NationStates Jolt Archive

Asia Toll Nears 77,000 As Aid Arrives (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20041229/ap_on_re_as/quake_tsunami) (AP) - Cargo planes touched down with aid Wednesday, bearing everything from lentils to water purifiers to help survivors facing the threat of epidemic after this week's quake-tsunami catastrophe. The first Indonesian military teams reached the devastated west coast of Sumatra island, finding thousands of bodies and increasing the death toll across 12 nations to nearly 77,000. The international Red Cross warned that the toll could eventually surpass 100,000.

Or just doesn't care...

that's just about the same level of proofness as the Lady of Guadalupe thing.

Exactly. What did those people do to deserve that kind of sh*t? Caring, benevolent God my ass.

No, this is actually an expression of god's love for humans in some weird way that I can't explain. After all, he works in mysterious ways. Also, he just gave those people an express ticket to heaven, and all the injured and those who lost friends and family now have an opportunity to take comfort in god's love and mercy. It's win/win!

Tsunami Death Toll Climbs To 52,000 (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20041228/ap_on_re_as/quake_tidal_wave_24) (AP) - Mourners in Sri Lanka used their bare hands to dig graves Tuesday while hungry islanders in Indonesia turned to looting in the aftermath of Asia's devastating tsunamis. Thousands more bodies were found in Indonesia, dramatically increasing the death toll across 11 nations to more than 52,000. Indonesia's Health Ministry said in a statement that 27,178 people were confirmed killed on Sumatra island, the territory closest to the epicenter of Sunday's earthquake, which sent a giant tsunami rolling across the Indian Ocean.

Harumph. For a moment there I was elated because someone might have an argument against God's existence that I hadn't seen before.

I shouldn't get my hopes up like that. :(

Or maybe it was just those people's time to go.

The Problem of Evil in theology has always interested me, if there is a Good All-Powerful God who loves humanity , why does this God continuelly let evil happen to His beloved creation? And why does this God condemn these poor misguided humans to an eternity of suffering for the misdeeds or rather the unbelief they had in a finite life?

Ok, I'm an atheist, but an agnostic scientist friend said this (he doesn't believe God is omnipotent)

God was here first, he created the world, he created it with his own limits, those he must obey, that being light speed, nothing can go faster (perhaps). God knows about all our troubles, and wants to help, but he's a long way away, and is coming as fast as he can, it's just going take him a while.

Yes, I referred to him as a male, but if he exists, which he doesn't he's gender relative, I'm a man.

Anyway, I like the Douglas Adams proof that god doesn't exist, we have miraculous beings, that couldn't be here by chance, therefore we have proof god exists, but proof denies faith, without faith God is nothing, God doesn't exist.

The Problem of Evil in theology has always interested me, if there is a Good All-Powerful God who loves humanity , why does this God continuelly let evil happen to His beloved creation? And why does this God condemn these poor misguided human to an eternity of suffering for the misdeeds or rather the unbelief they had in a finite life?


God doesn't live our lives for us, and he's not going to stop bad things from happening to us. What would be the point of life if we didn't learn from hardship? Oh wait, people like you want God to make life 100% perfect for them. Isn't that what the afterlife is for, as a reward for putting up with shit in this life?

God is just a really. really big fan of The Sims. We are all a big online game.

God is real. He's just pure evil

God doesn't live our lives for us, and he's not going to stop bad things from happening to us. What would be the point of life if we didn't learn from hardship? Oh wait, people like you want God to make life 100% perfect for them. Isn't that what the afterlife is for, as a reward for putting up with shit in this life?
Do you like the reality show "Fear Factor"? In it people have to put up with things like eating worms, being buried alive in a box full of scorpions and other fun things. Those that perform well get $50,000. What if an all-powerfull guy forced you to participate. You have to put up with a bunch of disgusting and unpleasant crap, but if you do well you get a nice prize. That's your description of god. Real nice.

I highly encourage you all to stop trying to understand God and God's ways. One of the main principles, or maybe the main principle of all religions is that God is all-powerful, and works in ways that we can not understand. God does things that are on a level that we can not even comprehend, and we should not try to. Everything is part of God's plan.

I highly encourage you all to stop trying to understand God and God's ways. One of the main principles, or maybe the main principle of all religions is that God is all-powerful, and works in ways that we can not understand. God does things that are on a level that we can not even comprehend, and we should not try to. Everything is part of God's plan.
So that explains everything? God works in mysterious ways? I have always thought that this kind of argument was pretty worthless.

Do you like the reality show "Fear Factor"? In it people have to put up with things like eating worms, being buried alive in a box full of scorpions and other fun things. Those that perform well get $50,000. What if an all-powerfull guy forced you to participate. You have to put up with a bunch of disgusting and unpleasant crap, but if you do well you get a nice prize. That's your description of god. Real nice.


Bad example. On Fear Factor, the things they make you eat are all considered delicacies in some part of the world. You may thing meal worms and bull testicles are gross, but to some people around the world that is their cake and ice cream.

Personally, jumping off buildings and performing stunts like that would be enjoyable to me, for I am a thrill seeker. So that example you made is totally bunk, because not all people feel the way you do.

Do you like the reality show "Fear Factor"? In it people have to put up with things like eating worms, being buried alive in a box full of scorpions and other fun things. Those that perform well get $50,000. What if an all-powerfull guy forced you to participate. You have to put up with a bunch of disgusting and unpleasant crap, but if you do well you get a nice prize. That's your description of god. Real nice.

Actually, the fact is that those that participate in Fear Factor are doing so consensually. We who exist on this planet never even gave our consent.

Or did we? Are we all in some sort of cosmic reality-television type game with our memories of consent wiped as part of the terms of the game?

We cannot fathom the ways of God. He simply would not think about things the way we humans do. So saying god didn't stop a tsunami because he didn't care is like saying a cat didn't prevent the murder of its owner because it was ungrateful. Just my two cents.

We cannot fathom the ways of God. He simply would not think about things the way we humans do. So saying god didn't stop a tsunami because he didn't care is like saying a cat didn't prevent the murder of its owner because it was ungrateful. Just my two cents.

Of course, the cat isn't a supposed all-powerful being. God would be able to stop the tsunami.

Bad example. On Fear Factor, the things they make you eat are all considered delicacies in some part of the world. You may thing meal worms and bull testicles are gross, but to some people around the world that is their cake and ice cream.

Personally, jumping off buildings and performing stunts like that would be enjoyable to me, for I am a thrill seeker. So that example you made is totally bunk, because not all people feel the way you do.
I have seen them eat live earthworms, bread baked with bile in it, and maggot milkshakes. They may be considered tasty in other parts of the world, but to the contestants on fear factor they are nasty, as evidenced by the frequent vomiting. The analogy holds.

We cannot fathom the ways of God. He simply would not think about things the way we humans do. So saying god didn't stop a tsunami because he didn't care is like saying a cat didn't prevent the murder of its owner because it was ungrateful. Just my two cents.
Yet we are constantly told by religions that god cares about us. That he wants us to understand and love him as he understands and loves us. They seem to forget that argument as soon as something bad happens.

No, this is actually an expression of god's love for humans in some weird way that I can't explain. After all, he works in mysterious ways. Also, he just gave those people an express ticket to heaven, and all the injured and those who lost friends and family now have an opportunity to take comfort in god's love and mercy. It's win/win!

I hope that you were not serious when you wrote this. If so, well read your bible once again. (the reasl one, not the one meant to attract idiots into god's ways of making money) God hates us..

Kthnx and death to the American empire.

I have seen them eat live earthworms, bread baked with bile in it, and maggot milkshakes. They may be considered tasty in other parts of the world, but to the contestants on fear factor they are nasty, as evidenced by the frequent vomiting. The analogy holds.


But those contestants do so willingly under their own consent.

Take a tribesman from Africa and give him pizza. He will probably gag or make a sour face. Does that mean pizza is gross? No, he just does not eat it. So you're saying that just because people in this part of the world do not eat those things that it is morally repugnant to do so? Typical American style attitude.

Yet we are constantly told by religions that god cares about us. That he wants us to understand and love him as he understands and loves us. They seem to forget that argument as soon as something bad happens.

you obviously don't know what love is.

This is such good evidence for god's non existance!!!!!! I mean, this is clearly the most suffering EVER- even more than was caused by the holocaust or starvation in Africa or Stalin's purges or anything like that. Those didn't manage to prove that God didn't exist, but with this evidence we can finally shut those damn idiot racist homophobe christians up at last!

But those contestants do so willingly under their own consent.

Take a tribesman from Africa and give him pizza. He will probably gag or make a sour face. Does that mean pizza is gross? No, he just does not eat it. So you're saying that just because people in this part of the world do not eat those things that it is morally repugnant to do so? Typical American style attitude.
My point exactly. Your idea of god is an all-powerfull Joe Rogan forcing people into a life-long game of fear factor, only there's no safety net for the dangerous stunts, and the disgusting ones often end up infecting you with a disease.

So that explains everything? God works in mysterious ways? I have always thought that this kind of argument was pretty worthless.
No, I just mean that we cannot understand everything that God does. It is absurd for people to supply this event as some type of "proof" that God does not exist. It just makes more sense to me leave it up to the one that has real power and understanding, God.

I highly encourage you all to stop trying to understand God and God's ways. One of the main principles, or maybe the main principle of all religions is that God is all-powerful, and works in ways that we can not understand. God does things that are on a level that we can not even comprehend, and we should not try to. Everything is part of God's plan.

Would those be the words you would use to comfort one of the mothers who lost their whole family?

"Oh well...God works in mysteriousways, we can't understand Him" , is that what you would tell her if she were to ask you "Why did this happen?"

But those contestants do so willingly under their own consent.

Take a tribesman from Africa and give him pizza. He will probably gag or make a sour face. Does that mean pizza is gross? No, he just does not eat it. So you're saying that just because people in this part of the world do not eat those things that it is morally repugnant to do so? Typical American style attitude.

TYPICAL AMERICAN STYLE ATTITUDE?

fuck off you chauvenist prick. i hope you fucking die. i happen to be an american and i don't believe that. what the fuck do you know about america? it almost sounds to me like you're toting the exact same self-absorbed, biased, presumptuous attitude that you're attempting to decry.

Anyone ever heard of the StarTrek Prime Directive?

Clearly God has. He gave us the world to do with as we wish. It's ours.
Do we really want him hanging around cramping our style and freedom?

Thats what Americans are for.

This is such good evidence for god's non existance!!!!!! I mean, this is clearly the most suffering EVER- even more than was caused by the holocaust or starvation in Africa or Stalin's purges or anything like that. Those didn't manage to prove that God didn't exist, but with this evidence we can finally shut those damn idiot racist homophobe christians up at last!
It's evidence against the existance of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god. If god's not all-powerfull, he can't be expected to stop needless suffering. If he doesn't wish people well, he can't be expected to care about needless suffering. Those religious people who claim the above two traits for god have to overcome the evidence against them.

Would those be the words you would use to comfort one of the mothers who lost their whole family?

"Oh well...God works in mysteriousways, we can't understand Him" , is that what you would tell her if she were to ask you "Why did this happen?"
I would not want to have to talk to one of those mothers, but do you think telling them, "well, now we know God does not exist" would make that mother feel better?

you obviously don't know what love is.
Oh, now I get it. God's love is like the love of a S&M master for his stable of slaves.

Yet we are constantly told by religions that god cares about us. That he wants us to understand and love him as he understands and loves us. They seem to forget that argument as soon as something bad happens.


Perhaps God lets things run their course because God wants us to be strong, not weak and self-reliant upon all powerful beings. Perhaps that is Gods way of caring? Perhaps God has faith in us as we have faith in hin.

Bad example. On Fear Factor, the things they make you eat are all considered delicacies in some part of the world. You may thing meal worms and bull testicles are gross, but to some people around the world that is their cake and ice cream.

Personally, jumping off buildings and performing stunts like that would be enjoyable to me, for I am a thrill seeker. So that example you made is totally bunk, because not all people feel the way you do.

Personally I agree with this. It's DEFINITELY NOT FEAR FACTOR worthy example. It's more like Extreme Makeover Home Edition to me.you put everything you have into the care of six (or in God's case, one) people and you have to have complete trust that they can do the job in one week, and viola! They've got it done and better than ever! All though I think God can make it happen a lot faster and without all the trouble and labor.

Take a tribesman from Africa and give him pizza. He will probably gag or make a sour face. Does that mean pizza is gross? No, he just does not eat it. So you're saying that just because people in this part of the world do not eat those things that it is morally repugnant to do so? Typical American style attitude.
:headbang: :rolleyes: :headbang: :rolleyes: :headbang: :rolleyes:

Perhaps God lets things run their course because God wants us to be strong, not weak and self-reliant upon all powerful beings. Perhaps that is Gods way of caring? Perhaps God has faith in us as we have faith in hin.
If god is all-powerfull he can make people strong without making them suffer.

I'm an Athiest, but in an effort to understand more about my fellow man, I did the whole Christian thing for as long as I could stand, 8 weeks. For me thats pretty impressive. Anyways I learned a lot about Christianity and I'm probably a better person because of the new Knowledge I have Gained.

One thing I did learn was that "God works in Mysterious ways" is Christians excuse for anything that goes wrong, quite frankly I think your all full of shit when you say this. However I respect your Decision to believe in whatever you want to believe, as long as It does not impact on any of My beliefs.

The best way I think I've heard the reason for evil happening in the world put is this
"Say your a parent, and your kid gets a skateboard for Christmas, and you know for a fact that while he/she is learning to ride it they will fall off and hurt themselves. Do you stop your kid from playing on the board ? to save them the pain of getting hurt ? No Of course you don't, because that would take all the fun they would get out of riding the board later after they have learnt from their mistakes. God works in the same way, we are all his Children and we have to learn from our mistakes"
I think that is what satisfies me most to this point about how "god" works. However this is completely irrelevant to me as I know he doesn't exist in the first place.
How do I know you ask ? Same what Christians "know" he does exsist.

Also for all you Athiests out there who complain that if there is a god why doesn't he make peoples lives perfect, well that can be explained by this.
If everything aws perfect we wouldn't be happy, why? Because you can't understand Happiness until you have felt pain and suffering. The Tsunami thats just happened, sure it was tragic, but doesn't it make you just a tiny bit more grateful it didn't happen to you ? And fractionally happier that your well off in you homes with roofs over your heads and a warm bed to sleep in ?

Anyways ... I've always been of the understanding that Knowledge of each other makes people more tolerant ad understanding, so for all your Christians out there or any religion for that matter, go be Athiests for 8 weeks, and all You Athiests .. go pick up a religion for 8 weeks, You'd be surprised from what you learn, and the more we know the better people we can be.

TYPICAL AMERICAN STYLE ATTITUDE?

fuck off you chauvenist prick. i hope you fucking die. i happen to be an american and i don't believe that. what the fuck do you know about america? it almost sounds to me like you're toting the exact same self-absorbed, biased, presumptuous attitude that you're attempting to decry.

LOL, I live in Racine, Wisconsin dude. Been here for 21 years. Yet another sterotypical American: if it sounds anti-American 'IT NEEDS TO FUCKING DIE!!!!111'

Of course, the cat isn't a supposed all-powerful being. God would be able to stop the tsunami.

How do you know cats don't have godly powers? Perhaps they do and they're just very modest about it. ;)

It's evidence against the existance of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god. If god's not all-powerfull, he can't be expected to stop needless suffering. If he doesn't wish people well, he can't be expected to care about needless suffering. Those religious people who claim the above two traits for god have to overcome the evidence against them.

He created man with freedom of choice- now was there not an summet of different asian nations a while back (i think about a year ago) where they decided that creating a warning system for extreme weather conditions across Asia would be too expensive as these incidents rarely happen? That's where the freedom of choice came into this horrible event. These people chose not to create such a system, and now other people have to suffer as a result. This is the leaders' fault, not God's.

It's evidence against the existance of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god. If god's not all-powerfull, he can't be expected to stop needless suffering. If he doesn't wish people well, he can't be expected to care about needless suffering. Those religious people who claim the above two traits for god have to overcome the evidence against them.

That is a bunch of bull if i ever heard it!!! God doesn't make bad things happen to people. It's the Devil that makes all that stuff happen! God cares about everyone in the world, but if they don't hsve faith in him then nothing can happen. And you'd think that people would think that God's all-powerfull if he can flood the world and drown everything except the fishies and Noah and his family and everythign on the boat in fourty days tops!!

He created man with freedom of choice- now was there not an summet of different asian nations a while back (i think about a year ago) where they decided that creating a warning system for extreme weather conditions across Asia would be too expensive as these incidents rarely happen? That's where the freedom of choice came into this horrible event. These people chose not to create such a system, and now other people have to suffer as a result. This is the leaders' fault, not God's.
One of the hardest hit areas was Indonesia. It only took the tsunami a few minutes to form, and hit the coast. No warning system could have helped them. So much for free will. Maybe god just hates muslims.

That is a bunch of bull if i ever heard it!!! God doesn't make bad things happen to people. It's the Devil that makes all that stuff happen! God cares about everyone in the world, but if they don't hsve faith in him then nothing can happen. And you'd think that people would think that God's all-powerfull if he can flood the world and drown everything except the fishies and Noah and his family and everythign on the boat in fourty days tops!!
Oh, I forgot.
The invisible wizard who lives upstairs is nice and he only exterminates entire populations out of love and mercy.
The invisible wizard who lives downstairs is mean and he kills out of malice.

Why can't people just accept the fact that this world sucks, and that has nothing to do with whether or not God exists? He didn't do it, so why blame Him?

Besides I could just as easily ask you why there is so much good in this world if God doesn't exist. What do we say when someplace gets a miraculously good crop year? Or gets saved from a drought? Bad things happening doens't prove anything more than the world sucks.

As I've said before god could just be a total bastard.

He created man with freedom of choice- now was there not an summet of different asian nations a while back (i think about a year ago) where they decided that creating a warning system for extreme weather conditions across Asia would be too expensive as these incidents rarely happen? That's where the freedom of choice came into this horrible event. These people chose not to create such a system, and now other people have to suffer as a result. This is the leaders' fault, not God's.
That's kind of like saying that since I choose not to buy a kevlar vest because it's too expensive, it's my fault if somebody shoots me and I die.

If God is truely omnipotent and omnibenevolent as people like you would have us believe, he could have gone the benevolent way of NOT making disasters with his omnipotentcy, but instead he goes the nonbenevolent way of making disasters with his power. Actually, if he was omnipotent & omnibenevolent, there would be NO suffering in the world. At all. He could have made us incapable of feeling pain, for example. And you may say that suffering is caused by the devil, but couldn't an omnipotent god get rid of the devil? Also, the Bible says that GOD created evil. God. Not Satan. God.

that's just about the same level of proofness as the Lady of Guadalupe thing.
You said it.

Nihilistic Beginners, please don't manipulate tragedy to further your beliefs

That's kind of like saying that since I choose not to buy a kevlar vest because it's too expensive, it's my fault if somebody shoots me and I die.

If God is truely omnipotent and omnibenevolent as people like you would have us believe, he could have gone the benevolent way of NOT making disasters with his omnipotentcy, but instead he goes the nonbenevolent way of making disasters with his power. Actually, if he was omnipotent & omnibenevolent, there would be NO suffering in the world. At all. He could have made us incapable of feeling pain, for example. And you may say that suffering is caused by the devil, but couldn't an omnipotent god get rid of the devil? Also, the Bible says that GOD created evil. God. Not Satan. God.

Here's a question though, if there was no pain or suffering on this Earth, what would be the point of living? Wouldn't we be more or less in Heaven?

You said it.

Nihilistic Beginners, please don't manipulate tragedy to further your beliefs

I am sorry but its how I feel, we all lost much wiith this tragedy, you might not be able to understand how we all lost here but I do. In the Maldives, whole people, whole cultures...all their stories, their history and myths...who they were is totally and completely wipe out like they where never there, I just can't reconcile how that could happen and there be some sort of good God.

It has been written. "Not a sparrow will fall without the father knowing. But the sparrow still falls."

Here's a question though, if there was no pain or suffering on this Earth, what would be the point of living? Wouldn't we be more or less in Heaven?
Exactly. A god who already knows everything, including the future, is all-powerfull, and loves his people wouldn't have to make them go through this crap. He could just create the ones that would have chosen his path, and place them directly in heaven. As for the evil ones, he could simply choose not to create them and spare them an eternity in the hellfire. That's why an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient god can't exist.

Here's a question though, if there was no pain or suffering on this Earth, what would be the point of living? Wouldn't we be more or less in Heaven?
If God was both omnipotent and omnibenevolent, there would be no reason for Earth to not be like Heaven; and nobody should be sent to Hell for sins commited on Earth(maybe some time in something like Purgatory, but nothing infinate like Hell) either way.

But those contestants do so willingly under their own consent.

Take a tribesman from Africa and give him pizza. He will probably gag or make a sour face. Does that mean pizza is gross? No, he just does not eat it. So you're saying that just because people in this part of the world do not eat those things that it is morally repugnant to do so? Typical American style attitude.

Not if I made the pizza ;)

Exactly. A god who already knows everything, including the future, is all-powerfull, and loves his people wouldn't have to make them go through this crap.

When are you going to stop blaming God for all of the world's problems? I personally believe that WE are in charge of our destiny and everything that goes on in our lives, and we are sent here by God to learn lessons and become wiser beings that will be one with the universe. I believe that before we begin our life on Earth that we ourselves plan out what our lives are going to be like and what we will experience.

Life is designed to be a school for the soul, where each of us lives out the lessons we have planned for ourselves in order to become a better person. In addition, the world is a place where God can experience all knowledge firsthand. Each person makes a "contract" with God to experience certain facets of life, as though we are the reporters and God, the Editor. This way a person grows towards the 'perfection' (not literal perfection, because there is only 1 perfect being) of their soul, and God gains the direct experience of that knowledge.

You may wonder, "If life is for learning, why is it so hard at times?" Simply put, it is only through adversity that we can test the strength of our soul. In other words, the pain of life allows us to really know, by direct testing, what it means to be a good and spiritual person, and just who we are and what we're made of. Is there anybody who can say, "I have never been lonely, I have never been depressed, I have never had grief, I have never felt isolation, I have never felt guilt"? Why have you felt all those things? You have chosen to feel it. Through that, you learned. You may say, "I do not know what I have learned, because I am still miserable."

The fact that you get up every day and put your clothes on and walk around, you have learned. You see, there is a marvelous fail-safe in this from God. You are not going to lose. You are going to get to Heaven whether you like it or not, because you made it so. So please stop blaming God for everthing that goes bad in this world. There are alot of good things out there in this world, but unfortunatly your pessimism is making you blind to such things, and for you blaming God is the easy way out.

God is just a really. really big fan of The Sims. We are all a big online game.
Bwaahahahahahahaha. Best answer. Ever.

If God was both omnipotent and omnibenevolent, there would be no reason for Earth to not be like Heaven; and nobody should be sent to Hell for sins commited on Earth(maybe some time in something like Purgatory, but nothing infinate like Hell) either way.

"Hell" is a fear trap. In the Old Testament, in Hebrew, and still to the Orthodox Jews, "Sheol" meant "to be buried." The worst thing even today for most Orthodox Jews is to die. Most organized religions ram fear of Hell down your throat rather than love of God, and that's thanks to their own selfish agendas.

You have all got to be kidding me. Ever think it was just a natural disaster? You know, "God" doesn't have to be a part of every world event that occurs, somethings things like this happen, it's called nature.

When are you going to stop blaming God for all of the world's problems? I personally believe that WE are in charge of our destiny and everything that goes on in our lives, and we are sent here by God to learn lessons and become wiser beings that will be one with the universe. I believe that before we begin our life on Earth that we ourselves plan out what our lives are going to be like and what we will experience.

Life is designed to be a school for the soul, where each of us lives out the lessons we have planned for ourselves in order to become a better person. In addition, the world is a place where God can experience all knowledge firsthand. Each person makes a "contract" with God to experience certain facets of life, as though we are the reporters and God, the Editor. This way a person grows towards the 'perfection' (not literal perfection, because there is only 1 perfect being) of their soul, and God gains the direct experience of that knowledge.

You may wonder, "If life is for learning, why is it so hard at times?" Simply put, it is only through adversity that we can test the strength of our soul. In other words, the pain of life allows us to really know, by direct testing, what it means to be a good and spiritual person, and just who we are and what we're made of. Is there anybody who can say, "I have never been lonely, I have never been depressed, I have never had grief, I have never felt isolation, I have never felt guilt"? Why have you felt all those things? You have chosen to feel it. Through that, you learned. You may say, "I do not know what I have learned, because I am still miserable."

The fact that you get up every day and put your clothes on and walk around, you have learned. You see, there is a marvelous fail-safe in this from God. You are not going to lose. You are going to get to Heaven whether you like it or not, because you made it so. So please stop blaming God for everthing that goes bad in this world. There are alot of good things out there in this world, but unfortunatly your pessimism is making you blind to such things, and for you blaming God is the easy way out.
I personally don't blame god for anything because I don't think any gods exist. As for the rest of your post I can respond in two parts. You say that you beleive that we make a contract with god prior to being born and decide what we will experience. That's pure speculation. One could just as easilly say that we reincarnate endlessly and have just as much evidentiary support. Namely none. Your second statement, that we come to earth to learn would be pointless if we had an all-knowing and all-powerfull god. He could create us knowing all we need to know. Because he's all powerfull the results would be identical to learning through hard experience. If he tried to make the knowledge identical, but it came out inferior you could hardly claim omnipotence for him, now could you.

LOL, I live in Racine, Wisconsin dude. Been here for 21 years. Yet another sterotypical American: if it sounds anti-American 'IT NEEDS TO FUCKING DIE!!!!111'

what the hell are you talking about? i guess you're such a brilliant sociologist that you can ignore the fact that this last presidential race was "close", or the fact that since you've been living in a small town in wisconsin for 21 years you nonetheless don't know everything about the country that spans width of a continent...thanks for your expert opinion, you fucking dumbshit.

now i know you're not claiming that you know ALL the subtleties of EVERY american's perspective on EVERYTHING...you're just claiming that of the "majority".

it's a good thing you know so much about the only (one of the only?) country you've ever lived in with such profound perspective...you know, for a second there i was thinking you might just be some layman dumbshit that has no concept of the amazing range of world views in this country alone, but due to the fact that you've lived in some jerkwater town in wisconsin for 21 years, i guess you really know what you're talking about.

GOD DAMMIT!!!

you give my political ideology such a bad fucking name...it's sick...it's weird how your amazing telekinetic abilities failed to pick up on the fact that i'm practically anti-american myself (i just don't make hair-brained generalizations like i have any clue what i'm talking about). i don't think people who are anti-american must die, i think stupid shits that think they're ominiscient must die. weird, too, how your profound sociological profile of america didn't pick up on anything even close to my view on it...i would even go so far as to say your little profile was wrong...shocking, i know, when we're discussing such an accomodating, perceptive, and capable living census such as yourself.

you have fucking pissed me off like no other.

"Hell" is a fear trap. In the Old Testament, in Hebrew, and still to the Orthodox Jews, "Sheol" meant "to be buried." The worst thing even today for most Orthodox Jews is to die. Most organized religions ram fear of Hell down your throat rather than love of God, and that's thanks to their own selfish agendas.
What about the other part of my post? Do you have a reply for that one?

You have all got to be kidding me. Ever think it was just a natural disaster? You know, "God" doesn't have to be a part of every world event that occurs, somethings things like this happen, it's called nature.

But then there's the argument that God created the Earth and now we have to suffer these effects of his creation.

"Hell" is a fear trap. In the Old Testament, in Hebrew, and still to the Orthodox Jews, "Sheol" meant "to be buried." The worst thing even today for most Orthodox Jews is to die. Most organized religions ram fear of Hell down your throat rather than love of God, and that's thanks to their own selfish agendas.

look at this fucking idiot...still going on and on with his brainless assumptions.. what are you, like 12? what organized religion these days shoves fear of hell down the throats of anyone? everyone's preaching positivty, IF you could claim that "most organized religions" are doing any one thing. yeah, dude, welcome to the great awakening...a few hundred years too late.

you're the dumbest person alive.

...we have to suffer these effects of his creation.

Shit happens. With as frivolous as this forum continues to become, that is the only response I feel is warranted for that.

The Problem of Evil in theology has always interested me, if there is a Good All-Powerful God who loves humanity , why does this God continuelly let evil happen to His beloved creation? And why does this God condemn these poor misguided humans to an eternity of suffering for the misdeeds or rather the unbelief they had in a finite life?

God said that humans where made in his image. That image is free will. Now if God stepped in and stopped everything, there would be no free will, or at least a very limited version of it. We react to give actions or situations, take away the situation and you take away the reaction, and you also remove the choice of how to react, limiting our free will significantly.
Then theres the simple fact that God has left us like this because of orginal sin of Adam and Eve, and that because we didnt follow what we were supposed to do we must live in a horrible world. Sure he is still there to try and guide us, but he isnt here to make life the best thing ever, that would show God has no will and cant carry out what he has started, which is not what God is. Know of course God saves people who truthfully believe in him, but this is normally because of faith against people who want to break it.

look at this fucking idiot...still going on and on with his brainless assumptions.. what are you, like 12? what organized religion these days shoves fear of hell down the throats of anyone? everyone's preaching positivty, IF you could claim that "most organized religions" are doing any one thing. yeah, dude, welcome to the great awakening...a few hundred years too late.

you're the dumbest person alive.
Let's try to keep it civil. Just a little friendly advice. I had my old nation deleted because sombody felt insulted by one of my posts.

I personally don't blame god for anything because I don't think any gods exist. As for the rest of your post I can respond in two parts. You say that you beleive that we make a contract with god prior to being born and decide what we will experience. That's pure speculation. One could just as easilly say that we reincarnate endlessly and have just as much evidentiary support. Namely none.

That's true, but that is a personal belief of mine. We will never truely know what the hell happens because we are alive. We'll only know when we're dead, so in essense it is all speculation. I do believe in 'past lives' however, and I believe that my experiences in those past lives have determied the course I have set for myself in this life.

This is another reason why I will never commit suicide. I tell myself that no matter what I go through in life, it will never be more than I can handle because I have made it so.

Your second statement, that we come to earth to learn would be pointless if we had an all-knowing and all-powerfull god. He could create us knowing all we need to know. Because he's all powerfull the results would be identical to learning through hard experience. If he tried to make the knowledge identical, but it came out inferior you could hardly claim omnipotence for him, now could you.

If we were identical to God and if we were all knowing, what would be the point of us existing? Serisouly, if there was nothing to exist for, no lesson to learn, no expericences to go through, why are we even here? What would be the point?

Don't make the false connection and say that because you are alive and suffer at times that God does not love you. There is no one like you. There is no one that is as unique as you are. No one will ever be. The Creator made you who you are, and made me who I am. Hopefully one day my soul will be one with the universe and as close to all knowing as possible.

I'm not going to ram this down your throat and make you believe in God, because I will not. I am not going to stoop to the level of organized religion, because they have it all wrong. You say you don't believe in God? That's ok, because God believes in you. That's why you're alive.

God said that humans where made in his image. That image is free will. Now if God stepped in and stopped everything, there would be no free will, or at least a very limited version of it. We react to give actions or situations, take away the situation and you take away the reaction, and you also remove the choice of how to react, limiting our free will significantly.
Then theres the simple fact that God has left us like this because of orginal sin of Adam and Eve, and that because we didnt follow what we were supposed to do we must live in a horrible world. Sure he is still there to try and guide us, but he isnt here to make life the best thing ever, that would show God has no will and cant carry out what he has started, which is not what God is. Know of course God saves people who truthfully believe in him, but this is normally because of faith against people who want to break it.
1 Free will. God knows the future, no? He knows who will use their free will and choose his path. He knows who won't. If he loves us all, why does he make both kinds and allow them to suffer on earth, and perhaps later in hell?
2 Original sin. So everyone is condemned to suffer because a couple of primitives ate a piece of fruit? Nice guy that god.

I have seen them eat live earthworms, bread baked with bile in it, and maggot milkshakes. They may be considered tasty in other parts of the world, but to the contestants on fear factor they are nasty, as evidenced by the frequent vomiting. The analogy holds.

No it doesnt, everything in fear factor involves fear, life is half and half, bad things and good things. The analogy dies.

look at this fucking idiot...still going on and on with his brainless assumptions.. what are you, like 12? what organized religion these days shoves fear of hell down the throats of anyone? everyone's preaching positivty, IF you could claim that "most organized religions" are doing any one thing. yeah, dude, welcome to the great awakening...a few hundred years too late.

you're the dumbest person alive.


Resorting to childish flames and trolling around this forum are certainly the mature adult thing to do, eh? :rolleyes: You're a bigger man than I.

Take the Catholic Church. If you don't confess every sin and give to the church, you will burn. Prime example. Organized religion focuses on your sins and how you must repent them or you will go to Hell. You also mustn't sin either, we must all be good church going tools and fear what the man in the robe tells us because he's a much higher person than I am. I need someone to tell me God loves me. :rolleyes:

That's true, but that is a personal belief of mine. We will never truely know what the hell happens because we are alive. We'll only know when we're dead, so in essense it is all speculation. I do believe in 'past lives' however, and I believe that my experiences in those past lives have determied the course I have set for myself in this life.

This is another reason why I will never commit suicide. I tell myself that no matter what I go through in life, it will never be more than I can handle because I have made it so.



If we were identical to God and if we were all knowing, what would be the point of us existing? Serisouly, if there was nothing to exist for, no lesson to learn, no expericences to go through, why are we even here? What would be the point?

Don't make the false connection and say that because you are alive and suffer at times that God does not love you. There is no one like you. There is no one that is as unique as you are. No one will ever be. The Creator made you who you are, and made me who I am. Hopefully one day my soul will be one with the universe and as close to all knowing as possible.

I'm not going to ram this down your throat and make you believe in God, because I will not. I am not going to stoop to the level of organized religion, because they have it all wrong. You say you don't believe in God? That's ok, because God believes in you. That's why you're alive.
I don't think your reply to my second point holds water. God needn't make us all-knowing. After all, nobody ends up all-knowing at the end of a lifetime. He could teach us the lessons we would have learned in the course of a lifetime of suffering in the blink of an eye with no pain if he was omnipotent. If god made you for a purpose why is the process of making you so long and arduous? Unless pain is the point. Then you are left with a god who purposely inflicts pain for pain's sake.

1 Free will. God knows the future, no? He knows who will use their free will and choose his path. He knows who won't. If he loves us all, why does he make both kinds and allow them to suffer on earth, and perhaps later in hell?
2 Original sin. So everyone is condemned to suffer because a couple of primitives ate a piece of fruit? Nice guy that god.

Yes they are, why? The fruit contained knowlegde, we were no longer inoccence beings, we were corrupted, all of us. And that cant be with God.
Why does he create people who go to hell? What? We create people, its called sex buddy, and if you are some evil person like Hitler, thats your fault! Its not Gods, and you deserve to go to Hell, we have the will to help ourselves, some never use it.

1 Free will. God knows the future, no? He knows who will use their free will and choose his path. He knows who won't. If he loves us all, why does he make both kinds and allow them to suffer on earth, and perhaps later in hell?
2 Original sin. So everyone is condemned to suffer because a couple of primitives ate a piece of fruit? Nice guy that god.

Oh yes, add in the fact God didnt create Hell, and that God doesnt send you there and your whole theory falls apart. (God doesnt push you towards hell, the devil does.)

Oh yes, add in the fact God didnt create Hell, and that God doesnt send you there and your whole theory falls apart. (God doesnt push you towards hell, the devil does.)

Wait Im sorry, not the devil, people usually. Due to orginal sin.

A horrible catastrophe. Now stop trying to say all those people died because some entity wanted them to. That's just plain cold. :mad:

Look, thousands upon thousands of people are dead. Let's mourn them instead of degrading that, too, into a religious debate (which are all pointless, seeing people should be allowed to believe whatever the H*** they want, as long as it doesn't hurt too many people :p ).

:(

Here's my philosophy as an independent-minded Christian: God is an eternal deity who has the capacity to craft and create worlds, to create a universe that man could never possibly completely traverse, in the space of a week. Do those of you who reject the idea that we cannot understand His ways truly believe that an all-powerful being has the same level of thought as a lowly human being? As a believer I am inclined to think that God is beyond the capable intelligence level of human beings. We may as well ask the ants in the soil to explain to us why sometimes a mean kid comes by and stomps on them, or the lab mice to themselves explain why they are being used for experimentation. Granted, these are negative examples portraying mankind as exploiting levels of life lower than it, but this is intended to show that lower levels of life cannot grasp the thinking of creatures higher than they, benevolent or malevolent. Taking one example of a horrible occurrence as proof of the lack of God, or at least the benevolence of God, is flawed thought because worse events have occurred. Followers of Christ at the time of his death may as well have renounced God for the horrible loss of their mentor, and medieval clergy during the Black Death that killed off a third of Europe may as well have forgotten their God in the torment of pandemic. The point is, if a single event or even broad scope of events is indicative of the proof that the Creator does not exist or does not care, we would have long since abandoned religion. For monotheists the Supreme Being represents an ideal of life to which they aspire to please, and despite well publicized "holy wars" of the supposedly religious, all of you aetheists should be happy that the majority of the religious people in the world have an ideal of life, a universal set of beliefs to turn to that are benevolent for society. You can quote Hammurabi or some early philosophers, but it was most importantly religion that crafted civilized society with its laws of conduct, and those who are truly religious are less likely to act immorally because of not only a legal but a spiritual deterrent. Sorry for my outburst. I'm just trying to argue for the case of Christianity and religion in general as a positive good in society.

I don't think your reply to my second point holds water. God needn't make us all-knowing. After all, nobody ends up all-knowing at the end of a lifetime.

How do you know? And for that matter, how do I know? What if after a certain number of 'lives' we end up being perfect beings ourselves? What if nothing happens at all? What if we spend the rest of eternity in a pit of fire because there is no God, only Satan? I have no freakin' clue bro, all I can do is live a good life as best I can and contribute to mankind as best I can and hope for the best.


He could teach us the lessons we would have learned in the course of a lifetime of suffering in the blink of an eye with no pain if he was omnipotent. If god made you for a purpose why is the process of making you so long and arduous? Unless pain is the point. Then you are left with a god who purposely inflicts pain for pain's sake.


Yeah, he could, but obviously he hasn't. There must be a reason why we were put on this Earth, but why waste time trying to figure that out? We will never know until we end up in Heaven, Shangi La, Valhalla, The Other Side, or whatever the hell you choose to call it. And as I said before, I do not belive it is God that inflicts pain, but rather ourselves. Nobody ever learned anything by having shit spoon fed to them, you learn through adversity and hard work. If we didn't experience pain for ourselves, such as touching a hot burner on a stove when you're a kid, how would we ever learn anything? People can tell you the burner is hot all they want, but as a kid you don't care and you do it anyways. From that point on, you learn damn well not to touch the burner. Such is life, and it's not God's fault, it's our own.

Truly, there's a GOD, whether anyone's able to comprehend it or not. In addition, he really is a loving GOD.

All I can say is the fact that you need to know what truth is. If you want to know what the truth is and yearn ton know what it is, it'll come to you. Otherwise, nobody, not even the pope himself, is able to explain what Truth is.

For everyone out there, you morons forgot Satan. When there's good, you'll always have evil in the area. You're better off cursing him than GOD.

First, if the Judeo-christian God exists, he/she/it created "evil". Here's why according to that theology:
God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.
God created perfect beings without free will (angels). If these were inperfect then they would be capable of sin which they weren't because sins didn't exist (except for lucifer-see below)
God created hubris inside Lucifer (if he didn't create hubris then where did it come from? did it spontaneously form out of nothing without God's will or knowledge? This is impossible if God is omniscient and omnipotent)
God, being omniscient, knew what Lucifer would do yet he did not stop him.
God created Lucifer. Lucifer created evil. God knew about evil yet didn't stop it. Therefor God allowed evil to be created by his own will. Since nothing happens without God's will, evil is God's will.
Secondly,
Why does an omniscient/omnipotent/omnibenevolent being needs to create something? out of boredom? Did God created the universe as his playground and us humans as his playthings? Or is god like a selfish human who desires and needs love but when he doesn't get it he discards his creation aside? Why does such a powerful being demand love and worship from creatures inferior to himself? Doesn't that sound petty and tyrannical? And why are we meant to follow his rules set for us when he's omnibenevolent and we supposedly have free will? Lets analyze the notion of free will for a moment.
God is omniscient. Yet we supposedly have free will. If god knows our actions (since he is omniscient) then how can we truely have free will? God knows what each and every person/soul in the entire universe is going to do up until the end of their lives (and even beyond the grave). It is true we don't know our own destinies but god does, thus the notion of free will is only an illusion perpetrated by God.

I'm an agnostic. I neither accept nor deny the existence of God because it is impossible to understand a paradoxal being (and he would have to be paradoxal if he existed for the reasons I gave above and more). My points/questions are to provoke thought and not blind dismissal.

1 Free will. God knows the future, no? He knows who will use their free will and choose his path. He knows who won't. If he loves us all, why does he make both kinds and allow them to suffer on earth, and perhaps later in hell?
2 Original sin. So everyone is condemned to suffer because a couple of primitives ate a piece of fruit? Nice guy that god.

I'm not so sure that anyone can find original sin in either the Old or New Testament? Perhaps the original poster could share the reference.

No, this is actually an expression of god's love for humans in some weird way that I can't explain. After all, he works in mysterious ways. Also, he just gave those people an express ticket to heaven, and all the injured and those who lost friends and family now have an opportunity to take comfort in god's love and mercy. It's win/win!

LMAO :D :D :D

Resorting to childish flames and trolling around this forum are certainly the mature adult thing to do, eh? :rolleyes: You're a bigger man than I.

Take the Catholic Church. If you don't confess every sin and give to the church, you will burn. Prime example. Organized religion focuses on your sins and how you must repent them or you will go to Hell. You also mustn't sin either, we must all be good church going tools and fear what the man in the robe tells us because he's a much higher person than I am. I need someone to tell me God loves me. :rolleyes:

you're just so outrageously stupid.

that's not what the catholic church "shoves down people's throats"...i've got a feeling this next point i'm about to make is going to be missed by you if this debate continues any further. my point is that catholicism doesn't emphasize that part...people are a part of the catholic church (and basically most churches) because of the hope it provides...anyway, at least every catholic (and every practicing christian, too) i know does it for that reason...hell is more or less regarded as "the dark side" of the religion, a taboo subject.

maybe it's because i grew up lutheran, but no one in my experience has ever been eager to tell me to fear hell...

You can quote Hammurabi or some early philosophers, but it was most importantly religion that crafted civilized society with its laws of conduct, and those who are truly religious are less likely to act immorally because of not only a legal but a spiritual deterrent. .

I disagree with you wholeheartedly on this. Society is based on a code of ethics deemed to be right or wrong within a certain population. Stoning a woman who had sex out of wedlock is still legally and ethically acceptable in some societies in the middle east. Are they amoral for this belief? In our society yes but not in theirs. What YOU define as moral or right doesn't mean it is an absolute truth and that every human being must abide by the standards you set. 1000 years ago it was legally and ethically right to rape jewish women and burn/masacre pagans because they were viewed as subhuman (they were viewed as inferior to christans). Today this is considered horrible and appauling but in the medieval era this was common practice.
I will also argue that the world has believed longer in polytheism than monotheism. Religion in general has evolved over time and I am not arrogant enough to know what it will evolve to next. But to say christianity is somehow right because it has survived 2000 years is being arrogant because other religions have survived 1000-3000 years longer than christianity (Egyptian, Buddism, and Hiduism to name a few).

I disagree with you wholeheartedly on this. Society is based on a code of ethics deemed to be right or wrong within a certain population. Stoning a woman who had sex out of wedlock is still legally and ethically acceptable in some societies in the middle east. Are they amoral for this belief? In our society yes but not in theirs. What YOU define as moral or right doesn't mean it is an absolute truth and that every human being must abide by the standards you set. 1000 years ago it was legally and ethically right to rape jewish women and burn/masacre pagans because they were viewed as subhuman (they were viewed as inferior to christans). Today this is considered horrible and appauling but in the medieval era this was common practice.
I will also argue that the world has believed longer in polytheism than monotheism. Religion in general has evolved over time and I am not arrogant enough to know what it will evolve to next. But to say christianity is somehow right because it has survived 2000 years is being arrogant because other religions have survived 1000-3000 years longer than christianity (Egyptian, Buddism, and Hiduism to name a few).


That is indeed a good post with a valid point.

you're just so outrageously stupid.

that's not what the catholic church "shoves down people's throats"...i've got a feeling this next point i'm about to make is going to be missed by you if this debate continues any further. my point is that catholicism doesn't emphasize that part...people are a part of the catholic church (and basically most churches) because of the hope it provides...anyway, at least every catholic (and every practicing christian, too) i know does it for that reason...hell is more or less regarded as "the dark side" of the religion, a taboo subject.

maybe it's because i grew up lutheran, but no one in my experience has ever been eager to tell me to fear hell...

Maybe it's because you grew up Lutheran that you DON'T know what the Catholic Church "shoves down people's throats". I grew up Catholic, and was told many times if I didn't do what the Bible said, what God said, what my priest said, I would go to hell. I STILL have times when I wonder about the fate of my soul. This is the whole reason I don't believe in organized religion. I belive that a sacrament is a sacrament is a sacrament and a sin is a sin is a sin. HOWEVER, the same priest that gives the sacrament of Holy Communion to people he KNOWS to be "living in sin" refused to give the sacrament of Matrimony to my husband and I because we were "living in sin". Organized religion is fallible because it comes from humans. That is why I follow no organized religion, but only believe in God. There HAS to be some sort of force that created all this. I don't claim to know who or what did, but there HAS to be something.

First, if the Judeo-christian God exists, he/she/it created "evil". Here's why according to that theology:
God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.
God created perfect beings without free will (angels). If these were inperfect then they would be capable of sin which they weren't because sins didn't exist (except for lucifer-see below)
God created hubris inside Lucifer (if he didn't create hubris then where did it come from? did it spontaneously form out of nothing without God's will or knowledge? This is impossible if God is omniscient and omnipotent)
God, being omniscient, knew what Lucifer would do yet he did not stop him.
God created Lucifer. Lucifer created evil. God knew about evil yet didn't stop it. Therefor God allowed evil to be created by his own will. Since nothing happens without God's will, evil is God's will.
Secondly,
Why does an omniscient/omnipotent/omnibenevolent being need to create something? out of boredom? Did God created the universe as his playground and us humans as his playthings? Or is god like a selfish human who desires and needs love but when he doesn't get it he discards his creation aside? Why does such a powerful being demand love and worship from creatures inferior to him? Doesn't that sound petty and tyrannical? And why are we meant to follow his rules set for us when he's omnibenevolent and we supposedly have free will? Lets analyze the notion of free will for a moment.
God is omniscient. Yet we supposedly have free will. If god knows our actions (since he is omniscient) then how can we truely have free will? God knows what each and every person/soul in the entire universe is going to do up until the end of their lives (and even beyond the grave). It is true we don't know our own destinies but god does, thus the notion of free will is only an illusion perpetrated by God.

I'm an agnostic. I neither accept nor deny the existence of God because it is impossible to understand a paradoxal being (and he would have to be paradoxal if he existed for the reasons I gave above and more). My points/questions are to provoke thought and not blind dismissal.

You have a very long post and I won't try to answer the whole thing. I ask you to just consider the possibilty that Evil does not exist except as the absence of good. God did not create Lucifer, hell, the devil, bad angels etc. The religious writings that speak of those things are allegory, metaphor for the dual nature of human kind. We have a spiritual nature and a material nature. It is the material nature that takes us away from the path of understanding. Perhaps, these teaching from the Baha'i Faith will help.

The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm. The world of nature is defective. Look at it clearly, casting aside all superstition and imagination. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 77)

Maybe it's because you grew up Lutheran that you DON'T know what the Catholic Church "shoves down people's throats". I grew up Catholic, and was told many times if I didn't do what the Bible said, what God said, what my priest said, I would go to hell. I STILL have times when I wonder about the fate of my soul. This is the whole reason I don't believe in organized religion. I belive that a sacrament is a sacrament is a sacrament and a sin is a sin is a sin. HOWEVER, the same priest that gives the sacrament of Holy Communion to people he KNOWS to be "living in sin" refused to give the sacrament of Matrimony to my husband and I because we were "living in sin". Organized religion is fallible because it comes from humans.


Thank you Tiggergoddess. While I myself grew up Lutheran, I have studied other religions and know enough about them to know that I want no part of them. The concept itself is good, but human nature gets in the way. The Catholic Church cares only for it's own advancement and how you must repent or burn for all eternity. Is that why we were put on Earth, to live our lives in fear of God? No, God wants us to enjoy life, make mistakes, learn, and love him. Not cower in a corner for fear of making master angry.

That is why I follow no organized religion, but only believe in God. There HAS to be some sort of force that created all this. I don't claim to know who or what did, but there HAS to be something.

Amen to that.

I will also argue that the world has believed longer in polytheism than monotheism. Religion in general has evolved over time and I am not arrogant enough to know what it will evolve to next. But to say christianity is somehow right because it has survived 2000 years is being arrogant because other religions have survived 1000-3000 years longer than christianity (Egyptian, Buddism, and Hiduism to name a few).

If by "Egyptian", you mean the Ancient Egyptian religion, it's dead as dead can be. I'm not sure, but it probably would have died out when they got conquered by the Greeks. Even if it didn't, it definately died out when it got conquered by the Arabs. That's why Egypt nowadays is a Muslim country. :rolleyes:

Philosophy and the proof of God's existence
One of the most far-reaching consequences of the rationalism of the Enlightenment was the undermining of basic Christian faith among the educated classes. The effect was unintended because the project of many Enlightenment philosophers was to prove the existence of God using reason: Descartes and Leibniz assumed that God's existence could be rationally proved, indeed God was a necessary part of their philosophy.

There are many traditional "proofs" for the existence of God, and we will look at three of them: The argument from design, the ontological argument and the cosmological argument.

Traditional "proofs" of God's Existence
1) The argument from Design.
If you found a clock and examined the mechanism within it, you would probably think that this intricate mechanism was not the outcome of mere chance, that it had been designed.

Now look at the universe; is it possible that such an intricate mechanism, from the orbits of planets round the sun to the cells in your fingernails could all have happened by chance? Surely, this enormously complex mechanism has been designed, and the being that designed it must be God.

2) The ontological argument
God is the perfect being. As He is most perfect, He must have all perfections. If God lacked existence He would not be perfect, as He is perfect he must exist.

3) The cosmological argument (God as "First cause")
Everything that exists has a cause. However, there must at some time have been a cause prior to all other causes. This 'prime mover' or first cause is necessary to explain existence. This first cause is God.

Pascal's Wager
The French mathematician Blaise Pascal (1623-62) put forward an argument that would appeal to agnostics. (An agnostic is someone who believes that it is impossible to prove God's existence.)

His argument goes something like this: God either exists or he does not. If we believe in God and he exists, we will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven. If we believe in God and he does not exist then at worst all we have forgone is a few sinful pleasures.

If we do not believe in God and he does exist we may enjoy a few sinful pleasures, but we may face eternal damnation. If we do not believe in God and he does not exist then our sins will not be punished.

Would any rational gambler think that the experience of a few sinful pleasures is worth the risk of eternal damnation?

Kant
Kant attempted to show how philosophy could prove the existence of God. Unfortunately, for him his previous work showed that we could not know reality directly as thing-in-itself. What is real in itself is beyond our experience. Even if God exists, we can not know God as he really is.

For Kant the Christian could have faith in God, and this faith would be consonant with reason and the categorical imperative. Given that human beings have the autonomy to create moral values, it would not be irrational to believe in a God who gives purpose to the moral realm.

Hegel
Hegel thought that the God of religion was an intuition of Absolute Spirit or Geist. Hegel's Geist is not like the transcendent (outside of our consciousness) God of traditional Christianity. For Hegel God is immanent and when we have understood that history is the process of Geist coming to know itself it appears that we are all part of Geist, or God.

Feuerbach and Marx
For Feuerbach and Marx religion is seen as the projection of the human essence onto an ideal: God does not make man. Rather "God" is the invention of human consciousness. Marx also sees that religion is part of an ideological view that encourages the oppressed to accept their fate. As he says: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of men, is a demand for their real happiness. The call to abandon their illusions about their condition is a call to abandon a condition which requires illusions."

Søren Kierkegaard
Søren Kierkegaard (1813-1855) agreed with Kant that the existence of God could not be proven by reason. However Kierkegaard did not think that it was rational to believe in God, rather one should have faith in God even if this seems to reason to be absurd. To put it another way reason has no place in faith. God is beyond reason.

Kierkegaard is regarded as the first existentialist.

Nietzsche: The Death of God
"Have you not heard the madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place and cried incessantly, 'I seek God!, I seek God!' ... Why, did he get lost? Said one. Did he lose his way like a child? Said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? Or emigrated?... The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his glances.

"'Whither is God'? He cried. 'I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I. All of us are his murderers...'"

"...the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they to were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke and went out. 'I came too early,' he said then; 'my time has not come yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering -it has not yet reached the ears of man."

In these passages Nietzsche is showing the inevitable unfolding anthropocentrism (lit. putting man at the centre of the world) implicit in philosophy since Kant. If we view our existence through human categories, then our concept of God is itself a human creation.

Nietzsche is not simply asserting his atheism; he is suggesting that once we are aware that the concept of God is our own creation we can no longer base our religious and moral beliefs on any notion of a divine external reality.

In the period that Nietzsche was writing, the death of God was just beginning. Western thought was starting to face the prospect of a radical change in its orientation, and it wasn't quite ready to own up to it yet.

Kierkegaard and Nietzsche represent opposite reactions to the inability of rationality to give a rock solid theoretical proof of God's existence. Kierkegaard calls for us to embrace God even if it seems an absurdity, while Nietzsche says it is time for us to create a new mode of being, with human creativity at its centre.

The atheist existentialist Sartre accepted God's death and much of his writing is attempt to look at the human condition in a world that is without a prime mover who could have provided a basis and structure for the understanding of being.

The twentieth century
Anglo American analytic philosophers of the twentieth century have tended to agree that philosophy may help us clarify religious concepts, without giving us a secure foundation for religious belief.

Many people claim to have had a religious experience, to have experienced the divine directly. This experience is direct and is of a different quality to sensory experience or intellectual discovery, and therefore outside of the scope of philosophy.

The view that the existence of God cannot be proved or disproved by philosophy has not stopped developments in modern theology.

You have a very long post and I won't try to answer the whole thing. I ask you to just consider the possibilty that Evil does not exist except as the absence of good. God did not create Lucifer, hell, the devil, bad angels etc. The religious writings that speak of those things are allegory, metaphor for the dual nature of human kind. We have a spiritual nature and a material nature. It is the material nature that takes us away from the path of understanding. Perhaps, these teaching from the Baha'i Faith will help.

The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm. The world of nature is defective. Look at it clearly, casting aside all superstition and imagination. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 77)

Interesting point. But I was using the Judeo-christian theology as the basis of my argument which has evil spirits clearly defined in the Bible (and I realize the Bible is fallible because it is written by humans but I personally don't take much stock in the words myself). I personally don't believe in either "good" or "evil" because they are moral concepts that change over time. I believe in action and reaction above all else because this remains constant throughout religions, societies, and civilizations.

If by "Egyptian", you mean the Ancient Egyptian religion, it's dead as dead can be. I'm not sure, but it probably would have died out when they got conquered by the Greeks. Even if it didn't, it definately died out when it got conquered by the Arabs. That's why Egypt nowadays is a Muslim country. :rolleyes:

I realize that. I meant that set of beliefs survived 3000 years which is longer than christianity has been in existence.

Bah. I think that, if anything, shit like this proves that there is a god out there somewhere, pulling strings. It also proves to me that this awesome idea of a presense should be rightly feared and heeded. But after neglecting so many for so long, he should be worshipped and praised? Never.

Just more fuel for the fires, imho. "Tonight at ten! Murder, mayhem, and the macabre, courtesy of GOD HIMSELF!"

A supreme being would be all about that shit. I'm going to look into sacrificing a cow for some of these poor asian people. It couldn't hurt. Go pagans!

Yeah...

Why don't we just do the right thing?
Why not do the best we can do?
Why not live our lives and do no harm?
Why not project positive energy?
Why not help each other?
Why not live knowing that we have some purpose in this life and try to find it?
Why don't we live realizing what we send out comes back to us three-fold, so send out good and love and light and have that come back to us?
Why do we need some threat of a punishment from a "God" to live our lives with love and kindness?
Why don't we just BE?
Be aware, be alive, be happy, be free of all the guilt and anguish that comes with organized religion?
Just a thought...

To address the existence of evil:

To reiterate a point already made several times, evil is a byproduct of free will. Before the creation of humanity, God had innumerable throngs of beings who worshipped him endlessly. They were and are called Angels - they are little more than the manifestation of His Divine Will, really. They do as He says, they obey Him flawlessly, but they do not have what we have: Freedom.

God wants us to come to Him willingly. If you took a wooden puppet and made it worship you, would it mean anything? No! Worship, love, obedience - these things are only meaningful coming from a free, intelligent being. Angels are intelligent, but not free. Humans, however, are both. God made us to choose whether we wanted to trust in Him through all the trials we suffer in life or if we'd rather choose to deny Him and go it alone. Of course, in order to do this God had to create the Choice - had to create an option B as the alternative to option A. After all, what would be the point in Free Choice if our Choices are:


Worship God
Worship God


Therefore, God let Satan and the Fallen Angels rebel - because they had to provide the other choice, the Choice that would let humankind be free and able to come to him voluntarily.

For everyone who thinks God should just make everyone worship Him in a perfect world - He already has that. It's called Heaven, it's where Angels and human souls worship Him endlessly. This place is our trial, that we may compare the future glories of Heaven with our pains on Earth (or the future sufferings of Hell with our pleasures on Earth).

Why don't we just do the right thing?
Why not do the best we can do?
Why not live our lives and do no harm?
Why not project positive energy?
Why not help each other?
Why not live knowing that we have some purpose in this life and try to find it?
Why don't we live realizing what we send out comes back to us three-fold, so send out good and love and light and have that come back to us?
Why do we need some threat of a punishment from a "God" to live our lives with love and kindness?
Why don't we just BE?
Be aware, be alive, be happy, be free of all the guilt and anguish that comes with organized religion?
Just a thought...
YAY w00t!!! That is my whole point! "dances around" yeeeehaaaawww

I think in one fell swoop, 52,000 people may very well be able to go the afterlife. Christians talk all the time about wanting to rejoin God in Heaven, then they question God's existence because He does it in a way that's unpleasant to us. I don't get that. We learn and grow from our suffering, some people just got to go home, some who should have been taken this off this earth probably were, and we're upset at God for this?


I just want to extend my sympathy to the people who now have to suffer. Hopefull as human beings we can help those who need us, and that too shows God's presence.


Ge-Ren

To address the existence of evil:

To reiterate a point already made several times, evil is a byproduct of free will.

Do you believe god is omniscient? If you do then humans do NOT have free will. It is merely an illusion; we percieve our choices as unknown and as our own. Unlike God who, if you believe in the judeo-christian one, is omniscient and KNOWS what you're going to do before you do it.
Thus is why I argue that since the judeo-christian God KNEW about Lucifer's hubris, he ALLOWED evil to exist through his will.

I think in one fell swoop, 52,000 people may very well be able to go the afterlife.

That's not comforting to the families who lost loved ones to the tsunami. Besides, most of those people who died were probably hindu/muslim. According to most christians, they'll be burning in hell for not believing in "the savior". I'm actually surprised to see that there hasn't been any fundamentalist who came in and said these people deserved what they got for being heathens (just like what happened right after 9/11 when we had demagogs preaching how we Americans DESERVED what we got).

Exactly. What did those people do to deserve that kind of sh*t? Caring, benevolent God my ass.

God can be vengeful as well as he can be caring. God has planned eveything on that happened on Earth, and all throughout the universe. Maybe it was the work of satan. Think things through people.

Note - original quotted text abit reformatted

To address the existence of evil:

To reiterate a point already made several times, evil is a byproduct of free will. Before the creation of humanity, God had innumerable throngs of beings who worshipped him endlessly. They were and are called Angels - they are little more than the manifestation of His Divine Will, really. They do as He says, they obey Him flawlessly, but they do not have what we have: Freedom.

Therefore, God let Satan and the Fallen Angels rebel - because they had to provide the other choice, the Choice that would let humankind be free and able to come to him voluntarily.

The use of the term "Let" is is abit misleading. If, as doctrine dictates, angels have no free will, then the ones who "rebelled" did so because god wanted them to.

God wants us to come to Him willingly.

"Worship me, or suffer an etenerity of pain and torture."

For everyone who thinks God should just make everyone worship Him in a perfect world - He already has that. It's called Heaven, it's where Angels and human souls worship Him endlessly. This place is our trial, that we may compare the future glories of Heaven with our pains on Earth (or the future sufferings of Hell with our pleasures on Earth).

Of course, everybody sitting around and worshipping god may well be god's idea of a perfect world, but not necessarily everybody elses.

----

Actually, the entire idea of Free Will is abit of a joke in regards to this - I mean, god is defined (these days) as being Omnipotent and Omniscient (among a few other traits). These two, all by themselves, ensure that everything turns out exactly how god wantded it to. There's no other options.

By the very definition of the word "omniscient" he already knew everything every single humanbeing would ever do in all of time, before he did the whole "let there be light" thing. He knew you'd kick a puppy when you were eight, that you'd get in a fight over a girl when you were 16, that you'd cheat on your wife when you were in your 30s, etc.

With Omniscience and Omnipotence together, there is no chance that anything that happens is outside his control. He created everything, set it all in motion, and knew, before he did it, how it would turn out. Those two traits, together, make for an impossibility of error on his part.

If you have those traits then the word "random" goes out the window, along with "surprise". If he can't be surprised, then how can anythign be a trial? The very idea of a test or trial is that you don't know how it's going to turn out.

So, if you follow the standard modern conception of god, then you don't have free will, everybody and everything is exactly how god wants it to be, and it's all ultimately his fault for making the world the way it is. If he doesn't like it, then he should have built it differantly.

(Mind you, the biblical descriptions of god don't actually support the "perfect" conception of god - other points asside, he describes himself as being jealous numerous times, which really isn't very perfect...)

I probably would go to the "i don't care" way more than the doesn't exist...

God did this because there always has to be disasters that keep the population of the earth under control. This happened in the bible, too. Like the great flood, and many wars. They didn't deserve it, yet they died anyway

God can be vengeful as well as he can be caring. God has planned eveything on that happened on Earth, and all throughout the universe. Maybe it was the work of satan. Think things through people.

God's will is, the way he is described by modern christians at least, unopposable, and he knows everything. Thus, if it happens, it's his fault.

Why don't we just do the right thing?
Why not do the best we can do?
Why not live our lives and do no harm?
Why not project positive energy?
Why not help each other?
Why not live knowing that we have some purpose in this life and try to find it?
Why don't we live realizing what we send out comes back to us three-fold, so send out good and love and light and have that come back to us?
Why do we need some threat of a punishment from a "God" to live our lives with love and kindness?
Why don't we just BE?
Be aware, be alive, be happy, be free of all the guilt and anguish that comes with organized religion?
Just a thought...

That's easy to answer; these are against human nature. Most people are impressionable and susceptible to suggestion because they don't want to think for themselves. It doesn't help that in our society, individualism isn't rewarded as much as team work and following orders are. To top it off, most people are selfish. Sure people help others in need but they do it to feel good about themselves, to impress others with their piety, or to make sure they'll get to heaven. Most people do things to benefit themselves in "some" way whether it be spiritual, materalistic, or physical.
These aren't necessarily bad things because this is what makes us human. If we could do all those things you suggested then we'd have peace on earth. And while is good to be an idealist, you must understand that we live in a realistic world where most humans won't do these things.

I believe those that say that God don't exist are aethiests. Of course you wouldn't believe he exists because you don't believe in him! As for those that do, they would think of the tsunami as an act of redemption. There might be a reason behind but the God-believers can believe whatever they want for reason why God smited the humble island of Indonesia
-Bictor (Leader of Bictor Land) :p

With Omniscience and Omnipotence together, there is no chance that anything that happens is outside his control. He created everything, set it all in motion, and knew, before he did it, how it would turn out. Those two traits, together, make for an impossibility of error on his part.

If you have those traits then the word "random" goes out the window, along with "surprise". If he can't be surprised, then how can anythign be a trial? The very idea of a test or trial is that you don't know how it's going to turn out.

So, if you follow the standard modern conception of god, then you don't have free will, everybody and everything is exactly how god wants it to be, and it's all ultimately his fault for making the world the way it is. If he doesn't like it, then he should have built it differantly.

This is precisely my point. And if this god does exist, he created evil because he's omniscient.

Sure people help others in need but they do it to feel good about themselves... Most people do things to benefit themselves in "some" way

As well they should, I help others because it makes me happy to do so, not because I was commanded to do so but because I want to and it gives me pleasure...is that selfish? Yes it is, but I don't care.

This is precisely my point. And if this god does exist, he created evil because he's omniscient.

Or, the simpler version: "God created everything. Everything includes evil."

Tsunami Death Toll Climbs To 52,000 (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20041228/ap_on_re_as/quake_tidal_wave_24) (AP) - Mourners in Sri Lanka used their bare hands to dig graves Tuesday while hungry islanders in Indonesia turned to looting in the aftermath of Asia's devastating tsunamis. Thousands more bodies were found in Indonesia, dramatically increasing the death toll across 11 nations to more than 52,000. Indonesia's Health Ministry said in a statement that 27,178 people were confirmed killed on Sumatra island, the territory closest to the epicenter of Sunday's earthquake, which sent a giant tsunami rolling across the Indian Ocean.
What a lame cop-out on your part. If everything was perfect, there would be no need to get out of bed in the morning. Life is about the good times and the bad. If God stopped every tragedy, there would be no reason to live. Bad things make you appreciate what you do have.

Check out this article on the topic. Maybe it will help you understand.

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html

Keep up the good work on the board.

As well they should, I help others because it makes me happy to do so, not because I was commanded to do so but because I want to and it gives me pleasure...is that selfish? Yes it is, but I don't care.

I never said that was wrong. I said it was human nature. We're emotional creatures and usually do things to experience one of these emotions; regardless of whether or not they are positive or negative to others, we do things to feel.

What a lame cop-out on your part.

I can say the same thing about your imaginary friend. Whats lamer beleiving that life is meaningless or believing that some invisible guy lives in the sky and does bad shit to other people so you can appreciate how good it is?

Check out this article on the topic. Maybe it will help you understand.

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html

Sorry...But my browser has this Bullshit-Blocker(TM) on it so I just couldn't access the site.

If God stopped every tragedy, there would be no reason to live. Bad things make you appreciate what you do have.

I wasn't aware that God has been proven to stop ONE tragedy. And as for that last line, I suppose that can be true... When it doesn't happen to *you*. It's easy for you to say these things and feel vindicated when you aren't one of the 55,000 dead.

What a lame cop-out on your part.

not nearly as lame as "god works in mysterious ways" cop-out we've seen in this thread.

What a lame cop-out on your part. If everything was perfect, there would be no need to get out of bed in the morning. Life is about the good times and the bad. If God stopped every tragedy, there would be no reason to live. Bad things make you appreciate what you do have.

Check out this article on the topic. Maybe it will help you understand.

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html

Loose translation of the article: "God made all humans as sinners. Sinners exist to suffer. Therefor everybody will suffer forever unless they can convince him to forgive them of being sinners, by grovelling at his feet."

God expects people to ask him to forgive them for being what he made them to be.

This is somewhat similar to you shooting somebody at birth, them surviving as a quadraplegic, then expecting them to appologize to you for being such.

Or did we? Are we all in some sort of cosmic reality-television type game with our memories of consent wiped as part of the terms of the game?


Ever watch the series of Red Dwarf?

They had a video game where the players lived out an entire alternate life, and has their memories of their "real" lives erased for the duration of the game.

from that linked article:
Since "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence.

As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.

I thought all humans had free will? Yet god condemns us before we're even capable of "knowing right from wrong"? Don't we have a choice??? Oh right, he knows everything so our "free will" is an illusion. And how is it benevolent to condemn babies? This stuff is exactly what they preached during the medieval period to scare the masses into obedience. We're all " sinners and must repent or burn in hell" according to fundemental christians. Demagogs are as alive and well today as they were in the dark ages it seems.

this is why i am only half chrishtain. if god loves us why do we suffer.
:confused:
why do bad things happen to good people
:(
but what else would drive so many wars and conflicts other than faith :gundge:

why-can't-i-figure-this-OUT!?!?! :headbang:

The Holocaust is more proof.

Mourners in Sri Lanka used their bare hands to dig graves Tuesday while hungry islanders in Indonesia turned to looting in the aftermath of Asia's devastating tsunamis. Thousands more bodies were found in Indonesia, dramatically increasing the death toll across 11 nations to more than 52,000. Indonesia's Health Ministry said in a statement that 27,178 people were confirmed killed on Sumatra island, the territory closest to the epicenter of Sunday's earthquake, which sent a giant tsunami rolling across the Indian Ocean.


why do people even start threads like these.

I think god exist, but is to hard to understand its ways, I dont know why but I know He exist.

They say god is infinitely benevelant, but right after that they say that one day he is going to wipe out the human race in a horrific wave of war, pestilance, famine, and finally death.

I think that's a pretty weak definition of benevalant...

Yep, all the Christians are going to start their "God is mysterious, we must all suffer for our sins, blah blah blah" routine. Don't worry others, we know it's bullshit. ;)

I think god exist, but is to hard to understand its ways, I dont know why but I know He exist.

Wise words.

Bahaha.

They say god is infinitely benevelant, but right after that they say that one day he is going to wipe out the human race in a horrific wave of war, pestilance, famine, and finally death.
I think that's a pretty weak definition of benevalant...

remember... "god works in mysterious ways" :rolleyes:
(tongue in cheek :p )
and can someone please explain to me exactly what these smileys are doing? :fluffle:
:eek:

I find the initial argument is almost funny in a way. A 9.0 Richter Earthquake and 13,000 plus dead? It is a terrible, terrible thing. I hope with all my heart that those affected will be able to rebuild their lives, that the death toll stops, and that the other nations of the world will step in to help. But there have been far worse calamities. Stalin's purges. The Holocaust. This has been the worst earthquake the world has seen in forty years - but if it's only been that long there havee obviously been worse ones farther in the past. To argue that this event proves the non-existence of God is laughably absurd.

It's like the argument that evolution doesn't exist because it "contradicts" the bible. Enough scientific evidence exists to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that species change forms over time (although whether natural selection is the mechanism of this change can be debated). If there was an all-powewrful God, wouldn't it suit God far more to create in ways so subtle as to stretch the limits of the minds of his created? Arguments to the contrary would border upon disrespect to such a being.

Religion states that God is all-powerful and all-loving. Yet it does not claim in the slightest that such a God will simply wipe all evil off the face of the Earth. God simply turns, in small ways, evil into good. Look deeper than the numbers. Maybe not now, but when we have had time to take stock of what happened, we will hear stories of heroism, of sacrafice, of love - all in the face of danger, destruction, and fear. We will hear of the way that other countries looked beyond the narrow bonds of their own self-interest and sent help. It seems far more plausible that the love and power of an omnipotent God would surface in the loving actions of human beings in the face of the very circumstances that, at first glance, would create doubt as to his existence.

Think of it this way:

God is all-powerful. Meaning not only does he do "stuff," he creates standards. He creates morals. He allows you to reject him. If he really was toying with us would he allow you such freedoms? Do you realize that since he is all powerful, he can make the mass death of these people moral? And it IS moral because he has a plan for them.

I'm not trying to say God doesn't exist. I'm trying to show the flaws in you conclusions. Everything to you people is so black and white, but it's not. Everything works in a perfected n-dimensional puzzle. Every single piece locks in just the right way. We cannot comprehend the changes one little thing would cause. But nothing CAN change because there is only one place for every single happening. God has his plan and it can be no other way way because the way it is is the perfect way in the end. Maybe you feel like it is unfair but you are looking at things through your eyes and not his. He can see MUCH more than you.

Religion states that God is all-powerful and all-loving. Yet it does not claim in the slightest that such a God will simply wipe all evil off the face of the Earth.


you do realize they don't make that claim because IT IS IMPOSSIBLE? Not because of a god or whatnot but because of human nature as a whole. If any religion made such a claim they would look foolish indeed.


Maybe not now, but when we have had time to take stock of what happened, we will hear stories of heroism, of sacrafice, of love - all in the face of danger, destruction, and fear. We will hear of the way that other countries looked beyond the narrow bonds of their own self-interest and sent help. It seems far more plausible that the love and power of an omnipotent God would surface in the loving actions of human beings in the face of the very circumstances that, at first glance, would create doubt as to his existence.

Why do these have to be the work of god and not the work of human beings? Can we not point to the people's actions themselves and say humans are the ones who do those acts of heroism, sacrifice, love, etc... I think you really take away the true value of their works if you point to god and say "this is his will". There is NO proof that there is a god so I will not merely "assume" that this is by design.
Lastly, if we have free will, how is god influencing people to do these things?
I think it's easy to say "look at all the good that was done during/after this tragedy" because *you* or your loved one weren't part of that tragedy. I think it's almost comical when people say that a tragedy like this tsunami "brings us closer together". If THAT was god's plan, why do 55,000 people have to die for the rest of us to get closer? Is that the act of an onmipotent/omnibenevolent deity to kill off innocent people so others can benefit from their deaths?
There are just too many flaws in that argument.

Because so many people who believe they are speaking for God, are outlawing abortion, God needs to find other ways to balance the world's population.

Way to go you theological fundamentalist. Hope you're fucking happy.

Because so many people who believe they are speaking for God, are outlawing abortion, God needs to find other ways to balance the world's population.

Way to go you theological fundamentalist. Hope you're f*cking happy.

Maybe the world should outlaw "thirds" like in Orson Scott Card's book Ender's Game. That would help solve our overpopulation problem. Or god could keep sending tsunamis and earthquakes but I rather he didn't.

TYPICAL AMERICAN STYLE ATTITUDE?

fuck off you chauvenist prick. i hope you fucking die. i happen to be an american and i don't believe that. what the fuck do you know about america? it almost sounds to me like you're toting the exact same self-absorbed, biased, presumptuous attitude that you're attempting to decry.

Senseless Hedonism, THIS IS FLAMING-- and I see that your responses get more aggressive as the thread goes on.. STOP IT. You're warned.

Interesting point. But I was using the Judeo-christian theology as the basis of my argument which has evil spirits clearly defined in the Bible (and I realize the Bible is fallible because it is written by humans but I personally don't take much stock in the words myself). I personally don't believe in either "good" or "evil" because they are moral concepts that change over time. I believe in action and reaction above all else because this remains constant throughout religions, societies, and civilizations.

It seems if one looks at religions, cultures over time there are there are certain truths that remain constant and are valued no matter which culture, society or religion. The respect of elders, the protection of children, sharing of resources, no murder, stealing etc. And then there are social laws that do change from time to time because of the changing needs of society. It is the different social laws that make it appear that religions are opposed to each other when in reality each of these religions have been sent by God to help humanity better understand God's purpose for humankind. So if one says that the Messengers (Christ, Moses, Mohammed, and today Baha'u'llah and others in the past) is in reality the same Messenger in a new form. Just as if you different colored globes over a source of light the light that we see is red, blue, green but the source of that light is the same.

Yes they are, why? The fruit contained knowlegde, we were no longer inoccence beings, we were corrupted, all of us. And that cant be with God.
Why does he create people who go to hell? What? We create people, its called sex buddy, and if you are some evil person like Hitler, thats your fault! Its not Gods, and you deserve to go to Hell, we have the will to help ourselves, some never use it.
In response to the fruit part, then should we punish the children, grandchildren, etc. of criminals in order to be more like god?
In response to the second part, If god knows in advance that hitler is going to choose to kill 6 million jews, and start a war that kills more than 10 million other people, didn't he have a responsibility to stop hitler from being born? It doesn't negate free will, it only protects those who would be harmed by evil will.

How do you know? And for that matter, how do I know? What if after a certain number of 'lives' we end up being perfect beings ourselves? What if nothing happens at all? What if we spend the rest of eternity in a pit of fire because there is no God, only Satan? I have no freakin' clue bro, all I can do is live a good life as best I can and contribute to mankind as best I can and hope for the best.





Yeah, he could, but obviously he hasn't. There must be a reason why we were put on this Earth, but why waste time trying to figure that out? We will never know until we end up in Heaven, Shangi La, Valhalla, The Other Side, or whatever the hell you choose to call it. And as I said before, I do not belive it is God that inflicts pain, but rather ourselves. Nobody ever learned anything by having shit spoon fed to them, you learn through adversity and hard work. If we didn't experience pain for ourselves, such as touching a hot burner on a stove when you're a kid, how would we ever learn anything? People can tell you the burner is hot all they want, but as a kid you don't care and you do it anyways. From that point on, you learn damn well not to touch the burner. Such is life, and it's not God's fault, it's our own.
There needn't be a purpose for our existance on earth. I agree that we shouldn't waste time trying to look for supernatural purposes, but I think it's because we can't even find good evidence for the supernatural's existance. to begin with.

Truly, there's a GOD, whether anyone's able to comprehend it or not. In addition, he really is a loving GOD.

All I can say is the fact that you need to know what truth is. If you want to know what the truth is and yearn ton know what it is, it'll come to you. Otherwise, nobody, not even the pope himself, is able to explain what Truth is.

For everyone out there, you morons forgot Satan. When there's good, you'll always have evil in the area. You're better off cursing him than GOD.
How do you know satan's not the good guy and god is just an abusive parent?

If by "Egyptian", you mean the Ancient Egyptian religion, it's dead as dead can be. I'm not sure, but it probably would have died out when they got conquered by the Greeks. Even if it didn't, it definately died out when it got conquered by the Arabs. That's why Egypt nowadays is a Muslim country. :rolleyes:
The temple of set still exists.

Philosophy and the proof of God's existence
One of the most far-reaching consequences of the rationalism of the Enlightenment was the undermining of basic Christian faith among the educated classes. The effect was unintended because the project of many Enlightenment philosophers was to prove the existence of God using reason: Descartes and Leibniz assumed that God's existence could be rationally proved, indeed God was a necessary part of their philosophy.

There are many traditional "proofs" for the existence of God, and we will look at three of them: The argument from design, the ontological argument and the cosmological argument.

Traditional "proofs" of God's Existence
1) The argument from Design.
If you found a clock and examined the mechanism within it, you would probably think that this intricate mechanism was not the outcome of mere chance, that it had been designed.

Now look at the universe; is it possible that such an intricate mechanism, from the orbits of planets round the sun to the cells in your fingernails could all have happened by chance? Surely, this enormously complex mechanism has been designed, and the being that designed it must be God.

2) The ontological argument
God is the perfect being. As He is most perfect, He must have all perfections. If God lacked existence He would not be perfect, as He is perfect he must exist.

3) The cosmological argument (God as "First cause")
Everything that exists has a cause. However, there must at some time have been a cause prior to all other causes. This 'prime mover' or first cause is necessary to explain existence. This first cause is God.

Pascal's Wager
The French mathematician Blaise Pascal (1623-62) put forward an argument that would appeal to agnostics. (An agnostic is someone who believes that it is impossible to prove God's existence.)

His argument goes something like this: God either exists or he does not. If we believe in God and he exists, we will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven. If we believe in God and he does not exist then at worst all we have forgone is a few sinful pleasures.

If we do not believe in God and he does exist we may enjoy a few sinful pleasures, but we may face eternal damnation. If we do not believe in God and he does not exist then our sins will not be punished.

Would any rational gambler think that the experience of a few sinful pleasures is worth the risk of eternal damnation?

Kant
Kant attempted to show how philosophy could prove the existence of God. Unfortunately, for him his previous work showed that we could not know reality directly as thing-in-itself. What is real in itself is beyond our experience. Even if God exists, we can not know God as he really is.

For Kant the Christian could have faith in God, and this faith would be consonant with reason and the categorical imperative. Given that human beings have the autonomy to create moral values, it would not be irrational to believe in a God who gives purpose to the moral realm.

Hegel
Hegel thought that the God of religion was an intuition of Absolute Spirit or Geist. Hegel's Geist is not like the transcendent (outside of our consciousness) God of traditional Christianity. For Hegel God is immanent and when we have understood that history is the process of Geist coming to know itself it appears that we are all part of Geist, or God.

Feuerbach and Marx
For Feuerbach and Marx religion is seen as the projection of the human essence onto an ideal: God does not make man. Rather "God" is the invention of human consciousness. Marx also sees that religion is part of an ideological view that encourages the oppressed to accept their fate. As he says: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of men, is a demand for their real happiness. The call to abandon their illusions about their condition is a call to abandon a condition which requires illusions."

Søren Kierkegaard
Søren Kierkegaard (1813-1855) agreed with Kant that the existence of God could not be proven by reason. However Kierkegaard did not think that it was rational to believe in God, rather one should have faith in God even if this seems to reason to be absurd. To put it another way reason has no place in faith. God is beyond reason.

Kierkegaard is regarded as the first existentialist.

Nietzsche: The Death of God
"Have you not heard the madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place and cried incessantly, 'I seek God!, I seek God!' ... Why, did he get lost? Said one. Did he lose his way like a child? Said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? Or emigrated?... The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his glances.

"'Whither is God'? He cried. 'I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I. All of us are his murderers...'"

"...the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they to were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke and went out. 'I came too early,' he said then; 'my time has not come yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering -it has not yet reached the ears of man."

In these passages Nietzsche is showing the inevitable unfolding anthropocentrism (lit. putting man at the centre of the world) implicit in philosophy since Kant. If we view our existence through human categories, then our concept of God is itself a human creation.

Nietzsche is not simply asserting his atheism; he is suggesting that once we are aware that the concept of God is our own creation we can no longer base our religious and moral beliefs on any notion of a divine external reality.

In the period that Nietzsche was writing, the death of God was just beginning. Western thought was starting to face the prospect of a radical change in its orientation, and it wasn't quite ready to own up to it yet.

Kierkegaard and Nietzsche represent opposite reactions to the inability of rationality to give a rock solid theoretical proof of God's existence. Kierkegaard calls for us to embrace God even if it seems an absurdity, while Nietzsche says it is time for us to create a new mode of being, with human creativity at its centre.

The atheist existentialist Sartre accepted God's death and much of his writing is attempt to look at the human condition in a world that is without a prime mover who could have provided a basis and structure for the understanding of being.

The twentieth century
Anglo American analytic philosophers of the twentieth century have tended to agree that philosophy may help us clarify religious concepts, without giving us a secure foundation for religious belief.

Many people claim to have had a religious experience, to have experienced the divine directly. This experience is direct and is of a different quality to sensory experience or intellectual discovery, and therefore outside of the scope of philosophy.

The view that the existence of God cannot be proved or disproved by philosophy has not stopped developments in modern theology.
So many proofs, all of them inconclusive or downright bullshit. The universe is not so perfectly crafted or complex as to imply the existance of a creator. Random chance and the laws of physics can conceivably do it. Also just because you don't know the exact mechanisms of what created the univers doesn't give you the right to jump to the design conclusion. That's like not being able to find your wallet and assuming god took it.
Ontological argument? Cheap wordplay. No perfect object or being need exist.
Pascal's wager? Only works if there is only one possible god, one possible method of worship, and no tradeoff for accepting god. In the real world there may be many gods, who may be offended at your acceptance of one over the others. There may be one god but he hates those who embrace the wrong religion (do you know for certain which is right?). There may be no gods and you are wasting what precious little time you have on earth chasing an imaginary man.
As for the rest, they actually prove nothing. they are inconclusive.

God can be vengeful as well as he can be caring. God has planned eveything on that happened on Earth, and all throughout the universe. Maybe it was the work of satan. Think things through people.
Maybe there's no god or satan and it's random chance.

God did this because there always has to be disasters that keep the population of the earth under control. This happened in the bible, too. Like the great flood, and many wars. They didn't deserve it, yet they died anyway
God's an idiot then. He could send a disease that made the victims sterile without having to kill so many people. Does this idea make me smarter than god? Or is he just an asshole. Maybe he just doesn't exist.

A christian would say that the situation in Indonisia in fact proves that god does exist because it shows that the end is coming and Jesus will soon be returning. I on the other hand, think that things like this have happened before, and will happen again, not because of some evil force, but because that is the way that nature works. "We belong to the earth, the earth does not belong to us."

Ok here is my two cents.

Ok why would a God help those that are so stupid as to live where they could die?

If you build your house under an active volcano why would God say "hay lets help him out when it erupts". No He’s Going to Say "you know what I told him not to build there but he’s going to do it any way... and look when his house and family get destroyed he’s going to blame Me".

So these people that got hit with this Tsunami were living in a place that they knew there was a possibility that they could die. So they are living there buy there own choice. So why would God help them?

Ok that’s it that’s my 2 cents and yes I do Believe that God Exists.

How can anybody beileve that the universe was created by chance? It isn't realistic. Has a painting ever painted its self? No, a painter {God} had to paint { create} the painting { universe}.

A christian would say that the situation in Indonisia in fact proves that god does exist because it shows that the end is coming and Jesus will soon be returning. I on the other hand, think that things like this have happened before, and will happen again, not because of some evil force, but because that is the way that nature works. "We belong to the earth, the earth does not belong to us."

I'm a Christian and I wouldn't say that. That is how the world works. This is a main part of atheism if anything bad happens they always blame God. STOP pointing fingers!

How can anybody beileve that the universe was created by chance? It isn't realistic. Has a painting ever painted its self? No, a painter {God} had to paint { create} the painting { universe}.
The universe is not a painiting. It isn't supposed to look or act a certain way. It just ended up looking and acting this way. Like finding a rock that works well as a doorstop.

I'm a Christian and I wouldn't say that. That is how the world works. This is a main part of atheism if anything bad happens they always blame God. STOP pointing fingers!
Atheists don't blame god. They don't beleive he exists. I just think that arguments like the one being discussed on this thead are evidence that certain types of gods definately don't exist.

Why doesn't God just kill the damned Devil and get it over with? If he was omnipotent and benevolent, he wouldn't tolerate this bullshit.

Let's pray for the confused people who do not believe God exists. As for any bad event "proving" that He does not exist, that is just silly. If there was no death or suffering at all, then there would be no value to life and being free from suffering.

Natural disasters and the problems created by humanity are just that. They do not prove that God does not exist. Instead, they confirm that reality exists and that God created all things.

He exists, has always existed and will exist forever. God is good all of the time. Sometimes, bad things happen to people. This gives us a chance to help them.

So, rather than saying "Boo-hoo God has forsaken us," or "God does not exist," pray to God for Him to touch your heart. Pray that God will let you know how you can help people who are less fortunate than you.

Jeff - Hah. Save your prayers. I'm looking into sacrificing a cow.

Why doesn't God just kill the damned Devil and get it over with? If he was omnipotent and benevolent, he wouldn't tolerate this bullshit.

God's a sadist. He likes a little backtalk.

Let's pray for the confused people who do not believe God exists. As for any bad event "proving" that He does not exist, that is just silly. If there was no death or suffering at all, then there would be no value to life and being free from suffering.

Natural disasters and the problems created by humanity are just that. They do not prove that God does not exist. Instead, they confirm that reality exists and that God created all things.

He exists, has always existed and will exist forever. God is good all of the time. Sometimes, bad things happen to people. This gives us a chance to help them.

So, rather than saying "Boo-hoo God has forsaken us," or "God does not exist," pray to God for Him to touch your heart. Pray that God will let you know how you can help people who are less fortunate than you.
It proves that a god who is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent clearly doesn't exist. If god exists he's limited in one or more of those departments.

Jeff - Hah. Save your prayers. I'm looking into sacrificing a cow.

God's a sadist. He likes a little backtalk.

There is no need to sacrifice a cow. Instead, if you have a cow that you want to get rid of, take it to a butcher and ask that butcher to provide the beef to people who are hungry.

Another good plan for donating a cow would be to contact a cow salesman and ask him to give the proceeds from the sale to the United Methodist Church.

I will pray for you Pantera. As for God being a sadist, I recommend against tempting Him. He is forgiving. I just think it is better not to taunt the only all-powerful being in all universes and dimensions. And my same advice would answer the concept of backtalk. It is best not to tempt Satan, either.

It proves that a god who is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent clearly doesn't exist. If god exists he's limited in one or more of those departments.

I thank God that I am not as smart as you. Wowsers! To have so much in your brain that you can question God, or judge that God is limited in any "department." That is far beyond my mere mortal intelligence.

I will pray for you too, drunken commy.

There is no need to sacrifice a cow. Instead, if you have a cow that you want to get rid of, take it to a butcher and ask that butcher to provide the beef to people who are hungry.

Another good plan for donating a cow would be to contact a cow salesman and ask him to give the proceeds from the sale to the United Methodist Church.

I will pray for you Pantera. As for God being a sadist, I recommend against tempting Him. He is forgiving. I just think it is better not to taunt the only all-powerful being in all universes and dimensions. And my same advice would answer the concept of backtalk. It is best not to tempt Satan, either.

Well, it's also better not to tempt a little fluffy white rabbit with sharp, pointy teeth.

Well, it's also better not to tempt a little fluffy white rabbit with sharp, pointy teeth.

I concur with you. I would skin the rabbit and use its fur for the lining of gloves. I would cut his feet off and sell them to people who use such things for "luck." I would eat the rabbit. From the sale of the rabbit's feet, I would donate 10 percent to my church.

Goodbye for now, everyone. I must brush my teeth, shave and the like. Come Monday, my three-year break from work will end. That's all for now.

I concur with you. I would skin the rabbit and use its fur for the lining of gloves. I would cut his feet off and sell them to people who use such things for "luck." I would eat the rabbit. From the sale of the rabbit's feet, I would donate 10 percent to my church.

You really are a satirist....and a sadist,lol

There is no need to sacrifice a cow. Instead, if you have a cow that you want to get rid of, take it to a butcher and ask that butcher to provide the beef to people who are hungry.

Another good plan for donating a cow would be to contact a cow salesman and ask him to give the proceeds from the sale to the United Methodist Church.

I will pray for you Pantera. As for God being a sadist, I recommend against tempting Him. He is forgiving. I just think it is better not to taunt the only all-powerful being in all universes and dimensions. And my same advice would answer the concept of backtalk. It is best not to tempt Satan, either.

The smell of my cows burning flesh is pleasing to the Lord. I'm sure I could look up the passage if you would like.

Tempting him. Hah. Perhaps we're getting twisted here. I believe. I really do. I don't know if it's your God up there, I don't know if it's a Hindu elephant or a thousand gods of fire and wrath. I think there is something out there, watching and waiting. I posted before and said that I recognize and heed the power of it. I recognize my frailty when compared to the awesome power of it.

But after all of the horrors mankind has suffered through history, I'm supposed to thank this 'God' of yours for his grace and might? Why should I? Why do you, for that matter? In all of his infinate wisdom and power, he's just too busy, or too sadistic, to step in and put a stop to things that are so obviously evil. I'm supposed to be thankful? Please. I'll recognize that he's there, and he's got the goods, but will I kneel and say 'Thanks for your scraps.'? Never.

Again: Save your prayers.

The Problem of Evil in theology has always interested me, if there is a Good All-Powerful God who loves humanity , why does this God continuelly let evil happen to His beloved creation? And why does this God condemn these poor misguided humans to an eternity of suffering for the misdeeds or rather the unbelief they had in a finite life?

evil isnt juss around to piss ppl off and make ppl unhappy bcuz God duznt feel like dealing with em. its a test of faith, if u can go through terrible times like these with the temptations of evil evrywhere and still feel faith in God then you really do believe. if ur like the person who posted this and u juss give up ur faith after an incident of trial then obviously u nvr really believed or tried to understand God and wut not. "we bear our burdens for God as he beared his" my priest told me this when i complained i was getting ovr whelmed with work.

It seems if one looks at religions, cultures over time there are there are certain truths that remain constant and are valued no matter which culture, society or religion. The respect of elders, the protection of children, sharing of resources, no murder, stealing etc. And then there are social laws that do change from time to time because of the changing needs of society. It is the different social laws that make it appear that religions are opposed to each other when in reality each of these religions have been sent by God to help humanity better understand God's purpose for humankind. So if one says that the Messengers (Christ, Moses, Mohammed, and today Baha'u'llah and others in the past) is in reality the same Messenger in a new form. Just as if you different colored globes over a source of light the light that we see is red, blue, green but the source of that light is the same.

If this were true, why has 90% of all wars been fought over religion? As XTC once said,
"And all the people that you made in your image
See them fighting in the street
'Cause they can't make opinions meet about god"

Did you know laws punishable by death were placed against anyone who questioned church doctrine or church authority for over 1000 years? So many different types of sects/cults/religions have been persicuted throughout history (and this includes christians during the first 3 centuries c.e.)
And your first statement is flawed. The Chinese practice the act of infanticide. They value males over females and would literally leave baby girls on the street to die to exposer (luckily human rights have finally reached China but this practice is STILL being done in some regions). And I gave an example about the stoning of a nonvirgin woman in some middle-eastern countries to show that murder CAN be legally and ethically justified by religious means.

I thought 90% of wars were fought for control of land and power?

Ok here is my two cents.

Ok why would a God help those that are so stupid as to live where they could die?

If you build your house under an active volcano why would God say "hay lets help him out when it erupts". No He’s Going to Say "you know what I told him not to build there but he’s going to do it any way... and look when his house and family get destroyed he’s going to blame Me".

So these people that got hit with this Tsunami were living in a place that they knew there was a possibility that they could die. So they are living there buy there own choice. So why would God help them?

Ok that’s it that’s my 2 cents and yes I do Believe that God Exists.

This is both incredibly ignorant AND obtuse. Do you realize these people are poorer than a bum on the street in the USA? These people are starving because they don't have money, food, or clothing. You make it as if they had a CHOICE where they could live or if they had a CHOICE of where they would be born. Just because you have the luxury of living in a 1st world country doesn't mean everyone shares the same luxury.
And how can you believe in a god when you've shown impassion to those 70,000 dead people and basically said they deserved what they got?

evil isnt juss around to piss ppl off and make ppl unhappy bcuz God duznt feel like dealing with em. its a test of faith, if u can go through terrible times like these with the temptations of evil evrywhere and still feel faith in God then you really do believe. if ur like the person who posted this and u juss give up ur faith after an incident of trial then obviously u nvr really believed or tried to understand God and wut not. "we bear our burdens for God as he beared his" my priest told me this when i complained i was getting ovr whelmed with work.
Faith is the biggest load of crap ever. If god wants people to beleive in him. If it's so important, he should provide proof.

I'm a Christian and I wouldn't say that. That is how the world works. This is a main part of atheism if anything bad happens they always blame God. STOP pointing fingers!

wrong. They don't believe in god so there is no pointing fingers. And I, an agnostic, neither blame god for the rainbow in the sky or tsunami at sea.

Let's pray for the confused people who do not believe God exists. As for any bad event "proving" that He does not exist, that is just silly. If there was no death or suffering at all, then there would be no value to life and being free from suffering.

Natural disasters and the problems created by humanity are just that. They do not prove that God does not exist. Instead, they confirm that reality exists and that God created all things.

Wrong. I value life because it *is* fragile and unique. There is no reason to believe that god created all things so we can suffer and die, other than the hope of something greater on the other side. Bad things disprove the existence of god just as much as good things prove his existence. Which means god is unprovable.


He exists, has always existed and will exist forever. God is good all of the time. Sometimes, bad things happen to people. This gives us a chance to help them.


This is your opinion. Don't go claiming this is a universal truth because it isn't.


So, rather than saying "Boo-hoo God has forsaken us," or "God does not exist," pray to God for Him to touch your heart. Pray that God will let you know how you can help people who are less fortunate than you.


I don't need to pray to god to help people who are less fortunate than me. I help them because I'm a human being helping my fellow man (and it makes me feel good inside). It's called humanism.

The universe is not a painiting. It isn't supposed to look or act a certain way. It just ended up looking and acting this way. Like finding a rock that works well as a doorstop

that was an example. it's not realistic that the universe created its self. it's like my example about the painting the painting can't make its self.

that was an example. it's not realistic that the universe created its self. it's like my example about the painting the painting can't make its self.
But it's realistic that god created itself? Why one and not the other?

[QUOTE]wrong. They don't believe in god so there is no pointing fingers. And I, an agnostic, neither blame god for the rainbow in the sky or tsunami at sea[/QU

atheists try to disprove religions by saying that god let's these things happen so he's not loving or doesn't exist. that's pointing fingers.

[QUOTE]wrong. They don't believe in god so there is no pointing fingers. And I, an agnostic, neither blame god for the rainbow in the sky or tsunami at sea[/QU

atheists try to disprove religions by saying that god let's these things happen so he's not loving or doesn't exist. that's pointing fingers.
More like pointing fingers at a flawed beleif. If someone beleives in an imaginary friend and you try to convince him it's not real you don't attack the friend, you show that it's impossible for the imaginary friend to be real. Just like it's impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent imaginary friend named god to be real.

If you look at the world today it pretty crappy. Almost everywhere people are committing crimes against God and worshipping false gods. Man thinks he all powerful force and maybe this was God's way of saying He is still and always will be in charge.

If you look at the world today it pretty crappy. Almost everywhere people are committing crimes against God and worshipping false gods. Man thinks he all powerful force and maybe this was God's way of saying He is still and always will be in charge.
Maybe it's a random event and god is just a figment of your imagination. If god exists and wants to prove a point he could find a way to be much more clear. Like for instance a disease that painfully kills anyone who doesn't follow the "right" religion. That would send a much clearer message than just sending a big wave at a poor part of the world.

Maybe he didnt feel like doing that. Maybe he wanted it to be small (( well small in His eyes)). Even if he did unleash a diease i doubt people like would believe in him.

If you look at the world today it pretty crappy. Almost everywhere people are committing crimes against God and worshipping false gods. Man thinks he all powerful force and maybe this was God's way of saying He is still and always will be in charge.

So hurt the most powerless people in the world to show the most arrogant people in the world who is the boss...

Maybe he didnt feel like doing that. Maybe he wanted it to be small (( well small in His eyes)). Even if he did unleash a diease i doubt people like would believe in him.
If he can't make it obvious that it was him then it's a wasted effort. That would make the suffering caused needless. That would make god evil. You worship evil. Have a nice day.

I thought 90% of wars were fought for control of land and power?

I was being facetious with 90%. But my point remains valid and I'll give you a brief list of wars/conflicts associated with religion:

The Crusades (all 9 of them)
Bourbons & Huguenots
English & Spanish war
The Thirty year war
India & Pakistan
Isreal & Palastine
Isreal & Muslim world
USA & Muslim world (There is a Jihad against the USA)
Suez War
Six-Day War
English Civil War (that led to the rise of the commonwealth led by Oliver Cromwell)
Charlemagne & Muslim invaders
Countless of wars in the Bible-
(hebrews vs babylonians,
assyrians,
persians,
phoenicians,
hittites, etc)
The Holocaust
Stalin's Holocaust (even worse than the famous Holocaust)

There are literally hundreds more.

If he made it obvious then that would mean people wouldnt have to think for themselfs.He sends hidden messages that we have to figure out. Everytime some part of the world didnt believe in him he would have to make an appearance and kill them all. He makes them not so obvious so we can figure things out ourselves.

I was being facetious with 90%. But my point remains valid and I'll give you a brief list of wars/conflicts associated with religion:

The Crusades (all 9 of them)
Bourbons & Huguenots
English & Spanish war
The Thirty year war
India & Pakistan
Isreal & Palastine
Isreal & Muslim world
USA & Muslim world (There is a Jihad against the USA)
Suez War
Six-Day War
English Civil War (that led to the rise of the commonwealth led by Oliver Cromwell)
Charlemagne & Muslim invaders
Countless of wars in the Bible-
(hebrews vs babylonians,
assyrians,
persians,
phoenicians,
hittites, etc)
The Holocaust
Stalin's Holocaust (even worse than the famous Holocaust)

There are literally hundreds more.


Where is the British-Irish conflict...a religious conflict that has been going on for some 500 years...

If he made it obvious then that would mean people wouldnt have to think for themselfs.He sends hidden messages that we have to figure out. Everytime some part of the world didnt believe in him he would have to make an appearance and kill them all. He makes them not so obvious so we can figure things out ourselves.
Ok, he sends hidden messages that we have to figgure out. Some people interpret the messages differently and we get planes flying into buildings, suicide bombers, George W Bush's war on Iraq, Hindus burning muslims alive, etc. You worship evil. It's pretty clear cut. God's actions are causing needless suffering. Those who inflict suffering are evil. Have fun worshiping the prince of darkness.

If he made it obvious then that would mean people wouldnt have to think for themselfs.He sends hidden messages that we have to figure out. Everytime some part of the world didnt believe in him he would have to make an appearance and kill them all. He makes them not so obvious so we can figure things out ourselves.

Zack, this stuff just happens, there is no reason for it. Even Jesus and Solomon in the Bible say that...that calamity and disasters happen and there is no reason for it. Life is meaningless. You are looking for a reason or an answer where there isn't any.

You guys are mostly being very shortsighted about the problem of evil, you've got a lot of learning to do about "good" and "evil", more than I can explain, but "god works in mysterious ways" is a pretty good start. I myself am not a believer in god, but I still like a rational argument. Funny thing is the most commonly held beliefs (i.e. the cosmological and teleological arguments for god) are the ones with humongous holes in them. Read the Ontological argument by St. Antselm, its a good one, though it ends up creating the greatest possible doorknob, unicorn, raccoon, nail, so it brings the argument into question, but nothing more. The fact is that god is only as powerful as logic makes him, thus he can't think up a math problem he cant solve, etc...it could be that this god was just a world architect and is long dead, or that he is much more finite than we give him credit for, or that he doesnt exist based on the fact that he is governed by some laws, and that would most certainly include the law of conservation of energy which entirely undermines his ability, being an omnipresent being (in essence, a being of energy), to exert a force on anything physical.

Asis Toll Nears 77,000 As Aid Arrives (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20041229/ap_on_re_as/quake_tsunami) (AP) - Cargo planes touched down with aid Wednesday, bearing everything from lentils to water purifiers to help survivors facing the threat of epidemic after this week's quake-tsunami catastrophe. The first Indonesian military teams reached the devastated west coast of Sumatra island, finding thousands of bodies and increasing the death toll across 12 nations to nearly 77,000. The international Red Cross warned that the toll could eventually surpass 100,000.

You all wonder how this could be part of God's plan? My answer to you is, how could it not be?

Every bad thing that happens is not his fault. Things that are caused by HUMANS are there fault not God's fault because he gave us free choiceand if you abuse that free choice during your life you going to Hell.

If he made it obvious then that would mean people wouldnt have to think for themselfs.He sends hidden messages that we have to figure out. Everytime some part of the world didnt believe in him he would have to make an appearance and kill them all. He makes them not so obvious so we can figure things out ourselves.

if this were true (and there is NO evidence that it is) then god could be anything. God could be the sun. The moon could be god. Zeus could be god. Baal could be god. All the gods in all the religions could be god. Problem is, most religions can't accept this just as an athiest can't accept the concept of a god. Some believe all religions are right. I happen to believe that they are all WRONG. Buddha had it close though (you don't see buddists starting wars or suicide bombing) and his philosophy is very similar to humanism.

Every bad thing that happens is not his fault. Things that are caused by HUMANS are there fault not God's fault because he gave us free choiceand if you abuse that free choice during your life you going to Hell.

I think your right about the first part, but Hell doesnt exist. Its as state of mind. If you abuse your free choice as you said you will not go to Hell, but go through another cycle of death and rebirth until you learn what you are meant to learn.

Every bad thing that happens is not his fault. Things that are caused by HUMANS are there fault not God's fault because he gave us free choiceand if you abuse that free choice during your life you going to Hell.

Zack, what kind of loving God would condemn misguided people to an eternity of torture for the misdeeds they did in a finite life? Thats not justice Zack.

Thats not justice??? Wow so i guess for all those people who killed and did crimes in there life. Hurted others should still be allowed to have paradise in Heaven??

Thats not justice??? Wow so i guess for all those people who killed and did crimes in there life. Hurted others should still be allowed to have paradise in Heaven??

Again there is no Hell. If you dont learn the right way to live then you are not ready to advance to the next level of existance. Therefore, you will just reincarnate and live again until you learn. :)

Thats not justice??? Wow so i guess for all those people who killed and did crimes in there life. Hurted others should still be allowed to have paradise in Heaven??

I think the point is that even if you do terrible things, you can still be forgiven if you are truly sorry.

getting back on topic, justice isn't killing a bunch of people for making the perilous mistake of being asian (or in Asia on the wrong day).

It worries me that people (including myself) take this terrible event as an oppurtunity to argue theology :(

furthermore, hurted is not a word

I think the point is that even if you do terrible things, you can still be forgiven if you are truly sorry.

getting back on topic, justice isn't killing a bunch of people for making the perilous mistake of being asian (or in Asia on the wrong day).

It worries me that people (including myself) take this terrible event as an oppurtunity to argue theology :(

furthermore, hurted is not a word

Of course you can be forgiven but you just cant be dead because by that time its to late.

Every bad thing that happens is not his fault. Things that are caused by HUMANS are there fault not God's fault because he gave us free choiceand if you abuse that free choice during your life you going to Hell.
wrong. unless you think humans caused the tsunami. If god created EVERYTHING didn't he also create that tsunami that killed over 70,000 innocent, poor, and defenseless humans? Doesn't that make him malicious? Shouldn't he have done it against us heathenistic Americans to smite our "evil" souls instead of taking out poor souls who were defenseless against such an attack? This is why I don't buy the "god works in mysterious ways" cliche'. I could come up with better ways to show my omnipotent and loving nature than this so called god of yours does with his tsunamis, wars, and pestilences.

More like pointing fingers at a flawed beleif. If someone beleives in an imaginary friend and you try to convince him it's not real you don't attack the friend, you show that it's impossible for the imaginary friend to be real. Just like it's impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent imaginary friend named god to be real.

untrue. more like it proves that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God can't be understood by someone who lacks these characteristics. you.

not that that's a proof for the existence of God. yours just isn't a proof against it.

God is just a really. really big fan of The Sims. We are all a big online game.


i haven't had chance to read everyone elses view but this really has gotta be one of the best...

Yes i know its a terrible event, but how do we know the Earth isn't just one big PC after all we've only got as far as 12 KM's under the surface...

Hmm its to bad people blame GOD for tehre problems that they created. Honestly do you think he jsut decided to one day throw a bunch of death on people i dont think so he gave of our free will cause we acted stupid once and now we can trully understand how it feels to be b ourselfes lol. I mean comon people die we been dying for a long time now how is that his fault we screw up so much?

A lot of agnostics/athiests take the standpoint that God is omnipotent, caused the tsunami and is therefore evil.

We all neglect the possibility that God also being omniscient would know that this tsunami was necessary for some reason or another that we could not understand and that the victims may very well be in paradise.

How can we debate things that are affected by factors that as non-omniscients we could not possibly understand?

Thats not justice??? Wow so i guess for all those people who killed and did crimes in there life. Hurted others should still be allowed to have paradise in Heaven??
christians have been doing that for 2000 years. Just look at what's going on in Ireland to see it happening TODAY.
The only hell I believe in is the one you create for yourself on earth. It's all a matter of perception. Or, if there is an afterlife, the one you create when you die.

naw, what this is, is something called the Baptism of Fire; anyone heard about it?
well, it goes a little something like this:
the world is a bit too populated, and people are destroying the environment, and there aren't enough people going through with God's divine plan. so what is happening, is these people who aren't obeying God's divine plan are dying, so that they may be reborn to initiate it, and work off any karma they have.
~Teachings of the Mahikari Center
strange as it may sound, I am not Christian, and I may have been athiest for a term (surprise and shock!), but after listening to the speakers for the Mahikari Center, I find this god rather believable.
ergo, the tsunamis were caused by God.

naw, what this is, is something called the Baptism of Fire; anyone heard about it?
well, it goes a little something like this:
the world is a bit too populated, and people are destroying the environment, and there aren't enough people going through with God's divine plan. so what is happening, is these people who aren't obeying God's divine plan are dying, so that they may be reborn to initiate it, and work off any karma they have.
~Teachings of the Mahikari Center
strange as it may sound, I am not Christian, and I may have been athiest for a term (surprise and shock!), but after listening to the speakers for the Mahikari Center, I find this god rather believable.
ergo, the tsunamis were caused by God.

it's just a matter of stock keeping and logistics then?

wrong. unless you think humans caused the tsunami. If god created EVERYTHING didn't he also create that tsunami that killed over 70,000 innocent, poor, and defenseless humans? Doesn't that make him malicious? Shouldn't he have done it against us heathenistic Americans to smite our "evil" souls instead of taking out poor souls who were defenseless against such an attack? This is why I don't buy the "god works in mysterious ways" cliche'. I could come up with better ways to show my omnipotent and loving nature than this so called god of yours does with his tsunamis, wars, and pestilences.
I think you may have misread things. I said bad things that were caused by human hands not nature events like this one. Unless some evil guy created a earthquake machine or something.

At least in the Christian faith, God has placed more and more power in the hands of individuals to carry out works. So shouldn't the fact that people have responded and have decided to sacrifice their own economic well being, physical well being in order to help those that came under unfortunate circunstances be a proof that there is a God? Couldn't the existance of compassion in a world spiraling more and more self-serving, capitalistic, commercialized society be proof that something or someone not within our own understanding has placed at least an ounce of compassion in our lives? How can any act of logic explain the existance of humanitarianism, compassion, and self-sacrifice? It takes a scientist to be able to explain why an earthquake happens... what does it take to explain the entire world's response? Which is the bigger mystery? Which can you say absolutely why it happens? For me, this earthquake is an occurance of chance... the true presence of God for me is when the Red Cross comes in, Red Crescent moves in, the international community acts as a unit (for once) to come to the aid of the unfortunate, the UAE sends rescue crews, Australia sends its air force to drop aid. I feel that when even one person cares about the misfortune of another... that is as much proof as you need to prove God exists.

it's just a matter of stock keeping and logistics then?

I guess :\
I'm still learning about Mahikari, so that's something to ask next time I visit

I think you may have misread things. I said bad things that were caused by human hands not nature events like this one. Unless some evil guy created a earthquake machine or something.

if bad things happen exclusively because of people, and you're not implying that a human caused the tsunami, then you're suggesting the tsunami was not a bad thing?

I guess :\
I'm still learning about Mahikari, so that's something to ask next time I visit

sorry that wasn't meant to sound as sarcastic,
that's just how I interpreted it

A lot of agnostics/athiests take the standpoint that God is omnipotent, caused the tsunami and is therefore evil.


Well, if god makes the definition of what is evil then he can never make evil. Therefore, nothing in the world is evil since it is all his creation. And free will doesn't exist because god is omniscient and knows everything. And if he knows everything, NOTHING IS EVIL.


How can we debate things that are affected by factors that as non-omniscients we could not possibly understand?

Valid point. But how can you debate that this is PROOF of god's existence? I'm not an athiest (because I am not omniscient). But my arguments stem from people believing in something that can NEVER be proven one way or the other. Noone is omniscient so noone knows the truth. They might think they do but they're only fooling themselves.

At least in the Christian faith, God has placed more and more power in the hands of individuals to carry out works. So shouldn't the fact that people have responded and have decided to sacrifice their own economic well being, physical well being in order to help those that came under unfortunate circunstances be a proof that there is a God? Couldn't the existance of compassion in a world spiraling more and more self-serving, capitalistic, commercialized society be proof that something or someone not within our own understanding has placed at least an ounce of compassion in our lives? How can any act of logic explain the existance of humanitarianism, compassion, and self-sacrifice? It takes a scientist to be able to explain why an earthquake happens... what does it take to explain the entire world's response? Which is the bigger mystery? Which can you say absolutely why it happens? For me, this earthquake is an occurance of chance... the true presence of God for me is when the Red Cross comes in, Red Crescent moves in, the international community acts as a unit (for once) to come to the aid of the unfortunate, the UAE sends rescue crews, Australia sends its air force to drop aid. I feel that when even one person cares about the misfortune of another... that is as much proof as you need to prove God exists.

the bad things = chance, good things = God school of thought

Well maybe god wanted them in heaven, the best place ever.

sorry that wasn't meant to sound as sarcastic,
that's just how I interpreted it

XD no, no, I never interpreted it as sarcastic, and I will honestly ask. expect an answer for it tomorrow, then.
cause this is an interesting topic, and with what my teacher's telling me, the Baptism of Fire is happening quickly; humanity doesn't have much time left to become enlightened. and these disasters in Asia are just a part of it.
if you want more information that I can't provide, there may be a Mahikari center near you. I know their main office in the U.S. is in L.A., but they are in other places.

Thats basicly the same thing as the "God hates florida thing" which i thought was really funny

Valid point. But how can you debate that this is PROOF of god's existence? I'm not an athiest (because I am not omniscient). But my arguments stem from people believing in something that can NEVER be proven one way or the other. Noone is omniscient so noone knows the truth. They might think they do but they're only fooling themselves.

I'm not claiming that this is proof of God's existence, but rather something to support the theory that he might, I'm an agnostic (a weak excuse to sit argue for both sides at once).

In my opinion nobody has ever produced substantial evidence to support God's existence or non-existence as the nature of the debate makes it almost impossible to do so.

um im agnostic and say that whoever posted the sunami thing needs a ten times better argument. ok miss read the thing but whatever, from a god lovers point of view it could be seen as something like a flood to wash out some evil, or in the puritan point of view, they were in the hands of an angry god and just plain fucked up. so back to what i was saying... it'll take a miracle to make me believe in god. but i have heard a very strong defense for the fact that there could be a god. a friend brought up the fact that chromosomes are unable to reproduce themselves and therefore are unable to have formed on their own the first strand of DNA. that is a very strong argument, but not enough for me to believe in god. but i do have my own scruples about us at the begining of whatever. if we just formed out, because magicly atoms bonded and turned into molecules which in turn transformed into molecules of protien, and we are the product of eveolution, then i find it hard to believe that this was the only planet in our galaxy and as far as we know universe that was able to end up with the molecules needed to for protien. so yeah thats my take on this whole god and all that stuff thing if anyone else has enlightening information on this subject let me know somehow.

At least in the Christian faith, God has placed more and more power in the hands of individuals to carry out works. So shouldn't the fact that people have responded and have decided to sacrifice their own economic well being, physical well being in order to help those that came under unfortunate circunstances be a proof that there is a God? Couldn't the existance of compassion in a world spiraling more and more self-serving, capitalistic, commercialized society be proof that something or someone not within our own understanding has placed at least an ounce of compassion in our lives? How can any act of logic explain the existance of humanitarianism, compassion, and self-sacrifice? It takes a scientist to be able to explain why an earthquake happens... what does it take to explain the entire world's response? Which is the bigger mystery? Which can you say absolutely why it happens? For me, this earthquake is an occurance of chance... the true presence of God for me is when the Red Cross comes in, Red Crescent moves in, the international community acts as a unit (for once) to come to the aid of the unfortunate, the UAE sends rescue crews, Australia sends its air force to drop aid. I feel that when even one person cares about the misfortune of another... that is as much proof as you need to prove God exists.

wrong. this is not proof. This is speculation (at best) on your part. You're degrading the acts of humans by saying this is the presense of god as if they are not doing the act themselves. Why does it have to be god doing good? humans are humans and are capable of anything. But what you are saying we are only capable of these things because of god. And I'm willing to bet there are more humanists and athiests than christians who are philanthropists.
You don't need a higher being to care for your fellow man. Being a better man by helping another man is good enough for some people.

Of course he exists

Asia Toll Nears 77,000 As Aid Arrives (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20041229/ap_on_re_as/quake_tsunami) (AP) - Cargo planes touched down with aid Wednesday, bearing everything from lentils to water purifiers to help survivors facing the threat of epidemic after this week's quake-tsunami catastrophe. The first Indonesian military teams reached the devastated west coast of Sumatra island, finding thousands of bodies and increasing the death toll across 12 nations to nearly 77,000. The international Red Cross warned that the toll could eventually surpass 100,000.

yeah there is NO god because of that. good, conclusive evidence. I am so convinced.

God is just a really. really big fan of The Sims. We are all a big online game.
i knew it!

Of course he exists

you'll have to do better than that, the people of nationstates were waiting for Moses at the bottom of the mountain to debate whether we has a liar or not.

a friend brought up the fact that chromosomes are unable to reproduce themselves and therefore are unable to have formed on their own the first strand of DNA.
the only thing that this proves is that we don't know everything there is to know. And once again, I'm not saying god DOESN'T exist because I'm not omniscient. But does this prove that there is a god or an architech? not at all.

you'll have to do better than that, the people of nationstates were waiting for Moses at the bottom of the mountain to debate whether we has a liar or not.

Ok. All the people who pray to God and their prayers are answered. Could be illness or whatever.

Of course he exists

show me god. Not the acts of human kindness. show me *god*. Then I'll believe you.

That could be a sign that the people of that reigon are the enemies of god, OR the exact opposite: god was ending thier lives so they could go to the afterlife (presumably a good one)

Thats not justice??? Wow so i guess for all those people who killed and did crimes in there life. Hurted others should still be allowed to have paradise in Heaven??
Eternal punishment for a temporary crime. Don't you get it? It's like cutting your kid's hand off if you catch him shoplifting. It's cruelty, not justice.

Of course you can be forgiven but you just cant be dead because by that time its to late.
Your opinion of god is as simplistic as a five year old's.

There is a solid line between fact and faith. It is impossible to disprove religion by one's perception referred to as fact. People will believe what they want, and it is no use trying to sway that belief. And besides, death is hardly a tragedy. Granted, torture sucks, but death is just as regular as birth, maturing, and any other step in the cycle of life. So stop whining.

untrue. more like it proves that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God can't be understood by someone who lacks these characteristics. you.

not that that's a proof for the existence of God. yours just isn't a proof against it.
Please explain how a god of the three O's can allow horrible needless suffering to occur. I'll bet you end up using the cheap excuse "he works in mysterious ways".

Hmm its to bad people blame GOD for tehre problems that they created. Honestly do you think he jsut decided to one day throw a bunch of death on people i dont think so he gave of our free will cause we acted stupid once and now we can trully understand how it feels to be b ourselfes lol. I mean comon people die we been dying for a long time now how is that his fault we screw up so much?
Of course! How could I have been so stupid? It was the victim's fault they were killed by a tsunami. They brought it upon themselves.

Eternal punishment for a temporary crime. Don't you get it? It's like cutting your kid's hand off if you catch him shoplifting. It's cruelty, not justice.

its worse than that..its like cutting off a kids hand for thinking about shoplifting...Remember God punishes people becuase of their beliefs, not for what they did according to Christian theology

Please explain how a god of the three O's can allow horrible needless suffering to occur. I'll bet you end up using the cheap excuse "he works in mysterious ways".

He did just explain it, the point was that the act may not be such a horrible needless suffering, but rather something that was for the greater good but in a way that we cannot understand, not being any of the 3 O's

A lot of agnostics/athiests take the standpoint that God is omnipotent, caused the tsunami and is therefore evil.

We all neglect the possibility that God also being omniscient would know that this tsunami was necessary for some reason or another that we could not understand and that the victims may very well be in paradise.

How can we debate things that are affected by factors that as non-omniscients we could not possibly understand?
If he was both omnipotent and omniscient he could find a way to accomplish his goals without orphaning children and ruining people's livelyhood.

Asia Toll Nears 77,000 As Aid Arrives (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20041229/ap_on_re_as/quake_tsunami) (AP) - Cargo planes touched down with aid Wednesday, bearing everything from lentils to water purifiers to help survivors facing the threat of epidemic after this week's quake-tsunami catastrophe. The first Indonesian military teams reached the devastated west coast of Sumatra island, finding thousands of bodies and increasing the death toll across 12 nations to nearly 77,000. The international Red Cross warned that the toll could eventually surpass 100,000.

When did God ever say that the world would be perfect and good all the time?

i have no faith, i have no God, i feel people direct themselves, whatever sh*t they get themselves into is of there own doing. We lost our God when we stop following God (some time close to the 1st thanksgiving) Theres no going back.

If he was both omnipotent and omniscient he could find a way to accomplish his goals without orphaning children and ruining people's livelyhood.

the point is that what we percieve to be the orphaning of children/ruining people's livelyhoods may be something for the greater good and may have a positive effect in the long run, not being omniscient we wouldn't know.

the bad things = chance, good things = God school of thought
Who said the earthquake itself was the bad thing, it is a natural occurance that has happened due to a set of circumstances. Where it struck was totally chance. All the bad things that has occured was a collusion of human decisions and a chance strike by an Earthquake. If you blame God for this... you might as well blame God for devastation wrought by hurricanes on Florida... it is known that earthquakes happen along faultlines, it is also known that hurricanes tend to hit Florida a lot due to currents and whatnot. So you might as well blame God for all the bad decisions that's been made, no? Something that happens by chance isn't always unpredictable... You don't blame God that it snowed in Alaska on your birthday... but it happened by chance... yet it was well known that it tends to snow in Alaska. Why keep piling blame on God when there was so many things that people could of done to dampen the damage by certain events? Why blame God for the crusades when it was clearly greed that motivated that war? I could go on further... I've studied Arab-Israeli conflict... you should know that the context of those wars weren't religious, it was secular, nationalistic wars, holy lands aren't a religious significance in these conflicts... it's an issue of nationalism... neither side wants to lose it. It is by chance that people had a flare up of greed in their positions of power, but was in unexpected? Why ask God to solve every little problem created by humans? *continues ranting at the brick wall*

At least in the Christian faith, God has placed more and more power in the hands of individuals to carry out works. So shouldn't the fact that people have responded and have decided to sacrifice their own economic well being, physical well being in order to help those that came under unfortunate circunstances be a proof that there is a God? [QUOTE]


No, it's proof that humans are empathetic, moral animals.


[QUOTE]Couldn't the existance of compassion in a world spiraling more and more self-serving, capitalistic, commercialized society be proof that something or someone not within our own understanding has placed at least an ounce of compassion in our lives?[QUOTE]


Please show that the world is more materialistic now than in, oh, let's say, Jesus' time. Also, why do chimps show empathy and compassion?


[QUOTE] How can any act of logic explain the existance of humanitarianism, compassion, and self-sacrifice? [QUOTE]


It is a natural adaptation in gregarious primates. We see it in all our ape relatives.


[QUOTE]It takes a scientist to be able to explain why an earthquake happens... what does it take to explain the entire world's response? Which is the bigger mystery? Which can you say absolutely why it happens? For me, this earthquake is an occurance of chance... the true presence of God for me is when the Red Cross comes in, Red Crescent moves in, the international community acts as a unit (for once) to come to the aid of the unfortunate, the UAE sends rescue crews, Australia sends its air force to drop aid. I feel that when even one person cares about the misfortune of another... that is as much proof as you need to prove God exists.
This is not evidence of god at all.

When did God ever say that the world would be perfect and good all the time?
when did god ever say an actual word?

Of course he exists
Well I guess that settles it. Now what religion does he want us to be?

Who said the earthquake itself was the bad thing, it is a natural occurance that has happened due to a set of circumstances. Where it struck was totally chance. All the bad things that has occured was a collusion of human decisions and a chance strike by an Earthquake. If you blame God for this... you might as well blame God for devastation wrought by hurricanes on Florida... it is known that earthquakes happen along faultlines, it is also known that hurricanes tend to hit Florida a lot due to currents and whatnot. So you might as well blame God for all the bad decisions that's been made, no? Something that happens by chance isn't always unpredictable... You don't blame God that it snowed in Alaska on your birthday... but it happened by chance... yet it was well known that it tends to snow in Alaska. Why keep piling blame on God when there was so many things that people could of done to dampen the damage by certain events? Why blame God for the crusades when it was clearly greed that motivated that war? I could go on further... I've studied Arab-Israeli conflict... you should know that the context of those wars weren't religious, it was secular, nationalistic wars, holy lands aren't a religious significance in these conflicts... it's an issue of nationalism... neither side wants to lose it. It is by chance that people had a flare up of greed in their positions of power, but was in unexpected? Why ask God to solve every little problem created by humans? *continues ranting at the brick wall*

My point is a natural chance occurence that has a negative impact is seen as just being chance. But one that has a positive impact is seen as an act of God.

Maybe God shouldn't be blamed for all bad things, but he shouldn't be credited with all good things either. God or Coincidence, pick one

Ok. All the people who pray to God and their prayers are answered. Could be illness or whatever.
Ok, all the people who pray to god and their prayers are not answered. What about them? Or the people who pray to gods or goddess and do get their prayers answered. What about them?

when did god ever say an actual word?

Dont split hairs. The Bible never at any point claims that God would keep the world safe and free from harm all the time. So there is no reason why something like this is cause to shake faith in God.

There is a solid line between fact and faith. It is impossible to disprove religion by one's perception referred to as fact. People will believe what they want, and it is no use trying to sway that belief. And besides, death is hardly a tragedy. Granted, torture sucks, but death is just as regular as birth, maturing, and any other step in the cycle of life. So stop whining.
It's impossible to prove that no type of god can exist, but reason and observation of the fact of evil shows that at least one specific type of god can't exist. Namely the kind that knows all, is all powerfull, and loves all people.

Ok, all the people who pray to god and their prayers are not answered. What about them? Or the people who pray to gods or goddess and do get their prayers answered. What about them?

Not all prayers are answered "Yes". God answers all prayers, even if sometimes the answer is no.

Why keep piling blame on God when there was so many things that people could of done to dampen the damage by certain events? Why blame God for the crusades when it was clearly greed that motivated that war? I could go on further...

I never blamed god. Why blame something that could or could not be there? I blamed the human creation called religion. And regardless of what the *true* motives of these people were (we can never know for certain) the fact remains that they USED religion to farther their gains. Religion is a tool.



*continues ranting at the brick wall*

I feel the same way.

Dont split hairs. The Bible never at any point claims that God would keep the world safe and free from harm all the time. So there is no reason why something like this is cause to shake faith in God.

That's like saying it doesn't say anywhere that your parents won't hammer a nail into your head, it's not explicitly stated but it's not too much to ask.

He did just explain it, the point was that the act may not be such a horrible needless suffering, but rather something that was for the greater good but in a way that we cannot understand, not being any of the 3 O's
No he didn't. Omniscient=all knowing. If he's that smart he can think of a way that doesn't involve suffering. Omnipotent=all powerfull. If he's that powerfull he can execute the no-suffering plan.

When did God ever say that the world would be perfect and good all the time?
When did he ever say anything?

Dont split hairs. The Bible never at any point claims that God would keep the world safe and free from harm all the time. So there is no reason why something like this is cause to shake faith in God.

The bible was written by Man. Man is imperfect. Therefore the bible is fallible.

That's like saying it doesn't say anywhere that your parents won't hammer a nail into your head, it's not explicitly stated but it's not too much to ask.

Again your spliting hairs. God never states that it will be an easy ride for anyone, especially Christians. Often the Bible makes the oppisite clear. My point is that an event like this does not prove/disprove the existance of God, since the Bible never says it is God's job too keep the world free from harm.

the point is that what we percieve to be the orphaning of children/ruining people's livelyhoods may be something for the greater good and may have a positive effect in the long run, not being omniscient we wouldn't know.
Cheap cop-out bullshit. Sorry suffering is suffering and a being who can avoid causing any should do so if it is to be omnibenevolent. What are you trying to get at? God needs us to feel pain? If a god existed and it inflicted pain on us for it's pleasure, it would be a devil.

look we live in a cursed world, what else do you expect than earthquakes and natural disaters occur, it has nothing to do with God because lots of the world reject Him

The bible was written by Man. Man is imperfect. Therefore the bible is fallible.

Depends on wether or not you believe the Bible to be divinely inspired...

Not all prayers are answered "Yes". God answers all prayers, even if sometimes the answer is no.

how convinient. So the answer is NO all the time! There has never been a recorded incident where god came down from where ever he is and said "YES".

No he didn't. Omniscient=all knowing. If he's that smart he can think of a way that doesn't involve suffering. Omnipotent=all powerfull. If he's that powerfull he can execute the no-suffering plan.

yes, the point is that being this is only the suffering plan according to you, but it may in actuality be not that bad God being omniscient knows this, you not being omniscient don't.

Speaking as an agnostic, I admit that this may be a long shot, but then that's because I'm not omniscient

Cheap cop-out bullshit. Sorry suffering is suffering and a being who can avoid causing any should do so if it is to be omnibenevolent. What are you trying to get at? God needs us to feel pain? If a god existed and it inflicted pain on us for it's pleasure, it would be a devil.

Find me a bible verse where God promises to keep all people free from harm all the time.

Who said the earthquake itself was the bad thing, it is a natural occurance that has happened due to a set of circumstances. Where it struck was totally chance. All the bad things that has occured was a collusion of human decisions and a chance strike by an Earthquake. If you blame God for this... you might as well blame God for devastation wrought by hurricanes on Florida... it is known that earthquakes happen along faultlines, it is also known that hurricanes tend to hit Florida a lot due to currents and whatnot. So you might as well blame God for all the bad decisions that's been made, no? Something that happens by chance isn't always unpredictable... You don't blame God that it snowed in Alaska on your birthday... but it happened by chance... yet it was well known that it tends to snow in Alaska. Why keep piling blame on God when there was so many things that people could of done to dampen the damage by certain events? Why blame God for the crusades when it was clearly greed that motivated that war? I could go on further... I've studied Arab-Israeli conflict... you should know that the context of those wars weren't religious, it was secular, nationalistic wars, holy lands aren't a religious significance in these conflicts... it's an issue of nationalism... neither side wants to lose it. It is by chance that people had a flare up of greed in their positions of power, but was in unexpected? Why ask God to solve every little problem created by humans? *continues ranting at the brick wall*
God made the earth according to theists. God made an earth where tsunamis kill 80,000 innocent people at random. God is evil or god is not all powerfull, or god is not so bright. Or, god doesn't exist, random chance killed those poor people. Take your pick.

how convinient. So the answer is NO all the time! There has never been a recorded incident where god came down from where ever he is and said "YES".

Not true. He has granted many peoples prayers. You talk to many Christians you can find examples of that.