NationStates Jolt Archive

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/03/26/texas-from-saved-to-doomed-in-just-6-hours/
Texas Board of Education creationist Barbara Cargill today proposed an amendment to the science standards saying that teachers have to tell their students there are different estimates for the age of the Universe. This is not even a veiled attempt to attack the Big Bang model of the Universe, which clearly, and through multiple lines of evidence, indicates the Universe is 13.7 +/- 0.12 billion years old.

So Ms. Cargill is right, if she means that "different estimates" range from 13.58 to 13.82 (given one standard deviation) billion years old.

But she doesn’t mean that at all, does she? If you read her website, you’ll see she’s an out-and-out creationist. She has a large number of, um, factual errors on her site that are clearly right out of the Creationist Obscurational Handbook.

Anyway, her antiscience amendment passed 11 - 3.

So tomorrow that will go to the final vote on whether it will be added to the standards or not. With such a majority voting to pass it along, it looks like it will pass, and Texas students will get their chance to learn that the Universe is 6000 years old, and when they try to get a job or do anything later in life, they will be routinely laughed at.

So I don't know how the vote turned out today (The article is dated yesterday). But if it passed, this could have serious negative implications for science teaching standards not just in Texas, but in the rest of the country, due to Texas' status as an adoption state, where the state board purchases textbooks for the entire state's public schools. I really, really hope some people on the board find some common sense and shoot this thing down.

Thoughts?

Comments...

er...

wow?

Christian fundamentalist state in the US tries to pretend that the Bible is superior to science, and people are suprised?

The only thing Im suprised about is that they havent done it already.

To the supreme-courtmobile!

You know, going for a gradual creation process over millions of years may not be the scientifically accepted norm,

Actually, Im pretty sure it is.

My mother, commented how the USA looks like the 'Ark' (of Noah's fame, not the Covenant).

My thoughts? guess that means the bilgewater collects in the southern states for a reason...

Note I said creation.

I know. Like I said, Im pretty sure belief in a gradual creation of the universe is the scientific "norm"

Well I suppose Texas has to claim the biggest everything, including fools.

i think that it doesnt matter what her website says, it matters what the bill says.

if the requirement can be met without resorting to stupid bible theories and with keeping to scientific theories then its not a big problem

if it requires stupid bible theories, then its unconstitutional.

I know. Like I said, Im pretty sure belief in a gradual creation of the universe is the scientific "norm"

Never mind. Apparently I don't speak anything even closely related to English.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/03/26/texas-from-saved-to-doomed-in-just-6-hours/


So I don't know how the vote turned out today (The article is dated yesterday). But if it passed, this could have serious negative implications for science teaching standards not just in Texas, but in the rest of the country, due to Texas' status as an adoption state, where the state board purchases textbooks for the entire state's public schools. I really, really hope some people on the board find some common sense and shoot this thing down.

Thoughts?
It's just political grandstanding. Even if you teach crap as science, the folks that matter will figure out that it's crap. The rest will vote Democrat and work at McDonalds.

Why didn't you let Texas and all those Southern States leave the union again?

i think that it doesnt matter what her website says, it matters what the bill says.

if the requirement can be met without resorting to stupid bible theories and with keeping to scientific theories then its not a big problem

if it requires stupid bible theories, then its unconstitutional.

Problem is, there is no way you can believe the universe is anything less then billions of years old without resorting to stupid Bible theories.

It's just political grandstanding. Even if you teach crap as science, the folks that matter will figure out that it's crap. The rest will vote Democrat and work at McDonalds.

Cute, but Creationists - you know, those idiotic MORONS that try to set their paws on state and schools - are mostly REPUBLICAN.

Why didn't you let Texas and all those Southern States leave the union again?

For the food. Where else can you get jambalaya? Or a 72 oz steak?

The rest will vote Democrat and work at McDonalds.

Wow, what a pointless and trolling sentence. Way to contribute to the conversation!

Last I checked, it was the Republicans who routinely say they dont believe in evolution. Good try though. Tell me, in your fantasy land, do the trees grow lollipops?

Cute, but Creationists - you know, those idiotic MORONS that try to set their paws on state and schools - are mostly REPUBLICAN.

Yeah, but stupidity knows no bounds.

Why didn't you let Texas and all those Southern States leave the union again?

Because everyone has to argue over whether Maryland is a Northern or a Southern State.

Cute, but Creationists - you know, those idiotic MORONS that try to set their paws on state and schools - are mostly REPUBLICAN.

Facts wont get in the way Myrmi's fantasy. They never do.

Why didn't you let Texas and all those Southern States leave the union again?

It was a good idea at the time. Kinda like sleeping with a fat girl.

Yeah, but stupidity knows no bounds.

So...you know what you said was bullshit, but you said it anyway.


So...youre a troll. Got it.

Wow, what a pointless and trolling sentence. Way to contribute to the conversation!


Only to those with very one-dimensional thought processes. Only Democrats believe whatever you tell them... Hence our current problems.

Yeah, but Republican and Republican-supported stupidity knows no bounds.

Fixed.

For the food. Where else can you get jambalaya? Or a 72 oz steak?

I'll make people Jambalaya and cut them a 72 oz steak if the South gets out. :p

Only to those with very one-dimensional thought processes. Only Democrats believe whatever you tell them... Hence our current problems.



Riiiight. Do you have anything to post worth the bandwidth?

Seriously, we all are aware of the selective history, intellectual dishonesty, and double standards you practice. Just save time and stop reminding us.

Hence our current problems.

Your "current problems" began under a Republican administration.

For the food. Where else can you get jambalaya? Or a 72 oz steak?

How do you even eat 72 oz of steak? I'm not sure I could eat 72 oz of fucking lettuce.

That being said, I'll have you know I have non-McDonalds job. Mostly.

Problem is, there is no way you can believe the universe is anything less then billions of years old without resorting to stupid Bible theories.
deus put in the OP how it can be covered as being "different estimates".

unless the bill says that it must include stupid bible theories, that covers it.

It is getting that people can't stay on topic for more than a page without it descending into off-topic bickering and name calling. Put each other on ignore.

It is getting that people can't stay on topic for more than a page without it descending into off-topic bickering and name calling. Put each other on ignore.

This.
Is.
NSG!!!

It is getting that people can't stay on topic for more than a page without it descending into off-topic bickering and name calling. Put each other on ignore.

Thank you for your great contribution. You done?

You think this would be a separation of state and church issue; only a handful of religions hold that Earth is 6000 years old (I know Christianity does, can anybody else let us know the Islamic and Jewish opinions on the matter), so it's clearly one or a few religions pushing their agenda onto a state institution.

How do you even eat 72 oz of steak? I'm not sure I could eat 72 oz of fucking lettuce.


One delicious bite at a time.

Never mind. Apparently I don't speak anything even closely related to English.

the word look familiar... but I just can't make out.. :p

I know what you meant. some just like to nitpick.

deus put in the OP how it can be covered as being "different estimates".

unless the bill says that it must include stupid bible theories, that covers it.

It's worded in such a way that a competent scientist can turn this into a lecture about understanding statistical error and the variance of experimental results.

But there are probably enough under qualified teachers in Texas who will turn this into a lesson on the 6000 year old creation.

Can Texas PLEASE seccede? With this amount of brains in politics, they'll be called American Zimbabwe in a jiffy!

You think this would be a separation of state and church issue; only a handful of religions hold that Earth is 6000 years old (I know Some parts of Christianity does, can anybody else let us know the Islamic and Jewish opinions on the matter), so it's clearly one or a few religions pushing their agenda onto a state institution.
Fixed.

But there are probably enough under qualified teachers in Texas who will turn this into a lesson on the 6000 year old creation.

And lets be honest with ourselves. Thats what this would become.

It's worded in such a way that a competent scientist can turn this into a lecture about understanding statistical error and the variance of experimental results.

But there are probably enough under qualified teachers in Texas who will turn this into a lesson on the 6000 year old creation.
they could, but it would violate state and federal law concerning seperation of church and state.

Thank you for your great contribution. You done?

:rolleyes:

And lets be honest with ourselves. Thats what this would become.
I guess it's time for atheists to homeschool their children! Fortunately, that is still legal there.

Riiiight. Do you have anything to post worth the bandwidth?

Seriously, we all are aware of the selective history, intellectual dishonesty, and double standards you practice. Just save time and stop reminding us.

It's my job to remind us of that. Like "Poor people shouldn't be involved in financial matters".

:rolleyes:

Its fucking true. Im getting real sick of certian posters only contributions to a thread being to scold other posters or complain about off topicness or the lack of content. Phycisian heal thy self.

they could, but it would violate state and federal law concerning seperation of church and state.

they could probably get away with if it they don't specifically say that the "Christian God" is the reason that the world has only existed for 6,000 years. Crediting it to a higher power (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) and leaving it at that would probably be enough to screw up people's educations yet slide under the law.

Besides, any teacher who would do that is more than likely in the type of area where this sort of shenanigan would be respected not reported.

I think that thread title is offensive to the 1600s. They were pretty bright back then.

I think that thread title is offensive to the 1600s. They were pretty bright back then.

They did, however, believe the earth was only 6000 years old.

They did, however, believe the earth was only 6000 years old.

That was the theory of one guy, who developed it in 1650. The same basic conclusion was reached a millennium early by Bede. So it wasn't new news in the 1600s.

They did, however, believe the earth was only 6000 years old.

I think that calculation was done later. Or when did Ussher live?

Texas gives me teh lulz.

And they wonder why I support the idea of Texas leaving the US...

Canada, we'll SO trade you Texas for Quebec.

Its fucking true. Im getting real sick of certian posters only contributions to a thread being to scold other posters or complain about off topicness or the lack of content. Phycisian heal thy self.

Mr. Pot, say hello to Mr. Kettle. I suspect you'll get along swimmingly.

Wow, what a pointless and trolling sentence. Way to contribute to the conversation!

Last I checked, it was the Republicans who routinely say they dont believe in evolution. Good try though. Tell me, in your fantasy land, do the trees grow lollipops?

Facts wont get in the way Myrmi's fantasy. They never do.

So...you know what you said was bullshit, but you said it anyway.


So...youre a troll. Got it.

Riiiight. Do you have anything to post worth the bandwidth?

Seriously, we all are aware of the selective history, intellectual dishonesty, and double standards you practice. Just save time and stop reminding us.

Thank you for your great contribution. You done?

And they wonder why I support the idea of Texas leaving the US...

Canada, we'll SO trade you Texas for Quebec.

Dear God, not for Quebec! Not unless they take Oklahoma too.

Dear God, not for Quebec! Not unless they take Oklahoma too.

And Utah.

the word look familiar... but I just can't make out.. :p

I know what you meant. some just like to nitpick.

You know, it would be nice if some people could understand what I'm saying, but I seriously think I must speak another language and I'm just not aware.

Do you speak Galloese?

Dear God, not for Quebec! Not unless they take Oklahoma too.

And West Virginia. *nod*

Dear God, not for Quebec! Not unless they take Mississippi too.

Fixed ya post.

By trading the Bible Belt for a beer keg, the US would be one beer keg richer.

Are you suggesting that Quebec is even worse than Texas?

And keep in mind that we don't want our northern neighbor drifting too far to the right.

they could probably get away with if it they don't specifically say that the "Christian God" is the reason that the world has only existed for 6,000 years. Crediting it to a higher power (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) and leaving it at that would probably be enough to screw up people's educations yet slide under the law.

Besides, any teacher who would do that is more than likely in the type of area where this sort of shenanigan would be respected not reported.
those people are already doing it. they dont need a law to allow them to spread the word of god.

*nudge nudge wink wink* is already unconstitutional. the supreme court isnt stupid you know.

Mr. Pot, say hello to Mr. Kettle. I suspect you'll get along swimmingly.

Notice how Ive actually said things related to the topic though. Yay you!

EDIT: Wtf why am I logged in as my puppet?

And West Virginia. *nod*

And Utah.

Fixed ya post.

*writes down* I think we may be on to something here.:wink:

By trading the Bible Belt for a beer keg, the US would be one beer keg richer.

Pero claro!

*writes down* I think we may be on to something here.:wink:

We are all in synch here, you know.;)

Are you suggesting that Quebec is even worse than Texas?

And keep in mind that we don't want our northern neighbor drifting too far to the right.

Actually, we're just trying to get rid of Texas. And Oklahoma. And Missisipi. And West Virginia. Definitely have to get rid of West Virginia.

Notice how Ive actually said things related to the topic though. Yay you!

EDIT: Wtf why am I logged in as my puppet?

Oh yes, padding your post count is okay if you say one thing on topic. The rest of the spam is totally forgivable. Good thing for that, otherwise you'd look like a hypocrite.

We can parcel them out to the UK, australia, new zealand, etc. Keep in mind, however, that the only nation where Bush is restricted by term limits is the US -- do you REALLY want to risk eight MORE years of Bush, even if it's up north?

those people are already doing it. they dont need a law to allow them to spread the word of god.

*nudge nudge wink wink* is already unconstitutional. the supreme court isnt stupid you know.

I'll take your word for it as you're a lawyer and I'm not. I always though that the separation of church and state meant that the Federal Government couldn't espouse one religion over another (to keep from having a state religion like the Church of England), not that the Federal Government couldn't have ties with/say things about religion. If that's the case then how the heck were Faith-Based Initiatives legal?

In Other News:
So, Texas (Excluding Shiner), Mississippi, Utah, West Virginia, and Oklahoma for Quebec and a keg of Labatt? Sounds like a deal to me.

We can parcel them out to the UK, australia, new zealand, etc. Keep in mind, however, that the only nation where Bush is restricted by term limits is the US -- do you REALLY want to risk eight MORE years of Bush, even if it's up north?

I'm not risking it, they are.:p He's off our hands for everything.:D

We can parcel them out to the UK, australia, new zealand, etc. Keep in mind, however, that the only nation where Bush is restricted by term limits is the US -- do you REALLY want to risk eight MORE years of Bush, even if it's up north?

It's Canada though, it's not like they have enough of a military to threaten Rhode Island, let alone another country. Granted he could fuck their environment pretty well.

Keep in mind that bush's incompetence is so destructive it slides out to other countries... :eek:

Better safe than sorry.

It's Canada though, it's not like they have enough of a military to threaten Rhode Island, let alone another country. Granted he could fuck their environment pretty well.

Keep in mind that they have the stealthiest invasions in the world (http://satirewire.com/news/july02/canada_invasion.shtml)...

It's Canada though, it's not like they have enough of a military to threaten Rhode Island, let alone another country. Granted he could fuck their environment pretty well.

Do you want Shrub in charge of the Alberta oil sands?

Actually, we're just trying to get rid of Texas. And Oklahoma. And Missisipi. And West Virginia. Definitely have to get rid of West Virginia.

Missouri, Alabama, et cetera.

Missouri, Alabama, et cetera.

Why would we get rid of Missouri? Honestly, I get the impression a lot of coast-dwellers have no idea where the conservative South actually is, because Missouri ain't it.

You know, it would be nice if some people could understand what I'm saying, but I seriously think I must speak another language and I'm just not aware.

Do you speak Galloese?

no... but it does sound similar to Juniian...

no... but it does sound similar to Juniian...

Or Nanatsui. *nod*

We can parcel them out to the UK, australia, new zealand, etc.
I can see whole countries making panicked changes to their delivery addresses.

Not the New Zealanders though. There are few enough of them that the whole country is just going to pretend to be out when the courier calls wanting a proof of delivery signature.

I'll take your word for it as you're a lawyer and I'm not. I always though that the separation of church and state meant that the Federal Government couldn't espouse one religion over another (to keep from having a state religion like the Church of England), not that the Federal Government couldn't have ties with/say things about religion. If that's the case then how the heck were Faith-Based Initiatives legal?

In Other News:
So, Texas (Excluding Shiner), Mississippi, Utah, West Virginia, and Oklahoma for Quebec and a keg of Labatt? Sounds like a deal to me.
i am not a lawyer, i just pay attention.

faith based initiatives are legal only in that the money goes to their non-religion charity expenses and has to be spent in non-denominational charity work that does not include evangelizing its clients who cannot be discriminated against for any religious belief they might have.

the supreme court has already disallowed "moments of silence" that were done with the stated reason of sneaking prayer back into school without mandating school prayer. it has disallowed "intelligent design" (i dont remember if it has ever made it to the supreme court) as a sneaky way of bringing in creationism. why would this proposal be looked at in a different way from these others?

It's just political grandstanding. Even if you teach crap as science, the folks that matter will figure out that it's crap. The rest will vote Democrat and work at McDonalds.
That's just cheap.

Or a 72 oz steak?

Scotland.

I am a Christian (Fairly liberal protestant)
I am a Scientist (Chemist)
and I am a Texan (Born and raised)

I'd be happy to comment on this, and have a respectful dialog, but there seems to be no end to the bashing of both Christians and Texans here.

Anybody want to hear my viewpoint?

Why would we get rid of Missouri? Honestly, I get the impression a lot of coast-dwellers have no idea where the conservative South actually is, because Missouri ain't it.

I have met a number persons from Missouri who have told me about it, and I do not like it. Of course, those who I have met hardly make-up a census, but it is good enough for me.

How do you even eat 72 oz of steak? I'm not sure I could eat 72 oz of fucking lettuce.

That being said, I'll have you know I have non-McDonalds job. Mostly.

There's a place out in West Texas that advertises this for miles and miles along the interstate. I don't know how anyone could do it either. I think the Simpson's parodied it some time back.

I am a Christian (Fairly liberal protestant)
I am a Scientist (Chemist)
and I am a Texan (Born and raised)

I'd be happy to comment on this, and have a respectful dialog, but there seems to be no end to the bashing of both Christians and Texans here.

Anybody want to hear my viewpoint?

Does your viewpoint acknowledge that they've proven time and time again that christianity is ridiculous and young earth creationism is even more ridiculous?

I am a Christian (Fairly liberal protestant)
I am a Scientist (Chemist)
and I am a Texan (Born and raised)

I'd be happy to comment on this, and have a respectful dialog, but there seems to be no end to the bashing of both Christians and Texans here.

Anybody want to hear my viewpoint?

This is NSG. You don't ask, you just blurt out whatever you're thinking on the subject.:D

It's my job to remind us of that. Like "Poor people shouldn't be involved in financial matters".
And that remains a true statement to this day... I'm rather proud to have it displayed every time you post.

Does your viewpoint acknowledge that they've proven time and time again that christianity is ridiculous and young earth creationism is even more ridiculous?

*sigh* Do you just bash Christianity out of some misplaced sense of superiority, or do you do it because you have had bad experiences with religion in the past?

*sigh* Do you just bash Christianity out of some misplaced sense of superiority, or do you do it because you have had bad experiences with religion in the past?

I bash all ridiculous religions, but keep in mind that we don't have parts of the govenrment trying to force women to wear burkas or force people to eat kosher. Nor do we have NSGers trying to endorse those.

I bash all ridiculous religions, but keep in mind that we don't have parts of the govenrment trying to force women to wear burkas or force people to eat kosher. Nor do we have NSGers trying to endorse those.
The problem is you view all religions as ridiculous, except Buddhism, which you view as... What was it? 25% right? In fact, I find your claims rather ridiculous, and you blanket statements about Christianity, especially in this post, where you are quite obviously trying to portray all Christians as trying to get this Creationism crap into schools.

I am a Christian (Fairly liberal protestant)
I am a Scientist (Chemist)
and I am a Texan (Born and raised)

I'd be happy to comment on this, and have a respectful dialog, but there seems to be no end to the bashing of both Christians and Texans here.

Anybody want to hear my viewpoint?

All I need from your viewpoint is a yes or no answer to one simple question:

From a scientific standpoint, is there there any likelihood that the Universe is approximately 6,000 years old?

To move this away from bashing of religions. What would happen if a Jainist or a Buddhist teacher claimed (in class) the earth always existed, just as their religion says? Or me that time started at the beginning of the Unix epoch?

The problem is you view all religions as ridiculous, except Buddhism, which you view as... What was it? 25% right?

The abrahamic religions are the msot ridiculous; that doesn't mean the eastern religions are suddenly all correct.

In fact, I find your claims rather ridiculous, and you blanket statements about Christianity, especially in this post, where you are quite obviously trying to portray all Christians as trying to get this Creationism crap into schools.

No, not all christians are trying to do that, but enough are trying -- and succeeding -- that texas schools have a noticable risk of forcing rteachers to say things as ridiculous as "Although peoiple assume that 2+2=4, it has not been proven, and therefore, you must accept the possibility 2+2=5" and "Class, remember that the history textbook was written by a man born in 1946; therefore for this week we must discuss the possibility that Poland invaded Germany, not the reverse."

To move this away from bashing of religions. What would happen if a Jainist or a Buddhist teacher claimed (in class) the earth always existed, just as their religion says? Or me that time started at the beginning of the Unix epoch?

They don't know what happened before the big bang, so it's entirely possible that the rocks that eventually formed earth did exist before it.

As for the Unix epoch, I have very good evidence that my parents were around and on earth before January 1st, 1970. Especially since I was born in 1979 to two people old enough to vote.

The abrahamic religions are the msot ridiculous; that doesn't mean the eastern religions are suddenly all correct.

How so? How are the Abrahamic Religions ridiculous?

No, not all christians are trying to do that, but enough are trying -- and succeeding -- that texas schools have a noticable risk of forcing rteachers to say things as ridiculous as "Although peoiple assume that 2+2=4, it has not been proven, and therefore, you must accept the possibility 2+2=5" and "Class, remember that the history textbook was written by a man born in 1946; therefore for this week we must discuss the possibility that Poland invaded Germany, not the reverse."
1. It's Texas. It's been backwards for quite some time now.
2. What about the many Christians that are for separation of Church and State, or what about the many Christians that believe that the Earth is, what was the latest number? 12 billion years old? I'm not much for history before man, so I'm rather uninformed as to the specifics.
3. It's friggin' Texas.
4. The dumbest people in a group are almost always the loudest.

How so? How are the Abrahamic Religions ridiculous?

1. It's Texas. It's been backwards for quite some time now.
2. What about the many Christians that are for separation of Church and State, or what about the many Christians that believe that the Earth is, what was the latest number? 12 billion years old? I'm not much for history before man, so I'm rather uninformed as to the specifics.
3. It's friggin' Texas.
4. The dumbest people in a group are almost always the loudest.

Amen! Amen! Aaaaa-meeeen!!!!

4. The dumbest people in a group are almost always the loudest.

NSG stands explained. :p

4. The dumbest people in a group are almost always the loudest.

NSG stands explained. :p

I'm doing my best to change that. :)

How so? How are the Abrahamic Religions ridiculous?

They've been proven wrong time and time again, yet some people keep insisting that they're 100% correct.

1. It's Texas. It's been backwards for quite some time now.
2. What about the many Christians that are for separation of Church and State, or what about the many Christians that believe that the Earth is, what was the latest number? 12 billion years old? I'm not much for history before man, so I'm rather uninformed as to the specifics.
3. It's friggin' Texas.
4. The dumbest people in a group are almost always the loudest.

Much of this I'll agree with. Keep in mind that I have no quarrel with most christians, but with the religion itself; just as I have no quarrel with most north koreans but with kim jong-il and the rest of their Psychotic Dictatorship.

Does your viewpoint acknowledge that they've proven time and time again that christianity is ridiculous and young earth creationism is even more ridiculous?

And Texans/Christians are called intolerant......

Anyway, as a Christian, I believe God created the earth, and man, and all things. I do not, however, believe he did it in six days, nor that he did so 6000 years ago.

People who throw that number around actually got it by analyzing dates and going back generations in the Bible. It's a bit misguided, to say the very least.

So seperation of Church and state says it can't be taught in Texas? Nope. Have a good look at the First Ammendmant:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

CONGRESS shall make no law. Doesn't say anything about individual states.

So if Texans wants this taught, it's quite legal.

If they don't, it'll get voted down.....Texans have a way of making theor voices heard (trust me on this).

Are there ways around it, if it doesn't get voted down? Well, a liberal judge could legislate it down from the bench (that happens a lot). However, for a legal course of action, non-believers in the Young Earth theory have three options.

1. Move out of State
2. Home or Private School
3. Send your kids to the schools teaching this, have them learn it to pass the test, but teach them your version of the truth at home.

Is option #3 really so bad? Considering that in high school I was expected to learn the Hindu caste system, the tenants of Islam, and the fundamentals of Sikhism, I can't seem the harm. I never converted to those religions.

Another question....lets say a person goes through school, does well, gets a diploma, but believes the earth is 6000 years old. Will that really trouble him in finding a job? I've never seen that on an employment application.

A actually work with another scientist who is a YE believer. He's not a stupid man. He has the same degree as me, and does similar work. It's just he happens to believe the theory. It doesn't interfere with his work, though. It just is the topic of some discussions.

BTW, since so many of you folks asked, the 72-ounce steak is advertised at the Big Texan Steak Ranch in Amarillo, in the Texas Panhandle. Never been there myself.

And they wonder why I support the idea of Texas leaving the US...

Canada, we'll SO trade you Texas for Quebec.

No way, Quebec saved us from a Conservative majority. They also make les tartes de sucre. They've earned their keep and we have enough conservatives in Alberta without US states, thank you.

A actually work with another scientist who is a YE believer. He's not a stupid man.

Yes, he is. YE believers are stupid by definition. It's like claiming "he's a human but he's not bipedal".

All I need from your viewpoint is a yes or no answer to one simple question:

From a scientific standpoint, is there there any likelihood that the Universe is approximately 6,000 years old?
From a scientific standpoint.....none.

And Texans/Christians are called intolerant......

Anyway, as a Christian, I believe God created the earth, and man, and all things. I do not, however, believe he did it in six days, nor that he did so 6000 years ago.

People who throw that number around actually got it by analyzing dates and going back generations in the Bible. It's a bit misguided, to say the very least.

So seperation of Church and state says it can't be taught in Texas? Nope. Have a good look at the First Ammendmant:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

CONGRESS shall make no law. Doesn't say anything about individual states.

So if Texans wants this taught, it's quite legal.

If they don't, it'll get voted down.....Texans have a way of making theor voices heard (trust me on this).

Are there ways around it, if it doesn't get voted down? Well, a liberal judge could legislate it down from the bench (that happens a lot). However, for a legal course of action, non-believers in the Young Earth theory have three options.

1. Move out of State
2. Home or Private School
3. Send your kids to the schools teaching this, have them learn it to pass the test, but teach them your version of the truth at home.

Is option #3 really so bad? Considering that in high school I was expected to learn the Hindu caste system, the tenants of Islam, and the fundamentals of Sikhism, I can't seem the harm. I never converted to those religions.

Another question....lets say a person goes through school, does well, gets a diploma, but believes the earth is 6000 years old. Will that really trouble him in finding a job? I've never seen that on an employment application.

A actually work with another scientist who is a YE believer. He's not a stupid man. He has the same degree as me, and does similar work. It's just he happens to believe the theory. It doesn't interfere with his work, though. It just is the topic of some discussions.

BTW, since so many of you folks asked, the 72-ounce steak is advertised at the Big Texan Steak Ranch in Amarillo, in the Texas Panhandle. Never been there myself.

But did you learn about those religious systems in a science classroom or in a social studies/history classroom?

Does the concept of the Universe being 6000 years old belong in a Science classroom?

Yes, he is. YE believers are stupid by definition. It's like claiming "he's a human but he's not bipedal".
thats wrong.

smart people can believe stupid things. the smarter you are the harder it can be for (lesser) people to convince you that you are wrong.

From a scientific standpoint.....none.

That's enough. As a christian and someone with a scientific background myself, all I ask is that faith has no role in science.

So seperation of Church and state says it can't be taught in Texas? Nope. Have a good look at the First Ammendmant:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

CONGRESS shall make no law. Doesn't say anything about individual states.

So if Texans wants this taught, it's quite legal.


then all those times that the supreme court ruled that states cant do this and that was....... my personal delusion because it never happened?

then all those times that the supreme court ruled that states cant do this and that was....... my personal delusion because it never happened?

It's only true if you read about it in a special book. :)

But did you learn about those religious systems in a science classroom or in a social studies/history classroom?

Does the concept of the Universe being 6000 years old belong in a Science classroom?
That's a valid question. And yes, it was a world history class (I should add that there were a whole two paragraphs in the textbook on Christianity, and there were 3 mistakes in those paragraphs).

I agree, it needs to get out of science classrooms. And that's why I'll vote it down when I am asked.

then all those times that the supreme court ruled that states cant do this and that was....... my personal delusion because it never happened?
No, it happened, and the Court was WAY overstepping it's bounds

From a scientific standpoint, is there there any likelihood that the Universe is approximately 6,000 years old?

Only in the sense that it's also possible that the universe is 100 trillion years old or was literally just created with all of our memories and knowledge also created at that time...of course, we're talking infinitesimally small possibilities.

As always, Occam's Razor cuts to the bone of this little debate.

From a scientific standpoint, is there there any likelihood that the Universe is approximately 6,000 years old?
yes*.
if the margin of error is 13 - 14 billion years.

No, it happened, and the Court was WAY overstepping it's bounds
and you think that somehow this "overstepping" wont be enforced every time a state violates the constitution?

your interpretation of the constitution isnt as important as the supreme court's interpretation.

Another question....lets say a person goes through school, does well, gets a diploma, but believes the earth is 6000 years old. Will that really trouble him in finding a job? I've never seen that on an employment application.

Good question. Technically one can argue it does not matter for quite a few jobs, although one can question if there are any other areas where the person has chosen to ignore overwhelming evidence and if his/her reasoning capabilities are up to par.
Look at it this way: truly believing the mail is delivered by flying unicorns is not a handicap for many jobs either as such. Nevertheless, employers will... hesitate... to employ people who seriously proclaim that.

A actually work with another scientist who is a YE believer. He's not a stupid man. He has the same degree as me, and does similar work. It's just he happens to believe the theory. It doesn't interfere with his work, though. It just is the topic of some discussions.

Small note: does he actually use the word "theory" as it is used in "scientific theory", or does he realise the difference ?

So seperation of Church and state says it can't be taught in Texas? Nope. Have a good look at the First Ammendmant:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

CONGRESS shall make no law. Doesn't say anything about individual states.



I suggest you have a good look at the 14th Amendment. The Due Process clause means the 1st applies to the states.

That's enough. As a christian and someone with a scientific background myself, all I ask is that faith has no role in science.

http://www.realtruth.org/articles/090203-006-science.html

They don't know what happened before the big bang, so it's entirely possible that the rocks that eventually formed earth did exist before it.

As for the Unix epoch, I have very good evidence that my parents were around and on earth before January 1st, 1970. Especially since I was born in 1979 to two people old enough to vote.

You see, they were created at the beginning of the Unix epoch with false memories of the time before to give them a sense of identity.

http://www.realtruth.org/articles/090203-006-science.html

Do you agree with this article, disagree, have you read it?

And Texans/Christians are called intolerant......

Anyway, as a Christian, I believe God created the earth, and man, and all things. I do not, however, believe he did it in six days, nor that he did so 6000 years ago.

People who throw that number around actually got it by analyzing dates and going back generations in the Bible. It's a bit misguided, to say the very least.

So seperation of Church and state says it can't be taught in Texas? Nope. Have a good look at the First Ammendmant:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

CONGRESS shall make no law. Doesn't say anything about individual states.

You are absolutely correct that the first amendment does not apply to state law. However, unfortunately for you, the US constitution does not stop after the 10th amendment.

While the first amendment applies the concept of separation of church and state ONLY to the federal government, the fourteenth amendment applies it equally to all state, local, and municipal governments as well. For example, see Tinker v. Des Moines.

While I applaud your efforts to learn the constitution, I do regret your obvious decision to stop after reading the Bill of Rights. There's more to it than that.

They've been proven wrong time and time again, yet some people keep insisting that they're 100% correct.


It's been proven that there is no God, and that Jesus Christ for certain never existed?

Much of this I'll agree with. Keep in mind that I have no quarrel with most christians, but with the religion itself; just as I have no quarrel with most north koreans but with kim jong-il and the rest of their Psychotic Dictatorship.
...

Why didn't you let Texas and all those Southern States leave the union again?

Not all of us are Idiots like the Texas School Board you know...


Although, unfortunately, it wouldnt surprise me if they tried to fuck up our kids too, come to think of it...

Do you agree with this article, disagree, have you read it?
it seems like a really logical explanaton of how the earth cant be 6k years old

It's been proven that there is no God, and that Jesus Christ for certain never existed?

...

Not quite.

(1) Jehovah existed, but was not in anyway a deity.
(2) Jesus may well have existed, but as an ordinary human (which is still enough to disprove christianity).

http://www.realtruth.org/articles/090203-006-science.html

Okay, now test for this.

Not quite.

(1) Jehovah existed, but was not in anyway a deity.
*sigh* You and your so-called proof that you refuse to reveal.

(2) Jesus may well have existed, but as an ordinary human (which is still enough to disprove christianity).
Jesus also may NOT have been an ordinary human. Biologically he MIGHT have been, but that does not necessarily disprove him as the Son of God.

it seems like a really logical explanaton of how the earth cant be 6k years old

Except for the existence of life for hundreds of millions of years.

Except for the existence of life for hundreds of millions of years.
carbon dating is flawed.

it seems like a really logical explanaton of how the earth cant be 6k years old

Okay, so you didn't read it.

carbon dating is flawed.

Explain how. Do you even know how carbon dating works? Do you understand half-lives?

carbon dating is flawed.

Carbon dating also has shit all to do about it.

*sigh* You and your so-called proof that you refuse to reveal.

Trust me, if I had a way of explaining it well, I'd be more than happy to do so. Unfortunately, I don't have a way of doing so yet -- and it doesn't help that you refuse to believe it, yet you're wmore than willing to believe even flimsier explanations that jehovah is omnipotent.

(1) Jehovah existed, but was not in anyway a deity.

So what was he then?

Carbon dating also has shit all to do about it.
were you hear for millions of years? no. how do you know how old stuff is?

Trust me, if I had a way of explaining it well, I'd be more than happy to do so. Unfortunately, I don't have a way of doing so yet -- and it doesn't help that you refuse to believe it, yet you're wmore than willing to believe even flimsier explanations that jehovah is omnipotent.
Right right. "HOW DARE YOU NOT BELIEVE ME WHEN I REFUSE TO SHOW YOU MY PROOF!"

Explain how. Do you even know how carbon dating works? Do you understand half-lives?

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/carbondating.html

do you?

were you hear for millions of years? no. how do you know how old stuff is?

Were you here when Theodore Roosevelt lived? Then how do you know he existed?:p

were you hear for millions of years? no. how do you know how old stuff is?

How do you know then?

carbon dating is flawed.

Nah - it just has a range.
Fortunately we have about a dozen other ways to date things like the age of the earth - and they all, independently, come up with similar answers.

Now what I wonder: will they also wish to teach that the earth is older than the sun ? That after all is *explicitly* stated in the Bible - while the 6000 year thing is only inference.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/carbondating.html

do you?

Yes I do, at least I have a vague grasp of it, and within a couple of sentences your article made a massive mistake and I stopped reading it.

How do you know then?
i dont nobody does we can only guess based on data but if u make the data fit your paradime then you arent being science.

were you hear for millions of years? no. how do you know how old stuff is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium-argon_dating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-lead_dating

were you hear for millions of years? no. how do you know how old stuff is?

Damnit, VS, you are too awesome! Please! do not ever leave us.

nobody does

Yes they do.

we can only guess based on data

Which is what the scientists do, and they believe the world is around 4.6 billion years old.

you arent being science.

You aren't being science?

You aren't being science?


He has ADD, how dare you demand coherence!

were you hear for millions of years? no. how do you know how old stuff is?

have you ever been to Rome? Do you not believe Rome exists?

carbon dating is flawed.

No it isn't.

Ever heard of Prometheus? No, not the Greek Titan. The tree.

See, there was a tree called Prometheus. It was 4700 years old when it was cut down by the US Forest Service in the 1940s, much to their dismay as they didn't know it was so old.

Suffice to say that it's pretty easy to see how old a tree is by counting the rings. It's also pretty easy to compare the radiocarbon dating measurements on root remnants.

So what you have is a system that has been tested and shown to be accurate back to 4700 years. Now if you accept that radiocarbon dating is flawed, all that flawed data wuld have to be compressed into the 1300 year period between the birth and death of every fossilized organism between 4700 and 6000 years ago.

Having fun yet? :)

So what was he then?

I believe the most accurate term (even by christian standards) is "minor demon" -- he was certainly far from invincible.

He has ADD, how dare you demand coherence!

Damn, I'm probably discriminating or something.

It's Canada though, it's not like they have enough of a military to threaten Rhode Island, let alone another country. Granted he could fuck their environment pretty well.

Leave the town of Rhode Island out of this.

paradime

Is this a pokémon?

http://www.creativeworlds.net/Artwork/Parasect.jpg

+

http://growabrain.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/05/13/one_dime.jpg

*writes down* I think we may be on to something here.:wink:

We are not your trash can, damnit! Find someone else to dump your garbage states on. >.<

I believe the most accurate term (even by christian standards) is "minor demon" -- he was certainly far from invincible.

And you know this how?

And you know this how?

How about the fact that I saw him die? Or is that not sufficient?

And you know this how?

If he was beat by a mortal in a wrestling match, he was far from invincible.

i dont nobody does we can only guess based on data but if u make the data fit your paradime then you arent being science.

How do you really BE Science?

And, isnt that exactly what these Bible theorists are trying to do?

No it isn't.

Ever heard of Prometheus? No, not the Greek Titan. The tree.

See, there was a tree called Prometheus. It was 4700 years old when it was cut down by the US Forest Service in the 1940s, much to their dismay as they didn't know it was so old.

Suffice to say that it's pretty easy to see how old a tree is by counting the rings. It's also pretty easy to compare the radiocarbon dating measurements on root remnants.

So what you have is a system that has been tested and shown to be accurate back to 4700 years. Now if you accept that radiocarbon dating is flawed, all that flawed data wuld have to be compressed into the 1300 year period between the birth and death of every fossilized organism between 4700 and 6000 years ago.

Having fun yet? :)

global.flood.

global.flood.

the fuck? Do you even understand the word's your saying? How does water interfere with the half life of uranium?

The sad part is, I believe he really thinks this is a great answer and he showed us.

carbon dating is flawed.

Carbon dating isn't used in dating the age of the earth.

That honor falls to (typically) U-Pb dating and Pb-Pb dating, as well as around 38 other methods.

As usual, you don't need a debate forum. You need an education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_earth#Modern_radiometric_dating

Also the next section that discusses the use of meteorites.

global.flood.

Not enough water on the entire planet.

How about the fact that I saw him die? Or is that not sufficient?

Oh god, you're delusional. When did he die then? What of? Where?

global.flood.

Are we playing "say two random words that have nothing to do with the previous post"? That's always a fun game! My contribution: "noodle airport"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium-argon_dating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-lead_dating

Damn you and your "Being online earlier."

global.flood.

Didn't happen.

the fuck? Do you even understand the word's your saying? How does water interfere with the half life of uranium?

No need to explode on the kid. He is one who makes these forums worth my time.

Are we playing "say two random words that have nothing to do with the previous post"? That's always a fun game! My contribution: "noodle airport"

That was good.

global.flood.

Bull. Shit.

global.flood.

Expand please. How exactly does the global flood "wash away" the validity of Carbon dating, as well as the validity of the dating methods that are actually used to determine the age of the earth ? And did the flood leave any other traces ?

And of course: how does the flood explain the Biblical claim that the earth is older than the sun ?

noodle airport

I think you just coined a new expression. :D

Didn't happen.

But but, the bible says it did! And the bible wouldn't lie (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html)!!

Not enough water on the entire planet.

I recall having this EXACT exchange with Tucker Island back last year. One wonders...

On an unrelated note, my friend needs to powerlevel Alchemy and there are precious few herbs on the Auction House so...

*grabs a handful of Khadgar's Whiskers and runs*

the fuck? Do you even understand the word's your saying? How does water interfere with the half life of uranium?

The sad part is, I believe he really thinks this is a great answer and he showed us.
it changed the atmosfere things degrade faster now is why noah was 900 but your grandpa was maybe 90.

you dont have a very sciencetific mind.

But but, the bible says it did! And the bible wouldn't http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.htmllie

Fixed.

Damn you and your "Being online earlier."

It's all a part of my evil plan to...um...kill time in between applying for jobs. MWAHAHAHA! :p

it changed the atmosfere things degrade faster now is why noah was 900 but your grandpa was maybe 90.

you dont have a very sciencetific mind.

Typewriter cookie!

Bull. Shit.

Actually, there was an exceedingly large flood about 10,000 years ago. Not global, but massive anyway.

it changed the atmosfere things degrade faster now is why noah was 900 but your grandpa was maybe 90.

you dont have a very sciencetific mind.

that's it. Poe.

it changed the atmosfere things degrade faster now is why noah was 900 but your grandpa was maybe 90.

you dont have a very sciencetific mind.

No, he has a scientific mind.

The mind you're showing right now is one that freely pulls random ideas out of thin air. Massive smelly piles of bullshit.

Back up the claim that atmospheric changes could promote faster decay, or concede you don't know your elbow from your ass about basic chemistry and physics.

it changed the atmosfere things degrade faster now is why noah was 900 but your grandpa was maybe 90.


But it didn't happen. What you said isn't backed up by anything.

you dont have a very sciencetific mind.

And you don't appear to have a mind at all.

it changed the atmosfere things degrade faster now is why noah was 900 but your grandpa was maybe 90.

you dont have a very sciencetific mind.

Jesus assfucking Christ get a spellchecker. You make my brain bleed.


Also explain for me the scientific mechanism of this degradation caused by the atmosphere.

It's all a part of my evil plan to...um...kill time in between applying for jobs. MWAHAHAHA! :p

Grrrr. Clearly a conspiracy involving my 3 hour lab class keeping me from posting.
I WILL HAVE MY REVENGE!!!111!!1!

it changed the atmosfere things degrade faster now is why noah was 900 but your grandpa was maybe 90.

you dont have a very sciencetific mind.

Alright, Im calling Schenanigans this thing is a troll...

I refuse to believe that this could come from a serious rational mind..


I mean, its staggering, lol...

I refuse to believe that this could come from a serious rational mind..

Serious maybe, rational no.

I mean, its staggering, lol...

Yeah, it actually makes you look intelligent. :)

Alright, Im calling Schenanigans this thing is a troll...

I refuse to believe that this could come from a serious rational mind..


I mean, its staggering, lol...

Bear in mind he claimed to be 13. So adjust expectations, but not too low. Gods know I spelled better than that at that age. Then again I wouldn't of been on a political forum, not where there's porn!

Bear in mind he claimed to be 13. So adjust expectations, but not too low. Gods know I spelled better than that at that age. Then again I wouldn't of been on a political forum, not where there's porn!

CM and WMU both joined when they were 13, and are still only 14 now. Both of them are fairly intelligent, and, CM in particular, can conduct well reasoned political arguments. This lad's an embarrassment.

Actually, there was an exceedingly large flood about 10,000 years ago. Not global, but massive anyway.

Oh, there were slightly more than one big floods in the last 10.000 years. Christmas a few years ago for instance. Not that nice for many people.

I estimate.. well, a few hundred really big ones, and a few thousand ones that did serious damage without being that big when viewed objectively. But if one has built ones entire civilisation around that body of water that suddenly overflows it tends to stick in peoples memories and tales.

Oh, there were slightly more than one big floods in the last 10.000 years. Christmas a few years ago for instance. Not that nice for many people.

I estimate.. well, a few hundred really big ones, and a few thousand ones that did serious damage without being that big when viewed objectively. But if one has built ones entire civilisation around that body of water that suddenly overflows it tends to stick in peoples memories and tales.

Hell, I cannot find a link right now. I did read an article in a magazine about a tremendous flood which covered parts of the Mediterranean and Western Europe.

But here is another flood which would have seemed like it covered the world in its time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

Serious maybe, rational no.



Yeah, it actually makes you look intelligent. :)

I do try, :p

Bear in mind he claimed to be 13. So adjust expectations, but not too low. Gods know I spelled better than that at that age. Then again I wouldn't of been on a political forum, not where there's porn!

i said over 13, that implys that im not 13 but OVER 13 or cant you read?

i said over 13, that implys that im not 13 but OVER 13 or cant you read?

So 14.

Which makes it even worse.

So 14.

Which makes it even worse.
im older than you boy. im retired now.

im older than you boy. im retired now.

This explains your inability to type a coherent sentence. Senility.

Though I don't believe you for a nanosecond.

im older than you boy. im retired now.

Oh dear. What did you do with your life :(

So 14.

Which makes it even worse.

im older than you boy. im retired now.

You see, in order to obtain his proper age, he regularly scans scripture to determine how degraded the Atmosphere is...

or something...

nanosecond.

quit making up words.

quit making up words.

Poe. Not the first to call it, but calling it now.

Total Poe. No one is THAT illiterate.

Carbon dating isn't used in dating the age of the earth.

That honor falls to (typically) U-Pb dating and Pb-Pb dating, as well as around 38 other methods.

As usual, you don't need a debate forum. You need an education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_earth#Modern_radiometric_dating

Also the next section that discusses the use of meteorites.

Well, radiocarbon dating can be used accurately to 10,000 years(more if the sample is large enough) so since the Earth is only 6000 years old, every fossil older than the Earth must be from creatures that lived between 4700 and 6000 years ago when apparently the otherwise perfectly measurable and predictable half-life of Carbon-14 apparently goes apeshit. ;)

Edit: Yes, I know my post contradicts itself. It's fun. You should try it. :)

Poe. Not the first to call it, but calling it now.

Total Poe. No one is THAT illiterate.

i was trying to joke. i want to be friends.

quit making up words.

nan⋅o⋅sec⋅ond
–noun
one billionth of a second. Abbreviation: ns, nsec

If you had known anything whatsoever about physics you would have known this word btw.

my parents said it had a pg13 rule

im older than you boy. im retired now.

Of course, it's always enjoyable when someone can get fucked by their own words.

Well, radiocarbon dating can be used accurately to 10,000 years(more if the sample is large enough) so since the Earth is only 6000 years old, every fossil older than the Earth must be from creatures that lived between 4700 and 6000 years ago when apparently the otherwise perfectly measurable and predictable half-life of Carbon-14 apparently goes apeshit. ;)

Edit: Yes, I know my post contradicts itself. It's fun. You should try it. :)

Let's be clear. Carbon dating does have its limitations. You can't use it to date marine samples due to the reservoir effect. You get a really good measurement of plants, a decent measurement of herbivores, a less decent measurement of carnivores, and a really shitty measurement of marine organisms.

But to say that carbon dating is "wrong" flat out is to display such a glaring ignorance of not only scientific evidence but plain old fucking reality that it boggles the mind.

Of course, it's always enjoyable when someone can get fucked by their own words.

It's fun. You should try it. ;)

Of course, it's always enjoyable when someone can get fucked by their own words.

look @ you with your'e searching you win, i dont know how old i am.

It's fun. You should try it. ;)

I just might, at some point if I'm feeling bored. I'm also seriously debating making VS my second ignore in over two years of posting on NSG. There's simply no arguing with someone who is either this detached from reality or this obviously trolling.

look @ you with your'e searching you win, i dont know how old i am.

Carbon date yourself. :D

Carbon date yourself. :D

What if he's over 10000 years old? :p

Carbon date yourself. :D
i heard that they carbon dated a penquin and it was alive and it showed it died a million years ago what if im really old and cant keep it up how depressing.

i heard that they carbon dated a penquin and it was alive and it showed it died a million years ago what if im really old and cant keep it up how depressing.

That is it! I have just asked to befriend this guy.

i heard that they carbon dated a penquin and it was alive and it showed it died a million years ago what if im really old and cant keep it up how depressing.

Water flowing south to the antarctic is known (this can be and has been measured) to suffer C-14 depletion as a result of the amount of transit time involved in those slow currents. Given the penguin's diet also consists largely of fish, which as I mentioned earlier have issues with carbon dating borne out of the reservoir effect, that isn't surprising at all.

Water flowing south to the antarctic is known (this can be and has been measured) to suffer C-14 depletion as a result of the amount of transit time involved in those slow currents. Given the penguin's diet also consists largely of fish, which as I mentioned earlier have issues with carbon dating borne out of the reservoir effect, that isn't surprising at all.

so it is flawed!

did you know that we have 98% dna with chimps also 50% with bananas

Are we playing "say two random words that have nothing to do with the previous post"? That's always a fun game! My contribution: "noodle airport"

Smokestack Lightning.

Also, as far as the new guy goes:
http://lemmycaution.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/successful-troll-is-successful.jpg

What if he's over 10000 years old? :p

In that case his words should carry some more weight. If the world was created 6000 years ago, he must have seen it happen.

so it is flawed!

did you know that we have 98% dna with chimps also Yes, we know that.50% with bananas Source?

Yes, we know that. Source?

http://www.thingsyoudontneedtoknow.com/dnabananas.html

so it is flawed!

No, it just cannot be used for everything. Just like a pen is great for writing, but not so great for peeling apples or making airplanes of.

so it is flawed!

did you know that we have 98% dna with chimps also 50% with bananas

And chimps eat bananas so clearly that whole "You are what you eat" stuff was also flawed.

In that case his words should carry some more weight. If the world was created 6000 years ago, he must have seen it happen.

Um...Uh...Cant compute...

http://crookedtimber.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/exploding-head.gif

so it is flawed!

did you know that we have 98% dna with chimps also 50% with bananas

No, it's not "flawed," it has known limitations. Carbon dating is a tool, and knowing what applications that tool can be used with and what applications you can't is a good way of ensuring that any dates you do obtain from carbon dating are genuine and aren't a result of those limitations. Again, it isn't rocket science.

And again, this isn't surprising either. If every organism descends from a common ancestor, we should share a large amount of DNA even with organisms that split off hundreds of millions of years ago.

http://www.thingsyoudontneedtoknow.com/dnabananas.html

Owned. :D

Smokestack Lightning.

Also, as far as the new guy goes:
http://lemmycaution.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/successful-troll-is-successful.jpg

This picture was already posted in VS's "modesty" thread.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14635463&postcount=59

What's all of this got to do with Liberia anyhow?

No, it's not "flawed," it has known limitations. Carbon dating is a tool, and knowing what applications that tool can be used with and what applications you can't is a good way of ensuring that any dates you do obtain from carbon dating are genuine and aren't a result of those limitations. Again, it isn't rocket science.

And again, this isn't surprising either. If every organism descends from a common ancestor, we should share a large amount of DNA even with organisms that split off hundreds of millions of years ago.

See, these are the sorts of problems you run into when you get all your information from books instead of from the Bible. ;)

Owned. :D

However, according to Penn State University, a human DNA sequence, if it were a half an inch of a twine, would stretch from New York to the the west coast of California. That makes that 50% seem all the more distant when you think of the whole number/complexity that the percent refers to.

A salient point from that url.

See, these are the sorts of problems you run into when you get all your information from books instead of from the Bible. ;)

You're nominally Christian, right? How is it that a clown, someone naturally talented at silliness, can be so clear on the boundaries between what can be known from science and what can be left up to faith? Especially a clown with a physics degree.

And how is it other people who SHOULD know just as well think the way...well, the way this guy does.

http://www.thingsyoudontneedtoknow.com/dnabananas.html

Page they source doesn't exist. Page they cite for the professor doesn't exist.

Fail.

Why didn't you let Texas and all those Southern States leave the union again?

We should. I'd love to see every state secede from the Union.

Smokestack Lightning.

Also, as far as the new guy goes:
http://lemmycaution.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/successful-troll-is-successful.jpg
he is not a troll. a troll posts to make you angry.

he is an attention whore. an attention whore posts to get as much attention as possible.

However, according to Penn State University, a human DNA sequence, if it were a half an inch of a twine, would stretch from New York to the the west coast of California. That makes that 50% seem all the more distant when you think of the whole number/complexity that the percent refers to.

A salient point from that url.

I still cannot believe a creationist kid provided a scientific source the instant our wry intellectual liberal showed doubt concerning a statement. It is magnificently humorous.

You're nominally Christian, right? How is it that a clown, someone naturally talented at silliness, can be so clear on the boundaries between what can be known from science and what can be left up to faith? Especially a clown with a physics degree.

And how is it other people who SHOULD know just as well think the way...well, the way this guy does.

Simple: I'm insane. :D

Page they source doesn't exist. Page they cite for the professor doesn't exist.

Fail.

It doesn't matter. Even if it were true, it's points in FAVOR of common descent, not instant *zappo* creation.

If some sky fairy *poofed* everything into existence, why would there be ANY similarity between the genetic structure of two disparate organisms?

We should. I'd love to see every state secede from the Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shattered_Union

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f1/Shattered_union_map.jpg


Im just glad it doesnt stick us with Texas, *spits*...

Simple: I'm insane. :D

This...explains much.

*decides it's time to go home and drink himself into a stupor*

It doesn't matter. Even if it were true, it's points in FAVOR of common descent, not instant *zappo* creation.

If some sky fairy *poofed* everything into existence, why would there be ANY similarity between the genetic structure of two disparate organisms?

I know I'm just trying to teach the lad to source things properly. I'm mildly surprised we share so much DNA, plants and animals split off quite a long time ago. Though it probably takes a fuckton of DNA just to get something alive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shattered_Union

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f1/Shattered_union_map.jpg


Im just glad it doesnt stick us with Texas, *spits*...

I'd like to see 50 independent states, which would eventually break up into several hundred independent counties, and then into several thousand independent cities, and so on.

I know I'm just trying to teach the lad to source things properly. I'm mildly surprised we share so much DNA, plants and animals split off quite a long time ago. Though it probably takes a fuckton of DNA just to get something alive.

Well, think about the amount of DNA 50% is, and how much room that leaves over. When you get right down to it, having 50% of your DNA as variance between yourself and a banana is actually a blisteringly large amount of space.

I'd like to see 50 independent states, which would eventually break up into several hundred independent counties, and then into several thousand independent cities, and so on.

Id like to see the Whole World do that, itd be insane! lol

Page they source doesn't exist. Page they cite for the professor doesn't exist.

Fail.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_dna_do_humans_share_with_a_banana

http://www.icr.org/article/rapidly-unraveling-thread-between-dna-human-evolut/

This...explains much.

*decides it's time to go home and drink himself into a stupor*

That helps too. *nod*

They don't know what happened before the big bang, so it's entirely possible that the rocks that eventually formed earth did exist before it.

No, it isn't. If you had studied this to high school level, or simply read one of the many excellent accounts of the subject for non-technical readers (I recommend The First Three Minutes, which is a little dated, but very good), you would know this is nonsense.


As for the Unix epoch, I have very good evidence that my parents were around and on earth before January 1st, 1970. Especially since I was born in 1979 to two people old enough to vote.

See what Rejistania said...

You see, they were created at the beginning of the Unix epoch with false memories of the time before to give them a sense of identity.

I really, really hope some people on the board find some common sense and shoot this thing down.


Common sense? Texas? The rest of the conservative US? Don't count on it. They will be pushing this for months.

Id like to see the Whole World do that, itd be insane! lol

All fun and games until Biloxi decides to go to war with Reno over who's slot machines are better,

Common sense? Texas? The rest of the conservative US? Don't count on it. They will be pushing this for months.

Idk, this is the first Ive heard of it, I dont think our School Board would stand for it, they are closer towards my end of the left-right spectrum, and almost always shoot this kind of crap down...

My state scares me with these backwards thinkers who mandate our teaching standards. :(

What bothers me the most is that teachers in this nation aren't allowed to mandate their standards. Every other profession is governed by members of their profession, but teachers have to have politicians tell them what they can and can not teach. That is total B.S.! As a future educator, it is one of the many things that frustrate me to no end.

All fun and games until Biloxi decides to go to war with Reno over who's slot machines are better,

Hmmm....

*sends envoy to Atlantic City*


THE COALITION SHALL NOT BE STOPPED! lol

i was trying to joke. i want to be friends.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/maddillphatyo/superpoe.jpg

Superpoe.

im older than you boy. im retired now.

Disfigure proceed!

I know I'm just trying to teach the lad to source things properly. I'm mildly surprised we share so much DNA, plants and animals split off quite a long time ago. Though it probably takes a fuckton of DNA just to get something alive.

The percentage probably depends on how they measure it. I mean, if you just go by the coding DNA and the noncoding DNA that does stuff for the coding DNA (it's apparently regulatory, mostly, from what I gathered from a quick internet search I did to see if one of my ideas was supported or not), then you're going to get a higher percentage than if you go for the DNA as a whole, as the overall rate of mutation in the former will be lower than in the latter. After all, there aren't exactly selective pressures against mutations that make no difference whatsoever.

Then you add in all the viral DNA floating around that inserted itself whenever.

Right I will be the one to ask it.

Have you got something better than a blog?

The percentage probably depends on how they measure it. I mean, if you just go by the coding DNA and the noncoding DNA that does stuff for the coding DNA (it's apparently regulatory, mostly, from what I gathered from a quick internet search I did to see if one of my ideas was supported or not), then you're going to get a higher percentage than if you go for the DNA as a whole, as the overall rate of mutation in the former will be lower than in the latter. After all, there aren't exactly selective pressures against mutations that make no difference whatsoever.

Then you add in all the viral DNA floating around that inserted itself whenever.

I heard the percentage of DNA we shared with chimps was 95%.

I heard the percentage of DNA we shared with chimps was 95%.

http://www.bush2004.com/images/bush_via_the_daily_mirror.jpg

Some share more than others.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/maddillphatyo/superpoe.jpg

Superpoe.

Some say his raven is 6ft tall and has a vocabulary of "Nevermore" and "You're not being science".

http://www.bush2004.com/images/bush_via_the_daily_mirror.jpg

Some share more than others.

Given that chimpanzees are, you know, intelligent, I would venture to guess that Bush shares only a minuscule percentage of DNA with them. ;)