NationStates Jolt Archive

The year is 1913 and the Great War has raged for nearly two years. On one side is the Coalition: Imperial Germany, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Kingdom of Bulgaria, the Ottoman Empire, Imperial Japan, and the Kingdom of Siam. They are opposed by the Third Republic of France, Imperial Russia, the Kingdom of Spain, the Kingdom of Italy, the Kingdom of Greece, and the Kingdom of Rumania.

At his third Inaugural Address on March 4th, President Theodore Roosevelt of the United States of America called for a general cease fire between the warring factions and proposed a number of terms for peace. Upon further debate, the majority of the relevant powers have agreed to meet.

So, the world's eyes turn to Arlington, Virginia and the old Robert E. Lee Mansion as the guns fall silent on May 1st. The talks are due to begin on May 12th, with the United States, United Kingdom, and representatives from the Scandinavian Regional Council as neutral moderators.

The United States will be represented by Secretary of State Albert Beveridge. It is not inconceivable that Teddy Roosevelt will sit in on a few sessions of talks as time allows.

(Note that these are a starting point, and that the point of talks is to negotiate)

Western Front: the provinces of Alsace and Lorraine should be returned to the Republic of France and the resources of the Saarland split between Germany and France. The remainder of occupied Germany will be returned to that nation.

Eastern Front: the three Baltic States should be given independence and a Poland should be created from Russian, Austrian, and German territory. All four of these new nations should remain unaligned and their neutrality in potential future conflicts respected. The remaining occupied Russian territory should be returned to that nation

Balkans: Greece reverts to pre-war border. Rumania gets 1939 border minus Transylvania (still Austrian). Rumanian army limited to 100,000 men, air force to one unit, and navy to no capital ships. Serbia can remain an Austrian province.

Ottoman Empire: Maintains all of Modern Turkey plus the bit of Thrace they had earlier. Kurdistan and Armenia become independent and other Arab lands under allied occupation.

Asia: Japan keeps no Russian territory. The Japanese Mongolian client state may remain independent using only territory that was Japanese before the start of the war. Conversely the Japanese may pay the Russians for the northern half of Sakhalin Island (15 points). Peace treaty between Imperial China and Japan. American economic pressures will end. (Note that these terms are harsher due to American hostility toward Japanese “opportunism”)

Colonies: Germans keep French Equatorial Africa but all other Colonies (with the following exception) revert to pre-war status. As the issue over French Indochina is so heated, the US proposes that Siam and France work that out as a separate issue so as to not derail the rest of the peace process. However, Washington would suggest an independent Indochina if possible.

Other: No reparations unless to make up for the shift from these terms or in reference to Indochina. (France may pay Germany to keep Equatorial Africa for example). Everybody has too much to worry about with clean up (and paying me back! :p ) to waste money on these. Investigations into Russian submarine warfare, Austrian actions in Serbia, and Ottoman actions in Armenia are to be commissioned by independent actors.

It was a relatively pleasant day, considering how the weather could sometimes be in May in northern Virginia thought Albert Beveridge as he walked up the front steps of Robert E. Lee's former house and in through the front doors. Too bad it will be humid again before too long though.

Still, President Roosevelt had not chosen the site for this conference based on its climate, but for its proximity to Washington and the symbolism of the house. Fifty years before, the United States had been fighting a war that threatened to destroy the nation. Now the US had developed into a real force for good in the world. If the Americans could put aside their differences and come together to form the Great Power that they were today, surely the Europeans could manage to show the same sort of patience in resolving their issues.

It would not be long before other delgates arrived. Beveridge busied himself making sure everything was in order. Roosevelt had expressed an interest in meeting the guests and the papers were following events closely. It would do well to make a good impression...

The Danish representatives arrive early, infact, apart from the Americans there are the only ones yet to arrive. Until times as such others do the Danish claim their seats and then start to discuss with the American's the current state of Danish-American relations which with the happenings over the last 6 or 7 years have been pretty good.

In fact the Danish representative send feelers out to engage American interest in further strengthening of relationships however the Danish are being very vague about how exactly the strengthening of relationships might occur.

The British Delegation arrives quickly with various representatives among whom include Sir Edward Grey, the Foreign Minister; the First Sea Lord, the Earl of Battenburg; and the Ambassadors to Germany, France, Russia and Japan, as well as several young MPs, including one Neville Chamberlain.

ooc notes
thread added to first page of the war thread

also, keep OOC stuff to a minimum please... explanation of bargaining poition or relevent events is fine, but no ooc bickering please

The Russian delegation arrives, headed by Baron Roman Romanovitch Rosen who, incidentally, has been serving as the Russian diplomat to America and was present at the mediation of the Russo-Japanese War. His aide is Alexei Nikolaevich Speyer, former diploma to Persia. With them are several diplomatic aides and escorts.

Rosen greets the other delegates warmly and begins preparing for the arrival of others.

Spanish delegates enter next, looking uncomfortable as the last time they were in an American held peace conference, they lost vast amounts of territory. It's an old twitch, and it only takes a few seconds to lose the uncomfortablness.

Antonio Maura y Montaner coughed into his hand as he sat down. The SPanish delegates showed the uniqueness of the SPanish government. Antonio had been appointed by the Prime Minister to be the peace delegate. A good representative of the Conservative Party of politics, he also seemed to remain aloof from the politics of the government itself.

Eduardo Dato Iradier was the former mayor of Madrid. He'd been the one who welcomed Teddy Roosevelt into the city. He let out one long sigh, seeing a changed world since he joined law school so many years ago. Of course Spanish soldiers were at risk here. Both diplomats were worried that someone would start acting like they'd wont he war wholeheartidly. THankfully the massive defeat of the Japanese was going to help there. But Germany, that could be a problem. Oh well, best to see that when they got here.

The Imperial Chinese government has been busy

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11961070&postcount=134

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11961023&postcount=258

Crown Prince Duan Qirui arrives in Washington after travelling across the Pacific on a US flagged fast packet ship, and then by rail from San Francisco to Washington DC.

Chinese Americans receive him very warmly in San Francisco, because in spite of his Imperial title, he is known to have pro constitutional monarchial leanings, and he is after all the man who beat the Japanese in battle.

Crown Prince Ferdinand and Crown Princess Marie of Rumania arrive with bodyguards and diplomatic staff in tow, having shortened their stay in Britain to come to the United States ahead of schedule in order to attend the peace conference on the behalf of the Rumanian Government-in-Exile.

They warmly greet Baron Rosen and the other delegates before taking their seats.

Emperor Franz Josef himself arrives for the conference along with a rather large party of advisors, bodyguards and other court members. While many in Austria-Hungary question the wisdom of such a move, the Emperor refuses to change his mind. And in the only European nation with a truly all-powerful monarchy, his word was law.

The Ottoman Government” Young Turk Govt" sends Grand Vizier Mehmed Talat Pasha to peace summit and he took his seat next to Emperor Franz Josef.


At Home, Young Turks Power base was unstable at best, the other factions( Pan Islamic, Young Ottomans and other Turkish Nationalist) of empire were busy blaming eachother for the failures of the Empire...its only matter of time, before they go after the Young Turks themselves.

Crown Prince Duan Qirui arrives in Washington after travelling across the Pacific on a US flagged fast packet ship, and then by rail from San Francisco to Washington DC.

Baron Rosen greets the Crown Prince enthusiastically, offering congratulations for the recent military victories over Japan in China.

"Your Highness, I would be remiss if I did not extend to you the warmest greetings and most heartfelt congratulations of the great victory you have achieved over the Japanese invaders from the Grand Duke and Prime Minister Stolypin. I do believe that both of our nations may look forward to a long and prosperous relationship."

Privately he also tells the Crown Prince that Russia is prepared to hand Sinkiang back to the Chinese should the Imperial government wish it.

Norway's representatives arrive and warmly greet the other delegates, especially their Danish compatriots (which is understandable, considering the relationship the two share). The Bratlie government has sent Minister of Foreign Affairs Johannes Irgens and a number of lesser officials to aid in the peace talks.

Apologies are given to the Americans, in private, before the conference begins. King Haakon V was unable to attend, as domestic issues govern a great deal of his time. PM Bratlie is held back for much the same reasons and the both are apologetic for the absence of more Norwegian representatives.

Baron Rosen greets the Crown Prince enthusiastically, offering congratulations for the recent military victories over Japan in China.

"Your Highness, I would be remiss if I did not extend to you the warmest greetings and most heartfelt congratulations of the great victory you have achieved over the Japanese invaders from the Grand Duke and Prime Minister Stolypin. I do believe that both of our nations may look forward to a long and prosperous relationship."

Privately he also tells the Crown Prince that Russia is prepared to hand Sinkiang back to the Chinese should the Imperial government wish it.

ooc
needless to say the Imperial Chinese government is onboard with that.. now to get the Japs out of Mongolia

The Japanese delegation, including Emperor Taisho arrives with no fanfare, and head straight to the conference. The heads of the Army and Navy come, the Naval Admiral gloqwing with pride after the string of victories, the Army General much more somber after the recent losses and the commiting of seppukku by the Head of Continental Asian commands and the death of general Konda, and secretly happy with the two month respite. An ambassador from Menjiang arrives, hapless at the probable destruction of his new nation.

The Spanish delegates welcome the Japanese delegates. "It seems our two nations finally drew blood against one another. You remind us what our own navy needs to accomplish. Of course you realize we'll ask for the Canaries back during this meeting. Seeing as they remain of little use to you. But we will bother with that later. Most of that will fall under Morrocan returns. Either way, welcome."

President Georges Clemenceau returns to Washington, D.C. for the second time in four months, along with Foreign Minister Théophile Delcassé, and greets his allies warmly. The Coalition delegates are met with a polite handshake, and a proper (and frigid) smile.

The Spanish delegates welcome the Japanese delegates. "It seems our two nations finally drew blood against one another. You remind us what our own navy needs to accomplish. Of course you realize we'll ask for the Canaries back during this meeting. Seeing as they remain of little use to you. But we will bother with that later. Most of that will fall under Morrocan returns. Either way, welcome."

Emperor Taisho nods absentmindedly and starts to wander off, and the Prime Minister hurridely apologizes to the Spanish delegate to hurries to direct Taisho toward the crowd of delegates.

OOC: Emperor Taisho suffered brain damage, and did some pretty odd stuff, read the wiki article

His Royal Highness Kyril, Prince of Preslav, will be arriving shortly to New York City on board the RMS Lusitania from Liverpool (most of the Journey had to be made on land from Bulgaria due to maritime situations in the Med), from there the party shall proceed to Washington DC.

The Japanese delegation, led by Yamamoto Gonnohyoe, the current prime minster, sidles up to the Austro-Hungarian and Turkish delegates and greets them warmly.

OOC: THat's cool. I picked my delegates from the possible Prime Ministers of Spain. Interesting lot really.

IC: The delegates blink in confusion, but accept the Prime Minister's apology. After all, he didn't say anything rude, he'd just nodded and left. Strange, but not insulting.

The Spanish delegates went towards the French delegates, welcomg their ally's and making sure to be extremelly friendly. They do mention a few concerns in Morocco, and state that France may want to watch the Moroccans as there are much more natives in French territory than in Spanish since the Spanish banished about 85% of their natives from the territories. (Most are probably in Rabat. Damn that's why I ended up with the problem. Great.)

tag

The Austro-Hungarian Empire calls on all nations currently at war to begin demobillizing their armed forces to prove their willingness for peace.

Baron Rosen coldly remarks that Russia will begin demobilizing once Austrian and German troops have withdrawn to their own respective borders and after the Japanese have withdrawn from all Russian territory.

He also suggests, since they have no one on their doorstep, that the Austrians demobilize first.

France agrees with the Austrian call for demobilization, but states that it will not move any troops from the lines until the Germans have demobilized along the Western Front, and the Turks begin to demobilize in the Middle East.

President Clemenceau and Foreign Minister Delcassé support the Russian proposition that Austria demobilize first.

Germany's rep points out that Germany has already begun demobilizing its reserves and has pulled all regular German units out of the free nations of the Ukraine, Poland and the Baltic states, their positions taken over by units from those nations.

(OOC: GB recieved the orders, hence Kordo's post, whats not mentioned is the fact that all the regulars pulled out of the East are repositioned on the Rhine and in the Alps.)EDIT: Not including garrisons units out East

Also offered is an immediate POW exchange, man for man, to show Germany's good faith.

The Austro-Hungarian Empire also withdraws its forces form the Ukraine and announces the demobilization of a majority of its army.

ooc:
Not exactly sure what constitues my reserves though........

Prime Minister Yamamoto Gonnohyoe smiled, with little warmth, "Japan will demobilize its reserve troops, but we will not pull out of any conquered lands until the Peace Conference has settled everything, as I'm sure the Empire of China will do"

Ottoman rep points out that Ottoman Army is already its demobilizing reserves corps.

Rosen points out that, under the terms currently dictated, Ukraine is still part of Russia and that no amount of bandits and rebels armed by the Germans will change that.

He also states that Russia will not discuss the borders of the Baltic States or Poland with Germany and will instead discuss them with Polish and Baltic representatives. The Germanic puppet state of the Ukraine is not recognized by Russia as a legitimate government.

In addition, Russia will remain mobilized until all territory currently under foriegn occupation is returned and the foriegn troops withdraw.


A request is sent to the commander of the Polish troops, politely asking them to withdraw from Belorussia as it is, after all, Russian territory.

Rosen points out that, under the terms currently dicated, Ukraine is still part of Russia and that no amount of bandits and rebels armed by the Germans will change that.

he also states that Russia will not discuss the borders of the Baltic States or Poland with Germany and will instead discuss them with Polish and Baltic representatives.

"The Germanic puppet state of the Ukraine is not recognized by Russia as a legitimate government."

Gonnohyoe points out that the terms are a start point to discuss, not the end all be all, and open to negotiation.

Germany points out that if Russia crosses into Coalition held territory, be it in Belarus, Ukraine or Latvia, it will be counted as a violation of the ceasefire, also pointed out is that Ukrainian(And Polish and Baltic for that matter) soldiers are considered just as highly as German, Austrian or TUrkish troops by all Coalition members.

Germany points out that if Russia crosses into Coalition held territory, be it in Belarus, Ukraine or Latvia, it will be counted as a violation of the ceasefire, also pointed out is that Ukrainian(And Polish and Baltic for that matter) soldiers are considered just as highly as German, Austrian or TUrkish troops by all Coalition members.

Rosen responds that Russian troops have no intention of violating the ceasefire agreement.

In addition, they are asking the Poles, not the Germans and as such does not concern them.

He also states that Russia will reoccupy any Russian territory that Japan withdraws from during the two month cease-fire.

Germany points out that if Russia crosses into Coalition held territory, be it in Belarus, Ukraine or Latvia, it will be counted as a violation of the ceasefire, also pointed out is that Ukrainian(And Polish and Baltic for that matter) soldiers are considered just as highly as German, Austrian or TUrkish troops by all Coalition members.

Gonnohyoe notes this includes Japanese held land

Gonnohyoe notes this includes Japanese held land

Rosen responds that the Russian Far East will be reoccupied and his government does not recognize any Japanese claim to the territory.

Russian troops will only do so, of course, if the Japanese troops withdraw. After all, he says, someone must be there to provide law and order and feed the civilians.

Rosen points out that, under the terms currently dictated, Ukraine is still part of Russia and that no amount of bandits and rebels armed by the Germans will change that.

He also states that Russia will not discuss the borders of the Baltic States or Poland with Germany and will instead discuss them with Polish and Baltic representatives. The Germanic puppet state of the Ukraine is not recognized by Russia as a legitimate government.

In addition, Russia will remain mobilized until all territory currently under foriegn occupation is returned and the foriegn troops withdraw.


A request is sent to the commander of the Polish troops, politely asking them to withdraw from Belorussia as it is, after all, Russian territory.

Jozef Pilduski, the interim President of the Republic of Poland, indicates that he will withdraw once the borders of Poland are settled AND a general peace agreement has been reached, and he would also consider any advance by Russian forces over the current cease fire line on the Dnieper River a violation of the cease fire

Jozef Pilduski, the interim President of the Republic of Poland, indicates that he will withdraw once the borders of Poland are settled AND a general peace agreement has been reached, and he would also consider any advance by Russian forces over the current cease fire line on the Dnieper River a violation of the cease fire

Baron Rosen graciously acknowledges this and says that Russian troops will remain in their positions.

Rosen responds that the Russian Far East will be reoccupied and his government does not recognize any Japanese claim to the territory.

Russian troops will only do so, of course, if the Japanese troops withdraw. After all, he says, someone must be there to provide law and order and feed the civilians.

ooc
any troop withdraw would be phased, with a covering force remaining in place until after everything else moves out

which means it will defend itself if advanced on. Have to be realistic here

OOC: Russian troops would only advance if there was nothing in front of them.

The French delegation circulates a detailed agenda with lists of guiding principles and problems to be addressed, ranked in order of importance.

French Agenda:

1. Polish and Baltic Borders
a) The Polish and Baltic delegates shall define their western and southern borders in regards to the German and Austro-Hungarian Empires.
b) The Polish and Baltic delegates shall define their eastern borders in regards to the Russian Empire.
c) For their own security, and for the greater security of the region, Poland and the Baltic States shall declare their neutrality in perpetuity. This neutrality shall be enforced by both Germany and Russia.

2. European Russia
a) Byelorussia
i. The occupied parts of Byelorussia shall be returned to Russia.
b) Ukraine
i. The parts of Ukraine currently in a state of rebellion against the lawful Russian government shall be reoccupied by the Russian military.

3. The Far East
a) China
i. Sinkiang will be returned to Imperial China by Russia. Southern Mongolia, plus everything currently occupied by Imperial Chinese forces, will be returned to Imperial China by Japan.
b) Northeast Asia
i. All Russian territory occupied by Japan is to be returned to Russia. Russia may purchase the southern half of Sakhalin Island. Port Arthur is to be returned to Russia as well.
c) Japan shall pay reparations to France for breaking the Franco-Japanese non-aggression pact (ooc: here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11756452&postcount=23)), with a minimum payment of enough to cover the replacement of French shipping lost to Japanese warships (ooc: 2 shipping units, 6 points)

4. Colonies
a) Asia
i. Indochina
1. France and Siam shall discuss the issue of Indochina and the French Indian Ocean Territories separately, and will agree to adhere to the other terms regarding eastern Asia.
b) Africa
i. All colonies will revert to original ownership, with the exceptions of French Equatorial Africa, which shall be ceded to Germany in exchange for the demilitarization and sharing of coal resources in the Saar region, and German Morocco, which will remain in Spanish hands. French West Africa, Madagascar, and the Canary Islands shall be returned to French, Italian, and Spanish control.

5. The Balkans
a) Austro-Hungary
i. Austro-Hungary shall keep Serbia and Transylvania as provinces.
b) Rumania
i. Rumania will be returned to pre-war borders, and gain Northern Dobruja in exchange for reparations to Bulgaria (ooc: one production center)
c) Other territorial issues
i. Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania shall return to previous borders, with the exceptions listed above (ooc: 1939 borders, with Kosovo and Macedonia to Albania)
d) Protection of Minorities
i. All Balkan states (including the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires) must sign a treaty protecting the rights of minorities within their borders. This treaty will include the promise not to commit acts of state terror, deprive people unlawfully of their land, conduct persecution on religious or ethnic grounds, conduct forced deportations, etc.

6. The Middle East
a) The Ottoman Empire
i. The Ottoman Empire shall be decreased in size to Anatolia and European Turkey (ooc: rl Turkey minus Armenia and Kurdistan).
ii. The Ottoman Empire shall sign another Non-Aggression Treaty with the Russian Empire.
iii. Kars shall be returned to the Russian Empire as payment for the Ottoman Empire violating its non-aggression pact with Russia.
iv. Kurdistan and Armenia will become independent nations.
v. Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine (ooc: includes Transjordan) will become territories jointly administered by Italy and France, with the exact areas of control to be worked out by those nations after the end of the war.
vi. Mesopotamia (minus Kurdistan) shall become the independent states of Baghdad and Basra, and shall lie within the Russian sphere of influence in the Middle East.

7. Alsace-Lorraine, Saar, and the Rhineland
a) Alsace-Lorraine
i. Alsace-Lorraine is a part of France, and will remain as such.
b) Saar
i. The Saar region shall be returned to Germany.
ii. As a condition for the return of the Saar, it must be kept demilitarized.
iii. France and Germany shall divide the Coal resources of the Saar between themselves.
c) The Rhineland
i. France, in keeping with its promises to return 100% of the German territory it occupies, will return the Rhineland to the German Empire.

The French delegates specify that some issues (the return of POWs, etc) are assumed to happen under the relevant international agreements, and thus are not included in the detailed agenda. It is also made clear that each of this points is to be discussed and negotiated in full in the order presented, and that each issue shall be settled before moving on to the next.

Rumania will gain Northern Dobruja in exchange for reparations to Bulgaria (ooc: one production center).

His Highness Kyril, prince of Preslave, indicates Bulgaria's willingness to consider this and indicates that the Rumanian Delegates have been indeed contacted to settle this matter prior to their violation of the Norweigan Sponsered Oslo Peace Treaty.

The Kingdom has been always willing to engage in negotiations regarding the transfer of land, most shown by still active negotiations for Macedonia.

We, however, must ask the conference to recognise Bulgaria's Claim to Salonika and Greek Macedonia as per the treaty of San Stefano (article 6) Between Russia, Serbia, Montenegro, Rumania and the Sublime Porte (OOC: which among other things defined the territory of Montenegro (article 1) and its independance (article 2) and also proclaimed the independance of Rumania (article 5) and its claim to Northern Dobrudja (article 19)).

Prince Kyril of Preslave also presents evidence of a Greek "Hellenisation" program in Bulgarian-claimed Greek Macedonia and questions Greek actions towards the minorities in the Region.

In addition the Prince reminds the Conference that both Rumania and Greece violated the Norweigan-sponsored Oslo Peace Treaty without any provocation whatsoever despite all diplomatic warnings issued to them, this was co-incidented with massive "jubilation" by the two nations for Russian Minor Victories.

The Conference is assured that they will hear now claims by the Rumanian delegate that they have been unjustly invaded, but are assured that they have definately and without question did violate the Oslo peace treaty...

...From the Greek delegate, they will hear claimes that they were obliged to support Rumania and "were forced to act to preserve the sacred soverignty of the Rumanian people", but are assured that no formal publiclly announced official treaty exists or ever existed that obliges them to...

...Finally the conference shall hear an attempt by the alliance to counter these by claiming that Bulgaria was not obliged to enter the war and did so out of pure Belligerence, but the conference is assured that unlike Greece, Bulgaria has signed a formal publiclly announced official treaty with both Blessed Germany and the Blessed Dual Monarchy, which was celebrated with full pomp and ceremony as gratitude for driving out forigen invaders in the Balkan War who threatened the newly independant state of Bulgaria which was instigated by the Russians...

...and by this treaty Bulgaria was honour-bound to aid Germany and the Dual Monarchy.

Finally the Conference is asked that they acknowledge Bulgaria's wish for the terms of Norweigan-Sponsered treaty of Oslo be re-enforced on Greece and Rumania.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Bulgaria-SanStefano_-%281878%29-byTodorBozhinov.png

OOC: This is what Bulgaria wants, which as you notice doesn't exactly engulf all of the Province of Salonika.

SIC: also mentioned -albeit quietly- to the Dual Monarchy rep. of the Possiblity of acquiring Vranje and Piroy.

3. The Far East
a) China
i. Sinkiang will be returned to Imperial China by Russia. Southern Mongolia, plus everything currently occupied by Imperial Chinese forces, will be returned to Imperial China by Japan.
b) Northeast Asia
i. All Russian territory occupied by Japan is to be returned to Russia. Russia may purchase the southern half of Sakhalin Island. Port Arthur is to be returned to Russia as well.
c) Japan shall pay reparations to France for breaking the Franco-Japanese non-aggression pact (ooc: here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11756452&postcount=23)), with a minimum payment of enough to cover the replacement of French shipping lost to Japanese warships (ooc: 2 shipping units, 6 points)

Japan refuses to pay reparations, as the United States specified was not necessary.

Japan also refuses the demands for Southern Sakhalin, however, Japan will aree to the united States' earlier terms, specifically Japan would pay Russia for Northern Sakhalin.

Prime Minister Gonnohyoe asks why the situation in Indochina should be held off, when it is a prt of the war.

Foreign Minister Delcassé notes that Japan is hardly in a position to be so obstinate, having recently lost much of its army to the Russians. In addition, the Japanese refusal to be punished for breaking an internationally-recognized non-aggression pact is child-like arrogance at best, and dishonorable and cowardly at worst.

Indochina, as per the original American request, is being handled by France and Siam through other diplomatic channels.

Delcassé also asks that the delegates, rather than picking out the various bits of the agenda that immediately concern them and discussing numerous points at once, please consider the points of the agenda in order. If the current topic of discussion does not concern one's nation, then one should be polite enough to wait until the topic changes.

To that end, Delcassé yields the floor to the Polish and Baltic delegates, asking them to outline exactly where they feel the western and southern borders of their respective states should fall.

Count von Tattenbach stood up in disgst upon hearing France's demands, asking out if the French realize that they did not WIN this war, and then asking if the French understand the notion of compromise, and a compromise peace? It is clearly stated that Germany will not accept a treaty that punishes the Coalition when the Coalition has not been defeated. It is also pointed out that it was Germany, NOT France or the allies, that made the FIRST moves towards peace, it was Germany who called for a ceasefire, Germany who presented terms and Germany who suggested this very conference take place. Not only that, but Germany has beent eh first nation to start demobilizing, and at this present time the only other nations that have since begun demobilizing have been Coalition nations, not one single Allied nation has made a single move towards standing down for a warlevel.

It makes Germany and the Coalition wonder if the Allies truely want peace, or if they want to force us back to war with ridiculous demands and propositions.

Presented was again were the original proposals set out by Germany two months ago.

Proposals:
1. Poland (as in the Russian part), Baltic States, W Ukraine independent( It is pointed out that over a million Balts, Poles and Ukrainians are fighting in their own armies and that it would be extremely hard to ever try to reincorporate them into the Russian empire again, not after they've already tasted this much freedom.)
2. Belorussia is highly negotiable
3. Already got a free Finland
4. Trade French Guinea, Dakar, French Equatorial Africa and the Canary islands in return for 1939 German/French border on the WIF Europe Map and return to pre war status quo in Morocco
OR
Turn AL into Burgundy(reduces prospect of future war)
5. Japanese get to keep Sakkalin Island, and all French, Italian forces out of East Asia
5b. All other occupied Russian territory conquered in this war is to be returned
6. Siam gets French Indochina (they won’t be able to keep Vietnam, due to Vietnamese nationalists anyway)
7. French get their colonies and India and Madagascar back in return for this
8. Allied withdrawal from Syria, Transjordan, Arabia and Iraq which are to become independent (none are there, but to make sure) and 1939 Turkey while Ottomans get to keep Turkish Thrace, 1939 WIF border in Europe and Kurdistan up to Mosul(Either way in about 3-4 years Arab nationalism will reach a point that holding the Arab parts will be a bitch anyway)
8b. Lebanon is to become a French protectorate(It is Catholic anyway)
9. Bulgaria gets Salonika, otherwise 1939 Rumanian border for Rumania except for Transylvania, which remains AHE
10. AHE keeps Serbia as a province
11. Rumania regains independence, but must allow 1 German garrison unit on Oil resource, and can only sell oil to other nations besides AHE or Germany or Bulgaria with permission. Sharp limits on Rumanian Army (5 light divisions and no reserve units, plus 1 police division) and no Rumanian Navy and only 1 air unit
12. Peace treaty between Japan and Imperial China, IC is to keep what land it has retaken
13. Japanese Mongolian client state gets to remain independent


It is pointed out that in the spirit of compromise, something Germany understands and hopes to use during this conference, these terms are far from final, and far from being the only ones possible.

President Clemenceau asks if Germany is suggesting that nations which violate treaties for no legitimate reason should go unpunished? Perhaps the case may be different, had Germany and its allies won the war. Indeed, France and the other Allied powers have not won the war, but neither have the Germans. After all, every time the French and German armies have met in battle, the French have proved victorious.

It is not the intention of France to be unfair toward the Coalition, but certain things must remain at the forefront of the discussion because they are facts which must be remembered if a just peace is to be reached:

1) It was Germany, not the Allies, who had the Romanov family assassinated by terrorists.
2) It was Germany, not the Allies, who provoked rebellion in a foreign power with the ultimate goal of destablizing said power.
3) It was Germany, not the Allies, who initiated a war of aggression in Eastern Europe with no just cause, and indeed no cause at all aside from the desire to utterly dominate the European continent and all those who would stand in the way of Prussian Militarism.
4) It was the Ottoman Empire, Japan, and Siam which broke internationally-recognized treaties with France and Russia. In order for the Allied Powers to justly and honorably support punishment for Rumania and Greece for breaking their own treaties, the Coalition must show its support for measures punishing the Ottomans, the Japanese, and the Siamese.

Otherwise, the Coalition proves that it considers this attempt at justice and true peace nothing more than a farce, and will disregard any accord reached at the first chance to increase their own station in the future.

The Coalition powers have, over the course of the past two years, proven themselves deceitful and untrustworthy. When the Coalition shows that they are willing to make true sacrifices in the name of peace, then the Allied powers will begin demobilizing.

President Clemenceau also points out that the original German terms were grossly in favor of the Coalition, an attempt to take at the peace table what they could not take or hold on the battlefield.

President Clemenceau also points out that the original German terms were grossly in favor of the Coalition, an attempt to take at the peace table what they could not take or hold on the battlefield.

Prime Minister Gonnohyoe points out that these lands are all currently held by Germany, not an attempt to take something they don't have

Prime Minister Gonnohyoe points out that these lands are all currently held by Germany, not an attempt to take something they don't have

President Clemenceau clarifies that the proposed German terms were in favor of the Coalition as a whole (especially in regards to East Asia, Rumania and the Middle East), rather than Germany in particular.

President Clemenceau clarifies that the proposed German terms were in favor of the Coalition as a whole (especially in regards to East Asia, Rumania and the Middle East), rather than Germany in particular.

Prime Minister Gonnohyoe responds that these lands are held by Coalitian troops of one nation or another

Tattenbach angrily points out that there isn't a shred of evidence linking Germany to the murder of the Romanov family, but does remind the entire conference that it was Russian backed Serbs who massarcred dozens in a terrorist bombing in Austria-Hungary just last year.

As far as fighting a war for no just cause, we fought this war to save our fellow Germanic peoples originally in the Baltic states and in Finland, a cause which since then has expanded to include the free peoples of Poland and the Ukraine. Tattenbach points out that not one square mile of land has been annexed in this war by Germany, and points out that Germany has not made one single demand for a shred of territory. Instead, since the wars beggining, Germany has GIVEN territory to the Free Polish state and asked for nothing in return. We have OFFERED the French the provinces of Alscace and Lorraine back. This war was not one made for personal profit, Germany has not profitted from this war at all, we are fighting so the peoples who have spent their entire lives under foriegn occupation may be freed, much like the French supported George Washington all those years ago.

Germany has yet to break a single protocal or international law during the course of this war, something the Allies, and Russia specifically have not shied away from at all. Massacring Finns because they dared strive for independence, unlawfully sinking mercheant shipping without warning.

We are asking for peace, a peace that is as fair as possible for both sides, and in order for that to happen than France is going to have to learn how to negotiate and compomise, because whetehr France likes it or not, they have not won this war. If France is truely sincere in its wish for peace than Germany challenges it to follow our lead and begin demobilizing its reserves.

Crwn Prince Ferdinand points out that there is no proof that the Russians were involved in any way, shape, or form in the unfortunate and disgusting terrorrist attacks in the Austro-Hugarian Empire, while there is, on the other hand, proof that German agents and money were invovled in the destabilization of the Russian Empire, if not directly involved in the assassination of Tasr Nicholas and his family (God rest their souls.)

He also asks a ponted question: "Germany would not profit? Germany would profit immensly were they to have German controlled and backed Polish, Baltic and Ukrainian governments." Further more, Russia has already shown a willingness to allow the Baltic, Finnish, and Polish nations become independent, and that this peace deal was offered to the Germans at the beginning of the war. Why did the German government reject this generosity and instead perpetuate a long and bloody war?

Furthermore, if Rumania is to be punished for breaking a treaty, then why should not the Japanese, Siamese and Ottomans be punished for breaking more solemn treaties such as a Non-Aggresson Pact, especially considering that Rumania was brutally attacked when the government merely wished to insure their nation's continued neutrality. He notes that the Rumanian expanded army had been mainly reserve troops, and that the new units would have all been disbanded once hostilities ceased.

Crwn Prince Ferdinand points out that there is no proof that the Russians were involved in any way, shape, or form in the unfortunate and disgusting terrorrist attacks in the Austro-Hugarian Empire, while there is, on the other hand, proof that German agents and money were invovled in the destabilization of the Russian Empire, if not directly involved in the assassination of Tasr Nicholas and his family (God rest their souls.)

He also asks a ponted question: "Germany would not profit? Germany would profit immensly were they to have German controlled and backed Polish, Baltic and Ukrainian governments." Further more, Russia has already shown a willingness to allow the Baltic, Finnish, and Polish nations become independent, and that this peace deal was offered to the Germans at the beginning of the war. Why did the German government reject this generosity and instead perpetuate a long and bloody war?

Furthermore, if Rumania is to be punished for breaking a treaty, then why should not the Japanese, Siamese and Ottomans be punished for breaking more solemn treaties such as a Non-Aggresson Pact, especially considering that Rumania was brutally attacked when the government merely wished to insure their nation's continued neutrality. He notes that the Rumanian expanded army had been mainly reserve troops, and that the new units would have all been disbanded once hostilities ceased.

"The Serbs were implicated in the assasination of Archduke Ferdinand, the Serbs joining the Allies not long after.

If Rumania really wanted neutrality, why did it antagonize Germany by breaking the peace treaty by building new units, and instead of defending its country as a true neutral would, invaded Bulgaria?

Russia is fine with independance for Poland and the Balts, but what about the Ukraines? Why should they be denied freedom?", responds Prime Minister Gonnohyoe

"Enough," cried Beveridge as he stood to speak. The other delegates turned to look at him.

"As admirable as the behavior of all nations involved in this war has been up to this point, to pretend that either side has been pure to this point is idiocy, and will only raise the ire of all involved.

"The United States has been in contact with the government of both Allied and Coalition governments, and would point out that its proposed terms in many cases lie in between the proposals of both sides. Perhaps instead of free-ranging bickering, we should begin with some good-will exercises.

"The Germans have begun demobilizing their reserves. Perhaps some of the Allied powers could begin doing so as well to ease tensions? Washington, if nothing else, will appreciate the effort. There need be no fear of one side or the other breaking this cease fire without provocation, as the United States will put its full power into protecting the victim of such a move.

"Now then, there is universal agreement that the Baltic States will be independent? And Poland as well?"

There were nods in return. (ooc: I assume?)

"Excellent. Perhaps the Coalition and Alliance would put some ideas for the borders of Poland on the table and this could be ironed out?"

France has ordered the demobilization of some troops on the Western Front, in order to show the Third Republic's absolute commitment to a just peace.

A French aide enters the conference room, quietly so as not to disturb the proceedings. Handing a note to Foreign Minister Delcassé, the aide steps to the side, allowing him to read it. Passing the note to Clemenceau, Delcassé removes his spectacles and rubs his eyes. Clemenceau frowns slightly, and then speaks.

"Gentlemen, if I may interrupt. Despite the accusations of my German colleagues, it seems that France has indeed been one of the first nations to move towards a lasting peace. Working through private diplomatic channels, the Third Republic has reached a peace accord with the Dual Empire of Siam in regards to the issue of Indochina. Late last night, local time, the French Ambassador in Bangkok signed a treaty of peace with Siam.

1. The Double Empire of Siam will retain claim on the states of Cochin-China, Annam, Tonkin, Cambodia, and Laos.
2. The Republics of South Madagascar and East India will decide internally whether to become independent, rejoin the French Empire, or become colonies of the Double Empire of Siam.
3. The Double Empire of Siam will pay reparations to France, in the amount of 90 points by January 1929.
4. All ethnic French in Indochina will gain joint French-Siamese citizenship, or retain French citizenship as they choose.
5. France will refrain from interfering with internal Siamese matters for a period of 10 years.
6. Siam shall recognize the independence of the Republic of Hainan (ooc: if they haven't already done so), and shall not interefere in the affairs of that nation.

"I cannot say that I am happy that France has lost Indochina, but pride must be abandoned if we are to achieve true peace, and I urge the other delegates here to remember that."

American newspapers begin reporting the proceedings and quickly the indications are that the Press is highly in favor of the German terms, especially in cities like New York, Chicago and elsewhere in the Midwest, parts of the US that have large German-American and Polish-American communities.

The French do get some credit for the Siamese/French discussions, but overall, the majority of American Newspapers, and with their influence and influence of voters in the Midwest and Northeast, is leaning toward the German position.

Only on the West Coast, with its extensive anti Japanese bias, does the Allied position have a lot of support.

However, increasingly, vocal support exists for France keeping Palestine among American Christians. The Jewish community remains divided, as anti Semitism has a long history in France and a far worse one in Russia, while the Turks were relatively tolerant of Jews.

Meanwhile, in the British Empire, opinion is decidely mixed. Many strongly support the Germans for fighting the traditional foe of France, and it is remarked on how France and Italy and Spain declared war on Germany without being attacked or seriously threatened. Many Britons, as well as the Canadians and South Africans don't see why the Allies and Germans don't simply trade territories as was traditional during the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. After all, most of the colonies aren't worth much except for prestige, and the German proposals seem more then fair.

Russian history of oppression, the long British rivalry with the Russians in Central and South Asia, and the fact that the Germans did declare war to protect Finns and Balts who were revolting from oppressive Russian rule is also remarked on favorably.

Add to that the the French and Russians both essentially annexed most of the Ottoman Empire by force (something the British spent decades trying to prevent) is a major force placing Britons and Canadians on the pro German side.

Except

Australians and Britons living in India are appalled by the success Siam and Japan had against the French, Italians and for that matter, the success the Imperial Chinese had against the Germans. The war has shattered any notions of white supremacy as Asians have defeated Europeans armed with modern weapons on numerous occasions.

Anything that gets Siam and Japan out of the Indian Ocean is therefore ok with the Australians.

Indians note all of this, and pro independence leaders make careful note.

Rosen points out that, as per the treaty ending the Balkan Wars, Russia cut all economic ties with Serbia and has not been backing them. The Russian government issued a condemnation of the brutal assasination of the Arch-Duke, which is more then the Germans did when the Tsar, along with almost his entire family, were killed.

Russia is willing to drop its claims to Port Arthur, if the coalition will cease its support for the rebels in the Ukraine. He puts forth new terms that he thinks will be more then agreeable to both the Allies and the Coalition in the Far East:

-Japan withdraws from all Russian territory.
-Imperial China keeps all territory it currently has under occupation.
-Japan may purchase the Northern Half of Sakhalin Island for 15 points and if the Russians agree to it.
-Alternatively, the borders on Sakhalin Island may return to the pre war state.
-Japan pays reperations to France for breaking it's NAT.

In addition, Russia is more then willing to compromise on many issues and has already allowed the Balts, the Poles and the Finns independence. The Germans would benefit immensely from depriving the Russians of even more territory.


Rosen also points out that, although the Germans make much of the realtively unprovoked entry into the war of Italy and France, that the Japanese and Ottomans did the exact same thing with even less provocation and both breaking non-aggression pacts. And yet, Germany stays silent on this. They ahve refused to condemn their allies on breaking their treaties. Russia is willing to punish the Balkan states for breaking their treaties (as evidenced by the fact that they have not called for the liberation of Serbia). However, is Germany willing to punish it's own allies or does it merely wish to wring every last bit of blood and sweat it can from Russia?

Rosen is also willing to acede to Bulgaria's claims as per the treaty of San Stefano, provided Bulgaria recognize the legitimacy of French and Russian greviences against the Ottoman Empire and the Empire of Japan for breaking internationally recognized treaties and support punishment

In reference to the Balkans again, he brings up something he is sure which all can agree upon:

All Balkan states (including the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires) must sign a treaty protecting the rights of minorities within their borders. This treaty will include the promise not to commit acts of state terror, deprive people unlawfully of their land, conduct persecution on religious or ethnic grounds, conduct forced deportations, etc.

Russia will be willing to sign on to a similar treaty to protect the rights of the minorities still within its borders. Rosen goes on to ask, "Who could possibly be opposed to this?"


As to point 8 of the German's proposed treaty: This would allow the Ottomans to again expand their influence into these nations. In addition, Russia will be liberating the Armenians and Kurds, in addtion to Mesopatamia. The French and Italians will help Syria and Trans-Jordan work towrads independence by industrializing and building their infrastructure.

Point 13 is also unacceptable, as it would take more territory from Russia.


"But I believe the point in question was the Poish and Baltic borders..." Rosen nods at the Baltic and Polish delegates. "Gentlemen?"

The British Delegation watches quietly as the two sides derail each other, while occasionally giving vile glances at the Japanese side.

"Britain supports the honorable proposal of the German delegation regarding the West, at least, and is glad to see that Siam and France have come to an agreement, something which we can all look upon with favor.

"However, what of the Issue of Madagascar and what was once French India?"

Parthini;11971238']The British Delegation watches quietly as the two sides derail each other, while occasionally giving vile glances at the Japanese side.

"Britain supports the honorable proposal of the German delegation regarding the West, at least, and is glad to see that Siam and France have come to an agreement, something which we can all look upon with favor.

"However, what of the Issue of Madagascar and what was once French India?"

Rosen points out that they would vote to either remain independent, join with Siam or rejoin France.

"Britain also states that it supports the return of the Canary Islands, which have been Spanish for a good deal of time, to Spain. They have already suffered enough.

"As have all nations here.

Sir Grey clears his throat.

"We are here at a peace treaty by equal parties who are tired of war. There has obviously been no victor, and should these talks fail, it is likely that this war will continue on through until the end of the decade and through the lives of millions of men. Now, we could bicker at each other, or we could strive for a lasting peace. This, many have said, was the War to End all Wars. Now, in order for bloodshed on this level to never happen again, we do not need a Peace to End all Peace."

OOC: in response to Kilani about Japanese Mongolia.

US proposed that if Japan wanted to set its own Mongolian province free, that it could do so and that no Russian territory would be attached to that. If this is what the Germans implied when they said a Mongolian state would be independent, the US would back it.

IC: Beveridge nods in approval at Grey's remarks but waits for talks to begin on Poland.

Delcassé glances absentmindedly at his pocket watch while waiting for the Polish and Baltic representatives to speak. The Foreign Minister began to make a mental list of the items on the agenda that had already been agreed upon, though at the moment it was a short one, consisting primarily of peace between France and Siam.

Delcassé glances absentmindedly at his pocket watch while waiting for the Polish and Baltic representatives to speak. The Foreign Minister began to make a mental list of the items on the agenda that had already been agreed upon, though at the moment it was a short one, consisting primarily of peace between France and Siam.

OOC: is GB doing Poland and balts? Poland's already here by the way

and it is remarked on how France and Italy and Spain declared war on Germany without being attacked or seriously threatened.


*sighs* I know no OOC comments but damnit I have to. Next time please take note that Italy never really gave a declaration of war as Japan did so first with no aggression on Italy's part.

ooc
all three Baltic nations are indeed present, as are Ukrainians

IC
Crown Prince Duan Qirui reminds all that Mongolia is actually Chinese territory, and that if any nation should have control over it, then it should be the Chinese Empire.

That said, the Imperial government is willing to settle for it controlling Outer Mongolia (RL nation of Mongolia) and western Inner Mongolia, and Manchuria controlling eastern Inner Mongolia

The Balts (ooc all three delegations) let Pilduski negotiate for them. The Poles and Balts want the borders indicated (providing a map showing 1939 WIF Polish borders but no Polish corridor, so the coastal hexes of Poland remain German). Poland and the Balts feel that gratitude to the Germans and Austrians, but also feel that they earned their right to independence.

*sighs* I know no OOC comments but damnit I have to. Next time please take note that Italy never really gave a declaration of war as Japan did so first with no aggression on Italy's part.

ooc
the Italian Japanese conflict never really made the news much in the US, as it principally just involved warships, and in the one big battle, was mainly a French fleet that was destroyed that happened to have a few Italian warships in it.

So basically Americans, for that matter, English speakers, didn't really notice.

ooc
all three Baltic nations are indeed present, as are Ukrainians

IC
Crown Prince Duan Qirui reminds all that Mongolia is actually Chinese territory, and that if any nation should have control over it, then it should be the Chinese Empire.

That said, the Imperial government is willing to settle for it controlling Outer Mongolia (RL nation of Mongolia) and western Inner Mongolia, and Manchuria controlling eastern Inner Mongolia

The Balts (ooc all three delegations) let Pilduski negotiate for them. The Poles and Balts want the borders indicated (providing a map showing 1939 WIF Polish borders but no Polish corridor, so the coastal hexes of Poland remain German). Poland and the Balts feel that gratitude to the Germans and Austrians, but also feel that they earned their right to independence.


Prime Minister Gonnohyoe agrees with the Chinese, and is prepared to leave Outer Mongolia to them

ooc: Oh, how convenient.
ic:

Italy will not give up ownership to Quemoy or Northern Madagascar. This has been an unfair war of aggression against Italy by Japan and its Allies. The blockade of Quemoy and siezure of Madagascar serves as proof.

ooc: Oh, how convenient.
ic:

Italy will not give up ownership to Quemoy or Northern Madagascar. This has been an unfair war of aggression against Italy by Japan and its Allies. The blockade of Quemoy and siezure of Madagascar serves as proof.

Gonnohyoe responds smoothly, "You will notice we have not mentioned either areas, they are open to neogitation, however, you do not control Northern madagascar, the French do.
Also, if a blockade serves as proof of agression, what of the attempted blockade of germany? What of the seizure of the Rhineland and Saarland?"

Gonnohyoe responds smoothly, "You will notice we have not mentioned either areas, they are open to neogitation, however, you do not control Northern madagascar, the French do.
Also, if a blockade serves as proof of agression, what of the attempted blockade of germany? What of the seizure of the Rhineland and Saarland?"

President Clemenceau points out that Madagascar is a Franco-Italian codominium, and that both nations have equal claim to the island.

The blockade and invasion of Germany did not, unlike Japanese actions, break treaties of non-aggression, or begin wars of aggression with states that France and Italy had no previous quarrel with.

Japan, however, cannot say the same.

President Clemenceau points out that Madagascar is a Franco-Italian codominium, and that both nations have equal claim to the island.

The blockade and invasion of Germany did not, unlike Japanese actions, break treaties of non-aggression, or begin wars of aggression with states that France and Italy had no previous quarrel with.

Japan, however, cannot say the same.

"And when did Italy have a quarrel with the Ottoman Empire? Or Germany? When has France quarelled with the Ottomans or Bulgarians?"

Beveridge clears his throat loudly, his face a mix of bemusement and consternation.

"Perhaps less of the blame game and more of the business at hand?" he asks...

Gonnohyoe responds smoothly, "You will notice we have not mentioned either areas, they are open to neogitation, however, you do not control Northern madagascar, the French do.
Also, if a blockade serves as proof of agression, what of the attempted blockade of germany? What of the seizure of the Rhineland and Saarland?"

And whom we ask decided to begin these hostilities? It was the Japanese who gave the declaration of war on behalf of the Coalition. It was the Japanese who first gave the blockade of Quemoy. Had Japan not been on a hunt for land then the sons of Italy could be at home with families rather than buried in the cold earth. The blood of innocents rests in your hands and you refuse to accept it. Famous words best describe Japan "Out, damned spot! out, I say!"

Beveridge clears his throat loudly, his face a mix of bemusement and consternation.

"Perhaps less of the blame game and more of the business at hand?" he asks...

Gonnohoye sits back down, "that could waste less time"

Gonnohoye does note, however that japan declared war on the Allies a day after they declared war on Germany

President Clemenceau nods to Breveridge, and instead of pointing out to the incredibly dense Japanese Prime Minister that France did indeed have no quarrel with with the Ottomans until they broke their non-aggression pact with Russia, voices his support for the proposed Baltic and Polish borders.

ooc
all three Baltic nations are indeed present, as are Ukrainians

IC
The Balts (ooc all three delegations) let Pilduski negotiate for them. The Poles and Balts want the borders indicated (providing a map showing 1939 WIF Polish borders but no Polish corridor, so the coastal hexes of Poland remain German). Poland and the Balts feel that gratitude to the Germans and Austrians, but also feel that they earned their right to independence.

http://files.photojerk.com/dumelow/europe.PNG

OOC: In the West the Poles pretty much want Polish Germany up to Posen and in the South all of Austrian Galicia (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3a/Galicia_1897.jpg). In the East they want all of Russian Poland (or what they believe constitutes such). Both Austro-Hungry and Germany lose a production center to Poland under this proposal (Krakow and Poznan).

http://files.photojerk.com/dumelow/europe.PNG

OOC: In the West the Poles pretty much want Polish Germany up to Posen and in the South all of Austrian Galicia (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3a/Galicia_1897.jpg). In the East they want all of Russian Poland (or what they believe constitutes such).

Isn't part of Galicia Ukrainian ethnically?

Isn't part of Galicia Ukrainian ethnically?

OOC: Yes, but the greedy Poles do not care.

OOC:

Europe in 1911 out the outbreak of war:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d3/cylea/E20Europe1911.jpg?t=1163990589

A proposed Europe in 1913. I know Ukraine is not on the map yet since that is such a touchy issue but the rest of the borders are the revised US proposal (unless a horrendous mistake has been made of course) :

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d3/cylea/E20Europe1913.jpg?t=1163990751

OOC: I don't think Memel was supposed to go to the Balts, and I think Montenegro is part of Austria-Hungary.

Other than that it looks good.

Parthini;11972397']OOC: I don't think Memel was supposed to go to the Balts

OOC: I think they might be asking for it... Where is Memel on the World in Flames map?

Parthini;11972397']and I think Montenegro is part of Austria-Hungary.

Montenegro is (still) independent.

Rosen agrees with the Poles proposed borders, as well as the Balts. He also agrees to turn over Outer Mongolia to the Imperial Chinese.

OOC: I think they might be asking for it... Where is Memel on the World in Flames map?



Montenegro is (still) independent.

ooc
Memel is still in East Prussia on the WIF map

and yes, Montenegro is independent still and sided with the Austrians (although no one really noticed) because it really didn't see a choice.

Poles will argue that Eastern Galicia is predominantly Polish and historically such as well. Thats not entirely true, but then facing the possibility of the Russians crushing them, the locals probably won't mind much.

The Ukranian delegation, seeing that independence is hopeless, leaves the US for home.

To organize resistance and if need be, flight

Rosen is also willing to acede to Bulgaria's claims as per the treaty of San Stefano, provided Bulgaria recognize the legitimacy of French and Russian greviences against the Ottoman Empire and the Empire of Japan for breaking internationally recognized treaties and support punishment.

The Prince raises an Eyebrow to this, "We seem to think that Russia has already acceded (aswell as Rumania, The Sublime Porte, the ex-state of Serbia and Montenegro) to the claims by signing the Treaty of San Stefano in the first place.

fait accompli , Mr. Rosen, fait accompli. You have already signed the treaty and you cannot reverse it".

In reference to the Balkans again, he brings up something he is sure which all can agree upon:

All Balkan states (including the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires) must sign a treaty protecting the rights of minorities within their borders. This treaty will include the promise not to commit acts of state terror, deprive people unlawfully of their land, conduct persecution on religious or ethnic grounds, conduct forced deportations, etc.

"Ah, this goes without saying. Lest we meet the same fate of a certain Imperialist state which lost much of its territory due to such actions against their subject, we believe you have made that extremely clear." comments the Prince with a faint quiet smile, "and with the departure of the respected Ukrainian Representatives, we suspect that you will continue to do so".

"And while we are at the subject, we remind the conference that evidence has been found linking to a pre-war allocation of the Greek budget to several ministries for what is seemed to be termed a "Hellenisation" project, we suspect this to be a project to undermine the minorities in Bulgarian Macedonia and establish the Greek ethnic group as the superior."
_____________________________________________________
OOC:

Europe in 1911 out the outbreak of war:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d3...g?t=1163990589

A proposed Europe in 1913. I know Ukraine is not on the map yet since that is such a touchy issue but the rest of the borders are the revised US proposal (unless a horrendous mistake has been made of course) :

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d3...g?t=1163990751

Neither Salonika nor Greek Macedonia is included on your map for Bulgaria. Bulgaria will settle for either.

The Prince raises an Eyebrow to this, "We seem to think that Russia has already acceded (aswell as Rumania, The Sublime Porte, the ex-state of Serbia and Montenegro) to the claims by signing the Treaty of San Stefano in the first place.

fait accompli , Mr. Rosen, fait accompli. You have already signed the treaty and you cannot reverse it".

A trio of lawyers and experts step forward and point out to all concerned that the Treaty of San Stefano was revised on July 13, 1878, by the Treaty of Berlin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Berlin%2C_1878), and thus was indeed “reversed,” and thus no one is bound by it in the manner the Bulgarians claim (although everyone but the Bulgarians seem to have recognized that fact). It is also pointed out that some of the Greek territory now claimed by Bulgaria was ceded to Greece by the Ottoman Empire in a separate treaty in 1906.

OOC: In other words, the 35 year old Treaty of San Stefano is no longer in force, as it was revised in the very same year it was written, and there have since been countless other treaties concerning both the territory Bulgaria now claims and the Balkans in general.

The Prince raises an Eyebrow to this, "We seem to think that Russia has already acceded (aswell as Rumania, The Sublime Porte, the ex-state of Serbia and Montenegro) to the claims by signing the Treaty of San Stefano in the first place.

fait accompli , Mr. Rosen, fait accompli. You have already signed the treaty and you cannot reverse it".

"May I remind his Highness that the Treaty of Berlin revises the Treaty of San Stefano of which he is so fond of bringing up? It reverses your claim to Salonika and Greek Macedonia, both of which were in fact ceded to Greece in 1906 by the Ottoman Empire.

"However, seeing as you claim blatant Greek aggression (which the Russian government sees as false as it was merely coming to the defense of Russia and the aid of its ally, France) we will support some form of reperation or restitution to the state of Bulgaria."



"Ah, this goes without saying. Lest we meet the same fate of a certain Imperialist state which lost much of its territory due to such actions against their subject, we believe you have made that extremely clear." comments the Prince with a faint quiet smile, "and with the departure of the respected Ukrainian Representatives, we suspect that you will continue to do so".

"If his Highness is done with veiled insults, perhaps we can get back to the matter at hand. The Ukraine is a state in rebellion. It is not an independent nation and nor are they considered a minority. They are Russians. May I also point out that all minorities in the Empire were granted the same protections under the law as Russians (ooc: I passed this at some point early on in the game. I have to go dig it up off my thread) and that the only reason any of these minorities were in a state of revolt was because German intelligence operatives were inciting them and providing them with funding, which led directly to the assassination of the Tsar and his family.

"I cannot see how his Highness can possibly claim that Bulgaria would respond any differently were, hypothetically, a Rumanian funded rebellion were to spring up in Dobruja."


"And while we are at the subject, we remind the conference that evidence has been found linking to a pre-war allocation of the Greek budget to several ministries for what is seemed to be termed a "Hellenisation" project, we suspect this to be a project to undermine the minorities in Bulgarian Macedonia and establish the Greek ethnic group as the superior."

"This is, of course, something not supported by the Regent and I believe that the position of my government is that an investigation be launched into these allegations."

Several British Delegates point out that as of this moment, the Coalition is very much the victor in the Balkans, and as such, should probably gain the most there. Salonika is not too much to ask for compensation for a nation which has engaged in aggressive warfare against Bulgaria twice in a decade.

Unless, of course, they feel that Japan should not be punished as harshly for acting in a similar manner.

Parthini;11974076']Several British Delegates point out that as of this moment, the Coalition is very much the victor in the Balkans, and as such, should probably gain the most there. Salonika is not too much to ask for compensation for a nation which has engaged in aggressive warfare against Bulgaria twice in a decade.

Unless, of course, they feel that Japan should not be punished as harshly for acting in a similar manner.

Rosen agrees with the British delegation.

Minister of Foreign Affairs Irgens suggests that, due to Ukraine being such a point of contention for both the Coalition and Allied forces, a compromise needs to be arrived for it or the peace talks may be derailed entirely.

"Delegates, you will see before you now points of the Norwegian proposal for Ukraine, the thorn in the side of this attempt at peace. It seems completely unfair to simply ignore the position of the Ukrainians, while at the same time gross misjudgement to discount Russian feelings over hte territory. I think that both sides can agree that the possibility of some greater measure of autonomy can at least be considered, while not allowing the sundering of the Russian Empire outright.

"The people of Ukraine seem prepared to fight for freedom and that seems like a fight that can be forestalled and prevented, if we can come to something approaching an agreement. I agree with the Russian points- Ukraine should not be wrested from them. Yet I also agree with the German points, that Ukranians have taken up arms to fight for their freedom. This proposal hopes to strike a bit of a balance between the two.

"I turn to Great Britain's example of areas under its control, but with some control over their own destiny. The idea of foreign dominions, colonies that have some freedoms of their own but remain essentially that- colonies. The Norwegian proposal bears that in mind. Ukraine will be granted what amounts to dominion status- it can conduct some internal affairs, but external affairs are dictated by Russia. Its production would continue to go to Russia, after it pays for social services and police and military units. Russia would keep Ukraine as part of it, but the Ukranians would gain some self-control.

"No foreign government would be interfering with Ukraine, as it would remain part of Russia. No funds from Ukraine would go to anything but its own internal affairs- health, education, and the like- and Russia, much as is done with Great Britain and her colonies. Neither side would get exactly what they want, but both would gain on this proposal. Ukraine would get some of the things demanded by her people, people who will fight to secure some semblance of rights (even against the overwhelming odds Russia can levy against them), while Russia would continue to receive the resources and men needed from Ukraine- thoug not in perhaps the same manner as before. Nonetheless, both sides would get what they want- Ukraine and Russia. Further bloodshed would not be necessary. Further wrangling would not be necessary. Britain has sohwn its Dominions can and do exist wholly peacefully within itself as an Empire- so too can Ukraine."

[OOC- Basically, Ukraine would be able to elect some of its own officials, pay for its social services and the military Russia decides it needs to protect itself/that part of Russia (it is still a colony, after all, and thus part of Russia), and then sends it remaining points, excress food and resources to Russia. That's what the proposal amounts to- it becomes a bit more free, but Russia hangs on to it. An attempt to strike a middle ground.]

*snip*

[OOC- Basically, Ukraine would be able to elect some of its own officials, pay for its social services and the military Russia decides it needs to protect itself/that part of Russia (it is still a colony, after all, and thus part of Russia), and then sends it remaining points, excress food and resources to Russia. That's what the proposal amounts to- it becomes a bit more free, but Russia hangs on to it. An attempt to strike a middle ground.]

Rosen smiles and nods at the Norwegian delegate, "Sir, you and I are of the same mind on this issue. Your proposal is wholly acceptable to the Russian government and to the Russian people. We can only hope the Ukranians and the Germans accept it. I shall attempt to have the Ukrainian delegates recalled to the conference so that they may enter their own opnion on this issue."

He scribbles a note down on a piece of a paper and hands it to an aide, who rushes off with it, hoping to catch the Ukranian delegates before they leave Arlington.

"So, in my understanding, Ukraine would be allowed to run it's own internal affairs and run it's own military and police. However, their military and foriegn policy ultimately falls under the command of Stavka and of Russia? And the resources and excess goods not needed for their own uses would be sent to Russia which would, of course, send some of them back into Ukraine in order to help industrialize, repair war damages and maintain nation wide infrastructure, such as the railways? "

"Assuming all of that is true, Russia would find this deal wholly acceptable and would agree to it wholeheartedly."

A Polish official manages to contact the Ukranians before they leave Washington and gets them to return.

Dmytro Dontsov, the interim President of the Republic of the Ukraine, looks over the proposal and nods his acceptance.

Its not all he wants, but its a start.

"The Ukranian people can live with this document."

OOC information
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmytro_Dontsov

this would be known to some extent by the Russian police

The Greek delegation immediatly rejects any proposals regarding Greece losing territory to Bulgaria. The Greek entry into the war was prompted by belligerent actions by Coalition nations, including Bulgaria, towards Serbia and Rumania. Furthermore, it is stated that it was the Greeks infact, that first suggested peace in the Balkans, a claim that can be verified by Sir Edward Grey, the British Foreign Secretary.
It is noted that any attempt by Bulgaria to seize control of Salonika will be met by total resistance by the local population.

A Polish official manages to contact the Ukranians before they leave Washington and gets them to return.

Dmytro Dontsov, the interim President of the Republic of the Ukraine, looks over the proposal and nods his acceptance.

Its not all he wants, but its a start.

"The Ukranian people can live with this document."

OOC information
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmytro_Dontsov

this would be known to some extent by the Russian police

Rosen nods, "Very well. I hope that the German delegation finds this agreeable. Mr. Dontsov, I hope that we can work together to solidify the relationships between Russia and the Ukraine."

Parthini;11974076']Several British Delegates point out that as of this moment, the Coalition is very much the victor in the Balkans, and as such, should probably gain the most there. Salonika is not too much to ask for compensation for a nation which has engaged in aggressive warfare against Bulgaria twice in a decade.

Unless, of course, they feel that Japan should not be punished as harshly for acting in a similar manner.

The Greek delegation is swift to point out that it was Bulgaria that first entered this war, and the so called aggressive warfare performed by Greece was in an effort to neutralise the troops fighting against Serbia and Rumania, not to systematically destroy Bulgaria, and Greece held, and holds, no territorial claims on Bulgaria where ethnic Greeks are not in any great number.

The Greek delegation is swift to point out that it was Bulgaria that first entered this war, and the so called aggressive warfare performed by Greece was in an effort to neutralise the troops fighting against Serbia and Rumania, not to systematically destroy Bulgaria, and Greece held, and holds, no territorial claims on Bulgaria where ethnic Greeks are not in any great number.

Greek American and Italian American Newspapers start trumpeting the Alliance version of events. However, the mainstream papers in the UK and US point out that the nations of France, Italy, and Greece entered the war nearly a year after the war began, and only when most of the Coalition armies were embroiled fighting the Russians. Editorials are generally still favoring the Coalition, and almost none have any sympathy for the Greek point of view, especially in light of the Greeks invading Bulgaria and Albania during the Balkan War for simple territorial expansion.

Poetic justice is used a lot.

The United States heartily endorses the proposed Norwegian compromise over the Ukraine (opinion in the State Department rises yet again regarding that nation) as a neutral solution for all involved.

A note is passed to the German delegate informing him that should Berlin find this solution over the Ukraine acceptable that Washington would find it much easier to take the Coalition position on many of the remaining points to be hashed out...

Spain only has a few requests in relation to this treaty. THe issues in the Balkans have always been out of Spanish eyes, and therefore the only support that Spain can say is a quote. Serbia, if absorbed by Austria Hungary, will now be citiziens of that empire. THey will be able to move about and united with the other Slavs of the empire. Their border wouldn't exist anymore, and the nationalists could bring much more mischevious natures into the fold than exist currently. Does Austria Hungary really desire that? Simply a note of internal problems to come if Austria Hungary starts absorbing Slav nations.

These are the requirements for peace with Spain currently.

1. A return of Rio Muni and the Canary Islands to Spain. If Germany really wants Rio Muni it can pay for it with a fair price. Tangier would be kept by SPain for internal reasons as it covers the Mediterranian and is a secruity problem for Spain. Germany may keep Rio Muni for no charge if SPain keeps Tangier.

Rabat will be returned to Germany once Spain finished investigations on weapons smuggling. This should take til the end of 1913, or earlier if Germany helps in weeding out Morrocan Aggression. It all depends.

2. France gets Alsaicce Lorraine. WIth feat of arms SPain and France returned this land to the French fold. It belongs with France.

3. A signing of a binding Non-Aggression Pact between Spain, German, and Austria Hungary. If either breaks this pact first, then it shall be considered a War Crime to be punished severly by the International Community.

4. All Japanese interred Civilians Merchant Marine Men are to be returned to SPain unharmed, immedietly.

5. Spain supports the Ukraine Compromise.

That is all SPain wishes to denote. ANd it apologizes for not being able to demobilize yet. French trains are being used, and unfortunitly SPanish troops are secondary in returning home as of the moment.

Greek American and Italian American Newspapers start trumpeting the Alliance version of events. However, the mainstream papers in the UK and US point out that the nations of France, Italy, and Greece entered the war nearly a year after the war began, and only when most of the Coalition armies were embroiled fighting the Russians. Editorials are generally still favoring the Coalition, and almost none have any sympathy for the Greek point of view, especially in light of the Greeks invading Bulgaria and Albania during the Balkan War for simple territorial expansion.

Poetic justice is used a lot.

The nation of Italy sighs as a whole as the western newspapers get it wrong again. More accurate cartoons of Japan picking up and throwing Italy into a Boxing ring with Germany and Russia inside.

Spain comes under criticism in English speaking and Latin American newspapers for its foot dragging regarding demobilization, and for trying to make the talks more complex then they already are.

Criticism arises at home as well as women take to the streets protesting over their sons and husbands and fathers remaining in the Army. On June 12, tens of thousands of women gathered in the streets of Madrid, with similar crowds in Cadiz, Seville and elsewhere throughout Spain.

It was soon called Marcha de las Mujeres.

Germany is not completely happy witht he Ukrainianproposal, but as it gives them some measure of independence, we will accept it as long as it pleases our Ukrainian friends. We would like to make one minor change, that Russian military forces should not be allowed to enter the Ukraine without Ukrainian permission.

Quietly, the Ukraine is informed that Germany will also protect the Ukraine from agression from any corner.

The Bulgarian proposal is also completely backed by Germany, pointing out it does follow previous treaty agreements signed by members of both alliances.

OOC: Haven't been able to get on in a day, so I've missed a lot, trying to catch up.

Germany acepts the Polish borders as ex-Russian Poland and is willing to cede the ethnically Polish lands Germany controls up to(but not including) Posen. Germany also is offering a large economic aid package after the war(at least enough to build a prod center over time).

(I'm assuming the Baltic states are pretty much real borders minus Memel? Also, can someone write up what has already been agreed upon?)

Greece once again states that the Greek city of Thessaloniki, with its 150,000 Greek inhabitants, is rightfully Greek, as is the rest of Greek Macedonia.

Agreements (so far):
--Japan will withdraw from all mainland Russian territory taken since the start of the war.
--Japan will cede the provinces Imperial China occupies to that nation
--Siam/French peace accords (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11970414&postcount=57)
--Norwegian proposal for Ukraine (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11974668&postcount=93)
--Alscace-Lorraine to France(?)
--Borders of Poland and Baltic States

To be decided (among other things):
--Distribution of colonies
--Status of Balkans (especially Bulgarian/Greek border)
--Status of Sakhalin Island
--Status of territories to be stripped from the OE (and the extent of those territories)

Less important, and technically not agreed on:
--Misc. Treaties protecting minorities and neutral states.

Note that there of course may be some errors on this list, but it is a stab at what is going on so far. Just because something is not on here does not mean it isnt going to be addressed. It just means I was lazy, stupid, or didnt consider it real crucial to the general proceedings.

Clemenceau and Delcassé announce French support for the proposed Polish borders, and the Norwegian proposal concerning limited autonomy for Ukraine.

France also adds the fate of the Saar region of Germany (whether or not it is demilitarized, and whether Germany agrees to share coal resources with France) to the list of things to be decided.

OOC: Busy all day, catching up now.

OOC: Almost forgot....

IC: First Sea Lord Battenberg also brings up the issue of Freedom of the Seas.

"Russia," he points out, "must be punished for its illegal use of submarines against neutral shipping in the Baltic. If Russia is allowed to slide off easily, then the use of unrestricted submarine warfare will continue to threaten the sanctity of the Oceans, which is something none of us should allow!"

Danish representatives speak up... "It is clear that current Bulgarian proposal does not have the international support that it would require, particularily with the status of the San Stefano Treaty. My recomendation is that the Bulgarians come up with a new proposal one that does not make so much extravagent territorial claims."

Germany is not completely happy witht he Ukrainianproposal, but as it gives them some measure of independence, we will accept it as long as it pleases our Ukrainian friends. We would like to make one minor change, that Russian military forces should not be allowed to enter the Ukraine without Ukrainian permission.


Rosen dismisses this as proposterous.

"It would be like telling the British that they cannot station troops in South Africa without the Boer's permission. Furthermore, seeing as the Ukranians have already agreed to it, Germany's opinion on this matter is no longer needed.

"The German suggestion is also harmful to both Russia's internal and external security."

Turning to the Greek question Rosen suggests that the Greeks give up Salonika in exchange for Rhodes.

As to the British concerns for the freedom of the seas:

Russia is willing to offer a formal apology to the German merchant marine and pay 3 points to replace the shipping sank.

Rosen dismisses this as proposterous.

"It would be like telling the British that they cannot station troops in South Africa without the Boer's permission. Furthermore, seeing as the Ukranians have already agreed to it, Germany's opinion on this matter is no longer needed.

"The German suggestion is also harmful to both Russia's internal and external security."

Turning to the Greek question Rosen suggests that the Greeks give up Salonika in exchange for Rhodes.

As to the British concerns for the freedom of the seas:

Russia is willing to offer a formal apology to the German merchant marine and pay 3 points to replace the shipping sank.


Polish leader Pilduski remarks that "paying for war damages was expressely recommended against by the Americans, and he for one agrees. Otherwise we will never had peace."

Looking over the Russians, "Perhaps a concession were only 1 Russian soldier is stationed in the Ukraine for every 3 Ukrainian soldiers would be reasonable, as a measure of good faith"

Greece once again states that the Greek city of Thessaloniki, with its 150,000 Greek inhabitants, is rightfully Greek, as is the rest of Greek Macedonia.


Pilduski looks over at the Greeks with amusement. "Smyrna has more Greeks in it then that, and so does Istanbul, but you aren't going to be getting those either. Perhaps you should accept Rhodes, and perhaps Bulgaria should pay to relocate any Greeks in Salonika."

ooc
say 3 points total which thoroughly covers any conceivable costs that such an evacuation would cover.

Japan agrees with the Ukrainian deal.

As for Sakhalin, Japan proposes that North Sakhalin be purchsed for the 15 points mentioned, pointing out Japan is not demanding its Chinese lands, a fair trade.

Polish leader Pilduski remarks that "paying for war damages was expressely recommended against by the Americans, and he for one agrees. Otherwise we will never had peace."

Battenberg retorts. "Then how else are we to punish Russia for violating the Laws of the Sea? Russia must suffer the consequences, or else nations will see the Laws of the Sea as only guidlines that can be broken at any time. No. We must set a precidence now that the Civilized nations of the world will not tolerate such violations."

Germany acepts the Polish borders as ex-Russian Poland and is willing to cede the ethnically Polish lands Germany controls up to(but not including) Posen. Germany also is offering a large economic aid package after the war(at least enough to build a prod center over time).

(I'm assuming the Baltic states are pretty much real borders minus Memel? Also, can someone write up what has already been agreed upon?)

Pilduski indicates willing to accept that, with the economic aid of course.

Mainly out of gratitude for German assistance in Poland gaining its independence.

Parthini;11976399']Battenberg retorts. "Then how else are we to punish Russia for violating the Laws of the Sea? Russia must suffer the consequences, or else nations will see the Laws of the Sea as only guidlines that can be broken at any time. No. We must set a precidence now that the Civilized nations of the world will not tolerate such violations."

Clemenceau passes a note to one of Battenberg's aides, noting that the same can be said for non-aggression treaties, and asking if Britain will show the same determination in punishing those nations which break such treaties.

Parthini;11976399']Battenberg retorts. "Then how else are we to punish Russia for violating the Laws of the Sea? Russia must suffer the consequences, or else nations will see the Laws of the Sea as only guidlines that can be broken at any time. No. We must set a precidence now that the Civilized nations of the world will not tolerate such violations."

Pilduski recommends "in that case, perhaps a conference should be included in this treaty calling for nations to meet and discuss such a treaty banning further instances or even perhaps banning submarines. But truly, wouldn't it be better to get the peace treaty at least taken care of?"

Polish leader Pilduski remarks that "paying for war damages was expressely recommended against by the Americans, and he for one agrees. Otherwise we will never had peace."

Looking over the Russians, "Perhaps a concession were only 1 Russian soldier is stationed in the Ukraine for every 3 Ukrainian soldiers would be reasonable, as a measure of good faith"

Rosen nods to Pilduski. "An excellent suggestion and again compromise. I am glad that Germany's allies are not all as unreasonable as them."

He then turns to the British represantive, "If we are to pay war damages for violating the Freedom of the Seas, then the Germans must pay us some minor reperations for blockading our food supply which, I believe, is also contrary to the laws of war. We are willing to pay reperations to replace the German shipping sunk. But we did not sink a single neutral ship (ooc: Which we didn't.)."

"Britain is willing to condemn the violation of treaties by the Ottoman and Japanese Empires. However, to me, it seems that, at least the Ottoman Empire has suffered enough for its sins.

"However, I digress. Perhaps a separate commission should be set up concerning the violation of international treaties. Britain would be willing to set one up."

"So, in my understanding, Ukraine would be allowed to run it's own internal affairs and run it's own military and police. However, their military and foriegn policy ultimately falls under the command of Stavka and of Russia? And the resources and excess goods not needed for their own uses would be sent to Russia which would, of course, send some of them back into Ukraine in order to help industrialize, repair war damages and maintain nation wide infrastructure, such as the railways? "

"Assuming all of that is true, Russia would find this deal wholly acceptable and would agree to it wholeheartedly."
Irgens nods in assent. "Baron, it is exactly what you've just spoken of. I would clarify the position as falling somewhere between the British with regard to their rule in Ireland and their rule in, say, Australia. Ukraine would be able to conduct its own internal affairs and fund an army and police. Stavka and Russia would assume the broad-picture control of Russia, including the overall military strategy. The same would go economically- ideally, Ukraine would use its resources to pay for everything it needs, then send the remainder to Russia to be used for what Russia needs, cutting out a step and streamlining the process as it currently stands.

"I'd suggest, of course, that the Ukranians be assigned to their region for matters of defense, as their military productivity will well rise when fighting for their own land and freedoms. Mr. Pilsudski's proposal could very well also be a way to address any fears about military readiness. Having a mix of Ukranians to Russians assigned in defense of Ukraine(4:1, as he suggests, being the number that Russia feels is fair) would not only allow Russian soldiers to serve and defend their homeland and Ukranians to serve and defend theirs, but I'm sure makes Ukraine ever the more ready to attempt to carry through Russia's wishes in as timely and crisp a manner as possible.

"But any issues over the letter of what happens is for a later time and is not my place to pry. What matters is that your idea on our proposal is in accord with Norway's and, it seems to me, that the idea has been logically embraced by most. I commend all delegates for making a serious effort to attain peace and some of the inalienable rights our American hosts possess for all peoples."

[OOC- A wordy way to say you thought right. In case there's any misunderstanding.]

Japan agrees with the Ukrainian deal.

As for Sakhalin, Japan proposes that North Sakhalin be purchsed for the 15 points mentioned, pointing out Japan is not demanding its Chinese lands, a fair trade.

Germany must ask what of this proposal as it seems to have been passed over?

Germany is also accepting the 3:1 ratio of Ukrainian to Russian troops in the Ukraine as long as the Ukrainians find that acceptable.

Japan asks if the possibilty of a plebescite in Ukraine is acceptable, to see whether the Ukrainians would rather prefer semi-autonomy, independance, or retention with the Russian Empire

Germany must ask what of this proposal as it seems to have been passed over?

Germany is also accepting the 3:1 ratio of Ukrainian to Russian troops in the Ukraine as long as the Ukrainians find that acceptable.

Rosen states that Russia does not wish to sell it's Sakhalin territory at this time and suggests a return a to the pre-war borders.

Rosen also thanks the German for compromise on the Ukranian issue and the offer for "German protection" of the Ukraine is politely rebuffed, as the Ukraine will be able to protect itself as well as be able to call upon the Russian Army.

Germany would also like to request that both AL and the Rhineland be kept demilitirized unless a state of war exists to further reduce the future threat of war between France and Germany.(Though it is made no secret Germany would rather see a Burgundy created as a buffer state)

Japan asks if the possibilty of a plebescite in Western Ukraine is acceptable, to see whether the Ukrainians would rather prefer semi-autonomy, independance, or retention with the Russian Empire

Rosen responds that if such a motion is to go forward the Japanese must be willing to hold plebiscites in Manchuria and Korea.

"However, let us move on to other sections of the peace treaty. We have just resolved this and we do not want to begin arguements anew."

Rosen responds that if such a motion is to go forward the Japanese must be willing to hold plebiscites in Manchuria and Korea.

"However, let us move on to other sections of the peace treaty. We have just resolved this and we do not want to begin arguements anew."

Japan responds both areas have large amounts of Japanese (more than 1/3 of the pop in Korea, and another 1/3 mixed), and that the Ukrainians have risen up for freedom, and have provided 350,000 soldiers against the Russian Empire

For that matter, what is to become of the 350,000 Ukrainian soldiers serving in the Coalitian?

Rosen states that Russia does not wish to sell it's Sakhalin territory at this time and suggests a return a to the pre-war borders.

Rosen also thanks the German for compromise on the Ukranian issue and the offer for "German protection" of the Ukraine is politely rebuffed, as the Ukraine will be able to protect itself as well as be able to call upon the Russian Army.

Rosen is politely informed that Germany does not care what Russia' thinks of its offer and that regardless of what RUssia' says it still and will always stand.

Tattenbach points out that the Japanese at least deserve the Northern half of Sakhalin island after ceding a large tract of Northern China to the Imperials and considering the fact they do at the moment occupy a massive amount of Russian land right now from Chita all the way to the Bering straits.

Japan responds both areas have large amounts of Japanese (more than 1/3 of the pop in Korea, and another 1/3 mixed), and that the Ukrainians have risen up for freedom, and have provided 350,000 soldiers against the Russian Empire

For that matter, what is to become of the 350,000 Ukrainian soldiers serving in the Coalitian?

Rosen responds that although 1/3 may be Japanese, the other 2/3 may desire independence.

As for the 350,000 Ukranians? They will be allowed to return home and many will undoubtedly help the new semi-autonmous government form it's military.

Germany would also like to request that both AL and the Rhineland be kept demilitirized unless a state of war exists to further reduce the future threat of war between France and Germany.(Though it is made no secret Germany would rather see a Burgundy created as a buffer state)

Clemenceau firmly but politely states that France will not give up Alsace-Lorraine to create a buffer state, especially after so many French soldiers gave their lives to return it to France. However, France would be willing to enter into separate negotiations (i.e. after a peace treaty is signed and the war is over) with Germany concerning the demilitarization of the Rhineland and Alsace-Lorraine.

Emperor Franz Joseph, seeing an opportunity, speaks up for the first time in the conference.

“The Austro-Hungarian Empire has always valued peace above such fleeting things as national glory or power. It was the duty to its ally Germany, the protection of the oppressed people in Russia (though the AHE admits it has a far from perfect record itself) and then to avenge the death of the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne. Therefore Austria-Hungary finds itself willing to support the Ukrainian proposal as well as turning land over to an independent Poland. However, the issue of what will be done to protect the troops and their families serving in the Ukrainian Army needs to be dealt with.”

“The Austro-Hungarian Empire however, does take a firm stance against the ceding of land from Germany to France or visa versa. France and its people have strived to retrieve AL from Germany as soon as it was lost, which I personally believe may have lead to their involvement in this war. If Germany was to be striped of this land, why would their reaction be any different? Would the average German not long to be reunited with his fellow countrymen in the ceded land just as the Frenchman did with his? Would this not bring more strife to an already divided Europe? No I say, better to have AL become a part of a new state, neither French nor Germany with the duty to divide the two nations and to act as a neutral state between them. Only this way will both Germany and France finally no longer be able to look at each other not as enemies but as fellow Europeans.”

“As to the situation in the East, the Austro-Hungarian Empire obviously supports its Japanese brethren and their actions but cannot comment on them or express an opinion on an area where the AHE has no specific interests. Furthermore, I would like to thank the American and Norwegian delegates for their willingness to put up with both sides bickering."

Rosen is politely informed that Germany does not care what Russia' thinks of its offer and that regardless of what RUssia' says it still and will always stand.

Tattenbach points out that the Japanese at least deserve the Northern half of Sakhalin island after ceding a large tract of Northern China to the Imperials and considering the fact they do at the moment occupy a massive amount of Russian land right now from Chita all the way to the Bering straits.


"They may technically occupy it, but I do not believe it's army is in any condition to continue the fight or defend it, if the battle around Irkutsk a few weeks ago are any evidence.

"Furthermore, the Japanese are in no condition to demand soverign Chinese territory which was taken from Imperial China after the horrific destruction of Peking."

"The wording says that the Japanese may purchase. However, the Russian government does not wish to sell."

Just like Russia is not in a position to retake Belarus by force of arms, but yet Germany has no issue with turning it over.

Tattenbach reminds the Rusians that Sakhalin has absolutely no economic value and barely any strategic or military importance, if any. It would be purely symbolic for the Japanese, and compared to Poland or the Baltics, a loss not even worth mentioning in Russia. If "Losing" half an island can really be coutned as a loss in an empire the size of Russia.

Rosen responds that although 1/3 may be Japanese, the other 2/3 may desire independence.

As for the 350,000 Ukranians? They will be allowed to return home and many will undoubtedly help the new semi-autonmous government form it's military.

Japan points out neither have revolted even when Japan suffered setbacks, and many have served in the army against Russia.

"They may technically occupy it, but I do not believe it's army is in any condition to continue the fight or defend it, if the battle around Irkutsk a few weeks ago are any evidence.

"Furthermore, the Japanese are in no condition to demand soverign Chinese territory which was taken from Imperial China after the horrific destruction of Peking."

"The wording says that the Japanese may purchase. However, the Russian government does not wish to sell."

The Austro-Hungarian delegation reluctently mutters an agreement with the Russian delegate.

The United States prefers Alscace-Lorraine go to France, and also endorses that both AL and the Rhineland should remained demilitarized.

“ No I say, better to have AL become a part of a new state, neither French nor Germany with the duty to divide the two nations and to act as a neutral state between them. Only this way will both Germany and France finally no longer be able to look at each other not as enemies but as fellow Europeans.”

The French delegation says nothing, but the icy stares coming from nearly the entire delegation, President and Foreign Minister included, make it absolutely clear that France considers the Austro-Hungarian Empire a mere lap-dog of the Germans, parroting the will of Berlin. Finally, Delcassé speaks.

"France has made its position on the issue of Alsace and Lorraine absolutely clear on several occasions already--perhaps the Austrians would do well to listen to others on occasion." Rather than the Kaiser, is left unspoken. "France will not cede Alsace-Lorraine to create a new state. Alsace and Lorraine are French, and shall remain as such in perpetuity."

Just like Russia is not in a position to retake Belarus by force of arms, but yet Germany has no issue with turning it over.

Tattenbach reminds the Rusians that Sakhalin has absolutely no economic value and barely any strategic or military importance, if any. It would be purely symbolic for the Japanese, and compared to Poland or the Baltics, a loss not even worth mentioning in Russia. If "Losing" half an island can really be coutned as a loss in an empire the size of Russia.

"Sakhalin remains one of Russia's only Pacific possesions and as of now has Russia citizens inhabiting it. The Belarus is not the subject of discussion here. I believe that the treaty already outlines the return of said territory."

"And as I have pointed out, the terms stipulate that Japan may purchase, not will. Russia does not wish to sell territory at this time."

Crown prince Ferdinand voices his support for the Ukrainian proposal, and quietly begins discussing the fate of Rumania. He proposes the following.

-Rumania recieves Northern Dobruja in exchange for reparations to the Kingdom of Bulgaria (1 production center or equivalent cost [24 points])
-Rumania will limit it's military to no more then 150,000 man army including reserves; 2 air units, and 1 Light Crusier plus it's escorts
-In exchange for greater military freedom as specified above, Rumania will allow the Germans to garrsion Ploesti with 1 Garrison, and will sell it's oil only to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Germany, and Bulgaria at standard European market price or use it for domestic purposes unless it recieves permission from the above countries.
-Rumania will sign a permanent non-aggression Pact with Bulgaria

The French delegation says nothing, but the icy stares coming from nearly the entire delegation, President and Foreign Minister included, make it absolutely clear that France considers the Austro-Hungarian Empire a mere lap-dog of the Germans, parroting the will of Berlin. Finally, Delcassé speaks.

"France has made its position on the issue of Alsace and Lorraine absolutely clear on several occasions already--perhaps the Austrians would do well to listen to others on occasion." Rather than the Kaiser, is left unspoken. "France will not cede Alsace-Lorraine to create a new state. Alsace and Lorraine are French, and shall remain as such in perpetuity."

The Austro-Hungarian delegation is aware of France's position and merely points out that it finds such a position ridiculous and unreasonable. However, if France wishes to continue the animosity between France and Germany, something that Austria-Hungary’s proposal would seek to avoid, by the proposal not benefiting either nation, it is on every last Frenchmen’s head. Either way, the Austro-Hungarian Empire does not care. If the king-killing atheists of France wish to continue the war, the Austro-Hungarian Empire will gladly help Germany turn France into the German Kaiser’s personal slave labor camp.

"Sakhalin remains one of Russia's only Pacific possesions and as of now has Russia citizens inhabiting it. The Belarus is not the subject of discussion here. I believe that the treaty already outlines the return of said territory."

"And as I have pointed out, the terms stipulate that Japan may purchase, not will. Russia does not wish to sell territory at this time."

Russia would do well to remember nothing in this treaty has yet been finalized.

Germany does not wish to give up AL to the French, but we are in the spirit of compromise and peace.

The Austro-Hungarian delegation is aware of France's position and merely points out that it finds such a position ridiculous and unreasonable. However, if France wishes to continue the animosity between France and Germany, something that Austria-Hungary’s proposal would seek to avoid, by the proposal not benefiting either nation, it is on every last Frenchmen’s head. Either way, the Austro-Hungarian Empire does not care. If the king-killing atheists of France wish to continue the war, the Austro-Hungarian Empire will gladly help Germany turn France into the German Kaiser’s personal slave labor camp.

Beveridge with a noticeable strain in his voice informs the Austrians that they are quite out of order and that though their proposal may have been made with the noblest of intentions, there is not only no need to torpedo progress on a plan that seems as if it could have German AND French support (AL to France, it and Rhineland demobilized), but there is even less need to escalate the rhetoric to insults.

Crown prince Ferdinand voices his support for the Ukrainian proposal, and quietly begins discussing the fate of Rumania. He proposes the following.

-Rumania recieves Northern Dobruja in exchange for reparations to the Kingdom of Bulgaria (1 production center or equivalent cost [24 points])
-Rumania will limit it's military to no more then 150,000 men including reserves, 2 air units, and 1 Light Crusier plus it's escorts
-In exchange for greater military freedom as specified above, Rumania will allow the Germans to garrsion Ploesti with 1 Garrison, and will sell it's oil only to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Germany, and Bulgaria at standard European market price or use it for domestic uses unless it recieves permission from the above countries.
-Rumania will sign a permanent non-aggression Pact with Bulgaria

At first glance, the Austro-Hungarian Empire finds no fault with this proposal with the exception that the AHE finds it neccessary for Rumania to officially and eternally renounce all claims on Trannsylvania and to sign a non-aggression pact with the AHE for which the Austro-Hungarian Empire quietly promises to push for German acceptence of the status of the military forces.

Russia would do well to remember nothing in this treaty has yet been finalized.

Germany does not wish to give up AL to the French, but we are in the spirit of compromise and peace.


Rosen finally relents and says that the Russian government will give up Sakhalin in exchange for fifteen points from Japan in a lump sum.

Beveridge with a noticeable strain in his voice informs the Austrians that they are quite out of order and that though their proposal may have been made with the noblest of intentions, there is not only no need to torpedo progress on a plan that seems as if it could have German AND French support (AL to France, it and Rhineland demobilized), but there is even less need to escalate the rhetoric to insults.

Emperor Franz apologizes to Beveridge for making comments that threaten the peace process. The idea of more innocent people dying such as his heir did makes him quite upset. He noticeably does not apologize however, to the French delegation for the insults.

Rosen finally relents and says that the Russian government will give up Sakhalin in exchange for fifteen points from Japan in a lump sum.

Japan will agree

Crown prince Ferdinand voices his support for the Ukrainian proposal, and quietly begins discussing the fate of Rumania. He proposes the following.

-Rumania recieves Northern Dobruja in exchange for reparations to the Kingdom of Bulgaria (1 production center or equivalent cost [24 points])
-Rumania will limit it's military to no more then 150,000 men including reserves, 2 air units, and 1 Light Crusier plus it's escorts
-In exchange for greater military freedom as specified above, Rumania will allow the Germans to garrsion Ploesti with 1 Garrison, and will sell it's oil only to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Germany, and Bulgaria at standard European market price or use it for domestic uses unless it recieves permission from the above countries.
-Rumania will sign a permanent non-aggression Pact with Bulgaria

Rumania will not recieve Northern Dobruja as they have done nothing to earn it. Rumania has yet to win a war or abide by an agreement since the turn of the century. Germany will allow Rumania to maintain an army of 150,000 men but will not allow any offensive weaponry or heavy artillery.(IE no arty units, no motorized units, no regular/heavy inf corps) and will not allow the Rumanian airforce to have more than 100 fighter aircraft(1 fighter unit) the restof the Rumanian airforce(1 unit) having to comprise of recon aircraft. No bomber aircraft of any kind are to be allowed.

At first glance, the Austro-Hungarian Empire finds no fault with this proposal with the exception that the AHE finds it neccessary for Rumania to officially and eternally renounce all claims on Trannsylvania and to sign a non-aggression pact with the AHE for which the Austro-Hungarian Empire quietly promises to push for German acceptence of the status of the military forces.

Crown Prince Ferdinand and Crown Princess Marie look disgruntled at the idea, but after a whispered conference with the diplomatic staff, Ferdinand gives his assent for the idea.

Rumania will not recieve Northern Dobruja as they have done nothing to earn it. Rumania has yet to win a war or abide by an agreement since the turn of the century. Germany will allow Rumania to maintain an army of 150,000 men but will not allow any offensive weaponry or heavy artillery.(IE no arty units, no motorized units, no regular/heavy inf corps) and will not allow the Rumanian airforce to have more than 100 fighter aircraft(1 fighter unit) the restof the Rumanian airforce(1 unit) having to comprise of recon aircraft. No bomber aircraft of any kind are to be allowed.

Crown Prince Ferdinand notes that Bulgaria has already assented to consider returning Northern Dobruja.

Crown Prince Ferdinand notes that Bulgaria has already assented to consider returning Northern Dobruja.


Prime Minister Gonnohyoe notes this does not seem to guarantee anything

Prime Minister Gonnohyoe notes this does not seem to guarantee anything

Crown Prince Ferdinand gives the Prime Minister a steely glare and polietly asks him to stay out of a region that is of no concern to him.

Prime Minister Gonnohyoe notes this does not seem to guarantee anything

Rosen points out that it does mean it is on the table, however.

President Clemenceau ignores the Austrian remark, as one is wont to do when dealing with the yipping of dogs. However, one of his aides notes in a whispered remark to a Russian colleague that "king-killing" is a better term for the Germans. Another laugh is shared over the fact that the Austrian Emperor seems to consider a nation where eighty percent of the people are devout Catholics to be "atheist."

Clemenceau congratulates Rosen on working out an agreement over Sakhalin, and has an aide pass a note to the Germans, pointing out that Alsace-Lorraine is not Germany's to give, and the French government would greatly appreciate it if the Germans were to stop pretending that it was.

Sir Edward Grey speaks. "I implore all representatives here to remember that we are civilized peoples and as such, we should act like it, instead of bickering like pigs."

"As such, Britain feels that creation of Alsace-Lorraine as a buffer state would make much sense, and the idea is supported by the British Delegacy."

Clemenceau is told that AL is very much Germanys to give up, and if France wants tot ake a different atitude it can either return to the field or it can take the same attitude with all tracts of land under Coalition occupation, including French West and Equatorial Africa and Belarus and Siberia.

Clemenceau is told that AL is very much Germanys to give up, and if France wants tot ake a different atitude it can either return to the field or it can take the same attitude with all tracts of land under Coalition occupation, including French West and Equatorial Africa and Belarus and Siberia.

The key difference there is that Alsace-Lorraine has been liberated by Allied troops, and is no longer under the boot of German militarism. Of course, Germany is welcome to disagree with the nearly 1 million French troops in Alsace-Lorraine and the Rhineland, if it wishes.

Clemenceau suggests that Germany acknowledge that it is not the dictator of events in all of Europe, so that the peace conference may progress beyond petty arguments.

Beveridge notes that there appear to be two possible plans on the table for Alsace-Lorraine.

1) AL to France. Both AL and the Rhineland remain demilitarized

2) AL becomes independent as a buffer state.

Please consider that both plans will provide peace on this front in the future, but only the first plan will allow the war to end now, as France will continue to fight to keep its territory. The Americans implore/request/insert asking nicely phrase here the British to back the 1st plan instead of the second.

After much deliberation, Britain announces that it is willing to let Alsace-Lorraine return to France under the condition that it is demilitarized and that Germany recieve more generous benefits colonially.

Beveridge notes that there appear to be two possible plans on the table for Alscace-Lorraine.

1) AL to France. Both AL and the Rhineland remain demilitarized

2) AL becomes independent as a buffer state.

Please consider that both plans will provide peace on this front in the future, but only the first plan will allow the war to end now, as France will continue to fight to keep its territory. The Americans implore/request/insert asking nicely phrase here the British to back the 1st plan instead of the second.

Prime Minister Gonnohyoe, awar he is out of his area of expertise, asks, "would the Germans fight if option 1 was upheld?"

Germany would not be happy, but we would not continue this war over it.

Rosen brings up one last thing in regards to the Ukraine. That is, that no other nation shall attempt to interfere in internal matters of the Ukraine or Russia and that a treaty shall be signed as such (specifically, Germany and Austria-Hungary). After all, that's what led to this war in the first place.

On a side note, the Austro-Hungarian Empire is willing to turn over the parts of its Empire wherein the majority are of Polish ethnicity.

Rosen brings up one last thing in regards to the Ukraine. That is, that no other nation shall attempt to interfere in internal matters of the Ukraine or Russia and that a treaty shall be signed as such (specifically, Germany and Austria-Hungary). After all, that's what led to this war in the first place.

Unless the Ukraine should request differently.

Rosen brings up one last thing in regards to the Ukraine. That is, that no other nation shall attempt to interfere in internal matters of the Ukraine or Russia and that a treaty shall be signed as such (specifically, Germany and Austria-Hungary). After all, that's what led to this war in the first place.

Emperor Franz Josef once again finds himself in agreement with the dirty Asiatic-Slav mongrels that make up the Russian delegation. He does wish that such a treaty be separate from the current negotiations however.

Emperor Franz Josef once again finds himself in agreement with the dirty Asiatic-Slav mongrels that make up the Russian delegation. He does wish that such a treaty be separate from the current negotiations however.

If Rosen could read minds, Franz Josef would be in trouble. As he cannot, however, Rosen simply acknowledges the Austrian agreement and proposes it be written into the peace treaty.

Furthermore, he would like to define the borders of the Ukraine and suggests that the Eastern boundary be the Dneiper River.

"So have we reached an agreement on Alscaice Lorraine? The giving of it to France, and a demilitarization of the RHineland and Alsaice Lorraine?"

"If so, then Spain wishes to get to the matter of Morocco and the Canary Islands. ANd it's 3 other points that seemed to have been ignored."

1. A return of Rio Muni and the Canary Islands to Spain. If Germany really wants Rio Muni it can pay for it with a fair price. Tangier would be kept by SPain for internal reasons as it covers the Mediterranian and is a secruity problem for Spain. Germany may keep Rio Muni for no charge if SPain keeps Tangier.

Rabat will be returned to Germany once Spain finished investigations on weapons smuggling. This should take til the end of 1913, or earlier if Germany helps in weeding out Morrocan Aggression. It all depends.


3. A signing of a binding Non-Aggression Pact between Spain, German, and Austria Hungary. If either breaks this pact first, then it shall be considered a War Crime to be punished severly by the International Community.

4. All Japanese interred Civilians Merchant Marine Men are to be returned to SPain unharmed, immedietly.

(Seriously OOC I have to leave on Wensday and I'd like to know that these issues were resolved somewhat. As they are all SPain really cares about. So please can be administer them or at least comment on them.)

ANd here is the link to it and all to demobilization. "So have we reached an agreement on Alscaice Lorraine? The giving of it to France, and a demilitarization of the RHineland and Alsaice Lorraine?"

"If so, then Spain wishes to get to the matter of Morocco and the Canary Islands. ANd it's 3 other points that seemed to have been ignored."

1. A return of Rio Muni and the Canary Islands to Spain. If Germany really wants Rio Muni it can pay for it with a fair price. Tangier would be kept by SPain for internal reasons as it covers the Mediterranian and is a secruity problem for Spain. Germany may keep Rio Muni for no charge if SPain keeps Tangier.

Rabat will be returned to Germany once Spain finished investigations on weapons smuggling. This should take til the end of 1913, or earlier if Germany helps in weeding out Morrocan Aggression. It all depends.


3. A signing of a binding Non-Aggression Pact between Spain, German, and Austria Hungary. If either breaks this pact first, then it shall be considered a War Crime to be punished severly by the International Community.

4. All Japanese interred Civilians Merchant Marine Men are to be returned to SPain unharmed, immedietly.

(Seriously OOC I have to leave on Wensday and I'd like to know that these issues were resolved somewhat. As they are all SPain really cares about. So please can be administer them or at least comment on them.)

(Also link to demobilization. http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=497212&page=9 )

Germany would also like to request that both AL and the Rhineland be kept demilitirized unless a state of war exists to further reduce the future threat of war between France and Germany.(Though it is made no secret Germany would rather see a Burgundy created as a buffer state)

ooc
oh the English speaking press LOVE that idea... big points for Germany (lol)

"Sakhalin remains one of Russia's only Pacific possesions and as of now has Russia citizens inhabiting it. The Belarus is not the subject of discussion here. I believe that the treaty already outlines the return of said territory."

"And as I have pointed out, the terms stipulate that Japan may purchase, not will. Russia does not wish to sell territory at this time."

Even the press in San Francisco, unhappily, admits Japan might be right regarding Sakkalin, especially when Russia gets all of Siberia back in exchange.

ooc
oh the English speaking press LOVE that idea... big points for Germany (lol)

ooc: of course, you suggested it to him.

ooc: of course, you suggested it to him.

ooc
actually no... just the Burgundy part, not the DMZ part

ooc
actually no... just the Burgundy part, not the DMZ part

ooc: Oh I thought you were talking about Burgundy in terms of Western Press. Anyhow.

ic:

Italy requires that Quemoy remain Italian as it has not been removed from Italian hands. It is well known that Japan would prefer that it be pryed from our grip.

"So have we reached an agreement on Alscaice Lorraine? The giving of it to France, and a demilitarization of the RHineland and Alsaice Lorraine?"

"If so, then Spain wishes to get to the matter of Morocco and the Canary Islands. ANd it's 3 other points that seemed to have been ignored."

1. A return of Rio Muni and the Canary Islands to Spain. If Germany really wants Rio Muni it can pay for it with a fair price. Tangier would be kept by SPain for internal reasons as it covers the Mediterranian and is a secruity problem for Spain. Germany may keep Rio Muni for no charge if SPain keeps Tangier. )

Pilduski replies that a simple return to pre war status quo is more then fair, especially as both sides holds something of value to the other


Rabat will be returned to Germany once Spain finished investigations on weapons smuggling. This should take til the end of 1913, or earlier if Germany helps in weeding out Morrocan Aggression. It all depends. )

Pilduski asks with eyebrows raised whether the rest of the world is expected to hold peace until some arms smuggling by criminals is investigated. If that is the Spanish stand, then why should Spain even be included in this treaty.


3. A signing of a binding Non-Aggression Pact between Spain, German, and Austria Hungary. If either breaks this pact first, then it shall be considered a War Crime to be punished severly by the International Community. )

Pilduski remarks that this is completely outside of the scope of the negotiations suggested by both the Coalition and the neutrals who are present and even Spanish allies and should be dropped.


4. All Japanese interred Civilians Merchant Marine Men are to be returned to SPain unharmed, immedietly. )

"Naturually" Pilduski replies, "a general prisoner exchange is part of the peace treaty process."

Italy requires that Quemoy remain Italian as it has not been removed from Italian hands. It is well known that Japan would prefer that it be pryed from our grip.

Pilduski points out that the terms could be altered so that Italy keeps its possession of Quomoy, but short of Italy keeping its entire military in the Far East, realistically, it can't defend it in the long run if an Asian or Pacific power decided to remove Italy from it, no more then Portugal could defend Macua

So Italy removing its military forces from Quomoy isn't a big sacrifice that he can see

ooc
Pilduski by the way would have considerable respect for his feat of raising a Polish national army, even if it was with German arms.

OOC: wasn't it the treaty of Neuilly-sur-Seine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Neuilly-sur-Seine) that negated all Bulgarian Claims and made the Borders of Bulgaria fixed?

IC: The Prince maintains that the treaty of Berlin established that the overlordship of the Bulgaria be divided between the autonomos Bulgarian Authority, Eastern Rumelia and the Sublime Porte, thus when the Sublime Porte declared Bulgarian independance it gives up the overlordship over these territories, as since Eastern Rumelia has united with Bulgaria the overlordship and ownership of these lands should clearly revert to the Autonomos Bulgarian Authority which is now the Kingdom of Bulgaria.

However the Sublime Porte was coerced by the the Bellegerent Greek to handover rightful Bulgarian territory to Greece, shortly thereafter the Russian-backed Greco-Rumanian Horde invaded Bulgaria and Albania only a short while out of their independance. Since then Bulgaria has laid claims to these lands and hoped to achieve these goals peacefully as seen by late negotiations being held with Albania and the invitation of a Rumanian delegate to Tirana. However this second aggression has convinced us that Greece and Rumania are simply untrustworthy.

This is why after careful consideration, it has been decided that the no part of the established Bulgarian territory of Dobrudja is to be ceded as this nation shall not reward outright aggression on the Bulgarian people.

Thus Bulgarian Demands for Salonika will stand, however as for the territory of Greek Macedonia we feel that Greek actions have destablised the Ethnic composition of the area and will no longer claim it as Bulgarian Territory. Although the following proposal is presented to the Albanian Delegate:

"An autonomos territory of Macedonia shall be created, this will comprise of Macedonia including Greek Macedonia excluding Dominantly Ethnic Albanian parts (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9c/Macedonia_ethnic.png) -mixed is excluded also- of Macedonia:
-Macedonia shall be an autonomous Economic Protectorate of Albania (they will handle and get the resources but pay for social services).
-Macedonia shall retain a fully volentary Military, Bulgaria shall provide Military aid (I pay for Maintenance).
-Macedonia shall enter into the Mutual Defensive Pact Between Albania and Bulgaria.
-Macedonia shall be ruled by an elected Prince and will have greater freedoms and rights as an autonomous state.
-Macedonia's forigen Affairs shall be supervised jointly by Bulgaria and Albania."

Finally Bulgaria demands that the Military restrictions imposed in Oslo be re-imposed on Greece and Rumania in addition to a clause calling for the prohibition of any forigen troops on either nation's soil without the mutual consent of Albania, Bulgaria, The Dual Monarchy and possibly Macedonia.

1. A return of Rio Muni and the Canary Islands to Spain. If Germany really wants Rio Muni it can pay for it with a fair price. Tangier would be kept by SPain for internal reasons as it covers the Mediterranian and is a secruity problem for Spain. Germany may keep Rio Muni for no charge if SPain keeps Tangier.

Rabat will be returned to Germany once Spain finished investigations on weapons smuggling. This should take til the end of 1913, or earlier if Germany helps in weeding out Morrocan Aggression. It all depends.


3. A signing of a binding Non-Aggression Pact between Spain, German, and Austria Hungary. If either breaks this pact first, then it shall be considered a War Crime to be punished severly by the International Community.

4. All Japanese interred Civilians Merchant Marine Men are to be returned to SPain unharmed, immedietly.


Tattenbach informs the Spaniards that for starters, the territory of Rio Muni no longer exists, instead it is now an inegrel part of German Kameroon. The Spaniards are reminded that Rio Muni was SOLD to Germany years before the war, and so is not an issue at this conference, unless the Spaniards are offering to buy it back?

As far as Morocco, Germany is demanding a return to pre-war borders and is also demanding that the Sultan be released and allowed to return to Rabat, German Rabat. In return Germany will see to it that the Canary islands are handed over.

Hoping to avoid further delays in other areas of the proceedings, Minister Delcassé passes three separate proposals to the Americans, both to get neutral input into the merits of the proposals, and to outline France’s goals for the conference, which for the moment has become disorganized:

1. France will negotiate details of demilitarization with Germany after a peace treaty is signed and the war is ended, not before. France will not consider demilitarizing Alsace-Lorraine, as it provides France with its best natural defenses, unless Germany agrees to demilitarize the Rhineland and other territories adjacent to Alsace and Lorraine.

2. There will be nothing more than defensive fortifications and minimal garrisons in these regions (AL, Rhineland, and German border).

3. France will agree to demilitarize Alsace-Lorraine if Germany agrees to demilitarize the Rhineland and other territories adjacent to Alsace and Lorraine; return all French colonies occupied by German and Japanese forces, including the various islands in the Indian Ocean and Pacific (the Spratleys), and excepting Equatorial Africa (goes to Germany); and to share the coal resources in Saar.

Privately, the American and British delegates are told that France would not be averse to handing the Niger colony over to Britain, to create a buffer between French West Africa and German Equatorial Africa.

Crown Prince Ferdinand pointedly notes that the Rumanian people were the victims of Bulgarian, German, and Austro-Hungarian aggression. The only reason that Rumanian troops were forced to enter Bulgarian territory was in order to preserve the integrity and viability of their army as a fighting force. Rumania's intent was, and always had been, to stay neutral.

Again, he riterates the desire of his government for peace, wondering if there is some way in which Rumania can purchase North Dobruja from the Bulgarians, again offering reparations.

"We see", (Though how you invaded Rio Muni still confuses me as it was apart of your colonies. You invaded it when you invaded the French Equatorial area.)

"We can agree to most of those statements that Germany made. Status quo and a return of the Tangier and Rabat areas in Morocco would be a good idea. And we would like to return them when the Canaries are returned. A fair trade. Rio Muni isn't adamant in our schemes, so we can let that go. As long as you agree to a fair trade of the Canaries for Rabat and Tangier, then that issue has been agreed to."

"The Sultan can not be released. In fact it would be impossible to release him. In order to release the SUltan, he would have to be a SPanish prisoner, which he is not." THe diplomat gave a little smile.

"But, as we said Spain does not have the Sultan as a prisoner. Currently he and his family are in the Spanish Palace in Madrid as guests of the Queen. A guest can not be released. A guest can only decide to leave. If he desires, we can send him to Rabat, but only if Germany helps investigate the current arms rise in Morocco. THis is a threat to Germany, France and SPain. We will not make these precedings grow longer with it, but it's something Germany and Spain must discuss later. But the Sultan's location is not important to the precedings as the return of all held territories in Morocco and a Status Quo. That means Tangier and Rabat are German, and the Canaries (Which are an Island chain of Morocco) are Spanish."

Rosen makes a pointed comment, commenting on how the Coalition seems eager to punish the Balkan states for violating international law, yet remain quiet and in fact wish lenient terms on Japan and the Ottoman Empire who violated Non-Aggression Pacts.

In regards to Macedonia and North Dobruja, he suggests that plebiscites be held in both of the areas in order to stop ethnic tensions once and for all.

Crown Prince Ferdinand pointedly notes that the Rumanian people were the victims of Bulgarian, German, and Austro-Hungarian aggression. The only reason that Rumanian troops were forced to enter Bulgarian territory was in order to preserve the integrity and viability of their army as a fighting force. Rumania's intent was, and always had been, to stay neutral.

Again, he riterates the desire of his government for peace, wondering if there is some way in which Rumania can purchase North Dobruja from the Bulgarians, again offering reparations.

Britain feels that this issue is solely between the nations of Rumania and Bulgaria, and should Bulgaria be willing to sell North Dobruja to Rumania, then Britain sees no reason why it could not occur once the final terms are signed.

As for France's terms, Britain feels that they are generous and would benefit peace in Europe very much so. Privately, Britain lets France know that its final term would be very acceptable to London.

Britain is also very anxious to know of the demands of the Near East, especially regarding the lands once held by the Ottoman Turks.

Crown Prince Ferdinand pointedly notes that the Rumanian people were the victims of Bulgarian, German, and Austro-Hungarian aggression. The only reason that Rumanian troops were forced to enter Bulgarian territory was in order to preserve the integrity and viability of their army as a fighting force. Rumania's intent was, and always had been, to stay neutral.

Again, he riterates the desire of his government for peace, wondering if there is some way in which Rumania can purchase North Dobruja from the Bulgarians, again offering reparations.

An excrept of the treaty of Oslo is shown, highlighting the terms which Rumania has violated.

The Prince informs the Rumanian Prince that the offer would have been worthwhile under more favourable circumstances and a more creditable Rumanian government. The offer is kindly turned down.

The Prince whispers to one of his collegues, "Huh! They break the treaty, then they lose, then accuse us, then they want us to be leniant with them and just handover an access to the Black Sea"

In regards to Macedonia and North Dobruja, he suggests that plebiscites be held in both of the areas in order to stop ethnic tensions once and for all.

The Russian delegate is kindly asked to stop asking people to do what they themselves are unwilling to do. Especially in regards to ethnic minorities.

July 1913
Talks continue, and in democratic countries like France and Italy, and to a lesser extent Germany, pressure grows to get a peace treaty signed and return to peace.

Even in non democratic countries like Spain, Bulgaria, Russia and Austria Hungary officials note that anger is starting to simmer as the people want an end to wartime economies, mobilization, and the threat of the war starting up again.

The main issue most people have regarding the treaty is that the main issues have been resolved but the whole peace treaty is being held up because of border issues in the Balkans and colonial holdings of little value.

The socialists and communists begin distributing "Peace Now" leaflets in nearly every European country involved in the war

The Spanish representative raises his arm to be calle dupon by the American delegate and coughs into his hand as he stands up. "I apologize to interuppt the precedings of this tribunal. But it would be a good idea to collect our thoughts and write a list of what all nations have already agreed to."

"It seems the Siam and Indochina question have been solved. Alscaice and Lorraine has a few kinks to work out, but it seems most support is to have it returned to France. Morocco becoming the pre-war status seems to be the accepted agreement, with the Canaries to be handed back to Spain supported by Britain, and Germany if Rabat and Tangier are combined and Spain agrees to the pre-war borders. Which it has. French Equatorial Africa is to become German. ANd it seems the most support is to have the Ukraine under a dominion status. Poland and FInland, and (I forgot the countries name sorry.) are to be free and independent, with Poland getting parts of Germany, Russia, and Austria Hungary."

"Is this correct?"

He paused. "It seems the most disagreement is in the Balkans. And with what to do with the Asian colonies. As such I think we should write down a list of what we have agreed too, and I believe I named all. This will allow us to concentrate on the points we have left to discuss."

"In truth what happens in the Balkans matters little to Spain, and if the Canaries are to be returned, Rabat and Tangier can be returned as soon as we can write the paperwork. (Ergo a week or two.) And Spain can hammer out future treaties with Germany and Austria Hungary in the future. Unless someone wants to claim territories in Morocco or Japan wishes to keep the Canaries, Spain is ready to sign."

(Spain is semi-democratic. It's a weird government. I've learned from reading. Spain can't become a Republic quickly. It's got to be nice and slow. Taking decades. Or else you end up with a Civil War.)

Although the following proposal is presented to the Albanian Delegate:

"An autonomos territory of Macedonia shall be created, this will comprise of Macedonia including Greek Macedonia excluding Dominantly Ethnic Albanian parts (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9c/Macedonia_ethnic.png) -mixed is excluded also- of Macedonia:
-Macedonia shall be an autonomous Economic Protectorate of Albania (they will handle and get the resources but pay for social services).
-Macedonia shall retain a fully volentary Military, Bulgaria shall provide Military aid (I pay for Maintenance).
-Macedonia shall enter into the Mutual Defensive Pact Between Albania and Bulgaria.
-Macedonia shall be ruled by an elected Prince and will have greater freedoms and rights as an autonomous state.
-Macedonia's forigen Affairs shall be supervised jointly by Bulgaria and Albania."

The Albanian delegation politely rejects the Bulgarian offer, although it might have its own demands concerning Greek Macedonia later (ooc: just watching and waiting for now, GB will post if and when they have any demands).

The Sultan of Morocco (the pro-French one in Fes) sends a letter to the peace conference requesting that the Imperial city of Rabat be returned to his direct rule (ooc: he has direct rule of the three Imperial Cities in French Morocco and would have had control of the fourth, Rabat, had the Germans not insisted on it being under their direct control).

OOC: A reminder, there are presently two Sultans of Morocco, the present official Sultan who everyone recognizes (even Germany, who de facto recognized him by entering into treaties with his government regarding Rabat) as the ruler of French Morocco (and how has his own army) and the ex-Sultan that France deposed, one of the former local administrators of German Morocco.

Albania revises its position somewhat after consulting with its government. It wants the ethnic Albanian areas (as indicated earlier), but a fully independent Macedonia (the Macedonian parts). Albania suggests that Bulgaria, Macedonia and Albania discuss further defense agreements at a later time in private. (OOC as Albania realizes it needs at least ONE friend in the Balkans, and Bulgaria by process of elimination is it). Albania also feels that Skopje should be the capital of the new nation of Macedonia, and that in addition, the city of Korkyra, which Albania states has a majority population of Albanians, should be in Albania instead of Greece.

Rosen endorses the Albanian idea of a truly indpendent Macedonia (not a puppet) and then drops the Balkan issue, saying "We should leave the Balkans up to the Balkan nations. We do not need to concern ourselves with them any longer. I think we should now move on to the final issues in front of us: the Alsac-Lorraine and the Mid-East. Russia, France and Japan must work out the Far East, as we still believe that the Japanese must be punished somehow for their breaching of international law."

Rosen also endorses the French terms regarding Alsac Lorraine and the colonies.


The Russian government, to some extent, publicizes the fact that they are giving up large tracts of land to free ethnic minorities.

In private, the Spanish government is told to stop dragging it's feet.

Germany presents the following terms regarding Rumania, pointing out that most of that list is an exact copy of previous Rumanian proposals.

-Rumania will return to its prewar borders
-Rumania will limit it's military to no more then 150,000 man army including reserves; 2 air units, but will not allow any offensive weaponry or heavy artillery.(IE no arty units, no motorized units, no regular/heavy inf corps) and will not allow the Rumanian airforce to have more than 100 fighter aircraft(1 fighter unit) the restof the Rumanian airforce(1 unit) having to comprise of recon aircraft. No bomber aircraft of any kind are to be allowed.
-In exchange for greater military freedom as specified above, Rumania will allow the Germans to garrison Ploesti with 1 Garrison, and will sell it's oil only to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Germany, and Bulgaria at standard European market price or use it for domestic purposes unless it recieves permission from the above countries.
-Rumania will sign a permanent non-aggression Pact with Bulgaria



Germany also heavily backs Bulgaria on the Greek issue in Salonika and Greek Macedonia.



As for Morocco, Germany will agree with Spain, Germany will hand over the Canary islands and Spain will hand over German Morocco(Which includes Agadir as well) and allow the Sultan to travel back to Rabat if he wishes(Don't know why he wouldn't, he had been elected governor according to LR when he was still modding). Germany will not allow any German territory in Morocco to be handed over the the French puppet in Fes.

What happens between the Sultan of Fes and Rabat will now be Germany's problem. If Germany doesn't mind, Spain can get the paperwork together, and have the trade done as soon as possible. The physical signal that the transaction is complete will be the leaving of German forces from the Canaries (Though I thought Japan had the Canaries.) And Spanish forces leaving Tangier and Rabat. (I don't have troops in Agradir. So that's included, it's just not the major point. The point is German Morocco will be traded.)

Spain has no more issues on the treaty it wishes to address and closes it's arguments. As far as Spain is concerned it is ready to sign. It glares at those who declared it dragged it's feet, by being the first to be prepared to sign.

Also SPain would like to communicate with Germany later on about those issues not addressed in the peace treaty. (Namely the NAP and Moroccan problem.) But that will be for later.

Spain is informed that nothing will be handed over untill the entire treaty is completed, unless the Spanish are suggesting a seperate peace, otherwise nothing goes into affect untill the whole of the treaty is in place.(You want a seperate peace go to my thread, we can end this part now.)

As the war finally seems to be winding down, several of the new militia untis being raised are ordered to stand down and return to their homes. Other units are told to prepare to disband upon the conclusion of the peace treaty.

Russian officers approach the Ukrainians under a flag of truce to begin discussing armament standardization between the Ukranian military and the rest of the Russian military in order to facilitate a smoother transistion of supply.


Rosen urges the Rumanian delegate to accept the terms offered and again puts forth the question of the Middle East.

Rosen endorses the Albanian idea of a truly indpendent Macedonia (not a puppet) and then drops the Balkan issue, saying "We should leave the Balkans up to the Balkan nations. We do not need to concern ourselves with them any longer. I think we should now move on to the final issues in front of us: the Alsac-Lorraine and the Mid-East. Russia, France and Japan must work out the Far East, as we still believe that the Japanese must be punished somehow for their breaching of international law.".

Russia has managed to break a handfull of laws itself these past two years, namely the unlawfull sinking of unarmed civilian mercheant shipping without warning and the massacring of both POW's(Finland) and civilians(Riga).

Germany also points out that Japan NEVER had an NAP with Russia, and while it had one with France it did not enter a state of war with France untill AFTER France had jumped into the war against Germany on Russia's side.

Russia has managed to break a handfull of laws itself these past two years, namely the unlawfull sinking of unarmed civilian mercheant shipping without warning and the massacring of both POW's(Finland) and civilians(Riga).

Germany also points out that Japan NEVER had an NAP with Russia, and while it had one with France it did not enter a state of war with France untill AFTER France had jumped into the war against Germany on Russia's side.

Rosen points out that the fifty or so officers killed were executed for treason and desertion (as many of them had been officers in the pre-war Russian army), a charge which was amply proved in a military tribunal and there was no such massacre as there was of the Armenians or even what the Austro-Hungarians did to the Serbs.

Rosen looks confused when the German delegate mentions Riga, pointing out that Riga was behind the lines for almost a year and a half of fighting and that Russian troops never came near the city.

In addition, Germany broke a law as welll namely that of blockading food and other neccessary civilian supplies.


Japan was not obliged to come to the aid of Germany and declare war on France. Even if it was, the Germans were the oens who started the war in the first place.

Regardless of all that, he asks that this petty squabbling finally cease so that a final version of the peace treaty can be signed and all soldiers may return home.

SPain closes it's arguments, and spends time with a handful of the German delegates for anything beyond the treaty. (Basically I will sign it unless something majorly contradictory with what Germany and SPain talked about comes about. Ergo I am done in this thread for all intents and purposes.)

Greece yet again states that it will not surrender Thessaloniki, and urges the neutral nations to realise that any attempt to give Bulgaria that city would only further ethnic tensions in the area. However, Greece is willing to cede certain land (the forest hex north of Salonika) to the new nation of Macedonia, and requests that Bulgaria cede it's most south western hex to the new nation as well. Furthermore, Greece will pay Macedonia half a point for two years, and pay Bulgaria the same. However, the prices are negotiatable if Bulgaria drops it's ridiculous claims to Salonika and other Greek territories.

The Albanian delegate is told quite bluntly, that he is stupid. Korkyra, which is better known as Corfu, was the only place in Greece never to fall under Ottoman occupation, and is thoroughly Greek. A former British territory, in 1864 it was, with the other Ionian Islands, ceded to the Kingdom of Greece, in accordance with the fervent wishes of the Corfiotes.

Rosen urges the Rumanian delegate to accept the terms offered and again puts forth the question of the Middle East.

As for the Middle East Germany is proposing that several new nations be created out of the Ottoman Empire, saying that the Holy Land is not just some backwater meant to be carved up by European powers for their own benefit, but is instead the Cradle of Civilization and should be respected as such.

Proposals:
-The Ottoman Empire is to be dismantled into just Turkey(Comprising of what it holds in Thrace and modern Turkey, exception is SE border is to extend just past Mosul.)
-Arabia is to be split into two nations(Hashemite and Saud Arabia)
-The Transjordan(Real Jordan and Palestine/Israel), Syria, Lebanon and Iraq(minus the Kurdish North) are to be created.
-Christian Lebanon is to become a French protectorate, although French military presence is not to excede more than a brigade, except in times of war
-Iraq is to become a British protectorate(as it falls under their sphere of influence)
-Rhodes is to be handed over to Italy
-Armenia is to be granted independence
-European and Turkish military presence is to be banned from the Holy Land(Exceptions being Lebanon and Iraq as they are protectorates, though Iraq isn't really in the Holy Land.)

As for the Middle East Germany is proposing that several new nations be created out of the Ottoman Empire, saying that the Holy Land is not just some backwater meant to be carved up by European powers for their own benefit, but is instead the Cradle of Civilization and should be respected as such.

Proposals:
-The Ottoman Empire is to be dismantled into just Turkey(Comprising of what it holds in Thrace and modern Turkey, exception is SE border is to extend just past Mosul.)
-Arabia is to be split into two nations(Hashemite and Saud Arabia)
-The Transjordan(Real Jordan and Palestine/Israel), Syria, Lebanon and Iraq(minus the Kurdish North) are to be created.
-Christian Lebanon is to become a French protectorate, although French military presence is not to excede more than a brigade, except in times of war
-Iraq is to become a British protectorate(as it falls under their sphere of influence)
-Rhodes is to be handed over to Italy
-Armenia is to be granted independence
-European and Turkish military presence is to be banned from the Holy Land(Exceptions being Lebanon and Iraq as they are protectorates, though Iraq isn't really in the Holy Land.)

All seem acceptable to Italy.

Italy wonders if Jeruesalem could be an international city?

The Greek delegation vehemently protests the placement of large populations of ethnic Greeks outside the Kingdom itself.

The Greek delegation vehemently protests the placement of large populations of ethnic Greeks outside the Kingdom itself.

Tattenbach feigns a look of confusion, "Are you talking about the large Greek populations of the Anatolian coast? Cause asking Turkey to hand over Anatolia would be outrageous."

The Greek delegate looks at the ill informed Tattenbach, telling him that ethnic Greeks are already in Anatolia, and are not being placed outside of the Kingdom. Furthermore, the Ottoman Empire commended for its treatment of ethnic Greeks in its lands.

After discussing the issue of the Middle East with its Arab allies, Britain points out that perhaps it would be better if the separate nations of Syria and Iraq be merged into one Greater Syria, under a Hashemite King, while the Hejaz be ceded to the Saudi Royal Family creating two large, independant Arab states under guidance from the British Empire, who has already assisted the Hashemite and Saudi families in peacefully forming their own political entities.

Lebanon would still remain under French Influence, and Armenia could become a Russian client. Transjordan would be a neutral nation with no specific protector.

All seem acceptable to Italy.

Italy wonders if Jeruesalem could be an international city?

The Austro-Hungarian Empire seconds the eye-talian proposal including the making of Jeruesalem and international city, with special attention given towards including persons of Christian, Muslim and Jewish backgrounds in the cities government.

Japan proposes buying the Sprately's from France, on the grounds France has already lost most of their Asian colonies, and it sems silly to waste time over a small group of islands. Japan offers 6 points for the islands. (OOC: no oil or anything, so I doubt it's worth anything or would seem important)

All seem acceptable to Italy.

Italy wonders if Jeruesalem could be an international city?

ooc
for that matter, what about Palestine in general?

Greece yet again states that it will not surrender Thessaloniki, and urges the neutral nations to realise that any attempt to give Bulgaria that city would only further ethnic tensions in the area. However, Greece is willing to cede certain land (the forest hex north of Salonika) to the new nation of Macedonia, and requests that Bulgaria cede it's most south western hex to the new nation as well. Furthermore, Greece will pay Macedonia half a point for two years, and pay Bulgaria the same. However, the prices are negotiatable if Bulgaria drops it's ridiculous claims to Salonika and other Greek territories.

The Albanian delegate is told quite bluntly, that he is stupid. Korkyra, which is better known as Corfu, was the only place in Greece never to fall under Ottoman occupation, and is thoroughly Greek. A former British territory, in 1864 it was, with the other Ionian Islands, ceded to the Kingdom of Greece, in accordance with the fervent wishes of the Corfiotes.

Albania indicates that offensive language aside, the Greeks don't actually possess ANYTHING at the moment except for Crete and some of the Aeagean islands, and not all of them (Lemnos is under Bulgarian control at the moment for example).

So a more concilliatory tone is called for from a nation who invaded Albania in the Balkan War for no good reason, planned to "Hellenize" Macedona and part of Albania, and was thoroughly defeated.

Albania indicates that instead of Korkyra going to Albania, perhaps it instead should go to Italy or Austria Hungary, and instead of gaining Rhodes, Italy should take control of Korkyra and let the Greeks have Rhodes, which is after all entirely populated by Greeks.

Albania also thinks that Salonika should go to Macedonia to give it access to the sea, as long as Macedonia doesn't try to "Macedonize" the Greeks there.

Finally, Albania thinks and proposes that Great Britian should be handed the remainder of Greece for a 20 year period to teach the Greeks democracy and the value of leaving its neighbors alone.

ooc
Intentional insult intended by the Albanians here

IC
At the end of that time, if Great Britian believes that Greece is ready for self government, it should be granted its independence

Sir Grey suggests that since the Balkans are a troublesome area in this treaty, that a separate conference regarding the Balkans and hopeful peace be held, moderated by Britain and Norway with Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria, Rumania, Albania, Italy (representing the Allies) and Austria Hungary (representing the Coalition) to discuss the future of the Balkans, as well as territorial disputes.

Germany is against the idea of a seperate conference for the Balkans, this war should be ended as a whole.

Germany also notes that the only obstacle to peace currently is the stubborness and rudeness of the Greeks, who ironically are isolated to only a tiny island.

The Greek delegate laughs at these suggestions.
"Your little country was granted great leniency by mine when we spared your country invasion to begin with. Furthermore, even during war, we upheld our commitment with you to pay our war reparations from a previous war.

"Rhodes and Corfu are both populated by Greeks, and infact, the population contains almost 100% ethnic Greeks. But the Kingdom of Greece recognises the rule of the Ottoman Empire over Rhodes, and will have no quarrel with the Ottoman Empire retaining that territory.

"Thessaloniki is Greek. The population is Greek. My Government is more than willing to let Bulgarian and Macedonian Merchant Vessels use Thessaloniki as a port, and will offer any amount of money to the Bulgarians to repay for damages done, if all countries will drop their claim to Thessaloniki, even if Bulgaria has stripped the industrial centres of Athens, causing much damage to the economy of Greece. We offer you our money, and in return, we ask that you do not take our land or our people away.

"Also, perhaps someone should teach the Albanians to leave their neighbours alone, as their entry was led only by greed for Greek territory, unlike my country, which entered the war to protect Rumania and Serbia.

"...perhaps if Bulgaria wants some land from Greece, we can offer Greek Thrace, if all claims to Thessaloniki are dropped. As a gesture of good will, the Greek Sazan Island will immediatly be ceded to Albania, which is the only territory which can be justifiably given to Albania by Greece."

Parthini;11981271']Sir Grey suggests that since the Balkans are a troublesome area in this treaty, that a separate conference regarding the Balkans and hopeful peace be held, moderated by Britain and Norway with Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria, Rumania, Albania, Italy (representing the Allies) and Austria Hungary (representing the Coalition) to discuss the future of the Balkans, as well as territorial disputes.
A Greek delegation will travel to London for this proposed conference.

The Albanian delegation is also told that Lemnos is infact under Ottoman rule, as it has never been ceded to Greece in the first place, and it was never attacked by Allied forces.

The Greek delegate laughs at these suggestions.
"Your little country was granted great leniency by mine when we spared your country invasion to begin with. Furthermore, even during war, we upheld our commitment with you to pay our war reparations from a previous war.

"Rhodes and Corfu are both populated by Greeks, and infact, the population contains almost 100% ethnic Greeks. But the Kingdom of Greece recognises the rule of the Ottoman Empire over Rhodes, and will have no quarrel with the Ottoman Empire retaining that territory.

"Thessaloniki is Greek. The population is Greek. My Government is more than willing to let Bulgarian and Macedonian Merchant Vessels use Thessaloniki as a port, and will offer any amount of money to the Bulgarians to repay for damages done, if all countries will drop their claim to Thessaloniki, even if Bulgaria has stripped the industrial centres of Athens, causing much damage to the economy of Greece. We offer you our money, and in return, we ask that you do not take our land or our people away.

"Also, perhaps someone should teach the Albanians to leave their neighbours alone, as their entry was led only by greed for Greek territory, unlike my country, which entered the war to protect Rumania and Serbia.

"...perhaps if Bulgaria wants some land from Greece, we can offer Greek Thrace, if all claims to Thessaloniki are dropped. As a gesture of good will, the Greek Sazan Island will immediatly be ceded to Albania, which is the only territory which can be justifiably given to Albania by Greece."

The Austro-Hungarian delegation is disgusted by the self-righteous behaviour of the defeated and rather insignificant (world influence-wise) Greeks. Emperor Franz Josef is also heard muttering remarks about implimenting the programs began in Serbia into Greece if Greece does not begin acting more reasonable.

(I believe those programs were not implimented because your population refused to do the Un-Christian thing and commit genocide. I believe Galveston stated that somewhere.)

The Greek delegate enquires as to what will happen to Serbia,
"Most honourable Emperor, what is to happen to the former nation of Serbia? Although our opinion matters little, we believe that the idea first proposed by your late son, the great Archduke, for a Third Kingdom, most favourable. It is a shame Franz Ferdinand is not here now to advise on such an issue."

The Albanian delegation is also told that Lemnos is infact under Ottoman rule, as it has never been ceded to Greece in the first place, and it was never attacked by Allied forces.

ooc
so it is, which gives the Turks something at least (taken historically by Greece in 1912 Balkan War). Why the Greeks didn't grab it when they had the chance during the recent war is a mystery to me, they easily could have as it wasn't defended and strategically vital.

Pretend that statement wasn't made due to error on my part.

IC
Albania accepts the offer by the Greeks for the island of Sazan. It however does keep pressing for Macedonia gaining Salonika, and if necessary, money paid to relocate the Greek inhabitants who might wish to leave.

Albania drops its proposal that the Greeks get Rhodes, better the Italians get it in their view. It also continues to press for British occupation of Greece to teach it the art of self government without invading its neighbors Finally, Albania notes that the independence of Macedonia seems to have a majority agreement.

(I believe those programs were not implimented because your population refused to do the Un-Christian thing and commit genocide. I believe Galveston stated that somewhere.)

ooc: the widespread genocide that I originally planned is not taking place, I have come to terms with that, however rationing has continued, including the most brutal type of rationing possible in game terms for the prisoners. In addition, Serbs do not receive the basic gov't care provided to the rest of the AHE and the Serbs have yet to be granted citizenship meaning their rights can be effectively ignored by the AHE gov't if need be.

IC:

Emperor Franz Josef is a little surprised but more so annoyed at the Olive Ni...Negro's comment. "While I was aware that most Greeks lacked manners, the fact that a supposed high-ranking Greek official, that is official of the few unoccupied Grecian provinces, would stop to such levels as to listen to another man's conversation is rather disgusting. Either which way, the Austro-Hungarian Empire is merely treating Serbia as what it is, a rebellious province. As to the matter of a third empire, if such a third empire is introduced, I assure you it will be built on Grecian backs. Though from what I understand Greeks are inherently lazy so such a plan may be unfeasable.”

Minister Irgens slams his fist down on the conference table, roaring in a voice loud enough to startle most attendees who have grown accustomed to the quiet Norwegian delegation.

"ENOUGH! This peace treaty will NOT be dragged down by either the Greeks or the Austro-Hungarians! Every other nation has worked far too hard to see their efforts completely and utterly derailed by the childish, grating statements coming from both the Austro-Hungarians and the Greeks! If the nations who actually occupy the Balkans cannot agree to a compromise peace, perhaps peace terms should be decided for them by the rational and constructive nations at this conference!

"If the Austro-Hungarians and Greeks cannot show civility to one another and cannot work towards a peace agreement then someone else- someone from outside the region- will need to write the agreement governing the Balkans. Either the delegates from these two nations will stop behaving like mewling infants or the rest of the conference will move on without you!"

It is a rare public display of strong emotion, something the Norwegians are generally not known for on the international stage.

Calming down somewhat, he presents the Norwegian proposal for some of the other major areas of contention in the conference. "As you will see, again, no one gains outright. Everyone will need to compromise on this peace- and I feel this Norwegian proposal is made in that spirit.

[OOC- Sorry if it's a bit messy. It was done quick.]

Edited version (now with British input!)
The Balkans
-Rumania will return to its prewar borders
-Rumania will limit it's military to no more then 150,000 man army including reserves; 2 air units, but will not allow any offensive weaponry or heavy artillery.(IE no arty units, no motorized units, no regular/heavy inf corps) and will not allow the Rumanian airforce to have more than 100 fighter aircraft(1 fighter unit) the restof the Rumanian airforce(1 unit) having to comprise of recon aircraft. No bomber aircraft of any kind are to be allowed.
-In exchange for greater military freedom as specified above, Rumania will allow the Germans to garrison Ploesti with 1 Garrison, and will sell it's oil only to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Germany, and Bulgaria at standard European market price or use it for domestic purposes unless it recieves permission from the above countries.
-Land changes (From Greece):
OE: Forest Hex to left of WiF OE thrace
Bulgaria: Rest of Greek Thrace, except Salonica (So everything that is past Salonica, including the peninsula it's on, goes to Bulgaria.) Salonica remains part of Greece.
Albania: Sazan Islands

The Middle East
-The Ottoman Empire is to be dismantled into just Turkey(Comprising of what it holds in Thrace and modern Turkey, exception is SE border is to extend past Mosul to all areas with majority Kurd populations), Rhodes, and Lemnos. Areas of Kurdish majority will be put into the Dominion of Kurdistan, an area that will have the same rights as Ukraine.
-Arabia is to be controlled by the Saud clan.
-The Transjordan(Real Jordan and Palestine/Israel), and Lebanon are to be created.
-Christian Lebanon is to become a French protectorate, although French military presence is not to excede more than a brigade, except in times of war
-Iraq (Iraq minus Kurdish areas and Syria) is to placed under the control of the Hashemites and granted its independence.
-Armenia is to be granted independence
-European and Turkish military presence is to be banned from the Holy Land(Exception being Lebanon )
-Jerusalem will be an independent city goverend by its inhabitants, with each major religion receiving an equal say in its governance.

German/French Border
-France shall take control of Alsace and Lorraine.
-There will be nothing more than defensive fortifications and minimal garrisons in the regions on the border of France and Germany (AL, Rhineland, Saarland).
-France will agree to demilitarize Alsace-Lorraine if Germany agrees to demilitarize the Rhineland and other territories adjacent to Alsace and Lorraine;

Other
All French colonies occupied by German and Japanese forces, including the various islands in the Indian Ocean and Pacific (the Spratleys), and excepting Equatorial Africa (goes to Germany), are to be returned to France.

Britain feels that the separation of Syria and Iraq would do no good, since Syria has had no experience of self Government for several hundred years, and as such, should be placed under the rule of the Hashemite King. Also, Britain feels that all of Arabia (RL Saudi Arabia) should be granted to the House of Saud, while the Hashemite Family should become king of Iraq-Syria.

Norway has no objection with that change, as it is a minor part of a minor issue within the peace conference. The assent of the Norwegian delegate to the British suggestion is expressed.

Britain thanks Norway for their approval and wonderful assistance in moderating these negotiations. Britain hopes that all nations involved can sign this peace.

Yet, Britain feels that the issue of Freedom of the Seas and the previous violations of such have not been addressed at all.

The United States, partly in the interest of drawing this conference to a close, but also due to its respect for Norwegian compromise measures in the past, throws its support behind the plan (with British additions). However, the French and the Russians should have a chance to speak on this issue.

To the British Delegation: The general issue of minor violations should not hold up the greater issue of peace.

IC: Representatives of the Comité de L'Asie Française, the heterogeneous French Colonial Lobby (fabric manufacturers in Lyon, Automobile Manufacturers, Jesuit Priests, Financiers, ect.), and Rightist/Catholic groups flood the French delegation with telegrams, petitions, and advocates denouncing the British and German proposals for the Middle East. Across France rightwing and Catholic newspapers howl that France must keep the territories in the Middle East it has conquered, particularly Greater Syria, Lebanon, and the Holy Land (Palestine).

OOC: Here is the former French Plan

The Middle East
a) The Ottoman Empire
i. The Ottoman Empire shall be decreased in size to Anatolia and European Turkey (ooc: rl Turkey minus Armenia and Kurdistan).
ii. The Ottoman Empire shall sign another Non-Aggression Treaty with the Russian Empire.
iii. Kars shall be returned to the Russian Empire as payment for the Ottoman Empire violating its non-aggression pact with Russia.
iv. Kurdistan and Armenia will become independent nations.
v. Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine (ooc: includes Transjordan) will become territories jointly administered by Italy and France, with the exact areas of control to be worked out by those nations after the end of the war.
vi. Mesopotamia (minus Kurdistan) shall become the independent states of Baghdad and Basra, and shall lie within the Russian sphere of influence in the Middle East.

[QUOTE=Amestria;11982073]OOC: Norway forgot that one of the conditions for demilitarizing AL is that the coal and resources of the Saar be shared between England and France.[QUOTE]

OOC: I assume you mean Germany and France
IC:


Prime Minister Gonnoyhoe speaks up, again forwarding his proposal for Japan to buy the islands from France? As they have no economical value, it seems foolish for France to have to spend more to defend it, especcially with the loss of their profitable colonies in Asia

Italy presses the issue in regards to Rhodes going to Italy.

In terms of the middle east, Italy is not demanding any sort of ownership of said new nations, but is very willing to ensure that they become peaceful, and prosperous nations under guidance. Once more, the issue of Jeursalem, as well as all of Palestine become available for international access with no religion suffering any kind of hostility. We would infact prefer, much like the Austrian-Hungarians, that Muslims, Christians, and Jewish but part of the council to control the city.

For the first time in the peace conference, Prince Dharadilok of the Siamese deligation speaks up. "Norway's compromise proposal is currently unacceptable to the Kingdom of Siam because it stipulates that French India will be returned to France. The Republic of East India is an independent state under Siamese guidance at this time, and as stipulated in the Treaty of Saigon will decide internally as to whether to rejoin France. The same applies to the Republic of South Madagascar."

Britain supports Transjordan becoming a neutral, international nation, its independance and neutrality protected by all surrounding powers. Britain also suggests that Transjordan becomes a Parliamentary Democracy with a President (called the Protector of Jerusalem) as head of State.

In regards to the Middle East, France makes the following response to the German proposal:

-The Ottoman Empire is to be dismantled into just Turkey(Comprising of what it holds in Thrace and modern Turkey, exception is SE border is to extend past Mosul to all areas with majority Kurd populations), Rhodes, and Lemnos. Areas of Kurdish majority will be put into the Dominion of Kurdistan, an area that will have the same rights as Ukraine.
-Arabia is to be controlled by the Saud clan.
-The Transjordan(Real Jordan and Palestine/Israel), and Lebanon are to be created.
-Christian Lebanon is to become a French protectorate, although French military presence is not to excede more than a brigade, except in times of war
-Iraq (Iraq minus Kurdish areas and Syria) is to placed under the control of the Hashemites and granted its independence.
-Armenia is to be granted independence
-European and Turkish military presence is to be banned from the Holy Land(Exception being Lebanon )
-Jerusalem will be an independent city goverend by its inhabitants, with each major religion receiving an equal say in its governance.

[items in bold are acceptable as presented]

France proposes the following instead:

-The Ottoman Empire shall be reduced to Anatolia and Ottoman Thrace (ooc: rl Turkey).
-Kurdistan and Armenia are to be created as independent states.
-Baghdad (Sunni Muslim) and Basra (Shi’ite Muslim) are to be created, with the former being a joint Franco-Russian protectorate, and Basra a Russian protectorate, as compensation for Russia losing so much land in Europe (ooc: Kurdistan, Baghdad, and Basra lying within modern Iraqi border).
-Lebanon and Palestine (including Transjordan) shall become French protectorates, with complete internal self-government by the system seen most fit by the inhabitants of said territories.
-Syria (plus Antioch) shall become a French protectorate until deemed ready for independence, upon which time Syria shall become an independent parliamentary democracy.
-French military presence in the Holy Land during peacetime shall be limited to two corps worth of troops, one fighter unit, an unspecified number of observation aircraft, and a naval base at Haifa. This is in addition to the militaries of Lebanon and Palestine.
-Jerusalem shall become an international city, with its own government and police force. A council consisting of representatives from the major religious populations shall be set up to advise the government, but will have no legislative or executive power.
-Rhodes is ceded to Italy.

In addition, France feels that Armenia should gain more land if possible, to help provide for greater security and to gain some compensation for the Turkish genocide against them.

The Japanese are politely but firmly told that France will not sell the Spratley Islands at this time. France also wishes to know whether Japan will pay reparations for the French shipping lost when Japan violated its non-aggression pact with France.

As an aside, the French delegation states that France would not object to the Balkan issues being settled at a separate conference, as it is so tiresome and complicated an issue.

Rosen endorses the French terms wholeheartedly. He points out that the Ottoman Empire started a war of aggression, unprovoked, against the Russian Empire and broke a standing Non-Aggression Pact. And they didn't even have the excuse of coming to the defense of Germany.

Furthermore, the Armenians and Kurds should not be left under Ottoman Rule as both are already well on their way to independence.


Russia also agrees that the Balkans should be resolved seperately, as they seem to be a major stumbling block to the final peace treaty.

Crown Prince Ferdinand reluctantly gives his approval of the terms offered by the Coalition.

(Alright leaving for vacation.)

Spain simply watches the precedings, not really commenting as the Middle East, the Balkans, and Asia are no longer concerns of the Spanish government. Daily telegrams are sent back to Spain of the constant bickering between Austria Hungary and Greece, and that in truth Germany and SPain have tentativly already made peace. Spain itself has taken the low point out of the precedings, not physically, but in spirit at the moment. It prepares itself for a de facto peace with Germany, Austria Hungary, Japan, and the Ottoman Empire. Mostly due to the people's requests to have troops returned back home.

Spain sends notes to all four countries that if they are in agreement on the Spanish issues (Morocco and the Canaries.) Then Spain can simply declare a de facto state of peace, and Spanish troops don't have to spend time in France any longer. De Jure peace can be hammered out despite all this bickering. As Spain hasn't really any territorial issues with Japan, Austria Hungary, or the Ottoman Empire. Germany and Spain have already agreed to their territorial trade, so in truth this is all a waiting game for Spain.

A final clause is asked to be imposed on Rumania lest there is a repeat of Greek Actions (when they stationed French and Italian Troops):

"No Forigen Troops beyond the size of a brigade may be stationed in Rumania without the mutual consent of its neighbors"

The Final proposal regarding Greece:

"-The Province of Salonika (minus the city) shall be ceded to Bulgaria.
-The Province of Korkyra and the Sazan Islands shall be ceded to Albania.
-Under the supervision of council consisting of Bulgaria, Albania and The Dual Monarchy, the autonomous region of Macedonia shall be created consisting of Greek Macedonia, Macedonia (Minus Ethnic Albanian Territories indicated earlier) and the City of Salonika/Thessalonika.
-Bulgaria shall retain the right to establish, Garrison and maintain both a Naval base and a Fortress in the premises of the City of Salonika near the Greek Border.
-Greece shall 1 Unit Shipping Each to Bulgaria, Albania, Macedonia and The Dual Monarchy.
-Conscription is Prohibited in Greece.
-No Forigen Troops beyond the size of a brigade may be stationed in Greece without the mutual consent of its neighbors."

The Greek delegate is warned that they are in no position to decline. If it continues to do so, then this war may see one last tactical operation before its conclusion. This attitude reeks as the same during the Oslo Conference and we will not stand it for much longer.

IC:

Emperor Franz Josef is a little surprised but more so annoyed at the Olive Ni...Negro's comment. "While I was aware that most Greeks lacked manners, the fact that a supposed high-ranking Greek official, that is official of the few unoccupied Grecian provinces, would stop to such levels as to listen to another man's conversation is rather disgusting. Either which way, the Austro-Hungarian Empire is merely treating Serbia as what it is, a rebellious province. As to the matter of a third empire, if such a third empire is introduced, I assure you it will be built on Grecian backs. Though from what I understand Greeks are inherently lazy so such a plan may be unfeasable.”

OOC - First of all, I never listened into anyone else's conversation.
Secondly its a third Kingdom rather than a third Empire.
And lastly, my comment was a polite one, I don't know what your first language is, but my comment was never intended to be anything other than polite, or is this just further evidence that the Emperor has developed Parkinson's?

In a statement directed at the neutral observers, the Greek delegate states,
"Bulgarian troops have plundered our lands, destroyed our industry, and now they ask us to hand over Greek land, and Greek people to them. Bulgaria cannot be trusted with the treatment of ethnic Greeks. Yet again, I tell you, take our money, but not our land or our people.

"However, in a final bid for peace, I offer new terms:"


Forested hex north of Salonika to Macedonia
All other hexes east of Salonika, with the exception of the Autonomous Monastic State of the Holy Mountain
Sazan Island to Albania
The Dodecanese to remain part of the Ottoman Empire
One-off payments to Coalition nations as required
No foreign troops larger than a brigade to be stationed on Greece, with the exception of British and Scandinavian troops
Standing army to be no greater than 100,000

In regards to the Middle East, France makes the following response to the German proposal:
France proposes the following instead:

-The Ottoman Empire shall be reduced to Anatolia and Ottoman Thrace (ooc: rl Turkey).
-Kurdistan and Armenia are to be created as independent states.
-Baghdad (Sunni Muslim) and Basra (Shi’ite Muslim) are to be created, with the former being a joint Franco-Russian protectorate, and Basra a Russian protectorate, as compensation for Russia losing so much land in Europe (ooc: Kurdistan, Baghdad, and Basra lying within modern Iraqi border).
-Lebanon and Palestine (including Transjordan) shall become French protectorates, with complete internal self-government by the system seen most fit by the inhabitants of said territories.
-Syria (plus Antioch) shall become a French protectorate until deemed ready for independence, upon which time Syria shall become an independent parliamentary democracy.
-French military presence in the Holy Land during peacetime shall be limited to two corps worth of troops, one fighter unit, an unspecified number of observation aircraft, and a naval base at Haifa. This is in addition to the militaries of Lebanon and Palestine.
-Jerusalem shall become an international city, with its own government and police force. A council consisting of representatives from the major religious populations shall be set up to advise the government, but will have no legislative or executive power.
-Rhodes is ceded to Italy.



Tattenbach violently objects to this point, the Middle East will not become a French colony. This is not to become another Algeria. Germany will accept Transjordan becoming a French protectorate as well as Lebanon and a naval base at Haifa but we will not accept any Russian or French influence in the nations of Iraq, Arabia and Syria.
(OOC: I'd assume the Brits would be extremely pissed here, a huge part of their world strategy these past decades has been keeping the Russian empire from extending southwards, hence the Afghan wars, alliance with Japan exc.)

Tattenbach also protests the stripping of Antioch from Turkey, which is Turkish(And part of rl Turkey) and the northern parts of Iraq(up to Mosul). Their empire has already been stripped, now your stripping away their country? Let Turkeys borders include Antioch and Mosul, take away the Kars if you must, but they've already lost an empire, they don't deserve any more punishment for whatever crimes they've commited.

It is also pointed out that Italy, France's biggest ally, has already accepted the previous list of proposals.

In a statement directed at the neutral observers, the Greek delegate states,
"Bulgarian troops have plundered our lands, destroyed our industry, and now they ask us to hand over Greek land, and Greek people to them. Bulgaria cannot be trusted with the treatment of ethnic Greeks. Yet again, I tell you, take our money, but not our land or our people.

"However, in a final bid for peace, I offer new terms:"


Forested hex north of Salonika to Macedonia
All other hexes east of Salonika, with the exception of the Autonomous Monastic State of the Holy Mountain
Sazan Island to Albania
The Dodecanese to remain part of the Ottoman Empire
One-off payments to Coalition nations as required
No foreign troops larger than a brigade to be stationed on Greece, with the exception of British and Scandinavian troops
Standing army to be no greater than 100,000


The Greeks are reminded they are in no position to dicctate terms, noting the entire Greek pennisula and most of the Aegean islands are currently under occupation.

The Greek delegate asks Tattenbach whether he actually wants a truly lasting peace?

The Greek delegate is warned that they are in no position to decline. If it continues to do so, then this war may see one last tactical operation before its conclusion. This attitude reeks as the same during the Oslo Conference and we will not stand it for much longer.

This earns a sharp cough from Beveridge.

"On, I do hope it would not come to that," he murmers...

"The United States does not have an immediate vested interest in the composition of the Middle East and is rather pleased at this point that the issues of Ukraine and Alcase-Lorraine have been worked out. Washington will move to check the excesses of its fellow moderators (Beveridge refuses to look at the British delegation as he moves on) but for the purposes of this discussion our role will be one of moderation."

OOC: Translation would be figure this stuff out yourself gents--if Transjordan goes to France, then Antioch can go to Turkey. If the troop limit will be somewhere between 2 corps and 1 brigade, set it at 1 corps. That way we can get rid of all this extra stuff and figure out was is really unnegotiable for both sides.

The Greek delegate notes that Bulgaria by itself does not possess the means to threaten Greece any further.

What does the US think of the Greek proposal?

The Greek delegate notes that Bulgaria by itself does not possess the means to threaten Greece any further.

What does the US think of the Greek proposal?

Polish leader Pilduski points out a few things to the Greeks. "Consider this, your country is still under occupation, you lack the means to liberate it, and if you don't start talking sense and accept the terms, then that means you intend to remain at war with Bulgaria and other Coalition countries, and that means sir, and understand me plainly, that under the rules of war your country will remain under occupation and will be considered a conquered province."

public opinion
British Press and British establishment: Willing to accept France getting Palestine, Syria and Lebanon, but in favor of Arab Kingdoms in Jordan, Arabia, and southern Iraq. Very opposed to Russia gaining Basra and a warm water port in the Persian Gulf, as threatens British oil interests in Persia. Willing to accept Kurdish state in northern Iraq, limited parts of Turkey, also willing to accept Russia getting rest of Armenia and allowing Russia to station troops in both areas. Also in favor a Sunni Kingdom of Baghdad, under Russian sponsership. Against France getting Antioch, as its been Turkish for thousands of years.

Opinion on Greece is that it has clearly lost touch with reality and should accept any terms offered that restores its independence. The Albanian suggestion gets discussed but most Britons of influence figure getting into the Balkans isn't worth the trouble.

High marks to France and Germany for working out a deal regarding their borders.

American opinion is less complex in the press, but similar in the American establishment. At this point Americans figure that squabbling over territories and borders isn't worth the risk of further war and any nation that holds up the peace process, especially when making unrealistic demands, is looked at poorly.

A lot of American Christians are all for the French (meaning Christians) controlling the Holy Land. The American Jewish community has mixed feelings on the matter.

Germany will accept French protectorates in Palestine, Lebanon and Syria should the Turkish border be fixed to include Antioch and Mosul. The Kurds that would live in Turkey would be granted limited autonomy under this plan. We would also support an Arab kingdom in Jordan, a Hashmeite kingdom in Iraq and a Saudi Kingdom in Arabia.

(Discussed with America)
In return for Dakar and allowing French protectorates in the ME Germany would like to keep the French islands under occupation in the Indian Ocean.

In response to the Polish,
[i]"Were it not for your country, this war might have never happened. Greece has accepted peace, but is smoothing out the details. We are, however, begging Bulgaria to accept money, rather than land, as the land he wants is Greek land, with Greek people."

OOC - Actually, the British press would be campaigning for the Greece, against the Germans.

Tattenbach violently objects to this point, the Middle East will not become a French colony. This is not to become another Algeria. Germany will accept Transjordan becoming a French protectorate as well as Lebanon and a naval base at Haifa but we will not accept any Russian or French influence in the nations of Iraq, Arabia and Syria.

Tattenbach also protests the stripping of Antioch from Turkey, which is Turkish(And part of rl Turkey) and the northern parts of Iraq(up to Mosul). Their empire has already been stripped, now your stripping away their country? Let Turkeys borders include Antioch and Mosul, take away the Kars if you must, but they've already lost an empire, they don't deserve any more punishment for whatever crimes they've commited.

France is willing to return Antioch to Turkey, but has serious qualms about allowing Mosul, which has a predominantley Kurdish population, to be stripped from Kurdistan and returned to Turkey.

Clemenceau points out to Tattenbach that under the French terms, Arabia was to become an independent state left to its own affairs (just like in the German terms), and that no state of 'Iraq' was proposed by the French; rather, two separate nations (Baghdad for the Sunnis and Basra for the Shi'ites) were to be created. France also notes that the British press has expressed support for the creation of a separate Sunni state in Baghdad.

Privately, the British are told that the French are willing to revise their terms to remove France as one of the protectors of Baghdad, if the British would prefer solely Russian influence over the proposed state.

Before a response is made to the German offer concerning Dakar and the Indian Ocean islands, France asks for a couple of clarifications:
-By "Dakar," does Germany mean the city of Dakar, or all of French West Africa?
-Does Germany include Madagascar in "French islands in the Indian Ocean," or simply small islands such as Reunion and the Comoros?

All French West Africa and Dakar to France. Only the IO islands like Reunion and the Comoros, not Madagascar

OOC: Just to refresh everyone's memory (particularly the moderating countries)," here is the "Assault on an Empire" Campaign, "The Near and Mideast, July / August 1912."

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11908207&postcount=91

France and Russia within a two month period were able to conquer and assume total control of the Middle East. French and Russian troops now occupy almost all the territory being discussed. In the Middle East the Ottoman Empire was completely defeated...all something to keep in mind.

Russian cavalry deals with the outnumbered garrison at Mosul (4 Russian cavalry corps versus 1 Turkish militia cavalry corps) and routes it, and then drives into Mosul, cheered on by the Kurdish inhabitants who form a militia corps to support the Russian liberation of their homes.

The Kurds in Mosul actively aided the Allied liberation of Kurdistan. One can clearly see the Kurds in Mosul (and for that matter the Kurdish parts of Turkey, Iraq, Syria, and Persia) do not see themselves as Turks (or Arab, Syrian, or Persian), they in fact cheered the Russian cavalry that entered the city and contributed 100,000 militia to the Allied cause (and would have contributed more had it been needed).

It is also fairly impossible for there to be a Kurdistan without Mosul, seeing as how Mosul is at the very center of the Kurdish populated areas in the Middle East (there are Kurds North of Mosul, west of Mosul, South of Mosul, and East of Mosul). Which is why in Mosul is in RL the center of Kurdish nationalism in the Middle East, the capital of Iraqi Kurdistan, and a center for Kurdish liberation movements (and the capital of any proposed Kurdish state).

As a Moderator

IC: The Kurdish representatives (accompanying both the French and Russian delegations), insist that Mosul is indeed a “Kurdish City” and that the “Kurds are not Turks,” and loudly protest all German characterizations to the contrary. They cite population statistics recently collected from Mosul and the surrounding countryside to prove their point.

It is pointed out that 100,000 Kurds took up arms to fight for their freedom against “Turkish misrule” and (perhaps more importantly) are still under arms, ready to protect that newly acquired freedom. The Kurdish delegation argues in its closing statement that if the peoples of Finland, Poland, the Baltic’s, Macedonia, and Arabia are entitled to their own nations then so are the Kurds.

(ooc: someone has to RP the Kurdish leaders, and I think we can all agree that is how their delegation would react.)

Sir Grey steps up, deliberating the situation in the Middle East, and finally speaks.

"The Arab people do not want a fractured, divided entity. No, they wish to unite under one sovreign, one idea, one God (regardless of his misidentity) with the freedom to dictate their own terms, something they have been denied for several centuries now."

"However, the Allies wish to divide these people and put them under the yoke, not of the Turk, but of the Crusader and the Mongol! This is injustice at its worst and Britain will not take part in it!"

He sits down, in a huff, and Admiral Fisher steps up.

"What he forgot is that Britain is also unwilling to allow Russia access to a warm-water port in the Persian Gulf, and that any part of the treaty granting them that will be totally and completely opposed by the entire British nation!"

Rosen gives the British delegate an icy stare before returning to the business at hand, "Gentlemen, I believe the British should recuse them selves as moderators on this issue as they clearly have their own interests in mind."

"However, Russia is willing to concede Basra as a seperate state and not a Russian protectrate, provided of course that it is not a British puppet either and that Russian shipping is allowed to use the port."

"We are not prepared to drop Baghdad as a Russian protectrate and neither are we willing to cede Mosul back to the Turks. As the Kurdish delegate pointed out, Mosul is a center for the Kurds. Mosul should be the new capital of Kurdistan, not a part of Turkey as the Kurds are not Turkish."

"Furthermore, I would ask the British delegate to refrain from insults. I would like to remind him that the Russians fought the Tartars on multiple occasions, including our first ruler, Ivan."

Insulted Jackie Fisher stands. As he opens his mouth, Prince Battenberg swiftly pulls him down before he says anything rash. Sir Grey takes his place.

"Dear Baron! No doubt all sides here, even the Norweigans have their own interests. Surely they are not holding back simply to let their interests be thrown aside. It also suffices to say that I am merely speaking for my Arab friends who have been slighted by this treaty. However, simply for the sake of peace, Britain is willing to agree to simply a Saudi State in Arabia and an independant southern Mesopotamia."