NationStates Jolt Archive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_UFO_incident

July 7th, 1947 a UFO crashed in Roswell New Mexico. On this day, a rancher went out to the field, and found a debries field, went and told the local sheriff office, who contacted the local Army Air Field. The debries were recovered and at first the original story was that it was a recovered Alien craft. However, the story was retracted and the "offical" story was that it was a balloon from a secret Army project regarding balloons and radar.

So, what says you of NSG? Was the crash at Roswell a real alien craft, or was it a weather balloon? Personally the material that was collected sounded like it came from a weather balloon. However, at the same time, I'd have to wonder why the US Army would use balloons for radar purpose against the USSR when they could use aircrafts? According to Wikipedia, Project Mogul was a project by the Army Air Force where they use high alt. weather balloons to detect when the USSR set off a nuclear bomb.

So what say you of NSG, was Roswell an alien craft crashing, or was it a high alt. weather balloon or something different?

It was a ploy to pre-emptively promote alien conspiracy shows next century later.

:p

i don't know, it being aliens seems a little...convenient, don't you think?

i don't know, it being aliens seems a little...convenient, don't you think?

True, it's either from a top secret project of the Army, or a soviet aircraft. Since Soviet aircrafts didn't have to range to fly from USSR to New Mexico, the former must be true.

Occam's Razor, FTW!

It was Bender. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/57/Futurama_ep51.jpg

LG beat me to it.

It was Bender.

He looks like a deformed robot crab.

He looks like a deformed robot crab.

You would too if you were smashed to bits and rebuilt by the Air Force. I can show you diagrams of your reassembly if you'd like. They are a little gruesome.

It was Bender. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/57/Futurama_ep51.jpg

agreed

it was early in the cold war so they were trying several different means to watch the soviets. also a weather balloon would be cheaper to use then a plane.

You would too if you were smashed to bits and rebuilt by the Air Force. I can show you diagrams of your reassembly if you'd like. They are a little gruesome.

I already went through one reassembly, I don't want to go through another.

Alittle sick & twisted joke of mine is that God was drunk when he made me. :D

it was early in the cold war so they were trying several different means to watch the soviets. also a weather balloon would be cheaper to use then a plane.

Yea, but balloons tend to follow the wind patterns. Last time I checked, winds go from West to East. So that balloon would end up in Lousiana before it ended in the USSR.

It was the NAZI’s, their base in the Arctic circle where many of the top scientists had escaped to along with their families continued to experiment on the UFO's which Hitler had told them to develop way back in 1940, the one that crashed in Roswell was a prototype of it. The occupants were in fact a Luftwaffe colonel, and two German scientists, they were taken away by the USAF to help the US develop space programs, in fact the Luftwaffe colonel managed to escape and started up a pottery business in Canada.

there is absolutely no evidence that it was an alien. I have no idea what it was but I do know the value of a conspiracy theory. $$$$

I already went through one reassembly, I don't want to go through another.

Alittle sick & twisted joke of mine is that God was drunk when he made me. :D

He didn't follow the instructions.

He didn't follow the instructions.

Bah he's God, he doesn't need instructions!

Bah he's God, he doesn't need instructions!

Then explain the platypus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_UFO_incident

July 7th, 1947 a UFO crashed in Roswell New Mexico. On this day, a rancher went out to the field, and found a debries field, went and told the local sheriff office, who contacted the local Army Air Field. The debries were recovered and at first the original story was that it was a recovered Alien craft. However, the story was retracted and the "offical" story was that it was a balloon from a secret Army project regarding balloons and radar.

So, what says you of NSG? Was the crash at Roswell a real alien craft, or was it a weather balloon? Personally the material that was collected sounded like it came from a weather balloon. However, at the same time, I'd have to wonder why the US Army would use balloons for radar purpose against the USSR when they could use aircrafts? According to Wikipedia, Project Mogul was a project by the Army Air Force where they use high alt. weather balloons to detect when the USSR set off a nuclear bomb.

So what say you of NSG, was Roswell an alien craft crashing, or was it a high alt. weather balloon or something different?

Best guess - it was a balloon.

Hillbilly with no technical knowledge says it's martians... US military says, no.

You have to REALLY want to believe in conspiracy to follow the 'aliens among us' line.

I think it was just a jet plane prototype being tested that the US military didn't want the Soviets to know about.
It crashed, they gave a cock-and-bull story about Aliens realised their mistake about that and concocted the weather balloon cover later.

Then explain the platypus.

They were the left over pieces in his model kit. *Nods*

Yea, but balloons tend to follow the wind patterns. Last time I checked, winds go from West to East. So that balloon would end up in Lousiana before it ended in the USSR.

unless of course the balloon crashed during recovery, after having flow over the soviet union. might explain why the military rushed to take possession as it contain data on the soviets.

It was Crab People.......somehow....

It was the NAZI’s, their base in the Arctic circle where many of the top scientists had escaped to along with their families continued to experiment on the UFO's which Hitler had told them to develop way back in 1940, the one that crashed in Roswell was a prototype of it. The occupants were in fact a Luftwaffe colonel, and two German scientists, they were taken away by the USAF to help the US develop space programs, in fact the Luftwaffe colonel managed to escape and started up a pottery business in Canada.

Didn't they all flee to Argentina? And followed by "Nazi Hunters" (Alot of the hunters were Israeli surprise surprise.) That's where they got Ikeman I think.

It was an alien weather baloon.

i don't know, it being aliens seems a little...convenient, don't you think?

I don't see how an alien invasion of Earth involving anal probes and the eventual annihilation of our entire species can be considered 'convenient', do you?!

Sorry, overreaction.

I don't think that an alien has ever visited our planet, with the possible exception of a microbe riding on the back of a meteorite like a tiny intergalactic cowboy. While I do believe it is extremely likely for extra-terrestrial life to exist, I'm less convinced that it is intelligent, and virtually certain that it hasn't been here if there is any.

Although I do find it strange how many weather balloons keep dropping out of the sky. Particularly in this day and age. You'd have thought that reliability would have improved somewhat since Roswell.

And you'd have thought that people would realise that they were just looking at balloons for that matter, and not gargantuan interstellar spacecraft. An easy mistake to make, I guess.

I think it was just a jet plane prototype being tested that the US military didn't want the Soviets to know about.
It crashed, they gave a cock-and-bull story about Aliens realised their mistake about that and concocted the weather balloon cover later.
I pretty much agree. It might not have specifically been a jet, but I think it was probably some kind of secret plane.

I don't think it's all *that* unlikely that aliens have come here (after all, humans go to other planets for nothing more than curiosity, so the reverse isn't all that implausible), but I do think they wouldn't have been cruising around some military base. Especially not when having engine trouble.

It was an alien spacecraft. I'm a big believer in extraterrestial life visiting Earth. In fact I believe that I mybadself have been abducted and probed. Either that, or I was *very* drunk, and that guy was just really odd-looking:p

It was a herald of this:

http://10-14-08.blogspot.com/

Galactic federatation will be here tomorrow! Repent!

Yes, it's actually supposed to be a BIG event and there are a LOT of believers out there. Who wouldn't trust channelings of Blossom Goodchild, eh?

:p

Sorry, that was me.

Fergi America;14095294']I pretty much agree. It might not have specifically been a jet, but I think it was probably some kind of secret plane.

I don't think it's all *that* unlikely that aliens have come here (after all, humans go to other planets for nothing more than curiosity, so the reverse isn't all that implausible), but I do think they wouldn't have been cruising around some military base. Especially not when having engine trouble.
I think it is unlikely just due to the sheer vastness of space. I'm sure there are alien lifeforms out there but the chances of them finding us (or vice versa) is zero.
Think about: We've been around on this planet for ~200,000 years, yet had civilisation for the just the last 5000 years and been pumping out radio signals for just the past 100 years and been searching for interstellar radio transmissions for just the past 40 years.

This means that the furthest our radio emissions have reached is 100 light years (and that's assuming they haven't degraded into static by then). At the most. There's no reasonably habitable system within that area. And even if there was, they aliens would have only just received our first radio waves and would now be posting them back to us. Which means we wouldn't hear from them for another 100 years.

And that's only if they are at the same level of scientific development as us. Assuming our development from cave dweller to space-goer is normal (it's the only one we have to go on, so we must assume it is), we've had the ability to make contact with another space civilisation for just 40 of our 200,000 years - 0.02% of our life on Earth.
If the other civilisation is 1000 years behind us in development they aren't receiving any of our radio transmissions. And by the time they do get to the stage we are at, who knows where we'll be by then?
Anyone really think our society and level of development will still be around in it's current state in 1000 years time?

Thus the chances of ever contacting one is basically zero. So the chance of one having interstellar drive AND visiting us is zero.
Interstellar drive is another hurdle to overcome. but I think I've made enough argument against.

Personally, I wish we could get in contact with an alien race. But I just logically can't see it ever happening.

Didn't they all flee to Argentina? And followed by "Nazi Hunters" (Alot of the hunters were Israeli surprise surprise.) That's where they got Ikeman I think.

Some did go to Argentina where they were followed by people who thought that the acts they committed were so wrong they had to go and do the same to them.

Some got picked up by the Soviets others by the Americans

Those that were no use to either the Soviets or Americans were killed, those that proved useful escaped any punishment for apparent crimes and helped their captors.

The ones that would have been useful managed to escape and moved through the network that was still in place in Norway and were hiding out in the base in the Arctic continuing development of the Flying saucers. Their ancestors still live there to this day, though some did leave on an expeditionary force back in the early 1960's to see if they could find another planet that was capable of finding life, they have not been heard from since.

Then explain the platypus.
Kit-bashing.


(For those who don't know, that's when you combine parts from different kits just for shits and giggles.)

The Roswell incident is a result of an author in the '70s conflating two separate incidents, one in Roswell where an experimental spy balloon crashed, and another one at a later date where the military purposefully crashed aircraft containing dummies in order to study the effects of crashes on the human body. The idea that an alien craft crashed at Roswell does not show up for close to thirty years after the actual incident.
This is as in-depth as I can get without looking all the specifics up.

If it really had been a weather balloon, why did the Air Force go door to door and make people swear to silence?

It's fucking Dreamland, goddamn it.

I'd love to work there someday...

If it really had been a weather balloon, why did the Air Force go door to door and make people swear to silence?

Source?

Another thing to concier is the cattle mutilations. The truth hiders say is was helicopters. Now why in the hell would someone use a multi-million dollar helicopter to do laser surgery on a $300 cow? Why not just buy a cow?

To hell with it.

I blame Ruffy.

Source?

Are you kidding me? You have never heard about the Air Force talking to all those people in Roswell in 1947? Ive been hearing about that for over 20 years.

If it really had been a weather balloon, why did the Air Force go door to door and make people swear to silence?

Can you prove they did?

Whether or not you can, I can see a couple of national security reasons that must justify such an action. If it happened. Which has yet to be seen to have been proved.

Another thing to concier is the cattle mutilations. The truth hiders say is was helicopters. Now why in the hell would someone use a multi-million dollar helicopter to do laser surgery on a $300 cow? Why not just buy a cow?

From what evidence I've seen, the cattle are usually mutilated on the ground.

Which suggests that UFO's or more mundane helicopters... are an extrapolation based on nothing.

Are you kidding me? You have never heard about the Air Force talking to all those people in Roswell in 1947? Ive been hearing about that for over 20 years.

What you have been 'hearing' about is irrelevent. What is the evidence?

From what evidence I've seen, the cattle are usually mutilated on the ground.

Which suggests that UFO's or more mundane helicopters... are an extrapolation based on nothing.

Yes the cows were on the ground. With all thier blood gone. People saw the funky lights in the sky when it happened. Why would someone do that. Just buy a cow, take it to a lab and do whatever you want. But they made the choice to do expert laser surgery in the middle of a field. There is just no human that would do that.

What you have been 'hearing' about is irrelevent. What is the evidence?

Good Lord! Just google "Roswell NM Air Force 1947". Sources out the ying yang.

This argument needs more ARE, especially the E part. -_-

Although I do find it strange how many weather balloons keep dropping out of the sky. Particularly in this day and age. You'd have thought that reliability would have improved somewhat since Roswell.

That's how weather balloons work. As they rise through the atmosphere pressure decreases so their size increases as they contain positive pressure. The balloon keeps expanding until the tensile strength of the material is reached and the balloon pops sending the instruments on board hurtling back towards terra firma for pick up.

At least that was how it was explained to me by the guys at the meteorological station near my home.

The odd thing about the Roswell incident was the apparent size of the debris field. Normal weather balloons (normal being the ones I've played with) are big red things inflated hydrogen until about 10 feet across and carry instruments in styrofoam box the size of a shoe box with the stations phone number on the bottom.

But then again Roswell was 60 years ago and the USAF may have collected "weather data" with different equipment, practices and procedures.

It was me. HA HA HA HA

Yes the cows were on the ground. With all thier blood gone. People saw the funky lights in the sky when it happened. Why would someone do that. Just buy a cow, take it to a lab and do whatever you want. But they made the choice to do expert laser surgery in the middle of a field. There is just no human that would do that.

Speculation, science fiction and just plan common-or-garden bullshit.
The first thing you can do, is immediately ignore the evidence that can't be verified. So - all those stories of lights in the sky, or men in silver suits... unless there's some pretty damning evidence, you can write it off immediately.

I've seen 'mutilated' cattle (and other animals, cattle aren't special) and there's little reason to buy any of the hyperbole. Exsanguination is not difficult. Mutilation is not difficult. The sort of damage talked about in most of these cases can easily be duplicated - sometimes just with a scalpel, sometimes with something like a hot knife, sometimes with slightly more esoteric instruments like soldering irons... but still nothing hard to get hold of.

As for the allegation that 'no human would do that', you clearly don't have much of a clue of what you are talking about - animal mutilations are not an unheard of crime. The last time I heard a big story about it, it was a guy in England taking scalpels to horses, but it's fairly universal.

And it doesn't call for aliens to explain it.

You are like Fox Mulder. You want to believe. Where you and he differ, however, is that he demands evidence.

Good Lord! Just google "Roswell NM Air Force 1947". Sources out the ying yang.

Your evidence is that I should google it?

That's not how debate works, my friend. You cite the sources, and we can discuss whether or not they suit the purpose, and support your argument.

Speculation, science fiction and just plan common-or-garden bullshit.
The first thing you can do, is immediately ignore the evidence that can't be verified. So - all those stories of lights in the sky, or men in silver suits... unless there's some pretty damning evidence, you can write it off immediately.

I've seen 'mutilated' cattle (and other animals, cattle aren't special) and there's little reason to buy any of the hyperbole. Exsanguination is not difficult. Mutilation is not difficult. The sort of damage talked about in most of these cases can easily be duplicated - sometimes just with a scalpel, sometimes with something like a hot knife, sometimes with slightly more esoteric instruments like soldering irons... but still nothing hard to get hold of.

As for the allegation that 'no human would do that', you clearly don't have much of a clue of what you are talking about - animal mutilations are not an unheard of crime. The last time I heard a big story about it, it was a guy in England taking scalpels to horses, but it's fairly universal.

And it doesn't call for aliens to explain it.

You are like Fox Mulder. You want to believe. Where you and he differ, however, is that he demands evidence.

To drain all the blood out of a cow and remove organs with precise laser surgery in the middle of a field at night.....For what purpose would any human being possibly do that?

To drain all the blood out of a cow and remove organs with precise laser surgery in the middle of a field at night.....For what purpose would any human being possibly do that?

The Munchies.

Enough drugs and all you want is liver and onions.

To drain all the blood out of a cow and remove organs with precise laser surgery in the middle of a field at night.....For what purpose would any human being possibly do that?

Probably the same purpose stuffing a cat in a microwave is. Whenever you figure that one out let me know.

To drain all the blood out of a cow and remove organs with precise laser surgery in the middle of a field at night.....For what purpose would any human being possibly do that?

You keep saying stuff like 'precise laser surgery', and there's just insufficient evidence to support it.

Again - I've seen actual mutilations, and the removal of organs varies from incident to incident. Sometimes it's fairly complete... other times it's things like eyes and tongue only... sometimes it's just the sex organs. Why? Who knows... but it doesn't add up to aliens.

Indeed, the very VARIETY of modus operandi suggests that it's NOT some big plan by a group of organised extraterrestrial intelligence, but is in fact much more amateurish copycatting by more mundane humans.

As for 'for what purpose would any human do that'... well, the guy who let a horse fuck him, and ended up dying of the damage... why would someone do THAT? People, in general, are fairl average. Specific people can be pretty fucked up.

What we're probably seeing is copy-cat activity. The evidence suggests relatively amateurish humans, performing activities they THINK conform to the modus operandi of 'cattle mutilation'. I don't know their reasons... hoax, joke... attention. Who knows.

Your evidence is that I should google it?

That's not how debate works, my friend. You cite the sources, and we can discuss whether or not they suit the purpose, and support your argument.

How about a statement from the link in the OP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_UFO_incident

"Additionally, various accounts of witness intimidation were included, in particular reports of the incarceration of Mac Brazel, who reported the debris in the first place."

You keep saying stuff like 'precise laser surgery', and there's just insufficient evidence to support it.

Again - I've seen actual mutilations, and the removal of organs varies from incident to incident. Sometimes it's fairly complete... other times it's things like eyes and tongue only... sometimes it's just the sex organs. Why? Who knows... but it doesn't add up to aliens.

Indeed, the very VARIETY of modus operandi suggests that it's NOT some big plan by a group of organised extraterrestrial intelligence, but is in fact much more amateurish copycatting by more mundane humans.

As for 'for what purpose would any human do that'... well, the guy who let a horse fuck him, and ended up dying of the damage... why would someone do THAT? People, in general, are fairl average. Specific people can be pretty fucked up.

What we're probably seeing is copy-cat activity. The evidence suggests relatively amateurish humans, performing activities they THINK conform to the modus operandi of 'cattle mutilation'. I don't know their reasons... hoax, joke... attention. Who knows.

Remember. Your theory would include a multi-million dollar helicopter. How many practical jokers have one of those laying around?

Remember. Your theory would include a multi-million dollar helicopter. How many practical jokers have one of those laying around?

Why does one need a helicopter to mutilate cattle? My friends and I never needed one on cow tipping adventures.

A good number of "alien cattle mutilations" are probably done for the same purpose and by people with similar resources as crop circles albeit, a person a little more morally unbalanced.

How about a statement from the link in the OP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_UFO_incident

"Additionally, various accounts of witness intimidation were included, in particular reports of the incarceration of Mac Brazel, who reported the debris in the first place."

If you look further down that same source, it says that the 'intimidation' story of Brazel was a later addition:

"...in contrast to witness reports from many decades later, skeptics argue, contemporary accounts said that Mac Brazel arrived at the press conference not with a military escort, but with reporter W. E. Whitmore, whose presence with Brazel has been confirmed by numerous other witnesses, including Whitmore's son who recalls seeing Brazel staying over at his father's house... and reporter Jason Kellahin who said that Whitmore was present at the press conference where he "did his best to maneuver Brazel away from the rest of the press" so his interview would remain a "scoop."

Further, it also says:

"...for other claims of threats and intimidation, Pflock said "There are five - count 'em, five - persons who have made such assertions."... Each of these accounts, said Pflock, "simply are not credible." One he mentions is the account from Barbara Dugger, granddaughter of Sheriff Wilcox and his wife Inez. She claimed that her grandmother told her, decades after the events in question, that they were threatened by the military with death if they told anyone of the incident. But Dugger's mother, father and aunt, who were all present when the military visited her grandparents, never said anything about death threats"

Remember. Your theory would include a multi-million dollar helicopter. How many practical jokers have one of those laying around?

What are you talking about?

Why would a helicopter be needed at all? Much less, a 'multi-million dollar' one?

What are you talking about?

Why would a helicopter be needed at all? Much less, a 'multi-million dollar' one?

Ahh. Ok let me explain. First of all. this shit happened about 25 miles from my house. Many folks reported UFOs then the cows were found. Some farmers shot at whatever it was hovering over their land. It was the gov. that said it was a high tech helicopter that could easily be mistaken for a UFO because of how silent it was. Doubt I can find a link. Look at what Bill Clinton tried in the 90s. He demanded the CIA turn over all UFO paperwork. They did. But most of it was blacked out. If the CIA can tell the president to go fuck himself when refering to UFOs your not going to find much on google except the little things that the gov did not concider.

Ahh. Ok let me explain. First of all. this shit happened about 25 miles from my house. Many folks reported UFOs then the cows were found. Some farmers shot at whatever it was hovering over their land. It was the gov. that said it was a high tech helicopter that could easily be mistaken for a UFO because of how silent it was. Doubt I can find a link. Look at what Bill Clinton tried in the 90s. He demanded the CIA turn over all UFO paperwork. They did. But most of it was blacked out. If the CIA can tell the president to go fuck himself when refering to UFOs your not going to find much on google except the little things that the gov did not concider.

Anecdotal evidence, can't be corroborated... and you weren't actually there, so this is second hand evidence, at best?

Did you talk to the 'gov' guys? See the 'helicopters'? See the cattle mutilations?

I've seen UFO's before. But only in as much as they were objects that were flying, and unidentified. Most of them I later identified. Never have any of them had anything to do with mangling cows... so you can see where my 'anecdotal' evidence conflicts with yours.

Which leaves us with the cold hard evidence... of which, there's none.

Anecdotal evidence, can't be corroborated... and you weren't actually there, so this is second hand evidence, at best?

Did you talk to the 'gov' guys? See the 'helicopters'? See the cattle mutilations?

I've seen UFO's before. But only in as much as they were objects that were flying, and unidentified. Most of them I later identified. Never have any of them had anything to do with mangling cows... so you can see where my 'anecdotal' evidence conflicts with yours.

Which leaves us with the cold hard evidence... of which, there's none.

All of the local news agencies showed the cows. Doctors & Vets were astonished by the precise surgical procedures. I will try to dig up something from the local news.

All of the local news agencies showed the cows. Doctors & Vets were astonished by the precise surgical procedures. I will try to dig up something from the local news.

So... you didn't then.

This is why mass hysteria is so effective... people will believe things that conflict logic and observation, if enough people around them say it's true.

Not concrete eveidence but this will make you go hmmmm:
http://www.ob1.com/fyfecow.html

I will look for more.

More heavy shit:
http://www.rense.com/general34/repe.htm

http://www.qsl.net/w5www/mutilation.html

http://www.crystalinks.com/animal_mutilation.html

So how would aliens go about zipping from solar system to solar system? Can they go warp 9 like in Star Trek? Could be but my theory is they live for millions, billions or trillions of years. (so a few million years in space would not be a big deal to them)

A housefly's lifespan is a day. Some turtles live 200 years. So we know for a fact that one species can live at least 73,000 times longer that another. And we are only talking about Earth critters. Life exists on every planet because water is life and space is loaded with water.

You keep saying stuff like 'precise laser surgery', and there's just insufficient evidence to support it.

Again - I've seen actual mutilations, and the removal of organs varies from incident to incident. Sometimes it's fairly complete... other times it's things like eyes and tongue only... sometimes it's just the sex organs. Why? Who knows... but it doesn't add up to aliens.


Specifically, the organs removed are the precise ones scavengers go for. And the blood isn't drained, as anyone who has ever autopsied one of the carcasses knows. It's coagulated.

So how would aliens go about zipping from solar system to solar system? Can they go warp 9 like in Star Trek? Could be but my theory is they live for millions, billions or trillions of years. (so a few million years in space would not be a big deal to them)

A housefly's lifespan is a day. Some turtles live 200 years. So we know for a fact that one species can live at least 73,000 times longer that another. And we are only talking about Earth critters. Life exists on every planet because water is life and space is loaded with water.
So your theory is that their lifespan is longer than the universe has existed? That's a pretty awful theory. That's a pretty awful hypothesis. That's a pretty awful plot-point for a B-movie. On every single possible level that is pretty awful.

Not concrete eveidence but this will make you go hmmmm:
http://www.ob1.com/fyfecow.html

I will look for more.

And what... it claims to be a press conference but offers no corroboration and makes several factual errors, even being internally inconsistent.

Where's the transcript of the actual conference? Where is the source material?

So your theory is that their lifespan is longer than the universe has existed? That's a pretty awful theory. That's a pretty awful hypothesis. That's a pretty awful plot-point for a B-movie. On every single possible level that is pretty awful.

Since the age of the universe cannot be pinned down, my theory is quite valid.

And what... it claims to be a press conference but offers no corroboration and makes several factual errors, even being internally inconsistent.

Such as?

Since the age of the universe cannot be pinned down, my theory is quite valid.

Yes, the entire cosmological community concurring on the universe being approximately 13.7 billion years old obviously means that the age of the universe can't be pinned down.

Also, your theory still wouldn't be valid, because you're discounting half-lives.

More heavy shit:
http://www.rense.com/general34/repe.htm

http://www.qsl.net/w5www/mutilation.html

http://www.crystalinks.com/animal_mutilation.html

Perhaps you didn't notice, but of the four sources you have cited so far, three of them detail the story as claimed by one man, and two of them claim as their authority one woman.

A self proclaimed UFO expert (who still makes unscientific and ridiculous claims like 'cows panic in the presence of UFOs'... where's the evidence?), and a former policeman turned shock-film maker (who claims more evidence than he has access to, and actually contradicts his OWN reports at times).

One thing I do notice is that one person is alleged to have been on the site at the most often reported incident - 3 of your four sources. That three sources detail the same damage to the corpse, then, is hardly surprising. One person usually equates to one modus operandi.

I also notice that the damage described can often just be written off as post-mortem feeding or decay. It takes an assumption that every case is talking about a fresh body to overlook that obvious factor.

As for the helicopters almost always being seen.... then why are we talking about UFOs? These conspiracy theorists seem so obsessed with trying to provide evidence for way too many different theories, that they don't seem to realise their OWN claims contradict themselves.

So how would aliens go about zipping from solar system to solar system? Can they go warp 9 like in Star Trek? Could be but my theory is they live for millions, billions or trillions of years. (so a few million years in space would not be a big deal to them)

A housefly's lifespan is a day. Some turtles live 200 years. So we know for a fact that one species can live at least 73,000 times longer that another. And we are only talking about Earth critters. Life exists on every planet because water is life and space is loaded with water.

Actually, the one thing we know as constant to all lifeforms WE recognise, is carbon - not water. And even that is tentative... theoretically, silicate lifeforms may be possible, because of the possible complexity of silicate forms.

Water is essential to life - for US. It could be toxic to a silicate lifeform. Your argument is meaningless.

I find it amusing that you apparently need a laser scalpel to cut in a straight line. I managed that with a dull scalpel, and I wasn't even cutting, I was stabbing.

Fucking ribcage.

Such as?

Straight off the top of my head, so I don't have to read through that crap again...?

The assertion that ALL cattle mutilation cases have the same excisions... followed less than a paragraph later by descriptions of which parts are 'sometimes' removed.

I find it amusing that you apparently need a laser scalpel to cut in a straight line. I managed that with a dull scalpel, and I wasn't even cutting, I was stabbing.

Fucking ribcage.

There's so much weird science claiming going on, it's hard to know what to object to - which is perhaps the point.

No blood near the corpses. Hey, you know what else has no blood around it? Corpses! Apparently, the vast majority of farmers, cops, and scientists (at least, according to these alien conspiracists) are unaware that blood stops flowing when you die.

JFKaliens did it *nods*

There's so much weird science claiming going on, it's hard to know what to object to - which is perhaps the point.

No blood near the corpses. Hey, you know what else has no blood around it? Corpses! Apparently, the vast majority of farmers, cops, and scientists (at least, according to these alien conspiracists) are unaware that blood stops flowing when you die.

Well, they say no blood. Pretty much every time they offer a picture, there's this enormous ragged gash in the throat and the ground is stained red.

Yes a lot of wild theories. The whole truth cannot be pinned down until the CIA releases those documents without the black ink. If there are no UFOs then what's the holdup?

Dreamland.

Are you kidding me? You have never heard about the Air Force talking to all those people in Roswell in 1947? Ive been hearing about that for over 20 years.

Rumors can often be confused for truth, especially when told again over and over again. How many people still buy that "Obama is an Arab" crap again? And that's only what, a year old?

Or what about that "America never went to the moon" conspiracy rubbish? All it takes is a nut to get some people who look credible to believe them, and from there the rumor snowballs.

Yes a lot of wild theories. The whole truth cannot be pinned down until the CIA releases those documents without the black ink. If there are no UFOs then what's the holdup?
Keeps the paranoid off the streets if they don't do so, though ;)

Why the fuck would the CIA release documents pertaining to something that the Air Force investigated?

Why the fuck would the CIA release documents pertaining to something that the Air Force investigated?
The Air Force is actually an anagram of CIA, plus some other letters.

Coincidence?

Well, they say no blood. Pretty much every time they offer a picture, there's this enormous ragged gash in the throat and the ground is stained red.

That's just the demands of the Sanguine Union.

As for Roswell -- it wasn't a crashed alien spacecraft because the aliens can fly much better than that, and they brought plenty of backup supplies to replace anything that looks like it's getting old. Likewise, the cattle mutilations are just due to a bunch of nutcases. In fact, due to a lack of proper information on what humans look and act like, aliens have not succeeded in abducting a single human being quite yet, although their subliminal messages in the Muzak have been successful and it is likely that many people will begin to experience a peculiar desire to hold naked parties in cornfields within the next few years.

It was me. HA HA HA HA

Your comment loosed validation when it missed the "MU" before the "HA", thus rendering it a questionable evil laugh.

But seriously. The answer is simple. It was a weather balloon. A metallic weather balloon. A metallic, I-beam containing weather balloon. A metallic, I-beam containing balloon with Waldo inside. See, he was a die-hard USSR. That's why the US decided to cover all that. And because he had the Holy Grail.

I know all that because it was me that inflated the weather balloon. With the only thing that could lift Waldo AND the Holy Grail = beer. I have prove. Here: http://www.demotivateus.com/posters/horrible-disaster-demotivational-poster.jpg , the hidden photos of the Roswell crash.

Yes, the entire cosmological community concurring on the universe being approximately 13.7 billion years old
With some galaxies forming only 500 million years after the big bang. If ours formed about 8 billion or so years ago that leaves hundreds of millions of years for a race to get their shit together and seek out the stars.

Now if you have a race that can live 900 million years AND travel beyond light speed then it's no wonder so many people claim to see them.

One thing for sure: If an alien was studying Earth, he would have to ask "What the hell is that?" when observing the cow. We get milk from them. Beef. Leather jackets. Some people believe they are reborn into cows. Some people eat the mushrooms from cow manure during religious cerimonies. Some people just get high from the mushrooms. In Spain they let the bulls loose with people in their way in order to see how fast they can get out of the way. Some people like to see how many seconds they can ride a riled up one.

What the hell is that thing?

Yes a lot of wild theories. The whole truth cannot be pinned down until the CIA releases those documents without the black ink. If there are no UFOs then what's the holdup?

A couple of points.

'The whole truth' seems to be, and may well be, that there's nothing going on. If that be the case, the CIA can NEVER release enough documents to make happy those people who are SO SURE there's a cover-up.

If there ARE no aliens, then every UFO is some other kind of unidentified object. Some of those may be things like weather patterns, curious natural phenomena... and SOME of them may be other things... like military testing, for example. Clearly - those documents are not going to be released unmarked.

A couple of points.

'The whole truth' seems to be, and may well be, that there's nothing going on. If that be the case, the CIA can NEVER release enough documents to make happy those people who are SO SURE there's a cover-up.

If there ARE no aliens, then every UFO is some other kind of unidentified object. Some of those may be things like weather patterns, curious natural phenomena... and SOME of them may be other things... like military testing, for example. Clearly - those documents are not going to be released unmarked.

One thing that is most common with UFO sightings is the incredible speeds in which they travel. If we actually had something like that, there would be no energy problems. We would be laughing at the mere thought of using fossil fuels. And we could crush any enemy, quicker than a hicup.

One thing that is most common with UFO sightings is the incredible speeds in which they travel. If the military actually had something like that, there would be no energy problems. We would be laughing at the mere thought of using fossil fuels. And we could crush any enemy, quicker than a hicup.

Unless there are business interest keeping the technology locked up.

*coughoilcough*

One thing that is most common with UFO sightings is the incredible speeds in which they travel. If we actually had something like that, there would be no energy problems. We would be laughing at the mere thought of using fossil fuels. And we could crush any enemy, quicker than a hicup.

And one thing I noticed living near an airbase?

Most people have ABSOLUTELY no idea how fast things are moving in the air... or how far away they are.

Back then, I cared about things like that. I'd watch the flights go out, and I could tell you the service altitudes and make rough estimations of how fast they were moving. I knew the dimensions of the vehicles, so I could make pretty good guesses about what we were seeing, and how far away.

And other people would come up with ridiculous assumptions, just because they had NO idea how big a plane is, in reality, or how fast it could go. SO they'd end up talking about vehicles that were only twenty feet off the ground, and must have been moving at the speed of sound....

And one thing I noticed living near an airbase?

Most people have ABSOLUTELY no idea how fast things are moving in the air... or how far away they are.

Back then, I cared about things like that. I'd watch the flights go out, and I could tell you the service altitudes and make rough estimations of how fast they were moving. I knew the dimensions of the vehicles, so I could make pretty good guesses about what we were seeing, and how far away.

And other people would come up with ridiculous assumptions, just because they had NO idea how big a plane is, in reality, or how fast it could go. SO they'd end up talking about vehicles that were only twenty feet off the ground, and must have been moving at the speed of sound....

Oh come on. People have seens 1000s of aircraft. They've seen the space station fly overhead when the local news told us to look. We know when something is abnormal speed. This isn't the 1940s.

Oh come on. People have seens 1000s of aircraft. They've seen the space station fly overhead when the local news told us to look. We know when something is abnormal speed. This isn't the 1940s.

Once again, I have to refer back to one of my own life philosphies. People....are....idiots. You give them waaaayyy to much credit to know what an F-18 going at Supersonic speed looks like in comparison to a Cessna going at 100mph.

Once again, I have to refer back to one of my own life philosphies. People....are....idiots. You give them waaaayyy to much credit to know what an F-18 going at Supersonic speed looks like in comparison to a Cessna going at 100mph.

Some people are idiots. But everyone that ever reported a sighting? Highly unlikely.

Some people are idiots. But everyone that ever reported a sighting? Highly unlikely.

Oh trust me, the general population of people are idiots.

Oh trust me, the general population of people are idiots.

Not everybody bought a pet rock and voted for Reagan & the Bushs. :tongue:

EDIT: And the military would be the complete idiots if they tested their newest equipment over cities where everyone can see them. They have plenty of room out west for that.

Oh come on. People have seens 1000s of aircraft. They've seen the space station fly overhead when the local news told us to look. We know when something is abnormal speed. This isn't the 1940s.

Yes, people have seen thousands of aircraft. So? Most of them have never seen a fighter plane up close, on the ground. They just have no frame of reference. And, to be honest, most people can't even peg the speed of a car to within a quarter of it's value.

Not everybody bought a pet rock and voted for Reagan & the Bushs. :tongue:

EDIT: And the military would be the complete idiots if they tested their newest equipment over cities where everyone can see them. They have plenty of room out west for that.

Who said anything about testing new equipment over cities? And what would be the problem... considering there's a proportion of the populace that will interpret ANYTHING as 'aliens'?

Who said anything about testing new equipment over cities? And what would be the problem... considering there's a proportion of the populace that will interpret ANYTHING as 'aliens'?

The same report, over and over you hear about is someone sees something hovering, then flies away at tremendous speed. The military wouldn't do that on purpose to just have to deny it later.

And people have seen the high speed aircraft on TV and how long it takes to move across the horizon.

Basically, none of us were around at the time so speculation is void in this matter. The fact is that the U.S. as well as most governments world-wide have secrets. The fact is that too many professionals in both the private sector working air traffic control, as well as multitudes of military personnel of both commissioned and non-commissioned rank have all spoken of alien technology. There is no question that alien intelligence is real. Seriously, does anyone out there honestly think they can justify the delusion that we are the only intelligent life in such an infinite universe? The point here is remember: if these beings from other planets or dimensions have such an intelligence as to travel light years why the hell would any of them be about violence? The U.S., Hollywood, etc., press the idea that aliens are going to be hostile. This is what they will probably try to make us believe when they finally come clean about aliens just to get support for their weaponry ideas. What a joke. Remember we are all connected, made of the same material, formed of the stars throughout, and many have spoken about the aliens who look like we do and who are concerned about our behavior. They won't let us destroy the earth or them. They come here and attempt to guide us, it is the unfortunate behavior of few who ruin it for so many. Money isn't real, gold is abundant throughout the universe. The blood-whores of the Federal Reserve and maniacal royal families must come to realize that we are one race united seeking to find harmony with those throughout the stars. Anything they tell you, they want you to know. Its either an admission for you to accept, or a lie for you to believe. Everything they don't tell you, you could never imagine is true. Believe only half of what you see and none of what you hear.
We must oppose, we must organize, we must awaken.

It is tough to speculate. There are those that can look at the Roswell incident and see all the holes in the story. Why would professionals and such refined personnel make such mistakes? Then years later the stories and finally the faked autopsy video. These are propaganda tactics used by our government and its called disinformation ladies and gentlemen. A show like the X-Files would never be on TV in the first place if secrets were not really being kept. Yes they have made contact, yes they have used technology not of this planet, yes they keep it a secret so citizens don't freak out. Let's not loose our heads though, you have to remember the majority of the sightings and such are government operations and test flights. They try hard to keep alien contact away, they want us to be scared because they are scared. Those in power are afraid that once we as a society accept that other intelligent life exists, they will loose their control. That is the truth. If you and I could imagine first that we are all connected and made from the same material as the stars, that life is about that connection. Love and god are what you see in the trees and feel in the breeze. We are alive and we are precious. First understand this and look at everyone as an equal as a portion of what makes the whole earth a beautiful living entity. Then you can understand that any aliens who have the technology to travel light-years would never be violent or hostile as they would like you to believe. Don't believe that because they will sooner or later perpetrate the "invasion." Its merely going to be another control tactic. We must awaken to the possibility that life exists elsewhere and that it is intelligent. Then we can realize the reality that our purpose is greater than oil prices, stock value, and trivial differences of religious faith. I urge everyone to contemplate the similarities of all humans and life in general in that matter. The minor differences that have spawned wars are trivial aspects, unique qualities, but should never be viewed as negative. Humanity is love and life has no time for hatred.

The same report, over and over you hear about is someone sees something hovering, then flies away at tremendous speed. The military wouldn't do that on purpose to just have to deny it later.


They don't have to deny it. People like you have created this aura of plausible deniability for them. All they have to do is wait for you to say 'UFO' and then roll their eyes.

And, I've met quite a few people who claim to have seen UFO's... and to be honest, if these are the people aliens want to meet, they're really not scanning us for intelligence.


And people have seen the high speed aircraft on TV and how long it takes to move across the horizon.

Nope. Not buying it. I knew people who thought Knight Rider was driving at 296 mph, because that's what the speedometer said.

I don't trust most people to be able to tell me what colour something is, much less how fast it's moving.

They don't have to deny it. People like you have created this aura of plausible deniability for them. All they have to do is wait for you to say 'UFO' and then roll their eyes.

And, I've met quite a few people who claim to have seen UFO's... and to be honest, if these are the people aliens want to meet, they're really not scanning us for intelligence.



Nope. Not buying it. I knew people who thought Knight Rider was driving at 296 mph, because that's what the speedometer said.

I don't trust most people to be able to tell me what colour something is, much less how fast it's moving.

A jet flying across the sky in a movie does not and does not have to show a speedometer. And concider how many people have attended airshows. Your comparing an idiot to a hermit. An idiot will at least go outside, watch TV and try to keep up. Even an idiot knows that man has not invented something that can go from one end of the horzon to the other in a couple of seconds.

We're doomed. I heard it on Coast to Coast AM. THEY are among us, and there is no hope. Prepare to become a shishkebab for a tentacled slime monster from the 7th dimension.

A jet flying across the sky in a movie does not and does not have to show a speedometer. And concider how many people have attended airshows. Your comparing an idiot to a hermit. An idiot will at least go outside, watch TV and try to keep up. Even an idiot knows that man has not invented something that can go from one end of the horzon to the other in a couple of seconds.

From the ground? Newer generation cruise missiles do that. So do supersonic spy planes. Satellites orbit the planet every what, 90 minutes or so.

From the ground? Newer generation cruise missiles do that. So do supersonic spy planes. Satellites orbit the planet every what, 90 minutes or so.

The International Space Station takes a good 15 seconds to fly over. No way is the military going to shoot missiles over places like Alabama. They have White Sands NM for that. The same for supersonic spy planes. They test them is the desert, not over cities.

The same report, over and over you hear about is someone sees something hovering, then flies away at tremendous speed. The military wouldn't do that on purpose to just have to deny it later.

And people have seen the high speed aircraft on TV and how long it takes to move across the horizon.
I agree with Grave_n_idle. It's been shown in heaps of studies that people have great difficulty judging distances, size and speed.
Why do you think so many people get run over at railway crossings? They see the train coming but because of it's size and because it's directly facing them they vastly underestimate just how close and how fast it is going. I remember a TV report on train-car smashes a few years ago, where a study found most people thought trains travelled at 30 km/hr or less - in reality it's 80-120km/hr (ignoring bullet-trains).

That's with trains where we have a point of reference (the surroundings). Put a plane in the sky and you've no idea how fast it's going. How can you judge?

UFOs: Unmanned Aerial Vehicle prototypes? A UAV can perform in ways that would kill a human pilot. A modern jet fighter is capable if many times the G-forces the pilot could survive, so if the pilot is removed and the airframe is altered for maximum maneuverability, who knows what Lockheed Martin & company may be experimenting upon?

During WW2 there were experiments with flying wings and who knows what all else. It is reasonable to conclude that whatever crashed near Roswell was entirely terrestrial in nature.

I agree with Grave_n_idle. It's been shown in heaps of studies that people have great difficulty judging distances, size and speed.
Why do you think so many people get run over at railway crossings? They see the train coming but because of it's size and because it's directly facing them they vastly underestimate just how close and how fast it is going. I remember a TV report on train-car smashes a few years ago, where a study found most people thought trains travelled at 30 km/hr or less - in reality it's 80-120km/hr (ignoring bullet-trains).

That's with trains where we have a point of reference (the surroundings). Put a plane in the sky and you've no idea how fast it's going. How can you judge?

That dosn't seem like a fair comparison. A train at the same ground level as you -vs- one end of the sky to another? You move your head to the left, then straight up, then to the right. If it's a missile, it wont hover. If it's a jet that can cover the horizon in 2 seconds then there would be no more war. We would crush our enemies.

UFOs: Unmanned Aerial Vehicle prototypes? A UAV can perform in ways that would kill a human pilot. A modern jet fighter is capable if many times the G-forces the pilot could survive, so if the pilot is removed and the airframe is altered for maximum maneuverability, who knows what Lockheed Martin & company may be experimenting upon?

During WW2 there were experiments with flying wings and who knows what all else. It is reasonable to conclude that whatever crashed near Roswell was entirely terrestrial in nature.

They might be. But not back in the early 90s.

They might be. But not back in the early 90s.

How do you know? We had radio controlled aircraft for decades, and I'm sure the Air Force has been interested in such technology.

The International Space Station takes a good 15 seconds to fly over.

The ISS is a lot nearer the earth than a HEO satellites, and consequently, orbits slower. Learn your orbital mechanics please.


No way is the military going to shoot missiles over places like Alabama. They have White Sands NM for that. The same for supersonic spy planes. They test them is the desert, not over cities.

A spy plane that you don't at least test over a city to take espionage photos is a useless spy plane.

They might be. But not back in the early 90s.

Project Pluto was an unmanned UCAV (C for Combat), designed back in the 60s, was supersonic, and capable of sustained flight for months without ever refueling once it took off. Try again.

How do you know? We had radio controlled aircraft for decades, and I'm sure the Air Force has been interested in such technology.

But they couldn't move as fast as has been suggested. Such technology would be in use on the war on terror.

The ISS is a lot nearer the earth than a HEO satellites, and consequently, orbits slower. Learn your orbital mechanics please.



A spy plane that you don't at least test over a city to take espionage photos is a useless spy plane.



Project Pluto was an unmanned UCAV (C for Combat), designed back in the 60s, was supersonic, and capable of sustained flight for months without ever refueling once it took off. Try again.

Supersonic speed cannot cover the horizon in 2 seconds. People that see the UFOs say the speed is so tremendous that they just seem to disappear into thin air.

That dosn't seem like a fair comparison. A train at the same ground level as you -vs- one end of the sky to another? You move your head to the left, then straight up, then to the right. If it's a missile, it wont hover. If it's a jet that can cover the horizon in 2 seconds then there would be no more war. We would crush our enemies.

What is referred to here is an inertial vs. non-inertial frame of reference. To the human eye, speed is only perceived as how fast an object moves from one arbitrary distance to another arbitrary distance over a period of time. For example, imagine that you are driving your car down a highway. You, an observer, look to your right and see the passanger side seat. To you, it is not moving at all. However, an exterior observer sees the seat moving past him/her at whatever rate you are traveling at.

As for the train/plane example, it's easy to see how ones frame of reference could affect their idea of how fast an object is moving. Take the train. If you are standing directly in the path of the train and it is moving towards you from a distance, it is impossible to judge the speed that the train is traveling at. Even as it nears, it is still very hard to judge its speed. Now, imagine you are standing three feet from the track. As the train passes, you have to move your head incredibly quickly to keep your focus on a particular point. Now, imagine you are standing a quarter mile away from the track. The train moves slowly through your frame of reference. It doesn't matter how fast the object is actually moving, only your relative position to the object.

Supersonic speed cannot cover the horizon in 2 seconds. People that see the UFOs say the speed is so tremendous that they just seem to disappear into thin air.

Many medium and short range air defense weapons are designed to acquire and kill fast movers with only seconds to go from detection to launch, because that is their entire window of opportunity.

Please, pay attention to at least what military hardware can do before you claim what it can't.

You also keep talking about the horizon. Let me give you a brief lesson in that.

Also, learn to do some basic math in calculating the actual visible range from one horizon to another. Maximum viewable distance is the square root 13 multiplied by height of observer. That's about 4.7km at about eye level, assuming you're in the middle of a flat desert. Most times, the true horizon is far shorter due to terrain differences in height and other obstructions.

The SR-71 has a top speed of 3,418 km/h, or an average of 1km per second.

And this is assuming that your average viewer isn't simply forgetting to time the event, or for that matter, whether they are telling the truth to begin with. You never actually even source or prove that 2 second bit after all.

I have always held the belief that the UFO scare of the fifties to the seventies was due to experimental aircraft being spotted and the government not wanting to give a head's-up to whoever the enemy is this week.
The really interesting stuff was not an isolated incident in New Mexico, but an mostly forgotten phenomenon where people saw an unexplained aircraft puttering overhead that was so widely seen, Thomas Edison had to swear he hadn't built it-I believe it was referred to as the Great Machine, and nothing of it has surfaced, whether it was an experimental prototype or what have you.
As far as the subject of aliens goes, while I know they're out there-the Milky Way galaxy alone should have about a hundred worlds capable of bearing life that should have evolved up to sentience-and barring the Extinction Level Events that pepper our own worlds' history, could have a 65 million year or so leg up, technology wise, I cannot believe they've nothing better to do with their time than anal-probe hicks, mutilate cattle, and draw crop circles. Maybe we're just getting their adolescents, driving out where the cops can't interrupt their drunken follies...

But they couldn't move as fast as has been suggested. Such technology would be in use on the war on terror.

Rubbish. Fast moving aircraft are only of use once they are in the air and you have an objective. The average insurgency operates by striking without warning and quickly withdrawing. Unless you have assets already in the air, by the time a squadron has scrambled, the insurgents have melted back into the populace.

And fast movers cannot stay for very long over any single place. They exchange fuel efficiency for performance, so unless you want a constant flight of KC-130s creating huge fuel drains and pilot fatigue, you don't send them out unless needed.

Interesting link about chemtrails:
http://www.rense.com/general3/dis.htm

So you're not satisfied with one conspiracy, you have to throw out another, so conveniently without any form of proof yet again.

And fast movers cannot stay for very long over any single place.

According to many that have seen UFOs, that's exactly what they do. Hover for a while then woosh gone.

So you're not satisfied with one conspiracy, you have to throw out another, so conveniently without any form of proof yet again.

Concrete proof about UFOs? So YOU are the alien. What planet are you from? On Earth the CIA and similar organizations keeps such info bottled up tight.

According to many that have seen UFOs, that's exactly what they do. Hover for a while then woosh gone.

Stay in one place meaning in the area of operations, not immobile.

And you do realize that a craft moving towards the point of observation from a long distance appears to be immobile until it changes vectors?

Until someone produces hard evidence, all these claims fall into the same category as ghosts, werewolves and the umpteen million myths that have dogged humanity the moment they began telling stories to one another.

Concrete proof about UFOs? So YOU are the alien. What planet are you from? On Earth the CIA and similar organizations keeps such info bottled up tight.

Riiiiight, I'm an alien for demanding proof that aliens exist. Silly little man.

UFOs: I have not observed any, and I haven't seen any credible evidence. they may exist, and they may be extraterrestrial in origin, but both conclusions are (as far as I know) unfounded.

Chemtrails: I remember the contrails from jets didn't seem to stay in the air forever the way they do now back when I was a child, but that's all I can say on the matter. Rather inconclusive. I am somewhat less hasty to dismiss this area of concern than I am to dismiss the UFOs because I at least have a vague recollection that contrails behaved differently - but that was 2000 miles away and 15 years ago.

Interesting link about chemtrails:
http://www.rense.com/general3/dis.htm

Interesting main page. Seems to be quite a reliable source (http://www.rense.com/). Right up there with Encyclopedia Dramatica.

Any notice how the UFO sightings seem to come in waves?
http://ufos.about.com/od/currentuforeports/a/stephenville.htm
When several people see them at the same time over a large area, can they all be crackpots?

Seems like a long way to go to probe an anus.

Any notice how the UFO sightings seem to come in waves?
http://ufos.about.com/od/currentuforeports/a/stephenville.htm
When several people see them at the same time over a large area, can they all be crackpots?

Yep.

Any notice how the UFO sightings seem to come in waves?
http://ufos.about.com/od/currentuforeports/a/stephenville.htm
When several people see them at the same time over a large area, can they all be crackpots?

Anyone notice how you keep running away from inconvenient facts?

Yep.

LG, that's not a fair statement to make. We both know you got to them first, and that they weren't crackpots before that.

Anyone notice how you keep running away from inconvenient facts?

What facts? If a UFO/aircraft/missile is at an exact angle on an exact trajectory, the human eye could be fooled. So your theory works only if there is a sighting by 20 people crammed into a Volkswagon.

What facts? If a UFO/aircraft/missile is at an exact angle on an exact trajectory, the human eye could be fooled. So your theory works only if there is a sighting by 20 people crammed into a Volkswagon.

It also works if the object is far enough away that the difference in perceived incoming trajectory is small enough to be undetectable to mere human senses.

And of course, you also ran away from the fact that I covered horizon crossing issues with notable real world examples, and inconvenient things like the distance calculations that went with it.

It also works if the object is far enough away that the difference in perceived incoming trajectory is small enough to be undetectable to mere human senses.

And of course, you also ran away from the fact that I covered horizon crossing issues with notable real world examples, and inconvenient things like the distance calculations that went with it.

So how do you explain sightings like the Texas one where people that are all several miles apart from one another, all see the same thing?

The SR-71 has a top speed of 3,418 km/h, or an average of 1km per second.

1km per second? That can't go from one end of the sky to the other in a couple of seconds unless your in between two very large mountians.

LG, that's not a fair statement to make. We both know you got to them first, and that they weren't crackpots before that.

Would you deny a clown his simple pleasures?

So how do you explain sightings like the Texas one where people that are all several miles apart from one another, all see the same thing?

How do you know they saw the same thing and not multiple things which they claim as one?

And again, I point out that as they talk to each other, witness testimonies will become corrupted. That's why any good investigator separates the witnesses and interviews them separately.


1km per second? That can't go from one end of the sky to the other in a couple of seconds unless your in between two very large mountians.

8 seconds is all it takes. You do realize that the lower an object is to the ground, the less distance it has to cover to go beyond the horizon for a ground based viewer? And that's not counting possible things like cloud cover, or even just trees, which will further shorten their viewing distance.

And why are you attributing bionic telescopic eyes to your witnesses? By the time they can actually see most things that size enough to discern it as an actual object with mere human eyes, it's usually well past the horizon.

Would you deny a clown his simple pleasures?

If it served my goals. If it served them. :p

my understanding is that a number of "particles of debree" were recouvered that proved to be of unknown metalurgy, and that one or more had some sort of embossed script that was unfamiliar to anyone who ever got a chance to see it. of course i have no direct experience of either of those being the case, so they could, both of them, have been made up.

at this late date it could, of course, have been just about anything. the idea that it might have come from some other part of the material universe is the most fun, obviously. again i wasn't there.

as for "too convenient", well, any and ever explanation that has ever been given or ever will, will seem "too convenient" to someone.

personally i like the idea of some sort of alien probe, not that my liking or disliking has much to do with what is likely to be the case. what really botheres me, when i was in the airforce, there was a really prevelant rumor, IN THE AIR FORCE, that four bodies, of appearantly not terrestrial origen, had been collected at the seen, and were being held in deep cold storage, in hanger 18 at wright-patterson air force base. a base, supposedly, the air force had inheireted with its formation, from the previously existing army air corps.

what bothers me about that one, is that if these were life forms from some other part of the universe, well if it WAS just a debree FIELD there wouldn't have been much chance of that, but the idea that one or more might have otherwise survived the crash, on what remained in the wreckage, of their own atmosphere, only to suffocate in ours, when when backward headed military pseudo intelligence pried open the space they were in, resaulting in the loss of THEIR atmosphere and its replacement by ours.

which does sound rather like the kind of stupid crap an ego that always "knew" it was "right" would to.

of course there are always a LOT of things that might fall out of the sky, that any military, for its own, more or less understandable reasons, wouldn't want anyone knowing the truth about, what EVER that truth might actually be.

How do you know they saw the same thing and not multiple things which they claim as one?

And again, I point out that as they talk to each other, witness testimonies will become corrupted. That's why any good investigator separates the witnesses and interviews them separately.

When the same UFO is seen in several cities, these people do not get together to corrupt a story.

8 seconds is all it takes. You do realize that the lower an object is to the ground, the less distance it has to cover to go beyond the horizon for a ground based viewer?

And the lower they fly, the better chance there is of hearing jet/helicopter noises. The story always is there is no noise at all.

When the same UFO is seen in several cities, these people do not get together to corrupt a story.


There are things called phones and the internet you know. They don't have to be physically next to each other. And let's not forget that a big portion of these witnesses have already been contaminated with tales of UFOs and what to expect when seeing unexplained phenomena.

Scientology uses the same method when they indoctrinate new recruits, although they give the explanation after the phenomena rather than beforehand.


And the lower they fly, the better chance there is of hearing jet/helicopter noises. The story always is there is no noise at all.

Unless you live out in the real boonies, few people ever know what no noise really is. And if it's a supersonic craft, you'll not hear any noise to begin with until it's well beyond visual range.

Or you might not even hear it at all if it's far enough away.

Any notice how the UFO sightings seem to come in waves?
http://ufos.about.com/od/currentuforeports/a/stephenville.htm
When several people see them at the same time over a large area, can they all be crackpots?
There's a name for that effect. It's similar to mass hysteria.
Basically one person thinks they see something which is reported, and then dozens more see it because they start looking for it. Anything and everything takes starts looking like a UFO.

Much like, say, being in a old house at night. You hear a noise, figure it's nothing and go back to sleep. But if first you're told it's a haunted house, upon hearing that noise you decide it must be a ghost.

Wish I could remember the name of that effect.

I have a confession to make. I am an alien. I am here to observe your species and determine whether you are eligible for inclusion in the Galactic Federation. Alas, your petty squabbles over trifling bits of real estate and your inability to choose a leader with a basic level of competency has utterly disgusted me. And now, after the devastating presidency of the one you call Bush, you are trying to decide between a warmongering geezer and a corrupt and inexperienced but well-spoken young Senator.

And you wonder why we don't allow you to even return to the moon.

That dosn't seem like a fair comparison. A train at the same ground level as you -vs- one end of the sky to another? You move your head to the left, then straight up, then to the right. If it's a missile, it wont hover. If it's a jet that can cover the horizon in 2 seconds then there would be no more war. We would crush our enemies.

Several points.

I don't trust witness testimony. It's an incredibly poor source of evidence.

Now, I'm not saying I discount it completely - but I ask a lot more of it than many other types of evidence.

I worked with the Chief of Police in my local town for a while, and that was something I picked up pretty quick - everyone lies. Not necessarily maliciously... deliberately, or even consciously. But we're a species of REALLY bad observers.

Two cars hit at a red light. The blue one is performing an illegal maneuveur, and the red one plows into the side of it. There are ten witnesses. What do the statements say?

Two of them aren't sure who drove into who.
One of them puts the wrong vehicle at fault.
Three of them list the red vehicle as driving into the side of the green one.
One of them lists a different number of vehicles.
Two of them thought the lights were the other way.
Only one person accurately describes both vehicles and the incident.

So you grab their statements quick - before they've had a chance to talk. Because that's the other thing about witnesses... if you let them discuss what they saw, their accounts merge until they all come to an agreed upon reality. It's not a deliberate subterfuge - it's just what happens - it's how our brains process data.

Witness testimony is notoriously unreliable.

Supersonic speed cannot cover the horizon in 2 seconds. People that see the UFOs say the speed is so tremendous that they just seem to disappear into thin air.

And, if you examine most of those stories, what theya re actually talking about is a vehicle that seems to be stationary, and then suddenly just disappears.

An object moving toward or away behaves JUST like that.

Interesting link about chemtrails:
http://www.rense.com/general3/dis.htm

Interesting in what way?

Someone who claims to be a pilot doesn't know how contrails form?

Any notice how the UFO sightings seem to come in waves?
http://ufos.about.com/od/currentuforeports/a/stephenville.htm
When several people see them at the same time over a large area, can they all be crackpots?

Crackpots is one answer.

People passing on a story they heard as though they were the witness is another answer.

The way that stories merge is a third answer.

When the same UFO is seen in several cities, these people do not get together to corrupt a story.


The same UFO? Several cities?

How does it appear over several cities? Not at the same time, obviously? So... why assume it's the same UFO?


And the lower they fly, the better chance there is of hearing jet/helicopter noises. The story always is there is no noise at all.

Rubbish.

You provided a number of sources earlier, and at least two accounts give noises accompanying alleged incidents - one which mentioned helicopter sounds, and one which talked about the noises of UFO's apparently being something cows are scared of.

Your own sources don't agree with you.

I agree with Grave_n_idle. It's been shown in heaps of studies that people have great difficulty judging distances, size and speed.
Why do you think so many people get run over at railway crossings? They see the train coming but because of it's size and because it's directly facing them they vastly underestimate just how close and how fast it is going. I remember a TV report on train-car smashes a few years ago, where a study found most people thought trains travelled at 30 km/hr or less - in reality it's 80-120km/hr (ignoring bullet-trains).

That's with trains where we have a point of reference (the surroundings). Put a plane in the sky and you've no idea how fast it's going. How can you judge?

if soemthing is a bright shining light you cant really judge if it is coming at you or not. like anyone in the country knows the best way to get a deer out of your way at night is turn off your head lights for a second.
The only reason know headlights= approaching car is experience.

my understanding is that a number of "particles of debree" were recouvered that proved to be of unknown metalurgy, and that one or more had some sort of embossed script that was unfamiliar to anyone who ever got a chance to see it. of course i have no direct experience of either of those being the case, so they could, both of them, have been made up.

Your understanding is wrong.

Non Aligned States:
So everybody that sees it calls everybody else that sees it and they ALL say "let's make up some bullshit"? Bullshit!!

Grave_n-Idle:
How the hell does your town ever convict anybody if you put such little stock in witness testimony?

greed and death:
On some occasions (like the Texas one above) people see it fly off in a general direction. Military jets sometimes chase them but just can't catch them. Yes it could be a second UFO but not likely when someone says a UFO is in Greenville and heading for Redville, then Redville sees it, it would be logical to assume it's the same UFO.

Stay in one place meaning in the area of operations, not immobile.

The one I saw in 1973 * appeared to be immobile for periods of several seconds, then it quickly (and with apparently inertialess movement) changed locations only to hover again. Don't ascribe your own interpretations to eyewitness accounts - in some cases they may mean exactly what they stated.



* I wrote up the full event in a thread sometime in the last couple months, but I don't feel like tracking it down right now. Believe me, don't believe me, I don't care, but *I* know that I saw it.

Grave_n-Idle:
How the hell does your town ever convict anybody if you put such little stock in witness testimony?


You have something against material evidence?

The one I saw in 1973 appeared to be immobile for periods of several seconds, then it quickly (and with apparently inertialess movement) changed locations only to hover again. Don't ascribe your own interpretations to eyewitness accounts - in some cases they may mean exactly what they stated.


This is not bad advice - except for a few thoughts:

1) As stated before, witness testimony is notoriously unreliable. Not meaning to impugn anyone, that's just how it is.

2) If the average account talks about 'immobile', but doesn't necessarily actually mean 'static', but means 'relatively local', then your own version may be the anomoly. There is nothing implicitly wrong with talking about characteristics of typical events.

3) Again - the quality of witness testimony - we've had the 'aliens are among us' side of the debate present sources where the witnesses are not only contradicted in their accounts, but are actually contradicted by their own account WITHIN that account. You can't apply a double standard and say you're not allowed to be critical of sources/accounts.

4) Again - the specifics of POV - an object that appears to be stationary, moves rapidly, then appears stationary again might actually be moving the whole time:

O--------------------\
...............................\
................................|
................................|
................................|
.................................\
..................................\
....................................--------------X

Allowing for the limitations of the medium - imagine an s-shaped trajectory, which I can't sketch very well in this environment.

"O" represents the POV of the witness, the variously dotted line represents trajectory of the body (exaggerated for the sake of the example) and X represents the last point at which the object is visible.

Even if the object is moving at constant speed throughout, it will appear to be stationary until it reaches the first turn, will appear to move rapidly to another point (even though it's speed is, as stated, remaining perfectly constant) and will then appear to be stationary again.

You have something against material evidence?

You have something against several strangers that all see the same thing?

the specifics of POV - an object that appears to be stationary, moves rapidly, then appears stationary again might actually be moving the whole time:

O--------------------\
...............................\
................................|
................................|
................................|
.................................\
..................................\
....................................--------------X

Allowing for the limitations of the medium - imagine an s-shaped trajectory, which I can't sketch very well in this environment.

"O" represents the POV of the witness, the variously dotted line represents trajectory of the body (exaggerated for the sake of the example) and X represents the last point at which the object is visible.

Even if the object is moving at constant speed throughout, it will appear to be stationary until it reaches the first turn, will appear to move rapidly to another point (even though it's speed is, as stated, remaining perfectly constant) and will then appear to be stationary again.

You are talking about one person that has to be at a given point with the UFO flying on a particular trajectory. How often can that be the case? What are the odds?
:confused:

You have something against several strangers that all see the same thing?

Have you any idea what you are talking about, any more?

If three witnesses say they saw you kill a man, and the forensic evidence shows your neighbour's fingerprints on the knife, what conclusion do you think the jury should reach?

You are talking about one person that has to be at a given point with the UFO flying on a particular trajectory. How often can that be the case? What are the odds?
:confused:

Pretty good. We're not assuming any set distance to the witnessed object, and it is just about impossible to ascertain your distance from an object with no reference point.

At 100 feet, your witnesses have to be within a fairly tight pattern to see the same range of motion. At 2 kilometers, they can be spread out over a much bigger area and report the same motion. That's the beauty of POV.

Also - 'what are the odds'? Well - most of the things that fly across the sky you ignore, because they follow a linear trajectory across your vision. The anomoly of apparent motion would be the reason you notice the 'hovering' pattern in the first place, which simply means that you're in a position from which the motion appears that way.

So... the odds would be about 1:1.

Have you any idea what you are talking about, any more?

If three witnesses say they saw you kill a man, and the forensic evidence shows your neighbour's fingerprints on the knife, what conclusion do you think the jury should reach?

There have been a hell of a lot more than 3 UFO sightings. So in your town, someone can put on some gloves,steal his neighbor's knife and kill the mayor in front of witnesses and get off scott free?

There have been a hell of a lot more than 3 UFO sightings. So in your town, someone can put on some gloves,steal his neighbor's knife and kill the mayor in front of witnesses and get off scott free?

No.

"Appeal to ridicule" fallacy denied.

Pretty good. We're not assuming any set distance to the witnessed object, and it is just about impossible to ascertain your distance from an object with no reference point.

At 100 feet, your witnesses have to be within a fairly tight pattern to see the same range of motion. At 2 kilometers, they can be spread out over a much bigger area and report the same motion. That's the beauty of POV.

Also - 'what are the odds'? Well - most of the things that fly across the sky you ignore, because they follow a linear trajectory across your vision. The anomoly of apparent motion would be the reason you notice the 'hovering' pattern in the first place, which simply means that you're in a position from which the motion appears that way.

So... the odds would be about 1:1.

Ok how about the Arizona lights? Twice a huge UFO hovered over Pheonix. It looked to be about a half a mile wide. Hundreds of people saw it. Even the former governor said:

"In 1997, during my second term as governor of Arizona, I saw something that defied logic and challenged my reality.

I witnessed a massive delta-shaped, craft silently navigate over Squaw Peak, a mountain range in Phoenix, Arizona. It was truly breathtaking. I was absolutely stunned because I was turning to the west looking for the distant Phoenix Lights.

To my astonishment this apparition appeared; this dramatically large, very distinctive leading edge with some enormous lights was traveling through the Arizona sky.

As a pilot and a former Air Force Officer, I can definitively say that this craft did not resemble any man-made object I'd ever seen. And it was certainly not high-altitude flares because flares don't fly in formation."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/11/09/simington.ufocommentary/index.html

Either you believe in UFOs or you're part of the conspiracy.

When people don't need evidence it's hard to dissuade them from their beliefs (eg. "true" religions).


See eg. http://10-14-08.blogspot.com/

Ok how about the Arizona lights? Twice a huge UFO hovered over Pheonix. It looked to be about a half a mile wide. Hundreds of people saw it. Even the former governor said:

"In 1997, during my second term as governor of Arizona, I saw something that defied logic and challenged my reality.

I witnessed a massive delta-shaped, craft silently navigate over Squaw Peak, a mountain range in Phoenix, Arizona. It was truly breathtaking. I was absolutely stunned because I was turning to the west looking for the distant Phoenix Lights.

To my astonishment this apparition appeared; this dramatically large, very distinctive leading edge with some enormous lights was traveling through the Arizona sky.

As a pilot and a former Air Force Officer, I can definitively say that this craft did not resemble any man-made object I'd ever seen. And it was certainly not high-altitude flares because flares don't fly in formation."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/11/09/simington.ufocommentary/index.html

You're forgetting which side of the debate you are on. You are the one insisting that UFOs are real. Therefore, the onus is on you to demonstrate reliably that they do exist. Hearsay, no matter how widely corroborated, is still hearsay. So, all the eyewitness testimonies in the world will not definitively prove anything without a shred of material evidence.

Ok how about the Arizona lights? Twice a huge UFO hovered over Pheonix. It looked to be about a half a mile wide. Hundreds of people saw it. Even the former governor said:

"In 1997, during my second term as governor of Arizona, I saw something that defied logic and challenged my reality.

I witnessed a massive delta-shaped, craft silently navigate over Squaw Peak, a mountain range in Phoenix, Arizona. It was truly breathtaking. I was absolutely stunned because I was turning to the west looking for the distant Phoenix Lights.

To my astonishment this apparition appeared; this dramatically large, very distinctive leading edge with some enormous lights was traveling through the Arizona sky.

As a pilot and a former Air Force Officer, I can definitively say that this craft did not resemble any man-made object I'd ever seen. And it was certainly not high-altitude flares because flares don't fly in formation."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/11/09/simington.ufocommentary/index.html

How about the Arizona lights?

What do you want me to say? How about them... what?

The source you provided describes nothing except that he thinks he saw something large and silent (which could be small and silent, but close... or large and very noisy, but a long way away...) and, from what I can gather, it either had lots of lights, or was lots of lights.

But it can't have been flares apparently, because flares don't fly in formation.

Which - of course - doesn't rule out flares being dropped by craft at a higher altitude that DO fly in formation...?

There's nothing here to argue with. There's no real description except a vague triangle reference. Hustler stealth bomber? Mirage of mountains? Cloud formation? Hell - reflected light, even? I really don't know - there's no detail to respond to.

You're forgetting which side of the debate you are on. You are the one insisting that UFOs are real. Therefore, the onus is on you to demonstrate reliably that they do exist. Hearsay, no matter how widely corroborated, is still hearsay. So, all the eyewitness testimonies in the world will not definitively prove anything without a shred of material evidence.

This^^

I've seen hundreds of UFO's.

All that means is - things I saw in the sky, that I didn't recognise. When I got home, I looked things up... and found out I'd seen things from the Hustler Stealthbomber, to 'ball lightning'.

Just because you don't know what it is, doesn't make it aliens. If you want to make the case that it's a special event, it needs special evidence. And "I don't know what it was" isn't special evidence.

It was made of material neither we, nor the soviets possessed or possess... It was definitely not a balloon, plane, or anything like that. The government documents obtained by the FIA were almost useless because they were so extensively censored. And Jesse Marcel confessed that he had posed with the remains of the Project Mogul balloon that had crashed like a day after the UFO. As for the bodies being dummies... Fact is, crash test dummies weren't even used until the fifties.

It was made of material neither we, nor the soviets possessed or possess...


Prove it.

We've had at least one source here that said it contained fairly commonly used elements.


It was definitely not a balloon, plane, or anything like that.


Prove it.


The government documents obtained by the FIA were almost useless because they were so extensively censored. And Jesse Marcel confessed that he had posed with the remains of the Project Mogul balloon that had crashed like a day after the UFO.


Even if the balloon in question landed a day after the alleged landing - there are a couple of problems... not least being that no material can be verified as being picked up ON the day of the alleged landing (they went back and collected it the next day, allegedly)... but also - a balloon critically failing doesn't need to land all in one piece... or even in one day.


As for the bodies being dummies... Fact is, crash test dummies weren't even used until the fifties.

But dummies were.

How about the Arizona lights?

What do you want me to say? How about them... what?

The source you provided describes nothing except that he thinks he saw something large and silent (which could be small and silent, but close... or large and very noisy, but a long way away...) and, from what I can gather, it either had lots of lights, or was lots of lights.

But it can't have been flares apparently, because flares don't fly in formation.

Which - of course - doesn't rule out flares being dropped by craft at a higher altitude that DO fly in formation...?

There's nothing here to argue with. There's no real description except a vague triangle reference. Hustler stealth bomber? Mirage of mountains? Cloud formation? Hell - reflected light, even? I really don't know - there's no detail to respond to.


Well if you had bothered to look up the pictures you would have seen that what people were seeing was indeed a solid object, absolutely massive in size, and on one account getting almost close enough to a bystander to be touched. These craft blotted out the stars, and the moon, the entire sky for some witnesses; and sometimes shined no lights at all. And as to be a stealth bomber, these objects don't even look close...

As a side-note I saw a triangle shaped craft myself once. It was about a hundred feet in the air, shining a green, red, and blue light from each corner. It kind of reminded me of one of those three-sided highlighters. It was not a reflection because I had rolled the car window down, not a plane because it wasn't aerodynamic and flew far too slowly and silently(complete absence of sound really.) which rules out helicopter as well, and wasn't a kite because it wasn't flapping in the wind and had a definite trajectory.

Wait ... wait ...

Someone said something about how you can't know the size or speed of an aircraft, and someone else said we all know how big they are and how fast they're going.

This may seem a little off topic, but how fast can trains go? If you're in this country {the United States of America}, you'll swear it was no faster than 30mph, and they usually only do 15mph at best. It's also believed they're no wider than eight feet, no taller than ten feet, and mebbe forty feet long.

A locomotive in this country is fifteen feet high, ten feet wide, and some are over eighty feet long! To see one of those fly by in a second, followed by a long string of autoracks zipping by in under two seconds apiece {I don't know how long those things are, but longer than locomotives, and probably close to 20 feet high!}, and knowing the shear size of them, one who understands the mechanics of it realizes it's moving pretty damned fast!

Most modern locomotives, in the United States, have a maximum cruising speed of 70mph or so. This doesn't compare to the European Trains that regularly cruise at almost three times that speed. And these trains regularly run through towns at these blistering speeds!

The railroads have made massive efforts to inform the public on the maximum speeds of these trains. But oddly, no one believes them.

One person, in Jacksonville, Florida, in 2007, decided he and his girlfriend couldn't wait on a passing freight train. They cut out in front of it, and would have made it across the track, had it not been for an oncoming passenger train running probably about three times as fast. As a result, their vehicle was stuck by both trains. The biggest piece of the car I saw in the resulting news footage may have been the size of a large dog. It took them twelve hours to find out who was driving the car, and they had no clue there was another person in the car for close to the same time.

If people, in spite of massive education efforts by both railroads and railfans, still do not recognize just how dangerously fast trains can go, how can anyone argue about how fast an aircraft is moving? Especially when there is usually no point of reference for aircraft, while trains have plenty of points of references?

Prove it.

We've had at least one source here that said it contained fairly commonly used elements.



Prove it.



Even if the balloon in question landed a day after the alleged landing - there are a couple of problems... not least being that no material can be verified as being picked up ON the day of the alleged landing (they went back and collected it the next day, allegedly)... but also - a balloon critically failing doesn't need to land all in one piece... or even in one day.




But dummies were.
Yeah balsa wood and tinfoil, which were known to people of the time and not considered "otherworldly" at all. Which is to say only an idiot would have mistaken them for a "flying saucer", and that someone would have identified the material. In debriefing the thin metallic material was described as being "indestructible" and there was no mention of anything resembling balsa wood, only being similar to it in weight.

from the photos you can see fairly complete remains of a Project Mogul balloon.

it was early in the cold war so they were trying several different means to watch the soviets. also a weather balloon would be cheaper to use then a plane.
I agree, it was the early cold war, there were tons of secret missions by the US to protect themselves from the soviets.

Wait ... wait ...

Someone said something about how you can't know the size or speed of an aircraft, and someone else said we all know how big they are and how fast they're going.

This may seem a little off topic, but how fast can trains go? If you're in this country {the United States of America}, you'll swear it was no faster than 30mph, and they usually only do 15mph at best. It's also believed they're no wider than eight feet, no taller than ten feet, and mebbe forty feet long.

A locomotive in this country is fifteen feet high, ten feet wide, and some are over eighty feet long! To see one of those fly by in a second, followed by a long string of autoracks zipping by in under two seconds apiece {I don't know how long those things are, but longer than locomotives, and probably close to 20 feet high!}, and knowing the shear size of them, one who understands the mechanics of it realizes it's moving pretty damned fast!

Most modern locomotives, in the United States, have a maximum cruising speed of 70mph or so. This doesn't compare to the European Trains that regularly cruise at almost three times that speed. And these trains regularly run through towns at these blistering speeds!

The railroads have made massive efforts to inform the public on the maximum speeds of these trains. But oddly, no one believes them.

One person, in Jacksonville, Florida, in 2007, decided he and his girlfriend couldn't wait on a passing freight train. They cut out in front of it, and would have made it across the track, had it not been for an oncoming passenger train running probably about three times as fast. As a result, their vehicle was stuck by both trains. The biggest piece of the car I saw in the resulting news footage may have been the size of a large dog. It took them twelve hours to find out who was driving the car, and they had no clue there was another person in the car for close to the same time.

If people, in spite of massive education efforts by both railroads and railfans, still do not recognize just how dangerously fast trains can go, how can anyone argue about how fast an aircraft is moving? Especially when there is usually no point of reference for aircraft, while trains have plenty of points of references?
I was watching the thing for several minutes... It didn't even make it over a cornfield during the time I watched it

I was watching the thing for several minutes... It didn't even make it over a cornfield during the time I watched it

Any number of possibilities, primarily related to how bloody hard it is to accurately judge distance, speed, and size for airborne objects.

For example, flying at reasonable speed, a fair distance away, but obliquely across your field of view, could quite easily produce such an effect. And would also account for a lack of noise beyond the background.

Any number of possibilities, primarily related to how bloody hard it is to accurately judge distance, speed, and size for airborne objects.

For example, flying at reasonable speed, a fair distance away, but obliquely across your field of view, could quite easily produce such an effect. And would also account for a lack of noise beyond the background.

Yes, and I was well aware of this when I saw the object. But it was close enough for me to determine it's approximate height based on the way the ellipse of the triangle shape shifted in perspective. Also I saw it clear an over-pass from a fair distance away before getting close, and at that point I could use distant trees as a height indicator.

Yes, and I was well aware of this when I saw the object. But it was close enough for me to determine it's approximate height based on the way the ellipse of the triangle shape shifted in perspective. Also I saw it clear an over-pass from a fair distance away before getting close, and at that point I could use distant trees as a height indicator.

Day or night?

Other atmospheric conditions at the time?

How did you time things? Only gut feeling, or did you note down times as soon as you saw it and when you stopped watching?

General background noise?

Knowledge of distance to and height of trees? How high do you think a typical tree is, for a start? In multiples of one person or so.

And many other factors, which I can't be bothered to expand on here. Then we might have a reasonable place to start proposing unusual explanations.

Well if you had bothered to look up the pictures you would have seen that what people were seeing was indeed a solid object, absolutely massive in size, and on one account getting almost close enough to a bystander to be touched. These craft blotted out the stars, and the moon, the entire sky for some witnesses; and sometimes shined no lights at all. And as to be a stealth bomber, these objects don't even look close...

As a side-note I saw a triangle shaped craft myself once. It was about a hundred feet in the air, shining a green, red, and blue light from each corner. It kind of reminded me of one of those three-sided highlighters. It was not a reflection because I had rolled the car window down, not a plane because it wasn't aerodynamic and flew far too slowly and silently(complete absence of sound really.) which rules out helicopter as well, and wasn't a kite because it wasn't flapping in the wind and had a definite trajectory.

I'm not going to go looking up pictures. You think you've got irrefutible aliens, by all means post the source, but I've got better things to do than babysit. Put a link, and I'll click it.

Also - if you think 'not being aerodynamic' rules out modern aircraft, you might be a little surprised by some of the hardware that's out there.

(I also have to point out, reflections don't have to be in your windows...)

Wait ... wait ...

Someone said something about how you can't know the size or speed of an aircraft, and someone else said we all know how big they are and how fast they're going.

This may seem a little off topic, but how fast can trains go? If you're in this country {the United States of America}, you'll swear it was no faster than 30mph, and they usually only do 15mph at best. It's also believed they're no wider than eight feet, no taller than ten feet, and mebbe forty feet long.

A locomotive in this country is fifteen feet high, ten feet wide, and some are over eighty feet long! To see one of those fly by in a second, followed by a long string of autoracks zipping by in under two seconds apiece {I don't know how long those things are, but longer than locomotives, and probably close to 20 feet high!}, and knowing the shear size of them, one who understands the mechanics of it realizes it's moving pretty damned fast!

Most modern locomotives, in the United States, have a maximum cruising speed of 70mph or so. This doesn't compare to the European Trains that regularly cruise at almost three times that speed. And these trains regularly run through towns at these blistering speeds!

The railroads have made massive efforts to inform the public on the maximum speeds of these trains. But oddly, no one believes them.

One person, in Jacksonville, Florida, in 2007, decided he and his girlfriend couldn't wait on a passing freight train. They cut out in front of it, and would have made it across the track, had it not been for an oncoming passenger train running probably about three times as fast. As a result, their vehicle was stuck by both trains. The biggest piece of the car I saw in the resulting news footage may have been the size of a large dog. It took them twelve hours to find out who was driving the car, and they had no clue there was another person in the car for close to the same time.

If people, in spite of massive education efforts by both railroads and railfans, still do not recognize just how dangerously fast trains can go, how can anyone argue about how fast an aircraft is moving? Especially when there is usually no point of reference for aircraft, while trains have plenty of points of references?

QFT. This. This. This. So much this ^^

And bonus points for using one of my favourite phrases: 'the size of a large dog'.

Yeah balsa wood and tinfoil, which were known to people of the time and not considered "otherworldly" at all. Which is to say only an idiot would have mistaken them for a "flying saucer", and that someone would have identified the material. In debriefing the thin metallic material was described as being "indestructible" and there was no mention of anything resembling balsa wood, only being similar to it in weight.

from the photos you can see fairly complete remains of a Project Mogul balloon.

What are you on about?

The only person that has said anything about balsa wood and tinfoil so far (that I've seen) has been you. Building your own argument just to knock it down... that's a logical fallacy, my friend.

Day or night?

Other atmospheric conditions at the time?

How did you time things? Only gut feeling, or did you note down times as soon as you saw it and when you stopped watching?

General background noise?

Knowledge of distance to and height of trees? How high do you think a typical tree is, for a start? In multiples of one person or so.

And many other factors, which I can't be bothered to expand on here. Then we might have a reasonable place to start proposing unusual explanations.

Dusk, with enough light to see the definite shape of the object, it was a clear dusk too. Times were noted via digital clock, mentally noted however as I don't remember exact times but around 7ish, we watched it for maybe 3 to 4 minutes.

background noise: engine of the vehicle at first, than we shut it off and the only remaining noise was a gentle breeze and distant cars

the trees weren't too far maybe a thousand feet but they were on a hill beyond the over-pass... Probably five people high.

Important: during the few minutes we watched we viewed it from a vertical angle of about 10 degrees to 90 degrees to 150 degrees than we drove off. (the vehicle being in the centered point of the protractor between 180 and 0 of course. The object was viewed from a 90 degree angle because it was off to our right a bit.)

Yes, and I was well aware of this when I saw the object. But it was close enough for me to determine it's approximate height based on the way the ellipse of the triangle shape shifted in perspective. Also I saw it clear an over-pass from a fair distance away before getting close, and at that point I could use distant trees as a height indicator.

What was the 'angle' of the triangle? You say it was close enough to judge the height... how far away was it... and how do you know? You say it cleared an overpass.... by what margin? How far away? How close did it get? How were you using 'distant trees' to indicate the height of a close object? How distant were the trees? How high? How big was the object? Based on what?

You have a whole load of assertions, and... well, that's it.

What are you on about?

The only person that has said anything about balsa wood and tinfoil so far (that I've seen) has been you. Building your own argument just to knock it down... that's a logical fallacy, my friend.

look at the photos of the wreckage to see what I mean...

Dusk, with enough light to see the definite shape of the object, it was a clear dusk too. Times were noted via digital clock, mentally noted however as I don't remember exact times but around 7ish, we watched it for maybe 3 to 4 minutes.

background noise: engine of the vehicle at first, than we shut it off and the only remaining noise was a gentle breeze and distant cars

the trees weren't too far maybe a thousand feet but they were on a hill beyond the over-pass... Probably five people high.

Important: during the few minutes we watched we viewed it from a vertical angle of about 10 degrees to 90 degrees to 150 degrees than we drove off. (the vehicle being in the centered point of the protractor between 180 and 0 of course. The object was viewed from a 90 degree angle because it was off to our right a bit.)

So - not only was your estimate based on guesswork of trees, but also on guesswork of a hill? Over a distance of almost a quarter mile? And you estimate that the trees were only 30ft high? I already have big problems with your claims to be able to judge distance or relative perspective, based just on this...

look at the photos of the wreckage to see what I mean...

I'm not interested in looking up pictures. You cited 'tinfoil and balsa'... and then attacked 'tinfoil and balsa'.

That's a strawman fallacy.

So - not only was your estimate based on guesswork of trees, but also on guesswork of a hill? Over a distance of almost a quarter mile? And you estimate that the trees were only 30ft high? I already have big problems with your claims to be able to judge distance or relative perspective, based just on this...

The most important part is the degrees not the trees. The angle at which it was observed relative to it's slow speed and the timeframe.

You're forgetting which side of the debate you are on. You are the one insisting that UFOs are real. Therefore, the onus is on you to demonstrate reliably that they do exist. Hearsay, no matter how widely corroborated, is still hearsay. So, all the eyewitness testimonies in the world will not definitively prove anything without a shred of material evidence.
I think your the one forgeting we are talking about UFOs. Speculation & testamony are all that's available. If president Clinton wasn't allowed to know the black vault's secret, how are forum folks suppose to know?
:confused:

I'm not interested in looking up pictures. You cited 'tinfoil and balsa'... and then attacked 'tinfoil and balsa'.

That's a strawman fallacy.

Project Mogul balloons are made of balsa wood and tinfoil, in the photos are piles of tinfoil and balsa... That's were it comes from... By citing "commonly used elements" I figured you meant the Balsa and Tinfoil.

i wouldnt mind a rational explanation of the ufos over mexico city thing.

has it ever been explained?

If president Clinton wasn't allowed to know the black vault's secret, how are forum folks suppose to know?
:confused:

Forum folks know things beyond the knowledge of the mundane, because they're free to consume any mushroom they encounter while walking in the mighty forests of their home countries. When you eat the right mushrooms (the ones that do not magically turn you into a cadaver), entities from beyond the realms of the plausible will tell you many exciting secrets concerning the true nature of our reality. At least that's what the homeless person with the strange quirks told me, if I understood him correctly from what he mumbled between coughing fits.

The most important part is the degrees not the trees. The angle at which it was observed relative to it's slow speed and the timeframe.

Angle is meaningless without distance. Distance is meaningless without perspective. Long distance equals slow speed and long timeframe.

I think your the one forgeting we are talking about UFOs. Speculation & testamony are all that's available. If president Clinton wasn't allowed to know the black vault's secret, how are forum folks suppose to know?
:confused:

Militant agnostic?

Your entire argument can be boiled down to "I don't know, but you don't either"?

Project Mogul balloons are made of balsa wood and tinfoil, in the photos are piles of tinfoil and balsa... That's were it comes from... By citing "commonly used elements" I figured you meant the Balsa and Tinfoil.

I hate to break it to you, balsa isn't an element....

i wouldnt mind a rational explanation of the ufos over mexico city thing.

has it ever been explained?

There are so many sightings it's hard to keep up with them all. When was the Mexico City one?

i wouldnt mind a rational explanation of the ufos over mexico city thing.

has it ever been explained?

Have Hessdalen Lights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hessdalen_Lights) ever been explained?

The better question is: Does the lack of explanation make them extraterrestrial visitors from Deneb III?

edit:
http://www.hessdalen.org/pictures/ - Those do look like yer average UFO shots but are AFAWK of terrestrial origin.

Are Hessdalen Lights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hessdalen_Lights) ever been explained?

The better question is: Does the lack of explanation make them extraterrestrial visitors from Deneb III?

Don't be ridiculous.





It's Deneb IV.

Militant agnostic?

Your entire argument can be boiled down to "I don't know, but you don't either"?
Nope. My arguement is your side can't debunk a tangable amount of my side's testamony.

I hate to break it to you, balsa isn't an element....
I wasn't aware you were using elements scientifically rather than figuratively...

It's Deneb IV.
I channeled Deneb III myself, it was rather bad connection though so it *could* have been Deneb IV too.

i wouldnt mind a rational explanation of the ufos over mexico city thing.

has it ever been explained?

The 1997 incident? The footage I saw looks faked - it's digital, and the resolution of the buildings in the foreground is different to the pixelation of the UFO image - also the scale of the UFO seems to change... like it was added into an already filmed image, but only at one 'depth of field'.

I don't know if the stories about Mexico City shutting down all air traffic for two days are true. It seems a little unlikely.

Nope. My arguement is your side can't debunk a tangable amount of my side's testamony.

That's because 'your side' doesn't have a tangible amount of evidence.

FOr all the supposed alien visitations we get, year on year... not a single keepsake, no evidence left in anyone's colon while they were being probed, not a single bloody focused shot caught on film.

Nothing.

'My side' doesn't HAVE to debunk 'your side' - you bring nothing to the table.

There are so many sightings it's hard to keep up with them all. When was the Mexico City one?
all sorts of unexplained lights moving around in the sky. there is video of it and everything.

its always brought up when "real" ufo sightings are discussed but surely by now there has been some rational explanation made.

I channeled Deneb III myself, it was rather bad connection though so it *could* have been Deneb IV too.

Ooh! That's a point!

Didn't Ademu (or whatever) promise alien spacecraft visitations today?

Or is that tomorrow?

The 1997 incident? The footage I saw looks faked - it's digital, and the resolution of the buildings in the foreground is different to the pixelation of the UFO image - also the scale of the UFO seems to change... like it was added into an already filmed image, but only at one 'depth of field'.

I don't know if the stories about Mexico City shutting down all air traffic for two days are true. It seems a little unlikely.
so you think its pretty much fabricated?

i was hoping for something more .... dramatic.

all sorts of unexplained lights moving around in the sky. there is video of it and everything.

its always brought up when "real" ufo sightings are discussed but surely by now there has been some rational explanation made.

Oh ok - that's not the 97 incident, then.

[QUOTE=Grave_n_idle;14100395]Angle is meaningless without distance. Distance is meaningless without perspective. Long distance equals slow speed and long timeframe.[/QUOTE

close enough to see changing shadows as it passed in font of the the moon and was not obscured by clouds, so 30-50 meters 100-150 feet would be my estimate... I judge this as anyone would a high flying kite.

if the object was distant, in order for it to travel past those degrees in that time frame, it would have to be traveling at a truly spectacular speed...

so you think its pretty much fabricated?

i was hoping for something more .... dramatic.

Different incident, by the sound of your description. The 1997 footage definitely looked fabricated. I don't know of a 'lights' incident, off the top of me head.

Have Hessdalen Lights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hessdalen_Lights) ever been explained?

The better question is: Does the lack of explanation make them extraterrestrial visitors from Deneb III?

edit:
http://www.hessdalen.org/pictures/ - Those do look like yer average UFO shots but are AFAWK of terrestrial origin.
lack of explanation makes it unexplaned.

i operate on the assumption that its all bunk but sometimes things come up that dont have a good explanation. (usually those turn out to be faked but that doesnt mean they all are)

Different incident, by the sound of your description. The 1997 footage definitely looked fabricated. I don't know of a 'lights' incident, off the top of me head.
it was supposed to be massive and seen by many many people and many many reliable witnesses.

bah, nevermind. im not interested enough to look it up so why should you be.

That's because 'your side' doesn't have a tangible amount of evidence.

FOr all the supposed alien visitations we get, year on year... not a single keepsake, no evidence left in anyone's colon while they were being probed, not a single bloody focused shot caught on film.

Nothing.

Well you gotta figure they are some clever little bastards since they can travel the galaxy while all we can do is be astonished by some water on Mars!

lack of explanation makes it unexplaned.

i operate on the assumption that its all bunk but sometimes things come up that dont have a good explanation. (usually those turn out to be faked but that doesnt mean they all are)

The Hessdalen Lights are a combination of factors. That's one of the problems confusing these issues.

Analysing the data for something like that can be a nightmare, because so many of the results are false positives... car headlights, for example.

The most common opinion seems to be a marsh-gas type answer, and I agree, looking at the photographic evidence... a burning gas would give the right 'shape' and luminosity. Similarly, fire at ground level, reflected in low cloud (or evenin it's own smoke) would give the same kind of results.

it was supposed to be massive and seen by many many people and many many reliable witnesses.

bah, nevermind. im not interested enough to look it up so why should you be.

I might see if I can find something later, once I'm not at work.

I'm interested in such stuff, even if I have yet to find anything really compelling.

Ooh! That's a point!

Didn't Ademu (or whatever) promise alien spacecraft visitations today?

Or is that tomorrow?

Today, I've posted 14-10-08 blog (http://10-14-08.blogspot.com/) link couple of times to this very thread.

It's interesting how ufo believers are capable of such mass hysteria...It must be akin to a strong religious experience.

Well you gotta figure they are some clever little bastards since they can travel the galaxy while all we can do is be astonished by some water on Mars!

Not at all. I 'gotta figure' that the same kind of loneliness and paranoia that used to manifest itself in stories of angels, demons and fairies... now manifests itself in stories of mythical green men from Mars.

The same kind of leaps of logic that used to catapult seeing a stand of mushrooms, into stories of magic fairie-rings, now turns atmospheric weather into visitors from the beyond.

I'll be more willing to accept that anyone is toodling around the galaxy deliberately fucking with us, the minute there's even some vaguely convincing reason to do so.

That's because 'your side' doesn't have a tangible amount of evidence.

FOr all the supposed alien visitations we get, year on year... not a single keepsake, no evidence left in anyone's colon while they were being probed, not a single bloody focused shot caught on film.

Nothing.

'My side' doesn't HAVE to debunk 'your side' - you bring nothing to the table.

Implanted devices... Have been caught on film, photographed, and medically documented on numerous occassions. Any of the implants which did not disappear have been kept on file by Dr. Roger K. Leir among many other doctors. The devices are metal but the body does not reject them as a foreign object and no irritation occurs.

Today, I've posted 14-10-08 blog (http://10-14-08.blogspot.com/) link couple of times to this very thread.

It's interesting how ufo believers are capable of such mass hysteria...It must be akin to a strong religious experience.

I've seen another site that was pushing a prophecy of 'some time in October' rather than the strict 10-14-08 line, and even arguing it might be any time up to the end of the year... or beyond. Covering their tails a bit, perhaps.

Kinda knocks the wind out of the sails a bit, anyway, though.

Not at all. I 'gotta figure' that the same kind of loneliness and paranoia that used to manifest itself in stories of angels, demons and fairies... now manifests itself in stories of mythical green men from Mars.

The same kind of leaps of logic that used to catapult seeing a stand of mushrooms, into stories of magic fairie-rings, now turns atmospheric weather into visitors from the beyond.

I'll be more willing to accept that anyone is toodling around the galaxy deliberately fucking with us, the minute there's even some vaguely convincing reason to do so.

And how many times has an ex pilot/governor talked about seeing those at a press conference? 0. How many times talking about seeing a UFO? 1.

Your serve.
:tongue:

Implanted devices... Have been caught on film, photographed, and medically documented on numerous occassions. Any of the implants which did not disappear have been kept on file by Dr. Roger K. Leir among many other doctors. The devices are metal but the body does not reject them as a foreign object and no irritation occurs.

Show me sources. I don't want to know what you 'believe'.

I've seen another site that was pushing a prophecy of 'some time in October' rather than the strict 10-14-08 line, and even arguing it might be any time up to the end of the year... or beyond. Covering their tails a bit, perhaps.

Kinda knocks the wind out of the sails a bit, anyway, though.

Well, that 14-10 blog was fuelled by channelings of Blossom Goodchild (http://www.realufos.net/2008/09/blossom-goodchild-interview-october-14.html).

But, like I implied it might've just been a bad connection :tongue:


btw. Why is it always these channeling types, conspiracy theorists and cultists who get wind of it first - If the aliens really were out there to visit us wouldn't they appear more...normally first? Like through a radio message or something.

I might see if I can find something later, once I'm not at work.

I'm interested in such stuff, even if I have yet to find anything really compelling.
i dont keep track of these things because i figure if the aliens really do land ill hear about it then.

so now and then i catch something on a wacko program like coast to coast on the radio and i hear about stuff.

then i dont remember to look it up later so i never find out what the actual explanation is.

i did hear a rerun of an interview with a guy who ...i think...had somehting to do with alien autopsies and i looked him up when i got home (i only listen to the radio in the car) but the story was so old that he no longer made claims about whatever story he had pushed with george noory.

i have known too many psycholiars in my day to ever beleive someone's "honest to god truth" on any of these things. ive had people make up shit in my presence that i knew wasnt true and THEY had to know that i knew it wasnt true because we had been together when the stuff they were lying about happened.

And how many times has an ex pilot/governor talked about seeing those at a press conference? 0. How many times talking about seeing a UFO? 1.

Your serve.
:tongue:

In 1974, the National Research Council in Ottowa, debunked a 'fairy ring' in Saskatoon, Canada. The farmer claimed it was made by unidentiied flying objects, but the appearance of crops flattened in a circular pattern, coupled with the presence of underground filaments of the type of luminous fungus that has historically been referred to as 'fairy ring' fungus suggests that the story is part improvisation by the farmer, and part fact. The fact would be that the fungus causes the ground to sink slightly, and can give an ethereal glow - which, it is suspected, the farmer capitalised on by flattening the crop to exaggerate the story.

Fairies AND UFO's, same story.

What's your point supposed to be... I think I missed it?

Well, that 14-10 blog was fuelled by channelings of Blossom Goodchild (http://www.realufos.net/2008/09/blossom-goodchild-interview-october-14.html).

But, like I implied it might've just been a bad connection :tongue:


btw. Why is it always these channeling types, conspiracy theorists and cultists who get wind of it first - If the aliens really were out there to visit us wouldn't they appear more...normally first? Like through a radio message or something.

I think the guy I heard was... Xingod? Something like that - and claimed to be channeling Ademu of the Pleiadian 'Federation of Light'. Somesuch. Today was the day though. Ah well. No aliens for me. :(

i dont keep track of these things because i figure if the aliens really do land ill hear about it then.

so now and then i catch something on a wacko program like coast to coast on the radio and i hear about stuff.

then i dont remember to look it up later so i never find out what the actual explanation is.

i did hear a rerun of an interview with a guy who ...i think...had somehting to do with alien autopsies and i looked him up when i got home (i only listen to the radio in the car) but the story was so old that he no longer made claims about whatever story he had pushed with george noory.

i have known too many psycholiars in my day to ever beleive someone's "honest to god truth" on any of these things. ive had people make up shit in my presence that i knew wasnt true and THEY had to know that i knew it wasnt true because we had been together when the stuff they were lying about happened.

As an interesting adjunct to that story... at one point me and two friends set out to deliberately alter the events of a night a few years earlier. The fourth person who had been there wasn't 'in on' our plan, but was present when we had the conversation where we re-ordered that earlier night, and added events that had never happened... referred to stories that were never told.

A few days later, I overheard that fourth freind telling one of her friends about a conversation we'd had on that earlier night... a conversation which we entirely fabricated.

It's weird - that's just how human brains seem to work - we absorb 'facts' and fit it into our memory. The old mantra of "What I say ten times is true" actually has basis in human psychology.

I think the guy I heard was... Xingod? Something like that - and claimed to be channeling Ademu of the Pleiadian 'Federation of Light'. Somesuch. Today was the day though. Ah well. No aliens for me. :(
Yeah, it was the Federation of Light and lightships that should've arrived today.

Glad the channelers could agree on something, perhaps they were the target of a cosmic prank and now the Goofballians are laughing their arses off :tongue:

Show me sources. I don't want to know what you 'believe'.

example

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK0708/S00351.htm

some pictorial evidence

http://www.alienscalpel.com/2006sur/index.html

professional analysis

http://www.alienscalpel.com/roger/p3.html

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page2650.html?theme=light

Yeah, it was the Federation of Light and lightships that should've arrived today.

Glad the channelers could agree on something, perhaps they were the target of a cosmic prank and now the Goofballians are laughing their arses off :tongue:

Hmmm... where is LG today... it all begins to make a certain kind of sense... :D

In 1974, the National Research Council in Ottowa, debunked a 'fairy ring' in Saskatoon, Canada. The farmer claimed it was made by unidentiied flying objects, but the appearance of crops flattened in a circular pattern, coupled with the presence of underground filaments of the type of luminous fungus that has historically been referred to as 'fairy ring' fungus suggests that the story is part improvisation by the farmer, and part fact. The fact would be that the fungus causes the ground to sink slightly, and can give an ethereal glow - which, it is suspected, the farmer capitalised on by flattening the crop to exaggerate the story.

Fairies AND UFO's, same story.

What's your point supposed to be... I think I missed it?

1 to 1. Now compare sightings to debunked UFO stories. Now what's the score? It's about 4 million sightings to your handful of money grabbers and CIA constructed crap that looks good at first but designed to be debunked later.

A link w/ more sightings:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/sightings/sightingshome.asp

Seems like a long way to go to probe an anus.
Depends on the quality of the anus being probed.

Non Aligned States:
So everybody that sees it calls everybody else that sees it and they ALL say "let's make up some bullshit"? Bullshit!!


Next you'll be telling me that Xenu really did fly everyone here a couple thousand years ago in intergalactic DC-47s.

You're avoiding the point by creating straw men and ignoring the fact myths and urban legends color perceptions. But that's hardly surprising, given that you so desperately want to believe that you'll forgo things like evidence.

That being said, I have a suspension bridge in the Sahara to sell you. Very cheap. Only $50,000. It'll be worth a thousand times that in a few years.

You believe me because I said so right?

The one I saw in 1973 * appeared to be immobile for periods of several seconds, then it quickly (and with apparently inertialess movement) changed locations only to hover again. Don't ascribe your own interpretations to eyewitness accounts - in some cases they may mean exactly what they stated.


Immobile from your POV doesn't mean really immobile. The Earth travels at some what, several thousand kilometers per hour through space, but you don't see it because your point of reference is simply too limited. I've already explained why an object in motion can look immobile when it is on an vector directly facing the observer. GnI has expanded on this.

example

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK0708/S00351.htm

some pictorial evidence

http://www.alienscalpel.com/2006sur/index.html

professional analysis

http://www.alienscalpel.com/roger/p3.html

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page2650.html?theme=light

What's that last one.. a radio show? And apparently, whoever it is, they completely misread the data they were sent...

First observation - nothing peer reviewed.

Second observation - this guy is hunting alien artifacts, and finding alien artifacts. Other surgeons aren't hunting alien artifacts, and aren't finding alien artifacts. Conclusion - Dr Leir is finding what he wants to find... no matter what it's real origin.

Third observation - material entering the body (for example, shrapnel) is known to implant itself, and the body protects itself by 'scabbing' around it - just like the artifacts the Dr is finding. That's not new.

Fourth observation - the only factor that is noteworthy, in all of this, is that one lab says that the material doesn't appear to have a regular metal or metal-alloy formation. However - they are only looking at a fissure in the surface - I wonder why they were disallowed from fracturing the material to analyse it's internal structure.

Fifth observation - the structure could be explained by being ore.

conclusion - most likely, at some point, the person analysed took an injury involving a tiny fragment of material (the encased material in the last shot is 4mm, which makes the material on entry even smaller). The body isolated it, as human bodies do. There is nothing supernatural or alien about the objects.

I have a suspension bridge in the Sahara to sell you. Very cheap. Only $50,000. It'll be worth a thousand times that in a few years.

You believe me because I said so right?

After I check with 4 million people that have seen the bridge. What? you havn't even broke a thousand yet? I'll get back to ya.

1 to 1. Now compare sightings to debunked UFO stories. Now what's the score? It's about 4 million sightings to your handful of money grabbers and CIA constructed crap that looks good at first but designed to be debunked later.

A link w/ more sightings:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/sightings/sightingshome.asp

What exactly is it you're after?

You want me to specifically debunk, by hand, every single UFO story?

Because you're under the illusion that - until I show you the Achilles Heel in EVERY story, they're somehow true until proven otherwise?


Or - do you just want me to do what you did, and find someone that has already done the work:

UFO debunking site: http://www.debunker.com/ufo.html

Implanted devices... Have been caught on film, photographed, and medically documented on numerous occassions. Any of the implants which did not disappear have been kept on file by Dr. Roger K. Leir among many other doctors. The devices are metal but the body does not reject them as a foreign object and no irritation occurs.

And you're going to prove that these documents exist of course, not merely allege that they do. But I won't hold my breath.

After I check with 4 million people that have seen the bridge. What? you havn't even broke a thousand yet? I'll get back to ya.

4 million people repeating the same things I tell them? That's the beauty of viral marketing.

And you've yet to cover that niggling little detail that it's incredibly easy to fool people. There's still quite a big chunk of people out there buying into that "Obama is an Arab" rubbish, despite the contrary evidence being put available on many media sources. People believe what they want to believe, it doesn't have to be true.

What's that last one.. a radio show? And apparently, whoever it is, they completely misread the data they were sent...

First observation - nothing peer reviewed.

Second observation - this guy is hunting alien artifacts, and finding alien artifacts. Other surgeons aren't hunting alien artifacts, and aren't finding alien artifacts. Conclusion - Dr Leir is finding what he wants to find... no matter what it's real origin.

Third observation - material entering the body (for example, shrapnel) is known to implant itself, and the body protects itself by 'scabbing' around it - just like the artifacts the Dr is finding. That's not new.

Fourth observation - the only factor that is noteworthy, in all of this, is that one lab says that the material doesn't appear to have a regular metal or metal-alloy formation. However - they are only looking at a fissure in the surface - I wonder why they were disallowed from fracturing the material to analyse it's internal structure.

Fifth observation - the structure could be explained by being ore.

conclusion - most likely, at some point, the person analysed took an injury involving a tiny fragment of material (the encased material in the last shot is 4mm, which makes the material on entry even smaller). The body isolated it, as human bodies do. There is nothing supernatural or alien about the objects.

lol... you're simply believing what you want to believe, as you have accused Dr. Leir. You get facts and and mold them to your point of view. Other surgeons aren't finding alien artifacts, but strange bits of metal that the body isn't treating as it should, either way it's unexplained; and most of these people weren't shot or in accidents, so it's not shrapnel, this stuff simply appears one day out of the blue. And if you had read more, they did analyze the inside of the objects...

And you're going to prove that these documents exist of course, not merely allege that they do. But I won't hold my breath.

I posted links to a couple of them above.

lol... you're simply believing what you want to believe, as you have accused Dr. Leir. You get facts and and mold them to your point of view. Other surgeons aren't finding alien artifacts, but strange bits of metal that the body isn't treating as it should, either way it's unexplained; and most of these people weren't shot or in accidents, so it's not shrapnel, this stuff simply appears one day out of the blue. And if you had read more, they did slice open one of the internal components...

No, I'm simply NOT believing what YOU want me to believe.

And why not? Because there are other answers that DON'T involve having to conjure up alien artifacts or obscure science. And Occam's Razor tells me not to multiply my complications unnecessarily.

That means - if there is a perfectly good terrestrial explanation, using mundane laws already established, then I'll probably look at that as the most likely answer.

In what way aren't the bodies treating this material as they should? You say that the body is accepting these items without sign of irritation, but that's a lie - the way the body responds to irritation varies, but one of the methods is to encapsulate - JUST as these foreign bodies have been encapsulated.

You say these people weren't shot or in accidents - but I've seen no complete medical histories. I read a news report about someone who had a needle (sewing type) work it's way all the way through their body - head to toe, over years. Years after the initial 'accident', the needle finally broke the surface at the opposite end of the body.

They say the material just suddenly appears out of the blue? How would they KNOW? People who detect cancers don't find them until they're reasonably far advanced - MUCH larger than the 4mm chunk of material in the photographs... and yet quietly multiplying in the body until the lucky discovery.

As for slicing the material - I don't recall seeing that. I recall they sliced the MEMBRANE, but the lab in the last example only examined a pre-existing fissure. Can you show me where they did it? I must have missed that.


It's not a matter of believing what I want to believe. You sound like a Christian haranguing an atheist about 'why do you hate God'. I simply don't accept the evidence you're offering, because it's simply not compelling.

I doubt. And I'll keep right on doubting, until real evidence is presented.

What exactly is it you're after?

You want me to specifically debunk, by hand, every single UFO story?

Because you're under the illusion that - until I show you the Achilles Heel in EVERY story, they're somehow true until proven otherwise?


Or - do you just want me to do what you did, and find someone that has already done the work:

UFO debunking site: http://www.debunker.com/ufo.html

There you go. Millions -vs- a handful. I'm not supprised that your link includes the alien autopsy. Specificly designed to be debunked. If the CIA dosn't want us to know about these things, they should get better liars.

lol... you're simply believing what you want to believe, as you have accused Dr. Leir. You get facts and and mold them to your point of view. Other surgeons aren't finding alien artifacts, but strange bits of metal that the body isn't treating as it should, either way it's unexplained; and most of these people weren't shot or in accidents, so it's not shrapnel, this stuff simply appears one day out of the blue. And if you had read more, they did analyze the inside of the objects...
So they claim. And claim that the 'objects have been scientifically investigated by some of the most prestigious laboratories in the world' (an appeal to authority fallacy if ever I heard one).
And further that 'subsequent lab findings have baffled highly qualified scientists (another appeal to authority) because the implants show anomalies in regard to their biological and metallurgical structures. The objects defy earthly scientific explanations and show isotopic ratios not of this world.'

If this is all true - that they have sent samples to these 'prestigious' labs for analysis, and that these 'highly qualified' scientists are in a astate fo bafflement, and that they show 'isotopic ratios not of this world', why aren't these 'prestigious' labs publishing their findings?


Another point: If these people are totally unaware that they've got this foreign particle in them, which is causing no damage and no irritation to their body why the hell are they going to a podiatric surgeon for invasive surgery?

There you go. Millions -vs- a handful. I'm not supprised that your link includes the alien autopsy. Specificly designed to be debunked. If the CIA dosn't want us to know about these things, they should get better liars.

What does the CIA have over the aliens to keep them a secret?

What type of leverage could they exert on ETs in order to force them to stay hidden?

There you go. Millions


Millions... of what?


-vs- a handful. I'm not supprised that your link includes the alien autopsy.


Neither am I surprised.


Specificly designed to be debunked.


Of course, that is the only logical explanation.

Either that, or a group of UFO freaks really thought they could pull the wool over people's eyes, and produced a moderately unconvincing performance that still manages to sucker in a whole load of people who 'want to believe'.

Or, alternatively, someone saw how people buy into that stuff and knocked out a faked autopsy to cash in.


If the CIA dosn't want us to know about these things, they should get better liars.

Doesn't want us to know about what things?

How did the CIA get involved?

Is there any limit to what you're willing to believe?

What does the CIA have over the aliens to keep them a secret?

What type of leverage could they exert on ETs in order to force them to stay hidden?

Who knows? What is in the black vault concerning UFOs?

An interesing read: Bill Clinton & Roswell:
http://www.presidentialufo.com/clinton_roswell.htm

How did the CIA get involved?

When Bill Clinton asked to see the files. They were blacked out.

I posted links to a couple of them above.

And your "evidence" is people pointing at mundane objects and then claiming "Alien origins".

Try again.

and most of these people weren't shot or in accidents, so it's not shrapnel, this stuff simply appears one day out of the blue. And if you had read more, they did analyze the inside of the objects...

Neither of which requires foreign objects to be embedded in the human body. I have acquired a number of lacerations, usually shallow, throughout the course of my life, often without realizing them. I don't claim aliens did it though. I simply have to remember exactly where I've bumped or scraped myself without actually having paid attention to the event.

When Bill Clinton asked to see the files. They were blacked out.

Which automatically makes it a UFO.

It couldn't be an airbase constructing and testing top secret aircraft in the middle of the desert. Of course not.

There you go. Millions -vs- a handful. I'm not supprised that your link includes the alien autopsy. Specificly designed to be debunked. If the CIA dosn't want us to know about these things, they should get better liars.

Or maybe, the CIA isn't interested in the delusions of poor liars...

Has anyone on this forum SEEN a UFO? I haven't, and the only evidence I've heard is fourth-person anecdotal evidence.

Which automatically makes it a UFO.

It couldn't be an airbase constructing and testing top secret aircraft in the middle of the desert. Of course not.
Other presidents tried the same thing. http://the-nearside.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-much-does-government-know.html
What is the CIA hiding? Surely they would not keep military files mixed in with UFO files. I think they could afford seperate folders. So if not UFOs that what is blacked out? Would the military conduct THAT many secret experiments above cities? Have the Russians invaded our airspace millions of times??!!

Who knows? What is in the black vault concerning UFOs?

Reality check here...

The amount of energy required for FTL & invisible (ie. no huge engine exhausts or IR signals) interstellar voyage - as far as we can fathom it - is so large and the technology so advanced that any race capable of it could obliterate Earth at will, for example, by tagging a (presumed) FTL drive on an asteroid and ramming it to our planet. In a "MAD" scenario the only party destroyed would be us.

You are also suggesting that they - tremendously advanced interstellar travelling race - couldn't have come up with a bioweapon capable of eg. eliminating humans altogether in 50-60 or so years? WTF?

I emphasize: There can be NO REALISTIC LEVERAGE towards an advanced alien race.

You're suggesting a cover up, I'm suggesting looking at the facts of the situation.


Heck, for the fun of it....The only conspiracy scenarios I could come up in 5-10 minutes which would fit paranoid view:
- Doomsday button at the hands of CIAFBINSAKGBFSB if they (aliens) want intact biosphere
- Faster than light momentumless travel is actually trivial and doesn't tell anything about the technological advancement of a race


Then the more mundane horribly complex model:
- Aliens are here researching us and for some odd reason need to do so multiple times at extremely close proximity. They don't want their presence to be known but unfortunately aliens are more prone to stupid accidents than NASA & Roskosmos put together. Luckily the governments are seeking to cover up the information because it would...eh...do what exactly? Collapse the economy? Cause mass riots? WTF?

So if not UFOs that what is blacked out? Would the military conduct THAT many secret experiments above cities?

You'd be surprised.

When Bill Clinton asked to see the files. They were blacked out.

And what does that have to do with the CIA?

Other presidents tried the same thing. http://the-nearside.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-much-does-government-know.html
What is the CIA hiding? Surely they would not keep military files mixed in with UFO files. I think they could afford seperate folders. So if not UFOs that what is blacked out? Would the military conduct THAT many secret experiments above cities? Have the Russians invaded our airspace millions of times??!!

The problem you have (and so does the source you linked to) is that you apparently have never considered that the reason that no president gets information about UFO's... is that there is nothing to learn. So - when all these people don't say anything, it's because there's nothing to say... not because they're covering up.

And - again... why do you keep talking about the CIA? 'UFO' research would come under the Air Force remit...

Reality check here...

The amount of energy required for FTL & invisible (ie. no huge engine exhausts or IR signals) interstellar voyage - as far as we can fathom it - is so large and the technology so advanced that any race capable of it could obliterate Earth at will, for example, by tagging a (presumed) FTL drive on an asteroid and ramming it to our planet. In a "MAD" scenario the only party destroyed would be us.

You are also suggesting that they - tremendously advanced interstellar travelling race - couldn't have come up with a bioweapon capable of eg. eliminating humans altogether in 50-60 or so years? WTF?

I emphasize: There can be NO REALISTIC LEVERAGE towards an advanced alien race.

You're suggesting a cover up, I'm suggesting looking at the facts of the situation.


Heck, for the fun of it....The only conspiracy scenarios I could come up in 5-10 minutes which would fit paranoid view:
- Doomsday button at the hands of CIAFBINSAKGBFSB if they (aliens) want intact biosphere
- Faster than light momentumless travel is actually trivial and doesn't tell anything about the technological advancement of a race


Then the more mundane horribly complex model:
- Aliens are here researching us and for some odd reason need to do so multiple times at extremely close proximity. They don't want their presence to be known but unfortunately aliens are more prone to stupid accidents than NASA & Roskosmos put together. Luckily the governments are seeking to cover up the information because it would...eh...do what exactly? Collapse the economy? Cause mass riots? WTF?

What if (as I suggested earlier) they have a lifespan of 100s of millions of years? And maybe all they have ever tried to do is help? Maybe they detected the Hiroshima & Nagasaki nukes of 1945 and said WTF? Then the reports from WW II about what they called foo fighters. (UFOs helping against the Nazis) Maybe they are the ones that helped Moses.