NationStates Jolt Archive

I have recently been writing a paper on the advancements made by the nobles of Europe and their armies into the Holy Lands during the 11th and 12th centuries. Added to this my love of the movie "Kingdom of Heaven", even though it is flawed in many ways, I have decided that I would try starting up an RP based on the crusades.

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Starting Point

Emperor Alexius I of Constantinople's plea for help against the Turks has been answered in full; Pope Urban II answering the emperor's call by calling out for Christian nobles; They set out later in 1096 in a orderly manner, led by various nobles with bands of knights from different regions of Europe. The four most significant of these were Raymond IV of Toulouse, who represented the knights of Provence, accompanied by the papal legate Adhemar of Le Puy; Bohemund of Taranto, representing the Normans of southern Italy with his nephew Tancred; The Lorrainers under the brothers Godfrey of Bouillon, Eustace and Baldwin of Boulogne and the Northern French led by Count Robert II of Flanders, Robert of Normandy (older brother of King William II of England), Stephen, Count of Blois, and Hugh of Vermandois the younger brother of King Philip I of France.

After their arrival in Constantinople the Crusading armies were ushered over the Bosphorus and within a year cut a swath throught the Seljuk Turks. Baldwin of Boulogne set off on his own towards the Armenian lands around the Euphrates. In Edessa early in 1098, he was adopted as heir by King Thoros, a Greek Orthodox ruler who was disliked by his Armenian subjects. Thoros was soon assassinated and Baldwin became the new ruler, thus creating the County of Edessa, the first of the crusader states.

After the victory at Antioch, Bohemund argued that Emperor Alexius had deserted the crusade and thus invalidated all of their oaths to him. Bohemund asserted his claim to Antioch, but not everyone agreed, and the crusade was delayed for the rest of the year while the nobles argued amongst themselves. It is a common historiographical assumption that the Franks of northern France, the Provençals of southern France, and the Normans of southern Italy considered themselves separate "nations" and that each wanted to increase its status. This may have had something to do with the disputes, but personal ambition was just as likely to blame.

Meanwhile, a plague (perhaps typhus) broke out, killing many, including the legate Adhemar. There were now even fewer horses than before, and Muslim peasants refused to give them food. In December, the capture of the Arab town of Ma'arrat al-Numan took place, and with it the first known incident of cannibalism by the crusaders. The minor knights and soldiers became restless and threatened to continue to Jerusalem without their squabbling leaders. Finally, at the beginning of 1099, the march was renewed, leaving Bohemond behind as the first Prince of Antioch.

Out of the original force of about 7,000 knights who had started the crusade, only 1,500 now remained with the main army when it arrived before the walls of Jerusalem. After a pitched battle, using a siege tower made from the crusader's own ships to enter the city, nearly the entire population of Jerusalem was massacred.

Raymond of Toulouse was offered to become king of Jerusalem but refused, saying that he wouldn't wear "a crown of gold" where Christ had worn "a crown of thorns". In the days following the massacre, Godfrey of Bouillon was made Advocatus Sancti Sepulchri ("Protector of the Holy Sepulchre"). In the last action of the crusade, he led an army which defeated an invading Fatimid army at the Battle of Ascalon. Godfrey died in July 1100, and was succeeded by his brother, Baldwin of Edessa, who took the title King of Jerusalem.


RP - Starting Point

It is the year 1123. The Crusader Kingdoms have come about and all Christendom celebrates the victory of the Christian Knights over the infidel, thousands of pilgrims coming to the Holy Land. To safeguard these pilgrims, King Baldwin, King of Jerusalem, has sanctioned the creation several different Knightly orders; most notably the Knights Templar and the Knights Hospitaller.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Near_East_1135.svg/441px-Near_East_1135.svg.png
http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/crusades/first/crusader_states.jpg
At this time the kingdom of Jerusalem had passed from the now dead Godfrey and into the hands of his nephew, Baldwin of Boulogne who had claimed Edessa, was crowned in his place. The new king made his cousin, Baldwin of Bourcq, the new Count of Edessa.

After his death in 1111, Bohemond's, called Prince of Antioch, lands were ruled by a regent, Tancred. After Tancred's death three years later, the title of prince passed to Bohemond II, son of Bohemond I and cousin to Tancred the regent.

Count Raymond IV of Toulouse, one of the leaders of the Crusade, began a lengthy war with the Banu Ammar Emirs of Tripoli (theoretically vassals of the Fatimid caliphs in Cairo), gradually seizing much of their territory and besieging them within Tripoli itself. Raymond died in 1105, leaving his infant son Alfonso-Jordan as his heir, with a cousin, William-Jordan of Cerdagne, as regent. William-Jordan continued the siege of Tripoli for the next four years, when a bastard son of Raymond, Bertrand, who had been acting as regent of Toulouse, arrived in the east, leaving Toulouse to Alfonso-Jordan and his mother, who returned to France. Bertrand and William-Jordan, due to the mediation of King Baldwin I of Jerusalem, eventually came to an agreement whereby each would keep control of their own conquests, an agreement of which Bertrand got the better part when he captured Tripoli later that year. When William-Jordan died a few months later, Bertrand became sole ruler.

Bertrand, given the title of count, rules the County of Tripoli as a vassal to the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Inside the country though the Knights Hospitaller were given their own autonomous castle, Krak des Chevaliers.

Prince Leon I controls the Principality of Armenian Cilicia, an ardent ally of the crusaders.

****

The Turkish military leader Anushtakin is governor of Damascus, vassal under the Fatimid caliph Al-Zahir, and has done much to restore the city's prosperity. He controls the more cowardly of the Emirs and pays lip service to the Caliph.

Caliph Al-Zahir is the seventh in the Fatimid line of Caliphates. He rules Egypt and commands awesome respect. His armies have been driven out of the Holy Lands by the crusaders and simmers with hatred at them, as well as at the Seljuk Turks.

Sultan Mahmud II rules the Seljuk turks in what is called the Sultunate of Rum. He despises Caliph Al-Zahir and is often in battles against him, more so even at times than against the Christian kingdoms.


Characters

-Crusader Side-
Baldwin II, King of Jerusalem Calizorinstan
Bohemund II, Prince of Antioch Independent Hitmen
Betrand, Count of Tripoli [NS]Corbournne
Raymond du Puy de Provence, Grand Master of the Knights Hospitaller Osteia
Robert de Craon, Grand Master of the Knights Templar LifesBlood
Baldwin of Bourcq, Count of Edessa The Scandinvans

-Muslim Side-
Anushtakin, Lord of Damascus Thrashia
Al-Zahir, Caliph of Egypt Gallique
Mahmud II, Sultan of Rum New Manth
Zengi, Ruler of Atabek Syria Turbikistan

-Neutral Side-
Alexius I, Emperor of Byzantium Luslyvania
Constantine, Prince of Armenian Cicilia Xeraph
Domanic Nuccio, Consul of Genoa Candistan

Armies

The strength of each characters army is of course to be decided once we have people who want to play, but to put it plainly, I will give you rough estimates:

Jerusalem: 4,500 Knights; 16,000 men-at-arms
Antioch: 2,900 Knights; 11,000 men-at-arms
Tripoli: 1,400 knights; 3,000 men-at-arms
Edessa: 1,700 Knights; 3,400 men-at-arms
Hospitallers: 1,800 Knights; 1,200 men-at-arms
Templars: 2,100 Knights; 2,000 men-at-arms


Damascus: 3,200 Malmuks; 23,000 men-at-arms
Egypt: 5,000 Malmuks; 30,000 men-at-arms
Rum (Central Asia Minor): 1,900 Malmuks; 23,000 men-at-arms
Syria: 1,900 Malmuks; 27,000 men-at-arms

Byzantium: 6,000 Knights; 10,000 men-at-arms
Armenian Cicilia: 2,000 knights; 6,000 men-at-arms
Genoa: 78 cogs, 120 knaars, 40 schooners; 30,000 men-at-arms

Trading City-State Rules

Because the city-state Genoa bases its power on the sea, it is one of the strongest maritime powers in the entire Meditteranean, it has certain aspects different from the other crusader states. Because of its connections to the Holy Roman Empire and the Papacy, Genoese rulers (consuls) have a monopoly on all trade between the Crusader States and Europe.

Genoa pays no upkeep for its knaars and schooners. Genoa is given a stipend of 1,500 gold bezants each year from trade with the Papal States and with the Holy Roman Empire. With each trade link it makes with a different nation, it recieves a 500 gold bezant stipend each year.

At the cost of its navy (it must upkeep its cogs and men-at-arms that man it) Genoa is unable to maintain a force of Knights, and by decree of the Pope, unable to recruit them except as temporary mercenaries from the Crusader States.


Politics

Much of the original Crusader states success came from the fact that their enemies were divided. For the sake of rp and for the sake of keeping this from being one-sided, the players of the Muslims cannot automatically unite, find themselves a Saladin-like leader, and kick ass. They have to worry about one another as much as they do the Christians, if not more so. The Seljuks and the Fatimids have been warring against each other in the Holy Land for several decades before the crusade even came about. The Emirs of Damascus feel oppressed by either of them. And the Atabek Turk hordes of Syria desire to carve out their own greatness.

In the Crusader camp, not all is merry as hell either. Baldwin II has full control over Jerusalem and only marginal control over Tripoli. He wants for there to be peace between the Saracens and the Christians so that the Crusader kingdoms can become strong. Unfortunately, not all the other rulers think the same. Edessa and Antioch often join together to try and assault Damascus whenever they get the chance, and are encouraged by the Cilician Armenians.

Byzantium at this time is also feeling left out after all the crusader leaders broke the oath they swore to him, promising to become his vassals. Therefore Emperor Alexias is often in conflict with the crusaders, as well as the Saracens. Not all enemies of Christ march beneath the Crescent.

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So, I hope you are all interested and I now leave the floor open for suggestions, discussion, and above all any improvements you may think the idea needs. I of course left out some holes in the history and what not, but that was merely for the sake of role play and not intended to be on accident.

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IC THREAD (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=526993)
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To give a more definite picture of what your soldiers might look like in detail, I collected some pics here below:

Knight Templar on the left, Hospitaller on the right (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/Medieval/KIRK6479CustomImage1692642.jpg)

Good example of a non-Templar/Hospotiller Knight (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/Medieval/Norman_Knight.jpg)

Jerusalem & Antioch Men-at-arms (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/Medieval/varangianguard4om.jpg)

Average Saracen Horse Archer (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/Medieval/turcopole2jp.jpg)

Atabek men-at-arm (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/Medieval/mongol17ef.jpg)

Atabek & Seljuk Archer (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/Medieval/mha1b1eu.jpg)

Fatimid & Damascus Men-at-arm (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/Medieval/JHI_prev_04.jpg)

Fatimid Archer & Crusader Men-at-arms fighting (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/Medieval/hashishinmonosmlyy2.jpg)

Mamluk Heavy Cavalry; For all Muslim factions (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/Medieval/ghulamcavalry0rh.jpg)

Byzantine Men-at-arms (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/Medieval/bulgarinfantryman9un.jpg)

Seljuk Archer (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/Medieval/bulgararcher7zz.jpg)

Seljuk Warriors (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/Medieval/seljuk_warriors_enh.jpg)

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Reference Links

Good Faction information site (http://www.friesian.com/outremer.htm#malta)
Another map (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/kjlemmap.gif)

Northern Holy Lands Castles and Roads IMPORTANT (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/map.gif)

IMPORTANT: Location of all major Fortresses of the Crusaders & Saracens (http://medievalcoins.ancients.info/maps/Crusader_Levant_map_small.JPG)



Rules


Money System: The coin of use in the Holy Land is the Bezant.

1 Gold Bezant = 10 Silver Bezants
1 Silver Bezant = 10 Copper Bezants

Income

Each province receives income from taxes, trade with other kingdoms and cities, and through material donations by farmers that are on your land. By creating trade links with other, non-hostile, nations you are able to increase your yearly income by 200 gold bezants.

Yearly Provincial Income

-Crusader Side-
Jerusalem - 20,000 gold bezants
Antioch - 19,000 gold bezants
Tripoli - 20,000 gold bezants
Knights Hospitaller - 8,000 gold bezants
Knights Templar - 9,000 gold bezants
Edessa - 17,000 gold bezants

-Muslim Side-
Damascus - 23,000 gold bezants
Egypt - 34,000 gold bezants
Rum (Asia Minor) - 19,000 gold bezants
Syria - 20,000 gold bezants

-Neutral Side-
Byzantium - 25,000 gold bezants
Armenian Cicilia - 21,000 gold bezants
Genoa - 35,000 gold bezants

1) No more than 50% of your yearly income may be used for military expenditures, that is raising troops. However more than 50% can be used of your money to maintain your present army.
2) Players are responsible for keeping tabs on their money and taxes. If a player is found breaking the 50% bar on military they will be charge by me and if warranted, banned from playing for an extended period of time. When you post the raising of troops, you will have to list the amount of bezants (money) that each cost.
3) When you conquer another province to add to your holdings, its money and income will be added to your initial income.

Military

Military Expenses and Types (Land)
There is a 70,000 army limit concerning the number of men you can recruit. That is 70,000 total.


There are two main types of military: mounted and foot.

1 Mounted Knight costs 8 gold bezants to raise, and 4 gold bezants per year to maintain.
1 Foot Knight costs 4 gold bezants to raise and 2 gold bezants per year to maintain.
1 Man-at-arms costs 2 silver bezants to raise and 1 silver bezants per year to maintain.
1 archer costs 1 gold bezant to raise and 3 silver bezants per year to maintain.

Naval Expenses and Description

1) Small Scouting Craft: the Schooner .The Schooner is powered by a single mast and can hold 10 knights. It is lightly defended by a structure made from cloths and hides. 1 Schooner costs 60 gold bezants to construct, and 30 gold bezants annually to support.
2) Medium Craft: the Knaar. The Knaar is powered by two masts and can hold 20 knights. It is defended by a structure made of sturdy wood. 1 Knaar costs 140 gold bezants to construct, and 70 gold bezants annually to support.
3) Large Craft: the Cog. The Cog is powered by three masts and can hold 40 knights. It carries a tall, multi-storey, wooden structure with holes all around. 1 Cog costs 280 gold bezants to construct and 140 gold bezants annually to support.

Military Upkeep

Military maintenance fees are paid each 'year', in-game.

Mercenaries

The Italian City-States of Genoa and Venice are two of the most powerful naval forces in the sea, with the exception of the Byzantine Navy. Each city-state has a force of nearly 50-100 cogs, backed by a larger force of transports capable of landing entire armies. However these ships do not come free and the Italians are renown businessmen. To hire a Genoan/Venetian Fleet requires a sum of 4,000 gold bezants. The Byzantines are under no such mercenary laws, and therefore can opt to offer you assistance for free or for a fee; that depends upon the will of the Emperor.

Reinforcements from Europe

Each year more and more knights and would-be adventurers arrive from Europe seeking glory and riches. They often will choose to serve a particular king or baron, aiding their strength to them.

At the end of every year, as I decide when a year ends, each Christian land will receive the following reinforcements without paying the cost of raising troops:

40 Mounted Knights
70 Men-at-arms
25 Archers
3 Cogs
7 Schooners

Fortification and Castle Rule

Fort
This is the most basic of castles, it consists of a single palisade (wooden) wall atop a dug wall of sand and dirt for elevation. It has a single gate, two small towers beside the gate, and a simple raised mound at the center where a large tent or temporary building can be made, in the center. The fort can be constructed in one RL day and can be used to help garrison a newly conquered province. These forts can hold 500 men each.
Construction Cost: 300 Gold Bezants


Castle
This is the second stage of making a full fledged castle, it still has a palisade wall but has added towers along the walls length for archers to defend from. it also has a moat that is dug out in front of it, and a reinforced gate house. The keep is reinforced with rock and is also better and more complex. For a castle to built, if built on the site of a fort, will take one RL day. If constructed from scratch, it will take 3 RL days. A castle can hold 900 men.
Construction Cost: 1,200 Gold Bezants
Bonuses: The castle allows for you to govern an area better and with the castle comes with 200 men-at-arms who come raised with the castle, without need of using your military budget.


Fortress
A Fortress is a much stronger defensive structure. The walls of a fortress are made of stone, has a large moat on its outside, and has a second inner wall behind the first main one. The keep also is much more complex with two more added smaller towers, and the keep itself is perhaps 5 levels high. If built from the basis of a castle the Fortress can be built within 2 RL days, if from scratch it will take 5 RL days. The Fortress can hold 1,500 men.
Construction Cost: 3,500 Gold Bezants
Bonuses: The fortress is one of the hardest castles to take in a siege and therefore stronger. When built it is garrisoned automatically by 500 men-at-arms that you do not need to pay for with your military budget.

Citadel
The largest type of castle able to be built. It has 3 main rock walls, as many as two moats, and a maze of passage ways and gates going through it. The keep of a Citadel is also about 7 levels high and has as many as three other smaller towers around it. If built from the basis of a Fortress it will take 4 RL days, if built from scratch it will take 7 RL days. A citadel can hold up to 3,000 men.
Construction Cost: 5,000 Gold Bezants
Bonuses: The citadel once built is like an oyster, the hardest of castles to take; able to stand up to at least a year in a siege. When built it will come automatically with a 800 men-at-arms garrison who are not paid for by your military budget.




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Alliances and Trade
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Jerusalem

Trades With:

Allied With:

At War With:

Antioch

Trades with:

Allied With:

At War With:

Tripoli

Trades with:

Allied With:

At War With:

Knights Hospitaller

Trades with:

Allied With:

At War With:

Knights Templar

Trades with:

Allied With:

At War With:

Edessa

Allied With:

Trades with:

At War With:

Damascus

Trades with:

Allied With:

At War With:

Egypt

Trades With:

Allied With:

At War With:

Rum (Asia Minor)

Trades With:

Allied With:

At War With:

Syria

Trades With:

Allied With:

At War With:

Byzantium

Trades With:

Allied With:

At War With:

Armenian Cicilia

Trades With:

Allied With:

At War With:

Genoa

Trades With:

Allied With:

At War With:

I'd gladly take part in this, playing as Alexius if possible. See if I can't keep the Muslims away from Baldwin and his boys whilst at the same time securing my own hold in the region.

By the way, I agree with you that, while it is flawed in some respects, "Kingdom of Heaven" is an excellent movie.

OoC: I've got exams for the next week or so, so I might be unable to take part in the beginning of the roleplay depending on when it's going to start.

However, I'd like to claim Robert de Craon if that's ok?

Also, is this more a character or war/tactical roleplay?

Finally, any advice you can give me on how to use the Templars?

I'd gladly take part in this, playing as Alexius if possible. See if I can't keep the Muslims away from Baldwin and his boys whilst at the same time securing my own hold in the region.

By the way, I agree with you that, while it is flawed in some respects, "Kingdom of Heaven" is an excellent movie.

Thank you for responding! And of course you are more than welcome to be Alexius. I advise you to look up all you can historically of Alexius I and the Byzantine Empire during his reign. I'll be posting some images of what Byzantine Knights and soldiers looked like in the second post with the others for your use.

OoC: I've got exams for the next week or so, so I might be unable to take part in the beginning of the roleplay depending on when it's going to start.

However, I'd like to claim Robert de Craon if that's ok?

Also, is this more a character or war/tactical roleplay?

Finally, any advice you can give me on how to use the Templars?

Thanks for joining as well LifesBlood, and don't worry about being terribly too active at first. I don't expect it to shoot off like a rocket right off the bat. And you may indeed play as the Knights Templar and their leader Robert de Craon.

This rp is a mix of both Character and war/tactical (as you put it) roleplay. Meaning that while the stories our characters create affect everything, their armies can affect the characters as well. There of course will be no character killing without some discussion between the two players and a reasonably good reason (aka, your character is caught surrounded in a besieged castle!).

As for advice? Well I would advise you to first read up on Templar History (Wikipedia is fairly accurate). Also I recommend you find the book "The Templar Legacy", while a fiction book, it does portray the Templars in a fashion that I have never seen before, and I believe represents them well. Its not the same garbage as the Davinci Code. Other than that, I would suggest reading up on medieval military tactics.

I love this period, I will be Baldwin II, King of Jerusalem if you don't mind, always had a facsination for the Knights Templar, so much mystery surrounding them!

Antioch please, thank you

Betrand, Count of Tripoli if you would please.

Scandanavian, Lifesblood just took Robert de Croan, so you'll have to pick a different guy!

Lol, woah there boys! Ok, ok, each of your requests are accepted. I myself am playing as the Knights Hospitaller, so that's taken!

Bump, for people to claim Saracen characters/factions. If we don't get many more then I may change over to a Saracen.

Like I told LifeBlood and Luslyvania, I want everyone to do a little research to get a good feel of their characters and factions. Wiki is good for you.

Another factions added: Edessa.

Im doing that now!..getting a feel for my charactor that is..heh..

Im doing that now!..getting a feel for my charactor that is..heh..

Great! And nice to be rping with you again Osteia, been too long since the Armies of Han and the Osteian Legions fought! lol. And you too Scands.

Great! And nice to be rping with you again Osteia, been too long since the Armies of Han and the Osteian Legions fought! lol. And you too Scands.

Ahh yes! those were the days!..back when i had my nation NS reallydrunk :(...it's gone now...

I remember our clashes, it's recorded in Osteian history..and the naval blockade during the invasion of Aust..

It's going to be a pleasure once again..

Bump, need more players.

lol. you forgot about Edessa.

lol. you forgot about Edessa.

Yea *head sinks in shame* I did. :P

Yea *head sinks in shame* I did. :PMay I have first grabs after I see the stats?;)

May I have first grabs after I see the stats?;)

Sure, so you want to switch?

Sure, so you want to switch?Sure, as it will be more fun.:p

I have already been doing some research into the Empire and the Komnenos line of Byzantine rulers.

By the way, supposing my main character, the Byzantine monarch dies while leading a great Byzantine host in battle or something, can I shift to the next in line, such as a daughter, a son, etc..., or am I eliminated from the RP?

I have already been doing some research into the Empire and the Komnenos line of Byzantine rulers.

By the way, supposing my main character, the Byzantine monarch dies while leading a great Byzantine host in battle or something, can I shift to the next in line, such as a daughter, a son, etc..., or am I eliminated from the RP?

Yes you can. The death of your character does not mean the death of your faction. Byzantium would only fall should Constantinople fall. And likewise the same for the Crusader states.

Yes you can. The death of your character does not mean the death of your faction. Byzantium would only fall should Constantinople fall. And likewise the same for the Crusader states.

Excellent! Consantinople falling would most likely mean what territories I had left would not hold together, or at least not for a very long period.

By the way, I sent you a telegram just now that I think you should look in to.

Soo..let me get this straight, this is NOT historical...we can do what we please within reason..correct?

Excellent! Consantinople falling would most likely mean what territories I had left would not hold together, or at least not for a very long period.

By the way, I sent you a telegram just now that I think you should look in to.

Answered you.

@Scand: I switched you.

Answered you.

@Scand: I switched you.*Gives a parrot that fetches cookies, pop, water, and beer on command.*

Alright, though if you would not mind i could right up some stats on all the forces if you wish based upon my data and conclusions.:)

In response to what you telegrammed to me, Thrashia, I'll be historically accurate and play as John II Komnenos, not Alexius I Komnenos. I would play as Alexius...but I am not in the mood to play a zombie. ;)

Soo..let me get this straight, this is NOT historical...we can do what we please within reason..correct?


.......?

It will be as historical as can be made possible. However you of course have the freedom of rp.

It will be as historical as can be made possible. However you of course have the freedom of rp.

Ok cool

I've switched to the Saracen side. BUMP!

Can i change to Raymond du Puy de Provence, Grand Master of the Knights Hospitaller? please....?

Sure, but it's your last change! lol.

I could play the Fatimids, but I will be out this weekend.

Sure, but it's your last change! lol.

Ok, thank you! lol

Very interesting and well thought out thread. Would it be possible to RP Constantine, Prince of Cicilia? I know nothing about this particular character, so the research would add to my interest.


I just did some searching for a reference to Constatine of Armenian Cicilia, and found nothing. Is he a fictional character in tis thread?

I just did some searching for a reference to Constatine of Armenian Cicilia, and found nothing. Is he a fictional character in tis thread?

I found a minor reference on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_of_Armenia).

Hope he's the right guy. xD.

I found a minor reference on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_of_Armenia).

Hope he's the right guy. xD.


Thanks.....I can work from that....

I'll grab Al-Zahir of Egypt.

Or if that doesn't work, Mahmud II.

Hey, just because I could I crunched some numbers to see how many soldiers and knights live in the Christian Kingdoms, how many troops the Muslim Nations have, and how many the Neutral Forces (Byzantium and Armenia) have. I lumped different troops types together, to keep things simple.

Islamic Nations: 115,000

Christian Kingdoms: 53,800

Neutral Forces: 24,000

Now, as you all can plainly see, if they were to unite, the Islamic people could field perhaps a hundred thousand knights and soldiers. Fortunately for the Christian Kingdoms, it happens they are not united. Yet.

Next in line, the nations of Christendom in the Middle East, united, could field in the neighborhood of half that, a bit less.

Last, the two main neutral powers, Byzantium and Armenia between them are less than 50% as numerous as the next largest force, the Christian Kingdoms, and Byzantium is further disadvantaged by that fact that she is alone in this struggle, with no real friends, official or otherwise.

intresting...

intresting...

I'm bored. Is it obvious? Plus, I wanted to save everybody else the time spent on the arithmetic.

Hey, just because I could I crunched some numbers to see how many soldiers and knights live in the Christian Kingdoms, how many troops the Muslim Nations have, and how many the Neutral Forces (Byzantium and Armenia) have. I lumped different troops types together, to keep things simple.

Islamic Nations: 115,000

Christian Kingdoms: 53,800

Neutral Forces: 24,000

Now, as you all can plainly see, if they were to unite, the Islamic people could field perhaps a hundred thousand knights and soldiers. Fortunately for the Christian Kingdoms, it happens they are not united. Yet.

Next in line, the nations of Christendom in the Middle East, united, could field in the neighborhood of half that, a bit less.

Last, the two main neutral powers, Byzantium and Armenia between them are less than 50% as numerous as the next largest force, the Christian Kingdoms, and Byzantium is further disadvantaged by that fact that she is alone in this struggle, with no real friends, official or otherwise.

According to stats, Armenia has a total of 8,000 men, knights and foot-soldiers combined. That would leave Byzantium with 16,000. If all of the Christian Kingdoms united, it would still leave them about 25,000 men less than the Islamic lands.
So, a possible solution COULD be: an alternate-history story. Nothing radical or stupid, just a bit of historical "license" to even up the sides with some interesting side-stories. From what I've seen here, there are some pretty good writers who won't call in 600,000 clone-yeomen or starships that the locals would deem "dragons"...etc....

According to stats, Armenia has a total of 8,000 men, knights and foot-soldiers combined. That would leave Byzantium with 16,000. If all of the Christian Kingdoms united, it would still leave them about 25,000 men less than the Islamic lands.
So, a possible solution COULD be: an alternate-history story. Nothing radical or stupid, just a bit of historical "license" to even up the sides with some interesting side-stories. From what I've seen here, there are some pretty good writers who won't call in 600,000 clone-yeomen or starships that the locals would deem "dragons"...etc....

^^^ Agreed...

Also..

Luslyvania:

Thank you, at least i know the rough numbers now...heh, i didn't have to go look at that!

^^^ Agreed...

Also..

Luslyvania:

Thank you, at least i know the rough numbers now...heh, i didn't have to go look at that!

No problem, though keep in mind those numbers are just the troops the respective nations and factions have right now. Professional soldiers can be augmented by conscription.

If enough time is taken, conscripts can be trained and outfitted just like professionals, and really it does not take long, or at least, not as long as some might be inclined to think.

No problem, though keep in mind those numbers are just the troops the respective nations and factions have right now. Professional soldiers can be augmented by conscription.

Indeed, though that would probably be much harder for the Crusaders than the Muslims, seeing as the Crusaders are foreign conquerors who haven't really had time to establish a loyal population base and in fact are at odds somewhat with their own civilian populations. I can't imagine that the massacres so far have favorably disposed the locals, you know?

OTOH the Muslims are still disunited, and the Crusaders may be able to get a little help from mainland Europe, not that there is all that much to be had.

in this period, the Christians and the Muslims made alliances against each other, to gain over the other; Saladin didn't conquer the Holy Lands until he had already conquered the other Muslim lands. Religion was a powerful tool in the hands of those who could manipulate it well, but when it meant stabbing the backs of other people's interpretations of the same religion, you could easily ally with one "infidel" to get rid of the other one.

in this period, the Christians and the Muslims made alliances against each other, to gain over the other; Saladin didn't conquer the Holy Lands until he had already conquered the other Muslim lands. Religion was a powerful tool in the hands of those who could manipulate it well, but when it meant stabbing the backs of other people's interpretations of the same religion, you could easily ally with one "infidel" to get rid of the other one.


...sort of reminds one of the Mafia...

...sort of reminds one of the Mafia...

Doesn't it?

Back to the subject of conscripted soldiers, from what I've read, Byzantium had extensive experience with militia included as a military mainstay by this point. I'll elaborate as soon as I've completed my research.

I'd like to get involved once my exams finish (friday afternoon they are over). So this is kind of a tag so I can see what positions are available when that happens.
I'm currently studying for my history BA, but my uni doesnt offer any specific courses in this area so I'd like to augment my knowledge. The crusades were always my favourite topic at school :D

Edit: Ideally I would like to be The Prince of Antioch, however I'll check back in on friday to see if its still free!

I can't waaaitt for this :)

I'm still interested in doing the fatimids, but i won't have time this weekend to start. now is a good time for me... [j'aime les vacances!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D]


EDIT PROMO - speaking of which, if you're stuck in historical RPs and need to know the time, why not stop by my watch shop, where we have watches for all sorts and walks! Arms your soldiers with watches that carry laser beams [not yet available] and watches that glow in the dark! Impress the Royalty of your enemies with cool suave watches that will tell the time wherever [or whenever]! Or if you just need a watch because you're lost in time! We have whatever it is that you need!


Venez ici:::http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=526751

Oh damn, you want the Fatimids. Well I will take Mahmud II then.

Look out Byzantium (and Egypt! ;) )

I'm still interested in doing the fatimids, but i won't have time this weekend to start. now is a good time for me... [j'aime les vacances!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D]

You have it.

Ok, a lot to respond to! Here goes...

I could play the Fatimids, but I will be out this weekend.

You have the spot. If however you feel you won't be active, please say so.

Very interesting and well thought out thread. Would it be possible to RP Constantine, Prince of Cicilia? I know nothing about this particular character, so the research would add to my interest.


I just did some searching for a reference to Constatine of Armenian Cicilia, and found nothing. Is he a fictional character in tis thread?


Armenian Cicilia is yours for the taking. I got my information from "The Shorter Cambridge Medieval History Part I" book. But then that link given to you should have about the same, if not more, information.

I'll grab Al-Zahir of Egypt.

Or if that doesn't work, Mahmud II.

Egypt was taken! Ahh! But Mahmud II is open and now yours. Welcome.

I'd like to get involved once my exams finish (friday afternoon they are over). So this is kind of a tag so I can see what positions are available when that happens.
I'm currently studying for my history BA, but my uni doesnt offer any specific courses in this area so I'd like to augment my knowledge. The crusades were always my favourite topic at school :D

Edit: Ideally I would like to be The Prince of Antioch, however I'll check back in on friday to see if its still free!

The spot will be yours. Hopefully you'll be active enough after friday.

You have the spot. If however you feel you won't be active, please say so.


Once I return from vacations this weekend, I should have plenty of time after that to participate.

Oh damn, you want the Fatimids. Well I will take Mahmud II then.

Look out Byzantium (and Egypt! ;) )

Byzantium is ready when you are.

Hey, Thrashia, when does this get started? I'm just curious.

From looking at all the maps, Cyprus, which is a Byzantine possession if I am reading them correctly, is essentially mostly covered with castles and fortresses. I count nearly a dozen.

We'll be starting the rp tonight. First though I have to finish writing up some rules concerning conscription, income, and reinforcements from abroad.

We'll be starting the rp tonight. First though I have to finish writing up some rules concerning conscription, income, and reinforcements from abroad.

Excellent. I'm planning on backing up the Byzantine forces, so to speak, if I can, to make them less reliant on barbarian (non-Byzantine) and mercenary hirelings. I've just TGed you a link that should help outline what I am intending in good detail. If it will cause problems, please let me know.

I need to learn a little bit about my country before starting to RP it, too. At the moment all I know is that the name "Rum" comes from "Rome" and it was called that because it was smack dab in the middle of what used to be the Roman Empire's (Byzantium's) main source of soldiers.

Off to Wikipedia!

Ok, this is for everyone!

This thread shall be our ooc thread and discussion thread. The first two posts at the very beginning will be where I shall update rules, maps, and any new units that we come across that the players feel they should have or have found to be historically accurate. BE SURE TO READ THE RULES WHEN I POST THEM. Thanks.

Feel free to research. I won't be posting the link to the main RP thread until about 6 om eastern standard time.

I do have a question, regarding navy. I don't really know what sort of navy, if any, each state has. I have vague ideas that the Crusaders were mostly reliant on the navies of various Italian city-states, but beyond that I don't know.

So, who's got the ships? :)

I do have a question, regarding navy. I don't really know what sort of navy, if any, each state has. I have vague ideas that the Crusaders were mostly reliant on the navies of various Italian city-states, but beyond that I don't know.

So, who's got the ships? :)

I would imagine any nation with a significant coastline would have ships, and maybe even a professional navy, at least as professional as any military organization in those days was, but I'm only speculating.

The navy shall be addressed in the rules which I am right now posting.

Woohoo! we are well on the way now!

Rules are up and now I am off to create the first post of the IC thread. Cheers!

PS- read the rules (second post) carefully.

Could I be lesser Armenia or Antioch? It doesn't matter which one.

Has Egypt been claimed yet?

@Cand & Turbkistan: Antioch, Egypt, and Armenia have all been claimed. However Tripoli is open, as is Atabek Syria.

OOC: Syria! I will trade with you ;)

1) No more than 50% of your yearly income may be used for military expenditures, that is raising troops. However more than 50% can be used of your money to maintain your present army.
2) Players are responsible for keeping tabs on their money and taxes. If a player is found breaking the 50% bar on military they will be charge by me and if warranted, banned from playing for an extended period of time. When you post the raising of troops, you will have to list the amount of bezants (money) that each cost.
3) When you conquer another province to add to your holdings, its money and income will be added to your initial income.

In relation to the Templars [And perhaps Hospitallers] is the 50% rule amended because we're militant orders?

Or would I use my extra income for the building of fortifications and possibly the whole banking/infrastructure thing the Templars seemed to excel at and thus increase future income? Maybe the rest is just spent on the general wear-and-tear of the soldiers and the employment of non-military members, I'm not sure.

Not actually trying to undermine the rules, just pretty ignorant to how they would effect me. Sorry.

I'll take Rum, then, if Manth prefers Syria.

I'll take Syria, please.

OOC: Syria! I will trade with you ;)

You want syria instead of Rum?

@Lifesblood: Hrm...I'll have to think about that one. For now consider yourself bound by the rule until I can figure out something.

Corbournne;12653603']I'll take Rum, then, if Manth prefers Syria.

Sry mate but Turbikistan was here first. Check back in a little bit, as I may add the City-States of Genoa and Venice to the list of playable characters. As well as the Pope.

OOC: On the subject of trade, let it be known that while I hate and despise the Crusaders, the enemy of my enemy is at least less of my enemy than before. And since the Crusaders have been fighting Egyptians and Egypt-allied nations, I'd be willing to trade with any Crusader states that aren't actively trying to invade me. Despite my earlier comments, I'd be open to trade with Byzantium too.

Trying to supplement my sorry income, you see ;)

Alright, if you choose to make them playable, can I go ahead and reserve Venice?

I'll take Syria, please.

You have it.

You want syria instead of Rum?

Nono... I was encouraging him to take Syria so that I could get some trade partners. Sorry for the confusion.

It's just that we cultured Seljuks can't resist trade opportunities. We are a peaceful nation... *hides knife*

Where are the rules?..im reading up on my charactor more now..and the knights i control.

Corbournne;12653633']Alright, if you choose to make them playable, can I go ahead and reserve Venice?

Yes.

Rules are on the 2nd Post, Page 1 of this thread!

I'd trade with anybody in the game if I thought it would be a benefit to Byzantium's interests. From what I've heard, I'll have to supress Rum early, kick his face in at least enough to stop him messing with me.

Unless he can make leaving him alone worth my while, maybe help me punish my oath-breaking neighbors in the backstabbing Christian Kingdoms. Traitors! Redemption draws nigh!

Hell, I'd be quite amenable to leaving you alone in return for a little bribe - that's the Byzantine way, isn't it? Maybe a flat gold payment, or even just a trade arrangement (which would benefit you as well).

I've no interest in bleeding us both out so the Crusaders or Egyptians can sneak in and mop up the remnants of both our countries. Egypt looks to be the most powerful Muslim state and I don't really want to leave myself open to them.

I assume troops we pay for this year come in gradually over the course of the year, and are all ready by next year? Or something like that?

Ok, the rules don't look bad to me...cool.

Do i have my postion? Grand Master of the Order of St. John of Jerusalem right now? if so then i know my location..lol

I'd trade with anyone who would help me wipe out the Muslim infidel's, and destory Islam once and for all.

Hell, I'd be quite amenable to leaving you alone in return for a little bribe - that's the Byzantine way, isn't it? Maybe a flat gold payment, or even just a trade arrangement (which would benefit you as well).

I've no interest in bleeding us both out so the Crusaders or Egyptians can sneak in and mop up the remnants of both our countries. Egypt looks to be the most powerful Muslim state and I don't really want to leave myself open to them.

I'm a bit nervous about Egypt as well, but don't think I'll just be handing you money to leave me alone. I'll be having a few return demands.

In any case, I'll study the rules and get familiarized with them.

OOC: Hmmm... Yeah, actually looking at Byzantium I don't think you'll have any money to spare anyway. You need your yearly to maintain all those knights, right?

In that case I'd be perfectly willing to settle for a mutually beneficial trade arrangement and a nonagression treaty. Maybe marry off a few relatives and call it a day? With Egypt looking to be such a powerhouse I'd rather focus attention elsewhere.

I'd trade with anyone who would help me wipe out the Muslim infidel's, and destory Islam once and for all.

Well then we should establish trade quickly then..err..wait, i am already in Jerusalem..there would be no need to establish trade because you are already there too..

Well then we should establish trade quickly then..err..wait, i am already in Jerusalem..there would be no need to establish trade because you are already there too..


Therocitlcly, aren't I your commander in cheif so to speak! ;) I am the King of Jerusalem, and thus I think he command's all the forces.

I'd trade with anyone who would help me wipe out the Muslim infidel's, and destory Islam once and for all.

Watch out, that rhetoric will get us Muslims uniting against you after all ;)

I for one am not necessarily interested in a religious jihad. There are benefits to peace too. I'm willing to trade with and sign nonaggression treaties with any Crusader state that is interested in peaceful relations, any Muslim state save Egypt, and Byzantium.

OOC: Hmmm... Yeah, actually looking at Byzantium I don't think you'll have any money to spare anyway. You need your yearly to maintain all those knights, right?

In that case I'd be perfectly willing to settle for a mutually beneficial trade arrangement and a nonagression treaty. Maybe marry off a few relatives and call it a day? With Egypt looking to be such a powerhouse I'd rather focus attention elsewhere.

From what I can tell, I can maintain my present forces and have money left.

Marrying a few relatives would be an excellent idea, and complete authentic in regards to how things were done in those times.

By the way, Thrashia, as long as I'm here, I have a question about the rules laid down. You have stated that using more than 50% of annual income on military expenditures is forbidden, but that using more than that to maintain military forces already outfitted is not. If I spend exactly 50% of my annual Bezants on new military forces, not including maintenance for those I have already, and then add maintenance costs to that, is that a violation?

Might I also suggest a Q&A section in the rules post?

Hey! Easy on the treaties, people, unless you want to spend the whole RP in ass-numbing treaty negotiations. ;)

Really, though neogitations make sense, and were all too common in the time period we'll be playing in.

Watch out, that rhetoric will get us Muslims uniting against you after all ;)

I for one am not necessarily interested in a religious jihad. There are benefits to peace too. I'm willing to trade with and sign nonaggression treaties with any Crusader state that is interested in peaceful relations, any Muslim state save Egypt, and Byzantium.

Then bring them on, we are ready to fight their jihad! :sniper: We shall trade with you, and sign a non-agression pact. Never fear, we shall handle these jihadist's with ease! :mp5:

Therocitlcly, aren't I your commander in cheif so to speak! ;) I am the King of Jerusalem, and thus I think he command's all the forces.

I serve my king with the outmost loyalty :)

And yes, i do believe my lord is at your disposal!

ALSO! I agree with the Q&A section...

Hey! Easy on the treaties, people, unless you want to spend the whole RP in ass-numbing treaty negotiations.


Give peace a chance! :p

In all seriousness, I don't plan to sign treaties with everyone. Just most everyone. Peace with our neighbors will be advantageous for both sides.

Anyway, are we ready for an IC thread?

It seems to me that I've taken the faction with the less information on seeing as Syria isn't on the map. Where could I find more information on it? Wikipedia has hardly any information.

It seems to me that I've taken the faction with the less information on seeing as Syria isn't on the map. Where could I find more information on it? Wikipedia has hardly any information.

You should research the Atabeks, not Syria. They possessed Northern Syria and Mesopotamia. So research their nation, not their region, to find information.

From what I can tell, I can maintain my present forces and have money left.

Marrying a few relatives would be an excellent idea, and complete authentic in regards to how things were done in those times.

By the way, Thrashia, as long as I'm here, I have a question about the rules laid down. You have stated that using more than 50% of annual income on military expenditures is forbidden, but that using more than that to maintain military forces already outfitted is not. If I spend exactly 50% of my annual Bezants on new military forces, not including maintenance for those I have already, and then add maintenance costs to that, is that a violation?

Might I also suggest a Q&A section in the rules post?

Q&A will go up as they come up. XD

As for your question, it is not. Basically the forces you have starting out with are already raised, you must merely maintain them. Any new force raised do not need maintenance until the following year. But remember the 70,000 army mark is as high as you go, thats all knights, men-at-arms, and archers combined.

Actually, could I just take Tripoli instead of Venice?

Corbournne;12653948']Actually, could I just take Tripoli instead of Venice?

Tripoli is yours! And thanks for joining.

IC thread is going up. link will be on the first page, first post.

Okay so the Atabeks would be direclty east of Edessa, around Mosul, if I'm not mistaken. Right?

Okay so the Atabeks would be direclty east of Edessa, around Mosul, if I'm not mistaken. Right?

On this map:

http://medievalcoins.ancients.info/maps/Crusader_Levant_map_small.JPG

You would control all five of the fortresses in the top right corner. Mosul would indeed be your capital.

Right. Thanks for clearing up my spending rules question, Thrashia. I have just one more query right now that is in my head, and that's it.

In the second post, you mention that Genoa and Venice are among the most powerful naval forces on this sea, with the exception of the Byzantine Navy's forces. Does that mean I start the game with a standing navy? If so, how big is it?

On that map as Baldwin II of Jerusalem, would I just control Jersualem?

Hmm...so I'm poor. Fair enough ;) might try and get a post up tonight actually before bed. Not sure on my stance yet, you lot can expect some TG's to seek out some RP negotiating oppurtunities.

Thanks, Trashia.

Sorry about my lack of knowledge on the Crusades though. I'll do some more research before posting.

If Tripoli is open then I'll take it. Otherwise, I was thinking of maybe being a travelling Merchant guild that could sell its wares to the good kingdoms of the Crusaders and Muslims. If the latter of my choices is possible then I will take that.

If Tripoli is open then I'll take it. Otherwise, I was thinking of maybe being a travelling Merchant guild that could sell its wares to the good kingdoms of the Crusaders and Muslims. If the latter of my choices is possible then I will take that.

Ah, that one was just taken Cand! I'm sorry. However I do need someone to play as the City-State of Genoa. You'd have command of their fleet and would be in complete control of the flow of reinforcements from Europe to the Holy Land. How would you like that? If you do, then I'll set up your stats before 9 pm eastern standard.

I'm fine with that. Genoa also sells mercenary contracts, am I correct?

I ran the numbers again, and I stand corrected. Maintaining my present forces is going to essentially require every Bezant I have. *Sigh* Looks like I'm doomed to organize a few conquests. I am not looking forward to that kind of thing. *Crosses fingers*

Alright, before I make an opening, post, exactly how much autonomy does Tripoli have from Jerusalem.

I have 9700 gold left, each year. Can I invest in other things? Such as walls, and fortifications?

I have 9700 gold left, each year. Can I invest in other things? Such as walls, and fortifications?

Yea, I'll get up some guidelines for building walls and defenses. I got 7,900 bezants after upkeep. So don't think your alone...

Alright, before I make an opening, post, exactly how much autonomy does Tripoli have from Jerusalem.

Enough that you only have to heed Jerusalem when they call for help in war.

Enough that you only have to heed Jerusalem when they call for help in war.

Alright.

A rather mundane question I know...Ive been running my numbers and am wondering if the yearly deductions will be taken at the start of right at the end of the year. I'm just concerned with what the reinforcements from the West will add to my maintenance costs.
If they arrive say at the end of 1100 (for arguements sake) are we to pay maintenance on them for 1100 (I assume not but would like to check) or does maintenance start at the end of 1101 for them (assuming they survive long enough).

Also I am working under the assumption that nobody except the Byzantines and the Italian States start with a Navy.
Oh and that we should keep an uptodate figure of our armed forces in this thread as well? Or at least a rough estimate for other players once wars start and to keep tab of what is being trained.

EDIT: Oh and historically my character does not actually get to Antioch until 1126...so shall I take no part for the first three years, or play as the regent?

Doing some of my reaserarch Edessa was capable of having a larger army then given due to it being a powerful agriculture center, the Euphrates and all. As well, it also produced horses, from my book "A Short History of the Crusades". So I am thinkng of me being able to have 1,700 knights and 4,200 men-at-arms.

A rather mundane question I know...Ive been running my numbers and am wondering if the yearly deductions will be taken at the start of right at the end of the year. I'm just concerned with what the reinforcements from the West will add to my maintenance costs.
If they arrive say at the end of 1100 (for arguements sake) are we to pay maintenance on them for 1100 (I assume not but would like to check) or does maintenance start at the end of 1101 for them (assuming they survive long enough).

You are correct in that you won't have to pay for their upkeep until 1101. So the money you save from 1100 will be enough to cover that small an increase in your armed forces.


Also I am working under the assumption that nobody except the Byzantines and the Italian States start with a Navy.
You would be correct, with the exception of maybe a few dozen transports for trade and moving small groups of soldiers. Each port has (I a making this a rule) three Knaars that are free and do not need to be maintained each year.


Oh and that we should keep an uptodate figure of our armed forces in this thread as well? Or at least a rough estimate for other players once wars start and to keep tab of what is being trained.

What I do is save all my word documents on my comp in a folder that keeps track of everything for me, like money, troops, etc. In this case we all start out knowing what the other has (starting troops). If you choose to increase that or other, then just keep it for yourself and make marginal mentions of it in the thread, like a discussion between a magistrate and your character talking about the cost of raising a new company of bowmen, etc. That is enough for the rp.

Doing some of my reaserarch Edessa was capable of having a larger army then given due to it being a powerful agriculture center, the Euphrates and all. As well, it also produced horses, from my book "A Short History of the Crusades". So I am thinkng of me being able to have 1,700 knights and 4,200 men-at-arms.

I'll increase your knights to that number, and increase your men-at-arms by a thousand. That should be enough.

I'll increase your knights to that number, and increase your men-at-arms by a thousand. That should be enough.Thanks.

*Gives a cookie made of gold*

I have three knaars in every port to start, without annual maintenance fees?

Excellent! Now I just need to count out all my ports.

So is it possible for Genoa to sell out mercenary services and for me to also incorporate a trade guild of sorts.

So is it possible for Genoa to sell out mercenary services and for me to also incorporate a trade guild of sorts.

Yes. As Genoa you would maintain a few warehouses and market areas in each port where your trade would be located. As a sea trade monopoly, you'd receive 500 gold bezants instead of just 200 from trade relations.

Your other stats will be forthcoming.

Genoese stats are up. IC thread is up. Lets get things moving. :D

I'll be unable to post right away in the IC thread, but will post as soon as I can.

I must apologize - we are leaving earlier than what I had expected [tonight], so I will have to drop out of this. The person who wanted to do the Fatimids is free to do so. Sorry for the inconvenience, but I wouldn't want to detain you from enjoying this RP. And God knows when we'll back anyway - we may never come back :D

I must apologize - we are leaving earlier than what I had expected [tonight], so I will have to drop out of this. The person who wanted to do the Fatimids is free to do so. Sorry for the inconvenience, but I wouldn't want to detain you from enjoying this RP. And God knows when we'll back anyway - we may never come back :D

No problem, thanks for admitting it and not leaving us all out to dry. I will see to it that you're replaced. However if you do choose to come back, a city-state may be open for you to rp or maybe a mercenary company.

Thanks for the Stat update, Thrash. I can't wait to move the pope's troops around the seas (and hopefully eventually get a merchant shipping fleet sailing some trade runs to Crusader troops :) ).

Thanks for the Stat update, Thrash. I can't wait to move the pope's troops around the seas (and hopefully eventually get a merchant shipping fleet sailing some trade runs to Crusader troops :) ).

Hmmm... Don't forget about European rivals, though. Wouldn't want to leave yourself undefended.

New Manth is quite right. I may have the Holy Roman Emperor interfere with your city politics from time to time, just to make things interesting. Also, as moderator of the rp, I will be making some rules about sailing. Since storms are there, some ships will be lost. Not a lot, but enough that it will be notable.

Where could we keep track with alliances and treaties? Maybe we should make a thread.

Where could we keep track with alliances and treaties? Maybe we should make a thread.

I'll add a section to the rules in the second post, first page of this thread. I would like to keep everything as compact as possible for neccesity.

Hey! Easy on the treaties, people, unless you want to spend the whole RP in ass-numbing treaty negotiations. ;)

Really, though neogitations make sense, and were all too common in the time period we'll be playing in.


Ass-numbing is the right way to put it. Simple, straight-forward agreements please.

Okay so the Atabeks would be direclty east of Edessa, around Mosul, if I'm not mistaken. Right?


Which would put you directly east of me...........buddy ;)

Question: total military for AC is 8,000. Am I to understand that these have already been raised and 'paid for' and all I have to do is maintain them? Which would be nice so I can raise more.........

I'm finding it pretty difficult to find information about Mahmud II online. I'm especially looking for what family he has (so far, I think he has at least a daughter), as well as the territorial extent (specifically whether there are any northern ports I own, past the Bosporus - I know I have no Mediterranean coastline right now though), and what relations are with other Muslim rulers (Britannica says that Mahmud appointed Zengi, but the Wikipedia article on the Seljuks doesn't even have him as the Great Sultan).

Anyone have some good websites/books to recommend?

How far is Crac des Chevaliers from Jerusalam?..in miles..

Question: total military for AC is 8,000. Am I to understand that these have already been raised and 'paid for' and all I have to do is maintain them? Which would be nice so I can raise more.........

They're already raised and done, all you have to do is maintain them.

Osteia: If my guestimating powers don't deceive me, I would hazard that Krak de Chevaliers is 200 to 275 miles away. By horse, going non-stop, getting fresh mounts in every major city, would take at least 5-7 days.

They're already raised and done, all you have to do is maintain them.

Osteia: If my guestimating powers don't deceive me, I would hazard that Krak de Chevaliers is 200 to 275 miles away. By horse, going non-stop, getting fresh mounts in every major city, would take at least 5-7 days.


Ok cool, thank you...i belive my first post to be alright for starters. I needed to know the distance so i know when messengers arrive/reinforcements and what not...

Would it be possible for me to capture Baghdad?

Would it be possible for me to capture Baghdad?

I am not sure...but you do have quite a large force..hehe.

Would it be possible for me to capture Baghdad?Quite possible as some of us do control lands in Mesmpotamia and also it is a target, though to attack it would take a large forces as their is still a Caliph there who has the support of a large number of Moslems.

Just letting you know, Genoa is always open for your trade and transport needs :)

Query, Thrashia, typo?, why we using cogs when the galley was the main weapon of the day and the cog, for the most part, was used in the Atlantic, Baltic, and North Sea as the galleys were acutally still the main weapons of day, but were not as sea worthy as cogs.

I wish to establish trade with Genoa...my castle sits right by the river and i have direct access to the sea from there. I will set it up Icily...

Cool, thanks.

There i edited, a vessel with a diplomat on board is going to Genoa to discuss terms of trade and friendship between our peoples.

Query, Thrashia, typo?, why we using cogs when the galley was the main weapon of the day and the cog, for the most part, was used in the Atlantic, Baltic, and North Sea as the galleys were acutally still the main weapons of day, but were not as sea worthy as cogs.

It's easier for me just to have them be Cogs. Though I could probably make Knaars be Galleys instead...but for now, just keep it as it.

I must say though, good opening posts for the rp..this should be interesting to see where this goes and how it develops.

My faction is open to relations aswell, as you are all aware i control a key point, Krak des Chevaliers, i control the road to the Mediterranean..it's also the only route to Antioch and Beirut...

I replied to your post, Osteia.

Hum... no decent info at the local library either, and decent stuff on Seljuk history from Amazon seems to be running $100-$200. I think I shall just improvise where it comes to family and such. I think I've figured out the relationship with Zengi, and it seems fairly similar to the Damascus-Egypt relationship, except that Zengi and Damascus were at each other's throats.

Still need to know if I have any Black Sea ports, though.

I replied to your post, Osteia.

Ok, im on it...

Hum... no decent info at the local library either, and decent stuff on Seljuk history from Amazon seems to be running $100-$200. I think I shall just improvise where it comes to family and such. I think I've figured out the relationship with Zengi, and it seems fairly similar to the Damascus-Egypt relationship, except that Zengi and Damascus were at each other's throats.

Still need to know if I have any Black Sea ports, though.

You control the seaport of Sinop on the coast. Once it was a greek city, then captured by romans, then by the byzantines, and then by the Seljuks.

Candistan: I have replyed...

Thrashia: How long would it take me to find out that you have occupied Aleppo?

Week and a half, two weeks.

Also, I added a new map to the Reference Link section in the second post, first page. You should probably check it out.

Ok, i will look now...

Thrashia: How long would it take me to find out that you have occupied Aleppo?

Week and a half, two weeks.

Also, I added a new map to the Reference Link section in the second post, first page. You should probably check it out.

I cheaked it out, interesting...but i don't have nearly enough troops to garrison all those forts yet, therefore i will build myself up from Krac des Chevaliers...

Those names and dates are helpful though, thank you.

What's the status of Cyprus during this time period?

What's the status of Cyprus during this time period?

Under Byzantine rule. They have a sizeable garrison there along with the majority of their fleet, which btw, I forgot to add. The Byzantines have a fleet of about forty+ cogs and knaars that are stationed at Cyprus, free of maintenance costs.

Bump. Does anyone know if they have a friend or someone who can rp as Egypt?

Where is Zandara? And under who's command? I can't seem to find any info on it on Google.

Zandara, also known as Zerdana, is a minor castle just within Antioch territory, near Aleppo and north of my castle of Ma'arrat (which is also right on the border).

Bump. Does anyone know if they have a friend or someone who can rp as Egypt?

Maybe...

If not, maybe you could handle it for the first round (you seem like a level-headed guy and not likely to just use it to give yourself advantages), and then if anyone gets knocked out early we could give them Egypt, so that way they could continue to RP?

Hum... no decent info at the local library either, and decent stuff on Seljuk history from Amazon seems to be running $100-$200. I think I shall just improvise where it comes to family and such. I think I've figured out the relationship with Zengi, and it seems fairly similar to the Damascus-Egypt relationship, except that Zengi and Damascus were at each other's throats.

Still need to know if I have any Black Sea ports, though.:eek:

Zandara, also known as Zerdana, is a minor castle just within Antioch territory, near Aleppo and north of my castle of Ma'arrat (which is also right on the border).

I thought that Ma'arrat was in my territory? Hmmm....one of the maps shows is as so. Perhaps its incorrect on the map, or do the border lines not represent areas of complete control for the princes?

Xeraph, you have a TG.

Xeraph, you have a TG.

ooc: as do you....


http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=image:119kilikian1080-1199.gif
http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=image:124kilikia1199-1375.gif



shit....for some reason the 1st map doesn't come up. go to the 2nd one and click below it on 'Armenian Maps' and you'll see the earlier map of AC way down on the left. I printed copies so I can constantly refer to them.

Im going to assist the army heading for Tripoli...

If you wish the approaching army can use Krac de Chevaliers as a staging point?..the army would have been marching for quite some time and the fort is not far from Tripoli..also i can offer some assistance to the cause.

I have sent dispatch riders to deliver the message...it's up to you..

If you wish the approaching army can use Krac de Chevaliers as a staging point?..the army would have been marching for quite some time and the fort is not far from Tripoli..also i can offer some assistance to the cause.

I have sent dispatch riders to deliver the message...it's up to you..


It's OK w/me. TG Hitmen with your offer

It's OK w/me. TG Hitmen with your offer

Ok, doing so now...

Perhaps a discussion/debate of the assault could take place at Krac de Chevaliers?

People can state how they feel, etc.

Perhaps a discussion/debate of the assault could take place at Krac de Chevaliers?

People can state how they feel, etc.

I agree...

Perhaps a discussion/debate of the assault could take place at Krac de Chevaliers?

People can state how they feel, etc.

I think it's kind of late for discussion. Antioch and Cilicia are marching on Tripoli with the help of the Temlars and Hospitallers. Byzantium may also join in. Get in w/us and get your share of the loot....er, glory!

Im sure the matter COULD be discussed at Krac de Chevaliers..but who says it would do any good to talk about it, i think war is the only way unless the count of Tripoli surrenders the city to us, an act such as this would be considered disgraceful and unheard of..he has defyed the very laws our factions stand for...it cannot be ignored..

I say the meeting at the fortress will work out all the details, Raymond is ready to act with his fellow Christians and their allies...

OOC:Very well. It is settled. Tripoli however will NOT be looted. Neither will any of the other currently Christian lands that we are merely securing for Christianity.
I cannot emphasise how much we must not loot them. It will devalue our cause.
The Kingdom of Jerusalem will take all of Tripoli south of said city whilst the Principality of Antioch will have the city and all lands to the North. The Hospitallers fortress will remain theirs of course.
A discussion on tactics and strategy will need to be held. I believe Krac de Chevaliers will be an ideal place. But we must move fast if we are to avoid bloodshed. This must be done before IC word can reach Bertrand and allow him to rally any other forces to his banner.

OOC:Very well. It is settled. Tripoli however will NOT be looted. Neither will any of the other currently Christian lands that we are merely securing for Christianity.
I cannot emphasise how much we must not loot them. It will devalue our cause.
The Kingdom of Jerusalem will take all of Tripoli south of said city whilst the Principality of Antioch will have the city and all lands to the North. The Hospitallers fortress will remain theirs of course.
A discussion on tactics and strategy will need to be held. I believe Krac de Chevaliers will be an ideal place. But we must move fast if we are to avoid bloodshed. This must be done before IC word can reach Bertrand and allow him to rally any other forces to his banner.


well, technically, what forces could he gather to himself aside from muslims? after him, theyr'e next.......

and as far as looting, a decree that looters will be impaled and left to rot in the sun should be enough of a deterrent.....

OOC: My guy, and about 2,000 knight's, and 1,500 men-at arms will ride out to Krac de Chevilers to meet with allied forces and talk about the stratgey of the attack.

I agree with the terms. If we can move into the city and secure it without casulties on ANY side that is the ideal direction we should go, there is no need of bloodshed but if Bertrand returns he should be detained and put before trial....

I suggest intercepting my dispatches and comming to the fortress as soon as possible.

Also Any of my men caught looting will suffer the consiquences specifyed.

Under Byzantine rule. They have a sizeable garrison there along with the majority of their fleet, which btw, I forgot to add. The Byzantines have a fleet of about forty+ cogs and knaars that are stationed at Cyprus, free of maintenance costs.

I just found this...*Hugs Thrashia*

Knaars and cogs both, eh? How man knaars and how many cogs? Or do I decide?

Very well. We may as well discuss here and then just say "its done" on the IC thread. So that our plans remain relatively secret Ive sent out TG's to the Templars and Hospitallers with my thoughts for action, and Ill send them to Xeraph as well once we have agreed!

I have replyed to you telegram ^^^

i am aware of my place in the plan, sounds good to me.

Has the details concerning the king and the Templars been TG'd to them? ..just cheaking....

Well I feel that it would be apt to continue at pace since it would take sometime for Bertrand to get news, it would probably come through his Muslim hosts as I can't see a Christian messenger getting through their lands alive to him.

I do however feel that I should wait for Thrashia's comments on how many castles will join Antioch voluntarily and how many will remain loyal to a probably excommunicated ruler. I suspect not many, but shall see.

Does anybody know roughly how long it would take for my men to march from Antioch to Tripoli via Krac de Chevelliers? Obviously with the heat it would be quite difficult conditions, yet I am confident that Roger can make a quick speed of advance. From the maps I think three weeks to the Hospitallers and a further week to Tripoli, however I am completely open to suggestion.

Edit: They have been informed yes.

I do however feel that I should wait for Thrashia's comments on how many castles will join Antioch voluntarily and how many will remain loyal to a probably excommunicated ruler.


Are you sure he would be excommunicated? I mean, for all anyone knows he might not be seeking an alliance with Damascus at all - maybe he has gone to try to convince them to attack another Muslim faction, for example.

Well I feel that it would be apt to continue at pace since it would take sometime for Bertrand to get news, it would probably come through his Muslim hosts as I can't see a Christian messenger getting through their lands alive to him.

I do however feel that I should wait for Thrashia's comments on how many castles will join Antioch voluntarily and how many will remain loyal to a probably excommunicated ruler. I suspect not many, but shall see.

Does anybody know roughly how long it would take for my men to march from Antioch to Tripoli via Krac de Chevelliers? Obviously with the heat it would be quite difficult conditions, yet I am confident that Roger can make a quick speed of advance. From the maps I think three weeks to the Hospitallers and a further week to Tripoli, however I am completely open to suggestion.

Edit: They have been informed yes.

Ok, looks good to me! my men will have the roads covered, nothing is getting in or out without us knowing. Also Krac de Chevalliers rests high above the valley..we have the eyes, anything that moves we will see it before hand.

And..

You know of the request you sent to me Independant Hitmen? i have that covered, it will be done quietly and swiftly...

New Manth: Well we have received news that he does wish to make an alliance with the Muslim's, therefore we will have to ask him won't we :)...what we are doing now are nessasary pre-cautions...as i see it..

OOC: Well he might not be. I believe that if my character heard of this he would assume the worst. A christian monarch riding to a muslim's capital is unheard of I believe, at least I would think so. Besides the die are cast. Either way he is talking on friendly terms with them which would be heavily frowned upon and by going to them shows he is subservient to Damascus. Historically Tripoli is absorbed by Antioch, its just happening a little early.

Xeraph, in response to the first TG you sent me, Byzantium is going to remain largely quiet for now. We are just now dealing with some concerns which are close to home.

We still need an Egypt eh...

I'll ask some people i know if they want it unless som1 claims it soon..

Luslyvania you've got an (OOC) telegram waiting.

Luslyvania you've got an (OOC) telegram waiting.

I have responded to it. Expect an additional telegram from me soon.

I have to log out for now, guys. Back later, though.

I have to log out for now, guys. Back later, though.

Ok c ya later.

I will try and put up another IC post later tonight, in a bit of a rush now.

Any chance of seeing the rules on fortifications soon? I figure I will make like the Spartans and let my army be my fortifications, but I'm still interested to see them.

Maybe...

If not, maybe you could handle it for the first round (you seem like a level-headed guy and not likely to just use it to give yourself advantages), and then if anyone gets knocked out early we could give them Egypt, so that way they could continue to RP?

That is indeed a viable option, for someone knocked out early. Which considering the circumstances as of right now seems all too soon.

I thought that Ma'arrat was in my territory? Hmmm....one of the maps shows is as so. Perhaps its incorrect on the map, or do the border lines not represent areas of complete control for the princes?

It depends really. The castle fell to Crusaders in 1126, but right now the year is still 1123 and we control the course of the war, so as of right now it is still in my possession, if a tenuous one.


@ All concerning Tripoli:

Seeing as news travels much slower in ancient times than now-a-days, it would take roughly the time it took Betrand to travel from Tripoli to Damascus (4-7 days journey, plus the five days the messenger took to get from Damascus to Triploi) before any other Crusader state would be aware of the Count's current location and activity.

So the dinner conversation taking place right now is happening in the past, so to speak, to keep everything on a relative plain of explanation. The week it took Betrand to arrive in Damascus, the day he spends there, and the week back means that he will be back in his lands by the time any other Christian lord and his troops are marching northwards to investigate the activity of their fellow Christian.

Another note must be made that any such mobilization by so many different lords will be greatly noticed by Anushtakin and Zengi, which could make things even more tense.

However in the event of the other Christian armies crossing the border, or from Hospitaller lands, the following fortresses and castles would most likely open their gates peacefully:

To Antioch: Al-Marqab, Montterrand
To Jerusalem: Jbail, Batroun

The castles of Tripoli, Archas, Chastel Ruge, and Tartous would keep their gates shut, their loyalty (under Feudalism) remaining stronger to the Count.


Any chance of seeing the rules on fortifications soon? I figure I will make like the Spartans and let my army be my fortifications, but I'm still interested to see them.

They'll be up soon. Also I will be making some rules regarding the movement of armies and time it takes moving them, since the larger the body of men, the longer it takes them to go anywhere.

Ok...**Read the above, and understood**

Calizorinstan: I await your post :P

And all others arriving at Krac de Chevaliers, it will be quite the troop build up...

Right, Ive read and understood.

Thrasia the thing with the castle is cool, I think the map I'm using is based in 1130, so its a little ahead of time at the moment!

We are assuming that Bertrand does come right back and not "go native" of course. It appears we must await the Count of Tripoli's next post. As he is back an emissary will have to be sent demanding him to cede the lands to Antioch and Jerusalem or face some form of sanction.

What side would the Pope fall on I wonder? (Open Q to all participants really!)

Hey King of Jerusalem, :p

I know you said you would accept a trade and nonagression treaty with me OOC, but would you mind mentioning your acceptance IC? Thanks

Also, I am wondering if my forces should be more focused on cavalry and archers, which seem to have been the Seljuk specialty. Currently most of my men are men-at-arms.

Right now I have 1900 cavalry and 27,000 infantry. I was thinking maybe 3,000 cavalry and a few thousand archers, coming out of the numbers of infantry of course.

New Manth, I TGed you.

I do not have alot of men, but the ones i do have are Elite..capible of hand to hand or using their archery skills...(Most are Knights)

I have roughly 3000..or a little more, but i only have one fort that is impossible to take over.

New Manth, I TGed you.

Replied, and replied to your reply.

I'd be game, but have to check with the other party.

Yeah, I will get around to it when I have the time, as soon as I get a good chunk, I write something up for you about my acceptance.

New Manth, I TGed you.

Reply to your latest TG is in the works. I'm examining the maps now.

Sent out a battery of TGs, including a reply to your latest one Turbikistan.

Manth, I just replied to that last TG you sent me about 30 minutes ago.

EDIT: I've sent two telegrams, actually, one OOC and one IC. Happy reading.

Manth, I just replied to that last TG you sent me about 30 minutes ago.

And again to you.

And again to you.

Back to you again, and I included my army's OOB, just to make sure you know what those fighting beside you are working with.

I'm not quite ready to give an OOB, because I'm waiting on Thresh's word on the archers and cavalry. But I've forwarded my general plan.

I'm not quite ready to give an OOB, because I'm waiting on Thresh's word on the archers and cavalry. But I've forwarded my general plan.

Everything looks good right now. I'll see about writing my next post up soon.

Hey, I have about 40 minutes left and maybe could get back on tonight.

Want to finish the wedding while we wait for Xeraph and Thrash? I have been meaning to get to that.

Hey, I have about 40 minutes left and maybe could get back on tonight.

Want to finish the wedding while we wait for Xeraph and Thrash? I have been meaning to get to that.

I'm for that. You lead and I'll follow. Manuel is already in Nicaea. I'm playing him as being fifteen, which in those horribly dark days was acceptable marriage age for royalty, I'm told. I'm doing this as it struck me as likely that Mahmud's daughter, the one Manuel is getting hitched with, cannot be an incredibly old lady right now if she isn't married already to somebody.

Remember, back in those days a prince might lead an army in the field at only sixteen. If he can lead men to battle, he can marry.

Yah sounds perfectly reasonable to me

I have to head out now, but feel free to post the caravan's reception in Nicaea. I doubt anything will go amiss on the way, as the thing is heavily guarded.

Yah sounds perfectly reasonable to me

I have to head out now, but feel free to post the caravan's reception in Nicaea. I doubt anything will go amiss on the way, as the thing is heavily guarded.

I have to head out soon myself, but I'll respond when I get back.

Manth, just in case you had forgotten, I think people can pretty well figure out what we're doing now ICly, so you can update that list in the IC thread showing what relations you have with neighboring countries.

Expect my reception of the young Muslim princess soon. Can I get some information on the lass?

Manth, just in case you had forgotten, I think people can pretty well figure out what we're doing now ICly, so you can update that list in the IC thread showing what relations you have with neighboring countries.

Expect my reception of the young Muslim princess soon. Can I get some information on the lass?

What exactly are the plans of the Byzantines and the Seljuks? TG me the details so I can understand your purpose. Thanks.

What exactly are the plans of the Byzantines and the Seljuks? TG me the details so I can understand your purpose. Thanks.

I'll do that.

Alright, gotcha. However please, in the IC thread, make it a bit more clear as to the position of your armies. From what I read I didn't really know what was happening or where it was taking place.

Also, I am wondering if my forces should be more focused on cavalry and archers, which seem to have been the Seljuk specialty. Currently most of my men are men-at-arms.

Right now I have 1900 cavalry and 27,000 infantry. I was thinking maybe 3,000 cavalry and a few thousand archers, coming out of the numbers of infantry of course.

Making sure it isn't buried.

Some of the obfuscation was deliberate (I was trying to position my men so that, to an observer, they could have been preparing to invade any of my 3 border states), but now that the chips are down I will make the position of my forces clear IC. OOC they are marching toward Sis from the north, and will probably run into Hadjin and Vahka fortresses on the way.

I'm going to make a few changes in my marching plan, Manth. Nothing serious really, just a few detours to secure my marching route and supply lines. I'll see you in Sis.

Making sure it isn't buried.

Some of the obfuscation was deliberate (I was trying to position my men so that, to an observer, they could have been preparing to invade any of my 3 border states), but now that the chips are down I will make the position of my forces clear IC. OOC they are marching toward Sis from the north, and will probably run into Hadjin and Vahka fortresses on the way.

According to the first page, you have 1,900 Malmuks and 23,000 men-at-arms. Not 27 000.

I may not be able to post today for a while. I have work to get done, but I'll be back as soon as I can.

According to the first page, you have 1,900 Malmuks and 23,000 men-at-arms. Not 27 000.

Whoops my bad for looking in haste. 23000. Hum... don't think this will change my plans, much, though. Just mean a somewhat weaker border with Edessa.

I have a few questions about the 70,000 limit on recruiting. Sorry for all the questions :p

Is this a limit on army size (we can never have more than 70,000 men in the army), or on total recruiting (we can never add more than 70,000 more men to our current armies)
Also, if we conquer another province can we recruit additional men from there?

Whoops my bad for looking in haste. 23000. Hum... don't think this will change my plans, much, though. Just mean a somewhat weaker border with Edessa.

I have a few questions about the 70,000 limit on recruiting. Sorry for all the questions :p

Is this a limit on army size (we can never have more than 70,000 men in the army), or on total recruiting (we can never add more than 70,000 more men to our current armies)
Also, if we conquer another province can we recruit additional men from there?

For now the rule is that you can never have more than 70k men. Though concerning the conquest of other nations, I may add additional rules when the time comes.

I've missied a little bit of this, so can I have a brief overview of the situation please?

I've missied a little bit of this, so can I have a brief overview of the situation please?

Byzantium and Seljuk Empire have tied together in alliance, and are preparing to invade Armenian Cicilia.

Count Betrand of Tripoli has left his lands on a peaceful mission to Damascus to speak with Anushtakin.

In Betrand's absence other Christian lords, the King of Jerusalem and the Prince of Antioch, aided by the Hospitaller Knights and the Knights Templar, have prepared to invade and cease the lands of Tripoli, fearing that Betrand may be a traitor to the Christian faith.

The Atabeks and the Syrians (aka Damascus, me) have signed a treaty and are set on their own course of things.

Egypt has yet to do anything because we still dont have anyone to play them.

Thats about it.

===

Fortress rules and army movement rules going up today, 2nd post, first page.

Is it possible for Genoa to later on start up a series of trading posts run by the Genoa Trading Guild in the middle east?

Also, I am wondering if my forces should be more focused on cavalry and archers, which seem to have been the Seljuk specialty. Currently most of my men are men-at-arms.

Right now I have 1900 cavalry and 23,000 infantry. I was thinking maybe 3,000 cavalry and a few thousand archers, coming out of the numbers of infantry of course.

Corrected man-at-arms numbers.

Is it possible for Genoa to later on start up a series of trading posts run by the Genoa Trading Guild in the middle east?

Sounds fine to me. You'd have to make contact with the Muslim leaders though, and gain their approval.

Corrected man-at-arms numbers.


lol Manth.

I'd invade Egypt right now while there isn't anybody coordinating there and take it over, but that would be horribly assinine and childish...my norm, but I'll abstain.

I'd invade Egypt right now while there isn't anybody coordinating there and take it over, but that would be horribly assinine and childish...my norm, but I'll abstain.

Good choice, because if you did I would have to rp the defences of Egypt. And they have a navy that can, if it comes out, nearly rival the Geonese...

Good choice, because if you did I would have to rp the defences of Egypt. And they have a navy that can, if it comes out, nearly rival the Geonese...

I figured the situation might be like that.

By the way, you stated in the rules that a trade agreement increases yearly revinue by some 200 Bezants, but how do you calculate when years pass to keep track on how many Bezants we have?

I'm hoping to build up an emergency monetary reserve, something to use on rainy days when I need large troop level increases and so on in short time periods.

EDIT: I loved that last IC post you made, by the way. The end made me laugh.

I figured the situation might be like that.

By the way, you stated in the rules that a trade agreement increases yearly revinue by some 200 Bezants, but how do you calculate when years pass to keep track on how many Bezants we have?

I'm hoping to build up an emergency monetary reserve, something to use on rainy days when I need large troop level increases and so on in short time periods.


I myself keep a word document (Every rp I do I have saved in text documents in case I need them and the forums have erased them for some reason) of my expenses; just stating the number of troops I have, how much total it will be to maintain them, and then also a number of my left-over money (your rainy day fund).

If I were you, I'd just make such a document and tack on 200+ to your profits each year. And I am going to make everyone spell out in plain sentences who they are allied to, who they are trading with, and who they are at war with so I can update that list on the second page concerning state relations.


EDIT: I loved that last IC post you made, by the way. The end made me laugh.

Thanks.

Among the good deeds which the Armenian people has done towards the church and the Christian world, it should especially be stressed that, in those times when the Christian princes and the warriors went to retake the Holy Land, no people or nation, with the same enthusiasm, joy and faith came to their aid as the Armenians did, who supplied the crusaders with horses, provision and guidance. The Armenians assisted these warriors with their utter courage and loyalty during the Holy wars.

-Pope Gregory XIII
(Ecclesia Romana, 1584)

I know it came later, but I think it shows how the Vatican, etc. felt about Armenia. Also I imagine they have quite a bit of favour with the Crusader States.

Considering Byzantine was Orthodox Christian (I think?) I don't know how much power the Pope would have over them, but I think his power over the Crusaders would be pretty big, and virtually absolute over the Templars.

Basically, my knowledge is very limited, I defer to Thrashia, I was just wondering what his/her thoughts were on the commands/requests/official status of the Pope?

I appreciate the information, Thrashia, and just to be sure, how do you define a year's time in this RP?

Byzantium is allied with Rum, an alliance soon to be sealed by the marriage in Byzantine Nicaea of a Byzantine prince and a Seljuk princess.

Rum and Byzantium are taking part in a joint invasion into Armenia, with the long-term goal of capturing and subjugating it.

Oh, hum, another question.

I have 10,300 surplus gold this year, counting trade income. If I spend some on paying new troops, how soon are they available? If it's soon/immediately, I can and will commit an extra 20,000+ men to invading Armenia, in addition to the slightly under 20,000 men I'm invading with now.

Here's my list of diplomatic relations:

The Kingdom of Jerusalem (trade and nonagression treaty)
Syria (trade)
Damascus (trade)
Antioch (trade)
Byzantium (trade and alliance)
Tripoli (trade and nonagression treaty)

Makes for a total of 1,200 a year trade.

-Pope Gregory XIII
(Ecclesia Romana, 1584)

I know it came later, but I think it shows how the Vatican, etc. felt about Armenia. Also I imagine they have quite a bit of favour with the Crusader States.

Considering Byzantine was Orthodox Christian (I think?) I don't know how much power the Pope would have over them, but I think his power over the Crusaders would be pretty big, and virtually absolute over the Templars.

Basically, my knowledge is very limited, I defer to Thrashia, I was just wondering what his/her thoughts were on the commands/requests/official status of the Pope?

Byzantium was with the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church. As such, to my knowledge the Pope had little to no real authority there.

Here's my list of diplomatic relations:

The Kingdom of Jerusalem (trade and nonagression treaty)
Syria (trade)
Damascus (trade)
Antioch (trade)
Byzantium (trade and alliance)
Tripoli (trade and nonagression treaty)

Makes for a total of 1,200 a year trade.

You would lose that Trade to Antioch upon invasion of Armenia, and as I shall soon control Tripoli you shall lose that as well ;)
Antioch is also allied with Armenia. So you will be at war with us too.


EDIT: I feel I should also state my finances/military.

(All figures are in Gold Bezants unless otherwise stated)

Currently paying maintenance for 2,900knights (11600GB) and 11,000men at arms (1100GB). Total Maintenance is 12700GB. Leaving 6300 for recruitment.

Currently recruiting: 15,000 Men-at-Arms (3000GB) and 1,200 Archers(1200GB). For a total recruitment cost of 4200GB.

A gift of 500 to the Templars and likewise the Hospitallers leaves 1,100 in the treasury.

Add to this 1,100 the profits from trade (200 from each of Armenia and Jerusalem, plus shall we say half a year from Rum) and we have 1,600GB’s left in our treasury.

Ill have an IC post up sometime later today I hope.

He will lose the trade, sure, but I say the gains are worth the loss.

You would lose that Trade to Antioch upon invasion of Armenia, and as I shall soon control Tripoli you shall lose that as well ;)
Antioch is also allied with Armenia. So you will be at war with us too.


EDIT: I feel I should also state my finances/military.

(All figures are in Gold Bezants unless otherwise stated)

Currently paying maintenance for 2,900knights (11600GB) and 11,000men at arms (1100GB). Total Maintenance is 12700GB. Leaving 6300 for recruitment.

Currently recruiting: 15,000 Men-at-Arms (3000GB) and 1,200 Archers(1200GB). For a total recruitment cost of 4200GB.

A gift of 500 to the Templars and likewise the Hospitallers leaves 1,100 in the treasury.

Add to this 1,100 the profits from trade (200 from each of Armenia and Jerusalem, plus shall we say half a year from Rum) and we have 1,600GB’s left in our treasury.

Ill have an IC post up sometime later today I hope.

You forgot to add the maintenance cost for these new troops which would add an extra 1500 GB for the men at arms and 360 Gb for the archers. Though I might be wrong.

Raising my total troop maintenances costs I would say it would come to 10,500 GBs and I have begun recruiting 9,000 men-at-arms, 3,000 GBs,

Let me get this straight.

Antioch, Jerusalem and the Hospitallers and Templars are worried about Tripoli and are thus securing his lands incase he has sided with the enemies of Christendom?

Byzantine and Rum [?] are attacking Armenia Cicilia for land/greed?

Who exactly is attacking Edessa?

Also, perhaps we should make a thread for each Nation/State being invaded, because the main thread is 'gonna get pretty confusing?

Or at the least title the top of our posts with whatever conflict they refer to?

Also, is there a way to contact Xeraph, as I can't seem to TG him?

I didn't think we paid maintenance costs on them until the next full year because they will be introduced gradually over the one we are on?? However if that is incorrect I will have to do some changing or my recruitment numbers to avoid the overspend.

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Who exactly is attacking Edessa?

Zengi

IC post sometime today I hope. Blarg, busy...:(

Let me get this straight.

Antioch, Jerusalem and the Hospitallers and Templars are worried about Tripoli and are thus securing his lands incase he has sided with the enemies of Christendom?

Byzantine and Rum [?] are attacking Armenia Cicilia for land/greed?

Who exactly is attacking Edessa?

Also, perhaps we should make a thread for each Nation/State being invaded, because the main thread is 'gonna get pretty confusing?

Or at the least title the top of our posts with whatever conflict they refer to?

Also, is there a way to contact Xeraph, as I can't seem to TG him?


xeraph1@imap.cc

Right. I'm going to give a short explanation about the Byzantine Emperor's reasoning, why he has allied with the Muslim Seljuks and is now attacking a nation lead by a Christian.

He, like his father, Alexius I, feels that Byzantium was cheated when those leading the First Crusade broke the loyalty oaths they made to become the Emperor's vassals when they succeeded. He means to make the Christian Kingdoms stick to those promises by using his sword, as it seems that diplomacy is largely ineffective. When the ink fails, then it's time to shed some blood.

He also feels that Christians and Muslims should be at peace, and this is why he is marrying his son, Manuel to a Muslim princess, and allying his nation with the Seljuks.

Right. I'm going to give a short explanation about the Byzantine Emperor's reasoning, why he has allied with the Muslim Seljuks and is now attacking a nation lead by a Christian.

He, like his father, Alexius I, feels that Byzantium was cheated when those leading the First Crusade broke the loyalty oaths they made to become the Emperor's vassals when they succeeded. He means to make the Christian Kingdoms stick to those promises by using his sword, as it seems that diplomacy is largely ineffective. When the ink fails, then it's time to shed some blood.

He also feels that Christians and Muslims should be at peace, and this is why he is marrying his son, Manuel to a Muslim princess, and allying his nation with the Seljuks.


Well, if he were a KNOWLEDGABLE Christian as opposed to simply being a PROFESSING Christian, he would have known the Scripture that says, "There is a way that seems right to a man who's end is death". It wasn't too long afterwards that AC took over much of the southern portion of the Byz empire and the Byz Empire eventually ceased to exist.

Well, if he were a KNOWLEDGABLE Christian as opposed to simply being a PROFESSING Christian, he would have known the Scripture that says, "There is a way that seems right to a man who's end is death". It wasn't too long afterwards that AC took over much of the southern portion of the Byz empire and the Byz Empire eventually ceased to exist.

I know that, Xeraph, being a genuine Christian myself, but Christianity is a lot like many religions in that those individuals who practice it do not necessarily all believe exactly the same thing. I'm just looking to make this fun is all. That's why I'm here. To have a good time.