NationStates Jolt Archive

well... here's where we can keep all the OOC stuff
Linky to IC thread (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=492273)
Linky to recruitment (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=491906)
Linky to farmina's page;) (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi)

I have a question. is there someone RPing the Northern colonies or what?

I have a question. is there someone RPing the Northern colonies or what?

NC is an actual player.

same name?

cuz i havent seen him post

same name?

cuz i havent seen him post

He's real, just do a search for the name and you'll find him.

Linky? XD

I'll get them in a min, but I only have the IC thread and the recruitment thread... I got my details from Farmina...

Official Farminan Stamp of Approval

In the morning, I'm going to make a big post with my organization and the senior officers and officials.

Ok then... first off, we need NC here, and what the hell is up with these diplomat things? should we just host a conference where everyone can see what they say?

NC will probably be around later this afternoon; its midday where he lives now. This issue already has two conferences running; one in Tarlag (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=490919), one in Macisikan (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=484706). However new participants are not very welcome. President Grey has also made it clear there has been enough talking; and that it is his opinion that talking to liars and fools is a waste of time. Transcripts of the Macisikani conference are public. If you want to be able to refer to the occurences in Tarlag; you will need to ask a nation that was there.

yea, sorry about that, i tend to post at about 9-11ish (GMT +10) during weekdays, cause im busy with school and all that.

ok first issue, I've got no damn idea how im gonna do 6 meetings at once. I'll try thou.

Also, Illnor. I cant get your nation on NS. Link please?

Farmina would notice its allies aren't following through and that Colonial delegates are flying in. And I doubt that Hawk Coalition leaders are going to keep these discussions secret. Trying to be objective is barely secret.

http://www.nationstates.net/Illior

yea, sorry about that, i tend to post at about 9-11ish (GMT +10) during weekdays, cause im busy with school and all that.

ok first issue, I've got no damn idea how im gonna do 6 meetings at once. I'll try thou.

Also, Illior. I cant get your nation on NS. Link please?

oh... an aussie have we?

Nc, Tg.

Greater, Just wondering... How do you intend to get one submarine through a net of over 5,000 ships and subs, all actively pinging away, or get a helicopter through the air net?

Right now we're just tryign to get some assets in place.

I'm not entirely sure whats gonna happen. personally, i find it a little stupid to have twenty countries pound the crap outta one country. It doesn't leave much room for fun......

Right now we're just tryign to get some assets in place.

I'm not entirely sure whats gonna happen. personally, i find it a little stupid to have twenty countries pound the crap outta one country. It doesn't leave much room for fun......

you and I could have a fun sub chase though...

hey i was just wondering

is there a map in the works for the Northern colonies?

It would help to know how much open sea there is to work with.

Right now we're just tryign to get some assets in place.

I'm not entirely sure whats gonna happen. personally, i find it a little stupid to have twenty countries pound the crap outta one country. It doesn't leave much room for fun......
I'm under the impression that the ISAF will get involved to help their ally. The Commonwealth is watching that closely because two member of the ISAF are SF's close allies. Either way I hope the ISAF gets involved so it evens it out or I hope someone jumps ship before anything happens.

Northern Colonies: just warning you... you're about to have the wrath of 5,000 ships on your fleet outside of farmina pretty soon... you might want to have them run...

Northern Colonies: just warning you... you're about to have the wrath of 5,000 ships on your fleet outside of farmina pretty soon... you might want to have them run...
lol ouch thats a ton of ships thats just a little much considering there's already six or seven nations against NC.

5,000 is probably a little excessive. Especially when the Colonial homeland has been repeatedly emphasised as a prefered target.

Plus, logistics. You can have 5,000 ships, but don't expect them to last very long.

Plus, logistics. You can have 5,000 ships, but don't expect them to last very long.
meh... I like to round up too much...

oh... an aussie have we?

yea

I'm under the impression that the ISAF will get involved to help their ally. The Commonwealth is watching that closely because two member of the ISAF are SF's close allies. Either way I hope the ISAF gets involved so it evens it out or I hope someone jumps ship before anything happens.

im trying to bug them atm, lol

we'll c how we go

hey i was just wondering

is there a map in the works for the Northern colonies?

It would help to know how much open sea there is to work with.

maps posted on the main thread. Realistically though, you only attack option is to the East of the country.

Any particular reason why?

Northern Colonies: I hope we can get to those talks soon, this inaction is killing me.

im trying to bug them atm, lol

we'll c how we go
I;m trying to bug Kahanistan and Xirnium...I have an alliance with them and in this case I'd be on the opposite side...which could create some major drama.

I do not know what Kahanistan's view of this conflict is, but I do know that Xirnium sees both the Farminan Government and the Northern Colonies Government as a bunch of crooks. In an earlier diplomatic statement Xirnium declared that it in no way found the Farminan Government de jure and in the same statement it condemed the Colonies...

So I really doubt the Eternal Republic would get involved in anyway militarily as Xirnium has a long history of staying out of "meaningless wars" over matters that are not in its national interest (and this conflict fits the bill perfectly).

Any particular reason why?

you have to go through Rotovia, Crete to get to a strike position. Plus, beware the submarines. If you want to keep the carriers safe, you have to strike east.

Is there an organization table or any listings for your military and their deployment(s)? Inluding outside of operation full hosue.

I found this in my old region

Military strength: 10,000,000 men

Air force: 3,500,000 Front line: 350,000
-38 F-15C Eagle
-18 F-15E Eagle
-1248 F-16 Fighting Falcon
-40 F-22 Raptor
-35 YF-23 Black Widow II
-60 F-35 Marine Version (V-TOL)
-35 A-10/OA-10 Thunderbolt II
-5 AC-130H Spectre/ AC-130U Spooky
-26 B-1B Lancer
-95 B-52 Stratofortress
-10 B-2 Spirit
-49 C-130 Hercules
-40 C-141B Starlifter
-20 C-5B Galaxy
-7 E-3 Sentry (AWACS)
-8 Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System (Joint STARS / JSTARS)
-4 P-3 Orion
-10 KC-10A Extender
-12 KC-135R Stratotanker
-20 V-22 Osprey
-30 CH/HH-3
-4 EF-111A Raven
-2 EC-130H Compass Call

H&K USP for all pilots, M-4 Carbine Rifes for Air Special Forces units.


Navy: 2,000,000 men Front line: 200,000

1st NC Carrier Fleet
1 Nimitz class aircraft carrier - NCS Pride of the Colonies
-48 F/A-18 Hornets
-four E-2C AEW
-four E-A6B SEAD/EW
-eight S-3B
-two Es-3A
-six H-60
2 Bismarck class Battleships NCS Zeus, NCS Power (Navy considering upgades)
2Ticonderoga class guided missile cruisers - NCS Courageous, NCS Invincible
1 Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyer - NCS Protector
3 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates - NCS Guardian, NCS Governors, NCS O'Johnsten
2 Los Angeles class attack submarines - NCS Sneaker, NCS Destroyer
1 Supply class fast combat support ship - NCS Supporter

2nd Carrier Fleet
1 Nimitz class aircraft carrier
-48 F/A-18 Hornets
-four E-2C AEW
-four E-A6B SEAD/EW
-eight S-3B
-two Es-3A
-six H-60
2 Ticonderoga class guided missile cruisers
1 Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyer
3 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates
2 Los Angeles class attack submarines
1 Supply class fast combat support ship


3rd Carrier Fleet
1 Nimitz class aircraft carrier
-48 F/A-18 Hornets
-four E-2C AEW
-four E-A6B SEAD/EW
-eight S-3B
-two Es-3A
-six H-60
2 Ticonderoga class guided missile cruisers
1 Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyer
3 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates
2 Los Angeles class attack submarines
1 Supply class fast combat support ship

4th Carrier Fleet
1 Nimitz class aircraft carrier
-48 F/A-18 Hornets
-four E-2C AEW
-four E-A6B SEAD/EW
-eight S-3B
-two Es-3A
-six H-60
2 Ticonderoga class guided missile cruisers
1 Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyer
3 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates
2 Los Angeles class attack submarines
1 Supply class fast combat support ship


5th Carrier Fleet
1 Nimitz class aircraft carrier
-48 F/A-18 Hornets
-four E-2C AEW
-four E-A6B SEAD/EW
-eight S-3B
-two Es-3A
-six H-60
2 Ticonderoga class guided missile cruisers
1 Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyer
3 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates
2 Los Angeles class attack submarines
1 Supply class fast combat support ship


6th Carrier Fleet
1 Nimitz class aircraft carrier
-48 F/A-18 Hornets
-four E-2C AEW
-four E-A6B SEAD/EW
-eight S-3B
-two Es-3A
-six H-60
2 Ticonderoga class guided missile cruisers
1 Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyer
3 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates
2 Los Angeles class attack submarines
1 Supply class fast combat support ship


7th Carrier Fleet
1 Nimitz class aircraft carrier
-48 F/A-18 Hornets
-four E-2C AEW
-four E-A6B SEAD/EW
-eight S-3B
-two Es-3A
-six H-60
2 Ticonderoga class guided missile cruisers
1 Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyer
3 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates
2 Los Angeles class attack submarines
1 Supply class fast combat support ship

There are 6 more carrier fleets. However they are in storage
M4 Carbines for Naval Guardsmen

Naval Air Wing - Shore Based Aircraft
10 EA-6Bs
56 CH-53Es Super Stallion

NC Army: 2,500,000 Front Line Troops: 250,000
Weapons:
2,500,000 M16A2 w/ M203 Grenade Lauchers
400,000 M24 Sniper Weapon System
10,000 M249 SAWs
Grenades
500,000 H&K USP
500 mortars
500 Dragon anti-tank missiles
500 TOW anti-tank missiles
50 Avenger SAM
60 Stinger SAM

NC Army Tank&Vehicle Corps: 1,000,000 men – Front line:55,000 men

1st Mechanical Battalion
150 M1A2 Abrams tanks
300 M2 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles (with infantry squad equipment)
2000 5-ton trucks
2000 HMMWVs
15,000 Uniforms (BDU shirt, pants, Kelvar helmet, flak jacket, Night Vision Goggles, M-4 Carbine)

234th Mechanical Battalion
150 M1A2 Abrams tanks
300 M2 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles (with infantry squad equipment)
2000 HMMWVs
2000 5-ton trucks
15,000 Uniforms (BDU shirt, pants, Kelvar helmet, flak jacket, Night Vision Goggles, M-4 Carbine)


81st Vehcile Battalion
150 M1A2 Abrams tanks
300 M2 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles (with infantry squad equipment)
2000 HMMWVs
2000 5-ton trucks
15,000 Uniforms (BDU shirt, pants, Kelvar helmet, flak jacket, Night Vision Goggles, M-4 Carbine)


101st Tank&Support Battalion
150 M1A2 Abrams tanks
300 M2 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles (with infantry squad equipment)
2000 HMMWVs
2000 5-ton trucks
15,000 Uniforms (BDU shirt, pants, Kelvar helmet, flak jacket, Night Vision Goggles, M-4 Carbine)


14th Infantry Support Battation
150 M1A2 Abrams tanks
300 M2 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles (with infantry squad equipment)
2000 HMMWVs
2000 5-ton trucks
15,000 Uniforms (BDU shirt, pants, Kelvar helmet, flak jacket, Night Vision Goggles, M-4 Carbine)


245th Vehicle Support Battalion
208 M1A2 Abrams tanks
300 M2 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles (with infantry squad equipment)
2000 HMMWVs
2000 5-ton trucks
15,000 Uniforms (BDU shirt, pants, Kelvar helmet, flak jacket, Night Vision Goggles, M-4 Carbine)



145th Bombarmant Company
72 155mm howtzers
450 M109 Paladin+ 75 Paladin resupply vehicles

213rd Marine Vechiles Company
223 Amphious Assult Vechle
130 LAV's

NC Army Air Wing: 60,000 men Front line: 10,000
555 AH-64 Apache attack helicopters
173 UH-60 Utility helicopters
25 RAH-66 Comanche
400 CH-47 Chinook
36 AH-64Ds Longbow helicopters
72 CH-46E Sea Knight

144 F-36Bs


NC army Omega Force: 50,000 men Front line: 10,000
Weapons:
16,000 M8 Lightweight rifle
16,000 H&K USP

In storage: We have 5x the amount for
150 M1A2 Abrams tanks (default; can be T-90s instead)
300 M2 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles (with infantry squad equipment; can be replaced with BMP-2)
75 M109 Paladin+ 75 Paladin resupply vehicles (Can be replaced with M-1974)
75 AH-64 Apache attack helicopters (Can be replaced with Mi-24 Hind)
75 UH-60 Utility helicopters (Can be replaced with Mi-8 Hip)
1500 HMMWVs
1500 5-ton trucks
15,000 Uniforms (BDU shirt, pants, Kelvar helmet, flak jacket, Night Vision Goggles, M-4 Carbine or AK-74)

We have 1x this amount for:
58 M1A2 Abrams tanks
233 Amphibious Assault Vehicle
130 LAVs
72 155mm howtzers
161 mortars
108 Dragon anti-tank missiles
186 TOW anti-tank missiles
12 KC 130s
144 F-36Bs
10 EA-6Bs
72 CH-46Es
56 CH-53Es
36 AH-64Ds
18 UH-60s
30 Avenger SAM
60 Stinger SAM
3000 HMMWVs
3000 trucks

Other Weapons:
10 MX-200 ICBM (50 Megaton Nuclear Warhead)
10 MX-400 ICBM (250 Megaton " " )

Obvisiously needs to be updated, but.

Hey NC, could you do me a favor and rp some response to my attempts to help?

I don't care if you say "the govt of the NC's has no use for your piddling humanitarian missions." Just something I can work with. Anything!

you havent mailed any messages to the Colonial Government, so really we cant help you there until you do.

The capital is it Finctocc (sp) or is it Freedom City? Finctocc appears to have a star.

its Freedom City, the capital

I should make a factbook.

NC your map has vanished. What I was going to ask was; what is the name of that little island on your north coast.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7503/newbitmapimage2ct1.th.png (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newbitmapimage2ct1.png)

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4000/d741ae87jt9.th.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=d741ae87jt9.jpg)

Where is this taking place?

The Farminan fleets were closing in on the Colonial fleet. They had made no attempt to flee or surrender.

“Damn it,” said Frost, “Either these people are stupid or…”

He couldn’t think of another possibility. Plans were already in place. Overwhelming might was moving against the Colonials: nearly the entire Farminan naval strength, plus land and air support. Grabbing the radio he sent an open message, “This is Grand Admiral Frost of the Farminan National Naval Service; surrender immediately or face destruction. You are surrounded and severely at outnumbered. Submarines are spread throughout the waters between here and Northern Colonies. Do not waste your lives pointless; you have already lost. Raise the flag of truce and dock immediately. All crew will be imprisoned and then processed before being relocated to a neutral nation. This is your only warning; our cannons are armed and ready.”

He then turned to his Chief Weapons Officer, “Begin the firing sequence.”

Just outside Farminan waters...apparently.

ChevyRocks, if I'm not mistaken, you just RP'd the loss of 10 NC missiles. You generally can't do that unless you have permission and I dont see permission from NC for to 'award' them losses. Depending on what NC wants, you may need to make a revision or two.

OOC: Plus, I dont think i hit the airport where his planes are at.

THIS IS THE OOC THREAD.

Ok, here's the deal. I'm sick of trying to ask whats going on. I've asked directly and I even RP'd the questions and got no respsonse so here is the last attempt at sorting this thing out before I RP elsewhere. I expect a little bit of detail so I know exactly what's going on.

Where is this naval battle taking place?
How far apart are NC and Farm?
Farmina, where are you deployed (and with what)?
NC, where are you deployed (and with what)?
Where can I find maps of both nations (and colonies, territories etc)? Where are the targets in both nations (airfields, bases, harbours, railyards, bridges, mass formations etc)
Can we please keep the OOC out of the IC thread?

Thank you.

I'll let Farmina brief you, considering he is your ally

THIS IS THE OOC THREAD.

Ok, here's the deal. I'm sick of trying to ask whats going on. I've asked directly and I even RP'd the questions and got no respsonse so here is the last attempt at sorting this thing out before I RP elsewhere. I expect a little bit of detail so I know exactly what's going on.

Where is this naval battle taking place?
How far apart are NC and Farm?
Farmina, where are you deployed (and with what)?
NC, where are you deployed (and with what)?
Where can I find maps of both nations (and colonies, territories etc)? Where are the targets in both nations (airfields, bases, harbours, railyards, bridges, mass formations etc)
Can we please keep the OOC out of the IC thread?

Thank you.

I've also answered several times.

Off the East Coast of Farmina.
Long distance; a week by ship is my guess.
Can't answer.
NC has posted his map in both threads. In nations of several billion; there will be thousands of targets. I'm not writing them all in.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Farmina/43fc4b65.jpg

Battleships don't have armor that much thicker than cruisers; not that it would really count for much if they did (especially seven times difference). And there is a difference between the bottom of the ocean and trying to skim just below the surface; and thats only if the torpedos are sound guided. These use a more satillite targeting; since your fleet is under intense candid camera.

Gotta go now.

battleships have way more armour then cruisers. There's no such thing as satellite guided missiles, cause you cant see subs under the ocean.

The torpedoes were aimed your ships; which I'm sure satellites can see. NC, no modern navy has an operational battleship; why, because they're ineffective considering their massive crew.

Also two more of your people appearing magically behind mine would be godmodding.

Most NS nations have battleships, its a battle of 'keeping up with the jonesys.'

And there are no satellite guided torpedos, cause satellites are crap when it comes to guiding stuff into targets.

And about the spys. How did you know that they were spies. Wouldn't that be godmodding in itself?

Most NS nations have battleships, its a battle of 'keeping up with the jonesys.'
I call it compensating for something; as opposed to building an effective military.

And there are no satellite guided torpedos, cause satellites are crap when it comes to guiding stuff into targets.
Are you trying to tell me that the only possible way to guide torpedos is sound?

And about the spys. How did you know that they were spies. Wouldn't that be godmodding in itself?
No; it was something the spy said, that no Farminan would say. I have a suspicion that if I tell you OOC; then suddenly none of your agents will say it in IC; very convenient...

Hmm...now that I look at the map, Verica really isn't at all close to the coast. I think I may need to go back and redo my plans.

Communist Revolution; a ship of the scale you are speaking would sink immediately to the bottom of the ocean; or at the very least take years to reach any battlefield.

I call it compensating for something; as opposed to building an effective military.


Are you trying to tell me that the only possible way to guide torpedos is sound?


No; it was something the spy said, that no Farminan would say. I have a suspicion that if I tell you OOC; then suddenly none of your agents will say it in IC; very convenient...

Well, beliefs aside, it happens in the NS world. You shouldn't really be arguing the merits of different navies in RP, and especially to call that a godmod

And yes theres sound, and possibly manual guided, but you cant do that with 50 torpedos at one. And eventually you have to let them guide by sound.

Ok, I'll modify the spy part thou.

And you havent responded to my attacks yet.

There would be plenty of defence analysists around to guide missiles; but the point is taken. But battleships can't be made effective simply by lots of people using them. They are an out of date weapon. You still haven't really done much to the effect to change my previous complaints. I'm not just going to keep posting more casualties as your highly immune fleet just keeps on firing off some huge amount of weapons.

the messian bombing raid as probably rended that point moot. I've lost half my fleet in that fashion.

And out of date is depending on who you ask. Remember, there are dreadnaught sized ships,

Also, Jagada are we going to do that envoy thing still?

Communist Revolution; a ship of the scale you are speaking would sink immediately to the bottom of the ocean; or at the very least take years to reach any battlefield.

So sink it then.

And what happened to your post about gassing the Conspiracy's troops with sleeping gas in the bases that weren't there?

Unfortunately for you, you air patrols are a little late (not even mentioning the fact that you added them in that last edit when you deleted the paragraph about the gassing) . I have already attacked. Feel free to RP the losses any time, as well as the confusion, fear and damaged moral this completely surprised attack has caused the Farminian leadership, military and populace.

I won't accept a few civilians here, a few there and only minor damage. Nor will I accept the a lack of shock. If suspicion was really there, they why weren't air patrols increased before the attack?.

Light machine guns taking down missiles?

An entirely fortified east coast? Nice how you mentioned that AFTER the troops were ashore.

If you demand realism and accuracy from others, take your own advice.

I also notice that you tend to take things that are said OOCly in here and use them in the IC thread. Please stop. OOC is so we can plan things, clarify things and have a discussion about the RP, not so we can 'spy' and get 'early warning' for our repective nations and forces.



So as it stands now:

8 cruise missiles en route to targets (oil facilities, railyards, and a major military building) in Castile

10 cruise missiles targetting sites of Farminian defence (shore batteries*, missile sites and anything else that could be considered a military target)

40 torpedos are targetting battleships, aircraft carriers dreadnaughts etc. I cant get into detail because you haven't posted your fleet numbers. You can't have them all target one or two ships, be reasonable about it please.

Aircraft struck into Farminian land easily (being allied they weren't going to be targetted by aa batteries or anything until it was too late, and were striking targets of opportunity (military bases, tanks, airfields, aircraft etc). I can't RP the attack of any specific target because like the above, you refuse to mention any of your deployments.

15,000 troops (out of the 165,000) and 2000 tanks (out of the 4300) were stationed just off shore giving them a short travel time to your coast where the little girl was playing with her dad in the park. Yeah well that's where they just landed.


I'm thinking you're pushing it for me Farmina. I thought this was going to be a decent RP, a small group attacking the Northern Colonies then CCR suddenly turning its back on Farmina to even things out, but maybe not.

And on side not, CCR is not really communist, its just a name I thought was cool at the time. Communists don't usually have Excellent politcal freedoms or the chance to run for office.

Nothing in the name is really representative of the actual nation.

So please, refer to people from CCR as Conspirators.

The light machine gun fire was aimed at Colonial missiles. I've barely responded to your post as I have other things to do; and yes I changed my post after I realised I misread yours, assuming that you hadn't read mine yet).

I've mentioned several times that the Farminan east coast is heavily fortified in preperation for a Colonial invasion. NC will confirm that this has been frequently discussed if you will like. Farmina is a nation at war and a nation that has lost the ability to trust; we would not simply role up our defences. I've posted my fleet numbers within the text. Also we would notice when your flying somewhere for no good reason; but the aircraft Grey scrambled were scrambled after you launched your attack (are you trying to suggest I didn't notice you were attacking?)

Long range missiles and coastal batteries reported in post 50.

That's it. The only reference to the the east coast defences. Nothing about 'heavily fortified' or 'well defenced' just missiles and batteries which were targetted. If you can prove otherwise, without linking to a post that has been edited as of now or in another thread, I'll withdraw my objections about the coast.

I was just trying to find references to the Farminian fleet and couldn't find many.

Farm, just post a list of your deployments like everyone else. Makes things easier and more organized and that way people can't complain that you just made things majically show up.

CR - The Saint Fedskian aren't on the East Coast of Farmina, they are on the East Coast of the Northern Colonies.

It was discussed in private discussions between me and NC; as I assumed he would be the only person who needed to know. However it would be rather crazy for Farmina not to fortify the east coast with a Colonial invasion fleet sitting there for some time.

With regard to a list of deployments; I've also made the point that Farminan industry is turning every spare scrap of metal into tanks and planes. Also NC has dismissed his own list resources as "out of date" and other nations have only posted a list on what they've sent to either Farmina or NC; so they always have the flexibility to send more. So to accuse me of having the ability to magic more troops is unfair. I've also posted a list of naval and air strength somewhere else.

Also I RP stories; not wars so this is more a neccisary annoyance for me than a pleasure; this entire thread is about removing a bump in the plot of "A Burning Hourglass" that has spiralled radically out of control.

A lot of things 'make sense' but that doesn't mean people will do them. So intelligence still reports that long range missiles and coastal batteries are the 'fortifications'. Attacking a nearby any invasion fleet would only make sense too, but you only just got around to attacking it.

With regard to a list of deployments; I've also made the point that Farminan industry is turning every spare scrap of metal into tanks and planes. Also NC has dismissed his own list resources as "out of date" and other nations have only posted a list on what they've sent to either Farmina or NC; so they always have the flexibility to send more. So to accuse me of having the ability to magic more troops is unfair. I've also posted a list of naval and air strength somewhere else.
Tanks and planes are good, but who will man them?

Nations list their deployments so you know what's going on. If they were to add more, they would have to RP the orders, the departure and the arrival and then provide some detail about them.

So before I RP any further, is this outcome already planned?

There has been a long standing ceasefire, broken when NC pulled out of negotiations; plus Farminan naval strength was needed in Alice.

Who will man the tanks and planes? The extra conscription classes being called up. Plus broken vehicles need to be replaced and troops get sideways promotion.

I think there is some acceptance by MES (less so by NC) that Farmina will win; but at a price.

MES attacking NC begins a new phase of Messian empire building; namely turning nations like the Revolution and NC into puppets to use against Farmina once the ceasefire expires. Farmina is going to try and stop MES; but can't directly attack it in fear of violating the peace.

However the outcome isn't "planned"; just incredibly probable.

I thought I already destoryed 2 of the dreadnaughts

This is pretty rough; but its all I've written up (or copy and pasted)

Navy
15 Carriers
50 Submarines
30 Cruisers
40 Destroyers
20 Frigates
20 Corvettes
3 Hospital Ships
18 Supply Ships (not including haulers)

Air Force
4000 Fighters
500 Bombers
1000 Air Transports



Messian Forces Serving or Imprisoned by Farmina

Navy:

Task Force 1:

4 Champion class fleet carriers (MESV Defiance, MESV Dominator, MESV Trinity, MESV Houston) (5 wings of XG-32N Sea Swarmers, 4 wings of XB-91N Water Rhinos)
2 Punisher class dreadnoughts (MESV Excalibur, MESV Indomidable)
4 Thunder class battleships (MESV Helios, MESV Intrepid)
12 Bradley class frigates
2 Dominator class pocket-cruisers (MESV Bismark, MESV Nihil)
8 Banshee class anti-air corvettes
4 Blade class fleet submarines (MESV Silencer, MESV Lurker, MESV Shark, MESV Hunter)
1 Rescuer class medical and rescue cruiser (MESV Redemption)

Task Force 2:

2 Champion class fleet carriers (MESV Reaper, MESV Slasher) (5 wings of XG-32N Sea Swarmers, 4 wings of XB-91N Water Rhinos)
1 Punisher class dreadnoughts (MESV Punisher)
2 Thunder class battleships (MESV Invincible, MESV Striker)
8 Bradley class frigates
2 Dominator class pocket-cruisers (MESV Rebel, MESV Stranger)
6 Banshee class anti-air corvettes
1 Blade class fleet submarines (MESV Sleeper)
1 Rescuer class medical and rescue cruiser (MESV Medicine)

Task Force 3:

1 Champion class fleet carriers (MESV Lightning) (5 wings of XG-32N Sea Swarmers, 4 wings of XB-91N Water Rhinos)
1 Punisher class dreadnoughts (MESV Annihilator)
2 Thunder class battleships (MESV Devastation, MESV Destroyer)
8 Bradley class frigates
8 Banshee class anti-air corvettes
7 Lifeline class hydrogen refinery vessels (MESV Refinery 1, MESV Refinery 2, MESV Refinery 3, MESV Refinery 4, MESV Refinery 5, MESV Refinery 6, MESV Refinery 7)
1 Rescuer class medical and rescue cruiser (MESV Peace)

NOTE: Wing is 12 planes unless otherwise stated. Plane numbers are per ship basis, not collective.
--------
Army:

Alpha Infantry Batallion
Beta Infantry Batallion

23rd medium tank division "Desert Snakes"
24th medium tank division "Desert Snakes"
25th medium tank division "Desert Snakes"
12th heavy tank batallion

Airborne 1st Infantry & Armored paratroop and 'paratank' division
Airborne 2nd Infantry & Armored paratroop and 'paratank' division
Airborne 3rd Infantry & Armored paratroop and 'paratank' division

50 H-10 Beast attack helicopters

NOTE: Additional troops will arrive after the initial strike. More info to follow.
--------
Air Force: (Does not count naval air forces)

10 XF-99 Vengeance superiority fighter squadrons
15 XG-32 Swarmer fighter squadrons
5 XB-91 Rhino attack bomber squadrons
2 CO-19 Whisperer command aircraft

NOTE: Squadron is 16 planes unless otherwise stated.
--------
Transport:

100 C-45 Drozone VTOL Carryall transports
100 C-54 Thor heavy transports
200 Hav-Vac class hovercraft transports

--------
Logistics:

40 Hauler class supply vessels
7 Lifeline class mobile hydrogen refinery ships

I thought I already destoryed 2 of the dreadnaughts
Battleships; you destroy 2 or 3 battleships.

ah.

Ok, also from which airport did you manage to get 117 planes out, considering ive blown a hole in the three closest ones (I should remind you, jsut from a technical point of view, that you cant really use dirt as a runway for jets. Basically you need to much runway and u damage your planes too easily.)

A dozen airfields further south; closer to the Conspirator positions.

I hope my aircraft can resist dust; since they have to deal with bugs, and birds in the propellor; not to mention shrapnel and bullets. Crop dusters can handle dirt; so I'm sure military grade jets can.

Crop Dusters are propellor-based, which are slower and therfore more tolerant for mistakes eg. Dust getting in engine.

Jet engines don't have that tolerance cause they go too fast, and require a fast speed for take off.

And report damage from mine and CCRs attacks.

NC you still haven't responed to my attacks.

Conspiracy; do you think 15k of men can land just like that?

OOC: Quick question, is this the thread you wanted my ShadowOps teams involved in cause if so I can rp somthing up for ya. Sorry for the OOC spam post here, i`ll replace it with the rp later on or delete it.

MES, I report my own damage thank you very much.

And Farmina, I believe I have. I cant reply to any attack posts until you reply, or we'll go out of sync.

Farmina: And considering that CCR was your 'ally', I think that given delay communication times and all that, it's plausiable

And I forgot to mention. Depth Charges require that the destoryer is directly under the submarine. Basically, Depth Charges act like dumb bombs, which are unguided.

NC you still haven't responed to my attacks.

Conspiracy; do you think 15k of men can land just like that?

Just an observation but you did respond to the CCR attack with the launching of one hundred jets and twenty some odd missiles. You did not mention anything about the landing craft which...To complement the massive bombardment, the amphibious transports anchored fairly close to the shore released their landing craft, sending fifteen thousand troops and two thousand tanks ashore just north of Denin....I think implies that the landing craft were already on their way and you did not respond to it. I too would have assumed that Farmina had nothing to challenge the landing with.

OOCly I think this is going down the toilet. If one has nothing to say about the two hundred thousand soldiers sitting off their coast that suddenly become the enemy, a surprise ICly and OOCly, then one is either not paying attention to their own RP or one's self and one's characters are in such surprise that they have frozen.

So Farmina, please get with the program on this one.

Just to be fair; I’ve sunk a quarter of my total fleet. NC has lost a few minor ships (with the exception of the Messian bombing run), despite being fewer and more closely packed; and Conspiracy has lost an entire two rockets. SF has a point about the Conspiracy landing vessels; BUT Conspiracy refuses to admit that the coast has any defences that would require any more substantially extended; and NC has failed to back up my claim that we have discussed their existence (I doubt NC just simply missed my posts).

Again; I have to go. I will post more later. NC tell me what attacks it is I missed?

OOC: Quick question, is this the thread you wanted my ShadowOps teams involved in cause if so I can rp somthing up for ya. Sorry for the OOC spam post here, i`ll replace it with the rp later on or delete it.
To put it simply yes.

damn it, must have thought i did.

MES your reporting my damage. Again. And then telling me off.

Depth charges don't need the submarine to be directly under the destroyer. A depthcharge launcher does exactly that; launch the depth charge, just like you would launch a shell.

Two things, at the moment...

1. Farmina, do you have a scale for your nation's map?

2. Northern Colonies, you may want to up the damage report from my BGM-6s striking. They're some pretty serious weaponry, I figure they're close to being hit by a pretty huge naval gun shell (probably in the mid 20"-range), except instead of exploding they just punch right through the hull. I'm not sure what it would do to your battleships, as I don't know the specs of them, but I imagine it would likely do absolutely massive damage to a cruiser.

Two things, at the moment...

1. Farmina, do you have a scale for your nation's map?
Don't have time to work out any exact numbers. Farmina is about the same size as the US and Australia (actually its a little larger).

I posted earlier that two dreadnoughts turned to fire on the Conspirator fleet. This obviously makes no sense; as they are at Denin in Farminan waters, as opposed to out of Farmina waters near Jean, no small distance. The dreadnoughts must be still firing at the Colonials.

NC; let me put it another way; there is no way that Farminan soldiers would allow their orders to be ignore and not mention allow you to perform such an obvious attempt to blow them up. That would be like me posting that my aircraft flew right over your capital and dropped heaps of bombs; but then defending it saying "I didn't state casualties".

I don't get the analogy.

1. I'm ont blowing them up.
2. People do throw crap at other people, partically if they do get in trouble.

What am saying is your agents wouldn't be given the chance to remove, arm and throw a bomb.

Also planes may not melt into a slag heap at 1200C; but they would still be completely inoperable. The tyres would be gone along with the wiring; you'd have a nice black hull; and probably an engine excessively welded together.

depends where it hits actually. If it hits the fuselage, and it has the most space, then yes it would still be operatible.

The chemical table of Aluminum. (http://www.chemicalelements.com/elements/al.html)

Read it. Melting point is 600 degrees, so they would melt. They wouldn't boil, but it would definitely damaged the chassis into an unflyable condition, and what Farmina said was dead on; even if the bodies were okay, the cockpit would be too badly singed to see, the electronics would be fused, and the tires would be melted. And again, if there's fuel on board or any explosives, it would ignite, and thus, explode.

EDIT: As well, the Napalm wouldn't necessarely hit them dead on. But there's A) Lots of napalm coming down, and B) It causes a huge fire. Check out some videos in Vietnam to get a good idea how big.

depends where it hits actually. If it hits the fuselage, and it has the most space, then yes it would still be operatible.

I dunno if you've ever seen what happens when a napalm bomb actually explodes, but let's just say it would engulf a whole plane if it went off anywhere nearby.

It may not melt the carbon-composite airframe, but everything else that's made of conventional materials (the avionics and flight controls, engines, fuel system) will be severely damaged if not destroyed. The heat alone would be enough to set off the fuel and armaments inside the planes.

So if the initial fire doesn't destroy the plane, the secondary explosions and damage to other systems will.

Was just reading the last two pages of OOC. Please guys, realistic estimates please. We're both willing to cut our own losses if we can stay realistic. Otherwise this war will have to be completely ignored, or restarted from scratch.

if it hits directly at the fuselage, and statically, it has more chance. then the heat will dissipate between it. And since the fuselage covers all those parts mentioned, you will not have them burnt out.

And all those systems have heat protection itself, so that if by chance a fire happens in a cockpit, then the planes won't blow themselves to crisp.

And MES, I don't know if you can read or not, but I did say that aircraft are NOT made of aluminium. They are a carbon-composite. If you look at Carbon, it has a melting point of around 3500 Degrees Celsius.

Carbon forms many compounds; some with extremely low melting points; but I doubt the melting point of a carbon-alumnium alloy is that high.

As well, as aforementioned, at the very LEAST, the tires would be destroyed, but as also aforementioned, the fuel and ammunition on deck would explode.

Maybe a picture will help you

http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitledow8.png

And also, aircraft do not have a carbon aluminium composite (thats a compound really though). It will resist a napalm attack.

I'd like to point out, in the interests of getting what was looking to be an interesting RP going again, that even if NC is completely correct and his planes aren't affected by the napalm (and since you want this "strictly MT" NC, you ought to cite sources showing where your plane designs with the specifications you're noting here already exist), humans tend to melt at temperatures far below that of aluminium or any artificial carbon composite. I'd say it's a fair bet your deck crews and pilots are either little piles of ash, or suffering third-degree burns to the majority of thier bodies (including singed lungs due to the air heating up).

I could site a few sources on the material of the aircraft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-fibre_reinforced_plastic

Its a thermosetting plastic, which if I remember can not be melted. It can be destoryed if you apply enough bombs, but you can't melt it.

Just because something doesn't melt; doesn't mean its not damaged beyond repair. Thermoset plastics can "soften" even if they don't liquidify (they can also catch alight). However the tyres would still be rubber; and as Macisikan pointed out; your crew would be getting incredibly hot. Talking of which; your ship conducts heat.

Not at that temperature.

You need at least 2000 Degrees, depending on the exact composite.

And I would be willing to have the deck crew killed, but that's as far as I'm going to go.

Surely such intense heat will affect people deeper in the ships.

And I somewhat doubt that the pilots in the planes on the decks would be perfectly healthy, along with anyone else out in the open.

yea pilots too.

And Farmina now. Most of the heat will disperce out into the atmosphere, rather then into the ship itself. In any case, the thread must continue. The deck crew, and pilots are all im really going to consider. Take it, or leave it.

Hold a steel pole. Apply massive heat; your hand will burn despite the fact some will dispate in the air. Even more so when 180degrees of metal surrounds the ignition point; not the much narrower angle of a pole. Now just imagine the scale of the experiment revised; at least ten times 100C. There are going to be a lot of very ill people below deck to say the least. Imagine being stuck in a seat container on a hot day. 1000C is a lot worse than 40C.
Take it, or leave it.
Two can play that game.

A carrier is a lot more bigger then a steel pole. You have to account for that too. In any case, this RP isn't going to move anywhere with us arguing about it.

I'd like to point out that it is a scientific fact that, although the heat radiating into the atmosphere would dissapate quickly, the heat that goes into the metal of the ship would be absorbed and radiate down into the ship long after the initial fire has gone out. While it wouldn't be instant death, the temperature would be oven-like in short order. Bascially, the ship might shelter the below-decks personnel from being ashed, and from the immediate effects, but after a little while it would be a mite uncomfortable down there.

And the napalm would apply a metric crapload more heat then you need apply to the pole to make a hand blister, especially as that stuff burns for a while.

Of course, no-one's noted the effects of the napalm on the windows and personnel of the superstructure; the bridge and everyone on it would either be rather melty, or hiding under desks, having been forced to run well away from any glass (which, unless it was that special sort that can take sudden temperature variants in stride, would have exploded, shredding anyone nearby).

Your ships would likely be crippled, or be severely impaired, if nothing else because the bridge crew has splinters of glass protruding from visible flesh (and the radiant heat would be colossal).

Yea, fiberglass should be able to deal with that kind of hit, assuming it didn't take a direct hit

Ignoring the effects the massive barrage possibly ruining any fiberglass windows; surely they would be visibility problems with fibreglass windows.

I meant Carbon-Fibreglass composite. Very similar process to the aircraft on the deck.

Yea, there could be visablility problems, but I dont thing that point is important

Yea, there could be visablility problems, but I dont thing that point is important

If you can't see out the bridge windows, then how the heck can they properly do Air Traffic Control?

As well, airplanes have the same problem if you give the same argument; how can they dogfight if they can't see properly?

And you never explained how the heat WOULDN'T cause the fuel dumps, pumps, and supplies from igniting, as well as munitions.

What I mean, is that there is visibility problems i.e smoke, but not blanketing the screen itself.

And why, because the majority are below deck.

I'm going to type the damage report later tonight. No more OOC crap, we need to move on. And Farmina, in regards to the spy thing, you need to accept the premise that I've thrown that pipe. Or I'm calling godmod.

Or I'm calling godmod.
The premise that you threw the pipe is itself a godmod.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7b/Napalm_AirStrike_South_Vietnam_1966.jpg/300px-Napalm_AirStrike_South_Vietnam_1966.jpg

That's from one bomb. I doubt it wouldn't singe the tower. And also keep in mind that there's sixteen planes in that bombing run.

The premise that you threw the pipe is itself a godmod.


No it's not. Provided its not outlandish, and believe me it's not, you are kind of bound to accept that it has happened. Otherwise, I have no chance of having any effect with you, which ruins the point of freeform RPing.

No it's not. Provided its not outlandish, and believe me it's not, you are kind of bound to accept that it has happened. Otherwise, I have no chance of having any effect with you, which ruins the point of freeform RPing.
You posted quite a casual action. People who don't put their hands up tend to get shot. Casual action is slow. This leaves excess of time for your non complient troublemaker to be shot. It would be outlandish for my troops not to shoot him.

NC you do realise that the CCR is several hundred kilometers south of yours (and I don't think he is coming back)?

he has some issues atm.

And the CCR's ships are in the vicinity. You've seemed to have achnoleged it too in one of your IC posts.

he has some issues atm.

And the CCR's ships are in the vicinity. You've seemed to have achnoleged it too in one of your IC posts.
I also then admited I was mistaken. His fleet is near Denin; while we seemed to agree that we were fighting at Jean.

its a race to get to Dubin then. I repeated that fact that I was moving the fleet to the CCR. Which means ive been moving for a while.

You posted quite a casual action. People who don't put their hands up tend to get shot. Casual action is slow. This leaves excess of time for your non complient troublemaker to be shot. It would be outlandish for my troops not to shoot him.

It's kind of RP ettiqutte. Otherwise I can dodge those bullets by saying I leaped out of the way. Since I stated that this has happened, you have to respond to the attack, not pretend it never happened. It's what improv acting call, blocking and that's not liked in improv.

It's kind of RP ettiqutte. Otherwise I can dodge those bullets by saying I leaped out of the way. Since I stated that this has happened, you have to respond to the attack, not pretend it never happened. It's what improv acting call, blocking and that's not liked in improv.
I'm afraid to inform you; you are very much mistaken. I am not compelled to accept anything, simply because you said it happened, otherwise I can say "My bombers flew over Freedom City and released their payload." Its the exact same thing. My bombers wouldn't have been given the chance to fly over your city that easily; just as your men wouldn't be given the chance to arm and throw a bomb in custody. Your men would never have been able to pull it off, its that simple. By demanding that an unachievable action be accepted; you are in fact godmodding, giving yourself an edge you are not entitled to.

If you had expanded on that one sentence, including logistics and all the other stuff, yes I would be able too. Provided it's feasible.

And that casual action can be done in 2 sec tops. You might still end up shooting me, but the thing will still hit the person.

And it is not a bomb. It is a needle, disguised as a cigarette. There is no need to arm anything. You havent detained them, you just have guns pointed at them.

CR; its a day or so's between Castile and Denin.

Now how are you able to tell the SF subs apart from the Colonial ones? How are you able to send that message immediately? How are you able to not even take a loss before sending the message? How are you able to do all of that? If we withdraw, does that mean the attacks are now void and never happened? If we withdraw, where do we withdraw from? If we withdraw, we'll only come back with a lot more.

And you did let me know where your subs were because I asked in a telegram.

Now how are you able to tell the SF subs apart from the Colonial ones? How are you able to send that message immediately? How are you able to not even take a loss before sending the message? How are you able to do all of that? If we withdraw, does that mean the attacks are now void and never happened? If we withdraw, where do we withdraw from? If we withdraw, we'll only come back with a lot more.

And you did let me know where your subs were because I asked in a telegram.
And I gave you an OOC response to your telegram. Al'a you couldn't find my subs. Al'a I couldn't take casualties because you couldn't shot them.

However; you'll still get the same outrage in the end. War with betrayal and no negotations. If you aren't fighting for anything; I don't like that. I don't fight for the sake of fighting.

Where is your OOC response? You told me you had 20 subs off the coast of Northern Colonies. It wouldn't be hard to ask NC where their subs where and then figure out that the unknowns were your's.

I'm not fighting for the sake of fighting. I'm fighting to save a democracy, a former ally, against an overly religious nation with no civil or political rights. Sounds like a decent reason for me.

Now CR; your post is a little godmoddy; you've encircled my city you claim; but the last thing you did was land.

I pulled back; which suggests I'd be able to move out the rear of the city to prevent encirclement.

You can't just encircle a city by posting that you encircle it.

Does anyone actually have a reason for being at war with me? If not bugger off; so I can eventually launch my invasion of the MES.

I'm not fighting for the sake of fighting. I'm fighting to save a democracy, a former ally, against an overly religious nation with no civil or political rights. Sounds like a decent reason for me.

Yes; but you have to consider that my nation is also a democracy; the nation that was attacked (by a former friend, because they didn't like who won the Farminan election) with moderate civil rights.

If you were attacking the Mes that would be different. But you can't just invade a nation; because a large number of their people are religious.

And you can't just see submarines. They tend to be rather hidden.

"The Democratic Republic of Farmina is a massive, devout nation, renowned for its complete absence of social welfare. Its hard-nosed, hard-working, cynical population of 3.985 billion are ruled by a mostly-benevolent dictator, who grants the populace the freedom to live their own lives but watches carefully for anyone to slip up."

"Politcal Freedoms: Few"

"Father Knows Best State"

Yes, yes a real democracy.

And if I'm not mistaken, you brought all of this upon yourself. Had you been able to defeat NC on your own, you would not have needed the Coalition, however you invited people into the RP/War and some turned their back on you. Shit happens man.

"Politcal Freedoms: Few"
This is inaccurate. I've recieved an unfair balance of political issues (especially the "none of the above" issue).

That is true. My military dictatorship was once an inoffensive centrist democracy, and another time being Democratic Socialists. Although the centrist part is accurate, my nation is more realistic towards the "Father Knows Best State" style.

You can't use what NS pumps out at face value; besides, between me, Farmina and the NC, we're more or less doing this RP from the NS standpoint when this originally started, which means a Farminan population of 2 billion, mine with 1 billion, and whatever NC's was at the time, also counting that at the time, I had an abysmal economy, which is not the case now but I count it in the RP.

Farmina will have to give you the orignal nation stats discounting population for this war RP to be able to understand.

So anyway, Farmina asked me in on this RP on his side, and I intend to support him. I do need a couple of things known first though.

1) Is NC territory analagous to Western Anatolia, and if so, what nations border it to the East?

2) Where is Saint Fedski located?

theres the dismiss button you know.

And you can invade a nation if it is harbouring terrorists. If such a nation does not respect it's own consitiution etc. etc.

theres the dismiss button you know.

And you can invade a nation if it is harbouring terrorists. If such a nation does not respect it's own consitiution etc. etc.
NC there is a difference between being attacked by terrorists and harboring them. As for the replacement of Palmer with Grey (which you supported) it is constitutional; there was no law PROHIBTING it. The consitution is what legally cannot be done; not what can be done.

Anyways; apologies for being a bit cranky (however expect more of it) things aren't going great in the real world; and another delay the RP that will be the highlight of post-Justinian Farmina has just annoyed me.

1) Is NC territory analagous to Western Anatolia, and if so, what nations border it to the East?
NC is an island. Eastern Turkey must have been flooded.

2) Where is Saint Fedski located?
Not a clue; where are you SF?

You can't use what NS pumps out at face value; besides, between me, Farmina and the NC, we're more or less doing this RP from the NS standpoint when this originally started, which means a Farminan population of 2 billion, mine with 1 billion, and whatever NC's was at the time, also counting that at the time, I had an abysmal economy, which is not the case now but I count it in the RP.

I think it was 3bn against 2 and 2.

Assume I'm in the Caribbean. I'll get some maps up soon. I have effectively wiped out all the islands that are currently there and put my own in.

SF is also in Rio de Janeiro, Halifax and Cape Town.

A Peninsular is probably more accurate.

NC; droping vehicles of out of planes in neccisarily the best way to treat them.

NC; droping vehicles of out of planes in neccisarily the best way to treat them.
lol

Well, This is the Army, Mr Farmina.

An APC would hit the ground with massive inertia. It wouldn't be a little dented; it would be in seriously bad shape.

with parachutes

its been done before by the Russians

I've certainly never heard of it working. Vehicles tend to end up upside down.

And NC again your casualties are (still) ridiculous. Your aircraft just flew through my northern airdefences unscaved? Not unlike the spy who couldn't be shot at point blank range...

Well if I'm not mistaken, you opened fire with aa GUNS on the attacking B-2s. Also if I'm not mistaken, the B-2 has a ceiling of 15,000m or so and most AA guns can't reach any higher than 4000 - 5000m so he could simply just ignore your AA fire. Now if you chose to fire missiles...different matter.

Well if I'm not mistaken, you opened fire with aa GUNS on the attacking B-2s. Also if I'm not mistaken, the B-2 has a ceiling of 15,000m or so and most AA guns can't reach any higher than 4000 - 5000m so he could simply just ignore your AA fire. Now if you chose to fire missiles...different matter.

Depends on what type of AA guns are used. The later WWII American 120mm AA guns were capable of reaching up to 80,000 feet (about 24,400 m), and that was with technology that today would be considered ancient. With modern advances in the field of artillery, such as ETC guns, and rocket- and scramjet-assisted projectiles, it would be perfectly feasible for a modern AA gun to reach into the upper atmoshpere, and it could pose a risk to a majority of combat aircraft.

I say "could" because of course, hitting the target aircraft depends on the performance of the system which the weapon is in, rather than just the weapon itself.

Well if I'm not mistaken, you opened fire with aa GUNS on the attacking B-2s. Also if I'm not mistaken, the B-2 has a ceiling of 15,000m or so and most AA guns can't reach any higher than 4000 - 5000m so he could simply just ignore your AA fire. Now if you chose to fire missiles...different matter.
Guns though usually meant to cover fire arms; is a wider term than this. Gun was originally used to describe cannons; but was extended to firearms later. The term "field gun" is used to describe artillery. A gun is a metal tube that launches high velocity projectiles (no such thing as laser guns). I'm not sure whether this would cover rocket launchers; however my intention was basically to tell NC he was coming under the full array of Farminan anti-air power; which he has had described to him plenty of times.

Also NC's bombers seemed immune to the two wings of fighters ready to intercept.

However; the classic is the spy being missed by an entire squad at point blank range; running around the squad to the recruitment vehicle and stealing a non-existent grenade.

-SNIP-.

Well, how many nations actually use 120mm guns these days? Missiles are much more accurate and can reach distances guns can't. Sure guns have a higher rate of fire, possibly are larger blast radius, are more mobile, but are still fairly inaccurate, especially at higher altitudes (and even more especially against 'stealth' aircraft). With that said though, 'stealth' aircraft are likely to be less protected against fragments and projectiles from guns than non-stealth ones.


Farmina, if you mean the 'full array' then explain what the full array is. Say that three air-to-air missiles had been launched or that the twenty-two guns fired a shell every four seconds. Simply saying that 'hundreds of guns opened fire' and that 'two wings of Farminian aircraft' were launched really says nothing. For all we know, a Farminian wing could be 300 fighters or 3 fighters.

Where were they scrambled from?
Where are the orders scrambling them?

Posts in this thread are beginning to seriously lack the details of a good story or a developing one.

If you can't be more specific, I will starting taking your posts to the extreme and quite literally. For example:

In Alice hundreds of Farminan anti air guns opened fire on the incoming bombers; with two wings of Farminan aircraft launched to support the clean up anything that survived.
I will take that has two hundred 12.7mm anti-aircraft machine guns opened up on the bombers while one hundred twenty (two wings) Hawker Hurricanes being scrambled to finish off the enemy bombers.


These stories are all about detail and flow. If you can't add detail, then no one else will know what you just did and that's how you get OOC bickering.

Also, that refers to measurements taken in perfect, lab conditions. At max range, most of the guns do not have any velocity to actually hit something, not to mention gone off-target due to wind, moving targets etc. Guns do not go in a perfect y=-x^2+x+5 fashion.

Guns though usually meant to cover fire arms; is a wider term than this. Gun was originally used to describe cannons; but was extended to firearms later. The term "field gun" is used to describe artillery. A gun is a metal tube that launches high velocity projectiles (no such thing as laser guns). I'm not sure whether this would cover rocket launchers; however my intention was basically to tell NC he was coming under the full array of Farminan anti-air power; which he has had described to him plenty of times.

Also NC's bombers seemed immune to the two wings of fighters ready to intercept.

However; the classic is the spy being missed by an entire squad at point blank range; running around the squad to the recruitment vehicle and stealing a non-existent grenade.

A spy, you killed the other.

Remember it wasnt point blank either, i give around 60cm- 1 m.

And my spys knew what was going to happen, yours did not. So there would be a moment of hesitation while the soldiers are wondering "WTF is going on eh?"

These stories are all about detail and flow. If you can't add detail, then no one else will know what you just did and that's how you get OOC bickering.
This war has expanded four threads. I have RPed with NC over six threads. Details have changed very little. I doubt he needs them repeated again and again.

A spy, you killed the other.

Remember it wasnt point blank either, i give around 60cm- 1 m.

And my spys knew what was going to happen, yours did not. So there would be a moment of hesitation while the soldiers are wondering "WTF is going on eh?"
I think that would have been more your spies thoughts. An attempt to escape would be a situation they would consider.

And I couldn't imagine professional soldiers missing at 1m.

Also, that refers to measurements taken in perfect, lab conditions. At max range, most of the guns do not have any velocity to actually hit something, not to mention gone off-target due to wind, moving targets etc. Guns do not go in a perfect y=-x^2+x+5 fashion.
Just because hits can't be perfectly calculated; doesn't mean hundreds of weapons just miss. Plus at 20,000 feet I doubt you're at max range.

This war has expanded four threads. I have RPed with NC over six threads. Details have changed very little. I doubt he needs them repeated again and again.
True he may not, but what about people reading the thread? more importantly, what about other people participating in the thread that weren't in the other five?

Roleplaying is about telling a story to the readers, not about keeping it between two players. So you guys have RP'd through five other threads, details are what make it interesting and understandable. If you just kept i t vague, even he may not remember what happened three threads ago.

P.S. Still waiting on the results of the submarine attack. Which was 'officially' done ICly by NC. However, in secret IC it was actually SF. So you should still be RPing as if SF is in the Hawk Coalition.

Well, how many nations actually use 120mm guns these days? Missiles are much more accurate and can reach distances guns can't. Sure guns have a higher rate of fire, possibly are larger blast radius, are more mobile, but are still fairly inaccurate, especially at higher altitudes (and even more especially against 'stealth' aircraft). With that said though, 'stealth' aircraft are likely to be less protected against fragments and projectiles from guns than non-stealth ones.

All Farmina has to do is to activate his cell phone network, and BAM! He can see you!

Think I'm kidding? It's old news here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2001/e20010619stealths.htm
http://www-tech.mit.edu/V121/N63/Stealth.63f.html

That means, in today's world, and DEFINITELY in Farmina's industrialized nation, he'll have cell phones galore, and could be using this exact technology to outright rape NC's bombers. You can't say godmod because this is proven fact.

Farmina, if you mean the 'full array' then explain what the full array is. Say that three air-to-air missiles had been launched or that the twenty-two guns fired a shell every four seconds. Simply saying that 'hundreds of guns opened fire' and that 'two wings of Farminian aircraft' were launched really says nothing. For all we know, a Farminian wing could be 300 fighters or 3 fighters.

Where were they scrambled from?
Where are the orders scrambling them?

Posts in this thread are beginning to seriously lack the details of a good story or a developing one.

If you can't be more specific, I will starting taking your posts to the extreme and quite literally. For example:


I will take that has two hundred 12.7mm anti-aircraft machine guns opened up on the bombers while one hundred twenty (two wings) Hawker Hurricanes being scrambled to finish off the enemy bombers.


These stories are all about detail and flow. If you can't add detail, then no one else will know what you just did and that's how you get OOC bickering.

I hate to admit it, but he's right. Farmina, you haven't really covered what your ships are like, what your weapons are, and who's shooting at what, how many there is, and what they're shooting. Perhaps a clarification post is in order, and take it from that point.

And NC, for the love of whatever God or upper power is up there, stop Godmodding your estimates. :headbang:

All Farmina has to do is to activate his cell phone network, and BAM! He can see you!

Think I'm kidding? It's old news here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2001/e20010619stealths.htm
http://www-tech.mit.edu/V121/N63/Stealth.63f.html

That means, in today's world, and DEFINITELY in Farmina's industrialized nation, he'll have cell phones galore, and could be using this exact technology to outright rape NC's bombers. You can't say godmod because this is proven fact.
Now that's a nifty piece of info. Never heard of that before. Alright so he has a large mobile phone network that can detect 'stealth' aircraft a lot better than radar. He's now faced with the task of linking that to his anti-aircraft systems, his radar systems and his training and operational programs.

Also, towers may be knocked out, power may be lost from the grid and ECM can play a vital role in eliminating that threat.

Either way, my point was not the ability to detect 'stealth' aircraft, it was to point out that anti-aircraft guns are still relatively ineffective weapons systems, especially at the altitudes that the bombers would be flying.

It also needs to have been designed intentionally, with all the fancy computer systems to be able to adjust to the signals. Over The Horizon radar (the radar guarding my eastern coastline) can also detect stealth.

And based on the fact that I managed to bomb Ricco, a bigger city, without detection, seems to mean that he does not have that capability.

And based on the fact that I managed to bomb Ricco, a bigger city, without detection, seems to mean that he does not have that capability.

That means no such thing; you took him by surprise in Ricco. His air defence wasn't expecting anything to happen, especially from a "friendly" nation, but now they are expecting someone to bomb them. If they're competant, they'll be expecting air raids in any city in the country, and be planning accordingly.

I didn't. I had already declared war against Farmina. Theorically, he should have been ready. Particularly if he had other jets flying across the place

And based on the fact that I managed to bomb Ricco, a bigger city, without detection, seems to mean that he does not have that capability.
Actually as I remember; you basically posted 'I bomb Ricco with a really big bomb' and I decided to accept it simply; because I made good international relations mileage out of it.

Still waiting on the results of the submarine attack. Which was 'officially' done ICly by NC. However, in secret IC it was actually SF. So you should still be RPing as if SF is in the Hawk Coalition.
As I said; how did you find my submarines? They would have been out of range of sonar as they were deliberately avioding other submarines. They would have been at a low depth.

You may have also noticed that I posted my distrust of you before you attacked my submarines. I've had my suspicions for some time.

I hate to admit it, but he's right. Farmina, you haven't really covered what your ships are like, what your weapons are, and who's shooting at what, how many there is, and what they're shooting. Perhaps a clarification post is in order, and take it from that point.
If I gave techincial specifications (a) I wouldn't know what they meant and (b) I doubt anyone here has the technical military experience to truely comprehend really comprehend and will just try to claim their shells are bigger than everybody elses; I've noted most RPers can't even accept the battleship is an out of date weapon. I've always focused my RPs on a wider political/geo-political level; than the very micro level. However I'll try to plagarise some relatively accurate stats (still doubting there will be any agreement what they equate too.)

It strikes me as simpler just to assume we all have basically the same weapons; minor differences in design won't make a major difference over the course of a battle, noting any attempts to differentiate specifically. Using Farmina for example; Farminan tanks sacrifice some armour for significant speed gains to match its doctorine of fluid war.

1. You must also distrust every other member of the Hawk Coalition if you distrust Saint Fedski. What started this 'distrust' of Saint Fedski?

2. As allies, certain information would be relatively assumed in order to better work together. And when I asked you about what you had off the coast of NC, you told me you had twenty submarines. It was thus implied that as allies, I knew where you were. The argument can be made that you knew where I was too, but you did not ask where I was. I believe I merely mentioned that the majority of my fleet was off the coast of Port Johnson...which was attacked by the way.

3. If Saint Fedski attacked Port Johnson, why would you even assume that SF submarines fired on your submarines?

4. If you're not going to give technical specifications then you can a) use RL equipment, b) make technical specifications or c) not RP war.

5. Assuming we all have similar weapons is a huge mistake as I do not use heavy tanks or slow vehicles like some nations do. My aircraft are small and quick like hummingbirds. Even my bombers are small and quick. I took a lot of time to 'design' my CF-17 fighters, Kahanistan as huge, heavily armed aircraft that he no doubt took time to design. The Macabees definitely took a ton of time to design his Lu-45 Hawk which I also use. I know that you use your own fighters (12-11) and your own artillery (FastFirerIV) but those are just names with nothing to support them. If you want your own designs, either provide realistic stats or change the name of the RL weapon.

6. Obsolete is one's own opinion. The battleship may be the naval equal to artillery. One could argue that if battleships are obsolete then so are howitzers and mortars. If you think something is obsolete, then don't use it. If I think I can use a certain weapon effectively, I'll use it.

To answer your primary question (noting that I did specifically post Tobias Grey and Sullivan discussing you as a danger before you attacked); it was again NC's big mouth giving away clues. He placed an article in his regional paper which contained information he could only have gotten from you.

Link to the discussion?
Link to the article?

Okay I think that covers 1-3. 4 is that I didn't choose to RP this war; it was thrown upon me; however I remain of the objection that war is about wider scale movements (and too often ignored political factors, NB NC's ability to continue a war against a completely innocent nation with no voter backlash) rather than technical specifications. Wars are not fought between engineers; but generals and politicians.

The 11-12 is basically a name; basically an F-18(?) renamed after the time. I'll try to find some stats; but basically assume that its the main US model of what is being described (but perhaps a little faster).

Actually obselete would tend to be your enemies opinions; having to rely on them to make thier own casualty estimates.

Even if there is lack of people support, there is still enough support in parliament to support the PM, and thus continue a war.

And Farmina, innocent is a POV thing. OOCly, I would still regard Farmina as a nation that I would not consider innocent. I would compare it to something like Iraq, maybe even Hitler before he took over the Reichstag.

Also, if you truly did not want a war, why did you not take that deal from Peters, before he went nuts?

SF the discussion I seemed to have imagined; however there is a reference to it early in this post.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11539602&postcount=118
NC's post was (but is no longer) on the Reformed Oceania board.

Even if there is lack of people support, there is still enough support in parliament to support the PM, and thus continue a war.

And Farmina, innocent is a POV thing. OOCly, I would still regard Farmina as a nation that I would not consider innocent. I would compare it to something like Iraq, maybe even Hitler before he took over the Reichstag.
Parliament's only tend to support wars when there is reasonable popular support. Peace protestors and elections (which you admitted is coming up) tend to be rather troublesome.

I can't see any similarity to Iraq other than both nations have far too much desert and there is the strong presence of religous groups (neither being a crime). As to the comparison with Weinmar Germany; I don't think they were guilty of anything; with the exception of keeping a few tanks under the bed.

Isn't Farmina a desert? And what about the Grey Catholic Church, or the blackshirts?

And by and large, Iraq was actually pretty secular. Before the First Gulf War, women need no need to wear the traditional robes or headscarves (forgot their name).

Farmina, as for elections, it's like John Howard. Sure, he is a shit option, but there is no better option.

Isn't Farmina a desert? And what about the Grey Catholic Church, or the blackshirts?

And by and large, Iraq was actually pretty secular. Before the First Gulf War, women need no need to wear the traditional robes or headscarves (forgot their name).

Farmina, as for elections, it's like John Howard. Sure, he is a shit option, but there is no better option.
I was very proud to vote Howard at the last election; and will in the HoR at the next one. I would also say that is an unfair slur of Beazley. But enough Australian politics...the point is even Howard has to listen to public opinion; and I doubt he could survive attacking New Zealand for example.

Anyway; I think you misread what I said. Yes Farmina is largely desert; and we do have the Grey Catholic Church (NOT run by President Grey).

The blackshirts/Enforcers are more debatable. Their connection to the Moralists, especially Rickhart could be dubious, but Rickhart is now in exile and most of the black-shirts have been conscripted (no special favors for Moralist supporters). The blackshirts are not officially connected to the party; nor can the party exert any real substantial control over them (the exception being Rickhart). The Enforcers are prepared to do party work, perfectly legitimate; and as a registered organisation they have the right to win government work (such as the oversight of the dismantlement of Reaction Corp). The consitution ensures both the right to form organisations and to bear arms; which means the blackshirts could be neither disbanded or disarmed without constitutional change.

Probably the best thing for the blackshirts is that they are so well behaved, having defended Farmina's democracy (potentially the SGC himself); not to mention they have those nice, tight black uniforms.

4. If you're not going to give technical specifications then you can a) use RL equipment, b) make technical specifications or c) not RP war.

As I said before, you have a point. But on afterthought, Farmina has announced what his army is like. He is MT, which means fighter jets with heat-seaking and radar missiles, carriers, a few battleships, subs, and everything else you see today. He also stated that his army does things faster. For example, his tanks maneuver a lot faster than my massive tanks, and can outmaneuver an Abrams, for the sacrifise of armor. As well, their artillery, the FastFirerIV is self-explanitory.

So in other words, his army has the following traits:

- Very high unit production. (Economy related)
- All vehicles move somewhat faster, small, and harder to hit than normal.
- All vehicles have less armor than normal.
- Infantry are normal.
- Artillery has a faster firing speed than normal.

Not much else to explain. Nitty gritty should be done, but that should be more than enough info. Just think in MT terms, and you should be okay.

5. Assuming we all have similar weapons is a huge mistake as I do not use heavy tanks or slow vehicles like some nations do. My aircraft are small and quick like hummingbirds. Even my bombers are small and quick. I took a lot of time to 'design' my CF-17 fighters, Kahanistan as huge, heavily armed aircraft that he no doubt took time to design. The Macabees definitely took a ton of time to design his Lu-45 Hawk which I also use. I know that you use your own fighters (12-11) and your own artillery (FastFirerIV) but those are just names with nothing to support them. If you want your own designs, either provide realistic stats or change the name of the RL weapon.

As in my previous quote, his army is based on speed as well. That means there will be a lot of dodging around. :p

6. Obsolete is one's own opinion. The battleship may be the naval equal to artillery. One could argue that if battleships are obsolete then so are howitzers and mortars. If you think something is obsolete, then don't use it. If I think I can use a certain weapon effectively, I'll use it.

Hense why I've built the modern Punisher class Dreadnoughts, with double the range of standard battleships. That way, they aren't as obsolete. And yes, they are naval artillery! They, among with any other battleship size or larger ship, also have a massive amount of AA guns, which can help cover the carriers. On that note, I know. I play a flight sim called IL-2 that accounts for it, and let me tell you, it ain't pretty. In about ten seconds flat, your plane is swiss cheese. Might still be flying, but it will have a hell of a time making it back home. And this is a World War II flight sim! Imagine now!!

I was very proud to vote Howard at the last election; and will in the HoR at the next one. I would also say that is an unfair slur of Beazley. But enough Australian politics...the point is even Howard has to listen to public opinion; and I doubt he could survive attacking New Zealand for example.

Anyway; I think you misread what I said. Yes Farmina is largely desert; and we do have the Grey Catholic Church (NOT run by President Grey).

The blackshirts/Enforcers are more debatable. Their connection to the Moralists, especially Rickhart could be dubious, but Rickhart is now in exile and most of the black-shirts have been conscripted (no special favors for Moralist supporters). The blackshirts are not officially connected to the party; nor can the party exert any real substantial control over them (the exception being Rickhart). The Enforcers are prepared to do party work, perfectly legitimate; and as a registered organisation they have the right to win government work (such as the oversight of the dismantlement of Reaction Corp). The consitution ensures both the right to form organisations and to bear arms; which means the blackshirts could be neither disbanded or disarmed without constitutional change.

Probably the best thing for the blackshirts is that they are so well behaved, having defended Farmina's democracy (potentially the SGC himself); not to mention they have those nice, tight black uniforms.

He survived attacking Iraq, despite opinion polls suggesting otherwise. And if you cas tyour mind back, it was Mark Latham in the opposition seat, not Beazley.

You seem to have written it in a way that the Farminan Moralist Party is linked with the Blackshirts, as if the blackshirts are part of the Party itself. Nevertheless, I could just say the Blackshirts are a terrorist organisation, engaged in 'dirty warfare' against it's opposition, and that the Farminan Government is corraborating with them.

He survived attacking Iraq, despite opinion polls suggesting otherwise. And if you cas tyour mind back, it was Mark Latham in the opposition seat, not Beazley.

You seem to have written it in a way that the Farminan Moralist Party is linked with the Blackshirts, as if the blackshirts are part of the Party itself. Nevertheless, I could just say the Blackshirts are a terrorist organisation, engaged in 'dirty warfare' against it's opposition, and that the Farminan Government is corraborating with them.
Opinion polls count for very little; much like Mark "CabCharge" Latham.

On the more relevant note; black-shirts haven't targeted other political parties and really don't count as terrorists; as terrorists have to incite terror (terrorist is a buzz word these days). I suppose you could say that they were; but the reality is you can say that whatever you please; it doesn't mean the people will believe it. The black-shirts are a dubious organisation I admit that; but not outright sinister.

Most people would actually, one of those being the guy behind this screen.

In any case, I'm RPing there is enough support, elections don't usually happen during a war period (the SGC must be mad if he tries, and he need a request from the PM anyway, who probably won't call an election so that Farmina can't take advantage at the power vacuum)

One would assume but that the PM is looking to the election.

Off the side track. Where were we? Right, SF asked how big a wing was; 12 fighters unless other wised stated. Having read an earlier NC post; I know realise only one bomber was being sent to Alice and am happy to accept that a single bomber got through Farmina's air defences. Whether it will get out is another question.

In any case, I'm RPing there is enough support, elections don't usually happen during a war period (the SGC must be mad if he tries, and he need a request from the PM anyway, who probably won't call an election so that Farmina can't take advantage at the power vacuum)

One word: Vietman. Don't be kidding me, please.

Funny you say that, today is the anniversary of the Battle of Long Tan.

Remember though, that's an oversimplification. Vietnam was many factors, most of which would probably be irrreverent here. Vietnam had no real strategic aim, aside from 'get rid of the commies.' There is a strategic aim here. To eliminate oppressors by the use of force to topulate the illegal government. It was also the 70s, and Vietnam coincided with alot of the start of distrusting of the government. Among other things that I really don't have time to discuss.

And I am Vietnamese, so for God's sake, spell it correctly.

Initially your intention was to replace Palmer with Grey; by force (as opposed to parliamentary vote; which despite Palmer's ranting is not illegal). Now you intend to replace who with who? Grey, Palmer, Rickhart and possibly Ravenstart are the only real candidates for leadership in Farmina.

If it's not written in the laws, it's illegal.

And as for that question, I really don't know. It really depends where we end up in this RP.

Some strategic aim.

And laws don't say what is legal; they saw that is illegal. Laws say "do not steal" as opposed to "engage in free trades." There is no law saying I can scratch my head; I have not yet been arrested for doing so.

If it's not written in the laws, it's illegal.

Correction. If it's not written in the laws, it's called a loophole. :p

Farmina, for all I know, they could all be dead by the time this RP ends.

And thanks to MES for clearing that up.

Farmina, there's more then one bomber.

And thanks to MES for clearing that up.

In other words, a loophole means it's legal, although a rather dirty trick of one. But Farmina's description also applies.

Other B-2 were sent to bomb the Farminan military base at Alice.
That is the only clue ever given to the number of bombers.

Thats still more then one, otherwise, I'll use 'another' rather then 'other

But its a secret how many there are?

If there was more than one; I expect them to have taken antiair fire.

2, 3?

And you can hardly see it on radar, how can you actually go ahead and shoot it with anti-air.

2, 3?

And you can hardly see it on radar, how can you actually go ahead and shoot it with anti-air.

Sorry, NC. That attack will be ignored until you give a definite number. Sorry to be a jackass, but you can't make estimates. I've so far called out EXPLICIT numbers of what I'm attacking with, where I'm attacking, what I'm attacking with, how fast, and if applicable, how high they are.

To say "maybe two or three", is virtually a contradiction or a double standard to what you said of Farmina's forces, and how he didn't explain what they included.

Also don't forget about the counter I mentioned. As well, he scrambled fighters. Something that big, and that black would be visible to the naked eye, and since the B-2 is designed to deflect radar waves from the surface, the fighters would be able to see them, if at reduced radar range. Since the B-2 is a high altitude bomber, his fighter CAPs would be also up high.

Please, exact number, or I give Farmina explicit instructions to ignore you for this attack.

Remember though, that's an oversimplification. Vietnam was many factors, most of which would probably be irrreverent here. Vietnam had no real strategic aim, aside from 'get rid of the commies.' There is a strategic aim here. To eliminate oppressors by the use of force to topulate the illegal government. It was also the 70s, and Vietnam coincided with alot of the start of distrusting of the government. Among other things that I really don't have time to discuss.

Incorrect. You're in a war against Farmina because of false or manipulated evidence planted by Snyder. As well, Palmer's Presidency was democratically legal, which was who was in power at the time, so that isn't an excuse. As well, Tobias took over due to evidence of corruption as an INTERM President. And that's switching back to Palmer now.

So in other words?

- You're in a war under false pretences and facts.
- You're in a war to overthrow a government that is although corrupt, is keeping stability in Farmina.

Oh my, that sounds almost just like Iraq! Well...almost. Iraq never counterattacked the US. :P

Oh, and on a side note, let me show you something:
http://edf.tauniverse.com/AttackWing.jpg

I calculated that that photo has about 120 of my fighters and bombers. Multiply that, and that's what was/is hitting your fleet. Just a few ships? C'mon! In midway a small air fleet sunk four carriers! :rolleyes:

Sorry, NC. That attack will be ignored until you give a definite number.
Since I've already posted casualties; it doesn't matter that much.

And you can hardly see it on radar, how can you actually go ahead and shoot it with anti-air.
Continual air patrols above major cities; shooting every plausible frequency through the air. Satellites; and great deals of defence analysists. I assure you that picking up two-three bombers is more than plausible and more to the point.

Also I'm calling godmod on your bombers just waltzing through Ricco's massive airdefences. You yourself have described it as madness to attack Ricco from the air; noting what happened to Messian airforces who tried.

I'll have to consult on your ability to simply shut down my airdefences by firing a frequency. However if it was possible; I'm sure I'd have seen someone do it by now.

Farmina, let me brief you on how stealth technology works.

There are two aspects to stealth technology. First of all, the aircraft itself. In normal aircraft, the body of the plane is quite smooth. Reason being, aerodynamics. The more aerodynamic a plane is, the better it is able to fly (in terms of speed, manuovering etc..) On planes such as the F-117 and the B-2 bomber, the body is not smooth. Rather, they are shaped in such a way so that as much traditional radar waves will fly around all over the place, away from the radar dish itself. This is probably why the mobile tower thing would work (but see below). This means, no matter what kind of frequency you fire at the B-2 it will just bounce off.

The other thing is the material on the B-2 bomber itself(RAM if I remember right). It is designed so that it absorbs as much radar waves as possible.

And guys, all missiles use radar to achieve a lock on a target.

In regards to the mobile phone thing. Yes, MES it is possible. It does not mean that Farmina has that technology (and on the basis of his posts, I assume he has not have that technology). Just in the same way why Russia and China don't have that kind of tech yet (because of cost), neither does Farmina. You need to acknoledge that it takes a lot of manpower, electrical power and computer systems to get that to work together perfectly.

And Farmina, I posted 2 times about that without you responding. In the same manner as you attacking my carriers, that indicates a implied allowance for attack.

The jamming of frequencies like that is the BASIC PREMISE of electronic counter-measures. And it's also bad (for you) that we can also scan every single possible frequency that you can end up changing into, and then responding in kind. So more or less, those missiles sites are dead. In any case, changing the signals means you also change your picture, meaning you really won't have a clue who's who on the radar.

MES, I'm give Farmina a bit of freedom to declare how much planes, partly because of my mistake, but I refer to what I said. "Other" indicates more the n one usually. You never use "other person" to refer to one person. You either use "The other person"(used for the last person to be mentioned) or "Another Person".

And I believe many of them were burnt to crisp, not all were. It would be to chaotic atm to. I have not mentioned how many died yet, because realistically, it would be too chaotic realistically to give an actual count.

And it looked more like a revolution to me. Grey only managed to regain power, becasue the blackshirts won a critial victory against the Reaction Corp. That bit has been emphasised in the media, if you read the Colonial Daily reports that are coming out. Now you can put a lot of spin with things, but that fact remains.that has been shown alot. The opposition leader is pro-war too, one of the major news outlets are also pro-war. Think about it.

And Palmer is still an offically wanted person in the Northern Colonies.

And as for the other bombs, I've assumed they have hit the CCR ships instead. I'll leave updating kills for him.

Now you can put a lot of spin with things, but that fact remains.that has been shown alot. The opposition leader is pro-war too, one of the major news outlets are also pro-war. Think about it.

So your nation is a psyeudo dictatorship telling the people what to think, and a government that wants to create a new balance of power all over the world, making it a globally corrupt democracy. Oh my, no wonder why you were working for Snyder! :rolleyes:

The jamming of frequencies like that is the BASIC PREMISE of electronic counter-measures. And it's also bad (for you) that we can also scan every single possible frequency that you can end up changing into, and then responding in kind. So more or less, those missiles sites are dead. In any case, changing the signals means you also change your picture, meaning you really won't have a clue who's who on the radar.
Two problems there. I doubt you can block multiple frequencies at once; plus the time lag problem. You have to recalculate the frequency after the rockets been targeted. This means its trajectory is already set and I doubt you have the time to deploy the correct counter measures.

Also my defence personal are more than capable of cross referencing between different technologies (like satellite) to get the targeting they need.

And it looked more like a revolution to me. Grey only managed to regain power, becasue the blackshirts won a critial victory against the Reaction Corp.
The Parliament passed Grey back to power early in the piece (although Rickhart was already causing RC a headache). The black-shirts were given the power to enforce the law in the absence of a policeforce. Perhaps slightly revolutionary; but RC were a bunch of thugs, so it isn't particularly unreasonable behaviour.

And Palmer is still an offically wanted person in the Northern ColoniesDespite there being no logical legal grounds...I've come to realise your legal system is rather third rate.

And Farmina, I posted 2 times about that without you responding. In the same manner as you attacking my carriers, that indicates a implied allowance for attack.
You posted the planes taking off. I posted standard preperations being made. Regarding Alice you posted the approach. No additional posts other than that you got through at Ricco were made as far as I'm aware.


We were talking about UN Catagories the other day; this week I'm an Unoffensive Centralist Democracy...

err.. no.

The premis doesn't follow the conclusion. Just because the opposition happens to support the war, does not make it a dictatorship, even a psuedo one (Farmina could be more of a canidate for that marker). And there would be people against the war. Just not enough to topulate the government as of this point in time.

You can't guide missiles using satellite either. To much of a time delay, which could be a problem in a combat situation.

Trajectories can not be set. You need some sort of way to guide the missile to it's target. Since you have not stated an exact model, I'm assuming it's radar-guided (most are). Ideally, you need to same frequency if you want it to be linked with one radar station.

And ICly, the people don't know about the stuff MES gave during the treaty, and his stuff needs to be verified in any case. Just because Peters responded the way he did, doesn't make it true. What the MES guys should've done was to move the stuff to the FIB, so they could investigate it. That would've happened until you didn't agree on the proposal.


Snyder looked over the battle map, and saw the Alpha wings of fighters moving at high speed and altitude towards the enemy bombers. Through hacking into the Farminan cell phone network, triangulation, and smart use of satellites, he could see the echos of the bombers. Although it wasn't perfect, it would get the fighters close enough for visual range.

I'm calling godmod on this one. Farmina needs the infrastructure already in place. And even if you could, you need a lot of bandwith and connection speed if you want a chance of ever seeing the blimps.

And just to curtell on the satellite usage. I am tell you know, satellites are USELESS in most tactical situations*, so don't go on about how your satellites can guide torpedo missiles crap, cause I've had enough of it.

*Exception being building-type targets.

You can't guide missiles using satellite either. To much of a time delay, which could be a problem in a combat situation.What I said was that the satellites were used to cross reference radar information; that is to ensure the new frequencies are working. Plus, it will take some time for your fighters to arrive; so that isn't a problem.

Trajectories can not be set. You need some sort of way to guide the missile to it's target. Since you have not stated an exact model, I'm assuming it's radar-guided (most are). Ideally, you need to same frequency if you want it to be linked with one radar station.[/I]
I am sure you can preprogram a trajectory. Furthermore; once a missile is in the air; if it losses guidance it will continue on its current on its current course.

[QUOTE=Northern Colonies]And ICly, the people don't know about the stuff MES gave during the treaty, and his stuff needs to be verified in any case. Just because Peters responded the way he did, doesn't make it true. What the MES guys should've done was to move the stuff to the FIB, so they could investigate it. That would've happened until you didn't agree on the proposal.The stuff was made publically available. If your investigation services can't even be bothered gathering and verifying the most basic information used to justify the war; it really doesn't say much for your government and legal process still.

I'm calling godmod on this one. Farmina needs the infrastructure already in place. And even if you could, you need a lot of bandwith and connection speed if you want a chance of ever seeing the blimps.Farmina has a very high level of info tech infrastructure. Its a big industry in peacetime; a long with motor vehicle production.

but things dont come out of thin air. You need to have already had that tech, and from the sounds of your post, you don't.

You cant preprogram a trajectory except when the target isn't moving. That is why I gave the exception that satellites can help target buildings. Missiles are constantly guided in to the missile, so if you lose the radar sight, either the missile drops off, or the missile become non-threatening.

And not the MES evidence itself. You only gave the negoiation tapes away. As much as watch Peters be shock may be interesting, thats no evidence to either convict or drop the charges.

The MES attack may be more plausable. Plus the evidence Snyder gave, then it seems it could be enough to send Palmer to court.

but things dont come out of thin air. You need to have already had that tech, and from the sounds of your post, you don't.
Farmina has wide scanning technology. It is a vital component of Farminan doctorine.

And not the MES evidence itself. You only gave the negoiation tapes away. As much as watch Peters be shock may be interesting, thats no evidence to either convict or drop the charges.

The MES attack may be more plausable. Plus the evidence Snyder gave, then it seems it could be enough to send Palmer to court.
Macisikan gave copies of Foster's evidence to each party. Farmina would certainly publish its copy; and you could easily ask Macisikan for another copy, and considering Peters reaction (considering that Macisikan's security camera's according to you didn't capture the evidence) there would certainly be some reason to suspect that the evidence did exist.
However you still don't have a case if you ignore Foster's evidence; you have the word of a tyrant, and nothing linking the engagement to Palmer, other than he was a shareholder. Furthermore, since it was international, and within international law, there can be no possible case to answer. NC doesn't have any rights to regulate international waters.

(considering that Macisikan's security camera's according to you didn't capture the evidence)

I'd like to point out that dictating what my cameras did and did not capture without asking me first is not only a god mod, but very poor form.

If we're talking about the MES doing naughty things, then no, they didn't; because the MES didn't actually do anything naughty that could be linked back to them (the assassination thing was also recorded, but that had been worked out before; no hard evidence linking the matter to the MES). We did record Foster's testimony in the room, but we only have his word to go on.

If we're talking about Peters being a naughty boy, then the security cameras, audio recordings, Farminan delegation, Macisikani observers and at least fifty guards, protocol officers and stewards saw him.

The Castle was built with the intention of hosting conferences at which every single detail would need to be on the record for when someone cried foul. With the sole exception of the two little private chats between the Baron and Romano and the Prince and Romano, and any conversations in the Warden's office, every word that was said inside the Castle itself was recorded.

And yes, my External Affairs Ministry will provide transcripts, recordings, etc. of the conference (right up until post #127 with the exceptions noted above) to all and sundry who ask for them.

The reference was with regard to Foster's video evidence.

I don't recall him ever actually playing that tape, so probably no, that isn't on record.
But that's fixable.

That would explain why NC reckoned no one viewing the negotiations could see them. But as you say; the point remains, the evidence is openly available.

Farmina has wide scanning technology. It is a vital component of Farminan doctorine.


Oh no you don't. That's just something you have put in ad hoc. You have never, ever stated before that you have had that capability for such technology, even when I bombed you at Ricco. You would've stated something between command or whatever, but you went straight to casuality, which infers that you did not see an attack coming. And I don't even think you read the article. It is hardly 'wide scanning' tech as you say. It is using mobile phone towers as receptors for radar waves bouncing off aircraft. That needs a lot of processing power, and as a result, power to run it.

Oh, and on a side note, let me show you something:
http://edf.tauniverse.com/AttackWing.jpg

I calculated that that photo has about 120 of my fighters and bombers. Multiply that, and that's what was/is hitting your fleet. Just a few ships? C'mon! In midway a small air fleet sunk four carriers!

Ok... now that a godmod. Answer these questions

1/ Where/How the hell did you launch that much aircraft?
2/ Do you realise the moment I launch a single missile, most of those aircraft will run into each other, trying to dodge the missiles.

Just because I'm unaware of something OOCly; doesn't mean I wouldn't have it ICly; otherwise the RPers in the military and especially in R&D would have a significant advantage over the rest of us (and these do exist, I assure you). There are thousands of things none of us have ever considered. For example, how many secetaries does your PM have. Now if you give a poor answer, it obviously means that your nation suffers vast inefficiencies. I've never thought about the exact engines in my tanks; would you claim my tanks don't have engines?

Anyway; would you accept a wing of Farminan jets flying in and shooting down the vehicle? Absolutely same effect; just as easy.

I am aware of the detail of the articles; MES and I were discussing them a couple of days ago. "Wide scanning" capabilities is exactly that; Farmina employees every observation technique it can think of; as it is key to a doctorine of fluid war.

A lot of the very good RP'ers would spend hours researching technology so that they have an edge over everyone else. Lots of discussion too about feasibility. Because having very good technology and how to use it would give them the technology. And to reply to that example, whenever you have a situation where I need to introduce a secretary (like when I shredded your message) then I'll do so. Until then, it's irrevelant.

In any case, I'm stilll calling the fact that you seemed to have magically created this system out of thin air as a godmod. You've never introduced it ICly before. Also, MES, by virtue of hacking in your system is attacking you, and because he has assumed a successful attack, he has also godmodded.

PS: I'm edging fairly close to exam period. So for the next few weeks, my post will be sporatic, if any at all.

A lot of the very good RP'ers would spend hours researching technology so that they have an edge over everyone else. Lots of discussion too about feasibility. Because having very good technology and how to use it would give them the technology.
I however have a life...and if we are criticising knowledge of technology; I would suggest that your damage shows even less knowledge of what modern weapons can do to steel than mine.

In any case, I'm stilll calling the fact that you seemed to have magically created this system out of thin air as a godmod. You've never introduced it ICly before.
I never mentioned any form of radar or scanning before actually (other than infra-red on satellites); so are you suggesting I don't have radar either? You cannot just ignore things because I haven't mentioned them before. I haven't mentioned the Suppressor before. I simply haven't mentioned them because it was irrelevant. I have however discussed heavy investment in surviellance technology, without going into specifics. Plus all I claimed I was doing was changing the frequency (I could have been switching to something other than mobile phone frequency).

Anyway, you ignored my question regarding whether you would accept a fighter strike killing the Raven.

Also, MES, by virtue of hacking in your system is attacking you, and because he has assumed a successful attack, he has also godmodded.
You know perfectly well that MES and I discuss these matters in great detail.

I however have a life...and if we are criticising knowledge of technology; I would suggest that your damage shows even less knowledge of what modern weapons can do to steel than mine.

For the love of God, the Carriers are not made of steel anymore. I mentioned a ship destruction count. That's a lot of ships you got there. And, FYI, according to alot of NS guys around here, modern weapons are in fact weaker then their WW2 counterparts.


I never mentioned any form of radar or scanning before actually (other than infra-red on satellites); so are you suggesting I don't have radar either? You cannot just ignore things because I haven't mentioned them before. I haven't mentioned the Suppressor before. I simply haven't mentioned them because it was irrelevant. I have however discussed heavy investment in surviellance technology, without going into specifics. Plus all I claimed I was doing was changing the frequency (I could have been switching to something other than mobile phone frequency).

By the way to react to me, I can infer that you do have radar-capable aircraft. On the same token, the fact that you didn't write anything saying that you saw my bombers and let it bomb anyway, can infer that you dont have anything that can detect B-2 Bombers (that's when it would have been relevant). And for that matter, you haven't mentioned anything ICly about your 'extensive' radar tech.

Also, There's only a certain band of frequency you can go to, before you render your own dish useless.


Anyway, you ignored my question regarding whether you would accept a fighter strike killing the Raven.

Who the hell is the Raven?

Ok... now that a godmod. Answer these questions

1/ Where/How the hell did you launch that much aircraft?
2/ Do you realise the moment I launch a single missile, most of those aircraft will run into each other, trying to dodge the missiles.

Bullshit with a capital B. Those numbers are realistic, especially for a nation my size.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/thousand_bomber_raid.htm

Read that ENTIRE page. Here's two excerpts.

"Bombers took off at 22.30 from 53 bases across Britain."
"However, for all the bombs dropped, Cologne was not destroyed. Industrial life around the city was paralysed for a week but within six months it had recovered. Of the 1,046 bombers that took part in the raid, 39 were lost - primarily to night fighters. This represented a loss of 4% which was considered the maximum Bomber Command could sustain."

In other words, this is damn well possible. And this is from a nation of only 138,397,000 people at the time! What's worse, my population is over 21 times larger! I could have been a REAL SOB and sent in a flight of 21000 planes to sink the fleet, AND be not God Modding! Seriously, DO THE MATH! READ HISTORY! :headbang:

As for collisions, A) They have computer flight control systems that keep them in a formation. Ever heard of autopilot, or even terrain following radar? And B) I attacked in three waves, half my bombers was one, napalm second, remainder third. Less planes, but I do see your point. But as I said, radar.

For the love of God, the Carriers are not made of steel anymore. I mentioned a ship destruction count. That's a lot of ships you got there. And, FYI, according to alot of NS guys around here, modern weapons are in fact weaker then their WW2 counterparts.

By all realism, your fleet should have been completely sunk by Farmina's joint fleet ALONE. The bombers should have sunked the fleet two times over.

As for your modern weapons being weaker, I dobut it. They may have become weaker, but guidance systems have increased their accuracy, and thus, more damage.

But in my Factbook, I've explicitedly explained all of my technologies I've written up to date, inside of it. I use PDE's for engines. I use larger cannons for air combat. I use missiles as secondary weapons rather than primary weapons in air combat. I use a lot of GPS technology, spy satellites with both infared and night vision abilities, and those pesky weapons satellites. I've explained a lot. My bombers in the attack run are attacking with no less than eight TWO THOUSAND POUND BOMBS. One plane should theoryatically be able to sink a carrier with that alone. As well, those XB-110's should also be able to do the same thing, with their heavy torpedoes. In scale terms, each torpedo it carries is the width, yet three times the length of the 2000 pound bombs!

I've quite frankly had enough of your estimates. RP this war as a Roleplay, not to win, because you can't. You're outnumbered two to one, outproduced three to one, and have been blockaded. For your information, my nation after this will be invaded, and I'll be roleplaying to lose, because I can't win against a nation like Farminas, though I'll make him suffer for ever inch of ground.

By the way to react to me, I can infer that you do have radar-capable aircraft. On the same token, the fact that you didn't write anything saying that you saw my bombers and let it bomb anyway, can infer that you dont have anything that can detect B-2 Bombers (that's when it would have been relevant). And for that matter, you haven't mentioned anything ICly about your 'extensive' radar tech.

But here's the thing. By using Farmina's dish network, using a high speed satellite hookup from a number of satellites in orbit, as well as infared scanning (it would pick up the heat signatures of the engines. Yes, the B-2 has it reduced; but a jet engine is a jet engine). Eventually, my fighters will arrive, don their infared scanners, and eyeball the bombers after the generalized triangulization occurs.

And you say stealths can't be shot down?

http://www.aeronautics.ru/f117down.htm

This F-117 was not only shot down, but it was shot down by RADAR! Apparently, they may have used long-wave radar, which seems to penetrate the stealth ability. For RP's sake, we won't use that juicy timbit, but there are billions of ways to shoot one down.

Bullshit with a capital B. Those numbers are realistic, especially for a nation my size.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...omber_raid.htm

Read that ENTIRE page. Here's two excerpts.


In other words, this is damn well possible. And this is from a nation of only 138,397,000 people at the time! What's worse, my population is over 21 times larger! I could have been a REAL SOB and sent in a flight of 21000 planes to sink the fleet, AND be not God Modding! Seriously, DO THE MATH! READ HISTORY!

You have to send them in waves. And in anycase, if you have a pop of 138,397,000, thats around about 13,839,700 possible troops (in all services). Of that only 10 percent can really actually be foot soldiers the rest being the cooks, commanders, paperpushers etc. , so that 1.3 Million [all services again]. Now, depending on how you allocate positions, in the airforce, you could have say a quarter[army 25, navy 50(im judging that on your ship sizes)] in the airforce, so thats around 400,000 thousand. Of that, the airforce requires engineers too, so that's down to say 200,000[more planes = more engineers, especially if you have custom made planes]. Of that, many would still be in MES, to defend it. I'm also questioning whether you have the capability to move that much bombers at the one time, and if you can even get it there (you've made no mention of logistics).


As for collisions, A) They have computer flight control systems that keep them in a formation. Ever heard of autopilot, or even terrain following radar? And B) I attacked in three waves, half my bombers was one, napalm second, remainder third. Less planes, but I do see your point. But as I said, radar.

Mate, autopilot is useless the moment you have to actually move somewhere. I should know it better then anyone. I'm right now learning to fly one.

And in waves it may be more feasible, but you sure didn't write it like that. You wrote that they all came in a clump.


By all realism, your fleet should have been completely sunk by Farmina's joint fleet ALONE. The bombers should have sunked the fleet two times over.

As for your modern weapons being weaker, I dobut it. They may have become weaker, but guidance systems have increased their accuracy, and thus, more damage.

That seems to be the consensus of the some of the bigger RPers here right now. Not to say whether they are right or not, but if you were to RP with some of the bigger names in NS, thats what they would expect you to react with.

And if you had not realised, I've gone back behind CCR's battleships. So if you're wondering why I haven't responded to the attacks, they have hit his ships not mine, and I cant do damages on his behalf.


But in my Factbook, I've explicitedly explained all of my technologies I've written up to date, inside of it. I use PDE's for engines. I use larger cannons for air combat. I use missiles as secondary weapons rather than primary weapons in air combat. I use a lot of GPS technology, spy satellites with both infared and night vision abilities, and those pesky weapons satellites. I've explained a lot. My bombers in the attack run are attacking with no less than eight TWO THOUSAND POUND BOMBS. One plane should theoryatically be able to sink a carrier with that alone. As well, those XB-110's should also be able to do the same thing, with their heavy torpedoes. In scale terms, each torpedo it carries is the width, yet three times the length of the 2000 pound bombs!


I keep saying it, and saying at again, and again. You cant use fucking satellites for anything other then looking at what the enemy is doing. How many more times do I have to say it before I go mad?

And if you use cannons before missiles, I should have completely won that air battle between the few fighters I had against yours. And further to that, it's too hard to get cannons to shoot down missiles. You need to manvouver, and that's where lighter planes have a advantage over heavier ones.

Remember bombers are slow, which means, theorically, you would have lost a whole heap of bombers by now.

AS for the torpedo, that thing would sink. There's no way, you can make a engine that would move that anywhere.


But here's the thing. By using Farmina's dish network, using a high speed satellite hookup from a number of satellites in orbit, as well as infared scanning (it would pick up the heat signatures of the engines. Yes, the B-2 has it reduced; but a jet engine is a jet engine). Eventually, my fighters will arrive, don their infared scanners, and eyeball the bombers after the generalized triangulization occurs.

And you say stealths can't be shot down?

http://www.aeronautics.ru/f117down.htm

This F-117 was not only shot down, but it was shot down by RADAR! Apparently, they may have used long-wave radar, which seems to penetrate the stealth ability. For RP's sake, we won't use that juicy timbit, but there are billions of ways to shoot one down.

There's one problem. It's daylight (Infrared uses goggles, not a screen like radar). Your gonna get alot of heat out of a lot of places [the sun, remembering the desert]. This would make your goggles next to useless. (You can try this, try shining a very big light though glass, or something transparent. That is what your pilots would be seeing). Infrared is next to useless.

And as for that attack. Yes I am aware of it, and I would say that the shooter got lucky. By using that as evidence, you're ignoring all the other attacks which have gone right though enemy defensive radar. It's an example of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias (Selective Bias) and a logical fallacy at that.


I've quite frankly had enough of your estimates. RP this war as a Roleplay, not to win, because you can't. You're outnumbered two to one, outproduced three to one, and have been blockaded. For your information, my nation after this will be invaded, and I'll be roleplaying to lose, because I can't win against a nation like Farminas, though I'll make him suffer for ever inch of ground.

It's not numbers that win the war. There are RPers that were against huge numbers of troops, and won. And Farmina could have not blockaded against the NC, unless he is willing to piss off Rotovia and Crete (and a few other nations, I'm sure.) And Farmina can't do that, cause he is counting on Rotovia not responding so that if need be, he could invade the Northern Colonies without their interference.

Also, if you haven't read, the numbers are even atm. I'm behind CCR's ships.

If you have already discussed the result of the hypothetical invasion, then that's OK. I personally find that concept stupid as it makes the RP boring as you're not aiming for something.

Who the hell is the Raven?
Also deployed was designated Electionic Warfare aircraft, the EF-111A Raven.
I'm suspecting you're "great" techincal knowledge isn't all its cracked up to be.

Also the orginal B2 strike would have been set months ago; under very different circumstance (we thought you were suing for peace). That strike is completely irrelevant. As I said; it was allowed because it made such great propoganda (you can't deny it wasn't).

You have to send them in waves. And in anycase, if you have a pop of 138,397,000, thats around about 13,839,700 possible troops (in all services). Of that only 10 percent can really actually be foot soldiers the rest being the cooks, commanders, paperpushers etc. , so that 1.3 Million [all services again]. Now, depending on how you allocate positions, in the airforce, you could have say a quarter[army 25, navy 50(im judging that on your ship sizes)] in the airforce, so thats around 400,000 thousand. Of that, the airforce requires engineers too, so that's down to say 200,000[more planes = more engineers, especially if you have custom made planes]. Of that, many would still be in MES, to defend it. I'm also questioning whether you have the capability to move that much bombers at the one time, and if you can even get it there (you've made no mention of logistics).
Thats Britain's former population; not MES's. You also seem to be claiming Britain was unable to carry out a strike it did in fact carry out...


That seems to be the consensus of the some of the bigger RPers here right now. Not to say whether they are right or not, but if you were to RP with some of the bigger names in NS, thats what they would expect you to react with.
I've never heard this. I've heard there is a growing overemphasis on technology.


And if you had not realised, I've gone back behind CCR's battleships. So if you're wondering why I haven't responded to the attacks, they have hit his ships not mine, and I cant do damages on his behalf.
You seem to have ignored this involves going straight past my fleet; travelling hunderds of kilometers in smashed ships; while being chased by faster ships and aircraft.

It's not numbers that win the war. There are RPers that were against huge numbers of troops, and won. And Farmina could have not blockaded against the NC, unless he is willing to piss off Rotovia and Crete (and a few other nations, I'm sure.) And Farmina can't do that, cause he is counting on Rotovia not responding so that if need be, he could invade the Northern Colonies without their interference.
I assure you; blockading or invading your nation won't annoy Rotovia in the slightest. But numbers and industry are extremely vital. I'd put them as the top two factors on my list actually.

If you have already discussed the result of the hypothetical invasion, then that's OK. I personally find that concept stupid as it makes the RP boring as you're not aiming for something.
We haven't decided an ending. MES has just accepted a statistical reality; he can't fight himself and me at the same time. The question is how badly he loses; and which characters survive and gain power in both nations respectively.

With regard to Macisikan's comment about how secret; Farmina would certainly be keeping everything hushed up; but it would only be a matter of time before someone notices that Macisikan is shipping Farminan men and supplies out of Ricco and into Rotovia for non-peaceful purposes.

You have to send them in waves. And in anycase, if you have a pop of 138,397,000, thats around about 13,839,700 possible troops (in all services).

As I said, that's the population of the country that pulled off the 1000 bomber raid. On top of that, if you actually read what I posted including links, they attacked in clumps against three targets. They were just staggared. It even metions of having a mid air collision calculated FOR the attack!

I'm also questioning whether you have the capability to move that much bombers at the one time, and if you can even get it there (you've made no mention of logistics).

As I said before, I have a population 21 times the size of the country that did the 1000 bomber raid. As well, all the bombers are carrying droptanks, giving them the range to strike from home.

Mate, autopilot is useless the moment you have to actually move somewhere. I should know it better then anyone. I'm right now learning to fly one.

As I said before, it's not standard autopilot. Like what they use on the self-driving car prototypes, they can detect how close they are to other planes, and compensate for it. As well, as I also mentioned, there IS a thing called Terrain Following Radar. If you've ever read up on it, you can see what autopilot is capable of nowadays.

And in waves it may be more feasible, but you sure didn't write it like that. You wrote that they all came in a clump.

You must intentionally ignore lines when you read. It's not the first time you've completely ignored parts of writing. Let me quote a line, but this isn't the only part of the writing that says so.

"Beta six and seven, good hits! Beta eight and nine commence the attack!" the Captain yelled. In any moment, he would see Mu flight dropping their napalm.

In other words, two wings attacked first, Mu wing attacked second, and two wings attacked third, though later I mentioned that the torpedo bombers also entered the fray.

That seems to be the consensus of the some of the bigger RPers here right now. Not to say whether they are right or not, but if you were to RP with some of the bigger names in NS, thats what they would expect you to react with.

That's because that's how RPing works. The bigger your nation is, the more weight you have to swing around in a war RP. And at the moment, you're being attacked by more than two nations, and soon, another third big one.

And if you had not realised, I've gone back behind CCR's battleships. So if you're wondering why I haven't responded to the attacks, they have hit his ships not mine, and I cant do damages on his behalf.

Farmina said it clearly. CCR's not in a position for your fleet to go around. As well, I don't recall you ever posting that, but that could be just me.

I keep saying it, and saying at again, and again. You cant use fucking satellites for anything other then looking at what the enemy is doing. How many more times do I have to say it before I go mad?

First of all, they're not your normal satellites. They're much more sophsticated than the average one. To be honest, I could see real world nations with such satellites. Anyways, I've explained how they would work. As well, your planes are flying really high, and the higher you go, the less heat is around you. You said they were flying high, so that means it's probably around freezing.

And if you use cannons before missiles, I should have completely won that air battle between the few fighters I had against yours. And further to that, it's too hard to get cannons to shoot down missiles. You need to manvouver, and that's where lighter planes have a advantage over heavier ones.

Let me quote myself:

The 128 fighters of Alpha squadron (which were out of importance range* of anti-air units), flew downwards towards the badly outnumbered Northern Colonies jet fighters. They suddenly opened fire with their 20mm cannons, creating a huge swath of lead.

First of all, that's 128 vs 12 planes. That's an outnumbering of just over ten to one! Regardless how you put it, you can't defeat those odds.

Secondly, check out this link, under Korean war:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F4U_Corsair

To quote:

During the Korean War, the Corsair was used mostly in the close-support role. There were dogfights between F4Us and enemy Yak-9 fighters early in the conflict, but when the enemy introduced the fast MiG-15 jet fighter the Corsair was outmatched, though one Marine pilot did get lucky. On 9 September 1952 a MiG-15 made the mistake of getting into a turning contest with a Corsair piloted by Captain Jesse G. Folmar, with Folmar shooting the MiG down with his four 20 millimeter cannon. The MiG's wingmates quickly had their revenge, shooting down Folmar, though he bailed out and was quickly rescued with little injury.

That's a prop plane shooting down a JET in a combat situation! If one plane can do it, then a gaggle of 128 jets surely could.

Remember bombers are slow, which means, theorically, you would have lost a whole heap of bombers by now.

Not exactly. I posted really early on that their attack speed is around Mach 3. You can't intercept that, and your only hope is a gun spread. Your missiles may not be able to track someone going that fast. You never posted having a gun spread, saying that they're useless, but missiles can only do so much, especially against a gaggle that large.

AS for the torpedo, that thing would sink. There's no way, you can make a engine that would move that anywhere.

What, do you even know how a torpedo even works?! :rolleyes:

Do some serious research on how torpedoes work, or I'm completely ignoring your argument there.

There's one problem. It's daylight (Infrared uses goggles, not a screen like radar). Your gonna get alot of heat out of a lot of places [the sun, remembering the desert]. This would make your goggles next to useless. (You can try this, try shining a very big light though glass, or something transparent. That is what your pilots would be seeing). Infrared is next to useless.

As I said before, your bombers are flying very high. The air up high is near freezing, or even freezing. That advantage is nullified.

And as for that attack. Yes I am aware of it, and I would say that the shooter got lucky. By using that as evidence, you're ignoring all the other attacks which have gone right though enemy defensive radar. It's an example of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias (Selective Bias) and a logical fallacy at that.

I have posted my own casualties, but you have yet to post a solid scale of the firepower put against my air fleet. So far you're taking potshots compared to what I'm doing to you.

It's not numbers that win the war. There are RPers that were against huge numbers of troops, and won. And Farmina could have not blockaded against the NC, unless he is willing to piss off Rotovia and Crete (and a few other nations, I'm sure.) And Farmina can't do that, cause he is counting on Rotovia not responding so that if need be, he could invade the Northern Colonies without their interference.

First of all, you're Godmodding estimates since we started. Secondly, your nation is not military based, or an economy to make it as such. Third, I'm pretty sure there's consensus in that fact.

Also, if you haven't read, the numbers are even atm. I'm behind CCR's ships.

CCR may be involved, yes, but you can't be behind his ships because of how the Farminan fleet is positioned.

If you have already discussed the result of the hypothetical invasion, then that's OK. I personally find that concept stupid as it makes the RP boring as you're not aiming for something.

Then you're not playing this war as you should be. You should be doing this to write a story, not to play a game. You can't win against these odds without Godmodding, and that's exactly what you've been doing. If you keep this up, you're going to permanently ruin your reputation on NS, and thus, no one will want to ever RP with you again, like me.

EDIT - Made the wrong tense in the last paragraph.

OOC: Let's just discuss this over MSN, it's quicker this way.

I'm waiting for MES to get his act together before I post anymore.

...And I'm waiting for NC to post a response. :P

I think NC is just finishing up his exams.

If don't see a post from NC soon; I'm thinking of dropping this.

OOC: NC you haven’t made any comment about the Messian air offensive against your east coast. Also how big is your air defence battalion?
Also do you really think it is possible to find out the frequency I’m using that quickly? It even seems to work on the bizarre assumption that there is only one frequency in use.

And NC your missile just happens to outrange mine. It strikes me that whenever I post something; you have to claim that what you have is always one thing better. The best example; I post a reference to ten tanks; so you immediately claim to have twenty.

OOC: NC you haven’t made any comment about the Messian air offensive against your east coast. Also how big is your air defence battalion?
Also do you really think it is possible to find out the frequency I’m using that quickly? It even seems to work on the bizarre assumption that there is only one frequency in use.

And NC your missile just happens to outrange mine. It strikes me that whenever I post something; you have to claim that what you have is always one thing better. The best example; I post a reference to ten tanks; so you immediately claim to have twenty.

Grr.. MES, you told me West Coast only...

Look up HARM missile Farmina.

One Battaltion = 2000 people-ish. So the battlion has around about 20 or so actual missiles. Note though, I have yet to deploy my own fighters yet.

Grr.. MES, you told me West Coast only...

Look up HARM missile Farmina.

One Battaltion = 2000 people-ish. So the battlion has around about 20 or so actual missiles. Note though, I have yet to deploy my own fighters yet.

No a battilion is between 300-1000 people.

No a battilion is between 300-1000 people.

Can variate between different nations and even within nations. Because the NC Army if fairly huge, it needs a huge logistics train and such to support it (this would be the same for you)

Because the NC Army if fairly huge

This seems to be just another claim of convenience; along with that your people are really stubborn.

This seems to be just another claim of convenience; along with that your people are really stubborn.

I've already had it like that. In any case this is how I protray my nation. Similarily, I can say most of your pollies are stuck-up arrogant fags. In any case, that kind of attitude would be common when one is about to be invaded.

Actually you have to portray your nation within limits. Calling your people extra stubborn (like you did BEFORE the war came to your soil); is just the same as calling your people extra strong.

Straight out of The Guide to Godmodding:
"Democracy: Military is volunteer based and populace grows disconcerted at huge numbers of military."

10 Million, by proportion, is not very large (10,000,000 / 3,805,000,000 = 0.26% of total pop) and is very small compared to other, democratic nations. Nevertheless, it's still truckload larger then the US Military and concequently, needs a bigger structure to keep it going.

Yes I know about the limits, and had you not attempted an invadion, that would have happened, even if not then and there. But since you have started one, people tend to get very stubbon. Look at Britain during WW2. It declared war against Germany, despite popular opinion not to. But they were quite stubbon whilst they were geing bombed.

Ten millions fine; no objection to ten million.

Surely you could not mean flak. It's a 88mm gun, and having it on the plane mean you will end up with weight problems.

If NC wants to play his people stubborn that is fine but remember what happened to a real world nation that did that Japan. Some of their best troops wasted themselves in early actions so later in the war the Japanese were forced to use second line and or poorly trained troops in battle.
As per the flak issue that size of Flak guns ranges from 37mm on up to 150mm depending on the nation. in WW2 both the US and Germany had 75 mm cannon mounted on aircraft so in a modern attack plane 88 mm would not be out of the question. But my question is why would you want to unless it was for ground attack.

Yes, it's Flak. But it's only 30mm's, and it fires about 200 rounds a minute. It's designed to shoot down enemy planes at short range partly, but is mainly designed as a countermeasure against missiles. One bomber can make a small cloud of shrapanel against incoming missiles, shooting them down. But when it's a formation of these bombers, the cloud is enormous.

Problem is, flak is just shards of shapnel really. A modern missile would have enough velocity to go right thought it. Also, the moment you give an object momentium, the shards start falling to the ground due to gravity.

Problem is, flak is just shards of shapnel really. A modern missile would have enough velocity to go right thought it. Also, the moment you give an object momentium, the shards start falling to the ground due to gravity.

The missile going into faster would actually increase the probability of penetration, because it increases the relative speed of the flak hitting the missile.

And obviously flak is subject to gravity.

But since flak particles themselves dont have much mass, there wont be enough force(F=MA) for the missile to explode against the flak. According to Newtons Third Law, objects will not move if there is two equal forces acting against each other. Since the missile would have more force (being faster and heavier then flak particles), it will go through the flak particles.

Its basic relativity. The missiles own force is used against it. If you drive into my car; even though my car isn't moving, your car will still get all bent up. Same principle here.

Thats because both cars are of similar mass. If I took a gun and fired it at paper, it would go though the paper.

I doubt paper could damage a bullet if the paper was travelling fast either. Flak is different; flak can cause missiles problems in a way paper can't.

Okay; you drive a truck at my car. Your truck is going to get bent as well.

Also don't forget that missiles, unlike trucks, cars, and bullets with non-explosive tips, are designed to explode on impact with an object.

I doubt paper could damage a bullet if the paper was travelling fast either. Flak is different; flak can cause missiles problems in a way paper can't.

Okay; you drive a truck at my car. Your truck is going to get bent as well.

The truck will continuously drag the car across the road until it either stops, or when the truck flips over due to a shift of central gravity (usually the former).

Also don't forget that missiles, unlike trucks, cars, and bullets with non-explosive tips, are designed to explode on impact with an object.

Mac, although that is the case, there still needs to be a big object, or an object that attracts radar signals to it before it explodes. Flak is neither of those.

The truck will continuously drag the car across the road until it either stops, or when the truck flips over due to a shift of central gravity (usually the former).
Are you trying to say your missile will either flip or come to a complete stop?
Didn't think so.

Do you claim the truck would come out of the encounter unscaved and is more heavily damaged than if it were going slow?
Do you accept that flak particles are relatively good counter to missiles; and have a better chance than the car against the truck?
Yes to both these questions; would suggest that a missile flying into a cloud of flak, would be bad news for a missile and cannot simply be shrugged off by going faster.

Mac, although that is the case, there still needs to be a big object, or an object that attracts radar signals to it before it explodes. Flak is neither of those.

Whether or not that is accurate depends entirely on the missile in question.

Exactly, and that shrapanel would be hitting at either faster speeds (incoming pieces), slower speeds (shrapanel flying away), and shrapanel from other angles if applicable. Keep in mind that the system creates a cloud of heavy metal flying shards in front of the missile's path. And cloud, I mean, bullets hitting the same relative area towards the missile two-three times a second. And as I said, many bombers are doing the same thing.

You can't just fly through it; it's like trying to drive a car going 1200km/h through a brick wall; you can't. The car may go through, but the car would be more than totaled, it would be decimated, or disintegrated. A good example of what I mean, go look up Jeff Krosnoff, Toronto on http://www.youtube.com. Just as a warning, not for the squeemish, but an example of when relatively soft metal impacts even a metal fence from a glancing angle at half the speed you're talking about.

P.S. Look for the 5:50 long version.