NationStates Jolt Archive

I understand you tried to help us there, but from now on please don't make any major decisions like that without us. There were specific reasons we did not decide to attack, same with Canton, and the moving of troops next to Canton? It might not sound like it makes sense but there are reasons behind the plans we've brought forth.

Soryy if I came across as harsh, I apreciate what your doing a lot, just wanted to clear this up.

Canton was the only chance you had to stabilize the situation at all, as it is, the Japanese now lack the strength to advance in that area. Without pressure from those troops, Hong Kong would have fallen definitely.

In addition, the French are now providing French military experts to the Nationalist CHinese to help train their troops.

Canton was the only chance you had to stabilize the situation at all, as it is, the Japanese now lack the strength to advance in that area. Without pressure from those troops, Hong Kong would have fallen definitely.

Yes, so what, I would have lost Hong Kong which was not getting me any points anyway, I wanted them to advance north into China from Canton. Moot point now, but Im telling you, I don't just do things for fun, theres reasons behind my orders, if you see something then tell me and I'll think about it, I do value your advice as your something of an expert compared to us but I have to take it in stride with my overall plan. So if something like this arrises, tell me the change you wanted to make, and i'll make the decision whether or not it should be a go.

Marshal Foch, leader at the Battle of Paris, is called on to assume command of the tattered French forces in China. They await reinforcements from France, but will hold the line in the brave tradition of all French troops before them.

OOC: Wait a second what cities do my Mexican soldiers hold in China right now?

The Japanese government declares victory over the French in this battle, stating that their involvement "only delays the inevitable defeat of the Chinese aggressor government and the protection of China from communism."

In other news, Prince Chichibu, brother of Emperor Hirohito, has proclaimed himself Regent of China, with the provisional capital at Shanhai. His first act as Regent of his proclaimed Empire of China is to recognize Manchuria, Tibet, Turkestan, Mongolia, etc. He has "outstretched a hand of peace," as he says, "to the newly independent republics that have broken away from the old dynasty. The Empire of China wishes to sign non-aggression treaties and treaties of alliance." Prince Chichibu is looking for a Chinese bride, and has renounced his Japanese citizenship and adopted a Chinese name.

(OOC: VP, need help on what name Prince Chichibu should take in Chinese, since you appear to be the China expert)

OOC: Wait a second what cities do my Mexican soldiers hold in China right now?

None. Our forces took Hong Kong, with your infantry being destroyed in that attack. We withdrew because we couldn't hold both cities. Hong Kong, like most other Japanese held cities, is in complete ruins.

Due to our agreement, you still owe me 9 build points. Go on wartime economy and give me 3 points for 3 turns. Also, you need to build up some troops and say how many you are going to send to China. I'd like to do the warplans on those, so we can actually work together.

OOC: Yes we need to work on warplans. I'm going to swicth my economy to wartime I will pay the nine points soon enought. I have 50,000 dead, but I still have 50,000 troops in Canton from what GB has written. By tommorrow I will come up with my economy plan this year. I will do the three point each year. TG me to tell me what a good economy plan would be with also how many men I need to send.

--snip--
T-gram sent.

Yes, so what, I would have lost Hong Kong which was not getting me any points anyway, I wanted them to advance north into China from Canton. Moot point now, but Im telling you, I don't just do things for fun, theres reasons behind my orders, if you see something then tell me and I'll think about it, I do value your advice as your something of an expert compared to us but I have to take it in stride with my overall plan. So if something like this arrises, tell me the change you wanted to make, and i'll make the decision whether or not it should be a go.

remember you are a popular based movement, and politically, the fall of Hong Kong is potentially very dangerous to the Nationalist cause. At this point, you hold only one port, and it is blockaded closely. Hong Kong was seized by the rebels who have sided with you to for mutual protection. Politically, you would have had no choice but to attempt to relieve Hong Kong and take back Canton. In additon, you were out of places to start new units (due to stacking) and moving the troops allowed 4 new infantry corps to start there (which otherwise cannot enter the map).

Many reasons in all for activity last turn. Some of which you do not get to control because of the divided nature of China at this time. Just as the Japanese have to deal with 2 armed services who hate each other (literally).

So plans are factored in by all players, but also certain things are going on that you cannot control, nor can other players. You simply have to react to them as best as the situation allows.

IC
The US is urging both sides to accept a cease fire in place. Japan has certianly punished China enough in the US view.

Secret IC:

France contacts the US government and quietly suggests that Mexico is not doing itself any favor by assisting the Japanese. Perhaps the Americans can persuade them to withdraw?


France will accept a ceasefire when and if Japan relinquishes any claims it has over the soverign territory of the Nationalist Chinese Government and pays reperations for the cities it has destroyed. In addition, France refuses to recognizre the so-called "Emperor of China" and produces the legitimate emperor in Paris, pointing out that even if the monarchy was still in place Prince Chichibu has no legitimate claim to the throne of China. The French continue to wage a propoganda war, urging all Chinese to resist the invaders with every breath.

Secret IC:

France contacts the US governemnt and quietly suggests that Mexico is not doing itself any favor by assisting the Japanese. Perhaps the Americans can persuade them to withdraw?

The US government once again urges all Pan American and LTA nations to remain neutral. In addition, it secretly makes contact with the political opposition in Mexico and urges them to rein in the urges of Imperialism and points out that Mexico cannot hope to remain in Asia for any length of time even if peace comes.

ooc
by the way, chemical weapons were not used in Hong Kong (due to the fact the Mexican troops were not equipped for chemical warfare). Mexican forces that remain in China are not combat capable at this point due to crippling losses and another corps is en route (arrives in November, in Canton I assume).

"Japan has made no claims to territory in China, and, therefore, cannot relinquish any claims as they do not exist. Also, Gouzu has lost his mandate of heaven due to his supreme act of cowardice and disgrace in forsaking his country to rebels of many stripes, even after his aggression on the high seas.

Finally, Regent Chichibu is not an emperor, and has never claimed to be. He is a regent, waiting until a man with the Mandate of Heaven comes to take the Chinese throne. He is now referred to as Regent Zhenglong (OOC: VP, don't know if that name is kosher)."

"The Empire of China no longer exists. There is the Nationalist Chinese Government, a democratic nation. As such the so-called regent has no claim to Chinese soverignty."

OOC: Ooh! I thought of a good name.

In Chinese last year, we got to make our Chinese names, with a surname and all. I was Long Wang (before you laugh, it was intended as a joke, but in China it means Dragon King. A badass name if I do say so myself). It didn't make much sense as Long isn't a surname, but I doubt that would matter to the Japs. Plus, it would be a good propaganda tool, saying he is the king of the Dragon.

My two pesos.

Parthini']OOC: Ooh! I thought of a good name.

In Chinese last year, we got to make our Chinese names, with a surname and all. I was Long Wang (before you laugh, it was intended as a joke, but in China it means Dragon King. A badass name if I do say so myself). It didn't make much sense as Long isn't a surname, but I doubt that would matter to the Japs. Plus, it would be a good propaganda tool, saying he is the king of the Dragon.

My two pesos.

OOC: roflmao....I'm taking it. Seriously.

(OOC: VP, need help on what name Prince Chichibu should take in Chinese, since you appear to be the China expert)
Zhenglong could mean a lot of different things, of course, but it could mean, as Zhènglŏng, the "Suffuser of Freedom," which is pretty good for the political leader of an occupation force. Of course the Chinese would use the same words with one change of tone to create the name Zhènglóng, "Cage of Sickness."

My personal recommendation, should he assume the throne, would be Lianzu ("Uniting Emperor") of the Xin ("New") Dynasty.

And, once I've completed reviewing and written up the post, I have to warn you that the Union will not react well to the use of gas, even against scummy Nationalists - let alone French. Bad things will happen.

Oi.

Chairman Chen will assent, and allow the shipment of American planes to pass through Manchurian territory.

The Rhee Government is relieved at the news, and will allow war materials to be shipped on Korean Rail traffic.

Also, shipments of food and munitions (mainly rifles and ammo) will be sent via Mancuhurian rail as well (deriving some number of points, probably 1 or 2 leftover, if I have any left from trying to upgrade to Level 6, support my local Level 2 system and assembling an HQ).

OoC: This will become important much sooner than I'd hoped.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20SovietUnionmd.gif

Red Army forces deployed to the Far East

Kamchatka
2 infantry, 1 coast defense artillery (Petropavlovsk)

Siberia
2 Mobile Armies under Marshal Heinz Guderian, each consisting of:
Frontline forces: 4 armored cavalry, 1 artillery (rocket, antitank, or siege), 1 HQ, 4 light bombers, 4 fighters
Support forces: 1 theater supply, 1 HQ, and 1 fighter will follow behind each Army
Mobile Reserves
4 airborne, 4 air transports
4 alpine
4 headquarters
1 theater supply
Mobile Artillery (to accompany frontline units for each Mobile Army depending on mission)
2 railroad siege
2 antitank
2 mechanized rocket

Stationary Forces
2 infantry, 1 coastal defense battery at Konstantinovsk
1 infantry, fortifications at Khabarovsk
1 infantry, 1 garrison, 1 coastal defense battery, fortifications at Vladivostok
1 infantry, 1 flak battery Hex East of Vladivostok
1 infantry, 1 garrison, 1 coastal defense battery at Nikolayevsk

Pacific Squadron based at Vladivostok
2 light ships
6 submarines

Manchuria
6 infantry (various positions – wherever they fit)

Mongolia
6 infantry (2 protecting Chita-Harbin Railway in two Hexes in Outer Mongolia, remainder in Outer Mongolia stationed around Beijing and Taiyuan)

Kashgaria
4 infantry (protecting Kashgar and Urumqi)

In other news, Prince Chichibu, brother of Emperor Hirohito, has proclaimed himself Regent of China, with the provisional capital at Shanhai. His first act as Regent of his proclaimed Empire of China is to recognize Manchuria, Tibet, Turkestan, Mongolia, etc. He has "outstretched a hand of peace," as he says, "to the newly independent republics that have broken away from the old dynasty. The Empire of China wishes to sign non-aggression treaties and treaties of alliance."

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20Mongolia.gif
Premier Gelden of Mongolia will happily sign a Non-Aggession Pact with the Regent. He will at first consider an alliance, but when it becomes clear how unpopular Japan is among his neighbours, will backpeddle and refuse to commit.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20CCP.gif
Chen Duxiu of Manchuria, an ethnic Han governing a nation chiefly of ethnic Han, rejects the "filthy barbarian" offer of an alliance from an "autocratic power of unspeakable cruelty" and declares war on "the Japanese Empire and its vile representatives everywhere on Earth."

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20Kashgaria.gif
The government of Kashgar will consider a Non-Aggression Pact, but turns up its nose at an alliance. President Niyaz says, "We rely on God and our own strength to give us justice - poison clouds are not the weapon of decent men."

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20Tibet.gif
The Regency Council of Tibet will also conclude a Non-Aggression Pact with the Regent, but not an alliance. Their diplomatic representative simply smiles and says "We do not make war - only peace."

Siberia
2 Mobile Armies under Marshal Heinz Guderian, each consisting of....


OOC: That'll be quite the sight. Kudos to you for invoking a master of tank strategy; if it comes to blows, we may see a repeat of the Khalkin Gol....only faster, and with not as much artillery duels.

Link to a crudely-edited battlemap (http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/ChineseRevolution1.gif) showing the railroads and international borders recognized by Japan and the Soviet Union in the Summer of 1934.

This map can also now be found in the second post of this thread. Photobucket shrank it for some reason (must've been too big), but if you have picture editors on your own computers you might be able to resize it.

1 October 1934
We regretfully inform His Imperial Majesty's Government that we must no longer consider our Non-Agression Pact to be in force.

We realize that our treaty provisions require six months' notice for a legal withdrawal, but we consider these provisions to be obviated by the atrocities committed by the Japanese Imperial Army in its campaign on Mainland Asia. The legality of our actions may, of course, be disputed in the Court of International Justice at the Hague, should His Imperial Majesty's Government choose to bring suit.

- Aleksandra Kollontai, Union Minister for International Affairs

1 October 1934

A state of war now exists between the Sovereign People's Conciliar Union and the Empire of Japan.

- President Sergei Mironovich Kirov

Emperor Hirohito has gone on national radio today, making this the first time the common people have heard his voice.

"My loyal subjects, today the Western aggressors have declared war on us, and we shall meet that threat with the full force of our military. Remember our code of honor, our superior way of battle. Let the Westerners complain of our use of weapons--all those who have died because of them are enemies or fools, and those are helpful to no one. Know that our soldiers fight to defend Japan and the world from communism. So, I say, to Berlin or death!"

OOC: Yeah, pretty crappy. Next part.

IC:

Regent Zhenglong has declared that "a state of war between the Empire of China and the Sovereign People's Conciliar Union now exists, and the Empire of China shall make every effort to meet and defeat the communist enemy."

OOC:As the puppet government has no army, build points, etc. China's best efforts mean hurling insults. Maybe some enemy general is emo and will go kill himself....

Due to Japan's flagrant entanglement in Chinese domestic affairs and its blatant human rights violations in using chemical weapons, Hungary hereby declares war on Japan. Hungary will maintain its embassy in Japan however, in hopes that both nations may someday soon become friends.

As soon as we have strategic moves again, we'll pull our four existing naval air wings to Siberia to defend Vladivostok and its construction yards. We will also bring our four marine corps east, as well.

And activating our remaining eight infantry reserves.

In a totally unrelated piece of news, Warsaw is saddened by the sudden death of the former Union Minister for the Common Defense, Jukums Vācietis. No details have yet been released concerning the cause, but the rumor is that it was suicide.

In a totally unrelated piece of news, Warsaw is saddened by the sudden death of the former Union Minister for the Common Defense, Jukums Vācietis. No details have yet been released concerning the cause, but the rumor is that it was suicide.

Damn emo bastards :rolleyes:

emo kid ->:( :sniper: <- me

Damn emo bastards :rolleyes:

emo kid ->:( :sniper: <- me
Yeah, suicide. Japanese don't do that. Nossir.

Besides. What, other than the Soviet Directorate of the Press, makes you think it was suicide?

To be honest, nothing.

And just because the Japs like killing themselves for honor doesn't mean I have to like it. It ruins my plans....

ooc
Vas, I need orders as to the principal initial objective of the Siberian TVD and the mobile forces. By the way, expect Vladivostok and all of the Pacific ports to ice up in November (maybe later for Vladivostok, depends on weather).

Incidently everyone, chemical weapons are ineffective during winter and mud turns, and movement is at a crawl.

technically, chemical weapons are not an atrocity as no treaty has yet been signed (although I could be mistaken) concerning them. Not that the average civilian will see it that way.

IC
President Roosevelt declares a state of emergency after the Union declaration of war expecting further declarations of war to follow. In addition, as the League of Nations has clearly failed, former President Cox is recalled. Finally, US forces in the Pacific are put on war alert, and the US Pacific Fleet, which has just returned from a long deployment in the Western Pacific hurriedly refits. The National Guard and Reserves are called up as well.

All arms shipments to Asia are immediately halted. Japan is informed (quietly through back channels to avoid humiliating the Japanese government) that further use of chemical weapons will make it difficult if not impossible for the US to support Japan in this matter. However, Japan is quietly given loan guarantees worth 12 build points (you get them January 1935 which you will have to pay back post war).

ooc
bet Japan wishes it had stayed in the LTA now (chuckle)

Throughout Nationalist China, the news of the Japanese atrocities and use of gas weapons has enraged millions upon millions of Chinese. This, in addition to the Japanese invasion and betrayal of the thirty years of peace between Japan and China, has begun to foster a newfound hatred for Japan.

The Japanese invasion and subsquent atrocities has begun to spread many questions amongst the Chinese about the appeal of communism. The Chinese are beginning to wonder whether communism was to blame for the entire state of affairs in China.

Some of the questions include:

...."If not for the socialist rebellions and secessions, then Japan wouldn't have invaded China, and consquently there would be no gas attacks or suffering of the Chinese people."

..."The Emperor actually introduced basic social services in 1933, which should have showed the revolutionaries that the Emperor was attempting to address the social issues within China. If the Revolutionaries would have waited just one more year then their wishes would have been granted, and there would have been no need for the secession as each province would have had a greater say as well as markedly improved services for all of its peoples."

..."If the revolutions and the Japanese attacks did not take place, the Emeror would have not felt the need to seek safety in France, one of China's dedicated allies."

..."France is helping China fight off the evil Japanese. They are a proud people that experienced a similiar ordreal during the Second Great War. France is truly a friend of China."

..."The revolutions devastated the Chinese economy, allowing Japan to do what it did to the Chinese nation and people. Without the revolutions, China could have fared much better aganist Japan with an united front instead of a fractured front."

..."Why did the Japanese need to use gas weapons after all the successes they have had aganist Chinese forces? The Japanese would have won without the gas weapons. Therefore it stands to reason that the Japanese are an evil people that must be eradicated as they must have a sadistic tendency to employ atrocities aganist the noble Chinese people!"

Owing to these questions, Chiang Kai Shek has decreed that China will maintain social services throughout the war, in hopes of reducing the already considerable suffering the Chinese people have experienced. In addition, Chiang has vowed to fight Japan until the end as the Chinese people are far more proud than Japan, owing to the fact that Japan unnecessarily used gas weapons when they could have done just as well without them.

The United States sends a note to the Union requesting clarifications of Union war aims concerning Japan, and specifically, what terms are necessary for peace between Japan and the Union.

In addition, the US Ambassador Averell Harriman makes plain that the United States will not permit the occupation of Japan by the Union as it is directly contrary to the national interest of the United States.

Snip.
Actually, most Chinese blame the Emperor's incompetence for provoking the Revolutions, rather than blaming the Revolutionaries for weakening the Empire.

Guozu was not well-liked.

In the future, either check with the History Moderator before making posts like that, or be prepared to back up your statements with actual research, as opposed to what you want to believe.

This counts as a warning, Sharina.

Actually, most Chinese blame the Emperor's incompetence for provoking the Revolutions, rather than blaming the Revolutionaries for weakening the Empire.

Guozu was not well-liked.

In the future, either check with the History Moderator before making posts like that, or be prepared to back up your statements with actual research, as opposed to what you want to believe.

This counts as a warning, Sharina.

OOC:

Uhm... there's two sides to everything. Good and evil. Up and down. Light and dark. and so on.

Thus it does stand to reason that there would be Chinese that actually think that way (the socialist-haters), like there could be Chinese that think the way you state that they do (the Guozu-haters).

Besides, the further we go along in alternate history, the more difficult it is to research things because things will be growing more and more divergent. For instance, there are millions of new lives in this timeline that in our RL timeline never existed. The soldiers who lived through our wars in our timelines but died in RL world wars, or different events may lead to people meeting different people (marry different people for instance then have different kids) than in RL.

Multiply that by millions of altered lives in our timeline, and history does go differently. I can see research working and a good tool for the first 10 - 15 years of an alternate timeline, but after that, it becomes somewhat too divergent to compare RL modern history, tendencies, etc. to our timeline.

Finally, I'm taking a certain person's suggestion to do this to prevent China from going commie, as I want a democractic China, not a commie one in this timeline.

ooc
I suggested propaganda, not decisions being made by the people. That being said, I will accept that the Nationalists are trying to blame the Communists for all of this, plus the Japanese.

OOC:

Uhm... there's two sides to everything. Good and evil. Up and down. Light and dark. and so on.

Thus it does stand to reason that there would be Chinese that actually think that way (the socialist-haters), like there could be Chinese that think the way you state that they do (the Guozu-haters).

Besides, the further we go along in alternate history, the more difficult it is to research things because things will be growing more and more divergent. For instance, there are millions of new lives in this timeline that in our RL timeline never existed. The soldiers who lived through our wars in our timelines but died in RL world wars, or different events may lead to people meeting different people (marry different people for instance then have different kids) than in RL.

Multiply that by millions of altered lives in our timeline, and history does go differently. I can see research working and a good tool for the first 10 - 15 years of an alternate timeline, but after that, it becomes somewhat too divergent to compare RL modern history, tendencies, etc. to our timeline.

Finally, I'm taking a certain person's suggestion to do this to prevent China from going commie, as I want a democractic China, not a commie one in this timeline.
Read the part again where I say RESEARCH. Your "stands to reason" arguments are pointless and invalid. If you can argue with facts instead just with what you'd like to think, then I'll gladly listen. This an Alternate History RP, not Fantasy. Whether there are people who like the Emperor or not is not the point. The problem is you don't know anything about China, and are just rationalizing your laziness in not bothering to learn.

If I sound pissed, it's because I am.

The United States sends a note to the Union requesting clarifications of Union war aims concerning Japan, and specifically, what terms are necessary for peace between Japan and the Union.

In addition, the US Ambassador Averell Harriman makes plain that the United States will not permit the occupation of Japan by the Union as it is directly contrary to the national interest of the United States.
The Union is not interested in the conquest of Japan - Japan is centuries away from socialism in our opinion.

However, we seek the following preconditions for peace:

The total withdrawal of all Japanese military forces from the Mainland, Hainan, and Formosa.

War reparations to be delivered to the legitimate Chinese government in compensation for the destruction, murder, and rapine which has been inflicted upon the Chinese people by the Japanese military.

Severe restrictions on the land and air forces that Japan be allowed to maintain in the future.

The restoration of certain islands to the Union government that were sold to Japan by the Tsar.

OOC:

I only stated the questions that the Chinese are asking. I never said that every Chinese person is asking those questions. Besides, those questions can be propganda- use these questions in newspapers and radios and advertisements.

I was merely expressing the anti-communist or anti-revolutionary views that SOME Chinese may have. Nothing "set in stone" and this isn't official domestic or international policy.

That's reasonable. Sorry if I got out of line. It's just been a longstanding problem, and it hasn't gotten any better.

I'm going offline for awhile to cool off.

Nationalist China and Manchuria will be able to build infantry and garrison cheaper beginning in 1935. Check to military and economic threads.

Argentina recognizes that it has a mutual defense treaty with Japan and declares a state of emergency. It also empounds Union and French shipping in its ports (costing the Union about 50,000 tons and France about 50,000 tons, not enough for game effect). Argentina also seizes all Union and French assets and promises to send 1 production point a turn to Japan (basically grain and beef exports). In addition, it mobilizes and prepares to ship forces to help defend Japan. However, Argentina makes clear that it will not commit forces to China.

ooc
based on long history in this game of close relations between Japan and Argentina

British politicians are shocked at recent events in the East and an emergency session of the parliament rules for a special state of affairs to exist (no allowance for a "State of Emergency" event yet in the law, and won't be until 2004). The reserves are mobilised and the Navy put on alert, Territorial Army members are informed that they may, at short notice, be recalled immediately from their normal jobs and mobilised at their local barracks. The RN Pacific Fleet is placed on heightened alert and is refueled and rearmed at Singapore. The MoD advises Commonwealth nations to follow similar precautions incase this event spills over from Asia.

OOC: Hey GB whats the status on those Vietnamese infantry corps that I sent into Indo China?

THe Rumanian Government declares war soon after the Union does, adn the governemtn begins to send aid to France. (2 Points/turn)

British politicians are shocked at recent events in the East and an emergency session of the parliament rules for a special state of affairs to exist (no allowance for a "State of Emergency" event yet in the law, and won't be until 2004). The reserves are mobilised and the Navy put on alert, Territorial Army members are informed that they may, at short notice, be recalled immediately from their normal jobs and mobilised at their local barracks. The RN Pacific Fleet is placed on heightened alert and is refueled and rearmed at Singapore. The MoD advises Commonwealth nations to follow similar precautions incase this event spills over from Asia.

Australia has been on edge since the revolutions started, but the government takes British advice and formally puts the military on alert and mobilizes the reserves. Several announcements are made to the populace, assuring them this is only a precaution and that the nation will not enter the war unless it is attacked.

OOC: Hey GB whats the status on those Vietnamese infantry corps that I sent into Indo China?

1 corps is adjacent to Nanning at this time. You only have 1 that I know of.

winter comes early.... severe winter in Arctic weather zone (ports freeze, no movement through mountian hexes, Tibet is isolated for the winter except occasional flights, and no transfer of points through mountain areas).

winter in temperate zone (no amphibious landings, movement reduced by 1 hex, HQs can only move one hex, air missions less effective by half).

Mud in Mediterranean zone. Clear in Northern Monsoon zone.

Japan gets to go first, and moves 2 brand new mechanized corps to Shanghai, and an infantry corps (that was shattered previously and has reformed) to Canton. Japan occupies undefended Hong Kong.

All Russian Pacific ports are iced in, as is Sakkalin.

Japan now has 6 carriers with operational air groups (2 fighters, 2 dive bombers, 2 torpedo bombers). 2 other carriers are waiting on pilots to finish training.

OOC: Hey GB whats the status on those Vietnamese infantry corps that I sent into Indo China?

OOC: Wow, when did this happen? Whose side are you on?

OOC: Wow, when did this happen? Whose side are you on?
He is supporting the rebel movements(aka commies) and trying to support Laos and someone else break away from Chinese rule, I belive.

OOC: In that case.....

IC: The Chinese Government demands that Vietnam pulls its troops out of Chinese territory within the month, is this the way a nation shows gratitude to the nation that granted it its independence and soveriegnty? If Vietnam does not pull its troops out of China then China will return Vietnam to its previous status, be it 6 months from now or 6 years. China has been around for a thousand years and in that time we have developed very long memories, we mightnot be able to do anything about your actions now but we will remember, China will never forget who sided against.

While not proposing to take sides in the Chinese internal conflict, the Union does make clear in a number of communications that it supports the definition of China as Han China, which implicitly does not include Indochina, as currently occupied by the Vietnamese.

As a gesture of conciliation, perhaps the Vietnamese might somehow compensate China for its territorial losses in the region.

OOC: In that case.....

IC: The Chinese Government demands that Vietnam pulls its troops out of Chinese territory within the month, is this the way a nation shows gratitude to the nation that granted it its independence and soveriegnty? If Vietnam does not pull its troops out of China then China will return Vietnam to its previous status, be it 6 months from now or 6 years. China has been around for a thousand years and in that time we have developed very long memories, we mightnot be able to do anything about your actions now but we will remember, China will never forget who sided against.

The United States offers Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos the opportunity to sign a mutual defense treaty and offers to sponser admission into the London Treaty Alliance (ooc which gets the British Commonwealth on your side as well).

OOC: Seeing as how the Vietnamese are more Left-Leaning, wouldn't they be more suited to join the Pact?

Colombia opposes the membership of Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos into the LTA. The London Treaty Alliance is not here to support Imperialist Nations.

Parthini']OOC: Seeing as how the Vietnamese are more Left-Leaning, wouldn't they be more suited to join the Pact?

ooc
player countries always get to chose their own destinies in this respect. As long as the reasoning is good. In this case, the US and Australia and Great Britian have provided aid, as have the French and Union. So he gets to make a choice, or choose not to choose. Strategically the LTA can help him more than the Pact can though. The US was also instrumental in getting Vietnam independence during the 2nd Great War.

Colombia opposes the membership of Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos into the LTA. The London Treaty Alliance is not here to support Imperialist Nations.

The London Treaty Alliance is a defensive alliance meant to protect nations. The US will continue to sponser Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia should they choose to join. In addition to that, the US recognizes that Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia are merely seeking freedom and security, and that is the basic purpose of the LTA. As Indochina has been oppressed and occupied for many generations by the Chinese and later the French, we offer the peoples of Indochina a chance to secure their future.



ooc
as this is a majority vote, its up to the British Commonwealth nations really. And Vietnam, which hasn't even expressed interest before the offer was made.

ooc
The US was also instrumental in getting Vietnam independence during the 2nd Great War.
OoC: As was the Union. Beijing would never have agreed to "give up" Vietnam without pressure from Moscow.

Warsaw will contact Washington to inquire about the possibility of a joint agreement to protect (Greater) Vietnam without specifically enrolling Hanoi in any alliance directed against either of us.

The London Treaty Alliance is a defensive alliance meant to protect nations. The US will continue to sponser Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia should they choose to join. In addition to that, the US recognizes that Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia are merely seeking freedom and security, and that is the basic purpose of the LTA. As Indochina has been oppressed and occupied for many generations by the Chinese and later the French, we offer the peoples of Indochina a chance to secure their future.

Secret IC
Then the US offers to fully equip the Vietnamese Army and Air Force and also to build a couple of factories in Vietnam and provide 2 merchant shipping units, plus aircraft to start a national airline if Vietnam signs a defense treaty with the US.

with the declaration of war by the Union on Japan, the US quietly allows the resumption of scrap metal sales to Japan (3 points a year), and also quietly offers 250 B17As which are about to be replaced or have been replaced by B17Cs in the Philippines.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20Nationalists.gif

Some Important Things for the Chinese Player to Know

The Nationalist (Guómíndăng) movement consists of a Right Wing (Yòu or Guódăng), composed chiefly of former Imperial officers (including Generalissimo Jiang Jieshi) and conservative intellectual and economic elites, along with a handful of Classic Liberals and Westernizers; and a Left Wing (Zuŏ or Míndăng), consisting largely of the Communists (such as Mao Zedong), the urban and rural poor enrolled in the Communist-sponsored Mutual Aid Associations, and a number of Left-leaning Liberals and Westernizers.

The Right Wing is not especially pro-Democracy, but neither does it necessarily desire a return to Imperial times. Emperor Guozu is reviled by the Right for his incompetence as much as he is by the Left for his tyranny. Even Conservatives consider the Emperor to have been a liability to Chinese civilization, though more for his personal “unworthiness” as an Emperor than for any perceived endemic flaws in the Imperial system itself.

It is left to Sòng Jiàorén, in fact, a Classical Liberal of the Yòu faction, to create the idiom to describe Guozu’s disastrous reign:

“Yī chéng, qī bài”

In Chinese, the term “chéngyŭ ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengyu)” refers to a four-word phrase quoted often as a proverb. In this case, the chéngyŭ means “One part success to seven parts failure,” as evidenced by:

"One Success"
Guozu overthrew the Dowager Empress.

"Seven Failures"
1. The expensive, wasteful, and ultimately disastrous colonization of Mongolia.

2. The pointless and expensive forays into Tibet in search of mythical mineral wealth.

3. A domestic agenda of botched and weak democratic "reform" attempts which did nothing to expand civil liberties or promote accountability in government.

4. Lack of any attempts at land reform, coupled with restrictions of workers’ rights for the sake of ultimately failed "industrialization" efforts.

5. The deaths of tens of millions of Chinese from the Pandemic, with no changes in Imperial policy, or even acknowledgment.

6. Bad decision in getting into the Second Great War, followed by the utterly incompetent execution of its campaigns, leading to internment of the Fleet and loss of the Southern Army with no benefit.

7. Fled the country without any concern for the welfare of the people, or even a formal abdication.

"Yī chéng, qī bài" becomes a common expression in the language for a success at the beginning followed by bumbling in the follow-through.

General Chinese Attitudes

Not all Chinese despise the Emperor, of course. Nor do all Chinese wish to see the Imperial system dismantled. And certainly not at Chinese are sympathetic to Communism. But it is nevertheless true that Guozu’s policies never did do the ordinary Chinese any good, whereas the Mutual Aid Asociations created by the Communists have provided basic and technical education, healthcare, workers’ compensation, unemployment and funeral insurance (the latter very important in Chinese culture), and financial assistance in the form of interest-free loans to members.

Moreover, as it becomes clear that the Yòu faction is trying to wean people away from Communism, the Zuŏ protest loudly, though entirely through word-of-mouth, at how the Guódăng are financing and supporting an attempt to break apart the Nationalist coalition while the Japanese Imperial Army is still murdering Chinese on Chinese soil.

In short, this ham-handed propaganda attempt will mostly backfire due to superior Communist organization.

You may be following my suggestions, Sharina, but you’re not doing it well. In whatever successor government exists there will be a strong left-wing contingent, and you won't get rid of it by playing the blame game on people who are actually feeding and clothing and educating ordinary Chinese far more than the government is even capable of. No Revolution would have occurred in China were the country not unusually receptive to it in ways that Guozu never addressed convincingly. A similar Revolution would be impossible in, say, Japan, or Great Britain, because those are very different countries.

Once again, I strongly advise you to do research on twentieth-century Chinese history, Chinese culture, Chinese history in general, and important chinese historical persons.

ooc
I agree with the assessment... the Nationalist cause is doomed unless it comes up with a way to use the traditionalism of the Imperial structure, somehow stops the Japanese, and provides massive aid to the people. Not that this is easy. The only way I can see is appoint a regent, select a puppet Emperour, start a new dynasty, beg for a cease fire with the Japanese who may have bigger problems than you shortly, write off the territories lost except for maybe Sechuan, and spend every dime you can on social spending.

It still may not be enough at this point.

OOC: The Union is covering social for all of the chinese still under nationalist rule. About the rest of that, thats Sharina's area, I'm just taking care of the war effort.

Tito has declared his support to the Union in this war, but does not see reason to declare war, and get into all the politics and problems that go with that. As such the 1st and 2nd Mechanized Corps(soon to be 1st Mech and 2nd Armored) will be sent as the Jugoslavija-Soviet Experditionary Army or the J-SEA for short.

The 1st Mech corp (currently in the MEU) will come under Soviet control immediately, to be returned at the request of the Federation's request or end of hostilities.

The 2nd Mech Corps (currently in Kashgar) will come under Soviet control starting in 1936 as the 1st Armored Corps, as it completes upgrades and peacekeeping in Kashgar.

Also the 1st Fighter Air Fleet will be sent to help the Russians, along with it's pilots in the newly recieved IK-3's.

Situation end of December 1934

Tibet has declared independence and is a LTA client state for all practical purposes. Until spring though it will not receive any more aid.

Mongolia, Manchuria and the Turkmani-Uigar Republic have declared independence and are Union client states for all practical purposes.

The remainder of China consists of Nationalist China, Occupied China and Warlord held areas.

The Union, Rumania, Hungary (and I assume any NPC Pact nations) have declared war on Japan. Which is at war with Nationalist China. However, Nationalist China and the Pact do not have a formal alliance. The LTA has provided aid to both Nationalist China and Japan. Union forces began in November in Siberia, and have moved into Manchuria and Kashgaria (the Turkmani-Uigar Republic). Although some skirmishes occurred in the air, but no significant fighting between the Pact and Japan has occurred, principally because of the severe weather in November and December prevented them from getting at each other. French units move during the Nationalist Chinese phase.

That weather will remain the same for the January February turn, and the Japanese retain the initiative, then the Nationalists, then the Pact (I have already rolled both). Forces that will finish production in January are not yet on the map. The Union has sufficient strategic moves to shift 10 corps or air units a turn into Siberia or Manchuria or Kashgaria from Europe or Central Asia. This is the maximum the railroads can actually handle in the way of traffic. Infantry and cavalry count as half a unit for strategic move purposes (fewer vehicles). Any French strategic moves count against the Union strategic deployment limit. Due to damage, the loss of critical cities, and disruption, the Nationalist Chinese railroads cannot be used for strategic moves by either side. At this point they are functioning just barely enough to move food and critical supplies around.

Those railroads can be repaired for a cost of 30 points, and it will take 12 months to accomplish. (basically replacing rolling stock, bridges and communications links). Nationalist China is considered separate from Occupied China and Warlord territory for this purpose. Occupied China will require another 20 points and Warlord China 10 more to replace the rolling stock and damage inflicted to the railroads there.

All factions (except for the Warlords and Tibetans) have sufficient oil to fuel their needs at this time from various sources.

Special Note on Warlords: A city (and the forces controlled by it) under the control of a warlord will join either the Nationalist or Japanese or Pact faction if the following occurs:
a. 4 combat units and 1 HQ move adjacent to that city.
b. It is isolated due to a faction controlling the sea around it and the land connection to it (Hainan specifically in this case, if the Japanese take the hex directly adjacent to Canton and west of it, Hainan will become a Japanese controlled client state).
c. A faction spends 1 production point to get a chance at changing the government of that city (by assassination or coup) and that government then declares for that faction. 1 in 6 for Nationalist or 1 in 8 for Japan (Japan is looking like it will win at the moment from their perspective).
Warlord cities taken this way provide production points to the new owner beginning the next turn.

Special Note on Nationalist China: If both Sian and Peking fall to the Japanese, all cities that are not occupied by either French, Pact or Japanese forces become warlord states. Essentially the Nationalist cause is reduced to yet another warlord.

Remember, for 1935, all factions must pay maintenance on their armed forces, then any social spending, then divide the remaining points available by 6 for points available per turn.

Warlord forces
2 garrison units each Chunking (has 1 factory) Chengtu (has 3 factories), and Lanchow (has 1 factory). 1 Garrison unit Hainan,

Nationalist Chinese forces
Production: Peking (3 factories), Tientsin (3 factories), Kunming (2 factories) for 8 points a turn. This gives Nationalist China 48 points for the year, at wartime production.

2 garrison units each at Peking, Taiyuan, and Tientsin. 3 Fighter units (P26), 1 bomber units (A12), 4 pilots at Peking (plus 2 2-engined transport aircraft in reserve without pilots allocated).
2 garrison units 1 fighter unit (P26), 1 pilot at Sian. Special note: If Sian falls, the northern and southern sections of China will be completely cut off from one another. There is a chance at that point that southern China (1 in 6) that the forces in Southern China will break from the Nationalist side, and form warlord states of their own. For every Nationalist city that falls to the Japanese at that point, the chance increases by 1 in 6.
2 Infantry corps each Kunming, Nanning, and Kwieyang. 2 garrison units at Changsa. 1 Infantry corps northwest of Canton, 1 infantry corps west of Canton. 2 Infantry corps each Wuhan and Hangchow.

Japanese Forces
2 mechanized corps Shanghai, 1 fighter unit (Oscar), 1 bomber unit (Peggy), 2 pilots at Shanghai. 1 infantry corps Tsinan, 2 mechanized corps, 1 HQ at Chengchow. Japan also controls but does not currently have forces in Nanking and Tsingtao. 1 Naval air unit (Nell), 1 garrison unit in Formosa. 2 Infantry corps at Canton. Hong Kong is controlled by Japan.

Japanese Navy
Northern Fleet (covering Yellow and East China Sea)
Battle Force: Battleships Yamato, Mushashi, Nagato, Mikasa, light cruisers Kimu, Naara, 20 tech level 5 destroyers plus invasion fleet of 1 amphibious fleet, 2 transports (taken from 2 shipping units). Japan can move by sea 6 infantry or marine units or 3 other units a turn.
Striking Force: Carriers Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku, heavy cruisers Furutaka, Kako, light cruiser Yubari, 20 tech 5 destroyers plus 2 carrier fighters, 2 carrier torpedo bombers, 2 carrier dive bombers
Blockade Force: heavy cruisers Nachi, Myoko, light cruisers Sendai, Kiso, 18 tech level 5 destroyers plus 20 submarines

Southern Fleet (covering South China Sea)
light cruiser Jintsu, 20 tech level 5 destroyers

In reserve
Home Fleet (Tokyo Bay)
Battleships Fuso, Yamashiro, Hyugan, Kirishima, Hiei, heavy cruisers Kinguasa, Haguro, Ashigara, Kitsugari, Aoba, light cruiser Naka, 20 tech level 5 destroyers, 10 tech level 6 destroyers, 1 4-engined naval air unit (Mavis flying boats) Carriers Kongo, Hiei (neither have aircraft or pilots at the moment), 20 submarines

Japan has the following Production:
Japan 66 (includes points from US, NEI, Formosa) of which 18 are from US, NEI and Formasa, 26 are from commerce (26 shipping units), leaving 22 points as base production. As Japan is at war, this is now 44 points, and next year, if Japan is still at war it will have 66 production points plus what it gets from commerce and from overseas. Mexico provides another 3 points a turn. Japan has 50 million people, and must spend a minimum of level 1 for social services (which includes education).

French Expeditionary Force China
2 mechanized corps, 1 artillery unit northwest of Tsinan. 2 mechanized corps west of Tsinan, 1 mountain corps northwest of Tsina. 1 Mechanized corps, 1 HQ unit, 1 rocket artillery unit west of Peking. 2 fighter units (D520), 1 bomber unit,. 3 pilots at Taiyuan. 1 Fighter unit (D520), 2 naval air units, 3 pilots at Tsingtao.

Mongolia
2 garrison units Ulan Bator, 3 cavalry corps, 1 theater supply unit, 2 artillery units within 1 hex of Ulan Bator

Kashgaria
2 garrison units each Kashgar, Urumchi, 2 artillery units, 1 theater supply unit, 3 cavalry corps within 1 hex of Urumchi. 1 Yugoslav mechanized corps adjacent to Kashgar.

Manchuria
2 garrison units each Mukden (Shenyang), Port Arthur (Gongjiing), Harbin. 1 flak unit, 1 coast artillery unit Gongjiing (which is also a fortified hex), 1 flak unit Shenyang, 1 mechanized corps, 1 artillery unit, 1 rocket artillery unit mountain hex north of Tsingtao, 1 mechanized corps, 1 artillery unit mountain hex east of Gongjiing. 1 Theater supply unit north of Gongjiing.

Pact Forces
(to be added as soon as I sort through all of them)

OOC:

(rubs eyes after wincing in pain)

Now I'm totally overwhelmed with GB's latest post about the factions, special conditions, troop deployments, railroads, etc. Not to mention the other post he made about the communists and democracy factions in China.

Basically all I want for China at this point, and post-war is to become a democracy. I don't want it to become communist like RL China with the starvations, Purges, "Great Leap Forward", censorship of freedoms (speech, beliefs, religion, ideals, etc.), or "I kill or imprison you if you don't agree with the Party" crap.

That aside, there's too much information for me to handle right now with GB's latest post. I feel like my head's gonna explode. :(

OOC:

(rubs eyes after wincing in pain)

Now I'm totally overwhelmed with GB's latest post about the factions, special conditions, troop deployments, railroads, etc. Not to mention the other post he made about the communists and democracy factions in China.

Basically all I want for China at this point, and post-war is to become a democracy. I don't want it to become communist like RL China with the starvations, Purges, "Great Leap Forward", censorship of freedoms (speech, beliefs, religion, ideals, etc.), or "I kill or imprison you if you don't agree with the Party" crap.

That aside, there's too much information for me to handle right now with GB's latest post. I feel like my head's gonna explode. :(


OOC: China , you misunderstanding what they are saying, listen to reason. YOU WON'T BECOME LIKE RL CHINA, post war China maybe like very Socailist, but NOT LIKE RL CHINA. They have point, listen to reason, before you start saying the following"OMG, THEY ARE FORCING ME TO BECOME A COMMIE", listen just chill out, and listen...odds are that you can try to shape your China leftism to socalist Democary like rl Sweden or something. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE MAOIST STATE, bear that in mind.

Don't worry about all that nonsense. That's for me to worry about.

*trumpet plays*

DUH DUH DUHHHH!

I'm back in action taking command of General Heinz Guderian's army. Consider your country saved!

As for what happens to it afterwords... well, I'm a Warrior. I don't mess with Politics :p

ooc
Fluffywuffy, need war plans from you

The US is shifting forces into the Western Pacific on a large scale

1 corps is adjacent to Nanning at this time. You only have 1 that I know of.

OOC: Huh? how did that happen? I sent two in, one two secure the country and the second to secure th border with China, my third infantry company was going to secure the Vietnam border with China.

IC: The Chinese Government demands that Vietnam pulls its troops out of Chinese territory within the month, is this the way a nation shows gratitude to the nation that granted it its independence and soveriegnty? If Vietnam does not pull its troops out of China then China will return Vietnam to its previous status, be it 6 months from now or 6 years. China has been around for a thousand years and in that time we have developed very long memories, we might not be able to do anything about your actions now but we will remember, China will never forget who sided against.

IC:
Communique to the nationalist chinese government

Your demands are laughable at best, you are beset on all sides by forces that add up to a greater sum that yourself and yet you would deign to crush those that wish no harm to you?
The people and governments of Indo-China drew away from you and then pleaded us to protect them from outside agression.
The Vietnamese troops in Laos and Cambodia have not fired a shot in anger against China or any other power, the are there as peace keepers requested by the rightful governments of those lands and that is the way it will stay.

The Vietnamese people are so far neutral in this war. Do not make an enemy of us, for it will be something you regret.

Nyugyen Ai Quoc.

OOC:

(rubs eyes after wincing in pain)

Now I'm totally overwhelmed with GB's latest post about the factions, special conditions, troop deployments, railroads, etc. Not to mention the other post he made about the communists and democracy factions in China.

Basically all I want for China at this point, and post-war is to become a democracy. I don't want it to become communist like RL China with the starvations, Purges, "Great Leap Forward", censorship of freedoms (speech, beliefs, religion, ideals, etc.), or "I kill or imprison you if you don't agree with the Party" crap.

That aside, there's too much information for me to handle right now with GB's latest post. I feel like my head's gonna explode. :(
The "other post" to which you refer was written by me, as you'd be able to tell if you paid attention. You know, the guy with the degree in Chinese history. The guy who speaks Chinese (admittedly badly). If you don't feel competent to run a large, complex, challenging country like China, you can always take something else.

I have no sympathy for your helplessness, it's worn out my patience. E20 contains an explicit agreement to respect realism as much as possible. Just because you want something to happen doesn't necessarily mean you'll be capable of making it happen. People make mistakes.

It's nice that you want "democracy" in China, though I have my doubts about your ability to RP it effectively. And nothing you've done so far is realistically going to make that happen.

If you'd known anything about Twentieth Century Chinese history, you'd know about warlords, and political factions, and the United Front policy. You'd know who Song Jiaoren was. Who Zhu De was, or Zhang Xueliang, or Chen Duxiu, or Lu Xun. But you've never, and still haven't as far as I can tell, done any research, despite having been advised and warned to do so over many E20 years/RL months. You don't know anything more about China now than when you started, and you shouldn't be surprised that your ignorance has had undesirable consequences. I'd wager even now you couldn't name the ten major dynasties of China in order. Frankly I'd be surprised if you could even name one dynasty other than the Qing.

If you spent as much time studying as you do trying to justify yourself, you'd be doing a lot better.

OOC: Huh? how did that happen? I sent two in, one two secure the country and the second to secure th border with China, my third infantry company was going to secure the Vietnam border with China.

ok, so 2 infantry corps are adjacent to Nanning. I was unsure as to how much you sent into China. The post was buried in a flood of other peoples posts, some of which were painfully off topic

OOC:

Actually I did ask for suggestions and feedback during the 1920's. For instance, I asked how to implement an effective democratic system that closely matches Britain or the US while preserving the Chinese Emperor. I basically got "Sure, I'll look into it in a bit" or "Okay. I'll get back to you on that." The same thing went for when I wanted to build dams and undertake an effort to combat one of the worst natural problems in China, namely flooding. I also was trying to expand the economy like building more railroads, planning on bringing electricity to Chinese cities, institute a simpler alphabet and writing system like pigmyin (spell?), and so on. All this was being tried and being done before the point system entered the picture.

Also, during the 1920's I was not told that my Emperor was becoming quite unpopular. If that actually happened, I would have looked into ways and took measures to deal with that. The first I remember being told about my Emperor being evil and unpopular was in 1933, basically last week in RL when the rebellions started up.

By the way, the major dynasties in China's RL history are as follows... Zhou, Qin, Han, Sui, Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming, then the Ch'ing / Qing / Manchu. The two mythological dynasties predating the Zhou dynasty are the Xia and Shang dynasties. Thus, I'm not as stupid as you think I am.

The only reason why I'm bugged out and overwhelmed because of all the stats, numbers, and data GB posted yesterday. Soon I might need a full sized manual to understand the combat and economic system in E20, like I need a manual to learn the intricaties of Civilization games or Age of Empires games.

OOC:

I wanted to add one more thing before I head off to work.

I was planning to have an agricultural revolution with or without the point system, and I had planned it to take place starting in the late 20's or early 30's once I had sufficient technologies to constuct farming machinery like tractors or harvesters.

I was going to introduce mechanized harvesters for wheat and rice, like the following...

http://www.philrice.gov.ph/prorice/graphics/rice_stripper%20SG%20800.jpg

http://www.philrice.gov.ph/prorice/graphics/Rotary%20Reaper_01.jpg

http://www.philrice.gov.ph/prorice/graphics/lite_stripper%20LS%20600.jpg

http://www.csiro.au/page.asp?type=imageDef&id=harvesterlarge

http://www.gotouring.com/razzledazzle/images/riceharvest.jpg

------------------------

As you can see and should know by now, I wanted to focus domestically on China, develop it, modernize it, etc. instead of blatantly warmongering like the Europeans in this timeline so far. I don't have world domination in mind, as I only want to dominate the Oriental part of Asia and possibly the islands off Asia like Indonesia, Malaysia, Sumatara, etc. and that's pretty much about it.

And if I had known all these domestic issues in the 1920's then I would have immediately and promptly addressed them. The only hint to a domestic problem I had during 1920's was "National Effort may have consquences".

Message to all nations offering aid to Viet Nam

We thank you for generously offering aid in our time of national development, however there are those more needy than us to the extent that without outside help they will only be subjugated to yet more imperialistic rule.

We therefoe ask that you supply some of the aid that you would have given to Viet Nam, instead give it to the newly free governments of Laos and Cambodia.

Prime Minister,
Nyugyen Ai Quoc



Vietnamese advisors are being readied to go into Laos and Cambodia to help advise the governments there on the best way to transistion to a representative democracy.

Secret IC
Then the US offers to fully equip the Vietnamese Army and Air Force and also to build a couple of factories in Vietnam and provide 2 merchant shipping units, plus aircraft to start a national airline if Vietnam signs a defense treaty with the US.

Secret communique to the United States government

While we do desperately need aid and would like favourable relations with your great country. We feel that we cannot join the LTA due to its anti socailist motives. However we would be willing to have some sort of pact with the USA outside of the LTA.

Prime Minister,
Nyugen Ai Quoc

Britain supports the membership of Vietnam into the LTA. However if this is not feasible then Britain would like to make an offer of a mutual defence pact with Vietnam especially in line with recent aid that Britain has supplied to the nation in the past and has promised for the future.

While for matters of pricipal Viet Nam cannot join the LTA we would consider having a mutual defence pact with Britain.

Prime Minister,
Nyugen Ai Quoc

By the way, the major dynasties in China's RL history are as follows... Zhou, Qin, Han, Sui, Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming, then the Ch'ing / Qing / Manchu. The two mythological dynasties predating the Zhou dynasty are the Xia and Shang dynasties. Thus, I'm not as stupid as you think I am.
Okay, you're not as stupid as I think you are. That's a good start. But.

I only want to dominate the Oriental part of Asia and possibly the islands off Asia like Indonesia, Malaysia, Sumatara, etc.
You complain about having more population than you can effectively service and yet you want responsibility over more people?

Here's a map (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/china_population_83.jpg), by the way, showing RL China's population density in 1983. As you can see, the breakaway republics would have very little of China's overall population. That's because they're mostly high mountains or uninhabitable desert. Remember when you tried to send twenty million people into Outer Mongolia? How did you expect them to survive?

Here's an ethnolinguistic map (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/china_ethnolinguistic_83.jpg) showing, more or less, the distribution of Han territories. As you can see, they match up pretty closely with population density and with the borders of the breakaway republics. That's why the term "China proper" exists.

during the 1920's I was not told that my Emperor was becoming quite unpopular.
Twenty-two million Chinese died in 1924 during the Pandemic. The Emperor's response? The next year he led his country into a war even he didn't want and suffered the loss of an entire army and the humiliating and deliberate internment of his fleet (think about it: what naval commander do you know who would appreciate being ordered to make himself and his men prisoners of war?), and was subsequently compelled to pay reparations. Then, after the war, he ordered his people to work and live like slaves for the next eight years. You need someone to tell you the Emperor would be unpopular under these circumstances?

By comparison, in the old USDR, Premier Bukharin saved eight million lives during the Ukrainian Drought, successfully resolved two major crises in the Balkans and one in Spain, and people still hated him, because they were displaced and impoverished by the Drought and because he was forced into a war by the United States. In the new SPCU, Chairman Trotsky ordered a National Effort to industrialize the country, which required backbreaking labor by the people, but throughout the Five Year Plan basic services like education, healthcare, and pensions were provided for, in contrast to the Chinese Grand Expansion Plan.

Actually I did ask for suggestions and feedback during the 1920's.
You got suggestions in the 1920's. Claiming you didn't is total bull.

You explicitly devised a system based on the Prussian Constitution (which in E20 failed in both Germany and Russia, which should've warned you right there), whereby the Emperor maintained total control over the military and the national government while allowing for "democracy on the local level." You never RP'd anything more about it, never appointed (let alone elected) a Prime Minister, so it's reasonable to assume it probably wasn't particularly effective.

Moreover, you were warned explicitly on several occasions about labor agitation during the 1920's. I do not remember you ever developing any coherent or plausible plans to deal with it.

I wanted to build dams and undertake an effort to combat one of the worst natural problems in China, namely flooding. I also was trying to expand the economy like building more railroads, planning on bringing electricity to Chinese cities, institute a simpler alphabet and writing system like pigmyin (spell?), and so on.
Pinyin. And that was discussed.

All these things were done. E20 China in 1934 was far more highly developed than RL China in 1934. You succeeded in prolonging an intensely unpopular dynastic system (the Qing were hated, and by the end there, the Tian dynasty was just considered the "Late Qing") by 23 years, and built up China extensively. You were fairly successful in comparison to RL, actually. A very, very skilled player might have been able to prolong the Imperial system indefinitely. But they'd have had to really know their history, to be able to identify the specific points at which major differences could have been made by specific people doing specific things.

You continue to have trouble with that, and spend more time complaining and arguing than RP'ing. It reminds me of Amestria.

One last thing. You mention that "The only hint to a domestic problem I had during 1920's was 'National Effort may have consquences.'"

The "consequences" were not the Revolutions. The consequences were the vulnerability to the Revolutions. Left to your devices, small uprisings and strikes probably would have started on their own, and, depending on how you responded to them, either they would have gradually grown or petered out over the course of the next few years.

The Soviet Union, however, allocated over thirty percent of its budget for 1934 (almost as much as China's total budget) to funding and organizing revolutionary activity in China. It was deliberate foreign intervention that made the difference.

Secret communique to the United States government

While we do desperately need aid and would like favourable relations with your great country. We feel that we cannot join the LTA due to its anti socailist motives. However we would be willing to have some sort of pact with the USA outside of the LTA.

Prime Minister,
Nyugen Ai Quoc

The United States government will be sending Secretary of State Cordell Hull to Vietnam for further discussions (ooc, he will arrive in February by plane. To avoid clutter in this thread, I will post further on this issue in the Vietnam thread later today).

You complain about having more population than you can effectively service and yet you want responsibility over more people?

Here's a map (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/china_population_83.jpg), by the way, showing RL China's population density in 1983. As you can see, the breakaway republics would have very little of China's overall population. That's because they're mostly high mountains or uninhabitable desert. Remember when you tried to send twenty million people into Outer Mongolia? How did you expect them to survive?

Here's an ethnolinguistic map (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/china_ethnolinguistic_83.jpg) showing, more or less, the distribution of Han territories. As you can see, they match up pretty closely with population density and with the borders of the breakaway republics. That's why the term "China proper" exists.

The Unified Orient I want to go for would be similiar to the USSR (similiar to how it comprised of Russia, Ukraine, Kahazistan (spell?), Belarus, Poland, and so on, but without the suppression of freedom under the RL USSR) Or the way the USA is set up with 50 states- in my case it'd be states of China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Mongolia, etc... or another example is these unification events like how Sweden reunified with Norway and Denmark, and how Gran Colombia reunified.

Twenty-two million Chinese died in 1924 during the Pandemic. The Emperor's response? The next year he led his country into a war even he didn't want and suffered the loss of an entire army and the humiliating and deliberate internment of his fleet (think about it: what naval commander do you know who would appreciate being ordered to make himself and his men prisoners of war?), and was subsequently compelled to pay reparations. Then, after the war, he ordered his people to work and live like slaves for the next eight years. You need someone to tell you the Emperor would be unpopular under these circumstances?

I was under the assumption that the plague was dealt with automatically as the war was already going on. My Emperor went to war to appease the Pact so that the Pact wouldn't turn on China. The fleet was to be interned to prevent it from being 100% destroyed by the combined US and UK fleet. "Live to fight another day" was the angle I was going for with the internment of the fleet. The Chinese people had to do tremendous amount of work to expand its weak economy to become able to sustain decent social safety nets, because it costs a lot for China to use safety nets.

You got suggestions in the 1920's. Claiming you didn't is total bull.

You explicitly devised a system based on the Prussian Constitution (which in E20 failed in both Germany and Russia, which should've warned you right there), whereby the Emperor maintained total control over the military and the national government while allowing for "democracy on the local level." You never RP'd anything more about it, never appointed (let alone elected) a Prime Minister, so it's reasonable to assume it probably wasn't particularly effective.

Moreover, you were warned explicitly on several occasions about labor agitation during the 1920's. I do not remember you ever developing any coherent or plausible plans to deal with it.

I must have overlooked the issues about labor stuff, as it was pretty hectic post-wise during the 1920's with the Great War 2 and all the stuff happening right afer the time warp and before the Great War 2.

Also, whenever I did things like dams, railroads, electricity, democracy, etc. it was pretty much approved, so I thought that it was OK and that it would work without too much problem.

------------------------

Anyways, all that aside, I have decided to give up on trying to keep an Emperor, and go for a democracy instead. I'm going with the flow, otherwise, I'd argue and bitch and such to keep my Emperor (which I'm not anymore).

I may try to reintroduce an Emperor in the future or have a Facism thing lead to that like Hitler became "Fuhrer". Then again, I may not do that, depending on how the war turns out, and the world geo-political and state of affairs later on.

But for now, I'm just happy if I can have China become a democracy, which is quite alternate from RL China. Socialist Democracy or Capitalist Democracy, either one works for me.

Sharina: Okay. Hopefully we can stop cluttering up the thread, then. Just remember it's not going to be easy to get to where to you want to be, and I'll try to be more considerate in supplying advice if you'll try to actually take it.

Galveston Bay:You have the following forces, among others, listed for Manchuria: 1 mechanized corps, 1 artillery unit, 1 rocket artillery unit mountain hex north of Tsing-tao (Qingdao in pinyin). I assume you mean Tian-tsin (Tianjin in pinyin). It would really suck to have PLA units north of Qingdao.

Sharina: Okay. Hopefully we can stop cluttering up the thread, then. Just remember it's not going to be easy to get to where to you want to be, and I'll try to be more considerate in supplying advice if you'll try to actually take it.

Galveston Bay:You have the following forces, among others, listed for Manchuria: 1 mechanized corps, 1 artillery unit, 1 rocket artillery unit mountain hex north of Tsing-tao (Qingdao in pinyin). I assume you mean Tian-tsin (Tianjin in pinyin). It would really suck to have PLA units north of Qingdao.

OOC: (Last post about this situation)

Its agreed, then Vas. If we need to discuss these things more, lets do it in the main thread. And of course I definitely will welcome any advice how to go about what I envision for China, and I will take it. After the war, I have quite a number of civilian stuff I want to do, and I'm not sure how to do that with the point system. For example, I want to research and build farming machines like rice harvesters and such, and build lots of subways and apartment high rises in Chinese cities, and so on.

Anyways, back to the war thread and that's the end of the OOC discussions over the past day. If needed, it will continue elsewhere.

[

Galveston Bay:You have the following forces, among others, listed for Manchuria: 1 mechanized corps, 1 artillery unit, 1 rocket artillery unit mountain hex north of Tsing-tao (Qingdao in pinyin). I assume you mean Tian-tsin (Tianjin in pinyin). It would really suck to have PLA units north of Qingdao.

you are correct... all of those Tians start to run together late at night

In early January, the intelligence reports filter into Japan of a massive Union response. 2 Army groups, plus another army ground in reserve headed into Manchuria, with another group assembing in eastern Siberia. Even now some of the harder line generals want to fight, but in the end, the Navy and more realistic generals manage to persuade the stubborn ones that the Japanese Army cannot afford to get itself destroyed trying to fight for territory it can't hold. While it was still time, an evacuation was in order.

The Japanese pull back to Shanghai and then complete their withdrawal by the end of February.

ooc
without orders, I am going to assume even the Japanese, noted for suicidal bravery, aren't going to fight a futile struggle at this juncture. The true Fascist types don't control the country just yet.

IC
Japanese forces at Tsinsan, Chengtow and Shangahi are withdrawn to the Japanese home islands, while air units are shifted south to Canton. (ooc, the Japanese can't evacuate everything at once. As it is, they are forced to shift 2 shipping units into transport units to pull this off).

Meanwhile, next to Canton, the Japanese launch an attack against Chinese forces west of Canton and destroy the Chinese corps in that area, isolating Hainan. The garrison there then makes a deal with Japan and becomes a Japanese client state.

In southern China, Vietnamese and Nationalist Chinese skirmish (without orders) before pulling back a few miles to break contact.

By the end of February Union forces reach the Yellow River, while French forces move into the emptied Japanese positions liberating Tsinan, Tsingtao, Chenghow while Nationalist forces liberate Shanghai and Nanking.

The French press trumpets the bloodless victory, speaking of the barbaric Japanese being forced to abandon their positions due to overwhelming French and Union forces.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20SovietUnionmd.gif

With the withdrawal of Japanese Imperial troops from the Mainland, Guderian's mandate is reduced to maintaining the currently-recognized international borders (http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20Eastasia19341.gif) (Guderian is specifically instructed not to commit Union forces to the attempt to regain Chinese sovereignty over the warlords). Warsaw will unilaterally declare a ceasefire and dispatch former President Radek to Tokyo to negotiate a permanent settlement.

France accepts the cease-fire and will be sending Yvon Delbos to Tokyo to accompany Radek and represent France at any talks.

ooc
I hate to spoil this outbreak of possible peace, but the Japanese still hold Canton and Hong Kong and Foochow at the moment

ooc
I hate to spoil this outbreak of possible peace, but the Japanese still hold Canton and Hong Kong and Foochow at the moment
The ceasefire orders remain unchanged for the moment, as does the decision to send Radek to Tokyo.

The venerable Chinese ambassador, Lu Hong, will be attending the cease-fire talks. Several major points on his agenda are as follows (that he will discuss at the cease-fire talks):

1. Japan pays reparations for all the destroyed economy, industry, and infrastructure in the cities that Japan attacked, occupied, and devastated. Namely the costs to repair factories in Shanghai, Canton, Hong Kong, etc.

2. Japan is to fully withdraw from the Chinese mainland back to the Japanese Home Islands.

3. Japan must answer for the atrocities committed with the gas WMD weapons used aganist the Chinese and French. Either additional reparations or another type of repayment for these terrible war crimes.

4. Hainan Dao is to be returned to China.

5. Discuss the future of Formosa, as well as a treaty forbidding Japanese to station Airforce and Navy in Formosa.

6. Discuss limitations on Japan's military so that its warmongering will be curtailed, and not to threaten China, Korea, Vietnam, Union, or other Pacific Powers.

-----------------------

Thats pretty much the gist what China wants to do. After all, China has been the victim of a brutual Japanese invasion, along with atrocities with the gas warfare.

The venerable Chinese ambassador, Lu Hong, will be attending the cease-fire talks. Several major points on his agenda are as follows (that he will discuss at the cease-fire talks):

1. Japan pays reparations for all the destroyed economy, industry, and infrastructure in the cities that Japan attacked, occupied, and devastated. Namely the costs to repair factories in Shanghai, Canton, Hong Kong, etc.

2. Japan is to fully withdraw from the Chinese mainland back to the Japanese Home Islands.

3. Japan must answer for the atrocities committed with the gas WMD weapons used aganist the Chinese and French. Either additional reparations or another type of repayment for these terrible war crimes.

4. Hainan Dao is to be returned to China.

5. Discuss the future of Formosa, as well as a treaty forbidding Japanese to station Airforce and Navy in Formosa.

6. Discuss limitations on Japan's military so that its warmongering will be curtailed, and not to threaten China, Korea, Vietnam, Union, or other Pacific Powers.

-----------------------

Thats pretty much the gist what China wants to do. After all, China has been the victim of a brutual Japanese invasion, along with atrocities with the gas warfare.


ooc
as Japan hasn't even made an offer for a cease fire yet, these are a bit premature. Your advisors tell you that short of outright defeat (which has not occured) there is no way Japan will agree to your terms under any conditions short of unconditional defeat. Possibly not even then.

In addition, there are no such things as weapons of mass destruction as a concept in 1935, even in this timeline. Especially as chemical weapons are not illegal under any treaty (unless I missed something, which is possible).

In addition, the US will through back channels let China know that it should be happy to get condition 2. The US will back Japan on any refusal to accept the other terms. In the US view, irresponsable action by the Chinese government triggered the war between China and Japan. Although the US is not happy about the use of chemical weapons, and sees the need for a treaty ending the use of such horrific weapons, it also recognizes that Japan used them against military targets for the most part, and Chinese civilian casualties were a regretable and a tragedy of war.

Furthermore, if China insists on these demands, the US will recognize Manchuria, Tibet, and the Turkmani-Uighar Republics as independent nations as it already has with Laos, Cambodia and Mongolia.

The military command orders all RVA units to withdraw inside the border of Viet Nam and Laos.
(OOC: I just reliezed they where in China, I sent them to Indo-China. Ineffecincies of command I suppose.)

Viet Nam approaches the governments of Laos and Cambodia and offers political advisors to help form reprresentitive democracies in those countries.

ooc
as Japan hasn't even made an offer for a cease fire yet, these are a bit premature. Your advisors tell you that short of outright defeat (which has not occured) there is no way Japan will agree to your terms under any conditions short of unconditional defeat. Possibly not even then.

In addition, there are no such things as weapons of mass destruction as a concept in 1935, even in this timeline. Especially as chemical weapons are not illegal under any treaty (unless I missed something, which is possible).

In addition, the US will through back channels let China know that it should be happy to get condition 2. The US will back Japan on any refusal to accept the other terms. In the US view, irresponsable action by the Chinese government triggered the war between China and Japan. Although the US is not happy about the use of chemical weapons, and sees the need for a treaty ending the use of such horrific weapons, it also recognizes that Japan used them against military targets for the most part, and Chinese civilian casualties were a regretable and a tragedy of war.

Furthermore, if China insists on these demands, the US will recognize Manchuria, Tibet, and the Turkmani-Uighar Republics as independent nations as it already has with Laos, Cambodia and Mongolia.

OOC:

Conditions 1, 2, and 3 are the most important to China and China will basically require these conditions for peace. Conditions 4, 5, and 6 are secondary objectives / priorities that can be dropped if it becomes serious roadblocks to the peace treaty / ceasefire.

China will demand Japan pay for the horrific damages that it has caused, especially with all the refugees, ruined factories, wrecked economy, etc. in Shanghai, Canton, Hong Kong, etc. (Condition 1)

In addition, obviously all Japanese military will be required to leave China and return to the four Japanese Home Islands. (Condition 2)

Finally, the gas attacks are an atrocity, therefore, some action needs to be taken about the gas attacks. Perhaps some reparations, or repayment for the atrocity such as giving up Hainan Dao instead of money or some type of different payment than Hainan Dao or money. (Condition 3)


Outright reliniquishing of Hainan Dao (Condition 4), giving up Formosa (Condition 5) and limitations on the Japanese military (Condition 6) aren't as important as the first three points I outlined above. Besides, the Union may also want Japan to reduce its military to be less of a threat to the Union, Manchuria, Korea, etc.

ooc
In addition, there are no such things as weapons of mass destruction as a concept in 1935, even in this timeline. Especially as chemical weapons are not illegal under any treaty (unless I missed something, which is possible).

Chemical weapons are not illegal, of course. In fact, until very recently, the Union staunchly opposed any effort to control them by treaty, since we invented nerve gas and have the largest stockpiles.

But CW is still pretty horrible, and I think the use of nerve gas would qualify as an atrocity for purposes of public perception regardless of whether or not it's technically a legal atrocity under the terms international law (which don't bind Japan anyway, what with the League's Charter Amendment to Article V).

OOC:

Conditions 1, 2, and 3 are the most important to China and China will basically require these conditions for peace. Conditions 4, 5, and 6 are secondary objectives / priorities that can be dropped if it becomes serious roadblocks to the peace treaty / ceasefire.

China will demand Japan pay for the horrific damages that it has caused, especially with all the refugees, ruined factories, wrecked economy, etc. in Shanghai, Canton, Hong Kong, etc. (Condition 1)

In addition, obviously all Japanese military will be required to leave China and return to the four Japanese Home Islands. (Condition 2)

Finally, the gas attacks are an atrocity, therefore, some action needs to be taken about the gas attacks. Perhaps some reparations, or repayment for the atrocity such as giving up Hainan Dao instead of money or some type of different payment than Hainan Dao or money. (Condition 3)


Outright reliniquishing of Hainan Dao (Condition 4), giving up Formosa (Condition 5) and limitations on the Japanese military (Condition 6) aren't as important as the first three points I outlined above. Besides, the Union may also want Japan to reduce its military to be less of a threat to the Union, Manchuria, Korea, etc.


OOC:You did not beat Japan into submission, I highly doubt they'll listen to ANY of your conditions other than Status Quo Antebellum, you are in absolutely no condition to dictate terms.

OOC:

Conditions 1, 2, and 3 are the most important to China and China will basically require these conditions for peace. Conditions 4, 5, and 6 are secondary objectives / priorities that can be dropped if it becomes serious roadblocks to the peace treaty / ceasefire.

China will demand Japan pay for the horrific damages that it has caused, especially with all the refugees, ruined factories, wrecked economy, etc. in Shanghai, Canton, Hong Kong, etc. (Condition 1)

In addition, obviously all Japanese military will be required to leave China and return to the four Japanese Home Islands. (Condition 2)

Finally, the gas attacks are an atrocity, therefore, some action needs to be taken about the gas attacks. Perhaps some reparations, or repayment for the atrocity such as giving up Hainan Dao instead of money or some type of different payment than Hainan Dao or money. (Condition 3)


Outright reliniquishing of Hainan Dao (Condition 4), giving up Formosa (Condition 5) and limitations on the Japanese military (Condition 6) aren't as important as the first three points I outlined above. Besides, the Union may also want Japan to reduce its military to be less of a threat to the Union, Manchuria, Korea, etc.

ooc
due to no Fluffywuffy at the moment I will handle Japan

IC
China is informed that the Japanese Empire will withdraw from the Chinese mainland. (ooc which leaves them in Hainan actually). However, all other Chinese conditions are flatly rejected and the Chinese Ambassador is refused admission into Japan as in the view of the Japanese government nothing productive will come of talks with China.

Further Chinese demands will result in continued military action by Japan. In the view of the Japanese government, China started the war by its irresponsable attitude, lack of control of its Navy, and China has a history of aggression. The Japanese then cite Chinese attack on Malaya during the 2nd Great War, invasion of Burma during the same war, annexation of Mongolia and its attempt to destroy the Mongolian people, and its massive navy was a threat to the security of Japan and that threat was clearly demonstrated when it attack Japanese shipping.

Therefore in the view of Japan, its actions against China were in self defense and also a required punative measure to ensure China learned not to be a threat to its neighbors. Japan desires no Chinese territory and has withdrawn.

Once again, all of the Chinese demands are flatly rejected except for the withdrawal of Japanese troops from the mainland of Japan.

However, Japan will sign a general international agreement on the elimination of chemical weapons as a weapon of war.

March
the weather is clear everywhere but in the Arctic (where it remains mud)

The Japanese go first and withdraw their forces from Canton, Hong Kong and Foochow. The US, annoyed at the Chinese demands, promptly cuts off all military aid to China and once again seizes Chinese shipping in US controlled territory (4 shipping units) that it had previously released, and interns them until such time as peace is agreed to between Japan and China. These shipping units are then transferred to Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia as reparations for Chinese misrule.

Chinese consulates are ordered closed (leaving only the Chinese Embassy in Washington) and the US pulls all diplomatic personnel from China except for the staff in Peking.

The US however does also indicate that it will also sign an international agreement banning chemical weapons.

OOC:You did not beat Japan into submission, I highly doubt they'll listen to ANY of your conditions other than Status Quo Antebellum, you are in absolutely no condition to dictate terms.

I was under the assumption that once the war was won aganist Japan, then these several conditions would be put forth at the peace table. I listed the 6 conditions (somewhat OOC'ly), but Lu Hong has yet to arrive in Japan or at the conference itself. Therefore, there should be no IC knowledge of these conditions until the actual conference itself (assuming the war is won by then).

Besides, as follows...

Therefore in the view of Japan, its actions against China were in self defense and also a required punative measure to ensure China learned not to be a threat to its neighbors. Japan desires no Chinese territory and has withdrawn.

China would counter this with the following...

"It is not China who is a threat to its neighbors. China was simply content to liberate Burma from British imperial rule, and the territories of Cambodia and Laos were legimatately bought from France. They were never forcibly introduced into China aganist their own will, as well as there being no subjugation or suppression taking place within Cambodia and Laos. Not only that, but it was also China who granted Vietnam its independence.

The only territory we attacked was Burma. We never attacked Malaysia nor Singapore. As for Mongolia, it was a part of the Chinese Empire for many decades, thus it was within Chinese rights to resettle our people within Mongolia or deal with it as we saw fit up to the point when Mongolia became independent recently.

We never attacked Japan during the Second Great War. In fact, China and Japan reached an agreement to remain neutral towards each other. China has never betrayed its pact with Japan, as it was Japan who betrayed it two times. The first time was a few years prior to the Second Great War, and then the second time was with its invasion of China.

China had pledged reparations and has already issued apologies towards the Japanese lives which were lost in that unfortunate accident. China obliged to Japan's requests for reparations and public apologies, then Japan immediately went to war aganist China.

Instead of working together with China to figure out what happened with the sinking of the Japanese merchant vessel and its escort, and then resolve that situation to make sure it does not occur again, Japan chose to inflict starvation, suffering, massacres, gas weapons, atrocities, and other evils aganist millions of innocent Chinese.

What is wrong with this picture?"

-----------------------

The above is a statement, assuming that the conference does begin, then my Chinese delegate attends along with the Union, then discusses terms of the cease-fire, then all this refusing and such occurs. Once again, I didn't state my 6 demands IC'ly as my Chinese diplomat has yet to arrive in Tokyo to present these demands in the first place. Therefore, the US, Union, Japan, etc. has no IC idea what China wants Japan to do for peace or cease-fire yet.

Therefore, the US, Union, Japan, etc. has no IC idea what China wants Japan to do for peace or cease-fire yet.

ooc
You are familar with US and British codebreaking efforts during the 20th Century. I am very certain that Chinese codes would have been of critical interest, second only to Union codes and right above Japanese codes in US priorities. You would not now this of course, but the Japanese would be informed by the US of Chinese intentions. Japan also has an excellent human intelligence spy network, and would be able to confirm this as well.

In short, the Japanese have no interest in talking to the Chinese except to sign an immediate cease fire, and possibly peace of status quo antebellum. They will keep fighting rather than admit defeat, as they frankly haven't been defeated. They merely withdrew to avoid a defeat.

OOC:

Point taken about the code breaking, spies, and intelligence. Consider the plans revealed to Japan, then.

Basically what I'm going for with the demands...

China wants Japan to pay reparations to China for the destroyed factories, atrocities, the devastation in Shanghai, Canton, Hong Kong, etc. Basically pay China the production points needed to rebuild all of the destroyed factories, railroads, etc. that Japan inflicted (not the damage from the rebels though) France has expressed agreement to this, as evidenced by this post...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10072036&postcount=261

Demand 2 is self-explanatory.

The reason why I wrote up Demand 3 was because Japan has to answer for the atrocity it committed with chemical weapons aganist Chinese military and civilians, as well as French troops supporting China. How would Japan like it if it was the victim of chemical attacks? Japan would make a similiar demand aganist China if China used chemical weapons aganist Japan and then China loses the war.

I'm fully willing to drop demands 4, 5, and 6. The only issues I want to resolve is #1, 2, and 3. Then thats it, no more than that.

Meanwhile in March and April, French troops advance to Chungking, which immediately sides with the Nationalist government and then the French reach Chengtu, and also brings it over to the Nationalist side. Soon after that the French are near Lanchow, and it too joins the Nationalists.

Thus the warlords in central China return to the fold.

Meanwhile the Nationalist government determines that the ports of Canton, Hong Kong, Foochow, Tsingtai and Shanghai have been heavily mined by the Japanese, and it will take weeks to clear them all. That is once some minesweeping ships can be found. (ooc essentially those ports will be close until someone sends minesweepers to deal with them, and then it will take 2 months to open those ports after that). The remnants of the Chinese navy, a few dozen patrol and torpedo craft holed up in Tientsin, lacks the capability to assist in that effort.

(ooc, unless a light ship is build, consisting of 20 tech level 5 destroyers.. minesweepers would be considered part of that build).

OOC:

Point taken about the code breaking, spies, and intelligence. Consider the plans revealed to Japan, then.

Basically what I'm going for with the demands...

China wants Japan to pay reparations to China for the destroyed factories, atrocities, the devastation in Shanghai, Canton, Hong Kong, etc. Basically pay China the production points needed to rebuild all of the destroyed factories, railroads, etc. that Japan inflicted (not the damage from the rebels though) France has expressed agreement to this, as evidenced by this post...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10072036&postcount=261

Demand 2 is self-explanatory.

The reason why I wrote up Demand 3 was because Japan has to answer for the atrocity it committed with chemical weapons aganist Chinese military and civilians, as well as French troops supporting China. How would Japan like it if it was the victim of chemical attacks? Japan would make a similiar demand aganist China if China used chemical weapons aganist Japan and then China loses the war.

I'm fully willing to drop demands 4, 5, and 6. The only issues I want to resolve is #1, 2, and 3. Then thats it, no more than that.

ooc
no matter what, unless beaten, the Japanese will not agree to either demand 1 or 3, and will not pull out of Hainan either. IC wise, Japan would feel very confident in their position. They are certainly aware that the Union, China and French combined still don't have a navy big enough to defeat the Japanese Navy, so they feel pretty secure at this point.

OOC: If Australia doesnt know what is going on b/c intel wasnt passed along by allies, then ignore the following.

"It is not China who is a threat to its neighbors. China was simply content to liberate Burma from British imperial rule.....The only territory we attacked was Burma. We never attacked Malaysia nor Singapore."

Excerpt from Speech by Prime Minister Somers on the China issue:
"I am a little bit curious, if China is not a threat to its neighbors why the Australian navy was ANNIHILATED a few years ago at Kuantan (in malaysia) by a Chinese squadron. I am also curious why China takes it upon itself to "liberate" territories in the first place. Liberation is in the eye of the beholder and had the Chinese army not been wiped out in its illfated attempts at conquest, I have no doubt they would have proceeded in attempts to "liberate" the entire subcontinent. Though it is the opinion of this administration that China has been punished enough for its previous crimes, for that nation to attempt to maintain a sense of innocence is appalling."

OOC: If Australia doesnt know what is going on b/c intel wasnt passed along by allies, then ignore the following.

ooc
you wouldn't know yet, but eventually it will come out and its a good speech

OOC: Do I have full control over Laos and Cambodia or do I have to ask for responces from their governments from the mods?

Just dropping in for a minute to note that, as long as Japan doesn't use any more chemical weapons, the Union will continue to unilaterally honor the ceasefire and will, if the Japanese accept it, consider the Non-Aggression Pact to be back in force.

OOC: Do I have full control over Laos and Cambodia or do I have to ask for responces from their governments from the mods?

Mods for now, diplomacy could create an Indochinese Federation (or whatever you call it) in which case you will get them.

Just dropping in for a minute to note that, as long as Japan doesn't use any more chemical weapons, the Union will continue to unilaterally honor the ceasefire and will, if the Japanese accept it, consider the Non-Aggression Pact to be back in force.

Japan honors the cease fire and ends the blockade of China and Manchuria. However, it doesn't offer to sweep any of the mines in the Nationalist Chinese ports. (see above)

Civilian death toll 1.5 million (mostly caught in the fighting, but 200,000 lost to gas attacks. Essentially they were caught in the fighting too.)

Chinese military death toll -- 1 million (includes civil clashes, losses in combat, losses to disease, and losses at sea)

Japanese death toll - 200,000

French death toll 100,000

(death tolls include missing who were not captured or deserted).

Chinese economy pre war 1934
78 factories, 30 shipping units, 2 airlines (1 national, 1 international)

Chinese economy May 1935
Peking 3 factories, Lanchow 3 factories, Tientsin 3 factories, Kunming 2 factories,
Sian 1 factory, Chengtu 2 factories, Chungking 2 factories, Changsha 2 factories, Kweiyang 2 factories
20 factories available plus 12 shipping units (all in Union, British or French ports at the moment) plus 2 airlines (if released from military service)

Total available annual production points at wartime production: 120 plus 14 commerce (once the ports are cleared of mines) (20 points turn for now)

Damaged factories:
Shanghai 5 factories, Canton 5 factories, Hong Kong 5 factories, Nanking 5 factories, Tsingtao 5 factories, Chengchow 5 factories, (each factory will require 6 points to repair for a total of 180 total points needed for repairs).

Once Nationalist China repairs itself (or gets aid to do so) it will return to its full capacity of 50 factories, or 100 points a year peacetime production plus whatever commerce is available.

In addition, China suffered massive damage to its rail infrastructure, but the Union has promised to fix that.

China will not reach tech level 6 until all factories are repaired plus 2 years.

Lost (to secession)
Manchuria
Mukden (Shenyang) 5 factories, Port Arthur 5 factories, Harbin 5 factories, Changchun 5 factories. As fighting is over, along with the more serious civil strife, all of these factories are capable of full operation once again. They are at wartime levels of production and can produce 20 points a turn or 120 a year, plus Manchuria has 4 shipping units (when the war ends can produce more points a year). Manchuria reaches tech level 6 in 1936.

Mongolia
Ulan Bator 3 factories (restored to production). 18 points a year or 3 a turn at wartime production. Tech level 5 (barely reached it)

Turmani Uighar Republic
Urumchi 2 factories, Kashgar 2 factories (restored to full production). 24 points a year or 4 per turn at war production. Tech level 4 (tech level 5 in 1936)

Laos and Cambodia have 1 factory each. Both are back in service (6 points a year at war production, but both have chosen to stay at national effort level, for 4 point a year each for the years 1935 and 1936). Both are tech level 4 but reach tech level 5 when Vietnam does.

Tibet had no factories but generates 1 point a turn in wartime, 4 at national effort, and 2 in peacetime but generally maintains reduced spending at 1 point a year. Tibet is tech level 4 (barely)

OOC: Thanks for clearing that up.

IC:

Communique to The governments of Laos and Cambodia

The peopel of Viet Nam have always looked neighbourly upon our comrades to the west and in this time of upheavel we have acted as good neighbours should and have shielded our comrades from harm.
Seeing this we have wondered if a closer political and economic union of our states under one banner would provide more advantages all round.
We propose to construct the United South East Asian States, it would consist of all our nations ruled by a represntative federal government. Each state would be alowed limited Autonomy in local governent but national government and foreign policy would be controlled by the federal govenment.

We wish to know your reactions to this proposal.

Sincerely,
Nyugyen Ai Quoc

The press in France essentially treats this all as a victory for two main reasons:

1) The French took less casualties then the Japanese and the Japanese only beat back the French because of their horrid chemical weapons.

2) France's objective (driving the Japanese off of the Chinese mainland) has been accomplished with (relatively) few casualties. Searches continue for missing pilots and soldiers in the Chinese countryside, with rewards offered for information leading to the recovery of them or their bodies. A larger reward is offered for live soldiers rather then dead ones.

There is much patting of backs amongst the military and the government. Medals are awarded to several sldiers for brave action under fire (especially survivors of the Japanese gas attacks). The majority of French forces are prepared for rotation home and demobilization.

France proposes a treaty of peace with the Japanese, essentially putting everything back at the status quo, with an agreement that neither of them will ever use chemical weapons against the other should they meet on the field of battle again. In addition, both will repay the other for lost shipping. The treaty also stipulates that the French will defend Chinese soverignty should the need arise (Esentially giving us Cassus Belli).


The French economy begins to return to peace and France pledges to send minesweepers to help clear the harbors and aid once everything is back to normal.

One light ship unit departs France for China.

France proposes a treaty of peace with the Japanese, essentially putting everything back at the status quo, with an agreement that neither of them will ever use chemical weapons against the other should they meet on the field of battle again. In addition, both will repay the other for lost shipping. The treaty also stipulates that the French will defend Chinese soverignty should the need arise (Esentially giving us Cassus Belli).


The French economy begins to return to peace and France pledges to send minesweepers to help clear the harbors and aid once everything is back to normal.

One light ship unit departs France for China.

ooc
if nothing from Fluffywuffy tomorrow, then Japan will make a proposal. It will take 2 turns (actually 3 months) for your minesweeper and destroyer flotilla to reach Tientsin, and then another turn to sweep (so arrives in late May, finishes in early August)

OOC: Thanks for clearing that up.

IC:

Communique to The governments of Laos and Cambodia

The peopel of Viet Nam have always looked neighbourly upon our comrades to the west and in this time of upheavel we have acted as good neighbours should and have shielded our comrades from harm.
Seeing this we have wondered if a closer political and economic union of our states under one banner would provide more advantages all round.
We propose to construct the United South East Asian States, it would consist of all our nations ruled by a represntative federal government. Each state would be alowed limited Autonomy in local governent but national government and foreign policy would be controlled by the federal govenment.

We wish to know your reactions to this proposal.

Sincerely,
Nyugyen Ai Quoc

ooc
post this in your thread as well, which is were it will be handled

OOC:

How long will it take for me to repair all my factories after I pay 10 points for social services, then whatever points for military maintainence (Could you write that up for me?)... then dump all my remaining points into factory restoration?

OOC: *grumble, grumble*

Oh well, no war for me :(

I guess Blitzkreig will have to wait a few more years...

Parthini']OOC: *grumble, grumble*

Oh well, no war for me :(

I guess Blitzkreig will have to wait a few more years...

ooc
and I thought the campaigns in France and Spain during the last war were a blitzkreig (chuckle)

OOC:

Are there any more rebels or warlords that I need to take care of? Or did I unify all the rebels (not counting the 4 secessionist states of Mongolia, Machuria, Turkenmistan, and Tibet)?

Also, I'd like to know what military units I have currently, and the total maintainence costs for them. That way I'll know what I can do in terms of build points to repair all my factories, provide social services, and so forth.

OOC:

Are there any more rebels or warlords that I need to take care of? Or did I unify all the rebels (not counting the 4 secessionist states of Mongolia, Machuria, Turkenmistan, and Tibet)?

No, they are all gone, although the Japanese hold Hainan (which went warlord and defected to them).

OOC:
Also, I'd like to know what military units I have currently, and the total maintainence costs for them. That way I'll know what I can do in terms of build points to repair all my factories, provide social services, and so forth.

I will post the various factions and their militaries tomorrow

France and the Union have signed a cease fire with Japan, and Japanese forces have left the mainland of China, and Union forces have pulled back across the border into Manchuria.

French minesweepers are clearing all of the mines the Japanese left behind (which will keep them busy until August), and French forces remain in China at this point.

The Japanese still hold Hainan island, and the breakaway parts of China have declared independence and their standing is increasingly recognized as new nations by the world community, particularly the Union and the United States.

China and Japan have a de facto cease fire, but no formal agreement is in place between them. The last of the warlords are now gone.

Chinese forces as of July 1935
13 garrison units (2 each Peking, Tientsin, Keiyan, Sian, Changsa, 1 each Chungking, Lanchow, Chengtu), 11 infantry corps, 3 fighter units (P26), 1 bomber unit (A12), 4 pilot units, plus international airline, national airline, 12 shipping units, 1 tech level 5 light ship (40 torpedo boats)

Peking 3 factories, Lanchow 3 factories, Tientsin 3 factories, Kunming 2 factories,
Sian 1 factory, Chengtu 2 factories, Chungking 2 factories, Changsha 2 factories, Kweiyang 2 factories
20 factories available plus 12 shipping units (all in Union, British or French ports at the moment) plus 2 airlines (if released from military service)

Until May, the Chinese only had production from Tienstin, Kunming, Kweyang and Peking, and had no commerce points. Giving them 9 points turn. China ordered 10 points spent for social services, plus had maintenance of 4.25 as all forces are tech level 5. As the Chinese have 54 points a year at this point, they spend 14, giving them 40 points for the remainder of the year, or 6 points a turn, plus an extra 4 points for January.

So in January the Chinese have 10 points available, and then 6 points each turn in March and May turns.

Beginning in July, the Chinese get additional points as commerce becomes available again (prorated however) providing an extra 2 points a turn, and additional production comes back on line, providing another 11 points a turn.

So in July the Chinese have 19 points a turn to spend each turn for the remainder of the year.

Remember, the Union is paying the social services needed for 300 million Chinese, which WILL DEFINITELY HAVE POLITICAL RAMIFICATIONS IF IT CONTINUES.

ooc
I need builds right away for China for 1935.

OOC: I don't no now that the war is wrapping up if I have any control over China anymore but I would like to suggest to Sharina that you make a deal with the union, you spend your 19 points on Social care and ask the Union to spend 19 of the points he was spending on Social on rebuilding factories. You need to find a way to get somebody to help you reconstruct, and you need more than 19 points to do that.

Okay, I need to know two things.

First, I need to know how many factories or points I need to rebuild the factories.

Second, I need to know whether I should remain on war economy for one or two more years so that I can do a few things.

1. Start paying full social services for 400 million Chinese (or 40 points a year) starting in 1936 to prevent China from becoming a puppet state, and secondly, to finish rebuilding ALL my factories.

2. After I get all my factories rebuilt, then I need to know whether to go to National Effort (for only 5 years this time, BUT with social serivces) to return China to 180 - 200 peacetime points so that I can sustain Level III Scoail Safety net without relying on foreign nations for it thus preventing China from becoming a puppet of foreign nations.

3. If National Effort isn't desirable to rebuild war-torn China, as well as rebuilding all the ruined factories, then what do you suggest then? I recall Government Cuts cuts the prices of social safety nets by 1/2 or 1/4 as was discussed a few weeks ago. Or am I thinking of Normal Economy?


I need to hear advice before I post final builds.

OOC
I am handling the Japanese for this year as military and economic mod. As far as Japan is concerned, it is still at war although a cease fire is place (de jure with the Union and France, de facto with Nationalist China)

IC
Japanese Navy Forces
Southern Fleet (Formosa)
heavy cruisers Nachi, Myoko, light cruiser Jintsu, Sendai, Kiso, 40 tech level 5 destroyers, 20 submarines

Home Fleet (Tokyo Bay)
Battleships Yamato, Mushashi, Nagato, Mikasa, Fuso, Yamashiro, Hyugan, Kirishima, Hiei, heavy cruisers Kinguasa, Haguro, Ashigara, Kitsugari, Aoba, light cruiser Naka, Kimu, Naara, 40 tech level 5 destroyers, 10 tech level 6 destroyers, 1 4-engined naval air unit (Mavis flying boats) Carriers Kongo, Hiei with 1 carrier fighter (A6M), 1 carrier dive bomber (Val), 2 carrier pilots 20 submarines, 1 invasion fleet, 4 transport fleets

Striking Force: Carriers Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku, heavy cruisers Furutaka, Kako, light cruiser Yubari, 20 tech 5 destroyers plus 2 carrier fighters (A6M), 2 carrier torpedo bombers (Kate), 2 carrier dive bombers (Val)

Navy Landbased air 1 Navy fighter unit (A6M), 1 Naval air unit (Nell), 1 Navy bomber unit (B17A), 3 pilots. Plus 1 carrier fighter unit (A6M), 1 carrier torpedo bomber (Kate) in reserve

Japanese Army Forces
1 HQ, 4 mechanized corps, 2 mountian corps, 9 infantry corps, 3 motorized infantry corps, 1 artillery field artillery unit, 1 garrison unit (Formosa) 1 fighter unit (Oscar), 1 bomber unit (Peggy), 2 pilots

Japan has the following Production:
Japan 111 (includes points from US, NEI, Formosa, Hainan) of which 19 are from US, NEI and Formasa, 26 are from commerce (26 shipping units), leaving 22 points as base production. As Japan is at war, this is now 66 points plus what it gets from commerce and from overseas. Mexico provides another 3 points a turn. Japan has 50 million people, and must spend a minimum of level 1 for social services (which includes education).

Social services (level 2) for 62 million people = 12 points, Military Maintenance 39 points.

Under construction (Paid for)
1 Army pilot, 2 Navy pilots, 2 Navy carrier pilots,
Builds for 1935 (59 points available)
Plans for 5 fleet carriers are cancelled, but
60 tech level 5 destroyers are modernized from tech level 5 to tech level 6 for 6 points,
plus 50 (5 units) tech level 6 submarines are constructed for 20 points,
2 2-engined Naval Air units are built (Nell type) for 6 points,
plus 1 factory is built for Formosa for 12 points,
2 Army heavy bomber units (B17C) for 8 points, (purchased from US)
1 Army armored corps for 6 points, (US equipment)
2 mechanized corps upgraded to armored corps for 2 points (US equipment)

with the 90 points from the Union,
1 amphibious fleet 6 points available May 1936
2 Navy 2 – engine land based bombers (Nell) 12 points available May 1936
4 Navy pilots 8 points available May 1936
2 Navy land based fighter units (A6M) 4 points available January 1936
5 anti aircraft light cruisers 30 points available May 1937
8 anti aircraft units 16 points available January 1936
2 headquarters units 12 points available May 1936

Okay, I need to know two things.

First, I need to know how many factories or points I need to rebuild the factories. .

You need 180 points to repair your destroyed factories... 6 points to fix each of the 30 damaged factories (takes 3 turns to fix a factory)

The damage you took is here
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10091007&postcount=360

Your other questions are player questions, and as a referee I am not going to make recommendations at this time. Its part of the challenge of the game in my view to navigate through the tumultous waters of the 20th Century.

However, factories take 3 turns (6 months to repair). It seems to me that as you repair factories your overall base will increase, allowing you to repair more factories more quickly. So if you spent 18 points in July to fix 3 factories, they become available in January increasing your overall production for the next year. By the end of 1935, with 3 turns (July, September and November) you could pay for the repairs for 9 factories, and as they become available (in January, March and May) they increase your production in 1936.

Paying for repairs for 3 factories a turn in 1935 and 1936 should allow you to repair 27 factories, leaving only 3 more to be fixed in 1937 and still allowing for some other spending.

Just an example.

I need to hear advice before I post final builds.

Since I'm neither mod nor player, I'll give you some advice. Whether or not it's good advice remains to be seen (think of me as one of many advisors to the new government.)

The Chinese people have just overthrown a government chiefly because of National Efforts. I wouldn't put it past them to do it again (perhaps with a little help from the Union.) So any prolonged National Effort would almost certainly be a bad thing.

Having foreigners give massive aid to China can only be a good thing, for now. The China that remains is basically Han China, so I doubt that your people will start defecting to the Union anytime soon. Instead, I would focus on rebuilding military and repairing factories. Also, ask for international help to repair China's industry. You may just get some (the USA might want to counter Union influence in China, as they're basically rival superpowers, and I can't imagine the US government being too happy about a Union-puppet China.)

Overall, I would do the following:
First year: Build up military, with a focus on a strong army.
Second year: Continue military build up, start repairing factories.
Third year: declare a National Effort for two years only. Rebuild factories, but be as strong as you can militarily.
Fourth year: Start paying social services yourself.

I understand completely about the player being challenged in E20.

I will take your advice under consideration, but for now I only want / need to know whether I should stay on War Economy so that I can finish these factories as early as possible, or if I should go to National Effort or Normal Economy (The National Effort was what got me into this whole mess in the first place).

However, I guess the best I can do at this point is aim for 100% factory restoration by 1937 as you suggested while maintaining 40 point social services (pay for 400 million Chinese so to avoid China becoming reliant on the Union or become a puppet state of the Pact).

ooc
and I thought the campaigns in France and Spain during the last war were a blitzkreig (chuckle)

/sarcastic laugh

China, IMO, I think what the people would want is just a little peace and quiet. I sure as hell would after 5 years of hard labor only to have my country torn apart.

Social services as high as possible and regular spending would be the way to go. Ask both the US and Union for help, get that competition working for ya. You might even ask the League. Play the competitors against each other to benefit yourself. Don't worry about rebuilding factories yourself. All of your points should be towards Social services and then military.

And I wouldn't do a National Effort for at least another 5 years. Perhaps even a decade.

Parthini']/sarcastic laugh

China, IMO, I think what the people would want is just a little peace and quiet. I sure as hell would after 5 years of hard labor only to have my country torn apart.

Social services as high as possible and regular spending would be the way to go. Ask both the US and Union for help, get that competition working for ya. You might even ask the League. Play the competitors against each other to benefit yourself. Don't worry about rebuilding factories yourself. All of your points should be towards Social services and then military.

And I wouldn't do a National Effort for at least another 5 years. Perhaps even a decade.

Thanks for your suggestions. They are very well appreciated. :)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20Japan.gif http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20CCP.gif http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20SovietUnionmd.gif

Former President Karl Radek and current Premier Theodor Liebknecht have successfully concluded a trilateral peace agreement on behalf of the Union with Prime Minister Hayashi Senjuro of the Empire of Japan and Premier Kang Sheng of the People’s Republic of Manchuria, restoring the Non-Aggression Pact between the two powers. Specific provisions include an agreement by the Japanese Army to foreswear the use of chemical weapons and the consequent agreement by Warsaw not to allow belligerent forces the use of or access to Union or Manchurian territories or resources to the detriment of Japan. Although the Warsaw Pact takes legal precedence to the Trilateral Accord, the former only takes effect if a Pact signatory is attacked. Furthermore, the Empire of Japan has agreed to cede Sakhalin and the Kuril islands to the Union (Republic of Russia) in exchange for [OoC: a long long list of goods, services, and cash, effectively totalling 90 production points].

The actual upshot of all this, now, is that Japan gets 90 production points and a free hand in China as long as they don’t attack Warsaw Pact signatories (such as Manchuria and Mongolia) or use chemical weapons. No European state will be allowed to transfer forces through Union territory for the purposes of waging war upon Japan, nor will any such state receive Union support of any kind. In exchange, the Union gets Sakhalin and the Kurils – full control of its own Pacific coast for the first time in history. Of course, we also lose a chunk of credibility as a Revolutionary power (not necessarily a bad thing, in the long run), and blow a lot of our political capital among certain Europeans, but Warsaw considers the trade-off worthwhile in the long-term.

ooc: So the war in China is back on, assuming that the Japanese re-invade?

OOC
I am handling the Japanese for this year as military and economic mod. As far as Japan is concerned, it is still at war although a cease fire is place (de jure with the Union and France, de facto with Nationalist China)

IC
Japanese Navy Forces
Southern Fleet (Formosa)
heavy cruisers Nachi, Myoko, light cruiser Jintsu, Sendai, Kiso, 40 tech level 5 destroyers, 20 submarines

Home Fleet (Tokyo Bay)
Battleships Yamato, Mushashi, Nagato, Mikasa, Fuso, Yamashiro, Hyugan, Kirishima, Hiei, heavy cruisers Kinguasa, Haguro, Ashigara, Kitsugari, Aoba, light cruiser Naka, Kimu, Naara, 40 tech level 5 destroyers, 10 tech level 6 destroyers, 1 4-engined naval air unit (Mavis flying boats) Carriers Kongo, Hiei with 1 carrier fighter (A6M), 1 carrier dive bomber (Val), 2 carrier pilots 20 submarines, 1 invasion fleet, 4 transport fleets, 1 Marine corps

Striking Force: Carriers Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku, heavy cruisers Furutaka, Kako, light cruiser Yubari, 20 tech 5 destroyers plus 2 carrier fighters (A6M), 2 carrier torpedo bombers (Kate), 2 carrier dive bombers (Val)

Navy Landbased air 1 Navy fighter unit (A6M), 1 Naval air unit (Nell), 1 Navy bomber unit (B17A), 3 pilots. Plus 1 carrier fighter unit (A6M), 1 carrier torpedo bomber (Kate) in reserve

Japanese Army Forces
1 HQ, 4 mechanized corps, 2 mountian corps, 9 infantry corps, 3 motorized infantry corps, 1 artillery field artillery unit, 1 garrison unit (Formosa) 1 fighter unit (Oscar), 1 bomber unit (Peggy), 2 pilots

Japan has the following Production:
Japan 111 (includes points from US, NEI, Formosa, Hainan) of which 19 are from US, NEI and Formasa, 26 are from commerce (26 shipping units), leaving 22 points as base production. As Japan is at war, this is now 66 points plus what it gets from commerce and from overseas. Mexico provides another 3 points a turn. Japan has 50 million people, and must spend a minimum of level 1 for social services (which includes education).

Social services (level 2) for 62 million people = 12 points, Military Maintenance 39 points.

Under construction (Paid for)
1 Army pilot, 2 Navy pilots, 2 Navy carrier pilots,
Builds for 1935 (59 points available)
Plans for 5 fleet carriers are cancelled, but
60 tech level 5 destroyers are modernized from tech level 5 to tech level 6 for 6 points,
plus 50 (5 units) tech level 6 submarines are constructed for 20 points,
2 2-engined Naval Air units are built (Nell type) for 6 points,
plus 1 factory is built for Formosa for 12 points,
2 Army heavy bomber units (B17C) for 8 points, (purchased from US)
1 Army armored corps for 6 points, (US equipment)
2 mechanized corps upgraded to armored corps for 2 points (US equipment)

with the 90 points from the Union,
1 amphibious fleet 6 points available May 1936
2 Navy 2 – engine land based bombers (Nell) 12 points available May 1936
4 Navy pilots 8 points available May 1936
2 Navy land based fighter units (A6M) 4 points available January 1936
5 anti aircraft light cruisers 30 points available May 1937
8 anti aircraft units 16 points available January 1936
2 headquarters units 12 points available May 1936

all through 1935 Japan arms on a massive scale

ooc: So the war in China is back on, assuming that the Japanese re-invade?
That remains to be seen. The point being, that if it does resume, the Union will not be intervening except under very specific circumstances, nor will the Union be gratuitously facilitating any intervention by others.

The French government is stunned by the recent announcement and begins attempting to negotiate peace-terms between themselves and the Japanese. Their only railine to China is effectively cut, should the war resume, and French ships cannot hope to break the blockade. They tell the CHinese government (privately) that they are on their own and begin rotating troops homw.

The government hastily begins negotiations with Japan. They ask for a return to the status quo betwen themseleves and Japan and that both agree not to use chemical weapons against each other. France will withdraw troops from China. They seek a similar agreement between Japan and China.

In France, a large portion the citizenry is angered at the Union's decision and several violent protests are put down by the Paris police after they threaten the Union embassy. The French governement sends a note of friendship to the Union, although the tone is that of one hurt.

Rumania, outraged by this action, sends a note of formal protest to the Union government, stating their dissapproval, but doing little else. Aid to France is (unfortuantely) cut off, and Rumania asks the Japanese for peace.

Large Anti-Japanese protests are held in Bucharest, and Conservatives in parliament begin calling for a withdrawal from the Warsaw Pact, but are for the most part ignored

OOC: I assume that peace between Rumania and Japan won't be too hard, considering they never actually fought each other.

Notably cheerful and gracious Japanese special envoys negotiate peace with Rumania and France. Essentially Japan wants nothing but a pull out of European forces from China and the Far East.

The Japanese agree to sign the proposed Geneva accord regarding chemical weapons. (ooc the Japanese have already pulled out of China). Japan also provides France, as is required under the Hague Treaty, maps as to the location of their sea mines, speeding up the minesweeping effort.

Japan also recognizes Tibet, the Turkmani-Uighar Republic, the new United States of Indochina, and has already recognized Manchuria.

French forces begin pulling out of China, leaving behind some artillery and older tanks for the Chinese to use. All French forces are expected to be out of China by the spring of '36.

The French governement sends a note of friendship to the Union, although the tone is that of one hurt.
A sympathetic but vague note is returned to the French Republic.

Rumania, outraged by this action, sends a note of formal protest to the Union government, stating their dissapproval, but doing little else.

Bucharest is informed that Warsaw is not of the opinion that events in East Asia are strictly a matter of Romanian concern, considering as Romania has no borders in the area, nor history, nor significant commercial presence. Bucharest is, of course, free to withdraw from the Warsaw Pact.

French forces begin pulling out of China, leaving behind some artillery and older tanks for the Chinese to use. All French forces are expected to be out of China by the spring of '36. The French are also going to sign the Geneva accord. The Japanese are thanked for their courtesy and the minesweepers, once their job is complete, return to France.

The French demobilize most of the military, disbanding twoe mechanized corps and putting two onto reserve status, leaving one active. In addition, two fighter untis and both bomber untis are put into reserve, along with one of the naval bomber units. Both rocket artillery units are disbanded, as is the artillery unit recently built and the new anti-tank unit.

Active Military
1xMech Corps
1xAlpine Corps
2xCoastal Artillery
1xFlak Artillery

2xLight Ship Units
2xSub Units
5xLight Cruisers
2xEscort Carriers

1xFighter Unit
1xNaval Bomber Unit
1xCarrier Fighter Unit
1xCarrier Bomber Unit

2xPilots
2xCarrier Pilots

Reserve Military
2xMech Corps
1xFlak Artillery
1xMechanized Anti-Tank Unit
2xFighter Units
2xBomber Units
1xNaval Bomber Unit
1xHQ
1xMarine Corps

4xPilots

Bucharest is informed that Warsaw is not of the opinion that events in East Asia are strictly a matter of Romanian concern, considering as Romania has no borders in the area, nor history, nor significant commercial presence. Bucharest is, of course, free to withdraw from the Warsaw Pact.

Bucharest remains silent on that matter, but does send a note reaffirming their commitment to the Warsaw Pact and to the Union. They assure Warsaw that only a small, but exteremly vocal minority insists on withdrawal from the Pact.

Bucharest remains silent on that matter, but does send a note reaffirming their commitment to the Warsaw Pact and to the Union. They assure Warsaw that only a small, but exteremly vocal minority insists on withdrawal from the Pact.
A more conciliatory message is sent after this one, signed by Minister Kollontai herself, expressing serious regret for the recent differences of opinion between Bucharest and Warsaw, and noting that, while such differences are inevitable between free peoples, the real test of friendship and trust is in the commitment and ability to transcend them.

OOC:

China has signed a cease-fire with Japan (I really don't have the time to RP it all out as I'm very busy in RL this and next week).

China will try to focus on massive military buildup to deter a possible second invasion by Japan. I wish China to build as many Mechanized Infantry, and upgrade as many garrisons and infantry corps to Mechanized as well. If needed, I wish for buildup of fighters to counter any Japanese bomber threats.

Then afterwards, when I have a decent number of mechanized infantry and fighters, then I'll do the factory rebuilding. Why bother rebuilding factoris if Japan is gonna re-invade and wreck them all over again?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20Nationalists.gif

Song Jiaoren and Hu Shi, the most moderate leaders of the You and Zuo factions, respectively, have collaborated over the Summer to produce a Republican Constitution, based loosely on that of the Third Republic of France. The two men, both very popular among Chinese, arrange to present the document very publicly to Generalissimo Jiang Jieshi, formally requesting that he endorse it and call for national elections on the basis of universal suffrage in December now that the Japanese armies are gone.

oc
is it me, or does that flag look a lot like a rug?

IC
Sino-Japanese Cease Fire terms (from Japanese end)
Agreement to stop shooting and Japanese forces withdraw from the mainland of China. China recognizes Japanese annexation of Hainan island and all POWs are released. No reparations from Japan, and no territorial concessions from Japan.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20Nationalists.gif

Song Jiaoren and Hu Shi, the most moderate leaders of the You and Zuo factions, respectively, have collaborated over the Summer to produce a Republican Constitution, based loosely on that of the Third Republic of France. The two men, both very popular among Chinese, arrange to present the document very publicly to Generalissimo Jiang Jieshi, formally requesting that he endorse it and call for national elections on the basis of universal suffrage in December now that the Japanese armies are gone.

Chiang Kai Shek / Jiang Jieshi shall endorse this, and elections shall take place in either December or Janurary.

oc
is it me, or does that flag look a lot like a rug?

IC
Sino-Japanese Cease Fire terms (from Japanese end)
Agreement to stop shooting and Japanese forces withdraw from the mainland of China. China recognizes Japanese annexation of Hainan island and all POWs are released. No reparations from Japan, and no territorial concessions from Japan.

China accepts the cease fire terms.

OOC:

Assuming the ceasefire does go through, and the democratic elections do happen, then I would like to focus my economy onto providing level 1 social services for all my 400 million Chinese (40 points), then pay the 5 points military maintainence. After all is said and done, then I'd like to pour the rest into rebuilding my factories, as I want to appear non-threatening to Japan and not give Japan any reason to invade (towards this end, I'm not rebuilding my Navy).

Then once I get all my factories repaired by end of 1936 (if I get a little foreign aid then that 3 "extra" factories won't have to wait until 1937), then I'd like to convert to government cuts mode.

I need to know two things though.

1. Is the social services costs halved in government cuts mode? I remember a discussion about this a few weeks ago.

2. Do I have to remain on Wartime Economy for 1935 and 1936 for my factories to be all repaired by 1937? Or is that timetable based on Normal Economy mode?

OOC:
I need to know two things though.

1. Is the social services costs halved in government cuts mode? I remember a discussion about this a few weeks ago.

2. Do I have to remain on Wartime Economy for 1935 and 1936 for my factories to be all repaired by 1937? Or is that timetable based on Normal Economy mode?

No, social services costs are not halved during government cuts mode.

You will have to allocate your points to figure out how quickly you are repairing things.. I still need you to do that for 1935.

No, social services costs are not halved during government cuts mode.

You will have to allocate your points to figure out how quickly you are repairing things.. I still need you to do that for 1935.

OOC:

Then what was the project or whatever that was supposed to be halved in Government Cuts (besides production points)? I remember there being talk about halving something, and if its not social services then what was it?

As for the 1935 builds, all I can say is that I'll spend the rest of what I have on repairing my factories, after maintainence and social services.

oc
is it me, or does that flag look a lot like a rug?

And you wonder why nobody likes you.

And you wonder why nobody likes you.

(chuckles)

Chinese forces as of July 1935
13 garrison units (2 each Peking, Tientsin, Keiyan, Sian, Changsa, 1 each Chungking, Lanchow, Chengtu), 11 infantry corps, 3 fighter units (P26), 1 bomber unit (A12), 4 pilot units, plus international airline, national airline, 12 shipping units, 1 tech level 5 light ship (40 torpedo boats)

Peking 3 factories, Lanchow 3 factories, Tientsin 3 factories, Kunming 2 factories,
Sian 1 factory, Chengtu 2 factories, Chungking 2 factories, Changsha 2 factories, Kweiyang 2 factories
20 factories available plus 12 shipping units (all in Union, British or French ports at the moment) plus 2 airlines (if released from military service)

Until May, the Chinese only had production from Tienstin, Kunming, Kweyang and Peking, and had no commerce points. Giving them 9 points turn. China ordered 10 points spent for social services, plus had maintenance of 4.25 as all forces are tech level 5. As the Chinese have 54 points a year at this point, they spend 14, giving them 40 points for the remainder of the year, or 6 points a turn, plus an extra 4 points for January.

So in January the Chinese have 10 points available, and then 6 points each turn in March and May turns.

Beginning in July, the Chinese get additional points as commerce becomes available again (prorated however) providing an extra 2 points a turn, and additional production comes back on line, providing another 11 points a turn.

So in July the Chinese have 19 points a turn to spend each turn for the remainder of the year.

Remember, the Union is paying the social services needed for 300 million Chinese, which WILL DEFINITELY HAVE POLITICAL RAMIFICATIONS IF IT CONTINUES.

ooc
I need builds right away for China for 1935.

Damaged factories:
Shanghai 5 factories, Canton 5 factories, Hong Kong 5 factories, Nanking 5 factories, Tsingtao 5 factories, Chengchow 5 factories, (each factory will require 6 points to repair for a total of 180 total points needed for repairs).

July / August -- 19 points available, 10points spent on factory repairs for all 5 factories in Chengchow, 6 points spent on 3 tech level 6 flak units (from France) (arrive in November), 2 points spent on a fighter unit (French built). 1 point spent to convert 1 infantry corps to tech level 6.
September / October - same as above
November / December - same as above, except no fighters, all 3 extra points spent to convert 3 more infantry corps.

In addition, when the French pull out, they transfer equipment to the Chinese, sufficient to convert 5 infantry corps to tech level 6.

Thus by the end of 1935 China will have a more modern army and has fixed part of the war damage.

This gives China Peking 3 factories, Lanchow 3 factories, Tientsin 3 factories, Kunming 2 factories, Sian 1 factory, Chengtu 2 factories, Chungking 2 factories, Changsha 2 factories, Kweiyang 2 factories, Chengchow 5 factories
20 factories available plus 12 shipping units plus 2 airlines

Technically, China is still at war, and can continue wartime production in 1936. This gives China 150 production points, plus 14 commerce points for a total of 164 points.

Chinese Armed Forces January 1936
tech level 6 forces
11 x 5 point infantry corps, 9 x 2 point flak units, 2 DW520 fighter units, 2 pilots, 1 international airline, 1 national airline, 2 pilots
tech level 5 forces
13 x 3 point garrison units, 1 P26 fighter unit, 1 A12 bomber unit, 2 pilots, 1 light ship (40 torpedo boats),
other forces
12 shipping units

Maintenance for this force is 9.25 points
Social services at level 1 for 400 million people is 40 points, 80 points for level 2, and 120 points for level 3.
China still has 25 factories (150 points) of repairs to make as well.
The Army wants some fortifications, more artillery, more fighters, more bombers etc

Damaged factories:
Shanghai 5 factories, Canton 5 factories, Hong Kong 5 factories, Nanking 5 factories, Tsingtao 5 factories, Chengchow 5 factories, (each factory will require 6 points to repair for a total of 180 total points needed for repairs).

July / August -- 19 points available, 10points spent on factory repairs for all 5 factories in Chengchow, 6 points spent on 3 tech level 6 flak units (from France) (arrive in November), 2 points spent on a fighter unit (French built). 1 point spent to convert 1 infantry corps to tech level 6.
September / October - same as above
November / December - same as above, except no fighters, all 3 extra points spent to convert 3 more infantry corps.

In addition, when the French pull out, they transfer equipment to the Chinese, sufficient to convert 5 infantry corps to tech level 6.

Thus by the end of 1935 China will have a more modern army and has fixed part of the war damage.

This gives China Peking 3 factories, Lanchow 3 factories, Tientsin 3 factories, Kunming 2 factories, Sian 1 factory, Chengtu 2 factories, Chungking 2 factories, Changsha 2 factories, Kweiyang 2 factories, Chengchow 5 factories
20 factories available plus 12 shipping units plus 2 airlines

Technically, China is still at war, and can continue wartime production in 1936. This gives China 150 production points, plus 14 commerce points for a total of 164 points.

Chinese Armed Forces January 1936
tech level 6 forces
11 x 5 point infantry corps, 9 x 2 point flak units, 2 DW520 fighter units, 2 pilots, 1 international airline, 1 national airline, 2 pilots
tech level 5 forces
13 x 3 point garrison units, 1 P26 fighter unit, 1 A12 bomber unit, 2 pilots, 1 light ship (40 torpedo boats),
other forces
12 shipping units

Maintenance for this force is 9.25 points
Social services at level 1 for 400 million people is 40 points, 80 points for level 2, and 120 points for level 3.
China still has 25 factories (150 points) of repairs to make as well.
The Army wants some fortifications, more artillery, more fighters, more bombers etc

Thanks.

If I may ask a couple questions?

First, what do you mean by "2 point flak" or "5 point infantry"? How do I make them better other than upgrading them to Tech Level 6- can I make them better through training excerises or something?

Second, how long can I sustain the war economy? Does it continue until a formal peace is signed with Japan, or what?

I'm having someone help me with builds so that I can get my act together and reforge a new China, the democratic one I've always wanted.

Thanks.

If I may ask a couple questions?

First, what do you mean by "2 point flak" or "5 point infantry"? How do I make them better other than upgrading them to Tech Level 6- can I make them better through training excerises or something?

Second, how long can I sustain the war economy? Does it continue until a formal peace is signed with Japan, or what?

I'm having someone help me with builds so that I can get my act together and reforge a new China, the democratic one I've always wanted.

War economy until an actual peace treaty exists, or you choose to reduce it (earliest for that is 1936). 2 point and 5 point is the combat value (estimated, as they are unknown at this point) of that unit. They are tech level 6, so you can't upgrade them further, and get that rating due to experience. So training isn't going to help this year, maybe in 1937 if you aren't invaded.

Japanese Military Forces July 1936

Imperial Japanese Navy
Land and land based forces (Home Islands and Formosa)
1 Marine corps (at Taihoku), 2 Navy landbased fighter units (A6M), 5 Navy landbased 2-engined naval air units (Nell), 1 Navy 4-engined naval air flying boat unit (Mavis), 1 Navy 4-engined bomber unit (B17A), 9 pilot units
deployment: 1 fighter, 2 Nells, 1 B17A at Tanian, 1 fighter, 3 Nells at Sapporo, 1 Mavis at Tokyo,

Combined Fleet (Home waters)
Main Body (based at Hiroshima)
Battleships Yamato, Mushashi, Nagato, Mikasa, Fuso, Yamashiro, Hyugan, heavy cruisers Kinguasa, Haguro, Ashigara, Kitsugari, Aoba, light cruiser Naka, Kimu, Naara, 50 modernized tech level 6 destroyers (5 light ship units), 10 tech level 6 destroyers (1 light ship unit)

Striking Force (based at Tokyo)
Carriers Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Hiei, Kongo battleships Kirishima, Haruna, heavy cruisers Nachi, Myoko, Furutaka, Kako, light cruiser Yubari, Jintsu, Sendai, Kiso 10 tech level 6 destroyers (1 light ship unit), 20 modernized tech 6 destroyers (2 light ship units) plus 4 carrier fighters (A6M), 3 carrier torpedo bombers (Kate), 2 carrier dive bombers (Val), 9 carrier pilots

Other forces (based at Nagayo)
50 (5 submarine units) tech level 6 fleet submarines (I class), 40 (2 submarine units) tech level 5 submarines (R class)
40 tech level 5 destroyers (2 light ship units), 8 transport fleet units, 2 amphibious fleet units,
20 shipping units

under construction
5 Antiaircraft cruisers (paid for, available July 1937)

Navy Shopping List: build 4 heavy cruisers, modernize rest of Destroyer fleet and modernize the R class submarines. A pair of battleships (Kii class http://www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/kii_f.htm ) would be nice, as well as 2 Tahio class carriers to replace the aging Hiei class would be nice as well.

Imperial Japanese Army
2 x 5 point mountain corps (resource hex Hokkaido), 1 x 5 point garrison unit, 1 x 3 point flak unit (Sapporo), 1 x 5 point infantry corps, 1 x 3 point flak unit (Taihoku), 1 HQ, 2 x 9 point infantry corps, 2 x 8 point infantry corps (Nagoya), 4 x 6 point infantry corps (Fukoku), 1 HQ unit, 2 x 12 point armored corps, 2 x 12 point mechanized corps, (Ominato), 1 HQ, 1 x 3 point field artillery unit, 3 x 7 point mechanized corps (Tokyo), 1 x 14 point armored corps (Nagasaki), 4 x 3 point flak units (Hiroshima), 2 x 3 point flak units (Kyoto),

Imperial Japanese Army Air Force
2 x B17C strategic bomber units, 1 x Peggy bomber unit, 1 x fighter unit (Oscar) at Haikoku,

Army shopping list: 2 fighter units (Oscar, 1 bomber unit (Diane), 3 pilots

The Japanese Army and Navy continue to remain mobilized and continue to exercise steadily.

Chiang Kai Shek / Jiang Jieshi shall endorse this, and elections shall take place in either December or Janurary.
When January passes without any elections even having been scheduled, let alone conducted, massive protests and strikes begin to cripple the Chinese recovery. Mao Zedong and Zhu De, from their new stronghold in Chongqing (Chunking), issue an ultimatum to Generalissimo Jiang, informing him that hostilities will recommence in March between the Nationalists and Communists if elections are not held by then and if the "dictator" Jiang does not step down.

Hu Shi, on the other hand, again joins with Song Jiaoren to deliver a petition to Generalissimo Jiang (demanding he step down in favor of an elected civilian government), who remains (apparently) incommunicado throughout January and February. Song and Hu end up camping out through the Winter in Tiananmen Square waiting for Jiang to appear. They are steadily joined by thousands of other protestors. Although the Nationalist Army maintains a heavy guard over the protestors, there is as yet no actual violence.


The situation remains tense.

Effectively, the strikes and protests in January and February will reduce the available production points for China by one-quarter. If the situation is not resolved, Chinese production points will reduce even further until Civil War recommences.


China accepts the cease fire terms.
Talks with the Japanese begin to take a downturn over the Winter as Tokyo starts to demand severe military restrictions on China, essentially allowing the Chinese no fortifications, coastal artillery, or a fleet beyond what amounts to 1 light ship unit. The Japanese then begin to open discussions for limiting the Chinese army and air force, although they do offer to rebuild damaged Chinese factories in exchange for ownership over the repaired industry until their investments are paid back.

ooc
this has been discussed by Vas and I in our capacity as referees... as we seem to have lost our most recent Japanese player, and the two substitutes that have been contacted seem to be unavailable, we are handling the situation at the moment.

Now, wait a second. Aren't you being a little harsh with Sharina?

The first post on the main thread says that you're required to post at least three times a week. Just because Sharina hasn't posted in one day is no reason to have massive strikes sweep the country.

However, if he hasn't posted by tomorrow, consider this post void. At that point, he will have reasonably violated the three times a week rule, so I will have no objections to any of it.

Now, wait a second. Aren't you being a little harsh with Sharina?

The first post on the main thread says that you're required to post at least three times a week. Just because Sharina hasn't posted in one day is no reason to have massive strikes sweep the country.

However, if he hasn't posted by tomorrow, consider this post void. At that point, he will have reasonably violated the three times a week rule, so I will have no objections to any of it.

ooc
its not aimed at Sharina for vacating his post, its part of the ongoing sea of change in China, which less than two years ago had a massive upheaval and revolution. It isn't going to disappear overnight, and will probably worsen. In addition, the situation is extremely fluid at the moment, and just because the Japanese pulled out, it doesn't mean the Socialists and Communists are going to go away.

In response to Chinese pleas for training and aid, France dispatches 2,400 "trainers" and advisors to help train the Chinese Army. Officers are asked to volounteer for this.

Snip.
This is a misinterpretation of the situation, as GB has noted. Sharina isn't being ejected for noninvolvement, he's suffering the realistic effects IC of his policies, and the lack thereof.

It's what the History Moderator is for, after all - to keep people within the plausible limits of reality. China entered the Twentieth Century with serious structural problems, which is why the RL Chinese ended up fighting forty years' worth of civil war and foreign invasions. In E20, Sharina has yet to successfully address any of the issues that led to that result.

If I were taking issue with him for noninvolvement, I'd be titling my posts "As Administrative Moderator," instead of "As History Moderator."

ooc
its not aimed at Sharina for vacating his post, its part of the ongoing sea of change in China, which less than two years ago had a massive upheaval and revolution. It isn't going to disappear overnight, and will probably worsen. In addition, the situation is extremely fluid at the moment, and just because the Japanese pulled out, it doesn't mean the Socialists and Communists are going to go away.

I'm not suggesting that it is Sharina-specific. However, having people riot because Sharina has not yet posted election results for elections that he said would happen yesterday strikes me as a bit harsh. If he said "elections are cancelled" then that would be another matter entirely. I also understand unrest as part of the continuing problems in China, and I want to see how the situation develops.

Of course, now I have to redo the China 1936 build. Sigh...

Snip.

If you want to have mobs riot because of lack of land reform or something, fine by me. I just want to make sure that Argentina doesn't suffer a coup because I didn't post for a day.

Nobody's rioting yet. I specifically said that.

I'm not sure I like your tone.

First of all, sorry if I seemed disrespectful. I think you've done a great job with this rp, and that's why I'm happy to be playing in it. I really don't dislike the idea of protests or even riots in China at all, because Sharina hasn't addressed the key issues. Also, I’m sorry about the rioting thing. I didn't go over your post as thoroughly as I should.

However, my original point remains unchanged. Basically, people protested because elections hadn't been held. Elections hadn't been held because Sharina didn't post anything about them. I requested a one-day stay on the protests to let Sharina either hold elections or explicitly not hold them. Request denied by mods, and that's really the end of the story.

That said, we should stop cluttering the thread. If you'd still like to contact me, send me a telegram.

I am going to start a new thread for China after christmas.. this one is getting a bit long and hard to manage

as to Chinese elections, a lot of time has passed since the Japanese pulled out, nearly 8 months of game time.

India and Turkey and Rumania are starting to have issues as well, but as they aren't starting with a civil war situation

OOC:

I clearly stated that the elections would be held in December or Janurary. I never said I cancelled the elections, and it's assumed that it did take place. The same goes for the cease fire with Japan. It's assumed that the cease fire has been signed, acknowledging the Japanese annexation of Hainan Dao in return for the cease fire.

Remember I stated a few times already OOC'ly that I've been very busy in RL with my web redesign project. I have to redesign no less than 9 individual websites- 8 school websites and 1 administrative website (the site is http://www.stoughtonschools.org ). Therefore my time to RP is greatly reduced for the time being, and the only time I can spend time to type up my usual top quality RP posts in on the weekends, assuming my new girlfriend isn't staying over for the whole afternoon on either Saturday or Sunday, when I have at least more than one hour to devote to sitting at my computer and typng out good quality RP.

Hence, the reason why my RP posts has been less than stellar the past couple of weeks, because I'm in a rush- all this war stuff happening exactly when I'm saddled with this enormous web design project. Therefore, it should stand to reason that when I say something will happen like these Chinese elections, they *WILL* happen automatically.

So consider elections being held in December - Janurary, with some delays due to the new election systems being implemented (hence the elections dragging into Janurary instead of finishing in December).

When January passes without any elections even having been scheduled, let alone conducted, massive protests and strikes begin to cripple the Chinese recovery. Mao Zedong and Zhu De, from their new stronghold in Chongqing (Chunking), issue an ultimatum to Generalissimo Jiang, informing him that hostilities will recommence in March between the Nationalists and Communists if elections are not held by then and if the "dictator" Jiang does not step down.

Hu Shi, on the other hand, again joins with Song Jiaoren to deliver a petition to Generalissimo Jiang (demanding he step down in favor of an elected civilian government), who remains (apparently) incommunicado throughout January and February. Song and Hu end up camping out through the Winter in Tiananmen Square waiting for Jiang to appear. They are steadily joined by thousands of other protestors. Although the Nationalist Army maintains a heavy guard over the protestors, there is as yet no actual violence.


The situation remains tense.

Effectively, the strikes and protests in January and February will reduce the available production points for China by one-quarter. If the situation is not resolved, Chinese production points will reduce even further until Civil War recommences.

This does not happen, as I stated the elections were going to occur in December / Janurary.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10101748&postcount=394

Besides, I did not have time to write up a nice long RP post or figure out each individual "party" in the elections due to the reasons I explained in the previous post. The elections *did* take place though.

It is not "assumed" that elections take place when you say something vague like "December or January" and then say nothing more. You could have even put a placeholder. Considering that you said that the Emperor initiated "democratic reforms" which we never saw affecting China at all, your previous actions haven't earned you the benefit of the doubt in this matter.

As for being busy, you've been offered help. You've refused it. Nor have you given anyone a schedule as to when you're likely to be more able to act and respond.

You need to take some responsibility for your own actions. And inactions.

In this instance, I'm willing to compromise and say that elections are delayed until April (i.e., midnight tonight). If you or a designated substitute hasn't posted anything by then, even a placeholder, the Communists will start up the civil war again. And yes, you should lose production for January and February, but if you hold elections the strikes will stop.

It is not "assumed" that elections take place when you say something vague like "December or January" and then say nothing more. You could have even put a placeholder. Considering that you said that the Emperor initiated "democratic reforms" which we never saw affecting China at all, your previous actions haven't earned you the benefit of the doubt in this matter.

As for being busy, you've been offered help. You've refused it. Nor have you given anyone a schedule as to when you're likely to be more able to act and respond.

You need to take some responsibility for your own actions. And inactions.

I must completely disagree with two of Vas's points stated.

First, I have never refused help. In fact, I made it clear I am perfectly willing to accept advice, suggestions, and help. After all, I kept asking all these questions during the 1920's about how to improve China like pingyim alphabet, dam building, electrification of cities, installing subways in cities, and so on. I also asked for help on how to create a democratic government while preserving the Emperor, and I was told to go ahead and do the government system I proposed.

Hence, its bullshit that I "refuse" or not accept help. Several people can attest to the fact that I did ask for help. Ask Middle Snu, Galveston Bay, Safehaven (Sweden), etc.

Second, I have stated for the record that I have a new job in RL and that I'm doing a major website project. I believe I told the E20 community about the website project last week. I also told the community that my project may take weeks or even a month or two to finish. It is generally accepted that NS does take a backseat to RL issues, obligations, and situations. Therefore I am not able to RP as much as I'd like. I'd love to write up dozens of high quality RP posts for China, introduce character RP's, and flesh out my China a lot. However, I cannot do that because of my RL stuff and time consuming job, unless I get a long vacation then sure, I can RP a lot and post lengthy and decent RP posts 10 times or more a day.

As I recall, Vas had a serious problem a couple months ago with losing his job, and then worrying about maybe not being able to have website access. Thus, he did suffer RL issues that affected his RP'ing of Russia / Union during that time. If the E20 community accepted Vas's reasons for his low level of action during that period, then why shouldn't they accept my reasons for my low level of RP quality or actions over the past couple of weeks (and possibly the next few weeks as well)?

As for my democratic reforms that Vas says E20 never saw, I posted repeatedly my government system outline, and then it got approved for realism. I was going for a blend of the UK and Singapore government systems (constitutional monarchy). Once I saw that my government was approved, it was assumed to go into effect in the same way most everything else is put into action with a minimum of input in E20- like building economy, trading things, war deployments, building dams, sharing technologies, etc. I don't see much RP (if at all) for building, say, factories or ships or trading with foreign nations with the merchant marine vessels. Most all RP so far has been focused on war, war war, (Great War 1 and 2, the Chinese War, the Venzeula Situation, and the Brazilian Civil War) or international diplomacy (League of Nations, Washington Naval Treaty, the Budapest Convention, forming alliances, etc.)

I'm off for a bit- I gotta go, as my morning break is pretty much over.

OOC:...assuming my new girlfriend isn't staying over for the whole afternoon on either Saturday or Sunday...

Oooh... stay away from women. They pwn your soul. Just find a friend with benefits. Much easier and less emotional hassle.

Oh, and you forget the first half of the 20th Century pretty much was just war war war.

It is not "assumed" that elections take place when you say something vague like "December or January" and then say nothing more. You could have even put a placeholder. Considering that you said that the Emperor initiated "democratic reforms" which we never saw affecting China at all, your previous actions haven't earned you the benefit of the doubt in this matter.

In this instance, I'm willing to compromise and say that elections are delayed until April (i.e., midnight tonight). If you or a designated substitute hasn't posted anything by then, even a placeholder, the Communists will start up the civil war again. And yes, you should lose production for January and February, but if you hold elections the strikes will stop.

I am afraid I have to agree. The tide of history is against China holding together throughout the 20th Century without revolutionary social change. The Nationalist government created itself by force of arms just as much as the Communist and Socialist rebels did during the civil strife a couple of years back (in game terms). Only the Japanese invasion gives the Nationalist government any authority at all at this point, and that war is only on hold. A lot of Chinese would recognize that without French and Union intervention, it is unlikely that the Nationalist government would have survived at all.

That intervention is over, and as the Communists say, "Power comes out of the power of a gun." They would certainly see the opportunity to topple the Nationalists and take power, and they have a reservor of popular support left by the Union aid provided in 1934. Unless crushed, or coopted, the Communists and Socialists are a direct threat to the Nationalist government and would view that government as a direct threat to their goals... a Communist China. So bottom line, it will take active measures by you as a player to deal with this.

Remember, the rule has always been that an untended nation is handled by the war moderator if a player is not able RP when needed. Parthini ran the Russians during part of the 2nd Great War, and a routinely got orders from him, and since the Union at that time was in effect, that was sufficient.

Fluffywuffy vanished twice now, once while running Italy and once again while running Japan. Both times in the midst of an important RP event.

So the war moderator took control. As China, you can play the Nationalists or the Communists, but not both, and as it is a contested situation, your opposition has to be run by the war moderator (me) or handed off to another player. Since Vas is the central Socialist power, I have let him determine Communist moves, especially as he has substantial expertise on China.

As I am also very well versed on 20th Century Cold War history, I am the backstop for realism.

In short, either you or a sub must provide me with orders that indicate what steps (specific steps) the Nationalist Government is taking to prevent a renewal of the fighting and revolution. Events are going to happen, and you need to react to them.

It is not fair as well to ask me to provide you with tips on survival. As War Moderator I will occasionally give out advice, mainly to ensure that things are reasonably accurate historically, but I will not give out advice on strategy.

Strategy is the realm of the players, and is their responsibility and a major point of this RP. (along with historical plausability and accuracy, as well of course as fun). Like any game, the possibility of losing exists and like any RP game, the possibility of getting killed off exists. How the players deal with that is part of the challenge of this RP.

OOC:

I have no idea how to fight a civil war, as I have never really had to do it in NS or any fanfiction up to this point. In addition to this, I can't handle the rapid speed of war RP'ing and orders and responses with my workload. Therefore I see no choice but to have someone else take control of China on two conditions.

First condition... I still retain control of China, but the strategies and such will fall to someone else who is more saavy in civil war type of tactics and strategies. Then that person has to contact me and let me know his / her plans for China then I say go ahead- no other way for me to learn how to do this and still remain in E20.

Second condition... I take up more RP'ing of China when I have free time, and after my workload is reduced somewhat.

=================

I know I will lose the civil war because I have no idea how to fight one, and I simply can't RP or post good orders at a breakneck speed. But if I lose China, then I'm pretty much "eliminated" from E20, then if I'm out of E20 I'll quit NS because there is NOTHING else for me here at NS. Maybe the American Civil War RP, but I'm not sure how well that RP will fare.

The only reason why I wanted to take up China in this alternate history is to create a democratic China, introduce capitalism into China, and build it up peacefully. I wanted to see a China that doesn't kill anyone who disagrees with it (unlike RL), enjoys political, economical, and civil freedoms... and work on creating a stable Asia. Not only that, but also explore the possibility of adapting the rich Chinese heritage and mystique to a modern setting.

However, I simply do not understand or know how to fight warfare. I have never done any war strategy or logistics or anything aganist a human player. The only war games I've had experience with is Civilization, Rise of Nations, and Empire Earth- all aganist the computer, and isn't as complicated as E20 warfare is. I'm way out of my league when it comes to war in E20.

This is getting too frustrating for me. I signed up into E20 to have fun RP'ing out a new kind of China, not constant war or conflict. RP'ing wars aren't fun for me because I have no idea how to do good strategy or tactics. I'm more of a civilian and peacetime kind of RP'er.

E20 is supposed to be fun, not pulling my hair out or screaming at people or have to argue all the time with Vas.

=============================

At any rate, consider Chinese elections held- and a rough 50 / 50 split between Nationalists and Communists. I'll come up with some Chinese leader names if and when I have time to do so this week.

Sharina, check your Tgs

Umm... yeah.... about that TG...

My internet is retarded so I'll send it to you when I get home.

ooc
the history of Communist power sharing is not particularly good. But at this point in history, no one would know this yet.

IC
Throughout China, Communist cell leaders made plans. LIberation may indeed have to come at the point of a gun.

Secret IC:

The Communist leaders are quietly contacted by French agents and a request is asked of them: that, should hostilites resume, the communists respect French citizens and that French advisors be treated as nuetrals. The French are prepared to offer funds and weapons if a simple request will not do it.

The Chinese elections are held. The outcome is a 50 / 50 split between the nationalists and the communists. Song Jiaoren is elected as Prime Minister, and Chiang Kai Shek reverts to "General" status (A general of the Chinese Armed Forces) in the new Republican government.

20 new Governors and 60 Senators are elected. Elections are still ongoing for Representatives as there are roughly 400 positions to fill.

-------------------------------------

OOC:

Song Jiaoren was one of the founders of the Kuomintang Party but was assassinated in 1913 (He wasn't assasinated in this timeline due to the Tian Dynasty). He believed in having a cabinet and establishing a Republican type of government.

I cannot think of any major Chinese characters for the role of Governors or Congess other than the Chinese characters like Mao Zedong, Chen Duxiu, and Hu Shi (They will have roles in the new government, but I need more names and characters for the Congress and governorships).

RL China has somewhere between 23 Provinces, 5 autonomous regions, and 4 municipialities but in this timeline I have no Tibet or Manchuria, so that number should be around 20 Provinces for the sake of simplicity. Therefore I need 20 Governors, and roughly 3 Senators per Province. 20 Representatives per Province should be reasonable as well- for a total of 400 Representatives.

OOC: Sharina if your stuck for names just make them up, here this might help http://www.behindthename.com/random/

OOC: Sharina if your stuck for names just make them up, here this might help http://www.behindthename.com/random/

Much thanks, Ato. :)

Japan makes an offer.

Peace Treaty if China agrees to limit its navy to 200 vessels, all of which would be under 1,000 tons (patrol and escort craft essentially), Japan retains Hainan, and China is forbidden to build or acquire 4-engined aircraft.

Refusal of these terms will result in military action by Japan against China as China will be considered a continued threat.

ooc
The Japanese are serious and unwilling to negotiate. They basically say take it or leave it.

acceptance means in game terms that next year must revert to peacetime, national effort or reduced government spending economic level and activity by China and Japan.

Japan makes an offer.

Peace Treaty if China agrees to limit its navy to 200 vessels, all of which would be under 1,000 tons (patrol and escort craft essentially), Japan retains Hainan, and China is forbidden to build or acquire 4-engined aircraft.

Refusal of these terms will result in military action by Japan against China as China will be considered a continued threat.

ooc
The Japanese are serious and unwilling to negotiate. They basically say take it or leave it.

acceptance means in game terms that next year must revert to peacetime, national effort or reduced government spending economic level and activity by China and Japan.

China accepts the naval limitations and acknowledges Japan owning Hainan Dao.

However, China must ask Japan to reconsider the issue with the four-engined aircraft. This is due to the fact that international airlines require four engines, as well as some domestic airliners.

Should the peace treaty be reached, China shall revert to National Effort (a gradual scaling down to Normal level spending).

China accepts the naval limitations and acknowledges Japan owning Hainan Dao.

However, China must ask Japan to reconsider the issue with the four-engined aircraft. This is due to the fact that international airlines require four engines, as well as some domestic airliners.

Should the peace treaty be reached, China shall revert to National Effort (a gradual scaling down to Normal level spending).

Japan will allow limited numbers of 4 engined commercial passenger aircraft (sufficient for an airline, not that anyone has many of these yet)

OOC: Just out of curiosity, and wanting to help Sharina, what is the status of Sun Yat Sen? Did he croak in '22 or what? I remember hearing about him somewhere...

Yes, Sun croaked on schedule (1925).

He was probably a leader of what passed for a liberal opposition movement under the Tian dynasty.

Japan will allow limited numbers of 4 engined commercial passenger aircraft (sufficient for an airline, not that anyone has many of these yet)

It is settled then. 4 engined aircraft only allowed for commercial / domestic airliners. If Japan accepts this then the peace treaty is guanatreed.

ooc
peace between China and Japan breaks out on May 18, 1936.

ooc
peace between China and Japan breaks out on May 18, 1936.

*Begins to contemplate pulling own hair out*

So exactly how many points does China have for 1936 again? Between the strikes, the politics, and the peace talks, I've lost track.

I don't know what they're points are completely, but figure that the year consists of six turns.

The first two they're on War Production, but in the first turn only they lose one-quarter of their points due to strikes. The next four turns China goes to National Effort.

I don't know what they're points are completely, but figure that the year consists of six turns.

The first two they're on War Production, but in the first turn only they lose one-quarter of their points due to strikes. The next four turns China goes to National Effort.

According to GB, the conversion is to take place next year which is 1937. So both China and Japan go to National Effort or normal spending or whatever starting in Janurary 1937.

ooc
The Japanese are serious and unwilling to negotiate. They basically say take it or leave it.

acceptance means in game terms that next year must revert to peacetime, national effort or reduced government spending economic level and activity by China and Japan.

According to GB, the conversion is to take place next year which is 1937. So both China and Japan go to National Effort or normal spending or whatever starting in Janurary 1937.

This year for simplicity, keep what is budgeted for 1936 in effect.

This year for simplicity, keep what is budgeted for 1936 in effect.

OOC:

Does this mean the build I posted a couple days ago will still go ahead? After that build is built for 1936, I'll scale down to National Effort, then to Normal Spending each successive year. I think National Effort for 1937, then Normal Spending for 1938.

OOC:

Does this mean the build I posted a couple days ago will still go ahead? After that build is built for 1936, I'll scale down to National Effort, then to Normal Spending each successive year. I think National Effort for 1937, then Normal Spending for 1938.

link to the relevent post

No idea how to do a link to a post, but it can be found here:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=454115&page=45

About halfway down the page.

link to the relevent post

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10122436&postcount=670

No idea how to do a link to a post, but it can be found here:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=454115&page=45

About halfway down the page.
If you click on the post number, it will open the post in a new window ("view single post").

OOC:

Does this mean the build I posted a couple days ago will still go ahead? After that build is built for 1936, I'll scale down to National Effort, then to Normal Spending each successive year. I think National Effort for 1937, then Normal Spending for 1938.

that is acceptable from my point of view as economic mod... the consequences will have to be seen.

that is acceptable from my point of view as economic mod... the consequences will have to be seen.

I'm not sure if the A10 is 2 engined or 4 engined bomber. Other than that, I haven't built anything that goes aganist the peace treaty with Japan. I haven't built any 4 engined bombers or expand my Navy, nor did I build coastal artillery. At least I posted that build before we signed the peace treaty between Japan and China- if the A10 bomber is 4 engined, then how much would it cost to convert it to a 2 engined bomber unit?

Also, I'm reverting to National Effort in 1937, then Normal Spending in 1938. I'm basically ramping down my economy in the same way it requires anyone's economy to ramp up to wartime economy (first National Effort, then Wartime).

With peace and stability apparently established, over the course of 1936, the Sovereign Republic of China will absorb another ten million refugees from the separatist states. Although Manchuria, in particular, receives some immigration from "the Mainland" (as it is coming to be called), it still suffers a net loss of population to China proper.

I'm not sure if the A10 is 2 engined or 4 engined bomber. Other than that, I haven't built anything that goes aganist the peace treaty with Japan. I haven't built any 4 engined bombers or expand my Navy, nor did I build coastal artillery. At least I posted that build before we signed the peace treaty between Japan and China- if the A10 bomber is 4 engined, then how much would it cost to convert it to a 2 engined bomber unit?

Also, I'm reverting to National Effort in 1937, then Normal Spending in 1938. I'm basically ramping down my economy in the same way it requires anyone's economy to ramp up to wartime economy (first National Effort, then Wartime).

it was the A12 Strike, a single engined attack plane, and the B10 bomber, a twin engined light bomber

Although the Sovereign Republic of China is currently at peace, it is a tense peace. In RL, the Communists and Nationalists only worked together as a "United Front" until Chiang Kai-shek (E20's Jiang Jieshi) felt strong enough to violently suppress them and establish his fascistic "New Life Movement." The Generalissimo was also of the opinion, during WWII, that if one's house is burning while bandits attack, you first put out the fire, then deal with the bandits. Because of this he used his armies mainly to fight the Communists rather than the Japanese invaders.

It is probable, with Sharina running him, that E20's Generalissimo Jiang will make different decisions (although I don't see why he realistically would). But even so, it is quite likely that Civil War will resume in China, one way or another, within a couple of years.

Therefore, to avoid a possible conflict of interest as someone both moderating and conducting a war, I will accept applications for the position of Mao Zedong.

With peace and stability apparently established, over the course of 1936, the Sovereign Republic of China will absorb another ten million refugees from the separatist states. Although Manchuria, in particular, receives some immigration from "the Mainland" (as it is coming to be called), it still suffers a net loss of population to China proper.
A little more detail . . .

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20Mongolia.gif

Premier Gelden finally manages to rein in the worst excesses of the Nokor militia groups, chiefly by bribing them with Union aid. Nevertheless, over ninety percent of the Han remaining in Mongolia, amounting to some three-and-a-half million people, depart the People's Republic on Mongolia in the summer and autumn of 1936. By the end of the year, the largest minority populations in Mongolia are Kazakhs and Russians, who are, unlike the hated Han, not discriminated against.

(Remember, Sharina, I told you it was a really bad idea to try to colonize Mongolia the way you did.)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20CCP.gif

Chairman Chen Duxiu, in June, announces his "Zou-Zou" policy (literally, "take a walk"), allowing all persons in Manchuria who do not wish to live under Socialism to leave if they so desire. According to the rumors, many are "allowed" to leave at gunpoint, in the dead of night, with only the clothes on their backs (the rumors are exaggerated, but many wealthy people are effectively dispossessed and exiled). With open borders for the next few months, Manchuria picks up about three million regugees from the Republic, but loses eight million emigrants to the Mainland for a net loss of about five million people.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20Kashgaria.gif

President Niyaz is forced to beat back a minor uprising of Han militants in the Spring. When their ethnic leaders lose, most Han, fearing reprisals, leave for the Republic. About a million refugees flood into the Republic's Western provinces of Gansu, Shaanxi, and Sichuan.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20Tibet.gif

Ethnic strife here is not as great as in either Mongolia or Kashgaria. Nevertheless about five hundred thousand Han end up leaving for the Republic over the Summer.

The newly democratic Chinese government wishes to hold a conference between both Nationalist and Communist parties to discuss the griveances, issues, and future plans of both parties. Then agree upon compromises and a workable frame that will allow both parties to achieve some of their goals without bloodshed or additional suffering.

Prime Minister Song Jiaoren has been advised that this would be a possible solution to defuse the potential civil war that may possibly occur between the two factions. The Prime Minister does not want more bloodshed, after the recent rebellions and the Japanese invasion.

-------------------------
OOC:

Anyone willing to RP the communist party? I'll RP the Nationalist side.

Criminy. I guess I'll have to. I'm the History Moderator and the resident expert, after all.

Hu Shi, of course, is already working closely with the Nationalists and many of the more radical members of the CCP consider him to be basically a member of the You faction already.

After considerable debate and internal negotiations lasting at least through most of September, the newly-reorganized Zhonghua Gongchangdang (Chinese Communist Party - formally split from Chen Duxiu's old Gongchangdang, which has become the Manchurian Communist Party) will appoint Zhou Enlai as their official "Constitutional Representative," charged with negotiating a permanent solution to governing in partnership with the Guomindang (Nationalists).

Criminy. I guess I'll have to. I'm the History Moderator and the resident expert, after all.

Hu Shi, of course, is already working closely with the Nationalists and many of the more radical members of the CCP consider him to be basically a member of the You faction already.

After considerable debate and internal negotiations lasting at least through most of September, the newly-reorganized Zhonghua Gongchangdang (Chinese Communist Party - formally split from Chen Duxiu's old Gongchangdang, which has become the Manchurian Communist Party) will appoint Zhou Enlai as their official "Constitutional Representative," charged with negotiating a permanent solution to governing in partnership with the Guomindang (Nationalists).

OOC:

I probably won't be able to start this "conference" until Monday at the earliest as I have a lot of X-mas stuff to do. I have no less than three families to have X-mas celebrations and dinners with- my mom's side (tomorrow), my new girlfriend's family (X-mas day), and my dad's side (X-mas night).

However, this coming week should be kosher for me to do both more RP and some more research into Chinese personas and leaders as I promised in the other thread because I'll have a nice week-long vacation.

Tuesday would work even better for me as a beginning for the conference, so no worries there.

SIC
In late October, 1936, the CCP's most prominent leader, Mao Zedong, travels to Warsaw to meet directly with Soviet Chairman Trotsky, LSI (Labour and Socialist International) Chairman Alfred Rosmer (a Frenchman, oddly enough, whose divided loyalties to France, on the one hand, and to his friend Trotsky, on the other, have been tested of late by Soviet adventures in the Far East), and LSI High Commissioner for East Asia Pak Hon-yong, in order to coördinate international support for the CCP and its goals for China.

Although the discussions are friendly at first, as time goes by the differences between Trotsky's interpretations of Marxist theory and Mao's interpreatations become increasingly evident. Some heated debates ensue, as Trotsky derides Mao for his "Bolshevik-vanguardist deviations towards bureacratic collectivism" while Mao angrily counters by accusing Trotsky of using "Red Imperialism" as a mere façade for his policy of "bourgeois-nationalist miltaristic expansion."

Discussions take a turn for the worse after that.

Mao departs in December and returns to the CCP headquarters at Shanghai. Although the breach between the two Communist leaders is kept quiet, it is an open secret in the LSI, which means that British Secret Services become aware of it fairly easily, and in turn the information becomes an open secret in the LTA intelligence community generally. The Chinese Nationalists are informed in January by an attaché to the Colombian embassy in Beijing.

The CCP
The LSI, of course, continues to provide material support to the CCP, but officially the story is given out, in a joint announcement in December by LSI and CCP spokespersons, that "the time has come for the CCP to take their demands to the Chinese government, and win their rights for themselves." Funding is drastically cut back.

Zhou Enlai arrives in Beijing on 6 February, 1937.

OOC:

I can start RP'ing the conference tonight or tomorrow.

OOC:

The conference will begin tomorrow. It will be held in Beijing, and Prime Minister Song Jiaoren will be attending personally.

He will be waiting in the conference room, ready to recieve Zhou Enlai and begin talks immediately.

Zhou Enlai, the Constitutional Representative for the Chinese Communist Party, arrives at the conference room in the Forbidden City at the scheduled time, wearing an excellently-tailored Western-style business suit rather than the traditional Chinese robes or the typical Eastern European frock coat.

He smiles disarmingly at the Prime Minister and bows respectfully.

"Mr. Song," he begins, "it would of course be a great honor to meet with a man of such distinction and integrity as yourself even were you not of such exalted rank. As it is, I feel quite outclassed. I have always admired your commitment to bringing modernization and democracy to our land, and I have long considered your patriotism beyond any possibility of reproach.

"I am certain that I will scarcely be able to even contribute anything of value to these discussions, but I will do my humble best."

He bows again, and sits down across the table.

Prime Minister Song Jiaoren gave his counterpart a smile as Zhou spoke. After Zhou finished, Song nodded and began his response.

"Thank you. I am honored that you and your party have decided to come here today to discuss China's future. I truly hope that we can create some kind of stability for China as we have been the victim of several horrific situations, such as the Japanese invasion and the errors of the last Emperor.

It is my highest hope that both the Zhonghua Gongchangdang and the Guomindang can work together for the betterment of China and her proud people.

If this conference succeeds, which I believe it will, history shall look back upon not just one, but two great leaders who ushers China into a new age of stability and prosperity."

After bowing towards Zhou as a gesture of respect, Song Jiaoren sat back down at the other end of the table, never taking his eyes nor his smile off Zhou. He began speaking again.

"My friend, let us try to figure out the best way to go about stabilizing the situation in China, and then plan for its future."

"Ah, stability, yes."

Zhou leans back comfortably while steepling his fingers on the table.

"Stability is the very essence and condition of contented satisfaction. Disruption arises when grievances are not answered, when justice is not served, when the greedy and the arrogant oppress the helpless and the righteous.

"Stability comes when these things are no longer happening.

"We both love our land, we both love the people. Is it not clear that we shall only have peace when the people are contented? When justice is served for them? When oppression is a thing of the past?

"I am sure you agree. Our parties may differ on the methods - we may even differ, perhaps, in our interpretations of the goal. But surely the interests of the people outweigh our own petty differences."

Song relaxed somewhat as he was pleased that Zhou was civilized and the conference was off to a good start. He began speaking in a calm tone of voice mostly to reassure Zhou.

"Yes, I believe someone once said, 'The good of the many outweigh the needs of the few'.

As you yourself said, we need to address the issues that may threaten the stability. Therefore, I'd like to discuss possible grievances, injustices, and possible compromises between our two schools of thought. Once we are able to hammer these issues out, then hopefully stability can be achieved.

Once we figure out what to do for the short term, then we could discuss long term plans for China for the betterment of all its peoples, regardless of political, ideological, or religious belief."

Song poured himself a cup of tea from a silver pitcher set on the conference table. He inclined his head towards Zhou.

"Would you like a cup of tea? Its quite refreshing and relaxing."

Zhou accepted the tea graciously.

"You are most generous, sir, thank you very much."

Taking a few sips, he complimented the blend and began to inquire politely about the source of the tea, and of the curious pitcher which, being silver, must be either British or Russian - or perhaps French.

Zhou accepted the tea graciously.

"You are most generous, sir, thank you very much."

Taking a few sips, he complimented the blend and began to inquire politely about the source of the tea, and of the curious pitcher which, being silver, must be either British or Russian - or perhaps French.

Song smiled.

"The tea comes from the Fujian area. They grow some of the best tea there. The silver pitcher was a gift from the French ambassador congratulating me on my election to the position of Prime Minister."

Song took another sip before continuing.

"I would like to start discussion on how to work out our differences for the greater good of China. Perhaps we could start by laying out our differences on the table, or so to speak?"

He reclined back into his chair, awaiting the response from Zhou.

"Ah, I thought it might be French. You know I studied in France? It is a beautiful country, and a refined people of highly cultivated sensibility."

He sips the tea and gazes pleasantly at the Prime Minister.

"Our differences? Yes, perhaps.

"But they may well be outwieghed by our similarities.

"Both of us believe in pluralistic democracy, yes? In freedom of thought, and freedom of speech? The rights of women? The critical importance of educating our people so they will no longer be enlsaved by any oppressor foreign or domestic, but free to pursue their full potential.

"What are our differences, exactly?"

"Ah, I thought it might be French. You know I studied in France? It is a beautiful country, and a refined people of highly cultivated sensibility."

He sips the tea and gazes pleasantly at the Prime Minister.

"Our differences? Yes, perhaps.

"But they may well be outwieghed by our similarities.

"Both of us believe in pluralistic democracy, yes? In freedom of thought, and freedom of speech? The rights of women? The critical importance of educating our people so they will no longer be enlsaved by any oppressor foreign or domestic, but free to pursue their full potential.

"What are our differences, exactly?"

Song nodded thoughtfully.

"Yes. The Guomindang and I both believe in these very same things that you do. We only seek to have freedoms, let it be speech, expression, thought, insipration, and most importantly, the freedom of being. In fact, I was one of the first ones that advocated democratic reforms here in China because I knew that without freedom, there will be resentment, anger, and hatred. That in turn will destroy order and integrity of civilization.

There has been some issues with delivering sufficient education to the Chinese populace. It is mainly because we are hard pressed to devote resources to educate our populace at the same time we are trying to rebuild our shattered economy and industry from the Japanese invasion. It may take several years before full educational potential can be truly realized for the Chinese people, but it must and will be done.

We are in the process of allowing women to have a say in matters and we are granting women suffrage, but it is not exactly an easy task. This is a time of changes, and most of the time changes on a large scale is difficult to undertake as old ways are transformed into new ways, along with the resistance of the traditonalists.

As for our differences, it may lie in the way each of us would like to accomplish our goals. There may be some among our paths of thought that may not be as civil or reasonable as the two of us are. We need to make it clear to these kinds of people that we can work together despite our differences."

Song took another sip, soothing his slightly dry throat.

"Rebuilding, of course, is critical to our survival as a people and as a civilization," Zhou replies. "But we must take care to rebuild correctly. We must take care to avoid repeating the abuses that provoked the people's anger in the first place."

He takes a sip of tea, and spends a moment contemplating a nearby flower arrangement.

"We Marxists do not believe in the social utility of private property. We believe that the very existence of private property inherently creates antagonisms between those who possess it and those who do not. These antagonisms, inturn, give rise to conflicts, which give rise to violence. Only when the means of production are controlled by the propertyless workers themselves will everlasting peace truly be possible.

"Building an entirely new world, a new system of relations, a new way of work - that is what we see as our task. It is easier with a clean slate. If we just put all the old bosses back in charge, and if the absentee landlords are confirmed in their holdings, then we will only be rebuilding our problems, not finding their solution."

He pauses and taps his nose thoughtfully.

"This is probably our first challenge here, Mr. Prime Minister."

Song massaged his chin before countering Zhou.

"That lies our difference of thought.

My party and I believe that competition has the potential to improve humanity. It is just a part of human nature as emotions and intellect are. Competitiveness has driven humanity to constantly improve and reinvent itself, and allowed humanity to accomplish incredible feats in attempts to outdo each other.

One example is the United States. Just 250 years ago, they were merely colonists trying to fight for their survival in a new world. They fought for independence 150 years ago aganist Britain, one of the greatest world powers at that point in time. After the Americans won, they set about building up their nation. They encouraged competition, commerce, businesses, and inventiveness. It was one of the major forces that allowed America to accelerate from a backwards and impoverished nation into the world's leading industrial and technological powers despite a devastating Civil War. Without internal or external competition, the United States may very well still be an impoverished nation limited to the Atlantic coastline of North America.

Another example is the case of Egypt, Greece, and Rome. Within these ancient civilizations, their new dynasties wanted to outdo their old dynasties, hence their mounuments growing in magnificence, splendor, and grandeur. The Pyramids, the Colessum, the Partheon, the Colossus, and so forth.

Basically, people having private property of theirs drives their neighbor or other envious people to do better than them. The envious ones try to build a better house, automobile, train, aircraft, technology, intellectual property, and so on. If and when the envious person succeeds, then the original person becomes envious and wants even better things. Then the cycle repeats ad-infinitium unless either person achieves an absouletely perfect product, flawless in every aspect.

This cycle has allowed our technology to develop at a rapid pace and allowed us to experience a lot of beneficial advances, notably in medicine, living conditions, and civilian infrastructure. For example, a nation may be envious of another nation's excellent public transportation system or privately held enterprises, so the envious nation attempts to build an even better ones, which would serve its people much better than the other nation's versions would. The people benefit from this. The same goes for domestic tools, medicines, hospitals, schools, and so forth.

I believe that if there were no private property to drive competition and the subsquent constant tweaking and improvement of technologies, devices, and life standards, then the world may very well still be in the Bronze or Iron Age."

Song finished his first cup of tea. Once he sipped his last drop, he resumed his dialog.

"I do agree that we need to create an entirely new government. Most of the old Imperial family and the officials in the old government have been removed from power. In their place are newly elected officials directly elected from their cities, towns, or villages. At least that is a step in the correct direction, wouldn't you agree?"

Zhou smiled indulgently.

"I think you are deluding yourself, sir, if you truly believe that a worthy civilization may be built upon the foundation of envy. Look again at the United States. Its founders owned other men - that was the basis of their wealth. It was a society founded upon whips and shackles.

"And if they have achieved great power at such moral cost, what have they done with it? Provoked a world war for the aggrandizement of their own power. I shudder to think of China following the American example.

"Looking at the other civilizations you mention, it is much the same. How were the Pyramids built, sir? And to what purpose - they are nothing more than glorified headstones. The Pantheon? A beautiful and very expensive monument to imaginary supernatural powers. What happened in the Colosseum? Slaves publicly murdered one another for the amusement of tyrants.

"Our own Great Wall at least served a respectable function, yet even that was built at a great human cost.

"No, I do not believe you have truly thought this through, Mr. Prime Minister. Fostering competition unleashes only destructive forces, and if creation results, it is not creation for any useful purpose.

"But the issue is not competition, as such. Even the Union itself has many enterprises working in the same fields. The distinguishing characteristic is ownership, as I have said, Mr. Prime Minister. In the Union, enterprises are owned by their workers, and governed by councils elected by the workers. Workers are paid stipends roughly equivalent to wages, and share in the profits of their enterprises much as capitalist investors are paid dividends. It is not a true socialist system - it is but a preparatory state to the transition to socialism, which itself shall only be the transitional state to communism.

"But look at what the Union has achieved. They are far, far more powerful than the United States, and became so in a much shorter span of time. They have united many disparate peoples under a single banner, to work towards a single goal. This is a much better model for China to follow, if follow another we must."

Song poured his second cup of tea while listening to Zhou's counter-arguement. When Zhou finished his declarations, Song nodded respectfully.

"I understand what and where you are coming from.

However, to answer your questions. The Pyramids were an engineering marvel as it was apparently done without the use of the wheel. The Parthenon was another engineering marvel that follows astronomy and geometry. The Colessum was another marvel, as well as our Great Wall. These projects driven by competition and the human desire to outdo itself were far ahead of their time. Just imagine, if competition or 'one-upmanship' were to stimulate such advanced projects for their eras, what would it do for us in our modern era? Perhaps a mile tall skycraper, several times taller than the Empire State Building? Or a tunnel connecting mainland Asia to Japan? Or a bridge spanning the Straits of Gilbratar?

As for the United States, is it not true that the 'ownership of men' and slavery was abolished afer their bloody Civil War? In fact, the former Confederate States of America was economically and infrastructure devastated after the Civil War. The Americans rebuilt these battered states without use of slavery, plantations, or the like. If I'm not mistaken, the Americans have begun the process of equalizing the rights of the Africans living there, slowly restoring justice towards these long suffering people.

The concept of ownership has been a part of human nature for as long as humankind has existed. It is a part of each and every one of us, just like human emotions, biological functions, our intelligence, and our sentience. If you strip away every material possession that you 'own', you're left with just yourself. You still own yourself, your own body, your own hair, eyes, hands, arms, legs, heart, stomach, lungs, and soul. The concept of your body and being supposedly belonging to the 'State' according to the absence of ownership is contradictory to the freedoms that socialism purports to extol. It would be paramount to slavery if you do not belong to yourself, is it not?

A person must have the inalienable right to own himself or herself. Individualism is the most important thing that a single sentient being can possess. It defines who they are, and is the basic driving force behind the human desire to live, exist, and make contributions. Some of our greatest inventors, artists, generals, leaders, and so forth would have never made the conrtibutions to society as they have done if they did not a driving force to push them onwards. Ownership can also inspire people to do well. For instance, if someone desires to own an educational degree, he or she would work hard to improve himself or herself then make contributions so that he or she can achieve that ownership of the educational degree.

We can debate day and night for a hundred years about who is correct and who is not. Only history will be the judge on whether socialism is going to preserve or not.

Although I do admit you do have a point regarding the Union. Perhaps we can attempt to figure out a workable frame of governance and system implementation that will satisfy both the Zhonghua Gongchangdang and the Guomindang, and ensure the future of China.

I would like to hear your suggestions on what you would like to be implemented within the government of China that are within reason."

"Within reason?" Zhou shakes his head sadly. "Our respective concepts of reason must be far apart indeed if you truly believe as you say."

Zhou pauses for a long time before he speaks again.

"You still admire the useless Pyramids? The killing-ground of the Colosseum? These are most emphatically not advanced projects at all, but a complete and barbaric waste of the human potential for concerted action in order to glorify cruel, authoritarian states. States, moreover, in which power was not allocated on the basis of merit or competence but upon the arbitrary accidents of birth. There is nothing admirable or advanced about these things.

"Jean-Pierre Proudhon denounced property as a form of theft. What you have just done, therefore, is defend a criminal principle as humanity's very essence. If you are correct, then there is indeed no hope for humanity.

"Fortunately, you are not.

"Private property is simply an invention of modern bourgeois civilization - throughout history, many different forms of property have existed - state, communal, collective, familial - the list goes on and on. Even in the United States there are forms of property beside the private. What is odd - to be blunt, a little troubling - to me is that you seem to regard the conflicts and oppressions engendered by private ownership as something positive.

"Moreover, you seem to misunderstand modern socialism profoundly.

"In the Soviet theory derived from the Russian Revolution, universal state ownership only exists at the highest level of socialism, at the very moment when the state itself is on the verge of complete disintegration. Chairman Mao differs with Chairman Chen and Chairman Trotsky as to the best means of approaching this goal - the Zhonghua Gongchangdang Central Committee in fact suspects that the Union may well be travelling a sterile path to counterrevolution if they do not successfully control the market forces their system currently employs . . ."

Zhou sighs.

"But that is neither here nor there. Suffice it to say that any Marxist would find your concept of property as arbitrary in its origins as the path of a butterfly through a flower garden on a windy day. There is nothing inherent or essential about it. I do not own myself, sir. I am myself, and that is a great difference. Who could own the sunlight, or a rainbow, or a birdsong? These are real things, where your property is merely an idea. Property is a creature of law, which is itself another idea. Ideas change according to time and circumstance.

"To take your own example, in the United States, their founding leaders owned other men, and yet a few generations later the descendants of those founding leaders waged war upon one another for the principle that ownership of other men is wrong and abominable.

"We Communists believe that ownership of the means of of production by anyone other than the producers is wrong and abominable. It is not right that one man should give up the product of his labor for the benefit of another who does not labor, simply because that other 'owns' the factory in which the first man works. That is simply theft, which, backed by the armed power of the state, becomes extortion."

Zhou finishes his own tea, which by now has become quite cold. He politely declines a second cup.

"Considering the great and unexpected gulf between us, I am not entirely sure what you might imagine to 'reasonable.'"

Song groaned inwardly, full of frustration. He revealed nothing of his troubled mind to Zhou, though.

"I was merely stating that I admire the engineering feat itself, not the political, religious, or social issues related to the Pyramids, Colessum, Parhenon, Great Wall, and so forth. What I am saying is that it was indeed a marvel to engineer the Pyramids without use of the wheel, the Parthenon being engineered precisely with geometery, and so on. I'm simply speaking from an engineering perpsective in which competition and 'possession' drives one to great lengths to accomplish incredible feats.

Suppose the Pharaohs, Greeks, Romans, and so forth treated their workers fairly and luxuriously, the engineering feat itself would still stand. The Pyramids would have still been built without the wheel, the Parthenon would still be built with precise geometery far advanced for its era, the Great Wall would have still been built as a barrier aganist barbarians, and so on.

Suppose we were able to drive ourselves to similiar incredible feats in the modern era? What would we be capable of, if we push ourselves hard and continue to raise the bar? What if we compete amongst ourselves to create better, bigger, and more effective projects? We could do unimaginable things, like I stated earlier, with a tunnel connecting Japan to mainland Asia, a tunnel connecting Alaska to Siberia under the Bering Straits, a bridge spanning the Straits of Gilbratar, a mile tall skycraper five times taller than the Empire State Building, and a plethora of other potential wondorous things.

To answer your question about my belief regarding private property and ownership. I believe that progress can and does arise from conflict and chaos. If everybody agrees on the same thing, society and humanity would become stangant. There would be little or no drive to constantly improve ourselves if we are simply content to leave things as they are. Through conflict comes resolution, and with resolution, comes improvement.

If I'm not mistaken, you have something called a Dialetic Cycle? Thesis and Anti-Thesis? Constant Change? Conflict and Resolution? Also isn't it true that for constant change to occur, there must be both cause and effect? For cause and effect to occur, there must be a conflict.

Allow me to put forth an example that may put things into perpsective. There are two doctors. One discovers a medicine and then thereby claims it in his name, or a patent if you will. The second doctor is working on a similiar medicine, but now cannot claim it as his own because of the patent. That doctor decides to try something different, and eventually comes up with a new type of medicine that may either cure a different disease or be a cheaper or more efficient version of the first doctor's medicine. Therefore, ownership in this case does incur a benefit.

Another example is a person who desires to own a college diploma in engineering. He works tirelessly in his studies, expanding his knowledge, and undertakes study or research projects to achieve his diploma. He succeeds, and he acquires ownership of the diploma. Then he finds employment with his skills, and he eventually manages to engineer a marvelous hydroelectric dam that benefits hundreds of thousands of people with electricity. Yet another example of beneficial effects from 'ownership'.

Perhaps I worded my concept of ownership of self poorly. What I was trying to say is that I believe that everyone has the right of self-determination, the right to choose what he or she wants in life, and the way he or she wants to achieve these goals. I believe that these rights, decisions, and goals cannot and should not be forced upon the person by other people or by the 'State'.

Although, I do perfectly understand what you mean by what you just said regarding means of production, and I quote yourself...

'We Communists believe that ownership of the means of of production by anyone other than the producers is wrong and abominable. It is not right that one man should give up the product of his labor for the benefit of another who does not labor, simply because that other 'owns' the factory in which the first man works.'

That issue can be understood and can be resolved. That could be one of our most important things to resolve in a new stable government between the Nationalists and Communists. For instance, we could make it so that the farmers own the grain processing plant and elect a chairman, managers, and foremen of the grain processing plant.

I am pretty sure the more reasonable members of the Guomindang would be willing to pursure that idea and reform. What say you?"

"In Marxism, of course, as in Hegel's system previously, the dialectic cycle ultimately has an end," Zhou responds with a faint smile.

He pauses again before continuing.

"The system you outline would be very similar to the one as practiced in the Union, in fact. While it might not please the more impatient representatives of the Zhonghua Gongchangdang, nevertheless it would represent real progress. With genuine opportunities for democratic change, the selection process could be trusted to take us the rest of the way, and we would be able to move forward together in peace. We may even be able to use these reforms as an opportunity to achieve reunification with the People's Republic of Heijiliao [OoC: Manchuria's formal name, of course], and so prevent that territory's annexation by the Soviets.

"I have something to take back to my Comrades, at the very least."

He calls an aide in (also dressed in Western clothing), and speaks with him quietly for a few moments. After the aide departs, he turns to face Song once more and grins impishly.

"We'll have to work on that patent system you're thinking about, though - no doctors should ever be allowed to hoard cures for the sake of material gain. That's simply a matter of public interest."

Prime Minister Song Jiaoren gave Zhou Enlai a geniune smile.

"At last, some real progress. I am happy that we agree on something, at least. We can start attempts into implementing the ownership of the means of production by the producers themselves, like the grain processing plant example. Perhaps this will allow Nationalists and Communists to work together in more ways than one.

We should have these conferences more often. Perhaps we will be able to succeed where no other nation has done before, Nationalist and Communist working together for the betterment of its people.

I am glad that we have had the opporunity to discuss our ideologies and discover a possible workable solution for our government. I would also like to thank you for your patience in our discussions.

We can work out the finer details as we go along. The patent system definitely does need to be addressed, as you suggest. We have a possibly long road ahead of us, but the rewards shall be great once we reach its end, wouldn't you say?"