NationStates Jolt Archive

I've recently seen an old episode of QI, in which Stephen Fry (or Alan Davis, I can't remember right now) tells this story about when he was in the Boy Scouts and went to this international convention-camp.
Apparently, the US delegation had their tents right next to the British scouts. The US scouts would - with great pomp and serenity - put up their flag each morning, and take it down every night.
At first, that greatly amused the British scouts.
After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. So one day, they stole the flag and hid it. This, apparently, almost led to an international incident. The US scouts took it very badly, and with quite exaggerated reaction, as it seemed to the Brits. After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious. Nobody had been glued to the latrines, or doused in icy water.

The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs.
So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it? As flags go, it's not even a particularly pretty one... not to ugliest, but not the prettiest, either. So why all the outrage over it getting burned now and again (which, it has to be said, is the only reason why it DOES get burned in the first place), why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about?

I've recently seen an old episode of QI, in which Stephen Fry (or Alan Davis, I can't remember right now) tells this story about when he was in the Boy Scouts and went to this international convention-camp.
Apparently, the US delegation had their tents right next to the British scouts. The US scouts would - with great pomp and serenity - put up their flag each morning, and take it down every night.
At first, that greatly amused the British scouts.
After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. So one day, they stole the flag and hid it. This, apparently, almost led to an international incident. The US scouts took it very badly, and with quite exaggerated reaction, as it seemed to the Brits. After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious. Nobody had been glued to the latrines, or doused in icy water.

The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs.
So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it? As flags go, it's not even a particularly pretty one... not to ugliest, but not the prettiest, either. So why all the outrage over it getting burned now and again (which, it has to be said, is the only reason why it DOES get burned in the first place), why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about?

I am an American citizen and can sum it up in four words: Damned if I know.

I've recently seen an old episode of QI, in which Stephen Fry (or Alan Davis, I can't remember right now) tells this story about when he was in the Boy Scouts and went to this international convention-camp.
Apparently, the US delegation had their tents right next to the British scouts. The US scouts would - with great pomp and serenity - put up their flag each morning, and take it down every night.
At first, that greatly amused the British scouts.
After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. So one day, they stole the flag and hid it. This, apparently, almost led to an international incident. The US scouts took it very badly, and with quite exaggerated reaction, as it seemed to the Brits. After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious. Nobody had been glued to the latrines, or doused in icy water.

The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs.
So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it? As flags go, it's not even a particularly pretty one... not to ugliest, but not the prettiest, either. So why all the outrage over it getting burned now and again (which, it has to be said, is the only reason why it DOES get burned in the first place), why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about?

Excessive pride in one's country, I presume.

Heck if I understand. I'm proud of my country, but I don't go to extremes. I guess every place has its particular way of expressing pride.

Excessive pride in one's country, I presume.

Heck if I understand. I'm proud of my country, but I don't go to extremes. I guess every place has its particular way of expressing pride.

I think as far as national pride goes, nobody can really hold his/her own against the British. But they tend not to fix the whole pride-thing on one object... I find this all very strange indeed.

I think as far as national pride goes, nobody can really hold his/her own against the British. But they tend not to fix the whole pride-thing on one object... I find this all very strange indeed.

It is indeed strange. Perhaps an American (if they know) can explain.

Although I think Americans go over the top at least they have their own flag.

Australia's flag has got someone else's in the corner. I've never felt as if its my flag.

It is indeed strange. Perhaps an American (if they know) can explain.

Nope...

I think as far as national pride goes, nobody can really hold his/her own against the British. But they tend not to fix the whole pride-thing on one object... I find this all very strange indeed.

It is indeed strange. Perhaps an American (if they know) can explain.

My theory is that there really aren't that many things that are seen as "American", unlike things that are seen as "British" so we don't really have many things to focus our national pride on.

Well its national pride. I'm british and i'd be insulted if someone wrecked our flag unnessacarily. It was a bit mean to take the flag away why not just put a union flag up every day.

Why do they feel so strongly about it?Years of indoctrination.
They start every day in school pledging to the flag; is it any surprise they might get the idea that it is important?

Perhaps it has to do with the fact that the national anthem is about the flag, or with the pledge of allegiance. But hell if I know.

Must take a long time to knit one

Boy Scouts, and many other pro-American groups, are taught to honor the flag.
It honors the forethought and wisdom of the founding fathers, the purity of purpose, the brave men who died to give the freedom they enjoy.
It also honors the unity of differing points of view joining together to form one indivisible nation.

I'm not entirely sure why we Americans have such devotion to their flag. One explanation might be that the American flag is a universal symbol of America.

There's also a lot of tradition behind it. When America was founded, it was a republic in a world dominated by monarchies. Many of the traditions surrounding the flag, such as saluting it in a formal ceremony or pledging allegiance to it, resemble - and are probably drawn from - traditions surrounding monarchy.

In fact, the British equivalent of such a symbol might be the monarchy itself. I believe it is common practice in British institutions to hang a portrait of the monarch in a prominent place. If such a portrait were stolen, how would the Brits react?

Incidentally, there is one thing (actually, two things) that Americans revere beyond the flag - our founding documents, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution. The Declaration of Independence states our core values, while the Constitution is the blueprint for our system of government. If you REALLY want to piss off Americans, burning one of these might work better than burning the flag. I believe that if a foreign leader were to burn a copy of the Declaration of Independence in public, he would never again be trusted by the American government.

My theory is that there really aren't that many things that are seen as "American", unlike things that are seen as "British" so we don't really have many things to focus our national pride on.

Hmm...

American : Big cars, burgers, Coca Cola, Hawaii shirts, Baseball, American Football, ...
British : Taxis, fish'n chips, tea, tweed jackets, cricket, football...

I think it's pretty even, actually.

Well its national pride. I'm british and i'd be insulted if someone wrecked our flag unnessacarily. It was a bit mean to take the flag away why not just put a union flag up every day.

I assume cause they didn't have one and would have felt silly for putting one up?

Boy Scouts, and many other pro-American groups, are taught to honor the flag.
It honors the forethought and wisdom of the founding fathers, the purity of purpose, the brave men who died to give the freedom they enjoy.
It also honors the unity of differing points of view joining together to form one indivisible nation.


Nice over-emotional speech, but it doesn't really answer the question, does it?

In fact, the British equivalent of such a symbol might be the monarchy itself. I believe it is common practice in British institutions to hang a portrait of the monarch in a prominent place. If such a portrait were stolen, how would the Brits react?


They'd probably just be pissed off that they have to go to the effort of getting another one rather than being pissed off that it was a portrait of a monarch that was stolen

Well its national pride. I'm british and i'd be insulted if someone wrecked our flag unnessacarily. It was a bit mean to take the flag away why not just put a union flag up every day.

And thats the thing, I can understand national pride(although I think it harms more than aids) but a flag is just a bit of cloth it is not a country but a symbol of one. By disrespecting a symbol, I guess some people will see the inslut to the country, but like the panel on QI, I just don't understand this mind set.

Insult, really it must be taken to be effective, if you are insulted, it is up to your whether you react or not. Insult even though there may be some intent behind it, looses it's power if you simply choose not to be insulted.

I'm not entirely sure why we Americans have such devotion to their flag. One explanation might be that the American flag is a universal symbol of America.

There's also a lot of tradition behind it. When America was founded, it was a republic in a world dominated by monarchies. Many of the traditions surrounding the flag, such as saluting it in a formal ceremony or pledging allegiance to it, resemble - and are probably drawn from - traditions surrounding monarchy.

In fact, the British equivalent of such a symbol might be the monarchy itself. I believe it is common practice in British institutions to hang a portrait of the monarch in a prominent place. If such a portrait were stolen, how would the Brits react?

Incidentally, there is one thing (actually, two things) that Americans revere beyond the flag - our founding documents, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution. The Declaration of Independence states our core values, while the Constitution is the blueprint for our system of government. If you REALLY want to piss off Americans, burning one of these might work better than burning the flag. I believe that if a foreign leader were to burn a copy of the Declaration of Independence in public, he would never again be trusted by the American government.

You've got a point there... the flag is treated much in the same way that a monarch back in the 18th century would have been revered by his/her subjects and underlings.

The sad thing about it is, it's frozen in time. The British - from what I can tell, as I'm not one myself - have moved on considerably with regard to their relationship with monarchy in the last 2 centuries. If the portrait of the queen were stolen from a public office, there's a very good chance that it would be a few weeks before anybody noticed it missing.

I've recently seen an old episode of QI, in which Stephen Fry (or Alan Davis, I can't remember right now) tells this story about when he was in the Boy Scouts and went to this international convention-camp.
Apparently, the US delegation had their tents right next to the British scouts. The US scouts would - with great pomp and serenity - put up their flag each morning, and take it down every night.
At first, that greatly amused the British scouts.
After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. So one day, they stole the flag and hid it. This, apparently, almost led to an international incident. The US scouts took it very badly, and with quite exaggerated reaction, as it seemed to the Brits. After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious. Nobody had been glued to the latrines, or doused in icy water.

The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs.
So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it? As flags go, it's not even a particularly pretty one... not to ugliest, but not the prettiest, either. So why all the outrage over it getting burned now and again (which, it has to be said, is the only reason why it DOES get burned in the first place), why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about?
I've talked with Herrmann about this, actually. It's based off of how identities are structured (internal and external factors, and specifically, the terminal external source) and the like.

The people of the United States have an exceptionally weak national sense of identity--we're more akin to India or 1875 Germany than to, say, modern Spain or Sweden. Long term polling data indicates that we lack so many of the defining cultural characteristics that other nation-states have (national mode of food, language, religion, appearance, dress, music, national futbol teams etc.) that help to passively reinforce the national sense of identity. Because of this, we've developed an active secular national religion (complete with Saints, Sacraments and Shrines) to reinforce the sense of identity that passive characteristics would otherwise make unnecessary.

We've internalized the triple-S's of what Herrmann calls our quasi-Buddhist national faith, as a part of our personal identities, and denigrating the symbols of that tend to piss Americans way the hell off in much the way that rudely mocking a national futbol team would drive some crazy elsewhere in the world.

I've recently seen an old episode of QI, in which Stephen Fry (or Alan Davis, I can't remember right now)
I saw that one too. It's from the latest series.
tells this story about when he was in the Boy Scouts and went to this international convention-camp.
Apparently, the US delegation had their tents right next to the British scouts. The US scouts would - with great pomp and serenity - put up their flag each morning, and take it down every night.
At first, that greatly amused the British scouts.
After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. So one day, they stole the flag and hid it. This, apparently, almost led to an international incident. The US scouts took it very badly, and with quite exaggerated reaction, as it seemed to the Brits. After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious. Nobody had been glued to the latrines, or doused in icy water.

The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs.
So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it? As flags go, it's not even a particularly pretty one... not to ugliest, but not the prettiest, either. So why all the outrage over it getting burned now and again (which, it has to be said, is the only reason why it DOES get burned in the first place), why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about?

I think the idea(which I'm stealing from Stephen Fry) is that the flag is all the Americans have as a symbol of their country, that kinda makes it the focus of all their nationalism.

Nice over-emotional speech, but it doesn't really answer the question, does it?

Well, I'm afraid that, to an average American patriot, it does.

I've talked with Herrmann about this, actually. It's based off of how identities are structured (internal and external factors, and specifically, the terminal external source) and the like.

The people of the United States have an exceptionally weak national sense of identity--we're more akin to India or 1875 Germany than to, say, modern Spain or Sweden. Long term polling data indicates that we lack so many of the defining cultural characteristics that other nation-states have (national mode of food, language, religion, appearance, dress, music, national futbol teams etc.) that help to passively reinforce the national sense of identity. Because of this, we've developed an active secular national religion (complete with Saints, Sacraments and Shrines) to reinforce the sense of identity that passive characteristics would otherwise make unnecessary.

We've internalized the triple-S's of what Herrmann calls our quasi-Buddhist national faith, as a part of our personal identities, and denigrating the symbols of that tend to piss Americans way the hell off in much the way that rudely mocking a national futbol team would drive some crazy elsewhere in the world.

That ... makes sense. Quite a lot actually. It called up in my mind the ceremonies and rituals that the Eastern German government invented to try and instill a separate identity (as in, separate from Western Germany at the time) in the population, and enable them to distinguish themselves emotionally from the other half of the country. It did succeed much more than many had thought, with many of the ceremonies still being carried on in the Eastern countries even today.

The question for me is, though, why go for something this abstract, and why go about it so religiously? In Eastern Germany, there was pressure from the government on the people to comply and go along with their measures, but I don't think there was any such pressure in the US. So why go for the flag rather than set up a football team to play along with the rest of the world? The national identities in every single nation state on the planet had to start growing at one point, they didn't just appear overnight.

I'm slightly worried now that in this scenario, USAmerican identity will suffer from stunted growth, forever trapped in the slightly naive adoration of abstract symbols, rather than finding similarities between its inhabitants in everyday life and identify with them.

Here's an anecdote that might shed some light on American thinking RE flags:

I used to go to a Jewish camp every summer. It was at a facility normally used as a wilderness camp. As is common with these camps, there was a flagpole and a big American flag near the entrance. While our program didn't do this, I saw from signs posted around the facility that the regular wilderness camp had a daily flag-raising ceremony.

One year, we had a special program day with an Israel theme. There were activity stations around camp dealing with different aspects of Israeli society and culture. Morning cleanup, normally a relaxed activity, was overseen by counselors pretending to be IDF drill sergeants. And to kick off this program, we had a ceremony at the flagpole. The ceremony consisted of raising the Israeli flag and singing the Israeli national anthem ("Hatikvah").

My point here is that while the program was Israel-themed, it was planned and run by Americans. They wanted to honor Israel, so they chose to honor the Israeli flag in the same manner that we honor the American flag. I imagine that if, for example, a French-language camp had a France-themed day, they would raise the French flag and sing "La Marsailles".

I've talked with Herrmann about this, actually. It's based off of how identities are structured (internal and external factors, and specifically, the terminal external source) and the like.

The people of the United States have an exceptionally weak national sense of identity--we're more akin to India or 1875 Germany than to, say, modern Spain or Sweden. Long term polling data indicates that we lack so many of the defining cultural characteristics that other nation-states have (national mode of food, language, religion, appearance, dress, music, national futbol teams etc.) that help to passively reinforce the national sense of identity. Because of this, we've developed an active secular national religion (complete with Saints, Sacraments and Shrines) to reinforce the sense of identity that passive characteristics would otherwise make unnecessary.

We've internalized the triple-S's of what Herrmann calls our quasi-Buddhist national faith, as a part of our personal identities, and denigrating the symbols of that tend to piss Americans way the hell off in much the way that rudely mocking a national futbol team would drive some crazy elsewhere in the world.

Now that sounds sensible.

I saw that one too. It's from the latest series.


I think the idea(which I'm stealing from Stephen Fry) is that the flag is all the Americans have as a symbol of their country, that kinda makes it the focus of all their nationalism.

Yes, but the Irish have the shamrock as a symbol of their country, yet people don't beat you with sticks if you walk across some of those at springtime.
I think this explanation, easy as it may sound, isn't quite accurate.

Well its national pride. I'm british and i'd be insulted if someone wrecked our flag unnessacarily. It was a bit mean to take the flag away why not just put a union flag up every day.

If they wanted to have fun, they could have a flag-raising ceremony of their own at the same time as the Americans. During this ceremony, they sing "G-d Save The Queen" as loud as they possibly can - particularly if the Americans sing "The Star-Spangled Banner" during their ceremony. The result is a friendly competition of which country can sing their national anthem the loudest.

I've been in such a competition once, during the two years I spent living in England. One time in English class, I "corrected" a grammar worksheet for spelling (changing "aeroplane" to "airplane" and the like). When this came to the attention of the class, the teacher started up a round of some British patriotic song I didn't know. I tried to drown them out with "The Star-Spangled Banner", but I was outnumbered twelve to one.

It's always struck me as somewhat odd, but then I suppose it's a case of cultural differences.

I think the idea(which I'm stealing from Stephen Fry) is that the flag is all the Americans have as a symbol of their country, that kinda makes it the focus of all their nationalism.This.

If you're counting America as all fifty states, we're exactly fifty years old. That's not a lot of history.

Yes, but the Irish have the shamrock as a symbol of their country, yet people don't beat you with sticks if you walk across some of those at springtime.
I think this explanation, easy as it may sound, isn't quite accurate.

Well to be fair the Irish have much more national symbolism than just a Shamrock. And of course Ireland is a much much more older country with stacks more history than the USA.

Here's an anecdote that might shed some light on American thinking RE flags:

I used to go to a Jewish camp every summer. It was at a facility normally used as a wilderness camp. As is common with these camps, there was a flagpole and a big American flag near the entrance. While our program didn't do this, I saw from signs posted around the facility that the regular wilderness camp had a daily flag-raising ceremony.

One year, we had a special program day with an Israel theme. There were activity stations around camp dealing with different aspects of Israeli society and culture. Morning cleanup, normally a relaxed activity, was overseen by counselors pretending to be IDF drill sergeants. And to kick off this program, we had a ceremony at the flagpole. The ceremony consisted of raising the Israeli flag and singing the Israeli national anthem ("Hatikvah").

My point here is that while the program was Israel-themed, it was planned and run by Americans. They wanted to honor Israel, so they chose to honor the Israeli flag in the same manner that we honor the American flag. I imagine that if, for example, a French-language camp had a France-themed day, they would raise the French flag and sing "La Marsailles".

Well, yes, but most French would be slightly embarrased by that if they were forced to watch it. That's the point I'm trying to get across.
If you tried that with a German flag and anthem, you might even get eggs flung at you by German spectators.

So why would the US think that would be a good idea?

Well to be fair the Irish have much more national symbolism than just a Shamrock. And of course Ireland is a much much more older country with stacks more history than the USA.

Yes, but they don't really have any symbols I can think of that would make them react that way the USAmericans do about their flag...

Yes, but they don't really have any symbols I can think of that would make them react that way the USAmericans do about their flag...

No I agree, unless you piss in the guiness!:D

If they wanted to have fun, they could have a flag-raising ceremony of their own at the same time as the Americans. During this ceremony, they sing "G-d Save The Queen" as loud as they possibly can - particularly if the Americans sing "The Star-Spangled Banner" during their ceremony. The result is a friendly competition of which country can sing their national anthem the loudest.

I've been in such a competition once, during the two years I spent living in England. One time in English class, I "corrected" a grammar worksheet for spelling (changing "aeroplane" to "airplane" and the like). When this came to the attention of the class, the teacher started up a round of some British patriotic song I didn't know. I tried to drown them out with "The Star-Spangled Banner", but I was outnumbered twelve to one.

Brits.... singing???? I've never heard of such a thing. Where on earth were you???

No I agree, unless you piss in the guiness!:D
Doubt most people would notice.

Well, I'm afraid that, to an average American patriot, it does.
These aren't the average American patriots we're talking about here, these are the motherfucking Boy Scouts of America. As an ex-scout (I was kicked out), I can say they take their flag, uniform and ceremonies very seriously.
Nice over-emotional speech, but it doesn't really answer the question, does it?
It does, actually. Unless you want some pretentious, psychoanalytical answer about those cwazy Americans, that's your answer. Boy Scouts get the flags meaning drummed into their head from the beginning, and reinforced every time they raise and lower the flag (or hold a burning, or whatever). It is important to them as a national symbol.
If Brits want to start comparing the stupidity of national symbols, at least flags don't require national salaries or make nationally embarrassing statements.

This.

If you're counting America as all fifty states, we're exactly fifty years old. That's not a lot of history.

True, but if you count Germany with 16 countries, it's not even 20 years old yet...

Brits.... singing???? I've never heard of such a thing. Where on earth were you???
The English tend to sing the first couple of lines of God Save the Queen at football matches, before devolving into "nur nur nurs" because no-one else can really remember the lines, and those who do don't want to stick their necks out too much.

Brits.... singing???? I've never heard of such a thing. Where on earth were you???

Heh British patriotic songs? Why I can only think of certian rugby songs that may fit that bill.:D

T
If Brits want to start comparing the stupidity of national symbols, at least flags don't require national salaries or make nationally embarrassing statements.

So... they've no entertainment value whatsoever?

If they wanted to have fun, they could have a flag-raising ceremony of their own at the same time as the Americans. During this ceremony, they sing "G-d Save The Queen" as loud as they possibly can - particularly if the Americans sing "The Star-Spangled Banner" during their ceremony. The result is a friendly competition of which country can sing their national anthem the loudest.

I've been in such a competition once, during the two years I spent living in England. One time in English class, I "corrected" a grammar worksheet for spelling (changing "aeroplane" to "airplane" and the like). When this came to the attention of the class, the teacher started up a round of some British patriotic song I didn't know. I tried to drown them out with "The Star-Spangled Banner", but I was outnumbered twelve to one.

If it wasn't God save the Queen it was probably Jerusalem which is much better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_did_those_feet_in_ancient_time

I think a flag is important as it symbolises your country and allthat it is.

I think a flag is important as it symbolises your country and allthat it is.

Yes, it's a symbol of a country. Same as, say, stamps. But if you're not a collector, why worry about them?

As an ex-scout (I was kicked out),

Were you eating a brownie?

Were you eating a brownie?

Mmmpphht!

Mmmpphht!

You're welcome.

Were you eating a brownie?
You sick fuck, they're like 9 years old at that point.
It seems that the BSA did not agree with my policy, re: Corporeal Punishment Inflicted Upon One's Peers. I tried to file a plea of "He Totally Had It Coming," but that sort of stuff is all political anyway.

I've recently seen an old episode of QI, in which Stephen Fry (or Alan Davis, I can't remember right now) tells this story about when he was in the Boy Scouts and went to this international convention-camp.
Apparently, the US delegation had their tents right next to the British scouts. The US scouts would - with great pomp and serenity - put up their flag each morning, and take it down every night.
At first, that greatly amused the British scouts.
After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. So one day, they stole the flag and hid it. This, apparently, almost led to an international incident. The US scouts took it very badly, and with quite exaggerated reaction, as it seemed to the Brits. After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious. Nobody had been glued to the latrines, or doused in icy water.

The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs.
So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it? As flags go, it's not even a particularly pretty one... not to ugliest, but not the prettiest, either. So why all the outrage over it getting burned now and again (which, it has to be said, is the only reason why it DOES get burned in the first place), why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about?
i dunno but i would have been more suprised if it hadnt caused a big problem.

Why was it so important for the marines to raise the flag Iwo Jima.

http://www.themonkeycage.org/2008/11/patriotism_nationalism_and_the.html

It defines who we are as a country. It is as much about what we are as what we are not.

Why was it so important for the marines to raise the flag Iwo Jima.

http://www.themonkeycage.org/2008/11/patriotism_nationalism_and_the.html

It defines who we are as a country. It is as much about what we are as what we are not.

I don't know, you tell me.
Why, of all the countries out there and all the option for national icons available, the US decides to worship its flag?

i dunno but i would have been more suprised if it hadnt caused a big problem.

It took them quite by surprise... so much so that Stephen Fry remembers it after decades and thinks it funny enough to tell others about.

Why was it so important for the marines to raise the flag Iwo Jima.

http://www.themonkeycage.org/2008/11/patriotism_nationalism_and_the.html

It defines who we are as a country. It is as much about what we are as what we are not.
Fair enough. I suppose that it tends to strike most Europeans as odd, as that same sort of flag-worship just doesn't happen this side of the Atlantic, or at least not quite so much. The Americans' idolisation of their flag tends to be viewed as quaint by a lot of people and I know in one or two of my more uncharitable moments I've joked that its to remind them what country they're in.

Personally, when ever I see a British flag being flown outside of a building which isn't official in any way, it tends to strike me as somewhat odd. A bit too nationalistic.

Fair enough. I suppose that it tends to strike most Europeans as odd, as that same sort of flag-worship just doesn't happen this side of the Atlantic, or at least not quite so much. The Americans' idolisation of their flag tends to be viewed as quaint by a lot of people and I know in one or two of my more uncharitable moments I've joked that its to remind them what country they're in.

Personally, when ever I see a British flag being flown outside of a building which isn't official in any way, it tends to strike me as somewhat odd. A bit too nationalistic.

And more than a little scary, I might add.

Why was it so important for the marines to raise the flag Iwo Jima.
.

Well, raising a flag after an invasion is an age old way of saying 'we conquered this'. But the article was interesting.

It took them quite by surprise... so much so that Stephen Fry remembers it after decades and thinks it funny enough to tell others about.
yeah

but you cant take the flag and not get a big reaction from a boyscout. reverence for the flag is a big part of their traditions.

yeah

but you cant take the flag and not get a big reaction from a boyscout. reverence for the flag is a big part of their traditions.

Yes, but why?
I've been in the scouts in Germany for a bit as a kid, and I can't imagine ANYTHING those guys would revere. I would imagine the British scouts are pretty similar.

I'm surprised this question hasn't been properly answered by now. You have to be an older American to understand. I myself am probably a bit between the people who really feel it and the younger folks who don't quite get it.

America used to be quite a patriotic place, and the symbol for that patriotism has always been our flag. There are songs and hymns written about it. There is the statue of the men raising it at Iwo Jima. We even have laws regarding it's handling.

For many years each school day began with the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance while holding one's hand over your heart and facing the flag. We mourn as a nation by lowering our flag to half mast. It is a symbol of our national pride, a symbol of sacrifice, and a symbol of freedom.

I realize the American image has been tarnished over the last few years by a corrupt government concerned only with its own power, but most Americans, especially the older ones, still have pride in that flag and what it symbolizes. We believe that America will ultimately get past this dark time and be the shining beacon of hope and freedom that has drawn so many to our shores. We hope one day soon to have a government which once again realizes the true value of our Declaration of Independence and our Bill of Rights.

We hope one day soon to have a government who honors the flag and all it represents as much as we do.

So, even in these dark times.. especially in these dark times, we look to the flag as the symbol for what this country has been and should be again. We look at the flag and hope.

Fair enough. I suppose that it tends to strike most Europeans as odd, as that same sort of flag-worship just doesn't happen this side of the Atlantic, or at least not quite so much. The Americans' idolisation of their flag tends to be viewed as quaint by a lot of people and I know in one or two of my more uncharitable moments I've joked that its to remind them what country they're in.

Personally, when ever I see a British flag being flown outside of a building which isn't official in any way, it tends to strike me as somewhat odd. A bit too nationalistic.



We put flag on the moon. It is an emotional response. It is woven in the very fabric of our country. It reminds of where we come from when we can't be there. It reminds of who we are sacrificing our life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for. It is symbol of freedom. It remind us we are nation of immigrants. That we all came from somewhere else, Why?

To be free. To get a second chance. To live a new life. To stake our claim at the good life.

It is not so much worship as a deep respect.

So then why when it is burned on t.v. do you feel pain?

It is insulting us, it is provoking us, it is calling us out, it is challenging us. Normally it will get some type of response. It is like saying you are not welcome here. You ideas are wrong and you are fools for believing it. You guys are all just talk with nothing to back it up.

Although I think Americans go over the top at least they have their own flag.

Australia's flag has got someone else's in the corner. I've never felt as if its my flag.

I'd prefer that over more people wearing it as clothing...

I'm surprised this question hasn't been properly answered by now. You have to be an older American to understand. I myself am probably a bit between the people who really feel it and the younger folks who don't quite get it.

America used to be quite a patriotic place, and the symbol for that patriotism has always been our flag. There are songs and hymns written about it. There is the statue of the men raising it at Iwo Jima. We even have laws regarding it's handling.

For many years each school day began with the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance while holding one's hand over your heart and facing the flag. We mourn as a nation by lowering our flag to half mast. It is a symbol of our national pride, a symbol of sacrifice, and a symbol of freedom.

I realize the American image has been tarnished over the last few years by a corrupt government concerned only with its own power, but most Americans, especially the older ones, still have pride in that flag and what it symbolizes. We believe that America will ultimately get past this dark time and be the shining beacon of hope and freedom that has drawn so many to our shores. We hope one day soon to have a government which once again realizes the true value of our Declaration of Independence and our Bill of Rights.

We hope one day soon to have a government who honors the flag and all it represents as much as we do.

So, even in these dark times.. especially in these dark times, we look to the flag as the symbol for what this country has been and should be again. We look at the flag and hope.


Well said thanks for coming out and speaking up.

We put flag on the moon. It is an emotional response. It is woven in the very fabric of our country. It reminds of where we come from when we can't be there. It reminds of who we are sacrificing our life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for. It is symbol of freedom. It remind us we are nation of immigrants. That we all came from somewhere else, Why?
*cough*nativeamericans*cough*


To be free. To get a second chance. To live a new life. To stake our claim at the good life.

It is not so much worship as a deep respect.

So then why when it is burned on t.v. do you feel pain?

It is insulting us, it is provoking us, it is calling us out, it is challenging us. Normally it will get some type of response. It is like saying you are not welcome here. You ideas are wrong and you are fools for believing it. You guys are all just talk with nothing to back it up.

Here's the thing that confuses me. The Qi question was. Who burns most American flags. The answer was the American Boyscouts because burning a flag is the proper way to dispose of it.

I struggle to remember a British flag getting burnt, but I don't think it would bother us to the extent it seems to bother Americans.

Yes, but why?
I've been in the scouts in Germany for a bit as a kid, and I can't imagine ANYTHING those guys would revere. I would imagine the British scouts are pretty similar.
dunno

its just what we do.

you dont fuck with the flag.

I'm surprised this question hasn't been properly answered by now. You have to be an older American to understand. I myself am probably a bit between the people who really feel it and the younger folks who don't quite get it.

America used to be quite a patriotic place, and the symbol for that patriotism has always been our flag. There are songs and hymns written about it. There is the statue of the men raising it at Iwo Jima. We even have laws regarding it's handling.

For many years each school day began with the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance while holding one's hand over your heart and facing the flag. We mourn as a nation by lowering our flag to half mast. It is a symbol of our national pride, a symbol of sacrifice, and a symbol of freedom.

I realize the American image has been tarnished over the last few years by a corrupt government concerned only with its own power, but most Americans, especially the older ones, still have pride in that flag and what it symbolizes. We believe that America will ultimately get past this dark time and be the shining beacon of hope and freedom that has drawn so many to our shores. We hope one day soon to have a government which once again realizes the true value of our Declaration of Independence and our Bill of Rights.

We hope one day soon to have a government who honors the flag and all it represents as much as we do.

So, even in these dark times.. especially in these dark times, we look to the flag as the symbol for what this country has been and should be again. We look at the flag and hope.

Ok, you've summarised again what I've stated in the OP.
Now to the difficult bit : why? Where does that come from? Why would the USA worship a flag, while other countries couldn't care less about their own?

Hmm...

American : Big cars, burgers, Coca Cola, Hawaii shirts, Baseball, American Football, ...
British : Taxis, fish'n chips, tea, tweed jackets, cricket, football...

I think it's pretty even, actually.

I was essentially trying to say the same thing Andaluciae did but was far too hung over to be anything near as eloquent as him.

-snip-
I can't say I invest that much emotion in a flag, and I don't really understand people who do.

Yes, but why?
I've been in the scouts in Germany for a bit as a kid, and I can't imagine ANYTHING those guys would revere. I would imagine the British scouts are pretty similar.
Because they're the BSA. Why does it have to be a "thing" that needs to, or even can be, explained?
Why do people wear those stupid cancer ribbons? And what's up with being respectful to the dead? Do we really need televised sports? Why bother with love? What of roses? Fashion isn't essential. Halitosis isn't fatal. Jokes are unnecessary. Praying doesn't solve anything. Holidays? Just an excuse to get off the job. Kids are such a drain, why have any?

I think as far as national pride goes, nobody can really hold his/her own against the British. But they tend not to fix the whole pride-thing on one object... I find this all very strange indeed.

I disagree. It is called the Queen.:p:p

*cough*nativeamericans*cough*



Here's the thing that confuses me. The Qi question was. Who burns most American flags. The answer was the American Boyscouts because burning a flag is the proper way to dispose of it.

I struggle to remember a British flag getting burnt, but I don't think it would bother us to the extent it seems to bother Americans.

Yep.
Someone earlier said that the flag to the US is a bit like the national team for England... only I think David Beckham is a little less flammable.

I disagree. It is called the Queen.:p:p

*lol
Let me guess, you're not British, are you? ;)

*lol
Let me guess, you're not British, are you? ;)

No...but I know plenty of them. :wink:

*cough*nativeamericans*cough*



Here's the thing that confuses me. The Qi question was. Who burns most American flags. The answer was the American Boyscouts because burning a flag is the proper way to dispose of it.

I struggle to remember a British flag getting burnt, but I don't think it would bother us to the extent it seems to bother Americans.

Yes the groups who would burn are not trying to dispose of it properly. It is a middle finger salute to what Americans are or it is some group with an axe to grind thinking it is somehow related to freedom of speech. I suppose it is freedom of speech when you get down to it. It will normally get a response.

I disagree. It is called the Queen.:p:p

If some American boyscouts ran off with the Queen, I don't think I'd be outraged. Maybe dying of laughter:)

Because they're the BSA. Why does it have to be a "thing" that needs to, or even can be, explained?
Why do people wear those stupid cancer ribbons? And what's up with being respectful to the dead? Do we really need televised sports? Why bother with love? What of roses? Fashion isn't essential. Halitosis isn't fatal. Jokes are unnecessary. Praying doesn't solve anything. Holidays? Just an excuse to get off the job. Kids are such a drain, why have any?

I'm just curious on a psychological basis, that's all. And it appears to be a very odd thing to be emotional about.

Unusual.
Unique.

Yep.
Someone earlier said that the flag to the US is a bit like the national team for England... only I think David Beckham is a little less flammable.

That has yet to be proved. And I think it should be proved quickly! :gundge:

We mourn as a nation by lowering our flag to half mast.
Most countries do that, though, too. Most countries have similar rules regarding the handling of flags and how they ought to be flown next to other flags, and loads of similar things. The USA isn't particularly special in those aspects. Where it is special, however, is the sheer amount of flags that appear to be in your nation. Your average British person rarely comes in to contact with the Union Flag, so has little idea on how to handle it or, indeed, that there are special ways in which to handle a nation's flag.

Yep.
Someone earlier said that the flag to the US is a bit like the national team for England... only I think David Beckham is a little less flammable.
Beckham just won't stand still long enough for me to get a proper flame going, that's all.

If some American boyscouts ran off with the Queen, I don't think I'd be outraged. Maybe dying of laughter:)

I dare you, American boy scouts, to mess with the Queen. They wouldn't survive it.


On the positive side. Americans don't waste so much money on their flag as the British on their Queen.

I can't say I invest that much emotion in a flag, and I don't really understand people who do.

Freedom is only a word until you lose it.

Yes the groups who would burn are not trying to dispose of it properly. It is a middle finger salute to what Americans are or it is some group with an axe to grind thinking it is somehow related to freedom of speech. I suppose it is freedom of speech when you get down to it. It will normally get a response.

Yes, but why?
Seriously, if people burned pictures of the queen, the Brits would maybe raise an eyebrow at the originality, but that would be it.
When the USAmericans started pouring French wine down their drains at the start of the Iraq war, the French were laughing because their wine sales skyrocketed for a few weeks.

Yet the USAmericans can be so easily annoyed about something so essentially trivial... it's weird.

Yes the groups who would burn are not trying to dispose of it properly. It is a middle finger salute to what Americans are or it is some group with an axe to grind thinking it is somehow related to freedom of speech. I suppose it is freedom of speech when you get down to it. It will normally get a response.

But why is burning it the proper disposal method?

*Person A finds Person B burning a US flag*

A: Hey asshole why are you burning our flag? Do you hate America Commie?
B: No! it got a bit tatty so I'm patriotically burning it out of respect.
A: That's ok man. USA!

Freedom is only a word until you lose it.

What's that got to do with cloth?

In Mexico a poet was prosecuted and had to pay 50 pesos (less than 5 dollars) for writing a poem insulting the Mexican flag.

http://noticias.terra.com/articulo/html/act1244046.htm

A singer had to pay 5,000 pesos for posing semi-nude with the Mexican flag.

And a singer was also prosecuted for singing the national anthem wrong during a sports event.

LOL

What's that got to do with cloth?

Or with anything regarding this thread?:confused:

If some American boyscouts ran off with the Queen, I don't think I'd be outraged. Maybe dying of laughter:)
Who wouldn't? Everyone knows that kidnapping is inherently funny.
Seriously, Kafka's The Trial, the TV version of Excel Saga, Father Ted, the idea of the Roaming Gnome, etc. The idea of a person being stolen is just ridiculous.

I dare you, American boy scouts, to mess with the Queen. They wouldn't survive it.


On the positive side. Americans don't waste so much money on their flag as the British on their Queen.

They would soon discover that the whole royal family are reptilian space reptiles who drink blood.

In Mexico a poet was prosecuted and had to pay 50 pesos (less than 5 dollars) for writing a poem insulting the Mexican flag.

http://noticias.terra.com/articulo/html/act1244046.htm

Joder! Pero sabes una cosa. El orgullo que sienteis vosotros los mexicanos por vuestra patria es algo que admiro muchísimo.

I dare you, American boy scouts, to mess with the Queen. They wouldn't survive it.


On the positive side. Americans don't waste so much money on their flag as the British on their Queen.

Probably do actually, depending how you mean waste (see all the flags that get thrown away etc right after the DNC and RNC's). The Queen's wealth is mostly private iirc.

yeah

but you cant take the flag and not get a big reaction from a boyscout. reverence for the flag is a big part of their traditions.

Umm well I was a boyscout, and a cubscout too, and it was not that big a deal.

Joder! Pero sabes una cosa. El orgullo que sienteis vosotros los mexicanos por vuestra patria es algo que admiro muchísimo.

Y es algo que yo detesto. El patriotismo futbolero mexicano es sólo una expresión de una terrible xenofobía reprimida.

They would soon discover that the whole royal family are reptilian space reptiles who drink blood.

And have weird REAL weird sexual inclinations.

Yes, but why?
Seriously, if people burned pictures of the queen, the Brits would maybe raise an eyebrow at the originality, but that would be it.
When the USAmericans started pouring French wine down their drains at the start of the Iraq war, the French were laughing because their wine sales skyrocketed for a few weeks.

Yet the USAmericans can be so easily annoyed about something so essentially trivial... it's weird.
i guess y'all arent very patriotic.

*shrug*

Y es algo que yo detesto. El patriotismo futbolero mexicano es sólo una expresión de una terrible xenofobía reprimida.

A eso no es a lo que me refiero. De hecho, el fútbol a mi me la suda. Hablo del amor que vosotros sienteis por vuestro país. No confundas fanatismo deportivo con xenofobia o con orgullo patrio.

I seem to remember that the actual question on QI was 'Who burns the most US flags?' - and the answer was the Boy Scout Association of America.

i guess y'all arent very patriotic.

*shrug*

I'm not so sure... I've met few people in life more partiotic than the Brits or the French... fiercely so. Just... more rational about it in a way. Patriotism with a sense for irony still intact, if you want.

I seem to remember that the actual question on QI was 'Who burns the most US flags?' - and the answer was the Boy Scout Association of America.

Yes, that's correct.

Yes, but why?
Seriously, if people burned pictures of the queen, the Brits would maybe raise an eyebrow at the originality, but that would be it.
When the USAmericans started pouring French wine down their drains at the start of the Iraq war, the French were laughing because their wine sales skyrocketed for a few weeks.

Yet the USAmericans can be so easily annoyed about something so essentially trivial... it's weird.


Think of the American experience. Then ask yourself why do they care about a flag. We have been to brink many times and come back. Wars, wars, so many wars. Through it all, thick and thin it was there. When you look at the flag each one of those star represents a state. When you look at the flag you see yourself as part of a bigger set of stars, standing for the same purpose.

It is emotional, it is a symbol of patriotism, it makes us feel good.

I don't know if it's been said already, but the Boy Scouts are not a good example of average U.S. citizens anymore (if they ever were). They are a private organization that is considered to be fairly conservative (they ban women and gays, "require" a belief in God, etc.). We need to distinguish between two groups, as an example: those who support the freedom to burn the flag, and those who do not. Those who do not probably overreact when it is stolen, too. That's just my opinion.

You're kidding with this question right?

Americans are taught, from a very early age, that the flag represents the country, it's principles and the sacrifices made by those who died fighting in its wars.

It's a symbol. The flag itself isn't important. What its supposed to represent is important.

Perhaps it's foolish but that's the way symbols work.

Umm well I was a boyscout, and a cubscout too, and it was not that big a deal.
but not in the US.

Americans would appear to be suprisingly Jingoistic in flag related affairs.

Think of the American experience. Then ask yourself why do they care about a flag. We have been to brink many times and come back. Wars, wars, so many wars. Through it all, thick and thin it was there. When you look at the flag each one of those star represents a state. When you look at the flag you see yourself as part of a bigger set of stars, standing for the same purpose.

It is emotional, it is a symbol of patriotism, it makes us feel good.

I'm originally from Germany, living in Ireland. The US hasn't had a fraction of the wars these societies have seen. If anything, it has made them care less about flags, and more about facts.
So why did the US go the opposite way?

A eso no es a lo que me refiero. De hecho, el fútbol a mi me la suda. Hablo del amor que vosotros sienteis por vuestro país. No confundas fanatismo deportivo con xenofobia o con orgullo patrio.

El patriotismo futboleroa veces patriotERsimo futobolero es una expresión mexicana. Dejame explicar. Aun que el patriotismo futbolero tiene su máxima expresión en las canchas de fútbol (de ahí el nombre), no es exclusivo de los estadios. Con esta expresión los mexicanos se refieren a las personas que son muy vocales y decididas (especialmente en prescencia de extranjeros) sobre su "patriotismo". Cantan el himno de viva voz con la mano en el corazón y gritan a todo pulmon su amor por la patría pero, al igual que en las canchas de fútbol, cuando las cosas no salen bien se borran.

Carlos Fuentes alguna vez describio esta actitud, llevar la camiseta de la selección mexicana puesta por encima y debajo la de Brasil. Aun que es una analogía futbolera, Fuentes se refería a una actitud del ambito político.

You're kidding with this question right?

Americans are taught, from a very early age, that the flag represents the country, it's principles and the sacrifices made by those who died fighting in its wars.

It's a symbol. The flag itself isn't important. What its supposed to represent is important.

Perhaps it's foolish but that's the way symbols work.

I'm sure there are those who believe that symbols are completely stupid, and that we should never remember anything that America did in a good light. We should be constantly embarassed by our own stupidity and taken to task for everything our ancestors did wrong.

So why did the US go the opposite way?

Pehraps the US is too much of a young nation.

You're kidding with this question right?

Americans are taught, from a very early age, that the flag represents the country, it's principles and the sacrifices made by those who died fighting in its wars.

It's a symbol. The flag itself isn't important. What its supposed to represent is important.

Perhaps it's foolish but that's the way symbols work.

Yes, but they're not taught by superior robot overlords, are they?
So where does the whole flag-worshipping have its roots? What's the psychological trigger?

Freedom is only a word until you lose it.

Yeah I agree, but a flag is not freedom, it is a flag.

I'm originally from Germany, living in Ireland. The US hasn't had a fraction of the wars these societies have seen. If anything, it has made them care less about flags, and more about facts.
So why did the US go the opposite way?
what kind of answer are you looking for?

we are a country that is very into our flag.

there is no other answer.

Pehraps the US is too much of a young nation.

Younger than Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa.... ?

what kind of answer are you looking for?

we are a country that is very into our flag.

there is no other answer.

I'm looking for the why. There's millions of people who think that way, and I'm trying to figure out what went different in their history, why they are different.... how do they tick? And why do they tick that way, and not another way?

It isn't the age of a nation. The flag-craze of the US is part of their ideas of excepcionalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

but not in the US.

Which goes to show that it is USA thing rather than a boyscout thing.

El patriotismo futboleroa veces patriotERsimo futobolero es una expresión mexicana. Dejame explicar. Aun que el patriotismo futbolero tiene su máxima expresión en las canchas de fútbol (de ahí el nombre), no es exclusivo de los estadios. Con esta expresión los mexicanos se refieren a las personas que son muy vocales y decididas (especialmente en prescencia de extranjeros) sobre su "patriotismo". Cantan el himno de viva voz con la mano en el corazón y gritan a todo pulmon su amor por la patría pero, al igual que en las canchas de fútbol, cuando las cosas no salen bien se borran.

Por esa razón es que a mi no me gusta el fútbol. La única y última vez que fui a ver un partido, estaba de vacances en Galicia. Fui con mi peña a ver un juego entre el Celta de Vigo y el Depor de A Coruña. A mitad de partido, fanáticos de ambos equipos comenzaron a insultarse en español y en gallego. La cosa se puso violenta y hubo hasta broncas. Todo por fanatismo deportivo. Por esa razón no me pillan en un partido, aunque me paguen por ir.

Carlos Fuentes alguna vez describio esta actitud, llevar la camiseta de la selección mexicana puesta por encima y debajo la de Brasil. Aun que es una analogía futbolera, Fuentes se refería a una actitud del ambito político.

Eso ya vendría a ser una falta de respeto. Gente cómo esa existe en todos los países. Pero sentir amor por la patria no es una cosa que se deba detestar.

I'm looking for the why. There's millions of people who think that way, and I'm trying to figure out what went different in their history, why they are different.... how do they tick? And why do they tick that way, and not another way?
its been explained.

we take it as a serious symbol of our country and everything we stand for.

some people take it more seriously than others.

im sure that you will find that there are places in the UK where if i walked into a local pub and yelled "fuck queen elizabeth and the horse she rode in on" a fight would ensue.

Which goes to show that it is USA thing rather than a boyscout thing.
its a us boyscout thing.

not that its limited to the scouts.

Younger than Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa.... ?

In terms of compariosn between places like your native Germany, or Ireland, where you live, yes, the US is young by those standards.

Drive through Long Island, NY. You see them everywhere. Drive through New York City, NY ditto. Texas has more flags than home in some cases. We love our flag. Every cop car, every postal truck. For a while there it was tapering off. Then 9/11 came, bam!

Okay now we have to get serious! We can't let those @#$%^&* win. We are going to take the fight to them. Next thing you know the Military gets involved ... you know the rest of the story.

But why is burning it the proper disposal method?

*Person A finds Person B burning a US flag*

A: Hey asshole why are you burning our flag? Do you hate America Commie?
B: No! it got a bit tatty so I'm patriotically burning it out of respect.
A: That's ok man. USA!

There really aren't many ways to dispose of it. One could just throw it in the trash, but since the flag would get dirty and such it's considered disrespectful.

Also, proper flag disposal isn't just burning the flag. You're supposed to cut the blue field from the stars, which then apparently makes it not a flag anymore, and then burn the two component parts.

Por esa razón es que a mi no me gusta el fútbol. La única y última vez que fui a ver un partido, estaba de vacances en Galicia. Fui con mi peña a ver un juego entre el Celta de Vigo y el Depor de A Coruña. A mitad de partido, fanáticos de ambos equipos comenzaron a insultarse en español y en gallego. La cosa se puso violenta y hubo hasta broncas. Todo por fanatismo deportivo. Por esa razón no me pillan en un partido, aunque me paguen por ir.



Eso ya vendría a ser una falta de respeto. Gente cómo esa existe en todos los países. Pero sentir amor por la patria no es una cosa que se deba detestar.

Seguro que gente cómo esa existe en todos los paises. Pero en Mexico es una forma de ser, no un problema de individuos aislados. Es algo característico y una forma de hacer política que lleva siglos,.

My theory is that there really aren't that many things that are seen as "American", unlike things that are seen as "British" so we don't really have many things to focus our national pride on.

This.

Our national history highlights the fact that we aren't a coherant nation. The 13 original states revolted against the crown, but that leaves 37 states (well, really, 35 since Maine and West Virginia were parts of other states at the time) that didn't. The middle of the nation was ruled by France and were purchased. Some parts revolted against first Spain, then Mexico. And other parts were fully independent kingdoms with no ties to Europe at all, with an entirely unique culture, history, and language. There is little to our shared history.

The citizens come from cultures that have hated eachother for eons. Where our states share little, our people share less. We have no national religion. We have no national history. Where many countries have their epic history (Odyssey, Aeneid, Faerie Queene, etc), we are left with a national motto that highlights our differences: "E pluribus unum"...out of many, one.

Every culture needs a way to unite. Religion was frequently used (Inquisition, England and the shift to protestantism, etc), but the US speicifically made it impossible. In its place, we have moved to revere our symbols: the Constitution and Declaration of Independence (protected in a bomb proof shelter as if the loss of the original copy would somehow make the words mean less), and the flag (protected and revered for what it symbolizes to the extent that some are willing to remove rights in order to protect it).

Seguro que gente cómo esa existe en todos los paises. Pero en Mexico es una forma de ser, no un problema de individuos aislados. Es algo característico y una forma de hacer política que lleva siglos,.

Si eso es así, es una lástima.

its been explained.

we take it as a serious symbol of our country and everything we stand for.

some people take it more seriously than others.

im sure that you will find that there are places in the UK where if i walked into a local pub and yelled "fuck queen elizabeth and the horse she rode in on" a fight would ensue.

To be honest, no, I don't think you'd find a single pub like that. First off, it would have to be a very, VERY posh place indeed, as normal people usually don't give a toss about royalty.
And secondly those kind of people don't tend to start bar fights. You may not get served, though.

And, no it hasn't been explained. The obvious has been stated again and again, sometimes more emotional, sometimes less so, but the underlying reason is still a mystery to me.

Si eso es así, es una lástima.

Es así Siete Lunas. :(

El patriotismo en México es en muchos casos un patriotismo hipócrita. Y una pandemia entre los políticos.

To be honest, no, I don't think you'd find a single pub like that. First off, it would have to be a very, VERY posh place indeed, as normal people usually don't give a toss about royalty.
And secondly those kind of people don't tend to start bar fights. You may not get served, though.

And, no it hasn't been explained. The obvious has been stated again and again, sometimes more emotional, sometimes less so, but the underlying reason is still a mystery to me.
then i guess there is something wrong with you that you dont understand symbols.

if you dont understand it yet, you wont get a more satisfactory answer.

To be honest, no, I don't think you'd find a single pub like that. First off, it would have to be a very, VERY posh place indeed, as normal people usually don't give a toss about royalty.
And secondly those kind of people don't tend to start bar fights. You may not get served, though.

And, no it hasn't been explained. The obvious has been stated again and again, sometimes more emotional, sometimes less so, but the underlying reason is still a mystery to me.

In Europe, you're more likely to start a fight if you publicly insult a local sports team.

So, if I'm in Manchester, and I insult Manchester United while everyone in the pub is watching the match on Sky Sports, I'm going to get my ass beat.

Es así Siete Lunas. :(

El patriotismo en México es en muchos casos un patriotismo hipócrita. Y una pandemia entre los políticos.

Y yo que creía que era un sentimiento genuino. Vamos, yo he estado en México, pero no lo suficiente cómo para analizar ese aspecto de los mexicanos. Espero que en algún futuro no muy lejano eso cambie.

In Europe, you're more likely to start a fight if you publicly insult a local sports team.

So, if I'm in Manchester, and I insult Manchester United while everyone in the pub is watching the match on Sky Sports, I'm going to get my ass beat.

True, definitely.
Although it might depend on the pub... if you went into a ManCity pub, you'd be just fine.

The only way to know if British are as craze as Americans would be burning David Beckham and see how they react.

In Europe, you're more likely to start a fight if you publicly insult a local sports team.

So, if I'm in Manchester, and I insult Manchester United while everyone in the pub is watching the match on Sky Sports, I'm going to get my ass beat.

Like it's anything different here in the US...try saying something bad about the Celtics on any bar on Canal Street during playoffs and see what happens to you.

The only way to know if British are as craze as Americans would be burning David Beckham and see how they react.

My name is Nanatsu no Tsuki and I approve this message.

then i guess there is something wrong with you that you dont understand symbols.

if you dont understand it yet, you wont get a more satisfactory answer.

I understand symbols.
But every single country on this planet has a flag. Every least single one.
Yet the US is the only one I've ever heard of where people can get worked up to near apoplexy about it... and I want to know why.

The only way to know if British are as craze as Americans would be burning David Beckham and see how they react.

If they have any sense, they'll make sure that Posh gets burned, too.

Like it's anything different here in the US...try saying something bad about the Celtics on any bar on Canal Street during playoffs and see what happens to you.

It is VERY different. You can actually walk away from a Boston bar after badmouthing the Celtics during the playoffs. You WONT walk away from a Manchester pub is you badmouth the United in a "pre-season" match. Seriously.

I understand symbols.
But every single country on this planet has a flag. Every least single one.
Yet the US is the only one I've ever heard of where people can get worked up to near apoplexy about it... and I want to know why.

Every nation has its symbol that they hold above the rest and is odd to outsiders. Ours happens to be the flag for, in my opinion, the reasons I said before. It's the same reason why there were tons of flowers left outside the palace when Diana died.

If they have any sense, they'll make sure that Posh gets burned, too.

I'm betting they will get outraged if you burn Beckhamm. But when they notice Posh is in the pyre too they will forgive you and go on with their businesses.

It is VERY different. You can actually walk away from a Boston bar after badmouthing the Celtics during the playoffs. You WONT walk away from a Manchester pub is you badmouth the United in a "pre-season" match. Seriously.

Very true. The Mancs can be scary. I've seen them react.

Like it's anything different here in the US...try saying something bad about the Celtics on any bar on Canal Street during playoffs and see what happens to you.

Indeed. When I was deployed half of my brigade was from the Michigan Guard and the other half was from the Ohio Guard. Things were REALLY tense the night of the Michigan v. Ohio State football game.

I understand symbols.
But every single country on this planet has a flag. Every least single one.
Yet the US is the only one I've ever heard of where people can get worked up to near apoplexy about it... and I want to know why.
because we take it seriously and you dont.

There really aren't many ways to dispose of it. One could just throw it in the trash, but since the flag would get dirty and such it's considered disrespectful.
Apparently the correct way to dispose of a Union flag (although this is some obscure Navy regulation that may not apply outside of it) is to rip it up into small bits then bin it. Unless it's seen action in which case you can frame it etc. Do any other nations burn their flags out of respect for them, anyone know?


Also, proper flag disposal isn't just burning the flag. You're supposed to cut the blue field from the stars, which then apparently makes it not a flag anymore, and then burn the two component parts.
I continue finding the idea weird:tongue:

let's examine this problem.I've recently seen an old episode of QI how old an episode?
tells this story about when he was in the Boy Scouts and went to this international convention-camp. so a long time ago.
Apparently, the US delegation had their tents right next to the British scouts.. US delegation? British scouts? why the two different classifications? either both are delegations, or both are scouts.
The US scouts would - with great pomp and serenity - put up their flag each morning, and take it down every night.
At first, that greatly amused the British scouts glad you were amused. the flag raising and lowering is a cerimony required of the scouts. think of it as a daily exercise. Depending how old this person retelling the tale is, that would put this in the mid 80's ish. the flag ceremony was seriously held then.
After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. so... the British scouts got annoied by the customs of another nation? sounds like someone needed a lession in tolerance. ;)
So one day, they stole the flag and hid it. Translation: So one day, the British scouts committed an act of international theft. what are they teaching British scouts back then?
This, apparently, almost led to an international incident. Theft of another nation's symbol? Duh! :rolleyes:
The US scouts took it very badly, and with quite exaggerated reaction, as it seemed to the Brits. After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious. Nobody had been glued to the latrines, or doused in icy water. so you view a theft as 'nothing'? worse, not a theft of anything of value but a theft done out of pettiness as nothing? just because YOU deem it valueless, doesn't mean that it has no value. what if that flag was given to the child by his father when he was a scout?

The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs. a panel of... who and what?
So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it? As flags go, it's not even a particularly pretty one... not to ugliest, but not the prettiest, either. So why all the outrage over it getting burned now and again (which, it has to be said, is the only reason why it DOES get burned in the first place), why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about? I think the problem is not that the US flag was stolen, but the trust between two international scouting groups were betrayed when one went into the others tent and absconded with property that isn't theirs.

The Boy Scout law starts with a Scout is Trustworthy. whomever it was that was leading this QI, only showed that the British scouts, back then, were not trustworthy and gave a poor showing of England back then.

because we take it seriously and you dont.

This is probably the best answer. There's a lot of meaning behind that flag. Like the country or not, you can't say they don't recognize or care about how they started out.

I'm Canadian, and spent about a decade int he scouting system here. While we're a little less about patriotism, There are things that you come to associate with a flag. I don't mind being patriotic at all.

I continue finding the idea weird:tongue:

Yeah, it's all very ritualistic. Part of the whole "national secular religion" thing Andaluciae talked about.

In Europe, you're more likely to start a fight if you publicly insult a local football team.

So, if I'm in Manchester, and I insult Manchester United while everyone in the pub is watching the match on Sky Sports, I'm going to get my ass beat.

Fixed, rugby fans are generally far more enlightened about such things.:tongue:

then i guess there is something wrong with you that you dont understand symbols.

if you dont understand it yet, you wont get a more satisfactory answer.

I think Cabra understands symbols fine, what she is trying to understand is why the emotional response which appers to be national over this one symbol.

It is a valid question and is about humanity and the differances between us.

let's examine this problem. how old an episode?
so a long time ago.
US delegation? British scouts? why the two different classifications? either both are delegations, or both are scouts.
glad you were amused. the flag raising and lowering is a cerimony required of the scouts. think of it as a daily exercise. Depending how old this person retelling the tale is, that would put this in the mid 80's ish. the flag ceremony was seriously held then.
so... the British scouts got annoied by the customs of another nation? sounds like someone needed a lession in tolerance. ;)
Translation: So one day, the British scouts committed an act of international theft. what are they teaching British scouts back then?
Theft of another nation's symbol? Duh! :rolleyes:
so you view a theft as 'nothing'? worse, not a theft of anything of value but a theft done out of pettiness as nothing? just because YOU deem it valueless, doesn't mean that it has no value. what if that flag was given to the child by his father when he was a scout?

a panel of... who and what?
I think the problem is not that the US flag was stolen, but the trust between two international scouting groups were betrayed when one went into the others tent and absconded with property that isn't theirs.

The Boy Scout law starts with a Scout is Trustworthy. whomever it was that was leading this QI, only showed that the British scouts, back then, were not trustworthy and gave a poor showing of England back then.

All of which has absolutely nothing to do with addressing the question she posed.

The flag is this made of cloth.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

I think Cabra understands symbols fine, what she is trying to understand is why the emotional response which appers to be national over this one symbol.

It is a valid question and is about humanity and the differances between us.
i think that she cant and you cant.

the flag is a symbol of our country and what we stand for. therefore when you insult this symbol you insult us.

its a symbol.

we take it seriously. you dont. there is no more explanation to it.

let's examine this problem. how old an episode?
so a long time ago.
Recent episode, old story.


US delegation? British scouts? why the two different classifications? either both are delegations, or both are scouts.
Both are both. It was an Int'l scouting thingy. With delegations of scouts.


glad you were amused. the flag raising and lowering is a cerimony required of the scouts. think of it as a daily exercise. Depending how old this person retelling the tale is, that would put this in the mid 80's ish. the flag ceremony was seriously held then.
Probably what amused them.


so... the British scouts got annoied by the customs of another nation? sounds like someone needed a lession in tolerance. ;)
More porbably the noise etc first thing in the morning.


Translation: So one day, the British scouts committed an act of international theft. what are they teaching British scouts back then?
Traditional British Army ideas:)


Theft of another nation's symbol? Duh! :rolleyes:
At a boyscouts convention?


so you view a theft as 'nothing'? worse, not a theft of anything of value but a theft done out of pettiness as nothing? just because YOU deem it valueless, doesn't mean that it has no value. what if that flag was given to the child by his father when he was a scout?


a panel of... who and what?

British comedians iirc.


I think the problem is not that the US flag was stolen, but the trust between two international scouting groups were betrayed when one went into the others tent and absconded with property that isn't theirs.

The Boy Scout law starts with a Scout is Trustworthy. whomever it was that was leading this QI, only showed that the British scouts, back then, were not trustworthy and gave a poor showing of England back then.

Essentially the British saw this as a harmless practical joke, not expecting the apparent huge outrage reaction of the Americans.

we take it seriously.

who is this "we" you speak of?

The flag is this made of cloth.
snip idealistic view of US
Equally theoretically applies elsewhere. Doesn't really explain the US obsession with flags.

I think Cabra understands symbols fine, what she is trying to understand is why the emotional response which appers to be national over this one symbol.

It is a valid question and is about humanity and the differances between us.

Yes, but it's like asking "Why do Christians react to a cross in this manner?" or "Why do Muslims react to the image of Muhammed in this manner?" or "Why do the Chinese associate red with loyalty, while the west associates it with hookers?". It's because that symbol is important to them. There've been several good explanations about our historical and cultural backgrounds that have lead to the reverence of the flag, but if one is looking for deeper or more reasoning, then Ashmoria's "Because we do, and you don't" is about as much as can be said.

who is this "we" you speak of?

People to whom the symbol holds meaning, of course.

who is this "we" you speak of?
we, the in-general american who is into the flag.

we have over 300million citizens. not everyone feels the same way about everything.

the question of "why are americans so into the flag?" is as silly as "why arent brits into their flag?"

we are, they arent. its not that one is better than the other or more normal than the other. its tradition.

People to whom the symbol holds meaning, of course.

that's horribly self referential...

Both are both. It was an Int'l scouting thingy. With delegations of scouts. symantics. one gives the connotation of being kids, the other supposidly a little more dignity. [I'll let you readers decide which for whom.] ;)

More porbably the noise etc first thing in the morning. Lord help them if they were next to the groups that sang songs every night. (yes, they do exist)

Traditional British Army ideas:) so... 1) the British scouts is the prep for the army?
2) and the British army encourages theft?

At a boyscouts convention? according to your story, it was the US flag they took, so yes, it was a national symbol. Now if they took the TROOP flag... then I would be more inclined to agree. like taking a high school mascot or something.

British comedians iirc. ah, then that makes more sense.

Essentially the British saw this as a harmless practical joke, not expecting the apparent huge outrage reaction of the Americans.not saying it wasn't a joke, but some thought should've gone into the prank. say, double knotting the rope, putting a slipknot halfway up the rope to stop the flag at the halfway point, taking the Toop flag or even the classic of running someone underwear up the flagpoll. all those would've been seen more of a joke than anything else. especially when 1) dealing with an international group and 2) they know how much the flag ceremony means to those US Scouts.

symantics. one gives the connotation of being kids, the other supposidly a little more dignity. [I'll let you readers decide which for whom.] ;)

Lord help them if they were next to the groups that sang songs every night. (yes, they do exist)
Nights would be fine. Knowing our scouts they probably had hangovers.


so... 1) the British scouts is the prep for the army?
2) and the British army encourages theft?

Used to be, not officially any more. Traditionally I'd imagine stealing an American flag would've been medalworthy:)


according to your story, it was the US flag they took, so yes, it was a national symbol. Now if they took the TROOP flag... then I would be more inclined to agree. like taking a high school mascot or something.
Eh, I still don't think something like that at a boyscouts convention merits getting governments involved.


ah, then that makes more sense.
For those unaware, Qi is a humorous quiz show.


not saying it wasn't a joke, but some thought should've gone into the prank. say, double knotting the rope, putting a slipknot halfway up the rope to stop the flag at the halfway point, taking the Toop flag or even the classic of running someone underwear up the flagpoll. all those would've been seen more of a joke than anything else. especially when 1) dealing with an international group and 2) they know how much the flag ceremony means to those US Scouts.

*takes notes and emails to scouts*

All of which has absolutely nothing to do with addressing the question she posed.

actually, the question was answered. ;)

let's examine this problem. how old an episode?
so a long time ago.
US delegation? British scouts? why the two different classifications? either both are delegations, or both are scouts.
glad you were amused. the flag raising and lowering is a cerimony required of the scouts. think of it as a daily exercise. Depending how old this person retelling the tale is, that would put this in the mid 80's ish. the flag ceremony was seriously held then.
so... the British scouts got annoied by the customs of another nation? sounds like someone needed a lession in tolerance.
Translation: So one day, the British scouts committed an act of international theft. what are they teaching British scouts back then?
Theft of another nation's symbol? Duh!
so you view a theft as 'nothing'? worse, not a theft of anything of value but a theft done out of pettiness as nothing? just because YOU deem it valueless, doesn't mean that it has no value. what if that flag was given to the child by his father when he was a scout?

a panel of... who and what?
I think the problem is not that the US flag was stolen, but the trust between two international scouting groups were betrayed when one went into the others tent and absconded with property that isn't theirs.

The Boy Scout law starts with a Scout is Trustworthy. whomever it was that was leading this QI, only showed that the British scouts, back then, were not trustworthy and gave a poor showing of England back then.

however, the question also included the overreaction to the taking of the flag. you have only one person's memory and interpretation as to what they were reacting to, the flag being stolen. I'm offering another option that the reaction could've been to the fact that a theft occured in a function where everyone is SUPPOSED to be trustworthy.

Yes, but it's like asking "Why do Christians react to a cross in this manner?" or "Why do Muslims react to the image of Muhammed in this manner?" or "Why do the Chinese associate red with loyalty, while the west associates it with hookers?". It's because that symbol is important to them. There've been several good explanations about our historical and cultural backgrounds that have lead to the reverence of the flag, but if one is looking for deeper or more reasoning, then Ashmoria's "Because we do, and you don't" is about as much as can be said.


Heh I don't for a second think any of your examples are valid. Patriotism and religon are differant.

The differance between red in differant cultures is interesting though, and can be put down to cultural differances, but what Cabra wishes to discuss is why such emotional response on over this one symbol?

As I have said earlyer on, when it comes to insult it really is the hands of the person being insulted to choose to be insulted or not. So why do a large amount of US Americans take insult when somebody denigrates the flag?

i think that she cant and you cant.

the flag is a symbol of our country and what we stand for. therefore when you insult this symbol you insult us.

its a symbol.

we take it seriously. you dont. there is no more explanation to it.

You are completely wrong of course. I do understand symbolism, how can an ex-Pagan not?

My wedding band is a symbol of my marriage, if I were ever to loose it, I would purchase another. Why, because my marriage is the important thing not the symbol.

You are completely wrong of course. I do understand symbolism, how can an ex-Pagan not?

My wedding band is a symbol of my marriage, if I were ever to loose it, I would purchase another. Why, because my marriage is the important thing not the symbol.
you dont understand that symbols are important to some people? that maybe your wife might feel differently about that wedding ring than you do? that some other man might spend years looking for that ring.

do you really only understand your own feelings and not get that someone else might have different ones?

Nights would be fine. Knowing our scouts they probably had hangovers. oh gods... that was the British group?!?! :eek: :p

Used to be, not officially any more. Traditionally I'd imagine stealing an American flag would've been medalworthy:) but less reaction if the troop flag was taken.

Eh, I still don't think something like that at a boyscouts convention merits getting governments involved. it's an international event. also, those from other countries are citizens of their home country. any wrong doing could get the governments invovled. like that kid who did the graffitti in Singapore.

For those unaware, Qi is a humorous quiz show. good to know. ;)

*takes notes and emails to scouts*
oh, the pranks our 'patrols' did to one another... :D

we had only Four Rules.
1) no one gets hurt.
2) when the patrol leader says "STOP" the pranks STOP.
3) Troop leaders and patrol leaders are NOT targets (Unless they play a prank, then that person becomes an open target)
4) no pranks on the second to last night of camping. the only exception is overnight and 2 day camps.

You are completely wrong of course. I do understand symbolism, how can an ex-Pagan not?

My wedding band is a symbol of my marriage, if I were ever to loose it, I would purchase another. Why, because my marriage is the important thing not the symbol.

Exactly, the flag is just a symbol, much like the bald eagle and now, the WTC towers. What's important is what they represent, not the symbols per se.

Heh I don't for a second think any of your examples are valid. Patriotism and religon are differant.Actually, they're almost identical. One is worship of the state and its symbols and rituals (look at the massive number of symbols and rituals in the inaugaration alone.) The other is worship of a particular god or gods and its associated symbols and rituals.

The differance between red in differant cultures is interesting though, and can be put down to cultural differances, but what Cabra wishes to discuss is why such emotional response on over this one symbol?
Because of those same cultural differences that lead to red meaning loyalty in location X and whores in location Y. The same cultural differences that lead to the French hating the Germans, but the Austrians being pretty okay with them.

In short, because we do. And you don't.
As I have said earlyer on, when it comes to insult it really is the hands of the person being insulted to choose to be insulted or not. So why do a large amount of US Americans take insult when somebody denigrates the flag?
New Wallonochia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14431531&postcount=8), Andaluciae (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14431610&postcount=21), and I (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14432225&postcount=120) have all provided explanations.

you dont understand that symbols are important to some people? that maybe your wife might feel differently about that wedding ring than you do? that some other man might spend years looking for that ring.

do you really only understand your own feelings and not get that someone else might have different ones?

Ahh I think we are getting somewhere. Of course I understand that, the question is why? Why these differances, what is it about the US psychy that is responsible for the adoration of your flag, and the British psychy that is responsible for our more relaxed attitude to our flag?

After all we both have national flags we are all human, yet there are clearly differances, the question is, has been from the start, and remains why?

2) and the British army encourages theft?

Probably not "theft" as such, but pretty much every army unofficially encourages the "reallocation of equipment".

There's an old saying: There's only one thief in the Army, everyone else is just trying to get their shit back.

Ahh I think we are getting somewhere. Of course I understand that, the question is why? Why these differances, what is it about the US psychy that is responsible for the adoration of your flag, and the British psychy that is responsible for our more relaxed attitude to our flag?

After all we both have national flags we are all human, yet there are clearly differances, the question is, has been from the start, and remains why?

Why do the Chinese think of loyalty with red, and we think of prostitution?

Cultural differences.

Probably not "theft" as such, but pretty much every army unofficially encourages the "reallocation of equipment".

There's an old saying: There's only one thief in the Army, everyone else is just trying to get their shit back.

Where's the high speed gear you were supposed to be issued? Well, there's some fobbit remf who got it instead - not that he has any use for it...

I think your overstating the facts a bit OP, we don't worship the flag, we respect it. We don't bow down and chant for five hours "Oh merciful flag" (and no, pledging to the flag isn't the same thing) we display it with pride because as so many have said, it's simply a symbol of our pride as a nation. It's no different than if you wear a cross, a Yakima, or heck even an Anarchy T-Shirt.

The flag was made during the American Revolution, at a time when we were breaking away from the British, it was our ultimate symbol of us becoming independent and not being the British proxy.

Why we display more so in comparison to other nations? I don't know, and frankly I don't care.

Why do the Chinese think of loyalty with red, and we think of prostitution?

Cultural differences.

Yes cultrual differances, but you know there are underlying reasons for these cultrural diffrances, and using that line as an answer doesn't really answer anything. What are the underlying reasons?

Yes cultrual differances, but you know there are underlying reasons for these cultrural diffrances, and using that line as an answer doesn't really answer anything. What are the underlying reasons?
Read the three posts I linked to.

I think your overstating the facts a bit OP, we don't worship the flag, we respect it. We don't bow down and chant for five hours "Oh merciful flag" (and no, pledging to the flag isn't the same thing) we display it with pride because as so many have said, it's simply a symbol of our pride as a nation. It's no different than if you wear a cross, a Yakima, or heck even an Anarchy T-Shirt.

The flag was made during the American Revolution, at a time when we were breaking away from the British, it was our ultimate symbol of us becoming independent and not being the British proxy.

Why we display more so in comparison to other nations? I don't know, and frankly I don't care.

Now that is a resonable answer, yet the question then becomes why can you not let that history go, it was after all several hundered years back, no one living can remember it.

Ahh I think we are getting somewhere. Of course I understand that, the question is why? Why these differances, what is it about the US psychy that is responsible for the adoration of your flag, and the British psychy that is responsible for our more relaxed attitude to our flag?

After all we both have national flags we are all human, yet there are clearly differances, the question is, has been from the start, and remains why?
when you can answer why one man will go out and replace his wedding ring while the other will spend years looking for the original one, you will know the answer.


people are different. there are no big explanations.

Read the three posts I linked to.

Well I only noticed two post and the first was much along the same old line 'because we do' and the second from Andaluciae, yes that makes more sense to me.

when you can answer why one man will go out and replace his wedding ring while the other will spend years looking for the original one, you will know the answer.


people are different. there are no big explanations.

Heh sit man, of course there are big explanations, what you mean is that you are not concerned with them.

Where's the high speed gear you were supposed to be issued? Well, there's some fobbit remf who got it instead - not that he has any use for it...

Precisely.

Well I only noticed two post and the first was much along the same old line 'because we do' and the second from Andaluciae, yes that makes more sense to me.

I'm assuming by the first post you're talking about mine, and I wasn't saying anything remotely like "because we do".

Heh sit man, of course there are big explanations, what you mean is that you are not concerned with them.
then tell me what that big explanation is.

it has been explained to my satisfaction in many posts in this thread. we are taught to respect the flag. what more do you need to know?

then tell me what that big explanation is.

it has been explained to my satisfaction in many posts in this thread. we are taught to respect the flag. what more do you need to know?

I don't know, thats why I ask.

Precisely.



I'm assuming by the first post you're talking about mine, and I wasn't saying anything remotely like "because we do".

Yes it was you post.

You said:

'My theory is that there really aren't that many things that are seen as "American", unlike things that are seen as "British" so we don't really have many things to focus our national pride on.'

Which is sort of a cop out. There are many, many things that spring to my mind when the word American is mentioned(and I'm sure yours too). You can feel pride in the strength of your army, your position on the world stage, and until recently your fiscal strength, your business, and dare I say it your new president.

These you can focus your national pride on, the flag, well it's just a symbol of the country you live innit!

Yes it was you post.

You said:

'My theory is that there really aren't that many things that are seen as "American", unlike things that are seen as "British" so we don't really have many things to focus our national pride on.'

Which is sort of a cop out. There are many, many things that spring to my mind when the word American is mentioned(and I'm sure yours too). You can feel pride in the strength of your army, your position on the world stage, and until recently your fiscal strength, your business, and dare I say it your new president.

These you can focus your national pride on, the flag, well it's just a symbol of the country you live innit!
President changes every 4-8 years. That isn't a lasting unifying symbol. The armed forces, power, and fiscal strength aren't symbols...they just are. Oddly enough, they are some of the things represented by the symbol of the flag. Physical things rarely unite...symbols do because they represent an amalgamation of the physical realities.

What is about the American psyche?

It is because we are a nation of underdogs. We have been kicked around and put down may every major power in Europe. Most of were force to leave for one reason or another. We came here by choice many of us. We want to be the best. We want to be the ones who get it right. We want to be liked. We want to be respected. The flag is the manifestation of what we are as a country.

Nice over-emotional speech, but it doesn't really answer the question, does it?

It sure does.

Well, I'm damn proud of the Canadian flag and I think it looks pretty too.

I've recently seen an old episode of QI, in which Stephen Fry (or Alan Davis, I can't remember right now) tells this story about when he was in the Boy Scouts and went to this international convention-camp.
Apparently, the US delegation had their tents right next to the British scouts. The US scouts would - with great pomp and serenity - put up their flag each morning, and take it down every night.
At first, that greatly amused the British scouts.
After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. So one day, they stole the flag and hid it. This, apparently, almost led to an international incident. The US scouts took it very badly, and with quite exaggerated reaction, as it seemed to the Brits. After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious. Nobody had been glued to the latrines, or doused in icy water.

The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs.
So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it? As flags go, it's not even a particularly pretty one... not to ugliest, but not the prettiest, either. So why all the outrage over it getting burned now and again (which, it has to be said, is the only reason why it DOES get burned in the first place), why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about?

My question is ... why doesn't the Brits feel protective of their flag as us Americas do?

Well, I'm damn proud of the Canadian flag and I think it looks pretty too.

Naturally. You're, after all, Canadian. The OP just wonders why is it that Americans are so über proud of theirs and take it to extremes. Several posters have given theories as to why.

Naturally. You're, after all, Canadian. The OP just wonders why is it that Americans are so über proud of theirs and take it to extremes. Several posters have given theories as to why.

The concept is, it is the symbol of your home, with all the positive connotations of the concept of home. Also if it stands up for something you believe in, it should also make u proud.

But American flag...I'm not sure, but I think it has too much dirt now, kinda like the German flag. Iraq war, Vietnam, 2 nuclear bombs, slavery...

The concept is, it is the symbol of your home, with all the positive connotations of the concept of home. Also if it stands up for something you believe in, it should also make u proud.

But American flag...I'm not sure, but I think it has too much dirt now, kinda like the German flag. Iraq war, Vietnam, 2 nuclear bombs, slavery...

Be that as it may, they're very proud of it. Of course, I'm not saying every single American is that way. I'm sure there are some very non-patriotic, screw the flag Americans out there. It happens in every country. But a majority does loves its flag. Pride is a double-edged sword, I think.

And have weird REAL weird sexual inclinations.

We already KNOW that. At least none of our public figures are on the record as wanting to be reincarnated as tampons. :P

Also, this thread is getting increasingly silly. I vote that now we start demanding that the Europeans explain the deep, profound psychological reasons that they don't especially care about flags. It seems just as valid a question. :tongue:

Also, this thread is getting increasingly silly. I vote that now we start demanding that the Europeans explain the deep, profound psychological reasons that they don't especially care about flags. It seems just as valid a question. :tongue:

Eh... scuse me ma'am. I care about my province's and country's flags. Quite a lot. Just not obssessively.:tongue:

My question is ... why doesn't the Brits feel protective of their flag as us Americas do?

Partly there's some ambivalence about it. A long history of separation between the countries of the UK and a lot of people identify with national flags (the Welsh don't even get represented on the Union flag).

Plus (and this is now a pure speculation) the UK has a less idealised view of its history than the US, we know how much shit we've done over the years under that flag (known as the butcher's apron for awhile). So we've much less of a optimistic view of our nation. From what I've seen of American television saying "The US is the greatest country on earth" is seen as almost a truism and not generally contested. Say that in the UK and you'd be laughed out of the building.

Plus in fairly recent history there was a strong connection between British flags and national front movements that turned people off it.

So if you burnt our flag, we probably wouldn't care.
Dump our tea in the sea however, that's cause for war!

Eh... scuse me ma'am. I care about my province's and country's flags. Quite a lot. Just not obssessively.:tongue:

Interesting how the generalization about Americans stands, but not a generalization about Europeans. One might almost conclude that such generalizations are a bit silly, there isn't some universal American obsessive love of the flag, and that, as several people have said, Boy Scouts are simply taught to take it very seriously. Almost! ;)

Interesting how the generalization about Americans stands, but not a generalization about Europeans. One might almost conclude that such generalizations are a bit silly, there isn't some universal American obsessive love of the flag, and that, as several people have said, Boy Scouts are simply taught to take it very seriously. Almost! ;)

The problem is the Almost.:p

Me iz kiddin'.

Nice over-emotional speech, but it doesn't really answer the question, does it?

He didn't mention his mother's cooking. Give him credit.

He didn't mention his mother's cooking. Give him credit.

Could that have won him the argument?

Interesting how the generalization about Americans stands, but not a generalization about Europeans. One might almost conclude that such generalizations are a bit silly, there isn't some universal American obsessive love of the flag, and that, as several people have said, Boy Scouts are simply taught to take it very seriously. Almost! ;)

Or that America is more culturally homogenous than the Europe?

Or that America is more culturally homogenous than the Europe?

The Europe?

The concept is, it is the symbol of your home, with all the positive connotations of the concept of home. Also if it stands up for something you believe in, it should also make u proud.

But American flag...I'm not sure, but I think it has too much dirt now, kinda like the German flag. Iraq war, Vietnam, 2 nuclear bombs, slavery...

The nation has its missteps. One of the reasons that the flag is revered is because it represents the ideals of the nation, not the reality of it.

The flag doesn't represent our failings to the US. It doesn't represent Vietnam, Iraq, nuclear weapons, slavery, the trail of tears, etc. It represents the ideals of freedom the nation was founded upon. It represents the constitution, declaration of freedom, bill of rights, and several intangibles (the American work ethic, pulling oneself up by the bootstraps, the "American Dream", etc).

Or that America is more culturally homogenous than the Europe?

Europe isn't a single nation, as the US is. And yes, our cultures are vastly different across the country.

Poli can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe what she meant by Europeans and their flag was a shorthand way of saying "Spaniards and the Spanish flag, Frenchmen and the French flag, Germans and the German flag, etc.". I believe she meant it at an individual nation level, not the continental level.

The nation has its missteps. One of the reasons that the flag is revered is because it represents the ideals of the nation, not the reality of it.

The flag doesn't represent our failings to the US. It doesn't represent Vietnam, Iraq, nuclear weapons, slavery, the trail of tears, etc. It represents the ideals of freedom the nation was founded upon. It represents the constitution, declaration of freedom, bill of rights, and several intangibles (the American work ethic, pulling oneself up by the bootstraps, the "American Dream", etc).

We are a bit picky, eh? The flag represents US, good and bad.

Europe isn't a single nation, as the US is. And yes, our cultures are vastly different across the country.

Poli can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe what she meant by Europeans and their flag was a shorthand way of saying "Spaniards and the Spanish flag, Frenchmen and the French flag, Germans and the German flag, etc.". I believe she meant it at an individual nation level, not the continental level.

Then explain THIS:

http://www.pira-testing.com/pt/fpm/images/EU_flag.jpg

Then explain THIS:

http://www.pira-testing.com/pt/fpm/images/EU_flag.jpg

That represents the European Union, but each country still retains its national flag.

Then explain THIS:

http://www.pira-testing.com/pt/fpm/images/EU_flag.jpg

That actually represents 2 entities.

Council of Europe (in which US is an observer :D) and EU

Edit: Oh Canada is an observer too so I guess I can wave that flag being proud of our observer-ness :D

Then explain THIS:

http://www.pira-testing.com/pt/fpm/images/EU_flag.jpg

That's a logo in flag form for convenience. Plus it's pretty.

We are a bit picky, eh? The flag represents US, good and bad.
To you. To those that revere the flag, not so much.
Beauty of symbols is that they are easily interpreted in many different ways.
Then explain THIS:

http://www.pira-testing.com/pt/fpm/images/EU_flag.jpg

The EU is a nation that contains every part of Europe?

Yes it was you post.

You said:

'My theory is that there really aren't that many things that are seen as "American", unlike things that are seen as "British" so we don't really have many things to focus our national pride on.'

Which is sort of a cop out. There are many, many things that spring to my mind when the word American is mentioned(and I'm sure yours too). You can feel pride in the strength of your army, your position on the world stage, and until recently your fiscal strength, your business, and dare I say it your new president.

These you can focus your national pride on, the flag, well it's just a symbol of the country you live innit!

Those are things people can feel pride in but, as Sarkhaan noted, they aren't symbols. Those aren't unifying national characteristics. We're not as united as we like to pretend we are, and never have been. Prior to the Civil War the majority of Americans considered allegiance to the US to be secondary to allegiance to their state. In fact, most of the modern trappings of American patriotism and identity didn't really come into wide use until WWII.

To explain why I think we're such flag fetishists let me use a rather poor analogy, but one I hope will make sense.

The US is insecure about its identity and cohesiveness as a nation much like a man is insecure about his masculinity. Now imagine this insecure man goes out and buys a huge pickup truck, puts huge wheels on it a gigantic engine with a blower and other assorted silliness. This guy cares deeply about this truck because to him it not only represents his masculinity but reaffirms to himself that it's there. If you said anything negative about this truck he'd freak out a lot more than a secure guy whose Ford Taurus you just made fun of.

Europe isn't a single nation, as the US is. And yes, our cultures are vastly different across the country.

Is the US a single nation? I'm not so sure about that. Unless you're talking about by political organization, of course.

The Europe?
Exactly!

Interesting how the generalization about Americans stands, but not a generalization about Europeans. One might almost conclude that such generalizations are a bit silly, there isn't some universal American obsessive love of the flag, and that, as several people have said, Boy Scouts are simply taught to take it very seriously. Almost! ;)


Europe isn't a single nation, as the US is. And yes, our cultures are vastly different across the country.

Poli can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe what she meant by Europeans and their flag was a shorthand way of saying "Spaniards and the Spanish flag, Frenchmen and the French flag, Germans and the German flag, etc.". I believe she meant it at an individual nation level, not the continental level.
Perhaps, I see it differently. As a "if you can't make generalisations about Europe why can you about the US" thing. And the USA is imho more culturally homogenous than Europe.

That represents the European Union, but each country still retains its national flag.

*sigh*

Those are things people can feel pride in but, as Sarkhaan noted, they aren't symbols. Those aren't unifying national characteristics. We're not as united as we like to pretend we are, and never have been. Prior to the Civil War the majority of Americans considered allegiance to the US to be secondary to allegiance to their state. In fact, most of the modern trappings of American patriotism and identity didn't really come into wide use until WWII.

To explain why I think we're such flag fetishists let me use a rather poor analogy, but one I hope will make sense.

The US is insecure about its identity and cohesiveness as a nation much like a man is insecure about his masculinity. Now imagine this insecure man goes out and buys a huge pickup truck, puts huge wheels on it a gigantic engine with a blower and other assorted silliness. This guy cares deeply about this truck because to him it not only represents his masculinity but reaffirms to himself that it's there. If you said anything negative about this truck he'd freak out a lot more than a secure guy whose Ford Taurus you just made fun of.
Not as bad of an analogy as you thought. That actually works pretty well.

Prior to the civil war, the New England states almost seceded from the union. To this day, there are secession movements in Texas, California, the Pacific Northwest, New England, Vermont...

The US is massive. In many areas, we are still more tied to our city, state, or region than the nation. One group that is working to study this is http://www.commoncensus.org/ .

We don't have hundreds upon hundreds of years of nationhood. European nations have something of a mythic association with the land...as I mentioned before, the great epics are a part of this. Americas myth is much younger and less ingrained. Aaron Copeland's "Fanfare for the Common Man" was only written in the 1940's. Whitman's "Song of Myself" was published first in 1855. These are two of the major cultural embodiments of what "America" is, and both are incredibly young. Compare this to the cultural achievements and embodiments of European nations, and you'll understand just how new and weak the "American culture" tie is.

*sigh*

And you're sighing for?

Is the US a single nation? I'm not so sure about that. Unless you're talking about by political organization, of course.

In the truest sense of nation, no. But yeah, I use "nation" synonymously with "country" and sometimes "state"

That actually represents 2 entities.

Council of Europe (in which US is an observer :D) and EU

Edit: Oh Canada is an observer too so I guess I can wave that flag being proud of our observer-ness :D

hey we make Great observers .. .as long as u don't ask us to get all upset bout what were observing lol

We don't have hundreds upon hundreds of years of nationhood. European nations have something of a mythic association with the land...as I mentioned before, the great epics are a part of this. Americas myth is much younger and less ingrained. Aaron Copeland's "Fanfare for the Common Man" was only written in the 1940's. Whitman's "Song of Myself" was published first in 1855. These are two of the major cultural embodiments of what "America" is, and both are incredibly young. Compare this to the cultural achievements and embodiments of European nations, and you'll understand just how new and weak the "American culture" tie is.

Well, neither do Australia and New Zealand, just to give two examples. Yet they don't share this adoration of the flag (or other national symbol of choice).

Yes, I know that we are all different. Yet there are 300 million people in the US, and many of them share this high regard of their flag. On the other hand, there are millions of people in the rest of the world who don't. They may like their flag, but compared to the US a very, very small minority would own a flag of their country (to give a tangible example of the abstract concept of flag adoration).
I'm not so much interested in the individual's psychology that would make him or her care about a symbol in a different way. I'm interested in when and why this was turned into a mass phenomenon.

...the british are just jeaous that we can tell which way is up on our flag. :Þ

...the british are just jeaous that we can tell which way is up on our flag. :Þ

:eek:
Rofl!

...the british are just jeaous that we can tell which way is up on our flag. :Þ

I wonder how they show distress? The usual way is to fly the flag upside down.

I wonder how they show distress? The usual way is to fly the flag upside down.

They don't show distress, that's ungentlemanly. Stiff upper lip and all that.

They don't show distress, that's ungentlemanly. Stiff upper lip and all that.

Excuse me, if anything distinguishes the British is that they're always stiff.:tongue:

Well, neither do Australia and New Zealand, just to give two examples. Yet they don't share this adoration of the flag (or other national symbol of choice).

Yes, I know that we are all different. Yet there are 300 million people in the US, and many of them share this high regard of their flag. On the other hand, there are millions of people in the rest of the world who don't. They may like their flag, but compared to the US a very, very small minority would own a flag of their country (to give a tangible example of the abstract concept of flag adoration).
I'm not so much interested in the individual's psychology that would make him or her care about a symbol in a different way. I'm interested in when and why this was turned into a mass phenomenon.
Much of it comes from the mythos that we have created in the last 200 some years. We have sought to seperate ourselves from Europe, while New Zealand and Australia have remained tied by means of the Commonwealth.
Look at the title of Copeland's piece: Fanfare for the Common Man. Fanfares are something regal, but this is for the common man. Our mythos has been that we are a distinct, seperate group that is somehow different or special than the rest of the world. The American Dream. American exceptionalism. Even, to some extent, the legacy of manifest destiny. These are abstract concepts that have become part of the flag symbol.

I wonder how they show distress? The usual way is to fly the flag upside down.

They scream and run around flapping their arms, I thought that's what everybody did?

They don't show distress, that's ungentlemanly. Stiff upper lip and all that.

Maybe that's why the British Navy stopped being such a powerhouse. EVERYONE went down with the ship.

"This looks like the end, Captain!"
"Yes, midshipman, but don't worry. I have all of you to keep me company!"

Much of it comes from the mythos that we have created in the last 200 some years. We have sought to seperate ourselves from Europe, while New Zealand and Australia have remained tied by means of the Commonwealth.
Look at the title of Copeland's piece: Fanfare for the Common Man. Fanfares are something regal, but this is for the common man. Our mythos has been that we are a distinct, seperate group that is somehow different or special than the rest of the world. The American Dream. American exceptionalism. Even, to some extent, the legacy of manifest destiny. These are abstract concepts that have become part of the flag symbol.

I think something similar has been pointed out before. It raised the question if this concept hasn't outlived its usefulness, though? Isn't it holding back the development of "natural" (as opposed to designed) symbols of identity?

@ Original Poster

The big thing about it is it symbolizes our country. It symbolizes that as the flag is always raised high above the ground, our country will never waver, never submit, and never fall. That is why it can never touch the ground. It symbolizes our rising above the British when we originally formed in order to create a greater society established by the people, for the people, with liberty and justice for all.

I've recently seen an old episode of QI, in which Stephen Fry (or Alan Davis, I can't remember right now) tells this story about when he was in the Boy Scouts and went to this international convention-camp.
Apparently, the US delegation had their tents right next to the British scouts. The US scouts would - with great pomp and serenity - put up their flag each morning, and take it down every night.
At first, that greatly amused the British scouts.
After a while, the pomp and seriousness became annoying. So one day, they stole the flag and hid it. This, apparently, almost led to an international incident. The US scouts took it very badly, and with quite exaggerated reaction, as it seemed to the Brits. After all, it was just a practically useless piece of cloth that had been nicked, nothing even remotely serious. Nobody had been glued to the latrines, or doused in icy water.

The panel agreed that they simply couldn't comprehend the reaction - or the USAmericans' over-attachement to that flag of theirs.
So what is it? Why do they feel so strongly about it? As flags go, it's not even a particularly pretty one... not to ugliest, but not the prettiest, either. So why all the outrage over it getting burned now and again (which, it has to be said, is the only reason why it DOES get burned in the first place), why the teary eyes and the pompous music when pulling it up a flag pole? What's this about?

Making general sweeping statements about ALL Americans based on the actions of children is about as pompous as it gets.

Excuse me, if anything distinguishes the British is that they're always stiff.:tongue:

God, I wish... *eyes her BF*

God, I wish... *eyes her BF*

Roflmfao!!!:D

Making general sweeping statements about ALL Americans based on the actions of children is about as pompous as it gets.

Ever heard of the concept of "giving an example to illustrate a point"? :rolleyes:

@ Original Poster

The big thing about it is it symbolizes our country. It symbolizes that as the flag is always raised high above the ground, our country will never waver, never submit, and never fall. That is why it can never touch the ground. It symbolizes our rising above the British when we originally formed in order to create a greater society established by the people, for the people, with liberty and justice for all.

^ This level of indoctrination is why you USians are so obsessive over your flag. You patriots recite those words without actually understanding what they mean, or how they relate to you. You become puppets of the propaganda your culture forces down your throat.

@ Original Poster

The big thing about it is it symbolizes our country. It symbolizes that as the flag is always raised high above the ground, our country will never waver, never submit, and never fall. That is why it can never touch the ground. It symbolizes our rising above the British when we originally formed in order to create a greater society established by the people, for the people, with liberty and justice for all.

Yes, yes... this and similar emotional things have been posted before.
It doesn't really answer the question why the USAmericans make so much more fuss about their flag than any other nation I can think of.

I wonder how they show distress? The usual way is to fly the flag upside down.

the Union Flag is flown with the broad horizontal strip towards flag pole

I think something similar has been pointed out before. It raised the question if this concept hasn't outlived its usefulness, though? Isn't it holding back the development of "natural" (as opposed to designed) symbols of identity?

I'm not so sure it is entirely designed...atleast, not moreso than other cultures have their "designed" elements. American exceptionalism and the American dream are concepts that grew out of our culture naturally as we struggled to define who we were...we were no longer British, that was clear. But without being British, what was left? Well, the fact that most people came to the colonies for a new beginning was a big thing. As was the idea of religious "freedom". The fact that people chose to come here was something unique and different. This created the abstract concepts that we, as a people, were somehow unique and different and posessed that intangible something. The ideas arose naturally in a struggle to identify.

The application to the flag was a mix of natural and designed. People started to apply these ideas to the flag in a way that was different from the rest of the world because a) the flag is pervasive as compared to the Constitution or Declaration of Independence and b) we lack other symbols. This was picked up upon, and built upon with things like the daily pledge and singing the anthem before major events.

Has it outlived its usefulness? I don't think so. As New Wallonochia said, our big national culture only arose around World War II, and is still something of dick waving. The actual coherant culture to back it up just isn't there yet.

Something along these lines

God, Country, State, City, District, neighborhood, family, individual

You can invert the stack but you usually get the same order. Some people argue against the top order.

Yes, yes... this and similar emotional things have been posted before.
It doesn't really answer the question why the USAmericans make so much more fuss about their flag than any other nation I can think of.

Probably for the same reason residents of other countries make huge fusses over things that we Americans can't understand in the least.

Yes, yes... this and similar emotional things have been posted before.
It doesn't really answer the question why the USAmericans make so much more fuss about their flag than any other nation I can think of.

are you looking for a specific answer?

we've given you alot of reasons, including the emotional value placed on flags. yet it's not enough. what do you want as an answer since what others said doesn't seem to be good enough.

Ever heard of the concept of "giving an example to illustrate a point"? :rolleyes:

So some boy scouts being sad about their missing flag illustrates that ALL Americans have an over-attachment to it?? Please! :D

Did it ever occur to you that maybe these boy scouts got upset because they're children? Your "point illustrations" need work.

Yes, yes... this and similar emotional things have been posted before.
It doesn't really answer the question why the USAmericans make so much more fuss about their flag than any other nation I can think of.

I am still not sure which answer you are looking for? Why shouldn't it provoke an emotional response?

So some boy scouts being sad about their missing flag illustrates that ALL Americans have an over-attachment to it?? Please! :D

Did it ever occur to you that maybe these boy scouts got upset because they're children? Your "point illustrations" need work.

No. More 'most people agree that Americans have a greater level of feeling towards their flag than other countries. Witness their extensive flag code and other general events. Here is a short story that reminded me of this and gives an example'. No-one has even really questioned Americans closer attachment to their flag. It's fairly well accepted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megaloria
I wonder how they show distress? The usual way is to fly the flag upside down.

the Union Flag is flown with the broad horizontal strip towards flag pole

Interesting. I suppose the only other way would be some really good binoculars to check the size of the stripes (the UK flag is not infact, symmetrical).

Well its national pride. I'm british and i'd be insulted if someone wrecked our flag unnessacarily. It was a bit mean to take the flag away why not just put a union flag up every day.
Because it's hilarious and patriotism is for stupids.

@ Original Poster

The big thing about it is it symbolizes our country. It symbolizes that as the flag is always raised high above the ground, our country will never waver, never submit, and never fall. That is why it can never touch the ground.
Other than at night-time?
It symbolizes our rising above the British when we originally formed in order to create a greater society established by the people, for the people, with liberty and justice for all.
I thought it symbolised all your territories and shit like that.

Americans are passionate about country about a lot of things really. We are patriotic. We are sentimental. We are emotional. We are sensitive. We are compassionate.

Or that America is more culturally homogenous than the Europe?

Hehe, "the Europe."

Honestly, I'm not so sure we are. Europeans often seem to assume as much because we're one country instead of several, but I see at least as much difference between your average New Yorker, Texan, and Californian as I do between your average Englishman, Frenchman, and Pole.

Anyway, my essential points are that (a) to suggest that "Americans" feel a certain way on the basis of one group of Boy Scouts is about as silly as to suggest that "Europeans" feel a certain way on the basis of one group of British schoolchildren, (b) to suggest that this "American" viewpoint requires explanation while the "European" one is obviously the natural order of things sounds more than a little condescending, and (c) the question as to why MORE Americans seem to care deeply about their flag than do residents of many other countries has been answered thoroughly and repeatedly. Sarkhaan, among others, pretty much nailed it. I will add slightly to what he said by noting that the US is somewhat unique among countries in that the overwhelming majority of the population is directly descended from comparatively recent immigrants, which means, as a people, we kinda chose to be American. It gives a rather different perspective on one's country.

Well, I've seen some Brits who get all bent out of shape about snarky remarks about the Queen, too.

are you looking for a specific answer?

we've given you alot of reasons, including the emotional value placed on flags. yet it's not enough. what do you want as an answer since what others said doesn't seem to be good enough.

The only explanation that seems to get pointed out now and again (between endless posts of patriotic prose) is that it got pushed up as a national point of identification.

I can understand that in the context of the 19th century, where I would imagine forming a society out of a mix of immigrants posed quite a political challenge and a flag was a simple and handy thing to use.

However, in the meantime I would argue that a quite distinctive USAmerican national identity has evolved (as is quite normal), so the clinging to the flag as something more than what it actually is seems odd to me.
I'm trying to understand why this glorification is still ongoing to this extend.
There simply is no similar symbol-cum-identification in any other nation that I'm aware of.

Maybe because a lot of people died to defend the country and values that flag represents? It's a symbol of all of the positive aspects of our country and a reminder that we've got a duty to preserve those freedoms and that progress...disrespecting it really is a slap in the face to the millions of people both civilian and military who invest their time and lives to preserving and improving our nation and ensuring its continued prosperity, freedom and safety.

Well, I've seen some Brits who get all bent out of shape about snarky remarks about the Queen, too.
Aye but yer issue there is that the Queen is a person who does a lot for the country, whereas a flag is... eh... well it's just a flag, isn't it? A scrap of cloth.

Aye but yer issue there is that the Queen is a person who does a lot for the country, whereas a flag is... eh... well it's just a flag, isn't it? A scrap of cloth.

I don't think the point is the Queen as a person but rather as a symbol.

I don't think the point is the Queen as a person but rather as a symbol.
The Queen isn't really a symbol for much of anything. Her use isn't so much as a unifying figure, it's as a tourist attraction and diplomat.

Well, I've seen some Brits who get all bent out of shape about snarky remarks about the Queen, too.

Where do you find those guys? I've so far only met Brits who take the piss about her themselves...

The Maple leaf. It doesn't even have to be on a flag.

The other ones tend to be animals. Kangaroo. Bald Eagle. Beaver. Bull Dog. Panda.

well, I have no objection to flag burning, but theft isn't a laughing matter. The flag has a prominent place in our history - the Star-Spangled Banner at Fort McHenry, the Stars & Stripes vs. the Stars & Bars, "These colors never run," the Iwo Jima flag raising, the moon landing - the history makes it a lot more than a piece of cloth for a lot of people. I don't really understand the cloth worship myself (Why the hell am I expected to pledge allegiance to a rather flammable piece of fabric, anyway???) but it does seem like a poor choice for a boarding school style prank.

*edit* and if the tale is presented as happening within a couple decades after WW2, it's really no surprise that the Yankee scouts were so offended. The USA flag played a prominent role in Allied propaganda posters and newsreels, and was almost a sacred relic in the battle against the Kraut menace. Patriotism was akin to religion then.

The Queen isn't really a symbol for much of anything. Her use isn't so much as a unifying figure, it's as a tourist attraction and diplomat.

That right there would make her symbol, don't you think?