NationStates Jolt Archive

And what does that have to do with the CIA?

The CIA had/has the files.

What if (as I suggested earlier) they have a lifespan of 100s of millions of years? And maybe all they have ever tried to do is help? Maybe they detected the Hiroshima & Nagasaki nukes of 1945 and said WTF? Then the reports from WW II about what they called foo fighters. (UFOs helping against the Nazis) Maybe they are the ones that helped Moses.
Care to give any rational reason why they haven't turned Earth into a paradise of milk & honey then and why would the CIAetc seek to cover the benevolence up?

The problem you have (and so does the source you linked to) is that you apparently have never considered that the reason that no president gets information about UFO's... is that there is nothing to learn. So - when all these people don't say anything, it's because there's nothing to say... not because they're covering up.

And - again... why do you keep talking about the CIA? 'UFO' research would come under the Air Force remit...

If nothing is there, why can't we buy the files in our local bookstore?

The CIA had/has the files.

And Elvis lives. And Jesus was spotted on the I-49 peeling rubber on a Harley...

If nothing is there, why can't we buy the files in our local bookstore?

Can you buy the source code for Windows XP in your local bookstore?

What if (as I suggested earlier) they have a lifespan of 100s of millions of years? And maybe all they have ever tried to do is help? Maybe they detected the Hiroshima & Nagasaki nukes of 1945 and said WTF? Then the reports from WW II about what they called foo fighters. (UFOs helping against the Nazis) Maybe they are the ones that helped Moses.

Aliens helped... Moses?

Awesome. A space race that there's no actual evidence to support, assisted a mythical character there's no actual evidence to support.

Cool. Why not throw The Hulk in there too?

And... you do know that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings were at the end of the Second World War... right? If Aliens spotted those nukes and came to help, they'd have had to travel back in time to fight the Nazis....

Care to give any rational reason why they haven't turned Earth into a paradise of milk & honey then and why would the CIAetc seek to cover the benevolence up?

Warp speed technology and whatever else would not make someone an actual God. Just a Godlike appearence.

What if (as I suggested earlier) they have a lifespan of 100s of millions of years? And maybe all they have ever tried to do is help? Maybe they detected the Hiroshima & Nagasaki nukes of 1945 and said WTF? Then the reports from WW II about what they called foo fighters. (UFOs helping against the Nazis) Maybe they are the ones that helped Moses.

And maybe I have UFOs flying out of my ass. This argument is just as credible.

Aliens helped... Moses?

Awesome. A space race that there's no actual evidence to support, assisted a mythical character there's no actual evidence to support.

Cool. Why not throw The Hulk in there too?

And... you do know that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings were at the end of the Second World War... right? If Aliens spotted those nukes and came to help, they'd have had to travel back in time to fight the Nazis....

Mythical character? Moses? Pharoh? So who built all that shit in egypt? Aliens? :tongue:

The CIA had/has the files.

Which files?

I already explained - UFO investigation, as and when it happens, would be an AIR FORCE job, not a CIA job. If it were above the atmosphere that the material was being investigated, you MIGHT have the justification for a NASA operation, but ultimately it would STILL come down to USAF.

You keep asking why the CIA doesn't release files... that YOU think they have. Maybe they don't release them because the CIA doesn't have any UFO data, USAF does.

This is sad bordering on derangement...

If nothing is there, why can't we buy the files in our local bookstore?

Why can't you buy the files that don't exist in you local bookshop?

That's a serious question?

Which files?

The ones dilivered to Bill Clinton in 1993. (remember the pallet jacks they had to use?)

Mythical character? Moses? Pharoh? So who built all that shit in egypt? Aliens? :tongue:

*lost for words*

Which Pharaoh? We have evidence of pharaohs.

Moses, not so much. Aliens, not so much. The Hulk, not so much. Hence the connection I made.

The ones dilivered to Bill Clinton in 1993. (remember the pallet jacks they had to use?)

No, I don't remember. Refresh my memory. I'm getting a little wary of what to expect when I say it but... sources?

(Preferably something that isn't a blog...)

*lost for words*

Which Pharaoh? We have evidence of pharaohs.

Moses, not so much. Aliens, not so much. The Hulk, not so much. Hence the connection I made.

So then non-slaves built Egypt? They must have had an awful low minimum wage back then.
:rolleyes:

So then non-slaves built Egypt? They must have had an awful low minimum wage back then.
:rolleyes:

'Built Egypt'?

What are you, eight?

Warp speed technology and whatever else would not make someone an actual God. Just a Godlike appearence.

No, but you must realize the potential such beings would necessarily have and could thus give to humans:

- Infinite resources through interplanetary harvesting

- Infinite food production capability

- Infinite living space in asteroid colonies

- Infinite energy supply in compact size

- Interstellar travel, if solar system grows too small.

- etc...


(to be more accurate replace infinite with a <LARGE NUMBER> instead).

Ok, ok...I also came up with one more paranoid scenario:
- Earth is a retro-amusement park of sorts, we don't matter to the UFOs beyond entertainment value and governments want to keep this a secret because we can't fight back at any foreseeable future. They also actively curb scientific progress and constantly indoctrinate new members of government to full compliance. If a person fails to comply he or she disappears without a trace.

'Built Egypt'?

What are you, eight?

So you no nothing about ancient Egypt. You weren't paying attention when Clinton said he wanted to know about UFOs and who shot JFK? (which gave him a huge boost in the polls) You should read more often, watch the history channel or something.

No, but you must realize the potential such beings would necessarily have and could thus give to humans:

- Infinite resources through interplanetary harvesting

- Infinite food production capability

- Infinite living space in asteroid colonies

- Infinite energy supply in compact size

- Interstellar travel, if solar system grows too small.

- etc...


(to be more accurate replace infinite with a <LARGE NUMBER> instead).

Ok, ok...I also came up with one more paranoid scenario:
- Earth is a retro-amusement park of sorts, we don't matter to the UFOs beyond entertainment value and governments want to keep this a secret because we can't fight back at any foreseeable future. They also actively curb scientific progress and constantly indoctrinate new members of government to full compliance. If a person fails to comply he or she disappears without a trace.

For Roswell, I'm sticking with: They detected nukes in Japan and said "WTF??"

So you no nothing about ancient Egypt. You weren't paying attention when Clinton said he wanted to know about UFOs and who shot JFK? (which gave him a huge boost in the polls) You should read more often, watch the history channel or something.

Slaves didn't 'build Egypt' Mr "I don't need evidence!"

Slaves on the other hand, did build Egyptian pyramids.

So you no nothing about ancient Egypt. You weren't paying attention when Clinton said he wanted to know about UFOs and who shot JFK? (which gave him a huge boost in the polls) You should read more often, watch the history channel or something.

For real?

You just asked ME who 'built Egypt', a nationstate that solidified over 3500 years... and you're saying I need to pay attention?

You've suggested that Egypt was 'built' by slaves, or maybe by aliens... and I'm the one who needs to watch the history channel?

I'm trying to decide if you are someone's parody account, or if you are for real...

(And you even mangle the things you say I said... I said I didn't remember Clinton having a huge pallet-truck of stuff delivered as you claim, which you've still not sourced).

Slaves didn't 'build Egypt' Mr "I don't need evidence!"

Slaves on the other hand, did build Egyptian pyramids.

And the temples and the palaces.

So then what? They just said "Screw you guys. I'm going home" and split for Israel? And Ramses gave them their complememtry coffee & cake and sent them merrily on their way?

Slaves didn't 'build Egypt' Mr "I don't need evidence!"

Slaves on the other hand, did build Egyptian pyramids.

In all probability, Egyptians built Egyptian pyramids. Although various Pharaohs throughout Egyptian history were slaveholders, not all of them were. And even those that were probably wouldn't have allowed actual slaves to do any building of the pyramid structures themselves (although they could have been put to use harvesting materials, etc) because of the way Egyptian society protected information, especially ceremonial/religious information.

We have archeological evidence suggesting entire worker-cities lived in the shadows of the pyramids, during their extended construction periods, with pretty much all the requisites of a city in it's own right. The most likely scenario is that pyramids were built much in the same way that public works projects might get done - in the off-season, by farm labourers, etc.

And the temples and the palaces.

So then what? They just said "Screw you guys. I'm going home" and split for Egypt? And Ramses gave them their complememtry coffee & cake and sent them merrily on their way?

Ramses wasn't a slaveholder. And slaves wouldn't have been allowed to build temples or palaces during most of Pharaonic history.

Ramses wasn't a slaveholder. And slaves wouldn't have been allowed to build temples or palaces during most of Pharaonic history.

The slaves made the bricks. Ramses was the damm Pharaoh

In all probability, Egyptians built Egyptian pyramids. Although various Pharaohs throughout Egyptian history were slaveholders, not all of them were. And even those that were probably wouldn't have allowed actual slaves to do any building of the pyramid structures themselves (although they could have been put to use harvesting materials, etc) because of the way Egyptian society protected information, especially ceremonial/religious information.

We have archeological evidence suggesting entire worker-cities lived in the shadows of the pyramids, during their extended construction periods, with pretty much all the requisites of a city in it's own right. The most likely scenario is that pyramids were built much in the same way that public works projects might get done - in the off-season, by farm labourers, etc.

True enough, I had forgotten about that bit. You're right that they wouldn't have let the slaves near any sensitive stuff, since they probably didn't want slaves to go around looting the tombs either, not that it did them any good using non-slave labor in the end.

The slaves made the bricks. Ramses was the damm Pharaoh

No - in all probability, employed Egyptians made the bricks. The brick yards are in the worker cities, which have been quite extensively studied in the last few years.

And Ramses was one of the Pharaohs... you seem to be under the impression that Pharaonic Egypt had like... one leader, ever.

I think you've watched too much Stargate.

For Roswell, I'm sticking with: They detected nukes in Japan and said "WTF??"
Ever heard of speed of light?

No - in all probability, employed Egyptians made the bricks. The brick yards are in the worker cities, which have been quite extensively studied in the last few years.

And Ramses was one of the Pharaohs... you seem to be under the impression that Pharaonic Egypt had like... one leader, ever.

I think you've watched too much Stargate.

I hate Stargate! (Just crappy acting)

Ramses was the Exodus Pharoah. Seti chose him over Moses when Moses was discovered to be a decendent of slaves. But please go on with your wild concoctions and tell us how/why most of the slaves ended up at Mt Sinai.

Ever heard of speed of light?

Yes. Why?

Has anyone on this forum SEEN a UFO? I haven't, and the only evidence I've heard is fourth-person anecdotal evidence.

I have. And if it was an alien spaceship it was made by mentally handicapped ants. The fucker was the size of a softball.

I hate Stargate! (Just crappy acting)

Ramses was the Exodus Pharoah. Seti chose him over Moses when Moses was discovered to be a decendent of slaves. But please go on with your wild concoctions and tell us how/why most of the slaves ended up at Mt Sinai.

1) There was no Exodus.

2) The Pharaoh in the era that Exodus claims to be set in wouldn't have been Ramses or Ramses II. However, the route that the Exodites are supposed to have follow runs through the site of Pi-Ramses. A town - not a Pharaoh.

3) Moses didn't exist.

4) The most likely actual event that Exodus refers to, is the driving out of the Hyksos Pharaohs, who conquered half of Egypt, and ruled them for several hundred years until they were overthrown by native Egyptians. Not surprisingly, their avenue of escape took them through the site of Pi-Ramses... and would have ended up with them in or near Canaan.


Apparently it's not just aliens. You'll buy any story.

Yes. Why?

Unless the 'aliens' live a quarter of the way between us and Proxima, in that big empty bit, they wouldn't be able to detect nuclear explosions and get to Earth by 1947. Indeed... they'd have to be able to jump straight to lightspeed to get here that quick, even from that short range.

Unless the 'aliens' live a quarter of the way between us and Proxima, in that big empty bit, they wouldn't be able to detect nuclear explosions and get to Earth by 1947. Indeed... they'd have to be able to jump straight to lightspeed to get here that quick, even from that short range.

You're forgetting the aliens' telepathic abilities. Get it now?

And the temples and the palaces.

So then what? They just said "Screw you guys. I'm going home" and split for Israel? And Ramses gave them their complememtry coffee & cake and sent them merrily on their way?

Er... actually evidence seems to show otherwise. Egyptian monuments, as it seems, were built largely by seasonal conscripts from the egyptian populace, and very little actual evidence for slave labor(Large or small scale) is present. Really, the notion of thousands of slaves being whip-driven by Egyptian overlords is an archaic and outdated notion that is only perpetrated to this day by Hollywood and the likes.

But eh, whatever.

Unless the 'aliens' live a quarter of the way between us and Proxima, in that big empty bit, they wouldn't be able to detect nuclear explosions and get to Earth by 1947. Indeed... they'd have to be able to jump straight to lightspeed to get here that quick, even from that short range.

Maybe because they had other things to do? Maybe because they detected some nukes but not the destruction of Earth. Maybe light speed can't be done in a ship. Maybe just under light speed. Maybe they can only travel space because they have a lifespan of 100s of millions of years.

No - in all probability, employed Egyptians made the bricks. The brick yards are in the worker cities, which have been quite extensively studied in the last few years.

And Ramses was one of the Pharaohs... you seem to be under the impression that Pharaonic Egypt had like... one leader, ever.

I think you've watched too much Stargate.

Let's not tell him that brick making was a highly skilled task, one which would have required years of training in the proper techniques for sculpting the various sized bricks which were each designed specifically for each separate area of the pyramid. One which was of high demand during this period. It's not like you can take a chisel to a hunk of rock and expect to get out a perfect brick. There's a lot more to it than that, I'm afraid.

Er... actually evidence seems to show otherwise. Egyptian monuments, as it seems, were built largely by seasonal conscripts from the egyptian populace, and very little actual evidence for slave labor(Large or small scale) is present. Really, the notion of thousands of slaves being whip-driven by Egyptian overlords is an archaic and outdated notion that is only perpetrated to this day by Hollywood and the likes.

But eh, whatever.

Yea whatever. End of the biblical portion of this debate!

Maybe because they had other things to do? Maybe because they detected some nukes but not the destruction of Earth. Maybe light speed can't be done in a ship. Maybe just under light speed. Maybe they can only travel space because they have a lifespan of 100s of millions of years.

And maybe flaming porcupines are flying out of my ass.

Maybe because they had other things to do? Maybe because they detected some nukes but not the destruction of Earth. Maybe light speed can't be done in a ship. Maybe just under light speed. Maybe they can only travel space because they have a lifespan of 100s of millions of years.

Points for nuttiness, but I like my explanation better. :)

Yea whatever. End of the biblical portion of this debate!

No, it's not biblical at all. It's factual. This has nothing to do with the Bible, in the least. The burials of the workers surrounding the pyramids and other monuments show two interesting qualities:

1.They are actual burials of individuals. No mass-burial has yet been found(to my knowledge) that would indicate slave-status burial. Why in the hell would you bury slaves, which almost by definition would not be worthy of burial at all in the traditional sense? It doesn't make any god-damn sense.

2.They are(To my knowledge) all of ethnic egyptians. Slight characteristic differences occurs in different ethnicities, and yet only ethnic egyptians are found. Which weren't Jewish slaves.

Another important quality is that the damn texts themselves talk about conscripting workers from the egyptian populace. One of the best sources of information is tax records, which pretty much every society with a writing system keeps.

Points for nuttiness, but I like my explanation better. :)

A housefly lives a day. A sea turtle lives 200 years. So we know for a fact that one critter can live at least 73,000 times longer than another. A species that lives 100s of millions of years is not that far fetched.

He didn't follow the instructions.
It says, on the left there, that you're a god *points*
*ahem*

Why in the hell would you bury slaves

The dead stink?

Maybe because they had other things to do? Maybe because they detected some nukes but not the destruction of Earth. Maybe light speed can't be done in a ship. Maybe just under light speed. Maybe they can only travel space because they have a lifespan of 100s of millions of years.

The Earth was destroyed? Since when?

I have it on highest authority that the Vorgon construction crews aren't scheduled for another dozen years.

The dead stink?

:rolleyes:

Of course, you didn't look at what I said before.

I meant individual burial, not burial in general. Generally, when a society has slaves, they don't take the time to bury them individually, or at the very least with great care. You get one of two types of burial:

1. Shallow pit burial, done hastily and without much preparation. Basically digging a hole in the ground and throwing the body in.

2. Mass graves. Dig a big pit, throw a bunch of people in, without much preparation.

However, the burials of the workers are a bit different. Not terribly elaborate, no, but some of them appear to have a pseudo-tomb built around them of junk stone, and are almost always layed into the tomb with some thought and measure taken. Basically, placed in, not thrown in. Which doesn't happen with slaves. Infact, many have been found in wrapping, which would be quite the odd slave burial indeed. Pretty much the only one of its kind.

Maybe just under light speed. Maybe they can only travel space because they have a lifespan of 100s of millions of years.
Then just maybe these slower-than-light speed ships would be visible to us because then they wouldn't need magicpropulsion?

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3w.html#nostealth :tongue:

Then just maybe these slower-than-light speed ships would be visible to us because then they wouldn't need magicpropulsion?

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3w.html#nostealth :tongue:

There you go. Hence several million sightings. ;)

There you go. Hence several million sightings. ;)

Several million sightings with not one authentic photograph that didn't rely on magic handwavium to announce it as an alien spacecraft.

There you go. Hence several million sightings.
Why aren't UFOs commonly accepted if they are constantly visible or detectable?

Consider that a cell phone, yes that few watt transceiver, on moon would be 3rd most powerful radio source in the sky after Sun & Milky Way and the technology we have could in theory detect a cellphone call from Jupiter.

Now compare that few watt emitter to petawatt interstellar engine...

What gives?

Well, except for basic grasp of the magnitudes involved in space travel.

they have just proven with the large hadron collider that it is totally possible to go faster than the speed of light, also called relativistic speed!

Several million sightings with not one authentic photograph that didn't rely on magic handwavium to announce it as an alien spacecraft.

No Photos. Riiiiight. (http://www.ufocasebook.com/documents2008.html)
:rolleyes:

they have just proven with the large hadron collider that it is totally possible to go faster than the speed of light, also called relativistic speed!

It is totally possible for "what" to go the speed of light? A ship? Missile? Or just a tachyon?

they have just proven with the large hadron collider that it is totally possible to go faster than the speed of light, also called relativistic speed!

Why do you need LHC to study Quantum Tunneling (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Faster-than-Light-77277.shtml)? :tongue:

Furthermore it would not take the energy consumption and hence detection off the equation.

No Photos. Riiiiight. (http://www.ufocasebook.com/documents2008.html)
:rolleyes:

Authentic I specified. I looked through a few. Some were painfully close shots of painted nuts and bolts, photoshopped into a night background. A few didn't even match the resolution of the background.

And unsurprisingly, all of them grainy.

So, no photos. Just fakes by people trying to feed their egos.

they have just proven with the large hadron collider that it is totally possible to go faster than the speed of light, also called relativistic speed!

Except the LHC has been out of commission for several weeks now due to a coolant failure. Oops.

they have just proven with the large hadron collider that it is totally possible to go faster than the speed of light, also called relativistic speed!
I really admire the enthusiasm, but they've long since already accomplished that.
:)

I think your the one forgeting we are talking about UFOs. Speculation & testamony are all that's available. If president Clinton wasn't allowed to know the black vault's secret, how are forum folks suppose to know?
:confused:

If speculation and hearsay are all that's available, then you'll have to accept skepticism. Without anything resembling independently-verified evidence, you'll never convince anyone. The argument that the evidence exists, but we just don't have it, is fallacious.

What nobody is taking into consideration here is Tom Jennings, the former mayor of Roswell and a pretty cool guy to boot. He was one of the parties responsible for upselling the 'Roswell incident' to the media in a naked attempt to attract tourist dollars. It worked like a charm, of course. He even brags about his involvement on the Democratic Party of Chaves County website: http://www.democrats-chavescounty.org/Bio%20Jennings.htm

Has anyone here ever been to Roswell? It's such a delightfully tacky little town now. (I know...I live the next county over and visit it all the time.) They have UFO Storage, Alien Ice snow-cones, the annual UFO Festival, the UFO Museum & Research Center, UFO H20 bottled water, alien head-shaped street lights...hell, even the McDonald's in Roswell is built to look like a UFO. Never underestimate the power a few local hucksters in a dusty little cow-town like Roswell, New Mexico can have on American pop culture...

I have. And if it was an alien spaceship it was made by mentally handicapped ants. The fucker was the size of a softball.

I have solved it! Your UFO was a softball. It wasn't there, and then it was, and then everything blacked out, and then you saw stars,and then you came back and everything felt kinda funny, right? Getting whacked on the head will do that ;)

There you go. Hence several million sightings. ;)

Several million?

Interesting number. Care to back it up?

Authentic I specified. I looked through a few. Some were painfully close shots of painted nuts and bolts, photoshopped into a night background. A few didn't even match the resolution of the background.

And unsurprisingly, all of them grainy.

So, no photos. Just fakes by people trying to feed their egos.

No. A shitload of bogus photos to dilute out the real ones. Some are pretty clever.

Authentic I specified. I looked through a few. Some were painfully close shots of painted nuts and bolts, photoshopped into a night background. A few didn't even match the resolution of the background.

And unsurprisingly, all of them grainy.

So, no photos. Just fakes by people trying to feed their egos.

This ^^

If speculation and hearsay are all that's available, then you'll have to accept skepticism. Without anything resembling independently-verified evidence, you'll never convince anyone. The argument that the evidence exists, but we just don't have it, is fallacious.

And, this ^^

No. A shitload of bogus photos to dilute out the real ones. Some are pretty clever.

There are no real ones. If you have an actual real one, why not show it to us hmm? Why do you keep hiding behind that pathetic little defense of "It's out there! I know it is!" and yet actually shying away from showing so?

Perhaps you don't really have anything to go on after all. A far more likely explanation.

No. A shitload of bogus photos to dilute out the real ones. Some are pretty clever.

Come on. If you're just trolling, let's call it a night. We'll both agree it was ever so funy and go on about our business.

I'm finding it hard to believe anyone who actually believed what you claim to believe would use the internet, what with all the obvious CIA control of digital media...

the obvious CIA control of digital media...Just vote for McCain and all that media malfeasance will come to a *screeching* halt.

Just vote for McCain and all that media malfeasance will come to a *screeching* halt.

Ooh, so close, but I'll be denied.

I'm one of those weird people who just don't give a monkeys about the CIA keeping tabs, or whatever is this week's big worry.

The way I figure it, if the CIA, FBI, KGB, MI5... whatever... wants a file on me, the crap I type on the internet is the least of my worries.... :D

There are no real ones. If you have an actual real one, why not show it to us hmm? Why do you keep hiding behind that pathetic little defense of "It's out there! I know it is!" and yet actually shying away from showing so?

Perhaps you don't really have anything to go on after all. A far more likely explanation.

WELL, devil's advocate sort of thing hear, but coming from someone who has seen some pretty crazy shit in his day, it is technically possible that one or two *may* be authentic. However, if they are "authentic", the problem arises in that you probably can't make out if it is or not due to quality. People with cameras tend to suck.

HOWEVER, I will say that most of the "sightings"(and photos) fall under two major categories, that being complete BS, or people with a lack of knowledge misinterpreting what they see. What is left are simply unexplained events, which there is no current(Or obvious, or what-have-you) answer for. Some people like to make the rather large leap from no current answer to ALIENS!, however I prefer not to make a judgment on such unexplained phenomena, holding that although technically possible that some sighting *may* be of Aliens, they are not intrinsically aliens, or even logically for that matter.

So then non-slaves built Egypt? They must have had an awful low minimum wage back then.
:rolleyes:
you're showing your ignorance on yet another subject. fyi, non-slaves did indeed 'build' Egypt. All those peoples dragging huge stone blocks around - very few of them were slaves. They were, for the most part, Egyptian citizens more than willing to do their part to honour, glorify and deify their Pharaoh.
Also, it was a way of keeping them in line and busy during the part of the year where there was no harvesting going on.

Several million?

Interesting number. Care to back it up?

3 million alone in Canada (http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc996.htm)

Ooh, so close, but I'll be denied.You might've mentioned that on a different thread, yes. :p


I'm one of those weird people who just don't give a monkeys about the CIA keeping tabs, or whatever is this week's big worry.

The way I figure it, if the CIA, FBI, KGB, MI5... whatever... wants a file on me, the crap I type on the internet is the least of my worries.... :DIt'd be the pix and the guide books, no doubt. *nods emphatically*

you're showing your ignorance on yet another subject. fyi, non-slaves did indeed 'build' Egypt. All those peoples dragging huge stone blocks around - very few of them were slaves. They were, for the most part, Egyptian citizens more than willing to do their part to honour, glorify and deify their Pharaoh.
Also, it was a way of keeping them in line and busy during the part of the year where there was no harvesting going on.

Eh, I pretty much already said it. He pretty much ignored it. So, there we go.

Hollywood really does distort reality. Reality, I guess, is much more boring(However, I find the reality far more interesting, but eh, that's just me.)

All those peoples dragging huge stone blocks around - very few of them were slaves.

Now THAT'S ignorant!

Now THAT'S ignorant!

Claims the one who professes to never need proof, makes all sorts of unbacked claims, demonstrates an utter lack of understanding of perspective, orbital mechanics, energy requirements for interstellar travel, ancient history and magics away naysaying as a conspiracy.

Now THAT'S ignorant!

No, it's truth. Like I said, there is pretty much no proof whatsoever that slaves built the damned pyramids, but there are mountains that show that conscripted citizens did. Really, there is.

The amount of slaves you would need to conquer would be baffling, to say the least. Not to mention the amount of guards you would need to garrison to stop rebellion, feeding the damn slaves, housing the damn slaves, etc.

Frankly, it would be much, much easier to conscript the citizenry during the non-productive times of the years and have THEM work for free, who would be a lot easier to keep in line because they are your bloody citizens instead of conquered folk.

Basically, they were getting people to work for free. But they were not slaves, in the least.

Come on. If you're just trolling, let's call it a night.

What better way to hide truth than to fabricate eveidence for debunking later. Make a big deal out of it (Like the Alien Autopsy) then use it's debunking to debunk the entire field of research....Oldest trick in the book.

3 million alone in Canada (http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc996.htm)

First - the answer "This translates into nearly 3 million people who say they are UFO witenesses" from a poll of 200 people.

I assume you immediately see why?

Second: a minute ago you were talking about spacecraft, but you're citing stats for UFOs. What's that about?

Claims the one who professes to never need proof, makes all sorts of unbacked claims, demonstrates an utter lack of understanding of perspective, orbital mechanics, energy requirements for interstellar travel and magics away naysaying as a conspiracy.

Can we put in a complete lack of basic historical and archaeological knowledge, as well? I just want to interject this one. Personal note.

First - the answer "This translates into nearly 3 million people who say they are UFO witenesses" from a poll of 200 people.

I assume you immediately see why?

Second: a minute ago you were talking about spacecraft, but you're citing stats for UFOs. What's that about?

Lacking the ability to see the difference between UFOS(unidentified flying objects) and spacecraft?

Can we put in a complete lack of basic historical and archaeological knowledge, as well? I just want to interject this one. Personal note.

Done.

What better way to hide truth than to fabricate eveidence for debunking later. Make a big deal out of it (Like the Alien Autopsy) then use it's debunking to debunk the entire field of research....Oldest trick in the book.

What better way to hide crazy shit than debunk it really obviously, so that only crazy old cat-ladies with whispy beards and bags full of string repeat it.

And random internet nobodies.

Can we put in a complete lack of basic historical and archaeological knowledge, as well? I just want to interject this one. Personal note.

Maybe his people are immune to science?

Now THAT'S ignorant!

http://harvardmagazine.com/2003/07/who-built-the-pyramids.html

Who Built the Pyramids?
Not slaves. Archeaologist Mark Lehner, digging deeper, discovers a city of privileged workers.

"At least several hundred thousand (estimated) UFO sightings have been documented over the last 50 years, and the total number of UFO sightings is estimated to be in the millions"
http://www.ufoevidence.org/sightings/sightingshome.asp

Maybe because they had other things to do? Maybe because they detected some nukes but not the destruction of Earth. Maybe light speed can't be done in a ship. Maybe just under light speed. Maybe they can only travel space because they have a lifespan of 100s of millions of years.
way to go to miss the point entirely.
To accept your premise, a couple of nukes are set off here on Earth. The radiation trail - travelling at the speed of light is released into the cosmos (let's just ignore the scientific explanation as to how this is possible).
An alien civilisation, much further advanced from us, detects said radiation trail thinks, "omg! They have nukes! Let's investigate!" and rushes some UFOs off towards us. These get here in 1947 and proceed to anally probe a few hapless citizens and hack up a few cows beforing buggering off again. Which of course is the first thing anyone would do, having detected intelligent life elsewhere.

Here's the problem: the Nuclear detonations were in 1945, the 'Roswell incident' was 1947. We have just 2 years for the radiation (travelling at lightspeed recall) to reach our alien friends, and them to travel back here.

If their ship can travel at the speed of light (even this is extremely unlikely due to the power needed), this means they're living just 1 lightyear away (less in fact, as it was 23 months between Hiroshima and Roswell). 1 lightyear away from us we're still well within the Oort cloud. Certainly no stars and no planetary systems that close.
Heck even if we assume they have FTL travel and wormholes, able to zip instanteously anywhere in the universe, they'd still <2 light years away from us (which is still within the Oort cloud).
Nearest star is Proxima Centari at 4.2 lightyears away. And that's a dead red dwarf star.

Do you see the problem here?

I see this being a "tastes great, less filling" thing.

No Photos. Riiiiight. (http://www.ufocasebook.com/documents2008.html)
:rolleyes:
Don't know about the rest of you but I find it very hard to accept the truth and validity of a blog that has articles such as "Was President Jimmy Carter abducted by aliens?".

http://harvardmagazine.com/2003/07/who-built-the-pyramids.html

Oh, you and your 'sources', and 'evidence' and 'scientific investigation'. Why do you hate freedom, man? Don't you want to be free of their 'facts' and their 'logic' and their 'being able to back shit up'?

"At least several hundred thousand (estimated) UFO sightings have been documented over the last 50 years, and the total number of UFO sightings is estimated to be in the millions"
http://www.ufoevidence.org/sightings/sightingshome.asp

Still missed it, huh?

Jesus... Seangoli actually told you, even....

"At least several hundred thousand (estimated) UFO sightings have been documented over the last 50 years, and the total number of UFO sightings is estimated to be in the millions"
http://www.ufoevidence.org/sightings/sightingshome.asp

No proper census data I see, and a sharply inflated number based on limited number sampling not even exceeding 1000 people.

Failure to understand basic math is part of your repertoire it seems.

Well, what does NSG think? Troll, puppet or a mere nincompoop?

http://harvardmagazine.com/2003/07/who-built-the-pyramids.html

Graffiti? So you think the Egypitans would have let the slaves draw the graffiti? What that link refering to is the beginnings of propaganda. (someone should have told them)

Eh, I pretty much already said it. He pretty much ignored it. So, there we go.
and said it better and with more validity than I did. That's what one gets from looking through past pages and answering a post w/o bothering to check ahead to see if it's already been addressed.
But this is NS and I'm sure you'll forgive my haste and impudence.
won't you?
pleeeeeezeeeee....

No proper census data I see, and a sharply inflated number based on limited number sampling not even exceeding 1000 people.

Failure to understand basic math is part of your repertoire it seems.

Well, what does NSG think? Troll, puppet or a mere nincompoop?

Is the word "millions" too difficult for you?

and said it better and with more validity than I did. That's what one gets from looking through past pages and answering a post w/o bothering to check ahead to see if it's already been addressed.
But this is NS and I'm sure you'll forgive my haste and impudence.
won't you?
pleeeeeezeeeee....

Hmm... alright... but you owe me a taco. It may be today, it may be tommorrow, it may be never, but one day I may come for my taco.

The validity part come from my archaeological background(Which I am majoring in). :D

Is the word "millions" too difficult for you?

If you can confuse "200 people polled" with "millions", clearly you do not understand what the word 'million' means. Do at least pass grade school before posting here.

Graffiti? So you think the Egypitans would have let the slaves draw the graffiti? What that link refering to is the beginnings of propaganda. (someone should have told them)

No.

But the Egyptian citizens would have. The "Graffiti" is usually *groups* names, by the way. So, really, no propaganda to be discerned of.

*edit: Heh, it's late, said "peoples's" names, not group names, as in groups of workers. Kind of like a work team.

No.

But the Egyptian citizens would have. The "Graffiti" is usually people's names, by the way. So, really, no propaganda to be discerned of.

Sure. Something like "Eddie the Egyptian was here and built this"... And that makes it so? Would you really expect it to say "Slave dog Sam did all the work because were lazy bastards"?

Propaganda.

Graffiti? So you think the Egypitans would have let the slaves draw the graffiti? What that link refering to is the beginnings of propaganda. (someone should have told them)

No. I think that Egyptian workers, fed daily with bread, fish, and beef, might have though. Honestly, did you read the article? It's a hell of a lot more evidence to back up my claim than the absolutely nothing that you've presented.

If you can confuse "200 people polled" with "millions", clearly you do not understand what the word 'million' means. Do at least pass grade school before posting here.

A percentage is a percentage.

Is the word "millions" too difficult for you?
I confess, I've seen an UFO. Not only once but twice.

That is, unidentified flying object.

I assume the first one was a high altitude escaped foil balloon or something similar - A bright dot in daytime sky.

The second one was a bigger mystery...until just yesterday I got confirmation to what I thought it was because very similar event happened again.

The first time could be considered a classic UFO observation:
- A bright light that remains relatively fixed on the sky until it suddenly disappears in very short span of time.

Yesterday I saw similar bright light that remained relatively fixed until it got closer and was revealed to be a small aircraft while vanishing very rapidly after it had flown overhead.

The reason why they looked so damn alien was because of the weather conditions: Damp, dark night with slight fog which scattered the headlight while exaggerating its brightness so that it wasn't instantly recognizable - The light appeared omnidirectional instead of having the spotlight quality of such lamp.

Honestly, did you read the article?

Most of it. I got a laugh out of the drama queen part where Moses & the 10 commandments are just a big Hollywood gimmic.

A percentage is a percentage.

A percentage only works if you have the total number to compare it against. There has not been a total number greater than the number polled at all. Your "millions" are about as real as werewolves and Fairy Tinkerbell having a hoedown at Elvis's space disco in the 1970s while Odin is the disc jockey.

I confess, I've seen an UFO. Not only once but twice.

That is, unidentified flying object.

I assume the first one was a high altitude escaped foil balloon or something similar - A bright dot in the sky.

The second one was a bigger mystery...until just yesterday I got confirmation to what I thought it was because very similar event happened again.

The first time could be considered a classic UFO observation:
- A bright light that remains relatively fixed on the sky until it suddenly disappears in very short span of time.

Yesterday I saw similar bright light that remained relatively fixed until it got closer and was revealed to be a small aircraft while vanishing very rapidly after it had flown overhead.

The reason why they looked so damn alien was because of the weather conditions: Damp, dark night with slight fog which scattered the light while exaggerating its brightness so that it wasn't instantly recognizable.

Obviously it was some sort of UFO. The Air Force and CIA will contact you next Monday. -_-

Sure. Something like "Eddie the Egyptian was here and built this"... And that makes it so? Would you really expect it to say "Slave dog Sam did all the work because were lazy bastards"?

Propaganda.

Considering that the majority of the damn Egyptian populace was illiterate, I highly doubt how effective such propaganda would be.

Actually, now that I think about it, why the hell would you need to put propaganda on something that slaves *supposedly* built(I use this to mean in the minds of those who are Hollywooded up)? There are two major problems with this:

1. Only the slaves would see. What the hell is the point of having propaganda for slaves?

2. Slaves tend to be kept illiterate. It's dangerous(For the slave owners) to have literate slaves.

Really, all propaganda has a point. What is the point of having propaganda that will only be seen by people who are being forced to work, not out of obligation, but instead because they are a conquered people?

You, sir, make no damn sense.

Most of it. I got a laugh out of the drama queen part where Moses & the 10 commandments are just a big Hollywood gimmic.

Then I give up. You're obviously a fool who will only believe what you already believe, and actual research and evidence is weaker in your eyes than uncorroborated hearsay.

I've never seen a UFO. Therefore, they do not exist.

Then I give up. You're obviously a fool who will only believe what you already believe, and actual research and evidence is weaker in your eyes than uncorroborated hearsay.


So what do you think? Troll, puppet or nincompoop?

Most of it. I got a laugh out of the drama queen part where Moses & the 10 commandments are just a big Hollywood gimmic.

They are.

I bet you think 300 portrays Thermopylae accurately, that Braveheart's William Wallace was a commoner, and that there was actually a Conan the Barbarian.

So what do you think? Troll, puppet or nincompoop?

You know, I think maybe a combination of troll and puppet.

However, sadly, I have seen far to many people like this in real life, so nincompoop is still a ready choice.

There are no real ones. If you have an actual real one, why not show it to us hmm?

How the hell do I know which is the real ones? If I did I'd post it. I just look at what the evidence is and think. Something you seem to have major difficulty with since you want solid proof as if we were discussing who was on Letterman last night!

So what do you think? Troll, puppet or nincompoop?

What I think would garner me a warning.

Hmm... alright... but you owe me a taco. It may be today, it may be tommorrow, it may be never, but one day I may come for my taco.
Done, my good sir (or shd that be lady? I've no idea who's who on the interwebs). A taco shall you have, with extra chilli and cheese.

goddamn. Now I WANT a taco.

Done, my good sir (or shd that be lady? I've no idea who's who on the interwebs). A taco shall you have, with extra chilli and cheese.

goddamn. Now I WANT a taco.

Sir, my good sir, sir. Most assuredly, or at least I think...

Considering that the majority of the damn Egyptian populace was illiterate, I highly doubt how effective such propaganda would be.

Actually, now that I think about it, why the hell would you need to put propaganda on something that slaves *supposedly* built(I use this to mean in the minds of those who are Hollywooded up)? There are two major problems with this:

1. Only the slaves would see. What the hell is the point of having propaganda for slaves?

2. Slaves tend to be kept illiterate. It's dangerous(For the slave owners) to have literate slaves.

Really, all propaganda has a point. What is the point of having propaganda that will only be seen by people who are being forced to work, not out of obligation, but instead because they are a conquered people?

You, sir, make no damn sense.
The construction was designed to last 1000s of years. And it actually did.

Obviously it was some sort of UFO. The Air Force and CIA will contact you next Monday. -_-
Well, it was fun while it lasted.

~ contacts the ETs for a ride to Deneb III or IV ~

How the hell do I know which is the real ones? If I did I'd post it. I just look at what the lack of evidence is and believe. Something you seem to have major difficulty with since you want solid proof as if we were discussing who was on Letterman last night!

Corrected for factual accuracy.

So you don't even know which one is real, which means you aren't positive if ANY of them are real.

Thereby, there are no real ones. Solid proof is a good step towards proving anything, and you don't have anything.

I can round up a dozen people easy who would swear that you're a complete dolt with an IQ in the single digit range. In your reasoning, that would make it true.

I have seen far to many people like this in real lifeIn my experience, when properly provoked, every single person i've met can adequately express themselves as having some kind of delusional bias of some sort, even if they don't think of it in those terms.
This forum does a good job to foster that opinion of mine ... however delusional i might be about it.

In my experience, when properly provoked, every single person i've met can adequately express themselves as having some kind of delusional bias of some sort, even if they don't think of it in those terms.
This forum does a good job to foster that opinion of mine ... however delusional i might be about it.

I think that you might be right that every person has some sort of delusional belief, but I also believe that, when properly confronted with contrary evidence, most of those people are intelligent enough to release their delusional belief in light of said evidence. Most every child believes in Santa Claus at one point or another, but very few adults maintain that belief in light of the evidence of his fictionality.

I think that you might be right that every person has some sort of delusional belief, but I also believe that, when properly confronted with contrary evidence, most of those people are intelligent enough to release their delusional belief in light of said evidence.
You would be wrong.

I think everyone's perception of reality has distinctive subjective bias.

There was a thread here not long ago about conservatives believing even more to their view of the world when confronted with concrete evidence otherwise.

The construction was designed to last 1000s of years. And it actually did.

Your point? That the Phaoroh's perpetuated propaganda that would last for hundreds of generations after their death? They were dead, buried, and deified on death. I don't see how they would think that putting "Steve made this" on a rock would somehow make people like them any more or less, considering that most of those people would live 1000 or 2000 years later would have never even heard of them.

Or, for that matter, that the majority of the populace was still, *gasp*, illiterate, making it pointless to have propaganda which had to be, *gasp*, read.

You would be wrong.

I think everyone's perception of reality has distinctive subjective bias.

There was a thread here not long ago about conservatives believing even more to their view of the world when confronted with concrete evidence otherwise.

I appreciate the irony of you telling me I'm wrong in my subjective bias about subjective bias.

I appreciate the irony of you telling me I'm wrong in my subjective bias about subjective bias.

Tis worth a good chuckle, though.

So you don't even know which one is real, which means you aren't positive if ANY of them are real.

Thereby, there are no real ones. Solid proof is a good step towards proving anything, and you don't have anything.

Yes. I have said that several times. THERE IS NO SOLID PROOF. Incredible that you still expect it.

My theories are quite sound. Can you prove that at any of the mass sightings, all those people pre-planed a scam?

I appreciate the irony of you telling me I'm wrong in my subjective bias about subjective bias.
You're welcome :tongue:

Yes. I have said that several times. THERE IS NO SOLID PROOF. Incredible that you still expect it.

My theories are quite sound. Can you prove that at any of the mass sightings, all those people pre-planed a scam?

Can you prove the mass sightings are of extraterrestrial and/or paranormal origin?

My theories are quite sound. Can you prove that at any of the mass sightings, all those people pre-planed a scam?

Hypothesis, to be more correct, and even that is a stretch.

Theories are tested, and repeatable, with tangible evidence supporting them, that have been peer reviewed, and not debunked.

You sir, have the all to common problem of being unable to discern the two.

A theory is not a conjecture, and what you have are conjectures.

Yes. I have said that several times. THERE IS NO SOLID PROOF. Incredible that you still expect it.

My theories are quite sound. Can you prove that at any of the mass sightings, all those people pre-planed a scam?

YOU have the burden of proof. We can't prove something you yourself have no proof of.

You continue to postulate the government has something to hide by blanking out these records. What is it? Have you looked at these records yourself? Do you know, for an undeniable fact, that they are covering up UFOs?

I would have gone with "wild speculation".

I appreciate the irony of you telling me I'm wrong in my subjective bias about subjective bias.Beautiful things come of this thread, indeed. :)

Your point?

Designed to make the name of Phaorah live in infamy. Designed to look like Egyptians did the work. Which would easily explain why no slave artifacts. Wouldn't you think after Moses took his slaves, Phaorah would have had all traces of slaves erased from Egypt? Some tents, clay houses & pottery? How hard could that be?

Hypothesis, to be more correct, and even that is a stretch.

Theories are tested, and repeatable, with tangible evidence supporting them, that have been peer reviewed, and not debunked.

You sir, have the all to common problem of being unable to discern the two.

A theory is not a conjecture, and what you have are conjectures.

Well that was a wiggle worthy of a reptile. Who cares? Tomato tafuckinmahto! Jesus tapdancing Christ!

YOU have the burden of proof. We can't prove something you yourself have no proof of.

You continue to postulate the government has something to hide by blanking out these records. What is it? Have you looked at these records yourself? Do you know, for an undeniable fact, that they are covering up UFOs?

:rolleyes:

Designed to make the name of Phaorah live in infamy. Designed to look like Egyptians did the work. Which would easily explain why no slave artifacts. Wouldn't you think after Moses took his slaves, Phaorah would have had all traces of slaves erased from Egypt?

Because doing a massive conspiracy clean-up and falsification is so much more likely than the theory that Egyptians themselves built the pyramids, which all the archaelogical finds prove.

Tell me - have you ever heard of the term Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ockham_razor)?

Yes. I have said that several times. THERE IS NO SOLID PROOF. Incredible that you still expect it.

And there is no solid proof, only unreliable witnesses. But you keep treating it as proof, so I'm going to call you on that.

I expect proof, because you keep claiming assertions as fact. Until you stop doing that, demands of proof will remain.

Or assertions that you are a bare faced liar. Take your pick.


My theories are quite sound. Can you prove that at any of the mass sightings, all those people pre-planed a scam?

Your hypothesis, at best. A theory is one that has been tested for repeatability in a lab condition. Yours has not, and thereby, is not a theory. Calling it a hypothesis is a stretch even. It is far more in common with tales of fish that got away commonly told when beer is present among sporting fishers.

I don't have to prove that all of these people pre-planned a scam. All I have to do, is show that what they saw, wasn't an alien spacecraft. I could dress up in a bear suit and scare a few yokels, but they won't have seen a Yeti.

So far, there hasn't been one sighting that produced any evidence that could not be confronted logically, investigated, and produce conclusions of natural or man made phenomena.

Even those that do not as of yet have an explanation do not have any evidence that would suggest any form of alien spacecraft, and only by the mental leap of the intellectually deficient dreamer, could that conclusion be arrived at.

And of course, I note you keep ignoring that niggling little detail where urban myths and legends tend to color recollections of witnesses when they face something they can't immediately explain. I wonder why. Could it be that you're afraid to confront the truth of it? Afraid to confront the fact that aside from your odd delusions, you really are a very small and insignificant speck in the vast darkness of space, and must conjure up alien visitations so as to comfort your psyche?

Yes. I have said that several times. THERE IS NO SOLID PROOF. Incredible that you still expect it.

My theories are quite sound. Can you prove that at any of the mass sightings, all those people pre-planed a scam?
Can you prove the mass sightings are of extraterrestrial and/or paranormal origin?
Scratch that, can you give a single piece of evidence suggesting that such events are not and could not have been of terrestrial origin?

Designed to make the name of Phaorah live in infamy. Designed to look like Egyptians did the work. Which would easily explain why no slave artifacts. Wouldn't you think after Moses took his slaves, Phaorah would have had all traces of slaves erased from Egypt? Some tents, clay houses & pottery? How hard could that be?

Incredibly hard, actually. Foundations would still exist, for instances. Plus, the cost of getting rid of all those structures would be immense. Not to mention the fact that they would have to be replaced by structures that were not for slave housing, but instead more of a living spacing, the size of which would have been a small city at the time. Really, it all seems far more trouble than its worth.

And yet, there is one more important question:

Why the hell would the Pharoahs do it? What could possibly be gained? If there was a mass exodus of slaves from Egypt(Which there is no evidence whatsoever), what could be gained by covering it up?

The answer, not surprisingly, is nothing.

:rolleyes:

Exactly. You have no proof for your postulations, and you seem to want to deflect our attention elsewhere.

Your postulations make little sense. Your theories make little sense. You've said it yourself - there's no evidence. There's no smoking gun. How can you make a solid argument when you have nothing to back it on but speculation?

Well that was a wiggle worthy of a reptile. Who cares? Tomato tafuckinmahto! Jesus tapdancing Christ!

There is a huge difference, and you using theory for your little pipe dream is a slap in the face of science, for instance.

Incredibly hard, actually. Foundations would still exist, for instances. Plus, the cost of getting rid of all those structures would be immense. Not to mention the fact that they would have to be replaced by structures that were not for slave housing, but instead more of a living spacing, the size of which would have been a small city at the time. Really, it all seems far more trouble than its worth.

Or still burried in the sand like the Sphinx was for all that time.

And yet, there is one more important question:

Why the hell would the Pharoahs do it? What could possibly be gained? If there was a mass exodus of slaves from Egypt(Which there is no evidence whatsoever), what could be gained by covering it up?
Anger.

Well that was a wiggle worthy of a reptile. Who cares? Tomato tafuckinmahto! Jesus tapdancing Christ!

People interested in the truth and facts.

But clearly people interested in delusions don't.

Or still burried in the sand like the Sphinx was for all that time.

Then go dig them up. Prove the archaeological world wrong. But you won't. You're too afraid to confront the evidence that would shatter your delusions. That's why you keep running away from the facts, why you keep ignoring the arguments that would show your baseless assertions for what they really are.

Exactly. You have no proof for your postulations

Then why do you keep asking for it? That's the whole point about the UFO thing. If the evidence were solid, we wouldn't even be talking about it.

Tell me - have you ever heard of the term Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ockham_razor)?

Isn't that what were trying to do here? Work our way to the truth?

Then why do you keep asking for it? That's the whole point about the UFO thing. If the evidence were solid, we wouldn't even be talking about it.

Then don't postulate that falsified records, or otherwise, mean nothing other than that alien spacecraft or extra-terrestrial objects exist. You're floundering in the face of science, and it is folly.

If you're willing to back off of your strong assertions to the contrapositive of the government's position and just willing to talk about UFOs, that's fine. But don't try to make an argument without proof. It's not an argument then, just a statement of hypothesis or opinion.

Then don't postulate that falsified records, or otherwise, mean nothing other than that alien spacecraft or extra-terrestrial objects exist. You're floundering in the face of science, and it is folly.
How do you know that the records are falsified or true?

And I have flown in the face of bogus science for years. (all the junk science that claimed global warming is a hoax)

don't try to make an argument without proof. It's not an argument then, just a statement of hypothesis or opinion.

You finally get it. My hypothesis against others. Better late than never.

How do you know that the records are falsified or true?

I don't. It's YOUR job of proving that these records have been deleted or falsified or blacked out or whatever to cover up UFO discovery. You made the argument, not I.

You finally get it. My hypothesis against others. Better late than never.

We're making arguments based on observation to counter your arguments based on hypothesis and hearsay. You say we have no proof to our position, yet we are making arguments to our positive based on concrete, terrestrial evidence. On the other hand, you have been making points to our negation based on hypothesis, belief, and assumptions.

It's hard for the pot to call the kettle black when it's not even a kettle.

And I have flown in the face of bogus science for years. (all the junk science that claimed global warming is a hoax)

And we're finally out with it!

I'll just tip my cap and be on my way.

I don't. It's YOUR job of proving that these records have been deleted or falsified or blacked out or whatever to cover up UFO discovery. You made the argument, not I.



We're making arguments based on observation to counter your arguments based on hypothesis and hearsay. You say we have no proof to our position, yet we are making arguments to our positive based on concrete, terrestrial evidence. On the other hand, you have been making points to our negation based on hypothesis, belief, and assumptions.

It's hard for the pot to call the kettle black when it's not even a kettle.

And you were making progress.

Ok let me just whip out my secret black vault key and zip over to Langley. I'm sure they will think my explination is valid because I want to prove a point on a thread. Think they will buy lunch too?

And we're finally out with it!

I'll just tip my cap and be on my way.

Then too be continued and have a good-un!

Ok let me just whip out my secret black vault key and zip over to Langley. I'm sure they will think my explination is valid because I want to prove a point on a thread. Think they will buy lunch too?

You do that. Until then, you're just another conspiracy theorist who can't even come up with a coherent argument.

Isn't that what were trying to do here? Work our way to the truth?
Well, WE certainly were. Not sure what you were doing.

You do that. Until then, you're just another conspiracy theorist who can't even come up with a coherent argument.

Just the simple: "It's ignorant to think we are the only ones in the galaxy and even more ignorant to think that just because we can only put a man on the moon, that's all any other galactic species can do" Is quite a valid enough arguement.

From there it's incredibly ignorant to think that solid proof from the government would be so easily shared with the public.

But I guess it's all good. Someone has to be dumb enough to have full faith in the US government I suppose.

I have solved it! Your UFO was a softball. It wasn't there, and then it was, and then everything blacked out, and then you saw stars,and then you came back and everything felt kinda funny, right? Getting whacked on the head will do that ;)

Personally, I'm guessing that I horrifically misjudged how far up it was and it was actually a weather balloon. My second idea is that I didn't see the weather balloon, and this was an instrument hanging down on a string or a wire or something. It would explain why it disappeared in the twenty or so seconds it took for me to find someone to show it to, since it could have been automatically reeled up. Weather balloons certainly had a reason to be around there, back at that time there was a bunch of research going on about local pollution levels.

Dusk, with enough light to see the definite shape of the object, it was a clear dusk too. Times were noted via digital clock, mentally noted however as I don't remember exact times but around 7ish, we watched it for maybe 3 to 4 minutes.

background noise: engine of the vehicle at first, than we shut it off and the only remaining noise was a gentle breeze and distant cars

the trees weren't too far maybe a thousand feet but they were on a hill beyond the over-pass... Probably five people high.

Important: during the few minutes we watched we viewed it from a vertical angle of about 10 degrees to 90 degrees to 150 degrees than we drove off. (the vehicle being in the centered point of the protractor between 180 and 0 of course. The object was viewed from a 90 degree angle because it was off to our right a bit.)

Ladies and gentlemen, the prosecution rests.

As is usual, our kind sir has demonstrated that he cannot accurately judge sizes and distances. Trees are a good deal taller than this, in general*. This puts out his ranges and angle calculations quite drastically, and leaves us concluding, as usual, that humans really aren't particularly good at estimation.

Incidentally, a high fast flying craft of some sort would very neatly fit the movement profile he described.

*Sauces, you say? Sure: Normally not a very tall tree, typically 65-85 feet (19.5-25.5 m) tall at maturity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_oak), Pines are evergreen and resinous trees (rarely shrubs) growing to 3–80 m tall, with the majority of species reaching between 15-45 m tall. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_tree), for just two examples. Both show that short trees grow at least twice as tall as our fine friend guessed.

Then why do you keep asking for it? That's the whole point about the UFO thing. If the evidence were solid, we wouldn't even be talking about it.

I call Poe*. This level of stupidity simply cannot be serious.

*Not strictly applicable, but appropriate.

Done, my good sir (or shd that be lady? I've no idea who's who on the interwebs). A taco shall you have, with extra chilli and cheese.

goddamn. Now I WANT a taco.

Ah, the universal currency of NSG.

Damn. I want a taco too. :(

As is usual, our kind sir has demonstrated that he cannot accurately judge sizes and distances. Trees are a good deal taller than this, in general*. This puts out his ranges and angle calculations quite drastically, and leaves us concluding, as usual, that humans really aren't particularly good at estimation.
.

Or just people with depth perception problems.

Yes. I have said that several times. THERE IS NO SOLID PROOF. Incredible that you still expect it.

My theories are quite sound. Can you prove that at any of the mass sightings, all those people pre-planed a scam?

Why would it have to be a scam?

A crowd of thousands can be confused, just like a single person can be confused - in fact, it's EASIER to confuse masses.

If one person sees a weatherballoon, they look at it and think 'hmmm'. then they decide maybe it's a weatherballoon and go on about their business.

IF one person in a crowd sees a weatherballoon, and the person next to them says 'what the hell is that', the first responses willprobably determine what the bulk of the crowd remembers seeing. And thus, a weatherballoon becomes a UFO seen by 300 people.

Why would it have to be a scam?

A crowd of thousands can be confused, just like a single person can be confused - in fact, it's EASIER to confuse masses.

If one person sees a weatherballoon, they look at it and think 'hmmm'. then they decide maybe it's a weatherballoon and go on about their business.

IF one person in a crowd sees a weatherballoon, and the person next to them says 'what the hell is that', the first responses willprobably determine what the bulk of the crowd remembers seeing. And thus, a weatherballoon becomes a UFO seen by 300 people.

But then what about the sightings of HUGH objects by several people?

Designed to make the name of Phaorah live in infamy. Designed to look like Egyptians did the work. Which would easily explain why no slave artifacts. Wouldn't you think after Moses took his slaves, Phaorah would have had all traces of slaves erased from Egypt? Some tents, clay houses & pottery? How hard could that be?

Have you ANY idea about Egyptian history, at all?

First - if you'd paid any attention to the article, you'd have seen that the grafitti being discussed isn't Pharaonic names, but names that we would today call 'middle class' - they were artisan names, and the nicknames for their crews - much like our modern military sometimes does.

Second - if you had any clue about what archeological evidence has dug up (pun intended) over the last few hundred years, you'd know that the strong preponderance of evidence supports artisans leading crews of labourers on extended contracts... again, much like our military. You might also know that, during the reign of Ramses, for example, foreigners in Egypt actually held moderately high ranks. In later Egypt, foreigners even ascended to the rank of Pharaoh.

Third - there is evidence of slave-keeping in Egypt. Your wild speculation that it would be hidden doesn't materialise...

Fourth - again, if you knew ANYTHING about the subject, you'd know that Egyptians were meticulous record keepers, to an extent that even makes the Roman Empire look kind of lax. Roman records might record the fact that x number of soldiers and such-and-such dignitary attended some event - Egyptian records record how many amphorae of wine were delivered. That's the way Egyptians kept records.

Fifth - Pharaohs DID have their names emblazoned in stone to last the centuries. The graffitti you are talking about... is not that material. If you understood the significance of the written word in Ancient Egypt, you wouldn't keep making the claims you make. Pharaoh didn't WANT his name where just anyone could defile it... or even worse, destroy it.

Sixth - there was no Moses. The nearest match recorded was a minor prince that lead the armies in genocides in Kush (modern day Ethiopia), something like 400 years BEFORE the bible records. Even the IDEA that there was a Moses is frankly laughable to an actual student of history - the idea that the Egyptian Royal family would name a son with a meaningless name (Moses - or M'ses, in Egyptian - would literally just mean 'born'), is just silly.

Seventh - there is archeological evidence, from about the right time, that matches the descriptions of the way Hebrews were supposed to live, according to the Hebrew scripture. They built no graven images (which is a stand-out detail in Egypt), and were of Semitic origins... but theyw eren't slaves, they were aggressors who over-ran half of Egypt, until they were finally kicked out in a native uprising.


Seriously - it's breathtaking how ignorant you are on this subject. Not just that you don't know what you claim you know - but that you KEEP trying to make arguments, BASED on what you don't know.

Anger.

Not a good enough answer. The Egyptians recorded when they lost wars in foreign nations. They recorded when they were conquered. They recorded just about everything... even if they didn't like it.

But then what about the sightings of HUGH objects by several people?

What about them?

I've stood alongside a crowd of people on a rocky outcropping in Colorado, and watched people talk about the weird cloud formation hovering just near the horizon.

What they were looking at, was the Rockies, through a heat haze... which made it LOOK like there was a fairsized 'gap' between the horizon and the mountains.

Most people are pretty clueless. In ones and twos... and in mobs.

But then what about the sightings of HUGH objects by several people?

I believe thats referred to as "dogging" (http://edition.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/HughGrant/)

Ladies and gentlemen, the prosecution rests.

As is usual, our kind sir has demonstrated that he cannot accurately judge sizes and distances. Trees are a good deal taller than this, in general*. This puts out his ranges and angle calculations quite drastically, and leaves us concluding, as usual, that humans really aren't particularly good at estimation.

Incidentally, a high fast flying craft of some sort would very neatly fit the movement profile he described.

*Sauces, you say? Sure: Normally not a very tall tree, typically 65-85 feet (19.5-25.5 m) tall at maturity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_oak), Pines are evergreen and resinous trees (rarely shrubs) growing to 3–80 m tall, with the majority of species reaching between 15-45 m tall. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_tree), for just two examples. Both show that short trees grow at least twice as tall as our fine friend guessed.



I call Poe*. This level of stupidity simply cannot be serious.

*Not strictly applicable, but appropriate.

The trees aren't the important part... This object was either immensely slow (running speed or; if what you think is true, that it was a high flying craft (even though it was practically level with the horizon when I first saw it) than it would, in order to hit those degrees, have to have been flying at speeds not even Project Aurora could attain. Either way it would be unidentified.

What about them?

I've stood alongside a crowd of people on a rocky outcropping in Colorado, and watched people talk about the weird cloud formation hovering just near the horizon.

What they were looking at, was the Rockies, through a heat haze... which made it LOOK like there was a fairsized 'gap' between the horizon and the mountains.

Most people are pretty clueless. In ones and twos... and in mobs.

Ooooooohhhhh. People are too stupid to tell the difference between solid matter (a ship) and a gasious form (a cloud) Gotcha!
:rolleyes:

The trees aren't the important part... This object was either immensely slow (running speed or; if what you think is true, that it was a high flying craft (even though it was practically level with the horizon when I first saw it) than it would, in order to hit those degrees, have to have been flying at speeds not even Project Aurora could attain. Either way it would be unidentified.

The trees are important. They provide a way to calibrate the accuracy of your guesses, based on how your guess compares to reality. It has been shown to be inaccurate.

Anyway, you present a false dichtomy with regard to speed. It could be at practically any range, and thus have practically any speed. As has been pointed out already, a typical missile or supersonic jet can quite easily cross from horizon to horizon in a few seconds, and you claim several minutes of duration. To also have incredible speed apply there you're assuming it must be spaceborne, which is rather unlikely.

The most logical suggestion from the evidence you've given seems to be an airliner. It was flying farther away than you guessed, thus leading to a lack of sound, and can quite nicely cross the sky in the times you've quoted. This is, however, merely a suggestion, and I (for obvious reasons) cannot prove it.

Please demonstrate, however, why it is something else, specifically something of extra-terrestrial or similar origin.

they have just proven with the large hadron collider that it is totally possible to go faster than the speed of light, also called relativistic speed!

rules of physics were made to be broken.

rules of physics were made to be broken.

Never mind that the quoted post was completely wrong.

The trees are important. They provide a way to calibrate the accuracy of your guesses, based on how your guess compares to reality. It has been shown to be inaccurate.

Anyway, you present a false dichtomy with regard to speed. It could be at practically any range, and thus have practically any speed. As has been pointed out already, a typical missile or supersonic jet can quite easily cross from horizon to horizon in a few seconds, and you claim several minutes of duration. To also have incredible speed apply there you're assuming it must be spaceborne, which is rather unlikely.

The most logical suggestion from the evidence you've given seems to be an airliner. It was flying farther away than you guessed, thus leading to a lack of sound, and can quite nicely cross the sky in the times you've quoted. This is, however, merely a suggestion, and I (for obvious reasons) cannot prove it.

Please demonstrate, however, why it is something else, specifically something of extra-terrestrial or similar origin.

well... I guess you just would have to have been there... Anyway this is pretty damn close to what I saw: http://www.ufoevidence.org/photographs/section/post2000/Photo419.htm except that the lights were red, blue, and green (no blinking), it was slightly more rounded on the edges and was either 3-times closer or three times bigger. Anyway, I can positively ID this as not being an airliner or missile. Btw, I live in Michigan which has very clear autumn evenings, and the only significant mirages are the whole, "water road" illusions that occur on hot summer days. I was not near any wetlands.

well... I guess you just would have to have been there... Anyway this is pretty damn close to what I saw: http://www.ufoevidence.org/photographs/section/post2000/Photo419.htm except that the lights were red, blue, and green (no blinking), it was slightly more rounded on the edges and was either 3-times closer or three times bigger. Anyway, I can positively ID this as not being an airliner or missile. Btw, I live in Michigan which has very clear autumn evenings, and the only significant mirages are the whole, "water road" illusions that occur on hot summer days. I was not near any wetlands.

That photo is almost certainly an airliner, blown up beyond all recognition, and not that well photographed. Note the shape is slighly curved, suggesting wings. Alternately it could be something more exotic, and fortunately there are a large number of military craft with the right sort of shape.

Which colour light was on the leading corner of the triangle?

And maybe I have UFOs flying out of my ass. This argument is just as credible.
a lifespan of millions of years would be possible to an entity who transcended the 3rd dimension and or lived in the 4th (time). Some how i do think that is at least a little more credible than UFOs flying out your ass :eek:

Ooooooohhhhh. People are too stupid to tell the difference between solid matter (a ship) and a gasious form (a cloud) Gotcha!
:rolleyes:

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/2527/marylenticular2fg7.jpg

That photo is almost certainly an airliner, blown up beyond all recognition, and not that well photographed. Note the shape is slighly curved, suggesting wings. Alternately it could be something more exotic, and fortunately there are a large number of military craft with the right sort of shape.

Which colour light was on the leading corner of the triangle?

that's the funny part... it wasn't flying with a leading corner, but a leading edge...

a lifespan of millions of years would be possible to an entity who transcended the 3rd dimension and or lived in the 4th (time). Some how i do think that is at least a little more credible than UFOs flying out your ass :eek:

We all live in the 4th dimension. Your statement is utterly meaningless and devoid of any knowledge about the fundamentals of our universe.

that's the funny part... it wasn't flying with a leading corner, but a leading edge...

Simply explained, from how actual motion in 3 dimensions ends up appearing to an observer at a single point. Seeing jets appear to fly sideways or at an angle is quite normal.

Which colour was on the 'trailing' corner then?

Ooooooohhhhh. People are too stupid to tell the difference between solid matter (a ship) and a gasious form (a cloud) Gotcha!
:rolleyes:

Did you not read the post?

Are you saying those people I was stood near are stupid?

If people can't tell the difference between MOUNTAINS (big, large, rock things - you must have heard of them) and clouds, why WOULD they be able to tell the difference between a cloud and a ship?

We all live in the 4th dimension. Your statement is utterly meaningless and devoid of any knowledge about the fundamentals of our universe.
nope we live in three http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_dimension

"3-dimensional space that we live in"

nope we live in three http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_dimension

"3-dimensional space that we live in"

So you deny that humans progress through time?

The most common and generally accepted description of the universe we live in has it as four dimensional, with three spatial dimensions and one time dimension.

Various forms of GUTs modify this, putting it anywhere from 4 to several thousand, but none of these are proven.

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/2527/marylenticular2fg7.jpg

Oh very clever Mr Bond. :) So if people ever loose the natural instinct to look at something like that for a few seconds, turn away and not ever look back, (to see it dissipate) we'll be having UFO sightings ahead of every cold front.
Brilliant!!!

Oh very clever Mr Bond. :) So if people ever loose the natural instinct to look at something like that for a few seconds, turn away and not ever look back, (to see it dissipate) we'll be having UFO sightings ahead of every cold front.
Brilliant!!!

Why? Consider a photo of a similar cloud formation, but less well taken. You'd get a blurry, vaguely diskish shape, that would have basically hovered in place. Sounds like your typical description of a UFO to me.

Oh very clever Mr Bond. :) So if people ever loose the natural instinct to look at something like that for a few seconds, turn away and not ever look back, (to see it dissipate) we'll be having UFO sightings ahead of every cold front.
Brilliant!!!

I'm surprised to see you say this, given that 'ignoring the natural instinct to look' accounts for nine-tenths of everything you've posted so far.

Simply explained, from how actual motion in 3 dimensions ends up appearing to an observer at a single point. Seeing jets appear to fly sideways or at an angle is quite normal.

Which colour was on the 'trailing' corner then?
blue. It wasn't at that big of an angle at one point it was nearly straight overhead.

Which files?

I already explained - UFO investigation, as and when it happens, would be an AIR FORCE job, not a CIA job. If it were above the atmosphere that the material was being investigated, you MIGHT have the justification for a NASA operation, but ultimately it would STILL come down to USAF.

You keep asking why the CIA doesn't release files... that YOU think they have. Maybe they don't release them because the CIA doesn't have any UFO data, USAF does.

perhaps these are what he's referring to? http://www.archives.gov/foia/ufos.html

Did you not read the post?

Are you saying those people I was stood near are stupid?

If people can't tell the difference between MOUNTAINS (big, large, rock things - you must have heard of them) and clouds, why WOULD they be able to tell the difference between a cloud and a ship?

When it's windy, clouds move faster. people have seen this. Mountians don't move at all. People have noticed this. Space ship movement connot be cofused with something natural.

Anyway what you obviously were refering to were tourists in an unfamiliar location. So one thing you can look for to support your side of the story is find out how many UFO sightings there are from vacationers. I can't seem to recall any. Always locals. And locals know their own surroundings.

So you deny that humans progress through time?

The most common and generally accepted description of the universe we live in has it as four dimensional, with three spatial dimensions and one time dimension.

Various forms of GUTs modify this, putting it anywhere from 4 to several thousand, but none of these are proven.

we are affected by the fourth but cannot manipulate it as we can our own, or to a greater degree the second dimension (eg: a flat surface like a peice of paper).

perhaps these are what he's referring to? http://www.archives.gov/foia/ufos.html

Yea that's part of it. I can't seem to find old links of all those files Clinton held up to the camera that showed black magic marker on almost every page.
God Damm Patriot Act!

blue. It wasn't at that big of an angle at one point it was nearly straight overhead.

And for the follow on:


/o| a
/ |
blue o | ---> apparent direction of flight
\ |
\o| b


When viewed from below, what colours were a and b, repectively? (a is the right hand side, and b the left hand side)

Apologies for the ASCII art, but a better medium is beyond my reach.

Why? Consider a photo of a similar cloud formation, but less well taken. You'd get a blurry, vaguely diskish shape, that would have basically hovered in place. Sounds like your typical description of a UFO to me.

Your forgetting the grande finale. It either flies away or it dosn't.

perhaps these are what he's referring to? http://www.archives.gov/foia/ufos.html

So, the secret documents that the CIA are not letting us see...

...are the USAF documents that are available to view in the National Archive?



WTF?

So, the secret documents that the CIA are not letting us see...

...are the USAF documents that are available to view in the National Archive?



WTF?

Then it goes on to say this:


The National Archives has been unable to locate any documentation among the Project BLUE BOOK records which discuss the 1947 incident in Roswell, New Mexico.
On September 8, 1994, the Secretary of the Air Force, Sheila E. Widnall, announced that the United States Air Force had completed its study to locate records that relate to the alleged 1947 UFO incident near Roswell, New Mexico. Pro-UFO researchers claim that an extraterrestrial spacecraft and its alien occupants were recovered near Roswell in July of 1947, and that this fact was kept from the public.



WTF??!!

When it's windy, clouds move faster.


And when it's not, they don't.


...people have seen this. Mountians don't move at all. People have noticed this.


Hence, why people can confuse mountains with stationary clouds...


Space ship movement connot be cofused with something natural.


Bullshit.

How many spaceships have you seen?

How many of the millions of possible national phenomena have you seen?

You, my friend, are talking out of your arse.


Anyway what you obviously were refering to were tourists in an unfamiliar location. So one thing you can look for to support your side of the story is find out how many UFO sightings there are from vacationers.


You're missing the fundamental point.

'My side' has nothing to prove. The skeptic doesn't have to validate skepticism, all he/she has to do is doubt.

And, since 'your side' has no real evidence, after 60 years of looking, doubt is not only the default position... but also the only rational one.


I can't seem to recall any. Always locals. And locals know their own surroundings.

I'm not local to Colorado.

And for the follow on:


/o| a
/ |
blue o | ---> apparent direction of flight
\ |
\o| b


When viewed from below, what colours were a and b, repectively? (a is the right hand side, and b the left hand side)

Apologies for the ASCII art, but a better medium is beyond my reach.

ok I'll put this in first person... the object was to the right, and looking up the closest color was red and farthest green. another perspective (I have a spatial memory) if viewed from directly above; b. would be red, and a. would be green.

Then it goes on to say this:


WTF??!!

Of course Project Blue Book has no records on Roswell. It happened five fucking years before the project started.

Then it goes on to say this:

WTF??!!

And what?

So, we're not actually talking about the CIA at all... or supression of huge volumes of information.

What we're talking about is that - maybe - an incident in 1947 that has had several reports OF IT'S OWN, hasn't (yet?) been located in millions of feet of microfilm?

Its a real alien crash!
its a conspiracy!
the goverment is trying to keep us from knowing the truth!!!

Of course Project Blue Book has no records on Roswell. It happened five fucking years before the project started.

Oh, you and your facts and your logic....

There was this great book I read on the whole UFO/government thing awhile back but I can't remember the author or the title. He pretty much eviscerated the entire thing.

So, the secret documents that the CIA are not letting us see...

...are the USAF documents that are available to view in the National Archive?



WTF?

Nah... This has got to be it http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc813.htm

http://www.theblackvault.com/wiki/index.php/Majestic_12


if not, than maybe these http://www.cufos.org/UFO_Documents_internet.html


this is closer to the roswell time-period. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Sign

ok I'll put this in first person... the object was to the right, and looking up the closest color was red and farthest green. another perspective (I have a spatial memory) if viewed from directly above; b. would be red, and a. would be green.

Good.

The light pattern is broadly consistent with an airplane. Hence that is my conclusion.

Edit: Dialled back the statement a bit. The lights described match their expected locations on an airplane, but there are still other minor differences. However, someone with more aviation knowledge should be able to clear these up.

Nah... This has got to be it http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc813.htm

http://www.theblackvault.com/wiki/index.php/Majestic_12


if not, than maybe these http://www.cufos.org/UFO_Documents_internet.html


this is closer to the roswell time-period. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Sign

Nice work.

Nah... This has got to be it http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc813.htm

http://www.theblackvault.com/wiki/index.php/Majestic_12

if not, than maybe these http://www.cufos.org/UFO_Documents_internet.html

this is closer to the roswell time-period. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Sign

I saw nothing about a black vault, except for the name of one of the sites... I saw almost nothing about the CIA, and what there was was a broken link. Almost nothing about the FBI. A mention of a group that formed and then split up, a group which allegedly existed, but everything related to it has either been proved to be a hoax, or has strong probability of being a hoax (e.g. evidence like anachronistic details).

What I'm mainly seeing, is what we would expect to see - USAF is the main body doing the research, the data is pretty much all easily available, and there's nothing that's a smoking gun.

If this is the stuff that's getting Dragon's panties in a bunch, I'm just not that easily excited over nothing.

Good.

The light pattern is broadly consistent with an airplane. Hence that is my conclusion.

Edit: Dialled back the statement a bit. The lights described match their expected locations on an airplane, but there are still other minor differences. However, someone with more aviation knowledge should be able to clear these up.

my aunt's boyfriend is a pilot... It's illegal to fly with the aforementioned pattern of lights, they are on the wrong "wing-tips". The green light must be on the right side and the red on the left.

my aunt's boyfriend is a pilot... It's illegal to fly with the aforementioned pattern of lights, they are on the wrong "wing-tips". The green light must be on the right side and the red on the left.

Several immediate thoughts:

1) The aircraft wasn't moving in the direction you thought it was, and just appeared to be because of clouds moving behind it or something...

You suggested you saw it move actually from one side of you to the other, though.. .so maybe not.

2) An aircraft flying upside down (for whatever reason) would have it's lights effectively reversed

3) one of the simplest solutions... you remember the lights wrong, and the red and green were actually the other way around.

4) My chosen explanation, because it requires LEAST complications - it relies ONLY on angles of vision - from your angle (you said you were off to one side) you simply couldn't see a fourth light - and what you were actually seeing was a red beacon light, rather than the actual red wing light. That would throw off the whole geography of the vessel.

What you might, then, be seeing is a roughly triangular formed by a collision-avoidance beacon (red), the green wing light, and the white light on the opposite wingtip. Looks like a triangle, would appear to be flying somewhere between sideways or backwards.

Or - alternatively, you could be seeing a white collision avoidance beacon as being green because of optical effects (the collision avoidance beacons strobe - it would probably look different to the white wing lights), the red guidance light, and the white wingtip light on the other wing - again, the vessel would appear to be moving either sideways, or just off of backwads.

my aunt's boyfriend is a pilot... It's illegal to fly with the aforementioned pattern of lights, they are on the wrong "wing-tips". The green light must be on the right side and the red on the left.
your aunt's boyfriend huh?
Sure it wasn't the cousin of a mate of a man you met in the pub?

I know! It was the Soviets and the US Military working together in collaboration with an alien race bent on colonizing the Earth by spreading an alien virus that would turn every single human being into aliens that would then exist as a slave race for the evil Colonists!

OR, alternately, it was Chris Carter, come from the future to start a conspiracy theory that he would one day make millions of dollars from. Whatever.

Just the simple: "It's ignorant to think we are the only ones in the galaxy and even more ignorant to think that just because we can only put a man on the moon, that's all any other galactic species can do" Is quite a valid enough arguement.

It's even more ignorant, and egoistic, to think that an intergalactic starfaring race would want anything to do with the evolutionary equivalent of amoeba beyond stepping on them, and their planet, if it happens to be in their way.

Or for that matter, that their puny sensors and primitive optical organs would be able to detect them.

But someone has to salve their ego with wild claims I suppose.

Ooooooohhhhh. People are too stupid to tell the difference between solid matter (a ship) and a gasious form (a cloud) Gotcha!
:rolleyes:

Yes, people ARE that stupid. You crazy conspiracy theorists have people pointing out Australia as Iran, believing all sorts of idiot claims with not one smidgen of proof (Yeti/Elvis sightings) or even logic to it (YEC), and yet you keep insisting that the things you see must be gospel truth.

And I notice you're still pretending that 200 people polled equals millions of people, whom you don't have proof even exist.

Always locals. And locals know their own surroundings.

This is a lie, no more, no less. It's rarely true when you apply it to weather observations.

It's even more ignorant, and egoistic, to think that an intergalactic starfaring race would want anything to do with the evolutionary equivalent of amoeba beyond stepping on them, and their planet, if it happens to be in their way.

Why would we be in their way? Why would anyone leave their own solar system if not to seek out other life? If there is as much life out there as I think there is - a lot- we would probably be one of the more boring planets but it would be crazy not to think they wouldn't check us out.

Why would we be in their way?

Intergalactic space highway.


Why would anyone leave their own solar system if not to seek out other life?

Columbus didn't look to the new world to seek other life. He went for resource riches. Try thinking that through a bit.

There's no benefit in seeking other life, and there's thousands of young, lifeless worlds, with a lot of resources to mine, or if you're advanced enough, you can do stellar mining.

Deliberately finding other life would be a waste of time.

This is a lie, no more, no less. It's rarely true when you apply it to weather observations.

You go to work. Walk the dog. Check the mail. Sit on the porch. Day after day. Year after year. Seiing 1000s of jets, trains, cars, birds, fireflies, balloons, raccoons & hooters. You develop a familiarity with your surroundings. Then when you say "wtf is that??!!" and then never see it again. You get an inclanation that something out of the ordinary had happened.

Columbus didn't look to the new world to seek other life. He went for resource riches. Try thinking that through a bit.

Columbus was a fuckin idiot that thought he had landed in India. He is history's Inspector Clouseau.

There's no benefit in seeking other life, and there's thousands of young, lifeless worlds, with a lot of resources to mine, or if you're advanced enough, you can do stellar mining.

Deliberately finding other life would be a waste of time.

Oh sure. Intelligent life would prefer stagnation.
:rolleyes:

Oh sure. Intelligent life would prefer stagnation.
:rolleyes:
It wasn't an idiot who said "May you live in interesting times".

You go to work. Walk the dog. Check the mail. Sit on the porch. Day after day. Year after year. Seiing 1000s of jets, trains, cars, birds, fireflies, balloons, raccoons & hooters. You develop a familiarity with your surroundings. Then when you say "wtf is that??!!" and then never see it again. You get an inclanation that something out of the ordinary had happened.

If you never pay attention to the weather beyond when it's going to rain, you'll never find out about the various cloud types that do show up regularly. Few people do this. Fewer still bother to observe it long enough to see all the cloud formations and behaviors. The only people who do are meteorologists, trained and paid to do that.

No surprise that ignorant yokels attribute supernatural causes. Or maybe next you'll be telling me all those people who see Jesus and Elvis wondering around Vegas really did see them.

Columbus was a fuckin idiot that thought he had landed in India. He is history's Inspector Clouseau.

So? What does that have to do with his motivations? Columbus wanted a new land for resource exploitation. He found one. The natives were just an unexpected nuisance. Any intergalactic species will find dead or young worlds without life much more attractive for exploitation.


Oh sure. Intelligent life would prefer stagnation.
:rolleyes:

Intelligent life would avoid Earth like the plague. Or just slap an FTL or even just an oversized ion drive and guidance package on a decent sized asteroid and send it to Earth. Better to sterilize the world now and save themselves a headache if the paranoid lunatic monkeys (including the crazy conspiracy types) ever get into the galactic stage.

your aunt's boyfriend huh?
Sure it wasn't the cousin of a mate of a man you met in the pub?

Your point? I just talked to the guy like two hours ago...

Several immediate thoughts:

1) The aircraft wasn't moving in the direction you thought it was, and just appeared to be because of clouds moving behind it or something...

You suggested you saw it move actually from one side of you to the other, though.. .so maybe not.

2) An aircraft flying upside down (for whatever reason) would have it's lights effectively reversed

3) one of the simplest solutions... you remember the lights wrong, and the red and green were actually the other way around.

4) My chosen explanation, because it requires LEAST complications - it relies ONLY on angles of vision - from your angle (you said you were off to one side) you simply couldn't see a fourth light - and what you were actually seeing was a red beacon light, rather than the actual red wing light. That would throw off the whole geography of the vessel.

What you might, then, be seeing is a roughly triangular formed by a collision-avoidance beacon (red), the green wing light, and the white light on the opposite wingtip. Looks like a triangle, would appear to be flying somewhere between sideways or backwards.

Or - alternatively, you could be seeing a white collision avoidance beacon as being green because of optical effects (the collision avoidance beacons strobe - it would probably look different to the white wing lights), the red guidance light, and the white wingtip light on the other wing - again, the vessel would appear to be moving either sideways, or just off of backwads.

...this is beginning to get complex...

1) doesn't hold much weight... It seems you doubted it even as you wrote it, besides it was a clear night...

2) I suppose this would be somewhat possible, although I've never heard of an aircraft flying a completely straight trajectory upside-down for so long, at a fairly obviously low altitude without crashing... But in any case, who would be doing aeronautic stunts at 7:00 pm in a field in the middle of nowhere?

3) I have mnemonic reason for remembering the arrangement of the lights.
At first I saw only the red and blue lights clearly, because of the angle, and couldn't distinguish the blue from the green, but as The craft passed over head I got a better look at them and was able to distinguish them. Because of the difficulty of distinguishing, I made a mental note of them. I also sketched it out in color that same night...

4) not necessarily... At one point I was pretty close to directly beneath it, and to view it from my angle in a way that would make it seem to be moving backwards, it would have to have been in a turn, because I viewed from many points of view as it meandered it's way by. Same goes for the red beacon replacing the red wing light. There was no strobe light either...

I find that in order of simplicity and probability it was either:

An experimental aircraft built by a (probably) local person in secret (most-likely remote-controlled for size, safety, and practicality reasons.)

A secret government aircraft

Some sort of trans-dimensional craft

A genuine ET

An extremely erratic flying conventional aircraft that defied gravity by flying slant-winged at a low speed

A just plain trans-dimensional anomaly (these actually seem a lot harder to explain than the others...)

you'll probably find this list fairly agreeable.

Your point? I just talked to the guy like two hours ago...
of course you did.
Wait? your aunt's b/f or the cousin of the mate of the man you met in the pub?

Don't suppose it matters. Either/both of them are outstanding authorities on aviation as far as we know. So we'll accept their authority on this matter.

If you never pay attention to the weather beyond when it's going to rain, you'll never find out about the various cloud types that do show up regularly. Few people do this. Fewer still bother to observe it long enough to see all the cloud formations and behaviors. The only people who do are meteorologists, trained and paid to do that.

No surprise that ignorant yokels attribute supernatural causes. Or maybe next you'll be telling me all those people who see Jesus and Elvis wondering around Vegas really did see them.



So? What does that have to do with his motivations? Columbus wanted a new land for resource exploitation. He found one. The natives were just an unexpected nuisance. Any intergalactic species will find dead or young worlds without life much more attractive for exploitation.



Intelligent life would avoid Earth like the plague. Or just slap an FTL or even just an oversized ion drive and guidance package on a decent sized asteroid and send it to Earth. Better to sterilize the world now and save themselves a headache if the paranoid lunatic monkeys (including the crazy conspiracy types) ever get into the galactic stage.

hmm... Keep in mind, that ET visitors don't necessarily have to think like we do in any way shape or form... Who's to say the would find us a nuisance or try to conquer us... All we can do is postulate.

hmm... Keep in mind, that ET visitors don't necessarily have to think like we do in any way shape or form... Who's to say the would find us a nuisance or try to conquer us... All we can do is postulate.

Basic universal rule of thumb for any species, no matter what planet you evolved on. Resources are limited. Life isn't fair. You compete for resources, or you die out.

Anything that breaches this rule either evolved as the sole life form on its planet, thus having no evolutionary pressure to gain sapience, and evolve beyond amoeba like states, or it breaks the 2nd law of thermodynamics and can magic raw materials out of thin air, thus never needing to leave their biosphere.

It's generally those with more belief than brains who try to throw out physical law to accommodate their wild fantasies.

Appears Wilgrove's got a pretty hot thread, even though the topic's come up a few times.
:)

Basic universal rule of thumb for any species, no matter what planet you evolved on. Resources are limited. Life isn't fair. You compete for resources, or you die out.

Anything that breaches this rule either evolved as the sole life form on its planet, thus having no evolutionary pressure to gain sapience, and evolve beyond amoeba like states, or it breaks the 2nd law of thermodynamics and can magic raw materials out of thin air, thus never needing to leave their biosphere.

It's generally those with more belief than brains who try to throw out physical law to accommodate their wild fantasies.

I'm just saying that we only know how life works on our planet... ET visitors could even be mobile plants for all we know... All we currently have to compare them to is us. And it seems selfish for us to assume that us is everything. Remember that Einstein valued imagination above all else, we shouldn't neglect to indulge it simply because our current understanding tells us it's impossible.

I'm just saying that we only know how life works on our planet... ET visitors could even be mobile plants for all we know...

It doesn't matter if they can build their own worlds. They must have started from somewhere. Arguing that they just popped into existence like that is no different than arguing the existence of an omnipotent god who just popped into being just like that.

Everything starts from something. You can't escape that.

If you never pay attention to the weather beyond when it's going to rain, you'll never find out about the various cloud types that do show up regularly. Few people do this. Fewer still bother to observe it long enough to see all the cloud formations and behaviors. The only people who do are meteorologists, trained and paid to do that.
Not anymore. Not since the climate shift.


No surprise that ignorant yokels attribute supernatural causes. Or maybe next you'll be telling me all those people who see Jesus and Elvis wondering around Vegas really did see them.
A typical reptile wiggle statement.


Intelligent life would avoid Earth like the plague. Or just slap an FTL or even just an oversized ion drive and guidance package on a decent sized asteroid and send it to Earth. Better to sterilize the world now and save themselves a headache if the paranoid lunatic monkeys (including the crazy conspiracy types) ever get into the galactic stage.

AMG! Big scary Earth. Oooooooo! They sent out that Voyager ship that says "hello!" The horror! The horror!
:rolleyes:

Not anymore. Not since the climate shift.

More lies from a conspiracy nut. How unsurprising I'd say. Your utter lack of knowledge of the world around you is only compounded by your desperation to elevate yourself to some imagined level of importance by claiming fantastical experiences.


A typical reptile wiggle statement.


Typical evasion. Unsurprisingly slimy.


AMG! Big scary Earth. Oooooooo! They sent out that Voyager ship that says "hello!" The horror! The horror!
:rolleyes:

If for the annoyance factor from the likes of you alone, it would be reason enough. I've squashed ants for less, and do you really think humanity would be more than that in the face of an intergalactic spacefaring race?

Stop elevating yourself.

A typical reptile wiggle statement.


It's a reasonable point.

Your argument RELIES on the fact that people make good and reliable witnesses, who give good evidence, and don't make mistakes or make shit up.

Pointing out that, in a nation with an ultra high level of ufo viewings, you ALSO have an unusually high level of people seeing Elvis, the Virgin Mary, etc... and an unusually high level of hoaxing... not unreasonable.

If your whole argument NEEDS people to provide good testimony, and the evidence suggests that they don't... your ONLY source of evidence is holed below water.

More lies from a conspiracy nut. How unsurprising I'd say. Your utter lack of knowledge of the world around you is only compounded by your desperation to elevate yourself to some imagined level of importance by claiming fantastical experiences.



Typical evasion. Unsurprisingly slimy.



If for the annoyance factor from the likes of you alone, it would be reason enough. I've squashed ants for less, and do you really think humanity would be more than that in the face of an intergalactic spacefaring race?

Stop elevating yourself.

So people never look at the clouds. A space faring race would use their superior engineering skills to build ships for zooming around to kick over ant hills and someone thinks they saw Elvis so UFOs can't be real.

That bumps me up from 98% sure about UFOs to 99. Thank you for your support.

So people never look at the clouds.

Certainly not enough to get a good idea of what they can be shaped like and how they behave. I suppose that because you walk everyday, you are fully aware of each and every muscle, ligament, nerve fiber and fat tissue in your legs?


A space faring race would use their superior engineering skills to build ships for zooming around


Space faring does imply that they have some sort of craft designed for traveling in space, yes.


to kick over ant hills

Pests are pests. Either you ignore them or you destroy them.


and someone thinks they saw Elvis so UFOs can't be real.


Because Elvis sightings are just as credible as UFO sightings. So, does the King live, or is he really dead? Answer the question.


That bumps me up from 98% sure about UFOs to 99. Thank you for your support.

... your real name is John McCain aren't you? Even Karl Rove wouldn't be this stupid.

Certainly not enough to get a good idea of what they can be shaped like and how they behave. I suppose that because you walk everyday, you are fully aware of each and every muscle, ligament, nerve fiber and fat tissue in your legs?



Space faring does imply that they have some sort of craft designed for traveling in space, yes.



Pests are pests. Either you ignore them or you destroy them.



Because Elvis sightings are just as credible as UFO sightings. So, does the King live, or is he really dead? Answer the question.



... your real name is John McCain aren't you? Even Karl Rove wouldn't be this stupid.

You cant even understand climate change and I'm stupid? Yes Elvis is dead. We put a man on the moon. And Richard Petty dosn't race anymore. How long have you been living under a rock?

Hey I'll bet a new ant hill formed 2 states over from you. Better hop in the war wagon & go kick it over.

You cant even understand climate change and I'm stupid?

In this instance, you're not stupid. Just dishonest. You claimed that people looked at clouds everyday, patently false, and somehow gained a understanding of all that they could do, how they shaped and behaved, as opposed to meteorologists who actually studied the matter in depth and actually have decades of scientific research to back it up.

In summary, you're arguing like a creationist. Patently false claims, ignorance of fact, appeals to emotion, changing goalposts arguments of non-evidence as evidence. It's all there.


Yes Elvis is dead. We put a man on the moon. And Richard Petty dosn't race anymore.

And yet you keep insisting on alien spacecraft without anymore evidence than Elvis sightings. Why is your claim special hmmm?


Hey I'll bet a new ant hill formed 2 states over from you. Better hop in the war wagon & go kick it over.

Actually, I'd rather just kick you in the head. It would be far more therapeutic for me, and might actually force you to use your brains for once.

Appears Wilgrove's got a pretty hot thread, even though the topic's come up a few times.
:)

I know, I'm amazed. I guess we needed a break from the politics, abortion, religion, world event threads. :)

In this instance, you're not stupid. Just dishonest. You claimed that people looked at clouds everyday, patently false, and somehow gained a understanding of all that they could do, how they shaped and behaved, as opposed to meteorologists who actually studied the matter in depth and actually have decades of scientific research to back it up.

So only a meteorologists are the only ones qualified to determine what a UFO is? People are not as dumb as you. They know the difference between man made ships and something else.

In summary, you're arguing like a creationist. Patently false claims, ignorance of fact, appeals to emotion, changing goalposts arguments of non-evidence as evidence. It's all there.
And still pwning your rediculious claims.

And yet you keep insisting on alien spacecraft without anymore evidence than Elvis sightings. Why is your claim special hmmm?

In most part the math. The sheer number of stars in our galaxy. If one in a million had life and among those one in a million had inteligent life, there's no way some don't take to the stars and occasionly swing by.

Actually, I'd rather just kick you in the head. It would be far more therapeutic for me, and might actually force you to use your brains for once.
I sometimes have the effect of bringing out the complete idiot in a person but make no apoligies for it. I've payed attention over the decades and have little sympathy for those that chose not to.

Actually, I'd rather just kick you in the head. It would be far more therapeutic for me, and might actually force you to use your brains for once.
Wouldn't work. His brain's ain't in his head. Best flip upside down first then do the hoofing.

also, best to put him on ignore before you say something which could get you banned. He's just an immature mindless troll looking to wind people up.

So only a meteorologists are the only ones qualified to determine what a UFO is?

Only a meteorologist or someone who has put in equal time and knowledge investments would know weather patterns and the types of clouds and behaviors are present, which I said, not the lies you concocted.

But since you admitted to being a taker of crack cocaine and a peddler of child pornography, I suppose lying is the only thing you can do.

See how that works?


People are not as dumb as you.


If people were as "dumb" as me, maybe we wouldn't have so many silly people making up claims about aliens just to feed their petty little egos.


They know the difference between man made ships and something else.


Yes. That's why they believe pictures of nuts and bolts and other photoshopped bits are actually alien spacecraft. Oh wait. Maybe they don't know after all.


And still pwning your rediculious claims.


Only in your magic little dreamland McCain.


In most part the math. The sheer number of stars in our galaxy. If one in a million had life and among those one in a million had inteligent life, there's no way some don't take to the stars and occasionly swing by.


Math doesn't support this under any circumstance.


I sometimes have the effect of bringing out the complete idiot in a person but make no apoligies for it. I've payed attention over the decades and have little sympathy for those that chose not to.

Prayer now? I take it back. You're not John McCain. You're Sarah Palin.

Wouldn't work. His brain's ain't in his head. Best flip upside down first then do the hoofing.

also, best to put him on ignore before you say something which could get you banned. He's just an immature mindless troll looking to wind people up.

I suppose I could. Shall we kill the thread here and now then?

Only a meteorologist or someone who has put in equal time and knowledge investments would know weather patterns and the types of clouds and behaviors are present, which I said, not the lies you concocted.
I wonder how people in war that opperate s.a.m. sights can tell the difference from an attacking jet and a cloud? Your just..... brain dead NAS.

Math doesn't support this under any circumstance.

Oh that would be so convienent for you. Wouldn't it?

Or maybe not ZPH.

I wonder how people in war that opperate s.a.m. sights can tell the difference from an attacking jet and a cloud?

With radar usually, something your average UFO conspiracy nut doesn't have, not when they can make up excrement.


Oh that would be so convienent for you. Wouldn't it?

Reality is like that. Especially when you never produce anything tangible to back up your lies. Oh but wait, they're lies, so you don't have anything at all.

This is your argument in a nutshell: Lies, lies, insults, lies, delusions, and more lies.

So only a meteorologists are the only ones qualified to determine what a UFO is? People are not as dumb as you. They know the difference between man made ships and something else.
No. Only a meteorologist would know for sure that what s/he is seeing is a cloud. A layperson might easily fool themselves into thinking it's something other than a strange cloud formation. Especially if they're that way inclined towards wanting to believe.
If you can't understand that distinction I suggest you refrain from questioning other people's reasoning abilities.

In most part the math. The sheer number of stars in our galaxy. If one in a million had life and among those one in a million had inteligent life, there's no way some don't take to the stars and occasionally swing by.
You do the maths. I've already pointed this out much earlier in this thread but I'll do so again as you apparently missed it 1st time round.
According to the Drake equation and the Rare Earth Hypothesis, there's maybe 10,000 planets in the Milky Way capable of supporting Intelligent Life.
10,000 you say? That's still plenty!

A few points:
10,000 in a galaxy the size of the Milky Way is nothing. We've got 125,000,000,000 stars out there. Even if - and this is a huge IF - each and every one of those planets hosts star-faring civilisations, they're surrounded by 12,500,000 stars without intelligent life. And let's face it the chances of that is low. Let's be generous and say 1,000 of them have spacecraft tech and that they only go for star systems they think are capable of supporting life. Well that's still around 40,000,000,000 stars to investigate (estimate for within the Galactic habitable zone) - 4,000,000,000 for each civ. Knock 1/2 off as being unsuitable and that's 2,000,000,000 to investigate.
We need to assume:
1000 civilisations with star-travel techology
FTL travel
Each civilisation equipped with several million spacecraft
Just to raise the possibility of them visiting us a little above zero. And once they get here, they don't bother announcing themselves, just stick a few probes up a few butts, kill a few cows, circle a few crops then bugger off again.
All that sounds plausible and probable to you?


Not that this matters because:
Earth has been around for 4.5 Billion years, life for 4 Billion, humans for 200,000 and ability to detect and contact life outside this planet for just the last 50.
Do the maths: We've only been on this planet for 0.004% of it's history, 0.005% of the history of life on Earth and for just 0.025% of length of our own history have we had the ability to look for life outside this planet.

If there is 10,000 planets in the Milky Way which support intelligent life, how many are at our level of development? How many are still in Babylonian times or Roman times, Medeval times, Victorian times or even pre-WWII times?
(and no I'm not saying they would follow our development identically I mean in terms of their own level of development compared to where we were at those times)
We've only just come to the level of being able to contact & detect life outside Earth. For the 200,000 years previous we emitted and scanned nothing. For just the last 50 years - 0.025% of our time on Earth - have we been able to look to the stars.
Using this as a guide (and it's the only one we have!) this means just (0.025% of 10,000) 2.5 (~3) planets are in the Milky Way with technology equal or greater than ours.
3 planets. We're one of them. That leaves us with 2. TWO civilisations our equals (or betters) in a galaxy with 125,000,000,000 stars.
What do you think are the odds of us ever meeting?

Point 3:
It's only been in the past 100 years, max, that we've been sending radio transmissions out into space. Before that, any alien astronomer looking through their telescope at us would have seen a blue ball. Interesting but that's about it. Nothing about us worth the trip. Bearing in mind that the power and speed needed to make that trip is enormous. There would have to be an extremely good reason why they'd want to come all the way over to us (we are hundreds of light years away from the next possibly habitabe star system). Until 100 years ago, they would have had no way of knowing we were even here. And even now, still wouldn't. Our radio transmissions would not have reached them. Only chance is that they can see the changes being made to our atmosphere and have concluded said changes are too fast to be natural.
Even then, this would mean they've only just become aware of us and are heading our way now. Unless they have FTL or wormhole tech, they're still on the way.



I sometimes have the effect of bringing out the complete idiot in a person but make no apoligies for it.
I can make many guesses as to why you're so adept at bringing out the 'complete idiot' in people you aquaint with.
Most revolve around the 'like attracts like' theory of interpersonal relationship.
Actually all of them do.

Or maybe not ZPH.



With radar usually, something your average UFO conspiracy nut doesn't have, not when they can make up excrement.



Reality is like that. Especially when you never produce anything tangible to back up your lies. Oh but wait, they're lies, so you don't have anything at all.

This is your argument in a nutshell: Lies, lies, insults, lies, delusions, and more lies.

You click on a radar and your dead, 7 ways from Sunday.

Your arguement is the one in a million chance of a cloud looking like a UFO and no one would wait to see if it will fly away. A trick of the light from a rare angle. The 200-400 billion stars of the Milky Way are either barron of life or has life that possess no sense of exploration & pioneering.

EDIT: This seems to apply to your last post as well Zombie

You click on a radar and your dead, 7 ways from Sunday.


Then you have no idea how IAD systems work, and frankly, if you were a SAM operator, likely one of your colleagues would have shot you for gross incompetency and endangerment of the entire unit.


Your arguement is the one in a million chance of a cloud looking like a UFO and no one would wait to see if it will fly away.

Why would a cloud have to fly away? Clouds distort with the wind.

And with the imagination inherent in humans, it's very easy for them to make the leap.

And even if it is a one in a million chance, it's far more likely than the one in a trillion chance of there being not only alien intelligence, but advanced enough to be intergalactic spacefarers, find this dustball, and only mutilate cattle and leave crop circles.


The 200-400 billion stars of the Milky Way are either barron of life or has life that possess no sense of exploration & pioneering.

Neither of these arguments were made by ZPH nor me. Only by you as strawmen so you could feel better about knocking them down. Very pathetic.

Then you have no idea how IAD systems work, and frankly, if you were a SAM operator, likely one of your colleagues would have shot you for gross incompetency and endangerment of the entire unit.
Funny you seem to remember way back when soldiers were shot but don't remember the US picking up an enemy radar and destroying it asap.

Why would a cloud have to fly away? Clouds distort with the wind.

Correct-a-mundo! When it disipates, the would be UFO observer says "oh it's just a cloud" When it flys away at 1000 times faster than the other clouds or how fast the wind is blowing, It's not a cloud at all. Is it? Then someone says "wtf is that?" and you have a bonafied UFO sighting.


And even if it is a one in a million chance, it's far more likely than the one in a trillion chance of there being not only alien intelligence, but advanced enough to be intergalactic spacefarers, find this dustball, and only mutilate cattle and leave crop circles.
That's all we know about so far. As you and others have pointed out, there is no solid proof. If they are real, then they are some pretty elusive bastards. Aren't they? But you can't design a galactic spaceship without a bit of cleverness.


Neither of these arguments were made by ZPH nor me. Only by you as strawmen so you could feel better about knocking them down. Very pathetic.

Not Jack or shit has been made by you and a few others. But you are amusing.

Funny you seem to remember way back when soldiers were shot but don't remember the US picking up an enemy radar and destroying it asap.

HARM munitions are the primarily designed to take down IADS radars, which is why they usually have strings of radar sites operating all in conjunction. Leaving them offline makes them worthless. You'd still be shot by your colleagues for being a know nothing blowhard who is going to get them all killed.


Correct-a-mundo! When it disipates, the would be UFO observer says "oh it's just a cloud" When it flys away at 1000 times faster than the other clouds or how fast the wind is blowing, It's not a cloud at all. Is it? Then someone says "wtf is that?" and you have a bonafied UFO sighting.

Except they don't even have to see it fly away. They turn for a second, can't find the pattern, and oh look, it's "gone". Guess it must have "flown away" huh?

And again, a UFO does not mean an alien spacecraft either. We've explained how it could be a wide variety of man made and natural phenomena, we've explained to you differences in viewing angles and how they can change perceptions, but you keep insisting on aliens, despite the utter lack of proof, which you keep insisting is proof.

Which means you must be the one behind the latest string of serial killings then, nevermind the lack of actual proof.


That's all we know about so far. As you and others have pointed out, there is no solid proof. If they are real, then they are some pretty elusive bastards. Aren't they? But you can't design a galactic spaceship without a bit of cleverness.

You can't design an intergalactic spaceship that can't be detected either. There's no such thing as stealth in space. Even the basic maneuvering thrusters on the space shuttle can be detected from millions of kilometers away. Any kind of propulsion system capable of intergalactic travel will leave a trail visible for thousands of light years.


Not Jack or shit has been made by you and a few others. But you are amusing.

Have you considered a career in politics? Between your blatant lies and goalpost shifting, you might actually have a shot. At least until you open your mouth.

Have you considered a career in politics? Between your blatant lies and goalpost shifting, you might actually have a shot. At least until you open your mouth.

Your just..... brain dead NAS.


Wouldn't work. His brain's ain't in his head. Best flip upside down first then do the hoofing.

The above quotes are just a selection from a wide choice of silliness.

Yellow cards for each of you, to remind you to argue the post, not the poster. The personal remarks are unnecessary, whatever you think of the other's arguments. Cut it out.

I'm leaving the thread open for the benefit of others who want to actually discuss the topic, but it will be closed if this level of sniping persists.

HARM munitions are the primarily designed to take down IADS radars, which is why they usually have strings of radar sites operating all in conjunction. Leaving them offline makes them worthless. You'd still be shot by your colleagues.

Was HARM around in Viet Nam? How did the N Vietnamese distinguish the jets from clouds? If they had done that, there would have been no need for missions. They would exaust their missile supply in a big firework show.

Except they don't even have to see it fly away. They turn for a second, can't find the pattern, and oh look, it's "gone". Guess it must have "flown away" huh?

A second later and it's gone and this raises no red flags? Are you the only person on Earth that if saw a UFO you would grab an umbrella & rain gear?

And again, a UFO does not mean an alien spacecraft either. We've explained how it could be a wide variety of man made and natural phenomena, we've explained to you differences in viewing angles and how they can change perceptions, but you keep insisting on aliens, despite the utter lack of proof, which you keep insisting is proof.

And your insisting that these explinations should apply for ALL sightings. Again with the math. What are the odds? ASTRINOMICAL!!!

Which means you must be the one behind the latest string of serial killings then, nevermind the lack of actual proof.
If a bunch of murdered people were discovered there would be information out there. People would work to construct a hypothesis. When they get a general idea of a suspect they make inquiries. You are tring to make the wrong sized glove fit with clouds, angles and virtuial impossibilities.



You can't design an intergalactic spaceship that can't be detected either. There's no such thing as stealth in space. Even the basic maneuvering thrusters on the space shuttle can be detected from millions of kilometers away. Any kind of propulsion system capable of intergalactic travel will leave a trail visible for thousands of light years.
With thrusters, I buy that. Most UFO sighting have folks that claim no sound. So thrusters must be ancient history to them.

Have you considered a career in politics? Between your blatant lies and goalpost shifting, you might actually have a shot. At least until you open your mouth.

Funny you'd say that since you remind me of Tricky Dickie Nixon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_UFO_incident

July 7th, 1947 a UFO crashed in Roswell New Mexico. On this day, a rancher went out to the field, and found a debries field, went and told the local sheriff office, who contacted the local Army Air Field. The debries were recovered and at first the original story was that it was a recovered Alien craft. However, the story was retracted and the "offical" story was that it was a balloon from a secret Army project regarding balloons and radar.

So, what says you of NSG? Was the crash at Roswell a real alien craft, or was it a weather balloon? Personally the material that was collected sounded like it came from a weather balloon. However, at the same time, I'd have to wonder why the US Army would use balloons for radar purpose against the USSR when they could use aircrafts? According to Wikipedia, Project Mogul was a project by the Army Air Force where they use high alt. weather balloons to detect when the USSR set off a nuclear bomb.

So what say you of NSG, was Roswell an alien craft crashing, or was it a high alt. weather balloon or something different?

Balloons, not really need fuel, can remain aloft longer and are possibly cheaper?

Dragontide, I'm assuming, from the time on your post, that it came before you saw mine. Because I really, really wouldn't like it if you refused to listen to my gentle advice.

You wouldn't like it, either.

Dragontide, I'm assuming, from the time on your post, that it came before you saw mine. Because I really, really wouldn't like it if you refused to listen to my gentle advice.

You wouldn't like it, either.

Ahh srry.

Done. No more useless insults.

Was HARM around in Viet Nam? How did the N Vietnamese distinguish the jets from clouds? If they had done that, there would have been no need for missions. They would exaust their missile supply in a big firework show.

Except the North Vietnamese didn't have that many Russian provided SAMs, and that first generation seekers tended not to be very effective when chaff and flares were deployed. As to how they distinguished them? Why, by radar, thermal seekers and visual recognition of flight profiles of their targets. A basic lesson for all air defense crewmen would be in learning to distinguish between your aircraft and the enemies.


A second later and it's gone and this raises no red flags? Are you the only person on Earth that if saw a UFO you would grab an umbrella & rain gear?


A second later and it's gone to the viewer, who is apparently excited, and thereby, will miss important details, like the cloud still being there, but differently shaped.


And your insisting that these explinations should apply for ALL sightings. Again with the math. What are the odds? ASTRINOMICAL!!!


Far lower than your supposed alien spacecraft.


If a bunch of murdered people were discovered there would be information out there.

Surprise surprise, there are a bunch of people who have been murdered, it's almost a daily event all over the world. You must have done them all. The utter lack of evidence is merely because you're hiding it all and threatening the investigators.

Why should you be the only one to make baseless allegations and demand them as truth?


People would work to construct a hypothesis. When they get a general idea of a suspect they make inquiries.


Steps you aren't even making a vague attempt at doing.


With thrusters, I buy that. Most UFO sighting have folks that claim no sound. So thrusters must be ancient history to them.


The next time someone can hear objects from outside the atmosphere, or maybe just aircraft at 100,000 feet, let me know. Clearly you must have found superman with his super hearing then.


Funny you'd say that since you remind me of Tricky Dickie Nixon.

Given that he was indeed one of the most powerful men of the world at the time, with considerable support from some quarters to this very day, I choose to take that as a compliment.

Except the North Vietnamese didn't have that many Russian provided SAMs, and that first generation seekers tended not to be very effective when chaff and flares were deployed.

No. No. No. No. No. Yes you are correct. But why didn't they shoot their missiles at clouds? (this grand illusion)

A second later and it's gone to the viewer, who is apparently excited, and thereby, will miss important details, like the cloud still being there, but differently shaped.

So you are saying that person would think the different shaped cloud is a different cloud altogether? If the clouds are moving that fast, this person is probably soon to be sucked up by a tornado or struck by lightning anyway.


Given the utter lack of proof, credibility or anything approaching honesty from you, I am starting to think that you see alien spacecraft just about everywhere.

Nope. But I would know if I saw one. Anyone would. The sky is a pretty boring place. Hard not to notice when something finally happens up there.

Far lower than your supposed alien spacecraft.

There ya go. it IS above 0% even from a die hard sceptic like you isn't it. If just one of all those reports is the real deal then the possibilities are endless.

No. No. No. No. No. Yes you are correct. But why didn't they shoot their missiles at clouds? (this grand illusion)


Because clouds don't have a strong enough radar or thermal return for any missile to lock on. First generation missiles didn't have very sensitive seeker heads.


So you are saying that person would think the different shaped cloud is a different cloud altogether?

I am saying that the cloud is the same one, just changed minutely in the wind. People tend to see patterns when there aren't any. The branches of the tree outside my room looks like a human skull at night with no lights on, and can look like a car in a moment if there's wind, but it's most definitely not a skull nor a car. In fact, wind doesn't even have to factor into it, just fickle imagination, much the same as your "UFO" observer.


Nope. But I would know if I saw one.

So you say. But since you have shown a preponderance towards declaring extra-terrastriel sources without even a shred of proof, only hearsay and doctored photos, to back it up, I find that unlikely.


Anyone would. The sky is a pretty boring place. Hard not to notice when something finally happens up there.'

Anyone would? You mean like people who claim they really saw Jesus?


There ya go. it IS above 0% even from a die hard sceptic like you isn't it. If just one of all those reports is the real deal then the possibilities are endless.

Except not one of those reports have produced a shred of evidence or even logical and plausible conclusions after thorough investigations. Other explanations are far more likely, and have logical backing towards them.

Otherwise, your alien spacecraft may as well be Elvis riding around in his pimped out convertible, or maybe god making funny signs with his fingers.

Because clouds don't have a strong enough radar or thermal return for any missile to lock on. First generation missiles didn't have very sensitive seeker heads.
First generation had no seekers at all. just woosh boom. So how about small arms fire? How many nations being invaded have war tales of soldiers running out of ammo from shooting at clouds that they think could be the enemy?


I am saying that the cloud is the same one, just changed minutely in the wind. People tend to see patterns when there aren't any. The branches of the tree outside my room looks like a human skull at night with no lights on, and can look like a car in a moment if there's wind, but it's most definitely not a skull nor a car. In fact, wind doesn't even have to factor into it, just fickle imagination, much the same as your "UFO" observer.

Then they realize they just saw a cloud.

That human skull illusion dosn't bother you because you know it's not a human skull. But every night it's there huh? So what if one night you see a strange light that you have never seen before instead of the skull? Your familer surroundings have changed. This one night is different than all others. You go from there just like anyone else to find out wtf?

Anyone would? You mean like people who claim they really saw Jesus?

We've covered this. Elvis. Jesus. Not all UFO sightings are real. But the posibility of ET visits, not just in the past 60 years but up to and including 100s of millions of years before that is most certainly above 0%! 0% is absolutely impossible.

First generation had no seekers at all. just woosh boom.

Rocket != missile. The first generation of missiles were either wire guided or had actual seeker heads and were available as early as WWII with the likes of the Fritz X. Why must you continue to peddle your ignorance?


So how about small arms fire? How many nations being invaded have war tales of soldiers running out of ammo from shooting at clouds that they think could be the enemy?

None that I know of.


Then they realize they just saw a cloud.


Only the sensible ones. The crackpots think it's Elvis, God, Aliens or Uncle Bob and his troop of ninja monkeys.


That human skull illusion dosn't bother you because you know it's not a human skull. But every night it's there huh?


It changes on the lighting and the wind.


So what if one night you see a strange light that you have never seen before instead of the skull? Your familer surroundings have changed. This one night is different than all others. You go from there just like anyone else to find out wtf?

And I will use logic and careful investigation to determine the likely origin point, not jump to stupid conclusions based on an overactive imagination and fear.


We've covered this.


No, you evaded it.


Elvis. Jesus. Not all UFO sightings are real. But the posibility of ET visits, not just in the past 60 years but up to and including 100s of millions of years before that is most certainly above 0%! 0% is absolutely impossible.

So why can't an Elvis or Jesus sighting be real then? There might be that eeny weeny possibility, probably in the thousandths of a percent, that it might be them, coming back zombie style.

And did you know that you could suffer a total existence failure? Along with the entire planet? That's a quantum anomaly, but it could happen!

Sure, it may have a 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of happening, but it could. Better not bother getting up to work or eat today. You might simply cease to exist.

And of course, there's still that same percentage chance of you being the murdered for every killing the world has had in the past 10 years. Better put you in the gas chambers, just to be safe.

Rocket != missile. The first generation of missiles were either wire guided or had actual seeker heads and were available as early as WWII with the likes of the Fritz X. Why must you continue to peddle your ignorance?

If I throw a rock it becomes a missile.
:rolleyes:

None that I know of.
Right. Because people can easily tell the difference between solid & gas.


Only the sensible ones. The crackpots think it's Elvis, God, Aliens or Uncle Bob and his troop of ninja monkeys.

And you have made them all out to be crackpots.

And I will use logic and careful investigation to determine the likely origin point, not jump to stupid conclusions based on an overactive imagination and fear.

as anyone would.

So why can't an Elvis or Jesus sighting be real then? There might be that eeny weeny possibility, probably in the thousandths of a percent, that it might be them, coming back zombie style.
Elvis is dead. Even if he were alive, he is one person, not an entire species or several species. An alien can die but more will still be out there.


And did you know that you could suffer a total existence failure? Along with the entire planet? That's a quantum anomaly, but it could happen!

Sure, it may have a 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of happening, but it could.
But no signs. No sightings. No reports. Not even a hint of it ever happening. Not the same case with UFOs

And of course, there's still that same percentage chance of you being the murdered for every killing the world has had in the past 10 years. Better put you in the gas chambers, just to be safe.

And that could be the case with a 2 second investigation.

You seem to think that one that sees a UFO is automaticly going to turn away as if some reflex. I submit the shock & awe would freeze them in their tracks which would be a good explination of people grabbing a camera too late.