NationStates Jolt Archive

Kosovo's Prime Minister Hashim Thaci has given the clearest indication yet that the province will declare independence from Serbia on Sunday.
Mr Thaci said Sunday would be another day of calm during which institutions would be engaged in "implementing the will of the citizens of Kosovo".

Nothing Belgrade could do would have an impact on developments in Kosovo, he said without confirming the move.

Hours earlier, the EU approved sending a police and justice mission to Kosovo.

The 2,000-strong mission will begin deploying to the region from next week.


See a map of Kosovo's ethnic breakdown
It will be headed by retired French Lt Gen Yves de Kermabon, who was commander of the Nato mission in Kosovo in 2004-2005.

Veteran Dutch diplomat Pieter Feith has been appointed the EU special representative in Kosovo.

The US and most EU states are preparing to recognise Kosovo quickly, but Serbia and Russia strongly oppose the move.

KOSOVO BACKGROUND
Population: approximately two million
Majority ethnic Albanian; 10% Serb
Under UN control since Nato drove out Serbian forces in 1999
2,000 strong EU staff to take over from UN after independence
Nato troops would stay to provide security


Legal furore over recognition
Kosovo youths eye future
UK soldiers on standby

The EU waited diplomatically until Serbia's pro-Western President Boris Tadic was sworn into office on Friday before giving the final green light for the deployment of the mission, says the BBC's Oana Lungescu in Brussels.

The decision was formalised by a so-called "silent procedure", under which members of the 27-nation bloc had until midnight on Friday to voice objections.

The 2,000 EU police and customs officers, judges and prosecutors are tasked with helping to prevent human rights abuses and ensure that Kosovo's fragile institutions are free from political interference.

Crucially, the mission will be able to intervene in sensitive areas such as fighting corruption and organised crime and catching war crime suspects.

While Germany and Italy are the biggest contributors, all EU members except for tiny Malta will take part, as well as non-EU countries like the United States, Turkey and Croatia.

Our correspondent says it is a clear signal to Serbia and Russia, which fiercely oppose Kosovo's independence and insist the presence of the EU there will be illegal.

Limitations

Serbia has threatened to use diplomatic and economic measures against Kosovo, though it has ruled out using force.


Thaci is a former guerrilla leader

The EU mission, known as EULEX, is to be deployed over four months, and is expected to take over from the United Nations by early June.

The UN has administered Kosovo since a Nato bombing campaign in 1999 drove out Serb forces.

The US and a number of EU countries, including the UK, are expected to recognise Kosovo quickly.

A UN plan on independence includes limitations on independence.

These include supervision by an international presence; limited armed forces; strong provisions for Serb minority protection; commitment to multi-ethnic democracy; and neither Kosovo nor any part of it will be allowed to join another country.



Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7248446.stm)

About time I say. The Kosovan people have been through enough of a struggle.

I smell another Yugoslav war brewing.

Well Serbia's going to be beating the shit out of the Kosovans again shortly, then. A true shame.

balls in Putin's court now

fuck.

If that's what they really want, I can't really see why Kosovo shouldn't be independent.

This is all Tito's fault.

If that's what they really want, I can't really see why Kosovo shouldn't be independent.

the whole Russia's little brother thing might come into play this is the Balkans is it not

its a bit like German troops marching into Belgium from a French perspective especially with the decision to add Turkish troops to the force

if the kosovars have the right to become independant, why cant the basques? the EU should look in their own back yard before ploughing into the balkans

This is all Tito's fault.

Everything is Tito's fault. Kosovo independence, global warming, even Fred Phelps. *nods*

On a more serious note, little known fact: The ethnic Albanians in Kosovo have both committed and been the victim of genocide in the last decade. Just putting it out there.

Oh, and just FYI, I tend to be for Kosovian independence.

Aw, man. I had wanted to be the one to post it, but I forgot to check for a news article on the day my source gave me.

Everything is Tito's fault. Kosovo independence, global warming, even Fred Phelps. *nods*

On a more serious note, little known fact: The ethnic Albanians in Kosovo have both committed and been the victim of genocide in the last decade. Just putting it out there.

Oh, and just FYI, I tend to be for Kosovian independence.
No, I am serious. Tito's 'federative' model and 'self-administration' policies exacerbated ethnic tensions boiling under the service by giving ethnic groups control of individual resources bases and political autonomy, rather than having a centralized system which overcame such petty distinctions. I am sure if Tito took that path that the 90's for Yugoslavia would have been less bloody.

the whole Russia's little brother thing might come into play this is the Balkans is it not

its a bit like German troops marching into Belgium from a French perspective especially with the decision to add Turkish troops to the force
The Serbs have ruled out using force, so perhaps it's not that bad.

Go Kosovo!
*waves mini flag*
Next step, announcing freedom from capitalist oppressors. *nod*

But talking seriously, it should have happened earlier. As an aside i wonder if the US would benefit from becoming a split country of north and south, with different governments to rule both, insane yes? no?

The Serbs have ruled out using force, so perhaps it's not that bad.

When it comes down to it though, do you believe when the declaration comes that they will do nothing? That they will make a big diplomatic noise yet do nothing?

When it comes down to it though, do you believe when the declaration comes that they will do nothing? That they will make a big diplomatic noise yet do nothing?
Economic boycott, probably.

If that's what they really want, I can't really see why Kosovo shouldn't be independent.

Yes, why shouldn't immigrants from your bordering country kick you off the territory belonging to your country since ever?

Some facts:
1.Have you ever been in Kosovo? I did. It's full (or at least it was before the coming of the UCK) of medieval serbian monasteries. That land was - historically - Serbia.
2.UN resolution number-I-cannot-remember, anyway AFTER the war of 1999, says Kosovo belongs to Serbia.
3.Kosovo leadership includes alleged war criminals wanted by the International Tribunal. One of the reasons used to refuse Serbia EU as candidate is that Serbia isn't cooperating to the capture of alleged war criminals wanted by the International Tribunal. So?
4.If Kosovo can become independent as a result of ethnical cleansing (the Serbs were driven out after 1999, and that's a fact), why shouldn't the serbian part of Bosnia join Serbia?
5.Also, do we really want to have such a violation of international right? And why such double standards? What about the Basque country then? Or Northern Ireland? Or what about an eventual separatist movement in the US indian (first nations) reservations? Tamil part of Ceylon? Corse? Southern Ossetia? Kurdistan? Transdnestria? Scotland? Quebec? Mexican immigrants in California? Why no-one recognises the Turkish Republic of Cyprus then?

This is all Tito's fault.

How?

Edit: I'm no fan of Tito, but at least he tried (if unsuccessfully) to suppress ethnic nationalism.

if the kosovars have the right to become independant, why cant the basques? the EU should look in their own back yard before ploughing into the balkans

Yep... but still it's better then nothing... although I'm not all that fond of it.. next time the albanians proberly try to break up from Macedonia..

Yep... but still it's better then nothing... although I'm not all that fond of it.. next time the albanians proberly try to break up from Macedonia..

they already tried.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia#Independence
The Republic of Macedonia remained at peace through the Yugoslav wars of the early 1990s. A few very minor changes to its border with Yugoslavia were agreed upon to resolve problems with the demarcation line between the two countries. However, it was seriously destabilised by the Kosovo War in 1999, when an estimated 360,000 ethnic Albanian refugees from Kosovo took refuge in the country. Although they departed shortly after the war, soon after, Albanian radicals on both sides of the border took up arms in pursuit of autonomy or independence for the Albanian-populated areas of the Republic.
A short conflict was fought between government and ethnic Albanian rebels, mostly in the north and west of the country, between March and June 2001.

I don't really care, but NATO - the U.S. especially - needs to GTFO.

In fact, all U.S. troops abroad should be brought home immediately.

Go Kosovo.

Even if 100% of Kosovars were ethnic Serbs (and not 5% as it is) I'd support Kosovo independence if they voted to separate from Serbia. If a country treats a group of its citizens like shit they have absolutely no reason to remain a part of it. And they absolutely have the right to take their land with them.

Kosovan

Kosovian

Kosovars

Well, what is the right word for natives of Kosovo? :p

It seems that the Kosovar Serbs (and other non-Albanians) will be able to enjoy what their cousins in Krajina did, at the hands of another Western vassal. The West hasn't really cared about them before, and with the Albanians taking up more sovereignty they'll hardly be able to do anything if the Albanians continue to treat their minorities in the usual fashion.

Kosovo declares independence today! (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080217/tts-uk-kosovo-serbia-ca02f96_4.html)

PRISTINA (Reuters) - Kosovo Albanians will proclaim independence from Serbia on Sunday, ending a long chapter in the bloody break-up of Yugoslavia but cementing a bitter ethnic frontline in the Balkans.

Kosovo will be the 6th state carved from the Serb-dominated federation since 1991, after Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia and Montenegro, and the last to escape Serbia's embrace.

The Serbs vow never to give up the land where their history goes back 1,000 years.

They will reject independence in defiance of the Albanians and their Western backers and will keep their grip on strongholds in northern Kosovo, making the ethnic partition of the new state a reality from the start.

President George W. Bush said the United States, which has 1,700 troops in Kosovo's NATO-led peacekeeping force of 16,000, would work with its allies to make sure there was no violence.

"The United States will continue to work with our allies to do the very best we can to make sure there's no violence," he said during a visit to Tanzania. Bush added that he was heartened by the Kosovo government's proclaimed willingness to support Serbian rights.

Kosovo Prime Minister Hashim Thaci said on Saturday: "The success of Kosovo's independence as a new beginning will be clearly measured by respect for the rights of minorities, especially Serbs."

Snow blanketed the capital on Sunday morning after triumphant celebrations the night before, thousands of Albanians pouring into the streets, flags in every hand and car horns blaring. Banners proclaimed "Happy Independence".

"Today, a new life begins. The past should not be forgotten, but it belongs to the past, and should be forgiven," the Kosovo daily Koha Ditore wrote.

Ten years ago this week, Serb forces fought an Albanian guerrilla uprising, killing civilians who got in the way. Major Western powers were calling for talks. Russia backed Serbia in its battle with "terrorists".

Determined to end a decade of humiliation from Belgrade under the late autocrat Slobodan Milosevic, the Albanians fought on until the West, unable to sit powerless after other Balkan bloodbaths, bombed Serbia into submission in 1999.

Kosovo has been run by the United Nations since Serb forces withdrew in June that year. Promised swift recognition by the United States and major European Union powers, Kosovo's 90 percent Albanian majority can now ignore Serb warnings.

"This is the happiest day," said Tahir Bajrami, an elderly Kosovo Albanian who flew from New York to join the celebrations. "We were prisoners, but this marks a new beginning," he said.

The European Union will deploy a rule-of-law mission of some 2,000 starting next month to take over from the United Nations. A NATO-led peace force of 16,000 troops will stay on.



Kosovo will declare itself a nation at a session of it's parliament at 3:00 PM, British time. Yugoslavia's last constituent parts will be broken apart. A historic day, you must admit.

Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica will address the people of Serbia at 4:00 PM. I will be most interested to hear what he has to say.

Whilst I am in support of Kosovo's secession, this is a dangerous precedent. Surely if Kosovo has a right to independence, Serbs will demand the Republic of Serbia Krajina be re-established?

The Serbs have ruled out using force, so perhaps it's not that bad.

no the Serbian government has, I'm more worried about roving mobs backed by said Serbian government

I can only imagine what a PR boom E.U success in this will have though

Yes, why shouldn't immigrants from your bordering country kick you off the territory belonging to your country since ever?

are you suggesting Kosovo has never been populated by Kosovars until rather recently :confused:

Whilst I am in support of Kosovo's secession, this is a dangerous precedent. Surely if Kosovo has a right to independence, Serbs will demand the Republic of Serbia Krajina be re-established?

I'd say that more depends on how the E.U treats the new Serbia, so far your regular Serbian seems to have chosen the E.U over nationalism (what with the election and such) however results are expected from this which probably won't happen

This will not be last straw of desintegration of Serbia. Have you heard of Hungarian paramilitary that wants Vojvodina with 350 000 Hungarian minority?

I wonder just why Russia and USA with its centralism still exist and former Yugoslavia hailed for its non-centralism was drowned in blood?

Yes, why shouldn't immigrants from your bordering country kick you off the territory belonging to your country since ever?
Yeah, because the Kosovars all arrived yesterday. Not.

1.Have you ever been in Kosovo? I did. It's full (or at least it was before the coming of the UCK) of medieval serbian monasteries. That land was - historically - Serbia.
I don't think Serbia is so backward that they can't hand over a passport at the Kosovan border should they want to visit any medieval monastaries.

Although having said that, England ran a large part of France in medieval times, perhaps the French ought to hand over land that is historically English to the UK.


2.UN resolution number-I-cannot-remember, anyway AFTER the war of 1999, says Kosovo belongs to Serbia.
Which is why they want to leave Serbia. These people aren't Serbian, have no links to Serbia, and I do not see how Serbia could effectively control the area.


3.Kosovo leadership includes alleged war criminals wanted by the International Tribunal. One of the reasons used to refuse Serbia EU as candidate is that Serbia isn't cooperating to the capture of alleged war criminals wanted by the International Tribunal. So?
Which means Kosovo shouldn't become a member of the EU?


4.If Kosovo can become independent as a result of ethnical cleansing (the Serbs were driven out after 1999, and that's a fact), why shouldn't the serbian part of Bosnia join Serbia?
If they hold a referendum, it's fine by me.

5.Also, do we really want to have such a violation of international right? And why such double standards? What about the Basque country then? Or Northern Ireland? Or what about an eventual separatist movement in the US indian (first nations) reservations? Tamil part of Ceylon? Corse? Southern Ossetia? Kurdistan? Transdnestria? Scotland? Quebec? Mexican immigrants in California? Why no-one recognises the Turkish Republic of Cyprus then?
If they really want to, why not?

no the Serbian government has, I'm more worried about roving mobs backed by said Serbian government

I can only imagine what a PR boom E.U success in this will have though
I hadn't thought of that, but I doubt their pro-EU government would do that. If anything, there might be an exodus of Serbians from the north of Kosovo (allowing them to remain in Serbia might have been a better compramise Serbia could support, but that's politics for you). We can't rule out possibilities, which is why there's an EU mission there. To be quite honest, I don't think too much is going to happen.

The Balkans suck. We should dig a big moat between the place and the rest of Europe and let them all kill each other in a vain attempt to do what they feel they missed out on in the lead-up to WWI.

Seriously, who is stupid enough to get worked up about what country your home happens to be in? Why the hell does it matter? Everyone on all sides is acting like a bunch of infantile idiots, and the only feeling I get on the whole issue is a sort of sad disgust.

Hurray for Independence

And might i add.....OOH RAH!

*snip*

Hurray for Independence

I wonder just why Russia and USA with its centralism still exist and former Yugoslavia hailed for its non-centralism was drowned in blood?

That's probably why!

Independence for all those who want it, I say.

Of course, any violence will be prevented by the peacekeepers :rolleyes:

The Serbs will not take this laying down, but militarily, they will not pose a serious threat to Kosovo's independence unless there is a coup of some sort in Belgrade.


Serbia will now go down one of two roads. Either get on the side of the EU (which will not please Serbian nationalists), and hope to reclaim legitimacy of rule of Kosovo one day, or it turns to Russia.


Militarily, Serbia is not a threat to Kosovo's independence unless it sees the EU and other international presences in Kosovo as a paper tiger.


I fear for the Serbian minority, this could spark their exodus which could lead to a humanitarian crisis.


some Kosovans, wanting to 'cement' their independence from Serbia, may help the Serbian minorities in leaving.


The paltry EU mission would not be able to stop anything like that happening.


Kosovo 1998 was not all about Serbs burning Kosovan Albanians out of their homes. It went both ways, for no side were angels.

Well, what is the right word for natives of Kosovo? :p
Kosovan.

Hurray for Independence
Err, in this case, not really.

Even sucking at the UN's bountiful teat it's a not-particularly self-sustainable region of the Balkans, with unemployment at about 60%.

That's not particularly great, and won't improve when their national budget is 30p and 6 first-class stamps per year.

Great. Who could now prevent the Turks in Germany to claim their independent republic?

Wouldn't that be cool: "Holly muslim republic of Baden-Wurtemberg" ?

I wish them the best, and I hope it'll work out peacefully.

I wish them the best, and I hope it'll work out peacefully.

Let me intorduce you with this. I live in Croatia, and I know, what is happening. If the USE and/or EU doesnt take action soon, there could be truble. :mp5::mp5: There could be war... you now how many Croatians arethere? 4mil., and we have a standing army of 80.000. You know why? Because ours here know that there will be a war here, just a mather of time. Im only 14, but you dont have to explane me the word "war", because I was born in one, while they were bombing my town... So dont wonder if you see Croatia on the list of those who want free Kosovo. Just let me give you a tip about the war.... know what apeared in the newspapper this morning? Serbia goverment: "Ovo bi moglo ponovno aktivirati pitanje starih Jugoslavenskih granica..." or "This colud activate the question of old Jugoslavian borders." - with include Croatia in their borders... Can you imagne the feeling?

p.s. its Kosovljanin for someone from Kosovo, Kosovljanin(male) of Kosovljanka(female).

:sniper::mp5::sniper::mp5:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Namellar/Next.png

These have waited long enough. So, they should be next.

Well, it already happened, so your input can't magically change it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Namellar/Next.png

These have waited long enough. So, they should be next.

Who be they?

Who be they?Abkhazia, Transnistria, South Ossetia, and Nagorno-Karabakh.

Who be they?

Abkhazia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia) - broke away from Georgia in 1994;
Transdniestr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transdniestr) - broke away from Moldavia in 1992;
South Ossetia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_ossetia) - broke away from Georgia in 1992;
Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_Republic) - broke away from Azerbaijan in 1993.


Mmm, should've put the South-Ossetian flag next to the Abkhazian one. Oh well, opened them in the order which they were in the folder ^^

Kosovo will declare itself a nation at a session of it's parliament at 3:00 PM, British time. Yugoslavia's last constituent parts will be broken apart. A historic day, you must admit.


Kosovo has never been a costituent nation of the Jugoslav Federation. Kosovo was an autonome province of Serbia. The costituents were six: Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro and Macedonia.

Kosovan.

Kosovar, I thought.

are you suggesting Kosovo has never been populated by Kosovars until rather recently :confused:


More or less.
The Albanian Kosovars were a minority in Kosovo until about the '50s. The majority was Serbian Kosovars. Afterwards, the albanian-speaking population grew. Of course, the Serbs who lived in the serbian province of Kosovo had and have the full right to call themselves "Kosovars".


by the way, do you know why it's "Kosovo"? It comes from "Kosovo Polje" (spell?), that is, in Serbian, "Blackbirds' Plain" - where the Serbian knights sacrificed themselves in a reckless (and, as a matter of fact, mostly useless) charge against the Ottomans. Guess why it's name is Serbian, not Albanian...

trust me, this shit isn't going to end well. too much of the serbian identity and of the international rule of law is a stake, and both US and EU are acting recklessly, just to show Russia that they are allowed to ignore UN resolutions.

Kosovars may have their independence. I can see why the Serbs are pissed about losing the area but I can also see how the Kosovars sure as hell dont wanna live under Serbian authority i nthe future.

Yeah, because the Kosovars all arrived yesterday. Not.

In historical terms, YES. This is also why the UN resolution allowed autonomy for Kosovo WITHIN Serbia, not independence.


I don't think Serbia is so backward that they can't hand over a passport at the Kosovan border should they want to visit any medieval monastaries.

Indeed. The problem is that Albanian-Kosovars ARE so backward that Serbian-speaking enclaves in Kosovo and Serbian monasteries in Kosovo need constant military protection by the KFOR.


Although having said that, England ran a large part of France in medieval times, perhaps the French ought to hand over land that is historically English to the UK.

With the small difference that Kosovo has been part of Serbia from the Middle Ages till 9 years ago, while the english domination of Northern France lasted less than 200 years and ended about 1700 years ago. Your example fails.


Which is why they want to leave Serbia. These people aren't Serbian, have no links to Serbia, and I do not see how Serbia could effectively control the area.

1.If I want to leave a country because I'm not of that country, and have no link thereto, I pack my things and go away. I don't invade that, kick off the previous occupants, and declare a new State.
2.I see how Serbia could effectively control the area. KFOR arrests UCK war criminals. Then, as the UN resolution called, autonomy of Kosovo within Serbia (it means double language - like it was in Jugoslavia's times, multi-ethnical police forces etc).


Which means Kosovo shouldn't become a member of the EU?

I daresay so. Kosovo should NEVER exist as an independent country, and should NEVER become an EU member.


If they hold a referendum, it's fine by me.

You know they aren't allowed to do so?

Also, are you sure that giving the ok to the Serbian part of Bosnia won't trigger another messy war in the Balkans?

Let's just keep what was agreed between the sides thanks to the UN, shall we?

Indeed. The problem is that Albanian-Kosovars ARE so backward that Serbian-speaking enclaves in Kosovo and Serbian monasteries in Kosovo need constant military protection by the KFOR.

Oh, indeed. There's no way thats not a blanant generalization. Not at all


With the small difference that Kosovo has been part of Serbia from the Middle Ages till 9 years ago, while the english domination of Northern France lasted less than 200 years and ended about 1700 years ago. Your example fails.

"Part of Serbia" - ie, they both were under control of various other empires. Fail

1.If I want to leave a country because I'm not of that country, and have no link thereto, I pack my things and go away. I don't invade that, kick off the previous occupants, and declare a new State.
2.I see how Serbia could effectively control the area. KFOR arrests UCK war criminals. Then, as the UN resolution called, autonomy of Kosovo within Serbia (it means double language - like it was in Jugoslavia's times, multi-ethnical police forces etc).

(Btw, its "Yugoslavia," not "Jugoslavia". Not meaning to be picky, it just took me a couple seconds to figure out what you meant.)

You seem to be suffering from this idea that ethnic Albainians suddenly immigranted, en masse, into Kosovo



Also, are you sure that giving the ok to the Serbian part of Bosnia won't trigger another messy war in the Balkans?

Not with EU forces there

Let's just keep what was agreed between the sides thanks to the UN, shall we?

Ah, but that was meant as a temporary resolution. Not an end-all decision

I wish them the best, and I hope it'll work out peacefully.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7249034.stm

It's not all fun and games right at the moment, and their blatent pandering to the EU with their new flag (although nice try), whilst having a militia leader as a prime minister, will do them no good.

Србијо, не дај се!

Kosovar, I thought.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kosovar

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kosovan

Thus, both are right.



Well, despite Serbian and Russian whining, Kosovo is independent. Ethnically, they earned the right to it. Russia however will make sure to gather support against the Kosovar independence, by supporting independence movements that no other countries support, like those in the flags recently shown (Abhkazia, South Ossetia, etc).

That's bound to go badly. Just think of it, conflicts in the Caucasus triggered by the Balkans? The Balkans is like a shitbomb, and if people keep poking it's gonna blow shit at everyone's faces - everywhere. Both sides should be in consensus to avoid that. Consensus should be the focus of diplomatic talks in the Balkans. Will they do it? Pffffft...

I suppose the result would be like this : 1.Serbia roaring for while, then in turmoil and despair because noone will do something against indepedent Kosovo (only verbally for week)
2.EU, NATO and other "Western democracies" will acknowledge Kosovo and it would be signal for other to stop crying and accept reality
3.Serbia will not start war or something because it is divided and it would end in another 1999-like war where Serbia would be ultimately decimated because its neighbours are part of EU or Albania or divided Bosnia or "very" friendly Croatia and all of them support Kosovo or would have to, because of overwhelming support (for example like Foreign Minister of Slovakia: We do not support indepedent Kosovo, BUT we will not go against will of EU)

Oh, indeed. There's no way thats not a blanant generalization. Not at all

See reports from KFOR. Google them, there is plenty.


"Part of Serbia" - ie, they both were under control of various other empires. Fail

Part of Serbia as "continuously inhabited by serbian-speaking majority". Just like Italy was Italy even when there was no unitarian italian state, and italian lands were occupied by foreign countries.


(Btw, its "Yugoslavia," not "Jugoslavia". Not meaning to be picky, it just took me a couple seconds to figure out what you meant.)

Funny english renditions... it's Jugoslavija in local languages (and Jugoslavia in italian). Sorry.


You seem to be suffering from this idea that ethnic Albainians suddenly immigranted, en masse, into Kosovo

Partly.
1.Many Albanians actually immigrated into Kosovo, after Tito broke with Stalin and Enver Hoxha created one of the worst regimes ever (even North Korea pales in comparison, for sheer poverty).
2.Shortly before the 1999 war, many albanian-speaking kosovars fled to refugee camps set in northern Albania - just like many serbian-speaking kosovars fled north. I think I remember pretty well that the number of "albanian refugees from Kosovo" living in those refugee camps was about 2 times the figure of albanian-speaking kosovars in the previous population census. The most likely explanation is that many albanians from Albania claimed to be "refugees from Kosovo" to escape the poverty of Albania - at the time in deep economical crisis and on the brink of a civil war between the newly-elected left-wing government led by Fatos Nano and the right-wing opposition led by former (and also current) premier Sali Berisha.


Ah, but that was meant as a temporary resolution. Not an end-all decision
So why the UN doesn't change it officially? Maybe because all parties (this time albanian-Kosovars, serbian-kosovars and Serbia) aren't likely to agree to a change?

The problem is that Kosovo independence means: if you're buddy with the US and EU, you're allowed ethnical cleansing.

Ethnically, they earned the right to it.
Err most people in Kosovo are actually Albanian...
2.EU, NATO and other "Western democracies" will acknowledge Kosovo and it would be signal for other to stop crying and accept reality
I don't think that the EU is going to be so quick to recognise Kosovo, you know.

More or less.
The Albanian Kosovars were a minority in Kosovo until about the '50s. The majority was Serbian Kosovars. Afterwards, the albanian-speaking population grew. Of course, the Serbs who lived in the serbian province of Kosovo had and have the full right to call themselves "Kosovars".

Well, I am not really expert in this matter, but just wanted to point out that then looking population statistics at wiki, it seemed like Albanians had became majority roughly around 1900.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo

This is expected, but bad.

Putin is not on Kosovo's side.

Western Europe and the US are.


And the situation that led to WWI is set up all over again...

Excpet for Russia's (still) occupied with the Cacus (which will blow up if they have to move large troop contingients away from there), NATO is occupied with Afghanistan, and the U.S. is busy with Iraq

And the situation that led to WWI is set up all over again...
Not really, as French-sponsored terrorists have yet to shoot any major European players.

This is expected, but bad.

Putin is not on Kosovo's side.

Western Europe and the US are.


And the situation that led to WWI is set up all over again...

In historical terms, YES. This is also why the UN resolution allowed autonomy for Kosovo WITHIN Serbia, not independence.
Unfortunately, in a place where populations shifted quite quickly in recent history, 'in historical terms' doesn't mean very much.

Indeed. The problem is that Albanian-Kosovars ARE so backward that Serbian-speaking enclaves in Kosovo and Serbian monasteries in Kosovo need constant military protection by the KFOR.
Point being?

With the small difference that Kosovo has been part of Serbia from the Middle Ages till 9 years ago, while the english domination of Northern France lasted less than 200 years and ended about 1700 years ago. Your example fails.
So, how do you objectively decide when a country has held on to a piece of territory long enough to keep it forever regardless of the population living there?

1.If I want to leave a country because I'm not of that country, and have no link thereto, I pack my things and go away. I don't invade that, kick off the previous occupants, and declare a new State.
2.I see how Serbia could effectively control the area. KFOR arrests UCK war criminals. Then, as the UN resolution called, autonomy of Kosovo within Serbia (it means double language - like it was in Jugoslavia's times, multi-ethnical police forces etc).
And what about the Kosovars that don't want to be a part of Serbia? How do you force them to cooperte with a Serbian government they have no links to?

I daresay so. Kosovo should NEVER exist as an independent country, and should NEVER become an EU member.
Come back when you have a workable alternative.

You know they aren't allowed to do so?
Or an election, as in Kosovo. It doesn't really matter which, so long as the legislative body declaring independence has the support of the people.

Also, are you sure that giving the ok to the Serbian part of Bosnia won't trigger another messy war in the Balkans?
So long as the international community is sensible about it, I don't think another war is inevitable at all.

Let's just keep what was agreed between the sides thanks to the UN, shall we?
Well, I'll keep something that's actually going to work.

Come back when you have a workable alternative [to full independance]
Have it as an autonomous region, like when Yugoslavia was still around. Worked fine.

Have it as an autonomous region, like when Yugoslavia was still around. Worked fine.

Your grasp of the Yugoslav problem is feeble.

Have it as an autonomous region, like when Yugoslavia was still around. Worked fine.
Situation has changed, I think. Yugoslavia was a dictatorship that could and did prevent dissent from any minority group that demanded secession, and any autonomy that existed on paper could be prevented in practice. Now that independence is possible in a relatively free and democratic Balkans, and that Kosovo has been de facto independent for nearly a decade, I don't see how or why independence can be prevented. Autonomy will only work if Kosovo wants it, which it clearly doesn't.

Err most people in Kosovo are actually Albanian...


Yes, but still is better than a majority of ethnic serbians. Under that case independence would be a lot more pointless than it already is now. Why should a region with 4% serbians be a province of Serbia? I guess the issue is if they actually want that.

Well actually that's not the point, the Kosovo leadership themselves say they want a multi-ethnic Kosovo, I personally think ethnic nationalism is a nasty we should best leave to the past, especially in the former Yugoslavia.

Agreed. Fuck ethnic nationalism.

Yes, but still is better than a majority of ethnic serbians. Under that case independence would be a lot more pointless than it already is now. Why should a region with 4% serbians be a province of Serbia? I guess the issue is if they actually want that.

Well actually that's not the point, the Kosovo leadership themselves say they want a multi-ethnic Kosovo, I personally think ethnic nationalism is a nasty we should best leave to the past, especially in the former Yugoslavia.

Hahahaa. Kosovo is like the naughty child that was always spanked, and then wanted to run away. Sure, it might get independence, but its not likely they will be able to stand on their own two feet. Failed state status with in 10 years at most, would be my guess.

Your grasp of the Yugoslav problem is feeble.
Not really, no.

That the Kosovans think that independence will solve anything is completely ridiculous. It's going to be a nation in serious debt to everyone, with serious ethnic tensions between every group, that every other Balkan state isn't going to want to help.
Situation has changed, I think.
Politically, yes, in terms of the natural resources of Kosovo, no.
Yugoslavia was a dictatorship that could and did prevent dissent from any minority group that demanded secession, and any autonomy that existed on paper could be prevented in practice.
Kosovo actually had quite a lot of regional power, it was only after the breakup and Milosevic coming to power in Serbia that they became a repressed state.

The reason that Kosovo had strong regional powers was actually to weaken Serbia, because, in the words of Tito, a weak Serbia meant a strong Yugoslavia. Serbia could easily have been the strongest power in Yugoslavia, due to its natural resources, but that wasn't really wanted by anyone at the top.

To keep unity in Yugoslavia, everyone had to be in a crap state, including Serbia. So that's how it was.
Now that independence is possible in a relatively free and democratic Balkans, and that Kosovo has been de facto independent for nearly a decade, I don't see how or why independence can be prevented. Autonomy will only work if Kosovo wants it, which it clearly doesn't.
Kosovo has been de facto independent of Serbia for nearly a decade, during which the standard of living has dropped despite fairly sensible management.

A government whose figurehead was only voted in because he is the ex-leader of a group that killed off 10,000 Serbs on ethnic grounds is not going to be quite as effective at governing a fledgling state with absolutely no economic potential, methinks.

Why should a region with 4% serbians be a province of Serbia?
Because that's the only way that it's going to exist, on absolutely pragmatic grounds.

This is expected, but bad.

Putin is not on Kosovo's side.

Western Europe and the US are.


And the situation that led to WWI is set up all over again...

Whut?
There was no UN then, few if any monarchy governments (with the exception of the Bush family, and the attempt of the Clinton family).
Better economic situations, better education systems now.
I doubt the whole of Europe would get involved with a war in the Balkans again.

Politically, yes, in terms of the natural resources of Kosovo, no.
Since when did natural resources become a part of this discusion?

Kosovo actually had quite a lot of regional power, it was only after the breakup and Milosevic coming to power in Serbia that they became a repressed state.

The reason that Kosovo had strong regional powers was actually to weaken Serbia, because, in the words of Tito, a weak Serbia meant a strong Yugoslavia. Serbia could easily have been the strongest power in Yugoslavia, due to its natural resources, but that wasn't really wanted by anyone at the top.

To keep unity in Yugoslavia, everyone had to be in a crap state, including Serbia. So that's how it was.
It may have had regional power in the Yugoslav communist era. But had the Kosovars wanted to declare independence, they would have been prevended from doing so by the communist government. Therefore to say that autonomy worked then only works insofar as a dictatorship works, rather than a democratic state envisaged by the international community.

Kosovo has been de facto independent of Serbia for nearly a decade, during which the standard of living has dropped despite fairly sensible management.

A government whose figurehead was only voted in because he is the ex-leader of a group that killed off 10,000 Serbs on ethnic grounds is not going to be quite as effective at governing a fledgling state with absolutely no economic potential, methinks.
If that's who the Kosovars want, that's their choice. Arguably it is just as irresponsible to put someone who can't pronounce 'nuclear' in charge of the world's most powerful country, but there's no accounting for taste with democracy, is there?

Because that's the only way that it's going to exist, on absolutely pragmatic grounds.
Pragmatically, I can't see any way short of force to make Kosovo a province of Serbia.

More or less.
The Albanian Kosovars were a minority in Kosovo until about the '50s. The majority was Serbian Kosovars. Afterwards, the albanian-speaking population grew. Of course, the Serbs who lived in the serbian province of Kosovo had and have the full right to call themselves "Kosovars".


by the way, do you know why it's "Kosovo"? It comes from "Kosovo Polje" (spell?), that is, in Serbian, "Blackbirds' Plain" - where the Serbian knights sacrificed themselves in a reckless (and, as a matter of fact, mostly useless) charge against the Ottomans. Guess why it's name is Serbian, not Albanian...

trust me, this shit isn't going to end well. too much of the serbian identity and of the international rule of law is a stake, and both US and EU are acting recklessly, just to show Russia that they are allowed to ignore UN resolutions.
I agree with this 100%.

I agree with this 100%.

Of course you do.

Frankly, I support Kosovan independence. They deserve their independence and I am in full support of my government's actions to support their claim.

Of course you do.

Frankly, I support Kosovan independence. They deserve their independence and I am in full support of my government's actions to support their claim.
No. It's unfair to Serbia. Just because Albanians have used a demographic bomb on that area and become the majority (only recently) does NOT mean that it is any less Serbian...even more considering the fact that that area is filled with Serbian historical and cultural significance.

It would be like if Cubans came to Miami and then became the demographic majority in that area and then tried to have South Florida declare independence.

YOU KNOW that shit wouldn't fly with America....so why is this case any different?

Just because Albanians have used a demographic bomb on that area?
What the bleedin’ hell is a ‘demographic bomb’?

Also, it's my understanding that Albanians have been the ethnic majority for a good 200 years. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo#Demographics), and the rest of the article.

No. It's unfair to Serbia. Just because Albanians have used a demographic bomb on that area and become the majority (only recently) does NOT mean that it is any less Serbian...even more considering the fact that that area is filled with Serbian historical and cultural significance.

It would be like if Cubans came to Miami and then became the demographic majority in that area and then tried to have South Florida declare independence.

I agree with you, and from a pragmatic stand point we just pissed off the Russians ridiculously

expect abzhakia to make a move in the next few weeks

Kosovo is a joke. Hopefully no one will bother with this attention-whoring. Or Serbia just whoops their ass. Well, if the US and Britain and NATO didn't stick their nose in...

I find the hypocrisy interesting. They support Yugoslavia being split into 9000 countries, but not Iraq...

if the kosovars have the right to become independant, why cant the basques? the EU should look in their own back yard before ploughing into the balkans

Maybe it's because the Spanish military doesn't openly slaughter the Basque people or send in warplanes to bomb villages?

Just a guess.

Since when did natural resources become a part of this discusion?

Kosovo's natural resources, such as the rich Trepca mines and its location for moving oil from the Caspian Sea to energy-hungry Western states (as well as preventing Russia from competing in the oil market, hence the obliteration of Serbia's oil industry by bombings), were a prime reason for the invasion. (Hence the focus on turning Kosovo into a 'market' economy, in which companies could gain a windfall from UNMIK's distribution of state-owned assets.)

What the bleedin’ hell is a ‘demographic bomb’?
You have to imagine this like an amoeba. When it wants to move somewhere, it extends a piece of it and fills it with cell matter until it has grown into that direction.

When the swarthy hivemind wants to move somewhere, it does the same thing.

Maybe it's because the Spanish military doesn't openly slaughter the Basque people or send in warplanes to bomb villages?

Just a guess.

injustice does not entitle a people to a nation

Because that's the only way that it's going to exist, on absolutely pragmatic grounds.

Really sounds like an excuse to keep tied Kosovo to Serbia AGAINST kosovan will. Of course, Serbia knows what's best for Kosovo, right? Oh yeah it doesn't matter if Serbia only wants Kosovo for its nationalist pride, or if ethnic albanians don't stand a chance in a serbian Kosovo, as long as Serbia pays Kosovo's bills, whatever they do is right.

Schrandtopia;13460643']injustice does not entitle a people to a nation
Tell that to the Israelis. ;)

YOU KNOW that shit wouldn't fly with America....so why is this case any different?

Because Cubans arent the targets of Genocide in South Florida, for starters.

Kosovo is a joke. Hopefully no one will bother with this attention-whoring. Or Serbia just whoops their ass. Well, if the US and Britain and NATO didn't stick their nose in...

I find the hypocrisy interesting. They support Yugoslavia being split into 9000 countries, but not Iraq...

Yugoslavia was created after the end of World War I when the Entente powers broke up the Austo-Hungarian empire. Even then the Balkans were recognized as a serious power keg of various ethnic groups that all hated each other.

So they just tossed them all into one country in a "sweep the dust under the rug" kind of deal. We've been paying for it since, much like we've been paying for doing the same to Iraq.

Tell that to the Israelis. ;)

gladly



this is the politics of victimization and it is stupid, either the Jews/Albanians/East Jibipians or who ever warrent a homeland or they don't, that should change because people do or do not like them

everyone likes the canadians, no one has ever tried to kill them off - does that mean they shouldn't have a state?

Because Cubans arent the targets of Genocide in South Florida, for starters.

boooooo

you don't get a country just becasue people don't like you

Schrandtopia;13460699']boooooo

you don't get a country just becasue people don't like you

Genocide is a little bit more than "people just not liking you." We're talking about people being killed for no other reason than belonging to a specific ethnic group, something they have absolutely no control over.

The simple fact is that the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo are not getting along with the Serbians. I agree that Serbia has a claim to the land itself, but we have to look at this logically. Is Serbia's land claim really more important than the people themselves?

I don't think it is. I think the right--concept or what have you--of people to live their lives is far more important than any land claim. That's why I support Kosovo's independence.

Schrandtopia;13460699']boooooo

you don't get a country just becasue people don't like you




Really? Genocide is just "people not liking you"?


Oh my...

I for one support the total unification of all people on earth, but that is a long-term goal. This is a positive step short-term for two reasons, for one, it will lessen oppression in the world, and two, it will anger Russia, which means more interesting news.


I have to agree, I do like it when Russia gets pissed off, just because Putin is a little bitch when thwarted.

The simple fact is that the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo are not getting along with the Serbians.


neither do the Albanians and the Macedonians in Northern Albania, neither do the Germans and the Italians in northern Italy, neither do the Italians and the blacks in my city

where would it end?

I have to agree, I do like it when Russia gets pissed off, just because Putin is a little bitch when thwarted.

thwarted? are you kidding me? this is just the begining of him fucking with us

he has dozens of angles to come back at us

I have to agree, I do like it when Russia gets pissed off, just because Putin is a little bitch when thwarted.

I love it when the Russians get pissed off to. :D

Angering Russia for the sake of interesting news is not exactly the brightest of ideas...

I know I was mostly joking.

I for one support the total unification of all people on earth, but that is a long-term goal. This is a positive step short-term for two reasons, for one, it will lessen oppression in the world, and two, it will anger Russia, which means more interesting news.

Angering Russia for the sake of interesting news is not exactly the brightest of ideas...

Angering Russia for the sake of interesting news is not exactly the brightest of ideas...

Well, it's very useful for debate tournaments, we can reject any affirmative plan because it would increase US influence at the expense of Russia, leading to war. So it's very good in the short term.

I sure as hell don't want us stuck in a pointless war in Europe on top of the pointless war in Iraq. Didn't we just go through this sort of mess a decade ago under "Little Willy" Clinton? Let Kosovo be an independent nation. Let them decide their own destiny. And let's keep NATO out of it.

I sure as hell don't want us stuck in a pointless war in Europe on top of the pointless war in Iraq. Didn't we just go through this sort of mess a decade ago under "Little Willy" Clinton? Let Kosovo be an independent nation. Let them decide their own destiny. And let's keep NATO out of it.

If NATO stays out of it Kosovo will be crushed by Serbia, who will be funded by the Russians. It's not in our best interest or the Kosovans best interest for us to stay out, especially since they're ASKING for our help.

If NATO stays out of it Kosovo will be crushed by Serbia, who will be funded by the Russians. It's not in our best interest or the Kosovans best interest for us to stay out, especially since they're ASKING for our help.

eh, the had autonomy under the yugoslav federation

it is possible to broaker a deal between them a leave

I have an honest question and one (or more) lucky posters have a chance to do something that is not usually possible.

Change my mind.

As it stands I'm for Serbian control of their country and not for areas of the country which historically, culturally and linguistically (look at the name of Kosovo) have been Serbian....but I've been thinking, aside from Russia being the protector of it's Balkan brothers (Serbia in this case), is there any strategic loss for Russia if Kosovo declares independence? Any geo-political gain for America and the West and a loss for Russia if Kosovo becomes independent?

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7248446.stm)

About time I say. The Kosovan people have been through enough of a struggle.

Does anyone still have the good old picture of the guy with his hand on his head and the caption "Not this shit again." ?

is there any strategic loss for Russia if Kosovo declares independence?

Russia is against it because Russia has similar issues with its federations (I bet everyone has heard of Chechnya)

Schrandtopia;13460740']neither do the Albanians and the Macedonians in Northern Albania, neither do the Germans and the Italians in northern Italy, neither do the Italians and the blacks in my city


Actually the german-speakers in Südtirol/Alto Adige (the italian Province of Bozen/Bolzano) get along quite better with the italian-speakers, the ladin-speakers and the italian State since the creation of the Regioni (provisions were made in 1948, and they were enacted in 1970). The autonome province of Bozen/Bolzano enjoys wide autonomy, local language protection, and permanence of most of the taxes on their own territory - all within the special statute of the autonomous region of Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol.
This is why I support autonomies vs independence in most cases. I have a good example of different ethnicities getting along, less than 200 km away from my home.

Also, take the Swiss Canton of the Grisons (Kanton Graubünden/Chantun Grischun/Cantone dei Grigioni): tri-lingual state (german, rumantsch, italian), strong "cantonal" unity and pride, strong pride in being part of the helvetic confederation.

Btw, do not call "German" a Südtiroler: they pride themselves in being Tiroler, and even the most extreme separatist fringes, like the Schützen, would never dream of joing Germany: they would like to rejoin Tirol, either as part of the Austrian Federal Republic or as autonomous State.

Maybe it's because the Spanish military doesn't openly slaughter the Basque people or send in warplanes to bomb villages?

Actually I remember NATO warplanes bombing Kosovo, Yugoslavia and even refugees, both albanian-speakers and serbian-speakers.

Also, remember that:
The Yugoslavian government sent POLICE special-forces teams to counter the UCK. That is, like SWAT teams, or the italian Celere (anti-riot) police teams.
Instead, the US government sent MILITARY forces, complete with tanks, to extinguish the Los Angeles riots.

Double standards? Nooooooo.... ;)

Also, does here someone other than me remember that in early 1999 the Yugoslav government asked the UN and the OSCE to send international observers to Kosovo... and that the Albanian separatists of Kosovo, Albania and the US denied such request?

sure kosovo "should" be indipendent. so should tibet, hawaii, puerto rico, scotland, cyprus, and probably others, and myanmar shouldn't be being terrorized by a military government funded by standard oil.

the u.s. itself 'should' probably be a loose economic union of otherwise indipendent nations.

the list of soverign inequities in this world is a rather long one.
virtually every modern government, whatever its form or idiology, was established by the morally reprehensible reality of bloodshed against indiginous victums. very very few exceptions, and those seldom in favor with the iron fist of corporate economic interests.

=^^=
.../\...

Unfortunately, in a place where populations shifted quite quickly in recent history, 'in historical terms' doesn't mean very much.
They meant to the UN and all the parties involved when everybody agreed to the


Point being?

Are you being deliberately slow? Point is that Serbs and serbian heritages in Kosovo need continuous protection from violence and attempts at further ethnical cleansing coming from the albanian side.


So, how do you objectively decide when a country has held on to a piece of territory long enough to keep it forever regardless of the population living there?

Simply. There is the UN. The borders of Serbia have been recognised as INCLUDING KOSOVO by the UN.


And what about the Kosovars that don't want to be a part of Serbia? How do you force them to cooperte with a Serbian government they have no links to?

International police force, plus local autonomy instead of unilateral independence.
And what about the Kosovars who don't want to be ruled by the Albanians, or to become a part of Greater Albania?


Come back when you have a workable alternative.

Done.


Or an election, as in Kosovo. It doesn't really matter which, so long as the legislative body declaring independence has the support of the people.

Problem is that there is no "single" people. The albanian-speakers don't look on the serbian-speakers as "rightfully" kosovars, nor do the serbian-speakers look on the albanian-speakers as "rightfully" kosovars either.


So long as the international community is sensible about it, I don't think another war is inevitable at all.

Meh. The international community agreed to a war against the whole Yugoslavia back in 1999 because they "cared". Sending international observers (as requested by the Yugoslav government) and eventually a peace-keeping force would have been a more sensible approach. Or even having the air raids targeting just the serbian forces in Kosovo. Instead, NATO choose to launch terror bombings against civilian targets on all of Yugoslavia - including bridges, power factories etc.

Since when did natural resources become a part of this discusion?
Since that was a particularly excellent reason for Kosovo to stick with Serbia, I thought it had some relevance to the situation. Kosovo cannot, and will not, be an economically successful state. The ECB might be forced to give them loans on extremely good terms, as will the US, but how that's actually going to do anything other than prolong the whole affair is a different matter.
It may have had regional power in the Yugoslav communist era. But had the Kosovars wanted to declare independence, they would have been prevended from doing so by the communist government. Therefore to say that autonomy worked then only works insofar as a dictatorship works, rather than a democratic state envisaged by the international community.
Not really, seeing as there are autonomous, or at least semi-autonomous regions inside democratic, Western European nations.

If they weren't being tragically optimistic, they'd probably realise that some level of regional autonomy under Serbia was a Better Idea.
If that's who the Kosovars want, that's their choice. Arguably it is just as irresponsible to put someone who can't pronounce 'nuclear' in charge of the world's most powerful country
Indeed it is irresponsible.

That it being their choice makes it fundamentally a good idea is, however, equally fundamentally wrong.
but there's no accounting for taste with democracy, is there?
Quite. That's why I don't like it all that much.
Pragmatically, I can't see any way short of force to make Kosovo a province of Serbia.
When Kosovo utterly collapses due to a complete lack of economic potential in the region, we'll see why it should have remained a part of Serbia.

Since that was a particularly excellent reason for Kosovo to stick with Serbia, I thought it had some relevance to the situation. Kosovo cannot, and will not, be an economically successful state. The ECB might be forced to give them loans on extremely good terms, as will the US, but how that's actually going to do anything other than prolong the whole affair is a different matter.
It may well have been a good reason for Kosovo to stick with Serbia. It may well have a good reason for Montrenegro to stick in union with Serbia. If other small countries in Eastern Europe can develop successful economies after the fall of the USSR, I see no reason why Kosovo cannot do the same. Modern European economies are more based on services than extracting natural resources.

Not really, seeing as there are autonomous, or at least semi-autonomous regions inside democratic, Western European nations.
Who want to be inside these other nations. Kosovars don't. As I said: having Kosovo in Serbia might have worked in a dictatorship, but not in a functioning democracy.

If they weren't being tragically optimistic, they'd probably realise that some level of regional autonomy under Serbia was a Better Idea.
Probably.

Indeed it is irresponsible.

That it being their choice makes it fundamentally a good idea is, however, equally fundamentally wrong.
How else do you suggest countries be run then?

Quite. That's why I don't like it all that much.
Well, that's a different discussion, is it not.

When Kosovo utterly collapses due to a complete lack of economic potential in the region, we'll see why it should have remained a part of Serbia.
Kosovo is in a poor state, but I doubt it will get any poorer, it is already economically and politically independent of Serbia, and now its constitutional status is resolved, it might well get the stability needed for foreign investment to happen. Using military force to put Kosovo in Serbia (which it would have required) would do far more damage to the economy of the region than independence.

If other small countries in Eastern Europe can develop successful economies after the fall of the USSR, I see no reason why Kosovo cannot do the same. Modern European economies are more based on services than extracting natural resources.

...still, Kosovo is far smaller than the other post-soviet-era countries, and it's got lots of mining. It will become soon a prey of mining corporations.

...still, Kosovo is far smaller than the other post-soviet-era countries, and it's got lots of mining. It will become soon a prey of mining corporations.
Kosovo: Population 2,200,000
Montenegro: Population 600,000
Latvia: Population 2,270,700
Estonia: Population 1,342,409

'Far smaller' isn't the term I'd use.

And are you seriously suggesting that countries with large amounts of mineral wealth all be put under the 'protection' of larger countries lest they fall victim to the evil mining corporations? If Kosovo needs 'protection' then why not other countries with mineral wealth?

Kosovo: Population 2,200,000
Montenegro: Population 600,000
Latvia: Population 2,270,700
Estonia: Population 1,342,409

'Far smaller' isn't the term I'd use.

You're right. Small, yet not that small.


And are you seriously suggesting that countries with large amounts of mineral wealth all be put under the 'protection' of larger countries lest they fall victim to the evil mining corporations?
I never said that. I simply stated that Kosovo will be prey of mining corps.

I simply stated that Kosovo will be prey of mining corps.
Which of course will have precisely as much power as the government will give them. So really, if the place will become the prey of anyone, it will be their own politicians.

Bush recognizes Kosovo's independence (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/rss/topstories/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080218/ap_on_re_af/bush_kosovo)

ARUSHA, Tanzania - President Bush on Monday hailed Kosovo's bold and historic bid for statehood, saying "The Kosovars are now independent."

Congrats Bush on doing the right thing.

Why's it the right thing, or better yet, how is it moreso the right thing than not recognizing its independence?

Because they deserve it and have wanted it for a long time.

Bush recognizes Kosovo's independence (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/rss/topstories/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080218/ap_on_re_af/bush_kosovo)



Congrats Bush on doing the right thing.Why's it the right thing, or better yet, how is it moreso the right thing than not recognizing its independence?

Kosovo has never been a costituent nation of the Jugoslav Federation. Kosovo was an autonome province of Serbia. The costituents were six: Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro and Macedonia.

I know this was from a few pages ago, pretty irrelevant to the current discussion, but I have to say I am very well aware Kosovo has never been a nation. That's... Well sort of why it's only declaring independence now...

I never said it was a constituent nation, just a "part" of the former Yugoslavia.

Because they deserve it and have wanted it for a long time.Why do they deserve it?

You're right. Small, yet not that small.
Small countries with open economies tend to do well in Europe, but it does depend on the government of Kosovo making the necessary reforms.

I never said that. I simply stated that Kosovo will be prey of mining corps.
Then what do you mean by that? One would have thought that investment in Kosovo would be a good thing, whether it be in Serbia or not.

It may well have been a good reason for Kosovo to stick with Serbia. It may well have a good reason for Montrenegro to stick in union with Serbia. If other small countries in Eastern Europe can develop successful economies after the fall of the USSR, I see no reason why Kosovo cannot do the same. Modern European economies are more based on services than extracting natural resources.
... The Eastern European states are in a staggeringly shit state economically, and I have no earthly idea why they wanted to join the EU, which is a free trade agreement, other than to get a whole heap of European money.
Who want to be inside these other nations. Kosovars don't. As I said: having Kosovo in Serbia might have worked in a dictatorship, but not in a functioning democracy.
ETA much?
How else do you suggest countries be run then?
In the Balkans?

Like Yugoslavia, but without the communist element. Otherwise you get a whole load of petty ethnic wars, and nobody likes that. Better to hate the well-defended, heavily armed state for being repressive than to hate the comparatively defenseless next village along because it's full of Albanians, no?
Well, that's a different discussion, is it not.
I suppose so, yes.
Kosovo is in a poor state, but I doubt it will get any poorer, it is already economically and politically independent of Serbia, and now its constitutional status is resolved, it might well get the stability needed for foreign investment to happen. Using military force to put Kosovo in Serbia (which it would have required) would do far more damage to the economy of the region than independence.
We shall see. A government whose prime minister was intimately involved in setting up a part of the Kosovan Mafia is going to have to do a lot to prove that its country is worth investing in.
...still, Kosovo is far smaller than the other post-soviet-era countries, and it's got lots of mining. It will become soon a prey of mining corporations.
Actually, more than the mining, you can bet that the US is going to use the new found friendly government to station that anti-missile defenses in Kosovo, which is even more in need of money than Poland, and hates Russia even more.

if the kosovars have the right to become independant, why cant the basques? the EU should look in their own back yard before ploughing into the balkans

Actually this RL event woke me up and nudged me to come here to read what various people who play NS might think about this. :)

Your point is fair. Wikipedia's article about nations recognizing and not recognizing Kosovo's independence pointed out that Canada is likely to wait it out due to Quebec. The same is true of many nations.

There is a part of me that feels, why not?

Bush recognizes Kosovo's independence (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/rss/topstories/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080218/ap_on_re_af/bush_kosovo)



Congrats Bush on doing the right thing.




I think he jumped the gun. I think a wait and see approach would have been far more beneficial.


I think this is just another volley of his in his latest spat with Tsar Vladmir Putin I

Yes, why shouldn't immigrants from your bordering country kick you off the territory belonging to your country since ever?

Some facts:
1.Have you ever been in Kosovo? I did. It's full (or at least it was before the coming of the UCK) of medieval serbian monasteries. That land was - historically - Serbia.?
Yes, if you go back 500 years. But the Serbs haven't been more than a small percentage of the population any time recently. The Serbs are in the position of the "Israelis", and the Albanians in the position of the "Palestinians", except that after Serbia re-occupied the territory during the 1911-12 Balkan Wars, they didn't bother to plant many settlers.

If they weren't being tragically optimistic, they'd probably realise that some level of regional autonomy under Serbia was a Better Idea.
They WERE an autonomous region (local control of their own schools, police forces, etc.) under Serbia, until Milosevic violently suppressed their autonomy.

They WERE an autonomous region (local control of their own schools, police forces, etc.) under Serbia, until Milosevic violently suppressed their autonomy.
Milosevic is gone and I don't see why they couldn't try autonomy again.

sure kosovo "should" be indipendent. so should tibet, hawaii, puerto rico, scotland, cyprus, and probably others, and myanmar shouldn't be being terrorized by a military government funded by standard oil.
Huh? :confused:


the list of soverign inequities in this world is a rather long one.
virtually every modern government, whatever its form or idiology, was established by the morally reprehensible reality of bloodshed against indiginous victums.


Erm, no?

This post made me head hurt. :(

Kosovo's natural resources, such as the rich Trepca mines and its location for moving oil from the Caspian Sea to energy-hungry Western states
:D Try looking at a map, would you? That would be one crazed pipeline!

Milosevic is gone and I don't see why they couldn't try autonomy again.
Because the level of mutual trust is absolute zero.

I think he jumped the gun. I think a wait and see approach would have been far more beneficial.


I think this is just another volley of his in his latest spat with Tsar Vladmir Putin I

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080218/ap_on_re_eu/kosovo_independence;_ylt=AtYAu6SD1QDG4nigevnhPE.s0NUE

Its official:

PRISTINA, Kosovo - The U.S. and major European powers recognized Kosovo on Monday, a day after the province's ethnic Albanian leaders declared independence from Serbia. Giddy Kosovars danced in the streets when they heard of the endorsements.

Kosovo's leaders sent letters to 192 countries seeking formal recognition and Britain, France, Germany and U.S. were among the countries that backed the request. But other European Union nations were opposed, including Spain which has battled a violent Basque separatist movement for decades.

Huh? :confused:

Notice Hawaii is on that list too? Hawaii is a state in the Union with representation in Congress. :D

Puerto Rico though has had votes on statehood but have rejected it time and again but they have also voted to stay as a territory of the United States too.

Cyprus being on that list though made me laugh.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080218/ap_on_re_eu/kosovo_independence;_ylt=AtYAu6SD1QDG4nigevnhPE.s0NUE

Its official:

Well than pehaps the wait and see was not needed.

Kosovo has never been a costituent nation of the Jugoslav Federation. Kosovo was an autonome province of Serbia. The costituents were six: Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro and Macedonia.
Those six were the republics, but Kosovo and the Vojvodina were autonomous regions. Will we see a secession movement by the Vojvodines next? Not likely: that region has substantial Hungarian and Rumanian minorities, but is majority Serb.

:D Try looking at a map, would you? That would be one crazed pipeline!

Then please, please explain why BILLIONS have been invested near the Caspian Sea in Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, and Turkmenistan by Western oil companies, and why TRACECA (Transport Corridor Europe-Caucasus-Asia) and INOGATE (Interstate Oil and Gas Transport to Europe) exist, and why SYNERGY worked together with Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia and Albania to transport oil to Europe from the Caspian (along with such corporations as the Albanian Macedonian Bulgarian Oil Pipeline Corp. and a veritable alphabet soup of intergovernment organizations), instead of spewing your snide ignorance, would you?

Then please, please explain why BILLIONS have been invested near the Caspian Sea in Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, and Turkmenistan
Those countries, in fact, ARE near the Caspian Sea. Kosovo is as close to the Caspian Sea as Michigan is to the Caribbean.

<sigh>

I miss the Austro-Hungarian Empire.



Alright, so my tongue is at least partially in cheek, and Kosovo would have been Ottoman rather than Hapsburg anyway, but a part of me thinks that large multi-ethnic democratic states with no single dominant ethnicity, where the various ethno-linguistic components counterbalance each other, might be undervalued compared to the fracturing of various parts of the world along increasingly micro-ethnic lines.

For example, isn't India probably better off as a single large and influential entitity than it would be if it consisted of thousands of Kosovos.

And why independence for Kosovo - and Moldova for that matter - when there's a neighbouring state which already represents the ethnicity in question; we're not really all quaking in fear of a greater Albania (or greater Romania in Moldova's case) are we? Unless we're worried about an Albanian Hitler successfully calling for the annexation of the Sudentenland Albanians of Macedonia and Montenegro.


As to the earlier point in this thread about why not independence for the Basques now that Kosovo is independent, the answer is simple. A democratic majority of Kosovars favour independence from Serbia (leaving aside the technical problems there for a moment). There is no democratic majority in favour of Basque independence; autonomy, yes, but independence no. The two situations are therefore not directly analogous.

A better comparison would be Russia and Chechnya (which doesn't stop the Russians interfering in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, mind).

Kosovo is part of Serbia. End. Of. Story. I hope countries won't recognise this childish behaviour and the Serbians go in straighten this out.

What decade wouldnt be complete with something getting f****d up in the Balkans. Yay for 2008!

No, but seriously, it really is Kosovo's perogative to declare independence especially given how crappy Serbia has treated them, this may never have progressed so far if they hadnt been treated like 2nd class citizens. But, whatever, all this means is another war and a chance for Putin to blow up the world and seize "emergency powers" (not that I believe it will happen, but the Balkans tend to bring out the pessimistic side of me).

Kosovo is part of Serbia. End. Of. Story. I hope countries won't recognise this childish behaviour and the Serbians go in straighten this out.

To late!

United States has already done so.
Britain is doing so as well
France is in the process as is Germany

The list can be found here:

Nations that have/planning to/will not recognize Kosovo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence#States_that_formally_recognise _the_independent_Republic_of_Kosovo)

... The Eastern European states are in a staggeringly shit state economically, and I have no earthly idea why they wanted to join the EU, which is a free trade agreement, other than to get a whole heap of European money.
They've got better economic growth rates than Western Europe. The reason they want free trade is that they've got low tax rates and labour costs and are good for investment from other European states - and it's not working too badly in most.

ETA much?
An argument against autonomy for Kosovo, no?

In the Balkans?

Like Yugoslavia, but without the communist element. Otherwise you get a whole load of petty ethnic wars, and nobody likes that. Better to hate the well-defended, heavily armed state for being repressive than to hate the comparatively defenseless next village along because it's full of Albanians, no?
And we know how the last Yugoslav dictatorship turned out...

We shall see. A government whose prime minister was intimately involved in setting up a part of the Kosovan Mafia is going to have to do a lot to prove that its country is worth investing in.
The same guy would be in power whether Kosovo is in Serbia or independent. Either way, stability whether it be under autonomy or independence, is what is needed to get the Kosovo economy on track.

<sigh>

I miss the Austro-Hungarian Empire.



Alright, so my tongue is at least partially in cheek, and Kosovo would have been Ottoman rather than Hapsburg anyway, but a part of me thinks that large multi-ethnic democratic states with no single dominant ethnicity, where the various ethno-linguistic components counterbalance each other, might be undervalued compared to the fracturing of various parts of the world along increasingly micro-ethnic lines.

For example, isn't India probably better off as a single large and influential entitity than it would be if it consisted of thousands of Kosovos.

And why independence for Kosovo - and Moldova for that matter - when there's a neighbouring state which already represents the ethnicity in question; we're not really all quaking in fear of a greater Albania (or greater Romania in Moldova's case) are we? Unless we're worried about an Albanian Hitler successfully calling for the annexation of the Sudentenland Albanians of Macedonia and Montenegro.


As to the earlier point in this thread about why not independence for the Basques now that Kosovo is independent, the answer is simple. A democratic majority of Kosovars favour independence from Serbia (leaving aside the technical problems there for a moment). There is no democratic majority in favour of Basque independence; autonomy, yes, but independence no. The two situations are therefore not directly analogous.

A better comparison would be Russia and Chechnya (which doesn't stop the Russians interfering in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, mind).

:)

Did the Austrian-Hungarian Empire make it as far south as Kosovo?

I totally agree with your point about India, where there are numerous smaller ethnic groups, having more international economic and political sway as a single nation as opposed to a group of smaller nations built on ethnic lines.

But with that in mind, wouldn't the Indias, United States, and Frances of the world like to see potential larger states toss away their power and subdivide?


Now, the reason we aren't going to see new states that share an ethnic majority with another neighboring state move on over is part political. If Kosovo is to remain independent, then it might seem more self determination. But if it were to simply join with Albania, then the move would seem like an Albanian land grab. This doesn't rule out eventual unification ... but all of these types of changes need to take place on a glacial time-scale that diplomats are capable of comprehending: if it is too fast for the UN, slow down. ;)

It'd start a war if it joined Albania right now, but since Serbia looks less like a turd on the map, it is fine.

<sigh>

I miss the Austro-Hungarian Empire.



That's the whole reason we have this mess, people get arbitrarily put into countries with other people they don't like :p

They've got better economic growth rates than Western Europe.
Unsurprising. If I was given a tenner now, my growth rates would look impressive when matched to a millionaire.
The reason they want free trade is that they've got low tax rates and labour costs and are good for investment from other European states - and it's not working too badly in most.
What's actually happened is that there's a complete brain-drain going on, as highly skilled workers from Eastern Europe bugger off to the West to earn more. Yeah, fine, this economic investment is spiffing in the short term, but they're quite fucked in the long run.
An argument against autonomy for Kosovo, no?
Not really, more an argument against arbritrary secession.
And we know how the last Yugoslav dictatorship turned out...
Yes, we do. It was going fine, with none of this ethnic cleansing business, and then Tito died, causing a crash in the economy which was then blamed on whoever was nearby, leading to the deaths of thousands of people.

Which was kind of rubbish.
The same guy would be in power whether Kosovo is in Serbia or independent.
Aye, on the other hand he couldn't really fuck up Kosovo quite so much, seeing as it was a) being run mainly by the UN, and b) somewhat protected by Serbia.
Either way, stability whether it be under autonomy or independence, is what is needed to get the Kosovo economy on track.
That, also magic.

Next step, announcing freedom from capitalist oppressors.
That would be an interesting juxtaposition, given that Montenegro is one of the most economically free nations in Europe.

Maybe Im just a paranoid American, but it worries me when Russia and China agree.
Yes, you are a paranoid American. Stop being stupid.

That's the whole reason we have this mess, people get arbitrarily put into countries with other people they don't like :p

Ethnic profiles in countries change over time, with or without the effect of rubber political boundaries. Case in point: the United States -- the Hispanic population is growing much faster in my home state of California than the "white" or African-American populations. The Asian population is holding its own, not through domestic birth rates, but rather through steady immigration. Given the generally strong Catholic following of this group, hot political issues such as abortion and gay marriage will likely become even more debated (which drives me nuts ... I'd rather people address other issues long before those).

Maybe Im just a paranoid American, but it worries me when Russia and China agree (China has also said that they will not recognize Kosovo).

At least Western Europe is on the same page as the US this time. It also worries me when the US does stupid shit on its own (recognizing Kosovo's Ind. is not stupid, but I suspect our motives are just to fuck with Putin, which is stupid).

Yes, you are a paranoid American. Stop being stupid.

I just dont wanna die:p;)

Maybe Im just a paranoid American, but it worries me when Russia and China agree (China has also said that they will not recognize Kosovo).

At least Western Europe is on the same page as the US this time. It also worries me when the US does stupid shit on its own (recognizing Kosovo's Ind. is not stupid, but I suspect our motives are just to fuck with Putin, which is stupid).

China has to take an official hard line stance denying self-proclaimed declarations of independence, because it:

1) Is still controlling Tibet,
2) Would like to control Taiwan,
3) Generally is far from democratic ... so a "we elected" [anything] looks pretty democratic.

NATO has been policing the region since the UN mission pretty much dried up. With that in mind, the Netherlands, Belgium, and possibly some of the Nordic states will be voting whatever they feel will cost them less in international peacekeeping in the long run. Having a quasi-autonomous state for another 50-years isn't gonna do the US Dollar or Euro any good.

This now gives us reason #4 China isn't gonna be happy about this ... it sets up the possibility that NATO will eventually be able to pull out and direct its attentions elsewhere.

In the case of Kosovo, I think independence in the long-run is a certainty. It just makes too much sense (to me) in economic terms. The only wild card really is how the diplomatic community can paint this as something that is an exception to the rule of self-determination.

When I looked at the timeline, this did not strike me as much a surprise. I remember during the Clinton administration when Yugoslavia was falling apart and how Kosovo seemed at times to also be heading the way of the other break-away republics. This has been over 10-years in the making, and the UN had some sort of plan or guideline for Kosovo's independence about a year ago.

I'm just curious what the UN plan looked like ... and what sort of economic / geographic resources the small region has that the rest of Serbia wants.

Maybe Im just a paranoid American, but it worries me when Russia and China agree (China has also said that they will not recognize Kosovo).

At least Western Europe is on the same page as the US this time. It also worries me when the US does stupid shit on its own (recognizing Kosovo's Ind. is not stupid, but I suspect our motives are just to fuck with Putin, which is stupid).

You kinda confuse me here, first say Western Europe is on the same page and then the US doing "stupid shit on its own". Make sense man!

Either way, good show to all supporting Kosovo's independance. After what its people have been through they certain deserve to govern themselves.

That would be an interesting juxtaposition, given that Montenegro is one of the most economically free nations in Europe.

Sadly, that's not saying much. :(

Sadly, that's not saying much. :(

All Europeans are damn dirty socialists?

All Europeans are damn dirty socialists?

No, but they have even less economic freedom than the U.S. - and that's saying a lot.

Those countries, in fact, ARE near the Caspian Sea. Kosovo is as close to the Caspian Sea as Michigan is to the Caribbean.

Leaving aside the fact that you completely ignored the rest of my post that specifically demonstrated that the West has been engaged in attempting to transport Caspian oil through the Balkans through various private and public organs, it is obvious that they have to have some method of distribution to Western countries, which are nowhere near the Caspian themselves. (This already indicates their interest in Caspian oil.) One possibility is a pipeline that connects the Caspian Sea with the West, and as the Balkans is between both it is an obvious solution. (Remember, that area is politically unstable, and they will take as many options as possible to avoid supply interruptions.) Seeing as how they have actually been working on such a pipeline through the organizations I listed previously, any continued denial on your part of the feasability of such a project is lunacy.

Leaving aside the fact that you completely ignored the rest of my post that specifically demonstrated...
You "asserted". To "demonstrate" something, you would have to show some evidence. You did not even manage to make a coherent assertion, which would help.
One possibility is a pipeline that connects the Caspian Sea with the West, and as the Balkans is between both it is an obvious solution.
From the Caspian, you could send a pipeline overland around the north of the Black Sea, and then straight west into Europe: what would be the point of a southern detour down to Kosovo?
Or, what I think they are actually looking at, a pipeline across the Caucasus to Black Sea ports, but then, to avoid lots of large oil tankers through the Dardanelles, use ships to get it to Rumanian or Bulgarian ports. But from there, you want to go northwest: Kosovo just isn't on the way to anywhere. Or are you trying to assert that from Rumania they want to go west to the Adriatic? Still you would want to go through northern Greece, or Macedonia at the northernmost: what is the point of your Kosovo detour?

You "asserted". To "demonstrate" something, you would have to show some evidence. You did not even manage to make a coherent assertion, which would help.

While you may have willfully ignored the evidence, I still presented it through the necessity of distribution from the Caspian to the energy-hungry western states and through the existence of various organs based upon a market for Caspian Sea energy. Therefore, I demonstrated this. On the other hand, your claim that there is no feasability or desirability for a Balkan-Caspian pipeline is an assertion, and a wrong one as well.

From the Caspian, you could send a pipeline overland around the north of the Black Sea, and then straight west into Europe: what would be the point of a southern detour down to Kosovo?
Or, what I think they are actually looking at, a pipeline across the Caucasus to Black Sea ports, but then, to avoid lots of large oil tankers through the Dardanelles, use ships to get it to Rumanian or Bulgarian ports. But from there, you want to go northwest: Kosovo just isn't on the way to anywhere. Or are you trying to assert that from Rumania they want to go west to the Adriatic? Still you would want to go through northern Greece, or Macedonia at the northernmost: what is the point of your Kosovo detour?

For clarity's sake

The $1.3 billion trans-Balkan AMBO pipeline is one of the most important of these multiple pipelines. It will pump oil from the tankers that bring it across the Black Sea to the Bulgarian oil terminus at Burgas, through Macedonia to the Albanian Adriatic port of Vlore. From there it will be pumped on to huge 300,000 ton tankers and sent on to Europe and the US, bypassing the Bosphorus Straits—the congested and only route out of the Black Sea where tankers are restricted to 150,000 tons.

Camp Bondsteel and other bases exist in Kosovo so as to help defense contractors such as Halliburton service the Trans-Balkan pipeline, near the route through Presevo valley. (After all, Skopje, Macedonia's capital, is only 20 miles from Kosovo's border.) They also need airspace to protect their pipeline, as the Washington Post noted. Not to mention that if worst comes to worst, they could use a short pipeline to bypass part of Macedonia in case its internal stability problems worsen. Kosovo is ESSENTIAL to this pipeline, whether you want to admit it or not.

Edit: And let's not forget NATO's destruction of Serbia's infrastructure and oil industry, destroying the possibilities for Corridor Ten from Rumania through Serbia to Italy without any benefit for American companies. Caspian oil played an important part in this area, too, and these companies wanted no competition from their Russian counterparts.

Am I the only one that finds Turkey's hypocrisy interesting? They'll recognize Kosovo, but not the Kurds...

Am I the only one that finds Turkey's hypocrisy interesting? They'll recognize Kosovo, but not the Kurds...

Not only do they not recognize the Kurds, they've made a sport out of terrorizing them. What a bastion of human rights! (And the West couldn't be bothered about it.)

Not only do they not recognize the Kurds, they've made a sport out of terrorizing them. What a bastion of human rights! (And the West couldn't be bothered about it.)

As opposed to the Kurds using violence against the Turks.

As opposed to the Kurds using violence against the Turks.How exactly is this different from the Kosovo situation?

Unsurprising. If I was given a tenner now, my growth rates would look impressive when matched to a millionaire.
I think you misunderstand me. The economies of the Eastern European states are growing at a faster rate than those of Western Europe. It's growing from a smaller base, yes, but they are nonetheless performing better than our economies are in many respects. If Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia can do it, I see no reason why Kosovo cannot.

What's actually happened is that there's a complete brain-drain going on, as highly skilled workers from Eastern Europe bugger off to the West to earn more. Yeah, fine, this economic investment is spiffing in the short term, but they're quite fucked in the long run.
Most migration from Eastern Europe is short term rather than permanent, and providing Eastern European states with a source of foreign exchange. To provide an example, many Polish plumbers are now moving back to Poland now thay've done a stint in the UK. They're rally doing quite well out of it.

Not really, more an argument against arbritrary secession.
How?

Yes, we do. It was going fine, with none of this ethnic cleansing business, and then Tito died, causing a crash in the economy which was then blamed on whoever was nearby, leading to the deaths of thousands of people.

Which was kind of rubbish.
Exactly. A new Yugoslav dictatorship - even if it were possible to set one up - may well not work in the long term. The next time the economy goes haywire, New Yugoslavia may well not be able to deal with nationalism (which has now become far more of an issue thanks to The Slobberer) just like the old.

Aye, on the other hand he couldn't really fuck up Kosovo quite so much, seeing as it was a) being run mainly by the UN, and b) somewhat protected by Serbia.
Serbia hasn't had any real say in Kosovo since the UN took over. I doubt the UN would want to get in the way of any elected leadership in Kosovo - whover he or she be - inorder to keep the Kosovars on side. If Kosovo were returned to Serbia, and they tried to have too much influence on Kosovo over and above the elected Kosovar government, everythign goes tits up.

That, also magic.
Magic?

How exactly is this different from the Kosovo situation?

Well for starters...I have read the Kosovar Declaration of Independence. Even they state that their declaration is not to be used precedent.

After that, I'll get back to ya.

Am I the only one that finds Turkey's hypocrisy interesting? They'll recognize Kosovo, but not the Kurds...

Interesting, but no news.

1.Kosovo = Albania = allies of Turkey.
2.Kosovo = Albania = allies of USA just like Turkey.
3.Recognition of Kosovo = precedent for recognition of T.R.Cyprus (North Cyprus).

No wonder Spain (the less pro-USA government in EU) isn't recognising Kosovo (at least this morning it was so).

Well for starters...I have read the Kosovar Declaration of Independence. Even they state that their declaration is not to be used precedent.

After that, I'll get back to ya.Well, not that. The Kurds using terror is hardly different from the UCK.

Notice Hawaii is on that list too? Hawaii is a state in the Union with representation in Congress. :D

Puerto Rico though has had votes on statehood but have rejected it time and again but they have also voted to stay as a territory of the United States too.

Cyprus being on that list though made me laugh.

I believe they meant Turkish Cyprus, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cyprus. Scotland was also on the list, which similarly has a devolved parliament and representatives in the House of Commons (but really, let's not get into that discussion, the constituent countries of the UK is a very different kettle of fish).

Interesting, but no news.

1.Kosovo = Albania = allies of Turkey.
2.Kosovo = Albania = allies of USA just like Turkey.
3.Recognition of Kosovo = precedent for recognition of T.R.Cyprus (North Cyprus).

No wonder Spain (the less pro-USA government in EU) isn't recognising Kosovo (at least this morning it was so).Well, Spain might be more worried about the Basques and Catalan than about Northern Cyprus. Greece may be worried about Albanians in Greece in addition to Northern Cyprus. Slovakia... no idea there, but Cyprus is obvious. Romania may be having issues with Transnistria in Moldova.

I believe they meant Turkish Cyprus, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cyprus.

Could be but he stated CYPRUS meaning, all of it. If he was talking about a certain part of it then he should have said so. Let us not forget that the Turkish part of Cyprus is only recognized by Ankara, Turkey while the other part is the recognized portion of Cyprus. Now there is a great possibility that all of Cyprus could very well be reunited in the coming years now that their President was ousted in the first round.

Scotland was also on the list, which similarly has a devolved parliament and representatives in the House of Commons (but really, let's not get into that discussion, the constituent countries of the UK is a very different kettle of fish).

In that regard, all of the 50 states have legislatures and a governor with representation in the House and Senate. :D

Well, Spain might be more worried about the Basques and Catalan than about Northern Cyprus. Greece may be worried about Albanians in Greece in addition to Northern Cyprus. Slovakia... no idea there, but Cyprus is obvious. Romania may be having issues with Transnistria in Moldova.
They've got the right idea, they see the potential for instability that this may cause. The British government is very forgetful, it was until only recently that we had huge terrroist problems of our own in Northern Ireland. Let's say the troubles blow up again, or if no peace agreement had been made in the first place - how would we feel if, against the international consensus, other countries decided to go ahead and recognise Northern Ireland as part of the Republic of Ireland?

i wonder if the US would benefit from becoming a split country of north and south, with different governments to rule both, insane yes? no?

Insane, yes.

While you may have willfully ignored the evidence, I still presented it
No, you didn't "present" any "evidence": that would mean giving some links, where information could be found. You gave a garbled presentation, making it sound as if you thought Kosovo was in Kazakhstan. I didn't "ignore" it (willfully, or otherwise) but rather went to the trouble of trying to decipher what the hell you could be talking about.
your claim that there is no feasability or desirability for a Balkan-Caspian pipeline is an assertion
I made no such claim, on the contrary, I deciphered that presumably what you actually meant, although you did not say so, was a pipeline from Caspian to Black, a ship route across to Rumania or Bulgaria, and then another pipeline west across the Balkans-- rather than a pipeline from the Caspian to Europe (which would go across Ukraine and Poland), as your garbled presentation implied.
...as the Washington Post noted.
WHEN did the Washington Post note this? See, if you were going to "present evidence", this is the place where you link to a Washington Post article so anybody could see what the hell you are talking about.
Not to mention that if worst comes to worst, they could use a short pipeline to bypass part of Macedonia in case its internal stability problems worsen. Kosovo is ESSENTIAL to this pipeline, whether you want to admit it or not.
I don't see any point in bypassing "part" of Macedonia if that whole country goes to shit, nor do I see where Kosovo's stability is likely to be any better than Macedonia's.

That would be an interesting juxtaposition, given that Montenegro is one of the most economically free nations in Europe.
Okay
Insane, yes.

Why?

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13464931']They've got the right idea, they see the potential for instability that this may cause. The British government is very forgetful, it was until only recently that we had huge terrroist problems of our own in Northern Ireland. Let's say the troubles blow up again, or if no peace agreement had been made in the first place - how would we feel if, against the international consensus, other countries decided to go ahead and recognise Northern Ireland as part of the Republic of Ireland?

It's not really comparable. For a start, under current aggreements (the Anglo-Irish treaty, the Ireland Act 1949, the Northern Ireland Act 1988) if Northern Ireland held a referendum whereby the majority voted to join with the Republic of Ireland, then they would. The Uk government has already promised that. Part of the issues with the troubles is that, roughly, 60% of the population of N Ireland are protestant and want to stay with the UK (not certain on the exact statistics). If it ever got to the point that 90% were catholic and voted by vaste majority to join Ireland... or have independence, then the British government has already promised to honour that.

I love your double-standards. Apparently, only those who refuse to cooperate with the United States commit human rights abuses; the rest are merely protecting their internal stability.

I would love for you to actually prove that assertion.

As opposed to the Kurds using violence against the Turks.

I love your double-standards. Apparently, only those who refuse to cooperate with the United States commit human rights abuses; the rest are merely protecting their internal stability.

No, you didn't "present" any "evidence": that would mean giving some links, where information could be found. You gave a garbled presentation, making it sound as if you thought Kosovo was in Kazakhstan. I didn't "ignore" it (willfully, or otherwise) but rather went to the trouble of trying to decipher what the hell you could be talking about.

First of all, if you misinterpreted it as me saying that Kosovo was in Kazakhstan, that's your problem. Investment in the Caspian Sea would necessitate some method of distribution, which I then showed through AMBO and the various government organizations for transporting oil from the Caspian Sea to Europe. There is no garbled presentation; there is only your garbled interpretation because you made a one-line comment after reading the first two lines of my response. Also, your problem is not with me not presenting evidence (which I did), but by not citing sources (which is rarely demanded on this forum, and which I assumed you would not either.) If you actually want citations, they are at the bottom of this post.

I made no such claim, on the contrary,

Yes you did. Your first post was "Have you looked at a map? That's one crazy pipeline!"

I deciphered that presumably what you actually meant, although you did not say so, was a pipeline from Caspian to Black, a ship route across to Rumania or Bulgaria, and then another pipeline west across the Balkans-- rather than a pipeline from the Caspian to Europe (which would go across Ukraine and Poland), as your garbled presentation implied.

Again, it is your fault alone that you had a garbled interpretation. I specifically mentioned the AMBO pipeline and the various organizations set up to facilitate this transportation, thus establishing the strategic importance of dominating Kosovo for a Balkan pipeline.

WHEN did the Washington Post note this? See, if you were going to "present evidence", this is the place where you link to a Washington Post article so anybody could see what the hell you are talking about.

The Washington Post said this on the 28th of February, 1999, in the article "Why the Balkans Demand Amorality," by Robert Kaplan. (He also has this in his book Balkan Ghosts.) You have to pay to see the entire article, however, but it is here. (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/39327017.html?dids=39327017:39327017&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Feb+28%2C+1999&author=Robert+D.+Kaplan&pub=The+Washington+Post&edition=&startpage=B.01&desc=Why+the+Balkans+Demand+Amorality)

I don't see any point in bypassing "part" of Macedonia if that whole country goes to shit, nor do I see where Kosovo's stability is likely to be any better than Macedonia's.

Actually, it could have a very different stability. For instance, the Albanians would be friendly to any development in Kosovo, since they are in power there, but they could be hostile in Macedonia where they previously carried out an insurgency. So while they could be raising hell in Macedonia, they would be at relative peace in Kosovo. And even if they do not use this option, Brown and Root still supports the pipeline through Camp Bondsteel; Kosovo is very close to the AMBO pipeline, and controlling this location is essential to the livelihood of the interested parties.


David Buchan and David Stern, 'Thirsty world waiting for more 'new' oil to flow', Financial Times , 8 August 2001.
Vladimir Babak, 'Kazakhstan: Big Politics Around Big Oil', in Michael P. Croissant and Bülent Aras (eds), Oil and Geopolitics in the Caspian Sea Region , Westport, CT, Praeger, 1999, p.194.
Nasib Nassibli, 'Azerbaijan: Oil and Politics in the Country's Future', in Croissant and Aras (eds), Oil and Geopolitics in the Caspian Sea Region , Westport, CT, Praeger, 1999, p.107.
IEA, 2000, OECD/IEA, 2000[
Robert Smith, 'Politics, production levels to determine Caspian area energy export options', Oil & Gas Journal, 28 May 2001.
Bruce Stanley, 'Kazakstan's star rises as oil power', Associated Press , 10 August 2001.
Michael P. Croissant, 'Georgia: Bridge or Barrier for Caspian Oil?', in Croissant and Aras (eds), op.cit., pp.281-282; Giles Whittell, 'Old Soviet states defy Russia with plan to rebuild Silk Road', The Times, 8 June 2001.
David Stern, 'Silk Road delegates sign foundation treaty, discuss oil pipelines', Agence France Presse, 8 September 1998.
'Azerbaijan', US Energy Information Administration, May 2000.
Press Release; IP:97/404, 'European Commission helps New Independent States (NIS) get oil and gas flowing: ECU 12 million committed this year', RAPID , 14 May 1997; 'US-EU Statement on Caspian Energy', US-EU Summit, London, 18 May 1998.
Hans van den Broek, Member of the European Commission, 'Concluding remarks at the INOGATE Conference', RAPID, 17 February 1999.
'EU/NIS: Another Milestone for Inogate Energy Programme', European Report , op.cit.
United States Energy Information Administration, 'Caspian Sea Oil and Natural Gas Export Routes', June 2000; 'Ukraine - Energy: Technical audit of the Ukrainian Oil Pipeline Export System', EuropeAid, Ref: TACIS/UA/SCRE1/No.50; 'INOGATE as a Route to Recovery for NIS', European Report , 20 February 1999.
'INOGATE as a Route to Recovery for NIS', European Report, 20 February 1999.
'Inogate Agreement Signed In Ukraine', FT Energy Newsletters - East European Energy Report , 30 July 1999.
'Extension of Inogate to Balkan countries', Inogate Newsletter, No.7, September 1999; 'Macedonia - European Union signed the agreement Inogate', Macedonian Agency of Information, 12 October 1999.
'Conclusions of the Synergy Conference on Gas, Oil and Electricity in the Balkans', Energy in Europe, 26, December 1995, pp.65-66.
Memorandum of the Balkans Energy Interconnections Task Force, 28 November 1997, p.1.
Kerin Hope, 'Russia to reap benefits of Balkan oil pipeline', Financial Times , 30 September 1994.
'Bosporus bypass planned', Platt's Oilgram News, 1 November 1994.
'Second Black Sea oil pipeline considered by Balkan states', East European Energy Report , 20 June 1995.
Svante E. Cornell, Small Nations and Great Powers: a study of ethnopolitical conflict in the Caucasus, Richmond, Curzon Press, 2001, p.372.
Mehmet Öğütçü, 'Eurasian Energy Prospects and Politics: Need to a Longer-Term Western Strategy', in Wälde (ed.), p.100.
'TDA Supports U.S. Transportation Exports. Europe: Regional: Southern Balkan Development Initiative', US Trade and Development Agency, May 1998.
M. Pupa, 'Road 8 to be realised in three stages', Albanian Telegraphic Agency , 6 November 1998.
'Feasibility Study', AMBO Pipeline Consortium, May 2000, US Department of Commerce National Technical Information Service document no. PB2000106974, pp.I-70,I-72,I-79,I-84. White & Case, Halliburton/Brown & Root, CS First Boston, and PVM contributed to the study.
'Joint statement - U.S.-Bulgarian partnership for a new era', M2 Presswire, 12 February 1998.
'The Phare Multi-Country Transport Programme - Inventory and Achievements', European Commission, August 2000, p.7.

First of all, if you misinterpreted it as me saying that Kosovo was in Kazakhstan, that's your problem.
No, it's entirely yours, if you wanted to convey some point, and failed to do so. It is no skin off my nose.
Also, your problem is not with me not presenting evidence (which I did), but by not citing sources (which is rarely demanded on this forum, and which I assumed you would not either.)
Except when you cite sources, you are not "presenting evidence". Indeed, usually it is not demanded that someone present evidence, but for you to pretend that you presented evidence when you did not is just very strange.
If you actually want citations, they are at the bottom of this post.
Could you delete the ones which do not mention Kosovo? I would expect that most discussions of Caspian Sea oil never talk about Kosovo at all.
Your first post was "Have you looked at a map? That's one crazy pipeline!"
Yep. You were describing a pipeline from the Caspian Sea to Europe, going through Kosovo. That would be insane, somewhat like a pipeline from the Gulf of Mexico to Michigan, that goes by way of Idaho.
I specifically mentioned the AMBO pipeline and the various organizations set up to facilitate this transportation, thus establishing the strategic importance of dominating Kosovo for a Balkan pipeline.
You did not indicate what the "AMBO pipeline" meant, nor have you yet made a case why Kosovo is important.
For instance, the Albanians would be friendly to any development in Kosovo, since they are in power there, but they could be hostile in Macedonia where they previously carried out an insurgency.
So what's the point then? If the pipeline is going to be cut in Macedonia, it will not matter if it is not cut in Kosovo. You are still not making any sense.

-snip-

It is obvious that you are being intentionally difficult and snide, so I will make one final post in response and then cease to waste my time arguing this with you. The reason why Camp Bondsteel, which was contracted out to Brown and Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton and the same people who did the feasability project for the AMBO pipeline that runs through the US-friendly states of Bulgaria, Macedonia, and Albania, is so that Brown and Root can provide support to the pipeline which, while in Macedonia, runs right next to the Kosovo border (and at the Kosovo-Macedonia border is Camp Bondsteel), as well as have airspace and military support to control the region. They could also build a pipeline that would be a deviation of only a few miles from Macedonia over the Kosovo border and then on to Albania, in case of security problems. That is why Kosovo's location is important for oil.

It is obvious that you are being intentionally difficult and snide
No, you are just not being at all clear. If you cannot convey what you mean to say, you ought to consider that the difficulty could be at the transmitter end rather than at the receiver end.

I fully support the idea of an independent Kosova but with reservations. I have to note two things. First of all Kosova is undoubtedly historically a region of Serbia. This is proven by the amount of Serbian monasteries in the region and also by the fact that the Serbian Prince Lazar fought the Ottoman Turks in Kosova at the Battle of Kosova and he was considered to have been fighting on home ground for the defense of his nation. Also though, being a Muslim Bosnian, I am very concerned as to what implications the secession of Kosova could have on Bosna i Hercegovina. This has been pointed out but it is a serious threat, if it is logical for Kosova to secede from Serbia then why is it not logical for the Republika Srpska (Republic of Serbia) to secede from Bosna i Hercegovina. It is a very scary thought for me. Many organizations including the European Union and individual countries have tried to make the argument that this does not set a precedent for separatists elsewhere but this is ridiculous as the precedent screams out on its own without anybody saying anything and because separatists do not necessarily think in the same manner as diplomats which means that they see the precedent there more strongly than most people regardless of whether the rest of the world recognizes it as being there or not.

I found some more info on the UK's forces in Kosovo.BBC news
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7252913.stm
Just thought i'd add that in. Go Kosovo

КОСОВО И МЕТОХИЈА СУ СРБИЈА!
ТУЂЕ НЕЋЕМО СВОЈЕ НЕДАМО!

Good luck to them.

After all, that's what the world needs, more countries.

That'll solve everything.

Just ask the people of Rhodesia.

. Slovakia... no idea there.

We have, had and will have some issues with Hungarians demanding return of "Felvidék", abolishment of Treaty of Trianon or at least autonomy for southern Slovakia where about 80 % of citizens say that they are of Hungarian nationality (region Dunajská Streda).

We have, had and will have some issues with Hungarians demanding return of "Felvidék", abolishment of Treaty of Trianon or at least autonomy for southern Slovakia where about 80 % of citizens say that they are of Hungarian nationality (region Dunajská Streda).Figured it might be something like that. Might also be motivation for Romania then...

Trouble on the horizon for Kosovo i think.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7256158.stm
Serbians set fire to US embassy.

КОСОВО И МЕТОХИЈА СУ СРБИЈА!
ТУЂЕ НЕЋЕМО СВОЈЕ НЕДАМО!


I have no idea what this means, but as the writing is Cryllic and the subject is independence for Kosovo, it is 70% likely that I agree.

So, let me say, emphatically, Right 70% on, man! I support you 70% heartedly!

Unless its something like "kill all those damn Albanians." then I withdraw my support.

I have no idea what this means, but as the writing is Cryllic and the subject is independence for Kosovo, it is 70% likely that I agree.

So, let me say, emphatically, Right 70% on, man! I support you 70% heartedly!

Unless its something like "kill all those damn Albanians." then I withdraw my support.

This is proof that you don't need to read another person's post to interpret what they mean, even if it's a foreign language.
You are living History.:)

Trouble on the horizon for Kosovo i think.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7256158.stm
Serbians set fire to US embassy.

interestingly, they preemptively set fire to the croatian embassy, which hasn't actually recognized kosovo yet.

I'd say the only people who really have problems with Kosova independence are Serb nationalists who like genocide.

Trouble on the horizon for Kosovo i think.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7256158.stm
Serbians set fire to US embassy.

With Uncle Vlad's quiet backing, anyone have a guess at how long before Serbia gets ballsy and declares Kosovo "A Renegade Province"?

I don't understand it either, but I guess it's something in the line of "Kosovo is part of Serbia". I'm unsure whether this falls into category of 70%, or 30%.
That first word is definitely Kosovo, and the last word on the first line is definitely Serbia.

Otherwise I have no idea.

I have no idea what this means, but as the writing is Cryllic and the subject is independence for Kosovo, it is 70% likely that I agree.

So, let me say, emphatically, Right 70% on, man! I support you 70% heartedly!

Unless its something like "kill all those damn Albanians." then I withdraw my support.

I don't understand it either, but I guess it's something in the line of "Kosovo is part of Serbia". I'm unsure whether this falls into category of 70%, or 30%.

interestingly, they preemptively set fire to the croatian embassy, which hasn't actually recognized kosovo yet.
Serbs don't need much encouragement to attack Croats.

The same is true in reverse. The Battle of Medak Pocket is excellent evidence of this.

Serb's believe that Kosova is the cradle of their nation but they are so wrong. If you look through facts of history you will see that Kosova never was part of Serbia because it was always inhabited from Albanians long before Serb's came into Balkan's.

Serb's came here 1500 years ago from the Carpathian mountains. There were always the same as today. They did lot's of killings and deportations, right until the NATO came and saved us from them (Look what they did to the embassies of the foreign countries tonight, they are practically insane).

And finally you cannot compare the basks in Spain with us, because we are completely a different story. They didn't have these kind of oppressions as we had. The Serb regime did much more harm and damage to us than you can ever imagine it.

We have long fought for this day and we deserve it completely. Now finally the justice has been done.

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7248446.stm)

About time I say. The Kosovan people have been through enough of a struggle.

If that's what they really want, I can't really see why Kosovo shouldn't be independent.
I hereby declare independence for me and my cat! :cool:

I have no idea what this means, but as the writing is Cryllic and the subject is independence for Kosovo, it is 70% likely that I agree.

So, let me say, emphatically, Right 70% on, man! I support you 70% heartedly!

Unless its something like "kill all those damn Albanians." then I withdraw my support.

"КОСОВО И МЕТОХИЈА СУ СРБИЈА!
ТУЂЕ НЕЋЕМО СВОЈЕ НЕДАМО!" transcribes as
Kosovo i Metochiya su Srbiya! (Kosovo and Metohiya are Serbia!)
Tutje netjemo svoye nedamo! (something like, we will never give them up!)

Serb's believe that Kosova is the cradle of their nation but they are so wrong. If you look through facts of history you will see that Kosova never was part of Serbia because it was always inhabited from Albanians long before Serb's came into Balkan's.

Serb's came here 1500 years ago from the Carpathian mountains. There were always the same as today. They did lot's of killings and deportations, right until the NATO came and saved us from them (Look what they did to the embassies of the foreign countries tonight, they are practically insane).

And finally you cannot compare the basks in Spain with us, because we are completely a different story. They didn't have these kind of oppressions as we had. The Serb regime did much more harm and damage to us than you can ever imagine it.

We have long fought for this day and we deserve it completely. Now finally the justice has been done.

A small suggestion if your people would like to avoid the inflammation of the situtation into full scale war and if you really believe people have the right to determine their own destinies on the basis of ethnicity: allow the Serbs in the north of Kosovo to seperate from Kosovo prime. Albanians don't want to live with Serbs and the Serbs don't want to live in Albanians so I think they should both be allowed to go their own way. If the Albanians get a new country then so should the Serbs. In other words, majority of kosovo is new country but does not include Serbian north part. It would be a good peaceful solution and hopefully satisfy both Serbs and Albanians.
I think this is only way to avoid a major regional war from starting over the independence declaration.

My concern about the precedent thing is that the way Bush is doing it, he's making it look like only Albanians have the right to create a new nation from a existing nation. Basques, Hungarians, Turks, and Serbs don't have the right to self determination. At least according to Bush doctrine.
It's Bush's fault the US embassy was attacked and it is Bush's fault the Serbs are reacting the way they are. He told the President of Kosovo to declare independence and claim not only Albanian areas, but also Serb areas. That was a recipe for disaster from the start.

I don't think any promises of equitable treatment are going to calm the Serbs. Only letting them go off on their own, with their territory of northern Kosovo will reassure them that the Albanians don't harbor evil intentions toward them.

What is the view of Russia's decision to reliate by recognizing Abkahzia and Ossetia?

Tutje netjemo svoye nedamo! (something like, we will never give them up!)

I would say more like : We do not want yours and we will not give up ours !

All Slavs have similar proverb.

What is the view of Russia's decision to reliate by recognizing Abkahzia and Ossetia?

I suppose that's a good thing?
Er anyone know any sources for this news?

I suppose that's a good thing?
Er anyone know any sources for this news?

Russia balancing Kosovo stance with own separatist issues



Russian newspapers on Monday said Russia was also likely to use Kosovo's declaration to put more pressure on neighboring Georgia, which has two separatist provinces -- Abkhazia and South Ossetia -- that adjoin Russia and have Moscow's de facto backing.



Despite opposing Kosovo's independence, Russia has said that it could serve as a precedent for the separatist provinces. At the same time Moscow has said it does not plan to recognize independence for the two provinces, reflecting worries about separatism within Russia's own borders.



South Ossetia and Abkhazia plan to ask Russia and the UN to recognize their independence following Kosovo’s declaration of independence.



"In the near future Abkhazia will appeal to the Russian parliament and the UN Security Council with a request to recognize its independence," self-declared Abkhaz President Sergei Bagapsh was quoted as saying by the Interfax news agency.



"South Ossetia will in the near future appeal to the Commonwealth of Independent States and the UN with a request to recognize our independence," South Ossetian President Eduard Kokoity was also quoted as saying by the news agency, referring to a grouping of ex-Soviet states that includes Russia.



Moscow could open representative offices in the capitals of the two Georgian provinces, a step just short of formal recognition of independence, Kommersant newspaper said, quoting unnamed government sources.



Analysts say Russia is balancing its position as it seeks to use its separatist allies in Georgia to gain diplomatic advantage over the Georgian leadership, which is seeking to join Western institutions such as NATO.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3133242,00.html

I don't think this would be good news for everyone. I'm sure the caucasus is a mess (border wise), but it seemed to be calm in the last years. I blame the Soviet arrangement of SSR's, thus blaming Russia's meddling since the beggining. But I don't think those lands should be Georgian just for the sake of nationalism. They better solve this peacefully if they really want to be into NATO.

This all seems more like a cold fight between Russia and the West, and for them it's probably not much about Kosovo anymore.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23289757/page/2/

Bush is demanding a special apology from Serbia or Serbia will face 'consequence'. He is now also threatening military action against Russia.
American's elect wackos to their nation's presidency. Isn't two wars enough? Bush wants to start a third and a fourth one already.

I bet he's going to start a war over this before he leaves office in 10 months.
McCain has said he supports going to war with Russia over Kosovo.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23289757/page/2/

Bush is demanding a special apology from Serbia or Serbia will face 'consequence'. He is now also threatening military action against Russia.
American's elect wackos to their nation's presidency. Isn't two wars enough? Bush wants to start a third and a fourth one already.

I bet he's going to start a war over this before he leaves office in 10 months.
McCain has said he supports going to war with Russia over Kosovo.

Okay. WHAT?
Bush is threatening military action against Russia?
Is this true?

I would say more like : We do not want yours and we will not give up ours !

All Slavs have similar proverb.
Thank you.

Romania is supporting Serbia on the Kosovo issue.

http://www.sofiaecho.com/article/romania-backs-serbia-on-kosovo-urges-dialogue-with-eu/id_27694/catid_66

MHIJ- I think it was mentioned on the first page of the link I provided in that post. I erred by just linking to page 2.

Okay. WHAT?
Bush is threatening military action against Russia?
Is this true?

No, no it's not.

Bush expressed a desire for Russia to fall in line with the majority international and regional opinion on the matter, and considered the Russian actions on this matter to be dangerous and unproductive.

http://thepost.com.pk/ShortNews.aspx?shortid=5460&catid=1

"Russia’s Nato envoy lashes out at West over Kosovo

MOSCOW: Moscow's envoy to Nato warned Friday that Russia may turn to "brute military force" to earn respect on the world scene if all EU nations recognize Kosovo's independence and Nato oversteps its authority in Kosovo. However, Dmitry Rogozin said Russia was not going to get involved in any armed confrontation over Kosovo. He said some Western countries were ruining the entire system of international law by recognising Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence from Serbia. "If the European Union works out a single position and Nato goes beyond its current mandate in Kosovo, these organisations will conflict with the United Nations," Rogozin said in a televised hookup from Brussels. "And we, I think, will proceed from an assumption that to be respected, we have to use brute military force," he said. The Russian Foreign Ministry's envoy to the Balkans, Alexander Botsan-Kharchenko.– AP"

Don't you just love how world war III smells? Just take a good whiff.

http://thepost.com.pk/ShortNews.aspx?shortid=5460&catid=1

"Russia’s Nato envoy lashes out at West over Kosovo

MOSCOW: Moscow's envoy to Nato warned Friday that Russia may turn to "brute military force" to earn respect on the world scene if all EU nations recognize Kosovo's independence and Nato oversteps its authority in Kosovo.

In that case, we have nothing to worry about Spain is not going to recognize Kosovo Independence.

No, no it's not.

Bush expressed a desire for Russia to fall in line with the majority international and regional opinion on the matter, and considered the Russian actions on this matter to be dangerous and unproductive.

Nay. It is Bush's actions that dangerous, unproductive and illegal. Not to mention his warmongering ways have already killed over a million innocent civilians since he first became Pres of the US.

I do believe it is the Americans, not the Russians or the Serbs who have been going around kidnapping and torturing people.

I was some law they passed, called Patriot Act, that they claim give them authority to do it.

Nay. It is Bush's actions that dangerous, unproductive and illegal. Not to mention his warmongering ways have already killed over a million innocent civilians since he first became Pres of the US.

First off, the Lancet study is severely flawed, and it is not likely that anywhere near a million people have died as the result of Bush's military adventurism.

Furthermore, on the matter of Kosovo, the United States is in the right, and Russia is in the wrong. Their opposition to Kosovar independence is borne out of a common sense of Slavic nationalism and Slavic brotherhood with the Serbian people. The events of the past two decades have shown that the people of Kosovo are, and ought to be free and independent.

Further, Russia has resumed Strategic bomber patrols, and has been consistently pushing the boundaries of the US and US allies, including Japan, Canada and Great Britain.

I do believe it is the Americans, not the Russians or the Serbs who have been going around kidnapping and torturing people.

As for the Serbian government, that's likely true. Serbian nationalists and paramilitaries, though, likely not.

And, as far as the Russian government, that's patently false. Putin's intelligence services have been undergoing an aggressive campaign to eliminate dissidents at home and abroad through a campaign of assassination and intimidation, the most public case being that of Alexander Litvenenko, but he is not alone on that.

I was some law they passed, called Patriot Act, that they claim give them authority to do it.

First off, the Patriot Act gives the government no such authority. It grants various other bits of questionable authority, but nowhere is it codified into US law that the government can abduct and torture people.

More than that, what do Bush's misdeeds have to do with Kosovar independence? I mean, besides the obvious ad hominem fallacy, I guess.

I think Ad hominem is the definition of Bush. Along with every other fallacy.

More than that, what do Bush's misdeeds have to do with Kosovar independence? I mean, besides the obvious ad hominem fallacy, I guess.

Bush is only supporting Kosovo because he seeks to start another war. Two wars and hundreds of dead civilians is not enough for him or his supporters.

Now I know I cannot take you seriously.

Russia and CIS should troops to middle east to support Palestine independnce and protect palestine nation from evil US ally called Israel.

The STATE of Palestine has never existed. Actually..never has a nation of Palestine either.

More than that, what do Bush's misdeeds have to do with Kosovar independence? I mean, besides the obvious ad hominem fallacy, I guess.

Bush is only supporting Kosovo because he seeks to start another war. Two wars and hundreds of dead civilians is not enough for him or his supporters.

You have not linked to where Russians or Serbs torture people. I could give you dozens of links about Americans torturing people though.

Americans are fond of torture technique called waterboarding. Where they drown you unless you tell them what they want you to say even if it not true.

Bush is only supporting Kosovo because he seeks to start another war. Two wars and hundreds of dead civilians is not enough for him or his supporters.

You have not linked to where Russians or Serbs torture people. I could give you dozens of links about Americans torturing people though.

Americans are fond of torture technique called waterboarding. Where they drown you unless you tell them what they want you to say even if it not true.

Russia and CIS should troops to middle east to support Palestine independnce and protect palestine nation from evil US ally called Israel.

Let us not forget that Americans have practice called extroadinary rendition which they claim gives them right to kidnap people from other countries even though it violate national soverignty and international law.

Russia and Serbia have no such practice.
What do these have to do with Kosovo?

Russia and Serbia have no such practice.
*steps from the shadows*
None that we know of.
*steps back into the shadows*

Russia and CIS should troops to middle east to support Palestine independnce and protect palestine nation from evil US ally called Israel.

Let us not forget that Americans have practice called extroadinary rendition which they claim gives them right to kidnap people from other countries even though it violate national soverignty and international law.

Russia and Serbia have no such practice.

Thank you Mr. President for once again proudly wasting my tax dollars and brining misery and hatred of American to the Balkans. Then again you seem to excel at that. What will be Russia's response? Quite simple - tell the World of US double-standards, i.e. trying to pretend that Kosovo's an exception, when it is actually not, thus disgracing US in the eyes of the World once again! What a suprise. Russia could simply and legally stop selling energy to Kosovo. It's cold in Pristina and Russia had a contract to sell energy to Serbia, not Kosovo and since Kosovo's independent, and unrecognized by Russia, not only can the Russian Federation stop all trading with Kosovo, but it is not obliged to sign a new trade treaty with a country it doesn't recognize. And don't count on EU countries sell their energy, because then demand goes up and Russia raises the price of oil. Now as a French or German citizen you have to pay for your government's mistakes, well then again that's nothing new.

What else can Russia do? Will they can ally with China, and claim that Kosovo is Taiwan. In other words after Taiwan recognized Kosovo, Russia stated that they will not intervene if the Chinese attack Taiwan, and that they won't care much for Iranian sanctions. In addition they will recognize Ossetia and Abkhazia should the Kosovar stunt go through. Keep in mind that Kosovars will be living without any energy during this time. What the declaration of Independence of Kosovo did is a geo-political disaster for the US, becuase it stablished the triambrid of Russia, China and Iran, now having clear proof of US double standards. I mean if Kosovars, why not Basques? Heck, why not Native Americans? They were clearly genocided using biological warfare (smallpox blankets). And this happened just when you thought, how much damage could the current administration do in a year? Turns out, they're still quite capable in that category.

That's quite a negative take on things.
I detect a slippery slope argument.
How do you know what Russia's intention will be?
geo-political disaster?

Thank you Mr. President for once again proudly wasting my tax dollars and bringing misery and hatred of American to the Balkans. Then again you seem to excel at that. What will be Russia's response? Quite simple - tell the World of US double-standards, i.e. trying to pretend that Kosovo's an exception, when it is actually not, thus disgracing US in the eyes of the World once again! What a suprise. Russia could simply and legally stop selling energy to Kosovo. It's cold in Pristina and Russia had a contract to sell energy to Serbia, not Kosovo and since Kosovo's independent, and unrecognized by Russia, not only can the Russian Federation stop all trading with Kosovo, but it is not obliged to sign a new trade treaty with a country it doesn't recognize. And don't count on EU countries sell their energy, because then demand goes up and Russia raises the price of oil. Now as a French or German citizen you have to pay for your government's mistakes, well then again that's nothing new.

What else can Russia do? Will they can ally with China, and claim that Kosovo is Taiwan. In other words after Taiwan recognized Kosovo, Russia stated that they will not intervene if the Chinese attack Taiwan, and that they won't care much for Iranian sanctions. In addition they will recognize Ossetia and Abkhazia should the Kosovar stunt go through. Keep in mind that Kosovars will be living without any energy during this time. What the declaration of Independence of Kosovo did is a geo-political disaster for the US, becuase it stablished the triambrid of Russia, China and Iran, now having clear proof of US double standards. I mean if Kosovars, why not Basques? Heck, why not Native Americans? They were clearly genocided using biological warfare (smallpox blankets). And this happened just when you thought, how much damage could the current administration do in a year? Turns out, they're still quite capable in that category.

So let me get this straight:

Americans bomb Belgrade (capital of Serbia) partion Serbia and then wonder why their restaurants and embassy are set on fire? Geez, I wonder, must be some covert op peformed by state-sponsored terrorism. Wake the fuck up America. Shish.

If a country treats a group of its citizens like shit they have absolutely no reason to remain a part of it. And they absolutely have the right to take their land with them.

Damned right! It's time for Mississippi to gain their independence from their cruel oppressors! Oh Kosovo, right. Didn't all those Albanians just migrate there at the end of the 1800's? Does this mean that the ex-Cubans in Miami can legally declare Miami an independent state? How about the Arab population in France taking the places they live in? The Mexicans in the US?

Bush is only supporting Kosovo because he seeks to start another war. Two wars and hundreds of dead civilians is not enough for him or his supporters.

You have not linked to where Russians or Serbs torture people. I could give you dozens of links about Americans torturing people though.

Americans are fond of torture technique called waterboarding. Where they drown you unless you tell them what they want you to say even if it not true.

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=europe&c=russia

Here's the 2006 Report

http://hrw.org/englishwr2k7/docs/2007/01/11/russia14838.htm

Here's the Amnesty International Report on Russia

http://www.amnestyusa.org/By_Country/Russian_Federation/page.do?id=1011228&n1=3&n2=30&n3=978

Perhaps this one, where the Russians are openly using evidence gained in torture in a trial.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/02/01/russia17968.htm

And what sort of war do you think Bush wants to start here? He's not the one who made the Kosovars vote for independence, they did that all on their own. I mean, what does he gain by starting a war in this region?

Damned right! It's time for Mississippi to gain their independence from their cruel oppressors! Oh Kosovo, right. Didn't all those Albanians just migrate there at the end of the 1800's? Does this mean that the ex-Cubans in Miami can legally declare Miami an independent state? How about the Arab population in France taking the places they live in? The Mexicans in the US?
Yes, and people don't really know how lazy and difficult the Albanians in Kosovo were. They refused to learn the Serbian language and had numerous children which the tax payer money took care of; in old Yugoslavia you would get a certain amount of money for every child you had. Also other republics would give Kosovo money for projects and various other things, and every time it would be wasted or misused. So they are actually much worst then the Mexicans and Hispanics in the states, who at least speak English.

Yes, and people don't really know how lazy and difficult the Albanians in Kosovo were. They refused to learn the Serbian language and had numerous children which the tax payer money took care of
Exactly. Assimilate now!

Damned right! It's time for Mississippi to gain their independence from their cruel oppressors! Oh Kosovo, right. Didn't all those Albanians just migrate there at the end of the 1800's? Does this mean that the ex-Cubans in Miami can legally declare Miami an independent state? How about the Arab population in France taking the places they live in? The Mexicans in the US?


I wonder, if the Yugoslavs would know that the Kosovars would be so troublesome in the 90's, would they still have protected them from the Nazis? Yugoslavia and the USSR were the only two countries to liberate themselves, unlike England which ran far far away at Dunkirk, you call it a miracle, I'll state that it was a panicky and pathetic retreat. Too bad Wellington and Blutcher weren't around just when you needed them.

Yes, and people don't really know how lazy and difficult the Albanians in Kosovo were. They refused to learn the Serbian language and had numerous children which the tax payer money took care of; in old Yugoslavia you would get a certain amount of money for every child you had. Also other republics would give Kosovo money for projects and various other things, and every time it would be wasted or misused. So they are actually much worst then the Mexicans and Hispanics in the states, who at least speak English.


Buddy, you don't live in the States, do you? Mexicans here don't speak English. They speak what's it called, Spanglish. Wanna order pizza, learn Spanish. And they too have kids and are on welfare. Our government doesn't do anything about it though, cause they are a cheap, cheap labor force. If you wanna clean toilets for $4 an hour, welcome amigo. Fucking Wal-mart, they actually transported illegals to their stores from the border. They got busted and what happenned? Oh my, they got a fine. Boohooo. Just like in that one book: "Is it legal?" "Of course not, but it's profitable". America isn't a Democracy, it's a Corporacracy. And just when you thought Beauracracy blowed.

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=europe&c=russia

Here's the 2006 Report

http://hrw.org/englishwr2k7/docs/2007/01/11/russia14838.htm

Here's the Amnesty International Report on Russia

http://www.amnestyusa.org/By_Country/Russian_Federation/page.do?id=1011228&n1=3&n2=30&n3=978

Perhaps this one, where the Russians are openly using evidence gained in torture in a trial.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/02/01/russia17968.htm

And what sort of war do you think Bush wants to start here? He's not the one who made the Kosovars vote for independence, they did that all on their own. I mean, what does he gain by starting a war in this region?



From one of your links:

"A trial under way in Russia is testing the country’s commitment to ban the use of torture and evidence obtained via torture in criminal procedures. Fifty-nine men are on trial for leading an armed uprising on October 13, 2005 in Kabardino-Balkaria, in Russia’s unstable Northern Caucasus region. At least 12 of them have alleged that they were tortured and then forced to sign self-incriminating statements. Medical documentation indicates that more than half were beaten."

Umm, leading an armed uprising is a nice way of saying attempted murder of cops and army men. If you shoot at police or the army, you will be beaten in any country, even the US and the UK. Learn to read into the media, not just blindle accept its logic. If you shoot at me, sorry chump, but I am so going to torture you if I catch you. The Russians don't have Gitmo and secret prisons and they don't arrest Russian citizens on Russian soil, for having funny names and then beat and water-board them and have their Supreme Court declare it 'ok'. If you can find a Russian replica of the Padilla Case (described above), I'd believe you, otherwise you're just a Fox News addict to me.

Andaluciae - from some of your links:

"Since coming into office in 1996, president Vladimir Putin has consolidated executive power"

Putin came into office in 1999. Facts help state your case.


"A trial under way in Russia is testing the country’s commitment to ban the use of torture and evidence obtained via torture in criminal procedures. Fifty-nine men are on trial for leading an armed uprising on October 13, 2005 in Kabardino-Balkaria, in Russia’s unstable Northern Caucasus region. At least 12 of them have alleged that they were tortured and then forced to sign self-incriminating statements. Medical documentation indicates that more than half were beaten."

If you shoot at army or police in any country, even the US and the UK you will get beaten. Duh! They lead an armed uprising, means that fired on innocent civillians, military and police, which makes them terrorists. Since when do terrorists get a fair trial? Once again, your links' anti-Russian bias is clearly evident.

More fun with your links:

"independent TV and radio have been all but destroyed"
Independent Radio has been destroyed in Russia? Wow, when did that happen? Can I get just one fact that proves this point? Please? Please? Cherry please?

"And what sort of war do you think Bush wants to start here? He's not the one who made the Kosovars vote for independence, they did that all on their own. I mean, what does he gain by starting a war in this region?"

Umm, the same amount of profit that his companies want to make in Poland and the Czech. Republic. BTW, if you were investing in the Polish Missile Program don't, it turns out that the Poles are against it. What happened is that the Poles somehow found out that the missile-defense sheild has a 90% failure rating, in other words 9 out of 10 nukes will hit. This did not make the Poles feel better, and they voted their pro-US government out of power. The current Tusk government wants the EU to help Poland build a civilian airport in that location instead. The same has occurred in the Czech Rep. So then, if the missile shield totally fails, why build?

Because companies, (the same ones that led the US public to declare war on Iraq) would make a huge profit off of these installations. Now they want to build a base in Kosovo or expand the current one, because they can't invade Iran anymore. Boohoo. They only got 5 luxury liners instead of six per CEO.

Umm, the same amount of profit that his companies want to make in Poland and the Czech. Republic. BTW, if you were investing in the Polish Missile Program don't, it turns out that the Poles are against it. What happened is that the Poles somehow found out that the missile-defense sheild has a 90% failure rating, in other words 9 out of 10 nukes will hit.

Did you even bother looking at the reasons Bush gave? It wasn't even about Russia, it was about Iran, and protection from a SINGLE nuke they might have jurry-rigged to a missle. The purpose was to protect Europe from THAT.

Not a smart move, cause Iran doesn't even have missles (as we now know), but hey, bush thought they did.


A trial under way in Russia is testing the country’s commitment to ban the use of torture and evidence obtained via torture in criminal procedures. Fifty-nine men are on trial for leading an armed uprising on October 13, 2005 in Kabardino-Balkaria, in Russia’s unstable Northern Caucasus region. At least 12 of them have alleged that they were tortured and then forced to sign self-incriminating statements. Medical documentation indicates that more than half were beaten."

They weren't caught firing weapons, that is the thing. They claim that they were just rounded up and then forced to claim that they were terrorists. Missing the point FTW

I wonder, if the Yugoslavs would know that the Kosovars would be so troublesome in the 90's, would they still have protected them from the Nazis? Yugoslavia and the USSR were the only two countries to liberate themselves, unlike England which ran far far away at Dunkirk, you call it a miracle, I'll state that it was a panicky and pathetic retreat. Too bad Wellington and Blutcher weren't around just when you needed them.


*soldiers are firing wildly at an oncoming enemy. Suddenly, they see an ominous dark shape in the distance*

Soldier 1: What is that??!?!?! Is it a..
Soldier 2: TROLL!!!! TROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Conel: Shit! Sniper(read: mod), take him down, take him down, TAKE HIM DOWN!!!!!

Okay. WHAT?
Bush is threatening military action against Russia?
Is this true?

If anyone wants me, I'll be in my bunker.

(Must check it has wi-fi.)

Andaluciae - from some of your links:

"Since coming into office in 1996, president Vladimir Putin has consolidated executive power"

Putin came into office in 1999. Facts help state your case.

It's Amnesty International, a highly respected and well recognized organization, likely a typo was made.


"A trial under way in Russia is testing the country’s commitment to ban the use of torture and evidence obtained via torture in criminal procedures. Fifty-nine men are on trial for leading an armed uprising on October 13, 2005 in Kabardino-Balkaria, in Russia’s unstable Northern Caucasus region. At least 12 of them have alleged that they were tortured and then forced to sign self-incriminating statements. Medical documentation indicates that more than half were beaten."

If you shoot at army or police in any country, even the US and the UK you will get beaten. Duh! They lead an armed uprising, means that fired on innocent civillians, military and police, which makes them terrorists. Since when do terrorists get a fair trial? Once again, your links' anti-Russian bias is clearly evident.

You obviously missed the point of the article. These guys were not arrested whilst in combat, and a substantial portion of the evidence against them is through the statements that they signed after the abuse and torture.

I might add that you would be benefited by embracing the quote button.

More fun with your links:

"independent TV and radio have been all but destroyed"
Independent Radio has been destroyed in Russia? Wow, when did that happen? Can I get just one fact that proves this point? Please? Please? Cherry please?

Perhaps the fact that there isn't a single, large private television station still in operation.

As far as radio censorship, the IHT ought to provide some goodness: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/18/news/russia.php

Did you even bother looking at the reasons Bush gave? It wasn't even about Russia, it was about Iran, and protection from a SINGLE nuke they might have jurry-rigged to a missle. The purpose was to protect Europe from THAT.

Not a smart move, cause Iran doesn't even have missles (as we now know), but hey, bush thought they did.




They weren't caught firing weapons, that is the thing. They claim that they were just rounded up and then forced to claim that they were terrorists. Missing the point FTW


Even if Iran launched one missile, it would still have a 90% chance of hitting Poland. As per the US, the Iranians don't even have conventional missiles that travel that far AND they don't have nuclear warheads, AND Iran never threatened Poland or the Czech Republic. And they were caught with the weapons. If you're caught with the weapons in the Caucasian region, especially weapons that work, once again by any group, you will be beaten. If you have guns in Caucus, it is usually not to go to the mall.

*soldiers are firing wildly at an oncoming enemy. Suddenly, they see an ominous dark shape in the distance*

Soldier 1: What is that??!?!?! Is it a..
Soldier 2: TROLL!!!! TROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Conel: Shit! Sniper(read: mod), take him down, take him down, TAKE HIM DOWN!!!!!


So let me get this straight. For posting facts that you don't like, I am supposed to be kicked off? Let's recap:

Fact: USSR and Yugoslavia were the ONLY two countries to liberate themselves from Nazi rule, while Albania (where most of the Kosovar Albanians) came from, was conquered rather by Nazi Germany.

Fact: Yugoslav troops played a strategic role in the liberation of Albania.

Fact: During the "Miracle of Dunkirk" the Nazis stopped their advance on the British forces that were perfoming a panicky retreat, so panicky that they forgot to destroy their combat equiptment, guns, tanks, sidearms, which were generously left for the Nazis.

Fact: During the Battle of Waterloo, Napoleon could have beaten Wellington if one of his Corps were not engaged against Blutcher and if he sent in his entire Imperial Guard, instead of just a fraction, while keeping the rest to block Blutchers attack. In addition a quarter of Napoleon's army could not participate at Waterloo as they were blocked by Blutcher's army.

Again, all of these are historically validated facts. But when it comes to double-standards, like say Kosovo (where both sides did ethnic clensing but only one side got bombed by US Air Force,) Kosovo gets independence, whereas Darfur, a clear case of genocide, does not; well in these cases, certain people want to hide the facts by calling in the moderators. Luckily the moderators have been immune to political bias thus far.

So let me get this straight. For posting facts that you don't like, I am supposed to be kicked off? Let's recap:

Fact: USSR and Yugoslavia were the ONLY two countries to liberate themselves from Nazi rule, while Albania (where most of the Kosovar Albanians) came from, was conquered rather by Nazi Germany.

Fact: Yugoslav troops played a strategic role in the liberation of Albania.

Fact: During the "Miracle of Dunkirk" the Nazis stopped their advance on the British forces that were perfoming a panicky retreat, so panicky that they forgot to destroy their combat equiptment, guns, tanks, sidearms, which were generously left for the Nazis.

Fact: During the Battle of Waterloo, Napoleon could have beaten Wellington if one of his Corps were not engaged against Blutcher and if he sent in his entire Imperial Guard, instead of just a fraction, while keeping the rest to block Blutchers attack. In addition a quarter of Napoleon's army could not participate at Waterloo as they were blocked by Blutcher's army.

Again, all of these are historically validated facts. But when it comes to double-standards, like say Kosovo (where both sides did ethnic clensing but only one side got bombed by US Air Force,) Kosovo gets independence, whereas Darfur, a clear case of genocide, does not; well in these cases, certain people want to hide the facts by calling in the moderators. Luckily the moderators have been immune to political bias thus far.

Actually the Albanian strategy against the Nazi's was far superior to the Yugoslavs, the Yugoslavs actually aggravated Axis troops and as a result the Nazi's slaughtered thousands and razed entire towns, leaving the country a dump by the end of the world. Hoxha on the other hand stockpiled weapons and supplies in the mountains, and gathered support, so the Nazi's didn't do anything to the country really. So when the war finished and the Germans withdrew, Hoxha's troops could take over peacefully.

Actually the Albanian strategy against the Nazi's was far superior to the Yugoslavs, the Yugoslavs actually aggravated Axis troops and as a result the Nazi's slaughtered thousands and razed entire towns, leaving the country a dump by the end of the world. Hoxha on the other hand stockpiled weapons and supplies in the mountains, and gathered support, so the Nazi's didn't do anything to the country really. So when the war finished and the Germans withdrew, Hoxha's troops could take over peacefully.

So let me get this straight: sitting behind a fortification, be it natural or otherwise, is a good strategy according to you, against Nazis, right? Remember the French and the Maginot Line? Didn't work so well for France. And had the Soviets not defeated the Nazi war machine at Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kursk and Berlin, Albanians would be dead today, because they generally don't have blonde hair and blue eyes. The Serbs on the other hand FOUGHT the Nazis, instead of playing chicken; here's a historical FACT: "Enraged by Serbian bravery Hitler postpones attack on Russia for four weeks in order to punish the Serbs. The time lost means that his armies do not get to Moscow before the bitter Russian winter sets in. Eventually he looses the war. Serbian contribution to the defeat of WWII fascism is pivotal."

General Winter, certainly didn't stop Hitler's army, but delayed them until the Russians could mount a defense of Moscow (and letting additional re-enforcements arrive by train, those that weren't screwed over by Stalin's purges). The winter was equally hard on both sides, forcing both sides to stop major operation and giving both sides a time to regroup, hence the four week delay was pivotal. While the Albanians set still with machine guns, the Serbs were saving the World. Today we thank the Serbs by taking away their land and giving it to Albanians. Great message, eh?

So let me get this straight: sitting behind a fortification, be it natural or otherwise, is a good strategy according to you, against Nazis, right? Remember the French and the Maginot Line? Didn't work so well for France. And had the Soviets not defeated the Nazi war machine at Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kursk and Berlin, Albanians would be dead today, because they generally don't have blonde hair and blue eyes. The Serbs on the other hand FOUGHT the Nazis, instead of playing chicken; here's a historical FACT: "Enraged by Serbian bravery Hitler postpones attack on Russia for four weeks in order to punish the Serbs. The time lost means that his armies do not get to Moscow before the bitter Russian winter sets in. Eventually he looses the war. Serbian contribution to the defeat of WWII fascism is pivotal."

General Winter, certainly didn't stop Hitler's army, but delayed them until the Russians could mount a defense of Moscow (and letting additional re-enforcements arrive by train, those that weren't screwed over by Stalin's purges). The winter was equally hard on both sides, forcing both sides to stop major operation and giving both sides a time to regroup, hence the four week delay was pivotal. While the Albanians set still with machine guns, the Serbs were saving the World. Today we thank the Serbs by taking away their land and giving it to Albanians. Great message, eh?

How about you stop being such a sectarian mate, it was the Yugoslavs who fought Hitler, not the Serbs or anyone else, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what Tito was all about.

Personally, I think Tito would have a heart attack if he heard the Kosovar story. Tito was all about Yugoslav unity, with the capital at Belgrade. If Tito would know that Belgrade would be bombed and Yugoslavia be torn apart, he would not be happy. The point I was making is that Kosovo's independence is completely unjust. You prove me correct when you state that Tito wouldn't be sectarian. Case in point, he wouldn't support the Independence of Kosovo, which has been my argument all along. I'm not the sectarian mate. You were the one who pointed out that Yugoslavs fought, whereas Albanians hid in mountains, and Kosovo is a lot more friendly to Albania then any country in former Yugoslavia, even Bosnia. And more Serbs fought Hitler in Yugoslavia, then the rest of Yugoslavs, combined.

Umm, I don't support the independence of Kosovo, see the thread I recently made about this. My criticism of your position is that your talking about 'Serbs', I understand that Yugoslavia is gone and won't be coming back, but the Balkans needs to stop thinking in terms of ethnicities.

How about you stop being such a sectarian mate, it was the Yugoslavs who fought Hitler, not the Serbs or anyone else, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what Tito was all about.

Personally, I think Tito would have a heart attack if he heard the Kosovar story. Tito was all about Yugoslav unity, with the capital at Belgrade. If Tito would know that Belgrade would be bombed and Yugoslavia be torn apart, he would not be happy. The point I was making is that Kosovo's independence is completely unjust. You prove me correct when you state that Tito wouldn't be sectarian. Case in point, he wouldn't support the Independence of Kosovo, which has been my argument all along. I'm not the sectarian mate. You were the one who pointed out that Yugoslavs fought, whereas Albanians hid in mountains, and Kosovo is a lot more friendly to Albania then any country in former Yugoslavia, even Bosnia. And more Serbs fought Hitler in Yugoslavia, then the rest of Yugoslavs, combined.

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." <snip>

<snip> ... certain people want to hide the facts by calling in the moderators. Luckily the moderators have been immune to political bias thus far.

We are, however, markedly biased in favour of cordial debate.

Everyone, stick to attacking the argument, not the person behind it, and remember that your interpretation of "the facts" may not be accepted as such by others. Linking to sources helps, too.