NationStates Jolt Archive

My point is that the EU is a source that is full of contradictions and it's far too easy to let people pick out whatever they want that's super good for them while ignoring everything bad.

Case in point, the source books, which I again point out were very obviously written to make Star Wars look super powerful in the Versus Debate.

The issue of fairness here isn't one of "let's balance the sides" so much as it is "let's keep the information and consistency level consistent."

It's rather like on most other debates here where we try to establish sources that aren't obviously biased in one way or another. I mean, what if, say, a pro-Trekkie Versus Debater decided to go out and write a new EU sourcebook labeling things like turbolasers as having the power of a wet paper bag, etc etc? Would that be equally considered along with sourcebooks that state the other extreme?

That's what I meant by fairness. You have to establish consistency, and the EU doesn't have it anymore than Star Trek books have it.

(Again, I honestly don't really give that much of a damn...I just feel like trying to arbitrate this because if it's not arbitrated then what little point there is in debating the subject is entirely lost.)

I really doubt Lucas authorized the source books just to make Star Wars look better in a vs debate. Do you really think he cares, as long as he makes money?

Seriously, quite the ad hominum attacks. I hear defamation lawsuits are quite the rage these days.

I think both sides will realise they are fictional and dissapear in a puff of logic.

An official source please? For Trek, that's pretty much limited to movies and TV shows.
The link tells you from which source that's quoted from.

Estimates I've heard put photon torpedos in the 60 megaton range. But until you can either provide a quote or calculate the power from on screen visuals, neither means much.
And your estimates mean nothing at all unless you provide the same.

So Lucas's official policy means squat to you? Just clarifying.
Which one? The one where he said that the EU is another universe that he doesn't get involved with? The one where he notes the EU is just like the Trek books? Or the one where it is noted that anything that contradicts Lucas is officially non-cannon?

Let's look at the third one for a second to see why I discount anything post RotJ. Here are three rather LARGE problems with the EU.

1. How did Vader lose his right hand? If you listen to Lucas, he lost it fighting Dooku the first time around. The EU however... Well, apparently the Emperor had it removed as punishment for the loss of the first Death Star. Oops.

2. When did Boba Fett bite the dust? The EU has him surviving on Tatooine and going on (and on, and on, and on) in any number of books. Great, Fett's a cool character... except one little problem, it seems that Lucas has stated that Fett did indeed die on Tatooine in RotJ. It would seem that a whole lot of the EU proceeded to ignore Lucas on that one. Oops.

3. And now the big one, Vader's hand and Boba Fett's death are but little things, this one is the one where the EU massively contradicts the films. Who is the chosen one and what was that prophesy? According to Lucas, who stated it point blank, Anakin Skywalker was indeed the chosen one and the prophesy is that he would bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith, which he accomplished though killing the Emperor and his own death. Lucas has gone on record as saying that the whole film arc is the story of the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, nothing more, nothing less. So why then are there so many Sith wandering around the EU? You can't sneeze without hitting one. Pappy himself makes a repeat appearance, TWICE! Hell, they even have yet ANOTHER Skywalker fall to being a Sith (Must run in the family I guess). For the EU to fully ignore this fact, the main thrust of the film series that balance was achieved and the Sith were defeated, well, I'm sorry, but that knocks the EU right out of official cannon for me. I like some of the EU stories, I enjoy reading them, but I also enjoy the Trek books as well and I know they to are not cannon. Unless you can somehow tell me why I should pay attention to something that has badly mangled the films, it ain't cannon.

Seriously, quite the ad hominum attacks. I hear defamation lawsuits are quite the rage these days.

Ad hominem?

I really doubt Lucas authorized the source books just to make Star Wars look better in a vs debate. Do you really think he cares, as long as he makes money?
Lucas might not, the authors however...

Seriously, quite the ad hominum attacks. I hear defamation lawsuits are quite the rage these days.
What ad hominum attack are you talking about?

I love being ignored. Makes me feel so warm.

I really doubt Lucas authorized the source books just to make Star Wars look better in a vs debate. Do you really think he cares, as long as he makes money?
Considering he's been quoted as saying he considers the EU as an alternate universe, I'd be absolutely amazed if he did.

What I said was that the authors wrote them for these purposes, which IS somewhat likely. Think about how Base Delta Zero went from just a pithy phrase for some little action and somehow transformed into completely destroying an entire planet, for example.

The Versus Debate has been raging for a very long time. Pretending that books aren't written--on both sides, mind--for the sake of the Versus Debate(no matter what the "official" reason is) is a little naive. (The thought is, not you.)

Seriously, quite the ad hominum attacks. I hear defamation lawsuits are quite the rage these days.

What attacks? You mean saying that I don't really care? I don't. I'm just being pedantic.

I think both sides will realise they are fictional and dissapear in a puff of logic.This, maybe? :)

This, maybe? :)

Ah, someone agrees. Good.

I love being ignored. Makes me feel so warm.
You should know by now that anyone who says something right gets ignored here. ;)

You should know by now that anyone who says something right gets ignored here. ;)

What if i say something left?

What if i say something left?

You get your ego massaged.

You get your ego massaged.

Excellent. Put me down for 2.

What if i say something left?
Then we just start debating who's on first. :tongue:

Then we just start debating who's on first. :tongue:

Or last... :p

Hmm, out of the expanded universe for Star Wars the one series I know was authorized as the continuation of Star Wars was the Thrawn Trilogy by Timothy Zahn and may prehaps the hand of Thrawn the sequel duology. So I would ranks those as pretty high as canon I am not so sure about the rest of the expanded universe though. That would throw in Planetary shields into the mix on the star war side, though as Thrawn showed those are far from infalliable and can be brought down by covert agents without firing an shot.

Erm... I have not one clue what the above post is about. :p

Anakin Skywalker was indeed the chosen one and the prophesy is that he would bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith, which he accomplished though killing the Emperor and his own death.

This one always bugged me.

I mean - I know Lucas is clearly not any kind of scientist, you only have to look at his 'science' fiction to see... but 'bringing balance' by REMOVING one side of the equation?

This one always bugged me.

I mean - I know Lucas is clearly not any kind of scientist, you only have to look at his 'science' fiction to see... but 'bringing balance' by REMOVING one side of the equation?

Gerogre Lucas is a Very Bushian thinking. aka just remove bad dictator and democracy grows.

startrek wins. look with few exceptions all of star wars ships have small lasers that wouldnt even hurt hurt the startrek ships. i just dont see an x-wing taking out the enterprise. star wars would win a ground war but if they cant get their it wont do anygood.

startrek wins. look with few exceptions all of star wars ships have small lasers that wouldnt even hurt hurt the startrek ships. i just dont see an x-wing taking out the enterprise. star wars would win a ground war but if they cant get their it wont do anygood.


Um... I'm pretty sure that a Super Star Destroyer would be a match for Enterprise. And I think just about any Star Destroyer or Mon Calamari Cruiser would be, as well. Star Wars has an abundance of heavy units.

Also, X-wings and such have clearly been shown to be capable of taking out much larger vessels. Similar to how carrier planes are quite capable of taking out destroyers, cruisers, submarines, battleships and aircraft carriers. They never send just one X-wing or something against a capital ship, they send whole squadrons. X-wings took out the Death Star, and numerous Star Destroyers at the Battle of Endor (along with Y-Wings, B-Wings and A-Wings). They're clearly an analogy for carrier based aircraft.

Finally, previous arguments have hinged on the Borg, not on Federation starships.

Gerogre Lucas is a Very Bushian thinking. aka just remove bad dictator and democracy grows.

Yes, and also he´s awesome with story inconsistencies. Like the Dubya!:tongue:

^Agrees^

Considering he's been quoted as saying he considers the EU as an alternate universe, I'd be absolutely amazed if he did.

What I said was that the authors wrote them for these purposes, which IS somewhat likely. Think about how Base Delta Zero went from just a pithy phrase for some little action and somehow transformed into completely destroying an entire planet, for example.

The Versus Debate has been raging for a very long time. Pretending that books aren't written--on both sides, mind--for the sake of the Versus Debate(no matter what the "official" reason is) is a little naive. (The thought is, not you.)

What's so odd about a Base Delta Zero? If the Death Star can blow a planet apart, a Star Destroyer should be able to melt the crust over a few hours.

What attacks? You mean saying that I don't really care? I don't. I'm just being pedantic.

No, accusing EU authors of being writing their books out of bias in the vrs debate.

Hmm, out of the expanded universe for Star Wars the one series I know was authorized as the continuation of Star Wars was the Thrawn Trilogy by Timothy Zahn and may prehaps the hand of Thrawn the sequel duology. So I would ranks those as pretty high as canon I am not so sure about the rest of the expanded universe though. That would throw in Planetary shields into the mix on the star war side, though as Thrawn showed those are far from infalliable and can be brought down by covert agents without firing an shot.

Their is an official cannon scale. Learn it.

I'd like to see a fight between That Imperial Navy and The Romulan Republic.

*Charges the Buttered Toast Cannon of doom*

What's so odd about a Base Delta Zero? If the Death Star can blow a planet apart, a Star Destroyer should be able to melt the crust over a few hours.

I don't normally rely on this guy for much in the way of information, because he's as biased as Mike Wong, but he is accurate on this, at least:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWbd0.html


No, accusing EU authors of being writing their books out of bias in the vrs debate.

I'm not sure how I see that as an ad hominim. Potentially insulting, sure, but ad hominim? Not really.

Especially since I'm not saying all are. I'm saying some are.

I'd like to see a fight between That Imperial Navy and The Romulan Republic.

I'm always ready for a good fight.

I'm always ready for a good fight.

*bellows*
GEEK FIGHT!!!


:D

I'm not a geek! I'm a Knight!

I'm not a geek! I'm a Knight!

That's very geeky.;)

That's very geeky.;)

MODEDITED Pic because I'm a mean old mod who doesn't have a sense of humour, won't let anyone have any fun any more and doesn't realise that posting the initials is not the same as saying it straight out and anyway should know you were just joking because you put a smiley after it.

Unfortunately, my deficits in this area are shared by the teachers of the schools who use this site and the managers of the people who access it from work.[/MODEDIT]

This one always bugged me.

I mean - I know Lucas is clearly not any kind of scientist, you only have to look at his 'science' fiction to see... but 'bringing balance' by REMOVING one side of the equation?
I never quite understood that one either, but... well, he's the one who said it and it's his world so...

And here I always thought the balance bringing was by eliminating the huge unbalancing amount of Jedi.

And here I always thought the balance bringing was by eliminating the huge unbalancing amount of Jedi.

That's what I always figured. I always thought it was tragic irony that they trained Anakin thinking he would bring "balance" to the force, not realizing the implied meaning that he would change the balance from hundreds of Jedi versus two Sith to two Jedi versus two Sith. I guess my interpretation was wrong, and that changes things from tragic, but excellent, storytelling to cheap plastic deus ex.

That's what I always figured. I always thought it was tragic irony that they trained Anakin thinking he would bring "balance" to the force, not realizing the implied meaning that he would change the balance from hundreds of Jedi versus two Sith to two Jedi versus two Sith. I guess my interpretation was wrong, and that changes things from tragic, but excellent, storytelling to cheap plastic deus ex.

I always thought it was "Bring balance to the force and destroy the Sith." In that case, they don't necessarily have to happen at the same time, but it's easy to mistake one as the cause of the other.

Seeing how often the Borg lost, resistance is actually quite likely to succeed.

The Borg lost against who? The highly resourceful Federation. Why did the Borg lose the first time? Because they tried a different strategy to the normal "assimilate first, ask questions later". They learned not to do this mistake again. Why did they lose in future encounters with the Federation? Because Picard, a result of their mistake, held valuable insights into how the Borg work.

Moreover, the Federation never really encountered a Borg invasion. The Borg would just send the odd cube out to see if it would work. The Borg were typically too busy fighting off 8472. As was showed in Voyager, 8472 are incompatable with Borg technology, both biologically and technologically. But the Empire consists of humans for the most part, and will therefore be easily assimilatable.

Indeed. The Borg simply don't consider the Federation that much of a threat. They're simply another target to be assimilated eventually, and in the meantime, they consolidate their power in their own quadrant of the galaxy.

When the Borg want to invade, as in truly invade...The Federation won't be able to stop them. We're not talking one cube. We're talking thousands, if not more.

Indeed. The Borg simply don't consider the Federation that much of a threat. They're simply another target to be assimilated eventually, and in the meantime, they consolidate their power in their own quadrant of the galaxy.

When the Borg want to invade, as in truly invade...The Federation won't be able to stop them. We're not talking one cube. We're talking thousands, if not more.

Which is why the Borg will never invade?

If the Empire sent ships into the 24th century Milky Way, Darth Vader would lose his Force powers, the Death Star's main weapon would cease functioning (or at least, fire with laughably poor results), their Star Destroyers turbolasers would stop working (or again, just be crap), and their hyperdrives wouldn't work.

If the Federation sent forces into the domain of the Galactic Empire, their phasers would cease to function, their warp drives wouldn't work, their shields wouldn't block anything and their technobabble would cause them to spontaneously combust.

And in either case, the magical materials each faction chooses to manufacture their ships from would simply vanish upon entering their opponent's universe.

The laws of physics function completely differently in each universe - the crossover simply couldn't happen.

And in either scenario, Paramount would sue Lucas or Lucas would sue Paramount for stealing their intellectual property.

Which is why the Borg will never invade?
Indeed.
If the Empire sent ships into the 24th century Milky Way, Darth Vader would lose his Force powers, the Death Star's main weapon would cease functioning (or at least, fire with laughably poor results), their Star Destroyers turbolasers would stop working (or again, just be crap), and their hyperdrives wouldn't work.

If the Federation sent forces into the domain of the Galactic Empire, their phasers would cease to function, their warp drives wouldn't work, their shields wouldn't block anything and their technobabble would cause them to spontaneously combust.

And in either case, the magical materials each faction chooses to manufacture their ships from would simply vanish upon entering their opponent's universe.

The laws of physics function completely differently in each universe - the crossover simply couldn't happen.

And in either scenario, Paramount would sue Lucas or Lucas would sue Paramount for stealing their intellectual property.

Pfft, are you kidding? There'd be huge amounts of money in it for both Paramount and Lucasfilms if they cooperated in a joint venture.

And we all know it'd end up with the Federation supporting the Rebellion while helping them kick the Empire's ass(an ass that probably sided with the Dominion or the Borg or something) in a courageously dramatic struggle all set to a beautiful combination of John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith.

...

That actually sounds pretty awesome.

Indeed.
Because if they did, that would result in the defeat of the Good Guys.

Pfft, are you kidding? There'd be huge amounts of money in it for both Paramount and Lucasfilms if they cooperated in a joint venture.

And we all know it'd end up with the Federation supporting the Rebellion while helping them kick the Empire's ass(an ass that probably sided with the Dominion or the Borg or something) in a courageously dramatic struggle all set to a beautiful combination of John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith.

...

That actually sounds pretty awesome.

It does, in fact. And yes, the Federation and the Rebel Alliance would not fight each other, since, both being the Good Guys of their respective universes, they share most ideals.

I'm not sure the Empire would ally with the Borg, though. While both are the Bad Guys, their motivations are not the same. Plus, the Borg seem like they kinda just don't do the whole "alliance" thing.

And in either scenario, Paramount would sue Lucas or Lucas would sue Paramount for stealing their intellectual property.

Great.... now we will have the lawyers arguing over which is better. That is a real improvement thanx.

Because if they did, that would result in the defeat of the Good Guys.

It's the same reason why any other big sci-fi villain falls, really. The almighty plot.


It does, in fact. And yes, the Federation and the Rebel Alliance would not fight each other, since, both being the Good Guys of their respective universes, they share most ideals.

I'm not sure the Empire would ally with the Borg, though. While both are the Bad Guys, their motivations are not the same. Plus, the Borg seem like they kinda just don't do the whole "alliance" thing.
Well, true. My point was that they'd ally with a Big Baddie. The only really Big Baddies left, though, are the Borg and POSSIBLY the Dominion. (Though even they're questionable.)

Maybe the Romulans and the Klingons could go baddie again. They're always good for switching it up.

The Borg lost against who?

Time travelers, exploding biological ships, etc, etc.

As for the assimilation problem, there's a cheap, ruthless solution to that. Sealed containment suits and explosive vests wired to trigger on suit breach.

Time travelers, exploding biological ships, etc, etc.

As for the assimilation problem, there's a cheap, ruthless solution to that. Sealed containment suits and explosive vests wired to trigger on suit breach.

Not enough. It only takes one surviving Borg somewhere to create a full out collective again.

Remember First Contact? Remember how the Borg cube was destroyed, and then the Sphere?

There was undoubtedly only one, maybe two drones tops who transported over to the Enterprise. There wouldn't have been time for anything else, and they were hidden for awhile before taking over the ship.

Yet they nearly succeeded in their goal despite being so reduced.

The Borg trying to assimilate the galaxy of Star Wars would not be so easily stopped.

Not enough. It only takes one surviving Borg somewhere to create a full out collective again.

Remember First Contact? Remember how the Borg cube was destroyed, and then the Sphere?

There was undoubtedly only one, maybe two drones tops who transported over to the Enterprise. There wouldn't have been time for anything else, and they were hidden for awhile before taking over the ship.

Yet they nearly succeeded in their goal despite being so reduced.

The Borg trying to assimilate the galaxy of Star Wars would not be so easily stopped.

I dunno... the galaxy of star wars seems to have an infinite number of alien species. One would probably be unassimilateable, similar to 8472.

Of course, the whole point of 8472 is to be mysterious and frightening. There's just some sort of unknown terror, so strong and horrible that even the relentless Borg are scared of them. The fact that they have no name, just a number, further helps with this sort of terrifying image.

Not enough. It only takes one surviving Borg somewhere to create a full out collective again.

This assumes the Borg can find enough parts of an intact biological to assimilate. They're not going to find that when the biologicals commonly explode in their faces when attempting assimilation.

This assumes the Borg can find enough parts of an intact biological to assimilate. They're not going to find that when the biologicals commonly explode in their faces when attempting assimilation.

And how long do you think it'll take before the Empire adopts this strategy to begin with?

For that matter, what makes you think they can do it everywhere? The Empire doesn't control every single planet in the entire galaxy, after all.

Hopefully my little pets, Species 8472, will defeat everyone.

And how long do you think it'll take before the Empire adopts this strategy to begin with?

Probably about the time it takes for them to figure out the nature of the threat. For that matter, I expect frontier worlds at risk of seizure would have some sort of fail deadly device that would not only destroy the populace, and cities but anything in low orbit.

It is the logical move until a more effective means of fighting an interstellar plague shows up.

In either case, Borg shields do not block the following. Electromagnetic radiation, gas and physical matter. If they EM (including things in the visible wavelength), you would not be able to see them and vice versa. That means coherent photon based emissions of sufficient strength would cut them. If they blocked gas, you wouldn't be able to hear them and vice versa (vibrations in the air). That opens venues for caustic aerosol based chemicals or incendiaries. Physical matter is obvious because they need to interact with it and again, vice versa. Answer, bullets, barring that, chainsaws, falling pillars, etc, etc.

You can make all the excuses you want, but these are pretty much set down by the visible evidence of the shows.

If Borg shields become capable of blocking out all electromagnetic radiation, they become unable to see and become invisible.

If Borg shields become capable of blocking out gas interactions, they wouldn't be able to hear, or speak.

If Borg shields become capable of blocking out matter interactions, well, they wouldn't be able to lay a finger on you, literally.

[/physics nitpick]


For that matter, what makes you think they can do it everywhere? The Empire doesn't control every single planet in the entire galaxy, after all.

Given that the only planets the Borg seem interested in are populated ones, and that it seems unlikely that any technologically advanced one would be outside of Empire control, populated backwaters would be culled as a matter of policy.

From a SW fanboy, I'd have to say that the Borg would easily rape the SW Empire.
It only takes a single modded pirate ship to be assimilated for the Borg to have the shielding, laser, and most importantly hyperspace technology of SW ships. This could be done without ever meeting with the Empire at all. Once they get their hands on an ion cannon (eats through shields) and interdictor technology (blocking hyperspace travel), it's Game Over.

As previously mentioned, ST ships are able to combat the enemy at speeds above the speed of light. This would mean the Borg have all the time in the world to adapt to whatever they are fighting, with little to no risk of being defeated in a space battle. The ridiculous scale of the SW universe doesn't completely screw over the Borg, because they adopt it as their own.

The only hope I see for the SW Empire is if somehow a Force-user can manipulate the Borg into destroying themselves. That question I think can go either way: Would a hive mind be considered extremely resistant, or extremely vulnerable, to the Force?

Now, the Borg vs. the Yuuzhan Vong...that would be interesting.

Still, the Borg aren't as easily handled as you think. If they bring the full force of the Collective down on the Empire, the Empire would probably be very hard pressed to stop them, and every loss means more Borg to face.

I honestly don't see how the Empire could win unless they're simply that much more technologically advanced than the Borg, and we really don't see any evidence either way on that score. (Except for aforementioned outrageous source borks.)

From a SW fanboy, I'd have to say that the Borg would easily rape the SW Empire.
It only takes a single modded pirate ship to be assimilated for the Borg to have the shielding, laser, and most importantly hyperspace technology of SW ships. This could be done without ever meeting with the Empire at all. Once they get their hands on an ion cannon (eats through shields) and interdictor technology (blocking hyperspace travel), it's Game Over.

As previously mentioned, ST ships are able to combat the enemy at speeds above the speed of light. This would mean the Borg have all the time in the world to adapt to whatever they are fighting, with little to no risk of being defeated in a space battle. The ridiculous scale of the SW universe doesn't completely screw over the Borg, because they adopt it as their own.

The only hope I see for the SW Empire is if somehow a Force-user can manipulate the Borg into destroying themselves. That question I think can go either way: Would a hive mind be considered extremely resistant, or extremely vulnerable, to the Force?

Now, the Borg vs. the Yuuzhan Vong...that would be interesting.

That last might be a similar case to 8472. Both use biological technology.

If Borg shields become capable of blocking out all electromagnetic radiation, they become unable to see and become invisible.

This is just false. Basic shields in Star Trek block out EM radiation (eg. gamma rays), but people can still look out the window just fine. Sufficient refutal to this argument I believe.

If Borg shields become capable of blocking out gas interactions, they wouldn't be able to hear, or speak.

And they need neither. The Borg can function in a vacuum (First Contact). The Borg have never been seen talking to eachother, because they are connected in some way not really explained in the show as far as I know. Probably by subspace radio or something.

If Borg shields become capable of blocking out matter interactions, well, they wouldn't be able to lay a finger on you, literally.

The Borg held their own against Data in a bare-hand fight. What makes you think a stormtrooper could stand in a fist fight against a Borg then? Physical weapons might be effective against them, but since the Star Wars universe consists entirely of "laser" style weapons. How long do you think it would take for the empire to close down all of its manufacturing plants, design effective, cheap physical weapons, start them in mass production, and distribute them throughout their entire galaxy-sized empire? By the time every stormtrooper has a machine gun or something like that, the Borg will have assimilated the galaxy twice over.

Given that the only planets the Borg seem interested in are populated ones, and that it seems unlikely that any technologically advanced one would be outside of Empire control, populated backwaters would be culled as a matter of policy.

By the time the Empire realises that the Borg can only be defeated with mass genocide, they will have assimilated too many planets, and have their foot too deep in the galaxy. Again, all they need is to assimilate a few stormtroopers and officers, and they will know all they need about the empire to defeat them. Just assimilating Tattooine will tell them how to defeat the empire. Hell, one star destroyer will do.

In either case, Borg shields do not block the following. Electromagnetic radiation, gas and physical matter. If they EM (including things in the visible wavelength), you would not be able to see them and vice versa. That means coherent photon based emissions of sufficient strength would cut them. If they blocked gas, you wouldn't be able to hear them and vice versa (vibrations in the air). That opens venues for caustic aerosol based chemicals or incendiaries. Physical matter is obvious because they need to interact with it and again, vice versa. Answer, bullets, barring that, chainsaws, falling pillars, etc, etc.

You can make all the excuses you want, but these are pretty much set down by the visible evidence of the shows.
You mean like Worf and Data physically bouncing off of them and the very visible distortion they create when activated?

That has been shown on the shows after all.

If Borg shields become capable of blocking out all electromagnetic radiation, they become unable to see and become invisible.

If Borg shields become capable of blocking out gas interactions, they wouldn't be able to hear, or speak.

If Borg shields become capable of blocking out matter interactions, well, they wouldn't be able to lay a finger on you, literally.

[/physics nitpick]
All of these have one tiny little problem, they assume that the Borg have their shields raised all the bloody time! Nothing has shown that this is the case.

Scenario 1: Star wars would win, the ships are just more powerful, the technology is more advanced, they've been space faring for thousands of years, star trek for hundreds.

Also, Q is pretty much discredited in this argument because he has no reason to help the star trek universe, he would rather sit back and watch the squabble with pleasure instead of actually getting involved. It's not as if the empire/jedi are actually a threat to the Q.

Scenario 2: Empire would win, again, the ships are just that much more advanced.

That last might be a similar case to 8472. Both use biological technology.

Not necessarily. The thing about Species 8472 is that their biology was so alien that the nanotechnology of the Borg couldn't do a thing to them, so they couldn't be assimilated.

Now, the Yuuzhan Vong MIGHT be the same way, but there's no way to know for sure.

...

Wait, what's the Yuuzhan Vong? I've never heard of it.

Not necessarily. The thing about Species 8472 is that their biology was so alien that the nanotechnology of the Borg couldn't do a thing to them, so they couldn't be assimilated.

Now, the Yuuzhan Vong MIGHT be the same way, but there's no way to know for sure.

...

Wait, what's the Yuuzhan Vong? I've never heard of it.

They're a strange extra-galactic species in the EU that invades the galaxy long after the events in the main trilogy. All their technology is biological and they cannot be sensed through the force as with all other sentients. I forget what the Galactic government was being called at that time, but basically the Yuuzhon Vong crush all forces sent to stop them and end up taking Corsuscant. They're eventually defeated because of their rigid caste system that the Jedi sow discord in, IIRC. They also use virus weapons. I read a bit about them online, but haven't actually read the books that feature them. They for some reason think that traditional, mechanical, non-living technology is evil and should therefore be destroyed.

By the time the Empire realises that the Borg can only be defeated with mass genocide, they will have assimilated too many planets, and have their foot too deep in the galaxy. Again, all they need is to assimilate a few stormtroopers and officers, and they will know all they need about the empire to defeat them. Just assimilating Tattooine will tell them how to defeat the empire. Hell, one star destroyer will do.

From the way it seems, the complement of a star destroyer might actually be larger than the population of Tatooine.

Also, aren't concussion missiles and proton torpedos physical as well as energy weapons?

They're a strange extra-galactic species in the EU that invades the galaxy long after the events in the main trilogy. All their technology is biological and they cannot be sensed through the force as with all other sentients. I forget what the Galactic government was being called at that time, but basically the Yuuzhon Vong crush all forces sent to stop them and end up taking Corsuscant. They're eventually defeated because of their rigid caste system that the Jedi sow discord in, IIRC. They also use virus weapons. I read a bit about them online, but haven't actually read the books that feature them. They for some reason think that traditional, mechanical, non-living technology is evil and should therefore be destroyed.
Hmm...wonder why they can't be detected through the Force...might be enough to let them pull an 8472.
From the way it seems, the complement of a star destroyer might actually be larger than the population of Tatooine.

Also, aren't concussion missiles and proton torpedos physical as well as energy weapons?

Yes, but so are photon torpedoes. Star Trek shields have never really been shown to be completely penetrable to physical objects anymore so than energy.

Hmm...wonder why they can't be detected through the Force...might be enough to let them pull an 8472.
Apparently they were strange enough to overrun basically everything and everyone in their path, so maybe. They strike me as being somewhat similar in concept.

Yes, but so are photon torpedoes. Star Trek shields have never really been shown to be completely penetrable to physical objects anymore so than energy.
I always thought concussion missiles were heavier, well, whatever.

I suppose the star destroyers could always resort to ramming. It would seem like they'd come off the better in such an action, penetrating the flat sides of Borg cubes with their very pointy fronts. It would be kinda hilarious, really.

Wait, what's the Yuuzhan Vong? I've never heard of it.
The Star Wars version of 8472, which is actually what they've been called since they seemed to be a direct rip off.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong

Apparently they were strange enough to overrun basically everything and everyone in their path, so maybe. They strike me as being somewhat similar in concept.


I always thought concussion missiles were heavier, well, whatever.

I suppose the star destroyers could always resort to ramming. It would seem like they'd come off the better in such an action, penetrating the flat sides of Borg cubes with their very pointy fronts. It would be kinda hilarious, really.

Lulz.

Especially if someone whisked up a Photoshop making a bow and arrow of Star Destroyers.

NERVUN: I see...

Yes, but so are photon torpedoes. Star Trek shields have never really been shown to be completely penetrable to physical objects anymore so than energy.

In a particular episode of TNG where Ro Laren ends up joining the Maquis, we see that she needed to navigate a particular way to get a shuttlecraft through the shields of the Enterprise. A simple concussion missile is much smaller than a two-man shuttlecraft, and would not penetrate the shields of a Galaxy Class starship. Since the Borg have assimilated Federation technology, they have access to the same shielding technology, and their ships can therefore survive concussion missiles and proton torpedos without so much as a scratch.

This is just false. Basic shields in Star Trek block out EM radiation (eg. gamma rays), but people can still look out the window just fine. Sufficient refutal to this argument I believe.


The full gamut of EM radiation also includes the visible spectrum of light. If you can see out the window and see beyond the shield and vice versa, it does not block all forms of EM radiation.

Claiming that it does, against visible evidence, is simply wrong, and requires the strong use of magic handwavium.


And they need neither. The Borg can function in a vacuum (First Contact). The Borg have never been seen talking to eachother, because they are connected in some way not really explained in the show as far as I know. Probably by subspace radio or something.

Locutus and the Borg Queen spoke. They used their mouths. People could hear them. That means interaction with air molecules.

So... caustic aerosols. Or barring that, flooding the infected zones with high temperature plasma will do nicely. You'll gut a portion of the ship and kill the crew there, but you'll still keep the ship.


The Borg held their own against Data in a bare-hand fight. What makes you think a stormtrooper could stand in a fist fight against a Borg then? Physical weapons might be effective against them, but since the Star Wars universe consists entirely of "laser" style weapons.


Hmmm... no (http://www.collectorsgalleryonline.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/mrthermaldetonator.jpg).


How long do you think it would take for the empire to close down all of its manufacturing plants, design effective, cheap physical weapons, start them in mass production, and distribute them throughout their entire galaxy-sized empire?

Less time than the years it took for the Federation to at least try out cheap physical weapons against the Borg as a field test.

Which was never.


By the time every stormtrooper has a machine gun or something like that, the Borg will have assimilated the galaxy twice over.

This is simply an unproven assertion that relies strongly on "they can because I say so." Really it does. We have no strong evidence with which to determine how quickly the Empire can raise and outfit an army, although the existence of a galactic scale clone army a few short years after the idea was floated seems to indicate that they can do so in a hurry.


By the time the Empire realises that the Borg can only be defeated with mass genocide, they will have assimilated too many planets, and have their foot too deep in the galaxy.

Hmmm, I'd say... probably not. Which is just as valid a statement as yours I guess.


Again, all they need is to assimilate a few stormtroopers and officers, and they will know all they need about the empire to defeat them.


From a current technological standard standpoint, maybe. But clearly not from a tactical and strategic standpoint. Otherwise, Picard and the assorted Federation continuations would have not won any single engagement with the Borg ever.

I find it interesting that you're not willing to entertain the same thought about the other side of the debate.


Just assimilating Tattooine will tell them how to defeat the empire.

Only if they had gotten Luke. :p

You mean like Worf and Data physically bouncing off of them and the very visible distortion they create when activated?

So Worf cutting a Borg up is a fluke and Picard telling his crew to go hand to hand when phasers fail is him basically telling them to commit suicide...


All of these have one tiny little problem, they assume that the Borg have their shields raised all the bloody time! Nothing has shown that this is the case.

Of course they don't have to have it on all the time, but if and when they do turn it on, they don't disappear, not even the part that is hit, when the beam hits them. That tells us that at the very least, the shield does not block the entire spectrum of EM radiation.

Although the statements regarding a single drone being all that is necessary to restart the collective is a bit... shall we say, odd? We see at least two queens amongst the Borg, and both had absolute authority over the ones they commanded to the point of the Borg not carrying out immediate and total assimilation of threats when they deemed it fit.

That does seem to imply some sort of command structure.

Another being a very much simpler question. The Borg are technologically based. This means they are technologically connected to one another. They cannot be a collective if they cannot communicate, and Hugo (I think that was his name), a former Borg, told of Borg simply shutting down and starving to death once they were cut of from the collective.

Which means that without rehabilitation, wouldn't single drones just die off? Not to mention the implications of a wide area jammer that would disrupt communications between the Borg. It doesn't even have to be adaptation proof. Individual Borg without the collective backing them can't adapt it seems, no initiative remember, so it only has to work just once, and long enough for them all to be dealt with.

Scenario ZERO:
The good guys win.

Scenario ZERO:
The good guys win.

Actually, they don't. Since they belong to two totally different universes and galaxies, it's entirely possible that the SW galaxy is actually composed of antimatter (yes, you can have an anti version of any known element, they just need to be faaaar away from matter, like another galaxy).

So the two meet each other and completely annihilate one another.

Everyone loses. Yay!

Locutus and the Borg Queen spoke. They used their mouths. People could hear them. That means interaction with air molecules.
And there were numerous times when the Borg spoke without moving their mouths, or indeed, having a single speaker (We are the Borg). It has been well established that the Borg communicate with each other via subspace. Given that they act as one without anyone shouting orders shows this. They don't need air.

So Worf cutting a Borg up is a fluke
Ya know, we have answered this over, and over, and over, and over, and over again in this thread. Ignoring the answer won't make it go away.

and Picard telling his crew to go hand to hand when phasers fail is him basically telling them to commit suicide...
Given at the time Captain Picard was channeling Captain Ahab...

Of course they don't have to have it on all the time, but if and when they do turn it on, they don't disappear, not even the part that is hit, when the beam hits them. That tells us that at the very least, the shield does not block the entire spectrum of EM radiation.
So it lets light though... unless you want to backtrack that SW's lasers aren't really lasers, that doesn't mean much. Since SW ships don't disappear either, I can assume that they also don't block everything so transporters will go through as well.

Although the statements regarding a single drone being all that is necessary to restart the collective is a bit... shall we say, odd? We see at least two queens amongst the Borg, and both had absolute authority over the ones they commanded to the point of the Borg not carrying out immediate and total assimilation of threats when they deemed it fit.

That does seem to imply some sort of command structure.
We're also seen both queens killed with no problems for the Borg, unlike the Empire who lost it when Pappy was killed. They don't have a command structure, something stated numerous times.

Another being a very much simpler question. The Borg are technologically based. This means they are technologically connected to one another. They cannot be a collective if they cannot communicate, and Hugo (I think that was his name), a former Borg, told of Borg simply shutting down and starving to death once they were cut of from the collective.

Which means that without rehabilitation, wouldn't single drones just die off? Not to mention the implications of a wide area jammer that would disrupt communications between the Borg. It doesn't even have to be adaptation proof. Individual Borg without the collective backing them can't adapt it seems, no initiative remember, so it only has to work just once, and long enough for them all to be dealt with.
That was Hugh, and the effects of being removed from the collective vary depending on the circumstance. In any case, you'd have to "jam" subspace and quite possibly transwarp for that to happen, something that it quite honestly out of the technological reach of BOTH galaxies.

And there were numerous times when the Borg spoke without moving their mouths, or indeed, having a single speaker (We are the Borg). It has been well established that the Borg communicate with each other via subspace. Given that they act as one without anyone shouting orders shows this. They don't need air.


I never said anything about needing air. I just said that they do interact with it. And that means you can use caustic gases or other aerosol based exotics.


Ya know, we have answered this over, and over, and over, and over, and over again in this thread. Ignoring the answer won't make it go away.


So here's the $5 question. If they already had physical matter shields, why weren't they working in First Contact?


Given at the time Captain Picard was channeling Captain Ahab...


Maybe.


So it lets light though... unless you want to backtrack that SW's lasers aren't really lasers, that doesn't mean much.

No, but I do want to establish a baseline of what they can and can't do. Borg shields that is.


Since SW ships don't disappear either, I can assume that they also don't block everything so transporters will go through as well.


Transporter beams are EM radiation now?


We're also seen both queens killed with no problems for the Borg, unlike the Empire who lost it when Pappy was killed.


The first one doesn't exactly count, since the queen was out of time, and without means of connecting to the larger collective without a signal dish.

The second one, well, we already know there's more than one queen, and they keep a stock of command type units on hand (7 of 9).


They don't have a command structure, something stated numerous times.


One seemed to have more than sufficient authority to make the Borg commit suicide at whim by the hundreds of thousands. If that is not a command structure, what is it?


That was Hugh, and the effects of being removed from the collective vary depending on the circumstance. In any case, you'd have to "jam" subspace and quite possibly transwarp for that to happen, something that it quite honestly out of the technological reach of BOTH galaxies.

Although to be fair, subspace and transwarp operate by the rules of ST, not necessarily SW. An equal argument really, to the more exotic technologies of SW to ST.

So the Borg might be entirely without such means in an SW universe, and an Empire incursion to the ST world may find themselves without much of their relied upon technology.

This assumes the Borg can find enough parts of an intact biological to assimilate. They're not going to find that when the biologicals commonly explode in their faces when attempting assimilation.

This only works if Borg limit themselves to assimilating ONLY combatants. Unless you envision the Empire forcing every man, woman, child and thing into explosive vests. (And 24/7, no less).

No, but I do want to establish a baseline of what they can and can't do. Borg shields that is.

Thing is, they adapt to do what they need to do. You can't say what Borg shields can and can't do, because over time, with more assimilated technologies, the shields improve to do more. Once the Borg assimilate just one Imperial engineer, they know how Imperial shields work, and can quickly adapt this knowledge to their own shields, whilst finding ways to breach Imperial shields with transporter beams. Assimilate one stormtrooper, and they can find ways to bypass stormtrooper armor.

Again, the Borg have the advantage of assimilation. The Empire does not. The Empire will be scratching their heads as to how to deal with the Borg, concluding that genocide is the best way to do it. But by the time the Empire finally encounters the Borg beyond occasional skirmishes, the Borg will know all they need to know to destroy them.

So here's the $5 question. If they already had physical matter shields, why weren't they working in First Contact?

Star Trek shields have been demonstrated to resist kinetic energy - such as the time the USS Jenolan used its shields to hold open the doors of the Dyson Sphere to allow the Enterprise to escape in Relics. Borg shields tend to be more sophisticated than those of the Federation, and they've assimilated Federation personnel and technology from that era previously, so it stands to reason that they also have that capability.

Why the drones in First Contact weren't using them can be explained away as a continuity error in real life, but from an in-universe perspective? We can only make assumptions. Either drones don't utilise that technology for one reason or another (perhaps because the mobile shield generators are too small, or perhaps because the Borg feel that drones are sufficiently armoured to withstand any sort of kinetic attack they are reasonably expected to encounter - after all, they don't assimilate primitive civilisations who might still use projectile weapons).

My particular favourite explanation is that their shields simply weren't configured for that particular form of attack. Much like they adjust their shield modulation in response to certain energy weapon frequencies, perhaps each type of kinetic attack needs a similar adjustment to be made. For example, if you were to shoot them with an M16 and they adapt, perhaps a Thompson and its different calibre and muzzle velocity might not be accommodated for until they encounter it. Had more than two drones been killed by that weapon one might assume that the remaining drones would eventually adapt, but as the Thompson was discarded after that we have no way of knowing.

As for Data snapping their necks and suchlike, it's logical to assume that they only protect against impacts above a certain velocity, otherwise they'd never be able to touch anything without their shields going off. That'd make building super-hyper-mega-ultra-plexing beacon thingies difficult.

Then again, it's all assumptions and my velocity thing completely contradicts the paragraph above. Consistency has never been one of Star Trek's strong points. Perhaps that's how the Federation would win? By trapping Star Wars in their endless hypocrisy and paradoxes until they all explode or commit suicide?

This conversation depends on a great deal of factors. However, I do believe the Star Trek universe operates at a much higher technology level that the Star Wars universe. Case in point-back in the original Star Trek series, the Enterprise was stated as being capable of destroying a planet-whether by continuous bombardment or one shot wasn't stated. The Death Star proved it's power in the original movie by destroying a planet, implying other ships couldn't do the same. The Empire's use of lasers was once mocked by Ensign Checkov as not getting past the base debris fields of the Enterprise.
The Star Trek series had a panoply of god-like beings who regularily intervened in the affairs of the younger species-the Orions who forced a Cold War scenario on the Federation and the Klingon Empire, the aliens who forced Kirk to fight the Gorn, the Squire of Gothos, the Q, the Telosian illusion-casters, those silicon-based entities who forced Kirk to fight Klingons, each side backstopped by good or evil robots, the odd Andromedans who employed "magic" to achieve their ends, the Elder Race who survived in globes, Apollo....(the list goes on)
The Death Star was the Empire's "ultimate weapon", but we know nothing about it, really. If it could recharge it's guns faster than a Federation engineer could spew out a stream of gobbledygook that passes for Science in the ST universe, it might stand a chance, but I'd go with Trek winning.
As far as bringing the Borg in, I remember the first encounter with the Borg, where they were technological scavengers who found nothing on the Enterprise worth their time-I'd put most SW tech in this category. The whole assimilation nonsense came about when unimaginative writers wanted a new, bigger threat.
I think it would boil down to writers-and Star Trek is worth watching about 50% of the time with the original series, perhaps 20% in later incarnations, while Star Wars only had the original movie prior to Lucas's "enhancements", resulting in a 1/6 ratio, so Star Trek wins.
Either the Daleks or the Shadow would mop both.

Thing is, they adapt to do what they need to do.


So against species 8472, they needed to fail hard? There are limits.


Once the Borg assimilate just one Imperial engineer, they know how Imperial shields work, and can quickly adapt this knowledge to their own shields, whilst finding ways to breach Imperial shields with transporter beams.

Because in the distant past of a galaxy far far away, there's only one type of engineer, and they are all masters of their fields...


But by the time the Empire finally encounters the Borg beyond occasional skirmishes, the Borg will know all they need to know to destroy them.

And that's why the Borg utterly crushed the Federation the moment Picard was assimilated.

Oh wait...

Scenario 1: Star wars would win, the ships are just more powerful, the technology is more advanced, they've been space faring for thousands of years, star trek for hundreds.

Also, Q is pretty much discredited in this argument because he has no reason to help the star trek universe, he would rather sit back and watch the squabble with pleasure instead of actually getting involved. It's not as if the empire/jedi are actually a threat to the Q.

Scenario 2: Empire would win, again, the ships are just that much more advanced.
Q is picard's personal fanboy of sorts, he'd help seeing as the Empire is invading "his" galaxy.

In regards to cloaking devices, cloaks in SW blind the user while cloaks in ST allow the cloaked ship to see, maneuver, and even transport while hidden. In fact, in TNG Picard and Data are ferried to Romulus aboard a Klingon Bird-of-Prey and repeatedly transported back and forth. The Klingon cloaking tech is good enough that they can stay in orbit of the Capital of the Romulan Empire and transport spies without being detected. Mind you, the Romulans invented cloaking tech and are known for being extremely paranoid. This shows that a cloaked ship can transport virtually undetected. Voyager shows us that a torpedo can do massive damage when transported aboard a ship. Add those two things together and you have Star Destroyers with exploding bridges, unless of course they have the resources to keep their shields up at absolutely all times.

This only works if Borg limit themselves to assimilating ONLY combatants. Unless you envision the Empire forcing every man, woman, child and thing into explosive vests. (And 24/7, no less).

No, that's only for frontline troops. Planets are likely to get fail deadly devices powerful enough to slag the surface and triggered when there's fear of the planet being overrun.

Q is picard's personal fanboy of sorts, he'd help seeing as the Empire is invading "his" galaxy.

Seeing as how Q went about declaring the end of humanity and all life in that bit of the galaxy not once, but twice, it's far more likely he would have brought in the Empire himself for his personal amusement. He's just that sort of person.


In regards to cloaking devices, cloaks in SW blind the user


And you know this... how?

In either case, that's not cloaking. It's called jamming.

And that's why the Borg utterly crushed the Federation the moment Picard was assimilated.

Oh wait...

Well - a single cube did effortlessly eradicate a significant part of the fleet..

Jammers only work against active scanning, most scanning in Trek appears to be passive.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cloaking_device
that's my cloak source
Q repeatedly states that he has grown fond of humanity. Even forcing the contact with the Borg so the Federation will temper their exploration to their weapon's manufacture. (possibly a reason why voyager was so over-armed).

I wonder if a borg could adapt to a lightsaber? Or even the force?

I wonder if a borg could adapt to a lightsaber? Or even the force?

Jedi C3PO? Dis.tur.bing.:eek2:

I wonder if a borg could adapt to a lightsaber? Or even the force?

A lightsaber ? Probably.

The force.. slightly harder. Then again, Trek has shown many races with significant psi powers. Unless their quadrant was uncharacteristically devoid of them, the Borg seem to have assimilated them nevertheless.

Jedi C3PO? Dis.tur.bing.:eek2:

Oh dear... *Explodes*

As for Data snapping their necks and suchlike, it's logical to assume that they only protect against impacts above a certain velocity, otherwise they'd never be able to touch anything without their shields going off.

That's the same basic principle as in Dune, I seem to recall.

And that's why the Borg utterly crushed the Federation the moment Picard was assimilated.

Oh wait...

But, they could have. The fact that only one Borg ship was sent suggests it wasn't a real incursion. Somewhere between reconnaisance and a raid, probably.

And, even with just that token force, they actually DID win, destroying the entire Federation - and would have got away with it if it wasn't for some gnarly intervention from Picard and his buddies.

No, that's only for frontline troops. Planets are likely to get fail deadly devices powerful enough to slag the surface and triggered when there's fear of the planet being overrun.


And what, Hutt will just let Empire troops wander in and boobytrap their planet?

The problem is - aside from internal resistance from people who - for some reason - dont want to explode... Borg growth is exponential and the Empire can only really react in a linear expansion.

e.g. Build and plant bomb device, relocate troops to form new frontline, defend, detonate. Next planet. Borg can hit the frontier at one point, with only one ship... and leave with two, or ten, or thousands... each of which can target a new world. And each time Borg drones land, each one needs basically only to touch resistance, and it becomes part of the attack.

The VERY best that the Empire could hope for, against Borg, would be some kind of stalemate.

Jammers only work against active scanning, most scanning in Trek appears to be passive.


Most space based scanning would normally take place in passive mode anyway. That is, if you were looking for starships and other anomalies. Starships, stars, planets, they all give off signatures you can pick up with passive scanning. Generally thermal energy in most case. Even an asteroid will give some thermal returns off reflected sunlight. Active scanning on the other hand, is needed for things that don't give off the usual signatures. Dead ships for example, which aren't generating power and aren't giving off any heat. Another being ice asteroids too far from stars to pick up enough light to show up on optical and thermal scans.


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cloaking_device
that's my cloak source


Which also says:

The "double-blind" does not appear to apply to personal cloaking devices, or to (at least) the one on GOTO's yacht.

Since we never actually see a cloaking device in use in the movies, that opens us up to the next avenue of materials. That also leads us to the TIE Phantom series, cloak capable fighters that did not suffer the double blind problem.

So, that puts us in a bit of a fix no?


Q repeatedly states that he has grown fond of humanity. Even forcing the contact with the Borg so the Federation will temper their exploration to their weapon's manufacture. (possibly a reason why voyager was so over-armed).

So why not let the Empire and the Federation go at it hammer and tongs then? They're both human majorities, and constant conflict will see each side coming up with bigger and better weapons.

A lightsaber ? Probably.

The force.. slightly harder. Then again, Trek has shown many races with significant psi powers. Unless their quadrant was uncharacteristically devoid of them, the Borg seem to have assimilated them nevertheless.

The Borg have never shown aversion to assimilating anyone. They'd assimilate 8472, if they could. And - since George Lucas decided to basically make The Force a blood disorder, it seems entirely likely that the Borg would seek out, assimilate, and use Jedi/Sith.

Not to mention that borg construct birthing chambers. Baby borg have been seen before. That means that they do not require hosts to grow in number.

And what, Hutt will just let Empire troops wander in and boobytrap their planet?

Let? Let??

And do they really need to know anyway?


Borg growth is exponential and the Empire can only really react in a linear expansion.

Depends on whether the Empire can, surprise surprise, adapt to the Borg.

That being said, I seem to recall Data stating with some confidence that attempts to assimilate him would fail. Now why is that?

Is it because he lacks organic components, and thus not susceptible? Or is it because of something else?

If it is simply because he is an advanced robot, then would not a droid army suffice?


e.g. Build and plant bomb device, relocate troops to form new frontline, defend, detonate. Next planet. Borg can hit the frontier at one point, with only one ship... and leave with two, or ten, or thousands... each of which can target a new world. And each time Borg drones land, each one needs basically only to touch resistance, and it becomes part of the attack.


That never did make sense to me. Ships aren't magically created from thin air. And even an army of santa's elves would be hard pressed to create one small seagoing capital ship without all the infrastructure and tools in place necessary to build it. How would a massive Borg cube be constructed on a frontier world that does not have the resources to actually support the construction of one?

Unless of course, the Borg casually violate several laws of thermodynamics and can magic up materials and energy out of thin air.

In which case, they don't need to assimilate anything. They could magic more of themselves up.


The VERY best that the Empire could hope for, against Borg, would be some kind of stalemate.

Maybe, maybe not. It would depend if there are any surprise developments. If the Empire develops a method of cutting off communications between all Borg drones, even if it's just in a local area, they win. Without the collective driving the Borg, they all become fixed in existing routines, and unable to analyze and adapt to anything new.

After that, it's a question of expanding gains made with that technology until the Borg are wiped out wholesale.

Of course uploading the equivalent of MyDoom or Sasser to the collective also works.

Oh yeah, and Star Trek also has Q.

But, they could have. The fact that only one Borg ship was sent suggests it wasn't a real incursion. Somewhere between reconnaisance and a raid, probably.

And, even with just that token force, they actually DID win, destroying the entire Federation - and would have got away with it if it wasn't for some gnarly intervention from Picard and his buddies.

Which doesn't explain why they had to do something so convoluted like traveling back in time to wipe out humanity when they could just toss a few more ships and have done with it there and then.

The add in this thread is about Star Wars costumes. LMAO!:D

Star Wars loses. You know why ? because neither the empire or the rebellion was smart enough to put the generators for really good shields inside the shields themselves.

Let? Let??


Yes, let. Why are areas like Mos Eisley not under direct Imperial control? Because it's a pain in the ass to try and take and hold the whole universe. Hutt (and others) are willing to go along with the Empire, because it's not inconvenient not to.

If the Empire started running around doomsday-bombing worlds, I don't think Hutt (or others) would just sit back - and then the Empire has two wars on their hands.


And do they really need to know anyway?


Unless you think they're all stupid?


Depends on whether the Empire can, surprise surprise, adapt to the Borg.


Doesn't matter. The Borg adapt - it's what they do. If you adapt to the Borg - even if you could - they adapt right back.


That being said, I seem to recall Data stating with some confidence that attempts to assimilate him would fail. Now why is that?


Because he's a mechanical, so you can't just assimilate him with nanotech. But even by the end of that movie, the Borg were working an answer to that little problem.


Is it because he lacks organic components, and thus not susceptible? Or is it because of something else?


Yes - because he lacks organic components... but, like I said, they adapted a cure to that little problem.


If it is simply because he is an advanced robot, then would not a droid army suffice?


A droid army would be the best bet, short of something like 8472... but even droids aren't immune to the Borg's assimilation technology - they just would have to 'prep' them, first.

Not to mention - blowing the shit out of droids is also surprisingly effective.

But - were back again to production - the Empire is limited to it's maximum production quota, whatever that may be, while Borg production increases with every civilian they encounter.


That never did make sense to me. Ships aren't magically created from thin air. And even an army of santa's elves would be hard pressed to create one small seagoing capital ship without all the infrastructure and tools in place necessary to build it. How would a massive Borg cube be constructed on a frontier world that does not have the resources to actually support the construction of one?


We've seen how quick Borg adapt before - it doesnt take them long, at all, to adapt Federation etchnology to Borg technology. Like... minutes to convert a cargo-hold into Borg cubicles, etc.

It's not hard to imagine them converting a town - even on a backwards world like Tatooine - into a Borg production plant in hours - or less. Spacecraft - even faster, probably - with all that heavy machinery already to hand.


Unless of course, the Borg casually violate several laws of thermodynamics and can magic up materials and energy out of thin air.

In which case, they don't need to assimilate anything. They could magic more of themselves up.


There are clues that suggest they can... not by 'magic', but by technology.


Maybe, maybe not. It would depend if there are any surprise developments. If the Empire develops a method of cutting off communications between all Borg drones, even if it's just in a local area, they win. Without the collective driving the Borg, they all become fixed in existing routines, and unable to analyze and adapt to anything new.


Again, the clues suggest otherwise. Isolated groups subsist, or attempt to join other groups. Isolated individuals have varied responses... there's no guarantee that cutting off areas of the Borg would really affect their progress, even if it was possible -0 which is not certain.


After that, it's a question of expanding gains made with that technology until the Borg are wiped out wholesale.


Another leap of faith - how DO you 'wipe out the Borg'? All it takes is one Borg...


Of course uploading the equivalent of MyDoom or Sasser to the collective also works.

Maybe. On the technological component. Maybe, once.

Which doesn't explain why they had to do something so convoluted like traveling back in time to wipe out humanity when they could just toss a few more ships and have done with it there and then.

They didn't HAVE to... but since they were there, and they had the technology, why not? That's adaptation in action.

I wonder if a borg could adapt to a lightsaber? Or even the force?

I believe that characters in Star Trek would be affected by the Force in a way similar to the Yuuzhan Vong, who are also an extra-galactic race unaffected by the Force due to their lack of any connection to it. Thanks to stupid senile Lucas and his inclusion of midi-chlorians, the Jedi would only be able to use indirect Force attacks against troops from the 24th century Milky Way - such as lobbing boulders at them, or perhaps even Force Lightning. Being able to sense them, or use mind tricks on them, on the other hand, probably wouldn't work.

Regarding lightsabers, I imagine that they'd cut up Borg like tender steaks. Whether or not their shields could adapt to the energy of a lightsaber... I lean towards 'probably', but we don't know either way.

With all that said, I'd have to say Star Wars would ultimately win through sheer attrition if nothing else, though I don't think it would be nearly as one-sided as some Star Wars fans would like to believe (particularly the ones who frequent StarDestroyer.net).

I guess a more important question would be whether a lightsaber could block phasers or disrupters in the same way it blocks blasters. I can't recall a Jedi ever being tasked with blocking a beam weapon, much less reflecting it back - I'd think it'd be too hard, what with beams being able to move around at random whilst firing continuously, and phaser beams seem to reach their target without the same lengthy travel time that blaster bolts have.

I believe that characters in Star Trek would be affected by the Force in a way similar to the Yuuzhan Vong, who are also an extra-galactic race unaffected by the Force due to their lack of any connection to it. Thanks to stupid senile Lucas and his inclusion of midi-chlorians, the Jedi would only be able to use indirect Force attacks against troops from the 24th century Milky Way - such as lobbing boulders at them, or perhaps even Force Lightning. Being able to sense them, or use mind tricks on them, on the other hand, probably wouldn't work.

Dificult to say. I thought that it was generally assumed that the same things worked in either universe to make a fair debate. Other wise you could just say hyperdrive doesn't work in Trek or something, which would make the whole debate impossible. On the other hand, you have a point about midichlorians.

But keep in mind, even if they could'nt sense, say, a Vulcan, they could sense the impending danger as said Vulcan was about to shoot them, right? Isn't that how they block blasters?

Regarding lightsabers, I imagine that they'd cut up Borg like tender steaks. Whether or not their shields could adapt to the energy of a lightsaber... I lean towards 'probably', but we don't know either way.

Well, their's really nothing like a light saber in Trek, is their? The Borg have never had to deal with such a weapon before. But Borg sheilds have been known to fail against physical objects, which a light saber appears to be. Also, heat must get through those sheilds, and the primary effect of a light saber appears to be through thermal damage.

With all that said, I'd have to say Star Wars would ultimately win through sheer attrition if nothing else, though I don't think it would be nearly as one-sided as some Star Wars fans would like to believe (particularly the ones who frequent StarDestroyer.net).

Star Wars could win through superior logistics, numbers, and power generation, as long as timetravel and super beings don't influence the outcome.

I guess a more important question would be whether a lightsaber could block phasers or disrupters in the same way it blocks blasters. I can't recall a Jedi ever being tasked with blocking a beam weapon, much less reflecting it back - I'd think it'd be too hard, what with beams being able to move around at random whilst firing continuously.

They'd have to dodge against phaser pistols, and even then they'd have a problem. See, phasers have this little thing called a "wide beam setting".

Don't see why they couldn't block a pulse phaser rifel though, and I'm not familliar with the charicteristics of disruptors.

A lightsaber ? Probably.

The force.. slightly harder. Then again, Trek has shown many races with significant psi powers. Unless their quadrant was uncharacteristically devoid of them, the Borg seem to have assimilated them nevertheless.

They might assimallate their bodies without their powers carrying over. Would such abillities in a drone be deemed threatening to the collective, with its lack of individuality?

Odds are a borg-ified jedi would probably not only keep it's powers (midichlorians and memories) but also the borg would start work on generating massive midichlorian counts in all it's drones. It seems midichlorian counts=power and any Borg-related eugenics that could increase midichlorian count would probably be put into effect. The Borg seek perfection in all things, the power of a jedi would be one step closer to their goal.

Well, their's really nothing like a light saber in Trek, is their? Th

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWanticsabre.html

Dificult to say. I thought that it was generally assumed that the same things worked in either universe to make a fair debate. Other wise you could just say hyperdrive doesn't work in Trek or something, which would make the whole debate impossible. On the other hand, you have a point about midichlorians.

You're probably right. I'm over-thinking things... still makes you wonder, though.

But keep in mind, even if they could'nt sense, say, a Vulcan, they could sense the impending danger as said Vulcan was about to shoot them, right? Isn't that how they block blasters?

You're right on that one. Jedi can sense dangers from inanimate objects as much as people, as a form of precognition, so even the Borg, having no malice ill intent towards the Jedi but simply following programmed directives, would probably show up on their 'Forcedar' as dangerous.

Well, their's really nothing like a light saber in Trek, is their? The Borg have never had to deal with such a weapon before. But Borg sheilds have been known to fail against physical objects, which a light saber appears to be. Also, heat must get through those sheilds, and the primary effect of a light saber appears to be through thermal damage.

I don't know. If lightsaber blades really are just 'pure energy' (whatever that means) as they're often described, I don't really see any reason why a Borg drone's shield couldn't adapt to them any less efficiently than it could adapt to a typical, run-of-the-mill energy weapon.

To find out we'd have to capture a few drones and stick them in a room with some Jedi, to see what happens, I guess.

Relating to the Borg, I wonder if a Jedi could slow or even halt the effects of a nanoprobe infestation after an assimilation attempt? Assuming the Force continued to work the same way in the Milky Way galaxy, obviously.

Star Wars could win through superior logistics, numbers, and power generation, as long as timetravel and super beings don't influence the outcome.

Pretty much. I don't think even more advanced technology could keep a disunited Milky Way on the winning side for very long. Just the production output of the galaxy-spanning Empire alone would outpace them by an order of magnitude, and their much speedier FTL systems would give them a huge strategic advantage.

They'd have to dodge against phaser pistols, and even then they'd have a problem. See, phasers have this little thing called a "wide beam setting".

Don't see why they couldn't block a pulse phaser rifel though, and I'm not familliar with the charicteristics of disruptors.

I guess the modern phaser rifles seen in Nemesis could probably be deflected or at least blocked, though their shots still appear (to my untrained eyes at least) to travel faster than blaster bolts, so it might be a bit harder.

And I forgot about wide beam settings. That'd hurt.

You're probably right. I'm over-thinking things... still makes you wonder, though.



You're right on that one. Jedi can sense dangers from inanimate objects as much as people, as a form of precognition, so even the Borg, having no malice ill intent towards the Jedi but simply following programmed directives, would probably show up on their 'Forcedar' as dangerous.

To be fair, it is in no way fool proof. I think their's a chance they'd detect it, but its by no means a given. One explanation for how Clones got the drop on so many Jedi was that their lack of malice prevented the Jedi from sensing what was coming.

Perhaps they couldn't detect a Borg before it attacked. But once it started firing, they could block, if they survived those first couple of seconds.

I don't know. If lightsaber blades really are just 'pure energy' (whatever that means) as they're often described, I don't really see any reason why a Borg drone's shield couldn't adapt to them any less efficiently than it could adapt to a typical, run-of-the-mill energy weapon.

To find out we'd have to capture a few drones and stick them in a room with some Jedi, to see what happens, I guess.

More than a few. If their sabers stopped working, they would start using the Force to attack more directly. Though most Jedi are reluctant to use the Force agressively against a living being.

Relating to the Borg, I wonder if a Jedi could slow or even halt the effects of a nanoprobe infestation after an assimilation attempt? Assuming the Force continued to work the same way in the Milky Way galaxy, obviously.

In the Jedi Accademy Trilogy, I think its called, a Jedi healer cures the leader of the Republic after being poisoned by nanobots. This after all conventional treatments failed.

Pretty much. I don't think even more advanced technology could keep a disunited Milky Way on the winning side for very long. Just the production output of the galaxy-spanning Empire alone would outpace them by an order of magnitude, and their much speedier FTL systems would give them a huge strategic advantage.

25000 Star Destroyers, entire systems largely devoted to ship production, one estimate (I forget the source), that could put the total number of Imperial warships in the hundreds of millions.

I guess the modern phaser rifles seen in Nemesis could probably be deflected or at least blocked, though their shots still appear (to my untrained eyes at least) to travel faster than blaster bolts, so it might be a bit harder.

And I forgot about wide beam settings. That'd hurt.

Yes, the first Jedi who tries to block a phaser is in for a nasty shock.:D

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWanticsabre.html

Proves nothing. The link itself points out how we never actually see weather this thing can block.

Proves nothing. The link itself points out how we never actually see weather this thing can block.
I'm being a smartass, silly. :p (As is the page, mind.)

They might assimallate their bodies without their powers carrying over. Would such abillities in a drone be deemed threatening to the collective, with its lack of individuality?

Why would they?

Is 'having arms' considered a threat to the collective, with it's lack of individuality? It's just another characteristic of the species/kind being assimilated.

How would the Empire fare against Species 8472 I wonder? :D

Why would they?

Is 'having arms' considered a threat to the collective, with it's lack of individuality? It's just another characteristic of the species/kind being assimilated.

Still a question of weather the powers would carry over. Their are pleanty of species with psychic abillitites in Trek, yet we never see the Borg using such powers.

Why would they?

Is 'having arms' considered a threat to the collective, with it's lack of individuality? It's just another characteristic of the species/kind being assimilated.

I think perhaps the only problem is that, until midichloreans were spread into the genetic pool of every drone in the Collective, the Jedi/Sith Borg would be rather unique.

Not that that would truly be a big deal, but it might be interesting to see if the uniqueness is enough to cause tensions.

You're right on that one. Jedi can sense dangers from inanimate objects as much as people, as a form of precognition, so even the Borg, having no malice ill intent towards the Jedi but simply following programmed directives, would probably show up on their 'Forcedar' as dangerous.


I'm not convinced - Lucas talks about things like 'sensing a disturbance in The Force', and there's been the suggestion that The Force permeates everything - creature, person, rock... etc... but what about EXTRA-galactic entities?

Why would the Borg have The Force in them... or why would they channel, or otherwise disturb it?

It seems most logical to me that Jedi/Sith wouldn't be able to detect PURE extragalactic Borg, but might well be able to detect Borg assimilated WITHIN the confines of SW space.

Still a question of weather the powers would carry over. Their are pleanty of species with psychic abillitites in Trek, yet we never see the Borg using such powers.

There are also creatures that can breathe different atmospheres, yet we never see Borg doing so... just ebcause you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

It's not unreasonable to assume that you gain access to ALL the biological abilities of an entity when you assimilate it... and Lucas shot himself in the foot on that one, when he made The Force a parasite.

How would the Empire fare against Species 8472 I wonder? :D

In abillity to adapt wouldn't be a factor. The Empire would just open fire. However, 8472 has some decent weapons. They blew up a planet, after all. Not as spectacularily as the Death Star, and it took a group of ships, but they were much smaller ships.

One question: did that particular weapon destroy the planet through raw power, or some sort of chain reaction? If the latter, they might not be able to get through planetary sheilds.

In any case, unless the Empire can access fluidic space, 8472 doesn't have to worry about defending their space, and can just attack. In this case, the Empire might try infecting them with a bioweapon to take back home with them.

I think perhaps the only problem is that, until midichloreans were spread into the genetic pool of every drone in the Collective, the Jedi/Sith Borg would be rather unique.

Not that that would truly be a big deal, but it might be interesting to see if the uniqueness is enough to cause tensions.

I don't see it as a problem. When Borg first encounter a race, they (try to) assimilate it - even though the first drone(s) from that species will be 'rather unique'. I can't recall any mention of Borg rejecting uniqueness - they'd just subvert it to the good of the Collective.

There are also creatures that can breathe different atmospheres, yet we never see Borg doing so... just ebcause you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

It's not unreasonable to assume that you gain access to ALL the biological abilities of an entity when you assimilate it... and Lucas shot himself in the foot on that one, when he made The Force a parasite.

I don't beleive we've ever known the Borg to assimallate those creatures that breath different atmospheres. they normally assimalate very human like creatures.

As for weather they can use the Force, just because something could happen isn't proof that it does. However, I suppose its possible.

In abillity to adapt wouldn't be a factor. The Empire would just open fire. However, 8472 has some decent weapons. They blew up a planet, after all. Not as spectacularily as the Death Star, and it took a group of ships, but they were much smaller ships.

The Empire relies on heavy fire and fighters. I guess in this case it would come down to accuracy. The Empire does have the advantage of numbers.

One question: did that particular weapon destroy the planet through raw power, or some sort of chain reaction? If the latter, they might not be able to get through planetary sheilds.

I can't answer that one. No one really knows.

In any case, unless the Empire can access fluidic space, 8472 doesn't have to worry about defending their space, and can just attack. In this case, the Empire might try infecting them with a bioweapon to take back home with them.

If the Empire found a way into fluidic space, I suspect that they would try to destroy it.


On another note, I think that due to the biological nature of Species 8472, I suspect that would make them very vulnerable to the force.

I don't see it as a problem. When Borg first encounter a race, they (try to) assimilate it - even though the first drone(s) from that species will be 'rather unique'. I can't recall any mention of Borg rejecting uniqueness - they'd just subvert it to the good of the Collective.

In which case there is no problem at all.

Unless you're me, in which case you will have nightmares about Jedi Borg...:(

I don't beleive we've ever known the Borg to assimallate those creatures that breath different atmospheres. they normally assimalate very human like creatures.

As for weather they can use the Force, just because something could happen isn't proof that it does. However, I suppose its possible.

They normally assimilate very human like creatures? Like 8472, which they WOULD assimilate, if they could?

I'm not buying it.

What's the Borg mission statement: "We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own."

What does the Queen say: "Brave words. I've heard them before, from thousands of species across thousands of worlds, since long before you were created. But, now they are all Borg".

Distinctiveness isn't avoided, it's embraced... and human-like is a relatively new innovation for Borg.

In which case there is no problem at all.

Unless you're me, in which case you will have nightmares about Jedi Borg...:(

Nightmares? I never understood why the Borg were supposed to be so bad...

Nightmares? I never understood why the Borg were supposed to be so bad...

No, see, it's not that. It's just the combination, and the way my mind works.

I'm inventive.

I don't beleive we've ever known the Borg to assimallate those creatures that breath different atmospheres. they normally assimalate very human like creatures.

As for weather they can use the Force, just because something could happen isn't proof that it does. However, I suppose its possible.

Since the Borg apparently don't need air, it doesn't matter anyway.

Wasn't there thought about sending a Borg drone back with a computer virus at one point? How do you think that would have played out?

No, see, it's not that. It's just the combination, and the way my mind works.

I'm inventive.


That sounds twisted. And sick. And wrong.

Tell us more. :)

That sounds twisted. And sick. And wrong.

Tell us more. :)

Well, my last dream ended up with spyware infecting my entire life making everyone and everything I ever interacted with sing "Hey Jude!" :confused:

Well, my last dream ended up with spyware infecting my entire life making everyone and everything I ever interacted with sing "Hey Jude!" :confused:

Awesome.

And even more disturbing in context of Jedi Borg...

Yes, let. Why are areas like Mos Eisley not under direct Imperial control? Because it's a pain in the ass to try and take and hold the whole universe. Hutt (and others) are willing to go along with the Empire, because it's not inconvenient not to.

If the Empire started running around doomsday-bombing worlds, I don't think Hutt (or others) would just sit back - and then the Empire has two wars on their hands.

Unless you think they're all stupid?

It's highly unlikely the mafia knew of the existence, much less goals of the Manhattan Project. Projects like these can be kept secret.


Doesn't matter. The Borg adapt - it's what they do. If you adapt to the Borg - even if you could - they adapt right back.

Not necessarily. The Borg have preset behavior routines and tactics, which don't change, ever. If you can neutralize those things, that's it for the Borg.


Because he's a mechanical, so you can't just assimilate him with nanotech. But even by the end of that movie, the Borg were working an answer to that little problem.

All they had was an appeal to Data's wish to be human. That's not going to work on a droid without that wish.

And in case you didn't notice, their answer was the wrong one.


A droid army would be the best bet, short of something like 8472... but even droids aren't immune to the Borg's assimilation technology - they just would have to 'prep' them, first.

I assume you mean reprogram them. Possibly, but so far as we've seen, the Borg never employ full on bipedal machines, only cyborgs. Which is rather odd, don't you think?


Not to mention - blowing the shit out of droids is also surprisingly effective.


War machines tend to be a bit more robust and stronger than their meatbag counterparts.


But - were back again to production - the Empire is limited to it's maximum production quota, whatever that may be, while Borg production increases with every civilian they encounter.

You can make more machines in less time than it takes to get one full grown human, even if you used cloning technology.


We've seen how quick Borg adapt before - it doesnt take them long, at all, to adapt Federation etchnology to Borg technology. Like... minutes to convert a cargo-hold into Borg cubicles, etc.

It's not hard to imagine them converting a town - even on a backwards world like Tatooine - into a Borg production plant in hours - or less. Spacecraft - even faster, probably - with all that heavy machinery already to hand.

That makes no sense.


There are clues that suggest they can... not by 'magic', but by technology.


In which case the Borg don't need to assimilate anything. They can simply copy themselves a hundred thousand times over and overrun every world in seconds.

Why don't they then hmm?

In any case, casually violating the laws of thermodynamics puts you well outside the realms of sci-fi and into magic fantasy land, much like the Force really.


Again, the clues suggest otherwise. Isolated groups subsist, or attempt to join other groups.

Groups yes. Mini collectives. I'm talking about the removal of all possibilities of any collective of any size. Complete communications blackout.


Isolated individuals have varied responses... there's no guarantee that cutting off areas of the Borg would really affect their progress, even if it was possible -0 which is not certain.


The only ones with varied responses was Hugh who had already been contaminated with individuality. Those who haven't, and lack support from individuals, by former Borg testimony, just ended up not doing anything and dying out.

Hive minds that suppress individualism do have weaknesses you know.

Your vaunted "they'll adapt to anything" fails when they lose their biggest advantage.


Another leap of faith - how DO you 'wipe out the Borg'? All it takes is one Borg...

It takes a collective. Not one borg. One borg is a slightly articulate statue waiting for entropy to finish it off.


Maybe. On the technological component. Maybe, once.

The Borg without their technology are just meatsacks who wouldn't be able to move since the majority of their body is technology based. And surprise, surprise, their communications gear is also technology based.

The Borg have a number of glaring weaknesses which if exploited correctly, would render them mostly harmless. Hive minds mean that if one is affected, all are affected, nearly instantaneously.

Saying that they'll adapt to everything, despite evidence that they clearly cannot adapt to everything, is merely wishful thinking.

They didn't HAVE to... but since they were there, and they had the technology, why not? That's adaptation in action.

No, that's stupidity. Why go all the way to your enemy's home planet, announcing your intentions with clearly detectable time traveling, with only one ship, that you know will be blown up by a pursuit force, to a sub-critical point of history in mankind?

Easier to gather a handful of cubes and smash them piecemeal.

Of course if you want to time travel, why not do that in your territory, and then stroll over to your enemy's home world for pursuit free, leisurely assimilation?

And why just before they invent the warp drive? There's no technological benefit in doing so. Is it to blot out an annoyance? Then why not go back to before that, when it's not so time critical. After all, they don't want Federation tech if they're willing to smoosh the Federation before it exists.

Everything they've done there is nothing you would find in a logical, unrelenting hive mind. It's everything you'd find in a cheap, cardboard, individual, evil overlord who has failed to read every single entry in the Evil Overlord's Manual.

In summary, First Contact Borg are paradoxes, rubbish ones at that.

It's highly unlikely the mafia knew of the existence, much less goals of the Manhattan Project. Projects like these can be kept secret.


The Manhattan Project wasn't actually IN Manhattan, you know?


Not necessarily. The Borg have preset behavior routines and tactics, which don't change, ever. If you can neutralize those things, that's it for the Borg.


A curious assertion to make, and one which isn't necessarily borne out by the canon. Hugh, for example, suggests otherwise.


All they had was an appeal to Data's wish to be human. That's not going to work on a droid without that wish.


Not at all - they DID capitalise on Datas desire to be human, but the actual process was converting Data into a part-mechanical, part-organic lifeform... which, if continued, would have allowed Data to be assimilated by conventional means.


And in case you didn't notice, their answer was the wrong one.


Not at all - Data refused the option of being transformed further, but there was no necessity to GIVE him a choice. He was accorded special treatment because of his unique status.


I assume you mean reprogram them. Possibly, but so far as we've seen, the Borg never employ full on bipedal machines, only cyborgs. Which is rather odd, don't you think?


I'm not sure this is true - doesn't one of the very few other positronic machines (Lore) side with the Borg? And - in Voyager - 'One' has no biological components.


War machines tend to be a bit more robust and stronger than their meatbag counterparts.


True. That doesn't mean you can't crater them.


You can make more machines in less time than it takes to get one full grown human, even if you used cloning technology.


Not strictly true, of course... the Borg don't NEED to make humans, they pick them ready made.


That makes no sense.


How so? We've seen Borg building machinery out of what was extant when they arrived. The more technology, and the more complex it is (seemingly), the quicker they construct - as seen by the rapid conversions you see onboard ship.

Which part is confusing? All they need to find is humans and... say, mining machinery... and you've got a Borg production plant.


In which case the Borg don't need to assimilate anything. They can simply copy themselves a hundred thousand times over and overrun every world in seconds.


They don't assimilate purely for numbers - they assimilate for biological and technological distinctiveness.


Why don't they then hmm?


Because that's not quite what I said - I never suggested they were popping material out of the ether. But also - dramatic necessity as much as anything else.


In any case, casually violating the laws of thermodynamics puts you well outside the realms of sci-fi and into magic fantasy land, much like the Force really.


No one said anything about violating the laws of thermodynamics. I didn't say that Borg were being created from nothing.


Groups yes. Mini collectives. I'm talking about the removal of all possibilities of any collective of any size. Complete communications blackout.


Which is a bit of a stretch, considering the Empire wouldn't even have access to the technology that Borg use to communicate. How do you block it, if you can't detect it? How do they block it without some akin technology? How are they supposed to be blanketting EVERY Borg?


The only ones with varied responses was Hugh who had already been contaminated with individuality. Those who haven't, and lack support from individuals, by former Borg testimony, just ended up not doing anything and dying out.


Not true. Hugh's followers were individiuals. The Voyager episode "Unity" has separated individuals of a number of alien species. "One" was an individual. "Locutus" was an individual. The Borg Queen(s) is/are individual. Seven's previous 'crew' are separated...

Just off the top of my head.


Hive minds that suppress individualism do have weaknesses you know.


I'm not saying they don't.


Your vaunted "they'll adapt to anything" fails when they lose their biggest advantage.


Which is what? Their collective?

We've also seen Borg trying to reassert the collective link - in some cases, creating synthetic versions of it, in other cases creating shadows of it. Apparently, being Borg is greater than just implant-deep


It takes a collective. Not one borg. One borg is a slightly articulate statue waiting for entropy to finish it off.


Clearly, not. As a number of examples I've already given, suggest.


The Borg without their technology are just meatsacks who wouldn't be able to move since the majority of their body is technology based. And surprise, surprise, their communications gear is also technology based.

The Borg have a number of glaring weaknesses which if exploited correctly, would render them mostly harmless. Hive minds mean that if one is affected, all are affected, nearly instantaneously.


It doesn't mean that, at all. When Janeway contaminates the Borg at the end of the Voyager arc, she kills the Queen by 'infecting' her... which damages the structure and arguably damages the Collective... but there's no suggestion she damages ALL the 'local' Borg.

It's not unreasonable to assume that Borg have safety protocols or virtual machines.


Saying that they'll adapt to everything, despite evidence that they clearly cannot adapt to everything, is merely wishful thinking.


They do, as a general rule adapt to pretty much anything. One Borg might not... but The Borg will.


No, that's stupidity. Why go all the way to your enemy's home planet, announcing your intentions with clearly detectable time traveling,


Clearly detectable by... the craft that will never have existed in about 30 seconds?


...with only one ship,


Because it wasn't an invasion...


...that you know will be blown up by a pursuit force,


Which is irrelevent.


...to a sub-critical point of history in mankind?

Easier to gather a handful of cubes and smash them piecemeal.


Yes - if it was a war. But, it wasn't. The Borg are at war in the Delta Quadrant, where they are based. One Borg cube wandering over to have a look at Earth is a gesture of curiousity - not a declaration of war.


Of course if you want to time travel, why not do that in your territory, and then stroll over to your enemy's home world for pursuit free, leisurely assimilation?


Because that wasn't the point?


And why just before they invent the warp drive? There's no technological benefit in doing so.


Actually, there is - the biological and technological distinctivenes thing again.


Is it to blot out an annoyance? Then why not go back to before that, when it's not so time critical. After all, they don't want Federation tech if they're willing to smoosh the Federation before it exists.


But they can easily pick up nascent human warp technology, by arriving at just that time. It's all about 'distinctiveness'.


Everything they've done there is nothing you would find in a logical, unrelenting hive mind. It's everything you'd find in a cheap, cardboard, individual, evil overlord who has failed to read every single entry in the Evil Overlord's Manual.

In summary, First Contact Borg are paradoxes, rubbish ones at that.

Clearly you do not much care for the Borg, which explains why you assume so many things, and ask so many questions that can easily be resolved by just thinking about what we've seen.

well i'm one of those who would side with neither one: try REAL (written) science fiction instead. and that being said, and relating to the other thread about what books to make movies out of, there was a novella serialized in two parts in analog way back sometime in the early to mid 70s called wolfling that was by gordy dickenson, possibly in partnership with someone else, i forget, that had light sabers before star wars was even thought of.

and the were actually a lot trippier, the way they were used, and how it was worked into the story why they were developed and needed to be.

and it had a context about earth not being the center of the universe but learning rather that it wasn't. in a way the roll of centaurans in b5 seems to be built on, related to their roll in that one. how earth came into contact with them and their roll in turning us loose on the galaxy, implied in the what would come after sort of thing.

the problem i have with BOTH star wars AND star trek, is that the're both set in a universe in which humans who look like us, still seem to be able to think and get away with thinking, that we're somehow god's gift to the rest of the galaxy or something. star trek worse then star wars in that reguard, having to do with historical circumstances under which both were conceptualized.

star warz, has the problem built right into its name really, this whole idea of political disagreements being amenable to militaristic solutions. i don't thing it started out to reinforce that mentality, if anything just the opposite, in the first three of the movies to be made, but subsiquently it has drifted, i think, to appeal to an increasinly brutal and belligerant mentality. and to me, that equals a considerably less intelligent one.

One thing that Star Trek could use to Pwn the Empire - Tribbles. :D

The Manhattan Project wasn't actually IN Manhattan, you know?

Three sites actually. Los Alamos, New Mexico; Oak Ridge, Tennessee; and Richland, Washington. But since the real world Mafia didn't know about it, why would jumped up space Mafia know about the equivalent assuming the same levels of secrecy.


A curious assertion to make, and one which isn't necessarily borne out by the canon. Hugh, for example, suggests otherwise.

Well this is a philosophical distinction. The Borg is the Collective. Is a drone out of the collective still Borg?

And more than that, Hugh was influenced by individualism.


Not at all - they DID capitalise on Datas desire to be human, but the actual process was converting Data into a part-mechanical, part-organic lifeform... which, if continued, would have allowed Data to be assimilated by conventional means.

Hmm, and yet Data seems never to have actually been assimilated at all. He had to be tempted with options, which he voluntarily turned down and then went to give them all a plasma bath. So no, they didn't assimilate Data.

In any case, all he got was a skin job. Unless that's where Data kept his cognitive functions, that's hardly going to assimilate him.


Not at all - Data refused the option of being transformed further, but there was no necessity to GIVE him a choice. He was accorded special treatment because of his unique status.

Baseless assertion. There is no evidence of that.


I'm not sure this is true - doesn't one of the very few other positronic machines (Lore) side with the Borg? And - in Voyager - 'One' has no biological components.

Lore didn't side with the Borg. He co-opted a splinter faction (Hughs) for his own purposes. As for 'One', which one?


True. That doesn't mean you can't crater them.


It takes a great deal more effort, which is the point.


Not strictly true, of course... the Borg don't NEED to make humans, they pick them ready made.

Who are still of limited stock and growth potential.


How so? We've seen Borg building machinery out of what was extant when they arrived. The more technology, and the more complex it is (seemingly), the quicker they construct - as seen by the rapid conversions you see onboard ship.

Which part is confusing? All they need to find is humans and... say, mining machinery... and you've got a Borg production plant.

Take a good look at a Borg cube. Take a good look at it's scale. Now tell me with a straight face that some mining machinery is all they'll need to churn out those kinds of ships.


They don't assimilate purely for numbers - they assimilate for biological and technological distinctiveness.

Then why need an entire species to do that hmm? Logically, it would make better sense to periodically harvest a portion of a biological species as well as their technological base and then come back later when they've added some more.

But they don't. They're more like locust swarms, munching everything they can get their hands on.


Because that's not quite what I said - I never suggested they were popping material out of the ether. But also - dramatic necessity as much as anything else.

You seemed to say that it was something they could do from a technological aspect. For the purposes of a sensible universe though, let's say that they don't.


No one said anything about violating the laws of thermodynamics. I didn't say that Borg were being created from nothing.

No, you didn't say Borg, specifically. I said:

Unless of course, the Borg casually violate several laws of thermodynamics and can magic up materials and energy out of thin air.

In which case, they don't need to assimilate anything. They could magic more of themselves up.

With which you replied

There are clues that suggest they can... not by 'magic', but by technology.

So there we go.


Which is a bit of a stretch, considering the Empire wouldn't even have access to the technology that Borg use to communicate.

Not initially no. But strip out any dramatic convenience, and in an outright fight, the Borg will take some losses, maybe lose a few fronts in a full scale campaign. That means technology left behind can be harvested and reverse engineered, even if it's just a retreating ship with a handful of dead drones.


How do you block it, if you can't detect it? How do they block it without some akin technology? How are they supposed to be blanketting EVERY Borg?


Every single Borg? No. They don't need to. They just need to blanket a local area where there's an immediate fight with them. The front line Borg are cut off from the collective and fall back to preset routines while to the collective, the front line Borg have simply gone poof without any data to work on.

Rinse and repeat as you continue to push Borg lines.


Not true. Hugh's followers were individiuals. The Voyager episode "Unity" has separated individuals of a number of alien species. "One" was an individual. "Locutus" was an individual. The Borg Queen(s) is/are individual. Seven's previous 'crew' are separated...

Seven's previous 'crew' formed a mini-collective. The Borg Queens are either illogical anomalies or actual top level command structure of the hive mind.

And Hugh can't have any followers unless he met them at some point no? Seems to me that anyone he came into contact with and infected with individualism was already an individual lite when they finally broke free.

As for the Unity episode, if that is what I think it was, it was anomalies wherein small numbers of Borg didn't have their implants fully take, retaining their original selves.

In which case, it's not very likely that the returning personalities would continue fighting for the Borg.


Which is what? Their collective?

We've also seen Borg trying to reassert the collective link - in some cases, creating synthetic versions of it, in other cases creating shadows of it. Apparently, being Borg is greater than just implant-deep

In nearly every case I can think of, these are mini-collectives attempting to re-establish contact with the larger collective.


Clearly, not. As a number of examples I've already given, suggest.


The examples cut both ways.


It doesn't mean that, at all. When Janeway contaminates the Borg at the end of the Voyager arc, she kills the Queen by 'infecting' her... which damages the structure and arguably damages the Collective... but there's no suggestion she damages ALL the 'local' Borg.


There's also no suggestion that she doesn't.


They do, as a general rule adapt to pretty much anything. One Borg might not... but The Borg will.

8472. Picard. Data. Janeway. Hmmm, seems to me they actually fail quite badly a few times.


Clearly detectable by... the craft that will never have existed in about 30 seconds?

Who can spend those 30 seconds making sure you stop existing right now.


Because it wasn't an invasion...


No, no. They were there for tea and cakes, but the Borg are terrible cooks and the cake collapsed in the oven while the price of tea was simply outrageous.

If it wasn't an invasion, to what point would they need to assimilate late 21st century Earth then?


Which is irrelevent.

Very relevent if the pursuit force consists mostly of missiles.


Yes - if it was a war. But, it wasn't. The Borg are at war in the Delta Quadrant, where they are based. One Borg cube wandering over to have a look at Earth is a gesture of curiousity - not a declaration of war.


One time is curiosity, two times isn't. And how isn't blowing up other people's ships not a declaration of war?

Have you been taking IDF lessons?


Because that wasn't the point?


Oh? Then what is the point of so many tactical and strategic blunders, aside from ego feeding that is?


Actually, there is - the biological and technological distinctivenes thing again.


Which they already have from existing assimilation.


But they can easily pick up nascent human warp technology, by arriving at just that time. It's all about 'distinctiveness'.


So you're saying to date, the Borg have never assimilated even one human warp capable ship. Seven of Nine disagrees.


Clearly you do not much care for the Borg, which explains why you assume so many things, and ask so many questions that can easily be resolved by just thinking about what we've seen.

Actually, I do not care for the "unstoppable, unbeatable, will always win" attribution the Borg get despite the fact that they have and continue to lose, and lose big, against technologically inferior folk.

The Borg couldn't go zooming through space in the past because of the chance of ruining the timeline in a way negative to them. Also, with replicator tech that if they didn't have previously they no doubt got from the Federation they can use matter-to-energy conversion to magic themselves up some borg ship components out of energy and granite. The energy business is easy enough, geothermal, solar, or mysterious borg reactor.

As was flat out stated in First Contact, the Borg chose the time period they did because WWIII had destroyed large amounts of the population, most of the major governments were gone, and people were spread out in small (occasionally warring) factions, with resources very sparse. To put it simply, "little resistance".

We saw how quickly the Borg managed to turn the engineering room of the Enterprise into a full-fledged Borg environment, and then, most of the lower decks too. Now, let's grant the advantage of already being familiar with Federation technology, and let's grant the disadvantage of Data being familiar with Borg methodology and being physically able to put up an encryption they would not be able to counter, due to his amazing brain-power and speed with his fingers. Let's also grant the disadvantage that the Federation would have been putting up as many anti-Borg enhancements to their systems as they can, especially in their newest, most advanced ship in the fleet, designed with defense and offence against the Borg in mind. Let's grant a final disadvantage that Section 31 most probably knew about the Borg before the Enterprise encountered them (remember those Federation and Romulan planets mysterously being destroyed in and around the Neutral zone?), and would have likely been learning as much as they can about them for as long as possible.

So, with all this in mind, and remembering how helpess Federation systems were against Borg technology when they first encountered eachother. Let's assume the Empire has not taken any anti-Borg measures, due to the simple fact that they have never encountered the Borg before. Imperial computer systems would be assimilated by the Borg as easily as the Federations were in Q Who. Moreover, with the assimilation of an Imperial officer or two, would come comprehensive knowledge of Imperial systems (you'd hope your officers would know how to use your computers).

Hilariously enough, one of, if not, the only, argument going for an Imperial victory is their sheer numbers. Of course, this will be their biggest disadvantage. The Borg need to assimilate only one ship to know everything about defeating the Empire. How long would it take the Empire to find any kind of weakness in the Borg, given that they do not regularly explore completely alien technology, and that indeed, the very premise of alien technology is... well... alien to them? Moreover, how long will it take for them to be able to use such a weakness, should they be able to find one, to construct an advantage to them, such as weapons, shields, or something else? And then, how long would it take to impliment this new technology on every Imperial ship in the galaxy? Oncemore, the sheer size of the Empire results in a sore disadvantage to them.

I'm not convinced - Lucas talks about things like 'sensing a disturbance in The Force', and there's been the suggestion that The Force permeates everything - creature, person, rock... etc... but what about EXTRA-galactic entities?

There are many contradictions in Star Wars lore. Not quite as many as there are in Star Trek, but enough, certainly in relation to the Jedi.

On the one hand, Order 66 is said to have been a success because the Clone Troopers were pre-programmed to carry out the orders with cold, ruthless efficiency. They had no ill-intent towards the Jedi, whom they had served alongside throughout the Clone Wars, and because there was no malice involved, the Jedi didn't sense it.

While on the other hand, Force sensitive are said to possess a form of 'pre-cognition', gifting them with apparently superior reflexes. Kinda like that film with Nicolas Cage in it where he could see a few seconds into the future.

If we're to assume that Jedi would find their powers muted in a midi-chlorian-free galaxy like the Milky Way (which, despite my Star Wars preference, I'm forced to agree with), it becomes hard to tell whether or not they could sense 'danger' in general. With a form of pre-cognition thrown in, would it rely on their attacker having malice in their hearts or not?

Who knows. Time itself probably doesn't have midi-chlorians.

There are also creatures that can breathe different atmospheres, yet we never see Borg doing so... just ebcause you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

It's not unreasonable to assume that you gain access to ALL the biological abilities of an entity when you assimilate it... and Lucas shot himself in the foot on that one, when he made The Force a parasite.

Seeing as Borg have been shown to function without any kind of atmosphere at all, the first point is somewhat moot. I'm sure if we allowed the ST EU into all this the question would be different, as in the ST EU we've seen all sorts of different, non-biped creatures, but it's not canon so it's moot.

Regarding your second point, I believe the assimilated Jedi would retain his midi-chlorians and his Force sensitivity. Would the drone then be able to utilise this ability, or even allow other drones to do so? I don't know. A Jedi (or a Sith) requires a certain frame of mind to reach their true Force potential, a frame of mind which the Borg are virtually incapable of adopting. Perhaps an assimilated Jedi would retain certain latent Force abilities, but nothing like what they achieved in life.

In abillity to adapt wouldn't be a factor. The Empire would just open fire. However, 8472 has some decent weapons. They blew up a planet, after all. Not as spectacularily as the Death Star, and it took a group of ships, but they were much smaller ships.

One question: did that particular weapon destroy the planet through raw power, or some sort of chain reaction? If the latter, they might not be able to get through planetary sheilds.

In any case, unless the Empire can access fluidic space, 8472 doesn't have to worry about defending their space, and can just attack. In this case, the Empire might try infecting them with a bioweapon to take back home with them.

With the Death Star firing a laser at a planet to destroy it, I don't see why we can't consider 8472 to have the same ability. We don't know either way.

As for developing a bioweapon, given the radically different biology of Species 8472, I can't see the Empire developing anything that would be effective against them in any reasonable amount of time.

I don't see it as a problem. When Borg first encounter a race, they (try to) assimilate it - even though the first drone(s) from that species will be 'rather unique'. I can't recall any mention of Borg rejecting uniqueness - they'd just subvert it to the good of the Collective.

Exactly. The Borg themselves have stated, time and time again, that they are after your 'biological distinctiveness'. It's their primary mission - to assimilate other species and adopt their strengths. Again, though, I don't see them using any Force abilities to their fullest, so don't expect Force Lightning or anything.

The Empire relies on heavy fire and fighters. I guess in this case it would come down to accuracy. The Empire does have the advantage of numbers.

I remember reading a short story on DITL.org about an encounter between the Empire and the Enterprise. Although it was ridiculously biased towards the Federation, the Empire simply flooded the space around their target with so many turbolaser bolts that even if they were pea-shooters the Enterprise's shields would have been damaged.

On another note, I think that due to the biological nature of Species 8472, I suspect that would make them very vulnerable to the force.

Again, assuming the Jedi could use any kind of direct Force powers against a completely alien foe. As someone mentioned earlier, Lucas shot himself in the foot with that whole midi-chlorians business.

Nightmares? I never understood why the Borg were supposed to be so bad...

Pre-First Contact it was the concept that was scary. A race of cyborgs, taking you by force, mutilating your body, and then taking completely control of your very spirit to force you to serve them for the rest of your life. It's like a dictator with the ability to take control of your brain.

It's highly unlikely the mafia knew of the existence, much less goals of the Manhattan Project. Projects like these can be kept secret.

Yeah, but superweapons in Star Wars tend to be big-feckoff-mofos, and criminal organisations in Star Wars tend to have starships with sensor arrays.

Not necessarily. The Borg have preset behavior routines and tactics, which don't change, ever. If you can neutralize those things, that's it for the Borg.

The Borg are all about adapting. We've even seen them use deception and politics against the Voyager crew. Nothing we know about them suggest that they're stuck in their ways, in fact it's the opposite.

All they had was an appeal to Data's wish to be human. That's not going to work on a droid without that wish.

Data is a far more sophisticated piece of kit than C3PO. The Borg went down that route because even with the most sophisticated computer in the universe it would have taken a long time to crack Data's security systems and take control of him by force. Which is another example of them changing their tactics, incidentally.

I assume you mean reprogram them. Possibly, but so far as we've seen, the Borg never employ full on bipedal machines, only cyborgs. Which is rather odd, don't you think?

They assimilate technology just as they assimilate organics, but they seem to favour a combination of the two rather than relying on one purely.

War machines tend to be a bit more robust and stronger than their meatbag counterparts.

B1 Battle Droids seemed susceptible to a simple kick from an old fart, if you ask me.

In which case the Borg don't need to assimilate anything. They can simply copy themselves a hundred thousand times over and overrun every world in seconds.

The Borg don't want to copy themselves as they strive for perfection. They want to assimilate new species into their collective to accommodate their unique advantages - a sort of forced evolution, if you will. Cloning themselves ad infinitum wouldn't achieve their main objective, so they don't do it.

Groups yes. Mini collectives. I'm talking about the removal of all possibilities of any collective of any size. Complete communications blackout.

You're right. Drones go nuts when they're on their own and completely cut-off.

Not at all - they DID capitalise on Datas desire to be human, but the actual process was converting Data into a part-mechanical, part-organic lifeform... which, if continued, would have allowed Data to be assimilated by conventional means.

The problem with Data was his brain - it was incompatible with Borg assimilation techniques. There was nothing stopping them from simply taking the various technological advantages throughout his body and utilising them elsewhere, but the writers wanted an opportunity to get somebody kissing a Borg.

I'm not sure this is true - doesn't one of the very few other positronic machines (Lore) side with the Borg? And - in Voyager - 'One' has no biological components.

He wasn't siding with the Borg, he was siding with a bunch of misfits who were disconnected from the collective. He was acting more like a Sith when he took advantage of them.

And in Voyager, One does have biological components, yes. Why else would the Doctor attempt to give him a hypospray if he was a robot?

One thing that Star Trek could use to Pwn the Empire - Tribbles. :D

Tribbles = win. Nothing can beat their sex addiction.

Not initially no. But strip out any dramatic convenience, and in an outright fight, the Borg will take some losses, maybe lose a few fronts in a full scale campaign. That means technology left behind can be harvested and reverse engineered, even if it's just a retreating ship with a handful of dead drones.

Borg technology has a nasty habit of self-destructing...

[QUOTE=Fonzica;14058366]As was flat out stated in First Contact, the Borg chose the time period they did because WWIII had destroyed large amounts of the population, most of the major governments were gone, and people were spread out in small (occasionally warring) factions, with resources very sparse. To put it simply, "little resistance".

Which doesn't explain why they bothered going there in the first place. The Borg aren't out to conquer, they're out to gain 'biological and technological distinctiveness', and going back in time by even a few hours completely negates that goal, let alone a few centuries. The ships they assimilated at Wolf 359 would have completely eclipsed the entire planet as it was in the 21st century in terms of technology alone. Why bother going there, then?

Which doesn't explain why they bothered going there in the first place. The Borg aren't out to conquer, they're out to gain 'biological and technological distinctiveness', and going back in time by even a few hours completely negates that goal, let alone a few centuries. The ships they assimilated at Wolf 359 would have completely eclipsed the entire planet as it was in the 21st century in terms of technology alone. Why bother going there, then?

Because the Borg aren't after the Federation technology. Every aspect of Federation technology is weaker than at least one of the other Alpha Quadrant species. Weapons, shields, propulsion, cloaking, etc.; there is another Alpha Quadrant species that has superior technology to the Federation in each. The Federation has the most balanced technology, while other species have defined strengths and weaknesses. Therefore, if they were looking for technological distinctiveness, they wouldn't bother with the Federation.

It's similar with biological distinctiveness. Humans are demonstrated as being well-rounded, while other species are shown as being stronger in one area and weaker in another (Klingons are stronger, but generally dumber, Ferengi have superior hearing but are shorter, etc.). So, again, if they were going after pure biological distinctiveness, they wouldn't bother with humans.

So what are the Borg really after with humanity? It's hard to say. Clearly, the one distinct advantage humans/Federation always has in Star Trek is their tenacity. The Federation, because they're the good guys, always finds a way to rise to the occasion and come out on top of any situation, no matter how dire, because if they didn't, the bad guys would win, and that's not how you write a television show. So that must be what the Borg are after. The Borg have witnessed a clearly inferior foe defeat them on every single occasion by only the slimmest of margins and through sheer ingenuity. They must believe that humanity has some sort of inate ability to be victorious, and maybe that's the biological distinctiveness the Borg want.

So what are the Borg really after with humanity?

V'Ger ?

V'Ger ?

I read that somewhere... The Borg and V'Ger are connected, although I seem to recall I've read different ideas that suggested the Borg were V'Gers pawns in one version, but were somehow connected to the 'race of intelligent machines' that caused V'Gers 'apotheosis' in a different version.

It was a while back, so the details are a little hazy... :)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galaxy_Gun
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Crusher
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/World_Devastator

I think these might make some kinda difference...

One thing that Star Trek could use to Pwn the Empire - Tribbles. :D
Biological warfare?! Are you insane?! The Federation would never stoop to such a level!

I read that somewhere... The Borg and V'Ger are connected, although I seem to recall I've read different ideas that suggested the Borg were V'Gers pawns in one version, but were somehow connected to the 'race of intelligent machines' that caused V'Gers 'apotheosis' in a different version.

It was a while back, so the details are a little hazy... :)
Nothing canon about it though. You must've read that in the Star Trek Chronology or something. (Which made up a few things along the way.)

Nothing canon about it though. You must've read that in the Star Trek Chronology or something. (Which made up a few things along the way.)

Aye, not claiming it as canon - just saying I'd heard it before. :)

I'm trying to keep on track, and this is getting way too unweildy. I've chopped a chunk of stuff just to try to maintain some kind of rationality to it. If there's something that got chopped that you feel we must pick back up, just pop it back in.


Hmm, and yet Data seems never to have actually been assimilated at all. He had to be tempted with options, which he voluntarily turned down and then went to give them all a plasma bath. So no, they didn't assimilate Data.


No, they didn't. That doesn't mean they couldn't.


In any case, all he got was a skin job. Unless that's where Data kept his cognitive functions, that's hardly going to assimilate him.


All he got was a partial job. The Borg Queen made it very apparent that you get different results from a 'willing' modification to become part of the Collective, and an unwilling one. Based on what Picard/Locutus and the Queen discussed, and the interactions with Data - I assume it's as simple as maintaining individuality.

The Collective wanted Data's unique perspective. As one of very few 'positronic' entities to have existed, Data's technological distinctiveness is unparalleled, and his experience is unique - hence, they wanted him in as pristine a state as possible - a willing convert.

But, they didn't ask permission to modify him a little, and they COULD have modified him far more, and then assimilated his flesh.

If ALL they wanted was his components, all they had to do was dismantle him.


Baseless assertion. There is no evidence of that.


As I said - they didn't have to ask him permission - they could have chopped him up, or just kept on adding bio-material. The fact that they didn't is clearly not because they couldn't... so it MUST be that they didn't want to.

It's not baseless - it's right there.


Then why need an entire species to do that hmm? Logically, it would make better sense to periodically harvest a portion of a biological species as well as their technological base and then come back later when they've added some more.


One example gives you a template for the biological distinctiveness of the species - as opposed to other species. But the Borg are seeking perfection, and there's no reason to believe that that can be found by sampling just one example of each species. What if red hair is key to perfection, but you only sampled a blonde?

Trivial example - but you can see where that goes.


No, you didn't say Borg, specifically. I said:

Unless of course, the Borg casually violate several laws of thermodynamics and can magic up materials and energy out of thin air.

In which case, they don't need to assimilate anything. They could magic more of themselves up.

With which you replied

There are clues that suggest they can... not by 'magic', but by technology.

So there we go.


There are clues to suggest they can 'magic up more of themselves'... but I enver said they had to break the Laws of Thermodynamics to do it, or conjure up those new Borg out of nothing. They just don't NEED to assimilate - which is the part I was responding to.

Assimilation isn't because of 'need' - it's because it's what they DO - it's how they evolve.


There's also no suggestion that she doesn't.


So... what? You assume she actually destroyed all the Borg in the Delta Quadrant?


8472. Picard. Data. Janeway. Hmmm, seems to me they actually fail quite badly a few times.


They didn't fail with 8472 - they were just fighting a war... and, arguably, they gained technological distinctiveness from the Federation that means they WON'T 'fail' in that war. Which might turn out to have been a very bad choice, later...

They assimilated Picard. How is that failing?

They tried an experiment on a unique entity which meant he would not WILLINGLY convert... they won't make the same mistake again.

You seem to be implying that not winning the first contact every time.. is a failure of adaptation.

The exact opposite is true, of course.


No, no. They were there for tea and cakes, but the Borg are terrible cooks and the cake collapsed in the oven while the price of tea was simply outrageous.

If it wasn't an invasion, to what point would they need to assimilate late 21st century Earth then?


It wasn't a war! Why do you keep saying it was?

What would be the point in assimilating 21st Century earth? Biological and technological distinctiveness.. the same answer as it always is. Does technology change? Yes - that means EARLIER technology is 'distinct' as well, not just later technology. The Borg aren't necessarily looking for what is most MODERN... they are looking for PERFECTION.


One time is curiosity, two times isn't. And how isn't blowing up other people's ships not a declaration of war?


One time is curiousity, what? Are you referencing the Q assisted interaction?

How is blowing up ships NOT a declaration of war? Simple - how is stepping on a bug not a declaration of war?


Which they already have from existing assimilation.


No.... they're not looking for 'examples' or templates. The ideal Borg conquest involves obtaining ALL the biological and technological distinctiveness.

Again - they're not just looking for upgrades.


So you're saying to date, the Borg have never assimilated even one human warp capable ship. Seven of Nine disagrees.


I didn't say that, no.

But, there would certainly be incentive to gain the prototype.


Actually, I do not care for the "unstoppable, unbeatable, will always win" attribution the Borg get despite the fact that they have and continue to lose, and lose big, against technologically inferior folk.

I'm not a big fan of how the Borg were constructed either, although I understand the intent. I think they were constructed too 'deus ex-y', and that later attempts to ameliorate that problem, actually undermined the original construct.

The ongoing success of Voyager against the Borg is actually one of the biggest problems I have with Voyager - because it's nonsensical. Without rewriting the canon, the creators of Voyager just threw repeated punches at the Borg. The fact that it got almost to the point where Voyager was trashing a Cube a week made it kind of nonsensical, especially since they didn't actually write out the adaptability of the Collective.

They just decided to ignore it for the sake of the story.


But that's an aside - it's not my liking or disliking of the Borg that matters here. The Borg ARE written to always overcome, eventually. They have to be like that, or they're not frightening, and they are very MUCH supposed to be the 'monster in the dark' in Star Trek.

Biological warfare?! Are you insane?! The Federation would never stoop to such a level!

I am sure they could jsut convince the public at large it was a Pet exchange


Nothing canon about it though. You must've read that in the Star Trek Chronology or something. (Which made up a few things along the way.)

It is as close to Cannon as you can get with out being Cannon. Gene Roddenberry had it in his notes that V'ger made the borg to gain information. However after the time of Star trek the motion picture one V'ger leaves the borg to explore other universes. Which is supposed to coincide with when the Borg begin to aggressively seek out to assimilate all life.

the reason it did not get added to Cannon was because before he had written scripts/books was he died before publishing.

the only other books to mention it are part of the Kirk Universe where he gets it backwards and has the borg make Vger.

I am sure they could jsut convince the public at large it was a Pet exchange
A truly evil move...yet Section 31 would do it...


It is as close to Cannon as you can get with out being Cannon. Gene Roddenberry had it in his notes that V'ger made the borg to gain information. However after the time of Star trek the motion picture one V'ger leaves the borg to explore other universes. Which is supposed to coincide with when the Borg begin to aggressively seek out to assimilate all life.

the reason it did not get added to Cannon was because before he had written scripts/books

the only other books to mention it are part of the Kirk Universe where he gets it backwards and has the borg make Vger.

Eh, canon is determined by Paramount/CBS Studios now. Gene Roddenberry had the canon argument while he was alive, but since he's dead, he can't control it anymore.

(Incidentally, this is why we can take Lucas's words and not Roddenberry's, because Lucas is still alive.)

On the Borg argument: Are you really sure they're going for perfection? What if they're just going for assimilation of everybody, and then to sell Avon products? :)(Mega cookies to whoever gets it.)

A truly evil move...yet Section 31 would do it...


it would like bring the sith to power as they would be the only one evil enough to kill tribbles via sith lighting. and become the savior of the galaxy.


Eh, canon is determined by Paramount/CBS Studios now. Gene Roddenberry had the canon argument while he was alive, but since he's dead, he can't control it anymore.

(Incidentally, this is why we can take Lucas's words and not Roddenberry's, because Lucas is still alive.)

On the Borg argument: Are you really sure they're going for perfection? What if they're just going for assimilation of everybody, and then to sell Avon products? :)(Mega cookies to whoever gets it.)

thats why I said as close to Cannon with out being Cannon. Paramount has really failed in cannon control as they are too afraid to make any real changes otehr then space opera type trash.

it would like bring the sith to power as they would be the only one evil enough to kill tribbles via sith lighting. and become the savior of the galaxy.

Nah, because that's too decent a plot twist for Lucas.

thats why I said as close to Cannon with out being Cannon. Paramount has really failed in cannon control as they are too afraid to make any real changes otehr then space opera type trash.

I think Paramount's canon policy is pretty solid. It limits things to what everyone has seen for the most part.

The only issue I think is the extremely odd sudden canonicity of The Animated Series which happened recently. It's true that Yesteryear was always partially canon, but having the entire TAS canon doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

But then again, we get a canon felinoid species, so maybe that was all worth it.

Nah, because that's too decent a plot twist for Lucas.


I think Paramount's canon policy is pretty solid. It limits things to what everyone has seen for the most part.

The only issue I think is the extremely odd sudden canonicity of The Animated Series which happened recently. It's true that Yesteryear was always partially canon, but having the entire TAS canon doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

But then again, we get a canon felinoid species, so maybe that was all worth it.


they need to jump a few hundread years into the future. like they did from TOG to TNG. so they can re explain all the tech stuff again and get the sci fi nerds wet in the pants. with out new Sci fi stuff to drool over it just becomes space opera.

As for developing a bioweapon, given the radically different biology of Species 8472, I can't see the Empire developing anything that would be effective against them in any reasonable amount of time.


The Federation did, sort of. They altered Borg nanoprobes to kill 8472's.

Now, the Empire seems to put less emphisis on science in general, but if their's one area of reserch they excell at, its weapons engineering. Also, their superior size means they will be able to devote more money, reserch, and equipment to the problem. Hell, if they take control of a ship that knows about this vulnerabillity, they can just torture the knowledge out of the crew.

Couldn't the Empire just invent the Borg killing shape that the federation did?

Then the Borg's vaunted conectedness would kill em all.

Biological warfare?! Are you insane?! The Federation would never stoop to such a level!

Probably been mentioned before, but...

Later that year, while researching the disease ravaging the Great Link and Odo, Bashir discovered that Section 31 had engineered the deadly morphogenic virus, infecting Odo during his time on Earth in mid-2372 in a preemptive attempt to neutralize the Dominion by committing genocide.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Section_31
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Morphogenic_virus

...the Federation has it's hawks. These hawks are no less ruthless than the Empire when it comes to their goals.

Probably been mentioned before, but...



http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Section_31
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Morphogenic_virus

...the Federation has it's hawks. These hawks are no less ruthless than the Empire when it comes to their goals.

Also, they altered Borg nanoprobes to kill Species 8472. Does that count as biological warfare?

Probably been mentioned before, but...



http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Section_31
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Morphogenic_virus

...the Federation has it's hawks. These hawks are no less ruthless than the Empire when it comes to their goals.

I am aware of this. I was being facetious. :p

it doesn't matter... except that Star Wars!!!

I'm going to reiterate one of my arguments, since it was somewhat overlooked...

The Borg's main directive in life is to encounter alien species and technology, and assimilate it. This is their specialty. It is what they do best. It is routine for them to find new technology and assimilate it to their own. The Empire might present some particularly alien technology, but the Borg will of course, assimilate it, because it's what they do.

However, the Empire has not encountered truely alien technology ever. Everything in the Star Wars universe was known about for millenia before the Empire came along. They have had absolutely zero experience with adapting to new technology and new species. It is more than reasonable, it is necessary to say that the Empires ability to handle alien technology is vastly inadequate. The Borg would assimilate the entire SW galaxy before the Empire even knew how to defend against transporters.

I'm going to reiterate one of my arguments, since it was somewhat overlooked...

The Borg's main directive in life is to encounter alien species and technology, and assimilate it. This is their specialty. It is what they do best. It is routine for them to find new technology and assimilate it to their own. The Empire might present some particularly alien technology, but the Borg will of course, assimilate it, because it's what they do.

However, the Empire has not encountered truely alien technology ever. Everything in the Star Wars universe was known about for millenia before the Empire came along. They have had absolutely zero experience with adapting to new technology and new species. It is more than reasonable, it is necessary to say that the Empires ability to handle alien technology is vastly inadequate. The Borg would assimilate the entire SW galaxy before the Empire even knew how to defend against transporters.

One of the big difference between Trek and Wars is that Trek tech is a lot less consistant. Its a fractured Galaxy, with the Cardassians or Kazon at one end of the scale and the Q at the other. In Wars, its a lot more standerdized.

That said, its not hard to stop transporters. Pleanty of types of materials or radiation will do it. Borg ones, though, are a bit harder.

Dominion transporter technology has been seen to be rather invincible as well.

Dominion transporter technology has been seen to be rather invincible as well.

Decepticons, attack!


:tongue: