NationStates Jolt Archive

Inspired in part by my attempt at an rp on this theme, and partly by the thread about things that make you uncool.

This is a topic I've had a lot of fun with on other forums, including ones dedicated to this topic. Since my rp quickly brought up this classic sci-fi debate despite my best efforts to avoid contentious arguments, and since I know we have both Star Wars and Star Trek fans on these forums, I decided to post a thread to discuss where NSG stands on this subject.

For the record, I'm talking about Star Wars during the original films, and Star Trek during the post Dominion War Period. That is, I'm trying to put both sides at the height of their military strength.

Senario one is a total war, with all sides from each universe magically putting aside internal conflicts to fight eachother. IE, total war of universe vs universe.

Senario two is more "plausible", with the Empire and its allies vs the Federation and its allies. The Empire wins if it takes control of all space in the Alpha and Beta Quadrents explored by the Federation, and all major powers within that space. The Federation wins if it forces the Empire back to their galaxy.

Star Wars would win, because of the ridiculous difference of scale in Star Wars vs. Star Trek.

Just wanted to get this in, because that's how this thread always goes.

Star Wars would win, because of the ridiculous difference of scale in Star Wars vs. Star Trek.

Just wanted to get this in, because that's how this thread always goes.

Not just Tech differences, mind you. Star Wars is more united under the Empire, while Trek is highly factionalized.

However, senario one just isn't fair to Star Wars. By allowing everyone from both universes, I give Trek the Q and a host of lesser energy beings who can control minds and manipulate matter. Sennario one is basically a free win for the Trek side, unless you wish to argue that the combined power of the Jedi and Sith is equal to a Q.

Senario two is an Imperial win, but their may not be much left to control. The Romulans, at least, have been working on developing Star Destroying weapons, and if they use them, it will provoke a massive retaliation from Imperial WMDs. Also, some factions such as the Klingons would have a tenedency to fight even once the situation became hopeless, which would likely result in Imperial ethnic cleansing.

Q > The Emperor, therefore Star Trek wins.

Not just Tech differences, mind you. Star Wars is more united under the Empire, while Trek is highly factionalized.

However, senario one just isn't fair to Star Wars. By allowing everyone from both universes, I give Trek the Q and a host of lesser energy beings who can control minds and manipulate matter. Sennario one is basically a free win for the Trek side, unless you wish to argue that the combined power of the Jedi and Sith is equal to a Q.

Ah. I was operating under the assumption that things like Q would be disqualified because they're essentially "cheating".

I'm actually a Trek fan. But look at the scale of the military vessels in Star Wars vs. Star Trek. It's not even close.

http://www.merzo.net/

Go to the -10x page and check out a Super Star Destroyer versus anything the Star Trek universe can muster. It's not even close. The absurdity of scale in Star Wars would make any objective analysis (as ridiculous as THAT sounds :)) tilt overwhelmingly for Star Wars. Unless Star Trek universe can cheat. Then it's overwhelmingly pro Star Trek.

Q > The Emperor, therefore Star Trek wins.

:hail: That is an awesome first post and one of the most honest responses I've seen.

When a little trilithium can make a star go nova and wipe out everything in said system, I'm not worried about how big of a ship that shockwave runs into...I know which one will win.

Ah. I was operating under the assumption that things like Q would be disqualified because they're essentially "cheating".
[...]
Go to the -10x page and check out a Super Star Destroyer versus anything the Star Trek universe can muster. It's not even close. The absurdity of scale in Star Wars [...]

Then both are cheating.

Then both are cheating.

Ah, but then we have to decide whose cheating, if any, to accept.

scenario 1: the borg will pwn, Star Trek wins. i don't care how many ships the Empire has or how much of the galaxy they control. and that's not counting Q or any other such supreme being

scenario 2: just the Federation and associates would be outnumbered pretty badly. they'd have some tech advantages (without going into the relative speed of ships or power of weapons, cos that'll make my head explode if i have to read about it one more time)... the empire would probably snatch it, but there'd be heavy losses.


http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWhi2.html

Star Wars ships cannot fight at superluminal speeds.

Star Trek ships can.

End result: One federation shuttlepod could eventually destroy the entire Imperial fleet with a light phaser cannon.

Trekkies annoy me less than Star Wars fans, so Star Trek, definitely.

End result: One federation shuttlepod could eventually destroy the entire Imperial fleet with a light phaser cannon.

As we know from the movie, all it takes to destroy a Death Star is one fighter.

Star Wars ships cannot fight at superluminal speeds.

Star Trek ships can.

End result: One federation shuttlepod could eventually destroy the entire Imperial fleet with a light phaser cannon.

Careful with this one. The Star Wars shippers will get all uppity and talk about the differences between hyperspace and warp speed and so on and so forth.

I have to say that this senario is highly unlikely as the UFP would probably side and ally with the Rebellion and they would together wipe out the Empire. Since both the Rebel Alliance and the Federation hold similar ideals towards governent. Not counting the fact that other alien races might attempt to join and side with the Empire. And the Borg might make a temporary alliance with the rebellion and the federation to wipe out the Empire as the Borg wouldn't like the idea of another dominating force trying to control them. Or....the Borg might join up with the Empire, recongizing similarites with Darth Vader and wipe out the alliance and the Federation and then go after the Empire. The senearios are many.

Star Wars ships cannot fight at superluminal speeds.

Star Trek ships can.

End result: One federation shuttlepod could eventually destroy the entire Imperial fleet with a light phaser cannon.

To be fair, a ship would have to use torpedoes...phasers draw their power from the warp engines.

So, it wouldn't be quite that easy...a ship can only carry so many torpedoes. :p

...also, the Empire would have a significant strategic advantage with hyperspace, but warp drive pwns tactically, so it's tough to say who would be harder pressed to adapt their tactics.

Or....the Borg might join up with the Empire, recongizing similarites with Darth Vader and wipe out the alliance and the Federation and then go after the Empire. The senearios are many.

If anything, I think the Borg would try to assimilate themselves some midichlorians.

scenario one: I win because I have a girlfriend.
scenario two: see above.

If anything, I think the Borg would try to assimilate themselves some midichlorians.

Oooh Borg with Force powers.... scary....

Starwars, just by gross weight tons alone


ITS A TRAP!

Arrgg

Ah. I was operating under the assumption that things like Q would be disqualified because they're essentially "cheating".

I'm actually a Trek fan. But look at the scale of the military vessels in Star Wars vs. Star Trek. It's not even close.

http://www.merzo.net/

Go to the -10x page and check out a Super Star Destroyer versus anything the Star Trek universe can muster. It's not even close. The absurdity of scale in Star Wars would make any objective analysis (as ridiculous as THAT sounds :)) tilt overwhelmingly for Star Wars. Unless Star Trek universe can cheat. Then it's overwhelmingly pro Star Trek.
But, But, X-Fighters destroyed the Death Star - scale doesn't matter and Believe me, whether you like it or not, Tasha Yar. 7-of-9 and Deanna Troi have the force on their side.

Oh, and

Borg Cube > Death Star
Locuious of Borg > Darth Vader

Star wars wins both times. FOREVER.

I think they'll destroy each other.. or better yet hurt each other so much that they'll sue for peace.. Just imagine a war of that magnitude!! :D

I'm saying Star Wars, I haven't seen much of Star Trek but I know they don't have weapons near the scale of the Death Star and all these things like the force and jedi and all that crap.

Scenario A. Not counting Super beings like Q. Star wars would win. they can travel much faster. Two days across the entire galaxy(where as 30 years for voyager) the one able to better able move their forces into position wins not to mention ease of supply. not to mention Jedi/Sith would do all sorts of covert OPs that the Feds simply couldn't match

Scenario B. Star trek wins. Star wars faster then light travel requires pre mapped routes. once they hit the unknown areas of Star trek galaxy they would become sitting ducks for cloaked ships making sudden strikes then warping out unable to be pursued.
The Star wars galaxy never envisioned or designed for conquest outside the Galaxy and would not be able to handle it.

Why is it always this question, and never any question of (say) Star Wars vs Warhammer 40K, or the Dominion vs the Daleks, or something more original?

Why is it always this question, and never any question of (say) Star Wars vs Warhammer 40K, or the Dominion vs the Daleks, or something more original?

The price for originality is having to be creative.

So in Star Wars ships move at light speed at their fastest. Warp one is light speed.

Every ship in the Star Trek universe can out maneuver every ship in the Star Wars universe.

This isn't even getting the Q involved, Star Trek universe = win.

And did ships in Star Wars even have shields?

...also, the Empire would have a significant strategic advantage with hyperspace, but warp drive pwns tactically, so it's tough to say who would be harder pressed to adapt their tactics.

Definitely a strategic advantage.

Think about it this way. How long did it take for Voyager to travel down one quadrant of a galaxy? Without the cheats and shortcuts they picked up, they estimated what, 30 years? I don't remember how long.

Han Solo managed to take a trip from a distant corner of his galaxy to somewhere near the center in presumably a few weeks, since they didn't noticeably age.

But if we want to go a few steps out, let's take a look at Episode V, where the remnants of the rebel fleet fled the galaxy altogether, far enough to the point where the entire galaxy was viewable through a small observation window.

Any military force capable of traversing that amount of distance in relatively short periods of time would be able to seize any number of worlds while the majority of the response forces are still puttering around getting from point A to B.

Definitely a strategic advantage.

Think about it this way. How long did it take for Voyager to travel down one quadrant of a galaxy? Without the cheats and shortcuts they picked up, they estimated what, 30 years? I don't remember how long.

Han Solo managed to take a trip from a distant corner of his galaxy to somewhere near the center in presumably a few weeks, since they didn't noticeably age.

But if we want to go a few steps out, let's take a look at Episode V, where the remnants of the rebel fleet fled the galaxy altogether, far enough to the point where the entire galaxy was viewable through a small observation window.

Any military force capable of traversing that amount of distance in relatively short periods of time would be able to seize any number of worlds while the majority of the response forces are still puttering around getting from point A to B.

See, this is the sort of issues of scale that are in question.

In all honesty, neither. Both sets are so incompatible that it makes actual comparisons meaningless. Furthermore, BOTH series have God-like beings that are capable of warping reality to suit them, I'm not talking of the Q or Force users, but the respective writers/creators of both series who have, time and again, pulled things out of their asses in order to advance the plot and not worry about continuity and realism.

Definitely a strategic advantage.

Think about it this way. How long did it take for Voyager to travel down one quadrant of a galaxy? Without the cheats and shortcuts they picked up, they estimated what, 30 years? I don't remember how long.

Han Solo managed to take a trip from a distant corner of his galaxy to somewhere near the center in presumably a few weeks, since they didn't noticeably age.

But if we want to go a few steps out, let's take a look at Episode V, where the remnants of the rebel fleet fled the galaxy altogether, far enough to the point where the entire galaxy was viewable through a small observation window.

Any military force capable of traversing that amount of distance in relatively short periods of time would be able to seize any number of worlds while the majority of the response forces are still puttering around getting from point A to B.
the problem in the star wars universe you have to use pre mapped routes. The routes were mapped by beings long ago. home turf or some sort of galaxy meld star wars wins every time. you can use hyper space out side the galaxy but going to another galaxy you will have problems once you start encountering gravity and such.

as the visitor team star wars is with out faster then light travel in an unmapped galaxy. there actually was know to the empire a group of beings from another galaxy preparing to attack, however the empire could do nothing because they were still in another galaxy. Years later during the republic they attacked and pwned until the Sith and Jedi start to work together.

Along with the inability of hyperspace travel in an unmapped galaxy I know with complete certainty that with the correct shield "harmonics" a Sovereign class starship could withstand a hit from the Death Star's superlaser. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. Not to mention that a single old Vulcan sitting on Romulus knows the secret mathematics to take a starship back in time. I doubt old Palpy would have planned for that.

Why is it always this question, and never any question of (say) Star Wars vs Warhammer 40K, or the Dominion vs the Daleks, or something more original?

Don't know enough of the Daleks to say, but which Warhammer 40k faction? For the sake of comparisons, massive reality changing entities are thrown out the window.

Tyrannid behemoth hive fleets would literally crush most ST factions by sheer weight of numbers and their ability to constantly evolve new abilities every generation makes them as tough as the Borg. Against SW factions, it becomes a bit tougher, but probably not by much. SW factions have the numbers, but the majority of their weapons seem more towards the big and powerful rather than the average range and many. Against the Empire, the Tyrannid fleets would probably get into a long grinding war of attrition, with the Empire probably adopting the tactic of leaving behind planet busters on all contested worlds in case they lose.

Tyrannid physic connections and shadows are trickier to estimate. It's a good bet that the physic shadows will be useless against blocking FTL travel and communications of both SW and ST, which means that they'll quickly lose the element of surprise, although they'll probably mince Jedi's.

The Tau on the other hand, well, the Tau have the advantage of the best long range weapons to hand, energy and linearly accelerated projectiles, while their infantry kit is top notch, even if they're not very tough in melee. They're small in terms of territory controlled and their starship designs aren't really up to snuff with what the Imperium of Man can churn out, so they probably won't do so well against the Galactic Empire in a full out war. It must be said though, that if they can turn Imperium worlds into Tau ones by sheer diplomacy alone, they can probably do the same towards the rebellion as well as outlying Galactic Empire worlds. They'll probably do better in the SW universe though, except against non-negotiables like the Borg.

Eldar, well, the Eldar can build artificial planets, and have been around long before Earth was anything more than a collection of interstellar dust. They've got speed, mobility, stealth and nano-filament weapons that can punch through Space marine armor, much less Stormtrooper armor or the brightly colored jerseys of the ST universe. They've got the fewest numbers, but they're also the most elusive of the bunch. Their biggest assets are the farseers and other psykers. Equal to the Jedi in terms of prescience, but with much stronger capabilities in terms of warping space and time. They also have far more reliable interstellar and planetary gateways than those Wallmart brand ST transporters.

They won't win any kind of real war against either universe, but they can nibble them to death, and they're more the type to play interstellar factions against each other anyway. All in all, they have the worst chances of winning in a full war, but you'll have a hell of time trying to make them lose it.

The Orks, ahh, the Orks, dumb but cunning, literally grow and breed like mushrooms, strong enough to rip you apart with their pinkies and can bend the laws of physics to build crude but powerful guns and giant mecha out of scrapyard parts, and love war. You can't decisively beat them. Damn near impossible. Even if you wipe out every last one, there's always a chance that some spores lie in wait to grow to a full scale waagh.

Still, the Galactic Empire is capable of carrying out scorched world policies where there's Orks, and if they do it enough times, the Orks can be wiped out entirely. The SW faction on the other hand, is too squeamish to deal with that. Besides, most of them are terrible at the Ork forte, melee combat.

Next up, we have the Imperium of Man. That includes the Imperial Guard, the Titan corps, Imperial Navy and of course, the Space Marines. The Imperial Guard seem to be about no better than your run of the mill Stormtroopers, although their vehicles are a bit more primitive than the stuff the Galactic Empire can field. Still, they aren't something to look down on, and will be able to give the SW and ST worlds a fair fight when it comes to defending taken worlds. They've got Baneblades and their variants though, the tracked versions of AT-ATs. Not to be underestimated.

Space Marines and their bigger brethren, Terminators. Genetically modified 9 foot tall supermen with many redundant organs, toxic blood, enhanced reflexes, powered armor and two stage gyrojet guns. Jumpjets and chain driven swords are common among them, as well as small mecha driven by their war wounded quadriplegics commonly outfitted with large caliber miniguns, missile packs and powered fists, as well as flamers. Special units like Librarians with powerful psychic abilities capable of creating large scale shields bolsters their complement. At infantry range, the ST universe loses, no question. Slow firing phasors and polyester suits won't help much against any of these. The SW universe can do a bit better, especially with advanced model shielded battle droids and heavy armor. They'd be eaten up at urban fighting though.

The Imperial Navy on the other hand, is somewhere in between. Relatively slow reaction drives, unreliable interstellar travel, but immense firepower in terms of lasers, torpedoes and assorted weaponry including fighters and bomber craft. Their operating scales are close to SW, but lose out in terms of automation, so easier to cripple.

The Titan corps. Giant mecha. Actually, no. Super giant mecha is closer. The Imperium fields a dwindling number of these, but that makes them no less mightier. The biggest is easily the size of a tall building, carries starship class shielding and has weapons capable of levelling huge chunks of a city in a single shot, while fielding an entire company of Space Marines inside. On any planetary engagement, both the SW and ST universe loses out against these. Even the AT-ATs would be toys compared to them.

All in all, the Imperium of Man would win, with it's billion worlds and massive war potential against SW and ST. That is, if you didn't count their unreliable FTL methods which can take anywhere from a few weeks to years, not to mention being lost entirely, their dwindling technological capabilities and internal factioning. That being said, they can definitely knock either universe down on their ass hard and are as ruthless as the Galactic Empire.

The forces of Chaos are a bit like the Imperium of Man, but smaller in numbers, but greater in physic capabilities. They're also nastier.

The Necrons, I've left for last for one good reason. They don't lose. Ever. Immortal robotic troops that will come back to life after you smack them down, heavy energy weapons that break all the molecular bonds of their victims, near instantaneous FTL travel better than anything any of the other factions can field, innate teleportation capabilities for all their troops, shock troops capable of flaying the skin from victims in seconds with micrometer blades and nearly impossible to destroy mobile fortresses capable of dishing out Titan levels of firepower and other technologies only made possible with full mastery of the physical realm. Special Pariah troops that have an aura of absolute terror that will have even the hardest soldier blind with fear. This is not counting their masters, the Star Gods, ancient, immaterial and indestructible creatures that literally feed on stars.

Their only weakness is that most of their number is still inactive on Tomb Worlds, although that seems to be coming to an end.

The Galactic Empire could probably fight a losing war of attrition and sacrifice a few dozen star systems with increasingly desperate tactics and might, just might, be able to hold the line, but only at a tremendous cost of men and material.

The United Federation of Planets? They're dead. They just don't have the men and material necessary to hold out against a full scale Necron assault.

the problem in the star wars universe you have to use pre mapped routes.

Since when? Remember, we're not using the books here.

Since when? Remember, we're not using the books here.

Episode 4. Solo mentions the Falcon can make the kessel run in under 12 parsecs when asked if the ship was fast. director commentary they explain that the kessel run has to go through black hole ridden space. the faster the ship can fly the closer it can skirt the edges of black holes along arranged route making the distances shorter. Also it was mentioned in the Xmas special.

And if you don't use those sources, then we have nothing to compare anything too. the movie does not give enough information. It may well be the star trek galaxy is just that much larger then the star wars Galaxy. And the only way you can refute this is by sourcing a book.

Along with the inability of hyperspace travel in an unmapped galaxy I know with complete certainty that with the correct shield "harmonics" a Sovereign class starship could withstand a hit from the Death Star's superlaser. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. Not to mention that a single old Vulcan sitting on Romulus knows the secret mathematics to take a starship back in time. I doubt old Palpy would have planned for that.

if your going to compare them you have to assume weapons are similar. really just a name. otherwise a star wars writer can write a peace of work where the galaxy ceased to use phasers because they were unable to pierce the new alloy now used in all ship construction. and there is always proton torpedos

Episode 4. Solo mentions the Falcon can make the kessel run in under 12 parsecs when asked if the ship was fast. director commentary they explain that the kessel run has to go through black hole ridden space. the faster the ship can fly the closer it can skirt the edges of black holes along arranged route making the distances shorter.

All this means is that you can't use hyperspace travel near particularly strong gravitational wells. Not much about having to map the route. In either case, route mapping can be done cheaply and quickly by building lots of cheap scout probes en masse and launching them in the general direction you want. Once again, the higher travel speed of the probes means higher mapping speed than if using ST technology.

Again, the Empire certainly seems to have the technology to do so.


And if you don't use those sources, then we have nothing to compare anything too. the movie does not give enough information. It may well be the star trek galaxy is just that much larger then the star wars Galaxy. And the only way you can refute this is by sourcing a book.

Pfft. The ST galaxy is the Milky Way, unless that was bizarro Earth humans came from. That gives us a rough size estimate to work from. The SW galaxy on the other hand, has nothing to give a sense of galactic scale beyond being a spiral galaxy, but keep in mind that even the smallest known galaxy has tens of millions of stars, and has a radius measured in thousands of parsecs (1 parsec being 3.3 light years).

What does that tell us? Let's see. Han Solo's Kessel Run. That's 12 Parsecs. Translated, that's 37.2 light years. In how long? He doesn't say, but let's be generous, say a week. It is a smugglers route after all, and is supposed to be speedy. That means in a single day, he traveled 5.7 light years, or thereabouts.

What's warp speed? Speed of light right? So an object traveling at Warp 9 is traveling at 9 times the speed of light correct? So let's see. One parsec at Warp 9 takes how long? Basic math gives us a rounded up figure of 0.35 years or 127.5 days. Multiply by 12 and that gives us 1,533 days, or 4.2 years.

Ergo, Han Solo travels further in a single day with his broken down corvette than the fastest available warp drive ship in SW.

What's warp speed? Speed of light right? So an object traveling at Warp 9 is traveling at 9 times the speed of light correct?

That's actually not how warp speeds work. Originally, warp speeds were a cube of the factor. So, warp 1 is speed of light, warp 2 is 8 times the speed of light, and warp 9 would be 729 times the speed of light. This was later changed so that warp speeds were expressed as the factor to the 10/3 power, with the exception of warp 1, which was still the speed of light (I don't know why). So warp 2 would be roughly 10 times the speed of light, warp 3 would be roughly 39 times the speed of light, and warp 9 would be roughly 1,505 times the speed of light.

That's actually not how warp speeds work. Originally, warp speeds were a cube of the factor. So, warp 1 is speed of light, warp 2 is 8 times the speed of light, and warp 9 would be 729 times the speed of light. This was later changed so that warp speeds were expressed as the factor to the 10/3 power, with the exception of warp 1, which was still the speed of light (I don't know why). So warp 2 would be roughly 10 times the speed of light, warp 3 would be roughly 39 times the speed of light, and warp 9 would be roughly 1,505 times the speed of light.

In either case, consider the following. Star Trek Voyager. 75,000 light year trip, with an estimated time of 75 years. That's 1,000 light years per year, or 2.73 light years a day. Han Solo still comes up much faster.

In either case, consider the following. Star Trek Voyager. 75,000 light year trip, with an estimated time of 75 years. That's 1,000 light years per year, or 2.73 light years a day. Han Solo still comes up much faster.

Right. This is the difference of scale that is problematic whenever this "debate" comes up. Star Wars universe is superior to Star Trek universe in every way because Star Wars writers wrote it that way. There is an absurdity of scale in the Star Wars universe that makes comparing it to Star Trek meaningless.

Right. This is the difference of scale that is problematic whenever this "debate" comes up. Star Wars universe is superior to Star Trek universe in every way because Star Wars writers wrote it that way. There is an absurdity of scale in the Star Wars universe that makes comparing it to Star Trek meaningless.

Which is why watching the fans get into shouting matches of who is better is amusing.

All this means is that you can't use hyperspace travel near particularly strong gravitational wells. Not much about having to map the route. In either case, route mapping can be done cheaply and quickly by building lots of cheap scout probes en masse and launching them in the general direction you want. Once again, the higher travel speed of the probes means higher mapping speed than if using ST technology.

watch the Xmas special. they mention pre mapped routes by ancient aliens. and since it is not a book but a mini movie you can not throw it out. and the books says they do not know how to map new routes.

Again, the Empire certainly seems to have the technology to do so.



Pfft. The ST galaxy is the Milky Way, unless that was bizarro Earth humans came from. That gives us a rough size estimate to work from. The SW galaxy on the other hand, has nothing to give a sense of galactic scale beyond being a spiral galaxy, but keep in mind that even the smallest known galaxy has tens of millions of stars, and has a radius measured in thousands of parsecs (1 parsec being 3.3 light years).

What does that tell us? Let's see. Han Solo's Kessel Run. That's 12 Parsecs. Translated, that's 37.2 light years. In how long? He doesn't say, but let's be generous, say a week. It is a smugglers route after all, and is supposed to be speedy. That means in a single day, he traveled 5.7 light years, or thereabouts.

What's warp speed? Speed of light right? So an object traveling at Warp 9 is traveling at 9 times the speed of light correct? So let's see. One parsec at Warp 9 takes how long? Basic math gives us a rounded up figure of 0.35 years or 127.5 days. Multiply by 12 and that gives us 1,533 days, or 4.2 years.

Ergo, Han Solo travels further in a single day with his broken down corvette than the fastest available warp drive ship in SW.
Incorrect. ST NG warp scale is not a one to one ratio.
Warp 1 is 1 X light speed.
warp 2 is 10X light speed
warp 3 is 39X light speed
Warp 4 is 102X light speed.
warp 5 is 214X light speed
warp 6 is 392X light speed
warp 7 is 656X light speed
warp 8 is 1024X light speed
warp 9 is 1,564X light speed
warp 10 is infinity and unreachable.

the reason you have differences in time measure for getting point A to point B is because George Lucas is a drama writer, Gene Roddenberry is a Sci fi writer. Drama writers don't take into account things like how long ti takes to get across the galaxy Scifi writers do.. Which is why just using the movies provides to comparison to. here let me use your example to give a comparison. from Luke's home is considered to be pretty far out. not super far out, but Id say about 3/4 the way out. they go to Alderran. one of the central areas in about 2 days. Being Very Generous the galaxy is maybe 10X the distance between Aldderan and Tattonie. using your numbers of 12 parsecs a day the Galaxy is a very minuscule 480 parsecs across. Or 744 light years across. the milky way galaxy on the other hand is 100,000 light years across.

the reason being the Lucas didnt think about how big a galaxy was when he wrote star wars. And avoids it in his movies. the only way you get an estimation of the galaxies size is by reading the books. an explanation on why things can move so fast. the reason being is your dealing with Sci fi authors who can invent excuses. Not to mention Star wars books are almost all considered Cannon and require Lucas's approval.

watch the Xmas special. they mention pre mapped routes by ancient aliens. and since it is not a book but a mini movie you can not throw it out. and the books says they do not know how to map new routes.

I do not count the books for one good reason. Different writers. Isolate them to single authors, or at least directly approved ones.


Incorrect. ST NG warp scale is not a one to one ratio.
Warp 1 is 1 X light speed.
warp 2 is 10X light speed
warp 3 is 39X light speed
Warp 4 is 102X light speed.
warp 5 is 214X light speed
warp 6 is 392X light speed
warp 7 is 656X light speed
warp 8 is 1024X light speed
warp 9 is 1,564X light speed
warp 10 is infinity and unreachable.


Explain Voyager. And aren't some of the movies/episodes contradicting that?


from Luke's home is considered to be pretty far out. not super far out, but Id say about 3/4 the way out. they go to Alderran. one of the central areas in about 2 days. Being Very Generous the galaxy is maybe 10X the distance between Aldderan and Tattonie. using your numbers of 12 parsecs a day the Galaxy is a very minuscule 480 parsecs across. Or 744 light years across. the milky way galaxy on the other hand is 100,000 light years across.

All well and good, except for one teeny, weeny detail. We never actually know how long it took for him to make that run.


Not to mention Star wars books are almost all considered Cannon and require Lucas's approval.

Except when you consider the fact that Lucas's movies tend to conflict with the books here and there again. Pretty much the same with the ST universe really.

Ah well, I suppose it doesn't really matter to me anyway. Both franchises have been milked to the point where nothing makes continuous sense anymore.

If you're interested in the most in depth (albeit very bitter) St vs. SW site, see here. (http://stardestroyer.net/toc.html)

Be warned the guy who runs it takes the St vs. Sw debate to almost jihadist levels of seriousness.

Explain Voyager. And aren't some of the movies/episodes contradicting that?
Yes. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Warp_factor#Background

Remember, both the Enterprise, Voyager, Defiant, and the Millennium Falcon all travel at the same speed, the Speed of Plot. They take however long they need to get there according to the story. Lucas tends to just ignore distance and time whereas Star Trek, working within just half of our own galaxy, tends to like the drama called for arriving in the nick of time.

If you're interested in the most in depth (albeit very bitter) St vs. SW site, see here. (http://stardestroyer.net/toc.html)

Be warned the guy who runs it takes the St vs. Sw debate to almost jihadist levels of seriousness.
He's also seriously biased. But then, so is the Trek side.

Is it that time of year again? The annual sw vs. st fanboy contest.

He's also seriously biased. But then, so is the Trek side.

If you read his fanfic on the subject you'll see that he treats both sides quite fairly.

Grox > both *hides*

If you read his fanfic on the subject you'll see that he treats both sides quite fairly.
I have read through his site and I find it very, very biased. Read his ideas bout Trek = Communism and how SW = Capitalism to see what I mean.

Damm cant we have something like Death Star vs Unicron for a change

i wonder what the Genesis Device would do to the Death Star


scenario one: I win because I have a girlfriend.
scenario two: see above.

lol, i like you

I have read through his site and I find it very, very biased. Read his ideas bout Trek = Communism and how SW = Capitalism to see what I mean.

Yeah, Mike Wong is nuts.

Not that this guy (http://www.st-v-sw.net/) is all that much better...

For scenario 1, I think we can boil it down to a competition between a representative ship from both sides. A Borg Cube vs. the Death Star.

The cube would no doubt be destroyed by the death stars superior fire power as soon as the empire determined the cube a threat. However, after numerous cubes, the Borg would no doubt adapt to the death star, and so it would be useless. But, we're only talking one cube vs. one death star. Given what we know about the Borg, it is reasonable to assume that the Borg, upon seeing this new, exotic technology, would attempt to assimilate it immediately. As such, upon first seeing the death star, the Borg would beam a large group of drones aboard the death star and attempt to set up a hive and assimilate it. Borg transporters would be easily able to beam through the death star, since the death star has no shields to counter trasnporter technology, the one advantage Star Trek has, the Borg would be successful in getting aboard the death star. Stormtroopers blasters would become hideously uselss against the Borg after a few shots. I'd estimate the entire death star falling under complete assimilation in less than a few hours. Any Federation ship would fair much better under such an attack from the Borg, because they are familiar with the borg, and also shields.

So, in Star Trek vs. Star Wars, Star Trek wins because of the Borg.

But in the Federation vs. the Empire, it becomes a little more complicated. I'm of the opinion that the Federation would win. Whilst the empire has many more advantages, both technological and in size, the Federation has the best advantages - transporters, and starfleet training. Stormtroopers have the accuracy of a blind rabbit, starfleet officers have to deal with Klingons. All a Federation ship would need to do is beam a few away teams aboard an Imperial ship, and they would run circles around the stormtroopers, while the Federation ship either cloaks or warps out. Moreover, transphasic torpedos would prove devastating to the empire.

As has also been mentioned, the Romulans have the ability to set a star into supernova, which is far more powerful than the mere ability to destroy a planet. Phasers are also likely to be more effective against lightsabers than blasters have proven, so the force would not be much of an ally in the battle.

Just my thoughts.

I have to say that this senario is highly unlikely as the UFP would probably side and ally with the Rebellion and they would together wipe out the Empire. Since both the Rebel Alliance and the Federation hold similar ideals towards governent. Not counting the fact that other alien races might attempt to join and side with the Empire. And the Borg might make a temporary alliance with the rebellion and the federation to wipe out the Empire as the Borg wouldn't like the idea of another dominating force trying to control them. Or....the Borg might join up with the Empire, recongizing similarites with Darth Vader and wipe out the alliance and the Federation and then go after the Empire. The senearios are many.

About the whole alien races thing, the Empire does not abide by alien races with only a few exceptions.

So in Star Wars ships move at light speed at their fastest. Warp one is light speed.

Every ship in the Star Trek universe can out maneuver every ship in the Star Wars universe.

This isn't even getting the Q involved, Star Trek universe = win.

And did ships in Star Wars even have shields?

The X-Wing fighter traveling in normal space was supposedly able to reach about 1.2 km per second whith its wings locked together i think.
Yes, ships in star wars had deflector screens (or shields) that stopped pretty much anything that came close to a point. Even the smallest of space going vessels were so equipped.

Definitely a strategic advantage.

Think about it this way. How long did it take for Voyager to travel down one quadrant of a galaxy? Without the cheats and shortcuts they picked up, they estimated what, 30 years? I don't remember how long.

Han Solo managed to take a trip from a distant corner of his galaxy to somewhere near the center in presumably a few weeks, since they didn't noticeably age.

But if we want to go a few steps out, let's take a look at Episode V, where the remnants of the rebel fleet fled the galaxy altogether, far enough to the point where the entire galaxy was viewable through a small observation window.

Any military force capable of traversing that amount of distance in relatively short periods of time would be able to seize any number of worlds while the majority of the response forces are still puttering around getting from point A to B.

Hours actually. Hyperdrive travels through an area known as Hyperspace, hyperspace is technically an extra dimension accessible and navigable with the right technology. I'm a gamer, and in the star wars rpg you can navigate vast sections of space, hundreds of light years away, in mere hours by using hyperspace. Its essentially Ludicrous Speed.

The X-Wing fighter traveling in normal space was supposedly able to reach about 1.2 km per second whith its wings locked together i think.
Yes, ships in star wars had deflector screens (or shields) that stopped pretty much anything that came close to a point. Even the smallest of space going vessels were so equipped


TIE fighters didn't have shields or life support.

TIE fighters didn't have shields or life support.

They are also designed to throw en-mass at enemies without concern or regard for the pilots on board. TIE Fighters are a lot like the Japanese Zero. Fast, light, well armed, maneuverable, easy to maintain and build and sent in big waves.

In the nonmentioned scenario 3 - where the Federation universe is doing the invading -
Trek wins if the unified forces do not mind genocide.

Star Wars shows us one HUGE and highly expensive planet destroying weapon.

Star Trek had the highly portable Genesis device generations ago (pun intended), trilithium, several ways to completely destroy a planets biosphere which could be carried by a standard Klingon bird of prey and so on.

If one wishes to combine the technologies of the various series and races one could:

- Create a few thousand AI-sentient warp-able topedo's
- Install a genesis device on them
- Add a cloaking device. Preferably the Federation developed one.
- Send them into the Empire
- Colonise if the little flaws with the device were solved. Otherwise admire the lava.

This will of course leave the empires ships in space intact, but without supporting planets they would have a big problem.

However, after numerous cubes, the Borg would no doubt adapt to the death star, and so it would be useless.

Energy weapons? Probably. On the other side, not once have I ever seen a single Borg display anything beyond structural integrity as a defense against physical weapons. They aren't inhumanly strong either, given that even the mere biologicals could take them on in hand to hand combat.


As such, upon first seeing the death star, the Borg would beam a large group of drones aboard the death star and attempt to set up a hive and assimilate it. Borg transporters would be easily able to beam through the death star, since the death star has no shields to counter trasnporter technology, the one advantage Star Trek has,

I lost count of the number of times transporters in Star Trek wouldn't work. Shields, stellar storms, gas clouds, electrical storms, exotic metals in planetary crust, someone sneezed at the control panel, you name it, it's been done.

A sprinkling of Cheetos would probably be just as effective at stopping the transporters in either case.


Stormtroopers blasters would become hideously uselss against the Borg after a few shots.

Eh, maybe, maybe not. They've got more than just blasters though, including plasma grenades, and high temperature plasma, which ST demonstrates, eats Borg biological components like locusts. I suspect ion weaponry, which disrupts electronics quite handily, will also play havoc on the Borg.

The Borg will have the advantage of surprise, that's for certain.


Stormtroopers have the accuracy of a blind rabbit

This is an unfair comparison. Stormtroopers are stock fodder in the SW world. They're like the Redshirts of the ST world, except redshirts don't have to fight the stars of the show, which means they don't suffer the -10 penalty to accuracy that movie dramatization demands.


starfleet officers have to deal with Klingons.


Seeing as how Starfleet officers, even security officers boarding enemy ships, never wear body armor, and Klingons never use ranged weapons at the infantry level, it's very, very underwhelming.

And nobody has grenades. Ever.


Phasers are also likely to be more effective against lightsabers than blasters have proven, so the force would not be much of an ally in the battle.


Likely isn't certainty though. And that's the way it will be unless Lucas and Gene butt heads.

They are also designed to throw en-mass at enemies without concern or regard for the pilots on board. TIE Fighters are a lot like the Japanese Zero. Fast, light, well armed, maneuverable, easy to maintain and build and sent in big waves.

Yeah, but you said that every spacegoing vessel had shields.

Energy weapons? Probably. On the other side, not once have I ever seen a single Borg display anything beyond structural integrity as a defense against physical weapons. They aren't inhumanly strong either, given that even the mere biologicals could take them on in hand to hand combat.

Thing about the Borg though, they are like zombies. Probably easy to defeat in a one-on-one, but if they swipe you, as we saw in First Contact, you basically become one of them.

I lost count of the number of times transporters in Star Trek wouldn't work. Shields, stellar storms, gas clouds, electrical storms, exotic metals in planetary crust, someone sneezed at the control panel, you name it, it's been done.

A sprinkling of Cheetos would probably be just as effective at stopping the transporters in either case.

Dinky Federation transporters perhaps, but Borg transporters have been effective all the time. Dominion transporters too. If the Borg assimilated the Dominion, they would be even more unstoppable.

Eh, maybe, maybe not. They've got more than just blasters though, including plasma grenades, and high temperature plasma, which ST demonstrates, eats Borg biological components like locusts. I suspect ion weaponry, which disrupts electronics quite handily, will also play havoc on the Borg.

The Borg will have the advantage of surprise, that's for certain.

I think you're underplaying both the Borg's resourcefulness and the severity of the element of surprise to the Empire's disadvantage. The empire will be as helpless as the Enterprise was when they first encountered the Borg, except there won't be an omnipotent being to rescue them from assimilation.

This is an unfair comparison. Stormtroopers are stock fodder in the SW world. They're like the Redshirts of the ST world, except redshirts don't have to fight the stars of the show, which means they don't suffer the -10 penalty to accuracy that movie dramatization demands.

Fair point, but not relevant. As we saw in Episode 1, Luke commented on how he couldn't see through the stormtrooper helmet very well. So the accuracy is a result of the armor (which would be largely useless against the Borg), not of cinematic drama.

Seeing as how Starfleet officers, even security officers boarding enemy ships, never wear body armor, and Klingons never use ranged weapons at the infantry level, it's very, very underwhelming.

And nobody has grenades. Ever.

I believe grenades were used in DS9 in a few episodes. I can't remember though. But certainly, starfleet officers are much more resourceful than stormtroopers. Particularly in combat. Klingons too, as we saw during those few episodes where the Klingon's fought the Federation in DS9.

Likely isn't certainty though. And that's the way it will be unless Lucas and Gene butt heads.

Well, a phaser isn't a pulse weapon. So the wielder of the lightsaber would have to anticipate where the person with the phaser was going to move their hand while in continuous fire.

Star Wars ignores RL physics. Therefore, it godmodes. Hence, it wins, automatically. This is usually the case when one side cheats massively and the other doesn't.

I find such threads to be silly, really. The two series are very different approaches to Science Fiction. Star Trek is classic Sci-Fi, whereas Star Wars, when I think about it, is really more like fantasy/pirate movie/western in Space.

Yeah, but you said that every spacegoing vessel had shields.

It could be construed that way yes. But what I meant and what you read were different. I meant to state the fact that they could be mounted on pretty much anything.

It could be construed that way yes. But what I meant and what you read were different. I meant to state the fact that they could be mounted on pretty much anything.

yeah, but who gives a shit? I think that these are just small things and aren't important.

Thing about the Borg though, they are like zombies. Probably easy to defeat in a one-on-one, but if they swipe you, as we saw in First Contact, you basically become one of them.

They have to inject you, not swipe you. Do get the specifics right. How well that works against hard shell armor, I don't know. EVA suits don't count since they're not armored.


Dinky Federation transporters perhaps, but Borg transporters have been effective all the time. Dominion transporters too. If the Borg assimilated the Dominion, they would be even more unstoppable.

Even against shields? Seems to me that SW shields were certainly capable of stopping energy as well as physical objects.


I think you're underplaying both the Borg's resourcefulness and the severity of the element of surprise to the Empire's disadvantage.


The Borg aren't resourceful. That goes against their nature. They can only adapt to known quantities.


The empire will be as helpless as the Enterprise was when they first encountered the Borg, except there won't be an omnipotent being to rescue them from assimilation.


The only difference being, the rules of engagement of the Enterprise vs the Galactic Empire. Picard loves talking people to death, even if they come with guns blazing. The Galactic Empire follows a more Kirk like approach, i.e. shoot first, forget questions.


Fair point, but not relevant.


Very relevant. How often have we seen redshirts miss or die in SW, even against non-main villains, despite them supposedly being very highly trained federation officers? And they didn't even have the excuse of poor vision through helmets.

If anything, they're worse trained than Stormtroopers.


As we saw in Episode 1, Luke commented on how he couldn't see through the stormtrooper helmet very well. So the accuracy is a result of the armor (which would be largely useless against the Borg), not of cinematic drama.


That's an impressive feat, seeing as how Luke wasn't even born in Episode I and his father was a prepubescent boy. I think you mean IV.

In either case, I also seem to remember Ben going "Only Stormtroopers are capable of such precision fire." when he was talking about Luke's burned out home.


But certainly, starfleet officers are much more resourceful than stormtroopers.


The caveat being that they must be non-main cast starfleet officers. Anyone in the main cast cannot be counted for the simple fact that they are the main cast. They cannot ever be wrong by writer fiat. If a steel door is locked shut and all they have is their bare hands, one of them will figure out that farts will do the job and make it work.

Did a redshirt ever manage to pull a brilliant idea out of his pocket? No? Then the answer is no, starfleet officers are not demonstratively more resourceful.


Particularly in combat.


Hmm, lack of IEDs, lack of adaption to projectile weapons despite proof of effectiveness against Borg, lack of body armor, lack of powered armor, lack of personal shields, lack of anything resembling fire support on planetary missions, lack of flanking tactics (we never see that happen despite the design of the ship making it very possible), lack of covering fire, lack of leapfrog tactics under fire, lack of flashbangs or other disorientating weaponry, lack of breaching weapons, rare to no use of fire from cover, lack of tactical feints.

Half of the items I've listed are basic common sense tactics and equipment any real world infantry level squad and SWAT unit would be familiar with. We never see them in use by Starfleet officers though, be it on boarding or other infantry level engagements.

If that's the maximum level of resourcefulness they have, they suck.


Well, a phaser isn't a pulse weapon. So the wielder of the lightsaber would have to anticipate where the person with the phaser was going to move their hand while in continuous fire.

It's a short life beam weapon, yeah, but even beam weapons have to traverse the distance, and they don't travel instantly.

In either case, I was discounting special units like Jedi, Q and what have you.

Star Wars shows us one HUGE and highly expensive planet destroying weapon.

Two actually.

Two actually.

Three or four, maybe even five that can destroy a planet in a single shot if we count the expanded universe. Plus the world devastators which slowly devour a planet. Plus the Sun Crusher which can destroy entire systems.

Plus the Star Wars universe can ignore physics whenever it's inconvenient for the plot/coolness/etc.

This (http://www.kyle-brady.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/alien_movie.jpg) would win.

They have to inject you, not swipe you. Do get the specifics right. How well that works against hard shell armor, I don't know. EVA suits don't count since they're not armored.

I'd think the Borg would find a quick way around it.

Even against shields? Seems to me that SW shields were certainly capable of stopping energy as well as physical objects.

Star Wars shields seem specifically designed to stop blaster-type weapons and rocks. They don't seem specifically-designed to repulse transport beams, as Federation shields are. The entire concept of transporters would throw the Empire completely off.

The Borg aren't resourceful. That goes against their nature. They can only adapt to known quantities.

When I said resourceful, I meant their ability to adapt. Adapting is what they do best. It IS their nature to adapt. They would adapt to the Empire really quickly. The Empire, not having any real opposition for quite a while, save for the rebel alliance, has become stagnant (like the Dominion). As such, their systems would likely be easy to adapt to and assimilate.

The only difference being, the rules of engagement of the Enterprise vs the Galactic Empire. Picard loves talking people to death, even if they come with guns blazing. The Galactic Empire follows a more Kirk like approach, i.e. shoot first, forget questions.

Like I said, the empire would no doubt destroy the Borg Cube after failing to establish contact with it, but they would not destroy it upon first seeing it. The Borg however, would at least beam aboard a scout party to the Death star instantly, as they did in Q Who.

Very relevant. How often have we seen redshirts miss or die in SW, even against non-main villains, despite them supposedly being very highly trained federation officers? And they didn't even have the excuse of poor vision through helmets.

If anything, they're worse trained than Stormtroopers.

Redshirts are a TOS phenomenon. They were also in TNG a bit (yellowshirts though). But they were phased out by DS9. As the OP stated, we would be dealing with a post Dominion war Federation. During the Dominion wars, we saw starfleet officers being very efficient and well-trained. Redshirts were not all that common during latter DS9, especially in the Dominion Wars. So your redshirt argument isn't usable in the context of the thread.

That's an impressive feat, seeing as how Luke wasn't even born in Episode I and his father was a prepubescent boy. I think you mean IV.

In either case, I also seem to remember Ben going "Only Stormtroopers are capable of such precision fire." when he was talking about Luke's burned out home.

The OP said the thread was taking the Empire from the first three films, and I thought the new three were so bad, I'm no longer acknowledging their existance. So, Star Wars: Episode 1 has Luke destroying the death star. Besides, on my copy of the trilogy, it says Episode I: A New Hope, Episode II: The Empire Strikes Back, Episode III: Return of the Jedi. But that's just me.

I'd also argue that in the movies, we never saw Stormtroopers looking like highly trained military specialists, instead, as bumbling baffoons defeated by a bunch of midget teddy bears, we can assume that all stormtroopers are like that all the time. Whereas, during the later seasons of DS9, we saw starfleet officers being resourceful and accurate. Moreover, we never saw redshirts in those episodes of DS9, so we can assume that somehow, starfleet training got a lot better.

The caveat being that they must be non-main cast starfleet officers. Anyone in the main cast cannot be counted for the simple fact that they are the main cast. They cannot ever be wrong by writer fiat. If a steel door is locked shut and all they have is their bare hands, one of them will figure out that farts will do the job and make it work.

Did a redshirt ever manage to pull a brilliant idea out of his pocket? No? Then the answer is no, starfleet officers are not demonstratively more resourceful.

Already countered above.

Hmm, lack of IEDs, lack of adaption to projectile weapons despite proof of effectiveness against Borg, lack of body armor, lack of powered armor, lack of personal shields, lack of anything resembling fire support on planetary missions, lack of flanking tactics (we never see that happen despite the design of the ship making it very possible), lack of covering fire, lack of leapfrog tactics under fire, lack of flashbangs or other disorientating weaponry, lack of breaching weapons, rare to no use of fire from cover, lack of tactical feints.

Half of the items I've listed are basic common sense tactics and equipment any real world infantry level squad and SWAT unit would be familiar with. We never see them in use by Starfleet officers though, be it on boarding or other infantry level engagements.

If that's the maximum level of resourcefulness they have, they suck.

Have you even seen any Star Trek beyond TOS? Because I see all the tactics you listed in Star Trek all the time, particularly in DS9, and notably in Nemesis.

It's a short life beam weapon, yeah, but even beam weapons have to traverse the distance, and they don't travel instantly.

In either case, I was discounting special units like Jedi, Q and what have you.

But a beam weapon, once fired, can be moved while being fired, so a Jedi would have to know where the user was going to move the beam while being fired.

Star Wars ignores RL physics. Therefore, it godmodes. Hence, it wins, automatically. This is usually the case when one side cheats massively and the other doesn't.

I find such threads to be silly, really. The two series are very different approaches to Science Fiction. Star Trek is classic Sci-Fi, whereas Star Wars, when I think about it, is really more like fantasy/pirate movie/western in Space.

That's the thing. Star Trek, though quite soft, is still most assuredly science fiction, whereas Star Wars falls definitively in the category of science fantasy.

Really, they're only compared so often because they're two of the most well known fictional settings of all time.

That's the thing. Star Trek, though quite soft, is still most assuredly science fiction, whereas Star Wars falls definitively in the category of science fantasy.

Really, they're only compared so often because they're two of the most well known fictional settings of all time.

Indeed. I think they're really, in a way, different genres, despite both taking place in space. It's the main reason why I find arguments like this pointless. People can argue all they want, but Star Trek and Star Wars follow different internal rules that don't correlate well with each other, making comparison really just a matter of opinion. I think a better match for comparison to Star Trek is Stargate, because they are more similar in genre.

Personally, I like Star Wars more than Star Trek, but mainly cause I like the gritty, lived-in feel of Star Wars, and how the characters, while maybe saving the galaxy, have to deal with regular shit like the engine overheating. But then again, Firefly is my second favorite Sci-Fi universe, so I like that kind of stuff.

Energy weapons? Probably. On the other side, not once have I ever seen a single Borg display anything beyond structural integrity as a defense against physical weapons. They aren't inhumanly strong either, given that even the mere biologicals could take them on in hand to hand combat.
Well, for the physical weapons, that is mainly due to their non-use. I don't see modern military forts having any defense against catapults either, but that is mainly because most people don't bother to use them when attacking a military post now-a-days. And yes, physically the Borg are far stronger than humans and can tackle Klingons hand-to-hand.

I lost count of the number of times transporters in Star Trek wouldn't work. Shields, stellar storms, gas clouds, electrical storms, exotic metals in planetary crust, someone sneezed at the control panel, you name it, it's been done.

A sprinkling of Cheetos would probably be just as effective at stopping the transporters in either case.
And how many times has the hyperdrive failed? Do not take dramatics for actual usability of the technology.

Eh, maybe, maybe not. They've got more than just blasters though, including plasma grenades, and high temperature plasma, which ST demonstrates, eats Borg biological components like locusts. I suspect ion weaponry, which disrupts electronics quite handily, will also play havoc on the Borg.
Until the Borg adapt. That's the point, you get one or two shots.

Seeing as how Starfleet officers, even security officers boarding enemy ships, never wear body armor, and Klingons never use ranged weapons at the infantry level, it's very, very underwhelming.

And nobody has grenades. Ever.
Uh, Klingons do indeed use ranged weaponry at the infantry level.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Klingon_disruptor

And yes, people DO use grenades.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Grenade

They have to inject you, not swipe you. Do get the specifics right. How well that works against hard shell armor, I don't know. EVA suits don't count since they're not armored.
Given that a lot of the Stormtrooper armor is cloth joints.... Not to mention that we're talking about nanoprobes.

Even against shields? Seems to me that SW shields were certainly capable of stopping energy as well as physical objects.
But the shields in the ST universe have to be calibrated AGAINST the transporter, would the Empire know how to do that when they've never encountered them before?

The only difference being, the rules of engagement of the Enterprise vs the Galactic Empire. Picard loves talking people to death, even if they come with guns blazing. The Galactic Empire follows a more Kirk like approach, i.e. shoot first, forget questions.
And if they had a Death Star handy, that might work against a cube, anything else though...

Very relevant. How often have we seen redshirts miss or die in SW, even against non-main villains, despite them supposedly being very highly trained federation officers? And they didn't even have the excuse of poor vision through helmets.

If anything, they're worse trained than Stormtroopers.
We've never seen an entire legion of crack Federation officers get taken out by a bunch of walking teddy bears either. Just saying you know. :p

In either case, I also seem to remember Ben going "Only Stormtroopers are capable of such precision fire." when he was talking about Luke's burned out home.
That was the Jawa transport, not Luke's home (Which Obi-wan didn't see), but that seemed to be the ONLY unit in the Empire capable of such fire, everyone else can't seem to hit the broadside of a barn.

Did a redshirt ever manage to pull a brilliant idea out of his pocket? No? Then the answer is no, starfleet officers are not demonstratively more resourceful.
A couple of them have, from time to time, but then again they were usually the guest star of the week.

Hmm, lack of IEDs, lack of adaption to projectile weapons despite proof of effectiveness against Borg, lack of body armor, lack of powered armor, lack of personal shields, lack of anything resembling fire support on planetary missions, lack of flanking tactics (we never see that happen despite the design of the ship making it very possible), lack of covering fire, lack of leapfrog tactics under fire, lack of flashbangs or other disorientating weaponry, lack of breaching weapons, rare to no use of fire from cover, lack of tactical feints.

Half of the items I've listed are basic common sense tactics and equipment any real world infantry level squad and SWAT unit would be familiar with. We never see them in use by Starfleet officers though, be it on boarding or other infantry level engagements.
Um... I've seen just about all of the above from various series and eps.

And as for the physical weapons thing, it's happened... hmm... twice that I can recall, Picard's Tommy gun and Worf's knife, both times they were unexpected. Having seen it once though, it's hard to state that the Borg would allow it to happen again.

Three or four, maybe even five that can destroy a planet in a single shot if we count the expanded universe. Plus the world devastators which slowly devour a planet. Plus the Sun Crusher which can destroy entire systems.

Fair enough. So what we basicly have here is a Foundation (here: federation) vs Empire conflict a la Asimov. The Empire is bigger, stronger with vastly more impressive looking weapons. The Foundation/Federation is smaller - but its technological implementations are far smaller as well. What the Empire does with a mobile moon, the Foundation does with something the size of a car.

And as in the novels, internal politics will make the empire lose :p

Fair enough. So what we basicly have here is a Foundation (here: federation) vs Empire conflict a la Asimov. The Empire is bigger, stronger with vastly more impressive looking weapons. The Foundation/Federation is smaller - but its technological implementations are far smaller as well. What the Empire does with a mobile moon, the Foundation does with something the size of a car.

And as in the novels, internal politics will make the empire lose :p

It is, of course, a good note to make that the terrible planet and star system destroying weapons were, with the exception of one, developed and used by the Empire. The reasoning being that the good guys don't use such things.

If I recall, the Sun Crusher, which was the most powerful weapon developed in the Star Wars universe (to my knowledge) was actually quite small, being the size of a small starfighter.

Yeah, Mike Wong is nuts.

Not that this guy (http://www.st-v-sw.net/) is all that much better...
Indeed!

I'd think the Borg would find a quick way around it.

Eh, we'll see if they ever make a crossover, not that I find it ever likely.


Star Wars shields seem specifically designed to stop blaster-type weapons and rocks. They don't seem specifically-designed to repulse transport beams, as Federation shields are. The entire concept of transporters would throw the Empire completely off.

Energy is energy. Transporter beams are a form of energy. A shield that disrupts energy would thereby disrupt transporter patterns. Until they specifically explain otherwise, we're at an impasse.


When I said resourceful, I meant their ability to adapt. Adapting is what they do best. It IS their nature to adapt. They would adapt to the Empire really quickly. The Empire, not having any real opposition for quite a while, save for the rebel alliance, has become stagnant (like the Dominion). As such, their systems would likely be easy to adapt to and assimilate.


The Empire's only been around for what, 18-20 years anyway? That's all the time Luke had to be born and grow up, and they were fighting a massive civil war before then with comparative strengths. Can they stagnate that much in those few years?


Like I said, the empire would no doubt destroy the Borg Cube after failing to establish contact with it, but they would not destroy it upon first seeing it. The Borg however, would at least beam aboard a scout party to the Death star instantly, as they did in Q Who.

Oh, I don't know about that. I've always seen the Empire as the sort to lay down excessive smackdown on anything they didn't know, and a Borg cube showing up not waving a white flag seems to fit the bill.


Redshirts are a TOS phenomenon. They were also in TNG a bit (yellowshirts though). But they were phased out by DS9.

Since I've only watched a bit of DS9, I'll have to take your word for it. They still lack body armor and personal shields though I suspect.


I'd also argue that in the movies, we never saw Stormtroopers looking like highly trained military specialists, instead, as bumbling baffoons defeated by a bunch of midget teddy bears, we can assume that all stormtroopers are like that all the time.

Three words. Main cast aura. The teddy bears lost pretty badly until the main cast showed up again, and the battle for Hoth did show a very effective military force against competent soldiers.


Have you even seen any Star Trek beyond TOS? Because I see all the tactics you listed in Star Trek all the time, particularly in DS9, and notably in Nemesis.


TNG, some Voyager and a bit of DS9.


But a beam weapon, once fired, can be moved while being fired, so a Jedi would have to know where the user was going to move the beam while being fired.

That's only true for a continuous beam weapon. I don't remember ever seeing them being capable of sweeping fire.

Well, for the physical weapons, that is mainly due to their non-use. I don't see modern military forts having any defense against catapults either, but that is mainly because most people don't bother to use them when attacking a military post now-a-days.

That's because catapults were replaced by more effective weapons which haven't been countered as of yet. Energy weapons against the Borg though, are pretty useless. I've not seen one instance of them adapting to bullets though, or a big and heavy blunt object to the face.

That doesn't mean that you should ignore the low tech solution when faced with neutralization of the high tech though. Look at Dune. Personal Holtzmann shields made projectile weapons useless, explosives ineffective at best and energy weapons suicidal for the firer. Did that mean they kept on using projectiles, explosives or energy weapons? Nope. They went with knives, low tech, but quite capable of penetrating shields being slow moving as they were compared to bullets.

Or heck, take a look at the mess of Iraq and Iran. You don't need multi billion dollar ships and million dollar cruise missiles or fancy microwave weapons or even high end assault rifles to inflict harm on a technologically superior enemy. You use what works, and you use them well.

The Borg aren't a new threat when they ended up tangling with the Federation, and there was clear evidence of what did and didn't work. But we never see them take it up in earnest, instead relying on barely effective weapons.

Heck, I'm willing to wager that hardened and lengthened chainsaws would be far more effective than phasers in infantry combat. In fact, I'd be rather interested in seeing the outcome of that meeting. :p


And yes, physically the Borg are far stronger than humans and can tackle Klingons hand-to-hand.

They still lose sometimes though, so not that impressive.

That being said, it seems to me that the Empire makes extensive use of droids and droids as soldiers is not a new concept. And if you're worried about subversion, why not give them fractal encryption, which ST states as being unlikely to be cracked by the Borg ever?


And how many times has the hyperdrive failed? Do not take dramatics for actual usability of the technology.

On the broken down smugglers ship, or the regularly maintained war vessels? In either case, we all know that dramatics will make technology sprout miraculous new capabilities or have existing ones wither away when convenient.


Until the Borg adapt. That's the point, you get one or two shots.


The Borg don't adapt to physical weapons as far as I've seen, and they've had plenty of time to do so.


Uh, Klingons do indeed use ranged weaponry at the infantry level.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Klingon_disruptor


That's a surprise. I've never actually seen them use anything other than their fists or that oversized cheese slicer of theirs.


And yes, people DO use grenades.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Grenade

Hmm, only used in TOS, when Kirk was around, and in ENT, which was before Kirk timeline-wise. Has Picard ever been near one?


Given that a lot of the Stormtrooper armor is cloth joints.... Not to mention that we're talking about nanoprobes.

Was it cloth? Looked like some sort of rubber to me. And the probes were being injected with a big fat hypodermic the size of my pinkie.


But the shields in the ST universe have to be calibrated AGAINST the transporter, would the Empire know how to do that when they've never encountered them before?

Would they have to? Energy is energy. And sci-fi shields are meant to block just that. Disrupting a pattern even slightly will produce some interesting results, even if it got to the other side. Ever watched Galaxy Quest and the time that transport attempt messed up? Yeah, that.


And if they had a Death Star handy, that might work against a cube, anything else though...

Depends on the dramaitis of the writer. There's evidence to go by which we can extrapolate how powerful an ISD's turbolaser battery can be in terms of joules, and the number is huge, but it's kinda pointless to run comparisons in the end isn't it?


We've never seen an entire legion of crack Federation officers get taken out by a bunch of walking teddy bears either. Just saying you know. :p


Teddy bears reinforced by the aura of main cast. Notice how badly they were slaughtered when the main cast was fiddling around in the base?


That was the Jawa transport, not Luke's home (Which Obi-wan didn't see), but that seemed to be the ONLY unit in the Empire capable of such fire, everyone else can't seem to hit the broadside of a barn.


Because we generally only see the majority of them shooting at the main cast, and we know that they all have invulnerability auras when faced with low level redshirts. :p


A couple of them have, from time to time, but then again they were usually the guest star of the week.

Guest stars are by their nature, main cast material, albeit temporary. If TNG were still running, I'd have half expected Stephen Hawkings to show up again in the role of the eccentric scientist.


Um... I've seen just about all of the above from various series and eps.


Must be from DS9 then. I've not seen it happen in TNG.


And as for the physical weapons thing, it's happened... hmm... twice that I can recall, Picard's Tommy gun and Worf's knife, both times they were unexpected. Having seen it once though, it's hard to state that the Borg would allow it to happen again.

Hmm, explain that weird species of alien that were on the verge of wiping out the Borg then. They had plenty of direct physical contact with them, and were most certainly expecting it, but they didn't adapt to them even once.

Well, in either case, it's been plenty fun, even if it was mostly just hashing out improbabilities, and I've got plenty of overtime to clock in tomorrow. NERVUN, Fonzica, you've been great debaters. See you another time.

Eh, we'll see if they ever make a crossover, not that I find it ever likely.

Alas, all we have is speculation.

Energy is energy. Transporter beams are a form of energy. A shield that disrupts energy would thereby disrupt transporter patterns. Until they specifically explain otherwise, we're at an impasse.

The Borg have weapons specifically designed to take out shields with haste and ease, as we saw in Q Who. A death stars shields would fall very quickly in the wake of something completely new and unexpected, like a Borg shield distruptor.

Alternatively, the second death stars shield generator was on a moon. So the borg could easily disable the moons shields and beam down before the death stars big-planet-blower-upper-thingy gets the chance to power up. Once down there, they would set up a base of operations while the empire still tries to pull up their pants, or thinks that the threat has been neutralised because they have no concept of transporter technology. While in the shield generator base, the Borg would create a transporter and beam up to the death star and begin assimilation there, after familiarising themselves with imperial technology.

The Empire's only been around for what, 18-20 years anyway? That's all the time Luke had to be born and grow up, and they were fighting a massive civil war before then with comparative strengths. Can they stagnate that much in those few years?

They certainly seemed to have in the original movies.

Oh, I don't know about that. I've always seen the Empire as the sort to lay down excessive smackdown on anything they didn't know, and a Borg cube showing up not waving a white flag seems to fit the bill.

First they would try and contact with it.

"Unknown vessel, identify yourself"
*Borg scan area*
"..."
"Unknown vessel, identify yourself"
*Borg open fire upon death star or shield generator to neutralise shields*
"Destroy it!"
*big-planet-blower-upper-thingy powers up*
*Borg beam aboard*
*Borg cube is destroyed*
*Borg begin assimilation*

Since I've only watched a bit of DS9, I'll have to take your word for it. They still lack body armor and personal shields though I suspect.

But they do not lack training, skill, or ability to fight very well.

Three words. Main cast aura. The teddy bears lost pretty badly until the main cast showed up again, and the battle for Hoth did show a very effective military force against competent soldiers.

Valid point. But the same could be argued for the redshirts, being made to look crap like the stormtroopers because of the main cast overshadowing them.

TNG, some Voyager and a bit of DS9.

DS9 is probably the best for stuff like this.

That's only true for a continuous beam weapon. I don't remember ever seeing them being capable of sweeping fire.

I've never seen them not be continuous beam weapons.

Well, in either case, it's been plenty fun, even if it was mostly just hashing out improbabilities, and I've got plenty of overtime to clock in tomorrow. NERVUN, Fonzica, you've been great debaters. See you another time.

I'm still puzzled as to how we made an in-depth discussion about this.

That's only true for a continuous beam weapon. I don't remember ever seeing them being capable of sweeping fire.

Then you haven't watched startrek ;) The phaser *is* a continuous beam weapon.

Was it cloth? Looked like some sort of rubber to me. And the probes were being injected with a big fat hypodermic the size of my pinkie.

*wonders why the borg never just transported the nanoprobes directly into the bloodstream*

Trek would win unless we God-moded the Star Wars universe, although it usually is.

Lasers don't get through the navigational deflector array of a Galaxy-class starship.

Once a Wars ship's shields go down, transporters are going to wreak havoc if used properly (undoubtedly this would be a violation of treaty, but dollars to donuts you could just transport part of the reactor shielding assembly out into space and watch the resulting fireworks).

3 or 4 quantum torpedoes render a planet just as uninhabitable as if it were hit by the Death Star.

The capacity of warp to be used in-combat.

Basically, unless you God-mode the Wars universe's ability to get from one end of the galaxy to another in very short order and treat it as legit, then Trek wins. If you do treat it as legit, then the Empire wins but only because they can get to a planet and destroy it before Trek-fleets can respond, and the Federation doesn't play scorched-earth like the Empire does. In any case where a Wars fleet meets a Trek ship, Trek ship destroys Wars fleet.

the shield harmonics thing was a Trekkie joke. But Spock does know the secret to time travel. Section 31 is also well known at doing the underhanded things the rest of the Federation is too squeamish to do.

Also, with the help of the Traveler the Enterprise D was able to travel warp 10, instantly taking them 2.7 million light years out of the galaxy, where thoughts just happen to become reality. Odds are those calculations were classified. The feds have the annoying habit of not utilizing technology that their society is not ready for.

well the argument that the empire has bigger ships seems valid but then you look at it and it seems most of the empire ship is engine/fuel storage.

yeah, but who gives a shit? I think that these are just small things and aren't important.

Same, I just wanted to add my two cents.

Star Trek uses Matter/antimatter reactors. Something that shows up in a google search as a real-life potential power source. Star Wars on the other hand? Hypermatter reactors, what is hypermatter? A thing that, according to RL physics, doesn't exist. ST is sci-fi while SW is a space opera. Still, Spock time travel ruins any sort of strategic comparison.

Energy is energy. Transporter beams are a form of energy. A shield that disrupts energy would thereby disrupt transporter patterns. Until they specifically explain otherwise, we're at an impasse.
Shields don't stop ALL forms of energy either, if they did, a ship would not be able to do things like, say, SEE or communicate with the outside world. Shields are selective about what kinds of energy they allow though.

That's because catapults were replaced by more effective weapons which haven't been countered as of yet. Energy weapons against the Borg though, are pretty useless. I've not seen one instance of them adapting to bullets though, or a big and heavy blunt object to the face.
The Borg faced down bullets once, and they weren't even real bullets. As for fists to faces, well, they smacked around Worf and Riker pretty well in Best of Both Worlds and 7 of 9 went to town a few times. But in any event, look at it this way, the Borg don't CARE about the individual, only the group. A loss of a drone or two is more than acceptable to the Borg and we've never seen any physical attack done on more than one or two drones.

They still lose sometimes though, so not that impressive.
Again, that doesn't mean much to the Borg. What's one or two drones?

On the broken down smugglers ship, or the regularly maintained war vessels? In either case, we all know that dramatics will make technology sprout miraculous new capabilities or have existing ones wither away when convenient.
Exactly. Meaning I would assume that the transporters would be working just fine.

The Borg don't adapt to physical weapons as far as I've seen, and they've had plenty of time to do so.
Again, the Borg got faced with physical weapons all of two times.

That's a surprise. I've never actually seen them use anything other than their fists or that oversized cheese slicer of theirs.
Klingons find more honor in hand to hand combat, that doesn't mean that they ignore range weapons. Jedi use their lightsabers a lot too, but that doesn't mean they can't be good shots or use fighters.

Hmm, only used in TOS, when Kirk was around, and in ENT, which was before Kirk timeline-wise. Has Picard ever been near one?
Photon grenades were mentioned in TNG, others saw mention in DS9 and VOY.

Was it cloth? Looked like some sort of rubber to me. And the probes were being injected with a big fat hypodermic the size of my pinkie.
Either way, they are not hardened armor and could be pierced.

Depends on the dramaitis of the writer. There's evidence to go by which we can extrapolate how powerful an ISD's turbolaser battery can be in terms of joules, and the number is huge, but it's kinda pointless to run comparisons in the end isn't it?
Apples and oranges really.

Teddy bears reinforced by the aura of main cast. Notice how badly they were slaughtered when the main cast was fiddling around in the base?
Still got taken out by the teddy bears.

Must be from DS9 then. I've not seen it happen in TNG.
TOS had some too. To be fair, TNG was a different breed of animal from TOS and DS9 was done after Gene's death so...

Hmm, explain that weird species of alien that were on the verge of wiping out the Borg then. They had plenty of direct physical contact with them, and were most certainly expecting it, but they didn't adapt to them even once.
Pretty much this was a foe that could take on and overwhelm the Borg. They bit off WAY more than they could chew. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Species_8472#Biology

Well, in either case, it's been plenty fun, even if it was mostly just hashing out improbabilities, and I've got plenty of overtime to clock in tomorrow. NERVUN, Fonzica, you've been great debaters. See you another time.
Night!

Senario one is a total war, with all sides from each universe magically putting aside internal conflicts to fight eachother. IE, total war of universe vs universe.

Q + Borg = Borged Q

Borged Q > alles

Senario two is more "plausible", with the Empire and its allies vs the Federation and its allies. The Empire wins if it takes control of all space in the Alpha and Beta Quadrents explored by the Federation, and all major powers within that space. The Federation wins if it forces the Empire back to their galaxy.

Hmmm... ancient/medieval tactics + superior tech vs WWII tactics with inferior tech - I'm calling that a stalemate.

Why is it always this question, and never any question of (say) Star Wars vs Warhammer 40K, or the Dominion vs the Daleks, or something more original?

OK, I'll call this - Starship Troopers (the real version, not that crap the shite Dutch boy tried to pressent) would pwn Star Wars....

Star Wars obviously wins no question

Why is it always this question, and never any question of (say) Star Wars vs Warhammer 40K, or the Dominion vs the Daleks, or something more original?


Actually we have had those topics ;) The timeshifting ability of the Daleks was an intruiging problem.

What we haven't had (afaik) are debates on which magic user would win. Aes Sedai vs Jedi ? A Vancian "fire and forget" mage vs Harry Potter ? Drizzt Do'urden vs Richard Rahl ? Avatar Aang vs Goku :p ?

We have a winner! :D (http://www.freewebs.com/toaroni/daleks.jpg)

Batman would pwn them all, with sufficient preparation time.

Trek would win unless we God-moded the Star Wars universe, although it usually is.


And that's why Star Wars would win. It is a god-mode. All the time. Trek often tries to stay a bit realistic. Star Wars never gave a shit.

A sprinkling of Cheetos would probably be just as effective at stopping the transporters in either case.


Actually - since SW ships don't tend to employ shield technology, "a sprinkling of Cheetoes" would be a pretty effective way of combatting their space fleets, also...

Big weakness in the Star Wars universe - you don't actually need high tech weapons to destroy an unshielded vessel moving fast. Dust would do it.

Star Wars ignores RL physics. Therefore, it godmodes. Hence, it wins, automatically. This is usually the case when one side cheats massively and the other doesn't.


I was thinking about this - the problem in comparison could be much simpler than we're assuming.

We know that SW technology lets you cross the galaxy in short periods of time... but that's not OUR galaxy. What if that technology ONLY works there?

What if the Force only works there?

Any scenario that involves Star Wars forces combatting Start Trek forces in our 'known space' might instantly become a HUGE disadvantage to the SW fleet.

Star Wars ships cannot fight at superluminal speeds.

Star Trek ships can.

End result: One federation shuttlepod could eventually destroy the entire Imperial fleet with a light phaser cannon.

Exactly.

Big weakness in the Star Wars universe - you don't actually need high tech weapons to destroy an unshielded vessel moving fast. Dust would do it.
What, they have no Whipple Shields or at least a solid shell?

What, they have no Whipple Shields or at least a solid shell?

Who did where with the what, now?

Who did where with the what, now?
Whipple Shields are used on RL spacecraft to prevent damage from sand-sized hypervelocity particles and micrometeoroids.

I was thinking about this - the problem in comparison could be much simpler than we're assuming.

We know that SW technology lets you cross the galaxy in short periods of time... but that's not OUR galaxy. What if that technology ONLY works there?

What if the Force only works there?

Now you are following the Star Wreck - in the Pirkinning reasoning ;)
(a full length fanmovie which basicly puts Star Trek against B5 - where the ST faction discovers their shields do not function in the B5 universe).

Whipple Shields are used on RL spacecraft to prevent damage from sand-sized hypervelocity particles and micrometeoroids.

'Prevent' is a little optimistic.

Having seen the way SW ships are supposed to be ably to bounce around in a system, we aren't talking about the kinds of intrinsic velocities that mere 'padding' can really have hopes of dealing with. Plus - given their construction, little attention seems to have been paid to any considerable buffer.

'Prevent' is a little optimistic.
But it does. All that gets damaged is the shield - but it's redundancy personified and barely loses any effectiveness.

Plus - given their construction, little attention seems to have been paid to any considerable buffer.
That is indeed a weakness. Space opera, wadd'ya 'spect.



Having seen the way SW ships are supposed to be ably to bounce around in a system, we aren't talking about the kinds of intrinsic velocities that mere 'padding' can really have hopes of dealing with.
That's the beauty of physics. Whipple Shields are much better at this than any uber-armors the non-engineer 'sci'-fi writers could even imagine.

It capitalizes on the power of two formulas, E=mv^2/2 and P=mv. A 10 km/s particle takes 100 times more energy to launch than a 1 km/s one, but has only 10 times more impulse. Thus, while energy-wise, a 100,000 km/s, 1 milligram sand particle ~equals a 1 km/s 10-ton shell (two Dora shells), impulse-wise it's only like a 100-gram shell from a 20mm cannon.

What a Whipple Shield does is not simply absorb the energy, but greatly reduce its mechanical component in each layer, exponentially. Each layer increases mass, and transfers only impulse, while the energy is mostly dissipated into the outer space or converted to heat. The heat only helps it function, as deeper layers are then hit by gas, distributing energy over a wider area and dissipating a lot of it outwards.

As a result, what would normally be like a faster version of the 800mm Dora AP shell hitting the ship, blowing through any RL armor, ends up only equaling a small cannon shell squished into a pancake before the impact, and can be stopped by just some basic structure.

But it does. All that gets damaged is the shield - but it's redundancy personified and barely loses any effectiveness.

That is indeed a weakness. Space opera, wadd'ya 'spect.

That's the beauty of physics. Whipple Shields are much better at this than any uber-armors the non-engineer 'sci'-fi writers could even imagine.

It capitalizes on the power of two formulas, E=mv^2/2 and P=mv. A 10 km/s particle takes 100 times more energy to launch than a 1 km/s one, but has only 10 times more impulse. Thus, while energy-wise, a 100,000 km/s, 1 milligram sand particle ~equals a 1 km/s 10-ton shell (two Dora shells), impulse-wise it's only like a 100-gram shell from a 20mm cannon.

What a Whipple Shield does is not simply absorb the energy, but greatly reduce its mechanical component in each layer, exponentially. Each layer increases mass, and transfers only impulse, while the energy is mostly dissipated into the outer space or converted to heat. The heat only helps it function, as deeper layers are then hit by gas, distributing energy over a wider area and dissipating a lot of it outwards.

As a result, what would normally be like a faster version of the 800mm Dora AP shell hitting the ship, blowing through any RL armor, ends up only equaling a small cannon shell squished into a pancake before the impact, and can be stopped by just some basic structure.

I was rather more thinking of sand as a passive weapon (Sand, dust... cheetoes. Whatever) cast over vast areas, basically hanging in space waiting for stupidly-unshielded forces to come springing in.

Admitted, theoretically, and unshielded vessel could probably tailgate a shielded one, and be relatively safe, but I was rather more thinking of the idea of a huge fleet sneaking into a solar system and discovering a dirty trick.

And - while one sand grain might not be a big deal, after a while it might get a little trying. Even more so if you were able to deliberately drop huge quantities directly.... (ooh, new advantage to the teleport crowd).

Vault 10 knows him some physics. Nice fingers of god avatar BTW. I still say that some time-travel or trek's amazing knowledge of any beings genome would win any war. Assuming midichlorians are native to Wars-space then some doctor from Section 31 could probably make a virus that killed people with midichlorians. Since everyone has midichlorians in Star Wars than that = total universal genocide. A respectable killcount by any standards.

Interesting bit of Death Star info here.

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2002/01/10deathstar.html

Given that both universes work on a totally different set of 'physics', and neither is particularly realistic, I'd call it a no-score draw. Although, I think Star Trek should probably be docked points for trying to pretend it somehow involves science.

And that's why Star Wars would win. It is a god-mode. All the time. Trek often tries to stay a bit realistic. Star Wars never gave a shit.

Pretty much. This entire thread is a bit like comparing Ultimate Marvel and Silver-Age DC, with a few clowns in the background shouting "Doctor Manhattan would kill them all!"

I was rather more thinking of sand as a passive weapon (Sand, dust... cheetoes. Whatever) cast over vast areas, basically hanging in space waiting for stupidly-unshielded forces to come springing in.
That's only if they are entirely unshielded. Even a RL shield would defend against sand, dust or small trash.


And - while one sand grain might not be a big deal, after a while it might get a little trying. Even more so if you were able to deliberately drop huge quantities directly.... (ooh, new advantage to the teleport crowd).
Still will be deflected, absorbed and dissipated.

Now, some big bricks - that can work. But they can be attacked by APS.



Vault 10 knows him some physics. Nice fingers of god avatar BTW. Engineering background often helps... even in things that don't matter. :-)

BTW, I usually heard people call it "Eyes of God". Some assume it's from a movie/animation/picture. In reality, though, it's of a more evil origin - a photo of US Navy testing a multiple-warhead ballistic missile.
Feels a bit thrilling, though, when thinking that then this association sort of reflects on how we are playing God, ready to surpass every biblical catastrophe in destruction.


Interesting bit of Death Star info here.
http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2002/01/10deathstar.html
Well, though, it's all well explained in Austin Powers. They teach it in the Evil University of Evil: any way of killing the heroes is not Evil enough if it leaves no avenue of escape.

That's only if they are entirely unshielded. Even a RL shield would defend against sand, dust or small trash.

Still will be deflected, absorbed and dissipated.

Now, some big bricks - that can work. But they can be attacked by APS.


No, I still disagree, actually. A big brick or a peanut, if you fly into it at the right ratio, they're the same. Welll... actually, you're going to get more penetration from the peanut, because it's striking over a smaller surface area, and F=ma.

You could circumvent the problem by flying slow. You could circumvent the problem by using some kind of immaterial defence.

You could maybe ignore the problem if you had a bit of shielding, but you'd be gaining attrition damage.

The real advantage in defence would be against the leading edge of barely subluminal craft.

No, I still disagree, actually. A big brick or a peanut, if you fly into it at the right ratio, they're the same. Welll... actually, you're going to get more penetration from the peanut, because it's striking over a smaller surface area, and F=ma.
This is relevant to the force acting upon the striking object. In this case, it will be higher for the small object - and dissipate it faster.

So bigger mass wins hands down. The brick will penetrate much further. Even at normal velocities, like 2 km/s, penetration is roughly proportional to the object length. And if it's over 50-200 km/s, there will be energy spreading in the outer layer, nearly equalizing the area, thus penetration will be closer to L^1.5.


You could circumvent the problem by flying slow.
That's true. But it kinda kills the tactical advantages of speed.

You could maybe ignore the problem if you had a bit of shielding, but you'd be gaining attrition damage.
Only over a lot of time.
The real advantage in defence would be against the leading edge of barely subluminal craft.[/QUOTE]

This is relevant to the force acting upon the striking object. In this case, it will be higher for the small object - and dissipate it faster.


'Striking object'? Which object strikes which is irrelevent, since the calculation is based on intrinsic velocity/acceleration.

Each will apply a force to the other, based on the intrinsic acceleration - if a man can run at 600 mph and a bullet can fly at 600 mph, it doesn't matter which one of them is moving, and which one is stationary, the projectile is going to punch a hole straight through the unfortunate soft flesh.

Hence - why even sand would make a good passive weapon for barely subluminal vessels.


So bigger mass wins hands down. The brick will penetrate much further. Even at normal velocities, like 2 km/s, penetration is roughly proportional to the object length. And if it's over 50-200 km/s, there will be energy spreading in the outer layer, nearly equalizing the area, thus penetration will be closer to L^1.5.


A brick might penetrate further than sand, at the same velocity - if it's mass is proportionately larger than it's surface area is - with reference to the sand. If the proportion (mass to area) is roughly equal, and the acceleration is assumed as equal, then the penetrating depth should be approximately equal. Of course that ignores factors like structural integrity.

'Striking object'? Which object strikes which is irrelevent, since the calculation is based on intrinsic velocity/acceleration.
The striking object here is the one with less mass.

Each will apply a force to the other, based on the intrinsic acceleration - if a man can run at 600 mph and a bullet can fly at 600 mph, it doesn't matter which one of them is moving, and which one is stationary,
More precisely, none is moving or stationary, these are only relative terms.


A brick might penetrate further than sand, at the same velocity - if it's mass is proportionately larger than it's surface area is - with reference to the sand. If the proportion (mass to area) is roughly equal, and the acceleration is assumed as equal, then the penetrating depth should be approximately equal. Of course that ignores factors like structural integrity.
And factors like hypervelocity or Whipple Shields. At hypervelocity impact, all energy and impulse expand quickly with the armor, making surface area largely irrelevant as long as it's reasonably small (i.e. it's not a styrofoam pancake).
As for Whipple Shields, part of their job is increasing the projectile's surface area. They effectively eliminate the significance of surface area and energy, leaving it all to impulse.

Thus, with a Whipple Shield, and at a velocity where a 100mm brick can go a solid ten meters, a 1mm sand particle would barely penetrate a centimeter.

And factors like hypervelocity or Whipple Shields. At hypervelocity impact, all energy and impulse expand quickly with the armor, making surface area largely irrelevant as long as it's reasonably small (i.e. it's not a styrofoam pancake).


A hit at hypervelocity also has other effects - like turning whatever material shield you are using (which is why I suggested immaterial shields, at barely-subluminal velocity) into a liquid (or gas, or plasma...)...

So - there are two effects I'm talking about - both the straightforward impact, and the ablative effect.

I appreciate that 'mundane' hypervelocity impacts can be withheld from doing too much damage, for a while - but flying a barely subluminal craft into even a fine mist of sand would render your shielding (no matter what kind) fairly inconsequential in a very short period of time.


As for Whipple Shields, part of their job is increasing the projectile's surface area. They effectively eliminate the significance of surface area and energy, leaving it all to impulse.

Thus, with a Whipple Shield, and at a velocity where a 100mm brick can go a solid ten meters, a 1mm sand particle would barely penetrate a centimeter.

Again, you're talking about relatively mundane velocities. At hypervelocities, even if your particle is small and light, it's still knocking holes in a layer of shield - indeed, that's the intent of the design. And that's good for trawling through a comet tail, maybe... or reentry. But, how does it fare when your intrinsic velocity is only fractionally subluminal? Each single dot of sand may be liquifying a whole layer of your shielding, or more.

Even a light density of particulate matter, with an intrinsic velocity of - not a few thousand kilometres per hour, but maybe a quarter of a million kilometres per hour...

A hit at hypervelocity also has other effects - like turning whatever material shield you are using (which is why I suggested immaterial shields, at barely-subluminal velocity) into a liquid (or gas, or plasma...)...
That's the whole point of this kind of shield. Instead of damaging the vessel, the impacting object expends its energy converting the shield into hot, high-pressure gas, and then releasing this heat and pressure into the space.

Non-matter (fields are material) shields are either way too weak to have any impact, IRL, or can't be viewed as anything but magic at our scientific level, and magic always beats non-magic.



I appreciate that 'mundane' hypervelocity impacts can be withheld from doing too much damage, for a while - but flying a barely subluminal craft into even a fine mist of sand would render your shielding (no matter what kind) fairly inconsequential in a very short period of time.
A modern craft, yes. But the space-fantasy craft have size to match.

At a reasonably unreasonable speed of 1e8 m/s, for instance, 1 ton of sand would have an energy of 5e18 J, and impulse of 1e11 kg*m/s. If the field spreads out to 1 km^2, and the target has 1,000m^2 (32x32m) of 20,000 kg/m^2 armor (about the level a WWII-sized battleship would have if it took the hits to the front), this translates to 5e12J and 1e5 kg*m/s per each m^2.

After a complete absorption by a Whipple Shield (assuming it's 50% of the armor by weight), that energy would be reduced to 5e3J, or just 5kJ - a trivial matter. If it was absorbed by 1% of the shield, leaving 99.5-99.8% of it intact (50-80% will just deform, not ablate), that would be 500kJ, the equivalent of a 120-gram TNT explosive device.
This wouldn't be just trivial to the armor behind - it wouldn't even be noticeable.

Even a 1000 times greater amount of sand would result in energy way insufficient to deal any damage to the armor behind the shields. 120kg of TNT is not enough to blow a hole in a WWII battleship, especially if it's distributed.


Each single dot of sand may be liquifying a whole layer of your shielding, or more.
More like liquefies a large hole in the first layer, a small hole in the second, barely pierces the third, and stays on the fourth.

But there are hundreds if not thousands of layers. And the material of the shields is not all lost - most of it stays there, just in less efficient shape.

That's the whole point of this kind of shield. Instead of damaging the vessel, the impacting object expends its energy converting the shield into hot, high-pressure gas, and then releasing this heat and pressure into the space.


Not strictly true - the impacting object probably expends most of it's energy on the first shield level, converting the shield to liquid/gas/plasma which could continue to penetrate for several levels, as well as losing substance into the intra-level spaces, and back out into space.


Non-matter (fields are material) shields are either way too weak to have any impact, IRL, or can't be viewed as anything but magic at our scientific level, and magic always beats non-magic.


Well, with current technology, you could certainly generate a plasma 'material' field that might be effective, but - yes, non material fields aren't strictly practical. But then - we're not JUST discussing our current technology - the context was conflict between SW and ST, but I chose to address an extremely lowtech 'weapon'.

You could argue for - at least - 24th century tech.


A modern craft, yes. But the space-fantasy craft have size to match.


Like a TIE-fighter? X-Wing?

Neither is even the size of a modern jet.

And, to be honest, neither really shows the slightest armour, Whipple or otherwise. :)


At a reasonably unreasonable speed of 1e8 m/s, for instance, 1 ton of sand would have an energy of 5e18 J, and impulse of 1e11 kg*m/s. If the field spreads out to 1 km^2, and the target has 1,000m^2 (32x32m) of 20,000 kg/m^2 armor (about the level a WWII-sized battleship would have if it took the hits to the front), this translates to 5e12J and 1e5 kg*m/s per each m^2.


Well, first - both the vessels I just mentioned (at the very least) show lack of any armour - certainly lack of heavy armour. And both have huge design flaws in context of space debris - to whit - both have vital systems either front-and-centre, or front-canopy.

The idea of making a parallel to modern battleships taking it on the nose seems like wishful thinking.


After a complete absorption by a Whipple Shield (assuming it's 50% of the armor by weight),


Why would we do that? Where are these values coming from?

Going back to my first question - why are you assuming solid shells or Whipple shields on these vessels at all? Or any armour?

Pulling 50% out of a hat seems a little random.


...that energy would be reduced to 5e3J, or just 5kJ - a trivial matter. If it was absorbed by 1% of the shield, leaving 99.5-99.8% of it intact (50-80% will just deform, not ablate),


I don't accept that - barely subluminal material incident on the shield is likely to be generating a yield close to nuclear fission. No matter how small the particles are, it seems unlikely you're just going to be painting over scratches when (if) your ship makes it home.


...that would be 500kJ, the equivalent of a 120-gram TNT explosive device.
This wouldn't be just trivial to the armor behind - it wouldn't even be noticeable.


120 grams of TNT might be noticable on the cockpit... even if we accept those numbers.


Even a 1000 times greater amount of sand would result in energy way insufficient to deal any damage to the armor behind the shields. 120kg of TNT is not enough to blow a hole in a WWII battleship, especially if it's distributed.


120 kg of TNT (or liquid hydrogen, it doesn't matter) will pop straight through a battleship and out the other side, pretty much, if you throw it at it fast enough.


More like liquefies a large hole in the first layer, a small hole in the second, barely pierces the third, and stays on the fourth.


Maybe.

How big are these layers? Are you using Stardust for your template? Are you talking about .3 kilometers per second?


But there are hundreds if not thousands of layers. And the material of the shields is not all lost - most of it stays there, just in less efficient shape.

Again - not buying it. But even were it so, 'less efficient shape' is suicide to that kind of armour.

Vault 10 did you mention something about the impact converting the plating into a gas? wouldn't that make the plates a sort of reactive armor? It would be the kind of thing that would work against sand and small particles but probably not bricks. In order for anything to navigate space at speed it needs the capability to absorb or deflect the junk that happens to be there. Since we're talking Sci-Fi, I'd like to see if someone can source something that states how the Imperial ships handle the junk in space.

The only thing I can think of is in Return of the Jedi where the A-Wing is about to crash into the bridge of the Executor and the commanding officer demands that the crew "Reinforce, forward shielding" this suggests to me that the CO believes the shields will protect the ship from a car-sized fighter hitting it.

Mind you, the Executor was the second-largest ship in the Battle of Endor next to the Death Star 2. However, it was downed by an impact equivalent to a Jet Fighter hitting at Mach 5. It seems Vader's ship had no secondary bridge. Perhaps the shields only protect against impacts when they're at a high-enough "power Level".

Not either.

scenario 1: the borg will pwn, Star Trek wins. i don't care how many ships the Empire has or how much of the galaxy they control. and that's not counting Q or any other such supreme being

scenario 2: just the Federation and associates would be outnumbered pretty badly. they'd have some tech advantages (without going into the relative speed of ships or power of weapons, cos that'll make my head explode if i have to read about it one more time)... the empire would probably snatch it, but there'd be heavy losses.


http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWhi2.html

I agree with most of that, except perhaps the bit about the Borg being a significant factor. Their ships are too far behind tech wise to win a strait fight, besides the fact that the Empire's biggest dreadnaughts are much larger than any Cube we've seen.

Actually, their is one way they could do quite a bit of damage: that nanoprobe bomb they were building in Voyager. Think of it as a pandemic that, instead of killing its victims or incapacitating them, turns them into enemy soldiers. The Borg have shown cloaking abillities (I think), so they good probably drop this on some unsheilded outer rim dust balls and let it spread through Imperial speed, aided by the rediculous speed of hyperspace.

Senario one in any case goes to the Federation by virtue of Q and his fellows.

With senario two I was tempted to vote for the MAD option, given things like those sun destroying torpedos from Generations. The Romulans, at least, were persuing those, and I can see both the Klingons and the Romulans being ruthless enough to go for MAD if they had no way to win. However, given slower ships, it would be dificult for even cloaked ships to hit much of the Empire in return. Its just too vast. Besides, the Empire would retalliate with the worst genocide the quadrent had ever seen. For anyone who doubts the Empire's willingness or abillity to carry this out, Alderan should be proof enough. However, here is a brief list of Imperial superweapons:

The Sun Crusher. Fires torpedos that destroy stars

The Galaxy Gun (stupid name I know). Fires planet devestating hyperspace missles

At least three partially or fully completed Death Stars over the years.

A bioengineered virus to kill non-humans

The Superlasers on Eclipse and Sovereighn class Star Destroyers

The standard guns on a Star Destroyer, capable of conducting a Base Delta Zero opperation (the sterillization of an entire world to the point where its harder to terraform than a naturally dead world). The Empire has over 25000 of these at its height.

In the end, I think we said a mostly destroyed area of space where the Trek side had been, and an ultimately victorious Empire lacking much left to take over. The Empire would remain intact however by virtue of most of its territory being out of reach of attack.

Scenario 1: Trek wins. They got the Q. They got the Borg. They got shapeshifters and telepaths and all that great stuff.

Scenario 2: Federation wins. Though it would seem that imperials would win, they wouldn't. They would bwe a match for the Federation. The Federation has far more powerful shields that have been stated in ST episodes "Lasers? They won't even penatrate the navigational sensors. We have nothing to worry about." -Geordi La Forge in a ST episode when tehy meet ships with Laser weapons. The death star would blow up the ships, but there is only one and it could easily be destroyed by the Federation's far more manueverable ships taht could easily just avoid the main gun. It would only take a few minutes of bombardment to destroy the Death star with the photon torpedos. Imperial tech is low compared to Trek tech.

I agree with most of that, except perhaps the bit about the Borg being a significant factor. Their ships are too far behind tech wise to win a strait fight, besides the fact that the Empire's biggest dreadnaughts are much larger than any Cube we've seen.

Actually, their is one way they could do quite a bit of damage: that nanoprobe bomb they were building in Voyager. Think of it as a pandemic that, instead of killing its victims or incapacitating them, turns them into enemy soldiers. The Borg have shown cloaking abillities (I think), so they good probably drop this on some unsheilded outer rim dust balls and let it spread through Imperial speed, aided by the rediculous speed of hyperspace.

Senario one in any case goes to the Federation by virtue of Q and his fellows.

With senario two I was tempted to vote for the MAD option, given things like those sun destroying torpedos from Generations. The Romulans, at least, were persuing those, and I can see both the Klingons and the Romulans being ruthless enough to go for MAD if they had no way to win. However, given slower ships, it would be dificult for even cloaked ships to hit much of the Empire in return. Its just too vast. Besides, the Empire would retalliate with the worst genocide the quadrent had ever seen. For anyone who doubts the Empire's willingness or abillity to carry this out, Alderan should be proof enough. However, here is a brief list of Imperial superweapons:

The Sun Crusher. Fires torpedos that destroy stars

The Galaxy Gun (stupid name I know). Fires planet devestating hyperspace missles

At least three partially or fully completed Death Stars over the years.

A bioengineered virus to kill non-humans

The Superlasers on Eclipse and Sovereighn class Star Destroyers

The standard guns on a Star Destroyer, capable of conducting a Base Delta Zero opperation (the sterillization of an entire world to the point where its harder to terraform than a naturally dead world). The Empire has over 25000 of these at its height.

In the end, I think we said a mostly destroyed area of space where the Trek side had been, and an ultimately victorious Empire lacking much left to take over. The Empire would remain intact however by virtue of most of its territory being out of reach of attack.

You forgot the World Devastators.

For scenario 1, I think we can boil it down to a competition between a representative ship from both sides. A Borg Cube vs. the Death Star.

If we are using representative ships, then they should be comparable. The Death Star's the best its side has to offer, so it should be pitted against something equally formidable. Say, a species 8472 bioship (they beat the Borg like an aircraft carrier against a 19th century ironclad). If your going to use representative ships, they should be of comparable types. Fighter vs fighter, cruiser vs cruiser, super weapon vs super weapon, etc.

The cube would no doubt be destroyed by the death stars superior fire power as soon as the empire determined the cube a threat. However, after numerous cubes, the Borg would no doubt adapt to the death star, and so it would be useless.

Their adaptation didn't save them from 8472, or the power of an entire Federation fleet directed against a weak spot in First Contact.

But, we're only talking one cube vs. one death star. Given what we know about the Borg, it is reasonable to assume that the Borg, upon seeing this new, exotic technology, would attempt to assimilate it immediately. As such, upon first seeing the death star, the Borg would beam a large group of drones aboard the death star and attempt to set up a hive and assimilate it. Borg transporters would be easily able to beam through the death star, since the death star has no shields to counter trasnporter technology, the one advantage Star Trek has, the Borg would be successful in getting aboard the death star. Stormtroopers blasters would become hideously uselss against the Borg after a few shots. I'd estimate the entire death star falling under complete assimilation in less than a few hours. Any Federation ship would fair much better under such an attack from the Borg, because they are familiar with the borg, and also shields.

Not nessisarily standerd operating procedure for the Borg. When first meeting the Enterprise D, they sent a couple drones aboard to investigate, then sampled a peice of the hull. All very methodical. They won't have that luxury on the Empire.

Once they do beam aboard, they'll find more than blaster fire to greet them. Stormtroopers will also carry thermal detonators, and they'll be willing to go hand to hand with rifel buts if nessissary. Federation troops held their ground in hand to hand in First Contact. Stormtroopers are loyal and obediant. They won't run. Try assimallating them throught their armour, by the way.

One more question: if Vader used mind trick on a drone, could he control the entire collective?

So, in Star Trek vs. Star Wars, Star Trek wins because of the Borg.

Only if they employ much more stealthy methods(cloaked ships and atomospheric nanoprobe dispersal). A full frontal attack will just lose ships most likely.

But in the Federation vs. the Empire, it becomes a little more complicated. I'm of the opinion that the Federation would win. Whilst the empire has many more advantages, both technological and in size, the Federation has the best advantages - transporters, and starfleet training. Stormtroopers have the accuracy of a blind rabbit, starfleet officers have to deal with Klingons. All a Federation ship would need to do is beam a few away teams aboard an Imperial ship, and they would run circles around the stormtroopers, while the Federation ship either cloaks or warps out. Moreover, transphasic torpedos would prove devastating to the empire.

Name the Star fleet vessel which carries tens of thousands of security. And name one time Star fleet has issued decent armour to its troops. And the Stormtroopers often missed when they had been ordered to let their enemies go.

As has also been mentioned, the Romulans have the ability to set a star into supernova, which is far more powerful than the mere ability to destroy a planet. Phasers are also likely to be more effective against lightsabers than blasters have proven, so the force would not be much of an ally in the battle.

Just my thoughts.

As my name suggests, I am the last to underestimate the Romulans.;) I believe that, presuming a wormhole linking the two sides, a preemptive attack by cloaked ships, perhaps armed with such torpedos, is the best shot the Trek side has. However, for the sake of strict honesty I will point out that we don't know if the Romulans ever got a working weapon. Also, the failiur of such an attack would prompt a truely horrific retaliation. Finally, the Federation, at least, would not be ruthless enough to make such a strike preemptively, and would likely try to prevent the Romulans from doing so.

Scenario 1: Trek wins. They got the Q. They got the Borg. They got shapeshifters and telepaths and all that great stuff.

Scenario 2: Federation wins. Though it would seem that imperials would win, they wouldn't. They would bwe a match for the Federation. The Federation has far more powerful shields that have been stated in ST episodes "Lasers? They won't even penatrate the navigational sensors. We have nothing to worry about." -Geordi La Forge in a ST episode when tehy meet ships with Laser weapons. The death star would blow up the ships, but there is only one and it could easily be destroyed by the Federation's far more manueverable ships taht could easily just avoid the main gun. It would only take a few minutes of bombardment to destroy the Death star with the photon torpedos. Imperial tech is low compared to Trek tech.

Oh dear, the old laser argument. If I had a dollar for every time this one's been shot down...

Just because its called a laser doesn't mean it actually is. You have to look at how it actually behaves. A laser would be:

a) invisible in space, and

b) moving at lightspeed. Star Wars "lasers" demonstrate neither of these charactaristics.

It's like saying that because we call her a star, Angelina Jolei must be a fusion powered source of radiation. In other words, its just a name.

How many of those superweapons require a Hyperspace route to the planet? Also, why is it that the teensy useless things in Star Wars tend to destroy the big huge super-devastating-laser-smashing-killbox?

Death Star 1, X-wing
Death Star 2, More X-wings and a suddenly awesome Millennium Falcon (In A New Hope the MF was crap at non-hyperspace speeds.)
Galaxy Gun, R2-D2
World Devastators don't quite count. A: there's more than one. B: they're slow. C:they could be vulnerable to a bomb on the planet they're sucking on.

It was said, in DS9 I believe, that Section 31 defends the Federation in ways the people of the Federation can't know about. They're as ruthless as the Empire and smarter than a truckload of Stephen Hawkings. Odds are they'd handle the problem. Also, time-travel=God Mode times infinity.

How many of those superweapons require a Hyperspace route to the planet? Also, why is it that the teensy useless things in Star Wars tend to destroy the big huge super-devastating-laser-smashing-killbox?

Death Star 1, X-wing
Death Star 2, More X-wings and a suddenly awesome Millennium Falcon (In A New Hope the MF was crap at non-hyperspace speeds.)
Galaxy Gun, R2-D2
World Devastators don't quire count. A: there's more than one. B: they're slow. C:they could be vulnerable to a bomb on the planet they're sucking on.

Why should the World Devestators not count because their's more than one?

Yes, the Empire's ships went down down to little fighters a little too often. In the case of the Death Stars, however, I would point out that the Federation probably lacks ships with the manuverabillity, and pilots with the skill, to make those attacks the way the rebels did.

Their adaptation didn't save them from 8472, or the power of an entire Federation fleet directed against a weak spot in First Contact.
The whole point of 8472 was that they WERE something that could take on the Borg. And, if you look at it, they played merry hell with the SW:EU as well. As for First Contact, the Federation fleet was loosing, yet again, until Enterprise showed up. Now, Enterprise had three advantages over the Borg. One, Captain Picard could hear them and was able to use that knowledge to pinpoint a weakness. The Empire would not have that advantage. Two, Enterprise is of course one of the most powerful ships in the fleet and even then, it couldn't make it work without Picard's internal knowledge of the Borg as well as the rest of the fleet (Including the Millennium Falcon); not to mention that the destruction of that cube might have been the Borg's plan all along. They don't notice the loss of a cube after all. And three, you forgot that Fate (and the writers) protect fools, little children, and ships named Enterprise. Of COURSE the Enterprise was going to win, the movie would be over if it didn't!

Not nessisarily standerd operating procedure for the Borg. When first meeting the Enterprise D, they sent a couple drones aboard to investigate, then sampled a peice of the hull. All very methodical. They won't have that luxury on the Empire.
That was Q-Who, the Borg changed their MO to assimilation, hence their standard hail.

Once they do beam aboard, they'll find more than blaster fire to greet them. Stormtroopers will also carry thermal detonators, and they'll be willing to go hand to hand with rifel buts if nessissary. Federation troops held their ground in hand to hand in First Contact. Stormtroopers are loyal and obediant. They won't run. Try assimallating them throught their armour, by the way.
And they would have, what? Maybe one or two shots before the collective adapts and all other blaster fire becomes useless? As for their armor, as I've already pointed out, those things have cloth or rubber joints. I'm pretty sure that the Borg can penetrate it.

One more question: if Vader used mind trick on a drone, could he control the entire collective?
Probably not, he would have to control trillions of drones that make up the collective. It's more probable that the collective would be able to exert its will on Vader than the other way around.

Name the Star fleet vessel which carries tens of thousands of security. And name one time Star fleet has issued decent armour to its troops. And the Stormtroopers often missed when they had been ordered to let their enemies go.
They must have been ordered to let them go a lot then. :p In any case, Stormtrooper armor hasn't been shown to be too effective. A single blaster hit will kill them so I've never been sure as to why they even bother, except that it looks intimidating.

Why should the World Devestators not count because their's more than one?

Yes, the Empire's ships went down down to little fighters a little too often. In the case of the Death Stars, however, I would point out that the Federation probably lacks ships with the manuverabillity, and pilots with the skill, to make those attacks the way the rebels did.
Why would you assume so? The Federation does indeed have fighters and the Klingons are well known for their piloting abilities.

Well, the world devastators do their job right fine, but when they attacked Mon Cal in massive numbers they took long enough to actually devastate the world that news was able to get out, a fleet was assembled, and the fleet was able to enter the battle. To me that is not up to snuff in Star Wars superweapons, especially compared to the insta-kill weapons of the D-Star and the sneakyness of the Galaxy Gun.

Since when? Remember, we're not using the books here.

Its my fault I suppose for not stating this up front.

However, when in doubt, assume that we are following the official policy layed out by those in control of creating either universe.

For Star Trek, that means the books are gennerally not official. Only the films and TV shows generally count.

For Star Wars, that means we can count the books as long as they don't contradict something higher on the scale. If I recall correctly, the scale goes through G, C, and I levels(don't ask me why they call them that).

G: Any thing directly from George Lucas: That's the movies, then the novelizations and lastly the radio versions.

C: Other stuff, including Expanded universe books. Games are about at the bottom, with story line being official, but gameplay ballancing generally not regarded so.

I(infinities, I think it means): non-official alternate universe stuff, like if someone wrote a story about Luke joining the Empire and ruling the universe at Vader's side. This catagory is not officially valid.

Status of the new Clone Wars series, last I checked, was hovering between G and C.

Their, I hope I got that right. If not, feel free to correct me.

Not strictly true - the impacting object probably expends most of it's energy on the first shield level, converting the shield to liquid/gas/plasma which could continue to penetrate for several levels, as well as losing substance into the intra-level spaces, and back out into space.
Ehr... So what is the difference? The energy is expended on the shield, most of it on the first layer.
Yes, and that's the point. The more "overkill" it acts on the shield, the less damage it deals. Gas isn't as good at penetration as a small solid object. Over a few layers, the potentially devastating projectile is reduced to poof.


You could argue for - at least - 24th century tech. That would go into the realm of magic, and laws of physics as we know it don't apply there.

TBH, I think by 24st century we'll have some He3 mining on Moon, a research base on Mars, and robotic expeditions to Europa.


Like a TIE-fighter? X-Wing?
Neither is even the size of a modern jet.
And, to be honest, neither really shows the slightest armour, Whipple or otherwise. Well, these are vulnerable indeed. But it's an oversight. Wrong term, though. Being a space opera, all SW tech is one huge oversight.


Why would we do that? Where are these values coming from? [...]
Pulling 50% out of a hat seems a little random.
50% seems like a fair assumption. I'd probably make it more like 70% at PMT or 80% at MT, though. But I'd give 20% to potential other protection systems (APS, shields).


I don't accept that - barely subluminal material incident on the shield is likely to be generating a yield close to nuclear fission. No matter how small the particles are, it seems unlikely you're just going to be painting over scratches when (if) your ship makes it home.
You're going to be replacing the shield panels. If it's just sand, only outer panels, assuming they're modular.
The yield is much greater than nuclear, but the higher the velocity, the better a Whipple Shield dissipates the energy. It's exponential.
If one layer gives a 5x mass increase (i.e. generates 5 grams of spall per 1 gram of matter), then it takes 3 layers to slow down a 8 km/s HEAT jet or orbital projectile to harmless 40 m/s. To slow down a 1,000 km/s projectile to the same velocity it, however, doesn't take 375 layers - only 6.

And 10 layers will slow down a near-subluminal (say 0.7c) projectile to same speed. In the process, these layers will reduce the projectile's energy about 10 million times. Only 0.00001% of it will reach the ship. The rest just blows off into space, as high-velocity mater, thermal radiation, whatever.

[ Though these are perfect-case averages - actually you'll need redundancy to stop the heavier fragments, so 20+ layers. But it's still exponential. ]


120 kg of TNT (or liquid hydrogen, it doesn't matter) will pop straight through a battleship and out the other side, pretty much, if you throw it at it fast enough.
Well, first of all, I meant the explosive energy. Second, not really... hypervelocity impacts lead to explosion on contact. Even after contacting the skin, there won't be 120kg of whatever it was, there will be an internal solid-matter explosion, and spall from it flying in all directions.


How big are these layers? Are you using Stardust for your template? Are you talking about .3 kilometers per second?
100km/s-100,000km/s.
No, not necessarily the RL shields, they're just proof of concept.

The layers should be between half and full thickness of the striking object, assuming equal density. That is, if dealing with 1mm sand particles and aluminum shield, they should be 0.6-1.1mm thick each. For full effect, 1.1mm, but more thinner layers work better, as long as they're not far thinner than the projectile (like 1/10).


Again - not buying it. But even were it so, 'less efficient shape' is suicide to that kind of armour.
Well, NASA is buying it. That is, if it isn't just a branch of the Round Earth Conspiracy, but that's another topic.

Yes, losing the shape means losing most of the effectiveness. Still, repeat hits are not nearly as damaging to Whipple Shields as, for instance, to tank armor.

And the "superdense materials" most FT NSers use are outright futile as protection compared to what's already used.

Yes, the Empire's ships went down down to little fighters a little too often. In the case of the Death Stars, however, I would point out that the Federation probably lacks ships with the manuverabillity, and pilots with the skill, to make those attacks the way the rebels did.

You've not watched much DS9 then have you?

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Federation_attack_fighter

Vault 10 did you mention something about the impact converting the plating into a gas? wouldn't that make the plates a sort of reactive armor? It would be the kind of thing that would work against sand and small particles but probably not bricks.
Can be seen as reactive armor, except using the projectile's energy to dissipate it. Works against bricks as well, just gets more damaged and penetrated more deeply. But still ends up better than solid armor, until the speeds get lower than the speed of sound in solid matter (~5km/s), or the projectile gets too large (over 10-20 times the layer thickness).

In order for anything to navigate space at speed it needs the capability to absorb or deflect the junk that happens to be there.
Well, if I was doing it, I'd make at least a three-stage system. Inner armor and outer shell connected by a spaceframe, Whipple Shields mounted between them.

The outer shell, a thick solid block, would absorb all small particle impacts with nearly no total damage. They can crater a surface, but eventually the craters just overlap to zero total. The Whipple Shield carries out the already described function. Finally, the inner high-strength armor stops the spall or absorbs the heaviest impacts.

Next you gotta solve the problem of seeing to navigate and weapons and gobbledygook like that. From a Sci-Fi writers standpoint when someone asks the question "why doesn't the ship get damaged by debris when it navigates space?" the answer is naturally navigational deflectors. They're powered by energy so they can be easily upgraded without changing setpeices, they can be altered on the fly, and of course they can be plot devices.

For our purposes we must ignore the factors of plot and focus on what hard evidence we can. Something that is difficult in Star Wars. However, it's not nearly as difficult as the Warhammer world, where anything new is crap and anything that is handmade is the most epic item of it's kind ever, especially if it's handmade and really really old.

How many of those superweapons require a Hyperspace route to the planet? Also, why is it that the teensy useless things in Star Wars tend to destroy the big huge super-devastating-laser-smashing-killbox?


Drama, duh. Come on, that's so fucking obvious.

It wouldn't be quite the same if the Rebels built their own bigass superweapon to kill the death star, would it? It's much more dramatic if the Rebels are vastly weaker underdogs and they come up with the win. That's why. The whole purpose to having the death star was so this big monolith of totalitarianism could get blown up by a plucky idealistic farm kid, saving the day and all that.

You've not watched much DS9 then have you?

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Federation_attack_fighter

No, because Deep Space Nine sucks.

Well, the world devastators do their job right fine, but when they attacked Mon Cal in massive numbers they took long enough to actually devastate the world that news was able to get out, a fleet was assembled, and the fleet was able to enter the battle. To me that is not up to snuff in Star Wars superweapons, especially compared to the insta-kill weapons of the D-Star and the sneakyness of the Galaxy Gun.

The World Devastators are, to be fair, not the same kind of superweapons that the Death Stars, the Sun Crusher (the Empire's best superweapon, IMO), and the Galaxy Gun are.

They're more terror weapons than superweapons. They're armored enough to resist quite a pounding, and they're fairly self sustaining once in operation. Basically, the whole point of them is to be scary, by dragging out the destruction of a planet.

No, because Deep Space Nine sucks.

Blasphemer.

Blasphemer.

It's just not up to par. I'm sorry, but I just don't see the appeal.

It's just not up to par. I'm sorry, but I just don't see the appeal.

The appeal is that it's that gritty, realistic universe that you like Star Wars for. Everything isn't sterile and utopian. They're real people who have to make real decisions that don't always end up working for the best. Plus, it's a serial, so there's actual character development and relationships and growth.

The appeal is that it's that gritty, realistic universe that you like Star Wars for. Everything isn't sterile and utopian. They're real people who have to make real decisions that don't always end up working for the best. Plus, it's a serial, so there's actual character development and relationships and growth.

And Dominion War. And "Way of The Warrior". And the Tailor.

The appeal is that it's that gritty, realistic universe that you like Star Wars for. Everything isn't sterile and utopian. They're real people who have to make real decisions that don't always end up working for the best. Plus, it's a serial, so there's actual character development and relationships and growth.

I dunno then, because usually I love "lived in" Sci-Fi universes. After Star Wars, my favorite Sci-Fi is Firefly.

I dunno then, because usually I love "lived in" Sci-Fi universes. After Star Wars, my favorite Sci-Fi is Firefly.

You'd probably like Farscape too, then.

yeah, character development, something that was removed when it was changed so Greedo shot first. Han goes from bar-diving scum pilot turned hero, to loveable hero that happens to have a bit of a bar-diving scum pilot habit.

I dunno then, because usually I love "lived in" Sci-Fi universes. After Star Wars, my favorite Sci-Fi is Firefly.

After Star Wars? I didn't think that was possible.

I cringed in horror when I saw the girl at the cinema explaining to movie goers that 'Serenity' was 'a lot like Star Wars'. A sure way to disappoint Star Wars fans, I thought... and a way to offend people who actually LIKE Serenity.

I just can't reconcile Star Wars and Serenity in the same head...

Last off topic post, I swear, defending DS9. It took me a while, but I found this quote I was looking for that sums up the mood in DS9, for me.

Just because a group of people belong to the Federation does not mean that they are saints .... On Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see Paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in paradise. But the Maquis do not live in Paradise. Out there in the Demilitarized Zone, all the problems haven't been solved yet. Out there, there are no saints ... just people. Angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with the Federation's approval or not.

I dunno then, because usually I love "lived in" Sci-Fi universes. After Star Wars, my favorite Sci-Fi is Firefly.

DS9 is different from TNG. It shows a different side of the Federation. There are more characters in DS9 than in TNG, and there are a lot more occasional characters. I'd say there are more good characters in DS9 than TNG, but TNG has the best characters.

As for your "lived in" sci-fi, DS9 really does qualify. I really liked Firefly, but I think I prefer DS9 to Firefly, which is a little bias since I am a Trekkie at heart. But DS9 is very lived in. It's almost a return to the Kirk days, with things breaking down all the time, whilst being an extension of TNG.

Ultimately, DS9 is quite different from the Star Trek you will have seen before. It is very much internally based (a lot of Federation things going on). It shows a darker, dirtier side of the federation. If you liked the "down-to-earthism" of Star Wars and Firefly, then DS9 should, theoretically be your favourite Star Trek series.

After Star Wars? I didn't think that was possible.

I cringed in horror when I saw the girl at the cinema explaining to movie goers that 'Serenity' was 'a lot like Star Wars'. A sure way to disappoint Star Wars fans, I thought... and a way to offend people who actually LIKE Serenity.

I just can't reconcile Star Wars and Serenity in the same head...

You think that if you like one you can't like the other? That's silly. Most people I know who like Firefly also like Star Wars.

The common thread between them is that gritty, beat up feel. Beyond that I like different things about them. Firefly is not the show to watch if you want tons of epic starfighter battles and cool aliens. It's a great show to watch if you're interested in how ordinary people's lives would be in a Sci-Fi setting.

DS9 is different from TNG. It shows a different side of the Federation. There are more characters in DS9 than in TNG, and there are a lot more occasional characters. I'd say there are more good characters in DS9 than TNG, but TNG has the best characters.

As for your "lived in" sci-fi, DS9 really does qualify. I really liked Firefly, but I think I prefer DS9 to Firefly, which is a little bias since I am a Trekkie at heart. But DS9 is very lived in. It's almost a return to the Kirk days, with things breaking down all the time, whilst being an extension of TNG.

Ultimately, DS9 is quite different from the Star Trek you will have seen before. It is very much internally based (a lot of Federation things going on). It shows a darker, dirtier side of the federation. If you liked the "down-to-earthism" of Star Wars and Firefly, then DS9 should, theoretically be your favourite Star Trek series.

I know, I mean, I saw that it was a rough and tumble setting, but for some reason I just never liked Deep Space Nine. Like I said, given my taste in Sci-Fi, logically I should like it, but inexplicably I couldn't get into it.

You think that if you like one you can't like the other? That's silly. Most people I know who like Firefly also like Star Wars.

The common thread between them is that gritty, beat up feel. Beyond that I like different things about them. Firefly is not the show to watch if you want tons of epic starfighter battles and cool aliens. It's a great show to watch if you're interested in how ordinary people's lives would be in a Sci-Fi setting.

Which I like. Which is why I like DS9... and Bladerunner, and other movies/shows that really look at the underbelly.

But - to me, Star Wars completely fails to do that. It's all swords and sorcery and jolly-old-heave-ho brave knights and princesses and dark wizards, and it's even got fucking magic swords... no, not a fan.

Which I like. Which is why I like DS9... and Bladerunner, and other movies/shows that really look at the underbelly.

But - to me, Star Wars completely fails to do that. It's all swords and sorcery and jolly-old-heave-ho brave knights and princesses and dark wizards, and it's even got fucking magic swords... no, not a fan.

I agree: Star Wars/Trek for me are base SF entertainment. If I want depth and truly excellent writing, I'll watch Farscape, Firefly, Babylon 5 or BSG. But I can like all of them, for different reasons.

Trek and Wars are like Indiana Jones films. I go for the action and the basic intrigue. POPCORN!

I agree: Star Wars/Trek for me are base SF entertainment. If I want depth and truly excellent writing, I'll watch Farscape, Firefly, Babylon 5 or BSG. But I can like all of them, for different reasons.

Trek and Wars are like Indiana Jones films. I go for the action and the basic intrigue. POPCORN!

You may actually have hit the nail on the head, there.

I've never really liked action films, as a genre. I've never really bought into popcorn movies, either.

(Obviously - there are spectacular exceptions: I can't deny that "Equilibrium" is an action movie, and "Pirates of the Caribbean" is TOTALLY popcorn).

Which I like. Which is why I like DS9... and Bladerunner, and other movies/shows that really look at the underbelly.

But - to me, Star Wars completely fails to do that. It's all swords and sorcery and jolly-old-heave-ho brave knights and princesses and dark wizards, and it's even got fucking magic swords... no, not a fan.

I like some Sci-Fi, but maybe my fondness for Star Wars comes from the fact that at heart I'm a fantasy nerd. As I said in my first post, I think comparisons of Star Trek and Star Wars are most often flawed because of the fundamental difference in the nature of the two universes. Star Trek is quintessential Science Fiction, and Star Wars is more Science Fantasy.

I just can't reconcile Star Wars and Serenity in the same head...

I like both.

Im much more of a SW fan, but Firefly was a kickass show.

"The chain of command, is the chain Im going to beat you with, until you realize who's in command."
-Mal.

"The chain of command, is the chain Im going to beat you with, until you realize who's in command."
-Mal.

That wasn't Mal, it was Jayne.

I think a more interesting debate would be perhaps Cylons vs. the Empire. >.>

Why would you assume so? The Federation does indeed have fighters and the Klingons are well known for their piloting abilities.

Yes, they have fighters, but are they as small or manuverable as Wars ones? I honestly don't know.

That wasn't Mal, it was Jayne.

I think a more interesting debate would be perhaps Cylons vs. the Empire. >.>

I don't know much about old Battlestar Galactica, but the new one would go down hard. I mean, its a cool show, but they're still using nukes, and don't have sheilds.

Yes, they have fighters, but are they as small or manuverable as Wars ones? I honestly don't know.
Seems to be. They carry a crew complement of 1 to 2, 3 torpedo tubes and either pulse or regular phasers.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Federation_attack_fighter

The whole point of 8472 was that they WERE something that could take on the Borg. And, if you look at it, they played merry hell with the SW:EU as well. Yes, 8472 did beat the borg, thus showing that their vaunted adaptation was not infalible.

As for First Contact, the Federation fleet was loosing, yet again, until Enterprise showed up. Now, Enterprise had three advantages over the Borg. One, Captain Picard could hear them and was able to use that knowledge to pinpoint a weakness. The Empire would not have that advantage. Two, Enterprise is of course one of the most powerful ships in the fleet and even then, it couldn't make it work without Picard's internal knowledge of the Borg as well as the rest of the fleet (Including the Millennium Falcon); not to mention that the destruction of that cube might have been the Borg's plan all along. They don't notice the loss of a cube after all. And three, you forgot that Fate (and the writers) protect fools, little children, and ships named Enterprise. Of COURSE the Enterprise was going to win, the movie would be over if it didn't!

The Cube had taken damage however before the Enterprise arrived. And concentrating fire on a weak spot that Picard identifies still requires that the fire power gets through the sheilds. The point being that borg sheilds can be beaten down by raw firepower despite their adaptations.

Anyway, why couldn't a Force user like Vader sense where to direct the fleet's fire for maximum affect?

That was Q-Who, the Borg changed their MO to assimilation, hence their standard hail.

Fair point.

And they would have, what? Maybe one or two shots before the collective adapts and all other blaster fire becomes useless? As for their armor, as I've already pointed out, those things have cloth or rubber joints. I'm pretty sure that the Borg can penetrate it.

They'll still have thermal detonators and other weapons, and they can still smash a Borg skull with a rifel butt. The Borg have never shown their personal sheilds can adapt to brute physical force impacting them, and the Stormtrooper's armour and discipline will still give them an edge compared to the poor Star fleet basterds who went hand to hand with the Borg in First Contact.

Probably not, he would have to control trillions of drones that make up the collective. It's more probable that the collective would be able to exert its will on Vader than the other way around.

I don't know if the collective would be able to do it in reverse without putting their implants in Vader. They control through technology, not psychic power. However, mind control doesn't really seem to Vader's specialty. Their are other Jedi and Sith who could probably pull this off better, including Palpatine and C'baoth if you've read the Thrawn trilogy. C'baoth controlled small fleets of Imperial personel, and it was suggested that Palpatine was mentally influencing the entire Imperial military, or at least the forces pressent at Endor.

They must have been ordered to let them go a lot then. :p In any case, Stormtrooper armor hasn't been shown to be too effective. A single blaster hit will kill them so I've never been sure as to why they even bother, except that it looks intimidating.

Storm trooper armour would provide protection from harsh environmental conditions, and it can be sealed to provide some protection against bio or chemical weapons and also the vacume of space(for a brief time). It has built in comunication gear. Also, it might not stop a blaster, but it probably would stop peices of shrapnel from near misses blasting holes in walls or explosives going off. And blaster shots aren't a garunteed kill. Anything that improves your chances of survival is worth it.

As for the accuracy, they did fine against the rebels on Leia's ship, and the Death Star was a clear case of letting the enemy get away.

The only time we get to judge their accuracy in Empire Strikes back is the escape from Cloud City, where I admit their performance was disapointing. However, in Return of the Jedi they succeed in hitting both Leia and R2D2 at Endor.

Seems to be. They carry a crew complement of 1 to 2, 3 torpedo tubes and either pulse or regular phasers.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Federation_attack_fighter

Their odds against the Death Star go up then, though a lot depends on weather they have a pilot that can match Luke.

Storm trooper armour would provide protection from harsh environmental conditions, and it can be sealed to provide some protection against bio or chemical weapons and also the vacume of space(for a brief time). It has built in comunication gear. Also, it might not stop a blaster, but it probably would stop peices of shrapnel from near misses blasting holes in walls or explosives going off. And blaster shots aren't a garunteed kill. Anything that improves your chances of survival is worth it.


But - don't Stormtrooper helmets basically just 'pop off'? Hardly going to outfox the Collective for long with a trick like that...

But - don't Stormtrooper helmets basically just 'pop off'? Hardly going to outfox the Collective for long with a trick like that...

A helmet that pops off is still better than none at all. I didn't say Stormtroopers are supersoldeirs, just that they'd do better against the Borg than Star fleet's glorified police men.

Plus, in a Death Star bording action, they'de have numbers on their side most likely. The Death Star one is stated to have had a million personel, though how many were troopers I don't know. What's the typical compliment for a Borg Cube?

A helmet that pops off is still better than none at all. I didn't say Stormtroopers are supersoldeirs, just that they'd do better against the Borg than Star fleet's glorified police men.


Yes, but given that Borg tactics are basically hand-to-hand, and they're mostly immune to ranged weapons, a detachable helmet isn't a big obstacle.


Plus, in a Death Star bording action, they'de have numbers on their side most likely. The Death Star one is stated to have had a million personel, though how many were troopers I don't know. What's the typical compliment for a Borg Cube?

The Borg Collective has as many soldiers as there are fallen. That's the beauty of it - if you have a million defenders, and you don't shut the Borg down RIGHT away, you soon have no defenders, and the Borg have a million new Borg.

Vault 10 knows him some physics. Nice fingers of god avatar BTW. I still say that some time-travel or trek's amazing knowledge of any beings genome would win any war. Assuming midichlorians are native to Wars-space then some doctor from Section 31 could probably make a virus that killed people with midichlorians. Since everyone has midichlorians in Star Wars than that = total universal genocide. A respectable killcount by any standards.

Interesting bit of Death Star info here.

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2002/01/10deathstar.html

Allow me to answer htis one, the Empire put that room there specifically for shits and giggles. It wasn't the actual trash disposal unit (hell I'd probbaly just incinerate it with the superhot exhaust from the Ion engines needed to power that thing, more efficient). Anyway, I digress... that room was put ther by the Empire because they though it would be amusing if imperial prisoners escaped thier cells only to end up sliding into a stinking pit full of a man eating worm things and crushy masher walls. :)

Yes, but given that Borg tactics are basically hand-to-hand, and they're mostly immune to ranged weapons, a detachable helmet isn't a big obstacle.



The Borg Collective has as many soldiers as there are fallen. That's the beauty of it - if you have a million defenders, and you don't shut the Borg down RIGHT away, you soon have no defenders, and the Borg have a million new Borg.

Well, you have to kill them faster than they assimallate. I admit the Empire might have problems if they got on board. However, I'm not convinced they could so easilly adapt to a blaster, or that the Empire wouldn't just blow up whatever part of the ship they boarded to prevent them from expanding, or that they could beam throught the sheilds and jamming the Imperials would use.

A big factory in the Empire's favor is shere ruthlessness. Lets say that somehow, despite sheilds, armor, and massive jamming the Borg beam aboard. Lets say that they overwelm the Stormtrooper garrison, despite the fact that when the Stormtroopers see what's going on, they will be ordered to shoot anyone who is assimalated imediately.

Well, given the most optimistic senario for the Borg, what's to stop the Empire just flooding a few corridors with a corrosive gas, and killing the Borg as surely as Data did in First Contact? The Empire won't care if a few of its troops died as well(ignoring the fact that the Stormtrooper's armour might save them in such a senario).

A Wookie could maul a Vulcan anyday

Well, you have to kill them faster than they assimallate. I admit the Empire might have problems if they got on board. However, I'm not convinced they could so easilly adapt to a blaster, or that the Empire wouldn't just blow up whatever part of the ship they boarded to prevent them from expanding, or that they could beam throught the sheilds and jamming the Imperials would use.

A big factory in the Empire's favor is shere ruthlessness. Lets say that somehow, despite sheilds, armor, and massive jamming the Borg beam aboard. Lets say that they overwelm the Stormtrooper garrison, despite the fact that when the Stormtroopers see what's going on, they will be ordered to shoot anyone who is assimalated imediately.

Well, given the most optimistic senario for the Borg, what's to stop the Empire just flooding a few corridors with a corrosive gas, and killing the Borg as surely as Data did in First Contact? The Empire won't care if a few of its troops died as well(ignoring the fact that the Stormtrooper's armour might save them in such a senario).

Evo troopers for sure would be protected by their armor, but I think run of the mill cannon fodder troopers would be quite dead.

Vault 10 did you mention something about the impact converting the plating into a gas? wouldn't that make the plates a sort of reactive armor? It would be the kind of thing that would work against sand and small particles but probably not bricks. In order for anything to navigate space at speed it needs the capability to absorb or deflect the junk that happens to be there. Since we're talking Sci-Fi, I'd like to see if someone can source something that states how the Imperial ships handle the junk in space.

The only thing I can think of is in Return of the Jedi where the A-Wing is about to crash into the bridge of the Executor and the commanding officer demands that the crew "Reinforce, forward shielding" this suggests to me that the CO believes the shields will protect the ship from a car-sized fighter hitting it.

Mind you, the Executor was the second-largest ship in the Battle of Endor next to the Death Star 2. However, it was downed by an impact equivalent to a Jet Fighter hitting at Mach 5. It seems Vader's ship had no secondary bridge. Perhaps the shields only protect against impacts when they're at a high-enough "power Level".

I think he said to "concentrate forward firepower", or something to that effect. That was in responce to an officer shouting that the shields were down. So in that scene we have proof that Imperial ships do have sheilds, and also a possible implication that had the sheilds been up, the fighter would not have gotten through. Though only a breif sequence is devoted to the attack on the Executor, Ackbar did order the fleet to "concentrate" on it. In short, the sheilds had already been pounded down, and if they had been up, that fighter collission would have done squat.

In the EU, three Star Destroyers accidentally ram the Executor, and it survives.

I wonder what medical science in Star Trek has done to the human body? Perhaps what we regard as the human limits of strength and stamina are different for Starfleet personnel. I believe that humans handle themselves alright against Borg in First Contact. I also seem to recall that Data sometimes struggles with borg in hand-to-hand. With Data being an android and the show stating several times and in several ways that he has super strength then perhaps the Humans in First Contact were "juiced up" on something to bring themselves up to a Borg's (and Data's) strength? A wise precaution when faced with an enemy that usually engages in CQC.

Also, Borg ships don't have traditional shields, their ships are highly decentralized and redundant. The borg expect to take a few shots before adapting, repairing, and assimilating. Hence, in First Contact, the shots from the defense fleet were able to begin damaging the hull with Picard's directions.

A Wookie could maul a Vulcan anyday

Don't be so sure. Vulcans are stronger than humans, and they often use that neck pinch trick. Don't know if it would work on a wookie, though.

I wonder what medical science in Star Trek has done to the human body? Perhaps what we regard as the human limits of strength and stamina are different for Starfleet personnel. I believe that humans handle themselves alright against Borg in First Contact. I also seem to recall that Data sometimes struggles with borg in hand-to-hand. With Data being an android and the show stating several times and in several ways that he has super strength then perhaps the Humans in First Contact were "juiced up" on something to bring themselves up to a Borg's (and Data's) strength? A wise precaution when faced with an enemy that usually engages in CQC.

Also, Borg ships don't have traditional shields, their ships are highly decentralized and redundant. The borg expect to take a few shots before adapting, repairing, and assimilating. Hence, in First Contact, the shots from the defense fleet were able to begin damaging the hull with Picard's directions.


Um, they say in the movie that the Cube is already damaged when the Enterprise arrives.

As for "juicing up" Fed troops, its an interesting idea. However, as Worf showed with his knife, and Picard with his machine Gun on the holodeck, they might have been better off if they'd replicated 20th century weapons.

Well, you have to kill them faster than they assimallate.


And keep killing them. It's like Alien. If ONE gets away, you're in the shit.


I admit the Empire might have problems if they got on board. However, I'm not convinced they could so easilly adapt to a blaster,


Why? Their adaptation is a technical process - it's entirely possible they could adapt to blaster fire after a few casualties. There's certainly no real reason to asusme they couldn't.


...or that the Empire wouldn't just blow up whatever part of the ship they boarded to prevent them from expanding, or that they could beam throught the sheilds and jamming the Imperials would use.


A lot of 'ifs'. If you can jam them, or shield against them. If you can contain them. The Borg have been portrayed as a lot of things, but not really as 'stupid'. They have certainly been shown to be pretty relenetless. So - even if you kill every Borg in the first wave... there'll be more. And more. And they'll adapt to your techniques.


A big factory in the Empire's favor is shere ruthlessness. Lets say that somehow, despite sheilds, armor, and massive jamming the Borg beam aboard. Lets say that they overwelm the Stormtrooper garrison, despite the fact that when the Stormtroopers see what's going on, they will be ordered to shoot anyone who is assimalated imediately.

Well, given the most optimistic senario for the Borg, what's to stop the Empire just flooding a few corridors with a corrosive gas, and killing the Borg as surely as Data did in First Contact? The Empire won't care if a few of its troops died as well(ignoring the fact that the Stormtrooper's armour might save them in such a senario).

Well, first - you're not going to top the Borg on ruthlessness. The image of the last soldier crawling over his fallen comrades to plant the bomb, or whatever... pure Borg. If it costs a million Borg to assimilate your world, that's what it cost. They WILL win, eventually. They're sure of it.

Okay - you kill all the Borg in the first wave, gas in the corridor, whatever. Did you get ALL the Borg that came on board - they're not necessarily going to make a mad dash. More likely (based on how they operated in First Contact) their first initial push will be to splinter, into small groups or individuals, and just keep plugging away, sending one Borg after another in to take you under by attrition.

And that's the scary thing about the Borg - one IS all it takes. It's like a vampire fantasy - whoever they touch becomes them.

Um, they say in the movie that the Cube is already damaged when the Enterprise arrives.

As for "juicing up" Fed troops, its an interesting idea. However, as Worf showed with his knife, and Picard with his machine Gun on the holodeck, they might have been better off if they'd replicated 20th century weapons.

No.... a machinegun wouldn't be very effective.

And, if you think about it, it wasn't even a 20th century weapon that worked there - it was an anomoly of holoprojection.

Juicing up IS an interesting idea - we know that the Federation builds genetic supersoldier assassins (DS9), so who knows what other covert science they're hiding.

A Wookie could maul a Vulcan anyday

I disagree.
Wookies are stronger. But Vulcan are stronger then Humans so the gap isn't that big.
Also the Vulcan are more focused and calm. so it would be like a body builder (wookie) fighting a martial artist (Vulcan)

Um, they say in the movie that the Cube is already damaged when the Enterprise arrives.

As for "juicing up" Fed troops, its an interesting idea. However, as Worf showed with his knife, and Picard with his machine Gun on the holodeck, they might have been better off if they'd replicated 20th century weapons.

They would adapt. They just were not expecting those primitive weapons to be tried.

Section 31 is repeatedly said to have access to all the classified tech the Federation either feels it's not ready for or is too dangerous. It wouldn't surprise me if eugenics were regulated to cases of extreme threat.

They don't use machine guns because they are inaccurate and can't exactly vaporize anything.

Its more than likely they give enhancements to their crews and soldiers. ITs never been stated how much force is required to pull a lever or that sort of stuff.

As for gasing corridors, how would the Empire get onboard? They haven't got the firepower to knock out the shields, nor do they have the ability to beam aboard. They would have to land troops on board and get past the cutting beams. They wouldn't be able to penatrate any shield with their lasers.

You have to account for the ST manueverability. SW ships are slow and inaccurate. They use small laser guns as their weapons. ST ships could easily speed right by their ships and blast them with dozens of torpedos and be gone in a matter of seconds. They could easily just use their hit and run tactics to anihilate the Imperial fleet.

Um, hello, the Federation ends up with time travel on-demand by 29th century (if not before hand, possibly by the 26th century.)

I find if difficult that you're arguing that the Federation is at it's peek military-wise, during the dominion war, seeing as they're clearly just going to get more and more powerful as time goes on--unlike the Star Wars universe, which has had the same technology (more or less) for over 4000 years, with only minor improvements. Thus, in both cases Star Trek wins; Star Wars ships are so large because they're so technologically backwards, not because they're all that powerful. Case-and-point, the Death Star is the size of a moon, where as the Trilithium based weapons are very small, yet the smaller weapon can do a great deal more damage then the Death Star.

They would adapt. They just were not expecting those primitive weapons to be tried.

If we can count any of the Trek books I recall one involving a Picard incursion deep into Borg territory mentioning combat-oriented borg units made from non-humanoid species. Odds are they are only used during ground engagements but it does show that when Borg are expecting heavy resistance they field better armed and armored units. A picture of a Borg wookie is a terrifying one.

To Xomic, I mentioned several times in this thread that Spock knows the secret to time travel, odds are it was classified and research was outlawed, however, Spock has not canonically died yet (not counting Kahn/Search for Spock, cause he comes back). Therefore the information is available from Spock, a character whom has shown repeatedly that he is willing to break a couple dozen rules to save the day. We must discount time travel however. It gives a total instant win to Trek, even moreso if they manage to capture a record of the history of the Empire.

They don't use machine guns because they are inaccurate and can't exactly vaporize anything.

You don't really know much about firearms at all do you?

And keep killing them. It's like Alien. If ONE gets away, you're in the shit.



Why? Their adaptation is a technical process - it's entirely possible they could adapt to blaster fire after a few casualties. There's certainly no real reason to asusme they couldn't.



A lot of 'ifs'. If you can jam them, or shield against them. If you can contain them. The Borg have been portrayed as a lot of things, but not really as 'stupid'. They have certainly been shown to be pretty relenetless. So - even if you kill every Borg in the first wave... there'll be more. And more. And they'll adapt to your techniques.



Well, first - you're not going to top the Borg on ruthlessness. The image of the last soldier crawling over his fallen comrades to plant the bomb, or whatever... pure Borg. If it costs a million Borg to assimilate your world, that's what it cost. They WILL win, eventually. They're sure of it.

Okay - you kill all the Borg in the first wave, gas in the corridor, whatever. Did you get ALL the Borg that came on board - they're not necessarily going to make a mad dash. More likely (based on how they operated in First Contact) their first initial push will be to splinter, into small groups or individuals, and just keep plugging away, sending one Borg after another in to take you under by attrition.

And that's the scary thing about the Borg - one IS all it takes. It's like a vampire fantasy - whoever they touch becomes them.

I agree fighting the Borg would be a nightmare. But the Federation and Species 8472 both stopped them, so it can be done.

Here's how I see it going:

Initially, the Borg detect the Empire, and the Empire learns about this threat from the locals when they enter the Galaxy. Both seek the other out, the Borg to aquire technology, the Empire to eliminate a possible enemy and score a propoganda coup with the locals.

If the Empire find the Borg, they launch an Alpha Strike on Unimatrix Zero and level the heart of the Collective. However, Queens have died before, so this might be only a setback as opposed to an irrevocable defeat. A lot depends on weather the Collective is controlled from a central location.

If the Borg find the Empire, they likely attack and attempt to capture a small ship or outpost to learn more about the Empire, the way they launched probing attacks in The Next Generation. Then, they probably make a line strait for Coruscant, mimmicking their MO in attacking the Federation. Hopefully for them, they send multiple cubes this time.

If they can use their cloaks or a transwarp conduit to get to Coruscant without being detected and intercepted, they face the Coruscant Sector Fleet, and quite a few other defenses, including Gollan Arms stations, ground based guns, and double planetary sheilds. Let's say the Borg recognize the Empire's power when they find out about the Death Star, and send half their entire fleet. While the size of the fleet is unknown, lets say several thousand cubes and a comparable number of smaller ships. Seeing this, the Sector fleet shits itself and calls for backup, which, given Coruscant's importance, likely includes Vader's Death Squadron and possibly a Death Star if their's one operational at the time.

Now, given that Borg sheilds are probably in the low Gigaton range, and officially an Acclamator troop ship has 200 Gigaton guns, the Borg take hideous losses. If they've somehow adapted to all turbolasers(despite my deep skeptisism at the illogic of assuming that their is no upper limit on the amount of raw power they can addapt to), they will rapidly be greeted with Ion cannon fire, proton torpedos, and other missle weapons. If nessisary, the Imperial ships can and will ram Borg ships as well, and if Borg sheilding has shown itself vulnerable to one thing, its physical impacts.

Now, I'll be generous to the Borg and assume that they can beam through Imperial sheilds(very generous, since these are a lot stronger than Star Trek sheilds and the Empire has strong jamming and thick armour to boot). This is where it gets ugly, since as you said, Borg tactics favor close quarters. I think the shere number of Stormtroopers on each Destroyer will allow the Stormtroopers to hold their own. Full assimalation takes a while, and the Empire will order its soldeirs to shoot anyone who's assimallated. They will also possibly self destruct ships or use chemical weapons to slow the Borg advance. My real fear would be if Vader (or, God forbid, the Emperor:eek2:) got assimalated. Would their Force powers survive the process? Otherwise, however, I beleive the stormtroopers will not give ground. They are brainwashed, loyal to the death, and the Emperor will be using his Battle Meditation technique to enhance their moral. Also, the Empire will be fighting for the Imperial Capital.

The worst part is if the Borg manage to get under Coruscant's sheild(either by a suprise attack before its raised, or by beaming through). Rooting them out of the lower levels would be a nightmare, and bombarding entire districts to sterilize the Borg pressence would cause horrific collateral damage. If the Borg only attacked a few areas, though, such tactics could probably neutralize them. On the other hand, if they beam down all over Coruscant, it may be deemed nessisary to evacuate the Imperial Palace, then sterilize the planet. Even Vader or Tarkin might hessitate at the order to turn a superlaser on Coruscant.

Ultimately their are four big unknowns: how many ships do the Borg send, will they hit Coruscant directly, can they transwarp to Coruscant without being intercepted, and can they beam through Imperial sheilds or get close enough to beam in without being detected in time for the planetary sheilds to be raised?

I chose to answer 1, 3, and 4 heavilly in the Borg's favor. 2 I answerd against them, since I think they'd do better to establish a pressence in the Outer Rim before going after Coruscant, since hitting Coruscant is really an all or nothing attack. They may do this somewhat in the preliminary scouting stage, of course.

In the senario above, weighting everything in the Borg's favor, I think the Empire still wins, if at a terrible cost. Weighted in the Empire's favor, 8472 seems like the good old days, and the biggest danger to the Empire will be hitting Borg debris.

Ultimately, I feel the Borg are better off using a more subtle aproach: sending cloaked ships to various Outer Rim worlds without planetary sheilds and dropping off bombs which disperse nanoprobes throught the atmosphere like a virus for gradual assimalation. The speed of hyperspace travel will actually increase the potential effectivness of such an attack, and depending on the quality of their sensors and medical equipment, the Empire might not know until half the Galaxy was infected. The Borg will possibly try such an aproach when a frontal attack fails, as they did with the Federation in Voyager. On the other hand, they seemed to need 7 of 9's knowledge to get it to work. Odd, that, unless it was just another manipulation by the Borg Queen.

All I know for sure is, I would pay good money to see that battle on the big screen:).

I seem to recall the standard-issue phaser being used because of it's multitude of functions, from heating rocks for warmth to it's multiple settings (wide-beam, stun, kill), as well as it's near-infinite ammo supply. The federation is not completely without ballistic weapons however, an episode of DS9 featured the use of rifles firing bullets that were transported 9 inches from their target before impact.

If we can count any of the Trek books I recall one involving a Picard incursion deep into Borg territory mentioning combat-oriented borg units made from non-humanoid species. Odds are they are only used during ground engagements but it does show that when Borg are expecting heavy resistance they field better armed and armored units. A picture of a Borg wookie is a terrifying one.

To Xomic, I mentioned several times in this thread that Spock knows the secret to time travel, odds are it was classified and research was outlawed, however, Spock has not canonically died yet (not counting Kahn/Search for Spock, cause he comes back). Therefore the information is available from Spock, a character whom has shown repeatedly that he is willing to break a couple dozen rules to save the day. We must discount time travel however. It gives a total instant win to Trek, even moreso if they manage to capture a record of the history of the Empire.

Generally time travel does not actually change the timeline, but rather creates a self-fullfilling loop (or has no obvious effects). Its also rarely used, and policed by certain forces.

The two exceptions to this I can think of are the time ships in Voyager's Year of Hell, and Admial Janeway in Voyager's Endgame. Canonically, however, the timeship is destroyed, so we have only one example of time travel changing the timeline. Unless someone cares to provide another one.

Oh, and books don't usualy count for Star Trek per official policy. Its an advantage us Star Wars fans enjoy;).

Generally time travel does not actually change the timeline, but rather creates a self-fullfilling loop (or has no obvious effects). Its also rarely used, and policed by certain forces.

The two exceptions to this I can think of are the time ships in Voyager's Year of Hell, and Admial Janeway in Voyager's Endgame. Canonically, however, the timeship is destroyed, so we have only one example of time travel changing the timeline. Unless someone cares to provide another one.

Oh, and books don't usualy count for Star Trek per official policy. Its an advantage us Star Wars fans enjoy;).

What about First Contact? Borg have timetravel too...

Either way, time travel is accomplished via a quick spin around the sun preforming certain maneuvers that are probably known only to spock. Source: "The Voyage Home" This shows that semi-accurate time travel can be performed with standard equipment. (at a massive power drain). Hence the reason time travel must be completely discounted from Trek. A sturdy ship and a solar body is apparently all it takes to travel back in time and grab you some whales. Or beam a Chancellor Palpatine into space.

From what Grave n Idle mentioned then unless Time Travel is discounted then the Star Wars universe loses massively in both secnarios, against the universe the Borg could travel to a precise time while against the Feds alone Starfleet could travel to within a few years of an important event.

They don't use machine guns because they are inaccurate and can't exactly vaporize anything.

Its more than likely they give enhancements to their crews and soldiers. ITs never been stated how much force is required to pull a lever or that sort of stuff.

While the enhancements are an interesting idea, I doubt it's that wide spread. Certainly not genetic enhancements. I seem to recall that the Federation is not a big fan of genetic manipulation. Also, vaporization is not the only use for a weapon. If a machine gun can get through Borg personal sheilds, its probably better than a phaser for fighting that particular enemy.

As for gasing corridors, how would the Empire get onboard? They haven't got the firepower to knock out the shields, nor do they have the ability to beam aboard. They would have to land troops on board and get past the cutting beams. They wouldn't be able to penatrate any shield with their lasers.

Well, I was talking about gassing corridors as a defense against Borg boarders, not as an offensive tactic. Though it could certainly be used that way.

Now, I've delt with the firepower issue, and the laser issue, but their are a lot of posts here, so I'll do it again for your benefit.

Using official policy, Acclamator transports have 200 Gigaton Guns. This is far in excess of Federation weaponry, or Borg weaponry. Please explain why I should assume that the Borg can adapt to any level of fire power. That, I beleive, is what we term a no-limits fallacy. I suppose you beleive that the Borg could be caught in the middle of the Big Bang and survive, as long as they'd had a chance to adapt?

Regarding lasers, its just a name. If you look at how Star Wars "lasers" behave, they are missing two key characteristics of a laser: they do not travle at lightspeed, and they are visible in empty space.

Your argument is like saying that pie chart must be edible, because its called a pie chart. Its just silly when you think about it, though a suprisingly common mistake.

You have to account for the ST manueverability. SW ships are slow and inaccurate. They use small laser guns as their weapons. ST ships could easily speed right by their ships and blast them with dozens of torpedos and be gone in a matter of seconds. They could easily just use their hit and run tactics to anihilate the Imperial fleet.[/QUOTE]

Either way, time travel is accomplished via a quick spin around the sun preforming certain maneuvers that are probably known only to spock. Source: "The Voyage Home" This shows that semi-accurate time travel can be performed with standard equipment. (at a massive power drain). Hence the reason time travel must be completely discounted from Trek. A sturdy ship and a solar body is apparently all it takes to travel back in time and grab you some whales. Or beam a Chancellor Palpatine into space.

From what Grave n Idle mentioned then unless Time Travel is discounted then the Star Wars universe loses massively in both secnarios, against the universe the Borg could travel to a precise time while against the Feds alone Starfleet could travel to within a few years of an important event.

I'd worry more about temporal paradoxes. How do you know going back wasn't the very thing that caused the history you're currently trying to change.

True, however in Voyager the solution to a paradox seemed to be "to hell with it, try again". Also, these 200 gigaton guns, what the devil does that matter? A gigaton is 1 billion tons, a measure of weight. It sounds to me like an author threw out a cool-sounding word. Unless gigaton could be retconned into something like when they threw out parsecs when talking about the Kessel Run.

I agree fighting the Borg would be a nightmare. But the Federation and Species 8472 both stopped them, so it can be done.

Here's how I see it going:

Initially, the Borg detect the Empire, and the Empire learns about this threat from the locals when they enter the Galaxy. Both seek the other out, the Borg to aquire technology, the Empire to eliminate a possible enemy and score a propoganda coup with the locals.

If the Empire find the Borg, they launch an Alpha Strike on Unimatrix Zero and level the heart of the Collective. However, Queens have died before, so this might be only a setback as opposed to an irrevocable defeat. A lot depends on weather the Collective is controlled from a central location.

If the Borg find the Empire, they likely attack and attempt to capture a small ship or outpost to learn more about the Empire, the way they launched probing attacks in The Next Generation. Then, they probably make a line strait for Coruscant, mimmicking their MO in attacking the Federation. Hopefully for them, they send multiple cubes this time.

If they can use their cloaks or a transwarp conduit to get to Coruscant without being detected and intercepted, they face the Coruscant Sector Fleet, and quite a few other defenses, including Gollan Arms stations, ground based guns, and double planetary sheilds. Let's say the Borg recognize the Empire's power when they find out about the Death Star, and send half their entire fleet. While the size of the fleet is unknown, lets say several thousand cubes and a comparable number of smaller ships. Seeing this, the Sector fleet shits itself and calls for backup, which, given Coruscant's importance, likely includes Vader's Death Squadron and possibly a Death Star if their's one operational at the time.

Now, given that Borg sheilds are probably in the low Gigaton range, and officially an Acclamator troop ship has 200 Gigaton guns, the Borg take hideous losses. If they've somehow adapted to all turbolasers(despite my deep skeptisism at the illogic of assuming that their is no upper limit on the amount of raw power they can addapt to), they will rapidly be greeted with Ion cannon fire, proton torpedos, and other missle weapons. If nessisary, the Imperial ships can and will ram Borg ships as well, and if Borg sheilding has shown itself vulnerable to one thing, its physical impacts.

Now, I'll be generous to the Borg and assume that they can beam through Imperial sheilds(very generous, since these are a lot stronger than Star Trek sheilds and the Empire has strong jamming and thick armour to boot). This is where it gets ugly, since as you said, Borg tactics favor close quarters. I think the shere number of Stormtroopers on each Destroyer will allow the Stormtroopers to hold their own. Full assimalation takes a while, and the Empire will order its soldeirs to shoot anyone who's assimallated. They will also possibly self destruct ships or use chemical weapons to slow the Borg advance. My real fear would be if Vader (or, God forbid, the Emperor:eek2:) got assimalated. Would their Force powers survive the process? Otherwise, however, I beleive the stormtroopers will not give ground. They are brainwashed, loyal to the death, and the Emperor will be using his Battle Meditation technique to enhance their moral. Also, the Empire will be fighting for the Imperial Capital.

The worst part is if the Borg manage to get under Coruscant's sheild(either by a suprise attack before its raised, or by beaming through). Rooting them out of the lower levels would be a nightmare, and bombarding entire districts to sterilize the Borg pressence would cause horrific collateral damage. If the Borg only attacked a few areas, though, such tactics could probably neutralize them. On the other hand, if they beam down all over Coruscant, it may be deemed nessisary to evacuate the Imperial Palace, then sterilize the planet. Even Vader or Tarkin might hessitate at the order to turn a superlaser on Coruscant.

Ultimately their are four big unknowns: how many ships do the Borg send, will they hit Coruscant directly, can they transwarp to Coruscant without being intercepted, and can they beam through Imperial sheilds or get close enough to beam in without being detected in time for the planetary sheilds to be raised?

I chose to answer 1, 3, and 4 heavilly in the Borg's favor. 2 I answerd against them, since I think they'd do better to establish a pressence in the Outer Rim before going after Coruscant, since hitting Coruscant is really an all or nothing attack. They may do this somewhat in the preliminary scouting stage, of course.

In the senario above, weighting everything in the Borg's favor, I think the Empire still wins, if at a terrible cost. Weighted in the Empire's favor, 8472 seems like the good old days, and the biggest danger to the Empire will be hitting Borg debris.

Ultimately, I feel the Borg are better off using a more subtle aproach: sending cloaked ships to various Outer Rim worlds without planetary sheilds and dropping off bombs which disperse nanoprobes throught the atmosphere like a virus for gradual assimalation. The speed of hyperspace travel will actually increase the potential effectivness of such an attack, and depending on the quality of their sensors and medical equipment, the Empire might not know until half the Galaxy was infected. The Borg will possibly try such an aproach when a frontal attack fails, as they did with the Federation in Voyager. On the other hand, they seemed to need 7 of 9's knowledge to get it to work. Odd, that, unless it was just another manipulation by the Borg Queen.

All I know for sure is, I would pay good money to see that battle on the big screen:).

Well, we've been told in TNG that Borg don't have a centralised control - although First Contact threw us the Queen... but we have to assume, then, that she is more of a Gestalt entity - a focus... rather than a leader, per se. Perhaps a (the) Borg Queen is more like a coordination relay. It's handy to have one, but the job can get done without.

What we DO know is - Borg don't need the Queen - or even the rest of the Borg. We've seen canonical pieces that showed separate Borg collectives and microcollectives of various types, and with various degrees of contact and commitment to the original Borg.

And there's a real difference in the balance - if you kill the Queen, the Borg can still win. If you kill the Emperor, the Empire is in trouble.

Based on what we've seen, I don't honestly think the Borg would head straight for Coruscant. Their interactions with humans were forced, and they didn't really have to send a fleet to attack Earth - for two reasons... one, they'd been collecting information and knew that Earth wasn't THAT well guarded, and two - assimilation was only ONE plan of attack. The fact that that cube contained a Borg sphere with timetravel backups means they were always at least prepared to win, by temporal attack.

So - I think the first encounter you'd see would be sudden disappearances of Imperial craft, while the Borg did some datamining. Then, I suspect Imperial worlds would just start 'going out' as an ever increasing fleet of Borg hit, consumed and assimilated them. Needless to say, I think - at the same time, Borg would be assimilating anything else that got near enough too. I don't think they'd only turn on the Empire, and that gives them an effectively unlimited army, because everytime a hole appears in their lines, a new crew of recently assimilated Hutt (or whatever) can fill the gap.

You can't really use the canonical ST to work out the exact Borg battle plan, because Borg have never actually been at war with humans. And we've basically had enough trouble with the bits and bobs we ran into.

I can't think - off the top of my head - of any SW critter that can match the parameters of 8472.

I also tend to believe that assimilated Jedi/Sith would retain Force powers, simply because I see no reason to believe otherwise.

I see no reason why Borg couldn't beam through just about any shield you can care to name. I'm not sure ST crews ever managed to work out a satisfactory response. I could be wrong, but I seem to recall even jamming doesn't STOP you beaming, it just makes it incredibly risky (there are several stories that have anti-beaming factors that can be circumvented by some kind of focus or teleport homer. Sure - they might be beaming entirely speculatively, but this is the Borg, they'd do it anyway.

So - if Borg cubes encountered a Deathstar, they could just sit near by it and beam millions of drones in the rough direction of it, in the quiet assurance that, sooner or later, some of them would make a safe landing in the ship and start causing havoc.

I tend to agree that - once they started hitting core worlds, they'd definitely employ scatter tactics, trying to push through small packets of Borg, rather than trying to steamroll straight over the world. Borg are in their element in a metropolis.

And, of course, there's the other factor you mentioned, which is that - even if you wiped out the Borg fleet (which I think is unlikely, because it could be infinitely vast)... you're going to be tripping over Borg-nuggets for centuries. And all it takes is one damaged Borg on an out-of-the-way world like Hoth or Tatooine, to bring about a new invasion - this time, much wiser.

I honestly can't see how the SW side could win, if the ST side has Borg.

You don't really know much about firearms at all do you?

Kind of irrelevent... Picard never actually used a machinegun.

Certainly not genetic enhancements.


Bashir?


If a machine gun can get through Borg personal sheilds, its probably better than a phaser for fighting that particular enemy.


We don't know if a machinegun can.

The Empire alone would rape Star Trek literally to death.

True, however in Voyager the solution to a paradox seemed to be "to hell with it, try again". Also, these 200 gigaton guns, what the devil does that matter? A gigaton is 1 billion tons, a measure of weight. It sounds to me like an author threw out a cool-sounding word. Unless gigaton could be retconned into something like when they threw out parsecs when talking about the Kessel Run.

Its a valid term. Modern Nuclear Weapons are measured in Kilotons and Megatons.

I think its to do with explosive force, but I'm not sure.

Bashir?



We don't know if a machinegun can.

Both fair points. But I thought Bashire was a rare case. I'll have to check.

Bashir was altered illegally by a man paid by his parents, Eugenics were outlawed when Kahn almost took over the world. However there is the chance that lower-level enhancements are allowed and what I shall call combat enhancements allowed during emergencies. ST personel tend to live well past 100 years if they aren't in the security profession.

On transporters, I don't know of the borg use the basic transporter. Matter to energy, shot through tube, energy to matter. Or if they use some other tech, the subspace transporter from the TNG series, while dangerous, has nearly infinite range and is virtually unstoppable.

I feel prophetic. This is exactly what I was talking about. Star Wars operates with a totally different set of rules than Star Trek.

Well if the 200 gigatons is the explosive yield then before any calculations are made we'd have to know how the energy is delivered, how much strikes the target and how much decays, and what form the energy is in. All pointless because as Sdaeriji said, they have different rulesets. Especially considering that in many TNG episodes damage from certain energies can be limited or negated by changes to the shielding.

Star War's faction sizes alone will mean victory. They can throw an infinate ammount of men in white plastic against their enemies. An entire unified galaxy, minus maybe fifteen worlds, versus about half a galaxy divided into warring factions. Hmmm

Star War's faction sizes alone will mean victory. They can throw an infinate ammount of men in white plastic against their enemies. An entire unified galaxy, minus maybe fifteen worlds, versus half or so a universe divided into warring factions. Hmmm

Well, not so simple. It is an advantage, but their's quite a few areas where the Empire doesn't have total control, especially in the outer rim. But no, their's noone else that can challange them in their galaxy.

I feel prophetic. This is exactly what I was talking about. Star Wars operates with a totally different set of rules than Star Trek.

Indeed, which is why I said this was a pointless exercise from the beginning. Someone says that Star Wars can't win without godmodding. Well duh, Star Wars can't even work and enter the fight without godmodding. It is a godmode.

Star War's faction sizes alone will mean victory. They can throw an infinate ammount of men in white plastic against their enemies. An entire unified galaxy, minus maybe fifteen worlds, versus about half a galaxy divided into warring factions. Hmmm

And every single clone that hits the ground becomes one of the enemy...

That's the thing about the Borg, they're a real game-breaker.

SW versus ST-minus-Borg, I'm probably going advantage SW (probably, you can't really factor the Dominion very well, either).

SW versus ST-including-Borg? Borg win. Borg win it all. Unless 8472 become involved.

Well, not so simple. It is an advantage, but their's quite a few areas where the Empire doesn't have total control, especially in the outer rim. But no, their's noone else that can challange them in their galaxy.

True enough, but as The Force Unleashed (and other less good background fiction) shows us, almost everything the Empire touches gets converted into a gun factory of some type or another, whereas the Federation has entire worlds devoted to making whoopie, and other similar wastes.

Did you read the scenarios Belkaros? 1 is universe vs. universe, that means complete unity on both sides. Vader, Palpy, and Luke's gang all shoulder to shoulder against the myriad species of Trek.
Scenario 2 is Empire Vs. Feds, feds would lose hands down in a straight up fight. However Starfleet has shown that it can innovate technologies at an alarming rate, possibly including hyperspace technology from a captured ship. In a guerrilla or cold war Trek would win with FTL travel in unmapped regions, high-technology (genetic warfare, small efficient supernovae creators, possible time travel if included)

Did you read the scenarios Belkaros? 1 is universe vs. universe, that means complete unity on both sides. Vader, Palpy, and Luke's gang all shoulder to shoulder against the myriad species of Trek.
Scenario 2 is Empire Vs. Feds, feds would lose hands down in a straight up fight. However Starfleet has shown that it can innovate technologies at an alarming rate, possibly including hyperspace technology from a captured ship. In a guerrilla or cold war Trek would win with FTL travel in unmapped regions, high-technology (genetic warfare, small efficient supernovae creators, possible time travel if included)

The Empire would still win. Again, sheer numbers. If they can completley blockade entire systems with star destroyers and have the capacity to blow up planets, all the ingenuity and spunk in the galaxy wont help. They dont have the threat of force to lock the Empire in a Cold War, and a guerilla war would result in the Empire razing everything not wearing white to the ground or just blowing up the planet.

Yes, 8472 did beat the borg, thus showing that their vaunted adaptation was not infalible.
The Empire is NOT 8472, not even close. In fact, as I said, 8472 creamed the New Republic and what was left of the Empire.

The Cube had taken damage however before the Enterprise arrived. And concentrating fire on a weak spot that Picard identifies still requires that the fire power gets through the sheilds. The point being that borg sheilds can be beaten down by raw firepower despite their adaptations.
Again, given that the Borg plan involved going back in time, who's to say they didn't allow the Federation to take down that Cube?

Anyway, why couldn't a Force user like Vader sense where to direct the fleet's fire for maximum affect?
Because according to the EU, anything from outside the galaxy cannot be sensed with the Force?

They'll still have thermal detonators and other weapons, and they can still smash a Borg skull with a rifel butt. The Borg have never shown their personal sheilds can adapt to brute physical force impacting them, and the Stormtrooper's armour and discipline will still give them an edge compared to the poor Star fleet basterds who went hand to hand with the Borg in First Contact.
Yeah, Borg force fields have NEVER shown Worf or Data bouncing off of them. :rolleyes: That whole, the Borg are vulnerable to physical force happened TWICE. The first was a holographic trick, the second was also not expected. And both times, as it has been noted, was well within the Borg's philosophy. They don't CARE if an individual drone gets taken out. It doesn't matter to them at all. They know that hand-to-hand will not stop them as they will be able to overwhelm through sheer numbers alone, eventually. As Q said, they are relentless.

I don't know if the collective would be able to do it in reverse without putting their implants in Vader. They control through technology, not psychic power. However, mind control doesn't really seem to Vader's specialty. Their are other Jedi and Sith who could probably pull this off better, including Palpatine and C'baoth if you've read the Thrawn trilogy. C'baoth controlled small fleets of Imperial personel, and it was suggested that Palpatine was mentally influencing the entire Imperial military, or at least the forces pressent at Endor.
The Collective amounts to trillions of individual drones with their combined willpower. Unless you're the Force itself, I don't see any one person being able to bring their will to bear on the collective. Only one person has ever managed it, and HE was still used as a puppet by the Borg.

The only time we get to judge their accuracy in Empire Strikes back is the escape from Cloud City, where I admit their performance was disapointing. However, in Return of the Jedi they succeed in hitting both Leia and R2D2 at Endor.
But seemed to have problems against the teddy bears.

Has anyone here noticed the uncanny resemblance between Captain Jean-Luc Picard and Ackbar?

http://picarddoesit.com/picard.jpg

http://www.ackbar.org/images/ackbar.jpg

Scary!:eek2:

Oh, and books don't usualy count for Star Trek per official policy. Its an advantage us Star Wars fans enjoy;).
I discount all SW:EU that takes place after RotJ. Anything that does a MAJOR contradiction of the established films ain't worth the paper its printed on.

It's hard to blockade a system when a ship can just zoom by at several hundred times the speed of light. I doubt that the Empire's sensors, which seem to operate in the EM spectrum and therefore travel at the speed of light, would even detect a FTL ship in real space until after it passed. If true, a guerrilla war composed of warp-speed torpedo runs would leave the Empire's ships helpless unless they have the capability to put up a constant stream of turbolaser 'flak' at all times for a warp ship to run into.

Also, the beginnings of the Battle of Hoth show that the Imperials are extremely overconfident. They came out of hyperspace away from Hoth when, according to Vader's anger over the issue, the capability exists to arrive much closer. -1 point in strategic planning, one would assume that the Admiral of Vader's personal fleet would be intelligent.

*Snip*
Ya know, you keep assuming that the numbers of Stormtroopers means anything. The Borg wander around assimilating whole planets and species and have an assumed population of trillions of drones. One cube holds up to 130,000 drones and assimilation can take place in minutes.

The Empire is NOT 8472, not even close. In fact, as I said, 8472 creamed the New Republic and what was left of the Empire.


Again, given that the Borg plan involved going back in time, who's to say they didn't allow the Federation to take down that Cube?


Because according to the EU, anything from outside the galaxy cannot be sensed with the Force?

Yeah, Borg force fields have NEVER shown Worf or Data bouncing off of them. :rolleyes: That whole, the Borg are vulnerable to physical force happened TWICE. The first was a holographic trick, the second was also not expected. And both times, as it has been noted, was well within the Borg's philosophy. They don't CARE if an individual drone gets taken out. It doesn't matter to them at all. They know that hand-to-hand will not stop them as they will be able to overwhelm through sheer numbers alone, eventually. As Q said, they are relentless.


The Collective amounts to trillions of individual drones with their combined willpower. Unless you're the Force itself, I don't see any one person being able to bring their will to bear on the collective. Only one person has ever managed it, and HE was still used as a puppet by the Borg.


But seemed to have problems against the teddy bears.

A Jedi can weild the strength of an entire galaxy's worth of force power. They could just Starkiller a cube into a star with the force. Not to mention the Empire's total disregard for cost when it comes to getting the job done. They would just send entire star destroyers into cubes if thats what destroying them took. Plus the Empire has hundreds if not thousands of blaster weapon types, and can readily adapt to different combat situations, and considering that the Empire's weapons are not powered or even at all formated like the Federation's, so who knows if Borg shields would be effective at all.

Kind of irrelevent... Picard never actually used a machinegun.

No, he was using a submachinegun. A Thompson SMG, either a 1927 or 1928 model, with a drum magazine. It's a common misnomer to label them as full fledged machineguns though.

No, he was using a submachinegun. A Thompson SMG, either a 1927 or 1928 model, with a drum magazine. It's a common misnomer to label them as full fledged machineguns though.

Not even that.

He didn't use a weapon at all.

Which is what, in the end, worked. Once.

A Jedi can weild the strength of an entire galaxy's worth of force power.


And an Assimilated Jedi would be able to do exactly the same thing, right back.

They could just Starkiller a cube into a star with the force.


And, given that the Borg fleet only knows one limit (how much stuff it can find to assimilate), one cube isn't even worth blinking.

Not to mention the Empire's total disregard for cost when it comes to getting the job done. They would just send entire star destroyers into cubes if thats what destroying them took. Plus the Empire has hundreds if not thousands of blaster weapon types, and can readily adapt to different combat situations, and considering that the Empire's weapons are not powered or even at all formated like the Federation's, so who knows if Borg shields would be effective at all.

If they weren't, they would adapt - that's what they do.

A Jedi can wield the strength of an entire galaxy's worth of force power. They could just Starkiller a cube into a star with the force.
*Laugh* *Laugh* *Guffaw* and *Laugh*

Firstly, while TFU is considered cannon I'd like to point out that the movies, a higher grade of cannon, state that Yoda and Palpy are the 2 most powerful raw force users, meaning little to no lightsaber use, pure force if you wish. While these two titans of strength were dueling exclusively with the force the largest object either one could affect was the car sized senate platforms and only for a short time. This shows that while in combat even the most powerful force-user has some pretty severe limits. I doubt that any force user, including the vaunted Starkiller, has the stamina and strength to not only push one but several cubes into a star against the occupant's will.

True, however in Voyager the solution to a paradox seemed to be "to hell with it, try again". Also, these 200 gigaton guns, what the devil does that matter? A gigaton is 1 billion tons, a measure of weight. It sounds to me like an author threw out a cool-sounding word. Unless gigaton could be retconned into something like when they threw out parsecs when talking about the Kessel Run.

A gigaton is not a measure of weight. It is a unit of measurement specifically for explosive force.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gigaton

Try to read a little bit more of what words mean before making claims. Loud ignorance only makes you look foolish.

Not even that.

He didn't use a weapon at all.

Which is what, in the end, worked. Once.

I take it you did not see First Contact?

A gigaton is not a measure of weight. It is a unit of measurement specifically for explosive force.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gigaton

Try to read a little bit more of what words mean before making claims. Loud ignorance only makes you look foolish.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gigaton
first definition
Try to read a little bit more of what words mean before making claims. Loud ignorance only makes you look foolish.

and the Thompson in First Contact is holographic, photons and forcefields, not steel and slugs

I take it you did not see First Contact?
He was on the holodeck, what he was shooting with was not a replicated gun, but a trick of lights and forcefields. The bullets were said, deliberately, to be holographic bullets.

While these two titans of strength were dueling exclusively with the force the largest object either one could affect was the car sized senate platforms and only for a short time.

Yoda was shown to have lifted a flooded X-wing for approximately half a minute from the bottom of a swamp. And the second movie had Yoda holding up a rather large support column that was falling if I remember correctly. Both are somewhat larger than a car sized platform.

Try to read a little bit more of what words mean before making claims. Loud ignorance only makes you look foolish.

Explain your earlier proclamation that it could only mean weight then please.

And every single clone that hits the ground becomes one of the enemy...

That's the thing about the Borg, they're a real game-breaker.

SW versus ST-minus-Borg, I'm probably going advantage SW (probably, you can't really factor the Dominion very well, either).

SW versus ST-including-Borg? Borg win. Borg win it all. Unless 8472 become involved.

If the Borg are really enough to conquer the entire SW universe, why haven't they conquered the piddling Federation yet?

He was on the holodeck, what he was shooting with was not a replicated gun, but a trick of lights and forcefields. The bullets were said, deliberately, to be holographic bullets.

Well, here's a tricky question to ask then. How do you interact with a hologram as a physical object? Certainly, smart tracking can move an object in accordance to however you interact with it, but you'll have no pressure, no sense of hot or cold or anything beyond visual cues that the object you're holding is real.

Also, photons wouldn't create friction sparks when being striking metal bits now would it?

Or for that matter, leave uncauterized bullet holes in organic flesh.

If the Borg are really enough to conquer the entire SW universe, why haven't they conquered the piddling Federation yet?

They installed Windows ME on their OS. :p

It's hard to blockade a system when a ship can just zoom by at several hundred times the speed of light. I doubt that the Empire's sensors, which seem to operate in the EM spectrum and therefore travel at the speed of light, would even detect a FTL ship in real space until after it passed. If true, a guerrilla war composed of warp-speed torpedo runs would leave the Empire's ships helpless unless they have the capability to put up a constant stream of turbolaser 'flak' at all times for a warp ship to run into.

Also, the beginnings of the Battle of Hoth show that the Imperials are extremely overconfident. They came out of hyperspace away from Hoth when, according to Vader's anger over the issue, the capability exists to arrive much closer. -1 point in strategic planning, one would assume that the Admiral of Vader's personal fleet would be intelligent.

The guy he got replaced with was. I forget his name, but he managed not to piss Vader off enough to kill him and even did well until dying in battle at Endor, which the Rebel Alliance won pretty narrowly, due to several factors (mostly of course that narrow victories are dramatic and make better movies), after basically engaging in a suicidal charge with their starfleet when it became apparent that the Death Star was operational.

And despite the tactical blunder you mentioned at the battle of Hoth, they still won that one quite decisively.

They installed Windows ME on their OS. :p

Oh, I see. That'll do it. Pretty much all my conquest of the universe plans were set back when I made that mistake a few years ago, too. Perfectly understandable.

In that case, would they be fighting before or after they installed Windows ME?

If the Borg are really enough to conquer the entire SW universe, why haven't they conquered the piddling Federation yet?

Because they have paid us little or no attention. They wouldn't even have found us quite yet, if it wasn't for (one of the) Q deciding to give us a bit of a heads-up.

Also - it looks like they already have a war which is taking up most of their time, which is probably why they hadn't got quite as far as us, yet. (We know they'd been in our ballpark-ish, because they ate Guinan's home-system).

As soon as they work out a solution to 8472, though....

All I can say about holoprojection is read this article.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Holodeck
I don't want to bother to explain that, what I will say was that they were A: on the holodeck and B:Holographic weapons can kill if the safeties are off.
My comment on the 200 gigaton guns was based on knowledge that gigaton is a measure of the explosive force of a bomb, however, a gigaton would certainly not be used to describe the power of a gun, unless the gun fired explosive projectiles. Regardless, the tonnage of a weapon means very little when you don't know the mechanics of detonation nor energy released. The 200 gigaton guns are irrelevant.

Well, here's a tricky question to ask then. How do you interact with a hologram as a physical object? Certainly, smart tracking can move an object in accordance to however you interact with it, but you'll have no pressure, no sense of hot or cold or anything beyond visual cues that the object you're holding is real.

Also, photons wouldn't create friction sparks when being striking metal bits now would it?

Or for that matter, leave uncauterized bullet holes in organic flesh.

You can hurt someone with the field manipulations that make hologramatic equipment 'feel' real. But, to do it, you have to take of the hologram safety protocols.

Picard pointed a hologram at a Borg, which - one assumes - immediately made adjustments to accomodate a primitive ballistic weapon. When he pulled the trigger, the Borg wasn't hit by bullets or energy (although hologramatic flares would accompany the hologramatic projectile), but what LOOKED like a hologramatic bullet.

The hologram itself did no damage. The gun fired no real ammunition.

On the other hand, the field generators of the holodeck punched several holes through the target.

Oh, I see. That'll do it. Pretty much all my conquest of the universe plans were set back when I made that mistake a few years ago, too. Perfectly understandable.

In that case, would they be fighting before or after they installed Windows ME?

They did try fighting back for a while. The OS didn't totally cripple them. Then they found solitaire. This lasted a while until it was discovered they were using an unlicensed copy. Once it called home, the USS Microsoft showed up, launching survivors of the great Lawyer purge of 2105 as part of their initial offensive. The following use of legal red tape banned by the rest of the Galaxy cost the entire Borg collective not only all their arms and legs, which was subsequently used to augment their lawyers, but their cube ships too.

Well, here's a tricky question to ask then. How do you interact with a hologram as a physical object? Certainly, smart tracking can move an object in accordance to however you interact with it, but you'll have no pressure, no sense of hot or cold or anything beyond visual cues that the object you're holding is real.
The same way that the Doctor holds an interment in Voyager's sickbay. Obviously they haven't replicated a human or human flesh, it's all done with forcefields which, as has been shown many, many times, provide feedback.

Also, photons wouldn't create friction sparks when being striking metal bits now would it?
See the force field bit. What Picard was shooting was little mobile force fields.

Or for that matter, leave uncauterized bullet holes in organic flesh.
Alright, let me ask you in return, why would a holodeck, created for entertainment, replicate an actual gun when the chance of an accident would be high? TNG has shown that most of the things on the holodeck cease to exist when moved off it. Why make an actual deadly weapon that could not be controlled by the computer if moved off the holodeck? What's to keep the very real bullets from hitting someone or damaging the deck itself (Picard empties a clip, now not all of those bullets hit Borg and yet I didn't see the usual distortion pattern when something actually physical hits the wall of the holodeck, did you)?

Besides, here's the exact quote:
Lily: "I don't get it. I thought you said this was all just a bunch of holograms. If it's holograms, how . . . "
Picard: "I disengaged the safety protocols. Without them, even a holographic bullet can kill."

You can hurt someone with the field manipulations that make hologramatic equipment 'feel' real. But, to do it, you have to take of the hologram safety protocols.

So how do you provide a sense of hot and cold then? Or what about other tactile senses that you get when say, putting a finger on a thin film of oil? There's a bunch of questions that wouldn't be answered by a be all "fields and photons" answer. But then again, this is sci-fi, so handwavium is to be expected.

?The holodeck pumps massive amounts of drugs into the occupant's systems, they get so high they think they feel hot and cold.

The Imperium of Man would defeat both.

Empire vs. Federation: Federation would win, because the writers, being American, would ensure that the good guys win. (Besides, the Federation would ally themselves with the Rebellion, who already managed to win by themselves.)

ST universe vs. SW universe: Stalemate, because the opposing writers would never allow their franchise to lose. Although some fans would run away from both franchises in disgust, there would always be some holdouts stupid enough to maintain interest in both, thus assuring residual income and stalemate.

The Imperium of Man would defeat both.

Ah yes the Imperium, where the laws of the universe dictate that if something is ancient and handmade it is orders of magnitude more powerful and amazing than anything else. Therefore, ancient Macedonians would easily defeat opponents from the year 40,000.

You know, I'm not going to actually let myself be drawn into this, but I do have something to say on the whole gigantic figures stuff.

When I was a big debater in the Versus Debate, one item that always caught everyone's attention was the canon argument. There's a lot of confusion over whether Star Wars books actually count for canon. The Expanded Universe is full of contradictions and low and high figures, from books that show that the data transmission rate of communications is less than 3gb/s, to the stats books(which, and let's be perfectly honest, were obviously written just to make Star Wars look super powerful specifically for the Versus Debate) that claim ridiculous 200 gigaton figures, etc etc.

If I was still in it, personally, I'd say toss out the EU for the contradictions alone, as well as for fairness, since Star Trek doesn't have its books, and there's no clear understanding of whether the EU is actually canon or not. (A lot of statements can be taken either way, and who exactly determines canon at Lucasfilms is unclear, especially since George Lucas himself has stated that the EU is a separate universe, while others have stated otherwise.)

Anyway, I just thought I'd toss that in there for those arguing.

As for me, I am and always will be a firm Trekkie, and I've never been a fan of Star Wars. Star Trek is just plain written better on the whole(not always, but often) and actually features interesting stuff, like "Measure of a Man" rather than pointless space fantasy dressed up as a good story. (Seriously, if John Williams hadn't composed the soundtrack, I think Star Wars would've been one of those cult-B-movie films rather than the "super fun" thing it's enjoyed as.)

Ah yes the Imperium, where the laws of the universe dictate that if something is ancient and handmade it is orders of magnitude more powerful and amazing than anything else. Therefore, ancient Macedonians would easily defeat opponents from the year 40,000.

That's gotta be the logic of, like, every Japanese RPG ever.

Ah yes the Imperium, where the laws of the universe dictate that if something is ancient and handmade it is orders of magnitude more powerful and amazing than anything else. Therefore, ancient Macedonians would easily defeat opponents from the year 40,000.

The Imperium is in a religious dark age, is steadily losing technological know how through entropy and is making no strides forward in researching their own, or at least in any way resembling the scientific method.

So yes, anything that came before the dark age and still survives intact is actually more advanced than what they have.

The Tau on the other hand, are actually more advanced than the Imperium, and are making steady technological strides. Their offset is that they are tiny in terms of territory and total forces.

[/nitpick]

Most of these, of course, hinge on which side a debater likes more, even if their actual arguments are well thought out. Trekkies are going to argue for Star Trek. Star Wars fans will generally argue that in a war between the two universes, Star Wars would win.

When the Federation first encountered the Domionion, their shields were useless. Yet, when the Dominion first made an all-out attack on DS9, the station held its ground for quite some time. Weyoun even commented on how Federation shields had always been shown to be useless against Dominion firepower, to which Dukat replied with something about the resourcefulness of Sisko.

The point to take home is, the Federation adapted to completely new and unencountered technology, very adequately, very quickly. But adapting is what the Borg do best. There is no way anyone can argue that the Borg wouldn't adapt to all Imperial weaponry given a bit of time. But assimilation makes adaption happen much quicker. All the Borg need to do is assimilate one engineer who knows a bit about shields and guns on Imperial cruisers, and a star destroyer becomes useless against a Cube overnight.

As someone mentioned in the thread, the Empire, when they conquer a planet, tend to just make it a weapons factory planet. This would work for the Borg better than anything ever. All the Borg need to do is beam a few drones down to the planet and assimilate it, and the Borg have complete access to Imperial weaponry, both adapting it to Borg technology, and immunising Borg technology against it.

And how many planets in the Empire have at least a small Imperial presence on them? All the Borg would need to do is assimilate a planet with just a couple of stormtroopers and an officer, and the Borg would know the entire tactical situation of the Empire, from locations of core worlds, to basic computer technology, to blaster weapons, to working knowledge of Imperial vehicles. The Empire have no such way to gain so much information so easily or quickly.

THIS is the pinnacle of the Borg's achievement. The ability to adapt. The reason the Borg didn't destroy 8472 quickly is because of assimilating complications. But humans are quite easily assimilatable, and we usually only see human imperial officers. Imperial technology is as alien to the Borg as Federation technology first was, and we saw how pathetic the Enterprise was against a Cube.

Arguing the survival of the Empire against a Borg invasion is as futile as resistance itself.

Senario one is a total war

Scenario, not senario.
Anyway, SW and Empire, respectively. The Force (the Farce) + faster ships + Death Star.
The first scenario would be more balanced (the Borgs and transwarp), but SW anyway.

Arguing the survival of the Empire against a Borg invasion is as futile as resistance itself.

Seeing how often the Borg lost, resistance is actually quite likely to succeed.

Now, given that Borg sheilds are probably in the low Gigaton range, and officially an Acclamator troop ship has 200 Gigaton guns...

pfft, just one photon torpedo (25 or 200 isoton warhead) has an explosive yield of 690 gigatons.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Isoton

A 54 isoton yield gravimetric charge could blow up a small planet. (VOY: "The Omega Directive")

A 5 million isoton explosion of a multi-kinetic neutronic mine could affect an entire star system. The shock wave had a dispersive force radius of 5 light years. (VOY: "Scorpion, Part II")

this would also suggest ST shields are very highly powered to withstand multiple hits from high yield photon torpedoes

I agree fighting the Borg would be a nightmare. But the Federation and Species 8472 both stopped them, so it can be done.


1. the Federation only ever stopped a few Borg vessels, never a fleet

2. species 8472 were a real threat to the Borg, largely because their technology was utterly alien and unadaptable - their weapons, propulsion, power systems and physiology. the Empire, however, would likely not pose such difficulties in adaptation and assimilation.

You know, I'm not going to actually let myself be drawn into this, but I do have something to say on the whole gigantic figures stuff.

When I was a big debater in the Versus Debate, one item that always caught everyone's attention was the canon argument. There's a lot of confusion over whether Star Wars books actually count for canon. The Expanded Universe is full of contradictions and low and high figures, from books that show that the data transmission rate of communications is less than 3gb/s, to the stats books(which, and let's be perfectly honest, were obviously written just to make Star Wars look super powerful specifically for the Versus Debate) that claim ridiculous 200 gigaton figures, etc etc.

If I was still in it, personally, I'd say toss out the EU for the contradictions alone, as well as for fairness, since Star Trek doesn't have its books, and there's no clear understanding of whether the EU is actually canon or not. (A lot of statements can be taken either way, and who exactly determines canon at Lucasfilms is unclear, especially since George Lucas himself has stated that the EU is a separate universe, while others have stated otherwise.)

Anyway, I just thought I'd toss that in there for those arguing.

As for me, I am and always will be a firm Trekkie, and I've never been a fan of Star Wars. Star Trek is just plain written better on the whole(not always, but often) and actually features interesting stuff, like "Measure of a Man" rather than pointless space fantasy dressed up as a good story. (Seriously, if John Williams hadn't composed the soundtrack, I think Star Wars would've been one of those cult-B-movie films rather than the "super fun" thing it's enjoyed as.)

I'm only going to say one thing, which is that despite its contradictions, the EU is official, and if Star Trek and Star Wars have different rules determining what is and is not part of their universe, that's not my problem. The Empire doesn't have the Borg, so we better give them some to make it "fair." The Federation doesn't have a Death Star, so lets give them one to make it "fair". And on and on it goes, until both sides are identical. Oh, wait, that kind of defeats the point, doesn't it?

I don't like most of the EU, but if you have to change the rules and cut half the other sides reasources to make it "fair", that doesn't say much about the strength of your side, does it?

[QUOTE=Pure Metal;14051394]pfft, just one photon torpedo (25 or 200 isoton warhead) has an explosive yield of 690 gigatons.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Isoton

An official source please? For Trek, that's pretty much limited to movies and TV shows.


Estimates I've heard put photon torpedos in the 60 megaton range. But until you can either provide a quote or calculate the power from on screen visuals, neither means much.

So how do you provide a sense of hot and cold then? Or what about other tactile senses that you get when say, putting a finger on a thin film of oil? There's a bunch of questions that wouldn't be answered by a be all "fields and photons" answer. But then again, this is sci-fi, so handwavium is to be expected.

It's a while since I really was involved in that side of it - Smunkee could probably write a huge treatise on it. :)

But yes - I think it's mainly done by modulations in field technology.

I discount all SW:EU that takes place after RotJ. Anything that does a MAJOR contradiction of the established films ain't worth the paper its printed on.

So Lucas's official policy means squat to you? Just clarifying.

That's only if they are entirely unshielded. Even a RL shield would defend against sand, dust or small trash.



Snip

That depends on the velocity of those objects, whipple shields are an amazing thing in comparison to standard armoring but they still have a penetration curve like any other armor and have only been tested with light or realitivly slow moving particles (compared the large C fractional velocities that these ships can hope to obtain)

an isoton is a Trek-only measurement I believe, that means we have to go by some other measurements.
Like...
A photon torpedo explosion of 25 isotons could destroy an entire city within seconds. (VOY: "Living Witness")
A 54 isoton yield gravimetric charge could blow up a small planet. (VOY: "The Omega Directive")
A Quantum Torpedo has a yield of 50+ isotons. Therefore 2 torpedos can blow up a small planet or moon.

Now, if the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, can be considered canon. Which it should not be because although it was written by the technical advisers to TNG there are a bunch of contradictions. Then the yield of a quantum torpedo can be calculated to 690 gigatons, with the high firing rate of torpedos from most ships this gives comparable ship-to-ship firepower.

Star Trek wins.


You know why?

Cloaking.

Star Trek wins.


You know why?

Cloaking.

There's cloaking in Star Wars as well. "That ship's too small to have a cloaking device."

It's a while since I really was involved in that side of it - Smunkee could probably write a huge treatise on it. :)

Because Smunkee outgeeks us all.

*:hail: teh Smunk*

Because Smunkee outgeeks us all.

*:hail: teh Smunk*

True, this.

When I rule the world, Smunkee will be Minister of Geekiness.

I'm only going to say one thing, which is that despite its contradictions, the EU is official, and if Star Trek and Star Wars have different rules determining what is and is not part of their universe, that's not my problem. The Empire doesn't have the Borg, so we better give them some to make it "fair." The Federation doesn't have a Death Star, so lets give them one to make it "fair". And on and on it goes, until both sides are identical. Oh, wait, that kind of defeats the point, doesn't it?

I don't like most of the EU, but if you have to change the rules and cut half the other sides reasources to make it "fair", that doesn't say much about the strength of your side, does it?

My point is that the EU is a source that is full of contradictions and it's far too easy to let people pick out whatever they want that's super good for them while ignoring everything bad.

Case in point, the source books, which I again point out were very obviously written to make Star Wars look super powerful in the Versus Debate.

The issue of fairness here isn't one of "let's balance the sides" so much as it is "let's keep the information and consistency level consistent."

It's rather like on most other debates here where we try to establish sources that aren't obviously biased in one way or another. I mean, what if, say, a pro-Trekkie Versus Debater decided to go out and write a new EU sourcebook labeling things like turbolasers as having the power of a wet paper bag, etc etc? Would that be equally considered along with sourcebooks that state the other extreme?

That's what I meant by fairness. You have to establish consistency, and the EU doesn't have it anymore than Star Trek books have it.

(Again, I honestly don't really give that much of a damn...I just feel like trying to arbitrate this because if it's not arbitrated then what little point there is in debating the subject is entirely lost.)