NationStates Jolt Archive

Tilting at windmills again, but rumor has it that McCain went way frickin' wildcard with his choice...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/29/mccain.vp/index.html

Fox news confirms with John McCain Campaign Popular Alaska Governor Sarah Palin is John McCain's Vice Presidential choice.

Are expected to appear together at Dayton Ohio in about 20 to 30 minutes or so. I expected an official announcement around 12:000 noon to 12:30.

A women for Vice President of the United States. An awesome choice. I

I will provide a more official link shortly. I think is a pretty good bet it is Governor of Alaska Sarah Palin. I will try to provide the link to Fox news.

Happy Birthday John McCain.

1. An awesome choice

2. A great choice

3. A good choice

4. A Bad choice.


Home | John McCain, Mitt Romney, Vice Presidency
Alaska Gov. Palin to be Named as McCain Running Mate
by FOXNews.com
Friday, August 29, 2008

Aug. 27: Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney is seen as a possible running mate selection. (AP)

DAYTON, Ohio – John McCain will introduce Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin to be his vice presidential running mate at an event here at noon Friday, senior campaign sources confirmed to FOX News.

Palin emerged earlier in the day as the hot name in the VP sweepstakes after reports circulated that two short-listers — Mitt Romney and Tim Pawlenty — were out of the running.

Adding fuel to the Palin candidacy was a report that a charter aircraft from Anchorage owned by a McCain supporter had arrived at a small airport outside Dayton, Ohio, where McCain has scheduled a noon ET rally to announce his choice.

FOX News reported the jet flew to Flagstaff, Ariz., on Thursday before heading landing in Middletown, Ohio.

Palin is considered a rising star in the Republican Party. She is the state’s first female governor, the mother of five — and at 44 is its youngest chief executive.

FOX News confirmed Thursday that McCain had made his selection and would appear with his pick at the Dayton rally.

Born in Idaho, Palin moved to Alaska with her parents, to Charles and Sally Heath, when she was 3 months old.

She grew up in Wasilla, just outside of Anchorage, and played on the Wasilla state championship girls’ basketball team. She was crowned Miss Wasilla in 1984 and was a runner-up in the Miss Alaska pageant.

Palin studied journalism and political science at the University of Idaho and graduated in 1987. She eloped with her high school boyfriend, Todd Palin, in 1988 to save money on an expensive wedding. She helped out in her husband’s family commercial fishing business and appeared occasionally as a television sportscaster.

Palin won a seat on the Wasilla City Council in 1992 as a new face and a new voice, and by opposing tax increases. Four years later she was elected mayor at 32 by knocking off a three-term incumbent. At the end of her second term, party leaders encouraged her to enter the 2002 race for the Republican nomination for lieutenant governor. Against veteran legislators with far more experience, Palin finished second by fewer than 2,000 votes, making a name for herself in statewide politics. She was elected Alaska’s youngest and first woman governor in 2006.

Sarah and Todd Palin have five children: boys Track, 19, and Trig, 4 months, and daughters Bristol, 17, Willow, 13, and Piper, 7. Track Palin joined the Army last September and will deploy to Iraq on Sept. 11. Palin gave birth to Trig, who has Down syndrome, in April and returned to work three days later.

Palin will be the second female vice presidential candidate from a major political party. The first was New York Rep. Geraldine Ferrarro, who was Walter Mondale’s Democratic running mate in 1984.

Earlier in the day, sources told FOX News that Romney was not going to be McCain’s choice, even
though the former Massachusetts governor is scheduled to appear at the
Dayton rally.

And Pawlenty told a Minneapolis radio station that he was not going to be in Dayton for the McCain announcement.

“I’m going to be at the [Minnesota] state fair,” Pawlenty said on WCCO.

“I will not be in Dayton, Ohio, so I think that’s a fair
assumption,” the Minnesota governor said when asked if this was an
indication that he would not be McCain’s running mate.

“It was an honor to be considered,” he added.

Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, who like Romney was a rival to
McCain in the primaries, sent an e-mail to supporters on Thursday
evening saying he would not be at the rally. Sources later told FOX
News that Huckabee was not in the running.

FOX News’ Carl Cameron and the Almanac of American Politics contributed to this report.

I hope he forgets. That'll make for fun times. :)

CNN and MSNBC are reporting confirmation from senior McCain advisors that it is this Palin person.

CNN and MSNBC are reporting confirmation from senior McCain advisors that it is this Palin person.

This Palin person?

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200711/r199563_762825.jpg

A women for Vice President of the United States. An awesome choice.

So, you go on and on about Obama's "substance" and then make the pitch that she's a good choice for VP BECAUSE she's female?

Gives the Dems opportunity to counter attack the GOP's charges of Obama lacking substance if McCain chooses a former beauty queen for a running mate. I'm not saying it would be deserved (I know little about Gov. Palin), just that it will likely happen.

Wait is this FOX, well then they must be making it up all we know is that she isn't his choice :rolleyes:

CNN and MSNBC are reporting confirmation from senior McCain advisors that it is this Palin person.

Wow. That wasn't an entirely cynical and political choice.

Side note:

MAGNIFICENT! McCain just lost the ONE cudgel he had to hit Obama with, the age.

Though I'll admit I'd like to, shall we say, share a bed with McCain's VP nominee.

And there is the fact that she's female, but I don't think it'll turn women voters to McCain that much.

Side note:

MAGNIFICENT! McCain just lost the ONE cudgel he had to hit Obama with, the age.

Though I'll admit I'd like to, shall we say, share a bed with McCain's VP nominee.

And there is the fact that she's female, but I don't think it'll turn women voters to McCain that much.

She's anti-choice if I recall correctly, so hopefully that will drive a number of women away from her.

Gives the Dems opportunity to counter attack the GOP's charges of Obama lacking substance if McCain chooses a former beauty queen for a running mate. I'm not saying it would be deserved (I know little about Gov. Palin), just that it will likely happen.

How is that? She has the same number of years in office and more governing experience than Obama.


EDIT: the lady is a working mom of five, has good ethics proven by her fighting corrupt politicians in her own party, proven energy policy in Alaska and canada natural gas pipeline treaties etc., and womens rights goes without saying. Looks like a very strong conservative candidate for VP to me.

I find it amusing that Obama picked a candidate that will help him get things done when he wins and McCain picked someone he hopes will help him win.

It would be in everyone's interest if Presidents would worry about preparing for the job, not trying every underhanded way they can to get into the job.

Wow. That wasn't an entirely cynical and political choice.

I dunno, I'd say that this is McCain's equivalent.

Obama had to choose a cratchety old white dude, with significant FoPo experience to counter McCain's claims to that area of expertise (esp., the cratchety old white dude-ness).

McCain needed a younger partner, with some sort of non-traditional Presidential demographic characteristic.

Well, just picking a woman, period, is a smart move that's at least partly targeted at those Hillary supporters apparently still stupidly disgruntled at Obama. And everyone else who would have considered a team of two white men too same-old in comparison to Obama.

Wow. That wasn't an entirely cynical and political choice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin

Low blow struck by McCain, it seems. Nominate a woman just to spit in the Democrat's faces, or at least that's how he'll use it.

I dunno, I'd say that this is McCain's equivalent.

Obama had to choose a cratchety old white dude, with significant FoPo experience to counter McCain's claims to that area of expertise (esp., the cratchety old white dude-ness).

McCain needed a younger partner, with some sort of non-traditional Presidential demographic characteristic.

She's even younger than Obama... and yet McCain has been attacking youth and inexperience. I hope the Obama campaign isn't shy to call McCain a liar.

And, at least Obama's pick looked genuine. Biden has a reputation. Palin looks like she was picked because she has... a vagina.

Down with this thread! We already have a thread about VP choices! Use that one! Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

I find it amusing that Obama picked a candidate that will help him get things done when he wins and McCain picked someone he hopes will help him win.

It would be in everyone's interest if Presidents would worry about preparing for the job, not trying every underhanded way they can to get into the job.

I was arguing this with my father some time ago. Hilariously, his choice then was either Clinton or Biden, while mine was Sebelius, and Biden should've technically been the person I should've been arguing for, since I was arguing for the sake of nominating someone to help him get things done.

McCain's going to play this up as much as he can. Time will tell what effect this has.

Down with this thread! We already have a thread about VP choices! Use that one! Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

this isn't about choices, it's about talking about the good and bad of the winner.

I find it amusing that Obama picked a candidate that will help him get things done when he wins and McCain picked someone he hopes will help him win.

It would be in everyone's interest if Presidents would worry about preparing for the job, not trying every underhanded way they can to get into the job.

Well, her NRA links will help him... errr... deal with lobbyists?

And her admission she was a pothead will help with.... errr.

Um. Well, she was a runner-up in Miss Alaska. That's GOT to be some use in a VP, right?

Down with this thread! We already have a thread about VP choices! Use that one! Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
but this one has fox news involved so its different

Well, just picking a woman, period, is a smart move that's at least partly targeted at those Hillary supporters apparently still stupidly disgruntled at Obama. And everyone else who would have considered a team of two white men too same-old in comparison to Obama.
Of course, picking the runner-up Miss Alaska does shoot a hole in the "associates with celebrities" mud the McCain campaign has been slinging at Obama.

Question, what's the inuit word for "bimbo"?

I find it amusing that Obama picked a candidate that will help him get things done when he wins and McCain picked someone he hopes will help him win.

It would be in everyone's interest if Presidents would worry about preparing for the job, not trying every underhanded way they can to get into the job.

A Vice President as window dressing? Surely this travesty will undermine such an historic and important executive role.

She's even younger than Obama... and yet McCain has been attacking youth and inexperience. I hope the Obama campaign isn't shy to call McCain a liar.

And, at least Obama's pick looked genuine. Biden has a reputation. Palin looks like she was picked because she has... a vagina.

I'd say there's probably more than that. McCain was in a tight spot as far as his VP nomination was concerned. Not to say her vag had nothing to do with it, it likely did, but I think it's more complex, and not because of any particular positives on her part either.

He and Romney can't get along to save their own lives, so he would have been an awful choice (from McCain's POV, of course). Pawlenty is too divisive within his own state to even make it competitive. Ridge, presided over the creation of the massive pile of incompetence that is DHS, and doesn't appeal to the Republican base. Calling Lieberman a candidate is a joke.

The negatives of the others all seem to overshadow the negative of her age and limited experience. The other, similar, option, Jindal, has those problems, only magnified because he's even younger and less experienced.

It's not a great choice, that's for sure. It's hardly even a good choice, but it was better than the alternatives.

Of course, in Ohio, James Rhodes picked a Lieutenant Governor based off of his lack of negatives, and his pick, George Voinovich, is now my Senator, and was my governor for eight years.

Um. Well, she was a runner-up in Miss Alaska. That's GOT to be some use in a VP, right?Motivated by jealousy that Obama was getting the celebrity vote.

A Vice President as window dressing? Surely this travesty will undermine such an historic and important executive role.

The Vice President, as President of the Senate, can make or break a President's policies. Without a Vice President who can work well in the Senate, the President will generally find it a lot harder to get their policies through.

This is why, for instance, Obama chose Biden, because Biden knows how to get things through the Senate.

I'd say there's probably more than that. McCain was in a tight spot as far as his VP nomination was concerned. Not to say her vag had nothing to do with it, it likely did, but I think it's more complex, and not because of any particular positives on her part either.

He and Romney can't get along to save their own lives, so he would have been an awful choice (from McCain's POV, of course). Pawlenty is too divisive within his own state to even make it competitive. Ridge, presided over the creation of the massive pile of incompetence that is DHS, and doesn't appeal to the Republican base. Calling Lieberman a candidate is a joke.

The negatives of the others all seem to overshadow the negative of her age and limited experience. The other, similar, option, Jindal, has those problems, only magnified because he's even younger and less experienced.

It's not a great choice, that's for sure. It's hardly even a good choice, but it was better than the alternatives.

Of course, in Ohio, James Rhodes picked a Lieutenant Governor based off of his lack of negatives, and his pick, George Voinovich, is now my Senator, and was my governor for eight years.

Still McCain loses the "youth and inexperience" cudgel. Also, I needed someone who knows the inuit word for "bimbo".

Interesting choice for President of the Senate. Her stance on ethics and reputation as a political outsider probably appeals to McCain. But can someone so new to the scene keep from being stomped senseless by the Senate?

Also, considering McCain, if elected will be the oldest man ever to BE elected, I suspect we should consider whether she'll make a good President. :p

Motivated by jealousy that Obama was getting the celebrity vote.

Yeah... I was trying to think of how it might be useful if they win, though...

McCain as the next Sarkozy, maybe?

A Vice President as window dressing? Surely this travesty will undermine such an historic and important executive role.

The VP is the president of the senate. That some Presidents are too bad at leadership to put a proper individual in that role isn't an argument for continuing to do so.

There was a time when choosing a secretary because she was goodlooking wasn't uncommon, but I'd still fire any executive who chose his/hers that way.

Yeah... I was trying to think of how it might be useful if they win, though...

McCain as the next Sarkozy, maybe?"Speedy" McCain? Surely you jest...

A Vice President as window dressing? Surely this travesty will undermine such an historic and important executive role.

Well, McCain's really pretty old, and he's taking an extremely stressful job with a high mortality rate. His VP has a good chance of becoming President should he win.

The Vice President, as President of the Senate, can make or break a President's policies. Without a Vice President who can work well in the Senate, the President will generally find it a lot harder to get their policies through.

This is why, for instance, Obama chose Biden, because Biden knows how to get things through the Senate.

And, of course... the real point of a VP is to become the... er. P... if the P happens to explode, fall down dead, or be abducted by aliens.

Obama picked one of the best alternatives teh Democrats might have to offer for that role. McCain picked... someone he thinks will help him get elected by minority voters.

Interesting choice for President of the Senate. Her stance on ethics and reputation as a political outsider probably appeals to McCain. But can someone so new to the scene keep from being stomped senseless by the Senate?

She's proven her willingness to fight even her own party, she overthrew a sitting Republican governor, and fired his lackies, she doesn't seem shy.

Also, considering McCain, if elected will be the oldest man ever to BE elected, I suspect we should consider whether she'll make a good President. :p

It WOULD make for porn movie material. "Oh, I'll (insert sexual verb) you if you don't nuke us, mr. Ahmadinejad." and so on.

How is that? She has the same number of years in office and more governing experience than Obama.


EDIT: the lady is a working mom of five, has good ethics proven by her fighting corrupt politicians in her own party, proven energy policy in Alaska and canada natural gas pipeline treaties etc., and womens rights goes without saying. Looks like a very strong conservative candidate for VP to me.
Specifically, her opposition to them.

She's proven her willingness to fight even her own party, she overthrew a sitting Republican governor, and fired his lackies, she doesn't seem shy.

Did she say she's in favor of world peace? :p

It WOULD make for porn movie material. "Oh, I'll (insert sexual verb) you if you don't nuke us, mr. Ahmadinejad." and so on.

She could tour Saudi Arabia in a tube top and miniskirt. :)

And, of course... the real point of a VP is to become the... er. P... if the P happens to explode, fall down dead, or be abducted by aliens.

Obama picked one of the best alternatives teh Democrats might have to offer for that role. McCain picked... someone he thinks will help him get elected by minority voters.

And he's wrong on that. Picking a pro-life woman to court the woman vote is like picking Clarence Thomas to court the black vote.

She could tour Saudi Arabia in a tube top and miniskirt. :)

To fap, to fap, LeChaim! LeChaim, LeChaim, to fap!

It WOULD make for porn movie material. "Oh, I'll (insert sexual verb) you if you don't nuke us, mr. Ahmadinejad." and so on.

Oh there you go :rolleyes:

Next we'll be hearing about how Obama should be in porns because black men are supposed to be well hung?

And he's wrong on that. Picking a pro-life woman to court the woman vote is like picking Clarence Thomas to court the black vote.

As in, it won't work?

I wonder if she uses the words "like" and "totally" many times in her speeches.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=562614

Go here!

And he's wrong on that. Picking a pro-life woman to court the woman vote is like picking Clarence Thomas to court the black vote.

Well, I'm thinking he's targetting disenfranchised Clinton voters (and those who won't vote for a black president, who might call themselves disenfranchised Clinton voters).... so he's taking a gamble on whether they'd rather vote for 'his girl' than Obama.

Well, I'm thinking he's targetting disenfranchised Clinton voters (and those who won't vote for a black president, who might call themselves disenfranchised Clinton voters).... so he's taking a gamble on whether they'd rather vote for 'his girl' than Obama.

That could work, I suppose.

Oh there you go :rolleyes:

Next we'll be hearing about how Obama should be in porns because black men are supposed to be well hung?

Well, no, but with Sarah Palin, we're talking former runner-up to Miss Alaska, here. She's, to borrow words she likely speaks, "like, so totally" sexy.

Oh there you go :rolleyes:

Next we'll be hearing about how Obama should be in porns because black men are supposed to be well hung?

The President-Erect. :)

The thinking seems to be that while popular first term Governor of Alaska Sarah Palin does not have national experience. She has executive knowledge as Governor of Alaska.


Bob Beckle, a major Obama McCain campaign advisor, I probably have his name wrong, will edit to the right name and position as soon as possible.

Was on Fox news at the time, he seemed to react to the news. As a risky out of the box choice, but a good choice for McCain, a surprise choice. He seemed very sincere, not putting on an act in favor of Obama.

Is he a campaign advisor, or supporter I honestly dont know, and will edit the post in a correct maner. Thanks.

I am in the middle of a business meeting myself. have not slept since Wednesday night. I am an insamniac and part vampire. I Cancelled my erant this moorning to keep up with the news of McCains VP choice., and wanted to be the first ot break the news on NS Jolt Co Uk Forums, and I did. Your Thread Host OP, Miami Shores.

That could work, I suppose.

He WILL lose a lot of the more misogynistic cons, though. And the convention seems to have solved the unity issue. I think and hope McCain shot himself in the foot by putting the bimbo in...

Well, no, but with Sarah Palin, we're talking former runner-up to Miss Alaska, here. She's, to borrow words she likely speaks, "like, so totally" sexy.

Rather, I think it was just a sexist comment.

Rather, I think it was just a sexist comment.

What's the URL for that "Oh, Jeez, not this shit again" poster? Because I got this crap during the Hillary victimization fest...

He WILL lose a lot of the more misogynistic cons, though. And the convention seems to have solved the unity issue. I think and hope McCain shot himself in the foot by putting the bimbo in...

And you imagine that 'those' people are just sexist and not racist too? Who else will they vote for? As for me, I don't care if women hating racists don't vote at all.

Still McCain loses the "youth and inexperience" cudgel. Also, I needed someone who knows the inuit word for "bimbo".

Oh, come on. What're you going to do, go get yourself deleted again and then whine about how Palin cost you your 2? :rolleyes:

Grave_n_idle: Indeed. I've always felt that's a secondary role for the VP, though, because it really doesn't happen all that often. And to be honest, I think treating the VP as if they're nothing more than a nice little specialized gear to replace the one currently in use is wasteful, not to mention disrespectful of their own political work, depending upon what it is.

I can tell you this much though: from what I've looked up about Sarah Palin's political career(Wikipedia only thus far, admittedly) I'm not looking too kindly on her ability to do much in the Senate OR possibly fill the vacant seat McCain would leave behind.

And given that McCain has perhaps one of the highest likelihoods of suddenly vacating his seat, that leaves me rather worried.

Well, no, but with Sarah Palin, we're talking former runner-up to Miss Alaska, here. She's, to borrow words she likely speaks, "like, so totally" sexy.

Dudes, what's with the denigrating crap? Female politicians who are not super attractive are being made fun off because "they look like a man" and now the apparently more conventionally attractive ones are being made fun of as "bimbos"?

Because everyone who's ever been in a Miss Whatever contest is a bimbo who talks like a Valley Girl?

Way to go, guys, way to go.

He WILL lose a lot of the more misogynistic cons, though. And the convention seems to have solved the unity issue. I think and hope McCain shot himself in the foot by putting the bimbo in...

You know, it doesn't reflect well on you to talk ill of a VP candidate based on what is basically sexism.

Oh, come on. What're you going to do, go get yourself deleted again and then whine about how Palin cost you your 2? :rolleyes:

I'm REALLY not attacking posters now. Unless the bimbo is one of the posters, in which case I'd like to invite her for a date, because, y'know, she's hot.

You know, it doesn't reflect well on you to talk ill of a VP candidate based on what is basically sexism.

Oh, I got unfairly called sexist so many times during the Clinton debacle, I figured I might as well indulge. But be fair, I'd be finding other names for other Republicans.

Dudes, what's with the denigrating crap? Female politicians who are not super attractive are being made fun off because "they look like a man" and now the apparently more conventionally attractive ones are being made fun of as "bimbos"?

Because everyone who's ever been in a Miss Whatever contest is a bimbo who talks like a Valley Girl?

Way to go, guys, way to go.

Apparently since he does it to democrats as well it's okay :rolleyes:

Dudes, what's with the denigrating crap? Female politicians who are not super attractive are being made fun off because "they look like a man" and now the apparently more conventionally attractive ones are being made fun of as "bimbos"?

Because everyone who's ever been in a Miss Whatever contest is a bimbo who talks like a Valley Girl?

Way to go, guys, way to go.

What are you suggesting? That we stop assessing women's personalities based on their looks?

Dudes, what's with the denigrating crap? Female politicians who are not super attractive are being made fun off because "they look like a man" and now the apparently more conventionally attractive ones are being made fun of as "bimbos"?

Because everyone who's ever been in a Miss Whatever contest is a bimbo who talks like a Valley Girl?

Way to go, guys, way to go.

To be fair, it's only me, so "dude".

And she's the Republican VP, my hope is to frame the debate early on to make it that easier to attack her.

Oh, I got unfairly called sexy so many times during the Clinton debacle, I figured I might as well indulge. But be fair, I'd be finding other names for other Republicans.

Hardly. Calling Clinton a "hag" then is as stupid and childish as calling Palin a "bimbo" now. It serves no purpose other than to be divisive.

I wonder if I'm the only person to have the cynical thought that maybe they did this to get her OUT of the governorship of Alaska. If so, seems like they're risking an awful lot on McCain's health.

Was on Fox news at the time, he seemed to react to the news. As a risky out of the box choice, but a good choice for McCain, a surprise choice. He seemed very sincere, not putting on an act in favor of Obama.


What are you talking about? Palin is clearly an attempt to grab Hillery supporters from Obama, never mind the fact that this pick more or less blows McCains' arguments that Obama is too inexperienced out of the water, if the Obama campaign is smart they'll have an ad out before the end of the day slamming McCain on this.

To be fair, it's only me, so "dude".

And she's the Republican VP, my hope is to frame the debate early on to make it that easier to attack her.

It's totally not only you. I was only too lazy to quote like 70% of the thread up to that point...

I'm REALLY not attacking posters now. Unless the bimbo is one of the posters, in which case I'd like to invite her for a date, because, y'know, she's hot.

We'll see...

Now, to other business:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin#Matanuska_Maid_Dairy_closure

She just replaced the entire board because they didn't do what she wanted? That doesn't sound like the act of a good leader.. That sounds like the act of someone who wants to control everything, which is not the sort of person I want in my federal government, especially not in a position where she could become the President.

Apparently since he does it to democrats as well it's okay :rolleyes:

Nope, I was accused of doing it to democrats by Clinton backers. So I figured I might indulge in some now that Palin is the choice. But do relax, were she a male, I'd call "him" a pimp, gigolo or whatever. On it goes. They're enemies.

Hardly. Calling Clinton a "hag" then is as stupid and childish as calling Palin a "bimbo" now. It serves no purpose other than to be divisive.

Might I remind you that you are talking to Heikoku? He thinks divisiveness and rudeness are virtues.

Side note:

MAGNIFICENT! McCain just lost the ONE cudgel he had to hit Obama with, the age.

Though I'll admit I'd like to, shall we say, share a bed with McCain's VP nominee.

And there is the fact that she's female, but I don't think it'll turn women voters to McCain that much.

Inexperienced and not ready to lead has been McCain's mantra. Now he picks someone who has been governor for only two years (no national experience) and was a part time mayor of a small town. The only positive thing is that he picked a pro-life candidate. This will help him with his base. Picking a woman just seems like more pandering.

Oh, I got unfairly called sexy so many times during the Clinton debacle, I figured I might as well indulge. But be fair, I'd be finding other names for other Republicans.

I can't believe nobody used this one mistake to joke here. :D

(I'm not sexy BTW. Or sexist.) :p

Well, it's a bit more than that, wittig.

McCain married a former beauty queen. He then cheated on her after 14 years of marriage with a heiress 18 years his junior. Then, in an election where a female VP pick would undermine the Dem toehold, he picked another young beauty queen.

If this stood alone, it would be one thing. But the guy appears to only associate himself with young, beautiful women. She's not the best choice. There's no question there are stronger candidates. She was clearly chosen for having a vagina, which, frankly, isn't that big of a deal. In fact, it's about time that half of our population was represented in the highest offices. But among ALL the amazing women throughout the country that could have been chosen, for the most important positions in his life, his two wives, and now his VP, McCain has seemed to choose on completely shallow means.

Snip.

If this sinks McCain, good. Also, are you calling him a sugar daddy? Because I'd gladly take that up. :D

Hehe....

From a press release from the McCain camp:
"Governor Palin is a tough executive who has demonstrated during her time in office that she is ready to be president."

"Her experience in shaking up the status quo is exactly what is needed in Washington today."

Yeah, they just undermined the ONLY attack they've ever had against Obama. Apparently, experience isn't as important as what you do with that experience. Who knew?

Inexperienced and not ready to lead has been McCain's mantra. Now he picks someone who has been governor for only two years (no national experience) and was a part time mayor of a small town. The only positive thing is that he picked a pro-life candidate. This will help him with his base. Picking a woman just seems like more pandering.

Spot on, Liuz.

My first response was "oh right, a woman in a cynical attempt to get women to vote against their interests."

Hopefully the Hillions are not so gender oriented to be blinded...

Spot on, Liuz.

My first response was "oh right, a woman in a cynical attempt to get women to vote against their interests."

Hopefully the Hillions are not so gender oriented to be blinded...

I think they MIGHT before the convention. After it, however, I don't think so. The convention worked well...

Well, it's a bit more than that, wittig.

McCain married a former beauty queen. He then cheated on her after 14 years of marriage with a heiress 18 years his junior. Then, in an election where a female VP pick would undermine the Dem toehold, he picked another young beauty queen.

If this stood alone, it would be one thing. But the guy appears to only associate himself with young, beautiful women. She's not the best choice. There's no question there are stronger candidates. She was clearly chosen for having a vagina, which, frankly, isn't that big of a deal. In fact, it's about time that half of our population was represented in the highest offices. But among ALL the amazing women throughout the country that could have been chosen, for the most important positions in his life, his two wives, and now his VP, McCain has seemed to choose on completely shallow means.

If that IS why they picked her, I suspect they may be in for a bit of a shock. I don't buy the whole 'shallow' routine.

Well, it's a bit more than that, wittig.

McCain married a former beauty queen. He then cheated on her after 14 years of marriage with a heiress 18 years his junior. Then, in an election where a female VP pick would undermine the Dem toehold, he picked another young beauty queen.

If this stood alone, it would be one thing. But the guy appears to only associate himself with young, beautiful women. She's not the best choice. There's no question there are stronger candidates. She was clearly chosen for having a vagina, which, frankly, isn't that big of a deal. In fact, it's about time that half of our population was represented in the highest offices. But among ALL the amazing women throughout the country that could have been chosen, for the most important positions in his life, his two wives, and now his VP, McCain has seemed to choose on completely shallow means.
For one, this is a whole new argument compared to what was said upthread, which was what I was replying to.

For another - seriously? A 44-year-old who, among the many many MANY things she's done in her life, once came second place in a beauty pageant when she was 20 that gave her a university scholarship is "a young beauty queen", chosen "on completely shallow means"?

How do you know?

Her wikipedia entry is full of stuff she's done - why is nobody commenting on her eloping or her being married to an Inuit - holy shit they just changed her wiki! :eek2::eek2:

Half an hour ago it had TONS of shit on her private life (eats moose burgers, broke her fingers in commercial fishing job, husband, kids, one of them with Down Syndrome, NRA member, EVERYTHING - now it's all gone.


Edit: i clearly lost all interest in pursuing the jocabia thing there, sorry...

Hehe....

From a press release from the McCain camp:
"Governor Palin is a tough executive who has demonstrated during her time in office that she is ready to be president."

"Her experience in shaking up the status quo is exactly what is needed in Washington today."

Yeah, they just undermined the ONLY attack they've ever had against Obama. Apparently, experience isn't as important as what you do with that experience. Who knew?

You really have no idea who she is do you? All the stuff you keep yapping is essentially baseless. There has been a grassroots movement to have Palin picked for VP since even before McCain locked up his nomination. Sarah for VP websites were a dime a dozen for the last several months. Just because you don't know her doesn't make her a bad choice. She has been fighting for energy and ethics in Alaska government for years. More experience than Obama has.

Maybe, but within the forum rules they are.

And what does that have to do with intelligent debate?

There's no rule you have to have anything worthwhile to say, but don't you think it should be a goal anyway?

is there a way to get the previous versions of wiki pages?

For one, this is a whole new argument compared to what was said upthread, which was what I was replying to.

For another - seriously? A 44-year-old who, among the many many MANY things she's done in her life, once came second place in a beauty pageant when she was 20 that gave her a university scholarship is "a young beauty queen", chosen "on completely shallow means"?

How do you know?

Her wikipedia entry is full of stuff she's done - why is nobody commenting on her eloping or her being married to an Inuit - holy shit they just changed her wiki! :eek2::eek2:

Half an hour ago it had TONS of shit on her private life (eats moose burgers, broke her fingers in commercial fishing job, husband, kids, one of them with Down Syndrome, NRA member, EVERYTHING - now it's all gone.


Edit: i clearly lost all interest in pursuing the jocabia thing there, sorry...

Why change her wiki? :confused:

is there a way to get the previous versions of wiki pages?

Click on History at the top of the page.

Why change her wiki? :confused:

Because people hate.

Why change her wiki? :confused:
Probably because it really DID have a lot of personal stuff. Much more than usually on those pages.

I dunno.

I hate this. *shakes fist at internet and modern times and all that*

Because people hate.

I hate hate! :mad:

You really have no idea who she is do you? All the stuff you keep yapping is essentially baseless. There has been a grassroots movement to have Palin picked for VP since even be fores McCain locked up his nomination. Sarah for VP websites were a dime a dozen for the last several months. Just because you don't know her doesn't make her a bad choice. She has been fighting for energy and ethics in Alaska government for years. More experience than Obama has.

What part is baseless? Whether or not she's popular doesn't change anything.

Obama is popular. Obama is young. Obama is known for shaking things up. Obama is known for working across the aisle. Obama has a short but strong history. Obama has been fighting locally for years

So does Sarah. Which would be wonderful if the entire election thus far hadn't been about how all of those disqualify Obama for President. She doesn't have more experience that Obama. She has less. Particularly in the way experience has been defined in the McCain campaign.

Add in the "he's kind of celebrity" attacks when she's a former beauty queen and McCain just jumped into the hole he's been digging.

Now, do you have an actual argument or are you just going to make vague comments about "All the stuff I keep yapping"?

Pre announcement websites about Sarah for VP

http://sarahpalinforvp.blogspot.com/
http://ktracy.com/?p=1015
http://www.palinforvp.com/

You will find my name on the enlist Sarah Palin for VP petition (not linked to above)

I just hope he's not representative of Brazil as a whole. I'd hate to think of Brazil as a nation of Heikokus.

Might I remind you that you are talking to Heikoku? He thinks divisiveness and rudeness are virtues.

Guys, Heikoku's not on either VP list. Please can the personal comments.

Heikoku (*sigh*) ... "Bimbo". Trolling. Don't.

Click on History at the top of the page.
D'oh, thanks. Man, they've been busy. There is no way to get the whole page as it was half an hour or so ago, is there?

Pre announcement websites about Sarah for VP

http://sarahpalinforvp.blogspot.com/
http://ktracy.com/?p=1015
http://www.palinforvp.com/

You will find my name on the enlist Sarah Palin for VP petition (not linked to above)

Y'know, "ad populum" isn't really an argument.

For one, this is a whole new argument compared to what was said upthread, which was what I was replying to.

For another - seriously? A 44-year-old who, among the many many MANY things she's done in her life, once came second place in a beauty pageant when she was 20 that gave her a university scholarship is "a young beauty queen", chosen "on completely shallow means"?

How do you know?

Her wikipedia entry is full of stuff she's done - why is nobody commenting on her eloping or her being married to an Inuit - holy shit they just changed her wiki! :eek2::eek2:

Half an hour ago it had TONS of shit on her private life (eats moose burgers, broke her fingers in commercial fishing job, husband, kids, one of them with Down Syndrome, NRA member, EVERYTHING - now it's all gone.


Edit: i clearly lost all interest in pursuing the jocabia thing there, sorry...

I'm not saying she's not done anything. Seem my reply to Baldy. The point is that McCain has been hammering that unless you've got lots of experience on the national stage, you're not qualified.

Obama is young, an outsider, a celebrity, like Paris Hilton (an heiress), etc. Meanwhile, McCain is appearing Wedding Crashers, marrying beauty queens and much younger heiresses, and choosing a young, outsider, celebrity-type.

It's not any more true for her than when they said it about Obama, of course, but the issue is, she's not running for President. He is. And according to him, someone with her credentials is not qualified for the job.

More experience than Obama has.In running Alaska. Not that that's not an achievement, but Alaska isn't even mainland US, and she has no national experience to speak of.
Why change her wiki? :confused:There's these people in the world that receive joy from human suffering caused by their mischief. You are very fortunate to have never met anyone like that =P

What part is baseless? Whether or not she's popular doesn't change anything.
...
Now, do you have an actual argument or are you just going to make vague comments about "All the stuff I keep yapping"?


My argument was that you summarizing that he picked her because "she has a vagina and she's pretty" is baseless. And it still is.

If I was a woman in the US I'd be worried: McCain has come out explicitly in favour of Roe vs. Wade as recently as 1999, and it seems likely that his new found anti-choice zeal is motivated by a desire to get the support of the religious right rather than any genuine conviction. Palin, on the other hand, seems to be a genuine opponent of abortion rights. On other issues she doesn't seem to be as bad as most of the Republican alternatives, although that's not saying much.

Y'know, "ad populum" isn't really an argument.

Particularly when both the campaign and its supporters have been bitching about Obama's popularity not meaning anything.

Particularly when both the campaign and its supporters have been bitching about Obama's popularity not meaning anything.

See, I CAN be pleasant when I wanna. :p

D'oh, thanks. Man, they've been busy. There is no way to get the whole page as it was half an hour or so ago, is there?
Don't answer this, I'm too dumb to scroll down apparently. :rolleyes:

My argument was that you summarizing that he picked her because "she has a vagina and she's pretty" is baseless. And it still is.

Okay. He picked her because she has a vagina, she's pretty and online petitioners asked him to.

Because so far that sums up even the reasons YOU gave.

In running Alaska. Not that that's not an achievement, but Alaska isn't even mainland US, and she has no national experience to speak of.
There's these people in the world that receive joy from human suffering caused by their mischief. You are very fortunate to have never met anyone like that =P

Whereas I give joy from human suffering caused by my mischief. :)

Don't answer this, I'm too dumb to scroll down apparently. :rolleyes:

And I'm a conceited, unpleasant asshole! :D

I think SELF-flaming isn't flaming per se, is it? o_O

Y'know, "ad populum" isn't really an argument.

It wasn't meant as an argument, it was proof of the existence of the supporters AND it was additional information for those that were complaining that Wiki got sabotaged already

It wasn't meant as an argument, it was proof of the existence of the supporters AND it was additional information for those that were complaining that Wiki got sabotaged already

Great, she has supporters, most of which would vote for McCain if he put an eggplant on the ticket (not saying he didn't) and are just a tad happier that he put Palin in. What else?

Guys, Heikoku's not on either VP list.

Obama's biggest mistake.

I'm not saying she's not done anything.

[...]

Meanwhile, McCain is appearing Wedding Crashers, marrying beauty queens and much younger heiresses, and choosing a young, outsider, celebrity-type.

That's not what I meant by "she's done many other things besides being in a beauty contest". I didn't mean political experience, I meant random other things, in her life, that seem to be just as (un)important for who she is as a person or as a politician as being in a beauty contest 24 years ago.

Here's the now deleted "Family and personal background" section of her wiki:

Palin was born in Sandpoint, Idaho, the daughter of Charles and Sally (Sheeran) Heath.[4] Her family moved to Alaska when she was an infant.[5] Charles Heath was a science teacher and track coach.[5] The Heaths were avid outdoors enthusiasts; Sarah and her father would sometimes wake at 3 a.m. to hunt moose before school, and the family would regularly run 5k and 10k races.[5]

Palin was the point guard and captain for the Wasilla High School Warriors, in Wasilla, Alaska, when they won the Alaska small-school basketball championship in 1982; she earned the nickname "Sarah Barracuda" because of her intense play.[5] She played the championship game despite a stress fracture in her ankle, hitting a critical free throw in the last seconds.[5] Palin, who was also the head of the school Fellowship of Christian Athletes, would lead the team in prayer before games.[5]

In 1984, after winning the Miss Wasilla contest earlier that year, Palin finished second in the Miss Alaska beauty pageant which won her a scholarship to help pay her way through college.[5] In the Wasilla pageant, she played the flute and also won Miss Congeniality.

Palin holds a bachelor's degree in journalism from the University of Idaho where she also minored in politics.

Her husband, Todd, is a Native Yup'ik Eskimo.[5] Outside the fishing season, Todd works for BP at an oil field on the North Slope[6] and is a champion snowmobiler, winning the 2000-mile "Iron Dog" race four times.[5] The two eloped shortly after Palin graduated college; when they learned they needed witnesses for the civil ceremony, they recruited two residents from the old-age home down the street.[5] The Palin family lives in Wasilla, about 40 miles (64 km) north of Anchorage.[7]

She briefly worked as a sports reporter for local Anchorage television stations while also working as a commercial fisherman with her husband, Todd, her high school sweetheart.[5] One summer when she was working on Todd's fishing boat, the boat collided with a tender while she was holding onto the railing; Palin broke several fingers.[5]

On September 11, 2007, the Palins' eighteen-year-old son Track, eldest of five, joined the Army.[7] He now serves in an infantry brigade and will be deployed to Iraq in September 2008. She also has three daughters: Bristol, 17, Willow, 13, and Piper, 7.[8] On April 18, 2008, Palin gave birth to her second son, Trig Paxson Van Palin, who has Down syndrome.[9] She returned to the office three days after giving birth.[10] Palin refused to let the results of prenatal genetic testing change her decision to have the baby. "I'm looking at him right now, and I see perfection," Palin said. "Yeah, he has an extra chromosome. I keep thinking, in our world, what is normal and what is perfect?"[10]

Details of Palin's personal life have contributed to her political image. She hunts, eats moose hamburger, ice fishes, rides snowmobiles, and owns a float plane.[11][12] Palin holds a lifetime membership with the National Rifle Association. She admits that she used marijuana when it was legal in Alaska, but says that she did not like it.[13]

Out of all these things it's the beauty pageant that sticks? Because, what, John McCain's first wife had been in a beauty contest once, too?

Really now?

While her policy on gay marriage is less than desirable, at least the policies she's embraced regarding providing healthcare to gay employees partners is more enlightened than that of the Democrat governor of my state.

Also, as an Ohioan for virtually all of my life, I rather appreciate her anti-corruption viewpoints. My state is riddled with bullshit corruption in both parties, and I'm damn sick of it. The Republicans lost most of the executive in 2006 because of corruption, we're already down a Democrat Attorney General, and we've already got our second major Democrat scandal under way.

Great, she has supporters, most of which would vote for McCain if he put an eggplant on the ticket (not saying he didn't) and are just a tad happier that he put Palin in. What else?

Lets see, what else did I say?

*the lady is a working mom of five, has good ethics proven by her fighting corrupt politicians in her own party, proven energy policy in Alaska and canada natural gas pipeline treaties etc., and womens rights goes without saying. Looks like a very strong conservative candidate for VP to me.

*She's proven her willingness to fight even her own party, she overthrew a sitting Republican governor, and fired his lackies, she doesn't seem shy.

Additionally, the Huckabee and Romney supporters who felt disenfranchised by McCain will now feel more at home with the ticket since one of their own is on the ticket.

She's not enough to swing my vote, though. I think I'm going to sit tight where I am right now.

Lets see, what else did I say?

*the lady is a working mom of five, has good ethics proven by her fighting corrupt politicians in her own party, proven energy policy in Alaska and canada natural gas pipeline treaties etc., and womens rights goes without saying. Looks like a very strong conservative candidate for VP to me.

*She's proven her willingness to fight even her own party, she overthrew a sitting Republican governor, and fired his lackies, she doesn't seem shy.

Additionally, the Huckabee and Romney supporters who felt disenfranchised by McCain will now feel more at home with the ticket since one of their own is on the ticket.

Okay, you're REALLY favoring her on the basis of her ability to REPRODUCE? As for "women's rights", name one she wasn't against.

How is that? She has the same number of years in office and more governing experience than Obama.

wait, we're now counting being the part-time mayor of a village with a population of like 1000 or something as 'governing experience'? i'm pretty sure at that point we can start counting obama's time running harvard law review and illinois' project vote into the comparison.

pure desperation.

Laura Ingraham on Sarah Palin BEFORE the selection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBI6g0A6Wpo

Okay, you're REALLY favoring her on the basis of her ability to REPRODUCE? As for "women's rights", name one she wasn't against.


Sarah Palin is in favor of Working Women's rights. Do you really want to try and make an argument otherwise> lol

wait, we're now counting being the part-time mayor of a village with a population of like 1000 or something as 'governing experience'? i'm pretty sure at that point we can start counting obama's time running harvard law review and illinois' project vote into the comparison.

pure desperation.Obviously we have to go by how many waking hours each candidate has experienced to measure their experience. Though we could count dreams as well. Nightmares count extra because they're comparable to a crisis.

wait, we're now counting being the part-time mayor of a village with a population of like 1000 or something as 'governing experience'? i'm pretty sure at that point we can start counting obama's time running harvard law review and illinois' project vote into the comparison.

pure desperation.

You CAN point to Obama running the Harvard Law review, it is a big part of his resume.

Obviously we have to go by how many waking hours each candidate has experienced to measure their experience. Though we could count dreams as well. Nightmares count extra because they're comparable to a crisis.

I had a dream last night that a hamburger was eating ME! Do I get to be mayor of a small town? :D

Sarah Palin is in favor of Working Women's rights. Do you really want to try and make an argument otherwise> lol

Could you post her views on abortion, bitte?

Could you post her views on abortion, bitte?
How is that a response to his post?

You CAN point to Obama running the Harvard Law review, it is a big part of his resume.

yeah, but nobody pretends it is relevant 'governing experience'

Could you post her views on abortion, bitte?

Just like half the women population of the US, she's against abortion.

*the lady is a working mom of five,

Obama has kids himself, what's your point? That's she's fertile?

has good ethics proven by her fighting corrupt politicians in her own party,
She may fight corruption, but that doesn't mean she herself isn't corrupt also.

proven energy policy in Alaska and canada natural gas pipeline treaties etc.,
Using Fossil fuels isn't what I'd call an 'energy policy'

and womens rights goes without saying.

WRONG!

She's not pro-choice, she's pro-life; just because she has a vagina doesn't mean she's going to be pro-woman's rights; Phyllis Schlafly is a woman too, and she's about as anti-women as you can get

My argument was that you summarizing that he picked her because "she has a vagina and she's pretty" is baseless. And it still is.

It can't be for all the reasons you listed. Not unless McCain is a liar. According to McCain, all the reasons you listed disqualify you for President. That's been his entire argument against Obama.

Neither Obama nor Sarah were in the military.
Neither has much national experience.
Both are young.
Both are riding a wave of popularity.
Both are knowing for their outsider appeal.

So once you disqualify all of those as reasons, once you treat what McCain's camp has argued as the truth, she's only got two things left. She's got a vagina and a pretty face. According to McCain, nothing else qualifies her.

Add that to a McCain whose two marriages are to a beauty queen and an heiress, this is going to be big-time hard going for Mr. McCain.

He had to have known this. He's smart. He knows he undermined every one of her positives. The ONLY one he didn't already undermine, the ONLY one that isn't going to have all kinds of attacks smacking him back int he face, is that she's a woman. It's the only part of her credentials he hasn't already denied as qualifications. It's a clear effort to court the disenfranchised Clinton supporters. He could have stamped that on her head and it wouldn't be more obvious.

I had a dream last night that a hamburger was eating ME! Do I get to be mayor of a small town? :DNo, but you can chalk up some foreign relations experience for the Hamburger.

Just like half the women population of the US, she's against abortion.Care to back that statistic up?

You CAN point to Obama running the Harvard Law review, it is a big part of his resume.

Not according John McCain. That's the point. We're talking about why McCain picked her. According to McCain, local movements don't count. Obama doing some incredible community work is not relevant. Obama being a constitutional scholar is not relevant. Nothing is relevant but national experience because McCain's got it and Obama doesn't.

The problem is Sarah doesn't have it either and he just said she's ready to be President.

Just like half the women population of the US, she's against abortion.

The women's rights candidate that she is?

De wa, gouki gen yo...

Care to back that statistic up?

sounds like an ASchlafly statistic to me (read, made up in his/her head)

Care to back that statistic up?

Actually, he's understating. The vast majority of women in the world are against abortion. They'd prefer it's never necessary. I've only heard of a few pro-abortion people and they all appeared to be trolling.

However, the majority of women in the US are against the government telling them what to do with their bodies.

She may fight corruption, but that doesn't mean she herself isn't corrupt also.

To use a Dem example, the governor of New York had a history of fighting prostitution. How'd that turn out?

To use a Dem example, the governor of New York had a history of fighting prostitution. How'd that turn out?

*Raises hand* Ooo! I know that one!

To use a Dem example, the governor of New York had a history of fighting prostitution. How'd that turn out?Or a pop-culture one: Just look at what happened to Gotham's Harvey Dent.

Or a pop-culture one: Just look at what happened to Gotham's Harvey Dent.

Okay, just for the record, I think she's a bimbo, but I don't favor tossing acid on half her face and giving her a two sided coin with one side scraped on.

Besides, I find her more comparable to Harleen "Harley Quinn" Quinzell.

Okay, just for the record, I think she's a bimbo, but I don't favor tossing acid on half her face and giving her a two sided coin with one side scraped on.

Besides, I find her more comparable to Harleen "Harlequin" Quinzell.I was going more for the "now goes around killing people instead of enforcing the law" than the "looks half as good as he used to."

Okay, just for the record, I think she's a bimbo, but I don't favor tossing acid on half her face and giving her a two sided coin with one side scraped on.

Just for the record, when you use names like that, you make it impossible for anyone to read any of your arguments as having merit.

By the same token, if I started an argument with "That n*&#$% Obama" I'm pretty sure you wouldn't read the rest. You keep talking about your "moves", how about you put rational discourse down as the next one you develop?

Just for the record, when you use names like that, you make it impossible for anyone to read any of your arguments as having merit.

By the same token, if I started an argument with "That n*&#$% Obama" I'm pretty sure you wouldn't read the rest. You keep talking about your "moves", how about you put rational discourse down as the next one you develop?

Now, now, be fair. Do I not have a record for rational thinking before this circus of an election caused by Clinton and McCain sapped it?

I mean, you can call me somewhat deranged if you like, but derangement involves a process, it's not like I was like this before.

Also, I said "I think she's a" in this case and kept the joke going. There are so much better posts to answer to when pointing out my irrationality. Let me see if I can list a few.

I was going more for the "now goes around killing people instead of enforcing the law" than the "looks half as good as he used to."

Oh, sure, but I'd not miss on the joke.

Oh dear, it seems she's also in favour of getting Creationism into science classrooms (http://scienceblogs.com/afarensis/2006/10/27/intelligent_design_and_the_ala/).

Now, now, be fair. Do I not have a record for rational thinking before this circus of an election caused by Clinton and McCain sapped it?

I mean, you can call me somewhat deranged if you like, but derangement involves a process, it's not like I was like this before.

Also, I said "I think she's a" in this case and kept the joke going. There are so much better posts to answer to when pointing out my irrationality. Let me see if I can list a few.

So your defense is "yeah, I'm out of line, but I wasn't always" :confused:

So your defense is "yeah, I'm out of line, but I wasn't always" :confused:

Did I say it was a GOOD defense?

Spot on, Liuz.

My first response was "oh right, a woman in a cynical attempt to get women to vote against their interests."

Hopefully the Hillions are not so gender oriented to be blinded...

Hopefully is the best we can expect. All right, lunch break over (all 15 minutes of it). Time to go back to work.

Not to mention, Heikoku, how could you even really know she's a "bimbo?" Before she was announced as McCain's VP choice you had no idea who she was, and yet here you are trotting out your insults.

Seriously, grow up.

Not to mention, Heikoku, how could you even really know she's a "bimbo?" Before she was announced as McCain's VP choice you had no idea who she was, and yet here you are trotting out your insults.

Seriously, grow up.

Look. Republicans tried to frame the debate on Obama. I was trying to do the same. Never claimed I was SUCCEEDING. :p

Anyways, my arguments regarding her lack of support for reproductive rights stand. Shall we discuss them or whatever else instead of my dislike for the hot VP candidate?

Oh dear, it seems she's also in favour of getting Creationism into science classrooms (http://scienceblogs.com/afarensis/2006/10/27/intelligent_design_and_the_ala/).

Yet another reason not to want her in the second highest office.

She's piling them up very quickly. You have to give her credit for that.

Did I say it was a GOOD defense?

Course not. That'd be silly.

Remind me, why did you dismiss Joccy's recommendation? I think it'd help you out.

Look. Republicans tried to frame the debate on Obama. I was trying to do the same.

Because they're wonderful role models.

Yet another reason not to want her in the second highest office.

She's piling them up very quickly. You have to give her credit for that.

make no mistake, she's a fiscal and social hard core conservative. I'm not pretending otherwise

Because they're wonderful role models.

Touché.

Anyways, I AM trying to drive the debate towards the issues now...

Could you post her views on abortion, bitte?

She's against it personally and publicly. I still think she's a bad choice because the RNC and McCain message was all about experience and being ready to lead. God forbid McCain dies in a year, does this person have the experience to lead? Not by any account put forth by the RNC and McCain campaign. This is why I say she is a horrible choice. As a person she seems likable. She just negates every attack the RNC and McCain have had so far. Poor choice.

Course not. That'd be silly.

Remind me, why did you dismiss Joccy's recommendation? I think it'd help you out.

I didn't dismiss them, I just pointed out that I'm quite more pleasant usually. :p

Heikoku and I have had a little discussion about "bimbo". We now know his considered opinion of the McCain VP candidate. It will not be necessary to post it again (Heikoku) or discuss it further (everyone else).

She's against it personally and publicly. I still think she's a bad choice because the RNC and McCain message was all about experience and being ready to lead. God forbid McCain dies in a year, does this person have the experience to lead? Not by any account put forth by the RNC and McCain campaign. This is why I say she is a horrible choice. As a person she seems likable. She just negates every attack the RNC and McCain have had so far. Poor choice.

I would rather have her as President than McCain. I couldn't disagree with you more.

She's against it personally and publicly. I still think she's a bad choice because the RNC and McCain message was all about experience and being ready to lead. God forbid McCain dies in a year, does this person have the experience to lead? Not by any account put forth by the RNC and McCain campaign. This is why I say she is a horrible choice. As a person she seems likable. She just negates every attack the RNC and McCain have had so far. Poor choice.

Poor choice for them, great choice for the Dems.

I would rather have her as President than McCain. I couldn't disagree with you more.

But we're not talking about your opinion, friend. We're talking about the qualifications according to McCain's GOP. You can keep ignoring the argument if you like, but whether you or anyone else likes her is irrelevant to the fact that ever since it became obvious to most that Obama was going to win, the attack has been that you cannot be ready to lead with his level of experience. Now, according to both the GOP and McCain, you can and she is.

I wonder what they're attack will be now? "Uh, well, look at what I can do" *jumps up in the air with one leg crooked back*

She's against [abortion] personally and publicly.
I don't see that playing very well with the female vote that McCain-Palin seem to be trying to court.

I wonder what they're attack will be now? "Uh, well, look at what I can do" *jumps up in the air with one leg crooked back*

Given her looks, I'm all for that.

But we're not talking about your opinion, friend. We're talking about the qualifications according to McCain's GOP. You can keep ignoring the argument if you like, but whether you or anyone else likes her is irrelevant to the fact that ever since it became obvious to most that Obama was going to win, the attack has been that you cannot be ready to lead with his level of experience. Now, according to both the GOP and McCain, you can and she is.

I wonder what they're attack will be now? "Uh, well, look at what I can do" *jumps up in the air with one leg crooked back*

No, YOU are talking about McCain, I've been talking about Palin since this thread started.

welp

she has a vagina, she is an outsider, she is a pro-lifer who lives what she preaches, and she would not be the next dick cheney vp.

thats not bad.

she isnt the republican woman *I* would have picked--there are several other better all around candidates--but she is a breath of fresh air. i suppose she will be eaten alive by the campaign process but .... who wouldnt be?

No, YOU are talking about McCain, I've been talking about Palin since this thread started.

Still no numbers to back up your claim about the percentage of women in this country who are pro-life, huh?

Still no numbers to back up your claim about the percentage of women in this country who are pro-life, huh?

Why don't you just go look up any abortion poll by demographics. More women are against the status quo than men are. Republican or Democrat. Something like 60% of women believe abortions should be more restricted in the US than they are now.

make no mistake, she's a fiscal and social hard core conservative. I'm not pretending otherwise

Exactly why it would be a bad idea to have her as Vice President.

Exactly why it would be a bad idea to have her as Vice President.

Also why it would be a bad idea to have McCain as the President.

(On a side note, I regret calling her a bimbo earlier, there are two jokes it would be imprudent for me to make now. Ah well.) :p

Why don't you just go look up any abortion poll by demographics. More women are against the status quo than men are. Republican or Democrat. Something like 60% of women believe abortions should be more restricted in the US than they are now.

No, see, why don't you go look it up, to back up your statements.

See how that works? you-your? It's a good way of remembering the etiquette in this situation.

I find it interesting that the gallop poll shows an eight point lead for Obama in the first time since... April ish. :)

No, see, why don't you go look it up, to back up your statements.

See how that works? you-your? It's a good way of remembering the etiquette in this situation.


Nope, wrong topic thread. Prove me a liar if you like.

I find it interesting that the gallop poll shows an eight point lead for Obama in the first time since... April ish. :)

Linkie, I wanna see it. :D

Nope, wrong topic thread. Prove me a liar if you like.

I'm sorry, I don't understand...:confused:

Why don't you just go look up any abortion poll by demographics. More women are against the status quo than men are. Republican or Democrat.

Because generally when someone makes a claim, especially one as specious as the one you tried to make, they have the good sense to at least attempt to back their claim up with facts. Failing to do so tends to reflect negatively on the validity of the claim.

Besides, it doesn't matter that more women are against the status quo than men are. It matters what proportion of women are pro-life, and what are pro-choice. Hell it matters what proportion of people in general are pro-choice and what are pro-life.

So here's some numbers:
Seventy-seven percent of respondents said abortion should either be generally available, or available but with stricter limits than now. Just 22 percent said abortion should not be permitted.

ABORTION SHOULD BE:

Generally available

Now:39%
3/01:33%
5/00:37%
3/93:42%

Available, but with stricter limits than now

Now:38%
3/01:43%
5/00:39%
3/93:36%

Not permitted
Now:22%
3/01:23%
5/00:22%
3/93:40%

Those who believe abortion should remain available are evenly divided between those who think it should be generally available to those who want it, and those who think it should have more restrictions than it currently does.

And as far as gender goes:
Generally available

Men:40%
Women:37%

Available, but with stricter limits than now

Men:40%
Women:37%

Not permitted

Men:20%
Women:24%

So sure, there's an even split on the issue of the status quo. But your claim about the number of women in this country who are against abortion rights is empty and hollow.

Edit: Oops. Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/22/opinion/polls/main537570.shtml

No, YOU are talking about McCain, I've been talking about Palin since this thread started.

Which is about whether or not it was a good idea for MCCAIN to pick her.

Meanwhile, you claimed MY CLAIMS were baseless. In doing so, you very much made this about what I, and others you've said are wrong, are saying.

I know you're a fan of arguing the point no one is disputing, but how about you join the conversation this time. See, it doesn't matter how popular she is. That doesn't speak to why McCain picked her or what type of running mate she'll be. It doesn't matter that you like her, for the same reason.

The truth is, every one of the women I mentioned are more than I wrote about them. They aren't just mothers and beauty queens and heiresses. However, neither is Obama just a celebrity. Neither is Obama just a guy with little national experience.

This is the debate the way McCain framed it. I know it's a loser for conservatives, but you have to face the fact that Palin.

Oh dear, it seems she's also in favour of getting Creationism into science classrooms.

She seemed to have retracted from that, though.

"I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."

Oh, and your recent goal-post-change aside, this:

Just like half the women population of the US, she's against abortion.

was your original claim.

Because generally when someone makes a claim, especially one as specious as the one you tried to make, they have the good sense to at least attempt to back their claim up with facts. ... no need to, you proved it for me...

Lets see here, by your numbers, 37 + 24 = 61%. I win.

Nope, wrong topic thread. Prove me a liar if you like.

You don't have to be a liar to be wrong. However, this is debate. You don't get to make random assertions and leave it others to prove you wrong.

I claim you molest children. Prove me a liar if you like.

no need to, you proved it for me...

Lets see here, by your numbers, 37 + 24 = 61%. I win.

You realize that those that wish for abortion to be legal are pro-choice, right? It's just been established that pro-choice is majorly the majority.

Sarah is pro-life. Pro-lifers want abortion to be illegal. She's matches up with about 24% of women.

The majority of women DO NOT agree with her.

Oi, a child molester, we can't have that, can we?

no need to, you proved it for me...

Lets see here, by your numbers, 37 + 24 = 61%. I win.

Now, I know you're a fan of fuzzy math, given your tendency to side with the GOP, but that's just not how the numbers work out.

Let's see why, and since squinting may be the cause of your inability to understand this poll, I'll be nice and bold things for you:

Generally available
Women:37%

Available, but with stricter limits than now
Women:37%

Not permitted
Women:24%

Which is about whether or not it was a good idea for MCCAIN to pick her.

Meanwhile, you claimed MY CLAIMS were baseless. In doing so, you very much made this about what I, and others you've said are wrong, are saying.

I know you're a fan of arguing the point no one is disputing, but how about you join the conversation this time. See, it doesn't matter how popular she is. That doesn't speak to why McCain picked her or what type of running mate she'll be. It doesn't matter that you like her, for the same reason.

The truth is, every one of the women I mentioned are more than I wrote about them. They aren't just mothers and beauty queens and heiresses. However, neither is Obama just a celebrity. Neither is Obama just a guy with little national experience.

This is the debate the way McCain framed it. I know it's a loser for conservatives, but you have to face the fact that Palin.


You can dis McCain all you want, he barely passes muster with me. Palin was the right choice, and he managed to pull a correct choice out of what I thought was ever diminishing potential that he would pick her, but he did. I'm tickled pink that he dug through the bullshit and found the jewel that makes his ticket worth voting for.

...
Available, but with stricter limits than now
Women:37%

Not permitted
Women:24%

37 + 24 = 61 (I did it slower for you that time)

You can dis McCain all you want, he barely passes muster with me. Palin was the right choice, and he managed to pull a correct choice out of what I thought was ever diminishing potential that he would pick her, but he did. I'm tickled pink that he dug through the bullshit and found the jewel that makes his ticket worth voting for.

Bully for you. What does that have to do with your plethora of unsupported claims?

You've made claims about WHY he picked her. You refuse to back them up.

You claimed the majority of women agree with Palin on abortion. Then you just straight out moved those goal posts.

I'll tell you what... how about we pretend that this a debate forum and you pretend you're hear for rational discourse rather than just snarky comments and weird requests that other people support your claims for you?

37 + 24 = 61 (I did it slower for you that time)

...apparently math just isn't your thing.

What part about "available" is so hard to understand?

37 + 24 = 61 (I did it slower for you that time)

Okay, the opportunities to dispute each other's mathematical skills are wondrous and limitless, but the problem is whether 'Available, but with more limitations' is for or against abortion.

Technically, it sounds like the situation mightn't be a dichotomy, or not totally encapsulated by the poll.

You can dis McCain all you want, he barely passes muster with me. Palin was the right choice, and he managed to pull a correct choice out of what I thought was ever diminishing potential that he would pick her, but he did. I'm tickled pink that he dug through the bullshit and found the jewel that makes his ticket worth voting for.
what is so worth voting for?

she is utterly unqualified for the job.

its a puzzling choice when there are so many better qualified republicans that were passed over.

Heh. Imagine that. There's more than one position that people can take on a particularly broad given issue. :)

Like I've thought for a long time, politics ain't no dichotomy.

37 + 24 = 61 (I did it slower for you that time)

Are you being purposefully ignorant? Palin is pro-life. She wants abortions to be not permitted. She matches up with 24% of the female population, according to those statistics. Someone who wants abortions to be generally available is pro-choice. Someone who wants abortions to be available, but more strictly regulated, is also pro-choice. 37% pro-choice plus 37% pro-choice is 74% pro-choice. Versus 24% pro-life.

Your original claim was not
Something like 60% of women believe abortions should be more restricted in the US than they are now."

That was you moving the goalposts. Your original claim was
Just like half the women population of the US, she's against abortion.

And you were proven wrong. You were wrong.

Bully for you. What does that have to do with your plethora of unsupported claims?

Plethora of claims? You need a dictionary, you don't use words correctly, I certainly have not made a plethora of claims.

You've made claims about WHY he picked her. You refuse to back them up. You're lost here, YOU are the one that made claims about WHY McCain picked Palin, I pointed out that your claims were baseless.

You claimed the majority of women agree with Palin on abortion. Then you just straight out moved those goal posts.

since when is half, a mojority? Interesting math you have there, perhaps that dictionary will come in handy again.

I'll tell you what... how about we pretend that this a debate forum and you pretend you're hear for rational discourse rather than just snarky comments and weird requests that other people support your claims for you?

Right, you hearwhat you want to hear and I'm here debating the merits of Palin.

37 + 24 = 61 (I did it slower for you that time)

Except when you made the comment and were requested to support it, you didn't say anything about the status quo. You stated her position and said that the majority of women sided with her.

They don't. She wants to make abortion illegal. That's 24%.

Yeah, see 61% of people don't like George Bush. Therefore, the majority of people agree with Obama on the issue of Bush. I mean, why pretend like there is a long distance between a broad agreement and just being against the status quo. Nah, let's just make completely intellectually dishonest arguments. That'll be fun.

Are you being purposefully ignorant? Palin is pro-life. She wants abortions to be not permitted. She matches up with 24% of the female population, according to those statistics. Someone who wants abortions to be generally available is pro-choice. Someone who wants abortions to be available, but more strictly regulated, is also pro-choice. 37% pro-choice plus 37% pro-choice is 74% pro-choice. Versus 24% pro-life.

Your original claim was not


That was you moving the goalposts. Your original claim was


And you were proven wrong. You were wrong.

Thank you.

...

That was you moving the goalposts. Your original claim was

Two different statments, not moving the goalposts.

She seemed to have retracted from that, though.

"I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."

Heh, those of us who've been following the pantomime antics of the Discovery Institute and their cohorts have heard this rhetoric before. Also note what she says later in the interview (http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/story/8347904p-8243554c.html):

"It's OK to let kids know that there are theories out there," she said in the interview. "They gain information just by being in a discussion."

In other words, don't officially include it in the curriculum but point students towards Creationist materials, suggest equivalency between scientific theory and primitive mythology, and turn a blind eye to Creationist teachers who abuse their position to preach pseudo-science. This is exactly what was smacked down at the Kitzmiller trial in Dover.

Thank you.
so can we drop it now?

Except when you made the comment and were requested to support it, you didn't say anything about the status quo. You stated her position and said that the majority of women sided with her.

They don't. She wants to make abortion illegal. That's 24%.

Yeah, see 61% of people don't like George Bush. Therefore, the majority of people agree with Obama on the issue of Bush. I mean, why pretend like there is a long distance between a broad agreement and just being against the status quo. Nah, let's just make completely intellectually dishonest arguments. That'll be fun.

61% DO disagree with Bush, why would that statement be incorrect? (I'm assuming we are using the 61% number an example not an exact.)

so can we drop it now?

I will. The point is apparently obvious to everyone BUT Balderdash, and that's probably about as good as it's going to get.

Plethora of claims? You need a dictionary, you don't use words correctly, I certainly have not made a plethora of claims.

I realize you're going to pretend you aren't making claims. That's how you get around actually, you know, supporting them.


You're lost here, YOU are the one that made claims about WHY McCain picked Palin, I pointed out that your claims were baseless.

I did make claims. I supported those claims. You retorted by calling them baseless. That is also a claim. One you never supported or even explained.


since when is half, a mojority? Interesting math you have there, perhaps that dictionary will come in handy again.

I stand corrected. You're right. You said half. So instead of being off by 27%, you were only off by 26%. Nicely done.


Right, you hearwhat you want to hear and I'm here debating the merits of Palin.

You haven't started debating. Debating is more than just making claims. It requires you to support your statements and address those of others. You've done neither. What you mean to say is that you're tucking tail because with every post, your hole gets deeper. Personally, I would say that demonstrates a marked understanding of the support for your position.

Two different statments, not moving the goalposts.

Then your original statement was wrong.

Two different statments, not moving the goalposts.

In other words, one correct and one incorrect statement?

61% DO disagree with Bush, why would that statement be incorrect? (I'm assuming we are using the 61% number an example not an exact.)

I didn't say they disagree with Bush. I said they agree with Obama, which isn't true. See, there is this thing called a middle between those two statements.

In fact, you couldn't have demonstrated more clearly how utterly illogical your claim was.

Disagree with Bush =/= agree with Obama
Disagree with the status quo on abortion =/= Pro-life

In other words, one correct and one incorrect statement?


I would say, 1 proven to be correct, the other not proven.

I didn't say they disagree with Bush. I said they agree with Obama, which isn't true. See, there is this thing called a middle between those two statements.

In fact, you couldn't have demonstrated more clearly how utterly illogical your claim was.

Disagree with Bush =/= agree with Obama
Disagree with the status quo on abortion =/= Pro-life

So you are saying that MY statement was correct and YOUR statment was incorrect? Par for the course I would say.

Two different statments, not moving the goalposts.

The original claim was what you were asked to support and Deus Malum went to the trouble of looking up for you, even though it was your claim and your responsibility, assuming you actually care about rational debate.

Deus proved you wrong and you made the second statement, one that is irrelevant and no one was speaking to. Yes, 61% of women wish to see the status quo change. So?

I wish to see the status quo change, but I don't agree with Palin for a moment on abortion. So what does that have to do with anything? Are just going to keep saying different statements hoping one will be right eventually?

"It's morning. It's noon. It's afternoon. It's night. See, idiots, I was right. You can't prove me wrong."

While it does seem like Palin's relative inexperience, youth, and outsider status would undercut McCain's arguments against Obama, we're not talking about any sort of logical discussion here. We're talking about US National politics, which are about as far removed from any sort of reasoned argument as you can get. The mere fact that Sarah Palin is white, pretty, and Republican means that she's going to be judged by very different criteria than non-white, Democratic Obama.

Her political views mean that I wouldn't vote for her for dogcatcher, but McCain was never going to get my vote anyway. Palin will help the ticket for two reasons: 1) the God-Guns-and-Gays voters will feel included on the ticket, and 2) undecided white women will identify with her Donna-Reed-as-Governor image.

Very little of what Palin adds to or subtracts from the ticket will have anything to do with actual experience or qualifications.

I'd write more, but I get so angry at this kind of shallow identity politics that I have to go do some deep-breathing exercises now or I'll upset the baby. (Calm blue ocean, calm blue ocean, calm blue ocean.....)

So you are saying that MY statement was correct and YOUR statment was incorrect? Par for the course I would say.

Uh, you missed the point. I was pointing out that they aren't equal. You said they are. Your pretended my statement (which was intentionally wrong to prove a point) was correct and in doing so proved you thought they were equal. Seriously, do you really think this works?

There isn't a person here that doesn't have their palm on their head going, "Balderdash, when you're in a hole, stop digging!"

...
I wish to see the status quo change, but I don't agree with Palin for a moment on abortion. So what does that have to do with anything? Are just going to keep saying different statements hoping one will be right eventually?

"It's morning. It's noon. It's afternoon. It's night. See, idiots, I was right. You can't prove me wrong."

AH, I get it. Just like Obama saying "We will get out of Iraq" an now that they are, he isn't actually 'right' for having said so... he was just lucky and kept repeating it long enough that eventually he had to be correct sooner or later. Like even a broken clock is right twice a day, due to no merits of the clock itself...

Well, the fact the clock is still capable of indicating a time at all would be a merit, but I'm not sure how that fits the metaphor.

AH, I get it. Just like Obama saying "We will get out of Iraq" an now that they are, he isn't actually 'right' for having said so... he was just lucky and kept repeating it long enough that eventually he had to be correct sooner or later. Like even a broken clock is right twice a day, due to no merits of the clock itself...

Oh yes, let's do turn a thread about the merits of the McCain/Palin ticket into another round of poorly-reasoned "gotcha!" politics. Because that's both rare and entertaining.

You're more interesting than that, you know.

AH, I get it. Just like Obama saying "We will get out of Iraq" an now that they are, he isn't actually 'right' for having said so... he was just lucky and kept repeating it long enough that eventually he had to be correct sooner or later. Like even a broken clock is right twice a day, due to no merits of the clock itself...

Uh-huh. Actually, what Obama said was that we should have never gotten into Iraq. Then once we did, he said we should get out as soon as possible and focus on terrorism. He was right the entire time. He didn't have to wait.

Or did we catch Bin Laden and destroy Al Queda and I missed it?

I love how desperately you want to just keep changing the subject, though. Like I said, at least it demonstrates a recognition that your arguments are being crushed like McCain's dream to be President.

Well, the fact the clock is still capable of indicating a time at all would be a merit, but I'm not sure how that fits the metaphor.

;) Good stuff, Maynard.

I think she's a pretty good one...should help energize the conservative base...
http://www.lifenews.com/nat4021.html
http://www.americanconservativedaily.com/2007/11/poll-54-percent-of-americans-take-pro-life-position-on-abortion/
judging by these two polls, the majority of Americans are prolife, or prolife leaning...now if getting a nice prolife VP doesn't help McCain, nothing will. its what he needed, its what he got (though in some ways I would've liked Pawlenty more...) and its gonna make things interesting...ESPECIALLY in the VP debates...we can't be sexist now can we?

apparently she is up in the ranks of an organization called Feminists for life, though that part was removed from wikipedia...sooooo

another +, she's against Gay marriage, but also Against discrimination, which is kinda the position I am at right now.

Jocabia, actually I knew the thread discussion of Palins merits was over the minute you showed up with your conspiracy riddled fantasy that the women was only being picked because she's pretty and has a vigina... But now you've moved your convoluted paranoia schemes onto me and my motives instead of McCain and his. As expected.

edited to show who I was talking to

I think she's a pretty good one...should help energize the conservative base...
http://www.lifenews.com/nat4021.html
http://www.americanconservativedaily.com/2007/11/poll-54-percent-of-americans-take-pro-life-position-on-abortion/
judging by these two polls, the majority of Americans are prolife, or prolife leaning...now if getting a nice prolife VP doesn't help McCain, nothing will. its what he needed, its what he got (though in some ways I would've liked Pawlenty more...) and its gonna make things interesting...ESPECIALLY in the VP debates...we can't be sexist now can we?

apparently she is up in the ranks of an organization called Feminists for life, though that part was removed from wikipedia...sooooo

another +, she's against Gay marriage, but also Against discrimination, which is kinda the position I am at right now.

How about linking the actual poll. Neither of your "sources" do so.

;) Good stuff, Maynard.

? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maynard_James_Keenan)

limit.

http://www.americanconservativedaily.com/2007/11/poll-54-percent-of-americans-take-pro-life-position-on-abortion/

I'm rather suspicious about that source as it claims the research was done by CBS but only cites other pro-life groups talking about the results: there's no link to an original source.

EDIT: I'm loving the unintentionally hilarious Google ads on the side of: http://www.lifenews.com/nat4021.html

1 rule of a flat belly:
Cut down 9 lbs of stomach fat every 11 days by obeying this 1 rule.
FatLoss4Idiots.com

____

1 rule of a flat stomach:
I cut down 37 lbs of stomach fat in 5 months by obeying this 1 rule.
Wu-YiSource.com

I'm rather suspicious about that source as it claims the research was done by CBS but only cites other pro-life groups talking about the results: there's no link to an original source.

I'm wondering if the CBS poll is the same one I cited two pages back, and if the math involved is the same fuzzy math our friend Balderdash just used.

I just realized... Obama himself CANNOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, attack Palin. If he does, he's SCREWED.

Young black male attacking young white female. What does this look like in the American collective unconscious?

I just realized... Obama himself CANNOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, attack Palin. If he does, he's SCREWED.

Young black male attacking young white female. What does this look like in the American collective unconscious?

Obviously that's Biden's job now.

Jocabia, actually I knew the thread discussion of Palins merits was over the minute you showed up with your conspiracy riddled fantasy that the women was only being picked because she's pretty and has a vigina... But now you've moved your convoluted paranoia schemes onto me and my motives instead of McCain and his. As expected.

edited to show who I was talking to

You did an excellent job of attempting to attack me. Now, how about you address my "conspiracy-riddled fantasy"?

Who is involved in this conspiracy? I only said McCain and the GOP. That's not a conspiracy. It's their VP candidate. It's like saying that it's a conspiracy to say that Microsoft was involved in chosing the design of Windows.

McCain and the GOP made an argument about what qualifies one to be President. That argument undermines every reason you or anyone else has ever given for her as a candidate. The only reasons for her as a pick that are not undermined by said argument is that she's female. They said she is qualified to be President. So either they were wrong (you know my opinion on this) or the fact she is female makes a difference.

So, now, you ready to pretent like you're here for rational debate or you gonna keep squirming? If it's a fantasy, explain why. Address my points clearly and specifically, like we did your claim about half of women agreeing with Palin. Or you can keep personally attacking me and we can keep laughing at how widely your attacks miss.

Obviously that's Biden's job now.

And Biden will have to do it. IF I'm correct, Obama attacking her will be BAD.

the more I learn about Sara Palin, the more I like her.

I'm wondering if the CBS poll is the same one I cited two pages back, and if the math involved is the same fuzzy math our friend Balderdash just used.

The same poll was cited as having been conducted by CBS News and by a pro-life group, so I'm wondering if someone didn't get confused here. Easily solved, though, our friend can return and show us the actual poll and its methodology.

I'm wondering if the CBS poll is the same one I cited two pages back, and if the math involved is the same fuzzy math our friend Balderdash just used.

I don't think so: the poll you linked to was conducted in 2003, the new citations are much more recent and are placed in late-2007 and mid-2008.

it could be...I just quick checked the google stuff...if you have any reliable polls feel free to show him...but I think having a pro-life person will help...

She's anti-choice if I recall correctly, so hopefully that will drive a number of women away from her.

Which is funny because she claims to be a "Feminist". That Hypocricy will hurt her.

Found it -

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

CBS News Poll. Oct. 12-16, 2007. N=1,143 registered voters nationwide.

.
.

"What is your personal feeling about abortion? (1) It should be permitted in all cases. (2) It should be permitted, but subject to greater restrictions than it is now. (3) It should be permitted only in cases such as rape, incest and to save the woman's life. OR, (4) It should only be permitted to save the woman's life."

Scroll down and it matches the numbers offered. Here's the thing though. A more current survey from the same source, disputes those numbers by more than a lot. And several other surveys do as well. The majority of Americans believe that Roe v. Wade should not be overturned. That's not a Palin win.

I don't think so: the poll you linked to was conducted in 2003, the new citations are much more recent and are placed in late-2007 and mid-2008.

Ah, ok. Thanks.

The same poll was cited as having been conducted by CBS News and by a pro-life group, so I'm wondering if someone didn't get confused here. Easily solved, though, our friend can return and show us the actual poll and its methodology.

The two links describe two different polls, although the discrepencies between their results are so large as to cast doubt on their validity:

October 2007 poll from American Conservative Daily (http://www.americanconservativedaily.com/2007/11/poll-54-percent-of-americans-take-pro-life-position-on-abortion/):
The survey found that 16 percent of the public only favors allowing abortions “only to save woman’s life” and another 34 percent think abortions should only be allowed in the very rare cases of rape, incest or to save the mother’s life.

Another four percent of Americans want all abortions to be made illegal.

June 2008 poll from Lifesite (http://www.lifenews.com/nat4021.html):
"A new poll reveals a majority of Americans take a pro-life position on abortion and that pro-life Americans outnumber pro-abortion Americans by a 16 percent margin. The survey also found the issue of abortion gives presidential candidate John McCain an eight point advantage over his pro-abortion rival Barack Obama.

Conducted by the Polling Company for National Right to Life, the June 2008 poll finds 54 percent of Americans take one of three pro-life positions on abortion and just 38 percent take a pro-abortion position.

Looking at a breakdown of the pro-life side of the equation, 17 percent of those surveyed said they oppose abortions and want them illegal for any reason.

Another 12 percent said abortions should only be allowed to save the life of the mother, and 27 percent said abortions should only be allowed in the very rare cases to save the life of the mother or when the woman is a victim of rape or incest"

So between October 2007 and June 2008 the percentage of Americans opposed to abortion in any circumstance has swelled from 4% to 17%? I find that extremely hard to believe.

EDIT: As Vetalia points out below, the discrepency is only there because I misread the article: 17% relates to the pro-lifers.

Which is funny because she claims to be a "Feminist". That Hypocricy will hurt her.

Yeah, but being personally anti-abortion isn't the same as being politically opposed to the issue. Plenty of people oppose abortion on personal grounds but recognize that outlawing it is not feasible or desirable.

Not to mention she's raising a kid with Down's Syndrome, a child whom she chose to raise rather than abort...any attacks regarding her opposition to abortion are going to be in very risky territory just like any attacks on her "feminist" credentials. Palin was a very bold choice and in many aspects the best choce; had McCain chosen another old white man for his running mate, he would lose guaranteed. Now, that's nowhere near as certain, especially given the additional strength a young woman candidate gives the McCain ticket.

Interestingly, there is a Fox News poll on the above link that gives the following numbers.

"Please tell me if you think abortion should be legal or illegal in each of the following situations . . . ."

Legal Illegal Unsure
% % %
"If the pregnancy was the result of rape or incest"
70 21 9

"If the pregnancy puts the mother's life at risk"
73 15 12

"If the pregnancy puts the mother's mental health at risk"
56 28 16

"If the baby has a fatal birth defect"
53 30 18

"If the pregnancy is unwanted"
39 50 11


In other words, if it affects your mental health, like say, having to have a child you don't want, love or have the ability to care fore, then the majority says it should be legal. Of course, that WOULD essentially be the status quo. The majority even said it should be legal for birth defects (something I admit I'm surprised by).

So between October 2007 and June 2008 the percentage of Americans opposed to abortion in any circumstance has swelled from 4% to 17%? I find that extremely hard to believe.

It looks like the first poll surveys the public in general while the second one only polls those people who are specifically pro-life. Even so, only 17% of pro-life people support a full outlawing of abortion, which is very low no matter which way you skew it.

Yeah, but being personally anti-abortion isn't the same as being politically opposed to the issue. Plenty of people oppose abortion on personal grounds but recognize that outlawing it is not feasible or desirable.

Not to mention she's raising a kid with Down's Syndrome, a child whom she chose to raise rather than abort...any attacks regarding her opposition to abortion are going to be in very risky territory just like any attacks on her "feminist" credentials. Palin was a very bold choice and in many aspects the best choce; had McCain chosen another old white man for his running mate, he would lose guaranteed. Now, that's nowhere near as certain, especially given the additional strength a young woman candidate gives the McCain ticket.

Attacks on her feminist credentials will be made by other prominent females. And effectively.

And she wants abortion outlawed. She doesn't fall in the personally against it category.

It looks like the first poll surveys the public in general while the second one only polls those people who are specifically pro-life. Even so, only 17% of pro-life people support a full outlawing of abortion, which is very low no matter which way you skew it.

Gargh! You're right, my bad.

I don't support a full outlawing of abortion, anyone who does is a total retard. obviously there are some cases...where not aborting kills both people the main thing I think is where unwanted pregnancy the majority says outlawed then...the problem is mental health is such a subjective thing so what did that question mean by mental health?

For the chuckle factor, I was hoping for either Ted Nugent, or Hector Gomez, transsexuall immigrant rights campaigner. I don't think there is a Hector Gomez, except maybe on Fox or WorldNet daily........

Attacks on her feminist credentials will be made by other prominent females. And effectively.

I think the problem is, though, that a lot of the women that will make the strongest attacks are likely to be pretty far left. Many Americans do have a negative opinion of the left-wing feminist movement and they have to be careful that Obama doesn't risk associating himself too much with them. Regardless of whether or not that's a valid viewpoint, that's the way a lot of people will see it.

Ultimately, you're going to need solidly centrist and left-of-center women attacking her to really make any leeway against this choice. Even so, though, attacking the VP doesn't do much; Cheney's baggage appears to have had no effect on the 2000 or 2004 elections.

And she wants abortion outlawed. She doesn't fall in the personally against it category.

Do you have evidence of her doing anything as governor to achieve that aim? I'd like to learn more about her position on the issue of abortion; even so, as VP it doesn't really matter because she has little political power. With a Democratic congress and a population generally in favor of abortion to some extent or another, it doesn't really matter what she wants because is simply won't happen.

I think the problem is, though, that a lot of the women that will make the strongest attacks are likely to be pretty far left. Many Americans do have a negative opinion of the left-wing feminist movement and they have to be careful that Obama doesn't risk associating himself too much with them. Regardless of whether or not that's a valid viewpoint, that's the way a lot of people will see it.

Ultimately, you're going to need solidly centrist and left-of-center women attacking her to really make any leeway against this choice. Even so, though, attacking the VP doesn't do much; Cheney's baggage appears to have had no effect on the 2000 or 2004 elections.



Do you have evidence of her doing anything as governor to achieve that aim? I'd like to learn more about her position on the issue of abortion; even so, as VP it doesn't really matter because she has little political power. With a Democratic congress and a population generally in favor of abortion to some extent or another, it doesn't really matter what she wants because is simply won't happen.

Well, I'd agree that she has little effect while she is VP. But McCain is 72 and has cancer.

Regardless, the majority of the population favors trials. How did that turn out? The majority of the population favors privacy. How did that turn out? I don't ignore people having dangerous views just because I HOPE they won't be able to excercise them. She's be one step from the most powerful job in the land and we already have a problematic SCOTUS.

I'll say, honestly, I'd actually rather Obama was being chosen for SCOTUS than President. I think he could do a ton of good there and SCOTUS has the most ability to reign in the violations of the bill of rights, which, for me, is almost the most major issue of the election.

I concluded my unexpected business successfully a while back.

lol, where to begin. I still dont know who the Obama supporter on Fox news is, or his position in the Obama campaign or democratic party is.

He seemed very sincere that McCain's Vice Pick was a good choice for John McCain. Not putting on an act as an Obama Supporter.

At least it energizes and unites the Republican party base.

I hear Governor Sarah Palin has an 80 % plus approval rating in her state of Alaska.

If Barack Obama had picked Hillary we would never have had a chance in Heck.

As your Thread Host OP. 27voters, 32 plus posters, 220 plus posts. Including our Moderator Ardchoille. I hid the thread right out of the ball park, lol.

Very proud of that, thanks you all.

Have to go for now. Still have not slept since Wednesday night. Will br up late tonight as well on or off line, crazy glued to the computer & TV.

Check out my sig? At least I have a Republican sense of humor. And I dont mean just politics.

But McCain is 72 and has cancer.

McCain doesn't HAVE cancer. Or you're using the notion of remission?

Check out my sig? At least I have a Republican sense of humor. And I dont mean just politics.

I'm assuming you mean that you are a Republican, and have a sense of humor? Because I can't think how "I have a [insert political party] sense of humor" makes sense as a boast, as no political party is widely acknowledged for its sense of humor. Some are unintentionally funny, but that's not the same thing.

But then, I don't understand why your sig is particularly funny. Perhaps you could explain?

McCain doesn't HAVE cancer. Or you're using the notion of remission?

He has had several melanomas removed. His form of skin cancer is rare and quite deadly. Now, I'm not suggesting he's necessarily going to die, but it would be irresponsible to not consider the likelihood of his VP ascending to the Presidency.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_nyt_and_melanoma/

That's a pretty good analysis of it. Even when he's speaking positively, he talks about a mortality of 9%. Add to that, 72 years old and going through one of the most stressful jobs that doesn't involve being actively tortured and you're looking at a good reason to be assessing his VP as President.

Ultimately, you're going to need solidly centrist... women attacking her to really make any leeway against this choice.
A job for Hillary?


Well, I'd agree that she has little effect while she is VP. But McCain is 72 and has cancer.
I didn't know that.

EDIT: I seez above.

This was the first thing that came to my mind when I saw her.

http://livingalaska.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/sarah_palin2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/bsg/mm.jpg

Hair's different, though.

He has had several melanomas removed.

I know he HAD them, I was the first to ponder that not even his skin could take him, but he doesn't have it right now...

...as far as we know.

Those bashing Sarah Palin in favor of Obama are just showing their ignorance and hypocrisy. Frankly, I doubt there is one politician in the world any of us can agree with 100%. They all have viewpoints we agree or disagree with to a greater or lesser extent.

I've read Palin's history, I've considered her experience. Frankly, I find her a much more palatable and capable candidate than a junior senator who has, through his history, used underhanded techniques and outright lies to progress his campaigns forward, and a 30-year Washington insider who brings no change to the broken Washington politics at all. While I'm not a huge McCain fan, I find I can, with a whole heart, support Sarah Palin 100%. And so I will be voting for McCain this year.

For those who say the VP pick has had no affect, I'm afraid you're wrong there - the Democratic VP pick probably had no affect. Biden is a 30-year Washington insider. He doesn't reflect change, he reflects Obama's pressing need have someone experienced on his ticket. And that's not just because of his short time as a senator - it's because he has spent the entire time he's been a politician avoiding the issues. He sidesteps better than a square-dancer, and flip-flops more than a trout on the deck of a fishing boat.

Sarah Palin, on the other hand, has proven she's willing to go toe-to-toe with existing party politics and do what's right for the people she's representing. I was willing to vote for Hillary because, even though I disagreed with some of her positions, she was delightfully centrist and was willing to make changes that would benefit the country. Now I will support Sarah Palin, even though I disagree with some of her positions, she's delightfully centrist and is willing to make changes to benefit the country. Since I wasn't willing to support either presidential candidate, I might as well make my pick based on their VP choice.

A job for Hillary?


I suspect so.

I suspect so.

"Get her, girl, get her!" :D

For those who say the VP pick has had no affect, I'm afraid you're wrong there - the Democratic VP pick probably had no affect. Biden is a 30-year Washington insider. He doesn't reflect change, he reflects Obama's pressing need have someone experienced on his ticket.

Just like Palin reflect McCain's pressing need to have someone who's body isn't half decomposed already

Just like Palin reflect McCain's pressing need to have someone who's body isn't half decomposed already

And his LIKING (not his need, his LIKING) to be surrounded by sexy women that could be his daughters.

I don't like abortion, It's an unfair fight. You're talking about a baby versus a doctor. Even if the doctor is 80 years old, the baby cannot win. Maybe if we gave all babies guns before an abortion...

Just like Palin reflect McCain's pressing need to have someone who's body isn't half decomposed already

Given the very large body of candidates for the job, most of them younger and more attractive than McCain, somehow I doubt he chose her simply because she was young and attractive. Almost any of his VP picks would have filled that bill.

I'm assuming you mean that you are a Republican, and have a sense of humor? Because I can't think how "I have a [insert political party] sense of humor" makes sense as a boast, as no political party is widely acknowledged for its sense of humor. Some are unintentionally funny, but that's not the same thing.


Rhinoceros Party. http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/God_of_the_Bloody_Tongue/emotes/emot-colbert.gif

Yeah, but being personally anti-abortion isn't the same as being politically opposed to the issue.

She's politically opposed to the issue.

the more I learn about Sara Palin, the more I like her.
me too.

i hope she is around for a long time.

not that it influences my vote in any way.

I don't support a full outlawing of abortion, anyone who does is a total retard. obviously there are some cases...where not aborting kills both people the main thing I think is where unwanted pregnancy the majority says outlawed then...the problem is mental health is such a subjective thing so what did that question mean by mental health?
in the past it has meant being certified as suicidal by a doctor.

there is always a doctor who will certify that if you are "in the know" and there is no humane way to outlaw abortion for someone who is truly suicidal.

She's politically opposed to the issue.

Without a doubt. Lest there be further speculation, here's some data:

In 2002, when she was running for lieutenant governor, Palin sent an e-mail to the anti-abortion Alaska Right to Life Board saying she was as "pro-life as any candidate can be" and has "adamantly supported our cause since I first understood, as a child, the atrocity of abortion."
link (http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/governor06/story/8049298p-7942233c.html)

Palin quote: "I'm pro-life. I'll do all I can to see every baby is created with a future and potential. The legislature should do all it can to protect human life. "link (http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/sarah_palin_vp/2008/08/29/126139.html)

And she is a member of Feminists for Life. link
(http://feministsforlife.org/news/ffl-member-sarah-palin-vp.htm)

Pro-Life groups appear to credit Palin with a "strong pro-life record," saying that she has promoted a "pro-life" agenda whenever given the opportunity. link (http://www.lifenews.com/state3460.html)