NationStates Jolt Archive

sadly i am forced to agree with you, and i reaaaaaaalllllllllllly dont like to agree with you, I am lebanese and i dont strive so bad for the defeat of Israel, but with all honesty, check the numbers of arabs dead over the conflict and the numbers of Israelis dead, and do the math.

Ah stats. A hobby of mine to look at! The problem is the style of attacks that were used. Hezbollah launched mainly Kaytushia rocket attacks which are whole inaccurate and are area weapons pretty much. Obviously this is going to cause mostly damage with a few casualties. Now couple that with the IDF going into Lebanon and being forced to fight house to house and dealing with attacks from primarily residential buildings. Under International Law, once a building is being used for military purposes, the building becomes a legal target for attack. Obviously this is going to cause more casualties. So really...who is at fault for the death toll in Lebanon?

PS: my religion teacher told me God always valued blood sacifices more than others, AKA Cain and Abel, considering all of the people dead were "martyring " themselves, he must be pretty pleased

Which tells me this religious teacher is an idiot.

Ah stats. A hobby of mine to look at! The problem is the style of attacks that were used. Hezbollah launched mainly Kaytushia rocket attacks which are whole inaccurate and are area weapons pretty much. Obviously this is going to cause mostly damage with a few casualties. Now couple that with the IDF going into Lebanon and being forced to fight house to house and dealing with attacks from primarily residential buildings. Under International Law, once a building is being used for military purposes, the building becomes a legal target for attack. Obviously this is going to cause more casualties. So really...who is at fault for the death toll in Lebanon?

multiple goverments: USA, UK, Germany,France, Russia, Israel, Hezballoh, Palestine, just to name a few

A. Now couple that with the IDF going into Lebanon and being forced to fight house to house and dealing with attacks from primarily residential buildings. Under International Law, once a building is being used for military purposes, the building becomes a legal target for attack

None of which covers any of the casualties in Beirut. I seem to remember they took out a university proffessor (and his family with him) as he had publicly supported Hamas. Presumably you can justify that one to me as well, bearing in mind you Americans love for 'freedom of speech'.

my oh my.
And I remember when the PLO wree only pawns of the soviet Union, then gangsters, then "Islamists"....Yet the one consistent thing seemed to be they were still occupied by Israel and wanted them out....

Right. They want to detroy Israel since its creation.

...but you already acknowledged they were not Israeli citizens and thus are not subject to the draft. Therefore they are being militarised and fed propoganda.

Um, they would only go there to prepare for the military or experience what it would be like so that they can reevaluate their decision. Say, do you ever take hallucinatory drugs? Because I really can't understand how someone can continue making the same false claim after being shown repeatedly how it's completely wrong. You've puzzled me.


None whatseover, and theres enough dead Arab Civillians to show it.

Haha you really just acknowledged that an 18 year old serving in the military is the same as a 14 year old blowing himself up to kill innocents. So therefore you both:
1. Support the use of children under 18 in war.
2. Support the killing of innocent civillians.
3. Support the combination of the two.
Nice. You're allowed to hold these beliefs, but they were recently banned by only, hmm...the entire world (UN).


I have no idea why you are striving to be dishonest in this manner, however.....

You stated



to which I replied



You seek to create the red herring regarding Israel thereafter.

haha it's nice to quote some of the posts back, but really I feel it is unnecessary to point out that you were the first to raise the issue of nuclear powers. So, again, either your memory is impaired (Alzheimer's?) or perhaps you've just run out of arguments and are just further trying to prove in some way how I might be wrong. Not to mention the continuous evasions through partial quoting and large ommissions from what I say, but that's ok, because I've been playing along, and will continue to do so, just to show how even with that, your argument holds no grounds.


I find that a bit amusing from somebody who refuses point blank to discuss the semi-apartheid policy in the OT, evades discussions of settlements by the cry "but thats different" etc and so on.

Nope, I will not discuss with you apartheid in Israel. East Jerusalem and existing cities are indeed a different matter.


When I mentioned Benjamin Netanyahu celebrating the King David Hotel bomings anniversary, you didn't feel moved to make such a comment. Why?
If you feel it's something that's important to discuss, bring a source, and make your point.

Getting weaker and weaker.

You see, in a state that is created out of injustice and that continues the injustice, there is no such thing as an innocent civilian. Every Israeli is guilty of displacing Arabs and expanding Jewish settlements and maintaining the occupation. They pay for it and they elect the politicians to keep up the injustice. Israel is evil and all that have been involved with it ever since the idea of the Judenstaat was stared to be implemented are evil. Palestine has been Arab for the best part of two millennia, and that is how it is supposed to be.

really? the children too?

So you too, support of the intentional killing of innocent civillians. Nice.You see, in a state that is created out of injustice and that continues the injustice, there is no such thing as an innocent civilian. Every Israeli is guilty of displacing Arabs and expanding Jewish settlements and maintaining the occupation. They pay for it and they elect the politicians to keep up the injustice. Israel is evil and all that have been involved with it ever since the idea of the Judenstaat was stared to be implemented are evil. Palestine has been Arab for the best part of two millennia, and that is how it is supposed to be.

really? the children too?well, inheritable sin is a jewish concept. it's only fair to apply it to them.

multiple goverments: USA, UK, Germany,France, Russia, Israel, Hezballoh, Palestine, just to name a few

Very good.

well, inheritable sin is a jewish concept. it's only fair to apply it to them.

Yes. That was probably the only answer that would be consistent with logic. But when we say that a new born infant of a certain citizenship/culture/ethnicity/religion/so on... already deserves death, has a very nice name - it's called Fascism.
And indeed you are right, you are being cosistent with reason, because that is indeed the only viable argument in favor of what the Palestinians are doing with regards to terrorism, but unfortunately it's a belief that became highly unpopular at around the 1940's and 50's. If the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would have only occured before WWII, you wouldn't be criticized about using that argument. But unfortunately for you, we are in the civilized, modern world, so it's not allowed. Sorry.

You see, in a state that is created out of injustice and that continues the injustice, there is no such thing as an innocent civilian.

This is why no one takes you seriously UB. This statement is idiotic.

Every Israeli is guilty of displacing Arabs

WRONG!!! Now you are just being as idiotic as those who want to see all Palestinians punished for what Hamas and Fatah have done to Israel.

They pay for it and they elect the politicians to keep up the injustice.

Just like the Palestinians electing a terrorist organization that has vowed to destroy Israel. So tell me, whats the difference?

Israel is evil and all that have been involved with it ever since the idea of the Judenstaat was stared to be implemented are evil.

Um ok....Palestine is evil and all that have been involved with it ever since the idea of a muslimstaat (yes totally made up word) was stared to be implemented are evil

Palestine has been Arab for the best part of two millennia, and that is how it is supposed to be.

BULLSHIT!

Um, they would only go there to prepare for the military or experience what it would be like so that they can reevaluate their decision. Say, do you ever take hallucinatory drugs? Because I really can't understand how someone can continue making the same false claim after being shown repeatedly how it's completely wrong. You've puzzled me..

They're British.....Participants are told on leaving of their responsibility to act as ambassadors for the 'misunderstood' IDF. "Israel sees the 70,000 Diaspora kids we host every year as advocates: people who will stand up for Israel when it is under threat and attacked and will challenge bad views, especially on university campuses" the spokesman said. "Most won't ever emigrate to Israel, but we need to educate them to defend their spiritual homeland by arguing for it."

Hence the desire to get Jewish teenagers to see the Middle East crisis through the eyes of an IDF recruit. "The decommissioned guns we carried weren't meant to symbolise weapons – they were there so we could really understand what it felt to be a soldier" says Fitch. "Just by carrying it we were able to empathise more with the IDF."

Indoctrination, to counter the fact that many Jews outside Israel have no desire to be associated with the occupation and the bruality it represents....


Nice. You're allowed to hold these beliefs, but they were recently banned by only, hmm...the entire world (UN).."


That'd be the same UN that dismisses as valid the aqqusition of territory by force, and all the settlements outside the 1967 borders as illegal, I presume.



Nope, I will not discuss with you apartheid in Israel. ).."

..because the last thread you got into that one with me, you had your ass handed to you.


East Jerusalem and existing cities are indeed a different matter.).."

Not according to the UN (the UN whose judgement you seem to respect) they aren't, no.


If you feel it's something that's important to discuss, bring a source, and make your point....

AS ISRAEL wages war against Hezbollah “terrorists” in Lebanon, Britain has protested about the celebration by right-wing Israelis of a Jewish “act of terrorism” against British rule 60 years ago this week.

The rightwingers, including Binyamin Netanyahu, the former Prime Minister, are commemorating the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the headquarters of British rule, that killed 92 people and helped to drive the British from Palestine
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2277717,00.html

Not a peep from you when I posted that earlier, yet you're so quick to condemn Palestinian "terrorism" when they want to liberate themselves from Israeli occupation....

This is why no one takes you seriously UB. This statement is idiotic.

I take him seriously. Fascists do still exist, and Nazism is also still around.


WRONG!!! Now you are just being as idiotic as those who want to see all Palestinians punished for what Hamas and Fatah have done to Israel.

Um, not that many people want to see the Palestinians punished. The poor souls have suffered enough through the years.


Just like the Palestinians electing a terrorist organization that has vowed to destroy Israel. So tell me, whats the difference?

Big difference. Electing a terrorist organization is nothing like Israel's political system. Your way of debuking arguments against Israel by comparing them to Palestine is something I'm not sure I exactly find to be the best way to deal with them.


Um ok....Palestine is evil and all that have been involved with it ever since the idea of a muslimstaat (yes totally made up word) was stared to be implemented are evil

And again, don't go down to that level, and also accusing the Palestinians of wrong-doing does not clear up Israel from blame. Instead using reason and truthfull facts logically show that many such claims are in fact ludicrous.

A state for jews was wrong in 1916 (when butthole Balfour made his evil declaration) and that has not changed. Just do away with it. No religious nutjob group needs a territorial state in the homeland of another people.

And indeed you are right, you are being cosistent with reason, because that is indeed the only viable argument in favor of what the Palestinians are doing with regards to terrorism, .

Since when is resistance to an occupation in any way nessecarily related to that concept?

A state for jews was wrong in 1916 (when butthole Balfour made his evil declaration) and that has not changed. Just do away with it. No religious nutjob group needs a territorial state in the homeland of another people.

UB? Please leave the wonderful world of fantasy and come back up to the real world and open your mind. You'll be better for it.

They're British.....

Indoctrination, to counter the fact that many Jews outside Israel have no desire to be associated with the occupation and the bruality it represents....


So, you're against education? They are taught how to defend Israel not attack Palestine.



That'd be the same UN that dismisses as valid the aqqusition of territory by force, and all the settlements outside the 1967 borders as illegal, I presume.

So you do in fact support child soldiers and killing of innocent civillians. Interesting point of view. It's nice to know someone in person who actually is in favor of these things, otherwise there would be no reason to argue against them, would there.




..because the last thread you got into that one with me, you had your ass handed to you.

haha, no, actually because when two populations live in two different states, it cannot be called apartheid sorry.
But I will continue not to discuss it, as such claims show a deep misunderstanding of the situation. Go learn.

Not according to the UN (the UN whose judgement you seem to respect) they aren't, no.





http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2277717,00.html

Not a peep from you when I posted that earlier, yet you're so quick to condemn Palestinian "terrorism" when they want to liberate themselves from Israeli occupation....

During the British Mandate, the southern wing of the hotel was turned into a British administrative and military headquarters. That's called a military, not civillian target. Sorry.

Since when is resistance to an occupation in any way nessecarily related to that concept?
When they intentionally kill innocent civillians.

And I remember when the PLO wree only pawns of the soviet Union, then gangsters, then "Islamists"....Yet the one consistent thing seemed to be they were still occupied by Israel and wanted them out....
I remember when they were NOT occupied by Israel but wanted all the Jews dead anyhow.

There is no difference. The government of Israel keeps getting elected because of the actions of the Palestinians and vice versa. So no. There is zero difference between them.

Except Hamas has a terroristic militia, and Kadimah (nor any other Israeli party) doesn't.

The last part is true but yes. I can accuse the Palestinian government of wrong doing just the same as I accuse the US government of wrong doing and any government that does wrong.

Yea, but that doesn't resolve Israel of their accusations.


I guess that leaves out most of your arguments then doesn't it?
Uh, no, I don't think so.

I take him seriously. Fascists do still exist, and Nazism is also still around.

On these boards, UB and others are not taken seriously at all because they are idiots.

Um, not that many people want to see the Palestinians punished. The poor souls have suffered enough through the years.

I see you missed the point. Not surprising based on all that I am reading. People claim that Israel does collective punishment. That is true but people like UB and Andaras believe the samething in regards to killing Jews.

Big difference. Electing a terrorist organization is nothing like Israel's political system. Your way of debuking arguments against Israel by comparing them to Palestine is something I'm not sure I exactly find to be the best way to deal with them.

There is no difference. The government of Israel keeps getting elected because of the actions of the Palestinians and vice versa. So no. There is zero difference between them.

And again, don't go down to that level, and also accusing the Palestinians of wrong-doing does not clear up Israel from blame.

The last part is true but yes. I can accuse the Palestinian government of wrong doing just the same as I accuse the US government of wrong doing and any government that does wrong.

Instead using reason and truthfull facts logically show that many such claims are in fact ludicrous.

I guess that leaves out most of your arguments then doesn't it?

During the British Mandate, the southern wing of the hotel was turned into a British administrative and military headquarters. That's called a military, not civillian target. Sorry.

That's actually true.

Except Hamas has a terroristic militia, and Kadimah (nor any other Israeli party) doesn't.

Israel has the IDF which is far more deadly than Hamas.

Yea, but that doesn't resolve Israel of their accusations.

Did I say it did?

Uh, no, I don't think so.

I think it does.

Israel has the IDF which is far more deadly than Hamas.

Right, but it's not terroristic (i.e. it doesn't target innocent civillians). Quite the opposite in fact. Also, it's not run by the approval of a portion of the population (yes, a party that has a majority, but nonetheless a portion), but rather represents Israel's people as a whole, as they all serve in it.


Did I say it did?

no

I think it does.
I don't. Was anything that I said factually inaccurate? I am more than willing to discuss anything I had said.

I take him seriously. Fascists do still exist, and Nazism is also still around.See, you don't have to be a Nazi to oppose Judaism and all that came out of it. Neither do you have to be a fascist. The only reason for Israel's existence is a retarded belief system that gives Jews a claim to the land between the Jordan and the sea. To give Palestine to Jews meant to punish its Arabs population for something that happened in far away Europe. As long as this injustice is not unmade there is no reason to see anything else in any Israeli as a Jew hungry for land. There has not been any effort towards a peaceful solution on the Israeli side ever since Rabin was shot and Netanyahu was subsequently elected PM (a clear statement by the Israelis what they really wanted). The settlements are continuously expanded and that means that Israel does not have the slightest intention of returning anything to the Arabs. Israel cannot be trusted and everyone is best advised not to.
Everyone who supports Israel automatically says that it is ok to force Arabs out of their land, because that's what made and makes Israel exist. And I just cannot accept colonization and ethnic cleansing. Palestinian Arabs have every justification to fight the occupiers and thiefs of their home land.

Right, but it's not terroristic (i.e. it doesn't target innocent civillians).Yeah, the countless dead Palestinian civilians are just collateral damage. :rolleyes:

See, you don't have to be a Nazi to oppose Judaism and all that came out of it. Neither do you have to be a fascist.

That's true.

The only reason for Israel's existence is a retarded belief system that gives Jews a claim to the land between the Jordan and the sea. To give Palestine to Jews meant to punish its Arabs population for something that happened in far away Europe.

Umm yea....that was why Palestine was divided between both groups so that both the Palestinians and the Jews can have a state. The Jews declared statehood and the Palestinians put their stock in the nations that went to war with Israel and lost.

Israel cannot be trusted and everyone is best advised not to.

And the Palestinians can?

Everyone who supports Israel automatically says that it is ok to force Arabs out of their land, because that's what made and makes Israel exist.

Nice conspiracy there buddy. Some sure but everyone? *dies of laughter*

And I just cannot accept colonization and ethnic cleansing.

Ethnic cleansing? So you support the total destruction of Israel and deporting its people. You cannot accept ethnic cleansing but yet you want to see the Jews deported from the region. That's ethnic cleansing.

Palestinian Arabs have every justification to fight the occupiers and thiefs of their home land.

They do not have the justification of blowing up innocent men, women, and children. Its these actions that the world condemns and is why Hamas is treated the way they are currently being treated.

That's actually true.

It's also true that it was both a military and a civilian target, and that most of the people killed were not military personel.

....that was why Palestine was divided between both groups so that both the Palestinians and the Jews can have a state. The Jews declared statehood and the Palestinians put their stock in the nations that went to war with Israel and lost.That's a lie.
The division of Palestine was only planned because Jews had already forced themselves into Palestine in great numbers and were setting up militias to create havoc among the native inhabitants.
And the division of Palestine was not an act of creating justice between two equal groups. It was an act of taking land from one group and giving it to another.
Tell me one reason why any Palestinian Arab should have given up his home and livelihood to immigrating foreigners just because the distant British and later the UN decided so over their heads?

That's a lie.

The Historical Archives tells me different.

It's also true that it was both a military and a civilian target, and that most of the people killed were not military personel.

True but under International Law when a building is being used for military purposes, it does become a legit target to hit.

The Historical Archives tells me different.

What? That Palestine was an empty land before it was to be divided and given to two groups? That Palestinian Arabs were not already there before Jews immigrated en masse with the set aim to create a state regardless of the population present?

What? That Palestine was an empty land before it was to be divided and given to two groups? That Palestinian Arabs were not already there before Jews immigrated en masse with the set aim to create a state regardless of the population present?

You see? This is why you are not takin seriously.

That's a lie.
The division of Palestine was only planned because Jews had already forced themselves into Palestine in great numbers and were setting up militias to create havoc among the native inhabitants.
And the division of Palestine was not an act of creating justice between two equal groups. It was an act of taking land from one group and giving it to another.
Tell me one reason why any Palestinian Arab should have given up his home and livelihood to immigrating foreigners just because the distant British and later the UN decided so over their heads?

Because they lack(ed) the power/authority to effectively resist.

Doesn't mean it's right, just that "might", in its various forms, makes not necessarily "right" but at least reality.

Because they lack(ed) the power/authority to effectively resist.

Doesn't mean it's right, just that "might", in its various forms, makes not necessarily "right" but at least reality.

We're talking about what is right, not what is convenient.

Because they lack(ed) the power/authority to effectively resist. How is that a reason? If you cannot fight the invader you just surrender, give up your home, leave, and call the invasion justified?

Doesn't mean it's right, just that "might", in its various forms, makes not necessarily "right" but at least reality.In this case reality could be corrected to restore justice. Just send the immigrant Jews and their offspring back to whence they came. In Palestine the Jewish population has always made up 5 to 10 %, and it would be only natural to restore that.

They're British.....

Indoctrination, to counter the fact that many Jews outside Israel have no desire to be associated with the occupation and the bruality it represents....


So, you're against education? They are taught how to defend Israel not attack Palestine.



That'd be the same UN that dismisses as valid the aqqusition of territory by force, and all the settlements outside the 1967 borders as illegal, I presume.


So you do in fact support child soldiers and killing of innocent civillians. Interesting point of view. It's nice to know someone in person who actually is in favor of these things, otherwise there would be no reason to argue against them, would there.

Intelligenstan, you flop around more than an eel out of water and make stinky trails of red herrings worse than a seasonal trawler with a truck sized hole in its hold. Stop it. Either debate Nodinia's points and stop making up your own bullshit or just leave this thread.

Playing the blind and deaf propagandist may gain you some favor among the likes of Likud, Isreali far right radicals and fundamentalist criminals, but you're not fooling anyone here. Even if you don't claim to support them, your actions are mirrors of theirs.

All you're doing is playing the Isreali equivalent of Stormfront.

So, you're against education? They are taught how to defend Israel not attack Palestine..

......Military education. Its still militarising the young. As its not aimed at Israeli citizens, but the wider diaspora its also propgandising, and enlisting the attendees for that purpose to carry out those duties in their own countries, and is therefore recruiting.


haha, no, actually because when two populations live in two different states, it cannot be called apartheid sorry...

The settlers live (illegally, according to international law) in the OT and are subject to Israeli civil law and all its protections. The Palestinians (the legal inhabitants) are subject to a form of military law, and are not afforded the protections of the Geneva convention. Therefore we have two populations in one area being treated by two standards.


During the British Mandate, the southern wing of the hotel was turned into a British administrative and military headquarters. That's called a military, not civillian target. Sorry. ...

According to the British it was a "terrorist" action. These gentlemen didn't were uniforms either...neither did those who planted the bomb..Isn't that part of someones definition of "terrorist"?


When they intentionally kill innocent civillians.

The lehi did kill both Jewish and Arab civillians, even the chief UN negotiator.....Yitzak Shamir was Lehi and he went on to become PM of Israel......The Irgun used plant large charges in Arab markets......I seem to recall they killed over 70 in one attack. Whereas I don't presume to judge, I find your high horse attitude most absurd.


I remember when they were NOT occupied by Israel but wanted all the Jews dead anyhow..

Apparently they cannot bake traditional Arab bread with adding a sprinkle of Jewish blood. They have feet like hooves and vestigal tails and horns too....


Right, but it's not terroristic (i.e. it doesn't target innocent civillians). ..

....it just can't shoot straight and that why it keeps hitting them, often with single shots to the head, as I've illustrated numerous times....I was particular taken with the bad shot that mistook the red-haired Irish woman for a Palestinian in broad daylight. I suppose you could stand her next to the average Al Aqsa brigade or Hamas member and there'd be divil the difference between them...

How (.....)that.

I have yet to participate in a thread where you posted and did not lower the tone with the content. Considering how low that can be pre- your arrival, thats not a good thing.

If Bani(Banee) Israil's descesdant can lay claim to a land, which have for 2000 years are not lived by them, then how the h#ll this can be fitted into our logic? (At least mine...)

Israils, hear this. Your golden age has passed, so do us. Our both great empire has ruined, and that from the works of the Europeans, the failed Christians. The failed Nasrani. If you wanted to restore the might of your Empire, then please don't do it with the Europeans' helps. Got it?

All of us, humans, are quick to forget. It would be best if both sides get the same weapons, techs, etc. Then we can see who can win honourably (which I presumed will be Arabs, with their high morale and so on...)

This is all nonsense. Israel can only existed because of helps from the West. It would be best to cut this help lines first, after that we can easily annihilated them...

How is that a reason? If you cannot fight the invader you just surrender, give up your home, leave, and call the invasion justified?

Yes. Unless of course, it is your preference to die resisting.

In this case reality could be corrected to restore justice. Just send the immigrant Jews and their offspring back to whence they came. In Palestine the Jewish population has always made up 5 to 10 %, and it would be only natural to restore that.

Indeed. If there is sufficient power to overcome the Jews' ability to resist, then they could be uprooted.

Justification is always found by those with power.

We're talking about what is right, not what is convenient.

Then you are excluding virtually all of human history.

If Bani(Banee) Israil's descesdant can lay claim to a land, which have for 2000 years are not lived by them, then how the h#ll this can be fitted into our logic? (At least mine...)

Israils, hear this. Your golden age has passed, so do us. Our both great empire has ruined, and that from the works of the Europeans, the failed Christians. The failed Nasrani. If you wanted to restore the might of your Empire, then please don't do it with the Europeans' helps. Got it?

All of us, humans, are quick to forget. It would be best if both sides get the same weapons, techs, etc. Then we can see who can win honourably (which I presumed will be Arabs, with their high morale and so on...)

This is all nonsense. Israel can only existed because of helps from the West. It would be best to cut this help lines first, after that we can easily annihilated them...I agree.

So, it turns out that the Palestinians shouldn't have been let through to buy food, because, so far, at least two of them have taken the opportunity and proven that keeping everyone else penned in was a good idea:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7225775.stm

So, it turns out that the Palestinians shouldn't have been let through to buy food, because, so far, at least two of them have taken the opportunity and proven that keeping everyone else penned in was a good idea:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7225775.stmkeeping "everyone penned in" is not a solution because if it was the Berlin wall would have worked.

keeping "everyone penned in" is not a solution because if it was the Berlin wall would have worked.Wrong analogy.

Yeah right.. :rolleyes:

I guess justifications for War or Violence can always be found.

But the Palestinians ARE justified in committing their acts of violence, right? I guess the Palestinians will always find justifications. :rolleyes:

But the Palestinians ARE justified in committing their acts of violence, right? both sides are terrorist, the only difference is that the Palestinians are the resistance, they are resisting occupation .

But the Palestinians ARE justified in committing their acts of violence, right?Just as were the Belgians and Dutch when they fought against their German occupiers. If a foreign force occupies your homeland you have every moral right to blow these foreigners up.

yes. Its the only way. Other than doing a genocide on all Arabs.

Since that is not going to happen (the land thing) I completely and wholeheartedly support your second alternative. I mean, it's a good alternative even if the first one would work! :)

both sides are terrorist, the only difference is that the Palestinians are the resistance, they are resisting occupation .

Yeah, like I said, that their "justification" :rolleyes: ....and yours.

Just as were the Belgians and Dutch when they fought against their German occupiers. If a foreign force occupies your homeland you have every moral right to blow these foreigners up.They attacked German civilians?

What's a civilian in war times?Stupid question.

Since that is not going to happen (giving them the land back) I completely and wholeheartedly support (Genocide on all Arabs). I mean, it's a good alternative even if (Giving them the Land) would work! :)I guess thats what Zionism is all about. (Supporting genocide and ethnic cleansing instead of giving the land back)

Yeah, like I said, that their "justification" :rolleyes: ....and yours.I choose to side with resistance groups in WW2, and today. Whether you like it or not.

What's a civilian in war times?

A civilian in war times is the same as a civilian in peacetime. Google does wonders, and so does a dictionary...

Stupid question.A civilian in war times is the same as a civilian in peacetime. Google does wonders, and so does a dictionary...I think, what he means to say is "civilians lives and suffering are a not priority in War".
They are paid a lot of lipservice, but in reality they are only collateral in the mind of the generals.

I think, what he means to say is "civilians lifes and suffering are not taken very little consideration in War".
They are paid a lot of lipservice, but in reality they are only collateral in the mind of the generals.I think he meant to take it back, seeing as he deleted it.

However, I do find it telling that the premise of your thread, namely that the US wants to starve Palestinians as opposed to preventing suicide bombers from entering Israel or preventing weapons from being smuggled into Gaza, has been proven bunk.

Just as were the Belgians and Dutch when they fought against their German occupiers. If a foreign force occupies your homeland you have every moral right to blow these foreigners up.

Who says it's the Arabs' land. How far back in history are you willing to go?

Who says it's the Arabs' land.if the ME is not the Arabs land.

then where is their Land? the Arabs did not choose to go on a Diaspora.

I choose to side with resistance groups in WW2, and today. Whether you like it or not.

That is assuming that that the Arabs are actually resisting an occupation. I choose to say they are not. Whether you like it or not.

That is assuming that that the Arabs are actually resisting an occupation. I choose to say they are not. Whether you like it or not.you are entitled to your opinion.

I think, what he means to say is "civilians lives and suffering are a not priority in War".
They are paid a lot of lipservice, but in reality they are only collateral in the mind of the generals.

well, if you take it in the context of the original quotation, it would actually mean they are not taken into account by the "resistance":rolleyes: or the Palestinian terrorists, to be more accurate.

well, if you take it in the context of the original quotation, it would actually mean they are not taken into account by the "resistance":rolleyes: or the Palestinian terrorists, to be more accurate.to be more accurate: I leave my statement exactly the way I wrote it.

That is assuming that that the Arabs are actually resisting an occupation. I choose to say they are not. Whether you like it or not.Your choice is flawed.

I guess thats what Zionism is all about. (Supporting killings instead of giving the land back)

Actually, it's just as realistic or effective a solution as the one you propose (simply give all the land "back")

I think he meant to take it back, seeing as he deleted it.

However, I do find it telling that the premise of your thread..The premise of my thread is "The US Gov supports Collective Punishment."




.

if the ME is not the Arabs land.

then where is their Land? the Arabs did not choose to go on a Diaspora.

Yes, they had other conquests, rapes and pillages to carry out. Such as that of Persia or Afghanistan.

I meant UB's original civilian quote (the one he deleted), I wasn't referring to any statement of yours.
My mistake.

if the ME is not the Arabs land. Then where is their Land?Yes, they had other conquests, rapes and pillages to carry out. Such as that of Persia or Afghanistan.:rolleyes: (that so much answer my simple question) Where is their Land if not the ME?

to be more accurate: I leave my statement exactly the way I wrote it.

I meant UB's original civilian quote (the one he deleted), I wasn't referring to any statement of yours.

The premise of my thread is "The US Gov supports Collective Punishment."




.And apparently, they had a good reason. Had the punishment been upheld without exceptions, then there would have been no suicide attacks. Unfortunately, the Palestinians proved the US and Israel right.

dp

Well, its not the state of Israel.

And perhpas they should leave Iran and Afghanistan.....oh no, they completely obliterated the original inhabitants, so there is no more problem now. This way they are not occupying land. Perhaps a solution Israel should adopt.....Iran and Afghanistan? Arabs actually constitute a major population in Iran and Afghanistan?

( :rolleyes:that so much answer my simple question) Where is their Land again?

Well, its not the state of Israel.

And perhaps they [the Arabs] should leave Iran and Afghanistan.....oh no, they completely obliterated the original inhabitants, so there is no more problem now. This way they are not occupying land. Perhaps a solution Israel should adopt.....

And apparently, they had a good reason. Had the punishment been upheld without exceptions, then there would have been no suicide attacks. "apparently" is apparently good enough for you to support Collective Punishment.

But its not good enough for me.

BTW I dont support Torture or Assassination either, no matter how many "apparently-s" do you bring to the table.

And perhaps they [the Arabs] should leave Iran and Afghanistan.....oh no, they completely obliterated the original inhabitants, so there is no more problem now. This way they are not occupying land. Perhaps a solution Israel should adopt.....WTF are you talking about?
.
Well, its not the state of Israel.That does not answer my question.

"apparently" is apparently good enough for you to support Collective Punishment.

But its not good enough for me. Sorry, I went by your thread title to see how low your standards were. Keeping the Palestinians from purchasing food would have had the effect that no suicide bombers would have made it to Egypt, so yeah, it was a pretty stupid title.

Unlike you, I don't value one ethnic groups lives over the other, so I would have preferred the suicide bombers not to get through.

BTW I dont support Torture or Assassination either, no matter how many "apparently-s" do you bring to the table.No, it's called "freedom fighting" in your book.

Unlike you, I don't value one ethnic groups lives over the other..I think they are almost the same ethnic group.. fighting each other, Semite Israelis VS Semite Arabs. (and if they where not the same ethnic background, I would still value their lives equally)
.
No, it's called "freedom fighting" in your book.Mybook says "Someones Terrorist is someone elses Freedom fighter" and I apply that statement to all sides equally.

For "someone" : IDF terrorism is "Freedom fighting".

I'm talking about the Arab Islamic conquests of Persia and Afghanistan. Or are they too far back in history to count?More like too few Arabs to count...

WTF are you talking about?

I'm talking about the Arab Islamic conquests of Persia and Afghanistan. Or are they too far back in history to count? The Palestinians have to accept that whatever the case, Israel is not under their land NOW. Accept it. Or face the consequences, and don't whine when you starve to death.

As to the answer to your question.....their land is everything except Israel, because this belongs to the State of Israel. Go long back in history, and if you want to ignore that, look back to the creation, or simply look at the situation now....it does not belong to the Arabs. As I said, accept it, or face the consequences.

Accept it. Or face the consequences, and don't whine when you starve to death.I see,

you are auditioning to be my next Nutritionist/ Diet counselor. :D :D

this land belongs to the State of Israel. Go long back in history, and if you want to ignore that, look back to the creation.I am looking back at the creation rite now, and I see nothing to prove your point, can you help us a bit here.

Iran and Afghanistan? Arabs actually constitute a major population in Iran and Afghanistan?I was referring to the Islamic conquests of Persia and Afghanistan, where the original inhabitants were forced to convert to Islam or killed.thats NOT what you said,.




here let me quote you again:
And perhaps they [the Arabs] should leave Iran and Afghanistan.....oh no, they completely obliterated the original inhabitants, so there is no more problem now. This way they are not occupying land. Perhaps a solution Israel should adopt.....

I am going to stop debating with you (Leemba), because you are clearly no worthed my time.

Iran and Afghanistan? Arabs actually constitute a major population in Iran and Afghanistan?

I was referring to the Islamic conquests of Persia and Afghanistan, where the original inhabitants were forced to convert to Islam or killed.

I see,

you are auditioning to be my next Nutritionist/ Diet counselor. :D :D

you don't see Native Americans, or Native Canadians, or Native Australians blowing up innocents, still squabbling about "their land". It is the land of the natives, these three, but there is simply no realistic way that things can EVER be reversed. Do they fire Qassam rockets at the general populace? Do they say that they will die trying to get their land back?

I was referring to the Islamic conquests of Persia and Afghanistan, where the original inhabitants were forced to convert to Islam or killed.Yeah, but that's a false analogy, seeing as that wouldn't constitute a territorial conquest at all. In fact, quite the opposite, seeing as the Mongols have been kicked out.

I meant annihilated as in completely annihilated the original peoples living there, their culture, their religion. To be certain, what the Arabs did, in the name of Islam, makes any Jewish "aggression" seem like a playdate.Are you sure about that? The Hebrews committed plenty of genocide back in their day...

The entire population there is Islamic because of the Arabs. It would be like the Israelis having taken over the entire ME, converting everyone to Judaism, and killing those who refused.No, it would be more akin to the Hebrews slaughtering every last man, woman, and child because Yahweh told them to, seeing as both things happend pretty far in the past.

thats NOT what you said,.




here let me quote you again:


I am going to stop debating with you (Leemba), because you are clearly no worthed my time.

I meant annihilated as in completely annihilated the original peoples living there, their culture, their religion. To be certain, what the Arabs did, in the name of Islam, makes any Jewish "aggression" seem like a playdate.

I am looking back at the creation rite now, and I see nothing to prove your point, can you help us a bit here.

can I borrow this time machine of yours. :p

More like too few Arabs to count...

The entire population there is Islamic because of the Arabs. It would be like the Israelis having taken over the entire ME, converting everyone to Judaism, and killing those who refused.

Are you sure about that? The Hebrews committed plenty of genocide back in their day...

Yes, I am.


But, my whole point was that you cannot talk about original claims to land, because this could be a cause of war in several places, but isn't, because people have actually gotten over it. Why can't the Palestinians do the same?

No, it would be more akin to the Hebrews slaughtering every last man, woman, and child because Yahweh told them to, seeing as both things happend pretty far in the past.

Okay, then it would be like the Arabs slaughtering men, women, and children in current day Sudan. Current enough for you?;)

So, it turns out that the Palestinians shouldn't have been let through to buy food, because, so far, at least two of them have taken the opportunity and proven that keeping everyone else penned in was a good idea:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7225775.stm

Just saw it. Bugger. Now how is Israel going to respond to this?

both sides are terrorist, the only difference is that the Palestinians are the resistance, they are resisting occupation .

to be a true resistance fighter, you go after military and government facilities and NOT INNOCENT CIVILIANS!!!

Just as were the Belgians and Dutch when they fought against their German occupiers. If a foreign force occupies your homeland you have every moral right to blow these foreigners up.

Soldiers yes. Civilians no!

I choose to side with resistance groups in WW2, and today. Whether you like it or not.

So you support terrorists who blow up civilians who have nothing to do with the conflict?

if the ME is not the Arabs land.

then where is their Land? the Arabs did not choose to go on a Diaspora.

Um OD? The Jews were forced to leave. They did not do so willingly.

And apparently, they had a good reason. Had the punishment been upheld without exceptions, then there would have been no suicide attacks. Unfortunately, the Palestinians proved the US and Israel right.

As usual unfortunately.

I think they are almost the same ethnic group.. fighting each other, Semite Israelis VS Semite Arabs. (and if they where not the same ethnic background, I would still value their lives equally)

Yea right. That's why you support Palestinian Suicide Bombers that blow up innocent civilians.

Mybook says "Someones Terrorist is someone elses Freedom fighter" and I apply that statement to all sides equally.

Bullshit.

So you support terrorists who blow up civilians who have nothing to do with the conflict?Someones terrorist is someone elses freedom fighter.

Someones terrorist is someone elses freedom fighter.

That quote really means jackshit when the fact of the matter is that intentionally blowing up civilians is terrorism no matter how you try to spin it.

...blowing up civilians is terrorism ...someones terrorist is someone elses freedom fighter
.

someones terrorist is someone elses freedom fighter
.

"Freedom Fighters" do not go around blowing up innocent men, women, and children.

do not blow up innocent men, women, and children.the IDF?
Iraqi Insurgents?
Lebanese Insurgents?
the US army?
AQ when they were on our side?

the IDF?

Not freedom fighters

the US army?

Not freedom fighters

AQ when they were on our side?

Terrorists who blow up innocent men, women, and children. Just precisely what freedom are they fighting for? They are not fighting for freedom of anyone.

Iraqi Insurgents?

If they are blowing up innocent men, women, and children on purpose then they are a terrorist organization that needs to be rooted out.

Lebanese Insurgents?

Hezbollah who fired katushia rockets into Israeli population centers on purpose who were not fighting for their freedom as Israel has not been inside Lebanon for 6 years prior to Hezbollah sparking the last skirmish.

So tell me, what was Hezbollah fighting for when Israel was NOT occupying any part of Lebanon?

Israel = Not freedom fightersfor some people they are "the good guys"
US army = Not freedom fightersfor some people they are "the good guys"
.
(AQ)Terrorists who...they are Not the good guys either, buy Ronald Reagan and people like him calling them "the good guys" when they were using terror against the Soviets.

the IDF?
Iraqi Insurgents?
Lebanese Insurgents?
the US army?
AQ

If they are blowing up innocent men, women, and children on purpose...They are all blowing up innocent families. I dont give a rats ass if they say "sorry we bombed you marriage, we were trying to kill someone not far from you".

I despise that "sorry but you were born in the wrong Country" talk.
We are all collateral for them.

True but under International Law when a building is being used for military purposes, it does become a legit target to hit.

Don't be blinded by that fact. Even if there was a military presence in the building, one could ask if the Geneva convention applied since the perpretators were irregular forces, since there was no state of war, etc.

And regardless of that fact, it wouldn't rule out that it was a terrorist act (as is apparent by the fact that the majority of the casualties were not military) nor that the attack was an unproportional act - and thus illegal under international law.

Hezbollah who fired katushia rockets into Israeli population centers on purpose who were not fighting for their freedom as Israel has not been inside Lebanon for 6 years prior to Hezbollah sparking the last skirmish.

So tell me, what was Hezbollah fighting for when Israel was NOT occupying any part of Lebanon?

Their fellow arabs for one (Palestinians) and 2 any place israel bombs is a population center, as for the Israeli PC's do they not have reservists in those centers? making it military buildings? not attempting flame bait just asking.
i see wrong in all the sides so chilax

Don't be blinded by that fact. Even if there was a military presence in the building, one could ask if the Geneva convention applied since the perpretators were irregular forces, since there was no state of war, etc.

Very valid point. And a good one to. This is something that could be discussed in more detail. I feel this worthy of debate :)

And regardless of that fact, it wouldn't rule out that it was a terrorist act (as is apparent by the fact that the majority of the casualties were not military) nor that the attack was an unproportional act - and thus illegal under international law.

As I pointed out above, it would make for an interesting discussion for I can honestly see the point that you are making.

Their fellow arabs for one (Palestinians) and 2 any place israel bombs is a population center, as for the Israeli PC's do they not have reservists in those centers? making it military buildings? not attempting flame bait just asking.

The difference is however is that the buildings being bombed by suicide bombers were purely civilian buildings and not being used by the IDF as strong points for military operations.

i see wrong in all the sides so chilax

Agreed that all sides are in the wrong.

Very valid point. And a good one to. This is something that could be discussed in more detail. I feel this worthy of debate :)



As I pointed out above, it would make for an interesting discussion for I can honestly see the point that you are making.
It's absolutely debatable, because it's not a somewhat shaky poition - though I feel it's the right position to hold, of course :p

Well, it would be more interesting than how this thread has turned out. And, let's face it, that's not surprising considering ;)

Someones terrorist is someone elses freedom fighter.

That's like saying someone's daughters rapist is a paedophiles hero. You can't just use that phrase without using some kind of moral judgement. Any human being would say intentionally targeting civilians is criminal. The "freedom fighters" often intentionally target civilians when military targets are not reachable, or are too difficult to defeat. They say, "the Israelis have tanks, what do we have?" I guess that means its okay to grab a target you can reach then, in the mind of a Palestinian "freedom fighter".

I forgot, 7.2 milllion Israelis should just pack up and move to that wonderful secret place under the sea. :rolleyes:

"Freedom Fighters" do not go around blowing up innocent men, women, and children.

Erm, yeh they do.

IRB?
FLN?
ANC?
Lehi?
Irgun?

Edit: Not that I'm stating I agree or disagree with any of the above groups, their causes or their actions.

Erm, yeh they do.

IRB?
FLN?
ANC?
Lehi?
Irgun?

Edit: Not that I'm stating I agree or disagree with any of the above groups, their causes or their actions.

ANY GROUP that is unconventional that targets civilians on purpose are not freedom fighters.

I forgot, 7.2 milllion Israelis should just pack up and move to that wonderful secret place under the sea. that's not the worst of ideas

ANY GROUP that is unconventional that targets civilians on purpose are not freedom fighters.that is your definition, and with you being a Historian, I guess we have no choice but to accept it :D

that is your definition, and with you being a Historian, I guess we have no choice but to accept it :D

Um yea...this has nothing to do with degrees. :rolleyes:

Now do you care to refute what I just said or are you going to be obtuse like usual?

The difference is however is that the buildings being bombed by suicide bombers were purely civilian buildings and not being used by the IDF as strong points for military operations.


given enough time anything can be used as a military strong point, making it somewhat blurry when you decide what is acceptable or not, I think the americans call it pre-emptive strike?

Um yea...this has nothing to do with degrees. :rolleyes:

Now do you care to refute what I just said or are you going to be obtuse like usual? but its Fun to be obtuse *pouts*

given enough time anything can be used as a military strong point, making it somewhat blurry when you decide what is acceptable or not, I think the americans call it pre-emptive strike?

AH but the term pre-emptive strike is used primarily for attacking another nation before they attack you. That is what Israel did in the Six Day War.

I forgot, 7.2 milllion Israelis should just pack up and move to that wonderful secret place under the sea. :rolleyes:
:p
what does atlantis have to do with this?
Damn Time warp!

Should we send the Palestinians some pudding?

Now do you care to refute what I just said..I just did.
What part of "Your opinion is just as good as anyones" dont you understand?

ANY GROUP that is unconventional that targets civilians on purpose are not freedom fighters.

History disagrees with you. Deal with it.

I just did.
What part of "Your opinion is just as good.." dont you understand?

That actually refutes nothing as I presented the fact that any unconventional group that kills civilians on purpose is a terrorist. Notice I said unconventional group. That includes Hamas, Fatah, Al Aqsa Martyers Brigade, and Hezbollah. I know that someone here mentioned some Israeli groups and I include them in that list to if they blew up civilians on purpose as well. WOW!!!

History disagrees with you. Deal with it.

Actually...History does not disagree nor agree with any of this discussion in reality.

Actually...History does not disagree nor agree with any of this discussion in reality.

Strange then that most of (if not all) the groups I listed played key roles in their respective countries obtaining freedom.

Groups that fight and obtain freedom would be called 'freedom fighters'.

Terrorists if you will, but freedom fighters is still an applicable and accurate term.

Strange then that most of (if not all) the groups I listed played key roles in their respective countries obtaining freedom.

That maybe but if you noticed my phrasing, any group that attacks civilians on purpose are not freedom fighters under the definition of terrorism. Notice I said nothing about the roles they played. I know full well they did play key roles but the fact remains that they were terrorists. I mean...even the Sons of Liberty was basicly a terrorist organization.

Groups that fight and obtain freedom would be called 'freedom fighters'.

Even if they are terrorists?

Terrorists if you will, but freedom fighters is still an applicable and accurate term.

Not to me and not to the definition of the word. I guess it is a matter of perspective. :)

Even if they are terrorists?

Yep.


Not to me and not to the definition of the word. I guess it is a matter of perspective. :)

Definition of "freedom fighter"

freedom fighter
n. One engaged in armed rebellion or resistance against an oppressive government.

Yep.



Definition of "freedom fighter"

Government being the key word. Last time I checked, civilians do not include being in government. Government buildings and military outposts are all fine to hit but once you move into hitting civilians on purpose when they have nothing to do with the "oppressive" government (and yes it is in quotes for what defines an oppressive government (but that's a different debate))...

not freedom fighters under the definition of terrorism.that is what you typed.














This is reality:
.
not freedom fighters under my definition of terrorism.

Government being the key word. Last time I checked, civilians do not include being in government.
Yeh they do. Sad to say but anything that contributes to the government functioning, can be seen as a legitimate target by people.

Civil servants, power plants, water and sewerage facilities. You mightn't agree with it, but doesn't mean their actions can be easily waved away as illegitimate.


Government buildings and military outposts are all fine to hit but once you move into hitting civilians on purpose
A civil servant is a civilian, but works for the government.

when they have nothing to do with the "oppressive" government (and yes it is in quotes for what defines an oppressive government (but that's a different debate))...
At the time of all those groups (the ones I listed) the governments were indeed oppressive to the people they represented.

Yeh they do. Sad to say but anything that contributes to the government functioning, can be seen as a legitimate target by people.

Civil servants, power plants, water and sewerage facilities. You mightn't agree with it, but doesn't mean their actions can be easily waved away as illegitimate.

Ah..but I said civilians.

A civil servant is a civilian, but works for the government.

No shit sherlock. :D

Ah..but I said civilians.


Wait... a guy who works for a power plant isn't a civilian? :confused:

No shit sherlock. :D

:p

Wait... a guy who works for a power plant isn't a civilian? :confused:

I was focusing on power plants. They are obviously legitament targets to hit.

:p

See we do agree on something :)

both sides are terrorist, the only difference is that the Palestinians are the resistance, they are resisting occupation .
Nothing that they do can be dignified with the name "resisting": none of their actions serve in any way to lessen Israelis' ability to do harm to Palestinians, or to lessen Israelis' willingness to do harm to Palestinians. Nothing that they do advanced the cause of their "liberation" in any way, quite the opposite in fact.

Nothing that they do can be dignified with the name "resisting".Someones Terrorist is someone elses resistance.

Apparently they cannot bake traditional Arab bread with adding a sprinkle of Jewish blood. They have feet like hooves and vestigal tails and horns too....

Don't give me this kind of crap. I am old enough to remember the spring of 1967, before the "occupation" of the territories. The Arabs were launching rockets down on Israeli farms every day, and filling the airwaves with their predictions that they would annihilate the Jews soon; then Egypt kicked out the UN troops from the Sinai, and began blockading international waters. When the evening news mentioned the Egyptians firing warning shots at Iranian tankers off Sharm al-Sheikh (Iran was Israel's only fuel supplier then-- how odd that sounds now!), I asked my mom "Does this mean there will be a war soon?" and she replies, "It means there is a war already."
Arabs now like to pretend that Israel started that war, just out of the blue, and for no reason at all.

Someones Terrorist is someone elses resistance.
No: "resisting" has a meaning. The Resistance in Nazi-occupied Europe actually fought against the Nazi war-machine, and did it damage; that is what "resisting" means. Blowing up random German women, or whatever, would not have been dignified by the word "resisting".

No: "resisting" has a meaning. terrorism has a meaning too. all these buzzwords have a meaning.

it means something for you, and it may have a different meaning for others.
Someones terrorist is someone elses resistance.

your have your own definition of terrorism. Do not try it to impose it upon me.

your have your own definition of terrorism. Do not try it to impose it upon me.

*imposes Tmutarakhan's definition of terrorism on OD ;)

Don't give me this kind of crap. I am old enough to remember the spring of 1967, before the "occupation" of the territories. The Arabs were launching rockets down on Israeli farms every day, and filling the airwaves with their predictions that they would annihilate the Jews soon; then Egypt kicked out the UN troops from the Sinai, and began blockading international waters. When the evening news mentioned the Egyptians firing warning shots at Iranian tankers off Sharm al-Sheikh (Iran was Israel's only fuel supplier then-- how odd that sounds now!), I asked my mom "Does this mean there will be a war soon?" and she replies, "It means there is a war already."
Arabs now like to pretend that Israel started that war, just out of the blue, and for no reason at all.

And of course the Arab nations of the Middle East behaving like assholes in the past completely justifies Israel treating Palestinians with no real nation of their own like their own private little kaffir underclass, going far as to decry the similar tactics they themselves used against the British.

This is the same mentality that justified the Coke-Snorting Chimp's One-Upsmanship Trip into Iraq with the 9/11 attacks.

:rolleyes:

And of course the Arab nations of the Middle East behaving like assholes in the past completely justifies....
WTF? Nodinia told me that the violence is caused by the occupation, and I told Nodinia that I remember the violence back before the occupation. Nodinia then went off on how I must be full of racist stereotypes about the Arabs if I actually believe they were calling for the extermination of the Jews before the occupation: no, it is just that I remember those days. Many people are still alive who remember it too.
I was not making any argument about the past justifying the present; I was correcting Nodinia's erroneous statements about the past.
Tell me one reason why any Palestinian Arab should have given up his home and livelihood to immigrating foreigners...
So, if blacks move into my neighborhood, your advice is that firebombing them out of their houses and knifing their children on the way to school would be a better course of action than moving? Of course, staying put and living in peace with the newcomers would be out of the question, since large numbers of "those people" are going to moving in... (A more precise analogy would be if it was Chippewas moving back into the neighborhood after a long absence.)

Israel isn't even a country, it's basically a giant military barracks dumped on Arab land as a pawn of US geostrategic imperialism, and as a base for ethnic-nationalist Zionists to raid and pilfer from the Palestinian people, bulldoze their homes, build colonies, murder and terrorize them.

Israel isn't even a country, it's basically a giant military barracks dumped on Arab land as a pawn of US geostrategic imperialism, and as a base for ethnic-nationalist Zionists to raid and pilfer from the Palestinian people, bulldoze their homes, build colonies, murder and terrorize them.

The Israelis actually grow food, and manufacture goods. The Palestinians will at some point have to stop living on charity and likewise engage in economically productive activity, rather than contributing nothing to the world but inventive methods of destruction, if they ever want to be an independent nation.

The Israelis actually grow food, and manufacture goods. The Palestinians will at some point have to stop living on charity and likewise engage in economically productive activity, rather than contributing nothing to the world but inventive methods of destruction, if they ever want to be an independent nation.

Right, and I suppose Hamas blowing open holes in the Egypt/Gaza border so Palestinians could rush in to buy necessary supplies is proof that Israel isn't blockading them and they're just being lazy jihadis.

:rolleyes:

Right, and I suppose Hamas blowing open holes in the Egypt/Gaza border so Palestinians could rush in to buy necessary supplies is proof that Israel isn't blockading them and they're just being lazy jihadis.

:rolleyes:

Hmmm, there's an idea. A bit crazy, but the region is filled with crazies to begin with. Slap both factions on new bits of undeveloped territories, and make Jerusalem the prize. Whoever can get the best GDP in 30 years wins. Any damage caused to the other nation will have the culprits GDP calculated with penalty reductions in line with damage caused.

Of course it's not really workable unless you get the producers of "Who wants to be a millionaire" to show up with a massive armed force and the promise of TV ratings.

Hmmm, there's an idea. A bit crazy, but the region is filled with crazies to begin with. Slap both factions on new bits of undeveloped territories, and make Jerusalem the prize. Whoever can get the best GDP in 30 years wins. Any damage caused to the other nation will have the culprits GDP calculated with penalty reductions in line with damage caused.

Of course it's not really workable unless you get the producers of "Who wants to be a millionaire" to show up with a massive armed force and the promise of TV ratings.

It's SimNation: The Game Show.

Absolutely brilliant.

Don't give me this kind of crap. I am old enough to remember the spring of 1967, before the "occupation" of the territories. The Arabs were launching rockets down on Israeli farms every day, and filling the airwaves with their predictions that they would annihilate the Jews soon; then Egypt kicked out the UN troops from the Sinai, and began blockading international waters. When the evening news mentioned the Egyptians firing warning shots at Iranian tankers off Sharm al-Sheikh (Iran was Israel's only fuel supplier then-- how odd that sounds now!), I asked my mom "Does this mean there will be a war soon?" and she replies, "It means there is a war already."
Arabs now like to pretend that Israel started that war, just out of the blue, and for no reason at all.

i read on that, something about the eqyptians only wanting to remove a portion of the UN troops, but the UN for some reason removed all of them?

AH but the term pre-emptive strike is used primarily for attacking another nation before they attack you. That is what Israel did in the Six Day War.

then this is a pre-pre-pre emptive strike ! :p

That actually refutes nothing as I presented the fact that any unconventional group that kills civilians on purpose is a terrorist. Notice I said unconventional group. That includes Hamas, Fatah, Al Aqsa Martyers Brigade, and Hezbollah. I know that someone here mentioned some Israeli groups and I include them in that list to if they blew up civilians on purpose as well. WOW!!!

what about conventional group

Right, and I suppose Hamas blowing open holes in the Egypt/Gaza border so Palestinians could rush in to buy necessary supplies is proof that Israel isn't blockading them and they're just being lazy jihadis.
Israel has no obligation to send them charity, or to be a conduit for other people's charity, or to trade with them. Trade requires mutual trust. You will notice that the Egyptians do not trust them much either.

The Palestinians have a couple of options. They can be their own nation, cut off from all the world as if they were on another planet: but then their population will have to shrink tragically, to what they can support by North-Korean-style self-reliance-- but they could be supporting themselves better, it is reasonably productive land as the Israelis have shown.

Or, they could support more population, and at a better standard of living, if they traded with their neighbors. There used to be some foreign investment in Gaza, but once the Israelis left, masked gunmen from Fatah and Hamas extorted money until all those businesses shut down. And lots of Gazans used to work in Israel, or export produce to or through Israel, until the collective decision was taken to shoot at their neighbors instead of trading with them.

The Palestinians have preferred option three, to have lots of children that they have no means of supporting, and rely on the rest of the world to feed them. This cannot go on.

i read on that, something about the eqyptians only wanting to remove a portion of the UN troops, but the UN for some reason removed all of them?
Egypt wanted the UN to unblock their invasion routes, and still leave some troops there to get shot at by all sides; the blue helmets declined.

Corneliu 'terrorist' is nothing but a right-wing buzzword, all that matters is the circumstances and the situation of the Palestinian people, and the measures they must take to reclaim their nation from Zionist imperialism.

Israel has no obligation to send them charity, or to be a conduit for other people's charity, or to trade with them. Trade requires mutual trust. You will notice that the Egyptians do not trust them much either.

Charity? The Palestinians wanted to purchase those supplies, not get them as handouts. Israel has been constantly blockading them, leaving the populace unable to work, sell produce, get proper medical care, or purchase basic necessities. The fact that the Egyptians stopped trying to seal the gaps for the moment is indicative that they realize it is a humanitarian issue as well.

The Palestinians have a couple of options. They can be their own nation, cut off from all the world as if they were on another planet: but then their population will have to shrink tragically, to what they can support by North-Korean-style self-reliance-- but they could be supporting themselves better, it is reasonably productive land as the Israelis have shown.

Which of course ignores the frequent strikes from Israel, not to mention the forementioned blockades which prevent the acquisition of materials necessary to even begin a process towards being self-sustaining.

Or, they could support more population, and at a better standard of living, if they traded with their neighbors. There used to be some foreign investment in Gaza, but once the Israelis left, masked gunmen from Fatah and Hamas extorted money until all those businesses shut down. And lots of Gazans used to work in Israel, or export produce to or through Israel, until the collective decision was taken to shoot at their neighbors instead of trading with them.

Collective decision? There you go claiming that the Palestinians are a Hamas Hivemind, when you keep ignoring the 44% who voted for Fatah and Abas. Makes it easy to justify collective punishment when you think they're all alike huh?

The Palestinians have preferred option three, to have lots of children that they have no means of supporting, and rely on the rest of the world to feed them. This cannot go on.

So basically you're blaming the Palestinians for the Israelis reducing them to a kaffir class, and then on top of that saying that they ought to be thankful they're kaffirs to the Israelis. And that you think they should stop reproducing and go extinct.

Brilliant. Just brilliant.

but they could be supporting themselves better, it is reasonably productive land as the Israelis have shown.


As I understand it, although I could be wrong, Israel controls most of the major water supplies that Palestine uses. Productive land is kind of useless without water isn't it? At best, it leaves Palestine dependent on Israel just to survive unless those water supplies are guaranteed as free flowing resources for both sides. Which of course, will never be the case with this bunch of blockheads in charge on both sides.

Charity? The Palestinians wanted to purchase those supplies, not get them as handouts. Israel has been constantly blockading them, leaving the populace unable to work, sell produce, get proper medical care, or purchase basic necessities. The fact that the Egyptians stopped trying to seal the gaps for the moment is indicative that they realize it is a humanitarian issue as well..
Israel has NO OBLIGATION to trade with them. No nation has any obligation to trade with any other. Trade depends on mutual trust. Britain did not trade with Germany in the early 40's, for a similar reason.
And much of the food that goes into Palestine is from the UN Relief Works Agency, handed out as pure "dole": this is how they have managed to keep expanding their population.
If Egypt wants to trade with Gaza, or serve as a conduit for charity, that should be up to them: I regard the Bush administration statements that they should not do so as a stupidity (what else can we expect from Bush?). But Egypt has never wanted the responsibility (pre-1967, Jordan granted citizenship where it was the occupying power; but Egypt would not), and still does not.
Collective decision? There you go claiming that the Palestinians are a Hamas Hivemind, when you keep ignoring the 44% who voted for Fatah and Abas.
Fatah are the ones who committed the murder in Dimona the other day, which the Gazans are celebrating. Can you imagine that, *celebrating* that one of your own has murdered a woman? "Hivemind" is too kind a word for it.
As I understand it, although I could be wrong, Israel controls most of the major water supplies that Palestine uses.
Israelis have BUILT irrigation works. Yasser Arafat first came to prominence, in 1964, by BLOWING UP irrigation works. Palestinians could build irrigation works also.

Israelis have BUILT irrigation works. Yasser Arafat first came to prominence, in 1964, by BLOWING UP irrigation works. Palestinians could build irrigation works also.

Red herring. Irrigation works are pointless if you can't get your irrigation to the source of the water to begin with.

Um OD? The Jews were forced to leave. They did not do so willingly.

Very true. The day we can say the same about the Palesinians in 1948 and 1967 without going through the usual denials and counter-claims, I will be able to say we've made progress.

"Freedom Fighters" do not go around blowing up innocent men, women, and children..

Actually they do, on occassion. But if they win, thats all forgiven. Eg Israel, Ireland (more shooting than blowing up, in the original 1919-21 struggle), South Africa,various WWII resistance movements.....T'ain't pretty....


Should we send the Palestinians some pudding?..

I see merit in your suggestion, but be advised that you will be labelled a "terrorist sympathiser" for doing so.


Nothing that they do can be dignified with the name "resisting": ..

Attacking settlements, IDF troops...I'd say that counts allright.

Don't give me(.....) at all...

...none of which justifies the occupation, thanks bunches.

WTF? Nodinia told me (.....)the past.

The majority of the violence is now caused by the occupation. Another way of looking at it is that the occupation justifies the violence/is used to justify the violence. Were this a neighbouring state that occassionally acted the mickey and Israel bombed accordingly, there'd be far less notice taken of it.

The Israelis actually grow food, and manufacture goods. The Palestinians will at some point have to stop living on charity and likewise engage in economically productive activity, rather than contributing nothing to the world but inventive methods of destruction, if they ever want to be an independent nation.

Ahhh, yes, the "lazy Arab" stereotype. normally this one gets trotted out before the "Arabs Feed on Jewish Blood" one, but what the hell, its your nonsense, please yourself.....


Fatah are the ones who committed the murder in Dimona the other day, which the Gazans are celebrating. Can you imagine that, *celebrating* that one of your own has murdered a woman? .

I refer you to my earlier post re Irgun and Lehi ribbons, and the celebration of the King David Hotel bombing.......

Israel has NO OBLIGATION to trade with them. No nation has any obligation to trade with any other. Trade depends on mutual trust. Britain did not trade with Germany in the early 40's, for a similar reason.
And much of the food that goes into Palestine is from the UN Relief Works Agency, handed out as pure "dole": this is how they have managed to keep expanding their population.
If Egypt wants to trade with Gaza, or serve as a conduit for charity, that should be up to them: I regard the Bush administration statements that they should not do so as a stupidity (what else can we expect from Bush?). But Egypt has never wanted the responsibility (pre-1967, Jordan granted citizenship where it was the occupying power; but Egypt would not), and still does not.

If Israel not only does nothing to allow the Palestinians to elevate past the point where they no longer have to rely on handouts and social services from their extremist elements- but also actively hinders and undermines such efforts, then it has no moral grounds or right to bitch about the Palestinians falling under the sway of said extremists and behaving accordingly. Not unless they enjoy such things as justifications for having a kaffir class shooting gallery in their own backyard.

Fatah are the ones who committed the murder in Dimona the other day, which the Gazans are celebrating. Can you imagine that, *celebrating* that one of your own has murdered a woman? "Hivemind" is too kind a word for it.

And as has been pointed out, you are deafeningly silent when it comes to Israelis celebrating the King David Hotel bombing. And the truth comes out from you with that bolded text. You're a Kimchiteer who probably has wet dreams about all Muslims dying off and going extinct.

Israelis have BUILT irrigation works. Yasser Arafat first came to prominence, in 1964, by BLOWING UP irrigation works. Palestinians could build irrigation works also.

And as has been pointed out, irrigation works are expensive pieces of shit without a proper water source. Which conveniently happens to be on the Israeli side of the blockades and borders.

The Israelis actually grow food, and manufacture goods. The Palestinians will at some point have to stop living on charity and likewise engage in economically productive activity, rather than contributing nothing to the world but inventive methods of destruction, if they ever want to be an independent nation.Well, since Israel has taken all the valuable land from the Palestinian Arabs, it's not particularly surprising that they grow food while the Palestinians don't. The Palestinians are only left with the sandy hills of Samaria with no sufficient water supply and no infrastructure under their control. Still 80% of the West Bank's water supply is used by Israelis instead of Palestinians. The "economically productive activity" of Israel is built on their exploitation of Palestinian resources. So STFU.

Don't give me this kind of crap. I am old enough to remember the spring of 1967, before the "occupation" of the territories. The Arabs were launching rockets down on Israeli farms every day, and filling the airwaves with their predictions that they would annihilate the Jews soon; then Egypt kicked out the UN troops from the Sinai, and began blockading international waters. When the evening news mentioned the Egyptians firing warning shots at Iranian tankers off Sharm al-Sheikh (Iran was Israel's only fuel supplier then-- how odd that sounds now!), I asked my mom "Does this mean there will be a war soon?" and she replies, "It means there is a war already."
Arabs now like to pretend that Israel started that war, just out of the blue, and for no reason at all.Jews started that war 60 years prior, right after Herzl published his "Judenstaat". The Balfour declaration (and its consequences) and the UN division of Palestine only intensified that war. The war in Palestine is one between the Arabs who have lived there for the last 2 millennia and the Jews who have immigrated there in the 20th century because of a retarded faith/ideology and because they didn't get along with their host nations, just as they never could.

Israel isn't even a country, it's basically a giant military barracks dumped on Arab land as a pawn of US geostrategic imperialism, and as a base for ethnic-nationalist Zionists to raid and pilfer from the Palestinian people, bulldoze their homes, build colonies, murder and terrorize them.

Gotta love racism :rolleyes:

what about conventional group

Such as?

Corneliu 'terrorist' is nothing but a right-wing buzzword, all that matters is the circumstances and the situation of the Palestinian people, and the measures they must take to reclaim their nation from Zionist imperialism.

Use proper punctuation!

Actually they do, on occassion. But if they win, thats all forgiven.

Unfortunately true and it should not be that way.

because of a retarded faith/ideology and because they didn't get along with their host nations, just as they never could.

WOW!!! Just WOW!!! You realize that the Jews got along quite well with others in Germany I hope prior to Hitler coming to power! Its not so much them getting along in their "host" nations but the religious persecution of the Jews in their "host" nation forced several of them to immigrate to what is now Israel.

Use proper punctuation!grammar Nazi. :p

Fatah are the ones who committed the murder in Dimona the other day, which the Gazans are celebrating. Can you imagine that, *celebrating* that one of your own has murdered a woman? "Hivemind" is too kind a word for it.

And here's a little Reality Check for you:

Hamas claims Dimona attack, says bombers came from Hebron (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/951028.html)

Where did you pull this notion out of your ass that Fatah was the group responsible for the suicide bombing? My assertion that you're a Kimchiteer who gets excited at the prospect of Muslim Extinction still stands and is bolstered by this.

And here's a little Reality Check for you:

Hamas claims Dimona attack, says bombers came from Hebron (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/951028.html)

Where did you pull this notion out of your ass that Fatah was the group responsible for the suicide bombing? My assertion that you're a Kimchiteer who gets excited at the prospect of Muslim Extinction still stands and is bolstered by this.

And people wonder why I call Hamas a terrorist organization :rolleyes:

And people wonder why I call Hamas a terrorist organization :rolleyes:

I don't think many people disagree with you. Simply they expand on that point and say they also have a political wing - much like Sinn Fein/IRA, Herri Batasuna/ETA

I don't think many people disagree with you. Simply they expand on that point and say they also have a political wing - much like Sinn Fein/IRA, Herri Batasuna/ETA

Maybe but the political wing of Hamas does nothing to curtail the militant wing of Hamas.

If Israel not only does nothing to allow the Palestinians to elevate past the point where they no longer have to rely on handouts
It is up to the Palestinians to elevate themselves; nobody is stopping them but themselves. Israel used to admit many workers, to import from Gaza, and to serve as a conduit for exports to elsewhere, and encouraged rather than prevented foreign investment to industrialize Gaza. It is the Palestinians who have decided they would rather shoot at their neighbors than trade with them.
And as has been pointed out, you are deafeningly silent when it comes to Israelis celebrating the King David Hotel bombing.
I was not part of that conversation at all. I condemn that, as did Ben-Gurion and the majority of Israelis at the time, and the majority of Israelis now. Where are the Palestinians condemning their own mad bombers?
And the truth comes out from you with that bolded text. You're a Kimchiteer who probably has wet dreams about all Muslims dying off and going extinct.
I have no idea what the word "Kimchiteer" means (I do enjoy kimchi, which is a Korean pickled cabbage hotly spiced). I stand by the bolded text (""Hivemind" is too kind a word for it"): you ask, "Where did you pull this notion out of your ass that Fatah was the group responsible for the suicide bombing?" Simple: the first claim of responsibility (and the ONLY claim outstanding as of the time when I posted) was by Al Aqsa Brigade, the armed wing of Fatah; since then not only Hamas but also the Popular Front have wanted the "credit", and no doubt we will hear from Islamic Jihad before long. Every segment of Palestinian society rushes to claim themselves to be the murderers.
And as has been pointed out, irrigation works are expensive pieces of shit without a proper water source. Which conveniently happens to be on the Israeli side of the blockades and borders.
The water table in the Negev is lower than in Gaza. Gaza ought to be more productive than the Negev, but it isn't; it certainly shouldn't be importing water from the Negev. As in Kansas and Nebraska, once called the "Great American Desert" but now the most productive land per acre on the planet, water is where you look for it.
By the way, United Beleriand, the "sandy hills of Samaria" are where more rain falls than anywhere else in Israel/Palestine. And does your death penalty for immigration apply to Mexicans, or is that only for Jews?

Maybe but the political wing of Hamas does nothing to curtail the militant wing of Hamas.

Neither did the political wing of the IRA, ETA or the ANC until such time as it was expedient to do so.


I condemn that, as did Ben-Gurion and the majority of Israelis at the time, and the majority of Israelis now. .

If the majority of Israels condemned that kind of thing, Netanyahu wouldn't be turning up at a commemeration, nor would the state be issuing ribbons for veterans of the Irgun and Lehi. They see it as a justified act amongst other justified acts (some far more brutal) in a liberation struggle. Their problem is in accepting that ,in many ways as the Arabs are now, they once were.


water is where you look for it..

O theres no need to look for it. Its getting it without being shot thats the problem.....

Israel 's water policy in the Occupied Territories has benefited Israel in two primary ways:

Preservation of the unequal division of the shared groundwater in the West Bank 's Western Aquifer and Northern Aquifer. This division was created prior to the occupation, a result of the gap between economic and technological development in Israel as opposed to the West Bank . However, the gap would have likely diminished had Israel not prevented it.


Utilization of new water sources, to which Israel had no access prior to 1967, such as the Eastern Aquifer (in the West Bank ) and the Gaza Aquifer, primarily to benefit Israeli settlements established in those areas.
http://www.btselem.org/english/Water/Shared_Sources.asp

No Israeli settlements in Gaza are using the Gaza Aquifer anymore. The irrigation systems which they built in Gaza were destroyed (the Palestinians decided that; Israel wanted to leave them).

No Israeli settlements in Gaza are using the Gaza Aquifer anymore. The irrigation systems which they built in Gaza were destroyed (the Palestinians decided that; Israel wanted to leave them).

You seem to be under the illusion that the "Gaza Aquifer" is accessible by gaza alone.....

I seem to remember that both Palestinian irrigation and horticulture was targeted during Raids under Sharons Govt........

Most recently, this years' Israeli invasion of Gaza (Operation Summer Rain, June 2006) has caused untold damage to water infrastructure, with destruction of the Gaza Electric Station affecting the operation of the majority of wells, pumping stations and sewage treatment facilities (CMWU, 2006).
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14434.htm



This position paper describes violations of the human right to water and sanitation in Gaza that have been caused or exacerbated by the sanctions and blockade in the period from January 2006 to the present.

The Centre on Housing Rights and Evictions (COHRE) is particularly concerned by the following denials of the human right to water and sanitation arising from the current Israeli occupation, blockade and international sanctions on the Gaza Strip:

- The collapse of basic service provision in the water and waste-water sectors

- Israel's denial of entry for essential materials required to operate and maintain water and sewage services

- The Israeli restrictions on the amount of fuel entering the Gaza Strip which has negatively impacted upon the operation of essential services

- The deteriorating health of Gazans as a result of declining water quality and the prevention of entry for water purification chemicals such as chlorine

- Israeli military incursions that have targeted water and sewage infrastructure

- Unaffordable increases in the price of water and sewage disposal

- The state of near collapse of waste-water treatment plants that is likely to unleash a widespread humanitarian and environmental catastrophe

- The reduction in the amount of water available for personal and domestic needs

- The abrupt and severe cut-off of financing for public works in the Gaza Strip as a political position of Western states, and the Quartet, which includes the United Nations, United States, European Union and Russia.
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/AMMF-7B5K32?OpenDocument


Source for the destruction of the systems post withdrawal?

You seem to be under the illusion that the "Gaza Aquifer" is accessible by gaza alone.....
No, I was correcting Beleriand and Gauthier, who were under the illusion that there is no aquifer accessible by Gaza at all.
Source for the destruction of the systems post withdrawal?
I will look for it, but the withdrawal was a long time ago now, and very old news links often die. As I recall (I have, of course, been known to be mistaken), Israel intended to leave all the housing intact, also, but the Palestinians preferred that the settlements be stripped bare and levelled, not wanting to deal with the fights and jealousies that might break out over the question of who would get them.

This is a failure of self-governance. You accuse me of thinking that Gazans' poverty is a result of "laziness": that's not really it, but there is a large factor of poor choices involved. Many Gazans used to work in Israel, and no doubt worked hard and were proud of earning a living rather than subsisting on the dole. Are the former workers resentful of the suicide bombers and rocket launchers for taking bread out of the mouths of their children? Or do they consider the "glorious resistance" to be worth the price? I don't know, but if they are resentful, they keep quiet about it. There used to be foreign investments in Gaza, but those got shut down too. Every government will demand protection money, errr I mean "taxes", but these businesses were getting hit from both Fatah and Hamas, with no certainty about how large the demands would be: that's death to investment.

The poverty in Gaza is not as extreme as has been portrayed: there are articles today on how the Gazans were surprised at the much deeper poverty of Al-Arish. The economy there could be improved, but this would require, as I say, wiser choices on the Palestinians' own part. Trade with your neighbors or shoot at them? Build irrigation or blow it up? Let investors make a profit or rip them off for the fast money? All of these choices should be obvious.

And people wonder why I call Hamas a terrorist organization :rolleyes:

Buzzword, again.

And people wonder why I call Hamas a terrorist organization :rolleyes:

I wonder why people accept that Hamas was behind it when there are three other organisations also claiming responsibility? The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the National Resistance Brigades (a group of former activists who consider Hamas too moderate!), and the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades.

And they might have come from Hebron, so the Gaza blocade might not have had anything to do with this directly.

No, I was correcting Beleriand and Gauthier, who were under the illusion that there is no aquifer accessible by Gaza at all.
.

Fair enough.


As I recall (I have, of course, been known to be mistaken), Israel intended to leave all the housing intact, also, but the Palestinians preferred that the settlements be stripped bare and levelled, not wanting to deal with the fights and jealousies that might break out over the question of who would get them.
.

That is entirely correct.


This is a failure of self-governance.(.............) Let investors make a profit or rip them off for the fast money? All of these choices should be obvious.

Its rather misleading to start with talking about a "failure of self governance" when they have only been something close to actually self governing for a year or two. Nor are they entirely the masters of their own destiny, given that Israel controls the borders.

As for the poverty being "exaggerated" it seems that every NGO and world body in the area is 'exaggerating' from the same hymn sheet.

I wonder why people accept that Hamas was behind it when there are three other organisations also claiming responsibility?
Israel apparently accepts the Hamas claim as the correct one, since their reprisal strike was against Hamas (6 dead; all uniformed members of Hamas militia so the "civilian" question does not arise; Hamas says they were killed while praying, but a witness said there was blood on the ground but none on the prayer-mat), and I would bet the Israelis have some intelligence sources.

Peculiar story from the Gaza withdrawal:
Looters strip Gaza greenhouses (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863)
Apparently some charitably-minded Jews purchased some of the Gaza settlers' irrigation works and donated them to the Palestinian Authority; the result was that everything was looted.

Israel apparently accepts the Hamas claim as the correct one, since their reprisal strike was against Hamas (6 dead; all uniformed members of Hamas militia so the "civilian" question does not arise; Hamas says they were killed while praying, but a witness said there was blood on the ground but none on the prayer-mat), and I would bet the Israelis have some intelligence sources.

...yet one of the men, Mussa Arafat, was a confirmed Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades member who had been imprisoned for two years previously, and Hamas is a bit unclear in the statement accepting responsibility.

Well, since Israel has taken all the valuable land from the Palestinian Arabs, it's not particularly surprising that they grow food while the Palestinians don't. The Palestinians are only left with the sandy hills of Samaria with no sufficient water supply and no infrastructure under their control. Still 80% of the West Bank's water supply is used by Israelis instead of Palestinians. The "economically productive activity" of Israel is built on their exploitation of Palestinian resources. So STFU.

really not true. the palestinians have the very fertile Jordan valley, can use it, do use it. thats why jericho is a really nice city, it gets all the riches from the jordan. though it does have to be said, that and tourism are probably 90% of the self-earned bit of the PA economy.

Peculiar story from the Gaza withdrawal:
Looters strip Gaza greenhouses (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863)
Apparently some charitably-minded Jews purchased some of the Gaza settlers' irrigation works and donated them to the Palestinian Authority; the result was that everything was looted.

Yes by some looters, as the PA fucked up the security arrangements.

And as there were indeed some looters in new orleans, we should blanket-condemn everyone who lived there and maybe have the place bulldozed to the ground (as the IDF seem good at that of thing maybe they could help...). They were "black" too, so maybe we could try the whole "slavery was right" thing while we're at it......

I might note its rather ironic that you remember that incident, but seem to draw a blank on the IDF destroying Palestinian glasshouses and infrastructure.

Its rather misleading to start with talking about a "failure of self governance" when they have only been something close to actually self governing for a year or two.
I was speaking more vaguely of a failure of a community sense, the difficulty they seem to have in policing themselves.
Technically, they have had "self-government" (internal autonomy; as opposed to "independence" which also means control of their external relations) since Oslo, although Israel has suppressed it in parts or all of the territories at various times. But the PA has never been terribly effective.
Nor are they entirely the masters of their own destiny, given that Israel controls the borders.
Well, Egypt controls one of the borders. It is, of course, perfectly normal for Israel to control its side of the Gaza/Israel border; not normal for Israel also to blockade the sea approaches. But the Gaza/Egypt border is up to Egypt; if Egypt considered the Palestinians trustworthy trading partners, I would have no objection: I think Condi's statements to the contrary (as exaggerated in the OP) were stupid (it's not our business); Israel itself is conflicted, but some official statements indicate that Israel also would have no objection if Egypt normalized relations; the problem of course is that Egypt does not want to be held responsible for Palestinians using its territory to get into Israel.

What I object to is the assumption that Israel has any obligation to be giving or selling fuel etc. to the Gazans. Trade depends on mutually friendly relations. I am sure German civilians suffered also when Britain, Russia, and the US were refusing to sell fuel to Germany. Choosing to shoot rockets at a nation is choosing, among other things, not to have normal trade with them. The Palestinian position sounds like, "I can't understand why I'm not allowed to shop in that grocery store anymore: it's not like I shoplifted or anything, all I did was shoot the owner's wife."

As I keep saying, Gaza can get food, fuel, medicine from or through Israel, OR shoot rockets at Israel, but cannot expect to do both. If Gaza is unwilling to have normal trade relations with its neighbors, then of course the limited fuel means little electricity, water supply limited to what hand-pumped wells can give, food supply limited to what they can grown on their own land with limited irrigation, medicine limited to what they manufacture themselves, etc. and they cannot support their present population North-Korean-style. This is their choice: it has always been their choice.

Even if they do normalize, a 3% per annum population growth, doubling time under 25 years, is not sustainable anywhere on this planet. Ethiopia grew at such rates in the 60's and 70's, and then was cut down by the Four Horsemen (civil war, famine, plague, despair). Palestine expects world charity to support them, but Ethiopia could tell them it is not going to be enough: besides, Ethiopia did not go to such lengths to foster ill will as the Palestinians keep doing.
As for the poverty being "exaggerated" it seems that every NGO and world body in the area is 'exaggerating' from the same hymn sheet.
Certainly by a First World standard of living, or by Israel's, Gaza is deeply impoverished. But they are better off than the Egyptians in the Sinai, who do not receive any dole from UNRWA or the NGO's.

Travel Brings Surprises to Gazans (http://www.gjsentinel.com/hp/content/shared-gen/ap/Middle_East/Palestinians_Gaza_Notebook.html)
"After excursions to Egypt across a border breached by Hamas militants, some Palestinians pepper their local Arabic dialect with Egyptian expressions while others say they are shocked by the poverty there....Although shop owners doubled and tripled prices, Jaradeh paid up, saying he even gave extra "because they looked so poor."
Jaradeh is not typical; two-thirds of Gazans live on less than $2 a day. But many travelers remarked on the discrepancy between their more glamorous image of urban Egypt — derived mostly from movies — and the run-down border region of unpaved streets and small houses they encountered."

I might note its rather ironic that you remember that incident, but seem to draw a blank on the IDF destroying Palestinian glasshouses and infrastructure.
I didn't "remember" the incident; all I remembered was Israel agreeing, in response to Palestinian preferences, to level everything as they left. I went searching for "Gaza withdrawal irrigation equipment" at your request, and this is what I found.

I was speaking more vaguely of a failure of a community sense, the difficulty they seem to have in policing themselves.
."

Chaotic situations generally mean theres "chaos". I see little difference in what happened there and what occurred in New Orleans or during the disturbances over the Rodney King verdict.

Well, Egypt .......responsible for Palestinians using its territory to get into Israel.

Egypt is effectively paid and pressured into keeping that border shut, IMO.

What I object to is (.............) owner's wife."

However as Israel has sealed off Gaza from the rest of the World, it is actually their problem, strictly speaking. You may not deem it appropriate but nevertheless....


Palestine expects world charity to support them, ."

I thought we ditched the "lazy Arab" stereotype? You are aware of the difficulties imposed on the farmers of the West Bank?

Chaotic situations generally mean theres "chaos". I see little difference in what happened there and what occurred in New Orleans or during the disturbances over the Rodney King verdict.
So, ending the occupation is like a natural disaster for them? Doesn't bode well for the prospect of Israel ever getting out of the West Bank.
Egypt is effectively paid and pressured into keeping that border shut, IMO.
Or you could put it: they see it as in their interests. The effect of Gazans descending en masse into the Sinai was "like a swarm of locusts"; if there is going to be large-scale trade, Egypt needs to manage it, and that means regaining control of their border. Also, of course, Egypt found the decades of war with Israel to be ruinous, and preserving that peace is important to them: it is for their own interests that they want to avoid being blamed for Palestinians using their territory for sneak attacks. However, if Egypt can manage the situation, with a reasonable degree of control, Israel will not object, and despite Condi's inappropriate intrusion, the US is not about to cut off funds to Egypt for doing what even Israel does not object to.
However as Israel has sealed off Gaza from the rest of the World, it is actually their problem, strictly speaking. You may not deem it appropriate but nevertheless....
Gaza is at war with Israel: that's their problem. Israel is blockading Gaza: that's their solution. We didn't supply Germany or Japan in the early 40's, we did our best to blockade them: it would be insane to expect otherwise.
I thought we ditched the "lazy Arab" stereotype? You are aware of the difficulties imposed on the farmers of the West Bank?
I wasn't meaning to raise any "lazy Arab stereotype" (I didn't even know there was such a "stereotype": violent Arabs; stupid Arabs; dirty Arabs; yes I've all heard all those kinds of stereotypes but I didn't know they were stereotypically supposed to be poor workers). Regardless of how much work they are willing to do, they are also taking it for granted, as their birthright, that they will continue to get a dole; they are having more children than they have any prospect of supporting no matter how hard they work.

[QUOTE=Tmutarakhan;13423157]WTF? Nodinia told me that the violence is caused by the occupation, and I told Nodinia that I remember the violence back before the occupation. Nodinia then went off on how I must be full of racist stereotypes about the Arabs if I actually believe they were calling for the extermination of the Jews before the occupation: no, it is just that I remember those days. Many people are still alive who remember it too.
I was not making any argument about the past justifying the present; I was correcting Nodinia's erroneous statements about the past.

Ahhh....hear that sound Gauthier....that's the sound of your 'argument' being ripped apart. :)

ps. i'm not being sarcastic....I actually do think Gauthiers was arguing a completely different point than the one Tmutarakhan was....Nodina made a ridiculous claim that Tmutarakhan debunked, and the Gauthier brings up a completely different issue. Smoke and mirrors, Gauth.

Ahhh....hear that sound Gauthier....that's the sound of your 'argument' being ripped apart. :)

ps. i'm not being sarcastic....I actually do think Gauthiers was arguing a completely different point than the one Tmutarakhan was....Nodina made a ridiculous claim that Tmutarakhan debunked, and the Gauthier brings up a completely different issue. Smoke and mirrors, Gauth.

Really? All I hear is the sound of one puppet fapping. :rolleyes:

And the point is, how does the Arab countries trying to take out Israel justify the kaffirization of the Palestinians? Were the Palestinians majority rulers of those countries that tried to invade Israel? Was there a Palestinian lobby in Syria and Egypt that pushed for the attacks? The fact is that the other countries are using Palestinians as Tar Babies and Israel is all too glad to keep hitting and setting said Tar Babies on fire instead of making any real efforts to help the Palestinians stop being Tar Babies.

Yes, as a matter of fact, the kill-the-Jews rhetoric was started by the Palestinian "lobby", as you call it. It is not as if it ever was in the self-interest of Egypt or Syria to engage in pointless warfare.

Y'know, between 1948 and 1967, Jordan had control of the West Bank... and the Palestinians and Jordanians are ethnically identical (and in fact WERE the same people, before the partitioning)... pity Jordan didn't do anything about it when they had the chance.

Y'know, between 1948 and 1967, Jordan had control of the West Bank... and the Palestinians and Jordanians are ethnically identical (and in fact WERE the same people, before the partitioning)... pity Jordan didn't do anything about it when they had the chance.

They did then they tried to assassinate the King.

They did then they tried to assassinate the King.
They didn't "try", they succeeded.

"Grand Mufti" Amin al-Husseini, who had started the Itbach al-Yahud! ("exterminate the Jews") campaign in 1920 and was then elected head of the Palestinian community, until banished by the British in the mid-1930's (together with Jabotinsky, for balance: Jabotinsky was the radical Zionist whose faction morphed into Lehi and Irgun, "terrorist" groups by any objective usage of the word, as Nodinia correctly points out), spent WWII in Berlin, broadcasting calls for the Arabs to join the Nazis in their sacred cause of exterminating Jews, and training Moslem SS units (the Bosnian SS, which had an atrocious record even by WWII standards and has much to do with later Serb paranoia, was one of his projects).

Egypt tapped him in 1948 to head the "independent" Government of All Palestine (I put "independent" in quotes because no other nation but Egypt recognized this regime), which ruled Gaza until 1951, when the Mufti assassinated king Abdullah of Jordan, for negotiating with Israel and for annexing the West Bank (formerly, Abdullah's state had been called "Transjordan", but he saw no reason why a separate state was needed on the other side of the river) rather than letting the Government of All Palestine take it over. Abdullah's brains splattered all over his son and grandson; the son went insane and had to be put into an asylum; the young grandson became king Hussein, one of few rulers in modern times to retain power for decades and yet be genuinely mourned by his people when he passed.

When you say "tried", perhaps you are thinking of the Palestinian attempt on king Hussein's life? That was not in the "1948-67" period, but during the "black September" of 1970. From 1968-70, Palestinians angered by the '67 defeat organized a worldwide wave of airplane hijackings from Jordanian bases, but when they brought three of the planes back to Amman and blew them up at the airport there, this was too far for Hussein, who felt he was being made to look like he had no control of his country, and cracked down. They took a shot at him, leading to furious reprisals: large numbers of Palestinians suspected of some connection to the militants were expelled from the country, to Syria and Lebanon. "Black September" for a time became the name of a collaboration among terror specialists from formerly quarreling factions: this group perpetrated the spectacular attack on the Olympic Games, which sent sympathy for the Palestinian cause to a new low.

So, ending the occupation is like a natural disaster for them? .

I wasn't aware that the riots resulting from the Rodney King verdict were a "natural disaster". In fact I'm sure it was quite clear that I was pointing the way some in any given chaotic situation will seek their own advantage. However you just have to get the dig in about the Arab populations.


Gaza is at war with Israel: that's their problem. Israel is blockading Gaza: that's their solution. We didn't supply Germany or Japan in the early 40's, we did our best to blockade them: it would be insane to expect otherwise.
.

"at war" with bottle rockets...its not really a good analogy to make.


I wasn't meaning to raise any "lazy Arab stereotype"(....)workers). .

Strange how you keep trotting it out though.....


Regardless of how much work they are willing to do, they are also taking it for granted, as their birthright, that they will continue to get a dole;.

According to.....?


they are having more children than they have any prospect of supporting no matter how hard they work.

However when economies and living standards improve, birthrates drop. Thats something thats occurred again and again.


ps. i'm (....)Gauth..

And I'd thought the muppets had all left the thread......


Y'know, between 1948 and 1967, Jordan had control of the West Bank... and the Palestinians and Jordanians are ethnically identical ..

They don't regard each other as one and the same. Quite the opposite.

I wasn't aware that the riots resulting from the Rodney King verdict were a "natural disaster".
OK, so ending the occupation isn't like a hurricane, it's more like a terrible injustice? :D
When Israel leaves the West Bank (I'm sure it's bound to happen), what do you expect to happen?

OK, so ending the occupation isn't like a hurricane, it's more like a terrible injustice? :D
When Israel leaves the West Bank (I'm sure it's bound to happen), what do you expect to happen?

And yet again, another attempt to distort the event and get in a jibe. An upheaval occurred and some took advantage of it. It happens all over the world.

I've no idea what will precisely happen when Israel leaves the West Bank, or Arab East Jerusalem. The sooner they fuck off, the sooner we'll find out. Whatever it is, it isn't going to justify Israeli expansionism in hindsight.

Yes, as a matter of fact, the kill-the-Jews rhetoric was started by the Palestinian "lobby", as you call it.in reaction to what the jews did.

in reaction to what the jews did.

Go way.....

Go way.....

i agree I AM AN ARAB, and i dont hate Jews and Israelis that much, hell they bombed the fuck out of my country while i was there! i almost died twice! but still i dont hate them, or think that way, inshallah allah yirhamna koolna :(

Go way.....let jews go away and all will be fine in the middle east.

let jews go away and all will be fine in the middle east.

no it wont! it would get worse, as much as i hate to say it, Israel is the stabilising influence in the ME, it keeps Jordan,Egypt,Gulf States safe, by threatning war on any one who would change the balance of power
________________________________________________________________
"Let the pie and ice cream be served!"

let jews go away and all will be fine in the middle east.

You really have nothing whatsoever to contribute on this topic. Nada.

i agree I AM AN ARAB, and i dont hate Jews and Israelis that much, hell they bombed the fuck out of my country while i was there! i almost died twice! but still i dont hate them, or think that way, inshallah allah yirhamna koolna :(

hmmm the first lebanese (-ite? Lebanon person?) here. hmmm. so many questions. How are things going there? Still trouble between Hezbollah and the Gov.?

EDIT: Oopsey- daisy. Yup. There is isn't there. Coincidentally, how is the mood? I mean, like, are there clashes in your part of town?

hmmm the first lebanese (-ite? Lebanon person?) here. hmmm. so many questions. How are things going there? Still trouble between Hezbollah and the Gov.?

EDIT: Oopsey- daisy. Yup. There is isn't there. Coincidentally, how is the mood? I mean, like, are there clashes in your part of town?

I'm from Baalbak, around there we're all Nasrallah or Aoun, the GOV can kiss our collective asses, Hezballoh may not be perfect, but at least they dont bend over to Gooliani-lite, i'm also jordanian-palestinian from my moms side:)

in reaction to what the jews did.
Like... existing? Or is it your position that immigration is a capital offense? Does that apply to Mexicans, or only to Jews?

And yet again, another attempt to distort the event and get in a jibe. An upheaval occurred and some took advantage of it. It happens all over the world.
Chill. I was just making a joke at your expense: come on, you've got to admit you set yourself up.

I'm from Baalbak...

Since this thread seems to be totally out of its initial context, I think I can also throw several questions to Hezballoh... As an Israeli, no less.:p

How well do you think you (as an Arab, Lebanese, Hizballah supporter, Shi'ite?) know Israel? In terms of politics, issues and all? I mean, I know what I know about Lebanon from the media and a bit from Wikipedia, but I think Lebanon is maybe the most interesting country in the Middle-East (Iran in the second place).

And how well do you think Hizballah knows Israel?

Was it important to you to know that even the Vinograd committee found flaws in Israel's conducting of the war?

Do you think another war is inevitable?

How well do you think you know Israel?

And how well do you think Hizballah knows Israel?

Was it important to you to know that even the Vinograd committee found flaws in Israel's conducting of the war?

Do you think another war is inevitable?

not very well, they are trying to do the best for their people, but going at it the wrong way

they know them pretty well I imagine, i mean after that 30 day ass raping that occured, they must be pretty humiliated

it was important, because as much as the Izzies deny it, they lost, and now we got hamas in gaza, iran in iraq, syria in lebanon, its all their fault! :p

yes another war is going to happen, because they need to build up their aura of power and strength

it was important, because as much as the Izzies deny it, they lost

"Izzies"? That's a new one...

Anyway, the problem here was expectations. Of course Hizballah can see themselves as winners, because their main goal was just to survive the war. Our goal was too far reaching and improbable, so it makes it easy to present it as a failure.

I don't know what you people think about Nasrallah up there, but he isn't flawless. I see him at least partially responsible for what happened, and I wonder how you don't see it that way (and of course there won't be a Lebanese 'Vinograd', after all, Nasrallah is like a dictator).

So this war only made Hizballah supporters and March 14 supporters more certain of thier opinion... Great.

it was important, because as much as the Izzies deny it, they lost, and now we got hamas in gaza, iran in iraq, syria in lebanon, its all their fault! :p
These things aren't linked.

Hamas was in Gaza (and elected by the Palestinians in general) because of the utter corruption and inefficient rule of the PLO. The only other party people could vote in were Hamas who were not seen as corrupt.

Iran in Iraq is the US's fault, not Israel's.

Syria in Lebanon is not a good thing. I'd like a Lebanese government free from outside puppetry.

yes another war is going to happen, because they need to build up their aura of power and strength
Only if Nasrallah starts being a dick again. They did provoke the war at the start. Lebanon is closer to sliding back into civil war than it is getting into another war with Israel.

"Izzies"? That's a new one...Anyway, the problem here was expectations. Of course Hizballah can see themselves as winners, because their main goal was just to survive the war. Our goal was too far reaching and improbable, so it makes it easy to present it as a failure.

I don't know what you people think about Nasrallah up there, but he isn't flawless. I see him at least partially responsible for what happened, and I wonder how you don't see it that way (and of course there won't be a Lebanese 'Vinograd', after all, Nasrallah is like a dictator).

So this war only made Hizballah supporters and March 14 supporters more certain of thier opinion... Great. meh, i like to give stuff nicknames
when you go to war, shouldnt you have realistic goals?
we know he isnt flawless, but couple the fact he stood up to the Izzies, and that he is AL el Beit, makes him very well liked. and he is partly responsible, he said it himself, he didnt expect that type of response from a kidnapping

These things aren't linked.

1. Hamas was in Gaza (and elected by the Palestinians in general) because of the utter corruption and inefficient rule of the PLO. The only other party people could vote in were Hamas who were not seen as corrupt.

2. Iran in Iraq is the US's fault, not Israel's.

3. Syria in Lebanon is not a good thing. I'd like a Lebanese government free from outside puppetry.


4. Only if Nasrallah starts being a dick again. They did provoke the war at the start. Lebanon is closer to sliding back into civil war than it is getting into another war with Israel.

1 i meant the civil war and take over
2. would Iran interfere so much if Israel was still "invincible" and intrested in the turn out of the GW2
3. does that include the US and the Izzie?
4. nah Nasrallah is no idiot, he saw how they were last time, next time they will come prepared, i blame the US and Iran for that *nods*

1 i meant the civil war and take over

Which had nothing to do with Israel's attack in Lebanon

2. would Iran interfere so much if Israel was still "invincible" and intrested in the turn out of the GW2

Yes

3. does that include the US and the Izzie?

Israel does not need permission from the US to do the things they do. Lebanon though...

4. nah Nasrallah is no idiot, he saw how they were last time, next time they will come prepared, i blame the US and Iran for that *nods*

Oh brother :rolleyes:

would hamas have attempted the takeover if Israel was undefeated?

Yes.

really :confused: how so?[/quote]

Simple. Its in their own backyard. Israel is not.

yes Corny please continue, should lebanon bend over and take it in the ass?

They already are with Syria.

what, i mean, that he saw last time they considered them a lebanese hamas, now they will consider them a regular army, and iran and the US are to blame concerning the civil war happening, *see hezbollah-prime minsters goverment*

Wait what? How the fuck is the US responsible for the civil war? Which Civil War are we talking about here? The one that took place where Hezbollah blew up American Marines for HELPING the Lebanonese People as well as getting the Palestinian Liberation Organization out of Lebanon as agreed?

Which had nothing to do with Israel's attack in Lebanon would hamas have attempted the takeover if Israel was undefeated?

Yes
really :confused: how so?

Israel does not need permission from the US to do the things they do. Lebanon though...
yes Corny please continue, should lebanon bend over and take it in the ass?


Oh brother :rolleyes:

what, i mean, that he saw last time they considered them a lebanese hamas, now they will consider them a regular army, and iran and the US are to blame concerning the civil war happening, *see hezbollah-prime minsters goverment*

Yes.

really :confused: how so?

Simple. Its in their own backyard. Israel is not.
[/QUOTE] lol is the only answer needed for that


They already are with Syria.
[QUOTE]
no theyre not, Syria has nothing to give for the bending over the ass :p
[QUOTE]
Wait what? How the fuck is the US responsible for the civil war? Which Civil War are we talking about here? The one that took place where Hezbollah blew up American Marines for HELPING the Lebanonese People as well as getting the Palestinian Liberation Organization out of Lebanon as agreed?
The one that happining right now! or will start soon enough, Iran has hezballoh as its chess piece in the area, and the US has Saad Hariiri and the Prime minister

The one that happining right now! or will start soon enough, Iran has hezballoh as its chess piece in the area, and the US has Saad Hariiri and the Prime minister

I think I actually agree with that statement.

2. would Iran interfere so much if Israel was still "invincible" and intrested in the turn out of the GW2
I think they would. Despite the nice public talk from the Iranian leadership - Israel doesn't feature in all aspects of their foreign policy. Iran has had bigger problems with Iraq in the past and an unstable Iraq is more of a threat to them, than Israel is.

3. does that include the US and the Izzie?
Absolutely. I'm just not happy that Nasrallah is pushing for a third of cabinet seats in an effort to block any decisions he doesn't agree with. Cannot be healthy for Lebanon as a whole.

4. nah Nasrallah is no idiot, he saw how they were last time, next time they will come prepared, i blame the US and Iran for that *nods*
Oh I know Nasrallah is no fool. A politician with skills, but still a dick.

Having said all that, I appreciate the viewpoints of a Lebanese poster and also that of an Israeli poster. Especially since neither have descended into flinging mud and insults at each other.

It's rather quite refreshing.

Having said all that, I appreciate the viewpoints of a Lebanese poster and also that of an Israeli poster. Especially since neither have descended into flinging mud and insults at each other.

It's rather quite refreshing.

Quite unlike business as usual...

:pI think I actually agree with that statement.

yay !

I think they would. Despite the nice public talk from the Iranian leadership - Israel doesn't feature in all aspects of their foreign policy. Iran has had bigger problems with Iraq in the past and an unstable Iraq is more of a threat to them, than Israel is. :confused:

Absolutely. I'm just not happy that Nasrallah is pushing for a third of cabinet seats in an effort to block any decisions he doesn't agree with. Cannot be healthy for Lebanon as a whole.
well he is pushing it since that is what his principal backer wants

Having said all that, I appreciate the viewpoints of a Lebanese poster and also that of an Israeli poster. Especially since neither have descended into flinging mud and insults at each other.
It's rather quite refreshing.

*blushes* thanks we arabs are like a pendulum, we swing from one side to another depending on outside influence

Hahaha, but when it's still classical, don't they anti-foreign influence?:cool:

Hahaha, but when it's still classical, don't they anti-foreign influence?:cool:


Wtf?

One of the reasons that Nabyy Muhammad is a , well, Arab, is that the Arabs (particularly at their sprituality stronghold, Mekah/Mecca), despise any foreign influence to their spirituality, or that's what my teacher said...

Like... existing? Or is it your position that immigration is a capital offense? Does that apply to Mexicans, or only to Jews?Immigration with the set aim to create a state in foreign land regardless of the population at the time is unacceptable.

Good thing that members of the Israeli government aren't fans of collective punishment...

Senior Israeli officials - including members of Mr Olmert's government - have demanded far harsher military and economic action in response to the continuing rocket barrages.

The Israeli interior minister, Meir Sheetrit, said the army should choose a neighbourhood of Gaza, give its residents a day to leave, and then destroy it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7237424.stm

Good thing that members of the Israeli government aren't fans of collective punishment...


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7237424.stm

No kidding. Let's surgically pick out the terrorists by forcibly evacuating a town and blowing it up, that'll show those Hamas nutcases we mean business!

And of course within 48 hours Intelligenstan and/or Tmutarakhan will respond trying to not only defend this brilliant Israeli position, but declare that every single Palestinian in the Occupied Territories should have "risen up against Hamas" if they didn't want this to happen in the first place.

What I find ironic is that you are defending the people who try to blow up a town WITHOUT giving any chance to evacuate. You have no problem with that.



And of course within 48 hours Intelligenstan and/or Tmutarakhan will respond trying to not only defend this brilliant Israeli position,

Hey, you were right....

As Olmert said, in the very link you gave, anger is not a real plan of action.

What I find ironic is that you are defending the people who try to blow up a town WITHOUT giving any chance to evacuate. You have no problem with that.

Yeah, it's a nice change of pace from when they've simply launched missiles at designated targets without evacuating everyone else. Trying to read between the lines are you? I don't recall explicitly endorsing Hamas attacks. :rolleyes:

Of course you don't realize that most people understand what Hamas does is criminal and terrorist. When someone high in the Israeli government even suggests blowing up a whole town evacuated or not as collective punishment it just feeds in to the Hamas propaganda about Israel being an oppressive occupier.

No kidding. Let's surgically pick out the terrorists by forcibly evacuating a town and blowing it up, that'll show those Hamas nutcases we mean business!
As Olmert said, in the very link you gave, anger is not a real plan of action.

What I find ironic is that you are defending the people who try to blow up a town WITHOUT giving any chance to evacuate. You have no problem with that.

Of course you don't realize that most people understand what Hamas does is criminal and terrorist.
What, exactly, do you propose to do about it?

What, exactly, do you propose to do about it?

You're asking someone who's not a part of the Israeli government, so anything I suggest really won't matter.

Hamas is like any other jihadi group. They thrive most and gain the most pools to recruit from when the target audience tends to be illiterate and poor with little to no chance of advancing past their current lot in life. And given Israel's position of collective punishment and unofficial kaffirization of the Palestinians, that pool is teeming with plenty of future suicide bombers and gunmen. Hamas provided infrastructure and social service to the Palestinians, which combined with Fatah corruption proved to be the deciding factor in them winning the election. Which was responded to with frozen assets by an unhappy U.S.

And if there's one history the world should learn, it's that isolating a regime gives it free reign to do whatever the hell it pleases. Look at North Korea. Look at Burma.

If Israel would have the balls to brace for a few rocket attacks and suicide bombings, actually stop and pull back the illegal settlements and give the Palestinians a chance to develop their own healthy economy by ceasing the blockades and blowing the shit out of their infrastructure on a whim, then you'd see a more affluent Palestinian populace who won't come to see Hamas as a social benefactor and might even be allowed to open their eyes to the darker nature of Hamas that the rest of the world all ready knows.

You're asking someone who's not a part of the Israeli government, so anything I suggest really won't matter.

Hamas is like any other jihadi group. They thrive most and gain the most pools to recruit from when the target audience tends to be illiterate and poor with little to no chance of advancing past their current lot in life. And given Israel's position of collective punishment and unofficial kaffirization of the Palestinians, that pool is teeming with plenty of future suicide bombers and gunmen. Hamas provided infrastructure and social service to the Palestinians, which combined with Fatah corruption proved to be the deciding factor in them winning the election. Which was responded to with frozen assets by an unhappy U.S.

And if there's one history the world should learn, it's that isolating a regime gives it free reign to do whatever the hell it pleases. Look at North Korea. Look at Burma.

If Israel would have the balls to brace for a few rocket attacks and suicide bombings, actually stop and pull back the illegal settlements and give the Palestinians a chance to develop their own healthy economy by ceasing the blockades and blowing the shit out of their infrastructure on a whim, then you'd see a more affluent Palestinian populace who won't come to see Hamas as a social benefactor and might even be allowed to open their eyes to the darker nature of Hamas that the rest of the world all ready knows.

Absolutely. It might also be noted that the complete failure of the Israelis to engage with the moderate elements within Hamas only serves to strengthen the hardliners, who point out (not without some justification) that Israel constantly finds reasons to refuse to deal with Palestinian factions, regardless of their stance.

Israel plans new settlement homes
Israeli housing minister Zeev Boim says tenders will soon be issued for construction of more than 1,000 new homes for Jews in East Jerusalem.
Israel annexed the area in 1967 and has continued settlement activity despite a recent freeze on settlements on other occupied territory in the West Bank.

The international community regards such building as illegal. Palestinians want East Jerusalem as their capital.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7240557.stm


Theres many ways to wage war, isn't there.....

If Israel would have the balls to brace for a few rocket attacks and suicide bombings, actually stop and pull back the illegal settlements...
Uh, that's what they DID in Gaza. That's how we got where we are now.
and give the Palestinians a chance to develop their own healthy economy by ceasing the blockades
Prior to the blockade, the Palestinians were shutting down all foreign investment and launching rockets at their only trading partner. They don't seem to *want* a healthy economy, that's the problem here.

Uh, that's what they DID in Gaza. That's how we got where we are now..

...unilaterally, with no attempt to make it part of an overall policy, while maintaining control over borders etc.


Prior to the blockade, the Palestinians were shutting down all foreign investment and launching rockets at their only trading partner. They don't seem to *want* a healthy economy, that's the problem here.

Well a good part of the reason they only have one trading partner is because thats all Israel permits them, isn't it. And prior to the withdrawal, there was regular targeting of Palestinian worskshops and horticultural sheds.

What I find ironic is that you are defending the people who try to blow up a town WITHOUT giving any chance to evacuate. You have no problem with that.

What I find interesting is that you don't condemn the collective punishment of innocent civilians. Surely no side is justified in attacking civilians?

And I adore your straw man there...

You're asking someone who's not a part of the Israeli government, so anything I suggest really won't matter.

Hamas is like any other jihadi group. They thrive most and gain the most pools to recruit from when the target audience tends to be illiterate and poor with little to no chance of advancing past their current lot in life. And given Israel's position of collective punishment and unofficial kaffirization of the Palestinians, that pool is teeming with plenty of future suicide bombers and gunmen. Hamas provided infrastructure and social service to the Palestinians, which combined with Fatah corruption proved to be the deciding factor in them winning the election. Which was responded to with frozen assets by an unhappy U.S.

And if there's one history the world should learn, it's that isolating a regime gives it free reign to do whatever the hell it pleases. Look at North Korea. Look at Burma.

If Israel would have the balls to brace for a few rocket attacks and suicide bombings, actually stop and pull back the illegal settlements and give the Palestinians a chance to develop their own healthy economy by ceasing the blockades and blowing the shit out of their infrastructure on a whim, then you'd see a more affluent Palestinian populace who won't come to see Hamas as a social benefactor and might even be allowed to open their eyes to the darker nature of Hamas that the rest of the world all ready knows.

Would you be advocating the same if was your home that was rocketed and you lost a loved one?

Just curious. :)

Would you be advocating the same if was your home that was rocketed and you lost a loved one?If Israelis get killed it's their own fault. No-one told them to come to Palestine and forcefully occupy it (except, of course, their imaginary god and a certain butthole named Herzl).

Evacuate Jerusalem. Blow it up. Problem solved.

If Israelis get killed it's their own fault. No-one told them to come to Palestine and forcefully occupy it (except, of course, their imaginary god and a certain butthole named Herzl).

If Palestinians get killed it's their own fault. No-one told them to go to war and lose (except, of course, their neighbors and Mohammad).

What I find interesting is that you don't condemn...
I sided with Olmert: anger outbursts are not a reasonable policy. Blowing up towns in Gaza in response to Gazans blowing up towns in Israel would be the equivalent of the Dresden bombing during WWII: the anger is understandable, but the action would not be justified. I am not sure what you are wanting from me. I noted that you had not condemned the Gazans for their attacks: in response, you said that you do oppose that; fine. I ask what should be done about it, and you think the Israelis should just "have the balls" to let it continue: well that is not going to happen; it is the job of the Israeli government to minimize Israeli casualties.

If Palestinians get killed it's their own fault. No-one told them to go to war and lose (except, of course, their neighbors and Mohammad).They did not go to war. War was brought to them.

Evacuate Jerusalem. Blow it up. Problem solved.Nuking Tel Aviv is nicer.

They did not go to war. War was brought to them.
Not true. The decision to initiate violence was entirely theirs. I refuse to hear them complain that the violence went badly for them. They chose to have the matter resolved by force, so OK, it has been resolved: they lost. They continue to choose to have the matter resolved by force: fine, they continue to lose.

They did not go to war. War was brought to them.

:headbang:

Last time I checked, the Arabs were the ones that declared war on Israel.

If Palestinians get killed it's their own fault. No-one told them to go to war and lose (except, of course, their neighbors and Mohammad).

Actually it was their 'Neighbours' that invaded. As the expulsions happened for the most part during the war and not after, its fairly clear losing wasn't the beginning of their troubles. In any case that was in 1947/48 and has only an indirect bearing on whats happening now, as there is a secure and recognised state of Israel. Theres absolutely no need to build more colonies in the West Bank/Arab East Jerusalem due to Arab actions in the 1940's.

You'll also find that a violent response to an attempt at colonialism needs no urging on from "neighbours" nor any particular religous ideology to be present.

The Israeli's are the ultimate whingers, I mean seriously when you look at the actual damage caused by the rockets, it's minimal to the extent of infinitesimally small, I think in all they have killed like 2 people, I mean Hamas fight as well be rebellious teenagers firing fireworks.