NationStates Jolt Archive

"Then it is so."

An Imperial Guard messenger walked in and handed a note.

"The Heer is mobilized as we speak and will be entering Schleswig-Holstein on June 21. Scandinavian Troops have until then to leave. Any Scandinavians who wish to return to the SU will be given passage and recompensated. Any Scandinavian Soldiers in the area will be taken prisoner and returned to Scandinavia once the tensions ease."

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The Entire Reichswehr is mobilized and the Luftwaffe Reserve is pulled up. Landswehr units from the South are being mobilized and trained in Mountain tactics. The Imperial Guard is readied and the Ar-232s are fired up.

However, the Reichstag feels otherwise.

A condemnation of the warmongering Generals is passed and the Kaiser is ordered to halt operations. He refuses and is ordered under arrest. Chancellor Von Schuschnigg and Minister Bruning resign in protest.

An apology is sent to the Scandinavian government while the Landswehr is ordered down which it doesn't.

The next day riots break out in Hamburg, Berlin and across the Rhineland and at least some demonstrations are held in every other city. Police units are hit the hardest, but many join in. The riots, rather than looting, merely begin to attack government buildings, arresting many Reichstag appointed mayors.

That next night, during the Emergency Meeting, the Imperial Guard storms the Reichstag. The Kaiser orders all members of the Reichstag, as well as the Chancellor ,Cheif of Staff and the Minsters of Foreign Affairs and Domestic Affairs, to be placed under arrest. The Kaiser then declares the Empire to be under a State of Emergency and an Emergency Cabinet is declared. Chancellor Von Schuschnigg is returned to his position as is Domestic Minister Bruning. Ex-Chancellor Rommel is made Minister of Foreign Affairs and Ex-Luftwaffe Commander Albert Kesselring is made Chief of Staff. He is replaced by Generaloberst Manfred von Richtoven.

Civilian Governments are replaced with Generals and a loose Martial Law is declared. All residents of Scandic descent are being detained for examining.

A note is sent to Scandinavia reaffirming the German People's resolve. They will fight if comes the need.

Perhaps he is, and if so, then what? Scandanavia, like many nations here, has claimed to be a democracy. However, it has only acted as a democracy when it suits its own interests. While the residents of Stockholm and Oslo deserve the right to govern themselves, in Holstein and Arabia people do not, or so the Scandics claim.

In Lexington and Concord, two small American towns, a collection of local farmers and workers began a democratic revolt, demanding equal rights, because thei opinions were discounted. While this grew larger on its own, French support destroyed Britain's largest advantage, naval superiority, and was crucial to the sucess of the war. If Holstein needs foreign support to earn its freedom, then so be it.

Korea once again, urges calm, and urges the Scandanavian Union to let Schleswig-Holstein go. As it was, the plebescites spoke volumes.

The delegate then goes, "There is an American saying that goes well here. It says, shut your traps!"

The Korean delegate then gets angry phone calls from Kim Gu, asking him "Are you insane!?"

Parthini']
Germany, hearing the call of its people, gives the SU 1 month to leave Schleswig-Holstein or the Reichswehr shall do it for them.

Parthini']No, we are trying to provoke an action. We are demanding the land that is rightfully German by the right of Democracy which we all hold so dear.

The FNS delegate stands; Ernesto Boenke Betancourt. A Venezuelan born businessman, He had run an expansive conglomerate of corporations making him quite wealthy, but also a famous philanthropist. His father was a native born Venezuelan, and his mother the Daughter of a German immigrant. He was fluent in Spanish, Portugese, and German.

"It is in the Federation of South American nations interest to point out that should any fighting occur in these regions, history will not be kind to the German Government that spouts these exclamations of democracy. Democracy that has only truely existed in the German Nation briefly before turning to autocracy. We can only hope that German Jingonism ebbs before we're subject to yet another world war.

The Federation of South American nations in no-way doubts the moral strength, intelligence, and resolve of the German people, but surely the government that represents them does a poor job at doing such."

In Lexington and Concord, two small American towns, a collection of local farmers and workers began a democratic revolt, demanding equal rights, because thei opinions were discounted. While this grew larger on its own, French support destroyed Britain's largest advantage, naval superiority, and was crucial to the sucess of the war. If Holstein needs foreign support to earn its freedom, then so be it.

Then Sir, are you suggesting that if we are to find any seperatist groups in your country, of which there assuredly are such unscrupulous persons, that we should support them militarily in order to collapse your government in the name of freedom and democracy? What about the 49.9% of the population that does not want to switch over to another country? Are they to be subjected to your idea of tyranny of the majority?

On hearing of the German army coup and the detaining of Scandic citizens the Scandic rep immediately took to his feet.

"I do not care if you want to rip apart your own nation but you have no right to drag harmless tourists and bussinessmen off the streets and throw them in jail. We demand that all Scandic citizens that have been detained without cause be freed and given free passage into a neutral nation. Furthermore we would like to know if our embassy is safe? Or does the german army not recognize the status of diplomats?"

Turning to the Syrian delegate he said, "So this is the democracy you've allied yourself to and spoken so highly about."

Democracy that has only truely existed in the German Nation briefly before turning to autocracy.
"Our words have never been more true."

The Current Ambassador is sent home and replaced, temporarily, by a Staff Member in the Foreign Office, Joseph Goebbels.

He begins many long rants about German Superiority and demanding the return of Schleswig Holstein.

(I would type something but I feel it would really dilute the power of this psycho)

Well, as any nation does, we have separatist groups, but as a nation that has grown to encompass most of a continent, you are more an example of "tyranny of the majority", as you put it, than any country assembled here. Surely there are Bolivians, Venezuelans, Uruguayans, and others who do not want to live in the FNS. However, there is an option available to all citizens of free nations who dislike the nation they live in, immigration.

While a mass exodus across the border would bring the Holstinians (ooc: I highly doubt thats a word, but I needed to call them something) to the nation they would prefer to live in, they would likely lose much of their property. An ideal solution for the governments involved, but hardly for the people. While the same dilemma occurs if it is placed in German hands, it would be to a lesser scale, as the plebicide shows. However, perhaps the area could be divided, giving both sides some of the land and populace.

Parthini']The Current Ambassador is sent home and replaced, temporarily, by a Staff Member in the Foreign Office, Joseph Goebbels.

He begins many long rants about German Superiority and demanding the return of Schleswig Holstein.

(I would type something but I feel it would really dilute the power of this psycho)

OOC: Congrats, man. You just shot yourself in the foot.

IC:

Korea's Ambassador cups his hands around his ears, and begins humming Perry Como....

Ambassador Goebbels retorts:

"The Kaiser is only listening to the wishes of his people! Have you seen riots in Berlin or Hamburg since the Restoration? I have not. The only complaints I have heard are from Scandic Tycoons and their Latin lapdogs! The People wish to be reunited with their bretheren and the Reichswehr is merely fulfulling the demands of the people. Truely, was the Kaiser not legally voted as head of Germany?"

"As to the demands of the Scandic Union! We will hold your citizens captive until you release our lands back to us! Now you know how we feel!"

"Your diplomats are put under house arrest in the embassy and will be safe there until the issue blows over."

"Actually, the governmental system of the Federation of South American Nations was created with this in mind. You must understand that my nation is very beauracratic in its processes, but the benefits more than make up for these inadequacies. We are the only nation offering reparations to the former Spanish and French slaves in Guyana, Suriname, and French Guyana, while also repaying Native Americans for the damages caused by our industrialization. We take care of our poor and no one is left to die on a street.

Our democracy is firm and unbending. Every nation within the federation is entitled to the same freedoms and rights. Every nation has an equal say and vote in grand legislature, and every nation can veto a proposal in their own nation so long as there is a vote held in that territory with a clear majority and a discussion with the minority for a compromise.

The FNS government requests that there be a census of the population living in the disputed areas. Exact numbers as well as their heritage please.

"While Bueaucracy may be good fun and games for the Utopia of the FNS, the German people prefer to get things done, even if it may be "uncomfortable" for some.

"Thus while some may be counting the days until their reunification, the German people will not dally any further."

Parthini']Ambassador Goebbels retorts:

"The Kaiser is only listening to the wishes of his people! Have you seen riots in Berlin or Hamburg since the Restoration? I have not. The only complaints I have heard are from Scandic Tycoons and their Latin lapdogs! The People wish to be reunited with their bretheren and the Reichswehr is merely fulfulling the demands of the people. Truely, was the Kaiser not legally voted as head of Germany?"

"As to the demands of the Scandic Union! We will hold your citizens captive until you release our lands back to us! Now you know how we feel!"

"Your diplomats are put under house arrest in the embassy and will be safe there until the issue blows over."

"Latin lapdogs? What were the Germans doing, pray-tell during the latest world-war? I believe it was your government that said they were merely following their masters heels. So, you have two options then. You can admit to lapping at the heel of the Russians, or you can admit that you were responsible for the deaths of Millions.

And most autocracys begin with a legitimate government. Until you find weapons on these Scandic nationals, you cannot hold them under several resolutions that your government has indeed signed. Surely the faux-government is out of its mind to send a man like you to speak to the world. How truely embarrassing for the German people. We admire them for their endurance for idiotic governments."

ooc: I may call for Mr. Goebbels removal from the UN to be replaced by a more suitable proponent for the German people.

A wire sent fresh from Damascus arrives at the UN. The Syrian ambassador reads it aloud.

"In light of recent events in both Germany and the UN, Syria would like to back the South American call for a census of sorts to be taken. In addition, should this conflict become a war, Syria will not take military action unless directly threatened.

In addition, Syria would like to bring to light the growth of the PLO in Palestine. This terrorist group, and its anti-western stance, threaten many nations here. We would propose that leaders from the PLO, Syria, the United Republics, and other involved nations, including, but not limited to, Oman, Algeria, France, and Italy, all of whom have something on the line, meet in a neutral location, due to the PLO's criminal status in some nations, to allay fears of prosectution.

The PLO and the leaders of said nations are free to meet within the Federation of South American Nations, and are more than willing to provide protection for any members who require it.

Yasser Arafat, self-appointed leader of the PLO, agrees to attend the conference to discuss "freeing" Jerusalem from the "christian thieves".

OOC: Arafat doesn't actually have control over the PLO. The PLO is actually more of a loose group of multiple groups that all want Jerusalem back under muslim control. In other words, he could negotiate a deal but it doesn't mean the PLO will hold up his side of the deal.

Nigeria indicates that it will stand behind it's ally, Germany, as they believe them to be in the right.

The US urges calm and further discussions. Although the Scandic Union is bound to respect the UN resolution regarding the plebescites and should respect the results of those elections, Germany is clearly in the wrong as well for issuing an ultimatum.

In light of that, further discussions are clearly warranted as the people of both nations will lose in a war.

The US urges calm and further discussions. Although the Scandic Union is bound to respect the UN resolution regarding the plebescites and should respect the results of those elections, Germany is clearly in the wrong as well for issuing an ultimatum.

In light of that, further discussions are clearly warranted as the people of both nations will lose in a war.

The Australian delegate strongly supports the US position on the issue and reiterates the call for sanity

Pakistan also agrees with the American statement.

Secretly, however, he sends a coded message back to Agra telling the government to start mobilizing the armed forces. Although they cannot actually attack Germany or the SU from the Indian Subcontinent, they can still make a show of force. He also urges that police be put on alert, so that at the outbreak of war all Scandic and/or German citizens in the country can be aprehended (and then sent back to their country of origin) and their property seized for the Pakistani government. This is so that Pakistan can secure its neutrality, and although normally Pakistan would support the Scandic Union with arms, Pakistan is in no position to fight a World War after the civil war just a few years ago.

Nigeria urges Germany to consider the consequences of a war with Scandinavia and possibly other nations. Attempt to find a solution through the UN.

Syria's position is similar to the American stance. Scandanavia was clearly in the wrong when they ignored the UN resolution, although German actions since have only made the situation worse. If both sides will calm down their rhetoric and listen to the will of the people, perhaps an agreement could be made.

While the German people as a whole may want Holstein returned, and the Scandics may want to keep it, do they want it enough to risk a full war? I doubt citizens of Vienna or Trondheim are willing to risk the horrors of another world war over such a small scrap of land.

The Kaiser, after hearing word of the ramblings and outrageous thoughts of the new UN Ambassador heads to Dublin to deal with the situation personally.

Ambassador Goebbels is seen with the Kaiser. Goebbles then flys back to Germany and is immediately placed under arrest.

The Kaiser then takes the position of UN Ambassador. He urges the UN to realize that the Reichstag is not disassembled, merely temporarily suspended, by Imperial Decree.

He also informs Scandinavia that the citizens being held are no longer needed, and he will accept the funds being spent by several nations to send them back to Denmark.

However, he stresses the urgency of Scandinavia's necessity to pull out of Schleswig-Holstein before he is forced to act.

He also reminds the UN that the Reichstag will be reanimated as soon as the situation cools down substantially.

The Chinese delegate waited for his turn, listening to all the bickering, shouting, and screaming between the various delegates regarding the plebiscite.

The Chinese delegate, the former Prime Minister, Song Jiaoren, decided he has had enough.

He slammed his palms on the table loud enough to make everybody present jump and shatter the capachony of arguement. Song spoke in not an angry voice, but an icy one.

"Are we so eager to start killing each other over the result of the plebisicte?

The fact of the matter is that the plebisicite is a democratic process, a tenet of the governmental system we have fought and died for in the global wars. Did millions die fighting for it, so that we can sit here and reject democracy?

The people of Schleswig-Holstein have chosen to re-join Germany, yet we are looking at a possible fourth global war over this issue."

Song's voice began to thunder.

"HAVE WE NOT LEARNED FROM OUR MISTAKES IN THE PAST GLOBAL WAR? HOW MANY MILLIONS WILL HAVE TO DIE ALL OVER AGAIN IN A POSSIBLE FOURTH GLOBAL WAR OVER THIS ISSUE?"

Song calmed down and re-took his seat, with an angry look still evident on his face.

The Kaiser spoke up.

"No one need die, if Scandinavia will merely listen to the mandates of the United Nations, which they fought for. The world, and people, have spoken and Justice will be done, one way or another."

"Now, I am willing to discuss the matter with Scandinavia, but the only reaction any single nation here has recieved is one of stubbornness and disrespect. If the Scandinavians would show any sign of willingness to return Schleswig-Holstein, then Germany would be more willing to back down. Until then, Germany will remain at the ready."

"How can you expect Scandinavia to discuss the matter with an unstable, warmongering goernment of military officers? If the rightfull, democratically elected government of Germany is restored and those members of the coup thrown in jail and taken out of power than Scandinavia will come to the table."

Syria petitions the assembly (or the security council, whichever one's jurisdiction this is under) to order any Scandic or German peacekeeping troops in Jerusalem removed, to prevent the conflict from flaring up there.

While input would be needed from the United Republics, we believe it would be better if these troops are not replaced by other peacekeeping forces.

In addition, we believe the PLO talks, to be held in (Bogota?) should be televised, and shoul be scheduled to begin this summer.

Syria petitions the assembly (or the security council, whichever one's jurisdiction this is under) to order any Scandic or German peacekeeping troops in Jerusalem removed, to prevent the conflict from flaring up there.

While input would be needed from the United Republics, we believe it would be better if these troops are not replaced by other peacekeeping forces.

In addition, we believe the PLO talks, to be held in (Bogota?) should be televised, and shoul be scheduled to begin this summer.

China seconds the Syrian proposal regarding withdrawal of German and Syrian peacekeeping troops, and the PLO talks.

China would be more than happy to assume the mantle of peacekeeping troops in Jerusalem, as we are as neutral as a nation could possibly be in such an conflict. We have been "perfect" neutral during the entire Arabian war, and the same neutrality can be applied to Jerusalem peacekeeping.

"How can you expect Scandinavia to discuss the matter with an unstable, warmongering goernment of military officers? If the rightfull, democratically elected government of Germany is restored and those members of the coup thrown in jail and taken out of power than Scandinavia will come to the table."

The Government continues to be run, rightfully, by the Kaiser, who, by laws and a democratic election held by the people of Germany, was nearly overthrown by the so called rightful "democratic" government. The Military continues to be run by said Kaiser who commands complete control over the Military and Government exactly as the President of the United States. Do you call them an autocracy? The only difference between the two governments is that the Kaiser is elected for life, a mere preference of the German people. Just as being a part of Germany is a preference for the people of Schleswig-Holstein.

If Scandinavia is unwilling to discuss the situation, then they clearly are the ones who want war. Peace is not a choice if Schleswig-Holstein is not returned to the German Empire.

May I also remind you that the Reichstag will be reanimated once the current situation is drastically cooled down, which will only happen if Scandinavia will hand over Schleswig-Holstein. May I also remind you, that the Kaiser is merely using his power to temporarily declare Germany in a state of Emergency and has suspended the powers of the Reichstag.

If Germany was as unstable and warmongering as you claim, why have we been willing to go to the tables to discuss the matter peacefully, as well as release all of the Scandic spies held, recompensated, with no questions asked? Scandinavia is merely being obstinate so that it can take advantage of the situation to continue to cause trouble in the Middle East and elsewhere.

Back in Germany...

The Chief of Staff suddenly realises that he has to do the entire national budget for the German Empire, something that was done by the Reichstag so recently. He begins discussions with the other Generals and the Kaiser and they agree that something must be done, since they know next to nothing about running a country.

The next day, the Kaiser announces that the Reichstag will be reassembled. However, most of its powers are still held by the Kaiser. The Reichstag's duty, now, is to create the National Budget. They are informed that once the situation cools down with Scandinavia that full powers will be restored, albeit, with a few changes which will be discussed at a further time.

The SU will only negotiate with the rightfull government, we will not participate in this bickering and name calling.

The SU will only negotiate with the rightfull government, we will not participate in this bickering and name calling.

The Kaiser reminds the Scandinvians that the Kaiser IS the rightful government by way of God and the German people, just as Schleswig-Holstein should be a part of Germany by way of God and the German people. He also informs the UN Body that the Reichstag has been reanimated with limited responsibilities. How many excuses can the SU make, the Kaiser asks?

A note is also sent from the Reichstag begging the SU to begin negotiations with the Kaiser. Until Schleswig-Holstein is returned to Germany, they say, they will only remain a minor part of the running of the country, merely discussing the budget.

The Pakistani delegate politely asks the German Delegate to refrain from referring to himself as "the rightful government by the way of God", stating that wars have been started over those claiming to be rulers due to the will of God.

The Pakistani delegate then goes on to say that "Pakistan will not support the German claims to Schleswig-Holstein until the Kaiser becomes nothing more than a figurehead, and the Reichstag is given its full powers back."

OOC: Can I assume correctly that at least a sizeable amount of Germans are getting a bit weary of the Kaisers, ah, eccentricities? Claiming that he is ruler by the will of God, trouncing German democracy and then half-assedly trying to restore it somewhat due to international pressure, and then basically begging for war with the Scandic Union (but not following up on his threats, since It's been about a year since the Kaiser claimed that unless the SU left Schleswig-Hostein, the German army would make them leave). I understand he still has alot of popular support, but is it waning in any way? I don't think the Germans are any more willing to start a fourth World War, than any other nation (especially since they started the other 3 in some way or another).

Why should the Kaiser have his power limited? Perhaps we should restrict the power of the American president as a preventative measure as well, or any other leader Pakistan disagrees with. Many nations favor a strong exectuive branch to prevent a legislature from overstepping its powers. Checks and balances should not be destroyed so lightly.

Why should the Kaiser have his power limited? Perhaps we should restrict the power of the American president as a preventative measure as well, or any other leader Pakistan disagrees with. Many nations favor a strong exectuive branch to prevent a legislature from overstepping its powers. Checks and balances should not be destroyed so lightly.

The Kaiser is President-for-life, a term commonly applied to dictators. He has the power to throw away democracy for his egoistic ambitions. Can the President of the United States halt democracy so that it can try and seize land unlawfully from Canada? The Kaiser has too much power for a Monarch; this is the day and age of democracy, and the age of the archaic Monarch is over. Even the worlds most powerful monarchy, that of Great Britain, is little more than a figurehead. The Real Power lies in the Prime Minister, Cabinet, and the Parliament.

The Kaiser is trying to start another Great War, and he has prevented the German People from stopping him by destroying democracy, thus defeating the very reason why he claims that Schleswig-Holstein is German land. If Germany were a full-fledged democracy, and these were talks between one democratically elected legislature and another, then Pakistan would have no problems with the German claims. However, the Kaiser has used this issue to give him the powers that Wilhelm II had. Therefore, we hereby announce our backing of the Scandic Union on this issue, unless the Kaiser abdicates and hands over all of his powers to the Reichstag, and Germany tries to solve this issue as a civilized nation, not as the war-mongers that started the last 3 Great Wars.

Parthini']The Kaiser reminds the Scandinvians that the Kaiser IS the rightful government by way of God and the German people, just as Schleswig-Holstein should be a part of Germany by way of God and the German people. He also informs the UN Body that the Reichstag has been reanimated with limited responsibilities. How many excuses can the SU make, the Kaiser asks?

A note is also sent from the Reichstag begging the SU to begin negotiations with the Kaiser. Until Schleswig-Holstein is returned to Germany, they say, they will only remain a minor part of the running of the country, merely discussing the budget.

By the way of God? With all of Germanies "success" this past century you could of fooled me with who has God's backing. Do not bring religion into this earthly debate, which includes many non Christians.

But back on topic, if you want Holstein then we shall have to compromise, and yes it will only be Holstein. Schleswig always has been Danish, and is linked to the Danish crown, and so it will remain. Holstein will be given to Germany if the leaders of the coup are thrown in jail, preferably a U.N. sponsered jail, Holstein is to remain demilitarized and Germany is to abandon its nuclear program and dismantle all work completed on it thusfar.

OOC: TLS, if you would pay more attention, we made it May, 1 and a day equals one week, a few days ago. So, it's about May 20th. So I have not "gone back on my threats."

And yes, some Germans may be a bit weary of the militarization. But they also may be weary of Scandinavia impeding Germany's plans. This is the day and age of Pan-Germanism. After being a part of a huge multi-ethnic Superstate, they are having a big German Nationalist surge. I didn't half-assedly restore it. I've always had plans to restore it. The budget needs to be done and Generals, who are too busy worring about fools like Pakistan, are incapable, for many reasons, of doing the build. So they get the Reichstag to do what it orginally did. Basically, we're back to 1914.

And stop trying to put me to blame for everything. I may have escalated the first one to include me and France but that was it. WWII was because America stole Spain's Canary Islands and Russia was defending Spain, so I went to war, like a good ally should. The Third was just an extention of the second and was both sides' unwillingness to compromise on the Chinese situation. Anyways...

IC: "What does Germany care what the "mighty" Pakistan says? You call us warmongers, yet, when a conflict that has nothing to do with your nation doesn't even begin, you MOBILIZE YOUR FORCES. Your hypocracy screams like a mustard-gas plagued Afghan child."

Ignoring the Pakistani, the Kaiser turns to the Scandic, who he should be spending his time on.

"I am glad that you, good sir, have finally come to your senses. However, it seems not all of them are there.

But back on topic, if you want Holstein then we shall have to compromise, and yes it will only be Holstein. Schleswig always has been Danish, and is linked to the Danish crown, and so it will remain. Holstein will be given to Germany if the leaders of the coup are thrown in jail, preferably a U.N. sponsered jail, Holstein is to remain demilitarized and Germany is to abandon its nuclear program and dismantle all work completed on it thusfar.

Schleswig has not been Danish for nearly a century. Schleswig was only Danish because the King of Denmark held claim over it. Now that the King has been overthrown for nearly 35 years, Denmark has no claim over it. Either way, it is a monarchial claim, a claim which your friend, the Pakistani, has so rebuked.

Alas! Maybe he should not support the Scandinavian Union if the claim to Schleswig is through a King!

Now, you demand that the entire General Staff of the German Empire be put into a UN jail? You wish to strip Germany of its ability to fight, essentially? We will do no such thing! Perhaps we should jail all of the Scandic Generals who helped fight democracy in its most desparate form!

And what have the Generals done, in any case? What business is it of the UN's who runs Germany? The Generals are doing what is right and have caused nowhere near the damage Scandic Generals have caused in Arabia!

In any case, we will not leave Schleswig-Holstein to be vulnerable to attack from any nation. When it is handed over to Germany, it will be garrisoned with a Landswehr Garrison, just as every other area is. Perhaps, given the importance of the Kiel Canal, a flak division will be placed there, and several ships, to act as a coast guard!

Lastly, Germany will not abandon her nuclear program until Scandinavia abandons hers, and Britian reaffirms the Treaty of Daresalaam. The only use for nuclear weapons in this day and age is to act as a protection from others who would use them.

I also remind the World Body that the Reichstag will be given all of its powers as soon as Schleswig-Holstein is returned to German hands.

We also have some demands of our own.

Scandinavia shall not be allowed to interfere in the affairs of the Middle East south of the Turkic Alliance. They have cause more harm and destruction than any other nation there, including the Ex-Saudi Arabia.

We also demand that Pakistan not be allowed to develop a nuclear program. It's government is too unstable, even going to the point of using weapons on its own people. Both of those nations and their ABC programs have killed more than Germany's. No person of Northern Europe can forget that fateful year the Scandics radiated the entire Continent. I know my father can't..."

The Kaiser is President-for-life, a term commonly applied to dictators. He has the power to throw away democracy for his egoistic ambitions. Can the President of the United States halt democracy so that it can try and seize land unlawfully from Canada?

Yes, in fact, he could. Present German actions are actually much more acceptable. No dissidents are being jailed, even the Reichstag members overstepping thier power.

Every nation institutes its checks and balances differently. One hundred men disregarding the will of the people are far more dangerous than one man obeying it.

If every nation is to demand what was once their own, Syria would petition the UN for all lands from the Iberian peninsula to the Chinese border to be restored to rule under Damascus.

Parthini']
Schleswig has not been Danish for nearly a century. Schleswig was only Danish because the King of Denmark held claim over it. Now that the King has been overthrown for nearly 35 years, Denmark has no claim over it. Either way, it is a monarchial claim, a claim which your friend, the Pakistani, has so rebuked.

Alas! Maybe he should not support the Scandinavian Union if the claim to Schleswig is through a King!

Now, you demand that the entire General Staff of the German Empire be put into a UN jail? You wish to strip Germany of its ability to fight, essentially? We will do no such thing! Perhaps we should jail all of the Scandic Generals who helped fight democracy in its most desparate form!

And what have the Generals done, in any case? What business is it of the UN's who runs Germany? The Generals are doing what is right and have caused nowhere near the damage Scandic Generals have caused in Arabia!

In any case, we will not leave Schleswig-Holstein to be vulnerable to attack from any nation. When it is handed over to Germany, it will be garrisoned with a Landswehr Garrison, just as every other area is. Perhaps, given the importance of the Kiel Canal, a flak division will be placed there, and several ships, to act as a coast guard!

Lastly, Germany will not abandon her nuclear program until Scandinavia abandons hers, and Britian reaffirms the Treaty of Daresalaam. The only use for nuclear weapons in this day and age is to act as a protection from others who would use them.

I also remind the World Body that the Reichstag will be given all of its powers as soon as Schleswig-Holstein is returned to German hands.

We also have some demands of our own.

Scandinavia shall not be allowed to interfere in the affairs of the Middle East south of the Turkic Alliance. They have cause more harm and destruction than any other nation there, including the Ex-Saudi Arabia.

We also demand that Pakistan not be allowed to develop a nuclear program. It's government is too unstable, even going to the point of using weapons on its own people. Both of those nations and their ABC programs have killed more than Germany's. No person of Northern Europe can forget that fateful year the Scandics radiated the entire Continent. I know my father can't..."

Schleswig was Danish for more than that reason, including treaties signed by Germany and England but I will not discuss the issue further, Schleswig is Scandic and that is final. Holstein will be ggien to Germany up to the Kiel Canal.

Scandinavia is not asking you to behead your military, we are just asking that the members of the coup who very nearly started a nuclear war with us be punished, and if they be members of your military then so be it, that does not exempt them from the punishment they deserve. We can not deal with a nation that allows its generals to routininly take over the government and threaten war on its neighbors, primarily us, without punishment, that sets a dangerous precedent, one we can not live with. Next time time what if they go further? We will not take that chance.

The issue of Holstein being demilitarized is semi negotiable. We will allow a limited, defensive presence but no offensive weaponry of any kind are to be stationed in Holstein. We will not see Holstein become a springboard for further operations into Scandinavia.

If Germany is not to punish the members of the coup and allow things of that nature to occur then we can not sit by and let people like that possibly get their hands on nuclear weaponry. You have nuclear equipped allies to defend you, you do not need them.

Germany has no right to dictate to us our foriegn policy in regions thousands of miles away from here. If Scandinavia can not deal in the Middle East than Germany should not be allowed to either.

It seems to me both sides fear the other using the area to launch an attack. Perhaps both sides would agree to keep offensive forces out of the territories, regardless of how it it split.

Schleswig was Danish for more than that reason, including treaties signed by Germany and England but I will not discuss the issue further, Schleswig is Scandic and that is final. Holstein will be ggien to Germany up to the Kiel Canal.

Scandinavia is not asking you to behead your military, we are just asking that the members of the coup who very nearly started a nuclear war with us be punished, and if they be members of your military then so be it, that does not exempt them from the punishment they deserve. We can not deal with a nation that allows its generals to routininly take over the government and threaten war on its neighbors, primarily us, without punishment, that sets a dangerous precedent, one we can not live with. Next time time what if they go further? We will not take that chance.

The issue of Holstein being demilitarized is semi negotiable. We will allow a limited, defensive presence but no offensive weaponry of any kind are to be stationed in Holstein. We will not see Holstein become a springboard for further operations into Scandinavia.

If Germany is not to punish the members of the coup and allow things of that nature to occur then we can not sit by and let people like that possibly get their hands on nuclear weaponry. You have nuclear equipped allies to defend you, you do not need them.

Germany has no right to dictate to us our foriegn policy in regions thousands of miles away from here. If Scandinavia can not deal in the Middle East than Germany should not be allowed to either.


"So what of the citizens of Schleswig who wish to remain in their homes and become German? Do we abandon them to anger and dissapointment? All of Schleswig-Holstein voted to become German, and it should be so.

This "coup" you call, had no intention of starting a nuclear war. What does this say about you, sir? You claim that they would have started a nuclear war, yet the Generals had no intention of using nuclear weapons, regardless of the situation. Does that mean that you recieved word that Scandic Nuclear weapons would have been used? What the Military did is up to the people of Germany, since they have committed no fault against your nation. Why punish them for their words? We in Germany believe in free speech, regardless of how much it may hurt someone else's feelings. I hope the great defenders of Democracy allow such similar methods!" He glared at the Pakistani as he said those words.

"As I was saying, Germany has no wish to plunge its people into war without reason. That is something communists do. The Military bases are already created an we have no wish to spend more money on new ones. You have our word that German lands north of Hamburg will merely militarized for the sake of defense. We trust that Danish Lands will be similarly semi-militarized.

If you find no need for Germany to have nuclear weapons, we ask a similar question: in an age of mutual protection, why does Scandinavia need nuclear weapons? America has already insisted that it will retaliate against anyone who illegally uses nuclear weapons.

Lastly, if Germany has no right to dictate Scandic foreign policy, the Scandinavia has no right to dictate German domestic policy.

However, with all of this compromise, I make a deal. If Scandinavia agrees to stay out of the Middle East, south of the Turkic Alliance (Basically, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Oman, Arabia, Basra, Baghdad, West Arabia, Kurdistan, UIR, Kuwait), I, Kaiser Hubertus, will abdicate in favor of one of my daughters, will refrain from interfering in Politics, live in self-exile in South Africa or Britain, and will, as my last act as Kaiser, extremely limit the powers of the Kaiser, as well as restore the Reichstag to its full authority, and ensure that such an incident as this never happens again."

The entire German nation who was watching many of the debates on television, was silent.

It seems to me both sides fear the other using the area to launch an attack. Perhaps both sides would agree to keep offensive forces out of the territories, regardless of how it it split.

That is a policy already followed by the Scandic Union, no offensive military units are in Holstein, the only troops there being garrison troops to defend the area.


And what of the hundreds of thousands of Scandic in Schleswig and Holstein? Should we just abandon them in favor of the Germans? We've seen the treatment Scandic's get in Germany, dragged of the streets for no other reason than being born Scandic, and that is not something we will allow happen to more of our people. You will recieve Holstein up to the Canal and that is all.

If what your military leaders did were just speak a few words than that would be fine but what they did in truth was overthrow the Reichstag, which is probaly to afraid to complain right now, and bring the world to the brink of war. They must be punished or Germany shall recieve nothing.

We have nuclear weapons because unlike Germany, we do not have nuclear armed friends to protect us. We require them, you do not, you are already under their defense unlike Scandinavia should we abandon them.

Never once did we try to dictate your domestic policy, we do not wish to get involved with German politics and we will not accept germany butting itself into our affairs. Several nations in the Middle East are either allies, friends or of importance to Scandinavia and our economy. We are already to deeply involved to pull out, as are you and so we will not even bother asking you to stay out of the Middle East. You can keep your title.

OOC: Would this be the Security Council lineup for 1955 or for 1956 - Armenia and Georgia, China, Dominican Republic, Egypt, Gran Colombia, Great Britain (United Kingdom), Greece, Honduras, Hungary, Korea, Liberia, South Africa, Switzerland, United Islamic Republic and the United States?

OOC: Some of those appear to be on the 1955 list, others not. Where did you find that list?

Germany meets all of your demands and then some, but you deny them? Who is it that demands war now? How much more should you be rewarded for disregarding the UN?

Parthini']"However, with all of this compromise, I make a deal. If Scandinavia agrees to stay out of the Middle East, south of the Turkic Alliance (Basically, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Oman, Arabia, Basra, Baghdad, West Arabia, Kurdistan, UIR, Kuwait), I, Kaiser Hubertus, will abdicate in favor of one of my daughters, will refrain from interfering in Politics, live in self-exile in South Africa or Britain, and will, as my last act as Kaiser, extremely limit the powers of the Kaiser, as well as restore the Reichstag to its full authority, and ensure that such an incident as this never happens again."

The entire German nation who was watching many of the debates on television, was silent.

If the Kaiser were to do this, Pakistan shall support Germanies claims on Schleswig-Holstein.

That is a policy already followed by the Scandic Union, no offensive military units are in Holstein, the only troops there being garrison troops to defend the area.


And what of the hundreds of thousands of Scandic in Schleswig and Holstein? Should we just abandon them in favor of the Germans? We've seen the treatment Scandic's get in Germany, dragged of the streets for no other reason than being born Scandic, and that is not something we will allow happen to more of our people. You will recieve Holstein up to the Canal and that is all.

If what your military leaders did were just speak a few words than that would be fine but what they did in truth was overthrow the Reichstag, which is probaly to afraid to complain right now, and bring the world to the brink of war. They must be punished or Germany shall recieve nothing.

We have nuclear weapons because unlike Germany, we do not have nuclear armed friends to protect us. We require them, you do not, you are already under their defense unlike Scandinavia should we abandon them.

Never once did we try to dictate your domestic policy, we do not wish to get involved with German politics and we will not accept germany butting itself into our affairs. Several nations in the Middle East are either allies, friends or of importance to Scandinavia and our economy. We are already to deeply involved to pull out, as are you and so we will not even bother asking you to stay out of the Middle East. You can keep your title.

They would, obviously, be recompensated and sent to Scandinavia, if they so wished. The reason those lands should become German is because the majority wishes it so. Such is the way of the democracy you cherish so much.

And the Reichstag, which is complaining, complaining that Scandinavia is becoming so obstinate that they will not agree to the simplest of requests, while Germany taking the short end of the stick, has the freedom to speak however they wish. Just because they will not echo the sounds you make, does not mean they are not speaking their minds.

And you are, currently, dictating our domestic policy, demanding that we put our Generals in jail, without a fair trial! You are demanding that we abandon our nuclear program which we have spent so many funds creating. However, in the interest of peace, we are willing to suspend our nuclear program next year.

We are already too deeply involved in our nuclear program, yet I have just now stated that we will agree to abandon it. The Middle East is no different. You have one ally in the Mideast, an ally which is, as we speak, being torn apart by the democracy that you so cherish. As for your economy, Scandinavia has plenty of oil in its friends in the Turkic Alliance and in the North Sea, which, I assume, will be divided between you and Great Britain.

I also find it interesting that you decide you have allies in the Middle East only after Germany attempted to secure its own friends and economic prospects. You already have much sway over the Turkics. Why must you extend your hand of influence over the Arab peoples?

Thus, we only find it fair that if we abandon our nuclear program and create a democracy that will satisfy your tastes, that you find another area of the world to influence. For God's sake, Pakistan has deemed my compromise reasonable! I would think that an intelligent Germanic person such as yourself would be more reasonable than that fool!

Schleswig is not negotiable, you will get Holstein up tot he canal, past that and Schleswig is ours. That is something you must accept. The top emembers of the coup, the very top few, not all of them, must be punished to set the right precedent, one that says coups will not be tolerated instead of one saying coups are to be allowed when the military doesn't agree with the government. We are not saying they don't deserve trial for they certanly do, but if so they should be tried in a neutral court by German laws, which by the way dictate a minimum of two years hard labor for treason.

We will compensate you in part for what you have paid developing your nuclear program, and nuclear power plants are of course no problem, but your weapons program must be dismantled. As for the Middle East, we are allied to both Saudi Arabia and the entire Turkic alliance, and we are extremely friendly with the UIR. UNless you are willing to abandon Syria and the UR we will not abandon our interests. And no, the recent oil discoveries in the North Sea are not enough for our large and growing economy.

Nigeria moves that the United Nations level an economic embargo upon the Scandic Union until such a time as it complys with the UN resolution.

"Unless the United Nations can enforce it's own rulings and decisions, it is useless. Countries cannot be allowed to pick and choose which resolutions they wish to obey."

Diplomat Song Jiaoren points out to the Scandic Union the following.

"Germany apparently does not enjoy the nuclear 'umbrella' of its allies anymore considering Britain and by extension the Commonwealth has nullified the Treaty of Dareslaam (sp?), therefore Britain and the Commonwealth are no longer obligated to defend Germany militarily and with nuclear weapons."

Nigeria moves that the United Nations level an economic embargo upon the Scandic Union until such a time as it complys with the UN resolution.

"Unless the United Nations can enforce it's own rulings and decisions, it is useless. Countries cannot be allowed to pick and choose which resolutions they wish to obey."

ooc: We'll veto this kthx.

ic:

Schleswig has not been Danish for nearly a century.

Germany hasn't been an actual Nationstate for more than half a century.

We also demand that Pakistan not be allowed to develop a nuclear program. It's government is too unstable, even going to the point of using weapons on its own people. Both of those nations and their ABC programs have killed more than Germany's. No person of Northern Europe can forget that fateful year the Scandics radiated the entire Continent. I know my father can't..."

Yes, just like we can't forget when the Germans helped develop those nuclear weapons used by the Union that the Germans were an essential part of, that murdered millions of innocent people. Speaking of unstable governments... hows that Reichstag doing anyways? Oh whats that, the military disposed of a democratically elected group of policy makers replacing them with a despot? You don't say.

The reason those lands should become German is because the majority wishes it so.

Really? I could've thought that you wanted that area so you could have power over the Kiel Canal... atleast one country can see through your false claims. We know that you do not truely care about these people. All the German government cares for is their military; The Kiel Canal is vital for the survival of the German Navy. It must of course be secured, no?

OOC: Just beacuse Germany wasn't a nation, doesn't mean Schleswig wasn't Danish. 1964 will be mark the 100th anniversary of Schleswig-Holstein being taken by Prussia.

Oh, and the Kiel Canal can't support large ships like Carriers.

IC: The Kaiser first directs his attention to the Colombian Imperialist.

"I will do no more than recognize this poor excuse for a delegate. For the representative of a Permanent Member of the Security Council, you sir, are a disgrace. I will not talk with blithering, sarcastic and disrespectful fools like yourself."

Turning his attention to the Scandic, he replied.

"As you may have missed, I stated that the Middle East which I have discussed does not apply to the UIR or the Turkic Alliance. As for Arabia, your pathetic excuse for a puppet is no longer the supreme ruler of the Arabian peninsula. He has been overthrown by the will of his subjects, just like the Reichstag was suspended through the will of the people. The people of Arabia may be tired of being "allied" to those who oppress them.

The Oil in the North Sea may not be enough to support your economy, but surely the oil in the UIR, Baku and the CAR is enough!

As for the other matters, Germany will not discuss those matters until Scandinavia agrees to discontinue interfering in the areas I mentioned (RL Iraq, Kurdistan, RL Saudi Arabia, Oman, Yemen, Kuwait, Jordan, the UR, Syria) If Scandinavia wishes to continue talks, it will agree to this proposal."

It is obvious that the German "Kaiser" wishes to resort to insults in the face of critical judgement. Why should anyone take your government seriously anymore.

There is a reason why the Federation of South American Nations is on the security council. We're the ones who aren't responsible for millions of deaths, and attempting to claim more.

When you are prepared for intelligent conversation, and ready to take critisism, the nations of the world will take you seriously. For all you are is a little boy trying to fill the shoes of his father.

(Hes not Colombian btw. Good try though. And Im confused.. you are admitting that S-H was Danish?)

The US supports the Scandic compromise as a reasonable offer and will not support an embargo. In an exchange similar to the one worked out between Greece and Turkey after their war would seem a good solution.

We are troubled by the tune this "dialogue" is taking, not only does it seem rather rowdy and unaccomedating to each other, but certain things are exceptionally troubling,

An issue is the everlasting debate over the history of the region, we could sit here and debate that the Romans conquered Gaul for a long time so Italy has a legal claim over France. Gentlemen, we are diplomats our function is to work TOGETHER not AGAINST each other to work out what is best for the world first then our own nation, after all, Diplomacy is the art of comprimise.

Now let us properly examine the relevent facts:
-The contested area has had a plebicite planned to be held in it to determine its future.

-The SU refused to allow the plebicite despite the passing of the resolution on grounds that German weapons are being used against Scandic troops in ally Saudi Arabia.

-Germany is outraged and delivers an ultimatum: accept UN resolution or face conflict.

-SU, Pakestani and FNS accuse Germany of war-mongering.

-Several unrelated history debates, including the imature "my nation is much better and your nation is a long running vampire" are raised causing further squabels.

From this we see two errors:

1-The irrational refusal of the SU to hold the plebicites over illigetimate reasons.
2-The irrational and hasty knee-jerk reaction by Germany by mobillising its armies.

For 1, we should go on with the plebicites (perhaps one seperate for each territory) and we suggest place the waterway under international control. Of course depending on the results of the plebicites the future of the area still needs to be determined.

A suggestion brought up by a member of the French government is to perhaps make the area a buffer state like Burgundy, you may choose to consider this then again you may choose to shoot it down r simply ignore it.

If the Su refuses however, perhaps further action is indeed needed by the UN.

For 2, a simple formal apology is required from Germany to the international community and a promise to not be too hasty in the future. Maybe SALT (Strategic Arms Limitation Talks) for both millitary and nuclear arms may be held between these two edgy nations to reduce tension.

The Pakistani delegate raises his voice and makes a proposal. "Instead of having only one plebiscite, why do we not have two? If Germany is so assured that the entire population of Schleswig-Holstein wants to be part of Germany, why not let them have their two seperate votes? If this were to happen, the victory of democracy shall be complete, and then Europe and the world can move forward to a more prosperous future, that does not involve everyone dying in a biological, chemical, or nuclear attack."

It is obvious that the German "Kaiser" wishes to resort to insults in the face of critical judgement. Why should anyone take your government seriously anymore.

There is a reason why the Federation of South American Nations is on the security council. We're the ones who aren't responsible for millions of deaths, and attempting to claim more.

When you are prepared for intelligent conversation, and ready to take critisism, the nations of the world will take you seriously. For all you are is a little boy trying to fill the shoes of his father.

(Hes not Colombian btw. Good try though. And Im confused.. you are admitting that S-H was Danish?)

OOC: Considering you didn't put OOC tags around your words and this is an IC thread, It was a rude and unnecissary way to address a head of state. So, until you fix your attitude to at least Pakistani standards, I'm not going to IC address anything.

And yes, I am admitting that Schleswig-Holstein was Danish, up until 1864, and only because it was owned by the King, who now doesn't run Denmark, so their claim is illegitamate.

IC: The Kaiser agrees to the compromise for two plebicides, since both will agree to join Germany either way, how ever many votes it requires is acceptable to the German people.

Germany also believes that the Kiel Canal should be made an international waterway, regardless of the Plebicide. One of the problems of Scandinavia's restrictive law delcaring Skaggerak Scandic, meant that German merchants were severely limited because of restrictive tariffs occasionally made on passage of the Canal. Under international hands, it would become totally free for the German Merchants who need that to travel.

Germany, however, does not feel that Schleswig-Holstein should be a separate entity, because, unlike Burgundy, it desires to be a part of Germany.

Germany, however, is not willing to accept any of these compromises unless Scandinavia agrees to halt its spread of influence over the Middle East. Germany will not allow Scandinavia to continue to hold sway over murderous tyrants who cause the death of thousands.

Parthini']OOC: Considering you didn't put OOC tags around your words and this is an IC thread, It was a rude and unnecissary way to address a head of state. So, until you fix your attitude to at least Pakistani standards, I'm not going to IC address anything.

And yes, I am admitting that Schleswig-Holstein was Danish, up until 1864, and only because it was owned by the King, who now doesn't run Denmark, so their claim is illegitamate.

IC: The Kaiser agrees to the compromise for two plebicides, since both will agree to join Germany either way, how ever many votes it requires is acceptable to the German people.

Germany also believes that the Kiel Canal should be made an international waterway, regardless of the Plebicide. One of the problems of Scandinavia's restrictive law delcaring Skaggerak Scandic, meant that German merchants were severely limited because of restrictive tariffs occasionally made on passage of the Canal. Under international hands, it would become totally free for the German Merchants who need that to travel.

Germany, however, does not feel that Schleswig-Holstein should be a separate entity, because, unlike Burgundy, it desires to be a part of Germany.

Germany, however, is not willing to accept any of these compromises unless Scandinavia agrees to halt its spread of influence over the Middle East. Germany will not allow Scandinavia to continue to hold sway over murderous tyrants who cause the death of thousands.

The Pakistani delegate reminds the Germans that the world is not black-and-white, and some of the people that Germany supports have been less than good citizens. Thus is the nature of the world, and in certain cases one must choose the lesser of two evils.

The Pakistani delegate reminds the Germans that the world is not black-and-white, and some of the people that Germany supports have been less than good citizens. Thus is the nature of the world, and in certain cases one must choose the lesser of two evils.

They have been less than good citizens because the Government that they live under is tyrannical and murderous. They were desparate people who came to desparate measures and Germany supported them. Scandinavia, at that time decided it would support the tyrants, in the name of national sovreignty. However, if he really believed that a country should determine its own course, then he would have let the Saudis be overthrown.

Parthini']
"As you may have missed, I stated that the Middle East which I have discussed does not apply to the UIR or the Turkic Alliance. As for Arabia, your pathetic excuse for a puppet is no longer the supreme ruler of the Arabian peninsula. He has been overthrown by the will of his subjects, just like the Reichstag was suspended through the will of the people. The people of Arabia may be tired of being "allied" to those who oppress them.

The Oil in the North Sea may not be enough to support your economy, but surely the oil in the UIR, Baku and the CAR is enough!

As for the other matters, Germany will not discuss those matters until Scandinavia agrees to discontinue interfering in the areas I mentioned (RL Iraq, Kurdistan, RL Saudi Arabia, Oman, Yemen, Kuwait, Jordan, the UR, Syria) If Scandinavia wishes to continue talks, it will agree to this proposal."

Do try to show some civility, no one else here has resorted to name calling and insults so don't start it now. As for the Saud Royal family, I do believe that Germany was backing them before us Scandics got to them, we only started helping them when you dropped them for supporting a democratic revolution in the UIR, which we also backed. It was the SU who helped the UIR get its independance and spread democracy to that nation, it was the SU who proposed months ago that elections be held in Saudi Arabia. What nations has Germany spread democracy to? What great deeds have you done in the world other than helping the Russians nuke Boston? We all know you helped those radical muslims in the PLO when you became the first and only nation to flatten the Vatican and kill the pope, but who else have you helped?

You have no right to tell us we can not deal in a region of the world, especially one that borders several allied nations. Why doesn't Germany stay out of the Middle East? If you truly care about peace in the Middle East and teh safety and stability of the region then you will agree to this, the Scandic Union will stay out of matters in the area's you mentioned but so will Germany. Lets see if you truly care about the people, or about your own interests.

The French have brought forth an important idea. Let us review what has currently happened, and what has been proposed.

First, the UN called for plebecites in several areas, including Schleswig-Holstein. Scandanavia contested the vote in Schleswig-Holstein, and prevented it from occurring.

During the tense situation that followed, Scandanavia made the demands including:

Schleswig would remain Scandic, Holstein (up to the Kiel Canal) will become German land again.
Both sides will withdraw all offensive forces from the area.
Members of the German "coup" will be punished
Germany will remove its nuclear weapons program

Germany made the following concessions:
A small defensive force will remain in S-H (1 garrion, 1 flak, few ships)
Germany will abandon its nuclear program if Scandanavia does and Britian reaffirms the Treaty of Daresalaam.
The Reichstag will be given full powers again.

In exchange for the following:
All of S-H is transferred to Germany.
Scananavia refrains from interfering in the Middle East (RL Iraq, RL Saudi Arabia, Kurdistan, Syria, UR, Oman, Yemen, Kuwait, and Jordan)
Pakistan ceases any nuclear program

Germany shortly added the following concessions and demands.
If Scandanavia agrees to stay out of the Middle East, the Kaiser will step down, and severely limit the powers of his daughter and all future successors, go into exile, and never interfere in German affairs again.

Proposals by France and Pakistan call for separate plebecites in both lands, placing the Kiel Canal under international supervision, possible action against the SU if they continue to refuse the will of the UN, a formal apology from Germany, and Arms Limitation talks to be held to try and limit tensions on both sides.

Several other minor motions have come up, namely a Syrian proposal, supported by China, to withdraw all Scandic and German peacekeepers from Palestine, and a Nigerian proposal calling for a UN embargo on Scandanavia for denying the UN, which has been vetoed by the FNS.

Now, to look at these agreements, all of which one side or the other has denied, excluding the peacekeeping withdrawl, which was lost in the heat of debate.

The Scandic proposal calls for massive German concessions with nothing in return. It could be construed as rewarding Scandanavia for ignoring the UN. Immediate punishment of coup members also denies due process of law, something we all strive for. Germany is also unlikely to abandon its program without similar assurances from Germany. However, a demilitarized area along the border, whatever it may be, is a worthwhile idea.

In the first German proposal, the idea of abandoning nuclear weapons in return for similar actions in the SU is something to work for, however, both sides want guarantees from other nations that they will be protected. The USA has promised retaliation against any state using nuclear weapons, however, this idea needs to be explored further, as would a cancellation of the Pakistani nuclear program.

Reinstating the Reichstag fully is also important. Having the Kaiser step down, and limit the power of his sucessors, is something Pakistan, Scandanavia, and other countries would be pleased with. However, intervention in the Middle East is something Scandanavia clearly wants to do.

Looking at these proposals, and the others presented, we believe the the following should be included in a proposal both sides can agree to.

Separate plebecites are to be held in Schleswig and Holstein, the results of which shall be upheld by both sides, and both sides will drop claims to the rest of the land.
The Kiel Canal shall be placed under international supervision
No offensive weaponry shall be kept in Schleswig or Holstein
The fate of the Scandanavian, German, and Pakistani nuclear programs shall be dealt with at a Strategic Arms Limitation conference, which all states with nuclear weapons or the capability to build said weapons will attend.
The Reichstag will be reinstated with all powers it had as of February 1955.
And, on the issues of foreign intervention and the Kaisers powers, there are three options.

A. The Kaiser immediately steps down, exiles himself from Germany, and limits the power of his sucessors in exchange for no Scandic intervention in the Middle East.

B. The Kaiser retains full powers, as do his sucessors, and Scandanavia is given free control over intervention in Middle Eastern nations' government policies.

C. The Reichstag determines the fate of the Kaiser's role, and the Arab League confer and make a judgement on foreign intervention.

In addition, if the stalemate continues, the UN will move to make the sides come to an agreement, taking punitive measures against one or both sides as deemed necessary. Is this acceptable?

The French have brought forth an important idea. Let us review what has currently happened, and what has been proposed.

First, the UN called for plebecites in several areas, including Schleswig-Holstein. Scandanavia contested the vote in Schleswig-Holstein, and prevented it from occurring.

During the tense situation that followed, Scandanavia made the demands including:

Schleswig would remain Scandic, Holstein (up to the Kiel Canal) will become German land again.
Both sides will withdraw all offensive forces from the area.
Members of the German "coup" will be punished
Germany will remove its nuclear weapons program

Germany made the following concessions:
A small defensive force will remain in S-H (1 garrion, 1 flak, few ships)
Germany will abandon its nuclear program if Scandanavia does and Britian reaffirms the Treaty of Daresalaam.
The Reichstag will be given full powers again.

In exchange for the following:
All of S-H is transferred to Germany.
Scananavia refrains from interfering in the Middle East (RL Iraq, RL Saudi Arabia, Kurdistan, Syria, UR, Oman, Yemen, Kuwait, and Jordan)
Pakistan ceases any nuclear program

Germany shortly added the following concessions and demands.
If Scandanavia agrees to stay out of the Middle East, the Kaiser will step down, and severely limit the powers of his daughter and all future successors, go into exile, and never interfere in German affairs again.

Proposals by France and Pakistan call for separate plebecites in both lands, placing the Kiel Canal under international supervision, possible action against the SU if they continue to refuse the will of the UN, a formal apology from Germany, and Arms Limitation talks to be held to try and limit tensions on both sides.

Several other minor motions have come up, namely a Syrian proposal, supported by China, to withdraw all Scandic and German peacekeepers from Palestine, and a Nigerian proposal calling for a UN embargo on Scandanavia for denying the UN, which has been vetoed by the FNS.

Now, to look at these agreements, all of which one side or the other has denied, excluding the peacekeeping withdrawl, which was lost in the heat of debate.

The Scandic proposal calls for massive German concessions with nothing in return. It could be construed as rewarding Scandanavia for ignoring the UN. Immediate punishment of coup members also denies due process of law, something we all strive for. Germany is also unlikely to abandon its program without similar assurances from Germany. However, a demilitarized area along the border, whatever it may be, is a worthwhile idea.

In the first German proposal, the idea of abandoning nuclear weapons in return for similar actions in the SU is something to work for, however, both sides want guarantees from other nations that they will be protected. The USA has promised retaliation against any state using nuclear weapons, however, this idea needs to be explored further, as would a cancellation of the Pakistani nuclear program.

Reinstating the Reichstag fully is also important. Having the Kaiser step down, and limit the power of his sucessors, is something Pakistan, Scandanavia, and other countries would be pleased with. However, intervention in the Middle East is something Scandanavia clearly wants to do.

Looking at these proposals, and the others presented, we believe the the following should be included in a proposal both sides can agree to.

Separate plebecites are to be held in Schleswig and Holstein, the results of which shall be upheld by both sides, and both sides will drop claims to the rest of the land.
The Kiel Canal shall be placed under international supervision
No offensive weaponry shall be kept in Schleswig or Holstein
The fate of the Scandanavian, German, and Pakistani nuclear programs shall be dealt with at a Strategic Arms Limitation conference, which all states with nuclear weapons or the capability to build said weapons will attend.
The Reichstag will be reinstated with all powers it had as of February 1955.
And, on the issues of foreign intervention and the Kaisers powers, there are three options.

A. The Kaiser immediately steps down, exiles himself from Germany, and limits the power of his sucessors in exchange for no Scandic intervention in the Middle East.

B. The Kaiser retains full powers, as do his sucessors, and Scandanavia is given free control over intervention in Middle Eastern nations' government policies.

C. The Reichstag determines the fate of the Kaiser's role, and the Arab League confer and make a judgement on foreign intervention.

In addition, if the stalemate continues, the UN will move to make the sides come to an agreement, taking punitive measures against one or both sides as deemed necessary. Is this acceptable?

Pakistan has no nuclear arms, and is many years away from even the most simple of atomic technologies, so we do not understand the current interest in the destruction of our non-existant nuclear weapons program.

It has been brought up in previous debates, we are merely trying to address all concerns, although if your programs are no longer held an issue by parties involved, that part can be struck out.

The Scandic proposal calls for massive German concessions with nothing in return. It could be construed as rewarding Scandanavia for ignoring the UN. Immediate punishment of coup members also denies due process of law, something we all strive for.


Do not twist what we say and do against us. We asked for a trial in a neutral court by German law.

Perhaps it was a language barrier issue. We took "immediate jailing" and "immediate punishment" to mean something different then you meant. If that is the case we are sorry.

But what of the proposal, what do you think of that agreement.

OOC: When you say Schleswig do you mean southern Schleswig which is what Germany has in rl or all of Schleswig for the plebiscite? Because if its just S Schleswig then theres a German majority but all of Schleswig then theres a Danish majority so it makes a difference.

Anyways, Germany agreed to everything so far except the ME thing, so if he agrees to what I just proposed then we'll already have a deal.

OOC: Not entirely sure (that was something we should have worked out before this whole thing started) but here's an idea, sort of based on a town in RL not long ago that wanted to secede from NH and join Vermont.

IC:

What if the plebecites were held in a manner so that counties (or similar adminsitrative divisions) had elections to determine which nation they wished to be part of? If it is, as both sides have stressed, largely a geographic basis of support, with a German south and Danish north, this should work well. Any gaps, resulting in either Scandic or German enclaves, would require agreements of free border crossing, although there will likely be few occasions this will come up.

It seems we already have an agreement with Germany except for the Middle East, let us see if that works out before trying out new avenues.

On the Middle East subject, how about Scandinavia stays out of the area militarily and politically, although our people are allowed to do bussiness there should they wish and in return Germany stays away from the Turks and Islamics on the same basis. We would need a gaurantee though that oil or any other needed prouct from the Middle East will not be cut off from the SU. I think this sounds fair enough.

A guarantee that oil will not be cut off would likely be something you'd have to go to individual governments about, but it sounds like we have peace.

Pakistan supports the proposition hammered out by the SU and Syria (save the part of the Nuclear weapons program, of course), and we hope that the Kaiser can see that this is the sort of proposition any civilized man would accept.

The US raises a few points:
1. The UN has no jurisdiction over the internal affairs of any country, unless that country has been placed under UN jurisdiction. So the German proposal concerning the Kaiser has no relevence to the UN. Nor does the UN have any jurisdiction over the coup plotters in Germany. Unless crimes against humanity have been committed, or an aggressive war has been started, the UN cannot interfere in this matter.
2. Precedent regarding territorial adjustments does exist. The Greek Turkey situation post Third Great War is the most obvious example. Therefore, based on that precedent, the Scandic Union's proposal is very reasonable.
3. The Keil Canal can be placed under international rules, particularly as the proposal by the Scandic Union placing it as a border would make it an international waterway.
4. The German demand that the Scandic Union not interfere in the Middle East is also outside of international law. Although to promote peace and security, it is recommended by the US that if the Scandic Union must agree to this, then SO MUST GERMANY. In other words, no German military forces in the Middle East either.
5. The US sees no purpose in the arms limitations sections of the proposal, as they are unenforcably vague. Offensive weapon could be anything from a rifle upwards, while a defensive weapon could easily be classified the same way.

The US interpretation of the Scandic restrictions regarding the Baltic Sea has been that military vessels require clearance but civilian traffic does not. Unless that has changed, the German demand regarding that is in error.

OOC: I have to go soon so this will be quick.

IC: The Kaiser apologises for using rude words.

The Kaiser agrees to the Scandic terms on the Middle East. Oil is important to both Scandinavia and Germany and Arabia's vast resources can be used by both.

Germany also wants assurance that Inteligence agents will not be used by either side in their area. Also, Individual countries, should they have a problem with a certain country will be able to embargo (ie. Arabia doesn't like Scandinavia, so it can embargo)

Everything else we agree to. Trials will be held for all involved. One last thing, we should do the county thing so that all are benefitted.

OOC:

I'm wondering- what is to happen to the German and SU nuclear programs? Did they agree to disband these programs or whether they both get to keep their programs ongoing?

OOC:

I'm wondering- what is to happen to the German and SU nuclear programs? Did they agree to disband these programs or whether they both get to keep their programs ongoing?

ooc
I don't see the Scandic Union getting rid of their program anytime soon, and requiring Germany to do so would not stabilize the situation I suspect

IC
The US points out to Germany that the prohibition on intelligence agencies is impossible to enforce by the UN, and the local nations involved are surely likely to expel spies that they catch.

Russia would like to congratulate both Germany and the SU on realizing that violence does not solve anything as previous examples in history have shown.

Russia would like to address however that the SU still remains in control of the St. Petersburg area which voted to return to Russia. Russia hereby requests that the UN help mediate a solution to this problem as it did with the German-SU conflict. Russia has shown itself as willing to be resonable in the matter of the plebicite issue and has allowed the territory that wished to leave to do so. Russia's only hope is that the SU acts as the resonable nation it has proven to be and addresses the issue of St. Petersburg.

ooc: Ah, the language of political BS, how love thee ;)

OOC: Ok, so is this what we've got so far?

-Germany is to recieve Holstein up to the Canal which will mark the new border.
-The canal itself is to become an international waterway
-No offensive formations in Holstein(In game terms it would mean only a garrison/flak unit)
-The members of the coup will be tried by German law for treason(And whatever other laws they broke, also, we need to find a neutral country for the trials...someone wanna volunteer?)
-The Reichstag is to be reinstated with its full powers
-The Scandic Union is to cut any military or political ties it has in the Middle East, although economic ties are allowed, likewise for germany in the Turkic alliance and the UIR

(I Don't know if you agreed to the nuclear part?)
Did I miss anything?

OOC: Ok, so is this what we've got so far?

-Germany is to recieve Holstein up to the Canal which will mark the new border.
-The canal itself is to become an international waterway
-No offensive formations in Holstein(In game terms it would mean only a garrison/flak unit)
-The members of the coup will be tried by German law for treason(And whatever other laws they broke, also, we need to find a neutral country for the trials...someone wanna volunteer?)
-The Reichstag is to be reinstated with its full powers
-The Scandic Union is to cut any military or political ties it has in the Middle East, although economic ties are allowed, likewise for germany in the Turkic alliance and the UIR

(I Don't know if you agreed to the nuclear part?)
Did I miss anything?

China volunteers to host the trials, as it has once again been neutral and not taking the German or SU side during this conflict.

OOC: GB, I didn't see this as a UN resolution, merely a treaty between the Scandic Union and Germany.

IC: Germany agrees to permanent suspension of its Nuclear Arms production, and will accept Scandic compensation. However, the small amount of nuclear arms we have (I think I have like 6) will be kept to act as a deterrant.

The Kaiser also says that Scandinavia and Germany should begin talks discussing the posibility of arms reduction to ease future tensions in Europe.

He also states that the trials should be held in Switzerland or Burgundy, citing their similarities to German Culture and Law.

Parthini']OOC: GB, I didn't see this as a UN resolution, merely a treaty between the Scandic Union and Germany. As for the trials, any of the nations mentioned would be fine.

IC: Germany agrees to permanent suspension of its Nuclear Arms production, and will accept Scandic compensation. However, the small amount of nuclear arms we have (I think I have like 6) will be kept to act as a deterrant.

The Kaiser also says that Scandinavia and Germany should begin talks discussing the posibility of arms reduction to ease future tensions in Europe.

He also states that the trials should be held in Switzerland or Burgundy, citing their similarities to German Culture and Law.

OOC: Wouldn't this be a treaty between our two nations?

IC:The Scandic rep looked over and nodded, "Yes, we have a lot we need to talk about."

OOC: Since this is more of a treaty discussion, would you like to move it over to the Scandic-German Crisis or Chatzy?

Parthini']OOC: Since this is more of a treaty discussion, would you like to move it over to the Scandic-German Crisis or Chatzy?

ooc
that would be best, the assumption was that this was occuring at the UN.

If things are going to cool of, I think we should go ahead and move time forward to 1956 beginning Tuesday.

ooc
that would be best, the assumption was that this was occuring at the UN.

If things are going to cool of, I think we should go ahead and move time forward to 1956 beginning Tuesday.

OOC: Well, I think the original discussions were in the UN. But I guess we'll just move the talks into another room... or something...

We would like to emphesise a point mentioned earlier:


The UN has no jurisdiction over the internal affairs of any country, unless that country has been placed under UN jurisdiction. So the German proposal concerning the Kaiser has no relevence to the UN. Nor does the UN have any jurisdiction over the coup plotters in Germany. Unless crimes against humanity have been committed, or an aggressive war has been started, the UN cannot interfere in this matter.

So the following terms are not part of the requirements by the UN from Germany and are subject to German approval or dispproval:

-The members of the coup will be tried by German law for treason(And whatever other laws they broke, also, we need to find a neutral country for the trials...someone wanna volunteer?)
-The Reichstag is to be reinstated with its full powers

Although the re-instatement of the Reichstag is much desired by many nations in the UN, EEC, ESA and otherwise.

The Kaiser thanks the French delegate for his support throughout the entire negotiations. However, for the good of the German People, he will abdicate and stay out of politics, as it will be a part of the Treaty that will be signed by Scandinavia and Germany.

OOC: Well, I figured that the Security Council list would be the first countries listed on the grid and the countries that were Permanent members. The List may have be corrected and placed within easy reach...

OOC: Maybe we should have a "UN mod" sort of position, that determines yearly Security Council spots.

OOC: Maybe we should have a "UN mod" sort of position, that determines yearly Security Council spots.

I suggest the Bulgarian player if he is still around, otherwise I would suggest Cylea

I suggest the Bulgarian player if he is still around, otherwise I would suggest Cylea

No modding positions for Pakistan :D

I suggest the Bulgarian player if he is still around, otherwise I would suggest Cylea

i'm not unwilling to. Let me know if it becomes official.

Oh this may be silly but what are the offical results of the Plebicite in Corsica? I am asking this because I am not sure if the Plebicite was officially held or not.

i believe corsica is now french. The italian player didnt protest anything (mostly because i dont think he is real active) and I just changed the possesion of the island on the foreign possessions map. So if I'm wrong, you wont be the only one disappointed.

Russia urges the UN to remember the St. Petersburg vote was also ignored by the SU and that this matter is of vital importance to Russia as civil strife has been rocking Russia.

Russia urges the UN to remember the St. Petersburg vote was also ignored by the SU and that this matter is of vital importance to Russia as civil strife has been rocking Russia.

the US asks the SU about that

Russia urges the UN to remember the St. Petersburg vote was also ignored by the SU and that this matter is of vital importance to Russia as civil strife has been rocking Russia.

Pakistan urges the UN to remember the Byelorussian vote as well.

Korea also urges the world to help provide relief for citizens endangered by the chaos in Portugal. The US and Brazil have volunteered to intervene militarily; this is a step forward. But the likelihood is that the citizens of Portugal, with a distrupted economy and the chaos of civil war around them, are in danger of suffering further deprivations such as starvation.

The German Ambassador brings up the issue of Kiel and its industry. From what teh Scandics have informed him, Scandinavia will be removing all of the industry back to Scandinavia without compensation. This is unacceptable to Germany because by Scandinavia's doing so, it has effectively obliterated the economy in Kiel, causing grotesquely high unemployment and thousands of families to lose their well being. Germany demands that compensation be given so that the Economy of Kiel can be put back on track.

Korea also urges the world to help provide relief for citizens endangered by the chaos in Portugal. The US and Brazil have volunteered to intervene militarily; this is a step forward. But the likelihood is that the citizens of Portugal, with a distrupted economy and the chaos of civil war around them, are in danger of suffering further deprivations such as starvation.

Brazil seconds the Korean request. The people of Portugal will be hard pressed to find food and medical attention due to the civil war. Brazil calls any nation to help the people of Portugal by sending any aid possible.

Parthini']The German Ambassador brings up the issue of Kiel and its industry. From what teh Scandics have informed him, Scandinavia will be removing all of the industry back to Scandinavia without compensation. This is unacceptable to Germany because by Scandinavia's doing so, it has effectively obliterated the economy in Kiel, causing grotesquely high unemployment and thousands of families to lose their well being. Germany demands that compensation be given so that the Economy of Kiel can be put back on track.

No, we are taking Industry either built or repaired by us. The industry will not move far, just over the river into Scandic Kiel and Schleswig so any residents of the German side of Kiel who work in the industry can take public transportation quite easily and continue to work.

Brazil seconds the Korean request. The people of Portugal will be hard pressed to find food and medical attention due to the civil war. Brazil calls any nation to help the people of Portugal by sending any aid possible.

The SU will provide any assistance needed, especially food and medical supplies which we will begin dispatching immediatly.(OOC: We will be providing 2 points in aid, also if needed we can assign shipping units to help transport aid or peacekeepers to Portugal)

No, we are taking Industry either built or repaired by us. The industry will not move far, just over the river into Scandic Kiel and Schleswig so any residents of the German side of Kiel who work in the industry can take public transportation quite easily and continue to work.

That Industry was made by the citizens of Kiel for the citizens of Kiel. Large amounts of it was made before the Scandic Invasion and thus they should remain in Kiel. If Kiel had been German, Germany would have repaired the industry, as it is for the German people, not the nation of Scandinavia.

We built or repaired every industrial center in Kiel, furthermore we are not really taking them away from the residents in the German side of Kiel, they will remain close enough for any Kiel residents to take public transportation provided by the Scandic government and continue working there on a daily basis. Also, Scandinavia never invaded germany, Germany invaded Denmark in WW3, and after a year long occupation Germany was kicked out by Scandinavia with American support. Do not restart a fire that was just been so recently extingiushed.

We built or repaired every industrial center in Kiel, furthermore we are not really taking them away from the residents in the German side of Kiel, they will remain close enough for any Kiel residents to take public transportation provided by the Scandic government and continue working there on a daily basis. Also, Scandinavia never invaded germany, Germany invaded Denmark in WW3, and after a year long occupation Germany was kicked out by Scandinavia with American support. Do not restart a fire that was just been so recently extingiushed.

The good produced by the German factories in Scandinavia will only serve the German people a small bit. All of their work will go to the benefit of Scandic Fatcats. The only way for Germans to benefit from the factories, and thus keep the economy of Kiel afloat is to let some or all of the factories stay in Kiel or reimburse the citizens of Kiel so that they can reconstruct the stolen factories.

We will only restart a fire if the Scandinavians wish to keep the German people down.

Perhaps these people should have realized the consequences of their vote then? They are lucky that the Scandics are still employing them at all. Its far more than what the German Government that they opted for is doing.

Perhaps these people should have realized the consequences of their vote then? They are lucky that the Scandics are still employing them at all. Its far more than what the German Government that they opted for is doing.

Their vote was to have all of Schleswig-Holstein returned to Germany, industry included.

And is the FNS delegate so naive as to believe that the German Government won't work to restore the industry of Kiel? We are merely demanding compensation so that Kiel can be restored to the way it is.

The industry in Kiel was either built or repaired by Scandinavia with Scandic money and labor. Over the years we have been kind enough to let anyone work regardless of their nationality when we could have reserved jobs for Scandics, and that is a policy we plan on continuing. German workers who live on the German side of Kiel will be welcomed to continue working at thier same positions, we're even providing public transportation to make it easier for the workers to keep their jobs. They will still take home their paychecks, the same paychecks they got before. Kiel's economy will not take as big of a hit as you expect, the only hit being tax revenue which can easily be compensated for by your government which has a budget that dwarfs ours. If we were to give up the industry we built in Kiel, we would lose 10% of our production output, a very hard hit on our economy. We can not accept that. We built or repaired the industry we are going to keep it, although like we've said we are going to do our best to make the transition as easy and as harmless as possible for the citizens in the German half of Kiel.

The French representative believes that the Scandic Union is trying to take too much credit for the economy in Kiel as clearly they dismiss the fact that the private sector had a hand in the construction of industry (Industry came from growth).

So unless the SU's economy has been a command economy without anyone's knowledge we believe the citizens of Kiel have a right to keep what they have built and invested in.

Of course there is the matter of the public sector investment (Social Services) these we believe can be withdrawn within their right.

In addition, any private businessmen in Kiel can choose to move their business from Kiel if they wish to do so, keeping within the rights of the free movement of capital respected by both nations. Although financially we believe this will be unprofitable for them an is thought to be only attempted by the ultra-nationalist or the coerced.

Finally, with considration to these points, we can see that there is little Scandic authority over the businesses in Kiel.

OOC: Actually, only a single industry in Kiel came from growth, the rest were paid for by the SU government. As for little Scandic authority in the German half of Kiel, your right but the problem with that is, the industry isn't in the German half of Kiel, we took it when we left.

ooc
technically, all of the industry in Kiel was damaged at the end of the war and Scandic Union repaired it.

In game terms, if the Scandic Union removes the factories, all of the factories in Kiel would be considered damaged. Germany could repair them, while the Scandic Union gets the factories it removed to place somewhere else. This is a one time thing though.

IC
The US points out that the vote was to determine if the PEOPLE of the area wanted to return to Germany. So in the US opinion, the Scandic Union has a right to remove its investment.

However, the industry is not property of the Scandic Union, no matter how much they subsidized it. It should be up to the people to decide where they want the nation to place it.

(OOC: Even if thats the way it happens, the king has to voice his displeasure, he helped fight the communists after all)

But they were originaly built by the German government (Who were a command economy), so we are looking at Germany spending 24 points a factory and the SU repairing them at 12 points a factory.

But your compramise seems fair along these lines, if that one production centre is exempted and this is spread out so as not to seriously be a burden on Kiel or the German government (a production centre a year or something like that).

Of course this is what I see as fair, Germany can use this argument or reach a different comprimise of their own. Which ever suits them best.

ooc: I'm not necissarily asking for Scandinavia to not take back the factories. I'm asking for compensation after they stole everything. Shit, you're already giving me 30 points for nukes...

IC: The German delegate informs the Scandics that they are merely asking for some compensation to assist the people of Germany so that they can repair their factories, creating even more jobs. If Scandinavia seems so willing to help the Germans get jobs, then they should be more than willing to help the German Government do so.

Russia would like to remind the repersentatives that the SU continues to ignore the St. Petersburg vote.

Russia would like to remind the repersentatives that the SU continues to ignore the St. Petersburg vote.

Pakistan would like to remind the representatives that Russia continues to ignore the Byellorussia vote.

Pakistan would like to remind the representatives that Russia continues to ignore the Byellorussia vote.

Russia by no means has ignored it and was postponing the event until after the German-SU conflict had subsided. Now that the conflict has blown over, Russia can begin the long complicated process of seperation.

While we are unable to provide financial aid for the Portugese people, as we are already giving large amounts of aid elsewhere (Arab League, funding all but the Egyptian part of ALADN). However, we could provide a unit of helicopters to assist in missions in the region, perhaps operating out of Morocco. They could help move peacekeepers, or bring humanitarian supplies to the people.

The SU is already paying Germany a massive amount of money in compensation(30 points) which would be more than enough for the people of Kiel, even without any outside compensation, the German economy is so big that the growth it produces in just a couple months would make up for anyything lost in Kiel.

The SU is already paying Germany a massive amount of money in compensation(30 points) which would be more than enough for the people of Kiel, even without any outside compensation, the German economy is so big that the growth it produces in just a couple months would make up for anyything lost in Kiel.

The 30 points given to Germany is compensation for Germany agreeing to disassemble its nuclear program.

That and the issue of Kiel are two separate issues. Even though Germany is able to help rebuild Kiel, it does not keep Scandinavia from its moral duty to help the people of Kiel.

Russia would like to remind the UN body that while Russia continues to respect the UN votes in regards to Russian territory, the SU has yet to do so except when they were under the threat of violence by Germany. Russia hopes that it will not be forced into doing the same especially if it is do to UN inaction.

Russia would like to remind the UN body that while Russia continues to respect the UN votes in regards to Russian territory, the SU has yet to do so except when they were under the threat of violence by Germany. Russia hopes that it will not be forced into doing the same especially if it is do to UN inaction.

The US government supports the Russian position

China puts forth a motion to directly address the Russian situation with St. Petersburg and Byelorussia in hopes that the last portions of the "Plebsicites" will finally be put to rest.

The Kingdom would want to ask the people of Bielorussia, Russia and the governments involved if Bielorussia really desires or is ready to make such a step towards independence at this time.
If independence is the necessary choice than it must be with care and concern that the new Bielorussian Government is stabile and hopefully willing to resolve their conflicts with others in a manner that is legitimate in nature and in a peaceful manner with war being the final option after all other avenues have been exhasted[sic].
If not, other options must be made available to protect everyone's welfare in the Bielorussian provinces as well as serve in the best interests of the world...

We will also give special aid to the people of Portugal in this time of strife and civil unrest with the help of the other nations involved in the effort.

OOC: I am still here and still playing Bulgaria...

the US places a resolution before the Security Council calling for intervention into Portugal by the US, UK, and Brazil if the factions in that civil war do not agree to have a cease fire and actually put one in place by March 1.

US and British forces would disarm factions that resist or continue fighting, and then Brazil would take over Portugal as a UN Mandate until order and peace is restored and an elected government put in place.

Meanwhile, the US Navy concentrates 6 helicopter carriers, 2 battleships, 2 carrier battlegroups, 2 amphibious groups, the 2nd Marine Division, 82nd Airborne Division, 101st Airborne Division, and 2nd Infantry Division as well as the 7th Army HQ at ports and airfields along the US East Coast and Iceland.

2 Transport groups are sent to Brazil to be in place to load their troops. This information is not hidden from the news media.

<snip>

South Africa supports the US proposal.

There is one problem that this resolution will not deal with. The refugees fleeing the country will likely increase dramatically. We doubt the Spanish government can deal with these large amounts easily, and the trio of nations intervening may not be able to commit large portions of their forces to camp security. Perhaps the French Foreign Legion and other UN peacekeepers could be stationed in Spain, along the border, to deal with the refugee problems.

OOC: I guess this doesn't really have a place considering Germany's not on the SC but...

IC: The Kaiserin offers two of her handpicked Imperial Guard Paratroopers as border guards or even peacekeepers to assist in the pacification of Portugal. She boasts that they are the best trained, best disciplined and best equipped soldiers in the world and would do perfectly in combat situations. (That and I want to see how they do in combat)

There is one problem that this resolution will not deal with. The refugees fleeing the country will likely increase dramatically. We doubt the Spanish government can deal with these large amounts easily, and the trio of nations intervening may not be able to commit large portions of their forces to camp security. Perhaps the French Foreign Legion and other UN peacekeepers could be stationed in Spain, along the border, to deal with the refugee problems.

The US will support the deployment of the permanent peace keeping force (the Foreign Legion), plus the deployment of Canadian, Irish, French, German and Italian troops (figure a brigade each would do it along with the Spanish Army)

We vote in favour with hopes of a swift ending.

A paratrooper brigade is ready to be airlifted using the old Handley Page Hastings Transport.

the US places a resolution before the Security Council calling for intervention into Portugal by the US, UK, and Brazil if the factions in that civil war do not agree to have a cease fire and actually put one in place by March 1.

Britain approves (obviously) and readies troops (in a blatent manner) for possible deployment. These will include the entire British Expeditionary force viz:

BEF
Headquarters Staff [HQ UNIT]
1st (Royal Marine Mechanised) Independent Brigade [Mechanised marines]
2nd (Air Assault) Independent Brigade [Airborne]
3rd (Royal Ghurkha Rifles) Independent Brigade [Mountain]
1st Army Air Transport Support Detachment, Westland Wessex helicopters and pilots [Helicopter unit and pilots]

Also several vessels from the Atlantic and Home fleets will provide support:

2 Heavy Carrier Battlegroups (HMS Ark Royal, HMS King George VI) with Bucanneer light bombers and pilots
1 Fleet carrier battlegroup (HMS Vindictive) for the army helicopters
2 Heavy missile Cruisers(HMS Raleigh, HMS Frobisher)
2 Light Missile Cruisers (HMS Edinburgh, HMS Falmouth)
Amphibious shipping unit

Finally the Strategic Reserve (regulars) will provide 2 divisions of troops:

4th (mechanised) division, 10th, 11th, 12th (mechanised) brigades, 2bns Cheshire Regiment, 2bns Worcestershire Regiment, 2bns Sherwood Foresters, 2bns Staffordshire Regiment, 1bn Yorkshire Regiment. 9 battalions total.

5th (mechanised) division, 13th, 14th, 15th (mechanised) brigades, 2bns The Royal Sussex Regiment, 2bns Middlesex Regiment, 2bns Queen's Royal Surrey Regiment, 2bns East Anglian Regiment, 1bn Queen's Own Buffs, 9 battalions total.

The Admiralty notes that this is likely to be the last outing in the RN of conventionally powered cruisers and carriers due to the replacement of all of them later this year by nuclear powered vessels.

Russia would like to remind the UN body that while Russia continues to respect the UN votes in regards to Russian territory, the SU has yet to do so except when they were under the threat of violence by Germany. Russia hopes that it will not be forced into doing the same especially if it is do to UN inaction.

We ask that you hold off on this issue. We just came from the brink of war with Germany over an issue that now seems to not yet have been completely resolved. You have just had elections. Let us resolve our issues with Germany first, an issue which with Germanies history of threatening war on us is taking priority.

OOC:You realize that elections never actually took place right in Petrograd?

as no veto occured, the US, UK and Brazil intervene and conquer Portugal in order to restore order and disarm the various factions in the civil strife. Brazil will handle the nation building effort, with some US and (I assume) UK assistance

OOC: Cylea and I should be given an updated list of UN members (divided in World Regions and Continents) including the Permanent members to help with figuring out the Security Council seats...

OOC: China, UK, US, FNS, and South Africa are the permanent members. For everyone else, your best bet is the main page and NPC thread. Cylea might also have a list from mapping E20.

IC:

I have news from Bogota, my friends. As you already know, several nations have met there to discuss the PLO and the violence in Palestine. While they have not yet come to an agreement, both the PLO and the United Republican government agree that the presence of a UN peacekeeping force, present in the city since 1948 (ooc: I think), has only caused discontent among the people living there, rather contrary to its original purpose.

We would ask that the Security Council make a motion to remove the peacekeepers by January 1, 1960.

OOC: China, UK, US, FNS, and South Africa are the permanent members. For everyone else, your best bet is the main page and NPC thread. Cylea might also have a list from mapping E20.

IC:

I have news from Bogota, my friends. As you already know, several nations have met there to discuss the PLO and the violence in Palestine. While they have not yet come to an agreement, both the PLO and the United Republican government agree that the presence of a UN peacekeeping force, present in the city since 1948 (ooc: I think), has only caused discontent among the people living there, rather contrary to its original purpose.

We would ask that the Security Council make a motion to remove the peacekeepers by January 1, 1960.


Do the peacekeepers cause discontent with some of the people, all of the people or just a few particularly violent and vocal people? Asks the US UN Ambassador Adlai Stevenson

Do the peacekeepers cause discontent with some of the people, all of the people or just a few particularly violent and vocal people? Asks the US UN Ambassador Adlai Stevenson

I'll go with choice 4 - A large portion of the muslim world. Imagine having the second holiest site on the planet garrisoned by people of a faith that oppose you. Don't forget all the crusader sites in the city, which would remind the muslim citizens of the horrors and barbarianism.

I'll go with choice 4 - A large portion of the muslim world. Imagine having the second holiest site on the planet garrisoned by people of a faith that oppose you. Don't forget all the crusader sites in the city, which would remind the muslim citizens of the horrors and barbarianism.

Perhaps they should realize that there are other religions on this planet that worship the same place. Didn't The Prophet Mohammad (Peace be upon him) spread the word of tolerance of others beliefs; Wasn't this also written in the Koran?

South Africa puts forward a resolution the General Assembly, calling for Belgian withdrawl from the Congo. The resolution is worded in a similar manner to previous calls by the Nigerian and United Republic governments, though South Africa seeks to add the implied moral and international authority of the United Nations to such demands.

The essentials of the resolution are as follows:


Belgium shall agree to "total independence" for Congo-Leopoldville.
Belgian military and security forces are to withdraw from Congo by 1 July 1958.
Belgian civil servants are to hand over duties and powers to Congolese officials no later than 1 January 1959.
A committee of United Nations member states shall oversee the removal of Belgian governmental structures, and subsequent elections.
Costs for transfer of Belgian military and civil personnel shall be paid by the independent Congolese government, after verification of legitimacy by the standing UN commission.


South Africa understands that the last point will be a source of contention, but the Republic is of the opinion that if Congo-Leopoldville is unwilling to pay anything for their independence, then they should not be afforded the opportunity.

We ask South Africans not to be too hasty, as unlike Portugal Belgium is a respectable democratic country and we are sure that a deal can be worked out with them, we do not want to see an escelation of conflict in neither Africa nor in Europe.

At any rate, we believe that it must be observed first whether and how much has independance benefited the two new fledgling nations of Angola and Mozambique, for this we call on a comitee to be formed to observe the progress of the two nations, from this we can learn to better ourselves and obtain better results.

We ask South Africans not to be too hasty, as unlike Portugal Belgium is a respectable democratic country and we are sure that a deal can be worked out with them, we do not want to see an escelation of conflict in neither Africa nor in Europe.

At any rate, we believe that it must be observed first whether and how much has independance benefited the two new fledgling nations of Angola and Mozambique, for this we call on a comitee to be formed to observe the progress of the two nations, from this we can learn to better ourselves and obtain better results.

The UR ambassador, insulted, speaks up:

"Are you implying that Africans can not govern themselves? I do believe that the African nations have model governments compared to the likes of France. If you're looking for an African nation to study, why not look at the United Republics or South Africa or Nigeria or even Ethiopia? Why sit and deny the Congo's freedom from imperialism while you study other Africans like lab mice?

Let's think back to when the Pact was destroyed and France was occupied for a year. Their crimes - joining in a massive war to spread communism across the world. Now let's think about the Congo. It's only crime was being less technologically advanced than Europe. It has been occupied by Belgium for over 50 years. What world do we live in that people are considered less important, less intelligent, less free just because of the color of their skin? You have no other reasons to want the Congo to remain under control of a nation thousands of miles away. You have no reason to fear an increase in African nationalism, as you have no African colonies. You have no rivalry with the Congo. You can not fear a major war, for Belgium can not oppress the rebellion and the Congo isn't capable of invading another nation, let alone you. Congo's independence won't throw the world into an economic depression or global war or even harm itself. It will simply break the rusty chains of imperialism that weigh the nation down."

Perhaps they should realize that there are other religions on this planet that worship the same place. Didn't The Prophet Mohammad (Peace be upon him) spread the word of tolerance of others beliefs; Wasn't this also written in the Koran?

This gets a grin from the US Ambassador

Perhaps they should realize that there are other religions on this planet that worship the same place. Didn't The Prophet Mohammad (Peace be upon him) spread the word of tolerance of others beliefs; Wasn't this also written in the Koran?

Yeah, and so did Jesus. Guess who started this? Christians invaded the Middle East. The Koran says not to be the aggressor. However, when attacked, you slay those infidel bastards. (I don't think bastard is written in there, though).

South Africa puts forward a resolution the General Assembly, calling for Belgian withdrawl from the Congo. The resolution is worded in a similar manner to previous calls by the Nigerian and United Republic governments, though South Africa seeks to add the implied moral and international authority of the United Nations to such demands.

The essentials of the resolution are as follows:


Belgium shall agree to "total independence" for Congo-Leopoldville.
Belgian military and security forces are to withdraw from Congo by 1 July 1958.
Belgian civil servants are to hand over duties and powers to Congolese officials no later than 1 January 1959.
A committee of United Nations member states shall oversee the removal of Belgian governmental structures, and subsequent elections.
Costs for transfer of Belgian military and civil personnel shall be paid by the independent Congolese government, after verification of legitimacy by the standing UN commission.


South Africa understands that the last point will be a source of contention, but the Republic is of the opinion that if Congo-Leopoldville is unwilling to pay anything for their independence, then they should not be afforded the opportunity.

The Nigerian government puts its full support behind this resolution and urges the United Nations to pass it.

The UR ambassador, insulted, speaks up:

"Are you implying that Africans can not govern themselves? I do believe that the African nations have model governments compared to the likes of France. If you're looking for an African nation to study, why not look at the United Republics or South Africa or Nigeria or even Ethiopia? Why sit and deny the Congo's freedom from imperialism while you study other Africans like lab mice?

Let's think back to when the Pact was destroyed and France was occupied for a year. Their crimes - joining in a massive war to spread communism across the world. Now let's think about the Congo. It's only crime was being less technologically advanced than Europe. It has been occupied by Belgium for over 50 years. What world do we live in that people are considered less important, less intelligent, less free just because of the color of their skin? You have no other reasons to want the Congo to remain under control of a nation thousands of miles away. You have no reason to fear an increase in African nationalism, as you have no African colonies. You have no rivalry with the Congo. You can not fear a major war, for Belgium can not oppress the rebellion and the Congo isn't capable of invading another nation, let alone you. Congo's independence won't throw the world into an economic depression or global war or even harm itself. It will simply break the rusty chains of imperialism that weigh the nation down."

We implied no such thing and apologise if we have caused you any discomfort. But please do not put word into our mouths as we have not belittled anyone due to their colour, inteligence ...etc. We are also most displeased with your "History Lesson" which can be regarded as an insult to the whole French People.

The question we ask is due to the fact that several nations seem more eager than the Congloese themselves for independance. As we have not seen any actions by them indicating their complete wilingness for independance rather than their displeasure with Belgian Colonial policies indicating the need for some nessecery reforms. The Situation has also seen some improvement as France has and is sending aid to provide social services to the Region.

So since the situation is indeed getting better with only some reforms required to take place to grant the Congloese more experiance in self-governance and affairs of the State, Why call for drastic measures and immediate independance which could potentially lead to violence, as it is not as you say we do not believe that Belgium will neither stand idle or allow its government to collapse as in Portugal, both cases are deemed unacceptable by France and we will work to help our neighbor and trading partner.

We are now working on alternative route, one we hope the UN shall consider, talks between France and Belgium are underway in which France shall compensate the government of Belgium for any economic loss while France shall take over the task of initiaing reforms in the African Colony, creating a congloese government and eventually granting them independance while devolping the economy of the country, this we admit will take a longer period of time but will result in a more prosperous and effective nation.

Yeah, and so did Jesus. Guess who started this? Christians invaded the Middle East. The Koran says not to be the aggressor. However, when attacked, you slay those infidel bastards. (I don't think bastard is written in there, though).

The Pakistani ambassador strongly urges that this argument should not change to that about religion. In Pakistan, we have 120 million Muslims living alongside 280 million Hindu's, and we all get along until radicals start trying to use religion to tear us apart. It happened once before, and our government is steadfast in its belief that radicalism will not only lead to the destruction of Pakistan, but possibly even civilization as we know it.

Radicalism is the problem, as the Pakistanis are keen to point out. Radicalism is rife here because, unlike many nations recovering from Communist regimes, Arab nations have lacked any national identity for the better part of a millenium, spending most of the time under Turkish control. Many are searching for a new identity. Some, in Egypt, Baghdad, and Arabia, have gone with pan-Arabism. We have opted for secularism, but some seek political guidance from their religion, hardly something European nations have been innocent of.

However, there has been massive progress in the Arab world since independence. In fifteen years there has been a more remarkable transformation here than anywhere else in the world. We went from backwater nations to technological centers of development. A Syrian entered outer space this year, only eight years behind the ESA. The Congo can do the same thing, provided the international community feels responsible enough to help them. A nation can not suddenly exist out of nowhere, it needs infrastructure and support, something the Belgians may not have provided.

China puts forth its support behind Congoese independence, and the right of the Congo to govern itself independent from Belgium, a nation thousands of miles away across deserts, mountains, and a large sea.

In addition, China wishes to discuss the Jerusalem occupation issue in more detail.

Yeah, and so did Jesus. Guess who started this? Christians invaded the Middle East. The Koran says not to be the aggressor. However, when attacked, you slay those infidel bastards. (I don't think bastard is written in there, though).

Christians and Jews lived in Palestine and Jerusalem before the Koran was even written. Muslims have no more right to the city than Christians, it should stay the way it is, an international city for everyone.

On the subject of Jerusalem, South Africa offers the use of a small multi-religious security force to preserve order in Jerusalem; a combined force of Christians, Muslims, and Jews would be sent. South Africa has had no official involvement in the region, and thus would be free of bias against the various factions.

OOC: South African mercenaries did fight for the Ottoman Empire in Palestine during the first Great War, but that fact will go unmentioned by the South African delegate to the UN.

On the subject of Jerusalem, South Africa offers the use of a small multi-religious security force to preserve order in Jerusalem; a combined force of Christians, Muslims, and Jews would be sent. South Africa has had no official involvement in the region, and thus would be free of bias against the various factions.

OOC: South African mercenaries did fight for the Ottoman Empire in Palestine during the first Great War, but that fact will go unmentioned by the South African delegate to the UN.

China seconds this and wishes to add a stipulation to this.

The security force is to be comprised of equal numbers of each religion. For instance, 100 Christians, 100 Muslims, and 100 Jews. Basically a ratio of 1 to 1 to 1 (1:1:1) would be perfect.

Yes, people of all religions have a right to be in the city, and to feel safe there. A multi-religion approach would likely work best, but the issue for many is armed soldiers from another nation in their lands. How many Catholics would approve of Syrian tanks lining St. Peter's Square? I doubt many in Scandanavia would approve of Japanese soldiers in Stockholm.

Another problem with the multi-religion approach exists in the Christian delegation. How many seats should go to the Protestants, to the Catholics, to the Copts, or the Orthodox? Where will the Druze fit in? The United Republics guarantees equal rights for all denominations, and all races. By removing the armed soldiers from the city tensions would be much improved.

The threat that the peacekeepers were installed to prevent, extremist rule in the holy land, ended ten years ago. Most peacekeepers in former pact countries were removed before ten years had passed, why should it be any different here?

China points out a possible solution to the Christian problem.

Suppose a Christian force is approximately 1000 men, or has 100 "seats" then split these equally between all the major denimonations.

1000 soldiers.

200 Protestants
200 Catholics
200 Lutherans
200 Orthodox
200 Other christians

Likewise for "seats".

Christians and Jews lived in Palestine and Jerusalem before the Koran was even written. Muslims have no more right to the city than Christians, it should stay the way it is, an international city for everyone.

By international, do you mean UN? Did you ever think who controls the UN - rich, white christians. Now how would that be less biased than being under secular rule, who do not judge pilgrims differently?

Yes, people of all religions have a right to be in the city, and to feel safe there. A multi-religion approach would likely work best, but the issue for many is armed soldiers from another nation in their lands. How many Catholics would approve of Syrian tanks lining St. Peter's Square? I doubt many in Scandanavia would approve of Japanese soldiers in Stockholm.

Another problem with the multi-religion approach exists in the Christian delegation. How many seats should go to the Protestants, to the Catholics, to the Copts, or the Orthodox? Where will the Druze fit in? The United Republics guarantees equal rights for all denominations, and all races. By removing the armed soldiers from the city tensions would be much improved.

The threat that the peacekeepers were installed to prevent, extremist rule in the holy land, ended ten years ago. Most peacekeepers in former pact countries were removed before ten years had passed, why should it be any different here?

The United Republics humbly agree with Syria. Many delegates here seem to have a close-minded view that the Middle East is run by a bunch of extremists when, in realty, most arab governments are secular and have equal rights for all races.

We would also like to call to attention the fact that, in the Arab world, unlike in America, a Nigerian and a Frenchman could eat together at the same restaurant, or send their children to the same school, which, incidentally, is of equal quality to most Western schools.

China once again points out that it has been neutral during the Arabian situation, and did not pass any pre-emptive judgement aganist the Arabians. Besides, China is a permament security council member, which means the whole UN isn't necessarily White Christians.

China re-initerates that it will support Arabian proposals of an equal religion based security force.

We believe that system will work well as a method to decrease tensions, but the problem will not be solved at this point. However, we are curious to ask about what China means by "seats," as the democratically elected Palestinian government should be able to govern the city effectively.

We believe that system will work well as a method to decrease tensions, but the problem will not be solved at this point. However, we are curious to ask about what China means by "seats," as the democratically elected Palestinian government should be able to govern the city effectively.

China clarifies.

Perhaps the peace-keeping problem could be solved by hiring indigieous Christians, Jews, and Muslims from Jerusalem and its surrounding areas?

As for "seats", perhaps if there is a religious council or advisory council to aid the government in law-making and such to avoid unfair and unjust laws aganist a particular religion or faith?

While the United Republics could better comment on this, it should also play a role in solving disputes between religious groups over holy sites

(OOC: Despite what you hear about Jews and Muslims fighting in Palestine, the Christians are just as bad. Monks go at each other with weapons over who should have the right to have Mass in a church on a given holiday)

While the United Republics could better comment on this, it should also play a role in solving disputes between religious groups over holy sites

(OOC: Despite what you hear about Jews and Muslims fighting in Palestine, the Christians are just as bad. Monks go at each other with weapons over who should have the right to have Mass in a church on a given holiday)

China adds yet another proposal in addition to the one it already made.

Construct a church, monastery, or mosque for each particular religion so to reduce and minimize the religious tensions as everybody will have their own place to worship in.

China clarifies.

Perhaps the peace-keeping problem could be solved by hiring indigieous Christians, Jews, and Muslims from Jerusalem and its surrounding areas?

As for "seats", perhaps if there is a religious council or advisory council to aid the government in law-making and such to avoid unfair and unjust laws aganist a particular religion or faith?

Maybe you're not understanding:

Why send multiple forces from different religions when you can have a single, secular force? In fact, this isn't even the issue right now, it's the ownership of the city. Last but not least, here's a link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=474221) to the UR factbook. Please read the Republican Charter, which hasn't changed since 1951 and guarantees equal treatment of people of all races and religions. Not to mention that even laws in Palestine can be overthrown if the Egyptian and Sudanese government votes against them, which are both run by Nassarite parties and which both have 15%+ of their population as Christians and Jews.

As if that isn't enough, think about where the UR's food comes from - the US. The United States is mostly Christian and has a Christian government. If we started a massacre of Christians, one embargo from them would cause an explosion of famine and starvation throughout the nation. With that type of insurance, you could probably rest assured that you won't see any concentration camps being built in the UR.

China adds yet another proposal in addition to the one it already made.

Construct a church, monastery, or mosque for each particular religion so to reduce and minimize the religious tensions as everybody will have their own place to worship in.

While the United Republican point is important, I feel this must be addressed. It is not that there are not enough facilities, it is that the existing facilities are very sacred to those around them. The Chuch of the Nativity, for example, is always disputed by Christian groups. This council could determine a cycle (1958 is Catholic, then Orthodox, then Protestant, etc.)

If it is the fear of Americans and the UK withholding food supplies to the UR and Syria, China would be more than happy to take up the slack.

--------------------------------

OOC:

I was always confused by the word "secular" but after looking it up on Google, I now understand it to mean "atheist" of sorts. So I'll change my proposal to reflect a security force comprised entirely by atheists drawn from Egypt and Syria instead of foreign troops.

So am I to understand the major issue is whether Syria, Egypt, or Palestine owning Jerusalem, correct?

My apologies for misinterpreting the whole issue.

OOC: Secular usually, in this sense means not affected by religion (separation of church and state)

I have no claims over Jerusalem, Im involved as a Muslim nation, an Arab nation, a nation threatened by the PLO, and because my war to oust the Grand Mufti back in 1947 played a role in this.

While the United Republican point is important, I feel this must be addressed. It is not that there are not enough facilities, it is that the existing facilities are very sacred to those around them. The Chuch of the Nativity, for example, is always disputed by Christian groups. This council could determine a cycle (1958 is Catholic, then Orthodox, then Protestant, etc.)

I think a good idea would be to hold a vote on the two possible solutions...

1. The cycle proposal

2. The area proposal

What I mean by "area proposal" is that an adjacent church is to be built next to the holy site for each religion, so that they can worship within "sight" of the holy site while allowing for no interruptions of their particular sermons and such.

Perhaps a combination of the two proposals would work?

The UR is Muslim ,whether it is secular or not, it is Muslim as are the Grand majority of its people. Putting Jerusalem under the UR's control means putting it under Muslim control, even if it is under secular muslim control it is Muslim control nonetheless.

Leave Jerusalem as an international city, let it be free from all nations. Instead of a military peacekeeping force let the city raise its own police force, one that if needed can be funded by the U.N. unless the city can handle the costs it self. Let Jerusalem elect its own government with a constitution that explicity keeps it a free city and keeps it open to all.

Both the UR and Syria have so loudly proclaimed there love of democracy, prove it now and let Jerusalem be a free city with its own democracy backed by the U.N.

We would support the move if the people themselves would prefer it that way, not if that is simply what the international community wishes.

I think a good idea would be to hold a vote on the two possible solutions...

1. The cycle proposal

2. The area proposal

What I mean by "area proposal" is that an adjacent church is to be built next to the holy site for each religion, so that they can worship within "sight" of the holy site while allowing for no interruptions of their particular sermons and such.

Perhaps a combination of the two proposals would work?

Segregated areas would probably cause more problems and would severely overcrowd the already crowded city. How about the pilgrims get along or they get thrown in jail? It's worked for centuries before all this mess started with the christians and their crusades and then the muslims responding with ji-hads and you know the rest. And cycles wouldn't work because the City Council of Jerusalem is elected democratically, and democracy can't exist if certain groups HAVE to take office on certain years. While the Chinese delegate has good intentions, I don't think those proposals would work.

The UR is Muslim ,whether it is secular or not, it is Muslim as are the Grand majority of its people. Putting Jerusalem under the UR's control means putting it under Muslim control, even if it is under secular muslim control it is Muslim control nonetheless.

Leave Jerusalem as an international city, let it be free from all nations. Instead of a military peacekeeping force let the city raise its own police force, one that if needed can be funded by the U.N. unless the city can handle the costs it self. Let Jerusalem elect its own government with a constitution that explicity keeps it a free city and keeps it open to all.

Both the UR and Syria have so loudly proclaimed there love of democracy, prove it now and let Jerusalem be a free city with its own democracy backed by the U.N.

Why are you so bent on getting Jerusalem out of muslim hands? Muslims have ruled the city much less biased than when the city was under Christian and Jewish control. Jerusalem is a city of Arabs and should be under Arab countrol, not foreign occupation. And the SU has no room to talk about democracy. Let's think back to last year's plebicites. The SU wasn't too happy about giving away one of their cities. Now let's think about Jerusalem, the center of Palestine, the heart of the arab world, and one of the largest cities of the Middle East.

Now let's think about Jerusalem, the center of Palestine, the heart of the arab world, and one of the largest cities of the Middle East.

The heart of Christianity and the ex-capital and home of the Jews. The place where Jesus was crucified. It belong to everyone, to all three religions not just to the Muslims. You have no right to sole control over the city.

And as for the crusades, Muslims have been involved in countless invasions and massacress of Christian Europe dating back before the crusades. Don't bring up things like that, because Muslims are just as guilty.

Segregated areas would probably cause more problems and would severely overcrowd the already crowded city. How about the pilgrims get along or they get thrown in jail? It's worked for centuries before all this mess started with the christians and their crusades and then the muslims responding with ji-hads and you know the rest. And cycles wouldn't work because the City Council of Jerusalem is elected democratically, and democracy can't exist if certain groups HAVE to take office on certain years. While the Chinese delegate has good intentions, I don't think those proposals would work.

China clarifies again.

Syria offered an concept to China about the "cycles". This proposal would mean that one religious group gets to worship in a holy site. For instance, Orthodoxs worship in the Church of Nativity in 1958 (the sermons, Mass, prayers, etc.) then the Protestants get to have the church to themselves in 1959, then the Catholics in 1960, and so on.

This is what Syria proposed to China (this was their idea).

In a democracy, people are free to elect anyone they want. Egypt's immigration laws allow entrance regardless of religion. Control should belong to the people who live there, not only those of those three religions but to Atheists, Hindus, or any other group living there too. That is what democracy is about. Muslims, Christians, and Jews get along fine in Syria, voting for each other and working together in a democratic system, the same occurs in Palestine, Egypt, and, hopefully, in Scandanavia.

Although the Qur'an does not mention the name "Jerusalem", the hadith specify that it was from Jerusalem that Muhammad ascended to heaven in the Night Journey, or Isra and Miraj. The city was one of the Arab Caliphate's first conquests in 638 CE; according to Arab historians of the time, the Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab personally went to the city to receive its submission, cleaning out and praying at the Temple Mount in the process. Sixty years later, the Dome of the Rock was built, a structure in which there lies the stone where Muhammad is said to have tethered his mount Buraq during the Isra. This is also reputed to be the place where Abraham went to sacrifice his son (Isaac in the Jewish tradition, Ishmael in the Muslim one.) Note that the octagonal and gold-sheeted Dome is not the same thing as the Al-Aqsa Mosque beside it, which was built more than three centuries later. Umar ibn al-Khattab also allowed the Jews entry into the city and freedom to live and worship after four hundred years. Jews were allowed to move back into their homes.

Under the early centuries of Muslim rule, especially during the Umayyad (650-750) and Abbasid (750-969) dynasties, the city prospered; the geographers Ibn Hawqal and al-Istakhri (10th century) describe it as "the most fertile province of Palestine", while its native son the geographer al-Muqaddasi (born 946) devoted many pages to its praises in his most famous work, The Best Divisions in the Knowledge of the Climes.

The early Arab period was also one of religious tolerance. However, in the early 11th century, the Egyptian Fatimid Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ordered the destruction of all churches and synagogues in Jerusalem, a policy reversed by his successors. Reports of this were one cause of the First Crusade, which marched off from Europe to the area, and, on July 15, 1099, Christian soldiers took Jerusalem after a difficult one month siege. They then proceeded to slaughter most of the city's Muslim and Jewish inhabitants.

One muslim leader was a bigot over a rule of 500 years. EVERY christian leader that conquered Jerusalem slaughtered the muslims and jews (do a little research on the brave and noble Richard the Lionheart to see why he's not to popular in the world of Islam). Perhaps the SU should choose an ambassador with a better history of the conflict.

In a democracy, people are free to elect anyone they want. Egypt's immigration laws allow entrance regardless of religion. Control should belong to the people who live there, not only those of those three religions but to Atheists, Hindus, or any other group living there too. That is what democracy is about. Muslims, Christians, and Jews get along fine in Syria, voting for each other and working together in a democratic system, the same occurs in Palestine, Egypt, and, hopefully, in Scandanavia.

That is exactly what we proposed, that the city be made its own city under its own rule and under its own democracy with its independance gauranteed by the world comunity and the U.N. with the only clause being the city must let people of all religions worship in its holy sites.

One muslim leader was a bigot over a rule of 500 years. EVERY christian leader that conquered Jerusalem slaughtered the muslims and jews (do a little research on the brave and noble Richard the Lionheart to see why he's not to popular in the world of Islam). Perhaps the SU should choose an ambassador with a better history of the conflict.

You are right, Christians did commit many acts that we are not proud of during the crusades, but Muslims have just as guilty of a history. Look at what occured when Constantinople surrendered in 1453 to Muslim forces after being promised that every citizen of the city would be spared. Or the history of the Janiserrie corp, Christian slave soldiers and the Greek and Armenian Christians who lived under Muslim rule.

Both our religions have histories we should be ashamed of, so all we are asking is that the UR representative stop bringing up the crusades and bashing all Christians under what happened during them, we have refrained from bringing up incidents of a similar nature that were prosecuted by Muslims.

My point is that you are accusing the UR of being racist when aren't. We do not hold muslims over christians, and in fact hold many of the Christian and Jewish holy sites. The UR has a much more religiously diverse population than the SU ever has, and you have no right to say that us controlling one of our main cities is taking away a part of christianity. We still control Alexandria, Nazareth, and dozens of more important Christian cities but do you see death camps surrounding them? How about segregated holy sites or even employment descrimination? No. The truth is that Jerusalem is a part of the Arab World and shall return to Arab control, no matter how much of bigotry you claim we'll enforce!

We are not calling the UR a nation of bigots, far from you, you have a great track record so far. Jerusalem has been an international city for years now, why all of a sudden do you want to change that? If anything, if you care at all for the people of the city, let them become a free entity, their own democracy. Let the people of Jerusalem rule themselves.

We are not calling the UR a nation of bigots, far from you, you have a great track record so far. Jerusalem has been an international city for years now, why all of a sudden do you want to change that? If anything, if you care at all for the people of the city, let them become a free entity, their own democracy. Let the people of Jerusalem rule themselves.

Yes, and while we're at it, how about New York City becomes it's own entity. It's richer and more populated than multiple nations and is larger than a dozen average cities combined. How about Tokyo or Berlin? I'm sure a million new "entities" would spring up if we just started handing out independence to any city that might want it. Second of all, why would the PLO exist if Jerusalem wanted independence so badly? Even two dozen rioters wouldn't have turned this into an international issue. It takes crowds and major riots. How do you think Jerusalem would feel watching the UR around them spring into prosperity and rise to become one of the major powers of Africa and the Middle East? Jerusalem didn't willingly leave Palestine, it was taken from them after the Arab-Palestinian War as a punishment for attacking Syria. Why is Palestine still being punished now that it has a new government, a new nations, and even a new generation?

The German ambassador stands.

"Gentlemen!

Are we not all civilized men here? Surely we can solve this issue without further mudslinging!

If I may propose that a plebicide be held in Jerusalem, the same way such a plebicide was held in many other nations and cities, to decide whether or not to make Jerusalem an independant city. If they choose to become independant, the UN will pay for its police force to ensure that no more radicals slaughter those who they do not agree with, as has been the case for 2000 years!

If however, the citizens decide to remain a part of the UR, the UR will maintain a police force in the area to ensure the same thing."

Ambassador Stevenson decides to respond to a few things...

1. Regarding the Crusades, the historical record actually shows that the Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem was respectful for the most part of rights of Jews and Moslems and the various sects of Christianity. (ooc, the movie Kingdom of Heaven is actually very accurate in regard to history)

2. The most peaceful period in the Holy Land was actually under the rule of the Ottoman Turks. After all, they are Moslem, and they kept the Holy Places open to all.

3. The reason the state of Palestine doesn't exist is because two Moslem nations conquered and partitioned it. Only then was Jerusalem internationalized. The reason that occured is because of barbaric behavior by the Palestinian government. The PLO has not had a good track record in this matter either.

The United States doesn't espouse any religion, however, many Americans are Christian, and the US also is home to a significiant number of Jews. In fact, New York City is the home of the largest Jewish population in the world. But in reference to the comments from Egypt, New York City isn't a city considered Holy by anyone.

As a government that represents millions of Christians and Jews, the US government feels that any solution to Jerusalem MUST guarantee that all who wish to come and worship and make a pilgramage there have the opportunity to do so. The US government will take a hard line against any government or entity that prevents this.

If the proposes Palestinian government can pledge to honor such a guarentee, the US has no objections to Jerusalem losing its international status and becoming part of a Palestinian state.

Nigeria offers to provide a mixed unit of Muslims and Christians to act as peacekeepers in Jerusalem and keep the peace until such a time as it either becomes an independent city or some decision is reached regarding its governance.

As a government that represents millions of Christians and Jews, the US government feels that any solution to Jerusalem MUST guarantee that all who wish to come and worship and make a pilgramage there have the opportunity to do so. The US government will take a hard line against any government or entity that prevents this.

If the proposes Palestinian government can pledge to honor such a guarentee, the US has no objections to Jerusalem losing its international status and becoming part of a Palestinian state.

The UR has already promised to do so and will uphold it's promises as has already demonstrated in the multiple other holy sites under it's control.

Anyway, can we get back to the Belgian Congo issue? :rolleyes:

We feel the Congo is not economically strong enough to survive in the current world, this is why we ask the UN to allow us to industrlise the area before granting independance.

We feel the Congo is not economically strong enough to survive in the current world, this is why we ask the UN to allow us to industrlise the area before granting independance.

Why not allow an African nation to industrialize it? Or better yet, a coalition of African nations? I'm sure that togtehr we can help out our fellow Africans without leaving them in the hands of a European nation.

Why not allow an African nation to industrialize it? Or better yet, a coalition of African nations? I'm sure that togtehr we can help out our fellow Africans without leaving them in the hands of a European nation.

Well I sem to believe that all major African nations have either internal problems or are busy industralising themselves.

Well I sem to believe that all major African nations have either internal problems or are busy industralising themselves.

Excuse me? We are not having internal problems. Neither are our honorable friends, the South Africans. They are having minor issues with some potentially dangerous people. It will not prevent them from helping a burgeoning African country.

And while we are industrializing, we could easily provide some aid to our African neighbors. We are already doing this for Niger and Benin.

Let us be honest, sir. I believe that you intend to make the Congo a client state of France, should you get the chance. And we intend to make sure such a thing does not happen.

The US government remarks that a massive aid project for the Belgian Congo has been budgeted for this year in order to industralize the area (96 points for 4 industrial centers). If the Belgian government promises independence for the Congo within 10 years (which means it will benefit for a while from this themselves)

This is in keeping with the 20 year US history of large scale aid projects for Africa

(ooc the US built damn near everyones industry in Africa so far)

The US government remarks that a massive aid project for the Belgian Congo has been budgeted for this year in order to industralize the area (96 points for 4 industrial centers). If the Belgian government promises independence for the Congo within 10 years (which means it will benefit for a while from this themselves)

This is in keeping with the 20 year US history of large scale aid projects for Africa

(ooc the US built damn near everyones industry in Africa so far)

Nigeria supports the American proposal and thanks the United States for their good will and aid to Africa.

Excuse me? We are not having internal problems. Neither are our honorable friends, the South Africans. They are having minor issues with some potentially dangerous people. It will not prevent them from helping a burgeoning African country.

And while we are industrializing, we could easily provide some aid to our African neighbors. We are already doing this for Niger and Benin.

Let us be honest, sir. I believe that you intend to make the Congo a client state of France, should you get the chance. And we intend to make sure such a thing does not happen.

We are taken aback by this accusation, sir, as we are also providing substantial aid to Senegal, Guinea, Mali and Burkina Faso, we are also offering loans to the Ivory coast.

As for South Africa, we just felt that they have their hands full with Angola and Mozambique (OOC: or is it just Angola?). Your respectable nation is, as you have said, still industralising.

We welcome howeveer the American proposal and back it and if the honorable American representative permit us, we would like to also help the Belgians and Congolese.

We are taken aback by this accusation, sir, as we are also providing substantial aid to Senegal, Guinea, Mali and Burkina Faso, we are also offering loans to the Ivory coast.

As for South Africa, we just felt that they have their hands full with Angola and Mozambique (OOC: or is it just Angola?). Your respectable nation is, as you have said, still industralising.

We welcome howeveer the American proposal and back it and if the honorable American representative permit us, we would like to also help the Belgians and Congolese.

the US proposes, if the Belgians agree, that France assist with money for eduction and government services (ooc, in game terms, pay for level 1 social spending in the Belgian Congo)

the US proposes, if the Belgians agree, that France assist with money for eduction and government services (ooc, in game terms, pay for level 1 social spending in the Belgian Congo)

We'll be happy to allocate funds for Maximum level 4 services.

The United States offers sufficient aid to industralize the Belgain Congo (4 production centers, 96 points) if the Belgian government sets in place a 10 year plan for independence.

ooc
I would think the Belgians would go for this, especially in conjuction with the other pressure being placed on it. ..need ruling by Sharina

My ruling is this (points explained below)...

1. The Belgian Congo has rising national sentiment owing to covert support of nationalist groups.

2. The Congo-ians (or is it Congolese?) realize the American deal would probably be the best, given that America has done quite a lot for Africa in the last 20 years, as well as the UK (the whole "Africa Industrialization" project).

3. Belgium stands to lose quite a bit if it doesn't accept the deals offered it. For instance, embargoes or other various "pressures" can be implemented aganist Belgium until it caves in- next year, 5 years, 10 years, but it *will* happen regardless. The embargoes and "other pressures" would hurt the Belgian commerce, technology development, and economy overall.

4. Factoring all these in, I believe the Belgians would realize that holding onto the Congo would become more problematic than the benefits, because the Belgians would have to deal with constant riots and revolt if it holds onto the Congo (see point #1 above) and worry about souring relations with some of the premier nations in the world (USA, UK, etc.). What's more, they will have a hard time trying to defend Congo from, say, South Africa or the United Republics or other African nations because they would have to ship their troops from Belgium to the Congo which has its own set of problems. The shipment of troops could be interfered with by UK, France, Germany, Italy, etc.


Therefore, I believe that the Belgians will have to let the Congo go mainly because otherwise they would have to deal with rebellion, weak military stand-point, and possibility of alienating potential allies (when Belgium needs them the most) as well as blockades or embargoes or such. However, Belgium will demand some kind of reparations or payment for the loss of the Congo. I believe that if the US, France, South Africa, the UK, etc. gave Belgium a few payment "points" in terms of money (probably around 10 points or so in game terms) then Belgium will take it. They will have to realize that demanding any more like 20, 30, 50 points would be a bad idea (the whole alienating thing). They also realize that 10 points (or even 15) worth of payment would be better than nothing.

---------------------------------

(Cross posted in the NPC thread)

In addition...

A combined French and American aid package wouldn't be a bad idea as long as France doesn't try anything imperialist or such otherwise Congo-ian (or Congolese?) rebellions will continue.

Basically if the USA does the 4 production centers for Congo, and France provides social services (Level 4 if France desires), then that will be good enough for the Congo at least until it can support its own social services and have sufficient "points" to develop other stuff on its own (like its own factories or garrison units or such).

ooc
for convenience, I will handle Congolese builds for a while

We would like to clarify something the US said earlier. Palestine was never "partitioned" nor was any land taken from it by either side. The presiding dictatorship was forced to step down, a democracy guaranteeing equal rights for all was introduced, and Syria's rule over the Glolan Heights was affirmed by the new government. Several years later, the nation of Palestine voluntarily entered the United Republics, as the result of a vote. However, the area around Jerusalem decided to remain independent, unsure about joining the nation so soon after the war. A UN peacekeeping force has remained there since, but it is no more an international city than occupied Paris was after the Third Great War.

The US government remarks that a massive aid project for the Belgian Congo has been budgeted for this year in order to industralize the area (96 points for 4 industrial centers). If the Belgian government promises independence for the Congo within 10 years (which means it will benefit for a while from this themselves)

This is in keeping with the 20 year US history of large scale aid projects for Africa

(ooc the US built damn near everyones industry in Africa so far)

The UR is happy to accept the US's proposal. We are cautious about the French addition, considering they were arguing against Belgium's independence not too long ago and now all of a sudden they're willing to help them gain independence. (I'm sure France isn't buying time for Belgium to sell them the Congo or anything like that :rolleyes: )

The German Ambassador notes that he has recieved word from German Shipbuilders who offer to construct a merchant fleet for the new Congolese Nation, as well as extensive port facilities (1 factory).

(ooc the US built damn near everyones industry in Africa so far)

OOC: Come to think of it, I'm fairly sure South Africa and Egypt are the only African countries that don't owe their economies to the Americans. Damn you, dollar!

IC:
South Africa accepts the US proposal, and offers to assist in the funding of industrialization, et cetera.

IC: Syria is glad to see the progress of decolonization.

OOC: I owe my economy to Germany, thank you very much.

OOC: Come to think of it, I'm fairly sure South Africa and Egypt are the only African countries that don't owe their economies to the Americans. Damn you, dollar!

OOC: Actually, when I first joined, the US/UK had built pretty much everything Egypt owned and since then the US has built me the Aswan High Dam and Egypt and Palestine import about 70% of their food from the US as well. I also get my air force from the US, spy planes, etc. Come to think of it, maybe I rely too much on the US...

OOC: I built you a merchant fleet, remember :)

The UR is happy to accept the US's proposal. We are cautious about the French addition, considering they were arguing against Belgium's independence not too long ago and now all of a sudden they're willing to help them gain independence. (I'm sure France isn't buying time for Belgium to sell them the Congo or anything like that :rolleyes: )

OOC: Aren't we suspicious...

Parthini']OOC: I built you a merchant fleet, remember :)

OOC: Yeah, Germany's bought some ships and helped out the Arab League a lot. Anyone else I owe thanks to?

OOC: Yeah, Germany's bought some ships and helped out the Arab League a lot. Anyone else I owe thanks to?

Speaking of which, I gave the Arab League like 20 points again.

Syria would call for an amendment to requirements to rotating security council seating, stating:

Nations sitting on the Security Council must be compliant with all United Nations Security Council Resolutions, as well as motions made by the UN Human Rights Committee (Council?), and General Assembly motions.

This would include things like the Geneva Conventions, the NPT, plebicites, and such. Note to the permanent members (ooc:*cough* South Africa) this is a requirement for rotating members only at this point, although the wording could be changed.

France extends a slightly controversial proposal...

Recently most UN actions depended on the millitary forces of the larger dominating powers, to strengthen the UN's role we suggest that the UN has its own force expanded so that this dependance is cut.

The UN is proposed to have its own navy, army and airforce.

France extends a slightly controversial proposal...

Recently most UN actions depended on the millitary forces of the larger dominating powers, to strengthen the UN's role we suggest that the UN has its own force expanded so that this dependance is cut.

The UN is proposed to have its own navy, army and airforce.

the Australian delegate enquires as to what populations this armed forces would be drawn...

ooc: for those of you who curious to why this post was made at this strange hour, there was the mother of all fire alarms at my rice dorm. At 4. In the morning. That lasted an hour. It was dumb. Goodnight now...

These young African nations (excluding Egypt, South Africa and a few others) still will need a lot of help to get their feet on the ground and insure that stabile governments are in place instead of "colonial puppets" or incompetants... The choices should not be up to those colonial powers, but up to the former colonies. Yet these new nations must need help to get started and become stabile members of the World...

The Kingdom also will follow and approve the Amendment from Syria...

We thank Bulgaria for their support. We also find it strange that, in debates over decolonization, the ex-colonial powers, like France, have put very little faith in the ability of local governments to run themselves. Most support comes from ex-colonies, like South Africa, Nigeria, and Egypt. While, initially, the independent states may not be as efficiently run as their former colonial rulers were, with structural support from nations who have undergone a similar process recently, and from colonial powers, they can become independent and strong like many others have. Establishment of larger nations also helps, as the FNS and USEA have proved. These nations, perhaps initially needing aid, are now world powers.

US activities in Belgian Congo 1958

economic aid floods in, and US companies like Brown and Root assist local and Belgain contractors in creating factories. Meanwhile, after the incidents in the hinterland involving terrorist threats, the CIA and US Special Forces are called in. The US Army, having already deployed a battalion of the 7th Special Forces Group to provide training cadres for the nascient Congolese Army, sends in a battalion of the 5th Special Forces Group and a helicopter unit of 100 UH1 helicopters (160th Aviation Group). Reaction companies are formed with a mixture of US and Congolese soldiers.

Meanwhile, the US assists the Congolese in writing a constitution. The government will consist of 3 branchs like the US government. The Legislatative Branch would have the most power however, and would consist of the Chamber of Deputies (1 member for each provience) and the Tribal Assembly (2 members from each tribe). Those two houses would then appoint a Prime Minister from Chamber of Deputies (who functions like a European PM does) and a President is selected by the Tribal Assembly (who functions as head of state and commander in chief of the military). All financial bills come from the Chamber of Deputies.

A court system and Supreme court is also included.

The Constitution is set up for a vote sometime in 1959. During the interim period prior to independence, the President would be the Belgian Colonial Governor.

Secretly, the CIA begins working with Belgian authorities and local people of importance to determine the source of the nascent insurgency with the view of coopting it, or stamping it out. The CIA also begins urgent efforts in neighboring countries and territories to find the likely foreign backer. A very secret and very hard look is taken at South Africa and France.

U2 and RB47 recon aircraft also begin making frequent flights over the Belgian Congo and over neighboring border regions. Declassified material needed for map making, economic activity and census taken is passed on to the colonial government and new leaders of the future independent Congo.

Secretly, (OOC: Assuming the harsh look by the CIA against the French intel is noticed by the French Intel), The French Intel offers to help the CIA find the culprit.
-----------------------------------------------------
We thank Bulgaria for their support. We also find it strange that, in debates over decolonization, the ex-colonial powers, like France, have put very little faith in the ability of local governments to run themselves. Most support comes from ex-colonies, like South Africa, Nigeria, and Egypt. While, initially, the independent states may not be as efficiently run as their former colonial rulers were, with structural support from nations who have undergone a similar process recently, and from colonial powers, they can become independent and strong like many others have. Establishment of larger nations also helps, as the FNS and USEA have proved. These nations, perhaps initially needing aid, are now world powers.

Do not mistake us, mon ami, we have the strongest faith that the Africans are most able to run their own country, perhaps rise even more to a greater destiny, but this takes both time and effort, not just effort alone. We were distraught by the original South African plan as it gave but only less than a year for complete independance. Such a hasty plan would potentialy lead to trouble within the country, but now that a more rational plan was proposed by the honorable US representative for a 10 year independance plan, we give our full and heartiest blessing and support.

We apologise deeply if our arguments offended anyone

The Kaiserin offers two of her Imperial Guard Paratroopers to assist American forces in quenching rebellion in the Congo.

Ship contractors also offer 2 shipping units to suppliment the Congo river.

Parthini']The Kaiserin offers two of her Imperial Guard Paratroopers to assist American forces in quenching rebellion in the Congo.

Ship contractors also offer 2 shipping units to suppliment the Congo river.

The State Department politely turns down the offer (I suspect the Belgains would be far less thrilled about the idea)

Parthini']The Kaiserin offers two of her Imperial Guard Paratroopers to assist American forces in quenching rebellion in the Congo.

OOC:
Uh, what are they rebelling against? And who exactly is rebelling, all the people, certain tribes, or what?

We did not mean to imply French negligence, as we ourselves have prospered after French rule. However, we think that Belgium needs to loosen its hold as much as possible, and allow the Congolese to take a role in developing the future of their nation, something the current US plan does not do as well as possible.

We did not mean to imply French negligence, as we ourselves have prospered after French rule. However, we think that Belgium needs to loosen its hold as much as possible, and allow the Congolese to take a role in developing the future of their nation, something the current US plan does not do as well as possible.

The US points out that under the proposed Congolese constitution, both the traditional African tribal structure, and the geographic provincial structure will have representation, and the government is set up to ensure that a strong man or one tribe does not dominate the others. Surely an equitable and stable arrangement.

So both the old pre European Africa and the modern way of doing things are included.

However, with the Belgian governor in power for the time being, the Congolese people have limited control over their own development, which they surely must play the largest part in.

However, with the Belgian governor in power for the time being, the Congolese people have limited control over their own development, which they surely must play the largest part in.

The US doesn't see a problem with that, it worked out just fine for the Philippines, and the US had a governor general in charge of it from 1902 - 1945, while the Filipinos elected their own legislatures.

However, look at it from the point of the people. Many are tired of Belgian domination. If the Soviet Union had appointed American presidents, would an American Congress balance that out in the minds of the American people?

Syria calls for a floor vote on the measure proposed earlier.

The US works on persuading the Oceanic Alliance nations, Pan American Nations, African nations, the Phillippines, SCT nations, Belgium, Netherlands and Spain to vote its way, and tries to persuade France, Scandic Union and Russia to do so as well.

Not to mention Morocco and Algeria.

It uses the example of the independence and development of the Philippines to argue most for its point of view.

The USEA supports the American proposal

Korea backs the US proposal citing the way they see it, the Government setup seems ideal.

OOC: ok, I may be wrong here, just correct me if I'm wrong
IC:

The Japanese support the proposal, but we do not want to see a Belgian governor, there is too much anger on both sides

Germany, due solely to the fact that America COMPLETELY IGNORED IT, vehemently opposes the resolution on the Congo.

We just need more Congolese or at least African involvement. I have nothing against the US, it's just that I think the Congolese should be doing the work with the US supervising, not the US making a miniature American government. Who says the Congolese even want to be democratic? There was a ton of left-wing supporters in RL and, considering the exploitation of African during the previous century, they probably wouldn't mind a nation ran by the working class. I'm not supporting communism or anything like that, just pointing out that Africa was a breadbasket for the left-wing during the Cold War.

OOC: Yeah, that's a little IC/OOC mixed. Sorry 'bout that.

The US works on persuading the Oceanic Alliance nations, Pan American Nations, African nations, the Phillippines, SCT nations, Belgium, Netherlands and Spain to vote its way, and tries to persuade France, Scandic Union and Russia to do so as well.

Not to mention Morocco and Algeria.

It uses the example of the independence and development of the Philippines to argue most for its point of view.

China indicates that it will support the US proposal if one section of it is revised.

The section in question being the governor-ship. China will support the US proposal if the governor is a native Congolese instead of a foreign Belgian governor.

France shall support only if the Governor appointed enjoys a good reputation within the Congo, no matter what nationality he is.

OOC: After all there must be some Belgians who supported the Congolese cause...

OOC: Yes, but the US president has to be American for a reason. Also, I was talking about my motion for Security Council membership, so after the Congo is settled can we vote on that?

IC: Syria, like China, will not vote in favor unless the governor represents the new nation, not the old oppressors.

ooc
remember, technically, Belgian Congo remains Belgian for 10 years, so a Belgian governor is a sop to their soveriegnity.

IC
The US points out that most of the government will actually be Congolese (the entire Legislative Branch) and also points out that under this system, the whites who chose to remain in Congo will have represantation as a tribe in the Tribal Assembly, but will not dominate.

After independence, which is set for 1968 at this point, the President will be selected by the Legislative Branch, and will no longer be a Belgian.

Its a transition essentially, and the US points out that by that time, there will be sufficient numbers of Congolese with sufficient experience to run a large nation as they will have been doing so for 10 years in the Legislature.

Parthini']Germany, due solely to the fact that America COMPLETELY IGNORED IT, vehemently opposes the resolution on the Congo.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10941831&postcount=709

The US Ambassador looks at the Germans quizically

The US points out that most of the government will actually be Congolese (the entire Legislative Branch) and also points out that under this system, the whites who chose to remain in Congo will have represantation as a tribe in the Tribal Assembly, but will not dominate.

South Africa votes in favor of the US proposal as it stands.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10941831&postcount=709

The US Ambassador looks at the Germans quizically

OOC: You asked for support from practically everyone else but me. Makes me feel really good about myself.

Parthini']OOC: You asked for support from practically everyone else but me. Makes me feel really good about myself.

The US naturally assumed that a government as enlightened as Germany would support the resolution. The US apologizes if it was wrong in this matter.

ooc
chuckle

The US naturally assumed that a government as enlightened as Germany would support the resolution. The US apologizes if it was wrong in this matter.

ooc
chuckle

Uh huh... :rolleyes:

The SU will vote in favor of the Congo resolution.

Nigeria will only support the resolution if the Congo is either run by a native governor or a UN delegation, not the Belgians.

The SU would like to point out that under the agreement, the Congo is under Belgian rule for another 10 years. How can Belgium rule the Congo if the governor is not Belgian?

How can the Congo prepare for independence without taking the central role in doing so?

The SU would like to point out that under the agreement, the Congo is under Belgian rule for another 10 years. How can Belgium rule the Congo if the governor is not Belgian?

Africa has not been independent for over two hundred years. The African people are tired of waiting for Europe to get it's act together.

Taking the central role isn't preparing, its taking the reins. The Congolese are already playing a major and key part by controlling the Legislature. Let them learn politics and how to run a country in the Legislature and in other government positions with American help. They are already gauranteed there independance in ten years, a Belgian governor is not going to take that away from them, but a Congolese governor would take that ten years away from Belgium and pose as an unessecary insult to Belgium.

Perhaps they should form their own system, more adapted to their needs, like many ex-colonial nations, including Southeast Asia and ourselves have done, instead of having their constitution written by Belgium and America.

Taking the central role isn't preparing, its taking the reins. The Congolese are already playing a major and key part by controlling the Legislature. Let them learn politics and how to run a country in the Legislature and in other government positions with American help. They are already gauranteed there independance in ten years, a Belgian governor is not going to take that away from them, but a Congolese governor would take that ten years away from Belgium and pose as an unessecary insult to Belgium.

Personally, we do not care if Belgium feels insulted or not. The Europeans oppressed the Africans and exploited our resources for the benefit of their own countries. I think that they can deal with a small slight.

However, I would like to thank the great nations of the United States, Britain, Germany, and France for doing their utmost to insure the prosperity of Africa in the 20th century. They have shown that they can move beyond the past and make their countries, as well as our own, better places.

Personally, we do not care if Belgium feels insulted or not. The Europeans oppressed the Africans and exploited our resources for the benefit of their own countries. I think that they can deal with a small slight.

However, I would like to thank the great nations of the United States, Britain, Germany, and France for doing their utmost to insure the prosperity of Africa in the 20th century. They have shown that they can move beyond the past and make their countries, as well as our own, better places.

The German Ambassador nods in the direction of the Nigerian Delegate.

Promises of future financial aid are made, as well as the 2 Shipping Units.

(When will Congo have it's build? B/c when it does, add 2 level 7 shipping units from Germany)

Personally, we do not care if Belgium feels insulted or not. The Europeans oppressed the Africans and exploited our resources for the benefit of their own countries. I think that they can deal with a small slight.

However, I would like to thank the great nations of the United States, Britain, Germany, and France for doing their utmost to insure the prosperity of Africa in the 20th century. They have shown that they can move beyond the past and make their countries, as well as our own, better places.

Its not a small slight. The UK took over 10 years to grant Nigeria independence for example, and did so on its on. Portugal had its colonies stripped away, and fell into chaos as a result. A reasonable 10 year plan is certainly sensible.

Representatives from the Siberian and Caucasus regions arrive at the UN to attempt to gain support for a devolution or independence of their regions.

The Caucasus delegates include members of the Armenian, Azerbaijani, Dagestani, Ossetian, Chechnyan, Circassian and Abkhaz ethno-linguistic groupings.

The Siberian delegation includes Russians, Russified Ukrainians, Turks, Mongols, Uralic, Manchu-Tungus and Chukotko-Kamchatkans.

Representatives from the Siberian and Caucasus regions arrive at the UN to attempt to gain support for a devolution or independence of their regions.

The Caucasus delegates include members of the Armenian, Azerbaijani, Dagestani, Ossetian, Chechnyan, Circassian and Abkhaz ethno-linguistic groupings.

The Siberian delegation includes Russians, Russified Ukrainians, Turks, Mongols, Uralic, Manchu-Tungus and Chukotko-Kamchatkans.

The Ukrainian ambassador, a small, mousy, bespectacled, but intense man, takes the floor after the delegates speak. He lavishly praises the courage of those nations who have stood before the UN today. He reminds the UN that, at one point, the Ukraine and other countries were under Russian rule as well, and would take care to remember their own pasts as they look upon the struggles of these nations. "The Russian leadership," the Ukrainian ambassador speaks, his face stern and serious, "must respect the right of its people to its liberties, including self-determination. It is not fair that only some of those peoples who had been forced to live under the foreign rulership of Moscow are free- in the name of justice and freedom, Russia must allow the nations who these delegates proudly represent to be able to return to their historical autonomy or independence, whichever they so choose."

The Ukrainian ambassador promises that the Ukraine will gladly provide social and economic aid to the new republics, so as to help them live as well as their brothers in freedom, the Ukrainians, do now, and so that want will not douse the flame of freedom.

China quietly supports all these independence proposals.

Syria would like to bring a point to light. Russia has already placed a timetable for Belarussian independence. We believe that if the SU should now allow the plebecite for Sankt Petersburg. Part of the unhappiness these people is likely due to the economic situation, something that could be improved by returning the greatest Russian seaport, and the six million who live there, back to the nation they want to be part of. However, if this does not improve the situation, plebecites should be held at these various areas throughout the nation.

The US makes no comment publically concerning Siberian and Caucasian independence efforts, but private off the record sources indicate that these groups do not even represent the majority of the ethnicities they claim to represent.

OOC
The US has hard information on this but isn't acting on it at this time

South Africa offers tacit support to both the Siberian and Caucasian independence movements, but expresses no official stance or firm commitment to either side of the issue. At this time, South Africa is unable to reconcile it's consistent promotion of self-determination with its desire to see the status quo remain unchanged in the Eastern Hemisphere.

The FNS will not support the idea of their independance; A United Russia would be able to provide for all of their citizens. Surely the few people in Siberia and the Caucaus should think of more than themselves. Afterall, it is a result of the Russian economy that they have the ability to be heard in the world at all.

The Japanese delegate agrees with his Ukrainian delegate, and would like to offer several problems in the FNS' speech. First, while a united Russia would be more powerful, that does not necessarily make it a fine nation (although we are not saying that Russia is not a fine nation). It is not because of Russia that they are allowed to be heard, it is because of the people who came to the UN to plead their case. Also, the people of Siberia and the Caucusus think of more than themselves, they speak (or at least believe they do) for the people in the region, and the recent unrest in those regions proves people want independance

People want independence for Siberia and the Causcaus, but are they neccessarily any signifigant number of people, or a vocal minority with large bank account?