NationStates Jolt Archive

Appears to be a shift in thinking on Cuba from the Obama administration. US lawmakers met with the Castro brothers in Cuba.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/04/07/castro.black.caucus/index.html

Do you think it's time to end the embargo by the US? If not state your case at why it should stay in place. Discuss....

i think it was never time for it to have been created. ending it is LOOOOONG overdue.

having ever had it is nothing but extremely immature economic and idiological fanatacism.

It should end when he pays us for the nationalized US property + intrest.

i think it was never time for it to have been created. ending it is LOOOOONG overdue.

having ever had it is nothing but extremely immature economic and idiological fanatacism.

At the time there should have been an invasion however now knowing history it wouldn't have been a good idea at the time. With that said the Embargo is a Cold War relic that has outlasted it's usefulness.

It should end when he pays us for the nationalized US property + intrest.

That won't happen. I suggest let it go and start fresh. Flood him with the Capitalist American dollars and it will be game over I think.

Yes, it should.

As much as I oppose the nationalization of American properties, hey, that's the risk you take when you invest in a foreign country.

As for the topic: Yes, definitely. I hate Castro with every fiber of my being, but there is no reason why we shouldn't trade with Cuba. If it were within my power to do so, I would:

1) Immediately end the embargo.
2) Immediately restore full diplomatic relations.
3) Begin cultural exchanges between the two countries.

That won't happen. I suggest let it go and start fresh. Flood him with the Capitalist American dollars and it will be game over I think.

Then no need to stop it. Cuba would gain a massive amount from trade with us, we gain almost nothing from trade with Cuba.

Then no need to stop it. Cuba would gain a massive amount from trade with us, we gain almost nothing from trade with Cuba.

The whole nation really needs an upgrade. It would mean business for American business.

At the time there should have been an invasion however now knowing history it wouldn't have been a good idea at the time. With that said the Embargo is a Cold War relic that has outlasted it's usefulness.

the cold war itself was illogical from jump. nothing but eisenhour's politics. and yes, i not only know the history, i was alive at the time. as for nationalization, that is a legitimate risk to corporatocracy of colonizing other nation's resources. hershey never NEEDED to be there in the first place, let alone to keep the dictator batista in power. granted they built a nice little trolly line. but that's the only positive thing that can be said for it.

Then no need to stop it. Cuba would gain a massive amount from trade with us, we gain almost nothing from trade with Cuba.

Sugar? Cigars? Rum?

Hardly "nothing." :p

The whole nation really needs an upgrade. It would mean business for American business.

Percentage wise how much ???
I doubt we will be able to generate that many jobs from trade with Cuba.
They would become yet another country we run a trade deficit with.

the cold war itself was illogical from jump. nothing but eisenhour's politics.

Illogical yes however I think it did serve a greater purpose. 1) No nuclear war. 2) Scientific advancement

The downsides were proxy wars and millions dead.

Sugar? Cigars? Rum?

Hardly "nothing." :p

We get 2 out of the 3 from elsewhere in Latin America.

End the freaking embargo. It was a total fuckup by Kennedy that should have been removed long ago, but wasn't.

Percentage wise how much ???
I doubt we will be able to generate that many jobs from trade with Cuba.
They would become yet another country we run a trade deficit with.

What is Cuba going to trade with the US besides taking tourism dollars away from the Carib and Mexico?

So we want to make them more capatalistic by NOT trading with them? What a fucked up policy.

Absolutely. I believe that the blocade has only served to keep Castro in power. The embargo should gradually be lifted.

Absolutely. I believe that the blocade has only served to keep Castro in power. The embargo should gradually be lifted.

Perhaps that and it's been going on for too long, don't you think?

Absolutely. I believe that the blocade has only served to keep Castro in power. The embargo should gradually be lifted.

As opposed to a sudden complete lifting of the embargo and normalizing? Why wait?

Illogical yes however I think it did serve a greater purpose. 1) No nuclear war. 2) Scientific advancement

The downsides were proxy wars and millions dead.

i'm far from convinced (the cold war) can legitimately be credited with 1 or 2, nor that any supposed benefit to them was worth to the same degree, that downside. but i do appreciate the acknowledgment of it.

Absolutely. I believe that the blocade has only served to keep Castro in power. The embargo should gradually be lifted.

Embargo, not blockade. There is a difference.

And Conservative Morality, Eisenhower imposed the embargo.

the embargo hasn't really done much to weaken Castro anyway.


also,inb4 Miami Shores

the cold war itself was illogical from jump. nothing but eisenhour's politics. Truman and squashing socialist movements in Greek and Turkey had nothing to do with it??
and yes, i not only know the history, i was alive at the time. as for nationalization, that is a legitimate risk to corporatocracy of colonizing other nation's resources. If thats what you call buying things and providing jobs and income ok, those governments need to be paid for seizure of goods. hershey never NEEDED to be there in the first place, let alone to keep the dictator batista in power. granted they built a nice little trolly line. but that's the only positive thing that can be said for it.

Don't forget provided jobs, and revenue from taxes which was most of their "support" for Batista.

Embargo, not blockade. There is a difference.

And Conservative Morality, Eisenhower imposed the embargo.

Wrong. Cuban Embargo started in '62, Kennedy's term. Before that was just small restrictions, arms trade, I believe it was. Wasn't an Embargo until Kennedy. His whole presidency was one major fuck-up, and this was just one notable example.

I stand corrected.

That being said My class tomorrow has a guest speaker who was a political Prisoner under Castro. (and is now a US Poli Sci professor). Anyone have any good questions I should ask him ?

As a Cuban-American, ending the embargo is a HORRIBLE idea. I have relatives in Cuba, and they benefit neither way we make it. Because you liberals have to understand this, all trading goods that go to Cuba, dont go to the people, it goes right to Castro!! Which means that people get very little food even with trading, and are still on ration books, so trading with cuba only means we feed into it's misery!!

That being said My class tomorrow has a guest speaker who was a political Prisoner under Castro. (and is now a US Poli Sci professor). Anyone have any good questions I should ask him ?

"If a chicken had lips, could it whistle?"

"If a chicken had lips, could it whistle?"

That was my biology thesis. The answer is yes I proved it after attaching lips to a chicken. Then I got banned from taking any more biology classes.

As a Cuban-American, ending the embargo is a HORRIBLE idea. I have relatives in Cuba, and they benefit neither way we make it. Because you liberals have to understand this, all trading goods that go to Cuba, dont go to the people, it goes right to Castro!! Which means that people get very little food even with trading, and are still on ration books, so trading with cuba only means we feed into it's misery!!

by continuing the embargo, you're contributing to their suffering

by continuing the embargo, you're contributing to their suffering

By not paying American corporations for the land they had stolen the Castro family is increasing the suffering of Cubans.

That was my biology thesis. The answer is yes I proved it after attaching lips to a chicken. Then I got banned from taking any more biology classes.

Rofl! Greedy, the Mad Scientist!:D

not a chance, my relatives are hungry either way, we dont trade with them, food and rations stay the same, we trade, Castro gets money, food and rations stay the same.

God no. Then cigar quality would collapse.

There is really no need for the United States to lift their embargo on Cuba as it doesn't prevent Cuba from finding other trading partners. Besides which, lifting the embargo risks losing the cuban exiles votes in the next election year.

thats 100% true with losing the votes, see the idea of lifting the embargo is good considering we want them to have food, but for those of you who arent familiar with the inside of a communist regime, its counter-productive to that goal.

Rofl! Greedy, the Mad Scientist!:D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/Mad_scientist_transparent_background.svg/641px-Mad_scientist_transparent_background.svg.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/Mad_scientist_transparent_background.svg/641px-Mad_scientist_transparent_background.svg.png

That would such an awesome avatar for him.:hail:

That would such an awesome avatar for him.:hail:

scale it down and i will use it.

About time. Seriously US, open up.

On another note, you have no idea how much the last few months have done to restore the US's image to the rest of the world. Prompt action to the GFC, taking up the climate change challenge, foreign policy decisions which make sense, all those states legalising gay marriage, a leader who is sensible, intelligent, and who considers his responses when questioned... yep, you guys are on a roll here.

Appears to be a shift in thinking on Cuba from the Obama administration. US lawmakers met with the Castro brothers in Cuba.



Do you think it's time to end the embargo by the US? If not state your case at why it should stay in place. Discuss....

It is certainly time to end the embargo.

Seriously, the Cold War is over! End the Embargo...

We've been trading with PRC for what, 30-40 Years!? This double standard has to stop! I want Quality Cigars!

Seriously, the Cold War is over! End the Embargo...

We've been trading with PRC for what, 30-40 Years!? This double standard has to stop! I want Quality Cigars!

Hear hear!

Hurray for Obama!

Hurray for Obama!

This wasn't Obama this was a few members of the black caucus.
Are you trying to say black politicians all look alike ?

This wasn't Obama this was a few members of the black caucus.
Are you trying to say black politicians all look alike ?

That avatar, really. It just screams you. :D

That avatar, really. It just screams you. :D

you need a crazy Avatar as well.

This wasn't Obama this was a few members of the black caucus.
Are you trying to say black politicians all look alike ?

It is his administration. Bush takes all the blame for his administration, can not Obama receive the credit for his own?

you need a crazy Avatar as well.

You think? Well, LG's getting his. :p

you need a crazy Avatar as well.

I do miss the Cat-Ears, :p

It is his administration. Bush takes all the blame for his administration, can not Obama receive the credit for his own?

Members of Congress are not part of the president's administration.

I do miss the Cat-Ears, :p

i was thinking she needs a cat bread avatar

Members of Congress are not part of the president's administration.

I am speaking on the assumption that Obama will eventually end the embargo. The citizens of Cuba have done nothing to us.

I am speaking on the assumption that Obama will eventually end the embargo. The citizens of Cuba have done nothing to us.

They sit on land that belongs to our companies.

They sit on land that belongs to our companies.

They should not have to starve for it.

They should not have to starve for it.

Then they can feed themselves, or pay us for the land.

Then they can feed themselves, or pay us for the land.

They have no money. Many are the descendants of those who took the land; how much do you pay the Mexicans (or Native Americans if you prefer) for living in Texas?

...Do not answer that. :tongue:

But, just think of the profits to be made from all the people wanting Working Vehicles, and WalMart?

and its just sitting there, ripe for the picking!

The CIA should try to off Castro atleast one last time before he kicks it.

You know, for the lulz.

They have no money. Many are the descendants of those who took the land; how much do you pay the Mexicans (or Native Americans if you prefer) for living in Texas?

...Do not answer that. :tongue:

18,250,000(about 500,000,000 today) was paid at the conclusion of the Mexican American war. Along with that the US assumed Mexico's Debt of 3.25 million (about 100,000 today).
so 600 million is your answer.

The CIA should try to off Castro atleast one last time before he kicks it.

You know, for the lulz.

Alas! we cannot, due to a certain agreement we made in the 60's.

Ending the embargo would show the world that the US is soft on communism. This is a horrible idea.

Alas! we cannot, due to a certain agreement we made in the 60's.
Did that stop the CIA from continuing trying?

Ending the embargo would show the world that the US is soft on communism. This is a horrible idea.

What the fuck does the U.S. care about communism anymore? Did you not get Nixon's memo that the Soviet Union threatened America, and the not the communist ideology?

Ending the embargo would show the world that the US is soft on communism. This is a horrible idea.

lmao, I think youre joking, cause if all the other Commie countries we trade with doesnt show that, Idk what does...

Not to mention, why do we need to be hard on Communism after the Cold War has ended, there is no USSR anymore....

The CIA should try to off Castro atleast one last time before he kicks it.

You know, for the lulz.

Best casus belli (sp?) ever. :p

Alas! we cannot, due to a certain agreement we made in the 60's.

the agreement was to not overthrow the government. Castro is no long head of state all bets are off.
funny thing is if we had not tried to poison his cigars he might not have given up smoking and been dead by now.

Did that stop the CIA from continuing trying?

No, until Nixon put the agreement in writing.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/2/23/Newsphoto-RichardHelms.jpg

Best casus belli (sp?) ever. :p
Wouldn't be the first time:

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/inside_jokes/Lulz.jpg

No, until Nixon put the agreement in writing.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/2/23/Newsphoto-RichardHelms.jpg
Greed and Death has come to my aid with facts! Thus, The Hunt For Red Castro begins!
the agreement was to not overthrow the government. Castro is no long head of state all bets are off.

Appears to be a shift in thinking on Cuba from the Obama administration. US lawmakers met with the Castro brothers in Cuba.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/04/07/castro.black.caucus/index.html

Do you think it's time to end the embargo by the US? If not state your case at why it should stay in place. Discuss....
Yes, by all means we should prop up their economy with our dollars. I'm sure that Cuban Pesos are probably one of the few currencies worth less than our Dollar.

Greed and Death has come to my aid with facts! Thus, The Hunt For Red Castro begins!

Why don't we just declare open season on him and let the red necks get after him.

Why don't we just declare open season on him and let the red necks get after him.
They can't travel to Cuba.

Why don't we just declare open season on him and let the red necks get after him.

I believe homosexuals would have greater desire to kill him.

They can't travel to Cuba.

Allow it with hunting permits instead of passports. Along with a warning to not get caught by the Cubans.

wouldn't be the first time:

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/inside_jokes/lulz.jpg

lol!

I believe homosexuals would have greater desire to kill him.

The rednecks would risk life and limb just to have a stuffed Castro back home.

The rednecks would risk life and limb just to have a stuffed Castro back home.

*laughs her bum off*

I like it, G&D. I can see it now.

Just when you thought it was safe to be a communist revolutionary despot of a banana republic . . .
*BAM* . . . Bay of Pigs II. This time, with rednecks.

"'Jimmy bob, git yer shotty, we got us sum huntin' tah do."

"Billy ray, who we goin' after?"

"That thur Comnus sonna bitch, Casper."

"Let's git'em!"

I like it, G&D. I can see it now.

Just when you thought it was safe to be a communist revolutionary despot of a banana republic . . .
*BAM* . . . Bay of Pigs II. This time, with rednecks.

Ay ay ay! LOL! LOL! Republica bananera y todo! LOL!

Ay ay ay! LOL! LOL! Republica bananera y todo! LOL!
I try, my spanish sweetheart. I try. :p
:D

I try, my spanish sweetheart. I try. :p
:D

I know, I know sweetie.:wink:

The world would be far more amusing if I were president. The Rednecks are an resource we should be using to avoid getting our hands dirty directly. Not hidden like the republicans or mocked at by the democrats.

Then they can feed themselves, or pay us for the land.

Didn't those American companies under-report their assets, thus cheating the Cuban government out of owed taxes?

The world would be far more amusing if I were president. The Rednecks are an resource we should be using to avoid getting our hands dirty directly. Not hidden like the republicans or mocked at by the democrats.

Alas! I will never vote for an anarchist to run the government.

Didn't those American companies under-report their assets, thus cheating the Cuban government out of owed taxes?

That was actually the Guatemalans, the issue came up because the new president guy offered payment at the value they had been claiming. To which the United fruit declared the land was more valuable.

Alas! I will never vote for an anarchist to run the government.

That's the beauty of anarchy you don't have to vote. As long as the guys throwing petrol bombs everywhere feel its cool then we issues the hunting licenses at my advice.

That's the beauty of anarchy you don't have to vote. As long as the guys throwing petrol bombs everywhere feel its cool then we issues the hunting licenses at my advice.

I suck at throwing. :(

I suck at throwing. :(

Anyways we don't like Castro cause he is communist so we will drop off some petrol throwers.

Seriously, the Cold War is over! End the Embargo...

We've been trading with PRC for what, 30-40 Years!? This double standard has to stop! I want Quality Cigars!

Absolutely brilliant.....NOT.

All that trade with the PRC has done is enabled them to get stronger for the inevitable conflict between them and the United States, a conflict that as each day goes by, they are more likely to win.

We should not lift the embargo on Cuba until they get rid of Communism, and we should get much tougher on Cuba until they get rid of Communism.

Anyways we don't like Castro cause he is communist so we will drop off some petrol throwers.

http://api.ning.com/files/NbYpJ5Z3N8ce5XM*XywGlt0glORU7gPc6SKHWeQX6rweAr97EEFW*QCNTB3Ch91W24VdayR5NTrMqVRIXo5nF-7ueYvuSgY3/CircleA_red_star_text.png

http://api.ning.com/files/NbYpJ5Z3N8ce5XM*XywGlt0glORU7gPc6SKHWeQX6rweAr97EEFW*QCNTB3Ch91W24VdayR5NTrMqVRIXo5nF-7ueYvuSgY3/CircleA_red_star_text.png

Those are communal anarchist. I am a corporate anarchist.

Those are communal anarchist. I am a corporate anarchist.

And an American. Bad bad combination, mate.:eek2:

And an American. Bad bad combination, mate.:eek2:

buy your insurance or you don't get police protection.

Absolutely brilliant.....NOT.

All that trade with the PRC has done is enabled them to get stronger for the inevitable conflict between them and the United States, a conflict that as each day goes by, they are more likely to win.

We should not lift the embargo on Cuba until they get rid of Communism, and we should get much tougher on Cuba until they get rid of Communism.

Communism is not, and never was, a problem for the United States.

Communist is not, and never was, a problem for the United States.

Yeah for the most part even the poor had the common sense to avoid communism here.

Those are communal anarchist. I am a corporate anarchist.

You both propose the abolition of government. What your views are after that is pointless, because there is no enforcing of views.

You both propose the abolition of government. What your views are after that is pointless, because there is no enforcing of views.

the difference is we don't abolish private property. Security services would be paid for or part of employment contracts.

Communism is not, and never was, a problem for the United States.

Communism is about as un-American as an Iranian militant taking a shit on the American flag while eating a roasted bald eagle leg and simultaneously reading the Koran.

the difference is we don't abolish private property. Security services would be paid for or part of employment contracts.
There is no government to enforce property rights. In other words you support gangs controlling turf. Might makes right. The man with the biggest gun wins. Barbarianism. Yay, let's bring back civilization 8000 years!

Absolutely brilliant.....NOT.

All that trade with the PRC has done is enabled them to get stronger for the inevitable conflict between them and the United States, a conflict that as each day goes by, they are more likely to win.

We should not lift the embargo on Cuba until they get rid of Communism, and we should get much tougher on Cuba until they get rid of Communism.

Yeah...Right...

Um, who buys, and pays for all China's shit? The United States of America, if we fall they fall, all their people are unemployed, and the whole country goes bankrupt...

I find the whole Idea of a War with China to be Ludicrous, they need us to keep em afloat...

The idea that opening trade relations with China pushed them closer to war with us is simply Made of Fail...If anything, it strengthened our leverage within their country, since we pay all their workers...

Not to mention, this embargo isnt stopping Communism in Cuba, it hasnt and it wont, itd be much preferable to get a similar situation in Cuba where we have all the economic leverage within the country, and it could possibly open up Debt Selling opportunities in the future...

Communism is about as un-American as an Iranian militant taking a shit on the American flag while eating a roasted bald eagle leg and simultaneously reading the Koran.

Can I sig that?

Can I sig that?

With pleasure, good sir. :p

Communism is about as un-American as an Iranian militant taking a shit on the American flag while eating a roasted bald eagle leg and simultaneously reading the Koran.

"UN-AMERICAN, adj. Wicked, intolerable, heathenish."

-The Devil's Dictionary.

Shall we embargo China, then?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_M5mQhY1RgcI/SJ288jp5aAI/AAAAAAAAA8I/yaCa4W2eK_8/s400/nixon_mao.jpg

the difference is we don't abolish private property. Security services would be paid for or part of employment contracts.

After the government is demolished, a point of view on property is pointless.

That was actually the Guatemalans, the issue came up because the new president guy offered payment at the value they had been claiming. To which the United fruit declared the land was more valuable.

Well, I can hardly see why United Fruit should get anything then. Tax evasion usually gets your assets seized in most countries.

Well, I can hardly see why United Fruit should get anything then. Tax evasion usually gets your assets seized in most countries.

The seized with out trial. And the government of Guatemala was overthrown by the CIA. Nixon even visited and found communist propaganda in the capitol to justify the overthrow.

Besides Tax evasion is an honorable profession these days anyways.

Besides Tax evasion is an honorable profession these days anyways.

Only if you can get away with it. United Fruit was caught, thereby that makes them scum who don't deserve to keep the assets they lost.

Only if you can get away with it. United Fruit was caught, thereby that makes them scum who don't deserve to keep the assets they lost.

They still got away with it. They overthrew the government with CIA help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixxgeCrB1ic&feature=related

Nixon came and gave a good speech.

The seized with out trial. And the government of Guatemala was overthrown by the CIA. Nixon even visited and found communist propaganda in the capitol to justify the overthrow.

The overthrow wasn't justified. Arbenz posed no threat to us.

Besides Tax evasion is an honorable profession these days anyways.

It's always been an honorable profession.

They still got away with it.

They got caught. Otherwise we wouldn't know about it. That still makes them scum.

The overthrow wasn't justified. Arbenz posed no threat to us.



It's always been an honorable profession.

He posed a threat to United fruit. Which is only a word away from United States.

They got caught. Otherwise we wouldn't know about it. That still makes them scum.

but they didn't have to pay, which makes getting to rub it in everyone noses so much better.

He posed a threat to United fruit. Which is only a word away from United States.

United Fruit's problem, not the US's. And nothing justifies a coup that led to decades of dictatorship, corruption, civil war, and economic mismanagement, which have left Guatemala one of the poorest, least developed, and unstable countries in the hemisphere. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands who died during the civil war...

Yeah...Right...

Um, who buys, and pays for all China's shit? The United States of America, if we fall they fall, all their people are unemployed, and the whole country goes bankrupt...

I find the whole Idea of a War with China to be Ludicrous, they need us to keep em afloat...

The idea that opening trade relations with China pushed them closer to war with us is simply Made of Fail...If anything, it strengthened our leverage within their country, since we pay all their workers...

Not to mention, this embargo isnt stopping Communism in Cuba, it hasnt and it wont, itd be much preferable to get a similar situation in Cuba where we have all the economic leverage within the country, and it could possibly open up Debt Selling opportunities in the future...

Skallvia, by building up their economy, we in the West have helped the Chinese get the funds that are necessary for them to build up their armed forces and make them a much greater threat than they were before.

It doesn't matter if there are trade relations, the Chinese are still Communist and so are still inherently opposed to Capitalism; when they went to the existing model three decades ago, it wasn't a rejection of Communism, but just a step back.

Let us not forget that infamous quote from Lenin; the last capitalist will sell the noose that he is going to be hanged with. We are seeing the noose to the Chinese that we are going to be hanged with.

The devotion of the Chinese to Marxism-Leninism is rhetorical, and nothing more. They are no longer the radicals they once were. They are now more pragmatic than anything. They are also smart enough to know that a war between the U.S. would be mutually catastrophic, and would benefit no one.

United Fruit's problem, not the US's. And nothing justifies a coup that led to decades of dictatorship, corruption, civil war, and economic mismanagement, which have left Guatemala one of the poorest, least developed, and unstable countries in the hemisphere. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands who died during the civil war...

no the civil war precursor came after a different Coup(and 3 dictators later), also had a lot to do with United fruit and US interest leaving. And a bunch of Mexican drug cartels trying to set up business(and take over the government) there in the 1970's

no the civil war precursor came after a different Coup(and 3 dictators later), also had a lot to do with United fruit and US interest leaving. And a bunch of Mexican drug cartels trying to set up business(and take over the government) there in the 1970's

The first coup led to those events. And even if it hadn't, it still wouldn't have been justified.

The first coup led to those events. And even if it hadn't, it still wouldn't have been justified.

"Justified"? Whom are we worried about doing justice to, communist governments or their peoples?

Skallvia, by building up their economy, we in the West have helped the Chinese get the funds that are necessary for them to build up their armed forces and make them a much greater threat than they were before, etc etc etc

That's all well and good, but you fail to note that the Chinese have absolutely no reason to go to war with the US, and plenty of reasons not to. That's assuming the Chinese could compete with them anyway, which they can't. The US military is so ridiculously powerful that it would wipe the floor with any country which tried to attack it.

The first coup led to those events. And even if it hadn't, it still wouldn't have been justified.

And technically there was a democratic election.

United fruit left because the drug traffic coming up from Columbia and going through Mexico to the US, was making the area unstable and unprofitable. With the sudden drop in revenues from Untied fruit leaving the military fell apart and Mexican drug lords moved in.

Not all of Latin America's problems are from the US. Just like 1 out of 3.

Moral of the story if a company is big enough it makes up 50+% of the country's GDP dont piss them off.

That's all well and good, but you fail to note that the Chinese have absolutely no reason to go to war with the US, and plenty of reasons not to. That's assuming the Chinese could compete with them anyway, which they can't. The US military is so ridiculously powerful that it would wipe the floor with any country which tried to attack it.

Taiwan ???
Korea ?

End it. It's about time we melted the ice between Cuba and US. The rest of the world will begin to love us again if we do.

We've been selling them foodstuffs for years, propping up the Cuban government, and protecting it from internal revolution, while giving the Brothers Castro the powerful tool of the image of the "Big Bad", reinforced in the form of the embargo. It's time we lift the embargo to pull this undergirding justification for the dictatorial rule, and give Cuban democrats a chance to argue that the emergency is over, it's time to not beat up dissidents anymore.

We've been selling them foodstuffs for years, propping up the Cuban government, and protecting it from internal revolution, while giving the Brothers Castro the powerful tool of the image of the "Big Bad", reinforced in the form of the embargo. It's time we lift the embargo to pull this undergirding justification for the dictatorial rule, and give Cuban democrats a chance to argue that the emergency is over, it's time to not beat up dissidents anymore.

Flood them with freedom to buy American. :)

Flood them with freedom to buy American. :)

Or dump a bunch of corn on their market for a few years so no one farms, then have the companies start trading to them at jacked up prices.

Flood them with freedom to buy American. :)

I'm of the opinion that we should dump eighties tech all over them. Betamax, El Camino's, Apple II's, Modems where you actually have to put a telephone in place and NES's.

I'm of the opinion that we should dump eighties tech all over them. Betamax, El Camino's, Apple II's, Modems where you actually have to put a telephone in place and NES's.

Ahh yes a dumping ground for all our unwanted goods. We could then call it a aid package and feel all warm and fuzzy about it. That's it I appoint you to the secretary of useless shit. That way you can get this program up and running. We will waste billions on it!

Is that garbage barge still looking for a home too? Exports are good right? :D

Skallvia, by building up their economy, we in the West have helped the Chinese get the funds that are necessary for them to build up their armed forces and make them a much greater threat than they were before.

It doesn't matter if there are trade relations, the Chinese are still Communist and so are still inherently opposed to Capitalism; when they went to the existing model three decades ago, it wasn't a rejection of Communism, but just a step back.

*snip of Lenin Quote*

Look, sure theyve gotten more prosperous and therefore built up their armed forces...But, who spends more on defense, the US or China?

Second, you havent answered for a motive, the "Anti-Capitalizt" shit, is just that, without the "Ebil Commies" selling to the "Ebil Capitolizts" then China's economy goes down the tube, Its simply not in their best interest to get a war going with us...

Itd cost them money, shit loads of money, and without our revenue they simply wont have any, Hell, their entire monetary system is dependent on a Strong US Dollar, why do you think they went Apeshit when the inflation fears started up here?


There's simply no reason for China to go to war with us, in fact, they own alot of the Ports down here, especially around New Orleans, so why would they want to attack it? Itd be like sending the US Marine Corps to take down a Chinese WalMart, or KFC, its laughable...

I'm of the opinion that we should dump eighties tech all over them. Betamax, El Camino's, Apple II's, Modems where you actually have to put a telephone in place and NES's.

I'll take some NES's. :D

But, who spends more on defense, the US or China?

Fun fact: The U.S. spends more on its military than all other countries combined.

Fun fact: The U.S. spends more on its military than all other countries combined.

As rightly we should.

Fun fact: The U.S. spends more on its military than all other countries combined.

Exactly, so being afraid of China spending more on theirs, is alot like the Pot calling the Kettle Black...

As rightly we should.

Why?

Fun fact: The U.S. spends more on its military than all other countries combined.

No quite, though Obama is increasing it:

http://emergent-culture.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/global-military-spending-2007.jpg

U.S. discretionary budget:

http://www.barryhermanson.org/home/pie.gif

As rightly we should.

Why?

Well, alot of ours goes towards benefits for or Military Men and Women, so its a just cause, imo...

Doesnt mean I have to be afraid of China though, or Cuba for that matter...

lol, I have been waiting for one these threads to come up again.

This time I will argue both sides. End the one way embargo with the Cuban government. Establish full economic, political and social relations. American loans and credits $. Allow American tourists. No more USA agricultural sales to Cuba on a cash basis. Receives Cuban American family remittances $.

Just like the Cuban government has economic, political and social relations with most nations of the world, like the nations of the European Union and Canada.

No demands of political democratic reforms such as multi political party elections, freedoms of the press and assembly for full relations.

In time the Cuban government will democratize itself.

Sounds like a great concept:


The other side of the story:

To ask a dictatorship government that declares itself a government for life and the most democratic government in the world for full relations with democratic preconditions of multi political party elections, freedoms of the press and assembly which would bring about any economic, political or social changes the people wished or not is ridiculous.

In this sense of the word I dont blame the Cuban dictatorship.

If I were the Cuban dictatorship government for life with all that international support I would not democratize and neither would you if you were them.

The Cuban governemt will control how those relations of trade are established. How many American tourists are allowed in and when as is their right to do so.

After the Soviet Union East European satelite Empire fell apart what saved Fidel was trade with the European Union, Canadian and European tourists, making the US Dollar $ legal in Cuba sent by Cuban Americans to help thier families buy many goods at higher prices $ in so called dollar stores, in a currency Cubans do not earn $. A tatic most of us crazy Cuban Americans like myself consider a form of ransom $ as it helps the Cuban government, even though it helps our families still in Cuba live a little better Cuban style.


Those Darn Crazy Cuban Americans, Cuban American Feelings:

Just about Every leader of every nation on earth has economic, political and or social relations with the Cuban dictatorship government for life of Fidel and Raul and nothing has actually changed for the obvious reason dictatorship elite. The USA even sells the Cuban government agricultural products on a cash basis. Cuba recieved 2,348,340 tourists in 2008, mostly Canadians and Europeans.

Then most of you wonder why those darn crazy Cuban Americans like myself say and do the darnest things in the popular Que Pasa USA? TV show.

How would you all feel about the world if it were your nation of origin? Would you not feel like us, like the world does not care? Those are the feelings of the Cuban American community. Most of you dont call us Crazy Cuban Americans for nothing, note I say most of you not all.

Que Pasa USA?

Que Pasa USA? claims to be the first bilingual hispanic comedy in the USA as well as the first bilingual Cuban American show. About a tipical Cuban American family in Miami & Hialeah. Its funny to us Cuban Americans. Rocky Echevarria - Steven Bauer of Scarface fame stars in it. I use it on my Miami Jai-Alai and Miami Shores NS nation factbook, embassy exchange website respectively.

Que Pasa USA ? Part of Wikipedia Link:

http://www.quepasausa.org/program.html

Que Pasa USA Wikipedia Link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C2%BFQu%C3%A9_Pasa,_USA%3F#Broadcast_History

lol, I have been waiting for one these threads to come up again.

This time I will argue both sides. End the one way embargo with the Cuban government. Establish full economic, political and social relations. American loans and credits $. Allow American tourists. No more USA agricultural sales to Cuba on a cash basis. Receives Cuban American family remittances $.

Just like the Cuban government has economic, political and social relations with most nations of the world, like the nations of the European Union and Canada.

No demands of political democratic reforms such as multi political party elections, freedoms of the press and assembly for full relations.

In time the Cuban government will democratize itself.


True.

With trade, we'd actually have more leverage on Cuba. The US policy towards Cuba has always been nonsensical.

That was my biology thesis. The answer is yes I proved it after attaching lips to a chicken. Then I got banned from taking any more biology classes.

That's one of the worst thesis subjects I have ever heard of.

True.

With trade, we'd actually have more leverage on Cuba. The US policy towards Cuba has always been nonsensical.

The European Union, Canada and most nations of the world have full economic, political and social relations with the Cuban dictatorship government elite that proclaims itself a government for life and the most democratic natiion in the world, and its not just government propaganda, my friend.

The USA despite a one way trade relationship sells the Cuban government agricultural products on a cash basis. Cuban Americans do send Cuban American family remittances $, care packages and visit despite the past restrictions.

Where is the leverage of the European Union? No where.

The European Union, Canada and most nations of the world have full economic, political and social relations... Cuba...

Where is the leverage of the European Union? No where.

Where is the leverage? Why would there BE leverage? It's the US that is trying to mould Cuba to some desired image - everyone else is just getting on with it.

The European Union, Canada and most nations of the world have full economic, political and social relations with the Cuban dictatorship government elite that proclaims itself a government for life and the most democratic natiion in the world, and its not just government propaganda, my friend.

The USA despite a one way trade relationship sells the Cuban government agricultural products on a cash basis. Cuban Americans do send Cuban American family remittances $, care packages and visit despite the past restrictions.

Where is the leverage of the European Union? No where.

Thats because the EU doesnt treat them, and/or have the ability to treat them like we do China, open up a few Wal-Marts and Fast Food restaurants, and get a little Americanization going, and the Cuban Propaganda will fail miserably in comparison...

Thats because the EU doesnt treat them, and/or have the ability to treat them like we do China, open up a few Wal-Marts and Fast Food restaurants, and get a little Americanization going, and the Cuban Propaganda will fail miserably in comparison...

While China has changed alot while still a strong political dictatorship the changes that have taken place is because the Chinese government has allowed it not because of international presures or constructive engagement.

The European Union constructive engagement with the Cuban dictatorship elite has also failed.

The Cuban government may or may not open those businesses in Cuba, they dont have too.

While China has changed alot while still a strong political dictatorship the changes that have taken place is because the Chinese government has allowed it not because of international presures or constructive engagement.


I think you're wrong.

I think the Chinese government has mellowed BECAUSE of interaction.


The European Union constructive engagement with the Cuban dictatorship elite has also failed.


Failed in what way? The EU isn't gung ho for regime change - that's America's schtick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami Shores View Post
The European Union, Canada and most nations of the world have full economic, political and social relations... Cuba...

Where is the leverage of the European Union? No where.

Where is the leverage? Why would there BE leverage? It's the US that is trying to mould Cuba to some desired image - everyone else is just getting on with it.

That is part of my point we agree on this one.

That is part of my point we agree on this one.

So... why is this an argument that US relations would fail to yield productive results?

Or am I missing something?

While China has changed alot while still a strong political dictatorship the changes that have taken place is because the Chinese government has allowed it not because of international presures or constructive engagement.


I would say that the changes in China are a result of the Globalization of the Marketplace, and their desire not to end up like North Korea...

And the fact that China has changed as a result of an ever increasing Global Market suggests that isolating Cuba will only prolong its problems...

That's all well and good, but you fail to note that the Chinese have absolutely no reason to go to war with the US, and plenty of reasons not to. That's assuming the Chinese could compete with them anyway, which they can't. The US military is so ridiculously powerful that it would wipe the floor with any country which tried to attack it.

Numbers could very well make the difference though, for example WWII the side with the best/most advanced equipment did not win, the side with the most did.

Numbers could very well make the difference though, for example WWII the side with the best/most advanced equipment did not win, the side with the most did.

But, I would say that the the side with the best/most advanced equipment did win...

the Sherman Tank was the best because it was the easiest to mass produce, and was the most reliable tank available, the Panzers could not match it in either of these categories...


As well, how can you say that the Atomic Bomb wasnt the most advanced piece of equipment in WWII?

In my opinion the embargo has only made it worst for the people in Cuba. Castro used it as an excuse to begin the so called "Special Period." I am Cuban, born and raised there, and I tell you before when Russia was still around we didn't have it so hard, with all the hand outs from them. After Russian when down, we really fell the burden of the embargo. I hate politicians, and Castro the most. I tell you what, if you put an embargo in place to every communist country out there then I see a fairness behind the whole thing. As long as the embargo is against little island of Cuba, of 11 million people, I will see it as bull crap to say the least. Oh, and ultimately that land, and country belongs to the Cubans. Castro Regime is now, just now, reaching a similar corruption than the one under Batista. Oh, I still don't like Castro, but at least everyone in Cuba have to thank him for educating the masses.

lol, I have been waiting for one these threads to come up again.

This time I will argue both sides. End the one way embargo with the Cuban government. Establish full economic, political and social relations. American loans and credits $. Allow American tourists. No more USA agricultural sales to Cuba on a cash basis. Receives Cuban American family remittances $.

Just like the Cuban government has economic, political and social relations with most nations of the world, like the nations of the European Union and Canada.

No demands of political democratic reforms such as multi political party elections, freedoms of the press and assembly for full relations.

In time the Cuban government will democratize itself.

Sounds like a great concept:


The other side of the story:

To ask a dictatorship government that declares itself a government for life and the most democratic government in the world for full relations with democratic preconditions of multi political party elections, freedoms of the press and assembly which would bring about any economic, political or social changes the people wished or not is ridiculous.

In this sense of the word I dont blame the Cuban dictatorship.

If I were the Cuban dictatorship government for life with all that international support I would not democratize and neither would you if you were them.

The Cuban governemt will control how those relations of trade are established. How many American tourists are allowed in and when as is their right to do so.

After the Soviet Union East European satelite Empire fell apart what saved Fidel was trade with the European Union, Canadian and European tourists, making the US Dollar $ legal in Cuba sent by Cuban Americans to help thier families buy many goods at higher prices $ in so called dollar stores, in a currency Cubans do not earn $. A tatic most of us crazy Cuban Americans like myself consider a form of ransom $ as it helps the Cuban government, even though it helps our families still in Cuba live a little better Cuban style.


Those Darn Crazy Cuban Americans, Cuban American Feelings:

Just about Every leader of every nation on earth has economic, political and or social relations with the Cuban dictatorship government for life of Fidel and Raul and nothing has actually changed for the obvious reason dictatorship elite. The USA even sells the Cuban government agricultural products on a cash basis. Cuba recieved 2,348,340 tourists in 2008, mostly Canadians and Europeans.

Then most of you wonder why those darn crazy Cuban Americans like myself say and do the darnest things in the popular Que Pasa USA? TV show.

How would you all feel about the world if it were your nation of origin? Would you not feel like us, like the world does not care? Those are the feelings of the Cuban American community. Most of you dont call us Crazy Cuban Americans for nothing, note I say most of you not all.

Que Pasa USA?

Que Pasa USA? claims to be the first bilingual hispanic comedy in the USA as well as the first bilingual Cuban American show. About a tipical Cuban American family in Miami & Hialeah. Its funny to us Cuban Americans. Rocky Echevarria - Steven Bauer of Scarface fame stars in it. I use it on my Miami Jai-Alai and Miami Shores NS nation factbook, embassy exchange website respectively.

Que Pasa USA ? Part of Wikipedia Link:

http://www.quepasausa.org/program.html

Que Pasa USA Wikipedia Link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C2%BFQu%C3%A9_Pasa,_USA%3F#Broadcast_History


I agree with you paisano.

I guess you must have missed my point my friend.

As I have stated. The Cuban government has relations with Canada, The European Union and the world including limited agricultural trade with the USA on a cash basis and it has failed to bring about democratic changes.

The Cuban government (Dictatorship) dosent need relations with anyone to democratize itself it just has too do it if it wants too.

The economic changes in China have been because the Chinese government has allowed it while remaining a strong political dictatorship.

Cuba has recently replaced Foreign Affairs Minister Felipe Perez Roque and former Minister of the Economy Carlos Lage who the world saw as reformers with pro Raul hardliners.

Raul has stated he would be willing to send all so called Cuban political prisoners and their families to Miami or the USA in exchange for their five revolutionary heroes. Change we can believe in, just government propaganda? lol.

Raul and or the Cuban government has stated it is willing to negotiate relations with the USA and the EU based on equality and mutual respect without any outside presures while respecting each nations soverignity.

Those words are code words for relations without democratic political reforms which can bring about whatever economic and social changes the people of Cuban wish to make or not.

One can blame it on Fidel. But it seems like Fidel is still alive while Raul runs Cuba and blames the lack of changes on Fidel. So who is runing Cuba anyways Fidel, Raul or both, change we can belive in? Only when I see it.

While I am often charged with repeating the same thing over and ove it is my best material, how many diffrent ways can one point out the same facts as they exsist.

Sugar? Cigars? Rum?

Hardly "nothing." :p

Competent doctors?

The Cuban embargo is not only unproductive but it is anti-productive. Has been for decades. The only reason it still exists is the Cuban ex-pat voting block in Florida.

Didn't those American companies under-report their assets, thus cheating the Cuban government out of owed taxes?

While this occured often in the midst of US coroporate involvement in Latin American politics, I'm not sure it was the case this time, though I would not be surprised.

What I do know is that the Cuba did offer to pay for the seized assets and the US government refused the payment. I have no idea why the US government should be speaking on behalf of private corporations, but there you go.

The Cuban embargo is not only unproductive but it is anti-productive. Has been for decades. The only reason it still exists is the Cuban ex-pat voting block in Florida.

The Cuban ex-pat community in Florida is no longer against the embargo. Well, the majority support ending the embargo, according to a recent survey (http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.cuba/2008-12/msg00185.html).

In an unprecedented shift in attitude that could affect Cuba policy for the incoming administration of Barack Obama, more than one out of two Miami-Dade Cuban Americans think the U.S. trade embargo against Cuba should end, according to a new poll released Tuesday.

The poll, conducted by Florida International University's Institute for Public Opinion Research and funded by the Brookings Institution and the Cuba Study Group, indicates that 55 percent of those polled favor discontinuing the trade embargo imposed in 1962. Sixty-five percent favor reestablishing diplomatic relations with Cuba.

Such a shift in opinion may explain the shift in Obama's foreign policy. This survey came out shortly after Obama went to a summit of Caribbean nations where other heads of state brought up the issue and expressed a wish that the US ended the embargo.

My guess is that it was around this time that quiet discussions started taking place that eventually led to this meeting.

"Justified"? Whom are we worried about doing justice to, communist governments or their peoples?

Arbenz wasn't a communist. As I recall from taking a class on Latin America, he was no more radical than Scandinavia. When it comes to UFCO, if we attempted to do what he tried doing here, it would merely be called eminent domain. His plan was to buy up the farmland UFCO was just leaving dormant - at fair market value, mind you - and distribute it (either through homesteading - which we've done here - or through sale; I forget which) to people who would actually use it.

At least here, in USA, you have to put up with a leader for a maximun of 8 years, in Cuba it is for life. The reason behind the dictatorship involves a lot of politics, this is why I hate politics. When politicians actually put their best interest aside, and actually think of the people if only brieftly I admire it, regardless of who the politician is. That is the only good I see in Castro the education reforms he did in Cuba. I hate politics and what comes of it. You can't even trust a history book for the same reasons. My view is that unless I was there and live it, I really don't know crap.

At least here, in USA, you have to put up with a leader for a maximun of 8 years, in Cuba it is for life. The reason behind the dictatorship involves a lot of politics, this is why I hate politics. When politicians actually put their best interest aside, and actually think of the people if only brieftly I admire it, regardless of who the politician is. That is the only good I see in Castro the education reforms he did in Cuba. I hate politics and what comes of it.

Spending Soviet money on health care is the quality we generally like to discuss.

At least here, in USA, you have to put up with a leader for a maximun of 8 years, in Cuba it is for life. The reason behind the dictatorship involves a lot of politics, this is why I hate politics. When politicians actually put their best interest aside, and actually think of the people if only brieftly I admire it, regardless of who the politician is. That is the only good I see in Castro the education reforms he did in Cuba. I hate politics and what comes of it. You can't even trust a history book for the same reasons. My view is that unless I was there and live it, I really don't know crap.

After talking with the professor from Cuba I have determined the most important thing Cuba could export to the US is an idea.
That Idea is to mix Coffee and Rum.

Perhaps that and it's been going on for too long, don't you think?
Indeed. Time is an important factor too.

As opposed to a sudden complete lifting of the embargo and normalizing? Why wait?
Because sudden change can cause (unintended) turmoil, and could destabilize the island in a way that isn't particularly beneficial to any party.

Embargo, not blockade. There is a difference.
I know, I actually wrote both wrong the first time around, but managed to correct one of them. Alas, the other snuck under my radar :p

Communism is about as un-American as an Iranian militant taking a shit on the American flag while eating a roasted bald eagle leg and simultaneously reading the Koran.
So... Not particularly?

I guess you must have missed my point my friend.

As I have stated. The Cuban government has relations with Canada, The European Union and the world including limited agricultural trade with the USA on a cash basis and it has failed to bring about democratic changes.

While I am often charged with repeating the same thing over and ove it is my best material, how many diffrent ways can one point out the same facts as they exsist.

You are missing the point.

(Which, unfortunately, means we're going to be stuck with the amnesiac parrot routine forever)

The point being: The US is THE party interested in regime change in Cuba. No one else gives a flying fuck. Why would the regime change in Cuba, if no one cares? Trade or no trade.

If the US (which, apparently, cares a LOT) was actually normalising relations with Cuba, they'd have a greater ability to influence Cuba.

Your argument that nothing would come of it, based on... what Canada has been doing, is like discussing whether or not the guy JUDGING the race is going to 'win' or not.

I always considered the U.S. embargo on Cuba very childish.

You are missing the point.

(Which, unfortunately, means we're going to be stuck with the amnesiac parrot routine forever)

The point being: The US is THE party interested in regime change in Cuba. No one else gives a flying fuck. Why would the regime change in Cuba, if no one cares? Trade or no trade.

If the US (which, apparently, cares a LOT) was actually normalising relations with Cuba, they'd have a greater ability to influence Cuba.

Your argument that nothing would come of it, based on... what Canada has been doing, is like discussing whether or not the guy JUDGING the race is going to 'win' or not.

The Cuban government (Dictatorship for life) has economic, political and or social relations with almost every nation in the world. Has had and has a constructive engagement with the European Union and it has not produced any results of change because they are a dictatorship elite that officially proclaims itself for life and the most democratic nation in the world it is not just propaganda. Even buys agricultural products from the USA on a cash $ basis. Where is the change you all can believe in?

I would love to RP with you guys. I will be the worlds worst dictator. You will trade with me, send me tourists $, loans and credits $, we will have a constructive engagement dialogue on change forever and I will change, lol.

Your same policy should be adopted for the dicatatorship nations of all the world. They will eventually change with your international support, lol

If I were them I would not change and neither would you guys.

I do agree with you the world leaders do not care and most of my fellow nations on NS do not care. Yet they would care if it were thier nation of origin. Those are the feelings of the Crazy Cuban American community like myself. All that international support for dictators for life Fidel and Raul then you all wonder why those crazy Cuban Americans feel the way they do and say and do the darnest things they do.

The embargo has failed because of a lack of international support. And constructive engagement has failed because of international support that is part of my point.

Have I made some sense here? Agree with us or not do you now understand us crazy Cuban Americans? That is why we are crazy. Most of you not all dont call us crazy Cuban Americans for nothing.

The Cuban government (Dictatorship for life) has economic, political and or social relations with almost every nation in the world. Has had and has a constructive engagement with the European Union and it has not produced any results of change because they are a dictatorship elite


No, 'it has not produced any results of change'... because the US (the only people that CARE) are not involved.


The embargo has failed because of a lack of international support. And constructive engagement has failed because of international support that is my point.


Both of these are true.

The US has wasted decades on a policy that wouldn't have worked anyway, and that DEFINITELY wouldn't work, under the circumstances.

If the US had roled back it's embargo politics decades ago (or, preferably, never started) there might have been some change.

I want some goddamn Havana Club and a humidor of Montecristos...

I want some goddamn Havana Club and a humidor of Montecristos...

Aye, in the meantime though you can get them shipped from Canada right to your home. I have been doing it for over 20 years. Not one confiscated shipment.

I want some goddamn Havana Club and a humidor of Montecristos...

Then come live in the UK!:D

Aye, in the meantime though you can get them shipped from Canada right to your home. I have been doing it for over 20 years. Not one confiscated shipment.

Interesting.

*takes note* :p

Interesting.

*takes note* :p


My sources are in Vancouver. Just find one over the net. Tell them what you want to do and you will find someone to agree to do it. They just label the customs papers with some other type of cigar.

Failed in what way? The EU isn't gung ho for regime change - that's America's schtick.

That's because people don't flee Cuba to go to Europe. They come to America, and then we have to take care of them.

That's because people don't flee Cuba to go to Europe. They come to America, and then we have to take care of them.

I'm sure that's a real hardship - what with the billions of people in Cuba.

I can see how America should be let off the hook for taking in refugees of hardship they perpetuate, also.

I'm sure that's a real hardship - what with the billions of people in Cuba.

I can see how America should be let off the hook for taking in refugees of hardship they perpetuate, also.
besides, the cuban refugees have been a good thing for the US overall. (not counting their stupid anti-cuba politics)

besides, the cuban refugees have been a good thing for the US overall. (not counting their stupid anti-cuba politics)

Thank you for the nice comment on the first part of your statement which in my view most of our fellow NS nations dont share.

So what do you want the Cuban Americans to be pro dictators for life Fidel and Raul? Would you wish a dictatorship government for life for your nation of origin?
Or not in your nation of origins case?

The same questions go for the rest of you as well.

I think Cuba has proven itself to be a sane dictatorship, not some despotic hellhole like N. Korea.

I think Cuba has proven itself to be a sane dictatorship, not some despotic hellhole like N. Korea.

Tell that to the Americans.

I think Cuba has proven itself to be a sane dictatorship, not some despotic hellhole like N. Korea.

It is a hellhole in spots, probably due to the embargo, as America is the world's number one food producer by a longshot.

It is a hellhole in spots, probably due to the embargo, as America is the world's number one food producer by a longshot.

As is most of Latin America really

I think Cuba has proven itself to be a sane dictatorship, not some despotic hellhole like N. Korea.

I just had a class with a guy that was locked up for 5 years because he wrote a short children's story that involved a horse throwing its rider when the rider started making poor decisions.
Some editor felt it was counter revolutionary and reported it to the government. I don't know if i can classify as sane.

I just had a class with a guy that was locked up for 5 years because he wrote a short children's story that involved a horse throwing its rider when the rider started making poor decisions.
Some editor felt it was counter revolutionary and reported it to the government. I don't know if i can classify as sane.

Apparently the government was reading between the lines. Funny most stories with morals like that are counter government. Any government....

Apparently the government was reading between the lines. Funny most stories with morals like that are counter government. Any government....

this was in the 80's He got to the US because Reagan cut some deal to take political dissidents off Castro's hands if they had university education. Now He teaches Spanish at my university.

I think Cuba has proven itself to be a sane dictatorship, not some despotic hellhole like N. Korea.
Sane? Is all this the markings of a "sane dictatorship"? ? ?

The Cuban government has been accused of numerous human rights abuses, including torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extrajudicial executions (a.k.a. "El Paredón").[91]

Cuba is a signatory to the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights and its constitution has a section outlining the "fundamental rights, duties and guarantees" of the Cuban people.[1] However, possessing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a punishable and the regime destroys copies of it.[2]

Dissidents complain of harassment and torture.[5] Educational and cultural policy is based on Marxist ideology by law,[6] and The Code for Children, Youth and Family states that a parent who teaches ideas contrary to communism can be sentenced to three years in prison.[6] Freedom of assembly is severely restricted in Cuba. No independent labor unions are allowed.[3] Government maintains tight control of religion.[3] There is no due process; the judicial system is constitutionally subordinate to the government.[3] Citizens cannot leave or return to Cuba without first obtaining official permission, which is often denied.[7][8] Even discussing escaping carries a six-month prison sentence.[8] Those with permission to leave for authorized reason are required to leave children in Cuba, who are kept as hostages to prevent people fleeing.[7][8]

"The government also imprisons or orders the surveillance of individuals who have committed no illegal act, relying upon provisions that penalize “dangerousness” (estado peligroso) and allow for “official warning” (advertencia oficial)."[6]

The Cuban constitution says that free speech is allowed "in keeping with the objectives of socialist society" and that artistic creation is allowed "as long as its content is not contrary to the Revolution".

- in other words, "you're allowed to write and say whatever you wish, as long as it's in line with the socialist party agenda." -

Cuba's ranking was on the bottom of the Press Freedom Index 2008 compiled by the Reporters Without Borders (RWB).[9] RWB states that Cuba is "the second biggest prison in the world for journalists" after the People's Republic of China.[37] Cuba was named one of the ten most censored countries in the world by the Committee to Protect Journalists.[38]

Books, newspapers, radio channels, television channels, movies and music are censored.

Human rights group Amnesty International assert that the universal state ownership of the media means that freedom of expression is restricted. Thus the exercise of the right to freedom of expression is restricted by the lack of means of mass communication falling outside state control.[40] Human Rights Watch states: "Refusing to recognize human rights monitoring as a legitimate activity, the government denies legal status to local human rights groups.


Here's a good example:

In 1960, Armando Valladares was working at the Cuban Postal Savings Bank when agents of the Ministry of Communications handed him a card bearing a communist slogan and told him to put it on his worktable. The 23-year-old Valladares refused. Astonished, the agents asked him if he had anything against Castro. Valladares answered that if Castro was a communist, he did. Valladares was convicted on a charge of placing bombs in public places and was sentenced to thirty years in prison.

According to the Human Rights Watch, Castro constructed a "repressive machinery" which continues to deprive Cubans of their basic rights.[165]

Castro created a significant system of censorship; Cuba had the fourth worst system out of 174 countries on the 2008 Press Freedom Index.[166] The few Cubans with official permissions to access Internet face Internet surveillance; the vast majority of Cubans face five-year prison sentences for connecting to Internet.[167]

The authorities have called Internet "the great disease of 21st century".[99] As a result of computer ownership bans, computer ownership rates are among the world's lowest.[100]

In their book, Corruption in Cuba, Sergio Diaz-Briquets and Jorge F. Pérez-López Servando state that Castro "institutionalized" corruption and that "Castro's state-run monopolies, cronyism, and lack of accountability have made Cuba one of the world's most corrupt states".[168] Servando Gonzalez, in The Secret Fidel Castro, calls Castro a "corrupt tyrant".[169]

In 1959, according to Gonzalez, Castro established "Fidel's checking account", from which he could draw funds as he pleased.[169] The "Comandante's reserves" were created in 1970, from which Castro allegedly "provided gifts to many of his cronies, both home and abroad".[169] Gonzalez asserts that Comandante's reserves have been linked to counterfeiting business empires and money laundering.[169]
As early as 1968, a once-close friend of Castro's wrote that Castro had huge accounts in Swiss banks.[169] Castro's secretary was allegedly seen using Zurich banks.[169] Gonzalez believes that Cuba's paucity of trade with Switzerland contrasts oddly with the National Office of Cuba's relatively large office in Zurich.[169] Castro has denied having a bank account abroad with even a dollar in it.[170]
. . . I have no problem with Swiss bank accounts, but it looks ridiculous for a communist revolutionary preaching state-sponsored equality to have one . . .

A KGB officer, Alexei Novikov, stated that Castro's personal life, like the lives of the rest of the Communist elite, is "shrouded under an impenetrable veil of secrecy". Among other things, he asserted that Castro has a personal guard of more than 9700 men and three luxurious yachts.[169]

The Worldwide Press Freedom Index, from the Reporters without Borders ranks Cuba as 169 out of 173, better only than Myanmar, Turkmenistan, North Korea and Eritrea when it comes to cencorship.

Freedom House ranks Cuba as 7 out of 7 (the worst) for Political Rights and 6 out of 7 (second worst) for Civil Liberties and concludes that Cuba is Not Free .


Paramount issues have been state salaries failing to meet personal needs under the state rationing system chronically plagued with shortages. As the variety and quantity of available rationed goods declined, Cubans increasingly turned to the black market to obtain basic food, clothing, household, and health amenities. The informal sector is characterized by what many Cubans call sociolismo. Corruption is common.[15] Preferential treatment exists for those who are members of the Communist Party or who hold positions of power within the government.[16] Access to transportation, work, housing, university education and better health care are a function of status within the government or the Communist Party.[17]

As a result of inefficient state-run agriculture, Cuba imports up to 80% of its food.[42] After coming to power, Raúl Castro, Fidel Castro's brother, has ridiculed the bureaucracy that shackles the agriculture sector.[42]

Before 1959, Cuba boasted as many cattle as people. Today meat is so scarce that it is a crime to kill and eat a cow.[43] Cuban people even suffered from starvation during the Special Period.


When Argentinean pensioners protesters over 450 dollar a month pensions, Cuban pensioners had to survive on only a few dollars a month.[49] Cuban pensions are among the smallest in the Western hemisphere at $9.50 after a 2009 reform, when Raul Castro increased minimum pensions by 2 dollars to recompense for those who have "dedicated a great part of their lives to working... and who remain firm in defence of socialism".[51]

And if you want to look at reasons why Cuba's economic sucks so much socialist sack, look at the way they treat business, and this is an improvement and only since 1993!

Havana in 1993 legalized self-employment for some 150 occupations. The government tightly controls the small private sector, which has fluctuated in size from 150,000 to 209,000, by regulating and taxing it. For example, owners of small private restaurants (paladares) can seat no more than 12 people[54]

Look at how horrible Cuba stands:

The 2008 Index of Economic Freedom Report ranks Cuba 156 out of 157 nations surveyed.

Tell that to the Americans.
You don't really beleive that, after all the facts I've just posted above, do you?

The embargo is anti-capitalist, anti-free market, and is ironically itself an example of socialist, authoritarian, economic policy.

If you really believe in economic freedom, you cannot support the embargo. And if you don't, I think it's time to quit pretending.

The embargo is anti-capitalist, anti-free market, and is ironically itself an example of socialist, authoritarian, economic policy.

If you really believe in economic freedom, you cannot support the embargo. And if you don't, I think it's time to quit pretending.

Well said.

The embargo is anti-capitalist, anti-free market, and is ironically itself an example of socialist, authoritarian, economic policy.

If you really believe in economic freedom, you cannot support the embargo. And if you don't, I think it's time to quit pretending.

TO be anti capitalist the embargo would have to be for a market purpose. AKA to keep Cuba from dumping sugar on our market. The embargo is political in nature so is not really pro or anti capitalist.

A post to all my fellow nations. Recently a family member of mine emigrated legally from Cuba to the USA. We are helping him out financially $ until he gets settled on his own. His family in Cuba also wants to leave that sane socialist dictatorship island paradise many-some of you praise, deny or excuse so much.

Dont blame it on the evil US Embargo. The Cuban dictatorship government for life trades with many nations of the world. Buys agricultural products from the USA on a cash basis.

Recieves Cuban American family remittances up to $1200 a year, care packages, limited time family visits despite the now lifted restrictions.

Was visited by 2,348,460 tourist guests $ in 2008 mostly Canadians and Europeans.

Cubans in Cuba are paid in CUP Pesos $ and have to buy many products in so called government dollar stores now CUC Pesos $ stores at very high prices $.

Cuban Americans send hard currency $ money to thier families in Cuba, so they can buy in CUC $ Pesos, in a currency they do not earn $. While it helps our families live a little better Cuban style it is a form of ransom $.

Cubans in Cuba should be paid in CUP Pesos $ and buy in CUP Pesos $ thier national currency.

The embargo has failed because of a lack of international support. Constructive engagement has failed because of international support of the dictatorship government elite.

The Cuban government dictatorship elite has economic, political and or social relations with almost every nation in the world.

If they want to democratize they dont need relations with the USA do to so.

Dictator President for life Raul has stated he is willing to release all so called political prisoners along with thier entire families to Miami or the USA in exchange for thier 5 revolutionary hereos. It is not just propaganda. Change you can believe in?

With all the international support for the Cuban dictatorship for life elite no wonder us crazy Cuban Americans feel the way we do, say and do the darnest things. That is why we are crazy Cuban Americans. Most of you not all dont call us crazy Cuban Americans for nothing. Now do you at least understand our feelings? Care or not?

How would you feel if it were your nation of origin? I dont think you would have the same views, sane dictatorship, not so bad.

Wish that every nation in the world have full economic, political and social relations with your nation of origins dictatorship for life as does the Cuban government have.

I happen to have 2 family members in Cuba who are part of the privileged governing elite. As far as I am concerned they are not family as I am sure they consider me the same way.

Which for family reasons I cant post thier names and they are known public figures, mid level I would say but known.

I happen to have at least 2 former Cuban political prisoners family members, for family reasons I cant post thier names.

Proclaims itself a government for life, the most democratic nation in the world. It is not just propaganda. Has neighborhood Commitees for the Defense of the Revolution. Change I can believe in? Change you can believe in?

Anyone care to back me up or not?

I wouldnt say that Cuba is anything more that a despotic shit hole...Id never want to live there...

Im just saying that the embargo is pointless, its not accomplishing anything, and if anything else, simply makes it more difficult to change the country, look what trade did to other Communist Dictatorships, its almost immediate change, because they have to keep up with the global marketplace...

I wouldnt say that Cuba is anything more that a despotic shit hole...Id never want to live there...

Im just saying that the embargo is pointless, its not accomplishing anything, and if anything else, simply makes it more difficult to change the country, look what trade did to other Communist Dictatorships, its almost immediate change, because they have to keep up with the global marketplace...

Look at all the changes trade and international support has done for Cuba? No changes at all you are not dealing with Dictator Augusto Pinochet of Chile that for all his crimes of power allowed a national referendum with safe guards for himself should he loose, lost and respected it.

You are not dealing with Dictator Francisco Franco of Spain who trusted King Juan Carlos I de Borbon Y Borbon with power. King Juan Carlos I transformed Spain into a modern democratic Constitutional European Monarchy.

You are dealing with dictators for life who will not change because you ask them nicely too. That is what you all dont understand or dont wish to understand.
That is part of my point.

Would wish world wide relations with that type of government if it were your nation of orign? I think not?

Please dont support, deny and or excuse the dictatorship for life of Fidel and Raul. Not even one word of understanding for how those crazy Cuban Americans feel agree with us or not.

Look at all the changes trade and international support has done for Cuba?

Imll have to stop you there, without our support, its really rather moot, or does the EU or Canada posses some hidden purchasing/hiring power that somehow matches our own?

Imll have to stop you there, without our support, its really rather moot, or does the EU or Canada posses some hidden purchasing/hiring power that somehow matches our own?

At the risk of repeating myself again, lol, the Cuban government trades with most nations of the world. After the Soviet Union Eastern European sattlelite empire fell apart what saved Fidel was trade with the European Union, Tourists $ mostly canadians and Europeans. Making the USA Dollar & Euro legal in Cuba sent by Cuban Americans to thier families so they could buy many products at a high prices $ in so called dollar stores with CUC Pesos, Cuban Convertible Pesos in a currency they do not earn$, while it helps our families in Cuba live a little better Cuban style it is a form of ransom $.

Again I ask do you at least now understand those crazy Cuban Americans like myself's feelings agree with us or not? Anyone?

TO be anti capitalist the embargo would have to be for a market purpose.

Not at all. Market interference is market interference, whether it's politically motivated or economically motivated. It's as anti-capitalist as communism.

Not at all. Market interference is market interference, whether it's politically motivated or economically motivated. It's as anti-capitalist as communism.

That's Laissez-faire modern capitalism is a little more broad then that.

Not at all. Market interference is market interference, whether it's politically motivated or economically motivated. It's as anti-capitalist as communism.

>.>

<.<

Did... Did we just agree?

TO be anti capitalist the embargo would have to be for a market purpose. AKA to keep Cuba from dumping sugar on our market. The embargo is political in nature so is not really pro or anti capitalist.

It is stopping free trade between Cuba and the US, seems pretty anti-capitalist to me.

That's Laissez-faire modern capitalism is a little more broad then that.

Yes, very convenient for protectionists and socialists. It's a free market, but only when it's politically correct to claim it is.

>.>

<.<

Did... Did we just agree?

Great minds think alike. :wink:

At the risk of repeating myself again, lol, the Cuban government trades with most nations of the world. After the Soviet Union Eastern European sattlelite empire fell apart what saved Fidel was trade with the European Union, Tourists $ mostly canadians and Europeans. Making the USA Dollar & Euro legal in Cuba sent by Cuban Americans to thier families so they could buy many products at a high prices $ in so called dollar stores with CUC Pesos, Cuban Convertible Pesos in a currency they do not earn$, while it helps our families in Cuba live a little better Cuban style it is a form of ransom $.

Again I ask do you at least now understand those crazy Cuban Americans like myself's feelings agree with us or not? Anyone?

Yes, but do those nations set up shop in Cuba? Do they get Corporate interests at stake?

But, its largely beside the point anyway, why would we favor Cuban Americans by not trading with their despotic dictatorship, and not favor Chinese-Americans, Vietnamese-Americans, Several versions of Hispanic-Americans, the list goes on, regardless of how the demographic feels about it...

It is stopping free trade between Cuba and the US, seems pretty anti-capitalist to me.

Capitalism is an economic system in which wealth, and the means of producing wealth, are privately owned and controlled rather than state owned and controlled.
Trade is not a factor in the deifnition. That is Laissez-faire or Free trade advocates which is not in of itself capitalism. One could also argue that it would be more disruptive and uncapitalistic to trade with a society that has the state control the major means of production.

I see non of my points or questions are addressed or supported. Just proves to me what Grave_n_idle stated about the world dosent care. Yet as I stated I NS $ bet you would not feel the same way if it were your nations of origin.

I see non of my points or questions are addressed or supported. Just proves to me what Grave_n_idle stated about the world dosent care. Yet as I stated I NS $ bet you would not feel the same way if it were your nations of origin.

Actually my place of origin has done some pretty despotic things, ask any African-American, yet, Im not seeing why we should not be traded with, lol...

Actually my place of origin has done some pretty despotic things, ask any African-American, yet, Im not seeing why we should not be traded with, lol...

'Has' versus 'is doing right now' is the issue perhaps ?

'Has' versus 'is doing right now' is the issue perhaps ?

It was a joke, but, I would in fact support trading with the Antebellum South...

It, in fact, was a factor in Slavery's demise, Wage-Slavery, as practiced on the Irish, and various other immigrants, was much more efficient...

It was a joke, but, I would in fact support trading with the Antebellum South...

It, in fact, was a factor in Slavery's demise, Wage-Slavery, as practiced on the Irish, and various other immigrants, was much more efficient...

Free labor always out performs slavery. The real death call of slavery was in Egypt and India. Both the British there were able to out produce the southern slave states.

I hate it when Skallvia and Greed and Death are serious in the same thread as each other. I hurts my brain.

Originally Posted by Miami Shores View Post
I see non of my points or questions are addressed or supported. Just proves to me what Grave_n_idle stated about the world dosent care. Yet as I stated I NS $ bet you would not feel the same way if it were your nations of origin.

QUOTE=greed and death;14691242]'Has' versus 'is doing right now' is the issue perhaps ?[/QUOTE]

Actually my place of origin has done some pretty despotic things, ask any African-American, yet, Im not seeing why we should not be traded with, lol...

Ill let your statement that you wish the entire world to have economic, political and social relations with your nation of origin's government that has done some pretty despotic things speak for itself my friend, joke or not.

Free labor always out performs slavery. The real death call of slavery was in Egypt and India. Both the British there were able to out produce the southern slave states.

Exactly, and Id wager that American companies will easily out-strip the Cuban ones, thereby producing the same situation seen in China...

I hate it when Skallvia and Greed and Death are serious in the same thread as each other. I hurts my brain.

You know you like it, :p

Ill let your statement that you wish the entire world to have economic, political and social relations with your nation of origin's government that has done some pretty despotic things speak for itself my friend, joke or not.

Well, yeah, Why wouldnt it, Miami was part of the same Cabal too friend,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Confederate_States_of_America.svg/250px-Confederate_States_of_America.svg.png

Exactly, and Id wager that American companies will easily out-strip the Cuban ones, thereby producing the same situation seen in China...

I don't think Cuba has enough money to start madly buying our debt.

Well, yeah, Why wouldnt it, Miami was part of the same Cabal too friend,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Confederate_States_of_America.svg/250px-Confederate_States_of_America.svg.png

lol that was then this is now my friend. Have you checked out my nation on International Forums? lol.

I don't think Cuba has enough money to start madly buying our debt.

Who said anything about buying? I was thinking we'd just shovel it on em, lol

Well, yeah, Why wouldnt it, Miami was part of the same Cabal too friend,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Confederate_States_of_America.svg/250px-Confederate_States_of_America.svg.png
Miami was not part of "the South" back then, to be honest. South Florida was not really settled much back then because of the lack of real A.C.

Miami was not part of "the South" back then, to be honest. South Florida was not really settled much back then because of the lack of real A.C.

Mint Juleps and sweet tea can only do so much.

lol that was then this is now my friend. Have you checked out my nation on International Forums, lol.

Yeah, but, if you read on, I elaborated, saying that trade also helped end Slavery in the Southern States...


And, um, if Im not mistaken, this is an international forum, so, presumably, yes, yes I have, lol...

Yeah, but, if you read on, I elaborated, saying that trade also helped end Slavery in the Southern States...

And, um, if Im not mistaken, this is an international forum, so, presumably, yes, yes I have, lol...

I meant my Miami Shores nation RPs on the International Forum, lol they are lol awesome.

I meant my Miami Shores nation RPs on the International Forum, lol.

Oh, lol, nah, I prettymuch dont leave NSG, cept for forays into Moderation...

Ive just never gotten into Text Based RP for some reason...

Unless I have constant GUI stimulation, my feeble attention span just dies out, lol...

As it is related I will post this same post on the "Obama allowing travel, money transfers to Cuba" thread. lol, Where to begin. While it would be nice to visit family in Cuba as many times a year as we wish despite the restrictions now lifted Cuban Americans send Cuban American family remittances $ upto $1200 a year, care packages and visited every so years.

Cuban family remittances $ are charged a 20 % to 30 % surcharge in the exchange rate. Exchanged for CUC Pesos $, Cuban Convertible Pesos $. Our families in Cuba are then allowed to buy $ many products in so called government dollar $ stores at high prices $ in a currency they do not earn $. A form of ranson $ or blackmail, so they can live a little better Cuban Style. Change we can believe in.

As Cubans in Cuba should be paid in CUP Pesos $ and buy all products in CUP Pesos $ thier national currency.

Dont blame the evil American embargo, the Cuban government trades with many nations of the world, has economic, political and or social relations with almost every nation in the world if not all, including limited relations with the USA, buys agricultural products from the USA on a cash basis $ what it lacks are American loans $ and credits $.

2,348,460 tourist guests visited Cuba in 2008, mostly Canadians and Europeans as well as some Americans.

I guess now the democratic Cuban government of Fidel and Raul for life, will release all Cuban political prisoners within Cuba not exile. Not demand the release of its five revolutionary heroes in exchange for the Cuban political prisoners along with thier entire families to Miami or other parts of the USA, change we can believe in.

Will now allow freedoms of the press and assembly. Allow multi political party elections to the Cuban National Assembly Parliment, change I can believe in, Change you can believe in, change President Obama can believe in, Change we can all believe in, read my Sig.

Recently a family member of mine emigrated legally from Cuba. The family as am I are helping him out financially $ until he gets settled on his own.

His family still in Cuba, my family too, wishes to also emigrate from that sane democratic socialist island paradise many-some of you praise so much that has relations with the entire world.

I happen to have at least 2 former Cuban political prisoner family members that for family reasons I cant post thier names. I happen to have 2 family members who are part of the privileged governing elite, mid level I would say but known. As far as I am concerned they are not family as I am sure they consider me the same way, yet for family reasons I cant post thier names.

The Cuban government proclaims to the world it is a government for life, it is the most democratic government in the world, has Committes for the Defense of the Revolution, Cuban Americans are called the hardline intransigent ones, Cuban American Miami Mafia members, escoria scum, gusano worms by the Cuban government and many of its allies, but send us your Cuban American family remittances $. has relations with every government leader in the world, then most of you not all wonder why those crazy Cuban Americans like myself say and do the darnest things, feel the way they feel, most of you not all dont call us crazy Cuban Americans for nothing. That is why we are crazy Cuban Americans.

Perhaps most of you all dont believe that Cuban American family remittances $ are charged 20 to 30 % in the exchange rate. Exchanged to our families in Cuba for CUC Pesos - Cuban Convertible Pesos $. So they can buy many products in so called government stores at high prices $ in a currency they do not earn $. A form of ransom $ or blackmail.

President Raul Castro for life has declared he is willing to release all so called Cuban political prisoners along with thier entire families to Miami or other parts of the USA in exchange for thier 5 revolutionary heroes. Change we can believe in.

Perhaps most of you all dont believe the Cuban government declares itself a government for life and the most democratic nation in the world, and it is not just propaganda.

Perhaps most of you dont believe they call us Cuban Americans hardline intransigent, Cuban American Miami Mafia members, escoria scum, gusano worms but send us your Cuban American family remittances $.

Have Commitees for the Defense of the revolution, have relations with the entire world. If I were them with all this international support I would not change and neither would you if you were them.

Now do you at least understand those crazy Cuban Americans feelings?

Yes. It isn't working. Trade with Cuba, combined with American tourists visiting, will be far more effective. The Cubans people will push for an expanded private sector and other rights.

2,348,460 tourists visited Cuba in 2008 mostly Canadians and Europeans. The Cuban government trades with most nations of the world, trade and constructive engagement has not worked either because of the words privileged governing dictatorship elite of which I happen to have 2 family members.

As a Cuban born Cuban American I know the feelings of a majority of the Cuban American community of which I am apart off, the information I have contributed to this thread is as it is. On family remittaces $, the surcharge on the exchange rate, the so called dollar stores, the higher prices $, the currency they do not earn $, the tourists, the world leaders support of the government no matter what thier reasons.

I post this post on this thread as well as both threads are related.
Lol, where to begin. At the risk of repeating myself, lol, I apologize for repeating myself. My best material but I wanted to post these articles of which I have to comment on according to the NS Jolt rules.

Well according to these articles Fidel and Raul or whomever is running Cuba seems serious about full Cuba, US relations.

Dont get all excited by the first words of the following article until it is official as we have all been there before only to be disappointed.
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Castro says Cuba willing to talk on equal terms
The Associated Press

CUMANA, Venezuela -- Cuban President Raul Castro says his government is willing to discuss "everything" with Washington, including human rights, political prisoners and freedom of the press.

Castro says Havana has "sent word to the U.S. government in private and in public" that it is open to talking about anything, as long as it's "on equal terms."

His comments came Thursday during a speech to leaders at a summit hosted by Venezuela's Hugo Chavez.

Castro spoke hours after President Barack Obama said he wants Havana to make the next move to improve U.S.-Cuba relations.

He did not specifically mention Obama's comments.
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I can understand your theory tourists, economic relations and they loose political control. Yet I (We) see the Cuban government (dictatorship) trading with the world as they are, Recieving 2,348,340 tourists during 2008 including 50,000 Americans as they are. And no democratic changes as that is the nature of the privileged dictatorship elite of which I happen to have 2 family members.

Unless Fidel, Raul or whomever is running Cuba have lost thier minds and are willing to commit political suicide under the theory of tourists, relations and they loose political control.

One would think the Cuban government (dictatorship) would not allow any form of economic relations that would undermine thier political control as they now have with the world leaders that support it for whatever reasons.

If the Cuban government (dictatorship) really wants full economic, political and social relations with the USA I have no doubt American, Cuban government issues can be negotiated. Cuban help in drug intradiction. American tourists of which I would think the Cuban government would have to set a quota to handle the extra flow while new hotel resorts are built. American loans $ and Credits, Guantanamo Bay, ect, ect.

I can support Cuban Americans traveling to Cuba to see thier families, I cant support American tourists $ going to Cuba. Tourists see the awesome tourist resorts.

Cuban Americans see thier families in need. Buying high priced $ products in so called dollar stores in CUC Pesos $ in a currency they do not earn. Provided by Cuban American hard currency family remittances $ in Dollars or Euros exchanged for CUC Pesos $. While it helps our families live a little better Cuban style to me it is a form of ransom $, a form of black mail.

The problem would be Cuban American issues, the release of all Cuban political prisoners within Cuba not exile. Freedoms of the press and assembly. Multi political party elections to the Cuban National Assembly Parliament. As the following article seems to call for. Then again who cares other than Cuban Americans.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted on Thursday, 04.16.09

By FRANCES ROBLES
frobles@MiamiHerald.com

PORT OF SPAIN, Trinidad -- Cuba should be reincorporated to the Organization of American States as the first step to its path to democracy, the hemispheric organization's secretary general said Thursday on the eve of the Fifth Summit of the Americas.

''I want to be clear: I want Cuba back in the Interamerican system,'' OAS Secretary General José Miguel Insulza said in an interview with The Miami Herald. ''I think it was a bad idea in the first place ... Cuba is a member of the OAS. Its flag is there.''

Insulza's statement came as President Barack Obama told CNN en espanol that if Cuba starts taking steps toward freedom, a îîthawing of relations'' would come next.

Cuba was suspended from the OAS in 1962. The reason: its alliance with the Soviet Union.

The hemispheric organization's top leader said that since the grounds for Cuba's suspension are outdated and were a ''bad idea in the first place,'' the hemisphere's last remaining communist nation should be welcomed back, despite an OAS clause that says the people of the Americas îîhave a right to democracy and their governments have an obligation to promote and defend it.''

Nearly three dozen heads of government began arriving in this capital city Thursday for for the three-day summit, which opens Friday. The 34 regional leaders are expected to tackle issues from energy to crime and the global economic crisis. The first of the hemispheric gathering was held 15 years ago in Miami.

But this is the first time that pressure has been so strong to bring Cuba back in the fold.

Cuba is not even officially on the summit agenda, but the topic looms large, as more and more Latin American leaders make it clear that they believe Cuba's time of isolation is over.

The timing coincides with new administration of Obama, who on Monday gave Cuban Americans the right to travel freely and send money to relatives to the island. On Thursday, Obama hinted that further steps toward normalized relations could take place if Havana made changes of its own.

''What we're looking for is some signal that there are going to be changes in how Cuba operates that assures that political prisoners are released, that people can speak their minds freely, that they can travel, that they can write and attend church, and do the things that people throughout the hemisphere can do and take for granted,'' Obama told the news network. ''And if there's some sense of movement on those fronts in Cuba, then I think that we can see a further thawing of relations and further changes.''

Insulza called Washington's lifting of restrictions for Cuban Americans an important step. But, he added, that the OAS General Assembly should repeal the outdated resolution that suspends member states with Soviet alliances.

He said once the resolution is revoked, Cuba would regain its membership, even though the organization in 2001 adopted rules that embrace democracy. In the past, Insulza has said discussions should begin to reincorporate Cuba, but it was the first time his position was so unequivocal.

''I am concerned that we still have standing a resolution that punishes a country for being a member of the Soviet-Chinese axis, for being Marxist Leninist and several other things from the cold war,'' he said. ''By repealing that resolution we begin a process, we begin a discussion.''

Insulza said the OAS's democratic charter does not prevent Cuba from rejoining the organization. If the democratic charter is going to be held against Cuba, then that would require a separate suspension on those grounds, he said.

But retired Cuban leader Fidel Castro has already rejected the notion of reintegration to the hemispheric organization. In a column published this week, he decried both Insulza and the OAS.

''Insulza claims that, to enter the OAS, Cuba first has to be accepted by that institution. He knows that we don't even want to hear the infamous name of that institution,'' Castro wrote. ''It has not provided a single service to our people; it is the incarnation of betrayal. If you add up all the aggressive actions in which it was an accomplice, they amount to hundreds of lives and tens of bloody years.''

Castro's brother Raúl, who replaced him as president 14 months ago, spent the day in the Venezuelan city Cumaní with Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, who is having his own pre-summit meeting with his closest allies just a few miles from Trinidad.

Chávez said he would veto the final declaration due to be issued by this weekend's summit. The declaration is essentially an agreement signed by the 34 member nations of the OAS to outline necessary actions needed to advance common issues in the hemisphere.

The document, Chávez said, was written ''as if time had not passed.''
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The Cuban government (dictatorship) has consistently refused the call of democratic changes from those Hispanic and European leaders who support the Cuban government (dictatorship) through relations, tourists and trade. For the obvious reasons that it is a dictatorship that will not democratize because the international community that supports it asks it too as those hispanic leaders are aware off.

Many persons like the Cuban government (dictatorship) call the Cuban American community the stuborn hardline intransigent ones. Yet no one calls the Cuban government (dictatorship) that refuses to democratize itself the stuborn hardline intrasigent ones.

If you were them would you change? I would not and dont blame them under the circumstances.

The Cuban government (dictatorship) dosent need relations with any nation in the world to democratize itself if it wants too.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Funny how President Raul criticizes the same current hispanic leaders that support his government with trade, tourists and relations in the following article.

April 16, 20
WORLD NEWS

Hugo Chavez Receives Cuban President Raul Castro

HAVANA, Cuba, April 16 (acn) Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez received Cuban President Raul Castro who arrived in the Venezuelan city of Cumana, Sucre to attend the Summit of the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas (ALBA).

Cuban News Agency

During a press conference, Raul Castro reaffirmed that the Cuban government has no interest in joining the Organization of American States (OAS), reported Prensa Latina news agency.

“There is an endless list of things they have done against us and that they intend to continue doing against other countries,” said the Cuban president during a press conference at the Antonio José de Sucre international airport. “I have already said this during the Sauípe Summit in Bahía, Brazil: We are not interested in joining the OAS. The OAS has to disappear,” said Raul.

Upon his arrival to Cumana, the Cuban president said that the ALBA Summit coincides with the 48th anniversary of the Bay of Pigs invasion carried out in April 1961 by Cuban counterrevolutionaries with the support of the US government.

During the ALBA summit, the leaders of the member countries —Bolivia, Cuba, Dominica, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Venezuela— will analyze the regional and global impact of the current international economic crisis, along with other priority issues.
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The Cuban American community is not the stuborn hardline intransigent ones.
If the Cuban government (dictatorship) were to democratize itself I would be the first to welcome it. The Cuban Americans would welcome it. but I am not going to hold my breath. We see thier refusal before the world to democratize.

Change the Cuban American Community can believe in? Change we can believe in? Change you can believe in? Anyone care to comment?

Only when we see it, all they have to do is do it. No one is forcing them not too.

wouldnt it be better if we just annexed Cuba.

wouldnt it be better if we just annexed Cuba.

lol, Greed and Death my friend, welcome to the Hispanic Republic of Miamj Shores. 55 % of Cuban birth and descent, 45 % other Hispanics. President Lincoln Diaz-Balart, Vice President Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Foreign Affairs Minister Elian Gonzalez. The way it should have been. Its on the International forums.

I want to see Miami, Broward, Monroe-Key West-Cayo Hueso Counties and others become a province of a democratic Cuba, lol. Only on the NS world.
Viva the USA.

lol, Greed and Death my friend, welcome to the Hispanic Republic of Miamj Shores. 55 % of Cuban birth and descent, 45 % other Hispanics. President Lincoln Diaz-Balart, Vice President Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Foreign Affairs Minister Elian Gonzalez. The way it should have been. Its on the International forums.

I want to see Miami, Broward, Monroe-Key West Counties and others become a province of a democratic Cuba, lol. Only on the NS world.
Viva the USA.

So that means the Cubans want the solution to be annexation by the US?

So that means the Cubans want the solution to be annexation by the US?

No I said Miami and other near by counties would be a province of an independent democratic Cuba, lol. It can only exsist in the NS world. Viva the USA my friend.

No I said Miami and other near by counties would be a province of an independent democratic Cuba, lol. It can only exsist in the NS world. Viva the USA my friend.

lol. viva the state of Cuba and Puerto Rico.Two birds with one stone. Fixes this whole Castro mess and fixes the Puerto Rico can't make up its mind mess.


PS the advice to mix Rum and Coffee from a Cuban professor is dangerous. I didn't even realize I was drunk. I drove about half a mile then just had to pull over and walk back home because I suddenly realized I was drunk off my ass.

Please read post 221 as a reference point.

I will post this article and my comments keeping with NS Jolt rules on both threads as they are related. If President Raul Castro is willing to release Cuban political prisoners within Cuba not exile. Willing to allow freedoms of the Press and Assembly awesome. Not to even mention allow multi political party elections to the Cuban National Assembly Parliament.

If President Raul Castro means to talk and proclaim Cuba as the most democratic nation in the world that respects all these rights in a one political party state than it will be more of the same stuborn hardline intransigent policy they have been proclaiming to the entire world. Time will tell.
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US, Cuba trade warmest words in half century

Obama says Cuba should make next move AP –

Vivian Sequera, Associated Press Writer – 3 mins ago

PORT-OF-SPAIN, Trinidad – The United States and Cuba are trading the warmest words in their half-century cold war. U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called Cuban President Raul Castro's latest comments a "very welcome gesture." After a series of overtures from U.S. President Barack Obama, Castro said yesterday that he is ready to talk with the U.S. and put "everything" on the table, even questions of human rights and political prisoners.

"We welcome his comments, the overture they represent and we are taking a very serious look at how we intend to respond," Clinton said while visiting the Dominican Republic on her way to the Summit of the Americas in Trinidad.

Meanwhile, the head of the Organization of American States said Friday that he will ask its members to readmit Cuba 47 years after they ousted the communist nation.

Obama and Clinton had earlier said that Havana needs to reciprocate his "good faith" gesture of removing some of the restrictions that lock Americans and their money out of Cuba. But Castro's comments seem to be helping relations move forward even without a more concrete move by Cuba on issues that have long been U.S. sticking points.

OAS Secretary-General Jose Miguel Insulza announced his intention to back Cuba's readmission to his group as Western Hemisphere leaders began arriving for 34-nation summit that excludes Cuba.

The OAS is run by consensus, and "we're going step by step," Insulza said. He said he would ask the organization's general assembly in Honduras at the end of May to annul the 1962 resolution that suspended Cuba.

The resolution called Cuba's communist system incompatible with the organization's principles and coincided with the imposition of a U.S. trade embargo. Among OAS members, only Mexico didn't break relations with Cuba at the time.

Most countries in the hemisphere have since restored diplomatic ties and have been clamoring in recent months for an end to Cuba's exclusion.

Castro's offer to discuss any and all topics with Washington — from freedom of the press to freeing political prisoners — may provide even more of a political opening.

At a meeting in Venezuela of allied nations organized by President Hugo Chavez, the Cuban chief called for the OAS to "disappear." And Chavez said the OAS remains a tool of U.S. policy.

Washington provides more than 70 percent of the organization's budget, which affords it certain privileges.

lol. viva the state of Cuba and Puerto Rico.Two birds with one stone. Fixes this whole Castro mess and fixes the Puerto Rico can't make up its mind mess.


PS the advice to mix Rum and Coffee from a Cuban professor is dangerous. I didn't even realize I was drunk. I drove about half a mile then just had to pull over and walk back home because I suddenly realized I was drunk off my ass.

Puerto Rico is not a state per se, but a commonwealth, Greedy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico

Puerto Rico is not a state per se, but a commonwealth, Greedy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico

Nanatsu, how about Cuba being a province of España La Madre Patria?

Nanatsu, how about Cuba being a province of España La Madre Patria?

Spain has enough problems with the provinces as it is, to add another one, and one that's thousands of miles away. Of course, Cubans are more than welcome to come to Spain too.

Que los cubano-gallegos se aprecian!:wink:

Puerto Rico is not a state per se, but a commonwealth, Greedy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico

That's why I am combining them So the Cubans who want to become a state will break the dead lock.

That's why I am combining them So the Cubans who want to become a state will break the dead lock.

Although both countries share common factors in their history, Cubans are quite proud of being Cuban and are proud of their country and Puerto Ricans are proud to be that, Puerto Ricans, and they're proud of their country. Merging the 2 is out of the question.

Although both countries share common factors in their history, Cubans are quite proud of being Cuban and are proud of their country and Puerto Ricans are proud to be that, Puerto Ricans, and they're proud of their country. Merging the 2 is out of the question.

Well then you Puerto Ricans Better vote to become a state or vote to Secede because if you don't do one or the other your joining with Cuba with Havana as the capitol.

Well then you Puerto Ricans Better vote to become a state or vote to Secede because if you don't do one or the other your joining with Cuba with Havana as the capitol.

I think Puerto Rico should become an independent country, Cuba should remain an idependent country. Of course, with all that's happened, I don't care either way. The problem than many Americans don't see is that these island nations have cultures of their own, cultures that are abysmaly different from the US. Not only that, neither country shares a common language with the US.

I've been visiting for 2 months already and, I can count with my fingers, and I still have fingers left, the native people in Puerto Rico who fluently speak English. Spanish is the language here. The culture here is steeped in a deep Spanish heritage, we were here for 400 years before the US came. Spain influenced Puerto Rico too much. Statehood, for the Island, is out of the question.

...Not only that, neither country shares a common language with the US.

....

You mean, except for Spanish.

You mean, except for Spanish.

I mean that, although English isn't exactly the official language of the US, both Cuba and Puerto Rico speak Spanish. And the language of the government in the US, of the laws, all that, is English. Culturally, Cuba and Puerto Rico are also extremely different to the US.

You mean, except for Spanish.

Most Americans do not speak Spanish.

I mean that, although English isn't exactly the official language of the US, both Cuba and Puerto Rico speak Spanish. And the language of the government in the US, of the laws, all that, is English. Culturally, Cuba and Puerto Rico are also extremely different to the US.

Yes, but the US and the two islands all share a common language in that Spanish is, and always has been, spoken by native speakers in those three nations.

Most Americans do not speak Spanish.

...and that has nothing to do with what I said.

I think Puerto Rico should become an independent country, Cuba should remain an idependent country. Of course, with all that's happened, I don't care either way. The problem than many Americans don't see is that these island nations have cultures of their own, cultures that are abysmaly different from the US. Not only that, neither country shares a common language with the US.

I've been visiting for 2 months already and, I can count with my fingers, and I still have fingers left, the native people in Puerto Rico who fluently speak English. Spanish is the language here. The culture here is steeped in a deep Spanish heritage, we were here for 400 years before the US came. Spain influenced Puerto Rico too much. Statehood, for the Island, is out of the question.

then why is it every time you vote you say no to both ?
Is it because Puerto Rico likes the benefits of being part of the US with out the Taxes?
Either way it has to end, or I got to become Puerto Rican.

Yes, but the US and the two islands all share a common language in that Spanish is, and always has been, spoken by native speakers in those three nations.



...and that has nothing to do with what I said.

So what are you saying? Are you saying that simply because a small minority in the US speaks spanish that we share a common language?

Well, clearly we share a common language with Vietnam too.

We really shouldve annexed them when we had the chance, *shakes head*...

We really shouldve annexed them when we had the chance, *shakes head*...

Yes we should have made it a territory while there was a window of opportunity. We should have also taken up the opportunity to annex the Yucatan when it was offered.

We really shouldve annexed them when we had the chance, *shakes head*...

Yes we should have made it a territory while there was a window of opportunity. We should have also taken up the opportunity to annex the Yucatan when it was offered.

It is never too late to fix past mistakes.

It is never too late to fix past mistakes.

touche, however could you imagine the howling that would go on about American Imperialism.

touche, however could you imagine the howling that would go on about American Imperialism.

Just ignore it like we always do.

So what are you saying? Are you saying that simply because a small minority in the US speaks spanish that we share a common language?

Well, clearly we share a common language with Vietnam too.

Spanish, unlike Vietnamese, has been spoken by a large percentage of the USian population since before the US was a nation up until the present moment.

Yes, but the US and the two islands all share a common language in that Spanish is, and always has been, spoken by native speakers in those three nations.

No common culture to share. Cubans and Puerto Ricans are as different culturally as Americans are culturally different from, say, Arabs.

then why is it every time you vote you say no to both ?
Is it because Puerto Rico likes the benefits of being part of the US with out the Taxes?
Either way it has to end, or I got to become Puerto Rican.

Yes, it seems Puerto Ricans like all the benefits of being US citizens, but prefer to be US tax exempted. The status of commonwealth suits them just fine.

Yes, it seems Puerto Ricans like all the benefits of being US citizens, but prefer to be US tax exempted. The status of commonwealth suits them just fine.

They can get together with DC and hash out some sort of trade.

Yes, it seems Puerto Ricans like all the benefits of being US citizens, but prefer to be US tax exempted. The status of commonwealth suits them just fine.

Then I need to be declared tax exempt.