NationStates Jolt Archive

Are you trying to say your missile will either flip or come to a complete stop?
Didn't think so.

Do you claim the truck would come out of the encounter unscaved and is more heavily damaged than if it were going slow?
Do you accept that flak particles are relatively good counter to missiles; and have a better chance than the car against the truck?
Yes to both these questions; would suggest that a missile flying into a cloud of flak, would be bad news for a missile and cannot simply be shrugged off by going faster.

Obviously the flip scenario won't happen to the missile, so it would continue into a plane. Flak particles don't make a good counter for missiles. You can't make an cloud of flak anyway. There will always be gaps due to wind, gravity etc.

Exactly, and that shrapanel would be hitting at either faster speeds (incoming pieces), slower speeds (shrapanel flying away), and shrapanel from other angles if applicable. Keep in mind that the system creates a cloud of heavy metal flying shards in front of the missile's path. And cloud, I mean, bullets hitting the same relative area towards the missile two-three times a second. And as I said, many bombers are doing the same thing.

You can't just fly through it; it's like trying to drive a car going 1200km/h through a brick wall; you can't. The car may go through, but the car would be more than totaled, it would be decimated, or disintegrated. A good example of what I mean, go look up Jeff Krosnoff, Toronto on http://www.youtube.com. Just as a warning, not for the squeemish, but an example of when relatively soft metal impacts even a metal fence from a glancing angle at half the speed you're talking about.

P.S. Look for the 5:50 long version.

Flak is shrapnel, it is not like the brick wall. To use your example, if you have a brick wall attached by cement, then a car may struggle to get through it (at the speed you indicated thou, it is possible that the car would go through relatively unscaved). However, if you just stack bricks together, then a car could easily go though it.

Need a pretty big gap for a missile. Plus each piece of flak would be equally subject to the forces that be; they would move together relatively. Actually flak would be relatively effective against modern missiles. Missiles have thinner plating than planes which pretty much summarises it; just takes one nice bit of flak to set off the entire keg. Plus they could disrupt guidance (I’m told) and can cause trouble with the propulsion.

I’d love to see you drive a car through a stack of bricks undamaged. I’d also love to see how driving into the pile faster makes the car significantly less damaged.

It's like those martial artists who break board/concrete/whatever. If they fail to break the board/concrete/whatever, they will hurt themselves. If they go through it, it is not that painful at all. By your logic, such actions would be impossible as the martial artist would always break his fingers. You got to remember that all Force = Mass x Acceleration (or F=MA)

Flak does not reflect radar waves big enough to equate to the RCS (radar cross scan) of a aircraft. So on a Patriot, it won't muck up gudiance much, if at all.

Obviously you didn't watch the video. Yes, the race car made it through the fence. However, the car was in a zillion pieces, and killed the driver, what they ended up saying, instantly.

A missile is more delicate than an indy car. Indy cars are designed to fragment, yes, but not the hard parts, and that's what happened there.

Anyways, as for the flak not messing up radar, I highly doubt it. First of all, ever heard of chaff? It would function similarely, though it's not made of the same material, and thus, not as effective. But it would also give out a small heat source, disrupting heat signatures as well.

And finally, physics in this case doesn't matter. Here, I'll draw a diagram:

http://edf.tauniverse.com/StratoannihilatorDiagram.jpg

As you can see, each shot explodes in the relative spot of where the missile will end up, firing shards of metal in all directions. You can't fly the missiles through that without being utterly decimated. Let me explain why.

Using a random sniper rifle (http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/sniper_rifles.asp) that I looked up, I got the value of 2,919km/h of the sniper rifle shot. As you all know, sniper rifles can penetrate almost any surface except actual tank armor (which your missiles are NOT coated with) to a stunning degree. It can shoot through doors, some softer metals, and through human skills. This is the rifle firing at a stationary target.

Now, let's talk about your missile. I'm going to guess or just use as an example, the AIM-120 AMRAAM (http://www.jolly-rogers.com/airpower/aim-120/structure.html) missile. According to this, the missile flies at the most, Mach 4, which converted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_number), is around 4,900km/h. If this were a sniper rifle bullet, it would either disintegrate the bullet, or goes through a fair amount of even tank armor. And as for other things, well, it would go through a bazillion things.

Now, let's count the flak shells. Those flak bits would be covering a massive amount of area, and at the speed of the missile, combined with the collision of the shrapanel alone, would utterly decimate the missile, causing more shrapanel for those other missiles to fly through, and destroy even more. There is no way those missiles can fly through. And I'm not counting even the velocity of the flak.

Keep in mind that this is an explosion that happens three times a second, from multiple planes.

The only way to circumvent it, as I said, is to have plains above that turret's effective range, or attack from multiple angles. For the former, they only have it on the bottom for the reason that they expect that from their high altitude, and how long it would take to get planes to fly that high, that there is no need for a flak missile defense turret, though the two top .50cal twin-linked turrets on top and bottom can intercept missiles and fighters too, though much less effectively for the former. You'll have to RP how they would get detected soon enough for your planes to fly that high.

As for the latter, it's only dooable once; as if you've ever flown a dogfight, after the initial pass, it's really hard to do the same sort of thing again.

P.S.: That bomber is exactly what my bomber that I'm talking about looks like. And yes, it's that big. (That blue line is the windshield of the cockpit).

Obviously you didn't watch the video. Yes, the race car made it through the fence. However, the car was in a zillion pieces, and killed the driver, what they ended up saying, instantly.

A missile is more delicate than an indy car. Indy cars are designed to fragment, yes, but not the hard parts, and that's what happened there.

Anyways, as for the flak not messing up radar, I highly doubt it. First of all, ever heard of chaff? It would function similarely, though it's not made of the same material, and thus, not as effective. But it would also give out a small heat source, disrupting heat signatures as well.

And finally, physics in this case doesn't matter. Here, I'll draw a diagram:

http://edf.tauniverse.com/StratoannihilatorDiagram.jpg

As you can see, each shot explodes in the relative spot of where the missile will end up, firing shards of metal in all directions. You can't fly the missiles through that without being utterly decimated. Let me explain why.

Using a random sniper rifle (http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/sniper_rifles.asp) that I looked up, I got the value of 2,919km/h of the sniper rifle shot. As you all know, sniper rifles can penetrate almost any surface except actual tank armor (which your missiles are NOT coated with) to a stunning degree. It can shoot through doors, some softer metals, and through human skills. This is the rifle firing at a stationary target.

Now, let's talk about your missile. I'm going to guess or just use as an example, the AIM-120 AMRAAM (http://www.jolly-rogers.com/airpower/aim-120/structure.html) missile. According to this, the missile flies at the most, Mach 4, which converted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_number), is around 4,900km/h. If this were a sniper rifle bullet, it would either disintegrate the bullet, or goes through a fair amount of even tank armor. And as for other things, well, it would go through a bazillion things.

Now, let's count the flak shells. Those flak bits would be covering a massive amount of area, and at the speed of the missile, combined with the collision of the shrapanel alone, would utterly decimate the missile, causing more shrapanel for those other missiles to fly through, and destroy even more. There is no way those missiles can fly through. And I'm not counting even the velocity of the flak.

Keep in mind that this is an explosion that happens three times a second, from multiple planes.

The only way to circumvent it, as I said, is to have plains above that turret's effective range, or attack from multiple angles. For the former, they only have it on the bottom for the reason that they expect that from their high altitude, and how long it would take to get planes to fly that high, that there is no need for a flak missile defense turret, though the two top .50cal twin-linked turrets on top and bottom can intercept missiles and fighters too, though much less effectively for the former. You'll have to RP how they would get detected soon enough for your planes to fly that high.

As for the latter, it's only dooable once; as if you've ever flown a dogfight, after the initial pass, it's really hard to do the same sort of thing again.

P.S.: That bomber is exactly what my bomber that I'm talking about looks like. And yes, it's that big. (That blue line is the windshield of the cockpit).

The missile is travelling in the same line as the bomber, above that flak area in your diagram. In any case, you also need to consider the fact that the bombers would probably fly over the flak cloud area, before the missile reaches the aircraft itself.

Chaff is aluminium, and really only useful for fighter aircraft, cause you need a pretty big amounts of chaff (even moreso with flak) to have the RCS of the bomber.

By the time the flak cloud is formed, the flak has no velocity, otherwise it would be moving soon. Said flak particles also have little to no mass. It differs from the fence that the fence actually has more weight (together) then the flak particles on their own.

And having just watched that video. The poor bugger didn't even go pass the fence. He probably died because of damage to the brain as well as being squashed by the fence (the F1 being opentop). Further to that, I can't even see how this relates to our situation at hand, and I find that very disrespectful for the man, considering he died as a result.

NC how did your people manage to leave and catch up with a speed boat.

Two boats travelling at the same speed will remain the same distance apart. The boat from Rotovia only slows long enough to grab the buoy. Unless your ships a teleport capable; the snoops will be long back in Rotovian waters before you catch up.

Its a police speed boat, abd it was already in the water.

And you cant carry the buoy, its probably taller then the person carrying it!

I don't think having police written on the side of a boat makes it go faster. And unless the police are stationed within a hundred metres of the buoy its going to help much as the Farminan boat is also in the water.

As for the size of the buoy; you didn't seem to complain about the people's ability to lift it before, only now. Not that it would be taller than a person would matter much. If it weighed a lot; that might be more of a problem.

its also heavy.

And since did someone carry it, it was launched by a submarine. Since it would take a while for you to drag it, there is enough time for the police to arrive.

I have two comments on this issue.
1) If the boat has a winch it would only take about 3-5 min to get it on board.
2) Even if there were only two men on the boat with no winch it would take them about 10-15 min to bring it aboard. The weight problem may not be an issue depending on how the speed boats deck is laid out. If their is a diving platform off the stern then they only have to lift half the weigh if that. The water will support the other half of the weight.
Assuming that the units are more then ten miles off your coast there is no way that a speed boat could get there in time. A police speed boat would do no more then 45mph over open water.

(I got these facts from a good friend who is a Captain of on Oil rig support and recovery vessel in the Gulf of Mexico.)

Also, in the thread, it reads as if they are pulling the buoy apart.

Also, in the thread, it reads as if they are pulling the buoy apart.

My reading of my post is that it is to be dismantled on the way back to Rotovian waters. The order of events exactly as reads: the buoy is secured, "Reg" prepares to dismantle the buoy and "Lip" releases the break; no pauses. It only takes one person to drive a small boat.

Thanks to Tarlag; always useful to have someone who knows more than me around.

The missile is travelling in the same line as the bomber, above that flak area in your diagram. In any case, you also need to consider the fact that the bombers would probably fly over the flak cloud area, before the missile reaches the aircraft itself.

Chaff is aluminium, and really only useful for fighter aircraft, cause you need a pretty big amounts of chaff (even moreso with flak) to have the RCS of the bomber.

By the time the flak cloud is formed, the flak has no velocity, otherwise it would be moving soon. Said flak particles also have little to no mass. It differs from the fence that the fence actually has more weight (together) then the flak particles on their own.

And having just watched that video. The poor bugger didn't even go pass the fence. He probably died because of damage to the brain as well as being squashed by the fence (the F1 being opentop). Further to that, I can't even see how this relates to our situation at hand, and I find that very disrespectful for the man, considering he died as a result.

First of all, I wasn't intending to be disrespectful; it's just the example I came across at the time, that and indy-cars are about as well armored as those missiles, other than their collision survivability box.

Secondly, whether or not the flak has velocity or not, I specifically implied that the missiles velocity alone to hit the fragments is enough to destroy it, not just the flak velocity.

Third, the metal fragments aren't aluminum. They're metal casings filled with metal pellets and chunks. It's a weapon, not a radar jammer. It literally explodes. As well, the flak shell is longer than normal, to make it easier to fire a smaller round more accurately, yet adding more power.

And finally, this round, combined with 180-200 rounds a minute, combined with the group firepower of the other bombers, radar tracking, and a massive web of metal fragments, and you have yourselves a minefield. As I said, there's no way, unless you post a reasonable post to how they climbed to their altitude to fire at that height. That's why they designed interceptors, because fighters can't do it fast enough.

First of all, I wasn't intending to be disrespectful; it's just the example I came across at the time, that and indy-cars are about as well armored as those missiles, other than their collision survivability box.

Secondly, whether or not the flak has velocity or not, I specifically implied that the missiles velocity alone to hit the fragments is enough to destroy it, not just the flak velocity.

Third, the metal fragments aren't aluminum. They're metal casings filled with metal pellets and chunks. It's a weapon, not a radar jammer. It literally explodes. As well, the flak shell is longer than normal, to make it easier to fire a smaller round more accurately, yet adding more power.

And finally, this round, combined with 180-200 rounds a minute, combined with the group firepower of the other bombers, radar tracking, and a massive web of metal fragments, and you have yourselves a minefield. As I said, there's no way, unless you post a reasonable post to how they climbed to their altitude to fire at that height. That's why they designed interceptors, because fighters can't do it fast enough.

Ok, but you also must consider the bombers move at the same time (so said bombers would enter the flak cloud as well). And again, some missiles will survive the cloud.

Also, 180-200 rounds is a godmod, put simply. With a gun going at that rate, I don't even need to send anything to see you destroyed. The airframe would rip itself apart. At most, its 60 rounds a minute, and probably even less. You also must consider that the faster it fires, the more time you have to put it to maintenance, which is something you don't want being this isolated from home terrority.

I'm starting to think that it would be easier if when people make posts containing Fantastic Weapons System!™ they also put a post here describing what it does, what it is, and how it "works" for the RP.

In the meantime, if NC and Farmina have sorted out the patrol boat issue, can we at least have some movement on that?

NC hasn't indicated any change in position; the speed boat issue is unresolved.

Ok, but you also must consider the bombers move at the same time (so said bombers would enter the flak cloud as well). And again, some missiles will survive the cloud.

Also, 180-200 rounds is a godmod, put simply. With a gun going at that rate, I don't even need to send anything to see you destroyed. The airframe would rip itself apart. At most, its 60 rounds a minute, and probably even less. You also must consider that the faster it fires, the more time you have to put it to maintenance, which is something you don't want being this isolated from home terrority.

Alright, let me dig up some sources. Ah.

The naval F4U Corsair (Charlie model) from WWII, had four Hispano MK. 8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano-Suiza_HS.404) 20mm cannons, 10mm smaller calibre as the flak shells being fired from my plane, but quad linked, rather than single-shot, which means more recoil. They could fire 600-850 rounds per minute, per gun. Remember that this is a fighter.

Now, there's the other plane, called the Stuka, G variant. It carried dual BK 37mm cannons. Using the Flak 43 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flak_43) stats, it tells me that they fired twin linked, at 160RPM (at the beginning of the war), and 250RPM (later on), both higher than what I quoted, at a higher calibre, and twin-linked.

And finally, going to bigger planes. This plane, which is smaller than my bomber (though still big), it carried a massive (for planes) 75mm cannon. The plane? The horrible Heinkel He 177 Greif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177). Before you say it was terrible because of the gun, that wasn't the case. It was because of its horrible powerplant prone to fires and failures. When the plane actually did work, the cannon worked beautifully.

And for a modern example, I turn to nothing else but the wonderful A-10 Thunderbolt II (Warthog) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-10). It carries the wonderful GAU-8 Avenger 30mm gattling gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger), same calibre as my gun, mounted to a ground attack fighter-sized craft. This weapon can fire at a crazy 4,200 RPM! I even underestimated a realistic RPM, so in this case, I'm boosting it to 500RPM.

See what happens when you force me to look things up? :headbang: :(

And as for the cloud, yes, that's calculated. The flak bits would fly away from the explosion point due to its velocity. Secondly, the explosions occur exactly 1km away from the point of firing, so as the picture displays, it actually makes a moving cloud. Third, the cloud would be more or less dispersed before the bomber got there, as it had a kilometer to dispurse. And last, it doesn't necessarely fire straight forward for that reason.

And before you counter how it would disolve before your missiles arrive, these rounds are fired in the missile's path when it's about 2-3 kilometer's away. The cloud keeps forming for as long as missiles fly at it.

*shakes thread violently*

Flak rounds are lot different from normal bullets or cannons, basically. As a result, you really can't compare the two. Your aircraft would suffer from having a crap airframe due to the recoil in flak, that they have to go into maintaince quite often or may even rip apart mid flight. Search for aircraft with a FLAK cannon in them.

And you cant say exact, since flak uses fuses to explode. Ever heard of the joke that a 5 second grenade will explode in 3 seconds? (Murphy's Law I believe)

If its not straightforward, the missile will just pass right on top of it.

Speedboat issue?

ill fix that up later today.

Flak rounds are lot different from normal bullets or cannons, basically. As a result, you really can't compare the two. Your aircraft would suffer from having a crap airframe due to the recoil in flak, that they have to go into maintaince quite often or may even rip apart mid flight. Search for aircraft with a FLAK cannon in them.

And you cant say exact, since flak uses fuses to explode. Ever heard of the joke that a 5 second grenade will explode in 3 seconds? (Murphy's Law I believe)

If its not straightforward, the missile will just pass right on top of it.

Did you even read what I said about the A-10's 4,200 RPM firing rate? The fact that the German HE-177 carried a 75mm gun without falling apart? You seem to be ignoring me. A flak gun isn't necessarely that powerful firing. This one is a much lighter one, because instead of trying to fire a literal 10,000 meters or higher into the sky, it's firing only a click away. The shocks would be much less.

And secondly, yes, it COULD fail. However, it A) uses a microchip instead of a fuse, as they're more reliable, yet still cheap to manufacture (a simple electronic switch would be easy to manufacture, like a calculator), and B) We're talking about six rounds exploding a second. Whether or not they detonate at the exact spot specified is irrelevant; the sheer number of shots and fragmentation would counter that.

Now, stop arguing the point, and start finding a way to circumvent it by using tactics! :headbang:

Oh, and as for the tactics, when you do make the post, you can't make planes mysteriously appear from nowhere without posting forewarning. Otherwise the I.G.N.O.R.E. cannon will be used.

Did you even read what I said about the A-10's 4,200 RPM firing rate? The fact that the German HE-177 carried a 75mm gun without falling apart? You seem to be ignoring me. A flak gun isn't necessarely that powerful firing. This one is a much lighter one, because instead of trying to fire a literal 10,000 meters or higher into the sky, it's firing only a click away. The shocks would be much less.

You should be saying that yourself. A flak gun shell is an artellery cannon. I said that didn't I. Therefore the characteristcs are different compared to the A-10, with is based on cannons.


And secondly, yes, it COULD fail. However, it A) uses a microchip instead of a fuse, as they're more reliable, yet still cheap to manufacture (a simple electronic switch would be easy to manufacture, like a calculator), and B) We're talking about six rounds exploding a second. Whether or not they detonate at the exact spot specified is irrelevant; the sheer number of shots and fragmentation would counter that.

In battlefield conditions, microchips are even less reliable then fuses. You got things such as dust weather conditions, how you pack it (microchips are vulnerable to heavy damage from knocking). Plus you just increased the price of the single shell. Something not liked when millions of said shells need to be provided.

Now, stop arguing the point, and start finding a way to circumvent it by using tactics! :headbang:


I don't like seting precedents, where you could just roll over me by using impossible tech.

Oh, and as for the tactics, when you do make the post, you can't make planes mysteriously appear from nowhere without posting forewarning. Otherwise the I.G.N.O.R.E. cannon will be used.

Yes..

Farmina, I will edit the post so that it is more feasiable for the boats to make it to the boat.

Farmina, I will edit the post so that it is more feasiable for the boats to make it to the boat.

You can't rewrite history to suit your preferred version of events. Do you think Farmina would have gone after guarded buoys in the same fashion it would go after unguarded buoys?

Perhaps I should also rewrite my post prior to yours, in this new timeline lets say; bombing the your boats then securing the buoys. But then you'll rewrite history even further back...and in the end Tobias Grey would never have been born.

I don't like seting precedents, where you could just roll over me by using impossible tech.
I can't help but suspect you were trying to do the exact same thing.

I can't help but suspect you were trying to do the exact same thing.

Just about everything that I have used is actual military technology, currently being used in military hotspots such as Iraq, Afghanistan etc.. The only exection I can think of atm, is the spy things. But they are feasiable to do, to the point that even I right now could do it with the right equipment (it's illegal btw).

And the reason why I've edited is to stop cluttering the thread. If you want, I can repost it.

I am not really in favor of the "do over" concept. the whole argument would have been solved by three things.
1) Northern Colonies should of made a reference to the size and weight of the boyes.
2) Farmina should of stated how they brought the units on the boat. A simple we were using a winch would of made a world of difference.
3) NC if you said you were using a helicopter instead of a speed boat no one would of had a problem with what was posted.

In my view the in tire flak issues is becoming stupid. Let me give everyone a few facts.
They have had proximity fuses since 1944 and they work great.

The recoil on the 30 mm cannon of the A-10 is greater the that of a 75 mm single shot cannon. If you fire a long enough burst form the gun the plane will stop in mid air and then crash.

A 75 mm rapid fire gun on an aircraft is not practical for a few reasons.
How are you carrying around all the ammo that thing would need?
A rapid fire 75 mm your recoil would be outrageous, unless this is a low powered shell there will be problems. you could do the same job with a smaller cannon (say 30-40 mm).

Can we now move on, Please.

I am not really in favor of the "do over" concept. the whole argument would have been solved by three things.
1) Northern Colonies should of made a reference to the size and weight of the boyes.
2) Farmina should of stated how they brought the units on the boat. A simple we were using a winch would of made a world of difference.
3) NC if you said you were using a helicopter instead of a speed boat no one would of had a problem with what was posted.

In my view the in tire flak issues is becoming stupid. Let me give everyone a few facts.
They have had proximity fuses since 1944 and they work great.

The recoil on the 30 mm cannon of the A-10 is greater the that of a 75 mm single shot cannon. If you fire a long enough burst form the gun the plane will stop in mid air and then crash.

A 75 mm rapid fire gun on an aircraft is not practical for a few reasons.
How are you carrying around all the ammo that thing would need?
A rapid fire 75 mm your recoil would be outrageous, unless this is a low powered shell there will be problems. you could do the same job with a smaller cannon (say 30-40 mm).

Can we now move on, Please.


I was thinking of using the speedboats, but after reading over your points, decided to change the positioning of the boats and having a helicopter, to make it more feasible.

And the reason why I've edited is to stop cluttering the thread. If you want, I can repost it.

It is not editting I object to. It is the rewritting of history.

It is not editting I object to. It is the rewritting of history.

To be honest, you haven't even made a reply to that yet. So I don't really see any rewritting of history.

Assuming there are no content challenges, NC, your re-written post is frankly painful to read. Can I suggest you change:

The tampering was already noted back at the mainland, and after a few minutes, three speedboats, sailing only 100m from the buoys from the The Prince's End Port Police appoached the two men. With sirens blazing, five men from each boat came out of the bridge, armed with M4A1s. In addition, a police helicopter arrived.

"This is the Prince's End Port Police!" Shouted the Skipper of one of the boats, through a loudspeaker. "You are under arrest and are outnumbered. Put your hands in the air, now!"
To this:

The tampering was quickly noted back at the mainland; within minutes a nearby patrol of three speedboats had been directed to intercept the Farminians. Hailing from the Prince's End Port Police, they were soon joined by a support helicopter.

"This is the Prince's End Port Police!" Shouted the Skipper of one of the boats, through a loudspeaker. "You are under arrest and are outnumbered. Put your hands in the air, now!"

Thank Mac. The original does sound a bit bad. It was a bit of a band-aid type writing, and I apologise for that.

You should be saying that yourself. A flak gun shell is an artellery cannon. I said that didn't I. Therefore the characteristcs are different compared to the A-10, with is based on cannons.

There is no difference between a regular cannon round, and a high-explosive round. Flak is simply a German term for a heavier gun. Look at the Flak 88 for example; it could fire high explosive rounds, but it could also directly fire at enemy tanks. As well, it doesn't arc like regular artillery, which makes that argument mute.

Secondly, no matter what type of round it is, it will always have the same firing characteristic of that calibre. Unless it's heavier for some reason, and mine's only slightly heavier, but firing at a much reduced range than normal.

In battlefield conditions, microchips are even less reliable then fuses. You got things such as dust weather conditions, how you pack it (microchips are vulnerable to heavy damage from knocking). Plus you just increased the price of the single shell. Something not liked when millions of said shells need to be provided.

Now what about missiles? Cruise missiles? Guided bombs? Same thing, but infinitely more complex. I'm talking about a simple switch, not a gigantic onboard computer like on a missile.

I don't like seting precedents, where you could just roll over me by using impossible tech.

I don't use impossible tech. I'm using tech that I've done a ton of research on. My factbook has links to some of the lesser known technologies. And as for the flak gun, the reason why they aren't used, is because in dogfights, they're too inaccurate (as the firing delay would be nearly impossible to accurately set). In my case, it works because it uses a fixed detonation time, and thus, make that cloud effect that forms six times a second or more.

Just about everything that I have used is actual military technology, currently being used in military hotspots such as Iraq, Afghanistan etc.. The only exection I can think of atm, is the spy things. But they are feasiable to do, to the point that even I right now could do it with the right equipment (it's illegal btw).

And mine isn't? If I wanted to, I could use uber starships from three hundred years in the future. No, I instead make new units, and modified existing ones to use modern technology. I do my research, as you obviously don't really. Start reading up if you don't believe me on things.

In my view the in tire flak issues is becoming stupid. Let me give everyone a few facts.
They have had proximity fuses since 1944 and they work great.

Exactly.

The recoil on the 30 mm cannon of the A-10 is greater the that of a 75 mm single shot cannon. If you fire a long enough burst form the gun the plane will stop in mid air and then crash.

Actually, I read that that's a myth. The A-10 wouldn't crash. But it would definitely slow down.

A 75 mm rapid fire gun on an aircraft is not practical for a few reasons.

Yet the Germans did it, believe it or not.

How are you carrying around all the ammo that thing would need?

For the Germans, the bomber didn't carry bombs. My bomber though doesn't use the 75mm; it uses a rapid-fire single-barrel 30mm.

A rapid fire 75 mm your recoil would be outrageous, unless this is a low powered shell there will be problems. you could do the same job with a smaller cannon (say 30-40 mm).

Hense why I used 30mm early on. But the Germans did theirs just to kill tanks. Worked too, though they never used it in combat.

Can we now move on, Please.

Please? :(

NC you will have to make a new post eventually.

This post may need some time to make it sound good.

Plus, I may need Rotovia to reply to see if he's availiable.

NC you may have to tel. Rotovia, he has been inactive for a long time. If I remember right he just got married and has not spent any time on the forums.
I hope you can get him in he is a good role player and will ad to the good group we are working with.

Yea, no luck on that one.

Also MES, I've just thought of something else. Assuming all of what you said is possible, have you considered parasite drag? Since you have this massive turret sticking out of the fuselage, it would make a lot of drag.

NC we really can't continue at this rate. You have made four IC posts within the last two months.

Please tell us now if you can't continue with this RP; we'll try to barter out a feasible outcome that doesn't destroy continuity for all dependent plots. It will make life a lot easier for everyone.

Yea, no luck on that one.

Also MES, I've just thought of something else. Assuming all of what you said is possible, have you considered parasite drag? Since you have this massive turret sticking out of the fuselage, it would make a lot of drag.

Well, of course. Hense why my plane, even though it carries a lot of Pulse Detonation Engines, that it still flies at sub-mach speed. That said, the turret is streamlined for drag, but obviously would still be a problem. ;)

Edit: Another point is that the B-17 Flying Fortress, BECAUSE of parasites (as you called them), it flew a lot slower than the B-24 at reduced range. Obviously exchanging for defensive firepower.

And for both bombers, they actually had a retractable lower turret, both to reduce drag, and so they don't land on it during landing. :p

Well, of course. Hense why my plane, even though it carries a lot of Pulse Detonation Engines, that it still flies at sub-mach speed. That said, the turret is streamlined for drag, but obviously would still be a problem. ;)

Edit: Another point is that the B-17 Flying Fortress, BECAUSE of parasites (as you called them), it flew a lot slower than the B-24 at reduced range. Obviously exchanging for defensive firepower.

And for both bombers, they actually had a retractable lower turret, both to reduce drag, and so they don't land on it during landing. :p

Ok, heres the deal.

If you have a lot of PDEs (or any engine), your weight increases. Consequency, your stall speed also increase. Therefore you can say that you need a lot of power from your engines so that you can stay flying (becuase we hate crashing, don't we?). Now, parasitic drag is caused by anything sticking out. This may include wheels, said turrets, radios and the like (Your turret can not be steamlined in anyway. Can't be done). It goes in y=a^x fashion. Therefore, the faster you go, the more parasite drag you create. There's a reason why today's planes have a 'sleekness' or 'smoothness' with them.

As for the retractable turret, it only reduces drag until you open it. Because the turret is moving, it makes the drag even worse as your moving the turret aginst the airflow of the plane. And be wary of using prop planes as an example. Today's planes fly a lot more faster then yesteryears. The B-52 goes more then twice as fast as the B-17.

Some of us have other RP's that have been put on hold because events in them are going to be affected by the outcome of this one, and we'd like to get on with them this year.

NC we really can't continue at this rate. You have made four IC posts within the last two months.

Please tell us now if you can't continue with this RP; we'll try to barter out a feasible outcome that doesn't destroy continuity for all dependent plots. It will make life a lot easier for everyone.

So, NC, quit debating physics with MES and just give the man an answer already; is this thing ever going to happen or not?

Thank you Macisikan, I have one or two things on hold myself and would like to get on with it. This has the potential to be really good but if this debate over such a small matter keeps going it will kill it.

Ok, heres the deal.

If you have a lot of PDEs (or any engine), your weight increases. Consequency, your stall speed also increase. Therefore you can say that you need a lot of power from your engines so that you can stay flying (becuase we hate crashing, don't we?). Now, parasitic drag is caused by anything sticking out. This may include wheels, said turrets, radios and the like (Your turret can not be steamlined in anyway. Can't be done). It goes in y=a^x fashion. Therefore, the faster you go, the more parasite drag you create. There's a reason why today's planes have a 'sleekness' or 'smoothness' with them.

As for the retractable turret, it only reduces drag until you open it. Because the turret is moving, it makes the drag even worse as your moving the turret aginst the airflow of the plane. And be wary of using prop planes as an example. Today's planes fly a lot more faster then yesteryears. The B-52 goes more then twice as fast as the B-17.

To counter your points:

A) Pulse Detonation Engines have six times the output of regular jet engines, and they're also lighter, and consume six times less fuel. I have it in my factbook, (not) suprised that you haven't read it. Also conveinient how you didn't mention the increased power input.

B) The turret's streamlined, not retracted. I was using it as an example, not a fact. If you actually looked at the picture, you'll notice that it has a very shallow profile, not a big bulge like on the WWII planes.

C) The aircraft is a flying wing, which means it 1. Has a lot of drag, and 2. Has a lot of lift. The PDE's counteract the drag issue, and thus, has enough lift to lift the massive bird off the ground. Oh, and if you want to see massive, look up the Russian AN-225.

D) Yes, it has a lot of parasites. However, as the lower turret, they're all streamlined, and the landing gear is retractable, obviously.

Anymore questions? Can we (please) get along with it? You're not going to win this OOC war. I know my facts, whereas you obviously don't. :mad:

Some of us have other RP's that have been put on hold because events in them are going to be affected by the outcome of this one, and we'd like to get on with them this year.



So, NC, quit debating physics with MES and just give the man an answer already; is this thing ever going to happen or not?

Mac, it would happen if Farmina wouldn't stop OOC me for every IC post that I do. Most of my posting has been OOC replies to Farmina. You guys aren't the only people that have RPs on hold. I've had to drop a RP that was going well (and is still going), and have others that depend on the result of this war.

MES, let's just continue this on MSN. Until we get the flak sorted out, the planes plot aint moving anywhere.

Mac, it would happen if Farmina wouldn't stop OOC me for every IC post that I do. Most of my posting has been OOC replies to Farmina. You guys aren't the only people that have RPs on hold. I've had to drop a RP that was going well (and is still going), and have others that depend on the result of this war.
I know the thread you are talking about. It strikes me that RP isn't on hold as much as you left to free up troops. Nothing prevented you continuing with that RP (although you did seem to be doing a fair bit of OOC bickering there too).

Anyway, I think there is pretty much agreement from everyone here that your posts tend to be highly objectionable in content. Your soldiers have incredible dodging abilities and your ships seem nearly unsinkable. If we allowed you to get away with your amazing claims; Prime Minister Anderson would probably end up leading the charge mowing down an entire battilion by himself.

Plus there a things that don't involve your claim to immunity from flak that you could post about.

Yes there is Farmina. Time. That war only had a carrier fleet and a few troops in it. So, theres not alot in terms of freeing troops. And as for the OOC thing, I didn't start it, and I couldn't ignore it either.

Farmina, if you haven't read, the ships have just about sunk.

And I'm on to that, it's just impossible to do with OOC bickering.

Look NC, I'll spell it out for you; you've lost this war.

You have nations many times the size and economic power of your own, with better militaries and support from most of your regional neighbours coming to beat you up.

The only real flexibility you have is in how you're going to loose. But losing a war isn't the end of your nation; none of us is inclined to genocide, and none of us has an interest in making our occupation permament, so you get to come back.

Try to loose gracefully, and recognise that out of this are some fantastic RP opportunities (RP'ing your nation's reconstruction for example).


Pre-peace:
Farmina&Friends successfully invades and is beating down the Colonials, driving towards Freedom City from both the east and west; but fails to decisively defeat them. Someone in Colonial machine (possible a representative of the Parliament going behind Anderson’s back) establishes a ceasefire realizing the Colonies are going to lose and should get out while the going is good.

Peace:
The peace is harsh, but not the end of the Colonies. NC is forced to take the blame for nearly everything wrong with the world in a comprehensive guilt clause and is forced to pay the full cost of the war. In addition NC is banned from space, the size of their military is capped, they recognize Rotovian claims to their western waters, recognize the ‘legitimacy’ of Farmina looting every museum and gallery in the Colonies and, most humiliating of all, recognize the puppet state Farmina set up in land they captured in the western part of the Colonies.

That's what's on offer.

Let me spell it out for you.

War aren't won on numbers. Nor tech, or anything else. It is decided on how it is expressed in words. Something that if you keep whining on how its a 6v1 pile-up, won't happen.

I was trying to be nice, and what do I get? Insulted.

Listen, sport; I'm not the one who's been accused of godmodding. So don't start on writing/RP skills.

Nor am I the one who objects to every bit of acceptable technological trickery that others (specifically MES) come up with, so don't you dare accuse me of whining.

Your behaviour, frankly, is bordering on the n00bish. Stop it.

I'm sorry if you feel insulted, but...

Question is, who has accepted it? If MES was worth his technological weight, he would have his weapons peer-reviewed by other designers (I can point to a good site if you need to) before using it in a thread. Don't expect me to have to do it for him, as I have just then. It does kill RPs.

Guys can we move to the neutral corners on this before it gets out of hand.
Yes the turrent's will produce drag and cost weight but if the MES wants to stick them on his bombers they can. People have been doing it for 70+ years so why in the name of God should they stop now. Look at the old B-36 a reasonably fast ( designed in the 40's with a top speed of 435 with jet assist) and large subsonic bomber with B-29 style type turrets. It flew and the only reason it went out of service was the faster B-52 replaced it.
Another real world example is the Russian Bear bomber it has turrets and radar domes sticking out all over the place. Yes there is drag but it still flies.
For a more modern example look at the AWAC or the navies hawk eye both have big ass ed radar domes on top and they produce a lot of drag at high subsonic speed but both aircraft still fly. so can we please move on.
:headbang:
Just to let you guys know I have been war gaming since early 1980 so I know a little about military tec. I may not have the math behind me but I have seen what works. As long as the plane is subsonic it will fly. If the turrets retract it could even go super sonic.

NC, what has the capacity to launch tomahawk missiles almost continuously? I presume you are talking about a submarine; but they don’t tend to actually carry that many projectiles.

Also, you don’t have any bombers over Ricco or Alice to divert and if you did; I doubt they’d arrive in town. Abbey Ruins is closer to a country village than a city.

Also NC; you can't just assume Tarlag has been kind enough to leave very simple to avoid evidence around for the taking. You're aren't allowed to assume all your opponents go by the name of Sgt Shultz and work it out from there.

If MES was worth his technological weight, he would have his weapons peer-reviewed by other designers (I can point to a good site if you need to) before using it in a thread. Don't expect me to have to do it for him, as I have just then. It does kill RPs.

Okay, then. If that's what you want, then go ahead, bring in people to peer-review my technology. Yes, my technology may be SLIGHTLY PMT, but it has solid evidence of being developed in today's modern day. In my nation, the gigantic war brought the military government in over eighty years ago. What do military governments do? Make weapons and develop new ones. Obviously with 80 years of being a first rate military-dictatorship of a nation, that advances in a lot of technology is doable.

On that note, if you also read my factbook, you would also know that these military dictators were actually morally right in their thinking. And since it's a dictatorship, they can get things done rather than bicker in parliment. They've switched from fossel fuels to hydrogen (which has the bonus side effect of allowing mobile hydrogen refineries for land-based invasions to fuel their vehicles), they're using Pulse-Detonation Engines rather than comparetively lackluster jet engines, and they've developed all sorts of new weapons, developed a spray to counteract radiation (for cleanup post-war), developed nuclear-yeild bombs without the nuclear in it. You should be bloody glad that I don't act like a normal nation, because then I would use nuclear weapons on you, turning your citizens into plate glass. Instead, I'm bombing your nations with equally powerful, non-nuclear bombs so you can rebuild. And they're not even in ICBMs, but rather bombers.

And if you ever argue my points again, I'm going to start using my space-based Weapons Satellites. Those are obviously PMT, but I made them as a counter to nuclear missiles. However, by Farmina's request I didn't use them against him. You however, you've yet to listen to my logic.

And if you're so sure that I'm wrong, then post EVIDENCE why. Otherwise, don't complain.

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.....:headbang:

NC, what has the capacity to launch tomahawk missiles almost continuously? I presume you are talking about a submarine; but they don’t tend to actually carry that many projectiles.

Also, you don’t have any bombers over Ricco or Alice to divert and if you did; I doubt they’d arrive in town. Abbey Ruins is closer to a country village than a city.

If you'll remmeber, during the first fleet battle where the ships were on route. Well.. there year. So there's lot of boats there.

And I did mention that bombing mission a few pages down. And there are attacking your units and stuff, not the city itself.

And two things for you. One, how did you get pass the burning tyres. Number two, how did you see the claymores. Three, you men were locked in a cell. They probably would not be going far. And Finally, your aircraft can't just mysteriously come back after coming back.
'

Guys can we move to the neutral corners on this before it gets out of hand.
Yes the turrent's will produce drag and cost weight but if the MES wants to stick them on his bombers they can. People have been doing it for 70+ years so why in the name of God should they stop now. Look at the old B-36 a reasonably fast ( designed in the 40's with a top speed of 435 with jet assist) and large subsonic bomber with B-29 style type turrets. It flew and the only reason it went out of service was the faster B-52 replaced it.
Another real world example is the Russian Bear bomber it has turrets and radar domes sticking out all over the place. Yes there is drag but it still flies.
For a more modern example look at the AWAC or the navies hawk eye both have big ass ed radar domes on top and they produce a lot of drag at high subsonic speed but both aircraft still fly. so can we please move on.
:headbang:
Just to let you guys know I have been war gaming since early 1980 so I know a little about military tec. I may not have the math behind me but I have seen what works. As long as the plane is subsonic it will fly. If the turrets retract it could even go super sonic.

The AWACS are always behind the lines, becuase they are too easy to shoot down. Ditto with the Bear bombers. They fly, but they fly like shit, so I hope MES is RPing that.

Nevertheless, I'll let this one go, provided (and I'm sure Tarlag agrees with me on this) that you can't go rapid fire on the turrets. Nor claim to make a big-assed cloud.

Two points Guys

1) If I am getting the wole turrent argument right there is no reason those turrents can't rapid fire.
A) If they are 30mm chain type guns they would have no problem in rapid fire mode. If MES is eather doing a larger calaber or a realy rapid fire weapon like the avenger (the A-10s gun) then he would have some explaning to do.
B) The bombers stayed subsonic while firing.
2)I cannot comment on the Bear Bomber personaly (however it stayed. in service for 40 years so it can't fly to badly) the awacs is a stable platform and its flight charactoristics are not to bad.
So can we now drop it.

If you'll remmeber, during the first fleet battle where the ships were on route. Well.. there year. So there's lot of boats there.Generally you would say what is firing the missiles. I guess "lots of boats" is better than nothing. I shouldn't have to try and guess what your posting about.

And I did mention that bombing mission a few pages down. And there are attacking your units and stuff, not the city itself.If you are talking about the bombing run I'm thinking about; that was set ages before hand. And it would still be too far away.

And two things for you. One, how did you get pass the burning tyres. Number two, how did you see the claymores. Three, you men were locked in a cell. They probably would not be going far. And Finally, your aircraft can't just mysteriously come back after coming back.
'Fair enough about the holding cell. Doesn't really change much.
Tyres could easily be pushed or blasted out of the way. In this case blown up.

Let me spell it out for you.

War aren't won on numbers. Nor tech, or anything else. It is decided on how it is expressed in words. Something that if you keep whining on how its a 6v1 pile-up, won't happen.

Actually most wars are won on numbers or to a lesser extent tech. WW1, WW2, Napoleonic wars, Crimea, Boer...

I'm not sure what you mean by words (unless you mean Macisikan will conquer us all with wordsmithery). Strategy might make a good third place; but your not exactly the most cunning strategist the world has ever seen.

Anyway who originally tried to create a pile-up? You can barely snide about tactic you introduced to the plot.

The tyres are alight...

MES, I would suggest the NS Draftroom. That said, I would accept either

1. 77mm, but slow firing
2. 30mm, maybe medium speed firing (no massive cloud as you said) but would only be able to do it for short pulses.

With either, you have to RP the wonky characteristics that the plane would no doubt have. You also have to accept that if the wind picked up, then your aircraft with such designed turrets would be grounded (or at lease unable to use said turret).

Tarlag, AWACS can't do large turns. They probably wouldn't fly in windy weather (whereas other planes might). So I assume that MES would do the same with his bombers as well. I also remind you that with the B-36 is relatively slow, with today's bombers more likely to stall that speed.

Farmina, its a NS thing. That is the generally accepted principle (hang on, this is in the stickies, why the hell am I writing this out?)

As for the tech thing, look at wars like the Winter War (and the Continuation War), Vietnam, Iraq (atm).

The tyres are alight...
And this makes them resistant to explosions how?

Farmina, its a NS thing. That is the generally accepted principle (hang on, this is in the stickies, why the hell am I writing this out?)
I suspect you are talking about numbers. It is certainly not generally accepted that numbers are irrelevant; in fact it is accepted that they are incredibly relevant. The stickies also say nothing of the kind; only that numbers aren't everything.

I note your dubious choice of example. Finland lost the Winter war when overwhelmed by numbers. Vietnam ended for political reasons. Iraq is more about Iraqis fighting each other than them fighting Americans.

I guess the real question you need to ask yourself is; why would Anderson think he can win? Does he really believe he is more cunning than the land that bore Dan Rickhart, so much more cunning that he can make the odds turn around?

MES, I would suggest the NS Draftroom.

As I said, if you want to take it to the 'courts', then post it there, and make a link here. Or at least, make the link to the thread or forum here.

That said, I would accept either

1. 77mm, but slow firing
2. 30mm, maybe medium speed firing (no massive cloud as you said) but would only be able to do it for short pulses.

I already said 30mm, medium speed firing. What you don't realise is that 'medium speed firing' is around 500RPM, so in that case, you agree with my calculates. Good, problem dealt with at long last! >_>

And about the explosion, I didn't say that the one shell would cause a massive explosion, I said the COMBINED shells exploding would make that cloud. Look again at the diagram; it shows small explosions, but the cloud it forms. And that's one plane, so imagine a swarm.

With either, you have to RP the wonky characteristics that the plane would no doubt have. You also have to accept that if the wind picked up, then your aircraft with such designed turrets would be grounded (or at least unable to use said turret).

A plane this big (I don't think you realise its scale; I'll have to post a second pic with a plane flying alongside. The small blue strip? The tandem cockpit windows), wouldn't get blown around as much, especially since wind blows on a horizontal plain, and this plane is quite aerodynamic in that regard. It's also not a kite.

The turrets, as I said since they're so flat, would cause a lot less drag, but yes, the recoil and the wind resistance would make a small variance, but since it's so large, it would be negligible, especially with today's avionics technologies for autopilot, etc.

Tarlag, AWACS can't do large turns. They probably wouldn't fly in windy weather (whereas other planes might). So I assume that MES would do the same with his bombers as well. I also remind you that with the B-36 is relatively slow, with today's bombers more likely to stall that speed.

I never said they flew like fighters. Why do you think they're so well armed, armored, and have redundancies in regards to engines? It's because of that lack of speed (and that approximately 150,000lb bombloads they're carrying on this mission). And before you call that a Godmod, the B-52 has a 500,000lb takeoff weight, and that's a fifty year old design!

As for the tech thing, look at wars like the Winter War (and the Continuation War), Vietnam, Iraq (atm).

Those wars (except Iraq II) were many years ago. I'm talking about state of the art technologies, that the US doesn't have in a large abundance. However, if the US mass-produced this new technology (like for the new JSF and F-22 they're designing), then it would become much cheaper.

Could I suggest posts from now on concentrate on the strategic level rather than tactical? On the tactical level everything generally cancels out; but most posters are really discussing tactics (and seem to consider describing standard tactical operations proof of their sheer cunning).

And this makes them resistant to explosions how?


I suspect you are talking about numbers. It is certainly not generally accepted that numbers are irrelevant; in fact it is accepted that they are incredibly relevant. The stickies also say nothing of the kind; only that numbers aren't everything.

I note your dubious choice of example. Finland lost the Winter war when overwhelmed by numbers. Vietnam ended for political reasons. Iraq is more about Iraqis fighting each other than them fighting Americans.

I guess the real question you need to ask yourself is; why would Anderson think he can win? Does he really believe he is more cunning than the land that bore Dan Rickhart, so much more cunning that he can make the odds turn around?

You seem to be alluding otherwise.

Finland killed a lot of the Soviet Army (and thus was able to have more negotiation power during peace talks). It then proceeded to kick the Soviets arse during the Continuation War. Vietnam and Iraq prove exactly my point. You get enough forces killed in a random place, and people will squint their eyes. (I had not even attacked you all that much yet, so that's why my people have not squinted yet)

And Farmina, I have a problem when RPers start to believe their own posts about their country. To Anderson, Rickhart is just another minister. And one that is part of the Farminan problem


.

And this makes them resistant to explosions how?


I suspect you are talking about numbers. It is certainly not generally accepted that numbers are irrelevant; in fact it is accepted that they are incredibly relevant. The stickies also say nothing of the kind; only that numbers aren't everything.

I note your dubious choice of example. Finland lost the Winter war when overwhelmed by numbers. Vietnam ended for political reasons. Iraq is more about Iraqis fighting each other than them fighting Americans.

I guess the real question you need to ask yourself is; why would Anderson think he can win? Does he really believe he is more cunning than the land that bore Dan Rickhart, so much more cunning that he can make the odds turn around?

You seem to be alluding otherwise.

Finland killed a lot of the Soviet Army (and thus was able to have more negotiation power during peace talks). It then proceeded to kick the Soviets arse during the Continuation War. Vietnam and Iraq prove exactly my point. You get enough forces killed in a random place, and people will squint their eyes. (I had not even attacked you all that much yet, so that's why my people have not squinted yet)

And Farmina, I have a problem when RPers start to believe their own posts about their country. To Anderson, Rickhart is just another minister. And one that is part of the Farminan problem


.

I will agree with NC on one point. Farmina is beging to believe his own press. The story line may say he is the greatest thing since sliced bread but the role play may be different.
Now on to the whole numbers matter. Sorry NC both are bad examples to your point.
1) Finland vs USSR the Fin troops were highly trained and better equipped then the Russians. This war happened after Stalin's purges and the Red Army was at that time being lead by untrained officers and political appointees.
You must also remember that Finland lost in the end.

2) Iraq vs USA The US military rolled over the Iraq military in just a few days with few loses on the American side. The problems happening now have nothing to do with the initial taking of the country which we are discussing.

Please do not get me started on Iraq, we should have never invaded in the first place. George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld should be brought up on war crimes for the mess they have created. Yes if you don't know I am an American and a former serviceman.

You seem to be alluding otherwise.
Shell+blockade=no blockade

Finland killed a lot of the Soviet Army (and thus was able to have more negotiation power during peace talks). It then proceeded to kick the Soviets arse during the Continuation War. Vietnam and Iraq prove exactly my point. You get enough forces killed in a random place, and people will squint their eyes. (I had not even attacked you all that much yet, so that's why my people have not squinted yet).
You've lost three fleets and got an entire division stuck in a foriegn country. Lets not mention your own diplomacy turning your region against you and enemy bombers on your door step. I'd call that squinting material!

And Farmina, I have a problem when RPers start to believe their own posts about their country. To Anderson, Rickhart is just another minister. And one that is part of the Farminan problem.
You're one to speak about believing in your own greatness. The only difference is that my characters actually have accomplished great feats against other RPers.

An addendum to Tarlag's post:
And as for Vietnam, there's a big difference; the Vietnamese hadn't hit an American city with rather nasty big explosions, nor did they ever land troops on the American mainland. The Farminans have suffered both an invasion, and more then a few unhappy dead people around the place. They have more then enough incentive to see this through to the bitter end. If you'd tried that stunt on the UIK, we would have broken out the anthrax and mustard gas by now. But we're not as nice as the Farminans.

And if wordsmithery alone won wars, I would be one of the most powerful and feared nations in the NS world; I'm not.

And Farmina, I have a problem when RPers start to believe their own posts about their country. To Anderson, Rickhart is just another minister. And one that is part of the Farminan problem.
You're one to speak about believing in your own greatness. The only difference is that my characters actually have accomplished great feats against other RPers.

Because of the various exploits of his, Dan Rickhart is listed as "an individual of concern" by the Secretariat of State for Imperial Security. In plain English, it means that if he sets foot in the Covenant without SIS sanction, he's not taking that foot anywhere else.

And he's not the best that Farmina has to offer.

Because of the various exploits of his, Dan Rickhart is listed as "an individual of concern" by the Secretariat of State for Imperial Security. In plain English, it means that if he sets foot in the Covenant without SIS sanction, he's not taking that foot anywhere else.

Sigged for wisdom.

Aww, I'm blushing. :D

Actually does that mean he gets to keep the foot if he is invited?

And he gets to keep it attached to the rest of his body too; consider it Imperial largesse.

Getting an invitation on the other hand... well, that's different kettle of fish.

You've lost three fleets and got an entire division stuck in a foriegn country. Lets not mention your own diplomacy turning your region against you and enemy bombers on your door step. I'd call that squinting material!

Thing is, no-ones reported it yet. If you did, it would be on the Colonial Daily. It seems in the midst of everything that is going on, no ones bothered to report it.


You're one to speak about believing in your own greatness. The only difference is that my characters actually have accomplished great feats against other RPers.

That's the problem. When RPers do in that sort of thing, it becomes almost impossible to see beyond that. This results in some god-awful IC role-playing as a result.

In any case, I really don't believe in my own greatness OOCly (For RPing purpose, of course I can play the dynamics that way, makes it more interesting)

And MES, two things.

1. As the nation you are about to invade, I get to pick the weather.
2. You are flying through a storm? That is impossible.

Lets not mention your own diplomacy turning your region against you
Thing is, no-ones reported it yet. If you did, it would be on the Colonial Daily. It seems in the midst of everything that is going on, no ones bothered to report it.


From the Covenant NewsDesk:
+Cabinet Imposes Trade Sanctions+
All sale and trade with Northern Colonies prohibited
Stateholders agree to make embargo Covenant-wide
Cabinet Resolution issued less then an hour after Rotovian move
(two related stories follow)

+Board of Trade endorses Cabinet+
BoT joins Greens in applauding Rotovian embargo on Colonial goods
Board Report finds evidence of "unsavoury trading practices"

+UIK, Akmadar, Expel Colonials+
Covenant-wide action to expel all Colonial citizens initiated
MEA voids all visas and travel permits; confirms detention and deportation order
Statement; "Every Colonial citizen now here is here illegally"
Immigration expects completion of operation within 12 hours

And the Rotovians broadcast their imposition of sanctions, along with Tarlag (who threw in an expulsion/deportation order), the same RL day.

Surely you have someone watching... although it is scary that your government is getting its bad news from CNN...

2. You are flying through a storm? That is impossible.
No. It's a bloody harrowing experience, but not impossible.

1. As the nation you are about to invade, I get to pick the weather.

I also raised this issue with MES. He responded that since the planes weren't over the Colonies that you didn't get to decide the weather.

I must say I had a little trouble swallowing this; although he did say once he approached the targets he would leave the clouds.

A better arguement:
The attackers would delay/move their attack to more appropriate conditions.

As a sidenote in one of the guides I remember a section relating to geography; that although the RPer gets to choose their own geography, they cannot to do so to give themselves an advantage. The same would logically apply to weather (thus declaring that there were no storms for the next three years seems to be a no-no).

If you wanted storms, you should have started invading a month or so ago when NC was blanketed with clouds from the White Winter.

And is he IN Clouds? Or flying above it?

If you wanted storms, you should have started invading a month or so ago when NC was blanketed with clouds from the White Winter.

MES's original post relating to approaching aircraft was made two months ago. I guess this new one is sort of a prod. But thats neither here nor there.


Tarlag; the last part of post 163 is godmod against you by NC if you wish to call it. NC has simply assumed you left the Red O'Shea at the bottom of the ocean AND detonated the blast on the wrong side of the ship. You never mentioned doing either so NC has no right to make the assumption. My main problem here is NC is assuming your men are particularly stupid (but his are clever enough to think of it).

I have all ready had the discussion with NC on the subject and he said that he was going to modify his post.
The Red O'Shay is still their because a Natural gas carrier is huge and we have not had time to salvage it.
Sorry I have not posted lately but things are kind of busy here at the moment I will try to post something later today.

Thing is, no-ones reported it yet. If you did, it would be on the Colonial Daily. It seems in the midst of everything that is going on, no ones bothered to report it.

First of all, how would your media, known for corruption, not even know of a battle that's lasted about two weeks in game time? Are they that blind?

And MES, two things.

1. As the nation you are about to invade, I get to pick the weather.

I also raised this issue with MES. He responded that since the planes weren't over the Colonies that you didn't get to decide the weather.

I must say I had a little trouble swallowing this; although he did say once he approached the targets he would leave the clouds...

...As a sidenote in one of the guides I remember a section relating to geography; that although the RPer gets to choose their own geography, they cannot to do so to give themselves an advantage. The same would logically apply to weather (thus declaring that there were no storms for the next three years seems to be a no-no).

Farmina answered my question for me. First of all, this is weather outside of your nation. International waters in gameplay can be decided on the people involved directly. As I told Farmina, and what I'm about to tell you, is that the clouds will be ending near your coastline, for all fairness. But knowing your history, the reason I didn't ask "What's your weather?", is because your track history with your RP, you would say "Sunny skies from where I'm coming from". War, when it comes to weather, is unpredictable.


2. You are flying through a storm? That is impossible.

No. It's a bloody harrowing experience, but not impossible.

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/hurricane_aircraft.html

Haven't you ever heard of scientific Hurricane aircraft? Surely you have. As well, they aren't modified for hurricane conditions; it's only the equipement they carry. They're just ordinary craft, who can fly right into a hurricane, which are the second most dangerous storms to fly into (the first being a storm with microburts; they take down planes immediately. However, these I think only happen over land).

As well, planes have landed in the day, the night, in sunny days, or 100km/h crosswinds. Or even massive storms, depending on the situation. The only reason why planes tend to avoid bad weather, is because it's a terrible experience for the people on board bouncing all over the place, and that it can be dangerous. They never do it for civilian aircraft because of the risk to civilians, but I bet the military disregards that type of thing for the most part.

I have all ready had the discussion with NC on the subject and he said that he was going to modify his post.
The Red O'Shay is still their because a Natural gas carrier is huge and we have not had time to salvage it.
Sorry I have not posted lately but things are kind of busy here at the moment I will try to post something later today.

I might make a new post in regards to that actually,

First of all, how would your media, known for corruption, not even know of a battle that's lasted about two weeks in game time? Are they that blind?


No, because in the midst of invasion, the destruction of the fleet in on page 5 or 6 or something like that.




Farmina answered my question for me. First of all, this is weather outside of your nation. International waters in gameplay can be decided on the people involved directly. As I told Farmina, and what I'm about to tell you, is that the clouds will be ending near your coastline, for all fairness. But knowing your history, the reason I didn't ask "What's your weather?", is because your track history with your RP, you would say "Sunny skies from where I'm coming from". War, when it comes to weather, is unpredictable.


I would've have given you light clouds. It is the winter.

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/hurricane_aircraft.html

Haven't you ever heard of scientific Hurricane aircraft? Surely you have. As well, they aren't modified for hurricane conditions; it's only the equipement they carry. They're just ordinary craft, who can fly right into a hurricane, which are the second most dangerous storms to fly into (the first being a storm with microburts; they take down planes immediately. However, these I think only happen over land).

As well, planes have landed in the day, the night, in sunny days, or 100km/h crosswinds. Or even massive storms, depending on the situation. The only reason why planes tend to avoid bad weather, is because it's a terrible experience for the people on board bouncing all over the place, and that it can be dangerous. They never do it for civilian aircraft because of the risk to civilians, but I bet the military disregards that type of thing for the most part.

The Military has something called OH&S. It would be stupid to have any plane of yours destroyed, because each plane destroyed represents a big hit on your income.

And the Hurricane Aircraft fly above the hurricane. That's fine. I'm asking you for clarification. Are you staying within the cloud, or on top of it.

No, because in the midst of invasion, the destruction of the fleet in on page 5 or 6 or something like that.

Sounds rather page 1 to me.

The only way that would be on page five or six is if the government of the Northern Colonies had total control of their media.

Yeah...doesn't Pearl Harbour ring a bell? :confused:

Or Self-Censorship.

It has been established that the Colonial Daily is in support of this war. I would no be surprised if there are blogs reporting this. But for most part, people have read it, but are really paying more attention to the impending invasion.

And MES, to make it easy for you to see what I am saying.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3743/untitledpd1.th.png (http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitledpd1.png)

The grey represent storm clouds. Are you at A, B or C?

I've decided as since it's going to be too hard to explain, and you're about as flexible as an I-Beam of TITANIUM, I'm just completely rewriting the post. I'm flying at the previously stated altitude of 20,000-30,000 meters. However, editing the post is because I can't do it in a way that it would be fair on both sides.

However, it IS possible for planes to fly through violent storms. Re-read the link, it SPECIFICALLY says THROUGH clouds. Read the gawd damned links! :headbang:

Here's another link: http://www.publicaffairs.noaa.gov/grounders/winteraircraft.html

The old post is here, for reference and backup (as it's being rewritten):

Pilot Steve Johnson kept his plane flying in a close box formation, similar to the one used during the United States bombing raids in World War II, with his flight of XB-200 Stratoannihilators. High above him were the Silencers, while around out of site was the fighter wing, doing arching maneuvers, searching for enemy fighters. The fighter's contrails lit up the sky where the fighters were. Down below, Johnson noticed that there was a large weather storm down below his bomber wing. Being flight leader, he decided to take advantage of the storm to cover both the radar trail, and visibility. Since they have radio silence until they were over Northern Colonies soil, he slowly wiggled his wings, then brought his plane down a significant altitude towards the clouds below. The bombers followed suit.

As the bombers flew into the cloud, the bomber shook significantly from the turbulance, but as the plane leveled out, the turbulance started to quel down somewhat, the plane's massive wing design, combined with massive stabilizers and computer-assisted controls helped the flying characteristics. The plane still shook, and the pilot ocassionally felt weightless or heavier as the plane rose higher and lower. "Activating microwave-satellite transciever," the co-pilot said emotionlessly. The radar display, which was covered in green distortion and snow, was replaced with green dots signifying the two-hundred bombers, as well as a wireframe overview of the land that they were flying towards. The bomber kept shaking, then a large jolt had the pilots leave their seats, though their restraints kept them from flying out of them.

"Damn, the Colonies do get some pretty bad storms, don't they?" the co-pilot commented.

Johnson chuckled. "We've reached 1,700 meters. This should put us smack-dab into our storm system."

The computer started beeping, noting the wind-shear and high winds. "They build these planes tough, don't they?" Johnson said back, though the co-pilot's thoughts were to the navigation. "We should be coming up towards the Colonial air defenses soon. They won't see us coming through this muck."

"Navigation lights off," the pilot said in kind, flashing his lights before shutting them off. The other planes shut theirs off, as their planes flew towards their first targets: Colonial towns and small cities with known industries.

Okay, about the media. So you only have one newspaper? What about television? Other newspapers? So you're saying that all your people have for news is the Colonial Daily newspaper? And if not, wouldn't they say something else, or is your entire nation brainwashed by some elaborate psuedo-psychotic despot scheme?

The answer on the news paper issue is simple the Colonial government controls the media. The old USSR were very effective at it and so were the Japanese in WW2.
To give a good example of this which has a lot of bering on our current argument is the battle of Midway. The old imperial government had such a tight control over their press that the common man did not know about the navies defeat until after the war. Even most members of the navy did not know what happened until six months after the fact.

Hmm...perhaps. But since this is happening close to the mainland, as well as navy servicemen and servicewomen calling their families about the attack, it would at least leak.

Depending on how paranoid the NC Government is they could do what the Japanese did and have the survivors segregated for a period of time.
The airmen who survived Midway were kept under wraps for up to one year after the battle. In this short period of time it is very plausible that the general population has no clue about the sinking of their fleet.

Interesting matter propaganda really. But if the Colonial papers suddenly stop talking about an entire fleet people will read between the lines (unless NC wants to claim his people are all incredibly thick; which is unadvisable). Plus these days there is a thing called the internet. You can also pick up radio transmissions from other countries; which often provide useful facts. Propaganda is good for blurring the truth; making it disappear completely is far more difficult.

I don't know on that one a lot of Americans still believe there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. People prefer to believe the safe answer over the right answer sometimes. It is better to think you invaded a country to save lives and to liberate a people then the real answer.

Okay, about the media. So you only have one newspaper? What about television? Other newspapers? So you're saying that all your people have for news is the Colonial Daily newspaper? And if not, wouldn't they say something else, or is your entire nation brainwashed by some elaborate psuedo-psychotic despot scheme?

Read the backstory. Basically the two biggest media CEOs are corroborating together, because Peter (not the head of the Colonial Daily) has an agenda (which hasn't been revelled yet). So I guess you could say its kind of psychotic, but its not the leaders at fault.

As for the pilots. You have to consider (as well) that the NOAA pilots have speciality training to fly into storms. Most pilots just won't cut it nor would do it. Especially bomber pilots. And I don't think they cruise fly in the storm. I have many a horror stories of pilots flying into clouds and then losing all sense of direction (I'm currently training as a civil pilot) and ruining their day.

And I don't think they cruise fly in the storm. I have many a horror stories of pilots flying into clouds and then losing all sense of direction (I'm currently training as a civil pilot) and ruining their day.

First of all, I'll give you that; they probably do get special training. However, nowadays most planes above the four-seater planes have electronic navagation equipment, horizonal horizons compasses, radar, and GPS. It would be hard to anyone except for an inexperienced pilot.

But this problem is mute now since I modified the post.

First of all, I'll give you that; they probably do get special training. However, nowadays most planes above the four-seater planes have electronic navagation equipment, horizonal horizons compasses, radar, and GPS. It would be hard to anyone except for an inexperienced pilot.

But this problem is mute now since I modified the post.

Yea that's fine.

Just as a postscript though, all that fancy equipment is worthless if the pilot can't fly though that. The NOAA training is quite specialised (you wouldn't use much of the actual skill being taught anywhere else), so it's very unlikely that an ambitious fighter or bomber pilot would get though the (maybe) the 10 week course required.

Sorry about the delay. I probably post tommorrow or wednesday

With somber resignation; I hereby feel obliged to call this topic dead, that is to say the thread is ignored by myself.

Several reasons exist for this, primarily the massive time it is taking for even the smallest things to occur; I cannot see this RP being completed within the year, and probably not the next either. NC this is particularly (but not solely) targeted at you. You haven’t made an IC post in 23 days (until today), in the last four months you have made a whopping seven IC posts. And after waiting for 23 days; the issues of offensives against you on every front have not been given a single reference.

There were also issues relating to posting styles that can only be described as irreconcilable differences. The two capacity of two RPers (no names) to get into massive brawls over minor details [*cough* flak *cough*] didn’t help.

Macisikan also tried to suggest some sort of OOC comprise outcome. That NC dismissed this so out of hand, ended any chance of OOC peace.

The final straw was NC’s latest post that is godmoded in a similar way to the one it is supposed to be replacing. It assumes the stupidity of the opponent. Being a gas liner; the O’Shea would only need a very small blast to detonate (I assume the Colonials would have torpedoes of at least that size). Tarlag was also provided by Farmina some idea of Colonial firepower. Unless the Colonials are incapable of sinking ships, the post (if made without Tarlag’s prior knowledge) can be nothing less than a godmod. If Tarlag acquiesced to the post then I am indeed surprised; but there were already sufficient nails in the coffin.

This ignore is not binding on anyone else; but I cannot foresee the continuation with my absence. I am sorry it had to end this way; but I saw no other alternative (other than Palmer suddenly surrendering in a fit of lunacy).

I'd like to point out that if the O'Shea was a gas tanker, the only bit you'd ever find would be the keel, driven metres into the seabed. Those things go off with a bang. In any case, you have no idea if the ship was hit with a Tarlagi torpedo, a torpedo from a Macisikani Privateer (and no way of proving which one did it, if either), or if it was blown up by Tarlagi intelligence from the inside (to name just three possibilities).

But really, I'm with Farmina; this is beyond a joke, and I'm slapping an ignore on it.

Yes the ship is still there. the only torpedo that detonated hit near the screws. A second NC torp. that was a "dud" was found near the sunken hull.
NC and myself have discussed the torpedo and the sinking of the ship. NC did go about it a little to fast blaming Tarlag for the sinking and announcing it in his newspaper. I was thinking he would approach someone with the information he gathered to confirm the evidence befor it was announced.

OK just for every ones knowledge here is what really happened to the
Red O'Shay so maybe we can salvage this role play.
Certain elements in my government wanted to enter the war with the Colonies so they faked the attack on the O'Shay using one of our AI mini subs. They then planted a Captured NC Torpedo we got from Farmina ( with out their knowledge of what was going to be done with it) along with other evidence. This was a rush job By people with little knowledge of naval architecture so it was not perfect and there were some holes in the evidence. I left these holes their onperpous hoping someone would pick them up.
The main problem we are having is that more postes need to be done on the role play side and less on the OCC side. If we can pick up the pace on posting this can be salvaged. Sorry NC posting once every two to three weeks is not making it. I have been waiting for at least a week and a half for the response to my missile attack and I am still waiting. If we do not want to go on with the war can we at least negotiate something for God sakes. I eather want to finish this war or have some sort of closer to this storyline.

I have to say, I agree with Farmina's statement. That's all I'm going to comment on the matter.

Tarlag; No. I've had it up to here, and I have better things to do with my time then this farce of a RP. And I'm willing to bet that Farmina and MES feel the same way.

I am not going to disagree with you on this I am just letting you know what is going on. This war should of ended about a month ago if the posts were kept up. I have turned down other role play opportunities to be in this one.
I will admit to being a bit disappointed that it sank faster then the Red O'Shay.

This war should of ended about a month ago if the posts were kept up. I have turned down other role play opportunities to be in this one.

I've done the same thing, which is why my temper is so frayed.

My only problem is the ones I were invited to are either to far along for me to jump in or they are over.

Before you two take off on us, we're moving on on the plot, so if you guys want to tag along to Farminan-Messian relations after this war, I personally invite you, though the Farminan over there might disagree.

I will admit to being a bit disappointed that it sank faster then the Red O'Shay.

I wish it sank quickly. Unfortunately it sank very slowly. A lot of RPing (even some quality stuff) went into the plot; and so much of it is wasted, so much time. Still the coming RP "In at the Kill" should turn a frown into a smile (MES is going to get whats coming to him. So are Rickhart and Palmer. Along with the rest of the ungrateful characters who won't bow before Tobias Grey...)

I am not going to disagree with you on this I am just letting you know what is going on. This war should of ended about a month ago if the posts were kept up. I have turned down other role play opportunities to be in this one.
I will admit to being a bit disappointed that it sank faster then the Red O'Shay.

Thing is, most of the posting went OOC way

Before you two take off on us, we're moving on on the plot, so if you guys want to tag along to Farminan-Messian relations after this war, I personally invite you, though the Farminan over there might disagree.

Hey I'm in on that, their was some very good role playing happening and if we can keep that going it would be great. I could also do the governmental shakeup I had planned from the beginning.

My only question is how do we proceed?

In regards to this war, I guess Tarlag could come in with say a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_Quo_Ante_Bellum agreement.

But what about Farmina and the MES? The Status Quo Ante Bellum would work for some members of my government but not all. The Order, most of the Council of Lords and about half of the Military's High Command would not find this acceptable.
It would also be a good Idea to find a reason for the war to suddenly end.
The only alternative would be to play from the point of the wars logical conclusion.
Lets say the landings happened some inroads were made into NC territory but before there were massive losses on both sides some form of settlement was reached.

You've mentioned on TG that this news report might send your gov crazy. Maybe your government could do that to save face.

Unfortunely, this this is the fate of most RPs in II

You've mentioned on TG that this news report might send your gov crazy. Maybe your government could do that to save face.

Unfortunely, this this is the fate of most RPs in II


the only problem with the Northern Colonies past track recored no one beleives their press.

I could do a report release from the gov

This roleplay is officially ignored, NC. Finito. We covered this already, and if you did, the response would be ignored.

But, I( and maybe Tarlag too) have RPs planned that links into this one. So we need to find a way to resolve it without looking stupid.

But, I( and maybe Tarlag too) have RPs planned that links into this one. So we need to find a way to resolve it without looking stupid.

Too late.

When you say that there's too much OOC bickering, who does most of it? You. You are the one that always protests with this, with that, with something, with someone. For every argument you post, you never post ANY evidence on why you were right, and we were wrong. Every single bloody time I posted something you didn't agree with, you never, ever read my links. My links explains exactly why my technologies work. They are based on fact. All my specs are on my factbook, which is linked in my signature. To RP properly in wars, you must do research. My only technology that is not based on fact are my weapons satellites; the reason I get away with this is because I use them in lieu of nukes; it gives RPers a reason why they don't have to leave irradiated countries. I made the weapon in RP so that way I can reduce casualties, but still make a statement.


To quote Farmina:

...Several reasons exist for this, primarily the massive time it is taking for even the smallest things to occur; I cannot see this RP being completed within the year, and probably not the next either. NC this is particularly (but not solely) targeted at you. You haven’t made an IC post in 23 days (until today), in the last four months you have made a whopping seven IC posts. And after waiting for 23 days; the issues of offensives against you on every front have not been given a single reference.

That's one of the problems. We have lives too, but we still make time in a day to reply. I think you were intentionally stalling.

...There were also issues relating to posting styles that can only be described as irreconcilable differences. The two capacity of two RPers (no names) to get into massive brawls over minor details [*cough* flak *cough*] didn’t help.

I admit having this issue, but it was you that always brought up the problems, while I always backed up my technologies and situations with fact. Then you reply with statements in OOC that completely contradict what I state, showing that you didn't read it at all. (For example, the plane flying into a hurricane, which you replied with that they flew over them). I covered this earlier in this specific post.

...Macisikan also tried to suggest some sort of OOC comprise outcome. That NC dismissed this so out of hand, ended any chance of OOC peace.

That's the other issue.

...The final straw was NC’s latest post that is godmoded in a similar way to the one it is supposed to be replacing. It assumes the stupidity of the opponent. Being a gas liner; the O’Shea would only need a very small blast to detonate (I assume the Colonials would have torpedoes of at least that size). Tarlag was also provided by Farmina some idea of Colonial firepower. Unless the Colonials are incapable of sinking ships, the post (if made without Tarlag’s prior knowledge) can be nothing less than a godmod. If Tarlag acquiesced to the post then I am indeed surprised; but there were already sufficient nails in the coffin.

Although you did fix this, this highlighted another issue. Although I posted slightly futuristic and state-of-the-art technologies, you actually godmodded, without any research on said technologies, techniques, or situations. And as Farmina said, it was the last straw.

For example, how the gas-liner needs a big blast (read: the Halifax Explosion; where a munitions and a gas ship blew up Halifax with a nuke-strength explosion), how your men somehow snuck into a nation which is at war, and has a complete lockdown, how your men could possibly outsmart soldiers who were at guard, ready to shoot at a single movement, how your stealth bombers were completely invisible to fighter cover (the thing with Stealth technologies, is that they've never really been tested against patrolling fighter-jets to my knowledge; it's been usually used in air-superiority missions), how your fleet could somehow survive an attack from over a thousand aircraft (where in World War II only a quarter of that could sink it all) without sinking, or being completely sunk in one pass, while being bombarded by not one but two surface fleets, and other, smaller things that you've RP'd.

Honestly, if you want to continue this in any form, you must take one good close look at how you RP, before I even consider doing this again.

Thing is, most of the posting went OOC way

Which, as I stated earlier, was mainly initialised by you, stating that there was a problem with one (and many) of our posts.

But what about Farmina and the MES? The Status Quo Ante Bellum would work for some members of my government but not all.

Wouldn't work. Why?

Snyder is doing it for revenge, for the NC failing them in the invasion of Farmina.
Farmina is doing it for revenge of the MOAB attack.
NC is doing it out of patriotism and stubbornness.

This is not a situation where that kind of result would be plausable.

Lets say the landings happened some inroads were made into NC territory but before there were massive losses on both sides some form of settlement was reached.

This would be even less likely; we outnumber NC at least two to one, he's cut off while we have a full force on him, he's not a military country but a democratic nation, and Snyder's men were going to bomb city centers with no regard for Northern Colonists' lives. As well, Farmina has tanks and troops which are highly mobile; designed for Blitzkreig style of attacks, while the Messian troops are equipped for holding the line, with much heavier tanks, and heavier infantry weapons (all troops have a clip-loaded grenade launcher attached to their rifles, for example). If NC could hold the line against Farmina, they would be stopped by the Messian slow advance.

The only possible resolution that I could imagine for this war, is total defeat, with high losses on both sides, but both of our nations have succeeded in winning, destroying NC's leadership, and stealing his art galleries.

But, I( and maybe Tarlag too) have RPs planned that links into this one. So we need to find a way to resolve it without looking stupid.

As I said in this entire posts, the blame is mainly centered on you. You took months to take care of a phase of battle that should have taken two weeks to roleplay. You've argued with many facts, and have never budged. I'm sorry that I'm ruining your plot, but you've ruined ours, and unless you are serious about cutting this OOC bullshit, I can't see how this could possible continue.

...
Down boy! You can stop mauling him now.


I must say I can't foresee a reasonable outcome being negotiated. The powers against NC would want a harsh peace, certainly harsher than Status Quo Ante Bellum. NC however insists on Status Quo Ante Bellum (although such an offer was never extended to Farmina and in fact was rejected out of hand when proposed). NC will refuse to accept he would have been beaten; the powers against him would say that it was a near certainty.

And if anyone believed a press lease from the Colonial government after their foriegn minister was arrested during diplomatic negotiations, said person is a fool.

Although you did fix this, this highlighted another issue. Although I posted slightly futuristic and state-of-the-art technologies, you actually godmodded, without any research on said technologies, techniques, or situations. And as Farmina said, it was the last straw.


For example, how the gas-liner needs a big blast (read: the Halifax Explosion; where a munitions and a gas ship blew up Halifax with a nuke-strength explosion),

Actually it was weaker then the first atomic nuclear explosion. That said, it had been negotiated earlier.

how your men somehow snuck into a nation which is at war, and has a complete lockdown,

This has been, and continuously will be done in every one. The crux is, it is impossible to just lockdown a nation and assume no one can sneak in.

how your men could possibly outsmart soldiers who were at guard, ready to shoot at a single movement,



how your stealth bombers were completely invisible to fighter cover (the thing with Stealth technologies, is that they've never really been tested against patrolling fighter-jets to my knowledge; it's been usually used in air-superiority missions),

Had Farmina actually wrote in that Stealth thing ICly, I would have accepted it. He didn't. Infact, he just assume he could fire at it.

...how your fleet could somehow survive an attack from over a thousand aircraft (where in World War II only a quarter of that could sink it all) without sinking, or being completely sunk in one pass, while being bombarded by not one but two surface fleets, and other, smaller things that you've RP'd.


You didn't really cover logistics either (and I didn't whine about that either). 1000 planes need a hell of a lot of aircraft carriers to support them, or fuel.


Honestly, if you want to continue this in any form, you must take one good close look at how you RP, before I even consider doing this again.

You too mate. Farmina (and this comes from another RPer, not me) can't really RP wars properly.

This has been, and continuously will be done in every one. The crux is, it is impossible to just lockdown a nation and assume no one can sneak in.

Then I'd like to see you sneak into the United States in a World War II-type of alert status, with modern technologies, patrols, and radar up the wazoo. >_>

Had Farmina actually wrote in that Stealth thing ICly, I would have accepted it. He didn't. Infact, he just assume he could fire at it.

Perhaps.

You didn't really cover logistics either (and I didn't whine about that either). 1000 planes need a hell of a lot of aircraft carriers to support them, or fuel.

I've already covered that too. First of all, they did it in World War II continuously with full-scale bombers on a daily basis! Secondly, my planes use the numerously previous mentioned Pulse Detonation Engines, which create six times the output for six times less fuel. That deals with the fuel logistic in that regard. And third, not all of my bombing runs are as large scale as this; after the initial massive bombing wave, it's brought down to bombing missions rather than mass-scale air-superiority-making strikes.

And last but not least, I specifically said they launched from the MES, and used droptanks to make it that far.

You too mate. Farmina (and this comes from another RPer, not me) can't really RP wars properly.

No, I don't. Everytime I've posted one of these things, no one's ever questioned me about anything except once, and that was the weather thing and fairness. I quickly corrected it once I realised how hard it was to do fairly for both sides. You usually drag out these complaints on and on and on, and almost never change a post when you know you're wrong. There were five major RP'ers in this, and the only one that ragged on me, was you. As for you, everyone else ragged on you.

Guys insted of pointing fingers and debating things that do not need to be debated any longer could we please figure out a logical conclusion to this war.

Also just for everyones knowledge I was the one who fobared on the gas carrier I should have said it was empty or the like to explain why the hull was still mostly intact.

*Pours cold water on MES and NC*

Guys insted of pointing fingers and debating things that do not need to be debated any longer could we please figure out a logical conclusion to this war.

Thought I should mention this; anyone who mentions status quo ante bellum to the UIK parliament will get laughed out of the building.

And anyone who thinks that any Covenant parliament will believe the NC press after Sar'Dahl needs to get their head checked.

Thought I should mention this; anyone who mentions status quo ante bellum to the UIK parliament will get laughed out of the building.

And anyone who thinks that any Covenant parliament will believe the NC press after Sar'Dahl needs to get their head checked.

This is the problem NC your Government and press have ZERO credibility with any ones Government right now. If you had never tried to bring Reformed Oceania into the war the Duke would of launched an independent investigation into the sinking.
If we do not wish to Role play the war out my original suggestion still stands the Government of NC surrenders shortly after the invasion.
To make this more believable NC you could have the current Government overthrown and the new rulers are the ones making the peace. If this is the case I am sure you would get a much better deal, at least form us.

I doubt NC will accept anything less than equal peace, and he certainly won't accept an unconditional surrender.
A conditional surrender that demands the Northern Colonies continues to exist as a soveriegn political entity strikes me as a fair and accurate solution. This would probably see NC become a subordinate "ally" of Rotovia, Macisikan, Tarlag and possibly Farmina.

A conditional surrender that demands the Northern Colonies continues to exist as a soveriegn political entity strikes me as a fair and accurate solution. This would probably see NC become a subordinate "ally" of Rotovia, Macisikan, Tarlag and possibly Farmina.

The Daíl would agree to that, after some bickering amongst themselves. But they'd also want, at the very least, for NC to sign a non-aggression pact with Farmina, which includes consequences should NC ever renounce or break it.

The Daíl would agree to that, after some bickering amongst themselves. But they'd also want, at the very least, for NC to sign a non-aggression pact with Farmina, which includes consequences should NC ever renounce or break it.

The Grand Duke and the Council of Lords would find this a most acceptable solution to this problem.

The Grand Duke and the Council of Lords would find this a most acceptable solution to this problem.

The NC government would probably be not fine with that as well.

Which leads to the fact we need to find a way to finish this.

And if you have been wondering why I haven't had time to post. I've had a lot of personal issues which I will not reveal on a public forum

The NC government would probably be not fine with that as well.

Which leads to the fact we need to find a way to finish this.

And if you have been wondering why I haven't had time to post. I've had a lot of personal issues which I will not reveal on a public forum

I can only speak for myself on this but I do not want to spend the next six months finishing one battle. I can understand having a lot of personal issues, both my Dad and my wife's Dad died within a month of each other this spring. I also bought a house this summer so I know where you are coming from. What I don't understand is why you do not want to settle the war here and now under favorable terms.
The offer being put forward seems fair for the situation you are in and will give you a lot of RP possibilities when your life clears up. We do a quick simple treaty and everyone goes home happy. The other way we spend a LONG time on OCC posts, weeks between battle posts, and most of the players become frustrated with what is going on and leave cursing the Colonies as they go.
Please NC if you have a better Idea then what has been presented lets hear it.

Forget it Tarlag, he won't accept anything less then "NC pwns ALL!" as an outcome.

If this ever comes to a resolution that isn't going to have me shaking my head in disgust, someone wake me up.

Well.. Wake up

If you would remember when we had the negotiation thread. If you take that deal, I would be fine.

Well.. Wake up

If you would remember when we had the negotiation thread. If you take that deal, I would be fine.

I don't think that one would be accepted by any party and is radically out of date (it doesn't even mention Tarlag and assumes Tobias Grey is president).
The situation has changed so if it was rejected then, it will certainly be rejected now.

Well.. Wake up

If you would remember when we had the negotiation thread. If you take that deal, I would be fine.

Absolutely out of the question.

If we were to restart negotiations a few things would have to happen.

1) All parties would have to be included.
2) posts would have to be timely.
3) NC is going to have to Negotiate in good faith. ( Sorry NC but my people do not trust your Government.)

I would love this to have a speedy conclusion. The only problem is that NC wants to come out of this RP with no consequences which is not going to happen.

Well.. Wake up

If you would remember when we had the negotiation thread. If you take that deal, I would be fine.

As Macisikan said, absolutely out of the question. You yourself corrupted the peace by stealing, then destroying the evidence of the tape. I highly doubt that ANYONE would try to negotiate with anyone in your country that is not the President; if it's the President, there's accountability. By the negotiations thread, our nations' (plural) trust in your diplomats are completely tarnished.

Face it; you can't go into a war without consequences outside of military losses.

In At The Kill (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=511011). Happy posting, and please no bullshit posting for the love of God. :rolleyes:

P.S. Sorry NC, but you're not invited in this RP; you've been ignored out of the storyline, and I can't see how you could get re-involved. As well, since this is a combo war/political drama, I doubt, from your track record, that you can do this fairly.

As this thread has been buried for over a month, I consider this The Hawk Strikes, buried and closed.