NationStates Jolt Archive

Hey guys, i need alot of help for my aircraft program, the airplane is highly manuverable and very strong by it needs a proper engine. I'm looking to give away basically a contracting program of the equivelent of 50,000 euro(basically means 30,000 to build and design and 20,000 profit to the company or military) to any country to design an engine capable of 100 horsepower (like the Caudron G.3 engine). Please answer any country that would like to participate. I'll be posting the contrators under here

Contractors

Hey guys, i need alot of help for my aircraft program, the airplane is highly manuverable and very strong by it needs a proper engine. I'm looking to give away basically a contracting program of the equivelent of 50,000 euro(basically means 30,000 to build and design and 20,000 profit to the company or military) to any country to design an engine capable of 140 horsepower (i little weaker than the Merlin 1 engine). Please answer any country that would like to participate. I'll be posting the contrators under here

ContractorsOh, come on! Let's can the godmoding, shall we? The Rolls-Royce Merlin I was invented in 1935 for God's sake. What makes you think it was possible to have it available 23 years earlier?!?

If an engine like this could have been built in 1912 or 1913, it would have been. Since it wasn't, it's impossible.

Try the Gnome radial engine (http://www.bleriot.org/docs/Gnome.htm) instead. For the era in question, this was state-of-the-art. Here's more information on the Gnome (http://www.ancientalley.com/ancient/rhinebck/gnome/gnome.htm).

The Blériot XI (http://www.ancientalley.com/ancient/rhinebck/bleriot.htm) was typical of advanced aeroplanes at this time.

The Hanriot (http://www.ancientalley.com/ancient/rhinebck/hanriot.htm) was another advanced aeroplane.

Yet another advanced design - the Henri Farman III (http://www.ohtm.org/farman.html). This won all kinds of racing and flight records.

Here's a Caudron G.3 (http://www.ancientalley.com/ancient/rhinebck/caudron.htm). Very definitely state-of-the-art (came out in 1913).

Sorry, just figured out I did ww2 research LOL nvm

I bet nobody remembers that, 2 weeks ago, me and NO had a dispute about the speed with which the Romanian army can mobilise. I said a week, NO said ten days. Since I didn't have proof to the contrary, I accepted NO's estimate, but, at the same time, I posted the question on a forum about the Romanian army. Finally, the answer has come: I was told the Romanian army mobilised half a million soldiers (15 infantry divisions, 3 infantry brigades, 2 cavalry divisions and one cavalry brigade) in only 4 days! Here is the link to that forum:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=11&t=2378&st=0#entry38296

I bet nobody remembers that, 2 weeks ago, me and NO had a dispute about the speed with which the Romanian army can mobilise. I said a week, NO said ten days. Since I didn't have proof to the contrary, I accepted NO's estimate, but, at the same time, I posted the question on a forum about the Romanian army. Finally, the answer has come: I was told the Romanian army mobilised half a million soldiers (15 infantry divisions, 3 infantry brigades, 2 cavalry divisions and one cavalry brigade) in only 4 days! Here is the link to that forum:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=11&t=2378&st=0#entry38296And how long after that did it take for them to get to the border or for their supply trains to assemble along the frontier?

If you want a 12 day mobilisation advantage - 12 days for 850,000 Romanians to fight the 15-20,000 troops I normally keep along the Transylvanian frontier (a 50:1 advamtage!!!), I suppose I'll have to give it to you. But mark my words: there will be consequences from such a reality. Dire consequences indeed.

I simply can not allow you to be able to launch an all-out surprise attack on Hungary and be in Budapest before I can even get mobilised...

More on this when I return from vacation.

And if you do invade me, I will show you no mercy whatsoever - even if it's the last thing I do.

Hey, I will not invade you; and especially not since you announced you'll be away.

Hey if nobody is going to submit a contracting deal then i'll just buy the Caudron G.3. from France, Bogmihia can you help me with this, you have good ties with the french. Can you help me get the engine plans from their Cauldron G.3.. engine (not the whole plane)? And I will give you 5 of the newest airplanes of Ottoman design (well with Voxios help I made the planes) to do with as you please.

Why don't you just buy one airplane, the best that you want, and then hire an engineer to copy it? Realisticly speaking, Romania was not into the industrial espionage bussiness (especially not against a friendly country).

Because, me and Italy worked together to build a pimping aircraft, we don't need a plane, just the Cauldron engine, which france manufactures. I just need your help to aquire this engine, later on I can copy it and do stuff with it, you have better ties with the french, so will you help?

TA, you have two options:

- on the 1st of January 1914, Romania had no Cauldrons, only Farmans and Bleriots. I can give you one of them.

- or, you can just buy a Cauldron from the French and copy its engine. You don't have to talk to the French governement, it's a private company that will sell its airplanes to anybody. But on the site NO has posted, they say it was made in 1913, while we are still in 1912. You can't buy the Cauldron this 'year'.

And how long after that did it take for them to get to the border or for their supply trains to assemble along the frontier?

If you want a 12 day mobilisation advantage - 12 days for 850,000 Romanians to fight the 15-20,000 troops I normally keep along the Transylvanian frontier (a 50:1 advamtage!!!), I suppose I'll have to give it to you. But mark my words: there will be consequences from such a reality. Dire consequences indeed.

I simply can not allow you to be able to launch an all-out surprise attack on Hungary and be in Budapest before I can even get mobilised...

More on this when I return from vacation.

And if you do invade me, I will show you no mercy whatsoever - even if it's the last thing I do.
I just want to expand a little on this matter.

1) I posted the info because it's a reality and I believe we should RP as close as possible to the reality, whenever we have available data.

2) I don't 'want' a mobilisation advantage . I could attack you with my 850 000 soldiers, but two weeks later you'd counterattack with an army several times larger.

3) I won't attack you unless a major war starts, and then only after our non-aggression pact expires. In that case, Romania would be the least of your worries.

4) I don't know how long will the army need to get to the frontier or for the supply trains to assemble along the frontier, but I suppose the time period was as short in proportion to the time you'll need as my mobilisation time was compared to yours.

5) I don't like threats.

Agreed. That is why I'm taking this data seriously and viewing it with considerable alarm.[QUOTE=Bogmihia]I don't 'want' a mobilisation advantage . I could attack you with my 850 000 soldiers, but two weeks later you'd counterattack with an army several times larger.Read the history of the Franco-Prussian War of 1870. Two weeks might as well be two years. In 1870, a smaller Prussian Army mobilised faster than a larger, better-equipped, and better-trained French Army. In less that two weeks, the Prussians overran the French frontier, struck the French Army while it was still massing, turned its flank before it could respond, surrounded it, and - in the weeks that followed - decisively defeated it. In doing so a new European empire was created and another was destroyed. It was one of the most important victories in military history.

Yes, you may only have a third as many men at full mobilisation. But in twelve days, you could replicate Prussia's feat, easily killing or capturing half a million men, defeating an army of more than a million men, and toppling my empire. That is a possibility that I must now take very seriously.I won't attack you unless a major war starts, and then only after our non-aggression pact expires. In that case, Romania would be the least of your worries.Right now your unwillingness to violate your obligations is the only thing I've got going for me - if only for the next three years.I don't know how long will the army need to get to the frontier or for the supply trains to assemble along the frontier, but I suppose the time period was as short in proportion to the time you'll need as my mobilisation time was compared to yours.I am making the same assumption.I don't like threats.Nor do I. That includes potential ones.

No radio! Men had to communicate by rider, runner, heliograph, flare, smoke, horns, etc. Problem is, in a battle across a wide front (50 miles), such means break down. Thus, left lank may not know that centre has broken. Coordination was a very serious problem.

What about ships? Didn't the Titanic have wireless radio?

What about ships? Didn't the Titanic have wireless radio?Ships had wirless (airships,too).

Ok, ok. I will, tell me the name of the guy who plays as france.

I want/I'm gonna take/I'm gonna kill/I'm gonna crush/I'm gonna destroy you/Bulgaria/them... if Greece permits.

God I love being in the middle. :p

*Rushes over to the RP thread to catch up.*

Ok, ok. I will, tell me the name of the guy who plays as france.
I am. :p

NO, I don't feel I'm such a big military threat and the Austrians certainly didn't believe it in RL, but, of course, you're free to make whatever moves you want.

Greek aspirations (in case anyone is wondering why I'm assisting Bulgaria rather than taking the advantage to extend into more territory) - Greece needs Bulgaria to remove turkish presence completely from mainland europe, by moving in to assist, we'll also look like heroes and bulgaria will be in our debt...

Of course, if NO decides not to enter the war I'm royally screwed but meh, that's RP. :p

Greek aspirations (in case anyone is wondering why I'm assisting Bulgaria rather than taking the advantage to extend into more territory) - Greece needs Bulgaria to remove turkish presence completely from mainland europe, by moving in to assist, we'll also look like heroes and bulgaria will be in our debt...

Of course, if NO decides not to enter the war I'm royally screwed but meh, that's RP. :p
NO can't enter the war. Romania and the Dual Monarchy have a NAP. The Greek position would be weakened if Bulgaria occupies the remaining Turkish lands in Europe. It would be easier for Greece to justify a war against Turkey than a war against Bulgaria, a fellow Orthodox state.

Good luck in the war you've entered! :p

Erm, perhaps you've misunderstood... I'm going to move into Bulgaria, assist Bulgarian troops loyal to the crown and the Orthodox church, and hopefully with the help of the Grand alliance, remove the communists and the serbians who are helping them. I need NO to assist me with dealing with the Serbians and to crush the socialist uprising. Once that is done, Greece may or may not continue on with Bulgaria to deal with the Romanian threat seperately - it all depends on the alliances position on this matter.

Hence, the lack of a declaration of war at this point.

btw - what is romanias official position on the commies in Sofia?

btw - what is romanias official position on the commies in Sofia?
We have given them weapons to weaken Bulgaria, but after/if they topple tsar Alexander, we'll intervene and crush them.

Edit: The Bulgarian Exarchate had authority over parts of the Salonika vilayet. Are you sure you want to support Bulgaria in this respect?

Ah, mkay - I was a bit confused after reading the main imperialism thread.

Of course, Greece doesn't know this, we only know about you're ultimatium but if things take there course as it seems to be it looks like you and I are very likely going to come into direct conflict over this.

I knew you were evul, you damn world domination planner you :p

Edit: The Bulgarian Exarchate had authority over parts of the Salonika vilayet. Are you sure you want to support Bulgaria in this respect?

If it had just been a romanian invasion, Greece probably would not have intervened. However, because it is a socialist uprising and a direct attack on the Orthodox church, Greece is furious - Greece is heavily dominated by the Orthodox church (at least, that's the impression I have from the eariler research).

Of course, Greece doesn't know this, we only know about you're ultimatium but if things take there course as it seems to be it looks like you and I are very likely going to come into direct conflict over this.
Over what? The exarchate? I'm in favor of maintaing the Bulgarian church - the exarchate - in Bulgaria. Outside it, where it also has authority, I simply have no influence.

If it had just been a romanian invasion, Greece probably would not have intervened. However, because it is a socialist uprising and a direct attack on the Orthodox church, Greece is furious - Greece is heavily dominated by the Orthodox church (at least, that's the impression I have from the eariler research).
Yes, Greece is indeed influenced by the church (but not dominated). I'm not threating the Bulgarian church, however. And the church influence over Greece should have an opposite effect on your reaction. The Greeks were absolutely furious when the Bulgarians were granted the Exarchate. You should be extatic the Exarchate is now in danger.

Oh. You mean you'll crush the socialists don't you?

*facepalm*

Well, in that case I have absolutely no idea what you are up to and I am back to being completely and utterly confused.

Yes I suppose we would, except I have no idea what the 'exarchate' is...

:rolleyes:

Oh. You mean you'll crush the socialists don't you?

*facepalm*

Well, in that case I have absolutely no idea what you are up to and I am back to being completely and utterly confused.
I'm in a war against Bulgaria. I only armed the communists to weaken Bulgaria. However, I don't want a communist state next to me, so, after the communists create enough trouble, I'll come in and save the day for the Bulgarians, who will be gratefull (I hope) that I helped them against the communists.

I'm in a war against Bulgaria. I only armed the communists to weaken Bulgaria. However, I don't want a communist state next to me, so, after the communists create enough trouble, I'll come in and save the day for the Bulgarians, who will be gratefull (I hope) that I helped them against the communists.

Too bad I have absolutely no knowledge ic of your plans and are planning to do exactly the same thing...

Too bad I have absolutely no knowledge ic of your plans and are planning to do exactly the same thing...
Of course you don't know. You don't even know I armed the communists. You only know I attacked Bulgaria.

About the Exarchate - I do plan to maintain it. Your official reaction, however, should be against a Bulgarian Orthodox Church, at least in the territories you control.

*Does some research.*

Ok, so the Bulgarian and Greek churches were at loggerheads (typical bloody religious cretins :rolleyes: ), however, socialists are bad news to both so I'm going ahead although now I'm going to have to RP some kind of protest by the Greek church... bugger. Ah well, perhaps I can placitate them by gaining some influence over the Bulgarian exarchate.

bump!!!

In case no one knows yet, I am playing as Russia.

K, I have a few questions.
1. What is the current statues of each country in the war?(maybe not so much losses, but political standing)
2. Can I RP in this? I am Russia, after all.
3. What is Turkey's status? Has Istanbul fallen? Are they even fighting?

Thanks for any help.

Welcome to the game!

1) Austria-Hungary has occupied the 4 western vilayets of European Turkey and wants to create an Albanian state there. The vilayet of Salonek and the islands of the Aegean have been ceded by Turkey to Greece. Bulgaria attacked Turkey, but now it is attacked in turn by Romania (maybe also Serbia, but it's not sure) and a communist uprising is taking place. The tsar has been shot, but Lachenburg (he's Bulgaria) must decide if he llives or not and he hasn't posted anything for one week. That's a map (http://foreignaffairs.tripod.com/armillotta/vilajetet.html) of the 5 westenmost Turkish vilayets.

P.S. I forgot: after being attacked by Romania, Bulgaria made peace with Turkey.

2) I don't know... I mean, although I took over France, I'm not interfering with the events because, in character, I took over France in the second part of 1912 and it's only June in the Balkans.

3) At the moment, Turkey's not fighting. They have lost (peacefully!) the five vilayets shown on the map and the Aegean Islands (Crete and the Dodecanese). They still control Adrianople and Constantinople.

Edit: When was your tsar shot? I guess you can intervene a few weeks after that, after your monarch 'recovers'.

In case no one knows yet, I am playing as Russia.

K, I have a few questions.
1. What is the current statues of each country in the war?(maybe not so much losses, but political standing)
2. Can I RP in this? I am Russia, after all.
3. What is Turkey's status? Has Istanbul fallen? Are they even fighting?

Thanks for any help.

1. Italy is closely allied with the Austrians at this point and will most likely jump in as their allies if Austria-Hungary joins the war.
2. Or course, Russia would of course have quite a bit of interest in what happens in the Balkins.

Has Austria gone to war with Serbia or Montenegro?
Also, which of the vilayets are going to be folded into Albania?

Lastly, WE NEED TO CLEAR UP THE TIME DIFFICULTIES!
I'm really not sure what year the Tsar was supposed to be injured.
Can we please either shift the current RPG time back to 1912(the year of the Balkan Wars) or declare a 2 year truce and move it up to 1914?
Also, in the case of time flow, 1 week should = 1 year. Otherwise, time passes too fast.

Greek aspirations (in case anyone is wondering why I'm assisting Bulgaria rather than taking the advantage to extend into more territory) - Greece needs Bulgaria to remove turkish presence completely from mainland europe, by moving in to assist, we'll also look like heroes and bulgaria will be in our debt...

Of course, if NO decides not to enter the war I'm royally screwed but meh, that's RP. :pWhy would I screw my Greek allies? Go get 'em, Tiger. And if you need anything... ;)

I know I'm starting to sound annoying, but am I able to RP in this war?
Yes, no, maybe so?

:confused: :mp5:

*Does some research.*

Ok, so the Bulgarian and Greek churches were at loggerheads (typical bloody religious cretins :rolleyes: ), however, socialists are bad news to both so I'm going ahead although now I'm going to have to RP some kind of protest by the Greek church... bugger. Ah well, perhaps I can placitate them by gaining some influence over the Bulgarian exarchate.I think New Dracora has it right.

What Serbia has demanded is the replacement of the Bulgarian exarchate with (in essence) a Serbian exarchate. Since Serbian ethnologists were busy proclaiming that there really were no Greeks in Greece - they were all Greek-speaking Serbs (I kid you not - I have found articles; even Bulgarian ethnologists weren't so brazen!), then this would represent an even more anti-Greek development than leaving the Bulgarian exarchate intact.

Of course, once Greece has liberated Bulgaria there will have to be some "readjustment" of eccesiastical boundararies... ;)

Add Serbia's apparent support for Communism in Bulgaria, and that just about makes Greek intervention certain (of course, it only looks like the Serbs are supporting the Commies, but that's what comes from being in the wrong place at the wrong time...). It's a free-for-all, but that's the Balkans...

Has Austria gone to war with Serbia or Montenegro?
Also, which of the vilayets are going to be folded into Albania?

Lastly, WE NEED TO CLEAR UP THE TIME DIFFICULTIES!
I'm really not sure what year the Tsar was supposed to be injured.
Can we please either shift the current RPG time back to 1912(the year of the Balkan Wars) or declare a 2 year truce and move it up to 1914?
Also, in the case of time flow, 1 week should = 1 year. Otherwise, time passes too fast.Answers to your questions: No, we have not (gone to war with anybody). We put the Serbs and Montengrins in the position of having to attack us if they wanted territory, and they decided not to do that. So we're committed to negotiations, starting in late 1912 (I've already worked out the results).


Albania will consist of everything but Salonika. Parts of Albanian will be ceded to other countries based on negotiations combined with the findings of the Dual Monarchy (as arbiter).


I think we've established the attack on the Tsar to have occured in March or so of 1912. Ask Warta Endor for the date of the Emperor's funeral, and then add six weeks.


As soon as the Bulgarian thing is resolved (which I think will happen soon), I would imagine that we'll skip ahead quickly, probably to 1915 (that's the next date when things look likely to happen - Germany is looking to break its alliance with the Dual Monarchy, the Romanian-Hapsburg non-aggression pact ends, Turkey's rearmament program begins bearing fruit, etc.

If I were you, I would begin posting to the main thread under the assumption that it's 1912-13, and next week will be 1914-15.

I know I'm starting to sound annoying, but am I able to RP in this war?
Yes, no, maybe so?

:confused: :mp5:Yes, I would assume that you could. If the Tsar is too ill, have Grand Duke Nicholas cover for him.

Did you read the posts that covered the meeting between Franz Ferdinand and Nicholas III? You should read those before you act.

Thing is, other than trying to preserve a Bulgarian monarchy, what's left to RP?

NO, I see you're online now. What do we do about Lachenburg and Bulgaria? If we keep waiting for him to post something, we'll still be fighting this war at Christmas.

O.K. That's my proposal. The tsar is killed or he's not, the revolution succeeds or doesn't, but my two armies use the troubles as an excuse for heading for Sofia and occupying it (crushing the revolution if it succeded). A new governement is installed (I prefer Stambolisky as prime-minister) and the war is over. I also plan to propose something to Stambolisky, but that's for later.

I believe that we have reached the point where we should call an end to the Balkan Wars.

I am disappointed that this has taken so long to resolve. Chalk it up to bad RP’ing and a lack of activity by key players. We should try to avoid such problems in the future. That said, I am going to describe how the current war ends, listing what each player will do and what happens as a consequence of it. It will also list who can veto these rulings.

All vetoes must be exercised within one week – by 9/18/2005. Otherwise, my rulings take effect. Note that a veto can not be a simple protest against my ruling. The player issuing the veto must describe in full what happens instead of my proposed action, and do so in a way that lets us finish this war.

So here goes: The Serbian 2nd Army does nothing to stop the rioting in Sofia.

VETO: Slavic Byzantium may put down the uprising, clearing the streets of Sofia at a cost of several hundred Serb dead. If he does the former, the Tsar survives and Bulgaria will (temporarily) be a Serb puppet state.

Alternately, Slavic Byzantium may support the Communists, in which case the Bulgarian government is overthrown; if this happens, Slavic Byzantium may determine the fate of the Tsar.


The Serbian 2nd Army looks on with alarm as a mob masses outside the Tsar’s palace in Sofia.

VETO: Slavic Byzantium may intervene as above, with the same results as given above.


Looking out the window at the growing mob, the Tsar is struck in the shoulder by a bullet. He is carried to his chambers and a doctor is summoned. The wound is serious but not fatal.

VETO: Lachenburg may declare the Tsar mortally wounded, in which case he will die by morning. This leaves the Tsar's heirs unhurt (for the moment).


The mob in the square outside the Palace storms it, overwhelming the Palace Guard and shooting the Tsar dead as he lies in his sick bed. His ministers and family are murdered as well.

VETO: Slavic Byzantium may intervene as above, with the same results as given above; this saves the Tsar (unless mortally wounded) along with his family.

At this point Slavic Byzantium has a new option: he may withdraw from Sofia with the Tsar (if alive) and his family, surrounding the city. He can then bring up artillery, flatten Sofia, and storm it. This reduces Serb casualties to a few hundred, but costs Bulgaria many thousands of lives.


Serb soldiers look on in horror as the mob hangs the mutilated bodies of the Tsar and his family from the palace balcony and set them ablaze.

VETO: Slavic Byzantium may intervene as above, with the same results as given above; this includes the added option of withdrawal followed by bombardment and seizure of the city by storm.


Upon hearing of the Tsar’s murder, King Nikola cancels his visit to Sofia and orders his troops out of the city, where they take up positions on its outskirts.

VETO: Slavic Byzantium may intervene as above, with the same results as given above.


Upon hearing news of the death of the Tsar and his family, the Bulgarian army disintegrates. Some deserters join the Communists, some join anti-Communist bands, but most just go home. The civilian populace becomes radicalised, some joining the Communists, some taking up arms against them, and some just hiding or fleeing the country.

VETO: Lachenburg may decide the loyalty the army and the populace, but no more than 20% may go Communist (there has been no preparation for widespread radicalisation of the Bulgarian Army or Bulgaria’s people, as there was in Russia [in 1917]).


Upon news of the death of the Tsar, Roumania sends an army to Sofia.

VETO: Bogmihia may choose not to move against the Communists.


Greece sends a large army to Sofia, but it has a difficult time crossing the Rhodope mountains in the face of local resistance.

VETO: New Dracora can choose to call off his action against the Communists or stop short of Sofia.


The Porte remains within its borders, securing its position and sending troops to Mesopotamia and Palestine.

VETO: The Andromedan may send troops into Bulgaria to seize more territory.


German Waffen SS cavalry join the Greek army coming up from the south.

VETO: Relative Liberty may choose some other mission for his Waffen SS troopers, but it appears likely that they will not make it to Sofia in time to save the Tsar or his family.


Greek and Romanian troops encircle Sofia, bombard it, and storm the city, putting down the uprising.

VETO: Bogmihia, New Dracora, or Relative Liberty may decide not to storm Sofia. If both Bogmihia and New Dracora refuse to assault the city (and Slavic Byzantium sits by and watches), then they must eventually withdraw (due to guerrilla action against their supply lines) and the Communist government survives). Slavic Byzantium may decide to await Greek or Romanian help, and then join the assault (or just watch).

If New Dracora and Bogmihia withdraw, Relative Liberty must as well.


A new government is installed in Sofia. This government is largely a Romanian puppet (but only temporarily)

VETO/MODIFICATION: If Bogmihia does not storm Sofia, they do not get to control the new government. Control then goes to the player who's forces were most instrumental in retaking the city.

All players assisting in retaking Sofia should have some influence with the new government.


Roumania, Serbia, Greece, and the Porte may help themselves to Bulgarian territory.

VETO: Bogmihia may veto anybody else’s annexations. New Dracora may veto the Porte’s annexations, unless Bogmihia overrules their veto. New Dracora may also veto Serbia’s annexations, unless (again) overruled by Bogmihia. The exception is where Slavic Byzantium controls the new government, in which case it requires both Bogmihia and New Dracora to veto any Serbian gains.


Whomever controls the new government decides the issue of ecclesiastical jurisdiction (i.e., the final disposition of the Bulgarian exarchate).


Whomever controls the new government decides if it will be Communist, Royalist, or Republican.

VETO: If anyone objects to the final arrangement, he may try to change it by force. Everyone supporting the final arrangement declares if they will defend it by force, and then I will declare (based on the balance of power) one absolute winner.

If there is a climatic battle to decide it all, winner takes all.I hope this is clear enough for everyone to follow. I will determine the final result next Sunday (if not sooner).

It looks fine to me. The Romanian armies may decide to go for Sofia even if the tsar is only injured. But I'll wait to see what will Lachenburg and Slavic Byzantium post (if they post).

It looks fine to me. The Romanian armies may decide to go for Sofia even if the tsar is only injured. But I'll wait to see what will Lachenburg and Slavic Byzantium post (if they post).I recommend we get on with our RP in the main thread under the assumption that the default will stand. Decide what you're going to do with Bulgaria and how much territory you want to take.

Not a chance in Hell that I'll recognise Carol I's usurpation of the Bulgarian throne. Just a little FYI. I've already Googled up a brace of rightful heirs.

Not a chance in Hell that I'll recognise Carol I's usurpation of the Bulgarian throne. Just a little FYI. I've already Googled up a brace of rightful heirs.
Let's see what will you do...

The word 'rightfull' is not quite appropriate, I'm afraid. Tsar Ferdinand was an 'usurper' himself, since he had replaced the former monarch, Alexander, in 1887. At least in Bulgaria, the people will not be very influenced by your arguments. Abroad, I'll use the 'usurper' argument.

Btw, what's FYI?

Der Ballplatz, Vienna“King Carol has declared himself King of Bulgaria, has he?” said Count von Berchtold with a smirk. “We’ll just have to see about that…”
To His Royal Highness George V Frederick Ernest Albert Saxe-Coburg-Gotha,
King of Great Britain and Emperor of India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_V_of_the_United_Kingdom),

With the apparent death of His Highness Prince Ferdinand I Maximilan
Karl Leopold Maria of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, King of Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_I_of_Bulgaria ), along
with his entire family, all rights to the throne of Bulgaria now fall
to the children of your maternal aunt, Her Royal Highness Princess
Beatrice Mary Victoria Feodore of Battenberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Beatrice%2C_Princess_Henry_of_Battenberg), and her late husband,
His Royal Highness Prince Henry Maurice of Battenberg, KG, PC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Henry_of_Battenberg ), namely
their Highnesses Alexander, Leopold, and Maurice of Battenberg (http://www.geocities.com/jesusib/drinoleomau.jpg ).

Sadly, we have received news that Karl I Eitel Friedrich Zephyrinus
Ludwig von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_(Charles)_of_Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen ), King of Roumania now seeks to
usurp the Bulgarian throne. Given the recent widespread disregard of royal
rights in the name of the unfettered pursuit of power, we feel it important
that a prinicpled position be taken against Carol I’s claim by advancing that
of a rightful heir. We therefore ask your permission to take up the matter
with Princess Beatrice, so that she may grant her approval for one of her
sons to take the throne.

A speedy reply is of the utmost importance. We thank your Royal Highness
for his indulgence.

Baron Leopold Berchtold von und zu Ungarschütz, Frättling, und Püllütz
k.u.k. Foreign Minister
OOC: I assume that Great Britain, not wishing to become involved in the matter, will decline and that the three future Lords Mountbatten (yes, that’s right – as in "Lord Mountbatten") will relinquish their rights to their sister Victoria Eugénie’s heirs (who will almost certainly accept).

VETO: Great Britain has one week to veto and advance one of the three young men as Ferdinand I’s heir.

If you’re wondering about the lineage, it’s through the late Prince Henry Maurice, who was the deposed Prince Alexander I of Bulgaria’s younger brother (so much for that “usurper” argument, Bogie….).

Victoria's grandkids, and recognition of the line named by the Tsar. Can you beat that, Bogie, or do I win the pot? ;)

BTW, FYI = “For Your Information”

You know, this is the OOC thread. :p

Victoria's grandkids, and recognition of the line named by the Tsar. Can you beat that, Bogie, or do I win the pot? ;)
I'm still fighting...

You know, this is the OOC thread. :p


I'm still fighting...Ah, so it is. I'll link.

As for a sickly Spanish child, remember that Spain may yet have more children, and could marry a Bulgarian. Plus Spain is a player...

And no matter how healthy Prince Carol may be, he is still not the rightful heir.

As for a sickly Spanish child, remember that Spain may yet have more children, and could marry a Bulgarian. Plus Spain is a player...
Who could marry a Bulgarian? Victoria Eugenie is already married to the Spanish king. As for more children, they can't influence the situation. The succesion will be decided now. You can't elect somebody who's not even born.

And no matter how healthy Prince Carol may be, he is still not the rightful heir.
He is related to the dead prince Alexander (although his claim is not as strong as that of Don Jaime de Borbón y Battenberg; but that's the only thing going against him); he's not four years old; he's healthy; he should be supported by Russia, because of his blood relation to the tsar's family.

Who could marry a Bulgarian?The child, upon maturity. Or a future child.He is related to the dead prince Alexander (although his claim is not as strong as that of Don Jaime de Borbón y Battenberg; but that's the only thing going against him); he's not four years old; he's healthy; he should be supported by Russia, because of his blood relation to the tsar's family.Succession, like blood, runs downhill. Carol's aunt counts for nothing. He's a usurper, pure and simple.

And it's not an "election". Divine right, and all that. You're the King, or your not. The throne belongs to the Battenbergs. Anything else is theft.

The child, upon maturity. Or a future child.Succession, like blood, runs downhill. Carol's aunt counts for nothing. He's a usurper, pure and simple.
No church in the world would marry a four year old to an adult (or an unborn child of unknown sex). You could at most make an engagement, but that would not give the Bulgarian the right to rule in his wife's/husband's name.

Blood runs downhill, you say. Then only Alexander's children (who don't exist, as far as I know) should be able to inherit the throne.
And it's not an "election". Divine right, and all that. You're the King, or your not. The throne belongs to the Battenbergs. Anything else is theft.
Ha! You forget that all of the monarchs in the Balkans (except for Serbia) have been elected, the criterium being his ability to lead his country. And whenever the people considered their monarch was not good enough, he was replaced. Bulgaria will certainly not accept such a weak monarch.

Blood runs downhill, you say. Then only Alexander's children (who don't exist, as far as I know) should be able to inherit the throne.OOC: Or the children of his younger siblings - that, too, is downhill. Hence, from Prince Alexander of Battenberg to Prince Henry Maurice of Battenberg, and thence to his three sons and the offspring of his only daughter.

Funny, but I don't see Carol in that line.

I don't think SL will post anything soon, which means we have to decide what to do about the Serbian soldiers in Bulgaria before continuing our conflict. There are two possibilities: they can either withdraw or stay. If they stay, we have three sub-options: they support Carol, they remain neutral or they side with the Greeks. In light of the alliance they have with Romania, it's unlikely they'll do anything hostile, but they also have nothing to gain by fighting Greece. Simply staying in Bulgaria would also bring them nothing and it will cost them a lot of money to support their army there. The logical choice would be to leave. If you agree, please tell me.

I don't think SL will post anything soon, which means we have to decide what to do about the Serbian soldiers in Bulgaria before continuing our conflict. There are two possibilities: they can either withdraw or stay. If they stay, we have three sub-options: they support Carol, they remain neutral or they side with the Greeks. In light of the alliance they have with Romania, it's unlikely they'll do anything hostile, but they also have nothing to gain by fighting Greece. Simply staying in Bulgaria would also bring them nothing and it will cost them a lot of money to support their army there. The logical choice would be to leave. If you agree, please tell me.We'll make that call on Saturday or Sunday.

BTW, are you still going to let Brusilov's Russians cross Romanian soil?

We'll make that call on Saturday or Sunday.
So we're freezing again all the action? :(

BTW, are you still going to let Brusilov's Russians cross Romanian soil?
The Russian player has stepped down, so probably the plan was canceled. :) If the new player will follow the same plan (highly unlikly), we will agree if Russia recognizes Prince Carol's claim on the Bulgarian throne. K.u.K. is already badly disposed towards Romania. I don't want two powerfull neighbours looking with distrust on Romania.

So we're freezing again all the action? :(No, I'm not moving the Serbs until their time has run out, per my original post. Remember, I gave SB a week to act. I don't expect him to.

If you want to attack him before then, feel free. ;)

I don't want two powerfull neighbours looking with distrust on Romania.Oh, why not? Once you own Bulgaria, you'll have the equivalent of 50 combat divisions. That's close to what I have. Surely you'll be ready for simultaneous war with two empires. :p

No, I'm not moving the Serbs until their time has run out, per my original post. Remember, I gave SB a week to act. I don't expect him to.

If you want to attack him before then, feel free. ;)
I won't do it unless he gives me a reason. If you wish, we can continue under the presumption that the Serbs remain in Bulgaria and side with the Greeks. I just don't want to stop again (because I won't be able to make my moves unless I know what the Serbs will do).

Another pause in the Balkan Wars means even more time before we get synchronized again with the rest of the world, so many players won't be able to post either. The Age of Imperialism won't be killed by this, but things would certainly ger boring. I am ready to settle for hostile Serbs, as long as this means we can continue the RP.

Oh, why not? Once you own Bulgaria, you'll have the equivalent of 50 combat divisions. That's close to what I have. Surely you'll be ready for simultaneous war with two empires. :p
50? :eek: You are very generous tonight. I suppose that after annexing Serbia and Greece, I'll have about 100 divisions, allowing me to take over the world with great ease. :p

A question which is completelly off-topic:

What's wrong with the time on this forum? I've just posted and the time here is 4:58, but on the "Age of Imperialism-ooc/sign up thread" your last post is at 5:41. I've also noticed before that the time difference between my time and the forum time varies with one hour sometimes (it increses in the evening, I guess).

A question which is completelly off-topic:

What's wrong with the time on this forum? I've just posted and the time here is 4:58, but on the "Age of Imperialism-ooc/sign up thread" your last post is at 5:41. I've also noticed before that the time difference between my time and the forum time varies with one hour sometimes (it increses in the evening, I guess).
That is clearly the work of a wizard who's tampering with the gravity, thus increasing and decreasing the speed at which times flows by.

I just don't want to stop again (because I won't be able to make my moves unless I know what the Serbs will do).I think it is safe to assume that the Serbs won't help the Greeks - or you. You can thus deal with the Greeks first and then address the Serbian problem.

A question which is completelly off-topic:

What's wrong with the time on this forum? I've just posted and the time here is 4:58, but on the "Age of Imperialism-ooc/sign up thread" your last post is at 5:41. I've also noticed before that the time difference between my time and the forum time varies with one hour sometimes (it increses in the evening, I guess).The two Jolt servers are out of synch. Happens all the time.

I think it is safe to assume that the Serbs won't help the Greeks - or you. You can thus deal with the Greeks first and then address the Serbian problem.
Hmm, I still don't like leaving - potentially - hostile troops behind me. I'll do something different instead.

It's not like you have a choice; you've got Serbs running all over Bulgaria. Remember Crown Prince Alexander and the Serbian 1st Army that was helping the Bulgarians besiege Edirne? Where are they? I figure they're somewhere around Plovdiv and heading northwest at this point.

Really, I doubt that Serbia will do anything...

They were ordered to head for Sofia one month ago. I believe they must have arrived by now.
No, I was wrong. Initially, SL had ordered the army around Adrianople to follow the 1st and 2nd Bulgarian armies and to link up with the Romanian forces from Varna. I showed him he can't do both things at once, because those Bulgarian armies were going to Sofia and he decided to send his army to Varna.

My apologies, my eyes start to read the wrong things at 3am. The orders will be to link up with Romania.

To clarify just in case, 2nd Army in Sofia is not to fire a shot doing what it's gonna do. Just basically have all major streets to the palace, and the palace itself lined with Serb soldiers.

Just posted to tell that I sent troops to quell the uprising in Mecca, that Saudi ***hole insists to arm the rebels down there, I told him that If he doesn't stop, I'll declare war on him.

Also, I'm asking the Dual Monarchy to help me in the production of the new aircraft, the OSM-1. It's very capable, but a small travel radius because of it's smaller fuel tank.

ooc: Quick note on the developments in bulgaria,

At the moment I'm considering having my defensive line just north of the main railline that runs from Andrinople through Philppopoli and eventually Sofia where the defense line will stop just short of Sofia and bend back along the river for a bit until about a couple of days north of Koestendil where the line crosses the river and continues south west into greek territory and meets Epirus units in charge of the supply dump at Uskub.

That's about all I can say until I get a better 1912 map of the area so keep posted - all you need to know right about now is I control the main railroad through southern bulgaria and most of the line will be built utilising the Marilsa river since I only have around 140,000 troops to cover the 300kms or so of front.

Btw, if anyone out there is familiar with this era of battle tactics, suggestions would be more than welcome.

ooc: Quick note on the developments in bulgaria,

At the moment I'm considering having my defensive line just north of the main railline that runs from Andrinople through Philppopoli and eventually Sofia where the defense line will stop just short of Sofia and bend back along the river for a bit until about a couple of days north of Koestendil where the line crosses the river and continues south west into greek territory and meets Epirus units in charge of the supply dump at Uskub.

That's about all I can say until I get a better 1912 map of the area so keep posted - all you need to know right about now is I control the main railroad through southern bulgaria and most of the line will be built utilising the Marilsa river since I only have around 140,000 troops to cover the 300kms or so of front.

Btw, if anyone out there is familiar with this era of battle tactics, suggestions would be more than welcome.
You don't control all the railroad between Adrianople and Sofia. Check what I said about the teritories my armies can reach before yours. The Khaskovo province (through which part of the railroad passes) is in my control.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/bulgaria.jpg

That's what I said:

OOC: Since Greece has joined the war against the communists, I'll try to outline the regions of Bulgaria controlled by Romania and those controlled by Greece. I'll use this (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/bulgaria.jpg) map, showing modern Bulgaria. For 1912, we must ignore the southern parts of Sofyia, Plovdiv and Khaskovo regions.

Romania controlls all the teritory north of the Balkan mountains (the Montana, Lovech, Ruse and Varna provinces), the Black Sea coast (Burgas) and the region just north of the city of Sofia. I believe the Greek armies came to Sofia through the Struma valley, so the region south of Sofia is Greek occupied.

My original plan said that the rest of the country (the central and northern two thirds of the Plovdiv and Khaskovo provinces) was to be occupied by Romanian armies converging from Sofia and Burgas. Because the Greeks are in Sofia, the Romanian troops there will stay. Only the 3rd Army from Burgas will move. Khaskovo is close to Burgas, so it will be occupied anyway. This leaves Plovdiv. If the Greeks try to occupy it, my soldiers will not be able to reach it before them. I'll leave New Dracora decide if he wants to occupy it or not.

At the moment I'm considering having my defensive line just north of the main railline that runs from Andrinople through Philppopoli and eventually Sofia where the defense line will stop just short of Sofia and bend back along the river for a bit until about a couple of days north of Koestendil where the line crosses the river and continues south west into greek territory and meets Epirus units in charge of the supply dump at Uskub.Uskub (a/k/a Skopje) is part of Albania (look at the map).

Of course, if you want III.Korps to enter the Greek zone and take up positions overlooking Sofia, I can do that. Remember, I don't recognise Bulgarians as Romanians; I can fight any or all of the “Carolist” Bulgarian without breaking my non-aggression pact with Roumania, and the Roumanians can't do a d_mn_d thing about it. In addition, I can also raise and supply “Battenberg” Bulgarians to fight his Roumanians, staging them from that selfsame fortress of Skopje.

Oh, and don't be fooled by Bogie's talk about the Alliance having no way into Bulgaria. We've got Albania, and - as I just pointed out - the pact permits me to attack his Bulgarian forces. In addition, I can always ask Germany to send an army to Albania to deal with the Roumanian forces.

Oh, and don't be fooled by Bogie's talk about the Alliance having no way into Bulgaria. We've got Albania, and - as I just pointed out - the pact permits me to attack his Bulgarian forces. In addition, I can always ask Germany to send an army to Albania to deal with the Roumanian forces.
Yes, but my Romanian armies are the first obstacle, and they're not moving.

Yes, but my Romanian armies are the first obstacle, and they're not moving.Precisely how do your Romanian armies prevent Germans from getting to Skopje? Or are you talking about the Bulgarian forces? If the latter, are you telling me they'll never take a front-line position?

Precisely how do your Romanian armies prevent Germans from getting to Skopje? Or are you talking about the Bulgarian forces? If the latter, are you telling me they'll never take a front-line position?
The Bulgarians are mixed with the men of Army Group South, forming the Army of Bulgaria. I've already posted that. So how will your men make the difference between Romanians and Bulgarians?

The Bulgarians are mixed with the men of Army Group South, forming the Army of Bulgaria. I've already posted that. So how will your men make the difference between Romanians and Bulgarians?IC: The Bulgarians will be the ones wearing sandals.

Seriously, it won't be that had to figure out.

Seriously, it won't be that had to figure out.
Why?

Why?Because I can rely on non-k.u.k. forces (such as the Waffen-SS or - better still - non-Carolist Bulgarian komitadjis [did you imagine that every Bulgarian loves the idea of union with Roumania?!?] to patrol ahead of my forces, nabbing prisoners for interrogation. How do you think armies usually figure out who they're facing?

The Romanian prisoners will be wearing Romanian uniforms and speak Romanian. The Bulgarian prisoners will be wearing Bulgarian uniforms (including their distinctive footgear) and speak Bulgarian.

Of course, there's a simpler way to do it: if I get shot at, anyone who fires upon me must be Bulgarian, since Romanian troops would never break the non-aggression pact. ;)

OK, let's clarify the issue. You said your pact allows you to attack the Bulgarian forces and that you can ask Germany for an army. I replied ('my Romanian armies are the first obstacle, and they're not moving') to the first part of your statement. You can't attack, because the Romanians are in the front line.

The Bulgarian Army (which is part Romanian) will also be brought to the front line, if need be, but all the men in it will be wearing the same uniform. I mean, it didn't even cross my mind that part of the army might wear one uniform and the rest a different uniform. Anyway, now the men will all wear the Bulgaro-Romanian uniform. :p

I mean, it didn't even cross my mind that part of the army might wear one uniform and the rest a different uniform. Anyway, now the men will all wear the Bulgaro-Romanian uniform. :pOOC: No problem. How long does it take to sew ... uh, let's see ... 150,000 uniforms? :p

And I can still walk into the Greek-held areas...

(Actually, if it didn't cross your mind, then I would say that you probably wouldn't start trying to get everyone into a single uniform until if becomes obvious that you need one; moreover, since you're going to want Bulgarians in command of Bulgarian units and Romanians in command of Romanian units, and you're probably not going to want to try and reorganise everything on the eve of war, my take is that you'd probably keep them separated up to divisional level - with their own weapons, with their own tactics, with their own command structure, in their own units.

But if you want to deconstruct the Bulgarian Army and then reconstruct in, that's fine. It's just going to leave the Bulgarians hors de combat for a number of months...)

OOC: No problem. How long does it take to sew ... uh, let's see ... 150,000 uniforms? :p
Hey, that was a joke. I have even stuck my tongue out to you. :p

And I can still walk into the Greek-held areas...
Certainly. I can't stop you from doing this.

Btw, how long would it take for new uniforms to be issued to the Bulgarian Army? Longer than the Germans would need to get here? Another question: would the Germans be willing to mobilise 30+ divisions, because I have 27 (not counting the smaller units) and I'm on the defensive? I'll wait and see...

I've begun full demobilization of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 7th armies and have sent them to the training academy. The newly formed 9th brigade, right out of the academy will be serving as border guards on the Armenian frontier, and also be sent to Gallpoli, and Adrianople to rebuild the defenses. The fourth army is currently in Mecca puting down a violent rebellion. The sixth army is serving as a support against the rebels and also as a standing army in case Arabia gets more involved in the rebellion. And the 8th expeditionary force is in Baghdad, and 2 regiments from that army will be sent to Jeruselam.

Also, yes I do have planes now. Here's the link:
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/images/caudron_g-4.jpg

Rejoice, :fluffle: . Now stop that...

Ok... defense plans - take two,

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/3482/balkanbelligerants1914edit8oa.jpg

Red = Epirus
Blue = Thessaly

lines = defensive lines
dots = major supply points


And now... that's about all the info your getting until I see some reciprocation. :p

Another question: would the Germans be willing to mobilise 30+ divisions, because I have 27 (not counting the smaller units) and I'm on the defensive? I'll wait and see...
Never underestimate the power of the dark side...

Another question: would the Germans be willing to mobilise 30+ divisions, because I have 27 (not counting the smaller units) and I'm on the defensive? I'll wait and see...You have 27 divisions less the 5 Bulgarian ones you won't commit to front line action, and less the 5 you've got along the Transylvanian frontier, and also less however many more are holding your lines of communication open against anti-Carolist forces (Communist remnants, conservative forces opposed to land reform, Bulgarian nationalists who just will not buy the idea that Bulgaria and Roumania should be one big country), along with whatever is watching the Serbs and Turks (who you still can't be certain won't do something). At best I count maybe 16 divisions, and I think that's being generous.

The Greeks have 3 divisions (allowing for some troops to be stuck in the Rhodope mountains defending their supply lines), as well as maybe 1 division of Battenberg Bulgarians. I have 3 divisions plus 1 division of Bulgarian/Macedonian nationalists (komitajdis - the VMRO). I have another 1-2 divisions in reserve, as does Greece (which we won't count for now). That gives you a 2:1 edge. So far, so good.

But if Germany sent me one of its eight field armies - 10 divisions - and I sent in the balance of 2.Armee (6 more divisions), suddenly things would not be so pretty. We would have 24 divisions against your 16, or a 3:2 edge. Even if you deduct my 9-10 divisions, I've enough to cover the Greek and German flanks (and in the process stretch your line) so that, in all likelihood, 14-15 divisions could strike 12 of yours.

And then, too, realise that the minute you start shooting at the Germans or Greeks, my alliance ties with them kick in, and I can come to their assistance.

The Bulgarian army now poses a threat to all the Balkan nations. I'm trying to form a pact with Serbia, Montenagro, Albania and Greece to ally if Bulgaria sets its sights on expansionism. Right now, Bulgaria stands strong with a million man army. HoLLa back if you agree with this pact.

And to Greece. That defensive line looks great, would you like for me to strech my defensive line in Adrianople to your line, that would make for great military support. And how did you make that image online??? Can you give me the site please???

Entire ninth army being moved to Adrianople.

Here's the basic defensive plan
http://img277.imageshack.us/my.php?image=turkgreeciandefensiveline3cg.jpg

Greece, meet me at the big green dot Ok?

Red-defensive line
Blue-main defesive bases

My defensive line contains a railroad network behind dug in artillery, then my actual trenches, walls blockhouses. Later, if you, Greece, decide to agree to this, I can start to extend my railroads to your supply depots and forts.

So, Relative Liberty, if you think that France and Russia will hold still for a minute, would you like to send an army to Albania?

We'll clear the rail lines as far as Goražde, and then you can hoof if from there. The Old Bosnia Road is dry and hard in summertime, so you should be able to tramp overland to Skopje in good time.

Alternately, Carol can renounce his Bulgarian claim and let a Battenberg take the throne. And maybe if he begs King George V, he'll decide to let the British Battenbergs (Mounbattens) take the throne instead of the Spanish lad.

LATE-BREAKING DEVELOPMENT: RL, check your TG's

NO: Romania has 25 divisions. We have left 5 in the Carpathians, so only 20 are in Bulgaria. I have recruited 7 more divisions from Bulgaria, for a total of 27 divisions (more, actually, since I'm not counting the lesser units) in Bulgaria. The supply lines could be defended by part of the 5 divisions I have left in the Carpathians. We'll have close to 1 million soldiers packed on a narrow front, so we'll have trench warfare. How will you know which soldiers are Romanian and which are Bulgarians?

Also, are you saying that, if I defend against Greece and Germany, you'll attack me? I quote from our treaty: "The Kingdom of Romania and the Kingdoms and Lands Represented in the Imperial Council and the Lands of the Holy Hungarian Crown of St. Stephen, animated by a desire to preserve the peace between our two nations, declare that, for the next three years after the signing of this document, they will not declare war on one another under any circumstance. Furthermore, the Kingdom of Romania and the Dual Monarchy will not join a war in which one of our nations is already fighting on the other side or, if it will do so, they will only fight against the other members of the coalition until the expiration of this treaty." I think it's pretty clear. And wasn't your alliance a defensive one?

Finally! *wipes sweat off his forehead* I've found, after a titanic work, the conditions of the alliance (it's the post no. 421 on the 29th page of the Age of Imperialism RP thread):

Sweden, we're formally inviting you to join the Alliance. Any objections?

Actually, to make this simple, I think I'll start a factbook note on the Grand Alliance. Here are the current members (correct me if I mess up your formal name):
The Kingdom of Sweden


The Second German Reich


The Third Republic of France


The Kingdom of Holland


The Kingdom of Belgium


The Kingdom of Spain


The Kingdom of Italy


The Kingdoms and Lands Represented in the Imperial Council and the Lands of the Holy Hungarian Crown of St. Stephen
Anyone left out?

Anyone not want in?

Anyone object to someone else being in?

Shall we just assume the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg joins, to complete the picture in the Low Countries?

And does anyone mind Norway joining, if they please (I'd invite Denmark and Portugal, but they have no players, so we'll have to RP wooing them...)?

All members pledge to support each other in mutual defence (and only in defence).

Are you claiming that Germany and Greece will actually defend when attacking the Romanian armies in Bulgaria?

TA: If Turkey joins the war, I'll renounce all my claims to the Bulgarian crown and help Bulgaria to kick you out of Europe for good. You decide what to do. Also remember that Greece wants a piece of you, too, and you haven't solved your problems in Arabia.

I don't know how to draw on a map, but my troops are deplyed as follows: we start from the Greek border and continue just south of the Maritsa River and Dimitrovgrad, then turn noth on a line a bit west of the railway between Dimitrovgrad and Kazanluk. Kazanluk is in a depression between two mountain ranges of the Balkans, my are armies are deployed on the southern range (Sredne Gora), on an imaginary line just south of the railway Kazanluk-Sofia-Serbian border.

Fallback positions: Tundzha river and the northern mountain range of the Balkans.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/bulgaria.jpg

My defensive line contains a railroad network behind dug in artillery, then my actual trenches, walls blockhouses. Later, if you, Greece, decide to agree to this, I can start to extend my railroads to your supply depots and forts.
1) Why do you buid defenses if you want to attack me?

2) Your trenches are behind your railroad?

Never underestimate the power of the dark side...
I'm not underestimating your power. I was questioning your willingness to use all of it (a costly affair) for no actual gain.

I'm not underestimating your power. I was questioning your willingness to use all of it (a costly affair) for no actual gain.
Any member of the Grand Alliance can count on my full support, should they be attacked. I will also support an attacking member of the Grand Alliance if they are fighting for an honourable cause.

Narodna, what are planning to do with the Macedonians?

That's going to depend on events that have not yet unfolded.

Right now, I'm dangling the notion of autonomy in front of them.

Only autonomy?

For the moment, I said...

Are you claiming that Germany and Greece will actually defend when attacking the Romanian armies in Bulgaria?

Who said I would attack? I'm merely refusing to leave....Heh, I'm using passive resistance! \o/ :D

Seriously however, any attack on my lines would warrant any retaliation on either my behalf or my allies behalf as directed by the terms of the alliance since we would be acting in self-defense on part of the entire alliance.

Correct?

Who said I would attack? I'm merely refusing to leave....Heh, I'm using passive resistance! \o/ :D

Seriously however, any attack on my lines would warrant any retaliation on either my behalf or my allies behalf as directed by the terms of the alliance since we would be acting in self-defense on part of the entire alliance.

Correct?
Correct. But I'm not leaving either. Passive resistance can go both ways. :p

O.K. people. If New Dracora doesn't attack, is it a stalemate? I'm ready to propose a compromise, if you agree (NO, I'm talking to you, you're the brains behind my opposition). I'm prepared to fall back to the north of the Balkans. Boris can have the country to the south.

Here's the basic defensive plan
http://img277.imageshack.us/my.php?image=turkgreeciandefensiveline3cg.jpg

Greece, meet me at the big green dot Ok?

Red-defensive line
Blue-main defesive bases

My defensive line contains a railroad network behind dug in artillery, then my actual trenches, walls blockhouses. Later, if you, Greece, decide to agree to this, I can start to extend my railroads to your supply depots and forts.

I must say that at this moment I am so divided right now over continuing to realistically RP the animosity that's supposed to exist between our two nations and the fact that I am finding it really hard to not like you. :p

Let's just keep up appearences for the good of the RP and keep our lines seperate but agree in ooc not to rip each other apart for the time being m'kay? ;)

O.K. people. If New Dracora doesn't attack, is it a stalemate? I'm ready to propose a compromise, if you agree (NO, I'm talking to you, you're the brains behind my opposition). I'm prepared to fall back to the north of the Balkans. Boris can have the country to the south.Let's see what RL does. Remember, Saturday is my deadline.

O.K. people. If New Dracora doesn't attack, is it a stalemate? I'm ready to propose a compromise, if you agree (NO, I'm talking to you, you're the brains behind my opposition). I'm prepared to fall back to the north of the Balkans. Boris can have the country to the south.

*ND's mental atlas suffers a temporary failure.*

Erm... if that's all of Bulgaria then great. We can restore the country and then we'll be like peas and carrots again. ;)

Let's see what RL does. Remember, Saturday is my deadline.
The fate of the world depends on my actions?! It is time for a quote: ''I have become Death, destroyer of worlds.''

The fate of the world depends on my actions?! It is time for a quote: ''I have become Death, destroyer of worlds.''Aren't you supposed to then say: "BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA"? Or is that undignfiied for a Shiva avatar?

*ND's mental atlas suffers a temporary failure.*

Erm... if that's all of Bulgaria then great. We can restore the country and then we'll be like peas and carrots again. ;)No, he's generously offering to give back about 40% of it.

No, he's generously offering to give back about 40% of it.
Let's say 50%.

Aren't you supposed to then say: "BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA"? Or is that undignfiied for a Shiva avatar?
I'm quite sure the Bhagavad Gita does not include a maniacal laughter by Krishna after saying that.

I have a question, does Great Britian still want to take over Iraq and the middle east. Because I'm having a little trouble, knowing whats going on.

Oh yes, and is the Lachendburg player still on this? Because I remember that he got PWNED by Bulgaria and me. So what to do with Romania... :rolleyes:

Oh yes, and is the Lachendburg player still on this? Because I remember that he PWNED by Bulgaria and me. So what to do with Romania... :rolleyes:

1) What's PWNED?

2) What about Romania? I saved you from Bulgaria. Are you really surprised I'm pissed you're trying to backstab me?

3) I really doubt Lachenburg will be back. He didn't give any sign of life for two weeks now. I'm even against letting him back if he returns the next minute, since I can't trust him not to repeat the past weeks' 'performance'?

Edit: Ask Britain in the Age of Imperialism thread. You can't be sure Latiatis will look in here.

I believe changing the dates is a bad idea, since it creates more inconsistencies than it alleviates. Lachenburh had specifically declared his armies will take 'many weeks' to get to their destinations because of their lack of cohesion and organization caused by their mistrust in the king's decision of fighting Romania. Also, the communist revolution is supposed to have started because Romania gave them weapons. However, on the 23rd of May, the 1st and 2nd Armies were still in Romania, meaning it would have been impossible for us to supply them (actually, we should have supplied them a full week before the insurection, to give the weapons enough time to get to Sofia and to give the communists enough time to organize the action). Without the weapons, the revolution can't start.

Using Viamichelin, (http://www.viamichelin.com/viamichelin/gbr/dyn/controller/ItiWGPerformPage?E_wg=210505262lS16J505261184051134225ITIWG2i10133gbr0026110h10041010041010010010072 005261039.004-1.00110001001001001001001003gbr011010&pim=true&strStartAddress=&strStartCP=&strStartCity=velingrad&strStartCityCountry=1025340&strDestAddress=&strDestCP=&strDestCity=varna&strDestCityCountry=1025340&strStep1City=&strStep1CityCountry=EUR&strStep2City=&strStep2CityCountry=EUR&strStep3City=&strStep3CityCountry=EUR&dtmDeparture=18%2F09%2F2005&intItineraryType=1&intOneCountryCheck=true&unit=km&vh=CAR&conso=6&carbCost=1.00&devise=1.0%7CEUR&devise2=Other&image.x=32&image.y=7) it's 465 Km from Velingrad, a town in the Rhodopes, to Varna. If, because of organization problems, the armies only moves 15 Km per day (which is not so bad, really), it would be impossible for them to reach the frontline before the insurection. After finding out the tsar is dead, the army loses the will to fight and dissintegrates. We can also presume the two armies around Adrianople were delayed a few days, waiting to see if the Turks really want to make peace or intend to attack them in the back. After that, they start for Sofia at a slow pace. The tsar grows impacient, moves ahead of it, reaches Sofia a few days before the 10th of June and dies in the insurrection as posted.

I believe it was you (NO) who said the communists' support was much weaker in 1912 than in 1919. Moving the revolution from June to May deprives the communists of the means to start the revolution. Without my aid, it would have been realistically impossible for them to organize a revolution, much less a succesfull one. Since all of our actions are based on the presumption that a succesfull communist revoulution took place in Bulgaria, I suggest not changing the dates.

I believe changing the dates is a bad idea, since it creates more inconsistencies than it alleviates. Lachenburh had specifically declared his armies will take 'many weeks' to get to their destinations because of their lack of cohesion and organization caused by their mistrust in the king's decision of fighting Romania.It takes an army two weeks to march from Adrianople to Bulgaria at 15 miles a day. At 10 miles a day, it takes 3 weeks. If the revolt occurred on June 10th, 26 days after the ultimatum, and we assume that troops began withdrawing from the siege of Adrianople almost immediately, that would still mean the Bulgarians were moving at a rate of less than 7 miles a day, at a time when I’ve been allowing Serb and Romanian troops to cover 15 miles a day with baggage and 20-25 miles a day without. Weather can’t account for this (we’re in May and June), and the main road from Adrianople to Sofia isn’t that bad, so I’m at a bit of a loss to explain why Bulgarian armies couldn’t move faster under pressure.

I’m discounting Lachenburg’s assessment of his troops’ abilities. He ignored the fact that the Bulgarians were among the bravest, fiercest fighters in the region and made them all abject cowards, and now I’m supposed to believe that they’re all slow abject cowards as well? Also, the communist revolution is supposed to have started because Romania gave them weapons.What made you think this? Lachenburg posted the notes from the UBPSWP and the first shots of the revolt before you sent them any arms.However, on the 23rd of May, the 1st and 2nd Armies were still in Romania, meaning it would have been impossible for us to supply them (actually, we should have supplied them a full week before the insurection, to give the weapons enough time to get to Sofia and to give the communists enough time to organize the action). Without the weapons, the revolution can't start.I have your troops crossing the border at noon on May 16th, at least according to Post #162 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9558628&postcount=162).

As for the weapons, I assume that they were taken from arms depots in Sofia itself.I believe it was you (NO) who said the communists' support was much weaker in 1912 than in 1919. Moving the revolution from June to May deprives the communists of the means to start the revolution. Without my aid, it would have been realistically impossible for them to organize a revolution, much less a succesfull one. Since all of our actions are based on the presumption that a succesfull communist revoulution took place in Bulgaria, I suggest not changing the dates.What I said was that the Communists didn’t adopt the strategy of infiltrating the armies of Europe until 1917. That was because I anticipated someone saying that the whole Bulgarian army would go Communist. What I envisioned (and still envision) is a Paris Commune scenario.

If I don’t move the dates, nothing makes sense. The Serbs leave Nis on the 17th and occupy Sofia on the 22nd – or do I limit them to 9 miles a day as well? At that point, either the Tsar never goes to his palace or he’s under house arrest by the Serbs for almost 3 weeks, which leaves us in the weird position of assuming that neither side does anything for weeks on end. After all, you’ve got the Bulgarians from the Rhodope marching north to Sofia. They can get to the capitol in just four days. Do we assume they loiter for a week in the Rhodope mountains, and then refuse to march on Sofia for fear of challenging the Serbs (which takes us back to the slow abject coward model of Bulgarian behaviour)? Even at 5 miles a day with a 3 day delay in getting started, they’d be in Sofia by May 23rd, in time to storm in and rescue the Serbs. I can explain Dimitriev’s failure to march on Sofia if the city hasn’t fallen yet, but if the King and Royal Family are being held by the Serbs?

If you really insist that Bulgaria is a land full of slow, cowardly, traitors, then I’m going to let you have it. Having that many miscreants within your borders will certainly destroy your country.

One question that has not been addressed is the date of the request for assistance by the UBPSWP. I will assume that it was drafted on the 18th or 19th. If Ferdinand travelled by carriage back to Sofia on the 16th, he would have arrived late on the evening of the 18th. It would be that evening and the following day that government and military officials would begin to react badly to his decision to fight all comers.

If we assume that notices commanding all able-bodied men to take up arms appeared on the 19th (the day the Serbian 2nd Army crossed the border into Bulgaria), then sporadic fighting could have begun that day evening (Lachenburg’s last post). By the 21st, parts of the city could be in upheaval, but officials could be too scared of the Tsar to tell him that he was losing his grip on his own capitol.

So I vote for Kurchinev’s note to be sent out on the 18th and passed back to Ferdinand by the k.u.k. Ambassador on the 19th. Mass arrests and defections of cowards and traitors follow (which simply drives them into hiding, to await the arrival of the Serbian army), and the rest is history.

This would place Roumania’s effort to send arms to the Communists – which followed Kurchinev’s letter – on or around the 22nd or even 23rd. Given delays in communication, it is quite possible that the arms were handed over after Ferdinand was dead but before news of his death had reached Bucharest (or the men making the transfer).

So I would expect that the June 1st date of Bogie’s post (in which he gives arms to the Communists) would have to change.

Now we come to the issue of fighting. If the Romanians began marching on Sofia on the 25th, they would arrive a little over a week later, on June 2nd; I’ll assume some inconsequential resistance at Pleven and on the outskirts of Sofia, and say that the city is reached on the 5th. The Greeks, coming up from Serres, would take 10 days, plus maybe a week more do to guerrilla resistance in the Rhodope mountains (which isn’t necessarily Communist resistance, BTW), so we’ll say that they arrive by June 11th.

Now, Bogie has posted a date of June 21st for the liberation of Sofia. That’s 16 days – not inconsistent with street fighting against determined citizens. If we don’t accept this timetable, and assume instead a June 11th regicide, then Romanian forces can’t leave until the 12th, arrive before the 20th, leaving them just one day to clear the city. We’d have to assume that the Communist revolt collapses at the first whiff of fighting, which seems a bit much.

Consequently, I’m going to assume that the Greek account of events is more accurate: they have to bring up artillery to bombard the town prior to storming it. To give the Romanian’s control of the city, we’ll assume that the defences collapsed on the northeast side of town first, while resistance continued along the southern perimeter for a day or two, which would give the Romanians control of the heart of the city.

The need to allow adequate time for the city to be taken is the other reason why I believe the date of the revolt needs to be pushed forward.

1) PWNED is a counter-strike term for getting whooped badly popularized in 2002.
2) where the hell did you get this backstab crap, I merely stated that... oh crap, you're right. LOL

Hold on, I put Bulgaria and Romania in the wrong spot in the post. It was supposed to mean that, "where is Bulgaria, Romania and I PWNED him"

where should I post the map of the arab defenses, should we make a seperate thread for that conflict Narodna??

where should I post the map of the arab defenses, should we make a seperate thread for that conflict Narodna??Yes, we should make a separate thread. RP and OOC.

But what to call it? Decisions, decisions.

I don't think Skibereen is playing, so we should maybe ask Latiatis if he wants to take the role of his Saudi clients (whom we are going to destroy).

Anyway, we should take this to the main OOC/RP threads. It's not a part of the Balkan Wars.

OK, regardless of the timeline, let's make a decision regarding the final outcome. What will Roumania do when Prince Boris surfaces? His appearance will call the legitimacy of the Union into account.

I think that an appropriate solution would be a Roumanian withdrawal to the two provinces claimed in the initial note. The new Bulgarian government will have to follow through on the land reform policy, although they may revert to making people pay for the land.

Perhaps Boris could marry a Roumanian princess - if there is one?

Alternately, Roumania could just thumb its nose at the Grand Alliance. The truth is, we probably won't attack and try to drive you out the parts of Bulgaria that you control. We would have to decide who holds Plovdiv, of course...

Lachenburg has contacted me by TG and surrendered control of Bulgaria. I'm passing it to RL, unless he wants me to take over the country.

I've still wondering what happened to SB, but that's his loss.

I'll finish Prince Boris' saga. After that, you may add a little more RP, but let's set the final borders and political disposition so that we can proceed forward.

When you've finished the (so-ever rightly named) saga, I'll add my little piece about the communist interrigation and then end it with threats of Blackmail towards Romania. That should give Bogey a legitmate reason to back off to his proposed 50% cutoff IC. Boris can then be reinstated as head of the now reduced Bulgaria, you and I can finalise the Albanian borders (no, I haven't forgotten about that :p ) as well as the possible creation of a (small) macedonian state and hopefully that should wrap up things in the Balkans.

Well, don't wait for me! At this point, the ending is all negotiation. We should do that here while I finish up Boris' tale on the RP side.

IOW, the Balkan Wars are essentially over. I don't see any more fighting (although I could be wrong).

IOW, the Balkan Wars are essentially over. I don't see any more fighting (although I could be wrong).
If my proposal is accepted, you could be wrong. :p

As always, I'll use this (http://abvg.net/Maps/Bulgaria.jpg) map for my discussion. My original demand were the two north-eastern provinces. I propose the following:

- those two provinces (Varna and Ruse) will be immediately annexed to Romania.

- the other two provinces north of the Balkan Mountains (Lovech and Montana) remain under Romanian administration.

- the other teritories currently occupied by Romania will be given to King Boris' administration.

- in exchange for Lovech and Montana, the Romanian army will help the Bulgarians conquer the Adrianople vilayet from Turkey.

- after the conquest is completed, Lovech and Montana will be annexed to Romania; if, for any reason, Bulgaria doesn't get Adrianople, the two north-western provinces will be given back to Bulgaria.

Here (http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/turkeyop.htm) you can see Edirne/Adrianople has an area of 38 389 Km sq. On the same site, but on a different page, (http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Europe/bulgarip.htm) you can see Montana has an area of 10 607 Km sq, and Lovech 15 150 Km sq. It's a more than a fair exchange. Part of the population in Northern Bulgaria could be colonised in the Adrianople province.

If whoever controlls Bulgaria agrees before 7 p.m. (the forum time), I'll be able to start the Third Balkan War tonight. If TA will also be around here, hopefully we'll finish the war tomorrow evening (from my perspective) or tomorrow afternoon, for the Americans.

Actually, it will be the Second Balkan War, since there's only been one. But I get your drift.

Now I'm going to read your proposal...

It's a more than a fair exchange. Part of the population in Northern Bulgaria could be colonised in the Adrianople province.It's more than a fair exchange until your next attack on Bulgaria, you mean. Then where will you resettle the Bulgarians? The Peloponnese?

It's more than a fair exchange until your next attack on Bulgaria, you mean. Then where will you resettle the Bulgarians? The Peloponnese?
The new borders could be guaranteed by you or any other Great Power, or more Great Powers at the same time.

I've made a decision. Well, two of them.

The first was easy.

Boris says “no dice”. Thank you for putting down the Communists, but you’re no longer needed. Don’t let the screen door hit you on the way out.

The second was harder.

I don’t bluff, but I can miscalculate. I thought we had enough military muscle to drive you out of Bulgaria, but I see now that we (meaning me and my allies) don’t. So we're going to have to do this the hard way.

The border with Roumania is hereby closed. Nothing in, nothing out. No exceptions. We’ll deal with hardship cases on our side. Screw the hardship cases on yours.

Moreover, we’ll lean on Albania to close their border (which they’ll do), and then ask Greece and Serbia to close their borders. Serbia might laugh at me, but if they do we cab make it a real long wait at their border...

I'm also asking Turkey to close the Turkish Straits to your shipping. Neutral flag shipping is to be inspected, and we’ll ask that ships that violate the quarantine will be denied future access to the Straits, Don't worry, well put a couple of warships in the Black Sea to watch who comes and goes.

That leaves Russia. You will be completely dependent on Russia for everything, and we’re going to exert the maximum possible influence on the Tsar to turn off the spigot.

So that's your future. Roumania will be a Russian colony or a pariah. You can grow all the grain and drill all the oil you want, but good luck selling any of it - or buying anything, either.

If you don’t like it, go whine to France. Maybe they’ll come attack me to break the embargo. Yeah, right.

Oh, and my troops are staying put in front of Sofia. We’ll just dig in and break out the popcorn.

Boris says “no dice”. Thank you for putting down the Communists, but you’re no longer needed. Don’t let the screen door hit you on the way out.
I remember you said RL was in charge of Bulgaria. Now it seems like you are.

That leaves Russia. You will be completely dependent on Russia for everything, and we’re going to exert the maximum possible influence on the Tsar to turn off the spigot.
Is this why you've asked Voxio to be Russia?

That leaves Russia. You will be completely depend]nt on Russia for everything, and we’re going to exert the maximum possible influence on the Tsar to turn off the spigot.Is this why you've asked Voxio to be Russia?No. Right now Relative Liberty is playing Russia. Do you think he's going to be any more favorable to your interests? :p

I thought Voxio ought to take the job because he doesn't have as much of a vested interest in Russia's actions. I recall when RL took Russia over, you labelled it a possible conflict of interest. Have you changed your mind? Is there someone else you'd like to suggest instead?

Vis-à-vis the embargo, I don’t expect Russia to cut you off. But I do expect you’ll pay a heavy price for Russia’s favour. Being a Russian economic colony won’t be pretty.I remember you said RL was in charge of Bulgaria. Now it seems like you are.<shrugs>

Ask RL then. See what he says.

I bet you'll get the same answer; any other answer would be way OOC.

Further comment: My request that Voxio take over Russia has nothing to do with you and never did. I made that request before you made your proposal (you can check with Voxio).

No offence to RL, but Germany in 1910-15 was arguably the most powerful nation in the world. It was certainly the most powerful in Europe, with a huge first-rate army, an excellent rail system, the world’s second or third largest economy (depending on how you measure such things – they didn’t track GDP in those days), and a d_mn_d good navy to boot. Only Russia’s army was larger, and there was no question that, in a straight up fight, Germany could eat Russia’s lunch. In fact, from 1914-17, they did.

The truth is that Germany can take any two continental opponents at once, and possible three adversaries simultaneously. Under the circumstances, this puts everybody else at a terrible disadvantage – the rest of Europe must tread lightly lest Germany read them the Riot Act.

Now, if Germany can – by controlling Russia – hold itself immune from the threat of a war with Russia, then its power becomes that much greater; indeed, the degree to which Germany can dominate Europe becomes utterly overwhelming. Now historically, this was more a source of aggravation for France and Russia than a menace, and a source of comfort to the Dual Monarchy. But that was with Kaiser Wilhelm II alive and in charge of a satisfied Germany.

The term “satisfied state” had been used to describe nations that are happy with the status quo and want nothing but peace. From 1871 to 1914 (in RL; to 1911 in our RP) “Bismarckian” Germany was such a state. If Germany threw its weight around like the proverbial 800lb. gorilla (and it did), it was in the name of maintaining European stability, not building a bigger Reich.

“What keeps the peace of Europe,” Wilhelm II once remarked, “Is me and my 26 army corps.”

With Wilhelm II’s death, that has changed. We don’t know what von Richthofen’s Germany is. His use of events from Hitler’s political career (the Riechstag fire, the creation of a secret police force and the SS, the arrest and liquidation of leftists, rearmament and the push to build a large air force and an armoured car [precursor to the tank]) all suggest a pre-Nazi or Paleo-Nazi regime (without the anti-Semitism); if this is indeed indicative of Germany’s temper, than our 800lb. gorilla is now the very antithesis of a “satisfied state”. Instead, it looks like “Hitlerian” Germany - a nation bent on creating a New World Order.

I don’t know if the ambiguity in Germany’s foreign policy is deliberate or not (it probably is), but in anything approaching a realistic environment, Russia would be present to exert a counterweight to these ambitions. But that’s not the case here. Relative Liberty has steered a neutral course for Russia, but neutrality on Russia’s part is tremendously advantageous to Germany.

Now, on to Boris.

I could give you a dozen reasons why Boris should refuse your offer. The best is this: it would disgrace the memory of those who have died for him.

The dry geopolitical reasons are many and arguable. At best, this makes Bulgaria your cat’s paw: it commits a nation that has just been through a dreadful upheaval to further war, and for little real gain. It makes Bulgaria your partner in crime, alienates the nations who have stood up for its independence while leaving it wholly in the clutches of one that clearly wishes to absorb it.

As for great power guarantees, they mean nothing. Thanks to the protection afforded by our non-aggression pact, you have openly defied the Grand Alliance, daring it to do anything to stop you. Why should Bulgaria believe that you’ll suddenly reverse course and be scared of the coalition arrayed against you in the future if you thumb your nose at them today?

But the biggest reason, again, is the first. Why should Boris agree to become just another of your whores – a Stambolisky … er, Quisling? A King should comport himself with more dignity, even if it means going into exile.

At the worst, he knows that he takes the hearts of his people with him.

But - as you said - this is RL’s call. It’s his Europe, after all. ;)

One more comment: I’m in the opposite position from New Dracora, who has to try hard not to like The Andromedan (and thereby go OOC w/re to Greece’s antagonism toward Turkey).

I actually like you – you’re a good player – but obviously your actions have placed our countries on a collision course. In fact, you’ve now surpassed Serbia as my first concern.

What I can’t figure is how you didn’t see this coming, and why you didn’t employ more finesse. In the default outcome of the Balkan Wars I gave you a huge victory: all you had to do was waltz in, kill the Communists, pocket your ill-gotten gains after throwing a scrap to the Greeks, restore the monarchy under whatever sovereign I dug up, go ahead and insist on naming Stambolisky as the new PM, and then run Bulgaria as a puppet ally in his name (since the sickly son of Spain would have been too weak and too far away to stop you). You could have promoted (and corrupted) a couple of key generals and - voila! - had yourself the same arrangement Warta Endor has in Siam. Maybe you could have even eventually toppled the monarchy and created a corrupt puppet republic or dictatorship. There were lots of possibilities

But you didn’t take what was there for the taking. You went for outright annexation. A big win wasn’t good enough. You wanted a huge win, all the marbles in a pretty brown bag. That was what forced me to step in again and try to impede your progress.

How many people have you threatened? Greece and the Porte, explicitly. Me indirectly. Serbia and Albania implicitly (your denial means little, considering your history – a few months ago you were on the side of Bulgaria, remember)? Who have you befriended and stuck with? What’s the limit on your ambition? By showing none, you have destroyed any basis for anyone to trust you (and by implication France, which already has similar problems).

I like you as a RP’er, but I can’t make any more deals with you as a nation. I might renew the NAP in 1915 and I might not, but either way you’re not going to be on my Christmas list.

You can go a long way toward lessening tensions if you RP’ed some change in your military posture that would make you less of a threat to me. You may laugh and say that 850,000 men can’t beat 2.5 million, but in fact they can – if you give them 12 days to launch an all-out surprise attack against which no defence can be mounted. And I’m supposed to agree (as the Dual Monarchy, not as any of my proxies) to annexations that will raise the size of that army by another 25%, to over 1 million men?!?

It’s all action-reaction, as I told the Serbs. If you want a better situation, you should try to create an environment in which your neighbours don’t feel that you’re out to get them.

But then, this is NationStates, where the Balkans and the Middle East seem tame by comparison.

As my vow in after the orgional Balkan War, I insist to defend the Balkan Nations, not to deter their will and spirit. I Bulgaria plans to threaten the other Balkan nations, I will have to intervene. I personally can ready my battle-hardened retrained 4th army (numbering 140,000) and send it into the defense of Greece Serbia, Montenagro, Albania, and most definatley the Dual Monarchy. I advise for Bulgaria not to toy with its military strength, the last thing we need in the Balkans in a power-hungry threatening despotism thats acting tough. :p

My actions in the Balkan War, as I see them:

1) I have backstabbed Bulgaria. This was, however, completely historical. I don't think that I surprised anybody.

2) After that, I tryed to take over the entire country; an ambitious task, I admit.

3) I requested that Serbia and Greece pull back from Bulgaria; this was perceived as an agression, but it was in fact my desire to be safe from them.

4) My proposal to help Bulgaria aquire the vilayet of Adrianople was meant to sweeten the pill for them, to make it easier for them to accept losing the two extra provinces. I must admit I was also annoyed Turkey wanted to attack me after being saved by Romania, so that was part of my reason too.

5) I really don't know how have I threatened Albania. As for Serbia, Slavic Byzantium was no longer in control of it, it seemed, so I didn't want armies with an uncertain loyalty at my back. If a new player takes over Serbia, he might use those armies to threaten me, which I obviously don't want.

This being said, I'll wait for the events in Europe to unfold and I'll choose my actions accordingly.

EDIT: TA, I agree Bulgaria is the greatest threat to the stability in the Balkans. Let's attack it together. :p :D :p

EDIT: TA, I agree Bulgaria is the greatest threat to the stability in the Balkans. Let's attack it together. :p :D :p

ROFL, I'm actually going to suggest that you go ahead TA, I mean your Turkey - your supposed to be making life difficult for me. :p

After all, Greece used to be a part of the ottoman empire before we rebelled and stuff. ;)

Maybe one of you can TG SB and see if he's quit. He's not talking to me. :p

Since we're past the deadline, Serbia has withdrawn from Bulgaria per Roumania's request.

My actions in the Balkan War, as I see them:

1) I have backstabbed Bulgaria. This was, however, completely historical. I don't think that I surprised anybody.

2) After that, I tryed to take over the entire country; an ambitious task, I admit.

3) I requested that Serbia and Greece pull back from Bulgaria; this was perceived as an agression, but it was in fact my desire to be safe from them.

4) My proposal to help Bulgaria aquire the vilayet of Adrianople was meant to sweeten the pill for them, to make it easier for them to accept losing the two extra provinces. I must admit I was also annoyed Turkey wanted to attack me after being saved by Romania, so that was part of my reason too.

5) I really don't know how have I threatened Albania. As for Serbia, Slavic Byzantium was no longer in control of it, it seemed, so I didn't want armies with an uncertain loyalty at my back. If a new player takes over Serbia, he might use those armies to threaten me, which I obviously don't want.

This being said, I'll wait for the events in Europe to unfold and I'll choose my actions accordingly.

EDIT: TA, I agree Bulgaria is the greatest threat to the stability in the Balkans. Let's attack it together. :p :D :pOK, so now that I know your motives, what are you going to do if Bulgaria refuses your demands and simply issues a counterdemand that you leave?

<posting as my puppet again (PAMPA)>

Since we're past the deadline, Serbia has withdrawn from Bulgaria per Roumania's request.
That's good enough for me.

OK, so now that I know your motives, what are you going to do if Bulgaria refuses your demands and simply issues a counterdemand that you leave?
Who are you? Anyway, it depends on what forces can Bulgaria bring to back their claims.

Who are you? Anyway, it depends on what forces can Bulgaria bring to back their claims.TRT is yet another NO puppet.

What I'm asking is if we can end this war?

What I'm asking is if we can end this war?
At the moment, Bulgaria controls Plovdiv and parts of the Sofia province. I am ready to pull back from the Sofia, Khaskovo and Burgas provinces, which will more than double the area they currently control. I'm also available, if they want, to help them get the Adrianople vilayet, which will treble the area controlled by Boris. In short, at the moment I don't see any danger for Romania that might force me to accept other terms (of course, I could be wrong, but that's my impression).

Let me see if I get this right.

When Boris reveals himself, you'll withdraw to the line of the Balkan mountains (and, BTW, in rereading the thread I did in fact find that you had said that you were going into Plovdiv to root out the last Communists).

Question is, what will become of the United Kingdom of Bulgaria and Roumania, and of Prince Carol's claim to the the throne of Bulgaria? Will these claims be maintained or withdrawn?

I haven't decided how to RP Boris being revealed to the world. That (and time) are the reasons why I ended at the completion of the flashback saga.

I've also been asked to verify whether Boris is indeed a possible Bourbon heir (another reason why he has been kept in seclusions [not to mention physical recovery from his ordeal]). At the moment, I'm still working on that...

You know what? This Balkan War is starting to get boring and we are in a stalemate. I was going to say I will just sit tight on my current positions, but I changed my mind while writing this post. I'll settle for the two north-eastern provinces and some small war reparations in compensation for my spending (it shouldn't be much, since I really didn't fight seriously; also, I won't add the weapons given to the Communists to the reparations :) ).

It's only boring because the war was over when the Communists were taken down (a week or two ago), and we're just haggling over the final division of assets. ;)

Boris will reluctantly accept your annexation. What are you doing about the claims to his throne, and while we're at it who is currently King of Roumania (I seem to recall some abdications)?

Also, do you want Stamboliski to continue to be a figure in Bulgarian politics? I could probably arrange that with a little more RP (this is one of the reasons I stopped at the Germans' rescue of Boris...)

Finally, as sweetener, I will drop my plans for an embargo and demobilise if you agree to do this.

BTW, have you gotten any response out of SB?

Since Boris is alive, the claim drops.

The abdication you remember is that of Carol I of Bulgaria, who abdicated in favor of Carol I of Romania (these guys should have chosen different names, it gets confusing :) ). The abdication had only the purpose of uniting Romania and Bulgaria. Since the Bulgarian heir was found, the union is now dissolved. The Romanian king king is still Carol I. In 1914, he'll die and be succeded by his nephew, Ferdinand.

Stambolisky will remain in the Bulgarian politics only if Boris introduces universal suffrage, since his main base of support were the peasants. If I were in Boris' place, I wouldn't trust him, seeing how he colaborated with the Romanians. Even in real life, IIRC, Boris disliked Stambolisky. We will continue to support him, however; his assasination will be considered a casus belli and I hope he will remain prime-minister.

I think everybody can now demobilise, so I agree to this. When you'll decide the borders of Albania, Geece etc, I'd like an invitation from you, to plead the case of the Aromanians. I don't want anything fancy, only a separate church (right now they can only choose between the Bulgarian church and the Greek church) and their right to learn in Romanian (after the Balkan Wars, their schools - not too many from the beginning - were gradually closed down).

I'll send SL a message right now.

Since Boris is alive, the claim drops.O.K.Stambolisky will remain in the Bulgarian politics only if Boris introduces universal suffrage, since his main base of support were the peasants. If I were in Boris' place, I wouldn't trust him, seeing how he colaborated with the Romanians. Even in real life, IIRC, Boris disliked Stambolisky. We will continue to support him, however; his assasination will be considered a casus belli and I hope he will remain prime-minister.We'll RP something as part of the wrap-upI think everybody can now demobilise, so I agree to this. When you'll decide the borders of Albania, Geece etc, I'd like an invitation from you, to plead the case of the Aromanians. I don't want anything fancy, only a separate church (right now they can only choose between the Bulgarian church and the Greek church) and their right to learn in Romanian (after the Balkan Wars, their schools - not too many from the beginning - were gradually closed down).The Albanians are willing to negotiate this. How close is the Romanian Orthodox Church to Rome at this point in time?

I may have to wait a bit for demobilisation. We have to work out what Russia is going to do. :eek:I'll send SL a message right now.Thanks. If he's no longer in the game, I vote that Montenegro and Serbia will remain neutral unless I end up in a war with Russia, in which case they will join the Russian side.

The Romanian Orthodox Church is not particularly close to the Catholic Church (not on hostile terms, either), but many (about half, maybe) of the Romanians in the Dual Monarchy are Greek-Catholics, so they are actually part of the Catholic Church. I'd say they are very close to Rome. And now I'm really going. :p

Edit: I forgot. I've already sent SL a message. Now I'm waiting for a reply, but he hasn't visited his nation for one week, so I'm not very optimistic. Now I'm realy realy going.

Hey guys, I just bought a new guitar, a Squire Bullet, it's pretty sweet. Anyone here play???

I guess when people start talking about guitars, the thread is over... ;)

I think we can wrap up borders (political and ecclesiastical) in RP. There's no hurry; working out the details would probably take the junior diplomats several months...

TA, get ready for the Arabian thread...

I heard from SB, so he's still in the game.

Just a question of statistics: I estimate the population of the teritory aquired by Romania at 900 000 people (200 000 Turks) and its area at almost 23 000 square Km. I used these sites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_Bulgaria

http://www.nsi.bg/Census_e/Census_e.htm

http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Europe/bulgarip.htm

You can redo my calculations if you wish, but they are as accurate as possible (says I very modestly ;) ).

Well, LOL, ok. Just being curious, and about France getting this wild idea about being the protector of the Catholics in the Porte. Of course not, I award the title to "My Favorite Monarchy" (*drumroll*) The Dual Monarchy of Austria-Hungary. (*cheers*) (*bellows*) (*sobs-from-the-french*).
I expect you to give a speach about how you won this award, you know, like all the rappers. ;)

Ok, I really want to get this arabian thread started, because i cant wait for more land to be robbed viciously from me (not sarcasticly speaking). Who will be participating in this thread, so far i know there will be
-The Sublime Porte (me)
-Great Britian
-Arabia
-Dual Monarch of Austria Hungary

Ok, I really want to get this arabian thread started, because i cant wait for more land to be robbed viciously from me (not sarcasticly speaking). Who will be participating in this thread, so far i know there will be
-The Sublime Porte (me)
-Great Britian
-Arabia
-Dual Monarch of Austria HungaryTA, start using the main threads and not this one. I want to reserve these threads for the final border settlements and post-action RP, and I believe that the Porte's role in this war is done.