NationStates Jolt Archive

Quinntonian Dra-Pol said it best:
The eminent nation of Dra-pol has had a brain storm and you are invited!!!!

Dra-pol, everyone’s favourite psychotic, was sick and tired of trying to explain the NS number simulator. How can 3 billion people live on the Korean Peninsula? How can its chief enemy, Quinntonian Dra-pol be almost 3 billion and represent only two cities on that same Korean Peninsula? What fun is it playing an army that can just say, “I have sent 25 million heavily armed troops your way,” and have that answered with, “My defences incorporate 80 million evil shock troops, and I am calling up my 500 million reservists.”

C’mon, any of us who have been in NS very long have had a conversation jut like this if we are involved in ANY war threads, and these could be between reasonable people, just playing a nation that can realistically front amazing numbers. It gets worse with noobs.

And there is worse things than that. “I am going to attack you. Where, geographically is your nation?”
“I am a series of islands located in the Pacific Ocean, somewhere between North America and Japan.”
“huh?”

There is also the famous fifty nation pile-up, whenever you post as a nation that is unpopular in some way, you can have fifty nations, all with 3 billion pops, post saying they share a border with you.

So, Dra-pol decided to do something about it, he said that he was going to declare that he was in the geographic location of N. Korea, and take on its geography and RL population, and that he was absolutely NOT RECOGNISE anyone who used anything but RL technology. That is, not tech that is not CURRENTLY in use.

I loved the idea and immediately followed suit. This also attracted a few more people, and we started claiming land in South-East Asia, as well as North America and Russia. We claimed the RL populations of these territories and now RP with those statistics.
This experiment is a major success! The RPs that have cropped up are amazing, since we only have to RP with other Modern World nations, there is less stupidity, and we vote on all members that are recognised in our RPing group so, we keep noobs to a minimum. Also, ones that get through and cause any major trouble, usually have major alliances to contend with, as Bonstock once found out.

There are several awesome Rpers already involved and we have decided to open this up to others who might be interested. If you are, post your nation's name, territory claimed, and be prepared to negotiate for it, and take suggestions.
IMPORTANT: IN MODERN WORLD RPS, ONLY MODERN WORLD RECOGNISED NATIONS WILL BE ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE!(Minor edits for clarity.)

He wrote this in 2004, and AMW has been chugging along since then. Recently, we've lost a number of people to Real Life (Royce got married, Nova Gaul had kids, Fleur de Lis left for personality differences, etc.), and we've decided to press the cosmic 'reset button'. Accordingly, we've done away with our history, and now we're all going to post our claims once again.

Important!
We ask that all new members 'audition' by posting a sample of previous roleplay activity (or a link to same), after which the current AMW eminances grise (QDP, LRR, Spyr, BG, or some combination thereof) will decide whether or not the roleplay suggests that the prospective member is a good fit for the community. Thank you.

By popular demand, a list of claimed nations:
Updated List of Claims, with Factbook Links:

LRR/Crooked Beat-Lower Ceylon
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/...p?showtopic=101 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=101)

Quinntonian Dra-pol- USA, Canada
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/...p?showtopic=103 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=103)


Spyr- Northerm Portion of China and South-Pacific Region of Russia
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/...topic=12&st=105 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=12&st=105)


Beth Gellert-Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary (also Upper Ceylon)

Tamil Eelam (Upper Ceylon): http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/...p?showtopic=102 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=102)

Beddgelan Democratic Republic (Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary):
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/...p?showtopic=105 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=105)

Gurguvungunit- UK, Ireland, Egypt, Sudan, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/...php?showtopic=4 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=4)

Nova Gaul- Mexico, Dominican Republic, Haiti
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/...p?showtopic=109 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=109)

Vecron-France, Spain, Italy and Greece
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/...hp?showtopic=99 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=99)

Cassanos-Germany, Poland
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/...p?showtopic=107 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=107)

Kievskaya Rus-Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/...p?showtopic=100 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=100)

Cotland-Norway, Denmark, Greenland, Sweden, Finland, and Iceland
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/...p?showtopic=110 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=110)

Walmington on the Sea- Isle of Wight
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=567669

Talost
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/...hp?showtopic=94 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=94)

AMW China-Northern China [Fujian, Guangzhou, Guangxi, Hainan, and other associated islands (Macau, Hong Kong)]
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/...hp?showtopic=92 (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=92)

Spizania- India

Dra-pol- N. Korea



Not yet active:


United Taifas -Portugal
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=574332

Trostia-Brazil

AMW Ethiopia-Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Somalia


The bottom three are still in development.

I notice a severe lack of unrealism(Is that a word?), imagination, and fancy in this "Organization" or whatever it is. Therefore, I show no interest. *Leaves*

I notice a severe lack of unrealism(Is that a word?), imagination, and fancy in this "Organization" or whatever it is. Therefore, I show no interest. *Leaves*

I note a severe presence of retardation in this post. *Places on ignore list*

And now, my claims:

The British Isles (Great Britain, Ireland, Orkney Isles, Inner and Outer Hebrides, Isle of Wight, Isle of Man) the British Channel Islands, Egypt, Sudan, Australia, New Zealand, dependent territories of Australia and New Zealand, Singapore.

For those of you AMWers who are surprised by the extent of these claims, note that Egypt and Sudan were by the suggestion of Quinntonia, who wanted one of the two of us to have an African holding. To me, Egypt/Sudan made the most sense in terms of history, but if any of you have concerns about that I'm perfectly willing to discuss it further.

Spam much, CM?

Quite the empire, Gurg, but I'm not opposed to it. At least, not OOC... Of course you'll be hearing from the Indian Red Army and/or Tamil Tigers in Singapore :)

Some of the details of my claim are still up in the air. Much depends on exactly what LRR's claim ends up being, but presumably the Indian Soviet Commonwealth of Beth Gellert/Beddgelert will end up covering the bulk of the Indian sub-continent.

Sri Lanka, the Laccadives, and south India are pretty certain, but I'm also hoping this time to incorporate Bangladesh and all of India that lies outside LRR's ultimate claim, assuming he goes with his Portuguese-speaking state in the west. The ANI chain would also be outside the Commonwealth, and Pakistan would be likewise, though I'll probably incorporate border disputes IC with whoever ends up on the other side of that frontier. For the record, I'm not entirely opposed to another Goa-type situation this time around if any class enemies want to cling on to an enclave, though of course Royce isn't here to do it anymore.

I'm still a little concerned about those nations RPing with IC names different from their accounts, and I think we should add a note to clarify that this isn't just another Earth RP like so many others, at least not in our snooty opinion :) People don't have to claim RL countries (just the territory that they inhabit), rather we want people to commit to AMW with a Nationstate that means something to them. Geography and population sizes are the only things fixed to the real world (technology too, but not so much to specific countries- a poor nation could inhabit Luxembourg, and a nation covering half of Madagascar could be a world-leading microchip producer, potentially).

Obviously when I say, "clarify" I don't mean ramble like I just did :)

can i have Italy, Greece,Poland, Czech Republic, slovakia, austria?

if any of those nations are compromised, i would like the states of California, nevada, arizona,washington and oregon, and if im not allowed to have those claims, i will accept

Brazil, Panam, Venezula, Cuba, Colombia and Peru.

^^ just tell me what i can get out of those.

Well you probably know by now that I am interested, and here are my claims. I have some good reasoning behind them.

I wish to claim as the Aegean Federation the territories of Turkey, Greece, and Cyrprus.

My reasoning is that since they are culturally similiar, and after a series of Charismatic and successful leaders they became one nation.

Yea it's not fleshed out yet, but I have more.

So Gurg, is Canada still part of the british empire? ;)

Welcome Granate, looking forward to your factbook.

As for myself, I think I will continue what I had mentioned earlier and play a military dictatorship in southern china. I might erase all past history concerning united china and leave the PRC up north alone.

Updated List of Claims, with Factbook Links:

LRR/Crooked Beat-Lower Ceylon
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=101

Quinntonian Dra-pol- USA, Canada
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=103

Spyr- Northerm Portion of China and South-Pacific Region of Russia
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=12&st=105

Beth Gellert-Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary (also Upper Ceylon)

Tamil Eelam (Upper Ceylon): http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=102

Beddgelan Democratic Republic (Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary):
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=105

Gurguvungunit- UK, Ireland, Egypt, Sudan, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=4

Nova Gaul- Mexico, Dominican Republic, Haiti
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=109

Vecron-France, Spain, Italy and Greece
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=99

Cassanos-Germany, Poland
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=107

Kievskaya Rus-Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=100

Cotland-Norway, Denmark (with Greenland?), Sweden, Finland, and Iceland
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=110

Walmington on the Sea- Isle of Wight
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=567669

Spizania- India

Dra-pol- N. Korea



Not yet active:


Ralish-Portugal

Trostia-Brazil

AMW Ethiopia-Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Somalia


The bottom three are still in development.

I wonder, Q, if you shouldn't consider just averaging the real per-capita GDPs of those nations and attributing the balance as you see fit, if you follow my meaning. Or something like that, anyway. I mean, the Philippines already has a growth rate above 7%, how much faster could it have developed? I'd have thought increasing equality to reduce poverty would be the Christian priority! Maybe my suggestion is a little over complicated, I just wonder if you really need to be that powerful. If the Soviets stick to the plan described on our forums, their GDP will be under US$4trillion, Armand's gone, Elias is gone, the Holy League is gone, and China is being split. I suppose it doesn't really matter. Some sources have the Philippines' GDP higher than the CIA factbook suggests, anyway.

On to me! I'm looking to change, this time around, having lost momentum in recent months thanks to the departure of Armand and on-off availability of the Tsar and the Chinese.

Abandoning Depkazia's Mid Asian Caliphate, I am proposing a West African empire stuck in time. The Ralish appeared in a few RPs way back before Depkazia was created and thrust into AMW, but I think that this time I might just add a little Depkazi crazyness into the mix. Perhaps we will go back to consulting hippo teeth on matters of state... although perhaps I ought to pick a more remote animal, given that it might almost make sense for us to have a hippo.

Anyway to rehash what I've been saying, The Eternal Alshorian Empire of The Ralish would be a sprawling giant of a nation, sparsely peopled and technologically stunted. The dominant people -The Ralish- would be an original ethnic group not existant in reality, not quite European, not quite Semitic, but clearly not black. I'd probably create a religion for them, too, possibly Abrahamic or perhaps older but sharing some mythological roots with some of the early Abrahamic faiths. Arabs, black Africans, and others would also be present, along with their religions.

My initial claim covers Mauritania, Mali, and Niger, and I think I'll claim the Cape Verde Islands, too. As I said earlier, I'm quite interested in claiming more of the surrounding nations, but only if someone wants to take them off me, presumably through conflict. I'm looking to play the ridiculously ancient civilisation with a crumbling sickman empire and a desperate struggle to survive, rather than one to expand. I'd happily add Guinea or another suitable nation if Talost wants to play a Communist or other expansion out of Sierra Leone with the expectation of losing it.

With Cape Verde, Mali, Mauritania, and Niger, using the CIA Factbook gives 29,388,646 people in 3,541,733 sq km. It also gives a GDP of $29.922bln in PPP terms, and that's probably not a million miles from what I'd RP. I might bump it up from around $1,000 per capita to maybe $1,500, but then I might not bother, because who is really going to notice that?

Seeing Gurg's revised claim, I'm actually very, very tempted to add Chad (1.284 million sq km, 10,111,337 people, $15.9 billion PPP GDP) so that we can have direct relations and probably tribulations. That'd give me about 39.5 million people in 4.82 million square kilometres and something like a $45bln PPP GDP since I'm happy to use the real nations as a guide, even if my economy will be set up differently. Those figures exclude Guinea, which I'll only add if Talost or someone wants to do some expanding around there.

Hm, Chad. What do you think? Yeah, go on, I'll add Chad. Get my sprawl on.

Here is my claim to the reboot of AMW, designed as the revived Roman Empire:



1.

Italy (Roma)-- 58,145,321 (July 2008 est.) and all assets/dependencies and claims thereof

Greece (Byzantium)-- 10,722,816 (July 2008 est.) and all assets/dependencies and claims thereof

France (Gaul)-- 64,057,790 (July 2008 est.) and all assets/dependencies and claims thereof

Spain (Iberia)-- 40,491,051 (July 2008 est.) and all assets/dependencies and claims thereof



2.

I am a member of the old AMW and would like to reassert my original claim on Italy and expand it since most of the Holy Leagues major powers have become inactive or have decided to drop their claim on their former territories. The territories I have claimed reflect a renewal of the Roman Empire, with Rome serving as the capital of the empire. This claim is to give AMW a right wing government and offer a superpower to counter the Soviets in India and the USQ. I am planning to continue the government in my old claim as a Catholic Roman Empire ruled by an absolute monarchy with a Caesar as the head of state with the Church and an appointed senate advising the Caesar in matters of the state. With a great majority of the citizens in the Empire are Catholic the Catholic Church has a significant amount of influence in the government. There would be a moderate independence movement in Greece that Rome must put down and place a fair share of troops, and a secret police, a la the Gestapo, to keep it down since a majority of the population is Orthodox and not Catholic. Italy, Spain and France would be most committed to the Empire as an overwhelming majority of the population share the Catholic faith. Of these three, France will have the largest independence movement, though it is an underground and fledgling movement. I would take the exact GDP of Italy, France and Spain, with a slight decrease in Greece’s GDP as results of the harsh measures on the population to quell the independence movement.



Note: I will change my Jolt ID once the claim is approved.

Hail Caesar!

North Calaveras: Any of those groups (except the US states, which aren't up for grabs) is a lot of territory/population/resources. I know that neither Quinn nor I are really the best ones to talk to you about that without calling the kettle black, but for the most part AMW isn't about having a giant empire. For example, I started off as Australia plus a bit, and only later 'graduated' to Britain. Perhaps if you were to pick one or two of the following, explain the general idea behind it like Quinn said, and give us a brief rundown of what you wanted to do with it?

The open ones are:
Czech Republic
Austria
Slovakia
Brazil*
Colombia
Panama
Peru

I starred Brazil because, quite honestly, since it's such a big and potentially rich nation in terms of resources and population, that might be a good one just to play on its own. Any of the others, I think, could be fine being glommed together into a single nation. Hmm... here's an idea; you could go for a sort of remnant of the Austro-Hungarian Empire!

Now, to go back and flesh out my claim:
United Kingdom-60,587,300 people
Australia-21,310,000 people
New Zealand-4,268,000 people
Ireland-6,000,000 people (approximately)
Egypt-80,335,036 people
Sudan-39,379,358 people
Total=211,879,694 people

GDP is more difficult, since Sudan is envisioned as quite a bit different in this reality than in RL. In reality, of course, the British generally abused the Sudanese throughout their time there, and though not as bad as some European powers, they didn't do much to improve the country. In this reality, history ran much the same course until around 1955, after which time Anthony Eden (who had just succeeded Winston Churchill as PM) authorized a series of government funded improvements to the Sudan and Southern Egypt, generally raising the standard of living there by a fair bit. Not only is there no janjaweed militia, but education efforts and an effective administration have made the place, if not one of the nicest in the world, certainly better than most of Africa.

Ireland, by contrast, is not nearly so nice a place as it is in reality. Since there was never an Irish Free State or an effective revolutionary movement, most of the brutality by the Black and Tans in the early 20th Century didn't happen. On the other hand, because it is a satellite state of the Empire, it hasn't received as much attention in terms of development as the real Ireland has. Northern Ireland and Dublin are essentially unchanged from reality, much of the rest is a fair bit more rural.

Great Britain (England, Wales, Cornwall, Scotland, Northumberland) is moderately better off than it is in reality. There is still poverty and unemployment, but there is less. More goods come in and out of Britain, and there are more businesses based there.

Egypt, Australia and New Zealand are essentially the same. Egypt, perhaps, has seen a bit of improvement. This has all been a complicated way of saying that I have no clue what my GDP ought to be.

EDIT: Aw, y'all posted while I was posting. Bah. Ralish, you should take Chad, we can have two slightly overstretched empires snarling at each other. It'll be fun.

Vecron: I like the idea that you have going, but I'm curious as to what you're planning in terms of economy/military production. The Holy League was highly militarized, will you be the same? Additionally, one thing that never satisfied me about NG was that he claimed to have the largest military on earth (well, not really) and then claimed to have an amazing economy, all within the bounds of France. I guess what I'm saying is that in my mind, you can entirely get away with this claim, but if you want to militarize heavily you might have to re-evaluate your economy.

Vecron, I hope you don't mind, but I did claim Greece in an Earlier post.... and what a coincedence I was going to make my nation a Right-Wing State as well.

Maybe we could partition Greece between us, I dunno how, or even if it would be possible seeing as how I am going to play a Secular Islamic-dominated Right-Wing State.

Edit: In case you don't wish to share Greece I have prepared a secondary Claim with which I hope won't be challenged quite so quickly D:

1:
Germany: 82,210,000
Poland: 38,500,696
Denmark: 5,475,791
Netherlands: 16,408,557
Total: 142,595,044 People

2:
I am new AMW, but I am an Experiance RPer who is currently involved in E20 and it's offshoots.

I am claimed this as a sort of Modern German Empire, with some minor changes, most of which are the Inclusion of Denmark and the Netherlands. Roughly 75% of the Country is Germanic, while the rest is considered by some as Inferior people, but there is a movement in the fledgling Reichstag to increase their rights, but the country is still very Authoritarian. The economy is slowly switching from a National-Socialist Style to one more akin to the Socialist Governments of the Scandinavians. GDP would be about 2/3rds of what it is today, mainly to show what the corruption of National Socialism has done to the country. Germany remains the most industrialized part of the Country, with the Ruhr churning out massive amounts of goods. Poland is mostly Agricultural, it's farmland feeds the rest of the Empire, but it has some Industry especially in the larger cities. The Netherlands and Denmark are more liberal, being mostly centered on trade and trade oriented industry then the rest of the country. Copenhagen, Rotterdam, Hamburg, and Amsterdam remain as some of the World's Busiest Ports.

I am very intrigued by this, my last big RP, suffered from many of the issues mentioned in the opening quote.

I would like to claim Canada, Iceland, and Greenland.

They are somewhat closely located, and share some similarities in culture. It would be a right leaning Capitalist Democracy, constantly vigilant of it's southern neighbor. The economy would center around Canada's many natural resources, focusing on the fishing, logging, mining, and petroleum industries, with heavy investment in tar sand. We would avoid angering those we trade with. That is as far as I have it now, if anyone has any questions, I would be glad to answer them.

Sorry Gran, hate to burst your bubble, but Poland is claimed by an incumbent member and is, sadly, not up for grabs.

St. Fabian: That's fine with me, but if you're not adverse I'd like to RP a sort of commonwealth with you, owing to the fact that Canada was once a part of the British Empire. I'm beginning to see that I'll need at least a basic idea of what British Imperial history looks like!

I would not be against the Queen/King of England being the ceremonial Head of State, like RL Canada. So are we talking about something like the Commonwealth of Nations in RL?

Well then, could I perhaps replace Poland with Belgium and Luxembourge?

On second thought, more like third thought, I would like to rework my initial claim.

1.

Turkey: 70,586,256 people
Cyrprus: 788,457 people
Crimea: 1,973,185 people
Total: 73,347,898 people

Also Claimed, but not Administrated are the Aegean Isles, all of them.

2.

This claim is based off the Catholic Empire claim by Vecron

Seeing the Catholics in power nearby the Turks decide to go and conquer the Crimean Peninsula from the Kievan Rus. For more then 500 years, the Turks have doggedly held on the Peninsula, which has over time become more and more Turk and Tartar, then Ukrainian or Russian. Eventually the Peninsula was recognized as a holding of Turkey much the same way Cyprus was.

The Country is fiercely Nationalistic, they see Turks, and to a lesser Extent the Tartars living on the Crimean, as a superior race. They wish to see their Greek brothers, who they have a fondness for, for they are culturally similiar, freed from the Catholic bonds they have been shackled in.

Their Government is a Fascist Right-wing Government that wishes to start a new world order, but feels that they are not yet strong enough, nor have the right 'Allies' to undertake this. As such they attempt to maintain marginally good relations with those whose Governments are similiar to theres.

GDP is around the same as it is now, possibly lower.

1.

Sierra Leone:
5,900,000 people
$4.92 billion GDP

Liberia:
3,386,000 people
$1.6 billion GDP

Total:
9,286,000 people
$6.52 billion GDP

I don’t think I’ll mess with any of those stats.

2.

Hi all, Talost from the forums, as you might have guessed. This account doesn’t have very many posts, but I just revived it after years of death. I have about 2,500 posts over the last 3 years spread over my other accounts, so I figure my credibility should stand.

I want to take Liberia and Sierra Leone, merge them together and form a socialist state called the United Socialist African Republics. I figure that since the SL civil war started in large part due to the fallout of the Liberian one, it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to lump them together. Even combined, though, they are no match for what will apparently be my neighbor, The Ralish. Most likely I’ll try and appease him as much as possible while clinging to the Soviets for support.

I still intend the country to be dirt poor and unruly, but gradually I hope to shape it into something more respectable. Maybe along the lines of a West African trade hub? That’s a long way down the road, though.

I'd like to join, and I've expressed interest in this RP for a long while.

Some things I'd like to know, though...
1. Is this off-site? I'm not too active on the II forums at the moment, mostly because I'm involved in some time-consuming off-site Rps, and there isn't a whole lot going on on the II forums that involves or interests me at the moment. Not to say I wouldn't join here if this was an II Earth, but I know it was off-site at one point and, frankly, would prefer it.

2. What degree of Alternate History is this? Naturally, with a new Holy, German, and Greek Empires, some degree is involved, but is there a cut-off point of any kind? Did World War 2 happen? Were the results the same? I was following the discussion of the AMW forums a while ago, and did everything end up getting scrapped, or is all the stuff that happened in the AMW for the last 5 years viable?

3. How much emphasis is there on realism, outside of militarily and statistically? Would the person who claimed, say, the United States, have to act in accordance with how the United States would act if faced with a given situation, or is it somewhat more liberal in that aspect?

In any event, my knee-jerk claims are all already taken; namely Italy and Greece. Well, except Switzerland, which might be an interesting claim, being at the epicentre of Europe. I do suppose that bordering Italy, Germany, France, and Austria might be a bit of a dangerous position, though. I probably wouldn't last very long. Heh. Any claim in the Balkans would surely end quickly in invasion from the bordering nations, too, as I'm positive they have their eyes on them. I'm tempted to claim the Baltics - being Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania (maybe Kaliningrad, if I could get away with it?) It'd equip me with a modest GDP and military, though whoever claims Russia will surely come knocking sooner than later.
A Scandinavian claim might be good; Sweden, Norway, and Finland. If I could throw Denmark in there, too, it'd make a positively wonderful claim, provided I got the Faroe Islands (I'd be okay with not getting Greenland, though.)

In any case, I'll wait it out and see, but I am certainly interested in joining up here.

I claim Sweden,Norway and Finland, I can have territorial disputes with russia regarding Karelian territory and the Kolan Peninsula.

Whoa! Those are mostly awfully huge claims... Well, as long as there are good IC-reasons to support and explain them, That's okay for me.
Well, I have to admit that I feel slight pressure to make my claimk enormous to be able to contend with some of these empires, but I can resist it ;).

@Ka-Spel: As for the question of history: As I see it (and of yourse this might be totally and utterly wrong), there are some events, especially modern ones, which have to have happened, WWII would be one of those.
This, of course, would make a national-socialist German Empire slightly... Less possible, in my eyes.

After careful consideration, I finally decided on what to claim, and I will stick with Poland. However, I thought about claiming Germany as well and thus play two nations closely allied, maybe even in some sort of political semi-confederation, but I see three problems there:
1. The claim is huge, especially in economic terms.
2. Germany is a fun country to be played, and I don't want to "rob" otherplayers of this opportunity.
3. There is the possible problem of puppet-wanking with this, but I suppose I can handle this.
I would especially like the old AMWers to speak on this, and if you are not opposed, I'll take Germany as well and see how it plays out to handle two nations.

Thus, my only definite claim so far is:

The Republic of Cassanos

Country: Poland

Size: 120,728mi²
312,685km²

Population: 38,500,696

GDP: Total: $620.9 billion
Per capita: $16,311

What on Earth might I want to do with it:
I want to play Cassanos more or less the same way I did before the AMW-reboot, i.e. as a stable, liberal democracy currently gouverned by a centre/left-coalition.
I would probably be very interested in joining/creating an alliance with Britain, the USQ and maybe other European liberal democracies, maybe even create a northern counterweight to the enormous Roman Empire.
However, there might have to be some changes made to history etc., since in my initial concept, Cassanos has been immensely supported by Germany. Depending on who will finally end up with Germany, this might undergo some changes. If not, I will slightly increase the GDP, I suppose.

More information (although not definite at the moment) can be found on the offsite forum:
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=74&st=0
Any questions, ask me.

Is there a list of nations that have already been claimed, or are all the claims in this thread?

So far, they are, yes.
Though if an AMWer who's already a member comes forth and claims his already existing nation again, I suppose that this would override other claims.

If I recall correctly, not every AMWer who wants to continue has already made his claim.

Is Japan open, then? If so, could I have Japan (and all accompanying islands), Sakhalin, the Koreas, Manchuria, Jehol, Hebei and Taiwan?

If that's too big, or any of those are taken, I'd be willing to rework my claim.

I'll post some info about when/if accepted.

I don't know if Taiwan and Japan would get along too well. They're very much competitors in the real world, but I can see your claims as stemming from Japanese conquests, so maybe it could work.

I don't know if Taiwan and Japan would get along too well. They're very much competitors in the real world, but I can see your claims as stemming from Japanese conquests, so maybe it could work.

Understandable, I'll wait for a mod to rule on it.

If you would have me/Strathdonia back and there is a chance that I might have some african neighbours for a change i woudl liek to put a claim in for Malawi/Strathdonia with the addition of all of Mozambique this time(ie the armoured thurst didn't stop at Quelemane) and possibly Tanzania (unless Lusaka is comming back). I suppsoe I coudl also add in Swasiland so as to cause maximum irritation to any potential South African player.

A really ambiteous claim would be to include South Africa in the Mad Scots and Africans fold.

As for IC stuff it would be alrgely as Stradonia was but with the Mozambique being a bit more abiteous and a possible conflcit with the UAR involing a massive armoured right hook through tanzania (Al-Khals oil feilds anyone?).

Expect any military to be the same old mix of old, new and refurbished you all knew and loved (well were confused by).

I would like to claim to the following on the African Continent-

Population
Benin- 8,439,000
Togo- 5,700,000
Ghana-23,000,000
Burkina Faso-13,000,000
Côte d'Ivoire-18,000,060
Total_______
68,139,000


I will be changing the GDP slightly by between 5-10%, with an expected growth of 3-5% annually unless other circumstances interfere but I need to do an indepth examination of the nations and their resources--however one major thing I intend on is education reforms from an early point in history--say around 1955.
I have never RP'd these nations before, I have read some about Benin which will be the center piece of my culture.

Going with slightly more developed economy, I plan to RP these claims as the Greater Dahomey Kingdom.(First Primary Historical Divergence) With Dahomey kings having formed a trade relationship the the Kalmar Union(in reality they had purchased arms from Britain) by purchasing significant arms from them--the Franco Dahomey War ends with a French withdrawal from the region with regards to taking the Dahomey lands by force.
France institutes a soft power policy and greatly influences the Dahomey kings--hence ensuring their sway in the region while using the forces of what was known to Europe in that day as the Black Sparta to protect Franco-interests in the region. This close relationship with France helped allow the Dahomey to be remain relatively up to date given African standards and the separation between France and the Dahomey kingdom came with the death throws of colonialism in 50s and 60s where France was pressed to place its attention away from the friendly African nation towards trying to hold together rebellious colonies.

If a sample of my RP skill(or lack there of) is required I understand.

My claims:

Kingdom of Norway- 4,752,735
Kingdom of Sweden- 9,196,227
Kingdom of Denmark- 5,475,791
Kingdom(lul) of Finland- 5,312,358
and all their dependencies

As the Kalmar Union! (Total pop: 24,737,111)

The Kalmar Union has survived since its conception in 1397, although it has endured civil war and reformation, as well as expansion (into Finland). The Kalmar Union will have the high living standards of the Scandinavian countries in real life, maybe even a little higher due to the relative state of union which has allowed for more mutual co-operation than in actual history. The Kalmar Union defends its toe-hold on continental Europe (Denmark) jealously, and if there was any sort of world wars it would've done its best to protect it. The Kalmar Union would've fought against its neighbor to the east (Russia or w/e) in a historical manner, perhaps even once controlling the baltic states and eventually loosing control of them in the 1800s. This would be a good RP element to establish a goal for the Kalmar Union, the recuperation of the Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), unless they are independent and not controlled by a major power.

I would like to claim South Africa and the Solomon Islands.

I'd like to claim the following:

-Saudi Arabia
-Yemen
-Oman
-United Arab Emirates
-Kuwait

Total pop: ~56,600,000

Making a modern-day Caliphate...

A Japanese nation that includes Taiwan/Formosa is certainly fine by me, but it also brings up the question of how much RL and AMW history we are going to keep. If we decide that the Second World War happened as it did in real life, Japanese sovereignty over Formosa might be a bit difficult to explain. But I suppose that's something for us to decide in the future. I'm hesitant to approve a Japan that is still in control of Manchuria and the Korean Peninsula, though, but that depends on what Spyr and Dra-pol want to do.

My first choice for a new nation would be thus:

The Republic of Daman, a Portuguese-speaking state and ex-colony located along the coast of the Indian province of Gujarat. It would consist of the Gujarati districts of Valsad, The Dangs, Navsari, Surat, Bharuch, Narmada, Vadodara, Anand, and Kheda, as well as the Indian Union Territories of Daman & Diu and Dadra & Nagar Haveli. Map for Reference (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Map_GujDist_All.png)

The total land area, according to my calculations, would be 46,211 sq. kilometers, population 17,091,488, and population density 369.85 people per square kilometer. This is rather higher than I would have hoped, but I'd assume a greater degree of urbanization than is actually the case in those areas. GDP (PPP) per capita would be in the region of $5,500, quite a bit higher than RL India but not stellar by world standards, and this would yield a national GDP of about $94 billion, in the region of RL Peru according to one list I saw.

Demographically, the Republic of Daman would be significantly different from RL Gujarat. Hinduism will likely be the largest single religion, adhered-to by perhaps 35-40% of the population, with Catholicism and Islam vying for a close second with about 25% of Damanis each. There would also be a very large Zoroastrian community, accounting for maybe six percent of the population, the remainder accounted-for by a mix of various faiths and atheists. I'd account for this religious diversity as a result of the Republic's prominent position on the old Indian Ocean trade routes and resultant cosmopolitanism. I don't imagine that the Republic of Daman would proclaim an official language, though Portuguese will be the language of government and administration. Gujarati, Marathi, and Portuguese creole languages would be most common amongst the regular citizenry.

As for government, I think the Republic of Daman would be pretty similar to the Indian National Union, with a very high degree of decentralization and democracy, which would almost certainly extend into the state's economy. The head of state, like in the INU, will not have too much power, and the legislature will be perhaps cumbersomely large.

If this doesn't work for someone, it isn't a big problem, and I've also been considering taking-up Yemen or Madagascar. If West Africa ends-up with a pair of competing states, I also wouldn't mind playing a state based on Senegal, which would doubtless have plenty to do in such a busy region.

I would like to claim South Africa and the Solomon Islands.

Lemme add Papua New Guinea, Namibia (SW. Africa) and Madagascar.

I'd like to claim the following:

-Angola

Total pop: ~15,941,000
GDP-PC: $35,000
Basically a first world nation that was created by Ancient Greeks who fled from Roman domination of the Greek Cities on the "toe" and "heel" of Italy in several vessels, later joinied by Greeks from Syracuse and peoples from Masilla and half a dozen similar settlements who fled Roman rule by fleeing along the North and then West African Coast, as several Carthaginian Expeditions have been shown to have done.
They jounied over the course of several years to set up various poleis on the shores of Angola from 270 to about 110 BCE and then spent the next several hundreds of years fighting against each other and against the locals to establish what eventually became the modern nation with a similar cultural layout to the Greeks and Carthaginian societies that spawned it.

[And Ive started the longest holidays of my life, so I shouldnt have the activity problems that I had last time.]

Before I post anything, may I find out if either the Yugoslav states/former Austria-Hungary Empire states are open?

After careful deliberation (and after my more sure-fire claim of the Scandinavians was eaten up while I was at work, I have decided to claim...

The Austro-Swiss Confederacy

Country: Switzerland and Austria

Size: 104,810mi²

Population: 15,796,933

GDP: Total: $779.9 billion
Per capita: $39,800

What on Earth might I want to do with it:

I would turn Austria and Switzerland into the "neutral powers" in Europe. Considering their neighbors to the south consists largely of the new Roman Empire, it would make sense that the two nations in such close proximity would band together (especially considering both the nations strong cultural similarities) in an attempt to create a practical "buffer zone" between north and southern Europe to prevent Roman expansion North. I would probably pursue alliances with Poland and Germany (possibly France, too) to aid in this.

The reason this works isn't only because of Switzerland's highly efficient and incredibly skilled military, but because of both nations' dramatic importance to the global economy (particularly Switzerland). Both nations are in the top 20 richest nations in the world (Switzerland at 6th; Austria at 13th), and have two of the most stable, global-oriented economies in the world. an attack on Switzerland (or indeed, any event that would disrupt Switzerland's economy) would be likely to incite backlash internationally; every western nation has investments in Switzerland's economy because of it's reliability and stability. A collapse of the Swiss economy would send the modern, developed world into a frenzy and likely an enormous recession (disregarding most of Asia, mind you.)

Besides, I think it would make for some interesting RPs :-)

I would like feedback on this, and it isn't set in stone. Minor adjustments, of course, would have to be made in accordance with other histories and current AMW events.

Some short feedback:

I like this idea of an Austro-Swiss Confederacy pretty much, for several reasons:

1. These nations are, in my opinion, severely underestimated and under-RPs (except maybe as some kind of NPC-victim).
2. After some talk about right- and left-wingers competing, a netural power might just be the thing which gives some issues a new way.
3. ka-Spel has some pretty good reasoning behind this.

One minor thing: I wonder why the self-sustaining, somewhat solitary Swiss joined this confederacy. Given the Swiss system of popular votes on such important issues, I'd like to hear these reasons. Maybe the huge empire to the south, the will to strengthen the own position without siding with any great power bloc, maybe... :)

Woah woah woah, lots of interest!

One at a time, and forgive the rather terse responses; there are a lot of people here, and while I have no more authority than anyone else in AMW (actually less than Quinn, BG, Spyr or LRR) I'm rather opinionated. So.

Sovereign California: Not without a sensible backstory, a breakdown of population and an idea of what kind of RP you're interested in doing. And a sample of RP.

Talost: I like.

Terra Novian Atlantis: Please read the thread/provide backstory, population and a 'vision' of RP.

Cassanos: I see no reason to change what you've been doing so far.

Crook/Strath: I actually rather like the idea of your plan to 'cause maximum irritation to any South African player', especially because re-establishing the African Empire is a sort of long-term goal/pipe dream of mine.

Fran: Looks good, but I claim Stockholm. (Kidding, obviously).

ka-Spel: The Austro-Swiss confederacy sounds fun to me, but it might conflict with some other peoples' stuff. Tentative thumbs up from me.

Spiz: The history is weird... but otherwise I'm not opposed. I guess... just... ancient ships really didn't take to open sea voyaging that well...

Cassanos: I see no reason to change what you've been doing so far.
So, no Germany? ;)
No, seriously: Would work for me, as I said before. It was more of an idea for the case that Germany isn't RPed, since it plays such an important role in Europe.

I'd like a friendly, supportive Germany to the West of my nation, of course (so, if anyone is interested... *hintedihinthint*), but some crazy stuff going on there would definetely make for nice RPs.

Gurg: well they dont, but youd sail along the coastline all the way down, like the Carthaginians did that allowed them to get suprisingly far down the West AFrican Coast (they certainly reached the Gambia, and there is evidence they may have even have got as far as the Niger and returned to Carthage)

1. These nations are, in my opinion, severely underestimated and under-RPs (except maybe as some kind of NPC-victim).

Oh, indeed! Isn't that always the way? (Especially poor Switzerland.) I guess being relatively small and landlocked means you can't possibly have any military might, and larger nations can just roll over at will.

Let's face it - the only reason Nazi Germany annexed Austria during WW2 was because the Austrians were still so embarrassed about their defeat in WW1, and I reckon still had lots of German supporters. Plus, being wedged between Nazi Germany (well, Poland, which for all intents and purposes was Nazi Germany at that point) and Italy isn't exactly the best position to be in during World War 2. Even if Italy's military prowess at the time wasn't exactly the beast it was even during World War 1, the Austrians still suffered a long and arduous defeat at the hands of the Italians at the end of World War 1.

Switzerland, on the other hand, probably has the best-trained army on planet earth, and being landlocked has saved them multiple times from invasion; many people look at being landlocked as an economic and military inhibitor, but the Swiss are living proof that you can become one of the top 10 richest nations in the world with a spectacular military all on one puny lake in Geneva. And you know, I'm sure those Alpine mountains along every border don't hurt, either! (But I could go on a really long-winded rant about under-appreciated military might; Greece, anyone?)

2. After some talk about right- and left-wingers competing, a netural power might just be the thing which gives some issues a new way.

Precisely. I reckon the attitude won't be much different than Switzerland had during World War Two; "We don't give a shit if you're German, British, American, or Italian. If your planes fly over us, we're going to shoot them down." And, of course, in the event an entire war breaks out in Europe, everyone knows that the neutral get rich from it. During World War Two, the Swiss franc was the only major currency of any value before the American dollar boomed (and that was entirely the Brits' doing). Being neutral, we can lend money and sell gold to both sides without threat of invasion. Neutral is a beautiful word. Of course, we can also be imperialist and no one will bat an eyelash. "Oh honey, it's okay. The Swiss aren't invading, they're simply trying to convince Croatia and Slovenia to be neutral" ;-)
I kid...

But honestly, faced with the threat of the Roman Empire and it's mass military prowess (I presume), we probably won't be able to stay neutral for long, but we can always see how it goes.

One minor thing: I wonder why the self-sustaining, somewhat solitary Swiss joined this confederacy. Given the Swiss system of popular votes on such important issues, I'd like to hear these reasons. Maybe the huge empire to the south, the will to strengthen the own position without siding with any great power bloc, maybe... :)

That would be precisely the reason. Switzerland might be somewhat solitary, and they might be an incredible influence on the world economy (even if you don't hear about it), they're not stupid. They realize that they're less than double the size of New Jersey and are facing their massive Roman empire to the south. They're going to need some backing. If not to actually fight the Romans than to at least dissuade them from expanding north. Expand East or south... I don't care. Just not north.
Seeing a potential friend in Austria (and let's face it, if you disregard the whole Austrian Empire thing, they're practically the same country; displaced Germans and Italians who got fed up being surfs and grew up to kick some major ass.) I don't think that Switzerland would have a whole lot of resistance to unification with Austria. It might take 40 years to accomplish because of the ridiculousness of direct democracy, but I have enough history to toy with ;-)

Okay, I'm back. I'm an old member of AMW and, as I stated on the regional forums, I'm going to be dropping my old claim of Turkey/my old nation of the Ottoman Empire (be glad, Granate!), for something a little more, eh, off-the-wall is perhaps the way to state it best? Inspired by real life, of course, but I'd like to take a bit of a twist to it, as well as actually use the nick that I RP with for some realistic purpose, so I present - "The AMW Gupta Dynasty", comprising of the state of Myanmar (Burma to all those BBC watchers out there), which has a population of 47,758,181 according to the CIA World Factbook Entry (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/bm.html) (last updated June 19, 2008, so this population is pretty recent). That's a fairly large population to work with, so that'll be all for my claim as of now.

In terms of the actual substance behind this claim of mine, the "AMW Gupta Dynasty" would really have no real link to the actual Gupta Dynasty that ruled India - the new name would be nothing more than a fabrication of the current regime to sort of feel good about what they are doing (see the parallels already?). It will be a military-based junta much like the one that is currently ruling Myanmar - of course, I have no idea what being inside a military junta like Myanmar's entails, so I'll of course do some research, and, from there, work the best that I can with what I have. Due to the fact that it is a military junta, it won't have a small military, by any means, though "underfed" and "under-equipped" are probably good ways of describing what I'm looking at. Naturally, being that it is right next to those darn Geletians, they'll be rather paranoid of foreigners and such.

So why the name change to the "Gupta Dynasty"? Well, what I'm looking at is to make some social commentary on the religion I follow, Hinduism, as well. So that means that this "AMW Gupta Dynasty" will be a pretty Hindu fundamentalist state and, since I feel like tinkering with the demographics of Myanmar a bit, the state they rule will be pretty much majority Hindu - with some rather irritating vocal minorities who are used to being oppressed, etc. It's not an entirely unfamiliar story. Obviously, since the actual Gupta Dynasty is regarded by many as the heyday of Hinduism, when changing the name, they took a name that appealed to them, as well as personified the types of ideals that they had in their state. You know, ideals like the religion they followed.

Naturally, this little state is a bit of a hellhole, with poor people all over the place, lots of corruption, oppression, the standard stuff with a dictatorship. The actual political system ruling the state is some strange Hindu-military-one-party-rule-type-thing wherein a group of Hindu fundamentalist military people actually rule the state, feud with each other, argue about what to do/what not to do about the latest food shortage, live in disgusting opulence while the people on the street starve, that kind of thing. I don't imagine it's an altogether pleasant place and its immediate location next to those Geletians provides a nice little use of propaganda for all those who hate those filthy commies, etc.

Foreign policy-wise, I can't really see many in the field of friends around. Naturally, those who oppose the evil menace that is Beth Gellert would pump some weapons to this Junta and occasionally they'd wave their arms at random people, but I can't really see friends or enemies. I'd imagine that they're pretty isolationist (which fits my sporadic involvement patterns, as well as my vision of this nation) and wouldn't really involve themselves in others' affairs unless there was some Hinduism in there. After all, they're Hindu fundamentalists. I can see human rights types and others see them as a possible useful regime, though.

So that's my vision for this time around!

I actually came up with a posisble IC history behind the idea of Strathdonia and South Africa forming a commonwealth (which also conveintly answered why SA didn't go nuts about the Strathdonian armoured brigades rampaging down through mozambique) and On reflection I really would like to add SA into a Sothern Confederacy/Commonwealth as it would allow me to do things I simply couldn't even with the amount of military wank Strathdonia was want to incorporate.

But of course we have a counter claim to South Africa so I can always leave those ideas aside as it would save me the trouble of explaining how SA got hold of Mirage 2000s (currenrly based on the assumption that SA got rid of arparteid in the early 80s and France was still soemwhat close to RL a tthat time).

Fran: Looks good, but I claim Stockholm. (Kidding, obviously).


The fact that you are not claiming it is a bonus :D

Not wanting to particularly criticise Gurg who just happened to be the only one to get off his arse (well, not really, he's probably slumped in a chair, but never mind that) and do something, but I think we could have done with a more expansive opening post, to be honest.

People need to know what AMW is. As I said off-site...

I have been wanting to say that we need to discourage people from coming in and just claiming RL nations. While that isn't against our rules, it's not what AMW is about at its root. Gurg and China are a bit different, because it's what they've always wanted to do, and have consistantly done for months if not years on end.

When people jump from Earth XPZY11 to Earth OMGZORZ claiming the French Empire here, and the USSR there, well, what's the point in us having people like that? Again, AMW was originally really about our nations, the ones we made up for Nationstates, having a place in their own universe, not about Player X taking the USA and Player Y taking India and so on.

Spyr makes a good point about the size of many claims. We want to encourage people to make smaller ones. There are some big claims amongst our older players, yes, but that doesn't mean we want everyone to try that, and it doesn't even mean that all our older players are superpowers. Dra-pol is small and poor, LRR's claim has shrunk, Depkazia/The Ralish is large territorially but not population or economy, and so on. Don't treat AMW just as a chance to get major power in an Earth-type RP, many of our biggest RPs in the past have been desperately poor sub-saharan African struggles, and little Dra-pol's independence fight against the capitalists, et cetera.

As to what history we have, it's mostly tied-up in the particular nations of AMW. We had previously assumed that a lot of RL history happened in different form, but that's clearly not going to be the case so much in the relaunch.

I know we're all keen to get on with it, but we are in danger of getting ahead of ourselves.

From my own point of view, I'm not even sure what's happening with the Korean peninsula, yet. On the one hand, there hardly seems any point having the Korean War as part of my history, since it wasn't originally, and only got incorporated when AMW started and I moved Dra-pol to the Korean peninsula, having initially invisioned it as a half Imperial Japan half Democratic Kampuchea somewhere in a warped South East Asia. On the other hand, if the Choson People's Republic of Dra-pol covered the whole Korean peninsula, first we'd lose the history of the Quinntonian Aggression, and more importantly -especially if the PR Spyr ends up in northern China- I'd have no enemies capable of threatening me, which wouldn't sit brilliantly with the character of even the recent Hotanite administration.

What to do?

I wonder, could we even re-work it so that the People's Republic of Spyr replaces the Republic of Korea, the CPRD goes back to replacing just the DPRK, and northern China remains free for a potential powerhouse class enemy? Perhaps the USQ would still have the Hamhung-Hungnam enclave? I wonder if that could work for Spyr.

I would like to claim to the following on the African Continent-

Population
Benin- 8,439,000
Togo- 5,700,000
Ghana-23,000,000
Burkina Faso-13,000,000
Côte d'Ivoire-18,000,060
Total_______
68,139,000


I will be changing the GDP slightly by between 5-10%, with an expected growth of 3-5% annually unless other circumstances interfere but I need to do an indepth examination of the nations and their resources--however one major thing I intend on is education reforms from an early point in history--say around 1955.
I have never RP'd these nations before, I have read some about Benin which will be the center piece of my culture.

Going with slightly more developed economy, I plan to RP these claims as the Greater Dahomey Kingdom.(First Primary Historical Divergence) With Dahomey kings having formed a trade relationship the the Kalmar Union(in reality they had purchased arms from Britain) by purchasing significant arms from them--the Franco Dahomey War ends with a French withdrawal from the region with regards to taking the Dahomey lands by force.
France institutes a soft power policy and greatly influences the Dahomey kings--hence ensuring their sway in the region while using the forces of what was known to Europe in that day as the Black Sparta to protect Franco-interests in the region. This close relationship with France helped allow the Dahomey to be remain relatively up to date given African standards and the separation between France and the Dahomey kingdom came with the death throws of colonialism in 50s and 60s where France was pressed to place its attention away from the friendly African nation towards trying to hold together rebellious colonies.

If a sample of my RP skill(or lack there of) is required I understand.

Approval? Comment?

I understand what Drapol is saying...so do I get to RP the Dahomey? or no?

I think we need to slow down a little bit and talk about the claims that we have on the tabel, we have some major overlaps, some AMW 1.0 players who haven't claimed, and a tonne of new guys. The only thing I have ti say other than that at this time is:

What the heck kind of cultural similarity does Iceland and Canada have? LOL!

WWJD
Amen.

Well, I made my claim a page ago--and was just bringing it up as it was over looked.

I would ask it be considered.

I again have no intention of trying to be a bright shining star.

I realize this next bit will hurt my chances but,

My wife's father just passed away and I wont be able to offer anything substantial for at least a week. I need to not be focused on an internet game--you understand.

However, given my claims location I am hoping it to be insignificant enough to allow for that.

Thank you.

Skibereen: If my word still ahs any weight in AMW I would back you.


Guys I would back Dra-pol and the others in saying that smaller is often better. if you choose a small nation you will get very close to it, end up reading every possible bit of news about it and get a far better feel for it than you will of a mainstream NS nation.

The best RPs I had in AMW were a series of small scale mercenary interventions in various trouble spots. Playing as Malawi there was no chance I could even begin to RP force projection but my small band of mercs did allow me bit aprts in soem of the biggest stories. I am not sayign that small scale RP are everything, AMW has certainly had its huge scale RPs but i wouldn't be frightened of playing a small nation as generally there is a small way you can get involved.

AMW is not he place for the normal II warfare, wars tend to be as short as limited in RL as you would largely be facing the same issues RL world leader face, limited resources and the fact that a war will always have some sort of cost. Political manouvering and securing support or at least neutrality will be far far more important than buying loads of guns.

Mostly agreeing with what's been said so far, and with Gurg's quick assessment of claims and what not so far. I've no real problem with any of the old AMWerserses new claims, so long as we don't go adding too many more superpowers.

Those players who've thus far posted, "I claim X, Y, Z", I think it's fair to say, shouldn't expect to be part of AMW any time soon.

I quite like the look of Skibereen's claim, and it's nice to see Africa getting more representation this time around. In the good old days, only Southern Africa was any fun.

I do very much want to clarify that Soviet India is not a superpower that needs to be balanced against by the ability to field fifty fleet carriers, twenty battleships, fourteen thousand ICBMs, and so on, since I'll be RPing something like a $3,000-3,500 per capita PPP GDP, pitting Celtic nationalists, Hindu nationalists, and newly-added Muslims against one another, and the Maoist corridor against the Igovian mainstream, and so forth.

Interested to see what will happen with the Guptas when Hindu nationalists in the Commonwealth start causing trouble.

The United Socialist African Republics can indeed expect our support, but it won't be in the form of a carrier battlegroup parked off West Africa.

Also, ha, hadn't noticed Talost quoting me in his sig... nor do I remember writing that. Must have been drunk :)

Actually, bit of a funny story behind that. I was on IRC the other night with the NationStates Draftroom people as I usually am and we were talking about our favorite threads or something. I remembered one in NS General where a BBC story was posted about a family shocked to see a pelican eating a pigeon in a park. The discussion eventually turned to wild boars and things like that, and this really awesome post was made. I thought it was so great I wanted to use it as a sig one of my main puppets, Kargucagstan, now my main, but I already had a good one. So I put it on this nation, a puppet I had used only a little. Well, this nation died as that was, eh, at least a year ago. Anyway, when I revived it for AMW I found the sig still attached and realized, with some surprise, that it came from the guy I will be RPing with.

EDIT: Found the pelican thread. Indeed one of the greatest threads I have ever read, extremely amusing and good for a late-night read. Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=504433). Oh, and it's actually two years ago if you look at the time stamp. No wonder you don't remember it.

EDIT 2: You actually say in the thread that you were "drunker than you thought," so I imagine that had something to do with not remembering it, too.

Anyway, on the size of claims I would just like to say that there's a reason countries are the size they are in real life. It's not arbitrary, it's because either the people hate each other, are fiercely independent, etc. To lump nations together, no matter how small or insignificant, requires a dramatic shift of world events. I even feel bad about taking Liberia in addition to Sierra Leone. Oh, and my GDPPC is roughly $702, BG, so even at your modest level any help would be great.

AMW China's claims:

(Taiwan is still up in the air, to be worked out with Cobourne (sp?). Northern China unclaimed)

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7597/chinaprovincesyj6.png

I would still like an official word about my Austro-Swiss Confederacy claim from a page ago. I know that it's technically unifying two countries, but I feel like I've given an adequate explanation for their unification and, frankly, would seem to make a whole lot of sense in AMW-reality. Considering their positions and similarities.

I understand Talost's point which is why i specifically went withthe Dahomey heritage--they did indeed rule over several tribes who hated them--and managed this without genocide. They themselves were greatly hated for being active in the slave trade--rather then killing war prisoners at an annual sacrifice they would sell a large portion of them(how this is worse i am unsure).

So choice for unification was strategic--plus it could give Talost and I an interesting local dynamic given Liberia's history.

I realize that these are supposed to NS Nation on real land--but to some degree making them alternate history is more fun.

Yes, I think all of Africa north of the Sahara will be very interesting RP from the get-go. That brings up another point, though. When do we start setting up specific roleplays?

Although I can't really say definitively, I'm in support of both of your claims.

I think we need to slow down a little bit and talk about the claims that we have on the tabel, we have some major overlaps, some AMW 1.0 players who haven't claimed, and a tonne of new guys. The only thing I have ti say other than that at this time is:

What the heck kind of cultural similarity does Iceland and Canada have? LOL!

WWJD
Amen.

The joining of Iceland and Canada is more based on economics that true culture. Fishing and whaling being on of the bases of the Icelandic economy similar to the far eastern provinces of Canada where fishing, and whaling were/are big economic staples.

I've been back and forth. Should I? Shouldn't I?

I will.

But I endorse Strath's expansion over any part of my former territory that he feels inclined to expand over, so long as he continues playing it reasonably.

I want to bring back Derek Igomo, Theodor Tendyala, Mini Sinkala, Colin Olongwe, George Tanko, and Livingston Miyanda, but not as you are used to seeing them, as masters of a post Roycelandian Africa. Without Royce, I really can't do that, anyway!

Instead I'll follow up on something I've been tinkering around with. That lot will be in opposition, essentially. I would use the United Republics of Bungussi & Djanvallaland to RP a white-dominated apartheid government over Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, and the Republic of Congo. Igomo et al will constitute the black majority's resistance movement.

In this proposed state I'd take the real PPP GDP, which comes to about $9,950 per capita with something (roughly worked out, I admit) like 7% yearly growth in real terms. In reality this is mostly due to EG's petrochemical boom, and hardly benefits the nation at all. In AMW it will be due to the white-dominated coast and the best farmland being extremely productive and competative in a much wider range of economic pursuits, while oil production will be much lower (as, likely, will be prices, I assume?).

Those nations would give me about 6,000,500 people in an area about the size of France. In other words, ten times less populated than France! One million would be white, five million black, and the remaining five thousand Indian and other labourers brought by the former colonial powers.

I would like my first RP to be the white-dominated minority government's unilateral declaration of independence from a European empire. In reality France and Spain dominated the region. I would like to have maybe the British as the last masters, but have France as the power it dislodged, and have Spain and possibly the Dutch and even Portuguese and others as early explorers/settlers/exploiters before the big Euro powers came and took over.

So we'd start with Bungussi & Djanvallaland's white minority declaring independence from Britain, without asking or receiving permission, and go from there, with African Socialist Igomo and his cohorts wanting independence but opposing white apartheid rule.

Lusaka, you know that by saying that you are waving the idea of an attempt at a CAF/Rhodesia-Nyasaland version fo Strathdonia. All i need is a way to explain why Malawi decided not to break off, perhaps , dare I say it, no aparteid in Rhodesia?


Now if Strathdonia actually consited of the R-N antions plus mozambique it would make things very very interesting for a south african player

AMW China's claims:

(Taiwan is still up in the air, to be worked out with Cobourne (sp?). Northern China unclaimed)

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7597/chinaprovincesyj6.png

Considering your a former member of AMW, I think you have a right to claim Taiwan if you wish. Though I certainly wouldn't mind it if you were willing to split it. It could provide an interesting RP opportunity if I'm accepted.

I'd like to rework my potential claims to the following. If you don't want to read it all, take my word that it is the rest of the PRC.

1. Population
Henan-97,170,000
Shandong-91,800,000
Jiangsu-74,330,000
Hebei-68,090,000
Hunan-66,980,000
Anhui-64,610,000
Zhejiang-47,200,000
Jiangxi-42,840,000
Liaoning-42,170,000
Guizhou-39,040,000
Heilongjiang-38,170,000
Shaanxi-37,050,000
Shanxi-33,350,000
Jilin-27,090,000
Gansu-26,190,000
Nei Mongol-23,840,000
Shanghai-17,420,000
Beijing-14,930,000
Tianjin-10,240,000
Ningxia-5,880,000
Total
868,590,000


2. My intended government, akin to Corbournne's government, would operate under the auspices of a Capitalist Republic. While undoubtably capitalist, the level of democracy is widely questioned. The executive is elected for life, but important decisions must be agreed upon by members a cabinet-like device. This is really only to prevent an insane ruler from maintaining power, as the executive chooses the members of his "cabinet" before he runs for election. All political parties are outlawed.

I'll maintain the current economies, as well as their growth rate. When it comes to credentials, etc. I've been a member of several NS Earths, including Wagdog's Earth of Suspension and Succession, Kampfer's Earth: A World of Promise, Amazonian Beast's Earth: A Final Judgement, and Amazonian Beast's Earth: Second Resurrection. I'm also a member of a large amount of off-site RP's, and I'm a fairly active member of my region, Novus Universitas. Hopefully, some people here can offer positive testimony, or, if not, I will try to pull up something or other.

EDIT: For the real Corbournnian government.

Is this on II or on another website

Our roleplay takes place in International Incidents, but it's a closed group. That means that while it is on II, you're not really part of mainstream NS. On the other hand, these are for the most part our real NS Nations, (sometimes we use different names, though. I call myself Britain, but Gurguvungunit has always been played like an Imperial Britain, so it makes sense). I'm saying all of this to make it clear that we don't actually violate the prohibition on Earth RPs, since this isn't technically one of those.

Gurg, I'm finally going to repsond to your question about the economics of the Roman Empire. I know it looked like I forgot or didn't see it, but I didn't! The means of production in the empire would be mostly privately owned, but with a great deal of government involvement in what's produced and in what quantities. For the most part, the government lets them work as their owners see fit as long as it does not defame the empire or break any of the church's laws and ethics. Yet during times of crisis, shortages or on some whim of the Caesar, they will be told to shift their production for the purposes of the state. I'm looking to make the economy much more industrial than NG's France. Services like health care, mail, etc. would be within the public sector and would be available to all citizens within the Empire. That is what I envision the economy of the Roman Empire to be like in a nutshell.

Hail Caesar!

Okay, I am thinking of being a Pacifica sort of West Cost state, with the whole liberal part of liberal democracy as an emphasis. I see people talking a lot of China, so maybe I'll have a nation that stretches from Alaska to... maybe, Baja Caliornia, but I will try to not make it too wide...

As they say on the internet... read the thread. The US is claimed.

Alright, let’s start from the beginning. As already mentioned earlier by Dra-pol, my own claim is a bit up-in-the-air as we resolve issues around the conversion/reset/what-have-you. Hopefully all of that will be worked out, but until then I suppose I ought comment a bit on the claims that are building up, both old and new.

Gurg- The only concern I had about your claim was the African portion, given that it (added to Gibraltar) leaves London essentially in control of the only exits to the Mediterranean. However, we look to be getting quite a few interesting ideas for the continent, which seem likely to balance each other out and lead to interesting roleplay in the (rather successful) pattern of SSA prior to its absorption into the AMW fold. Just promise me someone in Khartoum will be wearing a pith helmet and you've got my full support.

BG- An India-spanning Commonwealth is certainly an interesting prospect... were it to retain the economy and military technologies of AMW's pre-rebirth ISC, it would be too much, but you've mentioned intent to play the Soviets as poorer and more internally divided, which would seem to keep things within an acceptable limit, particularly with Southern China on the other side of a likely-uncomfortable border.

North Calaveras- At present, I'm not inclined to support any of your multiple one-line claims, if only because I'm not sure what you're proposing to do with any of them.

Quinn- An interesting claim... I can certainly see the reasoning behind addition of the Philippines, allowing a state based in North America to have a springboard for close involvement in Asian RP. Keeping the colony following WWII would even seem to feed a bit into Gurg's claim, as if Washington was less inclined to lead the way in divesting overseas holdings following the War, London would have been in a better position to hold on to its own colonial territories.
Mexico, on the other hand, I'm not too sure about... that would leave 30 million Canucks as the only non-Quinntonians on the North American continent, and bring your total claim to a half-billion souls, with significant wealth to boot. Friend or foe, an independent Mexico represents something that has to be dealt with at home, which would keep the continent interesting.

Ralish- That's quite a switch, but one I'm looking forward to seeing in action. I will miss that hippo, though... absolutely delicious. You have my support.

Vecron- The core of the League, reborn as Rome... my only concern here is that the claim stretches across several nations which by themselves would seem likely to birth ideas for individual states... "The Second Spanish Republic outlasted Franco and fought off the Nazis in the Pyrennes”, "The Burgundians conquered the Franks in 534, and the Eiffel Tower now stands in Dijon". Not that someone couldn’t be waiting out there with an imaginative proposal for a nation in the Solomon Islands, of course, but the higher profile of France, Spain, & Greece would seem to make things more likely.
Still, a large Roman empire already seems to be generating ideas amongst other players, which is always a good thing, and I certainly don’t see anything which really merits an objection on my part, so I’ll follow the lead of the other European veterans on this one, and if they’re comfortable with it I’ll back it as well.

St. Fabian- I’d like to hear more about your vision of how your claim came to be unified… as Quinn already mentioned, cultural differences far outweigh similarities in RL, and it would help to see how they were overcome, or how history unfolded to remove them in the first place.

Granate- Turkish fascists… my, my, that’s an interesting prospect, particularly as there would seem to be several dynamics at play in terms of relations with other states… a shared political ideology with Rome countered by likely territorial disputes on both sides, while the most likely allies against Rome are also probably going to hold opposing ideologies.
Before I offer up approval, however, I’d like to know a bit more about Greco-Turkish relations as you see them. While they do share some similarities, in RL they seem to lack much sentiment of brotherhood… Orthodoxy vs. Islam, and a history of invading each other, come immediately to mind. Had you imagined things to have worked out differently in your proposed past?

Talost- Looks good to me, and you’ve had a bit of a head-start in getting together a satisfactory claim, so there really isnt much vetting left that needs doing: I’ll offer support for your claim.

Terra Novian Atlantis- Perhaps you could supply a bit more information on the nature of the state proposed in your claim?

Cassanos- Any concerns I might have had about your German-Polish claim are ones you’ve already raised against yourself, which is probably a good sign you can handle it. I think you’d make an excellent Germany, so if you want to claim it I’ll give you my vote. The same if you’d like Poland, or both… whatever you feel comfortable with.

Cobournne- A few issues with the claims you’ve put forward, revolving around likely conflicts with AMW veterans… my own claim ought probably sprawl out from Primorye over Manchuria, and AMW's founding father can be found in North Korea, so those would have to be resolved first.
Other than that, on the surface it looks like your first claim is a Japanese Empire that survived post-war dismantlement, while the second is a Northern China that looks to be politically a lot like… well, Southern China, really. In either case I'd like a better idea of what exactly you want to do with the claimed territories.

Crookfur/Strath- Go for the South Africans... will leave you in a better position to push forward interesting projects, even without Hindustan around to share the investment costs. Or Rhodesia, if that strikes you as the better route. You can count on my support either way.

Skibereen- A large West African power, but perhaps only because Talost is going to be so small. Nothing objectionable on this end, provided Ralish and Talost have no concerns.

Franberry- For some reason, 'Kalmar Union' keeps giving me images of space battleships and laser cannons, but that's neither here nor there. No objection here at the moment, though more detail is always welcome.

Sovereign California- Strathdonia would have first shot at South Africa, given his double advantage of being first to claim and an AMW veteran, and the territories mentioned are rather scattered. Still, I find myself strangely curious: South Africa and the Solomons? How would that have come about?

Doomingsland- A modern Caliphate? Not a bad idea, and it leaves enough room in the Middle East that the region’s substantial oil reserves wont end up in the hands of a single monolith… plus, it would seem to make sense that other faiths would try to make a go of it along the same religion+state lines as Quinntonia. Perhaps you could expand into a bit more detail on the shape your claim would take?

Spizania- I was about to comment on the strangeness of Greeks ruling in Angola. Then I looked around at the rest of the standing claims. If we have Celts in India and Scots in Malawi, we ought have room for your proposal. My major concern at this point is the per-capita GDP of $35,000, which seems perhaps a bit too high (particularly compared to the economies claimed in bids for other states in the region).

ka-Spel- The Austro-Swiss Confederacy is an interesting proposal, sandwiched between Germany and the Romans in a rather uncomfortable position and trying to maintain neutrality. Barring objections from other established AMW players, I’ll support your claim.

Gupta- Another veteran heading off in a new direction! Your proposed Hindu junta in Myanmar looks to be in the Drapoel mold of ‘horrifyingly interesting’… I offer my support to it.

LRR- I offer my support to your claim of Portuguese Hindustan. Just one question, though… if AMW resets again, will you shrink down to just Goa?

AMW China- Support is, predictably, offered from my corner. Will we be seeing everyone’s dear friend General Liu, or a less extreme approach to leadership in China’s southern state?

Lusaka- As always, a complex picture right from the get-go, for which I will offer my support. If nothing else, this time I’ll get to watch Igomo’s rise first-hand.

New Brittonia- Your proposal is entirely contained within already-extant claims. In a more general sense, I’d suggest not making claims based on the size of some other people’s proposals, but rather on the idea you have for a nation that would have arisen in a particular patch of geography.

---

One more note on something that has shown up in a few bids. General/umbrella terms ("and all assets/dependencies/claims thereof", "and all their dependencies", etc) risk disputes and confusion. Does it include territory claimed but administered by another state? Overseas military bases?
We should probably be careful to use specifics when it comes to claimed territories, if only to make sure everyone involved has an understanding of just what belongs where.

Okay, would a New England type state work then?

Either that or I could limit my claim on the pacific coast... I think Canada is claimed, so maybe I could just be from Washington to California (Baja California would be a bonus). I would look to stretch out west... including Nevada and Idaho, but Utah and Montana would be bonuses, too

Umm...no, you don't get it, ALL of the United States is claimed already. Check back on the first page under USQ. He's claimed all the United States.

Damnit, that just destroied my dream... I can't play this any more..

I have no objections to Skibereen's claim. If anything it should provide an interesting source of conflicts. I do want to talk to Ralish and Skibereen about a few things, though, namely whether ECOWAS exists. If it doesn't then my nation's history would be greatly different.

Too bad, then, however, there are still roughly about 150-170 countries or so unaccaounted for, from Azerbaijan to Russia ^^.

As for my claim: If no one else has claimed Germany so far, I would very much like to claim it as my second nation, at least until someone shows up with a better idea.

This mostly for the reason that, given the enormous Roman Empire to the South and west, a possible Scandinavian Empire to the north, and Russia to the east, Europe promises to become a lively spot in RP terms.
Since Germany is such an important player in Europe and both economically and geographically central, I'd think it sad if it was just a mere NPC.
Besides, Cassanos and Germany, maybe (NPC)BeNeLux and possibly the Austro-Swiss-Confederation could provide a useful counterweight against the aforementioned empires.

This Germany's policy would be quite similar to thr Cassanotian one I have proposed so far, with both countries as advocates for a unified, peaceful and democratic (central) Europe, much as France and Germany are in RL.
In this scenario, relations between Germany and Cassanos (i.e. Poland) would be similar to the Franco-German ones after the 1950ies, including a reconciliation, ever-increasing "teamwork" and also military cooperation, going as far as cuilding up binational formations.
Both nations' interest would probably lie in improving inter-European relations, especially if Quinntonia is really turning isolationist, they would probably aspire close cooperation with a (democratic) British Empire and the Confederation as well as Quinntonia, while watching Rome and a possible fascist Turkey with very suspicious eyes.

Besides, the non-existence of a RL-like France and all-European unification etc. would probably have interesting implications on the German history and self-understanding. You get the drift, i hope.
Of course, if more information is needed to decide about this claim, feel free to ask, I can elaborate.

The Federal Republic of Germany

Country: Germany

Size: 357,021 km²
137,847 sq mi

Population: 82,217,800

GDP: Total: $2.81 trillion
Per capita $34,181

Spyr:
There aren't that many scots in Strathdonia, honest ;)

Actually the Scottish thing was pretty random to begin with but as the idea developed and I rea dmore of Malawi's history and followed Rl events (malawi seemed to be the Scottish Parliment's pet project for a while) it all just seemed to fit.

The toss up between SA and R-N is a tricky one but i think in the end the R-N is the more falvourful route, especially as with a none aparteid rhodesia and slightly extended british influence it would be a pretty stable and reasonably developing nation. Mozambique/Simba would be an ongoing trouble zone since its largely Catholic and Strathdonia is ICly a bunch of paranoid CoS types. this make the promise of the HL idea not being dead very attractive as I can spout my usual condemnations of them.

So my Formal claim is:
pop:
Malawi: 12,884,000
Zimbabwe: 13,349,000
Zambia: 11,668,000
Mozambique: 21,397,000
total: 59,298,000 (60mil)
Size:
Malawi: 118,484 km²
Zimbabwe: 390,757 km²
Zambia: 752,618 km²
Mozambique: 801,590 km²
total: 1,956,449km²
economy:
(GDP per head)
Malawi: $596
Zimbabwe: $188
Zambia: $1,000
Mozambique: $1,389
Average: $793

ICly I woudl propose taking GDP per head up to approx $2000-3000 to acount for significantly more investment and the fact nobody has been been destroying farmign industries or the neighbour's land.

Military wise it would be uiet expansive and in soem ways better equipped than the old SDF it all depends how much old stuff I cna poke out of gurg (cue dreams of Cheiftans and Challnger 1s rampaging through Africa with flights of Buccaneers and Jaguars flying CAS and strike missions overhead).

New Brittonia: There is still a lot of central and South America up for grabs IIRC plsu there is plenty room for fun in Africa!

Cobournne- A few issues with the claims you’ve put forward, revolving around likely conflicts with AMW veterans… my own claim ought probably sprawl out from Primorye over Manchuria, and AMW's founding father can be found in North Korea, so those would have to be resolved first.
Other than that, on the surface it looks like your first claim is a Japanese Empire that survived post-war dismantlement, while the second is a Northern China that looks to be politically a lot like… well, Southern China, really. In either case I'd like a better idea of what exactly you want to do with the claimed territories.


2. My intended government, akin to Corbournne's government, would operate under the auspices of a Capitalist Republic. While undoubtably capitalist, the level of democracy is widely questioned. The executive is elected for life, but important decisions must be agreed upon by members a cabinet-like device. This is really only to prevent an insane ruler from maintaining power, as the executive chooses the members of his "cabinet" before he runs for election. All political parties are outlawed.

I'll maintain the current economies, as well as their growth rate. When it comes to credentials, etc. I've been a member of several NS Earths, including Wagdog's Earth of Suspension and Succession, Kampfer's Earth: A World of Promise, Amazonian Beast's Earth: A Final Judgement, and Amazonian Beast's Earth: Second Resurrection. I'm also a member of a large amount of off-site RP's, and I'm a fairly active member of my region, Novus Universitas. Hopefully, some people here can offer positive testimony, or, if not, I will try to pull up something or other.

Yes yes, Spyr raises a good point. Both Northern China and Southern China are very similar politically at this point. Southern China is essentially an off-shoot from nationalist china, a single party state with an emphasis on capitalistic expansion. Also, what is your historical background? A change of leadership in the Communist Party?

I'm actually quite keen to try something new and very different though to differentiate, perhaps a British-influenced state in the Pearl River delta area?
Consisting of Guangxi, Guangdong, Fujian, Taiwan, and Hainan.

Cobournne- A few issues with the claims you’ve put forward, revolving around likely conflicts with AMW veterans… my own claim ought probably sprawl out from Primorye over Manchuria, and AMW's founding father can be found in North Korea, so those would have to be resolved first.
Other than that, on the surface it looks like your first claim is a Japanese Empire that survived post-war dismantlement, while the second is a Northern China that looks to be politically a lot like… well, Southern China, really. In either case I'd like a better idea of what exactly you want to do with the claimed territories.

With the Japanese claim, I'd naturally be willing to concede any of my claims to former AMW players. I saw that the US player also claimed the Phillipines. Perhaps a reason for their unification could be that the Japanese Empire survived to a certain extent, and the US was less willing to give up her Pacific possessions.

Yes yes, Spyr raises a good point. Both Northern China and Southern China are very similar politically at this point. Southern China is essentially an off-shoot from nationalist china, a single party state with an emphasis on capitalistic expansion. Also, what is your historical background? A change of leadership in the Communist Party?

Well, actually, my original plan was to either have a PRC akin to the current one, or have some version of a restored Chinese Monarchy. I read a few things about the Qing, Mata, and Yuan pretenders to the Chinese throne, and those would be pretty interesting to role-play.

However, I noticed that we had to have a government similar to that of our NationStates nation. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch, though, to assume that a leader Communist Party came to power and liberalized the economy a little, while retaining firm control of politics, etc. Of course, I suppose it would be likewise possible to have a liberal monarch who, while authoritarian, allows minor political and economic freedoms.

Claims.
Uganda - 31,367,972

The Republic of Uganda

What I want to do...

I plan on RP'ing as a third world shit hole run by corrupt government officials, warlords and rebel factions... like RL Uganda with my own spin on it. I do not have aspirations to build some massive global empire, but perhaps an empire of crime and filth that will cover more countries than any other in the world. I will use the actual modern political situations, with the Lords Rebel Army in the north, the unstable verging on corrupt democratic government ruling, and a merciless criminal known as General Avis as my main character - ruling his own personal army as well as a vast criminal enterprise. I hope to make an interesting RP out of this, even if I won't be the largest of nations.

I'll start out with a short personal introduction. I'm a long time role playing friend of Quinntonian Dra-pol and upon hearing that this modern world group is starting over I'm really excited to make a pitch to join in.

My idea is to play the Soviet States under the premise that the bolshevik revolution was squashed out and that the monarchy is as strong now as it ever was. The historical timeline would follow a slightly twisted line of soviet history over the 20th century with a parallel WWII, cold war and economic collapse of the 80's. History would change when in 1991 a new Tsar took the throne brought about economic and political reforms that has put Russia (Kievskaya Rus on a gradual rise back to being a leading world power. They aren't there yet, but they in a state of increasing re-development.

Real world nations included in this Tsarist state would include (pending availability)

Russia

Belarus

Ukraine

Moldova

Georgia

Armenia

Azerbaijan

Kazakhstan

Uzbekistan

Turkmenistan

Kyrgyzstan

Tajikistan

Estonia

Lithuania

Latvia



All with real world populations, real world GDP +20% or so (this is a recovering economic power) and a flavour that would aim to capture my interpretation of the soviet union attempting to establish it's self at the "Third Rome".

Major internal forces would include the royal family, the imperial council and the Dume (upper and lower houses), the orthodox church and various oppressed opposition or rebel forces.

Let me know what you think of this.

As for my role playing resumé.
I've got a facebook group with all sorts of role play details from the D&D game I run. Check it out (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=24546590200), particularly my world description as written by a traveller (http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=24546590200&topic=5026) of the world.

I like the idea.... but how about less of a Gigantic Superpower of Doom. I know what you're trying to portray in terms of storyline, but I think that with the current setup, you'd be able to sweep through Europe and destroy everyone in sight... which really isn't the point, you know? I'd say, either knock your economy back to RL standards for Russia (which is a developing economy like you say) or knock off a few of those satellite states. Some of the 'stans (Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, something like that) could possibly go without compromising your claim's integrity/cultural flavor too much.

I know that as resident European Empire, I might not be the best person to say why AMW doesn't need any more. I'd recommend you have a look at claims like China's, which while by no means small is very reasonable. We also have our share of straight-out weak nations, like Talost's socialist African thing, or what-have-you. I dunno, just food for thought.

Hey folks!

For my RP Resume (har) you can check out various news posts and Behind-the-Headlines bits at EE's regional forum (http://s4.invisionfree.com/Eastern_European_HQ). Though you might have to search a bit for anything meatier than 'hey, I'm still here!' You could also do a forum search here for FT stuff I made as Santa Barbara.

My rough idea is as follows, subject to change and I welcome any input whatsoever (particularly with regards to history and foreign relations). Essentially it's Brazil with more corruption, more militarism in general, and lots of angles for drastic, potentially violent political change:



República Federativa do Brasil
Population: 186,757,608
Area: 8,514,877 km² (3,287,597 sq mi)
Territories: as RL Brazil.

Unlike in the real world, this Brazil's Diretas Já wasn't a success; it was a massacre.

Of course, the military rule would surely have ended anyway, except for the neoliberal and free-trade policies it managed to enact, staving off the economic crisis that in the real world, was handled by elected presidents. The military doesn't rule directly these days - but the President doesn't rule, isn't elected and can do nothing without its explicit support.

The income gap is enormous today; the wealthier of Brazil rival those of any other country, while the poorer are a teeming mass of political instability just waiting to burst. Civil liberties are low. Death squads are still a possibility for those who become too dissident; imprisonment far more likely.

With such a large territory, population and a wealth of resources, there's no shortage of foreign interest in capitalizing - one way or the other - on the ticking time-bomb that is Brazil.

Wow, first The Resi Corporation comes back and now Santa Barbara. Seems like all the old guys are coming back. Dunno if you remember me, SB, but try the name "Einhauser." Ah, the Tradelands. I miss that region.

Anyway, I resent being called weak! My bare-footed, starving child soldier crack addicts will wipe the floor with you bourgeois!

Claims.
Uganda - 31,367,972

The Republic of Uganda

What I want to do...

I plan on RP'ing as a third world shit hole run by corrupt government officials, warlords and rebel factions... like RL Uganda with my own spin on it. I do not have aspirations to build some massive global empire, but perhaps an empire of crime and filth that will cover more countries than any other in the world. I will use the actual modern political situations, with the Lords Rebel Army in the north, the unstable verging on corrupt democratic government ruling, and a merciless criminal known as General Avis as my main character - ruling his own personal army as well as a vast criminal enterprise. I hope to make an interesting RP out of this, even if I won't be the largest of nations.
Just realized I hadn't posted any RP experience. This is from a 19th century RP as the Kingdom of Siam.

The Edge of Paranoia (http://z15.invisionfree.com/A_Northern_Divide/index.php?showtopic=31)

Aghs! Trostia!

I mean, yeah, sounds good. I don't think there'll be any problem with welcoming Trostia here.

I agree pretty much with Gurg on Kievskaya Rus. I'm not wholly opposed, but I think recreating the USSR in Tsarist form with a substantially bigger economy is a bit much for us, and possibly consumes too many potential claims for others to come. We don't seem to be struggling to attract interest, at the moment! I'd probably back a slightly reduced form of the claim, at this point.

Kroando looks okay to me at a glance, but since I'm on a time-constraining budget I'll leave others to look into that properly.

Actually, coming to that (my limited time)... and considering how much serious interest we are getting, and that we've already got a massive British Empire, probably at least one or two big, powerful Chinas, strong blocks in Europe, the mighty USQ, larger African nations, a potentially powerful Brazil, and now possibly a large claim in the Russian Empire, I feel a bit uncomfortable about expanding the scope of my Indian claim so vastly.

On the one hand, maybe we need a strong Socialist power more than ever (I told you guys the talk of left-wing bias in AMW was absolute twaddle! Look at it! Apartheid and monarchy up to your hysterical Fascist salute!), and a big, divided, poor Communist India would just be asking to be pulled apart. But on the other, I think I'm taking up too many people and potential states (we could have the Tamil Kingdoms restored, a new attempt at Sri Lankan Socialism, a great Bengali state, and loads more within my one claim, after all).

Feel free to point out why this is a stupid idea probably brought on by staying up all night to catch the Euro 2008 final (Ha! Stick it, Cassanos! ;)) -bloody antipodes-, but reading Cassanos' Germany thoughts, and possibly seeing Trostia here, has got me thinking GDR. Or, should I say, BDR.

My brain is totally fried right now, but I wonder, would it be too outlandish to move BG back to Europe, and blend it with Germany rather than India? Ethnologically, of course, it makes a frickload more sense than a couple of hundred million Celts on the subcontinent and means that less people have to accept a massive Geletian stampede through their territory at some point in history. The Gupta Dynasty could also relocate to some Indian state(s) or other, if he wanted.

But does AMW need BG in India? Does AMW need a bigger left-wing power? Is Cassanos willing to share Germany, if he gets far the bigger part?

If I were to go for this, a blending of Beddgelert and East Germany would be manufactured. Depending on community/Cassanos opinion, I would either whine about not having E-time enough to figure-out what is the modern population of that which used to be the GDR until someone else does it, or just take the 16.111 million estimated to be there around the time of reunification and give the FRG the 66.1 million or so that subtracting that total from modern Germany would leave. That totally makes sense, shut up.

Whether Berlin would be divided, or the western population just shifted, er, west is another matter, of relatively little importance to me up front. History and exact composition would depend on, well, the history that Europe works out, I suppose. Whether we were part of Germany until recently, or a Geletian state for centuries, either is workable for me.

I'm going on about this quite a lot, now. It has become a pretty appealing idea in my tired head. BG in the Eastern Europe region was finally finding some sort of direction, but the region has become slow even by my standards, after a couple of years of dithering on my part. Now I'm kinda keen to play something related to what I was building there, but in a more active and, uh, global environment.

As to the economy, well, it'd not be as big as the FRG's, all though East Germany's economy was by some estimates (relatively) bigger than the UK's, in its prime, and in any case it would certainly be bigger than Soviet India's was, per capita.

Really, I just think that I'll find 16 million people more manageable, and during stints of activity, well, we'd just be hiding behind a wall, or something...

Oh hey Einhauser! Weren't you also in OotS at one point too? Good times anyway.

BG - Actually, I always kinda liked the oddness of BG in India, it's what gave AMW a bit of flavor to me even though I never read the RP's here, that was something I knew since it was unusual. Yet it seemed like it worked. Of course, Europe probably does make a bit more sense.

Trostia gets my support, which all things considered ought to put him at least most of the way to getting in. Kroando seems fine as well.

BG, I also rather like Soviet India, but it's your call. I think that considering our sudden rightward slant, you can easily get away with a large, not undeveloped economy in India, and your manpower really only equals that of our prospective Russia or the Roman Empire, both of which are right-of-center. That said, it's your choice.

In response to Spyr's question, well, I've always wondered whether it would work to RP as a citizen of any given AMW country. That might give things an interesting angle. ;)

It's important to note that, by approval, I don't mean anything binding or prohibitive, and if others have no problem where I have a problem, freely ignore what I have down.

Anyway, here's what I think of the claims made so far:

Gurguvungunit: I definitely approve this claim. Despite its large size, which did at first make me uncomfortable, the new British Empire sounds very interesting and I have no doubt that the G-man will have a good run with it.

Granate: The Turkish fascists idea strikes me as very interesting and I'll readily approve that claim. It will be interesting to see how such a Turkey gets along with the Romans, and surely there's scope for diplomatic incidents over Crete and the Dodecanese.

Quinn: I'm of the same mind as Spyr on the issue of Mexico's inclusion in your claim. The Philippines works for me just fine, but Mexico strikes me as excessive and I don't think a good case has yet been made for its being part of the USQ. As of now my vote is against a Quinntonia that includes Mexico.

Ralish: This claim has my full approval, and I'm certain that Ralish/Depkazia would do a superb job with any part of the world.

Vecron: It looks like a good claim, and it has my approval.

Talost: Another very good claim, approved without any reservations.

Cassanos: Poland definitely works for me, as does Germany as a second nation.

Skibereen: It looks like another excellent West African claim, and I'll gladly approve it.

Franberry: At first glance I was a bit reluctant to endorse the lumping-together of all of Scandinavia, but this certainly has a historical precedent and you'll no doubt do something good with it, so it is fine by me.

Doomingsland: A good claim, by my judgment, so I'll approve it. It will be nice, as I believe has been noted already, to have some activity in the Middle East once again.

Spizania: An interesting idea, that's for sure, though a per capita GDP of $35,000 seems more than a little excessive for the area in question. It's even high by the standards of Western Europe. I'll approve it, but a lower degree of wealth would certainly make me more comfortable with the claim.

ka-Spel: I can approve this claim without any problems, and it appears to be quite well thought-out and viable.

Guptas: Definitely approved. It looks like the makings of a very interesting and entertaining state.

AMW China: I have no reservations approving that claim, which also has the added benefit of leaving room for more states in RL China.

Lusaka: Approved without any problems whatsoever. It will be excellent to have another active state in West Africa.

Cobournne: I have to agree with Spyr when it comes to that claim so far. I have no problem with Japan, but claimed territories besides Japan present their fair share of difficulties, and we could do with more of an explanation with regards to how Japan came to possess, or managed to hold onto, such territories, or how such territories came to control Japan.

Strathdonia: This claim has my full approval, and South Africa would as well if you decided to go that route.

Kroando: It looks good, and I approve this claim on Uganda. The idea of a trans-national crime syndicate is also very interesting.

Kievskaya Rus: A little large for my tastes, though I'll approve it for now with a view to see how things turn out a little further on.

Trostia: This looks like a great claim, and it will be good to have somebody in Brazil at long last. I remember we had a few claims on Brazil in the past but none of them showed very much promise.

BG: I'd be perfectly fine with either a Soviet India or a Germany, but the Daman Republic will look pretty vulnerable without the rest of India to back it up if some European flotilla arrives offshore. :( Whichever seems more appropriate to you is fine by me.

Eh, I hope that helps.

Hello, I hail from the Free Land of O Casey. I could not help but notice this splendid offer, but I do possess a few inquiries, if you would have me.

I have never partaken in any such roleplaying, or roleplaying at all for that matter. I must say, it does spark my interest. Are you accepting green recruits? At least 1 year of military service is required in the land of O Casey, and I do believe that you will find I am quite willing to learn, if you will but train and teach me. However, I will take no offense to negative affirmations. If it is not to be so, then please, do you have any suggestion on how I may begin on the adventure that is roleplaying?

With much gratitude,

Free Citizen

Well, BG, even though you favoured the Spanish last night (a day that shall live in infamy, even though they were playing much better), I'd have no problems sharing Germany, however, a survival of the GDR in one way or the other would pose some problems, most of which you already adressed.
I suppose that moving a Celtic population to Eastern Germany can be worked out (though Celts have been living mostly west of the Rhine), but if we assume that there was no USSR, but a Tsarist state, there would have been no socialist satellites in eastern Europe.
You could, of course, have it the other way round, assuming that Eastern Germany's people revolted against a capitalist regime in favour of socialism, or something.
However, being locked between strongly allied Western Germans and Cassanotians would probably limit your opportunities somewhat, since their combined military and, most of all, economic power is far bigger than the former GDR's, especially since it wouldn't have been backed by their Russian masters anymore and would not have been supported by the FRG through reunification. Given that the RL-GDR's economy was on the brink of collapse in1989, and only being kept more or less alive by Western Germany's loans, I suppose that the GDP would be much lower. On the other hand, economic problems might make people favour socialism...
(Look, y'all, I'm ranting!)

Anyway, I am fine with this proposal, especially since it gives me/us plenty of interesting RPing opportunities, but it might be easier for you to choose another country such as Czechoslovakia or Hungary or such (or any combination of other Eastern-European countries) to provide you with a better political and geographical position (not that I doubt your ability to RP these problems well, on the contrary).
Well, there could be a socialist power bloc emerging between Hungary and the Balkans, for instance, this would provide you with some more power and AMW with a bigger socialist power to be reckoned with.
As I said, just ranting a little about the problems of opportunities.

Besides, today's population of the former GDR's regions is about 17.5 million or something, without Berlin. Since many Eastern Germans moved to the West after reunification, a population of maybe 20-21 million including East Berlin would be realistic, I think-

Ceterum censeo: There will be new championships in 2010 and 1012. Beware!

Kroando- Interesting proposal, and one for which I'll offer my approval. Having a player actively involved in the criminal underworld will ensure everyone else pays attention to that aspect of things as well.

Kievskaya Rus- So, then, new AMW will look like old AMW, only with less socialists and no Americans in Korea?

More seriously, my concerns about your bid pretty much mirror those expressed above by Gurg, so I'll leave him to take point on this one.

Trostia- Brazil, large but unstable, inviting foreign meddling? Sounds like an excellent opportunity for RP... how could anyone say no to that? I offer up my support for the bid.

BG- I must say, the idea of an India without a mass of Communist Celts just seems odd... but ultimately, moving them to East Germany would make them no less interesting, so if that's the route you want to go I'd offer my support for it. My only worry is that, with the USSR struck out from history, the PRC divided, and no Soviets in India, we're running rather short on candidates for 'leader of the Communist world'. At this point, the job will fall to Spyr, and we're an awful choice... sham communists who think the final battle to overthrow capitalism wont happen for another few centuries, and are perfectly happy to be economic partners with the feudal opressors in the meantime.

It would change the dynamic between socialist and non-socialist states, though... there certainly wouldnt be reason for much anti-communist sentiment amongst other states without a Cold War or the danger of those unwashed masses of Reds looming on the horizon (unless domestic communists were a viable threat, I suppose). Would AMW's equivalent rivalry end up being something different instead? Feudalism versus democracy? Theocracy versus secularism? Coke versus Pepsi?

Coke forever!

Kievskaya Rus: Don't take this as a slight, but the more I look at your claim the more certain I am that it needs cutting. I'm going to eat my words from earlier and say that at this point, I'd be strongly in favor of you taking the current boundaries of the Russian Federation with its RL economy. That gives you plenty of room to grow without having a crap starting point; Russia is 15th in the world in terms of GDP. With proper development you could easily claw your way up to 10th or so. On the other hand, it doesn't make you a superpower to rival the United States, which is almost certainly a good thing from a community standpoint.

In terms of resources, Russia itself has vast mineral and petrochemical reserves even without the Baku oilfields, and it has several decent ports in Murmansk, Arkangel, St. Petersburg and Sevastopol. You even have Vladivostok, which makes you one of only three nations to have ports in two oceans (the others are Quinn and myself, by dint of Australia and Singapore). Russia, played correctly, could become quite the trading nation. With 142 Million people, its population is smaller than some, but absent the collapse of the USSR it could be rationalized that the population is growing nicely rather than shrinking like it is in RL. This all gives you an upwardly mobile, well placed, minerally rich nation without putting you in a position to literally conquer Eurasia.

Oh, you'll also have an easy time doing your military writeup, because Russia has a vast domestic military industry rivaled only by the United States. Be glad, it's a pain trying to invent/research military tech for places like Britain, which does almost all of its development under the auspices of the EU.

Thank you all who responded to my proposition.

Considering the comments made about my claim I've come up with some amendments. I'll get to those in a second.

I've made up this new State of Kievskaya Rus specifically to play this nation in the modern world group, Kievskaya Rus being a romanized transliteration of Kievan Rus, the medieval state that preceded Belarus, Russia and Ukraine (or so says the history according to wikipedia). So that said I'll get on the amendments.

Based on feedback I'd be fine to scale back my proposal to real world GDP. I'd also drop the southern soviet nations (Kazakhstan, Georgia ect). I'd like to keep Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. As for Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, there could be a good potential conflict with this proposed Scandinavian empire.

Here is a short historic explanation.
Historic Kievskaya Rus is Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. The Kievskaya Russian Empire by the end of the 19th century controlled most of the RL soviet union with the exception of Baltic States which were added to the empire after an assumed WWII. During the 1980s; economic collapse, nationalist and religious revival and ethnic tension lead to a war of independence for Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Georgia and the other southern nations at end of the the 1980's. The Baltic states have been in a state of near constant rebellion ever since, perhaps their independence is recognized by some members of the international community. In the early 1990s the Tsar (now known as Yevgeniy the weak) was succeeded by his son who slowly turned the country around from collapse to a re-emerging power.
A few other thoughts, we may or may not have had an arms race with the USQ that ended after loss the Uzbek-Kazakh war. Possible historic conflict with Germany and the Scandinavian kingdom may have potential to be rekindled. Possibly we would have strong support for other historic empires.

Yeah, let me know what you think. I'm excited about the idea. I think I've got some really cool ideas for current events such.

I look forward to RPing with you guys.

Well, I've had some sleep, and things look a little different... unfortunately I had about fifteen hours sleep, and they look like cotton wool.

KR's revised claim looks reasonable enough to me, and as he says it leaves plenty of room for potential conflict of one form or another, IC. Some of it possibly with me :)

On to my possibly altered claim...

As to what Cass said, well, yeah, without the USSR the Beddgelen Democratic Republic would probably have to rise through a revolution or some such event either within Germany or simply 'Beddgelert' if we end up having East Germany never exist, or something. Er. Oh, not having the USSR around wouldn't be all bad for our economy. No crippling Stalinist reparations, for starters! Then none of that running the economy first to benefit the USSR and only then the GDR. Also, of course, some Igovian economic democracy would be shoehorned into the East German consumer socialism to make it a bit more vibrant, I suppose. But in any case, my plan had been to have something like a $20,000 per capita GDP, or certainly less than $30,000 anyway.

If we end up having any sort of equivalent to the Second World War, perhaps Kievskaya Rus ended up occupying East Germany, and then a Celtic revolt kicked off in the Geletian community (which would have an altered history in which they started in Central Europe and crossed the Rhine, instead of half of Asia!). Possibly KR's enemies -even if they're capitalists- backed the revolt at some point, before it became obviously Communist in nature.

Maybe the west expected German reuinification to follow the anti-Russian revolt, but then it became apparent that the revolt had ideological leadership from within the Clan Igo, in the form of Igovian Communism.

Or, Llewellyn plays his part again, and takes charge of the Celtic revolt and spends years delaying the process of reunification with this technicality and that demand for concession and so on, simply because he wants to secure more and more personal power within the new united Germany, while being de facto allied to the western capitalists, until the Igovians arise some time later -perhaps '82, as in the old RP- to kick him out and end all reunification talks.

Anyway, you are probably right about the scale of the odds against a solitary socialist West German state, and Spyr is right about the PRS being left as probably the strongest so-called socialist power.

Perhaps I should add Czechoslovakia?

With the Geletians as a dominant force in both nations, uniting the territories as Beddgelert, whether the other Germans and the Slavs like it or not? Or as two nations, the Beddgelen Democratic Republic and the Socialist Republic of Czechoslovakia? Perhaps they could be in a loose federation, a miniature Warsaw Pact, possibly called the Cottbus Communist Contract or something catchy like that :) Probably the BDR would be dominant, which would cause all manner of problems from the Czechs and Slovaks, but that's all the more fun, eh?

What would the CSSR add, about 15.5 million people, at a guess? (Can't be arsed checking just now, in a rush.) Along with 16-20 million East Germans, sort of. A good 32 million people, possibly more, with something in the area of a $600-720 bln economy experiencing no small number of problems but with a pretty large military-industrial base with which to defend itself.

I'm quite enjoying this idea, already. I didn't miss someone claiming the CZ Rep or Slovakia, did I?

Also, dark-horse bet on Inka Cola, expecting that Strath will already be backing Irn Bru.

Is there a set date for Rping to begin? It seems that many of the claims were approved.

KR: Approved.

BG: Approved.

k-S: Not really, and I don't think there's anything stopping you from making a thread. Word on the street is that you've been accepted to AMW, so you should feel free to go ahead and start a thread if you have an idea. Remember, all military equipment must be in active production by 2007.

Actually Gurg, I feel like we should all wait for a moment before we start posting RP threads. First of all we need to get our factbooks up and approved before we can start actual RP. Lets not jump the gun here. Those who have been approved should go to our off-site forum and post a factbook for the community to review and once that is done, THEN we can start RP as a group. Otherwise, we'll get into the whole mess of military tech that certain can't/shouldn't have that we ran into last time.

So Ka-Spel, I suggest you start work on a factbook and post it on the off-site forum for the community to approve. I have already begun work on my factbook, and all those who have been approved to enter should do the same.

I have a question on tech. Seeing how the history is differing from real life, how does that impact (if it does) what types of vehicles, say, one has? Would it be a good thing to just assume that there is a USSR analog, that produced things like the T-62 and sold it to places like Brazil? How far can you stretch this? Brazil with a small, professional and well equipped USA-style military isn't my thing, but supposing it was, would that be possible and how?

tech is a soemwhat tricky issue in AMW, a lot of us use it as chance to develope historical "what might have been" national projects.

I.e .say for a brazil goign it a bit more alone (and if they were willign to export to say, africa) the the Osario MBT would proabably be in servcie as would ASTROS III.

For those nations who don't histroical defence industries we do have to rely on what the others decide they want to ahve an export.

And then we have multi-national porjects, they were painful last time and they will be a pain again (for Gurg mainly who if we were to abandon all european projects would eb flying bucanneer GR.9s, fighter bucaneers, super sonic harriers (P.1154s) and a fighter that either looks strangely like the Eurofighter, F-16 or a single engined F-14, depending which mad HS or BAE project i nudge him towards).

I'm interesting in joining, but I don't see any map or list of taken countries...what's taken, and what's still available? Sorry if this question has been asked before.

I only ask because I would either like to take Serbia and Montenegro, or maybe have a Bulgaria-Romania-Serbia thing going. If that's ok, ill write up a normal post about it.

Cobournne: I have to agree with Spyr when it comes to that claim so far. I have no problem with Japan, but claimed territories besides Japan present their fair share of difficulties, and we could do with more of an explanation with regards to how Japan came to possess, or managed to hold onto, such territories, or how such territories came to control Japan.

Very well. Understandably, it's hard to work with World War Two History, but I'm assuming at some point there was at least a war between the United States and Japan, as the claimant of the United States cited the Phillipines being held onto after that war.

If that is indeed the case, there would, naturally, have to be a Japanese Empire. China states that he is KMT-esque breakoff from the PRC (or at least that's what I have grown to understand). The existence of the PRC would, most likely, lead one to come to the conclusion that there was indeed the preceding Qing Empire, ROC, etc.

Thus, I wish to propose that the Empire of Greater Japan likewise existed, and, China, USQ, etc. willing, expanded to somewhere close to its WW2 heights. It subsequently attacked Pearl Harbor, as in RL, which lead to the Pacific War. The US retook the Phillipines. However, due to a divergence in history, Admiral Yamamoto was still alive, and returned to Japan to influence politics. With his call for peace, the Emperor decided to negotiate a truce. Not a surrender, but a more-honorable truce with the US, which would lead to the continuance of a, albeit reduced, Japanese Empire.

If I retain parts of Taiwan, North Korea, Sakhalin, it could be deduced that Japan got a favorable treaty. If I only have South Korea and Japan, it can be assumed that the treaty was more strict on the Empire.

Here are my tentative claims. To clear up the question of whether I want Japan or (the rest of) China, I've decided that I wish to pursue the Japanese claim. If accepted, I would keep the RL total GDP, or possiby reduce it, with the much greater chunk of it coming from Japan, while the other countries are brought down due to Japan turning all foreign investment, etc. towards Tokyo.

1. Japan - 127,690,000
2. South Korea - 48,224,000
3. North Korea - 23,790,000 (Heard something about an old player who would come back and take it. So obviously, if that is the case, forget my claim to it.)
4. Republic of China (Taiwan) - ? (If AMW is willing to split it.)
5. Sakhalin - 673,100 (Mentioned interest in it first, but understandable if it is given to the Russian claim)

Total - 175,914,000-222,288,392 (Pending disputed claims)

I apologize for any misspelling in the preceding post, my spell check is broken.

Gah, I've got to get a bloody claim up, don't I, given Lyong will be likely sprawling out from Primorye into the Russian Far East and Manchuria, and we've now got claims in the area, so if it doesnt get out soon it will end up stepping on people's toes when it finally does clamber into view. Was hoping to hold off until Dra-pol and Q worked out the nature of USQ involvement with the CPRD, but that may take some time (it would probably be best to get Dra-pol's perspective on claims including South Korea as well).

The biggest issue on this front is one of size, which comes back to the matter of Communism and its role in the world. As things stand, communism isnt the bogeyman that terrified Western leaders from the Russian Revolution through to its collapse and 'defeat' in 1945, its that silly little thing some states pick up as part of nationalist independence movements in 1950s East Asia. There won't have been any Stalinists, Lenin will have been shot before putting his theories into practice, and the first 'big names' in terms of putting ideology into practice will have been Mao, Shiwen, and Sulo... Igo's writings on anarcho-communism thus likely emerging as a criticism of Strainism or Kurosite thinking rather than Bolshevik Marxist-Leninism.

In a world with a larger socialist 'father figure', Spyr can persist very much as it has previously, not small enough to swat down but not large enough to usurp Progressive leadership. Its comrades are annoyed at times, but there are bigger challenges to be faced before the Lyongese need to be corrected. If we end up with a player emerging to claim a larger socialist power to replace the USSR or Indian Soviet Commonwealth, that would remain a plausible approach.

Left as pre-eminent Progressive power, however, Spyr probably ought take a slightly different form... larger, more lumbering perhaps, and ultimately with the flaws in its chosen system far more front-and-center. Promises of world revolution and freedom have been left behind, too many concessions made to the capitalists, democratic institutions tainted by authoritarianism and cults of personality. A power that has lost its way, and its legitimacy in the eyes of younger and more hotblooded revolutionaries around the globe. One imagines Bedgellen extremists detonating car bombs in Sithin to try and shake the PRS out of its complacency, and internal struggles between the elder social-democrats in charge of various socialist political organisations and younger anarcho-syndicalists seeking to displace them and follow a more active course. Or something of the sort.

Granate, I hope you don't mind, but since Vecron is a previous AMW member, his claim gets priority unless the two of you work something out. Additionally, Germany and Poland have been claimed by Beth Gellert and Cassanos, both AMW members. BeNeLux and Denmark are still open, if I recall correctly.

I've been playing on and off for a couple of years now,
and have noticed an annoying habit of " the Old One's " as Lovecraft would
call them, to fall back on some Noob-ish habits of interfering with other
people's affairs by way of intimidation and wholly unrealistic scenes of
wars, politics and what ever else.
I have always liked either RL tech or the people who play past tech.

The people who have anime, StarTrek, or some other Future tech fetish should
go out and buy one of the hundreds of REAL games which cater to those kind
of tastes, ( I'm a borne Trekkie ) but this is not the place to do that.

Why is it that the Oldest players seem to be some of the worst Role Players?
They aren't content to help new players learn the ropes?

What is it with these insane ( size and supplies ) Countries / militarys ?

All I'm saying is play the game,
Play fair,
Help the Noobs learn correct Role Playing skills,
Stop making rediculous statements which only lead to hard feelings,
Don't high jack some One's thread just because some one doesn't understand
how the game is played.

And Can we keep the War's tech realistic?
Or Historical?

Is this too much to ask from some of ya'll?

I hope this is read seriously,

( Oh and one further adendum, can we kill the smily Icons? )

On tech, especially military...

Trostia's question is quite valid.

If Russia ends up having never been communist, I suppose it's up to KR, if he is confirmed as our Russian player, as to whether or not things such as the AK-47, MiG-29, and T-72 were ever produced by Russia. Hopefully he can tell us yes or no in a blanket way to all Soviet tech. If he says no, then we will have to agree whether another nation built all Soviet military tech, or have it never exist and allow nations that can realistically support a sufficiently advanced military-industrial complex to build direct equivalents on their own initiative. Perhaps the T-62, in that case, would cease to exist, but a Brazilian tank called the Mark-62 (or something more Portuguese) would mirror its stats or something. If he says yes, then people can only have T-62s et cetera if KR would have sold them to that particular nation.

We don't want people just saying, oh, yeah, I've got MiG-21s and T-62s and AKMs if their nation has always been at odds with Russia. It has to make sense.

I say, though, if people don't want to fuss so much over military matters and don't plan to get into wars right away, they can be vague and just give us an idea of what their general state of armament is like. You know, 'the Fredland Air Force has about two hundred retro-70s fighter jets, and the Army uses some upgraded 60s tanks from the west' or something like that, for people who don't want to go bald figuring out what they're allowed to have, or what makes sense.

If you want to get into a war, you'll have to put in the effort, of course.

East Asia

Damn complications!

I call Corbournne's attention to this! Going to waffle about Korean history, a bit!

I considered moving back to South East Asia, where Dra-pol was originally imagined to be, but I think that Korea has become too deeply infused in the nation for that to be worthwhile, it'd feel like a waste and be a lot of effort. So Dra-pol is stuck in Korea. The question is just exactly how much of Korea.

Having a Japanese-Empire played will make things rather different. We must try to figure something out.

I think it's safe enough to say that, as before, The Choson People's Republic of Dra-pol will be based at least in North Korea. It would maybe be workable to have the Korean War be rather different, though. We had previously assumed that it was close to reality, in having the North backed by Maoist China fighting the south backed by the USQ and its allies. This could change, though, and almost fit better with AMW's history. The Quinntonians, after all, were really baffled by Dra-pol when they landed in probably the '80s and the Three Day War kicked off, so perhaps Quinntonia wasn't directly involved in the Korean War of the 1950s, but rather it was Japan in the south.

So, history would go something like this:

In ancient history, Korea was unified under the so-called Drapoel, who refer to the nation as Choson, the land of morning calm. The nation fights off numerous invasions, typically by using incredible brutality, a mind-boggling degree of militarisation, and frequent retreats to the highland spine. The Drapoel Empire is an autarky, wildly xenophobic, and so forth.

In the early C20th, Japan essentially annexes Korea, and violent resistance kicks off. Emperor Wiman is gradually discredited for being far too soft, and losing many battles. The Drapoel never recognise the legality of the occupation.

In whatever replaces WWII, a man known only as Sulo rises to the fore of a rebel movement disassociated from the Emperor. His partisans have far more success against the Japanese, and eventually come into de facto control of the uplands and much of the north, though the Japanese continue to hold much of the coast, many major cities, and the bulk of the south. Sulo is regarded by many as one of the earliest modern Communist theorists, though he is very much nationalist, racist, and rather primitivist, and never really makes himself clear on whether or not he considers his movement a politically Communist one.

After the war, much of the world ignores backwards, isolationist Korea. Sulo declares Wiman illegitimate due to his military impotence, and the Japanese, shattered by war, are forced to withdraw south. Sulo's partisans organise a regular army and launch an invasion of the south in 1950, coming desperately close to driving the Imperial Japanese Army out of Korea for good, only to stall at the gates of Busan, where from where they are driven back by naval gunnery and aerial bombing.

Pushed beyond their original line of control and almost against the banks of the Yalu, Sulo's forces are in a desperate way until, perhaps, the Spyrians organise a relief effort or invasion of their own, details largely up to Spyr, and the Japanese are again driven south to the 38th parallel.

Presumably, neither the Empire of Japan nor the Choson People's Republic recognise the legitimacy of the other, and both claim all of the Korean peninsula.

After the Korean War, the CPRD is proclaimed and becomes totally isolationist again, likely to the annoyance of the Spyrians who helped them to drive back the IJA only to be shut out. At some point during the blackout years that follow, Sulo is replaced by another man using a nom de guerre, Kurosian, who develops Sulo's ideas and makes them much more clearly Communistic. His second in command is known as Hotan, and during these times Dra-pol organises a totally new Communist society.

The Drapoel only leave their borders to conduct espionage and state terrorism against the Japanese, and ordinary citizens are actually lead to believe that the great war of the early-mid C20th wiped-out the outside world, and only they remain in a state of civilisation.

In the 1980s, the Quinntonians come ashore in the CPRD, curious and responding to the sinking of a civilian vessel by Drapoel coast guard units. The Three Day War ensues as a result of great cultural misunderstanding.

Further conflict with the US and its allies follows, and several nations establish enclaves on the Drapoel coast as Japan watches in frustration. A huge war in the 1990s kills hundreds of thousands of Drapoel and westerners, mostly Quinntonians, and after it only the Quinntonian enclave at Hamhung and Hungnam remains, others having been over-run.

Kurosian is assassinated by the Quinntonians, and Hotan survives an attempt on his life to take over as Director.

Hotan invades the Japanese south? Do we keep this war? I have to go, right now, but I'll be back soon enough to discuss this...

If we end up having any sort of equivalent to the Second World War, perhaps Kievskaya Rus ended up occupying East Germany, and then a Celtic revolt kicked off in the Geletian community (which would have an altered history in which they started in Central Europe and crossed the Rhine, instead of half of Asia!). Possibly KR's enemies -even if they're capitalists- backed the revolt at some point, before it became obviously Communist in nature.
Well, I assume that Cassanos, as RL-Poland, was more or less a Russian puppet during the Cold War, but broke away earlier from the Eastern power bloc than in RL, possibly early or mid-80ies.
Following this confusion and general unrest, maybe encouraged by this sign of Russian weakness, the east-German Celts pressed for their own independence?
In my eyes, since there was a Cold War, the West, but definetely West Germany, would have backed the "oppressed people of the east", probably, as you said, expecting reunification (which would probably have had many advocates in the east as well, I think). Totally up to you.

Anyway, you are probably right about the scale of the odds against a solitary socialist West German state, and Spyr is right about the PRS being left as probably the strongest so-called socialist power.
Perhaps I should add Czechoslovakia?
I still think that it might be easier to move the empire slightly to the south, e.g. consisting of CZ, Slovakia, Hungary and maybe Romania and/or Bulgaria (or leaving them as room for expansation).
Mind, I am NOT saying all this because I want all of Germany or a landline between Germany and Cassanos (though I'd like these as well, but the lack would make it all the more interesting to RP), but because I think that this geostrategic position would be quite hard to maintain, and I'd really like to see a communist power bloc in southeastern Europe.

However, that's of course up to you and I'm fine with whichever course you take.

Since the question was asked. I'm assuming all RL soviet/russian military for Kievskaya Rus as well as international sales of such equipment.

On tech, especially military...

Trostia's question is quite valid.

If Russia ends up having never been communist, I suppose it's up to KR, if he is confirmed as our Russian player, as to whether or not things such as the AK-47, MiG-29, and T-72 were ever produced by Russia. Hopefully he can tell us yes or no in a blanket way to all Soviet tech. If he says no, then we will have to agree whether another nation built all Soviet military tech, or have it never exist and allow nations that can realistically support a sufficiently advanced military-industrial complex to build direct equivalents on their own initiative. Perhaps the T-62, in that case, would cease to exist, but a Brazilian tank called the Mark-62 (or something more Portuguese) would mirror its stats or something. If he says yes, then people can only have T-62s et cetera if KR would have sold them to that particular nation.

We don't want people just saying, oh, yeah, I've got MiG-21s and T-62s and AKMs if their nation has always been at odds with Russia. It has to make sense.

I say, though, if people don't want to fuss so much over military matters and don't plan to get into wars right away, they can be vague and just give us an idea of what their general state of armament is like. You know, 'the Fredland Air Force has about two hundred retro-70s fighter jets, and the Army uses some upgraded 60s tanks from the west' or something like that, for people who don't want to go bald figuring out what they're allowed to have, or what makes sense.

If you want to get into a war, you'll have to put in the effort, of course.

East Asia

Damn complications!

I call Corbournne's attention to this! Going to waffle about Korean history, a bit!

I considered moving back to South East Asia, where Dra-pol was originally imagined to be, but I think that Korea has become too deeply infused in the nation for that to be worthwhile, it'd feel like a waste and be a lot of effort. So Dra-pol is stuck in Korea. The question is just exactly how much of Korea.

Having a Japanese-Empire played will make things rather different. We must try to figure something out.

I think it's safe enough to say that, as before, The Choson People's Republic of Dra-pol will be based at least in North Korea. It would maybe be workable to have the Korean War be rather different, though. We had previously assumed that it was close to reality, in having the North backed by Maoist China fighting the south backed by the USQ and its allies. This could change, though, and almost fit better with AMW's history. The Quinntonians, after all, were really baffled by Dra-pol when they landed in probably the '80s and the Three Day War kicked off, so perhaps Quinntonia wasn't directly involved in the Korean War of the 1950s, but rather it was Japan in the south.

So, history would go something like this:

In ancient history, Korea was unified under the so-called Drapoel, who refer to the nation as Choson, the land of morning calm. The nation fights off numerous invasions, typically by using incredible brutality, a mind-boggling degree of militarisation, and frequent retreats to the highland spine. The Drapoel Empire is an autarky, wildly xenophobic, and so forth.

In the early C20th, Japan essentially annexes Korea, and violent resistance kicks off. Emperor Wiman is gradually discredited for being far too soft, and losing many battles. The Drapoel never recognise the legality of the occupation.

In whatever replaces WWII, a man known only as Sulo rises to the fore of a rebel movement disassociated from the Emperor. His partisans have far more success against the Japanese, and eventually come into de facto control of the uplands and much of the north, though the Japanese continue to hold much of the coast, many major cities, and the bulk of the south. Sulo is regarded by many as one of the earliest modern Communist theorists, though he is very much nationalist, racist, and rather primitivist, and never really makes himself clear on whether or not he considers his movement a politically Communist one.

After the war, much of the world ignores backwards, isolationist Korea. Sulo declares Wiman illegitimate due to his military impotence, and the Japanese, shattered by war, are forced to withdraw south. Sulo's partisans organise a regular army and launch an invasion of the south in 1950, coming desperately close to driving the Imperial Japanese Army out of Korea for good, only to stall at the gates of Busan, where from where they are driven back by naval gunnery and aerial bombing.

Pushed beyond their original line of control and almost against the banks of the Yalu, Sulo's forces are in a desperate way until, perhaps, the Spyrians organise a relief effort or invasion of their own, details largely up to Spyr, and the Japanese are again driven south to the 38th parallel.

Presumably, neither the Empire of Japan nor the Choson People's Republic recognise the legitimacy of the other, and both claim all of the Korean peninsula.

After the Korean War, the CPRD is proclaimed and becomes totally isolationist again, likely to the annoyance of the Spyrians who helped them to drive back the IJA only to be shut out. At some point during the blackout years that follow, Sulo is replaced by another man using a nom de guerre, Kurosian, who develops Sulo's ideas and makes them much more clearly Communistic. His second in command is known as Hotan, and during these times Dra-pol organises a totally new Communist society.

The Drapoel only leave their borders to conduct espionage and state terrorism against the Japanese, and ordinary citizens are actually lead to believe that the great war of the early-mid C20th wiped-out the outside world, and only they remain in a state of civilisation.

In the 1980s, the Quinntonians come ashore in the CPRD, curious and responding to the sinking of a civilian vessel by Drapoel coast guard units. The Three Day War ensues as a result of great cultural misunderstanding.

Further conflict with the US and its allies follows, and several nations establish enclaves on the Drapoel coast as Japan watches in frustration. A huge war in the 1990s kills hundreds of thousands of Drapoel and westerners, mostly Quinntonians, and after it only the Quinntonian enclave at Hamhung and Hungnam remains, others having been over-run.

Kurosian is assassinated by the Quinntonians, and Hotan survives an attempt on his life to take over as Director.

Hotan invades the Japanese south? Do we keep this war? I have to go, right now, but I'll be back soon enough to discuss this...

First of all, on tech I would keep most of the modern JSDF stuff, replacing US?UK-made equipment with more Japanese equipment. Naturally, I would also give its army, navy, and air force offensive capabilities. Not sure about the whole nuke thing, but I'll assume that the Pacific War never got to the stage where Japan was bombed, so perhaps Japan will have a China-esque nuclear force.

As for the history, I certainly have no qualms about Sulo's rebellion or his subsequent invasion of southern Korea. As for the rest of it, I assume Spyr will effectively replace the role that PRC played in RL. It would naturally make sense that Japan and Choson would have no realtions with each other, each claiming the entire Korean Peninsula.

Regarding the US(Q) wars with you, I'll assume that Japan would not get involved to avoid fighting alongside the US, as sentiments would still run high against them up until the present day. If you intend for Hotan to have invaded Japanese South Korea in the '90s, I don't have a problem with that. Assuming it ended in a stalemate or Japanese Defensive Victory, we could flesh out a few details for the benefit of our fellow RPers and so we ourselves know the extent of damage remaining in the Koreas.

Actually Gurg, I feel like we should all wait for a moment before we start posting RP threads. First of all we need to get our factbooks up and approved before we can start actual RP. Lets not jump the gun here. Those who have been approved should go to our off-site forum and post a factbook for the community to review and once that is done, THEN we can start RP as a group. Otherwise, we'll get into the whole mess of military tech that certain can't/shouldn't have that we ran into last time.

So Ka-Spel, I suggest you start work on a factbook and post it on the off-site forum for the community to approve. I have already begun work on my factbook, and all those who have been approved to enter should do the same.
Anyone have a link to the off site-forum?

Leistung- We had a player who previously played the nations which made up the former Yugoslavia, including Serbia, Bulgaria, and Montenegro. Romania remains free of claims or potential claims at the moment.
I'm afraid we do seem to have done a poor job of checking exactly which of our elder players will be continuing on as we reincarnate...

Dra-pol (and everyone else, I suppose)- That certainly seems a plausible approach to East Asian history... Spyran involvement in the Korean War, in place of the PRC, would fit with the idea of a period when Sithin pursued a more active course... USQ ignorance of the CPRD would even end up being better explained than previously, as that insular nation stands flanked by Japan (a country which both disliked Washington and had no reason to encourage foreign involvement in territory to which it still lays claim) and Spyr (a country which, probably knowing the Dra-pol as well as any outsider really can, would have told curious onlookers that it would be better to just keep their distance from Korea until it decided to emerge of its own accord). By the time the USQ and Drapoel come into conflict, Spyr is no longer willing to 'rock the boat', and stays entirely out of things other than perhaps moral support for the Choson People's Republic.
I'd hoped the fall of Seoul could be preserved as well, as it added an interesting new dynamic to the CPRD, but there would be a lot to work out, particularly wether a nuclear weapon was used against Dra-pol.

In terms of the wider world, there seem to be two major historical issues to be worked out... first, the Second World War seems to be a very different beast. Rome sits on both the lands in Western Europe which were occupied by the Nazis, and those which were allied to them... did Hitler strike out against Caesar and Tsar, or were Rome and Berlin allies against London and Moscow? Or is the Roman Empire a post-War occurence, uninvolved in the War?
In the Pacific, the USQ would seem to have been a weaker player than the RL USA... able to retake the Philippines and free Southeast Asia, but unable to force Japan to surrender its empire in Korea or Taiwan, nor to bomb the Japanese mainland into accepting an unconditional surrender and occupation?

The Cold War which followed after WWII also looks to be emerging as significantly different, with a Tsarist empire in Eastern Europe instead of the Warsaw Pact and no communist-capitalist dichotomy dividing the world into partisan blocs. My view is that without communists there would have been another threat, another dichotomy, emerging in the post-War, but I'm not sure what that would be. And perhaps there was no great rivalry of ideologies, but merely the more petty matter of national and regional concerns.

Dra-pol (and everyone else, I suppose)-In the Pacific, the USQ would seem to have been a weaker player than the RL USA... able to retake the Philippines and free Southeast Asia, but unable to force Japan to surrender its empire in Korea or Taiwan, nor to bomb the Japanese mainland into accepting an unconditional surrender and occupation?

The Cold War which followed after WWII also looks to be emerging as significantly different, with a Tsarist empire in Eastern Europe instead of the Warsaw Pact and no communist-capitalist dichotomy dividing the world into partisan blocs. My view is that without communists there would have been another threat, another dichotomy, emerging in the post-War, but I'm not sure what that would be. And perhaps there was no great rivalry of ideologies, but merely the more petty matter of national and regional concerns.

For the USQ, perhaps a POD could be utililized. If, for example, Japan's declaration of war came a larger time before Pearl Harbor, then the American leadership and populace would be less geared for revenge as the were in RL. Naturally, the war would progress, and the USQ began to defeat the Japanese. Yamamoto, still an influential player in the Japanese military, returns to Tokyo, say after the Solomon Islands Campaign in late 1943. He uses his status to forward a "honorable peace" movement. This would be before the USQ had liberated much of Indonesia, Phillipines, etc. The prospect of the Japanese retreating to their pre-war position of Taiwan (or even north back to Japan itself, depending on whether I get any of Taiwan) with no bloodshed would be a prospect that it would be hard for the less vengeful Americans to decline.

After this defeat, Japan will move into a second period of isolation. Not as extreme as the first. Any foreign businesses who wish to deal in Japan would be allowed to do so, but only in certain areas and under restrictions. However, foreign influence won't be allowed a strong presence, as Tokyo will do everything it can to prevent knowledge of the defeat passing through to the next generation. Soon, the Korean War against Spyr and Choson will take the country's full attention. As time passes, Japan will remain isolationist in World Affairs, especially toward Americans. Eventually, perhaps around the time of the USQ-Choson War, Japan will open up more towards America and the rest of the world in general. Tokyo would not at all be happy with American influence in Choson, but they do realize that, for the first time, that America is not necessarily the only great evil.

(I'm calling the USQ America, as I'm not sure exactly when the switch in government occured.)

Japan's opening up with the world is mainly to highlight Choson-sponsored terrorist attacks in South Korea, as a kind of world propoganda movement. All aid (if any is offered), however, would be declined. If Hotan does decide to invade South Korea in the '90s, 00's, Japan would advise the world to leave the Internal Matter to Japan, while at the same time speaking out about the evil North.

In terms of the wider world, there seem to be two major historical issues to be worked out... first, the Second World War seems to be a very different beast. Rome sits on both the lands in Western Europe which were occupied by the Nazis, and those which were allied to them... did Hitler strike out against Caesar and Tsar, or were Rome and Berlin allies against London and Moscow? Or is the Roman Empire a post-War occurence, uninvolved in the War?

I had envisioned the Roman Empire to come about after WW2, with a massive Romanist movement starting in Italy and spreading first to France, then Spain and culminating with the conquering of Greece in either the late 70s or early 80s (or sooner, depending on feedback from the community). I had planned the entrance of the Roman Empire to be much like that of the Holy League from AMW 1.0.

Granate, I hope you don't mind, but since Vecron is a previous AMW member, his claim gets priority unless the two of you work something out. Additionally, Germany and Poland have been claimed by Beth Gellert and Cassanos, both AMW members. BeNeLux and Denmark are still open, if I recall correctly.

Gurg, Granate revised his claim. He is taking Turkey, Cyprus and the Crimea. Sort of a fascist Turkish state. I think that was… four pages back?

As for the question of whether to have AMW countries produce RL country’s tech, I believe that every effort should be made to explain how that can be done. It would be a gigantic hassle to recreate every single piece of technology that Russia/USA/etc ever made, not to mention increasing the difficulty of breaking in new players exponentially greater. If it is absolutely impossible to mesh the tech with a new country, then we should try and adapt it, but not before.

In the same vein, then, it would be wise to maintain as much real world history as possible, if only to simplify things.

Here (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?act=idx) is a link to the off-site forums, by the way.

As for the USAR, I’ve done some thinking on it, and made a few more decisions. First, since Nigeria is part of Ralish now, he would have had some influence in both Sierra Leone and Liberia’s civil wars. In real life, Nigeria deployed as part of ECOMOG, but since ECOWAS doesn’t exist in AMW it would be Ralish doing the deployments instead. With Ralishan air support and ground troops, the wars would likely have ended much quicker since Ralish is larger than Nigeria alone, but because I want to be desperately poor, I will say that it ended in the same way. After the war, there was, both in RL and in AMW, a huge number of ex-combatants living in poverty, as well as the general people who had nothing. It was a natural breeding ground for communism. So, I’m going to say that the USAR was born in 2006 when a charismatic Sierra Leonine from the Kroo Bay slums around Freetown managed to convince both governments to combine. The man, who I have yet to name, is corrupt as the next African dictator, but he honestly wants what is best for his country and his people. Right now Sierra Leone has a high growth rate, not sure about Liberia, so the combined USAR, I’m going to say it is somewhere in the range of 6-7%. That stems from investment by African powers instead of European like in the real world, as well as greatly enhanced mining, fishing and agricultural industries.

So, it’s a hellhole, but it has potential to just be a heckhole.

Lemme add Papua New Guinea, Namibia (SW. Africa) and Madagascar.

I would like to add Botswana, Tanzania and Somaliland.

History:
1991: South Africa decides to consolidate it's control of Southwest Africa mounting a massive campaign to eradicate the SWAPO. While engaged with defeating the SWAPO militants in SW. Africa, Botswana and several other nations declare war on South Africa. Enfuriated President Forrester sends a strike force into the several nations and after a brutal invasion utilizing patartroopers and air support the defending nations fall quickly.

Land Area:
South Africa: 1,221,037 km² / 471,443 sq mi
Tanzania: 945,087 km² / 364,898 sq mi
Namibia: 825,418 km² / 318,696 sq mi
Madagascar: 587,041 km² / 226,597 sq mi
Botswana: 600,370 km² / 224,606 sq mi
Somaliland: 176,210 km² / 68,035 sq mi

Total Land Area: 4,335,163 km² / 1,674,545 sq mi

Population
Tanzania: 37,849,133
Botswana: 1,639,833
Madagascar: 19,448,815
Namibia (SW Africa): 1,820,916
South Africa: 43,700,000
Somaliland: 3,500,000

Total Population: 106,958,697

Edit: I will not be claiming Papua New Guinea or the Solomon Islands.

China - Now available in stores! (Ad)

I should mention that most of china is available to claim right now, I'm only holding onto a small portion of southern china. With Corbournne setting up a Japanese claim, new RPers are wanted for mainland China!

The issue of Japan and Formosa

Firstly, a brief history of my revised claim (see attachment for map). In the 19th century Britain was granted much of southern china following a 30 year war with the Qing dynasty which resulted in the formation of a British colony in China that rivalled her American holdings.

The Qing dynasty was overthrown and the Republic of China was formed. However after fighting the communists and the Japanese the nationalists were defeated. The nationalists retreated into British China, a move which was welcomed by the British as WW2 had just concluded and Britain lacked the capacity to defend Southern China against a Communist invasion. In the late 1970s Southern China was granted dominion status (rather like NZ or Australia in RL).

As for Formosa more specifically : The island was claimed by the Japanese, the P.R Chinese, and the nationalists alike. To support a nationalist claim would have incited a communist invasion and possibly prolonged conflict with a still-powerful Japan, and Britain had its hands full at the time with independence movements in India. Thus Britain effectively handed Formosa's fate to negotiations between the USQ and Japan.

Hm, interesting new China. Have to catch up on this later. East Asia's going to be fun, again, methinks. Eventually.

Note on Quinntonia/America, I think that Quinntonia has pretty much replaced America from the get-go, though Q. of course can tell you about the differing colonial history better than I could.

SC, out of curiosity, Somaliland? A bit remote from the rest, but I assume you have some reason behind it (which I may have missed, having too little time to re-read fully).

On BG...

Bamn, still having trouble settling! I'm quite liking the idea of playing a sort of alliance of smaller nations in the Igovian bloc. East Germany and Czechoslovakia works pretty well for me, as I like the idea of the Beddgelen Democratic Republic, which fits nicely on East Germany, and Czechoslovakia is just... what's next to it.

I could possibly move it to Hungary and Romania, as suggested by Cassanos, but I'm struggling to get my head around it so easily. I'd probably have to totally wipe out the Hungarian and Romanian people and cultures, since I don't know enough about either to properly represent them at the moment. That would make us more Geletian than ever, which would probably be bad news for everyone else. But I'm willing to do it, if people favour that to the Beddgelen East Germany. Maybe we could be in a state of perpetual conflict with Russia over Moldova...

I have been thinking that maybe I shouldn't totally abandon India. Perhaps just Sri Lanka could sign up to the Communist Contract Organisation, and consequently receive a modest influx of Geletians, keeping the idea of Celtic India just about alive, and keeping me involved in Asian affairs.

I think one or two European adjacent territories and Sri Lanka in the Communist Contract Organisation, as the Indian Soviet Commonwealth, officially independent but practically rather excessively influenced by the European Celts, with middle income economies strong enough to keep us kicking without really representing full intercontinental power works for me. Perhaps in time I'd convince other players to sign up to the Contract Organisation, and the degree to which the Geletians influence their nations would be, well, largely up to them.

So, now I must figure out... Sri Lanka and East Germany & Czechoslovakia, or Sri Lanka and some combination of East European possibly Balkan states? Damn it, people have to stop giving me ideas! I can't make decisions to save my life.

Maybe Bulgaria-Romania neck of the woods makes some sense, with the Geletians being an off-shoot of the Galatians, and possibly thinking about a return to Ancyra et cetera, now crawling with Turks :)

Oh, I don't think Lav's following us, this time. He's got something else going on.

Sigh, already gone over my time at the internet cafe.

Anyone have a link to the off site-forum?

Hi, head to the region of "A modern world". There's a long link there.

Or click this text (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?).

Alrighty, then, time to post this bloody claim up…

-GEOGRAPHY-

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7679/spyramwnewbm3.gif

Spyr looks to be a complicated beast, as geography goes... gone is Korea's imaginary twin, which at the very least means you lot can plan your invasions using Google Earth.

In a general sense, this claim envisions Spyr as a 'greater Manchuria' of sorts, encompassing portions of the Russian Far East and northern China. More specifically in terms of provinces and prefectures, it would take from RL China the territories of Heilongjiang, Jilin, Liaoning, Hebei, Beijing, Tianjin, and the Northeastern half of Inner Mongolia (Hulunbuir, Tongliao, Hinggan, Chifeng, Xilin Gol),while from RL Russia it would borrow Primorsky Krai, Khabarovsk Krai (minus its two northernmost districts),the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, Amur Oblast, Sakhalin Oblast (minus the Kurils).

-POPULATION-

Heilongjiang: 38,170,000
Jilin: 27,090,000
Liaoning: 42,170,000
Hebei: 68,090,000
Beijing: 17,430,000
Tianjin: 10,240,000
Hulunbuir: 2,710,000
Tongliao: 3,028,419
Hinggan: 1,588,787
Chifeng: 4,480,000
Xilin Gol: 975,168
Primorsky Krai: 2,071,210
Khabarovsk Krai: 1,436,570*
Jewish Autonomous Oblast: 190,915
Amur Oblast: 902,844
Sakhalin Oblast: 546,695*
TOTAL: 221,120,608

*A little bit of a struggle locating reliable statistics for populations in the Kurils and northern Khabarovsk Krai means the total below is slightly higher than it ought be... hopefully I can dig those up

The Spyran population would be largely homogenous... peripheral minorities of Han Chinese, Drapoel, Mongols, and the like but with the vast majority of the population coming from Jurchen-Manchu (who would really be the Lyongese in this version of reality, I suppose) roots.

-GOVERNMENT-

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/2695/spyrflagpz6.jpg

Spyr is officially a People's Republic, though it has no truly national institutions, instead being administered through the auspices of the Strainist Party (making it a one-party state where Party membership equates with citizenship). On paper the Party is a democratic institution, but in practice power tends to concentrate amongst the elder members of the Party's Central Committee. The Party's Chairman is nominally head of state and responsible for vetting government decisions, but the man has been hobbled by old age and withdrawn from political decisionmaking.

-ECONOMY-

The Spyran economy could probably (autogestion aside) be best compared to that of RL South Korea in terms of production and per capita GDP... intensive agriculture funding development of industrial manufacturing, which in turn has funded development of a growing technology and electronics sector. Rising incomes and urbanisation, while signs of modern prosperity, also present a growing challenge as rural agricultural workers leave for more promising service-sector opportunities in the cities, and factory workers also face the challenge of competing with goods produced in states where labour costs are lower... rather than participating in international trade to accumulate capital for development, Spyr finds itself increasingly reliant on imports to satisfy basic consumption. Demand for petroleum in particular has forced the country to develop alternative sources of energy, adopting environmentalist policies favouring 'clean energy' and 'reduced emissions' in order to combat global climate change, though many involved with international environmentalism rightly accuse the country of offering more lip service than actual contributions, and the Spyran approach leans heavily on nuclear and hydroelectric power (with their own environmental problems) rather than more innovative technologies.

-HISTORY-

Spyr's roots stretch back to the second century BCE, when one of several loose regional states overcame its rivals to found a unified state known as the August Empire. The Empire's early centuries saw further expansion, as well as conflict with other regional powers such as China (under its Sui and then T'ang dynasties) and the Choson of Korea, eventually resulting in Spyr accepting status as a T'ang tributary, and abandonment of efforts to hold territory south of the Yalu. Further centuries saw the Empire suffer a series of successive military defeats at the hands of the Mongol peoples to the West, resulting in occupation of border territories and a state of near-vassalage to the Mongol Yuan dynasty which had emeged dominant in China. Instability brought about by Mongol losses attempting to invade Japan (including many Spyran ships and troops that had been conscripted into service) and the fall of the Yuan (along with the rest of the Mongol empire) shook the August Empire, and though the Empire recaptured territories annexed by the Yuan and switched its tributary relationship from the Yuan remnants in Mongolia to the newly-dominant Ming, it suffered from increasing internal divisions as regional officials became increasingly independent of central oversight. The August Empire suffered several defeats at the hands of the resurgent Mongolian peoples who would go on to found the Qing dynasty, and August troops were conscripted into service as the Qing advanced south into China and east into Korea. When the August Emperor perished without a designated heir in the early 17th Century, several claimants emerged to try and take the title. Initially, these remained Qing tributaries, administering their provincial powerbases and warring against each other. The arrival of European powers in the region, particularly Russia, weakened Qing control and led to local warlords accepting sponsorship from foreign powers, opening trade opportunities and granting leases of land and ports. As Japan began its emergence onto the world stage, it too became involved in the country, intervening directly in the 1930s to establish several puppet republics led by Japanese-backed warlords. Resistance continued throughout the 1930s and ‘40s, first against the armies of warlords who would not bow to the Japanese, followed by guerilla resistance in the countryside. Access to the region’s rich resources remained limited by instability, while occupation of Spyr and Korea consumed a significant quantity of Japanese manpower and resources, men and funds which might be needed to defend Japan itself as the Quinntonians advanced across the Pacific to liberate the East Indies and retake the Philippines. Declining harvests brought on by war and bad weather put further strain on the territory, and the decision was eventually made to withdraw Japanese troops.

Local warlords struggled on for several years, continuing to battle against each other for control of the country. Without IJA troops to bolster their strength, they proved to be ineffective combatants, and peasant revolts increased in number until they culminated in 1948 when a revolution swept the former August Empire and saw the founding of the People’s Republic of Spyr.

The early days of the PRS were marked by the struggle to reform agricultural production and the education system, while strengthening the nation against the threat of foreign imperialists. Thousands of Spyran troops fought against the Japanese in Korea, to push them back from the Yalu and preserve the Choson People’s Republic, and the political rhetoric of the time roared with talk of impending revolution across the globe. This attitude faded, first from policy and then (almost) from language, as years past and a sometimes-brutal policy of rushed economic development pulled the country into a more prosperous period.

-INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS-

The People’s Republic of Spyr is the largest, and wealthiest, of the world’s socialist powers, and considers itself to be the rightful leader amongst global leftist movements. Given its sometimes-overbearing demeanor, and lack of progress towards widespread revolution under its guidance, many of its supposed comrades do not accept this claim.

Seeking prosperity through trade, the PRS has pursued friendly relations with the free-market democracies of the ‘West’, led by Britain and Quinntonia. When the USQ and CPRD entered into conflict, Spyr attempted to maintain a neutral position, attempting with little success to encourage Quinntonian withdrawal and Drapoel restraint… the matter continues to cause difficulty in Spyr-Quinntonian (and Spyr-Drapoel) relations.

Ideologically, the PRS advocates the overthrow of imperial powers such as Tsarist Russia and Imperial Japan, and both remain military threats along the Spyran border. However, though Anti-Japanese rhetoric remains strong, the Spyrans do not match words with deeds.

-NOTES AND ISSUES-

Finally put it up here… the geographic claim has been sitting around since we first started the process, so at this point I think its bumping into a few other claims. The core of it is greater Manchuria, which seemed the only way to get rid of the non-existent peninsula the country occupied previously. My only concern centers on inclusion of Hebei and the two major cities it encircles. This is a significant chunk of population, and while it still ends up being a reduction from the Strainist total in pre-rebirth AMW, it’s quite a bit higher than was the population of the Lyong peninsula, and the territory lies outside what would be traditionally defined as ‘greater Manchuria’. Cutting it out would leave a population of about 125 million, but including it produces a state large enough to manage being leftist head-honcho and to have rotated two million troops through Dra-pol in the ‘50s.

Hm, well it works for me, Spyr. Only takes a few million people away from Russia, and if you're happy to play a bigger Spyr that makes it all the easier for me to climb down from my former half-billion strength.

Talost, I think, might want to note that The Ralish hasn't claimed Nigeria. Niger, yes, but Nigeria no. The total claim only has about forty million people.

I think I've finally settled on a claim. No doubt somebody will say something to change my mind yet again, but maybe I'll have wandered off to make some mi goreng by then and won't notice :)

The Colombo Communist Contract Organisation

Sri Lanka, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania. These would exist as two nations, The Indian Soviet Commonwealth, and the Beddgelen Democratic Republic.

Populations are 21,128,773, 7,262,675, 9,930,915, 22,246,862 for a total of 60,569,225.

Despite Colombo being chosen as the site at which the contract organisation was signed, the BDR is a dominant partner in the relationship. It is peopled chiefly by the Geletian Celts, and I may base its minorities on the real Romanian, Hungarian, and Bulgarian people (as well as stealing some of their place names and other words based on what I consider to sound cool :) ). A complete history will be drawn up in time, but in essence the Geletians will have a few thousand years of fighting the Greek and Roman civilisations, followed by the Muslims, and always one another and their assorted neighbours through time. They'll be much the Geletians you saw last time around, but there'll be almost forty million of them in one place without relatively level-headed Indians to vote down their drunken would-be declarations of war and what not.

The rightwards swing taking place in the old BG will essentially always have been part of the status quo in the new BDR.

The economy will be modified Igovian, with some democratic elements, which will be stronger in rhetoric than practice, and will be worth around US$20,000 per capita or roughly $790 billion in total. Defence spending will be close to $50bln, rather high as a percentage of GDP, though nowhere near Drapoel levels.

The much-reduced ISC will have received a small Geletian population in recent years, but is less developed economy will have discouraged many. Per capita GDP will be around $8,500 for a total of almost $180 billion, and defence spending between $11 and 12 billion.

Growth in the ISC's economy will be at a fairly high rate, while the BDR will be struggling to maintain any momentum. Probably there will be a Sinhalese or Tamil nationalist movement against the CCCO and their nation's involvement in it, and on the other hand the BDR especially will be a major sponsor of international left-wing terrorism et cetera. Possibly we'll be involved in fighting in Moldova, depending whether anyone makes conflicting claims in the area.

And now I'm being nagged on the phone by my brother's girlfriend to come and save him from the Asian horde that is allegedly boring him to tears. I heard that there were strippers and an open bar, so these must be some amazingly boring Asians, but I'm off, anyway...

-GEOGRAPHY-

http://www.thecommonwealth.org/Shared_ASP_Files/UploadedFiles/%7B14C00262-BC35-478C-A0B5-DF4E54229D30%7D_Uganda.gif

A fairly simple nation in terms of geographic make up -

-POPULATION-

TOTAL: 31,367,972

Ethnic Makeup. Baganda 16.9%, Banyakole 9.5%, Basoga 8.4%, Bakiga 6.9%, Iteso 6.4%, Langi 6.1%, Acholi 4.7%, Bagisu 4.6%, Lugbara 4.2%, Bunyoro 2.7%, other 29.6%

-GOVERNMENT-

Uganda is nominally a Republic ruled through the executive and legislative branches of the government. President Museveni however is effectively emersed in a never ending power struggle with the National Assembly, with all involved being highly corrupt and self interested.

-ECONOMY-

Uganda has substantial natural resources, including fertile soils, regular rainfall, and sizable mineral deposits of copper, cobalt, gold, and other minerals. Agriculture is the most important sector of the economy, employing over 80% of the work force. Coffee accounts for the bulk of export revenues. Recently however, cocoa fields are becoming more common in the northern sector of the nation, which is effectively ruled by the Governor General as a private estate. Cocoa plants which are processed into cocaine have steadily been increasing in popularity, as the safety provided by General Avis makes this a lucrative trade to become involved in. However this still remains a backseat production, with copper, cobalt and gold mining taking the lead in Avis' various slave mines.

-HISTORY-

The colonial boundaries created by Britain to delimit Uganda grouped together a wide range of ethnic groups with different political systems and cultures. These differences prevented the establishment of a working political community after independence was achieved in 1962. The dictatorial regime of Aro Gahan was responsible for the deaths of some 300,000 opponents; guerrilla war and human rights abuses under Milto Grand claimed at least another 100,000 lives. The rule of Muro Muganda since 1999 has brought little stability, much power still being in the hands of various local officials.

-INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS-

Eternally bitter towards western powers over the years of subjugation as a colonial subject, Uganda has been thrown into a pit of isolationist despair - except for the criminal undertakings of the most powerful man in the country, General Avis, who continues to use the majority of the country as his personal back yard, with which to exploit and control. Exporting of resources produced through slavery, coffee, drugs and sex slaves make up the main portion of the nation's exports - while weapons, machinery and luxury goods are imported.

-NOTES AND ISSUES-

Still looking for a European power to claim former ownership of Uganda before independence. Also want to talk to other powers regarding their criminal organizations in their countries so as to begin some sort of 'diplomacy'.

Oh, hell. I'm already thigh-deep in African Imperialism. I'll go for it.

Korea

Well, much of our history is settled, then. Spyr's big enough to have come and helped out in the Korean War, Japan was the principle enemy, the USQ only came to Dra-pol (North Korea) in the 1980s, fought the Three Day War, established the enclave at Hamhung and Hungnam, and we're into the 1990s.

From there, though, the Reunification War is still pretty complicated, as we would have been fighting the USQ around the Hungnam perimeter, and Japan across the 38th parallel.

Still need to talk to Q about what he wants to do with Hamhung and Hungnam. He seems to have said both that he doesn't want to deal with it anymore, and that he doesn't want to withdraw, so I'm somewhat confused.

I might revise the border in the south a bit. As Spyr, I think, mentioned, keeping the liberation of Seoul is probably worthwhile, but I might pull the border north of where it was just to make things simpler at the restart. The border used to run through Andong in Gyeongsangbuk-do. I may revise it so that we only kept hold of Seoul, Incheon, Gyeonggi-do, and Gangwon-do.

I think that would be about 29,330 square kilometres, but the population still bewilders me since estimates for Seoul, Incheon, and Gyeonggi-do typically over-lap due to the national capital area takin in towns in the neighbouring province, which just seems ridiculously confusing. Gangwon-do's population estimates all seem to be eighteen years out of date, too, so that doesn't help.

Still, it's probably the bulk of the South Korean population, with as many people in and around Seoul as in all of North Korea, and I think more than ten million in Gyeonggi-do.

Still, a million-some people will be lost to the Hamhung enclave if that ends up existing at all.

Well, open for more thoughts. And what's the status of Japan's nuclear programme? I think it was mentioned, but I'm rushing. If Japan wants, he can be responsible for the nuclear strike that stopped the advance in the Reuinification War, but we'll see..

Korea

Well, much of our history is settled, then. Spyr's big enough to have come and helped out in the Korean War, Japan was the principle enemy, the USQ only came to Dra-pol (North Korea) in the 1980s, fought the Three Day War, established the enclave at Hamhung and Hungnam, and we're into the 1990s.

From there, though, the Reunification War is still pretty complicated, as we would have been fighting the USQ around the Hungnam perimeter, and Japan across the 38th parallel.

Still need to talk to Q about what he wants to do with Hamhung and Hungnam. He seems to have said both that he doesn't want to deal with it anymore, and that he doesn't want to withdraw, so I'm somewhat confused.

I might revise the border in the south a bit. As Spyr, I think, mentioned, keeping the liberation of Seoul is probably worthwhile, but I might pull the border north of where it was just to make things simpler at the restart. The border used to run through Andong in Gyeongsangbuk-do. I may revise it so that we only kept hold of Seoul, Incheon, Gyeonggi-do, and Gangwon-do.

I think that would be about 29,330 square kilometres, but the population still bewilders me since estimates for Seoul, Incheon, and Gyeonggi-do typically over-lap due to the national capital area takin in towns in the neighbouring province, which just seems ridiculously confusing. Gangwon-do's population estimates all seem to be eighteen years out of date, too, so that doesn't help.

Still, it's probably the bulk of the South Korean population, with as many people in and around Seoul as in all of North Korea, and I think more than ten million in Gyeonggi-do.

Still, a million-some people will be lost to the Hamhung enclave if that ends up existing at all.

Well, open for more thoughts. And what's the status of Japan's nuclear programme? I think it was mentioned, but I'm rushing. If Japan wants, he can be responsible for the nuclear strike that stopped the advance in the Reuinification War, but we'll see..

If it helps, Wiki put the Seoul National Capital Area at 23,000,000, and that includes Seoul, Gyeonggi-do, and Incheon.

I'd say that Japan tried to keep pace with the USQ/Russia? with regard to nukes, and perhaps they tested their first one in 1952, with results similar to initial American tests in the 1940's. Japan, having never experienced the catastrophe of a nuclear explosion, had no problems threatning use against Dra-pol and, possible Spyr. In the Reunification War, if leadership in Tokyo saw any chance of Japan losing, they would order a nuclear strike, so it is very possible that Japan would be responsibile for the strike on Seoul.

I'll wait to map out and further explain my claim until the USQ and I come to some kind of agreement on Formosa.

Oh, hell. I'm already thigh-deep in African Imperialism. I'll go for it.
Excellent. Next order of business. Is there a thread encompassing all criminal organizations in AMW? If not, would it be alright if I created one?

I guess I'll introduce myself, I've been playing on NS for about a year now and RPed on other real world simulated sites, and lastly I'm an International Studies Major at Baylor University concentrating on the South West Asia and Africa. I'm pretty interested in what you guys are proposing so I'll give you guys a background on my roleplaying experience. Most of my experience is in 70s and 80s world sims. I've played the following real world countries: Rhodesia, South Africa, East Germany, West Germany, Germany, France, Czechoslovakia, United States, United Kingdom, New Zealand, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan, and Israel.

Here is one of the sites I RPed as East Germany on:

http://newcoldwar2010.invisionplus.net/index.php?mforum=newcoldwar2010&act=idx

I would like to play as South Africa for you guys. But I've got a few questions, do you RP on a seperate site or on this one?

Here's what I've done on my factbook so far. Explains Formosa from a Chinese perspective.

Profile

Population : 191 million
GDP per capital : $29,500 (USD)
Currency : New Chinese dollar
Literacy : 99%
Economy composition:
agriculture: 1.5%
industry: 25.2%
services: 73.3% (2006)
Main trading partners:
PR China 20%
Quintonnia 19%
Corbournne 15%
Greater Britain 7%

History:
In 1855 after a prolonged and bitter conflict between the Qing and the British, the Qing granted Britain several provinces in southern china in perpetuity under an unequal treaty - Britain would gain Fujian, Guangzhou, Guangxi, Hainan, and other associated islands (Macau, Hong Kong). It was an enormous victory for the British and gave them a presence in Asia far greater than their American colonies.

The Qing dynasty was wracked by internal troubles until their fall in 1911. The Republic of China succeeded the Qing dynasty but began fighting the communist insurrection soon after. Throughout this time large numbers of refugees crossed the border into British China. The nationalists stopped the civil war to form a united front against the Courbournne empire in WW2.

Following WW2 and an "honorable peace" between Quintonnia and Corbournne, the civil war resumed, and the nationalists were forced to retreat to British China. They were welcomed at the time as Britain did not have sufficient military forces to repel a communist invasion after WW2. In the late 50s however demands for self-rule and representation began to grow and the nationalist party was revived as a political movement. There was also popular outrage against the British and Quintonnians for not backing a chinese claim for Taiwan, which today remains an issue of contention towards Corbournne. Even today yearly anti-Corbournne rallies continue to take place. The issue has not been helped by discoveries of oil and gas in the region which are claimed by both sides.

In 1980 Governor MacLehose implemented major democratic reforms which granted the British Chinese the right to vote for a legislative council.
The PRC was outraged and threatened to invade. In response Margaret Thatcher, the British Prime minister at the time deployed military forces to British China. War was averted, but MacLehose's reforms lead the way in establish a blueprint of democratic rule. Issues of chinese reunification and national defence were also raised, and the nationalist movement threw its weight behind the then-underground independence movement.

In 1987 British China became a Commonwealth realm (officially the Dominion of China), again much to the PRC's dismay. The National party won the election and promptly launched a major series of military exercises with purchased equipment from Britain intended to force the PRC to back down.

If it helps, Wiki put the Seoul National Capital Area at 23,000,000, and that includes Seoul, Gyeonggi-do, and Incheon.

I'd say that Japan tried to keep pace with the USQ/Russia? with regard to nukes, and perhaps they tested their first one in 1952, with results similar to initial American tests in the 1940's. Japan, having never experienced the catastrophe of a nuclear explosion, had no problems threatning use against Dra-pol and, possible Spyr. In the Reunification War, if leadership in Tokyo saw any chance of Japan losing, they would order a nuclear strike, so it is very possible that Japan would be responsibile for the strike on Seoul.

I'll wait to map out and further explain my claim until the USQ and I come to some kind of agreement on Formosa.

Does that really include all of Gyeonggi-do? I thought it was just some peripheral towns et cetera. Still, I suppose it doesn't matter, if I just assume that it's 23 million plus up to 2 million in Gangwon-do, and if there are really more people in Gyeonggi-do we'll just assume they fled south.

In the original RP, many people fled south ahead of the advancing People's Army, but that was into the newly-democratic ROK, backed by the USQ and Indian National Union (LRR when his claim was bigger). Probably in this revised reality people won't have known what to do, stay and face the northern Communists or flee and face the Japanese Imperialists!

All right, CIA factbook estimate for DPRK's population: 23,479,089
Half-arsed estimate for Drapoel South Korea: 25,000,000
Half-arsed estimate for Hamhung-Hungnam enclave: 1.2something million
Total estimate Korean peninsula: 72,711,933

Rounded off estimates for Korea: 47million CPRD; 1.4million Hamhung enclave; 24.25million Japanese Korea.

So Japan has 151.5million people in Japan and Korea and 22.92 in Taiwan? 174.4ish million in total. Not as big as the Quinntonian enemy I had before, but far too close for comfort! Should be interesting.

The Reuinification War, then, happened a fair few years back, possibly the 1990s but I'm not sure, with a Drapoel advance across the 38th parallel into Japanese Korea. Using massive artillery barrages from HARTS on the border, hovercraft amphibious assaults, light aircraft troop insertion, and major tunnel-warfare to rapidly encircle Seoul and hold it to ransom under thousands of artillery tubes, the Drapoel achieved an early victory. Some South Koreans joined the new Unified People's Army to resist the Japanese occupation, while others fled the Communists. General Hozaro's UPA Assault Division meanwhile was making rapid progress down the east coast towards Busan, until, alarmed by the whole affair and reeling from the fall of Seoul, the Japanese employed a tactical nuclear strike against Hozaro's vanguard, which, along with heavy aerial bombing and marine gunnery, stalled the Drapoel advance and lead to a new stalemate, south of the former DMZ.

Time's almost up, but it's starting to make sense to me, once more. Hurrah!

The joining of Iceland and Canada is more based on economics that true culture. Fishing and whaling being on of the bases of the Icelandic economy similar to the far eastern provinces of Canada where fishing, and whaling were/are big economic staples.

Whaling is illegal in Canada. Except for a dozen or so that are culled by teh aborigials in controlled hunts each ear for perosnal/cultural uses. I don't buy this claim at all.

Since the question was asked. I'm assuming all RL soviet/russian military for Kievskaya Rus as well as international sales of such equipment.

I would like to see you take this claim from having the Tsardom never fall, to a resurgence. Not because I played such an empire, but rather because the more I think bout it, the more that I feel that we definately NEED the Soviet Union around until at least the 70's, if not the 80's. Whaddya say?

As for me, I am not willing to be written into any Dra-poel history. Seriously. Make Gurg do it. Please tell me that mine is over. Just so there is no confusion, I don't want the RPed history of AMW that included any of the interactions between me and Dra-poel, to exist. IF it had went the way that it had in AMW, we would never withdraw. I don't want it to ever have occured.

Also, I will totally drop Mexico, but I would like to establish perhaps a claim over Canada instead, it makes more sense, as a Commonwealth Anglo nation anyways.

Also, I am in no way trying to get parity with anyone, just trying to make an interesting power that fits my needs/interests.

I also think that we need to keep as much of WW2, with peices of the Cold War intact in order to get any kind of sense to this world.


WWJD
Amen.

An idea was suggested to me that I'm working on right now along with my factbook. I really really don't want a soviet union. The idea is that the white army won the civil war and re-established the monarchy. I'll include the details in my factbook. I'm interested to hear your ideas on why the soviet union history is so important. I'm aware of the extent that the soviet union shaped 20th century history, but I'm not interested in playing that.

POPULATION-

Japan: 127,250,000
Korea: 24,250,000
Taiwan: 22,920,000
TOTAL: 174,420,000

The population is almost completely homogenous in regards to the individual geographic areas. In Japan, there are Japanese. In Korea, there are Koreans. In Taiwan, there are Chinese/Taiwanese. The break in this cycle is broken by the large amounts of Japanese troops present in both Korea and Taiwan.

-GOVERNMENT-

Japan is official a Constitutional Monarchy, but as much power resides with the Army and Navy as with the politicians. A twisted, albeit interesting balance of power is directed by the Military, the Emperor, and the Politicians.

-ECONOMY-

The Economy of Japan is characterized by low overall taxation and overwhelmingly private sector economy compared to most Western countries, high economic freedom, close government-industry cooperation for economic growth, emphasis on science and technology, and strong work ethic. Extraordinary relationship-based—rather than productive—arrangements in the financial sector and employment, along with relatively shallow international competition in domestic markets, are among widely acknowledged causes behind the protracted lost decade in the 1990s. Slowly progressing reforms took pace in the mid-2000s and higher growth rates were seen after 2005.

Japan is even wealthier than in RL, at the expense of Korea and Taiwan. Money which was historically used to build up the two was instead spent on Japan due to cheap, and even slave, labor. Korea and Taiwan, therefore, are much more similar to current African economies rather than the bustling capitalist ones of RL. However, Japan has recently reduced its restrictions on Korean and Taiwanese-run bussinesses, and the overall quality of life in the two places is improving.

-HISTORY-

Divergence from RL begins with the survival of Admiral Yamamoto. Upon returning to Japan to recover from his injuries, he sees that Japanese forces are simultaneously being pushed out of both the Dutch East Indies and Burma. He implores the government to sure for an "honorable peace," before Japan's Empire is dismantled at the hands of the Quintonnian Government. His words carry enough weight to influence the Emperor in his favor. Peace is sought, and Japan surrenders Indochina and the Phillipines to the Allies. They also remove their forces in China, intent on maintaining their hold on Korea and Taiwan. Formosa gives them no trouble, but Korea constantly rises against their Japanese overlords, resulting in Northern independence. The line bordering their two nations is set at the 38th parallel.

For Reunification War see: Dra-pol's History.

Japan, while first isolationist in the years following the Second World War, has significantly opened up over the past decades with Akihito in charge. Japan, while still authoritarian, is a much more open society than that of sixty years ago.

-INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS-

The Empire of Japan is fervently anti-communist/socialist, and advocates the overthrow of such governments. It abides by the "free market, free people" dogma. Its relations with the West, while still cool at best, have significantly improved over the last two decades. Likewise, tolerance towards communism can be found in some small circles of the Japanese Government.

However, Japan does not recognize the legitimacy of any other governments on the Korea Peninsula. No relations are maintained with Dra-pol, as Japan still lays claim to Korea. State-sponsored terrorism by the North Koreans does not lead one to believe that the two governments will reconcile in the near future.

An idea was suggested to me that I'm working on right now along with my factbook. I really really don't want a soviet union. The idea is that the white army won the civil war and re-established the monarchy. I'll include the details in my factbook. I'm interested to hear your ideas on why the soviet union history is so important. I'm aware of the extent that the soviet union shaped 20th century history, but I'm not interested in playing that.

Well then...can we have an extremely left-wing/communist influenced monarchy, at least up to the 70s? I mean...communist ideals have influenced the world so much...

Hi Corbournne, Dra-pol, and Spyr,

I've read all the factbooks so far and it seems everything will work out fine historically. I think we're missing something though as we really need a PR China to RP with.

I'm willing to be caretaker in order to RP an isolationist PRC, but anything else is too full on. It would be ideal for a full-time RPer to take over.

So Asia is largely ready for RPing to commence?

I guess I'll introduce myself, I've been playing on NS for about a year now and RPed on other real world simulated sites, and lastly I'm an International Studies Major at Baylor University concentrating on the South West Asia and Africa. I'm pretty interested in what you guys are proposing so I'll give you guys a background on my roleplaying experience. Most of my experience is in 70s and 80s world sims. I've played the following real world countries: Rhodesia, South Africa, East Germany, West Germany, Germany, France, Czechoslovakia, United States, United Kingdom, New Zealand, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan, and Israel.

Here is one of the sites I RPed as East Germany on:

http://newcoldwar2010.invisionplus.net/index.php?mforum=newcoldwar2010&act=idx

I would like to play as South Africa for you guys. But I've got a few questions, do you RP on a seperate site or on this one?

Hi,

We do our RPing in International Incidents. I'm happy to approve your claim based on your RP sample right away, I'm not sure if there are any other claims on South Africa though. What are your plans for S.A?

I'm a bit worried about the way Q's looking at this, from top to bottom, really.

If you take Drapoel-Quinntonia relations out, as both Dra-pol and Spyr have already said, Dra-pol hardly makes sense, and may as well have stayed in SE Asia, which would also mess with Spyr, and as a further knock-on probably others as well.

Surely, "We would never withdraw" would soon turn into, "Oh, we really don't have any choice" anyway. 'cept more futile martyrdom.

I very much get the feeling that, if 'Gurg does it', nobody in the new AMW is going to give a damn about the USQ. The Beddgelens certainly won't be taking the Quinntonians seriously. And that won't fit too well with there being four hundred or more million of them with continental domination and a far-flung empire. If someone tries to liberate or annex the Philippines, will that end any differently to Korea?

I'm not sure if we need a USSR, either. So far I don't see why we would. Nor do I see why Canada and Iceland couldn't be claimed together except because Q now wants Canada for himself.

This is starting to look bad, mate.

I'm a bit worried about the way Q's looking at this, from top to bottom, really.

If you take Drapoel-Quinntonia relations out, as both Dra-pol and Spyr have already said, Dra-pol hardly makes sense, and may as well have stayed in SE Asia, which would also mess with Spyr, and as a further knock-on probably others as well.

Surely, "We would never withdraw" would soon turn into, "Oh, we really don't have any choice" anyway. 'cept more futile martyrdom.

I very much get the feeling that, if 'Gurg does it', nobody in the new AMW is going to give a damn about the USQ. The Beddgelens certainly won't be taking the Quinntonians seriously. And that won't fit too well with there being four hundred or more million of them with continental domination and a far-flung empire. If someone tries to liberate or annex the Philippines, will that end any differently to Korea?

I'm not sure if we need a USSR, either. So far I don't see why we would. Nor do I see why Canada and Iceland couldn't be claimed together except because Q now wants Canada for himself.

This is starting to look bad, mate.



Come on, give me some credit here. The claim for Iceland/Canada made no sense, and I noted that rigth off the bat. Also, it was just rattled off as one of the many Earths claims that we have already said no to. I have always really wanted Canada, and I am willing to explore a "the Canadian colonies fought in the War of the Colonial Rebellion" thing. I am a Canadian after all, it is pretty natural for me to want the motherland.
I included Mexico in my claim only because I had in AMW, I am not really attached to it, and am willing to drop it, no prob. Already done.
USQ being taken seriously? I don't know what that means. If it means that it would be a thin pretense for hostilities, and in this incarnation it wouldn't be, I don't really care. I don't see why I should have to be forced into a completely AMW RPed situation when I don't desire to do that RP. It holds no interest for me, and just isn't fun. And me having to do every part of the RP, accept all of the things that happened in the old AMW, but somehow find a reason to justify a withdrawl, just doesn't make sense to me. I really don't see that Hamhung ever existing is all that important to Dra-poel, Spyr, or BG. I really think that they all can have histories and RPs that are amazing without it. Listen, I am only changing one minor event from AMW history to get us here. We weren't in the area when the refugees were sunk. Didn't even know about it. Thus, Gerry Westgaard didn't go ahsore with a small armed team, there wasn't an accidental shooting of a Quinntonian soldier, and the Three Days War didn't occur. I don't see the problem.
And having us suddenly withdraw without a Herculean affort making the Three Years War look like a side-show is and never will be an option. Or foriegn policy since the Three Days War has been driven by Dra-poel, everything we do is tempered by it in some way. That is where I think we were going in AMW when it went to pot. I was going to take on Dra-pol one last time for all of the marbles, as my sianara thread(s) before I went off and essentially did exactly what we are doing now.
The whole plan with my claim as it stands now, is essentially to gove me the USQ that I love playing, without the distraction of the other player to keep up, and allow me to get involved with world affairs as I see fit. I am planning to be far more isolationist, especially given that I don't have to go all over the world looking for support in Korea, and would like to do more diplomatic/domestic RPs while just reacitng to world events as things take form.

I hope that my play to this point has shown that I am not just one more person that would do arbitrary things to mess things up for people. I just want a claim that is fun. I have fallen in love with USQ. My original claim for USQ when it was founded included the Phillipines with the US holding onto its colonies, and I am a Canadian. Hell, I am even willing to drop the whole Phillipines thing, if that is troubling, but I was hoping that I could stay involved in SE Asia that way. Would someone please explain to me what I am doing to uspet everyone so badly?


As for Russia, I do think that having the Communist influence is incredibly important to world history, it was/is so influecnial that to imagine a world witout it is just nigh impossible. I don't want you to play anything you don;t want to, so I am just suggesting that the Tsars took back over after/during the fall of the Soviet Union. That means that we get our history, you get a fun history of being able to rally the people against the "horrible genocides of Stalin" that surely would not happen under your benevolent Tsar, and you get your Tsardom. Everone wins.

Well, I can't say I'm not a little disappointed to hear that the most important events in AMW and the entire history of the nationally formative CPRD-USQ relationship was no fun... if I wasn't enjoying it, Dra-pol wouldn't be, "Choson".

But, if Q doesn't want to do it anymore, there's not much we can do about that.

I'm going to have to ask if the Romans can step up and take the place of the Christian interloper, because without it I absolutely can not be arsed with Dra-pol and AMW. It would all just make the last few years seem completely pointless.

With Italy, France, and Spain combined (is that right?) they'd probably be strong enough to take Q's place, and Christian enough for that to be a central issue of contention. What about it? Willing to have a history including the landing of Roman missionaries on the east coast of Dra-pol, leading to cultural misunderstandings, the Three Day War ending with the creation of the Roman Dra-pol enclave of about 1.4 million people including many Drapoel converts to Christianity (possibly the first significant Christian community in Korea, given the on-going imperial Japanese domination of the south), and an on-going blood-feud and tense stand-off with the Unified People's Army (which is bigger than the population of the enclave)?

I don't believe there's any point to the USSR, either. This isn't the real world. There's no reason that Russia even has to exist (though it's going to, but, you know, lots of countries won't). If you can't imagine a world without it, you're either not trying hard enough, or perhaps trying too hard!

I was briefly worried about military tech, because, for example, many Drapoel tanks have obvious Soviet lineage, but BG's got that covered. Dra-pol is going to make do with copied IJA tankettes until the 1980s, where after it is going to receive Beddgelen help to produce Russian-inspired designs. Another example of why we don't need the USSR, and in fact some things work better without it. Apparently, the Beddgelens still get their Principality, but this time it's a Tsarist Russian satellite that accordingly receives Russian armaments, before having a Communist revolution and handing out Russian-bloc military secrets to the international left. Et voila, lefties in T-62s!

Kievskaya Rus, version 1.1

Population
214,845,000

Area
18,95,490 Km2

GDP
$2,694,303 million
Per Captia
$12,540


Government
Absolute Monarchy
Capital - Kiev
Sovereign - Tsar Pyotr IV (Pyotr Anton Steravovich)

Economy
GDP - $2.612 Trillion
Per Captia - $12,571

History
1918-1922
In 1918 Russia was locked civil war, torn apart by the Red and White armies and under threat of German invasion from the west. Thousands died every day of starvation, disease and as casualties of combat. In the cold days of October, word began to travel around; the white army, the enemy of the working class was under new leadership. A man the priests of the churches where hailing as a holy leader, a saviour for all Russian. Empowered by an effective propaganda campaign and with support of land owners, industrialist and the church and foreign powers General Mikhail Steravovich had united the leaders of the white army and set up a stronghold in the city of Kiev. For the next three years the White army would gain more and more support and in March of 1922 after 3 months of fighting in the streets of Petrograd, the last stronghold of the red army, victory was declared and in August of that year Mikhail was crowned the new Tsar in his capital city of Kiev by the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church.
1922-1928
The 1920's saw Tsar Mikhail's newly declared Empire of Kievskaya Rus slowly rebuild industry and strengthen the power of the Monarchy to truly absolute. When Mikhail died in 1928, just days before his heir was to be crowned tsar, his first son Prince Alexander was found dead on the floor of his room. When his second son Prince Yakov made a claim to the throne, suspicion that he was responsible for Alexander's murder spread though out the land. Never the less Yakov was crowned Tsar.
1928-1959
Yakov, unlike his father was sympathetic towards the communists and after a few years spent replacing the government with his own men, he began a campaign of national reorganization. The peasants communities were re-organized into communes and polices of guaranteed employment and equal wages brought hope to the working class. Yakov systematically stripped the nobles and land owners of their rights and introduced his planned economy. Yakov's ambition for development came at the cost of millions of lives as his fund raising methods included stripping whole regions of all money, crops and valuables to pay for development, leaving millions with out food, heat or any means to a living . After WWII Yakov rebuilt much of eastern Europe into puppet states and as relations with western powers grew more and more hostile spending on defence and development of nuclear weapons made Kieveskaya Rus into the most militarized country of the 1950's. Yakov died in 1959 after 31 years in power.
1959-1972
His third son Nikolaj followed his ideas of planned economy and a communal working class and in the 1960's Kieveskaya Rus become the first country to put a man into space. In 1972 Nikolaj succumb to Alzheimer's and his brother (Yakov's fourth son) Yevgeny took power.
1972-1989
Yevgeny is now known at Yevgeny the week as under his rule in the 1970's and 80's Kieveskaya Rus entered a downward spiral leading to an economic crash in 1988. His attempts save his empire included re-establishing the noble class and later attempting to transition to a free market economy. In 1985 Georgia and Uzbekistan declared independence soon followed by Kazakhstan and the other south western provinces the next year. The civil war for reunification that followed only fuelled the Empires decline and in 1989 Tsar Yevgeny died in a plane crash while returning from a trip to Cuba. Upon his death Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania declared independence. Leaving no heir of his own, the grandson of prince Alexander, Anton Steravovich claimed the title as rightful Tsar of Kievskaya Rus and was the first Tsar since Mikhail to be crowned by the by the Patriarch of Kiev.
1989-2005
Tsar Anton became the emperor of a ruined nation. The country was in a mess, separatist states fought for independence, free market economy lead to huge wage disparities and valuable resources being sold over seas while they remained financially out of reach at home. The communes were collapsing as most went bankrupt and the few that did make profit were swarmed with out of work peasants seeking employment. Men stopped tilling the fields and instead went in search of betting paying jobs in mines and factories only to find them all laying people off and shutting down production. As food reserves became critically low Anton ordered every man back to their commune, turned their administration over to the nobles and re-institued serfdom, any who did not comply would be executed or sent to labour camps. This caused an international backlash that threatened to bring western nations down on the Tsarist regime. On June 15 1993 Tsar Anton ordered the detonation of a 3 stage 100 Megaton nuclear bomb directly above the north pole 1000 Km above the atmostphere, the blast could be seen even in day light from anywhere north of the 60th parallel. The next day Tsar Anton broadcast an address to the world that Kieveskaya Rus would be inviting other world powers to negotiate a second strategic arms reduction treaty. Along with the treaty on arms reduction, international delegates mediated a treaty that saw the southern separatist states given independence but reaffirmed Kieven authority over the Baltic states. With international disputes over nuclear weapons brought to the attention of the world again the serfdom of Kievskaya Rus dropped from the international agenda and the nobility once again had full control over the working population. Serfdom did not extend to the Baltic nations and border security was established to keep peasants from seeking refuge in the "free states". With control of the workers the Tsar was able to focus once again on rebuilding the nation and once the fields began producing again and the food crisis had ended Kieveskaya Rus' future began to look up.
2005-present. Tsar Anton died of complications after a liver transplant and his first son Pyotr Anton Steravovich became Tsar Pyotr IV. Pyotr's reign has been quiet and peaceful. He enjoys a high level of popularity the peasants and nobles and is strongly endorsed by the Orthodox Church. Lately his romance with the famous ballerina Rivka Rosonov has dominated the news more than his political moves. This came about after even Quinntonia's "people" magazine rated him the #1 "most desirable bachelor in the world".

At present Kievskaya Rus has been able to stay out of any direct international conflict, though they supply arms to many governments and factions that share the ideals of monarchy or are anti-western in nature. The Baltic nations continue to be a place of conflict as terrorist and rebels continue to challenge Kieven authority.
Practice of democracy even in a small group setting is discouraged and national elections are outlawed. Media is strictly state controlled to the point where there are towers that scramble international satellite broadcasts and foreign newspapers and magazines are outlawed. The world wide web is a privilege of the nobility and peasants are only given access to Kieven National Web, a national mirror of the www.
The state sponsored Orthodox Church records 70% of the population as baptized members with other christian churches accounting for 6%, Islam at 4% and Hindu and Buddhist accounting for less than 1% combined. Cults are illegal, there members imprisoned and their leaders are executed.

Military
Kievskaya Rus will use real world russian military and it's defence budget will be determined after I see what other player nations are doing.

Let me know what you think. I'm wondering if the reaction to the 1993 nuclear tests might not have gone as well as I'm assuming it did. Also, does this history satisfy the perceived need for USSR like communist power adequately? I've totally ignored the fact that Manchuria has been claimed and did not include anything about it in my history. Can I assume that Manchuria was not part of Russia at the start of the 20th century?
So I guess I should post this all on the off site forum?

On Manchuria, my assumption would be that the territory was probably Russian-dominated (with leasing of ports such as Vladivostok and Port Arthur from Russian-armed local warlords), if not outright annexed, from the 1700s until Japan extended its own influence over the area at the start of the 20th century.

On the matter of communism and its role in history, I'm not sure... inclusion of a 'communist' monarch seems a bit awkward to be honest. Truth be told, I'm not convinced there really is a need for it: the USSR had massive influence on modern history in reality, but if we wanted to roleplay life-as-we-know-it, there'd be no German/Indian Celts, no Spyr, and no clergy with veto power in Washington.

There are plenty of other changes which have a profound impact: the defeat of Japan, and the use of nuclear weapons in doing so, helped to shape the Cold War that followed. If nuclear weapons remain unused in war until a panicked Tokyo fires one off in Korea during the 90s, people will have a different view of them than in a reality where their power and horror have been demonstrated on an inhabited population center, for one.

But that's not a problem, really. Working out the history of the modern era without the USSR will probably take a lot of work, while using real history provides a bit of a crutch to save us some time and effort, but we've adapted to historical changes previously in AMW, and seem to be adapting to other significant changes at the present time, so we can certainly manage it, can't we?

I'm with Spyr and BG, to be honest. Also, sorry I haven't been around, my internet has been down since earlier this week. Um... in terms of communism, is there a reason that the People's Republic of China can't have risen on its own and acted as a statist/Communist nation for the past forty years? I mean, Mao was arguably just as bad as Stalin and had some very similar ideas, and China is a resource rich and highly populous country. Does anyone have a problem with this?

I would say that's a pretty good history and works well...I think it flows nicely as it is right now. I'll give you an AMW tick.

On another topic, I've been looking for a caretaker RPer for the P.R of China. Any takers? It's too big of a hole to be left unfilled.

I'm still pretty much in favour of KR's claim, too. Like Spyr, I don't think that attempting to shoehorn a sort of monarchist communism into Russia is really necessary, though I suppose it's up to you.

I'm sure that the People's Republic of Spyr is a big-enough faux-Communist power, especially given its superior economic status, anyway.

Kievskaya Rus, can we assume that my nation was briefly Tsarist-administered, during the closing stages of WWII and the immediate aftermath?

A quick overview of that claim:

It has finally settled on covering Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria (though none of those nations will ever have existed). 39.4 million people 440 thousand square kilometres, $788bln PPP GDP.

Up until the war, it existed as the Geletian Empire, or the Tetrachy of Geletia. It was very traditional in its composition, essentially a late iron-age civilisation that acquired some limited modern armament et cetera through trade or plunder.

Being unsure about our revised WWII history I can't say exactly what happened next, but essentially the Tetrachy was over-run by Tsar Yakov's forces, either by picking the wrong side in the war or by being regarded as an inferior ally that couldn't look after itself, which probably wouldn't have been unjustified. The myth of Polish cavalry charging German tanks would probably be over-shadowed by the reality of Geletian highland charges against enemy pillboxes!

In 1947 (I've gone for the 30th of December, because, well, I needed a date that year and thought I may as well go off Romania's republic, which was established that year, so it's easier to remember!) Russian forces pulled out, leaving behind Llewellyn Map Gelert and his Geletian Principality, destroying the Geletian Tetrachy much as the Romans did in Galatia. Llewellyn established the Geletian Orthodox Church and ruled Geletia as a satellite of Tsarist Russia until the May Revolution of 1982. Fittingly that happens under the watch of Yevgeny the Weak, and when Llewellyn has lost much of his youthful vigour.

The name Beddgelert is not used until the Communist era, as it means, literally, the Grave of Gelert, a pretty direct anti-monarchist statement!

So, Russia under Yakov occupies the Geletian Tetrachy during WWII, and in 1947 over-sees the establishment of an inferior partner in the Geletian Principality, which lasts until 1982 and the rise of Igovian Communism. Between '47 and '82, Russian military bases were probably hosted in Geletia, and the Geletians received Russian military technology to arm their forces.

I'm thinking that maybe Moldova was part of the Tetrachy, and Yakov forced Llewellyn to give it up to him as part of the deal to establish Llewellyn as Prince of the Geletians. Now it is the miserable front-line in on-going conflict between Tsarists and Communists, and perhaps of disputed status.

Whaddaya think?

As you can probably see, I'm getting pretty excited about this new BG, already :)

Seeing how I'm a noob and you prbly wont let me in i just wanna say sumthn. I had a nation created in sep 2006. It was deleted cause i went on vacation (in RL) and i forgot to set it to vacation mode. When i came back it had been deleted. So i had to make thise one.

Anyway if you let me in I'd like to claim Saudi Arabia. If not that then Eritea

Sorry if these have been claimed ( I may have read wrong)

Glad to hear that Nigeria hasn't been taken. Simplifies my factbook a bit, which I am working on, by the way. On a related note, any interested parties should look at Nigeria. One of the strongest economies in Africa, powerful military, good location, etc. Anyway, I wanted to get Skibereen and Ralish's opinions on something. What if we were to have Guinea be sort of "contested territory" between us? Obviously I would be no match for either of you by myself, so it would probably be grass-roots communists fighting for my side against the Dahomeys and the Ralish, who would probably be fighting each other as much as my semi-financed rebels. Thoughts?

EDIT: And yes, Saudi Arabia has been claimed, as has South Africa, by Doomingsland and Sovereign California respectively. I am unsure of the validity of their claims, though, so please ask around.

My apologies to those who've come to expect this from me, but, the more I think about it, the less I am comfortable with siting my nation on the Gujarati coast, at least until we work out just what is going on in India proper at the same time. I can't quite work out in my own mind a good reason why the Republic of Daman would continue to exist as an independent state stuck onto the side of the Republic of India.

So if it is alright with everyone, I'd like to move my state to Ceylon, provided of course BG doesn't still claim it. There is still the question of how the second world war would have worked-out for Britain in the case of a Portuguese Ceylon, but I think it is easier to explain next to an independent India.

To be honest I'm not the biggest fan of the communist idea. I'll probably keep the planned economy part though (not a full command economy). I think I'll talk it over with quinntonia before making the final call on it because of how important our 1950s-1970s histories are to each other. But either way, the Kieven government is in no way communist and by y2k communism is probably reject as much it would be in any democracy loving country.

So WWII.
I guess the easiest way to figure this out would be to declare who was an axis and who was an allied power.
Kievskaya Rus was allied with Britain and the USQ.

Assuming Japan emerged from the war in far better standing than real life perhaps Manchuria was given to Spry to create a buffer between Japan and Kievskaya Rus.

Here's an idea about communism. Say there Tsar Yakov never was a communist loving emperor, say instead he supported communism all over the world when ever he could as a mean of undermining democracy and sticking it to the USQ. maybe communism was even bigger in south america, largely because of Kieven support. i don't know. Good idea or bad idea?
I would like communist Cuba as an ally.

I can imagine the Geletian Tetrachy siding with the Axis, if Cassanos has Hiter and the Nazis exist, because perhaps he would view them as racially pure, big strong white Celts thrusting a wedge deep into the Slavic world, and for their part the Geletians just like a good scrap and perhaps saw an opportunity to expand their territory. The prospect of convincing Hitler that the best way to win the war was to invade Asia Minor and threaten Britain's Middle Eastern oil would fit well with the popular advocation of a 'return to Ancyra' on the part of the Celts.

Obviously we'd then end up fighting Russia more than the Turks, and putting a few Mauser rifles backed up by swords and hornbows against T-34s and PPShs would soon turn out to be less than a brilliant strategy, hence the quick over-running and temporary occupation of Geletia by the Russians, and the post-war establishment of the Principality.

LRR can take Sri Lanka if he wants. I'm still not sure whether to do anything in India. I did quite like being there, and it is an interesting part of the world with whatever LRR settles on, the Guptas in Burma, and proximity to a now quite varied China, but the Geletians are now quite happy in Europe, so I dunno. I'm not yet ruling out a claim on the sub continent as the Indian Soviet Commonwealth, allied to the BDR, but I don't want to get carried away and have it over-ride the BDR, which I'm looking forward to RPing. I did toy with the idea of a greater Bengali Soviet state, which would have a fair few people but a river of problems, so that's a possibility.

Certainly BG can keep Sri Lanka if he wants, that's no problem whatsoever. I'm not totally set on the Indian Subcontinent anyway, so BG gets the first pick when it comes to that. For now I suppose I'll have to rescind my claims so far, at least until I work out what exactly it is that I'd like to do.

Talost, that works for me. I have a lot of historic provinces in mind for the Alshorian Empire, many of which we've lost, some of which we're trying to hold on to, and so on. Guinea could be, in our lexicon, Gerash, which I always imagined as one of our most troublesome provinces with a large non-Ralish ethnic population.

In practice we're probably not going to be much more capable than you, militarily. We have almost forty million people, but a largely pre-industrial economy and absolutely massive borders to protect and maintain. At a glance, Eritrea shouldn't have a chance against Ethiopia, but that's not quite how it worked out with such limited economic muscle on both sides, eh? No doubt fighting in Guinea will be the cause that is used to hold our empire together (there's a war on, everybody toe the line!) and the drain that keeps us from real progress, so that's fitting for me.

I think I've just about got it. In India, I'll switch things around. The ISC will be a little enclave a la Roycelandian Goa. The Celts will still be there, but their numbers will make more sense. The epic migration of the Geletians of Galatia (mm, confusing) will not have lead to quarter of a billion Celts in India, merely a city-state type affair. If LRR settles on somewhere in South Asia, perhaps I'll just pinch a city on his coast, or the closest suitably-sized union territory or such.

Then I won't be taking up too much space or too many people in Asia, but I'll have a foothold there and can keep alive a few characters who evolved in the ISC of old, at least the likes of Indomartus who really couldn't come with us to Europe.

Bear in mind, LRR, you can probably make almost anything make some sense. We don't even know what will become of the rest of India, yet. Someone may come along wanting to play an independent Tamil Kingdom, or an Arabic super-state across the north, and it may turn out that there was never a British Raj, or that it was much reduced, or something. It's not like Gurg's desperately short on historic colonies :)

Figure out what sort of nation you want to play, and we'll give AMW percussive maintenance until it fits!

Well... I could take India.

(joking.)

Great, Ralish. That sounds like a lot of fun. And yes, you will be stronger than me, by a lot. The only way I could think for the war to continue for any length of time without you instantly crushing me is to have the population of Guinea be on my side. Shouldn't be hard to imagine. My men (read: disorganized rabble) preach equality and wealth for all, at the same time butchering anyone that walks in front of them. Sort of an African take on the Maoist concept of mobile warfare.

Indeed, it is really an issue of the Gujarat location feeling somewhat awkward to me, that and the relative emptiness of the Indian Subcontinent besides the tiny Daman Republic!

So I'll go with Sri Lanka, then, minus whatever presumably coastal city or two that BG decides to make into an enclave. Most aspects of this Republic of Ceylon will be similar to my previously-proposed Republic of Daman, though GDP per capita will be in the region of $4,800 in order to offset the population increase.

I can imagine the Geletian Tetrachy siding with the Axis, if Cassanos has Hiter and the Nazis exist, because perhaps he would view them as racially pure, big strong white Celts thrusting a wedge deep into the Slavic world, and for their part the Geletians just like a good scrap and perhaps saw an opportunity to expand their territory. The prospect of convincing Hitler that the best way to win the war was to invade Asia Minor and threaten Britain's Middle Eastern oil would fit well with the popular advocation of a 'return to Ancyra' on the part of the Celts.
I will definitely keep the national socialist regime, since it would make things horribly and needlessly complicated.
Besides, the Nazis could be easily identified as at least one of the two most influential political groups of the 20th century, and I wouldn't want you or me to have to adjust to their nonexistence.

As to BG's description of the Geletians' course in WWII, I'm quite fine with that. Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania were Germany's allies after all, and the German Army Group South used these countries as a base for their thrust into Russia.
Actually, BG's description of the Geletians fighting the Russians is pretty close to RL, since the RL-armies of Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania were deemed to be, well, somewhat less than effective, in the case of AMW history more due to inferior material rather than a lack of morale. Germany certainly supplied important amounts of weaponry to them, but probably outdated and/or captured stuff.
And the whole Ancyra-thing might be a nice incentive for the Celts, and doesn't change RL-history much, since Hitler was not really inclined to listen to his allies' proposals, anyway. Or to his generals. Or anyone.
I can feel I want to rant about RL-Germany's wartime economics, policy towards its allies/puppets and so on, so I will make it short:
Suits me, suits me fine. Should be fun to hammer out today's relations between Germany/Cassanos and BG. Well, you ARE opposed to the Tsarists, to be sure... And West Germany would probably have helped the oppressed masses of Geletia in their struggle somewhat, depending on the USQ's and Britain's stance in this.

Since I really have to catch some sleep, I'll just leave it at a short note to Kievskaya Rus:
I intended to have Cassanos (->RL-Poland) and Eastern Germany break away some time between 1985 and 1989, which I think I will now connect to the Celts' revolution. Maybe, after the southern flank of the Warszaw Pact or whatwillwecallit broke away, revolution in the north followed, or vice versa.

'nuff said, good night.

Alright Dra-pol, first I want you to know that Greece is included in my claim as well. Second, I might be interested in being the Christian aggressor in Korea (though I'm not sure if aggressor is the right word, but meh). It would give me a place to put untrustworthy Greek legions, and make Rome open to allies from all over. I'm not interested in saying that we've withdrawn, but I would like to RP it, and if I have to, Rome would be more willing to withdraw than Quinntonia. I will try to keep it, but lets see where RP takes us.

Hail Caesar!

Ah, finally, I can get on Jolt again. I'll just quickly rehash what I was saying off-site. If LRR goes for Ceylon, I was wondering, is Tamil Eelam too obvious/much for an alternate Indian Soviet Commonwealth?

I would propose conflict between the Republic of Ceylon and Tamil separatists who may perhaps be influenced by very limited interaction with Kurosite or Suloist elements -perhaps Suloists who fled Dra-pol after the rise of Kurosian?- and as such would be pretty universally regarded as the bad guys in the conflict, until the Igovian Revolution in Geletia, or the 1989 February Revolution that, in this reality, will have enhanced a comrade Chivo's status at Graeme's expense, sends Graeme on a busy-work trip to Ceylon, where he negotiates a settlement partly by 'liberalising' the Tamil movement until it is actually almost compatible with the Ceylonese status quo.

I think that would leave LRR's Republic of Ceylon covering about 60-70% of the island and over 80% of the population, and presumably trying to patch things up with the Indian Soviet Commonwealth of Tamil Eelam, which would be greatly influenced by the Beddgelen Democratic Republic through the Communist Contract Organisation... which others are welcome to join if they wish. The ISCTE and BDR combined would still only have about 43 million people tops, I think, and that's all right by me.

But if this sucks for LRR, there are plenty of other places I can go in South Asia, so, ah, yeah.

It might be of benefit, as we work out our various claims and prepare to launch into active roleplay, to also work out the details of our shared history and such.
- Kroando's claim will likely integrate better if his criminal hotbed has rivals and allies to interact in the seedy underbellies of other nations, for example. Will Bedgellen extremists trade Drapoel methanphetamines with the Ugandan mafia, for Ralish explosives destined for use in New People's Army bombing of a corrupt Filipino police precinct?
- Understanding of war itself may differ given differing circumstances... the concept of limited war would seem likely to be more prevalent as at least one of the Axis powers (Japan) looks to have been allowed to accept defeat without submitting to an unconditional surrender, and the Russian regime has survived without being overthrown through the Cold War years. At the same time, if Japan escaped nuclear bombing, there hasnt been any real atomic destruction of population centers, and combat use in '90s Korea will have been tactical (and accepted, it seems, without response from nuclear-armed Dra-pol, Spyr, or PR China). The USQ economy may not even have hit its RL high-point of war production before the war ended, perhaps leaving many still underestimating the capacity of a total war economy.
Those who know the realities of nuclear technology would certainly understand the risks, but the average person on the street might see war as safer than in RL, thinking that border skirmishes arent going to lead to the end of his state if his countrymen end up being defeated... and what's wrong with a little nuclear artillery, anyhow?
- One could argue for an eternity over wether imperialism has come to an end or merely taken on a different guise in RL, but it would seem that, in AMW, the concept has kept on chugging along as it always has... Britain maintains a significant empire, Quinntonia holds its own colonial territories in the Philippines, and Japan kept hold of its bosom colonies following its WWII defeat. It would seem that there would have to be a general opinion in many countries that 'self-determination be damned, we know whats best for the savages, wot!'
At the same time, socialism has been bumped down from its position as one of the two big 20th century ideologies, seeing its great successes in the aftermath of the Second World War. In China, in Spyr, and in Dra-pol, socialist revolution was intimately tied to their anti-Japanese and anti-imperial struggle, rather than a struggle against a domestic ruling class (though these certainly didnt survive the process intact once it occured). The more recent Bedgellen revolution, pushing out a foreign-backed monarch, can be seen in the same vein, and in the end communism probably ends up in a dichotomy opposite imperialism. Domestic socialists likely either behave much like social democrats in RL, or were crushed around the time the Bolsheviks met their end in Russia, while the 'dangerous' socialists would be those damned colonials getting ideas above their stations.
In that context, one can see the Russians and Anglo-Quinntonians sponsoring each other's communist movements in hopes of disrupting their rival's control over its colonies.
- That brings us to the matter of the Cold War, or what replaces it for our purposes. It would almost seem (assuming Gurg plays British political power in the hands of the Commons rather than Crown) that the two ideological pillars we're left with will be free-market democracy and feudal totalitarianism?

Which will be WWII all over again... ick. Oh, well. We'll see what happens.

Yeah, I have to agree with that bit about Communism in AMW being almost entirely tied to independence struggles and anti-colonialism. I can't help thinking of RL Vietnam when I say that. There, in reality, two different wars were being fought, one by each side, as I see it: the Americans thought they were fighting an ideology, where as the Vietnamese were still just fighting for independence and couldn't see the Americans as anything other than the new France. Which I think is one of the reasons for the American defeat. They might have been able to discredit an ideology or kill-off its principle supporters, but they couldn't subdue the basic urge to freedom or self-determination.
In AMW, Korea has to be pretty similar, especially since Sulo has been indicated as less than committed to a political/economic ideology other than Drapoel independence.
I would have been tempted to see the May Revolution in what is now Beddgelert as the begining of a change, but I suppose Spyr's right again, in that it would in this environment be more about getting rid of a Russian puppet than a feudal/capitalist tyrant, and depending what happens in India, the Beddgelens may well end up supporting a secessionist state there rather than a subcontinental revolution.
Interesting!

I'm pretty sure that, for what it matters, that assessement of the activities of Beddgelen extremists will be pretty close to the truth, as well...

I'm keen to find out what happened in WWI, if it happened at all (seems likely, if we have WWII). Covering Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria makes me less than entirely certain which side's machineguns would have cut-down the flower of Geletia's youth in that particular conflict.

Anyway, I wonder, who's going to do the maps? Maps are fun, right? I made a half-hearted attempt the other day to do Europe, but the internet cafe computer I was using did not want to co-operate and it ended in farce. Looked like an interesting continent, though, as far as I got.

This is another call for a new RPer to take care of P.R China.

If there are no other takers, then I will take on PR China in a caretaker capacity and do up a factbook, etc.

So now that East Asia is largely sorted, is anyone keen on doing up a map?

Someone going by 'Hogan' on the offsite forums expressed interest in it, so that might not even be an issue. I think we're about ready to roll, actually. I'm willing-ish to do the map, which seems to be an easier prospect this time 'round, and I already have a usable file on my computer. Yeah, I can do it.
*begins digging through thread for territorial claims*

Could i take Jamaica and Cuba?

Important!
We ask that all new members 'audition' by posting a sample of previous roleplay activity (or a link to same), after which the current AMW eminances grise (QDP, LRR, Spyr, BG, or some combination thereof) will decide whether or not the roleplay suggests that the prospective member is a good fit for the community. Also, please include a short statement about your ideas for the country, some notes on culture, and a brief rundown of population as well as national GDP. Thank you.
If you do this and we like what we see, yes.

Also, map (http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c95/Spoat/AMW20map_2.png)!

This is Hogan from offsite forum, finally I can post here......:hail:

I will like to claim the rest of China(North China?!) and Mongolia if possible:salute:

Capital : Beijing(Is it taken by SKYR already?!)
Population : 1 billion
GDP per capital : $5,300 (USD)
Currency : Chinese Dollar


Ideas for the country: mixture of RL China , RL Japan & RL North Korea. Will treat AMW China as todays China-Taiwan; International relationship with others as todays Japan-US; Technology as todays N.Korea. China will be the major, Mongolia the minor.




Couldn't find my previous RP, so I just quickly do one here. This is base on the "Sino Republic Party wins in landslide victory!" of AMW China, just a sample so don't worry too much about the fact... I mean the relationship between the countries.

China angry at Leo Ma

Washington News

A day after Leo Ma's Party claim political victory of Dominion of China, The People's Republic of China release a second statement which angrily informed Guangzhou that, as it is part of PRC, any secession activity is forbidden and will not be recognize by the PRC.

"For the past many years, we have noticed that there were many efforts by Guangzhou to claim its legal international position. All these efforts didn't effect, because countries around the world always strictly respected the one-China policy. It can't be bargained or exchanged." said the statement.

The statement also claim if Guangzhou government pursue any nuclear programme, PRC is prepared to use its military force to stop it.

PRC, which opposed to DOC independence in 1987, fail to recognize DOC and quickly passed an Anti-Secession Law 2 months after DOC independence. The law which state not only does all parts of DOC(Guangxi, Guangdong, Fujian, Hainan) but also Taiwan is part of PRC.

:mp:

BTW, Dra-pol, the RP with you has always been a highlight, and that is why I wanted to finish our epic beore I left. But, with a re-boot, we are not where would have been, and being forced into the situation wherein I was forced to continue being a presence there. That was the onerous part. I either had to have a major conlfict that could break both of our states, or sit behind my walls forever. Neither were very appealing to me.


So, where are we with my claim? The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of taking Canada, but I am not married to the idea. I am not claiming Mexico at all anymore, and the Phillipines is an open question. I really don't care what occurs at this stage, or if people jst wish me to have the US only, but I would like to know so that I can move forward.

WWJD
Amen.

Ok Hogan/Rising Nippon, that's a start...

A few things to further develop:

Taiwan is currently administered by Corbournne (Japan), but is claimed by both the Dominion of China (AMW China) and the P.R China (Rising Nippon).

Your population is probably closer to 800 million than 1 billion. As for the capital, perhaps Nanjing would be a good choice.

Is everything else (military, politics, culture) essentially the same as RL China then? Communist-led, pro-unification, with a Premier named Hu Jintao?

Ok Hogan/Rising Nippon, that's a start...

A few things to further develop:

Taiwan is currently administered by Corbournne (Japan), but is claimed by both the Dominion of China (AMW China) and the P.R China (Rising Nippon).

Your population is probably closer to 800 million than 1 billion. As for the capital, perhaps Nanjing would be a good choice.

Is everything else (military, politics, culture) essentially the same as RL China then? Communist-led, pro-unification, with a Premier named Hu Jintao?

More details in my factbook...... but first I need Gurguvungunit's approval to join~~~:mp:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=560872

The Beddgelen Democratic Republic, for reference.

Actually, you don't need my approval specifically. I'd point you to AMW China and Spyr, both of whom predate me as AMW members and both of whom will be able to help you a great deal in formulating your nation. I suggest you listen to them, since their questions and suggestions are regularly helpful to me.

As China said, it would be worth making a basic factbook here, much like a cut-down version of the CIA World Factbook's entry for your imaginary country. Take a look at some of the claims on this thread, those will give you some good ideas of what we're looking for.

Rising Nippon: Well, though he may not be the final authority, Gurg is an excellent source of input himself, and his suggestion above is pretty much what I'd have said... a factbook will help us figure out how your claim might fit into AMW, how our own claims can be adjusted for your presence, and what problems need to be ironed out before things start rolling.

Perhaps of use to start, I've updated AMW China's map to include the portions of the Middle Kingdom included within Spyr, for an idea of what is already claimed and what remains open.

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/289/chinaprovinceswm7.gif

---

Quinntonia: My view of a USQ including Canada is similar to that on one including Mexico... though its a powerhouse in military and economic terms, and thus not likely to be threatened by the armies of its neighbours, having independent countries on the Quinntonian border will lead to softwood lumber disputes, border security issues, and other RP possibilities which keep the home front interesting, as it were. But that may be based quite a bit on the possibilities which would be of interest to me were I making your claim... having a better impression of your vision for the new Quinntonia might help here, I think.

While on the subject of the claim, a bit of a more bureaucratic concern around the use of 'and all assets/dependencies/claims thereof' in the claim. We had a bit of trouble last time around about things such as overseas military bases, and I'd be more comfortable with a more specific list so we've got everything on record.

---

All: We're looking, at present, at a Cold War which was a conflict between feudal Russians and free market Quinntonians... a Warsaw Pact of the Tsar's puppet princes sprawling across Eastern Europe, Joe McCarthy chasing after monarchist agents in the State Department, and the like.
-The nuclear arms race begins under different circumstances, and thus might play out differently as well?
- The emergence of a new Roman empire would be a significant ideological victory for the Tsar... the loss of Europe to the feudies. I'm interested in knowing how this came about, and political reactions in the Western Bloc to the rather significant blow.
- Japan's role in such a Cold War scenario is uncertain... its politics and conflict with the USQ seem to indicate a leaning towards the Tsar, but Japan and Russia have long been rivals competing for imperial control over East Asia.

That is a good point, and temporarily derails what I was going to say before I logged on, today. Q may be in danger of isolating himself in something of a North American castle in the sky. I'm sure that's part of the reason for some of my side-project nations never really taking off in NS.

Still, from my selfish point of view, with QDP gone the details of Q's claim are less immediately important to me, and I would probably find it easier to get my head around a Quinntonian Canada than Mexico. I still wonder about the details... would the territories just be states of the Union, or would there have been an annexation or merger in more recent times?

It has put an idea in my head, though. Newfoundland (and Labrador) wasn't Canadian until 1949, right? Would it have become Quinntonian at all? I am really tempted to dust-off Walmington on Sea and force Gurg to appoint Governor General George Mainwaring, or something along those lines.

What about that? WoS covering Newfoundland and Labrador, or even just Newfoundland, would give Q a player-controlled neighbour, even if it would be 0.1% of his size or some such. The whole nation would of course be based around the cod 'n' chips industry and agreeing with London, but it may actually be at time too British for the British and end up causing problems with Washington by referring to 'rebel states' and 'yankee buccaneers' et cetera in official discourse.

By the by, since I can't be bothered to look it up just now owing to the fact that I'd rather drink this beer, doesn't France still have an overseas department off Newfoundland? I wonder what happens to that when France becomes part of the Roman Empire... especially if WoS ends up existing on its doorstep.

Er, in short, Q wants Canada, Spyr makes a good point about sort of small-scale RP on ones borders, and I'm all tempted by Newfoundland for WoS. Thoughts, peanut gallery?

Also, while I think we can continue using this one for recruitment, advertising, arguing and dithering, I wonder if it might be a good idea to have a second hub thread, perhaps giving an overview of AMW as it stands. Er, of course I nominate Spyr to draft such an overview =)

I'm not sure if it's necessary, but I have a vague feeling of... I don't know, untidiness or something, at the moment.

A summary thread of sorts? Might be useful... lists of principles and policies, current members and their claims (Gurg's map looks to be coming along nicely, which will probably help such an endeavour), perhaps an overview of the major historical differences between AMW and reality, that sort of thing?

All: We're looking, at present, at a Cold War which was a conflict between feudal Russians and free market Quinntonians...
[...]
- The emergence of a new Roman empire would be a significant ideological victory for the Tsar... the loss of Europe to the feudies. I'm interested in knowing how this came about, and political reactions in the Western Bloc to the rather significant blow.

I suppose this would rather be an issue talked about in the new thread, but my time on the internet is quite limited these days, and I want to hammer some things out:
Did the 'Neo-Romans' side with the Tsarists, or established themselves as a third power in Europe, not wanting to share their power with the Tsarists?
If they had sided with the WP with NATO (if it existed), this might have decided the Cold War in favour of the Feudalists, so this is a matter of supreme importance, I think. Imagine RL-Spain, France and Italy breaking away an turning communist in the 70ies!

I expect Nixon would have shot himself, or something.

Dra-Pol: If you want to create the Walmingtonian Commonwealth or something, I'd be quite happy to RP with you on that. I find it amusing at times that the actual Brit on AMW RPs a stereotypical British culture that would make most of his countrymen cringe, while an American RPs a rather more middle-of-the-road British Imperial Britain.

Oh, Labour. The internet has no love for you. But now I'm rambling with even less than my usual degree of clarity. Back to the topic.

Quinn: I'm not too concerned about you adding Canada, since you could plausibly say that the Canadian territories (minus those that belonged to France) just rebelled with the Americans. The French colonies could have been consumed in some later border skirmish or something. Anyhow, it makes a lot more sense than Mexico, which is culturally entirely foreign to the United States. I trust you enough as a roleplayer that I don't think you'll use your increased economic/territorial strength to rule the world, or something like that.

OK, so my claim then stands as US and Canada. I would rather not break up the Dominion by having Newfoundland not being in Confederation. (It just isn’t Canada without it, lol) That being said, Dra-pol, are you thinking of having a second claim? Or did I misunderstand that? Is that something you are really interested in?

Hmmm, this means that I can probably start to work on my new factbook. As for my history, what would make more sense to the community, to have Canada revolt in the War of the Colonial Rebellion, or to have it join at a later date, perhaps in the late 60’s as an overall protest about the Commonwealth’s ongoing imperialism? That would make the 32 million Canadians more secular by far than their southern neighbors, would allow me to retain some unique cultural points, and operate it as a semi-autonomous region within the union. Either way is fine by me. But I am drawn to the latter.

As for my power? Well, as much as this Canuck would like to believe so, the addition of our great power to the balance may not be the deciding factor in any conflict with the US, lol. Though the massive resource and commodity wealth will help.

OK, so when I know that portion of that history, I can work out the rest.


WWJD
Amen.

So wait.. I'm confused over that map of China.

Are the blue and purple parts claimed by separate entities, or were you trying to point something else out?

If that's the case, though, then I'd like to claim the following:

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t282/ClubCrKz/chinaprovinceswm7copy.jpg

( Sorry for the quality; It shows it in a high resolution in-program but seemingly refuses to save it as such no matter which format and 'quality' I tell it to save as. )

Shandong, Jiangsu, Shanghai, Zhejiang, Jiangxi, Hunan, Hubei, Anhui, Henan, Shanxi, and Shaanxi Provinces.

I don't have any 'links' or solid proof of my RPing History/Skill, but I've been around here since 04 but inactively ( more or less on and off ) since 06. I've been doing off-site RPs for Years now, so I'm not sure what else I could really say. For my claim, I'm not really sure what I want to do. Not sure if I'll pull the completely Nationalistic overtones again ( not again as China, just again in general ), or stick to beating the Independent States and AMW China at the Industrial/Corporate Game. Also, I'm still confused as to what SPYR is.

PS - Though as I read through the thread as I type this out, I've depressingly learned that apparently my claim is compromised.. 0o

Well, any ideas as to what's there then...? :3

I think that the Romans are broadly on-side with the Tsarists, though I find it hard to imagine that there won't be some differences of opinion and even conflicts of interest between them.

I wouldn't worry too much. The likely-enlarged US, the still-healthyish British Empire, Germany and Poland, Geletia, Spyr on the eastern borders, and more nations would still be enough to make the Feudalists think twice about starting an all-out war. Maybe they'd appear the stronger half, but not by such a huge margin that war would seem like something to be taken lightly.

As to Canada, Q, and WoS, I'm not too sure. I still think that what Spyr said is worthy of serious thought, and that Q will only hurt himself by isolation. Equally, I'm hardly using WoS in NS at all these days, which seems like a shame, and having just a few hundred thousand people on the US border would lead me to conjure some of the sort of minor-importance RPs that Spyr was talking about and that really fit the fussy Walmingtonian character quite well. But on the other hand I only have so much time for RP these days, and wouldn't want to bite off more than I could chew... although, again, having just a few hundred thousand people and probably mostly diplomatic-spat RPs with WoS would probably allow it to be slow-paced.

Hm. What if I just took Newfoundland, and ceded Labrador to the US? Perhaps that could be part of the history of Canada becoming part of the US. I mean, to say that it's not Canada without Newfoundland is a bit off the mark, given how recently Newfoundland and Labrador became part of Canada, and how close and controversial the vote for confederation. For most of their histories, Canada and Labrador were separate countries, after all.

I'm not totally set on this, but it does seem like a nice idea. WoS is sort of a romantic and partly silly notion of a nation that I think goes quite nicely with AMW, and it really would do next to sweet FA to Quinntonia's power to do without 485,000 Newfies, or even 28,000 Labra..dorians? Eh, hang on. Right, have to go, back later...

I like the latter way, Quinn. I think it would make for a much more interesting RP, seeing the relations between Canada and the rest of the union.

As for the question about Rome, I think that initially Rome would have backed Russia, under the reign of the first Caesar, until it got on its feet and became the power that it is today. However, once it got on its feet, and a new Caesar came to power, it would try to repair the relationship with the west somewhat and try to work a little more closely with them. Of course, this might lead to more conflicts of interest and strain the relationship with Russia, but alliances come and go just as quickly as money flies out of the student's pocket.

A summary thread of sorts? Might be useful... lists of principles and policies, current members and their claims (Gurg's map looks to be coming along nicely, which will probably help such an endeavour), perhaps an overview of the major historical differences between AMW and reality, that sort of thing?

Yes, I think we need to work out and explain a few key things.

AMW is often slow-paced, because we want to do things right, but has been around for four years or some such length of time and isn't going to fall into inactivity like so many other Earth RPs. People need to know that, and accept that if they're the sort to quit when it's a bit slow, AMW is not for them. It's a long-term investment.

Related to that, we want people to come with original ideas, and nations to which they are committed. We don't just want you to come and play the RL country you were too late to claim in the last Earth RP you joined. Again, a lot of us have been at this for four years, and AMW is everything to our NS countries.

And yes, the map, the list of players, territories, and ideally links to their factbooks or similar homepage or hub threads or whatever you want to call them.

I think that could be useful, all in all.

As to Q and WoS, since I was interrupted earlier (this isn't my computer, and someone is actually supposed to be using it to do, you know, work, hehe), I was wondering if you'd be open to Walmington on Sea being a Dominion within the British Empire until, say, 1949, in place of Newfoundland (including Labrador), or until the 1960s if that's when you end up joining Canada to the US, and then the country (WoS) splitting. In reality there was a lot of contention, Catholics and Protestants at one another's throats, and pretty split opinion on independence or union. I can imagine that WoS, being more traditional and conservative, perhaps didn't treat the Innu and other aboriginal peoples very well at all, didn't tolerate anything remotely French, and was pretty harsh on the Catholics too. As such, Labrador probably agitated for union with Canada, or else invited US annexation. That would be a source of on going low-key hostility from the Walmingtonians towards the US to this day.

When I talk about WoS being hostile to the US, though, it's mostly in semi-jest. When it comes down to it, the Walmies probably suppose that the Yanks or Quints or whatever are basically on the same side as them, but when there's no greater threat about, badgering the US and trying to score points off it is basically a national sport.

To a great degree, WoS would be dominated by the Anglican church, without really thinking about it, and maybe a large minority still thinks that it was a mistake to remain slavishly loyal to Britain instead of joining the US/Canada when Labrador did.

Well, what do you think? Any interest in this?

As to China, I'll leave it to Spyr and AMW_China to address Pyschotika, but I think that leaving some of the west open is potentially interesting. If Depkazia were still Depkazia quite the Central Asian Caliphate and/or Khanate could be accommodated, and China end up with a much more old-worldy feel to it.

As for the WOS thing, I can't say that it holds any interest for me. At least not at the cost of Newfoundland.

I guess it is a Canadian thing, Newfoundland was always part of the Dominion, even when they weren't. Even the vote to bring them in, was close due to financial considerations, as in which would be better, to stay a colony or get in on Confederation? When the Parliament buildings were built, and all of the provinces were to be represented by a carved plaque, Newfoundland's plaque was left bare awaiting their coming to the Dominion. And, even with the uber-pro-Newfoundland Premier Dannie Williams in charge, one would be hard pressed to find a Newfie who would seriously want to revert back to colony status, aside from the occasional drunken tirade against Ottawa at the pub that could be placed in any Province or territory. LOL. That, and I have done the "have a weird British-y nation on my frontier thing before, you know, for years. The Roiks explored that quite well. For years. I am looking for something different.

Their cultural influence on Canadiana is extensive as well, even if it does amount to the occasional Newfie joke. It far belies the number of their population. It is something truly unique to Canada. Ignoring the difference in respective populations for a moment, try and imagine the UK minus Scotland. It would be kind of like that. I mean, it could be done, but it would definitely cease to be what it was.

The point of me rambling on at 4 in the morning is that I want Newfoundland. I had not even imagined it before, but the thought of a Canada without it just rubs me rotten. Hmmm. I love them goofie Newfies. And just the way that they are. LOL.

Anyhoo, I think that with that I am going to embark upon a factbook that includes Canada and does not include Hamhung. I am very, very excited to embark on this with anew, fresh vision. That being, do everything the same way as I envisioned the first time, but with more education and experience.

And the isolation thing really has nothing in it that scares me. I am not worried about it at all. I mean, the US in RL has little trouble being in everyone's bidnezz without holding vast overseas claims, why should I? IF I CHOOSE TO. Mwahahahahaha! Freedom of action! Unconstrained by treaty and embattled enclaves. Oh, how sweet it is.

As for the workding of my claims, I will try and be more specfic, but perhaps that might have to wait for my factbook. Hmmm, though I may need to discuss things with Germany, and who claimed Japan? But yeah, you can expect things like that (shoudl they work) and stuff like Guam, Panama, etc.

WWJD
Amen.

Ah, but in reality the US doesn't have such competition. Where, from my point of view, Romania, Hungary, or Bulgaria might be interested in what the US has to say, but the BDR couldn't give two hoots what the Yanks want, or what they have to offer, or what they'll do if we crap in their apple pie :) The way I read that post, which may be quite wrong, it sounds almost like you're imagining the disappearance of Newfoundland rather than its independence. I mean, it'll still be there. Ireland (the Republic anyway) may be independent now from the UK, but the rest of us still make Irish jokes and wonder if it might not be a bad idea to send the SAS back in. Likewise I'd imagine that Quinntonians would continue to mock those Newfies/Walmies and joke about annexing the place, which would presumably be referred to as the 64th ish (I'm not sure what would be happening with the other provinces and territories of Canada) State.

Corbournne (SP?) claimed Japan, right? Along with a disputed Taiwan and what remains of South Korea, and I'm not sure what was decided on the division or not of Sakhalin. But since this Japan was never nuked and kept part of its Empire, I doubt it has thousands of US soldiers based on its territory. No idea about Germany, though. I kinda hope you do have bases there. I want to sponsor the new Red Army Faction equivalents and bomb bars full of Quinntonian servicemen, after all :D

Hm. At some point, the BDR is so going to get invaded.

I'll have to second that about newfoundland. Canada with out newfoundland would be a like a pierogi without sour creme.

So in the 1980's Communism was spreading all over Europe. Rome was fighting communism in greece and the tsarist puppet Beth-Gellert was toppled by a communist coup. Russia was on the brink of and was in the middle of civil war with Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Georgia, Azerbaijan and their neighbors. Lets say then that Kazakhstan and the rest of the separatists were communist. Now the clash between the russian tsarist empire is mostly over equality and bucking off the control of the nobility, the economic structure would be very much the same as the kieven planned econemny. The 1990's saw the creation of a whole bunch of new communist states that separated from Russia, so the reaction to communism in Kievskaya Rus has been pretty strong.

So I guess it works out quite well that Cesar and the Tsar would be allies, supporting each other's fight against communism. This after Russia spent the 50's 60's and 70's supporting communists in south and central America.

So the USQ and Kieven Rus now share the arctic as a border eh? hmm.

Looking to be quite a tri-polar world this AMW 2.0...how does the Tsar view communist china?

Looking forward to your intro RP...the Dominion is not quite sure what to make of this! Will the enemy of my enemy be my friend or simply another enemy?

@BG:
No idea about Germany, though. I kinda hope you do have bases there. I want to sponsor the new Red Army Faction equivalents and bomb bars full of Quinntonian servicemen, after all
As I see it, there will be a large presence of Quinntonian soldiers in Germany, maybe even some in Cassanos.
So, while I was first thinking about seeing the BDR as something of a not-exactly-enemy, regarding their fight against the evil, oppressive Feudies, support for communist terror in Germany will be answered as in RL:
The Germans are quite peaceful, understanding and such, as in RL, but this didn't keep them from cracking down on the RAF in the 70ies, and if they were supported by the BDR, the consequences might be dire *spooky voice*. For whom, time will tell ;).

So, maybe refraining from bombing the evil capitalist swines might be put on ice in favour of bombing the evil monarchist swines instead, but that's up to you *fingers crossed*.

However, Cassanos might not be that inclined for conflict with the BDR, since these crazy Celts seem like to divert a large portion of Tsarist attention and resources. Hmmm...

Well, that might be an interesting source of conflict as Russia and USQ spent some time saber rattling over the Polar regions and their vast mineral wealth.

I am ready to go. Corbournne. Right, I knew that, brain stall. OK, I need to start to get everyone's history down, exactly why didn't I nuke Japan? I rather enjoyed that. Not a deal breaker by any means, but even without assuming an occupation, how did WW2 wind down in the Pacific?

WWJD
Amen.

Quinn: As Coburnne stated earlier in the thread, the war in the Pacific ended much earlier than in reality, with a government influenced by admiral Yamamoto negotiating a peace settlement that saw Japan withdraw from occupation of Southeast Asia while retaining its colonial holdings in Taiwan and Korea (the latter then being partially lost to form the CPRD through the success of internal resistance, a pattern which seems likely to have repeated to some extent in China and Spyr, prompted Japanese withdrawal around 1945).

---

On the subject of WoS and Newfoundland, I'm a bit concerned about the nature of your objection, regardless of whose claims to what parts of Canada will eventually be accepted. It seems to consist of two parts: the first being that an independent Newfoundland is objectionable because it doesnt mesh with Canadian identity in reality, and the second that it is objectionable because you dont want WoS as a neighbour to your own claim. I'm not sure either ought really stand as a valid objection in the context of resolving AMW claims.

The first ignores the fact that part of the point of AMW is that its nations arent those seen in reality, and reality doesnt dictate their nature. Otherwise we'd have no Celts in eastern Europe, no Portuguese-speaking republic in Sri Lanka, and Egyptian nationalism would long ago have risen to make London decide the colony was untenable. Pretty much all of our states have got to be objectionable on some level to those who come from the same territory in reality... Spyr cuts off the bloody head of the 'great rooster-shaped country' and says that China's capital for 750 of the past 800 years was never part of the country at all, and I know more than one person who would probably break my nose over such an affront were I to suggest it in conversation. Canadian culture has certainly been influenced by the inclusion of Newfoundland and its culture, but its also been influenced by a strong British Loyalist tradition which you seem alright with tossing out the window.

The second, at least in my opinion, exceeds the authority we ought have on judging new claims. I'd prefer to play Spyr beside a Japan neutered through wartime defeat followed by resurgent apocalyptic mysticism, a China long divided but now struggling to deal with internal differences now that the dream of unity has been achieved, and a formerly Communist Russia which has undergone a recent transformation to monarchy, across the Japan Sea from a batshit-crazy isolationist North Korea dealing with an American enclave sitting on its most fertile agricultural lands. But I'm not in a position to object to the far-different visions proposed for those states, nor should I be. Its one thing to decide what territories/history/demographics will fit with what you want out of AMW roleplay, but quite another to object to other valid claims on the grounds that you dont want to be stuck next to them.

Once again it is hard to disagree with Spyr. All together too reasonable for this community, sometimes. Bit like the old INU in-character :)

A few general notes to the community, on history and other things.

Vecron and I have loosely agreed that the Cornovii, a Geletian tribe of which the Clan Igo is a part, was once based in Greece and nearby territory (the name is taken to mean people of the horn, and so is a reference to their presence at the end of the Balkan peninsula). It may not have been an entirely settled population when in Greece, and likely was a problem for the authorities, Roma x100. Around the end of the '70s or start of the '80s it was the Cornovii's increasing politicisation and radicalism that alarmed the new Romans and induced their intervention in Greece. This time the Romans were successful in dislodging the Cornovii, and forced their northward migration. This essentially ammounted to an invasion of the ailing pro-Tsarist Geletian Principality and saw one of its most powerful tribes, the Tolistobogii, dislodged from their capital, Trevenya (RL Bucharest), and Llewellyn Map Gelert dethroned, largely by the left-wing leadership of the Cornovii Clan Igo.

So, yeah, the story of the Igovian Revolution, and I suppose confirmation that we will view Rome as our number one enemy, followed by Kyiv which we'll be fighting in Moldova, and only then Cassanos and Q and the rest...

I am not sure what you are talking about Spyr. I never said that i didn't want to border WOS. That was not my objection at all. Hmmm, I am reading back and perhaps you are reading that into this comment, "As for the WOS thing, I can't say that it holds any interest for me. At least not at the cost of Newfoundland." Please don't read too much into this. I am under the assumption that Dra-pol was making his second claim based on the premise that I might want/need a foil on my border with which to have some low-level diplomatic RPs with. I am not opposed to that at all. I just don't want it to occur at the cost of Newfoundland. I want to retain the Canadian culture and identity, and explore their place as a semi-autonomous nation within the union, they would have their own political system, own Parliament, own laws, own Prime Minister, but be answerable to Washington, much like say, Scotland has been to London up until recently. Thus, I can play out some of the regional tensions that are inherent in this kind of situation, especially as the secularized Canadians find themselves trying to work with 300 million passionate theocrats. I think it will make for an interesting RP. I explored it a little in the post I made for the Chinese election thread, perhaps you'll get a better picture there.

As for the British loyalist tradition, as someone who has Canadian Loyalists in his family, I understand that tradition, and as a British Canadian, I empathize. I am proud to be a part of Her majesty's Commonwealth. And I think that the Canadians are as well, they would have left the Commonwealth as an act of protest during the massive radicalized political landscape of Canada in the 60's, and some would regret that move, while some would join the more modern Canadian refrain of, "Why the hell do we need a Queen, anyways?" I am thinking of even exploring a move towards a return to the Commonwealth at some stage, perhaps as Canada alone, perhaps more. I am thinking that we still have a Governor General, and many of the Parliamentary traditions would have stayed the same, as they have in Quinntonia, and many, particularly in some parts of Ontario and southern Manitoba, would still think of themselves as British, but I don't know where it will end up. The more I think about the possibilities, the more excited I am though.

I would welcome someone I don't totally agree with on my border, I do have a massive Tsarist Empire bordering me across the Bering Straight and the Polar region, and perhaps someone will pick up Mexico at some stage.

I am unsure, if my presuppositions are wrong about Dra-pol, why he feels that he needs a second claim, but if it is for my sake, I am not worried about getting involved in greater AMW, i am planning on being far more isolationist anyways, at least at first. Hell, if Dra-pol was interested in playing a Hapsburg Emperor in Mexico instead of Dra-pol, I would be all for it, that could be a lot of fun.

As for the WW2 history as talked about, I was wondering because the write ups that i have been reading all pre-dated the understanding that it was not going to be me in Hamhung and assumed that I held the Philippines still. So, i wondered if things had changed. I would have to say that between me attacking Japan from the sea and Russia marching on Japan after the war in Europe ended. At the very least, Pearl Harbour had to not have ever happened. If there was an attack like that on Quinntonian soil, we would never have accepted anything but unconditional surrender. And that would have led to occupation, etc., etc. And I don't care about that, I don't need the occupation. And if old Cor doesn't want it, that is fine by me, I don't need to have nuked anyone. I just want to make sure that the history that is being written for me reflects the national character. So, with that understanding, awesomeness.

Hmmm, I don't remember if that was everything, but any more questions, and I will try and answer them. Sorry for the misunderstandings, though.

WWJD
Amen.

Greetings, all! It is good to see AMW getting back on its well-travelled feet. On the topic, I have taken a few steps back and looked at my past involvement, and at what is now the lay of the new land.

I can not help noticing that the Al Khali fruit may be ripe for the picking. I could, it seems, actually make the oil state that Al Khals was always supposed to be, if there is no United Elias in this new history.

I would be prepared to take on almost any history that others wish to lay upon a potentially important part of the world if it means that the Arab Republic of Al Khals and the Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party of Omar Qottar could rise on top of a significant black gold fortune.

Iraq would be an obvious choice, but being as my activity can be on and off, a smaller claim isn't entirely out of the question. Kuwait, Qatar, and Bahrain, would perhaps suffice, but I think that Iraq would have to be my first choice. The Al Khalis would set to major canal works in the marshland and between the Tigris and Euphrates, no doubt.

As ever, though socialist in name, Qottar's Ba'athists would not exactly be committed to waving the red flag and so on, of course.

So wait.. I'm confused over that map of China.

Are the blue and purple parts claimed by separate entities, or were you trying to point something else out?

If that's the case, though, then I'd like to claim the following:

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t282/ClubCrKz/chinaprovinceswm7copy.jpg

( Sorry for the quality; It shows it in a high resolution in-program but seemingly refuses to save it as such no matter which format and 'quality' I tell it to save as. )

Shandong, Jiangsu, Shanghai, Zhejiang, Jiangxi, Hunan, Hubei, Anhui, Henan, Shanxi, and Shaanxi Provinces.

I don't have any 'links' or solid proof of my RPing History/Skill, but I've been around here since 04 but inactively ( more or less on and off ) since 06. I've been doing off-site RPs for Years now, so I'm not sure what else I could really say. For my claim, I'm not really sure what I want to do. Not sure if I'll pull the completely Nationalistic overtones again ( not again as China, just again in general ), or stick to beating the Independent States and AMW China at the Industrial/Corporate Game. Also, I'm still confused as to what SPYR is.

PS - Though as I read through the thread as I type this out, I've depressingly learned that apparently my claim is compromised.. 0o

Well, any ideas as to what's there then...? :3

HI Psycho,

Most of SE Asia is still empty, as is the middle east and latin america.

Sorry for not being on alot lately, a combination of power outages and lot's of work have curtailed my internet time. Hopefully things will be clearing up as we head into August.

Now, on the subject of Japan's role in the "Cold War," there would be no love for the USQ, for obvious reasons. However, there would likewise be a lack of support for a Tsarist Russia with which Japan has no doubt clashed with in the past. That leaves Japan in a kind of "hostile neutral" position in relation to both of the other powers.

I may have missed saying this before, but Pearl Harbor never happened. A more conventional declaration of war followed by a concentrated attack on the Phillipines would be persued. Thus, US naval forces were much more potent early on in the war, but the government and populace were much more willing to accept a conditional surrender of the Japanese.

I can't help noting the strangeness of that statement. The attack on Pearl Harbour was according to Japanese convention, and it's America's stupid fault if they didn't see it coming. I have never understood the degree of American outrage on that matter, except by accepting that the United States is an extremely childish and naive nation. Declaring war prior to a first strike would represent a break with convention for the Japanese, and after adopting hostile postures to one another, Washington either knew that Japan was going to attack, or was criminally negligent and violating the most basic principles of the art of war by demonstrating abject ignorance of its enemy. As to American outrage, the sad irony only becomes richer with even a cursory glance to American procedure in initiating armed conflicts through the years.

But that isn't why I came here. It hasn't come to anything, yet, so I'm going to put my claim on hold before I get carried away. Unfortunately I have to admit that I am too bogged-down in another RP to give Al Khals enough time to suit AMW. I'm not saying that I won't be back when things quiet down elsewhere, but until then forget about my approach. Eventually either Al Khals or Costa Paz will be back, but not today.

Hm, well, I think that I agree with Spyr and BG, but it's not like I'm actually set on a particular thing, so it's okay, as it happens. Though it was just an idea at first, this has got me thinking about WoS and really missing it, to be honest.
I think that Newfoundland is still the ideal option presenting itself, and am inclined to reject the nature of Q and KR's objections in principle, but in practice I can work with it, it was just an idea.
I mean, I think Q still could have treated Walmies as equivalent to Newfies, in many respects, but from my point of view Walmy character can survive just about anywhere. So, to put that statement to the test, I'm looking at Iceland...

Did anyone put a claim on that? Oh, wait, yeah, I remember, that's not coming to anything, right?

I can see maybe Iceland as Great Walmington, and perhaps the Faroe Islands as Southend and/or Eastgate. The British would either have dislodged, conquered, or out-bred the Scandinavian population at some point in history, most likely starting in the late C15th or so (because then I can just lift parts of my old pre AMW WoS history =) ).

I think that'd be some 350,000 or so people, fishing for cod and playing the world's coldest first-class cricket competition. Possibly we'd get some sort of rebate or something from Britain, and Walmingtonians would serve in the British military, perhaps as part of their domestic national service, and the British would be allowed to use Walmingtonian territory for military business. We would be independent, ultimately, but still clinging to the apron strings.

Without turning this into a debate about Pearl Harbor, let me say that it must be understood that Americans of the time set great stock in the western traditions of warfare and, perhaps more importantly, proper conduct. While it is true that Japanese doctrine suggested that a first strike attack was likely, it is also understandable that Americans would simply not consider a pre-emptive strike possible. Not immoral, mind, possible. Just like the Japanese doctrine leaned towards pre-emptive strike and such an outcome was to be expected by a student of it, American doctrine demanded that a belligerent declare war before killing three thousand people.

Is this no longer the case? No, and to understand that you have to consider that American doctrine is shaped almost entirely by our experience in the Second World War. The pre-emptive strike doctrine comes from our experience in Pearl Harbor and the observation of Nazi spearheads in Europe, which also attacked first (although not without declaring war, I suppose) and asked questions later. It can be fairly said that the modern American military uses a form of blitzkrieg in its conventional operations, and for evidence I'd cite the first Gulf War. Well, actually, that was a mix of AirLand Battle doctrine and blitzkrieg/armored spearhead, but now I'm just rambling on.

It's also worth noting that the Japanese fully intended to give prior notice of an attack (well, actually simultaneous notice) and the reason that the attack came before a declaration of war was that the Japanese embassy in Washington suffered something of a breakdown in communications to do with time zones (if I recall correctly, the confusion came because Hawaiian time is several hours offset from Washington D.C. time, and the attack notice was given in one time while the embassy interpreted it as in the other).

As for the United States being a particularly childish or naive nation, let's recap: Americans are the product of western tradition, which demands fair notice in advance of a war. When opposing doctrines collide, it is entirely natural for each side to experience some kind of blindspot to do with the culture of its enemy. This holds true in almost every east/west conflict, from the Crusades through the age of Imperialism, and on to the modern day in Iraq. Also consider, those Japanese officers who had experience of American culture (well, only Admiral Yamamoto did, but he said it fairly well) warned that any such attack would arouse a level of outrage completely unexpected by the Japanese General Staff. That suggests that to an observer conversant in American culture and ways of thinking, our response was neither ridiculous nor childish, but rather a product of the way our culture viewed warfare at that time.

Erm, excuse me. I get irritated when people call my culture childish without knowing what they're talking about.

Probably that the Japanese never declared war before launching attacks on anyone else prior to the Pacific War should have served as some indicator to even the most inexperienced of American diplomats or planners, eh? I still find it somewhat offensive, or at least emotionally irresponsible, for Pearl Harbour to have such a position as it does in the history of 'infamy'. To get so upset about an attack on a military target in the midst of a war that was seeing millions of targeted civilian deaths really meant that there was no way to go but carpet bombing and atomic warfare. There'd be non-stop genocide across the globe if everyone were so extreme and, in a wartime context, easily offended. This is probably why the yanks won't give up landmines and clusterbombs and what not.

This is where Walmington's Sir Henry Chaspot Wayne comes in to talk about the days when war was war and soldiers were soldiers, and starts reenacting a cavalry charge with his condiments and decanting set.

So, er, am I missing any AMW RP, yet?

There is no need for such a debate. The fact is, such a change in plan was made due to the very fact that Yamamoto knew what the American's response would be. A break in tradition, yes, but with a new, different foe, it would be required to prevent Japan from falling into an occupied state following the war.

since the topic of canada is not yet resolved. I'm personally in favour of keeping canada united and in one piece. If you've read USQ's post on the election in china thread you'll see what the plan is. Quinn appears to be looking at play real world canada as a character in AMW. As a canadian I think that's really cool. If someone wanted to play an atlantic country so close to the USQ why not take Cuba? I seems that the only reason people have for Quinn not having all of canada is because he'll have no neighbours, with Mexico, Cuba and the rest of the Caribbean open why ruin his idea?

Meh, I think the point was that there's historical justification regarding Newfoundland and Labrador as British aligned colonies or separate states, whereas having Cuba populated by white people would be 1) a total rip of Roycelandia's thing, and 2) ridiculous.

Walmington, what's your point? That it offends you that Pearl Harbor was America's justification for a war with Japan, which led to the removal of Imperial Japan as a threat to global security? I could go on and on about why the use of nuclear weapons in the Second World War was the right thing to do from a military, political and even humane standpoint (to wit: many more people on both sides, civilian and military, would have been killed in a drawn out battle for the Japanese Home Islands), but that's not terribly relevant to... anything.

I'd also point out that war with Japan was far from a foregone conclusion, as you seem to think. It was a possibility that Roosevelt and his staff would rather have avoided, and would have been happy to avoid so long as Japan didn't, oh, declare war on them or attempt to conquer Indonesia.

Erm, if you'd actually just like to rant about why Americans are, in your mind, a bunch of children, how about you take that to another thread? NS General seems to enjoy that sort of thing, I find. Not only is it rather offensive to Americans (which I am one of) it's totally irrelevant. To forestall further discussion, this is less a tirade at WoS in particular and more of being sick of random anti-Americanism. Apologies for, you know, flying off the handle and all.

A quick question: is the list on the first post up-to-date? I know this is off-site and thus have no way of really knowing if there's much of anything left. Would like to get the mental juices flowing and need an idea of what's available first.

Heh, the issue, I think, is not with American justification for war with Japan... no war is ever black and white, but WWII is probably as close as they come. Al Khals and Dra-pol seem more to the place occupied by the attack on Pearl Harbour within the common American understanding of history, as an unspeakably heinous act which came completely out of the blue. That perspective seems a bit odd given other attacks that followed, American use of surprise attacks without war declarations, and the like... while fighting on the ground through Kyushu would have resulted in far more carnage than firebombing and atomic bombing, such bombings of civil centers to destroy war production would seem objectively more horrible than an attack on a military base by fighter-bombers.

But they may be giving the US a bit too little credit. I dont think that the attack really came as a surprise so much as the location... the US had delivered its ultimatum to Japan on China, Japan had been seen preparing for war, and American planners were not ignorant of Japanese military history. Guam or the Philippines were more likely first-strike targets, and the Americans might have underestimated just how capable Japan might have been, but by the time the attack was launched neither side could have believed it would end peacefully (after all, the furthest Japan ever went in negotiations was "We'll be willing to withdraw from half of the places we took over since the start of your embargo, so long as you give us oil" followed by the United States restating its original position, hardly a sign either side was willing to make concessions and reach a settlement). The depiction of Pearl Harbour as coming out-of-the-blue is, I suspect, more an example of American skill at propaganda than a sign of American ineptitude.

On the matter of Yamamoto and objection to Pearl Harbour, I think there may be a misunderstanding of his position. The admiral didnt object to the specific attack because he thought it would rouse the United States against Japan and lead to defeat: he believed that any attack would have that effect, and thus war with the Americans shouldnt be pursued at all. But, if such a war was to go ahead, the only chance of victory would to be to strike as devastating a first blow as possible, rather than the existing doctrine of whittling-followed-by-Decisive-Battle. Yamamoto was thus a supporter of Pearl Harbour but an opponent of going to war with the United States... if he had managed to take control of government, he would probably have bowed to American demands and scaled back Japanese presence in China rather than attacking targets in the Philippines.

Which actually seems like it would get you pretty much where you want to be, really... in 1940-41, the United States of Quinntonia (along with Britain) institutes an embargo against Japan, demanding their withdrawal from China. Without imported petroleum and metals, Japan will face economic disaster. Though some factions in the Imperial government call for a military attack to take control of European territories in Southeast Asia and the Pacific so as to secure the needed resources and prevent encirclement, Isoroku Yamamoto manages to convince Emperor Hirohito that such a move will lead to war with the USQ, a conflict that Japan will be unable to win. Appointed prime minister, Yamamoto assents to Western demands and begins to withdraw troops from China, resulting in the flow of imports being restored. Withdrawal is hampered by IJA officers who object to the 'loss of face' and continue to launch attacks unauthorized by Tokyo, but by 1945 Japan's last troops are pulled out of Chinese territory, followed by withdrawal from Lyong/Manchuria and northern Korea in the face of widespread resistance.

It means that WWII would not have really reached the Pacific, but it gets us to the point we're at now, eliminates concerns over Quinntonia's seemingly limited response, and the like.

---

Samtonia: Its a bit behind, I think, though not by too much. Manchuria is gone, and details surrounding Canada are being worked out... there may be something else, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

So, I think I've narrowed it down to two choices: either the Democratic Republic of the Congo all by its lonesome or some of the central Asian "-stans". I'm willing to do whichever would be better for the RP, since Africa is looking a bit crowded and I'm totally willing to consolidate some Central Asian goodness together.

DRC's history would be fairly similar, though without a Cold War I'm thinking that the Belgians probably would have been able to hold onto the colony longer, so there would have been some slightly better infrastructure. This would, of course, have gotten torn apart and brought them back to the normal post-independence level in the insurgency I'd see spreading across the country as the Belgians tried to hold on to a colony slipping away. Possibly some socialist nuggets of growth there? History is still a bit up since I'd need more of the surrounding history, but DRC would be about as it is now: pretty damn bad.

Central asia I have no idea on history, would need to work that out with what looks like a monarchist Russia that didn't reach as far as the Soviets. Probably soft power influenced, pro-Russian governments that eventually got tossed out by some means or another. Get the regional factions together and make one nice big feuding federal entity. I'd guess that the region might be slightly better off if Russia wasn't using it as their dumping grounds and forcing them to agriculturally destroy their land in search of cash crops, but corruption is probably even higher than it is today.

So, I'm eager to play either one. Both are interesting areas.

Samtonia:

I like your idea for the DRC, esspecially if there is a serious socialist element. After all the Strathdonians need something to be paranoid about...

Oh and you need Scuds so I cna justify having PAC-3s...

Honestly, I've just been attempting to work the history so the Japanese Empire is retained in some way/shape/form, so I'm fine with Spyr's idea.

The history of the "istan" countries, the real world soviet ones that is is that they separated from Kievskaya Rus as communist nations in the early 90's after a few years of civil war. Or that's the history I wrote for them since my original claim was for the former soviet union but on advice from the group I dropped Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Georgia, ect. See my factbook on the offsite forum for details, if you choose to play one or some of these countries but don't quite like the history you can give me a shout and we could work something out but my claim assumed control over them until 1988 and independence given in 1993.

A lot of Brazil's political history will depend on the various great powers, which sadly Brazil is not going to have been. So mainly I'm waiting for yall to decide the various political paradigms before I begin

I hope this is where I'm supposed to put the historical proposal. Because here it is.

1950: Association des Bakongo (ABAKO), an ethnically-oriented group that pushes for independence, is founded.

1954: Joseph Kasa-Vubu is elected leader of ABAKO.

1955: Belgian professor A.J. van Bilsen,publishes a treatise called "Thirty Year Plan for the Political Emancipation of Belgian Africa." The timetable calls for gradual emancipation of the Congo over a thirty year period and is condemned by Belgian leaders.

1956: The "Mouvement National Congolais" formed in opposition to continued Belgian colonization, taking a distinctly oppositional stance against van Bilsen's gradual emancipation plan.

1958: In face of growing support for the MNC, ABAKO announces its opposition to the timetable and also calls for immediate emancipation.

Early 1959: Internal split of the MNC averted after the moderate faction is intimidated by the murder of their leader, Joseph Kalonji (hacked to pieces by a radical leftist member of the MNC who may have been taking orders from Lumumba). Patrice Lumumba overwhelmingly elected to lead the nationalist group.

January 1969: ABAKO banned from meeting, Kasa-Vubu arrested and imprisoned by Belgian authorities.

March 1969: Massive riots sweep across Léopoldville as roundup of ABAKO leadership takes place. Military order is imposed on the city and, after two weeks of skirmishing, the riot is put down with over 5,000 casualties.

October 1969: MNC declared illegal political party; attempt to arrest leadership backfires as major riots occur in Stanleyville. 3,000 dead before riot is brought under control.

May 1970: Sham elections held and Belgian puppet government installed as victors; refuse to ratify any timetable for independence and declare the Belgian Congo a part of Belgian territory. Lumumba, speaking from an unkown location, demands the nullification of election results, release of Kasa-Vubu and ABAKO leadership within the month.

June 1970: Belgium refuses Lumumba's demands; Lumumba declares the Belgian-run government an enemy of the Congolese people. MNC and ABAKO members begin attacking government installations and personnel, state of emergency declared. Riots across the country claim the lives of over 20,000 Congolese and 1,000 Belgian and Congolese support staff.

July 1970: Plane carrying Kasa-vubu and other captured ABAKO leadership crashes while transporting the prisoners out of the country, all aboard die. Moderate members of both ABAKO and MNC radicalize in response to what they see as the beginning of Belgian attempts to decapitate their country's leadership. Riots bring country to a stand-still.

August 1970: All-out revolution erupts across the country as MNC absorbs ABAKO members into itself. Native forces horribly outgunned but outnumber the Belgians and their still-loyal troops.

1971: Cities have stabilized as Belgian-controlled, but insurgency across most of the Congo is a bleeding sore on Belgium's side. The southern progress of Katanga declares independence and is brutally crushed, over 8,000 Belgian troops swiftly capturing and executing the province's leader Moise Tshombe.

1972: Massive assault by MNC forces, trained and equipped after a year in the jungles, takes the Belgians by surprise; Stanleyville and all points east lost by the end of the year. Reports begin leaking out of political units executing suspected collaborators behind MNC lines.

1973: Luluaberg captured and recaptured multiple times throguhout the summer before finally falling to MNC forces in early fall. Lumumba announces formation of Soviets behind MNC lines and nationalization of Belgian-controlled commercial ventures.

1974: Katanga lost to Belgian forces, while massive anti-war protests erupt in universities across much of the Western world.

April 1975: Fall of Léopoldville as remaining Belgian officials and military forces evacuate from the capital as MNC forces approach; evacuation by helicopter leaves thousands of loaylist Congolese behind as Belgians flee the country. Mass executions sweep across the country as victorious MNC forces consolidate control and continue their nationalization efforts.

1976: The Belgian Congo renamed the Republic of Samtonia, derived from a mispronuciation of the Kongo "santu ntonda", or "holy gratitude."

1980: Lumumba, revered as the father of his nation, dies. Strongman Joseph Mobutu, underestimated by the other ruling members of the Socialist Party, seizes control as the General Secretary.

1997: Mobutu, after almost two decades of rule by fear and the growing of a cult of personality, dies. Laurent Kabila voted new General Secretary of the Socialist Party.

So, we get about the same death toll as through all the wars and such that RL Congo had due to the prolonged war against the Belgians and the mass killings in the purges that Mobutu starts. He gives us a Stalinist type of Marxism (Mobutuism?) and a blood-drenched, socialist/communist nation of blacks who are exceptionally angry at whites should be an interesting nation to have square in the middle of Africa.

Economy will be better, since the government can focus on that more than fighting huge wars, but it's not like it'll be an economic powerhouse.

Population of 66,514,506, sounds about right.
RL GDP/capita is $300. I think it could be increased a bit, maybe even to the ungodly heights of $1000?

If you'd prefer to do the Congo, I'll back you on it, since you seem to have come up with an excellent little timeline. On the other hand, I'd seriously like to suggest to you that you consider Central Asian communism, for two reasons. The first is that the area is quite empty at the moment apart from Kievskaya Rus, (hereafter referred to as Kaya, since Kievskaya Rus is a bit of a mouthful, and Kiev is already a city, and I like arbitrarily assigning people diminutives) and it could do with some development.

Secondly, it would give us a serious contender for 'Communist Power of Doom' since Dra Pol is too small and insular, BG is too small and crazy, and Spyr is too easy to reconcile with a capitalist economic system. But like I said, it's totally up to you.

(the capital of Kievskaya rus is Kiev. Feel free to just call it Kieven Rus, named for the historical predecessor of Ukraine and Russia)

Or what ever works for you.

More neighbours would be nice.

Ooh! I like the Congo Idea, Samtonia.

The Commonwealth of Bungussi and Djanvallaland covers the Republic of Congo, Gabon, and Equatorial Guinea, and is under white minority rule. Some one million or so whites enjoy great privilege and 1st world living standards while five million blacks are almost totally disenfranchised and living in poverty.

I am assuming two major (illegal) black parties and attached militant wings.

The Bungussi African People's Union (BANU), lead by one Abel Sara, is a left-wing movement influenced probably by Igovian Communism, and its military wing, the Bungussi Revolutionary People's Army (BIRPA) is active primarily in the rural Congo province of Bungussi.

The Djanvalla African National Union (DANU), lead by a Derek Igomo, is also left-leaning but takes a much harder line and is driven by black nationalism more than economic ideology. Active mostly in the coastal Djanvallaland province is its military section, the Djanvalla African National Liberation Army (DANLA). DANU/DANLA is larger than BANU/BIRPA, and has a higher profile due to its attacks on off-shore oil infrastructure.

The 'CBD' is outnumbered eleven to one next to the proposed Samtonia (arguably up to more than seventy to one when considering apartheid), but with a $9,950 per-capita GDP, its economy is almost the same size over all, and far more modern in Djanvallaland at least, where the PPP per-capita GDP figure for whites is higher than in the United States of Quinntonia. Needless to say, the minority government would be looking to use its oil and the threat of expansive Communism to foster western support, or at least toleration!

In other words, I think that Bungussi and Djanvallaland and Samtonia could make interesting neighbours!

Kievskaya Rus, I'm trying to knock up a history for the -stans and would really kind of need them to be able to break off from the larger Russia either right off the bat at the failed revolution or at some point during WWII.

What I'm looking at now is a communist central Asia that has to arm itself in fear of a giant Russian invasion and is a pretty consistently paranoid communist state. Which could mean that Western capitalism would have been helping to supply a communist state in an arms race against a monarchy. Which is kind of cool.

Economy better off due to policies that aren't coming out of Moscow, so even under the inefficiency of planned markets the much closer focus on the region leads to improved agriculture and industrial development and the like.

Kievskaya Rus, I'm trying to knock up a history for the -stans and would really kind of need them to be able to break off from the larger Russia either right off the bat at the failed revolution or at some point during WWII.

What I'm looking at now is a communist central Asia that has to arm itself in fear of a giant Russian invasion and is a pretty consistently paranoid communist state. Which could mean that Western capitalism would have been helping to supply a communist state in an arms race against a monarchy. Which is kind of cool.

Economy better off due to policies that aren't coming out of Moscow, so even under the inefficiency of planned markets the much closer focus on the region leads to improved agriculture and industrial development and the like.

Hi Samtonia,

Just a suggestion, but perhaps the central asian states aligned with the PR Chinese during the Sino-Soviet split of 1960?

What? you're trying to knock up history...

You could just go with the idea that they or it is only 15 years independent, Assume that they left with a ton of Russian technology and military equipment and quickly became a strong nation(s) with support from the PR of Chine.
Did you read my factbook on the off site form?
http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=100
I'd ask that you see if you can make your history work with what I've done already rather than rewrighting it. But let me know what you're trying to do with it. The problem with the separation of these states is that it's kind of the climax Tsar Yevgeny's failure and really adds to the mess that Tsar Anton had to deal with when he came to power.

Err... I dont mean to be rude to a new member, Kievskaya, but I think what your talking about is actually one of the major issues which motivated AMW to reset its history in the first place... states which were supposedly open for new players were bogged down in pre-existing history to which their ideas had to conform. Ultimately, we decided that this time around we'd try to avoid that sort of thing, limiting ourselves to suggested histories and ultimately making changes to accomodate new players with new ideas. While the best solution here would be to work towards something mutually acceptable, we wont really be starting off fresh if we're imposing historical events on regions outside our claims.

Okay, fair enough. These nations were part of my original claim of the entire soviet union but I dropped them by request of the community to keep them open for other players.

But I kept them as part of my history to have a soviet equivalent for WWII and the Cold war, something also requested by the community.

Anyway, I agree that folks need to be able to play the nations want to, I'm just wondering if the nation Samtonia wants could fit within this situation I've created. If not, okay then I guess I'll have to rewrite my history again.
But I'm confused. Is Samtonia claiming the Congo or central asia? Or proposing both (but only one of them is to be accepted) or claiming both?

So let me know what you want to do then. I am capable of working with it. The only thing I'd suggest is that splitting during WWII or during kieven rus hey day's of the 50s-60s doesn't make much sense, splitting during the civil war (1920) or sometime during the 70s or 80s works best.

Okay, so I'll respond to the confusion. I'm putting together a proposal for Central Asia- what Gurg... and you said about lack of other nations in much of Asia makes sense. We can keep the Congolese history if no one else claims it (because having a big communist state in the middle of Africa is fun) with only minor changes (like the arms coming from the big Central Asian communist country-o-doom).

You won't need major rewrite to your history- not like Central Asia really ever mattered that much to the Soviets or Russian Empire in terms of.... well, anything except a few minerals they could find elsewhere and prestige. If this were Eastern Europe/Balts it might be requiring a major change but I don't think you'll have to do any huge changes.

As far as I can tell, the easiest point of departure is that the Basmachi Revolt succeeds (starts in 1916) and is heavily tinged by communist ideology, but not that of the Bolsheviks. I'll get an actual history up, along with problems that will need solutions in terms of the history.

Doom was still interested in his Middle East claim. I'd back him, but I'm curious to hear what you guys have to say.

Refresh my memory, I haven't really time to search the thread, but I expect that Doom is a capable enough RPer to fit in all right in AMW, right?

The proposal itself was a bit short, but it essentially involved a preserved (or restored?) Caliphate in Arabia, which seems a rather interesting idea.

Hm, works for me.

Also, Gurg, "BG is too small and crazy" I resent that! [shakes tiny fist, crazily]

Ah, seriously though, as a wise man once said, crazy beats big every time! There'll be Igovians all over the place, giving the world plenty of reasons to strike the BDR. Meanwhile the BDR will be making the most of its fifty billion dollars of yearly defence expenditure and habitual violence to give the world plenty of reasons to reconsider.

Okay, founding history. Hopefully it all works, I tried to meld it to what you wanted Kievskaya Rus. I'll try to get on more recent stuff, but I need to know a few things: is there a Communist International or do we get to found it? Who wants to help supply this new country as a thorn in the side of the Russians- I assumed USQ or the Brits, but that's just an assumption and I could be very wrong.


While the ideological seeds of anti-Western movements were sown by the Kievskaya Rusians across much of the 3rd World, relatively little effort was spent in safeguarding some of the more autonomous portions of the Russian Empire against the ideologies that were being so aggressively pushed across much of the world. As a result, the discredited ideals of Marxism tumbled out of the dustbin of history and directly into the dust pan of Central Asia. The region, long under control of Kiev and its massive bureaucratic apparatus, had steadily chafed under the yoke of outside influence. Revolts had sprung up over religious identity, national liberation, and the stage was now set for yet another explosion of the mountains and steppes into an anti-Russian fervor.

As dissidents were carted off by the hundreds, the Marxist forces bided their time. At first, little more than strident ideological debates were waged, yet the tendrils of Marxist influence slowly crept into the darkened halls of statecraft and society. The movement counted greater and more influential members of government amongst its numbers, who sought to co-opt the movement into a platform to realize their ambitions. After fierce infighting, Valenti Akayev, mid-level career bureaucrat, would emerge as the leader of the movement. Under his tutelage, the revolutionaries would begin amassing weapons and plans while awaiting the opportunity that would eventually come with confusion from Kiev.

Tsar Nikolaj’s steady decline under the influence of Alzheimer’s provided just that opportunity. As he weakened and courtiers circled about the throne like vultures, the affairs of Central Asia retreated further and further from influential circles. The region was isolated, politically speaking, and absolutely no attention was being paid to it. That was the opening. In a little under a week, Marxists had seized control of the majority of government. Military bases fell without a shot as guards stood by and allowed their countrymen to breach the arsenals, the press was quickly taken over by revolutionaries, and the Kievskaya Rusian flag was hauled unceremoniously from flagpoles in front of government buildings across the region.

But the action that, above all, helped the June Revolution to succeed was the seizure of “special weapons” sites around the region. Fighting over those was bloody, as the troops were crack units intensely loyal to the Tsar. But there was no way for them to follow protocol- the units attacking them were certainly not Western and their commanders had no intention of starting a nuclear holocaust due to some rebellious locals. So they stood and fought, destroying what systems they could. In many cases, the missiles and command complexes were wrecked. But enough were captured that, as word got out to Kiev that this was not simply a small local action and army columns were moving towards the Kazakh border, Akayev’s government of the proletariat announced to the world that nuclear devastation would be visited upon the lands of the Tsar should those units cross the borders. What followed was a bellicose game of international diplomacy masquerading as a game of chicken: the columns moved closer as targets were dialed into launch computers, using codes that had been obtained through many different channels both proper and improper.

The Russians blinked first and probably saved the world from annihilation. Over the next week, as enemies of the Revolution were rounded up and shot and Akayev consolidated his party’s control, a deal was reached with Kiev. The Russians throughout the country that were high ranking and not involved in the revolt were repatriated, allowed to depart with their lives and families intact if not the majority of their possessions. A non-aggression pact was signed. Some trade deals were agreed upon and certain military documents were returned. Akayev held the aces, his nuclear forces primed and ready or at least ready in the minds of those from Kiev, which was struggling with a national leader near death and his courtiers and heirs openly feuding in the halls of power. Confusion and threat of mutual death were the founding fathers of the newly-declared United Samtonian People’s Republic. Its leaders, following a branch of Marxist ideology popularized by the Russian Dolohov Samton that was indigenous to the region, were soon busily collectivizing the newly-formed nation.

That would depend on the date, I think... I'd imagined that the AMW equivalent of the Communist International had evolved from the links between Chinese, Spyran, and Drapoel revoluitonaries, who had been united (and often operated across each other's borders) in their struggle against Japanese imperialism. Such an organisation, after the successful revolutionary period 1945-49, followed by the Korean War to underline the danger still posed by imperial enemies, would have likely been rather energized to pursue the dream of world revolution and offered support to leftist parties around the world, a stance which would have been neutered by Spyran pressure through the 1970s as Cold War dynamics pushed the leftists into bed with London and Washington against the Tsar, resulting in a modern organisation which officially endorses a Popular Front approach of collaboration with other political groups and obedience to the established democratic process in Western states (along with an end to revolutionary or disruptive efforts in those states) as part of a shared anti-imperial/anti-monarchist struggle.
In such a context, Spyr and the PRC may well have served as a source of support for Central Asian communists, safe conduits for Quinntonian and British aid to flow deniably to those fighting against Russia through states who were already openly hostile to the Tsar.

If the revolution in Central Asia occured prior to 1949, then it would have emerged as the first Communist nation upon the world stage, and roles would be reversed... almost certainly it would have turned out some version of the Communist International, which could then have had a hand in helping the Chinese-Spyran-Drapoel revolutions oust Japan.

Yeah, spport for Progressive elements, even as a pawn against our Russian rivals would definately have to come from the British or perhaps German. Though, indirectly, aid would flow from USQ to them. WE would aid Germany and UK, and they would in turn aid you.

ouch, that's a big loss for a country. Yeah, we're rebelling for independence and we're taking your nukes with us.

So the one major question I have is when this happened. You mentioned this happened at the end of Tsar Nikolaj's reign, so 1970-1972ish?
Samtonia is Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Krygystan?

Okay then, I'll say that sudden war was enough of a political upset for Yevgeny to force Nikolaj's abdication and from a an international view Yevgeny backing down from this "game of chicken" (I like that) may have saved the world from nuclear war. In Kieven Rus the popular opinion is that this was just the first of many great mistakes and compromises that lead to a the empires twenty year "great decline".
Okay, so is anyone who shares a border with KR even remotely friendly?

You sort of share a sea border with Courbornne, and I don't think that Imperial Japan would be unfriendly to you. Um, you're pretty fucking scary though, as in one of three or so Big Scary Superpowers, so I think you're okay.

I'll ask Doom to knock out a more detailed claim.

Aye, Japan and Russia have obviously had a tumultuous past, but we would definitely see Russia as a lesser evil as compared to the communists in China/Korea. We're opening up to the US, but our relations would still probably be better than mine and the US's.

Hellooo. Er, I think we need a bit more momentum. Nice to see one or two RP threads kicking off, but I still sense a modicum of chaos in the air and see a slackening of new applications.

I'm thinking an overview thread that sums up history for everyone to see is now somewhat overdue. I was trying to write-up a Korean summation, but kept screwing it up and starting again until I settled tentatively on using a timeline system to let people know a bit about how real-life events fit -or not- into AMW Korea while giving AMW newbies a taste of the character of Dra-pol.

If we were to all end up doing something like this, until most of the world was covered, perhaps we could all post them in one thread, and the opening post could include links to each individual post?

A quick first draft of the Drapoel example, of course others would not follow the same breakdown of historical periods:

Pre-industrial peak: Drapoel Empire covers Korean peninsula. Animist state practices absolute autarky and is militant in its isolationism, refusing all contact with the outside world for sometimes generations at a stretch.

Early C20th: Corbournne/Japan Empire imposes itself in Korea, occupying much territory by force. Coasts, south, and major towns and cities fall under Japanese control. Emperor Wiman, the last Drapoel monarch, offers weak resistance by Drapoel historic standards leading to the growth of rebel groups and bandits in the mountainous northern interior.

WWII: By the 1930s, Wiman has first become a Japanese puppet and then been over-thrown as a rebel under the nom de guerre Sulo unites anti-Japanese resistance, creating a base of operations in the mountains between Pyongyang and Hamhung, called Da'Khiem. Suloist contact with Spyrian and Chinese revolutionaries in the course of anti-Japanese resistance sees evolution of rebel ideology from nationalist and accidentally republican to Maoist(?) and leads to the usurpation by one Kurosian of politically naive Sulo's leadership. Choson People's Republic of Dra-pol (CPRD) proclaimed in northern Korea, with Da'Khiem as its capital. Korean People's Army (KPA) and Imperial Japanese Army(?) fight to standstill near 38th parallel.

Korean War: 'War of National Liberation' launched in 1950 after several years of uneasy ceasefire, Kurosite KPA invades occupied southern Korea. Japanese aerial and naval supremacy sees rampant KPA ground forces halted at Busan Perimeter. IJA counter offensive forces KPA into Long Retreat and traps Kurosite force against Yalu, devastating Dra-pol in the process. Relief in the form of large forces from the People's Republic of Spyr turns the tables once more, enabling CPRD to regain 38th parallel lines. After three years of fighting and with more than three million dead, nothing has been achieved. Kurosite CPRD withdraws into Socialist autarky.

1980s: Roman missionaries in East Asia report sinking of alleged refugee boat by KPA Coast Guard, Rome sends expedition to make contact with CPRD. Three Day War sparked amidst great confusion. Roman Dra-pol enclave established around Hamhung. Kurosian's Rage, renewed conflict sees KPA fail to retake enclave despite heavy casualties against heavy static defences and Roman naval bombardment. Director Kurosian assassinated, allegedly by Roman agents, on rare visit to PR China. Secretary Hotan, wounded in another assassination attempt in which three European attackers are killed, assumes national leadership as third Director of the CPRD.

1990s: Following leadership change, attention returns to Japan. KPA storms DMZ (demilitarised zone) on the 38th parallel in Reunification War, liberating Seoul, Gangwon-do, Gyeonggi-do, Incheon. Unified People's Army (UPA) created when southerners sign-up to fight the Japanese occupation. Stunned by the scale and speed of the offensive, Japan makes the first ever use of nuclear weapons in warfare, launching a tactical nuclear strike on General Hozaro's 100th Assault Division north of Andong, breaking the attack. Ceasefire returns with Drapoel, Japanese armies facing one another along the southern borders of Gangwon-do and Gyeonggi-do.

C21st: Hotanite reforms begin as enlarged CPRD reopens ties with PR Spyr, PR China and industrialisation overtakes chiefly agrarian society.



Hm, so, now that I've typed it up, time to step back and look at what I've actually got...

I'm wondering about the whole nuke thing. First, I know we couldn't really figure a way to fit a nuclear bombing into WWII. I think that's too bad because it kind of takes some fear out of a potential nuclear war during the cold war era. Second, doesn't it seem odd that a south east Asian nation would be the first nation to use a nuclear strike? I know this isn't the real world so we don't need to be bound to real world stuff, but, just a thought.

Well, I wouldn't really call Japan "South East Asian," but besides that, we're talking about the '90s, so nukes would hardly be limited to Europe and North America. Japan, having maintained positions in both Korea and Formosa, would have seen steady industrial and economic growth following the war, leaving it's economy in at least as a good a position as its in. With the ever-present militaristic atmosphere of the society, the production of nuclear weapons would be nothing far-fetched.

Nevertheless, if the rest of the players have qualms with said use of nukes, perhaps something else could be worked out.

Indeed, I'm not quite sure what would be so odd about Japan being the first nation to use a nuclear weapon, at least in an AMW context. Still, it might be worth giving a thought to nuclear history between Quinntonia's first successful tests and the current 'first use' in 1990s Korea, particularly to answer the question of wether other nuclear attacks have occured in that time. The possibility isnt that unlikely, given differing attitudes probably mean countries with nuclear weapons access still probably deploy nuclear artillery shells, nuclear torpedoes, and other tactical weapons as part of standard formations.

Events in Korea also seem to speak to the possibility that strategic nuclear attacks aren't considered for opening engagements... conflicts begin conventionally, and it is only when one side sees defeat as imminent that they employ nuclear weapons to reduce enemy advantages and save themselves. Would mean that, in international politics, people wouldnt be afraid of the consequences of going to war so much as the consequences of winning that war. Which for practical purposes means that the preference is for limited war over specific regional objectives rather than total war to accomplish regime change/unconditional surrender/etc (not too far from the preference for proxy wars during the RL Cold War, though in an AMW equivalent of the Cuban Missile Crisis there probably would have been fire exchanged and casualties taken before an eventual settlement was reached, given officers wouldnt have been as afraid that one misplaced shot would immediately spark armageddon).

--------------------

Drapoel history looks good from this end... likely there would still be some tensions between Sithin and Da'khiem over the Reunification War, as the PRS would have seen the CPRD as risking destruction and global market instability by provoking Japan, while the Drapoel would have expected the Spyrans to live up to their rhetoric (and actions during the Korean War) in supporting a war to liberate southern Korea from the Japanese Empire, only to find that the Lyongese had gone soft in the intervening years and preferred yelling about the great anti-Imperial struggle to actually doing anything about it, at least unless they got Washington's permission first .

Japanese nuclear weapons use would probably have tipped the balance of Spyran opinion towards supporting the Choson, with the PRS threatening deployment of its own nuclear arsenal should Tokyo continue such attacks, which may have been a factor in achieving the uncomfortable stalemate now seen.

------------------------

On an unrelated matter, I've been looking into how Spyran military equipment would have turned out, given the differences between AMW and RL history. In RL, most Communist states draw their initial template from the equipment of the USSR, but (particularly in terms of China and Spyr) that wouldnt be the case in AMW. An infusion of Russian equipment did occur with revolutions in the BDR (and possibly central Asia), but that would be at the earliest in the 1970s, leaving several decades of Cold War tensions where weapons would have to be acquired or developed from another source, which (given the AMW Cold War context) means Britain and the USQ.

Lyongese F86 Sabres and Russian MiG-17s playing chicken over the Stanovoys?

Yeah, I don't see any problem with Japan being the first to use nuclear weapons. Slightly ironic from without, but not from the point of view of any AMW characters.

And yeah, after the May Revolution of 1982, the Beddgelens (previously just Geletians) were suddenly in a position to supply Russian technology to left-wing states, but until then there's no obvious way for the Communists to have accessed MiGs and so on. Then of course we didn't get any significant Russian technology developed after the very early 80s (and to be realistic, the Geletians probably didn't get Russian equipment the minute that Russia did, so our access probably stops in the late 70s).

Of course at the same time, the Geletians/Beddgelens have a significant domestic defence industry only partly influenced by the Russians. Probably we never got jets more advanced than MiG-21 from them. I'll be using modified IAR aircraft for the most part. And our tanks are based on the T-55 and T-72 but extensively modified.

I think that Spyr's assessment of the nuclear situation is pretty fair so far. Still lots of questions to be answered, I'm sure. I am currently quite lost on whether or not to give the BDR a nuclear programme. Would the slightly different AMW mindset make the Russians more or less likely to deploy nuclear forces in the Geletian Principality? Strategic, or tactical? Would the BDR even bother to pursue nuclear armament in this environment?

Ah, AMW is infuriatingly interesting. But I'm about to run down my brother's laptop battery, so I'd better go.

okay, I actually misread and was thinking that Dar-Pol had launched the nukes. Japan makes more sense.
On another note, would people mind if I took Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia as part of my claim? not so make them part of the empire but to secure them as an npc to use for history and future conflict. Let me know what you think, I understand now the whole problem with npcs so I figured the only safe way to have an important npc is to make it part of my claim. That's about 15 million people or so. I don't have my heart too set on this so if people don't think it's a good idea I'll drop it.

As BG, I am still thinking about a possible German nuclear programme.
Currently, I merely suppose that, as in RL, German forces were dedicated for using Quinntonian tactical warheads on German carriers (Tornados, artillery, and the like), but that there is still a larger quantity stored in Germany, given the tense political situation in Europa and a probably nuclear armed Rome.

However, I'm not sure if the AMW-current gouvernment, which is made up of social democrats, libertarians and the green party, would be that inclined towards domestic nuclear bombs, especially the green guys and girls, even though their devastating power has not been proven.
Any advice?

Probably time to give this a kick. We've got a couple of threads going, after all, which can be found linked through the off-site forums.

As to nuclear programmes, I've gone with having a few Russian-era research reactors built in the Principality and some nuclear material and equipment kept there, most of which the BDR inherited after the revolution. So, to begin with, we have some nuclear knowhow and materials, but no active input to the national grid and no warheads. At Akink we've just announced our intention to pursue nuclear power, and so we're in a good position thanks to inherited technology and are a potential or fringe nuclear power but not a realised one.

Probably that doesn't help Germany much, but that's my position incase anyone wants to know where we stand.

Well, to sum it up, the nuclear course I'm planning for Germany is similar to TL-Cold War, i.e. that German units might deliver US-provided tactical weapons (vie aircraft/artillery/missiles) and is otherwise under the "nuclear umbrella" of the USQ.
The same might go for Cassanos. However, it ought to be common knowledge in AMW that both nations, as most other modern industrialized countries in RL, would be able to produce nuclear weapons quickly, since the know-how and the materials are already there. I assume that an unwieldy German fission bomb might be produced within weeks, though it would take rather more time to optimize it and fit it into a delivery mechanism.
But neither Germany nor Cassanos, as of now, plan any such thing.

Well, Id like to scrap my earlier Angola proposal (which quite frankly seems ridiculous... thats what you get for coming up iwth this stuff at 1AM), and just go with having a semi independant Indian Colony of the British Empire, which Gurg has backed :D

Spiz, not to be a douche, but I've actually not said that I'm fully in favor of it or fully against it. Honestly, I need to see more information. While I like the idea of a sort of modern Raj ICly (as in, it's good for my nation that you make this claim) I'm not sure what I think OOCly and would like to see more information. Sorry if I gave you a different impression on IRC, but for the most part I'm reserving judgment until I see more information along the lines of economy, proposed storyline or whatever, and the rest.

Coul I take Iraq, Kuwait?

May I?

You can find most of the information you need if you read the first post. There you can see if your claim is still free. AMW also expects a rough outline of how you intend to play your nation, a little history, political system and so on, maybe also a sample of your RPing.

I would like to claim the nations of Colombia and Venezuela.

I intend to play these South American nations as a revival of Simon Bolivar's nation, "La Gran Colombia".

Brief History: After a fierce conflict between Colombian and Venezuelan forces, Colombian troops take over Venezuela. They impose a similar democratic system as Colombia has at the moment but with fewer rights than the central government in Bogotá. After a few years of revolts and aggressive demonstrations from the former Venezuelan people, both territories are at peace and working for a better integration of the people of the Gran Colombia.

Political System: Federalist Republic where executive power dominates government structure

Is this ok for now?

This is definetely not for me to decide, Gurg or someone like him should judge this.
However, personally I think that South America could do with some more players, and your concept seems interesting.

East Laos, obviously, needs to tell us a lot more before that claim can be seriously considered.

The Royal-Union's bid looks at least promising, to me. I should probably say that you don't necessarily have to use the real countries -Colombia and Venezuela, I mean- as a base. If you wanted, it might be equally possible to say that Gran Colombia never completely broke-up. We don't really have a cut-off point for when you can change history to, so long as it fits with other players and everyone's happy.

I wonder if Trostia still wants to do his Brazil thing? South America will be an authoritarian right-leaning haven at this rate! Not that authoritarian right-leaning governments have to like one another, I suppose...

Spizania's claim too of course needs expanding upon. Minority rule or native? How much of India? How wealthy? All that sort of thing.

With the USQ, British Empire, Russian Empire, Roman Empire, Japan, Germany-Cassanos the PR Spyr, and perhaps the PRC at least we have an over-abundance of great powers already. I wouldn't mind seeing places like India broken-up again a fair bit. I mean, there are Indian states with over a hundred million people, and more European nation-sized states than you can shake a chapati at. I have to keep reminding myself how much I'm liking my new Euro BG in order to keep myself from going back to South India or Dravidistan or some Greater Bengal or something like that.

Agreed. If Spiz takes all of India, I'd like to see it as a rather poor state like RL India, or perhaps he can cut down the size of it and have a sort of British Indian remnant. I mean, if we ever get any sort of activity out of AMW, we're going to have a lot of great powers floating around. That was a hint, by the way, to AMW. Get off of your asses and RP! Now! Argh!

*foams at mouth*

The proposal for an Indian nation is for non-democratic rule by the Viceroy/Governor General appointed by the British crown, with the parts of the modern state of India that were ruled by Indian princes during the real raj remaining under the control of the descendants of those princes, and simply under the suzerainty of the British Indian state.
The economy of India would be similar to IRL, perhaps even a bit poorer, but would have a higher HDI index to represent the British and Indians reinvesting the vast income from taxation into the infrastructure that is actually required to keep the locals alive, without actually making them richer or significantly better educated. Other improvements such as the pursuit of a massive literacy program would be restrained by the interests of the British crown in not having the prestige of the "homeland" damaged by having a colony surpass it in terms of wealth and influence.
In addition the princely states would scheme with each other and against each other to increase there individual power at the expense of the Viceroy or each other, resulting in assasinations and the like, and perhaps the occasional revolt that is brutally put down by the British Indian Army. In addition there would be institutional restrictions in the rank to which officers of local ethnicity could rise, and restrictions on the service of any sepoy officers and senior NCOs in artillery units (anyone remember the Sepoy Mutiny?)
In addition, the Viceroy would occasionally have differences of opinion with the crown, who wishes to restrain the Indian colony from attempting to reassert its influence on the "provinces in revolt" (Burma, Bangladesh, Pakistan and perhaps Ceylon) which although the crown would love to regain, is scared that allowing them to be reassorbed into the Indian colony would simply increase its power and possibly lead to the surpassing of the homeland that they so fear. Meanwhile the Industrial Growth of the nation would be entirely handled by British based companies, allowing the crown to siphon off a large amount of money from the Indian subcontinent to prop up its slowly rotting empire elsewhere in the globe, and it would also lean on the Viceroy to provide troops and support to any colonial operations undertaken elsewhere, usually to the extent of the deployment of British Indian Army units (Ghurkas anyone :D ) or ships of the British Indian Navy in support

Is Israel claimed?

Given Spiz' description, I'm for it. That said, I don't know the UK would be so terribly concerned about India 'surpassing the homeland' as simply starting a bunch of unnecessary wars with Asian states. Also, I wouldn't require that development be done by British companies, because that runs contrary to the free-trade ethos of the Empire. Additionally, I would probably lean on the viceroy to liberalize British India, rather than the other way around, and would be concerned with occasional human rights issues. Obviously not to the point of actually doing anything, but I might periodically make a statement to that effect to mitigate the negative PR.

EDIT: I do not believe so, Mac.

So is my claim official or there's someone that must still accept the claim?

I would just be looking for Israel, since I don't really find it realistic that it would "own" anything else. One that resembles Israel during the 1960s, moreso than it would resemble an Israel today. For the most part, a paranoid Israel, scared about another Arab-Israeli War, and so a very militarily developed Israel. In this sense, it would also be somewhat belligerent, looking to create buffer zones (i.e. Sinai). But, for the most part I'm looking forward to region-centered role-playing, as opposed to world scale politics.

How would your version of India work with my version of the Guptas (described earlier in the thread), Spiz?

I'd encourage you to say that Gran Colombia never broke up, to avoid those awkward annexation things. Generally when you annex somewhere, you have to remember to RP a secessionist movement, since very few people actually want to be annexed.

Er, anyhow. I rather like the Gran Colombia idea, I guess.