NationStates Jolt Archive

Well I feel left out, not only do you put me in the catergory of "the whole world" (who is against you) and you forgot to include or exclude me from your posts of nuclear annahilation. If that doesn;t send the wrong message I don;t know what does.
;)

OOC: Well, not every move, the bit about the Azores'll be fine.
[/childish]

Point taken. And yeah, I know. I don't especially need a lecture about what nukes do to planets, thanks. I honestly don't like the current dogpile very much either, but there's only so much I can do about it. You, me, Walmington, Spain and perhaps Quinntonia have a reason to be here (Quinntonia only because of vague alliances, I wouldn't bet on it). The rest... well, I think Walmington's been soliciting Germany for aid, but I dunno. We'll see how it works out.

Seriously, BG. We get that you think you were right. But the repeted statement 'I'm right, I can't be arsed to deal with you' isn't helping. To steal a page from the Jesse Jackson book of meaningless but rhymed oratory: what we need is not more confrontation, but more co-operation. The real trouble, I agree with NG on this, started because of the nukes and the VX nerve gas. If we have to go back and change that to make things work, so be it. If you're unwilling, I think Quinn and Royce want your blood.

China, what the heck, man? Carrier groups? Not that I'm not grateful for the help, but it seems a bit much. BG I kind of understand, he's supposed to be spreading the Communist Light and Truth and Love and the Way or whatever. But you're a democracy, and not the nutty Indian Soviet kind. We're the kinds of governments that are ideally slow to act and powerful in acting, like the USA used to be. It takes one helluva lot to convince 1 billion plus people that they need to fight a war, and you're a little quick to attack, I think.

NG, I realize, the whole world is against you. But... you haven't made yourself popular, exactly, or even tried to be discreet when wiping out population centres and things. Sure, China might not want to get involved in a 'real' situation, maybe it would. But ICBMing one major city, firebombing another and (possibly) trying to VX a third is going to piss people off. We know, from RL experience, that nations don't have to be directly threatened to go to war with someone. Take... Nazi Germany v. the USA (alliances, I know), or better yet: Kosovo. Iraq, both times. The second, without even a UN mandate. I don't want to argue politics, but it's pretty damn clear that Saddam never had weapons that could target the USA-- he'd need one hell of an ICBM for that, and the best that we've ever claimed he had were Scuds and knockoffs of the same.

Nations act because sometimes, other nations do things that they cannot countenance as permissable. When France goes and invades half of Africa, while assisting in the takeover of a country and the most important outpost of another, people are gonna notice.

I realize, I just sort of invalidated the first bit of my post. But... you can look at this a lot of ways. Way I see it? France dug its own grave, but people are being a bit hasty in filling it. Threats to nuke the planet into oblivion (and I honestly don't know if you can or can't, but RL France-- I don't think-- could even come close, anyway, those threats are a bit... nutty. Understandable in an imaginary world, but crazy if we pretend that the world is a real one.

I'm not going to make a judgement about it either way. Monarchies can be crazy sometimes. But I do find it unbecoming-- and I mean no disrespect-- I find it unbecoming of you that you threaten to end AMW because it's going rather horribly for you. After a certain point, we need to put realism aside in the interest of preserving the community that you people have spent years building.

I realize, I'm a neophyte preaching rather high-handedly to a number of people who have spent ages building up to an excellent RP. I realize that I just typed about 300 words that amount to little more than me mouthing off, and I might regret it after having... slept for a bit. I do already, a bit. And I realize that I sort of came in, sat about for a bit, and declared war after about three weeks of activity. Maybe not the best decision. But what's done is done. I hope that we can move on, seriously, because we've all put a fair bit into our countries and our characters. And at the risk of sounding horribly, horribly cliched, I think it's worth it.

China is not a true democracy. It is effectively ruled by a benevolent monarch with parliament in a largely advisor role, with media criticism of the monarch frowned upon. I will be doing some sort of post to fully explain China's political system shortly.

Now as for IC Chinese reasons for entering the war, they all derive from the same reasons why there is conflict in this world - money and power.

One must also remember that, until recently, there was no China... there was Xiaguo, Taiwan, and... well, and Sino. A state which pretty much indoctrinated its population to support a junta of army officers and a massive military machine.

Unity and the death of Liu have allowed more resonable minds to prevail, but some 600 million of China's billion were raised to be used to war.

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Erm, as to Spyr jumping on the war bandwagon... we've got aircraft wreckage and two ODSL agents locked in a prison camp to remind us just where relations between Sithin and Versailles stand... the Philippines were a reminder of the danger, as well as awakening the historical 'Asian bloc' which united to crush the threat of Bonstock. Its a historical trend that is rooted less in ideology and more in a reaction to cultural memory of the Age of Imperialism, which evolved during the course of AMW RP. I was honestly surprised at how activity in the Phillipines unfolded given this fact, particularly that China's position on the matter was sent into a u-turn in direct reaction to French actions.

A pull-out from the Philippines may have been intended as a mollifying action, but the forces pulled out were immediately employed in an attack on Africa, without an attempt to diffuse the anti-League sentiment that had been aroused in Asia. In choosing this course of action, they followed in the footsteps of Bonstock's attempt to impose a tariff on the Straits of Malacca. In that case, the FRB was well within its rights... Malacca was, after all, within its territorial waters, and the argument over it being an 'international passage' were weak... in the French case West Africa was distant from apparent Asian interests. But both served as the excuse for a harsh response.

That Spain chose this time to expand on the Iberian, bringing Walmington and Australasia into the looming war, merely gave Asian anti-League sentiment a few allies of convenience in-theatre... the road had been paved well before the fall of Gibraltar. Thus, I really can't feel too sorry for France, nor do I see current attitudes as somehow 'unfair'... if you don't want to face the whole world in a war, you ought at least put some effort into not pissing off the bits you'd rather not be fighting right now.

Of course, unless war breaks out with Russia, I doubt Strainist soldiers will ever meet those of the League on the field... even New Caledonia is outside the sphere within which Sithin is willing to operate. Too many things going on closer to home, too little reliable projective power.

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Hrm... on the nuclear issue, its a bit of a mess, isn't it? Perhaps due to lack of communication, more than anything.

France would have been aware of Libya's defensive strategy and armament... the country would hardly have concealed the fact that it posessed a nuclear defence given events in the region, and conventional defences would be obviously lacking due to the number of French aircraft involved. To avoid such defences France would have had to either reduce its aircraft numbers (at the price of increased vulnerability to conventional defences) or abandon the attack entirely. Of course, pushing ahead with the attack might also have been a strategy, aimed at neutering Libya's deterrent by threatening offensive use of French nuclear arms should they employ their Soviet nuclear SAMs... though openly stating such a policy would doubtless raise the ire of the USQ at a time when Quinntonia was still rather neutral.

I'm not exactly sure what is being suggested as a solution... can their be one, really?

Geh, when discussing the nuclear obliteration of an RP world for which I am quite fond, I'll tend to look to AMW's central root, so I'll just wait until Dra-pol/Walmington has weighed in on the matter.

Dra-pol/Walmington is bored of NationStates. He pretty well killed off Dra-pol as it was a long time ago, and Walmington has been dead for longer still: he was only RPing Britain because one was needed in AMW when TBF suddenly left, and certainly never intended to still be doing it however many months later. It's just more trouble than it's worth. For him, AMW served to resolve the original Korean wars and a few bits and pieces back then, and since the focus switched to Europe its just been a festival of Versailles melodrama.

Yeah, yeah, France loses because the US, India, and China are against it. My word, imagine an AMW nation being in that situation! I can't imagine, obviously. For my original AMW nation to be in that situation, there'd have to be Chinese troops storming the Yalu, Indians hold-up on the Naktong-gang, and US carrier battle groups on both coasts. It's funny, because that almost sounds familiar somehow, as if it might have happened and been fought-out. It almost seems as if that sort of thing could have lead to a nuclear misunderstanding without Dra-pol threatening to wipe-out the entire world.

But it probably didn't, I mean, that would be silly, obviously, because that couldn't happen without anyone deciding he'd lost some competition or other and whining about it. Obviously.

I could stay on and talk about what IC actions seem perfectly legitimate and what reactions less than conducive to on-going role-play, but then I'd just end up dragged into another argument over what was supposed to be a game.

I'd like to say something nice, but, in NS, I just feel tired, like an old man.

Unless I'm missing something, it seems like there's been an arbitrary decision to "end" AMW for... why, exactly? I rather enjoy RPing with everyone and would prefer not to see all our hard work reduced to radioactive craters, so to speak...

Royce, if France fires nukes and then Gurg Responds (plus Walmington) with nukes, il bet hell aim at Spain and Morocco, who have access to French nuclear ordanance but have chosen not to use it, atwhich point itl all rocket up the excalation ladder to a full nuclear exchange between every nuclear power on the planet, turning the planet into a molten radioactive mess

On nuclear stocks, Spain is a real life producer of enriched uranium. Given, it's last on the list on the amount if produces, but it's still a producer. Of course, Spain doesn't have any nuclear weapons in real life. On AMW prior to the Russian closing of arms deals with the Holy League Spain had stockpiled anywhere from 100 to 200 AS-15 Kent intercontinental cruise missiles , of course, all without nuclear warheads. They were meant as conventional long range missiles to flatten parts of London, but were never used to avoid retribution in Madrid. However, now with the threat of nuclear war their 410kg high explosive warhead have been replaced by 200Kt fission warheads. Of course, that's nothing compared to the rest of the world, but it should be taken into consideration that every single warhead is prepared to be fired at the United Kingdom - they are considered the weakest, the closest, and the more deserving. This, of course, if nuclear war breaks out. Phillip VI has no reason to begin a nuclear war, nor would he start one if he loses the war. However, Spain is not going to sit tight while the allies turn it into a nuclear wasteland for no reason [well, for France throwing nukes around, of course].

Spain does, however, have large amounts of tactical nuclear warheads - most of them from French origin. These include nuclear tipped Aster 15s and Aster 30s, although more of the latter. The reason is to take out large formations of aircraft, normally bombers and aircraft of heavy destruction, [i]enmasse. These are dwarfs in comparison of what we have in conventional long range and medium range surface to air missile, but enough to leave invaders without aircraft. Spain also has indegenous stocks of tactical nuclear artillery shells, although these are only designed to be used against breakthroughs it can't patch up - in order to avoid the exploitation of the gap. These are available in large numbers and have been sold to Morocco in large numbers, as well. We have tactical surface to surface nuclear warheads that vary between 10t to 200t, and have area effects of less than a quarter of a mile - they are long range Davy Crockett type missiles [long range, I mean less than 100kms].

Spain has 'reversed engineered' the AS-15 Kent and all production variations in Spain, named TR.95s, are equivalent and superior to the AS-19 Koala, which never saw production. Ranges exceed 4,000kms, and can reach beyond 6,000kms. However, truth be told, most of these are conventional, fitted with radar seekers, terminal guidance, anti-shipping capabilities, et cetera. These are produced in small numbers, given the fact that Spanish industry is already at its limits, but around 3,000 are produced per month at maximum effeciency - so expect around 2,300. They, however, can be fitted with 400Kt fission warheads.

I can't remember anything else, but I think that's it. I probably have other tactical weapons that I can't remember of now, but I'll let you guys know.

Heh... I suppose we ought not forget the opinion of the Groznys, then. If the Ukrainians are on side with French nuclear attacks, escalation is bound to occur. If not, one can imagine Louis lying just short of the big red button, a battle-axe stuck in his spine, with Jillesepone whistling innocently in the background ^_^.

Alright, guys. This is getting absurd. Let's all relax for a moment, take a deep breath, and approach this rationally.

I love AMW; it's improved my writing style, allowed me to make friendships, and provided a fascinating experience. I sure as hell am not letting anyone, even my good friend Jean, ruin it. So let's take a step back and work this out.

The VX attack should be kept; it was interesting, villanious, and devastating. The only quibble I have there is that it should be reworked, with NG putting more preperatory effort so that he doesn't go blindly into AA defenses and so it doesn't fail so spectacularly. For sheer dramatic effect, as horrible as this seems, we should have more Libyans getting slaughtered.

The nuke attack was absolutely justified. Sorry NG, but it was a tactical nuclear weapon, used on Libyan soil, against solely military targets. You're overreacting, and it does not justify the use of strategic nuclear weapons in any way, shape, or form. Listen to me my friend; I have nothing but the utmost respect for you, but you're taking this too far. Don't destroy AMW, especially since, as I'll explain in a bit, you have a lot to gain.

The nuclear attack was justified, but the Quinntonians are right to get worried about this escalation. Things are getting out of hand, and I commend Quinnt for bringing on the holy smack down. The French are complaining about dogpiling, but this is perhaps the opportunity of a lifetime for them, to be honest. Jean, Mac, you get to keep Africa. Who cares if Portugal and Gibraltar are handed over? They're slim pickings compared to the riches and populace of West Africa, and the might of Quinntonian muscle.

So here is the Armand Peace Plan for AMW. *Drum rolls please*

-I think the main complaint of the Spanish is that they are being slapped in the face with an ultimatum rather than being treated like equals. Invite them for negotiations, treat them with respect, let them save face by giving them commonwealth status with the Portugese and a joint-sovereignty over Gibraltar (Which would let the British maintain control but give the Spanish greater civilian access to the Rock, perhaps promote a few Spanish-British cultural events)

-All currently conquered West African territories will remain in the hands of those who conquered them

-Libya will get the sliver of Algeria it wants, thus letting it keep face

-The Colonel is removed from power, allowing Libya to become a democracy under Bedgellen sway

-Both the Colonel and Normandy are presented as scapegoats for the WMD escalation, and tried in international criminal courts

-Western Sahara is recognized as in independent nation, while Spain and Morocco are given free reign to do what they will with Mauretania

-Australasia will receive New Caledonia

-France will drop all recognition of Rajahastan

-Both France and Libya will have all weapons of mass destruction removed from their arsenals, beyond a limited defensive capability

-The Holy League will pay reperations to Australasia and Walmington

-Any nation that violates this treaty will immediately have war declared upon it by those who are signatories

-Once these conditions are agreed upon, all hostilities between the Holy League and Australasia, Walmington, Beth Gellert, Libya, China, and the INU will cease.

-Finally, a United Nations will be established to maintain this treaty and to preserve a future peace

Spain is ready to give the rock back without requiring 'joint sovereignty'; the capture of the Gibraltar was to allow Spain a bidding chip in future peace negotiations. Furthermore, currently Spain doesn't have any parts of Africa, and it doesn't even want Mauretania - although if there's no other choice I will have to take it. The original plan was to invite you, LRR, BG, NG and Morocco to a Tangiers Conference and discuss the future of Mauretania - a nation that Spain has every interest in keeping it stable. This would include an international force to oversee elections, but it would guarantee the opening of Mauretania to the growth of infrastructure that would best serve Spanish business in the country. Spain really has no interest in fully annexing countries outside the Iberian Peninsula - at least, for now - as opposed to increasing the Spanish sphere of economic influence.


Western Sahara is recognized as in independent nation, while Spain and Morocco are given free reign to do what they will with Mauretania


Spain would be willing to discuss this at Tangiers, as well, but is not so open to the idea. It would require discussion business possibilities and socialist influences so close to Spain.


Both France and Libya will have all weapons of mass destruction removed from their arsenals, beyond a limited defensive capability


Sound idea, unfortunately implausible. France would never agree. The United Kingdom, Australasia and the United States all have nuclear arsenals, and you are denying France the right to protect itself from them.


-I think the main complaint of the Spanish is that they are being slapped in the face with an ultimatum rather than being treated like equals.


You hit the nail right on the head.

Well good Armadian and Spyr got involved. Get some cool heads around us. I like the piece accords, Austria doesn't lose anything and everyone gets to keep their bit.

As for Trieste I think we concluded it was a quasi-automonous state in the Austrian Federal system with a healthy dose militerism as I consalidated Trieste's civilian and military command roles into one; heavy on the military command.

None of these people mentioned have used WMD in recent history, however. France has shown a predilection towards using them extensively.

All interesting points, Mac, Armand. Really, I'm amenable to all that, with a few exceptions.

- Australasia doesn't really have a nuclear stockpile, it has a nuclear weapon. But... moving on.

- We would like to see a reduction in France's WMD capacity, since he seems like he's willing to use it on people. Not total, but... significant. The exact numbers can be worked out later.

- And as far as Africa is concerned, I don't know how I feel about that. I mean, All of W. Africa is a lot to ask, and I still believe that if the coalition countries got our shit together, we'd be able to beat France there, and make a dent in Europe as well.

ICly, Australasia would be opposed to an expanded French presence in Africa, but not so opposed as to a Soviet one. Later discussion seems called for.

The ultimatums are, at least for me, a response to having been hit with an ICBM about three days ago, meaning that my government is pissed. A lot. Accordingly, it might take a while for Raleigh to come around to the idea of peace at all, but we'll be willing to talk eventually. In AMW time, remember, the attack on Buenos Aires was maybe a week ago, not much longer. The Aussies want their square foot of French hide, still.

ICly, Australasia would be opposed to an expanded French presence in Africa, but not so opposed as to a Soviet one. Later discussion seems called for.

While Austria has the same view just vice-versa. Same difference really.

Actually, if Soviets were given a good hand to run around Africa I fear that would just send the Austrians scrambling around like chickens. Silver is still mainly mined in Africa and we arn't issuing any more Marks than can be backed up but still want to issue some more as the Austrian economy progresses. Back on subject, Soviet control on the mines and general economics of Africa would just send Austria right in. Probably from Cameroon or Mauritania. Then it would procced to get more and more messy. So I would like to see France hold on to a good chunk.

.

The VX attack should be kept; it was interesting, villanious, and devastating. The only quibble I have there is that it should be reworked, with NG putting more preperatory effort so that he doesn't go blindly into AA defenses and so it doesn't fail so spectacularly. For sheer dramatic effect, as horrible as this seems, we should have more Libyans getting slaughtered.

The nuke attack was absolutely justified. Sorry NG, but it was a tactical nuclear weapon, used on Libyan soil, against solely military targets. You're overreacting, and it does not justify the use of strategic nuclear weapons in any way, shape, or form. Listen to me my friend; I have nothing but the utmost respect for you, but you're taking this too far. Don't destroy AMW, especially since, as I'll explain in a bit, you have a lot to gain.

-All currently conquered West African territories will remain in the hands of those who conquered them

-Western Sahara is recognized as in independent nation, while Spain and Morocco are given free reign to do what they will with Mauretania

-The Holy League will pay reperations to Australasia and Walmington


Whether the use of nuclear weapons is justified is dependant on what doctrine you are using, that point is too open to individual interpretaion, ofcourse Louis Auguste might have a nervous breakdown that makes him push the button.

The point about the currently conquered territories and Western Saharan regonition are not complimentary, are you requiring me to recognise that the true government of all of western sahara is the SADR? Because that would force me to give up currently conquered territory amounting to nearly half my countries area and a great deal of stationary military hardware

Morocco isn't in the Holy League. Hence that clause does not apply to it. And the SADR doesn't necessarily have to claim all of Western Sahara, just enough so that the Sahawari can have their own country.

theyve in effect had a country for thirty years, with the tiny slither of land they have IRL now, which means i need not surrender any of my territories to ensure the viability of their nation, especially if we were to open the berm to trade. Although i would need to have certain concessions from the SADR that they wont launch an attack upon me without a direct provocation from the Moroccan Nation (ie a no first-strike clause)

Well, there actually isn't all that much for the Saharawi in their inland portion of Western Sahara. Negligible arable land and water sources come to mind first. Even Tindouf was short on those, and that was when the Saharawi weren't being obliged to run for their lives across the desert.

Methinks the Polisario Front would be less than happy about such a proposal, given that it legitimizes Moroccan authority over territory that is, after all, rightfully Saharawi. But Spyr will tell us for sure.

The Combine will back any position the Sahawari take.

LRR, how about responding to the Niger or the Bihar issue?

The Saharawi won't settle for the present division of territory, that's for certain... the current situation has left the Moroccans holding everything useful and the SADR sitting on all the crap no one really wanted anyway.

Even with a more equitable division, internal difficulties plague the SADR. Its current leader, Muhammed Abdelaziz, has advocated for the past few decades that the best course was cease fire and negotiation. In that time, things have gone from bad to worse, and he's lost a lot of credibility amongst the more militant elements, who have found support in a generally restless populace. Abdelazis might SIGN an agreement, but both Combine and Hindustani advisors in the region would know that it was being done in bad faith... his ability to enforce it upon the rest of the Frente Polisario, let alone the more nomadic groups amongst the Saharawi, is limited at best.

But, this may all be moot... I'll get a reply up as soon as I can to Spanish-Moroccan assaults, RL has been distracting me from giving proper attention to my poor desert nomads, but I've gotten the impression that the invaders plan to take a more direct approach to elimination of the Saharawi problem. Once the smoke has cleared there may not be any Saharawi left to claim the country at all.

On another note, roughly how do present events relate time-wise to the 'Glorious 12th of June'? I got the impression that it had been about a week between the battle and the nuclear detonations over Libya (so, June 19th/20th?). Since we've got at least one fixed date, others can be found... on roughly what date did the war break out on the Iberian? What day is it currently in the battle over West Africa? What day did the Spanish and Moroccans launch their assault against the SADR?

Its all so bloody (and wonderfully) interconnected that I'd like to get my timelines straight before I start reacting to things that haven't happened yet ^_^.

I don't really care about all these proposed resolutions to the war, and I don't know why we're discussing them OOC. I don't know what's happened to AMW, but everyone seems to be wandering away from it.

So far as I can see, the main problem is that NG is taking issue with the idea that he might not easily conquer half the world.

As recently indicated, Dra-pol fought most of the enemies France now has, and 1) survived, 2) was fine with RPing national disaster.

But, apparently, if France can't win in one fell swoop, that means it's the end of the world?

The attack on Tripoli was cheap, stupid, and badly defeated. But why does that mean we should erase it and...

Oh, god, I still can't be arsed, it's so damn stupid and requires so much OOC waffle. It's going to come to a ridiculous conclusion... sigh.


All right, I've been trying to think about this while away from the computer and not near any material that may cause me to lose the will to live (stupidly, I ended up thinking about it while reading the Sunday papers, but, fortunately, the face that we're stunned by the fact that it's all going to hell in Afghanistan was more amusing than anything, having gone past the obvious into the ridiculous).

From NG's point of view, he's just fought a major battle or two, and now there's more players forcing major battles to come: he's got to fight the Soviets and their allies, and he's going to have to fight the western 'democracies' again after failing to vanquish them in round one, and one can well see that this may start to look as much like a repetative chore as a bit of entertainment, to him.

That's fair enough, it's only a game.

But we can't -IC- settle things because one side is sick of fighting, unless by that side's capitulation, which the League is not prepared to give, because, in spite of all the fighting that has been, they're not actually beaten as yet... hence the need for more fighting to come. But we can't do that without compelling NG et cetera to RP battles until they're dreaming about it and threatening to send their loved ones to the Saharan front for putting sugar in their coffee. But then we're back to the facts that they're not going to capitulate without those battles, and that their enemies have absolutely no reason for not forcing them to fight.

The ultimatums are, at least for me, a response to having been hit with an ICBM about three days ago, meaning that my government is pissed.

Then your ultimatum should be towards France, not towards Spain.

On another note, roughly how do present events relate time-wise to the 'Glorious 12th of June'? I got the impression that it had been about a week between the battle and the nuclear detonations over Libya (so, June 19th/20th?). Since we've got at least one fixed date, others can be found... on roughly what date did the war break out on the Iberian? What day is it currently in the battle over West Africa? What day did the Spanish and Moroccans launch their assault against the SADR?


The way I have kept track of it is like this. The war on the Iberian broke out Day X, and the war ended with the collapse of mainland Portugal 4 to 5 days later. The French fleet did not arrive to Cadiz until perhaps a week and a half after the beginning of the war and then the Spanish and French fleets would have arrived in the mid-Atlantic perhaps four weeks after the first assaults in the Iberian, given the fact that the fleets were in Cadiz for a while - meaning, a total time lapse of a month. The Spanish assault on the Saharawi would have begun in the middle of the naval battle.

I thought I should mention right now, befoire Mac goes off on any more tangents about how many nukes he has, that Russia has never, ever, ever, sold him any nuclear weapons. Nor have any of the former Soviet republics or Tsarist regimes at any time.

That kind of imformation would not have been shared that easily with Putin, my Russian predecessor, and Wingert is damn near xenophobic about letting even people who might have the knowledge to build one out of his sight.

So, though France may have supplied, I would very much like me taken out of the equasion in calculating how many or the power of Spain's nuclear arsenal.

But, if it comes to France, I would have at the very least let him use our technology to build their own, though they had nukes before we were allies.

Tsar Wingert the Great.

Estenlands, you haven't sold me any AS-15 Kents, but prior to you, Armandian Cheese has. So, those 150, or so, AS-15 Kents are in the Spanish arsenal whether you like it or not. And the description of my arsenal is not going off on a tangent, since prevvy to the current discussion there was a discussion on nuclear war - although we are trying to steer clear of that. However, my description is actually very relevant. I'd like it that you begin to speak to me without the anger that you may have because neither Spain, nor Morocco, really want Russian influence in it - apart from its money and its armament; and please, don't undermine my arguments with slippery slope arguments and straw man fallacies.

Thank you.

Yeah, I sold Mac the delivery technology as Putin. Putin would never sell the actual nuclear weapons, but the AS-15 Kents were considered to be a good financial deal and a way to build stronger ties with the League in preperation for the Baltic invasion. Back in the day, Putin was actually conducting extensive business and manufacturing deals with Spain.

By the way, both of you need to tone down the personal sniping. I'm getting the major feeling that neither Mac nor Wingert like each other very much, but you should try to keep personal feelings out of RP. Trust me, it's showing.

I actually have no problems with Estenlands; I just don't like to see what I say insulted. But regardless, yes, the AS-15 Kents were originally sold as conventional missiles. Spain made the fissionable warhead themselves.

BG, I agreed with you, alright? So relax a little. I think one thing that's bogging this whole affair down is the overheated emotions of both you and NG. If you'd actually consider things rationally instead of putting in snide comments about how absurd you think the other side is acting, we'd make some progress here. Both NG's melodrama and your sniping are unnecessary, here, alright?

Now the reason the proposal is there is not because NG's tired of fighting; it's because Quinntonia stepped in after the WMD attack. Quinntonia, Roycelandia, Japan, and secretly the Combine, all are scared shitless now, and want to put a clamp on this thing as soon as possible. Things have escalated too far, hence the peace deal.

Changing the results of France's attack is simply a cosmetic proposal of mine; it's not necessary, but it's sort of anti-climactic to have France's huge bomber fleet go down senselessly.

Mac; you'll note that all of my ultimatumatory (just pretend it's a word) statements were directed at NG, and I was just backing Walmington, as allies tend to do. I'm perfectly amenable to peace talks, but they need to start somewhere. I figured that mentioning the ideal conditions for peace would lead to a discussion, just not this kind.

From Mac's timeline, I've come up with hostilities beginning on April 27th, or thereabouts. I'm okay with that being the official date if y'all are. Speaking of which, is anybody planning on making an NSWiki entry for the war, or an AMW History in general? I can imagine that new players would find it really helpful, and I'm willing to either take that on or help whoever is.


he was only RPing Britain because one was needed in AMW when TBF suddenly left, and certainly never intended to still be doing it however many months later.

I might have a solution for you, after the current round of combat is over. Namely, that I'd take on Britain as well, and RP a re-unification with Australasia. But, I don't know how you, or for that matter everyone else, feel about that.

I might have a solution for you, after the current round of combat is over. Namely, that I'd take on Britain as well, and RP a re-unification with Australasia. But, I don't know how you, or for that matter everyone else, feel about that.

Well I feel that Austria needs to become a dual monarchy again! Yah, have the Austria-Britain Dual Monarchy. Has a nice ring to it doesn't it? ;)

Nothing much to add, I wonder how we are going to continue without any big wars happening; once al of this stops and peace is declared it is going to make everything seems so much more... slow. Oh well, there is always Yugoslavia to have anothr fun brisk war with and Mauritania still could host some fun battles.....

Cheers!

I might have a solution for you, after the current round of combat is over. Namely, that I'd take on Britain as well, and RP a re-unification with Australasia. But, I don't know how you, or for that matter everyone else, feel about that.

Perhaps you could tell us a bit more about what you had in mind?

Well, it works for me. After all, New Zealand (The Wendsleybury Islands) is still under British authority (with a Governor instead of a PM), and reference is still made in present tense to The British (/Walmingtonian) Empire, which has just over sixty-eight million subjects. And Mainwaring has used the army to shut-down political opposition, and is treating the re-activated Home Guard (with several million recruits weilding SLRs and rechambered SMLEs) as something of a political/patriotic militia.

I don't know how that helps or hinders, but it seems like it ought somehow to do the former.

Well, this was mainly sparked by realizing that we're going to need an England, as well as my British-Empire-philia, so:

At first, nothing major would change. England would probably take a backseat in world affairs for a while, since Australasia is the more actively expansionist of the two. After a while, one or the other would propose re-unification. There would be a vote on it in Australasia (the country that would lose countryhood, since England is the older nation, but maybe they'd have a vote as well) and, obviously, said vote would pass. The Australasian legislature would continue to operate much like RL Scotland's.

'course, I'm just as happy staying Australasia. I've kind of developed an affection for what I originally saw as 'the next best thing' after I discovered that England was taken. That, and I'd also have to learn a bunch of history/deal with a whole nation of people less inclined to the quiet plan of world domination that most Australasians secretly think is the best idea ever.

"That, and I'd also have to learn a bunch of history/deal with a whole nation of people less inclined to the quiet plan of world domination that most Australasians secretly think is the best idea ever."

Eh, yes! *rolls-up map of Malaya and makes no mention of where the battleship Courageous was headed before she left Diego Garcia to join the Aussie fleet to Cyprus*

And there's only 509 years or so of altered history to learn, wuss :) Actually, you could ignore most of it, since I have only been using it to make me feel a little more enthusiastic about playing the country that I'm bored living in.

If you're ever into something different, Walmington, I assure you that Pakistan is just itching to secede...

Anyway...do we OCCly plan to invade the HL, even? This isn't supposed to be a personal thing, just a reasonable reaction to France's and Spain's invasion of several countries, and nothing to be bent out of shape about. Walmington has, after all, offered some pretty leniant terms, and I think it might be a bit counterproductive for NG and Mac to be threatening us when they flatly refuse compromise that doesn't enable them to keep all conquests.

AMW is supposed to be in good fun, right? And if you get invaded, that's what happens, right? This whole affair, it seems, is borne out of us taking things far too personally. Like Walmington said, Dra-pol had a major fight with at least as many enemies as the Holy League, and we had a great time with it, gas attacks and all. And he survived through it! So I would advise Mac and NG to look on the bright side, and realise that, for starters, their home nations are probably not under threat, and secondly, that even if they are invaded, that is far from the end of the world. Nuclear oblivion is something that AMW certainly does not need, and it is unquestionably unreasonable for any player to threaten it with such in the absence of a first strike against one's home territory.

Somehow, I think that our point has been made.

From an OOC perspective, I have to agree with the points raised here. It seems several AMWers are getting quite emotive.

It would be pretty silly to change the past again. I would love to see the Quintonnian expedition go ahead. It seems a lot about how it will work out is presumed, but OOCly I have doubts about whether NATO can succeed.

AMW seems to be evolving towards the worst post cold-war scenario imagined - the possession of nuclear weapons by small and unstable states. However, I think this is a good thing. It is workable, realistic, challenging and will make for some very nice RP.

Ok, I've been trying to assemble a bit of a timeline, if only to clear everything up in my own head...

----

April 27th: -Spanish forces launch assaults on Gibraltar and Portugal, backed by French air power.
-Gibraltar falls to Spanish occupation.
-French forces in Nigeria attack Cote D’Ivoire and Benin.

April 28th: -French Algeria invades Mali.
-Chinese carrier group sets out for Panama.

April 29th: -Yugoslavia invades Austria.

May 1st: -May Day.
-Mainland Portugal capitulates to Spain.

June 12th: -Beginning of naval battle in the Atlantic, between Franco-Spanish and Anglo-Australasian fleets.
-Moroccan and Spanish forces launch an assault on the Saharawi Arab Democratic Republic.

June 13th: -End of naval battle in the Atlantic, between Franco-Spanish and Anglo-Australasian fleets. (or did it go on for more than two days?)

---

There are, however, some unclear events...

? - Quinntonian-brokered peace between Austria and Yugoslavia. Austria drops out of the Holy League. (The war itself seemed short... a week or so?)

? - Abortive Moroccan attack launched against the SADR (given IC reaction, it seems best to assume this occurred in late April (the 30th?), though in posting it occured just after the first ‘June 12th’ post).

? - Libya and allied Indian forces launch a raid against French Algeria. France retaliates with a mass bombing raid on Tripoli, which is all-but-destroyed by Soviet nuclear SAMs. (This looks to have occurred around the 12th of June, giving time for Indian/UAR forces to build up in Libya, and for Algerian forces to penetrate deep enough into ECOWAS that they couldn’t easily turn and join the defence... OOC it seems best set in mid-June to explain why the Quinntonian fleet in the Atlantic didn’t join in the Glorious 12th battle).

? - Various events in the West African war (a lot has happened in West Africa... but how much time has passed? To me, it looks as if matters have at the very least caught up to mid-June, if they haven’t already surpassed it)

? - Indian fleet departs for West Africa (this happened relatively early, didn’t it?)

? -Soviet troops land in Namibia, pushing for a leftist government there. (This is after they moved into Bihar, an operation which probably ought also be given a date.)

Walmington has, after all, offered some pretty leniant terms, and I think it might be a bit counterproductive for NG and Mac to be threatening us when they flatly refuse compromise that doesn't enable them to keep all conquests.

Again, Spain never refused to compromise. We accept a compromise - the terms set down by Walmington did not offer a compromise. It simply told Spain to get out of Africa, Portugal and the Gibraltar. Do you expect Spain to simply say 'yes'? But I don't even think we're talking about this anymore! :D I guess we'll carry on with any peace ICly.

AMW is supposed to be in good fun, right?

Defending your nation against invasion can be fun, too! I never planned to use nuclear weapons in defense, except perhaps tactical nuclear weapons on a limited scale. I just plan to use them if Frances uses them - I have little choice.

So, if France says that it was just conventional payloads, Quinntonia will want nothing to do still with war with the HL. But that doesn’t quite solve the problem of the Soviets, as BG has stated again and again, that even if that were the case, they would still use nukes, and might even be planning on using them if I invade using no WMDs at all. And, if they nuke me first, they see that as justified, but will ignore any incoming nuclear retaliation. (He’s right, can’t be arsed to explain why. Hmm?)

So, Quinntonian policy in this matter is totally reactive, you use WMDs, and I react, strongly. If you use nukes, I will invade, if you nuke me, I nuke you. This policy is built around the IC history of Quinntonia since Dra-pol and I got this ball of wax rolling, but also am designed around an OOC reason, to not let AMW die in a horrible burst of flame. So, whenever a conflict gets out of hand with peoples emotions getting involved and talks of nuclear annihilation, I step in, always have, and always will. The best way to keep me out of your wars is to not use these weapons, that simple.

So, rewrite history? I don’t know. I also don’t know why the HL is all of the sudden getting upset when they realize that everything isn’t going the way that they planned. I mean, my favorite RPs were always ACs, mainly because he was completely willing to drive his nation into the ground for the sake of the almighty RP.

I don’t know, sometimes I would think it would be better to just ignore nuclear weapons completely in this world, and solve the problem that way, because they seem to stop RP, not help it. Kind of like, I have this cool idea for an invasion, BOOM! No you don’t. I mean, it is cool as a means of MAD, but when people actually start lobbing them instead of just talking about them, everyone gets mad and this happens.

Aaargh, I wish people would just grow up and play things out, rather than do the AMW version of knocking the Monopoly Board over by lobbing nukes.

WWJD
Amen.

Defending your nation against invasion can be fun, too! I never planned to use nuclear weapons in defense, except perhaps tactical nuclear weapons on a limited scale. I just plan to use them if Frances uses them - I have little choice.

Well, exactly, Mac. I don't dispute your right to defend Spain and inflict upon us the greatest number of casualties...look at Dra-pol and Bonstock, if you doubt that we can accept them. And I for one don't doubt your ability to cause them. But that isn't the issue. The issue is that NG has threatened nuclear strikes against pretty much everybody else, since BG took out his bombers with nuclear-armed SAMs. Unless NG says he will limit his retaliation or not retaliate in nuclear terms at all, I don't see a way out of our present situation besides getting the world blasted-up. You know?

Perhaps we could allow NG to redo the strike? He would have known about Libya's nuclear defense, I'd imagine, since Gaddafi must have announced it for deterrence's sake. It seems like it was a bit hastily played, with no SEAD strike or anything, and it will be hard to justify

I have no qualms with Quinntonia and BG going at it. Such an encounter has been very long in coming. It is just the question as to whether that engagement takes place with a nuclear winter as background.

Eh, I don't know if that makes any sense...

What if NG simply eliminated the city through extensive and consistant bombings? A conventional way of doing the damage a nuclear bomb would! That way France can get its retaliation, and nuclear war doesn't start. :P

I have no qualms with Quinntonia and BG going at it. Such an encounter has been very long in coming. It is just the question as to whether that engagement takes place with a nuclear winter as background.

Eh, I don't know if that makes any sense...

*Combine whistles innocently*

Mac: I'd actually be okay with that. I can park my carriers in the Med and have a field day!

Also, responding to you from the IC thread:

I've got a ruler and an atlas, coupled with Wikipedia. That's my Encarta. Sorry bout the computer, though. I'm checking the ranges now, using some slightly more reliable sources than Wiki. Not finding anything, so I'm going to go with the 1390 km range. Checking, Madeira Island is at the extreme outside range there, but since they can land right away, it oughtn't be a problem. They'll have to land before engaging, though. My statement about them 'not being able to reach the Azores, much less defend Madeira Island' reflected that I wouldn't have them dogfighting much by the time they arrived. Getting there, they'll be fine. To make an effective pincer, once again, they'll need to refuel. Otherwise, solid plan, it seems.

Lastly, apart from the fighters and SAM batteries, what kind of defences (against amphibious landings) does Madeira have, and how many troops are there?

EDIT: Walmington, check TGs.

Well, Tripoli's defences would still have used the two nuclear-tipped SAMs, hasn't that been made abundantly clear? It was a strategic assault on a civilian target, it was a cheap shot, and the Soviets and Libyans firmly put a stop to it. As a group of Soviet Auxiliaries asked a Quinntonian missionary who'd been shooting his mouth off about it, would you like to be poisoned to death, or merely burned alive?

The Soviets are now moving CS-400 Red Sky SAM/ABM defences into Libya so that saturation attack can be resisted conventionally, but this means thinning India's defences and it is something that Libya can not afford, hence the need for Soviet (Union) doctrine re. nuclear-tipped SAMs. As the (Indian) Soviets and Tripoli have now suggested, anyone who has a problem with Libya's method of self defence should pay for the alternative that it can not afford alone, or, in time, the Red Sky will be returned to India and Libya stuck with its nuclear defence.

Some hot-headed French blue-blood with too much power over-reacted and launched a poorly organised attack on Libya, its scale and scope meant that the nuclear defence was the only option, the attack's over, and the Soviets are going to great expense to bolster Libya's defences. The idea of Franch launching nuclear attacks is absurd. The defence was justified because France used a totally out dated strategy as if this were some time in which cities can not defend themselves. It's totally different to a nuclear attack, and it's totally different to nuking an enemy army or other force not bent on genocide.

This is all so ridiculous that I'm going to suggest a vote in the Soviet Commune banning use of WMDs, a decree by the Quinntonian Church doing the same, and the coincidental sabotage by the resistance that must be huge in France (given that the state keeps randomly kicking off on Protestants and others, and killing people's friends and families, not to mention having ruined countless livelihoods) of any attempted WMD deployment by that country, and so on and so forth, until WMDs are de facto removed from AMW without having to ban them OOC without any explanation IC. I'm surprised that people are so incapable of working with the device, but here we have it, so some such resolution appears necessary.

As an aside, I've always wondered about Eurofighter. France dropped out early on and developed Rafale... Italy joined the HL dead early on, and clearly could no longer work with Britain and Germany, so must have dropped out, possibly going for Rafale with France... the Catholic Kingdom of Spain was long suspected and soon enough joined the League, and did they really choose to stick with Eurofighter, and were they really allowed to do so by Britain and Germany? I know the issue's come up before, over how many Eurofighters there are, but I can't get my head around anyone but Britain and Germany continuing to work on it, unless Italy and Spain thought they could afford to take-up the majority shares handled by those nations, and had the technical means to go ahead, when Rafale was just sitting there, costing less and being handled by France. Maybe it's just me, but I can't help frowning when I see Eurofighter outside Anglo-German control.

Beddgelert, I used everything that Spain currently has, including the Leopard 2E [2A6], G36E, et cetera. Regardless, AMW Germany is actually supplying Spain and Morocco with ordnance at this point - I don't know why everyone considers Germany an ally to the British and Australasians, when they're not. They are at best neutral. But irregardless, otherwise I would have had to spent a lot more time figuring out what was in Spain's military at the time, so I just chose to start out with Spain's real life military more or less, with a few exaggerations and quick build-up from there on. IIRC, Morocco is using German Meteor air to air missiles, and I'm probably going to start using them as well once Germany gives me the ability to produce them at home and import them simultanuously.

Gurguvungunit, on a curved trajectory I got ~600mi from Lisbon to Madeira, or 965km. My aircraft coming from the north, as said before, the aircraft would not engage over Madeira. The idea would be to catch you halfway there, which is why the Aster 30 launch was pointless, other than to confuse you while my aircraft closed range [from the front]. I don't know the range of the Aster 30, but I doubt it's 400kms. :P But I guess that yes, they would be rather low on fuel, however, I have airfields that are closer, such as Cadiz, Algeciras, Sevilla, Tangiers, et cetera, and those; for example, Casablanca is about 400mi from Madeira, and about 250mi from where we're engaging from, so I could easily engage and then refuel in airports outside of Casablanca, for example.

Oh, and I didn't exactly get your aircraft composition. I understood two types, which I have no clue what they are, and then Vulcans. What aircrafts do you currently have in the raid?

Germany's supplying who with what?! Well that's going to cost them!

There's no way that any shared/joint British and German technology is going anywhere near Morocco or any HL nation without the severing of diplomatic contact between Berlin and London, and the naval blockade of the NorthSea-Skagerrak sealanes against all German shipping... which would indicate quite a turn around from informal talk of alliance, embraced enthusiastically by the German government.

This probably needs sorting out. Where've those darn Germans gone, anyway?

Well, irregardless, the Eurofighter was finished before the coup in Madrid by Phillip VI and his generals, and so the Eurofighter is decisively Spanish. The Meteor ... well ... I don't know how that went; I don't know if France is included in that anymore. And ... well ... the Germans supposedly have a large fleet in this AMW. How large, I'm not exactly sure, but coupled with the French fleet you may have a run for your money in the North Sea, so I wouldn't put it down as a threat just yet OOCly. :)

Germany's supplying who with what?! Well that's going to cost them!

There's no way that any shared/joint British and German technology is going anywhere near Morocco or any HL nation without the severing of diplomatic contact between Berlin and London, and the naval blockade of the NorthSea-Skagerrak sealanes against all German shipping... which would indicate quite a turn around from informal talk of alliance, embraced enthusiastically by the German government.

This probably needs sorting out. Where've those darn Germans gone, anyway?

Uh, well then sever diplomatic contact because he is

Bah, the Germans can't tell boats from boots! :)

If this turns out as badly as it might, at least we can stop the struggle to keep our older admirals and captains up to date on whether or not we're firing on whichever continental fleet we happen to have sighted. Fighting with the French in the last two wars confused enough of them, and more recently being told not to fire on the Germans was probably enough to tip a few members of the old guard over the edge, hehe. Hell, maybe that's why we had a sort-of coup.

But, ah, I don't know. Britain elected the BID government about at the end of the '80s, not many years after the BAe EAP appeared, and they served two terms in opposition to the rising Holy League. I'd say that Bull would have been very warey of Spain, wouldn't you agree? And Spain only had a 13% project share to begin with, and it hardly seems worth keeping them on as a partner at that level next to Britain and Germany with more than three times as much each. Ick, maybe those dastardly Germans pushed us to keep Spain involved, I just hate seeing something virtually the same as our Typhoon -the Spitfire of the day- in enemy inventories, too, when they've already got their 109 in the Rafale. Oh well, I don't know if there's much that can be done about it, unless Spain volunteers itself out of the Eurofighter legacy in favour of Rafale or something.

It was all going to be so much easier when I was New Zealand alone! Strap an Aden cannon on to a turbojet and call it a fighter. If only.

Well, remember that Phillip VI did not come to power until very recently, and by the time the Eurofighter project was just beginning Spain had just ended her second dictatorship [early 90s, I believe?] and was a democracy. I would expect that the English would try really hard to save the Constitutional Monarchy in case they tried to lean towards France, so I would see the Eurofighter and Meteor project as a way to 'persuade' Spain to continue its democracy. Unfortunately, at some point Phillip VI led his coup, his father was killed and he joined the Holy League.

However, I think it should be taken into consideration that if Spain [well, Phillip VI] survives the war he plans to leave the Holy League. This doesn't mean end the alliance with France; it will keep the blood alliance with its fellow Bourbons, and it will consider France it's closest partner, but ICly we are fed up with the Russians who we consider false treaty members. Differences between the Tsar and His Most Catholic Majesty dealing with Morocco have also driven a wedge between Russia and Spain, as well as Russia's rash decision to cut arms supply to Morocco because Morocco refused to kick Spanish troops out of the country. In the end Spain will probably try to get closer to Germany and Israel, and remain close to France.

Ok, did I just read that Germany is now supplying the HL? That was..unexpected. But at least we can go back to hating Germany again from across the pond, though something like 60% of Quinntonians are Luthernas and many of them of the German-based variety who see Germany as their spiritual homeland.

As to BG, I would love to see a comprehensive nuclear and WMD policy and treaty signed right away, I am glad to see that you are agreeable to one. I am going to bring it up in my diplomacy thread, if Quinntonia and BG can sit down and sign it, more should come, and maybe that should shut down the question for AMW?

So, that would mean that the attacks and history up to now happened as is, but that at the last minute BG and Quinntonia signed an agreement that forbade any use of nukes and WMDs, except in retaliation. If then, we could get the HL nations to sign, and maybe others, we could just sit back and have a proper war, with some good RP. How about that?

WWJD
Amen.

^I like.

Mac: Full details of the AS-12 Cavalier Air Dominance Fighter and AS-17 Templar Air Superiority/Strike Fighter can be found in my military factbook, but I'll give you the quick rundown.

The AS-12 is a fabulously expensive design project that resulted in an aircraft mostly comparable to the F/A-22 Raptor, with similar flight characteristics and stealth capability. It's not-so-slowly replacing older-model aircraft such as the AF/A-18F Super Hornet and the AS-6 Interceptor as the main combat aircraft of Australasia. As more companies rush to produce them and parts become more widely available, production is up. But they're still nearly unheard of anywhere besides the most forward commands of Australasia.

The AS-17 is a more well-rounded fighter, designed to be a capable ground-attack aircraft with decent stealth qualities. It's slightly less fancy than the F-35, and has replaced older aircraft as the standard strike fighter of the Air Corps and Naval Air Corps.

As it is, Australasia can barely afford both designs, so most of the other aircraft you'll be seeing from now on are AS-6s, which I haven't designed yet, (think F-15/16 equivalents) and AF/A-18Fs from Quinntonia.

The Vulcans are... Vulcans, refurbished so that they fly and suchlike. Lancaster IIs are eventually going to replace them, but they won't fully do so for about a month in RL.

Range-wise, that's fine. Have 'em land somewhere, and I'm sure that they'll be able to dogfight well enough.

Gurguvungunit, then assume I changed my post to the aircraft leaving the proximities of Cadiz, as opposed to Lisbon; moving a bit northeast and then sweeping in north and behind your aircraft. Thank God for geography, because otherwise my aircraft would need sheer numerical superiority to be able to engage your forces from the front.

Hey guys...has NG dissappeared on us again?

On the matter of Germany, if I may, I'd like to reccomend that we see the seller post about transfers, rather than the buyers... at the moment we have a few posts where Walmington implies London-Berlin relations becoming closer, and then the sudden announcement by League powers that they've been given some rather potent German armaments. It just doesn't flow well with the unfloding narrative, if you know what I mean... with Germany posting their own actions, then there would be an opportunity to place the action in context, so that a reader (if not to the knowledge of IC governments) could understand motives, and put the ongoing story elements in proper perspective.

-------------

A query... where does Morocco's nuclear test fit into the timeline? Is it in the days prior to their attack on the Saharawi (perhaps a demonstration of power to keep the outside world wary of involvement?), or in the aftermath of Libya's nuclear defence (to keep Tripoli from exploiting a 'nuclear advantage' in Maghreb politics?)

--------------

On the Holy League and Spain... did all the League powers sign the Charter put forward by the French at Rome? I recall few actual ' "we agree" *signet punch*' posts before it went inactive.

In any event, ties to France MEAN ties to Russia... Wingert's daughter is the French queen, after all, and her young son is potentially in line for either/both thrones, isn't he?

I'll ask Space to post in IC post dealing with German transfers, description of routes, et cetera; what he transfers sorta depends on whatever Spain and Morocco asks ICly, and that's assumed automatically confirmed, but I'm sure that he can work something out. I'll tell him when I get back from class this afternoon. Morocco's nuclear strike should be after the offensive on the Saharawi - maybe a day after. It would be in response to Libya's nuclear strike and the American deployment to war, and probably emergency prodding by Spain to stock up on tactical weapons in Morocco. All the while, I think the HL's three biggest members [only members?] , Spain, France and Russia have all signed the charter... and of indirect ties to Russia...well.. knowing royal blood that would be hard to get rid of, so I think I can live with that. :P

The test was indeed a Response to the American deployment and in response to the nuclear weapons deployment against the ODSE bomber units, inorder to demonstrate that they are not the only North African Power with the assets to wipe another off the map.
On that, im going to probably have built about 60 warheads of that design by Friday 13th of October, (ie in the next RL month), then il detonate a second device, this time a fully home grown weapon (the primary in these weapons is supplied by spain, while the Moroccans designed the rest of the bomb) with a yield about 20kT.[Morrocco doesnt yet have the capability to build its own implosion weapons, thats why im using Spanish tacnukes as the core of my bombs]

OOC @ Gurg's latest post : The BVRAAM I sold was a copy of the Meteor and hence really should be considered equal in all stats. I've read somewhere that the Meteor had a range of over 100km, so I just copied it :)

Gragh. Way to not tell me that. I'll edit. Uhm, guess I'll need to start drawing up plans for an ABVRAAM somewhere...

Splutter!
Industrial sabotage!
*Shakes fist*

Well, the technological edge is well and truly killed. Time to complete the naval building and troop recruitment programmes inherited from Bull's '90s administration. Battleships away, and let the Empire pay for it later!

And they all laughed when we started working on Death Rays and Sharks With Laser Beams Attached To Their Heads. Perhaps now we should work on something involving Atomic Mutation? :D

Well, if Walmington ever wants to contract out battleship construction, we'd be happy to help... between the Lyong-ti's yards and the multiple Draken assembly ports left behind in Sujava, we've got more bloated drydocks and oversized foundries than we know what to do with.

I'm still trying to figure out what else that sort of infrastructure can be used for...

Sorry a thing as it may be -in the eyes of PM Mainwaring- to see British military-industrial reliance placed upon a bunch of Oriental socialists, we might just have to embrace that idea. British yards are racing to have the Royal Fleet Auxiliary catch-up with the RN surface fleet and submarine service, and the largest facilities still working on the last fleet carriers (King George and Ark Royal). Two more Courageous Class battleships, to become HMS Indefatigable and Illustrious, are building in Britain, but there were proposals for two more battleship types.

Things have changed a fair bit, but we still want more battleships. I'm just trying to decide whether we'll have enough bases around the world to stick with the low-bunkerage oil-fired tradition, or shell-out for nuclear power. And then there's the fact that they might have to be powerful enough that we need not be too intimidated by the Soviet Utopias, while their main enemy, the Cherbourgs, could be taken-on with something far less capable. *Scratches head*

As an aside, I've always wondered about Eurofighter. France dropped out early on and developed Rafale... Italy joined the HL dead early on, and clearly could no longer work with Britain and Germany, so must have dropped out, possibly going for Rafale with France... the Catholic Kingdom of Spain was long suspected and soon enough joined the League, and did they really choose to stick with Eurofighter, and were they really allowed to do so by Britain and Germany? I know the issue's come up before, over how many Eurofighters there are, but I can't get my head around anyone but Britain and Germany continuing to work on it, unless Italy and Spain thought they could afford to take-up the majority shares handled by those nations, and had the technical means to go ahead, when Rafale was just sitting there, costing less and being handled by France. Maybe it's just me, but I can't help frowning when I see Eurofighter outside Anglo-German control.

Decided I might as well speak up for this one. I wouldn't know how much counterbalacing would happen if Austria (and maybe New Switzerland?) helped long in the Eurofighter program while still relativly Holy League un-tainted. Could actually give me a reason (excuse) to have them produced domestically instead of importing them from Germany.

Oh, SU and I need to have a talk. A long, long talk. *fumes about the Meteor Project and the Eurofighter Typhoon some more*

Perhaps you might also wish to have a chat with Imperial Aerospace?

*Waves from the super-comfy cockpit of a Jetfire IID*

Nah, the AS-12 is more my style.

Seriously, where's Maccabees? I'm sort of wondering if the Iron West series has tanked and I can recall the Island Fleet.

Nah, the AS-12 is more my style.

Seriously, where's Maccabees? I'm sort of wondering if the Iron West series has tanked and I can recall the Island Fleet.

Well, if that is winding down it always makes room for Austria's Afrika Corps... ;)