NationStates Jolt Archive

This is the OOC thread for the Balkan Wars, part of the Age of Imperialism Campaign (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=433496&page=1&pp=15); you have to be part of that campaign to play in this one. The RP thread is here (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9324182#post9324182).

While not all sides have been filled in the RP of the Balkan Crisis of 1909-1912, some have been. I'll repeat the list:
Ottoman Turkey a/k/a "the Porte" (The Andromedan)
The Kingdom of Serbia (Slavic Byzantium)
The Kingdom of Greece (New Dracora)
The Kingdom of Bulgaria (Lachenburg [proxy])
The State of Albania (not taken - most closely aligned with Turkey, then Austria-Hungary)
The Kingdom of Montenegro (Slavic Byzantium [as a puppet of Serbia])
The Kingdom of Italy (Voxio)
The Austro-Hungarian Empire a/k/a "the Dual Monarchy" (Narodna Odbrana)
The Kingdom of Romania (Bogmihia)Nations in red do not have players.

I think that RP should begin in 1910. This means that some of the key events in the crisis are behind us: the Young Turks have taken power in the Porte, Bosnia-Herzegovina has been annexed, and both Bulgaria and Crete have broken free of Turkish rule (Bulgaria has formally achieved its independence, while Crete still awaits the permission of the Powers to join Greece (historically, this happened when the First Balkan War broke out, and was recognised by the Turks in the peace that ended the war; thus, securing Turkish agreement to the annexation of Crete is one of Greece's political aims.

Albania comes into existence in the spring of 1912, unless the Young Turks alter their ill-advised policies toward their European territories.

I believe that Montenegro should be played by the Serbs as a puppet (it was throughout the period - and pretty much still is today).

It is important to note that Italy's conquest of Tripoli spurred the Balkan League to action. Had Italy not taken over Tripoli, it might have taken a little longer for the League to organise (but not to act; the Albanian revolt and the massacres, especially of Bulgarians, that followed, were the stimulus for the war; had Italy not moved against Tripoli, there probably would have still been a war, but the League would have fought in somewhat more disorganised - and possible less cooperative - fashion).

The Dual Monarchy did not become militarily involved until Serbia began to threaten Albania, and even then only threatened the use of force. Most of the Dual Monarchy's involvement was diplomatic, trying to moderate the actions of the Young Turks, who meant well but went ahead with idiotic policies anyway (they were actually trying to end sectarian violence rather than foment it, believe it or not!).

Serbia has raised the question of whether the Balkan League will fall out over the spoils of war. If they fight Turkey and win as easily as they did (which is likely), then the answer is that the League probably will turn on each other and start a Second Balkan War in 1913.

As the German Empire ha some influence, as well as interest, in the Balkan peninsula, I will monitor the situation.

May I please play as the Ottomans, i'm from there, I worship Allah, I'm a sunni muslim!

You can join as the Ottoman Empire, but you need to sign up in the ooc thread.

Linky:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=433496&page=13&pp=15

May I please play as the Ottomans, i'm from there, I worship Allah, I'm a sunni muslim!Do sign up (please!), and then contact me (the k.u.k player [most people call us "the Austro-Hungarian Empire", which is as inaccurate as calling Turkey "the Ottoman Empire" {formally, it's "the Sublime Porte"}]). I am working to try and de-fuse the impending Balkan Crisis (the one that led to the Italo-Turkish War (1911-1912) and the First (1912-1913) and Second (1913) Balkan Wars.

Right now, Warta Endor (Japan) is handling the Porte, but I'm sure that he'd let you take over. Then I'd love for you to read the RP thread (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9332344#post9332344), which contains the history behind this crisis and my first diplomatic moves. After that, check out the main Age of Imperialism RP thread (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=433959&page=1&pp=15) and post a factbook to the Age of Imperialism factbook thread (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=433504&page=1&pp=15).

And, again, welcome aboard!

BTW: The Bosniak regiments of the k.u.k. army were awesome! Anyone who thinks these people had no loyalty to the regime are crazy.

I salute your ancestors for their bravery.

Thank You very much, and a little word of advice is to stop using the term Bosniak, because in some places in Bosnia, it is considered a racist term and my mom says its a racist term (lol).

Thank You very much, and a little word of advice is to stop using the term Bosniak, because in some places in Bosnia, it is considered a racist term and my mom says its a racist term (lol).I'm using it because it's the term that the Austrians used. But thanks for the heads up, and I can RP the gradual transition to a different term.

It's kind of like some of the things my government has said about Jews; the Austrians were pretty anti-Semitic, so it's IC; people just have to live with that. In a similar vein, it would be odd for the American player to speak of "African-Americans" rather than Negroes, even though a lot of people would consider the latter term racist. That's one of the dangers of history: we have to realize that people back then believed things we'd shudder at today (and vice-versa)

Besides, it implies that the people of Bosnia and Hercegovina aren't Serbs. ;)

If you try to forcibly convert the Christians of your Balkan territories to Islam, I guarantee you that you will have no Balkan territories by this time next week. Not that I'll be the one who takes them from you; it will be the Balkan League, whose military might you can not match.

Historically, I was hoping that you'd follow in the footsteps of the "Young Turks", but with a little more wisdom: their policies in the European territories between 1908 and 1912 fomented massacres and ultimately drove the Balkan League to attack them en masse.

Personally, I would like to see the Porte regain its might and keep Britain out of the Middle East, while vying with Russia for control of Central Asia. I'm less interested in you going after France, because (for now) France and I are allies (necessary for my security).

So I recommend to you cutting a deal with Italy in Tripolitania, reversing your domestic policies vis-á-vis the settlement of Albanians in Thrace and Macedonia and the conscript of your Christian subjects, and trying to make peace with Greece, preferably by giving the Crete (which you no longer control anyway). That will weaken the Balkan League enough that you may stand a chance of holding it off (and may deprive them of causus belli to boot). Once you've done that, we can talk.

And rather than become radical, I'd prefer that Turkey become more secular - to follow the path of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemal_Ataturk), except (of course) for abandoning imperialism.

So I recommend to you cutting a deal with Italy in Tripolitania...
The Kingdom of Italy would be interested in an offer. :)

I always liked the Ottoman Empire...

The Kingdom of Italy would be interested in an offer. :)

I always liked the Ottoman Empire...We would be willing to host talks aboard the flagship of our navy, Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand (http://navalhistory.flixco.info/images/AH%20erzherzog%20franz%20ferdinand.JPG), at anchor off our naval base at Pola.

Reply in the RP thread...

REVOLUTION!!!
As you well know, over the last 300 years, poverty and corruption has striken our fair empire. Within the last 50 to 60 years, radical nationalists that call themselves the "Young Turks" or the "Committee of Union" have led insurgent attacks, ralleys and critizized the Porte for as far as we can remember, today, they have won. In Istanbul, a Young Turks follower, with the help of the Janissary Corps, overthrew Sultan Abdul Hamid. They plan to install a fair, democratic system, where the government is led by 1 strong leader, then a parliment that elects the leader and watches him carefully. The young turk leaders; Enver Pasha, Mehmed Talaat, Ahmed Djemal have made themselves parliment members, while the populace votes for the other 12 members. Ahmed Djemal said "we should have a working democratic system by next year, we didn't expect to overthrow the Sultan so quickly, but, it worked out didn't it?".
Also, families are advised to stay inside in some parts of the Ottoman, while the capital in Istanbul is safe, there have been reports of anarchy and increased hostility in the regions of Syria, Cyprus, Tripoli, Albania. Janissary troops will be serving as police for the next year, we hope these hostities will decrease

Due to our current situation of rebellion, we are afraid to say that we cannot give up the land until hostiliies decrease, we would be pleased to sell you Tripoli when the time has come, in a year or so when we have elected our Consul. Again, we are sorry for this delay, and we wil contact you when the consul is elected.

The Sublime Porte would like to buy 300,000 of your Gewehr 98 Rifles to further modernize our troops. I hope further trade between our two empires will continue to flourish.

To the Andromedan

I hope you don't mind, but this is the OOC (Out of Character) thread. Here you post as yourself. If you want to role-play, the proper place is the Balkan Wars - RP Thread. Unfortunately, I don't know how to make a link to send you directly there, but I've seen you posting there, too, so I guess you know where it is.

OCC: For URL links, simply click on the little Globe on the toolbar above the text box.

Thanks.

What's going on with Voxia and the Andromedan? If I'm not mistaken, it's 1911 or 1912. We should be having an Italo-Turkish war about now or at least some heated negotiations for Cyrenaica and Tripolitania.

What's going on with Voxia and the Andromedan? If I'm not mistaken, it's 1911 or 1912. We should be having an Italo-Turkish war about now or at least some heated negotiations for Cyrenaica and Tripolitania.I don't know. Let's give them a day or two...

I don't know. Let's give them a day or two...OK, this war isn't happening.

If we don't hear from Italy by tomorrow, I'm going to assume that the Italians and Turks don't reach the point of crisis in Tripolitania. Maybe the Young Turks don't push so hard, or maybe the Italians don't respond so strongly. The crisis is put on hold, but not abated until one of the two of them takes steps to call it off or set it ablaze.

No war in Tripolitania means that Italy doesn't foment an uprising in Albania. But that doesn't mean there's no crisis.

Greece not being played means that Athens is fixated on the status of Crete. They will join a war against the Turks, but they won't go out of their way to start one.

That leave Bulgaria, which was very aggressive due to the fact that most of the atrocities going on were against Bulgarians.

For now, we'll treat Bulgaria as a directed wild card. ;)

The Young Turks, though well-meaning, instituted policies that actually increased the persecution of Christians in the Balkans. Believe it or not, they were actually trying to eliminate sectarian violence!

So that's still going on, and at a certain point the Balkan League will act to stop it. The flash point was Macedonia (which included what we call today the FYROM - my, how some things never change). Serbia/Montenegro, you'll want to make sure your back is covered before taking military action. I've offered to have or Foreign Ministers meet, so we should probably do that.

Because the Italians aren't stirring the pot in Albania, the Turks have a little more time before things boil out of control. Let's say that if we don't hear from the Turks by Thurday (Fall 1912), then you can have the green light to begin planning for a campaign late in '12 or (more likely) in spring '13.

Sound good?

OK, this war isn't happening.

If we don't hear from Italy by tomorrow, I'm going to assume that the Italians and Turks don't reach the point of crisis in Tripolitania. Maybe the Young Turks don't push so hard, or maybe the Italians don't respond so strongly. The crisis is put on hold, but not abated until one of the two of them takes steps to call it off or set it ablaze.
I was thinking that, if Voxia and The Andromedan are not around here, things will be hapening as they had in the real world, which means the war actually took place. It's like Greece and Bulgaria; they are not controlled, so we presume they'll act as they really did.
No war in Tripolitania means that Italy doesn't foment an uprising in Albania. But that doesn't mean there's no crisis.

Greece not being played means that Athens is fixated on the status of Crete. They will join a war against the Turks, but they won't go out of their way to start one.

That leave Bulgaria, which was very aggressive due to the fact that most of the atrocities going on were against Bulgarians.

For now, we'll treat Bulgaria as a directed wild card. ;)

The Young Turks, though well-meaning, instituted policies that actually increased the persecution of Christians in the Balkans. Believe it or not, they were actually trying to eliminate sectarian violence!

So that's still going on, and at a certain point the Balkan League will act to stop it. The flash point was Macedonia (which included what we call today the FYROM - my, how some things never change). Serbia/Montenegro, you'll want to make sure your back is covered before taking military action. I've offered to have or Foreign Ministers meet, so we should probably do that.

Because the Italians aren't stirring the pot in Albania, the Turks have a little more time before things boil out of control. Let's say that if we don't hear from the Turks by Thurday (Fall 1912), then you can have the green light to begin planning for a campaign late in '12 or (more likely) in spring '13.

Sound good?
I agree with what you say about Greece and Bulgaria, but not about Albania. Since the war took place, there should be an uprising there.

Maybe we should see what Slavic Byzantium has to say about this situation, since he is the only one directly involved in the first war.

I was thinking that, if Voxia and The Andromedan are not around here, things will be hapening as they had in the real world, which means the war actually took place. It's like Greece and Bulgaria; they are not controlled, so we presume they'll act as they really did.

I agree with what you say about Greece and Bulgaria, but not about Albania. Since the war took place, there should be an uprising there.

Maybe we should see what Slavic Byzantium has to say about this situation, since he is the only one directly involved in the first war.I think it's unfair to say to them, "Hey, you weren't around, so we took the liberty of having you two fight a war."

The uprising in Albania would take place anyway. We could agree that it takes place in the Spring on 1912, or a little later (but no later than the Spring of 1913).

But we don't want to dogpile the Turks. Remember, the Saudis are attacking Mecca, too...

I think it's unfair to say to them, "Hey, you weren't around, so we took the liberty of having you two fight a war."
I don't think Italy would mind getting Tripolitania. :p But I agree in principle.

The uprising in Albania would take place anyway. We could agree that it takes place in the Spring on 1912, or a little later (but no later than the Spring of 1913).
Very well. I would let Slavic Byzantium choose the date, since I believe he will want to attack the Ottoman Empire when the Albanian revolt will take place and he said he doesn't have too much time to post this week.

But we don't want to dogpile the Turks. Remember, the Saudis are attacking Mecca, too...
You're right, I had almost forgotten about them. :eek:

I accepted Italy's offer for Tripoli! I have begun evacuation of the colony, I will stop the evacuation if they don't pay up. I believe that Italy should give me 5 new battleships for my navy, and some new designs for a "aeroplane". It is a small price for them.

oh yeah, and to slavic byzantium, I have allowed the spread of christianity in the balkan area (as long as it doesnt spread further) you may do as you wish for religion, and the new system will give you much more freedom. :p

Sorry for not showing up, but I lost access to the internet for a few days and I didn't bother to leave a message about it cuz...well at the time nothing had happened.

I'll post something in the RP thread in a bit.

Voxio and The Andromedan: Be sure that you don't create those 5 Italian battleships out of thin air. Italy should take 5 battleships from its future builds and designate those as being the ones it will send to the Porte. That means that, as we move into the 20's, the Italian Navy will be 5 BB's smaller than it would have been historically.

yeah, i understand, i expect 5 battleships by like, 8 years at most

:mad: IM IN CHARGE OF THE PORTE

Voxio and The Andromedan: Be sure that you don't create those 5 Italian battleships out of thin air. Italy should take 5 battleships from its future builds and designate those as being the ones it will send to the Porte. That means that, as we move into the 20's, the Italian Navy will be 5 BB's smaller than it would have been historically.
I have made a note of it, but I have no yet found information on Italy's armaments in the early 1900s. The closest I have is WWII ones.

I have made a note of it, but I have no yet found information on Italy's armaments in the early 1900s. The closest I have is WWII ones.http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/italian.htm
http://home.att.net/~wellsbrothers/Battleships/ItalianBBtable.html
http://members.fortunecity.se/mikaelxii/ww1/Italy/navy/Navy.html
http://www.warship.get.net.pl/Wlochy/Wlochy.html

Google is your friend.

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/italian.htm
http://home.att.net/~wellsbrothers/Battleships/ItalianBBtable.html
http://members.fortunecity.se/mikaelxii/ww1/Italy/navy/Navy.html
http://www.warship.get.net.pl/Wlochy/Wlochy.html

Google is your friend.
Thanks. For the record, exactly what terms did you search for?

Thanks. For the record, exactly what terms did you search for?"Italian navy 1915" and "Italian battleship 1915", for starters.

How would you like if I did this?You'd have three k.u.k. armies crossing your border before you completed the campaign.And then repeating the proces with the other Balkan statesI think Serbia would have something unkind to say about being annexed, but I'll let them address that point.Although my invasion plan is pretty neat, don't you think? :p It certainly is more detailed than Defuniak's, anyway.Anything is better than Defuniak's sorry RP of the "conquest" of Switzerland (he's just passed Yderia for the "Most Outrageous Wank of the Current Campaign" Award [for inviting Lenin and Trostky to tea with the Tsar :p ], so that's not a fair comparison. It's a pretty good RP. But...The Romanian kingdom declares war against Bulgaria for not respecting the rights of the Romanian minority living within its borders. 750 000 Romanian soldiers cross the border and overwhelm the 250 000 strong Bulgarian army in the battle of Varna. One week later, Plevna is taken after fierce fighting. A Romanian army manages to cross the Danube on pontoon bridges in the Vidin region, attacking the back of the retreating Bulgarian army. Caught in an envelopement maneuvre, the Bulgarians are competely destroyed. An army assembled in haste, composed of youths and old people, tries in vain to guard the Balkan Mountains' passes. After a short engagement, the army is routed. The road to Sophia is clear. Only 25 days after the begining of the hostilities, the first units of the Romanian army enter the Bulgarian capital, Sophia. The tsar flees to Turkey and his country is officially anexed two days later.Why don't you wait for the Balkan Wars (now imminent), and then fall on Bulgaria over the division of spoils (which Roumania actually did. I won't let you take the whole country, but you can take what Roumania took historically.

And with that, let's go start us a war!

Diplomacy is over ... and has failed.

I've seen nothing from The Andromedan to suggest that his policies of Ottomanisation are any different from those of the Young Turks, and so the proximate causes of the First Balkan War are, as of this moment, unchanged. His settlement with Italy has at best delayed the onset of hostilities by a few months (but no more).

Since insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly while expecting different results, and I (at least) am not crazy, I'm going to declare that the war will now certainly occur.

I'm still finishing the last pieces of the research puzzle, but it looks like the war was triggered by an Albanian revolt against the Porte, brought on by the refusal of the Porte to accommodate the interests of Albanians living throughout the remaining Ottoman territories. They took Skopje in May, and the army sent against them joined the revolt. This triggered a response by the Balkan League (Greece, Serbia, and Bulgaria).

Slavic Byzantium, if you haven't noticed, I'm pandering to the Kingdom of Greece to win them as an ally. You control Montenegro, considered a satellite of Serbia. Do you want me to play the Greeks, and shall we agree to Bulgaria's moves? Or do you want to play the Greeks and have me take the Albanian rebels? A lot depends on whether you think my initiatives toward Greece have given me enough influence there to sway their foreign policy.

I'll finish researching the Albanian uprising and start it tonight.

The Bulgarian invasion was just an example of how absurd the Swiss invasion was. And considering that two thirds of Switzerlands's inhabitants are Germans, I don't think Germany would have watched the invasion without doing anything (Italy might have done something, too, for there are many swiss of Italian origin; or again, maybe not, since Voxio is running the nation :p ; I'm mean, I know :D ).

I'm happy we're finally doing something in the Balkans. As for the demands, at the beginning of the second Balkan War, Romania had asked for the Cadrilater in exchange for its neutrality in the coming conflict. The proposal was refused and Romania had to take part in the war. I intend to ask for more if this will be the case, basically double the demands as to include the major port of Varna. In this moment, Romania has one important Black Sea port, Constanta, while Bulgaria has two, Varna and Burgas. I just intend to reverse the situation.

Here (http://www.photius.com/countries/romania/national_security/romania_national_security_the_romanian_army_in~10731.html) says the Romanian army reached Sofia. In these conditions, I don't think my demands could be considered as excessive. The site is not 100% accurate, I'm the first to admit it (Bukovina belonged to the K.u.K., not to Russia), but most of the info is correct.

What do you say, NA?

I'm happy we're finally doing something in the Balkans. As for the demands, at the beginning of the second Balkan War, Romania had asked for the Cadrilater in exchange for its neutrality in the coming conflict. The proposal was refused and Romania had to take part in the war. I intend to ask for more if this will be the case, basically double the demands as to include the major port of Varna. In this moment, Romania has one important Black Sea port, Constanta, while Bulgaria has two, Varna and Burgas. I just intend to reverse the situation.

Here (http://www.photius.com/countries/romania/national_security/romania_national_security_the_romanian_army_in~10731.html) says the Romanian army reached Sofia. In these conditions, I don't think my demands could be considered as excessive. The site is not 100% accurate, I'm the first to admit it (Bukovina belonged to the K.u.K., not to Russia), but most of the info is correct.

What do you say, NA?You have a good handle on the situation, and I'm confident you'll handle it well.

I'm not sure who I'll back at this stage: it depends on how the conflict evolves... (and how much influence I have in Athens, which is why I've begun staging warships to Crete). But I'll be more active in this war than the Dual Monarchy actually was.

I've almost finished my research...

Here is how the First Balkan War needs to unfold:

General

The rule in NationStates is that I can't make things happen to somebody else. This is problematic, since it would technically mean that it's up to the Porte to start this war, and he likely things he prevented it by posting this:Peace has been restored in the Sublime Porte, the further cultural movements by the Young Turks has been implamented as a massive nationalistic movement powered by the love of Islam. Further more, the brother of Enver Pasa, Cemal Pasa was elected consul of the Sublime PorteWhich, IMNSHO is right up there with Defuniak's classic post:Yesterday at 4:00p.m, The First Frenchman crossed the border. There was little resistance, due to bribes propaganda, and sheer fright. In all, only 3 French troops, A machine Gun, and a Biplane Were lost. Now Switzerland is gradually getting used to the change in their homeland....When a player won't handle a situation realistically, it's up to the rest of us to do it for him. :eek:

Therefore, someone else has to start the uprising that starts this war. I nominate (well, actually, history nominates) Serbia (Slavic Byzantium). ;)

Serbia (Slavic Byzantium)

You should make two posts: A diplomatic telegram to Greece, Bulgaria, and (if you wish) Roumania, calling for the formation of a Balkan League to defend their interests in the Balkans. Cite massacres of Serbs in Kosovo (that's how Serbs spell it) and Bulgarians in Macedonia. If you want, propose a division of the spoils (Thrace to be divided between Greece and Bulgaria, Macedonia between Bulgaria and Serbia, Albania between Montenegro, Serbia, and Greece, and Kosovo between Serbia and Montenegro (as an example). Make it Top Secret and backdate it to 1910.


A role-play (you can use my multi-part RP's as an example) in which Montenegro sends arms over the border into Albania and Serbia sends them over the border into Kosovo (I found out last night that they actually did this). Talk about how remote the border areas are and how weak the local Ottoman government is, and cite the growing unrest on the part of Albanians against the new Ottomanisation policies of the government in Istanbul. Talk about how the authorities have reneged on promises to permit Albanians to have their kids taught Albanian using the Latin alphabet in schools and other such outrages.Then, much as I hate to do it, we need to give the Ottoman a chance to respond. Maybe he'll make reforms, maybe he won't. Maybe he'll crack down and maybe he won't.

In the meantime, everyone should be preparing for war. You'll notice that I've started taking steps (mobilised two battalions of troops [1 line infantry and 1 mountain infantry] and sent them to Trieste, moved a battleship and an armoured cruiser to Crete, etc. You all should start taking steps as well. I'll begin drafting a new mobilisation plan (Plan "A", to accompany Plans "S" and "R") and paving the way for its use. You all should start arming your forces, and Serbia should probably arm Bulgaria (unless you want me to).

Assignment of Sides

We also need to break up the sides. This is what I have right now:Assigned

The Dual Monarchy (Narodna Odbrana)
Montenegro & Serbia (Slavic Byzantium)
Roumania (Bogmihia)
The Porte (The Andromedan)
Italy (Voxio)

Unassigned

Albania
Bulgaria
GreeceHere's my suggestion for how we break these unassigned nations up: Albania: Serb control before the First Balkan War starts, my control during the First Balkan War, then Romanian control during the Second Balkan War.


Greece: My control during the First Balkan War, then Serbian control during the Second Balkan War.


Bulgaria: Serbian control during the First Balkan War, then my control during the Second Balkan War.I think this avoids any problems, with the possible exception of Greek-Albanian fighting over Epirus; to address that issue, I'll let either of you step in and command Albania forces fighting to prevent Greek penetration into present-day Albania.

If no one objects to this division of command, let's proceed with the role-play!

Historical Notes

I will back up Serbia's initial posts with quotes from history books. Beyond that, what you need to know is this: The revolt began in Kosova (Albanians call it Kosova, Serbs Kosovo, so use the right ending depending on who you're posting as!) in May of 1912. There were revolts in June of 1910 (a big one, crushed in three months by a force of 20,000 Turks) and a smaller one (easily put down) in 1911. Assume the major infiltration of arms is over the winter of 1911-12.


At the height of the revolt, the Albanians had 45,000 men under arms.


They took Skopje (in Macedonia) in August, 1912.


The Porte realised that it could not take Albania back by force and began negotiations almost immediately after the fall of Skopje.


They declared independence in Vlora in November, 1912; it is probably no accident that this was after it was obvious that the Porte would be defeated.


The Balkan League invaded the lands of the Porte in October, 1912, just as peace was signed between the Porte and Italy. That was not coincidence. In the absence of an Italo-Turkish war, there should be more flexibility vis-á-vis the timing. Fall would be ideal due to the agrarian nature of the Balkan states, but if Turkey were to move earlier, an earlier invasion could be called to preempt them. All preparations by the League aimed at starting the war in October, however - and this was before the Italians and Turks settled their "harmless little war".Let's get this kicked off A.S.A.P.!

OCC: Since nothing too serious is happening up in Northern Europe at this time, I would like to inquire whether I could temporarily RP as one of the unclaimed nations you have stated above?

After all, I do believe that with enough players and a decent amount of activity from Major Powers in the conflict, the Balkan Wars could prove to be an exciting chapter in our RP and a great advertisment to those possibly interested in joining.

NA, there is already a Balkan League. It's just that Slavic Byzantium invited me in the main thread.

One more thing. I still don't know exactly what year is it, how fast is time flowing and when do we change years. If somebody could enlighten me, I'd be very gratefull.

I need to know this because I have an old king who will die in 1914. I want to know when to arrange his funeral. :D

OCC: Since nothing too serious is happening up in Northern Europe at this time, I would like to inquire whether I could temporarily RP as one of the unclaimed nations you have stated above?

After all, I do believe that with enough players and a decent amount of activity from Major Powers in the conflict, the Balkan Wars could prove to be an exciting chapter in our RP and a great advertisment to those possibly interested in joining.How about Bulgaria? Would everyone else accept that?

<PAMPA>

Wow, NO. You put a really lot of work in it. Want to RP it like RL, heh? (with a few small changes ofcourse) Would it be strange if Japan watches the situation? (send observers etc.)

I would expect it; the Europeans sent observers to the siege of Port Arthur in the Russo-Japanese war!

<PAMPA>

I was actually trying to kind of give up the balkan area (but still hold bosnia) and give it over to the serbians and croatians, but if they have stricken first, I will send diplomatic emmisarries to the balkan alliance to try and solve the lad problem there, further more, I am trying to make a strong alliance with italy by giving them tripoli and making positive propoganda.

P.S. I have mobilized 75,000 janissary musketeers to confront the balkan armies
:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

How about Bulgaria? Would everyone else accept that?

<PAMPA>


I'm fine with that.

One more thing. I still don't know exactly what year is it, how fast is time flowing and when do we change years. If somebody could enlighten me, I'd be very gratefull.

I need to know this because I have an old king who will die in 1914. I want to know when to arrange his funeral. :DLate 1911 and early 1912.

I have a Foreign Minister to kill off...

I was actually trying to kind of give up the balkan area (but still hold bosnia) and give it over to the serbians and croatians, but if they have stricken first, I will send diplomatic emmisarries to the balkan alliance to try and solve the lad problem there, further more, I am trying to make a strong alliance with italy by giving them tripoli and making positive propoganda.

P.S. I have mobilized 75,000 janissary musketeers to confront the balkan armies
:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:
You no longer have Bosnia, practically since 1878 and officially since 1908, when the K.u.K. formally annexed that province. Btw, are you sure that janissaries still existed in 1912? I doubt it (but I don't know for certain).

Hey guys, my friend andromedan told me that this RP thing was cool, can i join if you have any more open spots?

*Greece quickly removes it's NPC tag while no one is looking.*

Hey guys, my friend andromedan told me that this RP thing was cool, can i join if you have any more open spots?

Just revert to the page below and sign up for a country:

OCC Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=433496&page=1&pp=15)

There are still plenty of good nations left, so don't worry.

Oh, ok. I checked the list, and I have a question, i originally wanted to be serbia (cuz me and my friend andromedan are balkan), but it was taken. SO, i want to be australia and new zealand, because werent they together at that time??

They were both Inependant but strongly bounded to Great Britain. Officialy they were separate but I know that in most RP's it is handier to RP both nations. I'll tolerate that.

Oh, ok. I checked the list, and I have a question, i originally wanted to be serbia (cuz me and my friend andromedan are balkan), but it was taken. SO, i want to be australia and new zealand, because werent they together at that time??Militarily they were deployed together and fought together (as the ANZAC's). After WW II I think that New Zealand should be treated as a minor ally of Australia and Montenagro should just be considered in charge of the Aussies (using my concept of a "minor ally").

Hey, everyone! Update your factbook entries!

Should we have a mod move the extra posts from there to here?

For everyone: the year is 1914-1915, except in the Balkans, where we're about 2-3 years behind (it's 1911-1912). That is, unless everyone else wants to hold up a bit and "revert" to 1911-1912.

I'm very pesimistic about the chances of having a Balkan War before the rest of the world gets to the 1920's. :(

Well, as Australia, I believe their motives were to gain control over the Philipines (idk if i spelled it right) and Asia Minor in WW1, can I apply that if we have a WW1?

Well, as Australia, I believe their motives were to gain control over the Philipines (idk if i spelled it right) and Asia Minor in WW1, can I apply that if we have a WW1?AFAIK Australia did not have aggressive territorial designs of any kind. The Aussie operation in the Dardanelles was part of Britain's war strategy.

Right now you and Canada should be coordinating with the Brits on global strategy.

Which has nothing at all to do with the First and Second Balkan Wars.I'm very pesimistic about the chances of having a Balkan War before the rest of the world gets to the 1920's.Tell me about it. Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria need to get this thing going.

I think it's time that (at great risk to my future) I stirred the pot.

Tell me about it. Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria need to get this thing going.

My soldiers are already in the process of mobilizing. I'm just waiting for the Albanians to rebel and for the rest of the Balkans to explode.

My soldiers are already in the process of mobilizing. I'm just waiting for the Albanians to rebel and for the rest of the Balkans to explode.
You are part of the Balkan League. Technically speaking, if you declare war on Turkey, Greece, Serbia and Montenegro should automatically enter the war on your side. I (Romania) am also part of the league, but I don't have a common border with Turkey, so I'll just give you moral support. :D If somebody will RP the Albanians revolting, we might just get this war started. Amazing!

You are part of the Balkan League. Technically speaking, if you declare war on Turkey, Greece, Serbia and Montenegro should automatically enter the war on your side. I (Romania) am also part of the league, but I don't have a common border with Turkey, so I'll just give you moral support. :D If somebody will RP the Albanians revolting, we might just get this war started. Amazing!Didn't I say I was about to stir the pot?

Someone TG The Andromena, Slavic Byzantium, and New Dracora. Time we got this moving...

I'm going to start writing... :D

Data on the Greek military:

General Information (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWgreekA.htm)

Thessaly Army (East) (http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/greece/1stbalkanwar1912.html)
Epirus Army (West) (http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/greece/epirus1912.html)

Greek Macedonia Army (Second Balkan War) (http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/greece/macedoniaarmy1913.html)

Post-Balkan Wars (http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/greece/army1913-14.html)

Greek Navy (Capital Ships) (http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/greek_navy.htm)
Former U.S.S. Idaho (http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-i/bb24.htm), rechristened Lemnos (http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-fornv/greece/grksh-hl/lemnos.htm)
Former U.S.S. Mississippi (http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-m/bb23.htm), rechristened Kilkis (http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-fornv/greece/grksh-hl/kilkis.htm)
G(eorge). Avarof (http://www.bsaverof.com/uk/history.htm)
Greek Navy (1914) (http://www.naval-history.net/WW1NavyGreek.htm)
Greek Navy (http://www.warship.get.net.pl/Grecja/Grecja.html)

Greek Aircraft Types (http://koti.welho.com/msolanak/allaerosk.htm)

General Balkan War Information (http://www.balkanalysis.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=492)

The Partition of Macedonia (http://www.makedonija.info/partition.html)

OOC: Google is your friend! Search terms "Greek Army 1912" and "Greek Navy 1912"

Ah right... I see. Greek army 1912... yeah I suppose that WOULD make much more sense than what I was doing - searching for Greek army 1910.

:rolleyes:

Anywho... Cheers for that. *Starts reading*

Ah right... I see. Greek army 1912... yeah I suppose that WOULD make much more sense than what I was doing - searching for Greek army 1910.

:rolleyes:

Anywho... Cheers for that. *Starts reading*Yeah, in general, pick the year that the nation got embroiled in its first major war or our period. That's why I used "Italian Army 1915" and "Austria-Hungary Navy 1914".

<Posting as a Different Puppet [PAADP]> ;)

People, if you're going to claim huge numbers of men under arms (I'm looking at you, Roumania), I'll need you to post sources in the OOC thread. As far as I can tell, 750,000 men was the total of Roumanian men in service from 1916-18. They had maybe 400,000 for the Second Balkan War and 500,000 three years later for WWI. Also, one week mobilization time is almost unheard of - it took the k.u.k. forces 16 days to mobilize, and I'm only able to drop that to 13 days by mobilising just half of my army.

Again, I won't let myself be victimised by wanking. You have been warned.

My information thus far: Serbs: 10 divisions (5 corps)
Bulgarians: 10(?) divisions (5 corps), but their divisions are bigger than most
Ottomans: 24 divisions (8 corps), but theirs are 75% of the size of everyone else's, so look at the corps numbers.
Greeks: I've got their OOB, but I haven't counted.
Albanians: 95,000+ rebels (no OOB).
Montengrins: 1 corps (maybe); need research.
The Dual Monarchy (mobilised as of 3/17/1912, per RP): 16 corps (32 divisions), plus cavalry, mountain troops, reserve (ersatz) regiments, and extra artillery..
I'll post my OOB in the RP thread by tomorrow.

Regarding Vlach guerillas, it will take some time to organize this. Keep in mind that the Albanian revolts began in 1908-09 (historically; there were two failed rebellions prior to the First Balkan War, one in 1910 and one in 1911) , and my provision of arms to the Malissori was over the previous winter (1911-12; I gave a number of days for people to respond), to replace a RL Italian effort that never happened. At this point war is just weeks - and maybe even days (in NS time) - away. Then, too, just sending people and money is not enough; I RP'd smuggling 5,000 arms and 500,000 rounds of ammo over the Albanian coast, and that's just a downpayment on a rebellion (I will need to send much, much more).

To complicate things further, you have no common border with the Porte, so you must figure out how to get arms to those Vlach guerillas. Through Bulgaria? Serbia? Montenegro? Greece? Over the Aegean coast? Over the Adriatic coast? Steal them from the Turks (or bribe them from local officials)? I'll take the memo as a good first step (like my loading arms onto the SMS Istria and other coasters in Trieste), but you'll need more work.

And even then, I question whether you have the time - at least before this war explodes. Maybe they can be in place by the end of 1912, for a possible Second Balkan War...

Finally, a rising by 10% of all Vlach in the region is too high. There were over 1.5 million Albanians, and at the peak of their rising against the Porte they had maybe 95,000 rebels, and I will need to double-check that number (I could be 45,000; I plan on going back to my sources this evening). That's between 3% and 6% of all Albanians (6-12% of the male population). I doubt that we could expect a larger Vlach participation rate. Based on Albanian numbers, you should be able to raise between 15,000 and 35,000 Vlach across the entire area at peak effect, with maybe only 3,000 to 7,000 available during any rebellion's "incitement" phase).

For my purposes, I intend to treat the Albanians as a scattered force of between a division and a corps, centered (and able to operate solely in) the four Albanian vilayets. It looks like the best the Vlach could realistically manage would be a brigade- to division-sized operation, and even then that would only be possible if they could concentrate.

A more realistic way to use these forces would be to build ad hoc units of a fraction of their total strength for local operations. Thus, I will probably have the Malissori raise an effective brigade for operations in the Shkodër area, maybe another brigade in the Janinë area, and a division (or so) for use in Kosova and Manistir. Beyond that they may be able to mount a regiment- or battalion-sized raid into a nearby area, but that's it.

With the Vlach, then, you should figure that you can raise maybe a few regiments here and there (in identified strongholds), with maybe a brigade in one "capitol" stronghold, and then scattered companies and (maybe) a battalion now and then for raiding actions.

Keep in mind that these troops are all light mountain infantry. Also, the only reason I dare believe that the Albanians could defeat a Turkish division FTF is because, in taking Skopje in August of 1912, they actually did.

As far as I know, the Romanians started WWI with 750 000 soldiers. I said 800 000 because I would mobilize the maximum possible number of soldiers. In the second Balkan War, the Romanians used only about 500 000 soldiers. This (http://www.photius.com/countries/romania/national_security/romania_national_security_the_romanian_army_in~10731.html) is my source.

Regarding the mobilization, Romania was a narrow country. I was afraid you might attack me if I declared war on Bulgaria, so the plan was to send the bulk of the forces (500 000, let's say) to guard the Carpathians' passes. Except for the region south (east, actually :p ) of the Danube, no Romanian teritory is farther than 200 Km from the border with Transilvania. In these coditions, I figured it wouldn't take very long for the soldiers to get to their positions. Austria-Hungary is much larger and it needs to transport troops for much longer distances in order to get them where they are needed. A comparison between the two countries would be unrealistic. The rest of the soldiers (300 000 or only 250 000, if you want to be strict), would be sent against Bulgaria a little later.

I'll do this, I want you to know, only in the eventuality of a Greco-Bulgarian war against Turkey that will not include Serbia. I believe my troops will be able to keep the Bulgarians busy in the north, so they won't be able to fight the Turks in the south (or, maybe, the Bulgarian army will be in the south and they would have to switch them to the north). In either case, the Greeks (maybe the Albanians, too) would be the only ones still fighting the Turks effectively. It is my oppinion that the Turks can't lose in these conditions. They might even win an advantageous peace.

The Romanians' only worry would thus remain only A-H. In WWI, Serbia managed to fight back the Austrian army three times. The Carpathian Mountains separating Romania from Transilvania form an excellent natural barrier and I think my Romanians would manage to repeat the Serbians' exploits. Also, I have to state I wouldn't start a war without Serbia. However, this war would be in their interest. As long as Macedonia is under Turkish rule, they can hope to occupy part of it. If it goes to another state, their chances diminish considerably.

As for the Vlachs, I had already searched the web before seeing your post and I must agree with you. My first numbers were based on the fact that Montenegro, with a total population of 3-400 000, fielded 40 000 soldiers in the Balkan Wars. It is true an organized force could only appear by the end of 1912 (I didn't intend to use them before this date anyway; there is nothing in my post to suggest I did). Regarding their use, they would be best employed as guerilla and harassement forces, attacking isolated Turkish strongholds and making it impossible for them to control a certain region (I'm not talking about large areas; several villiges and a small town in a valley, for example). They would group in larger units only if a true war breaks out. In that case, they will form several clusters which will occupy and defend the teritories around the original strongpoints.

Finally, the problem of the weapons. You will notice I have sent the officers with money, not weapons. I don't intend to send them weapons from Romania(this would be almost impossible). They will buy them from Western companies and ship them using boats under many flags, to avoid rousing the Turks' suspicions. The ships' captains will only know they are carrying something "fishy". They will not know if they are bootlegging or transporting arms in their crates. Furtermore, they will not know to whom they are transporting their loads, since the men taking them over on the shore will not speak to them in Aromanian.

I hope this answers your concerns.

EDIT: After a lot of searching, I found this (http://www.actrus.ro/biblioteca/cursuri/istorie/babos_2/capitol_6.html) source. It's not in English, but at some point (chapter one, first paragraph) it says:

Efectivul mobilizat a fost de 833 601 oameni

I gather this means the Romanians mobilized 833 601 men (as in the Italian uomini). They only used half a million in the Second Balkan War because they didnt need to, not because they couldn't.

On mobilisation, remember that it's not marching speed but railroad timetables that made the difference. FWIW, every nation in Europe had a 14-day mobilisation plan, AFAICT. I'll accept a 10-day schedule for Roumania - but only if you're mobilising against me (not Bulgaria).

Remember that numbers include a lot of people who don't fight, and remember that at ~2% population growth per year (compounded), Roumania would have had 10% more men in 1916 than in 1912.

I'm looking for a Roumanian OOB. Hopefully, I'll find one and that will settle the issue (because, as you've probably noticed, I count army corps or divisions and not men; that's because almost everyone used corps of the same size [45,000-50,000 men; almost everyone defined a corps as "the number of men who can march past a single fixed point, in march column, in the course of a single day"]; thus the real measure of a nation's armed might is the number of corps it can field).

Anyway, that 800,000 seems high; it looks more like everything, including replacements, depot troops, the works. I also remain unconvinced as to whether this is the total of all soldiers mobilised throughout the course of the whole war or the number available at any one time.

http://reference.allrefer.com/country-guide-study/romania/romania195.html

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-11287.html

http://www.westfront.de/englisch/romania.htm

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/F/firstworldwar/comba_romania.html

All these sources show that Romania had an army between 750 000 and 860 000 (the last one).

To calculate the growth rate, I'll use the numbers given by the Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13224b.htm). In 1899, the population was 5,956,690. In 1910, it was estimated to 6,865,800.

6 865 800-5 956 690=909 110 net population growth in 11 years.

One percent of the initial population is 5 956 690/100=59 566.9

909 110/59 599.9=15.26% growth in 11 years, which means the growth rate was closer to 1% than to 2%. In only four years, the difference can't be over 5%.

I'll have to keep looking for figures regarding the mobilization speed.

I've found here (http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1621) the OOB. I counted 22 divisions, 5 cavalry brigades (calarasi - it's explained in a different thread that they are cavalry) and 2 heavy artilery brigades, plus a few more troops in different places. The non-english source says "23 divizii de infanterie; 2 divizii de cavalerie", which gives a total of 25 divisions. There are other units mentioned, too

I've found here (http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1621) the OOB. I counted 22 divisions, 5 cavalry brigades (calarasi - it's explained in a different thread that they are cavalry) and 2 heavy artilery brigades, plus a few more troops in different places. The non-english source says "23 divizii de infanterie; 2 divizii de cavalerie", which gives a total of 25 divisions. There are other units mentioned, tooD_mn. I'm impressed.

<Hastily scribbles reminder to destroy Roumania at some point in the not-to-distant future...> ;)

I don't want to fight with the Balkan League, how can i prevent this? Serbia, lets make a peace before this worthless bloodshed begins. :D

I don't want to fight with the Balkan League, how can i prevent this? Serbia, lets make a peace before this worthless bloodshed begins. :DThere you are!!!

You have a penchant for showing up at the last second. :rolleyes:

Read my proposal to avoid a war, and accept it. If you do that, then I will pledge use my influence (and, if need be, the three field armies now mobilised along my souther border) to help stop a war dead in its tracks.

If you have questions, TG me. There is no time to lose!

You are part of the Balkan League. Technically speaking, if you declare war on Turkey, Greece, Serbia and Montenegro should automatically enter the war on your side. I (Romania) am also part of the league, but I don't have a common border with Turkey, so I'll just give you moral support. :D If somebody will RP the Albanians revolting, we might just get this war started. Amazing!

Well then, let's get this on people! NO, would you mind getting things started with the Albanians?

I don't want to fight with the Balkan League, how can i prevent this? Serbia, lets make a peace before this worthless bloodshed begins.

You really can't, since Bulgaria is hell-bent on capturing Turkish territories in Macedonia, Thrace and beyond (to the walls of Constantinople) and you have yet to quell the now growing uprisings in Albania.

So I suggest you get those Armies of yours ready. Otherwise, your gonna have a bunch of Slavs dining in Constantinople before the year is out and I won't take mercy on any Moslem dogs in my path! ;)

I've found here (http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1621) the OOB. I counted 22 divisions, 5 cavalry brigades (calarasi - it's explained in a different thread that they are cavalry) and 2 heavy artilery brigades, plus a few more troops in different places. The non-english source says "23 divizii de infanterie; 2 divizii de cavalerie", which gives a total of 25 divisions. There are other units mentioned, too
I guess I'm the first person ever to quote myself. :D

Now I know why the 2 sources differ -apparently - on the number of divisions. In the English language source, three units are mentioned without a specification on their size: the Cernavoda bridgehead, the Bucharest fortress and the fortified zone Focsani-Namoloasa-Galati. All of them are commanded by Div. Generals, who, except for these units, are in charge of an Army Corps. It would be a bit far-fetched to presume that the units are Army Corps, but a Div. General must command at least a division. If we consider the Cernavoda bridgehead, the Bucharest fortress and the fortified zone Focsani-Namoloasa-Galati as divisions, then we get to a total of 25 divisions, like the non-English site.

Problem solved. :cool:

I don't want to fight with the Balkan League, how can i prevent this? Serbia, lets make a peace before this worthless bloodshed begins. :D
I see you've posted less than one hour after Jacksonia had asked for the Ottoman Empire. Hmm... This must mean something... I know! We should pretend we're giving Turkey to someone else more often. This way, we'll be hearing from you more often.

I don't want to fight with the Balkan League, how can i prevent this? Serbia, lets make a peace before this worthless bloodshed begins. :D

Oh no you don't. We're going to eat up your europian territories whether you like it or not, and then it's "the great idea" and beyond. :D

Considering of course, I don't have to permenantly ally myself with NO in order to thwart possibly evul world domination ambitions by romania. :p

Fear not, peaceniks; even at this late hour, k.u.k. diplomats toil to produce a last-second deal that will (once more) avert war...
Considering of course, I don't have to permenantly ally myself with NO in order to thwart possibly evul world domination ambitions by romania. :p"Hey sailor! Wanna dance?" ;)

You didn't notice my overtures?

More on the RP thread, very soon...

O.K. I'm mobilizing, the K.u.K. is mobilizing. What's next?

Greece: I have pulled out of Crete, the Dodecanese, and Selanik, sothey are yours now, i also have left all of greece alone and made only a defensive post around adriannople, i hope there can be peace between us.

Serbia and Montenagro: Well, i you want a war you got one, Come Into My Lands If You Dare, my new nationalistic system has worker wonderfully in recruiting troops in the porte. So do your worst... ;)

O.K. I'm mobilizing, the K.u.K. is mobilizing. What's next?

War, obviously.

Well, i you want a war you got one, Come Into My Lands If You Dare, my new nationalistic system has worker wonderfully in recruiting troops in the porte. So do your worst...

Oh, we shall enter your lands and drink from the hollowed out skulls of those who dare defy our glory *insert evil laugh here* :D

Greece: I have pulled out of Crete, the Dodecanese, and Selanik, sothey are yours now, i also have left all of greece alone and made only a defensive post around adriannople, i hope there can be peace between us.

Serbia and Montenagro: Well, i you want a war you got one, Come Into My Lands If You Dare, my new nationalistic system has worker wonderfully in recruiting troops in the porte. So do your worst... ;)You never had troops in Crete, so I'll take this to mean that you're surrendering your claim to the territory and permitting Greece to annex it. I would not recommend pulling out of Selanek (Salonika) until you've abandoned everything to the west of that, since that will isolate your 2nd Army in the Vardar Valley.

But what about Albania? Do you accept my demands vis-á-vis Albania?!?

Oh, and for the record it's Bulgaria that's about to eat your lunch...

Please post any RP actions that you're taking in the RP thread!

Operation Fall Grün...How orginal... :pOOC: It's how you say "Plan Green" (Fall literally means, "case", "scenario", or "plan"). Of course, it's that "green" part that you ought to wonder about. ;)OCC: I have yet to find an accurate Bulgarian Order of Battle, despite my constant search through Wikipedia and Google. However, I will eventually post one.OOC: I think I can get you one by this evening.

It's how you say "Plan Green" (Fall literally means, "case", "scenario", or "plan"). Of course, it's that "green" part that you ought to wonder about.

Yeah, I know (I'm quite well versed in Deutsch myself ;) ) but it was also the operation name of the German plan for a war against Czechoslovakia in 1937, but was abandoned beacuse of the Treaty of Munich.

Also, I could have sworn that 'Fall' meant Case. But what does it matter, as long as you get the point.

Ok, I'm sorry that I'm not posting as often as I should be, my Internet is unbelieveably slow, and crappy.

So I've made a huge defensive perimeter from Gallpoli to Adrianople, to Istanbul, the Albanian front was sent to serve with the KUK regiments to defend Albania, Crete and all the other territories were surrendered to Greece, scholars in Ankara are working on airplane designs, weapons are being bought from Germany, Hungaries treaty has been signed, more artillery is being placed in the defensive line, and right now, right now!... I have to use the little boys room...

Oh, we shall enter your lands and drink from the hollowed out skulls of those who dare defy our glory *insert evil laugh here* :D


Nice touch, the hollowed skulls part was very inventive. Thumbs up for you, cuz I'm still trying to formulate a come-back.

...the Albanian front was sent to serve with the KUK regiments to defend Albania...OOC: I will assume that to be my green light. Thank you, The Andromedan!

Please, please, please post to the RP thread! (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434313&page=1&pp=15)

The Bulgarians were organised into three field armies: 1st Army - Gen. Vasil Kutinchev (79,000)


2nd Army - Gen. Nikola Ivanov (123,000)


3rd Army - Gen. Radko Dimitriev (95,000)The country was divided into 9 military districts; on mobilisation, each raised a division, and two more divisions (for a total of 11) were raised from extra men called to the colours (at large). Each division (except for the 11th) had two brigades; the 11th had three. Overall, there were 288 infantry battalions.

5000 cavalry were raised as well (each district raised 2 cavalry squadrons for its district, so it's not clear whether these men were the cavalry from those 9 (original) divisions or additional cavalry. They were organised into a division and a brigade.

There was also a corps of Macedonian volunteers (numbering 16,000) and some militia. Different sources give different numbers of men, ranging from 300,000 to 600,000. You could split the difference and say that you had 450,000 men. ;)

Be warned that I'll probably make it to Skopje before you do; the Turks have agreed to let me enter their territory, which I'm doing - in some cases by rail.

Would anybody be overtly annoyed if I included in this IC thread a British Play for Iraq whilst the Turks attention is diverted to their European Colonies?

I ask because the other thread is in advance of this, so it would make more sense to post it here even though it is not strictly in the Balkans.

Would anybody be overtly annoyed if I included in this IC thread a British Play for Iraq whilst the Turks attention is diverted to their European Colonies?

I ask because the other thread is in advance of this, so it would make more sense to post it here even though it is not strictly in the Balkans.
The British only aquired Kuwait in 1914, IIRC, so it would be a bit early for Iraq. Anyway, you should have big difficulties there because of the climate and terrain. You can only advance on a narrow front, in the valleys of Euphrates and Tigris.

The British only aquired Kuwait in 1914, IIRC, so it would be a bit early for Iraq. Anyway, you should have big difficulties there because of the climate and terrain. You can only advance on a narrow front, in the valleys of Euphrates and Tigris.

OOC: I said Play, not invasion ;)

You can play in Iraq, as far as I am concerned. :p But I think NO is the man in charge here, so he should give you the green light.

The Bulgarians were organised into three field armies: 1st Army - Gen. Vasil Kutinchev (79,000)


2nd Army - Gen. Nikola Ivanov (123,000)


3rd Army - Gen. Radko Dimitriev (95,000)The country was divided into 9 military districts; on mobilisation, each raised a division, and two more divisions (for a total of 11) were raised from extra men called to the colours (at large). Each division (except for the 11th) had two brigades; the 11th had three. Overall, there were 288 infantry battalions.

5000 cavalry were raised as well (each district raised 2 cavalry squadrons for its district, so it's not clear whether these men were the cavalry from those 9 (original) divisions or additional cavalry. They were organised into a division and a brigade.

There was also a corps of Macedonian volunteers (numbering 16,000) and some militia. Different sources give different numbers of men, ranging from 300,000 to 600,000. You could split the difference and say that you had 450,000 men. ;)

Be warned that I'll probably make it to Skopje before you do; the Turks have agreed to let me enter their territory, which I'm doing - in some cases by rail.


Excellent, I shall make changes to my post accordingly. My thanks go out to NO for his remarkable talent for procuring research, as my attempts failed horribly.

Damn...

You can play in Iraq, as far as I am concerned. :p But I think NO is the man in charge here, so he should give you the green light.Nah, I'm not in charge, just doing reality checks.

You should raise an army in India in you want to snag Basra. Just remember to have them get all their shots. ;)

Peace!? How are my SS troops ever going to get combat experience now :(

EDIT: Posted as puppet.

Peace!? How are my SS troops ever going to get combat experience now :(

EDIT: Posted as puppet.
Yes, I understood you're Germany.

You can borrow your troops to me, if you want. They are just across the Carpathians and it would be easy for them to join my Army Group South which began forming on the 28th. NO said it's still the 28th, so they should join them before they start going south.

Yes, I understood you're Germany.

You can borrow your troops to me, if you want. They are just across the Carpathians and it would be easy for them to join my Army Group South which began forming on the 28th. NO said it's still the 28th, so they should join them before they start going south.
That would cause a political mess the size of China! Great Britain has expressed their support for the Ottoman Empire and if Russia is closer to them than to me, I'd be back in RL WWI without K.U.K by my side. I'll have to opt for something else *leers towards France*

That would cause a political mess the size of China! Great Britain has expressed their support for the Ottoman Empire and if Russia is closer to them than to me, I'd be back in RL WWI without K.U.K by my side. I'll have to opt for something else *leers towards France*
But what if Russia wanted some territories in the Caucasus? ;)

Peace!? How are my SS troops ever going to get combat experience now :(

EDIT: Posted as puppet.Hey, give war a chance.

I'm not yet convinced that this will end within bloodshed. And don't worry, I'll find a way to get your SS troopers into combat (or would that be "S" troopers, since you say their insignia doesn't have a double lightning bolt... ;) ).

Britain is merely trying to expand her Empire in the Middle East. If it came to actual conflict with the Balkan League I wouldnt be surprised if my ships raised anchors and shelled you for a while before bugging out and leaving the Turks to their fate, whilst at the British Troops from India begin arriving in Basra :D

Also the freaking globe Ive been using for my geographical knowledge is shite and has been removed. So i went out today and bought a copy of a massive national geographic atlas of the world. In future I will therefore be non-geographically retarded! Apologises to all those who have been effected by the stupid thing!

Don't abandon the search for period maps. You'd be surprised at how much humans have changed the landscape by dredging, damming, filling, mining, etc...

What is the K.u.K. position on Serbia's claims in the Balkans?

You should ask me that IC. ;)

The answer is that Serbia's claims will be considered fairly (at least from my perspective) but probably not to their liking. I have Ottoman census data on each vilayet and will not likely award any lands to Serbia or Montenegro where Orthodox Serbs weren't the largest single ethnic group.

However, these claims will only be respected if Serbia and Montenegro seek to fulfil them through negotiation. If either country picks up a gun and starts shooting, all claims made on behalf of that nation will be forfeit.

Beyond that, there are some territories that I will not permit to fall into Serbian hands, at least as long as either Serbia or Montenegro espouses support for a "Greater Serbia" or "Yugoslavia". Why would I strengthen a nation that is bent on destroying me?

But we'll get to that today...

BTW, "k.u.k" is an abbreviation that means (translated into English) "Imperial and Royal"; thus there are "k.u.k." military forces, but no such place as "the k.u.k.". Since I hate the term "Austria-Hungary" and "Dual Monarchy" seems clumsy, you can simply refer to me as the Habsburgs or Habsburg Monarchy if you wish. Confused yet?

You'll also see "k.k." (for Imperial) and "k.u." (for Royal Hungarian). In the Dual Monarchy, we have two or three of everything. :rolleyes:

Hey, give war a chance.

I'm not yet convinced that this will end within bloodshed. And don't worry, I'll find a way to get your SS troopers into combat (or would that be "S" troopers, since you say their insignia doesn't have a double lightning bolt... ;) ).
They're still called SS as in SchutzStaffel but it's written with two normal Ss instead of lightning bolts.

Also, I tend to avoid the term K.u.K as it is Swedish slang for the male sexual organ, to call the empire Austria-Hungary or the Dual Monarchy would be easier then.

You should ask me that IC. ;)
Actually, Serbia should have done it, since they are primarily interested, but since they haven't done it...

BTW, "k.u.k" is an abbreviation that means (translated into English) "Imperial and Royal"; thus there are "k.u.k." military forces, but no such place as "the k.u.k.". Since I hate the term "Austria-Hungary" and "Dual Monarchy" seems clumsy, you can simply refer to me as the Habsburgs or Habsburg Monarchy if you wish. Confused yet?

You'll also see "k.k." (for Imperial) and "k.u." (for Royal Hungarian). In the Dual Monarchy, we have two or three of everything. :rolleyes:
O.K.

EDIT:

I have Ottoman census data on each vilayet

Could you post the link to that? I'm interested in this kind of info.

They're still called SS as in SchutzStaffel but it's written with two normal Ss instead of lightning bolts.

Also, I tend to avoid the term K.u.K as it is Swedish slang for the male sexual organ, to call the empire Austria-Hungary or the Dual Monarchy would be easier then.ROTFLMAO!!!!

The best one is an actual literary pun used in our current period by Viennese critics of the regime: "Kakania" ("Empire of Sh_t"). Needless to say, you won't be my friend if you call me that.

You can call me the Dual Monarchy or the Hapsburgs. The reason I hate Austria-Hungary is the fact that the people living there never actually used the term (as far as I can tell).

(In a few years I'm going to have to come up with a new name, though. Come 1917, I'll turn it into the Triple Monarchy, which is going to make it tough on folks who want to call it "Austria-Hungary" because it will then be "Austria-Hungary-????" [you'll have to wait and see what the third kingdom is].

(At that point, I'll also probably abandon the "k.u.k." terminology, since it would likely have to be "k.k.u.k" or some other equally ridiculous construction.)

Actually, Serbia should have done it, since they are primarily interested, but since they haven't done it...Yeah, what's up with them? I heard Slavic Byzantium complain about a bad dial-up connection, and that's it (oh, and that "damn!" a few posts back, which has got to be a commentary on his position).

I really hate to keep pushing on without him, but on the other hand I don't have a lot of choice. If he declared mobilisation and made some plans, I could start moving ahead by more than one day at a time. Right now, though, I want to make sure that the timing of events is correct, and that means moving day by day until he responds.

Could you post the link to that? I'm interested in this kind of info.I think I'll just duplicate it, since my source is second-hand and I'm not sure if the original is on the web.

But I need to do other things first...

Ok, Romania, go find some way to help me defend against Bulgaria. My defensive line should hold the serbians back, and Austria-Hungary, tell me how far your troops are in Albania, because I have cavarly regiments coming from Gallpoli to defend against Serbia and to hold the peace Albania. So just tell me how the progress is because I won't be able to post as much, my computer is under repairs, and I can only use my dad's laptop, until I get a new comp., I'm going to post only major additions in battle and defense.

I just wanna say I have never said anything at all about wanting to destroy the k.u.k. I have no intention of it whatsoever. All I want is Yugoslavia in a size similar to that of what came out historically. That in no way threatens the existence of the Dual Monarchy. Frankly I have no clue how you can claim that besides an attempt to find a way to make it accepted that Serbia become a protectorate/puppet of the Dual Monarchy. Not even historically did King Petar or Nikola want to destroy the Dual Monarchy. Petar's goal was essentially a Greater Serbia, and was not the most ideal ruler and as such you'll see an unexpected change...watch Nikola carefully ;)

B-H is 19 768 sq miles in size, C-S is 16 421. This totals 36189 sq miles out of the Monarchy's 261 239 sq miles or 13.8% of the territory. The combined population of B-H and C-S is 4 551 093 out of the Monarch's 51 340 378 or 8.8%. All of whom are Yugoslavs. It was also debatable that Joseph took B-H and C-S simply to make up for losing Northern Italy as he thought it improper to take over a kingdom and leave it smaller than when he got it. 1910 census of the Austro-Hungarian empire(last one before the emprie fell apart)

It seems that the Dual Monarchy felt that Serbs were a threat to its very existence and took a lot of measures to attempt to pacify the Serbs and Slavs in its domain.

"Moreover, the closing of westward doors by the disastrous wars again Italy and Prussia had turned Austria-Hungary's face towards the south-east, where Serbia had blocked the way. The occupation of Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1878 was a move against the Serbs. Its annexation, hastened by the Turkish revolution of 1908, was a blow to Pan-Serbism. Opression in Croatia was intensified." <Chambers's Encyclopedia. A Dictionary Of Universal Knowledge. New Edition. Volume I. 1923. P. 610.>

""The main threads of the Yugoslav (South Slav) movement may be conveniently indicated here, as its fortunes came to be linked up with those of Serbia. The name Yugoslav should strictly apply to all those Slavs who migrated to the north and north-west of the Balkan Peninsula ; The Bulgarians, however, though linguistically akin to the others, have so far not been regarded as Yugoslavs. It was the misfortune of these peoples that they should find themselves on the border-line between East and West, that they should act as buffers to the European aspirations of the Turk and the Drang nach Osten of Germany and Austria. Divided politically, they also came under the influence of different religious creeds--Catholic, Orthodoc, and Moslem--as well as the different civilizations of east and west. Yet they remained linked together by linguistic affinity and a common heritage of tradition and folklore. During the 19th century the bonds were gradually strengthened by the growth of a spirit of nationality among Yugoslav peoples. Serbia threw off the Turkish yoke in 1878. in Croatia a Yugoslav academy and university were established at Zagreb. The movement simmered gently during the last quarter of the 19th century, but, with the new dynasty in 1903, Serbia's rise from virtual impotence awoke a new enthusiasm in Croatia. In 1905 representatives of Croats and Dalmatian Serbs met at Zara and identified themselves with a policy of national unity. A few years later a Serbo-Croat coalition became a major force in the Croat parliament at Zagreb, and remained so till 1918 in spite of opposition and repression by Austria-Hungary." <Chambers's Encyclopedia. A Dictionary Of Universal Knowledge. New Edition. Volume IX. 1927. P. 261-262.>

"Meanwhile Serbia had humbled Turkey and Bulgaria, and in the early days of the European War proceeded to invade Austrian territory. Here was indeed a saviour for the southern Slav peoples. But Serbia fell upon evil days, and Yugoslav schemes had to be cast differently. While Austrian oppresion of the Yugoslavs now within her military dominions alienated their sympathies more than ever, an important committee of Yugoslav refugees in London began to lay plans for a united Yusoslavia--a service premature perhaps, but nevertheless invaluable."<Chambers's Encyclopedia. A Dictionary Of Universal Knowledge. New Edition. Volume IX. 1927. P. 262.>

Stupid sticking completly with k.u.k's historical methods of isolating Serbia and attempting to turn it into an Austro-Hungarian protectorate/puppet. This sucks!

On the fighting near Adrianople: Numbers are way too low on all sides. Historically, the Bulgarians had about 200,000 men on this front vs. about 120,000 Turks.


The Bulgarians were much better armed and led than the Turks. The Andromedan's purchase of Mauser 98's was no different than what the Porte actually did, so it leaves both sides equal in rifle technology. Where the Bulgarians had a huge edge was in their use of France's excellent 75mm field gun. Bulgarian artillery savaged the Turks in every open field battle. Unfortunately these 75mm field pieces were not as good at siege work. As for Turkish cavalry, it was simply horrible.

That's been utterly reversed here: it took months for the Bulgarians to take Edirne, not a week, and once they had taken it there was little that the Turks could do to get it back until after Bulgaria fell under attack by the other Balkan states.


Bulgarian morale was excellent while Turkish morale was pathetic.


Supply lines and disease were huge problems for both sides in this fight. Typhus ravaged both armies, especially the Bulgarians; neither Turkey nor Bulgaria had the supply services to keep their armies fed and maintained in an area that is often short on water.


Neither side has observed NationStates etiquette. Bulgaria should not have decided how many Turks were in Edirne, nor should it had determined the state of fortifications, nor determined the outcome of the siege of Adrianople on its own. The Porte should not have decided Bulgarian casualties in its counterattack on Edirne nor directed the Bulgarian troops in the actions they took defending the city.OOC: Regarding the defeat of the Bulgarian army.

I think it's plausible. In RL, the Turks had to fight against Serbia, Montenegro, Greece and Bulgaria. Now their only opponents seem to be the Bulgarians. Honestly, I doubt Bulgaria alone could hope to defeat the Ottoman Empire. I'll post more when I'll have the time.I have to disagree.

Historically, the Bulgarians whipped the Porte's 1st Adrianople Army singlehandedly. Greece, Macedonia, and Montenegro all fell on the 2nd Macedonian Army, which is not in this fight (it's been cut off from the rest of Turkish territory because the Porte surrendered Salonika rather than promising to surrender it like I suggested (the latter would have given Turkish forces a way back home, which they no longer have without Greek permission, which I doubt they'll get).

So strategically, this war should be exactly like the RL one without the fighting in the Vardar valley. That doesn't bode well for the Porte (or wouldn't, if this war was fought properly. A Bulgarian victory is exactly what I expected and I rather think that Lachenburg will have a thing or two to say about The Adromedan's play.

My defensive line should hold the serbians back, and Austria-Hungary, tell me how far your troops are in Albania, because I have cavarly regiments coming from Gallpoli to defend against Serbia and to hold the peace Albania. So just tell me how the progress is because I won't be able to post as much, my computer is under repairs, and I can only use my dad's laptop, until I get a new comp., I'm going to post only major additions in battle and defense.Since our agreement was for you to place 2nd Macedonian Army (i.e., all Turkish forces in the western vilayets) under my command until I no longer needed them, I will RP those troops from this moment forward (taking effective charge of them on March 31st, 1912).

As for reinforcements, don't bother. You can't get them there anyway, having given up Selanek vilayet (Salonika) to Greece, your only path to Macedonia now lies through Greek territory.

You may be able to bring troops to the Dardanelles by sea from Syria and Lebanon, but only if Greece permits it.

Frankly I have no clue how you can claim that besides an attempt to find a way to make it accepted that Serbia become a protectorate/puppet of the Dual Monarchy.Look, the Dual Monarchy saw Serbia as a threat; given that you asked me to cede two large chunks of land to you right off the bat, I don't see why I shouldn't either.Not even historically did King Petar or Nikola want to destroy the Dual Monarchy... <long historical argument follows>Use your head.

What happened as soon as you made your demand? Roumania demanded Transylvania, and the Italy made a claim to the Tirol and Trieste, and...

Once I start making concessions, the Dual Monarchy will disappear in a puff of smoke, and I'll be playing Hungary or the Czech Republic, or (most likely) simply be out of this thread altogether. Any concession to Serbia is like drinking hemlock, in so far as it will simply open the door to further concessions, if not to you than to someone else.

All of my actions follow logically from this simple realisation.Stupid sticking completly with k.u.k's historical methods of isolating Serbia and attempting to turn it into an Austro-Hungarian protectorate/puppet. This sucks!You knew the job was dangerous when you took it. :rolleyes:

The consolation is that, should I succeed in reducing Serbia to a Habsburg protectorate (which it was before 1900), then you can switch countries.

Why not take Mexico? You could make an alliance with Japan and really have a lot of fun (right now Mexico should be finishing up its revolution, so you could sweep in as the Zapatistas)...

First, though, you need to finish this RP. If nothing else, playing well and riding it out should earn you respect among the other players.

(Oh, and if I do win and you end up taking Mexico, you can hate me if you want. Thanks to Franz Josef's brother Maximillian, the Mexicans really did hate the Habsburgs, after all...) ;)

Since our agreement was for you to place 2nd Macedonian Army (i.e., all Turkish forces in the western vilayets) under my command until I no longer needed them, I will RP those troops from this moment forward (taking effective charge of them on March 31st, 1912).

As for reinforcements, don't bother. You can't get them there anyway, having given up Selanek vilayet (Salonika) to Greece, your only path to Macedonia now lies through Greek territory.

You may be able to bring troops to the Dardanelles by sea from Syria and Lebanon, but only if Greece permits it.

hehehe... :D

30 000 conscripts of the third call up remained along the Dual Monarchy's border and a further 150 000 en route to link up with Montenegren forces in Macedonia.There are no Montenegrin forces in Macedonia.

Montenegro's army is in Montenegro. If you want those troops to go to Macedonia, you're going to have to fight your way through Turkish/Albanian territory.They only happened to be there, as they were undergoing training in Serbia itself relatively close to Austria-Hungary.Nope, not possible. Look at the map. Montenegro and Serbia share no common border. Between them lies the Sanjak of Novibazar, which was held by the Porte until it was ceded to the new Albanian nation. And now the Sanjak is occupied by k.u.k. forces.btw I see no reason to accept hearing of k.u.k forces being in Macedonia, the Turks do not have a military alliance with the Dual Monarchy as far as I have read nor does the k.u.k have any reason to be there...nor do they have a way to get there with Macedonia being landlokced by the Turks, Montenegrens, Serbs, and Greeks.Only the Porte said I had troops in Macedonia. I didn't. However...

I will have troops in Macedonia. On March 28th, 1912, the Porte agreed to let me occupy the vilayets of Ishkodra, Kosova, Monastir, and Yanya, and right now I'm doing exactly that. And right now I do have troops in the Sanjak.The surprising victories of the Serbian army in 1914 forced even the Austro-Hungarian press to admit a defeat. "The Budapest Hirlap" wrote: "In Serbia, a mortal battle is being waged by a five million strong nation. It is being waged by a well-equipped, daring and, above all, brave army which does not number 400,000 but rather five million people, because everyone is fighting there, from old people to children"(97) (http://www.bglink.com/bgpersonal/batakovic/piedmont.html#THE%20ALBANIANS:%20THE%20NEW%20VIENNESE%20CLIENTS). I am using this to estimate Serbian military size)Don't count on me being stupid, the way the k.u.k. commanders actually were. Attack Serbia from the west, over the gorges of the Drina, and the Tara and Zlatibor Mountains?!? And rape and pillage your way across the country to try and terrorise the populace into submission?!? Whose idiotic idea was that?!?

No, if it comes to blows (which it won't, if you know what's good for you), it won't be that easy. I'll chew you up and spit you out in pieces."As you are aware, we currently have available 200 000 soldiers to overrun Turkish positions in Kosovo, which as we speak are currently running over the Turks like a hot knife through butter.No, they haven't. They're still on the Serbian side of the frontier. If you want to march into Kosova, you'll have to split them into columns and describe the route they'll take in entering the country.

And, if you do enter Kosova, you will officially be at war with the Dual Monarchy. Keep that it mind.The Turks are in full route gentlemen, I expect a maximum of one week before we link up at the Sandjak front.Again, you will need to specify dates of border crossings and avenues of advance. Oh, are remember: this is March, not October. There's still snow in those mountains, and that will affect your movement and supply.

To summarise: You still need to deploy your troops to the frontiers. Both Bulgaria, Roumania, and I made multiple posts about mobilising forces (or, in the case of Bulgaria, preparing for a surprise attack on the Porte). You have made precisely one such entry, Post #77 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9460984&postcount=77), made on 17-08-2005 at 6:35 AM.

In that post, the King of Montenegro said that he "had ordered" his men to attack Macedonia. Since that post came two hours after the one in which I crossed the border into the Sanjak (Post #74 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9460478&postcount=74)), dated March 28th, 1912, I believe that the best we can assume is that Montenegrin troops were on the move by the previous day at the earliest.

On October of 1912, it took only a few days for Montenegro to mobilise - but that was in the early fall and this is the late spring. It's still below freezing in much of Montenegro, and the high passes will still be covered with snow for quite a few more weeks. I would think that the weather conditions, then, would slow Montenegrin mobilisation by a few more days beyond what would be normal. That means that, at the earliest, Montenegrin troops won't be crossing the border (any border) before March 30th or 31st (and in my RP of the 29th, it rained/sleeted/snowed in the area that evening, so any movements on the 30th will be slower than normal, especially along your northeastern frontier.

As for Serbia, the conversation between Kings Nikola and Petar suggests that even by the 28th, Serbia had taken no action to prepare for war. Only in that post does Petar order Crown Prince Alexander to begin action against the Turks, so we have to figure that Serbia's military preparations begin at that moment.

In 1912 Serbia was a small country; mobilisation of its army would likely take about a week. Unfortunately, that doesn't put the army on the frontier by April 3rd; it means that the army is massed in the larger cities (Beograd and Nish) and needs to then head for the frontier. Since the southern frontier at that time was an average of 100km or so from the big cities further north, and because that 100km is mostly over mountains that would still be covered with ice and snow in March, I would expect these armies to require another 5-7 days to reach the frontier and begin their attacks.

So realistically, Serbia can begin aggressive operations on or around April 9th. Some smaller forays might be possible the previous week, but these will be small and will not enjoy much logistical support (they'll run out of ammo quickly).


Once your troops are on the frontier, you'll have to march them into Macedonia and Kosova. I recommend using a vintage map of the region (like this one (http://feefhs.org/maps/BALK/ba-serb.html) or this one (http://feefhs.org/maps/BALK/ba-ngre.html)) for military planning. I use such a map to get a sense of which towns were important and which weren't, and where the major roads were, and then I use Via Michelin (http://www.viamichelin.com/) to calculate the actual march distances (always compare the route Michelin generates with the historical map and break your journey into "stages" if you have to to get it to fit the earlier road net). You don't have to go day by day the way I am in the Sanjak; I'm doing that in part because I've been uncertain of what you would do, and haven't wanted to presume anything. Now that I know, I'll skip ahead much further in time.


I command the Turkish 2nd Army - that was part of our agreement (the one between me and the Porte), so any statement by you to the effect that "the Turks are broken and routing" in my zone will be discounted as an overly optimistic rumour among Serbian and Montenegrin soldiers.Anyway, the ball is in your court.

Personally, I think you'd be better off accepting the inevitable and just standing down.

What happened as soon as you made your demand? Roumania demanded Transylvania, and the Italy made a claim to the Tirol and Trieste, and...
I was mainly making such a claim to stay in character. The land [Actually there was even more than what I asked for] was traditionally Italian until the Napoleonic wars when it was ceded to a non-Italian government. At this time in history the Italians wanted this land and even went to war with Austria-Hungary to get it.

BTW, His demands had nothing to do with my claims. I was just trying to take a more active role in the RP.

Ok... I would just like to point out right about now how very utterly confused I am... confused to the point that thoughts such as throwing a millieum party to celebrate the new year when my forces actually reach their destinations... um, yeah.

When can I expect my troops and ships to reach their destinations? I want to know so I can put plans of moblising the Epirus Army into action.

I thought The Andromedan had announced several posts and many days ago that he had retreated his army to defend Adrianople? The Bulgarians had won in 1912, but then the Turks were also fighting 3 more countries. The RP of the battle wasn't very inspired, but the outcome (the Bulgarians' defeat) seems logical.

I'm still a bit puzzled as to the position and numbers of the Greek, Serbian and Turkish armies. So far, only NO and myself have given clear numbers, OOB's and positions (the Bulgarians say their armies are in the south, but their OOB is a bit vague). Before we continue, I suggest every player to declare where are his troops, their strength and, if some of them are mobilizing, when will they be ready and where will they be deployed (not exactly an OOB, just a simplified form, as below).

I have posted the info before, but here it is again:

1st and 2nd Armies, with a total of 14 infantry divisions and 2 heavy artilery batallions, are in the Carpathians.

3 newly mobilized infantry divisions will be attached to the troops in the Carpathians (two to the 1st Army and one to the 2nd Army).

Army Group South (3 infantry divisions and 2 cavalry brigades) began mobilizing on the 27th and will be ready on the 4th of April. It will be deployed in the south (duh!).

3rd Army, with a total of 3 infantry divisions, 2 cavalry divisions and 3 cavalry drigades, will also be deployed in the south, but I'll keep them as reserves for the moment. They'll also be ready on the 4th.

EDIT: NO, when you started the occupation of Albania, you said that the 2nd Army was on the move. Before that, you had said they were deployed against myself. Does that mean you left the Carpathians undefended? (no, I won't declare war on you, but I want to know the position of the troops). Also, you haven't mentioned any other army as being on the move, IIRC. Does this mean you're attacking with the 2nd Army? I don't see how could the 2nd Army have moved so fast from Transilvania to Novi Pazar.

2nd Army took up positions facing Roumania and Northeastern Serbia

Within the hour, the better part of 2nd Army was on the move, some of it by rail

EDIT 2: That's what The Andromedan had posted:

Greece: I have pulled out of Crete, the Dodecanese, and Selanik, sothey are yours now, i also have left all of greece alone and made only a defensive post around adriannople, i hope there can be peace between us.
I thoght this means his troops are no longer in these regions.

EDIT 3: Sorry, New Dracora. You have posted your OOB (it's almost too detailed, if you're asking me) and your armies' destinations. You still haven't said when will they be ready to fight, though.

Bulgaria should not have decided how many Turks were in Edirne

I assumed that there were around 30,000 Turks near Adrianople, because the Porte had failed to post anything pertaining their total forces within and around the city itself. However, the number itself truly had no effect on my movements and I did not intend to have it do so.


nor should it had determined the state of fortifications

Again, being that I was provided with very little information, I simply used my reasources and deducted that the city itself would be rather heavily fortified, because of it's importance.

nor determined the outcome of the siege of Adrianople on its own.

I don't believe I ever determined the outcome of my first attack on Adrianople and my last comment was poorly worded (Ill edit it). As a matter of fact, I was expecting for my first attack to be repulsed by the Turks within the city and my soldiers thrown back.

I thought The Andromedan had announced several posts and many days ago that he had retreated his army to defend Adrianople? The Bulgarians had won in 1912, but then the Turks were also fighting 3 more countries. The RP of the battle wasn't very inspired, but the outcome (the Bulgarians' defeat) seems logical.

I never saw anything of the sort and from what it looks like, the Porte is fighting several other nations as well.


Enver: brother, they have taken Adrianople, and the serbs are currently held up in Albania, this is perfect, we have the entire Bulgarian attaack force in our sites, we can either besiege the city now and risk our last defense, or wait for the Romanians to march straight to Sophia.

I must remind you that the only force currently attack Adrianople is the Bulgarian 2nd Army, which is only one branch of the attack. The Bulgarian 1st Army is also currently moving through Ottoman Territory, parallel to the Black Sea coast and have been prepared to pincer Adrianople from the north in the event of a Bulgarian loss.

Thus, unless you present more forces to counter-act their movement, elements of the 1st Army will be capable of outflanking your forces now trying to recapture the city.

Also, I do believe the Romanians are supporting my attack against the Porte and are currently sending troops through Bulgaria to aid in my attack against you.

Also, I do believe the Romanians are supporting my attack against the Porte and are currently sending troops through Bulgaria to aid in my attack against you.
We may support you, depending on how will Serbia's teritorial demands be treated. If a Greater Albania will appear and you take Macedonia with Skopie, what is left for Serbia?

I support Serbia's claims. Romania and Serbia have a common border, but it would be practically impossible to transport an army over it (it's the Danube). My troops can only move through Bulgaria. For this reason, I need to know what they have to say about that. If we are at that, I also want to know what the K.u.K. and Greece have to say. Until these states answer, particularly the K.u.K., I advise you not to attack Turkish teritories

My question was not only about the passage of troops, but also about Serbia's claims. Maybe I haven't been clear enough.

We may support you, depending on how will Serbia's teritorial demands be treated. If a Greater Albania will appear and you take Macedonia with Skopie, what is left for Serbia?

I'll give them Skjope if they ask for it, or if they get there before the 3rd Army does. However, I do believe the KUK is also currently in route to the city and will probably get there before I do. Thus, they'll have to negotiate with them.

Ok... I would just like to point out right about now how very utterly confused I am... confused to the point that thoughts such as throwing a millieum party to celebrate the new year when my forces actually reach their destinations... um, yeah.

When can I expect my troops and ships to reach their destinations? I want to know so I can put plans of moblising the Epirus Army into action.Keep it simple. Crete was more or less independent in 1912, organised as the Cretan Republic but forbidden by the Turks to unite with Greece. There were no Turkish troops on the island, so on the day the note came through (March 28th), all you had to do was send a telegram, and the Cretan Assembly would have voted unification by nightfall. At that point, I figure they ran the Greek flag up the flagpole and it was yours.


Rhodes was occupied by the k.u.k. Kriegsmarine on the evening of the 28th; the rest of the islands would be under my control by the 30th. Figure that the Greek navy could send that spiffy new armoured cruiser of theirs out to Rhodes by April 4th and dump off some marines, and then the islands will be yours.


I think it took about a week for Greece to mass its armies, which means that by April 3rd or 4th you could be rolling into Salonika from Thessaly. Be aware of the fact that movement through the mountains of northern Greece may take a little longer in April than October.


Remember that the Porte gave Yanya (Epirus and southern Albania) to the Albanians, and that I have agreed to press the new Albanian government for surrender of Greek lands to Greece when the negotiations come; therefore, I recommend shifting your Epirus Army to Thessaly. I would assume this can happen during mobilisation, so you should be able to have that army join the one in Thessaly immediately and begin marching north on the same day (April 3rd or 4th).Now see how easy that is?

I thought this means his troops are no longer in these regions.OK: He never had any troops in Crete. Nothing to pull.


The Italians historically took the Rhodes and Dodecanese during the Italo-Tukish War, so there was nothing there on the eve of the First Balkan War. In this history, that didn't happen, but there was virtually nothing there anyway (maybe 2,000-3,000 men and a couple of torpedo boats ... maybe). Nothing to pull.


He gave up Salonika - not Monastir, Yanya, Ishkodra, or Kosova. The 2nd Macedonian Army was based at Skopje (in Monastir) and had detachments throughout the remaining area it was supposed to cover. At best, he had 25% of this army (3 divisions and about 39,000 men) in Selanek (Salonika), so that's what he would have pulled out. But he did not withdraw the other troops before he quit Selanek, so those troops are still in Albania.The key is in the list: Salonika, Crete, and the Dodecanese. Not Albania.NO, when you started the occupation of Albania, you said that the 2nd Army was on the move. Before that, you had said they were deployed against myself. Does that mean you left the Carpathians undefended?No. I left some troops there (I'm being cagey about what I left - fog of war and all that). I was wondering when you'd pick up on the fact that the bulk of the army deployed against Roumania isn't there any more, though...

(Realistically, this was a major strategic issue for everyone in this age; you have no way of knowing that 2.Armee isn't there still, right?) ;)Also, you haven't mentioned any other army as being on the move, IIRC. Does this mean you're attacking with the 2nd Army?Opens cigar tin, hands the Romanian Prime Minister a cigar. :DI don't see how could the 2nd Army have moved so fast from Transilvania to Novi Pazar.One word: railroads.

I took the reserve formations of 2.Armee, threw them onto trains, one corps at a time, and railed them to Goražde in Bosnia (my closest railhead to the Sanjak). That's why you're seeing the troops arriving in what amounts to a single march column, if you read between the lines; they're streaming down the road from Goražde to Priboj, a distance of 73km (about 45 miles). For the cavalry, that's a two day move (which is my the rest of of my Hungarians are a day behind their vanguard regiment). Any infantry formations from 2.Armee are further back still - although again nobody outside the Dual Monarchy would have any way of knowing that.

So right now most of 2.Armee is entrained, awaiting transport. But not all of it.

Also, don't assume that because I said that 2.Armee was on the move that other formations weren't. Most of 5.Armee and 6.Armee are still facing Serbia and Montenegro respectively, but a few brigades have moved. 3.Gebirgsbrigade, for instance, is actually a formation of 6.Armee.

The reinforcement rate in the Sanjak, therefore, is about a division a day. I don't believe that my RP has been inconsistent with that.

In my OOB, 3.Gebirgsbrigade is actually part of 6.Armee

Here's my planned march route from Goražde to Skopje (379km/236 miles) (http://www.viamichelin.com/viamichelin/gbr/dyn/controller/ItiWGPerformPage?E_wg=210505233lS17J505232223501515375ITIWG9w10133gbr009k107y101j10111d1016110710253 43000aR29yYXpkZQ000010091144ecm100131b101115100y11071025334000bUHJpc3RpbmE000013000100131h10111b1014 110710253460008UHJpYm9q000010091144dnz100131n10111h101a11071025346000eTm92aSBQYXNhcg000010091143aeh1 00131l10111f101811071025346000cTWl0cm92aWNh000010091143aei10013010072005232039.004-1.00150001001001001001001003gbr011&stat=ambiguous_iti&pim=true&dtmDeparture=20%2F08%2F2005&strDestAddress=&strDestCP=&strDestCity=Skopje&strDestCityCountry=1025334&x=8&y=10).

We may support you, depending on how will Serbia's teritorial demands be treated. If a Greater Albania will appear and you take Macedonia with Skopie, what is left for Serbia?Very, very little - which is precisely my intention.

Ok, I admit that we had a bit of a problem with the seige of Adrianople, Bulgaria took the city in about 5 hours in his part of the battle, and I wrongly depicted Bulgarian tactics in my part of the battle. I think with permission we should REDO the battle with the help of Narodna Odbrana.
Or you guys can kick me off this RP if you think I'm not up to playing a role of this size. I also admit that I'm not very good at playing the Porte... so I can settle with you guys finding another better person to play as the Porte, and I can play as what was left of Bosnia at that time. I have done research and found that not all of bosnia was under the Dual Monarchy's control, some was closly connected to Serbian lands. I urge you to consider it, I will very well love to play either role, but as you can see, everyone is getting pissed off with me, and I don't want to mess this entire RP up for everybody else.

Ok something I don't understand is why my army is STILL in Albania, after you said Albania was ratified, I moved part of my army to Gallpoli, and the other to defend Adrianople. I don't get how you can say that my army is still stuck there. Please Explain.

Because if as I had said before, if my 2nd Macedonian army was placed in the defense of Adrianople, as I originally thought, the outcome of the battle would have had different results. Also, in the defense of Adrianople, the Ottomans had used newly purchased Maxim machine guns, and a wave of enemies swarming the city would have been devastated, I don't recall reading that in the battle, Bulgaria EVER used or even HAD machine guns.

Even if the Bulgarians would have taken Adrianople, My forces would have been able to retreat into my stronghold at Cataka, and reinforce the lines in Istanbul, I think that I am going to say that I did nothing and I'll erase my attack on Adrianople and say that I did nothing but retreat. The Bulgarians would be foolish to advance any further into my fortified cities, and I cannot spare any more troops and risk an invasion on the city.

Is that resolution OK Narodna Odbrana?

Ok something I don't understand is why my army is STILL in Albania, after you said Albania was ratified, I moved part of my army to Gallpoli, and the other to defend Adrianople. I don't get how you can say that my army is still stuck there. Please Explain.Becuase you gave Salonika to Greece without strings, which effectively trapped your army in Albania. How could it possibly reach Edrirne (Adrianople) once you'd given up Salonika, unless the Greeks were willing to let it march through what is now Greek territory?Also, in the defense of Adrianople, the Ottomans had used newly purchased Maxim machine guns, and a wave of enemies swarming the city would have been devastated, I don't recall reading that in the battle, Bulgaria EVER used or even HAD machine guns.What makes you think the Turks didn't have Maxim guns in 1912? They did, and it didn't help.Even if the Bulgarians would have taken Adrianople, My forces would have been able to retreat into my stronghold at Cataka, and reinforce the lines in Istanbul, I think that I am going to say that I did nothing and I'll erase my attack on Adrianople and say that I did nothing but retreat. The Bulgarians would be foolish to advance any further into my fortified cities, and I cannot spare any more troops and risk an invasion on the city.You should have between 120,000 and 150,000 men in front of Adrianople. Why not just dig in and force the enemy to fight you in the trenches?

What the Turks did historically was try to fight Bulgaria in the open field. They got slaughtered doing that.I have done research and found that not all of bosnia was under the Dual Monarchy's control, some was closly connected to Serbian lands.Really? What part would that be? The Sanjak?

I'm not actually sure, I was doign reasearch on wherre to place my forts and I came across a map that said before WW1, I did a close-up and saw a small sliver of land that said Bosnia on it, I was guessing that it was the same time as the Balkan Crisis, but I really wanted to check with you.

Damn, I guess I forgot to pull my forces out then. LOL. I'll just keep them there, so I can flank the serbs if they try anything funky.

And, yes, in the battle of Adrianople I had already "dug in" and I knew his army was coming thanks to Italian air recon, but that didn't stop me from getting whooped. SO what should I do? Bulgaria's attack, if you read it, was just simple. His entire army just attempted to storm a walled city (in his depiction of what would have happened) that is BS, my gunners were in heavily fortified positions, any attemps to storm the 30-foot high stone wall, would have been repelled, plus, in his depiction, he could have used artillery to try and scare my forces from a distance. But he didn't, so basically what you need to do is re-read Bulgaria's attack on the city and say if it would really have happened.

I got kinda mad when you told me to dig in and fight, thats what I have been doing, I explained to everyone, that I kept sending reinforcements to my forts and redoubts and artillery on the hills overlooking. Any attempt to take the city would have been thwarted.

Please, talk to Bulgaria, and seriously think, would the city have really been taken?

Damn, I guess I forgot to pull my forces out then. LOL. I'll just keep them there, so I can flank the serbs if they try anything funky.Actually, you didn't forget. You ordered them to stay in Post #71 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9458970&postcount=71).Cemal: (*signs paper*)" Very good then, have all of the units of the Albanian front stay and defend the Albanian lands along with the trides there..."As I said, you had them stay. But everyone seems to want to believe they're gone and they can just walk into the western vilayets, so who am I to tell them they can't? Only the voice of reason, and we know how much that counts in NationStates. :rolleyes:And, yes, in the battle of Adrianople I had already "dug in" and I knew his army was coming thanks to Italian air recon, but that didn't stop me from getting whooped. SO what should I do? Bulgaria's attack, if you read it, was just simple. His entire army just attempted to storm a walled city (in his depiction of what would have happened) that is BS, my gunners were in heavily fortified positions, any attemps to storm the 30-foot high stone wall, would have been repelled, plus, in his depiction, he could have used artillery to try and scare my forces from a distance. But he didn't, so basically what you need to do is re-read Bulgaria's attack on the city and say if it would really have happened.You do what anyone else would do in that situation: you politely tell him that you're "discounting" that outcome and inform him of the fact that - as far as you're concerned, you still hold the city.I got kinda mad when you told me to dig in and fight, thats what I have been doing, I explained to everyone, that I kept sending reinforcements to my forts and redoubts and artillery on the hills overlooking. Any attempt to take the city would have been thwarted.Then stick to your guns (no pun intended).Please, talk to Bulgaria, and seriously think, would the city have really been taken?In a week or two? No. But in a long siege? Quite possibly. Historically, it was.

You know, there's a ton of online material on this war. You guys should both read it.

Well because it was a request without any hint of military attack should you decline. No was no so diplomatic means cannot happen. The fact that you could conscript an army that's at least half the size of my entire population also prevents a military takeover. That puts an end to any threat by me.

I'm using my head and I'm seeing that B-H and C-S is all Serb/Croat...Bosniaks are just Serbs who are Moslem and since religious differences shouldn't matter and to the Serbs at this point in history it did not. Croats are very similar to Serbs and there are some documents out there that claim (on wikipedia this claim is made) they are the same people. This is entirely possible but I'm not going to attempt to make the claim as I don't know how I could effectively do so.

Ah the old Slippery Slope argument; if I do something once I must do it to everyone regardless of whether or not their claims are legitimate. The lands I asked to be ceded in no way could Habsburg ever have legitimate territorial claims. I highly doubt that your allies would demand territory from you. The fact that they are allied indicates that they are satisfied with the diplomatic relations between your two countries and therefore have no reason to demand territory or any concessions...after all, why be allied? That doesn't mean you're more inclined to give stuff that doesn't belong to them. Do you always have so little faith in your allies? There is no reason that it would be like drinking hemlock. When did this line of logic ever actually turn out to happen?

Don't mind me complaining...I do that from time to time when it gets tough. I'll of course stick it through to the end. I was just hoping it wouldn't be as difficult as it did occur historically. I really need to use emoticons to show that I have a little bit of sarcasm in my text.

Nah...I'll see it to at the very least Serbia remains truly independant.

--------------------------------

my bad...I assumed that they would have already been mobilized given the heightened tensions in the region at the time I will announce full mobilizations after this post in the IC thread.

Yes...very possible since you're mistaking the 150 000 I'm speaking of with the 30 000 conscripts that historically were along the Serbo-Habsburg border at this time. I'll be sure to clarify so a mistake in interpretation does not occur again. As my English teacher said, if you don't know how to use they properly...erase it from your vocabulary.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f1/Contested_regions.jpg
I am not seeing any mention of "vilayets of Ishkodra, Kosova, Monastir, and Yanya, and right now I'm doing exactly that. And right now I do have troops in the Sanjak." on this map from wikipedia of the contested Macedonia region at the time. Where is there a map to show exactly where these vilayets are among Macedonia? That map that I have linked is from 1914.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/Balkan_belligerants_1914.jpg
Even this one doesn't give me the names of those vilayets.

I must have missed it...could someone summarize how it led to there being Habsburg military forces in Kosovo and Macedonia? Especially Kosovo....

Regardless of how you intend to fight any possible wars, the Dual Monarchy made extensive use of propaganda against the Serbs and the fact that a major Habsburg newspaper actually refered to the enemy as being well-equipped, daring, and brave means that it won't be that easy to chew me up and spit me out in pieces as you currently claim. Even if you attack from the north as opposed to the west(northern Serbia at the time not Vojvodina which consists of mostly plains) you'd still face similar terrain. This means in order to fight on terrain where every advantage would not go to the Serbs you'd have to send your armies to Kosovo and Macedonia. Considering the Habsburg navy is primarily a coast-defence force, it would take a considerable amount of time to transport the minimum of one million soliders required to effectively outnumber the Balkan League armies not to mention being able to keep up with the logistical nightmare that a million soldiers not supplied by any land route would be to you and the damage partisan forces would do to any land supply lines. Considering that, the forces you could muster in Kosovo and Macedonia would be outnumbered several times over by Serbo-Greek and Montenegren forces, thus if you were to move enough forces to effectively take on the Balkan League in Macedonia and Kosovo there would be some interesting questions raised by the world powers. You also need to take into account the roles played by Russia and France as diplomatic pressure by them historically hleped Serbia to a great extent in the Balkan wars.

Even if you were to attempt to attack Serbia along its Eastern borders with Romania, there are the Alps along there as well to attempt to get through. Your alliance with Germany stipulates they will come to your rescue if you are under attack, not automatically assist you in any aggressions towards sovereign nations, ie, you're alone in attempting to fufill your Drang noch Osten (Urge to the East) in such a manner. Russia and France would also cause considerable headaches, especially Russia as they have vested interests in Bulgaria and Serbia. In reality, my position is not as bad as you make it out to be albeit a difficult one nonetheless.

Of course the opponent would always personally think that's for the best ;)

Post withdrawn. I was in a rotten mod when I wrote this, and never should have posted it.P.O. Alert!!!! P.O. Alert!!!

F___.

OK, it is very clear to me that this war needs a moderator/referee, and that I’m the one who’s done his homework and knows how to do it, but since I cannot fairly moderate/referee a fight that I’m in, I’m going to have to drink the Kool-Aid and resolve this in a way that will be suicidal to the Dual Monarchy. Only in that way will the rest of you be happy and call the final results fair. :rolleyes:

So…

<deep breath>

<steps into H.G. Wells’ Time Machine>

March 4th, 1912 The Dual Monarchy announces that it will conduct military exercises in Bosnia-Hercegovina, Hungary, and Bucovnia between March 17th and March 31st, 1912.March 17th, 1912 K.u.k. forces begin exercises as scheduled.


Roumania begins mobilisation in preparation for exercises which will begin on March 27th, 1912.March 18th, 1912 Serbian and Montenegrin forces begin mobilisation. Montenegrin forces will be ready for action in four days, on March 22nd, 1912. Serbian troops will be ready for action on March 25th, 1912. This is a change from our thread; I am making an arbitrary decision to have the Serbs and Montenegrins do this, even though they never issued the orders to mobilise and simply assumed complete force readiness when they needed it. Silly me, for thinking mobilisation was necessary. I'll note that it isn't, for future reference...March 22nd, 1912 Montenegrin troops are now ready for war. This is per the above change in the RP thread.March 25th, 1912 Serbian troops are now ready for war. This is per the above change in the RP thread.


The k.u.k. ambassador to Istanbul tells Vienna that the Porte had been unresponsive to all his efforts at communication.


The k.u.k. High Command puts Fall Grün into motion.March 26th, 1912 Bulgarian forces cross the border into Osmanli territory.March 27th, 1912 Mirditë tribesmen begin a revolt against the Porte in Ishkodra vilayet (northern Albania).


The Dual Monarchy presents the Sublime Porte with an ultimatum.


Roumania orders the mobilisation of its remaining forces, to be completed by April 3rd, 1912.


Unknown to anyone else, Montenegrin forces cross over the border into the Sanjak and Albania. Separately, Montenegro urges Serbia to immediately attack Kosova and Macedonia; Serbia agrees, and Crown Prince Alexander is issued orders to attack. This is a change from the thread. In the actual RP to date, the Serbo-Montenegrin player made no indication that he was going to invade Albania or the Sanjak until the following day.March 28th, 1912 K.u.k. light infantry land on the Albanian coast at Shëngjin and link up with the Mirditë.


The Porte gives in to the Dual Monarchy’s demands by surrendering Salonika, Crete, and the Dodecanese to Greece, but rejects the Habsburg empire’s demand that it leave its troops in Albania, instead withdrawing its troops for Adrianople. This last item is a change from what The Andromedan ordered his forces to do in RP Post #71 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9458970&postcount=71), but in line with his wishes in OOC Post #127 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9484875&postcount=127) (apparently The Andromedan forgot that he’d issued the earlier orders, because in OOC Post #127 he wonders why his troops are still in Albania and begs for them to be dispatched to Adrianople). Even though it will be fatal for me, I’ve decided to honour his wishes. May God have mercy on my soul.

The Turkish troops begin a precipitous withdrawal from Macedonia and Albania; the withdrawing forces – unless destroyed en route - should arrive in the vicinity of Adrianople (Edirne) by April 11th, 1912.


K.u.k. military forces begin crossing the border into the Sanjak. By nightfall, the forward elements of 3.Gebirgsbrigade halt 3km shy of Rudnica, while Zalaegerszeger Landwehrhusarenregiment Nr.6 reaches Nova Varoš.


Unknown to the Dual Monarchy or the Sublime Porte, Montenegrin forces also enter the Sanjak, easily crossing the Tara Gorge (a 4,000 foot-deep canyon of 80km in length) to take the towns of Pljevlja and Bijelo Polje. The force at Pljevlja – numbering over 10,000 men – camps just 5km from k.u.k. positions near Rudnica, but is undetected.


Serbian forces cross into Kosova, Macedonia, and Sanjak, unknown to either the Dual Monarchy or the fleeing Turks, accomplishing this feat in spite of the fact that the passes they must use are still snowbound and the roads ice-covered. Troops from Raška attack Novi Pazar, the administrative capitol of the Sanjak, and overran it in a surprise attack just before nightfall. All Turkish resistance in the Sanjak collapses; 3,000 Turkish troops are killed or captured, with less than 50 Serbian casualties. This is a change in the thread.


Bulgarian troops arrive at the outskirts of Adrianople (Edirne) and begin to lay siege to the city.March 29th, 1912 Slowed by rain, Zalaegerszeger Landwehrhusarenregiment Nr.6 reaches Sjenica, but goes no further. Other k.u.k. forces are forced to encamp along the road between Priboj and Nova Varoš, due to the miserable weather.


During the night, Montenegrin troops discover the k.u.k. encampment near Rudnica. In a predawn attack., they catch the k.u.k. mountain troops by surprise and rout them. Over 2,000 k.u.k. soldiers are killed, another 3,000 are captured along with 5 field guns, and Montenegrin forces, flushed with success, pursue the few surviving mountaineers back to Hercegovacka Goleša, unhindered by the worsening weather. In the process they also overrun 12.Gebirgsartilleriebrigade, marching up behind the k.u.k. mountain troops, capturing another 35 field pieces and howitzers, as well as another 3,000 prisoners. 3.Gebirgsbrigade and 12.Gebirgsartilleriebrigade are now effectively destroyed. Montenegrin losses number less than 200 men.

In the meantime, Montenegrin troops, again unhindered by the weather, reach Prijepolje, along the southern foothills below Mount Zlatar. They are now in a position to fall on the flank of advancing k.u.k. forces and completely annihilate two divisions of k.u.k. troops, which they will do before dawn on the 30th, in spite of the snows on Mount Zlatar and the bitter cold of the season.


In Kosova and Macedonia, Crown Prince Alexander’s army falls on the Turks by surprise as they attempt to withdraw. In a three day battle, a third of the Turkish 2nd Macedonian Army is wiped out and the rest breaks into rout.At this point, Serb and Montenegrin forces now control the Sanjak. In the battle on the 30th, another 15,000 k.u.k. soldiers will be killed or captured with fewer than 1,000 casualties on the part of the Serbs or Montenegrins. With that, the Dual Monarchy will abandon its attempts to intervene any further in the Balkans, with the result that it will be driven onto the defencive, a position from which it will will never recover; indeed, fillen with élan from the victory, Montenegrin forces will invade Bosnia and overrun everything east of the Drina River, killing another 25,000 k.u.k troops with the loss of only 2,000 more of their own.

In similar fashion, because they were caught by surprise while trying to pull out of Kosova and Macedonia, the Turkish presence in the west will collapse. The Albanian rebellion will then falter and all four vilayets will fall into Serbian and Montenegrin hands in the following month. Once Albania has been conquered and annexed, an genocide of the Albanian people will begin that will produce over 2,000 burned villages, 50,000 rapes, and over 750,000 murders (50% of all ethnic Albanians in Europe) in the next eighteen months; the Albanian people will all but cease to exist, Serbia and Montenegro will unite, annex the whole of Albania, and – so bolstered – ally with Roumania in the eventual subversion and destruction of the Dual Monarchy, an endeavour in which they will eventually succeed, bringing fascism and genocide to the Balkans and snuffing out all hope of liberty in the region for the next two centuries.

Total Serbian and Montenegrin losses for this entire campaign will be 5,000 men, against 40,000 Turkisk casualties.

OK, so now that I’ve eliminated any possibility that I could emerge victorious from the carnage in the Balkans, I should be able to fairly adjudicate the rest of the war, without any possible accusation of bias. :p

Rulings: Adrianople is still in Turkish hands.


The Bulgarians are in a position to assault the Turkish right flank and envelop the city.


100,000 Turkish soldiers will join the battle in the second week of April, unless Greece forbids it.


Turkish arms purchases before 1912 did nothing to improve her army quality (she already had Mauser 98’s and Maxim guns before the war).


Bulgarian artillery is vastly superior to Turkish artillery, but too light for siege work.


Both sides need to correct major supply problems in the siege of Adrianople.


Both sides need to realise that losses from disease will likely exceed losses in combat (this was true everywhere, throughout the period).Let the butchery commence.

Translation: I'm tired of the whining, poor play, lack of research, godmodding, etc. If this is what I have to do to end it, then I'm going to end it.

Extreme sarcasm aside what the crap?! No! I do not want that outcome exactly as that!!! Jesus I do not want genoside of the Albanians! Hell the Lord of Central Albania was on extremely good terms with Serbia because Serbia assisted him in disputes with the other Lords of Albania. Hell it was Essad-pasha Toptani(lord of Central Albania) that saved the asses of Serbia and Montenegro by allowing the retreating Serbo-Montenegren forces to go through his lands to the Adriatic where French ships evacuated the army and in 1916 redeployed them in Macedonia.

I really do apologize for my shoddy rping. I have attempted to find maps that would allow me to do proper mobilization but have led to no success. I jsut noticed a couple you posted and am looking over them to fix my mobilization woes. I also have been fully unable to find any details whatsoever on the breakdown of the Serbian army and I'm afraid I'll godmod by assuming I have x num ber of artillery pieces, machine guns etc. All I know is by fall 1914 the Habsburg considered the Serbian army well equipped but in 1912 they were short of 125 000 rifles. I guess I'm asking that somewhere someone give me info I can use to do an effective mobilization of my forces without risking godmodding or being completely inaccurate.

I really do not want the collapse of the Habsburg government. I just want B-H and C-S by peaceful means if possible and might consider by war means if we decide to allow Gavrilo to kill Ferdinand and you decide to follow the historical Habsburg response to it. I know you consider it ludicrous to give in to my requests but they stand nonetheless. Perhaps we shoudl redo this whole thing or just agree to the historical outcome.

Again realizing sarcasm(seems like it) but what do you mean fascism? Serbia was relatively democratic similar to the lines of the Dual Monarchy.

Who says you need to emerge victorious or do much of anything...I could accept you keep B-H and C-S and attempt other means to gain it back from you. I simply want what Serbia historically got, Kosovo and good chunks of Macedonia and a link with Montenegro.

There is a way for the Dual Monarchy to come out relatively unscatched with most of us successful...not try to stop the first Balkan war with war, which is what you're doing by occupying Kosovo and Macedonia.

The one goal I want to happen I want to occur without the destruction of the Dual Monarchy...best case scneario for me I get a historical size and population of Yugoslavia worst case for Dual Monarchy you lose no more than 15% of territory that you took in 1878 as a move against Serbia and no other reason. Now I'm not saying I will only accept that outcome in this thread as that will mean waring with you over B-H and C-S. I guess what I'm saying is I'll be satisfied with the historical outcome...minus risking war by running through Albania which I'm trying to avoid and see if Bulgaria is willing to accept not having Macedonia considering them being completely occupied attempting to take Adrianople and no diplomatic discussions about how Macedonia should be split...therefore allowing me to realisitcally take all of Macedonia. We really should discuss this in greater detail somehow in real time.

to summarize...I like this scneario and I joined it because I wanted to see if Yugoslavia could happen as it did with the Dual Monarchy still exist relatively close in size as before ww1. I want it to happen without genocide and without the fascism you're automatically assuming will occur that'll wreck the region for the next 2 centuries if we take your proposed outcome which I find to be extreme to the, well, extreme.

If you have msn messenger... mihajlovic_1@hotmail.com

ICQ: 71068186

Name your preference...or I could sign up on some other service of your preference.

One thing that confuses me, you're taking such extreme actions to prevent me from assisting the Bulgarians taking on the Porte but doing nothing to stop Bulgaria from taking on the Porte. What's up with that? If I decide to help them regardless by marching through Kosovo and Macedonia you war on me, and by the Balkan League war on Bulgaria, Greece(both of whom you've made every effort to get on your side), Romania, and Montenegro. Don't mind me if the answer should be blatantly obvious to me.

Ah the old Slippery Slope argument; if I do something once I must do it to everyone regardless of whether or not their claims are legitimate.No, the old "Blood-in-the-Water" argument. Once a nation is seen to accept the idea that its borders can be adjusted to allow its neighbors to appropriate lands inhabited by "their" ethnic minorities, then the laws of realpolitik will make it so.The lands I asked to be ceded in no way could Habsburg ever have legitimate territorial claims.If ethnicity were the only legitimate basis for making such claims, that would be so. But - and apparently you missed this - I rejected ethnicity as a possible basis for making claims against the territory of one's neighbors.

You see, you have to be a nationalist to believe that ethnicity matters when it comes to drawing borders, and I'm not. I see nationalism as the shortest and surest path to fascism, and - in case you haven't noticed it - condemned it as such. I mean, when has nationalism not led to fascism?

It's funny, but everyone is so worried about socialism, which is simply a utopian ideology that is doomed to extinction through its own contradictions (the Vienna School of Economics, led by Ludwig von Mises, predicted the failure of socialism back in the 20's), but no one is worried about nationalism, an ideology that proved to be every bit as lethal as socialism, and will still be viable past the year 2000. People are weird like that.I highly doubt that your allies would demand territory from you.<peals of hysterical laughter>

Got any more good ones?The fact that they are allied indicates that they are satisfied with the diplomatic relations between your two countries and therefore have no reason to demand territory or any concessions...after all, why be allied? That doesn't mean you're more inclined to give stuff that doesn't belong to them. Do you always have so little faith in your allies?Do you trust yours?

There is no reason that it would be like drinking hemlock. When did this line of logic ever actually turn out to happen?Uh, the Dual Monarchy, 1919. Next question?Don't mind me complaining...I do that from time to time when it gets tough. I'll of course stick it through to the end. I was just hoping it wouldn't be as difficult as it did occur historically. I really need to use emoticons to show that I have a little bit of sarcasm in my text.

Nah...I'll see it to at the very least Serbia remains truly independant.Well, I got tired of the carping and whining, so I just gave you everything you wanted. Go have fun.I assumed that they would have already been mobilized given the heightened tensions in the region at the time I will announce full mobilizations after this post in the IC thread.I'm supposed to assume that you counter every move I make when I make it? That kind of puts me in the position of fighting your war for you, doesn't it? Do you give your enemies the benefit of the doubt? I don't think so, given that you wanted to know if it would be godmodding if you could just walk in and take over everything the Turks own (yes, you did ask that in an earlier post).Yes...very possible since you're mistaking the 150 000 I'm speaking of with the 30 000 conscripts that historically were along the Serbo-Habsburg border at this time.I'm not mistaking anything for anything. You said that Montenegro had 30,000 men in Macedonia without explaining how they got there. The rest of your army you can mobilise where you'd like, but I assume you'll have them all deployed in the south (at least from what you've been saying).

(Of course, I've "fixed" your little mistake with the Montenegrin forces by allowing them to secretly invade the Sanjak and rout a full army corps of my troops without taking any significant casualties. That should permit them to join up with the Serbian army and do whatever your little heart desires with them.)I am not seeing any mention of "vilayets of Ishkodra, Kosova, Monastir, and Yanya, and right now I'm doing exactly that.Follow this link. (http://www.frosina.org/uploads/images/map2.gif)And right now I do have troops in the Sanjak." on this map from wikipedia of the contested Macedonia region at the time. Where is there a map to show exactly where these vilayets are among Macedonia? That map that I have linked is from 1914.Well, that would be a problem, using a 1914 map, now wouldn't it. This is 1912, not 1914. Try looking at this 1899 map of the area (where Bosnia and Hercegovina have not yet been annexed) (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_states_1899.jpg), this map of competing claims (and showing 1912 borders) (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_aspirations_1914.jpg), and this map of the final division of spoils in 1913 (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_belligerants_1914.jpg), as well as this map, also of the division of spoils (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_modifications_1914.jpg).

Now see that finger of land between Montengro and Serbia? Yeah, that territory. That's the Sanjak. Oops, correction - that was the Sanjak. Thanks to your Montenegrin super-soldiers, it's yours now. :rolleyes:I must have missed it...could someone summarize how it led to there being Habsburg military forces in Kosovo and Macedonia? Especially Kosovo....Well, I've changed it all to allow you to kick my _ss, so that everyone will be happy.

But what had originally happened was that I massed troops, and then gotten the Turks to agree to let me in, and then force-marched my people into the Sanjak, after which I was going to continue on south into Kosova.

But because you've whined about it, I've decided that your troops mobilised in a week, crossing frozen and snow-covered passes, to fall upon my advancing forces by surprise and wipe them out. That spares you the need to actually RP, let alone do any historical research.

Of course, this is a terrible precedent, because it means that in a year or two, you'll be able to invade the Dual Monarchy and overrun Bosnian and Hercegovina, and maybe even Croatia and Slovenia before I can raise my armies (while Romania does the same thing in Hungary and Transylvania). But them's the breaks.Regardless of how you intend to fight any possible wars, the Dual Monarchy made extensive use of propaganda against the Serbs and the fact that a major Habsburg newspaper actually refered to the enemy as being well-equipped, daring, and brave means that it won't be that easy to chew me up and spit me out in pieces as you currently claim.Well, since I've accepted that Serbs and Montenegrin forces are the best troops in Europe - indeed, the world - there's no possible chance of me even defending my own soil from invasion any more. :rolleyes:Even if you attack from the north ... blah, blah, blah-diddy-blah ... my position is not as bad as you make it out to be albeit a difficult one nonetheless. Whatever.

Since I've conceded complete control of the region to you, I guess you'll never find out what I was planning. It probably wasn't anything worth considering, though. I mean, the Serbs and Montenegrins are total war gods, or something like that. :P

Basically, you've thoroughly ticked me off. Fortunately, you won't have to put up with me for very long. Enjoy your empire.

One thing that confuses me, you're taking such extreme actions to prevent me from assisting the Bulgarians taking on the Porte but doing nothing to stop Bulgaria from taking on the Porte. What's up with that? If I decide to help them regardless by marching through Kosovo and Macedonia you war on me, and by the Balkan League war on Bulgaria, Greece(both of whom you've made every effort to get on your side), Romania, and Montenegro. Don't mind me if the answer should be blatantly obvious to me.The answer should be blatantly obvious to you.

I am sick to death of people not doing research, showing up late to the party, RP'ing poorly, and godmodding. But then, that's NationStates, I guess.

Here's my problem: because people can't seem to get their acts together, someone needs to moderate this war. Now, I can't moderate it if I have a dog in the fight, so the only way this war will get a moderator is if I take a fall. So I guess I need to take a fall.

I have attempted to find maps that would allow me to do proper mobilization but have led to no success. I jsut noticed a couple you posted and am looking over them to fix my mobilization woes. I also have been fully unable to find any details whatsoever on the breakdown of the Serbian army and I'm afraid I'll godmod by assuming I have x num ber of artillery pieces, machine guns etc. All I know is by fall 1914 the Habsburg considered the Serbian army well equipped but in 1912 they were short of 125 000 rifles. I guess I'm asking that somewhere someone give me info I can use to do an effective mobilization of my forces without risking godmodding or being completely inaccurate.Well, you already have most of the data.

In 1914, the Serbs had 10 divisions, 5 active and 5 reserve. By some counts they had 11 divisions in 1912, but I think that includes the Bulgarian one that joined them in Macedonia. Almost everything they had was infantry, but they did have a few cavalry (or rather mounted infantry). They weren't very good, but better than the Turks.

Like the Bulgarians, the Serbs built Russian-style (vintage Napoleonic Wars) combined arms divisions, where infantry, cavalry, and artillery were all mixed into a single formation. They grouped these into "armies" rather than corps, and had three such forces, numbered 1st, 2nd, and 3rd (from their left to their right, or east to west).

They appear to have left about one-third of their troops along the Danube, which would be a good idea because 30,000 men would have never been enough to hold the line up there against the Dual Monarchy should they have crossed the border.

The Montenegrins raised 40,000 men, divided into three or four divisions. They had almost no cavalry.

I'll tell you what. Why don't you tell me: When the Montenegrins starting massing for war (i.e., the date).


When the Serbians started massing for war.


When each of the two was ready for war (quite apart from when you started massing).


When you would have crossed the border into those territories held by the Porte, and where.Now, you don't have to tell me how many men you've got in each column; just decide stick to it (and be honest).

I recommend - as I said elsewhere - using ViaMichelin (http://www.viamichelin.com/) to compute distances (using the "shortest route" calculation rather than the default). You can check weather for key towns along the way against historical averages (http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/country.php3?r=EUR&refer=). For example, we can see that the average March temperature in Nis was 7°C, with an average of 4cm precipitation (from here (http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/weather.php3?s=088331&refer=&units=metric). Since an average of only 8 days each month produced temperatures below freezing, it seems likely that most precipitation in March would be rain, with occasional freezing rain or sleet, and maybe even snow, but less of that by months end. On the other hand, as you climb nearby mountains, then that would tend to lower temperatures (and thereby produce ice and snow). As Nis is low (202m elevation) but nearby ranges like the Kopoanik quite high (2500m and higher), passes could easily be blocked.

For march rates, assume that good infantry can cover 22.5 miles (or 36km) a day, in three "stages" (this is from the miniatures rule-set Horse, Foot, and Gun (http://www.phil-barker.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/HFG.doc) across two "periods" (morning, afternoon, and night), with an advance of no more than two "stages" in one "period". If roads are wet or icy, only one "stage" per period is possible. If moving off road in closed or broken terrain, or in very bad weather, or moving along roads in horrible weather (torrential rains, ice storms, etc.), limit movement to one "stage" per day (pick which "period"). Thus, my infantry can move about 15 miles (or 24km) per day in the Senjak, while my cavalry can maybe do a little better (your cavalry were seldom used independently, so consider them outriders ahead of your columns).

Forced marches can increase this, but you can't force march for long. And remember that your supplies have to come up by waggon and are even slower; the armies of this era were simply too huge to live off the land.

I'm willing to reconsider a serious race to occupy these lands, but what ticks me off is that you're basically forcing me to make all my decisions up front and then let you make retrospective decisions. So if you decide that the Montenegrin army was ready for a fight on March 10th and invaded the Sanjak the following day, you'd better be prepared to explain why I didn't know you were massing and why I (apparently) chose to ignore it (because it's now the 29th and if you invaded in the 11th, what have I been doing for 18 days?!?).

I will tell you up front, however, that if you try to take any of the Porte's western lands by force, I will consider that an invasion of Albania and be forced to go to war with you - even if that means getting wiped out by your great South Slavic super-soldiers. :p

and – so bolstered – ally with Roumania in the eventual subversion and destruction of the Dual Monarchy, an endeavour in which they will eventually succeed, bringing fascism and genocide to the Balkans and snuffing out all hope of liberty in the region for the next two centuries.
[/B]
Now now...as you know, Fascism only existed after Benito Mussolini returned from World War I...since WWI has not happened it is easy to suggest that Fascism in the modern sense does not exist. The only Fascists that exist are the Fascio and they are nothing more than a party who wish to create a more democratic Italy. So hah!
[One of my favorite subjects is Fascism.]

Though I do intend for Fascism to exist, I'm just waiting for my chance to bring it forward.

O.K. I'm also involved, but I haven't said anything false so far (I hope so, at least) and I have a fair grasp of the situation in the Balkans (again, I hope so).

That's what I believe that has happened until now (not necessarily in chronological order, although I'll try):

I presume we are all on the 29th of March.

K.U.K.
Half of k.u.k.'s armies have mobilized by the 17th of March; the rest began mobilizing on the 27th or 28th (I have a poor memory :) ). Units of the 2nd army are entering Novi Pazar, assisted by smaller units detached from the armies that were on Serbia's borders.

Romania
I began mobilizing 14 divisions on the 17th; they were ready 10 days later. After that, I decided to mobilize all my armies. They will be ready for action on the 4th of April, in the morning. I have already posted that Army Group South was on the move, but after that NO posted something happening on the 28th. Since that army can only move after the 4th of April, I'll delete the post if everybody agrees.

Bulgaria
Bulgaria did not declare when have they began mobilizing, but apparently they were ready on the 28th to attack the Turks. All their armies are somewhere in the south. They are currently attacking Adrianople.

Greece
Greece has mobilized their army at some point in the past and they are ready to go and occupy the lands ceded to them by Turkey.
EDIT: They will mobilise and be ready on the 3rd-4th of April.

Serbia (and Montenegro)
They haven't announced their mobilisation, but it looks like they are ready to go/have gone already over the border. I say they haven't, at least not by the 29th of March.

Turkey
NO has posted their resources, but The Andromedan doesn't say how many divisions are located around Edirne or in Albania. Since he gave away the Egean Islans, he will only be able to reinforce his troops by land, unless Greece says otherwise. His army (whose strength will be determined later) is currently defending Adrianople. They have good chances to resist for a long time. The units in Salonika have been pulled back to defend Adrianople (one more reason the city shouldn't fall very fast). His armies in Albania are cooperating with the Austrian forces which have already entered Novi Pazar.

Since The Andromedan said he's not very experienced, I suggest he calls a general mobilization. Part of the troops should remain in Mesopotamia (present-day Iraq) and Palestine, as a defence against Britain. The rest should be sent by land or by sea (if Greece agrees) to defend Adrianople. If they are sent by land, IIRC, there was a railway between Baghdad and Constantinople, maybe also one linking Mecca to Constantinople.

So.......


Who's up for tacos?

Keep it simple. Crete was more or less independent in 1912, organised as the Cretan Republic but forbidden by the Turks to unite with Greece. There were no Turkish troops on the island, so on the day the note came through (March 28th), all you had to do was send a telegram, and the Cretan Assembly would have voted unification by nightfall. At that point, I figure they ran the Greek flag up the flagpole and it was yours.


Rhodes was occupied by the k.u.k. Kriegsmarine on the evening of the 28th; the rest of the islands would be under my control by the 30th. Figure that the Greek navy could send that spiffy new armoured cruiser of theirs out to Rhodes by April 4th and dump off some marines, and then the islands will be yours.


I think it took about a week for Greece to mass its armies, which means that by April 3rd or 4th you could be rolling into Salonika from Thessaly. Be aware of the fact that movement through the mountains of northern Greece may take a little longer in April than October.


Remember that the Porte gave Yanya (Epirus and southern Albania) to the Albanians, and that I have agreed to press the new Albanian government for surrender of Greek lands to Greece when the negotiations come; therefore, I recommend shifting your Epirus Army to Thessaly. I would assume this can happen during mobilisation, so you should be able to have that army join the one in Thessaly immediately and begin marching north on the same day (April 3rd or 4th).Now see how easy that is?

Yep. *Itches at his large forehead sticker labelled "n00b".* :p

The main reason for my confusion was more or less based on RP edique more than anything though I'll admit I'm very much unfamiliar with this time period.

But it is proving interesting. :rolleyes:

Anywho... yeah that's pretty much want I wish to do though I still have to decide whether I should send the Epirus army beyond Thessaly... I'm not really comfortable about leaving my nation defenseless atm............

One thing that confuses me, you're taking such extreme actions to prevent me from assisting the Bulgarians taking on the Porte but doing nothing to stop Bulgaria from taking on the Porte. What's up with that? If I decide to help them regardless by marching through Kosovo and Macedonia you war on me, and by the Balkan League war on Bulgaria, Greece(both of whom you've made every effort to get on your side), Romania, and Montenegro. Don't mind me if the answer should be blatantly obvious to me.

More than likely for the same reason why I am not going to let the turks (and british for that matter) cross either the Aegean or Salonika (not that I can really do much about that if my army doesn't arrive before said turks).

It's quite simple really, if the battle remains fairly even then the chances of both sides weaking each other significantly is much higher compared to if the battle was one sided. This means that you get your rivals to fight your wars for you and as a result your ratio of power dramatically increases at their expense.

Of course (and this is a sekret so shh! :p), once my troops are in position I'm going to do as much as I can to assist Bulgaria because I need them to help me grab Constantinople. A strong Bulgaria will also mean a stronger balkan alliance which, if britain decides to get huffy over my decision to deny them access to the Aegean, I'm going to need.

Am I correct?

Basically, you've thoroughly ticked me off. Fortunately, you won't have to put up with me for very long. Enjoy your empire.

Erm......

*Hands you a cookie taco*

I think you earned it.Please don't go! We need your enthusiasm!!

SIZE=1]Please don't go! We need your enthusiasm!![/SIZE]
I subscribe to this.

O.K., I'll go take my medication.

<gulp ... swallow>

I shouldn't get so ticked off about this stuff. Just because I have the Magic Google Fingers doesn't mean that everyone (or anyone) else should. Then, too, the prevalent NS RP culture is one of relentless BS delivery ("Hauptmann! Fire a mixed barrage of HE and mustard, with lots of BS!!!"), so I should just expect that.

So I've decided not to drink the Kool-Aid after all. I will grey out my earlier post.

I concur with Bogey's assessment of the situation. And no, he doesn't need to retract orders dating April 4th - they just don't take effect yet.

Planning for a vacation today (first in 3 years), so I'll post later. However...

I'm going to ask some things of people: Slavic Byzantium (Serbia and Montenegro): Please state when Montenegro began mobilisation, how long it took, when it was finished, when Montenegrin troops crossed the frontier into Albania and the Sanjak, where they crossed, and in what strength (only vanguard units need be identified - you can send 1,000 men ahead as a screen to keep me from seeing a bigger force further back, but mentally commit yourself to the location, size, disposition, and line of advance of that bigger force). Assume that Montenegro has 40,000 men, in roughly 40 battalions of 1,000 men each, with only a few (1-3) squadrons of cavalry. I'll post a detailed Montengrin OOB tonight.

Then do the same for Serbia: when did mobilisation start, how long did it take, when was it finished, when did Serbia troops cross the frontier into the Sanjak, Kosova, and Macedonia, where did they cross, and in what strength. Assume 400,000 men under arms at full mobilisation (I may amend this), in 10 divisions (I may amend this), all of foot and artillery with maybe a regiment of horse (I may amend this) each. Leave something along the Danube (you'll need it). Again, you don't need to ID all units in an army, just the vanguard units. Unlike Montenegro, whose forces are small enough to not have supply problems, plan to have to have a steady stream of waggons from a major city or (preferably) rail depot for supply. You don't have to reveal anything, just commit to something on the honour system.

It's a good idea to break up your divisions into corps (the Serbs called them "armies", like the Bulgarians [see below]) and assign commanders to them (I'll have actual names of commanders tonight).

Remember, if you enter Albania, Macedonia, Kosova, or the Sanjak in force, you will be at war with the Dual Monarchy. If you're not prepared to do that, don't enter these lands.


Lachenburg (Bulgaria): Deploy your troops into divisions (there were 11 of these, and the last was "biggie-sized" (if you're European, that's an American consumerist joke), and then armies (actually, corps). Assume 450,000 men (an average between the "high-water" estimate of 575,000 men and the "low-water" estimate of 350,000 men), deployed in mixed divisions like the Serbs.

Then announce, like the Serbo-Montenegrins, when you began raising your army, when was ready, when it crossed the border, where it crossed the border, and in what strength (vanguard units only). Also, work out your supply lines (really, waggon train routes) and take into consideration the fact that Bulgarian logistics support was horrible.


New Dracora (Greece): We already have your OOB, so just set your starting positions and announce your dates of mobilisation, readiness, and first crossing of the frontier into Salonkia, and avenue of advance. This will determine when the Turks in Macedonia get cut off from Adrianople. Don't bother with supply lines until after you've secured Salonika.


The Andromedan (The Sublime Porte): Set your initial forces in a line (the best way is to use towns as reference points). Assume 12 divisions (each only 75% as large as anybody else's) and 115,000 men, plus a permanent (immobile) garrison of 6,000 men in Edirne (Adrianople). Like everyone else, assume mixed divisions of foot, horse, and gun. Assume that it takes one-third of a day to entrench and two-thirds day to build an artillery redoubt. Further work can build extra trench lines, but men can not march or work for more than two-thirds of a day (16 hours) without resting for one-third of a day (8 hours). Units can move by railroad; consult me for the timing of arrival.I will post "rules" for movement and combat tonight to support this campaign, but the more you post now and the sooner you can post it, the better.

More to come.

And no, he doesn't need to retract orders dating April 4th - they just don't take effect yet.
I'll retract them anyway. I said they'll reach Edirne in 5-7 days, after measuring the distance on the map with a ruler. I got 250 Km. After using the prgram you have posted, the distance Constanta-Edirne is 520 Km. They should be marathon runners to cross the distance so fast.

Planning for a vacation today (first in 3 years),
Have fun!

Bogey
It just dawned on me! Are you calling me Bogey because I'm calling you NO? If that's the case, you are free to continue doing so, I'm too lasy to type Narodna Odbrana. Oops, I just did it! :p

It just dawned on me! Are you calling me Bogey because I'm calling you NO? If that's the case, you are free to continue doing so, I'm too lasy to type Narodna Odbrana. Oops, I just did it! :pYeah, it's a good abbreviation. Or would you rather be Bogie? ;)

Montenegro (est. 35,000-40,000 men)

Mobilisation Method: Levée en Masse

Organisation: 4 Mountain Infantry “Divisions”, each of:


12-15 Mountain Infantry Battalions, each of:


~600+ men


1 Mixed Mountain Artillery Battery, of:


~10 field guns


~20 Maxim guns


1 Mounted Rifle “Battalion”, of:


~500+ Men w/RemountsComments: The overall number of “Battalions” (including the Mounted Rifles) was somewhere in the 50-60 range (the 1914 OOB shows 54 battalions, by way of reference; that’s a good baseline to use here).


The field pieces and Maxim guns would likely be pack weapons rather than limbered ones.


All Montenegrin troops should be considered mountaineers, including the mounted rifles.


The Montenegrin “Divisions” should be assigned a geographical base, and mobilised there. They should be named either after their theatre of war (eg., “Scutari” Division) or their place of origin (eg, “Lovcen” Division). There was a “Starosrbijanski” Division (“Greater Serbia” or something like that?) in 1914, so patriotic names would also be acceptable. Numbers would likely only be used if it was necessary.


These troops were aggressive, enjoyed high morale, and were well led. However, the lack of organised support services would be a problem in a long war (although the Montenegrins did at least begin organising replacement units to replenish losses among their field forces as the war dragged on).


For purposes of comparison, a Montenegrin “Division” would be about the size of a Turkish division, but only half- to two-thirds the size of a k.u.k. division.

The names below include titles ("Prenk", which means "Prince", "Bej" and "Pashë", which are localised versions of Osmanli titles, "Primo" for the Abbot of Orosh, etc.). Some parts of these names are place titles, too.Esat Pashë, Toptani clan (Southern Central Albania)
Ded Coku, Kapedan (tribal leader) of the Malësi

Aqit Pashë Biçaku (politician in Elbasan)

Prenk Didë Doda Pashë, Kapedan of the Mirditë (centered near Orosh)

Primo Dochi (Italian), Catholic Abbot of the Abbey Nullius of Saint Alexander of Orosh (spiritual leader of the Mirditë)

Ismail Qemal Bey Vlorë (political leader in Vlorë, well-known in foreign capitols); became first Prime Minister of the Provisional Government

Fezji Bej Alizoti
Petro Poga
Jorji Çako
Luigi Gurakuqi
Lef NosiWhen Albania became a Kingdom (not certain here, because this was more something that Europe wanted than the Albanians, the "Prince" of Albania was called "Mbret" ("Imperator" in Albanian). In spite of the sound, this title is more or less the equivalent of King.

BTW, just for fun, an American President of the Cold War era was actually 11th in the line for the Albanian throne. His name? Richard Milhaus Nixon (his last name being a corrupted version of an Albanian name).

Bulgaria (est. 450,000-570,000 men)

Mobilisation Method: Reserve System

Organisation:

Bulgaria's peacetime military establishment consisted of nine infantry divisions and a cavalry division. Each of the infantry divisions was assigned a district, and was responsible for all training of conscripts within the district. The cavalry division was national in scope, but only accounted for half the nation's horse; each of the infantry divisions had a regiment of two squadrons in its OOB.

Divisions were both numbered and named (eg, 7th Rila Division), where the name was the name of the district where the division was raised. Most historical accounts simply use their numbers, however.

This is what those nine infantry divisions looked like: 2 Infantry Brigades


2 Infantry Regiments


4 Infantry Battalions (2 Regular & 2 Reserve)


4 Rifle Companies


270 riflemen


8 pioneers (sappers)


1 Machine-Gun Company


4 Maxim guns


Service Company (Support)


200 men


3 officers


2 Cavalry Squadrons


1 Field Artillery Regiment


9 Rapid-Fire Batteries, each of


4 Schneider-Canet 75mm quick-firing field guns


6 Field Gun Batteries, each of


6 Krupp field guns


1 Engineer Battalion, of


Telegraph Section


Pontoon Section


Railway Section


Balloon Section


Mining SectionThis is what the cavalry division looked like: 1 Guards Regiment, of


3 Squadrons


4 Cavalry Regiments, each of


4 SquadronsThere were extra units after call-up; these were used to form two more infantry divisions, one of 2 brigades (16 battalions) and one of 3 brigades (24 battalions). One source I have suggests that 288 battalions were raised in 1912, which leaves 104 unaccounted for. These could have been militia, deployed internally for defence, or replacements, or used as independent brigades and whatnot.

Bulgaria also had a mountain artillery brigade of: 9 Rapid-Fire Batteries, each of


4 Schneider-Canet 75mm quick-firing field guns


6 Field Gun Batteries, each of


6 Krupp field gunsThis is essentially the same as a standard field artillery brigade, and so could have provided the artillery for one of the two extra divisions; alternately, the extra divisions could simply be committed to the siege of Adrianople as surplus units (what the k.u.k. would call "march battalions" and what the Germans would call "ersatz" formations, in which case this artillery would have simply gone along with them. This last course is what I recommend.

The Bulgarians also had some siege guns: Siege/Fortress Artillery Groups, each of


2 Batteries, each of


4 155mm howitzers


12 munition waggons
There were also some other howitzers: 9 Rapid-Fire Howitzer Batteries, each of


4 quick-firing howitzers


5 Field Howitzer Batteries, each of


6 field howitzersAnd finally, there were some older Russian or Turkish field pieces. 6 Batteries, each of


6 field gunsAgain, I would simply lump all these guns, new and old, field gun and howitzer, into a single unit (of 126 field guns and 66 howitzers), and send them - with the extra two "overflow" divisions (of 5 brigades, totalling 40 battalions, or about 40,000 men) to the Siege of Adrianople.

Comments: Bulgarian artillery was excellent. It won them battle after battle against the Turks in the First Balkan War.


A shortage of horses forced Bulgaria to rely on oxen for transport. This resulted in very poor resupply, which hampered them during the Siege of Adrianople. As good as the Bulgarians were in battle, their supply services were a disaster; getting enough shells to press the siege around Adrianople was a serious problem.


Bulgarian troops were fearless and aggressive to the point of being rash. The were deadly in melee and eagerly partook of it; night attacks were a speciality of theirs. Unfortunately this sometimes caused them to charge the enemy instead of lying back and exchanging fire, resulting in unnecessary causalities. But their ferocity in hand-to-hand combat gave them a terrifying reputation in the eyes of their enemies.


Ultimately, Bulgaria was defeated because it got worn down by the Siege of Adrianople and then overwhelmed by enemies. But even when things looked worst the Bulgarians still fought on heroically.


Bulgarian cavalry was poor due to a shortage of good horses, and on top of that they tended to prefer fighting on foot rather than from the saddle. Their scouting tactics were miserable.Historical Deployment: 1st Army (79.000) - General Vasil Kutinchev - Near Kharmanli (http://www.fallingrain.com/world/BU/43/Kharmanli.html)


2+ Divisions (estimated)


2nd Army (123,000) - General Nikola Ivanov - Yambol (http://www.fallingrain.com/world/BU/65/Yambol.html)


4 Divisions + 1 Cavalry Division (estimated)


3rd Army (95,000) - General Radko Dimitriev - Yambol (http://www.fallingrain.com/world/BU/65/Yambol.html)


3 Divisions (estimated)


Western Forces (82,000 + 16,000 irregulars [partisans]) - Various Commanders Near the Rhodope Mountains (http://www.fallingrain.com/world/BU/38/Sandanski.html)


2+ Divisions (estimated)


Militia (58,000) - Various Commanders - Throughout Bulgaria

Turks and Serbians yet to come. But don't wait for me on this...

Slavic Byzantium, what's the hold-up?

Where do you get all this information? You must be the most awsome googler ever.

Serbia (est. 300,000-350,000 men)

Mobilisation Method: Reserve System

Organisation:

Serbia was divided into 5 military regions (krajina?), each named after a river: Dunavska (Danube)


Drinska (Drina)


Moravska (Morava)


Sumadijska (Sumadija)


Timoska (Timok)Each district maintained a regular army division (Divizija I Poziva [“First-Line Division”]; upon mobilisation, this division would be filled out with every reservist below the age of 30 who had passed through its ranks.

Reservists aged 31-37 years would then be used to mobilise a regular reserve division (Divizija II Poziva [“Second-Line Division”]), which would be identical to the regular division from that region in organisation (see below) except in that it would have only 3 infantry regiments instead of the standard 4, 2 cavalry squadrons in its divisional cavalry regiment (instead of three), and two artillery “divisions” in its artillery regiment instead of three.

Consequently, regular divisions would – if fully staffed – have 27,725 men while regular reserve divisions would have about 5,000 fewer men.

Men aged 38-45 years would be formed into independent regiments (Puki III Poziva [“Third-Line Regiments”]); men past the age of 45 would be consigned to the Poslednja Odbrana [“Regional(?) Defence (or Guard?)].

In both 1912 and 1914, the Serbs raised a number of small detachments for use in more remote areas (eg., Uzice brigade, Lim detachment). It is unclear if these were I Poziva, II Poziva, or III Poziva units. They also had an observation balloon in both wars, FWIW.

One source also suggests that Serbia had a cavalry division in 1912. They certainly had one in 1914. Given that the Serbian reserve system looks so much like the Bulgarian one and the Bulgarians raised such a division, I think the Serbs should be given one as well.

So, taking all of the forgoing into account, this is what I suggest: 5 First-Line Infantry Divisions (est. 27,000 men):


Dunavska Divizija I Poziva


Drinska Divizija I Poziva


Moravska Divizija I Poziva


Sumadijska Divizija I Poziva


Timoska Divizija I Poziva

Each of:


4 Infantry Regiments (Pesadijski Puk), each of:


4 Infantry Battalions (Pesadijski Bataljon), each of:


4 Infantry Platoons (Pesadijski Ceta), each of:


~250 men


1 Machinegun Section (Mitraljesko Odeljenje), of:


4 Machine guns


1 Telegraph-Signal Section (Telegrafsko-Signalno Odeljenje)


Medical First-Aid (Previjaliste)


Field Kitchens (Bojna Komora)


1 Cavalry Regiment (Konjicki Puk), of:


3 Cavalry Squadrons (Konjicki Eskadron), each of:


~150(?) men


1 Machinegun Section (Mitraljesko Odeljenje), of:


4 Machine guns


1 Artillery Regiment (Artiljerijski Puk), of:


3 Artillery Divisions (Artiljerijski Divizion), each of:


3 Batteries, each of:


4 field guns


1 Engineer Demi-Battalion (Inzenjerijski Polubatajlon), of:


2 Engineer Platoons (Inzenjerijski Ceta), of


??? men


1 Telegraph Section (Telegrafsko Odeljenje)


Support Units (Pozadinske Jedinice), providing:


Field Hospitals


Supplies


5 Second-Line Infantry Divisions (est. 22,000 men):


Dunavska Divizija II Poziva


Drinska Divizija II Poziva


Moravska Divizija II Poziva


Sumadijska Divizija II Poziva


Timoska Divizija II Poziva

Each of:


3 Infantry Regiments (Pesadijski Puk), each of:


4 Infantry Battalions (Pesadijski Bataljon), each of:


4 Infantry Platoons (Pesadijski Ceta), each of:


~250 men


1 Machinegun Section (Mitraljesko Odeljenje), of:


4 Machine guns


1 Telegraph-Signal Section (Telegrafsko-Signalno Odeljenje)


Medical First-Aid (Previjaliste)


Field Kitchens (Bojna Komora)


1 Cavalry Regiment (Konjicki Puk), of:


2 Cavalry Squadrons (Konjicki Eskadron), each of:


~150(?) men


1 Machinegun Section (Mitraljesko Odeljenje), of:


4 Machine guns


1 Artillery Regiment (Artiljerijski Puk), of:


2 Artillery Divisions (Artiljerijski Divizion), each of:


3 Batteries, each of:


4 field guns


1 Engineer Demi-Battalion (Inzenjerijski Polubataljon), of:


2 Engineer Platoons (Inzenjerijski Ceta), of:


??? men


1 Telegraph Section (Telegrafsko Odeljenje)


Support Units (Pozadinske Jedinice), providing:


Field Hospitals


Supplies


1 Cavalry Division (Konjicki Divizion), of:


2 Cavalry Brigades, each of:


2 Cavalry Regiments (Konjicki Puk), each of:


4 Cavalry Squadrons (Konjicki Eskadron), each of:


~150(?) men


1 Artillery Division (Artiljerijski Divizion), of:


3 Batteries, each of:


4 field guns


Assorted III Poziva and Chetnik (Partisan) formations, from ~500 men to a brigade in size.Comments: Serbian units were had a relatively low ratio of officers to men, and were also light on support services. This meant that, man for man, the Serbs had more people up front carrying rifles (and thus potentially more hitting power), but at the cost of tactical flexibility and logistical staying power (especially when on the offencive).


In defence, the Serbs made up for the lack of flexibility by fielding many small reserve formations as independent units and recruiting partisans.


Another side effect of the low officer-to-enlisted ratio was a potential loss of discipline in dealing with “enemy” civilians”. The occupation of Kosova and Macedonia produced a great many massacres among Albanians and Macedonians unfortunate enough to be living on “Serbian” soil.


The relative lack of modern rifles in 1912 meant that some second-line and most third-line formations may have had older breech-loading cartridge rifles (the Horse, Foot, and Gun rules treat all Serb infantry as class BL [breech-loaders]; this might have been a matter of marksmanship training as much as anything else). The cavalry were trained to dismount and skirmish, and so they should be reckoned to have better firepower (in terms of aim, not range).


The cavalry were generally good riders on good horses, but not trained to be used aggressively. Their scouting capabilities were quite good, however.


Because Serbia had lost its last war to the Porte rather badly, morale was not as high as it would be in the Second Balkan War (the troops were still unsure of themselves).Historical Deployment: 1st Army (123,000) - Crown Prince Alexander - Morava Valley (http://www.fallingrain.com/world/YI/2/Bujanovac.html)


5(?) Divisions + Cavalry (estimated)


2nd Army (74,000) - General Stepa Stepanovic - Along Bulgarian frontier


Tiloska Divizija I(?) Poziva


Bulgarian 7th Rila Division


3rd Army (76,000) - Gen Bozidar Jankovic - Tulare(?) (http://www.fallingrain.com/world/YI/2/Tulare.html)


3(?) Divisions (estimated)


Ibar Army (25,000) - Gen Mikhail Zivkovic - Ibar Valley (http://www.fallingrain.com/world/YI/2/Pavlica.html)


1 Division


Javor Brigade (12,000) - Lieutentant Colonel Milovoje Andjelkovic - Mount Javor (http://www.fallingrain.com/world/YI/2/Ivanjica.html)

Where do you get all this information? You must be the most awsome googler ever.My Google Gnomes get it for me (see the core RP thread). ;)

I have begun to turn my defensive line into a Maginot type barrier, artillery bunkers with blockhouses and trenches are placed every .5 miles, a "fire trap" defense mechanism has been installed armound the bunkers, blockhouses and trenches and armoung major forts and cities (adrianople, gallpoli, cataka, Istanbul)

"fire trap" is a simple medevil method to stop advancing armies by pouring oil at a selected area and setting it aflame using a torch ( or in my case, from the walls of the city using a flaming arrow, i like to keep it oldskool) this flame can go on for about 13 hours at the most, which will be enough to mow down the enemy with machine guns from walls, trenches or bunkers. Around Adrianople, trenches and flooded areas have been installed around the areas not protected by bunkers or gatehouses, gatehouses, in general will have 50 troops on each small one, and 350 troops on the main entrances also artillery and light field cannons and my favorite, 8 machine gun placements.

Since the real Ottoman empire did not have the luxury, I chatted with germany in this game, and bought many 150 mm. howitzer artillery cannons to protect my line, along with the german 88 mm. field cannon ( though I'm not too sure it was invented at the time, I'll have to double check with Naroda Odbrana)

Hello, anybody there?

I'm here. :)have begun to turn my defensive line into a Maginot type barrier, artillery bunkers with blockhouses and trenches are placed every .5 miles, a "fire trap" defense mechanism has been installed armound the bunkers, blockhouses and trenches and armoung major forts and cities (adrianople, gallpoli, cataka, Istanbul)Impractical while under fire. Also way more expensive than the Porte could afford.

The defensive perimeter used by the Turks in 1912-13 was called the Chataldzha (or alternately, Tchataldja) lines. These lines had been used for a very long time (they had been broken by Russia in the 1877-78 war). The Prussian military mission under von der Goltz directed the Turks to strengthen them before the war:The ring-fortress of Adrianople, the coast-forts of the Dardanelles, and the lines of Tchataldja were constructed under the directions of German engineers and armed with the most popular of all German exports, Krupp guns (from here (http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-enemy/sultan-army.htm)).Mostly, these were earthen trench-works. But earthen trench-works were extremely effective (much more effective than those "30-foot stone walls" that you boast about, and which you ought to lose; stone, when struck by modern artillery, fragments into horrible shrapnel-like chips that add injury to insult for eany nearby defenders)."fire trap" is a simple medevil method to stop advancing armies by pouring oil at a selected area and setting it aflame using a torch ( or in my case, from the walls of the city using a flaming arrow, i like to keep it oldskool) this flame can go on for about 13 hours at the most, which will be enough to mow down the enemy with machine guns from walls, trenches or bunkers. Around Adrianople, trenches and flooded areas have been installed around the areas not protected by bunkers or gatehouses, gatehouses, in general will have 50 troops on each small one, and 350 troops on the main entrances also artillery and light field cannons and my favorite, 8 machine gun placements."Old school" will lose you your nation. This is 1912, not 1219.

I mean, why not just cover those approaches with nice, tangled thickets of good old barbed wire? The Turks had it and used it and it was terribly effective, in that the other guy has to try to have their sappers sneak up on it in the dark and attempt to cut it. And occasional flare or two, and you've got yourself dead sappers.

"Arrows" to light "flaming oil"? Please. Real men use rifles. Get with the program.Since the real Ottoman empire did not have the luxury, I chatted with germany in this game, and bought many 150 mm. howitzer artillery cannons to protect my line, along with the german 88 mm. field cannon ( though I'm not too sure it was invented at the time, I'll have to double check with Naroda Odbrana)The 88 was not yet invented. Most Turkish guns were Krupps (77mm). Ugh. The French had much better weapons (the Schneider 75mm quick-firing field gun; the Bulgarians have a bunch of them).

In 1912, the Turkish army was organized along German lines. Here's another quote, from right after the war:It was to the direction of this defeated army that General Liman von Sanders was called by the Turkish government last summer, and the organisation of the force placed under his command must have been strangely familiar to his Prussian eye. Military service, which begins at the age of nineteen, lasts for three years with the colours in a Nizam regiment of the first line. The conscript then passes for six years to the Ichtiat or Reserve, for eleven years to the Redif, which composes two bans of the Landwehr, and for a final two years to the Mutafitz, or Landsturm. The infantry is armed with Mauser rifles and Maxim and Hotchkiss machine guns; the artilley of all calibres is Krupp, including some Krupp 4.7 inch field Howitzers, with the single exception of a few batteries of French-made Creusot mountain-guns.

ethnic majorities. I was hoping to use reasons other than those but I suppose it's not realistic...well I expected it not to be...just a fool's hope.

Well anyone can claim it's not a certian reason when it could very well be. I know a nation does not need to be and some have succeeded amazingly as multi-cultural nations once the generally white majority learned not to strike down against the minorities that were not white and Catholic. One such example would be Canada. I guess I'm RP'ing Serbia's intentions somewhat unrealistically. I might have better luck using the right to self-determination. As time passed on and on and the Dual Monarchy kept opressing Serbs and Serb culture they wanted to join their bretheren in Serbia more and more.

I'm not really so much worried about socialism. Usually somewhere at some time long ago someone will predict the end of something that may or may not come true. It is supposed to work if all the proper steps are taken and the proper leadership exists to see it through to its end. The USSR was...weird to say the least. I am not surprised in the slightest things ended up as it did.

Laugh all you want but I guess I have a fool's trust of my allies. Sure, hae contigencies for the event relations turn sour, but generally speaking if you're allied then you don't have critical problems with that nation...otherwise why form an alliance? If you dislike another nation and don't want troubles, a Non Aggression Pact would work.

I do trust my allies. I would even trust Bulgaria. If certain events that occured in 1912-1913 can be avoided then Bulgaria would have no need to sneak attack Greece and Serbia and fail miserably at that.

Uh, Serbia DoW'ing Dual Monarchy...oh wait, it was the other way around! They forced war on Serbia because of the assassination of Franz Ferdinand which was at the hands of an extremist group trying to get B-H to become part of a Greater Serbia (not necessarily the political agenda of the actual Serb-Montenegren politicians except a fair number of blindly patriotic ones in Serbia and Russia thinking a Greater Serbia would work better than a Yugoslavia) and they got their annhilation as a reward for letting their hawk lobby make war happen. Even the German Kaiser attempted to prevent war but he picked an unlucky time to go on vacation, alliances kicked in and well, the rest is history. Dual Monarchy 1919 could easily have happened if the simple act of not declaring war on Serbia did not occur.

Yeah who wouldn't get tired of it.

Nope, just assumed what I stated I did. Yes I did ask. Probably shouldn't have.

Ah that's what you were refering to...oopsies.

What did you type in to search I wonder? I tried simple things like maps of <x> etc. but not much luck even past the first page.

I bloody well know what the Sandjak is. I did say unite at that front but not the how of it which is what you red flagged.

You should know I did do research and turned up with little. There is a good reason why teachers and profs recommend you avoid googling your research and I have no time to get to a library that might be big enough to contain information on the Balkans prior to world war 1 or the names of major roads in Kosovo and such. Just because you get good luck with it and I don't certainly does not mean you can acuse me of not doing any research. Realise that for a moment please.

Ah yes, my dear old friend Sarcasm, we meet again.

Right just dismiss the fact I got lucky for a change and discovered the terrain of 1912 Serbia and lo and behold what actually borders with the Dual Monarchy is not plains and big wide super highways which makes a general attack somewhat (to say the least) difficult.

Hey Sarcasm! you just keep popping up everywhere! It's nice to see you're visiting me regularily! :rolleyes:

Interesting...invade Turkey and you assume it's Albania...so if I land by Constantinople you'll assume I really took Tirana? :confused: :mad: *I just read your latest RP post so disregard this*

Thanks for all the help though, the nonsarcastic posts should give me all the info I require. :)

------------------------------------
That may be true in that the enemies get weakened without you losing much of anything, but by doing this NO practically forces himself into the war if I so much as fart without his permission. Thereby making your line of logic ND somewhat flawed.

Ye be correct.

------------------------------------

Okay...here goes.

March 10

-Montenegro begins secret mobilization. The soldiers do not mass into one big parade square for everyone to see, the combined army is relatively small, no one really expects Montenegro to mobilization to strike against enemies with armies about as large as Montenegro's own population so they pull this part off.

March 11

- King Nikola reveals to Prime Minister Bratianu and King Petar that he has ordered full mobilization of Montenegren forces. Due to it being the wintertime, the standard of one week for Montenegro cannot be met and due to weather conditions full mobilization will be delayed by an unknown amount.

-Montenegro's mobilization causes King Petar to order a full mobilization of the Serbian armies. Secret mobilization for Serbia cannot occur after more than a few days given its much larger size in comparison to the Montenegren military forces.

(I would like to know what calibre artillery pieces I likely would have...similar to the Bulgarians or...?)

March 25

-10 day estimation due to winter was not enough and it took twice as long as the standard time. Montenegren forces are fully mobilized.

March 29

- All Serbian forces are fully mobilized where designated in RP thread. Larger size and preparing supply routes and depots along with witner conditions was cuase for extra time. 1st army is enroute through Bulgaria. (too bloody tired to calculate stuff it's 2am right now and I have to be at work at 7am...tomorrow I'll calculate time to reach Adrianople.

As time passed on and on and the Dual Monarchy kept opressing Serbs and Serb culture they wanted to join their bretheren in Serbia more and more.
I'm afraid NO wants to create a "Triple Monarchy", with a separate state for the Slavs.

The real reason I posted: I've noticed some people don't know exactly the borders in the Balkans in our period. Here (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_states_1899.jpg) is a map of the Balkans in 1899. The only differences in 1912 are that K.u.K. has annexed Bosnia-Herzegovina and that Crete is practically independent (I'm talking about the situation before the start of the war).

OOC: i don't know whats going on in the Balkans but i want to get invalved. so if you could please fill me in so i don't have to read an hours worth of posts. or something

Well, I kind of thought that everybody already expected, 3 to 4 lines of barbed wire, so I didn't want to state the obvious, and I ment to buy the 150 mm. howizter as a long range artillery peice that would essentially destroy the bulgarian first assault. And OMG, didn't I already say that there would be a seris of treches and ditches before the main wall? With this I could slow down movement and mow em' down baby, YEE HAW (trying to make american joke sry :( )

and whatever you say about the fire trap, it WOULD work, the british used it as a defense mechanism against the germans, (which they though would try to cross the english channel) , what if your troops were charging and suddenly fire erupted out of the ground, with in seconds the attack would have most likley stopped, and the fleeing troops would be killed by machine gun fire, and I said the bow and arrow comment, just to be symbolic, I just though it would be cool :rolleyes: , but the rifle would be good too. I'd say it was more of a joke.

I will state that I DO have 4 lines of barbed wire and trenches, following after the fire trap. OK?

Well, I kind of thought that everybody already expected, 3 to 4 lines of barbed wire, so I didn't want to state the obvious, and I ment to buy the 150 mm. howizter as a long range artillery peice that would essentially destroy the bulgarian first assault. And OMG, didn't I already say that there would be a seris of treches and ditches before the main wall? With this I could slow down movement and mow em' down baby, YEE HAW (trying to make american joke sry :( )Don't be too cocky. Those 150mm guns won't be as useful in the field as those Bulgarian quick-firing 75mm pieces, and don't forget the possibility of night attack...

Finally, I have found a map depicting the vilayets of European Turkey!

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1900.htm#%20here

Man, those Greeks made off like bandits, didn't they? ;)

The vilayet of Salonika is certainly quite large, but not very well connected to the rest of Greece. Another problem is that most of the inhabitants aren't Greeks. In RL, they would find it difficult to administer the region. In our universe, we'll have to see. ;)

EDIT: I know you said you have the census data for the Turkish vilayets, but anyway, I'll give here the data for the four Albanian vilayets, together with nationality estimates (for those who didn't know: the Turks only recorded a person's faith, not his nationality). Of course, it's Albanian estimates, so I expect the data to be biased in their favor. For one thing, my Vlachs seem to be always mentioned together with the Orthodox Albanians, which makes me believe their numbers are certainly over the 117 400 estimate given there.

After this wave of forceful emigration and ethnic cleansing, the space of ethnic Albanians became reduced considerably. Nevertheless, the Albanian regions were relatively peaceful, as far as the resettling of population is concerned, up to 1912. According to statistical evidence and approximate calculations, the ethnic structure of the population in four Albanian vilayets in 1912 (out of the total number of 2,351,200 inhabitants) was as follows: Albanians 1,452,100 or 61.7%; Macedonians 317,000 or 13.5%; Greeks 170,700 or 7,3%; Serbs 163,900 or 6.9%; Turks 130,400 or 5.5%; Wallachs 117,400 or 5.4%, and others 2,200 or 0.1%. The proportion of the Albanian population in comparison to others was different from one vilayet to another. In the Vilayet of Shkodra, the Albanians comprised 98.2%; in the Vilayet of Janina 59.1%; in the Vilayet of Manastir 54.1% and the Vilayet of Kosova, without the Sanjac of Shkup, 79.1% of the population.56

In 1912, a new epoch of social and political developments was noticed in the Balkans. The Albanian question, as a result of continuous uprisings against the Ottoman Empire, took the central part in those circumstances. It was hoped rightly that finally, all the endeavours, uprisings, battles and sacrifices of the Albanians would be crowned with their freedom and independence.
After the proclamation of the independence of Albania, more than half of the ethnic Albanian land was occupied by the Balkan allies. Only Serbia and Montenegro invaded a territory of 24,000 km2, and the territory occupied by Greece covered around 8,000 km2. The ethnic structure of these occupied territories was almost entirely Albanian.

Here we provide evidence of ethnic and religious structure of these regions, according to the census in 1905-1906.57

1. The Sanjac of Prishtina: 254,605 Albanians of Muslim religion; 110,310 Catholic and Orthodox Albanians, Serbs, Bulgarians and Romanies.
2. The Sanjac of Peja: 139,901 Muslim Albanians; 45,784 Catholic and Orthodox Albanians, and Serbs.
3. The Sanjac of Novi-Pazar: 27,980 Muslim Albanians and Turks; 19,795 Christian Albanians and Serbs.
4. The Sanjac of Shkup: 90,840 Muslim Albanians; 60,706 Catholic Albanians and Serbs.
5. The Sanjac of Prizren (including the districts of Tetova and Gostivar): 158,742 Muslim Albanians; 15,323 Catholic and Orthodox Albanians; 11,606 Serbs and 473 Romanies.
6. The Sanjac of Manastir: 457,994 Muslim Albanians and Turks; 264,008 Orthodox Albanians and Wallachs; 198,335 Bulgarians; 55,108 Greeks; 2,760 Romanies; 354 Catholic and Protestant Albanians.
7. The Vilayet of Janina: 227,484 Muslim Albanians; 213,281 Orthodox Albanians and Wallachs; 91,991 Greeks and 4,906 Jews.

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/chap1.htm

The important point is this: the historical nation of Albania was stripped of many of its best lands and cities, including Kosova. Possessed of these lands, it becomes an important regional player, one capable of counterbalancing Serbia.

The Serbs will get some land out of this deal. They won't get as much as they got historically.

The important point is this: the historical nation of Albania was stripped of many of its best lands and cities, including Kosova. Possessed of these lands, it becomes an important regional player, one capable of counterbalancing Serbia.
This is true. But it still remains the weakest and least developped nation of the Balkans.

Something about my Vlachs/Aromanians. They were not just illiterate sheperds, but also traders (the jobs are related, in a way: they both involve a lot of traveling and bargaining; it's easy to see how one could make the change from one to another).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscopole

This is true. But it still remains the weakest and least developped nation of the Balkans.Maybe, and maybe not. The fact that Serbia got possession of Skopje made a huge difference in Albania's economic development; it eliminated much of the value of Albania's seaboard, since those ports now led nowhere. With Skopje, Albania's seaports now become an alternate path to the Vardar valley and ultimately, Asia Minor.

Don't be too cocky. Those 150mm guns won't be as useful in the field as those Bulgarian quick-firing 75mm pieces, and don't forget the possibility of night attack...

Dude, who said anything about field combat, I'll be firing from within my fortress, they'll be deadly effective for any enemy trying to come within 2 miles, plus, the other smaller forts along the line will add support, LOL and I'm still trying to find a better weapon to buy for my army then the Krupps 77mm., but if I don't, I'll try to get some fench 75mm. either from france's army surplus markets, or off the "black market". (I know you'll have a smart remark about the black market, just a prediction). :rolleyes:

Dude, instead of making smart comments, why don't you f***ing mobilise! You're the only one who hasn't mobilised and you also don't post your moves in the RP thread.

Is it so hard to say something like: "The Turkish mobilisation started on -insert date - and will be over on -insert date. This many soldiers will be mobilised and they will be deployed in - insert place."

He probably hasn't mobilised because I haven't told him what he has.

Rough draft: Turkey had 43 divisions: 12 in Macedonia (2nd Army)


12 in Adrianople (1st Army)


9 in Armenia (3rd Army)


10 in Mesopotamia, Syria, Palestine, and Arabia (everything but Mesopotamia was in independent corps, so I'll guess that 6 of those divisions were in Mesopotamia [with 4th Army] and the other 4 were in the rest of the Middle East)Turkey was woefully short on rail lines, so pulling troops in from the rest of their empire took a long time. If Greece was willing, troops could come by sea, and that would be faster.

Turkish divisions - unlike anybody else's - were triangular (three regiments per division) rather than square (four regiments per division. This made them smaler but - in theory - more flexible.

There were approximately 115,000 troops in front of Adrianople and 175,000 in Macedonia.

That should be enough to get him started.

Of course, looking for a Turkish OOB would have been too difficult for TA. :rolleyes:

EDIT: after googling a few minutes, I've found the Turkish OOB for 1917, counting 44 divisions. It's the last post on the page.

http://www.1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=8464

OK, I propose that since we have all now declared our intentions, we accelerate the pace of operations to bring this war to a swift and yet realistic conclusion.

First, here is my assessment of each nations general orders: The Dual Monarchy:


5.Armee to make a demonstration along the Montenegrin border.


6.Armee to make a similar demonstration along the Serbian border.


XII.Korps, III.Korps, 8.KTD, and 5.HKTD, plus several independent brigades, all of 2.Armee, to:


Advance into and secure the Sanjak.


Occupy Kosova and Monastir vilayets (modern-day Kosovo and northwestern Macedonia, including the cities of Pristina, Skopje, and Bitola) and fortify them against potential attack.


Balance of 2.Armee (2 Corps) to form a strategic reserve.


Armeegruppe Kummel to secure Transylvanian frontier.


4.Armee to complete mobilisation in strategic reserve by mid April.


Albanian assistance staff (I need to give these guys a name!) to raise bashibazouk (Turkish for "irregular", lit. "one whose headdress is awry" ["wild man"]) companies as a first step toward creating a national army.


The Kingdom of Montenegro:


Await developments.


The Kingdom of Serbia:


1st Army to advance to Adrianople to support Bulgarian operations against the Turks.


All other forces to guard and prepare Serbian borders with the Dual Monarchy and Albania.


Kingdom of Greece:


Thessaly Army to advance into Salonika and claim the vilayet for Greece and then await further developments.


Epirus Army to support Thessaloniki Army by covering its left flank.


Greek Navy to deny Turkey access to the Aegean.


The Kingdom of Roumania:


Army Group South to march to Adrianople to support the Bulgarians against the Turks.


All other forces to guard and prepare the frontier against the Dual Monarchy.


The Kingdom of Bulgaria:


2nd Army to assault Adrianople.


1st Army to outflank Adrianople and break the lines of Tchatalja, isolating the outer fortress city from Constantinople.


3rd Army to advance into Macedonia when mobilised (no date given for this).


The Sublime Porte:


1st Edirne (Adrianople) Army to dig in and hold the frontier in front of Istanbul (Constantinople), including the Lines of Chatalja (Tchatalja) and Edirne itself.


2nd Uskub (Skopje) Army, less elements in Selanek (Salonika), to defend Albania under the supervision of the Dual Monarchy until Albania has raised its own army, then fall back (or travel by ship, if retreat is impossible) to Edirne.


Forces in Selanek to withdraw by foot or rail to Edirne to join defence of the capitol.If anyone believes that I have misrepresented their intentions, please say so. In my next post I propose to fast-forward to the end of April, when some of these plans may have actually been fulfilled.

I got attacked goddammit, I thought I was already mobilized after the attack, jeez, but ok, im officially mobilizing the United Armed forces of the Porte, there, and i'm still waiting permission from Greece to move my troops out of Macedonia, through greece, (plz get back to me on that :( ) and I'll also move some of my forces in the Middle east to support the defence of the line (from info from google, id say its about 80,000 of the expeditionary force, or parts of the 4th and 5th armies there). I'll make official movements on the OCC thread, sorry for your discomfort with my playing abilities. Oh yeah, and that was a very good assesment of our current state.

Check back here in a bit for my next post.

If these intentions are correct, then it should be easy to determine dates of arrival, accomplishment, battle, etc.

Then we can get on to the matter at hand (fighting, carving up the Balkans, etc.).

So here goes.

By the end of April...

The Kingdom of Greece:


Assuming that the Thessaly Army began rolling northward in early April, then the occupation of Thessaloniki should take place around April 22nd or 23rd. New Dracora should RP this event, complete with cheering crowds. The army is then assumed to be deployed within two days' march of the city unless New Dracora moves it, less any detachment he may send northward into the remainder of Salonika (which I strongly recommend.


Epirus Army may deploy, in whole or in part, to Western Salonika. New Dracora may decide how many troops from this army he wishes to send.


Crete and the Dodecanese are occupied by the Greeks no later than April 15th.


Greece may elect to demobilise some of his army if he thinks the danger is passed ... or not.


The Kingdom of Serbia:


1st Army needs to cover 424km (263 miles) to reach Edirne (Adrianople) by way of Sofia and Plovdiv. Assuming a rate of 25km (or about 15 miles) a day (allowing the guns and baggage to keep up), this is a trip of about 17 days for the lead units.

Of course, the need to stretch the column out over several miles means that you need to add between half a day and a full day for each division (or a full day for every 45,000 men), and you need to throw in a little bit of a delay for weather (not as much in traversing Bulgaria), so I would say 3½ weeks on the road.

If you want to send some people (no more than a division of foot and your cavalry division) ahead without their baggage or guns, they can probably get there just over a week ahead of everyone else. Of course, in a siege I have no idea how much good that will do, but if you're into gestures...

Therefore:


A "flying column" of advance Serbian forces can start to arrive at Adrianople by April 15th; they should all be in place and ready to take action by April 17th (although you may want to rest them a day or two).


The main body of 1st Army (including its baggage and guns) starts arriving on April 20th; the army then arrives in 25-30% blocks per day until April 24th, when they're all present (again, I'd insist on a day or two or rest before action, so basically you should figure you'll be at the siege a few days before the end of April).


The rest of Serbia's army will be mobilised by mid-month and may prepare defencive works to their hearts' content.


The Kingdom of Roumania


Army Group South needs to cover 493km (306 miles) to reach Edirne, which is about 20 days. I'm eyeballing Army Group South at 70,000-85,000 men (allowing some extras), so that's a two-day long column. Allowing some delay for weather, you're about 3½ weeks out as well (boy, did that work out nicely).

Therefore:


A "flying column" similar to the Serbian one (1 division of infantry and one of cavalry [or two brigades]) could get to Adrianople by the 19th or 20th of April; give them two days to get into place and a day to rest, and the can be ready for action by the 22nd or so.


The balance of the army will begin to arrive on the 27th and be fully encamped by the 29th; take the 30th off and consider yourself ready for action on May 1st.


Alternately, you can cut 5 days off the trip by joining 1st Army in its flanking manoeuvre (3 days for the "flying" column). That would result in your troops arriving between April 16th (for the "flying column") and April 25th (for the last guns and baggage of the main column).


The rest of Romania's army will be also mobilised by the first week in April and may also prepare defencive works to their hearts' content.


The Kingdom of Bulgaria:


All Bulgarian troops that are mobilised are now in action. You may elect to transfer 3rd Army to the eastern front and have it in position by the second week in April (7th to 10th, or so), except for the komitadjis (Bulgarian for "irregulars"), who won't budge from the Rhodope Mountains (they want to invade Macedonia, regardless of who is there: Greek, Turk, Albanian, Austrian or Hungarian, Serb, anyone).

You decide what you're holding back for other theatres.


The Sublime Porte


An unnamed Corps of 2 divisions (est, 20,000-30,000 men) from Selanek can arrive by foot in Edirne after a hike of 463km (288 miles). But there is a railway here that can probably move them east at a rate of about a regiment a day, which would mean maybe 8-10 days to fully entrain them and another 1½ days to get them there (typically, trains in this part of the world were lucky to do 25kph (15mph) and - in drier climates - then only with very long stops for water (these are steam locomotives, after all). Add a couple more days for men at posts in more remote parts of Selanek to hoof it to the nearest railhead, and I would imagine that it would be March 30th or 31st before these men began moving out.

On that basis, figure that a steady flow of troops from the west rolls in between April 1st and April 10th or 11th. The rest of your forces stay west in the Vardar valley, per our agreement (and will be covered in my next post).


I'll calculate the rate of reinforcement from Mesopotamia (as well as the call-up of reserves) later this evening (when I attempt to put together a Turkish OOB). BTW, I also agree that reservists were called to the colours (at least for 1st and 2nd Armies) when you were invaded back on March 28th, 1912. Reinforcement from the rest of your empire, of course, would have to be something that you order.Now, if anybody disagrees with this, pipe up. Otherwise, I think that Lachenburg and The Andromedan ought to bang it out for the month of April in a few quick posts and then either RP the arrival of reinforcements (in the case of the Porte) or give their Balkans allies a nice fat stage cue to enter, in order to begin the May slaughter. Greece, you can jump in (or not) at any time.

My own actions in Albania will follow in the next post.

(Obviously, this all goes out the window if somebody changes their minds and decides to attack Albania. Oh, and if Serbia and Montenegro are going to take up Roumania's call for negotiations, RP that so that we can get that going. I'll probably make a diplomatic move before then, anyway, but I just thought that you should know).

Check the weather for Edirne (Adrianople) in April before you RP. Not all wars are fought in wonderful weather.

That may be true in that the enemies get weakened without you losing much of anything, but by doing this NO practically forces himself into the war if I so much as fart without his permission.Then you know to ask before passing wind, right? :p

Works for me. Also the Balkan League needs to get together and talk about what to do afterTurkey gets its ass handed to it. (yeah that was cocky and vulgar so sue me)

Since Serbia doesn't get anything in battle, Army Group South will not advance beyond the border. I didn't say where the 3rd army is. If you want fog of war, you have it. :p

SB, look on thiis map. I've already posted it, but maybe you didn't analyse it well enough. Greece will get the vilayet of Salonika, Albania will be formed from the four vilayets to the west. What do you think you will get?

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1900.htm#%20here

By the end of April: The Dual Monarchy:


4.Armee will now be in reserve.


III.Korps (3 divisions) and XII.Korps (3 divisions), plus 8.KTD and 5.HKTD (2 cavalry divisions) will be in Kosova and northwest Macedonia by mid-to-late April (the first infantry elements begin arriving at Mitrovica on April 12th, at Pristina on April 14th, and at Skopje on April 20th; the last elements at in place and rested by April 27th, and the balance of the month is taken up preparing positions and settling in for the long haul).


Units is the Sanjak (equivalent to 2 divisions) continue to dig in and prepare to defend the area from attack.


Leaflet drops commence in Kosova on April 16th; Northern Monastir is leafleted in the last week of April.


Albanian bashibazouks in Kosova number 16,000 by the end of April (this is based on historical turnout rates). Training and discipline is poor, but morale is high.


Malësi mountaineers in Ishkodra number about 5,000, and are accompanied by Slovene and Croatian advisers. These units also now have Maxim guns (packed for mountain use rather than limbered).


In Ishkodra, Kosova, and the Sanjak patrols are going right up to the border, so Serbian and Montengrin incursions will be detected.


The 2nd (Vardar) Army of the Sublime Porte (under k.u.k. command):


VI and VII Corps (6 divisions and 1-2 cavalry brigades) are assembled and entrenched near Uskub (Skopje).


VIII Corps (3 divisions and 1 mountain brigade) is deployed in Ishkodra (Scutari) and the Prokletije mountains to the east, covering the Montengrin frontier; where appropriate, improved positions (defencive works) have been established).


3rd Rifle Brigade (an independent unit) is deployed near Monastir (Bitola).


Fortress garrisons at Ishkodra (Scutari), Monastir (Bitola), and Yanya (Ioánnina) are mobilised and on alert, and these fortresses have been readied for war.Any major events that occur during April may modify these results.

Works for me. Also the Balkan League needs to get together and talk about what to do afterTurkey gets its ass handed to it. (yeah that was cocky and vulgar so sue me)Lets be realistic.

Greece has little to gain and a lot to lose from joining you and Roumania in an invasion of Albania.

For starters, I have not yet decided how far to support Greek claims to territories like Cyprus or the Aegean Islands (let alone other, more ambitious goals). If Greek backstabs me, it ends, and ends painfully: I can reduce the entire Greek fleet to scrap metal in less than a week, and then I'll start ferrying Turkish (or Italian) troops to Crete, the Dodecanese, etc.

Second, Italy wants an strong and independent Albania as much as I do. No, they may not be happy with my possession of the Tirol or Trieste, but Greek territory can buy a lot of solace.

And for what? I've already told Athens that I'll resolve his border disputes with Albania in his favour. Historically, Albania was artifically pushed south to suit Slavic ambitions. Guess what I'm doing? I'm moving it back where it belongs.

Which is the other side of this game: just as Greece has a lot to lose real fast, it stands to gain much by staying with me, and at little cost.

So whatever you do, you will need to do without Greece.

As for Bulgaria, Roumania's decision not to back their seige of Edirne (Adrianople) speaks volumes. If you don't support Bulgaria, why should Bulgaria support you?

I still have the Macedonian card to play, as well. Someone is going to inherit those non-Albanian territories in Macedonia, and that could very well be Greece, or else an autonomous Macedonia could be established. Or it could be Serbia. Attack me, and I'll guarantee that it's not Serbia that gets those lands, and either the Greeks, Bulgarians, or Macedonians will thank me for my patronage.

So right now your vaunted "Balkan League" has collapsed into Serbia, Montenegro, and Roumania. Without Russian help, you will be defeated; if Russia intervenes, then Germany must, too. That's not a winning situation for Russia, even if France decides to jump into the fray.

(And since France is widely hated in Europe, any French intervention will probably bring more enemies to your alliance than friends. Ouch.)

Keep in mind also that - unlike 1914 - I do no need to invade Serbia to win this war: you will be the ones who start it (which will be of tremendous political help to me) and we will be the ones who are defending allied soil. That means you will need to break my trench lines. Double ouch.

Your best option is to back down and negotiate. This is not your day.

SB, look on thiis map. I've already posted it, but maybe you didn't analyse it well enough. Greece will get the vilayet of Salonika, Albania will be formed from the four vilayets to the west. What do you think you will get?If he negotiates, he'll get something (I have to look at the census data and some maps).

If he attacks me, he'll get nothing at all - except maybe wiped out.

So I have a better idea: why can't you two just be happy with the borders you have and concentrate on peaceful economic, scientific, and cultural development. Or is that too boring?

SB can argue about the "justice" of his position all he wants, and claim that I can cede large chunks of land to irredentists without committing suicide, and even believe it. I don't care. If it wasn't for his aggressive ambitions against me (regardless of whether they are "justified" or not), I wouldn't be taking action to stuff him in a box and keep him there. Action, reaction: its the simple physics of realpolitik.

He can moan about the "Urge to the East" (Drang nach Osten)all he wants. I sure as heck don't want his soil, so who's the real aggressor here?

There is simply not going to be any "Yugoslavia" here - or at least none under his control - and SB needs to come to grips with that. No "ifs", "ands", or "buts".

Just a question: you said IC that ethnicity is not a basis for creating states. Now you're doing exactly that. Isn't this a bit... inconsistent? :p

Just a question: you said IC that ethnicity is not a basis for creating states. Now you're doing exactly that. Isn't this a bit... inconsistent? :pEthnicity is not a legitimate basis for creating states, but practically speaking an Albania that encompasses Greeks, Macedonians, Bulgarians, and Serbs isn't going to survive.

Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.

Ethnicity is not a legitimate basis for creating states, but practically speaking an Albania that encompasses Greeks, Macedonians, Bulgarians, and Serbs isn't going to survive.
Of course, a state encompassing Italians, Slovenes, Croatians, Serbians, Hungarians, Romanians, Slovakians, Czechs, Poles, Ucrainians and Germans is going to survive. :p

Just teasing you.

Of course, a state encompassing Italians, Slovenes, Croatians, Serbians, Hungarians, Romanians, Slovakians, Czechs, Poles, Ucrainians and Germans is going to survive. :p

Just teasing you.Absolutely! After all, a nation with all of those peoples living within its borders, plus Frenchmen, Irishmen, Scotsmen, Englishmen, Russians, Poles, Swedes, Finns, Norwegians, Greeks, Turks, Arabs, Iranians, Indians, Pakistanis, Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese, Nigerians, African "Freedmen", Mexicans, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Haitians, Panamanians, Polynesians, Eskimos, and 300 American Indian tribes (to name just a few) has survived for over a century in that condition.

It's called "America". :p

(BTW, most immigrants to America in the quarter-century before our present thread date came from the Dual Monarchy.)

EDIT: Remember earlier on in the main RP thread when I said that "a famous American poet" has stated that "America proves that all Europeans can live together in peace?" (loose quote)

I cheated, of course, because in 1910 they were not at peace - race riots in St. Louis, mass deportations of Japanese and Indians, KKK rallies against immigrants from the Dual Monarchy (Catholics and Slavs).

The poet was President Clinton's poet laureate, Maya Angelou, and the full quote is a breathtaking statement of the minority American liberal view:

"America proves that all Europeans can live together in peace; it is now America's destiny to prove that all the people of the world can live together in peace." (again, a loose quote)

Hey, of course I believe this. I'm an American liberal. If it's not true, America might as well cease to exist, because we are destined to self-annihilation.

Semi-IC: What are you going to say in a few years when I have a large Chinese immigrant community living in Vienna and Budapest?!?

(BTW, most immigrants to America in the quarter-century before our present thread date came from the Dual Monarchy.)
I wonder why? :p

The situation between America and A-U is completely different. Since I'm really tired, I won't point the diffrences right now. Bye.

Edit: The obvious mistakes are caused by my being so tired. One more reson i should go to sleep.

I wonder why? :p

The situation between America and A-U is completely different. Since I'm really tired, I won't point the diffrences right now. Bye.

Edit: The obvious mistakes are caused by my being so tired. One more reson i should go to sleep.Those differences will be addressed...

Those differences will be addressed...
Now.

Throughout the history, people have treated the Foreigners - with capital F - with mistrust and even aggresion. In time, the criteria defining a Foreigner have changed. In the prehistory, the question to be asked was: is he from my tribe? If he was, he was my best friend, if he was not, I could do anything to him. 2000 years ago, in the Roman Empire, people either belonged to a "civilised culture" (Greek or Roman) or were "Barbarians". In the Medieval period, religion was the most important dividing line between people. Nowadays, it's ethnicity.

The USA and the Dual Monarchy are both states created through conquest, encompassing a large number of nationalities. After that, the similarities stop. The United States have managed to - almost - exterminate the subjected people, replacing them with immigrants. The Habsburg Empire brought German immigrants in the newly conquered teritories, but without eliminating the old inhabitants. Furthermore, the people going to America were the most willing to live in a different environement, leaving only the most "stubborn" behind. What the USA showed is that it's possible to assimilate large numbers of people belonging to different religions, races and nationality, as long as they are not concentrated in a particulat region, they are not native to that region and are offered economic incentives - such as a higher standard of living - for abandoning their old cultures.

The Dual Monarchy could not offer the same incentives to its various people. For one thing, these people were the natives there and it's only natural not to show a great ammount of love to your conqueror. As colonists, the people feel gratefull to the state welcoming them. The same people would only feel hatred to a state conquering them. The first simptom of this situation was the very creation of the Dual Monarchy in 1867.

Language is a major dividing factor. In America, a family of Italians might have as next door neighbours a family of Poles. What language will they use to comunicate? English. In the Dual Monarchy, the different nations lived in separate teritories. Even when they lived in the same village, town or city, they tended to group in different neighbourhoods. In America, there might exist immigrant neighbourhoods, but even there the people belonging to different nationalities were mixed together. These conditions favoured a larger degree of assimilation and toleration than in Europe. After all, you are less likely to shoot your next door neighbour, even if he speaks funny and doesn't go to the same church as you.

The lack of equal chances in life was another factor that created frictions between the various nations of your empire. I have a book called "The Hungarians", by Paul Lendvai and I have reread it recently, partly because I like history and partly to document for this RP. Even in 1910, about 90% of the public officials in Hungary were Hungarians, although Hungarians represented only half of the total population. I don't know the exact numbers for the Austrian half of the empire, but I don't think there were many Ucrainians at the top.

All the factors above contribute to a lesser degree of stability and integration in the Dual Monarchy - and in all the states built on a similar basis. What's worse, most of these factors - the natural separation of the nationalities and the distrust towards a conquering power, for example - cannot be influenced by the central governement. It can only adress the issues of discrimination and insure an equal start in life to all its citizens, regardless of their nationality. In my oppinion, this could at best make the "minorities" unaggresive towards the central governement. In time, a common identity could also be forged, based on the pride of belonging to a great empire and all that propaganda stuff.

However, as long as your state has a half which is actually assimilating the ruling class of the other half (600 000 Germans declared as Hungarians between 1867 and 1914; in 1906/1907, the Germans had no secondary schools in Germany) and is also discriminating the rest (around 1870, the voting rights were restricted in Hungary to the richest 5% of the population, to insure that only Hungarians entered th Parliament - the richest people were Hungarians), the prospects for such an integration are dim. You could turn the Dual Monarchy into a viable state, but it would take a compehensive internal reform and the dissolution of the Hungarian state as it is now.

A few additions.

I cheated, of course, because in 1910 they were not at peace - race riots in St. Louis, mass deportations of Japanese and Indians, KKK rallies against immigrants from the Dual Monarchy (Catholics and Slavs).
After WWI, immigration to the US dropped sharply. This gave you a breather to assimilate the various nationalities into the American nation.

"America proves that all Europeans can live together in peace; it is now America's destiny to prove that all the people of the world can live together in peace." (again, a loose quote)
America only proves that you can assimilate the Europeans, if the conditions are good (I'm repeating myself, I know). I'm ready to accept that nowadays, the Europeans can live in peace and together even if they preserve their nationalities. In fact, I believe we can exactly because nobody's trying to assimilate anybody (in most of Europe, anyway). 100 years ago, things were different. The ruling nation of a country was always pursuing a policy of assimilation.

To get specific, the best bet for k.u.k would be to create a federal monarchy (but not as federal as Hungary is from Austria) with German as the official language and 'regional' official languages in addition to German. For example: in Bohemia, the official languages would be German and Czech; in Slovakia, German and Slovak; in Transylvania, German and Romanian etc. The resulting state would be a great deal more united than it is now - there are even border customs between Hungary and Cisleithania, for God's sake! Economically, the nation would become more integrated (because of the dissapeareance of the border customs, for example); the variuos nationalities of the empire would lose their beligerance. There would be only one governement, not two, like now, resulting in a more coherent policy.

Of course, you'd have to tell it to the Hungarians first and might not like it. I have a feeling they would stronly oppose any such reform, because it would lead to them losing their privileged status.

Hey, of course I believe this. I'm an American liberal. If it's not true, America might as well cease to exist, because we are destined to self-annihilation.
The different people and races have already been integrated. You have an American nation, now, not 50 different European nations living side by side. So you're safe. :p

Semi-IC: What are you going to say in a few years when I have a large Chinese immigrant community living in Vienna and Budapest?!?
I'm not going to say anything. Your own people might have something to say. If Hitler found enough supporters to move against the Jews, who were living in that region for hundreads of years and look European, think what will he do now.

Trust me, I'm quite aware of the way things worked in the "Kingdom of St. Stephen" at this time. Whether the Hungarian nobles like it or not, things will change. If you read up on the relationship between Franz Ferdinand and the Hungarians, it should not be hard to figure out how they will change.

The Serbs chose to murder Franz Ferdinand for a reason: they saw his likely policies as a threat to their irredentist dreams.

BTW, here's a better map (http://foreignaffairs.tripod.com/armillotta/vilajetet.html) of Albania (or "Western Rumelia"), if you prefer. It should make the current Greek, Turkish, and Albanian borders a little bit clearer.

Thanks. It's certainly clearer than the map I've posted.

The fight at Adrianople and the Chatalja Lines took about three or four months, not counting the ceasefire in the middle. I figure that Lachenburg and The Andromedan can fight until the end of July or maybe August, and call that a war.

I only skipped ahead to May to try and get things moving.

Boghimia, do you mean to withhold your assistance from Bulgaria and let him fight alone against the Porte?

Slavic Byzantium, if Boghimia doesn't march on Adrianople, will you? And if you don't march, will you accept my offer to demobilise and negotiate?

New Dracora, will Greece accept my offer to negotiate? And will you sit back and let Bulgaria fight the Porte alone? Also, will you close the Aegean to the Porte or permit it to bring troops to Constantinople by sea?

Lachenburg, now that Greece has claimed Salonika and Kosova has been given to Albania (which I am committed to defend), will 3rd Army still march on Skopje (which would set the Dual Monarchy at war with Bulgaria), will it attack Greece, or will it simple commit all its resources to defeating the Porte in front of Constantinople?

Narodna Odbrana. can you help me find a french or english tactician and artillery expert to help with the modernization of my ground forces, the thing is, I need better faster cannons and artillery.

The Sublime Porte: (est. 340,000-500,000 men)

Mobilisation Method: Reserve System (in theory)

Organisation:

Getting information on the armies of the Porte in 1912 is difficult. This is because the Young Turks began a military reorganisation effort in 1908 that never really got off the ground, and then resumed that effort in 1913 after being defeated in the First Balkan War. The result is that it is often difficult to tell what changes were made before 1912 as opposed to being made after 1913. Add to this the fact that - in real life - the First Balkan War began right as the Italo-Turkish War of 1911-12 was ending, and its not surprising that no one can really agree on the state of the Turkish army in 1912.

Other than to say that it was bad, that is.

It should be better here. Without the defeat by Italy in 1911-12, the Porte's forces should be in somewhat better shape. Still, the organisation that existed on paper was likely not altogether real.

This is what can be said about the Osmanli army in general:

There were four field armies: 1st Army (Adrianople) - 12 divisions (in 4 corps)


2nd Army (Macedonia/Western Rumelia) - 12 divisions (in 4 corps)


3rd Army (Armenia) - 9(?) divisions (in 3[?] corps)


4th Army (Mesopotamia) - 6(?) divisions (in 2[?] corps)


Independent Forces (Syria, Palestine, the Hajiz, etc.) - 4(?) divisions (in 1[?] corps, plus 1[?] independent division)Overall, there appear to have been 43 divisions in the Osmanli establishment on the eve of the war.

In theory, Osmanli forces were organised in triangular fashion: 1 Corps, of


3 Divisions, each of


3 Infantry Regiments, each of


3 Infantry Battalions, each of


4 Infantry Companies, each of


~250 men


1 Machine-Gun Section, of


4 machine guns


1 Artillery Regiment


1 Cavalry Brigade


1 Heavy Artillery RegimentA full strength Turkish division was considerably smaller than its Balkan counterparts, at about 10,000 men (in contrast, Balkan divisions often ran 22,000 to 28,000 men), so a fair fight would be on in which a Turkish corps might be pitted against one or two Balkan divisions (and then only if the Turks were defending prepared positions).

The German government had been helping the Turks reorganise their army for a number of years. As a consequence, in theory the Turks had in place a reserve system. In practise, the system was a shambles due to the continuous rebellions and wars that had plagued the Porte since 1908. Men were supposed to serve three years, but in fact troops could not be discharged once mobilised without permission of the Sultan - who was often loath to grant it - and so some men served seven or eight years, which completely disrupted the reserve system (men weren't passing into the reserves in an orderly way). Furthermore, evasion of military service was common.

Men who were currently in harness were called Nimzamye. As mentioned above, these men were in theory obligated to serve three years if infantry and four years if members of a more technical branch (artillery, engineers, etc.). In theory there were 90,000 men available for military service in each age class, and so the peacetime army should have had a strength of about 300,000 men with another 10,000 or so officers. The next 15 classes (theoretically, 1,350,000 men) formed the reserve, or Redif; the last seven classes (theoretically over 600,000 men) were the territorial militia, or Mustahfiz. Any resemblance to the systems used in countries like Bulgaria and Serbia is not coincidence - this is how the so-called "Prussian reserve system" worked. In the event of a war, a nation had its active duty forces (here, the Nimzamye) as well as any paramilitary police or border guards (called Jendarma by the Porte, and equal to if not greater than the Nimzamye in fighting capability) to defend against a surprise attack or deal with an immediate danger while the reserves (here, the Redif) were called up. The last class of men (here, the Mustahfiz) were tasked with defending the rear area (lines of communications, railways, depots, occupied enemy territory, etc.) and were not expected to fight in the front lines.

Due to the far-flung nature of the Osmanli empire, the Porte handled the Redif a little differently than other European nations: they were called to the colours in cities and towns near where they lived, organised into divisions, and then sent to the battlefront. These ad hoc organisations lacked a cohesive command structure and adequate services; they also tended to lack equipment. In defence they proved adequate if uninspired, but there was a clear difference between the quality of Redif and Nimzamye formations. Some sources I have seen suggested that eight or nine Redif divisions had already joined 1st Army by the time the fighting started, and that these units were unwisely sent straight up to the Bulgarian border, where they were quickly torn to shreds.

The cavalry appears to have been organised into brigades. There were also some independent mountain and rifle brigades (probably Jandarma).

Finally, the Turks had fortress garrisons (in addition to their regular establishment) in their big citadels. There was a corps-sized force (58,000[?] men) at Edirne (Adrianople); there were smaller forces at Ishokdra (Shkodër), Uskub (Skopje), Monastir (Bitola), and Yanya (Ionánna). I don't have information on the size of these garrisons other than the one at Ishkodra (26,000).

Comments: The Turks were woefully short of machine guns; they were even short of modern magazine rifles in some units, having to make do with breech loading rifles or even muskets in some formations. This would have been truer of the reserves than the front-line forces.


Turkish artillery was old and slow; they had bigger guns than the Bulgarians, but most were older and therefore less potent. They were certainly far slower. Ammunition was a serious problem for the Turks at all levels, but especially the artillery. There are heartbreaking stories of how Turkish gunners facing the Bulgarians in the early border battles waited patiently for more ammo up until they were overrun.


Clearly, the armies of the Porte lacked the training, officer skill, services, or discipline to conduct mobile operations against their enemies in 1912-13. There are notable exceptions. Djavid Pasha's corps escaped the destruction of the 2nd Army at Koumonovo and actually defeated the Serbs and Greeks in a couple of sharp fights in southern Monastir before fighting its way into the mountain fortress of Yanya (Ionánna), where it was finally forced to surrender after a lengthy siege. In similar fashion, the final assault from the Çhatalja lines in 1913 (during the Second Balkan War) - the one that retook Edirne (Adrianople) was conducted with some skill (though not brilliance). The same thing would manifest itself in the Great War and the fighting that followed, as Turkey struggled for its very existence: under good leadership (which was rare), the Turks could fight well; lacking such leadership, they were better off sticking to trench warfare.


The Porte's officers, German-trained, tried to beat the Balkan powers the way the Germans would - with lighting attacks. They failed miserably. Not only that, but when they were forced into retreat, their supply services collapsed. More than one author has noted that the "Prussian" system of organisation does not handle retreat gracefully, and used this as an explanation of the mess than the Turks found themselves in. Given the disarray with which the Germans fell back after the Second Marne, that seems plausible, although I would be at a loss to say what it might be about the "Prussian" system that did this.


As with Bulgaria, the breakdown of the supply system resulted in disease. Cholera swept the ranks of the Turkish army and killed more men than the Porte's enemies.


This was the first war in which barbed wire was extensively used in defencive works, and the Turks were the ones who used it. One thing the Turks could do well was dig in and prepare strong defences.


In addition to the fortress of Adrianople, the Porte had prepared the Çhatalja lines in front of Istanbul (Constantinople) well in advance of the war. 25km from the city, these lines ran across the peninsula where Istanbul was located. They were 40km long.


Turkish divisions and corps were numbered (as were regiments). The corps and division numbers matched (such that I Corps was comprised of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Divisions, II Corps of 4th, 5th, and 6th Divisions, etc.). Regiments were also numbered, but the numbers didn't (always) match as well. Since the only data I have at that level is from the Great War, that could be due to the transfer of units around to rebuild all the divisions shattered in the Balkan Wars.


The Porte had only 7,000km of rail lines in the entire empire. By way of comparison, the Dual Monarchy added 30,000km just between 1900 and 1910. While a rail line to Baghdad was under construction in 1912, it was not finished (I don't believe it even ran into present-day Iraq). As mentioned elsewhere, Turkish railroads were slow with long stops.Proposed 1st Army OOB: I Corps


1st Division (1st, 2nd, and 3rd Regiments)


2nd Division (4th, 5th, and 6th Regiments)


3rd Division (7th, 8th, and 9th Regiments)


Corps Troops (1st Cavalry Brigade, 1st Artillery Regiment)


II Corps


4th Division (10th, 11th, and 12th Regiments)


5th Division (13th, 14th, and 15th Regiments)


6th Division (16th, 17th, and 18th Regiments)


Corps Troops (2nd Cavalry Brigade, 2nd Artillery Regiment)


III Corps


7th Division (19th, 20th, and 21st Regiments)


9th Division (25th, 26th, and 27th Regiments)


19th Division (57th, 72nd, and 77th Regiments)


Corps Troops (3rd Cavalry Brigade, 3rd Artillery Regiment)


IV Corps (transferred from Selanek [Salonika])


8th Division (22nd, 23rd, and 24th Regiments)


10th Division (28th, 29th, and 30th Regiments)


11th Division (31st, 32nd, and 33rd Regiments)


Corps Troops (4th Cavalry Brigade, 4th Artillery Regiment)


Army Troops (Guards Cavalry Brigade, 1st Engineer Brigade)


Edirne Fortress Troops (6 Infantry Regiments, 5 Fortress Artillery Regiments, 2 Engineer Battalions, 5 Machine-Gun Companies, 1 Sapper/Signal Company, 5 Squadrons of Cavalry minimum


Additional Forces (3 Reserve [Redif] Divisions)


Reinforcements - 1 Reserve [Redif] Division per weekThese are suggested forces, of course.

Narodna Odbrana. can you help me find a french or english tactician and artillery expert to help with the modernization of my ground forces, the thing is, I need better faster cannons and artillery.I'll see what I can do to help.

For now: Read up on period tactics and on the Balkan Wars in particular (on the web).


Look at a map and try to find a natural defence line that runs through Adrianople. Deploy your troops along that line, keeping your right flank stronger than your left.


Leave troops at Çhatalja (the base of the peninsula where Istanbul is located. Keep them dug in, and start building up ammunition there.


Leave troops at the base of the peninsula where Galipoli sits and start laying trench works there as a fall-back position for your left wing.


Lay in supplies in Edirne (Adrianople) against a long siege.


Avoid attacks except to hold your line.


Do not leave the rest of your empire exposed.


Promote officers who are successful. Try to get a quality officer corps. This will take time, so be patient.


Try to improve the quality of your reserve (Redif) divisions through training and garrison duty.


Wait for a falling out among your enemies.

Boghimia, do you mean to withhold your assistance from Bulgaria and let him fight alone against the Porte?
Yes.

Lets be realistic.

Greece has little to gain and a lot to lose from joining you and Roumania in an invasion of Albania.

For starters, I have not yet decided how far to support Greek claims to territories like Cyprus or the Aegean Islands (let alone other, more ambitious goals). If Greek backstabs me, it ends, and ends painfully: I can reduce the entire Greek fleet to scrap metal in less than a week, and then I'll start ferrying Turkish (or Italian) troops to Crete, the Dodecanese, etc.

Second, Italy wants an strong and independent Albania as much as I do. No, they may not be happy with my possession of the Tirol or Trieste, but Greek territory can buy a lot of solace.

And for what? I've already told Athens that I'll resolve his border disputes with Albania in his favour. Historically, Albania was artifically pushed south to suit Slavic ambitions. Guess what I'm doing? I'm moving it back where it belongs.

Which is the other side of this game: just as Greece has a lot to lose real fast, it stands to gain much by staying with me, and at little cost.

So whatever you do, you will need to do without Greece.

As for Bulgaria, Roumania's decision not to back their seige of Edirne (Adrianople) speaks volumes. If you don't support Bulgaria, why should Bulgaria support you?

I still have the Macedonian card to play, as well. Someone is going to inherit those non-Albanian territories in Macedonia, and that could very well be Greece, or else an autonomous Macedonia could be established. Or it could be Serbia. Attack me, and I'll guarantee that it's not Serbia that gets those lands, and either the Greeks, Bulgarians, or Macedonians will thank me for my patronage.

So right now your vaunted "Balkan League" has collapsed into Serbia, Montenegro, and Roumania. Without Russian help, you will be defeated; if Russia intervenes, then Germany must, too. That's not a winning situation for Russia, even if France decides to jump into the fray.

(And since France is widely hated in Europe, any French intervention will probably bring more enemies to your alliance than friends. Ouch.)

Keep in mind also that - unlike 1914 - I do no need to invade Serbia to win this war: you will be the ones who start it (which will be of tremendous political help to me) and we will be the ones who are defending allied soil. That means you will need to break my trench lines. Double ouch.

Your best option is to back down and negotiate. This is not your day.

Indeed, Greece has virtually nothing to gain by invading Albania and hence will not do so, we will expect to be given the territories that were promised to us of course, but I'm really not going to do much about it if these claims are denied to Greece other than throw a hissy fit. :p

New Dracora, will Greece accept my offer to negotiate? And will you sit back and let Bulgaria fight the Porte alone? Also, will you close the Aegean to the Porte or permit it to bring troops to Constantinople by sea?

Greece will accept to offer of negotiations. Also for now, Greece will not enter into the war with the Porte instead the time will be spent to properly consolidate our position in Salonika and the Aegean. We will however, deny Turkish access to the Aegean.

Greece will accept to offer of negotiations. Also for now, Greece will not enter into the war with the Porte instead the time will be spent to properly consolidate our position in Salonika and the Aegean. We will however, deny Turkish access to the Aegean.Wonderful.

Negotiations will begin in July 1912 (that's about how long it will take for the Albanian government to get organised, and I would expect them to be finished by the end of September or October (it'll be random, but I'll be quietly leaning on the Albanians to settle).

I've almost got the new border worked out (better than Greece actually got, historically - although the Albanians may want to make some counterclaims in along the northwestern edges of Salonika vilayet (which you may not want to keep anyway, because there are very few Greeks living in those parts).

Greece will accept to offer of negotiations. Also for now, Greece will not enter into the war with the Porte instead the time will be spent to properly consolidate our position in Salonika and the Aegean. We will however, deny Turkish access to the Aegean.

Don't worry man, I will not interfere with any of your land, including te Agean, I would like to stress though, my sencere promise of neutrality toward greece.

Ok, the ammo problem is being soved with my firther industrialzation of Ankara, right now, I will only be able to make ammo for my troops, because bigger machines are not currently avaiable in the porte, but a steady flow of ammo from my factories should help.

Also, I had already said that I had purchased over 500,000 mauser rifles and the caliber bullet and magazine designs from Germany. So I am at an advantage compared to the real Ottoman Empire.

I already have Howitzer artillery on the hills overlooking Adrianople, that should give me an advantage against a charging army, as far as natural defenses in front of the city, I can't find any.

As far as the defense goes, I'm still using the fire-trap method, but behind the fire, I have barbed wire, then a seris of ditches and treches with strategically placed wire. Behind that, I have dug in troops, then troops and Krupps 79mm cannons on the walls and inside.

I've already posted that citizens have finished evacuation of the city, and that supplies have been readied for a seige.

Gallpoli has been modified for a seige too, the defnsive line starts there, trust me that there are plenty of redoubts and blockhoue forts for my troops to fall back into.

I will start the officer training corps with training officers for the reserves.

I still need to buy more machine guns, and I'm working on a primitive submachine gun design given to us by the germans. I dont think it will be in service until after the war is over, (probably 1915).

In my plane designs, I;m coming along quickly with the help of Italian designers. I should have a prototype by December 1912

I still need to get french defense advisors, (which I will post on the RP thread)

Not many have that much to gain if things go wrong wtih invading Albania. However, it all dependsw on what will bewcome Albania. As far as I'm concerned it's Turkish territory with the exception of the proclaimed territories of Albania.

The Bagsburg navy is supposed to be a costal defence force, now, I don't know exactly what that encompasses but generally it's not a fleet capable of laying waste to everything and anything in its path.

Greek territory can. I won't deny that. That is one of the worse things that can happen, besides, I haven't really had much intention of attacking the k.u.k...or should I say none to begin with.

Let's go with the ambitions I'm placing in favour of history, Kosovo and a land link with Serbia and Montenegreo (from this balkan war) and ultimately bosnia and hercegovia, and croatia-slavonia. I couldn't care less about a sovereign Albania, if that's what you will actually make that will not end up being a protectorate or puppet of the Dual Monarchy.

Greece can stand to gian much and lose much in any situation. I'm just curious why you're assuming I want to attack you NO when I say the Balkan league needs to get together, we are allies and we need to work out our long term goals and plans. That invovles getting together and since GReece has not stated it wants to leave the Balkan League (and no, you buying GReece's friendship does not mean Greece automatically tells its other allies to bugger off, it means Greece potentially has another ally)

So whatever I intend to do, I can do with Greece if it doesn't involve committing suicide as the alliance still stands as far as I'm concerned in the RP. Germany must only intervene if the Dual Monarchy is invaded and nothing more. Especially if the Kaiser is anything like he was historically and wants to avoid war. Russia and France used political influence to avert war, that's all I ever asked for from them. I don't want Russian military intervention because that just might mean full Russian influence over Serbia.

Not a winning situation for Russia? Let's take a look at this handy encyclopedia here and see who exactly was the winner when it came to the allies verses the central powers...oh look...Russia!(well Russia capitulated due to civil war but the winners do not include Germany and Dual Monarchy)

France may have been hated, but once again, who says I'm asking for military intervention? Where's the ouch here?

You never had to invade Serbia in 1914 to win any war, becuase there would have bene no war if the Dual Monarchy had no started it over an extremeist group that Serbia had zero control over. I do not intend to start any wars with the Dual Monarchy. Very unecessary when self determination and lots of peaceful reforms could conceivably do the same thing without losing the better part of a generation of young men.

Ah yes, the vaunted trench lines that were broken with Serbia perceding to invade actual Habsburg territory (not B-H or C-S which I know was Habsburg territory with it being annexed) until the German and Bulgarian(those double fronts and backstabbing things really do hurt) assisted counterattacks forced the Serb and Montenegren armies to withdraw through Albania (with Albania's permission) to be evacuated by French ships. They were then brought back into Macedonia in 1916 and scored a series of victories against Habsburg forces and fought its way to Zagreb before the signing of the Armistice. This "double ouch" you speak of...I do not see it.

Unfortunately, I want to avoid war if at all possible so negotiation just might be the only viable route I currently have.

--------

If I attack I stand to gain something, everything, or lose something, or everything. No on can really tell. You know why I'm not happy; it doesn't meet the goal of Yugoslavism.

Well ceding land Joseph annexed which has been argued was only to make up for losing territory to the Italians doesn't give your allies legitimate reasons to demand territory from fellow allies. The alliance would prevent that. They agreed to the alliance so it means they're satisfied with current borders.

I like the way you describe my "ambitions" as being "aggressive." They involved invading the territory of an enemy of an ally. Explain to me how this is so horrible! Regarldess of what you'd be doing, you're doing what the Dual Monarchy did only claiming for different reasons...in fact they are quite similar...big bad Serbia of 4 million people is such a threat against the tiny major power of Europe with 55 million people. It is of course conceivable that should a Yugoslavia become reality that it could become quite the thorn in the side of the Dual Monarchy. But as NO said, action. reaction. Without any hostile actions from the Habsburg, Yugoslavia has no need to react as that thorn. Hell, what keeps an alliance from being forged?

You can claim you don't want my soil, but the Drang noch Osten was reality, Bosnia-Hercegovina was annexed because the Dual Monarchy wanted to expand, but because of the wars that it lost vs France and Italy, Germany being to the north, and Russia to the east...the only place left is the Balkans. Maybe you No do not want my land, but that's your personal belief, as far as the countries themselves are concerned, the past events ( which was still very recent at the time so unless you tell the Kaiser to back off from the policy of the Drang noch Osten and decide to throw it out, as far as anyone is concerned, you are still aggressively following through with it since we started this RP after the idea was conceived) and Drang noch Osten says otherwise.

What have you done thus far? Declared if I assist my allies by attacking Turkey where they border me you declare war on me, you place your soldiers in said areas, you create Albania so I am landlocked from the Adriatic. I'm being told no Slavs will unite ever, not under my control...then whose control? The Habsburg? The Russians? Serbia is the largest of the Yugoslav (Southern Slav) territories, Montenegro is assumed to be a puppet of Serbia, and NO has ownership over all of the territories minus Kosovo that would allow for a Yugoslavia. It's me(if not me specifically, I'd be content to leave the RP with the formation of a Yugoslavia that was not just a Greater Serbia so Serbia wouldn't lead it and it would be the discretion of the other RP'ers if I should still command this Yugoslavia or if someone else should), Russia, or Dual Monarchy. Russia wants Greater Serbia, Habsburg wants protectorate and eventual puppet...and I want to have the Yugoslavs live without persecution, which by the way you have announced nothing to put a stop to. I have every reason to believe the third crown in the triple crown will become the stolen Slavic lands. So who's the biggest threat to stability here? Russia? They would never send in soldiers because that would risk a world war, Turkey? They are already under attack due to Bulgaria's beligerent(mispelt) actions(which would logically mean they are more aggressive than I am as I wasn't even mobilized until my ally went to war with someone causing me to follow through on my alliance and mobilise for a strike against that enemy) Italy? They have no claims and only did post-1918 because of what was promised during ww1(which hasn't happened yet in this rp) but never received. That leaves you NO. You are the causing effect of 90% of the instability in the Balkans. After the second Balkan war things remained tense with the Balkan league vs the Dual Monarchy, but war had been averted and things were cooling down. Serbia was far too busy attempting to deal with its new territories and had the bare minimum of border guards along the Serb-Habsburg border. You declared war on Serbia because of an extremist group(your citizens) from your lands (Bosnia Hercegovina) killed your heir(Franz Ferdinand) to the throne.

Here's a question...what if say we do go to war...what of the normal RP? t will have to be fully adjusted. Say assuming we went with NO's proposition, Serbia just steamrolls all of the Habsburg. Say assuming nothing happens. This should have happened alongside the main thread because too many things can happen to too many nations that could cause many things in the main thread to becoem null and void.

"The Serbs chose to murder Franz Ferdinand for a reason: they saw his likely policies as a threat to their irredentist dreams."

The Serbs did not choose to murder Franz Ferdinand. Black Hand of Bosnia and Hercegovina decided to murder Franz. Do not confuse the two unless you are in RP and then can go with that as propaganda...but in ooc it was Bosnian extremists. He was an ethnic Serb, but politically speaking he was a Turk and then an Austro-Hungarian.


Just something to add with the Habsburg positons in terms of politics with the Balkans.

"At this time, the Ottoman Empire, which had once controlled much of southeastern Europe and still controlled the Straits of Bosporus at Constantinople (present-day İstanbul), was in its final stages of disintegration. In 1908 Austria-Hungary took the Ottoman possessions it wanted when it annexed the Balkan states of Bosnia and Herzegovina, both of which were populated by Slavs. The Russians were denied what they wanted—safe passage for their warships through the Straits of Bosporus, the narrow channel of water that runs between the Black Sea, home of the Russian fleet, and the Mediterranean Sea. Austria-Hungary's unilateral actions angered the Slavs in the region and infuriated the Russians, who were still excluded from the straits. At this time, Germany supported Austria-Hungary, but was unwilling to risk war with Russia. Thus, Austria-Hungary was isolated in its Balkans policy. Austria-Hungary's sense of isolation over the Balkans developed into a national obsession with keeping Russian power in the region to a minimum." <http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761579967_2/Austria-Hungary.html>

"The Height of the Dual Monarchy: 1867-1895
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For the first 20 years after 1867, Austria-Hungary enjoyed a measure of security both at home and abroad. Hungary was calm for the first time in decades. Under the guidance of Kálmán Tisza, Hungary's prime minister from 1875 to 1890, the Hungarian liberals in power were loyal to the compromise. The Magyars encountered strong resistance, however, when they tried to impose the Magyar language and Magyar culture on the non-Magyar peoples of Hungary. Austria experienced a period of reform and prosperity under German liberal governments from 1867 to 1879. After 1879, a coalition of conservative, aristocratic, clerical, and Slavic elements managed to neutralize the contending nationalities by setting one group against another so that no one group would ever become too powerful. This small group of political insiders known as the Iron Ring was controlled until 1893 by Prime Minister Count Eduard Taaffe, a childhood friend of Francis Joseph.

The Habsburg monarchy's foreign policy was simplified when it lost territory in Italy and lost the Seven Weeks' War to Prussia in 1866. It concentrated on maintaining commercial markets and keeping expansionist powers from claiming Habsburg possessions that were populated largely by Romanians and Slavic peoples. On the last point, Francis Joseph knew those territories were safe as long as he could prevent two or more great powers from uniting against Austria-Hungary. In their efforts to forestall such a combination, Austro-Hungarian statesmen showed considerable flexibility and ingenuity. They were able to achieve their foreign policy objectives peacefully by securing timely alliances with other great powers.

Austria-Hungary was most concerned about limiting Russia's expansion in the Balkan Peninsula. In 1878 the Balkan Peninsula was made up of the independent countries of Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia, and Montenegro, in addition to Bosnia and Herzegovina, which still belonged to the Ottoman Empire. In that year, with Britain's support, Austria-Hungary stationed troops in Bosnia, to prevent the Russians from expanding into nearby Serbia. In another measure to keep the Russians out of the Balkans, Austria-Hungary formed an alliance, the Mediterranean Entente, with Britain and Italy in 1887 and concluded mutual defense pacts, with Germany in 1879 and with Romania in 1883, against possible Russian attack. Relations with Serbia, Italy, and Romania were improved in the early 1880s with separate alliances. Finally, Austria-Hungary worked with Russia to resolve their mutual differences peacefully through the Three Emperors' League (1873-1878) and then the Three Emperors' Alliances (1881-1887). The three emperors were Francis Joseph, William I of Germany, and Alexander II (who died in 1881) and Alexander III of Russia. These measures helped Austria-Hungary to achieve security."
<http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761579967>

Essentially this means in 1912 there was an alliance of sorts in place between Serbia and the Dual Monarchy. Isn't that dandy? If I knew this when we started oh I'd have changed many things....

You're wearing out your keyboard to no good end with all these lectures...

I've begun a major naval blockade supported by artillery around the coastal waters of Instanbul Gallpoli and the entire northern Agean Sea (of course, only the small portion controled by me, not invading Greece's waters) Water mines have also been placed in the area not well defended by ships.

Which tactics should I employ in my army, lightning quick attacks like Germany? Defensive tactics like the French? Or the brutally organized and disiplined army formations of the British? I would like peoples opinions, I personally thought that French would work the best, but I would like to hear other people please.

P.S. Yeah, everything on those lectures, has already been explaned by Narodna Odbrana, so just stop wasting the page space.

Go brit.

My "lectures" are replies to NO and as such he wouldn't have covered them all., what with it involving rebuttles and all. I just like being thorough. It also brings to light one or 2 things about the Austro-Hungarian empire. Not to mention you've all ignored my question about what happens in the main thread.

The keyboard's new, and they're cheap. Plus it took me 4 years before my old keyboard crapped out from the typing.

Water mines have also been placed in the area not well defended by ships.OOC: You're mining the Straits?!?!?

Good Lord, do you realise that you've just deprived Russia and Roumania of the ability to bring their grain to the global market? Effectively, mining the Straits means that you've declared a blockade against these two neutral countries, because mines have no friends...

Which tactics should I employ in my army, lightning quick attacks like Germany? Defensive tactics like the French? Or the brutally organized and disiplined army formations of the British? I would like peoples opinions, I personally thought that French would work the best, but I would like to hear other people please.Try something your people have the skill to execute.

Go brit.

My "lectures" are replies to NO and as such he wouldn't have covered them all., what with it involving rebuttles and all. I just like being thorough. It also brings to light one or 2 things about the Austro-Hungarian empire. Not to mention you've all ignored my question about what happens in the main thread.

The keyboard's new, and they're cheap. Plus it took me 4 years before my old keyboard crapped out from the typing.I presume that folks are checking this thread from the main one, and of course you're free to post summaries over there.

I have been...

TA, please try to post RP stuff in the RP thread.

The undefended places have been mined. This means there are still places not mined and as long as the country seeking safe passage is not hostile, they won't be blown apart by the Greek navy. It might be a headache, but better than being 20 000 leagues under the sea.

Which tactics should I employ in my army, lightning quick attacks like Germany? Defensive tactics like the French? Or the brutally organized and disiplined army formations of the British? I would like peoples opinions, I personally thought that French would work the best, but I would like to hear other people please.
Many of the Turkish officers were trained in Germany and tryed to use the German tactics. However, the bad quality of the weapons and the lack of training in the ordinary troops meant that these tactics generally failed. Historically, Turks were best in defence ans this is the strategy I'd recommend.

Area and population of the Turkish vilayets:

http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/turkeyop.htm

Defensive tactics like the French?Historical everyone used offencive tactics at this point in history - especially France.

Historical everyone used offencive tactics at this point in history - especially France.
Yes, but, AFAIK, the Turks were not very good at it. On the defensive, they were better. This doesn't mean that in RL they used only this strategy or that they won when using it. By the XXth century, they were mostly losing, regardless of their strategy.

Amended my comment above. Citing the right quote always helps... :p

The French actually began WWI with a great offensive into Germany, IIRC, but they were pushed back with great losses and were forced into a war of attrition. Because of this, in WWII they were planning to fight a static war, so again they got their ass handed to them. Somehow, they never seem to get it right. :D

What do we do about Bulgaria? Lachenburg hasn't posted anything for a week. I checked his nation and it says "Most Recent Government Activity: 7 days ago". We can't get the war moving unless he's active.

The French actually began WWI with a great offensive into Germany, IIRC, but they were pushed back with great losses and were forced into a war of attrition. Because of this, in WWII they were planning to fight a static war, so again they got their ass handed to them. Somehow, they never seem to get it right. :DThey got it right in Napoleon's day, and before that at Rocroi (in the Thirty Years' War).

It's like that old saying about the little girl: "When she was good, she was very, very good; but when she was bad, she was dreadful."

Many of the Turkish officers were trained in Germany and tryed to use the German tactics. However, the bad quality of the weapons and the lack of training in the ordinary troops meant that these tactics generally failed. Historically, Turks were best in defence ans this is the strategy I'd recommend.

Dude, thats basically what I thought, anyway, out of all the troop formations, the french could strangleyconvert back thorugh defensive and offensive forms so I'll hire a french military advisor and several french drill seargents for this.

P.S. WTF Narodna Odbrana, I didn't say I was going to mine the entire straits, the straits are going to be only protected by ships, although we will let merchant ships through, I'm only mining the coasts where troops could land in Istanbul and the coasts around Gallpoli, not the entire strait.

I just hired General Francois Paul Anthoine of the french expeditionary corps, he will be bringing his expertise as well as 10 of his drill seargents to train at the National Ankaran Army Institute, there, soldiers will be taught into high ranking officers, that should improve my armies effectivness.

The French and Russian players need to get involved. Otherwise this no longer is realistic if my telegrams to them end up being sent to no one in particular.

TA: Could you please use the Balkan Wars RP thread (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434313&page=1&pp=15) for actions IC and leave this thread for a discussion of history, motives, plans, technology, tactics, and everything that's not a part of the actualy story line? Not doing so makes this harder to read.

SB: It is your responsibility to contact France and Russia if you want them involved. There's no reason why you can't post your pleas for aid to the Main (Age of Imperialism) RP thread (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=433959&page=1&pp=15). Don't expect France and Russia to come here and look.

Beyond that, I'm going to tell you right now that your pleas will fall on deaf ears. France can do nothing to help you, even if inclined to do so - and right now they're in a political crisis (as well as being diplomatically isolated). Boghimia is sitting in for France since Defuniak quit.

As for Russia, the Tsar is healing from an assassination attempt and has bigger fish to fry besides. And I probably have a better chance of getting him to back me up than you do, because of those bigger fish. Relative Liberty is sitting in for Russia ever since Yderia quit.

Translation: Don't expect Russia to invade the Dual Monarchy or threaten me if I don't let you have any more territory. The Russians need me as an friend right now one Hell of a lot more than they need you.

I will advertise for new French and Russia players today.

In the meantime, I get the impression that neither one of you two has checked the Main RP thread or the Main OOC thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=433496&page=1&pp=15) in quite some time. You should. The Europe we're in in this game is very different from the actual Europe, and those differences matter. In particular, SB, they might explain why I'm being so aggressive in trying to contain you.

And one last thing, SB: spend less time trying to win people over to your cause and more time RP'ing, and you'd be better off. No one wants to read a long lecture on how just your cause may be; we want you to RP, so that we can RP.

And on that note...

Roumania has issued an ultimatum to Bulgaria, demanding that they end the war with Turkey and surrender about 15% of their country to Roumanian control. If Bulgaria refuses, Roumania will invade. You have over half your army in Bulgaria. What are you going to do?

Negotiations between the new Albanian government and its neighbors will begin in July, 1912.

Roumania has issued an ultimatum to Bulgaria, demanding that they end the war with Turkey and surrender about 15% of their country to Roumanian control. If Bulgaria refuses, Roumania will invade. You have over half your army in Bulgaria. What are you going to do?Never mind, I see you've responded.

If you want Turkish support, you'll have to support Turkey to recover Salonek from Greece - which is a doable undertaking. In a war between Turkey and serbia, on one side, and Greece on the other, Greece should lose. In such an eventuality, you can count on Romania's support (Greece will try to assimilate my Aromanians; it's normal I won't like it).And you think I’m going to allow this? :p

It is well known that as a result of the Exarchate of 1870, which let Bulgaria handle Church and educational affairs in Macedonia, Bulgarian agitators have been skillfully eradicating the traces of a Serbian feeling among the Macedonian Slavs - they are systematically destroying old Serbian books and manuscripts, even scratching frescoes with the images of Serbian saints in the numerous monasteries built at the time of Stefan Dusan and his successors in the 14th century. The traditional pilgrimage of Macedonian Slavs to Serbian monasteries in Kosovo completely died out by the 1890's as a result. We insist that the Bulgarian government disband the Exarchate entirely and hand over all Church and educational affairs in Macedonia to the Kingdoms of Montenegro and Serbia. This is to happen immeadiately under direct Montenegren supervision.As a member of the Greek Orthodox Church, I can tell you that Bulgaria simply can not agree to this. But it’s nice that you’ve placed such an impossible demand on their shoulders. It will make my job so much easier. It is also well known that the IMRO(Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization) has received the vast majority of its financing by Sofia. In contrast to peaceful methods of self-determination and reforms, the IMRO has consistently resorted to violent methods of achieving said goals of Macedonian autonomy, with the most memorable example being the disasterous Ilinden uprising of 1903. The Bulgarian government is to terminate all finances provided to the IMRO immeadiately, to denounce its actions, and act in cooperation with Serbian, Montenegren, and Turkish authorities in bringing their existence to an end.Hey, two hand-forcings in a single post! That’s a new record.

Just so that you know, I had already made the decision to become the VMRO’s new patron – but I wanted to wait and see how Roumania's ultimatum would play out before doing it.

Now I don’t have to wait any more. Thanks!

Oh, yes, and one more thing... The Kingdom of Serbia requests in exchange for the muzzling of Bulgaria and a peace treaty between the Balkan League and Ottoman Empire, that negotations go underway for the ceding of Macedonia to Serbia, and the peaceful extradiction of all Habsburg forces currently in Turkish territory.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

O.K., let’s get this straight.

You can pretend all you want that “Habsburg forces” as you call them are sitting on “Turkish” territory.

But pretence won’t make it true.

All of Turkish Western Rumelia is now Albanian territory – it has been since Albania’s Declaration of Independence in Prizren on May 1st, 1912. Thus, the only k.u.k. forces on Turkish territory are the 1,000 or so Bosniaks in Palestine, providing assistance to the Porte’s forces there.

As for “Macedonia”, well right now it doesn’t exist.

About two-thirds of it is currently in Greek hands (good luck in getting them to give it to you). The other third is Albanian (and you’re not getting that, either).

As for a peace conference in Sofia, have fun. I’ll ignore whatever you do there.

And you think I’m going to allow this? :p
It was worth a try. :p

Just so that you know, I had already made the decision to become the VMRO’s new patron – but I wanted to wait and see how Roumania's ultimatum would play out before doing it.
What is VMRO?

As for “Macedonia”, well right now it doesn’t exist. About two-thirds of it is currently in Greek hands (good luck in getting them to give it to you). The other third is Albanian (and you’re not getting that, either).
But Serbia has no land connection with Greek "Macedonia" (the vilayet of Selanek). Albania is in the way.

What is VMRO?Check the RP thread...But Serbia has no land connection with Greek "Macedonia" (the vilayet of Selanek). Albania is in the way.Serbia is in denial. That's why his diplomatic note speaks of "the peaceful extradiction (sic) of all Habsburg forces currently in Turkish territory"; he is refusing to recognise the existence of Albania and standing by the notion that he can persuade the Turks to throw me out of Albania so that he can have the Sanjak as well as "Kosovo and Metohja", plus whatever else he thinks he needs in his dream on recreating Yugoslavia.

The attitude of Balkan nationalists has always basically pissed me off.

The attitude of Balkan nationalists has always basically pissed me off.
Hey, I'm a Balkan nationalist myself! The difference is I'm a realistic Balkan nationalist. :D

About the Sofia meeting: I believe a meeting between the leaders of Serbia, Bulgaria, Turkey and Romania would be realistic enough, since we are all dealing one way or another with Bulgaria. The aim of the meeting would be to discuss the situation of Bulgaria, not that of any outside teritories. Of course, the meeting requires that Lachenburg finally appears... sigh.

Hey, I'm a Balkan nationalist myself! The difference is I'm a realistic Balkan nationalist. :D

About the Sofia meeting: I believe a meeting between the leaders of Serbia, Bulgaria, Turkey and Romania would be realistic enough, since we are all dealing one way or another with Bulgaria. The aim of the meeting would be to discuss the situation of Bulgaria, not that of any outside teritories. Of course, the meeting requires that Lachenburg finally appears... sigh.You're assuming there's going to be a meeting. I'm assuming that the Bulgarians will fight.

There may be a meeting of Serbs, Roumanians, Turks, and Greeks to divvy up Bulgaria. But be careful what you wish for.

You're assuming there's going to be a meeting. I'm assuming that the Bulgarians will fight.
If Lachenburg appears, we'll know for sure. If not, why do you assume that?

There may be a meeting of Serbs, Roumanians, Turks, and Greeks to divvy up Bulgaria. But be careful what you wish for.
I don't want to divide Bulgaria. What I want to be settled during the meeting is that:

- the north-eastern territory goes to Romania

- Bulgaria pulls back from the vilayet of Adrianople and demobilises its army

- Bulgaria will not demand any other territories in the Kosovo and Salonek vilayets

EDIT: And I didn't invite the Greeks.

If Lachenburg appears, we'll know for sure. If not, why do you assume that?Because Serbia's terms are unacceptable.

You said those 4 vilyats that will make up Albania are now Albania. When did this include Macedonia? Did I miss something here where Macedonia was given to Greece? Am I that blind to read that this happened or what? I'm sorry but I'm confused. Why is all of Macedonia ceded to Greece and Albania? That territory is Slavic, one half with ties to Serbia the other with ties to Bulgaria.

I don't want to divy up Bulgaria. What point would there be in taking Bulgarian lands for me? I don't know the ethnicity of Bulgarian territory that borders Serbia but I'm guessing that Serbs are not in the majority. It would not be a plausible assimilation.

The only reason Serbia was okay with Bulgaria in the exarchate in 1870 was so that a Slavic language could be maintained in Macedonia, and NOT Greek. Historically Bulgaria tried to Bulgarize Macedonia, they didn't care for anything except to get more territory in the same way they took the same territory that Romania wants back in 1885.

When I said Turkish territory I meant Turkish territory. I knew Kosovo was no longer Turkish but didn't know Macedonia had been divvied up like that. Ugh...why do I keep missing these things.

You said those 4 vilyats that will make up Albania are now Albania.Correct.When did this include Macedonia? Did I miss something here where Macedonia was given to Greece? Am I that blind to read that this happened or what? I'm sorry but I'm confused. Why is all of Macedonia ceded to Greece and Albania? That territory is Slavic, one half with ties to Serbia the other with ties to Bulgaria.I posted a map (actually, I've done that several times). Here it is again (http://foreignaffairs.tripod.com/armillotta/vilajetet.html).

There are five vilayets shown here. The one along the Adriatic in the west, comprised of the sanjaks of Ishkodra (called "Shkodra" on the map) and Durres, is the vilayet of Ishkodra.


The one to the south of that, comprised of the sankjaks of Berat, Gjirokastra, Yanya (called "Janina" here), and Preveza, is the vilayet of Yanya. The Greeks will probably get all of this except for Berat and the northern half to one-third of Gjirokastra.


To the east of that, in dark, close diagonal lines, is the vilayet of Monastir. This is comprised of the sanjaks of Selfdibje, Korca, Elbasan, Dibra, and Monastir (also labelled "Bitola" on the map). The southernmost of those is mostly Greek (although bits of it will remain in Albania). The westernmost three sanjaks are Albanian. Monastir/Bitola is Slavic, but there's some argument over whether it is Bulgarian, Serbian, or Macedonian. My decision is the final one, and I believe it to be Macedonian.


To the east of that is the vilayet of Selanek. There are three sanjaks here: Selanek (called "Salonique" on the map), Serez, and Drama. Since this all belongs to Greece, it's not up for discussion - it's all Greek to him.


In the north is the vilayet of Kosova. Depending on the source, there are either five or six sanjaks here. Let's work with the five that are shown. Peja and Prizren are solidly Albanian. Novipazar is Bosnian - definitely majority Moslem. Pristina is mixed - Alabanian in the west, Serbian in the east, but more Albanian that Serbian. I have another source that breaks it down further, and that's the one I'll use. Uskub (called "Skopje" on this map) is also mixed. Some Serbs in the north, Albanians in the west, and a ton of Bulgarians and Macedonians.That's the breakdown as I have it.

Now, when the Porte ceded these lands, Selanek (the one in the east) became Greek and everything else became Albanian. The Porte kept Edirne (Adrianople) in front of its capitol.

There are no other European lands within the Osmanli Empire. Period.

I've decided, in lieu of recent events, to support the VMRO's claims for Macedonian autonomy. That means that most of Bitola and Skopje will go toward the creation of a new Macedonian state.I don't want to divy up Bulgaria. What point would there be in taking Bulgarian lands for me? I don't know the ethnicity of Bulgarian territory that borders Serbia but I'm guessing that Serbs are not in the majority. It would not be a plausible assimilation.Oh, but why not? Your Serb philologists and linguists have published studies claiming that there were absolutely no Bulgarians in Macedonia. Since we both know that to be a bunch of hooey, the only possible conclusion I can reach is that your people think Bulgarians are merely Serbs waiting to be assimilated. Go for it.The only reason Serbia was okay with Bulgaria in the exarchate in 1870 was so that a Slavic language could be maintained in Macedonia, and NOT Greek. Historically Bulgaria tried to Bulgarize Macedonia, they didn't care for anything except to get more territory in the same way they took the same territory that Romania wants back in 1885. I presume this is meant to persuade me that the Bulgarians will find the elimination of the exarchate and its replacement with a Serbian one acceptable?

Sorry, but being Greek Orthodox (by conversion) I know better.When I said Turkish territory I meant Turkish territory. I knew Kosovo was no longer Turkish but didn't know Macedonia had been divvied up like that. Ugh...why do I keep missing these things.Turkish territory is Edirne (Adrianople), and Edirne (Adrianople) is Turkish territory.

You (SB), Roumania (Bogie), and Turkey (TA) need to decide what you're going to do with Bulgaria. If Lachenburg doesn't show up in the next few hours, I'm going to presume that you fight him and crush him in a war.

In preparation for that, I want each of you to eyeball your troop strength. That means that Serbia should total its 1st and 2nd Armies, Turkey should total 1st Army plus V Corps from 2nd Army plus 3-4 Corps of reserves, and Roumania should total 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Armies. I'll total all Bulgarian forces and then we'll determine the outcome.

Also, set your march routes using ViaMichelin (http://www.viamichelin.com/) and report distances in either miles or kilometres (or both). Do this for each major fighting column. I'll determine where and when battles occur and set the results.

To keep it quick, I want you to determine the intensity of operations and general battle manoeuvres: Reconnaissance-in-force (a raid or probe)


Flanking manoeuvre (specify flank)


Artillery bombardment


Frontal assault


Ruses or special tactics (describe in detail; I'll figure out if they work)You may specify multiple assaults in sequence, eg. Bombardment, probe, turn right flank.

Specify an intensity of 1-5 per attack. Frontal assault can not be less than 3 in intensity, a probe or raid can not be more than 3. You may also specify two breakpoints in terms of a proportion of your entire force (10%, 20%, etc.). When you reach the first breakpoint, you'll cease all attacks. If you reach the second breakpoint, you'll withdraw. Indicate the line of withdrawal to be used if that happens.

I will assume that all withdrawals are attempted in good order. Now, what is attempted and what you get, well... :eek:

If the enemy falls back, indicate the aggressiveness of pursuit (1-5).

Assume limited supplies, and keep your supply lines in mind. Assume spring weather (so wet but not soggy ground), although most rivers will be past flood stage. Give orders to dig in where you want to dig in, or just general orders like "I'll dig in if I reach my first breakpoint (and cease all attacks)".

I will calculate morale effects. Be warned that Bulgarian morale is excellent. Romanian morale is very good, Serbian morale so-so (at least until they win a few battles), Turkish morale utterly horrid.

Forgive the sloppy haste of these "rules", but this is my basic first shot at a set of strategic battle rules. This is 1912, so expect to lose a lot of men.

But remember these things: Artillery kills. The reason why everyone believe that offence was the way to go is because guns could quickly annihilate anything in the open. No one believed that field works would save men in the open from guns, and so it was thought that moving troops (on the attack) were more survivable than stationery men (on the defence).


Machine guns were still unproven. No one believed that they were any good because the artillery would kill them instantly (see above).


Bayonets can really hurt if the enemy is spirited and gets in close. The trick is getting in close. Think "night attack".


No radio! Men had to communicate by rider, runner, heliograph, flare, smoke, horns, etc. Problem is, in a battle across a wide front (50 miles), such means break down. Thus, left lank may not know that centre has broken. Coordination was a very serious problem.


Telegraph lines can be used for communications, but laying wire as you advance takes time. Telegraph will therefore aid defenders. Consider raiding the enemy rear to cut his telegraph wire.


Supplies move at waggon speed. Waggons are slower than riding horse or marching men.


Roumania and Roumania alone has an air service (those ties with France, eh?). Thus Roumania and Roumania alone can use aerial reconnaissance. Roumania may therefore make orders somewhat conditional ("If the enemy is here in strength, do this"). But the quality of spotting is poor, weather is fickle, and ranges are short (less than 100 miles). You will have to move the support personnel up (using horse-drawn waggons) to reposition your pilots. Realistically, the pilots probably move with some army HQ.

Bombing is possible. It will have a morale effect if any at all. Of course, you can try bombing bridges or rail yards or the like, but since bombs are basically dropped grenades, don't expect too much.


Pontoon bridges can be built. That's what engineers are for. Well, that and cutting barbed wire. But the wire-cutting guys, those would be called sappers.


Artillery kills. Did I say that already? Well, I'm saying it again, for good reason. Artillery really kills.Have fun.

You're darn tootIn artillery kills, thats why I'm trying to get alot, my Krupps may not be the best guns, but hell, if you got them lines up firing into a field of charging infantry, then BOOM BABY!!!

And yes, at the Ankaran Science University all I need is a few wing adjustments, a stronger engine, and a pilot training corps, and I'll have the Ottoman Air Corps.

Now that damn engine....how do I get an engine like the Merlin 1....

And I hired Field Marshall Ferdinand Foch (France) for a hefty price to train my officers at the Ankaran Military Institute.

You're darn tootIn artillery kills, thats why I'm trying to get alot, my Krupps may not be the best guns, but hell, if you got them lines up firing into a field of charging infantry, then BOOM BABY!!!

And yes, at the Ankaran Science University all I need is a few wing adjustments, a stronger engine, and a pilot training corps, and I'll have the Ottoman Air Corps.

Now that damn engine....how do I get an engine like the Merlin 1....

And I hired Field Marshall Ferdinand Foch (France) for a hefty price to train my officers at the Ankaran Military Institute.You mean General Foch, right? He's not a Field Marshall yet.

France will have to agree to these steps...

France agrees (for a hefty price, of course ;) ). I'm posting here because I know TA doesn't visit the RP thread very often. :p

Your conclusions are starting to annoy the living hell out of me. I don't care for what biased sutidies tell me. I don't care what you think my people believe, monarchies do wonders to ignore the belief of the common people of their nation.

Sorry, but being Serb Orthodox, I especially realize that they won't like it. That's what the 450 000(ish) Romanian and Serbian soldiers are there for.

Love your decisionmaking when there's a dispute over what is Slav when there are disputes over Macedonian/Serb/Bulgarian in an area( Monastir).

Sorry, but being Serb Orthodox, I especially realize that they won't like it. That's what the 450 000(ish) Romanian and Serbian soldiers are there for.Well, then, since you know what you're doing, I'll make sure that you get what you deserve.Love your decisionmaking when there's a dispute over what is Slav when there are disputes over Macedonian/Serb/Bulgarian in an area( Monastir).Just calling them the way I see them...

You will make sure I get what I deserve? You are under no obligation nor need to do anything, and if you do, you will be seen as the aggressor. Such comments are quite unecessary. Especially so if the situation does not involve your nation.

You will make sure I get what I deserve? You are under no obligation nor need to do anything, and if you do, you will be seen as the aggressor. Such comments are quite unecessary. Especially so if the situation does not involve your nation.I will get involved in whatever I choose to get involved in, and you won't stop me.

As for who will be seen as the aggressor, well, I've done a pretty good job of avoiding anything like that to date, now haven't I?

I might get one or two more posts in, but if not, then this is to inform folks that I'll be on vacation until around 9/12/2005.

So that things can progress, here's what the Dual Monarchy will be doing. In Albania:


I will finish recruiting and training a militia. My goal is to have 45,000 men trained by the end of summer. Most of these men will be sent home by fall


Prevail upon the Albanians to pass a universal conscription law. This law will declare that, in an emergency, every man in good health between the ages of 20-45 must report for duty if called. These men will be organised as a militia; I would estimate that their total strength would be 150,000, but not all these men will be trained (hence, the value of training 45,000 now).

In addition, all men in good health aged 20 years will be required to serve three years in the regular army; this should produce a standing army of:


5,000 men by late 1912


10,000 men by late 1913


15,000 men (peak strength) by late 1914

After that, the army will remain static while the first-line reserves (ages 23-27) expand to about 30,000 men (by 1919) and the second-line reserves (ages 28-37) grow about to 60,000 men (by 1929). From ages 38-45, reservists (numbering about 45,000 by 1938) will be assigned to territorial and rear area defence.

Obviously this will take several years, so those 45,000 trained men we produce this year and then send home (equivalent to the eventual territorial militia) will play a crucial role as a second line of defence in the event of attack for many years to come.


Surplus equipment will be provided to make sure that Albania has enough gear to defend itself. Over time (a projected 10 years), Albania will be asked to shoulder a greater percentage of the cost of its own defence.


Construct the railroads specified in my earlier post (1300km total length) and improve the ports mentioned in this same post (estimated 18-30 months for the railroads, 2-3 years for the ports).


Build the fortress zones mentioned in that same post (estimated 5-7 years, although some forts will be finished in 2-3 years).


In Macedonia:


Maintain, train, and equip the present force of 16,000 VMRO soldiers now in the Bulgarian OOB (these will cross the border into Macedonia and take up positions there).


Create an autonomous Macedonian regional government. Its political affiliation is TBD (meaning I'll decide that when I get back).


In both areas:


Begin negotiations by July, 1912.


Complete negotiations with Greece by December, 1912 (I'll post results when I get back).


Complete negotiations with Montenegro and Serbia by no later than July, 1913 (I expect arbitration will be required; if so, arbitration will occur in August, 1913; again, results will be posted when I return).

Both Greece, Serbia, and Montenegro can post their demands while I'm gone (in fact, you should). For RP purposes, talks are in Vienna. Assume a July 15th start date.


In Bulgaria:


No involvement in Bulgarian War.


This does not count German SS units (these are under Relative Liberty).


Once peace is signed, I reserve the right to modify my RP of the VMRO's activities based on the final terms. I expect that the invaders will, at a minimum, get everything they want. We'll see if that's enough.


More generally:


Observe the war, noting tactics, weapons used, successes, failures, etc. I reserve the right to retroactively RP a response to these events and fit any desired changes into my military.


If a major escalation occurs (eg, Greece joining the war or being attacked), I reserve the right to react.


Turkish troops in Albania will be sent home via RR through Salonika if Greece allows, by sea otherwise. This will take several months. They will have their weapons shipped along with if Greece permits, else by sea if not, when Greece permits. If no shipment is possible, we may buy their arms for Albania and let them buy new weapons (in fact, I expect that we'll probably buy a lot of surplus Turkish arms for Albania).


Other events:


I'm taking the Bosnian force in Palestine and its activities out of this thread.


Events in Bosnia or Transylvania will also be handled in the main thread.Have fun, folks.