NationStates Jolt Archive

then there is something wrong with the number posted by Sharina because according to them, he lost more than he had

but he had a building program going on before the battle, my guess is that he had more ships built. Check the IC, it's in there somewere

Is there still a link to where everyone's Factbooks are? Wait I can answer that one myself. Some people need to just edit their stuff instead of actually constantly posting it.

Pretty good RP post, Suikada. I'm impressed and I liked reading it.

He posted like 5 days ago Real Life that he was updating his navy. If he can make such huge changes in that short of time then imagine what the French navy could have added...

He posted he has destroyers and then he loses 25 in the battle. Show me where he had enough ships to raid Marseille

This is worrying. I may have to post the numbers for my entire navy. I still have several reserve fleets (and all the names for each individual ship) listed somewhere.

Suk, some info on Japanese Policy:

Lots and lots of money have been invested in Korea, Sakhalin and Outer Manchuria (the area around Vladivostok up to the river Amur) to build better infrastructure, schools hospitals etc.

The only two "forced" things I've done is na law that states that every citizen in the Empire must learn Japanese (the government pays the costs) and that the former Russian Inhabitants of Norhern Sakhalin have been "removed" to Taiwan to allow Japan to reconstruct and modernize without anyone getting in the way. They should return at the end of 1918.

Also a major Law is being drafted which says that every Citizen in the Empire is equel, thus giving them equal rights and duties, but some Nationalist Groups disagree with the Koreans, Russians etc. getting equal rights. Maybe in the first half of 1919 this will get through.

Ok in that case, I would state that the major problems would be infastructure problems. As in the Nationalists possibly doing something rash to prevent the Koreans getting equal rights. Remember the Japanese culturally are extremelly racist to the point that Jim Crow looks accepting and loving. So possible coups within Japan could occur. (They happened in real life a couple times in Japanese history) In fact a few of your politicians who are going for equality would probably end up assassinated.

Uh as for Korea, so doing the old Phillipines with the US thing then. Then you'd probably just end up with peaceful protests in Korea with asking for more autonomy. SO not really rebellions, more of protesting and statements for a more self government. Sorta like a commonwealth system. How you handle that will decide whether it's violent or not. ANd fixing Korean infastructure would take longer than a year or two. You might start it, but if you plan to return the Russian colonists in 1918, you would have just started the plans. Either way with those reactions you'd end up with most of your problems from the internal parts. It's a shame, but many of the more peaceful Japanese leaders who saw an idealistic equality in mankind ended up in their own pools of blood because the rest of the country didn't agree. Soo I'll have to discuss with you on that. But, thanks for the info. If you can keep your own people from getting violent I don't see too much of a problem unless you turn the peaceful Korean protests into a Tenamin Square Sorry can't spell it.

Oh two questions, they have to learn Japanese, but the state language is still Korean. THey are just required to be bilingual. That's what I assume that law means. And the returning Russians from Tawain, what do they do there, are they put to slave labor, or are they going to be put in camps. Are those camps funded? Are they basically death camps with disease? (Japanese are never good culturally and even if the government is nice, the commanders would be abusive and so would their men.) And do they get to keep their land when they return or is it partitioned out and they are basically homeless when they return? Those are my questions.

And thanks Sharina, I really have the most fun when I can do a personal type thing. Something along the line of what I typed. It took me half an hour to type. So I am glad you enjoyed it. By the way, who plays Germany. And uhh what are the policies in SIberia and Indochina. Indochina will turn violent no matter how nice you are to tell the truth. Siberia it all depends. And the others will be later.

Give me a few days to sort out everything and I'll have the Indochina and Siberia policies up.

Oh two questions, they have to learn Japanese, but the state language is still Korean. THey are just required to be bilingual. That's what I assume that law means. And the returning Russians from Tawain, what do they do there, are they put to slave labor, or are they going to be put in camps. Are those camps funded? Are they basically death camps with disease? (Japanese are never good culturally and even if the government is nice, the commanders would be abusive and so would their men.) And do they get to keep their land when they return or is it partitioned out and they are basically homeless when they return? Those are my questions.

You're right with the law. In the Korean part of the Empire, everything is bilangual, just like in Belgium, or Switzerland.

The Camps in Taiwan were some sort of refugee Camps. The people in there are supposed to survive, but of course some soldiers and commanders will act against their orders and make life of some refugees as horrible as possible. They can return to their land and houses (who are basicly, a bit more modernized). The entire modernization of the infrastructure and take well into the 20's.

And I like the commonwealth idea...

ps. I was thinking of a Radicalisation of Japan after the war. Possibly a coup or Commie Revolution. Lenin and his comrades are in power in Russia and Trotski would like to see a world wide revolution, could be fun...

So basically it will be like the Spanish Concentration camps in Cuba during the Spanish American war. They aren't total death camps, but through neglect and abuse alot of people die. Got it. And ooh if that ever gets out the public relation problems with the United States and Britain would be horrible. Ok, I can play on that sorta thing.

And Sharina I see how busy you are, so take your time. I can deal with what I got at the moment. I got a few more plans to shake out before I am even ready to get to the Eastern theater.

You got it. The official policy is:"Treat them nice!" but actually its "but not too nice".

Realtions with britain are bad anyway, see the IC Thread. And it won't change positively soon...

Yeah, but it could get a whole lot worse. And let me see. Ok, I have a question. Does a coup count as a rebellion? I realize once the government is taken over, it goes to the controller of the land. But lets say I ran a coup in a certain country. Is that considered a rebellion. Like lets say the military officers of Japan wanted to stop this equallity nonsense and scare the crap out of the Parliment by assasinating the "Peace Party" people who want it. (Happened in real history during the 20's and 30's) Just curious on that gray area. You are the ultimate mod and personally I'd prefer to ask you. Cause to tell the truth before the legistaltion passed, you'd have alot of dead Parlimentary peace activists by Army Officers swords. And the sad thing is that the people would support that. To tell the truth you're though patterns actually existed during that time, and it's a sad truth of history that you'd either be scared to shut up, or killed. SOOOOOOOO personally I could give you ideas and you could show it. In truth I'd roll a dice. Cause those kind of coups always had a 50/50 chance of succeeding. Though they'd always half succeed in some state.

Yeah, but it could get a whole lot worse. And let me see. Ok, I have a question. Does a coup count as a rebellion? I realize once the government is taken over, it goes to the controller of the land. But lets say I ran a coup in a certain country. Is that considered a rebellion. Like lets say the military officers of Japan wanted to stop this equallity nonsense and scare the crap out of the Parliment by assasinating the "Peace Party" people who want it. (Happened in real history during the 20's and 30's) Just curious on that gray area. You are the ultimate mod and personally I'd prefer to ask you. Cause to tell the truth before the legistaltion passed, you'd have alot of dead Parlimentary peace activists by Army Officers swords. And the sad thing is that the people would support that. To tell the truth you're though patterns actually existed during that time, and it's a sad truth of history that you'd either be scared to shut up, or killed. SOOOOOOOO personally I could give you ideas and you could show it. In truth I'd roll a dice. Cause those kind of coups always had a 50/50 chance of succeeding. Though they'd always half succeed in some state.

Interesting and good idea! I like it, Its great that you hopped along, really! I think the Military Big Heads will start rolling heads when they're bored or when they're seriously threatened by some kind of peace party. For now they've more than enough to do...

Yeah I just saw. THough I have an interesting responce. At work so only able to talk when I am uploading pictures from the camera. So will post soon on what I have. But yes, right now that is far from people's minds as I bet the more militant Parlimentary members try to push that equality bill so it can be postponed til the current crisis is over. Am I right, I gather.

ps. I was thinking of a Radicalisation of Japan after the war. Possibly a coup or Commie Revolution. Lenin and his comrades are in power in Russia and Trotski would like to see a world wide revolution, could be fun...

actualy, as of now I don't think that Lenin and the communists have won. I think the fighting is stil confused and complicated, more so because the whites are denied their normal bases (Siberia and Ukraine) and have moved into central Russia to fight it out. I might just post some news on the fighting soon

Whose in charge of Russia? WHat's left?

Whose in charge of Russia? WHat's left?

no one is in charge, its considered to be in anrachy and in the civil war. It's made up of European Russia and Belorussia

So basically it's in Civil War at the moment. Soo doesn't that mean we should have two people pick a side and see who wins?

So basically it's in Civil War at the moment. Soo doesn't that mean we should have two people pick a side and see who wins?

I don't think anyone has even asked to be them, but I think we'l come to a decision as to what happens after the war, but if the Central Powers play it smart they'll keep supplting both sides until they're exhausted and settled down

Well if they can continue supplying it. The question is also, who fills the void? Do they start another puppet government. Cause keeping control of that huge a puppet government is going to cost alot. And by having themselves at the hip to so many other governments is going to eventually start hurting their economies. I smell a depression in ten years. A really really bad one.

Either way it's a we'll see right now I suppose. Oh well. Either way it's going to be messy.

Well if they can continue supplying it. The question is also, who fills the void? Do they start another puppet government. Cause keeping control of that huge a puppet government is going to cost alot. And by having themselves at the hip to so many other governments is going to eventually start hurting their economies. I smell a depression in ten years. A really really bad one.

Either way it's a we'll see right now I suppose. Oh well. Either way it's going to be messy.

I think I have plenty of old and captured weapons to give, and I really don't want a puppet government at this time

Well I know that AUstria Hungary doesn't, but what about Germany or the Ottomans? Poland will start becoming a problem as well. But either way, victory fever does spread sometimes. Now on to my next rebellion action. By the way I have no idea who was in the palace when I set the explosives off. But I'll tell you even if only the servants died, that thing on fire is an indellible image. Wish I had a picture of the palace to tell the truth. I have a general idea of the structure, just never had any hard pictures. I'll go look now.

Well I know that AUstria Hungary doesn't, but what about Germany or the Ottomans?
I have a huge puppet government, I don't need another...though I have considered supplying the Russian Communists with old out of date weapons and supporting them with some food and supplies.

I have a huge puppet government, I don't need another...though I have considered supplying the Russian Communists with old out of date weapons and supporting them with some food and supplies.

although we have to keep a balance, so that neither side wins for a long, long time

Perhaps. Who knows if a good general comes out of it and totally annihilates one side or the other. *Shrugs* Supply isn't everything.

in this war a lot of machine guns helps the defending side....


I thought I'd post this here first, to see if anyone else was interested in doing a WW2 RP. I would be the USSR, Voxio has expressed an interest in Italy, an everything else is open so far. If there is enough interest I will start a signup thread. I'd be appreciative if Sharina would do the battles again, but I understand if you won't

Actually I'd like to dispel that right now. THe majority of WWI casualties were not from machine guns. The myth of the machine gun is not true. Only around 20% of casualties during WWI were from small arms fire. That's machine guns, rifles, pistols, and all the rest of that junk. The true killer of WWI style warfare is artillery. THe massive amount. (About 75%) of casualties were from artillery. So in truth it's artillery helps the best in defense. Machine guns are a deadly annoyance. Just had to get that out there.

And nah, not enough time for too much of these. THanks though.

and of course, most casualties reurned to duty within 6 months (something I got from Gavelston Bay's WW1 posts)

MMMM well I always state that casualties are a very general term. Like, great his name escapes me, but the French resistance during WWII guys. Forget his name. During WWI he was wounded twice, and captured. SO he ws a casualty 2 times. So it all works. So anyways. Now to wait for Germany's responce.

The only reason Artillery caused more damage than machine guns in the war was due to the fact that the grunt charging the enemy trench... could see the machine gun, and not the artillery piece. If you can see what it is thats shooting at you, you can move around it and avoid it... pretty hard to avoid explosive shells falling out of the sky. But for defenses, I wouldnt underestimate machine guns, especially for the losing side. Id much rather charge an indirect-fire artillery piece than a machine gun aimed right at me.

if anyone else was interested in doing a WW2 RP

I would be interested in joining as Germany. I have been in several WWII RP's, but am usually stuck as some third world crack pot like Spain, Australia or some South American Nation. Id really like a shot at being an actual power.

I have also done a few renditions of ww2, but if you started a new one, something like Britain could be fascinating for me

But for now I am interested in seeing France survive

Okay, I'll start a signup thread and put you guys down as interested. Please let me know if you won't so we can fill up the spots

double post

The WW2 thread is up, I suggest people solidify their claims and post D/N

double post

The WW2 thread is up, I suggest people solidify their claims and post D/N

Linky?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=485415

let me know If I forgot anything

Linky?

does this mean you'll be participating?

does this mean you'll be participating?

Possibly. It depends on two factors, though.

1. If I have the time to RP (given that I'm involved in E20, this AoI RP, and then that WW-2 RP), not to mention war gaming for AoI.

2. If that WW-2 RP somehow stays alive, Most WW-2 RP's die out because people lose interest or things go sour.

Possibly. It depends on two factors, though.

1. If I have the time to RP (given that I'm involved in E20, this AoI RP, and then that WW-2 RP), not to mention war gaming for AoI.

2. If that WW-2 RP somehow stays alive, Most WW-2 RP's die out because people lose interest or things go sour.


The last WW2 RP i did died because Germany stoped playing and everyone else simply went away. I think the AoI might die when WW1 is over, but that's just my theory

Well that is til you see the artillery and those fast firing 75's starting shooting cannister at you. But yes machine guns definetly killed cavalry charges forever.

Well, I hope AOI will continue after WWI, but I think we still have a couple of years of bitter fighting ahead of us.

Especially with the rebellions starting to spring up. It's easy to fight an enemy when your rear is secure. It's horrible when it's not. Even if you shut the rebellion down, it keeps from 100,000 to almost a million to keep it that way, keeping those soldiers from the front lines. And that can make all the difference.

Rebellions are indeed a plague, but I won't commit too many troops right now.

Well right now rebellions are not concerned with you. I gotta do some PR stuff against Austria Hungary, and also need to see Sharina. Most of my day is going to be to figure out E-20.

I am going to leave this open to the citizens of AoI, but I believe the Spanish fleet attacking Marseille by the numbers was too small to do that much damage - also that the is another major French port not too far at Toulon completely capable of handling fleet operations and repairs

Is it just me or are the actions carried out by the Central powers ridiculous? They're carrying out incredibly risky maritime assaults (especially now I'm in the war for France) which can have very little good effect now. They're massing huge fleets which are frankly impractical given that these are states at war which must cost millions of dollars a day and massive amounts of resources, building huge fleets.

Is it just me or are the actions carried out by the Central powers ridiculous? They're carrying out incredibly risky maritime assaults (especially now I'm in the war for France) which can have very little good effect now. They're massing huge fleets which are frankly impractical given that these are states at war which must cost millions of dollars a day and massive amounts of resources, building huge fleets.

resources and money mean little until after the war, when we have to repay debts.

As for naval attacks, they're not really risky, you only just joined and we bloodied the French pretty badly

Is it just me or are the actions carried out by the Central powers ridiculous? They're carrying out incredibly risky maritime assaults (especially now I'm in the war for France) which can have very little good effect now. They're massing huge fleets which are frankly impractical given that these are states at war which must cost millions of dollars a day and massive amounts of resources, building huge fleets.

OOC: ""Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." ~ Napoleon Bonaparte

I think that sums it up quite nicely. :)

I am going to leave this open to the citizens of AoI, but I believe the Spanish fleet attacking Marseille by the numbers was too small to do that much damage - also that the is another major French port not too far at Toulon completely capable of handling fleet operations and repairs

Actually, upon further observation of the Naval Phase post, it seems no definative figures on standing vessels prior to combat exsists. Instead, vague terms such as "Spanish Fleet" and "French Fleet" are used.

Of course, one could assume that such terms signify the entire naval forces of that said nation but if that is so, the Spanish Fleet, after sustaining several hours of devastating combat with her French counterparts, would have to limp at break-neck speed (whilst escorting damaged vessels and low on ammuntition, mind you) from Southern Corsica to Mariselles (Roughly 100 miles) in a very short period of time (probably less than 72 hours after combat, although as no dates were provided, again I am forced to make assumptions) without being detected by local civilian vessels and attack the facilities at Mariselles. Highly unlikely, right?

"But you forget, the force that attacked Mariselles was a seperate attack group," one would say and they are correct. A seperate attack group did attack Mariselles, but was it really an 'attack group' large enough to inflict the damages it did? I say no for one principle reason:

If you take a look at the Naval Phase Casualties list, you can obviously see that the majority of the entire Spanish Fleet was destroyed (as a matter of fact, France managed to destroy 1 Pre-Deadnaught and 23 Destroyers that never exsisted) during the hostilities in North Africa. So as to say the Spanish fleet was completely destroyed, the Spanish would have had to commit at least 90% of their total fleet to the combat operations in question (including their ghost fleet). Thus, the largest this strike force could be is somewhere around a few handful of cruisers and destroyers with a couple of torpedo boats, which yes, could inflict a sizeable amount of damaged with well-trained crews and the element of surprise. But did these vessels posses those two advantages?

In early 1898, the Spanish Navy's relatively modern ships included one battleship, Pelayo, five armored cruisers and eight protected and unprotected cruisers of relatively larger types. Two of the latter, Reina Cristina and Castilla, were stationed in the Philippine Islands. Another, Reina Mercedes, was in Cuba, while most of the other ships were in European waters. These ships were generally somewhat smaller and older than their U.S. Navy counterparts, and many of them suffered from deficiencies in machinery, armament, ammunition and crew training.

Now sure, we're fighting roughly 20 years after the fact, but due to the failing finances of the Spanish state, the incompetence and corruption of the ruling administration and the lack of public or government support for the navy after the war, I doubt this situation has improved much.

The next factor, surprise, the Spaniards seemed to have when they so stealthily sailed into Mariselles. However, I doubt the realism of such movements. In the event that a Spanish fleet (or 'attack group') was sailing along the the Mediterranean coast (again, the course of these vessels was not stated and I am thus forced make assumptions), hoisting Spanish colours, both Civilian and Military personnel along France's southern shore would have spotted the fleet and it's position would be continually relayed to the Ministry of Defense, which would most likely alert costal batteries in the area of the enemy, especially in major cities. Furthermore, as the Spanish vessels did not maintain a state of radio silence, their communications (or at least bits of them) would be picked up by French radio technicians (and decoded in the event they were encrypted).

Thus, it's hard to believe that this 'attack group' could achieve so much success against the port facilities at Mariselles when the crews of the Spanish vessels were most likely poorly trained, and the costal batteries in the area would have been prepared for such an attack. As a matter of fact, I would've expected a terrible debacle on the part of the Spaniards, who, after inflicting minor damages, would have been forced away, sunk, or distracted by the volleys of heavy gunfire that was falling upon them since the beginning of the engagement.

Plus, as Ticitus said, the port of Toulon would be fully capable of repairing the damaged vessels of the French Navy on schedule. Thus, I believe France's vessels should be ready for combat again by late 1918.

Besides, the rebellions are going to be worse in the Central powers, meaning that they will have one arm tied behind their back to begin with. Being victorious has a cost. It means troops sent back to monitor what you've taken. Especcially since a new hope has been brought to freedom. It can only get much more nasty a war.

I overlooked the fact that France had a second port in the Mediterrean. My apologies.

As for the Spanish fleet and such, I simply fed the numbers Spain provided me with, as well as the fact that France committed her navy in an effort to attack the Turkish raids of French supply in Africa... I fed all these numbers into the computer simulation, and I posted the result the simulation put forth.

To put it into several kinds of perpsective...

1. You roll a 30 sided dice. Occasionally you get lucky and get a 1 or 30 on the dice, whereas you'd usually get a number between 10 - 20 more often (law of averages).

2. Throughout history, there has been instances of victories and shocking battle events that would otherwise be difficult, if not impossible to pull off conventionally (one example would be the British fending off the Spanish Armada invasion fleet in the 16th century despite the hurricane). The same goes for medicine (all these 1 million to one odds chances pulling through) or science breakthroughs or such. You could say the Spanish had a "miracle" of sorts.

3. The Spanish got really lucky in this instance- something akin to winning the Lottery or Mega-Millions in real life.

I'm going to game out the land stuff (for the entire year now, as I have orders from most everybody now) as there won't be any major naval battles until late 1918 or early 1919 after everybody rebuilds and resupplies all their navies.

I overlooked the fact that France had a second port in the Mediterrean. My apologies.

As for the Spanish fleet and such, I simply fed the numbers Spain provided me with, as well as the fact that France committed her navy in an effort to attack the Turkish raids of French supply in Africa... I fed all these numbers into the computer simulation, and I posted the result the simulation put forth.

To put it into several kinds of perpsective...

1. You roll a 30 sided dice. Occasionally you get lucky and get a 1 or 30 on the dice, whereas you'd usually get a number between 10 - 20 more often (law of averages).

2. Throughout history, there has been instances of victories and shocking battle events that would otherwise be difficult, if not impossible to pull off conventionally (one example would be the British fending off the Spanish Armada invasion fleet in the 16th century despite the hurricane). The same goes for medicine (all these 1 million to one odds chances pulling through) or science breakthroughs or such. You could say the Spanish had a "miracle" of sorts.

3. The Spanish got really lucky in this instance- something akin to winning the Lottery or Mega-Millions in real life.

I'm going to game out the land stuff (for the entire year now, as I have orders from most everybody now) as there won't be any major naval battles until late 1918 or early 1919 after everybody rebuilds and resupplies all their navies.


OOC: Bah! Don't need to apologize for anything. I figure those Spaniard bastards can have a miracle every once in awhile (but I'll keep an eye out for any more of these 'miracles').

*slips more money to Sharina for another "30"*

It is over. Belgian Forces in the Congo have surrendered, however Belgium will not recognize independence, leaving their soldiers on Congan Rubber Plantations to be ransomed off along with most Europeans in the country.. The United African Coalition has been formed out of the territories currently known as the Dem. Rep. of the Congo, Rwanda, and Burundi.

France will not recognize an independent Congo until Belgium does.

(slips knife into Austrian minister)

France will not recognize an independent Congo until Belgium does.

(slips knife into Austrian minister)

OOC: I really don't think anyone will recognize this colonial rabble quite yet (at least I know South Africa won't).

*slips more money to Sharina for another "30"*

Oh I'll give you another 30 for free, actually make that a 38, just because I'm so nice. But first if you would so kindly place your mouth over the shiny silver barrel of my Webley & Scott pis-- I mean prize acceptor, it will be in the back your skull very shortly. :D

Yeah, getting reccognition is a pain.

They'll probably start recognizing as this war drags on, and they realise that their Belgian Rubber shipments are mysteriously gone... that and those Revolutionaries are war crazy... hard not to recognize a guy holding a gun to your head.

Or a woman. Women actually make excellent revolutionaries. I'm going to use them very well. Yes very well.

BUMP

One Wekend away and this RP is slowly dying... Sad.

Once again, my deepest apologies for delayed war gaming- I have had my hands full with a potential World War 4 in E20 (Earth 1900-2000). Now that the war seems like it *MIGHT* be averted, at least for my nation in E20 I might have more time to attend to other RP's like this one.

Haneastic and Koryan knows what I'm talking about.

This RP is officialy dead...too bad, I've put a lot of work and energy in the AoI series. Looks like the concept is a failure.:(

Sorry man....

life goes on...

anyone not interested in playing E20 that isn't now? Lots of fun...

This RP is officialy dead...too bad, I've put a lot of work and energy in the AoI series. Looks like the concept is a failure.:(

OOC: I don't think it's the concept necessarily that's the failure. It's just that this era (Late 19th - Early 20th Centuries) has been over-indulged by a whole series of various RP's and thus, interest has dropped.

Indeed it is sad to see AoI fail once again, but I do have hope that maybe with a few tweaks to the system and a little bit of patience (wait for the other RP's to die down a bit so as to attract potential members) an AoI version 3 could be initiated.

On that same tangent, if you ever need any help in the future with such an operation, I would be glad to help.

I agree that the concept is overdone. I am thinking of starting a medieval rp starting in the year 1100, at the end of the first crusade. Anyone interested?

anyone not interested in playing E20 that isn't now? Lots of fun...

what is that anyways?

***********

and you know, I always think older rp's are cool, so I would be willing to try a crusade one, even if others were not. Remember Greece-Rome-Carthage?

Yes, I knew you would. What nation would you like to be when I start it? Hopefully not the Byzantines; I want them.

OOC: Alright guys, I think you need to take your plans for a new RP out of this thread as it is in no way relavent to AoI.

what is that anyways?

***********

and you know, I always think older rp's are cool, so I would be willing to try a crusade one, even if others were not. Remember Greece-Rome-Carthage?

E20 is a game that starts in 1900 and goes until 2000 (although it will probably go further). The current year is 1962, and there have been 3 World Wars, and almost a fourth one. You handle a nations economics with builds and its military units, al of which is recordeed and kept under a point system to help keep things realstic. It's very fun, and we could use a Burma (hint hint)

Are you missing any other nations and if so can you provide a link?

too much effort - always starting new countries, doing research, getting nowhere