NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, considering they are going to be in your territory I was just assuming you wanted some info and if you I will give you a some quick info.

I'd be glad of any Info you have in them

I'd be glad of any Info you have in themHere you go:

Reomer, “Wild” Elves or Elves of the River, were once the most powerful force in the whole of the Great River Valley and as such have left many ruins there over the five thousand years they ruled it. Yet, though they were an ancient and established civilization by the time of their peak the Valgardians had begun to migrate from beyond the inner sea and the northern mountains beyond its northern border. Due to this gradual migration they were gradually forced back in awe of the fact of the powerful armies of Valgard and of Valgard’s own much more ancient and powerful culture. After two thousand more years of rule in the valley the Valgardians just decided to crush the Reomer and in a few decades of war had reduced the Reomer to ruin as the Valgardians possessed more powerful magics, weapons, and stronger armies which crushed the Reomer in nearly ever battle. So after the prolonged war the Reomer were forced to capitulate and become the first enslaved race of Valgard, but half of them fled to the thick forests of the Great River Valley and to this day hold out there in their own customs and live by their kings and in the same fashion as always. At the same time of their defeat the Valgardians began their 1500 year long conquest of the Great River Valley which was gradual as the migration of Valgardians took just as long to complete in its entirety.

Overall Configuration:
Kingdom of Teri: 89,000 Elves
Kingdom of Meziand: 86,000 Elves

Armies:

Kingdom of Teri 9,500 Warriors
Archers: 2,000
Medium Infantry: 5,000
Heavy Infantry: 1,000
Pikemen: 1,000
Knights: 500

Kingdom of Meziand: 8,600 Warriors
Archers: 2,000
Medium Infantry: 2,000
Heavy Infantry: 2,000
Pikemen: 2,000
Noble Infantry: 600

Okay.

What sort of condition are their Armies in?

Okay.

What sort of condition are their Armies in?They are in good conidtion and are made up of trained, not professional though, and well disiplined soldiers.

Do they have a speciality in combat?

Do they have a speciality in combat?Medium Infantry

Any threads that might interest me?

Medium Infantry

Any good at Archery?

Any threads that might interest me?My diplomacy thread might, as it still stands I am the largest potential market and trade partner, though you will have to learn to tolerate slavery then.:D

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12740232#post12740232

Any good at Archery?Not in the way yours are as these ones fire well in Medieval style volleys and are not so accurate otherwise, though they do have good range.

Not in the way yours are as these ones fire well in Medieval style volleys and are not so accurate otherwise, though they do have good range.

So your advantage in numbers could be negated by my superior archery. Just thinking about a possible conflicts of interest

So your advantage in numbers could be negated by my superior archery. Just thinking about a possible conflicts of interestMy acutal forces you are talking about, sorry I thought you were still talking about the Reomer and as for my acutal forces I have a mix of heavy armor, long range archers, medium infantry, heavy and light cavarly, and some light infantry. As well, I have a few thousand well trained Rangers.

My acutal forces you are talking about, sorry I thought you were still talking about the Reomer and as for my acutal forces I have a mix of heavy armor, long range archers, medium infantry, heavy and light cavarly, and some light infantry. As well, I have a few thousand well trained Rangers.

Won't be fighting them then...

Won't be fighting them then...Alright, once you are done with your factbook I will update everything.

two things
To scandinavians, I think when he said "what's a great house doing in byzoj" he meant "why is a valgardian great house in the Bayizjed?"

And with all the uber nations perhaps you could lend me some advice on what I might change to make my nation more viable as a trade empire? as other people have master spies this, rapid fire archers, master architects, gold and such out the wazoo, you claim to be a viable trade empire, I'm curious as to where this leaves me? Besides in the dust. How might I change myself to put my nation into a better position.

Alright, once you are done with your factbook I will update everything.

Will I add the Elven Refugee's?
If so do I RP them then? And can I change them to anyway I like or keep them the same as yours?

can i be the isengard faction from lord of the rings.

can i be the isengard faction from lord of the rings.

I based my peoples on the LOTR: The Two Towers

Will I add the Elven Refugee's?
If so do I RP them then? And can I change them to anyway I like or keep them the same as yours?I would prefer to have you to be able to rp, though any cultural changes will be more accomdation with your own people, such as they will give up slavery, though they will keep their city building and they will also adapt to the new land in the form of food gathering and agriculture.

can i be the isengard faction from lord of the rings.Sure, except no soldiers bred from the ground like some people think and the fact is massive population growth means weak soldiers so think of what kind of balance you want, strong creatures with normal population growth or rapid population with VERY weak creatures which can be masscered.

i will go with normal growth then, but everything else the same is that okay, and im adding isengard trolls.

i will go with normal growth then, but everything else the same is that okay, and im adding isengard trolls.Trolls without the ability for two of them to move a gate that weighs a few thousand tons I hope?

I would prefer to have you to be able to rp, though any cultural changes will be more accomdation with your own people, such as they will give up slavery, though they will keep their city building and they will also adapt to the new land in the form of food gathering and agriculture.

Right. I'll add them to my Factbook then

Remember spies cannot go by in the highest ranks due to the fact that everyone up there is chosen based upon their essentially blind loyalty and will not give up info readily to anyone so you will always not be in on the more hidden matters of state and politics, such as you will not have a chance to kill the Emperor due to magics detecting posions and a large number of guards, as well he is a skilled mage who will be able to combat an mage sent to kill him so the only real way to kill him is to overwhelm the palace guards.

As for the great house nearly all Valgardian nobles are born into a house.

To take out the emperor? I'd deal with it when it comes up properly. Suffice to say that when the time comes, I'll have a plan.

---

@Zhy: Frankly? I haven't a clue. You'd pretty much have to be clearly superior in one or more areas relative to the Valgardians.

Everyone pretty much already has them beat on flexibility, for one. Their entire upper elcheons rely on blind loyalty to their superiors, soldiers don't know their own tactics, and officers are conditioned to react in a specific way to a given situation.

Hey, I was brainstorming and came up with a not too shabby culture and race; here is a rough sketch-

Located on that last unclaimed island exists an isolationist culture called the Moors. They are highly urban, highly industrialized, but possess almost no magic what so ever. Most food for this highly specialized society is either from the bountiful sea, or the well governed farm areas dotting the countryside.

This economy, for a large part, is entirely self contained, half due to isolation, and half due to the fact not a lot of resources beyond the island are, or have not been, not needed or wanted. Yet, like all island cultures, it is becoming obvious that the resources on the island, notably space and wood, are becoming rather hard to find. As well as an increasingly influential middle class, this is putting more strain on the luxury market, notably gold and rubies.

The government is a something of a half-absolute monarchy, half a parliamentary democracy all with an intricate system of checks and balances. Basically, the Monarch appoints the Dukes who then appoints the Senate members, who then appoint the Monarch. Something resembling the relation The Holy Roman Empire had with The Pope back in the day.

The Federal Military is standing, but is actually rather small. Mainly due to the fact that beyond the navy, which is quite large and advanced, it was not needed. The Duke's personal armies are actually rather large, combined, and who are the main proponents of the end to the isolation policy. For as they see, new lands which to settle and claim in the name of themselves.

Mainly, it is all uber-heavy infantry. Something approaching the level of a human tank, with an overly large sword. Cavalry is rather non-existent except for a few of the richest Dukes, who can afford to devote the necessary land to feed their horses and steel to properly clad them.

The navy is quite nice, using a highly devoted selection of men they use something like the old Viking long boats in conjunction with bigger, Cog like vessels when heavy hitting is needed.

Magic, like mentioned before, is utterly non-existent beyond a few, highly paid, rather mediocre wielders who are usually part of the Monarch's bodyguard.

Of course, there is a lot of detail I am not ready to look into, but ready to divulge and create if the need arises.

Any comments, suggestions?

Updated Factbook here!
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=530750

isengards industry is pretty powerful, and they have some magice, and i wont have steriod trolls.

Hey, I was brainstorming and came up with a not too shabby culture and race; here is a rough sketch-

Located on that last unclaimed island exists an isolationist culture called the Moors. They are highly urban, highly industrialized, but possess almost no magic what so ever. Most food for this highly specialized society is either from the bountiful sea, or the well governed farm areas dotting the countryside.

This economy, for a large part, is entirely self contained, half due to isolation, and half due to the fact not a lot of resources beyond the island are, or have not been, not needed or wanted. Yet, like all island cultures, it is becoming obvious that the resources on the island, notably space and wood, are becoming rather hard to find. As well as an increasingly influential middle class, this is putting more strain on the luxury market, notably gold and rubies.

The government is a something of a half-absolute monarchy, half a parliamentary democracy all with an intricate system of checks and balances. Basically, the Monarch appoints the Dukes who then appoints the Senate members, who then appoint the Monarch. Something resembling the relation The Holy Roman Empire had with The Pope back in the day.

The Federal Military is standing, but is actually rather small. Mainly due to the fact that beyond the navy, which is quite large and advanced, it was not needed. The Duke's personal armies are actually rather large, combined, and who are the main proponents of the end to the isolation policy. For as they see, new lands which to settle and claim in the name of themselves.

Mainly, it is all uber-heavy infantry. Something approaching the level of a human tank, with an overly large sword. Cavalry is rather non-existent except for a few of the richest Dukes, who can afford to devote the necessary land to feed their horses and steel to properly clad them.

The navy is quite nice, using a highly devoted selection of men they use something like the old Viking long boats in conjunction with bigger, Cog like vessels when heavy hitting is needed.

Magic, like mentioned before, is utterly non-existent beyond a few, highly paid, rather mediocre wielders who are usually part of the Monarch's bodyguard.

Of course, there is a lot of detail I am not ready to look into, but ready to divulge and create if the need arises.

Any comments, suggestions?Good, good finally a possible human ruled country. To ask what wil be your nation's view on slavery considering the fact that colonization will porably be nesscary soon.

Well, I'll flesh out the Eranor in preparation for their emigration.

Their population is about 94 elves, 2 honorary elves (swampblood lizardfolk), 6 humans, and a housecat.

They're stronger in archery than in melee, and have more powerful connections than most. Their presence mostly means that you'll be getting visits every now and then from the Vindicators (personal ties) and could probably rely on them calling in some favours to defend the Athas clans if there's a real threat, and likely come down themselves.

isengards industry is pretty powerful, and they have some magice, and i wont have steriod trolls.Alright, to state though troll can be killed at a long range due to their sheer size and by a large group of soldiers.

Good, good finally a possible human ruled country. To ask what wil be your nation's view on slavery considering the fact that colonization will porably be nesscary soon.

Yep, human ruled.

Well, I have too ideas, basically. I either go one way: look at all other races ,other then High Elves, as 'sub-humans' who need to be carefully subjugated if not disposed of all together. The other is more nicer, something like a mere, peaceful, colonizing islandic nation looking to grasp a foothold, nothing more.

Any thoughts?

Or a couple of hobbits. That would work, too.

@Moor: Go for the xenophobes. Nice guys finish last.

Or a couple of hobbits. That would work, too.

@Moor: Go for the xenophobes. Nice guys finish last.

That's what I was thinking, but I wanted to see if there was any arguement one of you guys could pick out to say otherwise. Since no, then we have ourselves a white, xenophobic race whose highly urbanized, thus easily recruited for an army, population will be using their full numbers and technology to conquer and subjugate these lands away from the degenerate 'Magic Folk'.

If there are no objections, I will write up a post for the IC thread.

Updated Factbook here!
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=530750Added and if you want check your claim and see if you want it altered.

Any answers to my question by the way?

Added and if you want check your claim and see if you want it altered.

Perhaps a bit more of the plains around the forked river. Other than that it's spot on!

Yep, human ruled.

Well, I have too ideas, basically. I either go one way: look at all other races ,other then High Elves, as 'sub-humans' who need to be carefully subjugated if not disposed of all together. The other is more nicer, something like a mere, peaceful, colonizing islandic nation looking to grasp a foothold, nothing more.

Any thoughts?First one, as it is cool, though what do you think of my Valgardians who live lives that vary depending on the degree of nobility of their blood which varies from 450-1000 years in length. As well, they have slightly pointed years, are pretty dang tall, and are more pleasing to the eye then humans by far.

can i have the north east?

the white hand of saruman will engulf the land.

First one, as it is cool, though what do you think of my Valgardians who live lives that vary depending on the degree of nobility of their blood which varies from 450-1000 years in length. As well, they have slightly pointed years, are pretty dang tall, and are more pleasing to the eye then humans by far.

Well, obviously you aren't going to be a proper Moor, no blue eyes, no pale skin, and being tall... My guys won't find a tall girlfriend all that appealing. Of course, being better looking, it'll even it out. We'll look at you as a lower entity, but not a low life; bearable, but don't press your luck.

Well, obviously you aren't going to be a proper Moor, no blue eyes, no pale skin, and being tall... My guys won't find a tall girlfriend all that appealing. Of course, being better looking, it'll even it out. We'll look at you as a lower entity, but not a low life; bearable, but don't press your luck.Well, coming from the far north they do have pale skin and do have blue or green eyes.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=515049

First one, as it is cool, though what do you think of my Valgardians who live lives that vary depending on the degree of nobility of their blood which varies from 450-1000 years in length. As well, they have slightly pointed years, are pretty dang tall, and are more pleasing to the eye then humans by far.

...

And you said Alversia couldn't have a lot because of a 600 year lifespan?!?

Also, you might want to amend your factbook - 3-4 times human lifespan is 180-240 or so years. It's more 5-12 times now.

the white hand of saruman will engulf the land.By and by the Wizard is limited to the same rules as any other ruler/strong warrior.

what, he still has his powers right?

I'm pretty sure Saruman just led the armies. It really doesn't matter what his power level was - only that it was enough to let him duke it out with Gandalf.

His voice is all powerful :p

ya, i will agree with that.

His voice is all powerful :pExtraordinarly powerful magicain alright, though for the voice thing it should work at the max by making people sypathetic towards him and a LOT more willing to listen, though this will not work on people of high blood, powerful nobles and rulers.

...

So you're just adding a proviso that you're immune?

I think it might be easier to say it doesn't work on special characters, so it's not completely borked against Valgardians only.

what, he still has his powers right?Yeap, he can sure still throw lightning and fire balls and knock his enemies out of the way with magic, excpt no controlling of the weather of massive amounts of people.

okay but i can sway them to my cause though. like the wild men of dunland

Didn't he control just a couple of people? (Wormtongue and that regent guy)

And weather control shouldn't be too bad.

ya, but he used his voice to sway the wildmen

...

So you're just adding a proviso that you're immune?

I think it might be easier to say it doesn't work on special characters, so it's not completely borked against Valgardians only.More like key faction characters then.:p

ya, but he used his voice to sway the wildmenExactly then, though to say there of course can be dissenters still, but I will leave that for you guys to debate as I am taking an hour break.:p

Well, coming from the far north they do have pale skin and do have blue or green eyes.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=515049

Well, okay, maybe we won't consider you too bad, but we are xenophobes, so we are going to need to establish some good military victories before I can start considering you something approching 'likeable'.

i will destroy all those who oppose the white hand.

alright thaT'S FINE WITH me, are there going to be seeing stones.

Didn't he control just a couple of people? (Wormtongue and that regent guy)

And weather control shouldn't be too bad.Alright, controlling people is damn hard due to the mind be to complicted to be simply controlled outright, though mainpulation is good in my book.

Also, weather control is one of the things that I shall prevent for the time being due to the fact that there is to little magic, energy, accessible to any person to use to alter it.

Well, okay, maybe we won't consider you too bad, but we are xenophobes, so we are going to need to establish some good military victories before I can start considering you something approching 'likeable'.Militart vicitories shall come up soon enough for me.:cool:

okay, when are we going to start this?

alright thaT'S FINE WITH me, are there going to be seeing stones.For communication yes, to see enemy armies and persons no.

okay, when are we going to start this?It has started all I need is your factbook and your claim on the map which is on the front page.

i will take a chunk of the northeast next to blue to the left. and how would you like my factbook, can i just post it here.

I want the two islands that look a lot like the Falkands.

I'll get my factbook up in a jiffy.

i will take a chunk of the northeast next to blue to the left. and how would you like my factbook, can i just post it here.Your own thread please.

To state are you sure as there is still some land to the northwest which can gives you a better position to screw around with more countries.

@Calveras: Write your own factbook, please. A series of wikipedia articles does not constitute a factbook.

jsut give me the land i want please ;) and i will change the book :mad:

okay the factbook is done.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12802829#post12802829

Rough, rough factbook

Mines Done Yipeeee!!!

God, I missed out a bit...


For you, I can see your elves using rough terrain to their advantage, exploiting their far superior archers to fire and keep highly mobile, frustrating efforts to seek them out and ambushing heavy units when they are isolated.

After all, 100,000 men aren't much help when your enemy keeps moving away faster and picks off your troops while running.

Not necessarily true, with superior men you can always surround and kill the enemy. Also, despite what Lord of the Rings and other fantasy games will tell you, ranged power is quite easily defeated, it'll inflict some damage, but from any significant range it is actually very hard to penetrate plate armour, a helm or a shield.

Added to this, ranged power has limits on how many shots you have.

Looks like the Moors and Carloginias are headed for a conflict soon, both island-centred naval powers after all.

(Yay more humans, now we have Moors, Drekon and Zhy all for the human team!)

Hey Hak, maybe you should post operative densities for each slaver nation?

Uldarius, are yu in this RP

You could always resort to fire. Fire works. Or poison.

All the same, the more you can stack the odds in your favour, the more powerful a smaller number of troops will be.

Far superior archers, heavy terrain advantage and presumably enormous quantities of ammunition would allow a comparably tiny number of troops to rout 100,000 men.

Moreso if they're not required to hold ground, and can simply fall back to re-ambush them. You're thinking field battle - I'm talking about serious terrain advantage.

---

Density numbers? Hmm... I'll give them only for those who have actually done something so far and/or have notable links. All numbers include liberated slaves under the care of the Three Lanterns.

Valgard: 4 million, give or take. Home state, thus has the most enormous numbers, including slaves who have been liberated and are under their care.
Semshimistha: 600,000 or so. Major Three Lanterns project. Actual agents number around 2,300 or so.
Ligbryne: Plenty? Lack of definite population numbers prohibit proper estimates.
Byzoj: 5,000
Calorginias: Buh? No Factbook?
Athas Clans: 20. This is mostly because the Eranor have close ties to the Vindicators and given that they're all highly important members agents are around watching to make sure nobody gets any funny ideas about attacking them. (ie. one of the Vindicators has his wife and child with the Eranor)

Hakubia, what's happeing? what are you talking about?

I'm posting rough densities for Three Lanterns membership in the slaver nations...

can i start to rp yet? or am i supposed to wait?

We don't have slaves

And regarding the piercing of heavy armour, there are armour-piercing arrows and superior bows with alot more velocity than a normal bow, the Japanese bow for example. Armour would not be a problem and much of my terrain is unpassable unless you know the correct routes

NC: you can start once you have a factbook and territory, have you done that yet?
If you haven't there are some samples on page one, and yes, I am in this RP.



Hak's post:
You could always resort to fire. Fire works. Or poison.

All the same, the more you can stack the odds in your favour, the more powerful a smaller number of troops will be.

Far superior archers, heavy terrain advantage and presumably enormous quantities of ammunition would allow a comparably tiny number of troops to rout 100,000 men.

Moreso if they're not required to hold ground, and can simply fall back to re-ambush them. You're thinking field battle - I'm talking about serious terrain advantage.

No...I'm not.

If you know there are say, five thousand men in an area of forest and you have a hundred thousand you can simply surround the area and move in.
Terrain advantages do allow massive odds, but there are limits, archers are good in theory but against plate they tend to somewhat ineffective at a range, even with bodkin heads and so forth kills are not a guarantee.
Thus those forces would eventually be located and destroyed, granted the larger army might lose more men...like ten thousand or more (depending on army qualities) but it's pretty much a given.

To further carry the point, a small force would find it, very, very hard to ambush a much larger group, there are no "hard and fast" rules to warfare, but for instance with siege you'd want 5:1 odds against the defenders with ambushes you wouldn't want to try for more than 5:1.

Ambush is ,however, a field with a great deal more variance.
If they are a force that happens to march in a loose strung-out marching formation without full weapons, then it is comparatively easier to carry a successful ambush, albeit you wouldn't capture/kill as many men.
If they happen to march in tighter, more disciplined and close together companies then an ambush would be harder in several respects.

Then there's the quality of men/armour, training, experience and national individual characteristics.

To use the example of Valgard.

For the following examples we will assume a march through enemy territory:

If there were ten thousand Valgardian troops marching through a light woodland, chances are you'd want at least a third of their number to ambush them, because they are a professional force with good quality equipment and are likely to be pretty experienced.

This would be different with, say, the Moors.

In the scenario that ten thousand of their troops were marching you could easily carry off an ambush with less men because they're less likely to be suited to land battle in terrain, however although you might cause more damage to supplies chances are you'd kill less men because they are more heavily armed.
(I think)

To use my own army as an example:

Ten thousand men could be ambushed by a smaller force, but would likely receive almost immediate retaliation from peripheral crossbowmen as my army tends to move in a formation ready for battle at any time.
But due to the nature of the attack many men would likely not be expected the assault and be lost to the first few volleys.
For a similar reason, you'd want to make sure you attacked it with a force that was at least a third of its size, because a too small force wouldn't be able to inflict enough casualties in the limited amount of time.


Now in standing battle the turnaround might be completely different, the Moors might be able to beat me and Valgard in a pitched battle.

But as I said, there's the problem that no matter how good a small army is, there's simply a limit to how much damage it can do.

Cases like Agincourt will not happen here, as we are generally smarter to see that directly assaulting a fortified position across a muddy field is a bad idea.

Cases like Battle of Okehazama might still happen, as that was essentially an ambush, but it's unlikely as we're probably not stupid enough to have our armies getting drunk and not expecting a attack.

Alversia:
We don't have slaves

And regarding the piercing of heavy armour, there are armour-piercing arrows and superior bows with alot more velocity than a normal bow, the Japanese bow for example. Armour would not be a problem and much of my terrain is unpassable unless you know the correct routes

Check your data, Japanese bows were not very good. I assume you mean the Yumi's?
Mongol compound bows were better...
And as I said, even the English Longbow had trouble with plate armour and couldn't penetrate a good shield, for that sort of penetration you need a lance, which at the same time doesn't have the range, or a Ballista/ siege engine, maybe a really heavy crossbow would work too, but they'd be like the types made that needed literally five minutes to reload if not more, but to make a bow that good would require more force to draw than a human possesses.

---

Density numbers? Hmm... I'll give them only for those who have actually done something so far and/or have notable links. All numbers include liberated slaves under the care of the Three Lanterns.

Valgard: 4 million, give or take. Home state, thus has the most enormous numbers, including slaves who have been liberated and are under their care.
Semshimistha: 600,000 or so. Major Three Lanterns project. Actual agents number around 2,300 or so.
Ligbryne: Plenty? Lack of definite population numbers prohibit proper estimates.
Byzoj: 5,000
Calorginias: Buh? No Factbook?
Athas Clans: 20. This is mostly because the Eranor have close ties to the Vindicators and given that they're all highly important members agents are around watching to make sure nobody gets any funny ideas about attacking them. (ie. one of the Vindicators has his wife and child with the Eranor)

I think that's a bit too many for a secret organisation...

soldier for soldier, i think my Uruk-hai are superior to all of them, a Uruk-hai is hella strong and has almost complet plate chain and leather armor.

Ahh NC I'm not sure you know what you're up against...
My Saeli and Kiishra are both significantly stronger than Uruk-hai, although rare.
Scan's Valgardians would be at least as good and I'd say Wecca's Lesser Dragonkind would also be superior, on average.

I'm not sure about raw strength...but if one on one was going to duke it out I'd say that those listed would probably better an Uruk-hai.

I suggest you read through all the factbooks and stuff, gather information on everyone and read past posts to get an outline of what everyone is like.

Frankly, it's not going to come up, because we're almost always going to engage in battles with relatively similar army scale.

A deployment of 100,000 men is met by 50,000 - 150,000 men. Almost invariably.

---

A few million sounds about right as far as my conception for the Three Lanterns requires - as they need their own support infrastructure and housing for ex-slaves, as well as the ex-slaves themselves. They also need the infrastructure to produce or trade for the high quality gear they use to compete with governments, and train their members.

I really shouldn't have even bothered coming up with numbers.

Here, fixed.

Valgard: Lots and Lots
Semshimistha: Lots
Ligbryne: Plenty?
Byzoj: Enough
Calorginias: No Factbook.
Athas Clans: 20. This is mostly because the Eranor have close ties to the Vindicators and given that they're all highly important members agents are around watching to make sure nobody gets any funny ideas about attacking them. (ie. one of the Vindicators has his wife and child with the Eranor)

You make a good point, your Uruk's should certainly stand up well given that they all have plate-and-mail armour.
You might want to improve on the discipline and training that LotR Uruk-hai had, as Orcs are pretty much cannon fodder and the Uruk-hai did little better.

wow two people are stronger, and scand may be even and not by far. Im going to dominate have you seen this, each soldier has this.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.thak.ca/images/lotr/urukhai_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thak.ca/urukhai.html&h=687&w=447&sz=54&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=QNEgZk38qcOHiM:&tbnh=139&tbnw=90&prev=/images%3Fq%3DUruk-hai%2Barmor%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GGIH_enUS222US223

Frankly, it's not going to come up, because we're almost always going to engage in battles with relatively similar army scale.

A deployment of 100,000 men is met by 50,000 - 150,000 men. Almost invariably.

---

A few million sounds about right as far as my conception for the Three Lanterns requires - as they need their own support infrastructure and housing for ex-slaves, as well as the ex-slaves themselves. They also need the infrastructure to produce or trade for the high quality gear they use to compete with governments, and train their members.

I really shouldn't have even bothered coming up with numbers.

I agree with point #1.

I just wanted to know how many men you think you had, because it would define much.

Indeed, I'd make a factbook if I were you, population, territory, military and industry are all important areas.

yes i will give them better training, and as for the orcs they suck, im only using them as warg riders for military and the rest for work, and your right they will be basically the same amount of men in each battle for each side. but it's all about strategy and how your men fight. and youve seen uruks take a couple of arrows before going down lol.

I answered your post but mine came first, Jolt's feeling warpy today.

i already gave my population and stuff.

how are we supposed to resolve battles? i mean, we could sit for quite some time while people duke it out because they each dont think they will lose?

great everyone left, its just me and Hakaburia

Everyone can't be on all the time.
That's a tricky thing, you just have to make certain assumptions, if your enemy is outmanoeuvring you, you'd be hard pressed to continue to claim victories.

so its mostly trust and understanding of the situation, okay, i will probably start with scout uruk-hai like off of the first movie. armed and fast

wow two people are stronger, and scand may be even and not by far. Im going to dominate have you seen this, each soldier has this.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.thak.ca/images/lotr/urukhai_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thak.ca/urukhai.html&h=687&w=447&sz=54&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=QNEgZk38qcOHiM:&tbnh=139&tbnw=90&prev=/images%3Fq%3DUruk-hai%2Barmor%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GGIH_enUS222US223

My lesser dragonkind are able to carry more equipment, but to balance everything out they have weaker arms (as in, carrying). And they can't fly, before you ask. Only the greater ones.

As for the armour, that's pretty much one of my focuses. That is good, but mine is a bit more covering than that. As in, plate all over, with a sort of local cotton on under that overs protection, with good quality materials. Your doing a good choice, with the Urui-kai though. Just keep in mind that by using them in battle you haven't the best of the best.

Finally! Humans! I'll have to invite you all to dinner...

(And just a point, Zambistan has the islands your after, though if Scan is feeling particullary nice, he might fabricate another/some more island/s for you.)

As for population figures, I'm not too fond of giving exact figures, though I'll definately base them off Uldarious'.

The Human factbook. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12802829#post12802829)

i will use Saruman for a diplomat

You could always resort to fire. Fire works. Or poison.

All the same, the more you can stack the odds in your favour, the more powerful a smaller number of troops will be.

Far superior archers, heavy terrain advantage and presumably enormous quantities of ammunition would allow a comparably tiny number of troops to rout 100,000 men.

Moreso if they're not required to hold ground, and can simply fall back to re-ambush them. You're thinking field battle - I'm talking about serious terrain advantage.

---

Density numbers? Hmm... I'll give them only for those who have actually done something so far and/or have notable links. All numbers include liberated slaves under the care of the Three Lanterns.

Valgard: 4 million, give or take. Home state, thus has the most enormous numbers, including slaves who have been liberated and are under their care.
Semshimistha: 600,000 or so. Major Three Lanterns project. Actual agents number around 2,300 or so.
Ligbryne: Plenty? Lack of definite population numbers prohibit proper estimates.
Byzoj: 5,000
Calorginias: Buh? No Factbook?
Athas Clans: 20. This is mostly because the Eranor have close ties to the Vindicators and given that they're all highly important members agents are around watching to make sure nobody gets any funny ideas about attacking them. (ie. one of the Vindicators has his wife and child with the Eranor)Hate to tell you liberate slaves would in all likelhood have to flee the Empire in its entirety due to the widespread pratice of slavery as in any slave society their are slave hunters and keeping that many would be impossible, as well considering that you would then nearly have a quarter of all free persons I have to say no without any exception that your number is WAY WAY too big for pratical purpouses and as such I make my decision that the max number of free slaves that can exist in my Empire without directly bringing down the full attention of my people is a couple hundred thousand as you have to know your abilities are limited, that the land needed to feed all of them would be noticed by my own beuaracy, that you could not have possibly liberated that many slaves without being a standing force because you have the resementment of the ruling class and a good chunk of the free non-Valgardians, who depend on the money made from slave profits, the money needed to feed and house all those slaves could not possibly exist for you within my nation as you would have to essentially become a state to do so, and moving towards your overall agent numbers would be a MAX 24,000 due to the facts of it being any larger there would be essentially open membership, the possbility of my own agents just inflitrationg the organization then and then simply taking down names and then it would be like bringing down the mafia as where there is a name it makes it a LOT easier to find your agents. As for the ruling this is not really debateable as you chose to be a secret group and you are limited as such and above all do not have the resources to maintain such a large network without being discovered easily.

Can i use sarumans crows for scouts? i want to.

With regards to my Archers, There is no need for my troops to appear in order to fire an volley. If they hide behind an area with cover but a small opening, they can shoot without being visible to the enemy, such as the Haradrim ambust in LOTR.

And crossbows take far longer to load than a Bow does.

I hope everyone realizes that the Empire of Selucia is a human faction as well. I realize that I haven't posted much at all, which I'm hoping to change soon, but I just wanted to make sure everyone got their facts right. :p

My people view non-humans very similarly to how the Moors view them, so I think our people will get along just fine Moorington. How would you feel about a military alliance to benefit both our peoples?

I hope everyone realizes that the Empire of Selucia is a human faction as well. I realize that I haven't posted much at all, which I'm hoping to change soon, but I just wanted to make sure everyone got their facts right. :p

My people view non-humans very similarly to how the Moors view them, so I think our people will get along just fine Moorington. How would you feel about a military alliance to benefit both our peoples?

This is interesting. Me vs. Moors + Selucia, possibly Zho, as it seems. In fact, I could be the main reason for such an alliance.

I hope everyone realizes that the Empire of Selucia is a human faction as well. I realize that I haven't posted much at all, which I'm hoping to change soon, but I just wanted to make sure everyone got their facts right. :p

My people view non-humans very similarly to how the Moors view them, so I think our people will get along just fine Moorington. How would you feel about a military alliance to benefit both our peoples?

This is interesting. Me vs. Moors + Selucia, possibly Zho, as it seems. In fact, I could be the main reason for such an alliance.

Well, before everyone starts making alliances, I have to mention that Moorington doesn't really know any of you guys, just let me make my 'Uber Invasion' thread and then we can get to all of those nice details, like who to kill and whatnot.

Sorry to burst bubbles Drekon, but, I was going to invade your country before anything, gotta go to plan B...

Well, before everyone starts making alliances, I have to mention that Moorington doesn't really know any of you guys, just let me make my 'Uber Invasion' thread and then we can get to all of those nice details, like who to kill and whatnot.

Sorry to burst bubbles Drekon, but, I was going to invade your country before anything, gotta go to plan B...

Surely you'd have rumours, though? Of me at least. If you read my factbook, there's a substory about me wiping out a human kingdom. Plus, we'll be on the same sea, so our ships will have bumped into each other.

This is interesting. Me vs. Moors + Selucia, possibly Zho, as it seems. In fact, I could be the main reason for such an alliance.

I would be plenty willing to join you in a counter alliance should need be although said alliance would stress defence and attacking first only if there is a believable threat.

I would be plenty willing to join you in a counter alliance should need be although said alliance would stress defence and attacking first only if there is a believable threat.

Interesting stuff, but we need to start diplomatic relations first. You wouldn't mind doing the discovery thread, would you? I would, it's just that I'm watching a film right now. If not, I'll do it tomorrow morning (GMT). But if you do, I'll be able to reply. It could only be against the human nations, if your worried about Uldarious.

Ya I'll do just don't expect it to be done to quickly.

Surely you'd have rumours, though? Of me at least. If you read my factbook, there's a substory about me wiping out a human kingdom. Plus, we'll be on the same sea, so our ships will have bumped into each other.

You have a point, and undoubtably we have both tried to out do each other's story of a great thing our respective countries has made.

I would be plenty willing to join you in a counter alliance should need be although said alliance would stress defence and attacking first only if there is a believable threat.

Okay, fair enough-

My thready. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12805036#post12805036)

I just attacked everyone, so I can start off on the same foot with everyone, the 'lets put the pieces back together' foot.

Hate to tell you liberate slaves would in all likelhood have to flee the Empire in its entirety due to the widespread pratice of slavery as in any slave society their are slave hunters and keeping that many would be impossible, as well considering that you would then nearly have a quarter of all free persons I have to say no without any exception that your number is WAY WAY too big for pratical purpouses and as such I make my decision that the max number of free slaves that can exist in my Empire without directly bringing down the full attention of my people is a couple hundred thousand as you have to know your abilities are limited, that the land needed to feed all of them would be noticed by my own beuaracy, that you could not have possibly liberated that many slaves without being a standing force because you have the resementment of the ruling class and a good chunk of the free non-Valgardians, who depend on the money made from slave profits, the money needed to feed and house all those slaves could not possibly exist for you within my nation as you would have to essentially become a state to do so, and moving towards your overall agent numbers would be a MAX 24,000 due to the facts of it being any larger there would be essentially open membership, the possbility of my own agents just inflitrationg the organization then and then simply taking down names and then it would be like bringing down the mafia as where there is a name it makes it a LOT easier to find your agents. As for the ruling this is not really debateable as you chose to be a secret group and you are limited as such and above all do not have the resources to maintain such a large network without being discovered easily.

I've already changed the numbers. A few posts down. Those numbers came up after about 10 minutes of random, arbitrary numbers.

It's now

Valgard: Lots and Lots
Semshimistha: Lots
Ligbryne: Plenty?
Byzoj: Enough
Calorginias: No Factbook.
Athas Clans: 20. This is mostly because the Eranor have close ties to the Vindicators and given that they're all highly important members agents are around watching to make sure nobody gets any funny ideas about attacking them. (ie. one of the Vindicators has his wife and child with the Eranor)

And no numbers will be given beyond those. They could be more than 24,000, less than 24,000, whatever - it just doesn't matter enough for me to define it properly.

Please read *all* of it before replying in future.

With regards to my Archers, There is no need for my troops to appear in order to fire an volley. If they hide behind an area with cover but a small opening, they can shoot without being visible to the enemy, such as the Haradrim ambust in LOTR.

And crossbows take far longer to load than a Bow does.

True, but crossbows can supply more force and in an ambush the fight isn't going to last that long, if I have ten thousand Crossbowmen and you have three thousand, then I still outnumber you by more than three-to-one meaning you'll have a harder time escaping from damage, especially considering the crossbows superior armour penetrating power.

Let us say hypothetically that five thousand archers ambushed fifteen thousand of my men, given standard order that could be five to ten thousand crossbowmen.

Granted you have the element of surprise, but crossbowmen don't have to be lightly armed and the plate and leather system of armour means the vitals are protected, so my losses would be lower.
Let us say you kill a thousand men in the course of the first few volleys, this is fair enough to assume given the armour of my men and their discipline, so they're likely to bring up shields after the first volley.
In the response you're still dealing with four-to-nine thousand crossbow bolts, and the "armour save" isn't going to be nearly as generous.

Bows do have a range advantage, but a lot of people forget that the longer the range the less effective the weapon.

I'm not saying your system sucks or anything, 'cause it doesn't, but just don't expect things to be that straightforward.
Just remember that when dealing with missile weaponry high places are your friend.

Oh yeah, this is all we know of Carlo:

Name: Kingdom of Halestia

Location: Islands of the Western Sea.

Race: Elves (Hale, Elves)

Description: Hale elves are tall, most with stunning blue eyes. Most of them are middle-class citizens earning a hard day's work. Their skin is usually white-tan, exceptions mostly to immigrants and slaves. The will of the Hale elves is absolute. The Hale elves do their best to expand their influence and culture to the cities and places of the main-land in order to open up more useful markets where they can trade their valuable recources. The class system of the Hale elves is as follow:

King, Queen
Nobles
Government Officials
Upper-MIddle class (Usually wealthy merchants)
Middle-Class
Lower-MIddle
Poor
Slaves.

The King and Queen posess the highest authority throughout the Islands of Halestia. The Nobles are the second. The Government officials which include the parliament are third, and the Upper MIddle-Class is the fourth.

Form of Government: Monarchy. Hereditary.

Government officials are elected by the people of Halestia and do the bidding of the department where they were elected from. Only the position of King or Queen is not voteable.

---

Military

Army- There is not so much an army as there is a large home-guard for each island in the Western Sea. The homeguard's system works like this:

10 men - Squad
100 men- Platen
1,000 men- Halest

Depending on the isles size, population, and worth to the Kingdom is how many homeguard soldiers are placed on it. When an army is fielded by the Kingdom of Halestia the organization works like this:

12 men- Hale
120 men- Balest
1,200 men- Battalion
12,000 men- Legion
120,000 men- Army

Navy-

The Kingdom of Halestia prides itself on having the largest, most well trained navy in the world. The navy is used as the major expander of the Kingdom and is widely regarded as 'the law of sea' for the world's oceans. The navy's size and strength is grounded on the pretense of 'Can't beat us if you can't get to us'. The King and Queen have always been supportive of the Halestian navy and continue to do so.

((OOC- Can anyone give me any reference sites to useful ships of the ancient era? I know of several Carthaginian, Greek, and Roman ones))

The navy is organized like this-

3-12 ships - Hunting Pack

12-20 ships - Disruption Squad

20-30 ships - Fleet

30-60 ships - Battle Fleet

60+ Ships - War Fleet

((OCC- The ships in each type of fleet will be added when I get a list of the ships I want in them))

---

Economic Rating - Very strong (Not using NS stuff)

The Halestian merchant fleet is one of the largest, if not the largest in the world. They do business with countries and businesses all over the world. Halestian merchants are widely reknowned for their fair and honest trade throughout the world.

Slavery Stance- Limited
Naval Strength- Extremely High
Army Strength- As needed, no standing army
National Guard- Decent
Trade - High
Recources- Rich
Technology- High
Architecture- Good
Government- Semi-Corrupt
Diplomacy - Not so good
Tax Rate- 15%
Magicka- Decent

((OOC- If you don't like how much good stuff I put for them, provide me some more cons I could add.))

---

History of Kingdom- The Kingdom of Halestia was formed more then 120 years ago at the start of the Hylest Dynasty which is still currently in power. Naval history also starts at about this time when Hylest overlords deemed it neccessary to use naval supremcy to win over control the isles of the Western ocean. They suceeded and a King was crowned at The Palace of Ulenaste on the eve of Founder's day, when the first dynasty was established. Politicaly strong then, the politics of the Kingdom have been slowly slipping away. The Kings and Queens for years have been slowly influencing parliament to give them centrilized control. Their efforts have slowly been taking their toll on the parliament whose power weakens yearly.

Soon after the unification, trade fleets brought the rich recources of the islands to the mainland and they established trade connections with every land on the continent; however with the Valgradian rise to power the Halestian monopoly in the Great River Valley shattered and the Halestians have been bitter over this for years and years. Diplomatic talks with the Valgradians is non-existant and will only occur if the recources of the Great River Valley be placed peacfully under Halestion control.

Island names:

Carloginias - Middle-most island.
Nesternia - Top most island.
Bale - The other big island
Flaysia - Southern most small island
Harlos- Northern most small island.

Capital- Carloginia

Major cities-
Elenglynn
Alyeid
Hnossus
Olasus
Nocturnus
Jalyus

Recources -

Timber
Water
Gold
Stone
Marble
Iron
Silver

---

I've already changed the numbers. A few posts down. Those numbers came up after about 10 minutes of random, arbitrary numbers.

It's now

Valgard: Lots and Lots
Semshimistha: Lots
Ligbryne: Plenty?
Byzoj: Enough
Calorginias: No Factbook.
Athas Clans: 20. This is mostly because the Eranor have close ties to the Vindicators and given that they're all highly important members agents are around watching to make sure nobody gets any funny ideas about attacking them. (ie. one of the Vindicators has his wife and child with the Eranor)

And no numbers will be given beyond those. They could be more than 24,000, less than 24,000, whatever - it just doesn't matter enough for me to define it properly.

Please read *all* of it before replying in future.To note you have to recognize I do all have multiple things to worry about so it is not entirely possible for me to stay on for long periods of time and as such I usually reply by a post to post order, but to note I was just seting some limits to what can be with your 'secret' organization.

To note you have to recognize I do all have multiple things to worry about so it is not entirely possible for me to stay on for long periods of time and as such I usually reply by a post to post order, but to note I was just seting some limits to what can be with your 'secret' organization.

Yeah, Scan, I already raised the same argument.
You can't really have a 'secret' organisation that has hundreds of thousands or millions of members with nations our size.
When its that big it's like a political force or something, something that's too big to really be rid of.

Yeah, Scan, I already raised the same argument.
You can't really have a 'secret' organisation that has hundreds of thousands or millions of members with nations our size.
When its that big it's like a political force or something, something that's too big to really be rid of.Thank you, as these 'secret' groups have to have some serious limits and realizations.:rolleyes:

Bah. I'm not good with estimating massive overall numbers. Especially not for specific subsets, like Sprawling Secret Organisation members.

Just tell me what you want to attack and I'll tell you who is there and how many there are.

They may as well respawn every thirty seconds for all I care.

However, I think I may just blossom it into a full political force, like the Zhentarim.

Come to think of it, I'd like to peg down that little river area enclosed by mountains east of Valgard as Three Lanterns territory.

After all, liberated slaves hardly just vanish into thin air when they escape, and it helps justify considerably larger Three Lanterns numbers because then they actually hold land.

True, but crossbows can supply more force and in an ambush the fight isn't going to last that long, if I have ten thousand Crossbowmen and you have three thousand, then I still outnumber you by more than three-to-one meaning you'll have a harder time escaping from damage, especially considering the crossbows superior armour penetrating power.

Let us say hypothetically that five thousand archers ambushed fifteen thousand of my men, given standard order that could be five to ten thousand crossbowmen.

Granted you have the element of surprise, but crossbowmen don't have to be lightly armed and the plate and leather system of armour means the vitals are protected, so my losses would be lower.
Let us say you kill a thousand men in the course of the first few volleys, this is fair enough to assume given the armour of my men and their discipline, so they're likely to bring up shields after the first volley.
In the response you're still dealing with four-to-nine thousand crossbow bolts, and the "armour save" isn't going to be nearly as generous.

Bows do have a range advantage, but a lot of people forget that the longer the range the less effective the weapon.

I'm not saying your system sucks or anything, 'cause it doesn't, but just don't expect things to be that straightforward.
Just remember that when dealing with missile weaponry high places are your friend.

I never said they would stick around to destroy the entire column. My Archers are like snipers and move after every few shots. They are also unnervingly accurate with their weapons (100-200 years training) and could hit your crossbowmen as they break cover to fire their own weapons. You wouldn't know where my archers were, but they'd already have a pshycological advantage. Almost every arrow finding a target would most defineatly lower morale, which is the primary intention. All my Archers have to do is slow down your army and inflict losses. Once this is achieved, they'll retreat.

Casualties would also increase significantly if you decided to use poison. The Repeating Crossbow got around a lower penetration ability by using poison in some cases, for one.

If you've got some sort of deadly poison on your arrows, then you don't need to hit vitals to score a kill.

True, but getting that much poison for every arrow would be quite hard and given the difference in species there's no guarantee that what kills an Espent will kill a human, for example.
Also, you still have to hit flesh, which may be difficult, granted it might raise a chance of a kill from 1/6 to 1/4 or something (random numbers).
BTW I think Three Lanterns territory is a good idea, will it have like, forts and stuff or is it all very on the low-down?

I never said they would stick around to destroy the entire column. My Archers are like snipers and move after every few shots. They are also unnervingly accurate with their weapons (100-200 years training) and could hit your crossbowmen as they break cover to fire their own weapons. You wouldn't know where my archers were, but they'd already have a pshycological advantage. Almost every arrow finding a target would most defineatly lower morale, which is the primary intention. All my Archers have to do is slow down your army and inflict losses. Once this is achieved, they'll retreat

But the problem is that no bow is really accurate from more than a hundred paces or so, it doesn't matter how good of a shot you are at a certain distance your ability to aim is severely impaired, to the point than aiming simply is not a good idea.
And if you're trying to get close enough to aim you're already doing my work for me as rate-of-fire and range are the major advantages bows have over crossbows, and why would I have to break cover to fire?
Bow's don't shoot like guns, experience will tell someone how to hit an area, such as the torso, but it's not like you could shoot through a patch of chain mail in the armpit to hit a vital organ.
Also morale warfare tends to prove ineffective against professional armies, if you were fighting peasant conscripts you'd demolish then, but as it is against men with ten to fifteen years training and experience merely killing a few men doesn't mean a lot.

Missile weaponry on the whole tends to work the best against unordered and unarmed troops, lack of discipline helps too, against a professional, disciplined and organised foe the best you can really do is kill off some of the less sharp and get lucky shots, against knights you could always hope to kill horses too...

As I said, I'm not dissing your strategy and in the right position your archers could make, say, a narrow-sided rocky valley a death-trap, and you wouldn't catch me trying to escalade one of your fortresses in a hurray, or a mountain camp, or a hilly area even.
But Archery is something which is best used defensively and with terrain support, it is nigh-on impossible to take a well-supplied and well-fortified position held by skilled archers, like you.

But using archers to ambush a well-armoured and trained army at aiming-quarters is not a very good idea.

All entrances to my territory are heavily wooded and there are only a few paths that could be negoitated safely without guidance. These areas are where an ambush would happen.

And, actually, knowing the exact arc of the projectile will allow someone to hit a very small target from a distance away.

My Archers are masters of stealth. The first thing your troops knew about their presence would be an arrow in their throat.

No matter how much training and discipline an Army has, there is always a breaking point where they can't take anymore and will start to look after themselves only.

I know I could never hope to defeat an entire army with these tactics, but cause casualties and hope to demoralise them.

I'm thinking one of those 'hiding by being obvious' things. Set it down as a major tourist destination, establish a city and build a fortress in the middle. Keep the money flowing in through trade and a reputation as an overall rather nice place to retire, and build it into a major city state whose coffers can be relied upon to fund the Three Lanterns.

That, and as a city state they are also justified in fielding their own army - all Three Lanterns loyalists, of course - and construct some proper walls.

After that, establish a number of smaller towns and villages around, who are protected by the city state located in the middle and the forts protecting the main entrance in. And if somebody gets it into their mind that the city is just a cover, and gains proof, they can always be attacked by 'bandits' on the way back.

I will defeat your 100,000 men by selling them cheap souvenirs on their way through!:D:p No amount of training will make them immune to buying tchotchkes!

---

I think the main morale issue is if Alversia manages to keep up the sniping.

Sooner or later they're going to begin feeling like prey.

I'm thinking one of those 'hiding by being obvious' things. Set it down as a major tourist destination, establish a city and build a fortress in the middle. Keep the money flowing in through trade and a reputation as an overall rather nice place to retire, and build it into a major city state whose coffers can be relied upon to fund the Three Lanterns.

That, and as a city state they are also justified in fielding their own army - all Three Lanterns loyalists, of course - and construct some proper walls.

After that, establish a number of smaller towns and villages around, who are protected by the city state located in the middle and the forts protecting the main entrance in. And if somebody gets it into their mind that the city is just a cover, and gains proof, they can always be attacked by 'bandits' on the way back.

I will defeat your 100,000 men by selling them cheap souvenirs on their way through!:D:p No amount of training will make them immune to buying tchotchkes!

---

I think the main morale issue is if Alversia manages to keep up the sniping.

Sooner or later they're going to begin feeling like prey.Hate to tell you I can think on no plausible way in which your city, or land, can survive so close to me and being a haven for my enemies in which I could simply destroy your city and lands with my army. As such I will have to deny your application to have some land on the other grounds if you did you would become a nation and would no longer be able to be a secret organziationa according to my rules.

Except that you simply cannot tell there your enemies are there. That would be metagaming.

How do you know it's a haven for your enemies? Hate to tell you, but you have *no way of knowing* it's a haven for your enemies.

For all you know, a city state has been founded because there are nice surroundings. It's a *nice place to retire*, not an *enemy stronghold*. You can't just 'Oh, that's my enemy' at it, because it's not obviously an enemy. At all.

And it's not close at all. It's quite secluded, actually, and if retconned then it will have had plenty of time to establish itself as strong enough to survive any reasonable attempt at conquest.

Then the Three Lanterns change from being a mere secret society to a political force in hidden control of a large city state with a juggernaut of an intelligence organisation. And it will be retconned to be already too powerful to simply wipe off the face of the map. It's outside your zone of control, and you don't have enough power to simply find it and wipe it out without metagaming.

I notice I've been dragged into this

And carefully shifted back out.

I noticed that as well

Except that you simply cannot tell there your enemies are there. That would be metagaming.

How do you know it's a haven for your enemies? Hate to tell you, but you have *no way of knowing* it's a haven for your enemies.

For all you know, a city state has been founded because there are nice surroundings. It's a *nice place to retire*, not a *enemy stronghold*. You can't just 'Oh, that's my enemy' at it, because it's not obviously an enemy. At all.

And it's not close at all. It's quite secluded, actually, and if retconned then it will have had plenty of time to establish itself as strong enough to survive any reasonable attempt at conquest.

Then the Three Lanterns change from being a mere secret society to a political force in hidden control of a large city state with a juggernaut of an intelligence organisation. And it will be retconned to be already too powerful to simply wipe off the face of the map. It's outside your zone of control, and you don't have enough power to simply find it and wipe it out without metagaming.

In fact, why not deny Alversia the opportunity to have land? Because you could oh-so-easily crush his lands with your army?Listen to tell you do not simply have the logistics to be capable of building right in my own backyard, also to tell my own intelligence is quite capable as I do keep track of it. To note you will not be able to hide an entire city as you are describing it if you maintain contact with the outside world and have it near my borders without metagaming yourself. Also, a fun note your nation can be just starved out by my forces and will not be able to resist a powerful exertion of my forces no matter how you put due to it being a very small state without the capabilties to fight on a large scale. To state you wanted to be a secret group and unless you want to change your status and want to lose a lot of your intelligence abilites within other nations you will have to either chose a small sancturay for your forces which will not arose suscipsion and can serve as a place where a couple hundred slaves can hide at a time. Remember there is a compromise of sorts for every state.

Then *you* have to compromise.

You have an enormous state, larger than any other, *and* you have the strongest army. You're also practically immune to corruption.

It's not your backyard. It's Outside Of Your Control Area.

And Why would it arouse suspicion? For all you know, it's a state which does not use slavery, and as such is not bothered by Three Lanterners at all. Other states which don't do slavery aren't bothered by the Three Lanterns, why should this one arouse more suspicion?

---

Besides which, what exactly are the rules on secret groups, beyond 'Whatever I say'?

Then *you* have to compromise.

You have an enormous state, larger than any other, *and* you have the strongest army.

It's not your backyard. It's Outside Of Your Control Area.

---

Besides which, what exactly are the rules on secret groups, beyond 'Whatever I say'?I have an army which is quite capable of striking out of my territory. Also, to state I have not yet attempted to use every advantage I have except with threats to use my forces to assist nations which have close relations with me.

The rules for secret groups I thought were just common sense, but you cannot write your own rules. So here are the rules which are essentially final: A secret organization cannot have large landholdings, there finincial abilties are quite limited to an extent far less then any nation, they cannot field large units, they cannot assainate rulers or their heirs without prior agreement of the person controlling their faction, they cannot win an open war by against an established faction, their will be disloyalty in the lower ranks like in any other faction, and they are suspectible to 'shadow' wars.

Sounds reasonable

Then I shall change it into a Small State With Fingers In Many Many Pies.

If I cannot act upon intel to an effective extent, then I'm forced to switch to a superpower of a merchant city-state with strong ties to the Three Lanterns, who are a powerful abolitionist force and are enormously powerful in covert operations.

They're changing from a covert secret society to something akin to the Zhentarim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhentarim) then.

Rest assured that they *will* have armies now, and they *will* retain an exceptionally strong intel department - still flavoured the same way - and will operate openly in some areas.

EDIT: Yes, the rules seem reasonable enough, but it compromises the entire strength of the Three Lanterns if they can't actually challenge a state.

A few matters, bear in mind I am trying to be neutral here.

First, my elfy friends....

All entrances to my territory are heavily wooded and there are only a few paths that could be negoitated safely without guidance. These areas are where an ambush would happen.

That's fair enough, ideally you'd want a strong garrison in those areas so that direct assault would fail.


And, actually, knowing the exact arc of the projectile will allow someone to hit a very small target from a distance away.
Yes, but what sort of distance? How accurately? What's a very small object? Apple-sized? melon sized?

My Archers are masters of stealth. The first thing your troops knew about their presence would be an arrow in their throat.

Riiight, so you expect to be able to fire a longbow from a distance in heavy terrain and accurately hit the throat of one of my soldiers?
That doesn't sound right to me.
My soldiers aren't the best in the land, that probably goes to, like, I don't know. Maybe Drekon or something, maybe Sparlu if they're still around.
However, my soldiers are raised from a very young age and given something like sixteen years to hone their skills before going off to battle, for the first ten years or so they mainly fight in barren and craggy wasteland and different levels of brush to forest (it is mentioned that siege and city fighting are not my strong points, likewise open combat is the strength of my nation.)
Now obviously my men couldn't sneak up on yours, infiltrate your territory or any of that, maybe a Criell Espent could...but since they are very rare that's unlikely.
However, my men can probably spot an ambush ahead and if they're invading they will be expecting an ambush, also the smaller Semshimistha such as Rahoom might spot an ambush, depending on the level of cover.
I'm not saying I'm immune to such a thing, as that is impossible, but I'm saying my army is good enough to expect an ambush and thus prepare countermeasures.


No matter how much training and discipline an Army has, there is always a breaking point where they can't take any more and will start to look after themselves only.

True, but what makes you think arrows can do anything like the sort of morale damage that it would take to do that?
Yes, they would be worrying, but my people deal with demons for god's sake! They risk being torn limbs from limb if they fail, if they succeed they are rewarded. They KNOW this, just like if a subordinate retreats without just cause they too will cut down their troops.
It is much like the Roman practice of decimation, except it is done in a more random number.

I know I could never hope to defeat an entire army with these tactics, but cause casualties and hope to demoralise them.

Well that's a relief, I'm not saying the action would be totally ineffective, just that you shouldn't expect ambushes and hit-and-run attacks to take a too heavy toll.


Now onto Hak/Valgard.

Really Scan, there's no basis for you to suspect a city state as being Three Lanterns supporters, granted you could have heard rumours or something, but you couldn't actually know.
It also makes sense that the Three Lanterns would have some centralised control, or operating over such a large area as Valgard would be almost impossible.
Granted a Valgardian merchant may recognise an escaped slave, but what are the chances he'll act on it and draw that conclusion, after all, humans are probably pretty alike to a Valgard, right?

EDIT: also, there's no reason he shouldn't have his own city state. The Three Lanterns have the power and the influence, I'm sure they could get the money and manpower to build it up, and after generations its no surprise they'd be large and populous.

1. After 150 years of training, they can hit an apple at 375 yards max. That is far enough away for my Archers to remain conceled from view but still remain accurate.

2. When I say the woods are heavily populated, I really mean it! The shrub is extremely thick and almost unpeneterable except in certain places. Unless your scouts have X-ray vision they'd never see my Archers until too late.

3. When I said your troops would be demoralised, I didn't mean by the Arrows themselves. Any soldier worth his pay expects arrows and knows to deal with them. What would demoralise them is the fact that nearly every arrow will find a target. Any soldier presenting a target is as good as hit.

As I have already stated, I could never destroy an entire army with these tactics. I would rather let you throw countless numbers against my fortress walls instead.

I think this arguement has gone on long enough, eh?

Can't we just say the Elves shoot at the army, the army continues on, but morally depleted?

sorry i was gone for 2 days, but im back!!!!

okay i got two things

1. Alversia as soon as you began hitting my army, my Uruk-Hai can run almost constantly day and night, they would simply keep runnig until your men collapsed and cut them to pieces.

2. Can i use sarumans crows?

1. But the main point is almost constantly. The lighter armoured archers will alway outrun the heavier infantryman. Plus, I'd doubt they could run day and night. Maybe, just maybe march quickly, but not run.

2. I personally have no problem with crows, as long as they are used within reason. Complicated communication networks, such as mine, serve a similar purpose, and the fact they double up as spies is esspecially nice. As long as they can't strip a man of his flesh within seconds.

1: well, they cant run all day i said almost., but it is shown that they can fast jog for a whole day.
2: they wont kill people at all, they will just be very fast.

god i screwed up that post lol

I'm happy to say my Archers will deplete numbers and morale but not defeat them.

In regards to the Uruk-Hai, My Archers are also very fast runners at the peak of physical fitness. With lighter armour and equipment, I'm sure they could keep ahead of your advancing troops.

OCC:Hey your online, by the way, im having trouble getting into the SW thread. and check this out, it is the perfect faction video for isengard.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Amk9G29fO-U

I want a helms deep like battle lol. im going to post in the ic threads soon.

OCC:Hey your online, by the way, im having trouble getting into the SW thread. and check this out, it is the perfect faction video for isengard.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Amk9G29fO-U

I want a helms deep like battle lol. im going to post in the ic threads soon.

Very good video-

hey, where should i post? theres like 4 threads

hey, where should i post? theres like 4 threads

Create your own

Here's my soldiers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrrTy-yA53Q

cool troops and im going to make a thread.

Who'll be attacking who?

i will be attacking you soon Alversia.

WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

What have I done to you?

i need the resources, unless you will work with me, but i need the forests.

Not a chance!

What sort of Army are you planning on committing to this war?

then......im sorry old friend.

what do you mean sort of army?

Mershka yo have to ask.

Numbers and composition of the Army you will be attacking little old me with

ph i plan on a campaighn with 3,000 and then plan on a 10,000 strong attack, and i will work my way up from there. it will mostly be uruk-hai and some humans(i need to rally soem of them first).

Where is your territory exactly in relation to mine?

im right next to you, to your left.

SO you have to go through the mountains to reach me?

ya, or i can go around.

Saruman: Alversia we must join.

You'll still have to cross my best defensive barrier, the River

And my nations name are the áthas Clans:

The Síocháin
The Láidir
The Urraim
The Comhcheol

wow, your best defence is a river? even if it is big, you dont have the forces to guard the length of the river.

I have my own scouts to tell me where you are crossing

I have the crows of saruman.

I have the various species of the Forests including various birds

so, i can persuade them with the all powerful voice of saruman.

Feck off!

You have your spies, I have mine.

And Saruman's voice cannot influence the lands of áthas

lol your mad.

I will meet you on the battlefield. The only real thing you have noticed is probably the smoke, saruman will come to your forest for diplomacy.

lol your mad.

I will meet you on the battlefield. The only real thing you have noticed is probably the smoke, saruman will come to your forest for diplomacy.

Oh ho no you won't! I'll meet you behind my fortress walls or in the forests of áthas.

Have you a thread for this yet?

yes its called the white hand(PT)

Found it!

i posted.

Right, we'll take the Eranor's emigration as said and done, so evidently now I'm dragged in too.

Expect the Vindicators to come running, with a number of other groups.

They'll provide, well, reinforcements, I guess.

Since I'm switching to a city state, expect reinforcements with heavier weaponry and a proper army to show up at some point.

On my side's or NC's?

Yours, of course!

Who would be mad enough to attack their own kin? (Remember that the Eranor have close links with the Vindicators, and are thus by extension closely allied with the Three Lanterns)

What do you mean a 'proper army'? :p

Well, since I'm switching to a city state, I now have access to a *real* army, and not just irregular forces.

You know, with handy things to use against large formations of troops like mangonels loaded with lots of flasks of Alchemist's Fire, and slingers launching those same flaming oil projectiles.

The Three Lanterns are somewhat relegated to irregulars and espionage, but will probably move into the domain of commandos.

I see

Look, Al, it's nothing personal but I'm trying to get this straightened out.

1. After 150 years of training, they can hit an apple at 375 yards max. That is far enough away for my Archers to remain conceled from view but still remain accurate.

No it isn't!
I don't care how much training you've had, a bow just isn't accurate to that range.
I have my own Semshimistha archers, some Espent practice the craft, and they easily live as long as Elves, however I don't make such a flawed claim as this...why do you think that is?
Because bows just aren't that accurate, most good bows are only really effective/accurate to one-hundred metres with a maximum range of maybe five-hundred metres if accuracy and penetration aren't problems.
For low-quality bows this figure is probably a lot lower.
I assume you do have good bows, maybe due to the fantasy setting you could give a slight bit, a few dozen yards maybe.
However, you're claiming accuracy that is several times that of the weapons, which is sheerly impossible.

The problem is that people watch Lord of the Rings and think that is how it is, or hear about battles like Agincourt and assume that they are the rule.

2. When I say the woods are heavily populated, I really mean it! The shrub is extremely thick and almost unpeneterable except in certain places. Unless your scouts have X-ray vision they'd never see my Archers until too late.


I see.
And you claim to be able to shoot through this stuff, and accurately?

3. When I said your troops would be demoralised, I didn't mean by the Arrows themselves. Any soldier worth his pay expects arrows and knows to deal with them. What would demoralise them is the fact that nearly every arrow will find a target. Any soldier presenting a target is as good as hit.

Hit does not mean dead and as I have said, if you're close enough to aim that well then I can probably hit you no-sweat.
You see, the beauty of the crossbow is that it's a nice KISS weapon, simple and effective, slow maybe, but it takes merely weeks or months to master the crossbow, it takes decades to master the bow.
Given a few years of experience with crossbows, a decade in some cases, my soldiers should be able to match yours in accuracy, simply by virtue of an easier to use weapon, granted rate of fire is decreased by a factor of five or so in most cases.

As I have already stated, I could never destroy an entire army with these tactics. I would rather let you throw countless numbers against my fortress walls instead.

I'm not disputing your ability to do damage, I'm disputing the abilities of your archers who seem a little too good, also throwing numbers against walls is the stupidest move one can make, unless a quick taking is absolutely vital I'm more inclined to sit back and let your positions starve, of course that does take months at the least.

Alright, Uldarious, since you seem to be the realism evaluator here, let me bounce off an idea for my full military and how it would work on a battlefield dynamic.

How would a force of slingers that launch glass spheres filled with a self-igniting napalm-like substance work on the battlefield? I'm thinking of using them as a volley-firing type force, and hailing down glass spheres filled with napalm on enemy ranks.

How effective do you reckon it would be on morale? What about as a method of actually inflicting casualties? Being Horribly Burned must be bad for morale, and if you're the one being Horribly Burned you're not likely to be able to keep on fighting.

Also: How do you reckon this will synergise with crossbows? I mean, the obvious defence to these slingers launching glass spheres with napalm would be to raise shields, so would this improve the danger factor of crossbows, because they can't present shields to the crossbowmen anymore?

What if I used acid?

lol no ones online except for me buddy.

Uldarious

The claim of 375yards wasn't pulled out of thin air y'know. My troops use mongul bows and according to Wikipedia, their maximum range is 350 yards if well built and maintained (which mine are)
The points is conceded though. 105yards is the maximum range at which I could accurately hit an enemy soldier.
With regards to an ambush, it won't be a drawn out affair. My Archers'll fire one volley and retreat back into the forests. To follow them would be to suffer heavy losses from further ambushes or from the various creatures that dwell in the forests.

Alright, Uldarious, since you seem to be the realism evaluator here, let me bounce off an idea for my full military and how it would work on a battlefield dynamic.

How would a force of slingers that launch glass spheres filled with a self-igniting napalm-like substance work on the battlefield? I'm thinking of using them as a volley-firing type force, and hailing down glass spheres filled with napalm on enemy ranks.

How effective do you reckon it would be on morale? What about as a method of actually inflicting casualties? Being Horribly Burned must be bad for morale, and if you're the one being Horribly Burned you're not likely to be able to keep on fighting.

Also: How do you reckon this will synergise with crossbows? I mean, the obvious defence to these slingers launching glass spheres with napalm would be to raise shields, so would this improve the danger factor of crossbows, because they can't present shields to the crossbowmen anymore?

What if I used acid?

EDIT: Some points relate to potential scaled-up versions to catapult size.

Weeeellll it's hard because there's not much of a historical parallel.
I'd say such a weapon isn't likely to kill people, but they'd wish they were dead after it was through with them.
Such a weapon is also likely to damage morale as flying glass and fire is not going to be pretty, and even professional soldiers are probably unused to it, but I'd say morale damage would be limited to the effected units.
Of course, maybe after protracted warfare the initial morale shock would wear off...but it'd still be nice tricky area effect weapon.

I think this is best not as a morale killer, because really it's effects would be like a pot of burning oil hurled into the ranks, just a lil' more nasty.
I'd say it would better be used for injuring large amounts of soldiers and keeping an enemy force on the defensive.


Such a weapon is likely to take a while to produce, even with the aid of an alchemy guild or some-such, so to be fair you'd have a limited number of them, albeit a rather substantial one (y'know, in the upper hundreds, maybe a thousand for slinger-launched ones, lower-hundreds for catapult launched, as you're a city state with limited production capacity, but quite a large one.)

I'd see the weapon as something you'd want to keep secret, like a wonder weapon to pull out if a much larger force attacks, because it is unconventional and would take a while to deal with.

However, if the enemy locks shields in a Roman army kind of way you're unlikely to get through, as unlike an actual catapult rock these things probably won't have a lot of "umph" or kinetic energy, but since this is like napalm I'm saying that the soldiers would want to be getting rid of their shields pretty quick, that is, before they catch fire.

Ideally you'd want it to explode above the enemy troops, if you can manage it, because then they're dealing with a lot of glass daggers and a nice spread-out sheet of flame, even if it doesn't hurt morale it'll certainly hurt all but the most armoured men and beasts.

That being said you'd want to have both standard rocks and these weapons, as a mix of the two should break up enemy ranks considerably better and thus enable the effects of these glass napalm bombs to be felt more strongly. Bear in mind that Wecca does use similar weapons, so you could RP that you stole some of the technology from him or something like that.

I hate to say it, but you'll have to ask Scan how legit this weapon is for this RP, don't expect it to be a miracle turnaround weapon, but it could provide a tricky new weapon to get out of a rough spot.

On the subject of acid...

This would both be more and less effective, if its some sort of fantasy super acid gathered from the jaws of some ungodly beast, then yes it would be a good idea as it's like to eat into whatever the limits of its strength are, but could potentially get through the thickest of plate...but that might be a little bit unrealistic and I'd be inclined to say no.

For a real life acid I'd recommend Hydrofluoric acid, it's a mean acid that will, quite frankly, mess you up.

Get enough on people and well...unpleasant stuff begins to happen, deep tissue is damaged with little apparent damage to out tissues and the bodes themselves will decompose, this won't happen immediately but it will eat into metal or glass pretty fast, so you'd need like, a wax or something on the inside of the glass spheres.

If you want to know more I'd google it, but suffice to say it'd be rather potent, the downside is that it'd be extremely hard to use for yourself and manufacture, so it'd be a rare weapon, but you asked for an acid...

I think I've covered the main points...

To summarise:
Pros:
*High initial morale damage/spreads confusion among enemy ranks.
*Has the potential to hurt/injure/debilitate comparatively large numbers of men for its size.
*May cause men to discard armour and shields that are effected.

Cons:
*Won't break up formations like a solid rocky projectile due to lower mass.
*Likely to be costly and requires intensive infrastructure for production.
*Different ballistics to solid objects, hard to handle*
* May cause collateral damage**
* May be ineffective against shields of heat-resistant wood.

*You don't want one of these to shatter when loading*
** That is, set fire to terrain, which is bad if you're on the defensive**

Anything else? It's your call on whether you want to use these and my points are open to argument if you think I'm wrong and Scan might have a problem with these weapons due to their relatively higher technology, but I don't see why they'd be practically infeasible.

Uldarious

The claim of 375yards wasn't pulled out of thin air y'know. My troops use mongul bows and according to Wikipedia, their maximum range is 350 yards if well built and maintained (which mine are)
The points is conceded though. 105yards is the maximum range at which I could accurately hit an enemy soldier.
With regards to an ambush, it won't be a drawn out affair. My Archers'll fire one volley and retreat back into the forests. To follow them would be to suffer heavy losses from further ambushes or from the various creatures that dwell in the forests.

I know, most people don't pull stuff out of nowhere it usually comes from misinterpreting data, hell, I do it too.
But as I said, difference between maximum range and maximum effective range, I'm glad you see my point.
Having said that the rest is pretty clear.

Glad we've finally agreed on this.
370yards maximum range, when accuracy not an issue
105yards maximum range for accurate shots

Uldarious, Carloginias, Ezaltia, and Zhyolatska all have rampaging Moors on their shores...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=530940

Actually, Hak, I've got very similar weapons in my force. The deliverance is different, as yours are glass spheres and mine are ceramic pots. The latter was actually used in history. Using the fantasy format, it should be possible.

And just a point, if the actual acid/flammable is liquid, it would be able to bypass most types of armour. It can seep though the holes in the armour, you see.

Sure, I could use historical ceramic pots with burning pitch, but with alchemy and magic lying around, glass spheres filled with napalm aren't too much more of a stretch, and does wonders for differentiating my glass-sphere-flinging guys from your ceramic pots, no?

Well, with the scaled up catapult versions I'd be more likely to use them as a few hundred glass spheres loaded into a mangonel type constructon to pelt them over a relatively shorter distance to cover as much ground as possible, instead of one great big fragile napalm bomb which could just as easily smash if dropped accidentally.

Which is a problem for smaller ones, but it's easier not to drop a little glass sphere a bit larger than your fist than one giant one it takes five people to lift. Not to mention not quite so catastrophic when you do inevitably drop one.

And they'll have rocks, too, as per Uldarious' suggestions.

---

@Scand: Still waiting on you to add my territory, now that I'm swapping to city-state supporting large 'secret' (note addition of apostrophes) organisation.

A 1:2378 ratio just isn't enough to get any of the things I want out of the Three Lanterns.

Sure, I could use historical ceramic pots with burning pitch, but with alchemy and magic lying around, glass spheres filled with napalm aren't too much more of a stretch, and does wonders for differentiating my glass-sphere-flinging guys from your ceramic pots, no?

Well, with the scaled up catapult versions I'd be more likely to use them as a few hundred glass spheres loaded into a mangonel type constructon to pelt them over a relatively shorter distance to cover as much ground as possible, instead of one great big fragile napalm bomb which could just as easily smash if dropped accidentally.

Which is a problem for smaller ones, but it's easier not to drop a little glass sphere a bit larger than your fist than one giant one it takes five people to lift. Not to mention not quite so catastrophic when you do inevitably drop one.

And they'll have rocks, too, as per Uldarious' suggestions.

---

@Scand: Still waiting on you to add my territory, now that I'm swapping to city-state supporting large 'secret' (note addition of apostrophes) organisation.

A 1:2378 ratio just isn't enough to get any of the things I want out of the Three Lanterns.You can have catapults sure, but the size of a load for a pretty dang big one would be at most a couple dozen as hundreds is not very realistic in terms of them having to be like beads then and would be weak no matter how you put it.

As for it being like napalm let is be more like Greek Fire, an early form of napalm if you would, but weaker.

As for the city can you tell me where yoy spefcially want it to be?

As I said before, that little nook thingy east of Valgard, in the mountains.

And yeah, dozens sounds about right. A mangonel with a special basket. A few hundreds would maybe be the load of ammunition carried, I suppose. Self Igniting Greek Fire sounds like an apt comparison. It still gets a good spread, and if someone raises a shield it'll splatter everywhere and cause more horrid burning.

Uldarious, Carloginias, Ezaltia, and Zhyolatska all have rampaging Moors on their shores...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=530940


How? if I can quote you? you haven't even raised a finger against me? to quote:
"In addition, Byzoji((nation name for PT)) mountain fortresses were taken by surprise when refugees came streaming from areas around the river."

nothing about moors attacking >_>

Also, I'm unsure as to whether or not to even post that Ionnais rebellion thread.

On one hand it's a nice way to get things going, on the other, I'm surrounded by a bunch of seemingly mighty unbeatable nations who don't really need trade with me and whose troops can rip me to shreds <_<

But regardless, to the moors: We don't have many mountain fortresses, we have some fortified cities in the mountains which function as focal points for the client tribes. But mostly it's tribesmen. It all depends on which mountains you're speaking of however.

Zhy, you're a trade empire, you're not a militant nation like myself and Wecca, it makes sense you're not top-notch, but you'd be rich and thus able to hire mercenaries.
Hell, if you want I could RP a Semshimsitha mercenary company in your nation to help with border defence.
Hell, the best thing about Mercs is that for a rich nation like you you might be able to surpass the 5% limit, because you don't actually have to support or equip mercs.

Alversia:
If some of your men were longbowmen you could probably increase this to 500 metres maximum range, accuracy wouldn't be so hot as it'd be the same and the weapons would probably be too large for ambush, but for field-battle and defence they'd be a treat.

Moorington:
Aren't you a little small to be launching a unilateral war on everything?
Not to mention your post about is unbelievably godmodded and ignores the basic fact that your attacking one of the most warlike nations around.
Kiishra usually dwell in a fortress and every Kiishra has tens of thousands of humans to call upon, most Kiishra would have armies larger than your enitre military force.
My army is larger than your population for gods sake, not to mention I only have a very small coastline that is watched over, not to mentioned the mutant beasts such as Jikeel that dwell in harbours and so forth.
I don't have a problem with you foolishly attacking me, because a loss is almost inevitable, you have no advantages over me except maybe equipment of the average soldier as I am larger, have knowledge of the terrain, have more ranged power, have superior logistical support, how a greater variety of forces, advantages of defences, hell I even know what the conditions of the battlefields will be like and the local water currents, all of which you do not have..
Just tell me HOW you thought to attack a large warlike nation like myself and get away with it? I'm not some sleepy town of friendly giants you can just attack, half of the Kiishra expect to be ambushed and raided the other half know they will. (exaggeration, but you get the idea)

Alversia:
If some of your men were longbowmen you could probably increase this to 500 metres maximum range, accuracy wouldn't be so hot as it'd be the same and the weapons would probably be too large for ambush, but for field-battle and defence they'd be a treat.


Right then, Field Troops carry longbows, Forest Rangers carry Mongol Bows

I think I'll jump into Moorington's little war, and see if I can't show off the Three Lanterns' strength.

I'm not a trade empire though, which is the problem, It seems difficult to establish any sort of control over trade when everyone has pretty much similar resources, I would have thought my central location would allow me to be the crucial point between and east and west, the proverbial Byzantion, but it seems that happens regardless of my presence. To quote you Uldarious

"you can find everything you need in the markets of Mishrael" In regards to trade, makes it somewhat difficult to compete as a trade nation when military nations are both military and trade as well.

Forgive me if I sound rude or whiny, I'm afraid I must be off to bed.

Say, Weccanfield, do you reckon normal swamp-dwelling lizardfolk would be able to pass themselves off as Ligbrynians to an untrained eye?

Zhy, I was referring to the fact that trading is rather unpoliced and I was talking figuratively, by anything I meant anything as in anything illegal in other nations, from the perverse such as sex-slaves to the exotic such as narcotic seeds, I assume that other nations would be trading there.
You yourself can have a market there, as I believe I said many Semshimistha would be interested in some of your services but in general there are things like spices and rare materials like silk that some of the richer Sahadar would desire that you could sell, if you really want I could make a list of luxury items for you to supply me with.

Say, Weccanfield, do you reckon normal swamp-dwelling lizardfolk would be able to pass themselves off as Ligbrynians to an untrained eye?

Not if they went unprepared. I think the main differences are horns, deeper voices, and spiney backs. Not hard to replicate though.

Although if you walked around as a bog standard swampblood in a lizardfolk city you wouldn't get too much bother. Just as long as you don't openly declare your intentions. Think of it as the planet of the robots off Futurama, only serious, no daily human hunts and whatnot.

And Uldarious, it dosen't matter much, it's just a bit of a scrap.

Your allowed that much if you want, you know. They're aren't really any limits. And he's only got 30 million.

What's this about exactly?

Your allowed that much if you want, you know. They're aren't really any limits. And he's only got 30 million.

Well, I'm just asking for the limits of reality, and maybe some more creativity other than 'I'm invincible n00b.'

Well, he said each Krisha has 'millions' with him. With 200 Kriisha's, and lets say 100 are babies or something, that is at least 3 million x 100 which equals 300 million. A tad off, eh?

What's this about exactly?

Oh, I said I attacked him, he got mad and said I'm godmodding because I managed to attack, or something like that.

Oh, I said I attacked him, he got mad and said I'm godmodding because I managed to attack, or something like that.

:confused:

How DID you attack him? Just curious

Your allowed that much if you want, you know. They're aren't really any limits. And he's only got 30 million.

Thanks for pointing that out; I read millions when it only said thousands.

Most of my other stuff about him having invincible goalithas still stands, but that point is obviously moot with the no limits law.

:confused:

How DID you attack him? Just curious

It was a largely small paragraph, but basically from the sea.

It was a largely small paragraph, but basically from the sea.

What's wrong with that?

Bad place to say this, but I will be throwing up my FB for MW soon. Got economics/population figured out.

So Moorington, are we just assuming that you swept away all the naval forces defending my coastlines?

So Moorington, are we just assuming that you swept away all the naval forces defending my coastlines?

Nein, actually, we're assuming my forces raid, do some pillaging ect al. Then your forces get into high gear and attack me.

What's wrong with that?

Because I forgot to mention his legions of crazy underwater destroy everything that moves Elementals and that all of his forces would be arrayed against mine even though they had no idea I existed.

oh

No...Moorington, no.
Don't put words in my mouth and you're argument is unbelievably biased and non-factual.

I'll explain this.

I said each Kiishra has thousands of humans under them, this is true, my human population = 24 million.
With two-hundred Kiishra that means a hundred and twenty thousand humans to each Kiishra, of course this isn't exactly correct as the ratio is a bit off, some have more, some have less.
Any flaw in the logic there?
BTW there ARE limits, and quite a few at that, but take a look at Scan and Carloginas and Wecca and you'll see that we're just big nations.

Oh, I said I attacked him, he got mad and said I'm godmodding because I managed to attack, or something like that.

Huh?
I said you godmodded because you listed my losses, and completely ignored the nature of my nation, I'd say a similar thign if you claimed the same with Scan or Wecca or another large and militaristic nation.

I'll quote the select passage...

On the tenth day Uldarious Kiishra awaken to the happy pillaging and raping of their servants quarters. While their spirit and strength was many times greater than a single Moor, the vast quantity and surprise of the attack was too much. Weaponless, cut off from their lower minions, and faced for what could be said their first military encounter, it was butcher. It quickly became obvious to the Moors that siege weapons were the most effective, and that lesson, as the great Kiishra knocked aside swords and spear with ease, right before being shot through the heart by a ballista, did not go un-heeded.

THAT, my friend, is godmode.
Why? Because somehow your forces are just there, ignoring all my defences and my much larger army and somehow you've taken me unaware in a society that kills off the weak and foolish.
Somehow you've gone unnoticed through hostile terrain you've never seen.
Somehow you've overpowered me without a fight.
You had access to the factbooks, so this information is certainly nothing new to you.

This was my reply...

Moorington:
Aren't you a little small to be launching a unilateral war on everything?
Not to mention your post about is unbelievably godmodded and ignores the basic fact that your attacking one of the most warlike nations around.
Kiishra usually dwell in a fortress and every Kiishra has tens of thousands of humans to call upon, most Kiishra would have armies larger than your enitre military force.

My army is larger than your population for gods sake, not to mention I only have a very small coastline that is watched over, not to mentioned the mutant beasts such as Jikeel that dwell in harbours and so forth.

I don't have a problem with you foolishly attacking me, because a loss is almost inevitable, you have no advantages over me except maybe equipment of the average soldier as I am larger, have knowledge of the terrain, have more ranged power, have superior logistical support, how a greater variety of forces, advantages of defences, hell I even know what the conditions of the battlefields will be like and the local water currents, all of which you do not have..

Just tell me HOW you thought to attack a large warlike nation like myself and get away with it? I'm not some sleepy town of friendly giants you can just attack, half of the Kiishra expect to be ambushed and raided the other half know they will. (exaggeration, but you get the idea)

Where did I say I was invincible? What is unreasonable there? Most of that makes sense, it'd be like if North Korea tried to attack China or something...

Because I forgot to mention his legions of crazy underwater destroy everything that moves Elementals and that all of his forces would be arrayed against mine even though they had no idea I existed.


Legions? I made a specific point that Jikeel are rare, but that is something YOU would not have known would exist and would probably have trouble with.
Considering you were attacking four other nations with an army of less than forty thousand, that'd less than ten thousand men each nation, so any Kiishra you'd attack would roughly equal your numbers.

Did I say all my forces would be arrayed against yours? No, I didn't, in fact I've made specific points that my entire army couldn't be arrayed anywhere due to the fact that garrisons are required at fortresses and are required to keep the newer and unruly slaves in order.

Granted my reply was very arrogant, but your original post was clearly a god mode according to the first II definition of it....

Saying what happens to other people's stuff.

This is allowed if agreed upon before hand, or to streamline posting but aside from that...

Anyone disagree with me?

Snippet

First off, what really sprang up at me was that you mentioned you had to keep your 'unruly slaves' in line; yet the turn around and say they'll fight for you. I dunno, if I was a slave, and saw some humans attacking, I wouldn't die for some weird dragon fellow, instead, I'd try to get my chance at freedom.

Secondly, you seem to be the only person having a issue with a little suprise attack, I captured a handful of monastaries from Weccanfield, pillaged some fishing villages from this guy, a few from that guy, everybody is getting with the whole idea. Yet you seem to caught up in not having your amazing rip off of Greek Mythology being taken into account.

A few excerpts....


Combine the ability to regenerate horrific wounds and strength that surpasses that of a wild bull coupled with a hide that can shrug off sword blows and arrow strikes.

their flesh can be pierced... without a great deal of ease.

his strength simply too great to challenge, his home simply too impenetrable.

No, I was wrong to call them invincible, just really-really-really-really hard to kill.

I doubt all of your Kriisha's army will just happen to be exactly where my forces are, eh? Unless, of course, you're often raided by water borne forces; if for some reason you're not, I would suspect most of them would be looking at you land borders, farming, scouting around; so the odds would not be so outlandish as we all first thought.

If you really want a reason for why I ignored your Jikeel, it is merely because it took out a few vanguard ships, so we decided going that way would be a lot worse then stopping then, and ground pounding it until we ran into something.

A little after that, the Moors see, if not a relaxed, then at least not so eager, Kriisha at his summer retreat near the coast. After a few initial confrontations, we get the help of your vastly larger human slave POP as they see a differant alternative to being treated as dirt.

As for my post, what, exactly isn't true there? Your forces are cut off, caught without adequate supplies, unless you're telling me these people often horde supplies in every location for a siege in the middle of their country, and generally speaking, not ready for an attack on that scale. I just merely skipped to the final outcome, of course, if you want to RP my victory in more depth, that's fine.

Anyhow, I guess the bottom line is that you feel 'godmodded' on because one of 200 of your amazing guys have been killed, that one little bit of land in a country several times my own has been taken, and that I didn't try to blast my way past your Kraken. All in all, it seems your making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

Alright, Weccan I need your post on colonization of the new straits of Carloginias (Hee hee, will be.)

And Scan can I use Sea Dragons in my Navy to form auxillary and give me something to do in the "White Hand" thread? So i can speedily get over to the east.

Where would this be?

You see your western port on the map? And look due west from there to a narrow inlet that will let me control your trade in the west.

I mean where's the post?

Its the one where you began colonization.

Ah, of course.

But what do you mean? What post are you after?

You said it might interest me to see you colonize the straits.. I mean if your not there I will just colonize them myself in an IC post.

Posted.

First off, what really sprang up at me was that you mentioned you had to keep your 'unruly slaves' in line; yet the turn around and say they'll fight for you. I dunno, if I was a slave, and saw some humans attacking, I wouldn't die for some weird dragon fellow, instead, I'd try to get my chance at freedom.

Wecca is the dragons, I'm demons.
I mean that the newer slaves are unruly, this drops off over time as they begin to accept their fate as the doomed weaker species and see the only effective way forward as to become stronger themselves, remember the philosophy of the Semshimistha is survival of the strongest and most cunning, this applies to humans as well.
Quite frankly most of the Plest-Nain are chosen from a very young age to be warriors, so by the time they see action they don't really even associate themselves as human, just as Sahadar don't see themselves as really human.
My armies are not merely drawn from slaves here-and-there, a breeding human pair will likely have between three and eight children over their life, with maybe four surviving to adulthood.

Secondly, you seem to be the only person having a issue with a little suprise attack, I captured a handful of monastaries from Weccanfield, pillaged some fishing villages from this guy, a few from that guy, everybody is getting with the whole idea. Yet you seem to caught up in not having your amazing rip off of Greek Mythology being taken into account.

Because you godmodded, you didn't make any posts with the intention to attack or preparation, you didn't say an area you were attacking and you assumed the battle would go that way and moreover you don't even know anything of the Kiishra lord you'd be attacking.

Moreover you posted what happened to me, saying, and I quote, "On the tenth day Uldarious Kiishra awaken to the happy pillaging and raping of their servants quarters," and "it was butcher."

It would be like if I posted "and on the tenth day an unknown enemy attacking and was swiftly driven into the sea and slaughtered, outnumbered and tired from their journey they stood no chance despite their thick armour and military training."

What ahppens is for me to decide, if I choose to take too few losses you can always call me on it, because that would also be a godmode, but what you posted flies in the face of a army invading a much larger and warlike nation with a small coastline.

No, I was wrong to call them invincible, just really-really-really-really hard to kill.

I doubt all of your Kriisha's army will just happen to be exactly where my forces are, eh? Unless, of course, you're often raided by water borne forces; if for some reason you're not, I would suspect most of them would be looking at you land borders, farming, scouting around; so the odds would not be so outlandish as we all first thought.

You don't know what you're talking about.
Kiishra by nature do not move in armies, there simply aren't enough, there's around two-hundred and each one is like a feudal lord, they are as it says in my factbook, the pinnacle of Semshimistha evolution.
However they do have other Semshimistha and humans in their service, who form their armies, why do they follow? Because success in battle strengthens oneself and raises the prestige.

If you really want a reason for why I ignored your Jikeel, it is merely because it took out a few vanguard ships, so we decided going that way would be a lot worse then stopping then, and ground pounding it until we ran into something.

Right...I could buy that if it was mentioned in your post.

A little after that, the Moors see, if not a relaxed, then at least not so eager, Kriisha at his summer retreat near the coast. After a few initial confrontations, we get the help of your vastly larger human slave POP as they see a differant alternative to being treated as dirt.

Impossible.
It is my nation to decide whether you do or do not get the help of my populous and I say no, that is reason enough but so you understand I'll explain.

By this stage the majority of the human populous has been assimilated into Semshimistha, those that aren't blood-bonded like Sahadar still don't even see themselves as humans, they see themselves as Flest, the lowest of the low and with success in or service as the only way out.

However, they also believe other humans are even lower than them, because Flest are also bred by the Semshimistha to be better, so they wouldn't associate with the Moors, maybe the Dragonkind as they are an honoured and respected enemy for many generations, but certainly not unknown 'savages' from across the sea.

Moreover Kiishra do not have 'summer retreats', they engage in leisure activities such as hunts and watching the combat of their minions, but they don't ever let their guard done, or they die. It is as simple as that, any Kiishra that was stupid enough to have done so would have been killed long before you ever got to them.
Granted Kiishra do move between fortresses, but they are just that, fortresses.

As for my post, what, exactly isn't true there? Your forces are cut off, caught without adequate supplies,

What are you talking about? I didn't even post the movement of forces so they cannot be 'cut off,' if you want to make an assumption like that check my Internal Affairs thread, because that's where I'd post the movement of forces.
Moreover my army has been fighting long enough to know how to run a supply operation.

unless you're telling me these people often horde supplies in every location for a siege in the middle of their country, and generally speaking, not ready for an attack on that scale. I just merely skipped to the final outcome, of course, if you want to RP my victory in more depth, that's fine.

What I am saying is remove that from your post, because it didn't happen, because it wouldn't have happened.
I'll say again so you get it, I decide what happens to my nation, you can't say my populous is rebelling, without my say-so, you can't say you caught a Kiishra napping, without my say-so or at least a IC ground for the statement, and you can't damn say you've won a victory over me without a thread or post that I can reply to.
If I don't admit defeat when I have been out manoeuvred, you can call me on it, if I don't take losses when I should, you can call me on it, but there's no way you can land a force and just attack me and kill on of my nobility, while he is inside one of his fortresses.

Anyhow, I guess the bottom line is that you feel 'godmodded' on because one of 200 of your amazing guys have been killed, that one little bit of land in a country several times my own has been taken, and that I didn't try to blast my way past your Kraken. All in all, it seems your making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

The bottom line is that you did godmode, your behaviour meets the definition of godmoding as you were saying what happens to my stuff and it is listed in the stickies that this is godmodding.
You're the one who can't admit they made a mistake and didn't think about their actions.

I am not squeamish about losses, I'm supposed to be the bad guys, the evil empire, I expect to lose out in the end and lose all my nation to a comparatively 'good' nation like Valgard or Carlo or Wecca.
However the reason my Kiishra are so strong is because they are 'special' characters, the entire point of them is not to see combat until a last stand where they go crazy and kill a few dozen men, or if they are a hero choice for one of my rp's.
What upsets me is that you're trying to say what happened in my nation, when quite frankly there's no reason for you to know anything about my nation as this is first contact, so you wouldn't even know where or how many fortresses I had or how many men were in them.

You didn't even post how many men you were using, but to effectively undermine a defence like you did you'd need something like five times as many attackers as defenders, probably more given your lack of ranged strength and it would take a while to scout as you are primarily heavy infantry.

I'm going to say this again so you get it, because there seems to be some sort of communication problem here, remove that section from my post because it could not have happened the way you said it did.
I have no problem with you raiding a coastal town, or even beating me in limited combat, when it makes sense you'd win or the outcome would be dubious, but consult me first damn it so you at least get your facts right.

EDIT:

Actually, re-reading your post I am surprised Drekon and Carloginias haven't objected, as you did a similar thing with them, maybe they just don't care, but I do and I am calling you on it.

Heck, if I wanted to sway slaves of the Semshimistha I'd probably start by sieging and eliminating the Kiishra in question first, then I'd try to convince the slaves that it was worth giving freedom a shot.

Ie. "We've killed your master. You follow us now." and go on from there, reconditioning them to enjoy non-slave life.

But yeah, if you want to catch a Kiishra 'sunning himself', rally the slaves and kill him to pieces, then you have to RP it out.

More importantly, if you decide to actually *attack* a Kiishra's fortress, then you'd expect that Kiishra's army to actually be there, no? Well, unless you've baited it off somewhere, but cunning tricks like that need to be RP'd. As with all cunning tricks.

If I want to catch one napping, I have to RP espionage to find such an appropriate moment, or create one myself. Maybe create some sort of event which requires the attention of the Kiishra or his army, or go in under false pretenses, etc. Heck, with your idea of 'finding one who isn't as cautious', I'd need to go in and do espionage to figure out which one has the flaw I wish to take advantage of.

Hak has the right idea, O' course he is the king of espionage.

To state Uldarious has the right point you cannot simply say I am attacking you and have begun to go into your lands and conquer them while ignoring any possible counter attack up to this point.

It would be better if you said,"

As the tides of midnight ruled in, as did come the Crimson fleets. The first transport ships rowed to shorse as quietly as possible so as to avoid detection until the last possible second so as to give them the largest advantage possible. etc Uldarious makes his response now"

Thank you very much Scan.

I hope that settles the matter.

Thank you very much Scan.

I hope that settles the matter.Thank you for being an instrument of my will.:p

As well, I do tend to compromise, though to note usually when you attack you only get to choose the first battle site,if you are lucky, yet neither the time the enemy attacks nor if they even choose to fight.

Actually, re-reading your post I am surprised Drekon and Carloginias haven't objected, as you did a similar thing with them, maybe they just don't care, but I do and I am calling you on it.

If something bad occurs from it, I will call you on it. Bottom line. Otherwise I'm not too picky. I do agree with Uldarious about his populations.. they are under the iron fists of his overlords and I believe in some sort of blood bond to Sandar? Something of the sort. I haven't been reading up on it lately.

Yep, and such things aren't unheard of.
Stalinist Russia for example and several periods of China's history, the ruling classes were brutal and abused their power, yet it took centuries for them to be overthrown.
In my case the people are actually ruled by superior beings and the people themselves are bred and raised to dissociate themselves with other people and work hard for the benefits it earns, after a while it just wears them down.
Would this happen in reality? Maybe, maybe not.

But as far as things go its not too bad for a fantasy world.

Say, Scand, what's your opinions on ultimatums from inactivity? How long do we have to wait if someone's not responding before we can just RP out a victory?

sorry ive been late, ive been busy with other things.

Ah, okay.

Well, you have until this time tomorrow to get a post up for the white hand thread.

lol okay

Say, Scand, what's your opinions on ultimatums from inactivity? How long do we have to wait if someone's not responding before we can just RP out a victory?That depends as if the person is totally inactive then it makes the thread essentially over. As well, if the person is active then they should be informed and if they are no longer active there after they are notified then the thread is deactivated and no one wins.

The trouble is that sometimes you have characters and significant forces tied up in a stalled battle - it makes no sense to simply 'end' it.

At any rate, I've informed NC that he has until tomorrow to respond, or I'll RP a total victory in the battle and return my characters to what they were going to do after the battle was resolved.

Had fun over the weekend going to Catalina Island, basically a desert island vacationing thing, and just got back. Tired, but wanted everyone to know the rather irritating entity we call Moorington is still alive.

sorry you guys,im on a slow computer so i wont be able to post, when i get back i will post immediatly.

Weccan, my troops have the high ground. I'm not meeting you in open battle when you out number me 3:1.

okay im back and i will post, please bump

Hmm, I'm assuming that most of you haven't noticed Scan's recent lack of activity.
Guess it must be personal, or something, but he is supposed to be the dominant power 'round here...Like to maybe see some suggestion of this soon, y'know.

The trouble is that sometimes you have characters and significant forces tied up in a stalled battle - it makes no sense to simply 'end' it.

At any rate, I've informed NC that he has until tomorrow to respond, or I'll RP a total victory in the battle and return my characters to what they were going to do after the battle was resolved.Alright, as without a leader the Uruks will most likely fail due to their lack of self displine.

Weccan, my troops have the high ground. I'm not meeting you in open battle when you out number me 3:1.

Just presume that they exited the forts to get away from the bombardment. That was my oridginal reason for such a action.

I propose we just concentrate on Leand Vs. Faistian for now.

Things are quiet round here...

Too quiet...

Seriously, where is everybody?

I'm...not sure, seriously, I have a friend down so I can't really post for a few days but...everyone else?

well I'm just waiting for someone else to do something.

I'll get a post up soon.

well I'm just waiting for someone else to do something.

Weren't you writing up that diplomacy thread?

Oh, never mind, I'll do it myself.

Weren't you writing up that diplomacy thread?

Oh, never mind, I'll do it myself.

Yes I was but then the whole thing with Moorington happened and I figured it would be even better if our allince came from that.

Hmm, good point. I suppose we'll have to wait a bit so you make progress. Where is Moorington these days? I seem to remember him being unable to post, but until when?

I was a bit worried that the rp had died, but it seems we've managed to defibrillate this rp, if it was.

Moorington said he was back, he should be able to post now.
Indeed, I would be interested in him coming back because he still has to remove that section from the opening post of "Dawn of True Civilisation" that relates to me.

im having hellla trouble posting, because something big is going to happen.

Moorington said he was back, he should be able to post now.
Indeed, I would be interested in him coming back because he still has to remove that section from the opening post of "Dawn of True Civilisation" that relates to me.


Ah, right.

Don't forget about 'A savage land' though. I'm eager to see what your audience is about.

Gee, thanks Wecca I actually forgot about that :(

Uh guys, y'all still here and around and stuff? Not seein' a lotta action...?

Well, I'm around at least.

True, you are, but I'd like to see a little mo' from our fellows.

I decided to make something happen in "Dawn of True Civilization" thread in my own attempt to revive this RP.

Me and Wecca are still RPing, I'm not so sure 'bout the others though.
Maybe drop Scan a line?
If not I'm sure you can somehow make contact with someone of me and Wecca.

well I am right across a river from wecca and I share a border with you so my nation can fairly easly get into contact with both of you. If thats not what you ment then you have to be more sepisific.