NationStates Jolt Archive

Cheap cop-out bullshit. Sorry suffering is suffering and a being who can avoid causing any should do so if it is to be omnibenevolent. What are you trying to get at? God needs us to feel pain? If a god existed and it inflicted pain on us for it's pleasure, it would be a devil.

I'm agnostic, I'm not saying I'm right, just that it's a possibility.

Dont split hairs. The Bible never at any point claims that God would keep the world safe and free from harm all the time. So there is no reason why something like this is cause to shake faith in God.
The existance of needless suffering clearly shows that there cannot be an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent god. If your god exists and he allows needless suffering it's because he's not smart enough to avoid it, or he's not strong enough, or he really doesn't care.

Not all prayers are answered "Yes". God answers all prayers, even if sometimes the answer is no.
I guess the other gods and the goddess work the same way?

God made the earth according to theists. God made an earth where tsunamis kill 80,000 innocent people at random. God is evil or god is not all powerfull, or god is not so bright. Or, god doesn't exist, random chance killed those poor people. Take your pick.

OR It is not God's job to prevent suffering OR It was man who brought suffering into the world (Via sin)

show me god. Not the acts of human kindness. show me *god*. Then I'll believe you.

Look into the face of someone you love.

The existance of needless suffering clearly shows that there cannot be an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent god. If your god exists and he allows needless suffering it's because he's not smart enough to avoid it, or he's not strong enough, or he really doesn't care.

you're repeating the same point over and over, regardless of the arguments people propose.

Again your spliting hairs. God never states that it will be an easy ride for anyone, especially Christians. Often the Bible makes the oppisite clear. My point is that an event like this does not prove/disprove the existance of God, since the Bible never says it is God's job too keep the world free from harm.
It does disprove the existance of a god of the three O's.

look we live in a cursed world, what else do you expect than earthquakes and natural disaters occur, it has nothing to do with God because lots of the world reject Him
I agree that it has nothing to do with god because I don't think a god exists. Those who do beleive must somehow reconcile this cursed world with their loving creator.

The existance of needless suffering clearly shows that there cannot be an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent god. If your god exists and he allows needless suffering it's because he's not smart enough to avoid it, or he's not strong enough, or he really doesn't care.

OR Its not his job to prevent suffering. Let me ask you this, what would a world be like without any suffering of any kind, at all, ever? And I am not just talking big things, I am talking suffering at every level. Right down to small annoyances. Because thats suffering too isnt it? On a smaller scale. So what would that world be like?

Depends on wether or not you believe the Bible to be divinely inspired...

"divinely inspired" is a cop out. I could be inspired by a rainbow in the sky to write a poem about it. Did the rainbow *tell* me to write it? no. And if it did, who's to say I would write exactly what it said? What if I didn't like everything I heard? I have free will don't I? Or is the rainbow going to reach down and force me to write what it wants me to write? no.
The same is for ALL written works. god did not write the bible no matter how you spin it. man did.

yes, the point is that being this is only the suffering plan according to you, but it may in actuality be not that bad God being omniscient knows this, you not being omniscient don't.

Speaking as an agnostic, I admit that this may be a long shot, but then that's because I'm not omniscient
Ask a mother who lost her kid and who's husband is severely crippled and can no longer support the couple. I'll bet she'd tell you she's suffering.

It does disprove the existance of a god of the three O's.

Alternatively it proves that you do not understand the reasoning of a God of the three O's, which stands to reason as you are none of the three O's

Find me a bible verse where God promises to keep all people free from harm all the time.
I'm not discussing the bible. I'm discussing the fact that a loving, all-powerfull, and all-knowing god would eliminate suffering.

"divinely inspired" is a cop out. I could be inspired by a rainbow in the sky to write a poem about it. Did the rainbow *tell* me to write it? no. And if it did, who's to say I would write exactly what it said? What if I didn't like everything I heard? I have free will don't I? Or is the rainbow going to reach down and force me to write what it wants me to write? no.
The same is for ALL written works. god did not write the bible no matter how you spin it. man did.

Traditionally speaking, the bible is the word of God, dictated to man and written exactly. Although some theologians claim that it there was 4 versions, not just 1.

OR It is not God's job to prevent suffering OR It was man who brought suffering into the world (Via sin)
Some primitives ate an apple so 80,000 people die in southeast asia. I get it now.

Traditionally speaking, the bible is the word of God, dictated to man and written exactly. Although some theologians claim that it there was 4 versions, not just 1.

God spoke to them, he didn't dictate.

OR It is not God's job to prevent suffering OR It was man who brought suffering into the world (Via sin)
It's not his job to prevent suffering? Ok, so you admit he's not omnibenevolent. He cares, just not that much.

It does disprove the existance of a god of the three O's.

Why?

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/natevl.html

Look into the face of someone you love.
That's not god. That's a human.

Ask a mother who lost her kid and who's husband is severely crippled and can no longer support the couple. I'll bet she'd tell you she's suffering.

You put me in the position of having to appear insensitive. Ask a man who's lost an arm to an explosion, and he'll say he's suffering, but if he tell's the mother in question she will say he's not suffering at all, not compared to her. Therefore suffering is all relative, as such if a suffering exists that is so bad (such as Hell) then all Earthly suffering is not really suffering.

To reiterate that does not mean I laugh in the face of those who suffer.

It's not his job to prevent suffering? Ok, so you admit he's not omnibenevolent. He cares, just not that much.

Omnibenevolent means he loves all yes, you can love someone but not do everything for them cant you. A father wont nurse maid his child through its entire life will he.

That's not god. That's a human.

Guess you didn't get the reference :/

you're repeating the same point over and over, regardless of the arguments people propose.
Because the arguments people propose don't counter my point, and they refuse to understand my point. It's actually logical and well reasoned out if I do say so myself.

God spoke to them, he didn't dictate.

I stand corrected

OR Its not his job to prevent suffering. Let me ask you this, what would a world be like without any suffering of any kind, at all, ever? And I am not just talking big things, I am talking suffering at every level. Right down to small annoyances. Because thats suffering too isnt it? On a smaller scale. So what would that world be like?
Paradise? According to your reasoning it wouldn't be worth it to live there, let's all go to hell.

Paradise?

The Twighlight Zone did an episode about a gambler in heaven who never lost a game, and quickly he got bored and requested to be sent to hell instead, to which he was told that this was hell.

Hardly the best source but it illustrates the point

Alternatively it proves that you do not understand the reasoning of a God of the three O's, which stands to reason as you are none of the three O's
Dude, just look at the definitions of the words and use logic. You are making excuses, and not very good ones.

For those trying to disprove him you need to first prove him (him in the general sense of male and female). To those who believe you first must find a way that he can be disproven, in other words it can't be done! You can't prove him unless he is physical, and with varying forms of differential beliefs towards both monotheism and atheism it furthur weakens the cause. You can't prove he doesn't or does exist unless you have something to look for or understand, but do we, no, we don't...

Dude, just look at the definitions of the words and use logic. You are making excuses, and not very good ones.

And you're riding the same point until the wheels fell off, although I can't answer all your questions other people are and you're carrying on regardless. Take a minute to read the other people's posts.

I'm not discussing the bible. I'm discussing the fact that a loving, all-powerfull, and all-knowing god would eliminate suffering.

Since the Bible is the only understanding we have of God beyond developing a relationship with him through prayer, I sugest you use it. God never promised any kind of wet blanket over humanity. He never said anything to the effect that we would all be safe all the time. Think about this for a second. If he elimitated mass suffering we would all be very thankful. However we would know no diffrent if he never allowed it. So then we would begin to get very angry against smaller scale suffering. Individual murders, rapes, drug deaths etc. So if God got rid of them we would get angry at the lower evils etc. My point being that a world without any kind of evil does exist. Its called Heven. God never said Earth would be nice and happy and good all the time. Often the reverse in fact (particulaly for Christians). This does not mean he loves us any less.

If I hear the work "omniscient" one more time I'm gonna scream!!!!

The idea that God knows everthing that is going to happen, and that we are already damned to Heaven or Hell is strictly a Calvanist belief. God informed prophets of what was to come. The prophets in turn told the generalization of the events to take place (ex: Sodom and Gammorah. a list of names of all those who would die was not given, only that the cities would be utterly destroyed).

When Lucifer and other angels rebeled against God, they were banished from paradise. Lucifer is now angered because of his banishment, and can not return for all of his power. God gave man free will because we are his most prized creation, but with that freedom comes the ability to believe in God or not. Lucifer, in his rage, works to turn these "free" beings away from God. The Earth is not ruled by God or Satan, but can be influenced by them. Evil will prevail in humans, because of free will. God gave us the ability to choose, thus he can not posses us and turn us to good. If he did, he would in turn go against his own ifallible word. Satan has that ability, since he did not grant us that gift. The act of protesting God's existance is the actuall excercising of the right that God himself gave you. If you want a less religious definition, evil and good exist in different forms culturally. However there can't be good without evil, and evil without good. Yin and Yang. Peace and Conflict. If you have a child, that for sake of this post looks like you, can you have control over everything they do? No. Why? Free will.

Many forms of Organized religion are wrong to an extent. Many beliefs are so old that their original roots have been blurred. Scientist place the birth of Christ (traditionally dec 25 year C.E. 0-1) to some time earlier than that. according to ancient scripts of the Magii and others exactly to April 17 B.C.E. 6. The root of Christmas is a day of worship of the Egyptian Sun God. That is also why all Christian graves face the east, to greet the rising sun in praise...even after death. Hence alot of what is known about in organized religion is wrong.

The idea of a "Pagan" is also obscurred in these passages. A "pagan" is a peasant. The word for peasant in french is still "pagan". Thus "Paganism" is the following of nature, many Christian farmers use the "pagan's calendar" for crops.

Finally, I'm not pressing anyone one way or the other. If you don't believe that's fine with me. However, what I do ask is for so level of tolerance of other people's beliefs. Some of the people posting here have not only an intolerance, but also a lack expression beyond complaining how stupid others are, and profuse swearing. In turn appearing less intelligent.

Asia Toll Nears 77,000 As Aid Arrives (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20041229/ap_on_re_as/quake_tsunami) (AP) - Cargo planes touched down with aid Wednesday, bearing everything from lentils to water purifiers to help survivors facing the threat of epidemic after this week's quake-tsunami catastrophe. The first Indonesian military teams reached the devastated west coast of Sumatra island, finding thousands of bodies and increasing the death toll across 12 nations to nearly 77,000. The international Red Cross warned that the toll could eventually surpass 100,000.
How does that prove anything? Did Hiroshima and Nagasaki prove god doesnt exist? No, but it ended a war for us.

If God is all-powerful and all-loving diety he could have made a world better than this one, iif there is a God then this God set the conditions which brought this world into being and setthe conditions which detremine the way the world is and if he exist he created this world so people would suffer in it but he didnt have too since he is all-powerful and he could have done better but instead he choose to create a world where every living being not just humans have to survive by consuming the life of another being. He created a world where the only way to live is by an act of extreme violence, Why does god have living creatures participate in the destruction of other living things...why is it this way?

Paradise? According to your reasoning it wouldn't be worth it to live there, let's all go to hell.

It would be paradise. But paradise on Earth. We cant deal with that. Our lives would have no purpose if there was no suffering at all. As Agent Smith put it "Human beings define their reality through misery and suffering"

Why?

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/natevl.html
You, Neo, are a creationist. You would agree that god created the universe. You also would agree that god created man. He picked Earth as man's home. Then he did something illogical. Even though he knows everything, even the future, he put man to the test. He must have known people would fail the test. Yet he did it anyway. Some people would fail and fail again and never ask forgiveness. Their failures would cause suffering. Their end would be eternal suffering. Others would take god's path. Still they wouldn't be spared suffering because of the sins of others, and because of natural disasters ON THE WORLD GOD CHOSE FOR THEM. If god loves everyone, knows everything, and can do anything, couldn't he choose a better world, and prevent those who's lives would only be a source of suffering for themselves and others from ever being born?

Oh, oh, oh, now I know what scene this is reminiscent of...
It's like watching two missionaries trying to prove which believe is more right in their own context...
This could go around in circles for all of eternity, the only way one would find out who is really right is if someone amongst us died and had a cell phone capable of calling home. @.@

Omnibenevolent means he loves all yes, you can love someone but not do everything for them cant you. A father wont nurse maid his child through its entire life will he.
Yes, but a father lets his son make mistakes to learn. A creator strives to make his creations perfect from the beginning. A father also doesn't let his children stand in front of a moving train, or tsunami in this case.

Okay, so in my own personal life I'm a bit of a zealot. But a quiet zealot. However, here I can say whatever I want. However, I find that if anyone says anything too inflamitory on these posts, others just resort to the good old name calling, so I'll try to be objective.

I've been told (and I beilve) that God allows bad things happen to people for two reasons:

1. We bring it upon ourselves. ie. Stay up all night playing video games then fail a test? Our own fault. Start sleeping around and get an STD? Brought upon yourself.

2. It is a test. Not just for those who are suffering but for the rest of us too. When the tsunami hit, what did you do? Rant that God doesn't exist, and hates us? Or did you try to do something useful about it? Donate money, or time, or even reach out to your own neighbors? If God stopped everything bad from happening, we, as a society and as a world, would become that seven year old child who gets everything he wants, and then cries because he smashed his own gameboy. I don't think I want to live in that kind of place.

How does that prove anything? Did Hiroshima and Nagasaki prove god doesnt exist? No, but it ended a war for us.

Good point. Dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki took lives, but also saved the lives of hundreds if the war continued.

A sick warning? Maybe....

The Twighlight Zone did an episode about a gambler in heaven who never lost a game, and quickly he got bored and requested to be sent to hell instead, to which he was told that this was hell.

Hardly the best source but it illustrates the point
The gambler in paradise wouldn't lose limbs and loved ones in the game. God's game is much less forgiving apparently.

As Agent Smith put it "Human beings define their reality through misery and suffering"

Because that is all they know...all is Dukkha, we define happiness as the absence of suffering

Yes, but a father lets his son make mistakes to learn. A creator strives to make his creations perfect from the beginning. A father also doesn't let his children stand in front of a moving train, or tsunami in this case.

If you have a way of avoidig a tsuanami that the masses can use to escape death, go tell someone important.

Since the Bible is the only understanding we have of God beyond developing a relationship with him through prayer, I sugest you use it.

the bible is a wonderful work of fiction no doubt about it. You have death, violence, wars, marital affairs, retribution, and drama that would put today's soap operas to shame. The old testiment god especially is wrathful and tends to throw tantrams when he doesn't get his way. Very humanistic if you ask me.... why is that? because these people *were* human.

And you're riding the same point until the wheels fell off, although I can't answer all your questions other people are and you're carrying on regardless. Take a minute to read the other people's posts.
I have read other people's posts. Most haven't asked any questions. They have made speculative statements.

Since the Bible is the only understanding we have of God beyond developing a relationship with him through prayer, I sugest you use it. God never promised any kind of wet blanket over humanity. He never said anything to the effect that we would all be safe all the time. Think about this for a second. If he elimitated mass suffering we would all be very thankful. However we would know no diffrent if he never allowed it. So then we would begin to get very angry against smaller scale suffering. Individual murders, rapes, drug deaths etc. So if God got rid of them we would get angry at the lower evils etc. My point being that a world without any kind of evil does exist. Its called Heven. God never said Earth would be nice and happy and good all the time. Often the reverse in fact (particulaly for Christians). This does not mean he loves us any less.
Neo, I have shown in other threads that the bible contradicts itself frequently. It's too open to interpretation. I'm not going to use such a flawed book. In fact, I don't beleive god ever said anything. But why would god make his creations to complain anyway? If heaven is perfect, according to the statements some theists have made in this thread, it's not worth living there.

Neo, I have shown in other threads that the bible contradicts itself frequently. It's too open to interpretation. I'm not going to use such a flawed book. In fact, I don't beleive god ever said anything. But why would god make his creations to complain anyway? If heaven is perfect, according to the statements some theists have made in this thread, it's not worth living there.
If it's not too much trouble, could you please post specific points of contadiction?

This doesn't prove anything. What have the jews done to get all of their humiliation and death? nothing, god let the holocaust happen, god let you be a dumbass and post that thread too. If he exists and he let it happen, then let it be a lesson to live more holy, we all could die within seconds.
I myself don't believe in god, things happen because of science, but this only proves that our earth can kills us- not that god doesn't exist, idiot.

No point blaming god. Shit happens, God gives us responsiblity for our own lives. So we take the rough with the smooth.

I am sorry for those who died but you have to remember our place in the big scheme of things. As a race we continue.

A colony of ants carries on if you tread on quite a few of them. In fact, wipr out a colony and they will carry on. So do we.

We don't have immortality and I don't think that is achievable. It is achievable however, that we can give the human race immortality. Humans will carry on and we will overcome.

I'm getting bored of this thread. I may return to it later. I just want to close with this. Saying god is all three O's yet pain and suffering exist is like saying everything is blue, now please hand me that orange thing.

I myself don't believe in god, things happen because of science, but this only proves that our earth can kills us- not that god doesn't exist, idiot.

So the world and the universe was created from the Big Bang.....but we're it all come from? Where'd all the atoms and particles come from?

The old testiment god especially is wrathful and tends to throw tantrams when he doesn't get his way.

Absolutely. The old testament God often borders on homicidal in his treatment of humanity. The stories of Exodus, Joshua, and the other wilderness-based ones are littered with massacres (generally ordered by god), plagues, curses from god and the like. At one point I believe god devours the sons of the priest Aaron with holy flames after they light an "unauthorized fire". Moses then instructs Aaron not to mourn, or god will turn his attention to the rest of the people.

If god gave us free will and truly cares and loves us why would he punish us for chosing not to believe in him and follow a chirch of any kind? just a question to ponder. :eek:

If it's not too much trouble, could you please post specific points of contadiction?
infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
This is my last post on the subject for tonight, and I really wish you would have read it the first two times I posted it. Each of those times was specifically in response to you, Neo. In different threads.

If god gave us free will and truly cares and loves us why would he punish us for chosing not to believe in him and follow a chirch of any kind? just a question to ponder. :eek:

I already told you, he said, "Hey, you can do whatever you want. Im not going to control you. But if you mess up, your going to hell."

I'm getting bored of this thread. I may return to it later. I just want to close with this. Saying god is all three O's yet pain and suffering exist is like saying everything is blue, now please hand me that orange thing.

And saying that I am not omniscient but I understand omniscience well enough to reason about it is like saying:

"Well, I don't know anything about nuclear physics, but if I was building that reactor"

show me god. Not the acts of human kindness. show me *god*. Then I'll believe you.

Show me studys of the nucleus of an atom. Show me. What? You cant because of the uncertanty principle? *Sarcasm* Then it probably doesnt exist or have any function at all.*Sarcasm*

You cant dismiss things for a lack of Hard Evidence. Just because a murder isnt scene doesnt mean it didnt happen. We have to rely on petty evidence to form the whole picture. Trifles over a lack of major evidence waste time.

September 11 was proof that god does not exist. I was there so I know. North tower...64th floor.

Yes, but a father lets his son make mistakes to learn. A creator strives to make his creations perfect from the beginning. A father also doesn't let his children stand in front of a moving train, or tsunami in this case.

Wrong! Why does the father do that to his son? Just for no reason at all? No, the father does it so his son knows how to avoid a mistake and what to do when it happens, that is striving for perfection as a whole and striving for partial perfection as well. Same with God. Do you think he is going to stop everything for us, because that would take us nowhere. If you keep a baby in a bubble and keep it away from Germs its entire life, one day, when you take it out of the bubble its immune system will fail and the baby will die. Same thing with tradegy, tradegy causes thought, thought causes ideas, ideas cause action, action makes life better or worse. If life is better it is good. If life becomes worse it makes tradegy, and tradegy cause thought... You get the idea.

Good point. Dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki took lives, but also saved the lives of hundreds if the war continued.

A sick warning? Maybe....

god didn't drop the bomb, we did. Nothing in the history of Man can be attributed to an outside force other than Man. Whether Man puts his faith in himself or another being when commiting these acts is another story.

And saying that I am not omniscient but I understand omniscience well enough to reason about it is like saying:

"Well, I don't know anything about nuclear physics, but if I was building that reactor"
it's more like, i dont know anything about nuclear physics, but i know that guy can build a reactor because he studied nuclear physics in college, and i know people learn shit there

And saying that I am not omniscient but I understand omniscience well enough to reason about it is like saying:

"Well, I don't know anything about nuclear physics, but if I was building that reactor"
Ok, I couldn't stay away.

No, that's a bad analogy. It's more like saying I don't know anything about nuclear physics, but I would assume someone who knew everything about the subject would build a safe and effective reactor.

God does exist but evil comes from sin. And sin happened becuase the human face screwed up Gods perfect world. Accidents like this is sin. Sin leads to death. And all sin. If you dont believe you sin, then this is why you die. As for why do we have to follow a church. We dont. It says nothing about being the member of a church anywhere in the bible. But to have his eternal life all you have to do is beleive. Its that simple. If you dont want to take the time to beleive then sin and death is your fate

Show me studys of the nucleus of an atom. Show me. What? You cant because of the uncertanty principle? *Sarcasm* Then it probably doesnt exist or have any function at all.*Sarcasm*

You cant dismiss things for a lack of Hard Evidence. Just because a murder isnt scene doesnt mean it didnt happen. We have to rely on petty evidence to form the whole picture. Trifles over a lack of major evidence waste time.
Actually, if you don't have any evidence a murder had taken place you would be justified in denying that any such act had occured. Without a decent ammount of evidence for god you can be justified in not beleiving.

So the world and the universe was created from the Big Bang.....but we're it all come from? Where'd all the atoms and particles come from?
I can't answer that. Noone who isn't omniscient can honestly answer that either. The same question you ask could be applied to god. Noone who isn't omniscient can answer.

Wrong! Why does the father do that to his son? Just for no reason at all? No, the father does it so his son knows how to avoid a mistake and what to do when it happens, that is striving for perfection as a whole and striving for partial perfection as well. Same with God. Do you think he is going to stop everything for us, because that would take us nowhere. If you keep a baby in a bubble and keep it away from Germs its entire life, one day, when you take it out of the bubble its immune system will fail and the baby will die. Same thing with tradegy, tradegy causes thought, thought causes ideas, ideas cause action, action makes life better or worse. If life is better it is good. If life becomes worse it makes tradegy, and tradegy cause thought... You get the idea.
We have no choice but to create humans as ignorant babies and let them learn from there. God can create wise adults.

bad things happen to everyone, maybe its just your turn up. and worse things happen to some people than others. but then good stuff happens too. God grants us the good stuff, and free will is one of them even if that means that we disoney him. having faith doesn't mean that we have to have proof or even all the answers all the time. having faith means that we are willing to risk something for a better good.

God does exist but evil comes from sin. And sin happened becuase the human face screwed up Gods perfect world. Accidents like this is sin. Sin leads to death. And all sin. If you dont believe you sin, then this is why you die. As for why do we have to follow a church. We dont. It says nothing about being the member of a church anywhere in the bible. But to have his eternal life all you have to do is beleive. Its that simple. If you dont want to take the time to beleive then sin and death is your fate
Nothing but empty speculation unsupported by any evidence.

Show me studys of the nucleus of an atom. Show me. What? You cant because of the uncertanty principle? *Sarcasm* Then it probably doesnt exist or have any function at all.*Sarcasm*

You cant dismiss things for a lack of Hard Evidence. Just because a murder isnt scene doesnt mean it didnt happen. We have to rely on petty evidence to form the whole picture. Trifles over a lack of major evidence waste time.

well we usually have a dead person as evidence in murder case don't we? pretty hard evidence if you ask me

Actually, if you don't have any evidence a murder had taken place you would be justified in denying that any such act had occured. Without a decent ammount of evidence for god you can be justified in not beleiving.

I didnt say that, I said Hard Evidence, I.E. Witness to the murder or Video tape, while petty evidence is the blood and bullet and etc.

bad things happen to everyone, maybe its just your turn up. and worse things happen to some people than others. but then good stuff happens too. God grants us the good stuff, and free will is one of them even if that means that we disoney him. having faith doesn't mean that we have to have proof or even all the answers all the time. having faith means that we are willing to risk something for a better good.
Why do you feel justified in blaming bad stuff on chance and human failure and all the good stuff comes from god? Didn't he create everything, good and bad?

But where is there any evidence for the existence of God....i never seen even a hair

well we usually have a dead person as evidence in murder case don't we? pretty hard evidence if you ask me

Hard Evidence is seeing it happen, how do you not know he didnt kill himself, etc.? Hard Evidence is what it is, Very Undeniable evidence. Like I can see the ground and touch it, it probably exists.

I didnt say that, I said Hard Evidence, I.E. Witness to the murder or Video tape, while petty evidence is the blood and bullet and etc.
I could find an empty shell casing and a bloodstain on the sidewalk and upon analysing the blood find it was human. I still don't know anyone was murdered. It could have been self defense. The victim could only have been wounded, he might have stumbled off to a hospital. The two pieces of evidence could be unconnected. A kid playing on the sidewalk got cut by a broken bottle. The shell casing was dropped by a guy who reloads his own ammo. Petty evidence proves nothing.

Hard Evidence is seeing it happen, how do you not know he didnt kill himself, etc.? Hard Evidence is what it is, Very Undeniable evidence. Like I can see the ground and touch it, it probably exists.

Show me any evidence of the existence of an Invisble Magic Anthromorphic Godlike Entity, just a smidgen of evidence

I could find an empty shell casing and a bloodstain on the sidewalk and upon analysing the blood find it was human. I still don't know anyone was murdered. It could have been self defense. The victim could only have been wounded, he might have stumbled off to a hospital. The two pieces of evidence could be unconnected. A kid playing on the sidewalk got cut by a broken bottle. The shell casing was dropped by a guy who reloads his own ammo. Petty evidence proves nothing.

Im afraid it does. Look at many court cases, lots of petty evidence can make a larger picture.

Im afraid it does. Look at many court cases, lots of petty evidence can make a larger picture.
It takes a lot of petty evidence. There simply isn't enough to make me beleive in god. After all, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.

Show me studys of the nucleus of an atom. Show me. What? You cant because of the uncertanty principle? *Sarcasm* Then it probably doesnt exist or have any function at all.*Sarcasm*

You cant dismiss things for a lack of Hard Evidence. Just because a murder isnt scene doesnt mean it didnt happen. We have to rely on petty evidence to form the whole picture. Trifles over a lack of major evidence waste time.
And you still haven't shown me :) There is evidence of atoms and nuclei although I am not educated enough to explain them (But some phycisist out there can) There is, however, complete lack of evidene of any god. I can take all the "evidence" you provide to explain a god and explain it in another way. There is no absolute knowledge of god because one would have to be omniscient to understand god. This is why god is unknowable ( he either exists or doesn't exist but we can never know).
So once again, if you are so convinced that there is a god, show me. Honestly, I would like to see god if he exists :)

It takes a lot of petty evidence. There simply isn't enough to make me beleive in god. After all, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.

I understand that, but I havent seen enough proof to believe in the big bang yet. Physics dont apply to pre-space, and something cannot spawn from nothing.

September 11 was proof that god does not exist. I was there so I know. North tower...64th floor.

some would say that your survival was proof that God did exist.

Admittedly, the same people that credit God with good things and blame bad things on chance (or muslims).

But where is there any evidence for the existence of God....i never seen even a hair
that's because there aren't any. Unless you believe, like some religions, that god is releasing himself on you every time it rains. You'll never look at rain the same way again that's for sure :)

C'mon Kling just show us a little evidence

I hope that you were not serious when you wrote this. If so, well read your bible once again. (the reasl one, not the one meant to attract idiots into god's ways of making money) God hates us..

Kthnx and death to the American empire.

god or I should say, the Gods do not hate us. We hate them, well alot of us do anyway. We have are turning our backs on them forgetting they exist and thinking we ourselves are the all powerful, the rulers of this earth. we are not. and the tsunami was merely a reminder that the earth goddess has more power than any of us could ever imagine. it is a wake up call. the gods are not at all impressed with our selfish non-caring ways, so what do they do? the give us a disaster. it reminds us of there power and brings us closer together. look at what is now happening, people are pulling together, we are sponsering others helping them, bringing them aid. if thats not an act of god then I dont know what is. just you guys cant see it.

I understand that, but I havent seen enough proof to believe in the big bang yet. Physics dont apply to pre-space, and something cannot spawn from nothing.
Therefore there can be no god. Something can't spawn from nothing. If god can be eternal, or spring from nothing, why can't the universe?

We could argue this forever, and seemingly do...the very nature of God means that there is no proof that he does exist, and none that he doesn't.

Makes you wonder why we debate it, although it would surprise everyone if the conclusive answer was found on the nationstates forum...

god or I should say, the Gods do not hate us. We hate them, well alot of us do anyway. We have are turning our backs on them forgetting they exist and thinking we ourselves are the all powerful, the rulers of this earth. we are not. and the tsunami was merely a reminder that the earth goddess has more power than any of us could ever imagine. it is a wake up call. the gods are not at all impressed with our selfish non-caring ways, so what do they do? the give us a disaster. it reminds us of there power and brings us closer together. look at what is now happening, people are pulling together, we are sponsering others helping them, bringing them aid. if thats not an act of god then I dont know what is. just you guys cant see it.
You have convinced me. I shall sacrifice my neighbor's kids to the earth goddess tonight. Let her soil drink of their blood.

And you still haven't shown me :) There is evidence of atoms and nuclei although I am not educated enough to explain them (But some phycisist out there can) There is, however, complete lack of evidene of any god. I can take all the "evidence" you provide to explain a god and explain it in another way. There is no absolute knowledge of god because one would have to be omniscient to understand god. This is why god is unknowable ( he either exists or doesn't exist but we can never know).
So once again, if you are so convinced that there is a god, show me. Honestly, I would like to see god if he exists :)

Complete lack of? Thats an impossibility.
Plus, its the same thing you are calling out, that one would have to be omniscient to know God, that destroys your theory. You just stated there is no evidence against God. Thats a contradiction, and contradicitions are false.

We could argue this forever, and seemingly do...the very nature of God means that there is no proof that he does exist, and none that he doesn't.

Makes you wonder why we debate it, although it would surprise everyone if the conclusive answer was found on the nationstates forum...
I debate it because I find it a fun mental exercise.

Therefore there can be no god. Something can't spawn from nothing. If god can be eternal, or spring from nothing, why can't the universe?

congratulations, you have proven that one or the other is true :rolleyes:

I debate it because I find it a fun mental exercise.

that's a fair point

god or I should say, the Gods do not hate us. We hate them, well alot of us do anyway. We have are turning our backs on them forgetting they exist and thinking we ourselves are the all powerful, the rulers of this earth. we are not. and the tsunami was merely a reminder that the earth goddess has more power than any of us could ever imagine. it is a wake up call. the gods are not at all impressed with our selfish non-caring ways, so what do they do? the give us a disaster. it reminds us of there power and brings us closer together. look at what is now happening, people are pulling together, we are sponsering others helping them, bringing them aid. if thats not an act of god then I dont know what is. just you guys cant see it.

So now you are blaming the earth goddess?

You have convinced me. I shall sacrifice my neighbor's kids to the earth goddess tonight. Let her soil drink of their blood.

Hey, dont be a dick.

god or I should say, the Gods do not hate us. We hate them, well alot of us do anyway. We have are turning our backs on them forgetting they exist and thinking we ourselves are the all powerful, the rulers of this earth. we are not. and the tsunami was merely a reminder that the earth goddess has more power than any of us could ever imagine.

the earth is not a goddess. There is as much proof in that as there is in the christian god.

Show me any evidence of the existence of an Invisble Magic Anthromorphic Godlike Entity, just a smidgen of evidence

go for a walk in the park, see nature around u. there is your evidence that god exists.

Complete lack of? Thats an impossibility.
Plus, its the same thing you are calling out, that one would have to be omniscient to know God, that destroys your theory. You just stated there is no evidence against God. Thats a contradiction, and contradicitions are false.

There is some evidence against the exiistence of God but none so far for the existence of God

Complete lack of? Thats an impossibility.
Plus, its the same thing you are calling out, that one would have to be omniscient to know God, that destroys your theory. You just stated there is no evidence against God. Thats a contradiction, and contradicitions are false.
There can be situations where there is no evidence for or against something. It's not a contradiction. I can say that there are muslim aliens on a distant planet. You can't provide evidence that they don't exist. I can't provide evidence that they do.

go for a walk in the park, see nature around u. there is your evidence that god exists.
Or that evolution has produced wonderfull variety.

the earth is not a goddess. There is as much proof in that as there is in the christian god.

maybe not a literal goddess, but there is a Gaia theory, that says basically the Earth defends itself from global warming, etc. It is shaky at best however

go for a walk in the park, see nature around u. there is your evidence that god exists.

If I go walk in a park, and see nature all around me, it is evidence of the existence of a park not God

Therefore there can be no god. Something can't spawn from nothing. If god can be eternal, or spring from nothing, why can't the universe?

He didnt come of nothing, mind you, that a pre-universe is without dimensions, which means there is no time. Eternity. An O.O.O. Force could probably exist there.

You have convinced me. I shall sacrifice my neighbor's kids to the earth goddess tonight. Let her soil drink of their blood.

the Goddess does not expect sacrifices, just that we love and respect her, and her children, which is ourselves and the creation around us. performing sacrifices is not respectful, it is a disgusting act and not one to be joked about. so dont be a smart arse.

Complete lack of? Thats an impossibility.
Plus, its the same thing you are calling out, that one would have to be omniscient to know God, that destroys your theory. You just stated there is no evidence against God. Thats a contradiction, and contradicitions are false.

There is no evidence for or against god. I'm not an athiest so my "argument" is not false. One cannot know if god does or doesn't exist. There is NO evidence to support either or. When I say there is no evidence of god it doesn't *mean* there is no god.
Do you understand what an agnostic is?

Exactly. What did those people do to deserve that kind of sh*t? Caring, benevolent God my ass.

LOL i do belive God exists.

There is some evidence against the exiistence of God but none so far for the existence of God

The evidence against God is usually just evidence against the Bible, or specific religions, little exists that suggests there is no God in one form or another.

Mostly it's "If God exists, this would not have happened," which is as logical as arguing for his existence by saying "This happened because of God."

He didnt come of nothing, mind you, that a pre-universe is without dimensions, which means there is no time. Eternity. An O.O.O. Force could probably exist there.

What was God doing before he created time, and if there was no time how did he come to make the decision to create time?

the Goddess does not expect sacrifices, just that we love and respect her, and her children, which is ourselves and the creation around us. performing sacrifices is not respectful, it is a disgusting act and not one to be joked about. so dont be a smart arse.

With all due respect, if you're offended so easily this isn't the place to be

If I go walk in a park, and see nature all around me, it is evidence of the existence of a park not God

it is evidence of god, and the goddess, they are in everything around us. if u can not feel that then i pity u

He didnt come of nothing, mind you, that a pre-universe is without dimensions, which means there is no time. Eternity. An O.O.O. Force could probably exist there.

how do you know? were you there? Even scientists don't know what happened at the big bang. To say it happened just one way and that it could not happen any other way is assinine.

There can be situations where there is no evidence for or against something. It's not a contradiction. I can say that there are muslim aliens on a distant planet. You can't provide evidence that they don't exist. I can't provide evidence that they do.

Yes you can. Finding a planet that has these aliens is 'evidence.' Evidence is a fact that supports your theory. So since this planet really exists it is a fact, then since you now have a planet in your theory it is supportive. Instant Evidence, this evidence is doubted, but it still is evidence.

The evidence against God is usually just evidence against the Bible, or specific religions, little exists that suggests there is no God in one form or another.

Mostly it's "If God exists, this would not have happened," which is as logical as arguing for his existence by saying "This happened because of God."

there is evidence that the existence of a personal and volitional perfect being is an impossibility

Yes you can. Finding a planet that has these aliens is 'evidence.' Evidence is a fact that supports your theory. So since this planet really exists it is a fact, then since you now have a planet in your theory it is supportive. Instant Evidence, this evidence is doubted, but it still is evidence.

I think you're missing his point, consider instead if I proposed that their is a species of Giraffe that is completely invisible, has no smell or sound, and you can walk through it without touching it...how could you prove that I'm lying and how would I prove that I'm not?

Now consider the same scenario but read Giraffe as God

Hey - how about we all take the time and energy we're putting into proving whether God does or does not exist, and channel it into helping the survivors to minimize the death in the aftermath of the tragedy.

how do you know? were you there? Even scientists don't know what happened at the big bang. To say it happened just one way and that it could not happen any other way is assinine.

I realize this, please stop using this idea. You are stating the obvious. I am making hypothesises and placing possible evidence to support them. To say "How do you know?" is assinine. Under your philosophy, science is a hoax, because "How do they know?" "I dont believe that!"

there is evidence that the existence of a personal and volitional perfect being is an impossibility

what is that evidence???

I think you're missing his point, consider instead if I proposed that their is a species of Giraffe that is completely invisible, has no smell or sound, and you can walk through it without touching it...how could you prove that I'm lying and how would I prove that I'm not?

Now consider the same scenario but read Giraffe as God

Not a complete analogy. I would watch the trees to see if they eat anything and if they did I would have evidence.

it is evidence of god, and the goddess, they are in everything around us. if u can not feel that then i pity u

I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice that there has been no preaching so far and little sarcasm from either side.

This thread has so far consisted of unusually logical argument...if you're going to be upset by sacrifice references don't seize the moral high ground and pity us.

I think you're missing his point, consider instead if I proposed that their is a species of Giraffe that is completely invisible, has no smell or sound, and you can walk through it without touching it...how could you prove that I'm lying and how would I prove that I'm not?

Now consider the same scenario but read Giraffe as God

I was about to use a similar example but yours is very good :)

Not a complete analogy. I would watch the trees to see if they eat anything and if they did I would have evidence.

who's to say they eat trees? what if they are photosynthetic? The analogy stands. You cannot prove or disprove this girraffe just as much as you can prove or disprove a god.

Not a complete analogy. I would watch the trees to see if they eat anything and if they did I would have evidence.

you're arguing semantics now...
continuing this train of thought, I could say that the Giraffe doesn't eat, thus the lack of leaf eating proves nothing.

Can we drop this analogy before we start debating the existence of invisible giraffes?

...photosynthetic was an interesting choice

who's to say they eat trees? what if they are photosynthetic? The analogy stands. You cannot prove or disprove this girraffe just as much as you can prove or disprove a god.

Exactly my point. That was not stated, I can do what I want in search for evidence, as long as it is withen the borders you set in the analogy. Your job was to make a complete analogy that made the giraffes impossible to detect. In a philosophy debate you would have been crushed. Ill let it go for now to avoid petty arguments.

I realize this, please stop using this idea. You are stating the obvious. I am making hypothesises and placing possible evidence to support them. To say "How do you know?" is assinine. Under your philosophy, science is a hoax, because "How do they know?" "I dont believe that!"
wrong. Scientific findings can be tested to PROVE if it is infact true or not. You don't have to believe it but the scientific method weeds out eroneous claims. You cannot test whether or not god exists so he lies outside the scientific method. Thus is why there is no proof to support he exists.

who's to say they eat trees? what if they are photosynthetic? The analogy stands. You cannot prove or disprove this girraffe just as much as you can prove or disprove a god.
invisible giraffes cannot be photosynthetic...
so
you got served.

what is that evidence???

Think about it...a perfect omnipotent being who is both volitional and personal...thats like being a limited unlimited being

Exactly my point. That was not stated, I can do what I want in search for evidence, as long as it is withen the borders you set in the analogy. Your job was to make a complete analogy that made the giraffes impossible to detect. In a philosophy debate you would have been crushed. Ill let it go for now to avoid petty arguments.

In a philosophical debate you could very well have been crushed for assuming that the Giraffe does eat leaves when it was not explicitly stated.

who's to say they eat trees? what if they are photosynthetic? The analogy stands. You cannot prove or disprove this girraffe just as much as you can prove or disprove a god.

Yes but this is not the purpose of the debate. Debate is so one may check and fully understand his logical standards and make logical thought and improve ideas. We may never come to a conclusion, but thats not what the debates for, it is to [i]try[i] and come to one.

Heres a qoute to remember:
"A ship is safest in harbor, but thats not what a ship is made for."

In a philosophical debate you could very well have been crushed for assuming that the Giraffe does eat leaves when it was not explicitly stated.

No, I do not have the burden of proof. He does. He sets the standards. Therefore I can do whatever I want as long as it is in his standards.

Exactly my point. That was not stated, I can do what I want in search for evidence, as long as it is withen the borders you set in the analogy.
Just as you do what you want in search of evidence of god and find none? Seems like we agree on something then.


Your job was to make a complete analogy that made the giraffes impossible to detect. In a philosophy debate you would have been crushed. Ill let it go for now to avoid petty arguments.

oh I feel so honored that you're letting this go :) I wasn't aware that my analogy had to be so thought out in the 2 minutes I had to type that out. Thank you for showing me that god exists by crushing my analogy *sarcasm*

the earth is not a goddess. There is as much proof in that as there is in the christian god.

i never said the earth was a goddess. it is the physical manifestation of the goddess. oh by the way there is proof. ask anyone who practises magick. or has the ability to detect energies. and i dont wish to preach, though i guess im female so im doomed to turn into my mother... :(

No, I do not have the burden of proof. He does. He sets the standards. Therefore I can do whatever I want as long as it is in his standards.

Just as you set the standards of a god, no?

No, I do not have the burden of proof. He does. He sets the standards. Therefore I can do whatever I want as long as it is in his standards.

Nevertheless, the fact that leaves have been eaten from a tree does not prove the existence of the hypothetical giraffe, as it could have been anything that did it...the analogy is therefore sound.

You are assuming that we exist in a world where only the giraffe eats leaves

wrong. Scientific findings can be tested to PROVE if it is infact true or not. You don't have to believe it but the scientific method weeds out eroneous claims. You cannot test whether or not god exists so he lies outside the scientific method. Thus is why there is no proof to support he exists.

The Scientific Method cannot be proven, why? Science believes in proving Things through it. But we cannot test the Scientific Method with Scientific Method can we? Thats contradictory.

Just as you set the standards of a god, no?

That was uncalled for.

Nevertheless, the fact that leaves have been eaten from a tree does not prove the existence of the hypothetical giraffe, as it could have been anything that did it...the analogy is therefore sound.

You are assuming that we exist in a world where only the giraffe eats

Wrong. The purpose of the analogy was to make sure *NO* evidence was found of the giraffe. Even though the leaves are petty evidence, it is evidence. The Analogy Is Dead. lol, its like a vollyball game, the ball goes from one half to the other.

That was uncalled for.

No it wasn't. You believe in god, isn't it your obligation to provide evidence to support your claim?

i never said the earth was a goddess. it is the physical manifestation of the goddess. oh by the way there is proof. ask anyone who practises magick. or has the ability to detect energies. and i dont wish to preach, though i guess im female so im doomed to turn into my mother... :(

presenting evidence isn't preaching, I'm interested to see the proof

No it wasn't. You believe in god, isn't it your obligation to provide evidence to support your claim?

When I said it was uncalled for, I meant it was rude and came off a little harsh on my side. And I dont have to support my claim, Christianity isnt science. But I choose to have a healthy debate with you gentlemen/women.

i never said the earth was a goddess. it is the physical manifestation of the goddess. oh by the way there is proof. ask anyone who practises magick. or has the ability to detect energies. and i dont wish to preach, though i guess im female so im doomed to turn into my mother... :(

I don't mean to offend you but I believe in magick as much as I believe in the easter bunny. And you aren't doomed to turn into anyone but yourself.

Wrong. The purpose of the analogy was to make sure *NO* evidence was found of the giraffe. Even though the leaves are petty evidence, it is evidence. The Analogy Is Dead. lol, its like a vollyball game, the ball goes from one half to the other.

No, I was making the point that no conclusive evidence exists, there may be something that can be interpreted as proof of God like a natural disaster just as the leaves might be proof of the giraffe, but they cannot be used to prove conclusively that they exist or don't.

You're getting bogged down in the analogy and avoiding the point though. Think of something that works for you, accordians, ninjas, potatoes, or whatever

When I said it was uncalled for, I meant it was rude and came off a little harsh on my side. And I dont have to support my claim, Christianity isnt science. But I choose to have a healthy debate with you gentlemen/women.
And because you don't (can't) support your claim, this argument will never be resolved. So what's the point in continuing it?
I'll apologize if it came across as rude. It was suppose to be a quip more than anything.

When I said it was uncalled for, I meant it was rude and came off a little harsh on my side. And I dont have to support my claim, Christianity isnt science. But I choose to have a healthy debate with you gentlemen/women.

I'm not sure how it was offensive, I think the point was in this debate its up to you to decide on the precise details of the God in question so that we may debate his existence.

Christianity isn't science and therefore does not need justification is a dangerous concept.

has anyone ever heard of a taniwha?

No, I was making the point that no conclusive evidence exists, there may be something that can be interpreted as proof of God like a natural disaster just as the leaves might be proof of the giraffe, but they cannot be used to prove conclusively that they exist or don't.

You're getting bogged down in the analogy and avoiding the point though. Think of something that works for you, accordians, ninjas, potatoes, or whatever

I understand, and I said that a while ago. But the debate continued, for some reason. And considering that the leaves disappered to nowhere, that would substatially increase the meaning of the evidence, and prove that something caused it. That you cannot deny.

I understand, and I said that a while ago. But the debate continued, for some reason. And considering that the leaves disappered to nowhere, that would substatially increase the meaning of the evidence, and prove that something caused it. That you cannot deny.

There does seem to be some confusion, i completely agree that the leaves disappearing indicates that something is happening, but it cannot prove that it is the giraffe that is responsible. Similarly, the occurence of a natural disaster indicates something, but not necessarily that God did it.

I'm not sure how it was offensive, I think the point was in this debate its up to you to decide on the precise details of the God in question so that we may debate his existence.

Christianity isn't science and therefore does not need justification is a dangerous concept.

Not nessicerly. I know Im going off topic here, but what the heck, You should do Zen, its not relgious. But it is the most interesting stuff out there. I was contemplating a Zen Koan(riddle), the other day. And man, it was ingenius. There riddles are normally made to have no answer and the more you try to solve it the more you cant find the answer. And it works, well. Eventually you just reach the point of nothing. Really, really interesting stuff though.

I don't mean to offend you but I believe in magick as much as I believe in the easter bunny. And you aren't doomed to turn into anyone but yourself.
no ofense taken tho it does exist. magick that is. the easter bunny is simply a symbol of creating new life.

In case you didn't notice, the Bible is classified non-fiction by the library of conggress. It was time to go for those people... It's sad, but true... This world is a sinful place.

There does seem to be some confusion, i completely agree that the leaves disappearing indicates that something is happening, but it cannot prove that it is the giraffe that is responsible. Similarly, the occurence of a natural disaster indicates something, but not necessarily that God did it.

I never said The giraffe did it. I said something did it.

has anyone ever heard of a taniwha?

fraid I haven't... what is that?

*only reads first post*

What makes you think God wouldn't kill ~million people seemingly at random? how many people does She let live on this planet without having them all killed by meteorites, or cosmic radiation, or aliens? It's a wonder there's anything in this universe, nay, even on this planet, that even begins to enter into our comprehension, let alone ability to control. If God wants to cause random tidal waves that kill, maim and horrificly disrupt the lives of millions, then thats none of your business. You should be grateful that She has granted you existence in the first place.

:p

no ofense taken tho it does exist. magick that is. the easter bunny is simply a symbol of creating new life.

I'm on the fence with the magick debate, but would like to see the proof of its existence, how is the easter bunny proof?

In case you didn't notice, the Bible is classified non-fiction by the library of conggress. It was time to go for those people... It's sad, but true... This world is a sinful place.
There are some historic *facts* that cannot be disputed (such as the wars and some of the names and events are found in other sources) so there is some non-fiction within the bible. But to claim it was divinely written holds as much water as if it was written by men smoking opium(or whatever drug they had back then).

In case you didn't notice, the Bible is classified non-fiction by the library of conggress. It was time to go for those people... It's sad, but true... This world is a sinful place.

The Koran and Bhavagad-Gita is also classifed as non-fiction by the LoC , so i guess they must be true

I Classify myself as a Christian, why?

Do I believe and trust what is written in the bible? Hell no
Do I believe that I must do everything that the bible tells me to do? No way

Why then?

Because I believe parts of the bible that tell us how to treat are fellow wo/men.
I feel that the bible does have a lot of crap in it but parts about forgiveness, politeness and love can work.

I believe that some Christian values work. I do not believe that the Christian story had to have actually happen, perhaps some of it did, and I feel it’s not important.

Who knows? Perhaps god isn't perfect, why should he be? Because Religious texts say so? I would have hoped that mankind would have the sense to see that not all written text is true.

People think differently, people have different goals in life, what one person views as "as-good-as-it-gets" is another person’s hell. This naturally creates conflict.

It is my belief that there is no such thing as perfection.

Life, in my opinion, is what we make of it. My plan for life is to live life well and in doing so make other people happy too, as I have no pleasure in putting people down.

I'll live life well, perhaps I'll die in a natural disaster or by another "cruel" way, I'll try to reduce my chances of that happening put I personally think that putting faith in god is useless.

If there is no such thing as perfection perhaps we need to make do. We shouldn't blame god for things that people are to blame nor which happens because of nature. Just because this recent event occurred doesn't mean a higher being doesn't exist. We should do something to help ourselves, to protect ourselves and stop expecting to be shielded from the horrors of life.

Perhaps we need to rethink, to get rid of the stereotype "god loves and cares for us" image, and think "why do we exist", does it have to always be linked to god?

I know what I say may have huge holes, but I just wanted to explain my views. Perhaps I am wrong. Of course I'm not forcing my views on anyone; everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I hope to hear people arguing against me :)

I highly encourage you all to stop trying to understand God and God's ways. One of the main principles, or maybe the main principle of all religions is that God is all-powerful, and works in ways that we can not understand. God does things that are on a level that we can not even comprehend, and we should not try to. Everything is part of God's plan.

I always love these arguments. We are just supposed to sit there are accept that God loves us and to have faith. Real convenient for the true believers... it always gives you a way out of a discussion. Here is some proof for you; more people have been killed under a banner of religion than for any other reason. All you religious zelots scare the hell out of me. You are the same folks who are murdering abortion doctors while waving the banner of religion and faith in front of everyone's face and we are supposed to accept it and understand murder in any form.

Note: I do not mean to imply Susa is out murdering anyone... I was just generalizing.

I always love these arguments. We are just supposed to sit there are accept that God loves us and to have faith. Real convenient for the true believers... it always gives you a way out of a discussion. Here is some proof for you; more people have been killed under a banner of religion than for any other reason. All you religious zelots scare the hell out of me. You are the same folks who are murdering abortion doctors while waving the banner of religion and faith in front of everyone's face and we are supposed to accept it and understand murder in any form.

Just because the religious nuts are nuts (by definition) doesn't mean that God doesn't exist and doesn't love us.

I completely agree with you about the religious zealots who shout pro-life and kill people who don't agree.

i'm surprised, for people who are so sure that there is not a God, you are spending a lot of your time trying to convince others of it while criticizing some religions for doing the same thing. how does it harm you that there are millions, including myself, that believe in God? and in response to an earlier post, i wasn't blaming all bad things on chance and good things on God -- i was trying to illustrate that i believe that both good and bad things happen, but so many good things miraculously happen that i can't believer that they all come for chance. like the 20 day old infant that was reunited with his mother in india after floating on a mattress down a river for a day.

i'm surprised, for people who are so sure that there is not a God, you are spending a lot of your time trying to convince others of it while criticizing some religions for doing the same thing. how does it harm you that there are millions, including myself, that believe in God? and in response to an earlier post, i wasn't blaming all bad things on chance and good things on God -- i was trying to illustrate that i believe that both good and bad things happen, but so many good things miraculously happen that i can't believer that they all come for chance. like the 20 day old infant that was reunited with his mother in india after floating on a mattress down a river for a day.

my point is, you say that a 20 day old infant is reunited with his/her mother through divine intervention. But when 78,000 people (and rising) die, that's chance...are the odds not equally good that the mother found the baby by chance and God instigated the tsunami?

my point is, you say that a 20 day old infant is reunited with his/her mother through divine intervention. But when 78,000 people (and rising) die, that's chance...are the odds not equally good that the mother found the baby by chance and God instigated the tsunami?
i must agree with the first part at least
i dont believe god does much divine intervention these days

i must agree with the first part at least
i dont believe god does much divine intervention these days

can't imagine he has much else to do...I'd have a great time if I was God

can't imagine he has much else to do...I'd have a great time if I was God
he could play checkers with satan
or halo

he could play checkers with satan
or halo

who do you think would win? Would it make a difference whether they played checkers or halo?

Asia Toll Nears 77,000 As Aid Arrives (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20041229/ap_on_re_as/quake_tsunami) (AP) - Cargo planes touched down with aid Wednesday, bearing everything from lentils to water purifiers to help survivors facing the threat of epidemic after this week's quake-tsunami catastrophe. The first Indonesian military teams reached the devastated west coast of Sumatra island, finding thousands of bodies and increasing the death toll across 12 nations to nearly 77,000. The international Red Cross warned that the toll could eventually surpass 100,000.

Hardly proof. Let's begin by proving that you exist.

Hardly proof. Let's begin by proving that you exist.

lol, good move

...if i'd only thought of that 27 pages ago

2 nhilistic beginners: i care as much about those ppl dying as u do but if u r an atheist then u have a bigger problem. First off if we all just evolved from sum ape or eventually out of a pure accident involving chemicals and so we're all just advanced organisms that evolved purely by chance then how do u see the fact that they died as a loss. then isnt it jus like stepping on a bunch of ants?

Firstly, God would win the checkers game since he would know Lucifers move before he even made it. Secondly, how does this catastrophe prove that God doesn't exist? We put ourselves into this position by not following God and although following God won't make everything in the world right it would be a start. We brought this upon ourselves 6008 years ago (give or take a few years) with Adam and Eve. They had a choice, follow God's rules or not. They chose not and this led to us. Many people have still chosen not to. It's not the Creators fault that we ruined things, it's our fault. We ruined it, and we deserve all the blame, we don't even deserve a second chance but it's because God is benevolent, merciful and caring that he has. Tell me how long is 70 years compared to an eternity? Nothing. God gave us a chance to avoid Hell and it is still there. That doorway to Heaven is still open to everyone. You can die physically but once. So where will you go when you die? To more torment? Or to peace?

Firstly, God would win the checkers game since he would know Lucifers move before he even made it.
it's not about winning or losing, it's about playing the game

Here is your god! (http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.mv)

it's not about winning or losing, it's about playing the game

I agree with you but how could God lose if he knew the game was going to take place from the very begining, what moves Lucifer was going to make, how God himself was going to counter the move, etc. It's still just impossible for God to lose according to what I beleive.

Here is your god! (http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.mv)

I have a feeling you have a very poor view of Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc.

I have a feeling you have a very poor view of Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc.
Poor view?

LOL that is an understatement. That webpage describes your average religion very well.

Why any adult need an imaginary friend called god is beyond me.

Poor view?

LOL that is an understatement. That webpage describes your average religion very well.

Why any adult need an imaginary friend called god is beyond me.

Then why would anyone need an 'imaginary' you? Without a God or Supernatural being, existance cannot be proven.

And by the by, that web site doesn't describe your average religion since there is no real average between religions. Secondly, athaeism is a religion which I'm geussing you are.

Here is your god! (http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.mv)

That is so cool, i am going to use that for my reverse-evangelism

That is so cool, i am going to use that for my reverse-evangelism

How? All that does is simply make people think you have a horrible view of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. But yet what do you think atheism is? That website I think describes atheism pretty well. All me, nothing for you. That is what atheism suggests anyways. That the I is more importent then the WE.

Asia Toll Nears 77,000 As Aid Arrives (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20041229/ap_on_re_as/quake_tsunami) (AP) - Cargo planes touched down with aid Wednesday, bearing everything from lentils to water purifiers to help survivors facing the threat of epidemic after this week's quake-tsunami catastrophe. The first Indonesian military teams reached the devastated west coast of Sumatra island, finding thousands of bodies and increasing the death toll across 12 nations to nearly 77,000. The international Red Cross warned that the toll could eventually surpass 100,000.

Actually, it may be proof that God does exist. This could be the beginning of Armageddon as discussed in Revelations. One of the things that God says will happen is there will be great earthquakes. This definitely qualifies as a great earthquake, my friend.

Then why would anyone need an 'imaginary' you? Without a God or Supernatural being, existance cannot be proven.

And by the by, that web site doesn't describe your average religion since there is no real average between religions. Secondly, athaeism is a religion which I'm geussing you are.

Of course you don't see the website as the rest of us does, your shutters are closed.

Atheism a religion? LOL You better back that up if you think so.

Here is what www.dictionary.com says about religion:

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


Please explain how an atheist fits into this...

Of course you don't see the website as the rest of us does, your shutters are closed.

Atheism a religion? LOL You better back that up if you think so.

Here is what www.dictionary.com says about religion:


Please explain how an atheist fits into this...

Firstly, athiesm is the belief that there is no God. It's a belief which can also be called a religion. Secondly, I hate how the world tends to define things because sometimes it isn't even the right definition, such as Christianity. The "worlds" definition is anyone that beliefs in Jesus Christ essentially.

Of course you don't see the website as the rest of us does, your shutters are closed.

Atheism a religion? LOL You better back that up if you think so.

Here is what www.dictionary.com says about religion:


Please explain how an atheist fits into this...

Your shutters are probably also shut however. Secondly, the world tends to define things wrong and I have a feeling I'm not going to get anywhere with convincing you are I?

or doesn't necessarily favor humans...hinduism strikes again!!

I don't believe that a god don't exists, I have simply never seen anything that can back up a claim that a god exists. Not a single verifyable proof, nada, zero , zilch.

There is no belief involved in it. That is something that religious people and christians in particular have a problem understanding.

You guys claim there is a god, you prove it. There is not a single proof of a god or a devil or angels or nothing. I don't have to beleive anything.

How? All that does is simply make people think you have a horrible view of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. But yet what do you think atheism is? That website I think describes atheism pretty well. All me, nothing for you. That is what atheism suggests anyways. That the I is more importent then the WE.

Yes, it is all about me. It is my life, so yes it is about me. I cannot live anyone elses life for them and they can't live mine. No one can show me how to live i have to figure that out for myself, no one should tell me what i should think, because that wouldn't be me making the decision for my life. I am responsible for who I am.

No, this is actually an expression of god's love for humans in some weird way that I can't explain. After all, he works in mysterious ways. Also, he just gave those people an express ticket to heaven, and all the injured and those who lost friends and family now have an opportunity to take comfort in god's love and mercy. It's win/win!
being swept away by a bigassed wall of water thrown against a brickwall and then drowning..thats gods way of sayign he loves me....thats some mighty love there.....

i must agree with the first part at least
i dont believe god does much divine intervention these days
Actually God intervenes everyday, all day. The problem is that most people, even most Christians are under the false assumption that God only intervenes when something goes "wrong". Nothing ever goes "wrong" -- everything goes precisely and exactly as it was ordained before the foundation of the world. Where was God when the thousands (and more to come from the repurcussions) of people died? He was right there killing them with the Tsunami. It is His right to kill sinners. We are all sinners, justly deserving his displeasure and wrath. The wages of sin is death and he justly rewards us with what we have earned by our actions and inactions. Oh but what about the "innocent" babies and the embiciles? They are sinners just as much as you and all and ALL babies will ALWAYS grow up to be at emnity with God until and unless He intervenes and changes their hearts, in the same manner as He changed the heart of the wandering idolotor Abraham about four-odd thousand years ago. God has compassion on whom He wills to have compassion and He hardens whom He wills to harden. The hardening is not something that those who are hardened do not want anyway. We all would be in that condition if God did not intervene. Daily God brings in yet another number of his people into fellowship with Christ -- everyone whose names ar written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. None less and no more.

God does not merely look down the corridor of time and "know" what things men will do. Only that which is foreordained can truly be foreknown. This is the Biblical principle and as God would have it, it answers exactly what we need to know about God and man, sin, salvation and damnation.

God owes nothing to anyone. We owe God everything. So, when God kills a bunch of sinners this is what is happening. He is shown as being just in bringing perfect justice to guilty people. He is shown as merciful by saving some of those people to himself. He is shown as righteous by sending the rest to their just deserts in everlasting torment. And all of this to the praise of His glory. All things, whether good or evil, work together for the glory of God and for the salvation of His elect. the true Israel from every tribe, tongue and nation.

King Jesus the Lord rules today. Repent and kiss the Son, lest He be angered and destroy you in His wrath. But He is patient and kind to everyone for whom He died. He is also patient with those and good to those who are destined for wrath.

Choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.

I don't believe that a god don't exists, I have simply never seen anything that can back up a claim that a god exists. Not a single verifyable proof, nada, zero , zilch.

There is no belief involved in it. That is something that religious people and christians in particular have a problem understanding.

You guys claim there is a god, you prove it. There is not a single proof of a god or a devil or angels or nothing. I don't have to beleive anything.
12 year olds shouldn't be allowed to post.

Exactly. What did those people do to deserve that kind of sh*t? Caring, benevolent God my ass.

Everyone sins. That's what they did.

If God wasn't benevolent he could have let everyone die when Noah was around.

God has a plan. Everything happens for a reason.

How do you know that some of those people weren't murderers? Theives? Rapists?

I don't believe that a god don't exists, I have simply never seen anything that can back up a claim that a god exists. Not a single verifyable proof, nada, zero , zilch.

There is no belief involved in it. That is something that religious people and christians in particular have a problem understanding.

You guys claim there is a god, you prove it. There is not a single proof of a god or a devil or angels or nothing. I don't have to beleive anything.
Can you believe in yourself?

12 year olds shouldn't be allowed to post.

Agreed.

Look kid, a couple of years ago I was 12 years old. I seriously considered converting to Islam because I was trying to find myself. I found a website telling about Islam and how to convert to it, and it was so convincing and I so convincable that I seriously considered it.

Then, I realized the mistake I was making, and became a better Christian. Today, I go to church every oppurtunity I get and pray to God every night and thank Him for the blessings He has given to me, even though I turned my back on Him when I was 12.

You will learn.

Everyone sins. That's what they did.

If God wasn't benevolent he could have let everyone die when Noah was around.

God has a plan. Everything happens for a reason.

How do you know that some of those people weren't murderers? Theives? Rapists?

Agreed. This could be one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse at work, beginning the punishing of the sinful Earth.

The innocent people who died will just get to meet their Lord a little sooner than most.

Actually God intervenes everyday, all day. The problem is that most people, even most Christians are under the false assumption that God only intervenes when something goes "wrong". Nothing ever goes "wrong" -- everything goes precisely and exactly as it was ordained before the foundation of the world. Where was God when the thousands (and more to come from the repurcussions) of people died? He was right there killing them with the Tsunami. It is His right to kill sinners. We are all sinners, justly deserving his displeasure and wrath. The wages of sin is death and he justly rewards us with what we have earned by our actions and inactions. Oh but what about the "innocent" babies and the embiciles? They are sinners just as much as you and all and ALL babies will ALWAYS grow up to be at emnity with God until and unless He intervenes and changes their hearts, in the same manner as He changed the heart of the wandering idolotor Abraham about four-odd thousand years ago. God has compassion on whom He wills to have compassion and He hardens whom He wills to harden. The hardening is not something that those who are hardened do not want anyway. We all would be in that condition if God did not intervene. Daily God brings in yet another number of his people into fellowship with Christ -- everyone whose names ar written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. None less and no more.

God does not merely look down the corridor of time and "know" what things men will do. Only that which is foreordained can truly be foreknown. This is the Biblical principle and as God would have it, it answers exactly what we need to know about God and man, sin, salvation and damnation.

God owes nothing to anyone. We owe God everything. So, when God kills a bunch of sinners this is what is happening. He is shown as being just in bringing perfect justice to guilty people. He is shown as merciful by saving some of those people to himself. He is shown as righteous by sending the rest to their just deserts in everlasting torment. And all of this to the praise of His glory. All things, whether good or evil, work together for the glory of God and for the salvation of His elect. the true Israel from every tribe, tongue and nation.

King Jesus the Lord rules today. Repent and kiss the Son, lest He be angered and destroy you in His wrath. But He is patient and kind to everyone for whom He died. He is also patient with those and good to those who are destined for wrath.

Choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.
Egads. That's a sickening attitude.

Agreed. This could be one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse at work, beginning the punishing of the sinful Earth.

The innocent people who died will just get to meet their Lord a little sooner than most.
There are no innocent people -- only sinners. Some sinners are forgiven and the rest are left in their sins where they want to be anyhow. Christ died for particular sinners, though not for all sinners ,but certainly not for the "innocent".

Egads. That's a sickening attitude.
That would be the typical God-hating response.

Actually God intervenes everyday, all day. The problem is that most people, even most Christians are under the false assumption that God only intervenes when something goes "wrong". Nothing ever goes "wrong" -- everything goes precisely and exactly as it was ordained before the foundation of the world. Where was God when the thousands (and more to come from the repurcussions) of people died? He was right there killing them with the Tsunami. It is His right to kill sinners. We are all sinners, justly deserving his displeasure and wrath. The wages of sin is death and he justly rewards us with what we have earned by our actions and inactions. Oh but what about the "innocent" babies and the embiciles? They are sinners just as much as you and all and ALL babies will ALWAYS grow up to be at emnity with God until and unless He intervenes and changes their hearts, in the same manner as He changed the heart of the wandering idolotor Abraham about four-odd thousand years ago. God has compassion on whom He wills to have compassion and He hardens whom He wills to harden. The hardening is not something that those who are hardened do not want anyway. We all would be in that condition if God did not intervene. Daily God brings in yet another number of his people into fellowship with Christ -- everyone whose names ar written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. None less and no more.

God does not merely look down the corridor of time and "know" what things men will do. Only that which is foreordained can truly be foreknown. This is the Biblical principle and as God would have it, it answers exactly what we need to know about God and man, sin, salvation and damnation.

God owes nothing to anyone. We owe God everything. So, when God kills a bunch of sinners this is what is happening. He is shown as being just in bringing perfect justice to guilty people. He is shown as merciful by saving some of those people to himself. He is shown as righteous by sending the rest to their just deserts in everlasting torment. And all of this to the praise of His glory. All things, whether good or evil, work together for the glory of God and for the salvation of His elect. the true Israel from every tribe, tongue and nation.

King Jesus the Lord rules today. Repent and kiss the Son, lest He be angered and destroy you in His wrath. But He is patient and kind to everyone for whom He died. He is also patient with those and good to those who are destined for wrath.

Choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.

Amen!

That would be the typical God-hating response.
Funny; I'd say the same thing about you.

There are no innocent people -- only sinners. Some sinners are forgiven and the rest are left in their sins where they want to be anyhow. Christ died for particular sinners, though not for all sinners ,but certainly not for the "innocent".

True...do you believe in the Rapture?

Exactly. What did those people do to deserve that kind of sh*t? Caring, benevolent God my ass.

Or perhaps the Christian God does exist, He's just hypocritical as all hell.

True...do you believe in the Rapture?

Isn't the Rapture a fairly now concept to Christianianty? Can the word be found in the bible? Anyway I don't believe in it.

I am an atheist, but I understand why some people want religion in thier lives, they want to belong to something, or feel protected, or feel loved in a harsh world.

However that said, I don't understand how people can believe in a directly intervening god, especially one who causes disasters like this. Nothing and no-one caused the earthquake, it was random, a force of nature, it has no feelings of love, or hatred, or mercy.

As to people who are saying that the quake was god's punishment for sinning: you are sick. Sick sick sick sick. You are only one step better than the suicide bombers who killed thousands of poeple for not believing in thier god. if you can look at the devastation and the misery, if you can hear the sobs of mothers who will never see their children alive again, and listen to the stories of people torn away from their loved ones arms, if you can do all this and feel only that it was "god's will", that it was right or just ina ny way. You are sick. at leats use your religion for something useful, like saying "it is od's will that we help these peopel"

Isn't the Rapture a fairly now concept to Christianianty? Can the word be found in the bible? Anyway I don't believe in it.

Yes, it is a fairly new concept. It does not specifically mention it in the Bible, but many Christians believe in it.

Yes, it is a fairly new concept. It does not specifically mention it in the Bible, but many Christians believe in it.

I have never been able to understand why peope have taken to this idea. It just seems to me that if Jesus thought it was an important principle associated with His return he would have spoken of it. He did spend a great deal of time speaking of His return.

I have never been able to understand why peope have taken to this idea. It just seems to me that if Jesus thought it was an important principle associated with His return he would have spoken of it. He did spend a great deal of time speaking of His return.

To be honest, I don't understand it either. I just believe it because I was taught it, and won't be surprised if it doesn't happen.

I am an atheist, but I understand why some people want religion in thier lives, they want to belong to something, or feel protected, or feel loved in a harsh world.

However that said, I don't understand how people can believe in a directly intervening god, especially one who causes disasters like this. Nothing and no-one caused the earthquake, it was random, a force of nature, it has no feelings of love, or hatred, or mercy.

As to people who are saying that the quake was god's punishment for sinning: you are sick. Sick sick sick sick. You are only one step better than the suicide bombers who killed thousands of poeple for not believing in thier god. if you can look at the devastation and the misery, if you can hear the sobs of mothers who will never see their children alive again, and listen to the stories of people torn away from their loved ones arms, if you can do all this and feel only that it was "god's will", that it was right or just ina ny way. You are sick. at leats use your religion for something useful, like saying "it is od's will that we help these peopel"

I don't know why this disaster happen. If you believe in God, as I do, then you believe that ultimetaly everthing comes from God. I believe that the earth shifted and people died. I don't blame God; or, sciensits for not perdicting the earthquake. Perhaps, if we didn't spend so much time, money etc on fighting religious, racial, tribal, economic, nationalist wars we could put our time and money into science and find solutions to the worlds problems.

Then why would anyone need an 'imaginary' you? Without a God or Supernatural being, existance cannot be proven.

wrong. Existence is proven because we are sentient. (we can question our own existence but by doing so we prove our own existence). We're the only sentient beings we know to exist.

I don't know why this disaster happen. If you believe in God, as I do, then you believe that ultimetaly everthing comes from God. I believe that the earth shifted and people died. I don't blame God; or, sciensits for not perdicting the earthquake. Perhaps, if we didn't spend so much time, money etc on fighting religious, racial, tribal, economic, nationalist wars we could put our time and money into science and find solutions to the worlds problems.
agree 100% with the bolded lines. But as long as there are followers of allah, jehovah, christ, shiva, etc... this will never happen.
Look at the middle east and Ireland for modern day examples of religious zealots.
Sadly, there is only ONE time when we're sll united in peace.
They've been fighting here for years, but now there's killing on the streets
while small coffins are lined up sadly, now united in defeat - Phil Collins

To be honest, I don't understand it either. I just believe it because I was taught it, and won't be surprised if it doesn't happen.

The rapture is an 18th century concept. It is never mentioned in the bible but is usually accepted by many christians as doctrine.

It is all the same old arguments. No one has anything new to say to support the existence of "god" or the denial there of. It all comes down to the same thing: belief. You either believe there is a god or that there isn't, it is as simple as that. But of course I think anyone who writes anything off as the will of a nonexistant dude in the clouds is a complete idiot incapable of facing life without the crutch of their religion. :0), but hey that is just me. :)

It is all the same old arguments. No one has anything new to say to support the existence of "god" or the denial there of. It all comes down to the same thing: belief. You either believe there is a god or that there isn't, it is as simple as that. But of course I think anyone who writes anything off as the will of a nonexistant dude in the clouds is a complete idiot incapable of facing life without the crutch of their religion. :0), but hey that is just me. :)
True enough. Greater minds than us have debated this trite argument for centuries. Why don't we all just hold hands and sing "get together". We're all human. Everyone of us.
Come on people now
smile on your brother
Everybody get together
try to love one another right now

agree 100% with the bolded lines. But as long as there are followers of allah, jehovah, christ, shiva, etc... this will never happen.
Look at the middle east and Ireland for modern day examples of religious zealots.
Sadly, there is only ONE time when we're sll united in peace.
They've been fighting here for years, but now there's killing on the streets
while small coffins are lined up sadly, now united in defeat - Phil Collins

Interesting. Allah is Arabic for God. Jehovah is a name for God from the Jewish faith. Christ is called the Son of God. Shiva is the name of a Hindu diety, I believe. And each of these traditions teach that there will come a day when the world will be united and live together in harmony.

I don't know the why of this great disaster. But if we think of WWII as a great disaster, we can find that the cause of WWII to goes directly back to WWI. At the end of WWI the world had a chance to bring long lasting peace to Europe and maybe to the rest of the world. The League of Nations was established and attempted to bring some form of international law to the world. Largely because the US failed to join--it failed. Because of this and the terribly burdensome treaties imposed on Germany, WWII was almost a foregone conclusion.

One result of WWII is the European Union. Europe was for several centuries covered in the blood of very innocent people. Out of the fire of terrible conflicts we see the forging of bonds of unity which at one time the mere mention of would have been met with loud, sustained laughter.

True enough. Greater minds than us have debated this trite argument for centuries. Why don't we all just hold hands and sing "get together". We're all human. Everyone of us.
Come on people now
smile on your brother
Everybody get together
try to love one another right now

Great song! Are you dating (as in age) yourself?

Great song! Are you dating (as in age) yourself?
lol I'm 26...it was waaaaaay before my time :p my exposer to it was on that 90's pepsi/coke commercial where the two guys (one a coke guy and the other a pepsi guy) sit at a bar and share a pepsi. Then when the pepsi guy wants his pepsi back the coke guy refused... and they started a brawl over it.

Interesting. Allah is Arabic for God. Jehovah is a name for God from the Jewish faith. Christ is called the Son of God. Shiva is the name of a Hindu diety, I believe. And each of these traditions teach that there will come a day when the world will be united and live together in harmony.


We can only hope that day will come. But all religions have failed in that department thus far so I won't hold my breath.

We can only hope that day will come. But all religions have failed in that department thus far so I won't hold my breath.

It is true that today all religions have failed in the Peace Dept. But at the time when each religion was at its height or age there was a great flowering of culture. The easist example is Islam; true the Islamist armies did conquer many peoples and regions it was, at first it was strictly defensive in nature. In the lands that the Muslims conquered societies were diverese and very open. Judiasm, for example, was given great freedom to thrive and flourish. Islam encouraged science and eduction. Religious and racial harmony were the norm. Eventually, corruption set in; the Mullah's began to exercise greater and greater authority; the words of Mohammed were changed from a thing of beauty to instruments meant to control. Then in 1844, nearly the same date predicted by Miller as the time when Christ would return, the Sun of Divine Reality appeared on earth again.

Why do these have to be the work of god and not the work of human beings? Can we not point to the people's actions themselves and say humans are the ones who do those acts of heroism, sacrifice, love, etc... I think you really take away the true value of their works if you point to god and say "this is his will". There is NO proof that there is a god so I will not merely "assume" that this is by design.
Lastly, if we have free will, how is god influencing people to do these things?

It is widely believed that God lives in all of us, which means that our actions as human beings are also reflections of Him. Why do human beings forget that they in part create God, because we allow Him to live in us? If none of us believed in God, it's very likely a discussion like this would never happen because there would be no God to speak of. Human beings keep God alive and an influence in our lives. It wouldn't matter a whit what He did to US if we didn't accept His presence. That is why OUR will is in part God's will. Our actions are in part God's actions. He gave us choice, and we choose what to do with Him. I see human heroism as equally human and divine: compared to other living beings on this Earth, we've been granted with a consciousness that allows us to comprehend the possibilty of the divine. That is a miracle, and our actions are a miracle.

Not everyone believes this, and that's fine with me too.

I think it's easy to say "look at all the good that was done during/after this tragedy" because *you* or your loved one weren't part of that tragedy. I think it's almost comical when people say that a tragedy like this tsunami "brings us closer together". If THAT was god's plan, why do 55,000 people have to die for the rest of us to get closer? Is that the act of an onmipotent/omnibenevolent deity to kill off innocent people so others can benefit from their deaths?
There are just too many flaws in that argument.

DEPENDS on how you see things. For me, there are a few assumuptions I make when considering this sort of thing:

1) Earth is not the center of the universe, so that things that happen on Earth are part of what the universe is about. In the scope of the universe, Earth and the 125,000 people who just died on it are quite small. At best, it alerts those in the vicinity (namely, us) to something greater than ourselves. That may be a lesson in itself. Most of the arguments I've seen against God's love and presence center around the idea that the Earth and its people are of central importance. They aren't.

2) The afterlife is immense, infinite, varied, and every soul who goes to it gets what they deserve, good or bad. They have been relieved of this life for whatever is next. For most people, I believe the results will be good. Those of us left behind who are suffering or must witness suffering must choose how to give meaning to the lives of those who died. In finding that meaning, God shows Himself off in many ways. Tragedy DOES change us, one way or another.

3) Large-scale acts of nature do bring us clsoer together, because we realize we are all cramped on this rock together. I know here in China there is a palpable change when people talk of this tragedy, and that an "Asian" consciousness has emerged concerning it, at least for now. Some of the rivalries and suspicions have been put aside to deal with the devastation. That is positive.

I am personally lucky. My mother was supposed to be in Madras this month, but she wasn't able to go -- her company cancelled her trip. I emailed her and told her I loved her. I didn't have to worry about her back home in Chicago, and for that I am thankful. It was a small thing that reminded me that we DO live in cramped quarters here on Earth and we should care about each other, as we all live so close now. Many of those who died, especially in Thailand, were from Europe on winter vacation. It could have been me if I chose to go to Thailand for vacation (which I was considering before this happened.) That gives me pause, enough to want to help the human beings who were unfortunate enough to have been through this disaster. If the tragedy changes my actions as a human being in the future, then I should be grateful I have been the presence of mind to change.

Say....one person for every one that died had that change in their lives, and did something to make the world a little better.

THAT is significant. More than 125,000 people in Hong Kong have contributed over 2.5 million US dollars to help the victims in Indonesia. That is a significant amount of money, more significant in Hong Kong, which has been suffering from economic difficulty AND is not known for its generosity. That's just ONE CITY. I know that impacted me because I know what Hong Kong's like. That's significant.

That, to me, is God's legacy given to us. What we do with it is up to us. I know what *I* am going to do with it, and that's not thinking that death is meaningless, that tragedy doesn't change us, and that acts of mercy are bullshit. They're not.

I'm also going to contribute some money and supplies to the relief effort when I get to Hong Kong next week.

Ge-Ren

If god stoped all suffering and all problems in the world, would we credit it to god or to ourselfs, god works in the hearts of people that belive in him and want to help humanity if god stoped all suffering then that would make free will impossible

Asia Toll Nears 77,000 As Aid Arrives (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20041229/ap_on_re_as/quake_tsunami) (AP) - Cargo planes touched down with aid Wednesday, bearing everything from lentils to water purifiers to help survivors facing the threat of epidemic after this week's quake-tsunami catastrophe. The first Indonesian military teams reached the devastated west coast of Sumatra island, finding thousands of bodies and increasing the death toll across 12 nations to nearly 77,000. The international Red Cross warned that the toll could eventually surpass 100,000.
Proof that God doesn't exist? It is quite obvious you have yet to read the Bible. God made everything perfect. We humans spoiled that state of perfection, and evil entered the world. Mass death, though saddening, is not proof of the absence of God. We live in a broken world. Bad things happen to good people. We suffer this, because sin entered the world. Why did sin enter the world? Because we screwed up.

God's perfect world--> :D :gundge: <--Us.

No, this is actually an expression of god's love for humans in some weird way that I can't explain. After all, he works in mysterious ways. Also, he just gave those people an express ticket to heaven, and all the injured and those who lost friends and family now have an opportunity to take comfort in god's love and mercy. It's win/win!


You are insane.

lol I'm 26...it was waaaaaay before my time :p my exposer to it was on that 90's pepsi/coke commercial where the two guys (one a coke guy and the other a pepsi guy) sit at a bar and share a pepsi. Then when the pepsi guy wants his pepsi back the coke guy refused... and they started a brawl over it.

I am happy to say I bought many Jesse Colin Young albums when they first came out. I think there was more hope in world back then. Ah.....26, the age when I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah. Everything changed after that. Quit drinking, doping, found a wonderful woman. Raised three girls-- one who is Zambia, Africa right now, one who lives in New York City works for a woman's shelter with woman who have suffered abuse, and my youngest who is in her first year of college. Well, better go to bed. It is 1 am here.

Wow...this post has gone of on some wierd tangents. Anyways, to the ORIGINAL post. Life is built on Duelism: good and evil, Liberal and conservative, happy and sad, starvation and Feast, etc, etc. For a notion of "good" in the world, there must also be "evil". Without one another they cease to exist. We are fed the crap of the world. Media perpetuates evil. What of the good coming of this tragedy? The nations rising to aid this torn country. If anything, this proves God's existance. None of you were harmed, your lives are in no danger from this event. So why is it that in spite of other goods occuring in the world are you fighting over whether or not a supreme being was the cause of it or even exists at all? All it does is spark hatred amongst brothers (or sisters, I mean these terms as non-gender specific) and continue evil.
In the book of Job, the Devil all but slaughters Job. All the while he still believes in God. God watches him, and leads him to paradise. Our world has been tempted, and had havoc reaped upon by the Devil (or whatever you want to call it), thus testing us. Those that succumb to this and condemn God are now in the hands of evil.

To all of those Aethiests out there: Aeithism is the belief there is no god/religion of any kind. Religion is a set of beliefs in a god. Therefore there are no beliefs. If aethism is the belief in no religion/god, then it contradicts itself. As on post stated, contradiction is proof something can't be real. Thus aethism isn't real. It is the rationallization of someone so delusional they can't accept a being greater than themselves (humans), that takes shape outside of physical peramiters.

I was directed to a site containing "contadictions" in the Bible. First off, it was taken from the King James Version written nearly 400 years ago. Thus much of the wording differs then to now. Secondly, many of the quotes are taken from the Old to the New testament opposingly. The old Testament reflects the time before Christ, the New during and after the time of Christ. Christ came as the final prophet, bringing with him the final teachings of God. That is why there is a rift between Jews and Christians. Jews don't follow the new teachings of Christ.

I don't mean to offend any religion. I myself think that God originates in all of these religions under different names, be it Yhwh (ya-wey), abba (father), God, Lord, Allah,etc, etc.

The Problem of Evil in theology has always interested me, if there is a Good All-Powerful God who loves humanity , why does this God continuelly let evil happen to His beloved creation? And why does this God condemn these poor misguided humans to an eternity of suffering for the misdeeds or rather the unbelief they had in a finite life?


Or....all go to heaven if that is where there is no sin. Why not cut the chase and bring his beloved creations a real reason to exist?

wat does chauvenist mean? ani way i think the guy u insulted is rite. u americans hav the idea that ur a hemogeny and that u can strut around as fat, stupid overlords

why shouldnt 12 year olds be allowed to post? they have there own opinions as u do. why should theres be silenced?

physical manisfestation is absolutly correct but i dont think you'll be exactli like your mother. half of her and half of your father is usualli what happens.

There was an earthquake. This caused tsunami and lots of flooding. There's nothing there that's either good or evil. It's just that humans happen to live where it took place that makes us perceive it as 'bad'.
Blaming a natural event like that on 'God' is a lot like our distant relatives inventing 'gods' based on lightning and whatnot.
Moreover, the world doesn't suck. It just is. It's our perceptions and misperceptions that make it suck.
Let's stop blaming things on something that may or may not exist and get down to helping people.

See here

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gr5part1.html

Someone said that life with chaos, misunderstandings, joy, stupidity, suprises, suffering and all those things, is perfect. We must have sadness and happiness. Without one, they wouldn't be another.

Edit: Look at my nation's motto

So that explains everything? God works in mysterious ways? I have always thought that this kind of argument was pretty worthless.

That is exactly one half of the point. First: God gives us no visible signs of His/Her existence, let alone benevolence. Second, He/She asks us to get down on our knees and worship someone of who's actual powers or objectives we have no idea. Feudalism made more sense then this. Oh, but hey, if I were to found a new religion, I would also say that the ways of the supreme being are not to be known by any of its worshippers, so whatever happens, they'd interpret it as God doing His/Her work and feel that they are always in the company of the supreme being.

One more thing: If we live in a God-ruled world in wich the dualism of good and evil is the challenge that God has set up to keep us busy, good and evil should be a bit more evenly spread, shouldn't they? Do evil, get evil back, do good, receive your price. However, that doesn't explain why my Dad, who is one of the last great innocents, has cancer for the third time now.Is it because he's not Christian but rather Commie? Does the benevolence of God apply only to Its immediate followers?

I guess, if anything, God is up there on a soft cloud-couch watching us like a hundred trillion dollar soap opera. No offence.

That is exactly one half of the point. First: God gives us no visible signs of His/Her existence, let alone benevolence. Second, He/She asks us to get down on our knees and worship someone of who's actual powers or objectives we have no idea. Feudalism made more sense then this. Oh, but hey, if I were to found a new religion, I would also say that the ways of the supreme being are not to be known by any of its worshippers, so whatever happens, they'd interpret it as God doing His/Her work and feel that they are always in the company of the supreme being.


1) God DOES give visible signs of existance. See answered prayer, the Earth, Jesus, events in the Bible etc. If it was certian there would be no need for faith and we would take God for granted


One more thing: If we live in a God-ruled world in wich the dualism of good and evil is the challenge that God has set up to keep us busy, good and evil should be a bit more evenly spread, shouldn't they? Do evil, get evil back, do good, receive your price. However, that doesn't explain why my Dad, who is one of the last great innocents, has cancer for the third time now.Is it because he's not Christian but rather Commie? Does the benevolence of God apply only to Its immediate followers?

I guess, if anything, God is up there on a soft cloud-couch watching us like a hundred trillion dollar soap opera. No offence.

2) God never promised anyone a good life so please get the idea out of your head that it is God's job to make everyones life good, perfect and happy all the time

3) The even spread of good and evil will come at the end. See Revelation

I haven't got the time to read all this so:

"Without sorrow we don't know joy"

Que? That doesn't make any sense at all since joy is a chemical process, and I think that we can recognise endorfines pretty good, we havehad like one billion years (or maybe we were created perfect for this purpose around 7000 years ago) for training and evolution...

"This is the punishment for the thai-govenment for not telling the people of the geological findings."

And where does Banda Aceh fit in to this?

"God works in mysterious ways for the sake of our good"

But if he is ALMIGHTY, PEACEFUL and CARING this problem should have been fixed in some other way. You have to acept that you can't have the almighty and caring God in one, otherwise this wouldn't have happened.

"God doesn't want to fix everything for us, in that way he is caring."

No because almighty mean ALmighty, God would have been able to give us the experience without the tsunami if he was almighty (and loving the human race of course).

"BEND DOWN! PRES. BUSH IS COMING AGAINST THE PAGANS AND NOw HE HAS SUPPORT FROM AN ALMIGHTY BEING!"

Well, why not?

I haven't got the time to read all this so:

"Without sorrow we don't know joy"

Que? That doesn't make any sense at all since joy is a chemical process, and I think that we can recognise endorfines pretty good, we havehad like one billion years (or maybe we were created perfect for this purpose around 7000 years ago) for training and evolution...

"This is the punishment for the thai-govenment for not telling the people of the geological findings."

And where does Banda Aceh fit in to this?

"God works in mysterious ways for the sake of our good"

But if he is ALMIGHTY, PEACEFUL and CARING this problem should have been fixed in some other way. You have to acept that you can't have the almighty and caring God in one, otherwise this wouldn't have happened.

"God doesn't want to fix everything for us, in that way he is caring."

No because almighty mean ALmighty, God would have been able to give us the experience without the tsunami if he was almighty (and loving the human race of course).

"BEND DOWN! PRES. BUSH IS COMING AGAINST THE PAGANS AND NOw HE HAS SUPPORT FROM AN ALMIGHTY BEING!"

Well, why not?

See here

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gr5part1.html

God works in the hearts of people that belive in him and want to help humanity if God stopped all suffering then that would make free will impossible

God works in the hearts of people is a weak excuse, I could say that I work in the hearts of people that believe in me and anything good they do was actually me...prove me wrong.

Stopping suffering wouldn't change free will, that doesn't make sense. You could argue that getting hit by a tsunami would eradicate free will.

Originally Posted by Canaus
God works in the hearts of people that belive in him and want to help humanity if God stopped all suffering then that would make free will impossible God works in the hearts of people is a weak excuse, I could say that I work in the hearts of people that believe in me and anything good they do was actually me...prove me wrong.
That's correct. If people love you and you ask things of them, then you work in their hearts. The evidence of it is measurable actions and effects.

Stopping suffering wouldn't change free will, that doesn't make sense. You could argue that getting hit by a tsunami would eradicate free will.
Any action by God to change what is would affect free will. Free will is the ability to choose; at the moment, in the world we live in, we can choose from all possible options, which lead to any possible consequences and effects. If you remove or limit a consequence, for instance if you remove suffering from your people so that any choices they make will only lead to good things, you have also limited the choices they can make.

I think you're missing his point, consider instead if I proposed that their is a species of Giraffe that is completely invisible, has no smell or sound, and you can walk through it without touching it...how could you prove that I'm lying and how would I prove that I'm not?

Now consider the same scenario but read Giraffe as God
What's the difference between your special giraffe and no giraffe at all?

There does seem to be some confusion, i completely agree that the leaves disappearing indicates that something is happening, but it cannot prove that it is the giraffe that is responsible. Similarly, the occurence of a natural disaster indicates something, but not necessarily that God did it.
It's not the giraffe, it's flying invisible bunny rabbits.

In case you didn't notice, the Bible is classified non-fiction by the library of conggress. It was time to go for those people... It's sad, but true... This world is a sinful place.
Books about chanelling, UFO kidnappings, Uri Geller's spoon bending powers, the bagavad ghita, and many other crazy topics are also filed under nonfiction. The bible is in good company.

2 nhilistic beginners: i care as much about those ppl dying as u do but if u r an atheist then u have a bigger problem. First off if we all just evolved from sum ape or eventually out of a pure accident involving chemicals and so we're all just advanced organisms that evolved purely by chance then how do u see the fact that they died as a loss. then isnt it jus like stepping on a bunch of ants?
The surviving ants may have a problem with it.

As to the original post, no, it's not proof of nonexistence of God.

As to the other posts about God, just shut up already. The pro-Goddies pushing their guilt- and fear-trips, the anti-Goddies trying to apply logic to faith, back and forth forever. YOU'LL NEVER FINISH THE ARGUMENT.

How? All that does is simply make people think you have a horrible view of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. But yet what do you think atheism is? That website I think describes atheism pretty well. All me, nothing for you. That is what atheism suggests anyways. That the I is more importent then the WE.
Atheists don't all share one world view. The only thing they have in common is they don't beleive in gods.

Actually, it may be proof that God does exist. This could be the beginning of Armageddon as discussed in Revelations. One of the things that God says will happen is there will be great earthquakes. This definitely qualifies as a great earthquake, my friend.
In that case armageddon has been going on for a very long time. Earthquakes are a fact of life on this planet.

Firstly, athiesm is the belief that there is no God. It's a belief which can also be called a religion. Secondly, I hate how the world tends to define things because sometimes it isn't even the right definition, such as Christianity. The "worlds" definition is anyone that beliefs in Jesus Christ essentially.
Sorry, atheism is no more a religion than not beleiving in Santal Claus.

Actually God intervenes everyday, all day. The problem is that most people, even most Christians are under the false assumption that God only intervenes when something goes "wrong". Nothing ever goes "wrong" -- everything goes precisely and exactly as it was ordained before the foundation of the world. Where was God when the thousands (and more to come from the repurcussions) of people died? He was right there killing them with the Tsunami. It is His right to kill sinners. We are all sinners, justly deserving his displeasure and wrath. The wages of sin is death and he justly rewards us with what we have earned by our actions and inactions. Oh but what about the "innocent" babies and the embiciles? They are sinners just as much as you and all and ALL babies will ALWAYS grow up to be at emnity with God until and unless He intervenes and changes their hearts, in the same manner as He changed the heart of the wandering idolotor Abraham about four-odd thousand years ago. God has compassion on whom He wills to have compassion and He hardens whom He wills to harden. The hardening is not something that those who are hardened do not want anyway. We all would be in that condition if God did not intervene. Daily God brings in yet another number of his people into fellowship with Christ -- everyone whose names ar written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. None less and no more.

God does not merely look down the corridor of time and "know" what things men will do. Only that which is foreordained can truly be foreknown. This is the Biblical principle and as God would have it, it answers exactly what we need to know about God and man, sin, salvation and damnation.

God owes nothing to anyone. We owe God everything. So, when God kills a bunch of sinners this is what is happening. He is shown as being just in bringing perfect justice to guilty people. He is shown as merciful by saving some of those people to himself. He is shown as righteous by sending the rest to their just deserts in everlasting torment. And all of this to the praise of His glory. All things, whether good or evil, work together for the glory of God and for the salvation of His elect. the true Israel from every tribe, tongue and nation.

King Jesus the Lord rules today. Repent and kiss the Son, lest He be angered and destroy you in His wrath. But He is patient and kind to everyone for whom He died. He is also patient with those and good to those who are destined for wrath.

Choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.
so much preaching, so little proof.

Everyone sins. That's what they did.

If God wasn't benevolent he could have let everyone die when Noah was around.

God has a plan. Everything happens for a reason.

How do you know that some of those people weren't murderers? Theives? Rapists?
Statistics show that the vast majority of those people were good, decent folks.

Agreed.

Look kid, a couple of years ago I was 12 years old. I seriously considered converting to Islam because I was trying to find myself. I found a website telling about Islam and how to convert to it, and it was so convincing and I so convincable that I seriously considered it.

Then, I realized the mistake I was making, and became a better Christian. Today, I go to church every oppurtunity I get and pray to God every night and thank Him for the blessings He has given to me, even though I turned my back on Him when I was 12.

You will learn.
Some of us did learn. That's why we are atheists.

If god stoped all suffering and all problems in the world, would we credit it to god or to ourselfs, god works in the hearts of people that belive in him and want to help humanity if god stoped all suffering then that would make free will impossible
That simply doesn't follow logically. No suffering doesn't preclude free will. In a world with no suffering a person could still oh, let's say steal something, it's just that the shopkeeper wouldn't miss it.

Proof that God doesn't exist? It is quite obvious you have yet to read the Bible. God made everything perfect. We humans spoiled that state of perfection, and evil entered the world. Mass death, though saddening, is not proof of the absence of God. We live in a broken world. Bad things happen to good people. We suffer this, because sin entered the world. Why did sin enter the world? Because we screwed up.

God's perfect world--> :D :gundge: <--Us.
All empty speculation without evidence to support any of it.

You are insane.
Well thank you for noticing.

As to the original post, no, it's not proof of nonexistence of God.

As to the other posts about God, just shut up already. The pro-Goddies pushing their guilt- and fear-trips, the anti-Goddies trying to apply logic to faith, back and forth forever. YOU'LL NEVER FINISH THE ARGUMENT.
The point of the argument is not to win. It's just to argue. Some of us find it enjoyable, and stimulating. It gets people to view their beleifs and those of others in a new way. So, kindly get the fuck out of the thread if you don't like it.

If these sort of natural disasters are percieved through causality, then perhaps it can be explained. As this tidal wave could have been caused through mans abuse of the ecosystem; through pollution and other means man has caused this natural disaster to take place (Global Warming - melting Ice caps - increasing sea volume - tidal wave). This Disaster may depict a message that we should take more care of our ecosystem. Which may also explain why God didnt help the many millions who died; because peraps they are an example of what happens when humans mistreat the world around them.

That is a bunch of bull if i ever heard it!!! God doesn't make bad things happen to people. It's the Devil that makes all that stuff happen! God cares about everyone in the world, but if they don't hsve faith in him then nothing can happen. And you'd think that people would think that God's all-powerfull if he can flood the world and drown everything except the fishies and Noah and his family and everythign on the boat in fourty days tops!!
There must be a ton of evil fish in the world. And swans, geese, and ducks...
/Eddie Izzard quote

That simply doesn't follow logically. No suffering doesn't preclude free will. In a world with no suffering a person could still oh, let's say steal something, it's just that the shopkeeper wouldn't miss it.
You are not talking about "no suffering", then; you are talking about altering the perception of it.

All empty speculation without evidence to support any of it.

so much preaching, so little proof.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gr5part1.html (See here)

You have no evidence to support your claims either. You have yet to provide anything from the Bible or any other Christian source that describes the Charachter of God as someone whose job it is to keep the world a good, nice, place all the time. Tell me, where exactly do you get the idea that it is God's job to protect humanity from this kind of stuff. It certianly isnt the Bible.

When mankind misuses his intelligence and resources, the only way GOD can act is by showing man his place.

With all the technology and science, mankind could not protect the people who died in the Tsunami wave in ASIA.

Though some people claim this region did not have the same network as the one installed in the pacific, the fact is mankind could do nothing.

It is a pointer that in future too mankind will not be able to do much against natural disasters or even unnatural ones (challenger, concorde, etc, 911).

The only way mankind can protect itself is by realizing their SELF and connecting to GOD.

Guru

well, the idiot that started this board didn't realize that "GOD" doesn't like to save people he doesn't want too(if you didn't know, all those countries that got hit by the tsunami weren't Christian). That's his problem, cause "God" is man-made, along with the Bible, and i feel deep sorrow for anyone who believes that God is real, or he has a plan. Maybe fundamentalist Christians need to go kill themselves and go to heaven faster, cause i sure as heck don't really care for insane bible preaching we're all gonna go to hell people as neighbors. end of story, God is not real...stop living in an illusion and wake up

Asia Toll Nears 77,000 As Aid Arrives (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20041229/ap_on_re_as/quake_tsunami) (AP) - Cargo planes touched down with aid Wednesday, bearing everything from lentils to water purifiers to help survivors facing the threat of epidemic after this week's quake-tsunami catastrophe. The first Indonesian military teams reached the devastated west coast of Sumatra island, finding thousands of bodies and increasing the death toll across 12 nations to nearly 77,000. The international Red Cross warned that the toll could eventually surpass 100,000.

A natural disaster has happened in Asia and we are all struggling to make some sense out what seems senseless. It is clear the world of nature follows certain laws. If humankind attempts to ignore these laws there are natural consequences. This can’t be avoided; it is another natural law. Now humanity can use other natural laws to circumvent some of these laws. For instance we can fly by overcoming the laws of gravity. These laws exist whether we believe in God or not, any reasonable person would agree with this.

So when a natural disaster happens is it fair to blame the natural law for the destruction of some part of the material world? I think it is only fair to say, no it is not fair. Now if that is true, then it also seems unfair to blame God and call Him uncaring when the natural laws that God created (if you believe in God) are merely following their normal path and process.

The earth shifted. This has happened countless time through out the history of the earth. It is a natural process that has shaped the world as we know it today. The planet that we find so beautiful and awe inspiring when it is seemly at rest is terrifying when it is more visibly active. These process happen whether there is a God or not.

What many posters seem to be saying is that if God loved his creation or even existed He would suddenly step-in during natural disasters and save people from suffering. The unbelievers could then say, “Oh yes, I see God at work. Therefore I believe.” Those who were not there to witness the event with their own eyes would not believe. This form of reasoning it seems to me is similar to many religious believers who base their faith on miracles and say my Prophet (ie: God) is stronger, bigger, more powerful than yours because He did this or that thing and yours did not.

This was a natural disaster. These kind of things have happened in the past and will happen in the future. I think some good will come out of this natural disaster. Hopefully we will spend more money on science and develop better techniques for predicting earthquakes.

During the time of the Roman Empire Christians were rounded up and executed by crucifiction and immolation by Emeror Nero. Even with the threat of execution for even uttering the name of Christ, the books of the Bible and the belief of God survived. How, without some divine aid, did these texts and beliefs stay alive? Near the end of WWII, American troops found the concentration camps. When they arrived the captives came forth and through their tears thanked God for they had been saved. They did not condemn him, but glorified him. How could these events have come to pass without God? A scientist will tell you that nothing happens by chance, there are no coincidences. By chance alone, those texts would not have endured the milleniums. By chance, Hitler messed up enough that the Allied Forces penetrated Germany. Yeah, by chance...I'm so sure.