NationStates Jolt Archive

I wonder, if the Yugoslavs would know that the Kosovars would be so troublesome in the 90's, would they still have protected them from the Nazis? Yugoslavia and the USSR were the only two countries to liberate themselves, unlike England which ran far far away at Dunkirk, you call it a miracle, I'll state that it was a panicky and pathetic retreat. Too bad Wellington and Blutcher weren't around just when you needed them.Blücher? He was German (Prussian at the time) you know...

as far as I know states of Poland and Czech Republic (neighbour states) STILL want to cooperate with USA with their system of anti Iran (and strange but I have heard it is against North Korea too) defence.

They can't do much worse.

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=europe&c=russia

Here's the 2006 Report

http://hrw.org/englishwr2k7/docs/2007/01/11/russia14838.htm

Here's the Amnesty International Report on Russia

http://www.amnestyusa.org/By_Country/Russian_Federation/page.do?id=1011228&n1=3&n2=30&n3=978

Perhaps this one, where the Russians are openly using evidence gained in torture in a trial.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/02/01/russia17968.htm

And what sort of war do you think Bush wants to start here? He's not the one who made the Kosovars vote for independence, they did that all on their own. I mean, what does he gain by starting a war in this region?

It don't matter what type of war. It only matter the Bush and Americans like to go around starting wars and carving up other countries and adducting people for torture.

It's Amnesty International, a highly respected and well recognized organization, likely a typo was made.




You obviously missed the point of the article. These guys were not arrested whilst in combat, and a substantial portion of the evidence against them is through the statements that they signed after the abuse and torture.

None of the people in Guantanamo were captured on the battle field. They were "renditioned" off the streets of Europe, Asia, and the middle east and taken to Guantanamo and other places and tortured until the told the Americans what the Americans wanted to hear.

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." <snip>

useless American scrap paper is only valid on US territory.

I agree. The best way to punish the Albanians and reunite Kosovo with Serbia would be to cut off all heating oil and all other trades. While they are at it, Russia should cut off oil to all Western nations that support Bush's Kosovo.

This post is neither pro Albanian nor anti Serb. This is an observation of a greater Albania in population. Well post the area later, cant right now.

Kosovo Statistical Office.
Albania Cia World Factbook.

2006 population of kosovo 2,126,708 rounded to 2,127,000

Births 34,187 - deaths 7419 - growth 26708 roundeed to 27,000
Kosovo Statistical Office.

2006 - 2,127,000
growth. - 27,000
2007. -2,154,000


Albanians 92 % -- 1,981,680
Serbs 05.30 % ------114,162
others 02.70 %-------58,158
Kosovo Estimated.-2,154,000


Cia World Factbook Albania 2007 3,600,523 - rounded to 3,601,000

Ethnic groups:
Albanian 95%, Greek 3%, other 2% (Vlach, Roma (Gypsy), Serb, Macedonian.
note: in 1989, other estimates of the Greek population ranged from 1% (official Albanian statistics) to 12% (from a Greek organization)

Albanians 95 % --- 3,420,950
Greeks 03 % ---------108,030
Others 02 % ----------72,020
Albania Estimated.-3,601,000


Greater Albania 2007 pop

Kosovo. 2,154,000 - 37.43 %
Albania 3,601,000 - 62.57 %
Greater 5,755,000

Albanians 5,402,630 - 93.88 %
Serbs 114,162 - 01.98 %
Others 58,158 - 01.01 %
Others 72,020 - 01.25 % -

Others 01.25 % including small Serb ethnic group.

I love math, history, geography, accounting, bookkeeping, politics, economics, statistics, current events, jolt.co.uk public forums am a copy holic.

None of the people in Guantanamo were captured on the battle field. They were "renditioned" off the streets of Europe, Asia, and the middle east and taken to Guantanamo and other places and tortured until the told the Americans what the Americans wanted to hear.

Exactly. We're not trying to defend the U.S. actions, just saying that if you're pointing fingers, you're going to have to use more than just one.

It don't matter what type of war. It only matter the Bush and Americans like to go around starting wars and carving up other countries and adducting people for torture.

Carving up other countries? *dies of laughter*

Guess what? Britain and France have been doing that for a hell of a long time!

Tell me...what country have we carved up?

useless American scrap paper is only valid on US territory.

Its not valid anyway has it has no legal standing.

I agree. The best way to punish the Albanians and reunite Kosovo with Serbia would be to cut off all heating oil and all other trades. While they are at it, Russia should cut off oil to all Western nations that support Bush's Kosovo.

Bush's Kosovo? Wow aren't you an idiot. Bush did not tell Kosovo to declare Independence. And you really want to see international instability don't you?

Bush's Kosovo? Wow aren't you an idiot. Bush did not tell Kosovo to declare Independence. And you really want to see international instability don't you?
Kosovo is closer to being an EU puppet (whit it isn't) than an American one.

Oh Kosovo, right. Didn't all those Albanians just migrate there at the end of the 1800's?
No, they've been there since before the Serbs, before the Romans for that matter. Serbs were a majority for a while in medieval times, but began leaving the area after their great defeats there in the 14th century, and never controlled the area again until 1912.

тешко нама ,још тежа времена долазе ,албанаца је све више а нас је све
мање ускоро ћемо нестати ако хитно не предузмемо нешто драстично па ма шта то било...
Албанци су поткупили стране политичаре новцима од дроге ,проституције и криминала,тако да их бране и крше и уједињење нације и бомбардују независну земљу и међународно право и етнички чисте сваку територију од Срба где год се појаве,а нас називају вандалима...
има стара народна-кадија те тужи ,кадија ти суди,вратило се најгоре ,турско време...
али добро ,ако други крше резолуције и кумановски споразум онда више он не важи ни за Србију и све се враћа у претходно стање,

Србија ће се вратити на косово када када јој то буде одговарало!

и тако испоштовати кумановски споразум до краја посебно његову одредницу о враћању војске и полиције у одметнуту провинцију...

тешко нама ,још тежа времена долазе ,албанаца је све више а нас је све
мање ускоро ћемо нестати ако хитно не предузмемо нешто драстично па ма шта то било...
Албанци су поткупили стране политичаре новцима од дроге ,проституције и криминала,тако да их бране и крше и уједињење нације и бомбардују независну земљу и међународно право и етнички чисте сваку територију од Срба где год се појаве,а нас називају вандалима...
има стара народна-кадија те тужи ,кадија ти суди,вратило се најгоре ,турско време...
али добро ,ако други крше резолуције и кумановски споразум онда више он не важи ни за Србију и све се враћа у претходно стање,

Србија ће се вратити на косово када када јој то буде одговарало!

и тако испоштовати кумановски споразум до краја посебно његову одредницу о враћању војске и полиције у одметнуту провинцију...Yes, I fully concur that Serbia should be handed over to Kosovo.

тешко нама ,још тежа времена долазе ,албанаца је све више а нас је све
мање ускоро ћемо нестати ако хитно не предузмемо нешто драстично па ма шта то било...
Албанци су поткупили стране политичаре новцима од дроге ,проституције и криминала,тако да их бране и крше и уједињење нације и бомбардују независну земљу и међународно право и етнички чисте сваку територију од Срба где год се појаве,а нас називају вандалима...
има стара народна-кадија те тужи ,кадија ти суди,вратило се најгоре ,турско време...
али добро ,ако други крше резолуције и кумановски споразум онда више он не важи ни за Србију и све се враћа у претходно стање,

Србија ће се вратити на косово када када јој то буде одговарало!

и тако испоштовати кумановски споразум до краја посебно његову одредницу о враћању војске и полиције у одметнуту провинцију...
Well, quite.

I can't make out much of it but it seems to be "Albanians are all just prostitutes and bandits anyway, and that's why Serbia had to crack down on the province, and who are you to interfere?"

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7248446.stm)

About time I say. The Kosovan people have been through enough of a struggle.

Stupid decision on Bush's part for recognizing them.

Everyone who was in power with Milosevic is now gone. The last thing we need is to foment even more sectarian strife.

I can't make out much of it but it seems to be "Albanians are all just prostitutes and bandits anyway, and that's why Serbia had to crack down on the province, and who are you to interfere?"

Ah a serbian Ultra-Nationalist who doesn't have a English Keyboard. Theres a bit of good luck, although it will be annoying if he keeps on posting.

тешко нама ,још тежа времена долазе ,албанаца је све више а нас је све
мање ускоро ћемо нестати ако хитно не предузмемо нешто драстично па ма шта то било...
Албанци су поткупили стране политичаре новцима од дроге ,проституције и криминала,тако да их бране и крше и уједињење нације и бомбардују независну земљу и међународно право и етнички чисте сваку територију од Срба где год се појаве,а нас називају вандалима...
има стара народна-кадија те тужи ,кадија ти суди,вратило се најгоре ,турско време...
али добро ,ако други крше резолуције и кумановски споразум онда више он не важи ни за Србију и све се враћа у претходно стање,

Србија ће се вратити на косово када када јој то буде одговарало!

и тако испоштовати кумановски споразум до краја посебно његову одредницу о враћању војске и полиције у одметнуту провинцију...

I guess that's one way of putting it.

The next few months are going to be crucial to answer that question Mad. If they keep it civil then it's going to be hard to convince the world they're out to start another war. What needs to happen are the rioting by the Serbs to be stopped but how is a big question. It could either be done brutally and incite a full fledged war [again] or cooler heads could prevail.

тешко нама ,још тежа времена долазе ,албанаца је све више а нас је све
мање ускоро ћемо нестати ако хитно не предузмемо нешто драстично па ма шта то било...
Албанци су поткупили стране политичаре новцима од дроге ,проституције и криминала,тако да их бране и крше и уједињење нације и бомбардују независну земљу и међународно право и етнички чисте сваку територију од Срба где год се појаве,а нас називају вандалима...
има стара народна-кадија те тужи ,кадија ти суди,вратило се најгоре ,турско време...
али добро ,ако други крше резолуције и кумановски споразум онда више он не важи ни за Србију и све се враћа у претходно стање,

Србија ће се вратити на косово када када јој то буде одговарало!

и тако испоштовати кумановски споразум до краја посебно његову одредницу о враћању војске и полиције у одметнуту провинцију...
At the risk of sounding ignorant what does this mean? (based on previous responses it supports Kosovo's independance)
other than that.
Other countries who recognise Kosovo's independance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo).
In no particular order include:
USA, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Australia, Turkey, Greenland, Denmark, also more willing to support Kosovo but not decided yet lots of other smaller countries.
Countries which no not recognise Kosovo's independance are:
Russia, Argentina, Spain, Romania, smaller countries which surround Kosovo, also a fair number of others which are uncertain.

That map seems to be a good indicator of the current relations between countries across the world, those of English speaking and some of Europe show a similar response to one another, whereas the opposite appears to be the old Soviet Block of coutries.
I wonder what will happen next?

Albania 10,908 sq kilos 4,212 sq miles

Kosovo 10,908 sq kilos 4,212 sq miles 28.47 %
albania 27,398 sq kilos 10,578 sq miles 71.53 %
Sq kilos 38,306 sq kilos 14,790 sq miles
I give up. I can never get the figures to line up correctly, no matter what I try. I dont know how to work these controls. And I dont know anyone that knows. That can teach me step by step. That is what its going to take. Oh well I try.

Greater Albania

Sources Statistical office of Kosovo.
Sources Cia World Factbook.


This post is neither pro Albanian nor anti Serb. This is an observation of a greater Albania in population.

Kosovo Statistical Office.
Albania Cia World Factbook.

2006 population of kosovo 2,126,708 rounded to 2,127,000

Births 34,187 - deaths 7419 - growth 26708 roundeed to 27,000
Kosovo Statistical Office.

2006 - 2,127,000
growth. - 27,000
2007. -2,154,000


Albanians 92 % -- 1,981,680
Serbs 05.30 % ------114,162
others 02.70 %-------58,158
Kosovo Estimated.-2,154,000


Cia World Factbook Albania 2007 3,600,523 - rounded to 3,601,000

Ethnic groups:
Albanian 95%, Greek 3%, other 2% (Vlach, Roma (Gypsy), Serb, Macedonian.
note: in 1989, other estimates of the Greek population ranged from 1% (official Albanian statistics) to 12% (from a Greek organization)

Albanians 95 % --- 3,420,950
Greeks 03 % ---------108,030
Others 02 % ----------72,020
Albania Estimated.-3,601,000


Greater Albania 2007 pop

Kosovo. 2,154,000 - 37.43 %
Albania 3,601,000 - 62.57 %
Greater 5,755,000

Albanians 5,402,630 - 93.88 %
Serbs 114,162 - 01.98 %
Others 58,158 - 01.01 %
Others 72,020 - 01.25 % -

Others 01.25 % including small Serb ethnic group.

I love math, history, geography, accounting, bookkeeping, politics, economics, statistics, current events, jolt.co.uk public forums, I am a copy holic.

At the risk of sounding ignorant what does this mean? (based on previous responses it supports Kosovo's independance)
other than that.
Other countries who recognise Kosovo's independance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo).
In no particular order include:
USA, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Australia, Turkey, Greenland, Denmark, also more willing to support Kosovo but not decided yet lots of other smaller countries.
Countries which no not recognise Kosovo's independance are:
Russia, Argentina, Spain, Romania, smaller countries which surround Kosovo, also a fair number of others which are uncertain.

That map seems to be a good indicator of the current relations between countries across the world, those of English speaking and some of Europe show a similar response to one another, whereas the opposite appears to be the old Soviet Block of coutries.
I wonder what will happen next?
The majority of Arab nations and countries in Africa and Latin America, such as Venezuela and Bolivia, are refusing to recognize Kosovo.
There are only like 12 to 24 countries out of a world of over 180 nations that have recognized Kosovo as a seperate state.

It's mainly the well developed english countries like the US, Australia, Canada, and the filthy rich west European states like UK, France, Italy and Germany (who incidentally also happen to belong to the club of former imperlialist powers) who are carving apart Serbia.
The rest of the world, which has felt the abuse of European imperialim, is actually opposed to Kosovo.

Bush's Kosovo? Wow aren't you an idiot. Bush did not tell Kosovo to declare Independence. And you really want to see international instability don't you?

yes he did. He promised to use American troops to wipe the Serbs off the planet if they opposed Kosovo independence.

Bush and Americans=warmongers

Kosovo is closer to being an EU puppet (whit it isn't) than an American one.

Considering that the European Parliament makes the law in Kosovo, instead of the Kosovo so called parliament.
Considering that the head of KFOR has announced he has the right to fire the elected President and elected legislators of Kosovo's so called indendent national government.

You are right to say that Kosovo is now a colony of the European Empire. The Europeans lied to the Kosovars. They not a seperate country, they've been annexed into France and Germany and Italy who now claim right to dictate affairs in Kosovo.

The majority of Arab nations and countries in Africa and Latin America, such as Venezuela and Bolivia, are refusing to recognize Kosovo.

According to the link below, this is actually inaccurate. Only 20 nations have explicitly stated they would not recognize the independence of Kosovo.

There are only like 12 to 24 countries out of a world of over 180 nations that have recognized Kosovo as a seperate state.

Nineteen actually along with the IOC and the OIC. As to those

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence

The rest of the world, which has felt the abuse of European imperialim, is actually opposed to Kosovo.

Um yea...care to actually back that one up?

yes he did. He promised to use American troops to wipe the Serbs off the planet if they opposed Kosovo independence.

Prove it!

According to the link below, this is actually inaccurate. Only 20 nations have explicitly stated they would not recognize the independence of Kosovo.



Nineteen actually along with the IOC and the OIC. As to those

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence



Um yea...care to actually back that one up?


Look at your link:

Countries supporting Kosovo independence: about 25 including those who have not done so yet
Countries opposed to Kosovo: 26 including: Ukraine and most of the balkans surprisingly. Not to mention the vast majority of latin America.
Other nations who have thus far not recognized Kosovo: 21 including Canada and the Netherlands.
other nations who have no position on Kosovo and who thus have refused to recognize it, at least for the moment: 60

THe majority is opposed to Kosovo by defacto.

Look at your link:

Countries supporting Kosovo independence: about 25 including those who have not done so yet
Countries opposed to Kosovo: 26 including: Ukraine and most of the balkans surprisingly. Not to mention the vast majority of latin America.
Other nations who have thus far not recognized Kosovo: 21 including Canada and the Netherlands.
other nations who have no position on Kosovo and who thus have refused to recognize it, at least for the moment: 60

THe majority is opposed to Kosovo by defacto.

Students? This specimen here is what we call ignorance. Normally achieved to those who do not understand how something works. In the realm of International Affairs, the majority of the countries want to see a resolution on the matter while a few countries (most notably Russia) want to stonewall such resolution.

Listen up son, and listen good. Just because a nation does not immediately recognize the independence of another nation, does not mean they are opposed to it. If you bothered following the God damn news reports, you would see that most nations are taking a wait and see while others want further negotiations. That is by no means being against Kosovo independence. Only 20 nations have explicitly stated they will not ever recognize Kosovo Independence and that is indeed true.

Students? This specimen here is what we call ignorance. Normally achieved to those who do not understand how something works. In the realm of International Affairs, the majority of the countries want to see a resolution on the matter while a few countries (most notably Russia) want to stonewall such resolution.

Listen up son, and listen good. Just because a nation does not immediately recognize the independence of another nation, does not mean they are opposed to it. If you bothered following the God damn news reports, you would see that most nations are taking a wait and see while others want further negotiations. That is by no means being against Kosovo independence. Only 20 nations have explicitly stated they will not ever recognize Kosovo Independence and that is indeed true.

And as you stated earlier, only 19 have explicitly said they would recognize Kosovo. 20 versus 19. Do the math. Which number is higher?

Not to mention the vast majority of latin America.
*sighs*

Is there anywhere Latin America won't recognise?

And as you stated earlier, only 19 have explicitly said they would recognize Kosovo. 20 versus 19. Do the math. Which number is higher?

Duh!! 19...

Anyway I support Kosovo independence but this will increase tension in that region but I don't think it will "Encourage Muslim extremists" as I've heard some people say...

And as you stated earlier, only 19 have explicitly said they would recognize Kosovo. 20 versus 19. Do the math. Which number is higher?

Well actually, now the number that have recognized already is 21, and the number that is in the proccess of recognizing is 13, so all together that makes for a 34-for vs. 20-against.

Pretty clear-cut majority in favor of recognizing, if I do say so myself.

It seems that the Kosovar Serbs (and other non-Albanians) will be able to enjoy what their cousins in Krajina did, at the hands of another Western vassal. The West hasn't really cared about them before, and with the Albanians taking up more sovereignty they'll hardly be able to do anything if the Albanians continue to treat their minorities in the usual fashion.


Hold it.

The Krajina Serbs were nothing but a pathetic attempt by Milosevic to justify ethnic clensing and genocide carried out on Croatians. Im glad that artificial "Republic" carved out of Croatian lands was steam rolled.

Sorry for getting off topic, this set me off as I was reading this thread.


Oh, and Croatia is hardly "Another" western vassal. Well, they were allied with the west, because the Serbs were banging on their door like a drunken lout. So I suppose you can call every nation the jumped up radical Serbs invade is a "Western" affiliated nation.

And as you stated earlier, only 19 have explicitly said they would recognize Kosovo. 20 versus 19. Do the math. Which number is higher?

You are looking at the small picture. Nineteen (proper grammer as it starts a sentence) is current and others are pending. I guess you failed reading comprehension.

Well actually, now the number that have recognized already is 21, and the number that is in the proccess of recognizing is 13, so all together that makes for a 34-for vs. 20-against.

What nation just recognized them?

EDIT: Switzerland and Austria apparently recognized them yesterday. YAY. Macedonia is coming up in a few weeks if wiki is anything to go by.

Pretty clear-cut majority in favor of recognizing, if I do say so myself.

Here here. To bad they will never get a seat at the United Nations. :(

*sighs*

Is there anywhere Latin America won't recognise?

No country in Latin America ever recognized Katanga, Rhodesia, Cabinda, Somaliland, Puntland, Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, South Ossetia, Transnistria, Bophuthatswana, Ciskei, Transkei, Venda, Kurdistan, or East Timor (when it first declared independence in 1975, that is).

So, in answer to your question: Yes. ;)

This whole thing is evil german plot to punish the serbs for siding against Germany in World War II.

That Albanians have always been German lackies. Now the Americans and Brits are German lackies too.

Fortunately, Russia now backs the rightful independence of the Kosovar Serbs and of the Bosnian Serbs. Why? To stop German expansionism.

http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=4873.3149.0.0

This whole thing is evil german plot to punish the serbs for siding against Germany in World War II.

That Albanians have always been German lackies. Now the Americans and Brits are German lackies too.

Fortunately, Russia now backs the rightful independence of the Kosovar Serbs and of the Bosnian Serbs. Why? To stop German expansionism.

http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=4873.3149.0.0

My sarcasm meter is having trouble registering. :confused:

You refer to wikipedia yet wikipedia says this:

"Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence is disputed by Serbia, Russia, Spain, Cyprus, Romania and other nations, and other nations, notably China, India, Brazil, Greece and Israel, have expressed concern at the unilateral move"

The majority of the world, contrary to claims of NATO, does not and will not recognize Kosovo.

"As of 27 February 2008, 171 of the 192 United Nations member states have yet to recognize Kosovo as a sovereign state"

yet somehow we are expected to believe the 36 out of 192 constitutes a super majority.

Yes many countries have not yet taken a position, yet the official policy of these unaligned states is that "Kosovo is a Serbian province".

That is the position of everyone except the US and its West European allies.

There are no countries in Africa that have recognized Kosovo. Even the Saudi government has said they will not recognize Kosovo because it violates international law. Yes Iraq recognize Kosovo, but it is worth to point out that Iraq, like Afghanistan which also recognized Kosovo, is under US/European military occupation and having their people butchered by Americans.

China has declared Kosovo an illegal state propped up by imperialist powers of the west.

This whole thing is evil german plot to punish the serbs for siding against Germany in World War II.

where would I be without the Internet? probably not running around in a farmers field during a thunderstorm with a tin foil hat on 3 times a week :p

why on Earth would the German people hold such burning hatred for 60+ years?! and what makes you think the German people could be so fussy when its not chocolate?

You refer to wikipedia yet wikipedia says this:

"Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence is disputed by Serbia, Russia, Spain, Cyprus, Romania and other nations, and other nations, notably China, India, Brazil, Greece and Israel, have expressed concern at the unilateral move"
That's nice, but means very little.

The majority of the world, contrary to claims of NATO, does not and will not recognize Kosovo.
There are more countries recognising or planning to recognise Kosovo than refusing to recognise Kosovo. The majority of the world's states are ambiguous, neutral or will wait for further negoiations.

"As of 27 February 2008, 171 of the 192 United Nations member states have yet to recognize Kosovo as a sovereign state"

yet somehow we are expected to believe the 36 out of 192 constitutes a super majority.
Point being?

Yes many countries have not yet taken a position, yet the official policy of these unaligned states is that "Kosovo is a Serbian province".
Prove it. When a country adopts an ambiguous or neutral position, it means just that, not that they see Kosovo is a Serbian province.

That is the position of everyone except the US and its West European allies.
Yeah, because if the West does it, it's got to be wrong!

There are no countries in Africa that have recognized Kosovo. Even the Saudi government has said they will not recognize Kosovo because it violates international law. Yes Iraq recognize Kosovo, but it is worth to point out that Iraq, like Afghanistan which also recognized Kosovo, is under US/European military occupation and having their people butchered by Americans.
And I assume every other country that recognises Kosovo is somehow under American imperialism?

China has declared Kosovo an illegal state propped up by imperialist powers of the west.
They say the same thing about Taiwan.

This whole thing is evil german plot to punish the serbs for siding against Germany in World War II.

That Albanians have always been German lackies. Now the Americans and Brits are German lackies too.

Fortunately, Russia now backs the rightful independence of the Kosovar Serbs and of the Bosnian Serbs. Why? To stop German expansionism.

http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=4873.3149.0.0
WTF?

This whole thing is evil german plot to punish the serbs for siding against Germany in World War II.

That Albanians have always been German lackies. Now the Americans and Brits are German lackies too.

Fortunately, Russia now backs the rightful independence of the Kosovar Serbs and of the Bosnian Serbs. Why? To stop German expansionism.

http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=4873.3149.0.0

Sarcasm?

This whole thing is evil german plot to punish the serbs for siding against Germany in World War II.

That Albanians have always been German lackies. Now the Americans and Brits are German lackies too.

Fortunately, Russia now backs the rightful independence of the Kosovar Serbs and of the Bosnian Serbs. Why? To stop German expansionism.

http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=4873.3149.0.0That's the stupidest collection of shit I've read this day...

Clearly you haven't been in a Norfolk town today.

China is against anything that isn't their Empire.

See Tibet and India.

You refer to wikipedia yet wikipedia says this:

"Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence is disputed by Serbia, Russia, Spain, Cyprus, Romania and other nations, and other nations, notably China, India, Brazil, Greece and Israel, have expressed concern at the unilateral move"

The majority of the world, contrary to claims of NATO, does not and will not recognize Kosovo.

"As of 27 February 2008, 171 of the 192 United Nations member states have yet to recognize Kosovo as a sovereign state"

yet somehow we are expected to believe the 36 out of 192 constitutes a super majority.

Yes many countries have not yet taken a position, yet the official policy of these unaligned states is that "Kosovo is a Serbian province".

That is the position of everyone except the US and its West European allies.

There are no countries in Africa that have recognized Kosovo. Even the Saudi government has said they will not recognize Kosovo because it violates international law. Yes Iraq recognize Kosovo, but it is worth to point out that Iraq, like Afghanistan which also recognized Kosovo, is under US/European military occupation and having their people butchered by Americans.

China has declared Kosovo an illegal state propped up by imperialist powers of the west.



Ahem..........neutral or ambigious means......neutral or ambigious. Not "They will not recognize them." Sorry. Fail. Still a majority who favor regocnizing them versus those who explicitly say they won't

"As of 27 February 2008, 171 of the 192 United Nations member states have yet to recognize Kosovo as a sovereign state"Funny you should mention that, because I could swear there are sovereign nations that are not UN member states out there.

Why don't we let the Serbs decide what to do with their own? Is there anyone from Kosovo or Serbia on SNG that can shed some light into what they actually think; surveys, polls, articles, or analysts' points of view aside?:confused:

Why don't we let the Serbs decide what to do with their own? Is there anyone from Kosovo or Serbia on SNG that can shed some light into what they actually think; surveys, polls, articles, or analysts' points of view aside?:confused:
This is from a different forum I'm on, posted by one of the members that's a Serb living in Belgrade:
It's very complicated. Note that my opinion is much less conservative than of average Serb.

Well, to not beat around the bush, Serbia is now screwed-up country with recent history stained by genocide. Whether this genocide issue is as black/white as is often presented, is a long story, but that's where we are. Serbia had a 10y long rulership of tyranical government and nation has often payed for sins of that government, as if the having such government wasn't a punishment enough. On the other hand, the only European country that is more screwed up than Serbia right now, is Albania, a country that has been isolated from entire world for a long reign of communist tyrany. It's a nation with percent of educated people and standard of life even lower than Serbian and a nation with open teritorrial pretensions to neighbouring countries. Literally every country that Albania borders with has had problems with Albanian minority organizing into some form or terrorist guerilla.

My opinion is that Kosovo problem is a big fabrication of Slobodan Milosevic he created around 1990 to gain popularity based on fueling national-chauvisinm and scaring people with national enemy. Milosevic used Albanians from Kosovo who were always leaning on violent separatism (there were terroristic acts known even before 1990), he convinced Serbs that Kosovo is not only an integral part of territory but also heart and soul of Serbia - based on one historical battle that occured there in XIV century and on a lot of monasteries placed there. On the other hand, before 1990, Albanians were a minority there, nowadays they are largely a majority, and also on couple of occasions, Milosevic sent military with task to fuel the conflict there, so it's certain that his politics helped Albanians effectively take over Kosovo.

Now, there are strong arguements both for and against secession:

First, against secession:

-It's never easy to have a part of your country removed. Heck it's never easy to see borgers of your country changed in anyway, Serbia is a small country and Kosovo is, they say, 15% of it's entire territory. On the other hand, we've seen borders changed at least five times in last twenty years, so this is just another one. People are scared that Serbia will gradually get smaller and smaller and that other parts of Serbia with minorities will follow with secession, but I think that that's very much uninformed and paranoid idea.

-It somehow seems unfair that a terroristic group can slowly take over a piece of land in the course of twenty years, while the whole world watches unaffected. It's largely a result of Milosevic's politics, true, and Milosevic isolated Serbia from most of foreign influences. However, it's also true that Albanian organisations seized the oportunity since they desired secession much before Milosevic.

-There's that arguement that Kosovo is particularly important for Serbian culture and spirituality, which I don't buy into. I seem to clearly remember how this myth has been fabricated during 90ies, and how it was burned into Serb's brain by means of Orwellian media. I personally don't feel any spiritual attachment to that area, I've been there once, and wasn't even impressed. Spirit of Serbia is where Serbs are, and right now there's more spirit of Serbia in Canada than in Kosovo. Sadly it's this kind of elusive arguements that Serbian politicians repeat the most.

-I don't agree with your comment about how they "gathered strength" to declare independence. You gotta pay in mind that their means of "gathering strength" was guerilla terrorism allegedly financed by albanian drug lords. One of things I've learned in 90ies is that the idea of "what nation wants" is one very easily abused. Lots of times this supposed opinion of people is formed by agressive propaganda and other times, politicians are acting on their own accord without regarding what people actually think. For instance, Kosovo Albanians are being constantly frightened by prospects of genocide like the one that happened in 1998/99. While this fear is understandable, it is also notable that no government after Milosevic has ever been violent. Also they're being told that, since Serbia has low life standard, their standard is going to grow as soon as they separate - I don't think I need to explain how flawed this logic is.
Like many such political events, this isn't about what people want either - it's about interests of a group of people on top.

-Albanians are very vocal about pretensions to other territories too, parts of Macedonia, Greece, Montenegro, and southern parts of Serbia where they're still a small minority. There's a fear that separation of Kosovo might incourage terrorism on these other areas too.

On the other hand, here are cons:

-Milosevic indeed had military troups commit genocide there in 1998 and 1999. He was pretty much fueling the situation all through 90ies because it was one of mechanisms to keep him on top all those years.

-There are also hystorical facts from early 90ies that somewhat reflect these, when Yugoslavia (basically Serbia) didn't want to admit the secession of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia, which led to two bloody wars. Serbia has less than honorable history regarding war crimes, which effectively ruins it's credibility in such situations.

-While it is 15% of territory, it is no more than a couple thousands of non-albanians, all set in southern part of Kosovo. The rest, Albanian citizenship, doesn't want to be a part of Serbia, doesn't respect Serbian institutions, etc.
If 15% of citizenship of Serbia are Albanians, then all major institutions in Serbia, including government and military, have to have 15% of Albanians. Now, I don't want to sound like stereotyping entire nation because I certainly don't think that average Albanian is any different from average member of any nation - but Albanians aren't willing to constructively participate in Serbian institutions right now. It is certain that they would use this 15% to undermine work of these institution, since what they really want is secession.

-Secession of Kosovo is, I strongly believe, a good thing for Serbia in other ways too. First of all, border with Albania is very much open, and as Albania is a stop for various chains of drug-smuggling, white slavery, moslem terrorists like the ones that set the bomb in Madrid subway a couple of years ago, if Serbia was to, say, be accepted to EU (fat chance), these criminal chains would be open from middle east through Albania, Kosovo, Serbia, smach right to the middle of Europe.
Also, we effectively don't have control over that part of territory. UN troups are there, not Serbian army. Without Kosovo, Serbia is a country with definite border, that controls it's entire territory. With Kosovo, it will never be. Ever.

-Country borders change all the time. Hundred years ago, Vojvodina, northern part of Serbia, belonged to Hungarian empire, so what. It's a little mentioned fact that Kosovo was actually joined with Serbia in seventies. But then that was not a big deal because all of it was Yugoslavia.

-Pretty much everything in Serbia has stopped in waiting for Kosovo problem to be resolved. Politicians aren't working on weak economy, unemployment, corruption, they're all about Kosovo for years now. It's very symptomatic that there are riots in largest Serbian cities right now, and none of politicians actually mentioned this in any of their statements. People are seriously fed up with that. I am very much certain, from my communication with ordinary people, that majority of Serbs aren't very keen on defending Kosovo. We're tired of the whole situation, and we're tired of living with some sort of crises hanging around our necks, and we really want the whole thing to end, even at our loss, so that we can get on with our lives. I stand behind the statement (and official polls do too) that Serbian politicians have no support from people in this. Unfortunately, all politicians have the same views regarding Kosovo, so on last elections I had to choose between several candidates who all were "defending Kosovo".

-This is the most important arguement: Kosovo actually isn't Serbian for eight years now. As you know, Serbia was bombed in 1999 and this bombing ended when Milosevic finally signed everything they asked him to. The agreement he signed included all Serbian institutions retreating from Kosovo and UN institutions coming to it's place. So for eight years now, Serbia has absolutely no control over Kosovo, and if it wants to be independent, we have no means to stop that. Unfortunately, Milosevic twisted the facts and presented this as his diplomatic victory, lying about details of the agreement and saying that UN troups are brought there to work for us.
This all became clear when Milosevic went down, and why current politicians didn't just deal with the inevitable facts and admit that Kosovo isn't Serbian back then, is beyond my knowing.

Right now as you know, it's somewhat dangerous here since groups of huligans (not unexpectedly footbal fans) have been trashing around in three largest Serbian towns. Rather impotent anger, too bad they don't realise it. As you know, there idiots demolished at least three mcDonalds restaurants, all while there were people (Serbian) in there. Larger protests are scheduled for Thursday, I sure won't be going for a walk on that day.
This will calm down eventually. What scared me more is that prime minister Kostunica has recalled Serbian ambasador from USA today. He is a politician who started as moderate right, and over the years slowly grew into a very extreme nationalist. His actions right now strongly mirror Milosevic's decisions from 1992, and we all know how that ended. It seems like none of less extreme politicians have the strength to stop him. So needless to say I'm terrified by what might come out of this.

If Serbian government had any brain in their heads, they would act practically now: on far north of Kosovo, there is still a Serbian majority, and they are people whose lives are endangered right now. Government should think about either secession of that Serbian part from Kosovo on the same grounds as secession of Kosovo was done, or some other way to protect these people. The other thing to protect is Serbian cultural heritage including many monasteries, which can be protected only if we cooperate with them. There are little communities of Serbs scattered all over the Kosovo, and they should be evacuated since Kosovo government can not guarantee (nor cares to) safety to these people - they were mostly pions used by Serbs to support claims that there's still Serbs in Kosovo. If our government continues to ignore the situation and deny everything, these people might we wiped out soon.

Issue is kind of emotional for me, because, as you know, I come from Bosnia. Situation of Serbs in Bosnia somewhat reflect that of Albanians in Kosovo, being that we also lean toward secession from Bosnia and merging with Serbia. Important differences are that Serbs make around 1/3 of Bosnia, and that Serbs in Bosnia aren't into terrorist activities, nor are actually doing anything actively toward secession, but have rather dealt with the fact that we're now Bosnia citizens and that's it. I have always felt that Serbia completely neglects Serbs from Bosnia, remembering them only when they can use them for political propaganda. I can't remember many occasions when Serbia stood by Bosnian Serbs in defending their rights. For instance my citizenship status is very fuzzy because dual citizenship issue hasn't been properly resolves between Serbia and Bosnia. Being that there's such large population of Serbs in Bosnia, issues such as this should be resolved and eased.
Nope, all that time, Serbian government spent defending Kosovo, which has less than 1% Serbs than there are in Bosnia. All time and resources go to defending Kosovo, meanwhile I can't even get proper dual citizenship status!

This is from a different forum I'm on, posted by one of the members that's a Serb living in Belgrade:

I at least think my country, Spain, shouldn't get involved in the conflict nor have a say in the matter of wether it would or wouldn't recognize Kosovo's sovereingty or not because, although we have similar circumstances with parts of the country which want to become independent, my government has no idea about what's truly going on in the region nor our circumstances are the same.

Funny you should mention that, because I could swear there are sovereign nations that are not UN member states out there.

Taiwan and Kosovo aren't among them. They are provinces of China and Serbia respectively.

Taiwan and Kosovo aren't among them. They are provinces of China and Serbia respectively.They are both, in point of fact, sovereign. China and Serbia have claims, which they are not capable of enforcing at this time.

They are both, in point of fact, sovereign. China and Serbia have claims, which they are not capable of enforcing at this time.

China can move against Taiwan terrorists at any time. Americans should not get involved when this happens unless they wish to see Los Angeles or San Francisco turned into radiation dumps.

Classic example of European/American hypocrisy:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL2885864820080228

Azeris committ much more genocide against Armenians in Nagorno than was committed against Albanians in Kosovo. Armenians free themselves from Azeri oppression but west refuse to let them have their own country.

If Kosovo is free because of ethnic differences and genocide then Nagorno Karabak should also be free and independent of US ally Azerbaijan.

Taiwan and Kosovo aren't among them. They are provinces of China and Serbia respectively.

Twenty-three nations recognize Taiwan as a soveriegn nation. I wish the US was among them.

China can move against Taiwan terrorists at any time. Americans should not get involved when this happens unless they wish to see Los Angeles or San Francisco turned into radiation dumps.

Um...if that ever occured, China would also become a radiological dump as well. As such, I doubt China would use nukes.

And we are obligated to step in if China does anything against Taiwan. As is Japan.

And we are obligated to step in if China does anything against Taiwan.

No, we're not.

No, we're not.
I believe that in fact, we are.

No, we're not.

Yes we are. As is Japan.

"to maintain the capacity of the United States to resist any resort to force or other forms of coercion that would jeopardize the security, or the social or economic system, of the people on Taiwan."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Relations_Act

In 2005, a defense pact was signed with Japan to protect Taiwan from attack from China.

USA is obliged to take part in all conflicts all around the world, when their economical or political interests could be in danger, when they fight for "democracy" and "Western values" etc; when UN is likely to give them permission months or years later, when it could be said that it is in reality not USA but NATO, EU, UN or someone else AND in ALL other cases.

Kosovo is not independent, it's gone from Serbian domination to the status of a NATO/EU client state, practically it's entire economy is owned by Western firms and the only decent employment is working for the occupation forces.

China can move against Taiwan terrorists at any time. Americans should not get involved when this happens unless they wish to see Los Angeles or San Francisco turned into radiation dumps.

If that happened then China would be one giant radiation dump.

You piss me off with your user name, as you are anti-american. You should delete that nation and start a new one.

Taiwan and Kosovo aren't among them. They are provinces of China and Serbia respectively.Where'd I claim that? I'm merely pointing out that the Vatican and until recently Switzerland weren't UN members, despite being UN recognized sovereign states.

Kosovo is not independent,

Yes they are.

it's gone from Serbian domination to the status of a NATO/EU client state,

Proof?

practically it's entire economy is owned by Western firms and the only decent employment is working for the occupation forces.

Proof?

UPDATE:

Ireland has recognized the independence of Kosovo!

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/02/29/europe/EU-GEN-Ireland-Kosovo.php

This brings the total number 22 now.

UPDATE:

Ireland has recognized the independence of Kosovo!

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/02/29/europe/EU-GEN-Ireland-Kosovo.php

This brings the total number 22 now.

Kudos to Ireland for that, I guess.:p

Well, Ireland has become the 22th state to go against Serbian Constitution, international law, UN resolution 1244, agreement that only nations (NOT national minorities) have right to become indepedent etc.

I think that 22 countries should be sued before International Court. They are practically terrorists in "Western" disguise.

Well, Ireland has become the 22th state to go against Serbian Constitution, international law, UN resolution 1244, agreement that only nations (NOT national minorities) have right to become indepedent etc.Serbian constitution is largely irrelevant. Show me some argumentation that 1244 has indeed been violated (other than "Russia sez so >=P" ). And please link to the agreement you speak of, along with arguments that Kosovars are in fact a national minority as opposed to a nation.
I think that 22 countries should be sued before International Court. They are practically terrorists in "Western" disguise.Malaysia and Afghanistan are not Western. And interestingly enough, all 22 would have to consent to the trial before the ICJ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Resolution_1244

Reaffirm the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (i.e., Kosovo was to remain part of the FRY, to which Serbia is now the recognized successor state) and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2 of UNSCR 1244 (an annex that envisions, inter alia, a Kosovo status process);

Authorize the UN to facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status, its level and forms of autonomy (began in late 2005 under the auspices of UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari);

Afganistan is basically puppet government of NATO and USA. Without their direct intervention, it would fall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians (About half of Albanians live in Albania, with other large groups residing in Kosovo and the Republic of Macedonia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Albanians


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords
# III. Inviolability of frontiers
# IV. Territorial integrity of States
VIII. Equal rights and self-determination of peoples (because of consensus for former colonies and generally not for national minorities (only when it would be impossible to have acceptable position in their state (and they would have it with large autonomy that Serbia suggested )))

You also disrepect Constitution of your own state? When it was accepted, Kosovo was a part of Serbia, so they should respect it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Resolution_1244

Reaffirm the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (i.e., Kosovo was to remain part of the FRY, to which Serbia is now the recognized successor state) and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2 of UNSCR 1244 (an annex that envisions, inter alia, a Kosovo status process);

Authorize the UN to facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status, its level and forms of autonomy (began in late 2005 under the auspices of UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari);Note the "future status". That it can become independent isn't expressly ruled out anywhere, and is largely up to personal interpretatio of the "territorial integrity" of Serbia.

Afganistan is basically puppet government of NATO and USA. Without their direct intervention, it would fall.Still a sovereign nation able to make its own decisions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians (About half of Albanians live in Albania, with other large groups residing in Kosovo and the Republic of Macedonia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Albanians


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords
# III. Inviolability of frontiers
# IV. Territorial integrity of States
VIII. Equal rights and self-determination of peoples (because of consensus for former colonies and generally not for national minorities (only when it would be impossible to have acceptable position in their state (and they would have it with large autonomy that Serbia suggested )))"Large groups" is misleading when applied to Kosovo. Kosovo Albanians constitute 92% of the population.

You also disrepect Constitution of your own state? When it was accepted, Kosovo was a part of Serbia, so they should respect it.Except they declared independence, hence it would no longer apply. And conversely, I don't demand Poland return Silesia, Pommerania, and Prussia to Germany.

Note the "future status". That it can become independent isn't expressly ruled out anywhere, and is largely up to personal interpretatio of the "territorial integrity" of Serbia.

Still a sovereign nation able to make its own decisions.

"Large groups" is misleading when applied to Kosovo. Kosovo Albanians constitute 92% of the population.

Except they declared independence, hence it would no longer apply. And conversely, I don't demand Poland return Silesia, Pommerania, and Prussia to Germany.

But it is exactly stated that Kosovo was to remain part of the FRY, to which Serbia is now the recognized successor state and determine Kosovo's future status, its level and forms of autonomy.

It is nowhere explicitly stated that they even thought about their possible indepedence.

I would like to hear about someone for whom indepedence of Kosovo is not a breach of territorial integrity of Serbia.

About as sovereign as government of South Ossetia, Nothern Cyprus or SADR, right?

No right, as Germany lost in war of its own aggresion, so Germany was lucky that it was allowed even to exist (as 2 states) and maybe when Kosovo will be indepedent, you would like to give indepedence to Lusatia
(almost assimilated under 1000 years of germanization)

But it is exactly stated that Kosovo was to remain part of the FRY, to which Serbia is now the recognized successor state and determine Kosovo's future status, its level and forms of autonomy.

It is nowhere explicitly stated that they even thought about their possible indepedence.

I would like to hear about someone for whom indepedence of Kosovo is not a breach of territorial integrity of Serbia.Exactly: Reso 1244 is vague and doesn't explicitly rule out anything. Also, reread it. You'll find Serbia is NOT charged with deciding on Kosovo's final status, but the UN was. Part of the reason why Kosovo is not autonomous is because the Serbian government refused to accept the notion.
About as sovereign as government of South Ossetia, Nothern Cyprus or SADR, right?These are comparable to Afghanistan how exactly?
No right, as Germany lost in war of its own aggresion, so Germany was lucky that it was allowed even to exist (as 2 states)And funnily enough, the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTATION applies to Serbia, for its war of aggression against the Kosovars that it lost.
and maybe when Kosovo will be indepedent, you would like to give indepedence to Lusatia
(almost assimilated under 1000 years of germanization)Ha, I live in Lusatia. As if the Sorbians want independence and have had a military crackdown imposed on them recently to justify having their own country.

Exactly: Reso 1244 is vague and doesn't explicitly rule out anything. Also, reread it. You'll find Serbia is NOT charged with deciding on Kosovo's final status, but the UN was. Part of the reason why Kosovo is not autonomous is because the Serbian government refused to accept the notion.
These are comparable to Afghanistan how exactly?
And funnily enough, the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTATION applies to Serbia, for its war of aggression against the Kosovars that it lost.
Ha, I live in Lusatia. As if the Sorbians want independence and have had a military crackdown imposed on them recently to justify having their own country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_status_process

Belgrade's position on the status of Kosovo is that Kosovo should enjoy substantial autonomy, but not be granted independence. Occasionally dubbed "more than autonomy, less than independence," Belgrade's vision for Kosovo includes expanding autonomy in which Kosovo is largely free to govern itself, although Kosovo would not be permitted an independent role in international relations or defence and would remain nominally within the state of Serbia. The Serbian side has also proposed the One Country Two Systems formula, i.e. the "Hong Kong model" as a solution , but it was rejected by the Albanian politicians.

So, Serbia refused autonomy for Kosovo ? And UN decided ? I thought that Kosovo itself declared indepedence without any UN resolution that would approve of it.

They are puppet governments existing only because of armed support of other countries.

War of aggression led by NATO bombing civil buildings, Chinese Embassy, innocent people (in Kosovo too) just because they were too cowardly to fight on land directly in Kosovo. Well for Albanians payback to Serbs and other from 1999 they should be bombed too. Serbia had not lost war against terrorists from UCK, it lost against terrorists from NATO.


Well, not recently, but Germany refuses to give any degree of autonomy to Slav NATION that WAS brutally germanised in past, so if they have no chance to obtain their rights in Germany, they should be indepedent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Resolution_1244

Reaffirm the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (i.e., Kosovo was to remain part of the FRY, to which Serbia is now the recognized successor state) and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2 of UNSCR 1244 (an annex that envisions, inter alia, a Kosovo status process);

Authorize the UN to facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status, its level and forms of autonomy (began in late 2005 under the auspices of UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari);

Afganistan is basically puppet government of NATO and USA. Without their direct intervention, it would fall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians (About half of Albanians live in Albania, with other large groups residing in Kosovo and the Republic of Macedonia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Albanians


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords
# III. Inviolability of frontiers
# IV. Territorial integrity of States
VIII. Equal rights and self-determination of peoples (because of consensus for former colonies and generally not for national minorities (only when it would be impossible to have acceptable position in their state (and they would have it with large autonomy that Serbia suggested )))

You also disrepect Constitution of your own state? When it was accepted, Kosovo was a part of Serbia, so they should respect it.

Actually to digress, in the original Yugoslavia, talking about pre Melosovic Yugoslavia, Kosovo was actually a republic seperate from Serbia within the Yugoslave federation because Yugo's founder didn't trust the Serbs and so divided their territory by giving huges amounts of Serbia to Croatia and Bosnia. Deciding that was not enough, he carved away Kosovo from Serbia making into a seperate Republic within Yugoslavia. A seperate Republic which he intended to have the right of secession along with every other Republic in Yugoslavia.
Kosovo was reannexed into Serbia by some sort of executive order of Milosovic and it is questionable whether Slob. had the constitutional authority to do that whether at the federal level or even at the level of the Serb Constitution itself as written at the time.
As far as I know, there was never a popular vote, in either Serbia or kosovo, to reannex Kosovo into Serbia. Slob only did to increase his hold on power. If your dictator is going around annexing other states and causing wars in still others, and has secret police going around, you are much less likely to question or otherwise oppose him. Remember that Milo. was killing Serbs as well as Albanians and Croats.

As such, I begin to think that UN resolution 1244 may no longer apply because Serbia is not successor to Yugoslavia. Successor to Yugoslavia is Serbia, Montenegro and Kosovo. Not just Serbia.
Because Serbia is not Yugoslavia, 1244 may not apply.
Comparison of Serbia to Russia cannot apply. Because in Yugoslavia, all the republics were treated to be equal with equal rights under the Yugoslav constitution. Under Soviet constitution, Russia dominated other republics and could veto other republic's internal decisions. Serbia could not do that with the other Republics in Yugoslavia. Hence while Russia inherits the position of the USSR due to its actual dominance of the old Soviet Union, Serbia inherits nothing because it had no dominance in the Yugoslav system until Milosevic tried to turn multiethnic federal republic of Yugoslavia into a centralized Serb dominated Empire where all other Republics lost their rights.

But it is exactly stated that Kosovo was to remain part of the FRY, to which Serbia is now the recognized successor state and determine Kosovo's future status, its level and forms of autonomy.

It is nowhere explicitly stated that they even thought about their possible indepedence.

I would like to hear about someone for whom indepedence of Kosovo is not a breach of territorial integrity of Serbia.

About as sovereign as government of South Ossetia, Nothern Cyprus or SADR, right?

No right, as Germany lost in war of its own aggresion, so Germany was lucky that it was allowed even to exist (as 2 states) and maybe when Kosovo will be indepedent, you would like to give indepedence to Lusatia
(almost assimilated under 1000 years of germanization)

They're going by Serbian war of aggression against Croatia and Bosnia back in the 90's. Just as Germans were punished for Hitler's actions by losing a huge chunk of territory, they want to punish Serbs for Milosovic's actions by reducing Serbia to a city state.

Problem is that the time for that was in the 90's right at the end of the war, not ten or fifteen years later when neither the Serbs nor their government have done anything to warrant it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_status_process

Belgrade's position on the status of Kosovo is that Kosovo should enjoy substantial autonomy, but not be granted independence. Occasionally dubbed "more than autonomy, less than independence," Belgrade's vision for Kosovo includes expanding autonomy in which Kosovo is largely free to govern itself, although Kosovo would not be permitted an independent role in international relations or defence and would remain nominally within the state of Serbia. The Serbian side has also proposed the One Country Two Systems formula, i.e. the "Hong Kong model" as a solution , but it was rejected by the Albanian politicians.

So, Serbia refused autonomy for Kosovo ? And UN decided ? I thought that Kosovo itself declared indepedence without any UN resolution that would approve of it.

They are puppet governments existing only because of armed support of other countries.

War of aggression led by NATO bombing civil buildings, Chinese Embassy, innocent people (in Kosovo too) just because they were too cowardly to fight on land directly in Kosovo. Well for Albanians payback to Serbs and other from 1999 they should be bombed too. Serbia had not lost war against terrorists from UCK, it lost against terrorists from NATO.


Well, not recently, but Germany refuses to give any degree of autonomy to Slav NATION that WAS brutally germanised in past, so if they have no chance to obtain their rights in Germany, they should be indepedent.
Actually the two system proposal failed not because of opposition from a majority of kosovars but because of strong opposition from the United States and Germany who were hell bent on carving up a country which would not accept American/German domination.

Further evidence that Serbia is not the successor state to Yugoslavia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia

See in particular:

"The creation of the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro
In 2002, Serbia and Montenegro came to a new agreement regarding continued co-operation, which, among other changes, promised the end of the name Yugoslavia. From February 4, 2003, the federal parliament of Yugoslavia created a loose confederation - State Union of Serbia and Montenegro (similar to the system requested by Croatian and Slovenian communist parties shortly before the downfall of the previous Yugoslavia). A new Constitutional Charter was agreed to provide a framework for the governance of the country. The State Union had a parliament and an army. Podgorica, the capital city of Montenegro, became joint official capital alongside Belgrade; as Belgrade was the commercial capital, Podgorica held the position of being the judicial capital. It was agreed that for three years beginning in 2003, neither Serbia nor Montenegro would hold a referendum on the break-up of the union. The EU's high representative for Common Foreign and Security Policy Javier Solana said that he was happy with the agreement, because it stopped the disintegration progress in the former Yugoslav zone. However in 2006, Montenegrins voted in favour of independence, and the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro collapsed, with Serbia declaring itself an independent nation shortly afterward, ending the last remnants of a Yugoslavia"

Hence the successor state to Yugoslavia was The Union of Serbia and Montenegro, not the Republic of Serbia.

With the disintegration of the USM, it is debatable whether UN Resolution 1244 even apply as only Yugoslavia and its successor, the USM could be held to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia

first paragraph shows that before Milosevic, Kosovo was a Republic in its own right, seperate and equal to Serbia in the original Yugoslavia.

"In 1974, a new federal constitution was ratified that gave more autonomy to the individual republics, "

"One of the provisions of the new constitution was that each republic officially had the option to declare independence from the federation. The other more controversial measure was the internal division of Serbia, by creating two autonomous provinces within it, Kosovo, a largely ethnic Albanian populated region of Serbia, and Vojvodina, a region with large numbers of ethnic minorities behind the majority Serbs, such as Hungarians. These reforms satisfied most of the republics especially Croatia as well as the Albanians of Kosovo and the minorities of Vojvodina."

though, it says that Kosovo was made autonomous with Serbia rather than being a seperate Republic in its own right.

in event of 1244 still applying this link is educational as to how Europeans and Americans view UN resolutions and UN laws

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_sahara

The International Court of Justice ruled that Western Sahara had total right to be independent state. US and UK along with France and Germany joined with Morocco to deny this right because US and the Europeans had signed illegal treaties with Morocco for fishing and oil exploration rights inside West Sahara which is not a legit part of Morocco. Note that despite international laws, US is not demanding indepedence for Sahara though Saharans have a much greater right to it than do the Kosovars.

The biggest slap against the west which Russia and Serbia could do would be to recognize the independence of Western Sahara and threaten Morocco with military invasion if it does not withdraw its troops.

in event of 1244 still applying this link is educational as to how Europeans and Americans view UN resolutions and UN laws

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_sahara

The International Court of Justice ruled that Western Sahara had total right to be independent state. US and UK along with France and Germany joined with Morocco to deny this right because US and the Europeans had signed illegal treaties with Morocco for fishing and oil exploration rights inside West Sahara which is not a legit part of Morocco. Note that despite international laws, US is not demanding indepedence for Sahara though Saharans have a much greater right to it than do the Kosovars.

And who is going to enforce that? Should they be independent? Sure! Have they issued a Declaration of Independence though?

The biggest slap against the west which Russia and Serbia could do would be to recognize the independence of Western Sahara and threaten Morocco with military invasion if it does not withdraw its troops.

Russia does not have the capacity to do such. Serbia sure as hell does not have the capacity to do it either. Besides that, they would not get very far.

Checking on Sahara. WS was never a part of Morrocco so no Dec of Ind should be necessary as WS was actually granted independence by Spain before being illegally invaded and occupied by the American backed Moroccan regime.

on a side note, the page on wiki has been updated with Iraq now saying they are unlikely to recognize Kosovo as a seperate state. That kind of harms the puppet state theory for Iraq and Afghan recognizing Kosovo because of the US doing so.
On the other side, Mexico is leaning against recognition as is Venezuela which has no problems with seperatists but is antagonistic toward US.

Odd. Some nations who have said they will not recognize Kosovo are being included in the undecided camp. For example Israel. Israel issued a statement saying they will not recognize Kosovo but someone, apparently an American, edited the article to put Israel in the undecided camp.

The International Olympic Committee has issued a statement that it does not recognize Kosovo as a independent state and that this policy will not change until Kosovo is recognized as such by the United Nations General Assembly, an action that is very very unlikely so we will not be seeing a Kosovo team at the Olympics anytime this century.

And who is going to enforce that? Should they be independent? Sure! Have they issued a Declaration of Independence though?

Russia does not have the capacity to do such. Serbia sure as hell does not have the capacity to do it either. Besides that, they would not get very far.


And if Russia recognizes Western Sahara, you will do what to Russia again? Oh right, absolutely nothing. Russia has enough resources to be self-sufficient, got a great defensive army, got nukes, they can survive any boycotts and can't be invaded. Also, here's what I am wondering: how's Kosovo getting their energy? Russia provides energy for the EU via treaties. However when Kosovo declared Independence from Serbia and begged Halliburton to come in and save them (apparently someone's not paying attention how Halliburton's "saving" Iraq) it automatically cancelled any treaties that Russia has with Serbia. Since Russia doesn't recognize Kosovo, they aren't obliged to trade with it. So how exactly is Kosovo getting energy? The 2009 winter will be fun for Independent Kosovars. Watch for the Washington Post to claim that Putin told God to send a bitter winter.

On a sidenote there are three regions in Kosovo whose population is 90% Serbian. Why can't these regions declare independence from Kosovo? The hypocricy of Thaci is appalling. Then again can't expect much from a guerilla boii. Oh, I'm sorry, should I be saying Halliburton sponsored freedom fighter? Is there a difference?

Don't think so. The fact that Halliburton is involved proves that war is inevitable. Halliburton makes its money off of people suffering and being butchered whether by Americans or American inspired "insurgents".

It'll be like Iraq with the Serbs rising against the American puppets in Kosovo, creating their own version of the insurgency.

I'm sure the Serbs have their own version of Al Sadr somewhere in North Kosovo.

What will be America's reaction then? Bomb more homes and hospitals like it has in Iraq?

True but they won't be competing as a soverign state.

IE it is very unlikely their national anthem will be played whereas Serbia's will be.

And if Russia recognizes Western Sahara, you will do what to Russia again? Oh right, absolutely nothing. Russia has enough resources to be self-sufficient, got a great defensive army, got nukes, they can survive any boycotts and can't be invaded. Also, here's what I am wondering: how's Kosovo getting their energy? Russia provides energy for the EU via treaties. However when Kosovo declared Independence from Serbia and begged Halliburton to come in and save them (apparently someone's not paying attention how Halliburton's "saving" Iraq) it automatically cancelled any treaties that Russia has with Serbia. Since Russia doesn't recognize Kosovo, they aren't obliged to trade with it. So how exactly is Kosovo getting energy? The 2009 winter will be fun for Independent Kosovars. Watch for the Washington Post to claim that Putin told God to send a bitter winter.

On a sidenote there are three regions in Kosovo whose population is 90% Serbian. Why can't these regions declare independence from Kosovo? The hypocricy of Thaci is appalling. Then again can't expect much from a guerilla boii. Oh, I'm sorry, should I be saying Halliburton sponsored freedom fighter? Is there a difference?


#1: Russia has an economy smaller than Portugal. They can't do jack shit if they're boycotted. They would break down.
#2: In case you haven't noticed, there's a lot of smuggling going on in between Albania and Kosovo and Serbia.
#3: Are you a member of Nashi or something? You sound like the average Putinjend
#4: They can if they want to. Kosovo can't stop them. Hell, they're practically part of Serbia already.
#5: WTF is up with Halliburton? Why do you keep on mentioning them?


And a side note: USA, its like you had a personality change all of a sudden. I actually find myself agreeing with you. But as for the Olympic thing, it said that they would compete under the Olympic Flag, similar to Taiwan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IOC_country_codes

A list of countries participating in this years games in China. Neither Taiwan nor Kosovo are among them.

#1: Russia has an economy smaller than Portugal. They can't do jack shit if they're boycotted. They would break down.
#2: In case you haven't noticed, there's a lot of smuggling going on in between Albania and Kosovo and Serbia.
#3: Are you a member of Nashi or something? You sound like the average Putinjend
#4: They can if they want to. Kosovo can't stop them. Hell, they're practically part of Serbia already.
#5: WTF is up with Halliburton? Why do you keep on mentioning them?


And a side note: USA, its like you had a personality change all of a sudden. I actually find myself agreeing with you. But as for the Olympic thing, it said that they would compete under the Olympic Flag, similar to Taiwan.

With a name like USA I'm obligated to defend the least popular view which in this case is that Kosovo recognition by the US and Europe are wrong.

With a name like USA I'm obligated to defend the least popular view which in this case is that Kosovo recognition by the US and Europe are wrong.

Wait...so do you actually believe in the things you say/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IOC_country_codes

A list of countries participating in this years games in China. Neither Taiwan nor Kosovo are among them.

TPE [188] Chinese Taipei RCF (1960), TWN (1964–1968), ROC (1972–1976)

You lose!

edit:

and to drive that point home:

ROC Republic of China 1932–1976 Now Chinese Taipei

And the IOC already said that Kosovo was not going to be in this years games anyway.

On February 17, 2008, the IOC promised to recognize the Republic of Kosovo as a new independent nation. However, there seems to be a consensus that athletes from the newly formed republic will not be able to qualify for the Olympics in time to send a delegation to Beijing

With a name like USA I'm obligated to defend the least popular view which in this case is that Kosovo recognition by the US and Europe are wrong.

Which you have yet to prove.

Wait...so do you actually believe in the things you say/

Kosovo is actually complicated. Things there are actually being determined by 3 main outsider powers: USA, Germany, and Russia

Some of the nations in the wiki article on Kosovo wrongly list them as undecided when they have said they opposed recognizing Kosovo due to violation of international law for example Mexico has said no and Saudi Arabia has said no but the person who wrote the article, an American from the pro American slant of the article, has decided that since those two are US allies and they oppose Kosovo, it actually means maybe. Where I come from, No means No.

War is most likely result of Bush's actions there now. As much as the western world and the government of Kosovo (which is actually a US/German puppet government) want to deny it, the only way to avoid bloodshed is to let the northern part go. Otherwise, the US will have its second insurgency and the Germans will have their first anti German insurgency since the days of World War II.

The Italians only recognized Kosovo because they do what ever the three most powerful nations (UK, France, Germany) do. Italy is not exactly a major european power. It is more akin to Greece than it is to even approaching the UK's military ability.

Also, Romania and Ukraine has also expressed opposition. But because they did not issue an official policy the wiki article says they "said maybe". When actually they both said no.

Serbia has sent an urgent request to Russia for troops in accordance with their defense alliance because of Bush's recent hints that he might attack Serbia militarily over what happened to the US embassy and Russia's next President apparent has signaled he'll likely send troops to Serbia.

What we forget in all this talk though is that though US and Europeans recognize Kosovo and Kosovo claim to be totally independent of Serbia, Serbia still pays all of Kosovo's bills. If you are really independent of your parents who pays your bills? You or your parent?
Kosovars are still recieving regular weekly welfare checks from Belgrade. Not as reparations but because they are unemployed. The same welfare checks that people in Belgrade get.

But I think Kosovo is excuse for Bush/Putin to start new cold war. They have already been dividing the world between them. Iraq in US camp. Iran in Russia camp. Mexico in US camp. Venezuela in Russia camp. Djibouti and Liberia in US camp. South Africa, Nigeria, and Sudan in or moving toward Russia camp.

North Korea is in Russian camp while SK is in US side but there are many signs that SK may be preparing to jump ship.

That the PRC replaces the ROC in the Security Council makes no sense because the ROC, unlike the USSR, never ceased to exist. The ROC is Taiwan. It is the mainland which is in rebellion, not the island. So Taiwan should be on the Security Council, not the PRC.
But Nixon wanted to cuddle up to the old man in Beijing and had the ROC kicked out of the UN and off the Security Council. That the PRC is on the Security Council, is itself illegal violation of UN Charter.

Which you have yet to prove.

Have you not read the international laws which relate to the case?

UN Resolution 1244, which while it may be questionable if Serbia is actually the inheritor from Yugoslavia, nevertheless said that Kosovo was a nonseperable territory of Serbia within Yugoslavia.

Further, the UN Charter itself states no one has the right to go around carving up other countries just because they don't like those countries internal policies.

Some of the arguments in favor of forcefully making Kosovo a seperate nation are really something. If we really believed them, then we need to send troops back to Germany to reseperate east germany and make it independent again because like the Serbs, the German government engaged in mass genocide against a whole ethnic group.
Or we should send international troops to punish Americans by taking substantial parts of their homeland because of their governments' policies of genocide against native Americans and brutal oppression of blacks.
My point being that the US is punishing Serbia in the 21st century for something that Serbia did and was punished for in the 20th century.

When someone does something bad, you punish them at the time of the bad act, not a year later.
When Milosevic was genociding against Albanians in Kosovo, that was the time to make Kosovo a seperate country, not 10 to 15 years afterward, when the current government had nothing to do with happened in 1990's.

It's like saying that all white people in America should be punished today because white people in the 19th century abused blacks and indians and chinese and catholics.

#1: Russia has an economy smaller than Portugal. They can't do jack shit if they're boycotted. They would break down.
#2: In case you haven't noticed, there's a lot of smuggling going on in between Albania and Kosovo and Serbia.
#3: Are you a member of Nashi or something? You sound like the average Putinjend
#4: They can if they want to. Kosovo can't stop them. Hell, they're practically part of Serbia already.
#5: WTF is up with Halliburton? Why do you keep on mentioning them?


And a side note: USA, its like you had a personality change all of a sudden. I actually find myself agreeing with you. But as for the Olympic thing, it said that they would compete under the Olympic Flag, similar to Taiwan.

#1. The size of the economy doesn't matter. Russian economy, like Australian, is self-sufficient. If they are boycotted, the elite classes will take an economic hit, and that's about it. If you studied Russian History, you'd realize that when they were part of the Napoleonic Coalition, and boycotted Worldwide trade led by Britain as a result, the Russian economy benefited, while the rest of the European economies, even the French slumped.

#2. What does smuggling have to do with anything? There's smuggling going on between Mexico Southwestern US, should Mexico annex the Southwestern States, or should Northern Mexico declare independence? You fail with that argument.

#3. No, I'm not a member of Nashi, the organization Neocons (the same people that produced Iraq) demonize. However when the Estonian police brutally murders a Russian via police beating, riots are likely to result. Remember Rodney King? Now what if he was murdered? I think Nashi acted in a very organized manner as a result. It's not everyday you see Esti piggies murder someone and get congratulated on it by their Fascist Gov't.

#4. Kosovo can't, but why's NATO blockading Serbians from meeting other Serbians on Serbian territorry? Is it a crime to meet a relative nowadays? I get NATO presence in Pristina, but on those 3 Serbian controlled territories? And I actually feel bad for the soldiers, they're there because they were ordered to be, and they have people who hate the flag they're wearing on both sides. I remember a line from a song that some people really should learn: "Armchair generals often fail...and we've been poisoned by these fairy tales..."

#5. Because Halliburton was behind getting the US into Iraq and as a US citizen I pay my taxes. Halliburton also got the no-bid contract in Kosovo. Who pays them? The American taxpayer, me. As soon as they stop redistributing my tax dollars (that should be spent on education) I'll stop talking about them. Before Iraq, I didn't really care about them.

They need to stop tickling their Balkans (pun intended) before it gets Europe all sticky. :gundge:

Kosovo is actually complicated. Things there are actually being determined by 3 main outsider powers: USA, Germany, and Russia

Well Russia certainly. now prove that things rae being determined by the US and Germany please. I'm dying for proof.

Have you not read the international laws which relate to the case?

Have you been following the discussion on said International laws or are you pulling a CH move in regards to ignoring factual evidence against your case. I noticed you ignored my comment about the Olympics and Taiwan.

UN Resolution 1244, which while it may be questionable if Serbia is actually the inheritor from Yugoslavia, nevertheless said that Kosovo was a nonseperable territory of Serbia within Yugoslavia.

Funny thing is, 1244 was already talked about but I guess you ignored that discussion because it conflicts with your opinions.

Further, the UN Charter itself states no one has the right to go around carving up other countries just because they don't like those countries internal policies.

No one is carving up anything. Please remember that.

Some of the arguments in favor of forcefully making Kosovo a seperate nation are really something.

Forcefully? *dies of laughter* Last time I checked, troops are not using force to force Kosovo to be independent. The Kosovar Parliment did that all on their own.

If we really believed them, then we need to send troops back to Germany to reseperate east germany and make it independent again because like the Serbs, the German government engaged in mass genocide against a whole ethnic group.

Which was dealt with already. Failed history I see. I guess you forgot about those pesky trials at Nuremburg.

Or we should send international troops to punish Americans by taking substantial parts of their homeland because of their governments' policies of genocide against native Americans and brutal oppression of blacks.

Black oppression was dealt with in the Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement of the '60s further weakened the oppression. As to the genocide of Native Americans. Some was intentional, no doubt about that, but some of it was also accidental too.

My point being that the US is punishing Serbia in the 21st century for something that Serbia did and was punished for in the 20th century.

Um...I could say something but then again...it was already covered in this thread.

When someone does something bad, you punish them at the time of the bad act, not a year later.

Serbia was punished at the time. Kosovo did this on their own. You really cannot comprehend this can you?

When Milosevic was genociding against Albanians in Kosovo, that was the time to make Kosovo a seperate country, not 10 to 15 years afterward, when the current government had nothing to do with happened in 1990's.

They were already quasi independent to begin with after the 1999 war. You really failed history didn't you?

It's like saying that all white people in America should be punished today because white people in the 19th century abused blacks and indians and chinese and catholics.

There is a minority movement on that one. Luckily, they are the extreme minority.

2.UN resolution number-I-cannot-remember, anyway AFTER the war of 1999, says Kosovo belongs to Serbia.


Well, how many countries actually care what resolutions the UN passes?
After all, didn't the UN pass resolutions calling for Israel to halt settlement Construction in the West Bank, and withdraw from the occupied territories?

Look at the Cuban Embargo. How many countries actually obey it?

Look at the Cuban Embargo. How many countries actually obey it?

Um...only the US has an embargo as prescribed by federal law.

Um...only the US has an embargo as prescribed by federal law.

O yeah, I forgot that part. I meant to refer to the fact that the UN has tabled resolutions condemning the Embargo, which have obviously been ignored.

O yeah, I forgot that part. I meant to refer to the fact that the UN has tabled resolutions condemning the Embargo, which have obviously been ignored.

Trust the US to ignore a resolution that doesn´t set well with its agenda.;)

O yeah, I forgot that part. I meant to refer to the fact that the UN has tabled resolutions condemning the Embargo, which have obviously been ignored.

If a motion got tabled, that means no resolution was passed.

Trust the US to ignore a resolution that doesn´t set well with its agenda.;)
See this:If a motion got tabled, that means no resolution was passed.

See this:

I see.

I see.

That doesn't change the fact that if they had passed one we would have ignored it under the 'inspired' leadership of Dubya

That doesn't change the fact that if they had passed one we would have ignored it under the 'inspired' leadership of Dubya

Hehehe, most certainly.;)

That doesn't change the fact that if they had passed one we would have ignored it under the 'inspired' leadership of Dubya

Except for the fact that it would not have passed at all due to veto.

Except for the fact that it would not have passed at all due to veto.

True

Have you been following the discussion on said International laws or are you pulling a CH move in regards to ignoring factual evidence against your case. I noticed you ignored my comment about the Olympics and Taiwan.



Funny thing is, 1244 was already talked about but I guess you ignored that discussion because it conflicts with your opinions.



No one is carving up anything. Please remember that.



Forcefully? *dies of laughter* Last time I checked, troops are not using force to force Kosovo to be independent. The Kosovar Parliment did that all on their own.



Which was dealt with already. Failed history I see. I guess you forgot about those pesky trials at Nuremburg.



Black oppression was dealt with in the Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement of the '60s further weakened the oppression. As to the genocide of Native Americans. Some was intentional, no doubt about that, but some of it was also accidental too.



Um...I could say something but then again...it was already covered in this thread.



Serbia was punished at the time. Kosovo did this on their own. You really cannot comprehend this can you?



They were already quasi independent to begin with after the 1999 war. You really failed history didn't you?



There is a minority movement on that one. Luckily, they are the extreme minority.

1. Show where the Taiwanese flag is displayed, the Taiwan national anthem played or where it says that the Taiwanese are allowed to compete on behalf of Taiwan. You can't because the only way they can compete is as part of the general olympic team under the Olympic banner. The IOC does not recognize Taiwan.

2. Yes it was. But you seem to ignore the fact that 1244 explicitly stated that no one, not even NATO or their puppet regime in Pristina, had the right or authority to carve Kosovo out of Serbia. 1244 states quite clearly, "Kosovo is an inviolable part of the territory of Serbia within the Republic of Yugoslavia." Serbia may not be the successor to Yugoslavia but that does not change the irrefutable fact that the under the Yugoslav constitution, international treaties, and UN 1244 Kosovo was always a territory of Serbia, even when it was under UN administration. Just because someone else cleans up your front yard, it does not mean that your front yard now belongs to that person.

3. That is highly disputable in light of the fact that NATO troops, led by the French, have banned the Serbs from visiting their relatives.
Let us not forget that the US and Germany both said they were hell bent on Kosovo becoming independent even before the declaration of independence and that they told their puppets in Pristina that if Kosovo declares independence, Europe and the US will give them billions of dollars. But that if they chose to stay with Serbia, they would suffer unspecified "consequences".

4. See above. NATO immediately tried to ban Serb protests inside Kosovo and deployed to regional border to stop Serbs from visiting their relatives on opposite sides of the border. Read the news, they were arresting people for crossing the border. We're not talking police here, we talking fully armed combat soldiers pointing guns at children. Sounds like force is being use to me.

5. And you forget the trials that were held and are being held to punish Milosevic and his henchman. Again, you have not disproven the point of Serbia being placed in double jeopardy by being punished by Bush this century for something they did last century.

6. Some of it was intentional? LOL. The indesputable fact is that all of the race based oppression was intentional and no the civil war nor the civil rights act fully freed African Americans from oppression. They are still being oppressed as are the Native Americans.

7. Again Kosovo did not do this on their own. They were pushed by Bush and gang. The average Kosovars and Serbs wanted a compromise agreement. Serbia's government wanted compromise. Kosovo government probably would have accepted compromise if not for religious wackos who were given support by neocons in the Bush administration who did nothing but bash Serbia by doing things like broadcasting advertisements in Kosovo that something to the effect of "all Serbs are racists" and "the evil Serbs are planning a second genocide". Never mind the fact that no such planning was even taking place. Bush deliberately demonized the Serbs and the Serbian government by broadcasting deliberately false and misleading information. But when have they ever told the truth when it comes to foreign policy?

8. Go back and reread the ceasefire and 1244 again. Kosovo was not made quasi independent when the war ended. It remained part of Serbia in name but in practice was made a UN protectorate. A protectorate is no close to being an independent state. Not even close to quasi independent. What would have made Kosovo semi independent was that Hong Kong solution offered by Serbia.
Fact is that Kosovo is still not independent. Particularly when the German and French governments have declared themselves the new defacto owners of Kosovo by declaring that their people in the EU mission have the right to fire political leaders who have directly elected by the Kosovar people. This isn't about Kosovo being independent this about who is going to own and control it. If the US and EU really recognized Kosovo as a independent state, they would not insist on the right to fire elected leaders or on the power to overturn local laws or impose ones that are based on nonKosovo standards.

If a motion got tabled, that means no resolution was passed.

To my knowledge a motion has been tabled every year at the UN for the past 15 years, and is overwhelmingly approved (183-4), then vetoed by the USA.

1. Show where the Taiwanese flag is displayed, the Taiwan national anthem played or where it says that the Taiwanese are allowed to compete on behalf of Taiwan. You can't because the only way they can compete is as part of the general olympic team under the Olympic banner. The IOC does not recognize Taiwan.
standards.

As for Taiwan, as far as I know, they are permitted to compete in the olympic games under a neutral flag (designed for them by the IOC), and under the name "Chinese Taipei" rather than Taiwan, or Republic of China

It is in our interest to to good things for moderate Muslims in the world, so I support US recognition of Kosovo.

If a motion got tabled, that means no resolution was passed.
An unfortunate ambiguity in usage: in British parliamentary procedure, to "table" a motion means to propose it for discussion and a possible vote; while in American procedure, to "table" a motion is to kill it, ending all further consideration.

1. Show where the Taiwanese flag is displayed, the Taiwan national anthem played or where it says that the Taiwanese are allowed to compete on behalf of Taiwan. You can't because the only way they can compete is as part of the general olympic team under the Olympic banner. The IOC does not recognize Taiwan.

1) Taiwan is Chinese Taipie. Didn't you watch the Little League World Series @ Williamsport, PA USA? They used to dominate the competition. You also didn't bother to read your own god damn link.

This is straight from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic#Modern_Olympics


Also, since 1980, Taiwan has competed under the name "Chinese Taipei", and under a flag specially prepared by the IOC.

You have effectively lost the Olympic Debate.

2. Yes it was. But you seem to ignore the fact that 1244 explicitly stated that no one, not even NATO or their puppet regime in Pristina, had the right or authority to carve Kosovo out of Serbia. 1244 states quite clearly, "Kosovo is an inviolable part of the territory of Serbia within the Republic of Yugoslavia."

Actually...if you are going to quote something, quote it correctly:

Reaffirm the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (i.e., Kosovo remains part of the FRY, to which Serbia is now the recognized successor state) and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2 of UNSCR 1244 (an annex that envisions, inter alia, a Kosovo status process);

However, that's only a part of the Resolution!

Serbia may not be the successor to Yugoslavia but that does not change the irrefutable fact that the under the Yugoslav constitution, international treaties, and UN 1244 Kosovo was always a territory of Serbia, even when it was under UN administration. Just because someone else cleans up your front yard, it does not mean that your front yard now belongs to that person.

Here's the part that is most telling:

Authorize the UN to facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status, its level and forms of autonomy (began in late 2005 under the auspices of UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari);

Mmmmm.....It seems that under this provision of Resolution 1244, Kosovo can indeed become an independent state. You really do have reading comprehension problems if you constently keep missing this. Either that or you just plainly ignore it because it conflicts with your entire argument.

3. That is highly disputable in light of the fact that NATO troops, led by the French, have banned the Serbs from visiting their relatives.

Link?

Let us not forget that the US and Germany both said they were hell bent on Kosovo becoming independent even before the declaration of independence and that they told their puppets in Pristina that if Kosovo declares independence, Europe and the US will give them billions of dollars.

Credible source on this one please? I have been following American Foreign Policy for sometime and I have not seen anything written or said in this regard. So please enlighten us.

But that if they chose to stay with Serbia, they would suffer unspecified "consequences".

Where did this come from?

4. See above. NATO immediately tried to ban Serb protests inside Kosovo and deployed to regional border to stop Serbs from visiting their relatives on opposite sides of the border. Read the news, they were arresting people for crossing the border. We're not talking police here, we talking fully armed combat soldiers pointing guns at children. Sounds like force is being use to me.

Um source? You realize that protests have sprung up in that area and have been particularly violent right? I have been following the news. It seems I have been following it more closely for if what you said was really happening (the part about children having guns pointed at them) it would be all over the news.

5. And you forget the trials that were held and are being held to punish Milosevic and his henchman. Again, you have not disproven the point of Serbia being placed in double jeopardy by being punished by Bush this century for something they did last century.

You really love blaming Bush for things that are not his fault. Grow up.

6. Some of it was intentional? LOL. The indesputable fact is that all of the race based oppression was intentional and no the civil war nor the civil rights act fully freed African Americans from oppression. They are still being oppressed as are the Native Americans.

I see Reading Comprehension eludes you. Keep trying. Maybe I might take you seriously one day.

7. Again Kosovo did not do this on their own.

Again....PROVE IT!!!!

They were pushed by Bush and gang.

Yea right! :rolleyes:

The average Kosovars and Serbs wanted a compromise agreement.

If that was true then their parliment would not have passed their Declaration of Independence without dissent.

Serbia's government wanted compromise.

No they didn't.

*snip*

Just stop it. You are embarressing yourself. You keep blaming Bush for everything but yet...it was the RUSSIANS that prevented a solution.

Russia, which holds a veto in the Security Council as one of five permanent members, had stated that it would not support any resolution which was not acceptable to both Belgrade and Kosovo Albanians.[29] Whilst most observers had, at the beginning of the talks, anticipated independence as the most likely outcome, others have suggested that a rapid resolution might not be preferable.[30]

After many weeks of discussions at the UN, the United States, United Kingdom and other European members of the Security Council formally 'discarded' a draft resolution backing Ahtisaari's proposal on 20 July 2007, having failed to secure Russian backing. Beginning in August, a "Troika" consisting of negotiators from the European Union (Wolfgang Ischinger), the United States (Frank Wisner) and Russia (Alexander Botsan-Kharchenko) launched a new effort to reach a status outcome acceptable to both Belgrade and Pristina

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo#Recent_history_.281999_to_present.29

8. Go back and reread the ceasefire and 1244 again. Kosovo was not made quasi independent when the war ended. It remained part of Serbia in name but in practice was made a UN protectorate.

With its own parliment, its own laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo#Recent_history_.281999_to_present.29

A protectorate is no close to being an independent state. Not even close to quasi independent. What would have made Kosovo semi independent was that Hong Kong solution offered by Serbia.

In 2001, UNMIK promulgated a Constitutional Framework for Kosovo that established the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government (PISG), including an elected Kosovo Assembly, Presidency and office of Prime Minister. Kosovo held its first free, Kosovo-wide elections in late 2001 (municipal elections had been held the previous year).

Seems to me that they were quasi Independent.

Fact is that Kosovo is still not independent.

Yes they are.

Particularly when the German and French governments have declared themselves the new defacto owners of Kosovo by declaring that their people in the EU mission have the right to fire political leaders who have directly elected by the Kosovar people.

Source?

This isn't about Kosovo being independent this about who is going to own and control it. If the US and EU really recognized Kosovo as a independent state, they would not insist on the right to fire elected leaders or on the power to overturn local laws or impose ones that are based on nonKosovo standards.

Ok...whatever. I'll talk to you again when you actually do know what you are talking about and not spouting conspiracy theories.

3. That is highly disputable in light of the fact that NATO troops, led by the French, have banned the Serbs from visiting their relatives. Proof?
Let us not forget that the US and Germany both said they were hell bent on Kosovo becoming independent even before the declaration of independence and that they told their puppets in Pristina that if Kosovo declares independence, Europe and the US will give them billions of dollars. But that if they chose to stay with Serbia, they would suffer unspecified "consequences". They were? Is that why Germany took several days time and a meeting of the cabinet before they finally decided to recognize independence? Because they were hell-bent on Kosovo being independent?
Also, concerning your allegation that Kosovo was threatened with "unspecified 'consequences'", complete the following sentence:
"Proof of my allegations can be found at ______________."
4. See above. NATO immediately tried to ban Serb protests inside Kosovo and deployed to regional border to stop Serbs from visiting their relatives on opposite sides of the border. Read the news, they were arresting people for crossing the border. We're not talking police here, we talking fully armed combat soldiers pointing guns at children. Sounds like force is being use to me. This is not true.

5. And you forget the trials that were held and are being held to punish Milosevic and his henchman. Again, you have not disproven the point of Serbia being placed in double jeopardy by being punished by Bush this century for something they did last century. Serbia isn't turning in War Criminals, so its hardly as though they were being punished for something that happened "last century". And "last century" wasn't nearly as long ago as the "last century" thing Germany is still paying for, so please don't use it as an excuse.

7. Again Kosovo did not do this on their own. They were pushed by Bush and gang. The average Kosovars and Serbs wanted a compromise agreement. Serbia's government wanted compromise. Kosovo government probably would have accepted compromise if not for religious wackos who were given support by neocons in the Bush administration who did nothing but bash Serbia by doing things like broadcasting advertisements in Kosovo that something to the effect of "all Serbs are racists" and "the evil Serbs are planning a second genocide". Never mind the fact that no such planning was even taking place. Bush deliberately demonized the Serbs and the Serbian government by broadcasting deliberately false and misleading information. But when have they ever told the truth when it comes to foreign policy? Proof?

Anything to break up Yugoslavie's remains. What was Woodrow Wilson thinking? (see formation of Yugoslavia at end of WWI)

Only one in four people in Kosovo voted. More then that know how to assemble a rifle in pitch black, but of course that's only for Democracy. Modern Muslims don't go breaking up nation-states, the radical ones do. Hence your logic is bullshit.

Yugoslavia played a major role against Nazis in WWII. Maybe he was thinking that people of different races and skin color could get along? Of course in came NATO and put a stop to that. We must only have nation-states according to skin color; Serbs can't have Albanians in their nation-states and vice versa. So says NATO, so it must be. The gun rules and peace gets blown up by a bomb, courtesy of Lockheed-Martin.

God I love posters like these who know jack shit about what is being discussed.

It is in our interest to to good things for moderate Muslims in the world, so I support US recognition of Kosovo.

Only one in four people in Kosovo voted. More then that know how to assemble a rifle in pitch black, but of course that's only for Democracy. Modern Muslims don't go breaking up nation-states, the radical ones do. Hence your logic is bullshit.

Anything to break up Yugoslavie's remains. What was Woodrow Wilson thinking? (see formation of Yugoslavia at end of WWI)

Yugoslavia played a major role against Nazis in WWII. Maybe he was thinking that people of different races and skin color could get along? Of course in came NATO and put a stop to that. We must only have nation-states according to skin color; Serbs can't have Albanians in their nation-states and vice versa. So says NATO, so it must be. The gun rules and peace gets blown up by a bomb, courtesy of Lockheed-Martin.

As per the Olympics, I don't think Kosovo deserves a team. Only reason Puerto Rico has a team, is because the US didn't file any objections. In Kosovo's case, it'd be upto Serbia, I think I already know what the answer is. In the case of Chinese Taipei, they've been granted that right because they were once recognized by the UN, but then lost in a war. Furthermore the population of Taiwan is mixed between Taiwanese and Chinese, hence they compete under the banner of Chinese Taipei. And Taiwan hasn't declared independence. If Kosovo wants to compete under the banner Serbian Kosovo, [Chinese Taipei], and remain an autonomous region withing Serbia, they can do so; but the Olympics Comittee thankfully has brainpower, (unlike administrations who lower taxes for the rich before the war and then invade a harmless cuntry, occupy it and give money to it, then they wonder why their own economy blows,) so the OC won't allow Kosovo to secede, not get UN recognition and compete anyways. Duh!

As per the Olympics, I don't think Kosovo deserves a team. Only reason Puerto Rico has a team, is because the US didn't file any objections.

Why should we object? All they are is a territory. Why does Puerto Rico deserve to have a team and not Kosovo?

In Kosovo's case, it'd be upto Serbia, I think I already know what the answer is.

Its not up to Serbia anymore than Puerto Rico's team needs US permission. meaning...it doesn't.

In the case of Chinese Taipei, they've been granted that right because they were once recognized by the UN, but then lost in a war.

Um...Taiwan lost recogniztion in the '70s and lost the civil war in the 40s. You lose on that point.

Furthermore the population of Taiwan is mixed between Taiwanese and Chinese, hence they compete under the banner of Chinese Taipei.

Um no! That's not the reason at all. China objects to the name of Taiwan as well as the Republic of China. Hence the name...Chinese Tiapei.

And Taiwan hasn't declared independence.

Even though they constently petition recognition by the United Nations but China keeps saying no.

If Kosovo wants to compete under the banner Serbian Kosovo, [Chinese Taipei], and remain an autonomous region withing Serbia, they can do so; but the Olympics Comittee thankfully has brainpower, so the OC won't allow Kosovo to secede, not get UN recognition and compete anyways. Duh!

You really really need to have better evidence than that. I mean...Palestine and Taiwan (Chinese Tiapei) are not recognized but yet are in the IOC. Kosovo is no different in this regard.

On February 17, 2008, the IOC promised to recognize the Republic of Kosovo as a new independent nation. However, there seems to be a consensus that athletes from the newly formed republic will not be able to qualify for the Olympics in time to send a delegation to Beijing. This is additionally compromised by the fact that the new nation has yet to be recognized by many other international athletic federations.[45]

And the OCK (Olympic Committee of Kosovo) was formed in 2003

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Committee_of_Kosovo

Hm. I've been thinking that with all this international law and Belgrade-Pristina nine years long negotiations, the Kosovar Albanian leadership and their supporters in the West overlooked one very local, but none the less extremely important detail: Kosovar Albanian - Kosovar Serb reconciliation.

Such thoughts were triggered by the currently ongoing crisis in the Kosovo Police, where ethnic Serb officers refuse to take orders from ethnic Albanian leaders and demand to be placed under UNMIK authority. They have now been suspended and the EU Representative to Kosovo has threatened to replace them with "international police" staff. An incredibly idiotic decision in my view, but unfortunately my opinion does not decide anything.

Apparently, in all the hussle and fussle about 1244, international law, precedents and unique cases, everybody forgot to ensure entente between people on the ground. Everybody happily built the roof for the new house that is the "Republic of Kosovo", but kinda forgot to lay sturdy foundations. And this does not inspire optimism O.o

Umm, yeah Puerto Rico needs US permission to be on the IOC. If the US said NO, I strongly doubt Puerto Rico would field an Olympic Team. Furthermore, Puerto Rico is a recognized territorry of the United States, Kosovo [since the unilateral independence proclamation] is not a recognized country by the UN. Hence you fail miserable when you say Kosovo and Puerto Rico are the same case, it's not. Also, Puerto Rico has Democratic election where more then 25% of the country vote, in Kosovo it's less.

Furthermore, no one objected to Puerto Rico or CHINESE Taipei being in the IOC. Half of the IOC is objecting to Kosovo's inclusion, (not just Russia and Serbia, but also Spain, Greece, Romania, China, Georgia, Azerbaijan, etc.) You have to have the permission of all IOC members to join, don't twist IOC laws to feed your needs, it won't work.

Also, in order to GET CHINESE recognition for the IOC, Taiwan was WILLING TO NEGOTIATE with China. Kosovo is NOT willing to negotiate with Serbia, which means they won't be in the IOC, EVER. The one-sided declarations won't fly with the IOC, and BOTH Puerto Rico and Chinese Taipei negotiated with EVERYONE, not just NATO and other IMF-dependent countries. It's nice that Kosovo's comittee of Olympics was formed, but unless they learn to negotiate, they will not be included. It's called Diplomacy, something the guerilla Thaci has difficulty comprehending.

Hm. I've been thinking that with all this international law and Belgrade-Pristina nine years long negotiations, the Kosovar Albanian leadership and their supporters in the West overlooked one very local, but none the less extremely important detail: Kosovar Albanian - Kosovar Serb reconciliation.

Such thoughts were triggered by the currently ongoing crisis in the Kosovo Police, where ethnic Serb officers refuse to take orders from ethnic Albanian leaders and demand to be placed under UNMIK authority. They have now been suspended and the EU Representative to Kosovo has threatened to replace them with "international police" staff. An incredibly idiotic decision in my view, but unfortunately my opinion does not decide anything.

Apparently, in all the hussle and fussle about 1244, international law, precedents and unique cases, everybody forgot to ensure entente between people on the ground. Everybody happily built the roof for the new house that is the "Republic of Kosovo", but kinda forgot to lay sturdy foundations. And this does not inspire optimism O.o

Iraq, first day I said disaster, turned out to be right. Now Kosovo - I am saying disaster, and in 3 years time I will be once again proven right, except Kosovo will be far worse then Iraq, because it doesn't have UN approval and it will lead to chaos and US hatred by a lot of people. I hate it when I'm right. And I fully cosign your post.

Umm, yeah Puerto Rico needs US permission to be on the IOC. If the US said NO, I strongly doubt Puerto Rico would field an Olympic Team.

Now actually prove this.

Kosovo since the unilateral independence proclamation is not a recognized country by the UN. Hence you fail miserable when you say Kosovo and Puerto Rico are the same case, it's not. Also, Puerto Rico has Democratic election where more then 25% of the country vote, in Kosovo it's less.

Prove it.

Furthermore, no one objected to Puerto Rico or CHINESE Taipei being in the IOC. Half of the IOC is objecting to Kosovo's inclusion, (not just Russia and Serbia, but also Spain, Greece, Romania, China, Georgia, Azerbaijan, etc.)

You mean the 20 nations that stated they would not recognize Kosovo? China is actually not against it. They disagreed with the unilateral pronunciation of it. They favor additional negotiations before making any real decision on wether to recognize it or not.

You have to have the permission of all IOC members to join, don't twist IOC laws to feed your needs, it won't work.

Then why is Palestine in the Olympics even though they are not a nation. Neither is Chinese Tiepie for that matter. It reeks of hypocracy.

Also, in order to GET CHINESE recognition for the IOC, Taiwan was WILLING TO NEGOTIATE with China.

That is why Taiwan keeps asking for UN recognition.

Kosovo is NOT willing to negotiate with Serbia, which means they won't be in the IOC, EVER.

What makes you say never?

The one-sided declarations won't fly with the IOC,

On February 17, 2008, the IOC promised to recognize the Republic of Kosovo as a new independent nation. However, there seems to be a consensus that athletes from the newly formed republic will not be able to qualify for the Olympics in time to send a delegation to Beijing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Summer_Olympics#Participating_NOCs

and BOTH Puerto Rico and Chinese Taipei negotiated with EVERYONE, not just NATO and other IMF-dependent countries.

Prove negotiations.

It's nice that Kosovo's comittee of Olympics was formed, but unless they learn to negotiate, they will not be included. It's called Diplomacy, something the guerilla Thaci has difficulty comprehending.

It seems someone is a tad prejudice here. It really is showing.

Why should we object? All they are is a territory. Why does Puerto Rico deserve to have a team and not Kosovo?



Its not up to Serbia anymore than Puerto Rico's team needs US permission. meaning...it doesn't.



Um...Taiwan lost recogniztion in the '70s and lost the civil war in the 40s. You lose on that point.



Um no! That's not the reason at all. China objects to the name of Taiwan as well as the Republic of China. Hence the name...Chinese Tiapei.



Even though they constently petition recognition by the United Nations but China keeps saying no.



You really really need to have better evidence than that. I mean...Palestine and Taiwan (Chinese Tiapei) are not recognized but yet are in the IOC. Kosovo is no different in this regard.



And the OCK (Olympic Committee of Kosovo) was formed in 2003

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Committee_of_Kosovo

You fail to remember that like Taiwan, Palestine was once a separate country. That is why Palestine still has an olympic team.

Puerto Rico competes with permission from the US. Only actual states don't need permission from someone else. But provinces and regions need parent nation consent.

Umm, yeah Puerto Rico needs US permission to be on the IOC. If the US said NO, I strongly doubt Puerto Rico would field an Olympic Team. Furthermore, Puerto Rico is a recognized territorry of the United States, Kosovo [since the unilateral independence proclamation] is not a recognized country by the UN. Hence you fail miserable when you say Kosovo and Puerto Rico are the same case, it's not. Also, Puerto Rico has Democratic election where more then 25% of the country vote, in Kosovo it's less.

Furthermore, no one objected to Puerto Rico or CHINESE Taipei being in the IOC. Half of the IOC is objecting to Kosovo's inclusion, (not just Russia and Serbia, but also Spain, Greece, Romania, China, Georgia, Azerbaijan, etc.) You have to have the permission of all IOC members to join, don't twist IOC laws to feed your needs, it won't work.

Also, in order to GET CHINESE recognition for the IOC, Taiwan was WILLING TO NEGOTIATE with China. Kosovo is NOT willing to negotiate with Serbia, which means they won't be in the IOC, EVER. The one-sided declarations won't fly with the IOC, and BOTH Puerto Rico and Chinese Taipei negotiated with EVERYONE, not just NATO and other IMF-dependent countries. It's nice that Kosovo's comittee of Olympics was formed, but unless they learn to negotiate, they will not be included. It's called Diplomacy, something the guerilla Thaci has difficulty comprehending.

Funny thing is that the Olympics is about mutual respect and mutual cooperation. Kosovo goes directly against both.

Iraq, first day I said disaster, turned out to be right. Now Kosovo - I am saying disaster, and in 3 years time I will be once again proven right, except Kosovo will be far worse then Iraq, because it doesn't have UN approval and it will lead to chaos and US hatred by a lot of people. I hate it when I'm right. And I fully cosign your post.

I'm pretty certain the serbs in the north will launch an insurgency for independence. NATO can't even handle the insurgents in Iraq or Afghanistan. They won't be able to crush a rebellion in Kosovo either.

It won't be long before start seeing NATO vehicles blown up by IED's and roadside bombs and women suicide bombers blowing up the markets in Pristina.

Now actually prove this.



Prove it.



You mean the 20 nations that stated they would not recognize Kosovo? China is actually not against it. They disagreed with the unilateral pronunciation of it. They favor additional negotiations before making any real decision on wether to recognize it or not.



Then why is Palestine in the Olympics even though they are not a nation. Neither is Chinese Tiepie for that matter. It reeks of hypocracy.



That is why Taiwan keeps asking for UN recognition.



What makes you say never?





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Summer_Olympics#Participating_NOCs



Prove negotiations.



It seems someone is a tad prejudice here. It really is showing.

Eh. Actually it seems you failed comprehension. China has said they will not recognize Kosovo because the declaration and the west's demand for it violated international law and international treaties.

Corneliu2:

Umm, why don't you look up Puerto Rican elections vs. Kosovan elections? In Kosovo, less then 25% of the country voted, that was OSCE's official report. Reading helps, use that skill. In Puerto Rico, quite a bit more people voted, again look it up, I don't have the time to spoonfeed you that information. And China officially called Kosovo's move ILLEGAL! So according to you, the Chinese will come out and say: "you are illegal, so we recognize you". Umm, riiiight, suuuure. Also, China said if Taiwan declares independence, it will invade Taiwan. And do you have proof that Taiwan asks the UN for membership repeatedly? Please show me that proof.

The thing that makes me say never, is because the IOC has better things to do then recognize Guerilla funded states that enable Halliburton to collect American tax dollars and pay them to its own management.

Also, your February 17th article link truly shows your bias. You are either biased, or lazy, because on February 18th, the IOC WITHDREW their recognition of Kosovo. Interesting how you totally expose your point of view by citing Feb 17th, but not 18th. Here's a Wash. Post article with the title "Kosovo not recognised by the IOC". The official spokesman for the IOC also stated: "After being recognised by the UN, Kosovo needs to meet various sports requirements before gaining Olympic status". That's from the article, here's the link: http://www.sofiaecho.com/article/kosovo-not-recognised-by-the-ioc/id_27732/catid_34. Needless to say that Russian veto will keep Kosovo out of the UN and out of the IOC, unless the IOC officially changes it's position. Once again, you gotta read both points of view, otherwise you'll be exposed as being totally biased, by someone like me. BUSTED!

You fail to remember that like Taiwan, Palestine was once a separate country. That is why Palestine still has an olympic team.

Um...There was never a state by the name of Palestine. It is a region. You lose.

Puerto Rico competes with permission from the US. Only actual states don't need permission from someone else. But provinces and regions need parent nation consent.

I am still waiting on proof of this!

Eh. Actually it seems you failed comprehension. China has said they will not recognize Kosovo because the declaration and the west's demand for it violated international law and international treaties.

States that call for continuing the negotiations, disagreeing with unilateral moves
(which have called for further negotiations, settlement in accordance with the UN charter or expressed disagreement with unilateral moves)


People's Republic of China--The Chinese Foreign Minister has made the a statement stressing that the PRC "expresses grave concern" over Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence. The Minister's remarks go on to add that "The resolution of the Kosovo issue bears on peace and stability of the Balkan region, the fundamental norms governing international relations as well as the authority and role of the UN Security Council. China always believes that a plan acceptable to both Serbia and Kosovo through negotiations is the best way to resolve this issue", that "the unilateral move taken by Kosovo will lead to a series of consequences. China is deeply worried about its severe and negative impact on peace and stability of the Balkan region and the goal of establishing a multi-ethnic society in Kosovo", stressing that "China calls upon Serbia and Kosovo to continue negotiations for a proper resolution within the framework of the international law and work together to safeguard peace and stability of the Balkan region", and adding that "the international community should create favorable conditions for that".[96][97]

Please tell me where they said they would not recognize Kosovo?

Corneliu2:

Umm, why don't you look up Puerto Rican elections vs. Kosovan elections? In Kosovo, less then 25% of the country voted, that was OSCE's official report. Reading helps, use that skill. In Puerto Rico, quite a bit more people voted, again look it up, I don't have the time to spoonfeed you that information.

The burden of proof was on you to prove the assertion! I'll wait for you to prove it.

And China officially called Kosovo's move ILLEGAL! So according to you, the Chinese will come out and say: "you are illegal, so we recognize you".

They declared the unilateral move illegal and wants further negotiations. I see you cannot actually read but then again...that's nothing new around here.

Umm, riiiight, suuuure. Also, China said if Taiwan declares independence, it will invade Taiwan. And do you have proof that Taiwan asks the UN for membership repeatedly? Please show me that proof.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDQ/is_2001_August_13/ai_77825987

That was from 2001

This is from 2007:

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/07/24/asia/AS-GEN-Taiwan-UN-China.php

On July 19, the self-ruled island applied to join the United Nations as Taiwan — a departure from 14 previous post-1971 applications as the Republic of China.

The thing that makes me say never, is because the IOC has better things to do then recognize Guerilla funded states that enable Halliburton to collect American tax dollars and pay them to its own management.

I love these buzz words you keep using. Especially since they have no basis in reality.

Also, your February 17th article link truly shows your bias. You are either biased, or lazy, because on February 18th, the IOC WITHDREW their recognition of Kosovo.

They actually never recognize them to begin with. There is a difference between planning to and actually doing it.

day later, IOC spokeswoman precised the requirements which Kosovo needs to meet before being recognised by the IOC, most notably it has to be recognised by the United Nations as independent first (a condition not imposed on some Olympic participants such as Taiwan and Palestine.[150]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence#Welcoming_or_supporting_indepe ndence


Interesting how you totally expose your point of view by citing Feb 17th, but not 18th. Here's a Wash. Post article with the title "Kosovo not recognised by the IOC". The official spokesman for the IOC also stated: "After being recognised by the UN, Kosovo needs to meet various sports requirements before gaining Olympic status". That's from the article, here's the link: http://www.sofiaecho.com/article/kosovo-not-recognised-by-the-ioc/id_27732/catid_34.

The word used was promised! Your link states the samething. They promise to do so but with conditions.

Needless to say that Russian veto will keep Kosovo out of the UN and out of the IOC, unless the IOC officially changes it's position. Once again, you gotta read both points of view, otherwise you'll be exposed as being totally biased, by someone like me. BUSTED!

Actually...i'm not the one being biased. I at least have done my research without using buzzwords like you. I at least are not blaming the west for Kosovo declaring independence like most people who oppose this are doing so.

Hm. I've been thinking that with all this international law and Belgrade-Pristina nine years long negotiations, the Kosovar Albanian leadership and their supporters in the West overlooked one very local, but none the less extremely important detail: Kosovar Albanian - Kosovar Serb reconciliation.Here's the funny thing about reconciliation: Both sides need to do something. I have yet to see major effort towards reconciliation on the Serbian side, while the Albanians have, for one, avoided creating a politically charged flag.

Funny thing is that the Olympics is about mutual respect and mutual cooperation. Kosovo goes directly against both.Prove it.
I'm pretty certain the serbs in the north will launch an insurgency for independence. NATO can't even handle the insurgents in Iraq or Afghanistan. They won't be able to crush a rebellion in Kosovo either. Compare the sizes of the two countries, along with the geopolitical situation. Then come back once you've realized just why an insurgency in Iraq or Afghanistan would be completely different from one in Kosovo.
It won't be long before start seeing NATO vehicles blown up by IED's and roadside bombs and women suicide bombers blowing up the markets in Pristina.How long is that? Or is this another "The insurgency is in its last throes" statement based entirely on wishful thinking?

Every nation must be free and independent, there is no reason to be angry for the loss of Kosovo, all mankind is a big family. Why serbia should complay independence? Long live to Independent Kosovo.

Then why is Palestine in the Olympics even though they are not a nation. Neither is Chinese Tiepie for that matter. It reeks of hypocracy.

Why do tie pies reek of horse rule? O.o

Um...There was never a state by the name of Palestine. It is a region. You lose.



I am still waiting on proof of this!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

"On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly, with a two-thirds majority international vote, passed the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181), a plan to resolve the Arab-Jewish conflict by partitioning the territory into separate Jewish and Arab states,"

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_mandate_end.php

"On November 29, 1947, the U.N. General Assembly by a two-thirds vote (33 to 13 with Britain and nine others abstaining) passed Resolution 181 partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab."



You Fail.

The burden of proof was on you to prove the assertion! I'll wait for you to prove it.



They declared the unilateral move illegal and wants further negotiations. I see you cannot actually read but then again...that's nothing new around here.



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDQ/is_2001_August_13/ai_77825987

That was from 2001

This is from 2007:

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/07/24/asia/AS-GEN-Taiwan-UN-China.php





I love these buzz words you keep using. Especially since they have no basis in reality.



They actually never recognize them to begin with. There is a difference between planning to and actually doing it.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence#Welcoming_or_supporting_indepe ndence




The word used was promised! Your link states the samething. They promise to do so but with conditions.



Actually...i'm not the one being biased. I at least have done my research without using buzzwords like you. I at least are not blaming the west for Kosovo declaring independence like most people who oppose this are doing so.

Come now. You were the one who said the IOC was getting ready to recognize Kosovo. You've been caught with your pants down.

EDIT: Also you were the one who said that China would recognize Kosovo. Something it said it will not do unless Serbia recognizes Kosovo.

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/538253/

The only way to calm the situation now is for Russia to redeploy to Serb areas of Kosovo and for the Kosovo Albanians and the west to let the Kosovo serbs have their own country. It is the only way to prevent a new balkan war. The Serbs won't accept being part of kosovo and if you try to force them out or force them to accept the anti serb government in Pristina, most of the world would view it as genocide. And it would not be good if NATO was seen as helping the genocide.

looks like we now have first steps toward the new balkan war. I'm sure NATO is going to start bombing elementary schools and hospitals as it did during Kosovo War I.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-03-03-kosovo-serbia_N.htm

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/538253/

The only way to calm the situation now is for Russia to redeploy to Serb areas of Kosovo and for the Kosovo Albanians and the west to let the Kosovo serbs have their own country. It is the only way to prevent a new balkan war. The Serbs won't accept being part of kosovo and if you try to force them out or force them to accept the anti serb government in Pristina, most of the world would view it as genocide. And it would not be good if NATO was seen as helping the genocide.

Why not move all Serbs in Kosovo to a Border area and then shift that Area Back to Serbia. Would that help?

Why not move all Serbs in Kosovo to a Border area and then shift that Area Back to Serbia. Would that help?

The Northern 3 Serbian provinces of Kosovo do constitute the border area. But even if they weren't, it was decided by the international community that such a move constitutes ethnic cleansing. This was a decision made when the Serbs tried to move the Albanians out of Kosovo.

I think its interesting that the west did not think that Serbs would strongly object to Kosovo and dismissed all signs that such protests would happen.

The Northern 3 Serbian provinces of Kosovo do constitute the border area. But even if they weren't, it was decided by the international community that such a move constitutes ethnic cleansing. This was a decision made when the Serbs tried to move the Albanians out of Kosovo.

I think its interesting that the west did not think that Serbs would strongly object to Kosovo and dismissed all signs that such protests would happen.

What Moron decided to Put the Border on the North side of the Serbian Areas and leave them in Kosovo? Were they High?

Ethnic Cleansing? I thought that was when you killed them?

Umm, yeah Puerto Rico needs US permission to be on the IOC. If the US said NO, I strongly doubt Puerto Rico would field an Olympic Team. Furthermore, Puerto Rico is a recognized territorry of the United States, Kosovo [since the unilateral independence proclamation] is not a recognized country by the UN. Hence you fail miserable when you say Kosovo and Puerto Rico are the same case, it's not. Also, Puerto Rico has Democratic election where more then 25% of the country vote, in Kosovo it's less.

Furthermore, no one objected to Puerto Rico or CHINESE Taipei being in the IOC. Half of the IOC is objecting to Kosovo's inclusion, (not just Russia and Serbia, but also Spain, Greece, Romania, China, Georgia, Azerbaijan, etc.) You have to have the permission of all IOC members to join, don't twist IOC laws to feed your needs, it won't work.

Also, in order to GET CHINESE recognition for the IOC, Taiwan was WILLING TO NEGOTIATE with China. Kosovo is NOT willing to negotiate with Serbia, which means they won't be in the IOC, EVER. The one-sided declarations won't fly with the IOC, and BOTH Puerto Rico and Chinese Taipei negotiated with EVERYONE, not just NATO and other IMF-dependent countries. It's nice that Kosovo's comittee of Olympics was formed, but unless they learn to negotiate, they will not be included. It's called Diplomacy, something the guerilla Thaci has difficulty comprehending.

For people to understand that the case of Puerto Rico and the case of Kosovo are completely different from one another, they need to understand that Puerto Rico possess its own constitution, crafted in 1951, whereas Kosovo lacks one. Puerto Rico, a recognized country as a commonwealth by the world (UN included), has many more privileges than Kosovo, which isn't even recognized as a nation by China, Spain, and other countries. For proof of what I'm stating here, and for those of you who question every single detail (including a Puerto Rican team on the IOC), make reference to the following:
http://welcome.topuertorico.org/constitu.shtml
http://welcome.topuertorico.org/government.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Puerto_Rico
http://www.slate.com/id/2105234

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

"On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly, with a two-thirds majority international vote, passed the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181), a plan to resolve the Arab-Jewish conflict by partitioning the territory into separate Jewish and Arab states,"

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_mandate_end.php

"On November 29, 1947, the U.N. General Assembly by a two-thirds vote (33 to 13 with Britain and nine others abstaining) passed Resolution 181 partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab."



You Fail.

Um...Israel declared statehood. Palestine did not. I'm not the one that failed here. Palestine has never been a state. So tell me...what does the link tell me? Nothing. It proves that it was partitioned to form two seperate states but only one state formed while the other, who should have declared it along with Israel, didn't and sided with the losers in Israel's War of Independence.

Come now. You were the one who said the IOC was getting ready to recognize Kosovo. You've been caught with your pants down.

Getting ready to and actually doing it, are two totally seperate things. Look at how long it took the US to recognize Kosovo. We applauded the move when it occured but waited before we did anything else. Hell...we still haven't called our consulate there an embassy yet.

EDIT: Also you were the one who said that China would recognize Kosovo. Something it said it will not do unless Serbia recognizes Kosovo.

I'm not actually seeing that. I'm seeing something along the lines of both sides agreeing:

China always believes that a plan acceptable to both Serbia and Kosovo through negotiations is the best way to resolve this issue",

The jury is still out.

looks like we now have first steps toward the new balkan war. I'm sure NATO is going to start bombing elementary schools and hospitals as it did during Kosovo War I.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-03-03-kosovo-serbia_N.htm

:headbang:

You really are a piece of work. You know that? FYI: My father delivered GENERATORS TO HOSPITALS during the last fucking crisis, while under fire.

If there is another war, it'll be the Serbs that start it.

Um...Israel declared statehood. Palestine did not. I'm not the one that failed here. Palestine has never been a state. So tell me...what does the link tell me? Nothing. It proves that it was partitioned to form two seperate states but only one state formed while the other, who should have declared it along with Israel, didn't and sided with the losers in Israel's War of Independence.
A "Government of All Palestine" was, actually, formed in 1948, controlling only the Gaza Strip: Transjordan occupied the West Bank, decided that a separate mini-state there really wasn't necessary, and annexed it, changing the national name to "Jordan"; no other Arab states recognized this annexation, and Jordan has since renounced title to the West Bank.
The Government of All Palestine was recognized only by Egypt, and the Egyptians suppressed it in 1951, after Palestine repeatedly violated the cease-fire agreement (Israel was threatening to renounce the cease-fire and resume active warfare if cross-border raids did not cease) and sent agents to assassinate the king of Jordan.

What Moron decided to Put the Border on the North side of the Serbian Areas and leave them in Kosovo? Were they High?

Ethnic Cleansing? I thought that was when you killed them?

Ethnic Cleansing is when you use deadly force or threat of deadly force to make an entire ethnic group leave an area. It does often involve killing lots of members of the target group. But you can also accomplish the same thing by causing them to fear that such killings will happen if they don't move where you want them to move.

:headbang:

You really are a piece of work. You know that? FYI: My father delivered GENERATORS TO HOSPITALS during the last fucking crisis, while under fire.

If there is another war, it'll be the Serbs that start it.

Highly doubtful. it is more likely that Bush will start it because if you look at his history he enjoys going around starting and causing wars. Just so his buddies at KBR can make a quick profit off other people's suffering.

A "Government of All Palestine" was, actually, formed in 1948, controlling only the Gaza Strip: Transjordan occupied the West Bank, decided that a separate mini-state there really wasn't necessary, and annexed it, changing the national name to "Jordan"; no other Arab states recognized this annexation, and Jordan has since renounced title to the West Bank.

And during the 2nd Arab-Israeli War, the Jordanians lost control of the West Bank and Egypt lost control of the Gaza Strip. There was still no Palestinian State though.

The Government of All Palestine was recognized only by Egypt, and the Egyptians suppressed it in 1951, after Palestine repeatedly violated the cease-fire agreement (Israel was threatening to renounce the cease-fire and resume active warfare if cross-border raids did not cease) and sent agents to assassinate the king of Jordan.

And thus, the Palestinians were expelled from the country.

Highly doubtful. it is more likely that Bush will start it because if you look at his history he enjoys going around starting and causing wars. Just so his buddies at KBR can make a quick profit off other people's suffering.

How nice of you to think that no other nation is capable of starting a war but the US. You really are not worth the bandwidth to argue with anymore as you are dillusional.

And during the 2nd Arab-Israeli War, the Jordanians lost control of the West Bank and Egypt lost control of the Gaza Strip. There was still no Palestinian State though.
But from 1948-51, there was.
I was just responding to your impression that no Palestinian state had *ever* existed.

And thus, the Palestinians were expelled from the country.
No, when the Egyptians suppressed the Palestinian state in 1951, nobody was expelled except Mufti Husseini and a handful of his cronies; the Gazans were, however, rendered stateless (Jordan granted citizenship to the West Bankers, but Egypt has always refused to accept the Gazans).

But from 1948-51, there was.
I was just responding to your impression that no Palestinian state had *ever* existed.

In truth...it didn't exist.

No, when the Egyptians suppressed the Palestinian state in 1951, nobody was expelled except Mufti Husseini and a handful of his cronies; the Gazans were, however, rendered stateless (Jordan granted citizenship to the West Bankers, but Egypt has always refused to accept the Gazans).

Yes they did grant citizenship to those in the West Bank but when the PLO tried to assassinate the King, that ended and they were indeed expelled.

In truth...it didn't exist.
It didn't get widely recognized, and was scarcely functional as a state, to be sure.


Yes they did grant citizenship to those in the West Bank but when the PLO tried to assassinate the King, that ended and they were indeed expelled.
In large numbers, yes. Not all the citizenships were revoked, however, and a slight majority of Jordanians to this day are descendants of the West Bankers rather than of the old Transjordanian population.

Ok Corneliu2, I am going to put this into very simple terms for you:

China called Kosovo's action illegal, so they will NOT recognize Kosovo, not matter how much you want them to. You don't ask a police officer to reward you for speeding, so why ask China to reward Kosovo for doing something illegal? Or is a recognition not considered a reward? Slovenia would disagree here. You neocons should use common sense, at least on a part-time basis, not asking for much here.

The IOC on February 18th stated that being a UN member is a prerequisite for Kosovo to joining the IOC; they said this after Russia said that they will prevent any chance from Kosovo joining the UN with their veto. Now let's use LOGIC, ok?

1. Serbia will not change it's position on Kosovo, unless Kosovo withdraws it's Declaration of Independence, Serbia's official stance.
2. If Serbia doesn't change it's position on Kosovo, Russia will veto any application for Kosovo to join the UN. This is Russia's official stance. President-elect Medvedev and United Russia Coalition, as well as Russia's judiciary won't change it.
3. If Russia vetoes Kosovo's UN application, Kosovo cannot be part of the UN.
4. If Kosovo cannot be part of the UN, Kosovo cannot be part of IOC, because the IOC OFFICIALLY SET UN membership as a prerequisite for Kosovo membership in the IOC.

Thus, we logically conclude, that an "independent" Kosovo cannot ever join the IOC. I am sorry, I cannot say it any simpler than that. Remember, when debating with neocons, one must show all work, all logic, and then they will still ask questions.