NationStates Jolt Archive

On 1 May, 1926, Armistice was declared after two years of Intercontinental War between the London Treaty Alliance and the Warsaw Pact and Affiliated Powers. One of the provisions of the Armistice was that a mandate be developed for a "League of Nations" to be created, in order to help prevent future conflicts from spinning out of control and threatening the very future of human civilization.

The London Treaty Alliance:

United States of America - James Cox
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - John Pimlott
Constitutional Monarchy of Canada - Daniel Clark
Union of South Africa - No delegate
Federated States of India - Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Commonwealth of Australia - No delegate
Constitutional Monarchy of New Zealand
Republic of Gran Colombia - Vicente Sewell
Republic of Bolivia - Daniel Domingo Urey Salamanca
Kingdom of Italy - Ercole Verdi
Republic of Ecuador (NPC)
United States of Mexico - No delegate
New State of Portugal (NPC)
Kingdom of Morocco (NPC)
Islamic Republic of Algeria - Dr. Ahmad Tayseer
Grand Duchy of Burgundy - Karl Schmitz

Neutral States:

Sovereign Republic of China - Lu Hong
Middle Eastern Union - Husayn Rauf Orbay
United States of Brazil - Sr. Tiago
God-given Kingdom of Afghanistan (NPC)
Democratic Republic of Vietnam - Le Duc Tho
Empire of Ethiopia (NPC)
Kingdom of the Netherlands (NPC)
Democratic Republic of Denmark (NPC)
Oriental Republic of Uruguay (NPC)
Republic of Chile - No delegate assigned by player
Republic of Nicaragua (NPC)
Republic of Costa Rica (NPC)
Republic of Honduras (NPC)
Republic of El Salvador (NPC)
Republic of Guatemala (NPC)
Republic of Paraguay (NPC)
Republic of Iceland (NPC)
Republic of the Virgin Islands (NPC)
People's Monarchy of Spain - Rámon Franco y Bahamonde
Kingdom of Bulgaria - Constantin Mousinilev
Republic of Ireland (NPC)

Nonmember Observers:

Republic of Argentina - Dr. Ortega
Kingdom of Sweden

Withdrawn Members:

Sovereign People's Conciliar Union (1926-1938)
Republic of France (1926-1938)
Conciliar Republic of Czechoslovakia (1926-1938)
Federation of Yugoslavia (1926-1938)
Kingdom of Romania (1926-1938)
Apostolic Kingdom of Hungary (1926-1938)

There are currently 36 sovereign members of the League, meaning that 19 votes constitute a majority, and 22 constitute a supermajority.

Twenty-eight countries have signed, making the Charter and Declaration legally binding.

Following American precedent, the Charter and the Declaration are signed separately.

Charter of the League of Nations
The principal organs of the League shall consist of the International Congress, the High Council, and the International Court of Justice.

I. Each Constituent State shall be entitled to one Delegate and one Vote in the International Congress. Any Constituent State may propose an amendment or remove one to the charter of League, but this must pass a three-fifths supermajority vote in the Congress [OoC:There are forty-one members, so a supermajority is twenty-five votes; Vas Pokhoronim or Galveston Bay votes for NPCs]. Any Constituent State may bring any issue before the High Council for discussion.
I.1 The International Congress shall have the power to pass binding resolutions as international law.

II. Constituent States have the right to withdraw from the League, and thus from its protections and obligations.
II.1 Membership in the League carries at least an implicit collective security and nonaggression treaty between Members. Any Member that attacks another, regardless of its reasons, shall be considered to have relinquished its Membership in the League and will be regarded as an objective enemy of all the Constituent States.
II.2 All Constituent States foreswear military force as an instrument of debt collection, and annexation of territory and that military force will only be considered legal if undertaken to defend a nations soveriegn national territory, or the soveriegn national territory of an ally.
II.3 All Constituent States further foreswear the practice of providing arms to guerilla and terrorist groups operating against the legally elected government of a soveriegn nation.
II.4 The League and its organs and missions are to be funded by voluntary donations from its Constituent States.

III. A High Council shall be established consisting permanently of the United States of America, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, The Union of Social-Democratic Republics, the Workers’ Republic of Germany, and the Republic of France, along with four altenating members.
III.1 Council members shall be enabled to bring up Resolutions of Censure, Sanctions, Exclusion, and War against other Constituent States which have been found in violation of international law. The violations in question must be sufficently extreme to justify such measures, such as unprovoked aggression against a peaceful state, the negligent or deliberate murder of civilians in a war zone, the use of slaves, or other egregious human rights violations. These laws will be defined in the Charter, or in Resolutions to be passed. It is further proposed that any alleged violation be verified by the International Court before the defendant is considered subject to such Resolutions.
III.2 The Chair of the High Council shall act as chief executive of the League according to the rules of order, and Chairmanship of the High Council shall rotate from session to session.

V. An International Court consisting of nine justices from different countries shall be established to address grievances and disputes between the League and its Constituent States and between individual Constituent States. Judges from Constituent States are to be formally nominated by the Chair of the High Council, and confirmed by a majority vote in the Congress.
V.1 It is proposed that any member of the Congress be able to bring forward a case for the Court to consider, which must be seconded by another member of the High Council and accepted by one Jurist in order to be heard. Any case to be considered by the Court must involve either:
(I) an alleged violation of or question regarding the League main Charter,
(II) an alleged violation of or question regarding the League Charter on Human Rights, or
(III) an alleged violation of or question regarding the Geneva Conventions.
V.2 The Court's jurisdiction shall be limited to League member states, deriving its authority from a voluntary compact made by joining the League.
V.3 When a question does involve a League member who is represented on the Court, the member must recuse their Jurist, and the High Council will appoint an alternate Jurist for that case.
V.4 The powers of the Court shall include the authority to censure, fine, and eject members, and to mandate economic action against nonmember states. Furthermore, it shall have all the powers and prerogatives of any domestic court with regard to individuals or organizations accused or convicted of violating the League charter or national sovereignty.
V.5 National sovereignty is defined as the right to form an independent government and maintain laws. No nation or organization may interfere with another nation's sovereignty unless it is a voluntary compact between the people, or representatives of the people, of the involved parties. Soverignty is also defined as the right to decide the country's own foriegn policy. No nation may prevent any other from making treaties or trade agreements with another nation.

Current Signatories (13)
Union of Social-Democratic Republics
United States of America
Socialist Federation of Yugoslavia
Republic of France
Kingdom of Romania
Republic of Bolivia
People's Monarchy of Spain
Workers' Republic of Germany
Union of South Africa
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
Dominion of Australia and New Zealand
Constitutional Monarchy of Vietnam
Grand Duchy of Burgundy
Kingdom of Bulgaria
NPC Signatories (15)
Denmark
Czechoslovakia
Netherlands
Canada
Ethiopia
Iceland
Virgin Islands
Uruguay
Nicaragua
Costa Rica
Honduras
El Salvador
Guatemala
Paraguay
Afghanistan

Proposed International Declaration on Human Rights

I. People are born and remain free and equal in rights. Legal discrimination on the basis of class, race, gender, ethnicity, religion, political ideology, or any other social distinctions shall be prohibited among the Signatories except where the goal of such discrimination can be shown to be the more perfect approximation of equality, as with affirmative action.
II. The aim of all political association is the preservation of the natural and imprescriptible rights of humanity. These rights are life, health, shelter, work, liberty, security, self-determination, and resistance to oppression.
III. The principle of all sovereignty resides essentially in the people. No body nor individual may exercise any authority which does not proceed directly from the people.
IV. Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights. These limits can only be determined by law.
V. Law can only prohibit such actions as are hurtful to society. Nothing may be prevented which is not forbidden by law, and no one may be forced to do anything not provided for by law.
VI. Law is the expression of the general will. Every citizen has a right to participate personally, or through his or her representative, in its foundation. It must be the same for all, whether it protects or punishes. All citizens, being equal in the eyes of the law, are equally eligible to all dignities and to all public positions and occupations, according to their abilities, and without distinction except that of their virtues and talents.
VII. No person shall be accused, arrested, or imprisoned except in the cases and according to the forms prescribed by law. Any one soliciting, transmitting, executing, or causing to be executed, any arbitrary order, shall be punished. But any citizen summoned or arrested in virtue of the law shall submit without delay, as resistance constitutes an offense.
VIII. The law shall provide for such punishments only as are strictly and obviously necessary, and no one shall suffer punishment except it be legally inflicted in virtue of a law passed and promulgated before the commission of the offense.
IX. As all persons are held innocent until they shall have been declared guilty, if arrest shall be deemed indispensable, all harshness not essential to the securing of the prisoner's person shall be severely repressed by law.
X. No one shall be disquieted on account of his or her opinions, including his or her religious or political views, provided their manifestation does not disturb the public order established by law.
XI. The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man. Every citizen may, accordingly, speak, write, and print with freedom, but shall be responsible for such abuses of this freedom as shall be defined by law.
XII. The security of the rights of man and of the citizen requires public military forces. These forces are, therefore, established for the good of all and not for the personal advantage of those to whom they shall be intrusted.
XIII. A common contribution is essential for the maintenance of the public forces and for the cost of administration. This should be equitably distributed among all the citizens in proportion to their means.
XIV. All the citizens have a right to decide, either personally or by their representatives, as to the necessity of the public contribution; to grant this freely; to know to what uses it is put; and to fix the proportion, the mode of assessment and of collection and the duration of the taxes.
XV. Society has the right to require of every public agent an account of his or her administration.
XVI. A society in which the observance of the law is not assured, nor the separation of powers defined, has no constitution at all.

Current Signatories (13)
Union of Social-Democratic Republics
United States of America
Socialist Federation of Yugoslavia
Republic of France
Kingdom of Romania
Republic of Bolivia
People's Monarchy of Spain
Workers' Republic of Germany
Union of South Africa
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
Dominion of Australia and New Zealand
Constitutional Monarchy of Vietnam
Grand Duchy of Burgundy
Kingdom of Bulgaria
NPC Signatories (15)
Denmark
Czechoslovakia
Netherlands
Canada
Ethiopia
Iceland
Virgin Islands
Uruguay
Nicaragua
Costa Rica
Honduras
El Salvador
Guatemala
Paraguay
Afghanistan

Signatories to the Budapest Convention on Biological and Chemical Warfare (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=459119)
Soviet Union
United States
Japan
Morocco
Netherlands
Norway
Siam
Virgin Islands
Uruguay
Nicaragua
Costa Rica
Honduras
El Salvador
Guatemala
Paraguay
Portugal
Yugoslavia
Republic of China
France
Hungary
Algeria
Canada
Austalia
Great Britain

Brazil would doubtless be interested in such a League. As long as both the Union and America are signatories. There need be no more aggression or occupation of sovereign countries.

To put one proposal on the table, we say that any decisions taken by such a League to combat rogue states will be an immediate use of force. There can be no dallying on violent powers. Any nation transgressing national borders without consent from the League should be voted with a 70% majority by the League and then immediate affirmative action should be taken. We are determined this League will not be weak or simply a tool for evil to hide behind and manipulate.

The newly appointed ambassador to the League of Nations, Vladimir Milosovic had made it his duty to start off on the right foot for this organization.
"I think the first order of buisness should be the trouble going on between Colombia and Brazil. What are the grounds for Colombia's claims? And the Brazilian counter?"

The newly appointed ambassador to the League of Nations, Vladimir Milosovic had made it his duty to start off on the right foot for this organization.
"I think the first order of buisness should be the trouble going on between Colombia and Brazil. What are the grounds for Colombia's claims? And the Brazilian counter?"

Robert Lansing, who was beginning to despair about ever getting to go home, also wanted the League to get off on the right foot.

"For that matter, why does Brazil even have any business getting involved. The reports I have are that Colombia is providing substantial, even huge, amounts of assistance to Venezuela. Apparently Colombia would like the two nations to unite as one nation, but there is no threat of force by Colombia, and for that matter, no troops are engaged, no war is at hand between the two nations, and both have actually been part of the same nation in the past.

The only report of threats of force that I have received was a threat by Brazil to use force, and a note from the United States reminding Brazil that under the peace treaty it signed it would refrain from such threats. The United States also reminded Brazil that it has an alliance with Colombia and would be required to come to its (Colombia's) aid if Brazil was able to attack it in some way. Although my military advisors tell me that would be difficult for Brazil to do in the extreme."

The Bolivian ambassator Daniel Domingo Salamanca Urey says, "I agree, the situation needs to be reviewed."

The London Treaty Alliance:

United States of America
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
(Dominion of Canada)
(Dominion of South Africa)
(Dominion of India)
(Dominion of Australia)
Republic of Colombia
Kingdom of Italy
Republic of Ecuador
Republic of Chile
New State of Portugal

The Warsaw Pact and Affiliated Powers:

Union of Social-Remocratic Republics
Workers Republic of Germany
Federation of Yugoslavia
Conciliar Republic of Czechoslovakia
Apostolic Kingdom of Hungary
Greater Chinese Empire

I think Portugal is still a kingdom at this point, but it might be a republic. Also Morocco (the Sultanate) is in the LTA, as is the Republic of Iceland, Republic of the Virgin Islands (ok, they are small, but they are in it), and the various Latin American nations would probably join, even the small ones, in order to have a voice in world affairs.

Romania is interested in joining this League of Nations.

The French governemnt senda request for membership to the new League.

OOC: Just for FYI for this, the Middle Eastern Union Envoy to the League of Nations, is Huseyin Rauf Orbay.

I think Portugal is still a kingdom at this point, but it might be a republic. Also Morocco (the Sultanate) is in the LTA, as is the Republic of Iceland, Republic of the Virgin Islands (ok, they are small, but they are in it), and the various Latin American nations would probably join, even the small ones, in order to have a voice in world affairs.
Portugal fell to Salazar in 1926, and I figure that stands, and if anything was accelerated by the Civil War in Spain. Congratulations, you've got the world's first Fascist on your team.

As Nelson would say, "Haa ha!"

I'll edit to include your puppet states.

OOC: Can I get France in there as a "nuetral"? They've requested memebership.

"IF the USA could create a de-militarized zone to keep block off the borders it would give us some time to come to a diplomatic end to this. Why is Venezuela being absorbed exactly? I see no reason why it cannot be it's own nation, thus avoiding the problem with Colombia and Brazil. The League of Nations can help Venezuela get back on it's feet, without such annexation taking place."

"Ex-Pact forces and Italian forces should not be contributed due to hardships at home and the military is still angry at the LTA countries. Perhaps in a few years aid can come from the nations hurt by the war, but until then unaffected nations should be the main proponents of this league."

Portugal fell to Salazar in 1926, and I figure that stands, and if anything was accelerated by the Civil War in Spain. Congratulations, you've got the world's first Fascist on your team.

As Nelson would say, "Haa ha!"

I'll edit to include your puppet states.

maybe not, as Portugal was in the LTA in 1925, and 100,000 US troops where in Lisbon for a lot of that year and a good chunk of this one. The US would have tipped of the Portuguese government if Salazar became a dangerous problem of trying a coup. Its kind of hard to say. Portugal is certianly pretty right wing I would think though. On the other hand, his rule would have made Portuguese entry a lot easier, so I guess it makes sense. It could also been a decision made to keep him from gaining power by undercutting his base by "being tough on communism".

The French Minister, Yvon Delbos, has returned as French diplomat to the League of Nations, at least until France can pick up the pieces.

"The government of France has insturcted me to take up the position of France's representative to the League of Nations."

"IF the USA could create a de-militarized zone to keep block off the borders it would give us some time to come to a diplomatic end to this. Why is Venezuela being absorbed exactly? I see no reason why it cannot be it's own nation, thus avoiding the problem with Colombia and Brazil. The League of Nations can help Venezuela get back on it's feet, without such annexation taking place."

"Ex-Pact forces and Italian forces should not be contributed due to hardships at home and the military is still angry at the LTA countries. Perhaps in a few years aid can come from the nations hurt by the war, but until then unaffected nations should be the main proponents of this league."

"Well, seeing as we don't even have a charter yet for this organization, having the League step in to build countries might be a tad premature." Lansing remarked. "As far as a DMZ is concerned, I think the Amazon jungle handles that task very well."

Milosovic smiled, "Ah, my knowledge of South American geology is not that great, i hope that our charter can be exstablished ASAP."

"Well, seeing as we don't even have a charter yet for this organization, having the League step in to build countries might be a tad premature." Lansing remarked. "As far as a DMZ is concerned, I think the Amazon jungle handles that task very well."

Urey replies, "Did not the Venezuelans choose too be independant after the Crisis? The people had a cance to join either Colombia or Brazil and they turned it down. What is the reason for Venezuela joining Colombia now?"

"Perhaps that should be something we should accomplish now?"

Dr. Hugo Eckener stepped in. As chief of the Zeppelin Air Corps, he was out of a job. However, he still had plans for the Zeppelin that did not involve bullets or bombs. He was here to ensure that his dream could come true.

OOC: He won't be here, but he will definately try to patch up relationships between Germany and the US. The US was a big market for Zeppelins, so I figure he was a good choice for a peaceful guy.

Urey replies, "Did not the Venezuelans choose too be independant after the Crisis? The people had a cance to join either Colombia or Brazil and they turned it down. What is the reason for Venezuela joining Colombia now?"

"Perhaps they have better incentive to do so. Either way, except for the threat of force, I see no reason why the League need interfere."

"Yes, Venezuela chose its destiny before this terrible tragety. However, new feeling may have come about, so perhaps it is time for another Plebicide with the same choices?"

The Doctor continued.

"Speaking of which, the Neutral nation of Burgundy, which was recently held by the Pact, is providing quite a bother to the German speakers there. As you all know, Burgundy was once a part of France, and then a part of the German Empire. Now it is neither. However, that is a problem to the leaders of the Republic. We believe that Burgundy should be restored to the Workers, or at least divided with the French, as compensation for 60 years ago. Therefore, instead of fighting, we have brought it to this table. What are the League's thoughs on the matter?"

"Perhaps they have better incentive to do so. Either way, except for the threat of force, I see no reason why the League need interfere."

"It reminds me of old European impearialism that you are pleged, by the Monroe Doctrine, to keep from comming back to Latin America. It is disturbing that it seems perfectly fine with you that other Latin Americans annexing each other but you don't want Europeans to impearialize the same land in question."

(ooc:Vas, Bolivia is one of the Allies, you forgot it in the second post)

"As distasteful as I find it to be, Moskva must agree with Washington in regard to the South American situation."

The speaker, an attractive middle-aged woman with an air of authority, enters the room briskly and takes the seat reserved for the chief Union delegate. She continues.

"This League at present has no Charter, but its provisional mandate refers specifically to the prevention of warfare. As worrisome as the Colombians' expansionism may be to their neighbors, there is no basis for interference in the absence of the immediate threat of armed conflict."

She looks inquisitively at the Brazilian and the Bolivian.

"You are not eager for that? The Colombian plan may yet fall through in any case. In the meantime, you might count your blessings that your neighbors are gentle." She glances pointedly at Lansing. "Especially when they need not be."

"There is no situation between Venezeula and Colombia; We have offered our hand to Venezeula, and Brazil jumps at our throats threatening military action. We ask that should the Brazillians attempt any sort of militistic option, the League step forth.

Having said that, we see no reason why Brazil cannot be friendly with us? We have offered economic aid.."

Dr. Chavez turned to the Germany representative, to speak to him aside.

"You know, we have been at odds quite often. Do not fret however, should Venezeula and Colombia become one union. You have my word that we would be honoured if the Germans continued to do business with Venezeula, and the rest of Colombia as well."

Kollontai then turns to Eckner.

"Herr Kamerad Doktor," she says quietly, "Why is Berlin interested opening such a very fresh wound? Let Burgundy lie. Moskva will not support annexation or partition."

There is no situation between Venezeula and Colombia; We have offered our hand to Venezeula, and Brazil jumps at our throats threatening military action. We ask that should the Brazillians attempt any sort of militistic option, the League step forth.

"Still, in my opinion the League should keep nations from simply annexing other nations like this."

"Should they? Even if it is voted as such? You Bolivians have an odd view of Democracy."

"Should they? Even if it is voted as such? You Bolivians have an odd view of Democracy."

"Who is to say they will vote for it, they did not last time."

(ooc: bolivians always had a odd veiw of democracy (there were over 100 coup d' etats historicaly in Bolivia, and (obviuosly) many dictators))

"If the Venezeulan people vote on joining Colombia, than that is what they want and they should be able to do it. I must agree with the colombians on this issue and until such time as Venezeula does not want anything to do with Colombia my nation will have no problem with the unification"

"Who is to say they will vote for it, they did not last time."

(ooc: bolivians always had a odd veiw of democracy (there were over 100 coup d' etats historicaly in Bolivia, and (obviuosly) many dictators))

"No one is saying they will vote for it, thus why there is a vote. Colombia has done much to change their minds however."

"No one is saying they will vote for it, thus why there is a vote. Colombia has done much to change their minds however."

"I am curious to know what you have done for them. Enlighten me."

"While the Germans did much, building Hospitals and the Like, there has been no additional help in these area's for close to two decades. Colombia is now modernizing their hospitals, infrastructure, creating factories and jobs, and we will want to influence further civil rights to the people of Venezeula.

Now it is our turn to ask you, Bolivia. What is it that you have done for ANY nation in South America, other than merely question their government? Colombia has been the only nation in South America to continually offer aide to its neighbors, including Ecuador, Brazil, Venezuela, and yes, even you."

Kollontai raps her knuckles on the table, loudly.

"Gentlemen, please control yourselves.

"There is no mandate here for overturning a plebiscite, and the Union has no intention of allowing such a precedent."

"I am here now because I want a peacefull South American continent, to keep one nation of that continent from being more powerful than the other. That, I belive, will keep South America war-free. Bolivia never sent aid to anyone because we, durring the presidency of the former president Mallea, simply did not have the means to do so. The League gives us this means to do that."

(ooc: who said anything about overturning the plebiscite?)

Dr. Chaves slightly bows to Mrs. Kollontai;

"I apologize, I have let my temper get the best of me."

Turning back to the Bolivian representative, Dr. Chaves straightens his shirt, and speaks calmly but firmly.

"There is no need for Bolivia to even think about worrying over a war starting in northern Latin America, certainly not between Colombia and Venezeula anyway. And how does the League allow you to do that? Are you implying that you plan to use other nations budgets to assist your friends without adding a dime sir?"

Chavez pauses for a drink of water;

"Colombia is all for economic assistance, but it must be equal in all nature. Without equality there can be only arguements."

Dr. Chaves slightly bows to Mrs. Kollontai;

"I apologize, I have let my temper get the best of me."

Turning back to the Bolivian representative, Dr. Chaves straightens his shirt, and speaks calmly but firmly.

"There is no need for Bolivia to even think about worrying over a war starting in northern Latin America, certainly not between Colombia and Venezeula anyway."

Urey replises, "I was just stating what I the policy of the League should be, Dr. Chavez, to keep any one nation from being to powerfull. I was not implying we would do that."

"Senor Urey, I assure you that Moskva desires peace like nothing else. In South America, and the world itself.

"But our purpose here is to prevent war, not democratic process.

"I agree that Colombian expansionism is a cause for concern. Their ambitions to regional domination are both clear and alarming. Have you considered a treaty between your countries setting arms limitations instead, however? Such a discussion might be more profitable than attempting to thwart a powerful neighbor who has the support of one still more powerful."

Husayn Rauf Orbay rose up and gives a short speech on a different topic, the topic was Egypt.

" The Middle Eastern Union Government request that a special election to take place in Anglo-Ottoman Egypt, we request the people of Egypt to be allow to choice for their future. Here is three choices for the people of Egypt to vote on

1. Remain under the Joint of the Anglo-Ottoman Governments
2. Compete and total union with the MEU govt, and the compete withdraw of British garrison and Ottoman garrison units and just allowing Egypt to be a member state within the MEU and allows it to rise its own arm forces for self defense.
3. Compete and totally independent from Both Ottoman and British Governments. The right to choice their own government, Sultanate or Republic it would be up to them.

"I will send that suggestion to my president to review. He will most likely try for it, if he can push the idea through our congress."

Jozua François Naudé arrived at the conference, and quietly took a seat in the section reserved for the British Empire. Seeing himself to be the first delegate from this section to arrive, he decided to sit and observe for a time before making any statements.

To: League of Nations
From: Chilean Foreign Ministry, Santiago, Chile

Please accept the credentials of Joseph DeSanLorenzo as Ambassador to the League of Nations.

The Empire of Nippon, will NOT join the league of nations. And does not recognize the right of the league to enforce its rules upon Nippon.

The principal organs of the League shall consist of the International Congress, the High Council, and the International Court of Justice.

I. Each Constituent State shall be entitled to one Delegate and one Vote in the International Congress. Any Constituent State may propose an amendment or remove one to the charter of League, but this must pass a three-fifths supermajority vote in the Congress. Any Constituent State may bring any issue before the High Council for discussion.
I.1 The International Congress shall have the power to pass binding resolutions as international law.

II. Constituent States have the right to withdraw from the League, and thus from its protections and obligations.
II.1 Membership in the League carries at least an implicit collective security and nonaggression treaty between Members. Any Member that attacks another, regardless of its reasons, shall be considered to have relinquished its Membership in the League and will be regarded as an objective enemy of all the Constituent States.
II.2 All Constituent States foreswear military force as an instrument of debt collection, and annexation of territory and that military force will only be considered legal if undertaken to defend a nations soveriegn national territory, or the soveriegn national territory of an ally.
II.3 All Constituent States further foreswear the practice of providing arms to guerilla and terrorist groups operating against the legally elected government of a soveriegn nation.
II.4 The League and its organs and missions are to be funded by voluntary donations from its Constituent States.

III. A High Council shall be established consisting permanently of the United States of America, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, The Union of Social-Democratic Republics, the Workers’ Republic of Germany, and the Republic of France, along with four altenating members.
III.1 Council members shall be enabled to bring up Resolutions of Censure, Sanctions, Exclusion, and War against other Constituent States which have been found in violation of international law. The violations in question must be sufficently extreme to justify such measures, such as unprovoked aggression against a peaceful state, the negligent or deliberate murder of civilians in a war zone, the use of slaves, or other egregious human rights violations. These laws will be defined in the Charter, or in Resolutions to be passed. It is further proposed that any alleged violation be verified by the International Court before the defendant is considered subject to such Resolutions.
III.2 The Chair of the High Council shall act as chief executive of the League according to the rules of order, and Chairmanship of the High Council shall rotate from session to session.

V. An International Court consisting of nine justices from different countries shall be established to address grievances and disputes between the League and its Constituent States and between individual Constituent States. Judges from Constituent States are to be formally nominated by the Chair of the High Council, and confirmed by a majority vote in the Congress.
V.1 It is proposed that any member of the Congress be able to bring forward a case for the Court to consider, which must be seconded by another member of the High Council and accepted by one Jurist in order to be heard.Any case to be considered by the Court must involve either:
(I) an alleged violation of or question regarding the League main Charter,
(II) an alleged violation of or question regarding the League Charter on Human Rights, or
(III) an alleged violation of or question regarding the Geneva Conventions.
V.2 The Court's jurisdiction shall not be limited to League members --the Court derives its authority from universal right, and shall not be restricted to an internal affairs board of review.
V.3 When a question does involve a League member who is represented on the Court, the member must recuse their Jurist, and the High Council will appoint an alternate Jurist for that case.
V.4 The powers of the Court shall include the authority to censure, fine, and eject members, and to mandate military action against nonmember states. Furthermore, it shall have all the powers and prerogatives of any domestic court with regard to individuals or organizations accused or convicted of violating international law.

Proposed International Charter on Human Rights

I. People are born and remain free and equal in rights. Legal discrimination on the basis of class, race, gender, ethnicity, religion, political ideology, or any other social distinctions shall be prohibited among the Signatories except where the goal of such discrimination can be shown to be the more perfect approximation of equality, as with affirmative action.
II. The aim of all political association is the preservation of the natural and imprescriptible rights of humanity. These rights are life, health, shelter, work, liberty, security, self-determination, and resistance to oppression.
III. The principle of all sovereignty resides essentially in the people. No body nor individual may exercise any authority which does not proceed directly from the people.
IV. Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights. These limits can only be determined by law.
V. Law can only prohibit such actions as are hurtful to society. Nothing may be prevented which is not forbidden by law, and no one may be forced to do anything not provided for by law.
VI. Law is the expression of the general will. Every citizen has a right to participate personally, or through his or her representative, in its foundation. It must be the same for all, whether it protects or punishes. All citizens, being equal in the eyes of the law, are equally eligible to all dignities and to all public positions and occupations, according to their abilities, and without distinction except that of their virtues and talents.
VII. No person shall be accused, arrested, or imprisoned except in the cases and according to the forms prescribed by law. Any one soliciting, transmitting, executing, or causing to be executed, any arbitrary order, shall be punished. But any citizen summoned or arrested in virtue of the law shall submit without delay, as resistance constitutes an offense.
VIII. The law shall provide for such punishments only as are strictly and obviously necessary, and no one shall suffer punishment except it be legally inflicted in virtue of a law passed and promulgated before the commission of the offense.
IX. As all persons are held innocent until they shall have been declared guilty, if arrest shall be deemed indispensable, all harshness not essential to the securing of the prisoner's person shall be severely repressed by law.
X. No one shall be disquieted on account of his or her opinions, including his or her religious or political views, provided their manifestation does not disturb the public order established by law.
XI. The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man. Every citizen may, accordingly, speak, write, and print with freedom, but shall be responsible for such abuses of this freedom as shall be defined by law.
XII. The security of the rights of man and of the citizen requires public military forces. These forces are, therefore, established for the good of all and not for the personal advantage of those to whom they shall be intrusted.
XIII. A common contribution is essential for the maintenance of the public forces and for the cost of administration. This should be equitably distributed among all the citizens in proportion to their means.
XIV. All the citizens have a right to decide, either personally or by their representatives, as to the necessity of the public contribution; to grant this freely; to know to what uses it is put; and to fix the proportion, the mode of assessment and of collection and the duration of the taxes.
XV. Society has the right to require of every public agent an account of his or her administration.
XVI. A society in which the observance of the law is not assured, nor the separation of powers defined, has no constitution at all.

The United States will agree to the League Charter and to the International Charter on Human Rights, but sign each seperately.

ooc
the US government has to get both through the Senate, which might be interesting. However, as the President just won the war, from the American perspective, he might just be able to override Jim Crow. At least this way the US can join the League, even if the Human Rights Charter has difficulties getting through.

If worse comes to worse, Cox can always remind difficult Senators that enforcement is likely to be difficult against the US and failing to pass the treaty will look bad.

Milosovic puts his vote down for the Charter, Yugoslavia agrees with it on every level.

Since the United States actually supports them (a little surprising, I must admit), and we've another vote for it, I'm placing it at the beginning of the Thread, marked "provisional" and "under negotiation." That way they'll be easier to refer to for purposes of fine-tuning.

Deblos votes to support the Charter.

Dr. Ortega has been tapped by his government to participate in, but not sign, the proposed charter. President Corvalan had the day previously made some remark about "violation of sovereignty" as far as Ortega could understand, but the need for an Argentine presence in the League was imperative.

Argentina will not join the league at this time, but requests that Dr. Ortega and members of his staff be permitted to sit in on meetings to represent Argentina's interest to the political body.

hmm..other nations likely to join would be Siam and Vietnam (as it gives them some hopeful protection). Ethopia would surely join as well (it did historically) and I can see the Dutch joining also. Swedes and Swiss probably won't (they didn't historically), although the Danes and Norwegians probably will.

Also Afghanistan. I'll edit the first post.

The Brazilian representative, Prof. Tiago, stood. A short man, his physical stature did not inspire confidence, he seemed nervous in front of the assorted dignitaries at the conference. He spoke heavily accented English to the table in a quiet and controlled tone,

"Brazil wishes peace. Brazil wishes to look after her people. Brazil is not happy about expansion on the continent. We see no imperative on the Colombian part other than to absorb the industrial capacity of Venezuela and the significant raw material and population resources she posseses. What, we ask, is to stop Colombia bribing the citizens with initial goodwill and then exploiting them and bleeding the country dry? A nations head can be turned by short term generosity, but it is hard to turn back ones head when a gun barrel has been placed on its other side. Once Colombia is there, she will simply have extended her own territory and we doubt there will be an option for a return to Venezuelan sovereignty if the population then becomes dissatisfied."

"Brazil is only worried about her own interests as usual. She cares nothing for the people of Venezeula. Why, you do not even speak their language! It is simply out of your hands, and the people of Venezeula can do as they wish. You say Brazil wants peace, but you do not show it.

How many times has Colombia offered the hand of peace, only to have it slapped away by you? Even now, outside of this building, you threaten war with our people! You want peace? The only thing that stopped you from entering the war was a huge blockade. It seems, sir, that your war against your own people has turned you into blood thirsty animals.

To Reiterate; There is no reason why Brazil should be concerning itself in this... Colombia did not concern itself with your own populations dissidence... lest you wish us to?"

"Brazil is only worried about her own interests as usual. She cares nothing for the people of Venezeula. Why, you do not even speak their language! It is simply out of your hands, and the people of Venezeula can do as they wish. You say Brazil wants peace, but you do not show it.

How many times has Colombia offered the hand of peace, only to have it slapped away by you? Even now, outside of this building, you threaten war with our people! You want peace? The only thing that stopped you from entering the war was a huge blockade. It seems, sir, that your war against your own people has turned you into blood thirsty animals.

To Reiterate; There is no reason why Brazil should be concerning itself in this... Colombia did not concern itself with your own populations dissidence... lest you wish us to?"
"Dr. Chavez is being disingenuous, if not actually dishonest, I think," comments Kollontai. "Colombia has threatened Brazil on more than one occasion, and Bogota has 'endorsed' one of Brazil's political parties in their upcoming election, which some may regard as domestic interference - concerning itself with Brazilian 'dissidence,' in a word.

"I find it highly unlikely that the Colombian government is genuinely more concerned with the Venezuelan people than it is with acquiring Venezuelan petroleum. It is commendable that Bogota is trying to buy them rather conquer them, but the results are the same. And the expansionism of a neighboring state is a legitimate concern for nearby nations which might be affected. It is ridiculous of Dr. Chavez to claim otherwise. I am certain Bogota would worry if the United States were to make a state of Costa Rica, or if Brazil were to acquire Peru, or if Bolivia were to merge with Nicaragua.

"Really, Dr. Chavez, you must understand how your neighbors might be concerned - and if you do not, you are scarcely a diplomat of any worth."

Tiago nods at the Union representative.

"Spoken like a true statesman."

He then turns to the Colombian delegate, a new fire is in his eyes and his tone remarkably firmer,

"So because we do not speak Spanish we do not care about another people? On those grounds you should not have entered a war on the continent. And us bloodthirsty animals? Was it not Colombian troops that have been garrisoning the sovereign land of foreign states?"

Tiago composed himself.

"We are dissapointed by this undisguised political bribery from Colombia but what tactics can one expect when a nation depends solely on the favour of the United States. Buy Venezuela with your dirty money, but expect nothing from us. You will find that ideas are less malleable than petrol. Even if you are in favour with the Venezuelans at the moment, expect nothing but hatred when they discover you are present for more than their own well being.

Now, I suggest we, as civilised people, move from this to other points that need attention. Such as world disarmament. A war like this can never happen again. Simply look at the cost in human lives, so many widows and so many lives wrecked. Can we reach a lasting deal on reducing tensions and arms?"

Lansing announces that the US intends to substantially reduce its military forces, not only to peacetime levels but to even lower levels than that for the time being. The US urges other nations to do the same as surely enough money has been spent on military forces the last few years.

ooc
the US is also cutting back from 40 points a turn (wartime) to 12 points a turn, pretty much at once, cancelled 6 aircraft carriers, several cruisers and various garrison and artillery units. It is also cutting its army back from over 40 ground combat units to 5, plus 10 more in reserve.

Tiago nods at the Union representative.

" "So because we do not speak Spanish we do not care about another people? On those grounds you should not have entered a war on the continent. And us bloodthirsty animals? Was it not Colombian troops that have been garrisoning the sovereign land of foreign states?"

Lansing also points out to Tiago that the Colombians suffered over 100,000 casualties defending Italian soil from invasion, an honorable enough mission and perfectly acceptable under the proposed charter of the League of Nations.

Tiago nods at the Union representative.

"Spoken like a true statesman."

Kollontai smiles indulgently at Tiago.

"Stateswoman, thank you."

She turns to Chavez.

"In truth, I mean no insult, Doctor. But mistrust of Colombian intentions is an inevitable consequence of evident Colombian ambitions, and unless you recognize that and work to deal with it the hostility is likely only to grow."

She then turns back to Tiago.

"And speaking of that hostility, Senhor Tiago - while it is natural it is not necessarily productive. Perhaps a conference could be convened of Latin American powers to address the issues of national sovereignty raised by Colombian actions. Otherwise even if conflict is avoided in the case I fear it may only be postponed if certain questions are not resolved to everyone's satisfaction."

Kollontai smiles indulgently at Tiago.

"Stateswoman, thank you."

She turns to Chavez.

"In truth, I mean no insult, Doctor. But mistrust of Colombian intentions is an inevitable consequence of evident Colombian ambitions, and unless you recognize that and work to deal with it the hostility is likely only to grow."

She then turns back to Tiago.

"And speaking of that hostility, Senhor Tiago - while it is natural it is not necessarily productive. Perhaps a conference could be convened of Latin American powers to address the issues of national sovereignty raised by Colombian actions. Otherwise even if conflict is avoided in the case I fear it may only be postponed if certain questions are not resolved to everyone's satisfaction."


I apologise for my earlier remark senorita. When one is in the heat of the moment, one's tongue can often get the better of the head. My tongue is especially passionate, you could say. And might I add senhorita, while I have your attention, that you have the most beautiful eyes outside of Brazil that I have ever seen. I would greately like the pleasure of showing you Brazil, though I fear your beauty may outshine our greatest monuments.

Kollontai's answering smile looks a little wan.

"I divorced my husband and abandoned my son twenty-seven years ago, sir - at half my present age - so I don't think 'senhorita' is an entirely fitting title for me, either. 'Comrade' would be preferable, I think."

OoC: And to prevent misconceptions, although she's pretty enough, she wouldn't win any beauty contests. And she's a famous feminist. She supported Free Love, but not casual sex.

Romania also votes to support the Charter

OOC: Trying to find a suitable person to send a s representative...

"I am inclined to agree with both Brazil and the honorable Ms. Kollanta. Perhaps the countries of Lati nAmerica should convene a private conference to work out their own differences and find common ground."

Bolivia votes to support the charter.

DeSanLorenzo speaks up:
"At this time I am not in a position to sign the charter. It will be sent to the Foreign Ministry in Santiago for consideration, and for debate in Congress".

Romania also votes to support the Charter

OOC: Trying to find a suitable person to send a s representative...
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Romania-related_lists) might help.

"Oh, we understand Ms. Kollontai, but I wouldn't suggest that we are on the same level of distrust as your nation is with the rest of the world. You know, starting two wars and all.

And Colombia threatening Brazil? Of course; It has to be done with the Brazillians themselves threatening war for a simple union of two nations. No one, my Dear Comrade, complained so noisely when you annexed Germany. You may argue that it is not the same, but I assue you it is. Which city makes the decisions in the Union; Moscow or Berlin?"

"Oh, we understand Ms. Kollontai, but I wouldn't suggest that we are on the same level of distrust as your nation is with the rest of the world. You know, starting two wars and all.

And Colombia threatening Brazil? Of course; It has to be done with the Brazillians themselves threatening war for a simple union of two nations. No one, my Dear Comrade, complained so noisely when you annexed Germany. You may argue that it is not the same, but I assue you it is. Which city makes the decisions in the Union; Moscow or Berlin?"
Kollontai's jaw tightens at the Colombian's reference to "starting" two wars.

"Fuck you, Chavez," she says.

Kollontai's answering smile looks a little wan.

"I divorced my husband and abandoned my son twenty-seven years ago, sir - at half my present age - so I don't think 'senhorita' is an entirely fitting title for me, either. 'Comrade' would be preferable, I think."

OoC: And to prevent misconceptions, although she's pretty enough, she wouldn't win any beauty contests. And she's a famous feminist. She supported Free Love, but not casual sex.


ooc: Tiago, although in his 40s, retains mediterrenean good looks and is extremely charming when he gets going :)

IC:

As you wish, comrade, yet you have the sharpness of feature of a much younger woman. One more beautiful, I have never seen. In the next recess I would consider it an honour to accompany you. A woman with your intelligence and beauty however, must not be human. You are a veritable Aphrodite. Please allow me to accompany you when we have dealt with some of the more pressing concerns. Though to me, nothing could be more pressing than spending time in your exquisite presence.



ooc: harharhar.

"Ms Kollontai, please. While I did not mean insult, those are the feelings on our side of this earth. Surely you must understand that?"

ooc: By the way, you guys came on too fast. I would have waited until I signed the treaty THEN brought it up, in order to bind me to League rules. Now I just won't sign.

As you wish, comrade, yet you have the sharpness of feature of a much younger woman. One more beautiful, I have never seen. In the next recess I would consider it an honour to accompany you. A woman with your intelligence and beauty however, must not be human. You are a veritable Aphrodite. Please allow me to accompany you when we have dealt with some of the more pressing concerns. Though to me, nothing could be more pressing than spending time in your exquisite presence.
You are a good player to be playing Brazil, ahahaha.

And on a less important note, Brazil will also agree thus far to the charter.

"Ms Kollontai, please. While I did not mean insult, those are the feelings on our side of this earth. Surely you must understand that?"
Kollontai rises, fuming.

"No, Chavez, I needn't understand what drives you and your government to serve as America's lickspittles. Such a desire is foreign to anyone with pride or self-respect.

"You pathetic little man! How dare you! Your insolence is matched only by your titanic stupidity! I was defending Colombia's rights in this matter, and you respond by insulting me, my country, and our allies! To hell with you, and good riddance."

She sits back down, glaring at Chavez.



ooc: By the way, you guys came on too fast. I would have waited until I signed the treaty THEN brought it up, in order to bind me to League rules. Now I just won't sign.

OoC: How sad. I really liked you, too.

ooc: just a heads up im changheing the name of spain also id like to be entered in as a neutral state...

The Peoples Monarchy of Spain's delegate, Rámon Franco y Bahamonde, entered the room. He saw that they were all voteing on a charter and decided to skim over it. After skimming over the charter he spoke "The Peoples Monarchy of Spain agrees to this charter."

Delbos speaks, a hint of anger in his voice, "Mr. Chavez, this League is for civil discourse and negotiation. We are here to solve problems, not create more. If you are going to insulting I suggest you leave. Miss Kollontai, please calm yourself."

Delbos speaks, a hint of anger in his voice, "Mr. Chavez, this League is for civil discourse and negotiation. We are here to solve problems, not create more. If you are going to insulting I suggest you leave. Miss Kollontai, please calm yourself."
Kollontai snaps out of her glare as suddenly as a spring thunderstorm may vanish before the sun.

"Of course, monsieur. I . . . was overwhelmed."

She looks at Chavez.

"You have my apologies, senor," she says, and though her voice is gentle her eyes remain cold as she continues, "for anything I said that was untrue or unwarranted."

Delbos nods and sits back. "Now, Miss Kollontai, my government has asked me to request assistance from your government in rebuilding our country. Would that be possible?"


http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/archives/dossiers/140ministres.gb/2guer/jpg/delbos.jpg

Yvon Delbos

The Romanian representative, Nicolae Titulescu arrives and sits at the table, nodding to the others. "Good day lady, gentlemen."


OOC: Thanks, VP!

China shall send its greatest diplomat, Lu Hong to the conference to observe it and ascertain whether the conference is in China's best interests or not. However, China is still committed towards the cease-fire one way or another.

Delbos nods and sits back. "Now, Miss Kollontai, my government has asked me to request assistance from your government in rebuilding our country. Would that be possible?"

"Of course, monsieur, Kollontai replies. "It would be impossible for us to do otherwise. The Workers' Republic and the Union are already in the planning phases of the French reconstruction project, and we can begin implementation as soon as the exigencies of the occupation permit it."

"Miss Kolontai, I would like to draw your attention briefly to my earlier question of whether you would join me for coffee at the next recess? I can only hope the coffee will be as pleasant to you as your presence would be to me. I can assure you I will be the perfect gentleman. I don't bite, you know.", said Tiago, flirtatiously and with a gleam of mischief in his eye.

"The Middle Eastern Union agrees to sign the chater and belives this is the world best hope for peace." said Husayn Rauf Orbay

Titulescu looks at at Tiago, frowning. "Mr Tiago, this is a diplomatic meeting, nto a social club. If you wish to ask other members to join you for coffee kindly do so on your on time."

Husayn Rauf Orbay rose up and gives a short speech on a different topic, the topic was Egypt.

" The Middle Eastern Union Government request that a special election to take place in Anglo-Ottoman Egypt, we request the people of Egypt to be allow to choice for their future. Here is three choices for the people of Egypt to vote on

1. Remain under the Joint of the Anglo-Ottoman Governments
2. Compete and total union with the MEU govt, and the compete withdraw of British garrison and Ottoman garrison units and just allowing Egypt to be a member state within the MEU and allows it to rise its own arm forces for self defense.
3. Compete and totally independent from Both Ottoman and British Governments. The right to choice their own government, Sultanate or Republic it would be up to them.
Awaiting a answer on this..

Jozua François Naudé sipped from his glass of water. "With the absence of the British delegate, I can make no binding agreement, though I am sure that the Union will end up signing this document."

South Africa's racial policies were hardly more pronounced than those of the United States, and Naudé decided that white domination of South Africa was reasonably safe, even under this ridiculous international charter.

OOC: Institutionalized racism in 1920s South Africa really wasn't any worse that the RL United States at the same time. The shit won't hit the proverbial fan until about 1948.

Titulescu looks at at Tiago, frowning. "Mr Tiago, this is a diplomatic meeting, nto a social club. If you wish to ask other members to join you for coffee kindly do so on your on time."



"I apologise most fulsomely senhor. And may I compliment you on your suit, it fits you excellently. I must have the details of your tailor, sadly mine has the flu at the moment and what can I say, socialism does not breed luxury, yes? And to the lovely Miss Kolontai, my offer still stands."

Awaiting a answer on this..
Kollontai, after flashing Titulescu a grateful smile, answers, "The Union supports the self-determination of all peoples who have suffered under colonialism. We hope the British will agree to the Ottoman proposal."

"Ah, it appears you are not interested. Well, I will have pleasant memories of you oh Queen of all your sex. Did I ever tell you I was educated in England? Eton college no less! And Cambridge after that! I am afraid I have spent a lot of time back in Brazil since then but the landscape was simply fantastic. And the literature! Ah all the greats, Keats, Shelley, Shakespeare! The list goes on. Keats is my personal favourite, To Autumn, ah such a work of art.

However, I digress. I am leaving for a coffee and perhaps a cigar now, I shall return soon. Does anyone wish to join me? Miss Kolontai?", Seeing the icy stare he recieves Tiago smiles, "Ok, my apologies Miss Kolontai. But you are most radiant when you are angry. Anyone else is free to join me.", flashing one last smile, Tiago rises and retreats to the refreshment area.

Kollontai, after flashing Titulescu a grateful smile, answers, "The Union supports the self-determination of all peoples who have suffered under colonialism. We hope the British will agree to the Ottoman proposal."


Being serious for a moment, so does Brazil, we are with the Ottomans on this.

Naudé quickly scribbles something down, and has an aide pass the note to the Ottoman representative.

"As Afrikaners, we cannot stand idly by as innocents suffer under the boot of imperialism. As Boers, we cannot miss this chance to begin the ending of the world's empires. The Union will support this plebiscite."

Naudé quickly scribbles something down, and has an aide pass the note to the Ottoman representative.

"As Afrikaners, we cannot stand idly by as innocents suffer under the boot of imperialism. As Boers, we cannot miss this chance to begin the ending of the world's empires. The Union will support this plebiscite."
Husayn wrote something back to the Union representative and had one of his aide pass it to him

[I]"The day when the British Empire leaves the Middle East, and Africa would be great day for both our people, we thank you whatever support you can give..maybe you could pressue the Head British Enovy to this league to agree to our terms for plebistcite.[I]

"I would like to make it known to the nations present that King Alfosno XIII and I have decided to create an alliance for the Unaligned nations. The provisional name is the Union of Unaligned Nations. It is an alliance for all neutral nations so that they are protected and have trade benefits with other in their same stance. It is so that neutral nations will not be pressured into joining either the LTA or the Pact. This is a defensive and economic alliance so that nations do not have to be affraid of being neutral and being in the middle of two opposeing forces. This alliance is so that a nations neutrality will have to be respected or the offending nation will recieve retribution on behalf of the UUN."

ooc: apply in my news thread!

Dr Eckener stood.

"The Republic agrees to the wise Turk's plan. Imperialism should end swiftly, so that the peoples of the world may be free."

"The Ottoman's plan has the full support of the French government."

Sweden, although unlikely to join the League, will send a representative to observe. Though he is just observing the first thing he does upon arrival is to make sure that the British representative knows that Sweden fully support and backs the MEU on the Egypt proposal.

Husayn wrote something back to the Union representative and had one of his aide pass it to him

[I]"The day when the British Empire leaves the Middle East, and Africa would be great day for both our people, we thank you whatever support you can give..maybe you could pressue the Head British Enovy to this league to agree to our terms for plebistcite.[I]

ooc
the British player is not available at the moment, but no doubt he would agree that the Kurds, Arabs and Persians would all probably agree that it would also be a great day when the Turks left the Middle East and Africa as well and confined themselves to Turkey. Perhaps an election in the Arab, Kurdish and Persian regions would be just as acceptable as an election in Egypt?

notable personages in recent Egyptian history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuad_I_of_Egypt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbas_II_of_Egypt

ooc
the British player is not available at the moment, but no doubt he would agree that the Kurds, Arabs and Persians would all probably agree that it would also be a great day when the Turks left the Middle East and Africa as well and confined themselves to Turkey. Perhaps an election in the Arab, Kurdish and Persian regions would be just as acceptable as an election in Egypt?
OOC: of couse he would said that as I expect him to, but we are both powers in the middle east, so meh..better to try something then do nothing.

Edit: I don't plan to keep the Ottoman Empire much longer alive, I plan to competely replace as the Middle Eastern Union by 1930.

Also GB, those two people that you talked about, are the ruling family of Ottoman Egypt Government, as the Khedive of Egypt. Since they manger to stay in power in rl and this timeline also.

Francesco Manzoni, the newly appointed Italian delegate to the League, took his seat. The old man was dressed poorly, with ill-fitting and slightly ragged clothes. His hair was a mess, and he generally looked like a slightly well dressed hobo. He hoped his looks had the intended effect. He allowed his peers to look on him for a moment, and he listened in on the conversation about self determination before he stood up and walked to the middle of the floor. He spoke in English, his accent an English upperclass with a slight Italian twang.

"Gentlemen, I myself am one who has not been allowed national self-determination. I am Frencesco Manzoni, and I hail from Capodistria (OOC: Koper), which is now in Yugoslavia. I remember as a boy living under Austro-Hungarian rule, me and my fellow Italians waiting for the day of unification with Italy. Prior to the first Great War, we Italians struck a deal with Austria in order to gain most of our irredented territories back. Capodistria was not one of them, and to this day this land, and other Italian lands, still remain under Austro-Hungarian rule. If we are to speak of national self determination and the destruction of empires, let us poll Italian areas along the border with Yugoslavia if they wish to join Italy.

But why stop there? There are millions living within the Union that were conquered unjustly by the Russians long ago. Let the Poles finally have a voice. The Lithuanians, the Muslims of the east. Let the Kurds under the Turk s speak. Let us hear the Persians. Then let us hear from the Libyans, Indians and a thousand other peoples if they would like independence. It is my guess that most of these would say yes to independence. But many of my peers would not like this." The old man paused, chuckling softly. "I suppose it is because they would not like to be packed into this room like sardines, there would be so many delegates! Let me hear what my peers think."

He strolled out of the floor, but paused halfway. Almost as an afterthought, Francesco added, "I must also add, Italy will be signing the Charter." He then returned to his seat, hoping his ramble would have some positive effect.

"Ah yes let us balkanize the world into ever smaller and smaller states..my nation is offically going to disband itself and fully change itself to the Middle Eastern Union, it is incorrect to said that we don't give a voice to our local people of Persia and Kurdistan, under the Union treaty they will be allow self government and greater said over their own affairs. We thanks our friends of the Union(Russia) for giving us a working model to change our state, these plans to refrom our state will come into effect by 1928. Sir, it is incorrect to state that most states do not listen to their people." reply the MEU envoy.

Vladimir Milosovic stood, "We will accept a poll in our ancestrial lands, since we know it will be defeated.(OOC: Two wars against Italy seems to weed out Italian nationalism in our land) Though i am not sure that the Italians would win a vote in Trieste, but enough of this talk of votes for what nation you belong, I think America would agree that ethnicity is not what a nation is built on! Would south Boston vote on such things and change allegiance to Ireland? I dare to say no, such things are not as important as people make them to be. Yugoslavia, being based off on the system layed down by the American forefathers, holds many of the same ideals in high esteem."

"We hope that nations are able to care for all their citizens so that countries based on ethnicity are not required." Thinking that his point was made clear Milosovic sat down.

(OOC: WWI, those Italians were on the Italian side. WWII, those Italians were on the Pact side. After the historical WWII, great numbers of them left Yugoslavia. We'd need a mod ruling to see if they left yet, but I'm not sure if those Italians are in a majority in either case. Trieste is like 65% Italian, even during A-H rule. It is likely that nothing occurs from a referandum, save for some unimportant border county with 5 people switching sides.)

Francesco stood once again, smiling at his Yugoslavian counterpart. "Let us test your theories, my friend. Let us hold a referandum on all the territory in question, in the spirit of national self determination. Let us draw up uniform voting rules, and we can begin shortly."

He completly ignored the Turk, knowing he couldn't say anything constructive. He had fought against the Turks in the Great War, and he still harbored some anger. If he spoke, he'd likely say something dumb. And Francesco didn't want to be fired.

"Sweden would be more than happy to observe these referandums to ensure that they are condcted in a fair and non biased manner."

"Italy is very appreciative of Sweden's offer to ensure a free and fair vote and accepts it. As far as voting rules go, we propose that everyone 18 and over be allowed to vote, except for soldiers and those who have moved to the area within a set amount of time. That way, we can prevent voters coming from other areas to vote and providing a lop-sided count."

OOC: some information from Wikipedia that may be helpful in deciding what areas do

Trieste - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trieste
Trieste and then some - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory_of_Trieste
Fiume - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijeka

Couldn't find much else about demographics.

Dr Eckener scowled at the scraggly old man. The man presented a good image, but was a disgusting sight.

"Your guise fools no one, scab. Your imperialist notions disgust me. Your plans call for nothing but a promise of constant war. Elimination of borders would be the only way to stall such horrors."

"And are you so idiotic as to not realize that the Capital of the Union is located in WARSAW, led by a FINN. If you wish for democracy, free the Sicilians, the Sardinians, the Lybians. Did not the French give autonomy to the Algerians, before the Americans stormed in and enslaved them?"

"No..." he said to himself, "I apologise for the rude remarks to the Americans. Hostility is not what we need. However, tearing apart our nations is not what we need either. However, the Italian delegate should tidy himself up. He is a disgusting sight in our esteemed institution."

Australia would like to note that it is willing, ready, and eager to sign the peace treaty and also formally applies to join the League of Nations.

Dr. Ortega watches all that has transpired. Aside from a brief discussion with the Brazilian delegate, and a small memo against determination for British territory, he mearly watches the chaos unfold.

Colombia formally withdraws Dr. Chavez from the League of Nations as representative of Colombia. Instead, former President Vincente Sewell will replace him. Colombia also offers a formal apology to the USDR, and Ms Aleksandra Kollontai.

The Chinese delegate, Lu Hong, sat impassively in his seat, listening to the blathering of various delegates over Trieste. Lu Hong maintained his emotionless expression amid a rising tide of frustration within himself. He decided it was time to put a stop to the bickering and do something constructive, thus he spoke.

"As I recall, the Pact sent all Italian civilians towards the Allies at the Po River, which essentially depopulated northern Italy. Thus, Trieste with its ethnically Yugoslav populace had no native Italians to contend with as there are no longer native Italians living in Trieste due to the Pact's efforts.

And you cannot discount the fact that Trieste has a strong Yugoslavian background, similiar to strong French background in New Orleans or strong Irish background in Boston."

The Chinese delegate, Lu Hong, sat impassively in his seat, listening to the blathering of various delegates over Trieste. Lu Hong maintained his emotionless expression amid a rising tide of frustration within himself. He decided it was time to put a stop to the bickering and do something constructive, thus he spoke.

"As I recall, the Pact sent all Italian civilians towards the Allies at the Po River, which essentially depopulated northern Italy. Thus, Trieste with its ethnically Yugoslav populace had no native Italians to contend with as there are no longer native Italians living in Trieste due to the Pact's efforts.

And you cannot discount the fact that Trieste has a strong Yugoslavian background, similiar to strong French background in New Orleans or strong Irish background in Boston."

"We has nations have moved past the days when it was considered ethical to drive out peoples and steal their lands. Whatever the sins of our fathers, we today certainly know better. Trieste is Italian land, and the Italian people who live there deserve to have their homes returned."

OOC: Sorry for my lack of involvement recently, rather too many essays to hand in at school! I am beginning to get things back on track and this should be the start of it

IC: John Pimlott forwards a copy of the charter to the Foreign Office in London for approval. Once the go ahead has been given he signs the charter in the name of Prime Minister Churchill of Great Britain.

the British player is not available at the moment, but no doubt he would agree that the Kurds, Arabs and Persians would all probably agree that it would also be a great day when the Turks left the Middle East and Africa as well and confined themselves to Turkey. Perhaps an election in the Arab, Kurdish and Persian regions would be just as acceptable as an election in Egypt?

Mr Pimlott replies.

"Indeed, why should Britain agree to a vote in the Egyptian region at the behest of the Turkish government when their own government holds power over the people of theKurdish, Arabic and Persian areas. Britain refuses to bow down to such a hypocritical plan and vows to maintain it's usual foreign policy"

OOC: Sorry again for missing this, but can someone please tell me how Africa has been split up?

I can't seem to find any mention of it on this thread, maybe I missed it or is it elsewhere?

"We has nations have moved past the days when it was considered ethical to drive out peoples and steal their lands. Whatever the sins of our fathers, we today certainly know better. Trieste is Italian land, and the Italian people who live there deserve to have their homes returned."
Kollontai answers Lansing.

"Actually, excepting some Habsburg promises made shortly before the Great War, Trst [sic] has not been subject to any Italian government since 1382, when they removed themselves from Venetian suzerainty. While there was a sizable population of Italian-speakers in the city for much of that time, it has been an Austrian port, historically. The Kingdom of Italy has no legal claim to Trst, especially since the fall of the Republic of Venice."

OOC: Sorry again for missing this, but can someone please tell me how Africa has been split up?

I can't seem to find any mention of it on this thread, maybe I missed it or is it elsewhere?

the LTA hasn't resolved it yet.. essentially whoever held what last holds it now, except Ecuador, which handed over Djibouti to British control

Kollontai answers Lansing.

"Actually, excepting some Habsburg promises made shortly before the Great War, Trst [sic] has not been subject to any Italian government since 1382, when they removed themselves from Venetian suzerainty. While there was a sizable population of Italian-speakers in the city for much of that time, it has been an Austrian port, historically. The Kingdom of Italy has no legal claim to Trst, especially since the fall of the Republic of Venice."

"Well, I wouldn't recommend going back to 1382 as far as legal claims go, after all, the Duchy of Muscovy was pretty small then, and for that matter, Britian owned nearly a third of France at that time.

I would think the borders we had in 1925 would be more suitable."

Mr. Vincente Sewell strides in to the conference room, taking the former seat of Dr. Chavez. He says nothing, and merely sips his tea.

OOC: Does anyone know what happened to Trieste when Austria Hungary divided up? I remember I gave Lombardy to Italy, but that's about it. I don't remember giving Trieste up. If anything, I should have it!

And the 1300s are fine for me :p

I can then legalize my claims to Roma!

Vladimir came up with a compromise, "I suggest to stop this bickering over who had what when, that the Italian prodominate areas stay in Italian control, mostly Trieste it's self, and Slav dominated areas cross over to Slovene control, the area just south of Trieste. I doubt anyone can disagree with the thought that people would be better represented by their own country men. Tito has made it clear that we are not here to try and make land expansions like some would after such a war, but are merely looking out for what is best for the people along the border."

Vladimir was sure that the Italians would not mind lossing a few miles of land and a few ten thousand Slovenes, while being able to keep Trieste uncontested.

OOC: This will basically bring about what GB, Vas, and I were thinking of Trieste to the Italians, Pola to me.

Jozua Naudé was elated upon reading the note from Pretoria confirming independence. Smiling warmly at Mr. Pimlott, he quickly spoke up.

"In Egypt, there is no logical argument why an election should not be allowed. However, my colleague Mr. Pimlott is correct when he states that such election would be hypocritical unless the Turks agree to hold similar elections in areas of non-Turkish ethnicity. Either both sides must agree, or there should not be any plebiscite Egypt."

Parthini']OOC: Does anyone know what happened to Trieste when Austria Hungary divided up? I remember I gave Lombardy to Italy, but that's about it. I don't remember giving Trieste up. If anything, I should have it!

And the 1300s are fine for me :p

I can then legalize my claims to Roma!

You gave me nothing. Kordo and I agreed, prior to WWI, to make the border the modern day one. After WWI, you took portions of South Tyrolia (probably almost all of it, I'm not exactly sure).

Francesco scowled at the German delegate. His ploy to create an image of oppressed minority from Yugoslavia, though somewhat true, had no effect on the German.

"I am sorry I am in such a disheveled state, but I would not like to come before you dressed in fine silk suits while my fellow countrymen suffer hardships from this war. It appears as if you wouldn't understand that. As for the Libyans, we'll hold a referandum on independence as soon as Kazakstan is allowed the same thing."

Francesco turned to the Russian.

"Trieste has been under Italian rule since before the first Great War. Perhaps you should return to history class, my friend, as the pre-war agreement with Austria reclaimed most of our irredented land. It is for that reason that we set aside our differences with Austria-Hungary to ally with them."

Francesco turned to the Russian.

"Trieste has been under Italian rule since before the first Great War. Perhaps you should return to history class, my friend, as the pre-war agreement with Austria reclaimed most of our irredented land. It is for that reason that we set aside our differences with Austria-Hungary to ally with them."
Kollontai eyes the old man coldly.

"I am not your 'friend,' Italian," she says. "Nor is your sorry attempt at condescension likely to win my affection. Or my respect.

"In any case your arguments are senseless. If a mere twenty years of Savoy rule are sufficient to disregard over five centuries of Habsburg possession, then there is no discernable reason why one year of Yugoslav rule should be sufficient to overturn twenty years of Italian. The proportions are identical."

She gestures towards Lansing.

"Why the borders of 1925 and not those of 1926, if it is a proximate time you are looking for? The Italian king has no claim over Trst that we are bound to respect. And never has.

"But be that as it may, we have just concluded a war, and have no desire to start one anew. Comrade Milosovic's proposal is more than generous in its concessions to the shoddy form of imperialism you call 'irridentismo.'"

She leans back in her chair, but her eyes still flash.

"And you would do well to keep a more respectful tongue in your head."

Addendum
Both the Union and Comrade Kollontai accept the apologies of the Colombian government and delegation. Comrade Kollontai also reiterates her apology for her exceptionally harsh words during the exchange. It is hoped that further misunderstandings may be avoided in the future.

Delbos sits quietly and observes, chuckling to himself.

Francesco's eyes flashed with anger. This insolent little bitch was telling him to have respect? Telling him Italian rule over Italian land didn't matter?

"I am very sorry, comrade. Perhaps the Hapsburg empire would like control over other parts of northern Italy. After all, the Hapsburgs ruled other portions of northern Italy since before the Kingdom of Italy was founded. And after Italy was united, that Hapsburg empire handed over control of Trieste to Italy. It acknowledged that its claims were no longer valid. It acknowledged that some of its territory was more Italian than Austrian, and it handed it over. Bringing up references to the very empire that gave us Trieste does little to weaken our claim to the city. Now, if you'll excuse me"

Francesco strolled out, deciding he would take a break for lunch. And he would screw up his appearance even more, just to piss off the German delegate. And he would come in with a Russian accent, to piss of the Russians. My, wasn't diplomacy fun?

Kollontai looks at Lansing.

"We will not withdraw from Trst at this capering fool's behest. Mobilize your Armies again if you would displace us."

Military Dispositions
Trieste will be reinforced with two Red Army Armored Cavalry Corps, as well as flak units, coastal batteries, and fighter squadrons. Its industry will be pulled up root and branch and removed to Ljubljana, while explosive charges will be set throughout the harbor in preparation for its destrustion. All road approaches from Italy will be mined, and railways will be blown.

OOC: Just to let you know Italy, while your doing these negotiations and contemplating war with Russia again over Trieste, while I haven't posted them yet, you Italy have taken more casualties than anyone else, somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 million, plus whatever casualties you suffered from the pandemic.

A letter is sent to King Umberto from Premier Kuusinen, informing His Majesty that, although the Yugoslavs and the Union had both agreed to fixing the borders status quo ante bellum (OoC: i.e., giving up Trieste and keeping Pola - did you miss that part Fluff, or are you seriously trying to start the war back up by trying to expand your territory at Yugoslavia's expense?), the insulting, indeed asinine behavior of his delegate to the League of Nations made all negotiations a farce. "It is my belief, Your Majesty," writes Kuusinen, "that your interests are not well-served by that man. It may not be my place to advise you, but I hope you will consider my words."

Lansing was annoyed. The war might end up starting again if things were setteld quickly.

"The Armistice that Russia and Yugoslavia both signed called for the withdrawal of all Pact forces from Italian territory. Do the Yugoslav and Russian government intend to break that armistice? As for Trieste, a lot of Italians died defending that city, which did not fall until the Summer of 1925, hence the suggestion by the United States that we use the border as of the start of 1925. By that time the Yugoslavs had taken Pola, and that border gives each side defensible terrain. I seriously doubt after Trieste fell after nearly 4 months of substained fighting that ANY signficant numbers of civilans, no matter their ethnicity remained in the city, nor was there much to fight over except rubble in any case.

I am informed that Russian troops are moving back into the area. They are after all under the observation of American and Italian troops, so its hardly a secret.

The United States therefore requests that those troops be withdrawn at once, and that both sides accept the proposal as stated."

Privately, the US also delivers a note to the Italian government calling for the recall of the Italian delegate and acceptance of the deal on the table.

It also makes a point to ensure through back channels to the Russians that the US is pressing the Italians to accept what is offered.

Also through back channels, the Russians assure the Americans that the Red Army has no intention of remaining in the area, let alone holding Trieste. The War Department is informed that movements in the zone are simply undertaken with in order to convince Italy of the folly of their position in claiming Yugoslav territory. The proposal currently on the table is acceptable to Moscow, and proposed by the Yugoslavs. The forces will be ordered to stand off the moment the Italians agree. Until then, they are under orders to withdraw back to standing Pact lines if confronted by American or British military units. Washington is invited to send observers to verify this if it so desires.

Edit - And, as Death Moderator, I'll add that Italy's casualties from the Pandemic were only 600,000 dead. A lot more than that got sick, of course.

Delbos voices his support for the Yugoslavian and Russian proposal and also sends a note to Kollontai.

Miss Kollontai,

Do the Italians really think they could have won the war without American and British help? They are more foolish and arrogant then I thought.

Minister Delbos

Edit - And, as Death Moderator, I'll add that Italy's casualties from the Pandemic were only 600,000 dead. A lot more than that got sick, of course.

ooc
speaking of casualties, the death toll and casualties for the war have been posted in the military thread, broken down by country.

Although France and Spain definitely lost, Italy certainly has plenty of reasons to mourn as well.

Former-Prime Minister Bela Kun will represent Hungary in the League of Nations.

I thought Bela Kun got shot.

ooc: Nope, he's alive and kickin'

Britain remains in favour of the deal currently on the table and adds it's support to the American delegate in that the Italians would be well advised to take the current deal and sort out the technicalities at a later date.

In a step towards cooperation Britain puts forwards the proposal that the day hostilities ended (May 1st) is made into an international day of remembrance so that future generations will not forget the reasons this war came about and the bloodshed that it caused. In Britain, the long task of recording confirmed deaths and those missing and presumed dead begins and stone masons are commissioned to create war memorials in every town that lost townsfolk to this war and that their names be entered onto this memorial so that their sacrifice will not be forgotten.

Dr. Eckener scowled as the Italian pig-dog left. He wispered to Kollonai, "He says we did not make sacrafices while his government send millions of young Italian workers to the slaughter! Arrogant bastard. If I were a worse man I would deal with him myself. However, apparently, the Union has been finished, so I leave you my delegation. I will return to Friedrichschafen to prepare for the re-opening of the World Worker's Zeppelin Airline. May I offer you a chance to be the first to ride on your trip back to Warsaw?"

He then spoke to the Floor.

"As you may well know, the Republic and the Union have finialized their plans for eliminating borders among the free nations of this world. Therefore, my services are no longer needed here. I will return to the Zeppelin Headquarters to finalize the plans for the reopening of the World Worker's Zeppelin Airline. However, I would first like to present the offer to each of the nations for allowance of our Airline to make trips to each of your prospective countries. Especially to your nation, Mr. Landsing."

Tiago, returning with a steaming cup of his Brazilian coffee, answered the German, "My nation, I believe, would be interested in commercial zeppelin flights. Would you extend the airline to Brazil?"

The Italian delegate returned from his break, which gave him time to cool down. But then one of his aides handed him a transcript of recent discussions, and a telegram stated that Russian troops were moving back on Trieste. Another telegram from Rome ordered him to accept the Pola and Trieste agreement and return home to be replaced, as there was both Russian and American pressure. It even stated that it was issued by the King himself.

Francesco, in one last act of defiance before he would be forced to retire, decided he would accept the agreement but do so in the most arrogant and defiant way possible. He knew that no one liked him, and so he decided to not bathe before his return. He left his gray hair unkept, and deliberatly purchased a suit that was way too small for him. The Italian then spilt various things on the suit, as well as tear holes in it. Finally, he drank heavily before he returned to the League. That would not only ensure bad breath, but ensure bad behavior.

What Francesco did not notice was that a young aide of his took note of this. His aide, knowing the man, knew what was going on and reported Francesco just as he reached the conference room.

Francesco, walking drunkenly, strolled into the League of Nations. He grabbed delegates and used them for stabilty, but also to annoy them. He purposefully grabbed Kollontai and kissed her, knowing this would be the last time he could piss her off. He'd better make it good.

When he finally made it to the floor, Francesco began his disjointed ramble. His speech was slurred, and his accent went from easily understandable British upper class to almost unintelligable drunken Italian. He even lost his ability to speak in proper English.

"Hello, ladies and gentlemens. I's Francesco, Italian representative. Is that how say? Representative? Yes. Uhh, the...Kingdom? Yes, Kindom of Italia accept agreement of Pola and Trieste. It was on table earlier. It is because Italia does not want war. Because Russians send troops to Trieste to start war. That's what Italia says. Now what I say.

I...hate? Yes, I hate King of Italy. He says I am recalled. I say he should...fuck...himself. I hate Russians more. They hate me. I hate you all too. . ."

With that, the doors to the chamber burst open and two Italian men came into the room. Francesco knew they were going to drag him out. He dropped his pants and mooned the League, knowing he was already fucked. One of the men dragged him out, pants still down, and the other took his place on the floor.

"I am very sorry. Francesco was unstable, and we thought he would do the least harm in this League. We were wrong, and we apologize. King Umberto II personally offers an apology. We do need a replacement, and that replacement is on his way. In the mean time, the local embassy will appoint a man to cover this position."

He purposefully grabbed Kollontai and kissed her, knowing this would be the last time he could piss her off.
I hope he liked being kicked in the balls when this happened.

Dr. Ortega turns to the Colombian delegate as Francesco is escourted out. "Now this, you see, is what diplomacy looks like when the 'honor' and false niceties is stripped bear. I must say, this League is off to a great start."

He's a crazy old bastard, he'd probably enjoy it;) Maybe he's into bondage? LOL

Dr. Ortega turns to the Colombian delegate as Francesco is escourted out. "Now this, you see, is what diplomacy looks like when the 'honor' and false niceties is stripped bear. I must say, this League is off to a great start."

Sewell chuckles, "Yes, what can I say but: Europeans" followed by a small shrug.

Sewell chuckles, "Yes, what can I say but: Europeans" followed by a small shrug.



Tiago nodded knowingly, "They could learn a lot from us you know. Just take life a little slower I think."

Red Army troops withdraw, leisurely, back to the Armistice lines, in accordance with the Yugoslav-Italian agreement.

While May 1st is already an important Socialist holiday, the Union agrees to the British proposal that it be made a day commemorating International Peace, as well.

The Union also proposes that (Dutch) sergeants-at-arms be posted in the League's conference rooms at the Hague, so as to help prevent any further immature and obnoxious displays on the part of unsound delegates.

OOC:What the hell was that?

IC: Dr. Eckener was furious at the actions of the disgusting Italian. He thought to himself, "It's a shame Herr Reichmann isn't here."

"My dear Brazilian friend! We have already planned flights to at least 3 of the major Brazilian Cities. Do not think we forget our friends."

"However, I must leave. All other requests must be sent to Friedreichschafen (aka, TG me) and some of you may be getting requests of your own. Guden Tag."

Britain agrees with the Russian proposal for sergeants-at-arms to be employed to deal with any violations of diplomatic protocol.

John Pimlott is outraged at what has just a: "Is this how respectable gentlemen behave? God, to think that the future of nations, nay, the world lies on the shoulders of such unstable men. A great dishonour has been done to every self respecting person here, I suggest that we get back to the matter of ensuring peace in our time."

Titulescu is outraged by the behavior of the Italian representative. "This...this is highly irregular...I dearly hope the next representitive of the Italian government will be more stable."

With the old delegate now confined to a insane asylum, a new delegate had been called. This time, a more reliable man was chosen as it turned out the League was actually an important post. To make up for the last man, the new delegate, Ercole Verdi, chose to arrive in a fine suit and make no real moves. Except for one.

"Again, I must apologize for my colleague, if I can call him that. Italy agrees that sargeants-at-arms should be used to prevent any unfortunate occurences, such as Francesco, from happening again."

"We also support the idea of having sargeants-at-arms to maintian order." remark the MEU enovy

Milosovic nodded, "I think it is safe to assume that we all agree with the proposal as stated by the MEU envoy(OOC:does he have no name?). Any measure taken to keep that kind of conduct to a minimum is good to me."

OOC: My enovy name is Husayn Rauf Orbay

Delbos makes his agreement with the idea of sargeants-at-arms known.

As does Tiago, who then proceeds to light a cigar.

Titulescu states hsi agreement with the motion.

Ambassador Lu Hong sighed.

"We finally reached an agreement regarding conference security. If only we were so agreeable regarding our post-war situation."

The Constitutional Monarchy of Vietnam has elected to present Le Duc Tho as it's delegate to the League of Nations.
The Constitutional Monarchy also intends to sign both the Charter and the Declaration of Human rights.

(OOC: in signing this treaty will it conflict with the imposed nuetrality of Burgundy otherwise...)

Grand Duchess Hilda will sign this Treaty for the maintainence of world peace.

(OOC: in signing this treaty will it conflict with the imposed nuetrality of Burgundy otherwise...)

Grand Duchess Hilda will sign this Treaty for the maintainence of world peace.
OoC: Well, technically Burgundy is no longer neutral, but part of the LTA (though you can always withdraw - what are they going to do? invade?). But no, it wouldn't be a violation anyway. I've edited the Charter Post to reflect both Vietnam's and Burgundy's signatures.

We need to figure out what to do with Germany's seat on the League High Council. Naturally, the Union would like to keep it. It's not as if Germany and Russia would ever vote against each other anyway. Kollontai will introduce a resolution to allow the Union two seats in all League councils and tribunals, meanwhile tapping possible replacements for the Germans elsewhere. In other words, since I don't expect to keep the German seats, I'm taking nominations for who will replace them in League councils.

The Kingdom of Bulgaria will sign both the Charter and new Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Bulgaria will elect Constanin Mousinilev to represent the Kingdom in the League of Nations.

The Federated States of India send a popular layer, Mohandas K. Gandhi, to represent the Indian people in the League of Nations.

Burgundy will send Karl Schmitz (OOC:made up name, I think being as it's 1932 that field has become open, yes?) as it's delegate

Jozua Naudé hopes that Mr. Ghandi is willing to forgive Pretoria's short-sighted and unfair treatment of both him and all Indians in South Africa in the years up to and immediately following the first Great War. Naudé hopes that India and South Africa may share a future of cooperation and friendship.

OoC: With the Bulgarian signature, six Latin American republics also agree to sign the Charter and Declaration, creating a supermajority and thus making both documents legally binding upon All Nations of the Earth.

OoC: Well, technically Burgundy is no longer neutral, but part of the LTA (though you can always withdraw - what are they going to do? invade?). But no, it wouldn't be a violation anyway. I've edited the Charter Post to reflect both Vietnam's and Burgundy's signatures.

We need to figure out what to do with Germany's seat on the League High Council. Naturally, the Union would like to keep it. It's not as if Germany and Russia would ever vote against each other anyway. Kollontai will introduce a resolution to allow the Union two seats in all League councils and tribunals, meanwhile tapping possible replacements for the Germans elsewhere. In other words, since I don't expect to keep the German seats, I'm taking nominations for who will replace them in League councils.

The United States recommends that Sweden take the German seat as it is traditionally neutral.

OoC: With the Bulgarian signature, six Latin American republics also agree to sign the Charter and Declaration, creating a supermajority and thus making both documents legally binding upon All Nations of the Earth.


OOC: and yet Japan still refuses to sign. And will not submit itself to any of the rules

OOC: and yet Japan still refuses to sign. And will not submit itself to any of the rules
The Charter specifically mentions that it is binding on all nations, not just signatories, and not just members of the League. The Empire of Japan is as subject to international law as much as anyone - probably moreso, since it would be harder to obtain resolutions against a member.

Dr. Ortega expresses his aggreement with the Japanese, and addressing the delegates declairs that Argentina will not recognize the authority of the League in any action taken against either itself or it's allies Japan and New Zion. Argentina has never granted the League it's soverignty, and neither has Japan or Zion (OOC: Which I'm sure I can strong arm into not signing.), and Argentina will defend the right for these nations to determine their own fate, should the League attempt to interfere.

"It is a self evident truth, that governments derive thier power from the people under their protection. While this body clearly has been given juristiction over it's soverign nations, under no circumstances can it claim unilateral authority over those who will not sign its charter: Firstly, it is not the signed nations authority to give, and secondly it is a violation of international law to take.

"You may make what provisos and ammendments you will. You may make whatever treaties you wish. You may write whatever words you wish to write down. But that does not change the facts, and those are that Argentina is NOT subject to the laws and decisions of this body, as it has not consentualy given its soverignty over to this body.

"While your goal of peace and prosperity is admirable, Argentina, and her ally Japan, still do not recognize the legitmacy of this body as being higher than the authority of their respective peoples.

"I appologize if any of you find my words distasteful, or you feel I have misconstrued the nature of your organization. I assure you, that I have intended no such insult to any member nation."

snip

II. Constituent States have the right to withdraw from the League, and thus from its protections and obligations.



OOC: And this means?

Algeria sends Dr. Ahmad Tayseer to represent Algeria at the league

OOC: And this means?
"Obligations" such as those outlined in Article II.1, II.2, and V.3, as well as the "obligation" of sending delegates to League councils and tribunals, and of making voluntary contributions to the League's budget.

You might want to look at Article V.2 of the Charter.

Dr. Ortega expresses his aggreement with the Japanese, and addressing the delegates declairs that Argentina will not recognize the authority of the League in any action taken against either itself or it's allies Japan and New Zion. Argentina has never granted the League it's soverignty, and neither has Japan or Zion (OOC: Which I'm sure I can strong arm into not signing.), and Argentina will defend the right for these nations to determine their own fate, should the League attempt to interfere.

"It is a self evident truth, that governments derive thier power from the people under their protection. While this body clearly has been given juristiction over it's soverign nations, under no circumstances can it claim unilateral authority over those who will not sign its charter: Firstly, it is not the signed nations authority to give, and secondly it is a violation of international law to take.

"You may make what provisos and ammendments you will. You may make whatever treaties you wish. You may write whatever words you wish to write down. But that does not change the facts, and those are that Argentina is NOT subject to the laws and decisions of this body, as it has not consentualy given its soverignty over to this body.

"While your goal of peace and prosperity is admirable, Argentina, and her ally Japan, still do not recognize the legitmacy of this body as being higher than the authority of their respective peoples.

"I appologize if any of you find my words distasteful, or you feel I have misconstrued the nature of your organization. I assure you, that I have intended no such insult to any member nation."
IC
Kollontai looks at Ortega coldly.

"Regardless, sir, of whether you feel Argentina to be bound by the League's authority, Argentina is.

"Non-members do not decide what is and is not a violation of international law - the League decides that. Your consent to the League's authority is not necessary. Nor is your recognition.

"A cutpurse may imagine himself above the law, but his imagination does not make it so. Buenos Aires may choose to disregard the Charter and Declaration as much as it likes. But I assure you there will be consequences to any Argentinean violations."

"Obligations" such as those outlined in Article II.1, II.2, and V.3, as well as the "obligation" of sending delegates to League councils and tribunals, and of making voluntary contributions to the League's budget.

You might want to look at Article V.2 of the Charter.


[


OOC: enforce it, I'll make it worth your while...............

OOC: enforce it, I'll make it worth your while...............
You know as well as I that that's not particularly likely any time soon. I wouldn't make a big deal about it.

OOC:

Just take a look at the real UN and the real League of Nations. The UN human rights commission has had such awesome nations as Sudan, China, and Cuba sit on it. If this League is twice as effective as the real world bodies, it'll suck balls.

Dr. Ortega: I hope that you are not implying that Buenos Aires is the international equivalent of a common thief. Your effort is commendable, but I once again must respond that Argentina's soverignty is not yours to take: to use your metaphore, gang of thugs may tell a honest man that he must pay "protection" money... and they may even back it up with threat of force. Does that mean the man is not wronged? His authority as a citizen of the world is violated becuase some baser men have banded together for their own gain.

Argentina will accept or deny any honest request of this body based solely on the requests merrits, not because you have the numbers or the guns. I am possitive that if the League is sane enough, you will have no problems with Argentina. Yet, we will not pretend that you are capable of subverting national soverignty for us or our allies.

OOC: I doubt you'll ever even have to pass any resolutions reguarding Argentina... But my government has historically been isolationist, and as usual anything treaty wise that comes out of the US is viewed with GREAT scepticism.

OOC: I doubt you'll ever even have to pass any resolutions reguarding Argentina... But my government has historically been isolationist, and as usual anything treaty wise that comes out of the US is viewed with GREAT scepticism.

ooc
thats all well and good, but Argentina in this time line has not had a reason to distrust the US. At least less reason to mistrust the US as compared to say Brazil, Russia, Germany or France. What specific justification are you using at this point? The Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine didn't happen, the Pan American Treaty was designed to keep outsiders out of the hemisphere, and the US has never even exchanged harsh words with Argentina.

OOC: America did dismiss Argentina's peace proposal which would have ended the war with the same affect minus about a million dead. A major reason a lot of us socialist nations have better relations with Argentina than with america.

ooc
thats all well and good, but Argentina in this time line has not had a reason to distrust the US. At least less reason to mistrust the US as compared to say Brazil, Russia, Germany or France. What specific justification are you using at this point? The Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine didn't happen, the Pan American Treaty was designed to keep outsiders out of the hemisphere, and the US has never even exchanged harsh words with Argentina.


OOC: ::cough:: Uruaguay ::cough::

have you ever thought that Argentina doesn't want to fall in line with the US (which wrote and proposed the Pan American treaty), Hasn't liked US actions elsewhere in the world ::cough:: Venezuala ::cough:: . And Also has very close ties with a nation that has chilly relations with the US. (i.e. me) And generally doesn't like the US, you can hate a person for what they have done, even if it hasn't been done to you.

And besides, you can't blame him for being consistent, he's played Argentina very Anti-US since the very beginning. Get it through your head that not ALL of Latin America cares for the USA.

Us, for example. Latin American isn't going to fall into the US's lap as easy as Colombia did.

OOC: See the points listed above from Japan. I have been consistant since the begining with my distrust of the US. In real life, Argentina was paranoid that the US was planning on making Latin America into a US lake since the 1890s, and only the visit of Theodore Rossevelt's Secretary of State (His name escapes me at the moment) to Argentina in 1904 helped to sooth the anti-US feelings.

I feel the need to add one more: The US demanding that Latin America change their economies to support the US/Colombian forces during the Second Great War. (I know it wasn't a demand... but clearly the Latin American nations didn't acti in their own vested interests, which leads me to believe they "knew what was good for them") These were neutral nations, with no vested interest in the war, that volentarilly shifted production away from domestic matters (which thier people would have wanted) to military matters in support of a foriegn nation.

I won't even bring up the various meetings which led to the real life Pan American Treaty, where Argentina was outright hostile to the idea.

The point remains: Argentina is not on bad terms with the US, but does not like the US messing around in "her" Continent. Argentina has consistently come down on the side of self determination and fear of US hegemony that I should not even have to argue this point.

And as for the harse words... A naval flotilla off the coast of Uruguay is worth a thousand "Don't invade or we'll be forced to pre-empt the French invasion so Europeans don't land even after we aggreed only to verbally oppose your invasion" (How's that for a run on sentence?)

As usual, if you have any further arguements, please TG them to me to avoid cluttering the thread with OOC. I will be more than happy to debate the finer points of Argentinian and US foreign and internal affairs, it's what I do every day after all.

Snip.
This conversation should probably move to the Main Thread, but I will say that Argentina's attitudes towards the US don't strike me as too far out there, as a Moderator. Latin Americans will generally feel ambivalent at best towards their extremely powerful northern neighbor.

And before anyone accuses me of letting my self-interest skew my judgment, I will direct their attention to the various crazinesses and war-scares (and wars) and negotiating I've gone through in the Balkans, trying to keep them safe for Russian interests. The Bulgarians are still wary of me (but fortunately irrelevant). The Asians are also pretty fiercely independent-minded, from a Russian perspective.

And as for my German half, don't get me started on the Belgians and Burgundians and the former Danes. And the damn Italians.

Us, for example. Latin American isn't going to fall into the US's lap as easy as Colombia did.

Was that OOC or IC?

The Union proposes a Resolution recognizing the results of the Vietnamese plebiscite (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9984258&postcount=28) abolishing the monarchy and authorizing punitive measures to be undertaken against any foreign power which interferes with the internal workings of Vietnamese democracy.

Milosovic nodded, "Yugoslavia seconds such a resolution, the free must remain free from tyranny. Yugoslavia has already established relations with Vietnam, and will not leave it to the wolves in their time of happiness!"

Mr. Delbos stands, "France will support this motion. It is only right after our country used them as a colony for so many years."

Mr Pimlott supports the motion put forwards by Ms. Kollontai and believes that it is in the interests of world security.

Mr Pimlott also enquires as to whether Burma might also benefit from such an arrangement and whether they should be invited into the League as they are now a sovereign nation. (If this is already so then ignore this section)

OOC: VP i'd be grateful if you could change the following on the front page:

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland --> UK of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Dominion of Canada --> The Constitutional Monarchy of Canada
Dominion of Australia and New Zealand --> change to:The Commonwealth of Australia and the Constitutional Monarchy of New Zealand (as two seperate entries)

And add:

Republic of Ireland

It's not a major issue, but i'd appreciate if you'd change a few things for me just to show that the above nations are completely sovereign and out of UK control.

OOC: Wait I thought Burma was still part of the English Emprie, is it not?

Ercole Verdi broke his accustomed silence, seeing that support for the resolution was growing. After his predecessor's performance, Ercole needed to be non-controversial. "Italy supports this resolution."

OOC: Wait I thought Burma was still part of the English Emprie, is it not?

My thoughts as well.

Seeing that the LTA kicked me out of Burma before any talks about Burmese independence took place, and GB said that Burma reverted back to British control. So I'm under the assumption that Burma is still a British colony like the colonies in Africa.


In addition, China isn't a signatory of the League of Nations. However, it has recieved a secret request from the Vietnamese Emperor, Bao Dai, for assistance.

Here...

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9988992&postcount=135

Keep in mind, nobody else knows about this IC'ly, and China doesn't have an ambassador to the League of Nations as it didn't sign it (like Japan and Argentina).

If GB said so then I may just be getting confused. VP said something on the foreign possessions thread about Burma being independent, but if there's a choice i'll keep Burma.

Jozua Naude states that South Africa will support the resolution.

It's not a major issue, but i'd appreciate if you'd change a few things for me just to show that the above nations are completely sovereign and out of UK control.
Done.

I'm really not sure about Burmese independence. The Union, I know, would've wanted it, but not to the extent of bothering too much about it. I believe Burma was de facto returned to Britain.

As for Vietnamese democracy, that's

Soviet Union
Yugoslavia
France
Great Britain
Italy
South Africa

For, along with NPCs who will always vote our way, such as

Czechoslovakia
Denmark
Canada
New Zealand

Along with liberal and nationalist neutrals like

Netherlands
Iceland
Ireland

So, we can assume at least 13 votes For the Resolution Concerning Vietnamese Democracy (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9991886&postcount=179), and more if the Americans and their dependencies end up supporting it.

9 more votes are needed for it to pass.

OOC:

Actually there isn't a democracy per-se right now in Vietnam even though China and France granted Vietnam independence, as Ato-Sara is RP'ing a new civil war of sorts between Emperor Bao Dai and the socialists. I think Bao Dai is pro-democracy, but I may be wrong though.

This will be quite a sticky issue- Democracy or Socialism for Vietnam.

OOC:

Actually there isn't a democracy per-se right now in Vietnam even though China and France granted Vietnam independence, as Ato-Sara is RP'ing a new civil war of sorts between Emperor Bao Dai and the socialists. I think Bao Dai is pro-democracy, but I may be wrong though.

This will be quite a sticky issue- Democracy or Socialism for Vietnam.
Yeah, you're wrong. Socialism in Vietnam is democracy - Bao Dai is against both.

Also, I thought China had signed the Charter and Declaration.

Yeah, you're wrong. Socialism in Vietnam is democracy - Bao Dai is against both.

Also, I thought China had signed the Charter and Declaration.

Actually, China didn't sign as it has little faith in the League of Nations especially after "hearing" about its supposed "force Charter upon non-signatories" through back channels and from Argentina. Another reason why China is hesistant on signing the Charter because of what happened to the Washington Naval Treaty. Despite these, China does agree and most likely will adhere to the human rights issues addressed in the charter.

The only issue of the charter that China does not agree with is enforcing the charter upon non-signatory nations. China disagrees with this especially because it fought off Westerner oppression, laws, traditions, etc. during the Boxer Rebellion and does not desire to see a repeat of that.

Also, some people IC'ly may view socialism as anti-democratic due to communism. People in RL made this mistake quite a lot, so it should stand to reason that these same misconceptions will probably cause problems IC'ly.

OOC: The only reason people in RL make that mistake is because the only Communist (sorta) countries were totalitarian. That hasn't been the case at all in this world. Every single communist or socialist country has elections and is fully, even more so than some so-called democratic countries, democratic, in all respects. Therefore, I, and I believe VP and the other commies here will agree, that any reference to communists being non-democratic will be treated as a statement from an unlearned thug.

Parthini']OOC: The only reason people in RL make that mistake is because the only Communist (sorta) countries were totalitarian. That hasn't been the case at all in this world. Every single communist or socialist country has elections and is fully, even more so than some so-called democratic countries, democratic, in all respects. Therefore, I, and I believe VP and the other commies here will agree, that any reference to communists being non-democratic will be treated as a statement from an unlearned thug.

Point taken.

Although, the US in this timeline is still anti-socialist / anti-communist, as well as some upcoming powers like the African nations. Problems and "Socialism = bad!" mentality can still occur, but from these sources instead of totalitarian communist states.

OOC: Oh yeah. I can totally see how the Kapitalizt Swine-pigs would be afraid to lose their grip on the chains of corporate slavery. That's understandable. Just remember that we're good ol' fashioned democracies too :D

OOC: Vive le Revolution!!!:D

VP is right Nyugen Ai Quoc and his righteous socialist crusader are freeing the country from the Imperialist overlord and his evil capatalist advisors... at least that what the Vietnamese government propaganda says....

Ahem, as for civil war in Vietnam maybe, but not right now if i can avoid it... [Ominous prediction] in the near future though..... [/Ominous prediction]

Anyways....
IC:

Vietnamese delegate Le Duc Tho thanks our comrades in the Union for thinking of our needs in this time of national political uncertainty, but assures the league that everything is under control in Vietnam.

Parthini']OOC: Oh yeah. I can totally see how the Kapitalizt Swine-pigs would be afraid to lose their grip on the chains of corporate slavery. That's understandable. Just remember that we're good ol' fashioned democracies too :D


Swine Pigs

I believe you mean Swine-Hound


;-)

Swine Pigs

I believe you mean Swine-Hound


;-)
My comrade means whatever he says he means, Swine Pig.

Regarding Article V of the League Charter, I thought I'd take this opportunity to reiterate, that the Charter was originally put forth for debate. I, for one, didn't expect that provision to stand unmodified, and was very surpirsed when it did.

More importantly, the Charter specifically mentions that any of its provisions can be amended by League members. Meaning that any League Member can say, at any time, "I don't like this Article V business! We should change the language to strengthen protections for national sovereignty!" Probably the entire LTA would vote in favor of that motion. Instead of doing something like that, though, you "unaligned" guys are getting all antagonistic and paranoid and are very possibly about to cause The Next War.

That might be your intention, for all I know. But it'd be just as well if we cleared the air about it.

Vile Dog Hounds.

OOC: ::Evil Laughter:: I don't know what you're talking about. We certainly don't believe that the League of Nations is an evil entity controlled by "The Man" and are positioning ourselves to drive the evil ones from the earth.

I have no alterier (sp) motives, to be honest. I just don't believe that the way Argentina has been played, that it would sign. I also believe that China and Japan would be hesitant. Japan, because it doesn't recieve a veto, China for about the same reason, and the lack of representation due to it's size.

And I'd be really, really amused if the Pact and the LTA band together to go after the brash group of upstarts. After all, we only have Pacific intentions.

My comrade means whatever he says he means, Swine Pig.

Regarding Article V of the League Charter, I thought I'd take this opportunity to reiterate, that the Charter was originally put forth for debate. I, for one, didn't expect that provision to stand unmodified, and was very surpirsed when it did.

More importantly, the Charter specifically mentions that any of its provisions can be amended by League members. Meaning that any League Member can say, at any time, "I don't like this Article V business! We should change the language to strengthen protections for national sovereignty!" Probably the entire LTA would vote in favor of that motion. Instead of doing something like that, though, you "unaligned" guys are getting all antagonistic and paranoid and are very possibly about to cause The Next War.

That might be your intention, for all I know. But it'd be just as well if we cleared the air about it.

Vile Dog Hounds.


OOC: I've been adding up the population of the signatories of the League of Nations.

And then adding up the population of the nations that have refused to sign.

so far with the data Vas has posted on population


Signatories Combined population
556m (incomplete, but made it through all of the big PC's)

Anti-Signatories Combined Population
(China, Japan, Argentina, MEU(he's told me in AIM)
And its topping out over 600m


Greater number of nations yes, but not representive of the world Populations Desires. Because isn't that what the league is about?


OOC: I have no intention of causing the next war, but lets just say it gets under my skin a little bit when Non-Signatorie nations are stripped of their Soveirgnty.

OOC: I have no intention of causing the next war, but lets just say it gets under my skin a little bit when Non-Signatorie nations are stripped of their Soveirgnty.
My point is that it's easy to change. Or at least it would be if you weren't so bull-headed.

My point is that it's easy to change. Or at least it would be if you weren't so bull-headed.

If i wasn't bullheaded than i wouldn't be me. You should know this by now :-p

If i wasn't bullheaded than i wouldn't be me. You should know this by now :-p
Touché.

More importantly, the Charter specifically mentions that any of its provisions can be amended by League members. Meaning that any League Member can say, at any time, "I don't like this Article V business! We should change the language to strengthen protections for national sovereignty!" Probably the entire LTA would vote in favor of that motion.

OOC: Well, in that case, let's give that a shot and see what happens. BTW, I noticed you didn't add Italy to page for signing the charter and human rights thing. I thought I signed that a while ago. Doesn't really matter, though.

IC:

Ercole Verdi, the Italian representative, decided that he would try something a little bolder. Considering that it didn't involve expanding territory or the like, it probably wouldn't generate all that much controversy. And besides, if he was succesful, he might cause some other nations to join the League. Who knew? He recorded a copy of the Article and wrote his modified version on another sheet of paper. He took them with him.

Ercole marched to the floor of the League, collecting his thoughts along the way. When he spoke, he spoke in a midly accented English that was still very understandable. "Hello there. What Italy has to propose today is rather simple--a mofication to Article V, sections 2 and 4 of the Charter. They currently read as follows:

'V.2 The Court's jurisdiction shall not be limited to League members - the Court derives its authority from universal right, and shall not be restricted to an internal affairs board of review.

V.4 The powers of the Court shall include the authority to censure, fine, and eject members, and to mandate military action against nonmember states. Furthermore, it shall have all the powers and prerogatives of any domestic court with regard to individuals or organizations accused or convicted of violating international law.'

Italy feels that this is a violation of national sovereignty and that the wording should be changed to the following, including a new section:

'V.2 The Court's jurisdiction shall be limited to League member states, deriving its authority from a voluntary compact made by joining the League.

V.4 The powers of the Court shall include the authority to censure, fine, and eject members, and to mandate economic action against nonmember states. Furthermore, it shall have all the powers and prerogatives of any domestic court with regard to individuals or organizations accused or convicted of violating the League charter or national sovereignty.

V.5 National sovereignty is defined as the right to form an independent government and maintain laws. No nation or organization may interfere with another nation's sovereignty unless it is a voluntary compact between the people, or representatives of the people, of the involved parties.'

This is still open for modification, and we hope that the world also feels it must protect national sovereignty."

Thank you. The Union couldn't do it, because, of course, we'll probably vote against it, but I expect we'll be in the minority.

Naudé listened quietly while the Italian outlined his proposed changes. The Union of South Africa was a strong defendant of national sovereignty, and Jozua was no exception.

"I support my colleague's proposition, specifically the changes to sections 2 and 4. While the League may represent what is held to be international law, such as it is, we cannot claim to exert authority over nations that do not recognize this body as having such authority. The proposed fifth section is also appropriate, I feel, in order to prevent the League from exerting undue influence on soverien nations."

NPCs voting in favor of the Italian Amendment:
Canada
Ecuador
Portugal
Morocco
Netherlands
Nicaragua
Costa Rica
Honduras
El Salvador
Guatemala
Paraguay
Iceland
Virgin Islands

11 more votes are needed, besides the Italians and South Africans.

Dr. Tayseer rose, "Algeria also supports the respectable Italian delegates proposal to respect the rightful national sovereignty of nations and the limiting of actions to the imposition of economic sanctions and condemnation of actions"

Mr Pimlott puts his signature to Mr. Verdi's proposal. Britain feels strongly about National Sovereignity and that this league's direct influence cannot control non-member nations but that it should be allowed to influence them indirectly, for example by economic embargoes by member states against the offending nation.

Le Duc Tho announces that Viet Nam will support the Italian amendment.

26 votes are needed to pass. 8 votes are needed (pretty much all players, too - all the NPCs who would vote in favor of it have done so already).

PCs voting in favor of the proposed Amendment - 5
Italy
South Africa
Vietnam
Great Britain
Algeria

NPCs voting in favor of the proposed Amendment - 13
Canada
Ecuador
Portugal
Morocco
Netherlands
Nicaragua
Costa Rica
Honduras
El Salvador
Guatemala
Paraguay
Iceland
Virgin Islands

PCs abstaining - 1
Soviet Union

NPCs abstaining - 1
Czechoslovakia

Milosovic, seeing that these amendments will just cause more wars, declines to vote for the amendment.

Delbos votes in support of the measure but notes he would like to propose a further change to the wording.

"V.5 is currently as follows: 'V.5 National sovereignty is defined as the right to form an independent government and maintain laws. No nation or organization may interfere with another nation's sovereignty unless it is a voluntary compact between the people, or representatives of the people, of the involved parties.'

I would like to propose that in addition, the following be added: Soverignty is also defined as the right to decide the country's own foriegn policy. No nation may prevent any other from making treaties or trade agreements with another nation."

Verdi turned toward his French colleague. "Italy feels that we should vote on the original ammendment, but put the French ammendment of the ammendment to vote if the original ammendment passes. Italy puts its support behind the French ammendment, however."

26 votes are needed to pass. 7 votes are needed (pretty much all players, too - all the NPCs who would vote in favor of it have done so already).

PCs voting in favor of the proposed Amendment - 6
Italy
South Africa
Vietnam
Great Britain
Algeria
France

NPCs voting in favor of the proposed Amendment - 13
Canada
Ecuador
Portugal
Morocco
Netherlands
Nicaragua
Costa Rica
Honduras
El Salvador
Guatemala
Paraguay
Iceland
Virgin Islands

PCs abstaining - 2
Soviet Union
Yugoslavia

NPCs abstaining - 1
Czechoslovakia

French Addendum
In favor:
France
Italy

South Africa will support the French addendum if the amendment passes.

Viet Nam also supports the french suggestion.

Burgundy votes in favour of the amendment.

26 votes are needed to pass. 6 more votes are needed (pretty much all players, too - all the NPCs who would vote in favor of it have done so already).

PCs voting in favor of the proposed Amendment - 7
Italy
South Africa
Vietnam
Great Britain
Algeria
France
Burgundy

NPCs voting in favor of the proposed Amendment - 13
Canada
Ecuador
Portugal
Morocco
Netherlands
Nicaragua
Costa Rica
Honduras
El Salvador
Guatemala
Paraguay
Iceland
Virgin Islands

PCs abstaining - 2
Soviet Union
Yugoslavia

NPCs abstaining - 1
Czechoslovakia

French Addendum
In favor:
France
Italy
South Africa
Vietnam

The Middle Eastern Union will vote in favor.

China would vote in favor, but it cannot seeing that it is not a League of Nations signatory due to the very nature of the original resolution refusing to acknowledge national sovereignty, something China takes to heart after the Boxer Rebellion.

China would vote in favor, but it cannot seeing that it is not a League of Nations signatory due to the very nature of the original resolution refusing to acknowledge national sovereignty, something China takes to heart after the Boxer Rebellion.
Don't even try to pull this. China was a member, from the beginning. You withdrew just, like, yesterday. If you had objected to the language you could have said something before the Charter was ratified. You could've read it, for instance, or listened to me the six times I said "if ahyone wants to change anything, now would be a good time."

Don't blame anyone else for your own total confusion.

And speaking of confusion:
Sweden is disgusted by this new ammendment. Sweden opted not to join the League for the simple reason that we want to stay out of the bickering that goes on in the world that has caused two global wars in barely two decades time but now this organization is saying it has the power to impose its will over Sweden and other nonmember states? Although, Sweden is ashamed at all of the members of the League, especially Italy, a nation that should have learned more than any other by now, no action shall be taken...for now.
What, exactly, are you talking about? The original (Russian) language of the Charter says that the League has authority over non-members. The Italian amendment weakens that.

OOC: Wow do i feel like an idiot now, I haven't seen this thread for a while so I just skimmed the last few pages now and completely misread Italies post.

OOC: Wow do i feel like an idiot now, I haven't seen this thread for a while so I just skimmed the last few pages now and completely misread Italies post.

Meh, I've done it before. Don't really matter.

OOC: Wow do i feel like an idiot now, I haven't seen this thread for a while so I just skimmed the last few pages now and completely misread Italies post.
Oi. See, my ISP has been flipping out all day. It makes me even more irritable than usual.

It is frustrating, though, that only a couple people (and non-Members, at that) caught on to the controversy I embedded in the Charter. It was supposed to engender debate prior to ratification (which would have been interesting), rather than a full-blown crisis afterwards (which is just annoying). I mean, it bugs me that everyone (well, Sharina) is acting all "surprised" by Article V. You clowns (Sharina) could've read it any time. I left it up there for like two freakin' weeks before I finally said it was ratified.

Well, to be honest, my delegate, Lu Hong, attended the Hague Peace Talks and engaged in diplomacy there to put an end to World War 2 and starting discussions about a post-war era. I agreed to the terms for peace in Hague Peace Talks, and China also sent a delegate to observe the League of Nations to see whether it would be a viable organization to participate in, especially after the whole Washington Naval Treaty debacle. I never said "China thereby affixes its signature upon the League of Nations Treaty".

I challenge you to find a post actually saying that I RP'ed China affixing its signature upon the League of Nations and becoming a member. If you can find a post or proof that I actually signed the charter (such as "Emperor Guozu thereby affixes his Imperial Signature upon the League of Nations, thus declaring China to be a member and therefore bound by the laws and obligations of the League of Nations"), then I shall withdraw my statement that China isn't a member of the League of Nations and then RP China as being a member.

The closest thing that China comes to agreeing with the League of Nations is human rights. No slavery, genocide, prejudice, POW treatment, etc. But adhering to these points don't necessarily make China a League of Nations member outright. For instance, Nation X can adopt similiar policies to a group of nations in an alliance or coalition, but that doesn't necessarily make Nation X a member of that particular alliance or coalition.

China signed the Hague Treaty which automatically made it a member.

China didn't need to sign the Charter. Not all member states were required to sign it in order for it to become binding, as (again) I specifically mentioned several times. Only three-fifths of the members were required to sign in order for the Charter to take effect.

China signed the Hague Treaty which automatically made it a member.

China didn't need to sign the Charter. Not all member states were required to sign it in order for it to become binding, as (again) I specifically mentioned several times. Only three-fifths of the members were required to sign in order for the Charter to take effect.

Oh. I didn't know signing the Hague Treaty automatically made me a member of the League of Nations.

Besides, whenever I see an extra long fancy document, my eyes glaze over at times. But you could construe that China's surprise regarding that "override national sovereignty" issue due to China's inexperience in large Westerner type of organizations as China has only been involved in one previously- the failed Washington Naval Treaty.

OOC: sorry i havent been paying as much attention to this thread as I should

IC: Australia's ambassador to the League is William Birdwood, and he votes in favor of both the Italian and French amendments.

Done.

I'm really not sure about Burmese independence. The Union, I know, would've wanted it, but not to the extent of bothering too much about it. I believe Burma was de facto returned to Britain.

As for Vietnamese democracy, that's

Soviet Union
Yugoslavia
France
Great Britain
Italy
South Africa

For, along with NPCs who will always vote our way, such as

Czechoslovakia
Denmark
Canada
New Zealand

Along with liberal and nationalist neutrals like

Netherlands
Iceland
Ireland

So, we can assume at least 13 votes For the Resolution Concerning Vietnamese Democracy (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9991886&postcount=179), and more if the Americans and their dependencies end up supporting it.

9 more votes are needed for it to pass.


Australian and Canadian amphibious forces took Burma back in 1926 in order to secure that flank during the fighting that destroyed the Chinese invasion force. Vietnam gained independence during the war.

The US would have voted in favor of both amendments proposed, and is generally supportive of the League in principal.

Australian and Canadian amphibious forces took Burma back in 1926 in order to secure that flank during the fighting that destroyed the Chinese invasion force. Vietnam gained independence during the war.

The US would have voted in favor of both amendments proposed, and is generally supportive of the League in principal.
I know about Vietnamese independence - the Resolution concerning Vietnamese democracy refers to something else that happened while you were away (Bao Dai was deposed by the legislature, there may be a civil war).

I know about Vietnamese independence - the Resolution concerning Vietnamese democracy refers to something else that happened while you were away (Bao Dai was deposed by the legislature, there may be a civil war).

hmm... send me a link on that (I need to examine the situation as war mod)

It's in his News/Diplomatic Thread. Nothing's happened so far beyond a secret message sent by Bao Dai to China. It may or may not go any further.

It's in his News/Diplomatic Thread. Nothing's happened so far beyond a secret message sent by Bao Dai to China. It may or may not go any further.

popular support for Bao Dai will be limited.. he was historically viewed as a French puppet, and stepped down in favor of a republic (being a realist)

Exactly. I figured it'd be an uncontroversial motion in the League. I mean, who likes Bao Dai?

OOC:

This presents an unique situation for China.

On one hand, China wants to preserve imperial families in the world, like its own as well as the Korean, Japanese, and Vietnamese. If the imperial families keep falling apart- suppose Vietnamese one falls, then whose family is next to "die" or dissolve? China? Japan? Korea? Thus, my Guozu's family's fear of becoming obsolete and ending the multi-thousand year heritage of China having Emperors and imperial royalty.

On the other hand, if China goes ahead and help Bao Dai, then it probably will piss off the Union, something China cannot have at this point in time. However, it may incur favor with France, seeing the whole "French Puppet" thing going on.

Hmm... to weigh my options, to do or not to do? This could be a Vietnam War 30 - 40 years earlier than historically. ;)

Hungary supports the proposed amendments.

Britain brings a potentially dangerous international incident to the League's attention. Regarding the British protectorate of Bhutan. The government made a demand as follows (alongside the British reply):

King dies at age 84! King of Bhutan has died today and with no heirs to throne has been succedded by Army General, Ugndoar Wayngdun. Ugndoar Wayngdun's first announcement as new King is for all foreign troops to pull off and away. Bhutan has claimed the borders with India and China as their own. All troops in Bhutan and on borders must pull off or be shot.


The British government is outraged at this sudden violence perpetuated by the Bhutanese government. Britain has always been kind to it's Bhutanese friends in terms of military protection and economic support and they have looked to their British protectors with fondness and have never before sought such active measures. Bhutan is a free and sovereign nation and has nothing to fear from British involvement in the country.

Britain would prefer to solve this problem diplomatically and suggests that perhaps the League of Nations would provide an ideal forum for this discussion. Meanwhile the Major of the garrison stationed at Thimphu has been informed not to act without orders from the British government and the British ambassador has been withdrawn to the safety of the garrison there.

Britain is willing to withdraw from Bhutan at the prompting of it's new leader but suggests that perhaps a certain neighbour of it may wish to expand it's territory if Britain withdrew military protection from Bhutan. (OOC: cough, China!)

OOC: I am presuming Britain has a small garrison here as it does in the rest of it's protectorates (the definition of a protectorate is to protect the area militarily).

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Britain informs the League that it is seeking a diplomatic result to this matter but seeks the advice of the organisation in resolving a troubling issue such as this. If Britain removes protectorate status then Bhutain will be open to all manner of foreign agression which it may not be able to stand up to on its own.

Titulescu votes in favor of the proposed amendments.

As to the Bhutan situation, he had this to say.

"If the Bhutanese truly wish to see all foreigners withdrawn, than let it be done. However, I am worried about the dictatorial cast the new leader seems to have."

Naudé, after hearing of the Bhutanese demands, decided to speak. "We support full independence for Bhutan, but I assure our British friends that the Union of South Africa will also support any Commonwealth move to protect British and Indian nationals, as well as sovereign Indian territory."

Chile votes for the proposal for Vietnamese democracy.

Chile votes in favor of the Italian proposal.

I guess that the other mods say that China's a member of the League of Nations (albeit unwillingly) I will vote in favor of abolishing / removing the League of Nation's right to interfere with national sovereignty.

I guess that the other mods say that China's a member of the League of Nations (albeit unwillingly) I will vote in favor of abolishing / removing the League of Nation's right to interfere with national sovereignty.

ooc
the treaty that ended The 2nd Great War included as part of the treaty the provesion that China (and everyone else signing the treaty) join the League of Nations. If China did not sign the treaty, then technically China is still at war with the LTA (although a cease fire is in effect). Signing the treaty placed China in the League.

Withdrawing from the League is of course your right.

Bela Kun stands to address the forum for the first time since arriving.

"My fellow members, while I do not approve General Wayngdun’s methods in taking power, it seems clear to myself that however misguided he may be, he only has the best interests of his people and nation in mind.

He desires only freedom from British domination, and it seems that Britain is perhaps merely afraid of losing power in the region, no matter how small. While they claim surprise at the “sudden violence perpetuated by the Bhutanese government” they offer no support for this but General Wayngdun’s rational demand that foreign troops remove themselves from Bhutan’s borders. Britain’s motivation is that of seeking a public ‘stamp of approval’ if you will to continue to bully Bhutan into allowing British protectorate status.

I also wish to remind you that Bhutan’s new leader is a General, and is no doubt quite aware of the military consequences of removing British protectorate status and is willing to take that risk in order to free his people. I also wish to remind all of you that all of Bhutan’s neighbor’s are members of this very League and therefore subject to its rules, and more importantly, its punishments.

I urge you ladies and gentlemen, if you wish to see the Bhutanese people finally set their own path to the future, do not give a carte blanc check to the British government to bully Bhutan into protectorate status. If Bhutan wishes to remain a protectorate it must do so on its own with no outside influence or threats of violence.

Bela Kun stands to address the forum for the first time since arriving.

"My fellow members, while I do not approve General Wayngdun’s methods in taking power, it seems clear to myself that however misguided he may be, he only has the best interests of his people and nation in mind.

He desires only freedom from British domination, and it seems that Britain is perhaps merely afraid of losing power in the region, no matter how small. While they claim surprise at the “sudden violence perpetuated by the Bhutanese government” they offer no support for this but General Wayngdun’s rational demand that foreign troops remove themselves from Bhutan’s borders. Britain’s motivation is that of seeking a public ‘stamp of approval’ if you will to continue to bully Bhutan into allowing British protectorate status.

I also wish to remind you that Bhutan’s new leader is a General, and is no doubt quite aware of the military consequences of removing British protectorate status and is willing to take that risk in order to free his people. I also wish to remind all of you that all of Bhutan’s neighbor’s are members of this very League and therefore subject to its rules, and more importantly, its punishments.

I urge you ladies and gentlemen, if you wish to see the Bhutanese people finally set their own path to the future, do not give a carte blanc check to the British government to bully Bhutan into protectorate status. If Bhutan wishes to remain a protectorate it must do so on its own with no outside influence or threats of violence.
The Union whole-heartedly seconds Comrade Kun's motion, calling on all nations to renounce the extension of colonialism over unconsenting peoples.

Incidentally, the Amendment to Article V has passed.

Milosovic stood after the Russian has sat back down, "Yugoslavia agrees, as we are the representation of the colonies of empires set free, the Ottoman, Austro-Hungarian, and Serbian oppression was cast aside for the common good of the people, we feel that Bhutan deserves the same chance.
We also propose that the League deploy soldiers to the area to maintain the border and keep the peace. Perhaps eastern Russians would be well adapted to the area to act as peacekeepers, or even my own country men who live in a very mountainous nation. Let me not get to far ahead of myself though, first we must address the diplomatic issues before military."

ooc: Just a word of warning that Kun is a little crazy. This means he is a little more extreme in his politics (communist) than the Hungarian Government (Socialists). This means that what he says will not neccessarily line up with what the government says. Actually that could make some intresting RP's.....

Oh, he will also beat your repersentative mercessly with his cane and put them in a coma or possible kill them if they cross him and/or I have nothing else to RP. Sorry I'm learning about pre-civil war US history right now and about how it wasn't uncommon for senators to attack each other. Now whats the name of the most famous incident? This is going to bother me. /rambling

Milosovic stood after the Russian has sat back down, "Yugoslavia agrees, as we are the representation of the colonies of empires set free, the Ottoman, Austro-Hungarian, and Serbian oppression was cast aside for the common good of the people, we feel that Bhutan deserves the same chance.
We also propose that the League deploy soldiers to the area to maintain the border and keep the peace. Perhaps eastern Russians would be well adapted to the area to act as peacekeepers, or even my own country men who live in a very mountainous nation. Let me not get to far ahead of myself though, first we must address the diplomatic issues before military."

The United States delegate (ooc, name to be determined) recommends that the Peruvians and Bolivians would be best suited... they live in lands that have even higher altitudes.

"Ah yes, they would be quite fine, as i have said before my geography knowledge of the America's is not top-notch, i will support such a deployment."