NationStates Jolt Archive

This is fun.

sorry for not posting in awhile, I was trying to figure out exactly what I sent over. XD

Also, with AMF involved, I won't be able to do as much, as Derscon is, in fact, a member of NATO.

I'll toss up a list tomorrow, TPF.

As TPF and I cannot agree on my military strength, he has seen fit to ignore my forces and as such I shall be withdrawing from this RP. I would recommend it be retconned but that is just a suggestion. Now Nova Europan Wanderjar will be put on "hold" and the South African Wanderjar begun. I'll have an intro thread put up soon enough. Feel free to establish diplomatic relations, however this nation shall be quite different from my old one.


EDIT: Oh and I'd like to add that, for TPF's consolation, I don't mean that in a derogatory or negative sense. I'm still cool with ya :-)

Ah... so you were arguing about that over telegrams. I was wondering about the lack of OOC posts about it.

Ah... so you were arguing about that over telegrams. I was wondering about the lack of OOC posts about it.

actually MSN, but details details...:p

And on Draftroom, but yes, now we have to figure out exactly how we work around this or maybe I just have to suck it up and fight.

TPF, just deal with it, doom/amf will rescue you soon enough, and you have Sumer[Dostanuot Loj] who has like over 1mil tanks :P

Yeah, if you guise want me to, I'll just suck it up. Have some things planned for it, anyway.

As TPF and I cannot agree on my military strength, he has seen fit to ignore my forces and as such I shall be withdrawing from this RP. I would recommend it be retconned but that is just a suggestion. Now Nova Europan Wanderjar will be put on "hold" and the South African Wanderjar begun. I'll have an intro thread put up soon enough. Feel free to establish diplomatic relations, however this nation shall be quite different from my old one.


EDIT: Oh and I'd like to add that, for TPF's consolation, I don't mean that in a derogatory or negative sense. I'm still cool with ya :-)

Well, this...is interesting.

@ the general situation: Oy vey. So if Wanderjar is gone... there's a gaping hole in the middle of Nova Europa? How are we going to work around that? This is getting quite exasperating.

@ Allanea: Exactly whom are you supporting here?

@ Trivalvia: I completely blanked out on what I wrote in that last TG :p
Was that a "yes, go ahead," or a "yes, I do mind?" I'm going to post in the IC thread soon, so if it's a, "yes, I do mind," I'll edit or delete the post accordingly.

@ Doom: I might be reading what you said wrong, but it seems like the gist of it was, "If we win, what TPF says, goes, or else." How is that really any different than occupying a nation and making it do what you want?

OK... I'm one once a week as is known by most NE nations so I post slow, sorry for that but its an unchangeable circumstance. I have a lot of reading to do too so please bear with me... I'll try to make a post shortly... and please excuse meif I don't respond to everyything.. perhaps it woud be a good idea to TG or E-mail me every time something pertaining to me happens, thanks.

It took me 3 1/2 hours just to read all the IC and OOC stuff. I don't have time to post currently but I will be back later and maybe I'll post then. I have work to get done in the meantime.

My time is constrained further as my girlfreind got hit by a car last Sunday on her way to church so thee is no garanteee I can formulate a post currently; appologies to anyone who is aggravated by this... stuff it if that aint enough.

OK... I'm one once a week as is known by most NE nations so I post slow, sorry for that but its an unchangeable circumstance. I have a lot of reading to do too so please bear with me... I'll try to make a post shortly... and please excuse meif I don't respond to everyything.. perhaps it woud be a good idea to TG or E-mail me every time something pertaining to me happens, thanks.

I'll do that next time something happens.

It took me 3 1/2 hours just to read all the IC and OOC stuff. I don't have time to post currently but I will be back later and maybe I'll post then. I have work to get done in the meantime.

My time is constrained further as my girlfreind got hit by a car last Sunday on her way to church so thee is no garanteee I can formulate a post currently; appologies to anyone who is aggravated by this... stuff it if that aint enough.

Wow, that's pretty tough. I hope she's okay. That's perfectly understandable.

To those concerned NEA guys, I aint goin anywhere yet.

-snip-

No satellites over Nova Europa should work for much longer, given the amount of debris and ASAT missiles buzzing around up there.

I can deploy everything I have within a few days, bear in mind, so this list could become redundant quickly.

1st and 2nd Army Groups being moved to Nova Britannia in anticipation of losing further supply lines there. Approximately 140,000 men enroute.

1st-5th Marine Expeditionary Units already deployed in Nova Britannia, approximately 40,000 men.

1st-5th Carrier Groups deployed in the Atlantic, of which eight out of ten carriers are operational.

As yet no fighters are being based in Trivalvia or Nova Britannia, although my bombers are easily within striking distance.

Hit my ORBAT thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=538711) if you like, although my army shown on there is being augmented with reserves due to mass mobilisations a couple of weeks ago.

Doomingsland: How on earth are you targeting those cruise missiles? I've built a dispersed base across a valley and the surrounding area and you haven't roleplayed any scouting attempts to find it. Satellite coverage is intermittent at best because of the debris above the continent and radar is only going to tell you that aircraft are landing in the general vicinity.

TWSP, I am still awaiting that post edit from you.

Unfortunately for you, the satellites don't have to cross OVER Nova Europa, they could by buzzing down farther south and their visual horizion will allow them to see stuff over 16,052km away [from their point on the surface] if placed into a Medium Earth Orbit the same altitude as GPS satellites.

This allows them to keep a good distance from the debris field, I personally have four MEO orbits going around NE with 5 satellites each, enough so that one satellite from each orbit is in the vicinity at all time.

Mind you, that places the center of Nova Europea outside my viewing range. Well, at least until I throw something into GEO.

That brings up another question, could someone give me a scale of NE, I know TPF is like the size of russia, but that doesn't really help...

EDIT: OH, Naasha, I think doom is attacking saintB, not you.

TSS, why are you deploying 9,500 ships...?

TSS, why are you deploying 9,500 ships...?

What?

I'm deploying 2054 ships. Oh, wait I see, I forgot to remove the Naval Fleet x12 tag, that's how many fleets are in my navy total, I'm only deploying two here.

Also, whoever launched the 45k missiles at me, which missile are you using?

It took me 3 1/2 hours just to read all the IC and OOC stuff. I don't have time to post currently but I will be back later and maybe I'll post then. I have work to get done in the meantime.

My time is constrained further as my girlfreind got hit by a car last Sunday on her way to church so thee is no garanteee I can formulate a post currently; appologies to anyone who is aggravated by this... stuff it if that aint enough.
Wow...take all the time you need dude, I hope she's alright.

Doomingsland: How on earth are you targeting those cruise missiles? I've built a dispersed base across a valley and the surrounding area and you haven't roleplayed any scouting attempts to find it. Satellite coverage is intermittent at best because of the debris above the continent and radar is only going to tell you that aircraft are landing in the general vicinity.
As TSS said, my satellites could be a very good distance away from NE and still see what's going on, either medium or high orbit. Please adjust losses as necessary, and keep in mind that a Linebacker is going to have absolutely pitiful performance against a supersonic low altitude cruise missile. That cannon has a very low rate of fire and thus is very ill-suited to dealing with supersonic cruise missiles, and stingers aren't terribly suited to dealing with cruise missiles either.

Also, I never rped commencing my attack from my SEAD aircraft, that has yet to come.

Also, whoever launched the 45k missiles at me, which missile are you using?

That's Ezaltia. He mentioned using missiles purchased from Doomingsland, but that's all I know. He should be on later today.

TWSP, I am still awaiting that post edit from you.

I wont edit it any further, the post is okay as it is.

I wont edit it any further, the post is okay as it is.

Did you edit it to include what we talked about? Or no?

Also, whoever launched the 45k missiles at me, which missile are you using?

I actually have no idea, although I can't imagine it'd matter too much.

I actually have no idea, although I can't imagine it'd matter too much.

Actually it really does, I need to know its capabilities and range... Otherwise I'll assume Harpoons.

Actually it really does, I need to know its capabilities and range...

All right, then let's call it the Ezaltian variant of the Harpoon, but about a quarter-again as heavy with a range of 350 km.

All right, then let's call it the Ezaltian variant of the Harpoon, but about a quarter-again as heavy with a range of 350 km.

Okay. Post will be up a little later

Did you edit it to include what we talked about? Or no?

Part of it.

Part of it.

Alright.

-snip-

Thanks for the satellite information, I wasn't aware of that. I guess it means space based weapons and radar are still impossible though?

Doom is attacking me, I'm 'the newcomers'. I'll edit my post removing the second part in a moment, but I'd like to clear up that I'm actually using a whole variety of AA weaponry for the interceptions, not just the linebackers as I understand they have poor anti-missile capability. Patriots and a domestic variant, the Starfire missile, are my main missile defences.

Well, I go away for 24 hours and look what happens...

Well, Novacom, if you and TSS are planning to invade me, at the very least I need to get cracking on my ground forces ORBAT. Who knew war would generate so much paperwork? :p

Siriusa - that's a "yes, go ahead" - sorry for the confusion.

Lastly, an invitation that if I make a mistake in some of my naval battle posts, feel free to correct me.

Trivalvia, take a hint from what happened to my second carrier group and get your ships back to either your mainland or my main fleet. They are a very, very tempting target out there. :p

Siriusa - that's a "yes, go ahead" - sorry for the confusion.

Perfect! :D I'll get working right away.

Naasha: good point, although I may have to "suck it up" and take the losses. After all, the commanders of both of my deployed forces are a little on the "stubborn" side... ;)

Siriusa: thanks in advance for the assist!

Siriusa: thanks in advance for the assist!

Np, TG.

I really appreciate you telling us what you're doing with your fleet. ;0

I really appreciate you telling us what you're doing with your fleet. ;0

Is that directed at Me, TPF, Naasha, Trivalvia, Ezaltia, Questers, AMF, or someone else?

If it's at me, I can't decide if you're being sarcastic.

Is that directed at Me, TPF, Naasha, Trivalvia, Ezaltia, Questers, AMF, or someone else?

If it's at me, I can't decide if you're being sarcastic.

You really... couldn't tell anything from it then? ;)

You really... couldn't tell anything from it then? ;)

Well that depends on who wrote whatever I have... to... tell... from... it?

*Wonders to self about grammar*

Naasha got it ;O

I couldn't either, if that is any consolation.

TWSP I'm dragging this in here, as this is what an OOC Thread is for, I will be blunt on this since I care little for OOC Bitchfests, it's not directed at you it's directed against Naasha, and it's perfectly reasonable, especially as I'm convinently ignoring the not so slivght issue of any strikes against Outsider Positions with any sort of precision beinf a no go considering the complete lack of RPed reconaisance.

I'm being fairly reasonable as well, as I could for example carpet bomb with chemical weapons, or I could do a myriad of other more extreme things yet I've done something completly different, it's not massivley destructive, and it in essence amounts to giving a bunch of pilots waking nightamres and unlocking their deepest fears, it is hardly say major mind twisting like say doing whats done in the RA2 Opening.

This is hardly something I've conjured up out of nowhere either, I've RPed the development of such things over the course of a few years now, and this is hardly being used against an army group, it is being used against 30 odd bombers and their crews, as I said in the beginning of the OOC Thread, my Psychic Division is used for Niche strategies, this is a Niche Strategy.

If you really want to argue this further, jump on MSN sometime some compromise can be cooked up, as this is a sticking point, as thus far I have noticed you have been the one to push arguments thus far almost to the point where people are ready to give up on this RP, which shows a great deal of promise, and I don't want to see it ruined.

Maybe this is just because I am uber cranky with all the stuff that has happened to me IRL this last few weeks but there is something I seriously would like to address...

A few of you, I won't mention names because everyone should know who they are, have suddenly just sprung up with massive forces located on NE soil. I'd like to know how this is possible seeing as the only one who actually made in my estimation an attempt at explaining thier reasons for having a force that large there are Novacom (and I aint about to touch the Psychics). I'd just like to know how so many nations got these massive forces into NE, most especially Britain.
Did you plant the teeth of a hydra into fresh soil and wave the golden fleece above them? Was there one of those warp zone pipe things Mario uses connecting Nova Europe to your country? Did your whole army take the train? Its not like you can just cross the street and bam be in Scotland, or Sirusia, or Wanderjar, or wherever.
The biggest problem I see with this is the definate unfairness... nations like myself made multiple posts where we shipped troops and supplies to various fronts, there was ample oppurtunity for someone to interupt me during that process. Suddenly I find myself being assaulted by an enemy force that seems to outnumber me 2:1, and is bombarding me with a shit ton of weaponry; they never even mentioned a large ground force prior to the attacks. In some cases they never mentioned more than sending a fleet or battlegroup. We need to address this; I find myself completly unable to think of a response because as soon as I think of one there is yet another gigantic body of armed men moving somewhere through the continent; it strikes me as unfair and pushing the balance of what had started out as a pretty damn good roleplay into regions that I myself percieve as totally rediculous.
There is a huge problem witht his as I see it... its sorta like napolean making his plans to visit the Japenese Emperor before he even began his invasion of Russia, its farsicle.

1st Nova Europan Bomber Squadron

Unfortunately for the Banshee's, while the gigantic bombers had a large enough RCS and flew high enough to be tracked by the fighters radars, the ATAIM-10 Hanabi, while a missile with a very long range, simply didn't have a long enough range, the B-300C had a speed of Mach 2.2 at altitude, combined with the fact that the Skyian missiles had been launched over from over 3000km away, it was unlikely that the planes could get into range of the bombers on their much smaller range, and even more doubtful that the missiles could overtake the bombers within their 400km range.

I'm going to have to call you out on this one. Even if Nova Europa is 4.5x bigger than real life (or something like that) Ireland is still far closer than 3000km to Wales. Unless your bomber flew west into the ocean before firing or something. And if they did that, I wouldn't have fired at all.

I'm going to have to call you out on this one. Even if Nova Europa is 4.5x bigger than real life (or something like that) Ireland is still far closer than 3000km to Wales. Unless your bomber flew west into the ocean before firing or something. And if they did that, I wouldn't have fired at all.

They did, well sorta, flew west to launch, then north out to nova's way station in the atlantic, so they didn't fly directly there, but they flew from northern scotland[scapa flow], launch missiles while over the north atlantic and then flew away towards his way station.

Also, 4.5x RL doesn't help, cause TWSP's nation is apparently the size of russia, give me a map with a scale please. I'm tired of using my thumbs on the screen and multipling by 4.5 :P


EDIT: I assume SaintB that you're refering to me, if so, here is my answer, Novacom asked me before thanksgiving to help him, I started writing my post then, but with work I was unable to finish, and when I got back alot of time had passed, so I wrote that post in past tense and added a 1 week before tag to it, then I wrote what was going to be my next post and made it present tense [looking at it, it should be six not four days later]. My fleet departed from Skyian Clandon [skyian controlled old clandonia, from which I under stood was just outside the bounds of the NE map when I conquered it.], this puts me JUST within a 6 days cruise at 55.6km/h, and definately with a day by air travel, so while my naval forces are there and not gearing up, my army is either still on the ships, or getting rest/fixing up at Scapa Flow before getting shipped out to battle.

As for the airforce, they're not fully settled in but enough for a few hundred fighters and a few dozen bombers to be worked into the airbases already on the island. Yes it was rushed, but not wanked. Also, from the direction I came from no one could have detected me [your sats are down and OTH radar won't reach], and it's out of the range of recon planes, and any intercept with ships would not have reached in time.

Clandonia was never in Nova Europa, nor nowhere near it O.o

RE: psychics

Well, I think that, to help clarify matters, we should probably treat a psychic attack like any new weapon, and get some specifications:

1. What is the maximum range of your psychics?
2. How do your psychics affect the brain?
3. Are there known or possible defenses that an enemy can develop? (NOTE to my fellow NEA'ers - we'll likely have to RP the research and development of said defenses which will take time).
4. How permanent are the effects?
5. Other pertinent details (do your psychics have a limit over the influence they can exert on a mind - how long they can exert influence, level of influence, etc).

If you already have this information available, a link to the appropriate reference thread or post would be appreciated. Otherwise, a post here for reference would be good.

I'm personally against the use of psychics or magic, but so long as people are willing to treat them like any other weapon or tactic (i.e. it is not undefeatable), I'm willing to allow them in limited form.

EDIT: Just so we're clear, however... in this issue, if it comes down to "my way or the highway", I'm siding with TWSP. Keep that in mind, please.

Thats a much better attitude, I thank you Triv for actually asking before saying god no IGNORE, and as I said before all you need to is ask.

1. What is the maximum range of your psychics?

The depends very much on the expereince and actual skill of the psychic, the Black Skull Enforcers for example train for nigh on 20 years with a fatality rate of over 60%, other things can be taken into account to amplify the range, hence the people being held in stasis around them, being used as a form of amplifier, beleive me you won't see any magic phones groing from one side of the world to the other, on average it's going to be several hundred kilomteres, with effectiveness decreasing with range, hence the nightmares on Naashas, Pilots opposed to something that could be more directly effective, I can't give an arbitrary figure because it depends from individual to individual, and from what is being done.

2. How do your psychics affect the brain?

They influence different parts acosiated with the desired effect, for example if I wished to alter a memory (such a skill which is not known by many due to the possible negative side effects in learning such a skill, plus the sheer advanced capability required that only Yuri and about 20 others within this theatre can do it, and it would require them to be there in person)

3. Are there known or possible defenses that an enemy can develop? (NOTE to my fellow NEA'ers - we'll likely have to RP the research and development of said defenses which will take time).

No possible known defences, I put emphasis on known because you may come up with a viable idea that does not extend to tinfoil which is of course a farsical idea, however I will say this, the best defence against it is mental training, Training every soldier to be able to resist such intrusions, though it would take a lot of time and a lot of time and error, and considering the small size of my psychic contignent that I have available for operations, it would propably be better to come up with methods if removing affected individuals from positions where they may do harm than risk disrupting your military training programs, against something like a Psychic Beacon, if I ever deployed one (which I may or may not) use something automated or self piloted, though of course the best thing would be to blow it up before it can fully activate.

4. How permanent are the effects?

Depends whats been used, for example said nightmares will propably last the best part of a day depending on how deep their fears run, with longer lasting psychological trauma, though apart from propably a case of insomnia and doubt about the war, said recent utilisations long term effects are negligible, long term mind control is utilised in a different way and requires actual physical interface with a certain aspect of Cyberax, but thats a different kettle of fish and unless somebody says, hey I wouldn't mind being psychically invaded, it won't be getting an airing in that capacity, more along the lines of command and control.

5. Other pertinent details (do your psychics have a limit over the influence they can exert on a mind - how long they can exert influence, level of influence, etc).

Indeed, the exertion of Psychic Power is physically and mentally exhausting, the training is long for a reason, the level of influence they can exert depends on the person on both ends, for example Xirniumite Inquisitors could only have their emotions felt and the occasional thought divined, because of their highly rigid closed minds, while Kraven Capitol Police, all brain washed, programmed clones were incredibly ease to reprogram with permanent effects, as one mind was identical to the rest, again it's linked to expereince, whos doing it, and who it's being done to, it's like asking for example how long my military could ride bikes, and how far they could travel.

I don't have a reference thread per se, as it was developed in several threads for quite a while and would require the reading through of several pages, if you have anymore questions or the need for further elaboration don't hesitate to ask, though I will point out one final thing, such things like this will be incredibly rare, not something I will do every 5 seconds, as like I said I don't have many of them, and they will be busy doing other things.

Oh one other thing, if you encountered one on the battlefield, they would have to focus entirely on the use of whatever major power or whatever they were using or focus on their task at hand, they cannot for example do mass mental manipulation and also charge across hooting machine guns in both arms with supernatural accuracy, it is one or the other.

Thank you for your answer... but I'm afraid that it's not quite enough.

I'm a hard-science geek by nature, so numbers and laws mean more to me than histories and effects.

So: to rephrase the first two questions:

1. How rapidly does influence drop with range? Are we looking at a linear drop-off, inverse-square law, or greater?

2. By "how do your psychics influence the brain," I am asking exactly what are the mechanisms involved? E.G. A large mass influences a smaller one through gravity. What are the force or forces involved with telepathy?

If you can tie your psychics abilities to known physical laws or known outside influences on the brain, then I may be more willing to accept the concept of psychics in this RP. Simple handwaving isn't going to cut it with me.

It is known, for example, that magnetic fields can influence all or parts of the brain. However, the fields in question must be quite strong, and to influence a specific area (e.g. the limbic system, known for controlling some of our emotions) they must be so narrowly focussed to influence that area and no others.

As a consequence, you must either have a magnetic "inducer" or a psychic who can influence someone who is within meters or even centimeters of said psychic, or a large magnetic field covering those hundreds of kilometers you mention... and influencing everyone within its radius in exactly the same way, although varying in degree depending on the field strength in a specific location.

Ultrasound and even light have also been shown to influence the brain. Ultrasound has the drawback also of being very low range (plus no human has the capacity to generate ultrasound vibrations, much less modulate them). Light has the drawback that it must directly impact the neurons involved... and human skulls are notoriously opaque ;)

These are the methods I am familar with that are known to modern science and hence can be justified under the MT or late-MT category that has influenced this RP.

Further: "No possible known defenses" is something of a contradiction in terms. Whether or not a defense is known, it must be possible. If a defense is impossible, it does not matter if it is known or not.

As it stands, with what you've provided, your psychics still seem a little too much like an invincible superweapon, and is skirting on godmode territory (not there yet, but you can see it from here).

I await your response. I don't want to lose you in this RP, but at the same time, I can't sit by with major violations to the laws of physics... that's a can of worms that will cause more problems than it solves.

TPF: this is the second time you haven't responded to a naval missile attack from my ships in the Baltic. May I ask if you have seen these attacks? If you have, are you ignoring them, and if so, why?

Those harpoons would just be intercepted... But I can respond if you'd like.

Beta, where did you deploy this fleet and how did they get within like 40km of my armada? You got to give me a chance to detect and strike before just waltzing into torpedo range.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with TWSP and Trivalvia on this one, I don't like the pyschic thing. I'm doing a modern tech roleplay here and goodness knows you have enough advantages already without being able to turn all of my pilots into despairing, lethargic zombies as well. I've posted an acknowledgement of your attack, because I don't in any way want to deny you the chance to include pyschics in your roleplay, but they aren't going to be used on me.

As for the lack of reconaisance, I'm using the exact same pretext as Doomingsland, someone somewhere in the NEA, including my last remaining orbital, has a view of Nova Ireland from outside the debris field. In addition to this, your positions in particular were established before the shooting war began and have had plenty of time to be located with satellite, spy plane, UAV etc.

Agreed on the whole psychic thing. It has absolutely no place in MT warfare. If you want it, make your own thread and those who agree with you can join.

TSS: I really wish you had described that in your original post. I'll let it go this time, however, I won't allow you to make retrospect excuses like this in the future.\

TPF: I think BA7's fleet was deployed near the beginning of the war, it's part of the blockade, if I'm not mistaken.

Agreed on the whole psychic thing. It has absolutely no place in MT warfare. If you want it, make your own thread and those who agree with you can join.

TSS: I really wish you had described that in your original post. I'll let it go this time, however, I won't allow you to make retrospect excuses like this in the future.\

TPF: I think BA7's fleet was deployed near the beginning of the war, it's part of the blockade, if I'm not mistaken.

I need some more details in the posts, such as how long they have been flying, where from, and how far away they are from my armada. This isn't directed towards you especially, its just four people are attacking my fleet and I need details so I can envision a strategic picture. Also, can I get a link to your orbat, por favor?

I need some more details in the posts, such as how long they have been flying, where from, and how far away they are from my armada. This isn't directed towards you especially, its just four people are attacking my fleet and I need details so I can envision a strategic picture. Also, can I get a link to your orbat, por favor?

Here ya go. Well, I'm not sure how up to date this is, but this is his original ORBAT

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13169703&postcount=52

Here ya go. Well, I'm not sure how up to date this is, but this is his original ORBAT

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13169703&postcount=52

Alright, just so we make this fair, heed it or not. If I understand that orbat, all of your planes, or near that, are currently up in the air. AIUI, the maximum number of planes in the air you can get from those Tempora carriers is 50, due to the amount of time it takes to launch, recover, rearm the aircraft and so forth. The Nimitz manage 25 IRL, you could probably bump it up to 30. Again, this isn't directed to you primarily, I just don't want others doing it in the blockade. Otherwise I might as well throw all my planes in for a party.

Agreed on the whole psychic thing. It has absolutely no place in MT warfare. If you want it, make your own thread and those who agree with you can join.

For the most part, I would agree.

However, I predominantly RP as a Fantasy and Future tech nation, but I delve into MT mostly for the lulz (even though I've never RPed a MT war before ;) ).

However, on principle, I will side with Triv on this (even though I never have and never will RP hard science), that allowing much more than cursory usage of psionics -- nevertheless using them as an actual weapon of war -- in a pure MT setting is opening up too large of a can of worms. Especially since if you do it, I'll do it, and my guys are probably better...not being humans and all. ;)

So yes, I'm gonna take Triv's side and say no to the psionics.

And sorry for not posting a list yet, TPF, I'm actually writing an English essay ATM, and have another one for tomorrow, and I'm really waiting on Wanderjar at this point anyway. :p

OOC: Would it be possible for Vetaka to evacuate its and all Allied Citizens and Embassy Personal from the region? Allied being

-Anybody whom has an Alliance with Vetaka
-All UFAN Member States
-All Questarian Commonwealth States
-Anybody whom has very warm relations with Vetaka

I intend to deploy a 50-100 strong with the majority of the fleet being Helicopter Carriers and Hospital Ships with a small Battlefleet for protection?

Those harpoons would just be intercepted... But I can respond if you'd like.

An acknowledgement that the attack occured and showing the missiles being shot down would be nice, yes. I can accept that they were shot down, given the comparatively smaller number of missiles I've fired. Although... do you have specs for the ships you've deployed?

Concerning your counter attack, how many of the five hundred missiles are directed my way?

Beta, where did you deploy this fleet and how did they get within like 40km of my armada? You got to give me a chance to detect and strike before just waltzing into torpedo range.

I deployed the fleet in the Baltic which is where everyone else seems to think your ships are, so correct me if I'm wrong. If you will notice on the map of NE, you will see that my coastline borders only the Baltic therefore my ports are on the Baltic as well. So my fleets have always been close to yours ever since the conflict started, you just decided not to attack them. They were not close enough to fire missiles, but they were close enough to get well within missile range inside a day. That being said, I have no problem with you RPing an attack on my fleet before I launched my missiles.

An acknowledgement that the attack occured and showing the missiles being shot down would be nice, yes. I can accept that they were shot down, given the comparatively smaller number of missiles I've fired. Although... do you have specs for the ships you've deployed?

Concerning your counter attack, how many of the five hundred missiles are directed my way?

Alright I'll do one. Also I do not have detailed stats on my ships, but I have the basic points across, and they're fairly generic with AFIAK very little wank, my air force and navy has more. Once I find the thread I'll edit this which how many I'm targeting you with.

Right I’ll clarify a bit more, and try and assign some figures for this, however I doubt I’ll be using it again in such a way, more directed against my own forces with other effects, or for example if somebody thinks to send infiltrators, as my Black Skull Enforcers primary role has always been Intelligence, Counter Intelligence and a Quasi Military Police/Secret Police

On Average the unenhanced range of Nightmare inducement would be 10KM, however amplified by the Tower, which is a Type of Psychic Amplifier (not to be confused with third generation Psychic Beacons using the same name), using a combination of other living subjects and Tesla Magnetic Waves increases the range substantially to 2000km, practically every other ability focused via the amplifier would have a range of less than 100km’s

And as for how they actually perform these capabilities, is via Manipulation of their own brain chemistry and the electrical impulses present in all minds to the point where they can send out their thoughts like a sort of transmission, and use their “presence” to interfere with the electro chemical balance of another brain, this is hardly easy, and is exhausting, however prolonged practise brings stamina and greater control, your all probably thinking this comes straight from Red Alert 2 and indeed some if does, some of you who have played it will recall one of Yuri’s lines, along the minds of brains being able to receive, and others being able to transmit and receive, in that aspect he is correct, unfortunately the site that I had formed all of my psychic capacities from has since been truncated to a shadow of it’s former self, so I can only link a part of it, but that part about electrical interference with the brain is still there in part, which I will quote below

With two cerebral brain halves, the human being also has a Tesla scalar interferometer between his ears. And since the brain and nervous system processes avalanche discharges, it can produce (and detect) scalar Tesla waves to at least a limited degree. Thus a human can sometimes produce anomalous spatiotemporal effects at a distance and through time. This provides an exact mechanism for psychokinesis, levitation, psychic healing, telepathy, precognition, postcognition, remote viewing, etc. It also provides a reason why an individual can detect a "stick" on a radionics or Hieronymus machine (which processes scalar waves), when ordinary detectors detect nothing.

(Note, this site used to have a lot more on it, and I will be investing in that book some time simply because the other pages were so incredibly useful before)

This part is highly relevant to my Psychic Programs, while the author carps on about anti-gravity and time travel some of what he says has a more sane ring to it, and this part certainly does, as I’ve said before I’m prepared to be incredibly flexible about it, though I will be shelving any further use of psychics in this RP unless I negotiate it via TG, or somebody tries sending an infiltrator in, in which case I wouldn’t even NEED to use Psychics to know about that, since they’d stick out like a sore thumb from not knowing the language, which I have always RPed as nobody except my people knowing, heck not even my allies understand it, except for rank names and such.

Oh and Naasha, I was under the impression that something like over 95% of all NEA satellites had been destroyed, with the remainder by now having been destroyed by the lovely conditions up there now, hence why I hadn’t considered them to be factors, however considering the way I RPed the development of the Island your bombers will have to do a bit of circling around Nova Ireland as well, as the surface construction began after the satellites, I’ll accept the spy planes this time due to it probably having been done before I could properly establish an air defense perimeter, but do remember, I am on the watch for intelligence gathering, and I would hardly allow anybody an extra crack at doing so ICly, as the place is being privately dubbed fortress Ireland :P

Quick Edit: Naasha, are all of your bomber formations heading out to attack my blockade and Nova Ireland heading through southern Trivalvia, as the blockade is just about in position with aerial patrols in place, the only parts would be the part you'd be flying over, and the parts in the english channel, which are still moving into position, all of which will be on the lookout for stealth craft, or did they head southwest through part of Terror Incognita to avoid this?

Hey,

I probably won't be able to make IC post until the end of the week. My computer at home has a virus that fucked up my wireless connection somehow, so I can't get online except at school, where I have barely any time to post. Sorry for any inconvenience.

Again, on the satellites, Naasha has one remaining photo-capable orbital which is not over the continent. All of my space based weapons and indeed all domestic satellites of mine over the continent have been destroyed. As pointed out by TSS, a satellite can get a view of the continent from a good long way outside the debris field by using slanted shots and this is the technique I'm using. I expect that other NEA members using satellite recon will be using the same tactic.

My bombers attacking your blockade have been ordered to fly north over Trivalvia and hit any hostile vessels they find along the way with a proportional number of missiles. Bearing in mind the range of the weapons and the proximity to the Trivalvian mainland is going to mean the bombers are rarely straying outside NEA airspace, let alone into your own weapons range.

The stealth aircraft attacking Nova Ireland are going in behind and away from the naval strikes, they will maintain high altitude and should be pretty much undetectable at the range they are going to be engaging at.

I wouldn't say undetectable, you're flying right over my ground based LARCAP [Long-range Aerial Recon Combat Air Patrols].

Got any links to stats on your EB-180?

Again, on the satellites, Naasha has one remaining photo-capable orbital which is not over the continent. All of my space based weapons and indeed all domestic satellites of mine over the continent have been destroyed. As pointed out by TSS, a satellite can get a view of the continent from a good long way outside the debris field by using slanted shots and this is the technique I'm using. I expect that other NEA members using satellite recon will be using the same tactic.

Ah well that clears that up, I wasn't aware of that, if I had known I would have started launching my own ASAT's to try and finish TPF's Task.

My bombers attacking your blockade have been ordered to fly north over Trivalvia and hit any hostile vessels they find along the way with a proportional number of missiles. Bearing in mind the range of the weapons and the proximity to the Trivalvian mainland is going to mean the bombers are rarely straying outside NEA airspace, let alone into your own weapons range.

My ships in the Channel won't be in position yet as I'm allowing you lot to throw something together quick enough before I tighten the noose, though I do have Combat Air Patrols in the skies that have no hesitation to follow you all the way back to your bombers point of origin to shoot you down, not saying don't attack, just saying that I won't allow the bombers to escape without a fight.

The stealth aircraft attacking Nova Ireland are going in behind and away from the naval strikes, they will maintain high altitude and should be pretty much undetectable at the range they are going to be engaging at.

So the very long way, out south, to sea, over what's left of your fleet, up north round to Northern Ireland, where your limited intelligence will have been able to identify as having a good chunk of it's defences still under construction, it'll give you a good chance to do some serious damage while I prepare a warm welcome for what will ammount to a on way mission considering the amount of time it'll take to go back, as flying over Nova Britain from there would put you in Doom's sector, and he'd have been alerted when you launch your attack on the facilities. They won't be completly undetectable, nothing is completly hidden from detection, and once my Patrols get close they won't loose you.

There was a request, a few pages back, for a map with a scale bar attached to it. I've taken the liberty to draw one up:

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n26/andrewc3/NovaEuropa-Scale.png

Notes:

1. The scale came from my map (as seen in my factbook), seeing as TWSP and I had to agree on a scale for our maps when we decided we were neighbors (over a year ago now, my how time flies!).

2. I've filled in claims as defined by "law". So Nova Britain is marked as belonging to Auman. If you like, you can either take this map and add the "de facto" claims (spots where people have actually put troops, battle sites, etc), or I can make a "scaled war map" showing current battles and fronts, as well as colour coding by side and/or alliance.

So: notes on distances based on this scale:

1. the stretch of water between Nova Ireland and Nova Britain ranges between 250 and 500 kilometers wide.

2. The Danish Strait (or perhaps it should be the Errikan Strait) between Errikan Nordenland and Beta Auriguae VII is roughly 200 km across at its narrowest point. Now IIRC, standard territorial water definition is 24 km (though individual nations may vary, so if the blockade was to set up there it would only have roughly 150 km of space to fit ships in...

From Pudu's storefront:
EB-180 “Stargazer”-$6.3 billion (193 sold) *Custom Design*
Function: Long Range, Multi-Role Hypersonic Heavy Bomber.
Crew: 2+4 jumpseatss
Engine: 5 Willington F-205-W110 Turbofans 90,000 lbs. of thrust each, 5 Pulse Detonation Wave Engines 160,000 lb. of thrust each (Arranged with one PDWE around each turbofan engine)
Length: 160 ft.
Wingspan: 92 ft.
Height: 40.5 ft.
Empty Weight: 210,360 lbs.
Maximum Weight: (normal weight) 372,000 lbs.
Speed: mach .92 – mach 6.0
Ceiling: 177,000 ft
Range: 5,580 miles (normal), 8,700 miles (ferried)
Countermeasures: 6 chaff dispensers, 15 chaff each, 6 flare dispensers, 12 flares each, 10 Missile scramblers, five on the top and bottom of the craft. Send a signal to a missile’s guidance system and confuses it, causing the missile to veer out of control. Ineffective against IR missiles
Weapons: Two internal bays with rotating launchers. Each launcher can hold 18 cruse missiles or more, smaller weapons; AIM-150 Scorpion AELRAAM, AIM-120 AMRAAM, AIM-7 Sparrow, AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-120 AMRAAM, AGM-160 Hammer AELRAGM, AGM-154A, AGM-84 Harpoon F-Model (Smaller missile), AGM-98 Swordfish AELRASM, AGM-218 “Lancelot” Cruse Missile, AIM-113 AERHAAM, AGM-232 ERHARM (The H is for Hypersonic)
Keynote Systems:
-Mission Adaptive Technology (MAT). The composite structure of the aircraft is reshaped by computer controlled micro-hydraulic actuators that can create lift or drag as needed. This is also used on the wings. Is extremely effective in controlling AoA (Angle-of-Attack). The MAT can make the entire aircraft a lifting body so take-off speeds a low, or only a small fraction of it create lift at high speeds. This allows the bomber to carry heavy loads and fly at hypersonic speeds.
-Laser radar (LADAR), uses lasers in place of radio waves, undetectable to current ECM equipment. Can detect air, ground, ship targets, and draw a photograph quality image of the battle space up 600-800km away, including some spacecraft in LEO. Allows the ELR (Extreme Long Range) ordinance to use the LADAR to track their target, they only need their terminal guidance radar activated for the final approach, this means that unless the pilot immediately breaks and uses countermeasures it will be too late. Developed by a Flightopian hero, Dale Brown.
-“Scatter Plot” Radar Detection Avoidance System (RDAS). It receives incoming radar emissions and throws them 180º away from their origin.
-Special radar echo-canceling alloys, very heat resistant.
-SuperCockpit® Displays.
Image: http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/787/mystery3yx.jpg (Picture doesn't show windows, engines, or weapons, but you get the idea.)

Both sets of bombers will be attacking targets at over 370km distant, which means that to detect them before they begin launching will be difficult, certainly guiding weapons onto them from over 100km before they begin firing will be pretty much impossible. Given that naval reconnaisance from my own ships can pinpoint the locations of your vessels means that my naval strikers can engage from the best possible route, they will be turning back over Trivalvia once they have launched, I challenge you to follow them back through NEA airspace!

Certainly the Nova Ireland raid will be more difficult, but again the massive range of the missiles involved means that the bombers are going to be engaged once they are returning home, unless you have CAPS that extend over one hundred miles from temporary bases.

OK guys,

Turns out I didn't have a virus, thank God. It was a bizzare hardware problem that has been resolved, so I'm back in full.

Naasha:

Before I respond to your attack, I want you to fix your post. You completely ignored the fact that my guys are accurately targetting your guys thanks to those satellites (unless of course you want my post to reflect that you can't see my guys either, as would be the case according to your response to mine), and as before those systems you're using to target my missiles are horribly suited to dealing with low level supersonic cruise missiles (they'd have SECONDS to engage, not because you can't see them but because of their flight profile, you wouldn't have a clear shot until they're extremely close and by then you'll have a split second to get a firing solution and send the missile/burst of cannon fire downrange before it goes by you.

So yeah, please fix losses and then I'll get a post up ASAP.

EDIT: Also, there's ALOT of things wrong with that bomber...I'll elaborate later because I'm tired right now...

(unless of course you want my post to reflect that you can't see my guys either, as would be the case according to your response to mine)

While I would love for this to be the case, the odds of getting everyone to go 'no satellites' would be nil, so I'll edit.

I'll also be frank, I don't want to take horrendous casualties. I feel that this thread is beginning to slip in a direction we don't want it to go. I remember at the beginning of this roleplay we got a few assurances that we weren't going to be dogpiled, huge numbers weren't going to be thrown against us and we might have a chance of winning a war that was originally about helping out TPF. I don't see anyone moving from their cozy little chunks of our continent to do that.

Unfortunately I think I speak for the most of the NEA when I say that we don't have the numbers, time or technology to even compete with the forces that the axis have sent to the front. I am perfectly happy to accept defeat in war, my initial war with Clandonia ended in a sound thrashing from him and I don't think I've won a real war since. But participating in a thread where most of my troops won't even see the enemy because that enemy has brought up insane numbers of uber-stealth missiles and who knows what else is simply rather boring.

I hate to be the first to use the word, but we are getting dogpiled here and it is becoming rather silly. I guess Ezaltia is a good example of what I mean, he lands troops in Wales and instantly loses half of them to a post which contained both the scouting of his operation and the bombing attacks, only to find he cannot strike back at what hit him. Now that I try to make the same kind of stealth attack, Novacom is assuring me that his few week old bases defenses will make it a one-way mission.

At the beginning of this thread I trusted in the early entrants, Questers and Novacom especially, to scale back their amazing capabilities in order to make the roleplay enjoyable. I felt that new entrants like Doom and TSS might implicitly respect that as well, but so far only Questers has shown any restraint or interest in making this the least bit rewarding for the 'other side'.

I don't know if anybody feels the same way as I do, but I damned sure get the impression TWSP does at least. I'll go and edit that post now shall I? Goodbye to my Nova Britannian forces, or a good number of them at least.

EDIT: Glad it was only hardware that you could fix, Doom, viruses are a bitch.

My post is now fixed.

Wooooah chill out, dude, I wasn't targetting your forces exclusively you must remember, I was also hitting SaintB's guys (in fact I was mostly concentrating on him, you were mostly an afterthought although with the way you concentrated your forces I'd be able to do more damage with less missiles). You'll have stuff left, I just thought it was a bit...rediculous that you lost less then 100 guys...that's where I was coming from.

How far are those subs? And can you provide stats for the torpedoes? Those aren't as important as the range, though.

Wooooah chill out, dude, I wasn't targetting your forces exclusively you must remember, I was also hitting SaintB's guys (in fact I was mostly concentrating on him, you were mostly an afterthought although with the way you concentrated your forces I'd be able to do more damage with less missiles). You'll have stuff left, I just thought it was a bit...rediculous that you lost less then 100 guys...that's where I was coming from.

That doesn't really address my concerns as I set them out above. Take TSS for example, he has deployed 477,000 ground forces, 10,000 air assets and more ships than I care to count. Against this is arrayed 70,000 Naashans and only slightly larger forces from SaintB and Ezaltia, real fun roleplay for us.

My post has now been fixed to reflect the true damage of your attack anyway, if you and Novacom take as much damage as you want from me then I shall be pleased, despite the fact that my entire airforce launched fewer cruise missiles than your 4800 in the initial attack.

That doesn't really address my concerns as I set them out above. Take TSS for example, he has deployed 477,000 ground forces, 10,000 air assets and more ships than I care to count. Against this is arrayed 70,000 Naashans and only slightly larger forces from SaintB and Ezaltia, real fun roleplay for us.


To be honest, I brought in signficant allies when I learned that both Tigerlan, Wanderjar, Derscon, and Auman would be invading. Now, most of them haven't yet, but when they enter the war it will look less like a dogpile. That's really the only reason I begged people to help me, now you're feeling like I was feeling.

To Be Honest I had Expected Derscon and Auman to have had forces in the area by now actually doing something, but since they arn't yet, and they will inevitably be comming, I especially am trying to put myself in the best possible position to be able to deal with what will inevitably be at first a very bleak situation for me in particular, considering to get to Nova Britain they have to get past my forces, blockade, and Nova Ireland itself to get to Nova Britain, hence I will end up getting hammered big time.

TPF is right on this when Derscon Auman and co finally enter this will look less like a dogpile, but by the time they arrive some of the combatants may be smashed beyond assissting them, which makes IC military sense, and beleive me some of us are scaling back our capacities, consdiering I'm not using my PMT arsenal you should consider it a blessing, even though the original thread was PMT, this one is MT so I am respecting that, when it comes to ground based operations, my forces won't be quite as spectacular, as being quite heavily favouring manoevre I sacrifice armour, so anti tank weapons designed to work against mega armoured behemoths common in the rest of NS, will seriously butcher a good deal of my tank corps.

It would appear once again timeline rears it's ugly head, as part of my preparations in establishing a way station, I shipped out a heavy amount of prefab facilities so Nova Ireland could be fortified quite quickly, which indeed it has been, and was allowed to do so unmolested, the fact that it's only being attacked now 20 pages in is a blessing to the commanders there, because it's allowed them to prepare for such, as now there in a position of strength to carry out a planned invasion of Trivalvia and possibly another without the need for further massive reinforcement.

I don't see the Huge Numbers being chucked about, I don't see the overhwhelimg foe's, as when you cut it down to base combatants, only I have forces in significant number in the theatre, Doom hasn't shipped in all his forces yet and indeed about 3/4's are still shipping out with the impression I'm getting is of most of the aerial contingent having arrived along with a good chunk of the Naval, with only an army group or two attacking to keep off balance. so comparing that it looks a lot more favourable for the lot of you, as by the time we actually get to TPF to help him, his defences will propably have folded by the amount of people attacking, thus it will appear pointless, however it won't end there because of Auman's purchase of britain (which I still think is slightly suspect) will ensure there is still war in Nova Europa, which will propably end up causing yet more trouble and with another spanner put in the works cause this to further escalate in another manner.

No Matter what you say, at the moment neither truly have the advantage, except perhaps us with the initiative.

I don't really mind the amount of opposition* (it makes it a fun challenge), but I really mind all the stealth tech (it makes it a bore), especially how we can't actually fight back. It seems to me, all that's happening is there are stealth bombers, fighters, and missiles flying every which way and nobody can do a freaking thing about it.

And let's not forget one very important aspect: This is a game, and the point of the game is to have fun. There is no "winning" Nationstates.

However, that being said, it isn't particularly "fun" if you have to just sit there and get hammered on by invisible foes, and that is largely what I see happening, especially in Nova Brittania. It seems like every post about that infernal place end with, "the enemy wouldn't know what hit them," "The enemy wouldn't know they were there until too late," or something to that effect. At that point it ceases to become anything resembling fair fight and just becomes shooting fish in a barrel.

I wouldn't mind fighting against Novacom and getting my ass handed to me on a silver platter because I was beaten fair and square, but I would definitely not appreciate having to sit there or run away from invisible enemies that can't be countered.

*I am, however, a tad worried about numbers, TSS in particular. His military might could most likely ground most of the NEA nations into the ground with the flick of a wrist. See, there's a difference between overwhelming the enemy by fire/manpower and simply being able to beat them by piling up on them, which it definitely looks like in the TSS situation.

And, from the looks of it, he's deployed almost his ENTIRE military against us, if he 1% of his population is in the military and 5/6 of the military are actually logistics. Assuming that each of his two thousand ships have an average of 500 men aboard and each plane is piloted/crewed/whatever by only one person, then adding the 447 hundred thousand ground forces, he has just under 1.5 million men in Nova Europa. This, to me at least, does not sound like a "small amount" of forces (linky (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=13256537#post13256537))

And Novacom, thanks for being so patient by waiting for me to finish up the rest of the post. I'm going to try really hard to have it up by the end of tonight.

Stealth is a major part of modern warfare, I see little reason why we should not include it. Additionally, there are ways to counter the stealth, against the Sariels you have to use long-band dopplar radar, and that will give you the rough location of the aircraft not enough to get a lock, unless it closes to within like 90km, so that's why you have interceptors flying around supported by AWACS and the like. Really stealth is an issue, but its not be all, end all, just use some tactics to counter it.

TBH I'm not overly concerned about stealth, as long as I have a vague location I can cover the area with Tokons, which are fast and incredibly cheap + unpiloted so I'm not loosing pilots, hence the reason I would have no worries about sending them after the bomber formations Naasha has sicced on me.

and NP Sirusa, you'll find I'm quite patient, both OOCly and ICly, a small delay here or there can often lead up to bigger payouts in the end, I'm not above loosing a battle to further the storyline, or loose a battle ICly, to set up for a greater victory later on, there are after all different types of victory :p

Oh and on the TSS Issue, remember I've contracted him out, if he looses forces I will end up paying for it, consider it yet more chipping away at me if that makes it any better, as soon I will end up with a lot of action on my platter, with Siriusa, Trivalvia, Naasha and the shadows of Derscon and Auman hvaing to go through my to Nova Ireland, so I will end up getting bled considerably in this.

I'll be putting another post up soon. I've been waiting to allow an acceptable amount of IC time to pass before I show up.

At the beginning of this thread I trusted in the early entrants, Questers and Novacom especially, to scale back their amazing capabilities in order to make the roleplay enjoyable. I felt that new entrants like Doom and TSS might implicitly respect that as well, but so far only Questers has shown any restraint or interest in making this the least bit rewarding for the 'other side'.
Eh for the record I entered the thread long before both Questers and Novacom...

Eh for the record I entered the thread long before both Questers and Novacom...

Actually, yeah, that's true.

Ok, if i were to deploy all of my combat military, it'd be like 11.17 million troops, not 1.5 (my pop is 6.7bil+ with conquering parts of old clandonia bloodlessly, so 1% is 67bil. [that is, if I even followed a stupid 5/6 military in logistical roles, it's more like 2/3 or 1/2]

498,750 = total ground troops [organic logistics means I don't have to deploy 2x the number of logistical troops as combat, my army is 1/2 logistics, so they're 'there' but not in theater, they're in old clandonia prepping supplies and TSS proper sending supplies.]

As for the air forces, which number 33,536 pilots and 22,940 base defense troops, again, they have organic base defence forces and supply forces, however, they do have ground crews [36 ground crew for each pilot, and half of my airforce ain't even deployed yet, only the heavy bombers and a few land based fighters, probably less then the 1/5th the total force I've set aside for the battle]

2,246,600 sailors on combat ships in theater, with 150,740 aboard logistical ships, so I have 6 armadas, so that's those two numbers added together times 6 which equals 15,288,480 [combat personal] in the navy, I have the two number of logistical personal as combat so that's a total of 45,865,440 personal.

Total military comes out to:
18,980,000 + 45,865,440 + 11,268,720 = 76,114,160 TOTAL [combat and logistical, I think I have just a hair over 25mil combat personal] personal, or 1.13% of my nation on active duty. I have no army or airforce reserve/national guard, only a naval guard that consist of just about 2/3 corvettes.

Oh, and the I probably missed the whole point, but I have 2,952,566 men in nova europa, around 80% on ships and never getting off them :P

Basically, yeah I have a ton of ships, but this is ALL that I'm deploying to this theater of battle, for good.

Why? Because it's all Nova's paid for. :P So basically, I'm not going to be crushing NE single handly, too expensive waging a war who knows how far from home with minimal public support [other then people supporting AMF/Doom/Questers in the fight and Goverments long time support for/from Novacom.

Keep in mind, all of my stuff about logistics applies to you guys too, some of you are around half my size or something, you could technically be deploying forces that are equal to or greater in size to mine with ease, without the logistics penalty [and that if you only use 1.13% of your pop in the military and no reserve/guard]. Basically, you guys are WAY over playing the numbers game, think about what YOU could possibly deploy, don't get caught up in the numbers.

[If anything, I've evened the odds, who knows how many troops derscon and auman are gonna deploy [can't be a ton though, cause derscon might end up fighting AMF/Me which is unacceptable, we are in the same alliance :P], and what you guys deploy when ya stop ya blubbering! *waves a stick like a old man* GET OFF MAH LAWN! DAMN KIDS! OW MAH BACK!

Weighing in a bit, here...

Yeah, I think we do feel a little worried here in the NEA, because Auman and Derscon haven't put their forces into the field yet, and Wanderjar is, well, in limbo (which may amount to his nation becoming, not a hole, but an impenetrable barrier from outside, if he doesn't come back to the RP). But, as The Silver Sky has kindly reminded us, we're operating with shorter and more secure supply lines than the invaders, and we can bring more forces in proportion to our populations to bear. I've recieved some good advice on stalling/blunting invasion forces, and should Novacom invade, I'll be putting that advice to good use. :)

Besides, many of the invaders (Questers, AMF, TSS specifically) are more supporting Doomingsland and TPF rather than seeking domination. This will likely be represented in their populations attitudes towards war deaths (think of how US public opinion on Iraq has been influenced by the growing number of soldiers killed - using this as an EXAMPLE, don't flame please). So, to put this into wargaming terms, the NEA's goal towards many of the outside invaders would be to aim for a draw, not a clearcut victory.

I'd like to float a couple of ideas, if I may...

First, since this is turning into a larger war than anyone anticipated (not quite world war level, as NS measures these things) we might want to split this RP into several either sequential RPs covering phases of the war or into daughter RPs covering different theatres. How we would organize this is a question I will leave to more experienced RPers, but I'm wondering if splitting the RP might be a good idea, especially to help us keep track of information.

Second, and this is directed more at Novacom/TSS: if you guys are planning to invade Trivalvia, when did you want to start said invasion and where? I can prepare reference maps and material for both sides to use.

I'm not sure when nova's kicking it off, but I suppose sometime in the next 4 posts by him, you can TG him asking him what he needs.

Or just ask on the thread. :P

Indeed I will be kicking off the invasion very very soon, what I wouldn't mind would be information on major transport hubs, major air, naval and army bases, plus general terrain and logistical centers, plus how much of your fleet has been left outside my blockade, as from what I can gather roughly half of it is trapped outside, oh and any fortifications of signifigance in general. I've RPed a few flyovers which have went unchallenged before things really went to hell, plus having positioned a few satalites in safe orbits to get such information.

I do hope Wanderjar comes back as without him that kinda throws the entire dynamic out of kilter again, as if he's impenatrable so is TPF and thus half the RP is gone.

Trivalvia, if you need help fighting off this invasion just say a word and half the Red Army will be there to aid you.

Indeed I will be kicking off the invasion very very soon, what I wouldn't mind would be information on major transport hubs, major air, naval and army bases, plus general terrain and logistical centers, plus how much of your fleet has been left outside my blockade, as from what I can gather roughly half of it is trapped outside, oh and any fortifications of signifigance in general. I've RPed a few flyovers which have went unchallenged before things really went to hell, plus having positioned a few satalites in safe orbits to get such information.

I do hope Wanderjar comes back as without him that kinda throws the entire dynamic out of kilter again, as if he's impenatrable so is TPF and thus half the RP is gone.

Don't worry, WJ's still around. He's just a little busy academics-wise at the moment, from what I can tell. He'll probably post around Friday or the weekend (but don't take my word for it).

Okay. I've just got handed a bunch of paperwork I need to finish up over the weekend, but I'll see about providing some detailed information for reference.

A few basics for now:

As you can see from my nation's map (see factbook link, below), Trivalvia has a lot of islands off the mainland coast. Basic stats are:

Quadrivalve Archipelago
Population: 12 million
Air Force deployment (current): 2 wings (1 wing = 5 squadrons, 1 squadron = 4 flights, 1 flight = 5 planes)
Ground Force deployment (current): 5 regular brigade groups, 2 reserve brigade groups (Fog of War: exact numbers probably not known to Novan forces)
(en-route): 1 brigade group for reinforcements (Fog of War: recent change, may or may not be known)
Naval Deployment: 3 Asher-class Frigates, 1 Guardian class cruiser
Details of fortifications still to come, but these islands have fewer defenses than anywhere else in Trivalvia.

Isle d'Monovalve
Population: 130 million
Air Force deployment (current): 4 wings
Ground Force deployment (current): 10 regular brigade groups, 3 reserve brigade groups (Fog of War: exact numbers probably not known to Novan forces)
(en-route) 3 brigade groups
Naval Deployment: 3 Asher-class Frigates, 2 Guardian class cruisers
Note: Shipyard present; 25% of Trivalvia's shipbuilding capability lies here.
Also note: 60% of needed food is imported from the mainland.

Bivalve Island
Population: 500 million
Air Force deployment (current): 10 wings
Ground Force deployment (current): 15 regular brigade groups, 5 reserve brigade groups
Naval Deployment: ???
Note: 75% of needed food is imported from the mainland

North Island Territories
Population: 40 million
Air Force deployment (current): 4 wings
Ground Force deployment (current): 10 regular brigade groups, 2 reserve brigade groups
Naval Deployment: coast guard corvettes

I'll try to have a full description (including detailed "Fog of War" issues) by Monday.

TWSP: count on it :) Although I'll probably have to wait until the IC shooting starts before I can ask for help...

@Naasha: I'm not really interested in bringing in invincible swathes of ships and conquering the whole of Nova Europa. I think its pretty obvious that if the Axis put everything into it we could overrun the region. I don't think it proves anything to do that, I would rather prove that the older NS players are still capable of good roleplaying and I'd rather prove that I'm still tactically capable and don't win because of big numbers. For this reason I'm going to scale down my presence by about 750~ ships. I'll post an ORBAT soon, but as I said on the IC post, I'm feeling a bit shit atm.

That said, I'll give you some advice:

Don't use western anti ship missiles. They're terrible. They have the advantage of bieng accurate, but when the enemy ships are in gigantic formations, thaty doesn't really count for much. They usually also have the terrible disadvantage of being subsonic, which is bad because even in IRL warfare, ships like De Zeven Provincien and Type 45 can easily shoot down subsonic missiles because of the range of their radars and their SAMs.

Soviet missiles are much bigger, but much more capable. Rather than AGM-158s, here's a selection you could use. Yes, you'll hold more, but thats one of the downsides.

Yes, they're old, but there's no raeson why you can't update the electronics on them to suit NS. After all, these missiles are fast and have decent ranges - especially if you're using Sariels, which allows you to get much closer to enemy fleets.

K-10S / AS-2 KIPPER (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raduga_K-10S)
Kh-22 / AS-4 KITCHEN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-22)
Kh-20 / AS-3 KANGAROO (modified guidance though, maybe active/home on jam radar) (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/as-3-specs.htm)
KSR-5 / AS-6 KINGFISH (Big, but WELL worth a look at) (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/as-6-specs.htm)

Also, if you're to use IRL equipment, for your navla bombers I would suggest the Tu-22M (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu-22M) (if you choose to retcon those in thats fine by me), simply because it was designed for the job, unlike the B1 or the B2, and is more appropriate for carrying anti shipping missiles.

I'm not trying to demand you do these or anything; but air to ship weapons were never the West's forte, and it was always the Russians that schemed to sink US Carriers in the middle of heavily defended battlegroups, which makes their tech more appropriate to NS. You cna mix and match of course, but I'm just trying to help you suit your military more to the sort of NS warfare I usually expect to fight.

OOC: Not to be a bother, but could someone please whip up a map or something of the like illustrating the current military positions and such? Such things, in my experience, make things far easier to fully understand, particularly given the nature of the situation.
In the past, particularly with that invasion of TWSP a while back, I have taken the role of actually creating the map for situations in which I have this sort of interest (a war surrounding my territory involving nations with which I have historically been involved), but that is not currently an option. Should no one else be willing to do so, I could probably find the time, though not for a while, and I would still require extensive input from the others.

Of course, should this just be a stupid waste of time, go ahead and tell me.

Questers: if I may say a word: OUCH!

Well played; my nation has now gotten its first taste of Nationstates warfare... and got its ass whooped, admittedly. Once I learn from TPF how many missiles he's fired at me, it's safe to say that Trivalvia has lost the seas.

If I still have a nation after this, I might come calling to buy some of those Sea Lions. :)

Well, this was a successful testbed for my new weaponry systems :p

gonna be a political uproar when the people found out the government sent ships in to test them <_<

on the IC thraed I offered to reduce the attack so you can still get a shot back in, but if you're fine with what happened, then thats cool with me too.

ATM Sea Lion is sensitive export, which means it only goes to allies - 1st February its going international though, as well as my Town Class <_<

Well, I think the maxim that a nation is only prepared for its last war, not its next war applies here. Sending the carrier group was a foolish maneuver, but then my navy brass haven't really had any experience to judge; politics as much as strategy dictated the deployment. And I think we all know what happens when politics factors into military decisions <_<.

Triv, 250 were Trident's were launched at your fleet.

TWSP, shouldn't your fleet be destroyed? I launched over 7,000 heavy missiles at you, not including the MLSS-400's. I doubt your ships could even make it more than a few kilometers before being struck.

Will have an OOB, and opening post up in the IC thread this weekend, finally.

Right after I write and post this long post I must tonight.

Hm. Even split? Okay, I'll get to writing the impact post. But expect the North Sea Battlegroup to go down fighting... :)

Hm. Even split? Okay, I'll get to writing the impact post. But expect the North Sea Battlegroup to go down fighting... :)

Sounds fine :)

I think Trivalia has a good idea there with splitting the war into multiple threads. Might want to separate the Britannia theatre from the TPF theatre just to make it an easier read...

Wanderjar has informed me on MSN that he will not have ANY time for NS from now until Christmas break, which presents a problem since he has troops in my nation and the like...

Triv, 250 were Trident's were launched at your fleet.

TWSP, shouldn't your fleet be destroyed? I launched over 7,000 heavy missiles at you, not including the MLSS-400's. I doubt your ships could even make it more than a few kilometers before being struck.

And the Ezaltians fired, what, forty five thousands?

Yeah, thought so.

Anyways, how can land-based ABMs shoot down my missiles when you are off a foreign, not to mention, hostile coast?

Yeah, forty five thousand harpoons. The most useless ASM in NS warfare. :P

Reduced order of abttle, accounting for losses (will update and repost when I take losses.)

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd172/Hoodtan/Fleets/8thDecember2007.png

Vetaka, which way are you coming from?

And Dr Perry Cox? Scrubs much?

Vetaka, which way are you coming from?

And Dr Perry Cox? Scrubs much?

OOC: Scrubs a hell of alot. A wee bit of a Scrubs Geek lol.

As for my fleet its approaching from what I assume is the Nova Atlantic passing between South Nova Britannica and Trivalvia and on the way to TWSP and Wandy.

Scrubs ftw.

TWSP, can you post a map of Nova Europe here please?

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x204/Sgt-Alex/NovaEuropaMapNames-1.png

So what is going on?

Hi Czechalrus:

Here is what has been happening While You Were Out :p

The PeoplesFreedom, seeking glory and conquest, attempted to claim Nova Britain for its own, and proceeded to launch attacks against the World Soviet Party and at satellite assets belonging to the Nova Europa Alliance in general. The NEA has, in turn, mobilized against TPF to contain the aggression. Several outside nations, including some truly large ones, have weighed in either because of their desire for land (Novacom), their hatred of anything Soviet (Doomingsland, Allanea), or treaty obligations with TPF (Questers, AMF).

Wanderjar, Derscon, and Auman, have emerged as a third force which is currently aligned with the NEA (i.e. our goals are, if not similar, than at least they are mutually supporting). Tigerlan will likely support Wanderjar (this is implied, but only minimal IC evidence to support it, so take that with a grain of salt). Auman has become the de jure ruler of Nova Britain, but so far few seem willing to recognize their claim.

Militarily, what can now be referred to as the Nova Europan War has two theatres: the Eastern Nova Europa Theatre (including the Baltic, where currently a major battle rages between the now-unsupported TPF armada and allied fleets), and the Nova Brittanian Theatre (Novacom and Doomingsland have established fortififed positions in the Nova British isles, with the Questerian fleet providing naval support for a 50 km "protection zone"). Possibily included in this theatre, although it may become a seperate front altogether, is the Novacom naval blockade and potential invasion of Trivalvia.

Currently, it is not known how this war will end, or what the balance of power will be like.

I believe this sums it up.

Well, I'll try to sum it up for you as best I can.

1). TPF announced he was annexing Great Britain (also known as Nova Brittania or NB).
2). NEA says "No wai!" and forms a blockade
3). TPF attacks NEA space assets, illegally marches through Wanderjar, and attacks TWSP
4). Wanderjar says TPF has no right to be doing that, TPF calls off attack on TWSP
5). TPF calls peace conference
6). At the peace conference, it is revealed that NB rightfully belongs to Auman, who purchased the plot of land from The Federal Union.
7). Also during the meeting, TPF attacks TWSP's homeland and naval assets
7.5). At the meeting, TPF's diplomat is killed
8). Before, Doomingsland and Novacom have both set up shop in NB, even though the land rightfully belongs to Auman.
9). Doomingsland starts to attack the NEA forces in Great Britain (specifically, SaintB)
10). Basically, where we are now. TPF has called in Doomingsland, Questers, The Silver Sky, Novacom, and Automagfreek, thinking that they would even the sides because we would have Derscon, Wanderjar, and Auman (although none of these three are being particularly active at this point).

Atlantic Theatre:
Trivalvia and Naasha sent fleets out into the Atlantic to stop Questers from approaching, but Trivalvia's fleet has just been demolished, I'm not sure what's going on with Naasha's. I'm pretty sure that he's on his way back to Trivalvia. Novacom has a blockade set up around Triv, so that could get messy.

NB Theatre: I gotta be honest, I haven't been following this too closely. From what I can tell, everyone has erected some kind of base in NB in a matter of hours. I really don't know what's going on here, and if someone else could explain it, that would be a lot more useful.

Baltic Theatre: Basically, it's Blockade - TPF - Ezaltia and BA7, so a bit naval sandwich with TPF in the middle of the NEA. TPF's initial picket was destroyed by Ezaltia's massive attack of 45,000 missiles and in return, TPF launched 7,000 missiles at TWSP. Basically, it's a lot of missile spam going back and forth.

TPF Theatre: I think this is on hold, because WJ isn't really around. WJ's invading TPF over the border, and TPF is resisting. Yeah, I think that pretty much sums it up.

EDIT: Trivalvia beat me to it! Noooo! :p

This contains a certain amount of NEA bias, so if one of the opposing nations would like to weigh in, that would be helpful too.

So how do I get in on this?

Sorry all for not posting, I'm almost in the same boat as Wanderjar at this point.

Czechalrus, do you have AIM/MSN? I would like to talk with you about something.

One important distinction, as according to your map Ireland is a seperate claim, and from what I've heard of the past situation it wasn't owned by TFU, and thus couldn't have been sold to Auman, my motives arn't Territorial, their treaty based, but with a twist that will propably become clearer ICly sometime later.

I'll be setting things in motion with Naasha, Siriusa against my fleet and then preparing the invasion, out of curiosity, are you attacking the southern part of the blockade Naasha, or the northern part, so I know where the losses will be and how that may influence my response to Siriusa?

Remember my Presence is mainly on Ireland with minimal encroaching on Auman's "territory" of which I can count how many people appear to recognise such a claim on one hand...

I'm flying north over Trivalvia and hitting what I come across first, I suspect that will be the elements of your blockade in the English channel between my fleet and mainland Trivalvia.

What ships do you have in the blockade? My fleet is still reasonably operational down there so I may have a pop at them while I still have platforms to launch my missiles from.

Sorry all for not posting, I'm almost in the same boat as Wanderjar at this point.

Czechalrus, do you have AIM/MSN? I would like to talk with you about something.

No sorry I don't.

So how do I get in on this?

Just start posting, it's an affair that concerns the whole Nova Europan region after all.

War Protests in Questers (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=13276465#post13276465)

And the Ezaltians fired, what, forty five thousands?

Yeah, thought so.

Anyways, how can land-based ABMs shoot down my missiles when you are off a foreign, not to mention, hostile coast?

Um, 45,000 harpoons, which are very easy to intercept and they are subsonic, and I lost over 300 ships to that barrage and hm... let me think, I have THREE circles of defense, fighters with AAM's, SAM's, and CIWS/RAM, and I did the calculations on this... and not one defense like yourself.

Just start posting, it's an affair that concerns the whole Nova Europan region after all.

On that note,

OOC: Not to be a bother, but could someone please whip up a map or something of the like illustrating the current military positions and such? Such things, in my experience, make things far easier to fully understand, particularly given the nature of the situation.
In the past, particularly with that invasion of TWSP a while back, I have taken the role of actually creating the map for situations in which I have this sort of interest (a war surrounding my territory involving nations with which I have historically been involved), but that is not currently an option. Should no one else be willing to do so, I could probably find the time, though not for a while, and I would still require extensive input from the others.

Of course, should this just be a stupid waste of time, go ahead and tell me.

I would be happy to make a map, but I need to know the general locations of the naval battles in the Baltic and North Seas (I assume the latter is the North Sea, it may be just the Atlantic), and how far any invading forces have gone.

I have no idea how far south my guys pushed...I'm really waiting on the defenders to either intercept my guys on their way down or to sit around and wait for my guys to hit their 80 mile checkpoint...

You know errik, if you order ships from me, you wont get them til after this conflict :p

You know errik, if you order ships from me, you wont get them til after this conflict :p

That's fine; I don't really plan on fighting here, and I have yet to decide exactly what I want anyway.

You know errik, if you order ships from me, you wont get them til after this conflict :p

Does that go the same for all NE nations, or just Errikland? Does this mean I should just wait, or could I order now and act as if it was bought AFTER this?

And Doom, after this could I just re-submit my purchase at your storefront?

It goes for all NEA nations. Depending on the outcome of the war I'm looking for friendly relations with NEA nations, arming and training navally etc. Well, some of them at least <_<

Wait--was I part of the NEA? I certainly don't recall joining it, nor ever thinking I was a part of it, nor ever acting on its behalf, and those are things I generally do with an alliance. Am I insane?

If not, were you operating under the impression that I was, in fact, a member?

Mmm, I was, just until I saw the "colony" bit, but that was a general statement. I will sell you those ships if you like, but I was just making the point that they won't come through if any ordered them <_<

Mmm, I was, just until I saw the "colony" bit, but that was a general statement. I will sell you those ships if you like, but I was just making the point that they won't come through if any ordered them <_<

I see how you could make the error.

With your first statement, I though you were just saying that your construction would be impacted by the war, and thus any such orders would not be available until afterwards.

Interesting to know that, as Originally my blockade plan called to cut off your acrhipeligo in addition to the main blockade but I was clueless to the defences and played it safe, that will be interesting to know.

Naasha, there's a map somewhere with each blockade node on, each had numbers from 6 - 12 battleships and 4-8 carriers with assorted support ships in addition to a co-ordination vessel and in between had roving patrols of 5 cruisers and 5 submarines each in packs with extensive patrols and such

I'll be putting ground work up tommorow, though I suspect your anti tank missiles while obsolete will have a field day against my medium tanks, which have fairly light armour in comparison to my allies, this is however for good reasons which will become clear later on.

oh and Triv TG.

SaintB, what exactly is DOMAR? Can't say I've heard of it...it'd have to be pretty amazing in order to detect an Atratus at 500km and get a firing solution...

Shardstorm Missiles

These are something I started months ago and realized though I had a final version I never posted anything about it, so here is a lot of the info cut down.

Shardstorm missiles are made for indirect fire and were designed most specifically as a Surface to Air missile that can engage high stealth and altitude aircraft that are hard to target and detect. They are guided primarily by DOMAR, which works by sending very weak electro magnetic pulses out, and are not enough to mess with most electronics, it creates silhouette thats visible on its detectors.
The missiles have an inboard receiver and computer that take the information gained on the aircraft's flight path, size, speed, and all that good stuff and is moved on an intercept course, the information is updated every second. Shardstorm missiles don't directly target the aircraft, instead they go on an intercept path based on their data and then explode in air releasing shrapnel, chaff, and explosives in a 20 meter radius in an attempt to hit the plane with the debris. The missiles can reach low orbit, or sustain their flight at Mach 2.6 for several minutes and are capable of "sprinting" at mach 3 but it burns fuel fast.

So it doesn't actually get a firing solution Doom, it just tracks movement and stuff and sends that information to the warhead.

Do you have a reference for this DOMAR? Otherwise I'm fairly sure that using EM for detection like that its going to be rediculously hard...EM waves really don't travel terribly well in atmosphere meaning the range would be extremely low, and just generating them is going to be extremely difficult...

I am looking for it right now, its one of the things I picked up from a short partnership with Raven Corps. If he hadn't had disappeared he'd prolly know right where to find the reference material. Me, I'm sorting through a ton of threads atm and Jolt is being slow

Well, I have browsed through several threads with Raven Corps, South Lisuzauria, and some other nations using it. I think that should be precedence enough?

DOMAR ( EMP Dome detection systems) the DOMAr will send out a constant pulse that is to weak to be any affect to electrical systems but also powerful enough to travel a distance in a dome formation covering ground and high air targets. Once an object has appeared in the DOMAR an operator will Id the shape of the air craft and compare the shape to a known database. If the shape is not IDed as friendly a missile is send and the DOMAR gives it constant tracking data.

Does this work?

Does this work?

I can't see how. That would require a return, and there is no return in EMP, just an effect. Think of it like trying to find out where someone is in the world by blowing out hot air all around, you won't find, or identify, anything because the hot air will have cooled, and not come back.

Plus at any decent range, like over 1km, it will be strong enough to fry any unprotected electronics, and that bouble only gets larger as the ranges expand. If you want to have a bouble extend out 100km, then say bye bye to civillian stuff and unprotected military electronics within 3/4ths of that.

Interesting to know that, as Originally my blockade plan called to cut off your acrhipeligo in addition to the main blockade but I was clueless to the defences and played it safe, that will be interesting to know.

Naasha, there's a map somewhere with each blockade node on, each had numbers from 6 - 12 battleships and 4-8 carriers with assorted support ships in addition to a co-ordination vessel and in between had roving patrols of 5 cruisers and 5 submarines each in packs with extensive patrols and such

I'll be putting ground work up tommorow, though I suspect your anti tank missiles while obsolete will have a field day against my medium tanks, which have fairly light armour in comparison to my allies, this is however for good reasons which will become clear later on.

oh and Triv TG.

The paperwork I had to do for my boss ran *way* over the time I expected (at least I get paid for it ^_^) so sadly I only have a few rough notes.

In any event, here is the basic description of defenses you'll run into:

The first layer of defense are, of course, the fighter craft. With the military size I'm RPing at, I have 75,336 pilots. I'm going to assume that Trivalvia has enough planes for half of them, so that gives me 37,668 fighter planes. That's 7,533 flights, or 1,883 squadrons, or 471 wings. (Gah, wish I had time to finish my military ORBAT...). New planes are, of course, being manufactured, but they're being kept as replacements. The bulk of those are F-18's, although 1/6th of those planes are F-22s.

There are 13 "command airbases" that serve as primary command/repair and resupply/training facilities for the air force, and these in turn command up to 4-5 smaller airfields that can serve as secondary bases for basic refuelling and resupply. Dividing the air force among those 13 bases gives us: 36 wings assigned to each base. So, my revised figures for air coverage are:
Quadrivalve Archipelago: 1 base / 36 wings
Isle d'Monovalve: 1 base / 36 wings
Bivalve Island: 4 bases / 144 wings
North Island Territories (the cluster of six islands close to Ackistan on my map): 1 base: 36 wings
Mainland provinces: 6 bases / 216 wings
This probably leaves 4-5 wings without a base, but meh.

Please note that the ground troop numbers I quoted earlier are indeed accurate, along with the reserve forces I mentioned in the SIC post.

Mines and land-based anti-shipping missiles are the second layer of defense. Entry points to the Trivalvian Sea (the body of water between Bivalve Island and the mainland) has been extensively mined with only small corridors for commercial and military traffic. Those corridors will be gradually closed when the invasion starts. There are also layers of mines being laid around the Quadrivalve Archipelago and Isle d'Monovalve. Trivalvia is employing the Harpoon as its primary anti-shipping missile (yes, sneer at it, yes say it's obsolete but it's all I got unless you want to wait for me to upgrade). The Lance ATGMs are going to be used as a final beachside defense not just against tanks but against any transport boats you use to get them there...

Beach defenses are simple: large steel "jacks" are being laid on the beach as a passive anti-vehicle defense, so your medium tanks and APCs will find advancement somewhat difficult. Barbed wire is being strung between these jacks as a passive anti-infantry defense.

TERRAIN NOTE: the beaches in the Quadrivalve Archipelago are quite rocky; the smaller islands have several beaches where the smallest rock is 50 cm across. Good luck with beach landings there! Beaches elsewhere are your garden-variety sandy beach.

After the passive defenses, there are a series of trenches and concrete pillboxes / emplacements along the point where beach gives way to soil. Heavy machine guns, Lance ATGM emplacements, and infantry rifle and rocket sections are strung along here. Behind these are light 6-cell SAM launchers. On average, you're looking at 5 SAM launchers for every kilometer of beach. Missile employed is the ESSM.

A couple of kilometers behind the fortifications, artillery regiments have dug in along with infantry anti-air sections, and main battle tanks forming a defensive line. Artillery will be able to rain fire down on the beach section.

Further terrain notes can be found in my factbook; I've got a physical map and some terrain notes there.

Lunch break is coming to an end; I'll try to have more posted up later (next time: base defenses and secret defense plans). I remind you that this is all for reference; some of this stuff you'll be aware of through recon flights. Others will be subject to the Fog of War; any more experienced RPers can comment on what would fall to this issue.

Edit: A few details. Most of the artillery and tank positions have had camoflauge netting placed over them. Beyond tanks and artillery are several camoflauged "hedgehog" positions. Density varies to terrain; Isle d'Monovalve is fairly smooth and offers few terrain advantages to either a defender or an attacker - hedgehoging is difficult there. The Quadrivalve Archipelago has some fairly choppy terrain; plenty of defensible positions for small infantry groups, but tanks will not be able to function at longer ranges.

Some questions: I know you want to kick things off today or tomorrow; however, what kind of ground force are you committing to this invasion, and how much "game time" will elapse before the troops attempt a landing?

Just a quick note to Ezaltia: You really can't carry that many ATAIM-10s on a single bird. They're too big.

Moreover, if you're using them for general purpose air combat... expect them to do poorly. Very poorly.

the ATAIM-10 is inappropriate for use against tactical fighters due to their much greater agility as compared to the missile's intended victims.

Waiting for the ground war to kick off so I can RP my awesome air assault doctrine.

I'm committing a fairly hefty amount in total, however, the initial attack wave is quite small, I'm holding things in reserve for other reasons, the Invasion will be a masive multi pronged fast moving assault, which will begin in propably 3 IC days, or however long it takes to ensnare Naasha and Siriusa into a naval engagement.

an ORBAT will be posted up shortly

I'm committing a fairly hefty amount in total, however, the initial attack wave is quite small, I'm holding things in reserve for other reasons, the Invasion will be a masive multi pronged fast moving assault, which will begin in propably 3 IC days, or however long it takes to ensnare Naasha and Siriusa into a naval engagement.

an ORBAT will be posted up shortly

Given that I have been, I think, more than generous in attempting to describe defense strategies, terrain, and other factors you will encounter (and which I will use to my advantage), I expect more than just "a massive multi-pronged fast moving assault" in response. I also expect at least as much attention to realism as what I've tried to put in. I have no desire to play by the rules of physics and logistics only to have an enemy "wtfpwn" me by ignoring said rules.

This is more than just concern about fair play. It has taken a huge effort on my part to draw up defense plans, prepare maps (I'm working on regional maps for the various areas, showing features like beaches, smaller towns, shore defense locations, etc), prepare spreadsheets for troop status, etc. Given that I'm doing this while holding down both a full time and a part time job, *and* preparing for an art show in January, this is a significant investment of my time. I will not see that wasted.

My cards are on the table. Let's see yours.

I did not mean to sound as if I was passing over any of your preparations or the effort you've put in, it was simply a short reply to answer a question while I worked on an ORBAT, and formalised what I've been discussing with my allies on finer aspects of the overall operation, I'm dealing with said ORBAT and initial battleplan to overcome said preparations, I by no means expect to waltz in and dance through mine fields ignoring physics and the like, I'm having to be quite creative here as my mainline forces do not handle coastal assaults overly well, the last time I undertook them I lost half of the forces I committed to the landing operation, and that also was against a smaller foe.

This will hardly be a waste I can assure you that, but I take pride in my posts, and I'm not going to post up a half assed attempt just to get it here faster, however I am having to split my attention between a part time job, NS and an Assignment for University due in this friday, and understandably I have to plough more effort into the latter.

Point. That was a rather ugly post from me, and I apologize. Chalk it up to nerves, I suppose... this *will* be the first time my country has been invaded, and I am more than a little worried I'll just be steamrolled.

EDIT: In fact, given that some of the major players will be busy for the next couple of weeks, perhaps we can reconvene on Monday, Dec. 17th? That will give us all time to make detailed preparations, and pay attention to those aspects of our lives that we need to. Presumably most of us will be past exams, assignments, and deadlines by then.

I'm also thinking, if we divide this into subthreads, that we create an index thread similar to what The Macabees used for his War of Golden Succession. I can whip up the index thread and post links to the different "war theatre" threads. I think that this whole RP could probably be named the Nova Europan War... thoughts?

TSS, that post is hardly fair, you responded to an IC threat you didn't even know about yet and hadn't thought to counter before. You guys have enough advantages as it is, you could at least give us a chance to exploit weaknesses we spot in your plans.

No Problem Triv and not a bad idea at all.

Naasha, please it's what anybody would do in the buildup to an invasion, TSS is merely suplementing what is already being put into position, I haven't mentioned it myself becase it's hardly a detail you make a big clatter about.

TSS, that post is hardly fair, you responded to an IC threat you didn't even know about yet and hadn't thought to counter before. You guys have enough advantages as it is, you could at least give us a chance to exploit weaknesses we spot in your plans.

What, you haven't spotted any? I don't want to spell it out for you guys. The fact that the sonar bouys can be destroyed when you detect them [they go active every so often in a regular pattern].

Then to the south of the northwestern most island of triv's there are no bouys. Stay below the thermocline and you're hard to detect too. Besides, there are holes in the system when the sonars are purely passive. [I deployed too many anyway, I need to go and cut down the number of planes to two.]

Don't complain first thing [and subs are always a threat, always], find some loophole in it you can get through [such as I deployed the bouys to keep subs from breaking into the atlantic, not knowing that there are already some out there].

[I don't have to help you guys the whole thread do I? :p :)]

Ya, sorry. Was feeling tired and uninventive at the time of the previous post. I've cut your line of bouys in just one place and my submarines are going to try and operate on either side of it without crossing, wherever possible. I have 24 SSN's in total, operating in loose groups of 4, they ought to be pretty difficult to remove, which should prove interesting.

How Pray tell do you expect to get where the blockade is expected to be, when it's been there for a fair few pages now, I've went on record saying the only place that I was giving an extended chance to interfere with has since been blocked up, namely the channel, I'll cook up a post addressing my security measures since they evidently need elaborating on, as a prelude to my invasion, as naturally in the final stretch to the invasion I can ill afford subs running round poking holes in my illusions.

How Pray tell do you expect to get where the blockade is expected to be, when it's been there for a fair few pages now, I've went on record saying the only place that I was giving an extended chance to interfere with has since been blocked up, namely the channel, I'll cook up a post addressing my security measures since they evidently need elaborating on, as a prelude to my invasion, as naturally in the final stretch to the invasion I can ill afford subs running round poking holes in my illusions.

I'm sorry, which fleet was in the channel until Questers peppered it with missiles? Oh right, it was mine! The submarines simply split up with the fleet when it headed east and they headed west, they were on station before your blockade was established. I also don't know how you intend to completely block up the channel to submarines, since it is in Nova Europan terms is actually rather large.

There have been many maps posted with the positions of Novacom's ships in the channel and blockade, and as far as anyone knew [even NEA members most likely] your fleet was out in the atlantic.

You had your chances to correct us.

There have been many maps posted with the positions of Novacom's ships in the channel and blockade, and as far as anyone knew [even NEA members most likely] your fleet was out in the atlantic.

You had your chances to correct us.

I haven't seen any such maps, but if they show my ships as being far away in the Atlantic then they are wrong. My ships started out strung out from north of Trivalvia's Quadrivalve archipelago up into the channel (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13244908&postcount=223). These two posts detailing the Questarian air attack (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13252374&postcount=259) and the subsequent destruction of my 2nd CG (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13256905&postcount=276) imply the location of my ships as being in the channel, the 2nd CG that was left to defend the western entrance to the channel was destroyed and the others turned back to assist. Finally, this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13282653&postcount=318) details my withdrawal towards TWSP's water and the submarines being left behind.

If you would prefer it on a map:
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j157/Caliyen/Nationstates/MapforTSS.jpg
Now please do some reading before you take that snotty tone again.

EDIT: In order to try and dispel any further confusion, let me quote from my post in which the submarines and the carrier groups diverged.

[OOC: This occurs before Novacom's blockade force arrives, the missile strikes will land just in time to disrupt the initial deployment I should think.]

The fluid nature of the time in this thread might have led to some confusion, but my fleets will be long gone by the time Novacom's blockade force arrives, as they were still responding to Questers missile attacks.

Okay, now I'm confused... :confused:

TSS, I've been assuming that your planes were headed toward the Quadrivalve Archipelago (the almost hawaii-like string of islands in the northwest portion of Trivalvia. Are you headed in that direction, toward Bivalve Island (the huge honking island in the center of my nation's territory), or to the North Island Territories (the cluster of islands in my nation's northeast corner and closer to TWSP)?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13256138&postcount=222

12 pages ago, where Siriusa kindly corrected one of my picture links, everything was positioned where it appeared to be.

I will point out another thing as well, certainly the Sub groups closest to Nova Ireland would have been anhialated, as they are well within the patrols I had in place there, as my more major ports and such initially were developed on the south coast, with the Northern Ports being developed for supply, naturally I would make sure nobody was close enough.

As for your fleets position, Questers fleet was in the middle of the Atlantic, not even level with my waystation yet, so as he was there and your fleet was in the channel you would not have had your fleet being wiped out, nor would Triv's fleet have been comming up behind yours to reinforce, as the positioning there would have placed him smack bang in the middle of a blockade deployment.

Fluid Time is Handy I will aggree, but reconciling it when it's something thats developing to be that complicated it isn't so easy, if it makes it any easier I can always deploy a second fleet to chase you out of the channel and into the cage that is now the North Sea, as you have me to get past in the south, and Doom in the north, with myself to a lesser extent in the area also, the North Sea is now a larger version of the Baltic, a box within a box as it were.

This can be reconciled, but everybody has been under the impression your fleet was well into the atlantic far away from the continent, and your losses certainly match the situation of being fairly close, not such an incredible distance away, as Questers fleet simply isn't that close to the continent yet, if it were then that'd be yet another dynamic to deal with on the Naval Front and considering the scales tipped against you I doubt that is preferable.

I will however go on Record as saying this, it would appear as if Auman has done a Bunk, Derscon is accounted for, with having some weird sort of computer virus, let us hope that issues like this can be resolved before the scales tip even further.

Er... Nova, I didn't do anything to that link, I just reposted it. I'm not sure if you were implying that I modified it, but I'm just making it clear that so far I haven't done any mapping stuff.

Edit addition: So far, I've just kept the links to the maps you've used, as they seem to be the most up-to-date with stuff relevant to my theatre. I didn't really pay attention to the other stuff because, for the time being, it didn't concern me.

I meant fixing the link not the map itself, no worries there.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/68157Silver/here.png

-snip-

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that I alone decided where my forces are! I'm sorry that you got the wrong end of the stick about where my ships were deployed, I hope that you'll stop saying 'everyone' assumed my fleet was out in the Atlantic until people other than TSS start agreeing with you, however.

My 2nd fleet was north of Trivalvia, i.e. pretty much in the Atlantic, the rest were in the channel, I posted them supporting marine landings on Nova Britannia for heaven's sake!

Questers fleet is closer to the continent than you seem to think anyway, leading elements of his forces are picking through the wreckage of the Trivalvian battlegroup right now according to one of his latest posts.

Anyway, I'm not interested in 'reconciling' any misunderstandings of fluid time, I understand you pushed the construction of your base on Nova Ireland back a week when the time frame was pointed out to you, so I think the fact that I posted my fleet withdrawal after your blockade force was dispatched despite the fact that it occured before that time is a fairly moot point.

For clarity:

My ships in the channel were engaged and defeated by Questarian naval assets before your blockade vessels got anywhere near them. They proceeded to withdraw toward Soviet waters, leaving 24 submarines behind to take up their own positions.

You can make what you will of that, but they are there and they were there before you arrived. You can attack the submarines headed toward Nova Ireland if you can find them, although they won't be straying close to your harbours without good reason, you may not simply say that you annihilated them however.

I'm still waiting for acknowledgement of my cruise missile attacks by the way, the initial 30 Stargazers with their 540 AGM-158 JASSM's will be engaging your blockade force as they are deploying. The 48 B-2 Spirits will strike shortly after that time as they had to be rerouted from their attack on Doomingsland, they carry another 864 JASSM's. The missiles are subsonic but their numbers might be useful in overwhelming the seperate formations of ships that the three groups run across first (270 missiles in the first group, 270 in the second and 864 in the third), obviously I'll leave the actual targets they come across and the damage they deal down to you.

I'm a bit lost on how to proceed without Wanderjar, does anyone have any clue on how we should treat this?

TSS: For the record, Trivalvian listening posts and major bases have all deployed aerostats to compensate for the loss of their satellites. The aerostats employ both radar and optical tracking. Although the outer listening posts do not have the computer capacity to ID aircraft and missiles (otherwise QI-9 would have said more than "suspicious air activity") they can still see them. Stealth does not make you physically invisible.

TPF: Not having Wanderjar present *does* throw a huge spanner wrench in things. The prevailing feeling is that Wanderjar might be as swamped as many of us right now (Christmas, exams, deadlines, what-have-you); but Wanderjar's last post here makes me feel this is more permanent. He did recommend a huge retcon, but I think a majority decision should be made before we go that far.

Personal opinion: given the size and scope of this RP, we should have gotten together with an "interest and planning" thread and worked out some of the bugs before the first IC posts went down.

Well I think the biggest glitch so far is Wanderjar's absence, I suppose I will just continue to rp the naval combat in the meantime, I'll post later today. As a side not, Ezlita hasn't been on so I can't clarify some things with him, either.

Unless your radars are several times more powerful then any real life radar, you're not going to detect an aircraft with stealth greater or equal to that of a F-22, you're not going to detect me at any appreciable range [F-22 can only be dected by it's own radar at 20km or less, and even AWACs would have a hard time at over 50km.] There are a few things you can do to overcome this, but I'm not about to tell you.

Also, they wouldn't have gotten close enough to a ship or plane or the island to have anyone see them visually.

[BTW: you made it sound like you saw them on radar in your post, but now I'm not so sure, so I decided to cover both bases]

Post where my aerostats went aloft:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13232128&postcount=174

Note that altitude: over a kilometer. Plus those aerostats are carrying cameras similar to what Trivalvia's military spysats were carrying. At a 150 km altitude, said cameras had a resolution of 1 pixel = 5 metres.

Your fighters are big enough that at 150-200 km they would have been resolved as a shape 4-5 pixels long; it's a safe bet that the sight of 24 of them (plus 2 larger planes) moving in concert would have tripped a subroutine and devoted a camera to it. ID or not; a flock of seagulls does not move at mach 4, and there should not be anything else in the air over there. Hence suspicious activity was reported and hence the fighters were dispatched.

I'll be getting an IC response up tomorrow, just some notes guys:

Questers: My troops deployed to Nova Cornwall so you will hit occupied beaches if you land there. I just wanted you to be aware of that. Thanks for leaving me a chance to hit your ships with subs by the way, makes them seem more useful now.

TSS: I'll refrain from posting like you asked, my subs are also on passive sonar and moving at low speed nice and deep. We might have an interesting few games of cat and mouse but its gonna be very difficult for either side to find the other unless someone gets lucky or starts pinging.

Trivalvia: I mentioned sending the 1st Army Group to Trivalvia, could you advise on where you want the fast reaction units for quickest response to any landings? I'll be happy to shore up any beach defenses with my heavier forces if you like as well.

Questers: My troops deployed to Nova Cornwall so you will hit occupied beaches if you land there. I just wanted you to be aware of that. Thanks for leaving me a chance to hit your ships with subs by the way, makes them seem more useful now.

Roger that and np.

How many troops do you have there anyway?

Naasha: I'll send you a TG describing my plans...

Triv: Only problem with your aerostats, line of sight, at 1km altitude, you can spot something visually at 112.9km away, while with radar you can get 130.4km against a surface target.

My planes were flying at <50m, which means that you'd be able to spot them at 138km away visually. Seeing to the coast of Nova Britian is simply not possible.

http://radarproblems.com/calculators/horizon.htm

And the bouys are below water, the only thing on the surface is a tiny tiny bouy that transmitts to a satellite, so they're hard to find, and they aren't booby trapped, but they do have a HE warhead that goes off it tampered with.

Naasha: Finished my post, go ahead and respond.

Triv: Only problem with your aerostats, line of sight, at 1km altitude, you can spot something visually at 112.9km away, while with radar you can get 130.4km against a surface target.

My planes were flying at <50m, which means that you'd be able to spot them at 138km away visually. Seeing to the coast of Nova Britian is simply not possible.

I'll grant you the point about not being able to see to the coast of Nova Britain; since nothing came of that bit of info ICly no harm was done. Still, the 112/130 km difference amounts to a 19% decrease in detection range; nothing to sneeze at, but still sufficient for my purposes given that satellites are out.

And given the outer limit stated for visible range, the resolution of those cameras improves slightly; Using the inverse square law, we can compute a 1 pixel = 4.3 metre resolution at maximum visible range.

And the bouys are below water, the only thing on the surface is a tiny tiny bouy that transmitts to a satellite, so they're hard to find, and they aren't booby trapped, but they do have a HE warhead that goes off it tampered with.


Size of this "tiny tiny" bouy? And, since we're in the mood to split hairs, putting an HE warhead on a bouy is the same as booby trapping it.

umm, like, small rolling suitcase sized, enough for a satellite and encrpyted radio transmitter [radio is only if there are no sats available]. The HE warhead is only big enough to destroy the electronics to prevent you from getting a good look at our electronics. About the size of a grenade.

Right now I have more free time and given enough IC time for my fleet to come into a decent range, Siriusa where abouts is your fleet. I presume its heading North or in the direction of the main naval battle with the Questerian and Trivalvian fleets in the Channel?

Sorry I haven't been around for few days, looks like I missed some stuff. If someone would bring me up to speed, that'd be great.

Tyrandis: Thanks for the heads-up, I was planning to use those against bombers, primarily.

TPF: What do you need to talk about?

A couple of pages back I asked you for stats on your supercativating torpedoes, I need those.

Right now I have more free time and given enough IC time for my fleet to come into a decent range, Siriusa where abouts is your fleet. I presume its heading North or in the direction of the main naval battle with the Questerian and Trivalvian fleets in the Channel?

It's actually more like a few kilometers off the coast of Siriusa...

But it's heading vaguely north, yes.

EDIT: And, what Trivalvian fleet?

A couple of pages back I asked you for stats on your supercativating torpedoes, I need those.

Here. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12941862&postcount=136)

Speaking of stats, TSS, do you have some for the B-5s?

http://z14.invisionfree.com/TSSTechCentral/index.php?showtopic=154

Heh, I think I killed the IC thread....

Possibly, possibly...

Of course, it's also possible that everyone is now too busy with holidays. I know TWSP posted a message in the regional board saying he'll be gone for the holidays, so we might not see him for at least a week.

I'm waiting for replies.. when the holidays pass it'l pick back up.

Ok.. as much as people keep denying this is a dogpile now, too many nations have gotten involved on TPF's side.

Ok.. as much as people keep denying this is a dogpile now, too many nations have gotten involved on TPF's side.


You're forgetting a simple fact; those in NE can deploy more troops more quickly than we can. We have to transport greater distances.

You're forgetting a simple fact; those in NE can deploy more troops more quickly than we can. We have to transport greater distances.

It hasn't stopped some invading nations from deploying a million soldiers in the span of two posts.

It hasn't stopped some invading nations from deploying a million soldiers in the span of two posts.
Yes, and you guys can easily deploy far more in a shorter span of time, and yet you don't. That's your fault, not ours.

Also, I'd like to apologize for taking so long with the response...been caught up with other stuff, I'll hopefully get one up tommorow, or maybe later today...

Yes, and you guys can easily deploy far more in a shorter span of time, and yet you don't. That's your fault, not ours.

Also, I'd like to apologize for taking so long with the response...been caught up with other stuff, I'll hopefully get one up tommorow, or maybe later today...

I'm on usually only once a week, don't worry about it Doom.
The thing that keeps me from sending more troops is Alanea, god knows WTF they are up too down there.

I should be on like tomorrow or something, maybe tonight, but I got my Xbox 360 Elite so I'll be playing Halo 3.

I want to agree with the statement that the NE nations can all get more men out in the field faster than the outsiders, but of course there remains the fact that some of the outside nations are deploying more in one post than the NE nations can total.

So, while it might take a week for reinforcements to arrive for the outsiders, the NE nations would end up having no reinforcements at all.

At the beginning of the RP, it looked like there were big numbers on both sides, but now it seems like the NE big guys (Derscon, Auman, Wanderjar) have all dropped out, so rather than it looking like a fair fight, it's started to look like this.

Yeah, Wanderjar dropping out as been a real pain in the ass for me. I can't invade him, and I can't go through him to attack TWSP. So now the only thing I can do is to amphibiously invade TWSP.

Indeed, and my hands are tied until Wanderjar posts.

Which...may be awhile.

Indeed, and my hands are tied until Wanderjar posts.

Which...may be awhile.

Weeks or months

Okay, granted some of us may still be away on holidays, but between TPF and myself I think it may be time to rethink some of our plans here...

I'm going to see if I can summarize the situation so that we're all on the same page.

Basically, we have three "threads" in the war:

- TPF seeking territory and resources to resolve a resource crisis that has not been made publically aware.

- Doomingsland, AMF, Questers, flexing military muscle to aid TPF and/or gain some leverage in the region.

- Novacom planning to invade Trivalvia.

Of these, the first is most relevent to the events that sparked this war. Now, TPF has recently PMed me seeking a possible peace arrangement; I think that he, like most of us, would prefer to "get on with things" rather than wait the large amount of time for Wanderjar to return to this scenario and get things moving again.

OOCly, I'd be willing to grant peace, although I'm only one member in the NEA. ICly, there are obstacles to peace that we need to look at.

The last time TPF sued for peace, he lost a lot of credibility in the eyes of the NEA from the attack that sparked off the Battle of the Baltic. This makes any future call for peace from TPF's end difficult for NEA leaders to swallow.

To resolve this issue, I would recommend two things happen:

1. Some way for TPF's resource crisis to be independantly verified by the NEA and made public. Granted, we've never really looked at how much interaction beyond diplomatic and military exists between TPF and the rest of Nova Europa. Are there journalists from other nations within TPF able to document the food riots that TPF mentioned in one of his more recent posts? Are there independant watchdog organizations like the World Food Organization, Human Rights Watch, etc, active in TPF that could provide verification?

2. A call for peace from one of the other major powers on TPF's side. AMF and Questers are, I believe, the only two powers on TPF's side that would have the clout to pull that off, and Questers, I think, has enough respect with NEA members to pull that off without making it sound like an ultimatium.

The larger issue of NEA policy with regards to "unclaimed" territories will also have to be resolved. I don't see any way for us to return to the way things were; the NEA doesn't have the collective might to force the "foreign powers" out without a prolonged fight. We might be able to do so, but we might lose more than we gain. Major wars can destroy even the victors... look at Britain in real life after both world wars; they won, but they lost their empire in the process. So we may very well have to accept AMF presence on Nova Iceland, Novacom presence on Nova Ireland, for quite some time.

The only nation that really *must* leave the region is Doomingsland, since they are now legally trespassing on territory that does not belong to them. Since Auman now "owns" Nova Britain, this makes Doomingsland their problem, not the NEA's. If Auman and Derscon can make moves to solidify Auman's claim, the NEA might be able to negotiate an orderly handover of control (of course, if Auman goes and leaves this unattended, then we are back to the same mess we had before Auman got involved at all, and chances are the fighting in Nova Britain will continue for some time to come).

AMF's uncontested control of Nova Iceland also offers a potential solution for TPF's resource problems and a chance to resolve the war on TPF's side. A handover of all or part of Nova Iceland to TPF would likely allow TPF resources to gain (unless another territory could be given to TPF... TWSP please come back from holidays! We really need you and your Nova Africa map right now!).

So: Resolving threads 1 and 2 quickly would involve:

1. An armistice or peace treaty between TPF and the NEA, probably brokered by Questers and endorsed by AMF, which will grant TPF resources in Nova Iceland or somewhere in Nova Africa.

2. An orderly withdrawl of all forces from Nova Britain and handover to Auman.

With these actions, both sides can effectively "declare victory and go home".

You'll note that I haven't touched on the issue of Novacom's potential invasion of Trivalvia. That's because it's - both ICly and OOCly - not relevant to the larger war. The cessation of hostilities between the other larger powers would effectively remove Novacom's potential reason/excuse of invading Trivalvia to "help its allies achieve victory", but Novacom could still invade anyway (and if they did, this would certainly give the NEA just cause to kick Novacom off of Nova Ireland...).

That I think summarizes our current situation and the Best Possible Paths to a resolution. Thoughts?

Well, there's no way I'm leaving peacefully and Questers is also getting some land in Britain, so I don't see this ending in any other way then you guys backing down or throwing us out. ICly, my people would see no reason at all to comprimise when they can just win outright.

So you're willing to risk war with Auman and possibly Derscon as well? I remind you that Auman essentially owns the land your troops are tromping over...

So you're willing to risk war with Auman and possibly Derscon as well? I remind you that Auman essentially owns the land your troops are tromping over...
Um, yeah, I am. If Derscon supports Auman then he risks being thrown out of NATO. ICly, I don't recognize Auman's claim so its a moot point, and he really doesn't scare me..at all...

Hi everyone, just checking in to see if anything is new. Not much, it seems... so if something big happens, for whatever reason, could someone just send me a TG summarizing it? I don't know when I'll be able to check in again.

About the TPF-NEA peace negotiations (?), Would it just be the NEA and TPF, or everybody involved?

And Novacom, when you read this, just send me a TG letting me know. Thanks. When you get back, perhaps Triv, you, and I can all move this to a separate thread.

I'm finally going to be able to post again, my computer having been fired over 3 weeks ago, having lost a fair chunk of info I'd collated for this war, so if this does end up continuing and my posts seems to be slightly sparse or missing some detail that will be why.

I think it's safe to say nobody on our side of the war acknowledges Auman's supposed ownership of Nova Britain, and since he hasn't even put an OOC post around here I'm more inclined to ignore the entire issue altogether as I suspect he's propably had second thoughts about the idea and decided to try and save face by vanishing, there may be other reasons but at present it doesn't make for a good impression.

Wanderjar's absensce does throw a fair few spanners in the works because of the TPF front, the war in general, plus my invasion, because I had originally planned it, along with the various others who were helping, around the situation as it was before, not as it was now with several key players having vanished from the equation.

Some sort of conclusion or agreement on the TPF Wanderjar front needs to be sorted as thats half the war's Dynamic, as the thought of a lengthy war plus propably having to strike deal with counterattacks and counterinvasions potentially ending up with outsider forces on the wanderjar border (this was one outcome discussed, but not the one ideally envisioned) and the situation there still being static as that would kind of ruin a lot of things.

Certainly revealing TPF's resource crisis would accelerate a ceasefire, but even then, I do doubt it would make for a convincing lasting peace, putting the current war back at most propably 6 IC months, except then if wanderjar isn't back yet or has gone for african wanderjar it leaves the situation with there being a non-war because TPF is surrounded by an impenetrable black hole, and all of the constraints accossiated with it, as without Wanderjar, it throws the number game so far out of Kilter it's embarassing.

Well, at this point, more due to OOC reasons than anything else, I am seeking an independent peace with the NEA. Whether or war continues between Doom and whoever is not my problem if I sue for peace.

Siriusa; Right now it looks like just TPF and the NEA, although as I stated I would prefer that some of the bigger players like Questers and AMF sat in as well; their presence and endorsement of a peace agreement can help to limit the scope of the war considerably and maybe even end it.

TPF; to help kick things off, perhaps you can answer a couple of questions:

1. We know from your post about the food riot that TPF is close to collapse, however, I didn't see any real indication that foreign press were present. Just how free is the press in TPF and how easy can foreign journalists get involved.

2. Is there an International Red Cross presence in TPF?

With the answers to those questions, I think we can move ahead with the "MacKenzie Compromise".

Also, I'm going to TG Auman... he bought Nova Britain; I think it's time he owned up to that responsibility.

1. We know from your post about the food riot that TPF is close to collapse, however, I didn't see any real indication that foreign press were present. Just how free is the press in TPF and how easy can foreign journalists get involved.




Its not close to collapse really, just think the early food riots in Imperial Germany during WWI, but there's a lot of discontent because almost everything is going to the war effort and people don't like that really. Foreign Journalists are common, especially in peacetime. During war its more limited on what they can see, so its harder to get information but not impossible. Despite what many people think about my nation they actually have very good civil rights.


2. Is there an International Red Cross presence in TPF?
No. There are several organizations similar to them that operate inside TPF, but not of them are really international, but they do operations in other nations.

Okay, so we can probably see independant analysists and journalists bringing the situation to light, but no international aid groups reporting on a humanitarian disaster. Local groups would probably be treated with some skepticism until independant confirmation of your situation reaches the government level.

I think I know how to push things in this direction. Give me a minute while I dig up my "Dalton Dyer" persona...

Also, I'm going to TG Auman... he bought Nova Britain; I think it's time he owned up to that responsibility.

Don't bother. Both of us have effectively stopped paying attention to this thread. The purpose for buying Nova Britain is no longer necessary. AFAIK, I have a grand army in Tigerlan, and all the forces that were in TWSP are now sitting in Wanderjar, and I pulled everything else out.

TWSP no longer has my support. TWSP is also not paying attention to this thread.

Wanderjar is in suspended animation.

Tigerlan isn't involved.

As the three reasons Auman and I were involved are now no longer applicable, we're basically no longer involved.

So carry on.

...

Well, I think I have reached the point where my patience has been expended.

I offered a chance for a compromise, for some chance to end this quickly with all sides saving face, and this is the thanks I get.

ICly, I know very well that the cards against us are stacked and now they are so stacked that if we were to continue, the NEA - the alliance I spent valuable time first setting up and then re-establishing - becomes nothing more than a sick joke. To see so much of my time wasted because big powers decide to meddle and then leave us smaller nations to pick up the pieces is well and truly maddening.

Since Auman, Derscon, Wanderjar, and possibly TWSP are now effectively out of the picture, I vote for a retcon. Either that, or we just fast forward to the point where Nova Europa is one big occupied territory.

However this turns out, there would have to be some serious sweet-talking to convince me not to leave NS. I am pissed to the max over how this turned out.

Given the situation I am asking my allies to settle for a peace. Basically, Doom and Nova, you can have some of GB, around half or something, and Questers and AMF can either withdraw or we can work on some land or reparations for you. I'll take Nova Iceland and jointly share it with NEA, that'll help my IC problems long enough for me to find some more land. I also recommend we all sign a non-agression pact so the NEA doesn't feel that Doom or whoever may attack again at a later date.

Finally, I recommend we kick Wanderjar from the region. He isn't active and started a new nation.

I would like to personally thank Doom, AMF, Novacom, and Questers for their assistance during this war.

Also, we could use Nova Africa has some land to give.

Don't bother. Both of us have effectively stopped paying attention to this thread. The purpose for buying Nova Britain is no longer necessary. AFAIK, I have a grand army in Tigerlan, and all the forces that were in TWSP are now sitting in Wanderjar, and I pulled everything else out.

TWSP no longer has my support. TWSP is also not paying attention to this thread.

Wanderjar is in suspended animation.

Tigerlan isn't involved.

As the three reasons Auman and I were involved are now no longer applicable, we're basically no longer involved.

So carry on.

Thanks alot, I thought I'd get some kind of help from you, you made it sound that way over IM; at least Tigerlan told me flat out he was sitting on the sidelines.

And Triv, I'm going to try and talk you into staying, we need SOMEONE in the NEA that will hold it together, if you leave I forsee a lot more players than me leaving the alliance.

TPF, that might be difficult seeing as I laid claim to Nova Iceland.....

Doom, the missiles I fired travel at faster than Mach speed, meaning at 40 km, which is where they started shooting, it would take less than 5 or 6 seconds to hit thier targets... it wouldn't give them any time to pull thier armored cars over and bail out; they should be as dead as my GAR guys.

The Shardstorm weapons are usually satelite guided but for obvious reasons I couldn't use that, I was trying to find a way around it. By now it would be too little too late for me to say something about your chemicals that are heavier than air and somehow amazingly have a moleculer composition thats smaller than it but I let you use them. Theoretical stuff (ie Techwanking to people who aren't as creative) is one of the things that makes II so fun...

TPF, that might be difficult seeing as I laid claim to Nova Iceland.....

I can share it with you. Or you can have it and I can find somewhere else.

Erm, actualy they'd have several minutes before the missiles got there @ mach one, unless your missiles were somehow traveling 8 k/ps which is the velocity of a space shuttle in orbit (which incedentally is well over mach one)...mach one @ sea level would be about 0.33146 k/ps, so do the math, they'd be warned well in advance, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt for targetting these things (I'm not quite sure how you'd know the exact location of my scout cars and would be capable of targetting them from 40 kilometers away without having a UAV in the area or a guy on the ground with a laser designator, these are after all precision weapons meant to destroy one individual vehicle and not area effect weapons like a munitions dispensing cruise missile)

You probably should have used RADAR instead of that other wierd thing...at least RADAR would have had a chance since its a proven concept. Also, purely satellite guided air-to-air missiles =/= bad idea, the firing solution isn't going to be precise enough, although you could use satellite RADAR in place of AWACS (as I do in alot of cases, except for this one since all the satellites are too busy being dead). In the case of a BVR engagement AWACS would just get the missile in the general ballpark of the target and then the missile's own homing systems would take over when it goes terminal, the AWACS doesn't guide it ALL the way there.

The filter bypassing agent is weaponized halon...even ordinary halon is heavier than air.

Full writeup: http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom/index.php?showtopic=2509&hl=

Also, happy new year everyone.

Now that I've had a good night's sleep and a chance to reflect over yesterday's revelations, I would like to propose the following land divisions (mostly like what TPF has proposed, just a few changes here and there):

Nova Iceland becomes the property of Automagfreek and TPF; exact divisions can be hashed out between them.

Questers and Doomingsland can divide Nova Britian amongst themselves, although I *will* recommend that a section of southeast Nova Britain (probably going north to where "London" would be), be a NEA-controlled zone (think of Cuba/Guantanamo Bay, except without the Jack Nicholson-style marines). I would recommend some arms-limitation (no long-range ballistic missiles or strategic bombers, no superdreadnoughts or other uber-weapons) that all parties would be bound by in the area, but I doubt Doom will go for that.

Nova Ireland becomes Novacom's property.

Nova Norway will be divided half-and-half between the NEA and the Errikan Empire. I would recommend that the NEA get the south half (so as to retain some control over the strait of water leading out of the NeoBaltic to the North Sea) and the Errikan Empire get the north half. The NEA-controlled half will be a trust territory, held against the day some new, small, and RP-responsible nation chooses to establish themselves there.

I won't recommend Wanderjar being "kicked from the region", but I will recommend censures by NEA nations against Auman, Derscon, and Wanderjar (hey - they're not paying attention, so why should they care?), and a committment to kick them out if they get involved in our RPs in future. I have no tolerance for players that go in all godlike and then leave the rest of us to clean up their mess.

Well, I do kind of want to have a little ACTUAL combat tbh, not just this boring missile spam stuff, and I'm sure alot of the others in teh NB theatre feel the same...all of this maneuvering only to end it before my main body collides with their defensive lines would feel like a total waste...

*points to snapped patience* This is why I, at least, am seeking a quick end to this farce. Besides, you're getting what you want and your troops don't have to risk their lives; why complain?

Now that I've had a good night's sleep and a chance to reflect over yesterday's revelations, I would like to propose the following land divisions (mostly like what TPF has proposed, just a few changes here and there):

Nova Iceland becomes the property of Automagfreek and TPF; exact divisions can be hashed out between them.

Questers and Doomingsland can divide Nova Britian amongst themselves, although I *will* recommend that a section of southeast Nova Britain (probably going north to where "London" would be), be a NEA-controlled zone (think of Cuba/Guantanamo Bay, except without the Jack Nicholson-style marines). I would recommend some arms-limitation (no long-range ballistic missiles or strategic bombers, no superdreadnoughts or other uber-weapons) that all parties would be bound by in the area, but I doubt Doom will go for that.

Nova Ireland becomes Novacom's property.

Nova Norway will be divided half-and-half between the NEA and the Errikan Empire. I would recommend that the NEA get the south half (so as to retain some control over the strait of water leading out of the NeoBaltic to the North Sea) and the Errikan Empire get the north half. The NEA-controlled half will be a trust territory, held against the day some new, small, and RP-responsible nation chooses to establish themselves there.

I won't recommend Wanderjar being "kicked from the region", but I will recommend censures by NEA nations against Auman, Derscon, and Wanderjar (hey - they're not paying attention, so why should they care?), and a committment to kick them out if they get involved in our RPs in future. I have no tolerance for players that go in all godlike and then leave the rest of us to clean up their mess.

Actually, would it be possible for the Errikan Empire to take the southern half? That is essentially immediately adjacent to the current Errikan Nordenland territory, which would greatly simplify things.

That ultimately would depend on Ezaltia and Beta Aurigue VII - assuming *they're* still paying attention. They depend on that strait for naval access.

But if they're okay with it; go ahead; we can make the switch when the treaties are signed.

*points to snapped patience* This is why I, at least, am seeking a quick end to this farce. Besides, you're getting what you want and your troops don't have to risk their lives; why complain?
Because it's not as fun? I don't particularly care about "winning" or any of that I'm more concerned with having an entertaining RP...

*sigh* There's just no pleasing some people...

Look. ICly, the NEA has been left up a creek without a paddle. It would be insane for us to want to press the fight since we know we'll be sending troops to their deaths for no reason. If you want your pound of flesh, look elsewhere.

TPF wants this to end. I want this to end. My fellow NEAers either want this to end or have lost interest entirely. There is no point in continuing.

Well, tbh there's no reason for us to agree to peace if you're going to be demanding parts of Nova Britain...and you aren't exactly inviting me to the conference despite the fact that my forces make up the bulk of the Coalition forces on Nova Britain and have inflicted the majority of the damage on NEA ground forces in the theatre...you're really making it hard for me to ICly make peace.

I can share it with you. Or you can have it and I can find somewhere else.


Sharing isn't something the Freeks are good at.

Sharing isn't something the Freeks are good at.

Fine. Have it to yourself.

Thanks alot, I thought I'd get some kind of help from you, you made it sound that way over IM; at least Tigerlan told me flat out he was sitting on the sidelines.

Initially, I was going to. Wanderjar, Auman, Tigerlan, and I had a very nice plan going on. Alas, Tigerlan gave RP rights to Wanderjar, who is no longer posting. My hands are tied until Wanderjar posts. Which he's not going to. Auman saw that the thread was a shitfest and decided that he doesn't want involved any more. And then, AMF/Doom got involved, even though I was already supporting the other side, and since they're both NATO and so am I, I'm not about to attack them, because I'm generally not a dick. Sorry about hanging you out to dry -- and yes, I do sincerely mean that, for whatever it's worth.

I won't recommend Wanderjar being "kicked from the region", but I will recommend censures by NEA nations against Auman, Derscon, and Wanderjar (hey - they're not paying attention, so why should they care?), and a committment to kick them out if they get involved in our RPs in future. I have no tolerance for players that go in all godlike and then leave the rest of us to clean up their mess.

Woah, woah, woah... MY MESS? In case you forgot, TWICE I tried to settle the fucking thing so what is happening now didn't. We were planning, initially, to stop the war as quickly as possible so what is happening now didn't happen. However, Auman and Wanderjar stopped posting, which left me to do nothing, since I needed them both too pull it off.

TPF pulled Questers, AMF, and Doomingsland in because he was afraid of being crushed. You want someone to blame for the mess? Blame TPF indirectly, and blame Doom/AMF -- who, by the way, as Doom told me, intended to make Nova Europa their first target for their duel conquest campaigns.

Normally, I wouldn't be so bitchy and childish as to go "OMG BUT LUK WUT HE SED," but I will not take the blame for this, when I was the one working to STOP IT, but instead, TWSP and TPF were both incredibly stubborn and perpetuated the conflict.

I am not taking the blame for this shit.

I'm completely at a loss as to why people are taking this RP so seriously that they have devolved into OOC bickering and finger pointing.

EDIT - what I had to say really doesn't matter now.

Since I messed up a bit in my last few posts let me see if I can make it up here...

Derscon, let me publicly say that I am sorry for placing blame on you. Granted, I wasn't singling you out, but I shouldn't have included you in the list. I apologize and I hope you can forgive me.

Doomingsland, I grant that you have no IC reasons for accepting peace. If that's how you want to play it, then so be it. However, given the general lack of responses over the past day from other NEA members, I fear that I may be the only person left who might even consider continuing the war for your sake. I'm not interested in committing IC suicide, so if you want all of Nova Britain, it's yours.

Ditto for you as well, Errikland... all of Nova Norway is yours for the taking. I doubt we can see a NEA control zone because I fear there is no NEA anymore. My advice is move in there now before somebody else decides to do so.

To the other NEA members - or ex-members if you do decide to split up - I offer my apologies for how this alliance was built and my own efforts in this war. Granted I am a minor offender compared to some, but it cannot be denied that my efforts here did not help matters one bit.

AMF, you are right, and it is just a game. Still, no matter the game, it still hurts to lose, and it hurts to lose this badly. So I hope you will excuse the occasional emotional outburst from us as a result of losing.

To the good RPers out there - you know who you are - I apologize that things went this badly on behalf of everyone. Maybe someday we'll get it right.

And now, with all of that said... I'm going to take a week's vacation from all NS activities. I might post in the Draftroom, but you won't see me again in II until the 11th.

AMF, you are right, and it is just a game. Still, no matter the game, it still hurts to lose, and it hurts to lose this badly. So I hope you will excuse the occasional emotional outburst from us as a result of losing.


Word to the wise; There is no such thing as losing in NS, merely changes in storylines.

I'm completely at a loss as to why people are taking this RP so seriously that they have devolved into OOC bickering and finger pointing.

Sorry about that, but I had to shift the blame somewhere off me, and it's not like you'd really be ashamed to be labelled an Imperialist. ;) But it's an image thing. :p

And Triv, as I said in the TG, don't worry about it. :) I shouldn't have reacted so harshly to the accusations. :/

Since I messed up a bit in my last few posts let me see if I can make it up here...

Derscon, let me publicly say that I am sorry for placing blame on you. Granted, I wasn't singling you out, but I shouldn't have included you in the list. I apologize and I hope you can forgive me.

Doomingsland, I grant that you have no IC reasons for accepting peace. If that's how you want to play it, then so be it. However, given the general lack of responses over the past day from other NEA members, I fear that I may be the only person left who might even consider continuing the war for your sake. I'm not interested in committing IC suicide, so if you want all of Nova Britain, it's yours.

Ditto for you as well, Errikland... all of Nova Norway is yours for the taking. I doubt we can see a NEA control zone because I fear there is no NEA anymore. My advice is move in there now before somebody else decides to do so.

To the other NEA members - or ex-members if you do decide to split up - I offer my apologies for how this alliance was built and my own efforts in this war. Granted I am a minor offender compared to some, but it cannot be denied that my efforts here did not help matters one bit.

AMF, you are right, and it is just a game. Still, no matter the game, it still hurts to lose, and it hurts to lose this badly. So I hope you will excuse the occasional emotional outburst from us as a result of losing.

To the good RPers out there - you know who you are - I apologize that things went this badly on behalf of everyone. Maybe someday we'll get it right.

And now, with all of that said... I'm going to take a week's vacation from all NS activities. I might post in the Draftroom, but you won't see me again in II until the 11th.

An absolutely perfect statement for the circumstances. AMF is technically correct about the winning/losing matter, but I'm sure he can understand the concern of many about how one sided this was against them.

Oh, and on the note to me, I will get on that.

Its not lck of interest slowing me down its the once a week online time.

Erm, actualy they'd have several minutes before the missiles got there @ mach one, unless your missiles were somehow traveling 8 k/ps which is the velocity of a space shuttle in orbit (which incedentally is well over mach one)...mach one @ sea level would be about 0.33146 k/ps, so do the math, they'd be warned well in advance, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt for targetting these things (I'm not quite sure how you'd know the exact location of my scout cars and would be capable of targetting them from 40 kilometers away without having a UAV in the area or a guy on the ground with a laser designator, these are after all precision weapons meant to destroy one individual vehicle and not area effect weapons like a munitions dispensing cruise missile)

You probably should have used RADAR instead of that other wierd thing...at least RADAR would have had a chance since its a proven concept. Also, purely satellite guided air-to-air missiles =/= bad idea, the firing solution isn't going to be precise enough, although you could use satellite RADAR in place of AWACS (as I do in alot of cases, except for this one since all the satellites are too busy being dead). In the case of a BVR engagement AWACS would just get the missile in the general ballpark of the target and then the missile's own homing systems would take over when it goes terminal, the AWACS doesn't guide it ALL the way there.

The filter bypassing agent is weaponized halon...even ordinary halon is heavier than air.

Full writeup: http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom/index.php?showtopic=2509&hl=

Also, happy new year everyone.

The Silver Strike ASM missiles reach terminal velocity at approximatly MACH # 4 area after 10 kilometers travel distance, thier purpose is long range stand off munition. So at Approx 1,360 meters per second terminal it would take no more than shortly over a minute for the weapon to reach. These weapons don't have very powerful warheads but they would whipe out an unarmored/light armored target. I based these off on an AA missile, they can use RADAR, LADAR, or Semi-Active Guidance to home in on ground targets. A Hellfire (relatively old weapon) can hit targets from out to 8 miles without a designator to target the enemy and there are missiles capable of hitting things from as far out as 200 km IRL, 40 km for an Air to ground missile seems reasonable in a world where ICBM's can fly halfway around the RL earth.

Please check your TG's too Doom :).

I'll make a post about those Interdicters as soon as I can.

Hellfire is Laser Designated, it needs the target to be lased. Brimstone [UK/France hellfire variant with active radar] is air launched and can lock after launch, but only has a range of 12km, other ground or helo launched AGMs are either TV or wire guided [both impossible at Mach 4 due to the reaction time of the person targeting it.

To get Mach 4 with an AGM is kinda hard unless you're using a semi-ballistic path, which wastes fuel and time, and for radar guided missiles against ground targets leaves you trying to sort through the ground clutter.

The only AGMs capable of hitting targets at more then like 50km are inertial guided with an active seeker in terminal, or GPS guided, which is ok against slow or nonmoving targets like ships/buildings, not rapid moving scout cars.