NationStates Jolt Archive

too bad I'm a vegetarian for enviromental reasons...not that I've ever seen a chicken protest me taking its eggs



thats odd you see I remember something about large scale farming, cities and peanut butter cupcakes!

not to mention how I fail to see nature accommodate 6,602,224,175+ humans in any sort of food web
Again, it looks like you link the bio/meat industry directly to meat eating itself. That's not true, there is ecological/biological meat, or wild meat (wich you can, sometimes, even hunt yourself!). But yea, we're with a lot of people, that still doesn't mean we're not in a foodweb. We're still a part of earth's ecology, vitaly linked to it. As long as we remain on this planet, we will be a part of it. Our species has a certain role in that, wich is naturally a 2nd grade, omnivoric consumer. What's so bad about that?

Again, it looks like you link the bio/meat industry directly to meat eating itself.

its crazy how much those two get linked isn't it?

That's not true, there is ecological/biological meat, or wild meat

are you saying we live in some sort of mechanical world and wild animals are in fact robots!:eek:

even hunt yourself!

I can also hunt berries however I smart enough to know that I cannot ensure if the food is fit for consumption (and think of all the crap wild animals eat)

But yea, we're with a lot of people, that still doesn't mean we're not in a foodweb.

yeah it does hence all the ecological chaos

Our species has a certain role in that, wich is naturally a 2nd grade, omnivoric consumer. What's so bad about that?

are species role is to live within Africa using crude tools and spooky fire, I think its safe to say we broke that rule when we started developing hunting tactics and all that jazz

I'm a proud omnivore, though I eat way too much meat.

I'm unsure whether I should defend the benefits of meat eating or the positive environmental effects it has (rather: can have), from grazing (good for biodiversity & birds, see eg. this (http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/may99/plant0599.htm)) to vastly expanded array of food producing plant material from plain hay - which is completely incapable of supporting humans but is primary food for ruminants - to lichen (ok, it's not a plant but you got the point). That's not even mentioning the fact that in vast areas of Earth only part of the year and/or part of the land is good for growing plant material fit for human consumption while animals have no problem in eating stored nutrient poor fodder or grazing material that won't sustain a human.

But I probably won't bother as I'd be slammed with environmentalist studies which almost invariably show that current meat production spends that and that amount more of <insert limited supply, like water, here> than cultivating nutrient rich soy beans across the world or that eating meat is invariably unhealthy; let alone the suffering of poor animals! And in a way, I don't disagree - We westerners eat too much meat. Meat should be a 2-4 times a week delicacy depending on where and when you live, for example: An eskimo probably would be better off eating primarily meat and few imported goods (note: this does not mean that the price of meat should rise BUT that the culture of meat eating should change).

I personally would also be completely incapable of giving up dairy products :)

its crazy how much those two get linked isn't it?
Yes it is, since you can eat meat and not support the bio-industry thus not supporting the enviromental problems.
are you saying we live in some sort of mechanical world and wild animals are in fact robots!:eek:
Hmm I should've phrased that better, put the word "raised" after ecological/biological ;) Think that's clear enough.
I can also hunt berries however I smart enough to know that I cannot ensure if the food is fit for consumption (and think of all the crap wild animals eat)
Yup, that's what we also do, fact is that humans have more in there diet then berries and nuts.
yeah it does hence all the ecological chaos[quote]
I know, I even wonder if we cán live with so many people toghether on this planet.
[quote]are species role is to live within Africa using crude tools and spooky fire, I think its safe to say we broke that rule when we started developing hunting tactics and all that jazz
That's not true. Our place in ecology is 2nd grade, omnivoric consuming. Another part is the manupilation of land, and we're not the only species who do that, beavers as well for example or ants who herd aphids. Hunting tactics and fire have nothing to do with our ecological role. Every hunting animal uses tactics. Fact is also, that meat eating by itself is a vital part from life on earth. It's another factor who keeps things in balance. Take for example Holland, we have a problem with swines and deer populations here because we eradicated the predators who usually make sure those populations are balanced. The dumb thing is, is that we don't view ourselfs anymore as 1 of those natural predators even though we are.

Don't worry, we already do.
Anyway, why bother diverging from our healthy natural diet? Really, we have that diet for a reason. It's how our planet works, it's our place in the food web, it's our ecological role. I do not understand what anyone would have against that, is it some kind of superiority feeling? I really don't understand.

You'll find we don't. "Natural" is not a synonym for "healthy" or "advisable".
It's natural for us to eat as much sugar as we can get hold of, but I wouldn't call it neither healthy nor advisable.

Yes it is, since you can eat meat and not support the bio-industry thus not supporting the enviromental problems.

I'd hazard at no myself

Yup, that's what we also do, fact is that humans have more in there diet then berries and nuts.

no we don't, its stupid and dangerous to just go around eating anything you find in the woods (especially if you happen to live near civilization)

That's not true. Our place in ecology is 2nd grade, omnivoric consuming. Another part is the manupilation of land, and we're not the only species who do that, beavers as well for example or ants who herd aphids.

I can point out soil degradation with also water pollution and say otherwise

The dumb thing is, is that we don't view ourselfs anymore as 1 of those natural predators even though we are.

IIRC western man hasn't hunted for his food in thousands of years-ish

I'd hazard at no myself
? If you eat home-grown meat, biologically raised meat or wild meat you either gathered yourself or another expert hunter, you're not supporting the problems caused by the bio-industry because you don't buy products from the bio-industry. I don't understand what you want to say.
no we don't, its stupid and dangerous to just go around eating anything you find in the woods (especially if you happen to live near civilization)
O really? Tell me why, since there are still lots of people who do that. Don't you think those people have knowledge of the enviroment they live in, given upon father and son, mother and daughter, for countless of generations.
I can point out soil degradation with also water pollution and say otherwise
Again, that's A the bio-industry and B a result of overconsumption. I'm not talking about that. And I don't see what that has to do with the fact that we're not the only species who manipulate the land and there enviroment.
IIRC western man hasn't hunted for his food in thousands of years-ish
Some people still do. But still, that would not matter. We are 1 of the predators, and because we apperantly think we don't have so much to do with nature anymore, boar and deer populations in Holland are spiraling out of controll. Fact is, that predation is 1 of the systems wich help keep the balance in nature.

I don't understand the problem some people have with our ecological role, so we are 2nd grade omnivoric hunter/gatherers who also manipulate the land. I don't understand the fuss about the fact that meat is part of our natural diet, I really don't.

O really? Tell me why, since there are still lots of people who do that. Don't you think those people have knowledge of the enviroment they live in, given upon father and son, mother and daughter, for countless of generations.

Are those the people who got worms from infected meat, then?


Some people still do. But still, that would not matter. We are 1 of the predators, and because we apperantly think we don't have so much to do with nature anymore, boar and deer populations in Holland are spiraling out of controll. Fact is, that predation is 1 of the systems wich help keep the balance in nature.

I personally think that's a lot more to do with the fact that we've driven all the other predators out of Western Europe, or when was the last time you saw a wolf or bear in the wild?


I don't understand the problem some people have with our ecological role, so we are 2nd grade omnivoric hunter/gatherers who also manipulate the land. I don't understand the fuss about the fact that meat is part of our natural diet, I really don't.

I'm not debatting the fact that it's natural. I'm debatting your assumption that it's healthy and beneficial, or even necessary.

Are those the people who got worms from infected meat, then?
Maybe.
I personally think that's a lot more to do with the fact that we've driven all the other predators out of Western Europe, or when was the last time you saw a wolf or bear in the wild?
That's also a factor indeed. Thousands of years ago, we were far less in numbers, toghether with the bear and the wolf we kept the deer and boar population in balance. Now we're the only who are left.
I'm not debatting the fact that it's natural. I'm debatting your assumption that it's healthy and beneficial, or even necessary.
Meat isn't part of our natural diet for no reason. It gets unhealthy when we overconsume, something wich is a big problem with meat consumption. Meat is only a small part of our diet, and even then mammal meat is just a part from the meat part (since we also got insects, birds and fish). We eat craploads of meat, way too much. Remember that our current diet isn't our natural as well. It lacks a lot, we don't eat insects anymore (they are very healthy, no fat and lots of protein), nuts and fruits also need a bigger role in our diet and mammal meat makes up a way to large portion of our current diet.

Are those the people who got worms from infected meat, then?

you can get certain types of worms from apples, you dont see my calling for the removal of apples from our diets do you ?

I personally think that's a lot more to do with the fact that we've driven all the other predators out of Western Europe, or when was the last time you saw a wolf or bear in the wild?

have been hiking in europe but i have seen wolves,bears, bob cats and mountain lions in Texas.


I'm not debatting the fact that it's natural. I'm debatting your assumption that it's healthy and beneficial, or even necessary.

animal products are the only means you can absorb vitamin B-12 with out resorting artificial chemically made products. Also the healthiest diet is the one that is most easily sustainable. In the event of social collapse those dietary supplements will not be available. Animals products from my uncles farm with pigs, chicken, and cattle will be available(at least to me).
the only way to be a Vegan naturally is to eat unwashed vegetables from a field fertilized with manure(basically eating fecal matter).

I could see bennefits to being a vegetarian, but only if it was made compulsory by the state.

With a growth in food, we could both provide nourishment and fuel with more corn/wheat. (If we're prepared to let the cows die. Which we would have to)


Bassicaly inorder for vegetarinsm to work we'd have to change the ethics behind it. It wouldn't be about protecting animals, pacifism, or more humane treatment of our kill.


But rejecting the bovine and other useless creatures that contribute nothing to the productivity of the nation. At most we might still have some cattle such as horses and such to ride and otherwise do labor so we can lower gas emissions and conserve on energy.


My intent was never to save the enviorment or the animals, I'm "liberal" for the sole purpose of gathering all the energy for myself and building a better and stronger nasa program so we can acheive battlestar galactica.


We're going to need it.

Miso, Soy sauce, and tempeh are not sources of B12 ( they have other B vitamins) but not B-12.
they were all thought to have B-12 until about 5 years ago, so your doctor may being using out dated information.

Also on supplements avoid spirulina it was thought to have B-12 until rather recently. instead it has a compound similar to B-12 that will black absorption of real B-12 and make B-12 deficiency occur faster.

naturally occurring B-12 comes form bacteria yes but not from bacteria used in fermentation of miso, soy sauce, or Tempeh. The only natural source of the bacteria is in the lower intestines of animals, humans have have them as well but they are too far down the digestive tract for us to absorb.
which is why a traditional vegan diet in India, Iran, and elsewhere calls for eating unwashed vegetables from fields fertilized with manure.

the reason consensus of dietitians only changed recently is that it takes several years for B-12 deficiency to show up in a adult once they stop intake of B12 normally 3 to 20 years depending on body chemistry.

I think we are in furious agreement but not understanding each other. My doctor has put me on a B12 supplement because I wasn't getting enough from diet.

According to the nutritional information on the tempeh I use, there is .2μg B12per 100 grams. The capsules I take have 500μg.

That's a big difference. In fact, a scary difference.

you can get certain types of worms from apples, you dont see my calling for the removal of apples from our diets do you ?

Neither am I advocating the removal of meat or animal products. I'm debatting their necessity in our diet.


have been hiking in europe but i have seen wolves,bears, bob cats and mountain lions in Texas.

You wouldn't see them in Western Europe, they're extinct here. The biggest predators around these parts are foxes now.


animal products are the only means you can absorb vitamin B-12 with out resorting artificial chemically made products. Also the healthiest diet is the one that is most easily sustainable. In the event of social collapse those dietary supplements will not be available. Animals products from my uncles farm with pigs, chicken, and cattle will be available(at least to me).
the only way to be a Vegan naturally is to eat unwashed vegetables from a field fertilized with manure(basically eating fecal matter).

But as there is no social collapse (although you do sound like you're expecting and hoping for it every day now), why should you refrain from artificial products if you feel it's the right thing for you to do?