NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been looking at this for quite some time and have found myself sufficiently swayed by the environmental and economic views to actually have a shift to a vegetarian diet (madness I know but I seem a tad water obsessed these days)

but I was wondering how you achieve this when products such as pork pies exist and also how many of NSG have caught this fad? just post anything you feel is on topic for the next page at least...


poll to come (and also as seen a lack of any real argument to continue to eat meat but I could be swayed I guess)

The other carnivorous and omnivorous animals are laughing at the idiocy of human "vegetarianism".

My sister-in-law is a vegetarian (because she feels sorry for the animals), so, anytime I eat with my brother's family, I always order the biggest steak/burger/pork bbq plate on the menu, and then tell her that I'm just trying to balance the universe.

I've been some form of vegetarian for my entire life--never eaten red meat or poultry, spent a few years as a vegan, and seafood comes and goes in my diet--so the "how" question is a bit of a mystery to me. Seems easy enough. :)

If you want a GREAT vegetarian recipe for a "nut loaf," TG me. My best friend is constantly begging me to make it. Last night she missed out and it was gone... so she just pouted and sniffed the pan for aroma and scraps. (She's vegetarian, too, but my meat-eating friends are equally in awe of the wonderful tastiness of nuts baked like meatloaf. ;)

If you want to go the packaged meat analogue route, the SINGLE BEST vegetarian hot dogs are "Super Links" in the Loma Linda line of Worthington food products. Freaks people out to see fake meat in a can, but I swear they're one of the best products you'll ever taste. Same goes for their "Redi-Burger" and the loose meat crumbles (both canned), though not so for some of their other products.

I'm fine with vegetarianism as a lifestyle choice. I only have a problem with it as an ethical choice if it pertains to a believe in animal rights. (There is a really good article on the subject at www.communalism.org It's called "Ambiguities of Animal Rights" and is written by Peter Staudenmaier.)

EDIT: I must say I'm quite disappointed that there was no choice for us omnivores who are being oppressed by you dirty hippies! /sarcasm

But seriously, why no "I eat both vegetables and meats" option? Seems like an option too obvious to overlook.

The other carnivorous and omnivorous animals are laughing at the idiocy of human "vegetarianism".

and like a female chimpanzee you will sell any morales you have for a piece of meat ;)

My sister-in-law is a vegetarian (because she feels sorry for the animals), so, anytime I eat with my brother's family, I always order the biggest steak/burger/pork bbq plate on the menu, and then tell her that I'm just trying to balance the universe.

ah, but you would also need to get impotence twice as quickly ...

I've been some form of vegetarian for my entire life--never eaten red meat or poultry, spent a few years as a vegan, and seafood comes and goes in my diet--so the "how" question is a bit of a mystery to me. Seems easy enough. :)

I can eat fish?! :eek:

but I swear they're one of the best products you'll ever taste.

I can vouch for this, vegetarian substitutes are far superior to whatever goes into a hot dog

also you will have a telegram in about 5 minuets

ah, but you would also need to get impotence twice as quickly ...

??

I'm not a vegetarian but I like some vegetarian dishes. People at some places get confused when I've normally ordered a veggie dish and I suddenly order a meaty dish.

To me being a veggitarian is a choice, I converted about a year ago when I noticed the consumtion of meat made my stomache hurt alot, and progressively made me ill. I'm not a nazi about it though, although I beleive in ethical treatment of animals, I will never support PETA's millitant approach to the cause, nor will I ever force someone to be a veggitairan, or not consume meat in my presence.

What I can tell you is that ever since I became a veggitarian, I've had ton's of energy, I rarely get sick, and I'm hardly ever tired. My focus has increased, my strength and endurance are better, and I lost 15 pounds. For me it was the right choic because I've never felt better or stronger or smarter. The only problem I've really had is with people telling me that my choice is stupid and refusing to understand why, and even having the adacity to telll me that I'm lying about the incredible nausea and stomach pain I experiance after eating meat. But some people are just closed minded like that, you can't help it.

Im an omnivore. Humans evolved to be them for a reason. That being said, I eat little meat. Meat tends to end up in dishes I cook (such as pasta) as an add to flavor, not the main ingredient. In fact, the only times I usually eat a big slab of meat is if its fish.


Vegetarians, I have no problem with, unless their ass hats. Its funny, usually vegetarians are very liberal, and their also usually the ones who always say we should respect other peoples lifestyle choices. Both of which I agree with.


However, the irony is the most....devout?....vegetarians are usually out there telling me how horrible a person I am because I eat meat. Fucking hypocrits.

I eat more veggies than meat, but I'm basically an omnivore. I used to be vegan. I don't really bitch too much when people restrict their diets, what people eat or do not eat is none of your business.

However, the irony is the most....devout?....vegetarians are usually out there telling me how horrible a person I am because I eat meat. Fucking hypocrits.
Of course, animals have more rights than you. God, you're a dumb ass. :rolleyes:

I only have a problem with it as an ethical choice if it pertains to a believe in animal rights.

I thought that was more down to limiting animal suffering?

But seriously, why no "I eat both vegetables and meats" option? Seems like an option too obvious to overlook.

the poll is multi-choice for a reason...

??

http://www.goveg.com/impotence.asp

I'm not a vegetarian but I like some vegetarian dishes. People at some places get confused when I've normally ordered a veggie dish and I suddenly order a meaty dish.

whats worse is I tried tofu the other day and suddenly it was announced that I was becoming a vegetarian (yes I'm boring and predictable:p)

http://www.goveg.com/impotence.asp

I'm pretty sure that my 5 mile run per day will keep me potent for years to come. In any case, I'm sure a low-fat omnivorous diet would work just as well.

I do not manage it.

That said - I do limit my meat eating to healthy levels. Eating large slabs of meat everyday is pretty bad for humans and the environment alike (not even taking into account the poor lil tortured animals in their mini-concentrationcamps).

I'm a vegetarian. However I think humans are naturally omnivores, I just find the animal industry to be excessively cruel. I hold nothing against people who eat meat though.

I'm a vegetarian. However I think humans are naturally omnivores, I just find the animal industry to be excessively cruel. I hold nothing against people who eat meat though.

This is why I eat as much free range and organic foods as possible.


Costs a bundle. But its worth it IMO.

What I can tell you is that ever since I became a veggitarian, I've had ton's of energy, I rarely get sick, and I'm hardly ever tired. My focus has increased, my strength and endurance are better, and I lost 15 pounds. For me it was the right choice because I've never felt better or stronger or smarter.

hopefully I can start getting out of bed in the morning then:p

The only problem I've really had is with people telling me that my choice is stupid and refusing to understand why, and even having the adacity to telll me that I'm lying about the incredible nausea and stomach pain I experiance after eating meat. But some people are just closed minded like that, you can't help it.

I've already encountered this (having at least one vegetarian friend) and worst of all is the asshats who find it "funny" to slip meat into vegetarians diets

Im an omnivore. Humans evolved to be them for a reason.

so we could scavenge the brains out of putrid carcasses in the hot African grasslands :)

However, the irony is the most....devout?....vegetarians are usually out there telling me how horrible a person I am because I eat meat. Fucking hypocrits.

I can't say I have ever met anyone like this?

Of course, animals have more rights than you. God, you're a dumb ass. :rolleyes:

that would make sense if only cattle had the right to eat people;)

My diet consists almost exclusively of meat, dairy and eggs. The only vegetal stuff I eat is bread, patetoes and spices.:p

My diet consists almost exclusively of meat, dairy and eggs. The only vegetal stuff I eat is bread, patetoes and spices.:p

not even carrots?!

how about cheese and onion flavour crisps ;)

Falafel is cool. So are chickpeas. On the other hand, both are best served with some kind of lamb-y main dish.

I'm an omnivore, but some of my friends are vegetarians and I somewhat know one vegan.
Most of them are pretty cool about it, but that's largely because if they were assholes about it, I would choose not to remain friends with them.

But there is one group of vegetarians/vegans at my Uni that are real assholes and accost passersby trying to tell them that vegetarianism is the One True Diet and that vegetarians are so morally superior to us evil meat-eaters.

I can't stand them.

Also. If you're a vegetarian and we go out to eat somewhere, you go ahead and order your vegetarian meal. I'll order my meal, one that may include meat. I'll eat mine and you eat yours. No need to get worked up about it or insist that I don't eat meat either. That's just rude.

I can eat fish?! :eek:You can eat whatever you want, of course. Vegetarianism is, in the first place, a principle rather than a rule: I consider friends who very rarely eat meat, even if they don't adhere to an absolute avoidance, vegetarian--and that's how they describe themselves. The one thing I can't stand is the holier-than-thou vegetarian/vegan who thinks that ethical choices are black-and-white.

More to the point, many of the ethical, economic, and environmental arguments against meat-eating don't apply to fishing--provided, at least, you take some care to purchase fish from suppliers that avoid overfishing. The problems with industrialized meat production? Largely irrelevant to fishing: fish get to live their happy, fishy lives... until the day a predator catches them. That's nature. I have no problem participating in that. It's the animals crammed into tiny, dark cells and pumped full of proteins and antibiotics that I oppose. Not to mention the environmental devastation of beef production.

I've been looking at this for quite some time and have found myself sufficiently swayed by the environmental and economic views to actually have a shift to a vegetarian diet (madness I know but I seem a tad water obsessed these days)

but I was wondering how you achieve this when products such as pork pies exist and also how many of NSG have caught this fad? just post anything you feel is on topic for the next page at least...


poll to come (and also as seen a lack of any real argument to continue to eat meat but I could be swayed I guess)

First of all, you should realize that vegetarianism is not pro-environment. In order to grow crops, you destroy wild environments. This causes the destruction of biomass and the extinction of species. Well maintained grazing land is actually better for the environment than cropland.

I worked in admin on a farm for over 20 years, and when I've taken trips into the field I've seen harvesters tear up birds nests, small animal burrows and snake nests. I've seen dead animals decapitated by plows and harvesters.
That's the touchy-feely part.

Growing enough crops to feed everyone involves fossil fuels (the amount of gas, diesel and oil required to run a farm causes as much pollution as driving cars in the city), chemical pesticides (causing the extinction of numerous insect beneficial insect species as well as the near extinction of birds and small mammals), chemical fertilizers (which, get into water run-off and eventually end up in the ocean causing algal bloom and fish kill).

It's disingenuous to use the environment as a reason for being a vegetarian.

Personal health is actually a better reason. But, again, this comes with a caveat. We are geared to be omnivores - we should eat a little bit of everything and not too much of any one thing. I grant that the Western World does eat too much meat, and we can, if we cook properly, get almost everything we need in a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet. But it's easier if we eat some meat - not every day, and certainly not the pounds of it we (Western nations) do eat.

First of all, you should realize that vegetarianism is not pro-environment. In order to grow crops, you destroy wild environments. This causes the destruction of biomass and the extinction of species. Well maintained grazing land is actually better for the environment than cropland.

Half correct. While the bio-friendlyness is often grossly exaggerated, a vegetarian diet on the whole is better for the environment than a meaty one. The destruction of biospheres for cropgrowing (e.g. soja) is indeed a major drawback.

And ironically the more animal-friendly methods of farming are (per pound of meat produced) more polluting than the animal-unfriendly bioindustry.

But it's easier if we eat some meat - not every day, and certainly not the pounds of it we (Western nations) do eat.

In full agreement.

but I was wondering how you achieve this when products such as pork pies exist and also how many of NSG have caught this fad?

Are you still wearing feathered fedoras? Because you are extremely out of date.

But there is one group of vegetarians/vegans at my Uni that are real assholes and accost passersby trying to tell them that vegetarianism is the One True Diet and that vegetarians are so morally superior to us evil meat-eaters.

I can't stand them.

Also. If you're a vegetarian and we go out to eat somewhere, you go ahead and order your vegetarian meal. I'll order my meal, one that may include meat. I'll eat mine and you eat yours. No need to get worked up about it or insist that I don't eat meat either. That's just rude.

This is why I always carry around a bag of Beef Jerky. Well, that, and it's a great hunger-fighting snack. Especially Hickoryyy...Mmmmmmmm.

Where was I? Oh yeah, Beef Jerky. Anyways, whenever I am accosted by the Church of the One True Diet of Vegetarianism, I simply ask them to hold on for a moment, pull out my Beef Jerky, and then munch on it as I ask politely "So, what is this about vegetarianism?" That last word normally gets interrupted by me chewing on some good old Beef Jerky.

For extra-fun, combine this with some Bible quoting about being made in God's image, and that as God made the wolf to eat the deer, so did God make Man to eat many animals.

I'm not a vegie and never will be, but I have to admit that we in the west (if we really can survive easily without meat) do not have a particularly good argument justifying the consumption of meat any more.

I eat meat. That's an understatement. I love, no, savour meat. Steak, chicken, mutton, pork, sausage, turkey, venison, fish, anything. Except for veal, which is where I [reluctantly] draw the line. And vegetarians that I know are disgusted by the fact that I have no qualms about devouring a plate of bacon. I asked where they get their necessary animal fats and proteins from, and they said "You can take pills for that."

One can talk all they want about humans not having the "proper dental structure" to eat meat, but evolution did not, by any means, shape man to eat pills as opposed to food.

Whether our 'natural' diet or not, meat is good, and I will eat it until all of the diseases that I'm told I'll get from it kill me.

I eat anything that tastes nice I guess. I have no problem with Vegetarians except for when they try to convert you, or sometimes force there life style on there children or something.

we in the west (if we really can survive easily without meat) do not have a particularly good argument justifying the consumption of meat any more.
Bacon... Sandwiches.

I was a vegetarian for about 5 years but then I started eating fish.

The main reasons was red meat, pork and chicken started giving me stomach aches so I cut them out entirely. I dunno why I cut fish out. I guess because it wasn't a big part of my diet in the first place but eventually I craved it so hard I had to have it again and so my favorite days are sushi days.

I don't like the way they treat animals on industrial farms but don't mind the free range way of raising meat.

I don't like it at all when vegetarians try to push vegetarianism on others.

While I have seen very very little of it, I hate begin associated with them. By far the biggest dicks when it comes to judging other people on their diet are omnivores though. Just read any thread on vegetarianism and it will be proven. Just read the first few posts in this thread and it becomes clear.

By far the biggest dicks when it comes to judging other people on their diet are omnivores though. Just read any thread on vegetarianism and it will be proven. Just read the first few posts in this thread and it becomes clear.

Nope, not seeing it.

I eat meat. And lots of it. Steak, burgers, chicken breasts, wings, thighs, roasts, turkey legs, pork chops, ribs etc.

Meat is absolutely delicious.

Nope, not seeing it.

let me quote the FIRST TWO replies then

The other carnivorous and omnivorous animals are laughing at the idiocy of human "vegetarianism".

My sister-in-law is a vegetarian (because she feels sorry for the animals), so, anytime I eat with my brother's family, I always order the biggest steak/burger/pork bbq plate on the menu, and then tell her that I'm just trying to balance the universe.

let me quote the FIRST TWO replies then

Hey! That's not me being a dick. That's me picking on her because it's fun!

I've been looking at this for quite some time and have found myself sufficiently swayed by the environmental and economic views to actually have a shift to a vegetarian diet (madness I know but I seem a tad water obsessed these days)

but I was wondering how you achieve this when products such as pork pies exist and also how many of NSG have caught this fad? just post anything you feel is on topic for the next page at least...


poll to come (and also as seen a lack of any real argument to continue to eat meat but I could be swayed I guess)

I don't buy into the animal cruelty arguments as attracting me to vegetarianism but the environmental arguments I find fairly compelling.
I'm not a vegetarian but I certainly wouldn't mind buying more vegetarian foods. It gives more breadth to the diet too.

M-mm yum yum yum, yes indeed.

Hey! That's not me being a dick. That's me picking on her because it's fun!

if you say so

let me quote the FIRST TWO replies then

Learn to get a sense of humor. The first one seems like a joke. The second one is just playful ribbing of family members. The second one you have no right to be upset over.

poll to come (and also as seen a lack of any real argument to continue to eat meat but I could be swayed I guess)

Your poll lacks a vegan option.

Your poll lacks a vegan option.

Because vegans arent people.

I understand Vegetarian as an extension to the idea of the Boycott. Not eating meat because you disagree with the procedure of modern farming is an entirely justified stance to take. I also understand Vegetarianism as a default state to have if you don't like the taste of meat. However, I do not understand the principle behind not eating it because you don't want to produce of an animal origin. All forms of self sustainence come at the expense of other living things - that's what consuming is all about. I see no reason why I should feel more guilty about eating an animal (assuming it has been properly treated and not wastefully used) than I should eating a bowl of cornflakes whose production has no doubt resulted in huge pollution and refuse and highly underpaid field workers.

Learn to get a sense of humor. The first one seems like a joke. The second one is just playful ribbing of family members. The second one you have no right to be upset over.


I have every right to feel however I want. Having put up with these exact type of 'jokes' for many years (get some new material) and participating in discussions on NSG for many years I can tell you that if you look at any thread regarding vegetarianism, the count of 'jokes' (and just plain rudeness) being made at the expense of vegetarians far outnumber anything you will see from vegetarians. Yes there are vegetarian assholes who should keep their traps shut. I noted them in my first post in this thread, but to sit there and tell me vegetarians aren't being attacked more often than meat eaters are shows me that you aren't payign attention. I'm glad you can have a nice giggle when someone talks shit about a vegetarian. Great for you and you 'sense of humor'.


There are funny vegetarian jokes -

If God doesn't want us to eat animals then why did he make them out of meat? (one of my favorites)


and unfunny obnoxious jokes -

For every animal you don't eat, I'm going to eat three. (possibly the most obnoxious and overused type of anti-vegetarian 'humor')

There are funny vegetarian jokes -

If God doesn't want us to eat animals then why did he make them out of meat? (one of my favorites)

How about this one?

http://progressiveboink.com/jon/images/calvinhobbes/jon5.GIF

Why is my name in a poll? :confused:

Why is my name in a poll? :confused:

Because we were waiting for you to come around and find it.

How's it going Chandler? Remember me?

Why is my name in a poll? :confused:

Ignore it and it'll eventually not be repeated. Disconcerting, though, isn't it?

Cute Gallo

Historically veganism would have caused a number of health issues.

However now a days the issues caused are correctable with supplements.
you do however see several people going Vegan incorrectly and devolving health problems.

Myself I have a diet mostly composed of meat, as it seems to be what my bodyworks well with. I experimented with a Vegetarian diet found myself having a lack of energy losing muscle mass, and having a really nasty gas problem.

The theory I have read is those more geared for meat have a higher stomach acid content and a shorter intestine.
Where as people who's bodies favor vegetarian lifestyle have a longer intestine and a lower stomach acid content.

the only 2 groups I have issue with are those that are militant about vegan or vegetarianism
or those who go vegan and do not know how to do it correctly and put themselves or their children's health endanger.

I'm vegan and I don't use anything from animals (meat, milk, eggs, leather, silk, honey and etc)... I think animals have the same rights as humans... To kill and eat an animal is cruel and harmful for humans...

Because we were waiting for you to come around and find it.

How's it going Chandler? Remember me?

Yes, I kind of remember you. From Gabbly, I think...I'm fine except for a headache that's still here after more than two months and a sunburn. How are you?

Ignore it and it'll eventually not be repeated. Disconcerting, though, isn't it?

Yes, a little bit...

Yes, I kind of remember you. From Gabbly, I think...I'm fine except for a headache that's still here after more than two months and a sunburn. How are you?

Fine fine. You should get a massage and see if that helps your headache. A nice theraputic massage would do you a world of good.

Also, have a hamburger.

/jab

Fine fine. You should get a massage and see if that helps your headache. A nice theraputic massage would do you a world of good.

Also, have a hamburger.

/jab

Hmm, maybe.

They actually did give us hamburgers for lunch at the beach. I ate a few bites of it but mostly had the pasta.

I'm not a vegetarian but I like some vegetarian dishes. People at some places get confused when I've normally ordered a veggie dish and I suddenly order a meaty dish.

Same with me. At home, I normally prepare meat dishes because it's easier to cook a tasty meat dish than a tasty vegetable one (for me). But I enjoy interestingly cooked vegetables, and they're also often cheaper.

I am a Bread-a-tarian. I don't like any meat other then poultry.

I've been looking at this for quite some time and have found myself sufficiently swayed by the environmental and economic views to actually have a shift to a vegetarian diet (madness I know but I seem a tad water obsessed these days)

but I was wondering how you achieve this when products such as pork pies exist and also how many of NSG have caught this fad? just post anything you feel is on topic for the next page at least...


poll to come (and also as seen a lack of any real argument to continue to eat meat but I could be swayed I guess)

To be honest with you, I think the best arguments in favor of vegetarianism are the dietary and financial ones. Although I myself am not completely a vegetarian, I do try to limit the amount of meat I eat to a safe savory casual minimum sufficient to balance my health (biologically and financially) and enjoyment of my food. As for the moral argument, I find it stupid and ridiculous - there is no problem with eating an animal outside of your species, that is very natural and the only reason it is wrong to eat humans is that it discourages respect and trust, something you won't have with animals anyways. And if you are against meat-eating for crop-consumption reasons, I would just like to remind you that even with all the meat-farming in the world there would still be sufficient to feed everyone if it weren't for THOSE BLASTED ETHANOL SUBSIDIES.


(Not that it would matter, because just because the food is there doesn't mean it will actually get to the people who need it. It's not a matter of consumption either - it's a matter of politics in it's dirtiest form.)

My primary source of protein is MEAT baby. I have canine teeth for a reason and I love to work them on a nice thick steak, chunk of grilled chicken, fish fillet, shrimp, ham..

omg I'm hungry.. haven't had dinner yet.

I do not now nor will I ever understand the reason why people choose vegetarianism, but hey, it's their life and it doesn't hurt me any so more power to them.

More meat for me. :D

My primary source of protein is MEAT baby. I have canine teeth for a reason and I love to work them on a nice thick steak, chunk of grilled chicken, fish fillet, shrimp, ham..

omg I'm hungry.. haven't had dinner yet.

I do not now nor will I ever understand the reason why people choose vegetarianism, but hey, it's their life and it doesn't hurt me any so more power to them.

More meat for me. :D

If you think about it, human vegetarians are probably the only true "free range" animals available to non-hunters. Not to suggest anything.

The way people eat meat is very unhealthy. For some it's practically all they eat. We are omnivorous creatures, and that is how we should eat to stay healthy. If you switch completely to veggitarianism, you are denying yourself certain nutrients from meat that are hard to get elsewhere. Although, that choice isn't as unhealthy as the one in which people eat practically only meat. You have to have a balance. The optimal approach is having more veggitables than meat. Nobody needs so much meat. Any extra you eat just comes back out. But you need more veggitables than you do meat. Although, I'm probably not going to follow my own advice. I like the taste of chicken, and cow, and pig, etc.

The way people eat meat is very unhealthy. For some it's practically all they eat. We are omnivorous creatures, and that is how we should eat to stay healthy. If you switch completely to veggitarianism, you are denying yourself certain nutrients from meat that are hard to get elsewhere. Although, that choice isn't as unhealthy as the one in which people eat practically only meat. You have to have a balance. The optimal approach is having more veggitables than meat. Nobody needs so much meat. Any extra you eat just comes back out. But you need more veggitables than you do meat. Although, I'm probably not going to follow my own advice. I like the taste of chicken, and cow, and pig, etc.

studies are starting to find there are actually people who need 60% of their calories from meat for optimal health. seems there is a difference in length of the intestine (vegetable fiber is harder to break down and requires a longer intestine) and acidity of the stomach(meat requires higher stomach acid content). So to say there is anyone healthy diet for all humans appears incorrect.

I've been looking at this for quite some time and have found myself sufficiently swayed by the environmental and economic views to actually have a shift to a vegetarian diet (madness I know but I seem a tad water obsessed these days)

but I was wondering how you achieve this when products such as pork pies exist and also how many of NSG have caught this fad? just post anything you feel is on topic for the next page at least...


poll to come (and also as seen a lack of any real argument to continue to eat meat but I could be swayed I guess)

The problem with being a vegetarian is that it restricts you from one of the best sources of a number of vitamins and minerals, as well as protein, thus requiring you to look at alternate sources.

And unfortunately, that's only been possible in recent times due to the ease of growing certain vegetables and fruits in the appropriate climates and then shipping them all over the place. If the ability to cheaply ship such food is lost, you can bet that a vegetarian diet will become unsustainable.

Personally, I prefer to simply go organic in everything I eat(though that's kind of hard at the moment when I have no control over food purchases...) By doing that I can side-step a lot of the food additive problems and, with sensible food choices--limiting myself to leaner meats like chicken--I'm good on the nutrition as well.

Ignore it and it'll eventually not be repeated. Disconcerting, though, isn't it?

*makes a note to replace "option 9" with "Fass" in the future*
:p

*makes a note to replace "option 9" with "Fass" in the future*
:p

Don't. As annoying as Fass can be, he deserves the right to not be involved in things like that if he doesn't want to be.

Don't. As annoying as Fass can be, he deserves the right to not be involved in things like that if he doesn't want to be.

Did you see the smiley? The comment was merely meant to harass Fass a little, I'm fairly certain that he would realize that if/when he read my comment.

SNIP

if only you wasn't forgetting: water consumption, waste gas production (*giggles*), land use, soil damage, poor work conditions and also employment (more onto economics with the last two I guess)

Your poll lacks a vegan option.

vegans can't eat chocolate now? (I'd be interested to see if you eat honey though)

Why is my name in a poll? :confused:

because your famous and I can't have two self esteem crushing options on one poll

Ignore it and it'll eventually not be repeated. Disconcerting, though, isn't it?

take it you don't want to be on a sexiest NS'er poll?

SNIP

SNIP

I guess somebody better tell thousands of years of Indian tradition that they are silly

If the ability to cheaply ship such food is lost, you can bet that a vegetarian diet will become unsustainable.

pfft I live in England hun and meat will also raise in costs so I don't see what your getting at?

you was making a point about shipping of things like fruit being environmentally unsound however the same goes for meat

Don't. As annoying as Fass can be, he deserves the right to not be involved in things like that if he doesn't want to be.

I'm sure fass can laugh

Omnivore. Don't care what others eat. My brother is a vegetarian for reasons of animal rights actually. But I'm an omnivore. I eat what I want.

However, I probably don't eat meat every day, and if I do, it's not much. And on top of that, whenever possible, I end up eating free range or hunted meat, not by choice, but because I like it more, and it tends to get given to me free. Mathmaticly, 10kg of free deer > 0.5kg of steak for $4.

I have an odd appetite, I get sick of foods for a few months or longer, then eat them again. So my meat diet rotates, as does my vegetable diet.
I love lamb, bacon, and steak though the most. And have a fondness for other things. But an Omnivore I am, as I balance everything.

Actually might be best to call me a sugar-vore, as I've probably had a more junk-food oriented diet all my life.

Your poll lacks a vegan option.

Here's a really odd question. Are you still a vegan or vegetarian if you swallow?
Fass will get that one.

but I was wondering how you achieve this when products such as pork pies exist...


Spend some time sampling various world cuisine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cuisine_by_nationality). Unlike the typical Western "cuisine" so far as I can tell, most tend to incorporate a greater variety of fruits and vegetables in really tasty dishes. Much is even "vegetarian"/"vegan" outright. This might get a little expensive or labor intensive ("take out"/"fast food" does not count) but the improvement in taste, quality, and variety is well worth it.

I personally maintain a vegetarian diet about five days out of the week, and meat once or twice a week simply for reasons of good health. Cage free, organic, fair trade, and without "high fructose corn syrup" if at all possible, please.

Here's a really odd question. Are you still a vegan or vegetarian if you swallow?

Vegetarianism is the practice of a diet that excludes all animal flesh, including poultry, game, fish, shellfish or crustacea, and slaughter by-products
Vegetarian? Yes.

Veganism is a philosophy and lifestyle that seeks to exclude the use of animals for food, clothing, or any other purpose. Vegans do not use or consume animal products of any kind. The most common reasons for becoming a vegan are ethical commitment or moral convictions concerning animal rights, the environment, human health, and spiritual or religious concerns.
Vegan? Based on the bolded I'd be inclined to say no.

I've been a vegetarian since late 1990. Prior to making the decision I was a full-on meat eater. Some of my favourite dishes were baked fish, smoked salmon, crayfish, crumbed lambs brains, lamb chops, pork chops, liver, steak and kidney pie, etc. etc.

Even after almost 18 years I can distinctly remember the taste of any meat dish I ever ate. Sometimes (though it has been a while now) I dream of eating meat and, the funny thing is, its the fattiest, least healthy things - Kentucky fried chicken, souvlaki, sausages or lamb chops.

Despite what I've just written, being vegie has been easy and I've rarely, in my waking hours, felt the urge to eat meat. I'm not squeamish and I have no problems watching other people eat meat. In fact, I sometimes enjoy the smell.

Shortly after becoming vegie I wrote my reasons down. For those of you who could be bothered reading I present them herewith:

1. I reject the notion of a heirarchy of living things. All life on this planet is here by accident. I cannot, in conscience, say that humans have a greater moral claim to life than do animals. If I believe it is wrong to eat people, as I do believe, then it is equally wrong to eat animals. That I am of the species Homo Sapiens is, to me, irrelevant that only others of that species have protection from being eaten. I am a living creature first, a human being second.

2. A meat-based agricultural system is inefficient and ecologically unsound. In a world where people suffer from malnutrition it is incongruous that vast areas are set aside for meat production. The same nutrition can be obtained through a vegetarian diet but using far fewer resources, particularly land. The greatest cause of ecological destruction in this country (Oz) is from farming, especially cattle and sheep farming.

3. The killing of an animal for consumption is a violent act of exploitation. Too often the underlying assumptions of our society are violent. These assumptions must be recognised and eschewed (Freudian slip?). I want to see a society that understands that violence can only be eliminated when such assumptions are rejected.

4. Current farming and slaughtering methods cause suffering to the animals. Any creature that can feel pain or fear has a right to live without pain or fear.

5. I wish to emulate people whom I admire. (Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian. Eek.)

6. Being vegetarian allows me to feel morally superior to the majority of the human population.

In hindsight I realise there was another, psychological, reason. About a year before I had dumped my defacto partner of ten years. I think, in addition to the other reasons, I was trying to raise my moral standing. That I'm still vegie after all these years tells me that this last reason was probably temporary.

I know this has been a long post but I would like to respond to some comments.

Meat as a better source of protein is not a valid argument for adults. We need protein for cell growth. Adults have only a small protein need which is easily satisfied with a vegetarian diet. Young children have much greater need and I know, and have no problems with, vegetarian parents who feed their children meat. Life is full of unreconcilable choices.

The major dietary problems for vegetarians are getting sufficient iron and vitamin B12.

The only vegetarians I've only known with iron deficiency have been women. I suppose it's because they menstruate and need to replenish their blood iron levels. Supplements can get around this problem. I'm male, have never bothered about my iron levels and have never suffered from iron deficiency.

On the other hand, I have a B12 problem. The symptoms are tingling in hands and feet and short term memory problems. There may have been a third symptom but I cannot remember what it was. I now take a B12 supplement and regurlarly eat tempeh which is a source of the vitamin. I fear the memory issues may be permanent but it's a price I've paid for my principles.

There is far greater variety in vegetarian cooking than there is in meat cooking. Period. I love cooking and have plenty of experience of cooking with meat in my pre-vegetarian days. In fact, the major variety to be obtained with cooking meat is what vegetable accompaniment is used and how.

Yes, we are omnivores, however I choose to live by my principles rather than be a slave to my biology.

I dislike vegetarian fascists and have no intention of trying to alter the dietary choices of other people.

Finally, vegetarianism is not a religion. The aim is to improve the world by my own actions, not change it - if that makes sense. Yes, I eat plants which may contravene reason 1 above but that is no reason to give up and eat meat. For sure, crops impact upon the environment but far less than growing meat.

I hope this rave wasn't too long for you.

Animals eat other animals and so shall I. Which is not to say I like the way the food industry does things, but Bambi tastes damn good. I don't eat other carnivores out of professional courtesy.

My family seems to be more naturally carnivorous than other people, too. Not sure why.

But there is one group of vegetarians/vegans at my Uni that are real assholes and accost passersby trying to tell them that vegetarianism is the One True Diet and that vegetarians are so morally superior to us evil meat-eaters.

I can't stand them.


I have an uncle is like that. He even tried his "you're so evil for eating meat. You'll be punished." spiel on my grandmother while she was eating.

I've got nothing against vegetarians. They leave more meat for me :). I do have a problem with the militant vegans and what not that think eating meat is worse than beheading people for fun.

...I do have a problem with the militant vegans and what not that think eating meat is worse than beheading people for fun.

Bear with me as I indulge in some wondering...

People don't need to eat meat - they do it for pleasure, ie it is fun.

The normal methods used in killing animals for their meat is either by a bolt to the head or by slitting their throat. Both are arguably more cruel than beheading.

So, eating meat could be argued as slitting some creature's throat for fun.

I suspect that many people consider cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens, fish et al are lower order animals than humans so slitting their throats for fun is a lesser act than beheading a human for fun.

I'm a carnivore. Probably not good for my health or the environment, but it meat tastes good.

People don't need to eat meat - they do it for pleasure, ie it is fun.


I believe you're working a train of thought here to see where it goes, but let me pull this one out and argue it.

If people don't need to eat meat, how do they get the vitamins and other stuff from it they actually do need?

Yes, yes, pills and suppliments, I know. But those cost money. What if you don't have the money? Well Of course most people say you would if you can buy meat, right? Who says buy it? I know here in NS, and in much of Canada, a lot of poorer rural families rely on hunting their food for meat. I remember a family friend, she had to hunt deer every year to feed her two kids otherwise they would not be able to eat, they were that poor. Do they only eat it to enjoy it, for fun? Or do they do it to get those protiens and vitamins they need? And what about those of us who can buy those suppliments, but for some reason or another they don't go well with us (Allergy, makes you sick, bad taste)?

I mean, I know vegetarians who love bringing that concept up. But really, even my brother doesn't think that. Humans need to eat meat, or find a viable substitute. Humans don't need to eat meat all the friggin time though.

Sadly, I eat meat becuase of my financial situation.
If I had more money, I would definately become a vegetarian/vegan.

I believe you're working a train of thought here to see where it goes, but let me pull this one out and argue it.

If people don't need to eat meat, how do they get the vitamins and other stuff from it they actually do need?

Yes, yes, pills and suppliments, I know. But those cost money. What if you don't have the money? Well Of course most people say you would if you can buy meat, right? Who says buy it? I know here in NS, and in much of Canada, a lot of poorer rural families rely on hunting their food for meat. I remember a family friend, she had to hunt deer every year to feed her two kids otherwise they would not be able to eat, they were that poor. Do they only eat it to enjoy it, for fun? Or do they do it to get those protiens and vitamins they need? And what about those of us who can buy those suppliments, but for some reason or another they don't go well with us (Allergy, makes you sick, bad taste)?

I mean, I know vegetarians who love bringing that concept up. But really, even my brother doesn't think that. Humans need to eat meat, or find a viable substitute. Humans don't need to eat meat all the friggin time though.

Yes, you are correct. I was exploring a train of thought.

In my long thread above I said that "Life is full of unreconcilable choices" and sometimes principles, needs or desires collide. For instances, what if I suffered a massive heart attack and my only chance of survival was to have pig's heart transplated into me. The vegetarian in me would say don't do it. I'm sure I would, though. That doesn't mean I should give up my principles in other areas of my life.

Similarly, if being vegetarian is too expensive, I would simply hope that people would live by their principles as best they could. I find the expense argument odd, though. Vegetables and pulses are much less expensive than meat.

1. I reject the notion of a heirarchy of living things. All life on this planet is here by accident. I cannot, in conscience, say that humans have a greater moral claim to life than do animals. If I believe it is wrong to eat people, as I do believe, then it is equally wrong to eat animals. That I am of the species Homo Sapiens is, to me, irrelevant that only others of that species have protection from being eaten. I am a living creature first, a human being second.

Animals eat other animals. You gonna stop them too? *Tears into a nice juicy chicken*

Animals eat other animals. You gonna stop them too? *Tears into a nice juicy chicken*

Not at all.

In fact, I live with a cat. When I suggest to her that she might consider becoming vegetarian she just looks at me kinda funny. She's an adult cat so I respect her ethical choices.

I believe you're working a train of thought here to see where it goes, but let me pull this one out and argue it.

If people don't need to eat meat, how do they get the vitamins and other stuff from it they actually do need?

Yes, yes, pills and suppliments, I know. But those cost money. What if you don't have the money? Well Of course most people say you would if you can buy meat, right? Who says buy it? I know here in NS, and in much of Canada, a lot of poorer rural families rely on hunting their food for meat. I remember a family friend, she had to hunt deer every year to feed her two kids otherwise they would not be able to eat, they were that poor. Do they only eat it to enjoy it, for fun? Or do they do it to get those protiens and vitamins they need? And what about those of us who can buy those suppliments, but for some reason or another they don't go well with us (Allergy, makes you sick, bad taste)?

I mean, I know vegetarians who love bringing that concept up. But really, even my brother doesn't think that. Humans need to eat meat, or find a viable substitute. Humans don't need to eat meat all the friggin time though.

Quite right. Humans aren't adapted to eat only plant matter. I don't feel the slightest bit ashamed for doing what evolution has built my body to do and including meat as part of my diet.

Animals eat other animals. You gonna stop them too? *Tears into a nice juicy chicken*

I suppose it would be OK if I sneek up behind you, apply this baseball bat in a violent manner, and steal whatever you happen to possess. After all, in nature might makes right. There is no property or safety from violence in any absolute sense.

We are mere animals, after all.

EDIT: Not to defend the argument one is responding to. The statement "All life on this planet is here by accident" is as patently false as any defending intelligent design. And I can think of all sorts of situations where I would value human life over non-human life.

Quite right. Humans aren't adapted to eat only plant matter. I don't feel the slightest bit ashamed for doing what evolution has built my body to do and including meat as part of my diet.

Eating meat is your choice. Your biology doesn't compel you to do it.

Similarly, every time you use a contraceptive you are defying "what evolution has built my body to do".

We are intelligent, reasoning, feeling animals (at least, I hope so). Unlike my cat, we have the ability to choose what we eat.

...Not to defend the argument one is responding to. The statement "All life on this planet is here by accident" is as patently false as any defending intelligent design. And I can think of all sorts of situations where I would value human life over non-human life.

My vegetarianism naturally followed my atheism. In discarding my Christian upbringing I also discarded the notion that the earth was placed here for the benefit and exploitation of humans. IMO, to a large extent, it is our religious beliefs that encourage us to put ourselves on a pedestal.

Animals eat other animals. You gonna stop them too? *Tears into a nice juicy chicken*

I keep finding it surprising how many people here use "starts eating meat just to anoy you" tactics. And how few of them actually bother to respond to the "too much meat is unhealthy as well", "the production of meat is bad for the environment" and "most meat is from tortured animals" aspects of the debate. All the focus seems to be on the "respect all life" idea, ignoring the rest.

Is that because the nonvegetarians are... chicken ;) ?

In discarding my Christian upbringing I also discarded the notion that the earth was placed here for the benefit and exploitation of humans.


Some degree of "exploitation" is necessary, or we should stop eating entirely. This course of action is likely to produce sub-optimal results. And, at any rate, I am led to wonder whether one has simply replaced one pedestal for another.

Religion is entirely irrelevant, and "benefit and exploitation" are here to stay. Thus, the real issue is the manner in which we "benefit and exploit." Complete elimination of meat from the diet is not necessary for sound environmental, nutritional, or moral practice.

I mean, I know vegetarians who love bringing that concept up. But really, even my brother doesn't think that. Humans need to eat meat, or find a viable substitute. Humans don't need to eat meat all the friggin time though.

There are some communities in India who have not eaten meat for like thousands of years (Jains, Brahmins etc). It is quite obvious by their continued existence that you do not need to eat meat to live successfully.

Eating meat is a choice for most people (other than those living in places where they can't grow or procure plant food). I have no issues with somebody saying "I like the taste, so I eat it". But please don't give nonsensical replies like humans are meat eaters by evolution so I eat meat, raising meat is better for the environment than raising crops (on an average more resources are required for a meat diet because the conversion of plant food to animal food instead of raising plant food directly)...

I find the expense argument odd, though. Vegetables and pulses are much less expensive than meat.

I have been told that that is not true in the USA.
Aside from that, meat replacements tend to be more expensive than cheap meat as well.

Some degree of "exploitation" is necessary, or we should stop eating entirely. This course of action is likely to produce sub-optimal results.

True. I think, however, that globally we need to reduce our impact on the environment as best we can.

And, at any rate, I am led to wonder whether one has simply replaced one pedestal for another.

You mean we are putting the environment on a pedestal? Other species? Perhaps. I'm not sure where the boundaries might be.

Religion is entirely irrelevant, and "benefit and exploitation" are here to stay. Thus, the real issue is the manner in which we "benefit and exploit." Complete elimination of meat from the diet is not necessary for sound environmental, nutritional, or moral practice.

Agreed. But it's a step forward.

I keep finding it surprising how many people here use "starts eating meat just to anoy you" tactics. And how few of them actually bother to respond to the "too much meat is unhealthy as well", "the production of meat is bad for the environment" and "most meat is from tortured animals" aspects of the debate. All the focus seems to be on the "respect all life" idea, ignoring the rest.

Is that because the nonvegetarians are... chicken ;) ?

Of course eating to much meat is unhealthy. So is not washing all the chemicals off of the produce you eat.

I believe people are well aware of the environmental damage meat production causes such as clear cutting for grazing and cattle feed. Can't forget methane production from the animals themselves.

As for the tortured animal bit. Have you hung around cows? They have to be the dumbest animals around. We are doing them a favor. I don't feel bad one bit. Now if it were Dolphins then I would feel bad.

I don't care about animals.
I don't care what other people eat

I really dislike these stereotypes.

I just don't eat food I don't like.

i find the whole animals are on the same level as people thing a bit of a poor argument. Because why stop there, Plants and fungus are life too. So it sounds like you are simply changing where you draw the line.
And to the I stopped being Christian so I became vegetarian just sounds like you changed from one guilt ridden ideology to another.

As for the tortured animal bit. Have you hung around cows? They have to be the dumbest animals around. We are doing them a favor. I don't feel bad one bit. Now if it were Dolphins then I would feel bad.


The humane treatment of animals actually promotes food safety and human health. Agricultural operations that produce overcrowded, dirty, and otherwise abusive environments also tend to produce sick animals unfit for consumption. The lack of basic empathy and ethics displayed in animal abuse also tends to manifest itself in the passing off of potentially unsafe products to human consumers.

One such recent case from California:

http://cbs2.com/local/Chino.Slaughterhouse.Closed.2.646948.html

Fortunately, this particular case didn't produce the health threats feared, but the conditions in the plant and of many cows did prompt the USDA to initiate one of its biggest recalls (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/17/AR2008021701530.html).

First of all, you should realize that vegetarianism is not pro-environment. In order to grow crops, you destroy wild environments. This causes the destruction of biomass and the extinction of species. Well maintained grazing land is actually better for the environment than cropland.

I worked in admin on a farm for over 20 years, and when I've taken trips into the field I've seen harvesters tear up birds nests, small animal burrows and snake nests. I've seen dead animals decapitated by plows and harvesters.
That's the touchy-feely part.

Growing enough crops to feed everyone involves fossil fuels (the amount of gas, diesel and oil required to run a farm causes as much pollution as driving cars in the city), chemical pesticides (causing the extinction of numerous insect beneficial insect species as well as the near extinction of birds and small mammals), chemical fertilizers (which, get into water run-off and eventually end up in the ocean causing algal bloom and fish kill).

It's disingenuous to use the environment as a reason for being a vegetarian.

Personal health is actually a better reason. But, again, this comes with a caveat. We are geared to be omnivores - we should eat a little bit of everything and not too much of any one thing. I grant that the Western World does eat too much meat, and we can, if we cook properly, get almost everything we need in a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet. But it's easier if we eat some meat - not every day, and certainly not the pounds of it we (Western nations) do eat.

But animal waste also contributes to algal bloom and fish kill. You assume all farmers use gas or diesel powered machinery, but there are quite a few in my area that use biodiesel. However I agree with you that the ecological benefits of vegetarianism get pretty exaggerated. Especially since the only way to "abolish" animal farming would be if the world were vegan. Vegetarians still need to get their dairy and eggs, and that still means animal farming. But plants simply are more sustainable, and if everyone in the world were vegetarian there would be way more food to go around. Not to mention that slaughterhouses are notoriously unfair employers that pay piss poor wages with no benefits to do work which is psychologically damaging.

i find the whole animals are on the same level as people thing a bit of a poor argument. Because why stop there, Plants and fungus are life too. So it sounds like you are simply changing where you draw the line.

I've addressed this point in earlier posts. Of course, one cannot avoid eating plants and/or fungi. That doesn't mean one should give up and eat meat. Being vegetarian is a step in the right direction.

And to the I stopped being Christian so I became vegetarian just sounds like you changed from one guilt ridden ideology to another.

Possibly, but it's not an argument against vegetarianism.

I've been looking at this for quite some time and have found myself sufficiently swayed by the environmental and economic views to actually have a shift to a vegetarian diet (madness I know but I seem a tad water obsessed these days)

but I was wondering how you achieve this when products such as pork pies exist and also how many of NSG have caught this fad? just post anything you feel is on topic for the next page at least...


poll to come (and also as seen a lack of any real argument to continue to eat meat but I could be swayed I guess)

I don't know about Northampton specifically, but I know that the UK is pretty envied by a lot of American vegetarians and vegans for enjoying way more options than we have here. I don't know about curry houses actually IN the UK, but the little Glaswegian brit-indi place down the road here will put channa or paneer in any curry they serve and it's great! As delicious as I'm sure pork pies are, and as much as I might not be a vegetarian if I grew up in a country where they were available, a good curry IS pretty hard to beat.

I have been told that that is not true in the USA.

Aside from that, meat replacements tend to be more expensive than cheap meat as well.

Not really. If you buy rice, wheat flour (for roti/bread) and pulses, vegetables it comes out cheaper than meat. I have done both and veg stuff is cheaper than meat.

Yes, meat substitutes are a different matter. I don't have to buy them, because I can cook a lot of veg stuff without going the 'meat substitute' way.

Have you hung around cows? They have to be the dumbest animals around. We are doing them a favor. I don't feel bad one bit. Now if it were Dolphins then I would feel bad.

Have you?

I have raised cows in my farm as a child. We had 2 females for milk and 2 males for ploughing the fields. They are not dumb. They could sense just by looking at me if I was gonna take feed them or not. They would obey me even if I don't have a stick with me.

The males would pull the cart and even if I was asleep, they would remember the road and pull the cart to the farm from the store house.

They may not be as smart as dolphins, dogs etc, but they are not that dumb either.

Have you?

I have raised cows in my farm as a child. We had 2 females for milk and 2 males for ploughing the fields. They are not dumb. They could sense just by looking at me if I was gonna take feed them or not. They would obey me even if I don't have a stick with me.

The males would pull the cart and even if I was asleep, they would remember the road and pull the cart to the farm from the store house.

They may not be as smart as dolphins, dogs etc, but they are not that dumb either.

Cows are evil. If you raised cows, then you must know that. I worked on a farm. Cows are evil. *nod*

However, the irony is the most....devout?....vegetarians are usually out there telling me how horrible a person I am because I eat meat. Fucking hypocrits.

For the record omnivores are out there telling me the same thing, there are assholes in every group and I'd like to point out the hypocritical nature of jackasses not matter what their diet.

I believe you're working a train of thought here to see where it goes, but let me pull this one out and argue it.

If people don't need to eat meat, how do they get the vitamins and other stuff from it they actually do need?

Yes, yes, pills and suppliments, I know. But those cost money. What if you don't have the money? Well Of course most people say you would if you can buy meat, right? Who says buy it? I know here in NS, and in much of Canada, a lot of poorer rural families rely on hunting their food for meat. I remember a family friend, she had to hunt deer every year to feed her two kids otherwise they would not be able to eat, they were that poor. Do they only eat it to enjoy it, for fun? Or do they do it to get those protiens and vitamins they need? And what about those of us who can buy those suppliments, but for some reason or another they don't go well with us (Allergy, makes you sick, bad taste)?

I mean, I know vegetarians who love bringing that concept up. But really, even my brother doesn't think that. Humans need to eat meat, or find a viable substitute. Humans don't need to eat meat all the friggin time though.

There are alternative ways to get the vitamins and minerals, and through different foods, not just supplements and vitamins. I'm tired of this argument, it's simply not true if you don't want to eat meat fine but that doesn't mean that it cannot be done as long as you watch what you eat.

Have you?

I have raised cows in my farm as a child. We had 2 females for milk and 2 males for ploughing the fields. They are not dumb. They could sense just by looking at me if I was gonna take feed them or not. They would obey me even if I don't have a stick with me.

The males would pull the cart and even if I was asleep, they would remember the road and pull the cart to the farm from the store house.

They may not be as smart as dolphins, dogs etc, but they are not that dumb either.

Yes I have hung around cows. However I didn't get involved to the extent you are talking about. I also still think they are dumb animals in comparison to other farm animals.

I've addressed this point in earlier posts. Of course, one cannot avoid eating plants and/or fungi. That doesn't mean one should give up and eat meat. Being vegetarian is a step in the right direction.

Not really fields kill animals as well field mice, snakes, the native animals before that field was a field not even mentioning the plant life. Instead I think it is better to simply accept that your life will always come at the cost of others.

Possibly, but it's not an argument against vegetarianism.

Against Vegetarianism itself no it is not.
However against the main reason people put forward to me it is.
Really all i get from most Vegetarians is "we are better because we don't eat meat" and then long run still feeling guilty since eating vegetables still leads to deaths. It is sort of like fundamentalist Christians they are better then everyone else because they sin less (or more then likely apparently sin less),
but they are still guilt wracked because they do in fact sin.

i find the whole animals are on the same level as people thing a bit of a poor argument. Because why stop there, Plants and fungus are life too. So it sounds like you are simply changing where you draw the line.
And to the I stopped being Christian so I became vegetarian just sounds like you changed from one guilt ridden ideology to another.

Animals are on the same level as humans. Which is why we should eat them. If we are on the same level, what's okay for them is okay for us.

Eating meat is your choice. Your biology doesn't compel you to do it.

Similarly, every time you use a contraceptive you are defying "what evolution has built my body to do".

We are intelligent, reasoning, feeling animals (at least, I hope so). Unlike my cat, we have the ability to choose what we eat.
Somebody call the waaaaaaambulance. Yes, eating meat is my choice. I could choose to alter my entire way of life and give myself another pain in the ass to avoid harming some poor fuzzy creature. Fuck that. Humans are animals, animals eat each other if their bodies are adapted to do it. I don't feel any more guilty about eating a dead deer than a wolf does.

And your contraception point is an obvious strawman. Try to include less fail in your posts.

My vegetarianism naturally followed my atheism. In discarding my Christian upbringing I also discarded the notion that the earth was placed here for the benefit and exploitation of humans. IMO, to a large extent, it is our religious beliefs that encourage us to put ourselves on a pedestal.

Not sure what the fuck this has to do with anything. I'm no more a Christian than you are. Perhaps I'm even less, since I'm a pagan. I don't put humans on a pedestal. I don't believe that we're all that different from other animals. What separates us from Chimpanzees is a tiny bit of genetic code. This annoys me about vegetarians and vegans. They claim to be against speciesism, but yet they still place humans above other animals. "Oh, well they don't know any better, but we do." That's as condescending a statement as I've ever heard. You place humans on a pedestal as much as any Christian.

And your contraception point is an obvious strawman. Try to include less fail in your posts.

Eeehm - it is actually a completely valid comparison. Humans evolved to procreate. Not to fuck for fun. Just like humans evolved as omnivores. Not to pity creatures they eat.
There are plenty of people that truly believe that using contraceptives is "unnatural" and therefor wrong. Other people believe that since we are blessed with conciousness we can say "fuck it, I can make my own choices".

They claim to be against speciesism, but yet they still place humans above other animals. "Oh, well they don't know any better, but we do." That's as condescending a statement as I've ever heard. You place humans on a pedestal as much as any Christian.

*raises eyebrow*
Saying that humans can do something other animals lack can also be a simple statement of fact. I can not rip someones head clean off, a bear or gorilla can. I can not breathe underwater, fish can. Am I now placing gorillas and fish on a pedestal or just noticing that they have different skills ?

...And your contraception point is an obvious strawman...

I don't think so.

In a strawcreature situation I try to debunk claim A by debunking claim B. Claim B is the strawcreature.

I was simply making the point that people commonly make decisions that are contrary to their biological makeup.

I'm an omnivore, and a dick about it. I think Vegetarians are stupid.

True story: I visited a local vegan restaurant, wearing a 40 year old leather coat, leather cowboy boots, a leather belt and tried to order a steak. They were not amused.

odd I still haven't found any real counter-arguments yet

I mean, I know vegetarians who love bringing that concept up. But really, even my brother doesn't think that. Humans need to eat meat, or find a viable substitute. Humans don't need to eat meat all the friggin time though.

I find it odd that the same argument gets posted and the very same page that I debunked it

In fact, I live with a cat. When I suggest to her that she might consider becoming vegetarian she just looks at me kinda funny. She's an adult cat so I respect her ethical choices.

:D

I don't know about Northampton specifically, but I know that the UK is pretty envied by a lot of American vegetarians and vegans for enjoying way more options than we have here.

we are a nation founded on sprouts ;)

True story: I visited a local vegan restaurant, wearing a 40 year old leather coat, leather cowboy boots, a leather belt and tried to order a steak. They were not amused.

I'm going to pop in a steakhouse one day and order the salad.

there is really only one good reason to be Vegetarian you just don't like the taste(or other effects) of meat.

there is really only one good reason to be Vegetarian

Well, aren't you unimaginative.

vegans can't eat chocolate now? (I'd be interested to see if you eat honey though

Depends on the chocolate - most of it out there can contain added animal secretions so one has to read carefully and know one's E-numbers. And no, proper vegans don't eat honey.

Well, aren't you unimaginative.

it is just all their other reasons i have heard are Vegetarians trying claim to be better humans then anyone else or just by and large developing the guilt ridden ideology of fundie Christians.

Here's a really odd question. Are you still a vegan or vegetarian if you swallow?
Fass will get that one.

It wasn't an odd question. It was an outright stupid and irrelevant one.

They claim to be against speciesism, but yet they still place humans above other animals. "Oh, well they don't know any better, but we do." That's as condescending a statement as I've ever heard.

Similarly, recognizing the equality of infants means treating them the same way they treat us--that is, without any consideration of morality.

Right?

it is just all their other reasons i have heard are Vegetarians trying claim to be better humans then anyone else or just by and large developing the guilt ridden ideology of fundie Christians.

Well, aren't your socially limited anecdotes anecdotally inconsequential.

I'm vegetarien. At first it was because I didn't like the idea of sentient creatures being killed for something I don't need, but now it's more of a boycott against factory farming and cos I've gone off the taste of meat. I shoud go vegan (dairy cows live in apalling conditions) but I think that would be a lot of effort and I'm lazy. Being veggie is realy easy though and I've never had any health problems.

Another thing, I read this statistic somewhere that a hecter of land can feed a hell of a lot more vegeterians/vegans that it can people with a high-meat diet.

Mostly vegetarian.
Meaning that since moving in with my BF, who is vegetarian, I find myself eating meat only now and again, mostly when we go out for dinner. At home, I usually cook vegetarian these days... I'd like to be fully vegetarian, but I just like the taste of meat too much to give it up entirely. Every now and again I just need some of it...

Mostly vegetarian.
Meaning that since moving in with my BF, who is vegetarian, I find myself eating meat only now and again, mostly when we go out for dinner. At home, I usually cook vegetarian these days... I'd like to be fully vegetarian, but I just like the taste of meat too much to give it up entirely. Every now and again I just need some of it...

Tried replacing meat with Quorn or soy-based meat replacements?

For every animal that you vegetarians don't eat, I'm going to eat three. :p

And I just had leftover steak for breakfast. Life is great.

Tried replacing meat with Quorn or soy-based meat replacements?

I do. Since I'm doing most of the cooking, I'm gathering new recipes every day, but there are still some that just are better with something like meat. Sausage hotpot and the like.

But usually, when we go for a Chinese I personally just cannot resist the duck dishes. I'm just undisciplined that way, I'm afraid.

For every animal that you vegetarians don't eat, I'm going to eat three. :p

Overeating meat is far, far more unhealthy than a vegetarian diet :p

For every animal that you vegetarians don't eat, I'm going to eat three.

Enjoy your colon cancer.

I do. Since I'm doing most of the cooking, I'm gathering new recipes every day, but there are still some that just are better with something like meat. Sausage hotpot and the like.

I have no idea what that is, but meat sausage is vile so you should cut it out - they put all the nastiest, left-over bits in them.

But usually, when we go for a Chinese I personally just cannot resist the duck dishes. I'm just undisciplined that way, I'm afraid.

http://new.mytheme.com/mytheme/newbuddy/10686896516006.gif

The other carnivorous and omnivorous animals are laughing at the idiocy of human "vegetarianism".yeah, the lower risk of colon cancer, ischemic heart disease, diabetes, and so on is just hilarious.

I have no idea what that is, but meat sausage is vile so you should cut it out - they put all the nastiest, left-over bits in them.


I know. That's why I found this : http://www.frys-special.com/Prod_Chunky.asp

It says it's for wok stir fry, but that stuff tastes just like sausages.
I can send you a recipe for hotpot if you like.


http://new.mytheme.com/mytheme/newbuddy/10686896516006.gif


I know, I know. I get told that I'm eating Daffy every time I order duck. :(
But I just like the meat.

yeah, the lower risk of colon cancer, ischemic heart disease, diabetes, and so on is just hilarious.

Not to mention the idea that the animals would laugh at not being eaten. Not to mention the idea that animals (apart from hominidae and possibly cetacea) would laugh at anything at all.

Cows are evil. If you raised cows, then you must know that. I worked on a farm. Cows are evil. *nod*

You got kicked when you tried to milk one? :p

One time, a calf was not tied properly and it rushed to the cow when I was milking it..the cow jumped and kicked me...knocked the wind out of me..

I know. That's why I found this : http://www.frys-special.com/Prod_Chunky.asp

It says it's for wok stir fry, but that stuff tastes just like sausages.
I can send you a recipe for hotpot if you like.

I always appreciate a recipe. :)

I know, I know. I get told that I'm eating Daffy every time I order duck. :(
But I just like the meat.

It's your choice to make.

I know, I know. I get told that I'm eating Daffy every time I order duck. :(
But I just like the meat.

Stupid delicious animals.

I am a vegan, but as the option is not there I clicked vegetarian XD

I've been looking at this for quite some time and have found myself sufficiently swayed by the environmental and economic views to actually have a shift to a vegetarian diet (madness I know but I seem a tad water obsessed these days)

but I was wondering how you achieve this when products such as pork pies exist and also how many of NSG have caught this fad? just post anything you feel is on topic for the next page at least...


poll to come (and also as seen a lack of any real argument to continue to eat meat but I could be swayed I guess)

it's really up to you.

me, I love my meat. so I won't subscribe to Vegitarianism...

however, I won't be snotty about it. you know, discuss the pros and cons of my diet with those who don't share my diet. I will also make allowances for those on special diets... like Vegie dishes for Vegitarians, low sugar dishes for Diabetics, Gluten free for those who cannot eat Gluten, etc...

I know, I know. I get told that I'm eating Daffy every time I order duck. :(
But I just like the meat.

anyone tells me that, they would get this reply.
"Mmmm... good, that Fucking irritating duck is too fucking delicious... so how may Bugs Bunnies, Bambi's and other critters did you make homeless to get the land to farm your veggies?"

anyone tells me that, they would get this reply.
"Mmmm... good, that Fucking irritating duck is too fucking delicious... so how may Bugs Bunnies, Bambi's and other critters did you make homeless to get the land to farm your veggies?"

"Quite a few. But at least they were not tortured."

"Quite a few. But at least they were not tortured."

"yep, not tortured, only forced outta their homes to become burdens in other areas and to slowly starve as food becomes scarce and resources stretched thin. but you're right, they are not tortured."

"yep, not tortured, only forced outta their homes to become burdens in other areas and to slowly starve as food becomes scarce and resources stretched thin. but you're right, they are not tortured."

"Hey - they died free. FREE ! Why do you hate freedom ?"

;)

"Hey - they died free. FREE ! Why do you hate freedom ?"

;)

"So says a person who is objecting to me excercising my Freedom to eat a roasted duck..." :D

"So says a person who is objecting to me excercising my Freedom to eat a roasted duck..." :D

"Ever hear of the 28th Amendment?"

If you had an option for fish-eatarian, that would be me. But alas, you do not.

Long live those who gobble on fish!!

Let red meat be!!!

http://www.diseaseproof.com/23meat-600.jpg

If you had an option for fish-eatarian, that would be me. But alas, you do not.

Long live those who gobble on fish!!

Let red meat be!!!

http://www.diseaseproof.com/23meat-600.jpg

Would you consider fish to be meat?

I always thought that the flesh of any animal was meat, but there is apparently some opposition to this idea.

Would you consider fish to be meat?

I always thought that the flesh of any animal was meat, but there is apparently some opposition to this idea.

No, to me, and bare that in mind, to me meat is cow, pork or goat, and perhaps bird meat too.

Fish is not. Not to me.

"Ever hear of the 28th Amendment?"
"nope, and neither did you."

No, to me, and bare that in mind, to me meat is cow, pork or goat, and perhaps bird meat too.

Fish is not. Not to me.
With that in mind, cannibalistic vegetarians loom into my peripheral vision.
"nope, and neither did you."

"Exactly. Eat up. ;)"

"Exactly. Eat up. ;)"

Here, have a soy duck. looks just like duck... but tastes just like soy. :p

No, to me, and bare that in mind, to me meat is cow, pork or goat, and perhaps bird meat too.

Fish is not. Not to me.

That seems silly. It's still the flesh of an animal.

Similarly, recognizing the equality of infants means treating them the same way they treat us--that is, without any consideration of morality.

Right?

You're talking to the wrong guy. I think you want to talk to someone who cares, not me.

You're talking to the wrong guy. I think you want to talk to someone who cares, not me.

:rolleyes:

Is this whining really the best you can do?

I'm an omnivore, and a dick about it. I think Vegetarians are stupid.

True story: I visited a local vegan restaurant, wearing a 40 year old leather coat, leather cowboy boots, a leather belt and tried to order a steak. They were not amused.

Awesome.

Here, have a soy duck. looks just like duck... but tastes just like soy. :p

Soy is the wave of the estrogen filled future.

You're talking to the wrong guy. I think you want to talk to someone who cares, not me.

Yeah, how dare he assume that you want to discuss a topic you post to on a discussion forum? Silly him, eh.

:rolleyes:

Is this whining really the best you can do?

Whining? Who's whining? You said something about babies, I don't give a shit about babies, so I told you to talk to someone else who might. Seems to me you're the one doing the bitching. "Ohhh what about da poor infants???"

Soy is the wave of the estrogen filled future.

It turns you gay, so it goes without saying that it's the future, but it is quite a testosterone-filled future, and not an oestrogen-filled one, I'll tell you.

It turns you gay, so it goes without saying that it's the future, but it is quite a testosterone-filled future, and not an oestrogen-filled one, I'll tell you.

The government has been lying to me all along...

But that does explain why the official kept supplying me with those soy tablets(to mix into one's drink twice daily) all the while winking suggestively...:eek:

I alwayse keep it pretty simple: what the hell do you think I am, a rabbit/cow/horse/gorilla or something? F no, I'm a human, thus I feed like a human, means a healthy mix between green-food supplemented by certain kinds of meats (means fish, mammals, birds, reptiles, insects etc, depends) and other sources of animal protein like eggs. All ofcourse depending on the season and plcae where you live. But alas, I can be called a hypocrite, because even though I want to eat like that (afterall, it's our natural diet) I simply cannot. Hopefully in the future, when I can live on my own for example.
No, to me, and bare that in mind, to me meat is cow, pork or goat, and perhaps bird meat too.

Fish is not. Not to me.
Explain please, because I really doesn't make any sense. They're all animal protein, so are bugs. Please don't tell me it's the fluffy-factor, kids have been brainwashed by Bambi-shit far too long...

You said something about babies, I don't give a shit about babies, so I told you to talk to someone else who might. Seems to me you're the one doing the bitching. "Ohhh what about da poor infants???"

Oh, cut out the ridiculous posturing. It's not an excuse for irrationality and never has been.

Since you seem inclined to completely ignore my point, I'll note it a different way. Put simply, granting other entities equal respect and consideration in no way excludes making distinctions among them according to concrete material capacity. The simple fact of the matter is that most animals can't think morally. Humans can. It's absurd to use the (necessarily non-moral) behavior of such animals to justify the behavior of human beings.

Oh, cut out the ridiculous posturing. It's not an excuse for irrationality and never has been.

Since you seem inclined to completely ignore my point, I'll note it a different way. Put simply, granting other entities equal respect and consideration in no way excludes making distinctions among them according to concrete material capacity. The simple fact of the matter is that most animals can't think morally. Humans can. It's absurd to use the (necessarily non-moral) behavior of such animals to justify the behavior of human beings.
What's the base of the first? Really, nothing more then a gut feeling? Who says an elephant can't think morally, or a chimpansee can't? Pretty nice assumption you made there. It sounds like another example of the typically human superioritycomplex. I wonder if it's a byproduct of self-awareness...
Anyway, a good example in the light of this topic about the moral question may be the North-American indians. I think that's pretty self-explanatory.

Who says an elephant can't think morally, or a chimpansee can't?

Certainly not me. Did I say so?

Anyway, a good example in the light of this topic about the moral question may be the North-American indians. I think that's pretty self-explanatory.

No, it isn't. Care to clarify?

Certainly not me. Did I say so?



No, it isn't. Care to clarify?
First of all, yea, I thought you sad that. At least it sounded like that, the typical human superiority. I hope you didn't mean it then, I so hate it.

Anyway, ofcourse I can clarify. What I ment is that the North American indians are 1 of the best examples to show how people can morally interact with nature without abandoning the normal human diet and without acting like a hippy douchebag. What would be the source of that? I think the source is there understanding that humans are also just another cog in the big machine called Earth, that we are dependant of the earth.
That's a short version :P

Oh, cut out the ridiculous posturing. It's not an excuse for irrationality and never has been.

Since you seem inclined to completely ignore my point, I'll note it a different way. Put simply, granting other entities equal respect and consideration in no way excludes making distinctions among them according to concrete material capacity. The simple fact of the matter is that most animals can't think morally. Humans can. It's absurd to use the (necessarily non-moral) behavior of such animals to justify the behavior of human beings.

I don't need excuses for my irrationality. Especially not to keep you going BAWWWWW!!!!! as long as possible.

First of all, yea, I thought you sad that.

I said "most animals", not all. My choice of words was quite deliberate... social, intelligent animals like elephants, chimpanzees, and dolphins may well be exceptions to one degree or another.

First of all, yea, I thought you sad that. At least it sounded like that, the typical human superiority. I hope you didn't mean it then, I so hate it.

Anyway, ofcourse I can clarify. What I ment is that the North American indians are 1 of the best examples to show how people can morally interact with nature without abandoning the normal human diet and without acting like a hippy douchebag. What would be the source of that? I think the source is there understanding that humans are also just another cog in the big machine called Earth, that we are dependant of the earth.
That's a short version :P

I would agree with this post. A think a whole lot that's wrong with humanity comes from thinking of ourselves as apart from nature and the natural world. We are part of the world and we have our place in the food web like all other animals. We're very good at fucking that all up. We don't exist in some separate realm from all other natural life. The Native American tribes for the most part seem to have understood that better than our current culture does.

Especially not to keep you going BAWWWWW!!!!! as long as possible.

Apparently I overestimated you. Again.

I shall be sure to not make the same mistake again.

Apparently I overestimated you. Again.

I shall be sure to not make the same mistake again.

No, you will. Your mistake is that you actually try, on NSG. And you just come off sounding like a pompous ass. I've observed this possibly dozens of times. This is a shitty online forum, why are you taking it seriously? All you end up doing is making yourself look like an arrogant buffoon, when really you've been duped into trying to debate with me, when I'm really not interested in discussing things with someone I know will never agree with me, nor I with him. Nothing will be resolved, nothing ever is. So I cut out the bullshit in between the start of "debate" and skip to the part where it becomes a vitriol filled lulzfest.

This is a shitty online forum, why are you taking it seriously?

You may not actually be interested in serious discussion, but some of us (and not just me) are. If you don't want to participate, well, don't... but don't stop in the middle just because someone decides to mount an argument against what you say.

:rolleyes:

I'm an omnivore, and a dick about it. I think Vegetarians are stupid.

True story: I visited a local vegan restaurant, wearing a 40 year old leather coat, leather cowboy boots, a leather belt and tried to order a steak. They were not amused.

Oh come on, you own a leather coat and cowboy boots? You could be beating up children and people would still laugh at you.

You may not actually be interested in serious discussion, but some of us (and not just me) are. If you don't want to participate, well, don't... but don't stop in the middle just because someone decides to mount an argument against what you say.

:rolleyes:

Again with the mistaking me for someone who cares.

Oh come on, you own a leather coat and cowboy boots? You could be beating up children and people would still laugh at you.

Dang... and I was just going to invest in clothing like that. (plus a hat)

If the cattle start laughing at me...

I alwayse keep it pretty simple: what the hell do you think I am, a rabbit/cow/horse/gorilla or something? F no, I'm a human, thus I feed like a human, means a healthy mix between green-food supplemented by certain kinds of meats (means fish, mammals, birds, reptiles, insects etc, depends) and other sources of animal protein like eggs. All ofcourse depending on the season and plcae where you live. But alas, I can be called a hypocrite, because even though I want to eat like that (afterall, it's our natural diet) I simply cannot. Hopefully in the future, when I can live on my own for example.

Explain please, because I really doesn't make any sense. They're all animal protein, so are bugs. Please don't tell me it's the fluffy-factor, kids have been brainwashed by Bambi-shit far too long...

Oh no, this is just me being completely arbitrary. They´re all animal protein, you´re right but it seems that, to eat fish, is more healthy, in my eyes, than eating red meat. As for the fluffy factor: Screw Bambi! Hated the film and I hate deer. Although I´ve heard deer meat is a delicacy.

Screw Bambi! Hated the film and I hate deer. Although I´ve heard deer meat is a delicacy.

You're...a...ROBOT! :eek:

I don't need excuses for my irrationality. Especially not to keep you going BAWWWWW!!!!! as long as possible.

So I cut out the bullshit in between the start of "debate" and skip to the part where it becomes a vitriol filled lulzfest.

Again with the mistaking me for someone who cares.

Trolling, much? Cut it out, now!

You'd best step away from the computer for a bit, before I have to make sure you do. Don't push your luck.

Soheran, lower the temperature of your posts, please, and don't respond to provocation.

You're...a...ROBOT! :eek:

Correction: I´m a FemBot.:cool:

You're...a...ROBOT! :eek:

LOL!!!

When I went to Bambi, standing in line were my father's friend and his family. they got to talking and the topic of the recent trip they were on came up.

they had just come back from a hunting trip where they shot and ate...

Venison... :D

Again with the mistaking me for someone who cares.

shoo your just being a pain in this thread I think

edit: looks like the mods are more efficient than me being nice are *pays protection money*

Oh no, this is just me being completely arbitrary. They´re all animal protein, you´re right but it seems that, to eat fish, is more healthy, in my eyes, than eating red meat.

more environmentally (in a way) and people sound too ;)

plus fish are perverts anyway...

As for the fluffy factor: Screw Bambi! Hated the film and I hate deer.

even when her mom gets shot? :(

Correction: I´m a FemBot.:cool:
Hmm...*is thinking*
LOL!!!

When I went to Bambi, standing in line were my father's friend and his family. they got to talking and the topic of the recent trip they were on came up.

they had just come back from a hunting trip where they shot and ate...

Venison... :D
Hilarious. :p

Were they swarmed and beaten by a horde of little kids after the movie?

more environmentally (in a way) and people sound too ;)

plus fish are perverts anyway...



even when her mom gets shot? :(

Fish are perverts?

Yup, even when her mom gets shot. I hate Bambi with a passion.

more environmentally (in a way) and people sound too ;)

plus fish are perverts anyway...

Uh, not really... (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/02/health/webmd/main2147223.shtml)

Uh, not really... (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/02/health/webmd/main2147223.shtml)

No more fishies for me to eat?:(

Im a college student...Im a nothingtarion...or naddavore....or broke...however you want to say it

Hmm...*is thinking*

Hilarious. :p

Were they swarmed and beaten by a horde of little kids after the movie?

no, but I heard his daughter loved the film. :p

I wonder if she really knew what she ate the night before...

Im a college student...Im a nothingtarion...or naddavore....or broke...however you want to say it

actually, doesn't that make you an Everythinavore?

Expired? only by a day... so it's still good.
hmmm... jelly... and water... JUICE!
Kechup on bread with some leftover breakfast... poor man Pizza for lunch!

Fish are perverts?


You remember that time we were in Rosalito on the coast of Baja, and we were on the beach with those two girls down from Thomas Jefferson Law School in San Diego and when the blonde got drunk and fell into the ocean, and when we pulled her out, there was a trout sticking out of her....um...well out of her, and when we pulled it out, it said "stick me back in, she's drunk, she'll never know"? You remember that?

Fish are perverts?

they think its kinky to do all that sex in our drinking water! not to mention the smell...

Yup, even when her mom gets shot. I hate Bambi with a passion.

but...but she can talk and stuff!

Uh, not really... (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/02/health/webmd/main2147223.shtml)

fish farming is needed then I guess

You remember that time we were in Rosalito on the coast of Baja, and we were on the beach with those two girls down from Thomas Jefferson Law School in San Diego and when the blonde got drunk and fell into the ocean, and when we pulled her out, there was a trout sticking out of her....um...well out of her, and when we pulled it out, it said "stick me back in, she's drunk, she'll never know"? You remember that?

So... what does that make Jaws?

Would you consider fish to be meat?

I always thought that the flesh of any animal was meat, but there is apparently some opposition to this idea.

Religion holds that eating fish is not eating meat.

it is why the catholics on meatless Fridays during lent can eat fish.
It is also why a reason why sushi became big in Korea when the king was buddhist meat consumption was out lawed, but fish was considered okay.

Religion holds that eating fish is not eating meat.

it is why the catholics on meatless Fridays during lent can eat fish.
It is also why a reason why sushi became big in Korea when the king was buddhist meat consumption was out lawed, but fish was considered okay.


The permission of Catholics eating fish is because the pope at that time, Androgenium III, was actually a woman in disguise (she was later uncovered using the "chair with a hole underneat so they can check that you've got a sack" method).

She allowed the eating of fish to acclimate men to providing oral sex, and left meat as bad during lent to deny men as much fellatio.

This is absolutely true.

You remember that time we were in Rosalito on the coast of Baja, and we were on the beach with those two girls down from Thomas Jefferson Law School in San Diego and when the blonde got drunk and fell into the ocean, and when we pulled her out, there was a trout sticking out of her....um...well out of her, and when we pulled it out, it said "stick me back in, she's drunk, she'll never know"? You remember that?

I think I was far too drunk to remember, Jha. But you seem to remember very well.:D And what happened after?

they think its kinky to do all that sex in our drinking water! not to mention the smell...



but...but she can talk and stuff!

Oh gods! The whale´s sperm is the cause of the high levels of salt in sea water. I read it somewhere!!!

As for Bambi´s mom, I don´t care. She can speak French and give me fellatio for all I care.:p

Trolling, much? Cut it out, now!

You'd best step away from the computer for a bit, before I have to make sure you do. Don't push your luck.

Soheran, lower the temperature of your posts, please, and don't respond to provocation.

Sorry Ardchoille (scampers away with tail between legs).

Oh gods! The whale´s sperm is the cause of the high levels of salt in sea water. I read it somewhere!!!
*thinks back to all those happy years playing in the beach and accidentally swallowing ocean water.*

thanks, another childhood memory ruined... :headbang:

*thinks back to all those happy years playing in the beach and accidentally swallowing ocean water.*

thanks, another childhood memory ruined... :headbang:

Oh, no worries with your ruined childhood memories. I´ll never go back to the beach. Not ever ever ever ever again!:(

Oh no, this is just me being completely arbitrary. They´re all animal protein, you´re right but it seems that, to eat fish, is more healthy, in my eyes, than eating red meat. As for the fluffy factor: Screw Bambi! Hated the film and I hate deer. Although I´ve heard deer meat is a delicacy.
Red meat isn't unhealthy per definition, it's over-consumption causes health problems (heart disease and stuff like that). Over-comsumption from oranges isn't exactly healthy as well ;) But heck a steak once in a week or something won't damage your health, it's all about quanity and quality. Most red meats suck quality-wise, because they're from the bio-industry. That's why I want to buy biologicaly/ecological meat. Sure it's expensive, but quality has it's price, and we're not supposed to eat craploads of meat anyway.
Both fish meat and red meat (most bird meat isn't red meat as well, some species are) have there benefits and downsides.

Oh, no worries with your ruined childhood memories. I´ll never go back to the beach. Not ever ever ever ever again!:(

easy for you... I LIVE ON AN ISLAND!!!! :headbang:

and what makes it worse... the Humpback Whales come here for mating!!! :headbang::headbang::headbang:

easy for you... I LIVE ON AN ISLAND!!!! :headbang:

and what makes it worse... the Humpback Whales come here for mating!!! :headbang::headbang::headbang:

Get out your video camera. There are people who pay to see that kind of stuff.. Though they usually use the term 'observe' or 'study' and call themselves 'scientists', we all know they are perverts who order the famous whale fetish magazine called 'Humpback' and...you can only imagine it is the stuff of nightmares.

getting back on topic a good site that actually provides pros and cons to a vegetarian diet.
http://www.acu-cell.com/veg.html

getting back on topic a good site that actually provides pros and cons to a vegetarian diet.

What?
I apologize for chuckling to myself, but I guess you forgot the link.

What?
I apologize for chuckling to myself, but I guess you forgot the link.

yeah i noticed and fixed it two seconds after the post

yeah i noticed and fixed it two seconds after the post

Everyone's a critic. That includes me.

Everyone's a critic. That includes me.

if a flaming bag of poo winds up on your door step don't blame me :P

easy for you... I LIVE ON AN ISLAND!!!! :headbang:

and what makes it worse... the Humpback Whales come here for mating!!! :headbang::headbang::headbang:

:eek:

if a flaming bag of poo winds up on your door step don't blame me :P

I believe in biofuels, so it would be alright.

I believe in biofuels, so it would be alright.

YOU! THE CAUSE OF THE RECENT HIKE IN FOOD PRICES! :mad:

*whips out knive and fork*

Better have you as a cheap substitute then. :p

YOU! THE CAUSE OF THE RECENT HIKE IN FOOD PRICES! :mad:

*whips out knive and fork*

Better have you as a cheap substitute then. :p

I believe in them to the point that I acknowledge they exist, I don't agree with them.

Stay your fork and knife you knave!

YOU! THE CAUSE OF THE RECENT HIKE IN FOOD PRICES! :mad:

*whips out knive and fork*

Better have you as a cheap substitute then. :p

i blame the Us goverment for paying farmers not to farm.

i think the poll is missing the all important "anything that don't eat me first" option. "anything that stands still long enough" is almost qualified.

there are of course envirinmental costs to eating something that has itself to eat. such as that it takes corispondingly more land to be able to do so.

if i had to kill AND butcher it myself, yes, i'd probably eat a whole lot less animal protien then i do.

=^^=
.../\...

I've been vegetarian on and off for about 3 years, and I'm solidly so now, and considering becoming a vegan.:D

I wonder if the vegetarian-preacher is a purely American phenomenon? The only time I've heard such sentiment over here it's been pretty firmly tongue-in-cheek.:p

C'mon people, be part of the solution. End Cow-related flatulence, eat meat! :sniper:

I believe in them to the point that I acknowledge they exist, I don't agree with them.

Stay your fork and knife you knave!

Well, as a knave, he should also be an eater of base meats...

I've been vegetarian on and off for about 3 years, and I'm solidly so now, and considering becoming a vegan.:D

I wonder if the vegetarian-preacher is a purely American phenomenon? The only time I've heard such sentiment over here it's been pretty firmly tongue-in-cheek.:p

yeah I think it is the American tradition of trying to piss each other off the most with out getting into a fight that does it.
vegetarian preacher tells people they are evil for eating meat.
meat eaters heckle preacher.
preacher's peta friends throw red paint on people.
Meat eaters buy ground beef to throw on preacher and peta peeps.

It is a cycle. you likely noticed how the two sides love to quip at each other in this thread and i am willing to bet most of the perpetrators are American.

but don't take it too serious it is just our sense of humor.

I cannot become vegetarian, because I'm
EAT-ALL-ian.

Red meat isn't unhealthy per definition, it's over-consumption causes health problems (heart disease and stuff like that). Over-comsumption from oranges isn't exactly healthy as well ;) But heck a steak once in a week or something won't damage your health, it's all about quanity and quality. Most red meats suck quality-wise, because they're from the bio-industry. That's why I want to buy biologicaly/ecological meat. Sure it's expensive, but quality has it's price, and we're not supposed to eat craploads of meat anyway.
Both fish meat and red meat (most bird meat isn't red meat as well, some species are) have there benefits and downsides.

I eat red meat, but only once in a while. I tend to avoid it, eventhough I know it also has it's benefits, because it gives me acid reflux. That's why I tend to stick with bird meat and fish.

I do have to say that at one point in my life, I hated the sight of red meat. I hated it so much to the point of refusing to eat it.:p

I always appreciate a recipe. :)


Just TGed you the recipe :)

anyone tells me that, they would get this reply.
"Mmmm... good, that Fucking irritating duck is too fucking delicious... so how may Bugs Bunnies, Bambi's and other critters did you make homeless to get the land to farm your veggies?"

*lol

Nah, I'm rather tolerant with that... he has to be with me, too, anyway.

but don't take it too serious it is just our sense of humor.

Hmm. But for some this matter is serious. To use a Godwin: for them it is like seeing you throw a few jews into a gaschamber and gas them, while you say "hey - just kidding, no hard feelings mmkay ?"

They just do not consider it funny. Which is where the animal rights extremists come from - if people keep mocking your most fundamental beliefs, are not even willing to listen to them... then you could get angry.

"yep, not tortured, only forced outta their homes to become burdens in other areas and to slowly starve as food becomes scarce and resources stretched thin. but you're right, they are not tortured."
So you're saying that 1 acre of land can be used to produce a greater mass of beef than potatoes? :confused: Explain how that makes any sense.

Hmm. But for some this matter is serious. To use a Godwin: for them it is like seeing you throw a few jews into a gaschamber and gas them, while you say "hey - just kidding, no hard feelings mmkay ?"

They just do not consider it funny. Which is where the animal rights extremists come from - if people keep mocking your most fundamental beliefs, are not even willing to listen to them... then you could get angry.

the humor results from the fact we have listened we just don't agree and want to get back on with our lives.
The Vegetarian preacher is just as bad as the fundie Christian preacher.
I know more like to be called planet killer or barbarian meat eater then I like to be called evil sinner going to hell.
As it becomes annoying we heckle. the vegetarians who go to school here never to my knowledge behave in such fashion, it is only those visiting preacher types.

the humor results from the fact we have listened we just don't agree and want to get back on with our lives.


Assume your neighbour genuinely believes that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with molesting children, as long as they are black. Assume the authorities are unwilling to get involved.
You have tried to explain to him why it is wrong, he listened (or at least claims he did), did not agree and wants to get back on with his child-molesting life.

Would you leave it at that ? Would you agree with the man if he called your continued concern "humorous" ?

Assume your neighbour genuinely believes that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with molesting children, as long as they are black. Assume the authorities are unwilling to get involved.
You have tried to explain to him why it is wrong, he listened (or at least claims he did), did not agree and wants to get back on with his child-molesting life.

Would you leave it at that ? Would you agree with the man if he called your continued concern "humorous" ?

your using an extreme example, and one that involves someone breaking the law. however i don't thinks I'd talk to him myself id let the police do that.

*lol

Nah, I'm rather tolerant with that... he has to be with me, too, anyway.
well, I just didn't like Daffy... :p

So you're saying that 1 acre of land can be used to produce a greater mass of beef than potatoes? :confused: Explain how that makes any sense.
if you read my post, I mentioned Bunnies and Deer being made homeless, not beef. Two reasons to deforest a region is 1) home and 2) farmland.

Most of the... er... confrontational vegetarians I've met always try to put the evils of eating meat on the suffering of the animals while totally ignoring that the food they eat are grown from land taken from wild animals and the growning foods are kept from wild animals (ever seen a farmer allow rabbits, deer and other foraging wildlife free access to their fields?)

thus wild animals are being forced out of the area, into smaller and smaller regions that cannot support them with food and shelter. yet they seem to think that's ok to do to the wild animals who only want to forage in the areas that they once called 'home'.

and two, I've never seen any cattle rancher go through his feild to 'weed' it. :p

your using an extreme example, and one that involves someone breaking the law. however i don't thinks I'd talk to him myself id let the police do that.

The point is that *you* consider this an extreme example which cannot compare. Quite a few people on this planet however actually do consider the issue of animal rights to be this or even more important. That you consider that silly of them does not change their opinion. Nor does it make them feel amused by statements like "for every animal you will not eat I eat three", just like others are not amused by statements like "for every ****** you do not enslave, I will enslave and rape three" - especially if they know you actually will do it.

Most of the... er... confrontational vegetarians I've met always try to put the evils of eating meat on the suffering of the animals while totally ignoring that the food they eat are grown from land taken from wild animals and the growning foods are kept from wild animals

Lesser evil. Growing hay and feed for cattle and converting that into meat takes more acreage than growing crops directly for human consumption (in a pound for pound comparison)

and two, I've never seen any cattle rancher go through his feild to 'weed' it. :p

How much of the modern meat supply is from cattle ranchers grazing cattle in the wild?

So you're saying that 1 acre of land can be used to produce a greater mass of beef than potatoes? Explain how that makes any sense

When you feed veg to a cow most of it gets shat strate out again or used to produce heat. Only some of it is converted into meat. So you end up with a smaller mass of meat than of the veg you fed it.

Lesser evil. Growing hay and feed for cattle and converting that into meat takes more acreage than growing crops directly for human consumption (in a pound for pound comparison) actually, most, if not all, of the feed for cattle comes from the same acrage used for growing food for humans, including parts of the wheat plant that we humans cannot eat.

How much of the modern meat supply is from cattle ranchers grazing cattle in the wild?actually, alot. there are alot of trees and 'wild growth' in the ranches in Hawaii. They're fenced off more to prevent the cattle from wandering than to keep intruders out.

Indeed, that's also called biologically raised or ecological meat. The polution and ecological problems wich are caused by meat eating according to lots of veggie's, aren't caused by meat eating at all. They're caused by the bio-industry, that polution comes from all the transports and the ecological problems (mostly) from the food wich is fed to those animals, wich is mainly soy and grains. Now if you eat "normal" meat, e.a from animals raised in a natural and close to your own home envoriment, who don't eat that food from that soy and grains (wich are mostly grown in cut down rainforests) but just grass those problems are solved. The only problem is, still a large part of our meat consumption is not from that "normal" meat, but from bio-industry meat. And thát's the cause of the enviromental problems: the bio-industry, not meat eating.

And thát's the cause of the enviromental problems: the bio-industry, not meat eating.

Actually bio-industry meat is better for the environment than "biological meat". Per kg of meat produced that is.
It just is not that nice for the animals.

I'm a vegetarian, but it's kind of misleading since I won't touch vegetables.
My sister-in-law is a vegetarian (because she feels sorry for the animals), so, anytime I eat with my brother's family, I always order the biggest steak/burger/pork bbq plate on the menu, and then tell her that I'm just trying to balance the universe.
I do the exact same thing when someone tells me they turn off lights to fight global warming. I have 8 on right now.

The point is that *you* consider this an extreme example which cannot compare. Quite a few people on this planet however actually do consider the issue of animal rights to be this or even more important. That you consider that silly of them does not change their opinion. Nor does it make them feel amused by statements like "for every animal you will not eat I eat three", just like others are not amused by statements like "for every ****** you do not enslave, I will enslave and rape three" - especially if they know you actually will do it.

and if they want to discuss thats fine, so long as they respect others rights to disagree, these disagreements compromised in legislation, if you do not like it then change the law. The vegetarian preacher in my above example shows up points fingers and name calls. He is not here for a discussion and he should expect to be heckled which is what he is trying to do to everyone else present.

Like wise the Peta people who throw red paint at people in fur, they tend to avoid people like me in leather jackets but thats mostly because we are more likely to beat them up and take their wallet to pay for our dry cleaning. throwing red paint on people is assault yes most people don't want to press charges, but the answer of throwing ground beef in return on said assailants is okay(answering assault with assault).

also it is not *me* who decides molesting a child is extreme and unacceptable it is society using laws.
Likewise it is not *me* who decides eating meat is acceptable it is again society.

Actually bio-industry meat is better for the environment than "biological meat". Per kg of meat produced that is.
It just is not that nice for the animals.
Also counted transport costs for the meat itself, transport for the food they eat (since they can't graze) and the loss of rainforest for the huge soy farms required to make the food? Sure, the bio-industry may raise more kg. of meat per, per whatever anyway, but there is more then that.

Also counted transport costs for the meat itself, transport for the food they eat (since they can't graze) and the loss of rainforest for the huge soy farms required to make the food?

Absolutely. Bioindustry farms can process waste far more efficiently (everything is closely packed), can use mass volume transport and so on. Large scale is a benefit where the environment is concerned.

But, as said, it comes at a price.

actually, most, if not all, of the feed for cattle comes from the same acrage used for growing food for humans, including parts of the wheat plant that we humans cannot eat.

Really? I worked at a leading Hay and Grain manufacturing facility in the US for a few months. The raw materials (Alfalfa and Timothy Hay mainly and many other types of grass) are coming in from somewhere and not dropping out of the sky.....I am not that smart but I am guessing that people are growing this and harvesting this (just like how they would do for a food crop). :p

I know the company shipped hay to Hawaii also. So at least some of the beef in Hawaii comes from land that was used to raise hay instead of raising food crops suitable for humans directly.


actually, alot. there are alot of trees and 'wild growth' in the ranches in Hawaii. They're fenced off more to prevent the cattle from wandering than to keep intruders out.

see above. And Hawaii's population is insignificant in statistical terms.

All I can say is that with the amount of trucks that come in bringing the hay grown, if it was wheat or rice or something directly edible...it would feed a heck of a lot more people.

Really? I worked at a leading Hay and Grain manufacturing facility in the US for a few months. The raw materials (Alfalfa and Timothy Hay mainly and many other types of grass) are coming in from somewhere and not dropping out of the sky.....I am not that smart but I am guessing that people are growing this and harvesting this (just like how they would do for a food crop). :p

I know the company shipped hay to Hawaii also. So at least some of the beef in Hawaii comes from land that was used to raise hay instead of raising food crops suitable for humans directly.

All I can say is that with the amount of trucks that come in bringing the hay grown, if it was wheat or rice or something directly edible...it would feed a heck of a lot more people.

And... food crops are produced as they are by supply and demand. you take all those workers growing Hay and make them grow food crops then the next year crop prices will be so low farmers will be driven out of business. The Us goverment pays farmers not to grow crops in order to keep crop prices high(in order that we don't overwhelm and swamp world markets). right now there was a drop in production do to crop failures in Asia and Australia and the current raise in price is simply the market trying to reach equilibrium.

I don't think the "meat is inefficient" argument is all that controversial. From Wikipedia:

Environmental vegetarianism is based on the belief that the production of meat and animal products for mass consumption, especially through factory farming, is environmentally unsustainable or otherwise harmful. Recent research strongly supports these concerns. According to a 2006 United Nations initiative, the livestock industry is one of the largest contributors to environmental degradation worldwide, and modern practices of raising animals for food contributes on a "massive scale" to air and water pollution, land degradation, climate change, and loss of biodiversity. The initiative concluded that "the livestock sector emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global."[114]

In addition, animal agriculture has been pointed out as one of the largest sources of greenhouse gases — responsible for 18 percent of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions as measured in CO2 equivalents. By comparison, all transportation emits 13.5 percent of the CO2. Animal farming produces 65 percent of human-related nitrous oxide (which has 296 times the global warming potential of CO2) and 37 percent of all human-induced methane (which is 23 times as warming as CO2). It is also accused of generating 64 percent of the ammonia, which contributes to acid rain and acidification of ecosystems[citation needed] The habitat for wildlife provided by large industrial monoculture farms is very poor, and modern industrial agriculture has been considered a threat to biodiversity compared with farming practices such as organic farming, permaculture, arable, pastoral, and rainfed agriculture.

Animals fed on grain, and those that rely on grazing need far more water than grain crops.[115] According to the USDA, growing the crops necessary to feed farmed animals requires nearly half of the United States' water supply and 80 percent of its agricultural land. Additionally, animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90 percent of the soy crop, 80 percent of the corn crop, and a total of 70 percent of its grain.[116]

When tracking food animal production from the feed trough to consumption, the inefficiencies of meat, milk and egg production range from 4:1 up to 54:1 energy input to protein output ratio. As it was published, "U.S. could feed 800 million people with grain that livestock eat, Cornell ecologist advises animal scientists; Future water and energy shortages predicted to change face of American agriculture."[117] To produce animal based food seems to be, according to these studies, typically much less efficient than the harvesting of grains, vegetables, legumes, seeds and fruits. Exception is made of animals that are grazed rather than fed, especially those grazed on land that could not be used for other purposes.

According to the theory of trophic dynamics, it requires 10 times as many crops to feed animals being bred for meat production as it would to feed the same number of people on a vegetarian diet. Currently, 70 percent of all the wheat, corn, and other grain produced is fed to farmed animals.[118] This has led many proponents of vegetarianism to believe that it is ecologically irresponsible to consume meat. It must also be noted that the benefits of rearing grazing animals is often beneficial, as observed Food Climate Research Network at Surrey University, which reports that 'A little bit of livestock production is probably a good thing for the environment'[119] It also noted that "no amount of vegetarian or vegan eating" will reduce the impact as much as "Flying time, petrol spend and energy bills".

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism#Environmental)

For sure, some forms of livestock production are more productive than others but there is little doubt that even the best methods require several times more land, energy and water than equivalent plant crops.

I would like to reiterate something I've said before. Vegetarianism is not perfect. Yes, land is still required. Yes, wildlife etc will still be affected. But, it's an enormous improvement over livestock production. The point is to improve the world.

I've been looking at this for quite some time and have found myself sufficiently swayed by the environmental and economic views to actually have a shift to a vegetarian diet (madness I know but I seem a tad water obsessed these days)

but I was wondering how you achieve this when products such as pork pies exist and also how many of NSG have caught this fad? just post anything you feel is on topic for the next page at least...


poll to come (and also as seen a lack of any real argument to continue to eat meat but I could be swayed I guess)

Water obsessed? Do explain.

What fad are you talking about exactly? Vegetarianism isn't a neccesarily a fad.

And, if you actually care about being vegetarian, a pork pie isn't going to sway you.

Also, of course there is evidence to continue to eat meat! Meat provides protein and important vitamins and minerals, especially iron.

if you read my post, I mentioned Bunnies and Deer being made homeless, not beef. Two reasons to deforest a region is 1) home and 2) farmland.

Most of the... er... confrontational vegetarians I've met always try to put the evils of eating meat on the suffering of the animals while totally ignoring that the food they eat are grown from land taken from wild animals and the growning foods are kept from wild animals (ever seen a farmer allow rabbits, deer and other foraging wildlife free access to their fields?)

thus wild animals are being forced out of the area, into smaller and smaller regions that cannot support them with food and shelter. yet they seem to think that's ok to do to the wild animals who only want to forage in the areas that they once called 'home'.

and two, I've never seen any cattle rancher go through his feild to 'weed' it. :p
I did read your post. My point is that growing crops is a far more efficient use of land than raising the farm animals usually bred for human consumption, e.g. cattle. Cattle farms in the Amazon rainforest, for example, are set up on deforested land, just like soy farms in the same area. The difference is that more food per area unit is produced from the soy farms. Therefore, if the agricultural meat industry (that is, the meat industry that uses farms, not hunting or fishing) didn't exist, humans would still encroach on wild habitats, but less because not as much land would be needed for food production. Thus I have adopted vegetarianism as a "lesser evil", if you will.

Water obsessed? Do explain.

What fad are you talking about exactly? Vegetarianism isn't a neccesarily a fad.

And, if you actually care about being vegetarian, a pork pie isn't going to sway you.

Also, of course there is evidence to continue to eat meat! Meat provides protein and important vitamins and minerals, especially iron.

the big one is vitamin B-12 as it is impossible to get B-12 from plant matter.
the traditional Indian vegetarian way is to eat fruits and vegetables tainted with animal feces. vegetarians such as rabbits blur the line by eating plants with insect infestations (eat both plant and insect). Also it is sneaky B12 supplies can last for years in the liver after the vegetarian diet is started.

the big one is vitamin B-12 as it is impossible to get B-12 from plant matter.
the traditional Indian vegetarian way is to eat fruits and vegetables tainted with animal feces. vegetarians such as rabbits blur the line by eating plants with insect infestations (eat both plant and insect). Also it is sneaky B12 supplies can last for years in the liver after the vegetarian diet is started.

Most Hindu's are lacto-vegetarians in which case they will get enough B 12 from dairy products. It is strict vegans who will have problems.

Water obsessed? Do explain.

Fresh water supplies are running dangerously low for the ever growing human population and water is rather important to me

course naturally the average salad is hardly any better but still (http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-real-cost-of-a-bag-of-salad-you-pay-99p-africa-pays-50-litres-of-fresh-water-476030.html)

What fad are you talking about exactly? Vegetarianism isn't a neccesarily a fad.

however it is a phase people go through

And, if you actually care about being vegetarian, a pork pie isn't going to sway you.

get off the high chair, I'm giving something up and I'm going to miss all the foods I can't eat

Also, of course there is evidence to continue to eat meat! Meat provides protein and important vitamins and minerals, especially iron.

which can be done if I keep: eggs, cheese, milk, tofu, nuts etc etc

Really? I worked at a leading Hay and Grain manufacturing facility in the US for a few months. The raw materials (Alfalfa and Timothy Hay mainly and many other types of grass) are coming in from somewhere and not dropping out of the sky.....I am not that smart but I am guessing that people are growing this and harvesting this (just like how they would do for a food crop). :p

I know the company shipped hay to Hawaii also. So at least some of the beef in Hawaii comes from land that was used to raise hay instead of raising food crops suitable for humans directly.I stand corrected. :cool:

I did read your post. My point is that growing crops is a far more efficient use of land than raising the farm animals usually bred for human consumption, e.g. cattle. Cattle farms in the Amazon rainforest, for example, are set up on deforested land, just like soy farms in the same area. The difference is that more food per area unit is produced from the soy farms. Therefore, if the agricultural meat industry (that is, the meat industry that uses farms, not hunting or fishing) didn't exist, humans would still encroach on wild habitats, but less because not as much land would be needed for food production. Thus I have adopted vegetarianism as a "lesser evil", if you will.
again, two points.
1) you have your reasons for making the choices you made. you don't need to justify it to me.
2) I was talking about those millitant vegetarians that make eating meat the end all be all. not the 'lesser of two evils'. they talk about how the Meat Industry is evil yet seem to forget that most of what they protest is also being done by farmlands growing veggies.

Most Hindu's are lacto-vegetarians in which case they will get enough B 12 from dairy products. It is strict vegans who will have problems.

Many Lacto-Vegetarians still have these issue because it is diffcult to get enough milk to support both your protein and B12 needs, if you are particularly active. Also it defeats the ecological argument since now your raising cows and goats for milk instead of meat creating all the same issues.

Yeah Veganism is just silly any diet that naturally you must eat unwashed vegetables to get B12 from the dirt or eat food that has been contaminated with animal feces to get the b12 from fecal matter seems a bit unnatural and disgusting.

the big one is vitamin B-12 as it is impossible to get B-12 from plant matter...

B12 is present in fermented food products such as miso, real soy sauce and tempeh. Not a fan of the first two, I eat tempeh every day. Even so blood tests have revealed my B12 levels are too low. I now take supplements daily. It's a price I'm willing to pay for my principles.

B12 is present in fermented food products such as miso, real soy sauce and tempeh. Not a fan of the first two, I eat tempeh every day. Even so blood tests have revealed my B12 levels are too low. I now take supplements daily. It's a price I'm willing to pay for my principles.
There is a reason those levels were too low: we're not a herbivoric species. Fact is, meat is a part of our natural diet and that's for a reason. What do principles have to do with it? Sure, not supporting the meat-industry is good since that causes a lot of enviromental troubles and polution, but that has nóthing to do with meat eating by itself. That's what I see very very often, people who speak like they think that meat eating and the meat industry is the same damned thing, wich is obviously bullcrap.

B12 is present in fermented food products such as miso, real soy sauce and tempeh. Not a fan of the first two, I eat tempeh every day. Even so blood tests have revealed my B12 levels are too low. I now take supplements daily. It's a price I'm willing to pay for my principles.

Your very lucky.
those do not contain Vitamin B-12 they contain Pseudo-B-12 or B12 analogues, which will cause a positive test result for B-12 (both in the person and when testing the food itself). All recent studies have show those food are not a source of B-12. from the vegetarian society of American.


the only reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs. There has been considerable research into possible plant food sources of B12. Fermented soya products, seaweeds and algae have all been proposed as possible sources of B12. However, analysis of fermented soya products, including tempeh, miso, shoyu and tamari, found no significant B12.

Spirulina, an algae available as a dietary supplement in tablet form, and nori, a seaweed, have both appeared to contain significant amounts of B12 after analysis. However, it is thought that this is due to the presence of compounds structurally similar to B12, known as B12 analogues. These cannot be utilised to satisfy dietary needs. Assay methods used to detect B12 are unable to differentiate between B12 and it's analogues, Analysis of possible B12 sources may give false positive results due to the presence of these analogues.

Researchers have suggested that supposed B12 supplements such as spirulina may in fact increase the risk of B12 deficiency disease, as the B12 analogues can compete with B12 and inhibit metabolism.

The current nutritional consensus is that no plant foods can be relied on as a safe source of vitamin B12.


http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

The real danger is if you had test as having sufficient B-12 in which case you could have been diagnosed with a folic acid deficiency, Folic acid will make the physical symptoms of of B-12 deficiency disappear but neurological damage will continue.

If society collapses it will become impossible to get those supplements making a vegan lifestyle only possible while this society exist.

which can be done if I keep: eggs, cheese, milk, tofu, nuts etc etc

Animal products harm animals to an extent as well.

Animal products harm animals to an extent as well.

so does almost everything else we do

*stops moving*

Animal products harm animals to an extent as well.

you need eggs, cheese, and milk to get vitamin B-12 with out meat, or artificial chemical production of B-12.

My belief is that in all things... moderation.

My belief is that in all things... moderation.

you my friend will live a happy and healthy life.

There is a reason those levels were too low: we're not a herbivoric species. Fact is, meat is a part of our natural diet and that's for a reason. What do principles have to do with it? Sure, not supporting the meat-industry is good since that causes a lot of enviromental troubles and polution, but that has nóthing to do with meat eating by itself. That's what I see very very often, people who speak like they think that meat eating and the meat industry is the same damned thing, wich is obviously bullcrap.

I agree we are not an herbivorous species. But we can choose not to eat meat. There are costs involved - for me it's a B12 deficiency.

There are other reasons also why I don't eat meat. If you care to, please read my original post in this thread here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13663661&postcount=69).

Your very lucky.
those do not contain Vitamin B-12 they contain Pseudo-B-12 or B12 analogues, which will cause a positive test result for B-12 (both in the person and when testing the food itself). All recent studies have show those food are not a source of B-12. from the vegetarian society of American.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

The real danger is if you had test as having sufficient B-12 in which case you could have been diagnosed with a folic acid deficiency, Folic acid will make the physical symptoms of of B-12 deficiency disappear but neurological damage will continue.

If society collapses it will become impossible to get those supplements making a vegan lifestyle only possible while this society exist.

I also take folic acid in addition to the B12. My doctor is also a vegetarian so is aware of the issues.

Whether a product like miso or tempeh has B12 may depend on the fermenting process. Presumably it comes from the bacteria.

My belief is that in all things... moderation.

Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain): Water in moderation never did anyone any harm.

William Blake: The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.

I agree we are not an herbivorous species. But we can choose not to eat meat. There are costs involved - for me it's a B12 deficiency.

There are other reasons also why I don't eat meat. If you care to, please read my original post in this thread here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13663661&postcount=69).



I also take folic acid in addition to the B12. My doctor is also a vegetarian so is aware of the issues.

Whether a product like miso or tempeh has B12 may depend on the fermenting process. Presumably it comes from the bacteria.


Miso, Soy sauce, and tempeh are not sources of B12 ( they have other B vitamins) but not B-12.
they were all thought to have B-12 until about 5 years ago, so your doctor may being using out dated information.

Also on supplements avoid spirulina it was thought to have B-12 until rather recently. instead it has a compound similar to B-12 that will black absorption of real B-12 and make B-12 deficiency occur faster.

naturally occurring B-12 comes form bacteria yes but not from bacteria used in fermentation of miso, soy sauce, or Tempeh. The only natural source of the bacteria is in the lower intestines of animals, humans have have them as well but they are too far down the digestive tract for us to absorb.
which is why a traditional vegan diet in India, Iran, and elsewhere calls for eating unwashed vegetables from fields fertilized with manure.

the reason consensus of dietitians only changed recently is that it takes several years for B-12 deficiency to show up in a adult once they stop intake of B12 normally 3 to 20 years depending on body chemistry.

There is a reason those levels were too low: we're not a herbivoric species. Fact is, meat is a part of our natural diet and that's for a reason. What do principles have to do with it? Sure, not supporting the meat-industry is good since that causes a lot of enviromental troubles and polution, but that has nóthing to do with meat eating by itself. That's what I see very very often, people who speak like they think that meat eating and the meat industry is the same damned thing, wich is obviously bullcrap.

Well, guess what? We're a very aggressive species as well, not only inter-specie but also and perhaps most of all intra-species. Does that mean we should live our aggressions out to the full? Or should we rather try and control them as best we can, in order to have a more peaceful and productive life?

If someone does not want to eat animals, why try and force them? There is no need for it any more these days, with the amount of different vegetarian products available as well as supplements. So what's the point?

I haven't read through the replies in this thread, but I'd be interested to hear why species is a rational divider re. what may (justly) be killed and eaten (I'd advise people to steer well clear of any 'argument' from kinship, as you'd be treading ground that history has proven repulsive).

I am vegetarian, as I have yet to hear a convincing argument as to why it is acceptable to be otherwise.



And I do hope you (any who seek to reply) are better educated - or at least endowed with the intelligence not to attempt - an 'argument from nature' on your computer, via the internet.

Well, guess what? We're a very aggressive species as well, not only inter-specie but also and perhaps most of all intra-species. Does that mean we should live our aggressions out to the full? Or should we rather try and control them as best we can, in order to have a more peaceful and productive life?

If someone does not want to eat animals, why try and force them? There is no need for it any more these days, with the amount of different vegetarian products available as well as supplements. So what's the point?
Don't worry, we already do.
Anyway, why bother diverging from our healthy natural diet? Really, we have that diet for a reason. It's how our planet works, it's our place in the food web, it's our ecological role. I do not understand what anyone would have against that, is it some kind of superiority feeling? I really don't understand.

Animal products harm animals to an extent as well.

too bad I'm a vegetarian for enviromental reasons...not that I've ever seen a chicken protest me taking its eggs

Don't worry, we already do.
Anyway, why bother diverging from our healthy natural diet? Really, we have that diet for a reason. It's how our planet works, it's our place in the food web, it's our ecological role. I do not understand what anyone would have against that, is it some kind of superiority feeling? I really don't understand.

thats odd you see I remember something about large scale farming, cities and peanut butter cupcakes!

not to mention how I fail to see nature accommodate 6,602,224,175+ humans in any sort of food web