NationStates Jolt Archive

I am 16 years old and I am a junior in high school. Does anyone know if it is mandatory to stand to say the pledge of allegience at public high schools? And do you think it should or shouldn't be?

I was told that a teacher cannot force you to stand and face the flag for the pledge. I assumed that the right to sit and not say the pledge of allegience was protected under the First Ammendment. And so for the past two years, I have always sat during the pledge. It's not because I'm lazy (that seems to be the reason for most of the other kids that don't stand), it is simply against my personal beliefs. I don't believe in nationalism. And quite simply, like most people in the world, I disagree with the direction that the United States is headed in, for a multitude of reasons.

A reason I'm posting this is because an incident occured yesturday at my school. I have gym class 2nd hour, which is when the daily pledge of allegience and the rest of announcements occur. There is a gym teacher at our school, Coach Machado, who is also the head football coach. Now I want you to picture THE most stereotypical football coach you can imagine. Middle-aged, tough, hard-ass, brainless, racist, sexist, homophobic, patriotic, American football coach. If you've ever seen the movie Saving Silverman, picture the football coach from that movie (except not gay!).

A good friend of mine told me that he was once verbally harassed by Coach Machado for not standing for the pledge of allegience. On the first day of the new semester, I saw him actually make a kid stand for the pledge. And on the second day of the new semester, it was my turn. Yesturday, like everyday, I chose not to stand for the pledge of allegience. I was not talking during it, nor was I being disruptive at all. I just simply sat quietly while everyone else stood. After it was over, he pointed at me and told me to come into his office. He then proceed to yell at me for about two minutes. I tried to explain to him that I don't have to stand for the pledge. I wasn't about to just sit there and take it. However he would not even let me get two words in to defend myself. And I wasn't about to start swearing at him, or engage in a shouting match, so I was quiet most of the time.

I don't mean to make a big deal out of this, and act like I'm the victim of some grave injustice. I would just like to start a discussion on this and get some of your opinions. I really hope this doesn't become an everyday incident with Coach Machado for the rest of the year. If it does, what do you think I should do?

I don't know if it is mandatory or not, though everyone stood up at my school, you should do it anyway, as a sign of respect. You don't even have to say the words, you can just act like you are saying them, but at least stand up to pay your respect.

Does anyone know if it is mandatory to stand to say the pledge of allegience at public high schools?

It's illegal to force you to say it. I don't know where standing fits in.

And do you think it should or shouldn't be?

The Pledge of Allegiance shouldn't be recited at all, but if it is, neither saying it nor standing should be mandatory.

but at least stand up to pay your respect.

Pay your respect to what?

Pay your respect to what?

The country?

Kick him in the balls. Then give him the one finger salute, and make up some totally asinine pledge and say it to him as he is in pain. The tape it. And post it here, for our amusement.

The country?

What type of respect does the country deserve?

I don't know if it is mandatory or not, though everyone stood up at my school, you should do it anyway, as a sign of respect. You don't even have to say the words, you can just act like you are saying them, but at least stand up to pay your respect.

Acting this way is anything but respectful in my opinion. Not participating is far less hypocritical.

it may be a school rule that you have to stand, but it isn't here, the JW's refuse to stand and the school can't make them.

Talk to your principal about it, explain that you don't mind being quiet and respectful of other's choices, but that you don't choose to participate.

Acting this way is anything but respectful in my opinion. Not participating is far less hypocritical.

I see your point, but it would save the OP a lot of trouble with the coach.

Buy a cheap tape recorder. The next day at school, sit during the pledge, and when Coach Asshead takes you into his office, quietly turn the recorder (hidden conveniently in your pocket) on.

Then post it on Youtube.

Await his firing.

The country?

What's that? A bunch of land between two imaginary lines on a map? But there's no reason to respect that. The people within that territory? There's plenty of reason to respect them, but not as a national unit. The government? I owe it perhaps a certain kind of obedience, but not "respect" in the sense that I should salute its symbols--not when I think it is illegitimate and disagree with most of its policies.

I'm pretty sure that it is illegal to force someone to say the Pledge. I'd probably not stand up and say it since I refuse to swear allegiance to the Federal government, but I'd probably lower my head only out of respect for my dad and grandfather who served in the military. My kids, though, may do as they wish so long as they are not disruptive.

I see your point, but it would save the OP a lot of trouble with the coach.

True. Though ironically, not standing up for what you believe to be right (or remaining seated in this case) is somewhat at odds with the spirit of the pledge ;)

We plunged Mohicans to the slag, for the unmined crates of the minerals, unto the Republicans, for vicious stands, one corporation, underground, invisible, with libertine adjustments for all.

A reason I'm posting this is because an incident occured yesturday at my school. I have gym class 2nd hour, which is when the daily pledge of allegience and the rest of announcements occur. There is a gym teacher at our school, Coach Machado, who is also the head football coach. Now I want you to picture THE most stereotypical football coach you can imagine. Middle-aged, tough, hard-ass, brainless, racist, sexist, homophobic, patriotic, American football coach. If you've ever seen the movie Saving Silverman, picture the football coach from that movie (except not gay!).

He's gay. *nod*

It is illegal for him to make you say the pledge and to make you stand up. Do you live in the South, by any chance? In the South you're forced to no matter what your personal beliefs are, depending on the teacher. I've seen that happen a few times here but nothing appears to have been done about it.

But really, you should report him for harassing you, and like suggested before, record it if you can.

He's gay. *nod*

That's what I was thinking...

I am 16 years old and I am a junior in high school. Does anyone know if it is mandatory to stand to say the pledge of allegience at public high schools? And do you think it should or shouldn't be?

I was told that a teacher cannot force you to stand and face the flag for the pledge. I assumed that the right to sit and not say the pledge of allegience was protected under the First Ammendment. And so for the past two years, I have always sat during the pledge. It's not because I'm lazy (that seems to be the reason for most of the other kids that don't stand), it is simply against my personal beliefs. I don't believe in nationalism. And quite simply, like most people in the world, I disagree with the direction that the United States is headed in, for a multitude of reasons.

A reason I'm posting this is because an incident occured yesturday at my school. I have gym class 2nd hour, which is when the daily pledge of allegience and the rest of announcements occur. There is a gym teacher at our school, Coach Machado, who is also the head football coach. Now I want you to picture THE most stereotypical football coach you can imagine. Middle-aged, tough, hard-ass, brainless, racist, sexist, homophobic, patriotic, American football coach. If you've ever seen the movie Saving Silverman, picture the football coach from that movie (except not gay!).

A good friend of mine told me that he was once verbally harassed by Coach Machado for not standing for the pledge of allegience. On the first day of the new semester, I saw him actually make a kid stand for the pledge. And on the second day of the new semester, it was my turn. Yesturday, like everyday, I chose not to stand for the pledge of allegience. I was not talking during it, nor was I being disruptive at all. I just simply sat quietly while everyone else stood. After it was over, he pointed at me and told me to come into his office. He then proceed to yell at me for about two minutes. I tried to explain to him that I don't have to stand for the pledge. I wasn't about to just sit there and take it. However he would not even let me get two words in to defend myself. And I wasn't about to start swearing at him, or engage in a shouting match, so I was quiet most of the time.

I don't mean to make a big deal out of this, and act like I'm the victim of some grave injustice. I would just like to start a discussion on this and get some of your opinions. I really hope this doesn't become an everyday incident with Coach Machado for the rest of the year. If it does, what do you think I should do?

Good for you. Fuck nationalism and fuck that stupid piece of nylon/cotton mix that people salute and sing to. Tell your teacher to stop brainwashing you.

He's gay. *nod*
Yeah, his yelling is his way of coming out of the closet.

I don't think I've said the Pledge once in the last 4 years of school. In most places it's not mandatory, so long as you don't disrupt other people who choose to stand.

Yeah, his yelling is his way of coming out of the closet.

No one spends that much time in the gym who's not hot for cock. Gym queens, creepy lot.

..Did you ever think to ask him later. why he so insistant about you showing respect for our flag and country?

if he's the age you make him out to be,he could have been in Korea,or Nam himself.Or maybe has a child of his own fighting far away from home now.That would make a person who's given alot to his country for the protection of his home and family. more than a bit miffed at someone who by their actions showed that perhaps they didn't care.That could get taken personally REAL quick.

I will never understand why you guys have a Pledge and salute the flag a lot.

*Imagines saluting the Unon Jack and singing God Save The Queen everyday*....*shudders*

..Did you ever think to ask him later. why he so insistant about you showing respect for our flag and country?

if he's the age you make him out to be,he could have been in Korea,or Nam himself.Or maybe has a child of his own fighting far away from home now.That would make a person who's given alot to his country for the protection of his home and family. more than a bit miffed at someone who by their actions showed that perhaps they didn't care.That could get taken personally REAL quick.

Yes, because not saluting a flag is akin to insulting human beings. [/sarcasm]

Tell him you're sorry you hurt his feelings and if he needs someone to talk to about his emotional problems, give him the phone number of a psychiatrist out of your phone book then run away.
Or just stand during the pledge so you don't get picked out, then cover the Gym teachers car with red/white and blue paint (in stars and stripes if you have the time), then run like hell, and stop for nothing.
Or tell your parents about this and get written complaints in, that or get a pettition and hand it to a local news paper about how your rights have been ignored, general bad publicity for the school.
Or find out what his address is (i dunno look in a phone book) then order a gay stripper to go to his house where (give a false name but his address) he goes there, preferably in the middle of the day when he has visitors over.*evil grin*.
Or tell him to back off or you're going to sue him.
Or don't sit during the pledge and like other posters have said take a recording device in with you then hand it over to a news team, or your head principle. Or if you have a tannoy service try and find a way to play the recording over the tannoy (best for when the school is busy and full of people).
Or you could kick up a fuss with your principle.
hope that helps.:)

Yes, because not saluting a flag is akin to insulting human beings. [/sarcasm]

no, but it would give him an in when debating the subject "didn't you join the armed forces so I could have my freedoms?"

see?

That's awesome. There was a court case about this a few years ago, and I know many districts require a note from your parents, but it is your right to remain seated.

No one spends that much time in the gym who's not hot for cock. Gym queens, creepy lot.

No, we'r... I mean, no they're not!

I will never understand why you guys have a Pledge and salute the flag a lot.

*Imagines saluting the Unon Jack and singing God Save The Queen everyday*....*shudders*

It has a lot to do with our weak national identity. We engage in all of these quasi-Buddhist, semi-religious rituals to make up for our complete and total lack of anything resembling the traditional hallmarks of the nation-state. I mean, for godssakes, we don't even have a single, national language, let alone religion. Thus, what we lack in substance we make up for in vigor.

I'm not joking about this either, I've seen extensive opinion studies that indicate that the attachment of the average American to his or her identity with the nation-state is shockingly weak, for all of the pomp we put on, and that our sense of identity is substantially less well-developed than that of, say, Germany or Italy, let alone the United Kingdom.

We're just weird like that.

I am 16 years old and I am a junior in high school. Does anyone know if it is mandatory to stand to say the pledge of allegience at public high schools? And do you think it should or shouldn't be?

I was told that a teacher cannot force you to stand and face the flag for the pledge. I assumed that the right to sit and not say the pledge of allegience was protected under the First Ammendment. And so for the past two years, I have always sat during the pledge. It's not because I'm lazy (that seems to be the reason for most of the other kids that don't stand), it is simply against my personal beliefs. I don't believe in nationalism. And quite simply, like most people in the world, I disagree with the direction that the United States is headed in, for a multitude of reasons.

A reason I'm posting this is because an incident occured yesturday at my school. I have gym class 2nd hour, which is when the daily pledge of allegience and the rest of announcements occur. There is a gym teacher at our school, Coach Machado, who is also the head football coach. Now I want you to picture THE most stereotypical football coach you can imagine. Middle-aged, tough, hard-ass, brainless, racist, sexist, homophobic, patriotic, American football coach. If you've ever seen the movie Saving Silverman, picture the football coach from that movie (except not gay!).

A good friend of mine told me that he was once verbally harassed by Coach Machado for not standing for the pledge of allegience. On the first day of the new semester, I saw him actually make a kid stand for the pledge. And on the second day of the new semester, it was my turn. Yesturday, like everyday, I chose not to stand for the pledge of allegience. I was not talking during it, nor was I being disruptive at all. I just simply sat quietly while everyone else stood. After it was over, he pointed at me and told me to come into his office. He then proceed to yell at me for about two minutes. I tried to explain to him that I don't have to stand for the pledge. I wasn't about to just sit there and take it. However he would not even let me get two words in to defend myself. And I wasn't about to start swearing at him, or engage in a shouting match, so I was quiet most of the time.

I don't mean to make a big deal out of this, and act like I'm the victim of some grave injustice. I would just like to start a discussion on this and get some of your opinions. I really hope this doesn't become an everyday incident with Coach Machado for the rest of the year. If it does, what do you think I should do?

You are right. You cannot be compelled to stand for or recite the Pledge.

The seminal case is West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624), 319 U.S. 624 (1943). I'd read it and (if you are worried about it) take a copy that you can give to your teacher.

This part is particularly good (emphasis added):

The case is made difficult not because the principles of its decision are obscure but because the flag involved is our own. Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization. To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order.

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.

We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control.

Also, there are copious precedents that make crystal clear that you do not have to stand for or recite the Pledge. These are all federal court decisions. See, e.g., Holloman v. Harland, 370 F.3d 1252 (11th Cir 2004) (holding that student's rights were violated when he was punished for not saying the pledge and for standing with a raised fist during the pledge), Walker-Serrano v. Leonard, 325 F.3d 412 (3d Cir. 2003) ("For over fifty years, the law has protected elementary students' rights to refrain from reciting the pledge of allegiance to our flag. W. Va. State Bd. of Ed. v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943). Punishing a child for non-disruptively expressing her opposition to recitation of the pledge would seem to be as offensive to the First Amendment as requiring its oration."), Lipp v. Morris, 579 F.2d 834 (3d Cir.1978) (agreeing with plaintiff, Deborah Lipp, “that her right to remain silent and not be forced to stand springs directly from the precise First Amendment right against compelled participation in the flag ceremony recognized in Barnette.”), Goetz v. Ansell, 477 F.2d 636 (2d Cir. 1973) (“the alternative offered plaintiff of standing in silence is an act that cannot be compelled over his deeply held convictions. It can no more be required than the pledge itself.”), Banks v. Bd of Public Instr., 450 F.2d 1103 (5th Cir. 1971) (“The conduct of Andrew Banks in refusing to stand during the pledge ceremony constituted an expression of his religious beliefs and political opinions. His refusal to stand was no less a form of expression than the wearing of the black armband was to Mary Beth Tinker. He was exercising a right ‘akin to pure speech.’”), Rabideau v. Beekmantown Central School District, 89 F.Supp.2d 263 (N.D.N.Y. 2000) (“It is well established that a school may not require its students to stand for or recite the Pledge of Allegiance or punish any student for his/her failure to do so.”).

No, he cannot do that. If he yells at you like that again then either go to the principal or someone higher, and go with your parents. Teachers are there to teach you, NOT scream at you for not standing up and recite something to a peice of fabric. I choose to not stand up for the pledge of alligance for the same reasons as you. You don't need to stand up or fake mouth the words, you do need to stand up for yourself though.

It has a lot to do with our weak national identity. We engage in all of these quasi-Buddhist, semi-religious rituals to make up for our complete and total lack of anything resembling the traditional hallmarks of the nation-state. I mean, for godssakes, we don't even have a single, national language, let alone religion. Thus, what we lack in substance we make up for in vigor.

I'm not joking about this either, I've seen extensive opinion studies that indicate that the attachment of the average American to his or her identity with the nation-state is shockingly weak, for all of the pomp we put on, and that our sense of identity is substantially less well-developed than that of, say, Germany or Italy, let alone the United Kingdom.

We're just weird like that.

That's true. But we don't have a strong heritage like the other countries and we allow ourselves to be critical about the US. I never seen anyone French with quite the same remorse about Algeria that I've seen expressed in Americans about the Indian Wars.

And just to say to the OP, you're perfectly within your rights to not say the pledge. I would give it some respect though. After all it is (or represents) the reason you're receiving that free education that most of the world covets so badly.

The way I see it you have two options: passive resistance and active(aka hilarious) resistance.

Passive resistance is basically refusing to say the pledge, just sitting quietly.

Hilarious resistance is where you bring in the flag of Soviet Russia and recite a pledge to it in Russian.

Hail the former soviet union and current chinese government if thats where your allegience truly lies.
1950’s humour!

Does it get any better than this?

Cant force you to stand, and his behavior could cost him his job. This is coming from someone currently student teaching at a high school. Id complain. But thats just me.

I actually had a similar incident in high school too. Only with me it wasnt refusing, I was getting my books out of my backpack. My teacher told me I was disrespectful blah blah blah and actually in seriousness called me a communist. I complained. I recieved a written formal apology from said teacher 3days later.

In all seriousness, your gym teacher's (And I use the term "teacher" very loosley here) behavior is reason enough not to stand and say the pledge. But that might be my petty side talkin.

Hail the former soviet union and current chinese government if thats where your allegiance truly lies.

The US government killed too many Natives for you to show disrespect to our soldiers who spent lifetimes trying to pull off that genocide.

At least respect the work they did.

for people without a sense of humor/sarcasm detector that was sarcastic.

I've often wondered about that. I very nearly got moved to Denver with my family when I was 13 (1988), and I wondered how that was going to work. I wasn't an American, so if asked to take part in the pledge of alliegance, there were going to be two problems.

1. I didn't know the pledge of alliegance.

2. I didn't so pledge.

Since I would have been a foreign national, I wouldn't have had any alliegance toward the flag, or the nation for which it stood.

It has a lot to do with our weak national identity. We engage in all of these quasi-Buddhist, semi-religious rituals to make up for our complete and total lack of anything resembling the traditional hallmarks of the nation-state. I mean, for godssakes, we don't even have a single, national language, let alone religion. Thus, what we lack in substance we make up for in vigor.

I'm not joking about this either, I've seen extensive opinion studies that indicate that the attachment of the average American to his or her identity with the nation-state is shockingly weak, for all of the pomp we put on, and that our sense of identity is substantially less well-developed than that of, say, Germany or Italy, let alone the United Kingdom.

We're just weird like that.

I think it's because the United States started out as a nation of immigrants, each with their own particular customs who tended to cling together. This, obviously, is inimical to one national identity. Then when the state took over the functions or weakened traditional institutions through public education, old age, disability and survivor's insurance, unemployment insurance, inheritance taxes, debasement of the money supply, etc., we saw the end of the kinds of enclaves and the institutions that supported them (described in Death and Life of Great American Cities) and a population more homogenous in culture. Of course, now lacking any kind of subsidiary institutions, we are basically floating about in a void of alienation connected only by our geographical proximity and political elite.

no, but it would give him an in when debating the subject "didn't you join the armed forces so I could have my freedoms?"

see?

I do see. [no sarcasm]

This actually happened to me in high school. But I went to private school and they could kick me out for refusing to stand at the pledge of allegiance. I actually got suspended from the cross country team for playing with my shoe during school mass. I had to write a letter of apology to God.

1950’s humour!

Does it get any better than this?

1940's humor?

I think it's because the United States started out as a nation of immigrants, each with their own particular customs who tended to cling together. This, obviously, is inimical to one national identity. Then when the state took over the functions or weakened traditional institutions through public education, old age, disability and survivor's insurance, unemployment insurance, inheritance taxes, debasement of the money supply, etc., we saw the end of the kinds of enclaves and the institutions that supported them (described in Death and Life of Great American Cities) and a population more homogenous in culture. Of course, now lacking any kind of subsidiary institutions, we are basically floating about in a void of alienation connected only by our geographical proximity and political elite.

And our desire to get rich. If our economy collapsed, much of what holds the nation together would fall apart.

1940's humor?

Oh, then he'll just accuse him of being in league with the Tokio kid.

1940’s humor?
*cracks joke about King Leopold III*

And our desire to get rich. If our economy collapsed, much of what holds the nation together would fall apart.

Hm, that too. I imagine that if we had to go from working all day and spending like crazy to (God forbid) picking out garbage to eat, all the people around us who we have no connection to and previously ignored would just become so much competition for survival.

I actually got suspended from the cross country team for playing with my shoe during school mass. I had to write a letter of apology to God.

A good friend of mine told me that he was once verbally harassed by Coach Machado for not standing for the pledge of allegience. On the first day of the new semester, I saw him actually make a kid stand for the pledge. And on the second day of the new semester, it was my turn. Yesturday, like everyday, I chose not to stand for the pledge of allegience. I was not talking during it, nor was I being disruptive at all. I just simply sat quietly while everyone else stood. After it was over, he pointed at me and told me to come into his office. He then proceed to yell at me for about two minutes. I tried to explain to him that I don’t have to stand for the pledge. I wasn’t about to just sit there and take it. However he would not even let me get two words in to defend myself. And I wasn’t about to start swearing at him, or engage in a shouting match, so I was quiet most of the time.
Fucking disgusting behaviour on the parts of both your teachers.

I had to write a letter of apology to God.
Interesting! Did they give you his mailing address?

Interesting! Did they give you his mailing address?

Semi-related fact:
The pope has an email address (benedictxvi@vatican.va)

I always thought it was pretty counterproductive, if the hope was instilling some kind of national pride. It's always said in the morning when kids are dead tired and don't feel like standing up at all. So it becomes a chore.

I think the pledge is pretty ridiculous really. Especially at sporting events. Not as ridiculous as half-time music shows through.

Interesting! Did they give you his mailing address?

No, but I had to get my parents to sign the letter and then show it to my coach. I told my mom that I was an atheist and that I was bullshitting the letter to get back on the CC team. She just signed and said "alright son but I don't like you lying".

My science teacher makes us stand for the pledge of alliegence every morning, and if we dont stand she makes the class stand for the entire class period. I have extremly weak legs so I cant stand more than 15 minuts at a time and she fails to understand this so I'm forced to stand for the pledge even though I dont believe I have to say it at all to show that I care about my country, or state, for that matter, because they also make us say the Texas pledge of alliegence

Fucking disgusting behaviour on the parts of both your teachers.

You don't know the half of it. I told my religion teacher, who was a priest, that monks were self-righteous idiots and he kicked me out class. Woo I am glad to be out of high school.

Well I don't know if its illegal not to,but I always stand and put my hand over my heart. Thats traditional. For the National Anthem you have to be reverent, but putting your hand over your heart insn't the same tradition. You have to be reverent for both really. Sitting might not be considered respectful. Hes proabaly an A-hole and probably over-patriotic, but it isn't "nationilism" to stand for the pledge. Honostly, I'm open minded but when people say that stuff its sort of annoying. Honostly is it so bad to have a little pride in your country. We're not Nazi Germany, so you don't like where America is going, the best thing you can do is be proud in your country because you can change it. Believe that America will bounce back, help your country, don't just resist.

EDIT: Here (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/4/4.html) is something I found through a couple of links in Wiki. It reads-- The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: “I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”, should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute.

He might have overreacted I wasn't there,but he is right.

My science teacher makes us stand for the pledge of alliegence every morning, and if we dont stand she makes the class stand for the entire class period. I have extremly weak legs so I cant stand more than 15 minuts at a time and she fails to understand this so I'm forced to stand for the pledge even though I dont believe I have to say it at all to show that I care about my country, or state, for that matter, because they also make us say the Texas pledge of alliegence

I can understand not wanting to say the national pledge of allegiance but what do you have against Texas?

I can understand not wanting to say the national pledge of allegiance but what do you have against Texas?

I have nothing agianst Texas, I just get tired of hearing about how great it is. At home my Granny is constantly saying how great it is and how big a part my family played in the Texan Revolution and yadda yadda yadda. I just want to get a break from all this at school.

I had to write a letter of apology to God.

Did God ever reply?

("Dear Soyut,

No biggie about the shoe thing - just cut it out with the "coveting" of that hot girl from St. Teresa's, or you'll go blind, you know what I'm saying?

Yours in Me,

God.")

My science teacher makes us stand for the pledge of alliegence every morning, and if we dont stand she makes the class stand for the entire class period. I have extremly weak legs so I cant stand more than 15 minuts at a time and she fails to understand this so I'm forced to stand for the pledge even though I dont believe I have to say it at all to show that I care about my country, or state, for that matter, because they also make us say the Texas pledge of alliegence


Again, I recommend complaining.


Mmmm....getting teachers fired...

That's pretty great that you cannot imagine pledging allegiance to the country you live and which provides the freedoms you enjoy. The Pledge of Allegiance is to the United States, not Bush or Congress or the military or the founding fathers. It's not a religion or propaganda. It's a simple commitment to the country in which you live. I can't imagine direspecting the millions of men and women that fought and died for this country by refusing to show any spirit for the flag. What a tremendous insult.

Hmm, well I am glad Australia doesn't have a pledge of allegiance.

I have always toyed with the thought of what would happen if such a thing was enforced in the England (not any of the others because I doubt the flags would make it into the schools)

Woo I am glad to be out of high school.

Pfft you got it easy I was an atheist non-monarchist in a Christian army of the monarchy, I've spent time in a cell bitches! (I didn't even know the national anthem at the time:p)

You are not required to salute the flag or say the pledge (West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 [1943]).


ETA: from the concurring decision,
Words uttered under coercion are proof of loyalty to nothing but self-interest. Love of country must spring from willing hearts and free minds, inspired by a fair administration of wise laws enacted by the people's elected representatives within the bounds of express constitutional prohibitions

That's pretty great that you cannot imagine pledging allegiance to the country you live and which provides the freedoms you enjoy. The Pledge of Allegiance is to the United States, not Bush or Congress or the military or the founding fathers. It's not a religion or propaganda. It's a simple commitment to the country in which you live. I can't imagine direspecting the millions of men and women that fought and died for this country by refusing to show any spirit for the flag. What a tremendous insult.

lol, I notice a disconnect here.

The pledge of allegiance is to the US, not to the military. I cannot imagine disrespecting the millions of men and women that fought and died for this country by... wait what?

lol, I notice a disconnect here.

The pledge of allegiance is to the US, not to the military. I cannot imagine disrespecting the millions of men and women that fought and died for this country by... wait what?

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States...." How did we get to be a country except a war? We fought the Revolutionary War and our flag represents us as a separate country. We fought WWI and WWII under the star-spangled banner. The pledge of allegience isn't a verbal consent to enlist. It's a simple promise to show fidelity to the nation. The people that fought to get us a country and the people that keep us from harm fight for what the flag represents.

Don't construe someone's love and respect for a country to mean that they're going to join the army.

That's pretty great that you cannot imagine pledging allegiance to the country you live and which provides the freedoms you enjoy. The Pledge of Allegiance is to the United States, not Bush or Congress or the military or the founding fathers. It's not a religion or propaganda. It's a simple commitment to the country in which you live. I can't imagine direspecting the millions of men and women that fought and died for this country by refusing to show any spirit for the flag. What a tremendous insult.

I'm just a foreigner, but even I know the words of your pledge better than you. It's to the flag of the USA, not to the USA.
so who provides all my un-American freedoms :confused:

and how does a nation produce freedom?
Freedom mines.

That's pretty great that you cannot imagine pledging allegiance to the country you live and which provides the freedoms you enjoy.

so who provides all my un-American freedoms :confused:

and how does a nation produce freedom?

The Pledge of Allegiance is to the United States, not Bush or Congress or the military or the founding fathers. It's not a religion or propaganda. It's a simple commitment to the country in which you live.

and why should anyone do such a thing? surely it would be better at the very least to pledge to freedom or something?

I can't imagine direspecting the millions of men and women that fought and died for this country by refusing to show any spirit for the flag. What a tremendous insult.

what about the Millions around the world who have fought and died so that they can't be forced to commit such acts

or maybe the ones who went against their oh so glorious nations to do whats right?

Pfft you got it easy I was an atheist non-monarchist in a Christian army of the monarchy, I've spent time in a cell bitches! (I didn't even know the national anthem at the time:p)

oh shit! wow, I wanna hear that story!

so who provides all my un-American freedoms :confused:
and how does a nation produce freedom?
and why should anyone do such a thing? surely it would be better at the very least to pledge to freedom or something?
what about the Millions around the world who have fought and died so that they can't be forced to commit such acts
or maybe the ones who went against their oh so glorious nations to do whats right?

What would your un-American freedoms be? If you have freedoms and you're from another country, it's that country that provides them. America isn't the only free country in the world.

A country allows freedoms. If you want to see a difference, check out the Stalin-era Russia or Mussolini's Italy.

Why should anyone pledge to support their country "with liberty and justice for all"? If they don't want liberty and justice for all, I can't answer that.

I didn't say it should be mandated, just that I find ignoring it insulting.

I don't think snubbing your nose at showing fealty to your country is "doing what's right".

I'm just a foreigner, but even I know the words of your pledge better than you. It's to the flag of the USA, not to the USA.


You can't seriously think I would make an argument in favor of the Pledge of Allegiance without knowing the words. It's to the flag and country.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Freedom mines.

Manned by Mexican slave-laborers. *nods*

Why should anyone pledge to support their country "with liberty and justice for all"? If they don't want liberty and justice for all, I can't answer that.

I didn't say it should be mandated, just that I find ignoring it insulting.

I don't think snubbing your nose at showing fealty to your country is "doing what's right".
When we actually start providing liberty and justice to all, I'll consider saying it.

What would your un-American freedoms be? If you have freedoms and you're from another country, it's that country that provides them. America isn't the only free country in the world.

A country allows freedoms. If you want to see a difference, check out the Stalin-era Russia or Mussolini's Italy.

Why should anyone pledge to support their country "with liberty and justice for all"? If they don't want liberty and justice for all, I can't answer that.

I didn't say it should be mandated, just that I find ignoring it insulting.

I don't think snubbing your nose at showing fealty to your country is "doing what's right".

How do you define "country"?

When we actually start providing liberty and justice to all, I'll consider saying it.

OK let's just wait until everything is a perfect utopia before we support it. That's a good way to look at things. Let's not even try until then. Just sit and sulk about how things aren't working out the way they do in movies.

OK let's just wait until everything is a perfect utopia before we support it. That's a good way to look at things. Let's not even try until then. Just sit and sulk about how things aren't working out the way they do in movies.

Perhaps stop pretending that the US is a utopia would be a start?

You can't seriously think I would make an argument in favor of the Pledge of Allegiance without knowing the words. It's to the flag and country.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

There is no country called the United States of America that provides liberty and justice for all, so I don't know what country you think you're pledging allegiance to.

OK let's just wait until everything is a perfect utopia before we support it. That's a good way to look at things. Let's not even try until then. Just sit and sulk about how things aren't working out the way they do in movies.

hell, i may even start if we made a decent attempt, rather than passing DoMA laws

I enjoy the US...I just have no need to speak empty words.

How do you define "country"?

A country is both a piece of land upon which lives a sovereign population, and whose sovereignty is acknowledged by other countries, as well as the collection of ideals that that population embodies.

That's my very basic look at a "country".

I always thought it was pretty counterproductive, if the hope was instilling some kind of national pride. It's always said in the morning when kids are dead tired and don't feel like standing up at all. So it becomes a chore.

I think the pledge is pretty ridiculous really. Especially at sporting events. Not as ridiculous as half-time music shows through.

Who says the pledge at sporting events? I've been going to college football games all my life, and some baseball games, and the national anthem is played, but there's no pledge.

Oh, and by the way, college football halftime shows fucking own. Especially with the Cal Band.

My history professor said that NATIONALISM is the truly defining characteristic of the 19th century. Nobody used to really care where they lived as long as they were relatively free and healthy, why is it that most of us care now?

hell, i may even start if we made a decent attempt, rather than passing DoMA laws

I enjoy the US...I just have no need to speak empty words.

Yeah we have a long way to go. The politicians and congressional members haven't done much of anything to improve the US for the last 20 years. I'm sick and tired of pork barrel projects and voting straight down party lines. However, I would rather be here in the US than a million other places in the world, and I am proud of what it means when I say the Pledge.

I'm not proud of what incredible a**holes so many Americans are when they go abroad....

and why should anyone do such a thing? surely it would be better at the very least to pledge to freedom or something?

I pledge my allegiance to my lack of allegiance :p



what about the Millions around the world who have fought and died so that they can't be forced to commit such acts

or maybe the ones who went against their oh so glorious nations to do whats right?

He's not advocating that it should be mandatory (which, as you said, is contradictory to the millions of deaths), he's just saying it's tremendously insulting and rather douchebaggish. And like he said earlier, the pledge is to the flag and the republic, not to Bush or Congress or the reigning administration. Unless you fundamentally disagree with the ideals of the nation, saying the pledge should be no problem, regardless of whatever you think is wrong with the current administration. Actually, peace protesters would probably be more effective if they said the pledge while rioting as opposed to burning flags.

I pledge my allegiance to my lack of allegiance :p




He's not advocating that it should be mandatory (which, as you said, is contradictory to the millions of deaths), he's just saying it's tremendously insulting and rather douchebaggish. And like he said earlier, the pledge is to the flag and the republic, not to Bush or Congress or the reigning administration. Unless you fundamentally disagree with the ideals of the nation, saying the pledge should be no problem, regardless of whatever you think is wrong with the current administration. Actually, peace protesters would probably be more effective if they said the pledge while rioting as opposed to burning flags.


Maybe some of us refuse to say the pledge because we are opposed to nationalsim and blind patriotism in all its forms. Knowing the history of this country (uncensored) makes being blindly patriotic slightly diffacult.

There is no country called the United States of America that provides liberty and justice for all, so I don't know what country you think you're pledging allegiance to.

Back to utopia. There is nowhere in the world you can find absolute liberty and justice for all, mostly because so many people think they're getting screwed somehow. Two people -- one smokes pot, the other is anti-marijuana. NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO one of them is going to feel things are unfair. You will never be able to prove liberty OR justice to either one. The courts, the police, the military, the laws of the US are set up to attempt to provide liberty and justice for everyone. No they aren't perfect, ergo we create more laws and policies all the time. But isn't the pursuit worthwhile? Trying for a good cause is an action to support, not belittle and refuse to support until it's all done. Chances are, it'll never be all settled.

A country is both a piece of land upon which lives a sovereign population, and whose sovereignty is acknowledged by other countries, as well as the collection of ideals that that population embodies.

That's my very basic look at a "country".

I find it interesting that you used the word 'fealty', a word thats primary definition indicates an obligation from a vassal to their lord, to describe the relationship between a citizen and their country. Especially considering your earlier posts about how people should be proud of the freedoms afforded by the US.

He's not advocating that it should be mandatory (which, as you said, is contradictory to the millions of deaths), he's just saying it's tremendously insulting and rather douchebaggish. And like he said earlier, the pledge is to the flag and the republic, not to Bush or Congress or the reigning administration. Unless you fundamentally disagree with the ideals of the nation, saying the pledge should be no problem, regardless of whatever you think is wrong with the current administration. Actually, peace protesters would probably be more effective if they said the pledge while rioting as opposed to burning flags.

Or maybe we're opposed to the utter bastardization that the pledge became in 1954. (Also when it was first written. They forced the author to remove the word "equality".)

Edit: Incidentally, there's a damn good reason that they burn flags. It's what you're supposed to do when the flag is soiled.

Maybe some of us refuse to say the pledge because we are opposed to nationalsim and blind patriotism in all its forms. Knowing the history of this country (uncensored) makes being blindly patriotic slightly diffacult.

Well, here is a question for you. Do you believe in the ideals and principles the United States was founded upon, regardless of whether we follow them today (or have historically followed them)? Do you believe what in what the Constitution, Declaration, and Bill of Rights has to say, as well as the underlying ideologies?


Edit: Incidentally, there's a damn good reason that they burn flags. It's what you're supposed to do when the flag is soiled.

That's certainly a good point, but most flag-burners usually don't treat it as such. It's more an expression of their hatred to a particular policy/politician. I would feel better about flag burning if it were done for the reasons you suggested.

I find it interesting that you used the word 'fealty', a word thats primary definition indicates an obligation from a vassal to their lord, to describe the relationship between a citizen and their country. Especially considering your earlier posts about how people should be proud of the freedoms afforded by the US.

Definition of fealty
Houghton Mifflin dictionary
1a.The fidelity owed by a vassal to his feudal lord.
1b.The oath of such fidelity.
2.Faithfulness; allegiance

I didn't realize I needed to specify which definition of the word I was using. I meant faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, and allegiance in the way that they most closely resemble the same ideal.

Freedom mines.

unfortunately outsourcing has led to the use of Mexican freedom slaves ;)

oh shit! wow, I wanna hear that story!

well the time spent in a cell was due to a number of incidents which gradually built up and was meant to effectively break me and my mutineers1

however what set it off was the lesson we had on good and evil (the class was referred to as moral instruction so you get the idea) which was done in a church study type room by two priests (one CoE one Catholic), now when explicitly asked to define good and evil I had the audacity to suggest that such absolutes are fictitious and used all the arguments I picked up on NS (oddly I also found myself arguing how atheists can be moral and other classics2) to leave the priests with no alternative other than to kick me out and send me straight to my OC (the Catholic Priest also had the authority of a Major so I got in some deep trouble that day)

1) nicknamed because I had accidentally burnt the flag on an uniform with a iron leading it to turn black which was awesome and soon picked up by various individuals
2) I had purchased the God Delusion before I had entered so I had the ammo

yeah I suck with my writing skills

I am 16 years old and I am a junior in high school. Does anyone know if it is mandatory to stand to say the pledge of allegience at public high schools? And do you think it should or shouldn't be?

I was told that a teacher cannot force you to stand and face the flag for the pledge. I assumed that the right to sit and not say the pledge of allegience was protected under the First Ammendment. And so for the past two years, I have always sat during the pledge. It's not because I'm lazy (that seems to be the reason for most of the other kids that don't stand), it is simply against my personal beliefs. I don't believe in nationalism. And quite simply, like most people in the world, I disagree with the direction that the United States is headed in, for a multitude of reasons.

A reason I'm posting this is because an incident occured yesturday at my school. I have gym class 2nd hour, which is when the daily pledge of allegience and the rest of announcements occur. There is a gym teacher at our school, Coach Machado, who is also the head football coach. Now I want you to picture THE most stereotypical football coach you can imagine. Middle-aged, tough, hard-ass, brainless, racist, sexist, homophobic, patriotic, American football coach. If you've ever seen the movie Saving Silverman, picture the football coach from that movie (except not gay!).

A good friend of mine told me that he was once verbally harassed by Coach Machado for not standing for the pledge of allegience. On the first day of the new semester, I saw him actually make a kid stand for the pledge. And on the second day of the new semester, it was my turn. Yesturday, like everyday, I chose not to stand for the pledge of allegience. I was not talking during it, nor was I being disruptive at all. I just simply sat quietly while everyone else stood. After it was over, he pointed at me and told me to come into his office. He then proceed to yell at me for about two minutes. I tried to explain to him that I don't have to stand for the pledge. I wasn't about to just sit there and take it. However he would not even let me get two words in to defend myself. And I wasn't about to start swearing at him, or engage in a shouting match, so I was quiet most of the time.

I don't mean to make a big deal out of this, and act like I'm the victim of some grave injustice. I would just like to start a discussion on this and get some of your opinions. I really hope this doesn't become an everyday incident with Coach Machado for the rest of the year. If it does, what do you think I should do?

This has probably already been answered for you, however no teacher can make you stand, or recite the pledge of allegiance. There was a time when it was mandatory, however, I'm pretty sure that ended in the '60s-'70s.

I didn't stand for religious (rather than political) reasons. There were others who would also refuse to stand, but I think theirs was for political reasons. I never heard a word from anyone on the subject, nor should you have to unless it is out of curiosity.

unfortunately outsourcing has led to the use of Mexican freedom slaves ;)



well the time spent in a cell was due to a number of incidents which gradually built up and was meant to effectively break me and my mutineers1

however what set it off was the lesson we had on good and evil (the class was referred to as moral instruction so you get the idea) which was done in a church study type room by two priests (one CoE one Catholic), now when explicitly asked to define good and evil I had the audacity to suggest that such absolutes are fictitious and used all the arguments I picked up on NS (oddly I also found myself arguing how atheists can be moral and other classics2) to leave the priests with no alternative other than to kick me out and send me straight to my OC (the Catholic Priest also had the authority of a Major so I got in some deep trouble that day)

1) nicknamed because I had accidentally burnt the flag on an uniform with a iron leading it to turn black which was awesome and soon picked up by various individuals
2) I had purchased the God Delusion before I had entered so I had the ammo

yeah I suck with my writing skills

Man, well I got sent to the guidance counselor's office one time for drawing crazy satanic symbols all over my arm during a school assembly. It freaked my biology teacher out, totally worth it.:)

I pledge allegiance to the House of Helmawr,
and to the Hive for which it stands,
one planet under the Emperor,
indivisible,
with hard labor and just laws for all.

Perhaps stop pretending that the US is a utopia would be a start?

I not only didn't pretend the US was a utopia, I made a statement against that. My point was that there is a middle point between "this place isn't worth my 20 seconds of breath and putting my hand over my heart" and "this place is absolutely perfect". Good luck finding anyone anywhere who thinks the US is bordering on flawless, myself included. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I thought the US was paradise.

yeah I suck with my writing skills

Hey, don't you suck with a straw, but at (doing) something?

I not only didn't pretend the US was a utopia, I made a statement against that. My point was that there is a middle point between "this place isn't worth my 20 seconds of breath and putting my hand over my heart" and "this place is absolutely perfect". Good luck finding anyone anywhere who thinks the US is bordering on flawless, myself included. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I thought the US was paradise.

I think the members of congress and the president should stand every morning and pledge their allegiance to me and all the other citizens. They work for us anyway.;)

I've got to head out for the night, but I appreciate the debate/discussion (and anecdotes) from you all. Please don't take my lack of replies as disrespect to you or refusal to answer the post.

To summarize, no the Pledge is not mandatory and it should not be made mandatory. The US has flaws but that doesn't mean it isn't worth taking 30 seconds to put your hand over your heart and pledge allegiance to the worthwhile things it stands for and the principles that people expect it to uphold.

Lol, good show mate. :)

Yeah, I used to say the pledge but would replace "one nation, under g-d" with either the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Ceiling cat. But then I realised regardless I would be making a pledge of allegiance (which is a rather scary commitment of nationalism) so now I just stand.

I think the members of congress and the president should stand every morning and pledge their allegiance to me and all the other citizens. They work for us anyway.;)

I like that idea. It seems they forget their constituents too frequently.

But then I realised regardless I would be making a pledge of allegiance (which is a rather scary commitment of nationalism) so now I just stand.

I never even stood.

I like that idea. It seems they forget their constituents too frequently.

I think they represent their constituents very well, the majority of people seem to be out for themselves so why should our representitives be any different?

The US government killed too many Natives for you to show disrespect to our soldiers who spent lifetimes trying to pull off that genocide.

At least respect the work they did.

for people without a sense of humor/sarcasm detector that was sarcastic.

Now that's a little unfair, sarcastic or not. Our current government is not responsible for this anymore than the current government of Germany is responsible for the Holocaust, or the current government of Russia for Stalin's purges or the Czar's pograms, or any other nation responsible for anything other than what they have done personally.

That said, the sentiment is valid. Patriotism and respect for the sake of patriotism and respect alone is insulting and stupid.

No, you do not have to stand. No one can compel you to stand for anything, except parents and in an environment (military) where you surrender the majority of your rights and school is not one of them.

One federal appeals court (in Lipp v. Morris) even ruled in 1978 that school officials in New Jersey violated the First Amendment when they punished a student for refusing to stand during the Pledge of Allegiance.
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/speech/studentexpression/topic.aspx?topic=pledge

Don't give in. That piece of cloth doesn't deserve respect and you certainly can't respect a cloth by standing. It's blatant idolatry. If you want to respect it, do community service or join the Army. A bunch of words don't mean shit.

I used to sit on and off and finally started sitting as of 2 January so I don't go out of high school like a wuss.

Now that's a little unfair, sarcastic or not. Our current government is not responsible for this anymore than the current government of Germany is responsible for the Holocaust, or the current government of Russia for Stalin's purges or the Czar's pograms, or any other nation responsible for anything other than what they have done personally.

That said, the sentiment is valid. Patriotism and respect for the sake of patriotism and respect alone is insulting and stupid.

Nah, it's not unfair. We're told to do it to respect all soldiers who fought for the country, essentially, not any select group because all soldiers, as you know, fought for freedom.

You don't have to stand. You don't have to pledge. But in my classroom you are required to keep quiet for the fifteen seconds it takes for the recitation over the loudspeaker.

Personally I have nothing against the pledge, and at functions outside of school I recite it when it is being done. In class, cognizant that my position of authority may make some feel they NEED to pledge, I simply stand quietly and still, facing the flag. Many of my students choose to cover their hearts and recite, some simply stand, others sit. The only requirement is that those not participating MUST be quiet.

Take the God part out and the words are fine.

Take the God part out and the words are fine.

Take all the words out and it's fine. It's a load of shit. Pure and simple. It's so American to have some BS attempt at something like that.

Take all the words out and it's fine. It's a load of shit. Pure and simple. It's so American to have some BS attempt at something like that.

Right.... What exactly do you take offense to in it?

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States...." How did we get to be a country except a war? We fought the Revolutionary War and our flag represents us as a separate country. We fought WWI and WWII under the star-spangled banner. The pledge of allegience isn't a verbal consent to enlist. It's a simple promise to show fidelity to the nation. The people that fought to get us a country and the people that keep us from harm fight for what the flag represents.

Don't construe someone's love and respect for a country to mean that they're going to join the army.

Yeah well, funny how I don't need to do that to keep my "nation" together (an outdated idea from the 1800s btw).

A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon. Napoleon Bonaparte.

Right.... What exactly do you take offense to in it?

The blatant statism and nationalism. Both negatives that work towards creating bourgeois societies (to use your own ideas against you) ;) Case in point: France after they rebelled against their monarchy. What did they get?

Well, first there was anarchy, then came nationalism, then there was an empire with, gasp! a new aristocracy.

Brilliant that!

Take out the "under God"... well, isn't heaven, literally, in the Judeo-Chrustian ideaology which was the mindset when the Pledge was originally written, which I think was in the 1930s, above the clouds, so taken in the Pledge's most literal interpreation, America is technically "under God".

Right.... What exactly do you take offense to in it?

The fact that there is a "pledge of allegiance/patriotism". Why should there bee one? It was invented by a fascist.

The blatant statism and nationalism. Both negatives that work towards creating bourgeois societies (to use your own ideas against you) ;) Case in point: France after they rebelled against their monarchy. What did they get?

Well, first there was anarchy, then came nationalism, then there was an empire with, gasp! a new aristocracy.

Brilliant that!
Right, I am just saying you can't really get all that out of a tiny sentence.

Yeah well, funny how I don't need to do that to keep my "nation" together (an outdated idea from the 1800s btw).

Not quite as outdated as you think. Unless you can prove to me East Timor is thriving.

...First time I've ever clicked on the forums. Holy hell do people hate America in here.

No, you can't be forced to stand for the pledge. I actually argued with my science teacher a couple months ago about it... Someone was sitting, had sat for the pledge for 2 months, and he was trying to make them stand up for it. He thought that you legally had to say the pledge, haha.

...First time I've ever clicked on the forums. Holy hell do people hate America in here.
If you make the effort to stay you'll learn what's wrong about your observation.

Believe me, on here things have evolved a lot further than the "you hate America" dichotomy you get in the States sometimes.

...First time I've ever clicked on the forums. Holy hell do people hate America in here.

No, you can't be forced to stand for the pledge. I actually argued with my science teacher a couple months ago about it... Someone was sitting, had sat for the pledge for 2 months, and he was trying to make them stand up for it. He thought that you legally had to say the pledge, haha.

Odd that he would think that. When I took the upper-level education course at my university that covered education law (the course all education majors had to pass to get the degree), it was made clear to us that the students were not required to stand for the pledge.

How old is this teacher?

Well I don't know if its illegal not to,but I always stand and put my hand over my heart. Thats traditional. For the National Anthem you have to be reverent, but putting your hand over your heart insn't the same tradition. You have to be reverent for both really. Sitting might not be considered respectful. Hes proabaly an A-hole and probably over-patriotic, but it isn't "nationilism" to stand for the pledge. Honostly, I'm open minded but when people say that stuff its sort of annoying. Honostly is it so bad to have a little pride in your country. We're not Nazi Germany, so you don't like where America is going, the best thing you can do is be proud in your country because you can change it. Believe that America will bounce back, help your country, don't just resist.

EDIT: Here (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/4/4.html) is something I found through a couple of links in Wiki. It reads--

He might have overreacted I wasn't there,but he is right.

_Should_. Not _has to_. Big difference.
As for my personal opinion, I always find it halfway between hilarious and scary that Americans have to look at their flag and swear allegiance to it EVERY MORNING. I mean, you'd think they were afraid you'd forget it until the next day or something... and surely a nation couldn't have that weak of a spirit, now could it? :)

If you make the effort to stay you'll learn what's wrong about your observation.

Believe me, on here things have evolved a lot further than the "you hate America" dichotomy you get in the States sometimes.

Haha, I'm gonna stick around for awhile. Most people I talk to in real life... don't know a whole lot about politics and things like that. People here actually seem like they know what they're talking about, and that... I might actually have some debates worth remembering. :p

Yeah... I know that it's not the "You hate America, you commie! / You love America, support Bush!" crap we get over here. Still, never hurts to learn more.

How old is this teacher?

In his 40's... Kinda sad. Only term I have him, thankfully.

That's pretty great that you cannot imagine pledging allegiance to the country you live and which provides the freedoms you enjoy.

Tried living in Britain lately? And.. nobody provides freedom. However if you're willing to stand up and raise a middle finger to your would-be oppressors en-masse, you may just get to keep your freedom. Know what I mean?


The Pledge of Allegiance is to the United States, not Bush or Congress or the military or the founding fathers. It's not a religion or propaganda. It's a simple commitment to the country in which you live. I can't imagine direspecting the millions of men and women that fought and died for this country by refusing to show any spirit for the flag. What a tremendous insult.

Flags tend to desecrate themselves every time the ruling government starts to drop bombs.

it may be a school rule that you have to stand, but it isn't here, the JW's refuse to stand and the school can't make them.

Talk to your principal about it, explain that you don't mind being quiet and respectful of other's choices, but that you don't choose to participate.

That is the legal threshold right there. You must be quiet, the end. It should be easy, but then you get students who just have to be dicks and try to talk right through it.

Gustill you do realize right that nations mean nothing, take out minor language and cultural barriers and humanity is all essentially the same, the only thing that keeps a state going is the monopoly on organized violence that the state has within it's own territory, and to maintain borders. I find it disgusting the amount of people who indulge in this kind of sectarianism.

Language and cultural difference make a huge difference. Could you imagine Americans or Europeans living under Islamic law or abiding by Chinese customs? Culture is not just something one chooses to discard.

Gustill you do realize right that nations mean nothing, take out minor language and cultural barriers and humanity is all essentially the same, the only thing that keeps a state going is the monopoly on organized violence that the state has within it's own territory, and to maintain borders. I find it disgusting the amount of people who indulge in this kind of sectarianism.

Especially in the modern world where we can talk to people on the other side of the world instantly, send them money instantly, send them whatever in a few days, and the whole global economy.

It actually is religion. It contains the words "under God," which caused the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (rightly, in my view) to rule that reciting it in schools (whether or not students were forced to recite it or stand for it) is unconstitutional.

Do you find it insulting when atheists (I am one), agnostics and polytheists do not say the pledge, when you have insulted them by excluding them through inserting the words "under God" into it.

Sorry it took me so long to reply again. I appreciate everyone's concern.

I'm definitely not going to give in and stand. He actually gave me more reason to not stand, simply to show to him that I won't be intimidated by him. If this continues, guess the best thing to do would be to report him. The sad truth, however, is that I know my parents would not support me at all. I didn't even tell them that this happened. My dad would probably also yell at me for not standing for the pledge.

Here's an idea. If he approaches me and tells me to stand, I'll just say "alright fine!"

Stand up, face the flag, and say "Sieg Heil!" and give it the old Nazi salute! haha

ghod only knows what right wing loonies will come up with next.

what i don't understand is how anyone can be expected to remain loyal to anything they are required to pretend to be.

haven't other nations and empires learned that the hard way, or is this one of those "they'll never learn" kinds of things?

(presumably the intent is brainwashing by rote. brainwashing there is such a thing of, but it don't exactly work that way, or at least not most of the time.
again witness the experiences of other nations and empires of the past.)

=^^=
.../\...

I can't imagine direspecting the millions of men and women that fought and died for this country by refusing to show any spirit for the flag. What a tremendous insult.
I can't imagine direspecting the millions of men and women that fought and died for this country by using their sacrifice to try to guilt someone in to doing something they don't believe in.

WWII was to stop the fascists. Forcing someone to say "My country is brilliant" seems to be a bit fascist. I think most of the millions who have died would disagree with his decision not to say the pledge, but would accept his right not to say it. Freedom was what most of them were fighting for. I think nearly all of them would be more insulted by your cynical use of their sacrifice as a debating device, than him not standing.

pledge of allegiance? no way. a country does not own its people.

First off you don't have to respect anything you don't want to. It seems I have this discussion over and over again. YOU OWN YOUR BODY. Therefore you also own your life-and all the subsequent things that entails.

I wouldn't say the [ledge for many of the same reasons you wouldn't either. But I also wouldn't say the pledge because I'm atheist.

You are absolutely correct in doing what you have done and I hope since your posting the issue has been resolved in the favor of you and our rights to free speech.

If you want more info just google 'self ownership' or go here:
http://www.isil.org

Gustill you do realize right that nations mean nothing, take out minor language and cultural barriers and humanity is all essentially the same, the only thing that keeps a state going is the monopoly on organized violence that the state has within it's own territory, and to maintain borders. I find it disgusting the amount of people who indulge in this kind of sectarianism.

Uh...language and culture aren't exactly "small" barriers.

I am 16 years old and I am a junior in high school. Does anyone know if it is mandatory to stand to say the pledge of allegience at public high schools? And do you think it should or shouldn't be?

I was told that a teacher cannot force you to stand and face the flag for the pledge. I assumed that the right to sit and not say the pledge of allegience was protected under the First Ammendment. And so for the past two years, I have always sat during the pledge. It's not because I'm lazy (that seems to be the reason for most of the other kids that don't stand), it is simply against my personal beliefs. I don't believe in nationalism. And quite simply, like most people in the world, I disagree with the direction that the United States is headed in, for a multitude of reasons.

A reason I'm posting this is because an incident occured yesturday at my school. I have gym class 2nd hour, which is when the daily pledge of allegience and the rest of announcements occur. There is a gym teacher at our school, Coach Machado, who is also the head football coach. Now I want you to picture THE most stereotypical football coach you can imagine. Middle-aged, tough, hard-ass, brainless, racist, sexist, homophobic, patriotic, American football coach. If you've ever seen the movie Saving Silverman, picture the football coach from that movie (except not gay!).

A good friend of mine told me that he was once verbally harassed by Coach Machado for not standing for the pledge of allegience. On the first day of the new semester, I saw him actually make a kid stand for the pledge. And on the second day of the new semester, it was my turn. Yesturday, like everyday, I chose not to stand for the pledge of allegience. I was not talking during it, nor was I being disruptive at all. I just simply sat quietly while everyone else stood. After it was over, he pointed at me and told me to come into his office. He then proceed to yell at me for about two minutes. I tried to explain to him that I don't have to stand for the pledge. I wasn't about to just sit there and take it. However he would not even let me get two words in to defend myself. And I wasn't about to start swearing at him, or engage in a shouting match, so I was quiet most of the time.

I don't mean to make a big deal out of this, and act like I'm the victim of some grave injustice. I would just like to start a discussion on this and get some of your opinions. I really hope this doesn't become an everyday incident with Coach Machado for the rest of the year. If it does, what do you think I should do?

When I found out that Americans did this in schools I was really shocked. Looking back, I don't know why. Your country is dangerously nationalistic. I feel sorry for you. Stick to your guns kiddo.

Whether the Pledge is mandatory or not, it should be a local, not national, decision. There should be exceptions for people whose religion contradicts it. Teachers and coaches should not harass students for not participating.

Semi-related fact:
The pope has an email address (benedictxvi@vatican.va)

:eek:

*signs pope up for several gay-porn mailing lists*

Take out the "under God"... well, isn't heaven, literally, in the Judeo-Chrustian ideaology which was the mindset when the Pledge was originally written, which I think was in the 1930s, above the clouds, so taken in the Pledge's most literal interpreation, America is technically "under God".

"under God" was added in the 1950s to distinguish America from the godless hordes of communism.

The fact that there is a "pledge of allegiance/patriotism". Why should there bee one? It was invented by a fascist.

Oh, DO know your facts... it does make you look silly when you say things like this.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

Gustill you do realize right that nations mean nothing, take out minor language and cultural barriers and humanity is all essentially the same, the only thing that keeps a state going is the monopoly on organized violence that the state has within it's own territory, and to maintain borders. I find it disgusting the amount of people who indulge in this kind of sectarianism.

Riiiiight.

Everyone in your world is identical, with identical ideologies, and all live in perfect harmony?

Have I got a museum for you: http://www.creationmuseum.org/

A mod quadruple posting, now I've seen everything.
*takes photo*

It actually is religion. It contains the words "under God," which caused the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (rightly, in my view) to rule that reciting it in schools (whether or not students were forced to recite it or stand for it) is unconstitutional.

Obviously, it is not unconstitutional to recite it. It is unconstitutional to force others to recite it. It is not religion.

The two words were added in the 1950s and may be omitted by those who choose to recite, in the same manner that those testifying in court may substitute "I affirm" in place of swearing on a bible. An affirmation in and of itself is not 'religion'.

If it is religion, in which religious text does the Pledge of Allegiance appear? The Boy Scout's Manual?

Do you find it insulting when atheists (I am one), agnostics and polytheists do not say the pledge, when you have insulted them by excluding them through inserting the words "under God" into it.

I find it insulting when they decide to talk through it or announce loudly, "I'm not standing or saying this!" The same way that people who wish to pray when they are in public are just as rude when they decide to pray loudly at people to the annoyance of the disinterested and non-religious, or tell them they are damned because they don't pray, believe in God, or live life the way the speaker thinks they ought.


Here's an idea. If he approaches me and tells me to stand, I'll just say "alright fine!"

Stand up, face the flag, and say "Sieg Heil!" and give it the old Nazi salute! haha

And then that changes you from someone who is objecting on philosophical grounds, to someone who is being an asshole.

A mod quadruple posting, now I've seen everything.
*takes photo*

A quadruple post is when you have four identical posts. There were four posts, TWO of which were identical. That has been corrected. ;)

I pledge allegiance to the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation, under GOD, indivisible, with LIBERTY and JUSTICE for ALL.

I hereby declare my eternal hatred for all who seek to take my inherent, unalienable, God-given RIGHTS to life, liberty, and property. ALL enemies, foreign and domestic, who seek to take them away will face my wrath.

My loyalties ate as follows:

1. God
2. Family
and in DISTANT third, Country.

If I am a nationalist, it is only because I vehemently oppose any one-world government. I know the ideals of true liberty for all are a scary proposition. If you are not ready for the rewards and risks of true free speech, the right to keep and bear arms, the right to own property and engage in trade without government interference, etc., then the original concepts of the Founding Fathers is not for you. I favor a diverse range of governments so people can choose the level of liberty they feel comfortable with having.

I oppose the spreading of "democracy" by the sword as strongly as I oppose the descent into fascism that my countty has experienced over the past century. I believe the duty of the united Stated is to be the gentleman in a conflict: Let the other fellow throw the first punch and start the fight. Then mop the floor with his face if need be.

I know this makes me out to be some sort of "radical libertarian nut-job," but I want the government of the Constitution back. I will fight the "Real ID Act," the "North American Union" and any other act that either takes liberty away or surrenders our national sovereignty.

The pledge of allegiance I made at the start of this epistle is the version I would give. A flag is a piece of cloth to be waved in order to disguise intentions. The Constitution is a written contract between the People and the Government. Any violation of the contract could be construed as a breach on the part of the government that releases the people from any obligations under the contract. This is how important the Constitution should be to both the governors and the governed. The pledge can only be words without this meaning.

Sorry it took me so long to reply again. I appreciate everyone's concern.

I'm definitely not going to give in and stand. He actually gave me more reason to not stand, simply to show to him that I won't be intimidated by him. If this continues, guess the best thing to do would be to report him. The sad truth, however, is that I know my parents would not support me at all. I didn't even tell them that this happened. My dad would probably also yell at me for not standing for the pledge.

Here's an idea. If he approaches me and tells me to stand, I'll just say "alright fine!"

Stand up, face the flag, and say "Sieg Heil!" and give it the old Nazi salute! haha

That'll just undermine your position.

Simply refuse to say the pledge if you don't want to and talk to the principal if your teacher violates the law by trying to make you. If the principal isn't willing to do anything about it, consider contacting the ACLU: all but the most stubborn and pig-headed of schools will give in if they receive a letter from a lawyer explaining their position and threatening legal action if they fail to comply with the law.

Oh, and be grateful you're not living in the UK where we still have teacher-enforced prayer...

I pledge allegiance to the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation, under GOD, indivisible, with LIBERTY and JUSTICE for ALL.

I hereby declare my eternal hatred for all who seek to take my inherent, unalienable, God-given RIGHTS to life, liberty, and property. ALL enemies, foreign and domestic, who seek to take them away will face my wrath.

:rolleyes:

I suppose the appropriate interjection at this point would be the neverendingly witty and eloquent OO-RAH!!!

Incidentally, I do not recite the pledge of allegiance for one reason and one reason only. I have the freedom to not do so. I see not exercising that freedom to be a graver insult to those who died for it than exercising said freedom.

:rolleyes:

I suppose the appropriate interjection at this point would be the neverendingly witty and eloquent OO-RAH!!!

ORLY?

I saw the fully capitalized "GOD" and immediately assumed the rest of his post was "Jesus Jesus Jesus God God Jesus Jesus Jesus."

Which I assume is some sort of fundie Morse Code for "I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about."

I do not stand up during the Pledge at my school either.

:rolleyes:

I suppose the appropriate interjection at this point would be the neverendingly witty and eloquent OO-RAH!!!

Semper Fi. Lets go put all these heinous recruits up on the quarterdeck. :sniper::mp5:

If you can't get your ass up for the minute it takes to say the Pledge of Allegiance then pack your bags. The reason you even have the CHOICE to stand or sit is from the hard work of those who have loyally served the country. Stand, say the words, and show them the respect they have earned. Yes, you have the choice to stand or sit for this, and that's what Marines, Soldiers, Sailor, Airmen, and the rest of the armed services fought so hard to bring you. But what do you prove by sitting? What about nationalism don't you believe in? That the country is just a landmass between two coasts or imaginary lines? What about that country's culture? It's history? The people? Stand up and pay your due respect to your country, what it has done, who lives in it, and those who have, are, and will swear to protected it. The government may have made some bad choices, and in recent years people give a lot of flak to America for it's recent en devours, but not everything will always be viewed as correct. Someone wins, someone loses, and people always get angry in between. Nevertheless you should stand by your country, especially if you are American, for all the freedoms it has held for it's citizens.

Corporal Harland, United States Marine Corps.

1- Your rights and freedoms are something you're BORN with. A country may take them away, but shouldn't, and cannot give them as one's rights and freedoms are NOT the country's to give.

2- What IS a country?

Oh, DO know your facts... it does make you look silly when you say things like this.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm
Christian socialism is the same as fascism.

2- What IS a country? see your first point. I think you know what a country is.

1- Your rights and freedoms are something you're BORN with. A country may take them away, but shouldn't, and cannot give them as one's rights and freedoms are NOT the country's to give.
;)

:p

see your first point. I think you know what a country is.


;)

:p

You know what I meant. :p

What defines a country? Does pi become any less or more than 3.14... when one crosses the border that delimits the imaginary line between the entity called "United States of America" and the one called "Mexico"? Do the laws of nature change? Are people from either country more or less worthy?

I stopped believing in this stupid concept when I was nine.

What defines a country?
it depends on who you ask.
To some,

a Country is the same as a Nation. so yes, the American Indian Nation can be also called the Country of the American Indians.

A Country is a Political (Man Made) boundary, not a Geographical (Nature Made) one.

a Country can be an extremely large gathering of people who share similar political and social beliefs.

a country is the social form of Government with powers to govern all within their boundaries.

and to some, a Country is where you go to get away from the 'City'. :p

so there are many definitions of 'country'

Does pi become any less or more than 3.14... nope. if William wants to be called Bill, does that mean he becomes a different person?
when one crosses the border that delimits the imaginary line between the entity called "United States of America" and the one called "Mexico", Do the laws of nature change?
Laws of Nature? no.
Political Laws? yes.
Social Laws? somewhat.

Are people from either country more or less worthy?
define worth.

They live their lives according to their customs, laws, and traditions, we live ours according to ours. we may think our way of life is better, but then again, they can think that their way is better also.

I honestly don't know...?

At my school I've never seen anyone that doesn't say the pledge, but I do agree that the country is not in great shape right now.

I think it should be your choice. Personally, I would, but if you feel differently I respect that.

:rolleyes:

I suppose the appropriate interjection at this point would be the neverendingly witty and eloquent OO-RAH!!!

Funny!:p
That reminds me of Call of duty 4 where they say that all the time, it's hilarious when drunk and playing it, mind you the after effects were even funnier, when encouraged by my virtual comrades in arms i went about the city streets shouting "BREACH AND CLEAR",and "THREE O'CLOCK SNIPER FIND COVER!", and "WHERE'S MY FIRE SUPPORT?!". no joke i actually did that, much to the amusement of my friends, and i got to roll about in the dirt:D.

Semper Fi. Lets go put all these heinous recruits up on the quarterdeck. :sniper::mp5:

If you can't get your ass up for the minute it takes to say the Pledge of Allegiance then pack your bags. The reason you even have the CHOICE to stand or sit is from the hard work of those who have loyally served the country. Stand, say the words, and show them the respect they have earned. Yes, you have the choice to stand or sit for this, and that's what Marines, Soldiers, Sailor, Airmen, and the rest of the armed services fought so hard to bring you. But what do you prove by sitting? What about nationalism don't you believe in? That the country is just a landmass between two coasts or imaginary lines? What about that country's culture? It's history? The people? Stand up and pay your due respect to your country, what it has done, who lives in it, and those who have, are, and will swear to protected it. The government may have made some bad choices, and in recent years people give a lot of flak to America for it's recent en devours, but not everything will always be viewed as correct. Someone wins, someone loses, and people always get angry in between. Nevertheless you should stand by your country, especially if you are American, for all the freedoms it has held for it's citizens.

Corporal Harland, United States Marine Corps.

Do you not understand what you're even saying here?
Stand or we'll shoot you?
What a lovely legacy of freedom.

Christian socialism is the same as fascism.

No, it's not. It has absolutely nothing to do with fascism. Go buy a dictionary, and come back once you've learned what the words you use mean.

Semper Fi. Lets go put all these heinous recruits up on the quarterdeck. :sniper::mp5:

If you can't get your ass up for the minute it takes to say the Pledge of Allegiance then pack your bags. The reason you even have the CHOICE to stand or sit is from the hard work of those who have loyally served the country. Stand, say the words, and show them the respect they have earned. Yes, you have the choice to stand or sit for this, and that's what Marines, Soldiers, Sailor, Airmen, and the rest of the armed services fought so hard to bring you. But what do you prove by sitting? What about nationalism don't you believe in? That the country is just a landmass between two coasts or imaginary lines? What about that country's culture? It's history? The people? Stand up and pay your due respect to your country, what it has done, who lives in it, and those who have, are, and will swear to protected it. The government may have made some bad choices, and in recent years people give a lot of flak to America for it's recent en devours, but not everything will always be viewed as correct. Someone wins, someone loses, and people always get angry in between. Nevertheless you should stand by your country, especially if you are American, for all the freedoms it has held for it's citizens.

Corporal Harland, United States Marine Corps.

Translation: "We fought for your freedoms, so you better damn not use them."

Or use your freedom and choose the option that shows respect?

I think it should be your choice. Personally, I would, but if you feel differently I respect that.


That looks like the best thing someone has said so far here. No need for any long winded lectures. It's your right to stand or sit, and you should respect other peoples choices :)

What I'm saying is I find it disrespectful when people wont at least stand up for the pledge of allegiance.

How so?
Who is insulted by someone else not standing up at a certain time and obey your country?
I think it's perfectly normal behaviour not to owe allegiance to a country you live in.

Do you not understand what you're even saying here?
Stand or we'll shoot you?
What a lovely legacy of freedom.

What I'm saying is I find it disrespectful when people wont at least stand up for the pledge of allegiance.

Or use your freedom and choose the option that shows respect?

And if you don't choose it, you don't belong in the country, according to you. It's damn near a Hobson's Choice.

When I found out that Americans did this in schools I was really shocked. Looking back, I don't know why. Your country is dangerously nationalistic. I feel sorry for you. Stick to your guns kiddo.
When it first became a common custom, in the 1930's, it was pointed out by critics that the only other country in the world to make its schoolchildren start their days with a pledge of allegiance was the Empire of Japan.

Semper Fi. Lets go put all these heinous recruits up on the quarterdeck. :sniper::mp5:

If you can't get your ass up for the minute it takes to say the Pledge of Allegiance then pack your bags. The reason you even have the CHOICE to stand or sit is from the hard work of those who have loyally served the country. Stand, say the words, and show them the respect they have earned. Yes, you have the choice to stand or sit for this, and that's what Marines, Soldiers, Sailor, Airmen, and the rest of the armed services fought so hard to bring you. But what do you prove by sitting? What about nationalism don't you believe in? That the country is just a landmass between two coasts or imaginary lines? What about that country's culture? It's history? The people? Stand up and pay your due respect to your country, what it has done, who lives in it, and those who have, are, and will swear to protected it. The government may have made some bad choices, and in recent years people give a lot of flak to America for it's recent en devours, but not everything will always be viewed as correct. Someone wins, someone loses, and people always get angry in between. Nevertheless you should stand by your country, especially if you are American, for all the freedoms it has held for it's citizens.

Corporal Harland, United States Marine Corps.

GTFO You arrogant prick. Just because you served in the Army doesn't mean you have a right to tell people what patriotism is or isn't. I hate when soldiers think they're above everyone else like they deserve special treatment, most of the time when they fought in a war that was not in defense of this country.

The Pledge is not patriotism or nationalism, it's fascism.

Incidentally, I do not recite the pledge of allegiance for one reason and one reason only. I have the freedom to not do so. I see not exercising that freedom to be a graver insult to those who died for it than exercising said freedom.
I don't think that makes much sense. Isn't that just being contrary for its own sake, because you can?

I say the pledge, but don't think those that died to protect my freedom to not say it care either way. They are in a state beyond flags, republics, or even liberty.

GTFO You arrogant prick. Just because you served in the Army doesn't mean you have a right to tell people what patriotism is or isn't. I hate when soldiers think they're above everyone else like they deserve special treatment, most of the time when they fought in a war that was not in defense of this country.

The Pledge is not patriotism or nationalism, it's fascism.

calm down Sel, it's not worth risking High Blood Pressure. :p

The Pledge is not Patriotism, or Nationalism, and it's also NOT Fascism. All that is dependant on the people saying/not saying the pledge and whether or not they are forced to do so, or are forcing others to do so.

Its patrotism ( disgusting) and nationlism (vile) which are both used to controal idiots and even some clever people belive in them due to a lifetime of brainwashing. These also can easily turn into facism so there forth i recomend you take these steps.

1.Read books by Socailsts and communists ( not stalin plox hes a ****)
2. Join a far left party
3. Turn up and use logic
4. Laugh at him as he is unable to defend his fucked up reasoning.

I don't think that makes much sense. Isn't that just being contrary for its own sake, because you can?

Someone has to do it. It might as well be me, since I don't hold much allegiance to the country anyways.

The Pledge is not patriotism or nationalism, it's fascism.

Fascism is the fusion of the corporation and the state. I fail to see how the pledge meets that qualification.

GTFO You arrogant prick. Just because you served in the Army....

He is or was in the Marines. You DO understand, I hope, that they are different, in the same way that Bellamy and fascism are different?

Fascism is the fusion of the corporation and the state. I fail to see how the pledge meets that qualification.

Because calling it fascism has a large degree of truthiness in it. Not actual TRUTH mind you....

Semper Fi. Lets go put all these heinous recruits up on the quarterdeck. :sniper::mp5:

If you can't get your ass up for the minute it takes to say the Pledge of Allegiance then pack your bags. The reason you even have the CHOICE to stand or sit is from the hard work of those who have loyally served the country. Stand, say the words, and show them the respect they have earned. Yes, you have the choice to stand or sit for this, and that's what Marines, Soldiers, Sailor, Airmen, and the rest of the armed services fought so hard to bring you. But what do you prove by sitting? What about nationalism don't you believe in? That the country is just a landmass between two coasts or imaginary lines? What about that country's culture? It's history? The people? Stand up and pay your due respect to your country, what it has done, who lives in it, and those who have, are, and will swear to protected it. The government may have made some bad choices, and in recent years people give a lot of flak to America for it's recent en devours, but not everything will always be viewed as correct. Someone wins, someone loses, and people always get angry in between. Nevertheless you should stand by your country, especially if you are American, for all the freedoms it has held for it's citizens.

Corporal Harland, United States Marine Corps.

Relax Har-land

GTFO You arrogant prick. Just because you served in the Army doesn't mean you have a right to tell people what patriotism is or isn't. I hate when soldiers think they're above everyone else like they deserve special treatment, most of the time when they fought in a war that was not in defense of this country.

The Pledge is not patriotism or nationalism, it's fascism.

Learn how to read Sel Appa, he was/is a Marine, thusly not in the army.



Kat beat me to it :(

I know this kind of brings up a whole different discussion of the pledge but I believe the phrase "under God" makes the entire pledge religiously biased and therefore this kind of religious intolerance should not be allowed to influence our schools. If someone is atheist than how does that make them feel, that their kids are being made to say something that undermines their whole repigious upbringing, even if it shows national solidarity?

Last time I checked, the word army can describe any and all parts of the Armed Forces. It's just there needs to be a legal name for each part and one of them gets to be officially called the army.

Fail

calm down Sel, it's not worth risking High Blood Pressure. :p

The Pledge is not Patriotism, or Nationalism, and it's also NOT Fascism. All that is dependant on the people saying/not saying the pledge and whether or not they are forced to do so, or are forcing others to do so.
It is fascism. It promotes blind obedience to the State.


He is or was in the Marines. You DO understand, I hope, that they are different, in the same way that Bellamy and fascism are different?

Learn how to read Sel Appa, he was/is a Marine, thusly not in the army.



Kat beat me to it :(

Last time I checked, the word army can describe any and all parts of the Armed Forces. It's just there needs to be a legal name for each part and one of them gets to be officially called the army.

It is fascism. It promotes blind obedience to the State.
no it doesn't.

Allegence =|= blind obedience.

Edit: forgot the word "blind"

Back to utopia. There is nowhere in the world you can find absolute liberty and justice for all......
Then you should see about getting that pledge of yours edited. After all, what's the point in having people recite an undisputed lie?
:eek:

*signs pope up for several gay-porn mailing lists*

HIVEMIND.

It is fascism. It promotes blind obedience to the State.
That's not fascism.

Last time I checked, the word army can describe any and all parts of the Armed Forces. It's just there needs to be a legal name for each part and one of them gets to be officially called the army.
You're dead wrong on that.

Forced allegiance does not sound the kind of thing that meshes well with the freedom US citizens like to boast about.

I'm going to be forced to ask you guys for some consistency here.

That's not fascism.
Okay, to clear this up,

fascism

Etymology:
Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date:
1921

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
Assuming for the minute the roles of President and "dictatorial leader" are interchangeable, does the pledge suggest the first definition there? It certainly exalts nation above the individual and it includes the notion of a centralised government ("One Nation Indivisible", anyone?), and the attitude people take towards those who don't say it does in many cases extend to "forcible Suppression of opposition".

The remaining question is: does "the Republic" include "economic and social regimentation"? Increasingly so for Social, perhaps, but I wouldn't say economic. Suggest for one second that business should be strictly regulated and these regulations enforced and people will go through the roof, accusing you of socialism (entirely fairly in my case, admittedly).

So it falls short of Fascism in the end. Barely. But a Fascist state could certainly get away with saying the Pledge as it is now without breaking ideology.

I know from personal experience that students have the right to decline to say the Pledge. I never said it. I don't support what it represents and I felt it would be disrespectful of me to say it if it were a lie, so I simply sat quietly during the Pledge in the mornings.

I know this kind of brings up a whole different discussion of the pledge but I believe the phrase "under God" makes the entire pledge religiously biased and therefore this kind of religious intolerance should not be allowed to influence our schools. If someone is atheist than how does that make them feel, that their kids are being made to say something that undermines their whole repigious upbringing, even if it shows national solidarity?
Isn't that the pits? The original Pledge didn't have the divisive crap about God in it, but during the Cold War our government decided that we needed to show off the Christian credentials of our nation in order to put the godless Communists in their place.

Fascism is the fusion of the corporation and the state. I fail to see how the pledge meets that qualification.

What about companies who sell those flags.....

What about companies who sell those flags.....

That... that's not a fusion of corporation and state. I can't even begin to figure out how someone could interpret it as a fusion of corporation and state.

That... that's not a fusion of corporation and state. I can't even begin to figure out how someone could interpret it as a fusion of corporation and state.

But I did got u thinking, didn't I..... muahahaha:rolleyes:

That... that's not a fusion of corporation and state. I can't even begin to figure out how someone could interpret it as a fusion of corporation and state.

It involves lots of hallucinogens and a tie-dye shirt.

GTFO You arrogant prick. Just because you served in the Army doesn't mean you have a right to tell people what patriotism is or isn't. I hate when soldiers think they're above everyone else like they deserve special treatment, most of the time when they fought in a war that was not in defense of this country.

The Pledge is not patriotism or nationalism, it's fascism.

I'm currently serving in the Marine Corps. Not the army. And you're right, I don't have a right to tell people whats what. Just sharing my opinion.

I said it in elementary school. Too young to properly consider it.

My high school didn't require it to be said.

Now, I wouldn't say it even if I had the option. Not that I object to it, but my own allegiance to the United States is weakening. I may immigrate to Israel after college.

Anyway, if someone tried to force me to say it, I'd call them a fascist un-American prick. I'd say, "If George Washington were here right now, he'd beat you to a pulp."

Fascism is the fusion of the corporation and the state. I fail to see how the pledge meets that qualification.

Your definition is a little off, I assume the 'corporation' bit comes from Mussolini and Gentile, but you have to remember that when they referred to the 'corporativist' system they did not mean what we call today a 'corporation', they referred specifically to the idea that all interests could be merged, classes, owners, workers etc etc could all be taken into the sphere of the state. Corporativism is understood more as national syndicalism.

I'm currently serving in the Marine Corps. Not the army. And you're right, I don't have a right to tell people whats what. Just sharing my opinion.

The Marine Corps is at least colloquially part of "the army" as I stated earlier. And you were giving more of an order than an opinion.

I'm currently serving in the Marine Corps. Not the army. And you're right, I don't have a right to tell people whats what. Just sharing my opinion.

whats with all the marines on the Internet are these people real :confused:

edit: er Corporal Harland you say? (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Corporal_Harland)

whats with all the marines on the Internet are these people real :confused:

edit: er Corporal Harland you say? (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Corporal_Harland)

Nice.

The Marine Corps is at least colloquially part of "the army" as I stated earlier. And you were giving more of an order than an opinion.

I have never heard of the Marines being referred to as part of the army. It sounds like you had a slip of the tongue (finger?) and are trying to cover it up, which is really unnecessary.
It appears that his facade as been uncovered anyway, so don't worry about it.

I have never heard of the Marines being referred to as part of the army. It sounds like you had a slip of the tongue (finger?) and are trying to cover it up, which is really unnecessary.
It appears that his facade as been uncovered anyway, so don't worry about it.

a large body of persons trained and armed for war.
kthxbye

If you can't get your ass up for the minute it takes to say the Pledge of Allegiance then pack your bags. The reason you even have the CHOICE to stand or sit is from the hard work of those who have loyally served the country. Stand, say the words, and show them the respect they have earned. Yes, you have the choice to stand or sit for this, and that's what Marines, Soldiers, Sailor, Airmen, and the rest of the armed services fought so hard to bring you. But what do you prove by sitting? What about nationalism don't you believe in? That the country is just a landmass between two coasts or imaginary lines? What about that country's culture? It's history? The people? Stand up and pay your due respect to your country, what it has done, who lives in it, and those who have, are, and will swear to protected it. The government may have made some bad choices, and in recent years people give a lot of flak to America for it's recent en devours, but not everything will always be viewed as correct. Someone wins, someone loses, and people always get angry in between. Nevertheless you should stand by your country, especially if you are American, for all the freedoms it has held for it's citizens.

hmm, interesting outlook. In order to honor the freedoms of america you will STAND UP AND DO WHAT YOU ARE FUCKING TOLD AND DON'T YOU DARE DECIDE OTHERWISE!

Interesting. Stupid, but interesting.

You should stand for it even if you don't recite the pledge. Our flag is representative of all those that have gone before you and have given their lives so that you have the freedoms you have today. It isn't about whether you agree with politics, it is about where we have been.

I find it genuinely sad that you can't appreciate something so profound as the meaning it has.

1. the military forces of a nation, exclusive of the navy and in some countries the air force.

The Marines, while they are their own separate branch, answer to the Navy.

Regardless, they are still part of the army of the US. The legal name is one thing, but that does not matter. In fact, the Marines are a land force and could be said to be an army in and of itself.

kthxbye

1. the military forces of a nation, exclusive of the navy and in some countries the air force.

The Marines, while they are their own separate branch, answer to the Navy.

hmm, interesting outlook. In order to honor the freedoms of america you will STAND UP AND DO WHAT YOU ARE FUCKING TOLD AND DON'T YOU DARE DECIDE OTHERWISE!

Interesting. Stupid, but interesting.

They're arguing more about how they should stand, not whether they can choose to not stand.

I agree, actually. But I'm nearly as "DO IT OR YOU HATE AMERICA!" as some people are.

Regardless, they are still part of the army of the US. The legal name is one thing, but that does not matter. In fact, the Marines are a land force and could be said to be an army in and of itself.

... Except they're not. They're part of the Navy, which is separate from the Army.

Why is that hard for you to grasp? Definitions of words change over time.

The whole Nazi slaute thing was a joke. Of course it would undermind my position, and I would never do that!

I'm sorry there's been no updates on the situation. We've been getting alot of snow and school was cancelled on Friday (benifits of living in Wisconsin :D)

Did someone mention that there is teacher enforced prayer in the UK?

I'm sorry there's been no updates on the situation. We've been getting alot of snow and school was cancelled on Friday (benifits of living in Wisconsin :D)

:mad: I hate you. Most we got was a 2 hour delay this week.

The whole Nazi slaute thing was a joke.
Not entirely. The first Pledge ceremonies involved the stiff-arm salute (you held your hand on your heart, and at the syllable "I pledge All-LEEJ-ance" you thrust it out and up). People stopped saluting the US flag that way during WWII for obvious reasons.

The Marine Corps is at least colloquially part of "the army" as I stated earlier.


....Right. That's why they have their own uniforms, their own manuals, their own training, their own mascot, their own song and hey, their own name.

Really now.

That's like me saying that Survivor is the same thing as Ugly Betty. They're both TV shows, right?

Perhaps you're confusing "the army" with "the armed forces"?

kthxbye

So the Navy is really part of the Army? Really and truly?
And the Air Force, is it part of the Army? Really and truly?
I suppose the Coast Guard is also part of the Army.
And the Merchant Marines... they're part of the Army, too.

ORLY?

I saw the fully capitalized "GOD" and immediately assumed the rest of his post was "Jesus Jesus Jesus God God Jesus Jesus Jesus."

Which I assume is some sort of fundie Morse Code for "I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about."

I know this kind of brings up a whole different discussion of the pledge but I believe the phrase "under God" makes the entire pledge religiously biased and therefore this kind of religious intolerance should not be allowed to influence our schools. If someone is atheist than how does that make them feel, that their kids are being made to say something that undermines their whole repigious upbringing, even if it shows national solidarity?


I'm a traditionalist. I'm a Christian. I'm not gonna beat you over the head with a Bible, and I'm not gonna force you to say those two words, or any of them, if you don't want to. Deus: If you want to be rude, go ahead. If you wish to assume religion equates to stupidity, go ahead. It just makes you look exactly like your own stereotypical caricature of the religious.

Please read the entire post and decide whether my statements are based on sound reasoning. My premise was that Country was not my first loyalty. Religion, family, and the Constitution are my priorities. If this country continues to abandon the Constitution, make laws abridging my right to practice my religion, or makes laws that harm my family, I will disavow any ties with my country. There are lines they cannot cross.

The pledge of allegiance is to the symbol of a man-made society that is crumbling. To that I cannot pledge allegiance because it conflicts with higher allegiances. A pledge to the written CONSTITUTON is a more patriotic statement because it is a pledge to the IDEALS of the founding fathers. Even forcing others to pledge to that, however, would be a violation of the very principles I hold dear.

Lord Tothe, religion is man-made too so ultimately it's fallible also, anyone who can't cope with reality and material conditions without resorting to such utter nonsense clearly is destined for a life of being manipulated by any huckstering idea.

Until recently, I had not said the pledge of allegiance since I was about 9 (now 25). Then I became a teacher. It's pretty weird.

It is not mandatory to say the pledge in public schools, and I don't make my kids do it. But I DO ask them to stand quietly while others say it, and not play around or talk. I feel like that's respectful to the class as a whole. I don't believe in swearing my allegiance to an object (let alone 'under god'), but it's my job to teach it, so I do, and I ask kids to simply respect others.

Did someone mention that there is teacher enforced prayer in the UK?

Yep.

About one in three state schools in the UK are run by religious organisations, and every school is obliged by law to hold a daily act of 'collective worship' (i.e. assembly). Sixth Formers can opt out, but younger students (5-16) can only do so with parental permission, and since assemblies are also used to pass out important news and information it's rarely practical to do so. In one of my schools we also started and ended the day with a teacher led prayer (it was a Church of England school, but state-funded).

I far prefer Europe to America, but I do envy the US constitution.

I far prefer Europe to America, but I do envy the US constitution.

Feel free to borrow it. We're not using it right now.

About one in three state schools in the UK are run by religious organisations, and every school is obliged by law to hold a daily act of 'collective worship' (i.e. assembly). Sixth Formers can opt out, but younger students (5-16) can only do so with parental permission, and since assemblies are also used to pass out important news and information it's rarely practical to do so. In one of my schools we also started and ended the day with a teacher led prayer (it was a Church of England school, but state-funded).
It's a complete scandal. For six years I can remember having to pray daily, sing hymns daily, and go on semi-frequent Church outings. And that wasn't even in a faith school.

Feel free to borrow it. We're not using it right now.
:D

You should stand for it even if you don't recite the pledge. Our flag is representative of all those that have gone before you and have given their lives so that you have the freedoms you have today. It isn't about whether you agree with politics, it is about where we have been.

I find it genuinely sad that you can't appreciate something so profound as the meaning it has.

I find it equally sad that so many people seem to think that the best way to show respect for the people who died to secure your freedoms is to drop that freedom and do what you're told, just because. It shows far more respect to actually use your freedom and decide how to act for yourself, rather than going along with what other people think is right.

Yep.

About one in three state schools in the UK are run by religious organisations, and every school is obliged by law to hold a daily act of 'collective worship' (i.e. assembly). Sixth Formers can opt out, but younger students (5-16) can only do so with parental permission, and since assemblies are also used to pass out important news and information it's rarely practical to do so. In one of my schools we also started and ended the day with a teacher led prayer (it was a Church of England school, but state-funded).

I far prefer Europe to America, but I do envy the US constitution.

If you were to go to a religious private school as well (for instance, a Yeshiva, a Catholic school...) I believe you would be required to pray as well... since it would not be a state-run school but a private one, and purportedly you would be attending it out of choice, not participating in such could negatively impact your grades.

Again, during these activities, I see no reason to announce loudly you won't. except to antagonize people/draw attention to oneself. It's simple enough to sit, stand, or kneel quietly and keep ones thought to oneself during this time -- and think about something entirely different.

If one wishes to discuss why they don't believe in/participate in such an activity, a different time and venue is more appropriate.

It's a complete scandal. For six years I can remember having to pray daily, sing hymns daily, and go on semi-frequent Church outings. And that wasn't even in a faith school.

Change it. Sign petitions. Bring a suit saying that it's discriminatory. It only remains because there has not been sufficient opposition to it.

Gutted for you, squire. We don't go in for that kind of thing here in the UK - yeah, fine, assemblies are meant to contain a prayer, but at our school, the headteacher wasn't really into that kind of thing at all, so we didn't bother.

My science teacher makes us stand for the pledge of alliegence every morning, and if we dont stand she makes the class stand for the entire class period. I have extremly weak legs so I cant stand more than 15 minuts at a time and she fails to understand this so I'm forced to stand for the pledge even though I dont believe I have to say it at all to show that I care about my country, or state, for that matter, because they also make us say the Texas pledge of alliegence

What you, your teacher, and the rest of your class fail to understand is that not only is he not allowed to make you stand he is not ABLE to make any of you stand. Next time he tries to pull that shit remain seated, try to persuade the rest of your class to remain seated as well. If he calls in the principle or security explain the situation to them. If you get in trouble from the principle or security then you have grounds for a big fat law suit. Especially if you can show proof of your medical condition.

I find it interesting that you used the word 'fealty', a word thats primary definition indicates an obligation from a vassal to their lord, to describe the relationship between a citizen and their country. Especially considering your earlier posts about how people should be proud of the freedoms afforded by the US.

Don't forget that fealty also includes a lords duty to his vassals.

Edit: Incidentally, there's a damn good reason that they burn flags. It's what you're supposed to do when the flag is soiled.



That's certainly a good point, but most flag-burners usually don't treat it as such. It's more an expression of their hatred to a particular policy/politician. I would feel better about flag burning if it were done for the reasons you suggested.

Do you think it might have something to do with the burners view that the policy/politician in question has metaphorically soiled the flag? Why do people need to be walked through this?

The Marine Corps is at least colloquially part of "the army" as I stated earlier. And you were giving more of an order than an opinion.

Probably been beaten to the punch on this but...

No it isn't
figured I go for big letters since you didn't get it the first couple of times it was said to you.

Regardless, they are still part of the army of the US. The legal name is one thing, but that does not matter. In fact, the Marines are a land force and could be said to be an army in and of itself.

No they are not a land force, they are an amphibious force, no matter how you decide to try and spin it, you're still wrong

While I agree that the army, navy and airforce are not the same thing...
why do people care so much ? They are all people that fight for their country. Why is the semantic distinction so important ?

While I agree that the army, navy and airforce are not the same thing...
why do people care so much ? They are all people that fight for their country. Why is the distinction so important ?

Well, for one I care because I was in the Marines, also because Sel Appa, after his mistake being pointed out to him continued to insist that he was correct.

i too have been yelled at to stand up during the pledge i think we have a right not to stand up i mean we have been doing it send pre K and we didnt know any better. now that we actually know whats going on in the world i believe we have a right to sit during the pledge. but what i heard when u sign ur student code of conduct ur 1st adm gets striped from u. thats what several teachers told me

i too have been yelled at to stand up during the pledge i think we have a right not to stand up i mean we have been doing it send pre K and we didnt know any better. now that we actually know whats going on in the world i believe we have a right to sit during the pledge. but what i heard when u sign ur student code of conduct ur 1st adm gets striped from u. thats what several teachers told me

If teachers told you that, they're simply wrong. While schools are allowed to restrict certain forms of speech for legitimate educational purposes, you still have all the rights guaranteed in the 1st Amendment.

While I agree that the army, navy and airforce are not the same thing...
why do people care so much ? They are all people that fight for their country. Why is the semantic distinction so important ?

Chimpanzees and humans are both (mostly) bipedal mammals, but a chimp would be mighty insulted to be called a human, wouldn't he? ;) Why is the semantic distinction so important?

Words mean something, and language is used to communicate. If you use the incorrect word, meaning becomes confused and communication is not possible.

If you were to go to a religious private school as well (for instance, a Yeshiva, a Catholic school...) I believe you would be required to pray as well... since it would not be a state-run school but a private one, and purportedly you would be attending it out of choice, not participating in such could negatively impact your grades.

Again, during these activities, I see no reason to announce loudly you won't. except to antagonize people/draw attention to oneself. It's simple enough to sit, stand, or kneel quietly and keep ones thought to oneself during this time -- and think about something entirely different.

If one wishes to discuss why they don't believe in/participate in such an activity, a different time and venue is more appropriate.

When I first deconverted and became an atheist I was terrified to tell anyone at school, because all of the teachers were involved in shoving religion down our throats and all the other children seemed to be going along with it. By making everyone pretend to believe, you're isolating those who have doubts. Children should be taught to be true to themselves and not to be ashamed of what they are.

If the prayers/religious services were held outside of the classroom at events were attendance was strictly optional then I'd agree that it'd be rude to go along for the sole purpose of disagreeing, but when the legislators have explicitly stated that children up to the age of sixteen are obliged to attend then their only option is passive resistance: either refusing to attend or refusing to take part. I'm not suggesting that they should stand up and start shouting (although I certainly wouldn't condemn it), but neither should they feel obliged to stand or kneel when everyone else does.

Change it. Sign petitions. Bring a suit saying that it's discriminatory. It only remains because there has not been sufficient opposition to it.

You think we haven't been trying?

The national teachers union has been vocally against the government's policies for years but to no effect.

Thousands of people (including myself) signed a petition to the PM asking for a change to the law to no avail.

We can't bring a suit alleging discrimination because the sovereignty of parliament is central to UK law. Even if we could file suit, the supreme court in the land is the House of Lords, which is infested with religious leaders: the top Anglican bishops all get places by default, and the top Muslim, Catholic and Jewish clergy are also a de facto presence, as are their retired predecessors. The rest of the Lords are invariably more religious and conservative than the nation as a whole.

Add to this that the press is strongly biased against even the merest hint of secularism (all the tabloids are against it, as are the Times and the Telegraph, leaving the Guardian as the only major newspaper to oppose religion in schools). They will all scream blue murder if the government tries to change the law, as will 99% of religious groups.

Politicians want to attract the immigrant vote, which is disproportionately religious, and the support of the organised churches.

All three main parties support religion in schools, giving opponents no alternatives to vote for. Anyone who opposes them is villified as an 'angry atheist' or 'secular fundamentalist'.

What more can we do?

When I first deconverted and became an atheist I was terrified to tell anyone at school, because all of the teachers were involved in shoving religion down our throats and all the other children seemed to be going along with it. By making everyone pretend to believe, you're isolating those who have doubts. Children should be taught to be true to themselves and not to be ashamed of what they are.

If the prayers/religious services were held outside of the classroom at events were attendance was strictly optional then I'd agree that it'd be rude to go along for the sole purpose of disagreeing, but when the legislators have explicitly stated that children up to the age of sixteen are obliged to attend then their only option is passive resistance: either refusing to attend or refusing to take part. I'm not suggesting that they should stand up and start shouting (although I certainly wouldn't condemn it), but neither should they feel obliged to stand or kneel when everyone else does.



You think we haven't been trying?

The national teachers union has been vocally against the government's policies for years but to no effect.

Thousands of people (including myself) signed a petition to the PM asking for a change to the law to no avail.

We can't bring a suit alleging discrimination because the sovereignty of parliament is central to UK law. Even if we could file suit, the supreme court in the land is the House of Lords, which is infested with religious leaders: the top Anglican bishops all get places by default, and the top Muslim, Catholic and Jewish clergy are also a de facto presence, as are their retired predecessors. The rest of the Lords are invariably more religious and conservative than the nation as a whole.

Add to this that the press is strongly biased against even the merest hint of secularism (all the tabloids are against it, as are the Times and the Telegraph, leaving the Guardian as the only major newspaper to oppose religion in schools). They will all scream blue murder if the government tries to change the law, as will 99% of religious groups.

Politicians want to attract the immigrant vote, which is disproportionately religious, and the support of the organised churches.

All three main parties support religion in schools, giving opponents no alternatives to vote for. Anyone who opposes them is villified as an 'angry atheist' or 'secular fundamentalist'.

What more can we do?

Please go back and read what I wrote. I simply said that when people are asked to have a moment of silence for prayer, to simply be quiet and not pray. I said not to participate, but not to disrupt. I said that beginning the discussion of "why I don't believe this" is not appropriate in a gathering where people are trying to engage in an activity, and that one should make their feelings/beliefs about their non-participation clear in a non-disruptive way.

Where did I say participate and lie about what you believe?
Where did I say children should not be true to themselves?
Where I did say I believed people should be forced into these activities?

The reason people are "vilified" is because they often express themselves rudely and antagonistically, causing a scene, and it is no less a breach of manners and immature behavior than some idiot flinging, "I'll pray for you" into your face because they know you don't believe and that it will annoy you.

If the laws have not been changed, then you need to gain more support, get more people to write letters, get more people to peacefully protest, get more people to show up at your local politicians' offices and tell them how they are not representing all of their constituents. If the laws where you are specify that there are free expression rights, or a right to be free of religious discrimination, you need to bring legal action to protect that right. You need to work consistently at this goal. If you're very much in the minority it will be difficult. Perhaps the movement for a more secular schooling could find a way to tie in human rights to their argument, and keep at it.

What more can we do?

Emigrate ;)

1. The Marine Corps is a part of the NAVY, not the ARMY. Semper Fi from a former member of the Young Marines organization!

2. I learned the pledge back in the dark ages when "Under God" was part of it, and old habits die hard - especially when I, as a Christian, believe government is a power well below God in the scale of importance.

3. Why is it that Christianity is the only religion that pople can discriminate against without facing the wrath of society? All I seek is the opportunity do declare my belief that there is a power higher than mankind. Some of you are just as dogmatic in your opposition to religion as any Christian is dogmatic about Christ. Please show at least half the respect toward us that you demand we show to those with whom we disagree.

Please read the entire post and decide whether my statements are based on sound reasoning. My premise was that Country was not my first loyalty. Religion, family, and the Constitution are my priorities. If this country continues to abandon the Constitution, make laws abridging my right to practice my religion, or makes laws that harm my family, I will disavow any ties with my country. There are lines they cannot cross.

Pray tell, what laws abridging your right to practice your religion are you talking about?


3. Why is it that Christianity is the only religion that pople can discriminate against without facing the wrath of society? All I seek is the opportunity do declare my belief that there is a power higher than mankind. Some of you are just as dogmatic in your opposition to religion as any Christian is dogmatic about Christ. Please show at least half the respect toward us that you demand we show to those with whom we disagree.

Yeah. It is so much easier being a Muslim or an atheist in the U.S. :rolleyes:

Change it. Sign petitions. Bring a suit saying that it's discriminatory. It only remains because there has not been sufficient opposition to it.
There is an opt out with parental request for other religions, so I doubt it violates the impotent Human Rights Act. However, I'm not sure whether it is legal or not to assume that a child is, or should be, a Christain or not, if no action by the parent is taken.

There's also a general legal problem here, I think. There isn't a written constitution declaring the UK a secular state and banning the establishment of religion, hence why the Church of England actually gets seats in Parliament and why various churches already run schools, and have done for years. Attenpts to change this are extremely difficult, verging on the impossible, because of the huge support for the constitutional status quo among the (unelected) House of Lords, which also functions as a Supreme Court, and major political parties as it benefits them, and the way the Church is also heavily linked with the Monarchy.

It's an unfortunate side effect of our byzantine system of government.

Attempts to change this are extremely difficult, verging on the impossible...
If we did it in Québec, then you can do it in the UK.

Seriously, it took us only a decade to boot religion out of schools, hospitals, and public offices. And we used to be led by the tip of the nose by the Catholic Church. Nobody ever regretted showing them the door in the 40 years since this happened.

So yeah, Church =/= State. And that's just how we like it. Praying's something you do at home, or in the Church/Synagogue/Mosque.

It is not mandatory to say the pledge in public schools, and I don't make my kids do it. But I DO ask them to stand quietly while others say it, and not play around or talk. I feel like that's respectful to the class as a whole. I don't believe in swearing my allegiance to an object (let alone 'under god'), but it's my job to teach it, so I do, and I ask kids to simply respect others.
The only thing I would suggest is that you let students remain seated if they choose. It's perfectly reasonable to expect them to be quiet and respectful, but making them stand is forcing them to participate (to however limited an extent).

I find it equally sad that so many people seem to think that the best way to show respect for the people who died to secure your freedoms is to drop that freedom and do what you're told, just because. It shows far more respect to actually use your freedom and decide how to act for yourself, rather than going along with what other people think is right.
This.

If the American flag really represents freedom, then I'll thank the Pledge-pushers to kindly quit telling me that I must recite a Pledge I do not believe in. The fact that I reject the Pledge has buggerall to do with my respect for my country.

3. Why is it that Christianity is the only religion that pople can discriminate against without facing the wrath of society? All I seek is the opportunity do declare my belief that there is a power higher than mankind. Some of you are just as dogmatic in your opposition to religion as any Christian is dogmatic about Christ. Please show at least half the respect toward us that you demand we show to those with whom we disagree.
Why is it that every single President of the United States--EVER--has been Christian? Why is it that the Supreme Court is Christian-controlled? Why is it that the Congress is, and always has been, overwhelmingly dominated by Christians?

If you Christians are still "discriminated against," then I suggest you take that to the Christian leaders who have been running the country for the last couple hundred years. You're certainly not going to get anything but laughs from the atheists who have been waiting generations to see a single elected leader share our "dogmatic" views.

Yeah. It is so much easier being a Muslim or an atheist in the U.S. :rolleyes:
Fun Fact: Americans are less willing to vote for an atheist president than they are to vote for a gay president.

Fun Fact: There is a 100% chance that a Christian president will be elected to office for the next term.

Allow me to play my tiny, tiny violin for the poor Christians who are so harshly discriminated against.

Please go back and read what I wrote. I simply said that when people are asked to have a moment of silence for prayer, to simply be quiet and not pray. I said not to participate, but not to disrupt. I said that beginning the discussion of "why I don't believe this" is not appropriate in a gathering where people are trying to engage in an activity, and that one should make their feelings/beliefs about their non-participation clear in a non-disruptive way.

Where did I say participate and lie about what you believe?
Where did I say children should not be true to themselves?
Where I did say I believed people should be forced into these activities?

Apparently I misread your post, apologies. :)

The reason people are "vilified" is because they often express themselves rudely and antagonistically, causing a scene, and it is no less a breach of manners and immature behavior than some idiot flinging, "I'll pray for you" into your face because they know you don't believe and that it will annoy you.

Simply not true. To use an example which has come up only in the last few days, the National Secular Society and the British Humanist Association have asked the Equality and Human Rights Commission to put pressure on the Scouts to make the religious part of their oath optional. This is the press release on the NSS website:

The Scouting Association is to be challenged over its discriminatory policy against non-believers.

The senior executives of the National Secular Society and British Humanist Association met their counterparts at Scout HQ on 24 January 2008, having previously sent them a well-argued submission. Our main demand was for the religious oath to be made optional. The Chief Executive of the Scout Association made clear at the meeting that the Scout Association was not prepared to reconsider their stance on this. The NSS offered to fund a poll of Scouts to find out if they supported the continuation of the ban on non-believers, but this offer was turned down. We are convinced that Scouts, if asked an open question, would not want to continue the discrimination.

Keith Porteous Wood, Executive Director of the National Secular Society said: “The Scout’s exclusion of the growing number of children and young people without religious beliefs flies in the face of the reality of religious adherence in the UK. Two-thirds of teenagers define themselves as non-religious, and the only way they can join the Scouts is to lie. It is intolerable that they should be put in this position to join what is often the sole youth organisation in many areas.

“On their website, Scouts claim to be 'open to all', but they are not; and 'inclusive'”.

Mr Porteous Wood added: “We acknowledge the Scouts do a tremendous job, and are convinced that, if asked, most Scouts would not want to continue to exclude their non-religious comrades. Keith Porteous Wood has now raised the matter directly with Trevor Phillips, Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, to put pressure on the Scouting Association to change its policy and come in line with modern thinking on discrimination.

Neither rude nor antagonistic, no? Yet two broadsheet newspapers have published vitriolic responses to the move:

* The National Secular Society has written to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, claiming that the Scout movement discriminates against atheists by asking children to pledge allegiance to God. "Two-thirds of teenagers define themselves as non-religious," says Keith Porteous Wood, "and the only way they can join the Scouts is to lie." Wow, what a non-religious lunatic he must be.

I was a teenager who quite definitely didn't believe in God. But I still managed to love being in the Guides. I said the dreaded words, but I didn't lie. I just pledged allegiance to an entity that didn't exist. Saying words you consider meaningless isn't lying. It's just being polite to the nice people who have organised the activities you want to take part in.

Demanding that a busy government quango take time to deal with your hair-splitting commitment to religious non-tolerance, on the other hand, is rude. This fool insists that the Scouts discriminate because they are "the sole youth organisation in many areas". Maybe the Secular Society should come up with an alternative, rather than harry people who are bothering to make a positive effort. It's funny how a strong belief in not-God can make people just as foolish as blind believers in anything else can be.

Bear in mind that the Independent is traditionally the second-most liberal UK paper (after the Guardian). The Times published Ron Liddle as saying:

The Scout Association is to be hauled before the Equality and Human Rights Commission because it requires of its young members a promise that they “do their duty to God”. The increasingly gobby National Secular Society and the British Humanist Association argue that this discriminates against young atheists (unless they make their promise with crossed fingers or standing in a satanic pentacle).

The obvious answer is for the children of committed atheists to join an organisation which does not demand of them a belief in the omnipotence of God, but instead a belief in the omnipotence of members of the National Secular Society, or of Polly Toynbee or of nothing whatsoever. Lord Baden-Powell had some strange views, especially about spanking and cold showers, but he was very clear that the scout movement he founded was rooted in the Christian faith. Perhaps the National Secular Society will next attempt to prosecute the Roman Catholic Church for discriminating against people who believe that transubstantiation is pushing it a bit. Or indeed humanist organisations which take a discriminatory stance against people who believe in God. Such as the National Secular Society.

Why would you join a pressure group whose raison d’être is that it doesn’t believe in anything? Unless it is simply to persecute and harass those people who do?

Need I say more? The NSS aren't even asking for the pledge to be removed, only for it to be made optional, but mainstream newspapers still scream persecution and publish hateful rants against them. I could find far worse if I looked in the tabloids...

Feel free to borrow it. We're not using it right now.

Sigged. :p

3. Why is it that Christianity is the only religion that pople can discriminate against without facing the wrath of society? All I seek is the opportunity do declare my belief that there is a power higher than mankind. Some of you are just as dogmatic in your opposition to religion as any Christian is dogmatic about Christ. Please show at least half the respect toward us that you demand we show to those with whom we disagree.

Oh get over yourself. Christians are not "discriminated against". People by and large are not refused jobs because they are christians. People are not prevented from having christian ceremonies. People are not arrested because they "look christian". Despite your, and others, quite erronious belief, being disagreed with is not discrimination. You are not discriminated against by being told your beliefs are wrong. You are not discriminated against when someone tells you your faith is silly. You are not discriminated against because you are told that others don't like religion.

I don't like christianity. I think it is an erronious, bigoted, hatefilled and nonsensical belief system. You are not being discriminated against by me saying that. Stop pretending somehow that you are entitled not to hear it, when you said the very same in your post here. To declare yourself a christian is to declare "I believe that the tenants of christianity are true". Likewise, to declare that you believe the tenants of christianity are true is, by necessity, to state that you believe that anyone who does not believe in the tenants of christianity is wrong.

That's what it means to hold a religion. If you believe something to be true, you must also believe that anyone who does not believe as you do is wrong. Your "declaration of your belief" is you declaring that you believe me to be wrong because I don't believe in the same. Every time you voice "I am a christian" you voice "I believe everyone who is not a christian is wrong". So you are not immune from being told of my own belief that it is you who is wrong.

So get over yourself.

Also, is it just me or does the US not have an actually left wing party (the democrats are centre right), they seem to need it.
As an American:

Yes. Yes, we do need one. Badly. Please send help.

Yep.

About one in three state schools in the UK are run by religious organisations, and every school is obliged by law to hold a daily act of 'collective worship' (i.e. assembly). Sixth Formers can opt out, but younger students (5-16) can only do so with parental permission, and since assemblies are also used to pass out important news and information it's rarely practical to do so. In one of my schools we also started and ended the day with a teacher led prayer (it was a Church of England school, but state-funded).

I far prefer Europe to America, but I do envy the US constitution.

Most comprehensive schools in britain (or South east wales at least) don't bother enforcing the rule, since it clashes with the whole human rights thing (sorry if this quote's a bit out of sync). Also, there isn't really a sense of british identity, there's English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Ulster, European, Global citizen and various ethnic minorities, but very little "britishness" outside of new labour (who need to keep the idea because most of their majority over the tories are in Wales and Scotland so they don't really want independence there).
Also, is it just me or does the US not have an actually left wing party (the democrats are centre right), they seem to need it.

As an American:

Yes. Yes, we do need one. Badly. Please send help.

I would, but the british left wing politics was brutally crushed by thatcher in the 80's (she's still the most overall hated briton still alive, perhaps ever), New labour's very right wing in comparison to it's grassroot voters.

Still, there's always the revolution to hope for, comrade (although yours'll be 4 months late because I heard they moved may day (may 1st), the workers holiday, to september 1st in the US) :D

Will try to find an instruction manual for setting one up, tough (the party or the revolution, I don't mind which ;D)

I would, but the british left wing politics was brutally crushed by thatcher in the 80's (she's still the most overall hated briton still alive, perhaps ever), New labour's very right wing in comparison to it's grassroot voters.

Still, there's always the revolution to hope for, comrade (although yours'll be 4 months late because I heard they moved may day (may 1st), the workers holiday, to september 1st in the US) :D

Will try to find an instruction manual for setting one up, tough (the party or the revolution, I don't mind which ;D)

YES! The revolutions will begin, more comrades for the cause!
In Soviet America Corporations Rule You!...oh wait that's true.:)
We will desend on the corrupt leaderships of the world, without terrorist action, but by peaceful protest!
The Red Sun Rises!

*gift wraps Tony Benn and posts to Bottle*

You can have him.
I admit I don't know a ton about him, but what I know seems like just the sort of thing American could use right about now.

Particularly his Five Questions One Should Ask People In Power:

"What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you use it? To whom are you accountable? How do we get rid of you?"

As an American:

Yes. Yes, we do need one. Badly. Please send help.

*gift wraps Tony Benn and posts to Bottle*

You can have him.

Its a social norm to say the pleadge

not to stand for the pleadge is basically social suicide

Its a social norm to say the pleadge

not to stand for the pleadge is basically social suicide

Be proud to be free or face the wrath of our mob justice! We command it!

:rolleyes:

Its a social norm to say the pleadge

not to stand for the pleadge is basically social suicide
Yeah, because non-conformity is totally uncool among teens.

Yeah, because non-conformity is totally uncool among teens.

Non-conforimty isn't cool. However conforming to a group of conformists that label themselves as non-conformists is cool. No matter what age you are you need to conform, just to different standards.

Why is it that every single President of the United States--EVER--has been Christian?
They had to PRETEND to be Christians, although the beliefs of people like Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln were not at all what fundamentalist Christians would accept as "Christian" at all.
Still, I do not fancy my own chances (as a gay atheist) to get elected to the White House anytime soon.

The only thing I would suggest is that you let students remain seated if they choose. It's perfectly reasonable to expect them to be quiet and respectful, but making them stand is forcing them to participate (to however limited an extent).

That's a good point. I should clarify, actually, that I have taught 4th grade and Kinder and I only made the Kindergartners stand, for three reasons: 1) a huge part of the kinder curriculum is learning to follow rules and behave appropriately in the classroom; 2) i am required by law to teach the pledge to that grade, and they haven't encountered it sometimes before and made up their minds like older students; and 3) it is nigh on impossible to have a group of five year olds in various states of sitting, laying or standing at once for more than 10 seconds!

They had to PRETEND to be Christians, although the beliefs of people like Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln were not at all what fundamentalist Christians would accept as "Christian" at all.Funny how their opinion is not the measure of things, isn't it?

But whose is then ? The Roman Catholics, since they form the majority of Christians ?How about objectivity? A Christian is someone who worships Jesus Christ as the saviour, while a muslim is someone who believes in Allah, and that Mohammed is his prophet. They can still be "bad" Christians, but to deny that someone is a Christian because they worship different than you is an entirely subjective matter without any real merit.

Funny how their opinion is not the measure of things, isn't it?

But whose is then ? The Roman Catholics, since they form the majority of Christians ?