NationStates Jolt Archive

We identify with the flag for many reasons. For me it is because I am part of something bigger. I guess because some portion of that flag is us. The individual in question. To some extent we are that flag. It affects each of us on a personal level. What it is to me is not the same as a Vietnam Vet. What it is to me is not the same as it is to 1st generation immigrant. The whole idea behind Melting Pot. You can throw away what ever you were before, now you are an American.

That right there would make her symbol, don't you think?
Not really.
We identify with the flag for many reasons. For me it is because I am part of something bigger. I guess because some portion of that flag is us. The individual in question. To some extent we are that flag. It affects each of on a personal level. What it is to me is not the same as a Vietnam Vet. What it is to me is not the same as it is to 1st generation immigrant. The whole idea behind Melting Pot. You can throw away what ever you were before, now you are an American.
So why do people go on so much about being "Irish" or whatever? And why don't you guys just say "black Americans" instead of "African Americans?"

Not really.

Splain, pweese.

Aye but yer issue there is that the Queen is a person who does a lot for the country
I don't, actually, see her as doing anything more for the country than the piece of cloth does for ours. Both simply serve as visible rallying points. Using an actual human for that seems a little wasteful (humans are more expensive to maintain than pieces of cloth).

Not really.

So why do people go on so much about being "Irish" or whatever? And why don't you guys just say "black Americans" instead of "African Americans?"

They were Irish first usually. They had enough over there for whatever reason and came over here. Don't mess with one of their flags over here either. You see more shamrocks but you do see Irish flag here and there. Italians same thing. Respect for heritage. Some pride. I have heard both and that was "politically correctness". They are whatever first but americans now.

well, I have no objection to flag burning, but theft isn't a laughing matter. The flag has a prominent place in our history - the Star-Spangled Banner at Fort McHenry, the Stars & Stripes vs. the Stars & Bars, "These colors never run," the Iwo Jima flag raising, the moon landing - the history makes it a lot more than a piece of cloth for a lot of people. I don't really understand the cloth worship myself (Why the hell am I expected to pledge allegiance to a rather flammable piece of fabric, anyway???) but it does seem like a poor choice for a boarding school style prank.

*edit* and if the tale is presented as happening within a couple decades after WW2, it's really no surprise that the Yankee scouts were so offended. The USA flag played a prominent role in Allied propaganda posters and newsreels, and was almost a sacred relic in the battle against the Kraut menace. Patriotism was akin to religion then.

Well, duh... we currently ARE living a couple of decades after WW II.
Given Stephen Fry's age, I would assume the episode took place sometime in the late 60s/early 70s, but I that's just a guess.

I can understand the motivation about the prank... the ceremoniousness of the US scouts would have been provocative to someone who from very early on was taught to sneer at self-importance and mock excessive pomp. And the prank... in all honesty, that's a pretty mild one anyway. *shrugs*

Splain, pweese.
She does important stuff, see below.
I don't, actually, see her as doing anything more for the country than the piece of cloth does for ours. Both simply serve as visible rallying points. Using an actual human for that seems a little wasteful (humans are more expensive to maintain than pieces of cloth).
Humans can also act as diplomats, as well as keeping the government in check to an extent and make a lot of money for the country as people from around the world come to see how quaint we are. Flags are for arseholes like the Swiss to show off all over the place because they think they're great.

Cabra West, I strongly feel that you have known from the start of this thread that Americans tend to have a strong patriotic and nationalistic feeling (stronger than most industrialized nations) which is identified in a few things, statue of liberty, the bald eagle, the flag etc... I think the purpose of this thread was for you to, slyly, mock American patriotism as though your lack of patriotism/nationalism and internationalism are more modern, correct and illogical while patriotism and national-loyality are the mark of the uneducated, brainwashed and are all in all, an anachronism.

But the reason you think that is that you are coming from Europe, a region where unrestrained nationalism wrecked havoc over most of the continent. Where nationalism is looked at almost always as jingoism. Add to that the fact that you are left wing and have left your native country for another and it is simply no suprise that you feel the way you oh, so obviously do about the way Americans feel towards their flag.

Idk about the seriousness and all with the flag....but, it was pretty insulting for those Brits to steal it...We shoulda just forked their yard or something, lol...Maybe paint an Ass on the Union Jack, lol...

That right there would make her symbol, don't you think?


True. Her and all the royals. All that needs to be done now is hang them out of a flagpole.

True. Her and all the royals. All that needs to be done now is hang them out of a flagpole.

We have people who can arrange things like that.....

I've recently seen an old episode of QI, in which Stephen Fry (or Alan Davis, I can't remember right now) tells this story about when he was in the Boy Scouts and went to this international convention-camp.
Apparently, the US delegation had their tents right next to the British scouts. The US scouts would - with great pomp and serenity - put up their flag each morning, and take it down every night.
At first, that greatly amused the British scouts.
After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. So one day, they stole the flag and hid it. This, apparently, almost led to an international incident. The US scouts took it very badly, and with quite exaggerated reaction, as it seemed to the Brits. After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious. Nobody had been glued to the latrines, or doused in icy water.

The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs.
So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it? As flags go, it's not even a particularly pretty one... not to ugliest, but not the prettiest, either. So why all the outrage over it getting burned now and again (which, it has to be said, is the only reason why it DOES get burned in the first place), why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about?

Americans have a weird relationship to their flag.

Brits consider the flag a symbol of things they are dedicated to.

Americans treat theirs as a god.

Americans have a weird relationship to their flag.

Brits consider the flag a symbol of things they are dedicated to.

Americans treat theirs as a god.

Idk about God...We dont have a King or Queen or anything like that, so we have a tendency to turn to our Flag for that sort of thing...When we get offended at someone doing shit to our flag, its more comparable to Brits getting offended about their Monarch...

Americans have a weird relationship to their flag.

Brits consider the flag a symbol of things they are dedicated to.

Americans treat theirs as a god.Can't be a god; I've never seen someone complain about gods being vulnerable to stealing. Stealing some property, particularly property that is important to people, like for example pictures of loved ones or (for example) flags, now that would just invoke some more or less justified anger. Especially since they just did it to get a rise out of the funny Americans. They're idiots if they think that it was "nothing" because it's nothing to them. I suppose similar logic might be used to comfort a widow: "It's okay, really. He was nothing important in the grand scheme of things - why are you so upset??"

Idk about God...We dont have a King or Queen or anything like that, so we have a tendency to turn to our Flag for that sort of thing...When we get offended at someone doing shit to our flag, its more comparable to Brits getting offended about their Monarch...

'God' isn't inappropriate - Americans actually make promises TO a flag, and agree to do it's wishes.

True. Her and all the royals. All that needs to be done now is hang them out of a flagpole.
Not while they're useful to us, no.

'God' isn't inappropriate - Americans actually make promises TO a flag, and agree to do it's wishes.

Do the Brits not make promises TO a Monarch and agree to do his or her Wishes? By that logic, Elizabeth II is a God...

Do the Brits not make promises TO a Monarch and agree to do his or her Wishes? By that logic, Elizabeth II is a God...

I haven't made any promises to any monarchs... nor had it suggested that I should. It's certainly never been an issue that anyone pushed in my direction.

The Monarchy are appointed by God though, if that helps.

Do the Brits not make promises TO a Monarch and agree to do his or her Wishes?
No.

I haven't made any promises to any monarchs... nor had it suggested that I should. It's certainly never been an issue that anyone pushed in my direction.

The Monarchy are appointed by God though, if that helps.

No.

Ah, well, I tried, lol...

I never say the Pledge anyway...

Some of this has been said already but I'll throw in my 2 cents' worth anyway.

The American flag doesn't just represent the country. It's regarded as a symbol of the people, the culture and the history.

Keep in mind that the United States of America was a country founded on ideals, not ethnicity, religion, geography or a warlord. Ideals inspired the Revolution, they inspired the Constitution, and the American Flag is a symbol of that, too.

That's why flag burning is considered by many to be such a severe sign of disrespect to the country that they will respond with great hostility to someone doing it, to the point where it was very nearly made illegal as a form of free speech.

It represents every single soldier who fought and died for the nation.

I know that in many nations the national flag is more a symbol of the government than anything else. Here, it's a symbol of the people. "I pledge allegiance to the FLAG of the United States of America." Not to its President, or to the land, or even to the Government as a whole. To the flag. To the ideals upon which this country was founded.

That's why Americans take it personally when we frak with our flag. It would be like spitting on our name.

American flag obsession can be summed up in two words: excessive nationalism. Note -- I didn't say "excessive patriotism", I said excessive nationalism. "America -- fuck yeah!", and all that.

So someone who was in Baden Pedophiles Junior Fascist brigade couldn't understand why somebody in the the US sister organization of Baden Pedophiles Junior Fascist brigade would spend so much time engaging in meaningless ritual?

I call shenanigans. Either they are making a story up to prove a point, or you are making the story up.

I mean, it's not as if scouts are a hotbed of revolutionary and anti establishment thought in the first place.

Here, it's a symbol of the people. "I pledge allegiance to the FLAG of the United States of America." Not to its President, or to the land, or even to the Government as a whole. To the flag.

This is the reason why some of my religious friends refuse to pledge. As Christians, they can't sanction bowing the knee to false idols.

The excuse that it is about the people, is just an excuse.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America AND to the Republic for which it stands". The flag is (apparently) an entity in it's own right.

So someone who was in Baden Pedophiles Junior Fascist brigade couldn't understand why somebody in the the US sister organization of Baden Pedophiles Junior Fascist brigade would spend so much time engaging in meaningless ritual?

I call shenanigans. Either they are making a story up to prove a point, or you are making the story up.

I mean, it's not as if scouts are a hotbed of revolutionary and anti establishment thought in the first place.


Idk, if this particular story is true, but, We did come close to War with Canada in a similar situation...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War

Of particular interest:

"Today the Union Jack still flies above the "British Camp", being raised and lowered daily by park rangers, making it one of the very few places without diplomatic status where US government employees regularly hoist the flag of another country."

Just thought it was kinda Ironic, lol....

This is the reason why some of my religious friends refuse to pledge. As Christians, they can't sanction bowing the knee to false idols.



Meh, I dont feel the need to tell a flag that im patriotic anyway, lol...

She does important stuff, see below.

Humans can also act as diplomats, as well as keeping the government in check to an extent and make a lot of money for the country as people from around the world come to see how quaint we are. Flags are for arseholes like the Swiss to show off all over the place because they think they're great.

I am sorry, Yootopia, but Tmutarakhan seems to be cementing my theory. Queen Elizabeth II seems to be, much to some people's chagrin, a symbol in England. You are, of course, entitled to disagree with me.

I've recently seen an old episode of QI, in which Stephen Fry (or Alan Davis, I can't remember right now) tells this story about when he was in the Boy Scouts and went to this international convention-camp.
Apparently, the US delegation had their tents right next to the British scouts. The US scouts would - with great pomp and serenity - put up their flag each morning, and take it down every night.
At first, that greatly amused the British scouts.
After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. So one day, they stole the flag and hid it. This, apparently, almost led to an international incident. The US scouts took it very badly, and with quite exaggerated reaction, as it seemed to the Brits. After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious. Nobody had been glued to the latrines, or doused in icy water.

The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs.
So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it? As flags go, it's not even a particularly pretty one... not to ugliest, but not the prettiest, either. So why all the outrage over it getting burned now and again (which, it has to be said, is the only reason why it DOES get burned in the first place), why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about?

It wasn't Fry or Davies. It was the midget, and Fry was wrong to say that we're obsessed with the flag. The Boy Scouts may salute it, and I'm sure they did, since the story took place during the Cold War, but that we use the flag to create some sense of identity that we're lacking due to the absence of a monarch is a silly - or outdated, at least -opinion. Disrupting a flag ceremony is disrespectful, and hurt some children's feelings. The midget wasn't seriously suggesting there had been an international incident.

The only explanation that seems to get pointed out now and again (between endless posts of patriotic prose) is that it got pushed up as a national point of identification.

I can understand that in the context of the 19th century, where I would imagine forming a society out of a mix of immigrants posed quite a political challenge and a flag was a simple and handy thing to use.

However, in the meantime I would argue that a quite distinctive USAmerican national identity has evolved (as is quite normal), so the clinging to the flag as something more than what it actually is seems odd to me.
I'm trying to understand why this glorification is still ongoing to this extend.
There simply is no similar symbol-cum-identification in any other nation that I'm aware of.well, considering your example of the QI show...

Well, duh... we currently ARE living a couple of decades after WW II.
Given Stephen Fry's age, I would assume the episode took place sometime in the late 60s/early 70s, but I that's just a guess.

I can understand the motivation about the prank... the ceremoniousness of the US scouts would have been provocative to someone who from very early on was taught to sneer at self-importance and mock excessive pomp. And the prank... in all honesty, that's a pretty mild one anyway. *shrugs*

back in the 60's/70's the American attitude was vastly different. Patriotism was higher back then than now. Back then, burning a flag was an Insult that would lead to violence. now it's viewed as a form of speech. Back then, saying the Pledge everyday was the norm... vastly different than now. so to argue that such a reaction back then still happens NOW is like saying Germany is still a Nazi state.

I am sorry, Yootopia, but Tmutarakhan seems to be cementing my theory. Queen Elizabeth II seems to be, much to some people's chagrin, a symbol in England. You are, of course, entitled to disagree with me.

I understand yall have a Monarch in Spain too...Im just curious How do you view it there, and what is its function to you?

I understand yall have a Monarch in Spain too...Im just curious How do you view it there, and what is its function to you?

King Juan Carlos I is merely a figure-head. He does appear as head of the constitutional monarchy, he's the king, but the law making and decisions really fall upon the Prime Minister. In this case, to José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero. We respect the king, but we don't think he's omnipresent nor omnipotent. His function is much like that of Queen Elizabeth II in England.

So someone who was in Baden Pedophiles Junior Fascist brigade couldn't understand why somebody in the the US sister organization of Baden Pedophiles Junior Fascist brigade would spend so much time engaging in meaningless ritual?

I call shenanigans. Either they are making a story up to prove a point, or you are making the story up.

I mean, it's not as if scouts are a hotbed of revolutionary and anti establishment thought in the first place.

FWIW I saw the episode of QI Cabra referred to. It did have exactly that story in it.


Incidentally, it also mentioned that the biggest burners of US flags is the aforementioned Junior Fascist brigade.

King Juan Carlos I is merely a figure-head. He does appear as head of the constitutional monarchy, he's the king, but the law making and decisions really fall upon the Prime Minister. In this case, to José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero. We respect the king, but we don't think he's omnipresent nor omnipotent. His function is much like that of Queen Elizabeth II in England.

Question: Who was Carlos V, and why is he on my chocolate bar? Thanks!

Question: Who was Carlos V, and why is he on my chocolate bar? Thanks!

Carlos V was the son of Juana La Loca, daughter of King Fernando I and Queen Isabella of Castile, the patrons of Christopher Colombus. He was emperor of Spain during the golden age of the Spanish colonization of the Americas. As to why he's on your chocolate bar... beats me.

So why do a large amount of US Americans take insult when somebody denigrates the flag?

Because it is an insult to every single American living and dead.

Carlos V was the son of Juana La Loca, daughter of King Fernando I and Queen Isabella of Castile, the patrons of Christopher Colombus. He was emperor of Spain during the golden age of the Spanish colonization of the Americas. As to why he's on your chocolate bar... beats me.

Nice! Explains why he's on Mexico's most popular chocolate bar. Mystery solved. :D

You do realize that was fiction -- entertainment -- yes?

Apparently, sharing an anecdote on a quiz show lends special credence to it.

"USAmericans"? Who the hell are you, Miss Teen South Carolina?

I've recently seen an old episode of QI, in which Stephen Fry (or Alan Davis, I can't remember right now) tells this story about when he was in the Boy Scouts and went to this international convention-camp.
Apparently, the US delegation had their tents right next to the British scouts. The US scouts would - with great pomp and serenity - put up their flag each morning, and take it down every night.
At first, that greatly amused the British scouts.
After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. So one day, they stole the flag and hid it. This, apparently, almost led to an international incident. The US scouts took it very badly, and with quite exaggerated reaction, as it seemed to the Brits. After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious. Nobody had been glued to the latrines, or doused in icy water.

The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs.

It's no surprise that certain representatives of certain decadent and effete cultures "couldn't comprehend the reaction." Since they no longer have much respect for, or have the will or motivation to defend, their own cultures, I wouldn't expect them to understand people who do.

So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it? As flags go, it's not even a particularly pretty one... not to ugliest, but not the prettiest, either. So why all the outrage over it getting burned now and again (which, it has to be said, is the only reason why it DOES get burned in the first place), why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about?

The issue isn't whether or not it's "pretty". The issue is "the Republic for which it stands." Real Americans respect the flag precisely because of what it represents. They take it seriously. Those who disrespect it disrespect what it represents (regardless of any dishonest statements to the contrary they may make), and are so perceived. Those who destroy it hate what it represents, and are so perceived. The sentiments are returned toward such disrespecters.

Real Americans respect the flag precisely because of what it represents.

Cherokee?

They respect it because it represents genocide?

Cherokee?

They respect it because it represents genocide?

Always gracious in defeat, those Cherokee.

Some of this has been said already but I'll throw in my 2 cents' worth anyway.

The American flag doesn't just represent the country. It's regarded as a symbol of the people, the culture and the history.

Keep in mind that the United States of America was a country founded on ideals, not ethnicity, religion, geography or a warlord. Ideals inspired the Revolution, they inspired the Constitution, and the American Flag is a symbol of that, too.

That's why flag burning is considered by many to be such a severe sign of disrespect to the country that they will respond with great hostility to someone doing it, to the point where it was very nearly made illegal as a form of free speech.

It represents every single soldier who fought and died for the nation.

I know that in many nations the national flag is more a symbol of the government than anything else. Here, it's a symbol of the people. "I pledge allegiance to the FLAG of the United States of America." Not to its President, or to the land, or even to the Government as a whole. To the flag. To the ideals upon which this country was founded.

That's why Americans take it personally when we frak with our flag. It would be like spitting on our name.

Very well stated. Thanks!

Cherokee?

No, not "Cherokee."

They respect it because it represents genocide?

No "genocide" ever took place.

You are not nearly as clever as you think you are. :p

Always gracious in defeat, those Cherokee.

Maybe. I've seen indians buying American flags for the Fourth at a Wal-Mart in Oklahoma, within the 'Cherokee Nation'. Then again, I don't think we ever attempted genocide on the Cherokee, at least intentionally.

I've recently seen an old episode of QI, in which Stephen Fry (or Alan Davis, I can't remember right now) tells this story about when he was in the Boy Scouts and went to this international convention-camp.
Apparently, the US delegation had their tents right next to the British scouts. The US scouts would - with great pomp and serenity - put up their flag each morning, and take it down every night.
At first, that greatly amused the British scouts.
After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. So one day, they stole the flag and hid it. This, apparently, almost led to an international incident. The US scouts took it very badly, and with quite exaggerated reaction, as it seemed to the Brits. After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious. Nobody had been glued to the latrines, or doused in icy water.

The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs.
So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it? As flags go, it's not even a particularly pretty one... not to ugliest, but not the prettiest, either. So why all the outrage over it getting burned now and again (which, it has to be said, is the only reason why it DOES get burned in the first place), why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about?

Hmm, partly because George Washington refused to become King and partly because Alexander Hamlition didn't get his way about making the US an elected Monarchy, mainly because the only person people could agree on was Washington.

Seriously though, its difficult to explain an emotional response to an object without geting an emotional response. The United States Flag is imporant because of what it represents in peoples minds, but the exact reasons tend to be personal and different. To me it represents the unity of the fifty states and the untainted ideals for which people lived and died for to bring about and preserve.

When I see people disrepecting the flag wither they are burning it, flying it tattered instead of properly disposing and replacing because of laziness, to me it seems they are disrepecting the ideals on which this country was built upon and which hold the country together.

No, not "Cherokee."


You confused me with your talk of 'real' Americans.


No "genocide" ever took place.


Are you posting from Iran?


You are not nearly as clever as you think you are. :p

Actually, I'm pretty much as clever as I think I am. I don't have an especially inflated conception of my own intelligence.

That ... makes sense. Quite a lot actually. It called up in my mind the ceremonies and rituals that the Eastern German government invented to try and instill a separate identity (as in, separate from Western Germany at the time) in the population, and enable them to distinguish themselves emotionally from the other half of the country. It did succeed much more than many had thought, with many of the ceremonies still being carried on in the Eastern countries even today.

Aye, the American people largely do these ceremonies to themselves, without any particular effort on the part of the federal government--with the exception of our quadrennial Presidential inauguration--these sorts of things are done for reinforcement effects.

The question for me is, though, why go for something this abstract, and why go about it so religiously? In Eastern Germany, there was pressure from the government on the people to comply and go along with their measures, but I don't think there was any such pressure in the US. So why go for the flag rather than set up a football team to play along with the rest of the world? The national identities in every single nation state on the planet had to start growing at one point, they didn't just appear overnight.

It's a naturally slow process, and these little ceremonies are a phase in it. The US, though, is exceedingly slow according to several factors that have been put forward by several researchers. The obvious ones being the sheer geo- and demographic size of the United States. Even excepting Alaska, the US is very large--the state of Montana, for instance, is roughly similar in size to all of modern Germany. This has led to a particular sense of regionalism that has slowed the process.

Constant immigration from non-homogeneous groups has also served to delay the process. Not that it's a bad thing, mind you, I'm one of the strongest supporters of immigration--it keeps a society evolving and vibrant--but it slows the development of national identity. Oftentimes, because of how immigration functioned, you'll find that the people from certain ethnicities tended to settle in similar areas. Which is why, for instance, in the Midwest you'll find more people who claim German ancestry than live in Germany.

Let's not forget the relatively decentralized nature of the US federal system. States have created nations around them. The French state actively sought to create a French nation--the active stamping out of Patois by the French government being the classical exhibit. The US central government doesn't have the ability to enforce language rules--let alone structure a culture.

I'm slightly worried now that in this scenario, USAmerican identity will suffer from stunted growth, forever trapped in the slightly naive adoration of abstract symbols, rather than finding similarities between its inhabitants in everyday life and identify with them.

Don't worry--it's a slow process, but it's proceeding.



And I'm doing my damndest not to go off on a tangent about the "Psychology of Terror" (no, it's not centered on terrorism). How national identity is actually vitally important towards alleviating our individual mortality salience by creating a form of symbolic immortality and all of that.




You're turning on my social scientist.

I believe that it is associated with the concept of wanting to make the pledge of Allegiance mandatory, without actually knowing what the words mean

as a random survey, ask an american (i am one) what a republic is and whether they live in one or not.

<snip>


Because the BSA renders respect to the flag in the same way the military does. And to take the flag is offensive because, though it may seem a mere piece of cloth to someone from another country, it is a symbol of the country those Scouts were from. It's the whole, "never let the flag fall into enemy hands..." and all. (Not saying that they viewed the Brits as enemies, but the nicking of the flag is considered offensive).

As a counter, I know of an Army NCO who got in trouble for telling Princess Di jokes to Paras.

You confused me with your talk of 'real' Americans.

Wasn't something similar to this discussed already when the US elections were drawing near? Something about the ''real America'' and all that jazz? I seem to remember something the like.

Wasn't something similar to this discussed already when the US elections were drawing near? Something about the ''real America'' and all that jazz? I seem to remember something the like.

Yeah, it was probably the same guy, too...

It makes me wonder what all the other Americans are, and how you know you aren't real. Do they know they aren't real? Silly really - if they're not real, how could they know anything...

Wasn't something similar to this discussed already when the US elections were drawing near? Something about the ''real America'' and all that jazz? I seem to remember something the like.

Sarah Palin (President 2010!) divided America into "real" and "fake" America.

A flag is a symbol. I leave symbols to the symbol-minded.

Unreasonable devotion isn't a US concept altogether, but I'd wager it's more common here than anywhere else.

Sarah Palin (President 2010!) divided America into "real" and "fake" America.

I believe it looked something like this...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Jesusland_map.svg/600px-Jesusland_map.svg.png


Red of course being real, and Blue being fake...

Sarah Palin (President 2010!) divided America into "real" and "fake" America.

:rolleyes:

It seems like you're in favor of that division. Not surprising when considering you don't know when your own country's next Presidential election is.

:rolleyes:

It seems like you're in favor of that division. Not surprising when considering you don't know when your own country's next Presidential election is.

I think it may have been a joke...

:rolleyes:

It seems like you're in favor of that division. Not surprising when considering you don't know when your own country's next Presidential election is.

srsly?

Yeah, it was probably the same guy, too...

It makes me wonder what all the other Americans are, and how you know you aren't real. Do they know they aren't real? Silly really - if they're not real, how could they know anything...

It's like being in Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. What's real and what's not seems to be, in the case of the US and its politics, something relative. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? If they're not real then... how can one explain baseball? Does that means pizza ain't real? Was I living on the twilight zone those 2 years I spent in MI? Am I real? Gods, I'm losing it!:eek2:

srsly?

Well, you're the one who typed "President 2010", you tell me.

I think it may have been a joke...

That may be so, but without a smiley or other indication, and with the grievous error on the date of the next election, how was I to know?

That may be so, but without a smiley or other indication, and with the grievous error on the date of the next election, how was I to know?

That's how. I'm a political science major concentrating in American government, and while you didn't know that before, now you do.

As an american, do I respect the flag? Of coruse. But do I overreact the way the OP suggested? Don't be ridiculous! It's just a piece of cloth with a certain pattern on it -- when a delusional foreigner burns an american flag, it's not as if they're burning actual americans!

That may be so, but without a smiley or other indication, and with the grievous error on the date of the next election, how was I to know?

Ah, yeah, I have that problem too, when Im not serious I generally give a courteous "lol" or a smiley...It has led to people complaining that I use "lol" too much though, lol....

But yeah, without an indication its hard to distinguish it, ala Poe's Law...

I don't give you a give-away because its more amusing to me to watch whomever overreact.

It's like being in Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. What's real and what's not seems to be, in the case of the US and its politics, something relative. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? If they're not real then... how can one explain baseball? Does that means pizza ain't real? Was I living on the twilight zone those 2 years I spent in MI? Am I real? Gods, I'm losing it!:eek2:

I must be real, or I wouldn't be here, right?

If I learned anything from the Cheshire Cat, it's that I'm real. And how to disappear leaving just a grin.

Was I living on the twilight zone those 2 years I spent in MI?

Yes, but mostly because you were in Lansing.

Having read this thread, I've come to the conclusion that the Brits don't actually have many (any?) symbols. There are lots of things that are seen as stereotypically British such as drinking tea or discussing the weather or fish and chips, but non that brits have much emotional investment in, beyond a self-deprecating chuckle. Our flag is a bit like a pictorial name badge for our boats, and queenie is just there doing what she does - we'd sack her if we could think of a better arrangement and if we weren't worried that it would negatively affect tourism. Britain just is, and perhaps we have a strong enough sense of our own Britishness to find symbols and outward nationalism a little ostentatious.

So perhaps that explains why we don't understand the American attachment to their flag, but it still doesn't explain why the American's have it and other young countries such as Australia (also founded on their refusal to be British) don't. I'm not sure if that's what Cabra West was asking, but its something I'd like to understand. I suppose that its possible a greater percentage of early Australians were former British and so perhaps shared more cultural references from the start? Perhaps an Ausie can give their perspective on their national symbols?

Having read this thread, I've come to the conclusion that the Brits don't actually have many (any?) symbols. There are lots of things that are seen as stereotypically British such as drinking tea or discussing the weather or fish and chips, but non that brits have much emotional investment in, beyond a self-deprecating chuckle. Our flag is a bit like a pictorial name badge for our boats, and queenie is just there doing what she does - we'd sack her if we could think of a better arrangement and if we weren't worried that it would negatively affect tourism. Britain just is, and perhaps we have a strong enough sense of our own Britishness to find symbols and outward nationalism a little ostentatious.

So perhaps that explains why we don't understand the American attachment to their flag, but it still doesn't explain why the American's have it and other young countries such as Australia (also founded on their refusal to be British) don't. I'm not sure if that's what Cabra West was asking, but its something I'd like to understand. I suppose that its possible a greater percentage of early Australians were former British and so perhaps shared more cultural references from the start? Perhaps an Ausie can give their perspective on their national symbols?

Well, Im not Austrailian, but considering that they still use the Union Jack in their flag, and still have Elizabeth II as Queen, presumably they still consider themselves as having some British attachments...


Im almost positive Canada does, as From what ive read about their politics, they still have strong British ties, at least from what Ive read about their Conservatives...

I've recently seen an old episode of QI, in which Stephen Fry (or Alan Davis, I can't remember right now) tells this story about when he was in the Boy Scouts and went to this international convention-camp.
Apparently, the US delegation had their tents right next to the British scouts. The US scouts would - with great pomp and serenity - put up their flag each morning, and take it down every night.
At first, that greatly amused the British scouts.
After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. So one day, they stole the flag and hid it. This, apparently, almost led to an international incident. The US scouts took it very badly, and with quite exaggerated reaction, as it seemed to the Brits. After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious. Nobody had been glued to the latrines, or doused in icy water.

The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs.
So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it? As flags go, it's not even a particularly pretty one... not to ugliest, but not the prettiest, either. So why all the outrage over it getting burned now and again (which, it has to be said, is the only reason why it DOES get burned in the first place), why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about?

We Americans, being a big melting pot, as it were, of various cultures, don't really have a culture that we can call American. So instead of rallying around our culture and celebrating that, we instead use what common symbols and such we do have, one being the flag.

I'd draw an analogy but I'm not sure of what I'd draw it to, so I'm not going to try. Just think of it as a cultural symbol for Americans.

It's not surprising the Boy Scouts were upset. The flag was an object they treated with great pomp and seriousness, and when the other Scouts (who also happened to be British) stole it, the Scouts saw it as an insult to their country. I'm having a hard time siding with the thieving Scouts here.

Now, as to why the Scouts and other Americans venerate the flag is the first place is less obvious. I'm not really sure why. All countries have their sacred symbols, maybe the US's just happens to be its flag. We don't have a monarch, or an ancestral language we can look to.

The flag is a great symbol, that probably is one of the main reasons.

As for the scouts getting upset, maybe they did enjoy it, but my guess is that at least some of those scouts were doing that because of tradition or that is what they always do. Their huge reaction when it was stolen was probably in part because of the disrespect that is to America. You can laugh, but if you're going to do that you'd better be able to fight.

Can anybody else name something that's American that we could actually venerate?

Besides the flag, what national symbol do we have that is truly original to America alone?

Can anybody else name something that's American that we could actually venerate?

Besides the flag, what national symbol do we have that is truly original to America alone?

Coca Cola. Though there are quite a few Pepsi heretics out there...
Baseball.
Football.
Fucking Basketball! Go Dr. Naismith! Go KU!

Nothing as important as the flag, though.

Coca Cola. Though there are quite a few Pepsi heretics out there...
Baseball.
Football.
Fucking Basketball! Go Dr. Naismith! Go KU!

Nothing as important as the flag, though.There are three current types of flags that are in standard use as of this moment. Each have the same design, just different sizes.

There are how many types of Pepsi/Coca Cola, baseball teams and leagues, football teams and leagues, and basketball teams and leagues?

What I'm saying is, do we really have anything else?

Can anybody else name something that's American that we could actually venerate?

Besides the flag, what national symbol do we have that is truly original to America alone?

The Blues.

And therefore, by extension and evolution:

Jazz, Rock, Pop, Soul, R&B, Country/Western, Gospel, Rap, and damn near any other music that can trace its roots back to the blues.

That's how. I'm a political science major concentrating in American government, and while you didn't know that before, now you do.

I do, and wish I didn't, for I don't care. It means nothing. Your background or studies don't make you or anyone else immune from howling errors.

I don't give you a give-away because its more amusing to me to watch whomever overreact.

Right. You're posting that now, long after the fact. Fine by me. You can sit back in your chair and chuckle at how clever you think you are, while I sit back in mine and wonder how badly anyone who thinks there's only two years between Presidential election cycles will fare in PoliSci.

The Blues.

And therefore, by extension and evolution:

Jazz, Rock, Pop, Soul, R&B, Country/Western, Gospel, Rap, and damn near any other music that can trace its roots back to the blues.Interesting.

Interesting.

Absolutely.

If you were looking for something more tangible, you could argue for the telephone, the computer, electric light, radio, practical TV, and the P-51 (or the F-14, if you simply MUST have jet engines).

Of course Americans venerate their flag. They ain't got no history. Just like Chelsea.

Of course Americans venerate their flag. They ain't got no history. Just like Chelsea.

Right. No history. Pull the other one.

Right. No history. Pull the other one.

Well, considering that America's greatest historical moment was electing Obama...

Well, considering that America's greatest historical moment was electing Obama...

Are you really going to toe the NeoCon line that hard? Now who's flamebaiting?

Are you really going to toe the NeoCon line that hard? Now who's flamebaiting?

Hey, I'm not the one who goes around saying "We elected an African-American! It's the greatest thing to happen to our country ever!". I hear that from your Americans and you media.

It's even more annoying when you say that it's a landmark in world history. You're telling us what our history is?

Well, considering that America's greatest historical moment was electing Obama...Right, because you've taken how many courses in American history?

Right, because you've taken how many courses in American history?

Enough to know that the country's only been around for 250 odd years.

Enough to know that the country's only been around for 250 odd years.

Umm k...that tells us nothing...

Umm k...that tells us nothing...

Two and a half centuries isn't a history, it's a postcard.

Enough to know that the country's only been around for 250 odd years.

I would agree that those years have been odd. So that's all you've got, is it? Pretty pathetic. Seems the deficiency isn't my nation's history, it's your knowledge. Might wanna look into that before trying to speak on the subject again.

Two and a half centuries isn't a history, it's a postcard.

And what long-historied independent nation do you live in?

Oh...sorry.

Enough to know that the country's only been around for 250 odd years.Thank you for adding thirty-odd years in which the United States of America didn't exist to our history.

Two and a half centuries isn't a history, it's a postcard.

*sigh* It's not the quantity, it's the quality dammit.

And what long-historied independent nation do you live in?

Oh...sorry.

Who cares? I'm a wog.

Who cares? I'm a wog.

So perhaps you should shut your cakehole when you don't know what you're talking about, then.

Perhaps an Ausie can give their perspective on their national symbols?

An Aussie did, way back at the start of this thread:

Australia's flag has got someone else's in the corner. I've never felt as if its my flag.

I felt this way too, growing up. I seriously believed that by the time I was able to vote, I'd be voting as a citizen of a republic.

If I can outlast Her Maj, I probably will, eventually.

Australian flags tend to get used like this:

On official buildings, as a warning -- Here be bureaucrats.

On corporate HQ, as camouflage -- See, we're really an Orzie firm, you Orzies, buy our stuff!

In front yards -- refugee Australians, saying Look! We're safe at last! (We hope.)

In back yards -- second-generation, doing their rebellion bit (We're not Yourcountry, Mum and Dad, we're Australians); but they've already got the "slightly embarrassed about this flag carry-on" Australian thing, so it's definitely backyard.

Sticking out of car back windows: well, when your team's won something and you're hooning round, that's what you do.

On beaches: For some reason, the Australian-flag printed towels are usually made of good quality, more absorbent towelling, so they're good on beaches.

If you really want to insult an Australian, don't bother with the flag, trash our beer.

An Aussie did, way back at the start of this thread:



I felt this way too, growing up. I seriously believed that by the time I was able to vote, I'd be voting as a citizen of a republic.

If I can outlast Her Maj, I probably will, eventually.

Australian flags tend to get used like this:

On official buildings, as a warning -- Here be bureaucrats.

On corporate HQ, as camouflage -- See, we're really an Orzie firm, you Orzies, buy our stuff!

In front yards -- refugee Australians, saying Look! We're safe at last! (We hope.)

In back yards -- second-generation, doing their rebellion bit (We're not Yourcountry, Mum and Dad, we're Australians); but they've already got the "slightly embarrassed about this flag carry-on" Australian thing, so it's definitely backyard.

Sticking out of car back windows: well, when your team's won something and you're hooning round, that's what you do.

On beaches: For some reason, the Australian-flag printed towels are usually made of good quality, more absorbent towelling, so they're good on beaches.

If you really want to insult an Australian, don't bother with the flag, trash our beer.

Well, I can't trash something that's trash already, and that's Foster's. I can't say I've tried any other Aussie beer. Most of the imports are European or Japanese in stores around here. What other labels are Australian?

Well, I can't trash something that's trash already, and that's Foster's.

Nobody in the country, ever, drinks Fosters. Fosters is actually Australian for "Silly Americans".

Australia is not an independent country. It doesn't have the wherewithal.

Nobody in the country, ever, drinks Fosters. Fosters is actually Australian for "Silly Americans".

Well, as I said, I've got nothing for comparison. Start exporting more.

Well, as I said, I've got nothing for comparison. Start exporting more.

Ummm, er ... it doesn't travel well. Besides, it's got to be drunk in the right atmosphere. Hemisphere. Pub.

Surely an NSG fact-finding tour could be organised? :D

Ummm, er ... it doesn't travel well. Besides, it's got to be drunk in the right atmosphere. Hemisphere. Pub.

Surely an NSG fact-finding tour could be organised? :D

Can we do it in all the bars in Sydney?

Ummm, er ... it doesn't travel well. Besides, it's got to be drunk in the right atmosphere. Hemisphere. Pub.

Surely an NSG fact-finding tour could be organised? :D

Fair dinkum. Just bring those Qantas airfares down out of the four-digit range, and I'll be glad to make the trip. Also, put a "u" in Qantas, wouldja? It just looks weird.

Absolutely.

If you were looking for something more tangible, you could argue for the telephone, the computer, electric light, radio, practical TV, and the P-51 (or the F-14, if you simply MUST have jet engines).
Other countries would claim almost all of those, so you'd probably getting several arguments breaking out.

An Aussie did, way back at the start of this thread:

Yes, I read that - I was really wondering whether there are other things that Aussies feel a more strong connection to or see as more inherently Australian, rather than the flag. That is, some other symbol that has the same importance as the American flag to some Americans.



I felt this way too, growing up. I seriously believed that by the time I was able to vote, I'd be voting as a citizen of a republic.

If I can outlast Her Maj, I probably will, eventually.

Australian flags tend to get used like this:

On official buildings, as a warning -- Here be bureaucrats.

On corporate HQ, as camouflage -- See, we're really an Orzie firm, you Orzies, buy our stuff!

In front yards -- refugee Australians, saying Look! We're safe at last! (We hope.)

In back yards -- second-generation, doing their rebellion bit (We're not Yourcountry, Mum and Dad, we're Australians); but they've already got the "slightly embarrassed about this flag carry-on" Australian thing, so it's definitely backyard.

Sticking out of car back windows: well, when your team's won something and you're hooning round, that's what you do.

On beaches: For some reason, the Australian-flag printed towels are usually made of good quality, more absorbent towelling, so they're good on beaches.

If you really want to insult an Australian, don't bother with the flag, trash our beer.

This is an insight - thank you.

Can anybody else name something that's American that we could actually venerate?

Besides the flag, what national symbol do we have that is truly original to America alone?

Maybe this is where my confusion stem from... why is there a need to venerate anything about your country to that extend?

As has been pointed out, the Brits like their queeny and regard her with a bit of self-irony and a bit of nostalgia, but hardly any deep emotions.
The Irish patriotism manifests itself once a year with a rainy parade and some wilted greens pinned to their coats, after which they usually get drunk and abuse their counry themselves (and Ireland, as a country, is younger than the US).
Most other countries that I know of are much the same. For all I know, the US is the only country with this emotional need to venerate its own symbols. And I'm trying to get at the reason for it in this thread

Aye, the American people largely do these ceremonies to themselves, without any particular effort on the part of the federal government--with the exception of our quadrennial Presidential inauguration--these sorts of things are done for reinforcement effects.



It's a naturally slow process, and these little ceremonies are a phase in it. The US, though, is exceedingly slow according to several factors that have been put forward by several researchers. The obvious ones being the sheer geo- and demographic size of the United States. Even excepting Alaska, the US is very large--the state of Montana, for instance, is roughly similar in size to all of modern Germany. This has led to a particular sense of regionalism that has slowed the process.

Constant immigration from non-homogeneous groups has also served to delay the process. Not that it's a bad thing, mind you, I'm one of the strongest supporters of immigration--it keeps a society evolving and vibrant--but it slows the development of national identity. Oftentimes, because of how immigration functioned, you'll find that the people from certain ethnicities tended to settle in similar areas. Which is why, for instance, in the Midwest you'll find more people who claim German ancestry than live in Germany.

Let's not forget the relatively decentralized nature of the US federal system. States have created nations around them. The French state actively sought to create a French nation--the active stamping out of Patois by the French government being the classical exhibit. The US central government doesn't have the ability to enforce language rules--let alone structure a culture.



Don't worry--it's a slow process, but it's proceeding.



And I'm doing my damndest not to go off on a tangent about the "Psychology of Terror" (no, it's not centered on terrorism). How national identity is actually vitally important towards alleviating our individual mortality salience by creating a form of symbolic immortality and all of that.




You're turning on my social scientist.

Thank you. I have to say that your posts in this thread have been the most insightful ones by far, and did indeed help me get an understanding of US mentality regarding their flag veneration.
Also, as Junii has pointed out, this veneration seems to be on the decline somewhat since the time of the incident that I used to illustrate my question.
It remains to be seen which way things will develop so. :)

Yes, I read that - I was really wondering whether there are other things that Aussies feel a more strong connection to or see as more inherently Australian, rather than the flag. That is, some other symbol that has the same importance as the American flag to some Americans.

To give you the serious answer you and this thread deserve -- because the American flag-waving does puzzle us furriners, and I've seen more believable answers here than usual in such conversations -- I don't think you can find a single symbol that's as important to every Australian because the thing we really venerate is an idea.

If you did a rollcall of all the Aussies on this board I bet you'd get different answers from each one, as far as the symbols go.

But lots of our stories involve little guys who manage, by sticking together, to avoid being stomped on; preferably in a way that pokes fun at the big guys.

We feel uneasy about flags and suchlike because if we took it seriously we'd be on the way to being big-guy clones ourselves.

Other countries would claim almost all of those, so you'd probably getting several arguments breaking out.

They could, but they'd be wrong. Unless they've got patents on working models filed before Edison, Morse, Marconi, et al..

How about the bald eagle as an American symbol?

I've recently seen an old episode of QI, in which Stephen Fry (or Alan Davis, I can't remember right now) tells this story about when he was in the Boy Scouts and went to this international convention-camp.
Apparently, the US delegation had their tents right next to the British scouts. The US scouts would - with great pomp and serenity - put up their flag each morning, and take it down every night.
At first, that greatly amused the British scouts.
After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. So one day, they stole the flag and hid it. This, apparently, almost led to an international incident. The US scouts took it very badly, and with quite exaggerated reaction, as it seemed to the Brits. After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious. Nobody had been glued to the latrines, or doused in icy water.

The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs.
So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it? As flags go, it's not even a particularly pretty one... not to ugliest, but not the prettiest, either. So why all the outrage over it getting burned now and again (which, it has to be said, is the only reason why it DOES get burned in the first place), why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about?
There's a similar thing here in Canada; there was supposedly a whole load of indignation at Danny Williams' decision to remove the Canadian flag from parliament as a protest of Paul Martin's policies on equalization payments. I remember in grade 10 writing class someone said "my grandfather in World War 2 risked his life to make sure that flag was standing"

For whatever reason, I held back at the time, but I thought they risked their life to protect the world from fascist aggression. Well, if they risked their lives over a piece of cloth, they did the right thing for the wrong reasons, and I'm not particularily inclined to respect that, regardless of what social norms say about it.

How about the bald eagle as an American symbol?

It's a great bird, but it's not exclusive to the US.

There's a similar thing here in Canada; there was supposedly a whole load of indignation at Danny Williams' decision to remove the Canadian flag from parliament as a protest of Paul Martin's policies on equalization payments. I remember in grade 10 writing class someone said "my grandfather in World War 2 risked his life to make sure that flag was standing"

For whatever reason, I held back at the time, but I thought they risked their life to protect the world from fascist aggression. Well, if they risked their lives over a piece of cloth, they did the right thing for the wrong reasons, and I'm not particularily inclined to respect that, regardless of what social norms say about it.

Spot on. Nobody ever died for a flag.

How about the bald eagle as an American symbol?

Psh, that shouldve been a Turkey...Eagle's a bloody scavenger...

Psh, that shouldve been a Turkey...Eagle's a bloody scavenger...

Which all carnivores are. Lions will scavenge.

Your opinion of eagle scavenging will change the moment you see one pluck a fish out of water or a mouse out of a field. It's just plain amazing, no matter how often I see it. Fortunately, I live within good access to such potential sights.

It's a great bird, but it's not exclusive to the US.

Maybe not as a bird, but as a symbol?

The flag is a representation for an idea.

The flag represents Americans, who were at one point the pushed around, by the UK. They stood up to them, the UK pretty much said, "Hell, let 'em go, it's not worth the expense and travel to keep going back there and beating them bloody" and we've been bantams ever since.

To have stood up to the British Navy, a symbol of one of the most powerful empires on earth at the time, pounding the shit out of Baltimore Harbor and having the harbor and the flag still be there in the morning -- well, that was an accomplishment for a bunch of poorly armed rebels. So the idea is, nyah! we can stand up to you big guys and endure!

Maybe not as a bird, but as a symbol?

Lots of nations have eagles as symbols.

Which all carnivores are. Lions will scavenge.

Your opinion of eagle scavenging will change the moment you see one pluck a fish out of water or a mouse out of a field. It's just plain amazing, no matter how often I see it. Fortunately, I live within good access to such potential sights.

lol, actually, it wasnt my Opinion of it, it was Benjamin Franklin's:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Turkey#Turkey_as_U.S._national_bird

“For my own part I wish the Bald Eagle had not been chosen the Representative of our Country. He is a Bird of bad moral character. He does not get his Living honestly. You may have seen him perched on some dead Tree near the River, where, too lazy to fish for himself, he watches the Labour of the Fishing Hawk; and when that diligent Bird has at length taken a Fish, and is bearing it to his Nest for the Support of his Mate and young Ones, the Bald Eagle pursues him and takes it from him.

With all this Injustice, he is never in good Case but like those among Men who live by Sharping & Robbing he is generally poor and often very lousy. Besides he is a rank Coward: The little King Bird not bigger than a Sparrow attacks him boldly and drives him out of the District. He is therefore by no means a proper Emblem for the brave and honest Cincinnati of America who have driven all the King birds from our Country...

I am on this account not displeased that the Figure is not known as a Bald Eagle, but looks more like a Turkey. For the Truth the Turkey is in Comparison a much more respectable Bird, and withal a true original Native of America... He is besides, though a little vain & silly, a Bird of Courage, and would not hesitate to attack a Grenadier of the British Guards who should presume to invade his Farm Yard with a red Coat on.”...

I was mostly joking however, lol...

They could, but they'd be wrong. Unless they've got patents on working models filed before Edison, Morse, Marconi, et al..

"OMFG I so patented that firzt!!1!" Doesn't mean you invented something, it just means you were the first to the patent office or had the best lawyers. Light bulb being the classic example; there's about 5 people who could all claim they had something to do with it....

Back OT, I think everyone can understand that the flag is a symbol, that it represents ideals. That doesn't necessarily answer "why the flag?" though. Where does the tradition of school children pledging allegiance to the flag originate?

What I find puzzling is how much it is venerated, how so much is invested emotionally in just that one symbol. I can't think of anything similar for other countries (but that may be because my brain is lazy)

They could, but they'd be wrong. Unless they've got patents on working models filed before Edison, Morse, Marconi, et al..

Well lets see.

Telephone. Earliest was a patent caveat by an Italian which expired. The US house of representatives acknowledged him as the inventory apparently.

Compter: depends on what you call a computer. Babbage's difference engine etc. But no real justification for claiming it as American.

Electric Light. Shedload of electric lights before Edison. From Sir Humphrey Davy, through various others and Joseph Swan etc.

Radio: Again very disputed. Hertz apparently did the first transmission and reception of radio waves. Tesla arguably has a stronger claim than Marconi.

TV, entirely dependant on what you define as practical. Fairly strong American claim though.

F-51 is certainly an American plane.


So out of 6. 1 definite. 1 arguable with strongest claim (imho) being US. 1 arguable with the US being level with other claims. and 3 that weren't American.

Well lets see.

Telephone. Earliest was a patent caveat by an Italian which expired. The US house of representatives acknowledged him as the inventory apparently.

Compter: depends on what you call a computer. Babbage's difference engine etc. But no real justification for claiming it as American.

Electric Light. Shedload of electric lights before Edison. From Sir Humphrey Davy, through various others and Joseph Swan etc.

Radio: Again very disputed. Hertz apparently did the first transmission and reception of radio waves. Tesla arguably has a stronger claim than Marconi.

TV, entirely dependant on what you define as practical. Fairly strong American claim though.

F-51 is certainly an American plane.


So out of 6. 1 definite. 1 arguable with strongest claim (imho) being US. 1 arguable with the US being level with other claims. and 3 that weren't American.

Yes, all very well and good, but in what country were they made practical? An invention doesn't really do anything unless it's produced for public consumption. I'll grant the actual concepts weren't US. But the medium in which those concepts grew to fruition certainly were.

Yes, all very well and good, but in what country were they made practical? An invention doesn't really do anything unless it's produced for public consumption. I'll grant the actual concepts weren't US. But the medium in which those concepts grew to fruition certainly were.

Selling people things in an attempt to make money? That idea's just a little bit older than America.

What other labels are Australian?
how about some Australian wine?

A lot of people pooh-pooh Australian table wines. This is a pity as many fine Australian wines appeal not only to the Australian palate but also to the cognoscenti.

Black Stump Bordeaux is rightly praised as a peppermint flavored Burgundy, whilst a good Sydney Syrup can rank with any of the world's best sugary wines.

Château Blue, too, has won many prizes; not least for its taste, and its lingering afterburn.
Old Smokey 1968 has been compared favorably to a Welsh claret, whilst the Australian Wino Society thoroughly recommends a 1970 Coq du Rod Laver, which, believe me, has a kick on it like a mule: eight bottles of this and you're really finished. At the opening of the Sydney Bridge Club, they were fishing them out of the main sewers every half an hour.

Of the sparkling wines, the most famous is Perth Pink. This is a bottle with a message in it, and the message is 'beware'. This is not a wine for drinking, this is a wine for laying down and avoiding.

Another good fighting wine is Melbourne Old-and-Yellow, which is particularly heavy and should be used only for hand-to-hand combat.

Quite the reverse is true of Château Chunder, which is an appellation contrôlée, specially grown for those keen on regurgitation; a fine wine which really opens up the sluices at both ends.

Real emetic fans will also go for a Hobart Muddy, and a prize winning Cuvee Reserve Château Bottled Nuit San Wogga Wogga, which has a bouquet like an aborigine's armpit.

how about some australian wine?

classic!

how about some Australian wine?
Nothing at ALL wrong with Australian wine. I'm drinking some right now.

Selling people things in an attempt to make money? That idea's just a little bit older than America.

Swing and a miss.

Possessing the market that drives invention faster than it was ever driven in the rest of the world.

Nothing at ALL wrong with Australian wine. I'm drinking some right now.

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pleasedon'tbeYellowTail
pleasedon'tbeYellowTail
pleasedon'tbeYellowTail...

Nothing at ALL wrong with Australian wine. I'm drinking some right now.

I really wouldn't know. that review is from Mr Python. You know... Monty. :p

Swing and a miss.

Possessing the market that drives invention faster than it was ever driven in the rest of the world.

'We did it bigger, so we did it better'. Gotcha.

'We did it bigger, so we did it better'. Gotcha.

Is that what I said? If that's how you have to read it to assuage...whatever you're assuaging, that's fine. Inaccurate, but fine.

We feel uneasy about flags and suchlike because if we took it seriously we'd be on the way to being big-guy clones ourselves.

Australians still raise hell if the flag is disrespected, though.

The flag represents Americans, who were at one point the pushed around, by the UK. They stood up to them, the UK pretty much said, "Hell, let 'em go, it's not worth the expense and travel to keep going back there and beating them bloody" and we've been bantams ever since.

Technically you were pushed around by Great Britain, not the UK.

After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious.
The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs.
So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it?

The flag represents the nation and all the nation stands for; liberty, freedom and justice. Much blood has been shed for those principles and ideals and for this nation. The flag is far more than "just a piece of cloth" it is a symbol of this nation, all it stands for, and those who have died protecting it.

I put a flag up on my house this week. Today I noticed the flag was ripped and torn. Americans do not fly ripped and torn flags so I replaced it with a new one. The old ripped and torn flag has been folded an placed in a shelf in the closet. I will take it to the American Legion so they can properly dispose of it.

I must be real, or I wouldn't be here, right?

If I learned anything from the Cheshire Cat, it's that I'm real. And how to disappear leaving just a grin.

But... but... I am the cat.:eek2:

Yes, all very well and good, but in what country were they made practical? An invention doesn't really do anything unless it's produced for public consumption. I'll grant the actual concepts weren't US. But the medium in which those concepts grew to fruition certainly were.

Eh, I disagree with your point and can't be bothered to go back through the interwebs to check, at least a couple of those were practical prior to the US getting hold with them. I don't think widespread selling of a product makes something American.

^ This level of indoctrination is why you USians are so obsessive over your flag. You patriots recite those words without actually understanding what they mean, or how they relate to you. You become puppets of the propaganda your culture forces down your throat.

Your insults will work better when you don't mix your metaphors quite so obtusely.

Yes, yes... this and similar emotional things have been posted before.
It doesn't really answer the question why the USAmericans make so much more fuss about their flag than any other nation I can think of.

Look, I have to admit that I started skimming after page 18, so if somebody's already posted this I apologize, but it seems to me pretty obvious that the particular American reverence for the flag emerges from the particulars of American history. Bear with me for a moment -- OK, 3 points:

1.) As others have pointed out already, the flag was the original symbol of a country that wasn't quite sure at its beginning whether it was a country or not. The US, as compared to Europe, lacks other signs of nationhood (shared ethnic history, language, cuisine, etc.) (Note that the flag that became known as the US Flag was, in fact, the battle standard, which folks would have identified with our first national narrative, having seen it in prints of Washington beating back bits of the British and so forth. The original peacetime flag of the US is now, I believe, the standard of the Coast Guard.)

2.) The U.S. Civil War both heightened Americans' sense of themselves as a single nation and heightened resistance to that idea. This was a war of brother against brother in a way that many other countries' internal conflicts are not: it had essentially no ethnic or religious element to make one side appear to be "the other". The war was perceived as a battle over whether the U.S. would continue to exist as a country. In the face of that existential threat, the North waxed nationalistic and reverence for the flag -- the same flag that was flying at the head of the North's invading armies -- became a political statement. (This is not to imply that Southerners are unpatriotic, but to note that the flag has for a long time symbolized not just "Union" but "Union, or else".)

3.) The U.S. luckily avoided most of the 20th-century carnage that left Europe highly ambivalent about nationalism. While thousands of Americans fought in WWI and II, America didn't have its cities wiped out, didn't have its borders redrawn and then redrawn again, wasn't left to build monuments to two missing generations of young men. Europe after WWII rebuilt itself with a twice-burned-three-times-shy suspicion of national sentiment, while much of the rest of the world suffered through the pangs of decolonization (or, if you prefer, the birth of neo-colonialism,) that stuck many nations with flags that represented governments more than they did peoples. The U.S., meanwhile, retreated victorious, retaining its now-old-fashioned national pride.

So there you are: we Americans love our flag because a) it's pretty much the only thing that represents us, b) we had to make a conscious decision whether we were "us" or not (and we're still not entirely sure,) and c) we didn't have our nationalism whupped out of us.

Your insults will work better when you don't mix your metaphors quite so obtusely.



Look, I have to admit that I started skimming after page 18, so if somebody's already posted this I apologize, but it seems to me pretty obvious that the particular American reverence for the flag emerges from the particulars of American history. Bear with me for a moment -- OK, 3 points:

1.) As others have pointed out already, the flag was the original symbol of a country that wasn't quite sure at its beginning whether it was a country or not. The US, as compared to Europe, lacks other signs of nationhood (shared ethnic history, language, cuisine, etc.) (Note that the flag that became known as the US Flag was, in fact, the battle standard, which folks would have identified with our first national narrative, having seen it in prints of Washington beating back bits of the British and so forth. The original peacetime flag of the US is now, I believe, the standard of the Coast Guard.)

2.) The U.S. Civil War both heightened Americans' sense of themselves as a single nation and heightened resistance to that idea. This was a war of brother against brother in a way that many other countries' internal conflicts are not: it had essentially no ethnic or religious element to make one side appear to be "the other". The war was perceived as a battle over whether the U.S. would continue to exist as a country. In the face of that existential threat, the North waxed nationalistic and reverence for the flag -- the same flag that was flying at the head of the North's invading armies -- became a political statement. (This is not to imply that Southerners are unpatriotic, but to note that the flag has for a long time symbolized not just "Union" but "Union, or else".)

3.) The U.S. luckily avoided most of the 20th-century carnage that left Europe highly ambivalent about nationalism. While thousands of Americans fought in WWI and II, America didn't have its cities wiped out, didn't have its borders redrawn and then redrawn again, wasn't left to build monuments to two missing generations of young men. Europe after WWII rebuilt itself with a twice-burned-three-times-shy suspicion of national sentiment, while much of the rest of the world suffered through the pangs of decolonization (or, if you prefer, the birth of neo-colonialism,) that stuck many nations with flags that represented governments more than they did peoples. The U.S., meanwhile, retreated victorious, retaining its now-old-fashioned national pride.

So there you are: we Americans love our flag because a) it's pretty much the only thing that represents us, b) we had to make a conscious decision whether we were "us" or not (and we're still not entirely sure,) and c) we didn't have our nationalism whupped out of us.

Excellent post...while mine was more directed at the OP, I also touched on the fact that nationalism was equated with jingoism after WWII in Europe.

Cabra West, I strongly feel that you have known from the start of this thread that Americans tend to have a strong patriotic and nationalistic feeling (stronger than most industrialized nations) which is identified in a few things, statue of liberty, the bald eagle, the flag etc... I think the purpose of this thread was for you to, slyly, mock American patriotism as though your lack of patriotism/nationalism and internationalism are more modern, correct and logical while patriotism and national-loyality are the mark of the uneducated, brainwashed and are all in all, an anachronism.

But the reason you think that is that you are coming from Europe, a region where unrestrained nationalism wrecked havoc over most of the continent. Where nationalism is looked at almost always as jingoism. Add to that the fact that you are left wing and have left your native country for another and it is simply no suprise that you feel the way you oh, so obviously do about the way Americans feel towards their flag.

Maybe this is where my confusion stem from... why is there a need to venerate anything about your country to that exten(t)?Because we never had a war to beat our nationalism out of us. I believe, more like hope, that it is going to stay that way.

Unless, you know, you wish massive death and destruction upon the US for some odd reason.

Because we never had a war to beat our nationalism out of us. I believe, more like hope, that it is going to stay that way.

Unless, you know, you wish massive death and destruction upon the US for some odd reason.

No, most certainly not.
But does it really take that much to turn the gaze from inward to outward?

No, most certainly not.
But does it really take that much to turn the gaze from inward to outward?Outward to what?

I put a flag up on my house this week. Today I noticed the flag was ripped and torn. Americans do not fly ripped and torn flags so I replaced it with a new one. The old ripped and torn flag has been folded an placed in a shelf in the closet. I will take it to the American Legion so they can properly dispose of it.

Why not just burn it yourself? That is the correct way to dispose of the flag and how the legion should dispose of it if they are doing it correctly.

Well I suppose they got pissed off about it because someone stole something that not only belongs to them but also means something important to them. It doesn't matter what it may mean to other people it may have significant importance to them.

After all I have a small keyring that has significant meaning to me, now for some people this may just mean it is a piece of metal that you can hold keys on, but if it was stolen I would be more angry and upset than if another keyring was taken from me.

Although I think Americans go over the top at least they have their own flag.

Australia's flag has got someone else's in the corner. I've never felt as if its my flag.

What are you talking about?

The flag represents the nation and all the nation stands for; liberty, freedom and justice. Much blood has been shed for those principles and ideals and for this nation. The flag is far more than "just a piece of cloth" it is a symbol of this nation, all it stands for, and those who have died protecting it.

I put a flag up on my house this week. Today I noticed the flag was ripped and torn. Americans do not fly ripped and torn flags so I replaced it with a new one. The old ripped and torn flag has been folded an placed in a shelf in the closet. I will take it to the American Legion so they can properly dispose of it.

Which means, ironically, that they will burn it.

Well I suppose they got pissed off about it because someone stole something that not only belongs to them but also means something important to them. It doesn't matter what it may mean to other people it may have significant importance to them.

After all I have a small keyring that has significant meaning to me, now for some people this may just mean it is a piece of metal that you can hold keys on, but if it was stolen I would be more angry and upset than if another keyring was taken from me.

This. ^

The British scouts stole it because they were assholes. How was one group's reverence in any way an inconvenience to them? "Oooh, they like that, LET'S FUCK WITH IT." It's childish.

Technically you were pushed around by Great Britain, not the UK.
Really? You know, when I made that distinction a week ago in the Alternate History thread, I was told off for daring to say that it was NOT the UK we broke away from.

Irony.

The British scouts stole it because they were assholes. How was one group's reverence in any way an inconvenience to them? "Oooh, they like that, LET'S FUCK WITH IT." It's childish.This. ^

I mean, seriously. Did the US scouts honoring their flag cause any harm to the British scouts? I very seriously doubt it.

This. ^

The British scouts stole it because they were assholes. How was one group's reverence in any way an inconvenience to them? "Oooh, they like that, LET'S FUCK WITH IT." It's childish.

Of course it was... I'm not sure if you're familiar with the scouts, but it's an organisation for CHILDREN.

Fair dinkum. Just bring those Qantas airfares down out of the four-digit range, and I'll be glad to make the trip. Also, put a "u" in Qantas, wouldja? It just looks weird.

What would the "u" stand for?

Can we do it in all the bars in Sydney?

There was talk of an NS meet up in Sydney.

Of course it was... I'm not sure if you're familiar with the scouts, but it's an organisation for CHILDREN.

Sorry but what has that got to do with it?

Of course it was... I'm not sure if you're familiar with the scouts, but it's an organisation for CHILDREN.Surely they have supervisors of some form that were either there when the flag was taken, or were not there. Both of which are potentially bad.

Who cares? I'm a wog.

A wog? Well that explains a lot more about you then.

This. ^

The British scouts stole it because they were assholes. How was one group's reverence in any way an inconvenience to them? "Oooh, they like that, LET'S FUCK WITH IT." It's childish.

They did it because they knew the Americans would react in this way. Which is what makes it hilarious.

Don't the novelty factor run out soon, seeing that it's overused in almost every way?

Sorry but what has that got to do with it?

Expecting grow-up behaviour from children is... well, childish, isn't it?

Nobody is defending what they did, and yes, of course it was childish. A lot of things that children do tend to be childish, I don't really get why so many people here seem to think that's an outrage.

I'm not so much concerned with what the British scouts did, which was a stupid prank. I've started this thread because the reaction of the USAmerican scouts was as surprising and bemusing to me as it was to those British kids.

Of course it was... I'm not sure if you're familiar with the scouts, but it's an organisation for CHILDREN.

Uh...and it purports to teach children values and morals. I'd assume one of those would be "thou shalt not steal" from a commandment standpoint, but another might be, "you don't get to be an asshole without cause" from a common sense standpoint.

What would the "u" stand for?

*does quick Wiki search*

"Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Services"

*smacks forehead*

I did not know that it was an acronym all these years. I feel dumb.

The question remains, though, why pronounce it as if it did have a "u" in it? Why not pronounce it "KAHN-tuss"? Just curious.

Surely they have supervisors of some form that were either there when the flag was taken, or were not there. Both of which are potentially bad.

Tell me, were you supervised 24/7 when you were a child, aged somewhere around 12 years old?

What would the "u" stand for?

Uusikaarlepyy :p

They did it because they knew the Americans would react in this way. Which is what makes it hilarious.

Don't the novelty factor run out soon, seeing that it's overused in almost every way?

Hilarious? Rather it makes the Brits brats. That whole ethos of immediately disparaging something you don't do? Yeah, that's what starts a cycle of violence.

Expecting grow-up behaviour from children is... well, childish, isn't it?

How is it at all exclusively grown-up to respect others' property?

Nobody is defending what they did, and yes, of course it was childish. A lot of things that children do tend to be childish, I don't really get why so many people here seem to think that's an outrage.

I don't think anyone's outraged. Personally, I get annoyed at the presumption that it's okay to take the piss out of someone who's not pissing on anyone else. Now, if the US scouts were being obnoxious or in some way disturbing others with their flag reverence, that obviates my annoyance completely, and I'd agree that the theft was not just hilarious, but justified.

I'm not so much concerned with what the British scouts did, which was a stupid prank. I've started this thread because the reaction of the USAmerican scouts was as surprising and bemusing to me as it was to those British kids.

I can agree with that.

Tell me, were you supervised 24/7 when you were a child, aged somewhere around 12 years old?On trips to foreign places? Hell, yes, I was.

Tell me, were you supervised 24/7 when you were a child, aged somewhere around 12 years old?

Of course not. However, by then, I'd learned not to mess with other people's belongings.

why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about?

Beats me. As for me, I didn't even wave the flag when Italy won the world championship. I don't own a flag - and I feel none the less patriotic.

I guess that maybe the US citizens have fewer symbols of their unity and identity than the average european country, so they've developed a stronger attachment to the ones they have, like the flag, the anthem, Mount Rushmore and Lady Liberty. But it's just a guess.

*does quick Wiki search*

"Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Services"

*smacks forehead*

I did not know that it was an acronym all these years. I feel dumb.

The question remains, though, why pronounce it as if it did have a "u" in it? Why not pronounce it "KAHN-tuss"? Just curious.

'Cause in english standalone "q" isn't allowed. It's always in the digraph "qu".

I don't think anyone's outraged. Personally, I get annoyed at the presumption that it's okay to take the piss out of someone who's not pissing on anyone else. Now, if the US scouts were being obnoxious or in some way disturbing others with their flag reverence, that obviates my annoyance completely, and I'd agree that the theft was not just hilarious, but justified.After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. So one day, they stole the flag and hid it.Theft is legal because something annoys me? ...Why didn't I know this sooner? :(

Uh...and it purports to teach children values and morals. I'd assume one of those would be "thou shalt not steal" from a commandment standpoint, but another might be, "you don't get to be an asshole without cause" from a common sense standpoint.



As far as I'm aware, the scouts aren't a religious organisation.
As for values and morals, do you think kids only get to join if they can proof they have those?

Expecting grow-up behaviour from children is... well, childish, isn't it?

Nobody is defending what they did, and yes, of course it was childish. A lot of things that children do tend to be childish, I don't really get why so many people here seem to think that's an outrage.

I'm not so much concerned with what the British scouts did, which was a stupid prank. I've started this thread because the reaction of the USAmerican scouts was as surprising and bemusing to me as it was to those British kids.

Ah I see I thought you were going to be making some indoctrination point.

We like our flags too, but don't need to flash it constantly. We flag on official flag days, which is the Monarchy family's birthdays and such (maybe 15 days a year), at births and deaths. And on the national day.

pleasedon'tbeYellowTail
pleasedon'tbeYellowTail
pleasedon'tbeYellowTail
pleasedon'tbeYellowTail
pleasedon'tbeYellowTail
pleasedon'tbeYellowTail
pleasedon'tbeYellowTail...
I've had Yellowtail, yes. It's a serviceable table wine and one to cook with. I've also had Leasingham Bin 7's Riesling, as well as other brands.

Theft is legal because something annoys me? ...Why didn't I know this sooner? :(

Jeez, no of course it's not legal.
However, there is a concept of "proportions". You don't send someone for execution for stealing a pen, do you? And by the same measure, it's quite surprising the scouts' prank very nearly had political consequences.

Theft is legal because something annoys me? ...Why didn't I know this sooner? :(

*facepalm*

That's not what I said, or what I meant, and you know it.

Theft as a prank is justified if the object or owner in question is obnoxious or in some way causing legitimate distress.

Just not liking the way a group venerates a flag is no reason to steal it as a prank. If that veneration woke everyone up an hour early, or involved deafening noise or some other gross imposition, you'd have a legitimate pretense.

Beats me. As for me, I didn't even wave the flag when Italy won the world championship. I don't own a flag - and I feel none the less patriotic.

I guess that maybe the US citizens have fewer symbols of their unity and identity than the average european country, so they've developed a stronger attachment to the ones they have, like the flag, the anthem, Mount Rushmore and Lady Liberty. But it's just a guess.No, France has a "Lady Liberty" as well.

*does quick Wiki search*

"Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Services"

*smacks forehead*

I did not know that it was an acronym all these years. I feel dumb.

The question remains, though, why pronounce it as if it did have a "u" in it? Why not pronounce it "KAHN-tuss"? Just curious.

haha :)

Because KAHN-tuss just sounds strange as opposed to KWAN-tuss. I have no idea really that's just how it is pronounced maybe because Queensland has a "u" in it and it is an acronym rather than a word.

Uusikaarlepyy :p

hehe

Ah I see I thought you were going to be making some indoctrination point.

Depends on perspective.
From the point of view of the British scouts, the USAmerican group must have seemed indoctrinated indeed. I'm trying to get to the psychological root of this behaviour.

I've had Yellowtail, yes. It's a serviceable table wine and one to cook with. I've also had Leasingham Bin 7's Riesling, as well as other brands.

As long as you don't wax poetic on how GOOOOOOOD Yellowtail is. I'm tired of the praise it gets for merely being Australian (I would grudgingly agree with "serviceable"). Bin 7, OTOH, is good.

Jeez, no of course it's not legal.
However, there is a concept of "proportions". You don't send someone for execution for stealing a pen, do you? And by the same measure, it's quite surprising the scouts' prank very nearly had political consequences.

I agree.

haha :)

Because KAHN-tuss just sounds strange as opposed to KWAN-tuss. I have no idea really that's just how it is pronounced maybe because Queensland has a "u" in it and it is an acronym rather than a word.

*smacks own forehead again, harder*

Of course.

I'm'a stop posting now and go stick my tongue in a fan. :confused:

*facepalm*

That's not what I said, or what I meant, and you know it.

Theft as a prank is justified if the object or owner in question is obnoxious or in some way causing legitimate distress.

Just not liking the way a group venerates a flag is no reason to steal it as a prank. If that veneration woke everyone up an hour early, or involved deafening noise or some other gross imposition, you'd have a legitimate pretense.

Pranks need a justification??? :eek:

Wow, now I need to know : How do you justify the cow on the roof of the MIT that was put there as a student prank in the 1930s?

*facepalm*

That's not what I said, or what I meant, and you know it.

Theft as a prank is justified if the object or owner in question is obnoxious or in some way causing legitimate distress.

Just not liking the way a group venerates a flag is no reason to steal it as a prank. If that veneration woke everyone up an hour early, or involved deafening noise or some other gross imposition, you'd have a legitimate pretense....Aw, you took me seriously. :(

Lady Liberty.
^ ^
Who is a French immigrant. :)

On trips to foreign places? Hell, yes, I was.

Really? Wow... I know I certainly wasn't. Especially not on school or youth group trips.

As long as you don't wax poetic on how GOOOOOOOD Yellowtail is. I'm tired of the praise it gets for merely being Australian (I would grudgingly agree with "serviceable"). Bin 7, OTOH, is good.


I'm sure Yellowtail is comprised of part of the glut. Now Wynn's is a good winery to drink.

Pranks need a justification??? :eek:

Wow, now I need to know : How do you justify the cow on the roof of the MIT that was put there as a student prank in the 1930s?

A prank usually has some kind of poke at authority or popularity or other assumption as it's basis. You don't usually prank those you really like, or if you do, you don't make it a heinous one.

As for the cow on MIT's roof? You'd have to ask the pranksters. Students pranking institutions is a kind of poke at authority, so that might have been it.

Have you always been so literal?

No, France has a "Lady Liberty" as well.

I know... but who takes notice of that one when you have the Tour Eiffel, the Louvre, Les Invalides, the Concorde, the TGV and half of the Mont Blanc?

...Aw, you took me seriously. :(

You posted seriously. Sorry.

Really? Wow... I know I certainly wasn't. Especially not on school or youth group trips.I was the one that wandered off and got lost easily. I think I almost gave my parents heart attacks several times. I got lost in Disney World when I was eleven. I found one of the "cops" in the park and followed him around until he noticed me.

*smacks own forehead again, harder*

Of course.

I'm'a stop posting now and go stick my tongue in a fan. :confused:

lol.

Jeez, no of course it's not legal.
However, there is a concept of "proportions". You don't send someone for execution for stealing a pen, do you? And by the same measure, it's quite surprising the scouts' prank very nearly had political consequences.
God forbid someone would have said, "Fuck Manchester United," then.

You posted seriously. Sorry.I'll work on making it more obvious when I'm being serious and not. Sorry for the inconvenience.

'Cause in english standalone "q" isn't allowed. It's always in the digraph "qu".

The people of Iraq disagree.
The people of Qatar disagree.
The people of Qaanaaq REALLY disagree.

A prank usually has some kind of poke at authority or popularity or other assumption as it's basis. You don't usually prank those you really like, or if you do, you don't make it a heinous one.

As for the cow on MIT's roof? You'd have to ask the pranksters. Students pranking institutions is a kind of poke at authority, so that might have been it.

Have you always been so literal?

Nope, but the assumption that a prank needs a justification did make me wonder.

And pranking only people you don't like? Really? You've never put make-up on a friend who fell asleep at a party? Or tied their shoelaces? Or unscrewed the salt shaker when you knew they were going to use it?
You've never been in a youth group, scouts or other, for any longer period of time, have you? ;)

I'll work on making it more obvious when I'm being serious and not. Sorry for the inconvenience.

No need to apologize. I need to learn how better to recognize when I'm being messed with and when I'm being legitimately opposed. You've not had a history of being fractious for no reason to my posts. I should have known better. It is I who apologizes to you, here.

God forbid someone would have said, "Fuck Manchester United," then.

Seeing as those guys were from Southern England, I'm guessing they would have cheered. Why?

The people of Iraq disagree.
The people of Qatar disagree.
The people of Qaanaaq REALLY disagree.

Do any of those words come from the English language and not added in later?

The people of Iraq disagree.
The people of Qatar disagree.
The people of Qaanaaq REALLY disagree.

That's why his post actually said "in English". Hello?

Nope, but the assumption that a prank needs a justification did make me wonder.

And pranking only people you don't like? Really? You've never put make-up on a friend who fell asleep at a party? Or tied their shoelaces? Or unscrewed the salt shaker when you knew they were going to use it?
You've never been in a youth group, scouts or other, for any longer period of time, have you? ;)

How dare you suggest such a thing!
*Makes scene while buddy sneaks up behind and begins tying shoe laces*

Nope, but the assumption that a prank needs a justification did make me wonder.

And pranking only people you don't like? Really? You've never put make-up on a friend who fell asleep at a party? Or tied their shoelaces? Or unscrewed the salt shaker when you knew they were going to use it?
You've never been in a youth group, scouts or other, for any longer period of time, have you? ;)

I have been in Scouts (booted for asking too many questions about how silly church seemed to me). I was also in cross-country and basketball, so thanks for your assumption. I guess we were just not little assholes to each other for no reason. We pranked if someone needed the piss taken out of them (such as the occasional overbearing teacher), but at random? Not so much.

No need to apologize. I need to learn how better to recognize when I'm being messed with and when I'm being legitimately opposed. You've not had a history of being fractious for no reason to my posts. I should have known better. It is I who apologizes to you, here.I'm facetious for no reason, all the time. :)
I just like playing at being funny, and failing miserably most of the time.

Back to the point of the thread.

I still think it's because we have so few things to really identify with as a whole.

^ ^
Who is a French immigrant. :)

Elle représente bien un État creé grâce à le siècle des Lumières et à La Fayette! ;)

Do any of those words come from the English language and not added in later?

That's exactly WHY they're such useful examples -- none of them come from our alphabet. Irak, Katar, and Kaanaak would all be suitable ways of transliterating them, but they weren't picked.

I have been in Scouts (booted for asking too many questions about how silly church seemed to me). I was also in cross-country and basketball, so thanks for your assumption. I guess we were just not little assholes to each other for no reason. We pranked if someone needed the piss taken out of them (such as the occasional overbearing teacher), but at random? Not so much.

*shrugs* So you didn't. We did. We never hurt anybody, but we would make fun of all and everything.

I have been in Scouts (booted for asking too many questions about how silly church seemed to me). I was also in cross-country and basketball, so thanks for your assumption. I guess we were just not little assholes to each other for no reason. We pranked if someone needed the piss taken out of them (such as the occasional overbearing teacher), but at random? Not so much.

You are unlike most people then. I only do pranks on my friends. Putting make-up on them when they fall asleep drunk. Carry them into a dark room and locking them in when they fall asleep drunk and things like that.

It's all good fun, and you can assume you will get the same treatment back some day.

The people of Iraq disagree.
The people of Qatar disagree.
The people of Qaanaaq REALLY disagree.

And none of those words are english words. So what?:confused:

You are unlike most people then. I only do pranks on my friends. Putting make-up on them when they fall asleep drunk. Carry them into a dark room and locking them in when they fall asleep drunk and things like that.

It's all good fun, and you can assume you will get the same treatment back some day.

Unless the person you pranked doesn't have that streak in them. My friends knew my stance, and as such, didn't prank me because they knew I didn't like the whole business.

So many assumptions.

*shrugs* So you didn't. We did. We never hurt anybody, but we would make fun of all and everything.

To your knowledge.

Irak, Katar, and Kaanaak would all be suitable ways of transliterating them, but they weren't picked.
Arabic already has a k. The q is a more gluttal sound.

http://www.aquaphoenix.com/doc/nyc/statue_of_liberty1.gif
vs.
http://www.golden-odyssey.com/images/gallery/Approaching%20the%20Eiffel%20Tower%20and%20Statue%20of%20Liberty%202.JPG

That's exactly WHY they're such useful examples -- none of them come from our alphabet. Irak, Katar, and Kaanaak would all be suitable ways of transliterating them, but they weren't picked.

They're utterly useless examples because they're not English words. Also, in many sources, those names WERE transliterated with Ks and not Qs.

Someone wiser than I will have to explain why the Q became the favored transliteration.

Unless the person you pranked doesn't have that streak in them. My friends knew my stance, and as such, didn't prank me because they knew I didn't like the whole business.

So many assumptions.

You don't like to be pranked and let them know of this? That is all the more reason to prank you.

Arabic already has a k. The q is a more gluttal sound.

"Glottal" or "gutteral"?

You don't like to be pranked and let them know of this? That is all the more reason to prank you.

It is if they're assholes. And if they're assholes, they're not my friends. Pretty simple, really. I didn't have to let them know in some kind of declaration. I let them know by not participating.

Still so many assumptions.

Unless the person you pranked doesn't have that streak in them. My friends knew my stance, and as such, didn't prank me because they knew I didn't like the whole business.

So many assumptions.

Doesn't matter if they like it or not. If they get mad, all the more fun. What's a good nachspiel without having a laugh at someone's expense?

No one gets hurt. Maybe emotionally, but that heals with time.

Arabic already has a k. The q is a more gluttal sound.

The problem lies in translitteration.

wiki: q

The Semitic sound value of Qôp (perhaps originally qaw, "cord of wool", and possibly based on an Egyptian hieroglyph) was /q/ (voiceless uvular plosive), a sound common to Semitic languages, but not found in English or most Indo-European ones. In Greek, this sign as Qoppa Ϙ probably came to represent several labialized velar plosives, among them /kʷ/ and /kʷʰ/. As a result of later sound shifts, these sounds in Greek changed to /p/ and /pʰ/ respectively. Therefore, Qoppa was transformed into two letters: Qoppa, which stood for a number only, and Phi Φ which stood for the aspirated sound /pʰ/ that came to be pronounced /f/ in Modern Greek. The Etruscans used Q only in conjunction with V to represent /kʷ/.

...

And since Latin alphabet stems from the Phoenician, through Etruscan... no standalone "q" in Romance and Germanic languages.

Doesn't matter if they like it or not. If they get mad, all the more fun. What's a good nachspiel without having a laugh at someone's expense?

No one gets hurt. Maybe emotionally, but that heals with time.

And people wonder why the world can be such a contentious and obnoxious place.

If this is the kind of thing you like, that's great. My objection is to the assumption that everyone must think the same way.

It is if they're assholes. And if they're assholes, they're not my friends. Pretty simple, really. I didn't have to let them know in some kind of declaration. I let them know by not participating.

Still so many assumptions.

What assumptions am I making here? And so many? If I have made any I have made only one not many.

And assholes? If friends aren't going to rag on you and make harmless pranks then they really aren't your friends.

I should have placed a ":p" at the end of my last post, to signify that I am joking.

I still think it's because we have so few things to really identify with as a whole.

You know, I think you have.
You've got, in no particular order, American Football, Baseball, Basketball, Hollywood, Yale, Harward, the Dollar as world currency, the Grand Canyon, the Rocky Mountains, the Mississippi, Yellowstone, burgers, Coca Cola, ice tea, the Statue of Liberty, jazz, rock, rap, Ford, Walmart, Burger King, McDonalds and KFC... not all of them necessarily positive, but no country has the privilege of being purely positive.

There are many items and symbols you can identify with in the way other nations would (the Italians with the pasta, the Germans with their autobahns, the Irish with Guinness...).
Yet the item of choice of the US is something very abstract, and the veneration doesn't go to what it stands for, but to what it is. And that's ... well, unusual and difficult to fully understand.

The problem lies in translitteration.

wiki: q

The Semitic sound value of Qôp (perhaps originally qaw, "cord of wool", and possibly based on an Egyptian hieroglyph) was /q/ (voiceless uvular plosive), a sound common to Semitic languages, but not found in English or most Indo-European ones. In Greek, this sign as Qoppa Ϙ probably came to represent several labialized velar plosives, among them /kʷ/ and /kʷʰ/. As a result of later sound shifts, these sounds in Greek changed to /p/ and /pʰ/ respectively. Therefore, Qoppa was transformed into two letters: Qoppa, which stood for a number only, and Phi Φ which stood for the aspirated sound /pʰ/ that came to be pronounced /f/ in Modern Greek. The Etruscans used Q only in conjunction with V to represent /kʷ/.

...

And since Latin alphabet stems from the Phoenician, through Etruscan... no standalone "q" in Romance and Germanic languages.

Well done.

And people wonder why the world can be such a contentious and obnoxious place.

If this is the kind of thing you like, that's great. My objection is to the assumption that everyone must think the same way.

Having a laugh doesn't make the world an obnoxious place. Quite the contrary actually.

And not must. Just should.

what assumptions am i making here? And so many? If i have made any i have made only one not many.

And assholes? if friends aren't going to rag on you and make harmless pranks then they really aren't your friends.

I should have placed a ":p" at the end of my last post, to signify that i am joking.

qed.

Having a laugh doesn't make the world an obnoxious place. Quite the contrary actually.

And not must. Just should.

If that's what you believe, that's fine. It isn't absolute. It's not "having a laugh" when you're A) the target and B) don't believe in sinking to others' levels in order to be perceived as "part of the gang".

Taking a joke is one thing -- my friends and I are constantly bantering. Pranking is patently childish.

qed.

And even my last sentence didn't do anything. Sometimes you take pots to seriously, Intangelon.

And even my last sentence didn't do anything. Sometimes you take pots to seriously, Intangelon.

The point still stands. You asked a question, I answered it. How is that taking anything too seriously?

And even my last sentence didn't do anything. Sometimes you take pots to seriously, Intangelon.Don't take pots so seriously, Intagelon! Pans are much better! :p Nuuu, too slow.

You know, I think you have.
You've got, in no particular order, American Football, Baseball, Basketball, Hollywood, Yale, Harward, the Dollar as world currency, the Grand Canyon, the Rocky Mountains, the Mississippi, Yellowstone, burgers, Coca Cola, ice tea, the Statue of Liberty, jazz, rock, rap, Ford, Walmart, Burger King, McDonalds and KFC... not all of them necessarily positive, but no country has the privilege of being purely positive.Does the country you live in have people identify themselves with fast food chains?

Intangelon: Glottal. I've always spelled it the other way, which according to Google is wrong. Oops!

To spell Iraq in Arabic is إِرَق . That's ee-r a q. If it was going to be Irak you would spell it إِرَك . The difference is that last letter: the first one is a qaaf and the second one is a kaaf.

That represents the European Union, but each country still retains its national flag.
...just as the Stars and Stripes is the national flag, and each of our states has their own as well.

Uusikaarlepyy :p

Where the hell did that come from? BTW, Uusikaarlepyy sucks.

The people of Iraq disagree.
The people of Qatar disagree.
The people of Qaanaaq REALLY disagree.
...and their spelling is not English, nor need it or should it be.

Actually the Anglicized spellings of their nations probably don't relate to the way they spell them anyhow.

You know, I think you have.
You've got, in no particular order, American Football, Baseball, Basketball, Hollywood, Yale, Harward, the Dollar as world currency, the Grand Canyon, the Rocky Mountains, the Mississippi, Yellowstone, burgers, Coca Cola, ice tea, the Statue of Liberty, jazz, rock, rap, Ford, Walmart, Burger King, McDonalds and KFC... not all of them necessarily positive, but no country has the privilege of being purely positive.

There are many items and symbols you can identify with in the way other nations would (the Italians with the pasta, the Germans with their autobahns, the Irish with Guinness...).
Yet the item of choice of the US is something very abstract, and the veneration doesn't go to what it stands for, but to what it is. And that's ... well, unusual and difficult to fully understand.

Most of the things you've listed here may be perceived as "American" to an outside observer, but actual Americans don't typically think of them that way in my experience. I've never met a New Yorker who feels any connection to the Rocky Mountains, or a Southerner who feels particular pride in Hollywood - that would honestly make about as much sense to the people in question as a Czech taking pride in Big Ben and the Eiffel Tower. You have to remember that America is really freaking large, and the various regions of the country don't really have all that much in common - except for something like the flag, which applies to all of us.

Intangelon: Glottal. I've always spelled it the other way, which according to Google is wrong. Oops!

To spell Iraq in Arabic is إِرَق . That's ee-r a q. If it was going to be Irak you would spell it إِرَك . The difference is that last letter: the first one is a qaaf and the second one is a kaaf.

Excellent! Thank you.

Don't take pots so seriously, Intagelon! Pans are much better! :p Nuuu, too slow.

Damn you and your pans! GRILLS! GRIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLS!

Does the country you live in have people identify themselves with fast food chains?

You've never had a Joyeux Meal at Es-Car-Go?

Don't take pots so seriously, Intagelon! Pans are much better! :p

lmao, I prefer baking dishes.

I posted before your edit. The point still stands. You asked a question, I answered it. How is that taking anything too seriously?

Sometimes it seems that you are taking it more seriously I suppose it is just a difference in senses of humour or something like that. I don't know it is 6 in the morning over here.

The problem lies in translitteration.

wiki: q

The Semitic sound value of Qôp (perhaps originally qaw, "cord of wool", and possibly based on an Egyptian hieroglyph) was /q/ (voiceless uvular plosive), a sound common to Semitic languages, but not found in English or most Indo-European ones. In Greek, this sign as Qoppa Ϙ probably came to represent several labialized velar plosives, among them /kʷ/ and /kʷʰ/. As a result of later sound shifts, these sounds in Greek changed to /p/ and /pʰ/ respectively. Therefore, Qoppa was transformed into two letters: Qoppa, which stood for a number only, and Phi Φ which stood for the aspirated sound /pʰ/ that came to be pronounced /f/ in Modern Greek. The Etruscans used Q only in conjunction with V to represent /kʷ/.

...

And since Latin alphabet stems from the Phoenician, through Etruscan... no standalone "q" in Romance and Germanic languages.

Fun fact: Qwerty is an english word that's legal in scrabble and comes from the US.

Most of the things you've listed here may be perceived as "American" to an outside observer, but actual Americans don't typically think of them that way in my experience. I've never met a New Yorker who feels any connection to the Rocky Mountains, or a Southerner who feels particular pride in Hollywood - that would honestly make about as much sense to the people in question as a Czech taking pride in Big Ben and the Eiffel Tower. You have to remember that America is really freaking large, and the various regions of the country don't really have all that much in common - except for something like the flag, which applies to all of us.

Poli, once again, you've crystallized my thoughts eloquently. Thou rockest most mightily.

Fun fact: Qwerty is an english word that's legal in scrabble and comes from the US.

Funner fact: it's taken from the order of letters on an English keyboard and not a true coining.

Actually the Anglicized spellings of their nations probably don't relate to the way they spell them anyhow.
To spell Iraq in Arabic is إِرَق . That's ee-r a q. If it was going to be Irak you would spell it إِرَك . The difference is that last letter: the first one is a qaaf and the second one is a kaaf.
Not a bad assumption though - who knows what those crazy Arabs do with their languages.

Damn you and your pans! GRILLS! GRIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLS!lmao, I prefer baking dishes.It's time for a cook-off! :p

Fun fact: Qwerty is an english word that's legal in scrabble and comes from the US.

And still pronounced as though it has a "u".

Sometimes it seems that you are taking it more seriously I suppose it is just a difference in senses of humour or something like that. I don't know it is 6 in the morning over here.

I understand that, but when a simple idea is getting steamrolled by assumptions, it's difficult to hear "dude, just kidding" without thinking of it as a colossal cop-out. My apologies.

It's time for a cook-off! :p

Take me to the stadium. :)

What's the main ingredient?

And still pronounced as though it has a "u".

Which is because the W is a glide (vowel-like) consonant that has "u" in it. Damn, English is weird.

I understand that, but when a simple idea is getting steamrolled by assumptions, it's difficult to hear "dude, just kidding" without thinking of it as a colossal cop-out. My apologies.

No need to apologise, I know what you were getting at and I was just trying to add some light hearted humour into the discussion.

Take me to the stadium. :)

What's the main ingredient?

So long as we don't have that jackass with the microphone on the floor constantly interrupting. "Fukui-san!" WHAAAAAT?!?!?

It can't be baked goods, though. I can't make cookies on my grill. Yet....

Seeing as those guys were from Southern England, I'm guessing they would have cheered. Why?
Because apparently, in Europe, beating people bloody for disrespecting your team happens often. Here we look at it as "just a sport."

Which is because the W is a glide (vowel-like) consonant that has "u" in it. Damn, English is weird.

Yeah that's true for both statements.

How did a discussion on the Flag become about Linguistics....thats just screwy...

http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:RwtjRQNCWap_pM:http://uplink.space.com/attachments/351386-screw_ball.jpg

And still pronounced as though it has a "u".

My Oxford dictionary doesn't report "Qwerty" as an english word.

So long as we don't have that jackass with the microphone on the floor constantly interrupting. "Fukui-san!" WHAAAAAT?!?!?

It can't be baked goods, though. I can't make cookies on my grill. Yet....

I lol'ed.

No need to apologise, I know what you were getting at and I was just trying to add some light hearted humour into the discussion.

I suppose I'm a but touchy on this subject because I was raised to eschew revenge without legitimate purpose, as I was raised to respect other's stuff. It was indeed a source of aggravation for me as my peers (note "peers" and not "friends") went through the prank phase of their childhood.

They knew I wouldn't respond, so I became a favorite target as the result of a principled stance. It got old, but I took solace in the high road...lonely, lonely road that it can be.

Again, my apologies.

How did a discussion on the Flag become about Linguistics....thats just screwy...

http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:RwtjRQNCWap_pM:http://uplink.space.com/attachments/351386-screw_ball.jpg

You haven't been on NSG long have you?

Take me to the stadium. :)

What's the main ingredient?http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/4_Kobe_Beef%2C_Kobe_Japan.jpg/250px-4_Kobe_Beef%2C_Kobe_Japan.jpgKobe beef. :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/4_Kobe_Beef%2C_Kobe_Japan.jpg/250px-4_Kobe_Beef%2C_Kobe_Japan.jpgKobe beef. :)

*drools*

I volunteer to be judge!

Because apparently, in Europe, beating people bloody for disrespecting your team happens often. Here we look at it as "just a sport."

Yeah, that's a bit ironic, isn't it?

BRITS: You Yanks are WEIRD for worshiping that flag of yours.
YANKS: But you guys will put someone in the hospital for dissing a beloved football team -- that's somehow better, or not weird?
BRITS: Yeah, well...bugger off, you.

Does the country you live in have people identify themselves with fast food chains?

Ireland? You betcha.

I suppose I'm a but touchy on this subject because I was raised to eschew revenge without legitimate purpose, as I was raised to respect other's stuff. It was indeed a source of aggravation for me as my peers (note "peers" and not "friends") went through the prank phase of their childhood.

They knew I wouldn't respond, so I became a favorite target as the result of a principled stance. It got old, but I took solace in the high road...lonely, lonely road that it can be.

Again, my apologies.

Ah, I see I should apologise too, I wasn't aware and then made as you say assumptions even in my jokes.

My Oxford dictionary doesn't report "Qwerty" as an english word.

Better let SL know about that then.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/4_Kobe_Beef%2C_Kobe_Japan.jpg/250px-4_Kobe_Beef%2C_Kobe_Japan.jpgKobe beef. :)

And me with a grill? Don't I win by default over a baking pan? The dessert will be a problem, though...Kobe mince pie?

Elle représente bien un État creé grâce à le siècle des Lumières et à La Fayette! ;)
Je sais… et étais un cadeau à nous de France et ses créateurs, à Bartholdi et à Eiffel. Je sais mon histoire… et ce que les Etats-Unis doivent en France pour son aide financière, matière, et beaucoup de dirigeants autres que le marquis de La Fayette qui est venu ici.

Ah, I see I should apologise too, I wasn't aware and then made as you say assumptions even in my jokes.

Most kind, but there was no way you could have known. It isn't like I trumpet my inherent ability to be a target to the world.

Oh shit.

*drools*

I volunteer to be judge!Okay. :p

And be with a grill? Don't I win by default over a baking pan? The dessert will be a problem, though...Kobe mince pie?You'll have competition. ;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/4_Kobe_Beef%2C_Kobe_Japan.jpg/250px-4_Kobe_Beef%2C_Kobe_Japan.jpgKobe beef. :)

*Starts preparing some sort of pastry thing*

*drools over thought of it*