NationStates Jolt Archive

I posted this on another thread but find it belongs here:


It would appear that no-one was really happy with this outcome. The request to not invade was not honoured (I did not honour it because I felt that TheDoc lost his delegacy at least in part to the bug-induced loss of many of his endorsements in the first place,<for lack of a better term; an act of "God."> which was not acted upon with moderation.) The request to not eject and ban has also not been honoured and Infernoice immediately became what everyone expected him to become, another despot. Okay, I and many other regions paid for our actions with ejection and banning. Gotta come back with a different and better plan.

So how is it that he gets "the popular vote?" Simple; He got the delegacy while not even being on-line because of thoughtless endorsement trading. Most of his votes were from other nations who were not on-line at the time of the battle. That will give people something to think about now I would expect. There are some 4000-5000 nations in that region. (1000-2500 UN nations?) If one out of 10 put some thought into their endorsements this whole situation would correct itself.

People should really refrain from invoking moderation if at all possible because the moderators are really oversubscribed in settling disputes. We can make this mess better by UNINVOLVING the moderators from it and we will all duke it out like the "real world" has to do. As for "Acts of God" or other freaky occurrences, they happen in the real world too and who can complain that some horrible despot in ancient history choked to death on a fishbone or was otherwise taken off the scene by some accident, and many, many lives were spared by that seemingly random event. Who would want to "reset the clock" on something like that in the interest of life playing fair? Real life is not fair and strange things happen here too. Let's all deal with our bad luck and take our breaks when we can get them.

In other countries a system of arbiters exists to keep the court system from getting overloaded with disputes. It is a common practice for judges to punish both plaintiff and defendant alike with a settlement beneficial to neither party, for failing to settle their dispute in arbitration and so burdening the court system.

Think something like that could be happening here?

Let's get back to the game, figure out what went wrong, fix it and kick some butt in The Pacific!

(Maybe a campaign to inform people of the evils of endorsement swapping?)

Irrulan

There are times when slight nudges are better than strong blows, and the great majority of players are considerate enough to go along with them enough to make it worthwhile.
Yes, that is a fact. The majority of players are playing this game for fun, not for winning. Some do tough. And those that do play to 'win', do so in whatever way they can. Even by ignoring soft nudges......
It is incredibly stupid to think that in this case any of the players who are only in this game for 'power play', and not for the game itself or the politics around it, would ever listen to a soft nudge.
Enteties that can throw weight around to gain a position they want (or think they need), will nearly allways do so when given the chance. So either make rock-sollid 'rules' to limit possibilities, or give every 'competetor' the same chance. Either way is fair. In this case fairness is hard to find, just because the majority followed the nudge, and the 'power play people' only took advantage of that. Like in the real world.

I think I have some right to say the things above. I am a local politician in Rotterdam, the Netherlands, with many years of experience. So I know how to handle different parties with the same (or conflicting) interests that have different power end weight ratios. The art is to keep it fair and even for all parties concerned, while still reaching a solution. I find that in NS this is mostly not the case. Overall in NS, the player with the most power (or 'weight') gets what he/she wants. Period. And that sucks bigtime!!!

At this moment I have placed all my nations in the region Ion.
This region was made for the sole purpose to be the home of my secondary nations. Not as a base for illigal actions, but just a place where I could keep my nations together. At least those nations that I used less often. From now on it will be the dying grounds of ALL my nations. I quit with Nation States. It started with fun, but quickly I found out that the rules are flexible for some, and rigid for most.
As in real life: some animals are more equal then others. It is an understatement to say that I'm disapointed in this game, that in essence is fair, but in reality is not. And there is enough of that in real life.

Goodby all, peace.

i'll miss you ara...
please think about this..
and i hope i can say : tot ziens..

If you change your mind, you're welcome to stay in The Realm of Ambrosia; we don't have any political banning nonsense here.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder of The Realm of Ambrosia

Cogitation... I think my puppet may move to Ambrosia once this fiasco is resolved and my efforts to return democracy to the Pacific are completed...

You've shown a level head around the forums and I appreciate that in anyone I see it in.

we didn't havethem either cog, tilfrancos became delegate...
and i see you became a mod..
lucky you, lucky us, at least 1 mod that likes us ;)
ummm, you like us, don't you?

I moved to the pacific last night because i'm a region hopper :) and that guy infernoice banished me to the rejected realms! I was no threat to him, I had only 2 endorsements!

well, join the club phil! ;)

down with tyranny!

-post deleted at thedoc's request-

Phil.... Hack didn't want me creating a new thread to discuss this separate issue of rule violations...

so I ask you to edit it out here... otherwise they may consider it spamming... If it gets no attention from the mods, I'll bring it up later and address it when more are around... but for now I would appreciate it if you would remove it....

don't need to give them any reason to side against us.

we didn't havethem either cog, tilfrancos became delegate...
and i see you became a mod..
lucky you, lucky us, at least 1 mod that likes us ;)
ummm, you like us, don't you?

I like you, I sypathize with you...

...but as a Moderator, I must remain neutral in enforcing the rules. So, you're not really all that lucky.

Now, my powers as a Forum Moderator are limited to the Forum, so I can't sort out this mess myself.

Phil.... Hack didn't want me creating a new thread to discuss this separate issue of rule violations...

so I ask you to edit it out here... otherwise they may consider it spamming... If it gets no attention from the mods, I'll bring it up later and address it when more are around... but for now I would appreciate it if you would remove it....

don't need to give them any reason to side against us.

Wise approach. Avoiding spamming does avoid damaging the credibility of your case.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Forum Moderator

we didn't havethem either cog, tilfrancos became delegate...
and i see you became a mod..
lucky you, lucky us, at least 1 mod that likes us ;)
ummm, you like us, don't you?

I like you, I sypathize with you...

...but as a Moderator, I must remain neutral in enforcing the rules. So, you're not really all that lucky.



well, at least i feel a little better, and i know you mods have to be neutral and all, but still, it feels good when people like ya ;)

Please see this post:

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1493658#1493658

what about it neutered?

A fair is a big place with cows, pony rides, and funnel cakes. It has nothing to do with this game.




In response to Ackbar, I am not making a ruling. Simply requesting that the players of this game respect my wishes and allow Francos to return to a pre-bug status.




I take it this would be acceptable then. That said, looks like I will liekly stay out of this for the most part. I don't have anything to do with it, I just see one of the very few invaders in this game (besides a few I know of course) being dealt a sore hand, of noone's fault apparantly, and I know several groups are talking about going against the mod request, and going into the region.

Well anyone, want to help the guy at least have the two days, tho I don't think he has much of a chance beyond that. Guess I will stay our of it unless he asks for help, then weill play it by ear.

Thanks Neut.

There are several times when other mods and myself will make a request. We, though it could have been a bit clearer here. We do not always make rulings. There are times when slight nudges are better than strong blows, and the great majority of players are considerate enough to go along with them enough to make it worthwhile.

SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling

In this case you made a "request" to the many nations that wanted to oust Francos. A significant number actually listened thus guaranteeing InfernoIce's ascension to delegate. Had InfernoIce honoured your second "request" not to ban for 48 hours there would have been no problem. He didn't.

Do you see the problem here? You mods have done nothing but teach dozens of nations that ignoring your "requests" is the only way to win at the game.

Amazing all of the posts in here ignoring that many nations did not acknowledge the 48 hour request. Once they ignored this request, would you objectively argue he should do nothing in response?

ugly situation, wish the region were just locked down with password protection, what can you do though?

Likely this is a request not a mod order because aside from locking the region down, this would be almost too much for the mods to effectively police.

I know that Neut said we're not supposed to talk until the mods had made their decision, but I posted this elsewhere, and I feel it needs to be said, gag order or no.

The thing is, I don't see how the mods can possibly come down on 70+ nations when the "suggestion" (It was never a ruling, and Neut said as much) was only issued on the NationStates forum--it wasn't posted in the regional message board for the Pacific, and it certainly wasn't circulated to the nations who had been asked to move loooong before the glitch. The glitch merely gave a window of opportunity for a plan that had been in the works for a long time, outside of the region among the allies of the nations that were booted by FS. I didn't find out about Neut's 48 hour thing until after I'd already moved, and noticed a thread in the top 5 topics. How many of the "invading" nations still don't know about what Neut said now? Not all of the nations who play the game come to these threads.

I needed to say this to clear my conscience. Punish me how you will.

That is a good point, but you may as well wait to see what the mods have to say. You may not need to argue anymore.

Now all you have to hope is that the mods don't pull one of their "Please don't discuss this for 48 hours so we can make a ruling. Nobody was discusssing this so we thought nobody cared about it and we dropped it" rulings.

the mods have said. er not said .. er said... um.. yeah.

anyways look in the thread called francos spain. i'm sure most of you have but i had trouble finding it.

No point in looking there now. It's been locked and will disappear into the oblivion of the lower pages. :)

Neutered Sputniks wrote in another thread:
We asked a number of times for a moratorium on discussions here"

Why? What is the reason for such a moratorium? I found this:

InfernoIce was not the only player to ignore my request. Many other nations moved into the region. Therefore, the Mods will discuss this tonight, and have a solution posted. This solution will be the final word on this particular matter. Any violations will be dealt with.

In interest of this, I ask that this issue not be discussed further until the Mods have made the ruling, at which time this issue will be reopened for discussion.
What is the harm in such discussion, premature though it may be?
(edited)

well, i think he asked us to shut up about it til they can decide what's gonna happen... ;)

Why does discussion here effect the Mods ability to think?

I don't understand why people venting their frustration interferes with the Mods. I mean, I can have an opinion and debate a subject while others voice their opinion – even if it a contrary opinion. I really don’t understand how discussion on this forum can be griefing… but then I’m not a Mod.

As far as I can see, the Mods have disregarded, disagreed with, or outright nixed just about every argument made against Francos Spain, on the grounds that what he’s doing is legal. Why would continued discussion suddenly cause any problems?

Just curious... :shock:

Why does discussion here effect the Mods ability to think?

I don't understand why people venting their frustration interferes with the Mods. I mean, I can have an opinion and debate a subject while others voice their opinion – even if it a contrary opinion. I really don’t understand how discussion on this forum can be griefing… but then I’m not a Mod.

As far as I can see, the Mods have disregarded, disagreed with, or outright nixed just about every argument made against Francos Spain, on the grounds that what he’s doing is legal. Why would continued discussion suddenly cause any problems?

Just curious... :shock: