NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, you cant have a war without an OOC thread, thats for sure. And we have had a bit of chat on the IC thread, ergo voila!

You all know the deal, please feel free to post away.

I already asked in the IC thread, but I'm-a need both Jean and Mac's fleet dispositions in the Mediterranean sea, and those of other HL nations that I'm at war with by proxy, or anyone else that might be attacking the Island Fleet.

Also, I'd like to get an idea of how detectable our fighters are. Obviously, both Rafales and AS-12/17s are built to be difficult to detect. My fighters are on par with the F/A-22/35 respectively, as it seems are the Harrier IVs.

Since we're going to have air combat soon, I'd like to have this worked out. I've seen pages (can't find them just now, I'll try harder if you want to see them) that compared the F-22 and Rafale as far as stealth/combat ability. I think that the F-22 came out on top in every respect except turn radius, where the Rafale's wing shape gave it the advantage. The F-22 always got off the first shot at beyond visual range combat (BVR) and usually, but not always, scored a kill.

Now, I'm not EXACTLY sure how my fighter compares to the F-22. It's a tad weaker in the Thrust/Weight ratio area; but still enough to outdo the Rafale. The AS-12 has 4D thrust vectoring and canards, which make it absurdly maneuverable but prone to breaking, in which case it becomes around equal to the Rafale (perhaps a bit less). More details can be found on the offsite forums. Radar cross section is probably the same as the F-22's, since I rounded off everything I could and bent what I couldn't at a not-right angle, in addition to covering it with anti-radar paint.

It's been a good war so far. Everyone's writing is very nice, and the combat is complex and cerebral. Nice going all.

I was just wondering, what size and class are the QE3 Carriers? Do they have an equivelent in RL?

Tsar Wingert the Great.

I've got to ask you, NG, how you landed 3,000 marines with two landing ships, plus several other divisions, with only two LPDs when the best of them can carry mabye a thousand men tops, and that's only with rifles and web kit.

I read somewhere that the F-22 had a projected kill ratio against the Su-35 of 10:1, whereas the eurofighter came in at 4.5:1 and the Rafale came in at 1:1. I'll try and find the source. As a tidbit, the F-22 is much much stealthier than the F-35.

As for thrust vectoring (I hope you meant 3D! 4D is time travel) - the 2D thrust vectoring on the F-22 is masked, whereas it is more difficult to mask a 3D thrust vector such as the ones on Su-37s.

The Rafale also has some form of active radar cancellation (apparently), but against the F-22's LPI radar I don't think it would work terribly effectively.

That'll be the DERA (Defence Evaluation and Research Agency, now defunct, I think) study, China. It's not perfect, since they didn't have all the information about the Su-35 and some of the other aircraft that would have been ideal, and all the western planes used AMRAAM, except Rafale which used Mica, but yeah, Typhoon kicked Rafale's arse in that study.

F-22 was far and away the winner, followed by Typhoon, and then another big drop came before Su-35, Rafale, and possibly the J-10, not sure, which had parity with one another. F-15 was a bit back again, some sort of upgraded F-18, and the F-16 both had the tar kicked out of them.

Of course Walmington's Typhoons using a Meteor missile will have an improved performance.

But that was a study from some years ago, and with more information the results may have changed.

As for thrust vectoring (I hope you meant 3D! 4D is time travel) - the 2D thrust vectoring on the F-22 is masked, whereas it is more difficult to mask a 3D thrust vector such as the ones on Su-37s.


Snipped, for ease of reading.

In this case, 4D means that there are four vanes to control the thrust vector, rather than three or two (see NS Draftroom tutorial about fighters). I'm unsure as to what you mean by 'masked', which sort of highlights the fact that I don't do aircraft design often or well. If you mean that it's more detectable, I wasn't aware that there were instruments to detect aircraft by finding their jetstream.

EDIT: I haven't worked out the avionics of the AS-12 yet, so I can't say as to whether or not I have an LPI RADAR equivalent (or just bought it from the USQ) but I would assume so. This aircraft was designed to be, in essence, comparable to the best fighters in the world. And it nearly killed the Air Corps budget for about three years, I'd imagine.

Also, I always assumed that the QEIII was a renaming of the RL Royal Navy's CVF Programme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CVF). Was I right, or wrong?

Yeah, it's something from that base- the Commonwealth Oceanic Guard is copying one or two of its features in our future carrier programme (which continues to struggle, after nearly quarter of a century's effort has given us six light carrier assault-ships and one mid-size fleet carrier of questionable quality! Sigh.).

OOC: Guys, I need help compiling a list for Russian military assets...how does one go about making one of those lists? I have no idea where to start...

I've got to ask you, NG, how you landed 3,000 marines with two landing ships, plus several other divisions, with only two LPDs when the best of them can carry mabye a thousand men tops, and that's only with rifles and web kit.

I meant to elaborate. When the fleet broke off, the support section moved with a defense squadron to Lagos. The Battlegroup obviously began its firing, and many of the support ships with a light escort participated in the landing mission. In other words, troops moving from transport ships to landing ships company after company for landing. It is the French attempt at opening up a full Western Front, that when completely landed will prove a offensive force.

John, if I may, I stupidly posted the last of the OOC affairs on the IC thread in regards to the Med and deployments, Ill get something up soon too, will resume these heavy duty postitures after a few IRL chores. As I said in the thread, give me just a little breather guys, try not to post any more major moves till tonight or whatever time it is where you fine people are until I manage my response, and hopefully in respect to Spain those RPing with him as well too.

Now, to serious business, the Rafale. The Rafale is alot tougher than you guys give it credit for and is gaining total popularity in the French ODSE. It is in fact a really a remarkable aircraft. Heres some facts, please read up:

Dassault Rafale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale)

Now, the Mirage-2000 provides about 1/3 now of direct French airpower, as well as forming sizeable reserve forces in France, IC info on that as well. And about 9/10 of fighter roles in Algeria and the African theatre are performed by the Mirage-2000, which is not a bad aircraft in its own righ either. Some facts:

Dassault Mirage-2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_2000)

Oh and AC, Wikipedia man. Trust me. Type in Russian military and prepared to be blown away. God, I love Wikipedia.com!

OOC: Guys, I need help compiling a list for Russian military assets...how does one go about making one of those lists? I have no idea where to start...

I have great sources for Soviet assets in 1990, as well as excellent sources on Soviet and Russian armour, but that's about it. :)

And, I bought my ticket today. I will be gone from thursday to August 20th. I will try my hardest to get some posts in that time. I promise! Tomorrow, I will get a post in for Walmington.

NG, DERA doesn't lie, whereas Wikipedia is... subject to change. 10:1 kill ratio is excellent, and shows that essentially the Rafale is outclassed. Anyway, I'm not saying that the Rafale isn't an excellent aircraft that'll give my pilots a run for their money. What I'm saying is that all other things being equal, the F-22 (and by extension AS-12) will usually win. Except that you have more numbers, and can easily overwhelm my fighter wings if yours are used effectively and I screw up.

In addition, the Air Corps isn't fully switched over from the AS-6, a decidedly F-15 era fighter. All of my carrier based squadrons that you'll face are, but that pretty much maxes out my supply of AS-12s. More are being produced every day, but they're expensive and difficult to make. I'd have to subcontract out of nation to get full replacement, and I don't want anyone learning my secrets just yet. AS-17s, on the other hand, have fully supplanted AS-2 strike fighters (F-18 equivalents).

Reading the page, it pretty much sounds like the Rafale has most of the electronics that the F-22 does, but it can't keep up in stealth/manoeuvering ability.

Mac, your being gone... causes me to reconsider my invasion policies. It won't work if you're not at home... but that's fine. I kind of wanted an excuse to not attack you, since I've talked tactics with you a few times more than one ought with their 'enemy'. Have a good trip, wherever you're going.

I don't really trust internet sources, but this is interesting: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/9735/rafale1.htm

This is why I originally played WWII tech: modern tech is essentially the same as post-modern tech in many respects, since we the general public typically don't know what does and doesn't actually exist in use, nor how well it actually works or how well it actually can be countered. With eight .30" machineguns and a starched linen skin you can easily enough figure out whether or not a plane's going down!

Hehe, let's kick the M out of AMW! ;)

OOC: Walmington, plz reply to my naval buildup thread, I really want those subs
btw, dont mean to jack the thread

Sorry, it seems unlikely that we're going to be able to follow that avenue through. The war with France and Spain is intensifying, and the Confederacy maintains claims to Britain's South Atlantic islands. We're unlikely to sell nuclear submarines while these problems remain.


Question now from a player who until recently had Hurricane rip-offs flying CAP and Swordfish biplanes dropping unguided torpedoes against enemy warships :) ...Storm Shadow/SCALP EG as an anti-ship weapons. The Spanish are attempting to loose a good many against our fleet, so the usual pre-programming of target location and disposition of air defences along the way doesn't seem to be practical; and the whole digital terrain profile thing, maybe not much help at sea, either? Then I'm afraid that I don't know much about the infra red imager dealy and how that'll handle a moving ship as opposed to an unchanging building or such, but is there any potential issue with the orientation of the moving ship in relation to a pre-stored target recognition image dealy? Heh.

We're using bolt action rifles and bayonets if we ever get a foothold on the continent, you realise :)

Well, what kind of guidance does the TASM have? AFAIK, it uses the same as the standard BGM-109. Given from the preformance of the TASM, I don't think the SCALP EG will have very many problems.

Just as well, it seems rather fishy that you were able to catch my flight leaving my carriers, given that they were not at altitude, and my carriers are most likely hundreds of kilometers away from your fleets, making radar an unlikely candidate for processing of the needed information. I dunno; I might be defending this because this is really one of the only ways I can possibly attack, given that I use Spain's real life fleet, while I'm fighting opponents with fleets the size of those used during the Second World War. Furthermore, the entire idea of masking the identity of the Eurofighters as Lancaster IIs is so that when they launch the decoy missiles you think they are cruise missile launched from a Lancaster II, not from a Eurofighter.

AFW? With zomfgwtfloluberspaceguncruisers? Sounds fun?

Mac, do you think you'll be around this summer enough to post regularly, or ought I actually look for a better invasion path?

Mac, do you think you'll be around this summer enough to post regularly, or ought I actually look for a better invasion path?


Maybe once every two weeks, to tell you the truth.

Okay, now, Im confused.

Whats this, first of all, about the French fleet being alone now? I read no such indications of that.

Second, well, thats it. I understand Wal is not taking damage on that last attack, I assume hes waiting for me to post.

Ill do that, tonight. Gah, I must needs the shower!

Hey, that's fine. I'd happily take a vacation (I assume that's what you're doing) rather than stay at home and worry about AMW events. I'll attack somewhere else instead.

On the other hand, we could treat Spain as an NPC and appoint an RPer, if Mac's okay with that. Anyway, whatevs.

Who controls Malta? Majorca?

The French fleet in the Channel, which was to be supproted by another that instead turned around to reinforce the French and Spanish fleets fighting the British and Australasians, is alone in the sense that it is one fleet where previously it was to be two.

As to detecting the Rafales, they're a lot of fighters with external stores forming a large wing in the middle of a theatre of combat where we have several hundred kilometre range fighter radars with look-down capability, Nimrod maritime patrol and AEW aircraft, many new MASC helicopters, and about the most modern and powerful shipboard radar going. They then flew to what would be within a few nautical miles of a CAP. *Shrug*

Unfortunately for France and Spain, the Royal Navy has 132 fast, long-range, heavily armed shipboard fighters in the fight, plus scores of other shipboard and land-based/tanker-supported aircraft. Deceptions have worked in drawing dozens of interceptors against false threats, but what would have destroyed a Thatcherite fleet may not necessarily trouble a Bull-legacy Mainwaringer fleet in the same way.

It almost seems to be a fight in which everyone is too strong. The French have too many fleets for us to sink them all, and we have to much fleet air power for gaps to be easily forced through it. We need a real WWIII to see how things would actually go, heh.

Anyway, nope, Tomahawk ASM uses a radar seeker, after being launched in the general direction of the target and then flying about a bit as it tries to find something to attack. So far as I know, TERCOM is useless over water.

Majorca I assume is just part of Spain. Malta is NPC, though Al Khals briefly controlled Gozo. I would sail our battleship up and move some troops from Cyprus to secure it, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with what may look like a land-grab of that sort.

I'm not, terribly. If I can get someone to do the NPC on it, my plan is to use it as a naval base. I'd leave the government in charge, but make it clear that for the duration of the war it belongs to the Anti-HL movement unless situations dictate otherwise.

Sorry, it seems unlikely that we're going to be able to follow that avenue through. The war with France and Spain is intensifying, and the Confederacy maintains claims to Britain's South Atlantic islands. We're unlikely to sell nuclear submarines while these problems remain.
OOC: The Confederacy (as well as any antion made up around or composed by Argentina) will always lay claim to the South Atlantic Islands. Hopefully, we can overcome this. All we want is at most 2 fleet carriers, which would agument our already sizeble diesel-sub fleet.



We're using bolt action rifles and bayonets if we ever get a foothold on the continent, you realise :)
thats not gonna be of much use against assault rifles. Great nostalgia, and looks good for parades tho

thats not gonna be of much use against assault rifles. Great nostalgia, and looks good for parades tho

You'd be surprised. Have you got any experience with firearms in RL, Franberry?

The SMLE Mk III, the Lee-Enfield No 4, and the L-E No 5 Mk I "Jungle Carbine" all have incredibly fast bolt actions- comparable to a semi-auto, in fact, with better accuracy.

The Roycelandian Colonial Guard have been fighting wars in Africa for over a century armed with Bolt-Action SMLE Mk III rifles and Bayonets, and the entire Roycelandian Military are trained extensively in Bayonet Fighting...

The Igovian warriors may be a fearsome sight with theire Blue Woad and Swords, but an Imperial Guard Bayonet Charge is a sight to behold in it's own right...

Actually, although totally off topic; the British Redcoats were perhaps the most feared fighting army in all of history. They were known to be 'impossible' to break, even by the Imperial Guard of France. Standard tactical doctrine was to line them up on advantageous ground and begin volly fire, which was a practice in which the companies would fire from one end of the regiment's line to the other, while the previous company reloaded. That had a constant stream of fire going all the time.

When the enemy looked shaky, the British would fix bayonets and walk almost the full distance to their enemy. Once the regulars started walking, they were almost impossible to turn back. When they reached ten paces or so from their enemy, they would break into a sudden sprint and hit the enemy as one line. No army in history actually stood through such an event in which the British line actually made contact, although some were able to turn back a charge.

[off topic]To counter the Roycelandian immitation of that, I'm sure that the Geletians have their highland charge, which is something that did break redcoat lines (all be it redcoats on the defensive). Meanwhile we have the hide in a bush/on a roof, wait for him to look distracted, shoot once, run the hell away tradition to maintain, živeo![/off topic]

Okay Walmington, got it. You must admit, about 30 things are happening at once here, and it is remarkable how it is done through free form narrative. Ill have something up by tommorrow, its alot to digest and Ill need to sleep on it. Factoid, I useually figure out my AMW ideas while stuck in traffic, its really relaxing, and Mozart only does so much when youre surrounded by idiot slobs driving civilian issue tanks, the more fanciful versions thereof trying to show off in a childish manner at the expense of their fellow motorists safety. Sometimes, when I get a good idea, I even have a notebook to jot things down in. My wife, even though she really doesnt need one, ahem, has a Blackberry, but I still subscribe to the theory that all good ideas come from pencil and paper, with the computer serving as a destiller. Its gotten to the point where I have so much material done, I just may do a novel on a French Restoration, attempt one of course. The plot has nearly written itself...::...plagarizes AMW for all its worth::

I must admit I see ourselves rather as a literary and political commentary clique of fiction-writers, hands down better all than someone like, I dont know, Turtledove. I think as well it is simply so satisfying to affect in our little world what we are hopeless to achieve in our own, unless perchance I suppose one of us ends up in government, which is a ghastly idea. Now, Im sure alot more would get done in government, wheels would certainly turn, but I think that itd soon go to fifth gear and the screeching tires and revving engines.

Well yes John but Waterloo is not a very good example in that regard. Look at all the times Napoleon sent Wellington on the run, though admittedly I myself am no fan of Napoleon nor his actions. But hey, what Frenchman can speak of Napoleon without some pride. Strange fact, in a recent pole when the French were asked what theyd like to see more of in movies and TV, for the cultural section, suprisingly enoughy, they chose the Emperor.

All I want is some colonies people, and a little room to move around. It should be as easy as real estate escrow, and the Bourbons have to slog through the bush to get a few square miles. Ahh, what a world.

Well, given the Geletian penchant for Claymore Swords and Shields, and the Roycelandian Penchant for Firearms and Bayonets, you can imagine any battle between the two is going to be incredibly bloody.

Of course, the Colonial Guard (and, to a lesser extent, the Imperial Guard) still fight in much that way... Volley Fire, bayonet charges, and all sorts of other things designed to ensure brown trousers time for their enemies... ;)

Did we ever get an answer about the QE3 Carriers? Do they have a Quinntonian equivelent?

Also, since the Russian player is back now, perhaps AC could take over Spain for the duration of Mac's vacation?

How would that be for veryone involved?
WWJD
Amen.

Hahhahahahahahah....no.

I know next to nothing about naval warfare. I would drown in a sea of technical data while Walmington would tech me until I bled. Sorry Quinnt, I can't.

I could handle any land combat and air combat, however.

I'm also bouncing around some ideas for a new nation, but more on that later.

EDIT: "...unless perchance I suppose one of us ends up in government, which is a ghastly idea."

Hey now! I've worked my ass off for a 4.3 GPA to do just that, my friend. I am counting on all of your votes when I run for the Presidency in 2040, after all. (It gives all of you non-American AMWers time to apply for citizenship...)

I fear that it may be in the world's best interests for me to become an American just to vote against that campaign! ;)

Well, Armand, if you promise to make me Secretary of Firearms, Alcohol, Gambling, and Adult Entertainment, you can count on my vote! :D

My own plans to become Emperor of Australia have been thwarted by the fact I have to renounce my NZ Citizenship to be elected to Federal Parliament here, and I rather like the vaguely James Bond-esque qualities that having two passports entails... ;)

The first of the Queen Elizabeth III Class fleet aircraft carriers were laid-down in the 1990s under the British Industrial Democratic Party government of John Bull, and have now replaced all three Invincible Class carriers, which became essentially obsolete at the end of the 1980s with the perceived end of the Soviet submarine threat.

Launched in the late 1990s, the leadship, Queen Elizabeth III, was joined near to the end of the Bull administration by a second ship, since renamed Alfred the Great. The third QEIII, laid-down during the Bull years, was completed under the Tories, renamed, and then renamed again this year under the Whigs, and HMS King Athelstan has just this month been joined by His Majesty's Ship Godfrey Grâce à Dieu, known fondly as the Good Godfrey.

Good Godfrey was commissioned under way, and still has several civilian workers aboard as she engages Franco-Spanish forces in the North Atlantic, giving the Royal Navy four QEIII Class fleet carriers in commission, while a fifth, set reportedly to become King George, has been launched and remains under construction, and the sixth and final QEIII has been laid-down and shall become the Ark Royal.

Each ship of the Queen Elizabeth III Class displaces about as much as the entire fleet of three Invincibles, but only around two thirds of a Nimitz Class supercarrier, and the British carriers are some forty metres shorter than Quinntonia's most numerous equivalent. The QEIIIs though are substantially larger than France's Charles de Gaulle.

The British carriers are designed for a possible fifty-year service life, which, being beyond that of the new Sea Harrier 4 STOVL carrier aircraft, means that they are initially configured for STOVL operation with in-built capacity for easy change to CTOL in a mid-life adaptation expectant of new carrier aircraft. Even now the design supports simultaneous launch and recovery operations.

The carrier is quite unconventional, not related to any others in the world though it has been said that the Indian Soviets intend to copy some basic design elements such as the distinctive use of two islands, one being for ship control functions and the other flight control. The STOVL version has a 13-degree ski ramp, which will be removed, and catapults fitted, if and when configuration changes to CTOL operation.

Bull's government eventually reinstated bulkhead and side armouring, and fitted two sixteen-cell VLS for PAAAMS surface-to-air missiles, and the ship also has Evolved Goalkeeper 30mm CIWIS. The carriers have Sampson radar, amongst the world's most advanced and capable, giving a 400km target detection and tracking range in automatic mode.

QEIII is still a non-nuclear-powered vessel, however, as the BID government did want to make some savings, and the design's two shafts are powered by Rolls-Royce-Wychwood Advanced Marine Gas Turbines, giving an official top speed of 27 knots, though none of the carriers have yet been observed sprinting at any more than 25. A 10,000 nautical mile cruise range is possible at 15 knots.

The QEIII can transport up to 800 Royal Marines under short-term conditions, but more to the point has a maximum capacity for 60 aircraft, though this is apparently considered more than ideal, and forty-odd aircraft was more normal until the outbreak of war. Air wing includes Sea Harrier 4 strike fighters, EH-101 Merlin helicopers, and Merlin MASC surveillance and control platforms. Seaking, Gazelle, Lynx, Apache, Harrier IV, and UAVs may also be operated from QEIII.

The Admiralty likes to claim that while she is smaller than Quinntonia's old super carriers, the Queen Elizabeth III Class is the world's most advanced aircraft carrier, and the Walmingtonian public certainly has the impression of a carrier that is the world's least sinkable.

A (quite large, be warned) impression of a QEIII, represented in operation of Quinntonian-supplied jets (http://navy-matters.beedall.com/cvfimagesbig/cvf-stovl2-big.jpg)

And here's a smaller image (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/cvf-bae-pic1.jpg)

I wouldn't imagine that napoleonic tactics would really bother a Union infantryman, especially one supported by towed MRLs and a ton of armored cars.

But I think the Roycelandians might find their volley fire a bit less than effective when militia Vijayantas and T-55s show up.

<snip>


Yes, but that was the point of launching the false attack from the mainland! It was to draw your ASW and your fighter screen away from the greater threat, which was painted to be smaller. *sigh* Whatever. It just seems that you are overestimating yourself, and painting this as a Holy League is destined to fail fight, and it's getting rather rediculous - but, I don't really care. I don't think you have the strength to have 150+ aircraft to the south, and have similar or more capabilities [which you seriously should have alotted to meet the Lancaster II flight] to your east... but once again, oh well.

Yes, but that was the point of launching the false attack from the mainland! It was to draw your ASW and your fighter screen away from the greater threat, which was painted to be smaller. *sigh* Whatever. It just seems that you are overestimating yourself, and painting this as a Holy League is destined to fail fight, and it's getting rather rediculous - but, I don't really care. I don't think you have the strength to have 150+ aircraft to the south, and have similar or more capabilities [which you seriously should have alotted to meet the Lancaster II flight] to your east... but once again, oh well.
Mac's right, Walmington. You're being overconfident and simply assuming that you'll win. The odds may be on your side, but that doesn't necessitate the constant "I'm going to win and you have no chance" attitude. Additionally, your response to Mac's little deception was inadequate. There's no way a real life Naval commander could have known it was fake, and there's no way a real Naval commander would've dispatched so few assets towards a target that seemed so dangerous.

Royce: Here's the problem with volley fire. To counter it (and destroy the Roycelandian army, you set up a machine gun in some kind of cover behind a small force of soldiers to draw Roycelandian fire/keep the enemy in place, and then open up on them. They die pretty quick, those Imperial Guardsmen.

Now, if they fought like the riflemen (running and firing, covering each other, making a mess of things, going for the enemy's leaders etc) while keeping a more modern force as a sort of linchpin, they'd be very effective.

What's the availability/reasonableness of IR sensors on ships to detect submarines?

EDIT: And Walmington expended his entire fighter force attacking the targets, leaving only a small number of aircraft over the fleet proper. I'd expect that no admiral would send his entire fighter screen to deal with threats, no matter how big they looked. It's a bad plan, leaving your entire fleet unprotected by aircraft from surprise attacks. I'm not saying he shouldn't take damage; two or three ASMs might get through and sink a cruiser or whatever, but he needn't eviscerate his fleet in the face of several bombers.

*Rubs temples*

I know how many fighters I have, I know where they all are, Longworth has dispatched squadrons to face every threat real or false, and he still doesn't have any major fleet assets without fighter cover. I don't know what you want me to do... pretend that 132 actually means forty, pretend that the fleet is something that it isn't, fight like my commanders are inbred aristocrats who got their posts by nepotistic appointment even though that's really more of a HL thing.

With a fighter umbrella over his fleet, itself containing some of the strongest air and point defences of any in the world, and new threats magically appearing left right and centre, Longworth dispatched fighters to investigate and disrupt every one, ignoring none as deceptions. That's what happened. What? It's a fight, both sides are fighting. Maybe the HL has a problem with that, and should stick to shooting at people who have no intelligence assets or firepower?

And nothing changes the useless nature of the main Spanish attack, anyway, which won't score a single hit whether we shoot back or lie around sunbathing on deck.

*Rubs temples*

I know how many fighters I have, I know where they all are, Longworth has dispatched squadrons to face every threat real or false, and he still doesn't have any major fleet assets without fighter cover. I don't know what you want me to do... pretend that 132 actually means forty, pretend that the fleet is something that it isn't, fight like my commanders are inbred aristocrats who got their posts by nepotistic appointment even though that's really more of a HL thing.

.... that's the idea. The huge fleet of Lancasters was supposed to distract your fleet.

With a fighter umbrella over his fleet, itself containing some of the strongest air and point defences of any in the world, and new threats magically appearing left right and centre, Longworth dispatched fighters to investigate and disrupt every one, ignoring none as deceptions. That's what happened. What? It's a fight, both sides are fighting. Maybe the HL has a problem with that, and should stick to shooting at people who have no intelligence assets or firepower?

New threats magically appearing left, right and center? Ummm... you were just attacked by French Lancasters. More Lancasters WAS a threat - I don't know why your commander would magically know that you knew they weren't Lancasters.

And nothing changes the useless nature of the main Spanish attack, anyway, which won't score a single hit whether we shoot back or lie around sunbathing on deck.

...

...

..

...


That's just rediculous, and on the border of godmodding.

By the way, all your attacks against my fleet will fail misreably too, because I know EVERYTHING. :)

EDIT: And Walmington expended his entire fighter force attacking the targets, leaving only a small number of aircraft over the fleet proper. I'd expect that no admiral would send his entire fighter screen to deal with threats, no matter how big they looked. It's a bad plan, leaving your entire fleet unprotected by aircraft from surprise attacks. I'm not saying he shouldn't take damage; two or three ASMs might get through and sink a cruiser or whatever, but he needn't eviscerate his fleet in the face of several bombers.

So, instead he should use his entire fighter screen to attack my fighters, because he magically knows they are the real threat?

It did distract assets from the fleet. Fighters were sent to intercept from two carriers, others from Queen Elizabeth III remain on CAP closer to the fleet.

The fleet has massive target handling abilities, and even one ship from the many amongst it would potentially have resources enough to trace every real and fake aircraft and deployed missiles.

Our commanders didn't know that they weren't real, which is why we didn't ignore them and did send fighters to intercept. The number sent was moderated by Longworth's suspicion that some of the traced threats were accounted for in a deception of some sort and a desire to avoid leaving his fleet exposed at this early stage, but fighters were still sent against every one.

And we're not going to be hit by missiles that can't navigate towards us any more than you would be.

So, instead he should use his entire fighter screen to attack my fighters, because he magically knows they are the real threat?

What the hell are you talking about? Twelve fighters attacked your thirty-six. If my entire screen attacked you, you'd have no Rafales left, we'd have faced no dangers to the fleet, and we'd now be sinking your entire fleet.

...But, sadly for Walmington, that's not what happened.

Twelve is a smaller number than one hundred and thirty-two, for anyone who is still confused.

Aren't your fighters flying WITH your bombers? Or if not, they're still somewhat detectable, especially by AWACS. IIRC, your fighters have bombs/missiles carried on exterior racks (Sidewinders?) that show up fairly well on RADAR, even if the planes themselves don't. I have trouble believing in the 'active RADAR cancellation' stuff that Rafales claim to have, since everything I've seen on the subject says 'claim to have' or 'may have'. Essentially, we don't know for sure.

Like he said, Longworth sent fighters to every target, while still keeping a defensive screen. Not knowing how many missiles you actually launched (that cause damage, I'm not really counting decoys here), I can't be sure whether or not he should take hits. I think he should, Goalkeeper CIWS has proven itself... less than reliable before. A few (2-3, like I said) should get through owing to the fairly large decoy launch. He might just take a bit of damage around the fleet, he might lose a ship. But I still maintain that your attack wasn't enough in terms of actual firepower IIRC to score major points in the engagement, just unsettle the fleet and poke a few holes.

By the by, the air to air missiles loosed against those Spanish Rafales of ALARCON flight are BAe Meteors ordered by Bull. Loosed from fast platforms and descending on targets, as we know.

The thing is, these are new missiles, replacing AMRAAM... they're not just long-range missiles like Phoenix, that long-range Russian dealy, or the Indian Soviets' AAELRS or whatever it's called. The main feature with them is that they are manoeuvrable at range, expanding the so-called no-escape-zone to perhaps double that of AMRAAM et cetera.

I don't think that I specified (sorry), but the twelve fighters moving against ALARCON would have loosed their missiles at probably something approaching eighty kilometres, against closing targets. Normally that would mean that the Spanish were just entering the no-escape zone and would have fairish chances of pulling back or evading (but with a heavy external payload of ASMs I can't imagine it being overly easy), but I don't know how being so low would change things (possibly it'd make the missiles more likely to ditch or something, but it seems as likely that the Spanish just have less options for manoeuvre?).

On Spanish missiles, the main point is not our defences but that they're trying to use missiles with no radar seeker and with terrain identification guidance over the ocean.

((An aside: I'm sorry, the internet makes me much more irritable than I would otherwise be in a situation, possibly because of the impossibility of seeing other people's faces/body-language, and hearing their voices, but I'm sure it'd be a lot less tense and more smiley if this were a pub table.))

Indeed, Mac...you can't exactly hit a fleet at sea, moving at combat speeds, with GPS-guided missiles. Not to mention, the Storm Shadow is rather wimpy to begin with, traveling no faster than the Sea Eagle, and it therefore doesn't stand much chance of hurting Walmingtonian armored ships.

And keep in mind that the Walmingtonian Navy has at its disposal what are the best anti-aircraft ships outside Quinntonia, possibly better, and lots of them. Even one Daring-class destroyer can take care of itself, never mind over a dozen of them. And why wouldn't a career naval officer, a student of history and a capable commander, be on the lookout for deceptions? And as he'd said, its not like the whole fleet's air cover is piling on top of the Rafales.

Is it all that unrealistic to see the Rafales intercepted when an attack could come from multiple directions, by various methods, and when the Walmingtonians are already probably aware of Spanish finesse with electronic countermeasures?

The missiles use an armoured penetrator, with a small explosive behind it - the attack was meant to hit his escorting ships, not his capital warships. I have no missiles that can penetrate his capital warships that can be fired from a fighter - I'd doubt that an exocet could sink his warships. On the evasion thing, I simply used the nature of a long range air to air missiles, which tend to glide towards their targets, which is why they are such great killers for fighters and AWACs, but not so much for fighters - nevertheless, I will increase losses. If you fired at that 80 kms range, then assume the missiles were already dropped from the Rafaels.

The missiles are using the same guidance as the TASM, which is a variant of the Tomahawk cruise missile, and is rather accurate agaisnt warships.

I'll change my post later. And I apologies for my ... rash... response. I had just woke up and I went to the NS Draftroom and there's someone on there [hurtful thoughts] who likes to pick arguments... I'll change my post later. :)

Well, the Sea Harrier 4s launched missiles at 80km from the Rafales, but they themselves were some distance from the fleet, but, all right, no point crossing more wires in trying to re-edit-re-edits.

The Storm Shadow are [term for, 'launched in the general direction of'] and radar homing variants, then? Developed by Spain/France? I think the main problem this presents for the Walmingtonian fleet is... oh, well, I'll write about it in character.

The Meteors, I think that their control system being highly advanced, sustainer being more modern and efficient, and the fact of... what's the term? Sort of... variable thrust, you know, for cruise and attack, endurance and control, well, that this is what makes it different from traditional long-range missiles. From our point of view it isn't so much a long-range missile as the first of a new generation in standard BVRAAMs.

I think that I'm fleeling some discomfort at essentially claiming in a few areas to have the very best in the world, and to be introducing the wave of the future. But I see it really as Bull's legacy, and as... what Britain has been doing with her time and money while France and Spain were making anti-ship missiles out of Storm Shadow, and France was building massive numbers of battleships along with also cruisers, submarines, and carriers, and expending her resources instead on the raising, mobilisation, and deployment of multiple large armies, the design and building of modern forts, and so on. Instead of that, Britain has developed new missiles and fleet-defence ships, and improved carrier aviation. Now, granted, we're also building battleships, but we're still behind France and Roycelandia in that field. And Australasia, for that matter! The war is of course changing things, but that's only days or weeks old for us, I think, and our hope is that we've made the right choice by spending years on science more than material, if that makes sense? Hoping that we can catch-up in size more easily than France can catch up in technology (in implementing it in its large standing forces).

Ah, I'm rambling, that was far more concise in my head, when I was sipping my tea.

I think the term you're looking for as far as 'launch in general direction of target' is "Dumbfire". Woah, my little flashing bar thing is freaking out and flashing like 8 zillion times a second. My eyes hurt.

Anyway, Walmington, the edit feature is your friend. And I have issues with Hurtful Thoughts too... wonder where he got his name. Ramble ramble.

Actually, the point is to ask Mac if he'd prefer me to switch my invasion plan to somewhere else (YUGOSLAVIA) or to appoint someone as his stand-in while he's gone.

Not radar. THe TASM uses a DSMAC guidance system, or Digital Scene Matching Area Correlation; I'm not aware of it using radar. I will have to edit tomorrow; I spent more time than I originally thought I would spend out tonight.

Not radar. THe TASM uses a DSMAC guidance system, or Digital Scene Matching Area Correlation; I'm not aware of it using radar.

Isn't that what won't work? You can't take a picture of the ocean and expect to navigate by it later.

Missile: "Okay, I've got to look for a wavetip fifteen feet above the base of a trough with twenty-eight feet before the next tip, which is two feet lower than the first, and extends seven fewer feet to the northeast. Dude, I totally don't see it [crash]"

Okay, had an intense saturday, still nothing to turn out IC. As my ma mere alwayas says though "If your not going to do it right, dont do it at all." And I will not throw together just a slap dash post, especially when all the war is at such a critical juncture, especially. However, look to see the mighty Sun King Louis-Auguste rebuff his overconfident Anglo-Anglo enemies on the marrows sunny dawn. Thank you all for your continued patience and understanding. If anybody asks for an OOC break for two days or some such, I think they are perfectly entitled to it.

And people, fine, I need to link the Exocet as well, since you all have such a, excuse me, damned unfavorable, opinion of everything French. An Exocet can easily, in number, take out a ship or ships respectivley.

And Ive made it clear through many posts that France has a formidable R&D program,and the economic context that makes it possible.

And Wingert, mon ami, when will you post!

Not radar. THe TASM uses a DSMAC guidance system, or Digital Scene Matching Area Correlation; I'm not aware of it using radar. I will have to edit tomorrow; I spent more time than I originally thought I would spend out tonight.

I'm not sure how that would happen - the original TERCOM reported difficulties during Gulf War I because there was a lack of landmarks in the desert to follow.

Well, I've also read accurate hits with the TASM...not really sure then. Can we just assume that the necessary changes were made, since there's not much information I can find on the TASM?

I use a variety of sources to form my opinion of the Exocet, but it's primarily based on performance in combat throughout its life. Accounts of the Falkands War from To Rule the Waves, a book, hold that not one Exocet that hit British vessels exploded. Wikipedia (flinch) has other accounts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet#History).

Obviously, your move to take the safeties off of yours will cause most of them to explode when they hit. In that vein, I launched a rather large missile strike right after yours, which you didn't exactly RP. Uh... what gives?

EDIT: Added significantly to the military factbook on the offsite forums. Now includes general naval dispositions and the Australasian MBT.

Australasian Military Forces (http://s9.invisionfree.com/NS_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=264).

I've got a major bone to pick with you, NG. Two words: Suicide Bombers. First off, where did they come from?! If the Beninese militiamen are doing anything, they are not throwing themselves from "the trees" onto French armored vehicles! There's obscenely more sensible and more effective militia bands mounting hit-and-run attacks on the logistical columns that such a large mechanized force needs for its very survival, and yet the only losses the French take are when suicide bombers jump out of trees!

I don't know what you think, NG, but these guys aren't idiots. At least, a lot of them aren't. If the Lavragerians, a thousand times crazier than the Beninese, didn't resort to suicide bombings, what makes you think the Oueme Militia Levy would be inclined to strap-on explosives vests and leap onto Leclercs when they've got plenty of good assault rifles and bullets? And unless one of these suicide bombers manages to get somehow underneath a French tank, any sensible amount of explosives isn't liable to do much damage at all.

I understand that you haven't had all the time in the world to devote to NS lately, and there's nothing wrong with that, but that part gave me a particularly bad feeling.

Apologies, I had no idea you felt so strongly.

I took the inspiration from a quote made by Igomo earlier, urging the natives to assume such manuevers.

If I overstepped ::graceful bow:: disregard it and state so here and I will simply amend it to enemy rocket fire being the cause of their destruction.

I am off now, but as I said, amends are done.

I was trying to say your succeeding against logistical targets, thats where you would succeed. I guess I spiced it up too much. Lemme know what to do, and tis done.

He's back! Hope things are going well for you, NG. On the other hand... *goes to find Mac*

YOU, sir, have a large number of missiles headed for your King. Well, not specifically. But at Lisbon, anyway. Don't you just love submarines?

Weeeellll then after 2 days tryign to catch up with everything i think i am getting somewhere close to parity.

As for StormShadow/ Scalp EG as a anti shipping weapon well it is a bit iffy but there are ways around the limitations, either you stick in a proper targeting radar (on the tomahawk issue the TASM giudance is very unclear but i have seen pics which defiantly show it as having an forward pointing radar seaker as opposed to the down looking ground mapping system) or you do the elcheapo thing and stick a data link in and feed it a cosntant stream of GPS target updates like the USAF are doing with thier anti shipping JDAMs launched from B-52s and B-1s although without a JSTARS or big martime surveilance aircraft to assume hand off weapons control things might get a little complciated for the launch aircraft crew who would need to keep a constant lock on the target.

Gurguvungunit: Those tales of failed exocets are from the early 1980s i woudla ssume that sicne then reliability has been imporved, IIRC those version used by the Argintinians were early Block Is where as in RL we are on Block IV or V.



Now the question is what can Strathdonia do?

Help ECOWAS!

...and get horribly mauled by the French.

The Question would be how. i am busy tryign to find an Air route from Strathdonia, Are Chad and Niger involved?

If i can fly stuff through thier airspace and persade the ANP/African Commonwealth to let me refeul at thier bases then we might be in business. I'm not sure if we could get enough troops into the area to make a difference and tanks other than the sherridans and shermans would be right out but what we can provide is a stream of belfasts, hercs, K101Fs and Cn235s loaded with 7.62x51mm ammo, FN-FALs, Milans, Javelins and RPGs.

Actually with ANP help we might juts be able to lift a Dragoon divsion in IF we can find enough allied transports...

The biuld up to that sort of operation would expalin Strathdonias relative quiteness till now...

Don't underestimate Strathdonia, now ;) They've got about thirteen million people, which is... uhm, well, it's more than Lavrageria had, heh. And we've never really seen them angry. Maybe it's like what happens when you poke a Canadian and it turns out to be a bear.

Niger is in ECOWAS, right? Chad is not, I think, but as a former French colony they've got everything to lose.

I think that following our Mozambique "aquisitions" our population jumped to about 15-17 million. A sizable Strathdonian deployment might bolster ECOWAS's resistance somewhat essepcailly if we could get ANP support. But i realise that a whole divsion might be pushing it a little too far and even a brigade might be a stretch.

Oh while i remeber what about those french islands about 300km to the south east si that sort of action still on?

Okay, Gurg. I have a bone to pick now.

A total of 120 Exocet missiles, 50 or so of them Heavier Mark II's directly targetting the Stormhawk solamente launched from bombers, were launched at your fleet, and only one destroyer gets hit?

Meanwhile, fighters sneak past one of the best satellite and radar networks in the nautical world to a fleet expecting an attack and with 44 Rafales in an aerial umbrella ready to attack.

Im not bitter here, but I think that needs to be adjusted to bit. Neither am I accusing you of moding, rather I think you just jumped a bit too quick.

Hey NG, I seem to remember dear G-man here launching a sizable ASM strike on your fleet, which I don't think was RPd. If you're using sensible Exocets against each other, the fleets must be under 200km from one another, and while I don't know what exactly those Australasian missiles correspond to, if it were BrahMos-armed IN ships the French would be in for some trouble.

Indeed he did, in the same post I have a problem with.

I am going to respond to that of course, but not before we sort this out.

Oh yeah? Huh? 'Cause I've got a bone to pick with you, punk! [/bandwagon]

No, LRR's right. In the post immediately following your first missile strike, I responded in kind, which you missed. It's okay though, redoing it would be a pain. So only if you want to. It's here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11156656&postcount=74), at the beginning of the 4th paragraph. And that bit about the cruise missiles flying with the Outback V ASMs, pretend that was 'a tad behind'. It was late, and I was trying to churn something out IIRC.

As for your 120+ missiles, they were split between Godfrey and Stormhawk, as you say. I'm afraid I misread, seeing 'nearly' rather than 'over' half a hundred. Still, though... the Exocet 2 shows up just fine and dandy on RADAR, and is as susceptible as anything else is to an Aster-15. Now, as I stated in the post, a squadron of fighters was dispatched to deal with it, armed rather unconventionally with the Aster-15. Each fired two or so missiles, which takes out half of your incoming flight. Also note; lengthening your Exocet will cause it to move more slowly, pretty much no matter how you slice it. Range is, in this case, the trade-off for speed. It can't come out of anywhere else and still leave the Exocet a viable missile. Even mounting a bigger engine means that you'll be going slower, size only does so much. Unless you mount a crazy big engine which would make it impossible to launch from underwing.

Now, the other half was fairly easily dealt with by the RAM missiles off of my destroyer/cruiser screen.

Moving on to the main attack, the one launched from the First Fleet. I'll credit you, I did overstate there ... I'll knock out/sink some other ship. Not the Stormhawk, though. You won't be getting me that easily. After all, your main strike was spread out around my fleet.

The fighters. Sattelites don't really broadcast real-time like that, they take pictures IIRC which you can download and print. Now, fighters move fast, and you'd need to reorient your sattelite to follow them pretty closely, and even with precision cameras a blue-grey, fast moving ~18 metre long object is tought to follow.

These fighters are RADAR stealthed, so much so that they mount less weapons than even the F-22. As I say IC, they would show up in strobing, inconsistent patterns. Coupled with a constant missile barrage, one of which is around 80 missiles all told followed by a constant stream of anti-ship missiles, no radar op is going to be staring at some ghost in the outer range of his RADAR. Now, you can easily RP that some patrol caught them after launching the missiles, at which point the flight lit up like Christmas. But I'll throw that before the peanut gallery; if they say that the fighters were stepping over the line, we can redo that. Just don't expect the Rafale to top the AS-12, 'cause at anything BVR you'll barely see me to get missile locks. Once we close, you and I will be even, though. I'm not going to change anything until we reach some kind of decision, if that's amenable to everyone.

I hope all this bone-picking can be laid to rest. It's terribly bad for the bones. [/lame pun]

MAC?! Where are you? I can't wait to see what happened in Lisbon!

Edit: Actually, another bone to pick. The Aborigine is a precision guided missile. It does not go off course and hit a hospital, when it aims for a power plant. I assume that like most modern cities, Toulon does not keep its powerplants in the city itself, but has power brought in from other places. Water pumping stations and purification plants are usually near the sea, rather than next to train stations. Saying that my missile hit a block of houses is equally unlikely, unless these people live right next to a sewage treatment centre.

I guess I object to the portrayal of my attack as a random spamming of missiles. It was carefully targetted, and even if one missile went off course and hit, say, a school, the rest would likely find their targets. That the seven which got through almost universally hit targets to cause moral outrage is sort of excessive, no?

To be clear: Australasia is at war with Louis-Auguste. Not the French people. While we won't be like the Americans in Iraq and wage a 'hearts and minds' campaign, and civilian deaths will occur, we seek to minimize them.

Quite right about that response, or lack of, earlier...I'll tend to that in the previous post as I deal with the second in the first.

be forewarned however, French interceptor technology wouldnt be far behind your own, so looks like well have a missile slug fest with relativley few making it throught the anti missile missiles and CIWIS systems, which I certainly do not oppose.

The second strike ill deal with in the next post, whew, so much is going on, as well as dealing with the fighters. Whew again.

Indeed. But it's better than closing to gun range. Now that would suck. At least for me.

A few quick queries, given that Polisario is about to join the Africans-crushed-by-superior-monarchist-forces club...

First and most importantly, it would help to know just where the Moroccans are attacking and with what... the Berm line is a front of almost 3,000 kilometres, a lot of ground with varied defensive responses.

Second, what is the current situation in Mauritania, given Moroccan buildups, League assaults on ECOWAS, and Saharawi flitting about the north without much respect for borders?

Thirdly, Hindustan is the primary backer of the Polisario Front, and the only major source of the modern military gear that the SADR has been begging for through both the first (UE-backed) buildup and this most recent one. Since they're going to have to start expending the stuff soon, it would help to know just what might have been given to them.

Finally, SADR settlements in RL are supported in no small part by foreign NGOs, and in an AMW context Saharawi needs have only intensified. The INU is there of course, but I'm wondering if Quinntonian missionary/aid groups have the same sort of presence in the Western Sahara as US faith-based organizations do in RL.

Bah, time to float our Hound out of Libya and see if we remembered to re-caulk the leaks...

Quinntonia does indeed have a massive missionary presense in teh region, all over the continent, really.

WWJD
Amen.

The Polisarios would have around a dozen AT.18 ATGWs, similar in some respects to the Milan but with pretty fearsome penetration, so with those they won't have any trouble hitting Moroccan M60s and the lot. Added to that are mabye eight 75/105mm super-high velocity antitank guns, which can also destroy nothing less than any operational tank. I think the Polisario front has a handful of AML-90s too, but I'm not exactly sure what use they'll be.

Then there's mabye three dozen or so MANPADs, mostly SA-14/19s. Besides that there are of course plenty of AKMs, RPG-7s, RPG-29s, PKMs, ZU-23s and the range of USSR-origin small arms.

Wow, dear Lord, there is sooo much going on. Still, it keeps AMW busy non?

Ill be around later tonight, when I get energy to churn out another of these grueling posts.

And FYI Britain and Australasian, remeber peace is in you power, Ive offered the branch many times now. All I want is bloody Africa, but if someone attacks the homesoil of the motherland then they express a desire for escalating and total war.

In the end, communist revolutions may overthrow all our governments if
you all are not careful.

Au revoir!

Hey, Walmington was the one trying to avert that. We got discouraged from kicking you and Roycelandia in the Pacific, when we had the chance... and now we're regretting it! I think maybe the ship sailed for the League being seen as peacemakers in Europe when they burned Gibraltar and invaded Portugal.


As to the Polisario: BG has never been as involved as its people might have liked, but it's safe to assume that some political and military liasons are in country, and some 7.62x39mm ammunition will have been provided down the years (in reality I gather that ammunition is a bigger problem than armaments, or would be if they were currently fighting, though I suppose the influx of people made guns a relative rarity, too).

As for peace: Read the speech by Strathairn. No peace, not ever. Maybe not outright war, but so long as France is a monarchy Australasia'll be opposing it diplomatically, economically, politically and sometimes militarily. Your ICBMs guaranteed that. Think, if you will, of Cold War America v. Soviets. Not always shooting, but always ready to. BTW, I'm curious about the relative sizes of our nations. You're more militarized than I am, but our nation sizes are roughly the same, no? That means that given enough time, Australasia could reach the same level of production and manpower that France has?

So, the verdict is that the missile strike and the fighters were okay, it was my response to your shipboard missiles that was too much? Whew indeed.

Theoretically. In WWII, though, Japan was slightly larger than Germany, and substantially larger than France or Britain (though excluding the empires), and Italy was slightly bigger than France, but those nations never got war production up to the levels of the other nations. I think that Canada probably produced tanks enough to match Japan and Italy combined, and was more than ten times smaller than the two together.

Of course the economic systems and circumstances were different, but they'll be different to each other in our cases, too.

The Indian Soviets are a good way into a build-up started way back in the early days of HL imperialism and the last bouts of Roycelandian expansion, and we've still hardly got three quarters of one percent of the population equipped and ready in the armed services. Of course that means a lot more when you've 412 million people in your country. Our production boom is likely to be amongst the greatest on paper, since we've been cruising along at a low base, most people working a few hours a day, a few days a week. For the duration of the war, most people serve not by joining the military but by putting in a more normal Asian work day, boosting production while the Civil Service takes over a measure of central planning, which will be super so long as the war doesn't go on for a generation, by which time the boom will have gone and yadayada bad. Anyway, time to strip-mine Jharkhand.

I dunno about everyone else's nations, but, yeah, I can only assume that Australasian and other militarisation will increase substantially on looking at the League and seeing that most of its nations have already over a whole percent of their populations under arms.

Yeah, Australasia isn't really geared to massive production or supporting a wartime economy, it's a nation whose economy is pretty similar to RL Canada, (US, but without some of the problems stemming from having an undereducated populace, etc). It can't hold its own with France right now, but give it a few years. A motivated populace is a powerful thing, really.

A few quick queries, given that Polisario is about to join the Africans-crushed-by-superior-monarchist-forces club...

First and most importantly, it would help to know just where the Moroccans are attacking and with what... the Berm line is a front of almost 3,000 kilometres, a lot of ground with varied defensive responses.

Second, what is the current situation in Mauritania, given Moroccan buildups, League assaults on ECOWAS, and Saharawi flitting about the north without much respect for borders?

Thirdly, Hindustan is the primary backer of the Polisario Front, and the only major source of the modern military gear that the SADR has been begging for through both the first (UE-backed) buildup and this most recent one. Since they're going to have to start expending the stuff soon, it would help to know just what might have been given to them.
.

1. Sorry about that post, i wasnt aware there was a Polisario Player.
2. Im striking in three spearheads, one onto the Caprivi Strip, the other towards the Polisario Heartlands in the East of Western Sahara (where alot of Polisario refugees are living in RL)
3. Mauretania is next on the list.

Theoretically. In WWII.......

I think that Canada probably produced tanks enough to match Japan and Italy combined, and was more than ten times smaller than the two together.

Of course the economic systems and circumstances were different, but they'll be different to each other in our cases, too.

Maybe not the best example, I totaly agree with you there, but in all real honesty of course. If Canada built around.... ummm..... a tank they would produce more than Japan.

No, not really but Japan was focused more on it's high seas fleet and they never felt the need for anything more than about a division of tanks. Which was actually quite good because the little islands which Japan controlled would have made any tank formations uneffective. There reaches a certain point that if you are diverting ships away that use more fuel than the actual tanks you are fueling than its obviously wasteful. Which Japan never did, thankfully.

Italy, was on the same boat -pardon the pun- because the whole "Italian Lake" idea actually needed some ships to go along. That's what Italy practiced and never had as much production facilities as any other major European power, most tanks were sent in the form of German divisions -think "Erwin Rommel"- or German tanks to be manned by Italians.

The last point, was the numbers in tanks produced? Because the Sherman tank was a sad little thing only able to help out infantry, small, easy to produce, and quite poor against any German model, which is big, heavy, harder to produce, but were significantly better. If the stas were changed with every Tiger, Panther, and whatnot getting 5 points per-tank Italy would have jumped a few steps ahead.

Generally, I get what you mean and agree. It just gets harder to sort out what nations will accept -happily- a draft call of 5% or higher -Nazi Germany- and will accept rationing, help the war effort out in anyway they can -Great Britain, 1940s- or will hate the draft, make a new cultural movement, adobt peace signs, burn draft cards, be violent and unproductive like Vietnam America.

Oh well, I would take the tentive proposal that Australasia citizens will happily join the draft and accept the governments calls for rationing and whatnot. The citizens have seen only good things coming from their Uncle Sam; a good economy, keeping their noses out of their stuff (which would be important to a country which descended from colonists, who historically leave the motherland to start out on their own), successful war(s), competent day to day actions, and national pride in having mastered two continents. Pretty much what the government says they should happily say "They only ask when they need it, havn't asked for much in a good bit". So I wuld give out the answer that they would accept the draft and rationing -if you would want to put any in place-.

That's just my ramblings, commis everwhere accept the rule of the government since childhood so I would think the same -the endline at least-for Beth Gellert.

Just some mad mutterings of a mind with way to much on its time. Disregard or read through it carefully, I don't care so you don't need to either.

With the West Saharan player and Spizania, I didn't know someone even controlled West Sahara and though it was un-incorporated anyhow. Oh well, don't worry Spizania, not a lot of people actually care one way or the other.

I'm kinda curious. Was Royce I in on the missile attack?

Edit: Not sure if I was being clear: The question was to satisfy my personal curiosity rather than to give me information for RP. Also, is the thread dead? *pokes*

Maaaac?

Nope, someone with no reason to be here is still here -me-.

I can assure you that the Missile attack came as a complete surprise both OOC and IC- I wasn't in on it OOC, and Royce I wasn't in on it IC.

Mmm, just curious. Even if you had been, it wouldn't have bothered me. Well, might have disturbed me a bit, seeing as how we've been co-operating on some things. But it wouldn't have BOTHERED me. So, I think I'm just going to edit my last military post and sink a cruiser. Then, when NG gets back, he can go ahead and RP without having to discuss this. Am I right in assuming that the fighters are okay as they are? *points to previous page for those curious*

EDIT: Done.

Sorry for the double post, but I thought this merited its own little grey box. I sort of feel like 'Iron West' is too big. We have attacks on Buenos Aires, Accra and Toulon in the same thread, naval actions happening on both sides of the world, at least six fronts (counting those at sea) and speeches left, right and centre.

Why not split this off into two threads, one for Europe (France, the Atlantic, Britain etc) and one for Africa? Iron Sea and Dark Continent, perhaps? It'd give us the ability to easily distinguish where things are happening, (I know I get mixed up a bit and have to reread now and again) and there'll be less happening in both threads; give those among us with busier schedules less to re-read if they're only posting in one. Now, for those of us like myself and NG who are active in both, it wouldn't change much. But I'm sure LRR, Lusaka, BG, Mac if he gets back and China would be glad to not read through mammoth posts about stuff that doesn't matter to them.

Just an idea, post your opinions.

Yes definitely.

Here's the pacific thread.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11260012#post11260012

1. Sorry about that post, i wasnt aware there was a Polisario Player.
2. Im striking in three spearheads, one onto the Caprivi Strip, the other towards the Polisario Heartlands in the East of Western Sahara (where alot of Polisario refugees are living in RL)
3. Mauretania is next on the list.

Would it be possible to get some numbers/composition info on the respective spearheads, as well as forces remaining on the berm?

For reference, the Polisario Orbat is given below:

SADR Order of Battle

1st Region
Headquarters: Zoug
Commander: Mohamed Ali Sidi Al Bachir
1st Battalion – 90 infantry (AKM), 30 infantry (AKM, RPG-29), 12 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted), 10 Land Rover (80mm mortar mounted).
2nd Battalion -- 90 infantry (AKM), 30 infantry (AKM, RPG-29), 22 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted).
3rd Battalion – 100 infantry (camel, AKM), 20 infantry (camel, AKM, RPG-7)
4th Battalion – 100 infantry (camel, AKM), 20 infantry (camel, AKM, RPG-7)
5th Battalion – 180 infantry (AKM), 30 infantry (AKM, RPG-7), 30 infantry (PKM)
6th Battalion – 5 fuel trucks, 5 water trucks, various support companies, generally armed with AKM rifles, along with specialized equipment. While Polisario has declared an end to its use of landmines, disposal of the stockpiles at Zoug is still incomplete.
1st Reserve Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Reserve Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Reserve Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
1st Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
4th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
5th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
6th Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
7th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
8th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
9th Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
1st Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Youth Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
4th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
5th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
6th Youth Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)

2nd Region
Headquarters: Tifariti
Commander: Brahim Bedileh
1st Battalion – 20 T-55 MBT, 90 infantry (AKM), 30 infantry (AKM, RPG-29), 22 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted).
2nd Battalion – 20 BMP-1 APC, 80 infantry (AKM), 20 infantry (PKM), 20 infantry (AKM, RPG-7)
3rd Battalion – 5 BM-21 Katyoshka rocket systems, 5 122mm howitzer artillery pieces, 4 75/105mm super-high velocity AT guns, 6 infantry (AKM, AT.18 ATGW), 14 infantry (AKM, RPG-29), 20 infantry (AKM, RPG-7), 80 infantry (AKM), 22 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted).
4th Battalion – 16 ZSU-23 AA guns, 6 infantry (AKM, SA-14 MANPADS), 34 infantry (AKM, RPG-7), 80 infantry (AKM), 22 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted).
5th Battalion – 16 BRDM-2 (3x SAM-7 mounted) 6 infantry (AKM, SA-14 MANPADS), 34 infantry (AKM, RPG-7), 80 infantry (AKM), 22 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted).
6th Battalion – 6 fuel trucks, 6 water trucks, various support companies, generally armed with AKM rifles, along with specialized equipment.
1st Reserve Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Reserve Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Reserve Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
1st Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
4th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
5th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
6th Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
7th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
8th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
9th Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
1st Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Youth Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
4th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
5th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
6th Youth Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)

3rd Region
Headquarters: Mijeh
Commander: Biadillah Ibrahim (Krikaou)
1st Battalion – 90 infantry (AKM), 30 infantry (AKM, RPG-29), 12 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted), 10 Land Rover (80mm mortar mounted).
2nd Battalion -- 90 infantry (AKM), 30 infantry (AKM, RPG-29), 22 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted).
3rd Battalion – 100 infantry (camel, AKM), 20 infantry (camel, AKM, RPG-7)
4th Battalion – 100 infantry (camel, AKM), 20 infantry (camel, AKM, RPG-7)
5th Battalion – 180 infantry (AKM), 30 infantry (AKM, RPG-7), 30 infantry (PKM)
6th Battalion – 5 fuel trucks, 5 water trucks, various support companies, generally armed with AKM rifles, along with specialized equipment.
1st Reserve Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Reserve Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Reserve Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
1st Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
4th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
5th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
6th Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
7th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
8th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
9th Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
1st Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Youth Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
4th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
5th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
6th Youth Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)

4th region
Headquarters: Meres
Commander: Abdellah Ould Moulay Ahmed Baba
1st Battalion – 90 infantry (AKM), 30 infantry (AKM, RPG-29), 12 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted), 10 Land Rover (80mm mortar mounted).
2nd Battalion -- 90 infantry (AKM), 30 infantry (AKM, RPG-29), 22 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted).
3rd Battalion – 100 infantry (camel, AKM), 20 infantry (camel, AKM, RPG-7)
4th Battalion – 100 infantry (camel, AKM), 20 infantry (camel, AKM, RPG-7)
5th Battalion – 180 infantry (AKM), 30 infantry (AKM, RPG-7), 30 infantry (PKM)
6th Battalion – 5 fuel trucks, 5 water trucks, various support companies, generally armed with AKM rifles, along with specialized equipment.
1st Reserve Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Reserve Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Reserve Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
1st Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
4th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
5th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
6th Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
7th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
8th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
9th Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
1st Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Youth Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
4th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
5th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
6th Youth Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)

5th Region
Headquarters: Bir Lahlou
Commander: Omar Sid Ahmed Omar
1st Battalion – 90 infantry (AKM), 30 infantry (AKM, RPG-29), 12 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted), 10 Land Rover (80mm mortar mounted).
2nd Battalion -- 90 infantry (AKM), 30 infantry (AKM, RPG-29), 22 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted).
3rd Battalion – 100 infantry (camel, AKM), 20 infantry (camel, AKM, RPG-7)
4th Battalion – 100 infantry (camel, AKM), 20 infantry (camel, AKM, RPG-7)
5th Battalion – 180 infantry (AKM), 30 infantry (AKM, RPG-7), 30 infantry (PKM)
6th Battalion – 5 fuel trucks, 5 water trucks, various support companies, generally armed with AKM rifles, along with specialized equipment.
1st Reserve Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Reserve Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Reserve Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
1st Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
4th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
5th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
6th Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
7th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
8th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
9th Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
1st Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Youth Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
4th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
5th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
6th Youth Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)

6th Region
Headquarters: Sellâourich.
Commander: Ahmed Fal
1st Battalion – 20 T-55 MBT, 90 infantry (AKM), 30 infantry (AKM, RPG-29), 22 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted).
2nd Battalion – 20 BMP-1 APC, 80 infantry (AKM), 20 infantry (PKM), 20 infantry (AKM, RPG-7)
3rd Battalion – 5 BM-21 Katyoshka rocket systems, 5 122mm howitzer artillery pieces, 4 75/105mm super-high velocity AT guns, 6 infantry (AKM, AT.18 ATGW), 14 infantry (AKM, RPG-29), 20 infantry (AKM, RPG-7), 80 infantry (AKM), 22 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted).
4th Battalion – 16 ZSU-23 AA guns, 6 infantry (AKM, SA-14 MANPADS), 34 infantry (AKM, RPG-7), 80 infantry (AKM), 22 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted).
5th Battalion – 16 BRDM-2 (3x SAM-7 mounted) 6 infantry (AKM, SA-14 MANPADS), 34 infantry (AKM, RPG-7), 80 infantry (AKM), 22 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted).
6th Battalion – 6 fuel trucks, 6 water trucks, various support companies, generally armed with AKM rifles, along with specialized equipment.
1st Reserve Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Reserve Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Reserve Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
1st Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
4th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
5th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
6th Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
7th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
8th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
9th Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
1st Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Youth Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
4th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
5th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
6th Youth Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)

7th Region
Headquarters: Bir Lahlou (formerly Tindouf)
Commander: Ould Mohamed Yahdih
1st Battalion – 20 T-55 MBT, 90 infantry (AKM), 30 infantry (AKM, RPG-29), 22 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted).
2nd Battalion – 20 BMP-1 APC (2 AT3 Sagger ATGM mounted), 80 infantry (AKM), 20 infantry (PKM), 20 infantry (AKM, RPG-7).
3rd Battalion – 5 BM-21 Katyoshka rocket systems, 20 infantry (AKM, RPG-29), 20 infantry (AKM, RPG-7), 80 infantry (AKM), 20 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted), 12 Land Rover (80mm mortar mounted).
4th Battalion – 16 ZSU-23-4 SPAA, 6 infantry (AKM, SA-19 MANPADS), 34 infantry (AKM, RPG-7), 80 infantry (AKM), 22 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted).
5th Battalion – 16 BRDM-2 (3x SAM-7 mounted) 6 infantry (AKM, SA-19 MANPADS), 34 infantry (AKM, RPG-7), 80 infantry (AKM), 22 Land Rover (12.7mm MG mounted).
6th Battalion – 48 fuel trucks, 62 water trucks, 188 supply trucks, various support companies, generally armed with AKM rifles, along with specialized equipment.
7th ‘Red’ Battalion - 30 infantry (AN-94, underslung grenade launcher), 10 infantry (Dragunov SVD), 10 commercial SUV.
8th ‘Tindouf’ Battalion – 200 infantry (camel, AKM), 40 infantry (camel, AKM, RPG-7)
9th Battalion - 20 AML-90
1st Reserve Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Reserve Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Reserve Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
1st Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
4th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
5th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
6th Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
7th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
8th Womens Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
9th Womens Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
1st Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
2nd Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
3rd Youth Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
4th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
5th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
6th Youth Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
7th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
8th Youth Battalion – 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)
9th Youth Battalion -- 200 infantry (small arms), 40 infantry (small arms, RPG-7)

Sea Region
Headquarters: Az Zawiya (Libya)
Commander: Brahim Ahmed Sahmud
‘Liberation’ Squadron: 1 Hound class attack submarine.

Border Region
Headquarters: Ain Ben Tili (Mauritania)
Commander: Baba Ould Mohammed Bakhili
1st Battalion – 100 infantry (AKM), 20 infantry (AKM, RPG-7), 30 Land Rover.
2nd Battalion – 100 infantry (camel, AKM), 20 infantry (camel, AKM, RPG-7)

Yeah, there is a lot of things going on so multiple thread would be good.

Uh, how 'bout I make a split-off for Africa. And perhaps Spiz and I can redo the whole 'bomber strike' thing. Once again, I 'jumped the gun', to use NG's phrase. It seems that we ought to do the attack again to be clear, no? *Looks at Saharawi's list* Jeebus.

EDIT: Done. The Africa thread Dark Continent (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=490304) is open. ATTN Spizania.

OOC:
On the Vulcans, why on earth are you using basic giuded bombs? why not Stand off Air launched Cruise missiles, it isn't as if Vulcans haven't historically used stand off missiles (Ok so those were nuclear weapons, but the launch rails were later adapted to fire anti radiation missiles and house big ECM pods during the Black Buck missions).

Now one has to say why on earth are you send bombers without any fighter cover? not to mention a lack of AWACs, unless you were suing soem kind of US stealth style Global strike force no air comander would let his bombers be used that way.

Just a shame you aren't using Crookfur Super Vulcans or Elian ASBs

Why aren't I using cruise missiles? Because this was to be a psychological attack, not a military one. The sound of 20 Vulcans overhead, plus falling bombs, is in my mind more frightening than cruise missiles. ICly, it was an intel foul-up that caused this whole mess. AOIA told my guys that your fighters were all gone. OOCly... I was kinda... drunk.

OOC:
Just a shame you aren't using Crookfur Super Vulcans or Elian ASBs

Or Roycelandian Lancaster IIs... :D

Yeah G-Man, cruise missiles really would have been the way to go. No sense throwing those beauties away in a dumb bomb strike. Its suicide unless you've got either a strong fighter cover or an enemy with slower air defense aircraft.

Myah, alcohol. I hate you sometimes. Perhaps that comes next, although I'd have to get a DDG in range somehow. Or perhaps that doesn't come at all, and I make strikes against the Moroccan attack columns. There's a situation where carpet bombing works just as well. Or, if Spiz decides not to buy my story, nothing at all comes and I just sort of rant and rave about expansionism some more.

Also, they weren't exactly 'dumb bombs'. They were 'precision guided munitions', bombs with limited ability to guide themselves. As in, moveable fins and suchlike.

Or Roycelandian Lancaster IIs... :D

Since When can the Lancaster II use BVRAAMs? or actually dog fight? which both of the designs i mentioned can (well i'm not sure of the Elian design's dog fighting caapbility but i know it has a damned good air to air missile capability and radar set, sicne i put them there).


Now for terror you really need a decent physops aircraft to take over their civilian airwaves...

Myah, alcohol. I hate you sometimes. Perhaps that comes next, although I'd have to get a DDG in range somehow. Or perhaps that doesn't come at all, and I make strikes against the Moroccan attack columns. There's a situation where carpet bombing works just as well. Or, if Spiz decides not to buy my story, nothing at all comes and I just sort of rant and rave about expansionism some more.

Also, they weren't exactly 'dumb bombs'. They were 'precision guided munitions', bombs with limited ability to guide themselves. As in, moveable fins and suchlike.

As in Paveways/JDAMs? you would still get a fair bit off stand off using those weapons (about 5 miles).

[QUOTE=Strathdonia]Since When can the Lancaster II use BVRAAMs? or actually dog fight? which both of the designs i mentioned can (well i'm not sure of the Elian design's dog fighting caapbility but i know it has a damned good air to air missile capability and radar set, sicne i put them there).[QUOTE]

The Lancaster II does have AAMs, as well as gun turrets (as redundant as they really are, it makes the crew feel better).

And we've also got the experimental Lancaster II "Hornet" programme, which involves carrying a small jet fighter in the bomb-bay and releasing it when fighter aircraft are encountered... but perhaps I've said too much. ;)

I think you'll find that such has already been tried, with limited success...and even then, I somehow doubt that a tiny parasite fighter will be able to compete on equal terms with a full-blown air defense fighter. Unless, of course, the Lancaster II is a monster like the B-52 and then you've got more than enough load capacity to spare, but then there's the issue of where to put it, etc. etc. etc.

But G-Man, we all make mistakes I suppose.

I think you'll find that such has already been tried, with limited success...and even then, I somehow doubt that a tiny parasite fighter will be able to compete on equal terms with a full-blown air defense fighter. Unless, of course, the Lancaster II is a monster like the B-52 and then you've got more than enough load capacity to spare, but then there's the issue of where to put it, etc. etc. etc.

OOC: Let him waste money on w/e he wants

Now for terror you really need a decent physops aircraft to take over their civilian airwaves...

Nah, get some sirens attached and add some swatzkas, that'll get the people a'runnin. :p

I think you'll find that such has already been tried, with limited success...and even then, I somehow doubt that a tiny parasite fighter will be able to compete on equal terms with a full-blown air defense fighter. Unless, of course, the Lancaster II is a monster like the B-52 and then you've got more than enough load capacity to spare, but then there's the issue of where to put it, etc. etc. etc.

The Lancaster II is about the same size as the B-52. In effect, it's an Avro Lancaster with jet engines and swept back wings, increased in size to that of a B-52. We'll have to design a new type of parasite fighter (The only thing I can say for certain is that the codename is "Hornet") to go with it, though...

You know...it strikes me that Nova Gaul is only a day shy of deletion. That could present some problems form our RP.

You know...it strikes me that Nova Gaul is only a day shy of deletion. That could present some problems form our RP.
he hopefully has vacation mode on

A bit of a bump, though I understand we can't really advance without the French.

If the Australasians really want to hit Morocco, forget bombing and sieze the stuff they're buying from the Southern Confederacy. They've got to sail pretty much through waters filled with your combat ships already, and I'm sure there's a better use for hundreds of fighters plus tanks than firebombing desert children.

Hah, once you've finished the French in Africa, keep on northward to Rabat. Lets see how they like us building a F$&# wall through THEIR country.

That's the spirit! We'll bring sandbags.

"To Rabat! To Rabat!" chant Unioners outside Parliament House.

"To Moroccan southern border circa 1966!" chant Union diplomats in Baghdad...

Aye, Australasian sea power would be put to good use blockading Morocco, since it seems like the Southern Confederacy has just sold the whole of its airforce Mirage-derivative fleet to Rabat. The question is, though, what do they do in the meantime? I'm sure the Australasians could cope if it was just Pucaras and Pampas in charge of air defense. But I think that is one front of a war that we would do well not to spark quite yet. But when the French are taken care of...

OOC: Is Morocco part of the Holy League? If so, China will be very displeased with the Southern Confederacy.

OOC: I am leaning slightly towards the Holy League but i am not actually siding very much with them, the fact is i cant project my milltary anywhere outside Morocco and Western Sahara at this point, so getting involved in WW3 is not something i really want to do at this point. ( I dont even have the tanker forces to launch a significantly sized counter attack against the bases on the Azores Islands and none of my fighters have the range to get out there carrying any significant weapons load [Its a thousand miles each way])


If the Australasians really want to hit Morocco, forget bombing and sieze the stuff they're buying from the Southern Confederacy. They've got to sail pretty much through waters filled with your combat ships already, and I'm sure there's a better use for hundreds of fighters plus tanks than firebombing desert children.
Hah, once you've finished the French in Africa, keep on northward to Rabat. Lets see how they like us building a F$&# wall through THEIR country.
Those shipments are over for the foreseable future, i wont be buying anything else from the Southern Confederacy any time soon, he has nothing left that i can afford to buy
And if you actually take a look at the thread for my rearmament, you would be ill advised to start a war with me at this point, im heavily enough armed and well enough versed in defensive tactics to make any invasion of my territory cost a huge amount of your blood.
and if you think thats a lot of kit that ive been sold, this is just the beginning, i have massive deals, loans a lend-lease agreement and even a significant aid package ready to go as soon as Space Union and The Silver Sky get approved, we have been plotting :D
A better way of going about getting me to stop in Western Sahara would simply be to pay me to withdraw behind the berm and not launch any more assaults into Polisario Controlled Territory, and for me to stay out of WW3 totally. It avoids all those casualties that would make for rather embarrasing reading in the papers

Shh! Nobody correct the [ridiculously-wrong] Moroccans!

[Glees]

OOC: Unless you have overwhelming firepower, which you cannot safely bring to bear on me until Spain and France are neutralised, a war against Morocco will be long and bloody, there is no other way around it

Heh, well, think what you want.

You can't, though, exactly teleport freighters across the atlantic ocean, right past a major Australasian base area, but by all means do try!

Anyway...I think it has come to the point where we should discuss what to do if NG doesn't return from his almost three week hiatus. Give control of the League to Mac and The Estenlands? Recruit a new France?

The Absence of NG is indeed troubling but no doubt he shall return.

Would i be correct that the WW3 timeline is currently pretty static, with fluid time allowing non related or vaguely related events to carry on as normal.

I am bit a concerned that certain deals seem to be happening awefully quickly, agreements/contracts for heavy or complicated systems generally tends to take months and although conditions can certainly be found where such agreements can be expediated and a certain level of delaing can be "back dated" or "back storied".

One major thign is that aquiring new fighter aircraft is not a quick process even if it is an aircraft already in use and of a similar version of said aircraft. Any new aircraft involves trnaing of loads of new personnel, not just aircrew but ground crew as well.

Of course these issues could already be dealt with and i could be talking out of my behind again...


As for conflcits, well it will be interesting to see how thigns go when the BG lead fleet arrives in the ECOWAS nations...

Yeah, Morroco, you need to take into account that all of those purchases that you have been making are not quite there yet, as they have to be assembled by the SC and then shipped through very troubled and militarised waters. I think that allowing a very HL leaning nation to arm themselves in that way at this time would be foolish, and I am sure that Australasia would move to intervene.

And BTW, you seem to be at the whole “writing a cheque with your mouth that your nation can’t cash thing, again.”

WWJD
Amen.

Im currently crash diving my economy into the ground, its not something i can keep up for much longer, but i wont need to.

Well, that does not appear to be the case, Strath. From all that I've seen, its just a matter of asking for the stuff and then getting it. Perhaps these deals are being conducted via TG, but you guys really need to be public about that stuff.

As Strath said earlier, the induction of a new type of fighter aircraft is by no means a simple process. You've got, first of all, to deal with the fact that Morocco has mabye a few dozen qualified jet pilots and from the looks of it you're buying hundreds of Mirages. Ground crews need to be trained as well, and then there's the issue of spare parts, airport infrastructure, and armament. And that's assuming the purchases get there in time to be of any use. You'll still need to wait for the Southern Confederacy to actually withdraw the hardware from service or build it, pack it, and ship it, a process that could take quite a while by itself.

So yeah, when you do these aircraft deals and the lot, document it and put it out in public so that, when you claim so many aircraft and so many tanks, it can be verified and legitimized. Things need to be a bit more detailed than they currently seem to be. Or else it seems really fishy that Morocco, often having not publically announced purchases, is suddenly being furnished with a gigantic military. Really, really fishy in fact.

But again, if you want to blow all your government's money on defense equipment and watch all of it fall into disrepair once you can't afford to pay for the upkeep, or military wages, by all means do so. AMW isn't necessarily about being the power, after all, but rather about doing something interesting and fun with your country.

I already asked in the IC thread, but I'm-a need both Jean and Mac's fleet dispositions in the Mediterranean sea, and those of other HL nations that I'm at war with by proxy, or anyone else that might be attacking the Island Fleet.

Also, I'd like to get an idea of how detectable our fighters are. Obviously, both Rafales and AS-12/17s are built to be difficult to detect. My fighters are on par with the F/A-22/35 respectively, as it seems are the Harrier IVs.

Since we're going to have air combat soon, I'd like to have this worked out. I've seen pages (can't find them just now, I'll try harder if you want to see them) that compared the F-22 and Rafale as far as stealth/combat ability. I think that the F-22 came out on top in every respect except turn radius, where the Rafale's wing shape gave it the advantage. The F-22 always got off the first shot at beyond visual range combat (BVR) and usually, but not always, scored a kill.

Now, I'm not EXACTLY sure how my fighter compares to the F-22. It's a tad weaker in the Thrust/Weight ratio area; but still enough to outdo the Rafale. The AS-12 has 4D thrust vectoring and canards, which make it absurdly maneuverable but prone to breaking, in which case it becomes around equal to the Rafale (perhaps a bit less). More details can be found on the offsite forums. Radar cross section is probably the same as the F-22's, since I rounded off everything I could and bent what I couldn't at a not-right angle, in addition to covering it with anti-radar paint.

It's been a good war so far. Everyone's writing is very nice, and the combat is complex and cerebral. Nice going all.


Okay let me say somehting about this AS-12. The 4D thrust vecotring will be very hard to 'mask' as in make stealthy, the JSF has the same problem. From the back this thing would light up on radar. And there is more to stealth than just rounding off the edges, things are specifically shaped to deflect radar waves away from the source. And anti-radar paint. Any paint that is radar absorbing will not be as effective as the RAM and composities the F-22 is made out of. Paint just doesnt have the thivkness to be effective enough. And the Rafale is not that exciting the Typhoon and F-22 beat it out of the water. The Rafale is nothing more than an advanced 4.5 generation fighter.

The only thing the Rafale has going for it is the ARC system it has. But any fighter equiped with a AESA radar will easily defeat this.

On the recent Moroccan arms deals, I'm of the opinion that the establishment of production facilities/shipment of equipment/training of crew which has been posted about here and there ought be considered irrelevant for the current conflict. Such deals were arranged AFTER Moroccan forces launched an assault into the SADR, an invasion which occured at the same time as League attacks on ECOWAS, which happened themselves simultaneous to Spanish attacks on Portugal and the Gibraltar.

As the League offensive doesn't seem to have progressed more than a few weeks time-wise, there has hardly been time to arrange for contracts, let alone accomplish all the neccessary groundwork and transfer.

You're not really working from an accurate description of the AS-12. What I meant by 'rounding off the edges' and so forth was essentially that it had been computer modelled, tested and retested to return as small a radar cross section as possible. It is made out of RAM composites. It is ALSO coated in paint, although that is something of overkill.

The F-22 has a sort of waffling in its thrust vector system that helps mask the jetstream, I assume that my own fighter has a similar design. That being said, I have for some time been considering changing 4D to 2D, which I've heard reduces the complexity of the engine (obviously) and helps mask the jetstream.

The point of the comparison was to ascertain what I could reasonably roleplay in an air-duel with Nova Gaul, whose fighter wings fly Rafales and Mirage-2000s. What I've found is that I can expect the edge in such fights, but his pilots are purported to be excellent. So not that much of an edge.

And yes, it has AESA radar.

I think that we can safely say that nothing passes the Mediterranean sea flying a Holy League flag in great numbers. The largest of the Australasian fleets is sitting somewhere off of southern Italy, and there are patrols of aircraft and corvettes everywhere that they can realistically go. Since we don't know the outcome of the Battle of Gibraltar yet, I can't tell you if France can pass traffic around the outside of the Iberian Peninsula.

SC's shipments... are complex in nature. I don't have any appreciably large naval force in South America, just a few PT boats, cutters and a destroyer or two. I think that the local flagship is a command cruiser (which is useless for anything outside of C&C, mounting maybe an anti-ship missile launcher and an RAM or two). So while I will strongly encourage him not to ship to Morocco, I can't really enforce it right now. As it stands, I'm the weaker of the two of us as far as presence in South America is concerned, if push came to shove I wouldn't be able to hold him off for long at all.

Excellent perhaps at downing cannon-armed Alpha Jets and L-29s, not so excellent against modern air superiority fighters...

Well, that is the hope, yes. By the way, do you have a nation in AMW that I'm not aware of? Even after hanging around here for a few months now, I'm always seeing new people crawling out from the woodwork.

TCB plays what remains of Mozambique that hasn't been annexed by Strathdonia or rebbeled to form the Free State.

He is also another major AMW player in digiuse

Hey, Im back. Several problems.

First, you guys did HUGE amounts of fleet movements while I could not respond to them, IE: I am on pause for a good month or three IC and you set up posistions. That is simply not fair I think, this goes for China, BG, LRR.

I want to thank Australasia, really. He and I and Wal and in a big naval dance right now where each post is absolutly critical and they had the courtesy from making huge leaps while I was gone.

China ought go back to the canal, LRR to Mumbai, and BG to Portmeiron, excepting the smaller forces LRR sent earlier when I was active. I know war makes people eager, but that was very ill played out I think.

I have to do a mega post on the issue of the fleets deal, and I have to play Spain until he gets back too from what I hear. I will do my best till Mac gets back, and I know something of it, but will not of course be able to fill it in with the depth of my IC France.

So dont rush things please, which you honestly did. Now, I know you didnt know I would be AWOL for over a month, and so a ten day absence seemed reasonable to post actions in, save when you find out the ten days is 55. The only people who have had time to engage, and they have, is the brits and Australasia, and them only with a smaller fleet.

Thanks very much, my next post will specifically deal with the naval battle and then French African offensive, with a minor bit of Spanish stuff. I know you guys want in on it bad, but I am only one man, and am getting beat up by 12 people. Gracias por su co-operacion!

Just to go over a point Saharawi made earlier, this has only been a few weeks campaign. There has been no time for such quick deployments to certain posistions, while the HL powers (Spain IRL too even from us) laid their plans and built. Before all this, we had you all distracted and deployed in Africa, and the cost of the effort of diversion there did not outweight the juggernaut phases of the African of Iberian offensives. This was a really rather well executed Blitzkrieg.

Most of the Soviet fleet sailed from Zanzibar, and is currently off Namibia, "liasing with SWAPO" in official parlance. It will not arrive in West Africa until probably some weeks after the start of Franco-ECOWAS hostilities.

Australasia, Id say you only control the Eastern Med, and per my earlier comments you havent passed through the canal yet, or at least havent if we are being fair here. We are only several days into combat IC after all.

There is a French fleet south of Sicily above Algeria that secures the east while the Franco/Spanish forces control the west. Not to mention you dbe raked by HL airpower trying to pass anywhere past Sicily. Please dont rush, and thanks again.

It's meant to be a kind of 'fluid time' thing, if you will. For example, at the time of the fleet battle (I'm calling it the Battle of Madeira, if that works for you. There's already a Battle of Cape St. Vincent, after all) the Island fleet is just entering the canal. Obviously, Australasia wasn't ready and it took a long time to load up the various Expeditionary Forces. Any Med. activities happened shortly after the Battle of Madeira, and the attack on Toulon I think happened about a week later. I've been calling it an 'inconclusive battle' in most of my posts, so can we kind of make it one?

Essentially, I did a few things while you were out. Namely, they were the beginning of an attack on New Caledonia (which you know about) and a lot of wrangling with Franberry's Southern Confederacy that isn't amounting to anything. I still don't have forces in Africa, and I don't expect that to change.

As for controlling the Eastern Mediterranean, that seems reasonable. Fact is, I have a pretty big fleet there (2 carriers, 2 BBNs and 3BCNs plus auxiliaries) so it'd take a fleet roughly on par with the combined one facing the Atlantic Fleet to equal it. Even so, they have to protect a whole bunch of transports, which I'll probably put in Malta after I swan in and 'suggest' that they let me stay. The ones following the Atlantic Fleet are in the Azores. I'm not in a position to really launch major attacks from the Med just yet, I'll need to fight it out with your... fourth? fleet first.

I have, however, put up a WIP military factbook that you'll find useful. It's in the 'Factbook' section of the offsite forum.

EDIT: Oh, I also have one or two hunter packs of destroyers searching for ungarded French shipping, which they'll capture if possible and sink if not. Everyone loves a little guerre de course. That number'll go up as I commission new ships (going along quite nicely, except in Buenos Aires). Suffice it to say, any shipping going near Australia, the Philippines or South America will need to watch out, although it could get through safely enough.

Look, I know you want to invade New Caledonia, but that cant happen while all this offer stuff goes off. Just side line it for a while.

Otherwise that seems reasonable to me. Although even an occupation on Malta would expose your fleet to HL air attack. I will do the new super post soon, hopefully by Friday, and it will detail France's success at total war. Not to mention the 55B just given from Russia, which will secure the operation. And I have a new fleet basically ready to role off the line to, as well as not forgetting Spain. Not to mention fresh fighters and tanks rolling off the lines.

You have good ground, but are not yet charging the gates so to speak. Id say at this point everything hangs on the Battle of Madeira (actually, I was kind of hoping the Battle of the Glorious Fifth of June, since thats when it started. Its a reference to an old English/French naval battle, and forever who wins it will certainly be glorious) and the battle in Africa.

So we are agreed on that, thanks for the factbook too. I still want China though back at the Canal though, thats the most glaring irregularity; BG I agree with, hes ok, and LRR I think had sent some ships earlier but had not sent a major fleet---the major fleet whose posistion I am disputing. BG is being reasonable and fair in his three week arrival account. For China, Id have to imagine even longer.

This naval battle will be a daunting post for me, I have to include soooo much as the French and Spanish, but Ill make it good.

Actually the Chinese fleets are no where near the mid-atlantic skirmish or the canal at the moment, they're somewhere around Buenos Aires in fact after being barred from entry.

The Pacific fleet has recently left Taiwan and might reach New Caledonia in a week and a bit.

Oh, New Caledonia? That was kind of a 'when you get around to it' thing. It's mostly just a 'we want a success' move by the government, and nobody thinks that it'll be worth a thing.

My, where do yout get all these ships? You're no bigger than me! (Actually, I don't care that much. I have a new fleet coming out soon anyway... perhaps a month out from 5th of June/Madeira. Heck, I like 5th of June. Let's keep it.

Speaking of which, 1st of June. That was Jervis, right? 6 French ships taken, one sunk. As omens go... you might have picked a better one.:p

EDIT: Woah, a thousand posts. I'm... a pimp? *finds cane and pink top-hat*. There now.

The IN's squadron sailed with the Soviet ships, so wherever they are, the Union warships are also. With more substantial support forthcoming, the smaller group sent out earlier was also ordered to halt at Zanzibar, a suicidal dash into Nigerian waters no longer being necessary.

In case there is any confusion, I will now post the disposition of Union ships:

At Zanzibar (?)

Flag Group: Ibrahim Haidari (CVE), Zhob (DDG), Sadiqabad (DDG)
1st Division: Rahimyar Khan (DDG), Moro (DDG), Chagai (DDG), Balotra (DDG)
2nd Division: Ahmadpur East (DDG), Cadiz (DD), Ambajogai (FFG), Srivardhan (FFG), Parbhani (FFG), Amravati (FFG)
Fleet Support Group: Sutlej (AOR), Jyoti (AO), Subroto (AO), Guwahali (AR), Kaveri (LSL), Dudhana (LSL)

1/2 Marine Brigade (2,000)

In the Mozambique Channel

Pasni (SSK), Turbat (SSK)

In Sujava

Flag Group: Dadra & Nagar Haveli (CVE), Blake (CG), Goa (DDG), Pondicherry (DDG), Jaisalmer (DDG)
1st Division: Diu (DDG), Lothai (FFG), Dwarka (FFG), Solapur (FFG), Quetta (FF)
2nd Division: Khandwa (FFG), Ahmadabad (FF), Gwadar (FF), Islamabad (FF)
3rd Division: Colombo (FF), Calcutta (FF), Gilgit (FF), Jaipur (FF), Mohawk (FF)
Fleet Support Group: INS Aditya (AOR), Bandavgarh (LPD), Karaikai (LPD), Mahabaleswhar (PG), Jodhpur (AR)

1st Marine Division (5,000)
1st Parachute Brigade (2,000)

As can doubtless be seen, the Unioners haven't exactly amassed an armada by world standards, and their force projection capability remains severely limited even with the introduction of a pair of new amphibious warfare ships.

Has anyone even noticed there is a sort of rebellion going on in rabat at this point?

Not... really.

EDIT: Oh, and. About fortifying Gibraltar, NG, the attack made was certainly not inept, and according to Mac, the damage that I did was severe. Pretty much all his repairs were back to square one, with the airfields, SAMs, artillery and the like all smashed much as they were after Spain was done there fighting Walmington.

So, if we accept that we're perhaps 3 days after the 5th June in AMW time, then Gibraltar isn't fortified, it's a rather toasty, burning crater.

Ach, it's all back on, again! *Flustered*

I'm afraid that I've forgotten most of the specifics, and am currently trying to find the last point at which I knew what was going on, so I can prepare next action. I suppose I ought to have made notes, but I didn't know it was to be so long before we were moving again, and, if I'm honest, I was having doubts about Walmington/Britain... I suppose that my best NS days are already a couple of years behind me, and Walmington was supposed to wind-down as New Zealand in AMW before I let myself get roped into taking over for TBF :)

Ah well, I can't exactly walk out on this war, at least. I just hope that not too many posts are added while I'm reading back over half a dozen pages of monster posts!

And, yeah, Gibraltar's a total ruin, at the moment. An inferno in crowded streets, shell and bomb damage throughout, the British collapsing tunnels and dug-in positions at the unhappy surrender, likely months of work to even turn it into a place through which you can move freely, let alone into a fortress, and then the Aussie strikes destroying a lot of the means to do that. Needless to say, there'll be ironic postcards in Britain... Walmington's Gibraltar [bustling little multi-ethnic/religious metropolis in the sun] Bourbon's Gibraltar [worst mess since Dresden] :(

Edit: Oh, and, sorry, no, what's going on in Morocco, these days? I'm not even sure who is in charge and where he stands, sorry!

I got the feeling that Spain is sort of moving in and using Morocco as a mouthpiece after what seems to have been a collapse of the Moroccan sultinate after the embarrasments regarding the Polisario. But then... I don't know, really. Spiz?

Also, if Moorington would care to tell me what he means by 'mobilize armed forces'? If he's looking for a fight with... me... which I simply don't understand, then I guess there we go. Not what I really wanted to do, but whatevs.

Eek, can I get some sort of detailed revision of what I missed and what I have to respond to, and all that. I'm sort of peturbed that Australasia occupied the Azores, while I was going to do that myself within the first days of the battle, but whatever, it really isn't that important. In any case, what is going on? Everyone sorta decided to ignore my cry for help in the other thread, so I'm hoping that someone can help me out here.

Oh, and the Gibraltar is fortified. Take into consideration the amounts of firepower emplaced around it, including at Campamento, La Linea and Algeciras, as well as the Spanish troops occupying the Gibraltar - the inferno on the island is a fortification of its own.

Eek, can I get some sort of detailed revision of what I missed and what I have to respond to, and all that. I'm sort of peturbed that Australasia occupied the Azores, while I was going to do that myself within the first days of the battle, but whatever, it really isn't that important. In any case, what is going on? Everyone sorta decided to ignore my cry for help in the other thread, so I'm hoping that someone can help me out here.

Anybody?

I got the feeling that Spain is sort of moving in and using Morocco as a mouthpiece after what seems to have been a collapse of the Moroccan sultinate after the embarrasments regarding the Polisario. But then... I don't know, really. Spiz?

Also, if Moorington would care to tell me what he means by 'mobilize armed forces'? If he's looking for a fight with... me... which I simply don't understand, then I guess there we go. Not what I really wanted to do, but whatevs.

Ive been strong armed onto the Holy League side after the Sultunate lost most of its popularity following the unpleasentness with the Polisario

From the IC thread, by Mac:

[OOC: I'm going to leave the majority of the naval battle to Nova Gaul, even my ships, but I'll respond to the interception of my aircraft, which should have no real casualties. I still don't agree with you not taking a single ounce of damage, and I think it's bad role playing etiquette and I suggest to Nova Gaul that he do the same, since we have very good close in weapon systems as well that can magically destroy three to four missiles at a time...somehow.]

Flight Alarcón
The flight leader twitched as his radar screen gave him the first signs of the incoming air to air missiles. But he didn't hesitate to warn his partners, "Incoming missiles, shake off at will."

The problem with beyond visual range missiles is that they tended to use all of their fuel up in flight, and then they would glide from the ionosphere down, meaning they had no fuel to manuever. Any that they had would be taken up quickly by any sort of manuever they made. Beyond visual range missiles were great for knocking out very large bombers, or even AWACS aircraft, but they were in essence very bad ideas for knocking out quick moving fighters - even those heavily laden by ordnance. And therefore, it was only a matter of minutes before Alarcón's birds had swept widely out of the way, gained a bit of altitude for future manuevers, and finished their launch of missiles and then turned back around.


We've already been over this, before the HL went on hiatus. Quoted from the middle of June: "By the by, the air to air missiles loosed against those Spanish Rafales of ALARCON flight are BAe Meteors ordered by Bull. Loosed from fast platforms and descending on targets, as we know.

The thing is, these are new missiles, replacing AMRAAM... they're not just long-range missiles like Phoenix, that long-range Russian dealy, or the Indian Soviets' AAELRS or whatever it's called. The main feature with them is that they are manoeuvrable at range, expanding the so-called no-escape-zone to perhaps double that of AMRAAM et cetera.

I don't think that I specified (sorry), but the twelve fighters moving against ALARCON would have loosed their missiles at probably something approaching eighty kilometres, against closing targets. Normally that would mean that the Spanish were just entering the no-escape zone and would have fairish chances of pulling back or evading (but with a heavy external payload of ASMs I can't imagine it being overly easy), but I don't know how being so low would change things (possibly it'd make the missiles more likely to ditch or something, but it seems as likely that the Spanish just have less options for manoeuvre?)." And, as I later said, they are variable-thrust weapons that approach at Mach 4 and have a no-escape-zone comparable to or greater-than the maximum range of AMRAAM, Mica, and such weapons, at which those weapons would be gliding along relatively tamely.

In some respects, British forces are equipped essentially a generation ahead of their opposition, which is balanced by the fact that our army starts out 10% the size of France's, we've no strategic bomber and they've hundreds, we've only two operational battleships of non-too-radical design including one commissioned under-way to this battle, and we've deployed forces more or less nowhere instead of more or less everywhere, and we've also been preparing for many years.

Significant also is that the missiles were launched at roughhhly 80km between launch aircraft and targets, in a closing head-on engagement, but the intercepting aircraft were some distance from the fleet. I assumed at least some disruption to the attack resulting from this.
(It was also possible that the flight might have escaped by aborting if the intercepting launches were detected, and getting the hell out of there, since this was probably close to the egde of the no-escape-zone, and they were at low-altitude, potentially limiting the range of the missiles once they'd descended from the higher-flying Super Harriers. The carriage of anti-ship missiles, large numbers of invovled aircraft, and proximity to the direction-limiting ocean surface might hurt this, but I supposed that it was at least an option, no?)

Anyway, assuming that some/all of the anti-ship missiles were loosed, a couple of hundred Km from the fleet, they were then fallen-upon by the intercepting fighters with guns ablazin, chased back to intercept by more fighters on CAP and armed with ASRAAM, and then left to the fleet's shipboard long and short range and point defences. As LRR said, "And keep in mind that the Walmingtonian Navy has at its disposal what are the best anti-aircraft ships outside Quinntonia, possibly better, and lots of them. Even one Daring-class destroyer can take care of itself, never mind over a dozen of them."

With the AShMs followed and attacked over their cruise, they were then faced with British PAAMS Mk30 and then Mk15 missiles helped by aerial as well as shipboard tracking systems, from an arsenal as yet totally undamaged and untaxed in the battle, and fully armed against them. Then they met short-range and point defences from the missiles of the frigates to the CIWS of the destroyers and battleship, and the brand-new radar spoofing devices, and finally the belt of the battleship that had several minutes to begin putting itself in the way (it's not like she'll break target locks by doing so, after our experience in the Falklands).

Apart from the technological differences and balances and the circumstances of the attack and interception, this is one mother of a target, as virtually the entirety of one of the world's biggest military organisations was on the defending side. Far from having to deal with three or four missiles a piece, most of our crews scrambled to crisis stations only to find that they had little or nothing to do.

Basically, I suppose, the British Royal Navy -shock horror- was just too strong to be stumbled by the Spanish at this point.

Oh, and casualties are fully expected during this round's on-going exchange, so to speak, but I didn't want to just randomly down one token item for some madcap reason, or sink a previously unmentioned minor element just for the sake of it. Perhaps that just because I know that I will lose things when necessary, not just for tokenism. I lost the Rock, and with it a major strategic issue, after all.

As to the Azores, I think I missed something. Those are under British occupation, and have been since Portugal was invaded, as you indicated at the time. I assume that was because Spain knew that it would lose everything it sent before it got anywhere near the remote islands, which house a Portuguese government in exile (or part of it) and now some RAF Typhoon and various Australasian assets. Half the RN was just off shore there.

Maybe we've got crossed wires about what you mean, here. The Madeira islands were annexed to Spain, weren't they? I dunno if Aus. has done something there, yet?

Walmington, then, umm, the design goes against the principles of the design of the missile, since in order to be able to manuever you have to have fuel, and the fuel is expended on flight - if you still have fuel post-flight it means your missile is rather ... large ... and thusly, unmaneuverable. I really don't understand how your missiles breach that section of physics. Regardless, all I know is that Australasia is using that as a base, whether it's occupied by the British as well is irrelevent. Now, if you're going to pull another, "LOL WE SEE ALL"...well so be it... but, umm, ...whatever. EDIT: Half the royal navy? What exactly do you have deployed in the huge battle going on north of the Azores, and umm, what exactly do you have deployed in the North Sea and English Channel? It seems as if the Royal Navy has 150% capability.

Well, you can say that something's breaking the laws of physics, but that doesn't always make it so.

The missiles are just good, that's all. Good and modern.

They are officially medium-range missiles, not long-range, it's just that they're the next generation to AMRAAM et cetera, in development since the Bull administration of the early 1990s.

As I say, they're medium-range missiles on the leading edge, and have a range in excess of 100km. Driven by variable-thrust (throttleable) motors, they are quite capable of a controlled terminal stage of above Mach 4.

It is almost exatly the same length as a standard AMRAAM, and weighs a little more.

As an aside: Often the British in this battle have closed somewhat below the missile's claimed maximum effective range before launching to minimise the need for major mid-course correction, and have been attacking inbound anti-ship-missile-laden attackers and heavy bombers, thus have been able to estimate their continued course fairly well, and usually have had more than enough missiles to direct some so as to cover possible radical changes, anyway, and they are supported by Nimrod AEW, Merlin MASC, and extremely powerful shipboard radar anyway. I say this because, in some cases, we have broken-off after launch, and I wanted to confirm that we weren't just leaving it to chance that the enemy would walk into the range of the missiles' homing heads.

The Azores: I'm still not sure, what is the problem? I must be missing something, sorry. Is there some OOC issue of contention, here? I asked, early on, about Spain's intention/action re. Portugal's outlying islands, and was given to believe -by you, Mac- that the Azores were untouched, and it was accepted that the British had taken the islands under protection. Since then, we've allowed-in Australasian aircraft. Madeira, on the other hand, was assumed to have been taken by Spain.

As to where the RN is... er... the huge battle is exactly where we are. That's the only place we could be attacked, since we aren't anywhere else. Where the heck else do you think we are fighting but in the, uh, battle? Most of the Royal Navy is there, under Admiral Longworth, inclusive of three of our four operational carriers, one of two battleships, and a couple of dozen frigates and destroyers.
To the north is France's First Fleet, coming out of the Channel, pursued by a smaller British fleet centred around the fourth carrier (a fifth is afloat but in fitting, and the sixth and last is laid-down under construction) and containing just about all the remaining surface combattants in British home waters. This is under Rear-Admiral Whyte.
In the Med. at Cyprus is the second (well, first, actually) operational battleship, along with an Australasian fleet.
In home waters now are, pretty much, patrol boats, littoral craft, and submarines including the two D/E boats reactivated by the Tories. Other than that, it's coastal defences and shore-based aircraft that's left to defend Britain's territory, plus a few major assets in final fitting or overhaul, a minority of which might conceivably put to sea in less than ideal condition should an invasion be feared.

The RN is desperately over-stretched, but we're trying to save our Australasian allies from facing two French fleets and the Spanish alone, defend the Azores, and achieve an important victory after the defeat of Gibraltar. It is not Britain but France that has ships in every which direction, since they've matched every bit of our Atlantic deployment and still seem to have a fleet in the Channel and whatever they may have in the western Med.! And the African deployments! We just haven't got as many ships as the French, hence the need to deploy everything to the battle, all owing partly to our greater R&D expenditure in the last decade or two.

We've resolved to win wherever we can fight, while, I can only suppose, the French seem to have decided to have something left over to fight where we can't... such as Africa, which is getting absolutely no British help at the moment, despite half of it being British until a couple of decades ago.

Anyway, yeah, there's two ways to look at it. The first involves reading my lengthy explanations time and again, the second, much shorter, involves accepting that you might be talking out of your backside, if I may be allowed to venture that opinion :)

If Britain's winning by too far, it's only because we've bent our backs that one inch closer to breaking point, while the French still have uncommitted assets coming out of their ears.

Somebody help me, here! I'm sorry, but it's becoming really difficult, since I've explained about the missiles several times over a period of a couple of fricking months, and while I'm being accused of, what, using ships I don't have(?) when I'm deployed to, basically, one single battle, and the French are deployed to it plus two or three more places! (I'm not contending their deployments, just infuriated at having my own much more modest ones questioned in an environment that accepts theirs!)

I should have stuck with New Zealand :(

What Walmington has said about the Meteor is wholly true. All missiles, whatever their function, do indeed expend fuel at rates depending on their speed and orientation in flight. It just so happens that the Meteor uses an altogether more efficient combined rocket/ramjet propulsion system that offers improved range at speed. The missile still uses-up fuel, as is necessary for any object propelled by combustables, but at a slower rate as is allowed by the air-breathing ramjet. It is not Walmington's fault that France stuck with the more conventional MICA, thus giving the RAF and FAA a rather clear-cut superiority in the BVR arena.

And he still shot them from well within their effective range, at, as has been many times stated, closing targets laden with anti-ship missiles.

As to the Azores, I find it difficult to believe that Spain could develop in the space of a few months an aircraft immune to detection on the part of any serious modern air defense radar. If Walmington had developed ground-based examples of the S1850M long-range search radar, the CASA 17.T's chances are somewhat reduced. There is a very good reason why Walmington, unwilling to make the incredible expenditures needed to compete with France in hulls, has many essentially world-beating missile and radar systems.

OOC-

Gurg, I am calling foul. I’m sorry, you have one battleship, no matter how good it may be, against 7. 7, that’s it. 19” guns are also unrealistic, ask Strath, I was called on that two years ago. Your completely outgunned. The French fighter corps, and the Spanish are not fighting you desperately, they are fighting the British so. You are massively outgunned at every single angle, and in the maelstrom you have time for anti-torpedo measures? Anti-torpedo measures when you have foolishly engaged at close range the strongest surface fleet on earth, and are getting 8 times what you dish out? I am sorry, I cannot post until this matter is resolved. Nothing against you, mon ami, but this is not working at all.

I visibly posted that the French carrier force, and their picket line, stayed well away when the battleships and escorts formed a line of attack. Its posted a few back, and therefore Bourbon’s carriers are out of your range. Unless in the hellish attack you managed to scramble a few, its doubtful though.

Ask anyone in AMW. Restoration France spent a disproportionate amount of money of their Royal Navy fleet, it was being built two years before you arrived here, and now everything is squarely directed against you alone. Your response was in no way realistic.

To Walmington. The French Northern fleet is no longer in the Channel, as you have launched a missile attack against it I thought you knew this. And at this point I am fully engaged in all my naval capacity, to the breaking point as you seem to be corresponding to, which would make sense as we are both putting everything we have into it. Even the Med fleet is busy securing our lines there, and so is relativley at full capacity.

Our air force is committed, if not all craft, then right now with all supply ability. The army remains largely in France and Spain, with the exceptions of course of the African force and Algerian garrison.

Again the French and Spanish have waited for this for years, and no democracy has solidly RPed prepping for war as long as we have. Those are just the facts. It goes without saying that we will have an edge at the wars outset. I haven’t even complained about facing complete resistance from the poorest and most backwater section of the entire globe because it seems realistic all things equal in AMW and is producing some of the finest RP I have seen in AMW. I thought this was about producing quality and realistic RPs for the enhancement of AMW, not winning battles on a video game for points.

The following post is in response to NG's concerns, visible in the IC thread.

This whole battle has been horridly confused, as much from my relative inexperience with either MT combat or long, drawn out RP as by the absence of 1/2 of us for several months. I'm having trouble visualizing the field, as it were, but as I imagine it, we have the Brits a fair way to the north, the Australasians rather outnumbered and facing the French line of battle, which curves in a sort of semi-circular shape to maximize firepower. ...right?

As for the position of the French carriers, I did miss that detail, but it pretty much invalidates... all my posts since the French crossed my T. Ahem. In light of the new situation, it would make more sense to quit the field than keep going, but what's done is done. On the other hand, since my strategy hinged on attacking something that simply is not there, and all my actions have focussed around it, I don't really know what to do.

Agreed, this isn't working at all. I'm not really sure how to continue. Nothing else to say on the general front of things.

What follows next is going to sound anal, no way around it. But I think that it's an important nitpick to make, since we're beginning a major gun-battle in which the Cherbourg plays a major, even crucial part.

And now, about the Cherbourg:

Its tonnage is much, much to light for its size and armament, (around 3,000 tonnes less than the Victory, which mounts fewer guns, less armour and the like. It is a full 13 knots faster than the smaller, lighter Victory, and faster than any comparably sized warship in existence. For example, take the Nimitz. The thing does 33 knots, weighs less and is smaller than the Cherbourg and carries exactly no real armour or guns.

Quadruple mounts are a bad idea, no way around it. They jam horribly, necessitate massive, fat turrets that unbalance the ship, and will stress the hull a great deal. They fire... sixteen inch shells, right?

The nineteen inch guns seemed to pass muster by Walmington when he critiqued the design, as well as the NS Draftroom. I therefore assumed that they were fine, but if Strath wants to comment?

The anti-torpedo measures are essentially thus: Each of the smaller ships begins putting out radio, sonar and to what extent they can, radar signatures that mimic the carrier. For the battleships on the surface, it matters not at all, they can see you just fine. But for submarines or BVR aircraft? It will look like I have eight carriers or so.

Now, aircraft can co-ordinate with the ships, but subs can't do that nearly so effectively. The technology is real, BTW. My dad was in charge of one of these gadgets when he was in the navy, I just scaled it up to include battleships or the like.

Yes, I am outgunned, and yes, this battle no longer makes much sense. Not least of which is my fault, but as far as aircraft are concerned?

Australasians:~80 fighters, Cavaliers and Templars alike.
French/Spanish: 196 fighters, Mirage and Rafale alike.

Now, you have me well outdone in the fighter department, but if your fighters are launching from range, I can see them a lot better than they can see me due to both superior radar and radar absorbant materials on my fighter. During that time, I'm launching as many missiles as I can, trying to even the odds. No way that I'll kill them all, or even enough to achieve pairity. But if I'm already in the air, I can hit them while they launch. Sure, you're still going to win the air war eventually. But it doesn't have to be easy...

Anyway. I'd like some opinions, since I think I've made it clear that I don't know what else I'm supposed to do with all of this. I dunno, I suppose the statement about winning points was fair... all I can say, at least for the moment, is that I'm still getting used to serious RP.

Ah, yes, there is a problem in the battle, hey? I was surprised when the Australasians didn't do more to keep the French at arm's length, like Longworth, but thought that perhaps I was just being too English and not taking proper account of Aussie bravado, and that maybe I had underestimated the gun-and-armour weight of my ally's fleet, rather than thinking that he'd misread NG's disposition.

Could it be made into some sort of horrible IC mistake? I'll put some of the blame on to British assets if it helps to take a little of the pain off the losses that the Aussies may suffer as a result. Perhaps the infamous AEW Nimrod, resurrected by Bull, has provided suspect information, and/or it has been relayed improperly to our foreign allies, and Damascus has gone in with dodgey intelligence. Perhaps he even mistrusted information from the aircraft, which has a horrid reputation, after all, and dismissed it in the mother of all career mistakes.

Longworth is attempting to wade-in and help (IC post coming, sorry to say it's influenced by gin, but that's realistic enough!), and perhaps the Aussies can break-off when they realise the mistake, before they lose everything. But perhaps this is just too harsh? I don't know.


Erm, on battleships! Let's see, ah, this would have been resolved much more easily back in WoS's glory days, long before AMW, when we were locked in war with Der Kriegsmarine [sic] alongside Iansisle and Calarca, and people managed to sound like they knew what they were talking about!

I would say that 19" guns are possible, much as quad-mount turrets, but both might be questionable in value. As Gurg says, there's plenty of problems with such mountings, but the French did it in the past, and they're perfectly allowed to make the same mistakes again in pursuit of an impressive outline and psychologically impressive broadside potential. NG even used the Strasbourg as a picture, I think? It might be right to play some trouble with the arrangement, though?

I think the thing with the big guns was probably that NG had too many of them, in the past, and possibly we wanted to see a choice between size and number? And he went for number?

The Cherbourgs have only 13" guns, actually, which are going to mostly be bouncing off Victory much as they will against Glorious, Britain's only battleship in theatre. They'll carve straight through everything else we've got, of course. Maybe Australasia's other armoured vessels will stand a chance, I'm not sure what they're like, armour wise.

The 19" guns are clearly monsters, and are possible, I just don't know if they're worth the trouble. They'll weigh a hell of a lot, and I'd assume that you'll sacrifice something in rate-of-fire, hm? Less guns and less round-per-minute, meaning the enemy always has at least a chance to disable you before you can start landing shots on him, though, if you do, he's probably toast. I just struggle to say too much about the values of these weapons in modern warfare... would everyone be landing first-shot-hits, given modern guidance? Will modern penetrators enable smaller shells to do more damage? Will they make larger shells worth it (Yamato's 18.1" thingis were no better than American 16" guns, but that could just be down to crappy Japanese ammunition... I think, though, everyone else decided that going up above 16" just wasn't worth it for the tiny performance boosts you get)?

Okay, this could go on forever.

Since it's an issue, perhaps we should all put our battleships on the table and try to quickly work-out what they're all about? Specifically things like... are the Aussies' ships big enough for the number and size of their guns? What are France's ships designed for, exactly?

I mean, the ships used in NG's picture for the (actually radically different) Cherbourgs were meant to be fast battleships to counter Germany's pocket-battleships. Not quite of the armour or firepower to match full battleships, but able to catch those pesky raiders and do them over. I think Gurg's concerns stem from statistics that seem to indicate that NG's design is supposed to do the work of several quite different types of battleship, which maybe isn't quite workable.

Does France want a fast battleship able to chase, I dunno, carrier battle fleets, and engage them with a lot of guns good enough to take out modern ships? That was largely my impression, but this means that they can't be the sort of monster that stands in line against a British Courageous and expects to come away the victor. Of course it does mean that they can run away from such a ship. On the other hand, they could be a monster like that, but then they're going to struggle to chase-down carrier forces, or, equally, to escape them.

Re. the First Fleet, yeah, sorry, I know, I just didn't phrase that too well. We're chasing them down as they've come from the Channel.
Just a note- do you still have significant forces surrounding the Channel Islands? A few more people are going to want to evacuate, if possible! (Most will probably be stubborn, you know, but we didn't get out all of the children before the First Fleet surrounded the area.)

This is why I love AMW, we are all reasonable people and therefore everything will work out. That said, I guess we have to deal with the details now.

I think Walmington is onto something when he says it could be made into a horrible IC mistake, but lets suspend that while we 'chew the fat'. I will start with myself, and the horribly confused for glorious ships Cherbourg class. Originally, they began as monster ships, back in TBF's days. That was eventually, after confused RP, decided to really be moding, being as they were at 100,000 + tons...I admit, I am a bit too dramatic for statistics sometimes. Eventually, that was thrown out, and a new lighter Cherbourg was built, as shown below.

Displacement: 66,380 tons
Length: 415.1 m
Beam: 42.7 m
Width: 65.1 m
Propulsion: 1 Indret Nuclear Reactor,
6 Rateau geared turbines,
235,585 hp
Speed: 43 knots
Range: N/A
Complement: 6381 men
Armament:
• 4 quadruple 330 mm turrets
• 8 quadruple and 2 double 130 mm AA turrets
• 5 double 37 mm AA turrets
• 7 double SAM missile stations
• 6 Exocet ASM missile turrets
• Two 6 cell Sadral launchers carrying Mistral short range missiles
• Three Fury V ICMB silos equipped with a total of 20 missiles, some nuclear armed, each.
• Three Leclerc Radar Arrays
• Two Lemare Sonar Arrays
Shielding
• 625 mm (side belt)
• 230 mm (anti-torpedo bulkheads)
• 425-315 mm (deck)
• 630-310 mm (turrets)
Satellite transmission 1 Syracuse IV system

Et voila. Now, as Walmington said as to the nature of the Cherbourgs, as they are now. Good eye, BTW, it was the Strasbourg. They are ultra-modern (mainly due to the fact that other states navies laughed at the idea of building new battleships instead of carriers) fast attack battleships, designed for exactly the battle they are in, which is to say fast approach on an modern style enemy fleet and devastating close contact attack thereof. Against the British monsters, they would be designed to exchange a few blows, but yes, you will not find them forming a line.

If Gurg had five of those Battlehsips of his, this would be a different story, but alas he does not. But yes, they are not so much monsters as they are devils, if you see my analogy. If a lion fights an elephant, well, its a done deal, but if you have a pack of lions, that pacaderm isnt gonna be so happy...much less a whale stranded on the shore. So, what ideas shall we use to work this snaffu out?

And yes, the Channel Islands would be wide open right now, with the French worried only about defending their coast and vital bases.

Horrible IC mistake... I can go with that. Or perhaps the 'charge' was to give more spread out assets (fighters, errant subs) time to return... this is probably going to be a defeat either way, but whatever. Moving on.

To the Victory, some have said that it's too packed with heavy weapons. Originally, it had four triple turrets... but I dropped one, bringing the gun armament to 9 19" turrets. The rest is copy-pasted from my 'designs' file. Yay, notepad.

Name: Victory Class
Type: Battleship
Hull Designation: BBN

Dimensions:
Length: 287 metres
Beam: 40.2 metres
Draft: 11.85 metres
Displacement: 89,932.8 metric tonnes (standard)

Hull Build: Monohull

Propulsion: 4x screw shafts driven by 2 nuclear reactors
Top Speed: 28 knots
Flank Speed: 30 knots
Top Cruising Speed: 27 knots
Normal Cruising Speed: 25 knots

Armament:

Guns:
9x 490 mm guns in 3 triple turrets
16x 125 mm high precision guns in 8 dual turrets
4x Testudo 35mm gun-based CIWS (1 fore, 1 aft, 2 centre)

Underwater:
none

Missiles:
Fore:
1x RAM missile launcher
2x anti-ship missile launcher
Mid:
4x anti-ship missile launcher
2x Aster-15/30 missile launcher
2x RAM missile launcher
1x 40 cell VLS system
Aft:
1x RAM missile launcher
2x anti-ship missile launcher
Total:
4x RAM missile launcher
8x anti-ship missile launcher
2x Aster-15/30 missile launcher
1x 40 cell VLS system

Armour:
Belt: 435 mm
Bulkhead: 480 mm
Barbettes: 480 mm
Turrets: 480 mm
Deck: 250 mm

Aviation:
1x UAV launcher
Electronics:

Radar:
Raytheon AN/SPS-73 Surface Search Radar
Krillig Datasystems DE-33C Overlord Aerial Search Radar
Sonar:
Raytheon AN/SQS-56(I) Active Sonar Array
Aeromarine G-45 Towed Passive Sonar Array
Optics:
Krillig UE-98/D LIDAR array
Zanthus AS/NS 45/EEG LADAR array
Communications:
McLaren AA-1 Comprehensive Communications Package
Fire Control:
Aeromarine Ship Self Defense System
Ship Control:
Zanthus AS/NS 98B Ship System Integration
Countermeasures:
4 multipurpose flare/chaff launchers (1 fore, 1 aft, 2 centre)
6 noisemaker/active countermeasure launchers (2 fore, 2 aft, 2 centre)
Aeromarine AD/AS-98AIC Dynamic Electronic Warfare Countermeasure Suite

Complement:
2,850 (185 officers)
Stealth Features:

Against Radar:
MAJIC2 (Mimicry And Jamming Interface Control) system allows the BBN to electronically 'mimic' a CG, CE, DDG or DDA on sonar, and to a more limited extent radar as well.
Against Sonar:
None other than MAJIC2
Range:
Unlimited
Endurance:
Maintenance overhauls required every 25 years for nuclear reactors
Consumables:
9 months food stores

Hey, how's this sound. The charge by the Victory, Temeraire and the other BCN was made by them, supported by CEs and DDAs while the slower CGs, DDGs and CVAN make their escape. The heavies'll do an about face in the next post, running for all they're worth. Retire to our various naval bases, while the Island Fleet bites its nails and waits for its air cover.

It sounds Ok Gurg, but I dont mean to seem like an ass: I am sorry, but I simply cannot let you walk away from what could be my only major naval victory of the war, having planned this so long as I have and conducted fair play ICly.

We have to play this realistically, and a modern surface fleet cannot simply stroll away when it interlocked with seven heavy 'Holy League-ish' ships of the lines as information provided, escort ships which again outnumber the Aussies 2 to 1, not to even mention the aerial battle.

I am simply aghast after reading Walmington's IC post, and will have to take some devastating damage soon, my minds wheels are cranking to make it OK for me to write without throwing up. As has been said, these are, using that British term, 'early days', and these 'early days' like most every war in European History will go to the ravenously charging continentals, who have been forcing their subjects for decades to prepare to unleash this war, and in doing so restore their lawfully given empires.

So, no matter if the "Good Guys" will eventually win (it is the price you pay as the "Bad Guy" to take the hit, so the RP can take place), they will have to strive for victory. So, realistically, I dont mean to be a jerk, I think both your heavies and everything else will not do OK, and cannot imagine you getting away without still utterly devastating casualties, and not just frieghters and destroyers. The Stormhawk has recieved a withering fire, and though your Battleship may be scoring hits, your fleet simply couldnt deal with this. So yes, they might pull back, but they are interlocked with the Armada right now, and I wouldnt reccomend any of your ships, even the battleship, make a sortie against seven ships of the line, its is your game however.

Again, apologies, but Ive simply waited and planned to long for this to give it up. ICly, it is far and away the most hugely expensive part of the war, only counting what I have lost already, it is was a sorrowful. So, now with you in a posistion to take the one of the worst assaults in maritime history, I cannot condone an escape route. You can slap me if you wish, but in honest truth, in all honest truth, for two years of waking time and decades IC I have been gearing up for this, and cannot dismiss it.

*slaps* All's fair in love and war, as they say.
I'm kidding.

Naw, that's fine. I'm typing up a post now on notepad, and I'm going to lose myself a battlecruiser and mission-kill the Stormhawk, as it were. Aussie planes'll probably have to either ditch or land on British carriers if they can.

I'm trying to work this out so that it

A) Makes sense.
B) Isn't a Godmod
C) Still fits with what we've posted thus far.

I'd actually like to see a kind of New French Empire going on, simply because having communards running all over the planet is irritating in the extreme. You may have a nasty, peasant-whipping side, but it's delightful to read. I'm tempted to try to work it that you keep African holdings (although maybe not all of ECOWAS, I dunno, whatever) after the war is done.

Back on topic. If you want to, you could probably slip half a wing of aircraft in from somewhere and really screw up the guided missile ships, my fighters are WAY too busy to deal with them. Drop a few bombs on the Stormhawk and she'll sink, guaranteed. I think it'd be a tough run to survive, though, since a fair few of those ships have Aster missiles that would make life tiresome. Still, high return for relatively low loss.

I would, if possible, not like to be totally annihilated. Hence, the sort of organized-retreat post that I have going up (probably tomorrow). Because of all the confusion as to where stuff is, here's the Australasian position, once and for all.

The Stormhawk, CGs and DDGs have broken from the line under heavy fire, and are hitailing it out of there. The gunships are maintaining the line, but pulling out obliquely to the west-southwest. The Temeraire is sinking awkwardly in the middle of it all, and it's kind of like that picture of the Lexington sinking from WWII. People jumping off the sides and things. I have almost no corvettes left, those tend to go quickly in a fight like this. Destroyers... one good hit from the Cherbourgs or the Roik ships finishes them, so they're not doing the best out of all involved.

I think I'll end up losing the carrier, as well as the Temeraire. If the Brits intervene soon, I'll come away with the other two heavies (Victory and the as-yet unmentioned Tonnant) damaged, but alive. Maybe even the Stormhawk, if they're quick. If they don't, I might have to dump the Victory and transfer flag to the battlecruiser before running straight home. But that's Walmington's deal right now.

The escort cruisers and destroyers are tough ships, but they really can't cut it in line. Again, a single salvo'll do a DDA, another one or two will sink a CE. I don't know how many'll live, really. We'll see.

I guess... this isn't your Trafalgar, more your Trincomalee or something. You'll beat us, I'll run to a port and repair, and join the Brits as a sort of gunship squadron. Don't think I'll be operating alone without a carrier, and I don't think Damascus has a bright future as a commander. But I don't think it's realistic to commit seppuku on the floor either, even in the face of superior numbers.

I hope this all works out, and I'm eager to move on, either to war or peace. I dunno about the diplomacy thing, though. Walmington just sort of threw a wrench in it, but I'll see what he thinks.

Wal, you have a telegram. And no biggie about the speech, although I'm less and less excited about the prospect of invading Europe, to be honest.

That sounds very good, leaving room for engagement in another post for me to get a turn in fairly as you recover from this while being appropriate now. I think the Battle of Trincomalee would be a perfect metaphor for how the disparate nations' fleets would resolve themselves, and how this battle was resolved...everyone drew blood and expended massive amounts of wealth in the opening bout (I think we all agree the Battle was at the very beginning of the war, possibly even before the attack on Gibraltar?) of what looks to be a massive and continuing war, barring the hope for a diplomatic solution.

I dont think any of our fleets will be able to operate such intense combat much longer realistically anyway. And I think then the name would be a propos. The Glorious 12th of June would have, after all, been glorious for all three sides involved, each having given everything they had. It would look great of some excellent AMW Wiki history of this war...

And by the way, everyone feel free to comment...

What is this war going to be called? Or is it, simply, to soon to tell yet?

I believe we've discussed the Cherbourg class before, and pointed out a number of sticking points in its design. I'm no expert, but 43 knots for a 60,000+ ton monohulled warship that develops not altogether more horsepower than the considerably lighter Iowa Class seems rather excessive. Perhaps something closer to 30 knots would be more appropriate for a ship of the stated size.

And then, of course, there is the high number of guns in broad turrets, and the terribly thick armor, but what seems odd to me isn't necessarily incorrect, so I'll let Walmington take-over the critique of battleship designs.

Well, I reccomend posting stuff on the NS draftroom. They've called me on a fair few things, and I like to think that I've improved by reading what others do. But anyway, post going up.

I'm going to be away for the next three to six days, although I might drop in now and again.

Depending on how long it takes and who wins, we could call the war World War Three, the Unification War(s), The Independance War or something like that.

What Walmington has said about the Meteor is wholly true. All missiles, whatever their function, do indeed expend fuel at rates depending on their speed and orientation in flight. It just so happens that the Meteor uses an altogether more efficient combined rocket/ramjet propulsion system that offers improved range at speed. The missile still uses-up fuel, as is necessary for any object propelled by combustables, but at a slower rate as is allowed by the air-breathing ramjet. It is not Walmington's fault that France stuck with the more conventional MICA, thus giving the RAF and FAA a rather clear-cut superiority in the BVR arena.


Then at what velocity is it flying to reach 80 to 100 kilometers before I launch the missiles on my aircraft? It's going to have to be flying rather quickly, given that he probably launched them when I was close to my launch point - or not, since he tends to pull the, "I see all from any location" trick quite a bit. Regardless, air breathing ramjets tend to preform less well at slower velocities, given that combustion ratios are really bad irregardless at what velocity and at what altitude - there's just no comparison between a 2:1 ratio and a 11:1 ratio of a conventional rocket engine. Even 2D thrust, or 3D thrust, requires quite a bit of fuel to pull similar manuevers to what a jet aircraft can pull in flight... especially[/i] a missile with a range of over 100 kilometers. Sorry, I'm just not willing to accept this wonder missile.

And he still shot them from well within their effective range, at, as has been many times stated, closing targets laden with anti-ship missiles.

They are not 'well' within their effective range. If he fired at 80 kilometers then he is almost at their envelope, meaning he's running rather low on fuel, especially if he wants to catch me before I drop my missiles.

As to the Azores, I find it difficult to believe that Spain could develop in the space of a few months an aircraft immune to detection on the part of any serious modern air defense radar.

They are not immune at all. This conjecture is just product of bad reading. There's a huge naval battle going north of the Azores. I'd expect that the majority of his efforts are patrolling that area since that is the most threatened sector, given that half my navy is there. My aircraft are flying low, they are built to have some stealth, as said in the post, and they are basing their abilities on that assumption, which I would think is true - I don't think Walmington has the power to have equal eyes in all direction, sorry. I roleplay with disadvantages - I'm Spain. I didn't change the history to have dozens of battleships. Roleplaying like 'you're the shit', for lack of a better word, is bad roleplaying. I'm sorry to be brunt, but it is.

And I didn't design it in 'just a few months'. My introduction roleplay had to do with industrial developement. I believe in fluid time, meaning I'm not going to wait a true year to build up my industry because later a guy that says has next generation fighters, missiles and ships can't take loosing a little.

If Walmington had developed ground-based examples of the S1850M long-range search radar, the CASA 17.T's chances are somewhat reduced.

He just took the Azores. Somehow I really doubt that he could do that. Fluid time: just because I was in Spain for two months doesn't mean it's been two months in the role play.

There is a very good reason why Walmington, unwilling to make the incredible expenditures needed to compete with France in hulls, has many essentially world-beating missile and radar systems.

If only the missile was ... possible!


As I say, they're medium-range missiles on the leading edge, and have a range in excess of 100km. Driven by variable-thrust (throttleable) motors, they are quite capable of a controlled terminal stage of above Mach 4.


Unfortunately, the AMRAAM faces similar problems, which is why most aircraft will still have at least two SRAAMs for dog fights. The doctrine is to fire their AMRAAMs to break up the incoming wing and then go in for the kill using their SRAAMs. Either that, or hit and run tactics if they can afford multiple hits and the costs of the missiles. In fact, there is severe criticism of the F-22 and the AIM-120, as well as the Eurofighter's new BVRAAM that the conglomerate s designing. First of all, cost [the F-22 has been bought for around 344 million a piece], and second of all the lack of killing power for that cost.


The Azores: I'm still not sure, what is the problem? I must be missing something, sorry. Is there some OOC issue of contention, here? I asked, early on, about Spain's intention/action re. Portugal's outlying islands, and was given to believe -by you, Mac- that the Azores were untouched, and it was accepted that the British had taken the islands under protection. Since then, we've allowed-in Australasian aircraft. Madeira, on the other hand, was assumed to have been taken by Spain.


Sorry, after I post I get a bit jumpy because I get tired of writing. :( In any case, Madeira is Spanish. The Azores were never touched. Madrid has always assumed that taking them fast enough would be impossible, which is why we're supporting the French in this battle. The idea was either to take them after the battle, or during the battle using the confusion of the battle to our advantage. We consider ourselves the weakest players of this war on the sea, although we consider ourselves a very snide country and people . Spain assumed that Britain would occupy the islands as quickly as possible, although I didn't expect them to be occupied during my hiatus to Spain given that I thought it would be frozen until I posted - nor did I think that you would use that time to develope, even though technically not even the battle has progressed yet. Those are assumptions I made in my post. Spain now sees the opportunity to steal them and turn them into a small fortress, even if it can't hold it. Spain isn't doing it for the land or strategic value it has for the Armada, but more so just for the temporary victories and morale boosts to the people.


As to where the RN is... er... the huge battle is exactly where we are. That's the only place we could be attacked, since we aren't anywhere else. Where the heck else do you think we are fighting but in the, uh, battle? Most of the Royal Navy is there, under Admiral Longworth, inclusive of three of our four operational carriers, one of two battleships, and a couple of dozen frigates and destroyers.


You made it sound as if you were docked in the Azores right now; at least, in your last OOC post. So it made it sound as if you had two different large fleets around the same location.


To the north is France's First Fleet, coming out of the Channel, pursued by a smaller British fleet centred around the fourth carrier (a fifth is afloat but in fitting, and the sixth and last is laid-down under construction) and containing just about all the remaining surface combattants in British home waters. This is under Rear-Admiral Whyte.
In the Med. at Cyprus is the second (well, first, actually) operational battleship, along with an Australasian fleet.


Bad geographical explenation on our part then. The French and Spanish fleets, at least parts of the French fleet, left from [i]Cadiz. This city is in Southern Spain, meaning it approaches from the south of the Azores. The French fleet from Cherboug should actually be coming almost perfectly westwards, given the high latitude of the Azores in comparison to southern and western Europe [around central France, IIRC]. So your two threats are west and south, not north.


Anyway, yeah, there's two ways to look at it. The first involves reading my lengthy explanations time and again, the second, much shorter, involves accepting that you might be talking out of your backside, if I may be allowed to venture that opinion


o.O Umm, I'll ignore this.


Somebody help me, here! I'm sorry, but it's becoming really difficult, since I've explained about the missiles several times over a period of a couple of fricking months,


Err, as you well know, I was, unfortunately [b]gone for those 'couple of frickin' months', so apologize me having things to do ... elsewhere?

The BAe Meteor is based generally on the... Meteor, a real-life project, all be it one that is yet incomplete. But AMW Britain started it the better part of a decade earlier, and spent more on it, without faffing-about with differently-minded foreign partners, bringing it into service while France was launching seven or more battleships and Russia was reversing the free-fall decline of a huge nation, et cetera. LRR describes elements of a real project, to which the Walmingtonian weapon is similar. And the targets were indeed well within range, and would have been if we'd shot ten or twenty kilometres sooner. We're not talking about Sparrow or early AMRAAM or anything, here.

The Azores: all we've really done, in military terms, is unload a forward expedition and deploy some aircraft, including one squadron of Typhoon for defence and using the place as a waypoint for Nimrod maritime-patrol, AEW, and tanker aircraft.

The British fleets: Admiral Longworth lead the main force out to join Vice-Admiral Frazer, who was in the Atlantic at the time war broke out. Frazer headed for the Azores, and arrived near by, and Longworth headed towards him.
Longworth and Frazer were close -close enough for Frazer's Super Harrier to provide short-term CAP over Longworth's emptied carriers-, but not joined in formation until early on the 14th.
They were east of the Azores, and began to pull slightly west and south when the French closed. The French came from the east and, later, dispatched the First Fleet from the north. Longworth and Frazer arranged their rendevouz to happen comfortably far from French guns coming from the northeast and east.
The Aussies, to our south, closed with the French coming from their northeast and/or east, which took Longworth rather by surprise.
The French First Fleet then moved out of the Channel and began to approach from the north/northeast, and it was pursued by just about the last surface assets available to the RN, coming out of the Celtic Sea under Rear-Admiral Whyte.
Longworth has just taken his battleship south in an attempt to help the Australasians break-away from the French close engagement, but may yet be forced to abort, and may not arrive in time anyway.

I know that you were gone, but that doesnt' change in any way the fact that we'd been over so much of what we've since rehased before you left, nor that I may be slightly tired of it.

Back shortly to talk battleships.

All right, battleships in AMW!

This is not the most important topic, in many ways, but I may get some twisted kind of enjoyment out of it, so I'll go ahead, anyway.

I must first admit to being a little flustered at becoming the community's battleship go-to-guy... it's not like I've taken a course, or anything! Closest I've been is visiting HMS Belfast! Ah, well, it is all relative, I suppose, and I may as well say my piece.

I think that battleships in AMW started with Bonstock. That regional superpower cum global pariah built several super-battleships as terror weapons to float about in its largely archipelago-based empire and discourage anyone from starting a fight. Unfortunately for the Bonstockians, virtually the entire world united against them and, taking courage in company, looked past the intimidating bulk of the... Draken Class? I am afraid that I can't remember much about the ships.

In response to the Bonstockian monsters, which ultimately proved to be white elephants, the People's Republic of Spyr built a super battleship of her own, namely the Lyong-ti. This, after the fall of Bonstock, was to stand at the largest battleship on earth, measuring an incredible 350 metres, 87 more than the famous Yamato!

The only competition came from Roycelandia, which maintained several classes of gun-and-armour ships, all probably classifiable as pocket battleships, light battleships, battlecruisers, and large battleships, I think. Perhaps it's much of an assumption, but I think that Roycelandia's battleships were also significantly psychological defences, and practically instruments of gun-boat diplomacy within the empire. During the Coral Sea Incident, the Soviets sunk one with relative ease, using no heavy guns of their own. I feel that most of the Roycelandian battleships fit with the Empire's desire to avoid direct involvement in the current world war, being tools of emprie more than of war.

It was some time before anything else happened. The Indian National Union constructed a small run of monitors mounting two heavy guns, selling one to the United African Republics and one to Strathdonia, and the Indian Soviets built a pair of gun-and-armour vessels that changed designations countless times and ended-up being called armoured gunboats, or something of that sort. That was, I think, about the sum of it.

The Choson People's Republic of Dra-pol started a battleship programme, but abandoned it as far, far too expensive. This project was bizarre in the extreme, and would have been more a mobile assault weapon than a fighting ship. It is hardly more than a footnote in military history.

Then the French restoration saw the kingdom producing its own battleships.

Now, this is where things start to get a bit contentious. People can/should jump in over this section.

France was building battleships in a certain environment. I assumed that they'd be for one of two main purposes, since fighting Roycelandia wasn't on the cards. As it happens, shore-bombardment and Roik-style gunboat diplomacy hasn't been the order of business.

Most people -including those who'd killed Bonstockian super-battleships and more modest Roycelandian ships- relied upon frigate-navies, submarines, or carrier battlegroups. From what I've said here, and from what I've heard from NG, I take it that France's primary aim with its battleships was to confront virtually unarmoured enemies who may be expected to deploy relatively small-calibre guns and penetrating-delay anti-ship missiles.

A few inches of good quality steel armour on a hull of thousands of tonnes would render most modern shipboard guns and Harpoon-alike missile pretty near useless, as the French would well know.

Okay, before I try to address the contentious issues of involved battleships, maybe a quick look at the modern battleships?

The Roycelandian battleships surrender little information. By his own happy admission, Royce really doesn't care about the specifics on that level. They are, though, the Fish, Double-O, Kraken, and Red Dwarf classes.

There's some confusion, here. At on point, Royce said that the Red Dwarf was a single-build, and the biggest battleship on earth. Later, he suggested that the INS Roycelandia was his largest, a modernised equivalent to Yamato, and, as such, substantially smaller than Lyong-ti. Going on the latter suggestion as the more recent and realistic, the Red Dwarf Class would have 3x3 18.1" guns and quite a lot of armour, and would be a one-of-a-kind. The Kraken Class would be armed possibly with 16" guns, and designed to stand in the line of battle, and seems to be similar to the Double-O Class, both of which would likely be designed to serve a bit of gun-boat-diplomacy and a lot of standing in the line of battle against other gun-and-armour ships. The Fish Class has eight 14" guns in a desperately old lay-out, and would be limp fodder against another serious battleship, but no doubt is well able to subdue coastal revolts and provide accurate fire-support to amphibious operations.

I think that the Roycelandian battleships trail a little in technology and in tactical doctrine, but the three larger sorts are impossible to ignore as carriers of a broadside potential that would threaten almost any ship afloat, and they are apparently about the most numerous of any gun-and-armour ships on earth, meaning that they could appear at almost any part of the far-flung Roycelandian Empire.

Spyr's Lyong-ti is another stand-alone monster, and, while Roycelandia's ships sit in a different part of the world war, Spyr's comes, in a way, from a different time all together. Anyone thinking to attack the Lyong peninsula, or the Strainist world at large, must have a plan through which to tackle the Lyong-ti, and this nuclear-powered problem carries probably the biggest guns afloat. Another 3x3 arrangment, Lyong-ti has nine 20" guns, and also carries super-heavyweight torpedoes, though one is at a loss to explain exactly why.

If nothing else, Lyong-ti can lay down an almost ridiculously dangerous broadside, and, so long as she floats, inspires the less-than-superpower nation with confidence and pride. It is hard to say for sure whether or not Sithin would actually be keen to expose the beast to heavy action in a high-intensity conflict. Today, Lyong-ti proves that anything the Holy League can do, the Strainist market-socialists can do, too.

The battleship has a crew of 1,650, and can bear 120 marines.

It is 350m long by 60m beam. Imposing, stable, immobile.

Australasia's Victory displaces a huge total of almost nintety-thousand tonnes standard, is 287 metres long, and over 40 wide. Beside the super-battleship Lyong-ti she'll look small, but is clearly a... heavy-set lady.

Victory's belt reaches above 17", and, at its thickest, armour in certain areas of the design reaches to about 18.9", and even her deck approaches 10". At the extreme, this is less than Yamato (referenced again as a sort of standard of history's greatest monster ships), but for the most part probably has the better of that huge hulk.

The main guns are possibly close to 19.3" bore? This is marginally below the size of Lyong-ti's guns, but by far the largest of any potentially series-produced battleship. Is it worth the extra expense? Weight? Sloth in traverse and elevation? Reduced rate-of-fire? I don't know. If I can be excused saying so, I think that the huge gun may be a bad decision... unless Australasia was somehow able to pre-empt the Soviet battleship design and plan for combat with it. Existing opponents have no chance against these giant weapons if Victory doesn't come up against Lyong-ti. Nothing that France has will do anything other than collapse before a direct hit by these guns, but, in the meanwhile, the French will expect to loose an extra broadside, if not two, as the Australasians attempt to load their guns and lay on to the target. Will this broadsides bounce-off Victory... or land in her escorts, auxiliaries, or even Australasia's aircraft carriers?

There is no need for the French to engage Victory in a gun battle, as they can expect to out-run her in the long-haul, and dodge the attack of this lumbering foe.

On the other hand, Victory has the firepower to tackle Strainist and Soviet large battleships, or, in the unlikely event of conflict between the two, the heaviest Roycelandian battleships.

She also has a fairly good secondary battery for engaging lighter enemies, even gun-armed cruisers, and strong air-defence capacity.

Victory has a fairly large crew of 2,850 hands, suggesting perhaps a slightly limited degree of very-modern automation.

Britain's Courageous Class is four-hulls strong, or will be on its completion. The design is perhaps slightly older than Victory, being a hurried reaction to the discovery of France's first battleship building round.

Courageous is meant to stand in the line of battle against lesser French battleships. It is a conventionally-powered design, unable to out-run the French but confident of matching or besting them in direct combat. It may be judged a conservative, defensive class, designed to protect barely-armoured British and allied carrier-battle fleets rather than to run-down French battleships, which will easily out-run and out-range Courageous.

The British battleships are a very significant thirty-thousand tonnes lighter than Victory, though their deep-load displacement, much of the extra accounted for in oil and ammunition, pushes the Courageous above 69,000 tonnes.

Courageous stretches to almost 272 metres in over-all length, still the smallest ship so far, with a beam of 36.5 metres. This is still slightly longer than Yamato, and just marginally more narrow: A Courageous, being conventially-powered in a world full of nuclear-vessels, must have a steamlined shape to get the most from her oil-fired boilers. She is still wide enough to provide a fairly stable gun platform, but might be giving away just a little something in this, and torpedo-defence, when compared to some of the most mighty foreign designs.

Being so much lighter than some of their contemporaries, the British ships also mount less armour. This is relative, however, and moderated by a number of factors. Sheffield steel is world-renowned, making the most of every inch, and one of the main features of the Courageous design is that it has especially extensive armour coverage. No battleship can fully armour ever inch of its surface area. The main belt, for example, must stop short of either end of the ship, and probably some way below the deck and above the keel. In the case of Courageous, the reach of the belt, and other primary armour, is unusually great. Though the British ships have few totally immune zones when compared to super battleships like Victory, Lyong-ti, and Red Dwarf, they also have few and small serious weak spots.

They are clearly designed to take-on enemies with slightly smaller guns. Were a Courageous to fight a Victory or the Lyong-ti or Red Dwarf/Roycelandia, she would appear under-armoured. Against a fast battleship such as France's, she instead offers few opportunities for the smaller guns to deliver a crippling blow.

Courageous again has a 3x3 gun arrangement. Hers are 16" rifles, marginally less effective than the 20", 19.3", and 18.1" guns of the super battleships, but believed by the British at least to be about the ideal in terms of punch, efficiency, rate-of-fire, and so forth.

Secondary battery is again strong, as is air-defence provision, with no less than sixty VLS cells and nine Evolved-Goalkeeper CIWS evident.

1,560 hands are needed to crew each of Britain's smaller battleships... that being said in spite of the fact that Courageous rivals Yamato in dimension and very nearly in displacement!

The Soviet Utopia Class is the last word in battleship design, or at least it is the latest. Two hulls are planned.

These are over 280 metres long, more than Yamato or Courageous, slightly less than Victory, and over 39 metres in beam, again more than Courageous and Yamato, and very nearly a match for Victory, but substantially less than the bloated Lyong-ti. A displacement near to 63,000 tonnes standard makes the Utopias again bigger than Courageous, but only by a moderate degree, and with a 71,490t full-load total, very close to Yamato.

1,350 war-time crew, or 1,490 as flag, indicate Utopia's youth. These ships are highly automated, and may have superior reaction-times in some respects, though, equally, they may -or may not- suffer teething problems as a result. The small crew helps in enabling Utopia to carry troops and supplies to replenish supporting fleet assets.

Utopia has a main belt reaching up to a thickness of 17", similar to that of Victory, and, as the Soviets are keen to indicate, the armour benefits from a long steel-making tradition and access to Chhattisgarhi iron ore, which is known to be amongst the finest quality on earth. Further, the Utopias have an internal belt from 1.5" to 8", and the outer-belt is inclined heavily. To be frank, it is likely that the new Soviet ships will be almost impossible to hole on the belt.

They are, though, expensive and difficult to maintain. Utopias, when they are laid-up, will probably remain so for long periods of time as crews struggle to service the internal belt. The communists consider this worth-while in light of the fact that they plan only two battleships to Britain's four, or more than that many French and Roycelandian equivalents. In monetary cost this makes sense, but it means also that the Soviets must expect to spend a lot of time with only one operational battleship!

The Utopias have a layered deck, in total approaching the thickness of the mighty Victory, but spaced and designed to defeat a wide range of threats. Torpedo and mine protection is also serious, as the design has a triple-bottom hull and far-reaching lower-belt, and reinforced keel, along with numerous torpedo bulkheads and fuel/ballast/void tanks that, again, make it headache-inducingly difficult to disable a Soviet battleship by sub-surface attack.

Bulkheads have para-aramid lining as splinter protection, and the ships' armour reaches a maximum thickness of 25" on the turret faces, making it incredibly difficult for even super-battleships to directly disable Utopia's guns.

The Utopias, like Courageous, are non-nuclear, but they enjoy Integrated Full Electric Propulsion Systems and advanced pod-mounted screws that further enhance survivability and also improve the battleship's agility next to super-sized rivals.

Utopia is, generally, ahead of everything. However, it can not out-run any rivals by a wide margin, and is probably slower than the French battleships, and range is inferior to that of nuclear-powered ships, though this is accepted by the home-ocean-domination doctrine of the building nation.

With a 4x3 arrangement of 52 calibre 16" guns the Utopias also manage to out-gun Courageous and Cherbourg, and arguably compete with larger designs like Victory and perhaps even Lyong-ti. These are clearly meant to stand in line against foreign battleships.

The secondary battery at first seems modest next to Courageous and Victory, having fewer and smaller guns than either, but this conventional arsenal is backed-up by Evolved Pinaka rockets that give an interesting new dimension to the design, and enable a bombardment reach beyond the range of heavy guns. Anti-air defence is only marginally behind that of the British and Australasian ships, having 32 VLS silos for high-agility short/mid range missiles, and 8 world-beating CIWS stations with guns and optically-guided short-range missiles. More impressive is the anti-submarine defence as provided by two-dozen launch-ready rockets of the Indian-Soviet Seahammer system.

France's Cherbourg Class is a fast battleship with numbers second only to Roycelandia's gun-and-armour fleet.

Built by a nation of size equivalent roughly to Britain, Spyr, and Australasia, not half of Roycelandia, and hardly fifteen percent of the Soviet Commonwealth's proportions, this large run has been taxing, certainly. But the French have good cause to pay, and have proven keen to deploy their battleships against less heavily armoured and often carrier-oriented enemies.

The Cherbourgs have a lot of guns, but, at about 13", by battleship standards, small ones unlikely to threaten any of their foreign equivalents save perhaps some of the smaller Roycelandian designs. In fact they have smaller guns than Roycelandia's smallest battleships, or even the Hindustani monitors now in African hands. These ships have absolutely no chance against Courageous, Red Dwarf/Roycelandia, Lyong-ti, Victory, or Utopia, but can, if they have their range, quite easily sink just about any other ship in the world, be it merchant, cruiser, or aircraft carrier. They also have almost epic secondary batteries, enabling them to take-on a whole line of lesser warships such as modern thin-skinned destroyers, frigates, cruisers, corvettes, and aircraft carriers.

Nuclear powered, the Cherbourgs have longer legs than the battleships of Britain and India, and they are possibly the fastest of the modern world's battleships, giving them at least a chance to escape the fire of heavier contenders.

The end?

Now, on the Cherbourgs especially, I have improvised somewhat. I think that the general description makes sense, but am prepared to be corrected. Specifics such as gun size are based on existing figures, but some things have been ignored. Allow me to follow this through...

I have ignored the 43 knot claim. Nobody else can manage much more than 30 at a dash. I assume that the Cherbourgs can probably maintain a speed in the mid-30s for long enough to escape any foreign battleship, and that they are the fastest battleships existing in the world... just not that fast. I think that the effect is the same?

I have also neglected to mention their ballistic missiles. This may seem like a suggestion to rob France of some of its capability, but I think that it is absolutely necessary, and not a great loss. France has shore-based silos, I think, and aircraft-delivered warheads, so shouldn't miss this much. The idea of sticking ICBMs on fast battleships just... I can't reconcile it with reality, I'm afraid. They'd become legitimate first-strike targets, they'd cost tens of billions of dollars each and totally bankrupt France over night, and I don't think that they'd offer a major tactical or strategic advantage to France, really. I wouldn't dream of denying France its nuclear deterrant, I just can't imagine that it would be carried aboard her battleships. It'd mean that they'd never, ever be deployed in the line of battle, or to attack carrier forces, or anything else, really.

On the other hand, I've also ignored the six-thousand-plus crew claim. This seems silly. No battleship needs that many men aboard, and it would indicate a gross degree of pre-modern activity. It would seem to suggest that absolutely everything is done by manpower and that computers and machines do nothing, which would reduce the fighting capacity of the ship as well as making it an absolute hell-on-water for the unfortunate sailors, whose moral would be quite destroyed within days of deployment.

Also, I've dismissed reference to armour thickness, displacement, and dimension. They are, as they stand, mathematic impossibilities, there's no way around that.

I have assumed that the Cherbourg is probably comparable in length to some of the other large foreign ships, maybe even longer than some (she has four primary turrets, right?), but that she is reasonably slender. This ought to help her speed, a primary advantage of the class next to everyone else's ships, and, though it would normally make for a less-stable gun-platform, Cherbourg's relatively small guns should make that less important.

Assessment?

Lyong-ti is incredibly huge, a stable platform from which to lob monster shells, and probably ruddy difficult to sink. It is alone, poorly supported, lumbering, an obvious target, and unlikely to be deployed where it may be seriously challenged. But who would challenge her?

Roycelandia's battleships are varied; sometimes bogged-down by their nation's doctrine and aims; often vulnerable; but always threatening, in almost every possible theatre around the globe, and perhaps of extra use in subduing problems that don't come with battleships of their own. They certainly aren't scared of spears and AK-47s.

Victory must be some major point of pride for Australasian industry, a symbol of the former colony's ascension to the world stage. To lose such a ship would be almost immeasurably horrific for the Australasian nation, psychologically, strategically, and economically. On the other hand, it is amongst the elite in being able to face and exchange blows with any other ship on earth. Like Lyong-ti, a possible slow rate-of-fire might make the design less than ideal in certain fleet-oriented actions, which may fit better with Strainist than Australasian strategy.

Courageous is from the outset meant almost exclusively to protect British fleets and supplies from Cherbourgs. The design would probably struggle in Asia, fighting other heavy battleships, but can confidently see-off a French raider. It's just that it can't chase one down...

Utopia is upon the cutting-edge, and will take that edge into action against any opponent. Possibly the best balanced of any current battleship, it may not have the clear-cut domination ability of other types in their specialist areas. The Utopia can fight anyone, escape anyone, but, again, can probably not corner a French battleship that doesn't want to be cornered. Standing and fighting, it'd beat Cherbourg or Courageous, and most Roycelandian battleships, but one would be hard pressed to decide on its chances against the super-battleships.

Cherbourg is the fastest battleship going, designed to take-out more ordinary modern warships and charge-down carrier-oriented forces. In this role it is superior to any foreign battleship, and represents a doubtless deep-seated worry for anti-League maritime commanders. Almost any other modern battleship can see-off a Cherbourg with some confidence, but is likely to be frustrated if it aims to make sure that the French battleship will not simply return to fight another day. This class is at once inferior to all others and yet perhaps the one best adapted to its place in the modern world.

All right, half of that is probably likely to be contested, but, er, just take it as a Walmingtonian perspective, which may be based upon best-guess work and shaky-intelligence. I don't know, what do you suppose needs changing or discussing? Where have I missed the mark and what's bang on?

All this excitement about battleships begs the question: why? Sure, pumping up a battleship with enough funding and technology can make it stand up to a modern aircraft carrier, but the money would be much better spent on developing more advanced aircraft carriers, at least in my humble opinion. The battle we're currently having, as Mac pointed out, has been severely unrealistic in terms of the missiles getting through air defenses; modern defense systems can only do so much. Once the defenses are cut through, air power becomes incredibly effective at smashing through defenses. The Lyong-Ti, for example, is just a gigantic floating target for both air and submarine assaults.

The whole "race for a bigger battleship" concept is also only useful when everyone buys into the battleship craze. Since thick guns aren't really needed to take down a carrier, only the Cherbourg, with its lightning fast speed is useful here.



There is a reason, after all, for why in the real world, aircraft carriers dominate and battleships have become little more than relics. That is not to say that, if advanced enough, battleships can't be deadly weapons of war, but the reliance on them seems to me, at least, to be more an aesthetic fascination with battleships rather than an acknowledgement of the combat realities of the day. (Hence why the Quinntonians, Chinese, and Soviets all largely ignore the battleship <although the Bedgellens have made one recent entry, it seems to be more of a propaganda effort than a shift in naval strategy, since only two are being produced>)

Wellll, actually, the French and Roycelandians both have more battleships than carriers, the British plan six carriers and four battleships, the Spyrians have one battleship to no carriers, the Soviets will have two battleships and about four fleet carriers, and the Australasians have a mix, too.

In AMW, the battleship never quite went away. In reality, nation A dropped them because nation B hadn't any left after the war.

Battleships like our Courageous Class are a fair bit cheaper than modern fleet carriers, as well.

And, something so modern and well protected as the Soviet Utopias will not really give a darn if it is showered with every single Exocet, Ottomat, Penguin, Harpoon, Qian Wei, Sea Eagle, Brom, and Switchblade missile in the world, and a couple of light, medium, and heavyweight torpedoes to the bargain. Something else entirely is required, and other battleships are one potential something!

The issue with what's got through and what hasn't, so far, is mainly explained by sheer superiority of defending forces which, after all, are only defending (rather than attacking) because... they're kept at a distance by nothing other than... battleships!

The BAe Meteor is based generally on the... Meteor, a real-life project, all be it one that is yet incomplete. But AMW Britain started it the better part of a decade earlier, and spent more on it, without faffing-about with differently-minded foreign partners, bringing it into service while France was launching seven or more battleships and Russia was reversing the free-fall decline of a huge nation, et cetera.

So, people can use ducted ramjet technology, but I couldn't use electrothermal-chemical technology? Well... then. The Meteor has a no escape zone of 80 kilometers, which is about the range you fired them at I believe - and I fired my missiles from a good distance from your fleet, I believe. The thread won't load for me at this time. Nevertheless, I'd expect that your missiles would have to be approaching rather quickly if you wanted to catch me before I dropped my missiles. From what I'm reading here it seems as if you suddenly extended the envelope of no escape by over 20 kilometers, which would mean it's a larger missile [due to the need for more fuel]. Furthermore, I'm still skeptical about any claims for what would sound like supermanueverability at 60 kilometers + for the Meteor, given that it still hasn't finished developement - it sounds more like a goal; sorta like the goal that current gun developers have to achieve velocities exceeding 2,500 meters per second with electrothermal-chemical technologies.

I used to have a really good PDF on ducted ramjets but I lost it when I was in Spain since my harddrive was wiped out - I now have two that mirror each other, just in case.

In other words, I'd think that some manueverability is A-OK, but the manueverability to match a 4.5 generation fighter at that range? Fo' real.

All we've really done, in military terms, is unload a forward expedition and deploy some aircraft, including one squadron of Typhoon for defence and using the place as a waypoint for Nimrod maritime-patrol, AEW, and tanker aircraft.

Alright, that was more in response to the long range radar thing that TCB said.

I know that you were gone, but that doesnt' change in any way the fact that we'd been over so much of what we've since rehased before you left, nor that I may be slightly tired of it.


You may be tired of it, but I'm not sure if it was gone over very thoroughly... at least, on the topic of the missile.

Regardless, I'll re-write that first part, probably lose a few aircraft, drop the remaining missiles early and turn around, and then leave the naval battle up to Nova Gaul to roleplay with the hope that if he sees things going badly he'll allow my small task force to retreat back to Spain to regroup with the other carrier task force.

I am very happy with the analysis that you have provided, and I think we should all take it a definitive. I agree with many of your assessments, and I think that your take on the Cherbourg should clear up many misconceptions about it. It is much like, “against battleships, it leaves something to be desired, but against everything else, it dominates, and is uniquely designed to capitalize on the weaknesses of Carrier Battle Group based navies.” That, and though it can’t stand toe-to-toe with other battleships, it doesn’t have to; it is just too damn fast.

I will say now that Quinntonia will be taking this under advisement and begin looking into revitalizing its battleship fleet to deal with this environment, especially considering how naked we suddenly seem to be. The Quinntonian Navy has purchased a few Krakens, but I am very nervous how the Mary Mother of God Carrier Battle Groups would do against a couple of Cherbourg’s all of the sudden. And the super-battleship department makes me shudder. Though, I guess we would just fall back on the fact that we still outnumber every navy in the world combined when it comes to Fleet Carriers.

WWJD
Amen.

So now we have come in a full circle-

*outlines a circle with his finger*

-first there was the switch from "speed is armour" from those early days before WWI to "armour needs to be amour" of WWI and II then it comes all the way around again with III.

Neat, ain't it!

Indeed, I think that the USQ is basically alone when it comes to what we might call super-carriers (if the largest battleships are often called super-battleships). The Chinese don't seem much interested, apparently favouring USSR-scale submarine forces, the Indian Soviets have struggled for years with their carrier programme, the Roycelandians have too many battleships to have much left for carriers (I think they have something going on that way?), the Russian navy still kinda sucks, the French carriers aren't half the size of Quinntonia's, and Britain's new carriers, which are vastly more modern than Quinntonia's, have an aircraft capacity a clear step down from the likes of a Nimitz. The French would probably struggle to get close, but I suppose they might do it close to home waters, with some sort of land-based air cover, if the US came after France herself.

Interesting to see what the Quinntonians come up with... reactivate a couple of Iowas, which might possibly be the world's second-fastest battleships even today and have a primary battery very close to that of the Courageous Class (guns in the same number, distribution, and bore, but of course an older design), but could be more modern and would only be better protected than the Cherbourgs and Fish Class, and possssibly either of the two mid-range Roycelandian types? Or possibly something born out of a Montana redesign, maybe with nuclear power and guided-missiles, to result in something approaching the offensive and defensive strength of the Utopias? *Watches this space*

How many Victories does Australasia have, by the way? Is it a one-off, or no? I can't seem to remember. May be too hungover.

Ah, I'm going off on one, again. Best go and get some greasy sustenance.

Wellll, actually, the French and Roycelandians both have more battleships than carriers, the British plan six carriers and four battleships, the Spyrians have one battleship to no carriers, the Soviets will have two battleships and about four fleet carriers, and the Australasians have a mix, too.

In AMW, the battleship never quite went away. In reality, nation A dropped them because nation B hadn't any left after the war.

Battleships like our Courageous Class are a fair bit cheaper than modern fleet carriers, as well.

And, something so modern and well protected as the Soviet Utopias will not really give a darn if it is showered with every single Exocet, Ottomat, Penguin, Harpoon, Qian Wei, Sea Eagle, Brom, and Switchblade missile in the world, and a couple of light, medium, and heavyweight torpedoes to the bargain. Something else entirely is required, and other battleships are one potential something!

The issue with what's got through and what hasn't, so far, is mainly explained by sheer superiority of defending forces which, after all, are only defending (rather than attacking) because... they're kept at a distance by nothing other than... battleships!

I'm not quite sure what you mean by your first point. I am aware of the fact that they all have a mix, it's just that battleships are over represented in comparison to real navies.

I'm quite sure that there exists a type of bomb that could take down a Soviet Utopia; if bunkers can be sliced through then it's not much of a leap to say even obscenely armored battleships like the Utopia can.

Can, potentially, but steel and concrete don't behave the same when exposed to certain stresses, eh.
A ship might only have, say, twice the armour thickness of a battle tank, but, with the size of the armour sheets, it's just so much mass...

Anyway, yeah, in reality, nations don't sail battleships because many can't, and the ones that could are more or less all on the same side. If India underwent communist revolution next year, and a few Latin American countries anarchist revolution, the whole world would try to destroy them, and, had they the technology, they might just launch a battleship or two, to toss-aside the unarmoured fleets sent against them.

Okay, they probably wouldn't, but it might not be a bad idea.

A well designed, well deployed, and well-crewed battleship can be incredibly difficult to sink, compared to an aircraft carrier. If you think about the differences between now and WWII, when it comes to what you can throw at a ship, okay, there are many. But how many are designed to penetrate thousand of tonnes of armour? In the case of Utopia -I shan't speak for others- relatively few existing weapons can, singly, do much to the ship. They're all designed to destroy ships that have, like, 0.5% of the protection.

Certainly submarines can sink them (we sank Roycelandia's Elliot Carver with a fleet-submarine, after all!), but then submarines can sink aircraft carriers, too! And it is much harder to take-out a well-protected battleship with modern torpedoes that aren't designed to do that. I suppose that it's a question of balance.

Well, there's the LS-20K heavy penetrating ordinance over in the AMW Defence thread that we built specifically for the Roycelandian battleships a while back, but we need land based bombers for those.

The former Sino had mention of a supercarrier, the Chiang Kai Shek, capable of carrying 120 odd aircraft. The only combat it saw was the attack on Japann back in early AMW days where it was disabled by two kamikazes. (I'm not too sure how that would work out nowdays due to the revised timeline which states the Japann war took place in the late 60s). Anyway, Beijing's military honchos now view the carrier as rather vulnerable and has shifted much of the navy's firepower onto SSGN submarines and arsenal ships.

Can, potentially, but steel and concrete don't behave the same when exposed to certain stresses, eh.
A ship might only have, say, twice the armour thickness of a battle tank, but, with the size of the armour sheets, it's just so much mass...

Anyway, yeah, in reality, nations don't sail battleships because many can't, and the ones that could are more or less all on the same side. If India underwent communist revolution next year, and a few Latin American countries anarchist revolution, the whole world would try to destroy them, and, had they the technology, they might just launch a battleship or two, to toss-aside the unarmoured fleets sent against them.

Okay, they probably wouldn't, but it might not be a bad idea.

A well designed, well deployed, and well-crewed battleship can be incredibly difficult to sink, compared to an aircraft carrier. If you think about the differences between now and WWII, when it comes to what you can throw at a ship, okay, there are many. But how many are designed to penetrate thousand of tonnes of armour? In the case of Utopia -I shan't speak for others- relatively few existing weapons can, singly, do much to the ship. They're all designed to destroy ships that have, like, 0.5% of the protection.

Certainly submarines can sink them (we sank Roycelandia's Elliot Carver with a fleet-submarine, after all!), but then submarines can sink aircraft carriers, too! And it is much harder to take-out a well-protected battleship with modern torpedoes that aren't designed to do that. I suppose that it's a question of balance.

Well, that's only because in RL there was no need for such hull penetrating weaponry; if AMW has such a proliferation of battleships then I'd assume the world's aerial arsenals include bombs capable of taking on a battleship.

Well, if anyone's developed any, fair enough. The battleship thing is fairly new on a wide scale, though. With the exception of Bonstock's super battleships -the answer to which was Lyong-ti- Roycelandia was pretty much alone in having battleships for a long time, until France kicked it off.

Anyway, if you can get a bomb on top of a battleship you can get it anywhere, and you're essentially saying that there's no point to aircraft carriers, either (which, actually, appears to be China's position!).

Ah, well, nobody's forcing the Combine to build any. In fact, that you haven't is one of the reasons we've only forked-out the resources for two. If we discovered that you were gathering materials for one of your own, we'd probably put the Utopia into series production =)

"France's Cherbourg Class is a fast battleship with numbers second only to Roycelandia's gun-and-armour fleet.

Built by a nation of size equivalent roughly to Britain, Spyr, and Australasia, not half of Roycelandia, and hardly fifteen percent of the Soviet Commonwealth's proportions, this large run has been taxing, certainly. But the French have good cause to pay, and have proven keen to deploy their battleships against less heavily armoured and often carrier-oriented enemies.

The Cherbourgs have a lot of guns, but, at about 13", by battleship standards, small ones unlikely to threaten any of their foreign equivalents save perhaps some of the smaller Roycelandian designs. In fact they have smaller guns than Roycelandia's smallest battleships, or even the Hindustani monitors now in African hands. These ships have absolutely no chance against Courageous, Red Dwarf/Roycelandia, Lyong-ti, Victory, or Utopia, but can, if they have their range, quite easily sink just about any other ship in the world, be it merchant, cruiser, or aircraft carrier. They also have almost epic secondary batteries, enabling them to take-on a whole line of lesser warships such as modern thin-skinned destroyers, frigates, cruisers, corvettes, and aircraft carriers.

Nuclear powered, the Cherbourgs have longer legs than the battleships of Britain and India, and they are possibly the fastest of the modern world's battleships, giving them at least a chance to escape the fire of heavier contenders. "

Ahh, bon Walmington. Thank you, I think you have just cleared it all up. My many thanks. Will have something up by the eve, sorry about delays, c'est la vie. I agree 100% with your take on this.

Actually, USQ has 3 Battleships, though they are a more reactionary purchase and a fairly recent addition to the Navy. Some years ago we commissioned Roycelandia to build for us 3 Kraken Class Super Dreadnaughts which are currently serving our Navy as its only battleships. I almost forgot that I had done that, but two are serving in the Seventh Fleet and one in the Second.

But honestly, they were just a reaction to what everyone else had, I kind of figured, that if everyone else had battleships, I should have one too. Basically, we are reviewing this new “English Study” and have concluded that our battleships are not the best, but the only Navy we see needing them against, would perhaps be the French, in which case, they would be used to scare of the Cherbourgs as my aircraft rained bloody hell from above and my AEGIS Cruisers and so on launched so many cruise missiles that in theory, amour wouldn’t be a factor.

I dunno, after that though, I am feeling pretty vulnerable in regards to the whole battleship situation, so I may look into adding a couple more to the Fleet. Personally, I think they just need to be big and scary enough to hold a line for awhile against other battleships and protect my Aircraft Carrier Fleet.

But, as for my poor Nimitz’s being outdated! For shame! But, I must admit that, the wave of the future is my new Carrier Flagship, the Jesse Obed, of the Jesse Obed Class. It is actually a CVN-21 Supercarrier, which is the planned next step for the RL American Navy anyways. I only have one right now, and the Nimitz will remain for quite awhile, but I think that the Jesse Obed can pretty much stack against anything in the world, but I am here to be corrected. IF not, I would probably argue that the need for a cap on Modern Weapons needs to be more strict or something, as I am only using real tech, even my F-22s and the Jesse Obed are real designs.

Edit: BTW, this diiscussion sparked something in me, and I decided to make apost about it on my invision thread. Tell me what you think.

http://z9.invisionfree.com/NS_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=5&st=60

WWJD
Amen.

Well, I'll admit it brings a smile to see the Lyong-ti standing tall amidst its fellow battleships... at least the bloated thing is good for something.

The Lyong-ti is a ship built for a battle that is never going to come, against ships that are now rusting on the ocean floor. Its colossal scale, and cost, make little sense without its counterpart the Draken... it could, I think, go toe-to-toe with any other battleship afloat and come away victorious (or at least still floating), but I doubt anyone would bother with the attempt. So it floats about firing broadsides on May Day and eating money better spent elsewhere.

A discussion of AMW battleships would be incomplete without the Draken... classed by its makers with the surprisingly honest title of 'terror ship'. One might substitute the Lyong-ti in comparisons as a sister to the Draken, for they shared many elements of design... length and calibre of guns, as I recall, though I think the Draken was more narrow (keeping proportional to the Yamato) and had a larger crew. But statistics are probably not the most important element of the Draken.

The Federal Republic of Bonstock built nine ships of the Draken class, as I recall, and I've always believed that they were a key factor in the collapse of the Republic, a sort of symbol of the rampant military spending that was was bankrupting the society. The resources eaten up by the Draken project alone must have been astronomical, particularly as Bonstock launched more than one near-simultaneously (implying redundant production facilities).

This was undoubtably a lesson the French, as they prepared their own battleship fleet, took to heart, and which probably influenced the decision to go with a relatively light design in the Cherbourg. The noble admirals of Versailles would want the glorious display of battleships lined up along the shore to sound the cannonade, and would not mind straining the backs of peasants to do it, but Bonstock's collapse would remind that going too big could see the kingdom falter.

Not that such changes anything that has been discussed, but perhaps it gives even further context in having everything make sense.


A further point on the Draken, to the detriment of the Lyong-ti, is that none of them survived the fall of Bonstock. Some (three?) were sunk at the Sakishimas, under withering fire from massed attacks coming from aircraft, ships, and submarines. The remainder were scuttled to prevent capture or defeat. Given the sheer expense and weight of armour on a Draken, knowledge of their defeat has probably injected a healthy degree of caution into most fleet commanders.



Erm, finally, the torpedo tubes on the Lyong-ti... not the most useful things, really, but they were meant to mount Strainist anti-battleship torpedos, either armour-piercing varieties or rather complex variants meant to detonate at the keel of an enemy ship, warping rudder and screws so an enemy battleship couldn't flee or pursue (depending on how matters were going for the Lyong-ti). If Bonstock sent its Drakens at Lyong en-masse, the plan was to load the heavy torpedoes with nuclear warheads, to try and knock a few of Bonstock's more numerous vessels out of combat before their massed firepower overwhelmed the lone Strainist heavy.

They would have been better served leaving such weapons to the submarines, really, or perhaps expendable FAC.

Weeelll... I actually have four Victory class ships, one in the Atlantic, two in the Med and one at home/loitering around the New Caledonian islands.

But, in light of your assessment, I'm thinking of drawing down some of the specs, there. Most likely, it would be a change from 19.3 inch to 16 or 15 inch guns (I'd say 17, but who the hell uses those)? Anyway, heck. If I don't, it still works, I guess. We built them over a matter of decades (the last, Iron Duke, was launched in... 1986 or so. Nah, I'll leave it how it is for now.

I'm also tempted to draw up plans for a more affordable battleship, kind of like a Courageous. The Temeraire is underarmoured and fast (33 knots), the Victory is overarmed and slow to fire. But those wouldn't show up for a looong time yet.

I'd say keep a large-ish gun on the Victory, though I suppose if one is being entirely practical 16" ought to do it... if Australasia's battleship program dates back several decades, then its first units seem a likely response to the launch of Bonstock's first Drakens (Raleigh would probably have tried to find one, given proximity between Australia and the Indonesian archipelago, and Bonstock's reputation for agression).

--------------

On an unrelated note, and perhaps not relevant, some stuff has come up vis-a-vis certain Spanish corporations mentioned here and there. At least two (one in oil and one in telecom, I believe) have claimed a firm profit base from which they are launching expansion efforts in Morocco and newly-acquired territories. This base is said to root in South America, where the RL equivalents of such companies have substantial holdings.

I'm wondering a bit at this... Neo-Anarchos is not likely to host any such ventures even under the best of circumstances, while Australasia is directly at war with the League and the Southern Confederacy has been examining an alliance with the Germans/South Africans/Israelis that seems to have an anti-League bent. It hardly seems an environment that would provide success for Spanish corporations, and once you take all of that away there really isnt much of South America left in which to do business.

Before the war, we were perfectly happy to have Spanish ...pesos? Euros? flowing into our coffers, but obviously now that will all have been nationalized, or at least impounded for the time being. I mean, even if we didn't like them so much, we'd still take their money.

Some of SA (Paraguay, some coastal bits, Fr. Guiana) are probably still open to them. However, none of the oil tankers'll get very far unless they're so close to Royce's home waters that I don't dare sortie combat ships there. And by that, I mean that they're being escorted by a Dreadnought of some kind.

I think it is time we started disussing practicality of some of these battleship and carroer fleets, First, we need to really look at who can pay for them, an second, I am by no means a naval expert, but now that I am researching it, it seems an almost universal opinion that battleships, even when armed with significant anti-aircraft capabilities, are most vulnerable to massed air attacks.
And that seems to date back to WW2, when every Yamato Class was sunk by planes, and though tech with which to build battleships has increased tenfold since then, air tech has increased a hundredfold.

What does everyone think about that? Just looking for opinions.

WWJD
Amen.

Well... who can't?

As to tech developments... I saw French Mirage run directly at British warships and drop unguided ordnance against them. The only change between that, and how it would have happened in 1956, is that the carrying planes were going a little bit faster... and presenting a slightly bigger target.

In contrast, the response was not by optically-guided slow-firing guns and a few manually-traversed machineguns, but low-signature supersonic VTOL strike-fighters with BVRAAMs and hyper-agile short-range missiles, and computer-guided shipboard rapid-fire guns and long-range missiles.

Yamato was indeed sunk by aircraft... three or four hundred of them, while on an obvious suicide mission. If you have an aircraft carrier that could have survived that, I'd like to see it! Musashi probably took enough hits to sink half a carrier battle group before she went down.

I dunno, I'm not too sure what you're getting at, Q. In the Glorious 12th of June, British airpower did prove significant, we've seen that, and gun-and-armour played their sigificant part for the French. I just have to shrug, and continue on, really...

We've got more submarines than Western Europe, anyway ;)

Okay, I know that there are concerns about my being able to afford what I claim. That doesn't especially surprise me, since I'm RPing Australia, for goodness' sake. Well, Australia+, but whatever.

My reasoning goes like this: First of all, the Knights Admiral have a plan for baisically world domination, and it includes a bunch of ships. Hence, we find the money to pay for said ships. Secondly, the people are pretty attracted to the wealth, prestige and economic growth enjoyed by C18th, 19th and early 20th Britain, and they're willing to sacrifice now to get it later. Weird, for a democracy, but we're a nation that grew up in Walmington's shadow, and we're like the little brother who wants to be as big and cool as Daddy was, before he got laid off and became an alcoholic.

Uh, yeah.

Secondly, we have a small trading empire. Australia itself is well suited for this, with a fair few natural harbours and a bunch of neighbours (The ex-Bonstock islands, now Sujava, et. al, Wendselybury Islands, China, India, Japan).

That means that we have an available pool of shipbuilders and seamen. Coupled with a politically close relationship with Quinntonia (perhaps the only thing to transfer from RL Australia to Australasia), we have the expertise and manpower to build fairly complex vessels. Now, I'm kind of at fleet-limit right now, and the current construction won't bear fruit until... well, one or two NS years, a few months RL. Wartime economy ftw.

I hope that works. If it doesn't... um?

Well, it's a trade off. You can have an amazing navy but a weak Army and Air Force. Putin's Russia, for example, had a world beating Air Force and Army, but an almost non-existant navy. The Combine has an excellent Army, a strong navy, and a weak air force.

Military spending depends substantially on what sort of government is in power. Obviously we spent much more during Liu's junta than we are now as a quasi-democratic government, with the resulting sell-off of much of our carrier fleet and Xiaguo's old fleet.

The Pacific is beginning seem rather benign now that we're not trying to invade Japan or Taiwan, and Beijing doesn't really have ambitions on the Indian or Atlantic oceans, so there may be a possibility of further downsizing.

Hey all. I just wanted to address the issue of Libyas recent deployment of nuclear weapons. Before this now becomes a nuclear war, and since hit first I reserve now the right to launch my arsenal, I wanted to bring this up OOCly, as I am sure no one wants a nuclear holocaust.

Nuclear weapons deployed against French forces would bring immediate and massive nuclear strikes against the sub-continent, with ICBM's. Britain would be hit too, for fear she would launch, and the French would probably take down the Australasians as well.

When the cat is let out of the bag, we all must deal with the consequences.

I'm wondering a bit at this... Neo-Anarchos is not likely to host any such ventures even under the best of circumstances, while Australasia is directly at war with the League


Yea, which is why I tried to leave out what was his; given that he is not exactly friendly to my type of government.

and the Southern Confederacy has been examining an alliance with the Germans/South Africans/Israelis that seems to have an anti-League bent.[/quote]

Hee, I'm glad that it seems this way. ;)

It hardly seems an environment that would provide success for Spanish corporations, and once you take all of that away there really isnt much of South America left in which to do business.

Willink is, IIRC, Brazil, while I'd venture to guess that Argentina? [Franberry?] also doesn't mind a substantial Spanish interest in the country.

What does Neo-Anarchoes own anyways? What about Chile, Ecuador, Paraguay and Bolivia?



Before the war, we were perfectly happy to have Spanish ...pesos? Euros?


Peseta most likely.


Some of SA (Paraguay, some coastal bits, Fr. Guiana) are probably still open to them. However, none of the oil tankers'll get very far unless they're so close to Royce's home waters that I don't dare sortie combat ships there. And by that, I mean that they're being escorted by a Dreadnought of some kind.


The petroleum that is mined by Repsol doesn't normally return to Spain; I don't think Repsol does the mining either. Repsol provides the technicians to run those plants and then sells them in the country; they probably sell back for Spain for cheaper prices, but now I can get that from the Germans [North Sea oil], and new plants in Morocco. I'd guess that during the beginning of the war my petroleum supplies were seen as threatened, but French Algeria provides most of my natural gas, I'd say, and so would Russia - at least in the beginning. So, Repsol, for the most part, is making a profit there, not in Spain.

Oh, before anybody responds about Mauretania, which France says is now mine [?], I want to get in a post. Unfortunately, I work tomorrow for at least an hour; I don't know if I'll have time to get a post in. It takes me a while to post, and this one will be a long one [I have the first part of it written on paper, which is what I do when I'm not in class, but in the Uni.].

No, they wouldn't, NG.

I have to say, I think you're just saying that to avoid fighting on another front, which is something that would have been better avoided by not starting wars on multiple fronts against multiple ideologies, really.

The French king knows full well that the instant he starts using offensive nuclear weapons, he is dead. Not in a metaphorical sense. He, himself, his royal person, is going to be killed. His entire bloodline is going to be killed. His empire is going to end in an instant. His whole nation will be put to ruin, and, if it rises again, it will be without even the barest trace of his royal blood in the leadership.

Further, every one of his allies will abandon him, not that it matters to a deadman.

You have repeatedly deployed WMDs in first strikes. So far, nobody has fired back in kind.

Just... you know... no.

Despite your arguments, which though proving that I have used napalm (which is not a WMD) and Chlorine Gas (which is the mildest form of one perhaps, and deployed in a singular and small theatre), notwithstanding the VX attack---which I would have accepted a response in kind too---, the fact remains you have deployed nuclear weapons, and therefore I reserve the right to respond in kind.

Now, why wouldnt I just nuke Libya? Because, once someone shows they are capable of deploying nuclear weapons, moreover deploying several, if a nuclear counter attack against all targets is not launched at once I will be doomed anyway, to be nuked if resistance is too stiff. Im not trying to be a jerk, but its simply not realistic that someone taking direct orders from the Soviet Bloc, boasting of it, launches nukes and there will no retroprocity.

Louis-Auguste, from what people have said, is as good as dead already, and would have no problem going into the bunker after launching the ICBM's.

In short, if I get nuked, you cannot expect less than an equal response. That is the long and short of it, and is without doubt logical and realistic.

You -as in France- didn't get nuked. A WMD-delivery vector was hit with WMD.

You can't really make a habit of genocide and WMD-deployment and expect people to make no attempt to stop it when it comes to them [confused look]

Anyway, the point was, and remains, that it would be totally unrealistic to start deploying offensive nuclear weapons because of Tripoli's defences.

Im sorry, I am afraid that I must disagree with you, and stand behind my points.

With the entire world now lining up to fight, a nuke will not be ignored, but will trigger what is obvious. Also, there is a clear and conspicuous difference between attack bombers with aircraft and detonating several huge nuclear weapons.

I see this as logical, and so am forced to humbly disagree.

BG, do you have any perception of popular opinion? The word "nuke" terrifies most people. Look at the realworld response to the American nuclear bunker buster program; even though it serves absolutely valid tactical purposes, and leaves most radiation underground, the stigma attached to nukes is too great, and frankly, appropriately so. Nuclear usage is on a slippery slope; the accidental usage of nukes in the Russian civil war nearly got half the world involved, after all.

You can't get away with repeated WMD attacks by saying that if anyone defends against them, you'll take the ball and go home, which, as you know full well, is the effect of, "massive nuclear strikes" in AMW.

I'm sorry, but, since I really don't think that you're stupid or that -judging by the scale and quality of most of your IC posts- you tend to take your part in AMW lightly, you knew that, with a conventional defence, the attack you'd contrived was to have the impact of a nuclear strike, and was, basically, using WMDs to end a situation.

In that context, it was perfectly proper to use WMDs -designed specifically for defence, within Libyan territory- to nip that highly questionable action in the bud.

The alternative was just to have an RP dictated (or potentially shut-down and arguably ruined) by your WMD strike. So, I stopped it. Makes sense OOC. And, IC, it is exactly what the Libyans and Soviets would have done, as it was the only way to save the Libyan state from collapse, and the lives of 1.7 million civilians.

I'm right.

A few things.

One, France did not "repeadetly use WMD." As established by the Geneva convention, White Phosphorous, which is basically what NG used, is not a WMD. The small amounts of chlorine gas that NG used in small scale engagements was not nearly enough to warrant a nuclear strike, and wasn't likely reported on anyhow due to its effectiveness.

Two, it doesn't matter if his conventional forces had the effectiveness of a nuclear strike. There is a clear psychological division between WMDs and conventional weapons, the kind that allows American forces to use MOABs stronger than low yield nukes without criticism, while even a low yield nuke would be roundly condemned. Nuclear weapons and power are feared, and have an inherent slippery slope attached to them. Your actions were tactically logical, but an absolute PR disaster.

Well, this is progress, since you accept that it was the right thing to do. You do accept that, since you've acknowledged that it was tactically sound because the alternative was slaughter by WMDs.


But beyond that, again, my main point. NG was attempting to shut-down the contest by using WMDs, and I, as an AMW player, chose to stop it. If I'd known that people were going to fail so deeply to understand, I would have used OOC means initially to take issue with this sort of tactic.

Libya, by the way, doesn't even have a single offensive nuclear weapon in its arsenal, and no chemical weapons that can reach a major Algerian town, let alone France.

As it happens, Libya used relatively small nukes, in the sky, over its own waters, in defence, against 100% military targets, killing 0 civilians, resisting an attack that was soon exposed as a mass nerve-gas assault on a population centre, carried-out by the world's least popular nation, against a nation ten times smaller than itself.

Ah, yes, the world will always come down on the side of a French soldier! [cough] Especially one carrying nerve gas against a city.

BG, try and see things OOCly from my point of view for a moment.

I single handedly now have to fight the entire world, for a stretch of the poorest part of Africa after withdrawing from Asia. Barring that as rediculous in any realistic sense, obviously some nations have an agenda just as 'wicked' as the French (BG, LRR) and some are just piling in with last minute security (exhibit China). Considering everything, and knowing I will soon have to fight a huge red army from India, I had no choice but to make the attack, the first true WMD assault I have yet launched.

So I remain where I stand, but of course am willing to compromise OOCly if it we come to that. Also, you are also probably at war with Roycelandia now, I cant imagine he would let you inavde his territory, especially when Libya is a satellite of Beth Gellert.

Wait. A mass nerve gas attack? Sh*t. It is getting late here, because I absolutely missed that. That changes things quite a bit.

EDIT:
Yeah, I reread it, and honestly I'll have to ask...what were you thinking, NG? I know our situation is desperate, but a conventional bombing would have been just as effective, and the nerve gas just ended any chances of future peace. If the Holy League wasn't a pariah regime before, now it most definitely will be.

I need to sleep more too, as a side note. Sorry BG, I misread what you were saying. You said "contrived as" a WMD attack, which my bleary brain interpreted as meaning that his conventional forces were strong enough to be compared to one.

Heh, well, you attacked nations from different continents, different alliances, different ideologies, races, religions... of course the world was going to come down on you. That doesn't mean you can gas/nuke them.

Yeah, AC. And the nuclear event was not an attack.
Libya has invaded Algeria after pressure from India (actually originating in the INU, rather than the Commonwealth, as it happens... the Soviets just agreed to replace Libyan equipment losses, as Qadafhi is historically not keen to deploy his best equipment incase he loses it), and because Tripoli believed that it would be next (former Italian colony, Arab, Muslim, socialist, small, oil rich, bordering previous conquests, friendly with the Soviets) if the League isn't beaten in Africa. But the invasion has only just begun to cross the border and engage a few token military positions near the main road through, pretty much, desert.

France responded by sending a huge bomber wing towards Tripoli, and, fearing a repeat of Gibraltar, Accra, et cetera, and protecting a city of 1.7million people, the Libyans requested that the Soviet commander in the field authorise use of two nuclear-tipped SAMs. With moments to decide, he agreed, and the missiles were launched against the bomber stream, which was by then over the southern Med. in or approaching Libyan waters. Either way, the blasts will have extended over international waters, but they took place at high altitude, at which the bombers were flying (further suggesting that it was no precision raid).

Libya has no offensive nuclear ability, and certainly didn't nuke Algeria. The Colonel is hoping to end-up ruling a small part of Algeria, which Libya claims, and otherwise to be friendly with the restored Republican government.


Edit: Ah, yeah, all right. I must admit, I'm every bit as much tired. Not used to physical labour, and then I neglected to sleep, opting instead for trans-hemispheric communication. Stupid upside-down-half-of-the-world. Plus, I've not had any alcohol in 36 hours!

I haven't slept in over 36 hours, so there!

...night. *face falls onto keyboard*

On the contrary, this might be a big boost for France.

Quintonnia has stated in the past that Washington was strongly anti-nuke, and with France giving Quin express permission to use the straits of gibraltar plus Washington's traditional mistrust of the Soviets, well, you get the point - international opinion is going to shift.

France doesn't need Quintonnia's permission to use the Straits of Gibraltar. He needs mine; which is, of course, his. o.O

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11625085

Hey, BG, Qadhafi could look for Ottoman support - with the rising power of Ibrahim (see me and Dep's thread), the Empire is looking to assert it's influence over the Middle East once more - I'll probably create another thread for some Ottoman stuff.

Wouldn't that put you in direct opposition to United Elias?

Probably, but there's nothing stopping a few fleets of Ottoman ships from sailing from Southern Anatolia to Northern Libya, is there? (I'm not talking about open support - more clandestine than anything). A thread for those interested in Ottoman affairs (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=495544).

Pah, United Elias is consumed with its own affairs, presumably its struggle to keep-out growing Islamist radicalism and to cope with its failure to address the Holy League's commerce-pinching activities in the western Mediterranean.

But, that's good, yes. Get some Turks in there and hold-up the religious side of what otherwise might become a socialist struggle between Combine and Soviet. The Malik ul-Mugāhidīn gives his blessing! (And petro-dollars.)

Am I falling behind in that thread, again? Oh dear, too much family time, too little typing.

I don't see what all this fuss is about over BG's use of nuclear-tipped SAMs. I mean, what were his forces in Libya supposed to do? Leave it to chance, and let Tripoli be utterly destroyed? VX Nerve Gas, methinks, classifies as a weapon of mass destruction, and it cannot be questioned that Versailles intended to use it offensively against a nonmilitary target. What's more, the two nuclear-tipped SAMs were used over international airspace to thin-out a massive force of bombers the likes of which it seems only possible for monarchist France to deploy.

And should NG decide to "retaliate" (make-up for the French failure to kill noncombatants on a massive scale without taking major losses) with nuclear weapons, it will mean the nuclear obliteration of France at least, and the wrecking of AMW as a roleplaying organization. It is a sticky situation if NG is unwilling to back-down and accept that the Libyan response was fair and just given the monstrous nature of his attack. Perhaps it would be better if we removed WMDs from AMW altogether? We've had enough trouble with the damn things and one of these days they will be the end of us.

On the issue of the attack on Libya itself, yes, it was proposed by the Indian National Union, as a way to take pressure off the badly outmatched ECOWAS armies. Nothing, in fact, altogether more than a raid-in-force against French Algeria in order to draw strength away from the offensive in Mali and Burkina Faso. That the Commonwealthers proposed that the Algerian Republic be reinstated in full did not bother Unioners and the operation went ahead. Mumbai also interpreted the NATO charter as not applicable in Algeria, where Roycelandia had acquired territory by what few can possibly consider legitimate means. More than that, it is letting France use said territory to run the northern portion of its West African offensive, something that, I believe, has been condemned by Washington.

I think that NG's characterization of Indian/African forces as a "red horde" is a bit misleading as well. In our combined fleet, I would doubt that there are many more than 10,000 ground troops, many of those light infantry and marines. Facing Algeria, there are perhaps 50,000 Libyan regular troops, plus mabye ten thousand foreign ground troops at this early stage, and those largely lacking armored vehicles and artillery. When in Algeria alone there seems to be almost a million French soldiers, and when ECOWAS's combined armies (numbering some 150,000 troops) face perhaps as many as 300,000 Frenchmen alone, and likely as many collaborationist Nigerians, I don't think the Indians are the ones with the horde. In fact, the Commonwealthers and Unioners are counting largely on their troops' superior soldiery and experience in "real wars" to offset the French numerical advantage, overwhelming as it seems to be. The Indian National Army only has some 350,000 active troops, plus about as many irregulars. And BG doesn't have much more than that, in terms of what's deployable.

But that is largely irrelevant.

Back to the issue of WMD usage: personally, I would have the bastards banned from AMW. Too much of a temptation, really, and if the French royals are really as crazy as they seem to be, they'll probably start flinging missiles sooner rather than later. A purely conventional contest would be more fair and easier to police, and would not make possible the end of AMW if they, nuclear weapons specifically, are used en masse. But NG must realize that, with the Holy League possessing no clear-cut superiority in arms and having yet to win a clear-cut victory over an equal foe, peace must seem to many of the belligerents rather foolhardy, especially when it is on Versailles' terms. Louis-Auguste can hold the African Continent ransom with his nuclear arsenal, as it seems he is doing, but that just isn't any fun. If NG wants to end it, he can end it, but must do it in a way that does not allow France to keep more or less all of its latest conquests. The Indians, with enough conscriptable manpower to take-on the entirety of the Holy League, and stand a good chance of winning, aren't going to agree to it. That much is certain.

Anyway...er...perhaps it really would be quite a bit better to turn the clock back to the 1940s. I know Walmington would be down with that. ;) It would solve many of the nasty technology problems that we now face. And WMDs would only mean gas and diseases. Either that or we could ban the things, which would save a lot of trouble, and just OCCly agree not to dismantle the Holy League out of concern for NG's and Macabees' heavy contributions.

Well, I don't think WMDs should be banned. It would make things unrealistic not to have that threat lingering around, and I think we're all wise enough not to blow up the whole goddamned world.

I don't honestly think you can claim better soldiery, LRR. Both sides have had plenty of training and brutal experience in warfare (if this war, and the Lavragerian war, weren't "real wars" then I don't know what is one), and the League seems to have the technological edge over the Hindustanis (but not the Bedgellens.)

Nigeria has roughly 1 million men under arms, actually, although the overwhelming majority is by no means on par with the Red Coalition. And if things get desperate we can draft even more (we've only tapped less than a percent of the population, after all.), so things are likely to get pretty damn bloody.

Well spoken, LRR.

I may as well say, I don't want to see France/the League players killed-off any more than LRR seems to. That is why I took-up the opportunity to use Tulgary (though I hoped to get most of that done a few weeks ago, and things just didn't quite work out that way, alas!), as I thought that it could be a sacrificial lamb. The Archduke, Tulgary's proposed history and HL-involvement now willingly accepted by NG, is key to the foundation of the League and the early sponsorship of restorationist movements in Europe, and he's decrepit. I thought that, when it came down to it, sacrificing him might be the profound gesture needed to placate the Anglophone powers, without having to invade France et cetera.

I say that just to qualify how genuinely I feel that the League's players shouldn't suffer with their nations, as it were.

It seems that the WMD issue must be addressed, OOC.
Perhaps we should just make it that it must be a matter for prior consultation. If you want to deploy WMD in any circumstance, telegram the opposing player, perhaps? If disagreement arises, then bring it to the off-site forums or an OOC thread?
I say TG first because we maybe don't want to completely ruin the surprise, as it were, or to make AMW too contrived and planned, and I wouldn't like to always know when a big event was coming in an RP not directly involving me.
Meh, it's a half-arsed suggestion that might not actually solve anything, I don't know.

Ah, drafting is going to be more difficult in Africa, though, isn't it? Even surrounded by war, African nations have tiny armies, generally. AIDS and other problems render several percent of the populace unfit for service, subsistance farming means that troops will desert on mass when it comes time to harvest (you can't tell me that a significant fraction of Nigeria's population has been transfered to services and industry, yet), and you'll be lucky if you've even got a near-accurate census on that scale.

But, the Hindustanis are under-rated soldiers, I must say. For every battle the French have fought in the last generation, the INA has fought twenty. And, in a major battle where the French have sent in conscripts representing, say, one in every ninety-seven citizens, the INU has sent in professionals representing one in every three-thousand citizens. Where the French surf has supported 4% of a soldier and 0.002% of a battleship, the Hindustani worker has supported 0.002% of a soldier and four track-links on a tank they got for free from a Soviet warehouse. The Hindustanis fought the Red Bamboo and the Geletians in the same military career-span! The French carpet-bombed a guy on a pony and a girl under a hot tin roof in the same span.

Hehe, sorry, again, this isn't supposed to be anti-French propaganda! I'm just listening to Billie Holiday and sipping wine, on sixty hours without sleep, and feeling greatly amused by thoughts of the Indian soldiery. Lame, I know =)

You don't have to respond to any of this, I'm only typing because my chair, in which I'm reclined, happens to be in reach of the keyboard!

So what's going on with the Libyan "invasion" of RSAlg? Are we talking a full on invasion type thing, or just groups of the Colonial Guard and the Libyan People's Revolutionary Junta Defence Expeditionary Force shooting at each other with the odd artillery duel and maybe some tank battles and airstrikes?

It's hard to say, at this point, Royce.

The belief was, I think in relation to factbook-sourced information on the Kingdom of Algeria's defences, that most/all/more-than-actually-existed of the army had been deployed against ECOWAS, travelling through Roycelandian-occupied territory.

So far as we could see, this meant that the Kingdom of Algeria was in a seriously reduced state of defence, and so an attack was meant to cut through Roycelandian-occupied desert, pretty much, into the Kingdom, to put pressure on the French-lead conquest-of-West-Africa.

The Colonel, being a free-spirited chap, thought that he might take advantage to occupy the thousands of square kilometres that Libya actually claims as its own.

Now it seems that Algeria and the French have more troops than they know what to do with, so that might change it all again. And the issues surrounding the bomber attack mean that nothing's likely to happen until we've all sorted things out.

Possibly Qadhaffi will still try to get the Algerian people to revolt. And, given that virtually all of them are sure to be deeply pissed-off at the colonial authorities, that shouldn't be hard at all. But then there's the issue of whether he still tries to occupy part of Algeria for himself, creating an extra headache for his Indian backers. The rapscallion.

Fair enough... until that's sorted out then, I'll just assume it's isolated instances of the two sides shooting at each other rather than anything thoroughly organised or planned, so to speak...

Heh, well, AC, I dunno. This isn't the first time. But perhaps if we were all to agree that strategic nuclear weapons are only fair if used for national defense, where national defense qualifies as retaliation to a large-scale offensive strike within one's original claim? We'll doubtless come to some kind of agreement eventually.

As to Roycelandian Algeria, I had actually assumed that the border must have been at or below 30 degrees north latitude, and was closer to 28 degrees north latitude. Either way, the Libyan/Indian/Lusakans would be moving largely across uninhabited desert, and do not plan to engage any Roycelandian units unless they invite it. Given the level of support being given to Versailles by Port Royal, and the very underhanded nature of Roycelandia's presence in Algeria to begin with, I had also assumed that the Roycelandians would not push things any further than they already have. So that mistake is largely due to my being unclined to look for the text of the Franco-Roycelandian border agreement. Sorry. :(

But with apparently close to a million French and Algerians under arms in opposition, I doubt that the 50,000-strong anti-League force will want to spend much more time across the border. Time will tell, I suppose.

A quick question: Just who is representing Mauritania in RP? They're part of West Africa, but dropped out of ECOWAS in 2002, so I'm not sure if they fall under LRR's area of responsibility. Didn't seem too important, except the French have now promised the country to Spain, and it looks like the Saharawi will be scattered about on either side of the border in the face of heavy invasion forces.

I'm having enough trouble keeping up with the proper ECOWAS countries, so I'm a bit hesitant to do Mauritania as well. I had, though, always assumed that Mauritania's junta had been largely cooperating with the Holy League, selling them phosphates and promising to keep the Saharawi out. But if the Spanish do decide to invade Mauritania, there isn't much that Nouakchott's 16,000-man army can do about it, and Mauritanians don't much care for their repressive government. That was, of course, why Mauritania was evicted from ECOWAS in the first place.

Well, the latest military coup there looks to be going at least as well as one could hope when an army declares itself a government... I suppose we'll have to wait to see if the elections get through in November and 2007, but the constitutional referendum turned out admirably in principle (though that was a few months back, so perhaps I ought qualify even this with a 'time will tell').

The fact that the coup occured with widespread popular support, due in part to the former government granting special rights to foreign companies and suppressing Islamist opposition figures, seems to indicate a general nationalist-Islamic feeling within the country, in any event.

Ah, well, once again you prove a master of world politics! Best of luck to the people of Mauritania, then, in real life. Proper elections would be a fine thing.

But I think the point I was trying to communicate was that I'd rather not RP Mauritania if it comes down to it. To tell you the truth, I don't entirely have a handle on ECOWAS proper.

TCB, if the Libyans and Lusakans are largely advancing across open desert, it's quite proabable that the Roycelandians haven't noticed- or, if they have, they're quietly looking the other way and attending to their own defences, as it were.

I was under the impression that the Libyan forces were pretty much descending upon settlements in RSAlg, but if they're not, then that's good...

Another note on Mauritania, while I'm blathering on about where they stand... in RL they've had quite a relationship with PR China since the late 1990s. China sold the Mauritanian air force several aircraft (transports, nothing armed), and built a modern 'Friendship Port' for transport ships at Nouakchott, with 500,000 tons annual capacity, in order to secure trade of Mauritanian raw materials for Chinese finished goods. Their contracts don't seem to have been cut off with the coup, nor can I find anything along the lines of the Woodside Petroleum 'we get a monopoly without environmental constraints or taxation' contract clauses which got everyone mad at the previous government.

Would China have been pursuing a similar course in AMW as in RL?

Coup? I haven't paid much political attention to Africa, neither has Xiaguo or Sino.

However given China's thirst for raw materials, private businessmen have probably done something similar.

I don't even understand how Mauretania was transferred to Spanish control. How did it come under French control in the first place? Nova Gaul's TG to me a while ago was hectic, and he hasn't TGd me back..so I might as well just ask here.

On a totally different note, is it realistic for me to claim the ability to have and deploy ICBMs? My first thought was no, of course not. I'm Australia for all intents and purposes, just with a bigger budget. But then I got to thinking, and my thinking went kinda like this.

Australasia is the perfect first-strike position for cold-war munitions directed at the subcontinent. It's close by, friendly to the west, capitalist and all that jazz. It has the same close relationship with the USQ that RL Australia does with the USA, and seems a logical base for AMW's cold war.

So, during the age of nuclear proliferation, what's to say that the somewhat more affluent Australasia didn't keep some of its uranium reserves for itself, and it'd want some kind of delivery mechanism besides ye olde bombe. I imagine that the USQ would have helped out somewhat, as would have the UK.

Since then, I imagine that most ICBMs would have been dismantled, and the remaining two or three don't all carry nukes. Indeed, probably only one does, the rest are similar to France's non-nuclear ICBMs.

So, can I claim the ability to have and deploy ICBMs? You should know, I'm mainly asking for the purposes of knowning how I'd fare in a nuclear war, since that seems to be the topic du jour. But I'm also eyeing Ft. St. Joan.

In other news, does it seem reasonable to say that one or two scud-like missiles were present in Accra, or not? I don't know to what degree LRR had it fortified/armed, so I can't really say. Peanut gallery?

Mauritania wasn't actually transferred to Spanish control... the French have presented a map of West Africa's future as it will be once everything's been taken over militarily.

Once Mauritania is subjugated by League forces from whatever/wherever, political control will be transferred to Spain.

I think.

Man oh man. I think that the rules governing WMDs should be the same as they are in RL, you use them, and you will have them used back.
Now when it comes to nukes, no matter what was used before, no one will remember, and nukes will be the only thing on anyone’s mind.

I should remind everyone how Quinntonia has reacted to nukes in the past. First, we nuked Japan ending their part in WW2. WE then swore that we would never again use nukes unless we were first fired upon and national guilt and fear has driven nuclear policy ever since.

When Bonstock deployed nukes in Southeast Asia, a previously neutral and observant Quinntonian joined with nations that considered it their blood enemies against the one who fired them, and warned the world that they would take the same view of any of them. They then attacked former weapon sites and disposed of most of Bonstocks WMD arsenal themselves, before retreating back home.

Then, a nuke was fired during the Russian civil war, and a previously neutral Quinntonia entered the conflict and helped to force a peace, threatening to invade Russia to disarm it if things were not brought under control.

Soon after, the largest defence expenditure in Quinntonian history, even greater than the Westgaard Wall around Hamhung, was completed, based around being a nuclear missile defence shield, and Quinntonia implemented the most strenuous nuclear screening practices on earth.

Now, a BG Soviet commander has deployed nuclear weapons. Quinntonia, a previously neutral nation needs to make a decision.

I agree that WMDs could hurt AMW, but they are also a vital part, so, I set up Quinntonia as the nuke policeman. You can expect a large response to this development from this side of the world.

WWJD
Amen.

Well I am still playing around in my sandbox in the corner while the big powers run around and play superpower. I still had some Eurofighters in Mauritania, to convince the Morrocians that refugees weren't proper military targets.

I posted something about having them there on the off-site forums and recently took under consideration that Mauritania was under non-NPC control but with this recent news I am not so sure.

Oh well, you'll figure it out. I'll go and cause havoc somewhere else on NS for a bit....

Or maybe decide and launch the newest Austrian protecterate: the first nation-bar, on the moon! It'll be great! Use some old Roycelandia junk, land a space station, and voila! Moon meets Capitalism!

ICly and OOCly, I'm with BG here. French forces were coming with the express intent to wipe out the city, the sheer number of bombers showed that. It's not clear that we'll ever know ICly about their plans to use VX, but after seeing Gibraltar, Accra and Buenos Aires fall victim to France's penchant for destruction, Australasia would hardly blame the Soviets.

People will feel somewhat itchy about the whole thing, but the target was a legitimate military force attacking a civilian population centre. Somehow, I don't think that reasonable people will feel pity for the French on this one. Not after hearing about the cities that they've wiped out.

OOCly, I really don't think that even a desperate man like Louis-Auguste would nuke population centres over this. His aim, as I see it, is to make the war so horrible for his enemies that they'll give up after a while. By nuking something, he'll change from being the guy who is the victim of a hyper-reactive, rapacious horde of socialists, communists, anti-imperialists, atheists and sodomists into a deranged madman who nukes things.

'Bout them ICBMs...

Some players here may think that the nuclear incident would completely change the face of the world, and that everyone would be hit by a globe-spanning idiot-pulse from the latest in a long line of nuclear events, but I can only say that it is most fortunate that none of these players actually rule countries in reality. They'd certainly lose office come the first crisis -real or imagined- of their administration, anyway.

If anyone launches a nuclear offensive as a result of the Tripoli defence, I will be ignoring it.



As to Australasia and nukes... I don't know. I don't really care. The Soviets have only one fully operational SSBN with a total fleet size of four planned (the same as much smaller Britain), and, inclusive of tactical weapons such as Springer-deployed bombs, 6"-ish artillery, depth charges, and SAMs, the ISC has hardly more than a thousand nuclear warheads, and it is still unclear whether any are thermonuclear type... in 1981 the USA had over 9,000, and the USSR 6,000, including many that were several hundred percent more powerful than any the ISC has tested.

I'm really not that interested in the subject, and no intelligence agency or administration in AMW believes that the ISC is remotely interested in or capable of an offensive nuclear strategy.

Not that we can't wipe-out Paris if we so choose.

China is going to....freak out.

If people start talking ICly about chucking WMDs around, China will probably pull everything out of the European theatre, head home, and watch the rest of the war on TV.

China is going to....freak out.

If people start talking ICly about chucking WMDs around, China will probably pull everything out of the European theatre, head home, and watch the rest of the war on TV.


I don;t get that kind of back door exit plan, I am next door to uber 1 and uber 2 participant.

And since nobody is, China, you can hang around for a bit. I need ya.

OOC: BG, is everything all right? I'm noticing a... change in your tone of late. Something on your mind?

As for the Nuke thing, I just have a really hard time putting Nerve Gas in the same category as Atomic Weapons.

Both sides used Nerve Gas during WWI, and it was horrible, and an atrocity, etc- but Atomic Weapons can level entire cities in the blink of an eye, and irradiate the landscape. Nerve Gas dissipates relatively quickly, as unpleasant as it is.

Why not use Fuel Air Explosive, instead? It would be just as effective against aircraft, without the "OMG NUKES!" thing.

Besides, you can't turn around and decide it's OK for you to use Nukes on the French, but you'll be ignoring anyone else who tries to nuke Libya...

It's not the same thing at all and the rulers of the world all appreciate this, the end.

[Shoots the next person to dispute it]

Honestly, Libya really just nuked itself. It just so happens that the part of Libya so obliterated was airspace, and that a wave of French bombers was passing through without proper registration through local traffic control.

The difficulty with FAE is that they aren't 'fast' explosions, and while they'd be quite effective against a parked aircraft, vehicles airborn and underway can quickly pass out of the blast radius... which is far smaller pound-for-pound than a nuclear warhead anyhow, and weight is a critical factor for an anti-air missile.

Honestly, from a tactical perspective, there isn't much else that Libya or the Soviets could have done. It was either lose the city or use their nuclear defense. You could probably expect the same from Spyr, and anyone else whose military doctrines bear USSR influence... pretty standard tactical use for the things.

Spyr, that is incorrect, they might be ineffective against fighter aircraft, BUT THESE ARE GIANT LUMBERING BOMBERS!, they cant get out of the way. And the force used by the Libyans was massively excessive, a pair of ten-twelve kiloton warheads was the maximum you would need, he used a pair of FORTY kiloton weapons.

Beddgellert: you opened this can of worms, now you can deal with it. And have you have commited what in RL French doctrine could be classified as a first strike against France, he is perfectly entitled to respond in kind with nuclear weapons of similar composite yield (ie total yield of ~80 kilotonnes) against a military target, however a full strategic retaliation is out of the question

Spyr is, as usual, quite correct.

Right has been written all over the walls for some time, and yet many people insist on wronging it up like there's no tomorrow.

I don't know what FAEs would be like against aircraft, but that's because I don't know of anyone bothering to try it, and they've not bothered to try it -so far as I know- because they have bothered to try the nuclear alternative, and I've not just pulled this out of my backside.

The warheads had a yield around 25kt a piece (as stated, about twice the first bomb dropped on Japan- roughly 12kt). The reason for that? It was the estimate that came-up most frequently (not without occasional contradition, of course) when I was looking for equivalent real-life systems, searching a few of the more mainstream websites and the pile of crumbling old mid Cold-War-vintage books that I inherited from my slightly paranoid grandfather.

If France considers an event in the Gulf of Sidra to be a strike on France, well, what can you say? It would mean that reason had confirmed its departure from the issue.

The Soviets will of course be launching ICBMs into the airspace of every nation that disagrees, and then throwing a wobbly when anyone intercepts them, retaliates, takes cover, dies, survives, or does anything else that does not accord with Portmeirion's official doctrine, or in any way upsets any Commonwealth citizens.

Oh, wait, no...

FAEs would be more than alittle useless agaisnt aircraft. It is already incrediably difficult to get the vapour dispersion right in air to ground applications, as the russians discovered in chetcnia and it would more or less imposisble to get them to work properly in an air to air applciation particualry at bomber operational altitudes. The use of large FAE weapons has largely been abandoned in RL in favour of much smaller tactical weapons largely because of thier unreliability.

Bethgellert, the weapon dropped on Hiroshima yielded 15-16kt, not 12
EDIT: Infact, a pair of 5kT warheads would easily have been sufficient, the US military program into Nuclear Tipped Air to Air mIssiles concluded that 1.5kT would wipe out an entire formation of bomber aircraft, (The EMP would fry the avionics, which are very difficult to shield in an aircraft)

Man oh man. I think that the rules governing WMDs should be the same as they are in RL, you use them, and you will have them used back.
Now when it comes to nukes, no matter what was used before, no one will remember, and nukes will be the only thing on anyone’s mind.

I should remind everyone how Quinntonia has reacted to nukes in the past. First, we nuked Japan ending their part in WW2. WE then swore that we would never again use nukes unless we were first fired upon and national guilt and fear has driven nuclear policy ever since.

When Bonstock deployed nukes in Southeast Asia, a previously neutral and observant Quinntonian joined with nations that considered it their blood enemies against the one who fired them, and warned the world that they would take the same view of any of them. They then attacked former weapon sites and disposed of most of Bonstocks WMD arsenal themselves, before retreating back home.

Then, a nuke was fired during the Russian civil war, and a previously neutral Quinntonia entered the conflict and helped to force a peace, threatening to invade Russia to disarm it if things were not brought under control.

Soon after, the largest defence expenditure in Quinntonian history, even greater than the Westgaard Wall around Hamhung, was completed, based around being a nuclear missile defence shield, and Quinntonia implemented the most strenuous nuclear screening practices on earth.

Now, a BG Soviet commander has deployed nuclear weapons. Quinntonia, a previously neutral nation needs to make a decision.

I agree that WMDs could hurt AMW, but they are also a vital part, so, I set up Quinntonia as the nuke policeman. You can expect a large response to this development from this side of the world.

WWJD
Amen.

I believe, though, Quinn, that we need to make some distinctions here. First off, unlike Bonstock, BG used a pair of nuclear-tipped SAMs against a large formation of French bombers which planned to attack a civilian target, a sizable one at that, with nerve gas. Bonstock on Miyako Jima bombarded another military force not armed in kind with nuclear artillery shells when on the verge of defeat. In BG's case, there were zero civilian casualties (at least as a result of the nuclear SAMs...it appears as though some French bombers did deliver their stores over Tripoli), and they most likely (I hope) would not have been used had the French attack been conventional in nature. The two cases are very different, and I daresay that Louis-Auguste is in a situation more akin to Lord Harald than Chiisu Sunn.

We can all agree that the French attack was dishonourable, no? And that BG's response was fair and understandable, given the circumstances? What would the casualties have been, had the bombers not been downed? Furthermore, what guarantee did BG have that France would be discouraged from such action in the future? Quinntonia in particular was strangely silent (forgive me if this is not so...I could not find any specific reference to the attack in the present Quinntonia thread) following the death of over 50,000 Ghanaian noncombatants in Accra, likewise with Gibraltar, and reports of Chlorine Gas use in Ouagadougou seem to have either been ignored or denied. So far, France has shown little restraint in the conduct of its war,

Anyway, I for one would much rather see a compromise done on this highly contentious issue. Perhaps if NG changed the nature of his attack, BG would change the nature of the response? Or mabye our Libyan offensive is seriously screwed and West Africa is well and truly lost. When NG gets back, I suppose we'll find out.

And G-Man, unfortunately there aren't any IRBMs in ECOWAS, so it would be a tough time responding in kind to French carpet bombing. Either way, Ghana for one would probably rather have some long-range SAMs, but its too late for that.

Did the BG forces know ICly the payload of the French Bombers?

It was, I believe, assumed, and either way the Soviet commander didn't want the deaths of as many as a million Libyans on his hands. Doubts would of course be washed-away by the few bombers that did get through to drop their ordnance.

Well, we don't know for sure the yield of the Hiroshima bomb. The most commonly quoted figures are 12 and 12.5kt, but the most serious attempt to find out indicated anything from 12-18kt, and the only 'official' total I can find is 13.1kt. None of which changes the fact that 25kt warheads were used in keeping with various sources on the SA-5/S-200* and what it really was equipped with.

In truth, I doubt whether any of France's bombers would have got through, as they did no reconnaissance or SEAD work before or during the mission, and each of the nuclear interceptors expected to destroy over 96% of what it found up there, and then dozens of fighters would have had the survivors badly outnumbered, even ignoring the non-nuclear SAMs, but since there was a big kick-off when Walmington's defences easily dispatched a similarly weak attack, I did indeed allow a bomber to survive long enough to hit its target, though it wouldn't have got home (the only survivors would be those that dropped-out damaged or terrified after the first strike and never reached Tripoli). I probably wouldn't have bothered if I'd know that there was going to be such a fuss anyway. Lose-lose, it seems.

Anyway, the commanding officer in the field was Libyan. The Libyans requested the top-ranking Soviet officer (a Major, did I say?) release the command codes required to detonate the battery's two nuclear warheads (no proximity or contact fuzes on those).
He had seconds to decide, and knew only that France had launched a suicidal attack of massive scale, with far more than 100 targets approaching one of the biggest cities in Africa.

He thought of just a few things in those seconds:

*Clearly, the attack was a hot-headed response to the movement of Libyan forces against the Algerian border. It was beyond proportion to the provocation, it was against a civilian target rather than the military provocation for it, and it was needlessly rushed without Libya's extensive air defences being investigates, tested, or reduced in any way shape or form. Clearly it was totally irrational.

*Accra -a city of similar size- had just lost 50,000 people in what I remembered as a smaller attack (and so this officer happened to remember it the same way. I'm not sure if it's true). Chemical weapons had been used on civilian centres in Africa before, and even against Christian European opposition (Gibraltar, a target with sixty times fewer people).

*Libya was primarily non-white, socialist, Muslim.

The officer was almost sure that the attack was of a N/B/C nature. He did consider that he might be wrong. It might be that this was just a high-explosive and incendiary attack. He still released the codes, as would any other normal human being in his place. In his mind, in the moment, it was still the right thing to do, and would be supported by Tirpoli, Portmeirion, and any sane, humane government on earth. And he'd probably have done it even if he thought he'd be judged harshly, because he was saving tens of thousands of innocent lives.

*Libya originally aquired its S-200 batteries from the USSR during its late economic crisis and civil war in the Estenlands, and did not aquire nuclear warheads. These were later provided by the 1st Indian Soviet Commonwealth, and are to this day protected by Indian Soviet personnel stationed with the Libyan air defence forces. Other sources have suggested 15kt yield for the S-200, but most were pointing to 25kt, and I really didn't think it'd matter all that much, and decided that Sopworth, being Sopworth, would probably have gone for the bigger gesture, partly making-up for the fact that he had no strategic thermonuclear weapons with which to impress the world.

Well, the Scud is an SRBM, or short-ranged ballistic missile. But I'm just trying to provoke an attack on Accra intent on taking the city, rather than just making it an uncomfortable place. I don't think that a UGC attack is going to cut it this time (to wit: Stalingrad survived similar attacks with incendiary, and high explosive bombs). To that end, any kind of missile system that can hit French targets is fine with me. I would like to know roughly what's there, so I know what I'm working with.

On NPC Italy...

Mention of the Quinntonian naval base at Geata has brought up the issue of Rome and its role in the current conflict. As it stands, a few things seem to have happened there recently.

-The Holy League held its major meeting in Rome, just prior to hostilities first breaking out on the Iberian.

-The French have landed on, and taken control of, Sicily, haven't they?

-And Spanish units moved/planned to move to bases in northeastern Italy in order to counter Yugoslavia, though the end to the Yugoslav-Austrian conflict has made such a move unnessecary (though, as I recall, defence of Austria was just the most overt goal of such a deployment).

-Erm... Austria was considering having leased a naval facility at an Italian port, but I'm afraid I didn't keep track of where that ended up...

-Finally, the aformentioned USQ base at Geata has been bolstered with aircraft from Rammstein (which itself was bolstered during the Yugoslav-Austrian conflict... with units moved from Geata that are now returning, or from the continental USQ/Atlantic carriers?)

---

Doomingsland's Italy didn't have the time it deserved to develop, and a large chunk of its RP was lost after the OOC debacle following Franco-Italian invasion of Tunisia. It was, however, unique and interesting enough that it would be a shame to simply disregard it.

As I recall, Italy had undergone a feudal restoration of sorts in the 1960s/1970s (?), which had seen the installation of an Emperor who held control of the military, as well as a Senate of wealthy notables (which squabbled but towed the Emperor's line). The driving principle was one of nostalgic Roman nationalism, a restoration of Italy's glorious past as the Roman Empire. As such, military organisation (as well as titles and names of equipment) were derived from Roman precedents. Slavery had been re-instituted, and the Catholic Church played a prominent role (exact influence was never made clear, but it was certainly clear that Roman revival did not also involve restoration of the Greco-Roman religious pantheon). Italy had successfully tested a nuclear weapon, and thus can be assumed to posess such weapons, though quantity is uncertain... this test earned them international condemnation, or at least admonishments from the USQ, (also, in hindsight, this is probably a key justification in Libya trying to develop its own nuclear weapons, or at least get Sopworth to lend them some... not that the colonel wouldn't have pushed just as hard in its absence).

The earliest RP I recall Italy participating in was the capture of Sicily and Sardinia, which had belonged to an AMW member who had fallen inactive... they had been a liberal democracy prior to departure, and Doomingsland took control with little military opposition.

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Erm, so thats where things stand now. Personally, with the subject being Italy, I think it might be convenient to take some lessons from Italian difficulties in the Second World War, in order to position NPC Italy in the present. It is not too difficult to imagine that the Italian government is a member of the Holy League, given its choice of government, though recent Spanish and Tsarist successes have overshadowed the Italians somewhat.

One can also imagine an Italy which, as in RL, has an economy without the same scope of heavy industry as is found in France or Spain... unlike their counterparts, the Italians are not well positioned to support a war of power projection even to nearby Africa. Perhaps also as Italy in WWII, the population is not so dedicated to the goals of the war as their allies, and the Emperor does not wish to provoke unrest by sending his forces abroad. This would not only explain why Italy is not taking an active role, but also why the other Holy League powers now seem to have designs on its territory... like the Germans in WWII, the League hopes to assume command from a weaker ally so that Italy does not crumble if faced with prolonged hardship or invasion.

I'm not sure how supportive the Italian leadership would be of their empire being carved up, but one imagines that, in the event of a coup attempt or substantial public protest, he would willingly take up the role of Mussolini-esque puppet to the French in exchange for League units that can maintain his power.

I ended up not deploying to Italy in large numbers since I left for Spain. You can consider Spanish aerial deployments in Italy non-existant at this point.

Wow. I have a response cut out for me. Sorry about my absence, work has begun again, and I am swamped.

First of all, most importantly, I will ‘remove’ the VX attack and replace it with a standard payload (although it is ridiculous that anyone IC would know what the payload contained) of dumb explosive bombs if BG will kindly agree not to use nukes. Keeping this in mind, it is possible that the Libyan air force would be able to make a small dent not using nuclear weapons, but not enough to save Tripoli.

If BG still says using nukes is fine, then as far as I’m concerned I will ignore him, since the alternative is the immediate launch of my full nuclear capability against basically everybody.

I am also a bit mad. LRR and I have rigorously Rped this African war; I think some of the best and most realistic RP in AMW to date. Then BG waltzes in, KEEPING IN MIND HE HAS A MASSIVE PROGRESSIVE FLEET OF HIS OWN ON THE WAY, and shoots everything to hell in two posts, ignoring Roycelandian sovereignty and continuing the invasion without Royces response. In response he dishes out a few blurbs about his progressive ideals. Tulgary is not worth that high a price.

Allo voila, messieurs.

Italy is a firm HL ally, enough said. And yes, I did take Sicily.

Mmmm... it seems like a lot has happened hingeing around the VX attack and subsequent response. It might be... tough to undo, simply because of the several posts and much behind-the-scenes maneuvering that has gone on. Alternatively, BG could RP having the Third Commonwealth distance itself from Qadhaffi (I hope I got that right, probably didn't), have him get disarmed by the Roik-Americans, and France takes its hit.

Well, I don't know how France would possibly accept that, but I honestly don't think that a nuclear response would be a good idea ICly or OOCly. Anyway, we've been over that.

About the Lybian invasion... I'm not totally sure what's happening there. Someone clarify? 'Cause I read that he was planning on marching through Roycelandian territory to get to somewhere else, which makes little sense on the face of it. Royce wouldn't stand for it, obviously.

I suppose we could pretend that he took the long way around (I think, if my AMW geography is right, he can go southwest for a while before going south and he's okay. Alternatively, he could go straight to Niger and fight the French-backed Nigerian army on the side of the Nigeriens, thus providing the impetus for a VX attack.

But I like the VX attack. It's another 'France is bad' thing that I can level against you :P. Also, I think BG said that one French bomber-- maybe two, I don't remember, dropped their payloads. That's how we know.

BG's ground forces in his fleet are ~8,000. Not that many.

Italy: Much of an air force? Navy?

I think it's safe to assume that the Italian armed forces will not be a major contingent in this war.

As I understand it, the raid on Algeria is being conducted through Roycelandian territory, as much as was neccessary to avoid an invasion of Tunisia. Roycelandian Algeria is generally empty, and it seemed to have been determined that the Libyans were not directly attacking the Roiks, and that the Roycelandians had not moved to engage them.

Posts relating to it are somewhere around here, though I suppose clarification from BG and Royce would be helpful.

OOC-

Gurg, please stop. It is inane for you to continue while every move you make may be challenged OOCly in the near future.

I am standing by to nuke the world, including you. All posturing is moot after Australasia is gone. Granted, France will be gone too, but I wish to be very very clear, so will, in order of volume: Britain, you, all major African cities, Yugoslavia, Hindustan, Spyr, Germany, Denmark and of course Beth Gellert. Very probably I will lob the rest off at Quinntonia and China. I have done the math. France, IRL, has a very sizeable nuclear arsenal, and the Restoration only saw massive stockpiling of very heavy duty nukes. Without Spain, I have the capability to do this, with Spain, it is a beyond done deal.

No matter how well you prepare, this is endgame. I.e. AMW is over in all shapes and forms, save a few nations and a radioactive world.

I dont mind being picked on by nearly all AMW ICly, even OOCly. At the same time I have no problem, as Spain and I are unrealistically attacked by the entire, I say again, entire world, sending everyone who thought they would take a piece of France or Spain into nuclear oblivion.

So dont just trot on smiling, we are almost done with AMW.

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I wanted to post this as well on the OOC thread. There seems no point in doing any IC post at the moment, as nuclear war will soon begin, and gladly enough end very soon after it starts.

Shall we start planning a new AMW?

Oh dear.

I'm sorry, but the only problem here is that a few players happen to be wrong.

There's no question of re-doing things, or nuking anybody. We either carry on, or we don't. There is no question of a nuclear attack being launched by France, even beyond the fact that France can't reach Australasia with its missiles and hasn't enough to wipe out the ISC, let alone all the other nations NG now thinks to threaten. Even if France would launch nukes in this position -which I tell you as a matter of fact she would not- she wouldn't wipe-out her enemies, and she would be wiped out.

It matters not, we can carry on, or we can stop for no realistic reason, just some lack of understanding on the part of a few. I'm not fussed, I'm leaving the country in a couple of weeks.

Again, Spyr's right about what's going on in Algeria, last I understand it.

Again... no, actually, I can't be arsed to re-type what happened over Tripoli yet again. It has been explained, I was right to begin with, I explained the position for all, I can't be arsed, I'm going to bed, and then I'm going to Australia, tomorrow things will either be moving on or over, I don't care.

We could erase a load of stuff and pretend that France never dropped VX... that would change absolutely nothing. We could erase even more and pretend that Libya never properly defended itself according to doctrine, for no reason what so ever. Then what do we have? Libya wiped-out for no reason. Man, good RP! Well, if that's the standard we're going for, I've wasted a couple of hours a week for several years.

::claps enthusiastically::

Yay!

BG wins, me loose, he good!

Him good, me evil, he win!

I so stupid.

“Well, I guess I should surrender now, on account of your being a super-genius.”

Bugs Bunny to the Wiley Coyote