NationStates Jolt Archive

imagine the world without the Seven Years' War! Imagine the ideas of the Enlightenment, never expressed in the American Revolution, or the French Revolution [as least as they would have happened]! Imagine a Europe, still clinging to the Holy Roman Empire in 1930! Imagine an Asia that has modernized and competes with the Western powers for global dominance [or global cooperation...]! That is our world! Basically, forget everything you know about the Napoleonic Wars [apparently, he goes to India and wins France a competing empire with the UK]! Forget everything you know about the Opium Wars! Forget everything you know about the Prussian hegemony in Germany [I think Austria and Prussia are still fighting over that one...]! Forget everything that you know about the world as you know it today!!! That is our world! And we have all composed [the ones that did it anyway...] a comprehensive history of our nations as if things were in this way. France and Britain are still at each others necks for global empire [albeit more tacit and cooperative]. China has grown into a modern fatherly-Asian state that seeks to oppose the Western imperialist drives in Asia. The Ottoman Empire still clings to its last bastions of Islamic autonomy. Heck, even Ethiopia gets a break and conquers a lot of the Sudan [although I know no other reason other than to compete against the French...]! So if any of this sounds interesting to you, PLEASE FOR THE LUVAGOD JOIN THIS THREAD AS THE THE NETHERLANDS!!! [or any nation on the list...]


list of still claimable nations

Holland

this list is for claimable nations of lesser importance
Denmark-Norway
Sweden
The Papal States
Mughal Empire
Ethiopia
Venice
Bavaria
Hawaii
Afghanistan
Hesse
Munster
Cologne
The Palatinate
Mecklemburg
Holstien
Wurzburg
Lundburg
Anhalt
Genoa
Modena
Florence
Sardinia-Piedmont
Padua
Naples
Switzerland

China (has a history already made by pre. player)

this is the most reasent map (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Naktan_Industries/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=191043) that we have. though it is more then likly to change at least a little

claimed nations:

Spain(Nebarri Prime)
England(The Beltway)
Russia(Quaon)
France(Titicus)
Austria(Czar Natovski Romanov)
Japan(Zatoichis)
Siam(Mare Serenus)
Prussia(Altusha)
Ottoman Empire(Vietnamexico)
Portugal(Lachenburg)
Poland(The Lightning Star)

link to forum: http://s12.invisionfree.com/Long_18th_Century/index.php?act=idx

bump

is this to different and to unexplained to be of anyones interast?

It sounds interesting; however, it's important to note the sheer amount of change involved in this timeline. For instance, if there had been no Seven Years' War, and thus no American/French Revolutions, then there would not necessarily be a Germany, as Prussia only became a force for German reuinification after the Napoleonic Wars.

then perhaps we could have the German states seperat, and hand the German colonyies over to Prussia?

What would help is a history of events from 1750 to 1930. Some thoughts:

England is likely to become a constitutional monarchy, along with Holland - although Holland's is less democratic than Englands's. England may continue to be named England, as opposed to the UK, and will probably retain Hanover. It will likely divide India with France, assuming that the two nations don't war with each other at some other point in this TL.

Prussia is likely to remain a moderate power in Germany. It will colonize, to some extent, and may remain a loose English ally. It will probably remain autocratic, and there is no reason why it would be enlightened.

Spain will be weak, but not incredibly weak. Its colonies are less likely to be independent, but extremely likely to want independence. It will probably remain autocratic, and there is no reason why it would be enlightened. It probably will not attempt to gain more colonies, due to simple exhaustion at keeping control of its own colonies.

Austria [note: not Austria-Hungary] will be a huge player in Central Europe, possibly retaining control of Northern Italy and likely to have seized territory in the Balkans. It is a near-certain ally with Spain, and hates Prussia. Further, it may colonize. In terms of government, it will probably be an enlightened autocracy - "Everything for the people, nothing by the people."

Russia will be a decent power, and will be a rival of England and Poland. It loathes the Ottomans, who it may have taken territory from. It's certainly an autocratic state, and may colonize, although its focus is in Central and Western Asia.

The Ottoman Empire will be intact, but reeling. It will not colonize, and loathes Russia and Austria. It is probably still an autocracy.

France remains autocratic - without the debts incurred by the Seven Years' War and Revolutionary War, it won't have needed to call the Estates General. It colonizes, and rivals England everywhere, from the Americas to Africa to India. It is lukewarm towards Austria.

By the way, if you can help put together maps and histories, I'll play as England. How's one-week years sound?

What would help is a history of events from 1750 to 1930. Some thoughts:

England is likely to become a constitutional monarchy, along with Holland - although Holland's is less democratic than Englands's. England may continue to be named England, as opposed to the UK, and will probably retain Hanover. It will likely divide India with France, assuming that the two nations don't war with each other at some other point in this TL.

Prussia is likely to remain a moderate power in Germany. It will colonize, to some extent, and may remain a loose English ally. It will probably remain autocratic, and there is no reason why it would be enlightened.

Spain will be weak, but not incredibly weak. Its colonies are less likely to be independent, but extremely likely to want independence. It will probably remain autocratic, and there is no reason why it would be enlightened. It probably will not attempt to gain more colonies, due to simple exhaustion at keeping control of its own colonies.

Austria [note: not Austria-Hungary] will be a huge player in Central Europe, possibly retaining control of Northern Italy and likely to have seized territory in the Balkans. It is a near-certain ally with Spain, and hates Prussia. Further, it may colonize. In terms of government, it will probably be an enlightened autocracy - "Everything for the people, nothing by the people."

Russia will be a decent power, and will be a rival of England and Poland. It loathes the Ottomans, who it may have taken territory from. It's certainly an autocratic state, and may colonize, although its focus is in Central and Western Asia.

The Ottoman Empire will be intact, but reeling. It will not colonize, and loathes Russia and Austria. It is probably still an autocracy.

France remains autocratic - without the debts incurred by the Seven Years' War and Revolutionary War, it won't have needed to call the Estates General. It colonizes, and rivals England everywhere, from the Americas to Africa to India. It is lukewarm towards Austria.

By the way, if you can help put together maps and histories, I'll play as England. How's one-week years sound?

i can try and help with maps and histories. one-week years sound good to me...

Excellent. Now, if we could encourage more nations to join...

bump for more nations...

Maybe we ought to change the title to something like "The Long Eighteenth Century" in order to help attract more nations?

Maybe we ought to change the title to something like "The Long Eighteenth Century" in order to help attract more nations?

i am you could say sorta a newbie when it comes to changing things. i am unsure how to change the name of the thread. though i have edited the title is does not seem to apply to the real title. if you know how then please do tell me

It seems that only you can request a title change. Here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=438203) is how; here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=1231) is where.

aside from all that Naktan is in other forums, I wouldn't mind taking China or Russia. A flip of a coin says China.

It might also help to have each nation build a collective history and try to mix and match the sentiments. Bearing in mind that Europe, while it has been a seat of power, has also been a seat of war, so to say the least, borders in Europe from that time were and would perhaps remain dynamic.

England, 1754-1930

1754: Tensions over the Ohio Valley with France lead to the Treaty of Richmond, negotiated between Ensign Jumonville, representing France, and Colonel Washington, representing Virginia, in which the Virginia Colony agreed to share rule with France in the Ohio Valley for a period of twenty years.
1760: King George II dies; King George III takes the throne.
1769: James Watt invents the first practicable steam engine
1774: Boundaries from the Treaty of Richmond become permanent.
1776: Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations published, along with Thomas Jefferson's On Practical Applications of the Social Contract in Virginia AH; a treatise on how to secure Enlightenment ideals, with examples from the Virginia colony .
1780: A great hurricane strikes the Antilles, killing over fifteen thousand in Barbados.
1782: Benjamin Franklin successfully organizes the First Constitutional Convention of America AH; forms a framework for a semi-autonomous government for the colonies, in order to better represent their interests in Parliament . Later that year, the Constitution of 1782, a series of laws that create a semi-autonomous Ireland, is passed.
1784: Alexander Hamilton publishes On Banks and the Capitalist System, developing his theory of the advantages of the Central Bank.
1787: Alexander Hamilton, a Senator from New York in the American legislature set up under the Constitutional Convention of America, gets his Bank Bill passed, thus forming the First Bank of America.
1793: Lord McCartney of the United Kingdom visits China; the mission ends in a slight failure, although relations with China are not badly hurt.
1801: Colonists push into Kentucky and Tennessee.
1803: New Brunswick joins America.
1815-1819: Burmese War - British forces, under Sir William Beresford, and later (after Beresford is wounded in the battle of Irrawaddy) Sir Arthur Wellesley, invade and conquer Burma.
1816: Sir William Beresford heads to Portugal after recovering from his wounds; he became the governor of Portugal, as the Portuguese royal family was in Rio de Janiero.
1820: King George III dies; George IV takes the throne.
1821-1824: Erie Canal built.
1821: Sir William Beresford flees Portugal during a liberal rebellion, settling down in Burma.
1826: Treaty of Bangkok signed between Siam and the UK. Britain secures trade with Siam in exchange for a pledge not to colonize Siam.
1830: King George IV dies; William IV takes the throne.
1833: Dongjing Conference - The UK and France, under the auspices of China, negotiate a final boundary between French and British India.
1837: King William IV dies; Victoria takes the throne.
1839: Slavery abolished.
1839-1846: The Southern Rebellion occurs in the southern, slave-holding region of America. It is eventually subdued, but at a cost of over 500,000 lives.
1842: Voting Reform Act - suffrage extended to all male Britons over the age of 21.
1845-1846: The Irish famine leads to large-scale migration to Canada and America, and, to a lesser extent, to Britain, India, France, Holland, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand.
1847-1856: Reconstruction in the American South - Britain revokes the autonomy of the rebellious states and forces them to grant the ex-slaves the right to vote, along with other civil rights. However, after Reconstruction ends, the South reverts to a racist society.
1850: Palmerston Mission rebuffed - Lord Palmerston visits Bangkok, but fails to convince King Rama III of Siam to grant extraterritoriality to British citizens.
1855: Charles Elliot, Ambassador to China, attempts and fails to negotiate extraterritoriality with Siam.
1856: Dongjing Conference - Prime Minister Palmerston visits Dongjing and secretly asks for support for a war with Japan, due to concerns over piracy
1857: London Conference - HRH Emperor HuangShuo of China visits London and presents a diplomatic option to resolve the crisis
1858-1860: Sepoy Rebellion - the Sepoys of the British East India Company rebel over claims that their new cartridges, which they must bite into as part of the loading process for their new guns, contain grease made from pig and cow fat. The rebellion is eventually crushed, after two years, but only due to the deployment of British army forces. The BEIC is disbanded; India is transferred to be ruled by HM Queen Victoria.
1866-1868: Indian War - Britain, frustrated with continual French restrictions and hassles on British trade from Madras, declares war; fighting occurs in India (French win at Madras and seize some border territory), the Americas (inconclusive), and on the seas (France defeated, although not decisively).
1868: Treaty of Philadelphia - France cedes Montana territory (now southern Canada, according to the map) to Britain, which gives up Indian territory under its control. Further, Britain appears dominant at sea.
1869: Canadian Constitution - Canada becomes semi-autonomous; Newfoundland and the Maritime Provinces refuse to sign.
1870-1890: Boer Wars - Britain and the Boers fight, off and on, throughout this period; Britain eventually wins the war.
1876: Telephone invented by Alexander Graham Bell.
1880: Light bulb patented by Thomas Alva Edison.
1888: First skyscraper, using an Otis elevator, erected, in New York City. It stands 150 feet tall and is fifteen stories. By 1930, NYC would have a thicket of skyscrapers, some as large as 80 stories.
1888-1889: Cuban War - Britain backs Cuban nationalist José Martí, who dies in December of 1888. The British take Tierra del Fuego, and, in the Treaty of Georgetown, Spain is obligated to remove tariffs on sugar going to the UK for a period of ten years.
1898-1901: Congolese War - the UK wins the French-held island of Ceylon, but loses northwestern Ohio in a global, but inconclusive, war.
1899-1900: The Great Migration - due to the increasing number of open factory positions, blacks in the southern states of America begin moving north in massive numbers.
1899: British Labour Party founded.
1900: Australia, South Africa, and New Zealand all become semi-autonomous nations.
1901: Queen Victoria dies; Edward VII takes the throne.
1906: Second Treaty of Bangkok - Formal diplomatic relations with Siam; Siamese-Malay, Siamese-Burmese, and Siamese-Vietnamese borders set down.
1910: King Edward VII dies; George V takes the throne.
1911-1913: The UK joins China and her allies in war with Japan, leading to the transfer of Okinowa and Fukuoka to Britain, the full opening of Japanese trade, and the payment of 10,000,000 yuan to the UK from Japan.
1912: Sinking of the RMS Titanic; First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill claims Japanese involvement, but an inquiry by the Board of Trade proves otherwise.
1914-1915: Shackleton's Expedition - Ernest Shackleton attempts to explore Antarctica, but when the Endurance, his ship, gets trapped in ice, he is forced to build a makeshift boat and row to South Georgia, where they signalled the need for aid. The Royal Navy, along with Spain, deploys ships to the area and rescues the entire crew of the Endurance.
1917: Representation of the People Act - extends suffrage to all Britons, male and female, over the age of 21.
1921: Frederick Banting discovers insulin.
1922: British Liberal Party collapses after economic recession hits the UK.
1926: Labour party leader Ramsay MacDonald becomes the first PM from his party.
1927: Penicillin discovered by Sir Alexander Fleming in a fluke experiment.
1928: Robert Goddard, scientist from Massachusetts, tests chemical rockets off Cape Cod.
1929: International Exposition in Wushi - MP Clement Atlee (Labour), representing the United Kingdom, attends this exposition in China, marking that nation's entrance onto the world stage.
1930: Tory Prime Minister Winston Churchill takes office.

(More to be added)

I'd like to have Russia.

added new players.

you can expect to have the name change to 'The Long Eighteenth Century' sometime

1750 -1930

The nature of the Qing Dynasty [China]:

1750's - Local administrators lead an expedition against the Turkic peoples of Sinkiang, crushing the revolts and granting them limited autonomy afterwards.

1776 - Against the majority opinion of scholars, the Emperor Wei declares a reform of the Confucian state system.

1793 - Lord McCartney of the United Kingdom visits China; the mission ends in a slight failure, although relations with the UK are not badly hurt.

1801 - China's first expedition to France ends up in a near failure, after incompatible cultural customs were never truly clarified during the visit; the emissaries never found their way to Paris...

1803 - China's Emperor suddenly dies, leaving the regent Empress Dowager to lead China, in place of her 3-year-old son, HuangShuo.

1813 - China's Empress, in an effort to decrease the power of the nobles, agrees to the local administrators' of Hubei and Liaodong Provinces on the necessity for reform in the manners of the world, leading to the official decree on the 8th month of the year 10 of the regency barring all state examinations to attain bureaucratic power in the government. The Tang Revoly begins.

1816 - After five years of setbacks, the regent's son [aged 16] assumes command of the Imperial Army and leaves the Imperial Palace in Beijing to fight the rebels in China. Meanwhile, the Empress Dowager continued to consolidate her power in China.

1818 - A fanatical string of successes leads HuangShuo to achieve ultimate victory against the rebellion, the first Emperor in a long time to achieve such a thing. During his tenure in the campaign, the Emperor invited foreign advisors (against the bidding of his personal command) to modernize his forces to achieve victory. In that time, he developed a fondness for the Western powers and hoped to emulate their sophistry.

1819 - Against tradition, Emperor HuangShuo renounces the old claims of the nobles of the land and declared that he would be the sole authority of China. This upsets the nobles further, having lost the meritocractic bureaucracy and their traditional rights as nobles. The Empress Dowager, realizing that her son is becoming a grave threat to her rule, decides to return power to the nobles, in order to gain their favor. The War of Qing begins, in which the Empress Dowager maintains the control of the northern warlords, while Emperor HuangShuo successfully gains the loyalty of the people in the Canton regions. Having resolved to start anew the Chinese Empire, he establishes a temporary capital in Nanjing, with his intentions to build a new capital, to help purge away to old edifices of the Empire before.

1820 - HuangShuo establishes the Shi [World] Dyansty (on the Gregorian New Year, to better coordinate the Chinese calendar, the Western calendars, and the Imperial calendar] with his new capital in the city of Dongjing [in GuangDong Province on the Xi River - next to the city of Guangzhou; it is practically for points and purposes Hong Kong...except it is on the mainland...]. He sends an invitation to all the other nations to gain recognition of his new dynasty [which based on his knowledge of the old order, the Empress will not do]. The first campaigns along the Yangtzi River are successful, perhaps out of necessity to keep the Qing forces away; Sinkiang is conquered by Shi forces, with their modern weaponry, but the Qing still hold a formidable support of the northern provinces.

1821 - HuangShuo gains recognition from Yuenan (Vietnam), Choson(Korea), and Iben(Japan) as they all legitimize the Shi Dynasty as the true China, as his forces continue to win against the Qing; a major setback as the Emperor HuangShuo is shot in battle near Chengdu in Sichuan province - the center of the Shi Dynasty.

1822 - After medical treatments, the Emperor is well again, in time to repulse the sieges of Nanjing and Shanghai. In the meantime, Sinkiang and Xizang fall to the Qing forces.

1823 - Despite being in the midst of war, the Emperor HuangShuo sends out emmissaries to the UK, France, Spain, Austria, and Russia to gain official recognition and attain military supplies. The Emperor send an armistice plea to the Empress Dowager, who ignores it, assuming that she is winning the war. The Spanish king offers a trade agreement and minor agreement on the recognition of the Shi claim to China. The Austrian Emperor offered military supplies, drill instructors, and important trade and recognition agreements. All of these actions helped to confide the trust of the Shi Emperor against the Qing.

1824 - After an intense battle near Wuhan, the Shi forces regain the upperhand, with a massive arsenal of artillery from Austria and England; the Imperial Army lays siege to Beijing, after firm advice from all of the military commanders on the best way to end the war.

1825 - While under siege, the Emperess Dowager dies. The city capitulates on the 12th day of the 2nd of the Year 5 of the Emperor's reign. Soon thereafter, the Qing dynasty collapses and accepts the reign of the new dynasty. In a speech in Nanjing, Emperor HuangShuo cites the mandate of heaven and dictates the new policy of his dynasty:

-To further western ties.
-To improve the state of China after the war.
-To consolidate the power of the Emperor in China.
-To industrialize the country and improve the general conditions of the peasants.
-To establish similar requirements in other Asian territories.

In this speech, while maintaining a friendliness to the Western powers, China cites its age-old right as the "Middle Kingdom" and declares that all affairs in Asia should be directed to the Chinese (similar to the Monroe Doctrine). This slightly upsets the Western powers and some of China's neighbors in the days to come.

1826 - Marriage of HuangShuo to the House of Li. HuangShuo proceeds to consolidate his authority in China, reverting most of the forbidden zones to the peasantry, redrawing the districts in China to fit new powers and liquidated the Imperial monopoly on Imperial trade, opening the Chinese market to all people. In the following months, a zealous group of Confucian scholars rise in rebellion, launching the Wu Rebellion. While HuangShuo easily crushes the armed uprising, he cannot easily stamp out the sentiments. He begins building docks in Fuzhou for the Imperial navy and begins construction of an Imperial Palace on the Xi River.

1827 - Revolts start to rivet in the autonomous provinces of Sinkiang and Xizang; HuangShuo brutally crushes them all. Citing on the Emperor ShurHuangDi, he employs legalistic measures to centralize his authority. HuangShuo opts to cease reconstruction on the Great Wall. The second of the great Wu Revolts occurs in the ninth month of the year, which HuangShuo crushes again with intense brutality.

1828 - With friendly relations to the Austrian Empire, HuangShuo visits Vienna to review the Austrian Empire in his first tour of Europe. He begins to assimilate ties with the Ottoman Turks in his trip south to Constantinople, requesting official recognition and diplomatic ties in Turkey.

1829 - Impressed by his visits in Europe, Huang Shuo returns home to face a country nearly riddled with revolts. After dealing with each revolt in person, HuangShuo returned to Dongjing to commence plans on the School of Foreign Learning. HuangShuo begins to improve ties with Spain and Russia...

1830 - HuangShuo nearly dies in a battle against rebels in Heilongjiang; he rules for the next six months from his bedside in Dongjing. During that time, a small elite circle of army commanders and loyal governors form a council in the name of the Emperor and execute HuangShuo's orders with as much as brutal and full effect as he would have. After his injury, HuangShuo forms a new bureaucracy, based on the loyalties of the people closest to him.

1831 - With this new bureaucracy, HuangShuo's edicts and centralization efforts proceed much more cleanly and with fewer rebellions. The Imperial Palace in Dongjing is completed and he invites the entire city into the Imperial Courtyard, where he reaffirms his pledge to lead China as a major world power, rather than to stick its head in the ground and ignore the progresses of the world.

1832 - In an effort to control the northern rebellious folk, HuangShuo institutes a forced removal of some 60,000 people from Beijing to Dongjing. This is first of several forced removals during his reign, cumulating in a total of 4,000,000 forced removals from Beijing and other northern cities to Dongjing. Unknowingly, he creates a future problem of shanty towns and poor slums in the capital.

1833 - HuangShuo invites delegates from the UK and France to settle something in Dongjing. During the conference, tensions regarding British, French, and Chinese borders along the Indian provinces regions are resolved in general consensus. Later, HuangShuo initiates a large reform to increase the industrial productivity of China, seeing as his country lags behind the Western powers in that field.

1834 - War breaks out with Yuenan after HuangShuo dictates to Yuenan, Choson, and Iben to reform in the ways as China is reforming. With a modern army and HuangShuo at the head of the army, Yuenan is utterly beaten and agrees to the concessions that he declared in his edict; [how will Japan (Iben) react to this decree?]

1835 - Period of relative stability. China's economy and industry increases significantly relative to the pre-Shi period. The military is among the most dominant in Asia, with large manpower resources and adequate technology. HuangShuo completes the renovation of the Fuzhou docks and sails the fleet to Japan and Korea, in a demonstration of China's modernization; still the country is not up to par with the Western powers.

1839 - The Longtzi Rebellion begins in Sichuan; HuangShuo leads the army out to defend against the rebellion, beating the army in every engagement. In the last engagement at the end of the year, HuangShuo develops a fever and returns to Dongjing to recuperate.

1842 - The Lonngtzi Rebellion is crushed finally, after three exhausting years. HuangShuo is still ill from various ailments, but he makes public appearances whenever his body can make the effort.

1843 - The Chinese legation arrives in Constantinople to attend a conference for the world as recognized by the Turks.

1844 - The Imperial Court announces the birth of the first child to HuangShuo, a male heir - they name him YongQin.

1847 - HuangShuo feels competent to return to the public scene and resumes his vigorous campaigns to modernize China into a great power. His apparent quest for superiority leads to suspicion among the European powers and more importantly with Iben [Japan] and the other tributary states.

1849 - Realizing that China is starting to lose its grip on the affairs of Asia, HuangShuo sends an emissary to Spain to discuss peaceful terms of a semi-formal alliance in the Pacific, granted their interests are mutual in the defense of the South China Seas [Taiwan and the Philippines], hoping to improve his ties with the West and likewise maintain a strong militay presence in all of the other Asian nations [Vietnam, Korea, and Japan]. The Spanish King accepted the proposals in a toast in the Imperial Emissary's tour of Sevilla.

1850 - HuangShuo, noting with some disdain that Portugal maintains a large presence in Macau, not too far from Dongjing, sends a request to Portugal in regards to the purchase back of the territory. With the consent of the Portuguese, Macau is reassimilated into China for a purchase of 10mil yuan HuangShuo leads the fleet out for an exercise in the Tsuchima Straits.

1852 - At the age of 8, YongQin joins HuangShuo in the public figure, trying to bolster his attention to the matters of the state and maintaining a positive, visible status in the country. HuangShuo wants YongQin to be a powerful leader like himself, in knowledge of military state affairs.

1856 - On the 36th anniversary of the Shi Dynasty, HuangShuo sends out invitations to all the nations with which he formally recognizes: UK, Spain, Austria, Siam, France, vietnam, Korea, Japan [Sweden, Ottomans, Portugal, Denmark, Bavaria, Genoa, Venice, Modena, Sardinia, Mughals, Persia, and Ethiopia] (how many come and how does it go?). During the celebrations, HuangShuo introduces the world politics to his son, and furthermore introduces the world to the modernizing China, to which the Western powers should take into regard, as technologically, China is near their equal in many matters. (From 1776 to 1856 [really 1820-1856], China modernizes considerably rapidly and to minimal instability crises). Many of the present legations offers words of great encouragement and humility to the vast developments and integration that the Shi Dynasty has accomplished in its history, to which HuangShuo offers the same remarks to those friendly nation. During the trip, the British legation attempts to convince HuangShuo to attack Japan, considering the rebellious nature of the Japanese pirates around the Tsushima Straits; HuangShuo decides to decline for the moment. The Siamese legation brings up talks to initiate a call to alliance, for consensual military action. His Excellency decides in his wisdom to accept the call.

1857 - YongQin visits London and Paris with the Imperial mission to the UK and France. Again, the British pressed YongQin for a war with Japan, but YongQin offered a compromise, promising that China would attack Japan with the UK if the pirates did not cease their activities. HuangShuo initiates the last of his most radical reforms - the emancipation of the peasants [in a bid to finally break the back of the nobles after years of compliance]. With a non-peasant class, the population of the urban centers grows dramatically, fueling socialist fervors.

1858 - HuangShuo goes to Constantinople to secure better relations with the Turks and to help bolster their falling position in Europe. The Renshui Rebellion strikes Shanghai and Nanjing. HuangShuo returns to assume command of the Imperial Army, taking YongQin with him. In the siege of the city, HuangShuo demonstrates his heartless brutality for rebellious subjects, and it falls in some part to YongQin.

1860 - China and Afghanistan go to war over the autonomy of the Sinkiang province. During the war, HuangShuo is severely injured as he led a cavalry charge. YongQin assumes command in Afghanistan and wins the war in two years. Doctors all say that the wounds incurred on HuangShuo were fatal and that he was certain to die within the year. As is in the tradition of Chinese Emperors, HuangShuo makes ready a burial name - Emperor Hao [white]. Kabul is taken.

1861 - HuangShuo dies. YongQin returns temporarily to Dongjing to attend the burial in the Imperial Courtyard. Seizing opportunity of the late Emperor's death, several provinces claim autonomy as YongQin is away in Afghanistan. The military command is unable to prevent the autonomy of Xizang and Qihan.

1862 - YongQin concludes the war in Afghanistan in return for Afghanistan's cessation of meddling intrusions in the state of China and reparations of a great sum. YongQin proceeds to extinguish the autonomous provinces, in a manner more brutal than HuangShuo. In the immediate months following the capitulation of Lhasa, YongQin demands the loyalty of all the governors and all the commanders in the realm of China.

1863 - YongQin marries into the Liu Family and has a daughter born later. The Japanese pirates situation is resolved, leaving British merchant interests in the Eastt Asia proper unhindered as YongQin proceeds to destroy any remnants of the pirate fleet that fail to adhere to his demands. The Japanese navy later joins in thte effort to crush the pirates near Kagoshima in 1865.

1864 - YongQin marries into another family and has another daughter in 1866.

1866 - In a goodwill trip to Spain, YongQin professes China's new ally in the West [traditionally, the Ottomans were favored by China as a non-Western Western power; but YongQin's favor with the Muslims fell out in the war in Afghanistan]. The ties worked well for China and Spain, all to the detriment of the Ottomans.

1867 - YongQin marries a third wife [from Spain] and has a daughter later that year. YongQin proceeds to purge the military ranks, fearing a conspiracy plot to overthrow him, in part because of a lack of a male heir to the throne...

1868 - YongQin's Spanish wife bears a son, named XiZhou. YongQin sends a delegation to Bangkok to offer eulogies to the late King Mongkut, and likewise supporting the reign of King Chulalongkorn. The Chinese legation also discussed expanding the alliance roles of both China and Siam to simply an alliance [much like the Chinese protection pacts with Vietnam, Korea, and Japan, except with a full grant of autonomy to Siam] and discuss trade rights with the Siamese people, especially concerning free trade.

1869 - Chinese scientists, in coordination with Austrian and French students at the Shanghai Physics Institution, make drastic improvements to the rifle designs, improving the accuracy, range, and general efficiency of the rifle design.

1871 - YongQin's first wife bears him a son, named DongZhou.

1872 - YongQin declares war on the Mughal Empire, in rage over some issues on the treatment of Muslims in his country. He sends an emissary to the UK to propose an alliance against the Mughals.

1873 - The war ends with no considerable gains for China. In truth, the war hurt China more than it hurt the Mughals; YongQin begins a general purge against all Muslims in his territory, fearing a rebellion from them. All the purges leads to strikes in the factories across China. YongWin institutes martial order in all the nation's factories.

1874 - YongQin purchases the Marianas Islands from Spain for 150mil yuan.

1880 - 60th anniversary celebrations for the Shi Dynasty.

1891 - Before YongQin visits the Hawaiian Islands to make preparations for peaceful use of their land, in a bid to continue China's expansion into the Pacific, he dies in Beijing; after a short dispute in Dongjing, the court accepts Emperor Xizhou, the son of the YongQin's Spanish wife. For the first time, XiZhou drops the martial order of China.

1893 - XiZhou dies in Dongjing. DongZhou succeeds the throne without a problem.

1898 - Dongzhou's heir - ZhengTzi - is born to the Empress WaiMa.

1899 - Dongzhou dies in an accident, while leading the Imperial Army in parade, after his horse fell out under him and caused a hemorrhage. WaiMa assumes a regency, pledging to step down once ZhengTzi became of age.

1900 - Riots break out in Shanghai, Chungqing, Chengdu, and Wuhan against the Empress Dowager's rule. Unlike the two predecesors, WaiMa institutes martial order in the revolting cities, to secure peace and order to prepare China for the young Emperor. Empress WaiMa looks abroad for good teachers, since she does not trust the traditional court instructors, looking in places like Spain, Austria, France, UK, and the Ottomans.

1902 - WaiMa hires a horse trainer and instructor from Mongolia to teach ZhengTzi to ride a horse and learn how to perform well on the steed, in the manner of Emperor Hao's early reign. She also hires a teacher from Spain to teach him science, technology, and Western customs. Finally, she hires LiHongZhang to teach ZhengTzi on how to run the Chinese state in a wise, enlightened manner - to treat the people fairly, exercise good force, deal with the Western Powers in their imperialistic ambitions, and among things, China's history, especially of Emperor Hao's rise to power.

1903 - War with [someone...anyone?]. WaiMa goes out to secure support from Spain [whomever] against [the said blah].

1905 - War ends [how?...].

1910 - In reaction to defiance, WaiMa sends three thousand soldiers into Vietnam to enforce the modernization policy. The soldiers are attacked, leading to a general invasion of Vietnam. WaiMa calls back the troops, in response to criticism on China's tributary policy.

1911 - ZhengTzi visits Rome, and meets with the Pope. WaiMa concludes a treaty with the Papal States, offering Rome authority over Catholics in China, as long as the authority from Rome does not interfere with China's authority with its citizens [a major move by WaiMa to improve relations with the Catholics in Spain and Austria]. The Chinese navy blockades Kyoto and Nagoya, in response to Japan's increasing unwillingness to cooperate with China. Taking the precedence fom Vietnam, Japan ignores the calls to conform, leading to the Sino-Japanese War. WaiMa receives the support of Vietnam [surprisingly], Korea, and Siam (maybe if Siam accepts) against the single power in Japan. Later, WaiMa wins the support of the British navy to attack Japan, noting their previous attempts to attack Japan with China's consent.

1912 - The Japanese attempt to attack Sakhalin Island, but the combined Chinese and Siamese [again, pending their support] navy crushes the invasion fleet at the Straits of Sendoku. The Chinese navy seizes Japanese islands near Taiwan, while Britain seizes Okinawa and Fukuoka. The Chinese and Korean army attack Shikoku via the Tsushima Straits.

1913 - With meditation from [whoever isn't fighting], China and Japan conclude peace, on the terms that Japan complies with the Chinese calls to modernize, China receives its fair share of territory, Britain receives its fair share of territory [Okinawa and the like], and reparations of 10mil yuan are paid to each of the participating countries [China, Vietnam, Korea, Siam, and UK]. At home, WaiMa is hailed as a national hero.

1915 - WaiMa formally announces the ascension of ZhengTzi on the 100th anniversary of the Shi Dynasty.

1920 - ZhengTzi becomes Emperor peacefully, as WaiMa semi-formally retires to a life of aged-motherly care for her son. ZhengTzi invites all the delegates from around the world to attend the 100th anniversary celebrations. In the 5th month, ZhengTzi visits London, Paris, Madrid, Vienna, Berlin, Moscow, and Constantinople in a good-will trip to all of the Western nations. When he returns, ZhengTzi initiates a massive reform policy to keep China's modernization in pace with the Western powers, if not better than them. He visits Hanoi, Seoul, Bangkok, and Kyoto in good-will trips to the Asian nations, to affirm China's role as a "fatherly" figure to guide the Asian states to autonomy from the Imperialism of the Western nations.

1921 - ZhengTzi officially changes the capital's name from Dongjing to Yajing, which he thinks is more appropriate. Faced with a growing problem of over-population, ZhengTzi stops the practice of forced relocations from other cities into Yajing.

1922 - ZhengTzi attends the New Year's celebrations in Vienna, to help improve already good relations with Austria. While there, the two Emperors asserted a formal economic and military alliance between Austria and China. ZhengTzi marries Liu NianMei. WaiMa goes on a tour of China, to review the plight of the people. She returns to Yajing and explains the necessiy to improve working conditions for the Chinese people. Rebellion in Vietnam; ZhengTzi sends a small expedition to help control the riots and revolts.

1923 - ZhengTzi pledges a grand sum of 500mil yuan to solve the problem of infrastructure inadequacies in China, hoping to connect China to all parts of the country. With improved transportation to the autonomous provinces in the west and the ever-present dissentors in the north, ZhengTzi wants a better way to manage his affairs in travelling from one part of the country to another.

1924 - After an assassination attempt by Muslim nationals, ZhengTzi begins a forceful policy in controlling the Muslim population while realizing that their dissent resulted from poor living standards and relations with the Muslim world. In an attempt to ameliorate the religious tensions in China, he orders the construction of a mosque in Wushi, the capital of Sinkiang; visits Cairo and Makkah, pledging tolerance of Muslim practices in China; and opens trade dialogues with the Mughals and the Afghans. After his tour in Ottoman Arabia, ZhengTzi visited Vienna and Paris.

1925 - Birth of ShanHui in Yajing. ZhengTzi sends troops to quell riots in Korea, realizing that the Asian nations are succombing to the faults of modernization. In the hopes to alleviate the situations in their countries, ZhengTzi sends officers and contract workers to Vietnam, Korea, and Japan [maybe Siam if they're willing to have it] to aid in modernization and the general welfare of the citizens of those countries. WaiMa visits Manila to offer the Imperial Court's support of a Chinese national organization in the Philippines, all to improve domestic ties within Spanish territories to Chinese heritage. In her speech to the convention, she reminds all Chinese: "No matter where you are, China shall always be on your mind. And with China on mind, you do all to live well in these foreign lands, whether it is to find pleasures in the West or to bring pleasures to them." While ZhengTzi didn't particularly like the sentiments that his mother expressed, he nonetheless supported her words in founding a scholastic institution in Fuzhou to invite foreign scholars to China and likewise to send Chinese scholars abroad to learn more about other cultures than already known.

1926 - Chinese inventors revolutionize industrial chemistry in the invention of a new brand of hydrocarbon polymers [i.e. nylon...]. At the same time, a modest scientist improves the extraction method in obtaining pencillin from orange molds [pending its discovery]. Finally, a new engine design in Beijing leads to a revolution in train construction, efficiency, and viability [pending the invention of the railroad]. With these numerous breakthroughs, ZhengTzi presses for the technologies for the improvement of the welfare of the people, their working conditions and their living standards. After a visit to Chengdu, ZhengTzi begins preparations for the codification labor practices, restricting the legalistic practices of the former years, encouraging fair wages, opening markets to foreign competition, and provisions for establishing a minimum of 30 days cumulative in paid leave-time for all workers.

1927 - A major revolt in Heilongjiang province nearly unsettles the government as ZhengTzi carefully trots the line between authoritative force and enlightened despotism. He arrived in Harbin to negotiate with the rioting factions, until the scene became so violent that he ordered the city under martial law. After two weeks of the order, he agreed to meet the more moderate faction leaders in Beijing, where they resolved the issue, dealing with ethnicity rights, labor practice management, and some liberalization of the strict anti-Confucian ideals, enforced since the time of HuangShuo. Later, ZhengTzi pledged to enforce moderation and tolerance of religious beliefs in China [considering that China had become a boiling pot of Protestantism, Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism, Confucianism, and even some Hinduism, these orders were out of necessity to avoid extreme reactions]. In following with these orders, he orders the construction of a cathedral in Guangdong, dedicated to Pope Pius VI in his fifth year as the Supreme Pontiff of the Papal States. During the course of the dedications, Emperor Franz II arrives in his first tour of Asia, where Emperor ZhengTzi and Emperor Franz II reaffirms their countries' commitment to the alliance, and further to demonstrates China's role in protecting the religious freedom of Catholics in China. ZhengTzi also visits the Marianas Islands [Maliyana Dao], after the completion of the Governor's Palace in Sandao [on the island of Saipan]. He also visited the docks and the sugarcane plantations there, in the twenty years of development.

1928 - Tensions between Japan and China heat up, as Japanese ministers repeatedly cry out against the "imperialistic" Chinese. While ZhengTzi doesn't want to lose control over Japan, he also doesn't to set the precedent of engaging in imperialistic ventures against its neighbors. He carefully sites the Sino-Japanese, especially how the Thai and Chinese fleets annihilated the Japanese navy, and their loss of several islands, including Okinawa and Fukuoka; these comments diffuse the situation for the moment, but there lingers distrust on both sides. ZhengTzi makes a trip to Madrid, to reaffirm China's commitment to the Sino-Spanish alliance.

1929 - ZhengTzi opens the city of Wushi to an international exposition, having completed the railroad from Wushi to Yajing and to Beijing; the architects in the mosque make it a model of Islamic construction outside the Ottoman Empire, and the numerous technological advances made in China are being displayed for the world to marvel. In all, delegates fromo the UK, France [all nations wanting to attend the Wushi Expo] arrived in Wushi to acknowledge China's growing role as a modern, industrialized, civil, and powerful state in the century.

[And I stop for reflection...]

For all those interested, I'm drafting a map, based on the world in 1930 so I can get an idea of where the nations are...Do realize that there are a whole bunch of nations, not to mention little territories that get associated with other nations...so...tell me where all of your colonies are in 1930...that way, we can get a better idea of where to go from there... [I'd rather you tell me where your colonies are rather I dictate where they go, since it boils down to less bias...all of the uncharted territory will be a green color...the rest will be color coded by nations...and just because no one's playing some nation like the United Provinces of the Netherlands doesn't mean you can eat up Indonesia...I can verify the truths...and lastly, this is a map of 1930...there will still be lots of nations without the Napoleonic Wars, the various German wars and Italian Wars...essentially, those wars literally "cleaned" up Europe into a nice tidy picture. And of course, without the French Revolution, there are little conceptions of Rousseau's treatises on the rights of men except in theory...But still, it'll be fun :)]

oh, and tell me the names of your capitals and where they are situated relative to the present city [if it's something like "LONDON" I'll know where that is, but if you have a history that's lilke what I've gotten for China, tell me approximately where the capital is in real life so I can arrange that...

For all those interested, I'm drafting a map, based on the world in 1930 so I can get an idea of where the nations are...Do realize that there are a whole bunch of nations, not to mention little territories that get associated with other nations...so...tell me where all of your colonies are in 1930...that way, we can get a better idea of where to go from there... [I'd rather you tell me where your colonies are rather I dictate where they go, since it boils down to less bias...all of the uncharted territory will be a green color...the rest will be color coded by nations...and just because no one's playing some nation like the United Provinces of the Netherlands doesn't mean you can eat up Indonesia...I can verify the truths...and lastly, this is a map of 1930...there will still be lots of nations without the Napoleonic Wars, the various German wars and Italian Wars...essentially, those wars literally "cleaned" up Europe into a nice tidy picture. And of course, without the French Revolution, there are little conceptions of Rousseau's treatises on the rights of men except in theory...But still, it'll be fun :)]Well, I'd like to say that a good part of where the soviet union use to be should be a russian colony. Is that okay?

oh, and tell me the names of your capitals and where they are situated relative to the present city [if it's something like "LONDON" I'll know where that is, but if you have a history that's lilke what I've gotten for China, tell me approximately where the capital is in real life so I can arrange that...

for now its Madrid, unless history changes that...

Two questions, will this be done on an off-site board?
For the small nations, could there be multiple claims?

Rousseau, Locke, and other Enlightenment scholars will still be known about, especially in England and Holland. Equally interesting will be the Utilitarians, such as Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill, and the Pragmatists, like William James.

London is the capital of England.

England claims: The British Isles, Hannover, Minorca, Malta, Cyprus, the 13 colonies, Ohio, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, Rupert's Land (here, the rest of Canada less Quebec, British Columbia, and the Yukon Territory), Bengal (RL Bangladesh and Northern India), Calcutta, Singapore, South Africa (including Lesotho and Swaziland), the Falklands, Jamaica, the Bahamas, St. Kitts and Nevis, British Honduras (RL Belize), Guyana, Malaya (RL Malaysia), Brunei, Sierra Leone, Ghana, Congo (the Republic, not the DRC), Kenya, Socotra (a little island off Yemen), Bushehr (a port on the coast of RL Iran; equivalent to RL Kuwait), Okinowa, Fukuoka (a port in Japan; similar to RL Hong Kong), Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, Samoa, Montana, Colorado, Idaho, Wyoming, Rhodesia (RL Zimbabwe), Burma, Nigeria, St. Helena, Ascension Island, Antigua and Barbuda, Bermuda, Montserrat, British Virgin Islands, Turks and Caicos, Barbados, Anguilla, the Mosquito Coast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosquito_Coast), and Pakistan. Whew!

Notes - The Ottoman Empire does not lose Egypt, nor does it lose Kuwait and Aden. China does not lose Hong Kong.

Naktan - How about China being open to trade on its own terms? In other words, Europeans can trade at will, but they do not get extraterritoriality unless they are diplomats.
As for getting China to be able to beat Japan, why not reduce Japan's power instead? Perhaps the Opium Wars, or something similar, could be fought against Japan...
I assume China will be a loose English friend?

I'm interested in joining this rp as France (especially since they are so much better now)

A list of nations that need to be claimed:
Austria
Prussia
Holland
The Ottoman Empire

A partial list of nations that could also be claimed:
Japan
Serbia
Bulgaria
Rumania
Greece
Montenegro
Albania
Sardinia-Piedmont (or possibly Italy)
Portugal
Bavaria

And more...

Two questions, will this be done on an off-site board?
For the small nations, could there be multiple claims?

in my experiances off-site boards die very fast...as for small nations, i would prefer one one nation...

Russia Claims:
Ukraine, Hungary, Poland, Berlin, Finland, Estonia, Lativia, and Lithunia.

You might want to scratch Berlin, pending the approval of a Prussia; it's their capital, after all. Hungary's a bit far for Russia, and Austria will certainly need to approve that level of a change in their fortunes. Belarus, and much of Iran, along with the nations on the Caspian, on the other hand...
You can claim Alaska, Yukon, BC, Washington, and possibly Oregon; I left them all open to you, due to the French making expansion in Northwest Canada difficult for England. You'll have to talk to Spain about Oregon, however.

If it's alright, I'll take Savoy (Sardinia-Piedmont) off your hands.

The France claims:

Quebec, Ontario, the Ohio River Valley, the Mississippi River Valley, Louisiana, Newfoundland, Algeria, Tunisia, Mauretania, Mali, Niger, Chad, Senegal, Morocco, Central African Republic, Gabon, Congo (DR), Benin, Ivory Coast, Togo, Guinea, Madagascar, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Djibouti, Mauritius, Seychelles, French Guiana, Haiti, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Southern India

Eh, we English pigdogs already claimed Newfoundland and the state of Ohio (and just that state; not Indiana, Michigan, Iowa, or Minnesota); take it up with Naktan. As for other claims: Dominica's available (along with a few other Caribbean islands), as is Ceylon (Sri Lanka), although we might want to leave the latter to Holland or Portugal.

Rousseau, Locke, and other Enlightenment scholars will still be known about, especially in England and Holland. Equally interesting will be the Utilitarians, such as Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill, and the Pragmatists, like William James.

London is the capital of England.

England claims: The British Isles, Hannover, Minorca, Malta, Cyprus, the 13 colonies, Ohio, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, Rupert's Land (here, the rest of Canada less Quebec, British Columbia, and the Yukon Territory), Bengal (RL Bangladesh and Northern India), Calcutta, Singapore, South Africa (including Lesotho and Swaziland), the Falklands, Jamaica, the Bahamas, St. Kitts and Nevis, British Honduras (RL Belize), Guyana, Malaya (RL Malaysia), Brunei, Sierra Leone, Ghana, Congo (the Republic, not the DRC), Kenya, Socotra (a little island off Yemen), Bushehr (a port on the coast of RL Iran; equivalent to RL Kuwait), Okinowa, Fukuoka (a port in Japan; similar to RL Hong Kong), Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, Samoa, Montana, Colorado, Idaho, Wyoming, Rhodesia (RL Zimbabwe), Burma, Nigeria, St. Helena, Ascension Island, Antigua and Barbuda, Bermuda, Montserrat, British Virgin Islands, Turks and Caicos, Barbados, Anguilla, the Mosquito Coast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosquito_Coast), and Pakistan. Whew!

Notes - The Ottoman Empire does not lose Egypt, nor does it lose Kuwait and Aden. China does not lose Hong Kong.

Naktan - How about China being open to trade on its own terms? In other words, Europeans can trade at will, but they do not get extraterritoriality unless they are diplomats.
As for getting China to be able to beat Japan, why not reduce Japan's power instead? Perhaps the Opium Wars, or something similar, could be fought against Japan...
I assume China will be a loose English friend?

First of all, I did not say that they did not exist; there would be no proven government that applies their learning (although over time, somethings would have to assimilate because of the rise off nationalism - it is generally agreed that while the Napoleonic wars did not cause nationalism, it certainly accelerated its progress.

Second of all, you do realize that the Mughals still existed in the mid-18th century. One of the reasons the British wown India was because of the Napoleonic wars (under the command of Sir Wellesley's little brother, still considered the scourge of the East India Trading Company...). Granted, the Mughals were weak, but they would have still existed if France didn't lose its share of colonies there - so I can't give you the entirety of India [perhaps as far as near Delhi...)

Third of all, I'd give you all of those islands, except the map isn't that detailed...It would be best to simply state those islands as territories and leave them at that...of course, I'll try to get them in but I guarantee them all...

Fourth of all, Japan's rise to power was pre-empted by China's "shocking" defeat in the Opium Wars. They became afraid of the West, and rather than blocking off the world and turning more inward, they overthrew their government and established a more friendly government to the powers in the West (all to the detriment of China...) As you can see, I'm doing pretty much the same thing in China...so we'll see how Japan turns out.

Fifth of all, under a more pro-outside China government, the Chinese would be more open to trade with other nations...but we'd have to discuss that [and to resolve the McCartney mission as well...].

Sixth of all, Iran is its own government of Persia. Russia would have to erase that country before it controlled the Caspian sea...at this time, it would be more appropriate to have Russia expanding into the Uzbek and Khazak regions, moving into Central Asia, not to mention expanding into conflicting spheres of the New World with Spain, UK, and possibly France.

Seventh of all, Prussia wouldn't have been as great a power without the Seven Years war. After all, it was Frederik the Great's war, even if he did take Silesia in the war of Austrian Succession. Bavaria and Austria were still the dominant powers in the Holy Roman Empire [to which Austria was Emperor].

Finally, I suppose that I should be taking my claim in Asia...

The Chinese would be controlling all of the lands south of the Amur river, including Mongolia; Taiwan [Formosa]; and pretty much all the rest of the territory in RL China. Korea and Vietnam would be Chinese protectorates [and I'd say the same for Japan if no one plays them...].

Having fun making this map... :headbang:

OH AND BTW, I'd add Portugal, Persia, and the Papal States to the important list; may be Denmark, Mughal India, and Venice as a lesser important power. Seeing as Sardinia is already taken, Sicily might be a lesser power [unless Spain claims them, which would be historically true. Portugal is just as important as the Netherlands, because they own Brazil and several possessions in Africa [notably among Socotra, but I'll leave that to UK...] Persia is Iran in this day, so they would be important in fending off the Russians. And the Papal States simply because they're Rome and most of the nations that are listed have some sort of ties to Rome. And not to incite anyone, but Denmark has Greenland and Iceland...Mughal India for reasons stated earlier...Venice because they were historically the only republic in Europe, and because Venice acted as a buffer between France and Austria.

The France claims:

Quebec, Ontario, the Ohio River Valley, the Mississippi River Valley, Louisiana, Newfoundland, Algeria, Tunisia, Mauretania, Mali, Niger, Chad, Senegal, Morocco, Central African Republic, Gabon, Congo (DR), Benin, Ivory Coast, Togo, Guinea, Madagascar, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Djibouti, Mauritius, Seychelles, French Guiana, Haiti, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Southern India

I can do everything except for Newfoundland, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia...NewFoundland because it's traditionally British [the island part of it at least...] and Vietnam because France won that in a war with China in 1885, during the various Opium Wars...

I surprised neither France nor England claimed Ceylon, as it was one of their prized debates about Indian territories historically...

Dominica's available (along with a few other Caribbean islands)

you talking about the Dominican Republic, as he has claimed Haiti. now for my claims


Rio de oro(possibly), Rio muni, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Spanish Haiti(Dominican Republic), Spanish Florida, Philippines, New Spain(Mexico, Central America, California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas, ), New Granada(Ecuador, Panama, Venezuela), Peru(Peru and Chile), Rio de la plata(Argentina, Bolivia, Paraguay and Uruguay) and Sicily if i may.

A list of nations that need to be claimed:
Austria
Prussia
Holland
The Ottoman Empire

A partial list of nations that could also be claimed:
Japan
Serbia
Bulgaria
Rumania
Greece
Montenegro
Albania
Sardinia-Piedmont (or possibly Italy)
Portugal
Bavaria

And more...

I would like to play as The Austro-hungarian empire, assuming you can give me some of the lands youve listed as seperate states such as serbia, bulgaria, rumania, and albania especially. But I would ask you to consider influence/control of greece as well. It is my understanding that I would retain much of these lands in the event that ww1 wasnt devestating to the empire, as you stated in your first few posts. I have to admit Im new at this but willing to learn and play by the rules. thx

PS-this might make it easier on you as well, not having to find ppl to play all these nations.

On the other hand, Britain was moving towards a more democratic state during this time period, although it wasn't really until the 1830s that they became a democratic state (if I remember accurately).

Map claims: I understand that the Mughals exist. Keep them in Central India; they'll be a buffer between the French and us English.
I meant Dominica, as in the island in the Caribbean. The DR is Spanish; Saint Dominque (aka Haiti) is French.
Spain forgot to claim the Phillippines and Guam; I assume this was negligence, as opposed to intent?

Russia historically wanted ports in the Med. They also historically rivaled England in Central Asia; w/o easy access to Central Asia by England, Russia should be able to make it into Afghanistan, and possibly hold Pakistan. Failing that, the Russians would have moved into Persia, and they might still have, anyways, seeing as how Persia was weak at the time. The New World is mostly closed off; Spain, Russia, France, and England will be competing for the interior of the Americas.

Denmark also retains what are now the US Virgin Islands.

Prussia will remain powerful, although, w/o Silesia, it will not dominate. More importantly, its alliance with England makes it useful to me.

Poland is necessary. It's going to be a powerful thorn in Russia's side; it holds Lithuania and Belarus, along with much of modern day Poland.

Venice stays. It may end up taking over Tunis, although it might not.

Thoughts on Ethiopia, Liberia, Siam (Thailand), and independent states in the New World (if any)?

Russia Claims:
Ukraine, Hungary, Poland, Berlin, Finland, Estonia, Lativia, and Lithunia.

Not to be excessively critical, but I forgot to mention that Poland died as a result of Prussia becoming too strong...

I suppose that we should open alot of details to debate, since the Seven Years War apparently caused a lot of things that most people don't seem to realize anymore...

I would like to play as The Austro-hungarian empire, assuming you can give me some of the lands youve listed as seperate states such as serbia, bulgaria, rumania, and albania especially. But I would ask you to consider influence/control of greece as well. It is my understanding that I would retain much of these lands in the event that ww1 wasnt devestating to the empire, as you stated in your first few posts. I have to admit Im new at this but willing to learn and play by the rules. thx

PS-this might make it easier on you as well, not having to find ppl to play all these nations.

On another note(I know im being greedy, but I would like the possiblity considered), I would like to have influence in northern Italy as before Napoleon defeated them(and since youre playing that napoleon didnt exist), the austrians had a controlling interest in mcuh of northern italy, could I have this as well? I would like to know your considerations on these as I would like to do a timeline similiar to what youve done for china.

On the other hand, Britain was moving towards a more democratic state during this time period, although it wasn't really until the 1830s that they became a democratic state (if I remember accurately).

Map claims: I understand that the Mughals exist. Keep them in Central India; they'll be a buffer between the French and us English.

Russia historically wanted ports in the Med. They also historically rivaled England in Central Asia; w/o easy access to Central Asia by England, Russia should be able to make it into Afghanistan, and possibly hold Pakistan. Failing that, the Russians would have moved into Persia, and they might still have, anyways, seeing as how Persia was weak at the time. The New World is mostly closed off; Spain, Russia, France, and England will be competing for the interior of the Americas.

Denmark also retains what are now the US Virgin Islands.

Prussia will remain powerful, although, w/o Silesia, it will not dominate. More importantly, its alliance with England makes it useful.

Venice stays. It may end up taking over Tunis, although it might not.

Thoughts on Ethiopia, Liberia, Siam (Thailand), and independent states in the New World (if any)?

The Mughals have their capital in Delhi. They were closer to Afghanistan than they were to the French. Before the Napoleonic Wars, they were arguably the dominant force in India. Considering that they would have lost a few wars, they shouldn't be covered in between Britian and France...

Afghanistan for Russia is possible, although remember that it was hard for the British to maintain authority in the 1920's, I doubt that the Russians could fare better, but we'll see.

Persia might have been weak, but it had notable support from the UK [because of conflicting interests in Central Asia...], so Russia wouldn't spend too much time in Persian wars. It was more concerned about Mediterranean ports, as you said, but the Ottomans were a better target than Persia [because of the Black Sea and such], and the Ottomans were stronger than Persia.

It is noted for Denmark... :)

Prussia earned Silesia in the War of Austrian Succession (1740-1748...I think). The reason why the Seven Years War is soooo important for Prussia is not because it gained land, but because it beat France [Battle of Reuthen or something of that sort...France lost its military prestige in Europe after the Seven Years War, one of the reasons why France succombed to a economic depression, which they escalated by upsetting their populace and causing the French Revolution in part [it had much more to do with the fact that France lost Louisiana to the UK, and because of the American Revolution which caused an even bigger debt...]...ugh...

Venice wouldn't be powerful enough to take Tunis, although they were a necessary buffer state for France and Austria in Italy (almost like the Piedont was for France itself and what Sicily was for Spain). Of course, we could open that to debate [just like everything else...]

Liberia is a product of the USA...the first African republic...it doesn't even exist at this time.

Ethiopia is a considerably important, I'm surprised I forgot that one...

Siam would also be important, as much as the Mughals in India for the British.

Anything else?

Claiming influence in Northern Italy, as long as you leave out Venice, should be fine. You might get Serbia and Montenegro; you're unlikely to take Rumania or Bulgaria.

You'll be ruling a nation with many different ethnicities, all disgruntled and many willing to rebel at the slightest opportunity. Have fun.

On another note(I know im being greedy, but I would like the possiblity considered), I would like to have influence in northern Italy as before Napoleon defeated them(and since youre playing that napoleon didnt exist), the austrians had a controlling interest in mcuh of northern italy, could I have this as well? I would like to know your considerations on these as I would like to do a timeline similiar to what youve done for china.

In reference to the other requests about owning those smaller territories, I'd be more in favor of that, since Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, and like, since they were nationalistic products of the Revolutions of the 19th Century [notably the year 1844 or 1848...one of the two...].

Of course, at the time, they were territories of the Ottomans...so it's something you'd have to deal with the Ottomans.

Greece was much closer to Russia than it was to Austria, and it was likewise a product of the Revolutions of the 19th-century for the same reasons that Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, and the like...

Historically, Milan and Modena were powerhouses for the Austrians...I can give you that...

of course... the most important thing to remember is that there were more (important) territories in Italy and Germany. There was Bavaria, Prussia, [Austria too], Wurtemburg, the Palatinate, Hesse, Saxe-Coburg, Oddenburg, Hanover, Madgeburg (later assimilated into Prussia after some war with Austria...the six-weeks war I think...of course, by then, Prussia was unifying Germany...), and all the other German states. In Italy, there was Romagna, Padua, Naples, Taranto, and more importantly, Sardinia, and Sicily [and Rome]. That said, there were more states in Germany and Italy than there are in the Balkan today... Italy and Germany were products of the Empire of Charlemagne...the Balkans were the products of revolutions.

Please remember that...Not to mention that with the Illyrian Provinces, Austria might consider provinces on the same parts as Spain...although to a lesser degree...Prussia wouldn't start colonies because it wasn't as strong before the Seven Years War

Czar N. Romanov - You also hold the Austrian Netherlands (Belgium).

Everyone - All right, we'll downgrade Prussia to 'important.' It will help keep Britain interested in Continental affairs.
Sweden's still moderately important; it holds Swedish Pomerania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Pomerania) and contests Norway with Denmark-Norway.
About the only potential American nation to successfully rebel would be Haiti; however, the French would be able to commit troops there rather easily, and the Spanish could be more easily called in to help out.
Who, if anyone, gets the Sudan? Or, for that matter, Somalia?
The Seven Years' War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Years'_War)
The Revolutions of 1848 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848)

I chose China for an obvious reason...IT'S A CLEAN SLATE...

Europe is such a big mess of nationalism and such that constructing a history is difficult...instead of asking me, ask the people that you'll be claiming these thins from...

NOTE AUSTRIA, YOU ARE STILL THE HOLY ROMAN EMPEROR...NAPOLEON KILLED THAT...NAPOLEON DID NOT HAPPEN... :)

(that resolved, you've probably influence in Germany, which is perhaps more important, becacuse France has a greater in Italy, even while Austria owns territory there...the only reason that has kept France from exploiting it is that Spain holds a greater influence...but let's not forget the war of Spanish Succession either, which landed a Bourbon king on the throne...)

TALK ABOUT IT!!! :)

England's also somewhat clean; apart from Hannover and Minorca, we have nothing else in Europe. The rest of the world, on the other hand...

Czar N. Romanov - You also hold the Austrian Netherlands (Belgium).

Naktan - All right, we'll downgrade Prussia to 'important.' It will help keep Britain interested in Continental affairs.
Sweden's still moderately important; it holds Swedish Pomerania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Pomerania) and contests Norway with Denmark-Norway.
About the only potential American nation to successfully rebel would be Haiti; however, the French would be able to commit troops there rather easily, and the Spanish could be more easily called in to help out.
Who, if anyone, gets the Sudan? Or, for that matter, Somalia?

The Seven Years' War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Years'_War)


Forgot about Belgium...

Britain's traditional allies on the Continent were those in the Low Countries [the Netherlands and surrounding...] because the Low Countries were the one thing that France away from England proper...

Forgot about Sweden...

Didn't forget about Denmark, but didn't mention Norway and Sweden...

And I forget to add that Sweden contests Finland with Russia...so we'll have to resolve that...



And to add onto all of that...

Don't forget that up until post WWII that Europe was the seat of wars...it wasn't unusual to hear about a war every two years...especially now that the Seen Years War and the Napoleonic wars never happened...

make up some wars and get to negotiating with nations...

some of those nations that I said earlier, we can cut the list down [REASONABLY, PLEASE...don't want the Cold War to happen so quickly...] to fewer nations... Perhaps Russia does go to war with Persia and knocks them out... Perhaps Britain conquers the Mughals...

JUST BE CERTAIN YOU PUT IT IN YOUR HISTORY!!! OTHERWISE, IT DON'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!!

BTW, all this talking is distracting me from my duties as map maker...I'll be doing that for a while...I probably won't finish it tonight/today...but it's down to the bare continents (took forever to get the outline, now taking forever to clean the lines neatly)...i've got a good idea where nations are going to be...so keep at it :)


BRITAIN, have we resolved to resolve the McCartney Mission?

McCartney still goes, but he doesn't, in the end, matter, since the Shi Dynasty's free trade policies will end up keeping the Opium Wars from happening. It's what I proposed, anyhow.

Claiming influence in Northern Italy, as long as you leave out Venice, should be fine. You might get Serbia and Montenegro; you're unlikely to take Rumania or Bulgaria.

You'll be ruling a nation with many different ethnicities, all disgruntled and many willing to rebel at the slightest opportunity. Have fun.

I am aware of the difficulties of ruling austria due to ethnic divides, I just wanted to check on all that since you seemed to be takin napoleon out, thus to a small extent the effects of nationalism on the downfall of austria.

True. Without revolutionary change, there will only be evolutionary change.

However, we're forgetting about Karl Marx. Europe will industrialize quicker w/o the Napoleonic Wars knocking out everyone's economy so thoroughly; therefore, class pressures will mount. Have fun!

A note on the word REASONABLE:

Even though Europe was a powerhouse of wars, even they had reasons for going to war. When going to war, don't just say "I'm attacking so-and-so because I want their land..." That's extremely imperialistic, and you're more likely to get a negative response from the international community [like Russia historically did in the Crimean War...]. If you're going to war, make it legitimate, like Austria going to war with France because France was threatening Baden, and as the Holy Roman Emperor, he had to go defend the people of Baden, a electorate of the Empire...something like that...and then mutually decide how the war will end...quickly, efficiently, and nicely...imperialistic nations aren't going to be well-liked in the mid-20th century...

And a note on the McCartney mission, that happened in 1793...

Basically, the British and Chinese weren't very cooperative for cultural reasons. Lord McCartney held the impression of a European superpower, while the Chinese thought of themselves as an Asian superpower [which would obviously have to be superior to this barbaric nation of the West]. Their arguments were trivial. When Lord McCartney was a selecting a name to refer to his King George III, he chose "huang" which in one variant of Chinese means "Emperor"...of course, in Chinese, "huang" was reserved for the Chinese Emperor...the Chinese prefered that McCartney use "jung" which is a lesser title for a king...but they continually argued about that...

And also, the Chinese were excessively disdainful of the British technological feats, thinking of the solar system models as mere toys for little children...one Chinese minister reputedly remarked to Lord McCartney at one point, "Yes, we see these marvels of your arts of science; but does this barbaric nation know anything of the arts of governing?" to which the interpreter was slightly shocked and lessened the insult...McCartney was not impressed...

At first, the Chinese Emperor was receptive of the British, but after McCartney's continued annoyances, the Emperor eventually got a sour opinion of the British, thinking that if all British were as disrespectful as "this pig from the island nation of England, we don't need free and open trade with this island of pigs."

The Chinses were justified, but so were the British. After years of the Guangdong trades, the British, acting on Adam Smith's model of a free market economy, prompted the British government to open up China. To the Chinese, the Guangdong trade was a simplified way to take "tribute" from the Europeans, and they were especially disdainful of foreigners, especially the Dutch and the Portuguese, since they thought of the nations as a nation of merchants [merchants in China were evil in the Confucian tradition because they take things that were not their own and sell it for a profit]. So to prove it, they made the Dutch and Portuguese traders perform the kowtow. naturally, they thought of the UK as the same sort, and demanded the kowtow. McCartney refused to kowtow, because it was beneath the nature of his nation to bow to the ground before another man. Instead he would kneel on one knee and kiss the Emperor's hand in the European tradition. Well, the Chinese caved to that, because they thought that the British were even worse than the Portuguese and Dutch merchant nations, a nation that does not know respect and likewise kisses the hands of its superior nations [the Chinese refused to allow McCartney to even touch the Emperor...]

And the sort of stuff in that lilke...

Realizing that things might be a little different without the Seven Year War and the American Revolution, considering that France was the more powerful nation out in the Pacific anyway, the British might be more humble, as would the Chinese be, since France would have been the Britain out in the East at this time...

True. Without revolutionary change, there will only be evolutionary change.

However, we're forgetting about Karl Marx. Europe will industrialize quicker w/o the Napoleonic Wars knocking out everyone's economy so thoroughly; therefore, class pressures will mount. Have fun!

One of the side effects of the Napoleonic Wars was the Continental System. Without the economic and industrial resources of the Continent, Britain became more self-reliant and developed factories out of a need to combat the French system...

Without the Napoleonic Wars, industrialization would have occured much more slowly...class pressures develop less...this is tempting to say that the Seven Years War changed a lot of history...as did the Napoleonic Wars too...

On the other hand, the land enclosure movement was already creating a large, unemployed labor pool, and industrial technology was developing rapidly in England anyways. It's somewhat of an open question.

Not to mention that Karl Marx was a product of the revolts of the mid 1840's...while these had mostly to deal with nationalistic fervor, Marx equate the majority of the problem [in some sense correctly] to an increasing divide of the classes between the extreme poor, the extreme rich, and the bouregoisie...or so what i get from his book...

Of course, we could accelerate it too...we could have some novel mind in England or in Russia come up with socialism in 1809...if it seems reasonable...

As to the industrialization jig, that is true...factories did exist before the French Revolution and the Napoleonic wars...but as a result of England being so isolated from the Continent, able to advance its industry more independently of the Continent gave it a considerable advantage over its Continental friends. Perhaps without the Napoleonic Wars, industry would become the space race of its day, just as it did in the years pre-dating WWI...

But then, that there would have to be some bubble somewhere...and it seems to happen a lot faster than 1914 than otherwise assumed...maybe even earlier than Karl Marx himself... I wouldn't know what pops the bubble...global revolution (a far cry...), a world war (a grave possibility), or even a mixture of the two [as is what happened historically, Russia being the unfortunate example...] Industrial power creates a vacuum that everyone tries to fill, but it can't fit everyone...

Realizing that things might be a little different without the Seven Year War and the American Revolution, considering that France was the more powerful nation out in the Pacific anyway, the British might be more humble, as would the Chinese be, since France would have been the Britain out in the East at this time...

How do you wish to resolve this?

historically or even better: it never happened?

or even worse, a war breaks [please say no...]

I wouldn't mind taking a shot at Japan. I'm a bit confused on my territories though. Would I possess German possessions in the Pacfic? (Or has WW1 Not occured yet?) And wasn't Okinawa part of the Japanese empire from the 15th century? And this mess about the Opium war! If it wasn't for that Japan wouldn't have kept such a frantic pace to idustrialize.

Maybe give the Mughals a bit of luck against France, thus weakening the reputation of the French in Asia?

Britain is unlikely to act humble in Asia; more likely, the English will be more cautious, but still look for opportunities.

Okinowa (and Fukuoka) become British in an analogue to the Opium Wars fought between an isolationist Japan and an imperialistic Great Britain.

I wouldn't mind taking a shot at Japan. I'm a bit confused on my territories though. Would I possess German possessions in the Pacfic? (Or has WW1 Not occured yet?) And wasn't Okinawa part of the Japanese empire from the 15th century? And this mess about the Opium war! If it wasn't for that Japan wouldn't have kept such a frantic pace to idustrialize.

The Opium Wars never happened (or at least not yet and in that manner...)...

we're still resolving the history of Europe...at least we've stepped away from the Seven years war...

And France and Mughals...seems reasonable...if France accepts...

Britain...you still haven't clarified the McCartney issue totally...if Britain isn't likely to act humble, it is most likely that the thing would still happen historically, but there is still the issue that your country sent the mission...considering the circumstances, would Britain still send a mission to China or be more pre-occupied with the French in India?

Just think...once we get this out of the way, then we have to resolve just exactly how your country will treat my delegates during the War of Qing...as would every other nation...OH FOR JOY!!!

Just to imagine all of the hard work being put into this darned thing...

I just hope that RP is as awarding as the hardship...

With the emergence of a prussian state, Austria strongly considers an alliance of sometime in order to prevent events such as the war of austrian succession from happening. Furthermore Austria, as it seems to have done historically realizes the potential of nationalistic pressures on their empire.

Therefore we pursue a policy of stamping out nationalism whenever possible by disrupting meetings/demonstrations/book distribution to the greatest extent possible. Meanwhile we will introduce a sort of constitutional monarchy, allowing the various conquered peoples an official place to present grievances, of course the emperor retains the authority to close their sessions and ignore their requests, for the most part. Unofficially I work extensively to undermine the monetary power of various nobles within the empire.

With Poland acting as a buffer state between Austria and Russia, we remain only slightly concerned by the territorial and imperialistic ambitions of the tsars. Istead we look at France with suspicion due to their influence in Italy and desires for land in belgium. However, I attempt to avoid direct confrontation as France remains one of Europe's heavy hitters, considering a policy of compromise or even appeasement to prevent war (suppressing nationalism is draining too many resources to consider a major war).

However I do pursue expansionist policies in the Balkans, The first war I start is with montenegro over a terrorist attack(staged or real) on an austria official. I subsequently blame nationalism and continue to be beligerent towards any slavic nations in the area, on the pretense of their aiding nationalistic rebels within the Empire (this is not including Poland, since as stated before, I wish to avoid major conflicts).

However tensions in the Balkans may result in conflicts with the Turks(has any1 taken them yet?).

We still send the mission; we're concerned with France, but we're looking for opportunities. We aren't necessarily humble; we also aren't necessarily overconfident/extremely arrogant - thus making the Opium War even less likely.

We'll probably see the War of Qing as an opportunity to put a more pro-free trade emperor on the throne, and will hopefully have a more competent diplomat available.

Industrialization will certainly be sped up in Europe. As for when the bubble bursts: 1820s to 1830s, my guess. Someone would have come up with Socialism or something like it, perhaps even the Utilitarians Bentham and Mill. How far a stretch is it from "The greatest good for the greatest number" to socialism/communism, anyways?

With the emergence of a prussian state, Austria strongly considers an alliance of sometime in order to prevent events such as the war of austrian succession from happening. Furthermore Austria, as it seems to have done historically realizes the potential of nationalistic pressures on their empire.

Therefore we pursue a policy of stamping out nationalism whenever possible by disrupting meetings/demonstrations/book distribution to the greatest extent possible. Meanwhile we will introduce a sort of constitutional monarchy, allowing the various conquered peoples an official place to present grievances, of course the emperor retains the authority to close their sessions and ignore their requests, for the most part. Unofficially I work extensively to undermine the monetary power of various nobles within the empire.

With Poland acting as a buffer state between Austria and Russia, we remain only slightly concerned by the territorial and imperialistic ambitions of the tsars. Istead we look at France with suspicion due to their influence in Italy and desires for land in belgium. However, I attempt to avoid direct confrontation as France remains one of Europe's heavy hitters, considering a policy of compromise or even appeasement to prevent war (suppressing nationalism is draining too many resources to consider a major war).

However I do pursue expansionist policies in the Balkans, The first war I start is with montenegro over a terrorist attack(staged or real) on an austria official. I subsequently blame nationalism and continue to be beligerent towards any slavic nations in the area, on the pretense of their aiding nationalistic rebels within the Empire (this is not including Poland, since as stated before, I wish to avoid major conflicts).

However tensions in the Balkans may result in conflicts with the Turks(has any1 taken them yet?).

Prussia is not a problem...they just took Silesia and perhaps in some sort of history, you'll take it back. Your biggest problems are with France, Poland, the Ottomans, and possibly the Russians...[at least you're on that track...]

Even though "stamping" out nationalistic fervor is a likely cause of terrorist movements, terrorism wasn't really a concept until the anarchist revolts of the later 1800's...of course, they were in response to Marx's ideals, taking it to an even greater extreme...

Expansion will of course lead to conflicts with the Ottomans [and most likely the Russians later...lots of Slavs there...lots of people to persecute...of course, one only needs to persecute if they're acting out against you...]. I don't know if we have an Ottoman player, but the Balkans are something that you'd have to resolve with the Ottomans only...

you've got a good background... :)

If only you were Russia :)

SOOOO much more appropriate... :)

We still send the mission; we're concerned with France, but we're looking for opportunities. We aren't necessarily humble; we also aren't necessarily overconfident/extremely arrogant - thus making the Opium War even less likely.

We'll probably see the War of Qing as an opportunity to put a more pro-free trade emperor on the throne, and will hopefully have a more competent diplomat available.

Industrialization will certainly be sped up in Europe. As for when the bubble bursts: 1820s to 1830s, my guess. Someone would have come up with Socialism or something like it, perhaps even the Utilitarians Bentham and Mill. How far a stretch is it from "The greatest good for the greatest number" to socialism/communism, anyways?

Well, if the British aren't that humble, the McCartney mission proceeds as historically...

now with a new Emperor in power, HuangShuo [note...the huang here does not mean emperor...it means golden] is more reluctant to deal with the British, as his opinion might be better than his predecessors, but it is still less amiable than it could be... he looks at France as a possible counter balance against the British, but still, he sends out his emissaries in the year 1823... how do the respective nations respond?

NOTE ON THE MAP...

I'm done cleaning it...it shouldn't take long to draw lines, if there were lines to draw...

I'm still not seeing any serious wars going on...[of course, there aren't many people to make em with....]

I mean, for all that I know, Austria and Russia could cooperatively conquer Poland if they wanted to, since historically, they did it to prevent either party from being too powerful in the Balkans...

France and UK could go to war over one of their Indian colonies or their American colonies...

wars were common...just don't go out saying "I WANT LAND! GIMME LAND!" have an excuse to say that...like the Russian czar, noting all of the atoricities by the Ottoman sultan against the Slavs, rises against the Ottomans and has a war...in the process, Russia somehow gets paid in land and the Slavs get more freedom from the Ottomans... [this all assuming that there's a nationalistic fervor in the Balkans to deal with...]...

have fun with it...it's one of the few times that a war will be less hectic than the diplomacy :)

Austria does not have a border with Montenegro, that country is nearly surrounded by the Ottoman Empire.

I was looking at maps of the Mughal Empire and it looks to me that most of that Empire was in central and northern India, where Britain was expanding. I don't see that France was very involved with the Mughals, not that I mind too much losing something to them

yes, France has influence in northern Italy and has had tensions with the Astrians

Britain, as I said, is seeking opportunities. We see the new emperor as a pro-free trade emperor, and thus support him. France will probably retain a mercantilist system for a while, so it's possible that Britain will gain an edge in trade in China from that.

Austria does not have a border with Montenegro, that country is nearly surrounded by the Ottoman Empire.

I was looking at maps of the Mughal Empire and it looks to me that most of that Empire was in central and northern India, where Britain was expanding. I don't see that France was very involved with the Mughals, not that I mind too much losing something to them

yes, France has influence in northern Italy and has had tensions with the Astrians

The maps I have clearly show a border with montenegro, its for 1911, perhaps you could give me some info as to why you think I dont have a border with them?

This map I'm generating...as I realize, it bares absolutely no rivers[i.e. Nile River]...more importantly, no lakes [i.e. Great Lakes] is this of particular importance to people in general, or can we survive a map of the world without such features? [I'm asking in the event that people don't care...chances are, my laziness is getting to me...]

And is there anything that the mission concludes, Britain? I'm probably being anal as it stands, but i'd like to know what we've done. So, we've gotten free trade standards set up. The Shi Dynasty would like some military support [not intervention...more like personnel advisors, equipment, training, and such...HuangShuo's association with westerners gave him a great impression on the matters of how to conduct his country with the technological advances there...].

The same question goes to France, Russia, Austria, and Spain... The Shi Dynasty wants recognition, trade, and military support [i.e. equipment, advisors, as stated above...]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Titicus
Austria does not have a border with Montenegro, that country is nearly surrounded by the Ottoman Empire.

I was looking at maps of the Mughal Empire and it looks to me that most of that Empire was in central and northern India, where Britain was expanding. I don't see that France was very involved with the Mughals, not that I mind too much losing something to them

yes, France has influence in northern Italy and has had tensions with the Astrians

The maps I have clearly show a border with montenegro, its for 1911, perhaps you could give me some info as to why you think I dont have a border with them?

Bearing in mind that montenegro barely exists in 1911, remember that we're producing a history from 1750 on to 1930...at that time, Montenegro was bascially a vassalage to the Ottomans...but times change [and so would this darned issue with Turkey if we had someone in his place...]

Bearing also in mind that France historically has had tensions with its German neighbors across the Rhine...

And I'd like to hear from Spain, if he's here...

what do you have, and what is your general policy?

This map I'm generating...as I realize, it bares absolutely no rivers[i.e. Nile River]...more importantly, no lakes [i.e. Great Lakes] is this of particular importance to people in general, or can we survive a map of the world without such features? [I'm asking in the event that people don't care...chances are, my laziness is getting to me...]

And is there anything that the mission concludes, Britain? I'm probably being anal as it stands, but i'd like to know what we've done. So, we've gotten free trade standards set up. The Shi Dynasty would like some military support [not intervention...more like personnel advisors, equipment, training, and such...HuangShuo's association with westerners gave him a great impression on the matters of how to conduct his country with the technological advances there...].

The same question goes to France, Russia, Austria, and Spain... The Shi Dynasty wants recognition, trade, and military support [i.e. equipment, advisors, as stated above...]



Bearing in mind that montenegro barely exists in 1911, remember that we're producing a history from 1750 on to 1930...at that time, Montenegro was bascially a vassalage to the Ottomans...but times change [and so would this darned issue with Turkey if we had someone in his place...]

Bearing also in mind that France historically has had tensions with its German neighbors across the Rhine...

And I'd like to hear from Spain, if he's here...

what do you have, and what is your general policy?

what would you like to hear from me? about traid/other stuff with China? or just about Spain in general or allies/enemies. or my history?

what would you like to hear from me? about traid/other stuff with China? or just about Spain in general or allies/enemies. or my history?

quite honestly everything...you've been pretty silent...

Spain's colonies, their policy in the general time that we'e talking about [i'm personally up to 1825...]

And about HuangShuo's emissary to Spain in 1823...

He asks for recognition as the legitimate China, offers trade settlements [not towns, agreements...], and requests some military assistance via equipment supply, military advisors, and tacit support of this regime...

and the like...make demands, accept them whole-heartedly, ask to become a vassal of China [j/k]...play with it...

:)

and talk about Spain in general, where it's going...

Naktan: England will probably instead commit the Royal Navy - which has probably showed off in the innumerable wars with France.

Nebarri_Prime: You might want to put up a new description for the first post, something explaining that this is set in 1930 in a world that never had the Seven Years' War.
Remember that I retain Minorca.
England would have been interested in purchasing Florida innumerable times. Thoughts on whether this would happen, if ever? Perhaps Col. Andrew Jackson gets involved...

The Shi does not need a navy yet...remember, the Chinese are a land-based Empire...

HuangShuo requests artillery, muskets, and the like...our cavalry is pretty fine, but again, officers to drill and discipline the troops?

This is what he looks for...

[hint to the other nations...]

I was thinking in the initial campaign against the Dowager Empress; shelling port towns worked well in the Opium War, so why not in a civil war?

In terms of military aid, maybe a few drill sergeants to train the infantry.

Forgot to mention that England claims West Virginia, Tennessee, and Kentucky.

quite honestly everything...you've been pretty silent...

Spain's colonies, their policy in the general time that we'e talking about [i'm personally up to 1825...]

And about HuangShuo's emissary to Spain in 1823...

He asks for recognition as the legitimate China, offers trade settlements [not towns, agreements...], and requests some military assistance via equipment supply, military advisors, and tacit support of this regime...

and the like...make demands, accept them whole-heartedly, ask to become a vassal of China [j/k]...play with it...

:)

and talk about Spain in general, where it's going...

you think i have been silent here you should see me in RL....

as i see it Spain would recognize his claim, and aid militarily any way possible. Spain is not a big enough power in Asia to make demands there(as i see it) so it would all be done to give Spain a profit and get on China's good side...as for how clonies are run. i will have Spain keep everything the same, save for the colonies will have a little more self government then in RL to make them more loyal. the government of Spain will be what is should be autocratic, but a little more loose then in RL...i assume either France or Austria (possibly both?)will be allies of Spain.

sorry if this post doesn't make much sense or something i'm really tired right now...

And the real reason why I've come back is because I've finished cleaning the map...

Before I get on to drawing country lines, I need to know three things...

ONE...WHAT COLOR WOULD YOUR NATION LIKE TO BE?

[I.E. Shi is purple...

Try to make the colors appropriate to the national colors...this might be a conflict between the British and the Turks, who both have red as a national color...France is most likely blue, Russian green, Austria white, Spain yellow, and like...but just choose a color...and first come first serve...if second serve, choose a different variation of the color or I will choose for you...

TWO...I still haven't gotten a consensus on drawing the rivers and the lakes...I'm ammusing not, since it hasn't caught anyone's attention yet...

THREE...WARS, DIPLOMACY, THE LIKE...makes stories about your country, and don't forget about neighbors...Britain's policy with Portugal for example...or the Venetians with the Ottomans [like it matters, but for all intents and purposes, these people hate the necks off each other...]

I STILL NEED CLEAR CAPITAL CHOICES>>>

I've gotten London and Madrid so far...

Have fun with them :)

you think i have been silent here you should see me in RL....

as i see it Spain would recognize his claim, and aid militarily any way possible. Spain is not a big enough power in Asia to make demands there(as i see it) so it would all be done to give Spain a profit and get on China's good side...as for how clonies are run. i will have Spain keep everything the same, save for the colonies will have a little more self government then in RL to make them more loyal. the government of Spain will be what is should be autocratic, but a little more loose then in RL...i assume either France or Austria (possibly both?)will be allies of Spain.

sorry if this post doesn't make much sense or something i'm really tired right now...

this is most desirable to Shi, and he appreciates it...don't forget you have colonies in the Philippines...consolidate your colonies :) let me know what you have [even though I probably know all of them anyway...]

i would like the my land to be Blue

The Shi does not need a navy yet...remember, the Chinese are a land-based Empire...

HuangShuo requests artillery, muskets, and the like...our cavalry is pretty fine, but again, officers to drill and discipline the troops?

This is what he looks for...

[hint to the other nations...]

Austria is willing to accept a deal in these regards, in exchange for sometype of monetary reward(as I have no intensions of extensive trade/empire in the far east). I would be willing to supply some officers to the chinese to train them, and even some number of weapons(as many as I can ship and they will buy).

this is most desirable to Shi, and he appreciates it...don't forget you have colonies in the Philippines...consolidate your colonies :) let me know what you have [even though I probably know all of them anyway...]

this is a list i made. not sure if some of them would not be my colonies because of alt history, and i'm sure i have missed some smaller ones. anyway...

Rio de oro(possibly), Rio muni, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Spanish Haiti(Dominican Republic), Spanish Florida, Philippines, New Spain(Mexico, Central America, California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas, ), New Granada(Ecuador, Panama, Venezuela), Peru(Peru and Chile), Rio de la plata(Argentina, Bolivia, Paraguay and Uruguay) and Sicily if i may.

Austria is willing to accept a deal in these regards, in exchange for sometype of monetary reward(as I have no intensions of extensive trade/empire in the far east). I would be willing to supply some officers to the chinese to train them, and even some number of weapons(as many as I can ship and they will buy).

As our economy is rather imploded, we will buy as much, but granted that it will not suffice...still HuangShuo is pleased with Austria's offers and considers the Austrians friendly... [exact numbers won't be important in this part of history; just the fact is enough :)]

And Spain...you may have Sicily :)

Red. Rule, Brittanica!

Lakes are nice and pretty, but unnecessary. Same with rivers.

Add in Arkansas, Alabama, and Mississippi and remove Wyoming and Colorado from my claims, please.

Britain and Portugal are loose rivals, mainly in Africa. Britain has at times allied with Portugal and has at times allied against Portugal, but always with regards to Britain's best interests.

Britain is ambivalent about Venice, but sees it as a nice buffer state. Britain likes buffer states; they prevent wars, which tend to harm the British economy.

Britain is ambivalent about the Turks. We support them when it hurts Russia, or, especially, France.

Anglo-Spanish relations are often poor, due to England's rivalry with France.

And Spain...you may have Sicily :)

I'm a little surprised that Spain wants to be blue, but that's fine... :)

And the real reason why I've come back is because I've finished cleaning the map...

Before I get on to drawing country lines, I need to know three things...

ONE...WHAT COLOR WOULD YOUR NATION LIKE TO BE?

[I.E. Shi is purple...

Try to make the colors appropriate to the national colors...this might be a conflict between the British and the Turks, who both have red as a national color...France is most likely blue, Russian green, Austria white, Spain yellow, and like...but just choose a color...and first come first serve...if second serve, choose a different variation of the color or I will choose for you...

TWO...I still haven't gotten a consensus on drawing the rivers and the lakes...I'm ammusing not, since it hasn't caught anyone's attention yet...

THREE...WARS, DIPLOMACY, THE LIKE...makes stories about your country, and don't forget about neighbors...Britain's policy with Portugal for example...or the Venetians with the Ottomans [like it matters, but for all intents and purposes, these people hate the necks off each other...]

I STILL NEED CLEAR CAPITAL CHOICES>>>

I've gotten London and Madrid so far...

Have fun with them :)

I'll settle for orange or red. as for a capital I would make mine vienna. As far as water goes, I would say that the great lakes are important, but that most rivers could probably be left out.

Red. Rule, Brittanica!

Lakes are nice and pretty, but unnecessary. Same with rivers.

Add in Arkansas, Alabama, and Mississippi and remove Wyoming and Colorado from my claims, please.

Britain and Portugal are loose rivals, mainly in Africa. Britain has at times allied with Portugal and has at times allied against Portugal, but always with regards to Britain's best interests.

Britain is ambivalent about Venice, but sees it as a nice buffer state. Britain likes buffer states; they prevent wars, which tend to harm the British economy.

Britain is ambivalent about the Turks. We support them when it hurts Russia, or, especially, France.

Anglo-Spanish relations are often poor, due to England's rivalry with France.

I might ask how Britain claims territories that explicitly west of the Mississippi River, which forms a sort of border between France and Britain? Unless France neglected to claim them?

Shoot; remove Arkansas from the claims list. I coulda sworn it was east of the Mississippi...

While we're at it, any way you could add Papua New Guinea to my claims list?

I'll settle for orange or red. as for a capital I would make mine vienna. As far as water goes, I would say that the great lakes are important, but that most rivers could probably be left out.

Thank you!

I've added the Great Lakes :)

Shoot; remove Arkansas from the claims list. I coulda sworn it was east of the Mississippi...

While we're at it, any way you could add Papua New Guinea to my claims list?

Will do :)

you won't believe how much red i see :eek:

Question...minorca doesn't happen to refer to Isla minorca of the Baleric Islands?

FYI

I will be off in about fifteen minutes...keep posting..i'll be on sometime tomorrow...

hopefully this isn't all hectic and such...

Minorca = Isla Minorca de las Islas Balericas

Minorca = Isla Minorca de las Islas Balericas

I don't know how Britain would rip this from Spain...

I don't know how Britain would rip this from Spain...

Captured by the British navy in 1708 during the War of the Spanish Succession, Minorca became a British possession...

Might I also add that the Rof Congo is French...DPR Congo is Belgian?

Last post for today }O

Nighty night all :)

Keep posting stuff...someone will have the sense to continue on!!!

Make more history...I'vev only gotten to 1825... ;)

Captured by the British navy in 1708 during the War of the Spanish Succession, Minorca became a British possession...

you know your history :)

you know your history :)

most of the time

and i'm off for now. be back in 7 hours if not then in about 12

I am pretty sure that Britain is asking for too much. Just because Spanish Florida and the Mississippi region are to the east of the Mississippi doesn't make them British or destined to be British by "manifest destiny" or anything.

Most of Alabama, Mississippi, Kentucky, Tennessee, Ohio are mine.

The French crown will not be conducting arms deals with China as it does not believe it is proper to become involved in the political affairs of that region. France will still be up for trade on an even basis, though.

capital: Paris

history: coming

I rather thought that I would be blue, as France, but since that is taken, I will be white.

French claims in North America by state: Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky, Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, Wyoming, South Dakota

You might want to scratch Berlin, pending the approval of a Prussia; it's their capital, after all. Hungary's a bit far for Russia, and Austria will certainly need to approve that level of a change in their fortunes. Belarus, and much of Iran, along with the nations on the Caspian, on the other hand...
You can claim Alaska, Yukon, BC, Washington, and possibly Oregon; I left them all open to you, due to the French making expansion in Northwest Canada difficult for England. You'll have to talk to Spain about Oregon, however.
Okay: Ukriane, Alaska, Washington, Hungary, Poland, Estonia, Lativia, Lithunia, Pakistan, and Persia.

I am pretty sure that Britain is asking for too much. Just because Spanish Florida and the Mississippi region are to the east of the Mississippi doesn't make them British or destined to be British by "manifest destiny" or anything.

Most of Alabama, Mississippi, Kentucky, Tennessee, Ohio are mine.

The French crown will not be conducting arms deals with China as it does not believe it is proper to become involved in the political affairs of that region. France will still be up for trade on an even basis, though.

capital: Paris

history: coming

I rather thought that I would be blue, as France, but since that is taken, I will be white.

French claims in North America by state: Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky, Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, Wyoming, South Dakota

I can make you blue, just a different shade... I leave that open...



Spain claims Wyoming, UK claims Alabama, Mississippi, Ohio [the state], Kentucky, and Tennessee...

I can work it out...we just to verify the current dealers...


Okay: Ukriane, Alaska, Washington, Hungary, Poland, Estonia, Lativia, and Lithunia.

I can do everything except for Poland and Hungary [unless there is some war that wipes Poland out as it did historically and Austria itself consents to the territory grab...]

Britain, I got all your territories...

Russia...an added note...I can give Persia and Pakistan...

As of the current moment, they're owned by Persia [heh], Afghanistan, and the Mughal Empire...if you wish to erradicate any of these, provide me of how it went, why it went, and I'll give it [make it legit, please...]

As an added note, since no one claims them, China claims the Marianas Islands and Sakhalin Island...

speaking of which, what color do you want to be Russia?

[if red, choose a shade]

[if blue, also choose a shade]

[if orange, also choose a shade]

[if anything else, choose freely]

[note, black is not an option...]

Okay: Ukriane, Alaska, Washington, Hungary, Poland, Estonia, Lativia, Lithunia, Pakistan, and Persia.

Frankly, I'd never give hungary away, and I'd prefer to maintain an independent poland between us. However if you come up with some reason for a war with them, I would participate in it, for S. poland, as per the various historical partitions.

Frankly, I'd never give hungary away, and I'd prefer to maintain an independent poland between us. However if you come up with some reason for a war with them, I would participate in it, for S. poland, as per the various historical partitions.

While you're still here, any Germans states that you didn't like and decided to assimilate? or any war between you and france and france got some? or anything of that sort?

[there are a lot of German states in the HRE...please get rid of some of them nicely...meaning some but not all or none of them... :)]

While you're still here, any Germans states that you didn't like and decided to assimilate? or any war between you and france and france got some? or anything of that sort?

[there are a lot of German states in the HRE...please get rid of some of them nicely...meaning some but not all or none of them... :)]

My ambitions would be to take over bavaria(I see bavaria as a large obstacle towards my aim in gaining germanic lands) and then for taking lands in wurtemburg, salzburg, baden, the thuringian states hesse and saxony along with any of the tiny states between them that arnt worth mentioning. This would probably result in war with prussia... maybe only gaining the s. portion of saxony, up to dresden, while prussia occupies the n. half including leipsic.
Concerning france I would try to avoid war unless they push it. So far I dont think hes tried to lay claim to any of my lands, including Belgium/austrian netherlands(tensions with france would probably be high, especially during my attempt to grab german lands, however I wont go to war unless they start it).

Also, maybe I should clarify my position on nationalism. I never try to suppress religion/culture within the empire, and try to take a benevolent stance towards varying ideas etc., however in the event of meetings and literature supporting revolution I do my best to suppress the spread of such ideas, taking any necessary steps to do so.

Also, I would probably go to war with the ottomans later on, ~1900-1930, due to tensions in the balkans.

My ambitions would be to take over bavaria(I see bavaria as a large obstacle towards my aim in gaining germanic lands) and then for taking lands in wurtemburg, salzburg, baden, the thuringian states hesse and saxony along with any of the tiny states between them that arnt worth mentioning. This would probably result in war with prussia... maybe only gaining the s. portion of saxony, up to dresden, while prussia occupies the n. half including leipsic.
Concerning france I would try to avoid war unless they push it. So far I dont think hes tried to lay claim to any of my lands, including Belgium/austrian netherlands(tensions with france would probably be high, especially during my attempt to grab german lands, however I wont go to war unless they start it).

Also, maybe I should clarify my position on nationalism. I never try to suppress religion/culture within the empire, and try to take a benevolent stance towards varying ideas etc., however in the event of meetings and literature supporting revolution I do my best to suppress the spread of such ideas, taking any necessary steps to do so.

Also, I would probably go to war with the ottomans later on, ~1900-1930, due to tensions in the balkans.

While I don't oppose any of it [it being what you've declared]:

traditionally, Bavaria was a notable ally of the Austrian Emperor, among the last bastions of Catholicism in the HRE...Salzburg is part of Austria already, I can't give you what I already have given...baden and hesse are awfully close to France [Baden espcially...], and it might be good to know that hesse traditionally has good relations with the UK [under the house of Hanover]...thuringen and Saxony are fine aims, and I'll make note of the changes immediately... While a later war with Turkey is quite reasonable, Austria might not be so reluctant to go to war with Turkey directly, rather in an uneasy alliance with Russia to seize concessions in the Balkans - not because they like Russia or Russia is better than Austria, but simply because it goes better with the Slavic people is your nation shows some support to them in the alliance [it historically doesn't last for long...]; just something to think about, not to mention that Russia will more likely be more headstrong into seizing the Balkans for itself...

[thank you for this synopsis!!! I won't immediately change the others, pending the relations between France and the UK in Germany...Bavaria, I'll have to ask again if you really want to destroy your only real ally in the HRE...(true, they sided with the French in the Napoleonic Wars, but that was because Napoleon seemed a better candidate than Emperor Franz I...and they did remain faithful friends of Austria up to the Six Weeks Year, in which Austria lost all of its rightful claims to the German Confederation...)]

With regards to Africa: Belgium may not exist, thus the DRC is open; further, African colonization, occuring after the Seven Years' War, is mostly open. Since England no longer holds Somaliland, Egypt, or the Sudan (due to a strong Ottoman Empire), I figured that a claim to the Republic of the Congo would be reasonable.

North America - British claims to KY, TN, and OH are due to population pressure in the region being greater on our side (New France drew less immigrants than the Americas, and Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Pennsylvania, and even Connecticut held claims in at least one of those three states); we never claimed Florida, but rather asked to buy it from Spain. Speaking of which...
We hereby withdraw our claims in Mississippi and Alabama, given that France or Spain would get there first. Spain would probably end up with Alabama, and France with Mississippi.

While I don't oppose any of it [it being what you've declared]:

traditionally, Bavaria was a notable ally of the Austrian Emperor, among the last bastions of Catholicism in the HRE...Salzburg is part of Austria already, I can't give you what I already have given...baden and hesse are awfully close to France [Baden espcially...], and it might be good to know that hesse traditionally has good relations with the UK [under the house of Hanover]...thuringen and Saxony are fine aims, and I'll make note of the changes immediately... While a later war with Turkey is quite reasonable, Austria might not be so reluctant to go to war with Turkey directly, rather in an uneasy alliance with Russia to seize concessions in the Balkans - not because they like Russia or Russia is better than Austria, but simply because it goes better with the Slavic people is your nation shows some support to them in the alliance [it historically doesn't last for long...]; just something to think about, not to mention that Russia will more likely be more headstrong into seizing the Balkans for itself...

[thank you for this synopsis!!! I won't immediately change the others, pending the relations between France and the UK in Germany...Bavaria, I'll have to ask again if you really want to destroy your only real ally in the HRE...(true, they sided with the French in the Napoleonic Wars, but that was because Napoleon seemed a better candidate than Emperor Franz I...and they did remain faithful friends of Austria up to the Six Weeks Year, in which Austria lost all of its rightful claims to the German Confederation...)]

I hadnt realized that bavaria was a supporter of austria. In that case I would work together with them to obtain the previously mentioned german states, I pourposefully chose baden because it was near france, and would bring the empire closer to the netherlands.

To england's concerns I would make a point that I'm trying to frustrate france's ambitions beyond the rhine, since we have a mutual desire to retard the growth of both russia and france, that we could make and agreement to intervene should france cross the rhine, that we would both intervene, in exchange for that I would leave an independent hessian state.

With regards to Africa: Belgium may not exist, thus the DRC is open; further, African colonization, occuring after the Seven Years' War, is mostly open. Since England no longer holds Somaliland, Egypt, or the Sudan (due to a strong Ottoman Empire), I figured that a claim to the Republic of the Congo would be reasonable.

North America - British claims to KY, TN, and OH are due to population pressure in the region being greater on our side (New France drew less immigrants than the Americas, and Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Pennsylvania, and even Connecticut held claims in at least one of those three states); we never claimed Florida, but rather asked to buy it from Spain. Speaking of which...
We hereby withdraw our claims in Mississippi and Alabama, given that France or Spain would get there first. Spain would probably end up with Alabama, and France with Mississippi.

I will note the changes, but I must also note some other things...

You claimed the Ro Congo, which is historically French...ironically, the French claimed DR Congo...I am utterly confused, but I will allow it on the basis that neither claim actually does infringe on the other's claim...although honestly...it works better if France get RO Congo and Britain get DR Congo...

I hadnt realized that bavaria was a supporter of austria. In that case I would work together with them to obtain the previously mentioned german states, I pourposefully chose baden because it was near france, and would bring the empire closer to the netherlands.

To england's concerns I would make a point that I'm trying to frustrate france's ambitions beyond the rhine, since we have a mutual desire to retard the growth of both russia and france, that we could make and agreement to intervene should france cross the rhine, that we would both intervene, in exchange for that I would leave an independent hessian state.

I will assimilate Baden into Austria...noting that France is probably going to be more uneasy though...

I am thinking about posting the map soon, and I am certain that it will some furor about misclaims, but in showing, I hope to explain it period...I wish we had more nations, considering that there are a lot of open spaces in Africa [Somaliland, Tanzania [German], Numibia [Spain, you haven't this one yet, and its yours], and the Sudan [which I assume is likely to go to the Ottomans...]

I will assimilate Baden into Austria...noting that France is probably going to be more uneasy though...


Just as a note to get all of you on the same page, here's the list of German states in the HRE...

Bavaria, Prussia, Pommerania [to Sweden], Hanover [to UK], Hesse, Munster, Cologne, the Palatinate, Mecklemburg, Holstien, Wurzburg, Lundburg, Anhalt, Galacia [to Poland], and Austria [minus Hungary, Illyria, and Carpathia].

All of the states in Italy:

Venice, Sardinia and Piedmont, Genoa, Modena, Florence, Padua, Romagna, Naples, Taranto [to Spain], and Sicily [to Spain]. (Mantua and Milan are part of Austria; and Venice owns Crete - one of their last possessions dating to the Crusades :P).

My last note for the moment....

NO ONE DARE TOUCH SWITZERLAND!!!

I don't think France can allow that. Any Austrian moves on Baden, Wurtemberg, Hohenzollern, Rhineland-Palatinate, Saarland, or even Hesse would probably incur French anger and would probably see a French-Prussian alliance.

Prussia defeated Austria in 1748, so we can't expect them to just roll over -they would be a major player in Germany if not the superpower of the post-Napoleonic wars and would have something to say in Saxony especially.

And I don't think Austria should make any moves into the Balkans until we have an Ottoman player who would agree on that.

I must have mixed up the congo's, give me what is properly mine. And what about the German colonies, what do we do with them? Maybe Britain shpuld take the German colonies, Namibia, and Tanzania while I took both Congo's

My last note for the moment....

NO ONE DARE TOUCH SWITZERLAND!!!

Damn, there go all MY plans! (j/k)

I'll take Tanzania and Namibia; you can have the Congos. How did I forget about those two anyhow? Speaking of which, we claim Togo; France should get Benin (an RL claim), along with much of West Africa.

People who aren't in this yet: Why not join?

I don't think France can allow that. Any Austrian moves on Baden, Wurtemberg, Hohenzollern, or Hesse would incur French anger and would probably see a French-Prussian alliance.

Prussia defeated Austria in 1748, so we can't expect them to just roll over -they would be a major player in Germany if not the superpower of the post-Napoleonic wars and would have something to say in Saxony especially.

And I don't think Austria should make any moves into the Balkans until we have an Ottoman player who would agree on that.

I must have mixed up the congo's, give me what is properly mine. And what about the German colonies, what do we do with them?

Forget about my last comment...this will be the last comment for the moment...

There is a legitimate statement here in France's refusal to accept this...will Austria play to the French? or will Austria disregard it and let a war come out between France and Prussia [both the same powers that defeated Austria in 1748...]? or will we watch and see the two rock,paper,scissor the whole deal? there's only one way to find out... [thank you France for the update...makes the pre-history interesting :)]

I will fix congo if UK agrees to the switch...

The German colonies are open...I have intuitively given Portugal its colonies, and I'm ready to give Spain its Numibian colony [pending his acceptance...I should just do it...] and I have four ripe colonies open to fight over:

Camerun [between Congo and Nigeria; surrounded by French territories...]
German East Africa [Tanzania, between Kenya and Mozambique]
Somalia [between Ethiopia, Djibouti and Kenya...]
and Sudan [between Egypt, French Central Africa, and Ethiopia]

I don't think France can allow that. Any Austrian moves on Baden, Wurtemberg, Hohenzollern, or Hesse would incur French anger and would probably see a French-Prussian alliance.

Prussia defeated Austria in 1748, so we can't expect them to just roll over -they would be a major player in Germany if not the superpower of the post-Napoleonic wars and would have something to say in Saxony especially.

And I don't think Austria should make any moves into the Balkans until we have an Ottoman player who would agree on that.

I must have mixed up the congo's, give me what is properly mine. And what about the German colonies, what do we do with them?

In my post about saxony I said that prussia would probably fight me over that 1. as to france getting involved, I would appreciate it if the franks would keep on their side of the rhine, you have no business in the affairs of alemanic peoples. I would be willing to leave baden alone however wurtemburg clearly belongs within the austrian realm and I refuse to give up claims upon it.

As to the balkans I am waiting to resolve them once we get some1 for the turks, for now Ive only stated my aims for them.

I'll take Tanzania and Namibia; you can have the Congos. How did I forget about those two anyhow? Speaking of which, we claim Togo; France should get Benin (an RL claim), along with much of West Africa.

People who aren't in this yet: Why not join?

DAmn...stop this...

both bongos?

and i've gotten those on the map...

and good point!!!

We need OTTOMAN!!! PORTUGAL!!! THE NETHERLANDS!!! MAYBE EVEN POLAND!!!

In my post about saxony I said that prussia would probably fight me over that 1. as to france getting involved, I would appreciate it if the franks would keep on their side of the rhine, you have no business in the affairs of alemanic peoples. I would be willing to leave baden alone however wurtemburg clearly belongs within the austrian realm and I refuse to give up claims upon it.

As to the balkans I am waiting to resolve them once we get some1 for the turks, for now Ive only stated my aims for them.

:eek:
:eek:
:eek:

I love this stuff !

Please note...I am leaving now...

:eek:
:eek:
:eek:

If it is not to late to join in I think I would like to play either as the Iroquois Nation or Siam (What is now modern day Thailand)

Mare Sarenus - It's nowhere near too late; welcome. Would you rather be Thailand, or would you prefer the Ottoman Empire, Portugal, Holland, or Poland?

Those nations are German, not Austrian, and they belong to themselves (independent). They serve as a buffer and France will see to it that they remain like that, or else Austria faces consequences

So, the Iroquis didn't make in this history? I also thought that they would have been much better off with out the American Revolutionary war. Anywho.

Mare Sarenus - It's nowhere near too late; welcome. Would you rather be Thailand, or would you prefer the Ottoman Empire, Portugal, Holland, or Poland?

I would prefer to be Thailand, because I have actually lived there. I haven't been to the other countries, so I would like to RP Thailand.

Those nations are German, not Austrian, and they belong to themselves (independent). They serve as a buffer and France will see to it that they remain like that, or else Austria faces consequences

I continue with my plans with no regard for french demands.

Forget about my last comment...this will be the last comment for the moment...

There is a legitimate statement here in France's refusal to accept this...will Austria play to the French? or will Austria disregard it and let a war come out between France and Prussia [both the same powers that defeated Austria in 1748...]? or will we watch and see the two rock,paper,scissor the whole deal? there's only one way to find out... [thank you France for the update...makes the pre-history interesting :)]

I will fix congo if UK agrees to the switch...

The German colonies are open...I have intuitively given Portugal its colonies, and I'm ready to give Spain its Numibian colony [pending his acceptance...I should just do it...] and I have four ripe colonies open to fight over:

Camerun [between Congo and Nigeria; surrounded by French territories...]
German East Africa [Tanzania, between Kenya and Mozambique]
Somalia [between Ethiopia, Djibouti and Kenya...]
and Sudan [between Egypt, French Central Africa, and Ethiopia]

i'll take the Numibian colony...
colonies to fight for :D

So, the Iroquis didn't make in this history? I also thought that they would have been much better off with out the American Revolutionary war. Anywho.



I would prefer to be Thailand, because I have actually lived there. I haven't been to the other countries, so I would like to RP Thailand.

Siam it is then...

[quote=Mare Serenus]
So, the Iroquis didn't make in this history? I also thought that they would have been much better off with out the American Revolutionary war. Anywho.



I would prefer to be Thailand, because I have actually lived there. I haven't been to the other countries, so I would like to RP Thailand.[/quotet]
Siam it is then...

Where would you like your capital and what's your history?

[I'm China...we should get to be good friends :D]

I continue with my plans with no regard for french demands.

Wow...this is getting heated...and it's not even RT...

GO EUROPE!!!

Wow...this is getting heated...and it's not even RT...

GO EUROPE!!!

But of course, I mean historically, wars weren't uncommon...just we're rping it now doesn't mean that it's not supposed to happen...i mean the war off Austrian Succession (1740-1748) was just over when the Seven Years' war (1756-1763) started out...[in some books, the Seven Years' war was a continuation of the War of Austrian Succession with different alliances...]

Well, it will have to be decided in the game. So when it starts, how is Germany going to be split? Just wondering.

History of France: 1750-1930

1754: Tensions over the Ohio Valley with France lead to the Treaty of Richmond, negotiated between Ensign Jumonville, representing France, and Colonel Washington, representing Virginia, in which the Virginia Colony agreed to share rule with France in the Ohio Valley for a period of twenty years; these lines become permanent after the treaty expires

1770: A French Army is sent from France to India to exploit its minimal gains up to that point. The Army expands French territory across Southern India, clashing with the Mughals from 1758-70. After a French Army captures Hyderabad and Nagpur, a terrible defeat is inflicted when laying siege to Bombay which saves the Mughal Empire and stops French ambitions in India.

1772: Increasing middle-class merchants and people of the lower classes call for more liberty, encouraged by the great French philosophes of the past. The French monarchy puts down these protests by force.

1784: As the decadence of the French monarchy becomes more and more apparent, new protests such as a flamboyant Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen is published, inflaming sentiments in France and across Europe

1786: The French crown places claim to influence across the Rhine River and declares that any trespassers on the sovereignty of the German states near the East Bank would have to deal with France

1793: A popular rebellion is led by the young General Napoleon Bonaparte, a military genius who gathers dissatisfied armies to himself and deposes the king, making himself Emperor. The French nation is liberalized, adding aspects such as a code of laws, bill of rights, and increasing the importance of the Estates-General.

1800: A new constitution is published, making the French Emperor the absolute power, yet needing to listen to the parlement for aspects such as war approval and funding

1820: Napoleon leads his last campaign, cementing the French hold on the south-central Indian plateau and reorganizing the Mississippi Valley which settlers have rather succesfully been encouraged to populate.

1848-1900: French armies and navies defeat the Barbary pirates, extending their control over North Africa. Gradually, control is extended inland across much of Africa.

1860: Napoleon III violates parlement's rights, gathering more power to himself through personal bureaucracy and a mass call to arms in response to dangers presented by Socialistic movements in German and Italian city-states.

1900: The Ohio River Valley, Canada, North Africa, and Southern India recieve their own representation in the parlement and Estates-General, including elected governors at St Louis, New Orleans, Ottawa, Tunis, and Hyderabad

1929: Tensions mount as Germany begins to rumble of uniting, and Austria tries to exert its power there. France looks to an alliance with Prussia.

1801 - China's first expedition to France ends up in a near failure, after incompatible cultural customs were never truly clarified during the visit; the emissaries never found their way to Paris... [this isn't so important]

1823 - Despite being in the midst of war, the Emperor HuangShuo sends out emmissaries to the UK, France, Spain, Austria, and Russia to gain official recognition and attain military supplies. The Emperor send an armistice plea to the Empress Dowager, who ignores it, assuming that she is winning the war. The Spanish king offers a trade agreement and minor agreement on the recognition of the Shi claim to China. The Austrian Emperor offered military supplies, drill instructors, and important trade and recognition agreements... All of these actions helped to confide the trust of the Shi Emperor against the Qing.


How does France react to these acts by China?

The French recognize the young Emperor Huagnshao, but will commit no troops or arms to aid in a fight which is not theres to become involved

Just to get an idea of where's what and what's going on...

I HAVE A MAP THAT IS NOT THE FINAL PRODUCT...

I know someone is going to argue that I didn't give them their due...

If I didn't give the due, I'll fix that; if I did give the due, please don't exacerbate the issue...

again...this is not the final product...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Naktan_Industries/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=191043

just a note...the gray lands are unclaimed at this moment..

France should be claiming New Calendonia, but they haven't yet...at least I was kind enough not to claim the land for myself...

Somalia and Sudan have not been resolved...and I didn't change the Congos yet, because I didn't get a firm consensus from either party...

I don't know what's going on in America honestly...you guys need to resolve that... [wonder why the French-Indian War happened in the first place...]

the discreptancy between the distance from Alaska and Russia is unreal...ignore that...there is no wide blue sea between the two...

Persia, Poland, and Mughals are still on the map...

anything else?

Well, it will have to be decided in the game. So when it starts, how is Germany going to be split? Just wondering.

History of France: 1750-1930

1754: Tensions over the Ohio Valley with France lead to the Treaty of Richmond, negotiated between Ensign Jumonville, representing France, and Colonel Washington, representing Virginia, in which the Virginia Colony agreed to share rule with France in the Ohio Valley for a period of twenty years; these lines become permanent after the treaty expires

1770: A French Army is sent from France to India to exploit its minimal gains up to that point. The Army expands French territory across Southern India, clashing with the Mughals from 1758-70. After a French Army captures Hyderabad and Nagpur, a terrible defeat is inflicted when laying siege to Bombay which saves the Mughal Empire and stops French ambitions in India.

1772: Increasing middle-class merchants and people of the lower classes call for more liberty, encouraged by the great French philosophes of the past. The French monarchy puts down these protests by force.

1784: As the decadence of the French monarchy becomes more and more apparent, new protests such as a flamboyant Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen is published, inflaming sentiments in France and across Europe

1786: The French crown places claim to influence across the Rhine River and declares that any trespassers on the sovereignty of the German states near the East Bank would have to deal with France

1793: A popular rebellion is led by the young General Napoleon Bonaparte, a military genius who gathers dissatisfied armies to himself and deposes the king, making himself Emperor. The French nation is liberalized, adding aspects such as a code of laws, bill of rights, and increasing the importance of the Estates-General.

1800: A new constitution is published, making the French Emperor the absolute power, yet needing to listen to the parlement for aspects such as war approval and funding

1820: Napoleon leads his last campaign, cementing the French hold on the south-central Indian plateau and reorganizing the Mississippi Valley which settlers have rather succesfully been encouraged to populate.

1848-1900: French armies and navies defeat the Barbary pirates, extending their control over North Africa. Gradually, control is extended inland across much of Africa.

1860: Napoleon III violates parlement's rights, gathering more power to himself through personal bureaucracy and a mass call to arms in response to dangers presented by Socialistic movements in German and Italian city-states.

1900: The Ohio River Valley, Canada, North Africa, and Southern India recieve their own representation in the parlement and Estates-General, including elected governors at St Louis, New Orleans, Ottawa, Tunis, and Hyderabad

1929: Tensions mount as Germany begins to rumble of uniting, and Austria tries to exert its power there. France looks to an alliance with Prussia.

Good place to start :)

Could I have the sudan and somalia(I think thats what that is anyway)? I just dont see any point to letting other nations gobble them up I geuss.

Why not have Ethiopia claim Somalia?

We'll agree to the switch (with regards to the Congos; I thought I saw that France wanted both, and England doesn't need every speck on the map). With regards to the Americas: The Treaty of Richmond settles the Anglo-French boundary disputes in the Ohio River Valley by splitting the territory; in 20 years, the split is permanent. That split holds, although occasional warfare tests it.

With regards to Europe: England stands by its loyal ally Prussia and will probably back it, even in the event that it means cooperation with France, against any Austrian aggression.

France - Did you execute Louis XVIII in your version of the French Revolution? If so, then the Napoleonic Wars would have happened, in different form. If no, then intervention is less likely and less dramatic. Oh, and Haiti could become independent, depending on the feelings of the Frenchmen on the island. If in favor of the French Revolutionary gov't, a successful revolution on Haiti is doubtful (due to the fact that the French Revolutionaries would not delay in recovering their colony); if not, then the sequence of events that led to Haitian independence (revolt by free blacks, joined by slaves, leading to defeat for the French due to disease, lack of manpower, and the delay in time between the revolt and the arrival of French reinforcements (due to initial support of the rebels by the French Revolutionary gov't)) remains open.

Everyone not in this yet: Yet again, why not try it?
Still available: Prussia, the Ottoman Empire, Portugal, Holland, the Mughal Empire, Denmark-Norway, Sweden, the Papal States, Venice, Ethiopia, and more!

Could I have the sudan and somalia(I think thats what that is anyway)? I just dont see any point to letting other nations gobble them up I geuss.

Seeing as there is a proposition to offer Somalia to Ethiopia, do you concede or do you wish to rip it from Somalia? And I can give you Sudan, seeing as neither France nor England [nor Ottomans, wherever they are now...] are claiming it...

But honestly, I'd rather give Somalia to Austria than to Ethiopia...traditionally, Ethiopia is a neo-Judaic, neo-Christian country [King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba]...they'd be more moving north than south, towards Jerusalem, into conflicts with the Ottomans. But I leave it to you to come to some conclusion about that...

and any criticisms on my map?

[Britain, Congo going to France...]

[France and Britain and possibly Spain...I need something more connclusive than occassional warfare tests the borders...where are they?]

BTW...I accidentally gave France Camerun in the map...but seeing as there were no claims to Camerun, I don't think there would be a problem with it...

Keep the Congos as they currently are; we don't need to give you more work. Same with Cameroon.

In terms of N. America - perhaps England loses northern Ohio (basically the Western Reserve extended further west) to the French in an 1898-1901 Congolese War, fought due to English allegations of French use of slave labor in the Congo. The war won England some land (namely, the rest of the Republic of the Congo) extending from their small slice of Congolese territory.

In re Ethiopia: Northern expansion makes more sense, although expansion into Somalia would be to the east, not to the south. Further, having an Austrian colony makes sense, given that they'd probably eventually decide to colonize - "Everyone else is doing it, so we'll do it, too."
The Sudan is less likely to be the site of conflict between Ethiopia and the Ottomans so much as with the French. How about a Sudanese War of 1889, in which Ethiopia and the Ottomans fought on the same side against France, due to anti-French sentiment in both nations, leading to the Sudan being split (Ottomans retain the northern third, France takes the southern third, and Ethiopia acquires the central third (which includes the Darfur))?

Keep the Congos as they currently are; we don't need to give you more work. Same with Cameroon.

In terms of N. America - perhaps England loses northern Ohio (basically the Western Reserve extended further west) to the French in an 1898-1901 Congolese War, fought due to English allegations of French use of slave labor in the Congo. The war won England some land (namely, the rest of the Republic of the Congo) extending from their small slice of Congolese territory.

In re Ethiopia: Northern expansion makes more sense, although expansion into Somalia would be to the east, not to the south. Further, having an Austrian colony makes sense, given that they'd probably eventually decide to colonize - "Everyone else is doing it, so we'll do it, too."
The Sudan is less likely to be the site of conflict between Ethiopia and the Ottomans so much as with the French. How about a Sudanese War of 1889, in which Ethiopia and the Ottomans fought on the same side against France, due to anti-French sentiment in both nations, leading to the Sudan being split (Ottomans retain the northern third, France takes the southern third, and Ethiopia acquires the central third (which includes the Darfur))?


you've just given me more work by fixing Congo, now having to fix back?

AYE

I haven't done anything in Sudan or Somalia [THANK GOODNESS NO]...is France okay with proposal? cuz it seems reasonable enough [historically, Ethiopia beat Italy in 1899 when the Italians tried to invade...they didn't try again until 1935 when they had tanks and airplanes...and they still had problems...]

No, keep it as however you have it now, even if it doesn't match the map. Sorry!

No, keep it as however you have it now, even if it doesn't match the map. Sorry!

I uploaded the new map...

please keep in mind that it is dynamic...

if you feel that i am being pressed too much, dont...i volunteered to do it...and i intend to do it well...doing it well means i get good feedback on what it is that i have done... if britain wants DRcongo, i can provide it...if not, i will leave it as it stands now...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Naktan_Industries/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=191043

I uploaded the new map...

please keep in mind that it is dynamic...

if you feel that i am being pressed too much, dont...i volunteered to do it...and i intend to do it well...doing it well means i get good feedback on what it is that i have done... if britain wants DRcongo, i can provide it...if not, i will leave it as it stands now...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Naktan_Industries/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=191043

I like the idea of ethiopia expanding, however I would perfer if they got most/all of sudan to 1/3. Maybe austria participates in this war on the side of ethiopia to frustrate expansion of my european rivals.

I like the idea of ethiopia expanding, however I would perfer if they got most/all of sudan to 1/3. Maybe austria participates in this war on the side of ethiopia to frustrate expansion of my european rivals.

a good reason why i haven't touched it yet...

I suppose my Congolese war gains are gone; replace them with Ceylon, which we never claimed originally, but got according to the map.

What's the nation just north of Mughal India?

By the way, we missed Hawaii. Britain historically was on the best relations w/ Hawaii of the European powers; Russia made a few attempts in the 1790s, which failed due to ineffective leadership, to court Hawaii. If Britain wins out, Hawaii would remain independent, but Pearl Harbor is British. If Russia wins out, Hawaii probably remains independent, but Pearl is Russian.

Beyond that, Britain might have taken Tierra del Fuego from Spain in, perhaps, the Cuban War (1888-1889; fought due to British backing of José Martí's rebellion against Spain (we backed Martí to secure Cuban sugar) and ending up in the transfer of Tierra del Fuego along with guaranteed sugar exports (w/o tariffs) (maybe for the next twenty years only on this?)), although I'll need Spain's approval for this.

Thanks for the map. You even got Okinowa in!

Most of it looks good. Maybe we should just let Sudan be independent? If not, then I have not problems with Ethiopia taking it.

and ok, I'll take my New Caledonia

The reason to divide the Sudan is to not overwhelm Ethiopia with a huge rebellious piece of relatively useless land. Instead, I proposed to give Ethiopia a smaller, somewhat less rebellious, but still useless piece of land and an international reputation. I proposed to give you some land to help preserve your reputation - we didn't lose, we settled; plus, we beat those Austrians whenever they tried to attack us! (Whether the last point is true is up to you and Austria, and meaningless overall.)

I suppose my Congolese war gains are gone; replace them with Ceylon, which we never claimed originally, but got according to the map.

What's the nation just north of Mughal India?

By the way, we missed Hawaii. Britain historically was on the best relations w/ Hawaii of the European powers; Russia made a few attempts in the 1790s, which failed due to ineffective leadership, to court Hawaii. If Britain wins out, Hawaii would remain independent, but Pearl Harbor is British. If Russia wins out, Hawaii probably remains independent, but Pearl is Russian.

Beyond that, Britain might have taken Tierra del Fuego from Spain in, perhaps, the Cuban War (1888-1889; fought due to British backing of José Martí's rebellion against Spain (we backed Martí to secure Cuban sugar) and ending up in the transfer of Tierra del Fuego along with guaranteed sugar exports (w/o tariffs) (maybe for the next twenty years only on this?)), although I'll need Spain's approval for this.

Thanks for the map. You even got Okinowa in!

I was hoping that you wouldn't notice that...although Hawaii is rather considerably too important to leave out...it's right smack in the middle of the Pacific...

ANd BTW, don't forget to be checking out my posts on my chronolgy [unless it's alright with everyone if I repost them...]

check with spain on Tierra del Fuego...

The nation north of Mughals is Afghanistan [bad depiction, but it works!!!]

I was hoping that you wouldn't notice that...although Hawaii is rather considerably too important to leave out...it's right smack in the middle of the Pacific...

ANd BTW, don't forget to be checking out my posts on my chronolgy [unless it's alright with everyone if I repost them...]

check with spain on Tierra del Fuego...

The nation north of Mughals is Afghanistan [bad depiction, but it works!!!]

I dividing Sudan into Ottoman north, Ethiopia south, and French extras around their territories...

The reason I proposed giving Ethiopia central Sudan was to give them more of the Darfuri population (which lives in Western Sudan), who would be somewhat less likely to rebel than the Muslims living everywhere else. Just a thought...

The reason I proposed giving Ethiopia central Sudan was to give them more of the Darfuri population (which lives in Western Sudan), who would be somewhat less likely to rebel than the Muslims living everywhere else. Just a thought...

Darfur is a modern crisis...

While I don't want to downplay the atrocities that go around there, it's not something that would happen for a long time, even in 1930...

The only real way the Ethiopia could get west Sudan is if France doesn't intervene [which seems likely, since the France here doesn't seem to care too much...of course, I could be absolutely wrong...]

Darfuris, however, are not Muslims. The Muslims are more likely to rebel (e.g. RL uprising in support of the Mahdi) than the Darfuris. Perhaps some of Western Sudan would be appropriate/possible?

And just a thought...

THERE ARE A WHOLE BUNCH OF ISLANDS IN THE PACIFIC...

about what I said about doing it well...that's a little excessive...most politics from the region are literally about typhoons and flooding and atom bomb testing [well not for our time, but the typhoons and flooding are still relevant for us].

They would only be burdens for you, me and the rest of the world, hearing about how your nation failed to protect its land from the devestating acts of nature, like a giant tsunami hat wipes out all of the island anyway [Hawaii and the Galapogos, I will make the exceptions...]

There's always guano, phosphates, and tourism...

Darfuris, however, are not Muslims. The Muslims are more likely to rebel (e.g. RL uprising in support of the Mahdi) than the Darfuris. Perhaps some of Western Sudan would be appropriate/possible?

well, if your concern is with the religious turmoil in the region...I'd have to do a little more the Ottomans than its already done...

hm, can't think of much else to add

now more players are the need

on another note, where's russia? I need to know if he's making Moscow or St. Petersburg his capital...

on yet another note, I've put in the capitals for the local governments that have no leader yet...the smaller dots represent the fact that they don't have leaders to govern them or their leaders haven't been on enough to give me any information...not to mention that those are where the traditional capitals are located. In cases like Japan and Russia, where there are two traditional choices, I went with the one that was at the time...

On my final note, there are some islands north of New Calendonia that have not been claimed.. [the Solomon Islands] that have not been claimed...China will claim them if no one else does...[I'd like to but seeing as their traditional ruler was the UK, I'm leaving it open again...and I'm hoping that this is the last of the island issues...except for Hawaii which should be resolved or else China takes it too :)]

We'll exercise our historical claim and take the Solomons; Rabaul makes a great naval base.

on another note, where's russia? I need to know if he's making Moscow or St. Petersburg his capital...

on yet another note, I've put in the capitals for the local governments that have no leader yet...the smaller dots represent the fact that they don't have leaders to govern them or their leaders haven't been on enough to give me any information...not to mention that those are where the traditional capitals are located. In cases like Japan and Russia, where there are two traditional choices, I went with the one that was at the time...

On my final note, there are some islands north of New Calendonia that have not been claimed.. [the Solomon Islands] that have not been claimed...China will claim them if no one else does...[I'd like to but seeing as their traditional ruler was the UK, I'm leaving it open again...and I'm hoping that this is the last of the island issues...except for Hawaii which should be resolved or else China takes it too :)]

silly me, I left out the pic link...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Naktan_Industries/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=191043

We'll exercise our historical claim and take the Solomons; Rabaul makes a great naval base.

the new map does not contain the update...

Well done, sir! Now, if only Spain and Russia were on so that we could settle the issues of Tierra del Fuego, Florida, and Hawaii...

Well done, sir! Now, if only Spain and Russia were on so that we could settle the issues of Tierra del Fuego, Florida, and Hawaii...

France agrees with the map?

newest map with all the updates...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Naktan_Industries/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=191043

Well done, sir! Now, if only Spain and Russia were on so that we could settle the issues of Tierra del Fuego, Florida, and Hawaii...

i would like to keep Florida. i don't want Hawaii, and you can have Tierra del Fuego as long as i still get my Suger tariffs after 10 years, rather then the said 20...

Just an FYI...I've got a conference in Boston, USA this weekend, [from Thursday to Monday]...

I will probably be unable to access the Internet during those times [sadly]...therefore, keep posting your stuff...I'll get to them when I come back...and keep creating history...integrate your histories too! I'm trying to think about what China would be like in the 1930s, referencing all of the history in between the time when the history diverged (1776) to then. I know China will have more Western interactions, in addition to a more assertive and aggressive policy in Asia, and that's going to affect more than just China...

so keep thinking and churning out the good ideas...we'll get to the end of these things...

Nebarri - Ten years is acceptable.

map looks fine

Okay. Sorry I haven't been on. So, does anyone have any problems with the Russian colonies?

Okay. Sorry I haven't been on. So, does anyone have any problems with the Russian colonies?

I want to know if it's Moscow or St. Petersburg...

And everything is fine with if its fine with you [unless making it fine with you makes me not fine...then we have a problem...]

this map is probably going to be the one...

if not, the one closest to the one right now...

Russia - Your claims on the map are fine. Now, do you want Pearl Harbor and an independent ally in Hawaii, or should I have those? The UK has a somewhat better historical claim; however, Russia's efforts in Hawaii (which mainly occurred in the 1790s and early 1800s) were frustrated by their sending an incompetent, blundering representative. If you desire Hawaii, you could have it as an independent ally with a base at Pearl; the Russians actually had workable plans to secure Hawaii's friendship, but, as previously mentioned, those plans fell flat due to incompetent execution.

France - Did you execute Louis XVIII in your version of the French Revolution? If so, then the Napoleonic Wars would have happened, in different form. If no, then intervention is less likely and less dramatic. Oh, and Haiti could become independent, depending on the feelings of the Frenchmen on the island. If in favor of the French Revolutionary gov't, a successful revolution on Haiti is doubtful (due to the fact that the French Revolutionaries would not delay in recovering their colony); if not, then the sequence of events that led to Haitian independence (revolt by free blacks, joined by slaves, leading to defeat for the French due to disease, lack of manpower, and the delay in time between the revolt and the arrival of French reinforcements (due to initial support of the rebels by the French Revolutionary gov't)) remains open.
This has not been answered. Please answer it.

Everyone not yet in this: Why not join in?
The following nations are still available:
The Ottoman Empire
Prussia
Portugal
Holland
Poland
Denmark-Norway
The Mughal Empire
Sweden
The Papal States
Ethiopia
Venice
Bavaria
Hawaii
Afghanistan
Hesse
Munster
Cologne
The Palatinate
Mecklemburg
Holstien
Wurzburg
Lundburg
Anhalt
Genoa
Modena
Florence
Padua
Naples
Switzerland

(1) Since I like Russian names, it's Moscow
(2) Independant ally, please

well, my revolution is more gradual, it is more of a coup and a gradual change to a constitutional monarchy. I think with France united and not especially revolutionary, especially with no US revolution - Haiti would remain French

If Russia doesn't take Hawaii, an excessively imperialistic China will :)

[or Britain...whichever the case...bearing in mind that while historical claims are indeed necessary to form our present ideas, a lot of the stuff that happened historical were resultant of some of the things that didn't happen in our scenario...not to say that it is unlikely that Russia would be interested...Africa for one, America for two, and the rest of the world for that matter...things have changed...and while it would be a whole lot easier if we get onto the historical basis of things, it doesn't have to follow that way exactly...

That said, we've been reasonable about what would happen in our scenario and I judge that we have a good system of the world in hand, even if everything here really wouldn't make sense for its time [France and England not going to war? the first time that happened was in 1898 when they were neck-to-neck in Sudan...Austria colonizing? the most they got from empire was the Balkans and several tons of aspirin...and so on...let's have fun...YOU GO AHEAD AND CLAIM HAWAII, BRITAIN...if Russia protests, we'll have a mini-war over it or some major onference to resolve... need we be reminded about diplomacy in this era?]

I'll be gone in about 2 hours, so get all that you can before that if you can...otherwise, it'll have to wait until Monday [unless it's not in a map or related to China...]

[BTW, in my reconstructed history, I have an Islamophobic Emperor who declares war on the Mughals in 1872-1873 [China fares badly because this semi-psycho Emperor purged his army just before the war...but nothing changes much with China...]. In this war, the Emperor asks Britain if they'd be interested in helping in the war... If they would, then Britain gets a stab at taking some land from the Mughals :) if taking land is their ultimate objective [the Emperor's objective was to penalize the mughals for their obsessive interferences in China's Muslim population...and yes, the Mughals are Muslims...France owns the mostly Hindi population of India right now...]

(1) Since I like Russian names, it's Moscow
(2) Independant ally, please


I'll move the capital...

And I'll create a Hawaiian state...

Everyone not yet in this: Why not join in?
The following nations are still available:
The Ottoman Empire
Prussia
Portugal
Holland
Poland
Denmark-Norway
The Mughal Empire
Sweden
The Papal States
Ethiopia
Venice
Bavaria
Hawaii
Afghanistan
Hesse
Munster
Cologne
The Palatinate
Mecklemburg
Holstien
Wurzburg
Lundburg
Anhalt
Genoa
Modena
Florence
Padua
Naples
Switzerland

Please join if this seems remotely interesting!!!

We need the underlined countries for certain...

And I am gone...

And on my last note for a long while...

Spain...i might have erred in claiming the Marianas Islands...I thought that Germany claimed them in the 19th century, but they were claimed by Magellan in 1521 (damned Magellan...claimed everything!!!)...accordingly, China would like to keep its claim on the islands,offering a generous payment for the islands in 1874 [tell me if you accept].

have fun yall!!!

I accept that.

with clonies figured out now i ask what tech level we are at...as i said we are in 1930 so i would assume we have that level tech. but who discovered flight? or invented tanks?

with clonies figured out now i ask what tech level we are at...as i said we are in 1930 so i would assume we have that level tech. but who discovered flight? or invented tanks?

Theres nothing to say that we would have 1930 tech, we have avoided alot of wars, which of course are the primary reason for weapon development. Obviously some weapons/technology would be developed regardless(I dont think the wrights wanted to make war planes, though I could be wrong...). I suppose without players for ottomans or prussia, wars have been lacking, so maybe if we had some1 for them and they started wars, it would be more justified to simply have 1930 tech.

I will be posting the Siam History tommorow. As for weapons I think the ultramodern nations at this time should be have bolt-action rifles, Somewhat safe airplanes, and heck even consumer travel on them. Artillary, I think would be advanced muzzle-loading with a few proto-types in breach loading, mainly in naval ships (Where breach loading is most needed due to consstraints in space). I don't think we should have submarines at all. Belt-feed machine guns I think would also be in the early proto-type stage.

I don't think that chemical weapons are appropriat (Due to the fact that we skipped the war they were introduced in). Though nations may be working on it in ultra-secreat laboratories.

I also think that the nations who have claims in North America would have to deal with the Native Americans but thats just me.

I will be posting the Siam History tommorow. As for weapons I think the ultramodern nations at this time should be have bolt-action rifles, Somewhat safe airplanes, and heck even consumer travel on them. Artillary, I think would be advanced muzzle-loading with a few proto-types in breach loading, mainly in naval ships (Where breach loading is most needed due to consstraints in space). I don't think we should have submarines at all. Belt-feed machine guns I think would also be in the early proto-type stage.

I don't think that chemical weapons are appropriat (Due to the fact that we skipped the war they were introduced in). Though nations may be working on it in ultra-secreat laboratories.

I also think that the nations who have claims in North America would have to deal with the Native Americans but thats just me.

I think thats certainly a valid opinion, certainly european nations claimed all of America fairly early however it wasnt until the 1800's (often mid-late) that the US gov. actually got rid of most of them. Perhaps eventually you get around to it, however england at one point prohibited colonists from settling beyond the appalachian mtns. in order to avoid conflict with the natives.

Theres nothing to say that we would have 1930 tech, we have avoided alot of wars, which of course are the primary reason for weapon development. Obviously some weapons/technology would be developed regardless(I dont think the wrights wanted to make war planes, though I could be wrong...). I suppose without players for ottomans or prussia, wars have been lacking, so maybe if we had some1 for them and they started wars, it would be more justified to simply have 1930 tech.
I'd say England would have a lot of more 1930s tech. If they had avoided war for so many years, I think that they would have spent that time making new weapons/new inventions.

A scroll in the Vatican archives, containing a summary of Siam history with notes from various scholars

OOC: Italicized is the vatican scholars

1767:King Taksin leads the Siamese army and frees Siam from the Burmese and Ayutthaya Kingdoms. For the first time all of the people of Siam are united.

Our research has shown that it was probably the Burmease army that destoyed the Ayutthaya kingdom, with Taksin coming a few months afterwords

1769:The glorious King Taksin moves the capital to Thonburi

1782:Then a great sickness of the mind befell our leader and for the sake of Siam, he was forced from the throne.

Our research has found that King Taksin was executed soon afterwords.

1782:The great General Chakri is anointed King of Siam and becomes King Rama the first. In his great wisdom the King Rama I moved the capital to Bangkok.

1809:King Rama II ascends the throne.

1824:King Rama III ascends the throne.

1826:At this time King Rama III in his wisdom saw fit to negotiate a treaty with the British Empire.

Our research shows that in King Rama III was reluctant to enter into a treaty with Britain but his advisors said that the British Empire could take over their nation like they had taken over Burma

1842:King Rama III defeats the kingdom of Vietnam.

Our research shows that at this time the king was also dealing with a rebellion in his own nation. Though it is unclear what happened to the rebel population there have been rumors that they were relocated and divided.

1850:The British came demanding for things that the King, in his wisdom did not give to them.

The Brtish ministers were actually trying to force to become a colony and give their citizens extraterritorality.

Rumors say that on his death bed King Rama III said, "We will have no more wars with Burma and Vietnam

1851:King Rama IV ascends the throne.

OOC: Just to warn people this is where I begin to change history.

1855:The British Govenor of Hong Kong came asking to negotiate with the King. King Mongkut in his wisdom did not sign a treaty.

Our research shows that the King at this time began many military reforms to bring his army to modern standard. Also at this time the first politcal reforms were beginning to come about.

It appears from our research that the only reason that the British did not invade was King Rama IV threatened to make a full alliance with the British. This is a tactic that all of the following the Siam Kings use to keep their country independent

OOC:This part is not so sure because I have to talk with The Beltway and Titicus.

1862:King Rama IV hires Anna Leonowens as a Governess, and to teach his wives and children western language, culture, and sciences.

OOC: In reality she was only hired as an English teacher, but as I said, I am changing the history.

1868:King Rama V ascends the throne. After ascending to the throne, King Rama V in his wisdom decided to stop slavery.

1873:King Rama V sends out emissaries around the world. He sends out Buddhist monks to the Vatican, Mecca, and Jerusalem to understand western religons and to teach about Buddha. He also encouraged people to go to the educational centers of the world, to learn as much as possible.

1906:The Great King Rama V is able to settle matters between the French and the English to avoid war.

King Rama V was able to get both the British and the French to back down by threatning to have allainces with both. He then threatened to ally with CHina and shut his borders to both France and Britain if they did not back down.

1910:King Rama VI ascends the throne.

Our research indicates that this history glosses over the fact that King Rama VI was incompetent. He also destabilzed the government somewhat when he did not produce an heir. The reason why he did not produce an heair was becasue he prefered the company of men.

OOC: I am not making that last fact up.

1918:King Rama VI graciously allows Britain and France to take control of some unclaimed land.

King Rama VI was only able to hold on to about half the land that his father was able to preserve.

1928:King Rama VII ascends the throne.

Not much is known abotu this new king however from all reports he is more popular with the Siamese people then the last King

OOC: Coming up with a name soon for the current king.

As a side note, England (and everyone else) has fought several colonial wars; I haven't yet gotten around to updating my TL, but I fight at least one major war (with fighting in North America, Africa, and India) with France (1899-1901; the Congolese War).

On Tech - 1930s tech, but w/ more emphasis on armoured cars and less tanks; further, aircraft will be a bit (5-10 years at most) behind, along with zeppelins. Naval tech should be at around the mid 20s\mid 30s in 1930 (carriers\rest of navy). Otherwise, 1930 tech in 1930.

Hawaii - perhaps it will be still fully independent, without any foreign bases in Pearl, but with China, the UK, and Russia all trying to influence the recently widowed Hawaiian Queen Abigail (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_Campbell_Kawananakoa)? That way, we can have diplomacy and intrigue in a beautiful setting...

Wars have indeed been lacking.

France - Did you successfully conquer Italy, Spain, or Germany during the Napoleonic era? If so, then we return to the RL timeline with regards to Italy or Germany (although to a lesser extent for the latter), and to a lesser extent with regards to Spanish colonies in the Americas (if you force the Spanish king into exile).
Any mid-19th century wars you could have us be involved in?

Siam - I'm thinking that England tries to undermine your authority throughout the 19th century, perhaps only giving up when you start to fall into the French orbit.

i would assume he never took over Spain...as that is part of how i want my history and because the American colonies would certinly not be under Spanish rule then...

I have edited my history though I need Beltway and Titicus to agree to some of it.

Siam - I'm thinking that England tries to undermine your authority throughout the 19th century, perhaps only giving up when you start to fall into the French orbit.

Actually Siam is the only country in the area not to become a colony. Something that the modern day Thai's are very proud of. But yes Britain does try to get all sorts of crazy things from Siam. But in this alternate history I have Siam is able to stand up a bit more for itself. Mainly through political conniving.

A History of the English People (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10418293&postcount=14)

But yes Britain does try to get all sorts of crazy things from Siam Examples? This could be useful...

A History of the English People (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10418293&postcount=14)

Examples? This could be useful...

For one thing the English demanded extraterritoriality. Meaning that British citizens could nto be tried by Siam courts. They would have to be shipped back to Britain for a trial there. Another was that the Siamese kings gave a lot of economic concessions to the British, then the British demanded to be given a total monopoly on an export (I think it was tea, rice, or bananas. I can't remember which). Then after being given all the economic concession, including no export/import duties, they muscle some of western siam away and allow the french to take a big chunk of eastern siam. In my alternate history the kings are able to hold on to about half of what they lost in the RW.

As I mentioned before, my Napoleonic Wars did happen, but they were not the radical liberal revolutions of the real world, they were more of a coup and a mass nationalization of the people. In my history the government gradually becomes more liberal, more like the British constitutional system, so it would be harder to undermine. And Beltway, if you undermined my govt, I could do the same to you, as you have a king too. I'm sure that in the course of the war, things would occur similar, but no conquering all of Europe.

Specifically, I would say that the French armies under Napoleon marched across central Europe, occupying large areas of Germany and Italy, even clashing with Austria or Prussia, but withdrew back behind our borders. I was thinking France would have gained the Rhineland and/or Piedmont, but that is claimed.

And Siam: I requested to own Indochina, but it was not given me as people said that it would remain in a stronger China's sphere of influence. So the French are really not in strength in your area, only exerting a little influence from southern India.

By the way, I meant undermining the Siamese gov't, not your own.
the French armies under Napoleon marched across central Europe, occupying large areas of Germany and Italy, even clashing with Austria or Prussia, but withdrew back behind our borders. I was thinking France would have gained the Rhineland and/or Piedmont, but that is claimed.

As long as you don't physically take control of much of the territory you conquer, and as long as you didn't combine parts of Italy (or Germany) together to create an easier-to-administrate group of states, we should be fine in terms of avoiding unification in those nations.

Thoughts on my new history, and on fitting in a mid-century war between us?

well, it makes more sense that there would be some fighting between us in a span of centuries. I think the war is fine, and must have had little impact as there was little change in the world borders.

No, my wars are too limited, so the smaller states stayed separate

I call Prussia

I call Prussia
Excellent! I finally have my ally in Europe...

Ok, explain it to me

I couldn't read the entire thread, so explainb it to me
Are we using an Earth II: Revitalization industry/military rules, or what?

None of this is probablyreal so, ok.

1704: Prussia is unified under King Frederick I.
1726:King Frederick I first dies, King Frederick II gains the throne.
1727:King Frederick wipes out early gealic tribes still living in the area
1756: King Frederick II dies, King Frederick III gains the throne.
1765: A huge increase in military and research accurs, Prussia closes its borders.
1823:Prussia opens it borders.
1824:King Frederick the VI gains the throne.
1832:Prussia has a huge inudstrial boom.
1845:King Frederick VI dies and Queen Mieka gains the throne.
1846:Queen Mieka is hung and King Frederick VII gains the throne.
1888:King Frederick VII dies and King Frederick IX gains the throne.
1900:King Frederick IX dies and King Frederick X gains the throne.
1930:Present day

Mainly the same borders of 1750. Kinda take things from there - like France, Austria, Britain, Russia, Spain are the superpowers, compete over Germany, Italy, the such

I think maybe Prussia should have a little bit more in Germany (like it expanded a bit during the centuries.

And France (me) is interested in forming a defensive alliance against Austria for now

Mainly the same borders of 1750. Kinda take things from there - like France, Austria, Britain, Russia, Spain are the superpowers, compete over Germany, Italy, the such

I think maybe Prussia should have a little bit more in Germany (like it expanded a bit during the centuries.

And France (me) is interested in forming a defensive alliance against Austria for now

Prussia would join in that alliance.

this is in response to threats by Austria. In the case of Britain and France going to war, you could chose which of your allies you wished to side with.

A scroll in the Vatican archives, containing a summary of Siam history with notes from various scholars

OOC: Italicized is the vatican scholars

1767:King Taksin leads the Siamese army and frees Siam from the Burmese and Ayutthaya Kingdoms. For the first time all of the people of Siam are united.

Our research has shown that it was probably the Burmease army that destoyed the Ayutthaya kingdom, with Taksin coming a few months afterwords

1769:The glorious King Taksin moves the capital to Thonburi

1782:Then a great sickness of the mind befell our leader and for the sake of Siam, he was forced from the throne.

Our research has found that King Taksin was executed soon afterwords.

1782:The great General Chakri is anointed King of Siam and becomes King Rama the first. In his great wisdom the King Rama I moved the capital to Bangkok.

1809:King Rama II ascends the throne.

1824:King Rama III ascends the throne.

1826:At this time King Rama III in his wisdom saw fit to negotiate a treaty with the British Empire.

Our research shows that in King Rama III was reluctant to enter into a treaty with Britain but his advisors said that the British Empire could take over their nation like they had taken over Burma

1842:King Rama III defeats the kingdom of Vietnam.

Our research shows that at this time the king was also dealing with a rebellion in his own nation. Though it is unclear what happened to the rebel population there have been rumors that they were relocated and divided.

1850:The British came demanding for things that the King, in his wisdom did not give to them.

The Brtish ministers were actually trying to force to become a colony and give their citizens extraterritorality.

Rumors say that on his death bed King Rama III said, "We will have no more wars with Burma and Vietnam

1851:King Rama IV ascends the throne.

OOC: Just to warn people this is where I begin to change history.

1855:The British Govenor of Hong Kong came asking to negotiate with the King. King Mongkut in his wisdom did not sign a treaty.

Our research shows that the King at this time began many military reforms to bring his army to modern standard. Also at this time the first politcal reforms were beginning to come about.

It appears from our research that the only reason that the British did not invade was King Rama IV threatened to make a full alliance with the British. This is a tactic that all of the following the Siam Kings use to keep their country independent

OOC:This part is not so sure because I have to talk with The Beltway and Titicus.

1862:King Rama IV hires Anna Leonowens as a Governess, and to teach his wives and children western language, culture, and sciences.

OOC: In reality she was only hired as an English teacher, but as I said, I am changing the history.

1868:King Rama V ascends the throne. After ascending to the throne, King Rama V in his wisdom decided to stop slavery.

1873:King Rama V sends out emissaries around the world. He sends out Buddhist monks to the Vatican, Mecca, and Jerusalem to understand western religons and to teach about Buddha. He also encouraged people to go to the educational centers of the world, to learn as much as possible.

1906:The Great King Rama V is able to settle matters between the French and the English to avoid war.

King Rama V was able to get both the British and the French to back down by threatning to have allainces with both. He then threatened to ally with CHina and shut his borders to both France and Britain if they did not back down.

1910:King Rama VI ascends the throne.

Our research indicates that this history glosses over the fact that King Rama VI was incompetent. He also destabilzed the government somewhat when he did not produce an heir. The reason why he did not produce an heair was becasue he prefered the company of men.

OOC: I am not making that last fact up.

1918:King Rama VI graciously allows Britain and France to take control of some unclaimed land.

King Rama VI was only able to hold on to about half the land that his father was able to preserve.

1928:King Rama VII ascends the throne.

Not much is known abotu this new king however from all reports he is more popular with the Siamese people then the last King

OOC: Coming up with a name soon for the current king.

BTW, yes I have returned...

And Siam...nice history :) I'd be a little cautious about your exploits to reduce modernization, although I'd say that Saim would be a little far for China to handle...still, a war with Vietnam presses dangerously close to a war with China [unless I happen to be at war too :)]

I'll be updating my China profile later...I've gotten the people history up to 1920's, but I still need to get on to the diplomacy issues...

And Spain, thanks for the islands :) China generously offers a grand sum of some 150mil yuan :) [another thing to figure would be exchange rates around the world...]

And nice history to Prussia as well, although I would mourn the decreased activity of the Prussian state [although the absence of a Seven Years' War would have sanctioned it anyway...]

Last personal note, I think that this would be a great background for a new posting, which would be the real deal in terms of RPing...just suggestion to leave out the clutter...

And it would be nice to have some Turkey in the world too...

And notes on the alliance deal...I very seriously doubt that UK and France would be allied with Prussia at the same time, only because the anomisity wouldn't make it a feasible alliance [although passive support and acceptance would be in order on that note...UK was traditionally friendlier to Prussia than France was...but that's the regular history...we'll see how this game goes...]

well, it makes more sense that there would be some fighting between us in a span of centuries. I think the war is fine, and must have had little impact as there was little change in the world borders.

No, my wars are too limited, so the smaller states stayed separate

on a note...a war in america is definitely in order, to resolve the long standing tensions there...like France said, doesn't have to be major, just something that both parties can look to and acknowledge the border [Spain might be interested in this kind of war as well :)]

India might be another place as well...

Or even Germany, where an excessively powerful Franco-Prussian alliance [or just France] could upset the balance and bring the UK closer to Austria to restore the balance there...

Perhaps even trade rights over the seas [that will be a major theme, considering that no battle of Trafalgar secured the rights of the seas for the UK...]

lots of things... :)

1750 -1930

The nature of the Qing Dynasty [China]:

1750's - Local administrators lead an expedition against the Turkic peoples of Sinkiang, crushing the revolts and granting them limited autonomy afterwards.

1776 - Against the majority opinion of scholars, the Emperor Wei declares a reform of the Confucian state system.

1793 - Lord McCartney of the United Kingdom visits China; the mission ends in a slight failure, although relations with the UK are not badly hurt.

1801 - China's first expedition to France ends up in a near failure, after incompatible cultural customs were never truly clarified during the visit; the emissaries never found their way to Paris...

1803 - China's Emperor suddenly dies, leaving the regent Empress Dowager to lead China, in place of her 3-year-old son, HuangShuo.

1813 - China's Empress, in an effort to decrease the power of the nobles, agrees to the local administrators' of Hubei and Liaodong Provinces on the necessity for reform in the manners of the world, leading to the official decree on the 8th month of the year 10 of the regency barring all state examinations to attain bureaucratic power in the government. The Tang Revoly begins.

1816 - After five years of setbacks, the regent's son [aged 16] assumes command of the Imperial Army and leaves the Imperial Palace in Beijing to fight the rebels in China. Meanwhile, the Empress Dowager continued to consolidate her power in China.

1818 - A fanatical string of successes leads HuangShuo to achieve ultimate victory against the rebellion, the first Emperor in a long time to achieve such a thing. During his tenure in the campaign, the Emperor invited foreign advisors (against the bidding of his personal command) to modernize his forces to achieve victory. In that time, he developed a fondness for the Western powers and hoped to emulate their sophistry.

1819 - Against tradition, Emperor HuangShuo renounces the old claims of the nobles of the land and declared that he would be the sole authority of China. This upsets the nobles further, having lost the meritocractic bureaucracy and their traditional rights as nobles. The Empress Dowager, realizing that her son is becoming a grave threat to her rule, decides to return power to the nobles, in order to gain their favor. The War of Qing begins, in which the Empress Dowager maintains the control of the northern warlords, while Emperor HuangShuo successfully gains the loyalty of the people in the Canton regions. Having resolved to start anew the Chinese Empire, he establishes a temporary capital in Nanjing, with his intentions to build a new capital, to help purge away to old edifices of the Empire before.

1820 - HuangShuo establishes the Shi [World] Dyansty (on the Gregorian New Year, to better coordinate the Chinese calendar, the Western calendars, and the Imperial calendar] with his new capital in the city of Dongjing [in GuangDong Province on the Xi River - next to the city of Guangzhou; it is practically for points and purposes Hong Kong...except it is on the mainland...]. He sends an invitation to all the other nations to gain recognition of his new dynasty [which based on his knowledge of the old order, the Empress will not do]. The first campaigns along the Yangtzi River are successful, perhaps out of necessity to keep the Qing forces away; Sinkiang is conquered by Shi forces, with their modern weaponry, but the Qing still hold a formidable support of the northern provinces.

1821 - HuangShuo gains recognition from Yuenan (Vietnam), Choson(Korea), and Iben(Japan) as they all legitimize the Shi Dynasty as the true China, as his forces continue to win against the Qing; a major setback as the Emperor HuangShuo is shot in battle near Chengdu in Sichuan province - the center of the Shi Dynasty.

1822 - After medical treatments, the Emperor is well again, in time to repulse the sieges of Nanjing and Shanghai. In the meantime, Sinkiang and Xizang fall to the Qing forces.

1823 - Despite being in the midst of war, the Emperor HuangShuo sends out emmissaries to the UK, France, Spain, Austria, and Russia to gain official recognition and attain military supplies. The Emperor send an armistice plea to the Empress Dowager, who ignores it, assuming that she is winning the war. The Spanish king offers a trade agreement and minor agreement on the recognition of the Shi claim to China. The Austrian Emperor offered military supplies, drill instructors, and important trade and recognition agreements... All of these actions helped to confide the trust of the Shi Emperor against the Qing.

1824 - After an intense battle near Wuhan, the Shi forces regain the upperhand, with a massive arsenal of artillery from Austria and England (this assuming that the two sides agree to formalize relations); the Imperial Army lays siege to Beijing, after firm advice from all of the military commanders on the best way to end the war.

1825 - While under siege, the Emperess Dowager dies. The city capitulates on the 12th day of the 2nd of the Year 5 of the Emperor's reign. Soon thereafter, the Qing dynasty collapses and accepts the reign of the new dynasty. In a speech in Nanjing, Emperor HuangShuo cites the mandate of heaven and dictates the new policy of his dynasty:

-To further western ties.
-To improve the state of China after the war.
-To consolidate the power of the Emperor in China.
-To industrialize the country and improve the general conditions of the peasants.
-To establish similar requirements in other Asian territories.

In this speech, while maintaining a friendliness to the Western powers, China cites its age-old right as the "Middle Kingdom" and declares that all affairs in Asia should be directed to the Chinese (similar to the Monroe Doctrine). This slightly upsets the Western powers and some of China's neighbors in the days to come.

1826 - Marriage of HuangShuo to the House of Li. HuangShuo proceeds to consolidate his authority in China, reverting most of the forbidden zones to the peasantry, redrawing the districts in China to fit new powers and liquidated the Imperial monopoly on Imperial trade, opening the Chinese market to all people. In the following months, a zealous group of Confucian scholars rise in rebellion, launching the Wu Rebellion. While HuangShuo easily crushes the armed uprising, he cannot easily stamp out the sentiments. He begins building docks in Fuzhou for the Imperial navy and begins construction of an Imperial Palace on the Xi River.

1827 - Revolts start to rivet in the autonomous provinces of Sinkiang and Xizang; HuangShuo brutally crushes them all. Citing on the Emperor ShurHuangDi, he employs legalistic measures to centralize his authority. HuangShuo opts to cease reconstruction on the Great Wall. The second of the great Wu Revolts occurs in the ninth month of the year, which HuangShuo crushes again with intense brutality.

1828 - With friendly relations to the Austrian Empire, HuangShuo visits Vienna to review the Austrian Empire in his first tour of Europe. He begins to assimilate ties with the Ottoman Turks in his trip south to Constantinople, requesting official recognition and diplomatic ties in Turkey.

1829 - Impressed by his visits in Europe, Huang Shuo returns home to face a country nearly riddled with revolts. After dealing with each revolt in person, HuangShuo returned to Dongjing to commence plans on the School of Foreign Learning. HuangShuo begins to improve ties with Spain and Russia...

1830 - HuangShuo nearly dies in a battle against rebels in Heilongjiang; he rules for the next six months from his bedside in Dongjing. During that time, a small elite circle of army commanders and loyal governors form a council in the name of the Emperor and execute HuangShuo's orders with as much as brutal and full effect as he would have. After his injury, HuangShuo forms a new bureaucracy, based on the loyalties of the people closest to him.

1831 - With this new bureaucracy, HuangShuo's edicts and centralization efforts proceed much more cleanly and with fewer rebellions. The Imperial Palace in Dongjing is completed and he invites the entire city into the Imperial Courtyard, where he reaffirms his pledge to lead China as a major world power, rather than to stick its head in the ground and ignore the progresses of the world.

1832 - In an effort to control the northern rebellious folk, HuangShuo institutes a forced removal of some 60,000 people from Beijing to Dongjing. This is first of several forced removals during his reign, cumulating in a total of 4,000,000 forced removals from Beijing and other northern cities to Dongjing. Unknowingly, he creates a future problem of shanty towns and poor slums in the capital.

1833 - HuangShuo invites delegates from the UK and France to settle something in Dongjing [perhaps something about India...]. Later, HuangShuo initiates a large reform to increase the industrial productivity of China, seeing as his country lags behind the Western powers in that field.

1834 - War breaks out with Yuenan after HuangShuo dictates to Yuenan, Choson, and Iben to reform in the ways as China is reforming. With a modern army and HuangShuo at the head of the army, Yuenan is utterly beaten and agrees to the concessions that he declared in his edict; [how will Japan (Iben) react to this decree?]

1835 - Period of relative stability. China's economy and industry increases significantly relative to the pre-Shi period. The military is among the most dominant in Asia, with large manpower resources and adequate technology. HuangShuo completes the renovation of the Fuzhou docks and sails the fleet to Japan and Korea, in a demonstration of China's modernization; still the country is not up to par with the Western powers.

1839 - The Longtzi Rebellion begins in Sichuan; HuangShuo leads the army out to defend against the rebellion, beating the army in every engagement. In the last engagement at the end of the year, HuangShuo develops a fever and returns to Dongjing to recuperate.

1842 - The Lonngtzi Rebellion is crushed finally, after three exhausting years. HuangShuo is still ill from various ailments, but he makes public appearances whenever his body can make the effort.

1844 - The Imperial Court announces the birth of the first child to HuangShuo, a male heir - they name him YongQin.

1847 - HuangShuo feels competent to return to the public scene and resumes his vigorous campaigns to modernize China into a great power. His apparent quest for superiority leads to suspicion among the European powers and more importantly with Iben [Japan] and the other tributary states.

1849 - Realizing that China is starting to lose its grip on the affairs of Asia, HuangShuo sends an emissary to Spain to discuss peaceful terms of a semi-formal alliance in the Pacific, granted their interests are mutual in the defense of the South China Seas [Taiwan and the Philippines], hoping to improve his ties with the West and likewise maintain a strong military presence in all of the other Asian nations [Vietnam, Korea, and Japan]...(pending the discussions with Spain at this point in history.)

1850 - HuangShuo, noting with some disdain that Portugal maintains a large presence in Macau, not too far from Dongjing, sends a request to Portugal in regards to the purchase back of the territory...(pending if Portugal comes, how they would react...if Spain accepts the mutual defense of the South China Sea idea, the Portuguese might be inclined to accept the payment deal)...HuangShuo leads the fleet out for an exercise in the Tsuchima Straits.

1852 - At the age of 8, YongQin joins HuangShuo in the public figure, trying to bolster his attention to the matters of the state and maintaining a positive, visible status in the country. HuangShuo wants YongQin to be a powerful leader like himself, in knowledge of military state affairs.

1856 - On the 36th anniversary of the Shi Dynasty, HuangShuo sends out invitations to all the nations with which he formally recognizes: [Vietnam, Korea, Japan, France, UK, Spain, Austria, Russia, Sweden, Ottomans, Portugal, Denmark, Bavaria, Genoa, Venice, Modena, Sardinia, Siam, Mughals, Persia, and Ethiopia] (how many come and how does it go?). During the celebrations, HuangShuo introduces the world politics to his son, and furthermore introduces the world to the modernizing China, to which the Western powers should take into regard, as technologically, China is near their equal in many matters. (From 1776 to 1856 [really 1820-1856], China modernizes considerably rapidly and to minimal instability crises).

1857 - YongQin visits London and Paris with the Imperial mission to the UK and France [what happens...]. HuangShuo initiates the last of his most radical reforms - the emancipation of the peasants [in a bid to finally break the back of the nobles after years of compliance]. With a non-peasant class, the population of the urban centers grows dramatically, fueling socialist fervors.

1858 - HuangShuo goes to Constantinople to secure better relations with the Turks and to help bolster their falling position in Europe. The Renshui Rebellion strikes Shanghai and Nanjing. HuangShuo returns to assume command of the Imperial Army, taking YongQin with him. In the siege of the city, HuangShuo demonstrates his heartless brutality for rebellious subjects, and it falls in some part to YongQin.

1860 - China and Afghanistan go to war over the autonomy of the Sinkiang province. During the war, HuangShuo is severely injured as he led a cavalry charge. YongQin assumes command in Afghanistan and wins the war in two years. Doctors all say that the wounds incurred on HuangShuo were fatal and that he was certain to die within the year. As is in the tradition of Chinese Emperors, HuangShuo makes ready a burial name - Emperor Hao [white]. Kabul is taken.

1861 - HuangShuo dies. YongQin returns temporarily to Dongjing to attend the burial in the Imperial Courtyard. Seizing opportunity of the late Emperor's death, several provinces claim autonomy ass YongQin is away in Afghanistan. The military command is unable to prevent the autonomy of Xizang and Qihan.

1862 - YongQin concludes the war in Afghanistan in return for Afghanistan's cessation of meddling intrusions in the state of China and reparations of a great sum. YongQin proceeds to extinguish the autonomous provinces, in a manner more brutal than HuangShuo. In the immediate months following the capitulation of Lhasa, YongQin demands the loyalty of all the governors and all the commanders in the realm of China.

1863 - YongQin marries into the Liu Family and has a daughter born later.

1864 - YongQin marries into another family and has another daughter in 1866.

1866 - In a goodwill trip to Spain, YongQin professes China's new ally in the West [traditionally, the Ottomans were favored by China as a non-Western Western power; but YongQin's favor with the Muslims fell out in the war in Afghanistan]. (how Spain reacts to this...)

1867 - YongQin marries a third wife [from Spain] and has a daughter later that year. YongQin proceeds to purge the military ranks, fearing a conspiracy plot to overthrow him, in part because of a lack of a male heir to the throne...

1868 - YongQin's Spanish wife bears a son, named XiZhou...

1871 - YongQin's first wife bears him a son, named DongZhou...

1872 - YongQin declares war on the Mughal Empire, in rage over some issues on the treatment of Muslims in his country. He sends an emissary to the UK to propose an alliance against the Mughals.

1873 - The war ends with no considerable gains for China. In truth, the war hurt China more than it hurt the Mughals; YongQin begins a general purge against all Muslims in his territory, fearing a rebellion from them. All the purges leads to strikes in the factories across China. YongWin institutes martial order in all the nation's factories.

1874 - YongQin purchases the Marianas Islands from Spain [their original owner...I discovered this late...].

1880 - 60th anniversary celebrations for the Shi Dynasty.

1891 - Before YongQin visits the Hawaiian Islands to make preparations for peaceful use of their land, in a bid to continue China's expansion into the Pacific, he dies in Beijing; after a short dispute in Dongjing, the court accepts Emperor Xizhou, the son of the YongQin's Spanish wife.

1893 - XiZhou dies in Dongjing. DongZhou succeeds the throne without a problem.

1898 - Dongzhou's heir - ZhengTzi - is born to the Empress WaiMa.

1899 - Dongzhou dies in an accident, while leading the Imperial Army in parade, after his horse fell out under him and caused a hemorrhage. WaiMa assumes a regency, pledging to step down once ZhengTzi became of age.

1900 - Riots break out in Shanghai, Chungqing, Chengdu, and Wuhan against the Empress Dowager's rule. Unlike the predecesors, WaiMa institutes martial order in the revolting cities, to secure peace and order to prepare China for the young Emperor. Empress WaiMa looks abroad for good teachers, since she does not trust the traditional court instructors, looking in places like Spain, Austria, France, UK, and the Ottomans.

1902 - WaiMa hires a horse trainer and instructor from Mongolia to teach ZhengTzi to ride a horse and learn how to perform well on the steed, in the manner of Emperor Hao's early reign. She also hires a teacher from [country that seems most receptive to this idea] to teach him science, technology, and Western customs. Finally, she hires LiHongZhang to teach ZhengTzi on how to run the Chinese state in a wise, enlightened manner - to treat the people fairly, exercise good force, deal with the Western Powers in their imperialistic ambitions, and among things, China's history, especially of Emperor Hao's rise to power.

1903 - War with [someone...anyone?] WaiMa goes out to secure support from [whomever] against [the said blah].

1905 - War ends [how?...].

1910 - In reaction to defiance, WaiMa sends three thousand soldiers into Vietnam to enforce the modernization policy. The soldiers are attacked, leading to a general invasion of Vietnam. WaiMa calls back the troops, in response to criticism on China's tributary policy.

1911 - ZhengTzi visits Rome, and meets with the Pope. WaiMa concludes a treaty with the Papal States, offering Rome authority over Catholics in China, as long as the authority from Rome does not interfere with China's authority with its citizens (a major move by WaiMa to improve relations with the Catholics in Spain and Austria). The Chinese navy blockades Kyoto and Nagoya, in response to Japan's increasing unwillingness to cooperate with China. Taking the precedence fom Vietnam, Japan ignores the calls to conform, leading to the Sino-Japanese War. WaiMa receives the support of Vietnam [surprisingly], Korea, and Siam [maybe if Siam accepts] (BRITAIN, IF YOU WANT TO, YOU CAN JOIN THIS ALLIANCE AND TAKE OKINAWA FROM JAPAN IN THIS SETTING :)), against the single power in Japan.

1912 - The Japanese attempt to attack Sakhalin Island, but the combined Chinese and Siamese [again, pending their support] navy crushes the invasion fleet at the Straits of Sendoku. The Chinese navy seizes Japanese islands near Taiwan, while Britain seizes Okinawa (pending approval). The Chinese and Korean army attack Shikoku via the Tsushima Straits.

1913 - With meditation from [whoever isn't fighting], China and Japan conclude peace, on the terms that Japan complies with the Chinese calls to modernize, China receives its fair share of territory, Britain receives its fair share of territory [Okinawa and the like], and reparations of 10mil yuan are paid to each of the participating countries [China, Vietnam, Korea, Siam, and UK]. At home, WaiMa is hailed as a national hero.

1915 - WaiMa formally announces the ascension of ZhengTzi on the 100th anniversary of the Shi Dynasty.

1920 - ZhengTzi becomes Emperor peacefully, as WaiMa semi-formally retires to a life of aged-motherly care for her son. ZhengTzi invites all the delegates from around the world to attend the 100th anniversary celebrations. In the 5th month, ZhengTzi visits London, Paris, Madrid, Vienna, Berlin, Moscow, and Constantinople in a good-will trip to all of the Western nations. When he returns, ZhengTzi initiates a massive reform policy to keep China's modernization in pace with the Western powers, if not better than them. He visits Hanoi, Seoul, Bangkok, and Kyoto in good-will trips to the Asian nations, to affirm China's role as a "fatherly" figure to guide the Asian states to autonomy from the Imperialism of the Western nations.

1921 - ZhengTzi officially changes the capital's name from Dongjing to Yajing, which he thinks is more appropriate. Faced with a growing problem of over-population, ZhengTzi stops the practice of forced relocations from other cities into Yajing.

[And I stop for reflection...]

Tell me on the progress of the things that need resolution...

and critique for logic and good sense...

1849 - Realizing that China is starting to lose its grip on the affairs of Asia, HuangShuo sends an emissary to Spain to discuss peaceful terms of a semi-formal alliance in the Pacific, granted their interests are mutual in the defense of the South China Seas [Taiwan and the Philippines], hoping to improve his ties with the West and likewise maintain a strong military presence in all of the other Asian nations [Vietnam, Korea, and Japan]...(pending the discussions with Spain at this point in history.)

Spain will accept an alliance

1856 - On the 36th anniversary of the Shi Dynasty, HuangShuo sends out invitations to all the nations with which he formally recognizes: [Vietnam, Korea, Japan, France, UK, Spain, Austria, Russia, Sweden, Ottomans, Portugal, Denmark, Bavaria, Genoa, Venice, Modena, Sardinia, Siam, Mughals, Persia, and Ethiopia] (how many come and how does it go?). During the celebrations, HuangShuo introduces the world politics to his son, and furthermore introduces the world to the modernizing China, to which the Western powers should take into regard, as technologically, China is near their equal in many matters. (From 1776 to 1856 [really 1820-1856], China modernizes considerably rapidly and to minimal instability crises).

Spain comes, and i expect it goes well

1866 - In a goodwill trip to Spain, YongQin professes China's new ally in the West [traditionally, the Ottomans were favored by China as a non-Western Western power; but YongQin's favor with the Muslims fell out in the war in Afghanistan]. (how Spain reacts to this...)

sounds like you have an ally in Spain

1902 - WaiMa hires a horse trainer and instructor from Mongolia to teach ZhengTzi to ride a horse and learn how to perform well on the steed, in the manner of Emperor Hao's early reign. She also hires a teacher from [country that seems most receptive to this idea] to teach him science, technology, and Western customs. Finally, she hires LiHongZhang to teach ZhengTzi on how to run the Chinese state in a wise, enlightened manner - to treat the people fairly, exercise good force, deal with the Western Powers in their imperialistic ambitions, and among things, China's history, especially of Emperor Hao's rise to power.

you can use Spain in the case of [country that seems most receptive to this idea] if you like...

1903 - War with [someone...anyone?] WaiMa goes out to secure support from [whomever] against [the said blah].

Spain can be used as [whomever]

---------------------

as you can see i really want China as an ally to Spain...

China - The Sino-Japanese War sounds like a good place for Britain to take Okinowa and Fukuoka; I picked the late 1850s for my seizure of those territories to provide a Perry-esque moment for Japan and to give us something to talk about, but 1911 works fine.

France - We might have settled in different pieces of land than we currently own; perhaps I win land in the Western US (Montana and Idaho) and lose Madras, a south Indian port ruled by England, in a mid-century war. The war could last from 1866 to 1868 and be waged over trade rights.

And Siam...nice history I'd be a little cautious about your exploits to reduce modernization, although I'd say that Saim would be a little far for China to handle...still, a war with Vietnam presses dangerously close to a war with China [unless I happen to be at war too ]

I was wondering if it was possible for an alliance to be formed between Siam and China?

i would like to be the Norway

eh, all right. I think that a trade of Madras for Montana is fair. And yes, a war makes sense - it could be over any little thing so trade rights for Indian goods or something like that works

Naktan - No map changes are needed that result from the proposed Indian War (1866-1868)

IAN - Denmark-Norway for you. Note that you control the Danish Virgin Islands (RL US Virgin Islands), Iceland, Greenland, Denmark, and Norway.

France - The Indian War occurs over the French colonial administration in India placing restrictions on trade from Madras. It's a restriction that was imposed roughly every seven years as a means of tweaking the British and was usually quietly ended within a week, but, in this case, Britain decides to turn it into a cause for war. Happens all the time.

i would like to invade the nation of sweeden so i declare war on sweeden

working out the changes... :)


[It just so happens that Spanish interests seemingly intersect with mine...considering the Philippines especially... :) I'd take an alliance with any nation willing to, within the interests of China, but Spain - as a means to support the elongation of Spainsh power in the Pacific and a means to propel Chinese power in the South China Sea area - is the most logical sense...]

IAN - Uh, no. First off, you'll need to create a formal declaration of war explaining why you want war (and not just because "I want their land" - something like, "The kingdom of Sweden has repeatedly shown itself to be an unfit government to rule its nation. [here you'd give examples; exaggerate, but don't lie.] Further, it has repeatedly insulted our kingdom [and here you'd give examples, again without lying but with exaggeration]. It has illegally occupied [and here you'd find some contested speck of land between your two nations], which is rightfully Danish. Finally, it has ignored our attempts at diplomacy [as a general rule, always go with diplomacy first]. Therefore, we hereby declare war upon the Kingdom of Sweden.") Second, we don't have a Sweden. And third, we haven't yet fully set up the IC thread, in which events occurring from 1930 on (the events we'll be rping) actually occur.
Please set up a history.
Oh, and read the stickies.

England, 1754-1930

1754: Tensions over the Ohio Valley with France lead to the Treaty of Richmond, negotiated between Ensign Jumonville, representing France, and Colonel Washington, representing Virginia, in which the Virginia Colony agreed to share rule with France in the Ohio Valley for a period of twenty years.
1760: King George II dies; King George III takes the throne.
1774: Boundaries from the Treaty of Richmond become permanent.
1776: Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations published, along with Thomas Jefferson's On Practical Applications of the Social Contract in Virginia AH; a treatise on how to secure Enlightenment ideals, with examples from the Virginia colony .
1782: Benjamin Franklin successfully organizes the First Constitutional Convention of America AH; forms a framework for a semi-autonomous government for the colonies, in order to better represent their interests in Parliament . Later that year, the Constitution of 1782, a series of laws that create a semi-autonomous Ireland, is passed.
1793: Lord McCartney of the United Kingdom visits China; the mission ends in a slight failure, although relations with China are not badly hurt.
1801: Colonists push into Kentucky and Tennessee.
1803: New Brunswick joins America.
1820: King George III dies; George IV takes the throne.
1815-1819: Burmese War - British forces, under Sir Arthur Wellesley, invade and conquer Burma.
1826: Treaty of Bangkok signed between Siam and the UK. Britain secures trade with Siam in exchange for a pledge not to colonize Siam.
1830: King George IV dies; William IV takes the throne.
1837: King William IV dies; Victoria takes the throne.
1839: Slavery abolished.
1839-1846: The Southern Rebellion occurs in the southern, slave-holding region of America. It is eventually subdued.
1842: Voting Reform Act - suffrage extended to all male Britons over the age of 21.
1845-1846: The Irish famine leads to large-scale migration to Canada and America, and, to a lesser extent, to Britain, India, France, Holland, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand.
1847-1856: Reconstruction in the American South - Britain revokes the autonomy of the rebellious states and forces them to grant the ex-slaves the right to vote, along with other civil rights. However, after Reconstruction ends, the South reverts to a racist society.
1850: Palmerston Mission rebuffed - Lord Palmerston visits Bangkok, but fails to convince King Rama III of Siam to grant extraterritoriality to British citizens.
1855: Charles Elliot, Ambassador to China, attempts and fails to negotiate extraterritoriality with Siam.
1856: Dongjing Conference - Prime Minister Palmerston visits Dongjing and secretly asks for support for a war with Japan
1857: London Conference - HRH Emperor HuangShuo of China visits London and discusses the plans for war with Japan
1858: Anglo-Japanese war - Japan is attacked after refusing to open trade. The Royal Navy, operating out of Chinese ports, defeats the Japanese; the Royal Marines seize the island of Okinowa and the city of Fukuoka. In the Treaty of Dongjing, in November of that year, these conquests are confirmed in perpetuity and Japan is required to open itself completely to foreign trade.
1858-1860: Sepoy Rebellion - the Sepoys of the British East India Company rebel over claims that their new cartridges, which they must bite into as part of the loading process for their new guns, contain grease made from pig and cow fat. The rebellion is eventually crushed, after two years, but only due to the deployment of British army forces. The BEIC is disbanded; India is transferred to be ruled by HM Queen Victoria.
1867: Canadian Constitution - Canada becomes semi-autonomous; Newfoundland refuses to sign.
1870-1890: Boer Wars - Britain and the Boers fight, off and on, throughout this period; Britain eventually wins the war.
1888-1889: Cuban War - Britain backs Cuban nationalist José Martí, who dies in December of 1888. The British take Tierra del Fuego, and, in the Treaty of Georgetown, Spain is obligated to remove tariffs on sugar going to the UK for a period of ten years.
1898-1901: Congolese War - the UK wins the French-held island of Ceylon, but loses northwestern Ohio.
1899: British Labour Party founded.
1900: Australia, South Africa, and New Zealand all become semi-autonomous nations.
1901: Queen Victoria dies; Edward VII takes the throne.
1906: Second Treaty of Bangkok - Formal diplomatic relations with Siam; Siamese-Malay, Siamese-Burmese, and Siamese-Vietnamese borders set down.
1910: King Edward VII dies; George V takes the throne.
1917: Representation of the People Act - extends suffrage to all Britons over the age of 21.
1922: British Liberal Party collapses after economic recession hits the UK.
1930: Tory Prime Minister Winston Churchill takes office.

(More to be added)

I'm sorry about the Japan war thingy...tell me if 1911 is more certain the war that you will accept, since I'm now crafting my history to accommodate it [ i.e. rather than an actual war over trade rights, China will persuade Japan to stop pirate activities against British merchant ships operating in the Eastern Pacific...it succeeds, but the war later on is perhaps China's imperialism against Japan, for failing to adhere to modernization, up to and including trade restrictions on British imports :) tell me what you think of that...]

Naktan - That works well; I'll update the 1856-58 entries accordingly, tomorrow, based on what you write.

I have just updated it all to the most recent...tell me what you think of it...and please resolve things that I asked for...if you've got things that I need to resolve, tell me as well...

[on that note, where is your history, Spain? I can't find it, even though I know you have one somewhere...]

History updated: link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10418293&postcount=14)

I haven't yet included the Indian war, and won't until it is confirmed with France.

[on that note, where is your history, Spain? I can't find it, even though I know you have one somewhere...]

i still haven't posted a fully made history. i have a paragraph somewhere on here that says some stuff but thats about it...

then I will confirm it, and since no real change in territory is taking place, you can make up the details as you want

Updated, again! Link is found here. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10418293&postcount=14)

for ease of review, the history is set here :) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10420190&postcount=17)

BTW click the smile above

1824 - After an intense battle near Wuhan, the Shi forces regain the upperhand, with a massive arsenal of artillery from Austria and England (this assuming that the two sides agree to formalize relations); the Imperial Army lays siege to Beijing, after firm advice from all of the military commanders on the best way to end the war.

-I agree to formalize relations


1856 - On the 36th anniversary of the Shi Dynasty, HuangShuo sends out invitations to all the nations with which he formally recognizes: UK, Spain [Vietnam, Korea, Japan, France, UK, Spain, Austria, Russia, Sweden, Ottomans, Portugal, Denmark, Bavaria, Genoa, Venice, Modena, Sardinia, Siam, Mughals, Persia, and Ethiopia] (how many come and how does it go?). During the celebrations, HuangShuo introduces the world politics to his son, and furthermore introduces the world to the modernizing China, to which the Western powers should take into regard, as technologically, China is near their equal in many matters. (From 1776 to 1856 [really 1820-1856], China modernizes considerably rapidly and to minimal instability crises). The British legation attempts to convince HuangShuo to attack Japan, considering the rebellious nature of the Japanese pirates around the Tsushima Straits; HuangShuo decides to decline for the moment.

-An Austrian representative is there for the celebrations as a show of support for HuangShuo and his policies.


1911 - ZhengTzi visits Rome, and meets with the Pope. WaiMa concludes a treaty with the Papal States, offering Rome authority over Catholics in China, as long as the authority from Rome does not interfere with China's authority with its citizens [a major move by WaiMa to improve relations with the Catholics in Spain and Austria]. The Chinese navy blockades Kyoto and Nagoya, in response to Japan's increasing unwillingness to cooperate with China. Taking the precedence fom Vietnam, Japan ignores the calls to conform, leading to the Sino-Japanese War. WaiMa receives the support of Vietnam [surprisingly], Korea, and Siam (maybe if Siam accepts) against the single power in Japan. Later, WaiMa wins the support of the British navy to attack Japan, noting their previous attempts to attack Japan with China's consent.

-Austria is both impressed and pleased by the actions taken by China in allowing catholicism to peacefully exist

1920 - ZhengTzi becomes Emperor peacefully, as WaiMa semi-formally retires to a life of aged-motherly care for her son. ZhengTzi invites all the delegates from around the world to attend the 100th anniversary celebrations. In the 5th month, ZhengTzi visits London, Paris, Madrid, Vienna, Berlin, Moscow, and Constantinople in a good-will trip to all of the Western nations. When he returns, ZhengTzi initiates a massive reform policy to keep China's modernization in pace with the Western powers, if not better than them. He visits Hanoi, Seoul, Bangkok, and Kyoto in good-will trips to the Asian nations, to affirm China's role as a "fatherly" figure to guide the Asian states to autonomy from the Imperialism of the Western nations.

1922 - ZhengTzi attends the New Year's celebrations in Vienna, to help improve already good relations with Austria. ZhengTzi marries Liu NianMei. WaiMa goes on a tour of China, to review the plight of the people. She returns to Yajing and explains the necessiy to improve working conditions for the Chinese people. Rebellion in Vietnam; ZhengTzi sends a small expedition to help control the riots and revolts.

-Soon after this visit Austria sends a delegation to China in order to secure an alliance. The delegation notes past good relations and the need to control the ambitions of France.(do you accept?)

1924 - After an assassination attempt by Muslim nationals, ZhengTzi begins a forceful policy in controlling the Muslim population while realizing that their dissent resulted from poor living standards and relations with the Muslim world. In an attempt to ameliorate the religious tensions in China, he orders the construction of a mosque in Wushi, the capital of Sinkiang; visits Cairo and Makkah, pledging tolerance of Muslim practices in China; and opens trade dialogues with the Mughals and the Afghans. After his tour in Ottoman Arabia, ZhengTzi visited Vienna and Paris.

1929 - ZhengTzi opens the city of Wushi to an international exposition, having completed the railroad from Wushi to Yajing and to Beijing; the architects in the mosque make it a model of Islamic construction outside the Ottoman Empire, and the numerouus technological advances made in China are being displayed for the world to marvel. In all, [all nations wanting to attend the Wushi Expo] arrived in Wushi to acknowledge China's growing role as a modern, industrialized, civil, and powerful state in the century.

-In the advent that China accepted the previous request to become allies with Austria, the Austrian Emperor visits China to meet with ZhengTzi, in his first visit to Asia, and discusses China's role in protecting Catholics in the orient and preventing the expansion of France's influence in the region. If the alliance was not accepted, Austria attends and discusses similiar topics(the emperor doesnt attend)

Random Additions:
~1850-1875: Austria sends an envoy to Russia inorder to conclude a treaty against the Ottoman Turks, regarding Christian lands under Muslim oppression. Pending acceptance, Austria declares war against the Turks and gains additional lands in the Balkans by war's end.
~1875-1900:Austria tries to maintain good relations with Russia despite Russian imperialistic ambitions towards europe. Willing to participate in wars against the Turks and encourages russia to set it's ambitions towards the east- especially Persia, Afghanistan and the Caucasus region.
~1900-1930:Tensions rise between France and Austria regarding unification of the various germanic states east of the rhine. Austria cites it's role as a leading germanic power in the region and rightful claims over the region.

-I agree to formalize relations

yay!

-An Austrian representative is there for the celebrations as a show of support for HuangShuo and his policies.

double yay!

-Austria is both impressed and pleased by the actions taken by China in allowing catholicism to peacefully exist

triple yay!

-Soon after this visit Austria sends a delegation to China in order to secure an alliance. The delegation notes past good relations and the need to control the ambitions of France.(do you accept?)

In addition to a Spanish alliance, why not? All the better! [although China maintains the right to pursue friendly relations with all European nations, and likewise make alliances as needed. If Austria cannot accept this, perhaps simply relations of good faith in the other? China wants to maintain a powerful presence in Asia, so French [let alone anyone else's] prospects there are highly regarded in suspicion and distrust. Seeing as Austria's only colonyy resides on the Eastern coast of Africa, it wouldn't seem bad to offer an alliance of sorts. In end, we would accept it if Austria if Austria is willing to accept its ally.

And QUADRUPLE YAY!

-In the advent that China accepted the previous request to become allies with Austria, the Austrian Emperor visits China to meet with ZhengTzi, in his first visit to Asia, and discusses China's role in protecting Catholics in the orient and preventing the expansion of France's influence in the region. If the alliance was not accepted, Austria attends and discusses similiar topics(the emperor doesnt attend)

[again, pending Austria's decision and permittance to have an alliance with a nation that is willing to ally with France...]

China's role in protecting Catholics is very much regarded as a obligation to the people of China, in choosing their religion [especially after 1924]. He values the welfare of his people, as he is sanctioned the Mandate of Heaven to rule in eternal wisdom and beneficence. If the alliance is granted, Emperor ZhengTzi welcomes Emperor [Franz II?] to the Imperial Palace on the Xi River to attend a concert, in the manner as he experienced in Vienna 1922. If the Austrian legation arrives in 1929, the Emperor accompanies the legation to Wushi in Sinkiang to review China's marvels in technology and society. Furthermore, he would initiate the construction of a cathedral, dedicated to the current pope [whoever that turns out to be...] in GuangZhou [regardless of the year - just tell me so I can account for it]. In all, China is pleased with the allies in Spain and (potentially) Austria.

considering the progression of future copies, I may have to remake the world because for some reason, my thing is getting more distorted every time I look at it...

after all, i want to be able to edit it at time when a war changes the border...

that said, REMAKE does not equal REDO. the borders will remain as close as I can make them, so you wont havev to worry about that stuff...

that said, i'll continue to use the old map until a war changes the borders...no point in wasting info...

I'll make my own link in a little bit

yay!



double yay!



triple yay!



In addition to a Spanish alliance, why not? All the better! [although China maintains the right to pursue friendly relations with all European nations, and likewise make alliances as needed. If Austria cannot accept this, perhaps simply relations of good faith in the other? China wants to maintain a powerful presence in Asia, so French [let alone anyone else's] prospects there are highly regarded in suspicion and distrust. Seeing as Austria's only colonyy resides on the Eastern coast of Africa, it wouldn't seem bad to offer an alliance of sorts. In end, we would accept it if Austria if Austria is willing to accept its ally.

And QUADRUPLE YAY!



[again, pending Austria's decision and permittance to have an alliance with a nation that is willing to ally with France...]

China's role in protecting Catholics is very much regarded as a obligation to the people of China, in choosing their religion [especially after 1924]. He values the welfare of his people, as he is sanctioned the Mandate of Heaven to rule in eternal wisdom and beneficence. If the alliance is granted, Emperor ZhengTzi welcomes Emperor [Franz II?] to the Imperial Palace on the Xi River to attend a concert, in the manner as he experienced in Vienna 1922. If the Austrian legation arrives in 1929, the Emperor accompanies the legation to Wushi in Sinkiang to review China's marvels in technology and society. Furthermore, he would initiate the construction of a cathedral, dedicated to the current pope [whoever that turns out to be...] in GuangZhou [regardless of the year - just tell me so I can account for it]. In all, China is pleased with the allies in Spain and (potentially) Austria.

Consider the alliance cemented, I suppose the Emperor would be Franz II. It would be proper to build a cathedral on the 5th aniversery of the Pope Pius XI's (historically 1922-1939) election, or pick a good number(one considered good luck in china, or elsewhere).

Consider the alliance cemented, I suppose the Emperor would be Franz II. It would be proper to build a cathedral on the 5th aniversery of the Pope Pius XI's (historically 1922-1939) election, or pick a good number(one considered good luck in china, or elsewhere).

I would assume that Austria would visit in 1927, so we can do that...

I found a really nice map...works better than the old one, is a lot neater, and is easier to manage.

there's fewer islands, but the general idea gets across about territorial holdings...

I'm replacing it; tell me which one is better [please say this one works...] http://s15.invisionfree.com/Naktan_Industries/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=191043

Note on new policy:

I'm not putting in capitals of countries that have no sponsors...that said, if they remain that way, they're open to conquest during RP...although I would encourage fellow nations to "respect" the "sovereignty" of the nations, and thus create opposition to the invasions, so that the world doesn't become a grab box...of course, all the policy goes out to Spain, who created this thread, but to me, it only makes sense that we do it this way...

but the policy on capitals stands...and nations without owners and without extra territories beyond their borders [or really unnoticeable ones] will not be colored in...and the important countries have their capitals and their colors as it would be for their country...

critique!!!

and I've updated my profile (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10420190&postcount=17)too...

Wow. Keep the new map.

like the new map and the "sovereignty" idea

The soverignity concept is good; NPC nations should not just be invaded willy-nilly.

anyone got resolutions to the histories? or am I just not seeing them?

what kind of resolutions were you looking for?

We need resolutions?:confused:

However, a more important question is, what is a resolution? and what do we resolve about?

1823 - Despite being in the midst of war, the Emperor HuangShuo sends out emmissaries to the UK, France, Spain, Austria, and Russia to gain official recognition and attain military supplies. The Emperor send an armistice plea to the Empress Dowager, who ignores it, assuming that she is winning the war. The Spanish king offers a trade agreement and minor agreement on the recognition of the Shi claim to China. The Austrian Emperor offered military supplies, drill instructors, and important trade and recognition agreements... All of these actions helped to confide the trust of the Shi Emperor against the Qing.

1833 - HuangShuo invites delegates from the UK and France to settle something in Dongjing [perhaps something about India...]. Later, HuangShuo initiates a large reform to increase the industrial productivity of China, seeing as his country lags behind the Western powers in that field.

1850 - HuangShuo, noting with some disdain that Portugal maintains a large presence in Macau, not too far from Dongjing, sends a request to Portugal in regards to the purchase back of the territory...(pending if Portugal comes, how they would react...if Spain accepts the mutual defense of the South China Sea idea, the Portuguese might be inclined to accept the payment deal)...HuangShuo leads the fleet out for an exercise in the Tsuchima Straits.

1856 - On the 36th anniversary of the Shi Dynasty, HuangShuo sends out invitations to all the nations with which he formally recognizes: UK, Spain, Austria [Vietnam, Korea, Japan, France, UK, Spain, Austria, Russia, Sweden, Ottomans, Portugal, Denmark, Bavaria, Genoa, Venice, Modena, Sardinia, Siam, Mughals, Persia, and Ethiopia] (how many come and how does it go?). During the celebrations, HuangShuo introduces the world politics to his son, and furthermore introduces the world to the modernizing China, to which the Western powers should take into regard, as technologically, China is near their equal in many matters. (From 1776 to 1856 [really 1820-1856], China modernizes considerably rapidly and to minimal instability crises). Many of the present legations offers words of great encouragement and humility to the vast developments and integration that the Shi Dynasty has accomplished in its history, to which HuangShuo offers the same remarks to those friendly nation. During the trip, the British legation attempts to convince HuangShuo to attack Japan, considering the rebellious nature of the Japanese pirates around the Tsushima Straits; HuangShuo decides to decline for the moment.

1857 - YongQin visits London and Paris with the Imperial mission to the UK and France. Again, the British pressed YongQin for a war with Japan, but YongQin offered a compromise, promising that China would attack Japan with the UK if the pirates did not cease their activities. HuangShuo initiates the last of his most radical reforms - the emancipation of the peasants [in a bid to finally break the back of the nobles after years of compliance]. With a non-peasant class, the population of the urban centers grows dramatically, fueling socialist fervors.

1868 - YongQin's Spanish wife bears a son, named XiZhou. YongQin sends a delegation to Bangkok to negotiate a stronger, formal relationship with Siam [in the interest to include Siam within the sphere of protectionism from Western Powers]. Judging that Siam was farther than Vietnam and thus would be harder to control directly, YongQin liberalized his offers to Siam and conceded Siam's genuine autonomy [that is, they are free to do as they like within Asian spheres], while hoping to gain trade rights in Siam in general (tell me what you think of this Siam...this could be a precursor to a formal state of alliance with Siam, to better protect the country from the British and French imperialist desires there).

1872 - YongQin declares war on the Mughal Empire, in rage over some issues on the treatment of Muslims in his country. He sends an emissary to the UK to propose an alliance against the Mughals.

1903 - War with [someone...anyone?]. WaiMa goes out to secure support from Spain [whomever] against [the said blah].

1905 - War ends [how?...].

1911 - ZhengTzi visits Rome, and meets with the Pope. WaiMa concludes a treaty with the Papal States, offering Rome authority over Catholics in China, as long as the authority from Rome does not interfere with China's authority with its citizens [a major move by WaiMa to improve relations with the Catholics in Spain and Austria]. The Chinese navy blockades Kyoto and Nagoya, in response to Japan's increasing unwillingness to cooperate with China. Taking the precedence fom Vietnam, Japan ignores the calls to conform, leading to the Sino-Japanese War. WaiMa receives the support of Vietnam [surprisingly], Korea, and Siam (maybe if Siam accepts) against the single power in Japan. Later, WaiMa wins the support of the British navy to attack Japan, noting their previous attempts to attack Japan with China's consent.

1912 - The Japanese attempt to attack Sakhalin Island, but the combined Chinese and Siamese [again, pending their support] navy crushes the invasion fleet at the Straits of Sendoku. The Chinese navy seizes Japanese islands near Taiwan, while Britain seizes Okinawa. The Chinese and Korean army attack Shikoku via the Tsushima Straits.

1913 - With meditation from [whoever isn't fighting], China and Japan conclude peace, on the terms that Japan complies with the Chinese calls to modernize, China receives its fair share of territory, Britain receives its fair share of territory [Okinawa and the like], and reparations of 10mil yuan are paid to each of the participating countries [China, Vietnam, Korea, Siam, and UK]. At home, WaiMa is hailed as a national hero.

1923 - ZhengTzi pledges a grand sum of 500mil yuan to solve the problem of infrastructure inadequacies in China, hoping to connect China to all parts of the country. With improved transportation to the autonomous provinces in the west and the ever-present dissentors in the north, ZhengTzi wants a better way to manage his affairs in travelling from one part of the country to another. ZhengTzi sends a mission to Moscow to develop cooperation with Russia in maintaining security and stability on the Russia-China border, extending some thousands of kilometers from Afghanistan to the Amur River (pending Russia's response).

1929 - ZhengTzi opens the city of Wushi to an international exposition, having completed the railroad from Wushi to Yajing and to Beijing; the architects in the mosque make it a model of Islamic construction outside the Ottoman Empire, and the numerouus technological advances made in China are being displayed for the world to marvel. In all, [all nations wanting to attend the Wushi Expo] arrived in Wushi to acknowledge China's growing role as a modern, industrialized, civil, and powerful state in the century.

It would be nice if all of these could be resolved...

1856 - On the 36th anniversary of the Shi Dynasty, HuangShuo sends out invitations to all the nations with which he formally recognizes: UK, Spain, Austria [Vietnam, Korea, Japan, France, UK, Spain, Austria, Russia, Sweden, Ottomans, Portugal, Denmark, Bavaria, Genoa, Venice, Modena, Sardinia, Siam, Mughals, Persia, and Ethiopia] (how many come and how does it go?). During the celebrations, HuangShuo introduces the world politics to his son, and furthermore introduces the world to the modernizing China, to which the Western powers should take into regard, as technologically, China is near their equal in many matters. (From 1776 to 1856 [really 1820-1856], China modernizes considerably rapidly and to minimal instability crises). Many of the present legations offers words of great encouragement and humility to the vast developments and integration that the Shi Dynasty has accomplished in its history, to which HuangShuo offers the same remarks to those friendly nation. During the trip, the British legation attempts to convince HuangShuo to attack Japan, considering the rebellious nature of the Japanese pirates around the Tsushima Straits; HuangShuo decides to decline for the moment.

Well, the Siamese would attend and do its best to gain an alliance with China, or if nothing else a mutual defense agreement.

Wushi, 1929 - We'll attend.

Dongjing, 1833 - Perhaps France and the UK will settle the specific boundary between their two nations in India at this conference?

Well, the Siamese would attend and do its best to gain an alliance with China, or if nothing else a mutual defense agreement.

What about this?

1868 - YongQin's Spanish wife bears a son, named XiZhou. YongQin sends a delegation to Bangkok to negotiate a stronger, formal relationship with Siam [in the interest to include Siam within the sphere of protectionism from Western Powers]. Judging that Siam was farther than Vietnam and thus would be harder to control directly, YongQin liberalized his offers to Siam and conceded Siam's genuine autonomy [that is, they are free to do as they like within Asian

spheres], while hoping to gain trade rights in Siam in general.

[I've drafted out the 1856 alliance deal...but I still want to visit Bangkok in 1868; what do you want to talk about?]

Wushi, 1929 - We'll attend.

Dongjing, 1833 - Perhaps France and the UK will settle the specific boundary between their two nations in India at this conference?

done... :)

Come check out this site [no history at all]

CHINA - [The Long Eighteenth Century RP] (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10473644#post10473644)

What about this?

1868 - YongQin's Spanish wife bears a son, named XiZhou. YongQin sends a delegation to Bangkok to negotiate a stronger, formal relationship with Siam [in the interest to include Siam within the sphere of protectionism from Western Powers]. Judging that Siam was farther than Vietnam and thus would be harder to control directly, YongQin liberalized his offers to Siam and conceded Siam's genuine autonomy [that is, they are free to do as they like within Asian

spheres], while hoping to gain trade rights in Siam in general.

[I've drafted out the 1856 alliance deal...but I still want to visit Bangkok in 1868; what do you want to talk about?]

Well. I think the first thing the Siamese would want to talk about is military support, i.e. how much do we sen to you when you are in trouble, how much do you send to us when we are in trouble. Secondly would be trade, Siam produces large quatities of food, (and is currently referred to in some agricultural circles as the breadbasket of the east.) how much you want to buy and at what price. Also another thing in trade would be free trade between our borders (No import/export taxes between us).

Also in 1868 you would be giving your condolences on King Mongkut's death and congratulating King Chulalongkorn about ascending the throne. Since, he is only 15 at the time you would be making your deals through the regeant Chao Phraya.

Also the name for my King is Niran. OOC: I made it short because I didn't feelng like typing out a long name every time

Well. I think the first thing the Siamese would want to talk about is military support, i.e. how much do we sen to you when you are in trouble, how much do you send to us when we are in trouble. Secondly would be trade, Siam produces large quatities of food, (and is currently referred to in some agricultural circles as the breadbasket of the east.) how much you want to buy and at what price. Also another thing in trade would be free trade between our borders (No import/export taxes between us).

Also in 1868 you would be giving your condolences on King Mongkut's death and congratulating King Chulalongkorn about ascending the throne. Since, he is only 15 at the time you would be making your deals through the regeant Chao Phraya.

Also the name for my King is Niran. OOC: I made it short because I didn't feelng like typing out a long name every time


Duly affirmed...although I might comment that the HuangHe valley is considerably large enough to support the entire population of China [as it is today, despite the lack of technological advances in the general Chinese agricultural industry]. We'll just settle on trade rights and free trade.

Hey Yall!!!

We Need The Ottoman Empire, Portugal, And The Netherlands!!!

Please Join If This Thread Seems INTERESTING At All!!!

and speaking of NPCs...

would anyone be in favor of getting to play as extra countries? [as in you control the policies of two independent nations - which is reasonable as you don't intertwine the two]

Give the people out there a little time. Try TGing people you rp with.

Give the people out there a little time. Try TGing people you rp with.

i havent been on in over a year...but ill give it a shot...

A history of the English people, revised (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10418293&postcount=14)

Naktan - please transfer Tierra del Fuego from Spain to the UK; Spain has given permission for this trade.

Spain - Any way we could have bought the Galapagos Islands off of you?

A history of the English people, revised (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10418293&postcount=14)

Naktan - please transfer Tierra del Fuego from Spain to the UK; Spain has given permission for this trade.

Spain - Any way we could have bought the Galapagos Islands off of you?

Did that... unles tierra del fuego isn't that island at the tip of South America...

Thanks.

did poland exist in 1930? I thought it came back into being after a long period of not existing after WWII.

Ryukyu-Doukaku - Poland exists here because it was not weakened enough by the Prussians, Austrians, and Russians; in RL, it died due to those three powers. This rp is based on what might have happened if the Seven Years' War never happened,- which also means no American or French Revolutions, and therefore no drive for German or Italian unification, and therefore a rather different world. Want to join in?

did poland exist in 1930? I thought it came back into being after a long period of not existing after WWII.

FYI - you're thinking of WWI, which did not occur in this simulation because Prussia didn't become strong enough to partition the whole Poland between itself, Austria, and Russia. Poland still exists as a state, albeit weak and mostly ignored as a buffer state between Austria, Russia, and Prussia [still weak, but gaining strength through its various alliances with UK, France, and Russia...]

A history of the English people, revised (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10418293&postcount=14)

Naktan - please transfer Tierra del Fuego from Spain to the UK; Spain has given permission for this trade.

Spain - Any way we could have bought the Galapagos Islands off of you?

not the Galapagos islands no...

good history :)

What happened to Poland?

And where are Ottoman, Netherlands, and Portugal? We need you!!!

And please post your histories ASAP, so we can get on with the RPing...