NationStates Jolt Archive

As is custom.

Voila.

So, to clarify, is the Eastern Powers getting involved or is it just TPF?

I believe its just me for now. Tigerlan may join my side but that is doubtful.

So far, Wanderjar has declared neutrality and Maldorians & Tigerlan aren't participating, though I'm not sure of the Wanderjar situation as TPF keeps invading his airspace, so that might play out at a different angle or something. But so far, it's just TPF and the NEA mostly.

Not exactly: Tocrowika has expressed "support" for TPF, and Doomingsland is preparing to send in a fleet. Novacom is also sending a fleet, although I think - judging from his last IC post, he's going to wait and just pick up the pieces after we're done fighting.

Not the best situation, but then the Allies of WWII didn't have a whole lot of say in when to fight Nazi Germany...

EDIT: Reread Novacom's post and I confess it gives me the shivers. Please tell me you're not bringing in C&C Red Alert 2 mind control, Novacom...

I'm still mulling over what I'm going to be doing for this war actually, beleive me if I ever considered doing another Psychic invasion it would be with mutual consent, the only possible usage of any of my Psychic Technologies would be in rear areas to prevent any insurgencies, when I do act, even then a Psychic Invasion wouldn't much be on the cards, the Black Skull Enforcers simply haven't enough hardware to perform such a wide scale operation, as understandably it's a niche strategy, one that would in my opinion throw off the tempo off the war.

Just Remember however, the presense of such hardware on this new waystation doesn't mean it will be used, just that I'm preparing for all realities, so if an oppourtunity arose and everybody was happy with it, it can be done with groundwork having been laid without anybody complaining about such hardware getting there faster than it would if it was near assembled and ready not too far away.

Nice to know though that I've given someone a scare, though although I call my Psychic technologies Psychic Beacons and Amplifiers, they have more basing in reality than a giant antenna with a few diembodied brains in vats strapped to it, it's more linked in with Tesla than you'd realise, and I mean actual tesla Theory and Technologies not Tesla Lightning Bolts out of strange towers, and don't think it's perfect either, it can backfire as spectacularly in it's own way as nuclear generation, no fallout certainly, but lethal in it's own way to anything electrical...

Red Alert 2 much?

Huh?

Huh?

been asked if you play Red Alert 2 much?

Hm... before the flamethrowers come out, perhaps we should define technology limits. Most of us here are MT, although some operate on a late MT category. Likewise, most of us are using technologies that don't take great liberties with the laws of nature. Much as I like the Command and Conquer series (and I'm ticked that they didn't provide support for laptop video cards... I was really looking forward to playing C&C 3), I feel that much of the exotic technologies posited in some of those games are a touch too exotic for this RP - whether or not they obey the "laws of murphy". Hence my apprehension.

This is, however my opinion, and as I'm a secondary player in this RP, I'll leave the floor open for others to voice where they want to draw the line. Perhaps we can find a way to keep everyone, if not happy, then at least content. :)

Hm... before the flamethrowers come out, perhaps we should define technology limits. Most of us here are MT, although some operate on a late MT category. Likewise, most of us are using technologies that don't take great liberties with the laws of nature. Much as I like the Command and Conquer series (and I'm ticked that they didn't provide support for laptop video cards... I was really looking forward to playing C&C 3), I feel that much of the exotic technologies posited in some of those games are a touch too exotic for this RP - whether or not they obey the "laws of murphy". Hence my apprehension.

This is, however my opinion, and as I'm a secondary player in this RP, I'll leave the floor open for others to voice where they want to draw the line. Perhaps we can find a way to keep everyone, if not happy, then at least content. :)

It's understandable, but I'm thinking that we just go on the "well, everyone should understand what is reasonable," rather than place a rather arbitrary limit on something. If a nation uses something that quite a few of the participants find "too advanced," they can be kindly informed of such, and then they can edit accordingly.

On another matter, has anyone seen TPF lately? We've all made our moves, but we're stuck until he makes his next move.

As I see it, the lineup is as follows. Primary combatants refer to the people who effectively started the war; in this case, TPF and the nation he targetted, TWSP. Secondary combatants refer to people who have aligned themselves on one side or another and have actually committed forces to the front. Tertiary refer to those who have voiced support for one side or another but have not (or not yet) called up forces to fight.

NEA:
TWSP (primary)
Trivalvia (secondary)
Ezaltia (secondary)
Naasha (secondary)
Beta Aurigue VII(MT version, secondary)
Sirusa (tertiary)
SaintB (tertiary)
Derscon (secondary?)
Vetalia (tertiary?)

Axis: (if TPF or others wish to suggest a better designation, please do so)
TPF (primary)
Doomsingsland (secondary)
Trocowika (tertiary?)
Vonatas (tertiary? possible neutral?)
RedTide2 (secondary, minor?)

Neutral/Nonaligned:
Wanderjar

Loyalty Unknown:
Novacom (possible NEA-alignment?)

The sides do appear a little uneven, although bear in mind that most of the nations on the NEA side were bound by their membership in the Nova Europa Alliance to provide defensive support when their fellow members are attacked. Plus, TPF has, at least in comparison to the NEA nations I've seen thus far, the largest defense budget per capita, which might even out the sides a little.

Now, Wanderjar's declaration of neutrality, occuring so late (understandable, given real life issues) does pose an issue. Does this occur *before* TPF forces set up their staging area to launch their attack, or after? If before, than TPF's invasion plan just got blocked unless TPF was willing to risk open warfare with Wanderjar. If after, then the war can go on, since TPF field commanders would probably say they were obeying Kaiser Baker's injunction by leaving Wanderjaran territory to enter Soviet territory (this would also give them no easy way to retreat unless they secure airfields within Soviet territory, in which case they could just as easily bring in reinforcements as flee).

As for TWSP noticing TPF's large invasion force, I confess I'm a little confused as to how. The last indication of this was NEA-owned satellites noticing the TPF force crossing into Wanderjaran territory, but with the subsequent destruction of large chunks of the NEA network, it's safe to assume that further tracking becomes difficult. (As an aside, TPF, I believe we are *still* waiting for your casualty reports from Naashan and Ezaltian anti-satellite weapons deployed against your satellite network...). Ground spies/scouts in Wanderjaran territory might spot and relay info on the TPF force to Soviet commanders, but that would be less reliable (we might not see exactly where TPF plans to break through into Soviet lands), and even an unofficial diplomatic "FYI" between Wanderjar and TWSP might also explain Soviet knowledge of TPF forces. So far, however we'd need to see posts which can establish these events in the RP.

Hopefully this will help keep us all on the same page. All errors remain my own.

My military spends more per capita than TPF's by a small margin, if we have the same amount of forces relative to our population. If he uses a higher percentage of his population than I do, which means more than about 1.5% in this case, then I will outstrip him by a much higher margin. Just as a clarification.

I have an embassy in Wanderjar, and spies as well, which were (incidentally) based there to inform on TPF and the development of a new tank in a previous RP.

Why am I on the axis? What is you're reasoning that I'll join that side.

I'm planning on neutrality. Unless someone attacks Maldorians, or Maldorians attacks someone, I'm not going to have anything to do anyways.

Plus, TPF has, at least in comparison to the NEA nations I've seen thus far, the largest defense budget per capita, which might even out the sides a little.

Umm...well, I guess that's fair. Derscon is not NEA, but Derscon, from the looks of it, has the highest defence budget. Here's a list in order from highest defence budget to lowest:

NEA
Derscon: $110.97 trillion
Beta Aurigae VII: $99.95 trillion
Vetalia: 31.11 trillion
Siriusa: 14.51 trillion
Ezaltia: 9.64 trillion
Naasha: $7.29 trillion
TWSP: $4.39 trillion
Trivalvia: $3.53 trillion
SaintB: $3.01 trillion

Axis
Tocrowkia: $101.21 trillion
Red Tide2: $67.01 trillion
The PeoplesFreedom: $54.11 trillion
Doomingsland: $15.61 trillion

As for TWSP noticing TPF's large invasion force, I confess I'm a little confused as to how. The last indication of this was NEA-owned satellites noticing the TPF force crossing into Wanderjaran territory, but with the subsequent destruction of large chunks of the NEA network, it's safe to assume that further tracking becomes difficult. (As an aside, TPF, I believe we are *still* waiting for your casualty reports from Naashan and Ezaltian anti-satellite weapons deployed against your satellite network...). Ground spies/scouts in Wanderjaran territory might spot and relay info on the TPF force to Soviet commanders, but that would be less reliable (we might not see exactly where TPF plans to break through into Soviet lands), and even an unofficial diplomatic "FYI" between Wanderjar and TWSP might also explain Soviet knowledge of TPF forces. So far, however we'd need to see posts which can establish these events in the RP.

Maybe it's because it's 700 divisions, and even townspeople could tell you that. It honestly isn't that hard to spot that large of an army. Also, I don't think the entire NEA grid is gone, and my satellites are also in the area, sent AFTER the attack, and aren't blown up, since no nation, ICly, has any idea that Derscon is going to be getting involved militarily -- those are humanitarian ships and planes being sent, after all. ;)

To prove I have spies, and TPF'ian contacts:

PROOF! (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13036992&postcount=4)

Well... I have two big questions before I can post again ICly...

1. Why hasn't anyone responded to my offer to 'lend' satelites to nations who need them, I have a network roughly the size of the USA.

2. Does anyone have soldiers in Nova Britania?

Well... I have two big questions before I can post again ICly...

1. Why hasn't anyone responded to my offer to 'lend' satelites to nations who need them, I have a network roughly the size of the USA.

2. Does anyone have soldiers in Nova Britania?

1. I'm sorry, we must have missed your offer, could you post a link here?

2. No, it's an unclaimed territory, everyone here had like this 'silent' agreement to not invade nor claim those before TPF, Tigerlan, Maldorians and Wanderjar arrived.

On another matter, has anyone seen TPF lately? We've all made our moves, but we're stuck until he makes his next move.

He's just taking his time, I guess... but if he's really busy, perhaps we should just put this RP on hold.

The sides do appear a little uneven, although bear in mind that most of the nations on the NEA side were bound by their membership in the Nova Europa Alliance to provide defensive support when their fellow members are attacked. Plus, TPF has, at least in comparison to the NEA nations I've seen thus far, the largest defense budget per capita, which might even out the sides a little.

You haven't seen BA7's budget, have you?

As for TWSP noticing TPF's large invasion force, I confess I'm a little confused as to how. The last indication of this was NEA-owned satellites noticing the TPF force crossing into Wanderjaran territory, but with the subsequent destruction of large chunks of the NEA network, it's safe to assume that further tracking becomes difficult.

But only NEA nations were targeted. If I'm not mistaken, Derscon's system is still fully functioning and he firmly supports the NEA.

(As an aside, TPF, I believe we are *still* waiting for your casualty reports from Naashan and Ezaltian anti-satellite weapons deployed against your satellite network...).

Actually, a number of us retaliated, myself included. And although he did make one post relating to that, I was under the impression that there wouldn't be an "initial" bombardment, I thought that we would simply keep firing until he was blasted out of space, so he needs to reply to that.

Ground spies/scouts in Wanderjaran territory might spot and relay info on the TPF force to Soviet commanders, but that would be less reliable (we might not see exactly where TPF plans to break through into Soviet lands)

Well, that is quite a large ground force and would still be easy to track through spies.

TPF, you might want to consider just putting this on hold for another day, as it seems you are rather busy IRL. It would be easier for all of us if we had more time that we could all commit to this RP.

Vonatas - I inferred from your message to TPF that you were leaning in his direction, hence why I included you in the list. I apologize for the error.

(BTW, this list was compiled OOCly, and does not affect Trivalvia's relations ICly with the nations involved, on either side. It's purpose is solely for reference).

Derscon: your points are well made; thanks for the clarification (amazing how 'addicted' to high-tech solutions we can get sometimes :D ) The name on the NEA side derives from the fact that the bulk of the nations involved are formally members of the Nova Europan Alliance. Since you're aligned with said side (or at least with TWSP), I grouped you in there for simplicity. (Kind of like the USSR and China were grouped in with the Allies in WW2 - 'enemy of my enemy' and all that).

Again, if someone has better names for the two sides, I'd be happy to hear them :)

SaintB: I've not yet had a chance to respond to it, ICly, as the Trivalvian government is currently in an uproar, and the military (which has a few satellites it can send up to replace a fraction of what was lost) is concerned about the safety of the remaining satellite network. It doesn't make much sense to put up or acquire new satellites if they'll just get shot down before they can become useful.

However, I expect the situation wll change over time. As things develop, you'll probably hear from Trivalvia and other nations (if others haven't already spoken up - I'll be going over to the IC thread as soon as I finish this post) about that offer before too long.

As for Nova Britain/Nova Brittonia/Whatever-we're-calling-it-this-week... it's looking more and more like a red herring; something designed to provoke the war. Since TPF forces have not actually landed on Nova British soil and since RedTide2 is more providing secuity (which I intepret to be more of a defensive role), it doesn't make sense to send forces and engage yet another nation in the war. To qoute Londo Mollari: "Only a fool fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the kingdom of fools fights a war on twelve fronts." :D

Don't worry, Triv. I have a plan, it is not my plan to do anything disruptive. Wait, see, and not worry.

1. I'm sorry, we must have missed your offer, could you post a link here?

2. No, it's an unclaimed territory, everyone here had like this 'silent' agreement to not invade nor claim those before TPF, Tigerlan, Maldorians and Wanderjar arrived.

1. Its part of my first post in the IC thread.

2. Well my idea was to deploy a force there with the intention of making it a place the Doomies can't base their troops, at least not without a fight. If Britian is unclaimed and unoccupied then Doom could land forces there and have a base of operations very close to TWSP. I'm not invading... my total armed forces as I rp are les than 9 million soldiers and I wouldn't want a headache with trying to control so much territory.

I'm currently working on getting permission from Blobinton to move my forces through there to aid you TW, I have permission from The Tigerlanian State of Spectare to use their airspace.

You just claimed a nation, weird.

You just claimed a nation, weird.

No, I was thinking of using it to secure TWSP's flank. I'd be leaving as soon as it was a good idea... I'm not imperialistic.

I was in Portland on a school trip. I had thought I had told TWSP. So ill responses up here as soon as I can.

Ah. Welcome back, then, TPF.

Trivalvia, I read your post about the Barracudas.

For the record, TWSP still builds and operates them, if you need some, just ask.

Out of Idle Curiosity is Nova Britania or whatever actually populated?

I believe so; TheFedralUnion did have that area claimed once, but he's left the region proper and he's made no move to acknowledge this RP one way or another. It seems safe to assume then, that he's not keeping his claim and he has moved his people en masse.

Given that the major action seems to be heating up on the continent proper, I reiterate my suspicion that TPF's claim was a red herring.

well in that case, I have my own things in mind for some of that territory.

A reminder to all combatants: now that the shooting has started, remember to call out exactly how much damage your forces take from enemy fire. Descriptions like "took some damage but not too much" are too vague and can lead to potential bickering over who defeated whom.

TWSP, thanks for the offer, but Trivalvia's going to pay its own way in this war, as best as it can :) By getting those two extra factories built and ramping up the existing one, Trivalvia is adding some insurance to its production end to help keep the war effort afloat.

A reminder to all combatants: now that the shooting has started, remember to call out exactly how much damage your forces take from enemy fire. Descriptions like "took some damage but not too much" are too vague and can lead to potential bickering over who defeated whom.

Well, you can still use those kinds of descriptions, as long as you start writing about if you're moving forward, being pushed back, etc. I, personally, refuse to use numbers in an RP, so it's all in the text or clarified OOCly.

Setting aside numbers isn't exactly easy anyway, as by the end of the RP numbers at the beginning will be smaller than those at the end, even after say a meatgrinder, due to the rapid populaton growth we all enjoy, the only certainty will be say tanks and aircraft knocked out, and even in certain cases (I'm basing this off my own production capacities with my Notorious Tokon) loosing a few thousand is but a drop in a vast vast ocean.

There is something called Fluid Time. Some of which whom in this RP have been ignoring it. Its because of fluid time that numbers matter. The rapid population growth doesn't apply.

There is something called Fluid Time. Some of which whom in this RP have been ignoring it. Its because of fluid time that numbers matter. The rapid population growth doesn't apply.

Sorry, but how exactly has it been getting ignored? As far as I'm concered, I haven't seen anyone claiming that their nation is expanding at a rate of 5-9 million people a day*, using equipment that they just purchased at a storefront, or claiming that years have passed into this war. Could you provide examples of this?






*So that's not the exact number. Sue me.

My concern about numbers deals more with troops fielded at a given time than overall population, although TPF is right that we can't take the rapid "1 day = 1 year or more" population growth that the NS page shows. Personal opinion is that - the day the RP starts or the day the first post goes up where actual troops are deployed and/or shooting starts is the day you check your nation pop and your annual defense budget, and use those for the rest of the RP (unless the RP does run for IC-years in case update it on occasion).

Let me use an example on troops fielded. Trivalvia currently has 9,000 infantry (give or take a couple hundred) in TWSP at this time. I have more troops on the way (another 20,000 being shipped out, and of course, another 500,000 soldiers in recruiting/training) but for the current battle, those troops may as well not exist - they're not on the field.

So, if and when my 9,000 troops hit the battlefield, losses taken from enemy fire will count; I get hit with enough firepower to destroy all those 9,000 - either at once or by the time the battle is over, then that's it; Trivalvia's troop investment in TWSP is spent and I can't take part in any more battles until fresh troops arrive.

Same with larger numbers. TPF deployed 700,000 troops, and was on the recieving end of an artillery barrage. "Taking some damage" would have to translate into real numbers at some point - did he lose a hundred soldiers, ten, a thousand? Small compared to the amount he sent in, but losses do add up, and sooner or later, he may have to call in reinforcements; it helps - for all concerned - for this figure to be known.

I doubt we'll need to know every shell or bullet or missile fired, but I hope this gives some clue on what kind of accuracy I'm looking for.

And - if at any time I screw up, I'd hope people will point it out to me as well.

Since I am in no direct threat area I'm sending quite a bit, my troops are moving through the Tigerlanian State of Spectare and Blobington (I have obtained OOC permission from both) Around 500,000 infantry with tanks, artillery, troop transports, and all that jazz will be arriving in a steady stream via aircraft and I have naval units moving toward TWSP coast that I declared a long time ago that will provide Air Superiority aircraft, Tactical Light Bombers, and some Close Air Support.

Well, Sirusia, that's really major breaches. So far there farily minor, people skipping ahead a day or a week. That will start to matter when we get into some battles.

Also, my divisions are around a fraction of my total forces, althouge it does signify a little less than half my armored divisions.

I think I understand, TPF... you're concerned about, say, troops leave their home country in one post and in the very next post they're at the front taking part in the same battle that started before the troops left, yes?

Perhaps, to help fix a timeframe, we might want to put in a date and time when the events take place? And to help with that, maybe we should agree on the exact day and hour that the current battle is undergoing, and move forward from there?

A time frame would be nice because fluid time can get tricky without one. Everyone has there own interpretation of what exactly constitutes a day, hour, etc. in fluid time. Without a time frame, it is also hard to gauge when everything is happening. For example, I posted that my troops were on their way on November 2nd IRL, it's now the 9th. The RP hasn't however progressed at the same pace, but for all I know this particular battle that's forming now is happening right after I posted or a week after my post because after all it does take time to get troops in the amount we're talking up an moving and coordinated. Whether they are on the front or not, it still takes time to formulate an intelligent attack using that many troops in tandem.

As I havn't posted an arrival date, my soldiers will arrive somewhere a safe distance behind the lines of combat and depending on how it goes set up a defensive redoubt or move in to support allied forces.

Well, Beta Auriquae, that gives us one possible point of reference. My interpretation has been that one-two days has passed since the start of the RP (i.e. when TPF declared it was annexing Nova Britain to the current moment).

If TPF could give us a better idea on the timeframe between, say, Annexation and his attempt to bomb TWSP's navy into oblivion, and from there to the ground invasion, we can sync our watches.

I've been operating on about a month or two from the announcement of annexation based on how long it'd take to have advanced ample forces plus everything else thats happened.

I will say this however, I ignore completly most of the NSecon stats it cooks up for me as I have my own economic policies that I can't really shape through issues.

oh and Nice one BTW TWSP I was wondering who realised my new digs in the region :P

Time frames are overrated and only needed by the uncreative.

Reason is good enough, and flexibility is good. If someone posts troops going one place and then appearing somewhere else at the next, if they're posted right away, then that's bad, but if someone leaves a few days to post, then it's fine.

Everything is relative, and because this is text-RP and not a live-action thing like, say, WoW, then you have to have a bit of fluid time, because, surprise, some people have a real life to tend to. ;)

Indeed, I'm using as little Fluid Time as possible at the moment, simply because doing a fair bit of buildup to my presence in the area is IMO needed to avoid anybody complaining about me suddenly having a fully fortified island, a bit of time should naturally be given for somebody to react of course before attacking, not much was given so far but it was given, but that gripe seems to have been sorted for the moment.

oh and call Nova Ireland Vrunzivun Zokirlenaixez now I've rechristened it to something more toungue twisting and more properly Novan :p

I have to beg to differ, Derscon.

To clarify, I'm not declaring that we should attempt a "real time" approach here. One day in real life will not equal one day in NS.

However, we do need internal consistency, in terms of times, distances, troops deployed, and troops lost. To say that insisting on such consistency is "uncreative" is leaving us open for a lot of problems in future; problems that can keep the RP from running smoothly.

What I am looking for here is a point of reference we can use. Say - and I am using this as an example - we decide the invasion of TWSP began on October 26, 2007, at 6 AM local time. If we know that: TWSP and TPF forces are locked in battle at that time, but Trivalvian, Naashan, and SaintB forces are still away from the front, then Trivalvian, Naashan, and SaintB forces won't be participating in the initial invasion. Rather, if the battle is short and TWSP has to fall back, then they will meet Trivalvian, Naashan, and SaintB forces advancing to the front. Where and when this meeting takes place will likely determine where and when the next battle occurs.

If the battle is long and TWSP successfully holds TPF back for hours or even a day or two, then Trivalvian, Naashan, and SaintB forces might be able to arrive and reinforce TWSP positions.

However if we say that, Trivalvian, Naashan, and SaintB forces - some of which were just leaving their home bases at the time TPF launched their invasion were actually at the battle site, then TPF would accuse us of Godmoding - and he would be right.

Having a common internal timeframe will help us to know when what forces will arrive where, and help us to move the RP along without having to pause to resolve constant "you can't do that"-"yes I can" arguments. We can still take a fair bit of time in real life between posts, although it is common courtesy that, if you know you're not going to be around for a week or longer, to post that you'll be away for said time. That way, we don't run into people getting impatient and wondering when or if Nation X is going to make his move.

Well, Beta Auriquae, that gives us one possible point of reference. My interpretation has been that one-two days has passed since the start of the RP (i.e. when TPF declared it was annexing Nova Britain to the current moment).


Cant be, you cant move 700,000 men plus vehicles and supplies in a day or two.

Fair point, TWSP (and further proof that we could really use some synchronization... I may have to do some retconning of my own force movements depending on the final output).

EDIT: TWSP I'm still having trouble accessing your nation's map in your .sig. I keep getting a 403-Forbidden error.

EDIT: TWSP I'm still having trouble accessing your nation's map in your .sig. I keep getting a 403-Forbidden error.

That's because the link's dead.

Here's a working one: LOLMAP (http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x204/Sgt-Alex/TWSPMap1.png)

@ TPF: Ah. Well now I see what you're saying, but that normally goes on in RPs. You can't perfectly simulate events, people are just doing the best they can, even if some are getting a little too eager to get some fighting going

@ TWSP: Why's your capital in the ocean to the northwest of your nation?

[/snarky]

@ TWSP: Why's your capital in the ocean to the northwest of your nation?

[/snarky]

Hah hah =p

By the way, nice signature :D

I think I understand, TPF... you're concerned about, say, troops leave their home country in one post and in the very next post they're at the front taking part in the same battle that started before the troops left, yes?

Perhaps, to help fix a timeframe, we might want to put in a date and time when the events take place? And to help with that, maybe we should agree on the exact day and hour that the current battle is undergoing, and move forward from there?

Thats exactly what I am conercened about. Its ruined some good Roleplays before, and I would hate to see this one ruined because of it.

See, I was actually only two days into the war before I left to Portland, but then I saw other posts and guessed that you guys had moved a week ahead. Thus I skipped to what I would be doing a week from the start- an assault. So right now, at least for my troops, its something like Day Seven, 8:00am.

However, we do need internal consistency, in terms of times, distances, troops deployed, and troops lost. To say that insisting on such consistency is "uncreative" is leaving us open for a lot of problems in future; problems that can keep the RP from running smoothly.

Well, consistency is fine, sure, but it has to be flexible. For instance, if, say, someone goes on a one week (IRL) bout of inactivity, they would be able to catch up, etc. I mean, take, for instance, the arrival of my aid ships. I posted them right after I posted that they were being sent because I didn't post for a few days, and things continued on without my posting. I mean, saying that we need a time-frame laid out as you say is really nothing more than some subconscious desire for red-tape and authority -- posting one after another in quick succession so the troops get from one nation to the next and the capital is a dick move, and generally regarded as a Bad Thing. It's common sense, there's no need to "regulate" it.

What I am looking for here is a point of reference we can use. Say - and I am using this as an example - we decide the invasion of TWSP began on October 26, 2007, at 6 AM local time. If we know that: TWSP and TPF forces are locked in battle at that time, but Trivalvian, Naashan, and SaintB forces are still away from the front, then Trivalvian, Naashan, and SaintB forces won't be participating in the initial invasion. Rather, if the battle is short and TWSP has to fall back, then they will meet Trivalvian, Naashan, and SaintB forces advancing to the front. Where and when this meeting takes place will likely determine where and when the next battle occurs.

Needless red-tape: working this stuff out is what the OOC thread is for, and for what the writing process is for. Adding an RP'd time-line does nothing but complicate things MORE.

I'm hesitant to go for any timelines because almost all of the off-site RP boards has them, and they RUIN the RP completely.

However if we say that, Trivalvian, Naashan, and SaintB forces - some of which were just leaving their home bases at the time TPF launched their invasion were actually at the battle site, then TPF would accuse us of Godmoding - and he would be right.

I'm sorry, you need a defined time-line for that?

Besides, a role-player should be a little flexible. I often accept godmodes against me because sometimes it makes things interesting, and a better story. Granted, "LOL ENERGIE SHEEELDZZZ" obviously doesn't, but we're all reasonable people here. I think. ;)

Thats exactly what I am conercened about. Its ruined some good Roleplays before, and I would hate to see this one ruined because of it.

See, I was actually only two days into the war before I left to Portland, but then I saw other posts and guessed that you guys had moved a week ahead. Thus I skipped to what I would be doing a week from the start- an assault. So right now, at least for my troops, its something like Day Seven, 8:00am.

That's the point of reference I'm looking for. Thanks, TPF!

Derscon: While I understand your concern about "too rigid a structure", the fact that we've had such issues like the above confusion over how much time has passed is *exactly* why we need a timeframe.

TPF thought that seven days had passed (and since he's the guy that started this, I'd say his estimate has precedence here). Novacom thought a month had passed. I thought two days had passed. All because nobody defined a day or how much time passed from their last post! I can't speak for anyone else, but my own inexperience with NS war - combined with the information vacuum over the passage of time - put me dangerously close to godmoding. I'd had the presence of mind not to send my forces into the current battle, at least, so I think I'm still on safe ground.

Thankfully, we now have a point of reference, and I can adjust things to suit. Others can do the same.

TWSP, thanks for the updated link :)

So what's going on now? So far I've grasped that TPF has called a scease-fire and TWSP and Trivalvia have recieved the message, but side from that I'm rather lost.

A couple things: TPF who are you referring to by "knoots?" Is it Drescon, Wanderjar, etc...?

Is there a reason given yet for the call for a cease-fire or is that still unknown?

And are all the NEA nations recieving the message, or only those involved directly?

I probably should be paying closer attention, and I will, once this week is over. Thanks guys.

Hey, I was going to ask if this was closed, but now it seems that a cease fire is comin' up, which would effectively end this conflict.

Is my assessment accurate?
If not, or if so, is this closed?

Hey, I was going to ask if this was closed, but now it seems that a cease fire is comin' up, which would effectively end this conflict.

Is my assessment accurate?
If not, or if so, is this closed?

It's semi-closed.

But you are in Nova Europa, well, at least you have colony there, Errikan Nordenland, so yeah, you should get involved.

Seeing as how since you were, well, absent, I had to defend the Denmark Straits as if was owned by me.

It's semi-closed.

But you are in Nova Europa, well, at least you have colony there, Errikan Nordenland, so yeah, you should get involved.

Seeing as how since you were, well, absent, I had to defend the Denmark Straits as if was owned by me.

Oh, thank you for that.

My prolonged absence was the result of a rather intrusive bout of RL. How annoying. As I am now back, though RL will continue to limit my actions quite a bit, I can resume my prior sovereignty.

Oh, thank you for that.

My prolonged absence was the result of a rather intrusive bout of RL. How annoying. As I am now back, though RL will continue to limit my actions quite a bit, I can resume my prior sovereignty.

No problem, though me blockading foreign ships from using the Denmark straits could be quite a sovereignity issue.

No problem, though me blockading foreign ships from using the Denmark straits could be quite a sovereignty issue.

Nah, so long as we resume business as usual now it should be no problem. It would only be if the situation were to continue that it would be a problem. ;)

Nah, so long as we resume business as usual now it should be no problem. It would only be if the situation were to continue that it would be a problem. ;)

If you ask me stop, I will, I'm just keeping it until the war ends.

If you ask me stop, I will, I'm just keeping it until the war ends.

I would prefer you did not continue.

I would prefer you did not continue.

Then we shall not, but we reserve the right to sink any hostile ship trying to go through ;)

Here I am preparing to come to TPF's aid, like him and I discussed in private thus far, and you guys are going to a cease fire.

Oh well, we shal see.

Come to his aid?

And why would that be?

He bribed me.

Timewarp wins.

Here I am preparing to come to TPF's aid, like him and I discussed in private thus far, and you guys are going to a cease fire.

Oh well, we shal see.

Come to his aid?

And why would that be?

SaintB, I should point out that as for the England part of Nova Britannica I have no Presence, my presence is centered on a constructed waystation at the edge of the region and on the Ireland part, to clarify, the impression I'm getting from your post is you've landed where London would be roughly?

SaintB, I should point out that as for the England part of Nova Britannica I have no Presence, my presence is centered on a constructed waystation at the edge of the region and on the Ireland part, to clarify, the impression I'm getting from your post is you've landed where London would be roughly?

Dude, you are RP'ing as if a month or so had passed since you landed, there's n way we would have let you go that long unmolested.

After all, only a week or two passed since the war started.

SaintB, I should point out that as for the England part of Nova Britannica I have no Presence, my presence is centered on a constructed waystation at the edge of the region and on the Ireland part, to clarify, the impression I'm getting from your post is you've landed where London would be roughly?

I know you have no presence there Nova, but I shipped out to prevent any further movements is all man. ICly I have no inkling of your intentions in the region and I'm acting for the safety of my embattled allies. I won't attack you; thats not my purpose. Besides, it stands to reason that Doomingsland might try to set troops there to aid TPF if fighting starts again. MY MSn is public if you want to talk to me :)

Allow me to clarify the timeline of my posts then TWSP, I'll move the setting up of this facility and it's attendant defences and reinforcements 2 weeks back during the missile crisis, but the reinforcements, aka my last post will have arrived just as things started this time, I left it deliberatley ambiguous as I myself was slightly confused over the timing of everything.

I'll also point out my "allegiance" is unknown to everyone ICly bar myself, and I do somehow doubt that with war brewing with TPF and all the political mayhem that was going on that you'd risk even more trouble by attacking somebody your not at war with, after all I hardly saw any of you swooping on Allanea who you would ICly know is allied with Doom when he set up shop on Cyprus.

Thank god for Fluid Time.

I'm not launching any offensive action against Novacom. I am merely securing the flank.

Where is TPF? These unannounced delays are starting to tax my patience...

Where is TPF? These unannounced delays are starting to tax my patience...

Not sure. He and Wandy have been oddly absent...

Uhh, my hard drive died, I got a new one. But when I checked in during that time at school and on my mom's computer, there were no new posts, so I don't know why you're blaming me for any delays.

Sorry about your hard drive - I had a similar experience recently, so I can understand your delay now.

However, it would only have taken a moment from a school computer to post in this thread a message stating your drive was down and how long you figured you'd be offline. A simple courtesy, nothing more.

That said, welcome back.

If The Federal Union never really RPed in NE and he moved out of the region 41 days ago... How does he have the right to sell a plot of Nova Europa land?

The most I ever recall him doing was asking for land, moving in, then just participating in FT RPs. If I'm wrong, please correct me, but I don't think he should suddenly be able to say he sold the land if he's been gone for over a month (41 days, to me exact) and he never RPed being in that spot.

I support Siriusa, he left, ergo, the territory is no longer his.

Heck, we just keep it there until someone else comes and claims it (when we allow that person to do so, obviously).

Ugh... and the legality issue of keeping and handing over land arises.

To my knowledge - feel free to correct me - TFU never gave any formal "I'm leaving, do what you want with my claim" message to anyone. For all we know, then, he claimed the area, scouted it, but never really did anything with it... he could even had forgotten he had it (a kind of "lost in the bureaucracy" situation).

If TFU did not officially relinquish his claim, then I'd say he still has it, and he has the right to do with it as he wishes. To say: "he left the region, so his claim is gone and he has no rights" is a dangerous policy to adopt, both ICly and OOCly. Let's Not Go There.

(Or, imagine if you vanish from the game for a while... then come back and try to pick up where you left off. Wouldn't you be pissed to learn your region-mates have erased your claim?)

TFU's claim and sale actually clears up a lot of IC legal problems both sides have. We already have two precedents on the books for nations having the right to do whatever they want with their land up to and including selling it to other nations. To wit: Naasha's sale of an island to Vonatas, and Allanea's acquiring of Nova Cyprus from Maldorians. So, TFU selling the land to Auman settles the legal issue of the ownership of Nova Britain. It's Auman's now, and anyone setting up forces on those islands right now - to wit, SaintB, Novacom, and Doomingsland - are now trespassing.

From the NEA's standpoint, that's one friendly and two hostile nations. The friendly we can probably ask to withdraw forces (and he's already indicated he doesn't want to stay). The hostiles will need to be removed, and the NEA is freed from having a hostile nation on one front. TPF becomes the only loser in this situation, but he's left with pretty much what he had before this started, so it's not much of a loss.

HOWEVER...

This whole RP has illuminated a glaring issue with NEA policy regarding "unclaimed" territory within Nova Europe. As Auman pointed out in the IC thread, there is such a thing as "settlers rights", and if TFU's claim wasn't there to begin with, the NEA would be in deep trouble, legally, for obstructing TPF.

Yet, both ICly and OOCly, the NEA has had a policy on who gets into the region and who gets a claim. We still have two "unclaimed" spots within Nova Europe. The question then becomes, do we have the right to enforce such restrictions on unclaimed areas.

The NEA has two possible courses of action. We can declare the unclaimed areas as truly unclaimed, and thus we have no right to raise a fuss over who takes those areas. OR... The NEA can declare those areas as under NEA jurisdiction. Essentially territories held in trust and guarded by the NEA until they can be handed over to people wishing to settle there. If we go the latter route, we'd better be prepared to back up that claim by "occupying" the land in question... I'd recommend small coastal patrol outposts and geological survey stations, nothing fancy, since nobody's supposed to be living there right now.

This is a question, and a policy decision, the NEA needs to make NOW, and we'd better be prepared to stick with it in future. Because the present policy has become unworkable. (Sorry, TWSP, but it's better we decide this, rather than have TPF try to do the same thing to Iceland or the remaining scandinavian nation, and go through this whole song and dance again).

The NEA has two possible courses of action. We can declare the unclaimed areas as truly unclaimed, and thus we have no right to raise a fuss over who takes those areas. OR... The NEA can declare those areas as under NEA jurisdiction. Essentially territories held in trust and guarded by the NEA until they can be handed over to people wishing to settle there. If we go the latter route, we'd better be prepared to back up that claim by "occupying" the land in question... I'd recommend small coastal patrol outposts and geological survey stations, nothing fancy, since nobody's supposed to be living there right now.

This is a question, and a policy decision, the NEA needs to make NOW, and we'd better be prepared to stick with it in future. Because the present policy has become unworkable. (Sorry, TWSP, but it's better we decide this, rather than have TPF try to do the same thing to Iceland or the remaining scandinavian nation, and go through this whole song and dance again).

As a founding member of the NEA and Nova Europa, I support this decision, namely, keeping unclaimed territories under NEA jurisdiction.

So, I vote "Aye".

I'm thinking of putting a colony in Nova Europa, if only to give myself some people to start interacting with, and I'm somewhat curious as to how you guys go about land claims as such. Even small ones (I'm eyeing Iceland, or Ireland but Iceland is probably the only one not claimed).

Also, you guys need to make sure your map is updated as such. As TFU/Auman is not on your regional map.

I'm thinking of putting a colony in Nova Europa, if only to give myself some people to start interacting with, and I'm somewhat curious as to how you guys go about land claims as such. Even small ones (I'm eyeing Iceland, or Ireland but Iceland is probably the only one not claimed).

Also, you guys need to make sure your map is updated as such. As TFU/Auman is not on your regional map.

Ireland is not claimed, it's unlawfully occupied but Doomingsland.

And we dont allow colonies in Nova Europa only homelands.

Ireland is not claimed, it's unlawfully occupied but Doomingsland.

And we dont allow colonies in Nova Europa only homelands.

And how does that bode with things such as Allenea owning Cyprus? As Allenea is not in NEA, but rather Haven.

And how does that bode with things such as Allenea owning Cyprus? As Allenea is not in NEA, but rather Haven.

Don't forget my Greek islands, three in all. Of course, both of those were acquired IC'ly and are used. Allanea's was one a war, I believe, and mine was an IC transaction.

And how does that bode with things such as Allenea owning Cyprus? As Allenea is not in NEA, but rather Haven.

Those islands were sold by their owners, though I disagree with it, and I'm in no place to do anything about their policies (though I wish I could).

well, doom persuaded me to send him some assistance, so here I am. Assuming you are okay with me being here I will post the order of battle of my task group.

In response to what Trivalvia said, I think a lot of things also need to be cleared up OOCly. For example, when we had our silent agreement to no colonization, I believed that it was an OOC agreement as well as an IC agreement. I don't see why we wouldn't have OOC rules about colonization in NE, I just always assumed that's how it was.

I mean, there are a LOT of regions with much stricter rules, and it seems that to ask this of others is really not as large of a burden as some might make it seem. After all, it apears apparent (to me, at least) that Nova Europa is a region that is largely meant to be a peaceful place for people to have their homelands. But when it comes to this, people disregard the simple guidelines, both OOCly and ICly. It seems by and large that a rather impressive number of outsiders (and a few trigger-happy insiders - on both sides) are doing this, and in doing so, turning Nova Europa from a peaceful region, like it was meant to be, to just a big cesspool of a mess. This really is getting quite annoying, that a few people can't follow a few basic understandings, which is, in turn, making this a huge mess.


In conclusion, I'm not sure if the above makes sense (I wrote this laaaaaaate at night) and thus I might have to edit or make a new post. Now I might just be cranky or grumpy, but I have to say, insofar, this is only getting more and more frustrating and I'm growing increasingly in favor of just retconning this mess and re-starting with the Sussex Conference where we would set better ground rules - both ICly and OOCly.

EDIT: Trivalvia, TFU may not have officially relinquished his claim, but he never officially accepted ownership of it ICly. Therefore, I believe that because he never existed in MT/PMT NE, then he would not be able to sell the plot of land to a nation in the MT/PMT timeline.

I agree with Siriusa here, but I'll wait to see what others have to say about this.

I agree with Siriusa here, but I'll wait to see what others have to say about this.

Heh, what part?

*Next morning*

Regarding what I posted last night, I think I was a bit cranky. But I still am frustrated by this situation, because we still need solid IC and OOC rules for our region, and they need to be made clear. That's something we've always been a little shaky on, because we always tried to be open, friendly, and inviting. But then something like this happens, and well... you can see the result. And while we could probably just role-play it out, I don't really like the idea of having Nova Europa smacked around because of a stupid little misunderstanding. After all, to me it seems ridiculous that people would come to Nova Europa for war, when they could just as well go somewhere else.

So, those are my two (or more) cents. And I might still have more to add later.

Hi Questers. Might I ask, for the benefit of some of our more nervous members, how much involvement you're putting in here? (I think some people are afraid of a nukefest or a Big Foreign Flag flying over their country...)

TWSP, on further reflection we might want to bring in the EP into policing the "unsettled areas". Several reasons for this but I'll touch on the high points:

Generally speaking, the "unclaimed" areas would be like Antartica in terms of politics - i.e. nobody can stick their flag there and use it as they will, but there are zones and bases there to help maintain a balance of power.

Plus, giving the EP a piece of the "unclaimed" pie will show that the NEA is interested in coexistance and limited cooperation. They're a defensive alliance, we're a defensive alliance, there's no real reason why we can't get along. Let them in a little, and we might avoid a messy war later.

Siriusa, I understand what you're saying, but... before TFU left the NS region, we've been treating his claim as legitimate; putting it on the regional map and all. I'd say we have to honour that claim and the subsequent sale. Otherwise, we open up a can of worms, namely gaining the power to abitrarily chuck people out of the region OOCly. That is not only bad politics, it's bad RPing.

Now we've been fairly lucky, as far as this region goes. We may not have attracted much in the way of peaceful or pacifist nations, but we've attracted good RPers. And good RPers mean the difference between a well-played war and diplomacy RP and a "OMG WTF STFU BBQ NOOK U ALL !!1!" mess. I personally believe we can still see this RP through without the continent being glassed or a whole ugly retcon.

EDIT: Okay, I just saw that people posted while I was posting. Geez, you guys are fast!...

I'm going to second a clearer IC and OOC rules definition. I doubt we'll need a "Third Sussex Conference" for it - we can hash out the rules OOCly then insert a "conference" into our collective histories to make it IC (generally after this crisis is resolved and before the next one...). Probably, since some of these territory issues will need to be spelled out in whatever peace treaty gets signed, that will be a good place to introduce joint NEA-EP policing of unclaimed Nova Europan territory.

Siriusa, I understand what you're saying, but... before TFU left the NS region, we've been treating his claim as legitimate; putting it on the regional map and all. I'd say we have to honour that claim and the subsequent sale. Otherwise, we open up a can of worms, namely gaining the power to abitrarily chuck people out of the region OOCly. That is not only bad politics, it's bad RPing.

Very true, we did do that. But then what happens later when someone from the outside would like to settle in Great Britain? After all, TFU doesn't exist there anymore, but if we keep his claim there, we could have a big, gaping hole there for god knows how long. In cases like this, it would be best if we talked to the (previous) owner of the land claim, but in this case he had already decided he still owned it and just gave it away, without letting us know first. To me, that is bad politics.

Good point, and that will have to be something we'll have to hash out in more detail and make sure everyone understands.

Probably the best way we can ICly cover the issue of TFU's claim, disappearance, then resurfacing and sale of the land would be as follows - TFU, feel free to chime in here on details: TFU's claim here is as part of a larger empire. Think Northwest Territories in Canada - it's part of a larger nation, but very little is done with it. He does not take much part in NE politics as very little has happened here anyway.

In turn, NE nations might well forget that TFU is there. Certainly Trivalvia's foreign ministry, recovering as it is from its own isolation, probably lost TFU's dossier in the bureacracy - similar "getting buried in the paperwork" reasons can work for most other nations. So it's not on anybody's mind when TPF pulls the landgrab.

Now all that's needed is a check through each nation's records, an "Oh yeah, TFU's claim was still valid" realization, and subsequent recognition of Auman now being the legal ruler of Nova Britain. The NEA can thus declare TPF's claim as invalid and regain some of the moral high ground lost in this mess.

It would certainly make it a lot better of TFU came in here and gave his input, but from what it seems, he doesn't frequent the forums too much.

And another thing: If we still maintained that TFU controlled Great Britain, why were we always talking about it being unoccupied and how would TPF have been able to claim the unoccupied territory? We might just want to rewind and work out all the little problems here. A large majority of the actions taken here were made under the assumption that Great Britain was empty. So what do we do now that we learn that TFU was there the whole time?

Here are some posts to back up my claim that everyone just treated it as unclaimed.

Uno (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13188225&postcount=19)
Two (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13189019&postcount=23)
Trois (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13196868&postcount=30) (in response to this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13196845&postcount=29), then followed by this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13197088&postcount=31)
4 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13208081&postcount=68)

So as far as I can tell, up to this point, everyone considered TFU gone.

EDIT: And that's just in this thread. I'm sure you could find much, much more in the IC thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=541363).

Anotha EDIT:

Here's an interesting thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=542880) in which TFU talks about his nation being in a totally different place than Great Britain. Not in Nova Europa at all.

And a quick scan though his posting history reveals that almost all of his RPs are FT (not that this was unknown, but I thought I might point out the very small amount of MT/PMT RPing he does)

Siriusa, I understand what you're saying, but... before TFU left the NS region, we've been treating his claim as legitimate; putting it on the regional map and all. I'd say we have to honour that claim and the subsequent sale. Otherwise, we open up a can of worms, namely gaining the power to abitrarily chuck people out of the region OOCly. That is not only bad politics, it's bad RPing.


No, TFU did officially leave, he didnt publicly announce for reasons that I was asked not to mention here, in public, by him, since he believed they would only lead to more OOC-related problems in Nova Europa.

As for the map, the latest version both in Nova Europa and in my computer, clearly shows no TFU.


Probably the best way we can ICly cover the issue of TFU's claim, disappearance, then resurfacing and sale of the land would be as follows - TFU, feel free to chime in here on details: TFU's claim here is as part of a larger empire. Think Northwest Territories in Canada - it's part of a larger nation, but very little is done with it. He does not take much part in NE politics as very little has happened here anyway.

That doesnt work because, as we all know, Nova Europa is homelands-only.

Ok let me "chime" in. The reason I left first and for-most is because tigerlan went off on me on msn, telling me Id have no or very little oil I'm not significant, he and some one else (forgot who) owned the north sea, Plus I did not see at that time any IC threads pertaining to NE, it was an ooc bitch fest, and I refused to sit there and being sulted and get in to a cluster fuck icly and oocly over this.

So far as I can see the only one being fair to me right now is Auman, Trivalvia, and Derscon. Basicly tigerlan was trying to be "Bourgeoisie" (or higher class than me) over me. So yeah I got pissed and said fuck off because for the record thats not how to behave, I left gracefully , and I did not raise a shit storm. Thinking that I still owned the land because it was never requested back or relinquished.

Hi Questers. Might I ask, for the benefit of some of our more nervous members, how much involvement you're putting in here? (I think some people are afraid of a nukefest or a Big Foreign Flag flying over their country...)

I'm going to help Doom secure whatever he's securing, but I'm not "taking a war" to any of the NE nations as such, eg I don't plan to try land on you and annex or anything like that (which would be much too pointless.) I don't hold anything against any of the NE nations OOCly, so I'm just in this OOCly for practice and ICly for land(GB)/influence/foreign policy.

Ok let me "chime" in. The reason I left first and for-most is because tigerlan went off on me on msn, telling me Id have no or very little oil I'm not significant, he and some one else (forgot who) owned the north sea, Plus I did not see at that time any IC threads pertaining to NE, it was an ooc bitch fest, and I refused to sit there and being sulted and get in to a cluster fuck icly and oocly over this.

So far as I can see the only one being fair to me right now is Auman, Trivalvia, and Derscon. Basicly tigerlan was trying to be "Bourgeoisie" (or higher class than me) over me. So yeah I got pissed and said fuck off because for the record thats not how to behave, I left gracefully , and I did not raise a shit storm. Thinking that I still owned the land because it was never requested back or relinquished.

Tigerlan's actions aside, you joined on the premise that Nova Britain was your homeland, all joining nations do unless the land was expressly sold to them. Siriusa has pointed out that you no longer use Nova Britain as your homeland, which surely rendered your claim void.

I'm going to help Doom secure whatever he's securing, but I'm not "taking a war" to any of the NE nations as such, eg I don't plan to try land on you and annex or anything like that (which would be much too pointless.) I don't hold anything against any of the NE nations OOCly, so I'm just in this OOCly for practice and ICly for land(GB)/influence/foreign policy.

Fair enough, feel free to give my fleets a pasting if and when war erupts, I need an excuse to expand them and I'd be interested to see how they perform in a larger battle.

EDIT: Sorry guys, must get rid of this habit of double posting that I've managed to pick up.

Tigerlan's actions aside, you joined on the premise that Nova Britain was your homeland, all joining nations do unless the land was expressly sold to them. Siriusa has pointed out that you no longer use Nova Britain as your homeland, which surely rendered your claim void.

True but my fact book was posted a MONTH after the fact.

True but my fact book was posted a MONTH after the fact.

While Tigerlan's actions are... disappointing, the fact still remains that you left NE. However, as we all know, Wanderjar is not "in" Nova Europa in terms of the region boards, but he actively RPs as a nation in Nova Europa. I'd be more inclined to keep his claim around, though because he still roleplays out of Nova Europa, where as you, TFU, have not. But, given the unfortunate circumstances of being bullied out of Nova Europa, I think that you should have been able to keep the claim (if you intended to stay ICly, which it seems you did not).

While all this can be argued back and forth, to me it appears that the simplest solution is this: You entered Nova Europa, left due to unfortunate circumstances, and found a new homeland. I believe that, judging from this series of events, we could safely say that Great Britain was no longer inhabited.

Either way, we're going to have to rewind/retcon this RP back to an understandable time because right now it's just confusing.

I honestly don't see why we need to rewind, ICly we say we bought it, your nations are just as free to say its not legitimate and openly oppose it.

For the record, I am still intent on jumping in on TPF's side in this RP. I have no real intent to gain land, and ICly my nation doesn't really get along with any of the nations I'd be jumping in on the side of (Ohh RP fun there), no imperialistic ambitions. I'm just waiting to see if/when it hits the proverbial fan, to give me actual reason ICly to get involved.

So it seems to me that you guys need to figure two things out. First, will TFU's claim still be legit, and does that mean either he or Auman currently occupy GB. Personally, even though I fully understand his reasons for leaving, if it wasn't publicly declared (The sale that is) then I don't see it as legit, and since he left and doesn't RP from NE then I would simply have dissolved his claims long ago. But either way this is an issue that you guys gotta sort out.

Second, and this is just as important but depends entirely on the first one, will this RP be retconned if TFU/Auman still owns the lands? Again, a tricky one.

Good luck with them, I'll be watching, waiting for the RP to actually go on.

Note: I indeed would have liked to stay but for those reasons I did not.

*sigh* There are days, and this is one of them, that I wonder why I returned to NS...

This issue is not all that hard to understand, people. Let me lay it out for you:

IF TFU'S CLAIM IS VALID:

Then the collective NEA position of condemning TPF's claim to Nova Britain is upheld. TPF has no legal right to claim Nova Britain and should relinquish it at once. Auman bought it, and now controls it - he has yet to occupy it, but that's his problem, not ours. Doomingsland is now trespassing and should leave lest he risk a war with Auman. The NEA may offer assistance to Auman (since we do have a local presence) but it is no longer our fight; we can send our troops home if we wish to. (I would recommend, that the NEA provide that assistance to Auman because we do need to show that we can carry our weight).

IF TFU'S CLAIM IS INVALID:

Then the land is unoccupied and TPF has the right to annex it. The collective NEA position is therefore invalid and should be dropped. The NEA will have to apologize to TPF and will likely have to pay recompense. Since the decision to declare unclaimed territories to be under NEA jurisdiction was made AFTER TPF's claim, we cannot retroactively apply it to Nova Britain. TPF gets the land, we get a black mark in the international community.

To be honest, TWSP, Naasha, Siriusa, you are trying to have it both ways, saying that the claim is invalid and that the land cannot be annexed. I am sorry, but such a position can only be bad for the NEA. This gives the NEA an international reputation of being a dog in the manger:, selfish and stubborn, and will make it easier, not harder, for nations like Questers to decide to fight against us. We lose the moral high ground, they gain it.

That should break it down enough for people to make a decision. It's not a hard one to make.

I for one have lost patience with the issue. Make up your minds as one, and accept the consequences as I have laid them out.

*Sighs...considers leaving NS again*

*sigh* There are days, and this is one of them, that I wonder why I returned to NS...

This issue is not all that hard to understand, people. Let me lay it out for you:

IF TFU'S CLAIM IS VALID:

Then the collective NEA position of condemning TPF's claim to Nova Britain is upheld. TPF has no legal right to claim Nova Britain and should relinquish it at once. Auman bought it, and now controls it - he has yet to occupy it, but that's his problem, not ours. Doomingsland is now trespassing and should leave lest he risk a war with Auman. The NEA may offer assistance to Auman (since we do have a local presence) but it is no longer our fight; we can send our troops home if we wish to. (I would recommend, that the NEA provide that assistance to Auman because we do need to show that we can carry our weight).

IF TFU'S CLAIM IS INVALID:

Then the land is unoccupied and TPF has the right to annex it. The collective NEA position is therefore invalid and should be dropped. The NEA will have to apologize to TPF and will likely have to pay recompense. Since the decision to declare unclaimed territories to be under NEA jurisdiction was made AFTER TPF's claim, we cannot retroactively apply it to Nova Britain. TPF gets the land, we get a black mark in the international community.

To be honest, TWSP, Naasha, Siriusa, you are trying to have it both ways, saying that the claim is invalid and that the land cannot be annexed. I am sorry, but such a position can only be bad for the NEA. This gives the NEA an international reputation of being a dog in the manger:, selfish and stubborn, and will make it easier, not harder, for nations like Questers to decide to fight against us. We lose the moral high ground, they gain it.

That should break it down enough for people to make a decision. It's not a hard one to make.

I for one have lost patience with the issue. Make up your minds as one, and accept the consequences as I have laid them out.

This is just confusing for me because I thought that these unspoken rules were actual rules. So, when TPF annexed Great Britain, it really threw the whole thing out of the normal NE nation's "comfort zone." My reasoning was, if we don't allow other nations to just take colonies, why are they allowed to colonize here if we simply let them stay here? What's to stop other nations from just saying, "Hmmm... plot #2 looks unoccupied, let's colonize it!" Then we're in this situation again. After all, we wouldn't be able to say no, because it IS unclaimed and they do have "settlers rights" for being the first to claim it. So really, we have as much right to tell other people as TPF "no colonies in Nova Europa."

EDIT: Triv, do you have AIM?

I believe you guys are reading too much into the situation. It doesn't hurt the NEA either way, its not like y'all are a huge power bloc that needs "face" and TWSP said anyway he would not let m have GB either way. So shall we finish the war and then you guys can sort it out later, instead of doing it now?

No, I do not. Instant Messaging services combined with the internet situation I have makes for a very poor way for people to get in touch with me.

*sigh* Send me a telegram; we can private message that way if you've got an hour to discuss this.

Well, TPF, the issue of legit and illegit claims is important because this will likely determine the moral character of both this war and the NEA. Who is in the right? Who is in the wrong?

And determining our moral character will also determine if and when another war is fought. Look what happened after Doomingsland ran the TWSP blockade and gave you those weapons. Right now, the impression I get is the NEA is not taken seriously. We've banded together, and we can throw our weight around, sure... but are we the knight on the NS international stage, the villain, or the clown?

If we show ourselves as a knight, someone willing to fight for the right reasons, then nations that might waver on fighting us or allying with us will decide in favour of alliance, or at least in not picking a fight with us. Nations that prefer to fight initially will probably still do so, but they'll have fewer allies jump in to help them. We can thus defend ourselves better.

Contraiwise, if we portray ourselves as the villain, then nations will fall over themselves to invade and "make things right."

And if we show ourselves to be the clown - i.e. talking loudly but never acting - then we leave ourselves open to several smaller wars as ambitious nations decide to take a piece of the Nova Europan pie for themselves... because, after all, it's not like we can mount a serious threat to their plans, right?

I'm trying to have the NEA cast in the role of knight. I believe the others in the NEA would like this too, but their actions, sadly may have the opposite effect. And if we bury our head in the sand or continually ask for retcons over issues like this, then we become a clown, or even the alliance nobody talks about. We become free of war, but only because we're irrelevant in the NS world - we aren't worth the trouble.

We can still have our war... but I prefer the NEA to be on the right side of it.

I see your point, Trivalvia, but I must stand with Siriusa here.

We have never allowed people to take colonies here, we have never allowed NEA countries to annex unoccupied plots, sadly, we never wrote this as a rule, but it was a "silent" rule that everyone followed... until now.

This is the problem, do we set this as a real rule, and thus retcon, or do we accept the right of NEA and foreign nations to occupy Nova Europa at their leisure?

I see your point, Trivalvia, but I must stand with Siriusa here.

We have never allowed people to take colonies here, we have never allowed NEA countries to annex unoccupied plots, sadly, we never wrote this as a rule, but it was a "silent" rule that everyone followed... until now.

This is the problem, do we set this as a real rule, and thus retcon, or do we accept the right of NEA and foreign nations to occupy Nova Europa at their leisure?

Now retconning might be taking it a little farther than I'd like. Ideally, if we could come to a nice, mutual understanding in the IC thread, I think that would do wonders for this conflict

That's bullshit. So if some Foriegn power wants to come in and occupy or take some land, they can't because of some ooc agreement? That practically makes your homelands invenuerable to any sort of war.

That's bullshit. So if some Foriegn power wants to come in and occupy or take some land, they can't because of some ooc agreement? That practically makes your homelands invenuerable to any sort of war.

While I can see how you're having a problem with this, don't forget that recently there was a war in the Mediterranian between Maldorians and some other guy (the name escapes me right now). It does not make us impervious to war. For example, when Doom transported whatever into your nation, we came very close to war. War is not just a way to grab land.

And we've had a big "no colonies" rule in the land claim thread for incoming nations. I can't really see how you're so surprised. After all, we've had this discussion before.

That's bullshit. So if some Foriegn power wants to come in and occupy or take some land, they can't because of some ooc agreement? That practically makes your homelands invenuerable to any sort of war.

If the land is unclaimed, and the OOC rule for NE is that it's homelands-only, then it makes sense, as long as there's a clause that states land currently owned may be bought/sold/captured by a foreign power and that power would not have to move their homeland in. This would be the most fair and most reasonable to all.

And TWSP, you're setting up a false premise -- those aren't the only two options. *points to the above portion of his post*

However, Trivalvia is correct that, for the current situation, those are the only two options you have.

That's not what I am arguing against- I am arguing against some sort of rule where it would make our homelands impervious to foreign wars because they weren't allowed into the region because of an OOC rule, which some of us seem to be hinting at.

That's not what I am arguing against- I am arguing against some sort of rule where it would make our homelands impervious to foreign wars because they weren't allowed into the region because of an OOC rule, which some of us seem to be hinting at.

That is not what I'm implying. What I do not fully support is the idea of someone who just wants a colony and chooses to take an open claim in Nova Europa - not as a homeland, but as a colony. I really have no OOC problem with war entering Nova Europa or war in peoples' homelands.

That is not what I'm implying. What I do not fully support is the idea of someone who just wants a colony and chooses to take an open claim in Nova Europa - not as a homeland, but as a colony.

And when I talked to TWSP about it awhile ago, this is the impression I got -- people can't just start claiming stuff. And yes, TPF, it is an OOC rule affecting IC, but you're going to have that no matter what, really. And in this case, it's not necessarily a bad one. It prevents Nova Europa from turning into what Haven did -- which is, effectively, what Africa was IRL.

I really have no OOC problem with war entering Nova Europa or war in peoples' homelands.

That's what I'm saying -- if a foreign power buys land or captures land from a nation that actually resides in Nova Europa, well, then that foreign power should be allowed OOCly to stay there, even if it's not their homeland. This makes the most sense, and is the most reasonable. IT keeps NE on the map and relevant (without turning them into a bubble that everyone ignores), and you still keep the No-colony rule.

That is not what I'm implying. What I do not fully support is the idea of someone who just wants a colony and chooses to take an open claim in Nova Europa - not as a homeland, but as a colony. I really have no OOC problem with war entering Nova Europa or war in peoples' homelands.

I think you summed up my position perfectly there. My personal objection to TPF annexing Nova Britain is twofold. The first and simplest explanation is that Wanderjar attempted to annex Nova Belarus and was told OOC'ly that he wasn't allowed to do it, thus setting a precedent that we should follow here.

My second objection is along the lines of that in order to fit as many roleplaying nation's homelands into the region and thus 'better' the region in terms of roleplay and activity, lands must be kept open for them to claim. IC sale or conquest of lands is acceptable because somebody else must have first occupied the land for it to be purchased or captured, which adds to the roleplaying experience of Nova Europa. On the other hand, the annex of unoccupied pieces of the continent by existing members is downright selfish in the OOC sense, as they are denying those lands to another nation who would like to use them as a homeland.

I'm not sure where I stand on outside nations annexing or claiming unoccupied territories of Nova Europa, settlers rights spring to mind in the IC sense but I know that OOC'ly I would be unhappy with nations controlling significant parts of the continent when these were not their homelands, as the land would almost be going to waste.

EDIT: I also agree with Derscon's post above mine, I really feel that allowing existing members to claim new parts of the continent without express permission from the majority is going to create real OOC problems.

While I can see how you're having a problem with this, don't forget that recently there was a war in the Mediterranian between Maldorians and some other guy (the name escapes me right now). It does not make us impervious to war. For example, when Doom transported whatever into your nation, we came very close to war. War is not just a way to grab land.

It was Waldenberg 2. ;) This whole thread is confusing me so I am trying to stay out of it. xD

EDIT: I also agree with Derscon's post above mine, I really feel that allowing existing members to claim new parts of the continent without express permission from the majority is going to create real OOC problems.

:D

Right. Or, perhaps, forbid it entirely. If you do that, though, then you shouldn't have cut out "plots" of land, necessarily, but have negotiated borders, perhaps, for IC reasons mostly -- I mean, just hypothetically, if I moved into Nova Europa, I have 8.9 billion people. Having ONLY Nova Britannia wouldn't really fit too well, even though I'll still have extra-NB holdings.

:D

Right. Or, perhaps, forbid it entirely. If you do that, though, then you shouldn't have cut out "plots" of land, necessarily, but have negotiated borders, perhaps, for IC reasons mostly -- I mean, just hypothetically, if I moved into Nova Europa, I have 8.9 billion people. Having ONLY Nova Britannia wouldn't really fit too well, even though I'll still have extra-NB holdings.

Well, we tend to scale the land to be enormously larger than Europe, population density is not really an issue I don't think.

Plus, I believe Tigerlan and Maldorians have already begun claiming parts of the Middle East, the map is being expanded to include Africa and Asia and the agreement was that each nation could stake out a new colony within the new lands if they wished, I think. Of course, the whole thing was put on hold when this flared up.

TPF, it appears fairly clear you're not wanted OOCly in NE, so its probably best if you step off.

I offered that- if they want me to, I'll leave, but I offered that sometime ago. Here's your chance again guys, do you want me to go or not?

TPF, it appears fairly clear you're not wanted OOCly in NE, so its probably best if you step off.

I offered that- if they want me to, I'll leave, but I offered that sometime ago. Here's your chance again guys, do you want me to go or not?

Well, for myself at least, it's not that you're not wanted in NE. It's that this specific argument is not wanted in NE. I really could care less that Doomingsland delivered nuclear weapons right onto your doorstep or the EP and NEA both in Nova Europa, but this colonization issue - and the confusion it's causing - I could do without.

It was Waldenberg 2. ;) This whole thread is confusing me so I am trying to stay out of it. xD

Good idea.

If you do that, though, then you shouldn't have cut out "plots" of land, necessarily, but have negotiated borders, perhaps, for IC reasons mostly -- I mean, just hypothetically, if I moved into Nova Europa, I have 8.9 billion people. Having ONLY Nova Britannia wouldn't really fit too well, even though I'll still have extra-NB holdings.

Now that'd just get waaaaaaay too complicated. And if you moved into Nova Europa, then you'd be able to fit all those people onto Nova Brittania. It's not like NS is completely accurate :D

I offered that- if they want me to, I'll leave, but I offered that sometime ago. Here's your chance again guys, do you want me to go or not?

I really hope it doesn't come to that.

I offered that- if they want me to, I'll leave, but I offered that sometime ago. Here's your chance again guys, do you want me to go or not?

Not really, TPF, no. However much trouble you might cause ICly :) you're still a good roleplayer and I for one would hate to lose you.

Judging from the recent posts, I think we're starting to move towards an understanding we can take to the IC thread and the conference in there. Let me lay it out and let's see if everyone agrees.

The consensus I'm getting, especially from TWSP, Siriusa, and Naasha, is that we have to enforce the "No Colonies" rule. We've allowed exceptions when claimed land can be sold/given to another (by treaty), and people here have said that they're not averse to territory changing hands in war. Derscon has suggested negotiated borders (good). So we all seem to be on the same page.

Where things are falling apart here is the issue about unclaimed land. Taken literally, the land in question (Areas that are CONFIRMED as unclaimed are: Nova Ireland - which BTW was not part of TFU's initial claim - a country in Scandinavia - Norway, I think - and Nova Iceland). TFU's claim is... being questioned, but I remain willing to treat it as valid. If others have an issue with the claim being valid (and honestly, it's devolving into a he-said/she-said situation), then maybe it could be said that the land was selected for a homeland, but on further reflection was rejected. In the Aumanii post where TFU makes the sale, Prince Will (IIRC) said something about it "raining too much" so that would fit in quite well.

Think of it like somebody buying a cool shirt, trying it on at home and deciding it's not for them after all, but waiting too long to return it to the store. He might not wear it, but it's still his until he can pawn it off at a yard sale or something :p

With that issue out of the way, the events in the RP can continue without needing retcons. We can then suggest a treaty between the NEA and the EP (which can be done now that Wanderjar has a representative - and a very high level one at that - at the conference) that would treat further unclaimed lands as "jointly claimed and protected" by the NEA and the EP. Again, look at Antartica as an example, where treaty designated "control zones" were set up, military bases with limits on firepower were set up, and a moratorium on development was put into place.

These new "Protected Areas" would then be open to colonization or homeland selection pending approval by a majority of NEA and EP representatives. I would like to suggest, that Wanderjar, being one of the senior RPers here who is ICly respected by both sides, be our "early warning system" on region-trashers or horribly bad RPers who attempt to go through this system.

Protected Areas can have military bases, but I would recommend limits to how many people can be stationed there and what equipment. e.g. we'd allow IFVs and recon vehicles, but not MBTs; corvettes and frigates but not superdreadnoughts; small squadrons of interceptors and SAR copters, but not missile silos.

When a Protected Area is handed over to someone approved to settle there, then those bases would be either dismantled or turned over to the arriving power.

Feel free to suggest changes, but I personally believe this is the best way out of the deadlock. If TPF and Doomingsland still want to fight it out with everybody, feel free, I'm sure we can take it :) But, once Auman and Derscon drop their "we own it now" bombshell at the conference, I can have Norris introduce the Protected Areas treaty idea to the conference and we can go from there.

So what do you say?

My opinion of this whole issue is this. Accepting the sale and my subsequent claim would be the fastest way to get this issue behind everyone. My intention with the territory is good, as well.

I intend to turn it into an "international free zone" where all the citizens of Nova Europa and the world can travel to, and do business in, this territory with out restriction.

I want it to be sort of an Island of the World. Companies can all bid to take advantage of the resources. People can buy houses and live there, etc. Auman will not administer to the land itself...think of it as a true Libertarian society, where a multi-national organization of member states provide the very basic infrastructure to a disarmed nation of sorts.

I will form an institution that provides a regional forum where all Nova European nations can discuss important issues in a peaceful manner. A place where international law can be signed by nations...for instance, laws regarding the distribution of unclaimed land.

No foreign or internal military will take advantage of Nova Britannia. Only a volunteer police force will be allowed. Etc.

It's a vague concept I came up with and I think it would be a good way to organize things ICly in the region...as well as encourage OOC cooperation with outside regions. If the organization was open to Haven nations, for example, that could get the two regions to participate in more diplomatic roleplays. Questers is involved in the troubles here. So is Greater Prussia, Icewind Dale, etc.

That's my plan for NB...to turn it into an MT Babylon 5.

Not really, TPF, no. However much trouble you might cause ICly :) you're still a good roleplayer and I for one would hate to lose you.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

It may seem like my nation is going for GB for imperial reasons, but let me explain. My nation needs that land. TPF has been mining coal and iron and other important resources for nearly 100 years at a mind-numbing scale. Basically, we found that we had a mere six months left. This, being the foundation of the economy, and being combined with a bored warrior culture, caused the war. A secondary reason was a war with the Soviets, but thats really secondary. And, I am not the only one to claim land. Tigerlan and Mal claimed the Middle East, while Tigerland openly talked about taking Scandinavia. Its part of the reason the EP was formed.

While I like your idea, Icly my nation just cant accept it. We need to get those resources from land somewhere, least it makes it look like the 30's in the U.S. were nothing.

Where things are falling apart here is the issue about unclaimed land. Taken literally, the land in question (Areas that are CONFIRMED as unclaimed are: Nova Ireland - which BTW was not part of TFU's initial claim - a country in Scandinavia - Norway, I think - and Nova Iceland). TFU's claim is... being questioned, but I remain willing to treat it as valid. If others have an issue with the claim being valid (and honestly, it's devolving into a he-said/she-said situation), then maybe it could be said that the land was selected for a homeland, but on further reflection was rejected. In the Aumanii post where TFU makes the sale, Prince Will (IIRC) said something about it "raining too much" so that would fit in quite well.


See, the problem there is that I operate under the idea that things like dont work, either it's your homeland OR not, and if it's not, you dont get to keep the land, it's given to someone else.

See, if it had been "rejected", then he wouldnt have been allowed to keep owning it, because it would have become a colony.

Not to mention that, when TFU joined, heck, when everyone joins, I am very clear about the fact that IT MUST BE YOUR HOMELAND and that NO COLONIES ARE ACCEPTED.

TFU, Maldorians, TPF, Tigerlan, everyone who is a second or third generation Nova Europan (counting from when I took over as "region leader", kind of) was told that and accepted it.

Snip

And I told you to get colonies in other regions, protectorates (like your Cazelian one) or the likes.

What happened to your ex-NPE homeland, does it not have resources?

Fair enough, TPF... although I do wish you'd made the nature and urgency of the need more clear in the IC thread. I can understand you not wanting to broadcast it ICly, but I didn't see anything in the SIC and internal parts of your posts that made this issue apparent.

But that's something we can work out. So long as people are clear and agree to this course of action OOCly (i.e. "I don't like it so I'm going to hold up the RP until it's trashed") I think we can proceed ICly.

Auman... that's a pretty big territory to devote to something you can fit into a complex the size of a university campus :)

EDIT: Good glory, TWSP, are you trying to derail things? The place for an OOC objection like this would have been when the RP started! Not now!

Look, let me spell it out again...

IF (TFU-claim == TRUE) THEN
TPF-claim = FALSE
NEA-opposition=TRUE
NEA MORAL POSITION=GOOD

IF (TFU-claim == FALSE) THEN
TPF-claim = TRUE
NEA-opposition=FALSE
NEA MORAL POSITION=EVIL

Is this simple enough for everyone? Do I have to draw a picture?!

Auman, since you told me to bring it to the OOC thread:

Navarrone had watched the entire debate intently before formulating his opinion. 'Speaking as an entirely neutral observer, I'd like to make a few comments if that's alright.' said Navarrone, waiting to get everyone's attention before speaking.

'Both sides need to shut their fucking mouths for awhile. Like the Tsar just said. Flapping your jaws back and forth is only going to get everyone hot under the collar.' Sheikh sipped his drink. His face pinched slightly as the bitter liquor burned his throat. 'Ambassador Keating, your initial demands are completely unreasonable. I do not believe Krugler's nation should reduce its armaments, nor do I believe it should renounce its claim on the unclaimed islands. Anyone who is remotely familiar with "Settler's rights" can tell you this. Just because you missed out on the opportunity doesn't mean you can cry like a baby and get your way. You were too damn slow. Live with it.'

Navarrone looked at Krugler, who more than likely had a shit-eating grin on his face by this point, and said 'And you, mind your god damn manners you little creep. I agree with your nation's position. But you're acting like a little fucking faggot and if I were the host, you'd be in lock up right now.'

Now addressing all those assembled, 'If TPF can provide proof that Wanderjar had provided permission for them to cross their territory then nothing illegal took place. Furthermore, if Wanderjar had provided signed consent to TPF then, I believe, legal action should be taken in civil court...and I'd be more than happy to allow this process to take place in my nation's legal system. Nova Britain was not the sovereign territory of any nation at the time of settlement and as such is a non-issue. As for space debris? Both sides were involved in action and both should shoulder the financial burden. As for TPF running a foreign blockade, it is not the place of the international community to tell anyone who they can and cannot trade with. If you couldn't physically stop TPF from doing business with them, which I believe to be an illegal action in itself, it's your fault.'

Sheikh finished his drink before turning to the Tsar, 'Pardon my language.'

And my answer, which you never acknowledged:

"Well, thanks for your kind comments, but I'd like to clarify a few points in your statement.

For starters, there are no such things as 'settler's right' in Nova Europa, it was regionally accepted that (before The PeoplesFreedom, among others joined the region and tried to break this rule) unoccupied territories would remain like that. Not to mention that someone was living there, The Fedral Union.

As for missing the opportunity, my dear sir, The World Soviet Party has no interest in taking Nova Britania for itself, nevermind the resources or land, we are merely interested in keeping it free and empty until an appropiate nation takes it as it's homeland.

Ask anyone in the NEA, you'll see that we are getting ready to intervene the Novacom forces settling down, oh, and the Doomani that Krugler and company so stupidly got into this conflict.

Now, having cleared that up, would you care to explain why my initial demands are unreasonable? We are not trying to get a Versailles here, we are just trying to ensure that The PeoplesFreedom will be more careful next time, instead of jumping into war."

That's the reason I am perplexed about your delegate talking as if we were fighting to occupy Nova Britannia.

Hate to throw in what must seem to everybody yet another Monkey Wrench into the works, but myself and Doom are mainly concentrated on Nova Ireland with a token presence in Scotland, so much of this clatter about we being tresspassing on what may end up being Auman's land are fairly invalid, forces are being transferred over in response to SaintB's worryingly close presence.

The Two choices outlined before do seem to be the only ones however I would point out that some sort of decision needs to be done, though I will point out a retcon is hardly needed, nor desirable by anybody, it's ironic how colonisation and OOC IC Mix seems to be a somewhat hot issue universally at the moment.

See, the thing is I thought everybody knew that (what I said)!

And I disagree with your second part of the coding, namely the one about us being evil if TFU's claim was = FALSE.

We'd be evil based on settler's rights, but TPF would be evil based on the silent and unofficial Nova Europan colonization policy.

EDIT: TIMEWARP!

EDIT: Good glory, TWSP, are you trying to derail things? The place for an OOC objection like this would have been when the RP started! Not now!

Look, let me spell it out again...

IF (TFU-claim == TRUE) THEN
TPF-claim = FALSE
NEA-opposition=TRUE
NEA MORAL POSITION=GOOD

IF (TFU-claim == FALSE) THEN
TPF-claim = TRUE
NEA-opposition=FALSE
NEA MORAL POSITION=EVIL

Is this simple enough for everyone? Do I have to draw a picture?!

See, the thing is I thought everybody knew that (what I said)!

And I disagree with your second part of the coding, namely the one about us being evil if TFU's claim was = FALSE.

See, the thing is I thought everybody knew that (what I said)!

And I disagree with your second part of the coding, namely the one about us being evil if TFU's claim was = FALSE.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l91/empyreanimperator/EMDYSI.jpg

Look, Triv is right, and it's been spelled out for the past 666 posts in this bloody thread. I don't know why you're so stubborn, if it's your pride or what. I came in planning on supporting you and crushing TPF, but I am having a remarkably quick change of heart, because everyone seems to have come to a consensus but you.

Unless, of course, you're actually agreeing with us now, in which case, I apologize for the Jules. :D

Well, after what Novacom said, having a neutral third party like myself in between the two of you is a really good idea.

Especially if I implement what I mentioned earlier as an effort to help keep things civil.

And the reason I was arguing so vigorously against TWSP is because of the points Trivalvia brought up earlier in this thread.

"IF (TFU-claim == TRUE) THEN
TPF-claim = FALSE
NEA-opposition=TRUE
NEA MORAL POSITION=GOOD

IF (TFU-claim == FALSE) THEN
TPF-claim = TRUE
NEA-opposition=FALSE
NEA MORAL POSITION=EVIL"

And I was originally operating under the latter description as well.

Hate to throw in what must seem to everybody yet another Monkey Wrench into the works, but myself and Doom are mainly concentrated on Nova Ireland with a token presence in Scotland, so much of this clatter about we being tresspassing on what may end up being Auman's land are fairly invalid, forces are being transferred over in response to SaintB's worryingly close presence.


Which I guess I must state again, is only a temporary response to your worrysome close presence and by NEA charter illegal colonization of Ireland. I'm just there to protect international interests and because it was the logical spot for a Doomy drop off... sadly he seems to have ICly made it too Scotland before I could say anything about it. My goal is to keep the biggest part of the war on a single front. If Auman's claims are valid I will stay or leave by thier demand, if its decided they are not then I'm keeping my defensive positions because there are three factions, two hostile and one unknown trying to use the area as thier personal playground against NEA charter law. As a member of the NEA, the EDI, and as a nation who has not joined the EP only because of this current conflict; peace and maintaining Nova Europa's territorial integrity are my only goals in this conflict.

As for TPF's claims.... I'll let the rest of NE sort that out I have very little online time these days.

Unless, of course, you're actually agreeing with us now, in which case, I apologize for the Jules. :D

I'm just trying to say that the sale is illegal, TFU was never in possesion of Nova Britannia, and even if he was at some point, he resigned his claim as soon as he left Nova Europa.

And the sound everyone is hearing is me grinding my teeth to dust...

TWSP, once and for all, did TFU EXPLICITLY declare that he was resigning his claim?

Show me the post.

Show me the proof.

Did he state, clearly and unambigiously that he is relinquishing his claim and declaring Nova Britain as unclaimed territory?

Answer this question, and answer it NOW, or so help me God, I might leave! I have had it with trying to pound sense into people here.

TFU never said he was relinquishing his claim. Normally, I'd say that he shouldn't have control over it anymore, but given the fact that he was bullied out, I think this deserves some more careful consideration. In this situation there is neither black nor white, but some grey-ish middle ground. We need to agree at that point rather that either side saying, "it's my way, or the highway!"

However, we must remind ourselves that in the event that TFU's claim is false, it does not necessarily render us evil and TPF good. Remember who it was who marched through Wanderjar to attack TWSP and who attacked EVERY NEA nation's satellites.

And how about we move all of this energy from this thread into the IC thread? There's not much going on there, and if we keep things moving along in there, we might come to a better conclusion than we would here.

And the sound everyone is hearing is me grinding my teeth to dust...

TWSP, once and for all, did TFU EXPLICITLY declare that he was resigning his claim?

Show me the post.

Show me the proof.

Did he state, clearly and unambigiously that he is relinquishing his claim and declaring Nova Britain as unclaimed territory?

Answer this question, and answer it NOW, or so help me God, I might leave! I have had it with trying to pound sense into people here.

No, he did never announced that he was going to leave, but this is what we always do!

Whenever someone joined the region, and the left, announced or not, we erased his claim from the map and left the plot unoccupied.

We never had anyone EXPLICITLY saying he was renouncing his claim, but we did it anyways.

No, he did never announced that he was going to leave, but this is what we always do!

Whenever someone joined the region, and the left, announced or not, we erased his claim from the map and left the plot unoccupied.

We never had anyone EXPLICITLY saying he was renouncing his claim, but we did it anyways.

(this might be wrong, but bear with me) Well, Dartia never announced that he was leaving. One day, I looked at the NE messageboards and, hey, Dartia was gone! But we still keep him around. Now I know TFU was not the same as Dartia, but in this case Dartia gave either little or no warning that he was leaving.

And if we had kept TFU around like we did with Dartia, we wouldn't be having this argument. He would've sold the plot.

Then it appears I must have to explain about the concept of "moral character of war"...

I will use a real life example: the American Civil War. Pop quiz, what was the war about?

If you answered "slavery", you would be partly correct. Actually, that is the reason why we consider the North to be the "Good Guys" and the South to be the "Bad Guys".

The issue of "slavery" was not raised when the shooting began and the North attempted to stop the South from seceding by force of arms. Because the South was less industrialized than the North, the efforts of the South to defeat the North would eventually be defeated through attrition, so the South sought outside allies - namely sending emissaries to England and France.

Now those emissaries didn't reach their destination because the North sent a ship out to intercept the ship the emissaries were sent on (the "Trent Affair"). Britain and France were both outraged over this blatant use of force, and were prepared to go to war in support of the South. At this point, the North appeared very much to be in the wrong. The North appeared to be Evil.

Then Lincoln issued the "Emancipation Proclamation".

All of a sudden, with the North being against slavery, and the South being for it, the positions of good and evil on each side were reversed. Britain especially had abolished slavery by law over a decade previous, and thus can no longer appear to support a side that supported slavery, no matter the offense given to it. Britain stayed out of the war, as did France. The North won the war, and the secession was crushed. End of story.

Here, establishing a clear moral character on one side of the war was enough to affect its outcome, to decide which outside powers would intervene, and on which side.

Now apply it to our situation. And please, people, try to keep up, I grow weary with repeating this every. Freaking. Time.

The position of TWSP is that TFU's claim does not exist. Therefore, the land is unclaimed, unoccupied... and can be claimed and occupied by ANYONE who moves in there first. Settlers' rights. TPF tried to do this, the NEA opposed him, essentially saying, "you can't have this land, nyah nyah."

By settlers rights - and by the fact we had made NO effort to establish bases, patrols, or surveys of the land in question - we had no right to refuse TPF's claim. TPF therefore maintains the higher moral position despite his attacks on our satellites and on TWSP, and outside nations like Questers are more likely to intervene on TPF's side! Just as important, the Nova Europa Alliance gains a reputation for being a selfish alliance that DESERVES to be destroyed!

This, people, is what I have been trying to prevent!! You either do not understand this, or you do not care about our IC reputation.

BUT!... With TFU's claim being valid, the moral character of the war changes. TPF is now infringing on a legitimate claim, and by opposing him, the Nova Europa Alliance is seen as being on the side of legal rights. Outside nations like Questers might still get involved, but they have to be careful and might not commit as much of a force as they might have. Public opinion works for us, not against us.

As has been mentioned, we've attracted the attention of powerful outside nations. They are watching us very closely. Our actions, our stance, will determine their decisions. We screw this up, we lose. Period. End of Story.

I have proposed a method that allows the NEA to get out of this mess with our reputation intact, and allows us to head off future messes like this one by making our policies explicit and backing them up with some form of force. While TPF is not bound by this solution, and the EP can probably accept or refuse it as they see fit, if the NEA adopts it, we have a chance to win! If we reject it, then we are left with a very bloody war that we could very well lose!

Understand? Please tell me you understand this...

EDIT: THANK YOU, Siriusa! Thank you for bringing that up! We've also kept Ackistan on the books and he's been gone for over a year!

THEREFORE, TWSP, by this precedent, TFU's claim is still valid, the sale is still valid, the issue is SOLVED, so LIVE with it!

IC reasons aside I object to TPF's annexation OOC'ly, as stated in my previous post.

IC reasons aside I object to TPF's annexation OOC'ly, as stated in my previous post.

I really hope it doesn't come to that.

Eh?

Perhaps you meant

I think you summed up my position perfectly there. My personal objection to TPF annexing Nova Britain is twofold. The first and simplest explanation is that Wanderjar attempted to annex Nova Belarus and was told OOC'ly that he wasn't allowed to do it, thus setting a precedent that we should follow here.

My second objection is along the lines of that in order to fit as many roleplaying nation's homelands into the region and thus 'better' the region in terms of roleplay and activity, lands must be kept open for them to claim. IC sale or conquest of lands is acceptable because somebody else must have first occupied the land for it to be purchased or captured, which adds to the roleplaying experience of Nova Europa. On the other hand, the annex of unoccupied pieces of the continent by existing members is downright selfish in the OOC sense, as they are denying those lands to another nation who would like to use them as a homeland.

I'm not sure where I stand on outside nations annexing or claiming unoccupied territories of Nova Europa, settlers rights spring to mind in the IC sense but I know that OOC'ly I would be unhappy with nations controlling significant parts of the continent when these were not their homelands, as the land would almost be going to waste.

EDIT: I also agree with Derscon's post above mine, I really feel that allowing existing members to claim new parts of the continent without express permission from the majority is going to create real OOC problems.



EDIT:
Re: What Trivalvia said:

We also kept Triv around for... how long was it? All I know is he was gone when I arrived and I wanted France, but you guys saved the spot for him. So even though he was no longer around, you still kept his spot for him.

*Sigh*

You know what? You guys can do whatever you want, I still think my position is the correct one, but if the majority believes TFU should be allowed to mantain his claim, then so be it. I am no dictator.

Well before we come to a conclusion, it would be nice if TFU came in here and gave his position one more time because he is very important to this discussion.

Eh, this argument has been going along for 3, maybe more days now, lets move on.

Eh, this argument has been going along for 3, maybe more days now, lets move on.

Amen. Let's all head back to the IC thread everyone.

Moving on. Nothing to see here. Moving on.

Re: What Trivalvia said.

We also kept Triv around for... how long was it? All I know is he was gone when I arrived and I wanted France, but you guys saved the spot for him. So even though he was no longer around, you still kept his spot for him.

I'm sorry, what? Trivalvia's posts have revolved around whether or not TFU's claim to Nova Britain is legal and the IC repercussions of war with TPF will be if they are not. My post addressed none of that, I'm prepared to leave the debate over the legality of TFU's claim to someone else.

Let me sum it up for you again, note that all of the following is completely OOC feeling.

TPF is an existing member of the Nova European continent, attempting to annex an unoccupied part of the continent. There are two reasons why he should not be allowed to do this:

1) Wanderjar and Nova Belarus. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=536424&highlight=Nova+Belarus) Wanderjar attempted to annex Nova Belarus in another thread a while ago, a consensus was reached on the region boards that this should not be allowed as the land should be saved for new nations. This sets a precedent, settlers rights do not apply in Nova Europa.

2) The 'aim' of the Nova Europa region is to provide homelands for nations in order to provide a basis for their roleplaying. In order to allow the maximum number of nation's homelands to occupy the region and thus further the 'experience' provided by the region in terms of activity and available roleplay, a 'no colonies' rule was applied. In my opinion, the 'no colonies' rule applies to existing nations in the continent as well because their claims take up land that could be used as a homeland for another nation. For this reason, colonies should only be granted only by a general consensus of the region's occupants, TWSP allowed existing nations to take claims in Nova Africa to populate the area, for example.

I'm sorry, what? Trivalvia's posts have revolved around whether or not TFU's claim to Nova Britain is legal and the IC repercussions of war with TPF will be if they are not. My post addressed none of that, I'm prepared to leave the debate over the legality of TFU's claim to someone else.

Let me sum it up for you again, note that all of the following is completely OOC feeling.

TPF is an existing member of the Nova European continent, attempting to annex an unoccupied part of the continent. There are two reasons why he should not be allowed to do this:

1) Wanderjar and Nova Belarus. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=536424&highlight=Nova+Belarus) Wanderjar attempted to annex Nova Belarus in another thread a while ago, a consensus was reached on the region boards that this should not be allowed as the land should be saved for new nations. This sets a precedent, settlers rights do not apply in Nova Europa.

2) The 'aim' of the Nova Europa region is to provide homelands for nations in order to provide a basis for their roleplaying. In order to allow the maximum number of nation's homelands to occupy the region and thus further the 'experience' provided by the region in terms of activity and available roleplay, a 'no colonies' rule was applied. In my opinion, the 'no colonies' rule applies to existing nations in the continent as well because their claims take up land that could be used as a homeland for another nation. For this reason, colonies should only be granted only by a general consensus of the region's occupants, TWSP allowed existing nations to take claims in Nova Africa to populate the area, for example.

I'm well aware of that. I'm trying to give examples of times when nations have left NE before and haven't had their plots deleted. I supplied the examples of Dartia and Trivalvia, and Trivalvia mentioned Ackistan. This was not directed at you in any way. I suppose I should've made that more clear...

Well yeah, you did quote me twice in the same post. I'm still waiting for someone to address the points I've raised, I'm not interested in the slightest on whether the IC actions of TPF and the NEA were justified until somebody gets back to me on whether the annexation is acceptable in OOC terms.

It appears that the general feeling in the NEA is that it was not acceptable OOCly. After all, that's been the norm for a long time, homelands only.

Damn the timewarps!

I'm well aware of that. I'm trying to give examples of times when nations have left NE before and haven't had their plots deleted. I supplied the examples of Dartia and Trivalvia, and Trivalvia mentioned Ackistan. This was not directed at you in any way. I suppose I should've made that more clear...

Well yeah, you did quote me twice in the same post. I'm still waiting for someone to address the points I've raised, I'm not interested in the slightest on whether the IC actions of TPF and the NEA were justified until somebody gets back to me on whether the annexation is acceptable in OOC terms.

Well, for the record, if you guys want me out of NB you're going to have to throw me out. I'm not leaving peacefully.

I agree whole heartedly with Doom and in the case of Nova Ireland your going to have to be prepared for siege warfare against a burgeoning fortress who's development has been relativley unhindered apart from a counter balance force being landed in SaintB.

Well, it seems we've all reached an impasse. While TFU's claim was disputed by you guys...it is most definitely not disputed by myself or a select few of my allies. And in the end, what really matters is this.

Who is occupying my land and when are they going to get out?

This is not an issue of semantics anymore. It's a black and white issue in the eyes of the mediating council. One side is unlawfully occupying Aumanii territory. And while a peaceful resolution is preferable, we're not above violence to achieve our political objectives. Don't take this as a threat but merely a notice of intent. If no side is willing to vacate Aumanii territory in a peaceful manner, action will be taken to insure that this action is undertaken in a timely manner. And by this, I mean a complete evacuation of foreign troops and the dismantling of an naval blockades around Great Britain and the accompanying channel islands.

That is all.

Well, it seems we've all reached an impasse. While TFU's claim was disputed by you guys...it is most definitely not disputed by myself or a select few of my allies. And in the end, what really matters is this.

Who is occupying my land and when are they going to get out?

This is not an issue of semantics anymore. It's a black and white issue in the eyes of the mediating council. One side is unlawfully occupying Aumanii territory. And while a peaceful resolution is preferable, we're not above violence to achieve our political objectives. Don't take this as a threat but merely a notice of intent. If no side is willing to vacate Aumanii territory in a peaceful manner, action will be taken to insure that this action is undertaken in a timely manner. And by this, I mean a complete evacuation of foreign troops and the dismantling of an naval blockades around Great Britain and the accompanying channel islands.

That is all.

Dude... if you rightfully own it I'm there protecting your interests. I'm there until someone relieves me or the Doomies kick me off; and I aint afraid to fight.

Well.. legit sale or no the shooting war with Doomies is about to start for me..

I believe that - OOCly at least, we've come to an understanding and TFU's claim and subsequent sale will be upheld.

For myself this fight has certainly left a bad taste in my mouth, and I hope we can move beyond it. Despite the heated rhetoric, I still believe that we've got a good bunch of RPers here, and I would like to make amends if I've rubbed people the wrong way. I know I can be passionate about issues sometimes.

TWSP - perhaps when this crisis is over we can sit down and make the unspoken rules into explicit ones for all future concerns.

I believe that - OOCly at least, we've come to an understanding and TFU's claim and subsequent sale will be upheld.

About bloody time. :D

TWSP - perhaps when this crisis is over we can sit down and make the unspoken rules into explicit ones for all future concerns.

I agree with Triv. This is a good idea.

By the way Naasha, I hope you understand that by escalating to nuking military targets, I'll resort to similar behaviour, right? I mean, I don't mind at all. If we want to go ahead with sensible escalation, then that's fine.

Alright people, I am deciding too get back into this (on TPF's side), so if any of you have a problem, speak up and we'll try too work it out.

Oh, and since I pretty much never came back, TPF, you can consider our little deal in the beginning too have never happened. As in, you keep the money and the land and I intervene on my own volition.

SO! Anyways, before I come in here, I want too know, does anybody object too my presence, and what has happened so far?

Finally, I would like too inform you that my school has this website on its block list (:curses school administrators: ) so I will be limited too RPing in the afternoon on weekdays.

Finally, I would like too inform you that my school has this website on its block list (:curses school administrators: ) so I will be limited too RPing in the afternoon on weekdays.

This. (https://stupidcensorship.com)

I am moving into the theater:

1 Raven-Class SuperDreadnought
5 Tsunamis-Class Supercarrier
10 Bluebird-Class Guided Missile Cruisers
10 G(un)-Battleships
20 M(issile)-Battleships
60 Tidal Wave-Class Guided Missile Destroyers
120 Mockingbird-Class Frigates
36 Sea Storm-Class SSN's
12 Stone Ager-Class SSGN's
300 H/K-1 Surface Attack Aircraft(VTOL)
250 H/K-2 Interceptors(VTOL)
60 TC-2C Anti-Submarine Warfare Helicopters
Assorted Supply Ships

Two comments about that RedTide.

You'll have to pass in front of Nova Britannia, occupied by SaintB, one of my allies, and part of the Naashan fleet.

Quester's fleet is also there.

Then you go in front of my coast, or at least part of it. The Denmark which is Errikland's, then over Errikland's waters and then, only then, you'll reach the blockade.

Now, during that long trip, you are at the mercy of my missiles and/or coastal guns.

Just letting you know, let's hope there is no quarrel between us =P

TWSP: SaintB's troops and Naasha's fleets are all in the south, if he swings by Britannia northwards he won't have to worry about them in the slightest.

OOC: As Doomingsland already noted, SaintB has no presence in North Britannia. As for Errikland, Ill try too see if I can get his permission too let my fleet through, we're on pretty good terms. If he wont... how close is the Blockade too International Waters in the Black Sea? If its close enough, Ill still be able too engage your fleet with my missiles, if not...

Well, I have alternatives...

Where exactly from the Atlantic is this fleet coming? I have a battle group heading towards Nova Britannica too.

OOC: Ill draw a map momentarily...

EDIT: Using Microsoft Paint, I made a general line of where I am headed:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i47/ObssesedNuker/europe3.jpg

Please note, I may swing closer too Northern Britain if TPF can tell Doom that I am on the way. In addition, this plan is subject too change. As already mentioned, I have alternatives.

EDIT2: Also, isnt Questers helping out Doom's? If so, then we're on the same side.

ATM it's

"Outsiders"

Novacom
Doomingsland
TPF
Red Tide2
Questers

Versus

The NEA in it's entirety it would seem
Derscon

And he'll have no problems getting at the continent, as I hold Nova Ireland and it's pretty heavily fortified now with a substantial fleet which was thankfully all shipped in before this blew up again, plus Doom and myself hold scotland, versus SaintB and some NEA forces in the south, with a "no man's land" stretching across much of the middle of Nova Britain that nobody totally controls.

Questers fleet is inbound in Nova Ireland/Britains direction with a Naashan fleet hovering somewhere in it's path, quite dangerously considering nuclear weapons.

Doom is advancing swiftly down Nova Britain skirmishing with SaintB

and I'm about to send a small army group to assisst plus other things...

Auman will also be supporting me.

Also, TPF -- the fungus attack is not a god-mode -- the post was there very, very early. You never responded.

However, as Wanderjar doesn't want to wipe you out, I'll respect those wishes and edit my post at a later date.

Red Tide, you realise your Superdreads probably wont even fit in the Skagerrak, let alone the Kattegat?

Red Tide, you realise your Superdreads probably wont even fit in the Skagerrak, let alone the Kattegat?

I hope he also realizes that his fleet is going to have to break through mine which has been in the Danish Straits since page 5 of the IC thread. It should be noted that my fleet is significantly larger than his.

Actually Nova Europa is supposedly 4x the RL size of the nation/seas what have you.

Sorry for the inactivity guys, I'll get a post up tonight. I'm a little irritated that I'm about to lose 5/6 of my surface fleet to a force that Questers seems to be casually tossing into the fray (albeit with a meticulously roleplayed advance, which I appreciate), but such is life. I'm prepared to toss a tactical nuke at Questers fleet before they get too close to the continent, I'll be issuing an ultimatum in my IC post in a moment.

I was under the impression that no nukes were allowed. I was using tac nukes in the first posts I made but you all made me back down all them. If NEA and others can use them I don't see why I cannot.

TPF does have a point there. Any heavy non-nuclear missiles you can toss in the tac nuke's place?

Also be advised I have my (only) carrier group en route, and am in the process of setting up a fighter umbrella all along the coastline, Naasha. If your ships need a safe harbour, I think I can provide one.

Actually Nova Europa is supposedly 4x the RL size of the nation/seas what have you.

Oh ok. I see. That makes alot of sense.

I really don't mind if he nukes my fleet, as long as he knows I'll respond in kind :p (against military targets, of course.) Besides, its not like you can't shoot nukes down with THAD.

I hope he also realizes that his fleet is going to have to break through mine which has been in the Danish Straits since page 5 of the IC thread. It should be noted that my fleet is significantly larger than his.

Where precisely is that? If its close enough too the TWSP blockade, I could engage both you and TWSP at the same time.

And as I already said, everything hinges on Errikland.

Due to the CAPITALIST charter, I believe I am obliged to help Questers and Red Tide2 in their quest with TPF, Novacom and Doomingsland to capture Nova Brittainia. Uir Fleet en route although I am in the middle of the pacific so it'll take a while.

TPF does have a point there. Any heavy non-nuclear missiles you can toss in the tac nuke's place?

Also be advised I have my (only) carrier group en route, and am in the process of setting up a fighter umbrella all along the coastline, Naasha. If your ships need a safe harbour, I think I can provide one.

Well, the sheer size of the Questarian fleet is my main concern. Given that even if all of his sailors left their ships without firing a shot they could still overrun the marines I have in place in Nova Britannia. Any clever ideas?

EDIT: Questers, I took reasonably low casualties after your initial attack as my aircraft are staying low against the sea and are reasonably stealthy. Your space based radar is unfortunately situated in the middle of a Kessler Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_Syndrome) (the link is for reference, I'm not trying to patronise) above Nova Europa. TPF launched a massive space attack on NEA orbitals earlier in the thread and with the ensuing retaliation to factor in as well, space above Nova Europa isn't really 'space' anymore so much as a swirling mess of debris.

I've been gone for a few weeks, and words can't describe how confused I am. Can someone please give me a rundown on what the hell is going on? :confused:

I've been gone for a few weeks, and words can't describe how confused I am. Can someone please give me a rundown on what the hell is going on? :confused:


Wanderjar, Tigerlan, Maldorians and TPF form Eastern Powers as a counterbalance to NEA.
Doomingsland defies a Soviet blockade to smuggle WMD's to TPF.
TPF announces annexation of Nova Britain.
TWSP denies passage of TPF settlers, NEA disputes the TPF claim.
TPF launches a massive preemptive strike against NEA space assets, decimating most of them. Retaliation is ongoing and space debris is cutting up anything still floating around up there.
Tpf invades TWSP through Wanderjar but is forced to withdraw because of stiff resistance. Wanderjar withdraws movement permissions, cutting TPF'ian supply lines.
Peace conference hosted by Derscon.
Novacom and later Doomingsland establish footholds in Nova Ireland and Scotland.
Peace conference fails after the death of the TPF'ian delegate, Trivalvia, TWSP, Wanderjar discuss future plans for continent.
Trivalvia and Beta Aurigae reinforce Soviet blockade of TPF.
SaintB deploys troops to southern Nova Brittania.
Naasha stations naval forces north of Trivalvia.
Doomani forces skirmish with SaintB patrols in central Nova Britannia.
Mercenary forces from Damirez enroute to assist SaintB.
Wanderjar launches massive invasion of TPF.
TPF attacks NEA naval assets in the Soviet blockade.
Naasha deploys marine forces to reinforce SaintB troops in Nova Britannia.
Questers launches massive naval strike against Naashan fleets in support of Doomani aims in the region.

Ah, thank you very much. You have no idea how much that helped.:)

Will IC post soon.

How exactly is Nova Brittania divided up? If someone with MS paint could give me a rough sketch, that would help me in planning my next move from here.

Quick question to the NEA guys for when I'm done all these damn papers next week.

Are you guys feeling over-attacked? I'm still intent on jumping in on this on TPFs side, but I have to get another RP/post underway before I can do it (For political reasons), and that's put me off timewise until sometime next week. But with the long waits for me it seems there's been quite a dogpile in favour of TPF, and as I always hate when good RPs become dogpiles against one side, I want to know your guys thoughts on this, to keep it fair and even.

There is no clear division. SaintB controls southern England, with my marines in the south-west. Novacom controls Ireland and Doomingsland is based in Scotland. Central and northern England, as well as Wales I guess, are all no man's land at present.

Quick question to the NEA guys for when I'm done all these damn papers next week.

Are you guys feeling over-attacked? I'm still intent on jumping in on this on TPFs side, but I have to get another RP/post underway before I can do it (For political reasons), and that's put me off timewise until sometime next week. But with the long waits for me it seems there's been quite a dogpile in favour of TPF, and as I always hate when good RPs become dogpiles against one side, I want to know your guys thoughts on this, to keep it fair and even.

For now, it's a little hard to tell. It looks like TPF's gonna be getting hit pretty hard from quite a few sides, but on the other hand the NEA's gonna get a little overwhelmed in NB... so it's hard to say for now.

From what it sounds like from you, you're bogged down with papers and stuff for now. As of now, we don't have a definite answer (well, at least I don't). If you check in later, the sides might become a little clearer.

But thanks for asking!



EDIT: Naasha, thanks. Will post IC later this evening.

A small note on my mercenary troops (Order forces), the naval contingent coming with them is quite large and might count for something in all of this.

Naasha, if possible I'd like to talk with you on MSN.

Kessler Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_Syndrome) (the link is for reference, I'm not trying to patronise) above Nova Europa. TPF launched a massive space attack on NEA orbitals earlier in the thread.

Oh, nice work TPF. Real smooth. Oh well, makes it a challenge I guess ;D

Its fine Naasha. After all, it was only a first attack, I wasn't expecting many casualties at all.

Technically in one respect it is clear cut, that map of yours of Nova Europa marks Nova Ireland as a seperate territory to Nova Britain :P

So if I had wanted to I could have sidestepped the entire issue of the sale and fortified to high hell and watched.

The NEA may feel over-attacked, but I really WILL be once Derscon, Auman, and Tigerlan invade. ;)

The NEA may feel over-attacked, but I really WILL be once Derscon, Auman, and Tigerlan invade. ;)

You know, for some reason, I don't feel too much sympathy. ;)

You know, for some reason, I don't feel too much sympathy. ;)

:)

Oh, nice work TPF. Real smooth. Oh well, makes it a challenge I guess ;D

Well, if you blow trillions of dollars to make your satellites protected from that shit, it's not that big of a deal. ;)

Well, if you blow trillions of dollars to make your satellites protected from that shit, it's not that big of a deal. ;)

I don't think you realize how hard it is to protect it, and more importantly, how expensive it would be and how heavy the sat would be for every single one.

I don't think you realize how hard it is to protect it, and more importantly, how expensive it would be and how heavy the sat would be for every single one.

I know it would be ungodly expensive. And I'm not saying all of my satellites are protected, just the important ones -- ODGs, major commsats and HORUS satellites, etc.

I think we should declare this RP closed, I'm getting tired of random people jumping in because they want to.

Uh, No. I didn't whine when Derscon and Auman jumped in randomly originally.

Uh, No. I didn't whine when Derscon and Auman jumped in randomly originally.

No, but you did whine to me about it being unfair and a dog pile, and how you were thinking of ignoring it.

So if we have a general balance, then I think that's fine.

No, but you did whine to me about it being unfair and a dog pile, and how you were thinking of ignoring it.

So if we have a general balance, then I think that's fine.

Aye, and it was at the time, that was even before Doom coming IIRC.

Uh, No. I didn't whine when Derscon and Auman jumped in randomly originally.

Auman jumped in randomly, I accept that, Derscon brought him, and I certainly OOCily disagree with the prospect of a "Aumani Nova Britannia".

As for Derscon, he didnt randomly join, I asked him to get involved.

Just like I asked my allies to get involved...

And just, again for the record, I did declare my intent to join when I had the time, about 100 posts back in this thread, over a week ago.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13238767&postcount=103

Where precisely is that? If its close enough too the TWSP blockade, I could engage both you and TWSP at the same time.

And as I already said, everything hinges on Errikland.
The Danish Straits transect Denmark, connecting the Baltic Sea to the North Sea. I also have quite a number of coastal emplacements that you would be in range of should you try to push your way through my fleets. Currently, I am blocking entrance and exit to the Baltic Sea so that is where my fleets are stationed. I will endeavor to get a post up today sometime that will hopefully clear up the matter.

Just like I asked my allies to get involved...

I'm not complaining about your allies, I'm just saying that this thread should be closed from now onwards.

As a head's up guys, I am going to be gone tonight and the bulk of tomorrow due to a debate tourney. So, I should be able to reply on Saturday night or tonight if they have computers at my motel....but being a motel I doubt that.

Similar heads-up from me; in my case, it's going to be office work, so I may not be able to post for another day or so.

RedTide2:

All of them.

Wanderjar, you have a TG.

A small note on my mercenary troops (Order forces), the naval contingent coming with them is quite large and might count for something in all of this.

Naasha, if possible I'd like to talk with you on MSN.

Sadly my firewall won't allow me to see your msn address, long story. Add mine and I'll try to catch you online.

RedTide2:

All of them.

A: Really? If thats the case, how are you possibly blockading the path of TPFs fleet?

B: Can you get more specific?

So, here are the sides insofar with their respective populations:

NEA side (not just limited to NEA nations):
Naasha 2.46 Billion
The World Soviet Party 3.191 Billion
Ezaltia 2.404 Billion
Trivalvia 1.992 Billion
Siriusa 1.5 Billion
Beta Aurigae VII 8.244 Billion
SaintB 1.293 Billion
Derscon 8.966 Billion
Wanderjar 3.851 Billion

Total Population:33.901 Billion

TPF side:
The PeoplesFreedom 4.604 Billion
Doomingsland 7.624 Billion
Novacom 5.954 Billion
Red Tide2 7.578 Billion
Questers 9.408 Billion
Automagfreek 10.12 Billion
Clandonia Prime 2.651 Billion

Total Population: 61.471 Billion

Now I'm getting a little worried. So far, TPF's side has almost double the manpower of the NEA's side. Right now, it looks like they could probably just waltz right into Nova Europa and take it for themselves.


And Clandonia Prime, while looking up defense budgets, I noticed that you don't have one (or taxes, for that matter). How then, exactly, do you plan on funding a war?


EDIT: Now, I don't want it to sound like I'm complaining. I would not mind losing. However, I would certainly mind it if some nation just came into NE and started taking every nation's land, and I'm kind of worried about that, because I'm getting the feeling that after this, it's just going to become a big land-grab.

To be fair, you forgot Auman. And Poland.

I think more than half of those people on TPF's side choose not to role play with the economic projections of the XML feed that you see with NS calculators. If I followed my NS calculator rankings then I wouldn't even be a country, taxes also indicated are based on a direct approach e.g. income tax and not taxes through indirect means e.g. sales tax and fuel tax. If I was to say a straight forward figure I probably spend about $12 Trillion NSD's on defence.

To be fair, you forgot Auman. And Poland.

I was aware of Auman, but so far he doesn't appear to have done anything after the conference, which is why I didn't add him in. Once he performs some action, I'll gladly add him to whichever list to which he belongs.

And Poland? That's part of Wanderjar.

I think more than half of those people on TPF's side choose not to role play with the economic projections of the XML feed that you see with NS calculators. If I followed my NS calculator rankings then I wouldn't even be a country, taxes also indicated are based on a direct approach e.g. income tax and not taxes through indirect means e.g. sales tax and fuel tax. If I was to say a straight forward figure I probably spend about $12 Trillion NSD's on defence.

Thanks for the clarification. That saves me the trouble of doing a budget comparison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_forgot_poland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_forgot_poland

Over my head. I totally didn't catch that. :p

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v619/DK_Viceroy/?action=view&current=NovaEuropaTrouble.png

That should make things considerably easier on rough positions of fleets, and power balance on the western part of the map, in addition to the blockade forces moving into position it will also be augmented by patrols from neaby Ireland.

Oh and as a note Red Tide, you may as well dock in either Nova Ireland which I control or Scotland which doom controls, (althought most docks for SD's and such have been dredged on Nova Ireland thus far) as you'll end up being needed more in the area.

Well, you guys have my OOC promise I won't move on NE any further than establishing my little claim on Yorkshire. If I get that, I don't plan on moving any further into NE. I don't have the time, resources, or inclination.

Well, you guys have my OOC promise I won't move on NE any further than establishing my little claim on Yorkshire. If I get that, I don't plan on moving any further into NE. I don't have the time, resources, or inclination.

Thank you. This is what I think would make us in NE rest more easily. I'd very much appreciate it if the other nations involved agreed OOCly to something like this...



EDIT:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/DK_Viceroy/NovaEuropaTrouble.png?t=1196538952

There ya go, Novacom.

EDIT EDIT: Trivalvia, TG.

OOC: Okay, AMF showed up, we are screwed, might as well have my entire population commit suicide. Will probably be less painful than death on the hands of a Freekish.

Don't be like that. Just because AMF showed up does not automatically mean death and destruction (well... usually it does). If you noticed, he's not deploying the huge guns, he's just supporting TPF. While I am more than a little worried, I do believe that the NEA has a chance of winning, albeit slightly small. We still have advantages that matter.

And AMF, I think everyone in NEA would appreciate it very much if you didn't turn us into either a) a colony of yours or b) glass. You see, most of us are very worried about ending up like British Londinium. Do you have AIM? I'd like to talk to you about this, mano-a-mano.

It was BLs fault that that happened, not AMFs or anyone elses.

It was BLs fault that that happened, not AMFs or anyone elses.

I'm well aware of that, I was just giving an example. I was not pointing fingers.

I must say I'm impressed with all of us...this is probably one of the largest wars I've seen that hasn't ended in an OOC bitchfest yet...

Lol, you're right. For now, at least...

I'm beginning to think that this war should be closed, or at least limit the number of combatants. This is starting to get rather ridiculous.

Hey guys, I will be joining the Axis.

Novacom has contracted a small amount of my forces, 1 army, 1 armada, and 1 air armada, [as he's done in the past, several times] to help his forces.

My involvement will be limited to what those forces can do, when they're destroyed, that's it for me [unless red tide or clandonia get sidelined].

Also, the numbers game actually plays out to the advantage of NE/NEA. Because you guys are fighting on your own turf and can afford to get over half of your forces to the fight, while the Axis members will probably be limited to 1/3 or 1/4 their standing military.

so you guys could deploy up to 847,525,000 to 1,695,050,000+[2.5% to 5%+ your guys total pop] troops over the whole of the war, the axis will be limited to something like 614,710,000 troops[1% the total axis population not including me].

Lol, you're right. For now, at least...

I'm beginning to think that this war should be closed, or at least limit the number of combatants. This is starting to get rather ridiculous.

Yeah, as I said earlier, though nobody paid me any atention.

I'm not complaining about your allies, I'm just saying that this thread should be closed from now onwards.

So yeah, I insist in this point.

A: Really? If thats the case, how are you possibly blockading the path of TPFs fleet?

B: Can you get more specific?

TWSP needs too answer this question.

Siriusa: You forgot me on TPF's side.

And to make you all rest easier. I am deploying no more then 750,000 troops, total. That's including any navy assets to escort, and all the people it will take to get my guys there. Soc ~400,000 total combat on the ground troops. Less if the rest of the guys on TPF's side deploy any decent ammounts.

And also, I'm not going to be taking any land, at all. You can hold me to that. I'm in this for resource trade TPF has promised me.

Siriusa: You forgot me on TPF's side.

And to make you all rest easier. I am deploying no more then 750,000 troops, total. That's including any navy assets to escort, and all the people it will take to get my guys there. Soc ~400,000 total combat on the ground troops. Less if the rest of the guys on TPF's side deploy any decent ammounts.

And also, I'm not going to be taking any land, at all. You can hold me to that. I'm in this for resource trade TPF has promised me.

Okay then. Where are your 750,000 troops? Still in your nation or en route?

Okay then. Where are your 750,000 troops? Still in your nation or en route?

Havn't deployed them yet, I need to get the OOB done. Exams and stuff have been sucking my time like a vampire. But TPF knows I'm in when that gets done.

Where they'll be, somewhere helping TPF keep his borders normal.

TWSP needs too answer this question.

All of my fleet, as seen in my armoury thread, is currently enacting the blockade.

Havn't deployed them yet, I need to get the OOB done. Exams and stuff have been sucking my time like a vampire. But TPF knows I'm in when that gets done.

Where they'll be, somewhere helping TPF keep his borders normal.

Oh yes, I forgot about that. Alright then, just let us know too.

Red Tide2:

If all of TWSP's fleet is in the Baltic Sea, and TPF needs to go through the Baltic Sea to get to Nova Brittania, then that means that yes, all of TWSP's ships can be both in the Baltic Sea and the blockade at the same time.



EDIT: As Trivalvia is just a little north of me, I'm more than a little worried about that blockade right on my doorstep. What exactly have you got there, Novacom?

Okay, I've had a chance to catch up a bit.

1. Blockade. Oh, wow. I didn't think my little fleets were that much of a threat :D. Still... Siriusa, concerning your TG, consider my answer to be "yes". TWSP, depending on what happens in both Baltic and Atlantic naval battles, some of my ships might need Soviet ports if they're too damaged to run the blockade.

Novacom, let me echo Siriusa's question; what are you putting into that blockade? And how close to the Trivalvian coastline are you planning to get?

2. AMF's involvement. I must confess when Doomingsland got involved I figured that this was a distinct possibility. I must echo everyone's concern about the possibility of destruction or absorption. Might I suggest to my fellow NEA members that a diplomatic delegation be sent and general terms defined?

OOC: Your entire fleet is in the Baltic Sea and not the North Sea? That makes my Navies job easier.

This is really off topic, and I mean REALLY off topic, but its something I wanted to share:

At the conclusion of this conflict, I will be putting the nation of Wanderjar as you all know it, on hold, more or less "pausing" it. I've given this a lot of consideration, but I want to take Wanderjar in a different direction. What I'm thinking of doing is making it into a Southern African nation based on Rhodesia/South Africa during the Bush War-Border War periods. I won't be fully retiring this Wanderjar, as its too dear to me and I've put too much effort into it. But its just that I've been doing it for so long that I've grown weary of it, it feels like more of a job now than just pure fun. I kinda wanna start over without TRULY starting over. So basically Wanderjar will be put on pause for the purpose of being able to pick it back up if I don't like the new Wanderjar. Just something I've made up my mind that I really want to do.

EDIT: Also the only "Colony" I'll be moving over is Candistan, as he's fully integrated into my society as part of me. So he'll be carrying over with the new Wanderjar.

OOC: Your entire fleet is in the Baltic Sea and not the North Sea? That makes my Navies job easier.

Your fleet wont be able to get involved in the battle at the Baltic for quite a few days, that should give us, the NEA forces, enough time to destroy the TPF'ian fleet.

Why, you ask? Because TPF attacked at night, I responded but he has not, so we are still stuck in that "night".

Not to mention our oceans are 4.5 sizes bigger than the RL ones.

I'd like assurances that none of the axis powers will start invading parts of the NE mainland, it isn't worth the effort of even participating further if the end result is us getting trodden on.

I'd like assurances that none of the axis powers will start invading parts of the NE mainland, it isn't worth the effort of even participating further if the end result is us getting trodden on.
The reason we're getting involved in the first place is to help out TPF, and we can't do that without invading the mainland, can we?

I'll cook up an ORBAT for the Blockade, but the main method of enforcing it will be use of Tokons patrolling the line ( which will also be patrolling a fair amount of the sea further out as well to pick up on any attempts to run the blockade in advance), in conjunction with my Fast Vaterkellzion Patrol Cruisers (of which I have a considerable amount in the region) and Vonsulas Submarines, with my larger ships stationed at points along the line in reserve ready to intercept vessels.

I consider it fairly flexible considering the size of the task, I'll try and draw up a more accurate map then the rough version i did in about 2 seconds of alterring the NE map to show where ppl were comming in from, though it'll be a healthy distance away from the coast.

And this isn't by any stretch of the imagination all of the Naval forces I have around here either, as most of my ships run with fairly slender crew compliments by nigh everybodies standards, you'll fast learn I have many tricks up my sleeves, and I would dearly love to see your fleet run the gauntlet around "Outsider" controlled Ireland and Northern Britain.

Sorry about the fairly insubstantial figures and statements, but having a headache doesn't make for clear thinking, and I'd rather wait till tommorow before hammering out figures, than do it now and end up arguing over them if I foul up.

Oh and Naasha, as TheSilverSky pointed out so effectivley if we invaded you would have the hometurf advantage, and that in this case is priceless, not to mention that your lines in getting troops to the front are alot shorter than ours which are for example on the other side of the NS world, so I wouldn't worry too much, I wouldn't be too quick to be pessimistic, if such an invasion were to happen you would propably be able to give us a good kicking in the teeth, remember this has sparked out into a war now.

The reason we're getting involved in the first place is to help out TPF, and we can't do that without invading the mainland, can we?

Let me rephrase, to invade the mainland with intentions of either:
a) eliminating our nations or forcing regime changes
b) occupying land in nova europa indefinately.

I can't promise we won't attempt to force regime changes...for all we know that might turn out to be one of our demands for an armistice for practicality's sake (if TPF wins, we'd want to make sure nobody is going to be in the mind to oppose him, or our new colonies in Britain), but you have my word we're not gonna go annexing whole countries if that's what you're worried about.

Yeah as Doom's said, we have no intention of holding you hostage for any length of time occupying your nation like it's Post WWII Germany, it will propably end up being a case of, we won, we have these assurances, we leave except leaving Nova Britain and Ireland as fortified bases as the only remainder.

Of course that is if we win, you may end up repelling a ground invasion entirley, I can't Vouch for the others but Regime Change isn't my IC thing unless it's incredibly hostile towards me or inept, which I had to attempt with Xharn before he decided he was better off running away.

I certainly have no intention of long term occupying or destroying any of your nations, in fact I rather like the idea of leaving no regime changes on the off chance that this may spark a second war.

We don't need to force regime changes. If we win the war, they're not going to start it again on TPF if all four of us have land in Nova Europa, will they?

Naasha, can you give me any idea on what kind of forces you have in Nova Britian? Seeing as my satellites still function id think I'd be able to pick out some of the more obvious bases/troop formations.

Here is my orbat:

Ground Forces:
----------Field Army[FA]: 477,000 Men
---------Corp: 95,400 Men x5
--------Division: 19,080 Men x5
[Division is made of: Armored Brigade x2, Mechanized Brigade x2, Airborne Brigade x1, Artillery Brigade x1, Support Brigade x1, Air Defence Brigade x1]

-------Armored Brigade: 2,600 men
200x M160A2 'Phoenix' Main Battle Tanks 800 men
100x M260A1 'Valkyrie' Infantry Fighting Vehicle 900 men
100x M260A2 'Valkyrie' Cavalry Fighting Vehicle 900 men

----Mechanized Brigade: 3,150 men
100x M260A1 'Valkyrie' Infantry Fighting Vehicle 900 men
100x M260A2 'Valkyrie' Cavalry Fighting Vehicle 900 men
150x LV-08 'Raptor' Armored Patrol/Light Truck 1,350 men

----Airborne Brigade 1,900
80x ARV-94 Stealth Attack/Recon VTOL 160 men
20x UH-90 "Rabbit" Medium Utility Helicopter 420 men
20x CH-100 "Sergeant" Large Transport Helicopter 1180 men
40x LV-08 "Raptor" Armored Patrol/Light Truck 360 men

----Artillery Brigade: 2,120 men
100x M165TSS Fjalar Self-Propelled Artillery 300 men
100x M560A1 'Rain' Mobile Rocket Artillery System[MRAS] 200 men
60x M460A1 'Broadside' Self-Propelled Howitzer 180 men
140x Artillery Support Vehicle, Mark I, "Mule" 1,120 men

----Support Brigade: 2680 men
40x Armoured Vehicle Launched Bridge, Mark II, "Alligator" 80 men
60x Combat Engineer Vehicle, Mark III, "Stallion" 240 men
40x Armoured Repair/Recovery Vehicle, Mark I, "Hercules" 120 men
320x M2A0 Armored Medical Evacuation Vehicle AMEV 640 men
160x M1070/1000 Heavy Equipment Transporter System (HETS) 320 men
320x M1074/1075 Palletized Load System 640 men
320x M1120 HEMTT 640 men

----Air Defence Brigade: 880 men
100x M165 "Aegis" Air Defence Vehicle 400 men
20x M601 "Zeus" Transporter-Erector-Launcher and Radar (TELAR) 80 men
40x M602 "Hornet" Transporter-Erector-Launcher and Radar (TELAR) 160 men
80x M603 "Wasp" Transporter-Erector-Launcher and Radar (TELAR) 240 men

ATTACHED GROUND FORCES:
------1st Heavy Armor Field Army: 24,250 men
-----1st Heavy Tank Corp: 4,850 men x5
----Heavy Tank Brigade 970 men x5
180x M620 'Sunder' Heavy Tank Destroyer 720 men
50x M630 'Ironside' Heavy Urban Combat Tank 250 men

----------------------------

Naval Forces:
1st Naval Armada = Naval Fleet: x2 [Plus a Kraken-Class Siege Dreadnought]

Naval Fleet:
2x 'Hyperion'-Class Assualt Dreadnought (ADN)
4x 'Aurora'-Class Heavy Dreadnaught (HDN)
8x Ravager-Class Fast Dreadnought (DN)
96x 'Ankaraa'-Class Fleet Carrier (CVN)
18x 'Avalon-Class Light Dreadnaught (LDN)
36x 'Maddox'-Class Strike Cruiser (CAN)
36x 'Garner'-Class Guided Missile Cruiser (CGN)
144x 'North Point'-Class Guided Missile Destroyer (DGN)
288x 'Amner'-Class Guided Missile Frigate (FGN)
80x Jörmungandr-Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (SSN)
60x 'Braach'-Class Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarines (Operates indepently from fleet, but can join up with them if needed)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
772 x Ships per fleet
--------------------------------------------------------------------
These fleets are usually accompanied by:

5x Pasteur-class hospital ships (HS)
10x Curie-Class Light Medical Ships (MSL)
30x Endeavour-class Large Combat Transport Ship (CTSA)
30x General Marsden-class AP
30x Gabin-class roll-on/roll-off cargo vessels (RO/RO CV)
30x Quay-class amphibious assault and replenishment vessels (LHR)
30x Smith-class fuel and munitions transport vessels (FATV)
20x Aylesburgh-class submarine tender (ST)
60x Flansburgh-class fleet replenishment vessel (FRV)
10x Peligro-class amphibious assault ship (AAS)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
255x Total Logisitical Ships
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Fighters: 4,032x F/A-84B, 1728x F/A-16B, 1152x A-6GC, 2,304x FB-177As
Total Helicopters: 2208x SH-4, 1536x ARV-94B
Total: 10,080x Aerial Assets
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Forces:
http://z14.invisionfree.com/TSSTechCentral/index.php?showtopic=102 <<< 1 Tactical Air Armada

Just a quick FYI, I will RP about a regiment's worth (~3,000) of air assault troops with associated vehicle and aviation support as part of Doom's army. They'll already be counted as part of his deployment.

Yah, they're Auxilia guys, essentially signed up in my army, getting paid by me, everything, they just happen to be foreigners, and Tyr here wanted to rp his guys that were serving as Auxilia in my army.

Alright, I just got back from 2 days of debates, allow me some time to catch up.