NationStates Jolt Archive

[QUOTE=New Dornalia;11747872]1910

Nationalist China (Republic of China)
Economic and military data as of Jan, 1 1910
KMT China (Republic of China)
Resource points
Changsha 5, Kwieyang 6, Chengtu 6, Chungking 12, Kweiyang 6
Special Resources:
3 Coal
Production Centers:
1 at Changsha
population under KMT control 170 million
food production 208

Market Economy Peacetime. Normal income, growth 3%

Total Income: 33 (rounded, factoring in Aid, growth post mil/social spending)

other major cities:
Nanking, Hangchow, Foochow, Hangchow, Nanning,

KMT Army
Guangdong Army
80,000 men
4 garrison units
Guangxi Army
45,000 men
1 garrison unit, 1 light infantry division
Hunan Army
80,000 men
1 light infantry division, 2 garrison units, 1 cavalry division
Jiangxi Army
60,000 men
3 garrison units
Zhejiang Army
60,000 men
3 garrison units
Fujian Army
40,000 men
2 garrison units
Sichuan Army
3 garrison units
1 cavalry division
1 point, upgrade 3 garrison units, 1 cavalry division to 6 garrison units, 1 cavalry division, 5 light infantry divisions (all tech level 2) for 16 pts
Guazhou Army
3 garrison units .75, upgrade to 5 garrison units (4 points)

New Model Army

2 Regular Infantry corps

Republican Navy-

3 PCs-.3 matenance (RCS Sun Yat Sen, Tien Long, Shen Long)

Matenance=7.05 rounded

Points lost to various acts of palm-greasing and "special favors" :)-2.25 points

Growth=.98 (plus last year's makes a production center)

Aid Column-

Missionary aid to KMT- 1pt

Overseas Chinese aid to KMT- 1pt

Aid from USA (Secret)-5 pts

Aid from USA (Open)- 5pts

Aid from UK-5pts

Social Spending=Level 1-17 pts

Builds-

10 points to make an Intelligence Agency
1 point for 1 light Cruiser
2 points for a Special Development Project in Jiangsu
16 pts for four Infantry Corps
2 points to Transportation improvements (not enough, but I figure I need to put them to some use.)
2 points to new Light Cruisers

US Build for 1910 (I wont be all that avaliable this weekend, so I'm getting it out of the way early).

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11746865&postcount=188

No aid for Albania like we discussed...?

One year closer to the disappearence of the rainforest (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11748552&postcount=25)

Russian Build, 1910 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11608284&postcount=3)

Danish 1910 Build (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11710195&postcount=1)... Exactly the same as 1909 but projects have moved on

Portuguese 1910 build (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11613955&postcount=3)

Bazalonia, the site we use is this one (I think):

http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/populhome.html

It's a Dutch academic site and is generally very accurate, being taken from relevent cenuses and some estimating.

French build (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11699766&postcount=2) for 1910.

Bazalonia, the site we use is this one (I think):

http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/populhome.html

It's a Dutch academic site and is generally very accurate, being taken from relevent cenuses and some estimating.
Updated

Rumanian Build 1910 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11669231&postcount=6)

This site: http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Europe/albaniag.htm says my population growth is 1.5%, may I use that?

This site: http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Europe/albaniag.htm says my population growth is 1.5%, may I use that?

Go right down to the bottom of the page and you will see a link that says

"To the page containing the population growth statistics of the country"

It says that your population stays ~800 thousand until the 1930's

Go right down to the bottom of the page and you will see a link that says

"To the page containing the population growth statistics of the country"

It says that your population stays ~800 thousand until the 1930's

Yes, but on this game my population is 2.3 million at the moment. It says my groeth is 1.5% and I am wondering if I can use that.

Albanian population includes Kosovo and Macedonia, the information of which was obtained from the provincial figures for Yuguslavia. So to make life easier, 1.5% is fine

Albanian population includes Kosovo and Macedonia, the information of which was obtained from the provincial figures for Yuguslavia. So to make life easier, 1.5% is fine

Thank you! :)

1910:
Population 4 million
Tech level 3

Income:
Production centers 0,
Resources 6 (Sofia 6)
Coal 1
Food production 4
From Rumania: 2 points (Year 2 out of 3)
From Greece: 1 point (Year 1 out of 3)

Total: 10

Expenses:

Maintenance: 1.3

Military:
2 Reserve Infantry Corps 0.25
1 Regular Cavalry divisions 0.25
8 Mountain Divisions 0.8

1 Garison Unit : 2 points
Social Services level II: 0.8 points
Shipping Construction: 3.7 points
Production Centre: 2.2 points (14/24)

No aid for Albania like we discussed...?

OOC: gak, you are right. I will post a correction later this evening--wont be back on a computer until then.

Kingdom of Norway's 1910 Budget
Population: 2.3 million
Tech level: 3

Income: 9.5
Production centers: 0
Resources: 6 (Stavanger 6)
Food production: 7
Commerce: 2 shipping unit
Cruise Ship Line: .5


Expenditures
Military maintenance: 2.65
Level 2 social spending: .5
Production Center construction (year 5 of 5): 4
Purchase of 4 CP from Denmark (0 of 3 points): .75
Repayment of Loan from USA (0 of 11.5 Points): 0
Shipping Unit construction (Year 1 of 2): 1.5

Kingdom of Norway's 1910 Budget
Population: 2.3 million
Tech level: 3

Income: 9.5
Production centers: 0
Resources: 6 (Stavanger 6)
Food production: 7
Commerce: 2 shipping unit
Cruise Ship Line: .5


Command Economy: 2% Growth per year
(1910: .83)


You don't get growth until you get a production centre.

US build slightly updated:

5 points to Republic of China (in addition to secret aid)
4 points to Albania
3 points to Greece (only 1 of which must be repaid)

All points besides the one denoted for Greece are gifts not loans.

Builds for 1910:

Tech Level: 2
Production Centers: 0
Resources: 3
Food Production: 6
Foreign Aid: 4 (from the US), 1 (from Greece)

Total Income: 8

Domestic Expenditures:

Level I Safety Net: .25 points
Special Infastructure Improvements: .50 points (Year 2 out of 3)
Construction of Production Center: 5.65 points
Total: 5.75 points

Maintenence Costs:

Army of Albania: .60 point
Fort Skanderbeg (Fortress in Skutari): 1 point
Total: 1.6 points

Military Expenditures:

None

Foreign Expenditures:

None

Total Expenditures: 8 points
Reserve: 0

You don't get growth until you get a production centre.

Awww.... :(

Awww.... :(

And you need 24 points to get a PC... >.< That why I'm asking around for aid.

And Whittlesfield, you owe me a point starting in '10 and running through '15 for the war.

And you need 24 points to get a PC... >.< That why I'm asking around for aid.

Pfffft. Industrious Norwegians make a production center by end of year! Know all about spending!

before doing your 1910 builds

major rule change, brought on as Middle Snu pointed out a major flaw (thanks by the way)

Growth is based on income remaining AFTER paying your military and social service maintenance budgets for the year.

So for example, if a country has 100 points, and spends 70 to maintain its huge army and social services, then only 30 points are used to determined growth

which means for example, at cut spending, 5% growth creates 1.5 production centers for the next year (or 3 in 2 years)

so everyone will know why the change occured

from the chatzy board
am from x.x.x.16 left this message 65 minutes ago:
Don't be rediculous. I'm worried about Big Bad China in the North.

And it's unfair, even though everyone has the same rules, for three reasons:
1. Countries like Russia have increased their industry far faster than they should have been able to, even though overall economies have stayed the same. This has allowed Russia to outstrip Japan industry-wise, even though this couldn't have occurred in real life.
2. Countries without production centers (like Siam, China, all the colonies) don't get growth. And with the massive boost in growth, they miss out more than is really fair. (and have more to make up for more later.)

And finally, it's a huge pity for another reason:
With this kind of growth, you can kiss third-world poverty goodbye. It was bad enough in the last game, but poverty is one of the defining factors of the 20th century and it simply won't exist in this timeline (thanks to the ability of countries to "export" their growth). There will be no need for industrialization of Africa. The USA can simply pick one african country a turn, export all growth to it, and BOOM! it's industrialized.

Amestria from x.x.x.77 left the chat 61 minutes ago

galveston bay from x.x.x.48 left this message 60 minutes ago:
nations aren't allowed to export their growth, they can invest (by spending points to create industrial centers in non industrial countries) but cannot simply say I am going to use my extra industrial centers from gorwth to pop up in Bangalore for example

and growth for nations does reach productivity maximums fairly quickly too

galveston bay from x.x.x.48 left this message 58 minutes ago:
incidently, Russia had 10% growth nearly every year 1910 -1960, with the exceptions of the Russian Civil War years and the World War II years (because of immense damage suffered),

while the US historically doubled its economy twice between 1900 - 1930, and still had 1% growth through most of the Great Depression oddly enough (its just that a lot of its industry, about 40%, was idle during that period, so the growth went into restoring lost jobs more then expanding the base)

galveston bay from x.x.x.48 left this message 57 minutes ago:
still working on the poverty thing, but remember last game Africa and Latin America were industrialized by planned player action in reaction to the Soviet Unions dominance of Eurasia

galveston bay from x.x.x.48 left this message 54 minutes ago:
however, I will look at the situation tomorrow

Siam from x.x.x.16 left this message 46 minutes ago:
Exporting growth (from the Economic Thread):

"If a country has reached its economic productivity maximum and still has growth, those production centers created represent excess capital available to the private sector and will appear in a country of the players choosing (basically your banking industry is loaning people money). If the player doesn’t choose a country, then the referee will choose one."

I'm aware that Africa and such were industrialized through player action last game, so I don't mind much that Africa wasn't poor. But this will make all countries in the world rich by default.



galveston bay: I am thinking that the easiest soluation would be to allow only growth based on income remaining AFTER military and social service maintenance is spent

galveston bay: which will act to penalize nations with large militaries, as happened (and continues to happen) historically

galveston bay: building new units wouldn't be penalized, as that actually creates high paying jobs

galveston bay: that rule change in effect for 1910 as a matter of fact

Siam from x.x.x.16 left this message 25 minutes ago:
Interesting change... so the optimal strategy is to have a small army until just a year or two before the war, then go wild with build-up. Not unlike real life, actually.


Amestria: social services should not be subtracted as they are so vital to the econonomy

Amestria: at least everything below 4

Amestria: money spent on schools and clincs goes back into the economy through a number of ways, it does not leave it

Amestria: also, a certain portion of defense spending/maintance does help the economy

Amestria: but a certain porition also leaves it forever

Amestria: wages help the economy, araments help select industries...but other sectors get depriived of needed resources

Amestria: really complex, really complex

Amestria: economics has been E20s stumbling bloc, no sooner has the system been changed then its in need of another change

Amestria: perhaps after a certain amount the military maintance does not contribute to growth

Amestria: and social 3 or 4 may subtract (but social 1 and 2 are far to basic to be a drain)

Amestria: in fact I would argue 3, which implys government grants to universities, would help growth (science)



galveston bay from x.x.x.48 left this message 7 minutes ago:
speaking as someone who has made a career in civil service, I guarantee you that social service spending doesn't add directly to growth

however, in the game, certain levels of social service spending are needed for tech advancement, so that is the reward for it, along with a certain amount of social stability

so its a trade off

and yes Middle Snu, the optiminal economic strategy is to keep a small military in peacetime and only build up for war

although there are risks to that as well

galveston bay from x.x.x.48 left this message 5 minutes ago:
social service spending is inherently wasteful and inefficient, but does bring real beneifts, but growth isn't one of them. However, without them, you cannot increase your tech level.

Its a balance, but should play adequately

galveston bay from x.x.x.48 left this message 78 seconds ago:
incidently, most of the maintenance for military is for pay, training, garrison expenses, spare parts, ammunition replacement, etc

while this does create a certain amount of jobs, it doesn't really fuel growth as its not capital investment so much as ongoing paying of bills.

to use another example, you gain capital and personal economic growth by buying a house, but maintaining it only keeps it in condition to sell. It doesn't increase its value on bit. Not paying maintenance results in a negative value to the house, while the positive value of the house is increased by general rise in the price of homes in the area, housing shortages, better homes being build down the street (in other words, market forces) plus adding things like swimming pools, rooms, etc (capital investment)

Once that capital investment is made, it increases your home maintenance costs so that you will get the increased value when you sell.

So we all need to do our 1910 changed to this new rule. We don't ahve to go back to all our builds do we? That's my only question.

1910

Nationalist China (Republic of China)
Economic and military data as of Jan, 1 1910
KMT China (Republic of China)
Resource points
Changsha 5, Kwieyang 6, Chengtu 6, Chungking 12, Kweiyang 6
Special Resources:
3 Coal
Production Centers:
1 at Changsha
population under KMT control 170 million
food production 208

Market Economy Peacetime. Normal income, growth 3%

Total Income: 31 (rounded, factoring in Aid, growth post mil/social spending)

other major cities:
Nanking, Hangchow, Foochow, Hangchow, Nanning,

KMT Army
Guangdong Army
80,000 men
4 garrison units
Guangxi Army
45,000 men
1 garrison unit, 1 light infantry division
Hunan Army
80,000 men
1 light infantry division, 2 garrison units, 1 cavalry division
Jiangxi Army
60,000 men
3 garrison units
Zhejiang Army
60,000 men
3 garrison units
Fujian Army
40,000 men
2 garrison units
Sichuan Army
3 garrison units
1 cavalry division
1 point, upgrade 3 garrison units, 1 cavalry division to 6 garrison units, 1 cavalry division, 5 light infantry divisions (all tech level 2) for 16 pts
Guazhou Army
3 garrison units .75, upgrade to 5 garrison units (4 points)

New Model Army

4 Regular Infantry corps
3 Light infantry units (1 upgraded from a Garrison at Guangdong)

Republican Navy-

3 PCs-.3 matenance (RCS Sun Yat Sen, Tien Long, Shen Long)

Matenance=8.35 rounded

Points lost to various acts of palm-greasing and "special favors" :)-2.25 points

Growth=.94 (plus last year's makes a production center)

Aid Column-

Missionary aid to KMT- 1pt

Overseas Chinese aid to KMT- 1pt

Aid from USA (Secret)-5 pts

Aid from USA (Open)- 5pts

Aid from UK-5pts

Social Spending=Level 1-17 pts

Builds-

10 points to make an Intelligence Agency
1 point for sea mines
2 points for a Special Development Project in Jiangsu
16 pts for four Infantry Corps
1 points to Light Cruisers

Builds mutiliated, smashed, and refined into this new one. Factors in New Rules, and New Provinces under my control, plus aid.

1910:
Population 4 million
Tech level 3

Income:
Production centers 0,
Resources 6 (Sofia 6)
Coal 1
Food production 4
From Rumania: 2 points (Year 2 out of 3)
From Greece: 1 point (Year 1 out of 3)

Total: 10

Expenses:

Maintenance: 1.3



1 Garison Unit : 2 points
Social Services level II: 0.8 points
Shipping Construction: 3.7 points
Production Centre: 2.2 points (17.7/24)

Edited builds, mostly due to German promise of aid in 1911 rather than new rules though.

US Build for 1910 updated. The only change is less growth for 1911.

On another note, ND, if you are building an intel agency, the initial cost should be 10 points while the upkeep annually after that is 5.

Which reminds me. Is the upkeep for intel agencies and any costs for special intel missions also going to be subtracted from growth? Because that would knock me down a fraction of a production center next year as well.

Economy 1910
Income - 45pts (81% factory growth) 0.17 left over
Production Centers 7 x 4 = 28pts (One from Growth)
Commerce = 10pts
Food Production = 3 resource points
Resources = 4
Growth = 2%

Expenses
Social Services: Level II = 6pts
Military Upkeep: 12pts

Government Expendatures (15)
12 Point to Repair Resource
2 Fortress Infantry Corp = 8pts
2 Merchant Marine = 6pts
1 Merchant Marine 1/2 = 1.5

builds also changed drastically due to the war and new rules

Brazil builds fixed for growth rule change.

Brazil builds fixed for growth rule change.

French builds likewise.

Spending 1910
Available: 17.5(4 production, 11 resources, 1 excess food, 1 commerce, .5 cruise liner)
Military Maintinence- 3.7
Level III Social Spending- 1.02
3 Tech 5 Naval Units from Germany- 4(12 0f 12)
Loan Repayment to Canada- 4(24 of 24)
Valparaiso Naval Yard Construction- 4.18(5.86 of 12)
Corruption Penalty- .6
Spent: 17.5
Surplus: 0
Growth: 3%
Accumulated Growth: .4

Builds mutiliated, smashed, and refined into this new one. Factors in New Rules, and New Provinces under my control, plus aid.

Builds edited one last time....

1911

Nationalist China (Republic of China)
Economic and military data as of Jan, 1 1910
KMT China (Republic of China)
Resource points
Changsha 5, Kwieyang 6, Chengtu 6, Chungking 12, Kweiyang 6
Special Resources:
3 Coal
Production Centers:
1 at Changsha
population under KMT control 170 million
food production 208
Excess food sales: 7.6-8 points

Market Economy Peacetime. Normal income, growth 3%

Total Income: 50 (rounded, factoring in Aid, growth post mil/social spending)

other major cities:
Nanking, Hangchow, Hangchow, Nanning,

KMT Army
Guangdong Army
80,000 men
3 garrison units
Guangxi Army
45,000 men
1 garrison unit
Hunan Army
80,000 men
2 garrison units
Jiangxi Army
60,000 men
3 garrison units
Zhejiang Army
60,000 men
3 garrison units
Fujian Army
20,000
1 garrison unit
Sichuan Army
3 garrison units
1 cavalry division
1 point, upgrade 3 garrison units, 1 cavalry division to 6 garrison units, 1 cavalry division, 5 light infantry divisions (all tech level 2) for 16 pts
Guazhou Army
3 garrison units .75, upgrade to 5 garrison units (4 points)

New Model Army (currently in Fujian)

6 Regular Infantry corps (plus one Portuguese Corps as advisors)
1 Light infantry units

Republican Navy-

2 PCs-.2 matenance (RCS Sun Yat Sen, Tien Long, Shen Long)
1 Light Cruisers-.3 (RCS Armorine)

Matenance=8.1 rounded

Social Spending=Level 1-17 pts

5 points on MSS training, equipment

Points lost to various acts of palm-greasing and "special favors" -2.25 points

Growth= 1.48 (plus last year's makes a production center)

Aid Column-

Missionary aid to KMT- 1pt

Overseas Chinese aid to KMT- 1pt

Aid from USA (Secret)-10 pts

Aid from USA (Open)--15 points

Aid from UK-5pts

Builds-

6 pts on 6 Light Infantry Divisions
20 points on 4 Infantry Corps
2 Units of Mines-2pts
4 pts for 2 Light Cruisers from Japan (1/2)
4 pts for 2 PC's from Russia
2 DD2, and 6 CLs from USA-14pts

My revised. I just dfropped the growth figure since I don't get that number yet. :)

Kingdom of Norway's 1910 Budget
Population: 2.3 million
Tech level: 3

Income: 9.5
Production centers: 0
Resources: 6 (Stavanger 6)
Food production: 7
Commerce: 2 shipping unit
Cruise Ship Line: .5


Expenditures
Military maintenance: 2.65
Level 2 social spending: .5
Production Center construction (year 5 of 5): 4
Purchase of 4 CP from Denmark (0 of 3 points): .75
Repayment of Loan from USA (0 of 11.5 Points): 0
Shipping Unit construction (Year 1 of 2): 1.5

1 Supply Unit-4pts


Just to be clear, what tech level is China? I assumed that it was tech 2, and so unable to build supply units, as no one had bothered spending the points for increased transportation networks, but I could be wrong.

1 Supply Unit-4pts

China is not at the tech level that allows it to have a supply unit, most of China is tech 2 and some parts are 3.

China is not at the tech level that allows it to have a supply unit, most of China is tech 2 and some parts are 3.

we are assuming at this point that China is importing its arms, and has sufficient trained men (with help of advisors) to operate supply units

no HQs though

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11608284&postcount=3

Modified Russian Build

NPC builds 1909 - 10
(from start for Belgium and Netherlands)

Kingdom of Belgium
Population: 7.25 million, tech level 4.5, production centers: 2 (Brussels 1, Liege 1) food production: 6
Colonial Empire: Belgian Congo resources 6, food production 5, population 4.5 million
Commerce: 1 shipping unit
Belgian Army (volunteer force) (maintenance 2.25 points)
1 garrison unit, 1 fortress (Leige), 1 infantry corps, 1 reserve infantry corps
colonial forces
1 garrison unit (Belgian Congo)
1906 Budget: 11 (reduced spending) military spending: 2.25, level 3 social spending: 2.2 points, transportation upgrades: 1.5, replace garrison unit with reserve infantry corps 1 point, add 1 light infantry division 2 points, fortress for Antwerp (year 1 of 5) 1 point, river gunboat flotilla (for Congo) 1 point
1907 budget: 11 points (reduced spending), military maintenance: 2.75 points, level 3 social spending 2.2 points, construction of fortress Antwerp (year 2 of 5) transportation upgrades 1.5, torpedo boat flotilla (home waters) 3 points,
1908 budget: as above except add cavalry division for 3 points
1909 Belgium reaches tech level 5, now has 3 production centers (Brussels 1, Liege 1, Antwerp 1)
budget: 13 (reduced spending), level 3 social spending 2.25, military maintenance 3.2, fortress Antwerp (year 4 of 5) 1 point, transportation upgrades to Congo (6.5 points of 30)
1910 budget as above, but Fortress Antwerp finished, military now 4.2 annually, and add another production center in 1911 (at Brussels)

Kingdom of Netherlands
Population 6 million, tech level 4.5, production centers 1 (Rotterdam 1) food production: 18
colonial Empire
Dutch East Indies 12 + 4 oil, food production 50, population 45 million
Dutch Caribbean 1 resource (food and population included in Dutch figures)
Commerce: 3 shipping units (Netherlands may draw from Colonial population to man shipping)
Dutch Navy
Tech level 4.5 warships CP Holland, Zeeland, Friesland, Nood Brabant, Utrecht
Naval yard: Rotterdam Naval base: Batavia, Aruba, (naval maintenance: 2.5)
Dutch Army (volunteer force)
1 garrison unit, 1 light infantry brigade (Royal marines), 1 reserve infantry corps, (home) plus 1 garrison unit (Dutch East Indies) (maintenance .7 points)

1906 budget: available income 23 points (reduced spending)
scrap tech level 4 warships, level 2 social services (Holland and Caribbean) 1.2 points, level 1 social services (DEI) 4.5 points, military budget: 3.2, construction of production center (Amsterdam 13 points of 36), transportation improvements (1 point year 1 of 3)(liner unit year 1 of 2)
1907 as above, gains 1 industrial center (Rotterdam), finish liner unit
1908 as above (spending finished for Amsterdam industrial center)
1909 Netherlands reaches tech level 5,
Population 6.2 million, tech level 5, production centers 4 (Rotterdam 2, Amsterdam 2), food production 24
Colonial Empire
Dutch East Indies 12 + 5 oil, food production 50, population 48 million
Dutch Caribbean: 1 resource + 1 oil (food and population included in Dutch figures)
Commerce: 3 shipping units, 1 liner unit,
Budget: 41 points (normal spending)
Military and social maintenance: 9 points
Build: 2 destroyer flotillas (8 points), dreadnought and battlecruiser research (18 points), 1 submarine flotilla (6 points)
1910 Netherlands gains 1 production center (Amsterdam now at 3), budget: 45
Navy now consists of 5 protected cruisers (tech level 4.5 ships), 2 destroyer flotillas, 1 submarine flotilla (tech level 5 ships) + 1 naval yard, 2 naval bases, while army still consists of 2 garrison units, 1 light infantry brigade + 1 reserve infantry corps
Military Maintenance: 4
Social Spending (level 2 for home and Caribbean, level 1 for DEI) 6 points
Growth: (based off 35 points at 3% gives 1 production center next year, which will be Dutch productivity maximum)
4 battle cruisers (Tromp, De Ruyter, Nassau, Witte de With) 16 points (year 1 of 3)
4 light cruisers 4 points (year 1 of 2) 2 garrison divisions (DEI) 4 points, increase social spending to level 2 in DEI 4.5 points, increase social spending at home to level 3 for .6 points, improvements to transportation in DEI 5 points (year 1 of 6)


Imperial China
under the control of Yuan Shikai
provinces of Shaanxi, Shanxi, western Inner Mongolia (partial Japanese occupied), Langchow, Ningxia, Gangsu, Qinghai and Henan
Resources: 20 (Xian 6, Langchow 6, Lanchow 6, Xining 2
other major cities: Taiyuan, Tsinan, Chengchow, Golmul
population 130 million, food production 133
2 infantry corps, 3 garrison units, 1 militia unit, (maintenance 3 points)
18 remaining: used to buy 12 militia corps (2 each Xian, Langchow, Lanchow, Taiyuan, Tsinan, Chenghow), convert 3 garrison units to 3 light infantry divisions
14 points Russian aid 1910 (used to create 7 light infantry divisions which will become available in July)
12 points Russian aid 1909 (used to create 6 light infantry divisions which became available in March)

this in all will give the Imperial Army 2 infantry corps, 13 militia corps, 16 light infantry divisions (over 1.5 million men)

Peru
population 3.9 million, tech level 2, production center 1 (Lima), resources 5 (Lima 5, 3 to US, 2 for domestic use), 1 shipping unit
military forces: (volunteer) 1 light infantry division, 2 fortress divisions, 1 river gunboat flotilla (65,000)
1909 Budget: production 2 (cut spending) + 2 resources + 1 commerce = 5
military 1.2 points
level 2 social services: .78 points
transportation infrastructure upgrade .78 points (year 1 of 3)
purchase tech level 5 escort flotilla from US 2 point (year 1 of 2) (forming a coast guard)
1910 as above

Republic of Mexico
Population 15 million, tech level 3, production centers 1 (Mexico City), resources 11 (Chihuahua 6, Leon 5), Oil 2 (Yucatan 2) food production 35
Mexico conscript force
Regulars
3 garrison units (Mexico City, Tampico, Vera Cruz), 3 cavalry divisions (Chihuahua, Monterrey, Leon)
Reserves
20 militia infantry divisions, 3 militia cavalry divisions
1909 builds (cut spending) (budget 19) level 1 social services 1.5, military maintenance 7.25, corruption penalty 2.25, production center construction (Leon year 1 of 3) 8 points
1910 as above


Lack significant economies in game terms or spend entire budget on domestic concerns (and will be added should it be needed)
Switzerland
New Zealand
Paraguay
Ecuador
Venezuela
Colombia
Uruguay
Bolivia
Nicaruaga
Haiti
Dominican Republic
Guatemala
Honduras
Costa Rica
El Salvador
Liberia

Just to be clear, what tech level is China? I assumed that it was tech 2, and so unable to build supply units, as no one had bothered spending the points for increased transportation networks, but I could be wrong.

Fixed. Shunted a huge amount of points to renovating local infrastructure, though foreign help would be mightiliy appreciated.

special note: Imperial China is tech level 2, but is able to obtain Russian, Dutch and Belgian weapons to equip its forces to tech level 4.5 and beginning next year, tech level 5.

Arms are coming across the Gobi Desert by camel, or trickling through KMT territory after reaching Chinese ports by sea.

There is a penalty that is being paid though, as foreign aid is essentially halved and only certain units can be built (light infantry, militia).

Hey GB is there anyway to speed up the process of advancing from tech level 4-4.5-5 etc.

Ten years seems like an awfully long time when other nations have already been there and done that.

Maybe in someway funds could be invested in development to cut the time down or something?

Examples that though they are more recent I still think relevant would be east asian tiger economies where investment sped up development.

Hey GB is there anyway to speed up the process of advancing from tech level 4-4.5-5 etc.

Ten years seems like an awfully long time when other nations have already been there and done that.

Maybe in someway funds could be invested in development to cut the time down or something?

Examples that though they are more recent I still think relevant would be east asian tiger economies where investment sped up development.

yes, but not until some nations reach tech level 7

special note: Imperial China is tech level 2, but is able to obtain Russian, Dutch and Belgian weapons to equip its forces to tech level 4.5 and beginning next year, tech level 5.

Arms are coming across the Gobi Desert by camel, or trickling through KMT territory after reaching Chinese ports by sea.

There is a penalty that is being paid though, as foreign aid is essentially halved and only certain units can be built (light infantry, militia).

Russia is Tech 5 as of this year.

Russia is Tech 5 as of this year.

yes, but there is always a bit of lead time before the spiffy new weapons at the new tech level make their way to the troops, and one assumes that your troops got them first, while the older stuff went to the Chinese

Besides, your people have to get used to the technologies they have in the first place before they can start going into new markets.

Japanese Empire 1911 Builds
Population: 65
Production Centers: 25x4=100
Shipping: 22
Resources: 33 (2 from food)
Coal: 9
From ROC: 1
Total: 165
Tech Level: 5
Growth: 5%

Military Maintenance: 24
2 Infantry Corps
1 Cavalry Division
1 Light Infantry Division (Guards)
16 Reserve Infantry Corps
1 Light Infantry Brigade (Special Naval Landing Force)
2 HQ units
Theater Supply Unit
6 Fortress Corps
2 Fortresses
2 Dreadnoughts
2 Battlecruisers
14 Battleships
8 Armored Cruisers
12 Protected Cruisers
3 destroyer flotillas
3 torpedo boat flotillas

Naval Yards
Kure, Yokosuka, Kobe, Nagasaki,
Naval bases
Hiroshima, Yokohoma, Pusan (Korea), Tainan (Formosa), Port Arthur (Manchuria)

Level 2 Social Safety for All: 12
Level 2 Social Safety for Manchuria: 2
Left: 128

Buy:
2 Battlecruisers(1/3): 8
4 Dreadnoughts (2/3) (Germany): 16
10 Light Cruisers (2/2): 10
Operation China: 3
Production Center in Seoul (2/24): 1
Intelligence Agency: 10
3 Infantry Corps: 12
Amphibious Doctrine: 12
Battlecruiser Technology: 6
3 Siege Artillery Units: 6
5 Fortress Corps: 15
5 Garrisons: 10
2 Cavalry Divisions: 4
3 Infantry Corps for CSG: 12
Transport Group: 3
Light Cruiser for ROC: 1

due to tech level advance food production increases to the following in the following countries:

France - 55
Japan -- 90
Russia -- 180

Special Rule: Food production is penalized by 2% for each percentage point of men mobilized into military service until tech level 7 above the usual 3% norm. So for example, if the Russians have food production of 180, and a population of 175 million, and have mobilized 5% of their population (9 million men, or roughly 360 divisions worth of troops), Russian food production is reduced by 4% (down from 180 to 172). Which means Russia starts to have food shortages and either has to import or ration food. If Russia starts losing agricultural areas it suffers even more shortages.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11758542&postcount=279

1910 modified one more time...

Not to be a jerk or anything, but neither New Dracora nor Lachenburg have done their builds (to my knowledge), and it is keeping me from having my 1910 build finished.

So, if those two nations could finish their builds ASAP and continue on, it would be VERY much appreciated. Otherwise, something needs to be done (GB do builds,etc.)

My bad. Been a bit busy this week....

edit - Aussie Build 1910 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11770467&postcount=19)

Sooooo does 1911 begin on schedule? Or are we still on the time slow? I need to know so I can do my 1911 builds or not?

Sooooo does 1911 begin on schedule? Or are we still on the time slow? I need to know so I can do my 1911 builds or not?

1911 starts Tuesday as normal

Alright, then I have done my 1911 builds.

1910 builds for

Britain

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11773237&postcount=210

Canada

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11773253&postcount=32

South Africa

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11773259&postcount=7

Persian Empire, 1910

Resources: 1

Tehran-1

Population: 5 million

Food Production: 5

Other Income: Aid-8

Builds:

1 Regular Infantry Corp: 4

2 Reserve Infantry Corps: 4

1 Milita Infantry Corp: 1 point

Islamic Republic of Free Persia

1910

Population: 5 million
Tech Level: 2
Food Production: 5 points
Income: 1-Resource
1 oil point (to Britain)
Aid: 18- From Britain

Build:

1 Infantry Corps

2 Reserve Inf Corps

9/24-Production Center

Infrastructure Upgrade-1 point (year 1/2)

Danish Build 1911

Military Upkeep: 1.6
Road Rail Improvements: .5 (3/3)
Social Spending Lvl 3: .81
Merchant Marine: .75 (1.5 total) (assuming .75 payment from Norway)

Foreign Expendature:

Coal from US: 1
Purchase Dreadnaught from Britian: 4 (1/3)
Germany: 2

Total Spent: 10.66

Growth: (4 + 6 + 1 - 2.4) * 5% = .43
Total Growth: 1.41 (new production centre next year)

Tech Level 4.5 in 8 years

You may get more than .75- I think I'll be getting enough income to fund the purchase a bit more. Don't take my word for that, though- I'm only guessing right this moment.

Kingdom of Norway's 1910 Budget
Population: 2.3 million
Tech level: 4

Income: 12.5
Production centers: 1 (Stavanger 1)
Resources: 5 (Stavanger 5)
Food production: 7
Commerce: 2 shipping unit
Cruise Ship Line: .5
Funds from United States: 6


Market Economy (Normal): Growth 3%
Growth: .28

Expenditures
Military maintenance: 2.65
Level 2 social spending: .5
Purchase of 4 CP from Denmark (.75 of 3 points): 2.25
Repayment of Loan from USA (0 of 11.5 Points): 1.5
Shipping Unit construction (Year 2 of 2): 1.5
Shipping Unit construction (Year 1 of 1): 3
Research into improved methods of shipping: 1.1
Naval Base in Bergen (Year 1 of 1): 6

[OOC- Changes: I'm now tech 4! Yay! I have the 4 new CP, and those are calculated into my Military Maintenance. That should be all the major changes so far. I'm also researching new shipping methods- trying to improve eficiency of current ships or make better units or something like that. Thus the 1.1 points.]

Parthini;11773289']Islamic Republic of Free Persia

1910

Population: Unknown
Income: 1- Resource
Aid: 18- From Britain

Build:

2 Infantry Corps

10/24-Production Center.

population 5 million, food production 5, the oil is in your share of Persia as well

1911:
Population 4 million
Tech level 3

Income:
Production centers 0,
Resources 6 (Sofia 6)
Coal 1
Food production 4
From Rumania: 2 points (Year 3 out of 3)
From Greece: 1 point (Year 2 out of 3)
From Germany: 10 points
From USA: 6 points
Shipping: 1 points

Total: 26 points

Expenses:

Maintenance:0.80

Military:
1 Regular Cavalry division 0.25
3 regular Mountain Divisions 0.3
1 Garison Unit 0.25

Social Services level II: 0.8 points
Production Centre: 10 points (24/24)
Shipping Construction: 3 points


Military Construction:
Upgrade 3 Regular Mountain Divisions to 1 Regular Modern Infantry Corps (Using German Weapons) : 2 points.
Upgrade 1 Garison Unit to 1 regular Cavalry Division (Using German Weapons): 1 point
Upgrade 3 Reserve Mountain Divisions to 1 Reserve Modern Infantry Corps (Using German Weapons): 1 point (?)
2 reserve Light Infantry Brigades: 2 points.
3 regular Light Infantry Brigades: 3 points.

<Uncomplete>

I am aiming to upgrade a mountain division to a reserve infantry corps, but they both cost the same, so I assume 1 point should be at least spent?

Aussie build 1911 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11781845&postcount=21)

I also edited the 1910 build to make account of the new growth rules that I missed earlier.

Another thing to note - Australia reached it's production maximum in 1910. It has thus invested 1 growth point into New Zealand.....

I have no idea what that means. :p

NPC nations (to be updated over the course of the game)

NPC builds 1911
1911 Belgium
population 7.5 million, tech level 5, production centers: 3 (Brussels 1, Leige 1, Antwerp 1) food production 10, commerce 1 shipping unit, colonial empire: Belgian Congo 6, food production 5, colonial population 5 million
1911 spending: production cut spending: 6 + 7 = 13
military and social spending maintenance: 6.5, growth 6% (add new production center 1914), transportation upgrades to Congo 6.5 points (13 of 30 now spent)
military forces: Home – fortress at Antwerp and Leige, 1 infantry corps, 2 reserve infantry corps (all 3 are conscript), 1 light infantry division, 1 cavalry division, 1 tech 5 motor torpedo boat flotilla,
colonial forces: 1 garrison unit, 1 river boat flotilla in Congo

1911 Netherlands
Population 6 million, tech level 5, production centers 5 (Rotterdam 3, Amsterdam 2) food production: 22
colonial Empire
Dutch East Indies 12 + 4 oil, food production 50, population 47 million
Dutch Caribbean 1 resource (food and population included in Dutch figures)
Commerce: 3 shipping units, 1 liner unit (Netherlands may draw from Colonial population to man shipping)
budget: 20 + 3.5 + 16 + 1 + 3.5 = 44 points (peacetime spending)
military and home (level 3) and colonial (level 1) social services maintenance 15.8
continue construction 4 battle cruisers (Tromp, De Ruyter, Witte de With, William of Orange),(year 2 of 3) 16 points 4 light cruisers (Java, Sumatra, Aruba, Borneo) (year 2 of 2) 4 points, improvements to transportation in DEI 5 points (year 2 of 6), fortress Holland (hex due east of Rotterdam) 1 point, (year 1 of 5), 1 Coast defense unit for Batavia (DEI) 3 points
current military: 5 protected cruisers (tech level 4.5 ships), 2 destroyer flotillas, 1 submarine flotilla (tech level 5 ships) + 1 naval yard, 2 naval bases, while army still consists of 4 garrison units (1 home, 3 colonial), 1 light infantry brigade + 1 reserve infantry corps

1911 Imperial China
controls provinces of Shaanxi, Shanxi, southwestern Inner Mongolia, Langchow, Ningxia, Gangsu, and Qinghai
Resources: 20 (Xian 6, Langchow 6, Lanchow 6, Xining 2) other major cities: Taiyuan, Tsinan, Chengchow, Golmul, population 130 million, food production 133
Military forces: 2 infantry corps, 10 militia corps, 20 light infantry divisions (maintenance: 3.5 points, all are equipped at tech level 5 and are a conscript force)
Budget: 1911 20 + 15 points Russian aid: military maintenance 3.5 points, transportation improvements 13 points (year 1 of 3), upgrade 8 militia corps to reserve infantry corps 16 points, level 1 social services to 25 million people (urban populations) 2.5 points

Peru 1911
Population 4 million, tech level 4, production centers 2 (Lima), resources 4 (Lima, 3 to US), 1 shipping unit
1911 budget: 8 + 3 + 1 = 12 points (regular spending)
military forces (volunteer): 2 fortress divisions, 1 light infantry division, 1 tech level 5 escort flotilla (coast guard), 1 tech level 5 gunboat flotilla (1.10 points)
level 2 social services: .8 points, build naval base 6 points, build reserve infantry corps 2 points, plus 2 points for contingency budget

Republic of Mexico
Population 15 million, tech level 3, production centers 1 (Mexico City), resources 11 (Chihuahua 6, Leon 5), Oil 2 (Yucatan 2) food production 35
Mexico conscript force
Regulars
3 garrison units (Mexico City, Tampico, Vera Cruz), 3 cavalry divisions (Chihuahua, Monterrey, Leon)
Reserves
20 militia infantry divisions, 3 militia cavalry divisions
1909 builds (cut spending) (budget 19) level 1 social services 1.5, military maintenance 7.25, corruption penalty 2.25, production center construction (Leon year 1 of 3) 8 points
1910 as above
1911 as above


Lack significant economies in game terms or spend entire budget on domestic concerns (and will be added should it be needed)
Switzerland
New Zealand
Paraguay
Ecuador
Venezuela
Colombia
Uruguay
Bolivia
Nicaruaga
Haiti
Dominican Republic
Guatemala
Honduras
Costa Rica
El Salvador
Liberia


1911 NPC builds

Aussie build 1911 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11781845&postcount=21)

I also edited the 1910 build to make account of the new growth rules that I missed earlier.

Another thing to note - Australia reached it's production maximum in 1910. It has thus invested 1 growth point into New Zealand.....

I have no idea what that means. :p

It brings New Zealand up to tech level 3 (it was almost there anyway)
New Zealand now has 3 resource points (1 to Great Britian, 1 to Australia, and 1 to pay for level 3 social services for its population)

I am aiming to upgrade a mountain division to a reserve infantry corps, but they both cost the same, so I assume 1 point should be at least spent?

yes, 1 point

Siam reaches Tech Level IV in 1911.

Siam Build (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11773569&postcount=25)

Does Siam gain anything from going up tech level?

1911

Nationalist China (Republic of China)
Economic and military data as of Jan, 1 1910
KMT China (Republic of China)
Resource points
Changsha 5, Kwieyang 6, Chengtu 6, Chungking 12,
Special Resources:
3 Coal
Production Centers:
1 at Changsha
population under KMT control 170 million
food production 208
Excess food sales: 7.6-8 points

Market Economy Peacetime. Normal income, growth 3%

Total Income: 40 (rounded, factoring in Aid, growth post mil/social spending)

other major cities:
Nanking, Hangchow, Hangchow, Nanning,

KMT Army
Guangdong Army
80,000 men
3 garrison units
Guangxi Army
45,000 men
1 garrison unit
Hunan Army
80,000 men
2 garrison units
Jiangxi Army
60,000 men
3 garrison units
Zhejiang Army
60,000 men
3 garrison units
Fujian Army
20,000
1 garrison unit
Sichuan Army
3 garrison units
1 cavalry division
1 point, upgrade 3 garrison units, 1 cavalry division to 6 garrison units, 1 cavalry division, 5 light infantry divisions (all tech level 2) for 16 pts
Guazhou Army
3 garrison units .75, upgrade to 5 garrison units (4 points)

New Model Army (currently in Fujian)

6 Regular Infantry corps (plus one Portuguese Corps as advisors)
1 Light infantry units

Republican Navy-

Matenance=8.1 rounded

Social Spending=Level 1-17 pts

5 points on MSS training, equipment

Points lost to various acts of palm-greasing and "special favors" -2.25 points

Growth= 1.19 (plus last year's makes a production center)

Aid Column-

Missionary aid to KMT- 1pt

Overseas Chinese aid to KMT- 1pt

Aid from USA (Secret)-10 pts

Aid from USA (Open)--15 points

Aid from UK-5pts

Builds-

3 pts on 3 Militia Units
20 points on 4 Infantry Corps
2 Units of Mines-2pts
2 DD2, and 6 CLs from USA-14pts
1pt for miscellaneous projects

Revised 1911 builds.

Brazil Builds '11 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11785233&postcount=31)

My build has now been updated. I'm also Tech Level 4 now- just so you're aware, Galveston Bay.

Siam reaches Tech Level IV in 1911.

Siam Build (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11773569&postcount=25)

Does Siam gain anything from going up tech level?


food production increases to 28 for Siam

My build has now been updated. I'm also Tech Level 4 now- just so you're aware, Galveston Bay.

Norway food production increases to 9

Spending 1911
Available: 17.5(4 production, 11 resources, 1 excess food, 1 commerce, .5 cruise liner)
Military Maintinence- 2.9
Level III Social Spending- 1.02
Valparaiso Naval Yard Construction- 6.14(12 of 12)
Intel Agency- 7.44(7.44 of 10)
Corruption Penalty- .6
Spent: 17.5
Surplus: 0
Growth: 3%
Accumulated Growth: .8

Also, I'm tech four now.

How does exporting growth work? Britain will be maxed out (except I haven't updated the Population yet), so do I just tell you how many point I exported and you tell me the benefits or what?

Also, what tech level are all colonies?

1911 British Build

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11785729&postcount=221

1911 and 1912 Builds for Ireland, Persia, Canada and South Africa

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11785740&postcount=222

1911 Rumania Build (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11669231&postcount=6)

Parthini;11785631']How does exporting growth work? Britain will be maxed out (except I haven't updated the Population yet), so do I just tell you how many point I exported and you tell me the benefits or what?

Also, what tech level are all colonies?

tech level 2 unless otherwise indicated (India is 3, Hong Kong is 3, Shanghai is 4, New Zealand is 3, other Dominions are 4 or higher)

remember you can update population annually if you have reliable figures

you may export growth, to a limited extent, but must start with Ireland first (until it reaches max)

Spending 1911
Available: 17.5(4 production, 11 resources, 1 excess food, 1 commerce, .5 cruise liner)
Military Maintinence- 2.9
Level III Social Spending- 1.02
Valparaiso Naval Yard Construction- 6.14(12 of 12)
Intel Agency- 7.44(7.44 of 10)
Corruption Penalty- .6
Spent: 17.5
Surplus: 0
Growth: 3%
Accumulated Growth: .8

Also, I'm tech four now.

food production expands to 10

1911:
Population 4 million
Tech level 3

Income:
Production centers 0,
Resources 6 (Sofia 6)
Coal 1
Food production 4
From Rumania: 2 points (Year 3 out of 3)
From Greece: 1 point (Year 2 out of 3)
From Germany: 10 points
From USA: 6 points
Shipping: 1 points

Total: 26 points

Expenses:

Maintenance:0.80



Social Services level II: 0.8 points
Production Centre: 10 points (24/24)
Shipping Construction: 3 points


Military Construction:
Upgrade 3 Regular Mountain Divisions to 1 Regular Modern Infantry Corps (Using German Weapons) : 2 points.
Upgrade 1 Garison Unit to 1 regular Cavalry Division (Using German Weapons): 1 point
Upgrade 3 Reserve Mountain Divisions to 1 Reserve Modern Infantry Corps (Using German Weapons): 1 point (?)
2 reserve Light Infantry Brigades: 2 points.
3 regular Light Infantry Brigades: 3 points.

<Uncomplete>

Bulgaria reaches tech level 4, also its food production increases to 6

Denmark went to tech 4 in 1909 and I was wondering if there was any appropriate increases in food. I'm not sure if that was noticed

Argentina reached Tech 4 in 1906 or earlier (as Argentina had a prod center in 1906, dunno how many years Argentina had the prod center before 1906).

So I'm not sure if food production increase was factored in or not for Argentina in 1906.

Argentina reached Tech 4 in 1906 or earlier (as Argentina had a prod center in 1906, dunno how many years Argentina had the prod center before 1906).

So I'm not sure if food production increase was factored in or not for Argentina in 1906.

Sharina already has its food production increase factored in

same for Denmark (I already gave you the increase when I did the Danish builds)

Special Rules
Transcontinental Railroad projects
Cape to Cairo Rail line 1 point per 100 miles, maximum 300 miles a year

Baghdad to Berlin railline 1 point per 200 miles in Europe, 1 point per 100 miles in Asia, maximum 400 miles a year in Europe, 300 miles a year in Asia. No bridges of Dardenelles (uses ferries)

Upgrading TransSiberian Railway from single track to double track 1 point per 200 miles, maximum 400 miles a year

Fortresses
cost 1 point a year to maintain, but take 1 point a year for 5 years to build

Current Recessions and Economic Slow Downs
Recession in Britian.. growth reduced by - 2 1911 - 12 as industry adjusts to Indian embargo
Depression in Japan -- no growth 1911 - 13 as economic strain of 2 wars is a problem

note economic problems

I have another economy-related question about Argentina.

When will Argentina reach Tech Level 4.5? Argentina already had a production center in 1906 when we started the 2nd E20 timeline, so I am unsure how many years Argentina had the production center before 1906. Did Argentina get its first production center in 1900? 1903? 1905?

I recall the Spanish player having a similiar question that he asked about Spain's tech advancement and economy a while ago.

While the questions are about tech, when can Australia expect to advance in tech level?

you may export growth, to a limited extent, but must start with Ireland first (until it reaches max)

I'd like to object to any sort of "exporting growth" notion for six reasons:
1. Simply put, exporting growth isn't realistic. While it is true that increased capital does lead to economic growth, capital is a relatively minor component in increased growth. Also, capital flows go to wherever the greatest return on investment can be found, not to where a country's government designates.
2. Exporting growth adds another thing to keep track of in an already complicated economic system.
3. While it would be realistic, there is no real need to model international financial flows in any way for E20. The game worked fine last time and has been working this time without it. (This run in particular we've seen many nations industrialize by begging loans or aid from larger nations.)
4. In general, economic growth is already far too easy to come by in E20. Nations get it by default with no variability, leading to extreme ease in creating a healthy economy. In reality, for former half of the century was marked by rapid economic swings for most countries. Although some achieved quick economic growth, it was usually very variable. Example: Indian Economic Growth (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Indias_growth_rate_of_real_GDP_per_capita(1950-2004).png/280px-Indias_growth_rate_of_real_GDP_per_capita(1950-2004).png)

Given this economic boom built into the system, I see no reason to add another way to attain economic growth.

5. One of the major set pieces of the 20th century has been crushing poverty in the Third World, especially in Africa. Letting countries export growth will quickly lead to the industrialization of all countries, making poverty a non-issue.

6. Exporting growth kills kittens. Do you want to kill kittens? I thought not.

Think of the kittens! :(

6. Exporting growth kills kittens. Do you want to kill kittens? I thought not.

Oh, my god. If I had only known...*breaks into tears and huddles in a corner.*

6. Exporting growth kills kittens. Do you want to kill kittens?

Kittens are teh devil. *sets fire to kittens*

I think they solved the problem of growth export by making exported growth not as effective as normal growth, owing to factors of corruption or something.

1911:
Population 4 million
Tech level 4

Income:
Production centers 0,
Resources 6 (Sofia 6)
Coal 1
Food production 6
From Rumania: 2 points (Year 3 out of 3)
From Greece: 1 point (Year 2 out of 3)
From Germany: 10 points
From USA: 6 points
Shipping: 1 points
Food Export: 0.4 points

Total: 26.4 points

Expenses:

Maintenance:0.80

Social Services level II: 0.8 points
Production Centre: 10 points (24/24)
Shipping Construction: 3 points
Emergency Funds/Funds for diplomatic deals: 2.3 points

Military Construction:
Upgrade 3 Regular Mountain Divisions to 1 Regular Modern Infantry Corps (Using German Weapons) : 2 points.
Upgrade 1 Garison Unit to 1 regular Cavalry Division (Using German Weapons): 1 point
Upgrade 3 Reserve Mountain Divisions to 1 Reserve Modern Infantry Corps (Using German Weapons): 1 point
2 reserve Light Infantry Brigades: 2 points.
1 regular Light Infantry Brigades: 1 point.
1 Motor Torpedo Boat Flotilla <British Charter>: 1 point
1 Battleship (BB2) (Purchase from Britain): 1.5 points

I'd like to object to any sort of "exporting growth" notion for six reasons:
1. Simply put, exporting growth isn't realistic. While it is true that increased capital does lead to economic growth, capital is a relatively minor component in increased growth. Also, capital flows go to wherever the greatest return on investment can be found, not to where a country's government designates.
2. Exporting growth adds another thing to keep track of in an already complicated economic system.
3. While it would be realistic, there is no real need to model international financial flows in any way for E20. The game worked fine last time and has been working this time without it. (This run in particular we've seen many nations industrialize by begging loans or aid from larger nations.)
4. In general, economic growth is already far too easy to come by in E20. Nations get it by default with no variability, leading to extreme ease in creating a healthy economy. In reality, for former half of the century was marked by rapid economic swings for most countries. Although some achieved quick economic growth, it was usually very variable. Example: Indian Economic Growth (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Indias_growth_rate_of_real_GDP_per_capita(1950-2004).png/280px-Indias_growth_rate_of_real_GDP_per_capita(1950-2004).png)

Given this economic boom built into the system, I see no reason to add another way to attain economic growth.

5. One of the major set pieces of the 20th century has been crushing poverty in the Third World, especially in Africa. Letting countries export growth will quickly lead to the industrialization of all countries, making poverty a non-issue.

6. Exporting growth kills kittens. Do you want to kill kittens? I thought not.

so far the only growth exported (or cleared for it) it British growth to Ireland, and that is because essentially Ireland is as closely tied to the British economy as Wales or Scotland is.

I have also started adding recessions and depressions (note that the British and Japan are facing one this year)

That said, still looking over the exporting growth thing. It probably would be better to limit it to very specific situations

incidently, I like puppies better

I have the question of when Spain reached tech level 4.5 did my food production go up? Spain's farmers on the outskirts, granted would be the same as they ever were. But farmers around cities who could get tractors and more reliable railroads to get their crops to market would increase their production. Not to mention for the size of SPain, it's always had few people in it. SPain's a rather large country for only 20 million.

I have the question of when Spain reached tech level 4.5 did my food production go up? Spain's farmers on the outskirts, granted would be the same as they ever were. But farmers around cities who could get tractors and more reliable railroads to get their crops to market would increase their production. Not to mention for the size of SPain, it's always had few people in it. SPain's a rather large country for only 20 million.

Spanish food production increases somewhat to 48 (not so much tractors as improved storage facilities)

Real effects of tech level advancement regarding food production
tech 3 - improved transportation of agricultural products to market (usually by railroad). Food production is no longer localized.
tech 4 - further improvements in transportation (more rail), limited refrigeration,improved tools like animal driven reapers (instead of peasants harvesting by hand), canning becomes a major industry
tech 4.5 more improvements, refrigeration more common, canning widespread
tech 5 - first tractors, and trucks available to haul products to market or to rail hubs.
tech 5.5 -- refrigerated trucks, tractors widespread (for crops like wheat), first pesticides
tech 6 -- pesticides become common, tractors and trucks normal,
tech 6.5 -- as above but also first applied genetic engineering for Agricultural products (practical not lab)
tech 7 - improvements in genetic engineering, pesticides, and techniques
tech 7.5 - as above
tech 8 -- as above but improved inventory control and transportation networking
tech 8.5 -- as above, but now overnight transportation of speciality agricultural products a norm
tech 9 -- who knows, but probably further improvements in genetic engineering

I have another economy-related question about Argentina.

When will Argentina reach Tech Level 4.5? Argentina already had a production center in 1906 when we started the 2nd E20 timeline, so I am unsure how many years Argentina had the production center before 1906. Did Argentina get its first production center in 1900? 1903? 1905?

I recall the Spanish player having a similiar question that he asked about Spain's tech advancement and economy a while ago.

Argentina gained its production center in 1896

Denmark went to tech 4 in 1909 and I was wondering if there was any appropriate increases in food. I'm not sure if that was noticed

Danish food production now at 11

Thank you for the info. Now to go change some stuff in my uhhh Spanish Thread.

While the questions are about tech, when can Australia expect to advance in tech level?


note in British thread that the Canadian Parliament modified its budget to improve its transportation infrastructure so it could get to tech 5

Australia has met the time requirements to move up tech level, so should advance as of 1911. This will improve food production to 40

I have the question of when Spain reached tech level 4.5 did my food production go up? Spain's farmers on the outskirts, granted would be the same as they ever were. But farmers around cities who could get tractors and more reliable railroads to get their crops to market would increase their production. Not to mention for the size of SPain, it's always had few people in it. SPain's a rather large country for only 20 million.

The reason Spain has so few people is due to mismanagement of land. Nobles overgrazed their fields and didn't really harvest many crops from the vast amounts of land they had. Also, they never really cared much for feeding the peasants which is why famine was a regular occurance in Spain untill after Franco took power. Frankly, I'm surprised Spains food production is so HIGH.

The nobles of SPain got booted out of power early and basically Weyler's government is alot like Franco's ended up being. Mostly because Weyler was alot less corrupt than the earlier dictator (HIstorically, later in life he was much less corrupt than the other alternatives.) ANd so Spain is very different in my 1911 than in real 1911. Which was why I questioned it's growth. Right now SPain of E-20 is very different from the real wordl. Which is why I always ask if there is a difference in population. My world has relegated many nobles to back doors without power. And the military has made a very public service kind of state that has a little bit of Republican voting simply for reasons of the military doesn't care about city ordinances as long as they don't go against the Federal government. So nobles are extremelly limited in this universe as their political power has been superceded by the military. Thank god Weyler was actually not a bad leader if you look at history. He just made some mistakes during the 1890's, and in fact those mistakes saved Spain from a larger civil War early on. The SPanish American war was actually a godsend to spain in many ways. Even in defeat.

And I don't see any 20th century famines in SPain to tell the truth. And in fact Spain was one of the major suppliers of food to Great Britain during the First World War.

ooc
Sukaida, I recognize your points

however, industralized nations have historically low birth rates for a lot of reasons, primarily because fewer children are needed to support the parents in their old age, infant mortality is lower, parents work long hours away from the home, marriage occurs later in life, and a whole host of other social - anthropologic reasons.

So population growth will stick to the historical rate. You just may skip the Spanish Civil War and the nasty casualties that occured.

I need all PC countries, but particularly Germany, Russia, France, Italy, Austria Hungary, all of the Balkans, Ottoman Empire, British Empire, and and Japan and Nationalist China to post in their national threads their current 1911 armed forces, and importantly, where those forces are in this format

example
Germany
Berlin - 1 Guards Infantry corps, 2 reserve infantry corps

Japan
Southern Fleet (based at Formosa)
BB Mikasa, 1 destroyer flotilla

it would make life much easier for me, and things may be happening in the near future

Builds for 1911:

Tech Level: 2
Production Centers: 0
Resources: 3
Food Production: 6
Foreign Aid: 4 (from the US), 1 (from Greece; year 2 of 5)

Total Income: 8

Domestic Expenditures:

Level I Safety Net: .25 points
Special Infastructure Improvements: .50 points (Year 3 out of 3)
Construction of Production Center: 5.65 points (11.3 out of 24)
Total: 5.75 points

Maintenence Costs:

Army of Albania: .60 point
Fort Skanderbeg (Fortress in Skutari): 1 point
Total: 1.6 points

Military Expenditures:

None

Foreign Expenditures:

None

Total Expenditures: 8 points
Reserve: 0

Actually the population during the time of the SPanish American war stayed the same in growth. About 200,000 more people a year. THat's kinda curious and I wonder why that is.

1911 Peru Build

Income:
Industry: 8
Commerce: 1 (1 Shipping Unit)
Domestic Resources: 4 (3 to US)
Domestic Food Sales: .2
Aid from USA: 3

1911 Budget: 8+3+1+.2+3=15.2

Domestic Expenditures:
Level 3 Social Safety Net - 1.2

Maintenance Costs:
Peruvian Army - 1.10
Peruvian Navy - .2

Military Expenditures:
Build Naval Base - 6
Build Shipping Unit - 3
Build Passenger Liner (Year 1 of 2) - 3
Reserve Infantry Corps (Year 1 of 3) - .7

Total Expenditures = 1.2+1.3+12 = 15.2

Growth (Market Economy Peacetime) = .291

So does anyone know how long Peru has been at tech level 4?

Argentina gained its production center in 1896

All right- so this means Argentina should be tech 5 in 1916, correct?

Tech level 4. – requires level 2 social services, 1 production center per 50 million people.

(1896 with the prod center)

Tech level 4.5 – requires 1 production center per 10 million people and 10 years at tech level 4

(1906 after 10 years of 1 prod center and being tech 4 since 1896)

Tech level 5 – requires 1 production center per 5 million people, transportation infrastructure improvements (yes, spend again as it represents paved roads for cars and trucks), and 10 years at tech level 4.5

(I'm currently doing transportation improvement, and I have 6 prod centers as of 1911, and should reach Tech 5 requirement by 1916 after 10 years of being tech 4.5)

Is this about right?

All right- so this means Argentina should be tech 5 in 1916, correct?

Tech level 4. – requires level 2 social services, 1 production center per 50 million people.

(1896 with the prod center)

Tech level 4.5 – requires 1 production center per 10 million people and 10 years at tech level 4

(1906 after 10 years of 1 prod center and being tech 4 since 1896)

Tech level 5 – requires 1 production center per 5 million people, transportation infrastructure improvements (yes, spend again as it represents paved roads for cars and trucks), and 10 years at tech level 4.5

(I'm currently doing transportation improvement, and I have 6 prod centers as of 1911, and should reach Tech 5 requirement by 1916 after 10 years of being tech 4.5)

Is this about right?

No. Argentina reached tech level 4 in 1906, since that was the first year of Level II Social Services. Thus, 10 years later (1916) it will reach tech level 4.5, and then tech level 5 ten years after that (1926).

All right- so this means Argentina should be tech 5 in 1916, correct?

No. Argentina hit tech 4 in 1907, as it was tech 3 in 1906 (see the original post).

Therefore, you will be tech 4.5 in 1917 and tech 5 in 1927, unless something slows that down.

note in British thread that the Canadian Parliament modified its budget to improve its transportation infrastructure so it could get to tech 5

Australia has met the time requirements to move up tech level, so should advance as of 1911. This will improve food production to 40

Mkay, groovy.

So in theory I should now reach tech 5 in 1921. I can't help but wonder if that is a little long. I mean, I've had level 2 transport improvements and level 3 social spending since 1906, I also have strong ties with a level 5 country - wouldn't these things accelerate the process a little?

Perhaps we could use excess growth for tech advancement......

Perhaps we could use excess growth for tech advancement......
Sounds like a very good plan to me, because soon I'm going to have lots of excess points and growth, and nothing to spend them on, so it would make some sense to be able to increase my tech advancement with heavy investment.

Economics rules in effect 1906

1)

If a country has reached its economic productivity maximum and still has growth, those production centers created represent excess capital available to the private sector and will appear in a country of the players choosing (basically your banking industry is loaning people money). If the player doesn’t choose a country, then the referee will choose one.

2)

Industrial centers may be built (for 48 points or 24 points if built to replace a resource area) or repaired (for 12 points). In addition, 2 damaged industrial centers can be combined (reflects salvage efforts) to form 1 undamaged industrial center. This represents direct government spending on industrialization, and only command economies may build industrial centers in their own countries. (as its direct competition with the free market). No more then 5 production centers a year may be added in this way by any one country.


3)

Intelligence Agencies
Funding does not ensure a competent or effective intelligence agencies. It does help though. Base cost is 10 points and creates a 5,000 person organization able to analyze data, do some spying and code breaking and able to investigate dangerous threats to the government (kind of a combination of the US FBI and CIA or KGB in the real world). To maintain an intelligence agency costs 5 points a year (assume that everyone who has one already has been funding it for the course of the game, and has done so for 1947... next year though, you will have to budget for it)

Having an intelligence agency allows you to occasionally get secret information from the Referees on what is going on in the world, and effectiveness varies widely. Most intelligence agencies are good at knowing what their neighbors can do or are planning, and effectiveness decreases the further away they are looking.


Some points I need addressing:
1) Could you explain this? So if I had, say excess growth equivilant to one production centre, and I chose Montenegro, how many points would Montenegro get?

2)But everyone has to built their first production centre? Can market economies only build Production centres that are replacing resource centres?

3)How about an internal agency, which is cheaper to set up, has a maintenance cost which is proportional to the population, but only deals with internal matters? Just a suggestion.

Some points I need addressing:
1) Could you explain this? So if I had, say excess growth equivilant to one production centre, and I chose Montenegro, how many points would Montenegro get? .\

this rule is being reviewed


2)But everyone has to built their first production centre? Can market economies only build Production centres that are replacing resource centres?.

no, they just cost more once you run out of resource centers


3)How about an internal agency, which is cheaper to set up, has a maintenance cost which is proportional to the population, but only deals with internal matters? Just a suggestion.

police units have been created in the military thread for this purpose

Mkay, groovy.

So in theory I should now reach tech 5 in 1921. I can't help but wonder if that is a little long. I mean, I've had level 2 transport improvements and level 3 social spending since 1906, I also have strong ties with a level 5 country - wouldn't these things accelerate the process a little?

Perhaps we could use excess growth for tech advancement......

not a bad idea, will consider it

No. Argentina reached tech level 4 in 1906, since that was the first year of Level II Social Services. Thus, 10 years later (1916) it will reach tech level 4.5, and then tech level 5 ten years after that (1926).

Malkyer and Middle Snu are correct

Yeah like I can't reach tech level 5 til 1917. And such.

Anyone know what kind of economy Albania has? I figure it is fre market, but not sure...

Anyone know what kind of economy Albania has? I figure it is fre market, but not sure...

Until the advent of State Socialism (1919 in rl, with the formation of the USSR), all production-oriented (as opposed to extractive, or colonial) economies are market based, I'm pretty sure.

And even some dictatoral governments have market economies. My example is the Franco government in the 1960's and 70's. It was actually mostly a market economy with a Facist government. Really weird. So yeah probably Market.

Until the advent of State Socialism (1919 in rl, with the formation of the USSR), all production-oriented (as opposed to extractive, or colonial) economies are market based, I'm pretty sure.

So, events that happened in real life, will happen in game? I see many in game events happened based off of real-life events that I dont think would happen in game. Like the USS Maine issue, was the Maine deployed as it was in real life?

Yes the USS Maine happened in 1898. So the events leading up til 1906 are exactly the same. And the USS Maine investigation was a seperate thing that really had no outside influences except historians and public defenders trying to figure a way of getting rid of it. Remember the USS Maine clogged up Havanahh Harbor when it was there.

Until the advent of State Socialism (1919 in rl, with the formation of the USSR), all production-oriented (as opposed to extractive, or colonial) economies are market based, I'm pretty sure.

until the communists or socialists manage to take power some where, command economies are still a neat theory

only other possibility is a long drawn out total war

GB, I've gone to national effort. How many points does that leave me for the rest of the year?

Yes the USS Maine happened in 1898. So the events leading up til 1906 are exactly the same. And the USS Maine investigation was a seperate thing that really had no outside influences except historians and public defenders trying to figure a way of getting rid of it. Remember the USS Maine clogged up Havanahh Harbor when it was there.

Mm...I see. They were reffering to the investigation, not the actually event.

GB, I've gone to national effort. How many points does that leave me for the rest of the year?

you have 35 production centers, which would normally give you another 70 points. However, these are prorated from April (9/12s or 75%). So you get 75% of those 70 points (which works out to be 52.5 points)

Nations that declare national effort at this point will not have it go into effect until May (which would be 66% of their available extra points normally gained by increasing production by 2 points per production center)

Resources, commerce etc are NOT increased by national effort, only production

Germany is going National Efort.

Germany is going National Efort.

same rules as for the Russians, except Germany can't do it until May

GB, on the order of my Cape-Singapore Railroad, what is the maximum I can build a year, and can I split it up into 2+ projects to speed it up?

Parthini;11796714']GB, on the order of my Cape-Singapore Railroad, what is the maximum I can build a year, and can I split it up into 2+ projects to speed it up?

no more then 12 points a year, and no you can't split it into multiple projects

no more then 12 points a year, and no you can't split it into multiple projects

So, 5000 miles, and is it 1 point per 100 miles, so I can do 1200 miles a year?

Parthini;11796790']So, 5000 miles, and is it 1 point per 100 miles, so I can do 1200 miles a year?

1200 miles a year is pretty good actually

1200 miles a year is pretty good actually

K.

Actually, can I make it 1250 so that I can finish it in 4 years?

Parthini;11797515']K.

Actually, can I make it 1250 so that I can finish it in 4 years?


sure

So will I be able to go national effort when these two goto war?

If you go to war with Germany or RUssia, I gather you can. BUt that would drag two countries that might not want to go to war at this time in.

New German build.

1911
German Empire
Population: 64 million, Tech level 5, production centers: 31 (Koln 2, Dusseldorf 2, Hamburg 2, Berlin 2, Essen 2, Munich 1, Breslau 1, Leipzig 1, Stettin 1, Frankfurt 1, Strasbourg 1, Chemnitz 1, Hanover 2, Bremen 1, Nuremberg 1, Stuttgart 1, Poznan 1 1, Danzig 1, Kiel 1, Erfurt 1, Halle 1, Dortmund 1, Bonn 1, Saarbrucken 1, Breslau 1), Oil 1 (Hannover 1) Coal 3
Food production: 47
German Empire:
Pacific territories: Resources 1, food production 2, population 2 million (tech level 0)
German East Africa: Resources 3, food production 4, population 3.5 million
German Equatorial Africa: Resources 1, food production 2, population 2 million
German Southwest Africa: Resources 1, food production .5, population .5 million
German Morocco (Rabat, Agadir and Tangier): Resources 2, food production ??, population: .75 million
German China (Shandong province, Tientsin): Resources 6, food production??, population ??
Commerce: 32 shipping units, 2 ocean liner units, 4 Zepellin


124 Production, 34 shipping, 2 Zepellin, 14 colony’s, 2 Denmark-176+36.5 national effort


57.75-maintenance
5 points-intel agency
12 points-II social
8 points-2 DN’s (year 3/3)(Thuringen, Oldenburg)(13.5” main guns instead of 12’s)
12 points-3 DN (year 2/3) (Westfallen, Rheinland, Posen) (13.5” guns instead of 11, like Orion class)
5 points-AHE
5 points-5 CL’s(year ½)
8 points-2 DN’s(Year 1/3)(Kaiser, Friedrich Der Grosse)
10 points-intel
10 points-Loan to Bulgaria
4 points-4 cav corps to inf
8 points-4 arty brigades
additions:
10 points-2 heavy infantry corps(1 Baltic, 1 Finnish)(Starting in May)
8 points-4 replacement corps(Starting in May)
12 points-2 ammunition stockpiles(Starting in May)
4 points-4 observation plane units
12 points-repair 3 DN's
36 left


June:6 points
4 points-2 replacement corps
1 points-mines
1 points-repair DD flottilla


30 left...-3 from China...+1 Minsk,+7Kiev=35 left(for August, October and December builds)
August:12 points+2 Finnish+4Japanese
4 points-2 replacement corps
6 points-1 supply unit
2 points-repair shipping and predread Pommern
2 points-garrison
4 points-Polish inf corp

October:12 points
4 points-2 replacement corps
8 points-2 Polish corps

Finland:5 points spread out over June, August, October and December
1 points-upgrade static corp to heavy
2 points-light infantry division for Murmansk
2 to Germany

Proposed Rules Change: Recession and National Effort

Japan recently went on National Effort simply because he had a depression and therefore would get no growth anyway. While this makes sense numbers-wise, it means that a depression will always be greeted by a National Effort, because no one will get any growth anyway. Therefore, I propose that the effect of a depression should not be "no growth" but "-x percent growth." An example:

Siam is suffering a -5% growth recession (ouch!). Siam can choose to:
A. Go on Cut Spending for no growth;
B. Do Normal Spending for -2% growth; or,
C. Go on National Effort for -4% growth.

It would seem to me that this would provide for a more interesting and varied economic system than a simple "Recession? National effort time!" style of play.

Proposed Rules Change: Recession and National Effort

Japan recently went on National Effort simply because he had a depression and therefore would get no growth anyway. While this makes sense numbers-wise, it means that a depression will always be greeted by a National Effort, because no one will get any growth anyway. Therefore, I propose that the effect of a depression should not be "no growth" but "-x percent growth." An example:

Siam is suffering a -5% growth recession (ouch!). Siam can choose to:
A. Go on Cut Spending for no growth;
B. Do Normal Spending for -2% growth; or,
C. Go on National Effort for -4% growth.

It would seem to me that this would provide for a more interesting and varied economic system than a simple "Recession? National effort time!" style of play.

I believe National Effort in response to a depression would signify the government spending more money to attempt to help the economy, buying more things, etc.

Depression only mentions no growth, not -5% or -3%. I think GB mentioned somewehere that even during the Great Depression the American economy grew somewhat, but it was replacing lost jobs

While I understand your point, I'd like to point out that if we go with the current system the response to a depression will always, always be national effort and I find this boring.

I agree with Middle Snu that while doing Natl Effort is totally acceptable, a little bit of variety would be good, even if the variety come out to bad ideas, since, hell, the 20th Century was all about bad ideas.

Proposed Rules Change: Recession and National Effort

Japan recently went on National Effort simply because he had a depression and therefore would get no growth anyway. While this makes sense numbers-wise, it means that a depression will always be greeted by a National Effort, because no one will get any growth anyway. Therefore, I propose that the effect of a depression should not be "no growth" but "-x percent growth." An example:

Siam is suffering a -5% growth recession (ouch!). Siam can choose to:
A. Go on Cut Spending for no growth;
B. Do Normal Spending for -2% growth; or,
C. Go on National Effort for -4% growth.

It would seem to me that this would provide for a more interesting and varied economic system than a simple "Recession? National effort time!" style of play.

not a bad idea... also Keynesian economics (the idea that government spending to prime the pump is a good thing) isn't around yet anyway

His ideas show up in the 1920s

1910 Serbian Build
Kingdom of Serbia
Population 2.6 million, tech level 4, production centers 1 (Belgrade 1) Coal 1, food production 4
Military is a conscript force
Military Maintenance: 2.0
Regular forces
5 mountain divisions (3 facing Kosovo, 2 facing Macedonia)
Reserve forces
2 infantry corps (Border of Bulgaria)
2 fortress corps (Belgrade)
Level 3 Social Safety for All: .78
(2/10 until tech level 4.5)

1911 Serbian Build
Kingdom of Serbia
Population 2.6 million, tech level 4, production centers 1 (Belgrade 1) Coal 1, food production 4
Military is a conscript force
Military Maintenance: 2.0
Regular forces
5 mountain divisions (3 facing Kosovo, 2 facing Macedonia)
Reserve forces
2 infantry corps (Border of Bulgaria)
2 fortress corps (Belgrade)
Level 3 Social Safety for All: .78
Secret Funding: 1.22
(3/10 until tech level 4.5)

Does Afghanistan have anything that can be used for points? Also, what tech level is it?

Parthini;11814968']Does Afghanistan have anything that can be used for points? Also, what tech level is it?

I assume Afghanistan is tech level 2.

Forgot the Fins have about 5 points to throw around, so they will be building a heavy infantry corp.

Forgot the Fins have about 5 points to throw around, so they will be building a heavy infantry corp.

Thats spread over three turns, so it would take till Nov. to build it, and then it will be ready six months after that.

Thats spread over three turns, so it would take till Nov. to build it, and then it will be ready six months after that.

upgrading doesn't work that way... upgrading an existing unit only takes one turn (infantry to heavy infantry, static to infantry etc)

building a unit from scratch is what takes 6 months

so converting the Finnish static infantry corps to a heavy infantry corps with take 4 months. As it is currently merely sitting in its capital and is not in contact with the enemy, this shouldn't be a problem

I assume Afghanistan is tech level 2.

Afghanistan is tech level 1. If some one spends money for basic infrastructure it will increase to tech 2, and have 2 resources (Opium poppies)

I have a question, what about a war boom? We have depressions here, and there have been a few debates about what that means. But we haven't yet debated on a war boom. Example would be the United States during WWI. Before they went into combat they supplied so many countries and made tons of money. WOuldn't that improve their growth as the war industry exploded and allowed for more investment in other areas as well?

Just a thought.

Afghanistan is tech level 1. If some one spends money for basic infrastructure it will increase to tech 2, and have 2 resources (Opium poppies)

Yumm... opium...

What's the population of Afghanistan so that I can upgrade it?

Also, what are the tech levels of my colonies? I swear I'm going to write it down this time.

The long awaited US Build for 1911.

Not nearly as late as it seems if you have been following its evolution on the front of my thread over the past week, but it is finally locked in for posterity.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11821469&postcount=259

Last changes if you dont feel like checking again. 4 points of aid to Madero government in Mexico and 8 point loan to Russia in August. For the record, the coalition against Russia isnt allowed to complain about this. :p I did loan Austria 11 points in this same year after all...

Well they can always complain, but being able to do anything about it is a whole other matter. So when are our 1912 builds due? I gather next Monday right? Because it says the monthly years ends this Sunday Monday I believe.

A thought I've been tossing around in my head for a while:

Can E20 nations go into debt (i.e. spend money they don't have) on builds? In my experience, there's often a project that would be finished if I could spend just a few extra points on it, but I can't since I've already maxed out my budget. After all, nations in the real world spend money they don't have all the time. For example:

Nation X Build
Total Income: 10 points
Social Services (Level II): 2 points
Military Maintenance: 3 points
Infrastructure Improvement: 3 points (year 1 of 3)
1 Shipping Unit: 3 points

Total Spent: 11 points
Surplus: n/a
Deficit: -1.0 points

Nation X spent 11 points, but since their budget was only 10 points, they're now in debt that one point. That can either be paid off the next year, or the debt accumulates until it begins to effect the economy (I'm not sure how that would work in game terms), and would have to have at least part of it paid off.

Am I making sense with this idea?

I like that idea. It happened all the time in RL. But I think there should be limits on how far you can go into debt and there should be serious penalties for not paying it back (not just lost growth or something like that). High debt could also contribute to anti-government feelings, meaning leaders of small or unstable countries might not want to mess with that too much while stable nations like the US could do it but risk going into a recession if they borrow too much. I'm not sure how exactly federal debt works in command economies, though.

Well it would work, but yeah a limit. Like it can be only 5% of your total incoming income or something. And then you pay it back the next year or start having problems.

A thought I've been tossing around in my head for a while:

Can E20 nations go into debt (i.e. spend money they don't have) on builds? In my experience, there's often a project that would be finished if I could spend just a few extra points on it, but I can't since I've already maxed out my budget. After all, nations in the real world spend money they don't have all the time. For example:



Nation X spent 11 points, but since their budget was only 10 points, they're now in debt that one point. That can either be paid off the next year, or the debt accumulates until it begins to effect the economy (I'm not sure how that would work in game terms), and would have to have at least part of it paid off.

Am I making sense with this idea?

National Effort covers deficit spending I think, unless you were to propose an additional add-on to the game

I think it's a proposed add on.

A thought I've been tossing around in my head for a while:

Can E20 nations go into debt (i.e. spend money they don't have) on builds? In my experience, there's often a project that would be finished if I could spend just a few extra points on it, but I can't since I've already maxed out my budget. After all, nations in the real world spend money they don't have all the time. For example:



Nation X spent 11 points, but since their budget was only 10 points, they're now in debt that one point. That can either be paid off the next year, or the debt accumulates until it begins to effect the economy (I'm not sure how that would work in game terms), and would have to have at least part of it paid off.

Am I making sense with this idea?


I have debated trying to add that in a few times and cannot come up with an easy way to make it both realistic or easy to deal with

Which is why I went with the growth penalties for National Effort and Wartime spending etc

Aussie Build 1912 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11843409&postcount=25)

Important things to note:

1 GP Invested in Papua
22 Production given to New Zealand to assist in construction of a production center over existing resource

About debt: I think if you are going to go over budget you should find someone to borrow from (not sure if the WB exist atm). For every one point of debt you have accumilated, you should be penalised by lets say, around 0.05 to 0.1 growth per point - this would represent your interest payments. Similarly, whomever you borrowed from receives that penalty as a bonus to their growth.

This would continue until the debt is paid off.

Danish 1912 Build

population:2.8
Production Centre: 2 (Copenhagen 2)
Resources: 5 (Copenhagen 4, Greenland 1)
Commerce: 2
Food: 1 (From 5 extra)

Total Points:16

Military Upkeep: 1.6
Social Speeding lvl3: .84
Coal From US: 1

Germany: 1 (I presume that the 2nd production centre reduces the reliance on German economy by 1)
Britain for DreadNought: 4 (2/3)
Cruise Liner: 3 (1/2)
Formation of Intelligence Agency: 4.5

Excess: .06 (International Red Cross)
Growth: (15 - 2.44) * 3% = .377
Total Growth: 0.787

1912 Serbian Build
Kingdom of Serbia
Population 2.6 million, tech level 4, production centers 1 (Belgrade 1) Coal 1, food production 4
Market Economy National Effort

Military is a conscript force
Military Maintenance: 2.0
Regular forces
4 mountain divisions (2 facing Kosovo, 2 facing Macedonia)
Reserve forces
2 infantry corps (Border of Bulgaria)
2 fortress corps (Belgrade)
1 mountain division

Level 3 Social Safety for All: .78
Secret Funding: .22
Training of mountain division: 2
Training of reserve militia corps: 1
(4/10 until tech level 4.5)

I will post my builds soon as I can find the links to check it out.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=497212

Bulgarian Build
1912:
Population 4 million
Tech level 4

Energy:
Coal 1

Income:
Production centers 6 <National Effort>,
Resources 5 (Sofia 5)
Food production 4.8 (out of 6)
From Greece: 1 point (Year 3 out of 3)
Shipping: 2 points

Total: 21 points

Expenses:
Maintenance: 7.85 points
Social Services: 0.8 points

Feb 1912: 2.06 points:
1 Observation Aircraft: 1 points
2 Replacement Divisions: 1 point
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.06

Apr 1912: 2.06 points
1 Replacement Corps: 2 points
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.06

June 1912: 2.06
1 Replacement Corps: 2 points
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.06

Aug 1912: 2.06
2 Replacement Divisions: 1 point
Aid to the International Red Cross: 1.06

Oct 1912: 2.06
1 Replacement Corps: 2 points
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.06

Dec 1912: 2.06
1 Replacement Corps: 2 points
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.06

Wow, 440,000 soldiers just in replacement services... wow thats a big part of your military now isn't it?

Raises the question if he believes he's going to need them that much. I mean it really seems to be a major part of his stuff.

Kingdom of Norway's 1912 Budget
Population: 2.3 million
Tech level: 4

Income: 14.5
Production centers: 1 (Stavanger 1)
Resources: 5 (Stavanger 5)
Food production: 9
Commerce: 4 shipping unit
Cruise Ship Line: .5


Market Economy (Normal): Growth 3%
Growth: .44
Total Growth: .72

Expenditures
Military maintenance: 3.15
Level 3 social spending: .7
Repayment of Loan from USA (1.5 of 11.5 Points): 3.5
Shipping Unit construction (Year 1 of 1): 3
Shipping Unit construction (Year 1 of 1): 3
Research into Improved Shipping: .15
Aid to International Red Cross: 1

Canada Build

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11848386&postcount=34

NPC nations (to be updated over the course of the game)

NPC builds 1911-12
1911 Belgium
population 7.5 million, tech level 5, production centers: 3 (Brussels 1, Leige 1, Antwerp 1) food production 10, commerce 1 shipping unit, colonial empire: Belgian Congo 6, food production 5, colonial population 5 million
1911 spending: production cut spending: 6 + 7 = 13
military and social spending maintenance: 6.5, growth 6% (add new production center 1914), transportation upgrades to Congo 6.5 points (13 of 30 now spent)
military forces: Home – fortress at Antwerp and Leige, 1 infantry corps, 2 reserve infantry corps (all 3 are conscript), 1 light infantry division, 1 cavalry division, 1 tech 5 motor torpedo boat flotilla,
colonial forces: 1 garrison unit, 1 river boat flotilla in Congo
1912 spending: cut spending 6+7=13
military and social spending maintenance 6.5
transportation upgrades to Congo 6.5 points (19.5 of 30 now spent)

1911 Netherlands
Population 6 million, tech level 5, production centers 5 (Rotterdam 3, Amsterdam 2) food production: 22
colonial Empire
Dutch East Indies 12 + 4 oil, food production 50, population 47 million
Dutch Caribbean 1 resource (food and population included in Dutch figures)
Commerce: 3 shipping units, 1 liner unit (Netherlands may draw from Colonial population to man shipping)
budget: 20 + 3.5 + 16 + 1 + 3.5 = 44 points (peacetime spending)
military and home (level 3) and colonial (level 1) social services maintenance 15.8
continue construction 4 battle cruisers (Tromp, De Ruyter, Witte de With, William of Orange),(year 2 of 3) 16 points 4 light cruisers (Java, Sumatra, Aruba, Borneo) (year 2 of 2) 4 points, improvements to transportation in DEI 5 points (year 2 of 6), fortress Holland (hex due east of Rotterdam) 1 point, (year 1 of 5), 1 Coast defense unit for Batavia (DEI) 3 points
1912 spending normal peacetime) 44 points
military and home (level 3) and colonial (level 1) social services maintenance 15.7 points, continue construction of 4 battlecruisers (year 3 of 3) 16 points, improvements to transportation in DEI 9 points (14 of 30 points spent), fortress Holland construction (year 2 of 5) 1 point, 1 shipping unit 3 points

1912 current military: 4 Light cruisers, 2 destroyer flotillas, 1 submarine flotilla (tech level 5 ships) plus 5 laid up protected cruisers (tech level 4.5 ships), + 1 naval yard, 2 naval bases, while army still consists of 4 garrison units (1 home, 3 colonial), 1 light infantry brigade + 1 coast defense fortress unit (colonial) + 1 reserve infantry corps

1911 Imperial China
controls provinces of Shaanxi, Shanxi, southwestern Inner Mongolia, Langchow, Ningxia, Gangsu, Shandong, and Qinghai
Resources: 20 (Xian 6, Langchow 6, Lanchow 6, Xining 2) other major cities: Tsingtao, Taiyuan, Tsinan, Chengchow, Golmul, population 150 million, food production 155
Military forces: (maintenance: 3.5 points, all are equipped at tech level 5 and are a conscript force)
Budget: 1911 20 + 15 points Russian aid: military maintenance 3.5 points, transportation improvements 13 points (year 1 of 3), upgrade 8 militia corps to reserve infantry corps 16 points, level 1 social services to 25 million people (urban populations) 2.5 points
budget: 1912 20 + 5 points Russian aid: military maintenance 3.7 points, transportation improvements 13 points (year 2 of 3), level 1 social services to 30 million people (urban populations) 3 points, combat maintenance level for 6 static infantry corps, 2 militia corps, 1 light division 4 points, special activities 1.3 points

current military forces 1912: 2 infantry corps, 8 reserve infantry corps, 4 militia corps, 20 light infantry divisions (2 militia corps, 1 light infantry division is in Russia)

Peru 1911
Population 4 million, tech level 4, production centers 2 (Lima), resources 4 (Lima, 3 to US), 1 shipping unit, food production 5
1911 budget: 8 + 3 + 1 = 12 points (regular spending)
military forces (volunteer): 2 fortress divisions, 1 light infantry division, 1 tech level 5 escort flotilla (coast guard), 1 tech level 5 gunboat flotilla (1.10 points)
level 2 social services: .8 points, build naval base 6 points, build reserve infantry corps 2 points, plus 2 points for contingency budget
1912 Peru is a PC country (and can do its own builds)

Republic of Mexico
Population 15 million, tech level 3, production centers 1 (Mexico City), resources 11 (Chihuahua 6, Leon 5), Oil 2 (Yucatan 2) food production 35
Mexico conscript force
Regulars
3 garrison units (Mexico City, Tampico, Vera Cruz), 3 cavalry divisions (Chihuahua, Monterrey, Leon)
Reserves
20 militia infantry divisions, 3 militia cavalry divisions
1909 builds (cut spending) (budget 19) level 1 social services 1.5, military maintenance 7.25, corruption penalty 2.25, production center construction (Leon year 1 of 3) 8 points
1910 as above
1911 as above
1912 peacetime spending 25 points, military maintenance (Mexico has 2 production centers now), military maintenance 7.5, corruption penalty 6.5, level 2 social services 3 points, upgrade 3 garrison divisions to light infantry divisions, 3 points, convert 5 militia infantry divisions to reserve light infantry divisions 5 points


Lack significant economies in game terms or spend entire budget on domestic concerns (and will be added should it be needed)
Switzerland
New Zealand
Paraguay
Ecuador
Venezuela
Colombia
Uruguay
Bolivia
Nicaruaga
Haiti
Dominican Republic
Guatemala
Honduras
Costa Rica
El Salvador
Liberia

note that Peru is now a PC nation and does its own builds for 1912
Netherlands can as well, although suggest finishing up with the projects indicated

IC:

1912

Nationalist China (Republic of China)
Economic and military data as of Jan, 1 1912
KMT China (Republic of China)
Resource points
Changsha 4, Kwieyang 6, Chengtu 6, Chungking 12,
Special Resources:
3 Coal
Production Centers:
2 at Changsha
population under KMT control 170 million
food production 208
Excess food sales: 7.6-8 points

Aid Column-

Missionary aid to KMT- 1pt

Overseas Chinese aid to KMT- 1pt

Aid from UK-5pts

Aid from USA-11.25 points

Market Economy Peacetime. Normal income, growth 3%

Total Income: 32 (rounded, factoring in Aid, growth post mil/social spending) 62.25

other major cities:
Nanking, Hangchow, Hangchow, Nanning,

KMT Army
Guangdong Army-based in Guangzhou
3 garrison units
Guangxi Army-based in Nanning
1 garrison unit
Hunan Army-based in Changsha
2 garrison units
Jiangxi Army-based in Nanchang
3 garrison units
Zhejiang Army-based in Hangzhou
3 garrison units
Fujian Army--currently in Jiangxi Province
1 garrison unit
Sichuan Army
3 garrison units
(2 at Chengdu, 1 at Chungking)
5 light infantry divisions (all tech level 5)
Guazhou Army--based in Guiyang
3 garrison units .75, upgrade to 5 garrison units (4 points)

1st Army--New Model Army (currently in Jiangxi)
4 Regular Infantry corps (plus one Portuguese Corps as advisors)
1 Light infantry unit
1 militia unit
1 cavalry division (technically from Sichuan, but attached to NMA)

2nd Army--Republican Guard (Guangdong)
4 infantry corps--at Guangzhou
2 militia unit--at Guangzhou

Ministry of State Security Special Republican Peacekeeping Force--
1 Police Unit-.25

Republican Navy-

Matenance=12 rounded

Social Spending=Level 1-17 pts

5 points on MSS training, equipment

Points lost to various acts of palm-greasing and "special favors" -2.25 points

Growth= .78 (plus last year's makes .97)

Builds-

2 DD2, and 6 CLs from USA-14pts
12 pts-2 BCs from USA
4 pts for a Supply Unit
2 points for two light infantry brigades.

Japanese Empire 1912 Builds
Population: 67
Production Centers: 30x6=180
Shipping: 22
Resources: 40 (6 from food)
Coal: 9
Total: 251
Tech Level: 5
Growth: 0%

Military Maintenance: 30
5 Infantry Corps
3 Cavalry Division
1 Light Infantry Division (Guards)
15 Reserve Infantry Corps
1 Light Infantry Brigade (Special Naval Landing Force)
2 HQ units
1 Theater Supply Unit
7 Garrisons
11 Fortress Corps
2 Fortresses

2 Dreadnoughts
2 Battlecruisers
8 Armored Cruisers
10 Light Cruisers
3 torpedo boat flotillas
1 Transport Group
14 Battleships
12 Protected Cruisers
3 Destroyer Squadrons
Intelligence Agency

Naval Yards
Kure, Yokosuka, Kobe, Nagasaki,
Naval bases
Hiroshima, Yokohoma, Pusan (Korea), Tainan (Formosa), Port Arthur (Manchuria)

Level 2 Social Safety for Japan and Korea: 12
Level 2 Social Safety for Manchuria: 2
Level 1 Social Services for China: 7
Left: 200

Buy:
4 Dreadnoughts (3/3) (Germany): 16
Operation China: 3
Production Center in Seoul (3/24): 5
2 Battlecruisers (2/3): 0 (production halted)
5 Marine Brigades: 10
Production Center in Manchuria (0/24): 5
Upgrade SNLF to Marines: 0
Destroyer Unit: 6
8 Heavy Infantry Corps: 40
2 Artillery Divisions: 16
2 Ammunition Stockpiles: 12
4 Supply Units: 16
2 Motorized HQ’s: 20
10 Motorized Brigades: 10
5 Garrison Units: 10
4 Replacement Corps: 8
1 Observation Plane Unit: 1
2 Battlecruiser from Britain: 18
1 Battlecruiser from britain: 2 (2/9
0 left (2 already subtracted from Chinese losses)

Kingdom of Portugal 1912 Build
Population: 5.9 million (Colonial population: 8 million)
Tech level: 4 (Colonial Tech level: 4)
Government: Constitutional Monarchy
Economy: Market [Peace time Economy {3% Growth}]

Economic Budget: 42 (Production Centres (6)[20]: Lisbon 2, Viseu 2, Porto 1. Resources [11]: Angola 5, Mozambique 6. Commerce [7]: 7x Shipping Unit (3,500,000 tons) 7. Growth [4] 1 PC Growth)

Domestic Spending:

Level 3 Social Services (Portugal)- 1.5 points

Level 3 Social Sevices (Colonies)- 3 Points

Production Centre at Mozambique 14/24- 14 points

Production Centre at Angola 24/24- 6 points

Foreign Spending:

1 point to Importing Coal and Oil

Military Spending:

2x Armoured Cruiser from Britain 6/12- 6 points

1x Battle Cruiser from Britain 4/12- 4 points

1x Destroyer flotilla 2/6- 2 points

Maintenace:
-Navy-
Armoured Cruiser-'Rainha Dona Amelia' (1901) .25 points,
Armoured Cruiser- 'Estrago Durável' (1911) .25 points
Light Cruiser-'Seita De Carga' (1907) .10 points,
Light Cruiser-'Lançasusto' (1907) .10 points,
Light Cruiser-'Tempestade Inverno' (1907) .10 points,
Light Cruiser-'Decaiu Pacifista' (1907) .10 points,
Gunboat Flotilla- 'Teimoso'(1909) .10 points,
3 Naval Bases (Loanda, Lisbon, Macau) 1.5 points,
Sub Total: 2.5 points

-Army-
3 Garrison Units .75 points,
2 Regular Infantry Corps 1 point,
1 Mountain Infantry Division .10 points,
1 Cavalry Division .25 points,
Sub Total: 2.1 points

Total: 4.6 points


Population: 14
Food production: 17
Surplus/Defecit: +3

Aussie Build 1912 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11843409&postcount=25)

Important things to note:

1 GP Invested in Papua
22 Production given to New Zealand to assist in construction of a production center over existing resource

What effect does my foreign spending have GB?

What effect does my foreign spending have GB?

should get NZ a production center for 1913, which means at that point I will have you run the NZ builds and economy.

spending 1 point on Papau makes Port Morseby a minor port

since that area is tech level 1, it has a long way to go before spending money even has an effect beyond creating basic transportation infrastructure

remember Australia only really controls the Southeast side of Papau at this point, Germany has the Northeast, and the Dutch the western half of the island

Neat, and I figured as much with Papua... don't suppose I can 'upgrade' the country in a similar fashion as NZ can I? Also, since Port Morseby is a port now does this mean I can station ships there now?

Neat, and I figured as much with Papua... don't suppose I can 'upgrade' the country in a similar fashion as NZ can I? Also, since Port Morseby is a port now does this mean I can station ships there now?

need a naval base for that.. not a major port as not a major city

the actual real population of New Guinea isn't discovered until late in the 20th century as its so inaccessable and inhospitable to Whites that only the coastal areas see much (and little of that) contact with the outside world

your government thinks its mostly wilderness with a few thousand islanders,

later on in the century its discovered over 2 million people live in central New Guinea in the highlands...and its one of the oldest agricultural centers on Earth

real aerial survey work and development in New Guinea and a lot of Africa just isn't possible until tech level 7 medicine and aerial photography come along

Though in truth New Guinea is still wilderness mostly. I mean seriously, Port Moresby is almost ten times the size it was in the 1940's and it's still tiny.

Bulgarian Build
1912:
Population 4 million
Tech level 4

Energy:
Coal 1

Income:
Production centers 6 <National Effort>,
Resources 5 (Sofia 5)
Food production 4.8 (out of 6)
From Greece: 1 point (Year 3 out of 3)
Shipping: 2 points

Total: 21 points

Expenses:
Maintenance: 7.85 points
Social Services: 0.8 points

Feb 1912: 2.06 points:
Upgrade Infantry Corps to Heavy Infantry Corps: 1 points
1 Static Infantry Corps: 1 point out of 3
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.06

Apr 1912: 2.06 points
1 Static Infantry Corps: 2 points
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.06

June 1912: 2.06
3 Milita Divisions: 1.5 point
1 Militia Brigade: 0.25
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.31

Aug 1912: 2.06
1 Replacement Corps: 2 points
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.06

Oct 1912: 2.06
Upgrade 2 Static Infantry Corps to Infantry Corps: 2 points
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.06

Dec 1912: 2.06
Upgrade 2 Static Infantry Corps to Infantry Corps: 2 point
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.06

What exactly will it take to build up the Colombian economy and remove any corruption penalties? For instance, is the infrastructure good enough to build a production center?

And is Colombia the best choice, or Venezuela? I just need an ally in northern South America. I'm not choosing Ecuador since I'm trying to get on Peru's good side.

Greece announces it is to suspend the payment of the one point to Bulgaria until Bulgaria is neutral. Bulgarian aggression causes the Greeks much bother, and the point will be used to secure Greek independance.

What exactly will it take to build up the Colombian economy and remove any corruption penalties? For instance, is the infrastructure good enough to build a production center?

And is Colombia the best choice, or Venezuela? I just need an ally in northern South America. I'm not choosing Ecuador since I'm trying to get on Peru's good side.

ooc
you will probably have to live with the corruption penalties because of the social flaws endemic in those 2 societies. At least until level 2 or better social services have been around long enough for either nation to reach tech 5

gets easier to eliminate corruption then because more wealth available and spread more broadly at that point, or at least reduce it to the point where its not a drag on the economy and government revenues.

I won't advise you on which country to assist, both have their merits.

builds edited slightly as a result of Chinese riots and British sale of BC's

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11862993&postcount=251

British 1912 Build

Please note the status of Loans from the US to other countries:

Austria-Hungary:
--11 points (1911)
---12 points to return (2 points a year starting 1912)

Russia:
--38 points in loans (1911 and 1912)
---45.5 points to return
--48 points for BCs (1911)
---48 points to return
Total = 93.5 points to return (in stages after end of war)

Norway:
--11.5 points (1909)
---6.5 points to return (in installments as able)

Ottoman Empire:
--10 points (1912)
---12.5 points to return (in stages after end of war)

If there are any errors or I have missed your country please let me know--I dont want to be screwing anybody accidently.

US Policy for Loans to warring powers:
--No official cap on amounts loaned out
--Loans may either be paid back during the war for 10% interest or after the war for 25% interest (with the caveat below)
--All loans should be paid back by 1925 or 10 years after the cessation of hostilities, whichever comes first. However, loans that take longer than 5 years (or past 1920, whichever comes first) will have their interest rates on the remaining amount increased to 50%

Note that the US still hands out aid packages to smaller countries. In addition, nations who are not at war may use the "10% interest pay immediately plan."

You're correct for Norway. I've paid 5 of those points and I really am paying as I can- expect payment to be finalized in the next three or four years. About when I said you'd probably be paid back, come to think of it...

Note: Under Gómez's dictatorship Venezuela has a police unit and a newly professionalized army with a centralized command structure.

Does the rubber from Indochina increase in value since Argentina is blockading Brazil?

Builds edited to account for increase in US aid.

Builds edited to account for increase in US aid.

by the way, corruption in your country is growing (all those American dollars are a big temptation)

reduce that American aid by 25% this year

(corruption in the KMT and Republic of China government was endemic until it got kicked out of China and exiled to Taiwan)

Does the rubber from Indochina increase in value since Argentina is blockading Brazil?

not noticably because Malaysian rubber has a bigger share of the market and the Brazilian rubber industry is already facing serious competition now historically

which is going to be long term painful to Brazil

Note: Under Gómez's dictatorship Venezuela has a police unit and a newly professionalized army with a centralized command structure.

going to be hard to make him no longer be President for Life for quit some time

The first economic effects of the Brazilian blockade occur... Nigeria and Colombia gains an extra point (coffee), as do Malaysia and French Indochina (rubber)

economic bonus only for duration of the blockade of Brazil caused by price increases
Galveston Bay is online now Report Post Edit/Delete Message

Two questions:

1. Since the Rio Plata War started later in the year, do I still get all the normal benefits of National Effort if I go into it? (for instance, will I get all the production points from each production center?)

2. This is actually for the military thread but will the ABC powers (if Chile ever comes around) get the units that the European warring nations have avaliable or is that Tech Level 5 only?

Two questions:

1. Since the Rio Plata War started later in the year, do I still get all the normal benefits of National Effort if I go into it? (for instance, will I get all the production points from each production center?)

2. This is actually for the military thread but will the ABC powers (if Chile ever comes around) get the units that the European warring nations have avaliable or is that Tech Level 5 only?

yes, you can go to national effort for 1912

due to the blockade, you cannot build heavy divisions (can't get the heavy artillery) but you can build any other infantry type unit you want. You cannot build aircraft units or mechanized / motorized units (due to the blockade)

Argentina could, if someone loaned or gave them some money (as they aren't under blockade)

1912 Siamese Economics-Updated
2 production center, 28 food production, 4 resources
Tech Level 4
8 million population
Cut spending for 4 production+4 food+4 resources+2 shipping=14 points, then national effort in June for 4 extra points, and a loan from the USA for 6 points

Military Upkeep
Regulars:
2 Infantry corps-1
2 garrison-.5
1 coast defense garrison-.5
1 supply corps-.5
Reserves
5 2nd line infantry corps-1.25
3 reserve mountain infantry divisions-.3
Navy:
1 PT flotilla-.1
1 destroyer flotilla-.25
Level II Social Spending-1.4
Total: 5.8, 9.2 remains

2 light infantry divisions-2
2 light infantry brigades-2
Upgrade 3 light infantry to light infantry-3
Observation planes-1
3 CL-3
1 infantry corps-4
Aid to Indochina-4

1912 Siamese Economics-Updated
2 production center, 28 food production, 4 resources
Tech Level 4

Total: 5.8, 9.2 remains

1 light infantry-2
Upgrade 3 light infantry to light infantry-3
Observation planes-1
3 CL-3

Four points gained from National Effort, but kept in reserve.

Light Cruisers are a Tech Level 5 warship. You can buy them from other nations, but you can't build them.

Bulgarian Build
1912:
Population 4 million
Tech level 4

Energy:
Coal 1

Income:
Production centers 6 <National Effort>,
Resources 5 (Sofia 5)
Food production 4.8 (out of 6)
From Greece: 1 point (Year 3 out of 3)
Shipping: 2 points

Total: 21 points

Expenses:
Maintenance: 7.85 points
Social Services: 0.8 points

Feb 1912: 2.06 points:
Upgrade Infantry Corps to Heavy Infantry Corps: 1 points
1 Static Infantry Corps: 1 point out of 3
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.06

Apr 1912: 2.06 points
1 Static Infantry Corps: 2 points
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.06

June 1912: 2.06
3 Milita Divisions: 1.5 point
1 Militia Brigade: 0.25
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.31

Aug 1912: 2.06
1 Replacement Corps: 2 points
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.06

Oct 1912: 2.06
Upgrade 2 Static Infantry Corps to Infantry Corps: 2 points
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.06

Dec 1912: 2.06
Upgrade 2 Static Infantry Corps to Infantry Corps: 2 point
Aid to the International Red Cross: 0.06

You might want to redo this considering what I posted below it.

Light Cruisers are a Tech Level 5 warship. You can buy them from other nations, but you can't build them.

Actually, this should probably be written down in his build, but per a treaty several years ago, Siam has permission to build light vessels (cruisers and destroyers) in US shipyards if they pay the costs.

Which of course means I fully expect French pressure any day now to get Siam to stop doing that...

Actually, Siam has permission to buy light ships from American shipyards and any ship at all from British shipyards. Siam is also getting light weapons from Portugal and Britain and has (unless the USA pulled advisors out) both British and American military advisors.

All of which means that the Army and Navy are equipped with very modern weapons indeed.

I have a question about Mexico. How do I stop corruption penalty?

Kingdom of Norway's Prospective 1913 Budget
Population: 2.3 million
Tech level: 4

Income: 26.5
Production centers: 2 (Stavanger 2)
Resources: 4 (Stavanger 4)
Food production: 9 (2 points instead of 1)
Commerce: 6 shipping unit (x2)
Cruise Ship Line: .5


Market Economy (Normal): Growth 3%
Growth: .59
Total Growth: .31

Expenditures
Military maintenance: 3.15
Level 3 social spending: .7
Repayment of Loan from USA (5 of 11.5 Points): 5.5
Aid to International Red Cross: 2.65
Infrastructure improvements (Year 1 of 3): .5
War Loans: 8 (To Germany and Siam)
Payment to Russia: 4
Resource exploration (Svalbard and other areas that would probably have coal): 2

I have a suggestion on the subject of technological development. It involes two new research group types. These might help normalise tecnological research in game.

The first of these are:

Theoretical Research Institutes

Description
Theoretical reseach instiute funding represents government grants to private research laborotries and universities. These institutions spend all their time pondering the mysteries of the universe in every subject imgainable from quantum physics, to why toast always lands butter side down and the ineffable will of Bob. Research institutes focus on theoretical work and as such are extemely ineffcient on the turnover of useful things. However every once in a wihle they will discover something useful like jet engines, automatic toast catchers or cooler ways to blow things up.

Requirements:
Must be at least Tech level 4 and Must have at least Level III social services (Need universities).
Some countries will already have research institues (E.g. Germany, Britain, USA)

Cost:
The base cost is ten points to get all the equipment and facilities need for research (Comfy leather chairs and snow globes etc).
The Research institutes also need regular funding which increases as you go up in tech level.
So:
at tech level 4 funding is 3 points a year
at tech level 5 funding is 6 points a year
at tech level 6 funding is 9 points a year
at tech level 7 funding is 18 points a year
at tech level 8 funding is 36 points a year
at tech level 9 funding is 72 points a year
and so on

This is due to the fact that over time research institutes become increasngly more useful and therefore increasingly more expensive to run. It also has the side effect that only the most advanced and richest countries can afford them.
Extra funding can be put into institues and this will generally be beneficial, but only to a certain extent.

In-game benefits:
Most of the time Reseach institutes will sit around sucking up your hard earned economic points and giving you nothing in return. However they are vital for staying in the technological race.
Research Institutes will occasionally (i.e decided by a tech mod) come up with a major breakthrough such as jet engines, microchip computers or RADAR. These breakthroughs will allow for additional development to be made into the technology.
An example technological development programs will look:
Jet Engines- Requires: Jet research breakthrough and tech level six. Cost:12 points. Time: Three years.
Research institutes are needed for any kind of nuclear research to be undertaken.

An example of how this would work is:

In 1939 Portugal is tech level 6, with a research institute program and paying 9 points a year in funding and 2 points a year to secue research. The tech mod has rolled for Portugal to get a breakthrough this year and rolls Jet engines.
Portugal can now start practical development of the jet engine by paying an amount of points over so many years (exact figures to be decided by GB and/or tech mod). For this example lets say 12 points over three years.
Portugal pays this and can then build jet engines in 1942.
However in 1940 a Spanish spy managed to infiltrate the jet research institue and steal the theoretical research and the spanish also start development of jet engines and in 1943 Spain can build jet engines too.

Certain countries like Britain and Germany would get benefits in different fields of research and so would be more likely to get a breakthrough in that area.
Research institutes can be made to focus on different areas wich will make a breakthrough more likely in that area but less likely in others.
Continued focused research over ten years will yield a permament bonus in that area bu will take away a bonus in an other area if any.
This would probably involve some big chart for the tech mod having to be drawn up with notes for the modifiers for each country.

Sometimes you researcher will ask you for an extra special peice of equipment, such as a five mile wide supercollider, a new radio telescope observatory or a scientific research satellite network. If you indulge them and fork out the dough for these shiny toys you will get a temporary bonus research modifier.

Secruity:
Research intitutes are not normally the most secure places in the world and researchers eager to gain praise in the scientifc community will spread their ideas around the world within a year in peactime. This will mean every one can start the devlopmental reseach that you found out only a year after you. Even in wartime researchers will leave many important documents just lying around, easy for enemy spies to pick up.
To combat this you may pay 2 points extra per year to keep your research secure, however it will get out eventually no matter what security you have.
With advent of global mass communication networks (E.g the internet) keeping reseach secure becomes even harder and you must pay 4 points to keep it safe.

Sharing Research:
Research breakthroughs may be shared between nations (developmental work must always be done seperately).
Creating free infomation a research pacts with other countries will give modifiers to all countries involved as researchers from different countries will meet, teach each other rude jokes in foeign languages, drink copious amounts of alcohol and steal each others research generaly causing productivity to rise.


The second groups is:

Design Bureaus

Description
Design bureaus are groups of peoplae who are usually attached to manufacturing companies. Unlike theoretical research institutes, design bureaus are very productive, they design new machines for your military, such as planes, tanks and guns. To be able to manufacture your own eqiupment you must have a design bureau that specialises in that field.
So to make infantry units you must have a design bureau that makes rifles and artillery, to make armoured units you need a design bureau that makes tanks and so on.
Of course these weapons can be imported from other contries, negating the need for design bureaus for some countries, but to design your own weapons you need them.
Sometimes design bureaus come into exsistence of their own accord, but most of the time they are set up by the government. Most of the technologically advanced countries already have design bureaus.

Requirements:
To have a design bureau you need to have a production centre that the bureau is tied to. no more than two thirds of you production centres may be tied to design bureaus.
If a production centre that is tied to a design bureau is destroyed or damaged that design bureau stops working untill it is tied to another production centre and all the designs it is currently working on are lost. A design bureau can be tied to up to ten production centres

Cost:
A design bureau costs 10 points to set up, however they do not have a maintenance cost.
(As said above quite a few countries already have design bureaus)

In-game benefits:
Design bureaus will spend all their time figuring out how to build bigger and better machines of destruction. Every so often they will come up with a new one and you will have the option of using it in your armed forces or not.
What your design bureaus come up with is based somewhat on historical precedence and is ultimately decided by a tech mod.
Your design bureaus can be told to come up with something by the government and within a space of time they will come up with something. (Be it good or not) Each design bureau can only focus on one area; Aircraft, Armour* or Armament* (Rifles, machineguns, rocket launchers, artillery, etc). (Missiles could be a fourth)


An example of how it all works is:
(carrying on from the last example for theoretical research)

In 1942 after having made a theoretical research breakthrough and three years of development Portugal can now build jet engines, the Portuguese government issues a design contract to three of its design bureaus that focus on aircraft to design a jet fighter.
The three design bureaus are; NPA, TAW and ACR each one sets about designing a fighter. The tech mod tells the player how long each design will take to finish, in this case NPA 24 months, TAW 22 months and ACR 19 months.
However the following year in 1943 the production centre tied to the ACR design bureau is bombed and destroyed. Putting ACR out of the running as all of its design work was lost. A production centre tied to NPA is also bombed and destroyed, however NPA was tied to two production centres and so it can carry on. At the end of 1944 both bureaus have completed their design and they are presented to the government which can choose which one it wants to use. The Portuguese government chooses the TAW fighter which has higher speed and range which was what they were looking for.
A unit of fighters takes 6 months to build and so in the summer of 1945 the first units of TAW Mk.1 Falcão jet fighters enter service with the Portuguese Airforce.
(Just as in real life there will sometimes be delays to design work and the tech mod will roll for these and tell you of developments, the larger and more inovative the project the higher chance for delays)

Secruity:
Design bureaus are much more secure places than research institutes, as the designers and engineers will want to avoid peple stealing their designs.
However enemy spies will still be able to infiltrate them and in wartime extra security might be needed. This costs .10 points per design bureau, which is raised to .25 points when mass commnication media such as the internet comes about.
Remember no matter how good your security is there is always a chance someone might succeed.

Sharing Designs:
Designs can be shared between countries either for free or for money as part of trade.
You can give the ability for design bureaus in other countries to lisence build your design.

*These just need to be designed and chosen, the purchase cost for the equipment comes embedded within the cost of the unit. Better equipment gives modifiers in combat.

May I suggest that if techs are to be shared a maximum limit be placed on the amount and a relative fee be placed for their implementation?

That seems a little complicated to do though? And don't inventions sometimes just come from pure advancement. I'd agree this has merit, but as the ONLY way to get inventions, I see it as limiting.

Both of these ideas are rather complicated, though I am actually a pretty big fan of Theoretical Research Institutes. It is evident that both plans had a lot of thought put into them, and though either one would work, I think assigning firms to all our industrial centers to make Design Bureaus works is a little bit less than feasable for the sort of gameplay we are talking about.

In my view, adding another element to an already complex game is unnecessary. Design Bureaus especially seem like a waste of space, because the rules for them are quite complicated, and the level of realism/enjoyable gameplay seems very minimal.

Both of these ideas are rather complicated, though I am actually a pretty big fan of Theoretical Research Institutes. It is evident that both plans had a lot of thought put into them, and though either one would work, I think assigning firms to all our industrial centers to make Design Bureaus works is a little bit less than feasable for the sort of gameplay we are talking about.

Really? I actually though Design Bureaus were the more workable of the two.
They don't require a huge table of information and lots of dice rolls. Just some research for dates. Not every production centre will have a Design Bureau (there is actualy a limit to how many of your production centres can be tied to design Bureaus), some countries may not even have one Design Bureau and lots of production centres.
The complexity of Design Bureaus for the player would be limited to having a list of Bureaus on their N/D thread along with how many production centres are tied to them no more. Ill give you an example.

In 1929 Portugal as no design Bureaus that design aircraft so the government deciding to rectify this spends 10 points to set up a design Bereau called the Companhia Espacial Real (CER). It ties the CER to two production centres, one in Lisbon and one in Porto. Now over time the CER will begin designing aircraft.

All the real work would be done by a technology mod who figures out dates and such.

That seems a little complicated to do though? And don't inventions sometimes just come from pure advancement. I'd agree this has merit, but as the ONLY way to get inventions, I see it as limiting.

Pure advancement? Pray tell what exactly is pure advancement?


May I suggest that if techs are to be shared a maximum limit be placed on the amount and a relative fee be placed for their implementation?

When sharing techs through trade the two trading countries would decide on what the give and take for it is.
Under these rules anyone who got their hands on some theoretical work would still have to pay the price needed to develop their own working prototypes. This is refered to as developmental work.

In my view, adding another element to an already complex game is unnecessary. Design Bureaus especially seem like a waste of space, because the rules for them are quite complicated, and the level of realism/enjoyable gameplay seems very minimal.

I actually prefer to think of these as natural extensions to our current rule set.
And actually design Bureaus are very realistic and fit in with the gameplay quite well. Ill give you an example.

Say Siam and Japan are at war, the Siamese learn through intelligence that the Japanese are in the process of designing a long range jet bomber capable of atacking Siam from bases in northern China. The solution? capture or destroy the Japanese Production centre that is designing the bomber. The Siamese launch a dareing air attack to take the production cenre out and succeed. Therefore destroying the design work protecting Siam from the threat of long range bomber attacks. How is that not realistic?

The design bureaus would also give much more realism in arms procurment, even if we only implement them for aircraft.

I have a suggestion on the subject of technological development. It involes two new research group types. These might help normalise tecnological research in game.

The first of these are:

Theoretical Research Institutes

Description
Theoretical reseach instiute funding represents government grants to private research laborotries and universities. These institutions spend all their time pondering the mysteries of the universe in every subject imgainable from quantum physics, to why toast always lands butter side down and the ineffable will of Bob. Research institutes focus on theoretical work and as such are extemely ineffcient on the turnover of useful things. However every once in a wihle they will discover something useful like jet engines, automatic toast catchers or cooler ways to blow things up.

Requirements:
Must be at least Tech level 4 and Must have at least Level III social services (Need universities).
Some countries will already have research institues (E.g. Germany, Britain, USA)

Cost:
The base cost is ten points to get all the equipment and facilities need for research (Comfy leather chairs and snow globes etc).
The Research institutes also need regular funding which increases as you go up in tech level.
So:
at tech level 4 funding is 3 points a year
at tech level 5 funding is 6 points a year
at tech level 6 funding is 9 points a year
at tech level 7 funding is 18 points a year
at tech level 8 funding is 36 points a year
at tech level 9 funding is 72 points a year
and so on

This is due to the fact that over time research institutes become increasngly more useful and therefore increasingly more expensive to run. It also has the side effect that only the most advanced and richest countries can afford them.
Extra funding can be put into institues and this will generally be beneficial, but only to a certain extent.

In-game benefits:
Most of the time Reseach institutes will sit around sucking up your hard earned economic points and giving you nothing in return. However they are vital for staying in the technological race.
Research Institutes will occasionally (i.e decided by a tech mod) come up with a major breakthrough such as jet engines, microchip computers or RADAR. These breakthroughs will allow for additional development to be made into the technology.
An example technological development programs will look:
Jet Engines- Requires: Jet research breakthrough and tech level six. Cost:12 points. Time: Three years.
Research institutes are needed for any kind of nuclear research to be undertaken.

An example of how this would work is:

In 1939 Portugal is tech level 6, with a research institute program and paying 9 points a year in funding and 2 points a year to secue research. The tech mod has rolled for Portugal to get a breakthrough this year and rolls Jet engines.
Portugal can now start practical development of the jet engine by paying an amount of points over so many years (exact figures to be decided by GB and/or tech mod). For this example lets say 12 points over three years.
Portugal pays this and can then build jet engines in 1942.
However in 1940 a Spanish spy managed to infiltrate the jet research institue and steal the theoretical research and the spanish also start development of jet engines and in 1943 Spain can build jet engines too.

Certain countries like Britain and Germany would get benefits in different fields of research and so would be more likely to get a breakthrough in that area.
Research institutes can be made to focus on different areas wich will make a breakthrough more likely in that area but less likely in others.
Continued focused research over ten years will yield a permament bonus in that area bu will take away a bonus in an other area if any.
This would probably involve some big chart for the tech mod having to be drawn up with notes for the modifiers for each country.

Sometimes you researcher will ask you for an extra special peice of equipment, such as a five mile wide supercollider, a new radio telescope observatory or a scientific research satellite network. If you indulge them and fork out the dough for these shiny toys you will get a temporary bonus research modifier.

Secruity:
Research intitutes are not normally the most secure places in the world and researchers eager to gain praise in the scientifc community will spread their ideas around the world within a year in peactime. This will mean every one can start the devlopmental reseach that you found out only a year after you. Even in wartime researchers will leave many important documents just lying around, easy for enemy spies to pick up.
To combat this you may pay 2 points extra per year to keep your research secure, however it will get out eventually no matter what security you have.
With advent of global mass communication networks (E.g the internet) keeping reseach secure becomes even harder and you must pay 4 points to keep it safe.

Sharing Research:
Research breakthroughs may be shared between nations (developmental work must always be done seperately).
Creating free infomation a research pacts with other countries will give modifiers to all countries involved as researchers from different countries will meet, teach each other rude jokes in foeign languages, drink copious amounts of alcohol and steal each others research generaly causing productivity to rise.


The second groups is:

Design Bureaus

Description
Design bureaus are groups of peoplae who are usually attached to manufacturing companies. Unlike theoretical research institutes, design bureaus are very productive, they design new machines for your military, such as planes, tanks and guns. To be able to manufacture your own eqiupment you must have a design bureau that specialises in that field.
So to make infantry units you must have a design bureau that makes rifles and artillery, to make armoured units you need a design bureau that makes tanks and so on.
Of course these weapons can be imported from other contries, negating the need for design bureaus for some countries, but to design your own weapons you need them.
Sometimes design bureaus come into exsistence of their own accord, but most of the time they are set up by the government. Most of the technologically advanced countries already have design bureaus.

Requirements:
To have a design bureau you need to have a production centre that the bureau is tied to. no more than two thirds of you production centres may be tied to design bureaus.
If a production centre that is tied to a design bureau is destroyed or damaged that design bureau stops working untill it is tied to another production centre and all the designs it is currently working on are lost. A design bureau can be tied to up to ten production centres

Cost:
A design bureau costs 10 points to set up, however they do not have a maintenance cost.
(As said above quite a few countries already have design bureaus)

In-game benefits:
Design bureaus will spend all their time figuring out how to build bigger and better machines of destruction. Every so often they will come up with a new one and you will have the option of using it in your armed forces or not.
What your design bureaus come up with is based somewhat on historical precedence and is ultimately decided by a tech mod.
Your design bureaus can be told to come up with something by the government and within a space of time they will come up with something. (Be it good or not) Each design bureau can only focus on one area; Aircraft, Armour* or Armament* (Rifles, machineguns, rocket launchers, artillery, etc). (Missiles could be a fourth)


An example of how it all works is:
(carrying on from the last example for theoretical research)

In 1942 after having made a theoretical research breakthrough and three years of development Portugal can now build jet engines, the Portuguese government issues a design contract to three of its design bureaus that focus on aircraft to design a jet fighter.
The three design bureaus are; NPA, TAW and ACR each one sets about designing a fighter. The tech mod tells the player how long each design will take to finish, in this case NPA 24 months, TAW 22 months and ACR 19 months.
However the following year in 1943 the production centre tied to the ACR design bureau is bombed and destroyed. Putting ACR out of the running as all of its design work was lost. A production centre tied to NPA is also bombed and destroyed, however NPA was tied to two production centres and so it can carry on. At the end of 1944 both bureaus have completed their design and they are presented to the government which can choose which one it wants to use. The Portuguese government chooses the TAW fighter which has higher speed and range which was what they were looking for.
A unit of fighters takes 6 months to build and so in the summer of 1945 the first units of TAW Mk.1 Falcão jet fighters enter service with the Portuguese Airforce.
(Just as in real life there will sometimes be delays to design work and the tech mod will roll for these and tell you of developments, the larger and more inovative the project the higher chance for delays)

Secruity:
Design bureaus are much more secure places than research institutes, as the designers and engineers will want to avoid peple stealing their designs.
However enemy spies will still be able to infiltrate them and in wartime extra security might be needed. This costs .10 points per design bureau, which is raised to .25 points when mass commnication media such as the internet comes about.
Remember no matter how good your security is there is always a chance someone might succeed.

Sharing Designs:
Designs can be shared between countries either for free or for money as part of trade.
You can give the ability for design bureaus in other countries to lisence build your design.

*These just need to be designed and chosen, the purchase cost for the equipment comes embedded within the cost of the unit. Better equipment gives modifiers in combat.


not bad, I will get back to you on this

Tech advantage already gives modifiers to combat results by the way

As in when a country goes from one tech level to another, they have certain inventions occur just from the very advancement. Not all inventions come from bureaus. There are a few that happen by complete accident. Penicillin. THat happened in some random lab that wasn't even searching for the cure to bacterial disease. It just happened. In fact some of the best inventions in history have been purely by accident. Not by any funded research.

So, like I said. As an addition this is fine. But if this is the ONLY way to get inventions, then I think it's too limiting.

As in when a country goes from one tech level to another, they have certain inventions occur just from the very advancement. Not all inventions come from bureaus. There are a few that happen by complete accident. Penicillin. THat happened in some random lab that wasn't even searching for the cure to bacterial disease. It just happened. In fact some of the best inventions in history have been purely by accident. Not by any funded research.

So, like I said. As an addition this is fine. But if this is the ONLY way to get inventions, then I think it's too limiting.

No inventions come from Design Bureaus, they just make different types of planes, tanks and guns.

Penicillin is a bad example to use as it is kind of the exception that proves the rule. The so called 'random lab' had to have been funded in the first place to exsist, whether it was actually searching for penicillin or not. Even though it was acidental the penicillin breakthrough research hapened in a lab and so is covered by the theoretical research institue. In fact many accidents provide breakthroughs in theoretical research most of these accidents happened in funded labs trying to do something else.
After the breakthrough dicovery happened there was further development of the penicillin drug that was funded by governments, so in fact the devlopment of penicillin happened exactly as my system works.

However theoretical research doesn't involve everything, a good example is the tank. There was no major theoretical research done in the development of the tank, it was just developed to fill a need.
I never said that all delevopment had to start in a theoretical institute, just some.
So as you can see that instead of limiting avenues of developmentm this suggestion actually broadens and clarifies them.

Well like I said, I don't mind this as a major point. As long as a random garage type invention happens every so often. That's my only point. This can be the norm, I have no problem with that, I actually support this. I just think that rarely a single nation can have some random garage invention. That's all.

This becoming the norm I fully support. THis becoming the ONLY is what I do not support. Other than that I'm behind it. Soooo I think we are kinda circling eachother, and agreeing. Sooo yeah that's about it.

Well like I said, I don't mind this as a major point. As long as a random garage type invention happens every so often. That's my only point. This can be the norm, I have no problem with that, I actually support this. I just think that rarely a single nation can have some random garage invention. That's all.

This becoming the norm I fully support. THis becoming the ONLY is what I do not support. Other than that I'm behind it. Soooo I think we are kinda circling eachother, and agreeing. Sooo yeah that's about it.

Random garage inventions rarely if ever happen they become even rarer the further into the twentieth century you go.
Twentieth century inventions usually require university education and where is a university educated person going to go to do their research?
Their gararge? or a funded research institute with top of the range equipment?

I think you'll find they will go to the funded research institute every time, most of the time even if it's another country.

Then I can't say I agree with you then. YOu want it to be the ONLY way, and I say there are at least some crackpot great inventions of the early 20th century. At least 1 every 20 years. So.. I can't support this, not that it matters. It's GB's call anyways. Its just this makes smaller nations even more pathetic to play.

Then I can't say I agree with you then. YOu want it to be the ONLY way, and I say there are at least some crackpot great inventions of the early 20th century. At least 1 every 20 years. So.. I can't support this, not that it matters. It's GB's call anyways. Its just this makes smaller nations even more pathetic to play.


Name me one major 'crackpot' invention that occured outside of a funnded enviroment in the twentieth century and I will agree with you.

And it doesn't make smaller nations more pathetic to play, because as I said in the security section of the theoretical research institutes, all research discoveries become common knowledge within a year of initial discovery. Which means that after a year even nations without theoretical research institue can start development work if they meet the other requirements.

Flux Compasitor.

No, just kidding. Let me see. Hmmm only ones I can find are late 19th century. Hmmm lets see. Nope that was funded by a private company. Nope that was funded by a private company. That doesn't say. Well there goes that argument. Guess I was wrong. Sorry.

So I have only one question. What about private funded items? The way this is set up it seems very public government funding. How would private funding (Which is actually about 60% of how these great inventions are funded that I am looking at.) going to be handled by your system? If it's obvious, please just hit me.

Name me one major 'crackpot' invention that occured outside of a funnded enviroment in the twentieth century and I will agree with you.

And it doesn't make smaller nations more pathetic to play, because as I said in the security section of the theoretical research institutes, all research discoveries become common knowledge within a year of initial discovery. Which means that after a year even nations without theoretical research institue can start development work if they meet the other requirements.

rubber as a useful commodity for tires and other items

Look up Goodyear, a crackpot inventor.

Also aircraft and submarines and automobiles

rubber as a useful commodity for tires and other items

Look up Goodyear, a crackpot inventor.

Also aircraft and submarines and automobiles

Goodyear was ninteenth century so he is out.

Submarines can be argued as having been around as early as the eighteenth century, but the first 'proper' ones started appearing in the nineteenth century so the're out too.

The Wright brothers were very early twentieth century (1903) so I suppose they count, but I would also count them as an exception and a rarity.

The automoile was late nineteenth century so thats out as well.

Ill give you the wright brothers, but Ill say that they are a dying beed and after them there are very few who work outside the funding system. And since the the wright brothers have been and gone I think my system will survive without a provision for working outside the system.

Anyway I would count the development of the airplane similar to that of the tank and as such doesn't require theoretical research just developmental research and prototyping for different sorts of planes.

So I have only one question. What about private funded items? The way this is set up it seems very public government funding. How would private funding (Which is actually about 60% of how these great inventions are funded that I am looking at.) going to be handled by your system? If it's obvious, please just hit me.

Even though most are private funded almost all the private funded institutions will receive some sort of government grants and that is what this represents.

Course in the end, how it works in the system is GB's. *Cough*

Course in the end, how it works in the system is GB's. *Cough*

Yes I know that, thats why I've made my suggestion and defended my case an will wait patiently for GB to look it over.
Personally I'd b happy if even a cut down version of one of the concepts was implemented.

As of the end of August Germany has lost the production center at Saarbrucken. Is it damaged or destroyed?

As of the end of August Germany has lost the production center at Saarbrucken. Is it damaged or destroyed?

production center is Saarbrucken is destroyed because it was so thoroughly fought over... so is the city for that matter.

Yeah, and factories make such good hiding places for snipers. So Spanish artillery would have probably smashed it to rubble. Any production centers.

1912 Brazil Builds (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11902375&postcount=47)

I assume Rumanian, Serbian and Greek Resources are available for Coalition use?

Depends on whether they survived the war or not. It wasn't like with Tangiers where it was over rather quickly. RUmania had huge armies and so did Greek. If any resources survived I gather you could have them. But most likely not for 1913. Most likely for 1914.

Depends on whether they survived the war or not. It wasn't like with Tangiers where it was over rather quickly. RUmania had huge armies and so did Greek. If any resources survived I gather you could have them. But most likely not for 1913. Most likely for 1914.

except Serbian forces were destroyed in one battle sround their capitalm no city fighting, Rumanian forces left the country and only fought in the capital, so i expect some damaged production centers, and Greek forces lost in and around Salonika and then fled, leaving Athens open

Thats production centers. Not resources. Resources also need people to man them. If the majority of the country is refugees or refuses to work, how will you run those production centers or resources?

How much will it cost per point of food for nations who need to buy the food (when rationing, as per the final paragraph in the new rules)? Is it as I'm assuming and 1 point per point of food?

Ok, so here is the situation in the Balkans for the Coalition:

Serbian Gains:
1 Production Centre in Belgrade <Is this Damaged?>
Coal: 0.5 (out of 1)
Food Production: 2 (out 4) <does this apply on food? I can't picture the occupied territories starving themselves? although it could be accounted for by the temporary breakdown of the system and the loss of manpower>

Rumanian Gains:
Production Centre in Bucharest: <Most likely damaged?>
Resources: 2.5 (out of 5)
Oil: 1.5 (out of 3)
Coal: 0.5 (out of 1)
food production: 6 (out of 12)

Greek Gains:
Production Centre in Athens: <Most likely undamaged>: 6 points (since as Sukaida kindly pointed out that production centers are not Resource centres)
Food Production: 8 (out of 16) (should have enough surplus to feed the Balkans and have a little surplus to send or sell)
Resources: 3 (out of 6)
Shipping: <Hmm I wonder how many of the 7 shipping units and the 1 Ocean Liner did we get?>

So total Coalition Gain from the Balkans is:
Food Surplus: 1.9
Coal: 1
Oil: 1.5
Production and Resources: 11.5 points
Shipping: waiting for mod responces

Of course these are under joint Euro-Coalition control. Germany, as being the head of course, should be allocating these as according to their plans.

How much will it cost per point of food for nations who need to buy the food (when rationing, as per the final paragraph in the new rules)? Is it as I'm assuming and 1 point per point of food?


1 point buys 1 food point which is 20 food resources which will feed 20 million at normal consumption

All Greek shipping and liners are now operating from Crete for the good of the Greek people.

Am I the only that still links to my builds here? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11925643&postcount=48)

In addition, the US, Australia and all Latin American countries that have agricultural surpluses get 1 point of income for every 3 points of excess agricultural output they have, instead of every 5 points


I'm curious just as why only these nations get 1/3 point / food and not other neutral countries in Europe or even South Africa?

Ok, so here is the situation in the Balkans for the Coalition:

Serbian Gains:
1 Production Centre in Belgrade <Is this Damaged?>
Coal: 0.5 (out of 1)
Food Production: 2 (out 4) <does this apply on food? I can't picture the occupied territories starving themselves? although it could be accounted for by the temporary breakdown of the system and the loss of manpower> ?>.

Serbia has 12% of its total population either dead or as POWs. So somebody has to build some police units to watch those POWs, and feed them. Serbian food production and industrial production is reduced by 9%. But it is automatically considered at wartime production and food rationing because its occupied. Therefore, it has to feed its 2.9 million people (and can feed POWs other people have control over too) with 1.5 food resources, meaning the other 2.5 food resources can feed up to 2.5, 5 or even 7.5 million people elsewhere (regular consumption, food rationing or emergency food rationing)

Its production center was indeed damaged but if repaired could be used

Its Coal production is indeed 1 at this point, as it at least wasn't damaged and people have to work


Rumanian Gains:
Production Centre in Bucharest: <Most likely damaged?>
Resources: 2.5 (out of 5)
Oil: 1.5 (out of 3)
Coal: 0.5 (out of 1)
food production: 6 (out of 12) .

production center was indeed damaged, resources provide 2.5 to Coalition, Oil is at 2 due to some damage (spend 12 points and you get the other 1 as well), Coal production is undamaged, and food production is reduced by 2 to 10 because of the large number of absent men. Current Rumanian population is 7 million (taking into account the absent men), so if on food rationing, only 3.5 points needed to feed Rumania, and that leaves 6.5 points to feed other people with.



Greek Gains:
Production Centre in Athens: <Most likely undamaged>: 6 points (since as Sukaida kindly pointed out that production centers are not Resource centres)
Food Production: 8 (out of 16) (should have enough surplus to feed the Balkans and have a little surplus to send or sell)
Resources: 3 (out of 6)
Shipping: <Hmm I wonder how many of the 7 shipping units and the 1 Ocean Liner did we get?>.

No shipping is captured as it escaped and indeed provided evacuation lift for the Allies during the Thracian Evacuation. This means the Allies have 7 transport units plus 1 liner unit available until January 1913. At that point, they can be kept as transports OR revert back to shipping under the control of the Greek Exile government, which can give those points to whoever it wants.

the Production center in Athens was indeed captured undamaged, and go to wartime production. This provides the Coalition with 6 points (due to population not available and some inefficiencies). Food production is reduced to 7, as a lot of Greek food production is from fishing, which is needless to say somewhat disrupted. HOwever, the population under Coalition control is 5 million, and under food rationing, this leaves 4.5 food resources available to export. The Coalition only gets 2 resources though.

The Greek Exile government, which still has control of the various Greek islands has 400,000 people under its control, food production of 5, and 1 resource plus its shipping.

Occupation governments may choose to pay social services, or choose not to. Advantage is level 1 social services provides at least some goodwill, and keeps more people working. No social services means an extra 10% reduction in production and more unrest and potential partisan activity later on. More services offered, less hostility generated.

I'm curious just as why only these nations get 1/3 point / food and not other neutral countries in Europe or even South Africa?

South Africa gets it too, and so does Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Other neutrals however do not get it for various structural reasons.

All Greek shipping and liners are now operating from Crete for the good of the Greek people.

don't assume that, and here is what the Exile Government gets

No shipping is captured as it escaped and indeed provided evacuation lift for the Allies during the Thracian Evacuation. This means the Allies have 7 transport units plus 1 liner unit available until January 1913. At that point, they can be kept as transports OR revert back to shipping under the control of the Greek Exile government, which can give those points to whoever it wants.

The Greek Exile government, which still has control of the various Greek islands has 400,000 people under its control, food production of 5, and 1 resource plus its shipping

This is the principal thread for economics rules and will be updated as the game progresses.

Current Special Rules Timeline in effect today, October 20, will be September / October 1911

Monday Oct 23 was November / December 1911
Wednesday will be January / February 1912

Tentative 1913 schedule as follows:
November 9 - 10 January / February 1912
November 11 - 13 builds
November 14 - 15 January / February
November 16 - 19 March / April
November 20 - 22 May / June (hopeful, have jury duty that week, so this may end up as a holiday)
November 22 - 26 Referee unavailable due to holiday
November 27 - 29 July / August
November 30 - December 2 September / October
December 3 - 5 November / December
December 6 - 7 builds for 1914


This takes us a little off track, but a busy holiday season for me is part of the reason

note that summer turns are when the most action occurs, as weather is a critical factor in warfare, especially with the wars we are simulating at this time.

This is the principal thread for economics rules and will be updated as the game progresses.


Special budget rules for nations at war
At the start of the year you add up your available points from production,resources etc. This is your budget.
1. Determine commerce -- figure out how many merchant ships you had at the start of last year, and whats left at the start of this year plus any added. Merchant shipping used as transports cannot be converted back over the course of the year, but only at the build phase of the year. (So if you had a merchant unit used as a transport, no commerce for it this year, but you can convert it back now and hopefully get commerce for it next year). Liner units and any airlines that exist have the same penalties.
2. Special damage and penalties are assessed now. They will vary. Any production centers lost or damaged or moved during the previous year suffer penalties now. Destryed production centers produce nothing, damaged ones only produce from the time they are repaired, and production centers that are moved cannot produce anything for 4 months from the time they are moved.

3. Now figure up what you have left. Now pay for maintenance of all existing military forces, your social service spending and any special projects. Whatever is left over is divided by 6 and can be spent each 2 month period.

Also ensure you have access to sufficient coal or oil to fuel you fleet. You get 20 fuel points for each point of coal or oil you have, and note in the naval rules which ships require what. Fuel requirements are whatever the maintenance cost of that naval unit is. Air units also require fuel. They must have oil, and the cost is .10 fuel points for each air unit you have (at this tech level)
Any special projects (like building railroads, infrastructure upgrades etc) are funed now as well.

4. KEEP TRACK of when your units are started and when they finished. A unit that takes six months to build, if started in January, becomes available in July for example.

IF your nation goes to war partway through a budget year, you cannot redo your budget. You can however, if you go to national effort, or if already at national effort go to wartime spending, use the extra points you get. However, you only get part of them. Your extra points are prorated, and are then divided by however many months remain in the year to determine what you get each turn (even numbered month). So if you went to national effort in July, you would look at the extra points you normally get for going to national effort, and then you get only 6/12s of those points. Then you divide them by 3 as there are only 3 turns left in the year, and do your builds and extra spending accordingly.

Unless you already spent extra points to pay the double maintenance costs for ground units, the first thing you will probably want to do is pay that so your units have sufficient ammunition to attack more then 1 turn.

Special Food rules
You will suffer penalties for having large segments of your working population in the military. Food production is penalized by 2% for each percentage point of men mobilized into military service until tech level 7 above the usual 3% norm. In addition, if you lose territory, you may lose productive agricultural areas that will reduce your food supply further. You can go to food rationing, and you can import food. However, you can only import 10 points of food for each minor port you have that has access to the sea, and only 20 points through a major port. You may also lose food en route to you if merchant shipping is sunk, particularly if your merchant shipping is sunk. Amounts will vary.

You have to keep track of how much food is available for your population each year if your nation is at war. You don't have to spend points to get that food, but you do have to have access to it.

If you have less food available then people, then the excess people start suffering malnutrition the first turn (2 month period), serious malnutrition the turn (2 month period) and famine the third turn. Once famine is reached, 20% of the population suffering famine dies each month after that.

You can prevent famine and keep people alive by going to emergency food rationing. This provides just enough people for people to be malnurished but not die of starvation. 1 food point will feed 3 million in this situation. However, 5% of the people on emergency food rationing will die each year from disease.

Special manpower effects on production
For each 1% of your population in the army above 5%, you suffer a loss in industrial production equal to that percentage. So if you have 10% of your manpower in the Army, your production is reduced by 5%. This represents the fact that a lot of these men are needed in the economy. HOWEVER, you may introduce Womens Suffrege if your nation is tech level 5 and democratic, and this will raise that manpower ceiling to 10% (as women go to work). The Women don't get to vote right away, unless you decide they can, but it does mean you will have to let them with 10 years or suffer penalties. This bonus applies to agricultural production as well.

Some social change will occur as a result of this. If your nation isn't democratic, you cannot have Womens Suffrage.

Total War Mobilization of Manpower.
Normally no more then 10% of your manpower can be in the military during wartime. However, if you go to Total War economy, then 15% of your manpower can be in the miilitary. However, this extra cushion of men can only be used to provide militia, garrison, police, static infantry or fortress infantry units. The economic penalties that apply to production and agriculture apply in this case, with each 1% of the population mobilized over 10% counting twice as much (so potentially a 20% penalty in food and industrial production, a nation with Womens Suffrage only suffers 10% penalty).

Forced Labor
You may use POWs and forced labor obtained from occupied countries to make up for your manpower in the army. You must have 1 police unit for every 1 million people so enslaved. In addition, no more then 10% of an occupied countries population can so be enslaved, and this of course is going to be rough on the country so victimized. Which may come back to haunt you later. This of course is an atrocity, and could also bring you retribution... if you lose. You can also use slave labor for special projects like railroads etc which cuts the cost by 50%.

You do have to account for these people as far as food production requirements are concerned. You can however but them on food rationing (which will kill 10% of them a year) or Emergency food rationing (which kills 25% a year) or if your particularly nasty, destructive labor rationing (which kills 50% of them a year).

Needless to say, Democratic countries may not use slave labor.

POWs
Special cost: Every 100,000 POWs that you hold requires 1 police or garrison unit. This takes into account the costs of prisons as well.

Special 1913 penalties
Russia suffers a loss of 30% in Food production to take into account the loss of parts of the Ukraine, Belorussia and the Baltic areas (to enemy control) and also shortages in nitrates needed for agriculture due to the difficulty of getting in imports

Germany suffers a 5% loss after adding in what it controls now and subtracting what it lost and including nitrate shortages

German coal production is decreased by 1 coal unit to due losses in production fields.

Cities that have been captured in 1912 provide only HALF of their normal resources due to dislocation and destruction.

The US, UK, Australia, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, Sweden, and South Africa all get their points earned from commerce doubled for 1913 budget year as they are seeing short term increases in production orders by the bellegerents, and also are carrying more of the worlds trade in the wake of commerce warfare by the bellegerents.

In addition, the US, Australia, South Africa, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Netherlands and all Latin American countries that have agricultural surpluses get 1 point of income for every 3 points of excess agricultural output they have, instead of every 5 points

Also, governments that are at war must spend budget points to pay for any food production they can't provide on their own IF a government is using food rationing or emergency food rationing. This reflects the fact that food prices are skyrocketing due to demand and shortages, and governments have to intervene.

modified new rules

Do the Allies get anything from the territories they occupy (Food, Industrial Production, etc)?

Major Cities under Allied Occupation: Metz, Strasbourg, Saarbrucken, Aachen, Cologne, Jerusalem, Beirut, Damascus, Amman, Mosul, Baghdad, Basra, Tangier, Rabat.

This provides the Coalition with 42 points (due to population not available and some inefficiencies).

42 points from Greece's production center and resources... GB I think you might have made a typo there.

Do the Allies get anything from the territories they occupy (Food, Industrial Production, etc)?

Major Cities under Allied Occupation: Metz, Strasbourg, Saarbrucken, Aachen, Cologne, Jerusalem, Beirut, Damascus, Amman, Mosul, Baghdad, Basra, Tangier, Rabat.

Probably, will be getting to occupied areas, NPCs and special situations beginning tomorrow

42 points from Greece's production center and resources... GB I think you might have made a typo there.

read it wrong, saw 6 production centers for some reason

actual amount is indeed 6 points for the 1 production center at wartime production with inefficiencies factored in

Woohoo! Oh yeah, show me the money. ;)

Aussie Build 1913 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11919248&postcount=26)

Important stuff:

Tribute to Mother England: 20 units
Aid to NZ: 1 unit
Invest in Resource Exploration: 1 Growth Point (For more resource points hopefully)

Also, I'll be away for a few weeks so I've asked Parth to take over until I get back. That is all.......

274 Points Income
Military Maintenance: 45
Social Safety: 21
80 total in Maintenance/Social Safety

216 left
36 per build cycle

January/February
2 Chemical Stockpiles: 6
Repair Ships: 4.5
4 Heavy Infantry Corps: 8
Upgrade 4 Cavalry Divisions to Heavy Infantry: 6
2 Observation Planes- 1
4 Marine Brigades: 2
Production Center in Seoul (8/24): 4
Artillery Corp: 8


March/April
Repair Ships: 4.5
2 Chemical Stockpiles: 6
Upgrade 4 Cavalry Divisions to Heavy Infantry: 6
4 Heavy Infantry Corp: 8
4 Marine Brigades: 2
Production Center in Seoul (8/24): 1
4 Light Cruisers: 4
Artillery Corp: 6
2 Observation Planes: 2

May/June
4 Heavy Infantry Corps: 4
4 Marine Brigades: 2
Upgrade 4 Light Infantry Divisions to Heavy Infantry: 12
Production Center in Seoul (9/24): 4
2 Chemical Stockpile: 4
Artillery Corp: 2
Long Range Submarine Unit: 6
1 Manchurian Heavy Infantry Corp: 1



July/August
Production Center in Seoul (20/24): 4
4 Light Cruisers (Total 8 being built): 4
SuperDreadnought Research: 16
Aviotion Industry: 12

September/October
SuperDreadnaught Research (22/60): 26
Airplane Industry (12/100): 10

November/December
SuperDreadnought Research (48/60): 12
North Sakhalin: 15
Aviation Industry (22/100): 9

341 Points Income
Military Maintenance: 59
Social Safety: 21
80 total in Maintenance/Social Safety

see Japanese thread... 20% reduction due to inflation and shortages of capital

Bulgarian Projected Build 1913:
Production Centre: 12 -Total War-
Resources: 5
Coal: 1 -have MTB flottila sit in Varna-

Income: 18 points
Military Maintenance: 6.25
Level 3 Social Services (Bulgaria)= 1.2 points:
Level 1 Social Services (Greece+Rumania+Serbia)= 1.46 points

Jan/Feb: 1.5 points
2 Police Unit 1.5

Mar/Apr: 1.5 points
2 Police Unit 3/3

May/Jun: 1.5 points
2 Police Unit 1.5

Jul/Aug: 1.5 points
2 Police Unit 3/3

Sep/Oct: 1.5 points
2 Police Unit 1.5

Nov/Dec: 1.5 points
2 Police Unit 3/3