NationStates Jolt Archive

Apparently there's some confusion over our policy on acceptable images for flags (the kind you upload yourself). In particular, there's a mistaken belief that any image is fine so long as it doesn't include a swastika or nudity.

Nope! As per the FAQ, flags are subject to the same minimum standard as any other content: they can't be obscene, illegal, threatening, malicious, defamatory, spam, or have the primary aim of offending or upsetting people. And:
Does that apply to my nation's flag?
You betcha. In fact, we're much stricter on nation flags than we are on forum posts, because they're not open for challenge and debate. If you want to make a political point, don't use your flag -- use the forum, where other people have a right of reply.
This has been the case from the beginning. However, I once answered a question about a three-pronged red and black flag by saying something like, "Only swastikas and swastika-like images are banned, not anything else," and the "anything else" was taken more literally than I intended. I apologize, particularly to the mods, for this confusion, and I'm sorry if it's lead to some inconsistent moderation.

To make life easier, here are some examples of what is and isn't acceptable. I expect there will be many borderline cases (there always are), but it's a simple principle. If a flag celebrates death, slavery, violence, or other not-nice things against real people, that's malicious, and will have the primary effect of offending.

Acceptable or Not? Some Examples
A swastika: not acceptable (Yes, it was used by Buddhists in the third Century, etc, etc, but that's not what it represents now. To the vast majority of people, the swastika represents the Holocaust. A nation with a swastika appears to be endorsing that event; that's malicious and has the primary effect of offending.)
A swastika with little flowers and happy faces, on a nation called "The Friendly Nazis": fine
A swastika with little flowers and happy faces, on a nation called "The Friendly Nazis" that has the slogan: "We kill Jews with kindness": not fine
A flag of Hitler looking all stern: no (Only one interpretation available there.)
A flag of Hitler wearing an apron with fake boobs that says "Kiss the Cook": fine
Actual boobs: no (I know, I know, who gets offended by breasts? But it's only fun to post them because it's naughty, and that's why it's banned)
The iron cross: my feeling is it's usually okay, because I don't think most people even recognize it. But if the nation also had a name, slogan, etc, that seemed to be glorifying Bad Things, then no
That SS lightning slash thing: no
Something that looks a lot like a swastika if you squint just right: mods would need to judge the intent. If it's just a blatant attempt to get around the swastika ban, then no. If it seems coincidental -- e.g. nothing else about the nation seems to endorse violence against real people -- then it's fine.
A swastika and it's on a clearly pro-Nazi nation but honest it's just roleplaying: no. Sorry, you might be RPing but if that's not obvious to other people, then the primary effect of your flag will be to offend and upset, even though you don't intend it.
The hammer and sickle: fine (Yes, I'm aware of the hundreds of millions of deaths. But when people look at the hammer and sickle, they think communism, not mass graves. If you can point me at a survey that shows otherwise, then we'll deem this one malicious, too. But until then, it's just a Soviet flag.)
The Japanese flag, or the American one, or the British one, or... : fine (Most people don't primarily associate any of these with death or violence.)
The Japanese flag on a nation with the slogan, "We bombed your grandparents": no
To make that point again: we don't ban particular patterns of colored pixels, we ban any content that is malicious in nature. The mods' job is to judge which is which, according to guidelines like this.

And because I know this is going to come up again: I realize that you can point out a bunch of different groups that committed terrible acts, and yet we're not banning their flags. That's because we're not banning the symbols of every group that scored a particular body count; we're prohibiting content that is malicious in nature and to most people will have the primary effect of offending. Not a few people, not just you, but most people. That's the criteria.

The forums permit relatively free speech on a range of issues, so, as the FAQ says, if you've got a political ax to grind, do it here, where people can argue back. Please don't put it in your flag when you know it will piss people off.

Edit: changed "A Rough Guide" to "Some Examples".

Tag with special code words like 2600 and Age of Empires that I don't say too often so I can find this in case it's not a sticky.

Tag with special code words like 2600 and Age of Empires that I don't say too often so I can find this in case it's not a sticky.

You can just subscribe to it. No need to tag.

[violet], it looks like it's common sense, however, would I be correct to assume that all Nazi symbols are banned, unless made in a humorous fashion (per your flowers and smiles example)? I just thought you might want to clarify that, since not all Nazi symbols happen to be well known.

Oh, and the SS symbol is called the Sig Rune.

You can just subscribe to it. No need to tag.

Good point. I think this is the only forum I go to that does have the "subscribe to thread" deal so that might be a part of it.

I've seen questions about the triskelion (three-pronged swastika-type thing that neo-Nazis sometimes use as seen here (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Three_sevens.PNG))

The ruling I saw was that the triskelion is allowed on flags, but I just wanted to put that out there for anyone that had questions regarding it.

I've added a copy of the first post to the closed Rules sticky (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023), so no need to worry about losing it. This thread will remain open for questions and discussions.

The triskelion is still used on the flag of the Isle of Man (which is one of the flags in the basic list). While it is similar to the swastika in appearance, I don't see it as justifiable to ban it on that basis. When people see the triskelion, they aren't likely to think 'nazi'.

The triskelion is still used on the flag of the Isle of Man (which is one of the flags in the basic list). While it is similar to the swastika in appearance, I don't see it as justifiable to ban it on that basis. When people see the triskelion, they aren't likely to think 'nazi'.

The only basis I would see justifiable to ban the triskelion would be its use by Neonazis, but even that is reaching pretty far.

I, for one, will always push for the removal of all Communist symbols, regardless of the status of Nazi symbols, or indeed, anything else. For one, I think Gulag, Siberia, and Death Camps. [On the flip side I haven't seen any survey that asked people "What do you think when you see the hammer and sickle?"]

Ok, for one, if you guys start with the ban of all "nazi" like flags, you would have to ban pretty much every other major flag.

You may ask why, well as LB has stated with Communism, every major flag has belong to a nation that has executed some form of Genocide one way or another. Heres a few examples.

American flag: Overthrown several legit governments, and was responsable for the deaths of countless Hawian, African American, and Native American people's.

Soviet Union flag: Gee, you all hate Nazism so much, its so small in comparison to Communism. Hitler barely managed to kill what? 6 Million in the halocaust, and 20 million Russians at the hands of the SS? Ok, yet Lenin and Stalin managed to off an excess of 40 million, who's bodies are still being found today.

All Flags Related to Communism(East Bloc countries), see Soviet Union flag.

British Empire: Gee, these guys have managed to kill off countless African's and Indian's in their suppression of peaceful movements against their rule. You don't rule most of the world whilst being a nice guy?

North Korea: This is pretty self-explanatory, and if you don't know why, you shouldn't be here in the first place.

China: Gee, Mau or however you spell his name, has killed thousands maybe millions off with his secret police raids.

Italy: Il Duce helped out Hitler in his ploys to off the Jews, and was very willing to do whatever.

Japan: Pearl Harbor....Batan Death March...just a few examples.

Ok, my point is clear. If Nationstates is supposed to allow people to run their nation how-ever they wish, then their flag should be whatever they want it to be. Hell, everyone runs into something offensive, everything sees offensive things in their own different way. What may seem cool looking to you, might make my terribly offended, you don't know what will offend someone.

You ban any form of Nazi flag, you have to ban all others stated above, the main reason Nazi flags are banned, is due to the Halocaust, gee, not to sound sadistic here, but in numbers, Stalin offed alot more than ole' Toothbush could dream of.

American flag: Overthrown several legit governments, and was responsable for the deaths of countless Hawian, African American, and Native American people's.

The Japanese flag, or the American one, or the British one, or... : fine (Most people don't primarily associate any of these with death or violence.)

The first thing you think of when you see an American flag mostly likely won't be of murder and genocide.

Soviet Union flag: Gee, you all hate Nazism so much, its so small in comparison to Communism. Hitler barely managed to kill what? 6 Million in the halocaust, and 20 million Russians at the hands of the SS? Ok, yet Lenin and Stalin managed to off an excess of 40 million, who's bodies are still being found today.

and again, read the first post:
The hammer and sickle: fine (Yes, I'm aware of the hundreds of millions of deaths. But when people look at the hammer and sickle, they think communism, not mass graves. If you can point me at a survey that shows otherwise, then we'll deem this one malicious, too. But until then, it's just a Soviet flag.)

As for the rest of the examples you've given, they all show the same thing as the Soviet Union flag. If you want to get into detail, you could find specific things about every nation in existance. The most important thing, however, is the fact that the Nazi symbol was primarily used to represent the Holocaust, and not Germany as a whole. Numbers of deaths aren't what we're looking at, we're looking at what each symbol represents.

Whereas, every flag/symbol that Verst just mentioned also connects with death, destruction, and "un-nice-ness." Ergo, there is frankly no point in targetting Nazism to be banned, as opposed to well, almost every other symbol of a nation.

Frankly, people will get offended, no matter how hard others try to avoid it. Eventually someone'll get offended for using Old Glory as their flag. A free-form role play would allow Nazi's, including Nazi symbols.

Meh, people dislike the Nazi flag because the Halocaust is the most well-known event in human history, run a few dozen specials, and make some movies about Stalins perges, and you'll all get the same effect when it comes to the Soviet flag.

I for one agree, if we are to ban any, and every nazi, and neo-nazi symbol, to be fair we should ban Communist symbols. Now, correct me if i'm wrong, I won't mind :p, but if I recall dosen't the rules page "Your flag cannot state a strong political standpoint." When you see the hammer and sickle, you see Communisim, which is a strong political standpoint.

Once again, correct me if i'm wrong.

You're not, because most Americans when they see the Hammel and Sickle, they remember Stalin/Cold War.

Meh, people dislike the Nazi flag because the Halocaust is the most well-known event in human history, run a few dozen specials, and make some movies about Stalins perges, and you'll all get the same effect when it comes to the Soviet flag.I don't think the intent of this thread was to have it kept open to have the rules questioned. I think it was kept open for questions. Besides, if you'd like to debate the issue, please do it in the general forum. I'd be more than willing to discuss it there.

Frankly, people will get offended, no matter how hard others try to avoid it. Eventually someone'll get offended for using Old Glory as their flag. A free-form role play would allow Nazi's, including Nazi symbols.
I, for one -- okay, I just wanted to say that too.

You're right, of course: there's always someone who can find anything offensive. That's why we don't ban things that only offend some people. It's a "reasonable person" test: we ban things that are offensive or malicious to most people.

NationStates isn't a complete free-speech zone, and never has been, although I think it's more free than most. You're welcome to discuss all kinds of political things on the forums, including whether National Socialism is a good idea or a really bad one. But you're not free to celebrate or advocate violence against real people.

First off, thank you Max for this game. I know it has gotten much bigger than anyone anticipated, but it truly rocks :)

Secondly, thank you for your clarifications. I do have some specific questions regarding them though:

'] A flag of Hitler looking all stern: no (Only one interpretation available there.)

I would gather that the picture of Hitler has him looking mean, ranting, etc; versus a solemn photo several nations use. Please clarify. Also, his trademark mostash on images (including cartoon ones) looking stern (versus an actual picture of him).

'] The iron cross: my feeling is it's usually okay, because I don't think most people even recognize it. But if the nation also had a name, slogan, etc, that seemed to be glorifying Bad Things, then no

I believe this is self-explainatory (and certainly clearer :) ); but FYI, I have had problems previously reporting the positioning of swastikas within them. This is just something to watch -- especially since the SS thunderbolt (Sig Rune) is also prohibited under this clarification as I read it.

'] Something that looks a lot like a swastika if you squint just right: mods would need to judge the intent. If it's just a blatant attempt to get around the swastika ban, then no. If it seems coincidental -- e.g. nothing else about the nation seems to endorse violence against real people -- then it's fine.

I think you will find that there are several nations that had been previously been warned about swastikas on flags and in response they have a symbol hinting at such. While I wholeheartedly agree with this clarification, I think that the Moderators will find several nations with such symbols AND having been warned previously for sporting real swastikas.


'](I)t's a simple principle. If a flag celebrates death, slavery, violence, or other not-nice things against real people, that's malicious, and will have the primary effect of offending ... To make that point again: we don't ban particular patterns of colored pixels, we ban any content that is malicious in nature. The mods' job is to judge which is which, according to guidelines like this.

And because I know this is going to come up again: I realize that you can point out a bunch of different groups that committed terrible acts, and yet we're not banning their flags. That's because we're not banning the symbols of every group that scored a particular body count; we're prohibiting content that is malicious in nature and to most people will have the primary effect of offending. Not a few people, not just you, but most people. That's the criteria.

In as much as I agree fully with these terms, there inevitibly will be nations/players who have had such nations for quite a length of time (like ones with names the glorify bad things but otherwise has abided by NS rules). I am wondering if such nations, if deleted, would result in an additional collected violation against an individual player that has otherwise abided by NS rules.

Thank you in advance for considering these queries.

-- The Preparation and Delivery of The Last Supper

I thought only nudity and swastika's were banned, but now it seems the SS symbol is banned as well.

Yay for political correctness.

For the interested, a poll of what NSers think of the hammer and sickle.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=438096

Feel free to voice your opinion.

If you had a nice curvy swastika flag and the name of your nation was "the Happy Tree Hugging Peoples of Buddhist Peace" would you be allowed it?

From what I can see, yes, CC.

Now, when looking at allowing H+S and not the Swastika, think of it like this:
Communists and Socialists don't actively seek out jews (or slavs, whatever) to beat them up etc. Nearly all cases from that would be isolated ones (just like a Hitlerite-Nazi being friendly with jews)
So it's more of what the thing stands for, not what it stood for.

'] A swastika with little flowers and happy faces, on a nation called "The Friendly Nazis": fine


If I'm reading this correctly then in certain circumstances swastikas are acceptable, yes?

If this is the case then someone might want to edit the message displayed on the 'Create Your National Flag' page, which still reads as if all swastikas are prohibited - "Images likely to cause widespread offense (e.g. nudity, swastikas) are prohibited, and your nation may be deleted if you post them."

'] A flag of Hitler looking all stern: no (Only one interpretation available there.)
A flag of Hitler wearing an apron with fake boobs that says "Kiss the Cook": fine


Forgive me if I seem to be asking some really stupid questions here, but is it now the case that the first image would be acceptable here, while the second wouldn't?

'Good' Hitler?
http://news.msn.co.il/NR/rdonlyres/FD7A492F-681D-45B2-8EC6-EC12A808BB28/43732/HitlerAdolfSmile041220ApZItem.jpg


'Bad' Hitler?
http://www.holocaust-history.org/short-essays/hitler-200.jpg

The reason I'm asking is because this seems like such a departure from previously applied policy, and is going to require a slew of nations changing their flags.

For the interested, a poll of what NSers think of the hammer and sickle.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=438096

Feel free to voice your opinion.

Because it would be impossible to rig a poll?

It's going to be a judgment call, folks, on a case by case basis. You've got the guidelines.

What about pictures of a swastika being smashed? Is that acceptable?

If I may address the difference between the Swastica and the Hammer and Sicle. The former actually stands for every negative image it conjurs up. It stands for the Aryan bullshit the Nazi types like to spout, it stands for the conquest and tyrannical rule of the Nazi party. The Hammer and Sicle stand for workers rights and equality and freedom among all men from the ideological stand point. Communists at the very least mean well, Nazis are just hateful ideology. That is why the former should be acceptable and the latter shouldn't.

A poll coming from a forum wherein a solid 75% of it's members claim to be Communist. No surprise the results came in the way they were.

No one in the US is really much of a communist. They'll buy a Che shirt and post online about the poor working class while they sit in an air conditioned office and ignore the homeless on the way to work. They'll buy the latest CDs, the latest fashions, see the latest movies, all the while decrying the capitalist system of 'exploitation' that they, themselves, participate in willingly and knowingly.

And you'll see the no-true-scotsman fallacy in NS a lot. You know, the one where they go "Aha! But no *true* Communist state has ever existed, therefore Communism has never existed, therefore Communism is guiltless of anything ever done in the name of Communism by Communists!"

It's a fallacy because what it is is one 'communist' telling me, a non-communist, that THEY know what a "real" communist is, but other communists - like EVERYONE IN THE USSR AND THE PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF CHINA AND NORTH KOREA - are somehow not 'real' and are just posers. Well how am I to decide who is the 'true' communist?

To make things easier, I decide that anyone enlisted in the Communist Party, who claims to be working for Communism, in an avowed Communist nation, IS A COMMUNIST. Why? Because I can't go online every time I have to decide whether someone or somewhere is communistic, and ask the "real" communists (the ones who are consumers in a capitalist society BTW) whats what.

So in my book, communism has killed 40+ million people in the 20th century alone. I don't care how "true" to Marx or whatever the communist regimes were. They were more communist than some fool American who's read a little Marxist theory in between McDonald's cheeseburgers.

A poll coming from a forum wherein a solid 75% of it's members claim to be Communist. No surprise the results came in the way they were.Could you link that? I'd like to see whether 75% really claim to be communist.

Just think about it--how many Communist/socialist nations do we have on here?

Just think about it--how many Communist/socialist nations do we have on here?Does that mean no poll? (and btw, socialist != communist)

Does that mean no poll? (and btw, socialist != communist)

Socialism and Communism fall under Marxism. Even through both are similar but not quite the same, the do fall under a greater parent catagory.

Socialism and Communism fall under Marxism. Even through both are similar but not quite the same, the do fall under a greater parent catagory.I don't see what this has to do with Swastikas.

Edit: And if you argue it that way, National Socialism falls under Marxism too...
But if you really have any arguements against it, start a thread. The mods don't like it when threads the post for questions being answered turn into political debates. That's what the General Forum is for.

I don't see what this has to do with Swastikas.

Edit: And if you argue it that way, National Socialism falls under Marxism too...
But if you really have any arguements against it, start a thread. The mods don't like it when threads the post for questions being answered turn into political debates. That's what the General Forum is for.
No, it doesn't. Marx specifically fought against national socialism stating numerous times it cannot exist within national boundaries.

No, it doesn't. Marx specifically fought against national socialism stating numerous times it cannot exist within national boundaries.Marx also would have been appalled by the idea of making athiesim the new opiate of the masses. And this still has nothing to do with Swastikas.

Marx also would have been appalled by the idea of making athiesim the new opiate of the masses. And this still has nothing to do with Swastikas.
I have no idea what you are talking about. In any case, this is indeed off topic.

Run a few dozen specials on Stalin's purges, write a few books, have some eyewitness accounts of the Gulag. You'd have the same effect as we do everyday with the Holocaust.

Run a few dozen specials on Stalin's purges, write a few books, have some eyewitness accounts of the Gulag. You'd have the same effect as we do everyday with the Holocaust.
And I'm sure you could do the same thing with the American flag. The fact one can whip up propaganda to make people hate something is hardly the criteria here.

Run a few dozen specials on Stalin's purges, write a few books, have some eyewitness accounts of the Gulag. You'd have the same effect as we do everyday with the Holocaust.That's cute. Stalin didn't hand pick the hammer and sickle. Stalin didn't rule the Nation under that banner for its entire history. Therefore, one could associate Krushchev's feeble attempts to get West Berlin. Or Gorbachew's perestroika or glasnost. And the soviet union wasn't based on the same human-hating ideology that the 3rd Reich was. That's the difference.

The swastika as most people see it is associated with the Nazi regime and represents a system of governance that any reasonable person would find abhorrent. I was exposed to the swastika as a child, playing with model tanks/aeroplanes etc and it's frequently to be seen on the many history TV channels available. I don't feel as if my exposure to the swastika in that context has made me pro-Nazi. Far from it.

I personally don't feel offended to see a swastika flag flying on a pro-Nazi nation. But my family is not Jewish. Flying a swastika tells me something about the character of the person behind the nation and invariably leads me to conclude that he or she is someone I would not wish to know in real life.

The site belongs to Max, so it's his decision. But I think that [violets] recents thoughts could lead to difficulty for the Moderators.

Up until now it's been clear , swastikas banned. Now it seems to be that the swastika may be allowed under certain circumstances. It may lead to a disproportionate amount of moderator time being used to interpret individual flags and the motives of the player who is flying the flag. And you could end up with two nations flying identical flags but with differing mottos, one of which gets deated and the other does not.

Similarly with the good Hitler/bad Hitler thing. It's a question of interpretation and a judgement call by the Mod. I personally feel that an image of Hitler as a flag is as bad as the swastika itself.

I guess what I'm saying is that [violets] thoughts are muddying the water and could cause the Mods problems.

I dont really know enough about the history of the Nazi period or of the history of the Soviet Union. Both systems were responsible for the deaths of millions of people. And the British flag and those of the commonwealth countries which still sport the union flag in part on their own flags (eg Australia, New Zealand), they still have a tinge of the colonial/imperial system which had its own faults and under which many people died.

And it's fair to say that in some parts of the world you wouldnt dare fly Old Glory.

It's a difficult one. I can only think about what would happen in real life if a nation chose to adopt the swastika as its national flag and Nazism as its system of government. That nation would be ostracised and thrown out of international institutions.

Perhaps the swastika should be allowed but nations flying it should be banned from joining the UN ? And those nations "caught" with swastikas and UN membership be deleted ? Just a suggestion.

A poll coming from a forum wherein a solid 75% of it's members claim to be Communist. No surprise the results came in the way they were.
And which board is this?

No one in the US is really much of a communist. Hasty generalization right off the bat. This doesn't look good. They'll buy a Che shirt and post online about the poor working class while they sit in an air conditioned office and ignore the homeless on the way to work. They'll buy the latest CDs, the latest fashions, see the latest movies, More of the above... all the while decrying the capitalist system of 'exploitation' that they, themselves, participate in willingly and knowingly. As if they have a choice. Are they just supposed to move outside the US? Are they supposed to not buy capitalist food, capitalist power, capitalist water, capitalist clothing? They supposed to squat in a shack up in the mountains living of squirrels? Capitalism as it is is unavoidable for any human interested in staying alive. That is like saying the African Americans who used segregated schools were somehow not really interested in civil rights. In a word, this is crap.

And you'll see the no-true-scotsman fallacy in NS a lot. You know, the one where they go "Aha! But no *true* Communist state has ever existed, therefore Communism has never existed, therefore Communism is guiltless of anything ever done in the name of Communism by Communists!" No true scotsman is not a fallacy as often as you would like to think. If someone is insisting between bites of Big Mac that they are really a vegan, do you believe them? Or if they are claiming to be Christian while praying Great Allah? Or if they claim to be a cancer survivor but never had cancer?" I suppose one could say the same thing you are.

"No true cancer survivor didn't survive cancer." "What about those cancer survivors who never had cancer?" "Well they aren't true cancer surivors, are they? You going to label that a no-true-scotsman too?

Communism is no different. One has a set of beliefs and principles if they are a communist. If they do not have those beliefs and actions to go with their self proclaimed name, they are not communists. The difference between this and the scotsman fallacy is simple. Communist beliefs and actions are the defining attribute of communism. Sugar is utterly irrelevant to whether or not one is a scotsman because in that case the defining attribute is geological. No fallacy is being committed, you just don't understand logic nor communism.


It's a fallacy because what it is is one 'communist' telling me, a non-communist, that THEY know what a "real" communist is, but other communists - like EVERYONE IN THE USSR AND THE PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF CHINA AND NORTH KOREA - are somehow not 'real' and are just posers. And they are right, what's your point? Those aren't communists, they are hijackers. Well how am I to decide who is the 'true' communist? Read marx and see who matches his words with their actions?

To make things easier, I decide that anyone enlisted in the Communist Party, who claims to be working for Communism, in an avowed Communist nation, IS A COMMUNIST. Why? Because I can't go online every time I have to decide whether someone or somewhere is communistic, and ask the "real" communists (the ones who are consumers in a capitalist society BTW) whats what. You could do research to figure it out for yourself. Your laziness does not mean your beliefs are true.

So in my book, communism has killed 40+ million people in the 20th century alone. Well, that is because you are totally clueless about communism. I don't care how "true" to Marx or whatever the communist regimes were. I'm sure you don't, it would sink your argument. They were more communist than some fool American who's read a little Marxist theory in between McDonald's cheeseburgers. And you say this because you are too lazy to take the time to understand communism for yourself. What a solid base you have to work off of.

Perhaps instead of crusading against communist symbols you should take the time to understand them. This is nothing more on your part than blind hatred. The above here is why communist symbols should not be banned because what you aledge is communism isn't and what communism is is a ideology of unity, equality, and freedom. The Nazi party stood for none of these things.

I have an actual related question:

does the flag of imperial Japan, the one they used in WW2, fall under the prohibited category, for it's association with the barbaric regime?

I have an actual related question:

does the flag of imperial Japan, the one they used in WW2, fall under the prohibited category, for it's association with the barbaric regime?
I should doubt it, since the Japanese still use it today, red circle on a white field. They also use the Navy Jack on their ships, which is the one with the rays coming from the red sun. Here's my source (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/jp_fact.html)

'] The iron cross: my feeling is it's usually okay, because I don't think most people even recognize it. But if the nation also had a name, slogan, etc, that seemed to be glorifying Bad Things, then no.I would just like to say that I hope that this ruling remains as such. The Iron Cross is a piece from German history running all the way back Early Prussian times. Granted, the Swastika was around longer before it was 'borrowed' by the Nazis than the Iron Cross was, but many more people see the Iron Cross as a German metal, not a Nazi one.

I for one, a member of an Imperial German region, have a slightly modernized Iron Cross on my flag, and many people in my region with me have the Iron Cross proper... if this changes, entire regions would need to be wiped out.

So, uhm... what was I saying? Lets all just pretend that I had something good to say, and that I am happy that [violet] and Max see Nazi's as Nazi's, and not Germans.

The Iron Cross is still used to mark the German military vehicles. It's also still a medal. It's still used and the German government made the offer to swop any Iron Crosses awarded by the NS regime with ones that didn't have a swastika on it.

In response to a few specific questions about acceptability: please don't take the examples as definitions. The fact that a flag of "Hitler looking stern" is unacceptable does not mean that flags of Hitler looking happy, sad, excited, like he just sat on the thumbtack, etc, are all okay. This is the interpretation problem we ran into last time. The examples are just that, nothing more.

If you're wondering whether your image is malicious or likely to cause widespread offense, ask yourself: "Would most people, looking at this flag on my nation, think that I'm celebrating violence against real people?"

If yes, it's no good here.

The Iron Cross is still used to mark the German military vehicles. It's also still a medal. It's still used and the German government made the offer to swop any Iron Crosses awarded by the NS regime with ones that didn't have a swastika on it.

That took a moment for me to understand as I interpreted NS to mean 'NationStates'...

That took a moment for me to understand as I interpreted NS to mean 'NationStates'...Oh, yeah, that's a problem I've had. "NS" means "National Socialist" to me, so I avoid using it in other contexts. I've used "NSers", but I always spell out NationStates. Took me a while to get used to other people using NS to mean NationStates...

Lamebums -- " So in my book, communism has killed 40+ million people in the 20th century alone...."

if communism (an 'ism,' an idealogy, really just an idea) somehow killed 40 million people, than would you like to try to estimate how many people 'nationalism' (another ism, idea, idealogy) has killed? or say, capitalism? as previously cited, most western countries could qualify as the perpetrators of mass murder. so that could qualify as a 'western-centric bias' or 'westernism' or something. hmm, was else? oh, well since al queda claimed to be following islamic law, islam is obviously at fault for 9/11.

people - not ideas or concepts - kill other people.

as an american jew, its a struggle for me to say that anyone should be allowed to use swastikas on this site. but i think that the reason a 'reasonable person' would be offended by a swastika, and not say, the rwandan flag or the british flag or the american flag is simply because we're well versed in western history and still have a rather racist and western-centric view of history. so murder 'over in that other part of the world' doesn't offend us as much.

but that doesn't make a reasonable person any less offended by the swastika, so i completely agree with the rules.

That seems fair.

I have a suggestion ... the German Constitution actually bans the use of a number of symbols except for under a few "educational" situtations. This ban includes Swastikas and just about anything related to the SS.

http://www.polizei.hessen.de/internetzentral/broker.jsp?uMen=d2570ee1-825a-f6f8-6373-a91bbcb63046


[edit: FYI the part of the Constitution where this is said to be illegal I believe is Article 9, paragraph 2:

(2) Associations whose aims or activities contravene the criminal laws, or that are directed against the constitutional order or the concept of international understanding, shall be prohibited.]

From there criminal law was written to restrict the use of certain symbols, though looking at the list from the link I provided, I think players can find something else if they really want to.

I have a suggestion ... the German Constitution actually bans the use of a number of symbols except for under a few "educational" situtations. This ban includes Swastikas and just about anything related to the SS.<LINK>As useful as that may be to some people, what Max says goes... so we just have to see if anything is added to the list at another date.

I don't give a rat's ass what the German constitution says, frankly. I'm not in Germany and probably won't be for a while. Just ban every flag while you're at it. Now it's just Nazis. Then it'll be all Germans. Then it'll be anything except maybe a pure white flag. [then perhaps, removed, for being white?]

I don't give a rat's ass what the German constitution says, frankly. I'm not in Germany and probably won't be for a while. Just ban every flag while you're at it. Now it's just Nazis. Then it'll be all Germans. Then it'll be anything except maybe a pure white flag. [then perhaps, removed, for being white?]If you'd bother looking at it, you'd see that an Imperial War Flag of the 2nd Empire can be legally displayed out of a National Socialist context. At least according to the German constitution. It really sounds like it's more important to you to have such symbols allowed than to ban other possibly offensive symbols like the hammer and sickle, which you incidentally have on your flag...

I don't give a rat's ass what the German constitution says, frankly. I'm not in Germany and probably won't be for a while. Just ban every flag while you're at it. Now it's just Nazis. Then it'll be all Germans. Then it'll be anything except maybe a pure white flag. [then perhaps, removed, for being white?]

That is a knee-jerk reaction on your part ...

I'm not suggesting we adopt German law, but I did post the link with images to provide the moderators a set of images of symbols that *represent* hate to many NationStates players. In fact, some human rights groups are constantly saying they've gone over-the-top with their Nazi-hunts (though having traveled in Germany many times, it is hard for me to tell if they are overreacting or underreacting ... to be on the safe side, I've always adviced my Jewish friends to consider not displaying their Stars of David in the open when *alone* in some cities in the old GDR.)

I'm all for free speech, so long as it isn't too hurtful. Keyword: TOO. But my own "spider sense" rings a bit when I see people displaying those symbols. In NationStates, when I'm telegramming nations or *receiving* telegrams, I like to look at the flag, motto, animal, and currency.

I think [violet] knows exactly what he / she is doing when saying a Swastika with happy faces and flowers with a non-offensive logo is fine. But if I saw somebody with one of the more obscure runes used by the SS and a motto like, "Domination Through Strength" or something like that, I'd be a bit worried. While players could easily just be "playing" the part of a fascist, there have to be plenty of other ways to get the image of "I'm gonna destroy your country" across in a way that meets those that were impacted by the Second World War in a less direct manner. For example, what about doing a variation on Pink Floyd's "The Wall" symbolism? Or "The Empire" from Star Wars?

That link has a list of signs that *Germans* and many other continental Europeans are more likely to associate with the SS, and I think the *American*, *English*, *Canadian*, etc. game moderators should have access to a site where they can make *informed* decisions.



As an aside, last year I went to a concert in Leipzig Germany from a band named Feindflug. The show was riding on the edge of acceptability, in that there was footage of Coventry in ashes, footage of Rotterdam in ashes, footage of gas chambers ... the body count was high. Lacking from the photos were shots of any German causalities, and I noticed many of the English, Dutch, and French in the room were as uneasy by the incredibly positive reaction from the majority of concert goers (the vast majority of whom were German). To an American this might "read" like a simple issue of "freedom of expression". As an American, I thought so too, until I started spending more time in Europe. Now I can see why this entire issue brings up bitterness. I think the best course of action will be to allow the moderators to rule on this and not come up with a hard "rule". But at the same time, they should be made aware of RL debates, including seeing some national regulations on this very topic.

I don't give a rat's ass what the German constitution says, frankly. I'm not in Germany and probably won't be for a while. Just ban every flag while you're at it. Now it's just Nazis. Then it'll be all Germans. Then it'll be anything except maybe a pure white flag. [then perhaps, removed, for being white?]

Knock it off Lame Bums. This contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Would the mods consider the rebel "stars and bars" flag offensive in and of itself as apparantly the swastika is considered offensive, regardless of associated content?

Personally when i think of the hammer and sickle it does offend me i'm always reminded of the purges

Personally, I find a picture of Stalin equally offensive, probably more because of my political stance, than a picture of Hitler. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to start recruiting for a National Socialist orginization, I just don't see why one mass murderer is better than another. Ditto the hammer and sickle. While Hitler had a sizeable impact on my family history (go figure) I wouldn't be offended if someone had a "bad Hitler" picture. I might be offended if they had a pic of Blair, because I believe him to be a stupid b@stard, and I believe Hitler did at least have a few redeeming points which Blair doesn't.
What we should understand is that offense is a personal issue, while some people will be offended by a swastika, many more will not. That goes for most symbols really.

I would question why swastikas and pictures of Hitler and banned but regions and countries with names which appear to endorse National Socialism are allowed. Either Nazis are bad, or good. That's one thing which should not depend on the situation (Nazis are ok as a country name, but bad in a flag...).
Are there any guidelines for country names/mottos? For example, would a motto of "Heil Hitler" be acceptable?

Many, many, many very specific questions......

to which the answer is STILL....

If a flag celebrates death, slavery, violence, or other not-nice things against real people, that's malicious, and will have the primary effect of offending....

...we're not banning the symbols of every group that scored a particular body count; we're prohibiting content that is malicious in nature and to most people will have the primary effect of offending. Not a few people, not just you, but most people. That's the criteria.

I might be offended if they had a pic of Blair, because I believe him to be a stupid b@stard, and I believe Hitler did at least have a few redeeming points which Blair doesn't.I find that hard to believe. There's nothing I can think of that could redeem Hitler.

What we should understand is that offense is a personal issue, while some people will be offended by a swastika, many more will not. I doubt that. I'm pretty sure if we started a poll, there'd be a majority offended.

For example, would a motto of "Heil Hitler" be acceptable?I believe it is, if it isn't, they would have warned my one RP nation when they told me to change the animal.

Thought folks might like to see the following thread, related to this one, in the General Forum:

Fascism vs. NationStates
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=438311

You ask me, this is just another type of fascism, censorship and downright bullying by the mods. How naive are you if you honestly believe the nazis were the first group of people on earth who did the genocide thing. We've been killing each other for centuries under various flags, heralds, and mottos and you single out the National Socialists (communism is fine is it, then allow the swastika, as socialism is a stop on the road to communism!)

You say that no-one immediately thinks of death and genocide when they see the stars-and-stripes. Are you really this stupid; ask anyone in the middle east, vietnam, afghanistan, iraq et al. How about the Star of David? Ask anyone in Palestine. I could go on but hopefully you'll see my point. There are schools of thought that have the jewish agenda running everything and there are schools of thought that have the anti-jewish agenda running everything. One things for damned certain; if you ban the swastika from NS you are nothing more than brainwashed intellectual midgets who shouldnt be running something which so lovingly touts the notion of free speech.

Good day.

Blackpudding']One things for damned certain; if you ban the swastika from NS you are nothing more than brainwashed intellectual midgets who shouldnt be running something which so lovingly touts the notion of free speech.

little bit of friendly advice, debate is fine but insulting the mods just because you dont agree with them (especially in mod forum) is normally a bad idea.

little bit of friendly advice, debate is fine but insulting the mods just because you dont agree with them (especially in mod forum) is normally a bad idea.

Little bit of friendly retort; thats the beauty of free speech!

Apart from that, great post.

Blackpudding']One things for damned certain; if you ban the swastika from NS you are nothing more than brainwashed intellectual midgets who shouldnt be running something which so lovingly touts the notion of free speech.

Good day.
Five pages, eh? Forgive me for not reading through all of it, I've only ever just stopped by to sneak peeks. That said, I think the longevity of this thread speaks volumes for the mods innate tolerance in allowing such a lengthy discussion on what is, a moot point. That moot point being this idea of 'freedom of speech'.

This isn't some branch of government, this is Max Barry's website. So while it might appear to be some hallowed ground for some (and yet another place to be carved up and turned out as a patchwork of hateful camps forever slogging each other), it's not. Max doesn't want swastikas, we don't have swastikas. There's a few other things I'd wish he wouldn't want, but that's me. And he's Max. And this is his property. And you, and me, and everybody else who is busily tapping away at our keyboards, are here as his guests, though more often than not, we're here at his sufferance.

The mods are just the ones unlucky enough to have to administer the rules and regs. No point lashing out at anyone there. I'll leave before getting knee-deep in the blah-blah.

Take care, all.

Dobbs,

I take your point but whose to say what offends who and what shoul be banned? The mods? My guess is if they are mostly American then they'll know that Israel are the good guys, the holocaust was bad (because only jews perished in it) and that their own flag stands for everything that is good and right in the world. Thats what happens when you are raised in a country and I'm not necessarily bemoaning them but to outright ban something because you consider it offensive is coming awfully close to outright killing someone because you find them offensive or repugnant.

To those of you who see that last point as a bit childish, thats exactly the point I was trying to make.

Blackpudding']Dobbs,

I take your point but whose to say what offends who and what shoul be banned? The mods? My guess is if they are mostly American then they'll know that Israel are the good guys, the holocaust was bad (because only jews perished in it) and that their own flag stands for everything that is good and right in the world. Thats what happens when you are raised in a country and I'm not necessarily bemoaning them but to outright ban something because you consider it offensive is coming awfully close to outright killing someone because you find them offensive or repugnant.

To those of you who see that last point as a bit childish, thats exactly the point I was trying to make.Hm... you seemed to miss the point that was made. The certain nazi symbols are banned because most people are going to be offended by them, and others, like the Star of David or Old Glory, will only offend few people.

The reason nazis are "singled out" for committing genocide that "everyone committed" is because they did it as soon as they came to power, as long as they were in power, and in such a manner that had never and has never been duplicated. Not only that, racial superiority and the eradication of "sub-humans" was the basis of their policy even before they came to power.

There has yet to be similar crimes committed for a similar amount of time with a similar hatred for humanity that even comes close to how the Nazis did it.

Blackpudding']Dobbs,

I take your point but whose to say what offends who and what shoul be banned? The mods? My guess is if they are mostly American then they'll know that Israel are the good guys, the holocaust was bad (because only jews perished in it) and that their own flag stands for everything that is good and right in the world. Thats what happens when you are raised in a country and I'm not necessarily bemoaning them but to outright ban something because you consider it offensive is coming awfully close to outright killing someone because you find them offensive or repugnant.

To those of you who see that last point as a bit childish, thats exactly the point I was trying to make.

Please, everyone, step back for a moment and re-read what has been said just in this page of the thread:

This isn't some branch of government, this is Max Barry's website. So while it might appear to be some hallowed ground for some (and yet another place to be carved up and turned out as a patchwork of hateful camps forever slogging each other), it's not. Max doesn't want swastikas, we don't have swastikas. There's a few other things I'd wish he wouldn't want, but that's me. And he's Max. And this is his property. And you, and me, and everybody else who is busily tapping away at our keyboards, are here as his guests, though more often than not, we're here at his sufferance.

Many, many, many very specific questions......

to which the answer is STILL....


[QUOTE=Originally Posted by violet]
If a flag celebrates death, slavery, violence, or other not-nice things against real people, that's malicious, and will have the primary effect of offending....

...we're not banning the symbols of every group that scored a particular body count; we're prohibiting content that is malicious in nature and to most people will have the primary effect of offending. Not a few people, not just you, but most people. That's the criteria.

This previous point has been underscored for me in the last posts I just saw in the known Nazi regions The NSIA and The URAP. I understand that the Iron Cross flags have been deleted if they also incorporate known nazi symbols, like the SS thunderbolt insignia. In their upset of having their flags deleted, the following posts in their regional messageboards are instructive as to how much such nazi adherents and/or roleplayers know which symbols "that (are) malicious in nature and to most people will have the primary effect of offending" --

QUOTE from The NSIA RMB:

The Iron Cross... Wow, just where do I begin? One Reich is tottally right, it has nothing to do with National Socalisim reguardless if Hitler used it. Because it was used in WWI, and even before then, in other words, when the Kaisers ran the fatherland.

To ban that, is just riddiculouse, now, if i'm mistaken, it wasn't, but i'm just saying, if the iron cross is banned, you must ban the hammer and sickle, because when people see the iron cross, most people don't think "Nazi.".

QUOTE from The URAP RMB:

Since when has the Iron Cross became known as a racist Nazi symbol? These Mods need to look in the History of the Iron Cross!

These last two quotes are interesting, because by omission these posters acknowledge that other symbols used by the Nazis, the swastika, the SS sige rune, portraits of Hitler, etc., are clearly recognized to be Nazi.

Appreciate the re-clarification, Katganistan. Thanks to everyone for their posts. Glad to be able to step back and re-read everything.

The Preparation and Delivery of The Last Supper

I take it the reason the two nations you quoted aren't allowed to have Iron Crosses is because of their names, and not because the Iron Cross itself is banned. I think E-Xtremia pointed out a quote from the rulings that it was context that made the Iron Cross illegal.

Blackpudding']Little bit of friendly retort; thats the beauty of free speech!

Apart from that, great post.

You dont have free speech on these forums, you are limited to what max and the mods will allow said on the forums. It's max site so he decides what can and cant be said.

Hm... you seemed to miss the point that was made. The certain nazi symbols are banned because most people are going to be offended by them, and others, like the Star of David or Old Glory, will only offend few people.

The reason nazis are "singled out" for committing genocide that "everyone committed" is because they did it as soon as they came to power, as long as they were in power, and in such a manner that had never and has never been duplicated. Not only that, racial superiority and the eradication of "sub-humans" was the basis of their policy even before they came to power.

There has yet to be similar crimes committed for a similar amount of time with a similar hatred for humanity that even comes close to how the Nazis did it.

No, you missed my point. What I was saying is that anyone who believes the Nazis were the only mob who did the genocide thing are stupid and brainwashed. This applies to banning only the swastika. To use your own logic, then the jews are the only ones who should really be offended because they were really the only ones targeted for extinction.

Again, using your own weak as piss argument, I'm sure the native americans were relieved as they were slaughtered in their thousands and rounded up into ever smaller reservations that the english and dutch waited for a few years before doing so. Same with the tribes in africa as the brits stomped in.

How about the Russians? You ever read about the gulags, or Berievs brutal NKVD?

As for your comments about racial superiority being on the agenda before they came to power, I'm calling bullshit. That was Hitlers agenda, not the Nazis. Hitler came to power by scapegoating jews for the state germany was in after WW1. The germans needed someone to blame and hitler delivered the poor jews up on a plate. Revisionists should also note that the jews who bemoan the holocaust now were probably the same ones loading their kin folk aboard trains.

Your argument is so full of holes you could use it to catch fish.

:headbang:

You dont have free speech on these forums, you are limited to what max and the mods will allow said on the forums. It's max site so he decides what can and cant be said.

They have my e-mail addy, and can feel free to ban me or ask me to cease and desist at any time. Ever thought of changing your name to toenails?

(I really shouldnt listen to AC/DC when I'm posting.)

You dont have free speech on these forums, you are limited to what max and the mods will allow said on the forums. It's max site so he decides what can and cant be said.
Quite. At least, that's how I understand it.

Quite. At least, that's how I understand it.

Then any opinion you have is OK as long as it sits alright with the mods?

:rolleyes:

Just an observation. While I agree with the decision to ban symbols that directly links to the advocation of hate (for instance, Nazism and fascism), one must remember that while admittingly there are certain communist states that did commit atrocious crimes, the hammer-and-sickle itself is not linked to these atrocities (since the atrocities are rather the exploitation of the ideology that the symbol represents in only certain nations, and the abuse of power gained from advocating communism - unlike Nazism, in which symbols like the double sig runes are clearly linked directly to the Nazi ideology and war criminal organizations such as the SS) and is instead an universal (i.e. not nation-wise) symbol that directly links to the ideology of communism itself - even it was abused by certain communist states that did kill many. Second, it is also important to actually examine the composition of the symbol. The communist symbol directly represents the individual and general ideas of communism and thus not the atrocities committed by certain communist states, while Nazi symbols instead, directly promotes the ideas of Nazism - racial superiority, for example. Communism itself doesn't advocate mass murder and hate; Nazism does, and by the way, directly.

Using the same logic to ban communism, American, and British symbols, we may as well ban a) paper, b) internet, and c) all writing instruments, since there are people who uses the three things mentioned to spread their hateful thoughts - but are paper, the internet, and writing instruments directly linked to hate and death? No, even though some will use it to advocate such things. Is the communist symbol promoting mass murder? No, even though certain states that uses the symbol will do such things as part of their consolidation of power.

Just an observation. While I agree with the decision to ban symbols that directly links to the advocation of hate (for instance, Nazism and fascism), one must remember that while admittingly there are certain communist states that did commit atrocious crimes, the hammer-and-sickle itself is not linked to these atrocities (since the atrocities are rather the exploitation of the ideology that the symbol represents in only certain nations, and the abuse of power gained from advocating communism - unlike Nazism, in which symbols like the double sig runes are clearly linked directly to the Nazi ideology and war criminal organizations such as the SS) and is instead an universal (i.e. not nation-wise) symbol that directly links to the ideology of communism itself - even it was abused by certain communist states that did kill many. Second, it is also important to actually examine the composition of the symbol. The communist symbol directly represents the individual and general ideas of communism and thus not the atrocities committed by certain communist states, while Nazi symbols instead, directly promotes the ideas of Nazism - racial superiority, for example. Communism itself doesn't advocate mass murder and hate; Nazism does, and by the way, directly.

Using the same logic to ban communism, American, and British symbols, we may as well ban a) paper, b) internet, and c) all writing instruments, since there are people who uses the three things mentioned to spread their hateful thoughts - but are paper, the internet, and writing instruments directly linked to hate and death? No, even though some will use it to advocate such things. Is the communist symbol promoting mass murder? No, even though certain states that uses the symbol will do such things as part of their consolidation of power.

Flawed, given that the national socialist party didnt form with the idea of killing jews or committing genocide. That was hitlers bag and , like i said before, he scapegoated the jews as being responsible for post-WW1 germany and the terrible state it was in. The german people signed up to this ideaology just as readily as commies signed up to theirs.

Blackpudding']SNIP
This applies to banning only the swastika. To use your own logic, then the jews are the only ones who should really be offended because they were really the only ones targeted for extinction.
/SNIPMore than just jews dont like Hitler. I can think of a religous group on this site (Budists was it?) who cant use a religious symbol because the Nazis desicrated it... though with the whole 'happy flower thing' that [violet] added, maybe they shall no longer have that problem.

Many Germans dont like Nazis at all. When I went to school, the second someone found out I am to the right, and of German decent, I am called a Nazi. Very hurtful, as hurtful as calling a Green or a Liberaltarian a Commie.

Like [violet] said, we are going on what most people find offensive. While there are many who say the holocost never happend (my great uncle George knows otherwise, he liberated Birkenwald) many more acknowledge and dislike it. As has been said many times in the last few posts, this is Max's site. What he wants goes. If for some reason Max desides he is now offended by Stalinism, I am sure the 'Sickle and Hammer' would be outlawed. If he is offended by 'Stars and Stripes' or 'Stars and Bars,' he'd ban them. That is just the way to look at it.

EDIT: For the poster above, some historians will claim he didn't know the holocost existed, just thought they were in concentration camps. He wanted to ship his 'undesireables' (I am not raceist, just using his word) to Madagascar. Hate Himler.

Blackpudding']Flawed, given that the national socialist party didnt form with the idea of killing jews or committing genocide.
It is the direct advocation of hate, prejudice, and discrimination and the consequent mass murder as to why there's a clear backing as to why the symbols should be banned. As much as it is irrelevant as to whether the Nazis wanted mass murder from the outset (and I have absolutely no interest to argue about that), the symbol itself, undeniably, does link directly to these hateful ideas that is inherent in Nazism.

More than just jews dont like Hitler. I can think of a religous group on this site (Budists was it?) who cant use a religious symbol because the Nazis desicrated it... though with the whole 'happy flower thing' that [violet] added, maybe they shall no longer have that problem.

Many Germans dont like Nazis at all. When I went to school, the second someone found out I am to the right, and of German decent, I am called a Nazi. Very hurtful, as hurtful as calling a Green or a Liberaltarian a Commie.

Like [violet] said, we are going on what most people find offensive. While there are many who say the holocost never happend (my great uncle George knows otherwise, he liberated Birkenwald) many more acknowledge and dislike it. As has been said many times in the last few posts, this is Max's site. What he wants goes. If for some reason Max desides he is now offended by Stalinism, I am sure the 'Sickle and Hammer' would be outlawed. If he is offended by 'Stars and Stripes' or 'Stars and Bars,' he'd ban them. That is just the way to look at it.

EDIT: For the poster above, some historians will claim he didn't know the holocost existed, just thought they were in concentration camps. He wanted to ship his 'undesireables' (I am not raceist, just using his word) to Madagascar. Hate Himler.

I'm neither a holocaust denier nor believer. I tend to let the facts dictate my opinions. I'm not praising the nazis in any way for what they did. I just think its rather unfair that the stars and stripes (currently bombing the shit out of anything brown in the middle east so halliburton can make a buck) is such a symbol of peace and freedom.

Neither am I suggesting that the germans, current or otherwise, support what the nazis did. I'm saying its unfair to single out one event in history as the pariah of all time. Does anyone remember what happened to palestine at the end of WWII when israel suddenly became a reality because the allies deigned it so?

More than just jews dont like Hitler. I can think of a religous group on this site (Budists was it?) who cant use a religious symbol because the Nazis desicrated it... though with the whole 'happy flower thing' that [violet] added, maybe they shall no longer have that problem.

Many Germans dont like Nazis at all. When I went to school, the second someone found out I am to the right, and of German decent, I am called a Nazi. Very hurtful, as hurtful as calling a Green or a Liberaltarian a Commie.

Like [violet] said, we are going on what most people find offensive. While there are many who say the holocost never happend (my great uncle George knows otherwise, he liberated Birkenwald) many more acknowledge and dislike it. As has been said many times in the last few posts, this is Max's site. What he wants goes. If for some reason Max desides he is now offended by Stalinism, I am sure the 'Sickle and Hammer' would be outlawed. If he is offended by 'Stars and Stripes' or 'Stars and Bars,' he'd ban them. That is just the way to look at it.

EDIT: For the poster above, some historians will claim he didn't know the holocost existed, just thought they were in concentration camps. He wanted to ship his 'undesireables' (I am not raceist, just using his word) to Madagascar. Hate Himler.

I'm neither a holocaust denier nor believer. I tend to let the facts dictate my opinions. I'm not praising the nazis in any way for what they did. I just think its rather unfair that the stars and stripes (currently bombing the shit out of anything brown in the middle east so halliburton can make a buck) is such a symbol of peace and freedom.

Neither am I suggesting that the germans, current or otherwise, support what the nazis did. I'm saying its unfair to single out one event in history as the pariah of all time. Does anyone remember what happened to palestine at the end of WWII when israel suddenly became a reality because the allies deigned it so?

Blackpudding']Then any opinion you have is OK as long as it sits alright with the mods?

:rolleyes:
What's with the eye rolling and all, 'pudding? I thought I was abundantly clear in my intial post to you. The mods are here to enforce the rules. They don't make them.

And before we go any further, they can't be absolutely everywhere, at all times, and try as they might, they can't be 100% even across the board with their rulings, as each situation has its' peculiarities, history, and personalities involved.

I should know, 'pudding. I've not only been warned and forumbanned - my original nation, Dobbstown, got DEATed. After that, I took a bit of a break - but I came back. I decided I enjoyed the forums enough that when I did come back, I came back as a kinder, gentler semi-hemi-demi trolling poster. Since coming back, I've played a little less fast-and-loose than I used to, without giving the mods nearly anywhere near as much lip, while still managing to have a good time. It's not that hard to do.

Don't put yourself through the grief I put myself through, 'pudding. It's just not worth it. It's just a forum.

More than just jews dont like Hitler. I can think of a religous group on this site (Budists was it?) who cant use a religious symbol because the Nazis desicrated it...

The Indians have it on the back of almost every goods truck I saw there - it's very jarring. I believe it's an old Sanskrit symbol now used by the Hindus.

The Sydney Customs House also has it plastered all over the entrance, and they have felt the need to post a long explanation of the symbol's history, why it was used there in the first place, and why they keep it there.

Blackpudding']No, you missed my point. What I was saying is that anyone who believes the Nazis were the only mob who did the genocide thing are stupid and brainwashed. This applies to banning only the swastika. To use your own logic, then the jews are the only ones who should really be offended because they were really the only ones targeted for extinction.Please point out where I said that the Nazis were the only ones to commit genocide and I will show you that I said the Nazis were the only ones to do it in such a fashion that has never been seen before and hasn't been duplicated.
As for missing points, you miss mine. The Nazis were around much shorter than a lot of other things, and therefore their symbols are directly associated with their crimes.
All other symbols that have been criticised (US flag, Union Jack, Hammer and Sickle) were around for much longer and were used by people that opposed such genocide just as much as by people that propagated it. (Yes, Stalin was denounced by the Central Committee after he was dead and so were his purges). The difference to Nazi concentration camps, how do I best explain, was the utter contempt for human life that they were based on. In Russian gulags they made you work and didn't care whether you died or not. In concentration camps, they made you work with the sole purpose of killing you in mind. "Tod durch Arbeit" (death by work) was the idea behind them and the cynical "Arbeit macht frei" (work makes free) on the gates of almost every camp I've seen drives home how sadistic these people really were.
As for your silly belief that jews were the only ones to be marked for extinction: The first people to go to concentration camps were German political dissidents. The first people to be industrially murdered and experimented on were the disabled. Among others, the Nazis hunted gypsies too. Jews were the most prominent, but by no means the only group to be targeted for extinction.
And those are just the concentration camps. Please do not forget that almost every European nation suffered at the hands of the Nazis and many more were devastated by the war they caused.
The examples you gave are by no means better, but they differ in so far they are not the only things committed by the countries or governments or even ideologies that their symbols represent. Old Glory also stands for the protection of Western Europe against communism. The Reich's flag has no such good quality. The hammer and sickle stand for communism as a whole, and not just the Russian gulags. In fact, they also stand for glasnost and perestroika. Again, I can find nothing good that the symbols used by the Nazis in their 12 year reign.
Blackpudding']
As for your comments about racial superiority being on the agenda before they came to power, I'm calling bullshit. In that case I'll have to call bananafish.
Blackpudding']
That was Hitlers agenda, not the Nazis. Hitler came to power by scapegoating jews for the state germany was in after WW1. The germans needed someone to blame and hitler delivered the poor jews up on a plate. Revisionists should also note that the jews who bemoan the holocaust now were probably the same ones loading their kin folk aboard trains.You seem a bit deluded about German history. Let me explain:
You cannot separate Hitler from the Nazis. Before Hitler took over the reigns, the DAP (German Workers Party) was a small far-rightwing group with little power. After Hitler took power, he renamed it the NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party). Nazi comes from the German pronounciation of National Sozialist (Nah-tsyo-naal Zoh-tsya-list). So, one could say that there were no Nazis before Hitler took dictatorial control of the party. Stating that Hitler's agenda was not the Nazi agenda is very misguided.
This isn't the place to discuss how Hitler came to power though. Leave it at that that blaming the Jews was something that got a lot of support from the desperate, and was tolerated by too many others. This is not an attempt to defend anyone, but saying what you did is rather superficial and takes very little into account.
As for your last statement. I will keep my cool. The statement is wrong, and that's all I really feel I need to tell you.
Blackpudding']
Your argument is so full of holes you could use it to catch fish.
I don't need some catchy metaphor to end my post. I'd like you to know that none of us decide on the matter anyway. I'm just trying to help you understand why the ruling is as it is.

Blackpudding']Flawed, given that the national socialist party didnt form with the idea of killing jews or committing genocide.Flawed, given that there was no national socialist party until it was formed by Hitler.

The Indians have it on the back of almost every goods truck I saw there - it's very jarring. I believe it's an old Sanskrit symbol now used by the Hindus.

The Sydney Customs House also has it plastered all over the entrance, and they have felt the need to post a long explanation of the symbol's history, why it was used there in the first place, and why they keep it there.We had an incident at our course's Christmas party last year. Our idea was to have different Christmas traditions each present themselves with a stand. For those countries that aren't Christian, we tried to find a similarly important holiday. The guy that did the Indian stand started drawing swastikas on his stand. After a civil discussion, we managed to convince him that it wouldn't be prudent to display that particular symbol at a German university. He complied and wrote "Good Luck + Happiness" instead.

Blackpudding']You ask me, this is just another type of fascism, censorship and downright bullying by the mods.[violet] is not a Mod. [violet] is the chief Admin for NationStates, and has been in that position since NationStates first went live.

Perhaps you should learn what you're talking about before popping off again.

Blackpudding']I tend to let the facts dictate my opinions. I have a question. Have you ever been to a concentration camp historical site? What kind of "facts" have you been reading, seeing, been exposed to to consider the holocaust a matter of "faith"?
Blackpudding']I just think its rather unfair that the stars and stripes (currently bombing the shit out of anything brown in the middle east so halliburton can make a buck) is such a symbol of peace and freedom.No one here (well, I'm not) is saying that. A lot of people would agree with you. However, what you said is in no way comparable to the holocaust and the US flag has not represented the bombing of middle eastern countries in the name of Haliburton for its entire history.
Blackpudding']Neither am I suggesting that the germans, current or otherwise, support what the nazis did. I'm saying its unfair to single out one event in history as the pariah of all time. Does anyone remember what happened to palestine at the end of WWII when israel suddenly became a reality because the allies deigned it so?I didn't get the impression that you were either defending or attacking the Germans. What I feel you are doing is relativating the most inhumane actions in the history of the world by comparing them to things that were almost, but not quite, as deplorable and making that the basis of the arguement that the symbols that solely represented the people that committed these atrocities are in no way worse than symbols that have a far broader meaning.

I find that hard to believe. There's nothing I can think of that could redeem Hitler.
He managed to get Germany out of an economic slump, and produced levels of unemployment Bush and Blair can only dream of. And you may find it hard to believe, but it's true...

I doubt that. I'm pretty sure if we started a poll, there'd be a majority offended.
Porbably a majority, I agree. But then, if a majority are against seeing a swastika, a majority would probably not take favourably to a country with a motto of Heil Hitler. If not, I would question whether this majority have really considered the issue properly.

He managed to get Germany out of an economic slump, and produced levels of unemployment Bush and Blair can only dream of. And you may find it hard to believe, but it's true...Muahahaha! That's so wrong I can only laugh. Hitler came to power shortly before historians reckoned the economic situation would have gotten a bit better on its own. His improvements of the unemployment rate were managed by vacating jobs formerly owned by memebers of society of Jewish descent and by spending money he didn't have on arms and highway systems.
Besides, Blair hasn't committed any atrocities in any way comparable to what Hitler has done, so even if he's better than Blair in economics, that in no way balances out what else he's done. I'd prefer someone without redeemable points than someone with redeemable points that is beyond redemption.

Porbably a majority, I agree. But then, if a majority are against seeing a swastika, a majority would probably not take favourably to a country with a motto of Heil Hitler. If not, I would question whether this majority have really considered the issue properly.If you would look at a country favorably that does use a motto such as He*l H*tler, I would question whether you have really considered the issue properly. Besides, a majority being offended is a majority being offended, whether they considered the issue properly or not, so that doesn't really mean anything...

I've read so many posts here since the thread was started, many of them very thoughtful and well considered. I've reflected on them and changed position.

I now think the swastika should be banned because it's the principal symbol of a uniquely cruel movement.

As soon as he was elected - elected - to power, Hitler and his cohorts roused old hatreds and ancient prejudices. Hitler used every part of the German economic and social system to systematically persecute the Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, dissidents, Jehovahs Witnesses, Quakers and basically anyone whose face didn't fit. He relied on the open cooperation or acquiesance of a frighteningly large number of people to enable this persecution to succeed. Every branch of the state was involved, scientists, doctors, industrialists, the civil service, the railways, broadcasters .... the extermination of the Jews was planned and documented in the finest minute detail. And all the while, most Germans were indifferent to this horror.

It is the sheer scale of this mass extermination that makes the Holocaust unique in the annals of human cruelty. And it is for that reason that the swastika should remain banned from Nationstates.

I've read so many posts here since the thread was started, many of them very thoughtful and well considered. I've reflected on them and changed position.

I now think the swastika should be banned because it's the principal symbol of a uniquely cruel movement.

As soon as he was elected - elected - to power, Hitler and his cohorts roused old hatreds and ancient prejudices. Hitler used every part of the German economic and social system to systematically persecute the Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, dissidents, Jehovahs Witnesses, Quakers and basically anyone whose face didn't fit. He relied on the open cooperation or acquiesance of a frighteningly large number of people to enable this persecution to succeed. Every branch of the state was involved, scientists, doctors, industrialists, the civil service, the railways, broadcasters .... the extermination of the Jews was planned and documented in the finest minute detail. And all the while, most Germans were indifferent to this horror.

It is the sheer scale of this mass extermination that makes the Holocaust unique in the annals of human cruelty. And it is for that reason that the swastika should remain banned from Nationstates.

Well said. I 100 % agree.

As facanating as the discussion has become, I feel that we've left [violet]'s orrigional intention for this thread...

maybe a mod would like to split and move to general? Just my 2¢

Please point out where I said that the Nazis were the only ones to commit suicide ..................

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

Where did you copy and paste that crap from?

My history teacher was jewish and used to hate that I would go and deliberately find reports and testimonies that directly contradicted what he was teaching us. Why did I do this? Because I wont have one agenda / people / group tellig me what happened. Theres a quote somewhere about history being written by the victors and I think its extremely apt in this case.

America is bombing Iraq in the name of Halliburton and if you believe anything else you have the reasoning of a toaster.

I've read so many posts here since the thread was started, many of them very thoughtful and well considered. I've reflected on them and changed position.

I now think the swastika should be banned because it's the principal symbol of a uniquely cruel movement.

As soon as he was elected - elected - to power, Hitler and his cohorts roused old hatreds and ancient prejudices. Hitler used every part of the German economic and social system to systematically persecute the Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, dissidents, Jehovahs Witnesses, Quakers and basically anyone whose face didn't fit. He relied on the open cooperation or acquiesance of a frighteningly large number of people to enable this persecution to succeed. Every branch of the state was involved, scientists, doctors, industrialists, the civil service, the railways, broadcasters .... the extermination of the Jews was planned and documented in the finest minute detail. And all the while, most Germans were indifferent to this horror.

It is the sheer scale of this mass extermination that makes the Holocaust unique in the annals of human cruelty. And it is for that reason that the swastika should remain banned from Nationstates.

We know, we dont need you grandstanding to tell us what happened.

Pssssst - Wanna take a look inside GITMO or attend a wedding due to be bombed in Afghanistan?

Blackpudding']America is bombing Iraq in the name of Halliburton and if you believe anything else you have the reasoning of a toaster.I corrected the mistake you found. There are nicer ways of pointing that out.

So, how did the US bomb Iraq in the name of Haliburton before flight was discovered?

I suggest you start using better arguements than "My history teacher was wrong because I found sources so you are too". And maybe you should read my posts too, as to prevent the impression that you're only trying to flamebait me into saying something I'll regret later.

Blackpudding']Pssssst - Wanna take a look inside GITMO or attend a wedding due to be bombed in Afghanistan?I'll ask you again: Been to a concentration camp historical site yet?

Blackpudding]Pssssst - Wanna take a look inside GITMO or attend a wedding due to be bombed in Afghanistan?

Eh, I think you might need to calm down a bit. That might be considered trolling/flamebait...

'] The iron cross: my feeling is it's usually okay, because I don't think most people even recognize it

I get so ticked off when I see an iron cross. Why are swastikas considered evil but iron crosses are okay. They are both symbols of nazis.

If any of you don't know what an iron cross looks like:

http://www.nationalist.org/images/artwork/logos/iron.jpeg

I get so ticked off when I see an iron cross. Why are swastikas considered evil but iron crosses are okay. They are both symbols of nazisNot both were used exclusively by the Nazis. That's the difference.
Here's another picture of one, from 1914 (http://204.83.160.230/archive/b/images3/EisernesKreuz1914.jpg)
And this is how it's changed throughout German history (http://www.bmvg.de/C1256EF40036B05B/CurrentBaseLink/W2652H57341INFODE)
It's the marking of the German Bundeswehr since 1956

Blackpudding, you're off topic.

The Hammer and Sickle repressents the workers struggle against explotation and class society. Not Stalins purges and gulags. I mean when people look at the american flag they don't think Genocide, Slavery and racial segregation even though those crimes were committed under that flag. The Soviet flag was made before the horrible atrocities of stalin's regime and therefore represent the Soviet nation.

I corrected the mistake you found. There are nicer ways of pointing that out.

So, how did the US bomb Iraq in the name of Haliburton before flight was discovered?

I suggest you start using better arguements than "My history teacher was wrong because I found sources so you are too". And maybe you should read my posts too, as to prevent the impression that you're only trying to flamebait me into saying something I'll regret later.

What are you talking about? You're seriously saying that it happened so long ago that no-one cares so the flags are OK?

I never said my history teacher was wrong. I said he hated me for arguing with him all the time. This was to qualify the implication that I'm no anti-semitic, merely anti-one-side-telling-the-whole-story.

The GITMO and Afghanistan comments were about current times, torture and murder in the name of tracking down an enemy who is still at large, and mostly, non-existant. Those are currently happening so, on the basis of establishing a link between one country's actions vs. another country's, they are on topic.

I mean when people look at the american flag they don't think Genocide, Slavery and racial segregation

Really? Ask anyone in the ME.

Just a brief comment here, the ancient bhudist symbol that looks like a swastica is not the same as the swastica. The bhudist symbol has its prongs going the other way. So as long as you're flag's prongs went the oposite way as the swastica's, and your nation had some bhudist theme somewhere (slogan, name, etc) is it correct that you could fly the symbol in question as your flag, or would you be asked to change your flag still?

Blackpudding']What are you talking about? You're seriously saying that it happened so long ago that no-one cares so the flags are OK?
Not at all. I'm saying that unlike the Nazi banner, the American flag doesn't just represent the war on terror. Nazi symbology only represents one regime that was based on a racist ideology and that committed atrocities unlike any before. This is why the Nazi flag and the SS runes are banned, because that is all they stand for.
Blackpudding']The GITMO and Afghanistan comments were about current times, torture and murder in the name of tracking down an enemy who is still at large, and mostly, non-existant. Those are currently happening so, on the basis of establishing a link between one country's actions vs. another country's, they are on topic.They may be on topic, but they in no way compare to the holocaust. I'm going to assume you haven't been to a former concentration camp before, because I don't think you're a holocaust denier. If you see what was done there with your own eyes, you might think twice about comparing them to the torture and murder that is occuring in the name of freedom, as wrong as that may be.

Just a brief comment here, the ancient bhudist symbol that looks like a swastica is not the same as the swastica. The bhudist symbol has its prongs going the other way. So as long as you're flag's prongs went the oposite way as the swastica's, and your nation had some bhudist theme somewhere (slogan, name, etc) is it correct that you could fly the symbol in question as your flag, or would you be asked to change your flag still?The different direction thing is a common misconception. It's wrong. I've never seen an Indian draw it differently.

Blackpudding']Really? Ask anyone in the ME.
Yeah, but ask someone in the United States, what he thinks when he sees the US flag and ask a german what he thinks when he sees the third reich flag. You will see where the diffrence between the both flag lies.

"We bombed your grandparents"

Classic.

I have a question concerning the interpretation of the ban. I've seen a flag around that had what I thought was SS runes, but it was too small to be sure (since jpegs tend to distort a little). Is that still legal or is one responsible to avoid circumstances in which such misunderstandings can occur?

I get so ticked off when I see an iron cross. Why are swastikas considered evil but iron crosses are okay. They are both symbols of nazis.Becuase the Iron Cross is not a Nazi symbol per-se, it was a symbol of the Prussian Empire, and possibly even earlier. Nazis didn't fully take in the symbol, but just added their logos on top of to add legitamacy to their regime from a propaganda point of view.

Not at all. I'm saying that unlike the Nazi banner, the American flag doesn't just represent the war on terror. Nazi symbology only represents one regime that was based on a racist ideology and that committed atrocities unlike any before. This is why the Nazi flag and the SS runes are banned, because that is all they stand for.
They may be on topic, but they in no way compare to the holocaust. I'm going to assume you haven't been to a former concentration camp before, because I don't think you're a holocaust denier. If you see what was done there with your own eyes, you might think twice about comparing them to the torture and murder that is occuring in the name of freedom, as wrong as that may be.

So the ethnic cleansing of the native americans was OK?

I'm not a holocaust denier, but that doesnt make me a holocaust believer either. What about the guy who went there and could find a trace of any of the chemicals supposedly used to kill people. The international jewish community were quick to denounce him as an anti-semite. But I stray off topic.

In the name of freedom?

Best laugh I've had in years junior.

Blackpudding']So the ethnic cleansing of the native americans was OK?As far as I can remember, that doesn't go on anymore.
Blackpudding']I'm not a holocaust denier, but that doesnt make me a holocaust believer either.See, if you'd actually gone to one, you would find people that consider it a matter of "faith" just as bad as deniers with the exception that they might change their mind.
Blackpudding']What about the guy who went there and could find a trace of any of the chemicals supposedly used to kill people. The international jewish community were quick to denounce him as an anti-semite.Sounds like bullshit to me too, actually. I'm not going to bother listing the things I've seen that refute any "investigation" as to whether the chemicals were used. You can come visit any number of these (http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/eur72160.htm) if you'd like to find out.
Blackpudding']
In the name of freedom? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Bush claims to be protecting American freedom then isn't what he is doing in the name of freedom, whether he does it for freedom or not? This isn't an anti- or pro-Bush thread. You can find my opinion on that in the General forum.

I have a question concerning the interpretation of the ban. I've seen a flag around that had what I thought was SS runes, but it was too small to be sure (since jpegs tend to distort a little). Is that still legal or is one responsible to avoid circumstances in which such misunderstandings can occur?
If you can find it again, would you mind linking it here? At a glance, though, "too small to be sure" means "err on the side of caution" and allow it.

If you can find it again, would you mind linking it here? At a glance, though, "too small to be sure" means "err on the side of caution" and allow it.Here goes (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_nation/nation=adolph%20hilter)
I thought it might have been checked and I didn't want to name any names unless asked for them, since most of the flags in the region already had the generic one and I assumed it had been swept.

Edit: This one (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/73373/page=display_nation/nation=the_confederate_empire) wasn't too small, though...

Thanks. The second one is definitely out; I could just see the first one being a crappy resize job that made something otherwise allowable but stylized look SSish. Gonna err on the side of caution for that one.

Actually, I know about that region.

Before the rules clarification, the flag of the second was the official flag of the region. All members had that flag, or were kicked.

Talk to Fris or check IRC log of #themodcave... I explained it there.

*sigh* This is gonna be a lonnnnng night of enforcement... *laces up the ol' Combat Boots of Justice once more*

Sounds like bullshit to me too, actually. I'm not going to bother listing the things I've seen that refute any "investigation" as to whether the chemicals were used. You can come visit any number of these (http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/eur72160.htm) if you'd like to find out.


Well done, Laerod. You have done the NS world and the real people who play this game a tremendous public service.

I'm not a holocaust denier, but that doesnt make me a holocaust believer either.

I am reminded here of the quote by South African Archibishop and human rights activist / Nobel Peace Prize winner Desmond Tutu, which he said (paraphase from memory): "The mouse who's tail is being stepped on by the elephant will not appreciate your neutrality."

Nazism is indefensible. And comparing it with other horrors in human history will not make Nazism (and its banners and symbols) any more alluring.

Well done, Laerod. You have done the NS world and the real people who play this game a tremendous public service.I'm touchy when it comes to my heritage. Stems from the fact that I take it seriously.
Thanks for the appreciation :)

Until told otherwise I'm just cracking down on SS and Totenkopf insignia given that there's really no other way to interpret them. Co-opted Norse runes... ehhh...

Until told otherwise I'm just cracking down on SS and Totenkopf insignia given that there's really no other way to interpret them. Co-opted Norse runes... ehhh...The Totenkopf were originally used by Hussars from some German state back in the day, but considering what they were used for during the Nazi era, I don't mind at all.

OK, I can understand the swassie being banned for certain uses. However, are religious symbols banned altogether? The reason I ask is certain religions use the swassie as a religious symbol. (Like mine) So to me a flag with, say... a cross or a crucifix is just as bad a connotation and is offensive to me, (They nearly wiped out practitioners my religion) especially given the hatred of many Asatru symbols by all of you.. Please clarify that.

After doing a search I have seen several flags using christian, jewish etc... symbols, yet, because one group of pissant people (those damn nazis) bigotry exists towards a symbol of peace.

Basically, I don't want to use the swassie or anything but I think it is bigoted to just plain ban it. I am offended by things every day, does that mean I am going to go around and call for a ban on everything that offends me?

Whatever those jerks did with it, that symbol, as well as the triskelion and many other "offensive" symbols have been around far longer than the Nazi party.

People need to learn to take a stand and not kowtow to people that find things offensive that they truly know nothing about.

OK, I can understand the swassie being banned for certain uses. However, are religious symbols banned altogether? The reason I ask is certain religions use the swassie as a religious symbol. (Like mine) So to me a flag with, say... a cross or a crucifix is just as bad a connotation and is offensive to me, (They nearly wiped out practitioners my religion) especially given the hatred of many Asatru symbols by all of you.. Please clarify that.

After doing a search I have seen several flags using christian, jewish etc... symbols, yet, because one group of pissant people (those damn nazis) bigotry exists towards a symbol of peace.

Basically, I don't want to use the swassie or anything but I think it is bigoted to just plain ban it. I am offended by things every day, does that mean I am going to go around and call for a ban on everything that offends me?

Whatever those jerks did with it, that symbol, as well as the triskelion and many other "offensive" symbols have been around far longer than the Nazi party.

People need to learn to take a stand and not kowtow to people that find things offensive that they truly know nothing about.Please read through the entire thread. Your questions were addressed several times.

Please read through the entire thread. Your questions were addressed several times.

I searched about religion, even in this thread but all my searches came up empty. I apologize if I just missed them due to that.

That doesn't change the fact I find bigotry towards my heritage and religious symbols apalling and feel that anyone that is, is not far off from being a Nazi themselves.

That is my personal opinion of bigots of any breed, not an attack on anyone.

I searched about religion, even in this thread but all my searches came up empty. I apologize if I just missed them due to that.

That doesn't change the fact I find bigotry towards my heritage and religious symbols apalling and feel that anyone that is, is not far off from being a Nazi themselves.

That is my personal opinion of bigots of any breed, not an attack on anyone.I can understand that you might have difficulties understanding just what the swastika means in countries that experienced German occupation and aggression. I've mentioned an incident with an Indian student at my university. After a bit of convincing, he decided to write "luck and happiness" in the spots he wanted to put the swastika.
This thread has been less about religion than about symbols. Searching doesn't really make up for reading it. So far no one's really bothered to mention "religion". Only Indian culture so far.

Remember guys and gals, the mods are working as hard as they can to implement this policy effectively and fairly. Please bear with us here and work with us.

Thank you.

I can understand that you might have difficulties understanding just what the swastika means in countries that experienced German occupation and aggression. I've mentioned an incident with an Indian student at my university. After a bit of convincing, he decided to write "luck and happiness" in the spots he wanted to put the swastika.
This thread has been less about religion than about symbols. Searching doesn't really make up for reading it. So far no one's really bothered to mention "religion". Only Indian culture so far.

Then the cross needs to be banned as well. Or the star of david. Any symbol that "may" be offensive to someone else. Once you start banning symbols, the next process is banning books. Then well, you end up just like the Nazi party. Is this site a game? or a political statement.

If people are wanting to remain ignorant about what a symbol truly means, that isn't the fault of people wanting to use that symbol, or people that find the banning of that symbol offensive.

I would say.. if it was used in a blatantly Nazi way, fine, delete it. If I made a plain white flag with a norse swassie on it and my nation is obviously norse geared, such as my nation of Odinsfist, it should be allowed.

I can understand that you might have difficulties understanding just what the swastika means in countries that experienced German occupation and aggression.

Not to mention, I find this comment very condescending. I am a college graduate that majored in History. You don't know what I do or do not understand, and don't assume you do.

So far, I have seen nothing but hate and ignorance here. Surprisingly, it is not coming from people like that National Socialist a few pages back. It is from people that cater to the fear and prejudice. The only way that will end is to stop kowtowing to the general (misinformed) public.

Remember guys and gals, the mods are working as hard as they can to implement this policy effectively and fairly. Please bear with us here and work with us.

Thank you.

I can understand you are trying, but banning something outright out of fear is not very fair. I'm not all that worked up over the issue as I may seem. In forums it is very hard to show tone.

I just hope to see a little bit more knowledge being gained by people instead of just feeding people's ignorance (as in not being educated about a certain subject.)

Otherwise.. Great game. ;)

Last I am saying on the issue is that it is policies like this that fuel people calling me a Nazi whenever I leave my house wearing a swastika. It only fuels the ignorance instead of teaching the true nature of the symbol.

I'm done with my complaint.

Well done website. ;)

Then the cross needs to be banned as well. Or the star of david. Any symbol that "may" be offensive to someone else. You didn't read the posts. The arguement isn't "may offend", but "will offend a majority". There's a poll going on as to what the hammer and sickle means, and there's about 74-76% that aren't in any way offended.
Once you start banning symbols, the next process is banning books. Then well, you end up just like the Nazi party.Germany hasn't ended up like the Nazis after they were ousted. Nazi symbology has been deemed unconstitutional and is therefore banned, but that was where it ended. Nazis can still get away with a lot of crap. Setting a limit to acceptable doesn't mean that that limit will be pushed further. We've had over 50 years of experience with this and your grim scenario hasn't come true.
Is this site a game? or a political statement.Both. Some people take it more political, some people more gaming. I don't see why someone just playing needs to be able to display hateful symbols on their flag.
Not to mention, I find this comment very condescending. I am a college graduate that majored in History. You don't know what I do or do not understand, and don't assume you do. This place is full of assumptions, I'm not immune to it. If I insulted you, I apologize, but I have noticed that many of my fellow Americans don't take the swastika as seriously as I do and since you mentioned your heritage, I recalled an example I could give, that basically showed that if you really care, you would be willing to forgoe your cultural "right" in order to prevent Nazis from abusing it.
So far, I have seen nothing but hate and ignorance here. Surprisingly, it is not coming from people like that National Socialist a few pages back. It is from people that cater to the fear and prejudice. The only way that will end is to stop kowtowing to the general (misinformed) public.I'm going to have to ask you to point out the "fear" and "prejudice". I'll openly admit to my hate for National Socialism, but that most certainly does not stem from ignorance.

Germany hasn't ended up like the Nazis after they were ousted. Nazi symbology has been deemed unconstitutional and is therefore banned,

I know. I have a nonNazi German Asatruar friend that is in jail for wearing his religious symbol. I am guessing you think that is OK. The way it sounds you do.

but that was where it ended. Nazis can still get away with a lot of crap. Setting a limit to acceptable doesn't mean that that limit will be pushed further. We've had over 50 years of experience with this and your grim scenario hasn't come true.

See my statement above.

Both. Some people take it more political, some people more gaming. I don't see why someone just playing needs to be able to display hateful symbols on their flag.

It's only hateful to those that assume it is only Nazi. It is people like you that keep the hate to people like me going. Be proud.

This place is full of assumptions, I'm not immune to it. If I insulted you, I apologize, but I have noticed that many of my fellow Americans don't take the swastika as seriously as I do and since you mentioned your heritage, I recalled an example I could give, that basically showed that if you really care, you would be willing to forgoe your cultural "right" in order to prevent Nazis from abusing it.

If I give up my heritage and a piece of my religion, why even be a part of that religion? The symbol has been around for 8000 years... Nazis? Around 80.

I'm going to have to ask you to point out the "fear" and "prejudice". I'll openly admit to my hate for National Socialism, but that most certainly does not stem from ignorance.

Maybe not about National Socialism, but you are ignorant about swastikas, you have proven that.

I tried to send this by PM instead of adding to the thread. I couldn't find it.. GAH!

Everyone look at the first page please...

']SNIP
A swastika with little flowers and happy faces, on a nation called "The Friendly Nazis": fine
/snipSo what is wrong with putting your religious swastika the correct way, putting little flowers on the flag with it, maybe even say 'Pease and Happiness' and then using it? Mods, that sound okay?

I've seen another type of religous swastika, one that wasn't used by the Nazis, but mimicked by some sects of Christianity (cant recall witch, but I remember seeing it in school... just replace the 4 dots with mini-crosses). To make easily in pixel form for a flag, it is as follows:

· · ·
·
·····
·
· · ·I presume this too would be Crickett?

I know. I have a nonNazi German Asatruar friend that is in jail for wearing his religious symbol. I am guessing you think that is OK. The way it sounds you do.You've accused me of false assumptions. Now you do the same to me. I'd personally consider it common sense not to wear a swastika in public because other people will not interpret it the way you want it to be interpreted. I can understand if someone wears it out of ignorance, but it's a sign of respect not to wear such religious symbols in public.

It's only hateful to those that assume it is only Nazi. It is people like you that keep the hate to people like me going. Be proud.Nope. It's hateful to those that know who the Nazi party was. I've heard your arguements on freedom of religious symbols before. You are, however, the first non Nazi I've heard them from.
People like me? I'm sorry if you have a problem with me finding a national symbol that stands for the worst atrocities in mankind's history and that this symbol was stolen from your culture.
If I give up my heritage and a piece of my religion, why even be a part of that religion? The symbol has been around for 8000 years... Nazis? Around 80.More like 13 years. Don't give it up. Just use common sense. Symbols under which many people have lost relations to are not necessarily a clever thing to flaunt in public.

Maybe not about National Socialism, but you are ignorant about swastikas, you have proven that.And you have proven to be ignorant of what the swastika means to me and a majority of others. The fact that you find it more important to flaunt your symbol than respect other peoples' feelings isn't necessarily something I find you should be proud of.

You've accused me of false assumptions. Now you do the same to me.

I apologize.

I'd personally consider it common sense not to wear a swastika in public because other people will not interpret it the way you want it to be interpreted. I can understand if someone wears it out of ignorance, but it's a sign of respect not to wear such religious symbols in public.

I don't want to go into how many people christians killed over the last 2 millenia, but I could. Religious symbols are religious symbols. All should be respected as much as the next. Ignorance about the symbol itself is no excuse.

Nope. It's hateful to those that know who the Nazi party was. I've heard your arguements on freedom of religious symbols before. You are, however, the first non Nazi I've heard them from.

Very few Asatruars are Nazis. Many are Folkish, like me, and many are not. The ones you are talking about generally call themselves Odinists.

People like me? I'm sorry if you have a problem with me finding a national symbol that stands for the worst atrocities in mankind's history and that this symbol was stolen from your culture.

Have you ever read much about scandinavian history? People that were beheaded by christians because they refused to convert? People starved for the same reason. I could send you links. Like you said earlier, look at the communist symbols.

What if the new Nazi party uses bunnies as their symbols are you going to ban those as well?

More like 13 years. Don't give it up. Just use common sense. Symbols under which many people have lost relations to are not necessarily a clever thing to flaunt in public.

If the public is going to be ignorant why should I kowtow to them?

And you have proven to be ignorant of what the swastika means to me and a majority of others. The fact that you find it more important to flaunt your symbol than respect other peoples' feelings isn't necessarily something I find you should be proud of.

You shouldn't be flaunting your feelings about a symbol of my religion. You know there is a name for that, religious bigotry. It's just as bad as racial bigotry, or any other bigotry.

Now, I am done with this particular debate. There are places I could go to if I want to debate religious bigots. My thoughts about the kinds of people here have rapidly degraded. All because of one person that wants to throw his hate around.

He does bring up a good point though. If you are willing to ban one religous symbol because some one twisted it into a hateful symbol, why not just ban all religous symbols? I can think about all the deaths that the Christans cause in the name of religon, but that symbol isn't hated. Just think about all the "right and holy" wars of the Middle ages.

Now, I am done with this particular debate. There are places I could go to if I want to debate religious bigots. My thoughts about the kinds of people here have rapidly degraded. All because of one person that wants to throw his hate around.Yeah, I can't stand religious bigots either.
As for the hate, I think you mean me. I don't throw it "around". I make sure to fling it at a certain group that capitalizes on "MY" heritage. Please don't think I hate you or that I've been directing anything of the sort at you. You don't deserve my contempt.

He does bring up a good point though. If you are willing to ban one religous symbol because some one twisted it into a hateful symbol, why not just ban all religous symbols? I can think about all the deaths that the Christans cause in the name of religon, but that symbol isn't hated. Just think about all the "right and holy" wars of the Middle ages.What do most people think of when they see a swastika? Nazism (whether or not they know that it has another meaning). What do most people think of when they see a cross? Christianity. Nazism has done no good whatsoever without doing harm in order to get it done. Christianity is behind the crusades, but also behind the Caritas. That's the difference.

I apologize.Thank you.
I don't want to go into how many people christians killed over the last 2 millenia, but I could. Religious symbols are religious symbols. All should be respected as much as the next. Ignorance about the symbol itself is no excuse.With all due respect, but I could go on about what good the Caritas does nowadays and how the Nazi party has failed to do anything as benevolent. Unlike Nazism, Christianity or the USA or the British Empire are not solely about wiping out the unwanted and establishing a thousand year empire of "racial purity".
Very few Asatruars are Nazis. Many are Folkish, like me, and many are not. The ones you are talking about generally call themselves Odinists.I didn't say that. I'm saying that your arguements, though not as well thought through, have only been used against me by Nazis so far. On a side note, I just visited several Asatruar sites and I haven't seen a single swastika. It seems to me like it is possible to live without it.
Have you ever read much about scandinavian history? People that were beheaded by christians because they refused to convert? People starved for the same reason. I could send you links. Like you said earlier, look at the communist symbols.No need. It happened in Germany too. Charlemagne had a lot of Saxons butchered until they converted.

What if the new Nazi party uses bunnies as their symbols are you going to ban those as well?I don't intend to let the next Nazi party gain power.

If the public is going to be ignorant why should I kowtow to them? They call it being polite.
You shouldn't be flaunting your feelings about a symbol of my religion. You know there is a name for that, religious bigotry. It's just as bad as racial bigotry, or any other bigotry.You miss a very important point. I'm not against the symbol because of your religion, I'm against it because it is called the "Hakenkreuz" and because it was THE symbol of Nazism.

It's fairly simple really, as an average guy looking at each symbol I think:

Swastika: Strongly associated with the Nazi party who are still strong in the memory of many for their attrocities during the 2nd world war. Seeing a flag in nationstates with the Swastika will usually bring the average poster to think that nation is associating itself with the Nazi Party, either for IC character or otherwise.

However, as [violet] clearly stated at the start of the thread (and has been ignored by several posters who don't care about the content of the new ruling) the Swastika isn't entirely banned anymore as it's more about the principle behind each nations flag. A Swastika on it's own isn't acceptable as it's still associated with a party which commited genocide, however if that Swastika is clearly not associated with the Nazi Party but is instead clearly a religious symbol with the nation named cleared to represent their support for the budhist (sp) symbol then it is acceptable.


The Christian Cross: When I look at the cross I automatically think about the religion associated with it; I'm not offended by someone just because they are christian and personally I would think that someone who automatically takes offence with another poster just because they have a religious belief is rather intolerant. Christians in the past have done some nasty things, but then again you can look at many different religions and say the same thing, same goes for most nations too as they have all got dark periods. Eitherway, the cross itself doesn't represent these dark periods, but the religion as a whole, good and bad so it's acceptable.

It's not acceptable, as [violet] clearly stated, if it's used with a nation that clearly celebrates deaths associated with that symbol. It's the principle behind the use of each symbol which matters here. Using the christian cross on a nation called "Pro-life Pipe Bombers" will definately result in a ban (though the nations name would probably be more a reason to delete them then the flag).

Next time, read Violets first post entirely and understand what she's getting at, personally I support this new method of judging flags... it means that people who incist that the Swastika is a religious symbol which is acceptable they can use it so long as they make sure it's clear that they aren't supporting Nazism.

[QUOTE=Pure Perfection]I for one agree, if we are to ban any, and every nazi, and neo-nazi symbol, to be fair we should ban Communist symbols. Now, correct me if i'm wrong, I won't mind :p, but if I recall dosen't the rules page "Your flag cannot state a strong political standpoint." When you see the hammer and sickle, you see Communisim, which is a strong political standpoint.QUOTE]

I disagree.qith this. Although i can understand why people would be offended by Communist symbols, the communist party is a legitimate political group in many democracies, whilst facist groups are generally banned.

Fitzopia']I disagree.qith this. Although i can understand why people would be offended by Communist symbols, the communist party is a legitimate political group in many democracies, whilst facist groups are generally banned.Nope. Fascist or Neo-Nazi parties are legal in just about every European country I know as long as they play by the rules. But they aren't generally allowed to display Nazi symbols, if that's what you mean.

Nope. Fascist or Neo-Nazi parties are legal in just about every European country I know as long as they play by the rules. But they aren't generally allowed to display Nazi symbols, if that's what you mean.

I was unaware of this. Personally I am opposed to outlawing symbols or parties that may be offensive to some, based solely on the reason that it actually works to their advantage in that it drives them underground and makes them much harder to identify.
I have a friend by the name of József Szájer who is or was the vice chairman of the Hungarian Paliment and he tells me that in Hungary both Nazi and Communist symbols are outlawed. He has also informed me that they are preparing legislation to be introduced on the European level for banning both to avoid the double standard. I believe that Mr Szájer is also an EU rep and his confidence in the matter leads me to believe that the trend is in favor of making the communist symbols illegal as well. It will be very interesting to see how this develops.

As far as I can remember, that doesn't go on anymore.
See, if you'd actually gone to one, you would find people that consider it a matter of "faith" just as bad as deniers with the exception that they might change their mind.
Sounds like bullshit to me too, actually. I'm not going to bother listing the things I've seen that refute any "investigation" as to whether the chemicals were used. You can come visit any number of these (http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/eur72160.htm) if you'd like to find out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Bush claims to be protecting American freedom then isn't what he is doing in the name of freedom, whether he does it for freedom or not? This isn't an anti- or pro-Bush thread. You can find my opinion on that in the General forum.

Theres developing your point and theres jumping around from one thing to another.

As far as you remember that doesnt go on anymore? Neither does the ethnic cleansing of naturalized german jews.

Now I'm no Nazi but even I have to admit the symbology is some of the coolest and most uncompromising around. Lightning flashes, eagles, skulls. Theres another country that features those on its flags too; the US.

So you've been to a concentration camp. I already mentioned my history teacher who spent more time on educating us about the holocaust than anything else. I've seen plenty of videos and testimonies.

You still miss my point. Because you and your mod buddies will be uniquely offended by an 8,000 year old religous symbol doesnt mean that others wont be just as offended by the flag of my country.

Political, idealogical and religous bullshit aside, you ban one you ban them all. No country is lily white. Just another round of hysterical PC bandwagon jumping by people who get offended on other peoples behalf.

Blackpudding']As far as you remember that doesnt go on anymore? Neither does the ethnic cleansing of naturalized german jews. Note how the usage of the flag to represent a country has ceased too. You missed my point. In fact, the ethnic cleansing of the jews ceased roughly at the same time as the flag was used to represent Germany. Therefore, it represented and still represents the regime in its 13 years.
Blackpudding']
Now I'm no Nazi but even I have to admit the symbology is some of the coolest and most uncompromising around. Lightning flashes, eagles, skulls. Theres another country that features those on its flags too; the US.Don't get me wrong, I don't consider you a Nazi. I consider you very misguided, but by no means a Nazi (I suggest looking around on their regional message boards to see what kind of crap arguements THEY come up with).
As for the banning of lightning flashes, eagles, and skulls, I don't recall eagles getting banned. In fact, I think it's perfectly alright with the mods if a flag has the Nazi Eagle as long as the swastika in the wreath is removed. The other stuff is very specific stuff being banned, for instance I'm pretty sure you can get away with a pirate flag, even though it also contains a skull. The Deathshead used by the concentration camp SS may have been used by hussars before, but considering what it became...
Blackpudding']
So you've been to a concentration camp. I already mentioned my history teacher who spent more time on educating us about the holocaust than anything else. I've seen plenty of videos and testimonies. It seems to me like they failed their purpose. I've found the real locations and the survivors in the flesh as more real than watching black and white videos.Blackpudding']You still miss my point. Because you and your mod buddies will be uniquely offended by an 8,000 year old religous symbol doesnt mean that others wont be just as offended by the flag of my country.
The mods are not responsible for the policy, they are responsible for enforcing it. "Uniquely offended"? Start a poll, find out if there is no majority that will be offended and then I'll believe you. Until then, your point is moot.
Blackpudding']
Political, idealogical and religous bullshit aside, you ban one you ban them all. No country is lily white. Just another round of hysterical PC bandwagon jumping by people who get offended on other peoples behalf.The PC bandwagon arguement is ideological bullshit, by the way. As for no country being lily white, I've never denied it. The 3rd Reich was pitch black enough to be a fine contrast though.

Blackpudding']Political, idealogical and religous bullshit aside, you ban one you ban them all. No country is lily white. Just another round of hysterical PC bandwagon jumping by people who get offended on other peoples behalf.

It's slightly off-topic, but you made me remember something.

When I was at the 2005 National Jamboree, one day I felt like going boating. So I grabbed my two towels, put on my swimming trunks, and headed off to the boating area. But I was curious.

You see, both of the towels I have I bought at a South Carolina tourist shop -- they were both the Stars and Bars, the Confederate Battle Flag. Well, I was curious, so I wore the towels like a robe, clearly displaying the Stars and Bars for everyone to see.

I had three white people try to push me down, and five shouted at me for being a racist. The four blacks that came up to me said "nice towel."

Just bothered me.

====
Oh, and on free speech.

Nationstates is a privately owned website, hence Max Barry has the right to do whatever the hell he wants with it. If he wanted to delete all from his site, he'd have every right to do so, and technically no legal action could be taken, because Nationstates is a [i]PRIVATELY OWNED site.

Anyways, that's my two cents.

How do you create a JPG file so that you can draw your flag?

Nope. Fascist or Neo-Nazi parties are legal in just about every European country I know as long as they play by the rules. But they aren't generally allowed to display Nazi symbols, if that's what you mean.

Germany doesn't allow political parties that go against their constitution. ;)

Germany doesn't allow political parties that go against their constitution. ;)The constitution allows for a lot though...
For some reason they can't get banned for clearly stating their party policy being getting rid of the democratic order because that's freedom of speach. They just need a party constitution and elections for party leadership (which is why the NPD claims it's so much better than the NSDAP).

I have a question.
Why not just let everyone choose whatever flag they want [excluding XXX, Nudity, ETC] no matter what you do someone may have that view and someone could get offended by just looking at some random drawing you make.......

I have a question.
Why not just let everyone choose whatever flag they want [excluding XXX, Nudity, ETC] no matter what you do someone may have that view and someone could get offended by just looking at some random drawing you make.......Maybe you should read the original post. It actually answers your question.

Well, IMO, everything should be allowed (minus porn, etc) because of freedom of expression and speech. However, I can definitely see why people would want to ban Nazi signs, etc.

But again, my original post stands, as does the first post of the thread.

Well, IMO, everything should be allowed (minus porn, etc) because of freedom of expression and speech. However, I can definitely see why people would want to ban Nazi signs, etc.

But again, my original post stands, as does the first post of the thread.Why do you think porn shouldn't be allowed?

Why do you think porn shouldn't be allowed?

Because that's actually illegal in some nations. Remember, minors play this game. I'm one of them.

Also, if you decide to allow porn* then what's the limit? In NationStates as of now, weed and several light drugs are allowed in flags. But sex with animals, illegal in many countries except Denmark, Netherlands and some other countries and the American state of Washington, shouldn't be banned? I'm following the same drugs logic but applied on sex. Or what kind of sex? Only softporn or hardcore stuff? It doesn't make sense to say "everything should be allowed, that's true freedom of speech!" Banning the SS thunderbolts is a bit too political correct in my opinion, but this is a privately owned site - can't say much else about it. Just apply common sense, and you'll go far in life. And why moan, bitch and cry? You still have your tottenkopf, aryan pride and other neo-aryanism, neo-nazism and what-not symbols at your disposal.

* this is an example, not a proposal. Do not quote me on this.

Because that's actually illegal in some nations. True, but by that arguement, anything on this page (http://www.polizei.hessen.de/internetzentral/broker.jsp?uMen=d2570ee1-825a-f6f8-6373-a91bbcb63046) needs to be banned, since it happens to be illegal in some countries.

I'd personally go by the arguement that both are offensive, but illegality is not really a valid arguement, since we'd have to ban a lot more.

True, but by that arguement, anything on this page (http://www.polizei.hessen.de/internetzentral/broker.jsp?uMen=d2570ee1-825a-f6f8-6373-a91bbcb63046) needs to be banned, since it happens to be illegal in some countries.

I'd personally go by the arguement that both are offensive, but illegality is not really a valid arguement, since we'd have to ban a lot more.

Not entirely. Illegality can't be a sole argument, but you can't completely deny it's validity. Since in most if not all Western nations, pornography is illegal to view and obviously participate in for minors, while Nazi symbols are only illegal in one or two. Besides, it's only illegal to display them, IIRC, not to see them.

Banning the SS thunderbolts is a bit too political correct in my opinion...
Why?

Why?

I'm gonna have to go with Laerod on this one. If you could only ban either the swastika or the SS thunderbolts, it'd make more sense to ban the thunderbolts, since the thunderbolt's only purpose is to represent the Schutzstaffel, which ran the camps. However, the swastika is a major religious symbol for a few religions.

Unless I'm mistaken.

I'm gonna have to go with Laerod on this one. If you could only ban either the swastika or the SS thunderbolts, it'd make more sense to ban the thunderbolts, since the thunderbolt's only purpose is to represent the Schutzstaffel, which ran the camps. However, the swastika is a major religious symbol for a few religions.

Unless I'm mistaken.Actually, a lot of SS people weren't involved in the camps. The SS with the Deathshead insignia were the concentration camp units...

Why?NationStates has always been advocating free sharing of political beliefs. Banning SS thunderbolts now just doesn't make any sense, since they have been legal until [violet] posted this thread. Banning them now just seems like an attempt to make NS 'nicer' and more 'child friendly'.

PS: The SS thunderbolts was the universal SS emblem, the deathheads(tottenkopf) were a division of the SS.

NationStates has always been advocating free sharing of political beliefs. Banning SS thunderbolts now just doesn't make any sense, since they have been legal until [violet] posted this thread. Banning them now just seems like an attempt to make NS 'nicer' and more 'child friendly'.No. The sig rune has been technically illegal all along. The rules are just being clarified with this thread, not revised.
PS: The SS thunderbolts was the universal SS emblem, the deathheads(tottenkopf) were a division of the SS.It's Totenkopf. And where did I state otherwise? I'm pretty sure I know a lot more on my history than you do, so please don't try and berate me (unless you were responding to Derscon, then I apologize).

I dunno if this has been brought up, but what about other symbols of hate?

Things like the Odin rune, used by many white supremacist groups?

Or maybe skinhead symbols such as HFFH and 14/88? Or Klan symbols such as 33/6 and 311?

As a Jew, I am intimately familiar with hate. Much of the above offends me to the very core of my being. Why stop at just the SS runes and swastika?

As a Jew, I am intimately familiar with hate. Much of the above offends me to the very core of my being. Why stop at just the SS runes and swastika?If it were up to me, those things would go too, because they offend me as a German (I positively hate it when people capitalize on a part of my history that I'm proud of not being proud of). But it isn't up to me, so I suppose the satisfaction of reading the whiny complaints of the racists' regions will have to do (welcomed the SS troops with flowers my left kidney!) :D

I dunno if this has been brought up, but what about other symbols of hate?

Things like the Odin rune, used by many white supremacist groups?

Or maybe skinhead symbols such as HFFH and 14/88? Or Klan symbols such as 33/6 and 311?

As a Jew, I am intimately familiar with hate. Much of the above offends me to the very core of my being. Why stop at just the SS runes and swastika?

Why don't you just ban everything else while you're at it?

Frankly, I don't know the problem here. It's pure political corectness, and to bow over just becuase a few people are offended, well, that's Bullshit.

[/Short Rant]

The point about other symbols, especially in regards to communist/American/British symbols, has already been established. The administration staff, as it seems, already made it's stance on symbols revolving and used around as a means of the representation of a hateful and prejudiced idelogy, and I think that'll be the final word from them.

Really, it's not too hard in not using one of the banned symbols mentioned in one's flag, regardless of the controversy surrounding whether a symbol is suitable for certain purposes or not.

Actually, a lot of SS people weren't involved in the camps. The SS with the Deathshead insignia were the concentration camp units...

Oh, right, sorry. Memory lapse.

Frankly, I don't know the problem here. It's pure political corectness, and to bow over just becuase a few people are offended, well, that's Bullshit.


No ... it has nothing to do with political correctness. Nazi, Skinhead, and Klan symbols have only one purpose: Hate.

It is more than just a few people who are offended by these symbols. These are symbols that represent everything that is vile and should be completely wiped out of any place designed for people to have fun and enjoy themselves. If your (not you, specifically) idea of "fun" is to brutalise people because of their ethnicity, then it is my suggestion that you (not you, specifically) get help.

It may be different for me than it is for you. When you see a swastika, you may think that it's no big deal. When I see a swastika, I see the symbol of a movement whose purpose was to destroy me and my people, to obliterate us from the world as though we are some stain that needs to be cleansed.

Someone more eloquent than I could maybe explain it better.

Or Klan symbols such as 33/6 and 311?311's a symbol of hate? Oh dear... Chicago uses that as a phone number for city services. SOMEONE CALL THE ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE AND THE NAACP! MAYOR DAILEY'S A RACIST KLANSMAN!

311's a symbol of hate? Oh dear... Chicago uses that as a phone number for city services. SOMEONE CALL THE ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE AND THE NAACP! MAYOR DAILEY'S A RACIST KLANSMAN!

Is this really necessary?
I hope this post I'm quoting will not escalate into a flame.

Why don't you just ban everything else while you're at it?

Frankly, I don't know the problem here. It's pure political corectness, and to bow over just becuase a few people are offended, well, that's Bullshit.

[/Short Rant]I feel sorry for you. Political correctness is a way of being polite. Some people have taken it to the extremes, making it impolite again. Sadly, that has given the impolite the arguement to get rid of it all.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=275081 Read this before you jump into conclusions about runes being banned, the lightning bolts, 14/88 flags and mottos.

PS: saying the Iron Cross should be banned as well is plain nonsense. http://www.flaggenlexikon.de/fdtl.htm Here's why, a complete index of all the present day state flags of Germany. Probably some are missing, but the Iron Cross is still used to this day, like the Japanese WWII flag in the Japanese naval forces.

Is this really necessary?
I hope this post I'm quoting will not escalate into a flame.
That was an example of sarcasm, aimed at those who take offense at every little thing. Not serious.

Not serious.Pity that serious is what this thread is about...

I have a question, actually. Why is there no policy on names and what is acceptable there? If it's only the flags then that doesn't really do much. There's the occasional name that, when coupled with the motto, is worse than a swastika. These rules apply to the flag too:
Any content that is:

obscene
illegal
threatening
malicious
defamatory
spam
This applies to your nation's name, motto, and other customizable fields...How do they apply to names? I would be interested to know if there is a ruling on this already, and if so, where I could find it.

I have a question, actually. Why is there no policy on names and what is acceptable there? If it's only the flags then that doesn't really do much. There's the occasional name that, when coupled with the motto, is worse than a swastika. These rules apply to the flag too:
How do they apply to names? I would be interested to know if there is a ruling on this already, and if so, where I could find it.

There IS a policy on names -- you've highlighted it yourself. If your name is obscene or malicious, your nation gets DEAT. We look at the whole package and yes, if your customized fields combined give us a hint that you're trying to be offensive, the nation is deleted.

311's a symbol of hate? Oh dear... Chicago uses that as a phone number for city services. SOMEONE CALL THE ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE AND THE NAACP! MAYOR DAILEY'S A RACIST KLANSMAN!

Ummm ... no. It's called "context". Some nation using 311 in their flag and their nation name is "Aryan Knights" and their motto is "Hang 'em High!", I'd quite readily assume that they are using 311 in the context of 3 11s or KKK (K being the 11th number of the alphabet).

Your extremism isn't necessary or productive.

Ummm ... no. It's called "context". Some nation using 311 in their flag and their nation name is "Aryan Knights" and their motto is "Hang 'em High!", I'd quite readily assume that they are using 311 in the context of 3 11s or KKK (K being the 11th number of the alphabet).

Your extremism isn't necessary or productive.

Ooh, so that's what 311 means...

What's 14/88 mean? I never figured that out.

I belive the 14 is "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children."

The 88 I know is HH, (H is the 8th letter of the alphabet) and theirfore, I think you can figure the rest of it out.

Small addition, 88 also stands for 88 precepts to protect the white race.

Imagine that... a hate-symbol serving double duty

Anyway, again I request of the mods to please consider a topic split, as while there is some good discussion here, it isn't really on the topic at hand (which is [violet]'s clarification on the rules)

At least, in my oppinion anyway.

I belive the 14 is "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children."

How does that tie in with fourteen?!?! o.O

There are 14 words...

as such, they are refered to as 'The 14 words'

We've actually had a case three years ago with our liberal party (yes, liberal means right from center) when a "rogue" state-level member that started a campaign based on 18% (Projekt 18) and who spread flyers highly critical of Israel and some high heads in the Jewish Central Council in Germany. It was pointed out, after he was blamed for how badly the party did, that 18 could be read as AH...

There's no reason why swasitikas should be banned when other political sybmols are not. And you are stereotyping, some people's thoughts at a Japanese flag goes right to the rape of Nanking and some people's thoughts on an Arab flag goes right to terrorists.

Laerod... dumb question...

Did you mean to say liveral means right from center as you did? In my country, liberals are to the left, conservitives (like myself) are to the right.

Germany doesn't follow the same convention?

[/HIJACK]

There are 14 words...

as such, they are refered to as 'The 14 words'

Ooh, okay.

Well, I'm finished with the off-topicness. Carry on.

We've actually had a case three years ago with our liberal party (yes, liberal means right from center) when a "rogue" state-level member that started a campaign based on 18% (Projekt 18) and who spread flyers highly critical of Israel and some high heads in the Jewish Central Council in Germany. It was pointed out, after he was blamed for how badly the party did, that 18 could be read as AH...

Hence the British neonazi group 'Combat 18.'

If anyone wants more information on hate symbols, logos and racist acronyms, this is the best place to get all your information

http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/default.asp

Laerod... dumb question...

Did you mean to say liveral means right from center as you did? In my country, liberals are to the left, conservitives (like myself) are to the right.

Germany doesn't follow the same convention?

[/HIJACK]I'm not gonna hijack the thread so I'll explain that, in the context I was saying it, the "liberal" as in "our liberal party" (me speaking as a German this time) means what liberal means in the convention, right from center. It has to do with the bipartisanship in the US that "liberal" is considered "left", because although it's right from center, it is indeed the only real left from the Republicans. But enough hijacking...
Kreynoria']There's no reason why swasitikas should be banned when other political sybmols are not. And you are stereotyping, some people's thoughts at a Japanese flag goes right to the rape of Nanking and some people's thoughts on an Arab flag goes right to terrorists.Maybe you should read the thread. It explains why the Japanese flag means more than the swastika (especially since it still gets used today). Here's where that's been addressed (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9450845&postcount=43).
As for Arab flags, I'm pretty sure the mods would be against it if someone could prove that someone had a Hamas or Islamic Jihad flag. As for Arab national flags, that would fall under the same reasoning as the American flag, which is that only a minority would become offended.

Sweet Jesu - is this still going on? I swear, this is one of the many subjects that gets instant attention/post boosts every damn time it comes up.

Yes, many of you have wonderful points for and against. Lovely. Bravissimo. Well done. I compliment you on your historical/miscellaneous knowledge, your well-phrased arguments, etc.

Now I know I'm going to get yelled at by someone for either stating the obvious or in their opinion, missing 'the point', but in my never to be humble opinion, the real point is this:

Max's site, Max's rules. You don't have to like 'em. If you use his site however, you do have to abide by 'em.

This swastika thing has been hashed and rehashed til I doubt any new riveting argument can possibly be brought to light by even the most eloquent of debators. Folks, it ain't happening. [violet] has posted a very detailed layout for what is and is not acceptable. You've got your answers, like it or not.

Is it possible we can move on now, or at the very least, move the debate to General where I'm sure they'll re-argue every possible angle to it - just like every other even mildly controversial subject I've seen there?

Move for a sticky and a close, or something. Seriously. Stick a fork in it, man. It's done.

I've just read right through this thread from its earliest post up to the latest one.
I don't have any objections to the swastika being banned, bearing in mind its usual connotations nowadays and that (as has already been said several times) this is Max's game and he has a right to say what's allowed in it... and also that some of the people playing 'Nazi' nations in Nationstates seem to be real Nazis (or at least Nazi wannabees...) rather than just roleplaying.
I AM one of the people who thinks that the Bolsheviks' hammer-&-sickle symbol should also be banned, but reluctantly accept that I'm in the minority as far as that's concerned.
However: One of the arguments that's been used for NOT banning communist insignia is that they refer to more than just Stalin's atrocities...
In that case, could there at least be a ruling that pictures of Stalin (unless obviously mocking him) are just as unacceptable as pictures of Hitler?

In that case, could there at least be a ruling that pictures of Stalin (unless obviously mocking him) are just as unacceptable as pictures of Hitler?I doubt it. I've seen too many pictures of prominent Nazis to think it will happen... :(
(That said, I'd support banning pictures of real-life criminals, unless they were being mocked)

Max's site, Max's rules. You don't have to like 'em. If you use his site however, you do have to abide by 'em.

Hasn't that been what I've been saying?

Hasn't that been what I've been saying?

Gee, Skippy, I dunno. Is it? :p

Is there something wrong with reiteration, or did you perhaps mistakenly think that for some reason my comments were directed to you personally? Gracious.

Again, waiting for this to be done - at least in this thread. If we're getting to posting just to say "see, toldja", surely it has run it's course.

Or not. *shrugs* Not a mod, not my call.

Or not. *shrugs* Not a mod, not my call.
I think [violet] started this thread with the intention of using it to clarify questions concerning flags. That's what it's for, it isn't really a discussion... I think...

Is the flag for The Armed Republic of Ankhtify acceptable? - I was just browsing and I came across it.
http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/94725/page=display_nation/nation=ankhtify

Thanks

Is the flag for The Armed Republic of Ankhtify acceptable? - I was just browsing and I came across it.
http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/94725/page=display_nation/nation=ankhtify

Thanks

I would say that Ankhtify's flag is not acceptable. I am not a mod, so I cannot make a ruling on it.

A Nazi symbol + Psychotic Dictatorship + "who outlaws just about everything and refers to the populace as "my little playthings."

I can see why some neonazis would be offended by it: ""See this flag? It belonged to a group of mental patients. You'll know them when you see them, because they are rallied by an easily identifyable icon. Wanna be mental too?"


I'm sorry for continuing the debate but, why do people need to banish symbols? You can't rid yourself of something unpleasant by ignoring it or hoping it will go away if nobody sees it (unless it's an unpleasant place you have and you ignore all the bills, then you probably can). This is part of our culture, and particularly the nazi part was something almost all westerners had a part in - luckily some lads woke up from the collective psychosis and did the right thing; but it's part of our history and part of our culture - it's who we are, and you learn from your mistakes - that's the human condition.
And it's disrespectful to the victims if we try to forget what somebody did to them over a long period with out saction or apathy.

Rather than banishing the symbols ban the idiots who misuse them. The act of provocation will always appeal to some 16 year olds. Using a swastika will seem cool to them, just like WRITING EVERYTHING WITH CAPS. Tell them not to and why rather than banning, only way to teach them...

In other words, go for the signal, not the symbol...

I'm sorry for continuing the debate but, why do people need to banish symbols? You can't rid yourself of something unpleasant by ignoring it or hoping it will go away if nobody sees it (unless it's an unpleasant place you have and you ignore all the bills, then you probably can). This is part of our culture, and particularly the nazi part was something almost all westerners had a part in - luckily some lads woke up from the collective psychosis and did the right thing; but it's part of our history and part of our culture - it's who we are, and you learn from your mistakes - that's the human condition.
And it's disrespectful to the victims if we try to forget what somebody did to them over a long period with out saction or apathy.The symbols are a constant reminder of what happened. They belong in museums and not on flags in NationStates. It would be disrespectful to forget, but just as much if we keep the horror alive.

Rather than banishing the symbols ban the idiots who misuse them. The act of provocation will always appeal to some 16 year olds. Using a swastika will seem cool to them, just like WRITING EVERYTHING WITH CAPS. Tell them not to and why rather than banning, only way to teach them...
In other words, go for the signal, not the symbol...The best way to combat the signal is with words, as we allow freedom of speech here. You can't do that when said individuals are gone. How can we teach if they're banned?

Again, bravo with the enlightened arguments and such. Very nice.

However, this site isn't about 'teaching the unenlightened' or 'bringing messages of peace' or what ever other happy shiny endeavors you may wish to assign it. Nor is it a haven for this supposed 'free speech' so many like tossing around. It's a marketing tool. And it's a privately owned site. The fact that it has grown, and has come to mean more than that to the users is entirely beside the point.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the thoughts and ideas. It's just that the bottom line is, as has been stated repeatedly by many, the site owner is well within his rights to lay down whatever guidelines he chooses. And in creating a nation on this site, we agree to abide by them. If you can't handle that, or dislike it so much that it 'ruins' your play here, you are free to leave to find greener pastures. It isn't as though any of us are paying for this, you know.

You want to make a difference and crusade? Take those ideals and well-meaning thoughts to the real world and work with 'em there. Or I suppose you can continue to, as the Poet once wrote, 'kick against the pricks' in General with the cyclical arguments that get continually brought up. Good luck with your efforts either way.

Regardless, I think it's been made more than clear that this particular ruling, while open enough to discussion, is not likely to be changed any time soon.

For those who think I'm calling General posters pricks, please go back and read Shakespeare. This particular turn of phrase refers to more 'banging your head against the wall' and such. Just for clarification.

Regardless, I think it's been made more than clear that this particular ruling, while open enough to discussion, is not likely to be changed any time soon.Yes, and I still think the point of this thread was to provide a source of clarification, especially regarding the moral reasons behind the rulings.

As far as I can see, havign a symbol on your flag is a sign of support for what is represents.

The hammer and sickle is a symbol of a communist/socialist ideology, which (excuse my glibness) says that we are all equal, and should be treated as such.

The swastika is a symbol of Nazi ideology which says that the Aryans are the master race, and which advocates anti-Semitism.

The difference is that Communism does not have purges, gulags, and state terror as part of its ideology - that was how it panned out in the USSR. Nazism directly advocates discrimination against others. Even in the real world, there are no countries that have a swastika on their flag, but there are still countries with the hammer and sickle. Bearing in mind that all flags have to be agreed by some international body before they can be used, if the real world has no problem with the hammer and sickle, then why should we?

The hammer and sickle is a symbol of a communist/socialist ideology, which (excuse my glibness) says that we are all equal, and should be treated as such.

The difference is that Communism does not have purges, gulags, and state terror as part of its ideology - that was how it panned out in the USSR. Nazism directly advocates discrimination against others.

So communism's by-product is pretty much the same as Nazism's aims. And that makes communism Ok in what way? You seem to be disproving your point.
Discrimination is discrimination, and genocide is genocide, no matter whether it is intentional or not.
And communism says we are all equal, except those who impliment it. So it doesn't actually say that at all.

So communism's by-product is pretty much the same as Nazism's aims.The bolded parts are what constitute the difference.

The Commonwealth of Tjuvholmen holds the opinion that the hammer and sickle is not an offensive symbol nor is it a symbol of hate.

Just because it happened to be on the flag of the Soviet Union during the rule of Stalin does not make it a symbol of hate and/or mass murder.

That would be like saying that the American flag is a symbol of hate due to the warmongering of George Bush! Or that the Japanese flag is a symbol of hate due to the war crimes they committed against the Chinese people.

We take the stance that the Soviet Union (Especially so during the rule of Stalin) was a very flawed implementation of the Communist system, and should not be considered the definition of what Communism is or is not. Just like you can't use Islamic extremists as a generalization of all Muslims.

However, we do support the banning of Nazi symbols since the "Nazi system"'s only purpose seemed to be hatred for others. They looked upon all others as inferior to them, as sub-humans.

We don't see how Communism in general can be compared to that. Communism in no way discrimates against others nor does it view others as not worthy of being considered human.

Also, it must be taken into consideration that Communist parties are active in just about every country on the face of the Earth and are officially recognized political parties in many of them, and in no way are they hate groups nor do they condone mass murder.

Just like religion, people may twist and use political systems for their own means. That doesn't make these religions or political systems hateful or "evil".

Furthermore, you cannot say that purges, etc, are a by-product of communism - yeah, it happened in Russia, but I don't think anyone who understands what communism is about would hold up the USSR as an example of "communism in action" - let's not beat about the bush, it was a brutal dictatorship which oppressed its peoples.

Just to relate this to the real world, the EU looked at banning Nazi symbols a while ago. Some MEPs fought to have this extended to Communist symbols as well, but this was rejected. Eventually the whole idea was shelved, with the EU saying it should be left up to each country to decide what they thought was appropriate. We're all really guests here in Max's domain, and he has decided what is and isn't appropriate, which I believe was a point made loooooong ago.

I only just made my nation a hour ago so spent 5 minutes making a flag.

Not sure what the symbol is, but hope its not something bad :rolleyes:

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/5245/flag21yb.gif

It looks to me like some sort of recycling symbol...?
Anyways, I like it - something different and kinda neat, actually!

I only just made my nation a hour ago so spent 5 minutes making a flag.

Not sure what the symbol is, but hope its not something bad :rolleyes:

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/5245/flag21yb.gifIf it isn't something that's obviously a swastika and it isn't intended to offend, I doubt there's any case against it. People can get away with Yggdrasil runes here.
I took a look at your flag and I see no reason why there should be anything wrong with it. It does look like a recycling symbol :p

I only just made my nation a hour ago so spent 5 minutes making a flag.

Not sure what the symbol is, but hope its not something bad :rolleyes:

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/5245/flag21yb.gif

Looks fine to me.

Oh
Just did a search from the name attacked to the image, i had just typed symbol into google and liked it

Its a Trilateral symbol.

Something to do with some commission set up in the 70s to promote cooperation between Japan, Northern America and Europe.
So guess its a nice symbol, even if it does look like recycle :p

Oh and it seems the commission has attracted allot of Alien conspiracy theories, so thats all good to :eek:

Regarding the hammer-&-sickle _
Various people have said that this symbol belongs to Communism as a whole, rather than specifically to the Soviet Union, and therefore shouldn't be associated solely with the Bolsheviks' atrocities, but [outside of NationStates] I only recall seeing it used in the context of the Soviet Union & that power's client-states... Has it [i]actually[/i ] had any Real-World use by non-Soviet-aligned Communists?

Regarding the hammer-&-sickle _
Various people have said that this symbol belongs to Communism as a whole, rather than specifically to the Soviet Union, and therefore shouldn't be associated solely with the Bolsheviks' atrocities, but [outside of NationStates] I only recall seeing it used in the context of the Soviet Union & that power's client-states... Has it [i]actually[/i ] had any Real-World use by non-Soviet-aligned Communists?

Angola, a former Portugese colony, has a crossed cog wheel and machete with a star, arranged à la the hammer and sickle... nominally it's a socialist democracy - see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Angola) for more info on their flag. I guess technically it's not a hammer and sickle, but it's pretty close.
Also check out China - their flag used to have a hammer and sickle, but they've now dropped it.

Ah, but weren't the then-new governments of Angola and China both under Soviet political inspiration & - to a limited degree - influence (although admittedly not control) when they adopted those flags? It's really the use of the symbol by pre-Soviet Communists, or its subsequent adoption by rival Communist factions [such as the Mensheviks] or countries, about which I was curious, and unless the time when China stopped using the emblem was quite a while after Mao's political break with Russia I don't think that that usage really counts in this respect...

']
A flag of Hitler wearing an apron with fake boobs that says "Kiss the Cook": fine

I laughed at this at first, but then I thought about it, and it has the potential to be even more offensive than a picture of Hitler with a stern face.

I made the connection between "cook" and "crematorium"...if that's quoted from an actual example, that might want to be looked at.

I don't particularly take offence to that myself, but it could be extremely offensive to somebody else.

Ah, but weren't the then-new governments of Angola and China both under Soviet political inspiration & - to a limited degree - influence (although admittedly not control) when they adopted those flags? It's really the use of the symbol by pre-Soviet Communists, or its subsequent adoption by rival Communist factions [such as the Mensheviks] or countries, about which I was curious, and unless the time when China stopped using the emblem was quite a while after Mao's political break with Russia I don't think that that usage really counts in this respect...

Admittedly yes, the Soviets spent considerable time and influence supporting their "fraternal socialist allies" globally, but I picked Angola because they actually have come up with another flag, but everybody prefers the old one - and unlike the Eastern bloc countries, which all dropped the hammer and sickle after the collapse of the USSR, Angola still has it. Regarding China, I'm not sure when they dropped the H&S, but I'm sure it came after the cooling in Sino-Soviet relations.

']if you've got a political ax to grind, do it here, where people can argue back.
Edit: changed "A Rough Guide" to "Some Examples".

I thought it was spelt "axe"?

I thought it was spelt "axe"?

Depends on where you live :p

http://www.aperfectworld.org/Other_Projects/Early_work/ax.gif

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/tetragrammatonia.jpg


Is mine okay? It's from my favorite movie, Equilibrium. Somebody actually pointed out that it looks like a Nazi flag to the director, and he didn't notice it until after the movie was released, and he regrets it. He apologized.

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/tetragrammatonia.jpg


Is mine okay? It's from my favorite movie, Equilibrium. Somebody actually pointed out that it looks like a Nazi flag to the director, and he didn't notice it until after the movie was released, and he regrets it. He apologized.The cross isn't the swastika. I think that's all that matters in this case, though the flag itself shows some remarkable to the Nazi flag (black cross, white circle, red flag and all that...). You're good to go as far as I've been able to read from the rules (and Equilibrium was an awesome move :D).

Sorry, not trying to gravedig just didn't see the need for a new thread.

Since it has been stated here that the swastika is banned because it is directly associated with the hatred of the Holocaust and the Nazis, can't the same be said of flags utilizing "KKK"?

As someone that grew up in the "South" and witnessed these people still doing their marches of hatred in present day I can say without a doubt that what comes to my mind when I see that on a flag is cross burning, church burning, lynchings and just simply hatred.

Any chance of including this?

OK, comment:

Nazi flags and insignia: specifically designed and brought about by an evil regime to represent themselves, and glorified as such, not a national flag of long standing. Weren't actually in use for a longtime.

Anyother nations flags: Have been around and in use for a significant amount of time, and simply represent a nation, with all the good and bad stuff it may have done. A few of these (communists among those most recently) were part of an ideological shift, though in many cases these have simply become the national flag and not a banner for zealot fuelled death.

The majority of people will have a strong emotive reaction to the first, a few maybe to some of the second, but the second will vary according the person. More interesting would be why anyone would wish to copy the Nazis in the first place.

I totally agree with the sentiments behind the banning of the swastika, and would not like the ban revoked, but the arguements are a bit "iffy", after all, the American and Isreali flags are preceived in the Middle East (and many other parts of the world) as the ultimate symbols of genocidal racism and the subjugation of the poor and muslims, amongst Black South Africans that symbol would be the joined up Dutch, British and Boer Republic flags in the centre of the old SA Flag. Would it not be easier to clearly define what can be used, eg trecoulours, animals and basic geometric symbols, psycodelic patterns etc than to single out one of the many racist/genocial regeims of the world and only ban their symbols?

A question. Is it permissable to use the original symbol of the Finnish Air Force (see http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/swedish_aviators/images/finswaz.gif)in a flag, even though it is swastika-shaped?

A question. Is it permissable to use the original symbol of the Finnish Air Force (see http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/swedish_aviators/images/finswaz.gif)in a flag, even though it is swastika-shaped?

That's a full-blown swastika -- no, you can't, regardless of the fifty million reasons why it doesn't mean NSDAP.

I totally agree with the sentiments behind the banning of the swastika, and would not like the ban revoked, but the arguements are a bit "iffy", after all, the American and Isreali flags are preceived in the Middle East (and many other parts of the world) as the ultimate symbols of genocidal racism and the subjugation of the poor and muslims, amongst Black South Africans that symbol would be the joined up Dutch, British and Boer Republic flags in the centre of the old SA Flag. Would it not be easier to clearly define what can be used, eg trecoulours, animals and basic geometric symbols, psycodelic patterns etc than to single out one of the many racist/genocial regeims of the world and only ban their symbols?As far as I recall, the arguement was that swastikas and NS symbols would offend a majority while the others would vary. For instance it would be mainly South Africans that get offended by an orange-white-blue tricolor with three flags on it while most everyone else will wonder where they've seen it before. The flag of the third Reich is recognizable to almost everyone.
I hope that cleared the "iffy". :)

Ok, for one, if you guys start with the ban of all "nazi" like flags, you would have to ban pretty much every other major flag.

You may ask why, well as LB has stated with Communism, every major flag has belong to a nation that has executed some form of Genocide one way or another. Heres a few examples.

American flag: Overthrown several legit governments, and was responsable for the deaths of countless Hawian, African American, and Native American people's.

Soviet Union flag: Gee, you all hate Nazism so much, its so small in comparison to Communism. Hitler barely managed to kill what? 6 Million in the halocaust, and 20 million Russians at the hands of the SS? Ok, yet Lenin and Stalin managed to off an excess of 40 million, who's bodies are still being found today.

All Flags Related to Communism(East Bloc countries), see Soviet Union flag.

British Empire: Gee, these guys have managed to kill off countless African's and Indian's in their suppression of peaceful movements against their rule. You don't rule most of the world whilst being a nice guy?

North Korea: This is pretty self-explanatory, and if you don't know why, you shouldn't be here in the first place.

China: Gee, Mau or however you spell his name, has killed thousands maybe millions off with his secret police raids.

Italy: Il Duce helped out Hitler in his ploys to off the Jews, and was very willing to do whatever.

Japan: Pearl Harbor....Batan Death March...just a few examples.

Ok, my point is clear. If Nationstates is supposed to allow people to run their nation how-ever they wish, then their flag should be whatever they want it to be. Hell, everyone runs into something offensive, everything sees offensive things in their own different way. What may seem cool looking to you, might make my terribly offended, you don't know what will offend someone.

You ban any form of Nazi flag, you have to ban all others stated above, the main reason Nazi flags are banned, is due to the Halocaust, gee, not to sound sadistic here, but in numbers, Stalin offed alot more than ole' Toothbush could dream of.


Do you have a degree in Straw Clutching?

I think it's rather silly, myself. Everything is going to mean something negative to someone, somewhere. To someone in Iraq right now, I bet the american flag is pretty low on the love-list. I personally find the christian cross offensive, for my own personal reasons.

Yes, the swastika is more well-known to the general majority, but remember, before the nazis used it for their own purposes, that symbol was a positive one. I may be the only person who doesn't think "hitler" when I see it. I think of the eastern culture and original meaning that symbol was meant to have.

There has yet to be similar crimes committed for a similar amount of time with a similar hatred for humanity that even comes close to how the Nazis did it.

The forgotten genocide of Bangladesh (http://gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html). 2-3 million killed in just over 6 months. Considering the time frame, it is comparable to the Nazis.

I got a question for the Mods.

I am an Indian of Hindu faith. The swastika is the second most holiest symbol for me after "Om".

Can I be allowed to have this on my flag ?

http://www.hinduhumanrights.org/images/swastika.jpg

It's kind of silly to ban real flags that have existed in history...I'd be more concerned with mottos.

I got a question for the Mods.

I am an Indian of Hindu faith. The swastika is the second most holiest symbol for me after "Om".

Can I be allowed to have this on my flag ?

http://www.hinduhumanrights.org/images/swastika.jpg

Please read the rest of the thread.

Please read the rest of the thread.

I did. It says that ultimately it is a judgement call of the Mods which would be based on the basically the intention to offend.

As I said, it is a holy symbol to me. I also abhor Nazis and everything they stood for.

So, is the above pic, a yes or no ?

It is just a question, I am not demanding that I should be allowed its usage. :)

While I do dislike communism, I don't think the H&S should be banned. But I also think that some symbold banned should be allowed because they are not largely known to associate with Nazism. In my past I have met about as many people who are offended by the H&S as the Triskatrilion [sp]. I'd actually say the H&S is considered offensive than most non-Swastika Nazi symbols.

Italy: Il Duce helped out Hitler in his ploys to off the Jews, and was very willing to do whatever.
I would like to point out that Benito Mussolini did not agree with Hitler's anti-Jew polocy, did not kill them and refused to deport them from Italian held lands until Hitler's puppet government in Northern Italy took control and Mussolini resisted those deportations[It's not largely mentioned, but Il Duce saved many more Jewish lives than Schindler]. The closest he ever came to Jewish persecution was a set of recial laws that were not strongly enforced.

I'm not supporting the guy, he commited a lot of evil acts, but I've read a lot about the man and it bugs me when people claim he did things he didn't or claim he didn't do things that he did.

~~~

I have a question, would the Zeonic flag for Mobile Suit Gundam be allowed? It is shaped like a Nazi flag with a Zeonic symbol in place of the Swastika? How about the Ado Hinkle's flag from "The Great Dictator"? It's clearly based on the Nazi flag, but it is ment for satire.

I don't have examples on me, but if you need to see them I can find a couple. Or if I have to I can make them.

Would having Cats'(Guy from Zero Wing) face on a flag with the slogan 'All your base are belong to us' be acceptable? This might be a stupid question, but I always ask to make sure.

Would having Cats'(Guy from Zero Wing) face on a flag with the slogan 'All your base are belong to us' be acceptable? This might be a stupid question, but I always ask to make sure.
Read the thread.

Would having Cats'(Guy from Zero Wing) face on a flag with the slogan 'All your base are belong to us' be acceptable? This might be a stupid question, but I always ask to make sure.

Seems fine to me.

The forums permit relatively free speech on a range of issues, so, as the FAQ says, if you've got a political ax to grind, do it here, where people can argue back. Please don't put it in your flag when you know it will piss people off.

Righto.

So, could someone explain to me why a grinning, smirking, chuckling, smiling, or just plain goofy Hitler is allowed, when a serious, stern Adolf is not? Is not the intent of both to offend, being against your rules?

How is any photo of Hitler allowed when not in the context of an apparent highly mocking joke. I have only one example of a joke Adolf picture, it is a parody advertisment I have of a stern Hitler with a milk mustache.

Although, the text at the bottom of this parody "got milk?" advert will still likely be considered an offensive enough joke to get it banned. For your consideration:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a212/kameraden/hitlermilk.jpg


Oh, and as we approach the half month mark since DRP was deleted, I've just realized that I was never granted an explanation for the deletion. I'm happy to wait as long as it takes for a moderator decision on the matter, but if you wouldn't mind the time, I'd appreciate knowing why the action was taken.

A scene from a cartoon series, which features an animated yellow, stern hitler and a swastika. Did a mod think it was intended to offend? Was it just simple swastiphobia, that it would encourage other skinhead shlocks to do the same?

Just curious, you know.

what about the buddhism sign that looks like the swastika but the other way round (clockwise or anti clockwise i mean) as it is a symbol of peace and was around way before hitler turned it round and manipulated it from peace to war (if you understand me)

what about the buddhism sign that looks like the swastika but the other way round (clockwise or anti clockwise i mean) as it is a symbol of peace and was around way before hitler turned it round and manipulated it from peace to war (if you understand me)It's a common misconception that the Buddhist Swastika and the Nazi one face different directions.

That SS lightning slash thing: no

what if its the AC/DC lightning thing?

and just wondering my flag is a nazi flag with the red background and the white circle, but with the swastika removed and snuggles the fabric softner bear in the middle, is there a problem with that?

That SS lightning slash thing: no

what if its the AC/DC lightning thing?

and just wondering my flag is a nazi flag with the red background and the white circle, but with the swastika removed and snuggles the fabric softner bear in the middle, is there a problem with that?

Yes, fluffy teddybears should be banned too. :p
There is nothing in the rules about the double s sign.

We examine the nations. If the flags, mottoes, and fields are offensive, they are removed. This would go for deathsheads, SS lightning bolts, upraised middle fingers, etc.

Uhhmerica, Der Reichsprotektor was deleted for -- surprise! a swastika flag -- yes, in the Simpsons frame. Continually replacing forbidden images with different forbidden images is, pardon me for saying so, verboten.

We examine the nations. If the flags, mottoes, and fields are offensive, they are removed. This would go for deathsheads, SS lightning bolts, upraised middle fingers, etc.

Uhhmerica, Der Reichsprotektor was deleted for -- surprise! a swastika flag -- yes, in the Simpsons frame. Continually replacing forbidden images with different forbidden images is, pardon me for saying so, verboten.

To clarify slightly:

With the history of behavior and problems with Der Reichsprotektor, it was judged that the flag was being used specifically to use a symbol in a malicious way while trying to avoid getting caught. We do not permit malicious activity in the game. That is why they were deleted.

Would a flag like this be okay? I realize it might be kind of a gray area (and although it may seem to some moderators that I've been actively trying to push the limits lately, let me assure you that I'm not), so I wanted to make sure.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v346/brekenhov/swastammer.jpg

My initial (non-modly) oppinion is no...

come to think of it... I wonder if your current flag is okay...

Would a flag like this be okay? I realize it might be kind of a gray area (and although it may seem to some moderators that I've been actively trying to push the limits lately, let me assure you that I'm not), so I wanted to make sure.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v346/brekenhov/swastammer.jpg


The flag itself is questionable. It would depend on the context, national behavior, fields, etc. Remember, we always rule on the whole of a nation, not just the specific fields or flags.