NationStates Jolt Archive


Anti-Doujin Pact

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IDF
28-07-2004, 03:46
IDF is calling all nations together that want to combat the Doujin class. We will work together to either end the age of the Super-Dreadnought or build our own as I have to combat the Doujin. We must stick together and join armor, weapons, and metallurgy technology together to surpass Doujin supremacy of the seas. We will have to spend money to get there, but we will no longer be at the mercy of a single pirate.
IDF
28-07-2004, 03:47
We want to develop new missiles, ships, torps, subs, sonars, radars, planes, etc.
The Parthians
28-07-2004, 03:47
I'm willing to assist (secretly)
IDF
28-07-2004, 03:48
This isn't a pact for war or anything, just a technological development group to make sure Doujin doesn't control us all.
Scandavian States
28-07-2004, 03:51
[I seriously wouldn't bother. The Doujin you know isn't the Doujin class that Doujin and his closest allies are fielding/going to field. Then there's the Reaver class, which is another animal altogether. And I'd wish people would stop acting like a Doujin makes or breaks a fleet, the fleets I field could rip apart a Doujin in no time flat, never mind any of the other wannabe vessels.]
IDF
28-07-2004, 03:52
well, your fleet can because you know the Doujin well as his ally. We don't and want to combat this and eventually the Reaper.
Truitt
28-07-2004, 03:52
I would like to help in the Missle, Aircraft, and Submarine sections (being fairly good in those). Althoguh Anti-Doujin? Plus, he does nto control us, or he will nto control him (I will rbign him down with me as many missles as I got :-P)
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 03:53
I will also participate (secretly).
Hawaiian Islands
28-07-2004, 03:54
Tropical Legion is proud to be in this Pact.

We sense overwhelming power in the future of Doujin. Looking at their new Doujin, we are making the new Escalade. Maybe even better.
The Zoogie People
28-07-2004, 03:56
As a close ally of the Empire (I think?) of Doujin, we look upon this technological jealousy with great disapproval. There's nothing wrong with trying to do something better (Doujin already is, though, so you might want to wait), but an alliance against the nation itself...we find rather extreme and unacceptable on this basis.

The Doujin Dreadnought can be destroyed...it does not control us...
IDF
28-07-2004, 03:56
I have my Guillen II class dreadnought that is meant to compete with Doujin, but we must work together and do better than that
Antarctica123
28-07-2004, 03:58
The Norad Class Super Battleship can easily destroy this Doujin (plus the Norad was the first to combine the concept of a battleship and an aircraft carrier) and it only has 20" coil guns!
Nevertheless the United States of Antarctica123 will glady join in this pact.
DontPissUsOff
28-07-2004, 03:59
Even though we consider any battleship, be it a Doujin or any other, to be little more than a very large and expensive floating target for our submarines, aircraft and missiles, we will assist in any way possible to avoid Doujni developinga psychological grip on nations.
Siesatia
28-07-2004, 04:01
Might I suggest battleing power like that, with speed, small, fast boats that hang close to the hull may have a good chance of puncturing the hull. Imagine a fleet of these now.
Scandavian States
28-07-2004, 04:05
[Don't blame the fact that people piss in their pants and go hysterical at the mere presence of a Doujin class on Doujin, that's their own fault. This stigma of a Doujin being invincible is a myth.]
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 04:06
((The Doujin controls my standing navy.... I too have tried before to make a rival to the Doujin but what ended up happening was I got cussed out by Scandavian States and put down my Doujin as well as The Freethinkers.

So I figure, why? Why have to close RP's to escape it being destroyed by this ship? Im glad someone else thinks the same way I do... because this piracy was making good naval RP's a thing of the past....))
IDF
28-07-2004, 04:11
A good option may be a mass ignore of super-dreadnoughts. I only made mine to rival a Doujin, he says other things like SCRAMjet and such can't be used against his 2010 tech nation, but his ship is well beyond that so the mass ignore can be a good option, but I don't want to do that, I want to fight the Doujin with many allies and beat it technologically.
Noitan Teppup
28-07-2004, 04:12
We find the idea of an alliance based entirely around countering a something such as the Doujin to be a bit of a joke. While we will admit that the Doujin is a powerful vessal it's hardly invincable... these displays of fear will not help your nations.

That said, Doujin does have a knack for pissing people off...
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 04:13
((Well yeah, I am currently ignoring him.. as he has ignored my missile defense system.. but I will help you beat it))
IDF
28-07-2004, 04:14
If anyone is going to combat a Doujin, call me in and I will help.
Noitan Teppup
28-07-2004, 04:14
...he says other things like SCRAMjet and such can't be used against his 2010 tech nation...
OOC: Odd, and to think that the ICBM that hit Iuthia from Doujin, was in fact powered by a SCRAMjet.

((Well yeah, I am currently ignoring him.. as he has ignored my missile defense system.. but I will help you beat it))
Yet you are joining an alliance which is against the person you ignore...
Communist Mississippi
28-07-2004, 04:28
Count me in.
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 04:35
((Well, Iuthia, since I ignored him I have never really thought much more about Doujin or his allies, but now that someone has officially brought up the topic I would lift my ignore to pursue a much more industrious answer to my problem...))
The Wickit Klownz
28-07-2004, 04:39
I'm in.
Kelonian States
28-07-2004, 04:39
Ubervessels and people who play the "we're modern tech but we're really advanced and have <foo> and <bar> advanced technologies on our units, but if you're using counters then you're future tech, ha-ha" card are ignored by me (and probably a lot of others) because they stop making the game fun for everyone else.

I've never seen Doujin (nation) do anything that bad, but admittedly the Doujin (ship) is an 'Ubervessel' and I don't accept it's use (being a modern-tech nation) anyway. If you're saying he refutes any technology you use to stop the ships anyway, is there any point fighting him?

No use forming pacts against people you've already said don't fight fair - just ignore 'em -
it's easier in the long run. (IANAM, just someone who thinks if someone isn't prepared to play fair, then you shouldn't play with them at all).
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 04:42
((May I ask where you are in Alabama, Wickit Klownz? As you can see, im up in Huntsville.))
The Wickit Klownz
28-07-2004, 04:44
I'm down south, near Montgomery. The town I live in, Tallassee, is about 40 minutes northeast of Montgomery going up I-85.
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 04:46
Yea Tallassee.. ive heard of it. I even have relatives in Montgomery... so what do ya know.. its a small world. Glad to meet a fellow nationstater from the same state.
The Wickit Klownz
28-07-2004, 04:48
Yeah, don't see many Alabamians on NationStates. By the way, you might know my grandfather, Joseph Mooty, the basketball coach.
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 04:50
Hmm.. I know a *Moody, but not Mooty.
The Wickit Klownz
28-07-2004, 04:52
There are TOO MANY people in the Moody family... I couldnt count the times people got my name wrong because of them...
Romanticizing Samurai
28-07-2004, 04:56
Well, the Fiefdom...or whatever it is now, of Romanticizing Samurai would join, but currently, inorder to keep our nations currency as a usable article, we still have wooden ships. It's not that we're isolationists, its just we don't need no stinkin' technology that takes away from the man-power needed to complete a task. I would gladly send hundreds upon hundreds of lowly foot soldiers destined to die, but it seems futile.
Grenval
28-07-2004, 04:58
Grenval will help, (secretely). Name your price.
IDF
28-07-2004, 05:00
Grenval will help, (secretely). Name your price.
money isn't the greatest need, but ideas and strategies are. We must set ups a joint research lab. I own the island of Kerguellen and have shipyards and research labs set there for secrecy, we can use those and have many scientists come together and test ideas and weapons
IDF
28-07-2004, 05:11
I present a prize of $1 trillion to whoever sinks a Doujin class vessel, I can afford it look,
http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=IDF

No nukes allowed, anything else is OK, well nukes will be allowed, but are discourages, the ship doesn't have to be in Doujin's custody, any Doujin owned by any nation is up for grabs.
The Unknown Assailant
28-07-2004, 05:12
money isn't the greatest need, but ideas and strategies are. We must set ups a joint research lab. I own the island of Kerguellen and have shipyards and research labs set there for secrecy, we can use those and have many scientists come together and test ideas and weapons

Good secrecy!

We're not telling you where our secret base is...
IDF
28-07-2004, 05:13
Good secrecy!

We're not telling you where our secret base is...
It's been disclosed forever, it is still secret as it is 1,000s of miles from any land. We have 3 fleets based there and shipyards, along with AF base and Army base, no one will get there
Doujin
28-07-2004, 05:26
((Well yeah, I am currently ignoring him.. as he has ignored my missile defense system.. but I will help you beat it))

Ignoring me? I never said I ignored your missile defense system. I did say, however, that you do not control it - the nation that created does. (Unless you are calling him a liar, then of course I would have to question the validity of you having his tech.)
Kamata
28-07-2004, 05:27
Well, if it helps, my strategy is to hit the top of the ship, and put so much firepower there that it will break the structural supports for the two outer hulls of the Trimeran. This is a lot of missiles though. Take out all of the escorts first.
Nazi Weaponized Virus
28-07-2004, 05:32
IDF is calling all nations together that want to combat the Doujin class. We will work together to either end the age of the Super-Dreadnought or build our own as I have to combat the Doujin. We must stick together and join armor, weapons, and metallurgy technology together to surpass Doujin supremacy of the seas. We will have to spend money to get there, but we will no longer be at the mercy of a single pirate.

Being a close ally of IDF now, I pledge whatever a donation of whatever The Pact requires to start building ships that combat Doujin's. I am willing to offer up to $10 Billion a year, plus an initial lump sum of $5 Billion.
IDF
28-07-2004, 05:41
Being a close ally of IDF now, I pledge whatever a donation of whatever The Pact requires to start building ships that combat Doujin's. I am willing to offer up to $10 Billion a year, plus an initial lump sum of $5 Billion.
thanks, money and ships aren't the main concern. I'd say new missiles that penetrate are, anyone want to help develop a bunker or in this case hull penetrator, if a bomb with 985 lb of Octol can penetrate a bunker 50 feet below ground, why not a supersonic 2,000 lb missile to a steel ship?
Doujin
28-07-2004, 05:43
I don't know if I should feel.. special.. that I have an "Anti" pact named after me..directed at me an the battleship produced by Doujinshi Corporation.
IDF
28-07-2004, 05:45
I don't know if I should feel.. special.. that I have an "Anti" pact named after me..directed at me an the battleship produced by Doujinshi Corporation.
we'll see the gloating when it rusts on the bottom of the ocean after we complete our goals.
Doujin
28-07-2004, 05:46
we'll see the gloating when it rusts on the bottom of the ocean after we complete our goals.

You will never fully complete your goals, as everything continually evolves. Even if you manage to create something, changes would be made, counter-measures will be developed.. *shrug*
IDF
28-07-2004, 05:50
You will never fully complete your goals, as everything continually evolves. Even if you manage to create something, changes would be made, counter-measures will be developed.. *shrug*
if you know anything, in the race between armor and guns or missiles, the firepower always wins.
Doujin
28-07-2004, 06:04
if you know anything, in the race between armor and guns or missiles, the firepower always wins.

If you knew anything, firepower hardly always wins. It takes more than pure firepower to win, and you unfortunatly aren't bright enough to realize that. You are looking for a simple miracle weapon, when all you need is tactics. Hitting the Doujin from the bottom combined with other attacks on it to take it down, etc etc... utilizing it's strengths as its weaknesses, and its weaknesses as just that. IT's a slow ship, so use speed. It's primary weapons aren't exactly fast to turn, so speed is a very valid and noteworthy tactic. The Doujin Mk.1 is semi-vulnerable to Kinetic Kill weapons. It doesn't take a superweapon.
The Wickit Klownz
28-07-2004, 06:30
No ship needs to be hit by anything other than a large supersonic projectile... I propose research on gauss rifles and rail guns....
Sileetris
28-07-2004, 06:37
(ooc: Just because offense is typically ahead of defense doesn't mean it will always be, creativity on the defensive side can considerably even the odds given the size and energy limits of mobile weapons.)

Sileetris would like to point out its support for Doujin(and the Doujinshi Corporation) based on business ties and the motivation to keep the world safe by making war more difficult to wage. We'd also like to point out that weapons will almost invariably fall into the hands of those that seek to use them for the wrong purposes, so while it may seem like a good idea to make super-ships(which seem to only be in the hands of decently peaceful countries) worthless, you are only helping the bad people that would be kept in line by their effectiveness.
Nazi Weaponized Virus
28-07-2004, 06:41
No ship needs to be hit by anything other than a large supersonic projectile... I propose research on gauss rifles and rail guns....

Would somebody explain to me what a gauss gun actually is? Is it theoretically possible?
Sileetris
28-07-2004, 06:47
Would somebody explain to me what a gauss gun actually is? Is it theoretically possible?
Its a railgun. It is possible but not practical due to energy constraints(alot is needed for repeat firing)
Doujin
28-07-2004, 06:50
Just do a google search on magnetic linear accelerators.
Nazi Weaponized Virus
28-07-2004, 06:51
Will do :)
Chardonay
28-07-2004, 06:57
THis is all a little silly... the Doujin is just a ship. ships can be sunk. If you were to make a fleet that cost as much as a single doujin, it would be better balanced and be able to outfight the doujin... not just with firepower, but tactically.
Akaton
28-07-2004, 07:01
The Evil Empire of Akaton will gladly contribute to the effort to sink a Doujin Class Dreadnought. Our nation's best strategists have been hard at work to determine a method of attack. Our conclusion is that instead of a direct attack on the Doujin's structure (which seems almost indestuctable), you can attack the crew. The Doujin has a crew of over 7000, so a neutron bomb, poison gas bomb, or thermobaric missile (OOC: A thermobaric weapon saturates an area with volatile magnesium dust, then ignites it creating an area of heat so intense that anyone trapped inside is burned.) could nearly disable the ship. With the gun crews dead, it would be safe for a large fleet of less advanced warships and aircraft to close to short range. There, even the Doujin's mighty armor could be easily destroyed by sustained barrages.

We will provide an order of 20 thermobaric warheads free of charge to the first nation to plan an attack on a Doujin, so long as they are only to be used for this attack. However, the Empire of Akaton formally refuses to directly involve itself by contributing its troops to the attack.
Doujin
28-07-2004, 07:10
The Evil Empire of Akaton will gladly contribute to the effort to sink a Doujin Class Dreadnought. Our nation's best strategists have been hard at work to determine a method of attack. Our conclusion is that instead of a direct attack on the Doujin's structure (which seems almost indestuctable), you can attack the crew. The Doujin has a crew of over 7000, so a neutron bomb, poison gas bomb, or thermobaric missile (OOC: A thermobaric weapon saturates an area with volatile magnesium dust, then ignites it creating an area of heat so intense that anyone trapped inside is burned.) could nearly disable the ship. With the gun crews dead, it would be safe for a large fleet of less advanced warships and aircraft to close to short range. There, even the Doujin's mighty armor could be easily destroyed by sustained barrages.

We will provide an order of 20 thermobaric warheads free of charge to the first nation to plan an attack on a Doujin, so long as they are only to be used for this attack. However, the Empire of Akaton formally refuses to directly involve itself by contributing its troops to the attack.

So, you are going to burn the crew alive? The crew that is under 30 inches of armor? meh, good night - sleepy time
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 07:10
If I was ever attacked by a force that was overwhelming.. I could use the MADAE.

Also, about the statement of making counter devices... all we are doing now is floating ideas around OOCly. When we are done, we will RP ICly the device being developed in some top-secret underground bunker. Then will use it as a secret weapon on the first Doujin we come across.. and then the next.. untill somehow you would find out, and then we would probably have a backup plan.

We would have to spend billions upon billions of dollars on subs to send to sink one Doujin.. given its counters as of now... and then we would have to repeat the process again and again....

Theres really no way to beat it on the surface unless you bombed it.. but I think I have been put down on the bombing thing along time ago by you. It doesnt matter if its turrets are slow to turn.. it has like 20 of them.
Doujin
28-07-2004, 07:13
If I was ever attacked by a force that was overwhelming.. I could use the MADAE.

Also, about the statement of making counter devices... all we are doing now is floating ideas around OOCly. When we are done, we will RP ICly the device being developed in some top-secret underground bunker. Then will use it as a secret weapon on the first Doujin we come across.. and then the next.. untill somehow you would find out, and then we would probably have a backup plan.

We would have to spend billions upon billions of dollars on subs to send to sink one Doujin.. given its counters as of now... and then we would have to repeat the process again and again....

Theres really no way to beat it on the surface unless you bombed it.. but I think I have been put down on the bombing thing along time ago by you. It doesnt matter if its turrets are slow to turn.. it has like 20 of them.

And again, last I checked, you don't have total operational control of MADAE - the creator does, and as he so adequatly pointed out to me so long ago - he doesn't have to and won't use it unless he wants to.
IIRRAAQQII
28-07-2004, 07:14
I could invest financially. What will i get?
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 07:16
((Doujin, it is not his.. I spent 800 billion for the thing... his men run it, under my supervision. I mean he doesnt even play much anymore if it was an emergency and his men wouldnt coorperate I could take over it by any means necessary.))
Doujin
28-07-2004, 07:23
((Doujin, it is not his.. I spent 800 billion for the thing... his men run it, under my supervision. I mean he doesnt even play much anymore if it was an emergency and his men wouldnt coorperate I could take over it by any means necessary.))

And you would spark a war with a nation larger than yourself.
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 07:24
((I wouldnt kill them, lol.. but he is my close ally and like I said, I dont think he plays much anymore.))
Doujin
28-07-2004, 07:25
((I wouldnt kill them, lol.. but he is my close ally and like I said, I dont think he plays much anymore.))

It doesn't matter, you are taking over his equipment. The way he explained it to me, it's his - you just pay for the protection from it.
IIRRAAQQII
28-07-2004, 07:27
For ignoring my great offer to assist. I curse your project! Ciao, putana! I withdrawl.
Automagfreek
28-07-2004, 07:27
As long as this remains an arms race of sorts, it's all good. But the second this becomes a bounty hunt or an act of war by some other means, Automagfreek and the rest of APTO stand ready to defend our regional ally.

Secret message to Doujin:

Be honored that they made an Anti-Doujin Pact and named it such. Obvisouly they both envy and fear you, and feel the need to band together. Stay strong, you've already got something up on everybody else and obvisouly that scares them.

http://67.18.37.14/40/9/upload/p984672.jpg
---Damien the Destroyer---
-Supreme Warlord of AMF-
Scandavian States
28-07-2004, 07:29
[Right, I think Dancing Moose just took this too far. Let me make something perfectly clear, if anybody uses any form of WMD or any other kind of dubious weapons against a Doujin my allies or myself own, what's going to happen to the offender is going to make AMF's newbie exterminations look like child's play. Capiche?]
Nazi Weaponized Virus
28-07-2004, 07:34
Oh stop rubbishing everything! This thread was made by IDF as a think-box on how we could develop a sea based weapon to destroy Doujin's heavier ships. And as for your threats SS, they were neither necessary nor productive, it just makes you seem like on of those long time noob bashers with no comprehension of the word 'diplomacy'.
Doujin
28-07-2004, 07:36
Oh stop rubbishing everything! This thread was made by IDF as a think-box on how we could develop a sea based weapon to destroy Doujin's heavier ships. And as for your threats SS, they were neither necessary nor productive, it just makes you seem like on of those long time noob bashers with no comprehension of the word 'diplomacy'.

Aww, leave the Republican alone! :P
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 07:36
PAY for the protection from it??? Hes my ally... I think thats saying enough... if he still says that he has full operational control.. then ill have to talk to him if he ever will get on AIM (like I said, he never gets on anymore.. but he keeps his nation alive).

Scandavian States, I dont even know what your talking about... I dont think you know what we are talking about... so just dont worry about this anymore, ok?
Automagfreek
28-07-2004, 07:40
Oh stop rubbishing everything! This thread was made by IDF as a think-box on how we could develop a sea based weapon to destroy Doujin's heavier ships. And as for your threats SS, they were neither necessary nor productive, it just makes you seem like on of those long time noob bashers with no comprehension of the word 'diplomacy'.


OOC: Or maybe certain people just choose to RP a society where diplomacy isn't a common word.....
Nazi Weaponized Virus
28-07-2004, 07:44
I'd be prepared to accept that AMF, apart from the fact it happens so often and sometimes people draw no correlations between the political status of thier nation, and the nation they RP. I just believe that half of the destruction of smaller, less militarily capable nations could have been avoided with a simple bit of diplomacy. And this is better for the entire community.
In addition I'd like to point out I never said, or will say that War is unnecessary in every case, in quite a few cases, e.g. Terrorist Attacks, Unprovoked Airstrikes I believe a full scale military retaliation should happen.
But that does not necessarily mean nations simply flattening cities to the ground, as recent NS Wars have proven; Strategic Bombing is just as effective.
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 07:45
((AMF.. I wouldnt go as far as to say that I envy him,.. maybe fear him, but you must understand, I have avoided Doujin for a while now, simply because I didnt see the point.. I didnt see the creative factor that Doujin seems to be trying to get across.. I still dont.. so thats why I wouldnt RP with his ship. But I guess since other people actually band together to 'fix' this problem (as I stated earlier), the goal seems more and more necessary.))
Noitan Teppup
28-07-2004, 13:56
Lets face it, while the Doujin is a nice large vessal with numberous advantages, it clearly has many disadvantages, some of which have been specified by Doujin himself.

It's a huge concentration of firepower in one boat, it's a huge target and thus needs alot of protection, it's slow so it takes time for it (and it's protection) to get anywhere and like all navy fleets it can be countered if someone carefully composes a force to do so and then faces the Doujin on their terms.

Its a nice ship and I'm sure seeing it on the horizon will scare a few people, but it's just another huge honking ship and to be honest it's value and cost alone (being phenominal) makes it a nice big target. Personally I'd prefer something a little more spread out and seeing as my navy isn't designed for the types of naval battles Doujin gears up for it's not a vessal I'm too interested in.

Like I said before, this alliance doesn't really do much other then confirm peoples fears over Doujin and playing into his hands.
Holy panooly
28-07-2004, 14:05
Good job on giving his little ships even more attention. Why would anyone be scared of a long ship with a few guns? I don't see the connection.
Axis Nova
28-07-2004, 15:01
And you would spark a war with a nation larger than yourself.

Which by your own admission has no land-based armed forces (though you may have changed that since you said that).

Heck, Doujin. If all you have is a navy, even I could take you =P

And here's how I'd take out a Doujin class (or a carrier, or any other large tough target): Axis Nova produces an antifortress missile with a superhard penetrator that is launched on a suborbital trajectory, then dives for it's target, thrusting all the way. The missile has no warhead and is designed for kinetic kill capabilities.

Such a missile would break a Doujin in half.

Axis Nova
DontPissUsOff
28-07-2004, 15:03
Bah! Standard Soviet anti-carrier/Battleship doctrine will do nicely, just one a bigger scale.
Doujin
28-07-2004, 15:34
Which by your own admission has no land-based armed forces (though you may have changed that since you said that).

Heck, Doujin. If all you have is a navy, even I could take you =P

And here's how I'd take out a Doujin class (or a carrier, or any other large tough target): Axis Nova produces an antifortress missile with a superhard penetrator that is launched on a suborbital trajectory, then dives for it's target, thrusting all the way. The missile has no warhead and is designed for kinetic kill capabilities.

Such a missile would break a Doujin in half.

Axis Nova

I'm not talking about me, and yes I have no land forces - but I have allies who take care of my land and air force needs, along with lax gun control laws there are several militias that receive some funding, and a multi-trillion home defense network manned and operated by the Navy.
Doujin
28-07-2004, 15:36
Bah! Standard Soviet anti-carrier/Battleship doctrine will do nicely, just one a bigger scale.

Funny how several Soviet Admirals were terrified of Battleships because they couldn't stop them with mass cruise missile strikes.
Dimmimar
28-07-2004, 15:37
A Doujin can be destroyed, contary to common legend. A Douin is not the be all and end all of a fleet!
Holy panooly
28-07-2004, 15:42
The Doujin indestructible? Hell a ship of nearly 1000 meters isn't that difficult to miss ain't it?
The Wickit Klownz
28-07-2004, 16:56
Okay 1) I don't fear Doujin, I just have enough common sense to know that I, in my present state of technology, could most likely lose many ships taking one out. 2) It's very possible to sink a Doujin. There is no Invincible ship. 3) I half respect Doujin because he is a genius in building naval vessels, or so I have heard.


Now that thats is out of the way, will both of his little minions leave us alone? AMF, SS, I'm talking to you.
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 17:28
((First off, It would be even harder to concieve a task force that had the intention of sinking a Doujin, if there were two or more Doujins in the area. I do no how Doujins escorts work along with his ship, nor do I know how many Doujins travel together at one time.

The Doujin cannot be sunk by just one device in a period of 5 minutes (unless its a nuke). It would take billions of dollars of warships to throw at the Doujins counters, as well as escorts, to even have a chance at sinking one. I dont even want to think about how many more he has (last I heard it was 7 or something...). So with this at hand, it would definatly take a joint effort.

The best way I say we could do this is send some planes, knock out his CAP, and then have bombers up to try and take out the Doujins flight decks first. Then hit the bottom of it with a series of torpedo attacks...(given his escorts are gone). Using surface ships larger than the size of a frigate are out of the question. Subs would be ideal for destroying his other subs and smaller escorts.

That is the only way outside of creating an entire new weapon of war that can sink it.))
DontPissUsOff
28-07-2004, 17:29
Doujin: Well OK, perhaps not the carrier doctrine (although I beg to differ regarding the cruises; the only problem would be concentrating enough in one area). But certainly the method I use to kill battleships would do nicely.

Dancing Moose: Can a Doujin reach a target 600Km away?
Kamata
28-07-2004, 17:37
Hello everyone!!!

Well, as I suggested before, my version of "killing" the doujin, would be to send missiles into space, then once all 50k of them or so are up there, and after escorts would be taken down by Hydroskipper missiles of mine, all however many missiles would rain down at once at the ship. Not all of the ICBM's, but many just modified Air-Ground Missiles. Then I'd send in my ten long range attack fleets and fire on it from 1,200 miles away with railguns and missiles. I think this could be accomplished easily within 20 minutes. Especially with the speed and accuracy of the Hydroskipper missiles. The missiles, I could picture being dropped with a huge satellite array of missiles.
Utopia Pacifica
28-07-2004, 18:00
Why make things so complicated?
The Doukin isn´t that great.
With a cost of 250 Billion/unit, you can get as well 200+ SSGN Ohio (154 Crouse missiles each).
With that if you fire ALL missiles at one Doujin in a simultaniusly attack you would get him with 30800 missiles. Even with half, 1/4 or 1/8 of that quantity you would get him down. He says that each ship can iluminate up to 476 targets. so with 5-6 times it you would need to send in between 2380 & 2856 missiles.
So at the same cost oft 1 Doujin you would be able to take out 10 of his Doujins.
& it realy doesn´t matter what he says, but there is no weapons system in the world, nor will there be one in the near (next 50 years) that can take down 3000 missiles simultaniusly comming in.

BTW: you also have the advantage that your subs can just disapear in the deep sea aftr the attack, making i for him almost imposible to track you down at a distance of 500 NM

& always remember. The bigger they are, the fasterthey fall ;)
Layarteb
28-07-2004, 18:01
I just want to sink one of those battleships for General Purposes, I have nothing against Doujin. So when you attack it, can I be there to shoot some torpedoes at it to make my life whole and meaningful?
Unum Veritas
28-07-2004, 18:16
OOC: Wonders if people realize what a huge waste this thread is.

IC: The Veritasean government issued the following statement regarding IDF's suggestion:
"Even if, in the unlikely event, IDF and this 'pact' were able to come up with some ship larger and more powerful than the Doujin Mk2 and the Reaver class, it would still do them no good. As a member of the Organization of Marine Powers, Doujin belongs to an alliance that counts the most powerful naval countries in the world amongst its ranks. Assuming this new pact/alliance/jealousy support group was able to field something strong enough to deal with one or maybe even two Reavers or Doujin classes, there is NO way they could take on the combined strength of even half the members of the OMP. Doujin does not singlehandedly 'control the seas' as IDF stated; rather, Doujin and his allies 'control the seas'...or would if they ever so desired. Although the Veritasean government supports research and development ventures, we look darkly upon this pathetic attempt to destroy a single ship design. Again, this 'pact' is a waste of time and we urge those involved to abandon their attempt before they are forced to reckon with their folly."

http://www.kprf.ru/clipart/misc/captain.jpg
High Chancellor Harding
The Naval Empire of Unum Veritas
Member: NAIA
Member: Band of Brothers
Member: Organization of Marine Powers (http://www.gaizme.com/omp/forums/index.php)
Vice President and Naval Commander: Legion of Defence (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2503299#2503299)
Owner: Veritasean Naval Industries Inc. (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=655745#655745)
Utopia Pacifica
28-07-2004, 18:18
Just go & get 100 SSGN Ohio (they´re oferd whidly on the Storefront). shot with every missile at him (15.400) & he the ship will be already dead.

Even with 50 SSGNs (7.700 Missiles) it would be more than enought
DontPissUsOff
28-07-2004, 18:23
That's the chief problem with the Doujin, with battleships in general really. They make fine flasghips and symbols but their utility in combat apart from against other battleships is questionable. For that money you could buy 250 Oscar-IIIs, which each carry 28 missiles with a range of 600Km. 7,000 missiles. Can you shoot down 7,000 missiles? Tahink that even if you down all but 1,000 of them you're going to have much of a ship left? And then there are the torpedoes to think of. No, a Doujin is a worthwhile investment only if you plan never to fight a Navy without battleships, IMO.
TheLiberator
28-07-2004, 18:28
i must agree with the zoogies people. To make a pact against the nation just because they have better technology than you? Doesn't seem all that thought out if you ask me, but then again, why am i getting involved in these modern-tech ramblings when i'm space-tech?



-theliberator, past, present, and future.
Siesatia
28-07-2004, 18:35
Im space age too, but will someone go back intime and read about the bismarck, the German 'invincible' battleship, that qualified as a Doujin, read how that one was destroyed.
Layarteb
28-07-2004, 18:37
Im space age too, but will someone go back intime and read about the bismarck, the German 'invincible' battleship, that qualified as a Doujin, read how that one was destroyed.

No way was the Bismarck a Doujin. No way, no how could it classify as that. Nothing in the world is currently 3,000 feet long, the biggest just under 1,100 feet. The Bismarck was 800 and change, which wasn't the longest in the world because the Iowa's came around and they are bigger. Bad example dude, the Bismarck was a fine battleship, not a uber-battleship.
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 18:43
((And on a second note, the Bismarck was sunk because of the British superiority in the amount of battleships they had in the area.

And in no way will a large amount of smaller battleships take on a Doujin and win. You can beat it with surface ships. At all.))
DontPissUsOff
28-07-2004, 18:44
I disagree. It's a matter of having enough and of staying clear of the main armament.
IDF
28-07-2004, 18:48
Im space age too, but will someone go back intime and read about the bismarck, the German 'invincible' battleship, that qualified as a Doujin, read how that one was destroyed.
It was scuttled, the torpedo hits didn't even damage it. I saw a dive to the wreck on History Channel, the ship wasn't sunk by the british, it survived the hits
IDF
28-07-2004, 18:50
Why make things so complicated?
The Doukin isn´t that great.
With a cost of 250 Billion/unit, you can get as well 200+ SSGN Ohio (154 Crouse missiles each).
With that if you fire ALL missiles at one Doujin in a simultaniusly attack you would get him with 30800 missiles. Even with half, 1/4 or 1/8 of that quantity you would get him down. He says that each ship can iluminate up to 476 targets. so with 5-6 times it you would need to send in between 2380 & 2856 missiles.
So at the same cost oft 1 Doujin you would be able to take out 10 of his Doujins.
& it realy doesn´t matter what he says, but there is no weapons system in the world, nor will there be one in the near (next 50 years) that can take down 3000 missiles simultaniusly comming in.

BTW: you also have the advantage that your subs can just disapear in the deep sea aftr the attack, making i for him almost imposible to track you down at a distance of 500 NM

& always remember. The bigger they are, the fasterthey fall ;)

That is the best point I've heard ina while, I'm developing a new hypersonic ASM that will be combining aspects of bunker busters and supersonic missiles, it will be VLS ship launched and air launched
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 18:56
I disagree. It's a matter of having enough and of staying clear of the main armament.

Staying clear of the Doujins main armament??? May I ask how this could be accomplished? After all, his 20 or so guns of the 'main' armament can point in nearly all directions at once. Not to mention he can track thousands of targets at a time.
DontPissUsOff
28-07-2004, 19:00
Whaddaya think the Kirovs were for? They don't carry 600Km-range SS-N-19s for nowt y'know. And with the money from building those you can build an awful lot of Kirovs. Or if you want a lot of planes. Or whatever. Anyway, my point is that surface vessels have a role against the Doujin, not on their own but in a combined attack.
Akaton
28-07-2004, 19:01
To Unum Veritas:
With regards to your government's statement that our pact is folly, The Evil Empire of Akaton has the following response. We do not seek war with Doujin or its allies. We merely supply arms to nations dedicated to creating global chaos. We have involved ourself in this pact in order for the world to see quality Akaton made missiles punching holes in the largest battleship on the seas. Our weapons are not well known, and as such they need to be used in a highly visible conflict to increase our sales. However, it is not our goal to defeat the OMP fleet or change the balance of power on the ocean.

To the Anti-Doujin Pact:
Our offer to supply kinetic armor piercing warheads is still available for the first nation to mount an attack on a Doujin class super battleship. In addition, if these warheads meet your expectations, we are willing to sell exclusive rights to produce our upcoming Mk. II Kinetic Missiles (with a higher speed projectile) to the Anti-Doujin Pact for $US 2,000,000,000.

OOC: It's bad for business if one group has complete naval suremacy. After all, who needs to buy my weapons if no one can chalenge the OMP. ;)
Scandavian States
28-07-2004, 19:11
IDF: I've already beat you to that one. I've had a Mach 12, 1400 mile ASCM with a 2,000 pound warhead for quite a while. I've also developed another missile recently that has a 4,000 pound warhead and a range improvement of 600 miles that has become my designated capship killer. Oh, and I have a battlecruiser designed around the use of these missiles that can fire over a thousand of the capship killers.

Oh, and while you may be able to design a ship to defeat a Doujin, which I doubt given the lack of any naval design expertise in this group, the actual use against such a ship can be classed as a Bad Idea. Before Doujin started selling his Doujin class publicly, he signed several contracts with fellow UnAPS members that, in the end, would result in over 40 Doujin class ships being in the hands of one group of his allies, and this was all before Doujin went totally naval. Do any of you honestly believe you could take on that kind of naval power?
Doomingsland
28-07-2004, 19:13
I've got a missile that might be capable of taking out a Doujin with a bunch of hits. Its launched at high altitude from a bomber, it then accelerates to mach 4.7, and when it gets near enough, it turns toward the ground and flies straight into the deck. It has a solid end to drive into the ship, so the kinetic energy would hopfully drive it right through the deck, and the small warhead would detonate inside. This is just a modified version of a bunker buster missile that I developed, which is a modified version of a cruise missile.
NOTE:The missile is at an altitude of at least 30,000 feet when it turns down.
Doujin
28-07-2004, 19:14
To Unum Veritas:
With regards to your government's statement that our pact is folly, The Evil Empire of Akaton has the following response. We do not seek war with Doujin or its allies. We merely supply arms to nations dedicated to creating global chaos. We have involved ourself in this pact in order for the world to see quality Akaton made missiles punching holes in the largest battleship on the seas. Our weapons are not well known, and as such they need to be used in a highly visible conflict to increase our sales. However, it is not our goal to defeat the OMP fleet or change the balance of power on the ocean.

To the Anti-Doujin Pact:
Our offer to supply kinetic armor piercing warheads is still available for the first nation to mount an attack on a Doujin class super battleship. In addition, if these warheads meet your expectations, we are willing to sell exclusive rights to produce our upcoming Mk. II Kinetic Missiles (with a higher speed projectile) to the Anti-Doujin Pact for $US 2,000,000,000.

OOC: It's bad for business if one group has complete naval suremacy. After all, who needs to buy my weapons if no one can chalenge the OMP. ;)

Kinetic Missiles are all and good against the Doujin Class Super-Dreadnought Mk.1. The Mk.2, however, is a different story. You guys are looking at the designs of the Mk.1 Doujin, not the Mk.2 which I and my allies use, nor the Reaver - which no one will use (but me of course, and I doubt I'll use it.)
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 19:17
Oh, and while you may be able to design a ship to defeat a Doujin, which I doubt given the lack of any naval design expertise in this group, the actual use against such a ship can be classed as a Bad Idea. Before Doujin started selling his Doujin class publicly, he signed several contracts with fellow UnAPS members that, in the end, would result in over 40 Doujin class ships being in the hands of one group of his allies, and this was all before Doujin went totally naval. Do any of you honestly believe you could take on that kind of naval power?

((I dont know about the rest of the people posting in this thread, but I intended this to be a creative challenge, not a blood-seeking ship-hunt.))
Scandavian States
28-07-2004, 19:19
[I think you're the only one here who feels that way, cause I have the feeling that everyone else who's in this will seek to use whatever weapons are developed here.]
DontPissUsOff
28-07-2004, 19:21
Meh, I'll only use whatever comes through if threatened.
Unum Veritas
28-07-2004, 19:21
Akaton, despite your aloofness from the pact, the supplying of arms to a group of nations with the goal of sinking a ship (and killing thousands of sailors) regardless of its nationality and without just provocation is seen as an expressment of support for the goals of that group. In the eyes of this government at least, if not the OMP, that support is as good as armed intervention on behalf of this pact. Guilt be association in a way, only you're going further than just associating by selling them arms to try to help them accomplish their piratical goals.

We have no quarrel with your nation and would greatly prefer it if you were not involved in any conflict which might arise; however, be forewarned that supplying arms to an enemy of Unum Veritas is the same as being an enemy yourself.
Dancing Moose
28-07-2004, 19:22
((Oh, well.. Im not going to go immediatly attack a Doujin vessel and face the wrath of his allies, including you, if a new ubership-destroying weapon is developed here. Ill save it to use if future RP's with him go south.

With that at hand, I say we go ahead and look to create something that will dispatch that new Reaver ship hes talking about.))
Layarteb
28-07-2004, 19:23
Kinetic Missiles are all and good against the Doujin Class Super-Dreadnought Mk.1. The Mk.2, however, is a different story. You guys are looking at the designs of the Mk.1 Doujin, not the Mk.2 which I and my allies use, nor the Reaver - which no one will use (but me of course, and I doubt I'll use it.)

If something is moving at M8 and has a penetrator warhead, the KE alone is going to blow a hole in whatever it hits so big you can fit a 747 through it. No armor is going to stop that and there is no way to shoot it down.
Scandavian States
28-07-2004, 19:28
[I'm curious how you plan to create a way to take down a Reaver when you don't even know its specs, I think I'm the only person save Doujin who has seen the preliminary specs and I don't think he's updated those recently.

Layarteb, I think you're overstating the case on KE weapons by quite a bit. My primary ASCM has a top speed of M12 and has a penetrating warhead, but there's no way in hell that it would cause the damage you're describing.]
Unum Veritas
28-07-2004, 19:29
[I'm curious how you plan to create a way to take down a Reaver when you don't even know its specs, I think I'm the only person save Doujin who has seen the preliminary specs and I don't think he's updated those recently.]

I've seen at least some.
DontPissUsOff
28-07-2004, 19:31
Besides, he'll eventually release them, and then counter-systems will be built. Old story.
Holy panooly
28-07-2004, 19:31
Superacid carpet bombing. Sounds like science-fiction but hell, a ship of nearly 3300 foot can be called science-fiction too ain't it?
Layarteb
28-07-2004, 19:33
Layarteb, I think you're overstating the case on KE weapons by quite a bit. My primary ASCM has a top speed of M12 and has a penetrating warhead, but there's no way in hell that it would cause the damage you're describing.]

I may have overexaggerated but think of this. The .45ACP goes in small and look at the exit wound it produces. A Mach 12 missile is going to create a very BIG hole if it goes all the way through (i.e. warhead fails to detonate) in which case it's going to do a lot of damage as well, even with a dud. That's quite a bit of KE in that sucker.
Kelanis
28-07-2004, 19:34
Doujin
This message is hidden because Doujin is on your ignore list.


:rolleyes:
Akaton
28-07-2004, 19:36
The Evil Empire of Akaton offically apologizes if the nation of Unum Veritas views our weapons dealing as a hostile act. We have no concerns regarding who buys our weapons. In fact, we would gladly sell technology to Doujin, Unum Veritas, and the rest of the OMP if they ask. As we stated before, we merely involved ourselves in this conflict to get publicity for our technology and test its effectiveness in combat regardless of who is on the receiving end of that combat. Our main export, the Reaper Class Wingless VTOL would be perfect for the flight decks of the Doujin battleships and would effectively ward off close range attacks.

OOC: Here are the stats for the Reaper
Length: 9.5 meters
Width: 2.5 meters
Engines: Single vertically oriented turbojet vented through rotating, side-mounted thrust nozzels.
Maximum Speed: 874 Kph
Maximum altitude: 20,000 meters
Maximum Range: 7500 Kilometers
Armor: Titanium composite with optional nano fibre thermal/laser disipation systems.
Electronics: 1) Ground scanning thermal imaging system.
2) Standard multi-frequency radar (easy to upgrade)
3) Standard ECM (easy to upgrade)
Weaponry: 1) Two 40mm light rail guns on rotating forward mounts.
2) Hardpoints on underside capable of holding 500Kg of missiles,
bombs, torpedos, or additional gun mounts.
Cost Per Aircraft: US$75,000,000
Cost For Design Plans: Currently unavailable.

IC: We prefer raw materials as payment.
Automagfreek
28-07-2004, 19:45
Now that thats is out of the way, will both of his little minions leave us alone? AMF, SS, I'm talking to you.


Damien snorted and scoffed to himself, surprised at such accusations.

You mistake yourself cretin, we are minions of nobody. For that matter, nor are we "little" by any sretch of the imagination. While we certainly do not hold an ounce of fear for Doujin, we respect the amount of fear being displayed by all of you. Yes, FEAR, for if you all were not scared, such dialog would not be taking place.

And I pray you watch your tongue, little one.

http://67.18.37.14/40/9/upload/p984672.jpg
---Damien the Destroyer---
-Supreme Warlord of AMF-
DontPissUsOff
28-07-2004, 19:48
Ah, Damien - if I may address you thus, sir? - you call us fearful. Fearful I do not think is the right word. More...circumspect. It is unwise, when Doujin's ships are floating the oceans in the hands of nations who may be our foes, not to prepare to engage them, is it not? We ourselves have no quarrel with Doujin, and as such to not fear him, though we do hold respect for him.
Doujin
28-07-2004, 19:48
Information on the Doujin Class Mk.2 Refit's armor scheme. (http://www.gaizme.com/nationstates/armor.html)
Automagfreek
28-07-2004, 19:57
Ah, Damien - if I may address you thus, sir? - you call us fearful. Fearful I do not think is the right word. More...circumspect. It is unwise, when Doujin's ships are floating the oceans in the hands of nations who may be our foes, not to prepare to engage them, is it not? We ourselves have no quarrel with Doujin, and as such to not fear him, though we do hold respect for him.


Doujin is a member of the Allied Powers, and unwarrented aggression is not welcome in our region. Doujin is not a threat to peace, because if they were we would protest and demand they be removed from our region.

But as far as his ships go, if you are concerned with them being in the hands of your foes, then work with Doujin. After all they designed them, they know how to bring them down.

http://67.18.37.14/40/9/upload/p984672.jpg
---Damien the Destroyer---
-Supreme Warlord of AMF-
Jangle Jangle Ridge V2
28-07-2004, 20:03
I would help, but after a recent attempted coup, my nation has been decimated. We're stuck to motorized rubber boats and old soviet weapons. :(
The Wickit Klownz
28-07-2004, 20:03
I dont see what the big deal is with the Doujin..... A couple of Nuclear Tomahawks would take it out, so why not just use TASMs?
Scandavian States
28-07-2004, 20:08
[You don't get it, do you? If you nuke a Doujin your entire nation is going to be glassed in return. And in my opinion, anyone who pisses off somebody who has a Doujin, and there aren't any Doujins in the hands of aggressive nations, deserves to get their asses kicked.]
Doujin
28-07-2004, 20:09
I dont see what the big deal is with the Doujin..... A couple of Nuclear Tomahawks would take it out, so why not just use TASMs?

Nukes beget nukes.
Whittier-
28-07-2004, 20:09
This isn't a pact for war or anything, just a technological development group to make sure Doujin doesn't control us all.
For a minute I was going to say. He hasn't done anything to anyone.
The Wickit Klownz
28-07-2004, 20:10
Hello Whittier...
Whittier-
28-07-2004, 20:10
Bah, they are no match for Battle Island.
Whittier-
28-07-2004, 20:11
Hello Whittier...
YOur memberships been approved btw.
IDF
28-07-2004, 20:12
NO NUKES GUYS!!! We don't want nuclear war, just weapons and strategies out of this alliance along with some fast Battlecruisers
Layarteb
28-07-2004, 20:20
NO NUKES GUYS!!! We don't want nuclear war, just weapons and strategies out of this alliance along with some fast Battlecruisers

Basically some sort of torpedo small enough to be employed but with a conventional explosive that would create a hideous large vacuum underneath the ship insomuchas we could use just a handful and be able to snap the ship like a twig. It would require some new type of explosive, no? Let's use simple physics and detonate these under the heaviest part of the ship so that when the ship immediately sinks into the void we use the weight against it.
DontPissUsOff
28-07-2004, 20:21
Yep, unless you could make an FAE detonate underwater.
Layarteb
28-07-2004, 20:23
Yep, unless you could make an FAE detonate underwater.

FAE wouldn't work as it needs air to mix with the fuel in it to detonate. Something similiar though.

It has to be big. The ADCAP has 650 lbs. PBXN-103 (This is equivalent to about 1,200 lbs. of TNT). This much is known to be able to destroy most normal ships with a single shot so...
Scandavian States
28-07-2004, 20:23
[If you had read the description of the armour scheme for the Doujin, you'd know that that won't work. It isn't built like a normal ship, which is why torpedos don't have much of an effect.
Layarteb
28-07-2004, 20:25
[If you had read the description of the armour scheme for the Doujin, you'd know that that won't work. It isn't built like a normal ship, which is why torpedos don't have much of an effect.

Thus why it has to be big, really big. Nothing can violate the laws of physics and such so basically use that.
IDF
28-07-2004, 20:50
I'm going to disband this group, I will still build weapons to combat the possibility of going to war with a nation possessing a Doujin. I think it is better if we work with him in peace than against him.
Automagfreek
28-07-2004, 20:55
I'm going to disband this group, I will still build weapons to combat the possibility of going to war with a nation possessing a Doujin. I think it is better if we work with him in peace than against him.


Pure wisdom right there. Hopefully more people will follow suit.

http://www.sideshowtoy.com/images/gold/thumb/3401.gif
Minister Hartman
-Minister of Foreign Affairs-
IDF
28-07-2004, 21:00
Pure wisdom right there. Hopefully more people will follow suit.

http://www.sideshowtoy.com/images/gold/thumb/3401.gif
Minister Hartman
-Minister of Foreign Affairs-
Thanks "Gunny"

OOC: Is it OK if I call Hartman Gunny as it is R. Lee Ermey who was a Gunnery Seargant and is called "Gunny" on Mail Call
IDF
28-07-2004, 21:02
I will still be competeing with Doujin and building things to counter it as there has to be some competition against this Microsoft, I guess I'm Sun Microsystems here LOL.
The Wickit Klownz
28-07-2004, 21:04
more like he's NASA and you're some naked fat dude with a telescope, but whatever..
IDF
28-07-2004, 21:11
more like he's NASA and you're some naked fat dude with a telescope, but whatever..
and don't forget the 6 pack
Fostralia
28-07-2004, 21:13
We in Greater Bobghanistan (OOC: an amalgamation of Bobghanistan and Fostralia, brought about because I can't get onto the forums as Bobghanistan) have our own ways and means of destroying a Doujin class or similar vessel. Most of these are classified, although I will say a few things:

Trimaran hull: Get rid of the out-riggers and the ship will not be able to fire its guns as the recoil will capsize the ship, and fitting recoil-less guns of that size on a ship would be an engineering nightmare. Plus without the out-riggers to stablilise it, the ship would become inherently unstable, would have to travel at a greatly reduced speed, and would be prone to capsizing

Aircraft Carrier decks: His outriggers are aircraft carrier decks. They are thus full of aircraft, weapons and fuel. Would make a very nice bang if destroyed.

Guns mounted in sponsons on the sides of the outriggers: Guns = ammunition and propellant. Again, a very nice bang if these are attacked directly.

A massively thick hull: Simple to get around if you have the right weapon. I have developed such a weapon, but I'm afraid its classified.

I hope these help your cause. Personally I would ignore Doujin, mainly because I personally believe him to be an arrogant bully who thinks he can boss people around with ships that from an engineering standpoint are physically impossible (I know maritime engineers that have said this). Besides, I think he's had a grudge against me since he tried to buy the production rights to all my military kit on my old storefront (Bobghanistan Military Storefront) and I turned him down on the grounds that his population at the time was about 8 million.
The Wickit Klownz
28-07-2004, 21:17
and don't forget the 6 pack
You mean keg.....
IDF
28-07-2004, 21:18
You mean keg.....
mmmmmm keg
Mental lands
28-07-2004, 21:20
I want to help you guys out. Its about time someone built an equal to the doujin.
Scandavian States
28-07-2004, 21:54
Trimaran hull: Get rid of the out-riggers and the ship will not be able to fire its guns as the recoil will capsize the ship, and fitting recoil-less guns of that size on a ship would be an engineering nightmare. Plus without the out-riggers to stablilise it, the ship would become inherently unstable, would have to travel at a greatly reduced speed, and would be prone to capsizing.

Actually, trimarans are designed in such a way that the loss of one or both outriggers isn't a crippling blow, any well-designed trimaran can float on one hull. And just an FYI, nothing explosive is in the outriggers, that would be incredibly stupid.
Fostralia
28-07-2004, 22:05
Actually, trimarans are designed in such a way that the loss of one or both outriggers isn't a crippling blow, any well-designed trimaran can float on one hull. And just an FYI, nothing explosive is in the outriggers, that would be incredibly stupid.

I've seen the specs. He has guns in his outriggers in sponsons. Guns=Ammuniton. Ammunition=Explosives.

He also launches aircraft from his outriggers. Aircraft=weapons and fuel. Weapons and fuel=Explosive.

Even if he didn't store it there and just moved it there when needed through the supports, that would make the supports incredibly vulnerable.

A trimaran that size, with guns as big as he says, would need the out-riggers to stop the ship from capsizing when he fires his guns. No out-riggers means he cannot fire his main armament. That sounds like a crippling blow to me.

What I'm trying to say is, although his design is very nice and shiny and obviously took him a great deal of time to think up, there are some extremely obvious flaws from a basic engineering standpoint before you even get into the details of the ship.
Scandavian States
28-07-2004, 22:11
http://www.gaizme.com/images/doujinbb.gif

Look again, the main guns are down the centerline and the hanger is also in the main hull. As for the vulnerability of the outriggers, they're more heavily armoured and structurally sound than any monohull can claim to be. And I don't know where you get this idea that the outriggers are some kind of support, they're there for the same reasons that they're there for any other trimaran, and none of those reasons include support for the ship.
Utopia Pacifica
28-07-2004, 22:15
Of course a Trimarran can float on one hull, as long as it is the central one. But the lose of one outrigger & certainly of both will take the ship to titl over & be finished anyway.

Also, & doesn´t realy matter how big, how many guns or how much armore a ship or anything else has. 10.000 Crouse Missiles ARE 10.000 Crouse Missiles & there is nothing that can stop them to take out the target that they´re fired on (actualy I doubt that there is anything that would have enought ammo to take 10.000 out)
Kamata
28-07-2004, 22:18
Of course a Trimarran can float on one hull, as long as it is the central one. But the lose of one outrigger & certainly of both will take the ship to titl over & be finished anyway.

Also, & doesn´t realy matter how big, how many guns or how much armore a ship or anything else has. 10.000 Crouse Missiles ARE 10.000 Crouse Missiles & there is nothing that can stop them to take out the target that they´re fired on (actualy I doubt that there is anything that would have enought ammo to take 10.000 out)
Even if it did take out the bodies of the cruise missiles, my missiles will still eject the payload forward with considerable force and hit the ship. It's not hard to develop them either.
Independent Hitmen
28-07-2004, 22:19
OOC: Ive just bought a couple of Doujins, mearly for something to do, ever since World War Two the carrier has ruled the waves, and no 600km Scramjet Shell firing Island-with-a-name-beginning-with-D is going to alter that. Admittedly it may annoy some surface action groups, but its such a damn big target I cant see it being used as the center piece of a fleet, in a war it would draw missiles like a movie star attracts women. All it would take would be one in the props and its dead in the water, there go the aircraft launching capabilities, then a sustained submarine and air attack would disable most of the big guns if not sink the damn thing.

However i will secretly donate money to this, it will be useful to see the results :)
Jangle Jangle Ridge V2
28-07-2004, 22:27
OOC: Before I post, you should know that my nation, Jangle Jangle Ridge, is being ressurected. It has a frightening economy, 2.15 billion people(approx) and horrible rights. It's in the Alliance of Socialist States :D.

IC: At the moment, I am in the process of creating a warship to rival this "Doujin". I already has a large craft, of equal size and strength, but it utilizes airjets and electromagnets to hover about the ground and water. At the moment, it is too susceptable to sea to air attacks. I need to strengthen the defenses on the bottom of the ship, which is hard, due to the electro magnets.
Doujin
28-07-2004, 22:43
OOC: Before I post, you should know that my nation, Jangle Jangle Ridge, is being ressurected. It has a frightening economy, 2.15 billion people(approx) and horrible rights. It's in the Alliance of Socialist States :D.

IC: At the moment, I am in the process of creating a warship to rival this "Doujin". I already has a large craft, of equal size and strength, but it utilizes airjets and electromagnets to hover about the ground and water. At the moment, it is too susceptable to sea to air attacks. I need to strengthen the defenses on the bottom of the ship, which is hard, due to the electro magnets.

Aren't you the guy that, basically, "gave" me trillions of dollars? lol..
Jangle Jangle Ridge V2
28-07-2004, 23:03
Aren't you the guy that, basically, "gave" me trillions of dollars? lol..
OOC:Maaaaaaaaaayyyyyybe. And I never said I would use the ship on you. I just said I had one. Don't reveal my evil plot to screw them all over. I'm trying to get you out of the fire here. Don't forget that money came with an alliance. I just need to ressurect my nation.
Hogsweat
28-07-2004, 23:12
The United Kingdoms of Hogsweat supports Doujin on the matter of this Alliance. We stand together against any moves made by such a warmongering ideal.
Mental lands
28-07-2004, 23:44
The United Kingdoms of Hogsweat supports Doujin on the matter of this Alliance. We stand together against any moves made by such a warmongering ideal.

The Doujin class in itself is a warmongering ideal. As soon as I learnt about such a thing I began a project to find ways of counteracting the threat of the doujin and ready through this topic i saw that many others are doing the same. so all this topic is doing is allowing people the chance to defend themselves.
Layarteb
28-07-2004, 23:46
The Doujin class in itself is a warmongering ideal. As soon as I learnt about such a thing I began a project to find ways of counteracting the threat of the doujin and ready through this topic i saw that many others are doing the same. so all this topic is doing is allowing people the chance to defend themselves.

While I have nothing against Doujin or IDF, both of whom have these gigantor battleships, I regard all as a threat to the EOL if they were within 500 miles and thereby ways to sink any of them are being researched by the EOL.
Hogsweat
28-07-2004, 23:46
Incorrect. The Doujin class Super Battleship is a symbol of Doujin's might - not a warmongering ideal. Get some experience round here, and then come round saying things about Doujin.
Jangle Jangle Ridge
28-07-2004, 23:51
The Doujin class in itself is a warmongering ideal. As soon as I learnt about such a thing I began a project to find ways of counteracting the threat of the doujin and ready through this topic i saw that many others are doing the same. so all this topic is doing is allowing people the chance to defend themselves.

Well then, if you don't like his ships, then you'll HATE the Terracostes. I just hope you don't push through your pact, because then I'd have to rip apart your nation as if it was toilet paper. Because I really don't like people who try and limit my allies.

OOC: I'm baaaaaaaack! :D
Utopia Pacifica
28-07-2004, 23:52
but there are ways & WAYS to express your might.

The last one was defenetly not the right one
Jangle Jangle Ridge
28-07-2004, 23:57
but there are ways & WAYS to express your might.

The last one was defenetly not the right one


Ehh, I try.
Mental lands
28-07-2004, 23:59
Incorrect. The Doujin class Super Battleship is a symbol of Doujin's might .

Yes it is a symbol of might. It also encourages the creation of weapons equal to that might because people fear that might. Don't believe me just look at the creation of nukes. Every country in the world that was capital of creating them did after America showed the world there potential in Japan (yes I do know the names of the cites but I don't know how to spell them) and that’s exactly whets happening here. I may not have much experience on this board but I know my history.
Mental lands
29-07-2004, 00:00
Well then, if you don't like his ships, then you'll HATE the Terracostes. I just hope you don't push through your pact, because then I'd have to rip apart your nation as if it was toilet paper. Because I really don't like people who try and limit my allies.

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! i'm all for this project! I even want to help out. its hogsweat whos aginst it
Jangle Jangle Ridge
29-07-2004, 00:04
WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! i'm all for this project! I even want to help out. its hogsweat whos aginst it


I'm Doujin's ally. And trying to outlaw the Doujins annoys me. So I figure I should throw my weight around. Just a little, at least.
Jangle Jangle Ridge
29-07-2004, 00:39
What, did I scare everyone off or something?
DontPissUsOff
29-07-2004, 00:42
It's all the weight man. In the words of Homer Simpson: "Whee!! Look at the flab go!"
Hogsweat
29-07-2004, 00:44
WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! i'm all for this project! I even want to help out. its hogsweat whos aginst it

What are you talking about? I'm pro-Doujin.
The Zoogie People
29-07-2004, 00:45
If anyone is going to combat a Doujin, call me in and I will help.



I present a prize of $1 trillion to whoever sinks a Doujin class vessel, I can afford it look,
http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=IDF

No nukes allowed, anything else is OK, well nukes will be allowed, but are discourages, the ship doesn't have to be in Doujin's custody, any Doujin owned by any nation is up for grabs.



we'll see the gloating when it rusts on the bottom of the ocean after we complete our goals.



I'm going to disband this group, I will still build weapons to combat the possibility of going to war with a nation possessing a Doujin. I think it is better if we work with him in peace than against him


IDF, check your TGs, or if you feel so inclined, you don't have to, because I've posted a replica here.

The Zoogiedom government has sent a telegram to its counterpart in the nation of IDF regarding the 'anti-doujin pact' situation...


To whom it may concern:

I am sure that IDF remembers past affiliation with Zoogiedom in one way or another, although it was not significant. We remember you from your DDX-esque destroyers, numerous amounts of which by no apparent fault of your own fell into the hands of pirates and terrorists...Farragut it was called, wasn't it?

We had always viewed your nation in high regard...until now. We have before us assembled a series of government statements that we find to be most incriminating.

"If anyone is going to combat a Doujin, call me in and I will help."

"I present a prize of $1 trillion to whoever sinks a Doujin class vessel, I can afford it look,
http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=IDF

No nukes allowed, anything else is OK, well nukes will be allowed, but are discourages, the ship doesn't have to be in Doujin's custody, any Doujin owned by any nation is up for grabs."

"we'll see the gloating when it rusts on the bottom of the ocean after we complete our goals"

As a staunch ally of Doujin and numerous, numerous other nations involved in this issue, these statements and the incident in general has understandably made the defense minister, president, foreign minister, intelligence services, and the government as a whole...angry.

"I'm going to disband this group, I will still build weapons to combat the possibility of going to war with a nation possessing a Doujin. I think it is better if we work with him in peace than against him"

We see that you have backed down from repeated pressure by such nations as Automagfreek. Wise decisions, but we still no longer hold your nation in high esteem. As a purely technological endeavor to build a battleship to rival the Doujin, it would have been fine...but you have made clear your original intent...and as an ally and nation in ownership of a Doujin-class dreadnought...we do not take this lightly.

Regards,
Zoogiedom Foreign Ministry
The Wickit Klownz
29-07-2004, 01:04
Okay, Zoogies, youre just being ignorant.... we feel that Doujin has become quite... advanced in the area of naval vessels, and we figured why not band together and come up with something to catch up to him.
Mental lands
29-07-2004, 01:05
It's all the weight man. In the words of Homer Simpson: "Whee!! Look at the flab go!"

really! i always thought he said "WOOHO Look at that flubber fly." :p
Scandavian States
29-07-2004, 01:28
Okay, Zoogies, youre just being ignorant.... we feel that Doujin has become quite... advanced in the area of naval vessels, and we figured why not band together and come up with something to catch up to him.

[Why don't you look look the word ignorant up? Ignorant implies that he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about, yet the quotes seem to imply that he does. And Doujin has become so advanced because of the help he has recieved from a maritime engineer, well several if you count Freethinkers' connections in the field. Somehow I doubt that any of you have anything resembling Freethinkers' skills set.]
Hogsweat
29-07-2004, 01:48
So basically you are forming an alliance against someone because they have better ships than you? LOL.
Jangle Jangle Ridge
29-07-2004, 01:51
So basically you are forming an alliance against someone because they have better ships than you? LOL.
Oooh, ally against me next!
Mental lands
29-07-2004, 01:58
So basically you are forming an alliance against someone because they have better ships than you? LOL.


Why not that’s the point off alliances. To increase your strength against an aggressor who has greater strength.
The Zoogie People
29-07-2004, 01:58
Okay, Zoogies, youre just being ignorant.... we feel that Doujin has become quite... advanced in the area of naval vessels, and we figured why not band together and come up with something to catch up to him.

Which is, if anything, a good thing, except IDF offered to help anyone who wanted to combat a Doujin vessel - a threat to our national security as we are in possesion of two (or will be as soon as they are done) - and he placed a trillion dollar award tag on destroying a Doujin-class vessel...


we'll see the gloating when it rusts on the bottom of the ocean after we complete our goals.


Doesn't this imply to you that the 'goals' involves sending a Doujin-class to the bottom of the ocean? It does to me.

Anyways, a trillion dollars would break his bank. It's a third of his national budget, that's not really being able to afford it.
Jangle Jangle Ridge
29-07-2004, 02:07
Well, Zoogie, I'm not going to let them sink a Doujin. My Terracostes are back on the market, and my personal ones have deep water-penetrating weapons, along with some small drone subs that I can launch from the plane catapults, to use as much underwater eyes.
Scandavian States
29-07-2004, 02:08
Why not that’s the point off alliances. To increase your strength against an aggressor who has greater strength.

[The only aggressors here are you bungholes, Doujin didn't even know who you people were until you started shooting off.]
Doujin
29-07-2004, 02:10
I don't recall ever being the agressor in pretty much any conflict, all my actions have been in response and in the interest in the nation of Doujin and her allies.
Mental lands
29-07-2004, 02:18
can we just get back to the topic of building this ship
Jangle Jangle Ridge
29-07-2004, 02:26
Yes you can, as soon as I know where you'll build it.
Markov
29-07-2004, 02:31
OOC: The answer is simple, the weakness of any none submersible ship is supercavitation. I'm working on my own super-cav program right now and it should be done by mid-august. I would be happy to assist you in your quest to prevent Doujin from ruling the seas. Please telegram me.
IDF
29-07-2004, 02:34
about the Farragut class, there are thousands in the world's oceans, I've made over 1,000 that have been in my navy or been sold abroad, then there are 1000s more from production right sale. I don't even know who has them becuase of that and some nations got strict action from me for selling to anti-Israel nations to attack me.
The Zoogie People
29-07-2004, 02:36
We do not blame you for this. You are dodging the question at hand.
IDF
29-07-2004, 02:40
Zoogie, I didn't back down because of AMF, he posted after I backed down. I want to see a Doujin class sink because the psychological effect and plus being a guy it is fun to watch something big blow up and sink.
Scandavian States
29-07-2004, 02:44
Zoogie, I didn't back down because of AMF, he posted after I backed down. I want to see a Doujin class sink because the psychological effect and plus being a guy it is fun to watch something big blow up and sink.

[I think the psychological effect of having one of my Doujin class ships sunk can be summed up in one word: pissed.]
Jangle Jangle Ridge
29-07-2004, 02:48
Hmm. I could sum it up in a word and a number:50 Terracoste's
The Zoogie People
29-07-2004, 02:50
As long as this remains an arms race of sorts, it's all good. But the second this becomes a bounty hunt or an act of war by some other means, Automagfreek and the rest of APTO stand ready to defend our regional ally.

Secret message to Doujin:

Be honored that they made an Anti-Doujin Pact and named it such. Obvisouly they both envy and fear you, and feel the need to band together. Stay strong, you've already got something up on everybody else and obvisouly that scares them.


---Damien the Destroyer---
-Supreme Warlord of AMF-



NO NUKES GUYS!!! We don't want nuclear war, just weapons and strategies out of this alliance along with some fast Battlecruisers



I'm going to disband this group, I will still build weapons to combat the possibility of going to war with a nation possessing a Doujin. I think it is better if we work with him in peace than against him.


AMF had several posts starting from p5 by the time you finally backed down on p9, but it doesn't matter. Other nations were unfriendly to the idea as well...

-

You are simply stating our problem - that you wish to see a Doujin destroyed. We don't care why you wish to see it, but Zoogiedom and many of its allies are in possession of such ships....
Layarteb
29-07-2004, 03:14
Actually, thinking about it, I know what would sink every uber-BB out there. James Bond. And I bet he'd get laid in the process too!
Jangle Jangle Ridge
29-07-2004, 03:16
Oh but of course. AND he would get a game deal out of it.
Layarteb
29-07-2004, 03:17
Call it Operation Stormy Waters. Oh man...Do I smell an RP coming? I finally get to SINK ONE!!! YAYA!!!!
Scandavian States
29-07-2004, 05:53
[In a completely OT statement, I think your libs for Fighter's Anthology kick ass, Layarteb.]
Vastiva
29-07-2004, 09:48
[Don't blame the fact that people piss in their pants and go hysterical at the mere presence of a Doujin class on Doujin, that's their own fault. This stigma of a Doujin being invincible is a myth.]

You make much noise.
Show facts.

It makes for no conversation to constantly hear you crow about how you could beat a Doujin, yet each suggestion which comes up from any other corner is met with "No, it defends against that" with no details.

So, enough ego banter. Facts and figures.
Doujin
29-07-2004, 09:50
You make much noise.
Show facts.

It makes for no conversation to constantly hear you crow about how you could beat a Doujin, yet each suggestion which comes up from any other corner is met with "No, it defends against that" with no details.

So, enough ego banter. Facts and figures.

There are many easy ways to kill a Doujin Class, simplest of those would probably be Rods of God.
Vastiva
29-07-2004, 09:52
Ubervessels and people who play the "we're modern tech but we're really advanced and have <foo> and <bar> advanced technologies on our units, but if you're using counters then you're future tech, ha-ha" card are ignored by me (and probably a lot of others) because they stop making the game fun for everyone else.

I've never seen Doujin (nation) do anything that bad, but admittedly the Doujin (ship) is an 'Ubervessel' and I don't accept it's use (being a modern-tech nation) anyway. If you're saying he refutes any technology you use to stop the ships anyway, is there any point fighting him?

No use forming pacts against people you've already said don't fight fair - just ignore 'em -
it's easier in the long run. (IANAM, just someone who thinks if someone isn't prepared to play fair, then you shouldn't play with them at all).


Being new, I'll give the benefit of the assumption he fights fair. I'll also assume this isn't extreme egotism, that the Doujin and all the rest are actually designed ships, and he's not playing at "mines bigger".

Its huge, it's well armed - but it's not invulnerable, it's a ship. As I've said, I guarantee a one shot kill on a Doujin because I read Heinlein and would have no problem in dropping a 300 ton HUDAP rock from the moon on one as a "specious counter".

However, I'm more interested in what has been come up with, what the difficulties are, and how they can be overcome, particularly as an intellectual exercise.
Vastiva
29-07-2004, 09:56
thanks, money and ships aren't the main concern. I'd say new missiles that penetrate are, anyone want to help develop a bunker or in this case hull penetrator, if a bomb with 985 lb of Octol can penetrate a bunker 50 feet below ground, why not a supersonic 2,000 lb missile to a steel ship?

Well, I've got a Doujin (or anything else) breaker in development, but it's not a very efficient weapon... it's 65,000 pounds, laser guided, free fall. If it hits - and being the size of a bus, I doubt it would against something with that much air defense - it would do horrible damage to the target.
Vastiva
29-07-2004, 09:57
There are many easy ways to kill a Doujin Class, simplest of those would probably be Rods of God.

You mean flying crowbars? The depleted uranium I-beams fired from orbital positions?
Vastiva
29-07-2004, 09:59
You will never fully complete your goals, as everything continually evolves. Even if you manage to create something, changes would be made, counter-measures will be developed.. *shrug*

Uhm, Doujin - this is the counter-measure. See, you made big ship, we're after big gun, and so on and so forth.

So, of course it never ends - but it does make for an interesting race, no? You might take it as a compliment, and a "challenge"?
Sileetris
29-07-2004, 10:02
Well, I've got a Doujin (or anything else) breaker in development, but it's not a very efficient weapon... it's 65,000 pounds, laser guided, free fall. If it hits - and being the size of a bus, I doubt it would against something with that much air defense - it would do horrible damage to the target.

You wanna see how fast a bus* can be torn apart by 20mm chainguns? Nevermind getting a plane large enough to carry it over a fleet of warships....

*Full of explosives and travelling in a very predictable fashion
Holy panooly
29-07-2004, 10:03
superacid.
Doujin
29-07-2004, 10:08
Being new, I'll give the benefit of the assumption he fights fair. I'll also assume this isn't extreme egotism, that the Doujin and all the rest are actually designed ships, and he's not playing at "mines bigger".

Its huge, it's well armed - but it's not invulnerable, it's a ship. As I've said, I guarantee a one shot kill on a Doujin because I read Heinlein and would have no problem in dropping a 300 ton HUDAP rock from the moon on one as a "specious counter".

However, I'm more interested in what has been come up with, what the difficulties are, and how they can be overcome, particularly as an intellectual exercise.

Pretty much the only naval affair I've been in is linked below.

Exact Post (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6215378&postcount=93)

Full page (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=321383&page=3&pp=40)
Vastiva
29-07-2004, 10:09
OOC: Wonders if people realize what a huge waste this thread is.

IC: The Veritasean government issued the following statement regarding IDF's suggestion:
"Even if, in the unlikely event, IDF and this 'pact' were able to come up with some ship larger and more powerful than the Doujin Mk2 and the Reaver class, it would still do them no good. As a member of the Organization of Marine Powers, Doujin belongs to an alliance that counts the most powerful naval countries in the world amongst its ranks. Assuming this new pact/alliance/jealousy support group was able to field something strong enough to deal with one or maybe even two Reavers or Doujin classes, there is NO way they could take on the combined strength of even half the members of the OMP. Doujin does not singlehandedly 'control the seas' as IDF stated; rather, Doujin and his allies 'control the seas'...or would if they ever so desired. Although the Veritasean government supports research and development ventures, we look darkly upon this pathetic attempt to destroy a single ship design. Again, this 'pact' is a waste of time and we urge those involved to abandon their attempt before they are forced to reckon with their folly."

http://www.kprf.ru/clipart/misc/captain.jpg
High Chancellor Harding
The Naval Empire of Unum Veritas
Member: NAIA
Member: Band of Brothers
Member: Organization of Marine Powers (http://www.gaizme.com/omp/forums/index.php)
Vice President and Naval Commander: Legion of Defence (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2503299#2503299)
Owner: Veritasean Naval Industries Inc. (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=655745#655745)


OOC *yawn* Yep, quite enough d*** waving. It's a game. Nothing you state actually exists. There is no way you or anyone can affect my "country" if I choose that it does not. You control nothing but an imaginary area, and then only if others agree that your forces exist in the first place.

That being said, this thread is a means to come up with weapons to challenge supremacy. If you have such a problem with that - obviously your ego needs looking at, particularly if you are incapable of coming up with counters to counters to counters et al and must rely on ridiculous threats.

Alright, your fleet appears. I drop the moon on them. Game over. Did you have fun?

There is nothing "wrong" with looking for countermeasures to any device or tactic. From this comes competitive technology and wargames - in other words, the fun of the matter.

If you're going to play gorilla, do go elsewhere. I'd rather have an entertaining time attempting to discern how I would manage to make my country less likely to be overthrown by an enemy with a Doujin or Reaver or whatever then listen to chest pounding nonsense.
Vastiva
29-07-2004, 10:14
IDF: I've already beat you to that one. I've had a Mach 12, 1400 mile ASCM with a 2,000 pound warhead for quite a while. I've also developed another missile recently that has a 4,000 pound warhead and a range improvement of 600 miles that has become my designated capship killer. Oh, and I have a battlecruiser designed around the use of these missiles that can fire over a thousand of the capship killers.

Oh, and while you may be able to design a ship to defeat a Doujin, which I doubt given the lack of any naval design expertise in this group, the actual use against such a ship can be classed as a Bad Idea. Before Doujin started selling his Doujin class publicly, he signed several contracts with fellow UnAPS members that, in the end, would result in over 40 Doujin class ships being in the hands of one group of his allies, and this was all before Doujin went totally naval. Do any of you honestly believe you could take on that kind of naval power?


It's a game. And, knowing anything exists, you can design it that much faster and create improvements. See also Japan. And if you're so ultramegapowerful that no one else can ever do anything - isn't it boring playing with yourself? This is exactly why powergamers leave games - once you have all the power, then what?

Enough egotism! IF the concept can be gotten, the engineers and designers will do their thing. Theoreticians come first.
Jangle Jangle Ridge
29-07-2004, 10:21
It's a game. And, knowing anything exists, you can design it that much faster and create improvements. See also Japan. And if you're so ultramegapowerful that no one else can ever do anything - isn't it boring playing with yourself? This is exactly why powergamers leave games - once you have all the power, then what?

Enough egotism! IF the concept can be gotten, the engineers and designers will do their thing. Theoreticians come first.
He's not ultra mega powerful... just smarter. Hey, most people call me a PG and a godmod, but I never get tired of playing and beating down small things with my superior numbers and technology. But then, how can that not be fun?
Sileetris
29-07-2004, 10:25
This is first and foremost a game about politics. Science is affected by politics. If politics doesn't want science to do something, science better have some politics behind it for support. There is no egotism in saying he is part of a massive alliance, because that is true. There is no egotism in warning you not to waste your time, because there is no quick solution. You may proceed with your research anyway, but the political repercussions will hit you.

Science controls the threats.
Politics controls the guns.
Vastiva
29-07-2004, 10:28
You wanna see how fast a bus* can be torn apart by 20mm chainguns? Nevermind getting a plane large enough to carry it over a fleet of warships....

*Full of explosives and travelling in a very predictable fashion

Dear George, I never said it was a "good" weapon. Actually, I think I said up front it was terrible and had little-to-no chance of doing anything because it would never get to that target.

Then again, that's not the job it's intended for, so no skin off my nose.
Vastiva
29-07-2004, 10:31
Pretty much the only naval affair I've been in is linked below.

Exact Post (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6215378&postcount=93)

Full page (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=321383&page=3&pp=40)

Thank you very much, very much appreciated.

See, this is what makes for fun on both sides.
Jangle Jangle Ridge
29-07-2004, 10:33
This is first and foremost a game about politics. Science is affected by politics. If politics doesn't want science to do something, science better have some politics behind it for support. There is no egotism in saying he is part of a massive alliance, because that is true. There is no egotism in warning you not to waste your time, because there is no quick solution. You may proceed with your research anyway, but the political repercussions will hit you.

Science controls the threats.
Politics controls the guns.
Well said, though I disagree about what the game is foremost about. It's different for different people. For me, it IS about science. That's mostly because, in real life, I'm a science nut. I couldn't sleep last night because I was busy thinking about next years science fair project(Proving and/or disproving the possibility of Prism cannons, or the concentration of a laser utilizing a crystal). So yeah, I am a geek. But it's all good.
Vastiva
29-07-2004, 10:35
He's not ultra mega powerful... just smarter. Hey, most people call me a PG and a godmod, but I never get tired of playing and beating down small things with my superior numbers and technology. But then, how can that not be fun?

It's not fun as it's variations on a theme, an ego feed. It would take a very needy ego to continue to have fun in simply beating down things smaller then you. Whoopie! Now what! Mug kindergardeners? Boring.

I accept that Michael is bright, and has come up with wonderful systems. I accept his ship is one of the best I've ever seen. I accept this because he actually shows his stuff and doesn't wave it around like a gorilla.

BTW - real life? A sniper only needs one shot, a terrorist only needs to get close once, and the leader is dead. Period. And lets see if you're still playing the same game in five years - most likely not. The search for a bigger challenge is a necessity of life.
Aust
29-07-2004, 10:54
I'll join.
Fostralia
29-07-2004, 15:22
http://www.gaizme.com/images/doujinbb.gif

Look again, the main guns are down the centerline and the hanger is also in the main hull. As for the vulnerability of the outriggers, they're more heavily armoured and structurally sound than any monohull can claim to be. And I don't know where you get this idea that the outriggers are some kind of support, they're there for the same reasons that they're there for any other trimaran, and none of those reasons include support for the ship.


I'm not talking about his main armament. If YOU look again, at the picture you supply, you will see guns, in sponsons, along the side of the outrigger (in the centre of the picture if you need some help). The flight deck is also along the top of the out-rigger. Flight deck=aircraft=explosives. Small guns in sponsons=ammuniton=explosives. These factors make the outriggers vulnerable to attack.

I know that outriggers on normal trimarans aren't there for support, however, this is not a normal trimaran. Its an unrealistic and ridiculously large trimaran. It has guns so big that if it were a conventional, single hulled ship the recoil from the guns would make it capsize every time it fired a broadside. Therefore, if one were to get rid of the outriggers, then the ship would be unable to fire its main guns in any useful way for fear of capsizing.
Doujin
29-07-2004, 15:36
I'm not talking about his main armament. If YOU look again, at the picture you supply, you will see guns, in sponsons, along the side of the outrigger (in the centre of the picture if you need some help). The flight deck is also along the top of the out-rigger. Flight deck=aircraft=explosives. Small guns in sponsons=ammuniton=explosives. These factors make the outriggers vulnerable to attack.

I know that outriggers on normal trimarans aren't there for support, however, this is not a normal trimaran. Its an unrealistic and ridiculously large trimaran. It has guns so big that if it were a conventional, single hulled ship the recoil from the guns would make it capsize every time it fired a broadside. Therefore, if one were to get rid of the outriggers, then the ship would be unable to fire its main guns in any useful way for fear of capsizing.

Actually, to my understanding, the vessel was designed to be able to lose an outrigger and still use it's main armament. And the aircraft are always in the main centerline hull, unless there is an armed conflict in which they need to be deployed, at which time they taxi out and launch from the center hull.

The outrigger is more heavily armored than most parts of the vessel, therefor I personally am not worried.
Pogmo Thoin
29-07-2004, 15:54
thought you were out of here for a while...

I'm taking a break (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=343831)
Fostralia
29-07-2004, 16:13
Actually, to my understanding, the vessel was designed to be able to lose an outrigger and still use it's main armament. And the aircraft are always in the main centerline hull, unless there is an armed conflict in which they need to be deployed, at which time they taxi out and launch from the center hull.

The outrigger is more heavily armored than most parts of the vessel, therefor I personally am not worried.

I'm so glad you're not worried. Over-confidence is such a wonderful weakness to exploit.
Tyrandis
29-07-2004, 18:14
OOC: Since you guys are interested in bringing down Doujin-sized vessels...

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=343830

I <3 Ekranoplans. It's not the size it's how you use it :p.
Western Asia
29-07-2004, 19:15
Information on the Doujin Class Mk.2 Refit's armor scheme. (http://www.gaizme.com/nationstates/armor.html)

Just from a purely technical viewpoint, some of the features mentioned there will NOT work.

- EMP shielding. In order to form an effective faraday cage, the rods set in the composite layer would have to be crossed at right angles and precisely spaced to block out specific frequencies of electromagnetic energy. Most cold war era faraday cages could not stand the EMP energy of a blast more than many miles away...anything closer overwhelmed the old faraday cages and would overwhelm any modern faraday cages. Additionally, EMP weapons can be (and are) tuned to produce EMPs at other frequencies (or even multiple frequencies concurrently) and so are not even minorly affected by faraday cages tuned for even a hertz or two in either direction...and with a wide range of bands most faraday-based protections are a hopeless waste of money and time and space. The use of fiberoptics and "analog" back-up systems is a good way of protecting against EM issues, as is the heavy conductive armoring of the ship itself, which will certainly dampen the EMP strength somewhat.

- Composite/steel structure 'bending' KE projectiles. Unless your enemy is stupid enough to use steel or iron KE penetrators...this won't work. The forces will favor a tungsten-carbide or DU or other similarly high density KE weapon against your steel bars. The bars will certainly offer some resistance to the KE weapons, but it will be more effective against blast weapons...as cobham armor is. The "path of least resistance" issue will cause the round to deflect somewhat, but if anything bends it will be your steel cross-bar insets.

- ERA: is probably limited to areas well above the corrosive sea water and is less effective at reacting to KE projectiles than to blast warheads...although it's very effective against many anti-tank styled warheads as well as conventional modern missile warheads. As far as the picturing of the ERA panels, if the ERA were designed like that it would be pretty bad at blocking enemy shots in any case, due to the angling...modern ERA is not the old blocky ERA of the first generation systems and generally is advanced enough to be set in hull-shape conforming packs that look like tiles rather than bulky (non aerodynamic) projections. I would recommend a quick google for the israeli "blazer" type ERA armoring that uses angled panels to increase ERA effectiveness.

- General armoring: One positive thing that isn't mentioned on the page (at least that I saw) is that the entire array has a slight slant to it, which effectively makes the armor much "thicker" than the depth of any of the armor panels. Since any round hitting the armoring straight-on would have to follow an angular path through the materials (relative to their orientation) the armor is 'deeper' when approached from the horizontal.

- "honeycomb" framework: from the illustration, it appears that the Doujin has more of a cubbyhole frame than a real, hexagonal-based honeycomb design. The strength and flexibility of hexagons would be a better bet than vertical and horizontal crossbeams making up the majority of the frame (as the picture would indicated). Vertical and horizontal supports for the decks themselves is certainly important, but a hexagonal structure would provide a significantly stronger internal frame structure.

- Quadkeel system: While this will protect against the effects of a modern shipkiller torpedo (ie, Mk 48 Mod 5/6 ADCAP), it will not do as well as you say. The most effective and modern US torpedos operate by generating not a vacuum beneath the target ship but rather by providing enough force to bodily lift many smaller naval vessels into the air, which then fall slightly only to catch the main force of the weapons blast, which cracks the entire hull. The force is enough to rip destroyer-sized vessels cleanly in two (As is seen here (http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_forces/gallery/slideshow_010202.shtml)). Frankly, any ship that floats will have structural damage from one or more Mk 48s going off...the difference is in survival, in which case the quadkeel system will improve its survivability by probably 5x...of course the hull itself may receive serious damage and the quadkeel system will reduce the hydrodynamic effectiveness of the hull if forces are really evenly distributed (if they aren't evenly distributed then the hull can be more hydrodynamic but the strengthening is less signifcant as some areas will receive more stress energy than others).

Other notes: as long as you're imagining this engineer's headache, you might want to consider actual dampeners that could reduce the impact force as perceived by the ship's crew...primarily on the underside of the ship where an ADCAP detonation will certainly be felt.

Otherwise, some damn good ideas in the hull.
Vastiva
30-07-2004, 06:50
Just from a purely technical viewpoint, some of the features mentioned there will NOT work.

- EMP shielding. In order to form an effective faraday cage, the rods set in the composite layer would have to be crossed at right angles and precisely spaced to block out specific frequencies of electromagnetic energy. Most cold war era faraday cages could not stand the EMP energy of a blast more than many miles away...anything closer overwhelmed the old faraday cages and would overwhelm any modern faraday cages. Additionally, EMP weapons can be (and are) tuned to produce EMPs at other frequencies (or even multiple frequencies concurrently) and so are not even minorly affected by faraday cages tuned for even a hertz or two in either direction...and with a wide range of bands most faraday-based protections are a hopeless waste of money and time and space. The use of fiberoptics and "analog" back-up systems is a good way of protecting against EM issues, as is the heavy conductive armoring of the ship itself, which will certainly dampen the EMP strength somewhat.

- Composite/steel structure 'bending' KE projectiles. Unless your enemy is stupid enough to use steel or iron KE penetrators...this won't work. The forces will favor a tungsten-carbide or DU or other similarly high density KE weapon against your steel bars. The bars will certainly offer some resistance to the KE weapons, but it will be more effective against blast weapons...as cobham armor is. The "path of least resistance" issue will cause the round to deflect somewhat, but if anything bends it will be your steel cross-bar insets.

- ERA: is probably limited to areas well above the corrosive sea water and is less effective at reacting to KE projectiles than to blast warheads...although it's very effective against many anti-tank styled warheads as well as conventional modern missile warheads. As far as the picturing of the ERA panels, if the ERA were designed like that it would be pretty bad at blocking enemy shots in any case, due to the angling...modern ERA is not the old blocky ERA of the first generation systems and generally is advanced enough to be set in hull-shape conforming packs that look like tiles rather than bulky (non aerodynamic) projections. I would recommend a quick google for the israeli "blazer" type ERA armoring that uses angled panels to increase ERA effectiveness.

- General armoring: One positive thing that isn't mentioned on the page (at least that I saw) is that the entire array has a slight slant to it, which effectively makes the armor much "thicker" than the depth of any of the armor panels. Since any round hitting the armoring straight-on would have to follow an angular path through the materials (relative to their orientation) the armor is 'deeper' when approached from the horizontal.

- "honeycomb" framework: from the illustration, it appears that the Doujin has more of a cubbyhole frame than a real, hexagonal-based honeycomb design. The strength and flexibility of hexagons would be a better bet than vertical and horizontal crossbeams making up the majority of the frame (as the picture would indicated). Vertical and horizontal supports for the decks themselves is certainly important, but a hexagonal structure would provide a significantly stronger internal frame structure.

- Quadkeel system: While this will protect against the effects of a modern shipkiller torpedo (ie, Mk 48 Mod 5/6 ADCAP), it will not do as well as you say. The most effective and modern US torpedos operate by generating not a vacuum beneath the target ship but rather by providing enough force to bodily lift many smaller naval vessels into the air, which then fall slightly only to catch the main force of the weapons blast, which cracks the entire hull. The force is enough to rip destroyer-sized vessels cleanly in two (As is seen here (http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_forces/gallery/slideshow_010202.shtml)). Frankly, any ship that floats will have structural damage from one or more Mk 48s going off...the difference is in survival, in which case the quadkeel system will improve its survivability by probably 5x...of course the hull itself may receive serious damage and the quadkeel system will reduce the hydrodynamic effectiveness of the hull if forces are really evenly distributed (if they aren't evenly distributed then the hull can be more hydrodynamic but the strengthening is less signifcant as some areas will receive more stress energy than others).

Other notes: as long as you're imagining this engineer's headache, you might want to consider actual dampeners that could reduce the impact force as perceived by the ship's crew...primarily on the underside of the ship where an ADCAP detonation will certainly be felt.

Otherwise, some damn good ideas in the hull.

Yep, ya gotta admit, Doujin is brilliant in design. I can't wait to see what comes off the drawing board when he gets to create RL designs...
IDF
30-07-2004, 07:35
this group can act now, that traitor attacked me when I tried to make peace with him, he doesn't even care I took back the trillion dollar offer

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=6662494#post6662494
Vastiva
30-07-2004, 08:44
IDF: I've already beat you to that one. I've had a Mach 12, 1400 mile ASCM with a 2,000 pound warhead for quite a while. I've also developed another missile recently that has a 4,000 pound warhead and a range improvement of 600 miles that has become my designated capship killer. Oh, and I have a battlecruiser designed around the use of these missiles that can fire over a thousand of the capship killers.

*scribbles more notes for later research projects*



Oh, and while you may be able to design a ship to defeat a Doujin, which I doubt given the lack of any naval design expertise in this group, the actual use against such a ship can be classed as a Bad Idea. Before Doujin started selling his Doujin class publicly, he signed several contracts with fellow UnAPS members that, in the end, would result in over 40 Doujin class ships being in the hands of one group of his allies, and this was all before Doujin went totally naval. Do any of you honestly believe you could take on that kind of naval power?

Uhm, the point - as I understand it - is to get an idea of how a Doujin-class could possibly be beaten. Just like there is a thread about the development of an anti-capital ship torpedo.

Research is research. Planning to blow up a bridge is not the same as doing it.
Vastiva
30-07-2004, 09:08
this group can act now, that traitor attacked me when I tried to make peace with him, he doesn't even care I took back the trillion dollar offer

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=6662494#post6662494

*looks at you over his glasses*

Well, so much for Doujin not starting hostilities.... now, a proven aggressor nation with a group of aggressor nations. Why? They fired the first shots. Words do nothing.

If you accept the presence of the behemoth, and accept the presence of said behemoth in your world, then you accept the consequences of actions such as putting a bounty on said behemoth.

"Reasonable" might have been - take the loss of the ships. Now you've got a war against unreasonable odds. I see much glass being made everywhere.
*shakes head*

Sorry, no, not getting involved in a shooting war. Or any other sort which does not involve my interests. Research and theory is one thing, that's another.
Shangia
30-07-2004, 09:21
I am launching my flleets to the mediteranean.
Scandavian States
30-07-2004, 13:42
There are several reasons why the nuclear attack is a no-go. First, there are several national leaders aboard the Doujin, and you simply can't kill off national leaders without explicit permission, this off-the-cuff shit doesn't work. Secondly, there are enough point defenses that those missiles aren't going to get through, at least the nuclear ones. Because of the ettiquete rule about no killing of important characters, he has to shoot those missiles down unless he wants the entire fiasco ignored. Third, you don't do stupid things like put bouties on ships belonging to nations infinitely more powerful than you unless you want to get your ass kicked, IDF is getting what he deserves.
Axis Nova
30-07-2004, 14:04
OOC: Point defenses are hardly 100% effective and on top of that, the sub-launched ones were launched at point-blank, pretty much. At the speed of such a missile, the target would only have a few seconds to react.

And a nuclear response is pretty much IDF's only way to go, considering how 'superior' the forces facing him are.

IDF sent people in good faith to improve relations, and in return Doujin TOOK THEM HOSTAGE AND ATTACKED IDF'S CAPITAL SHIPS.

What, you expected him to take this lying down when it's happening in his own backyard?

Give me a break.


Axis Nova
Scandavian States
30-07-2004, 14:08
That's the problem, how'd his SSGN get within point-blank range in the first place? And even if it did, there are ten times more point defense systems in range than there are nuclear missiles, half of them can miss by a mile and it wouldn't make a difference. And while I would certainly expect him to fight, the use of nuclear missiles right off signifies rather poor RP skill. Sometimes you just have to accept defeat.
Axis Nova
30-07-2004, 14:11
That's the problem, how'd his SSGN get within point-blank range in the first place? And even if it did, there are ten times more point defense systems in range than there are nuclear missiles, half of them can miss by a mile and it wouldn't make a difference. And while I would certainly expect him to fight, the use of nuclear missiles right off signifies rather poor RP skill. Sometimes you just have to accept defeat.

OOC: In this case, the use of nukes right off the bat is the only real good way for him to get in a hit. I'd do exactly the same thing in his place.

How else do you expect him to be able to hit such a fleet? Attacking all those carriers in one place with aircraft would be suicide and his navy obviously is inferior.

And I don't see IDF being defeated here. I see you assuming that IDF just 'has' to bend over for Doujin.

Axis Nova
Scandavian States
30-07-2004, 14:13
- Composite/steel structure 'bending' KE projectiles. Unless your enemy is stupid enough to use steel or iron KE penetrators...this won't work. The forces will favor a tungsten-carbide or DU or other similarly high density KE weapon against your steel bars. The bars will certainly offer some resistance to the KE weapons, but it will be more effective against blast weapons...as cobham armor is. The "path of least resistance" issue will cause the round to deflect somewhat, but if anything bends it will be your steel cross-bar insets.

[Who said anything about steel? AFAIK, there is very little to no steel in the design of the Doujin.]
IDF
30-07-2004, 16:42
That's the problem, how'd his SSGN get within point-blank range in the first place? And even if it did, there are ten times more point defense systems in range than there are nuclear missiles, half of them can miss by a mile and it wouldn't make a difference. And while I would certainly expect him to fight, the use of nuclear missiles right off signifies rather poor RP skill. Sometimes you just have to accept defeat.
the SSGNs were at point blank range because they were part of the parade a few miles away from the Doujin, the rest were 1,500 km north in IDF, well within the 2,000 km missile range
Vastiva
31-07-2004, 03:25
There are several reasons why the nuclear attack is a no-go. First, there are several national leaders aboard the Doujin, and you simply can't kill off national leaders without explicit permission, this off-the-cuff shit doesn't work.

Uhm, duh, War.


Secondly, there are enough point defenses that those missiles aren't going to get through, at least the nuclear ones. Because of the ettiquete rule about no killing of important characters, he has to shoot those missiles down unless he wants the entire fiasco ignored.

You and yours started the war without any sort of etiquette involved, so screaming for it now is meaningless. And your point defenses can't select out the nuclear weapons from the swarm, so that too is meaningless.


Third, you don't do stupid things like put bouties on ships belonging to nations infinitely more powerful than you unless you want to get your ass kicked, IDF is getting what he deserves.

Oh please.

A sensible reaction would have been to stick a Doujin in a port and blow everything to hell: "SEE THIS? WITHDRAW YOUR BOUNTY OR I'LL DO THIS TO EVERYTHING ELSE YOU OWN!"

Or be RL Israel and blow up some shipyards as a "disciplinary measure". The invitation and trap is gunky, has Doujin fire the first shot of what will be a war. Then you twink out with "Well my leader can't die".

The same etiquette rule would follow with "you can't capture leaders w/o permission". You don't follow the rules, dont try and hide behind them.

I could go on and on and on about whats horrible about the whole RP and the process behind your supernations and the building of a Doujin at all (how good is 1970s tech to modern day?) but it would be meaningless - no solve of anything in the doing.

How about you sit it at "the fleet blows up, leaders all die from the nuclear attack and fallout. Following this, OMP blows up the IDF capital in rebuttal in a conventional attack. The war is then over with no further loss of life on either side".

We could go on to how the use of the nuclear weapons at all starts killing off all population around the world...
Vastiva
31-07-2004, 03:30
That's the problem, how'd his SSGN get within point-blank range in the first place? And even if it did, there are ten times more point defense systems in range than there are nuclear missiles, half of them can miss by a mile and it wouldn't make a difference. And while I would certainly expect him to fight, the use of nuclear missiles right off signifies rather poor RP skill. Sometimes you just have to accept defeat.

Yes, YOU do.

You were nuked. Your ability to respond means all the defenses were ON at the time - which would be detectable. Wasn't said, didn't happen.

Rather then accepting a nuking, you're going on about how it couldn't possibly happen - feh. *BOOM* Happened. Ok, now what? Your coup resulted in a huge swat to your country, national leadership destroyed, a state of war occurs, and the entire world now sees you as warmongers.

You want to play god, believe you have the power to "try" anyone - in short, being drunk with power, you've been nuked. Rather then accept a "hip shot" is the worst case scenario for anyone, and most likely at least one bomb would get through, your own scenario has your own leaders - and the IDF leadership and many more - dying.

Your own damned fault. Suck it up, keep going and stop with the random crap about why this and that didn't happen. It's old and reeks of playground nonsense.
IDF
31-07-2004, 04:17
OOC: I did most of my counter-attack with conventional weapons and then I had you posting how the uber defense systems destroyed all the missiles, well that only backs up my reason for nuking the Doujin, a conventional attack would do nothing so nuclear weapons were the only option and justified when 200,000 people on your homeland were massacred.

I had a reason also to hate a Doujin class, in Mid June Doujin attacked a battleship of mine that was steaming to Haifa after a leisure cruise to Gibraltar. Doujin actually started this war then. DOn't give me this "you started it" stuff please.

This situation was my "Kobiyashi Maru". I decided in a lose-lose situation you should take as many with you as possible, Doujin got what he deserved.

So did you, you knew about this and should've realized how I would react since no other method would do damage. Your Emperor is dead and that may allow you to learn a valuable lesson here. My President was killed and that is too bad for me, I developed Jerry Reinsdorf for the last 3 months and now he is gone. Same for your Emperor.
Chardonay
31-07-2004, 08:09
I have to go with Axis Nova here... IDF's responce was logical. Impossible given that he didn't have enough time to prep the missiles, and the nukes were close enough that the Doujin would have been fried. SS, it's your fault for putting your national leaders in a warzone... if you knew this was going to happen, it is only good strategy to make sure you aren't in the line of fire. I didn't know, and when the attack hits I'll be losing senior military and civilian staff... and I blame Doujin for not warning me about the attack, rather than IDF for returning fire.

At the same time, I'm sympathetic with Doujin's reasons for making the attack... it's the exicution that was pitiful.
IDF
01-08-2004, 04:17
I have to go with Axis Nova here... IDF's responce was logical. Impossible given that he didn't have enough time to prep the missiles, and the nukes were close enough that the Doujin would have been fried. SS, it's your fault for putting your national leaders in a warzone... if you knew this was going to happen, it is only good strategy to make sure you aren't in the line of fire. I didn't know, and when the attack hits I'll be losing senior military and civilian staff... and I blame Doujin for not warning me about the attack, rather than IDF for returning fire.

At the same time, I'm sympathetic with Doujin's reasons for making the attack... it's the exicution that was pitiful.

Doujin's reasons were lies, he claimed I have supplied pirates and terrorists, I've only done that once and not willingly, I was blackmailed by Muslim Militants, I gave him ships if he would promise not to attack me, he did and I destroyed the ships.

Doujin said that pirates are using my Farragut DDGs, well I've sold production rights and sold 1,000s of that model. Some people sell a ship for 2nd hand use, that is how they got to pirates. If Doujin were held responsible for pirates using his ships he would be at war with every nations
Western Asia
01-08-2004, 04:58
[Who said anything about steel? AFAIK, there is very little to no steel in the design of the Doujin.]

OOC: Ummm, then what is the metal that he uses for his main armoring layer and for the composite/faraday layer? Superdense materials like tungsten and DU wouldn't work...and even several feet of aluminum isn't very strong armoring...so what exactly is being used for the main structural and armoring elements?

Vastiva,
RL israel hasn't blown up shipyards as "disciplinary" measures...it has blown up Arab passenger jets in Beirut and has destroyed enemy barracks, training camps, and nuclear reactors...it has even attacked enemy ships (syrian, I believe) to prevent further enemy naval activity...but no shipyards. :)
Vastiva
01-08-2004, 05:06
OOC: Ummm, then what is the metal that he uses for his main armoring layer and for the composite/faraday layer? Superdense materials like tungsten and DU wouldn't work...and even several feet of aluminum isn't very strong armoring...so what exactly is being used for the main structural and armoring elements?

Kryptonite! *laughs*



Vastiva,
RL israel hasn't blown up shipyards as "disciplinary" measures...it has blown up Arab passenger jets in Beirut and has destroyed enemy barracks, training camps, and nuclear reactors...it has even attacked enemy ships (syrian, I believe) to prevent further enemy naval activity...but no shipyards. :)

I realize this. The point is the disciplinary strike, and in this case, as the threat is against a ship, it sounded appropriate. A moot point though.
Western Asia
01-08-2004, 05:21
I realize this. The point is the disciplinary strike, and in this case, as the threat is against a ship, it sounded appropriate. A moot point though.
I know, i was playing dumb a bit...since shipyards are just about the only enemy facility that they haven't launched such an action against (mostly due to lack of targets, methinks).
Unum Veritas
01-08-2004, 18:38
OOC: I don't see what the fuss is about Doujin's RP, it was brilliant and should be respected as such rather than condemned as "cheap" or "deceitful". Hello, this is international politics; deceit is an everyday occurence. Besides, IDF should honestly have been smarter than this. One day he's forming an anti-Doujin alliance and offering a bounty for the sinking of the ship and the next day his nation's leadership is being invited to a conference on board one of the ships he was trying to sink. Come on... What did you expect?

And frankly, I'm all for continuing the RP (in a closed setting, with a set number of nations on each side) and accepting the losses from the nuclear attack. That, at least, would then give me perfect reason for demolishing every inch of IDF.

And there's another thing that he didn't consider when he launched the nukes...all the other countries in the area are not going to appreciate having the fallout that close to their borders and would probably retaliate against IDF in like kind.
Pogmo Thoin
01-08-2004, 19:11
[QUOTE=Western Asia]OOC: Ummm, then what is the metal that he uses for his main armoring layer and for the composite/faraday layer? Superdense materials like tungsten and DU wouldn't work...and even several feet of aluminum isn't very strong armoring...so what exactly is being used for the main structural and armoring elements?

My spies have figured out what they use in the place of Steel for the Ubermunch ship!
Doujin armor substance (http://www.cnn.com/US/9804/10/fringe/peep.science/)
Doujin
01-08-2004, 19:14
Doujin's reasons were lies, he claimed I have supplied pirates and terrorists, I've only done that once and not willingly, I was blackmailed by Muslim Militants, I gave him ships if he would promise not to attack me, he did and I destroyed the ships.

Doujin said that pirates are using my Farragut DDGs, well I've sold production rights and sold 1,000s of that model. Some people sell a ship for 2nd hand use, that is how they got to pirates. If Doujin were held responsible for pirates using his ships he would be at war with every nations

Thing is, I restrict the sale of my ships. I don't just go "yeah whatever", well I do but after checking out wether or not the people get the ships.
Doujin
01-08-2004, 19:43
OOC: I did most of my counter-attack with conventional weapons and then I had you posting how the uber defense systems destroyed all the missiles, well that only backs up my reason for nuking the Doujin, a conventional attack would do nothing so nuclear weapons were the only option and justified when 200,000 people on your homeland were massacred.

I had a reason also to hate a Doujin class, in Mid June Doujin attacked a battleship of mine that was steaming to Haifa after a leisure cruise to Gibraltar. Doujin actually started this war then. DOn't give me this "you started it" stuff please.

This situation was my "Kobiyashi Maru". I decided in a lose-lose situation you should take as many with you as possible, Doujin got what he deserved.

So did you, you knew about this and should've realized how I would react since no other method would do damage. Your Emperor is dead and that may allow you to learn a valuable lesson here. My President was killed and that is too bad for me, I developed Jerry Reinsdorf for the last 3 months and now he is gone. Same for your Emperor.

If you had 200,000 citizens on vessels of war, the fact they died is your fault. And you fired strategic nuclear weapons at me, and thus if we continue it on a nuclaer level you will get a strategic nuclear response.

And as far as claiming my reasons were lies, way to go - you are being held directly responsible for pirates getting hold of your ships. If they came from other sources, it doesn't matter - you gave those sources the ability to produce and sell those ships / give away those ships. However, I do remember seeing at least 3-4 documented cases of you selling ships to pirate nations that were not Muslim Militants.

IDF's President was not taken hostage, he was arrested for aiding and abiding Pirates and other fringe organizations. He would have been tried by a joint court of the people of IDF and the Organization of Maritime Powers to make sure a fair and mostly unbiased trial takes place. Even Whittier has said that his response was wrong.

I'm fully prepared to continue this and accept the nuclear attack, but it would result in full annihalation of IDF - a full strategic nuclear response would be the response of the Doujin military. It's up to IDF, I gave him a choice.
IDF
01-08-2004, 23:11
If you had 200,000 citizens on vessels of war, the fact they died is your fault. And you fired strategic nuclear weapons at me, and thus if we continue it on a nuclaer level you will get a strategic nuclear response.

And as far as claiming my reasons were lies, way to go - you are being held directly responsible for pirates getting hold of your ships. If they came from other sources, it doesn't matter - you gave those sources the ability to produce and sell those ships / give away those ships. However, I do remember seeing at least 3-4 documented cases of you selling ships to pirate nations that were not Muslim Militants.

IDF's President was not taken hostage, he was arrested for aiding and abiding Pirates and other fringe organizations. He would have been tried by a joint court of the people of IDF and the Organization of Maritime Powers to make sure a fair and mostly unbiased trial takes place. Even Whittier has said that his response was wrong.

I'm fully prepared to continue this and accept the nuclear attack, but it would result in full annihalation of IDF - a full strategic nuclear response would be the response of the Doujin military. It's up to IDF, I gave him a choice.


My civilians weren't on the ships, but died from when Unum Veritas attacked IDF's mainland. I want to know what pirate nations used my ships. Any nation that has bought ships will eventually sell them to 2nd hand use when no longer usefull in their navy. I've bought ships that way and am sure pirate nations got my ships that way, show me the threads so I can find out what buyer of mine is doing this.

My President was never captured as that thread never existed based on everyone's view. President Jerry Reinsdorf is currently at his Jerusalem home. I think I have every reason to be against you, you did attack my battleship for no reason in mid-June when I was in the standard Mediterranean shipping lanes. Doujin seems to be a control freak of the seas and IDF will continue to oppose his strength not by fighting, but by keeping him in check with allies on our side just to make sure he doesn't get too powerful
Doujin
01-08-2004, 23:22
My civilians weren't on the ships, but died from when Unum Veritas attacked IDF's mainland. I want to know what pirate nations used my ships. Any nation that has bought ships will eventually sell them to 2nd hand use when no longer usefull in their navy. I've bought ships that way and am sure pirate nations got my ships that way, show me the threads so I can find out what buyer of mine is doing this.

My President was never captured as that thread never existed based on everyone's view. President Jerry Reinsdorf is currently at his Jerusalem home. I think I have every reason to be against you, you did attack my battleship for no reason in mid-June when I was in the standard Mediterranean shipping lanes. Doujin seems to be a control freak of the seas and IDF will continue to oppose his strength not by fighting, but by keeping him in check with allies on our side just to make sure he doesn't get too powerful

I have more allies than you outright.. and you keep saying that I killed 200,000 civilians. And yes I attacked a Battleship because you wanted me to, or do you not remember that telegram? Your ship entered the military exclusion zone that I hold around all warships. Warnings are sent out as people approach it, and if they enter it then they are sunk. *shrug*
IDF
01-08-2004, 23:24
I have more allies than you outright.. and you keep saying that I killed 200,000 civilians. And yes I attacked a Battleship because you wanted me to, or do you not remember that telegram? Your ship entered the military exclusion zone that I hold around all warships. Warnings are sent out as people approach it, and if they enter it then they are sunk. *shrug*

lets just forget this and move on Doujin, forget the whole attack on me and my response too
Doujin
01-08-2004, 23:25
You want names? Ok. People 0963, X-F, Muslim Militants (Just off the top of my head) - there were several other instances reported with Farragut Class ships, but because of the server switch the links don't work.
The Wickit Klownz
01-08-2004, 23:49
Use the search option, then, Doujin...
Doujin
02-08-2004, 00:01
Use the search option, then, Doujin...

If I had the names of them, I would - but many instances are just links, a couple notes - like whats going on, and all but two mention farragut class ships.
Unum Veritas
02-08-2004, 01:59
lets just forget this and move on Doujin, forget the whole attack on me and my response too
Why not accept your response and continue the RP in a closed thread? Me, Doujin, and maybe one other nation and you and a few nations? It started off as a creative RP and it could turn into a really good one.
IDF
02-08-2004, 02:06
You want names? Ok. People 0963, X-F, Muslim Militants (Just off the top of my head) - there were several other instances reported with Farragut Class ships, but because of the server switch the links don't work.

I recall People 0963, but I sold to him before he made his attacks, he became a pirate after the sale, I don't recall X-F and if he did indeed have my ships they were sold to him by someone else who bought off of me. And MM blackmailed me with terrorism, he never attacked anyone with the ships except me before they were destroyed by me, hardly a fair example.
IDF
02-08-2004, 02:07
Why not accept your response and continue the RP in a closed thread? Me, Doujin, and maybe one other nation and you and a few nations? It started off as a creative RP and it could turn into a really good one.
I'll think about it, but a rule would be no Dreadnoughts
Doujin
02-08-2004, 02:25
I recall People 0963, but I sold to him before he made his attacks, he became a pirate after the sale, I don't recall X-F and if he did indeed have my ships they were sold to him by someone else who bought off of me. And MM blackmailed me with terrorism, he never attacked anyone with the ships except me before they were destroyed by me, hardly a fair example.

X-F bought the ships off of you, I saw the thread myself.
IDF
02-08-2004, 02:31
X-F bought the ships off of you, I saw the thread myself.
I don't recall selling to him, I know he used some ships, but I don't remember selling to him.
Unum Veritas
02-08-2004, 02:52
I'll think about it, but a rule would be no Dreadnoughts

Heck, the biggest thing I operate is an Iowa class so that's no big deal to me. Doujin has already suggested that rule himself. I do think it would look better for everyone if we finished it rather than retconning.
IDF
02-08-2004, 02:54
Heck, the biggest thing I operate is an Iowa class so that's no big deal to me. Doujin has already suggested that rule himself. I do think it would look better for everyone if we finished it rather than retconning.
I would retract the nuclear thing to make this a good old conventional war too.

My largest BB I'd use is the Arizona (a ship slightly larger than a Nimitz)

Another rule is that nothing, not even a trial or arrest of my President. According to your ally Scandinavian States you can't do anything to a national leader without asking 1st and I deny anything happening to President Reinsdorf.

http://images.forbes.com/media/magazines/forbes/2003/0428/Jerry_Reinsdorf.jpg
"Why do you want to harm me Jerry Reinsdorf? I'm just an out of place politico who ought to be back to my job owning the Chicago White Sox and Bulls, except I was exiled for destroying the best basketball team in history when I scared MJ, Pippen, ROdman, and Phil Jackson out of town. Then Sox fans attacked me for being a cheap ass and killing their 2004 playoff chances when I didn't get Nomar or RJ."
Unum Veritas
02-08-2004, 02:56
I would retract the nuclear thing to make this a good old conventional war too.

My largest BB I'd use is the Arizona (a ship slightly larger than a Nimitz)

Well, that's up to you. I'll take the nuke damage if you want (and probably not respond with nukes right off the bat)...its just your choice.
IDF
02-08-2004, 03:01
Well, that's up to you. I'll take the nuke damage if you want (and probably not respond with nukes right off the bat)...its just your choice.
I only used nukes because of the dreadnoughts, but if they are not there I don't need to use nukes, I'll think about it, but still prefer retconning the RP as I see your reasoning flawed behind it