NationStates Jolt Archive

Just to know what people here think about them.

"Ana raicha Al Qaeda" is colloquial for "I'm going to the toilet". A very common and widespread use of the word "Al-Qaeda" in different Arab countries in the public language is for the toilet bowl. This name comes from the Arabic verb "Qa'ada" which mean "to sit", pertinently, on the "Toilet Bowl". In most Arabs homes there are two kinds of toilets: "Al-Qaeda" also called the "Hamam Franji" or foreign toilet, and "Hamam Arabi" or "Arab toilet" which is a hole in the ground. Lest we forget it, the potty used by small children is called "Ma Qa'adia" or "Little Qaeda".

I learn something every day.

hahaha.. lol...

I condemn any group of people who try to achieve their objectives by killing other people.

I suggest doing to them what I suggest doing to any violent/extremist group. Neuter them and throw them into the general population in prison.

For those wondering the following are on my suggested Neutering List
Terrorists
KKK
Neo-Nazis
Child Predators
Westboro Baptist Church (They need to stop inbreeding)
E.L.F. (Eco Terrorists)
People who think that Rosie O'Donell is smart
Same for the above only replace Donald Trump
People who fail to win a Darwin Award through sheer incompetence (It's happened)
Kool-Aid Drinkers
People Who Support Dog Fighting
Michael Vick
Michael Jackson
People who think that Paris Hilton/Britney Spears/Lindsey Lohan are good role models
Stupid people in general

Just to know what people here think about them.

They've nice beards, and have a good line in 'Deth to Amerika!!!!' one-liners and rhetoric that always gives me a chuckle.

Huh... what do I think about A-Q, apart from the despise killers deserve...

1.A-Q isn't a classical terrorist organisation (like the basque ETA, or the Baader-Meinhof group). It's more like a modern-style secret service: multi-level, multi-branched, multi-faceted. Hence, it cannot be fought like ETA or IRA because there is no global, unique leadership, and it adopts different approaches to different area.
2.Its general goals, however, look quite clear: it's not "instaurating strict sharia law over all muslim lands" - that's just propaganda - , it's more "keep high attrite between strict islam, moderate islam and westerners to create a global feeling of fear (ie, terrorism) so that we (A-Q) can be the leaders of some areas".
3.A-Q isn't a bunch of beduins with Stingers. It's (more than one) group of highly trained and pretty intelligent terrorists. The origins of A-Q can be traced back in the late '70s and in the '80s, when Reagan's USA and (first Bhutto sr.'s, then Zia's) Pakistan chose to use the islamic fundamentalists (mostly ethnically pashtun) of Pakistan and Afghanistan as spearhead of the anti-communist insurgence in Afghanistan. Osama Bin Laden was at the time the link between the afghani guerrilla, the rich Saudi Arabia, ISI (pakistani secret service) and CIA. In the '90s, A-Q was deeply involved, with some Turkish support (expecially Grey Wolves), in the Balkan wars (they even had training camps in Bosnia). This means that A-Q is a modern terrorist force, with high mobility, high capability of dispersion and diffusion, capability of creating links and finding financial and political support, and established teaching and propaganda know-how.
4.So, generally, to "cut the grass under A-Q's feet" as we would say in Italy, the first step is to scale down the global tension and the West-vs-Islam conflict, because A-Q thrives on that. Peace process in Palestine, peacekeeping in Lebanon, joint african intervention in Somalia, support for moderate islam, inclusion process of the islamic immigrants in the European society, these are all things that hit A-Q more than a nuke.

my 0,04 €, of course.

What do I think of them?

Oh, we dont see much of each other anymore, not like the old days.
We used to get together on weekends and rent some sleazy hotel room, and have wild jyhads, and issuing Fatwahs like madmen till dawn.

Basically, I just felt like they were using me for sects.

I support them
Java-Minang

*grabs popcorn*

They are a reactionary group, need I say more?

I couldn't resist... child of the '80s and all that...

"G.I Joe is the codename for America's daring, highly trained special missions force. It's purpose: To defend human freedom from Al-Qaeda, a ruthless terrorist organization determined to rule the world."

I don't really think about Al-Qaeda* all that much, however I support the Bin Laden breakfast cereal bid (does your box have Osama?) its not like he isn't a corporate figure already :p

*there is no U after the Q, what is wrong with these people?!!

also (http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_oct2001/WhereIsBinLaden.jpg)

A common criminal gang that seeks to cloak their sociopathy in the glittering jacket of ideology, although their ideology sucks major balls. Kinda like the Red Brigades, or Baader-Meinhof Gang.

Is that even a serious question?

quite obviously it is america's own 'mini-self' 'hate-child' that will only go away when america's own policy of bullying the rest of the world in support of the corporate mafia and at the expense of all life on earth does likewise.

certainly both are equally, in a sense immoral, and in many of the same ways, in any larger picture. that being so, i cannot feel strongly for taking sides, but rather a curse on both their houses. which is to say, all 'houses' of belligerance, for whatever idiological or economic excuse.

=^^=
.../\...

A weak justification being used to instigate a state of perpetual war to instill a state of fear to justify creation of a police state.

Sorry, couldn't resist being devil's advocate, so to speak, for a moment... :p

Is that even a serious question?

Look at who's the only person who's given them a positive review.

I voted for "Psst, I am one of them." I am feeling antisocial today, and Java-Minang will give me pancakes if he sees that I'm an al Qaeda. :D

I think al-Qaeda are murderers and extortionists and should be treated as such.

I think they are different from a classic criminal gang because they do not obviously benefit financially from their crimes. I think they are more like a cult -- but not an Islamic cult. It seems to me that Islam is just a front for these people. They wave the Quran and shout about god and all that, but what they really worship is Osama bin Laden and his underlings, whose pictures and names they treat like magical icons and novenas of the saints.

As for bin Laden himself, I cannot understand why anybody can ever be fooled by him. It is so obvious that he doesn't give a rat's ass about the the West, or the US, or the Arab people, or Islam. All he cares about is his own power, here, in this world, not in the world of his god. In his past, he has stated specifically that he wants to topple the Saudi government and establish himself as king of Arabia. His beef with the Saudis is much older than the issue with US military bases or anything the US does in the Middle East, and every time he says otherwise, he is lying. He wants the throne, and that's all there is to it. He is willing to do anything to get it -- anything, that is, except put himself in danger, of course. Why should he die reaching for his dreams, when he can con so many other deluded fools to do it for him?

So why is he so obsessed with declaring war on the US? Simple. We are the biggest, most inviting target in the world at this moment. We do plenty in the Middle East to piss people off, and precious little to make them feel better. We are rich, and most of the Arab people are poor. If the Arab people were to challenge their real oppressors (their own governments) directly, they would be crushed without mercy, but they can attack the US forever with little fear of reprisals. In fact, their corrupt governments (our "allies") can secretly reward them for it by not punishing, and by allowing terrorist groups to establish bases, and by fostering the cult of martyrdom and hate-mongering madrassahs -- making a nice, satisfying, distracting scapegoat out of us. Even those worthless scum, the Saudis, play this game, even though they know they are bin Laden's ultimate targets.

And bin Laden cooperates with -- nay, he exploits this scenario for all it's worth. A few years before 2001, he issued a letter in which he stated that "Muslim men can only define themselves through constant, unending conflict with the West." His goals are clear. He intends, like so many other power-mad wannabe dictators before him, to foster a condition of continuous warfare, so that he may keep the propaganda and social control engines running full tilt forever. A king made by war, who uses war to maintain his throne and power.

If anyone thinks there is anything the US can do -- whether positive or negative, whether peacemaking or war-mongering -- that will cause al-Qaeda to stop threatening and attacking us, they are wrong. The only way to destroy al-Qaeda is by, as Risottia says, cutting the grass under their feet -- by swaying the Arab people to our side, and away from him, by cutting off the flow of recruits to his organization, and by dissolving his so-called network by making it more profitable and beneficial for other groups not to ally with them.

Perhaps the greatest misfortune the world faces today is that bin Laden has found the perfect US president in George W. Bush, because Bush and Cheney (especially Cheney) also favor a world in which there is constant warfare raging -- they want it for profit. So they are more than willing to react and keep reacting to al-Qaeda exactly the way al-Qaeda wants.

<snip>
4.So, generally, to "cut the grass under A-Q's feet" as we would say in Italy, the first step is to scale down the global tension and the West-vs-Islam conflict, because A-Q thrives on that. Peace process in Palestine, peacekeeping in Lebanon, joint african intervention in Somalia, support for moderate islam, inclusion process of the islamic immigrants in the European society, these are all things that hit A-Q more than a nuke.

my 0,04 €, of course.
I agree. All of these are part of sucking the life out of al-Qaeda's propaganda machine, and like all other terrorists, without propaganda, they are nothing but a bunch of kooks.

Is that even a serious question?
No, but we can destroy any potential trollery by answering it seriously. But since the question is ridiculous, I did not vote in that ridiculous poll.

Just to know what people here think about them.

I bet their insurance premiums are through the roof. :p

They're a bunch of murdering terrorists. I hope they are all afflicted with a lethal strain of genital herpes.

EDIT: And by "lethal" I mean "teleports them to Times Square."

I bet their insurance premiums are through the roof. :p
Nope, they're not that responsible. Just like uninsured motorists, they're the reason our premiums are so high.

al-Qaeda is a political pressure group using violence, threats of violence, intimidation, racial vilification, propaganda, and religious bigotry to advance a sectarian and political cause.

In that, they are neither unusual nor particularly repugnant. Their worst aspects are their complete unwillingness to enter into a dialogue and choice of tactics, which are both repugnant and probably counterproductive.

Their ultimate goals are not compatible with civilization, and thus require their eventual defeat.

Now, in my time here I've seen Nazi's, Neo-Nazis, Communists and the ilk, but never an A-Q supporter.

Are you for real, OP?

Nope, they're not that responsible. Just like uninsured motorists, they're the reason our premiums are so high.

:mad: Those Bastards! :mad:

I do not support the organisation or its actions. I do have a degree of sympathy for its members - generally people like myself who have been let down by the failed constructs of humanity - but I disapprove of the methods they've chosen to deal with and express their grievances, as well as the supposed aims they are seeking to accomplish.

Are we really going to make things better by making a world where only those who agree with us can be happy? Are we really going to bring an end to struggle and hardship by engaging in a policy of mass murder? Can we really make the world see the error of its ways by behaving as its enemies?

Yes, there are problems with the way the western world treats us and everything else, but this battle is against a social construct, not against its members. Violence is an indication of weakness, and to resort to attacking those caught up in the middle of our conflict with the ailing society we find ourselves in is to admit that we are not strong enough (or too lazy) to resolve it in any other way.

The truth is that Al Qaeda's members have phenomenal strength that their organisation will put to use in the most trivial and childish of ways. Its people we call fundamentalists once they have been passed through the indoctrination period because they are singly devoted to the cause that has been laid before them, but what the people really are are tortured souls seeking resolution, and there is nothing more potent in this world or any other than a resolve tempered by suffering. All that Al Qaeda does with this resolve is to have it press a button to blow things up and tell people they're annoyed, when if it really understood the nature of the resource at its perusal, it could change this planet in so many ways, potentially for the greater good.

The people of Al Qaeda need to realise that their strength could be put to much better use than detonating explosives and shouting. We need them to help us put things right, because they understand better than anyone the pains of what they've gone through. I don't think they can do so any further under the guise of the Al Qaeda movement, which has made its point clear enough through its current means, but I hope that they can find it in themselves to use the experience they've gained under it to help us deal with the wrongs in this world directly rather than simply pointing at them and expecting others to take on the job.

So in other words, more than 1/3 of the active members of this board will not even go so far as to condemn Al-Qaeda. Anyone want to bet that all them want Obama to be President? You know I'm right.

Wankers. But there we go.

So in other words, more than 1/3 of the active members of this board will not even go so far as to condemn Al-Qaeda. Anyone want to bet that all them want Obama to be President? You know I'm right.
Correlation is not causation.

Al-Qaeda, a name dreamt up by the CIA to help prosecute Osama bin Laden under anti-Mafia laws (which require a named organisation for there to be a prosecution in absentia) after the first bombing of the WTC back in 1993, is the great bogeyman of the 21st century.

Back in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s it was the damn Reds, in the 80’s it was Drugs. Today it’s al-Qaeda and ‘International Terrorism’.

What we know now today as ‘al-Qaeda’ is a small, loosely organised group of men, inspired by Sayyid Qutb and his ideas outlined in Ma’alim fi al-Tariq (Milestones), seemingly bankrolled by Osama bin Laden and led by Ayman al-Zawahiri.

It may have inspired other militant Islamic groups or individuals around the world, but the idea that al-Qaeda or bin Laden are somehow international terrorists, masters of some massive, world-wide conspiracy is as unfounded and irrational as David Icke’s suggestions of shape-shifting lizards ruling the world.

Thus I don't give two hoots about the organisation.

Correlation is not causation.
Flamebaiting (and replying to said flamebait) is not debating.

So in other words, more than 1/3 of the active members of this board will not even go so far as to condemn Al-Qaeda. Anyone want to bet that all them want Obama to be President? You know I'm right.

I bet they're all left-handed, as well!

Fuckin' lefties. I bet they want Obama as President as well, bastards...

I bet they're all left-handed, as well!

Fuckin' lefties. I bet they want Obama as President as well, bastards...

:eek: And there you go again. You chiralists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality) are always making life harder for us left-handed people, when all we want is to be treated equally.

:eek: And there you go again. You chiralists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality) are always making life harder for us left-handed people, when all we want is to be treated equally.

Bah, you know you swine want to secretly elect Obama! Then you and the radical black-muslim-Illuminati coalition can sieze power and doom this blessed, glorious United States of American!

You're worse than the Communists.

My mum and dad are left handed, what hand you write with has nothing to do with your ability to kill other people, unless you want to get extremely technical about it.
And i don't think Al qaeda are nice people due to terrorist attacks, better they go away.

What about "They're a make believe entity to scare little children, like the boogy monster......."

USA + KSA + Pak were the ones running the Afghan jihad and in that time they were maintaining a database of fighters being trained in terrorism (well, they used to call that "freedom fighting") to be used as dogs of war...as strategic weapons of war indeed...with the convenient plausible deniability of this layered approach.

This database was called Q eidat ilmu'ti'aat' in Arabic, literal translation of the English word database. It was also referred using the short word 'Al Qaida' which is the Arabic word for 'base'.

Now USA is the one fighting a "war on terror" against "Al Qaeda" with KSA as a staunch ally and Pak as a "frontline ally".

Just like how jihadis were used for "strategic objectives", this "war on terror" is now used to pursue other objectives (the PNAC)

What a cruel joke.

"Go to bed now Billy, or al-Qaida will come and get you!" "No nooooo!"Said Billy "But if you're good then President Bush will save you!" Said his mother

Bah, you know you swine want to secretly elect Obama! Then you and the radical black-muslim-Illuminati coalition can sieze power and doom this blessed, glorious United States of American!

You're worse than the Communists.

Nice try troll, no one is falling for it, every one knows that all brits (including you) HATE Americans.

I think they miss represent Islam either willfully or not. I also think they for the most part are simply thugs and murders who should be hunted down and killed.

Nice try troll, no one is falling for it, every one knows that all brits (including you) HATE Americans.

I like Americans. It's their government i don't like. At least you have more variety in your country, come to Britain and things generally don't change much, pretty laid back.

I like Americans. It's their government i don't like. At least you have more variety in your country, come to Britain and things generally don't change much, pretty laid back.

Naa, you have immigration from 3'd world countries. I actually talked to a brit eirlier who was on vacation here. He said you have a racist term for brown people, "pakies". I had trouble understanding him though, because of that accent of yours.

Nice try troll, no one is falling for it, every one knows that all brits (including you) HATE Americans.
Bit of a sweeping statement, to be honest.

Naa, you have immigration from 3'd world countries.
Aye, it's spiff.
I actually talked to a brit eirlier who was on vacation here.
Jesus Christ...
He said you have a racist term for brown people, "pakies".
If they're from the Indian subcontinent, aye. See also "Paki Shop", ie a corner shop.
I had trouble understanding him though, because of that accent of yours.
Och the burn...

Naa, you have immigration from 3'd world countries. I actually talked to a brit eirlier who was on vacation here. He said you have a racist term for brown people, "pakies". I had trouble understanding him though, because of that accent of yours.

Oh that, only idiots use that term. Which accent did he have, as there are many.
It's easy to understand what you American people say, it's harder to understand why. Apart from Rednecks, they're just funny.

Nice try troll, no one is falling for it, every one knows that all brits (including you) HATE Americans.

Lolz. Half my family ARE Americans, I don't hate them, I just despise their politics.

I think the terrorist bastards need to be arrested and convicted. It is possible give them the death penalty. If they can't put them in the general prison population;).

I think the terrorist bastards need to be arrested and convicted.
And which ‘terrorist bastards’ would that be?

The IRA? The kids from Leeds who blew themselves up on the London Underground? The Cylons?

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" - Some random guy who I don't know the name of

Al-Qaeda (translates from Arabic as "The Foundation") is simply out there to institute Islam on a global level. Since the Qur'an allows Muslims to fight non-Muslims (Kuffar) if the ultimate goal is defense, Al-Qaeda is correct according to Islam since "defense" is up to one's own interpretation.

Well, like other people who go around resorting to violence as a first resort, they are utterly barbaric.

I'm a member...oh crap, that was an option...

I think they miss represent Islam either willfully or not. I also think they for the most part are simply thugs and murders who should be hunted down and killed.

They cannot be dismissed so easily. They are a part of the global salafi movement which is gaining strength. They do have ideological basis for their movement (Bana, Maududi, Qutb etc have written prolifically on this).

Like it or not, the structure of Islam allows a way for hardliners to claim moral ground in a way they cannot be defeated in a purely Islamic space. And when people get hardline...it is my observation, that they go on a one-way street and go the whole hog. The endless supply for jihad comes from this.

I would be happy to be proved wrong.

They cannot be dismissed so easily. They are a part of the global salafi movement which is gaining strength. They do have ideological basis for their movement (Bana, Maududi, Qutb etc have written prolifically on this).

Like it or not, the structure of Islam allows a way for hardliners to claim moral ground in a way they cannot be defeated in a purely Islamic space. And when people get hardline...it is my observation, that they go on a one-way street and go the whole hog. The endless supply for jihad comes from this.

I would be happy to be proved wrong.

I think you are right on with this post. As you may know I am Muslim myself. I talk to many people within the Muslim community and in my travels. I can say what you said here I have heard repeated over and over. In my opinion Islam will need outside help to curtail the hardliners. This is something that cannot be left along to be worked out within the Muslim community itself.

Killing's too good for them.

Ideally, they should be capured alive, beaten to within an inch of their lives, nursed back to semi-health, chained down, forcibly stuffed with pork sausage (from both ends), made the subject of a dog & pony bukakke video, put in stocks on display in a New York City public urinal for a week, catheterized, the catheter hooked up to a IV drip of hydrochloric acid, and THAT allowed to drip until it kills them. :upyours:

Killing's too good for them.

Ideally, they should be capured alive, beaten to within an inch of their lives, nursed back to semi-health, chained down, forcibly stuffed with pork sausage (from both ends), made the subject of a dog & pony bukakke video, put in stocks on display in a New York City public urinal for a week, catheterized, the catheter hooked up to a IV drip of hydrochloric acid, and THAT allowed to drip until it kills them. :upyours:

l like yu :p

Killing's too good for them.

Ideally, they should be capured alive, beaten to within an inch of their lives, nursed back to semi-health, chained down, forcibly stuffed with pork sausage (from both ends), made the subject of a dog & pony bukakke video, put in stocks on display in a New York City public urinal for a week, catheterized, the catheter hooked up to a IV drip of hydrochloric acid, and THAT allowed to drip until it kills them. :upyours:

No no no, thats not the way to go about. When we capture them, line them up in front of a firing squad of troops then :mp5:. Nice clean execution, old style.

Killing's too good for them.

Ideally, they should be capured alive, beaten to within an inch of their lives, nursed back to semi-health, chained down, forcibly stuffed with pork sausage (from both ends), made the subject of a dog & pony bukakke video, put in stocks on display in a New York City public urinal for a week, catheterized, the catheter hooked up to a IV drip of hydrochloric acid, and THAT allowed to drip until it kills them. :upyours:

This kind of elaborate, violent sexual fantasy indicates to me that you might be a danger to others.

I hate the bourgeois government in America but I also oppose any non-proletarian attempt at destroying the old order and establishing a new one. If Al Qaeda succeeds in either establishing a new pan-islamic state in the muslim world then it will definitely be fascist and they will become the new ruling class. If we let them succeed then there will be mass sufferring as a result of laws based on the illogical, racist, sexist and downright immoral teachings of an illiterate warlord a thousand years ago.

As far as I can see; if the Americans had let the Iraqis keep control over their own economy in a highly protectionist mixed economy with a secular government using the 1970 Iraq Constitution like most of them wanted then none of this would of happened and America would have left Iraq a year or two ago. Instead we followed shock doctrine tactics and friedmanism to exploit them, skyrocket unemployment, destroy the middle class and cause them to radicalise. I have no idea what can be done now...

Indonesia War Minister (java), you should start this convo on the forum in Florence. You haven't been active for a while.

They are a reactionary group, need I say more?
Well orginally they were reactionary to the Soviets, but after we stupidly helped him out. Osama got this "Greater Islamic Empire that would stretch from Spain to India" delusion going.

Basicly Al-Qaida is one of those "Takeover the World" type groups.

Hmm... Maybe Osama should shave his head and get a cat, or put random metallic walls in his underground lair. Then get a tall retard and a tiny Asian guy to be his bodyguards.

Wow! I left this for a day, and I get 4 pages reply!
Naturally, I feel them as an ally, only because my despisal of Capitalistic, and other reasons.

Of course, while he dreamed of an empire to India, we dreamed an empire stretched from Malaya to Maluku.

and Aetheronian Republics, I thought this kind of things forbidden in the forum.

And, I don't agree at the conspiracy of Black-Muslim-Illuminati, Black and Muslim maybe, but we despises the Illuminaty...
Of course, we also hate the Freemason as much as the European power at the middle ages.

Now, if you suspect me of another member/founder of another 'Take the World!' conspiracy group, I can neither place yes, nor no. As I'm too not sure.

BTW, I'm some kind of fascist too (but not too much like the Neo-Nazis!)

And, I don't like the American accent, I don't know, but their is so hard to understand (I can understand the British' one better.)

So, that is my position on every (if it every?) issues in this thread.

Salaam,
Indonesia War Minister (IWM)/Java-Minang

I voted for "Psst, I am one of them." I am feeling antisocial today, and Java-Minang will give me pancakes if he sees that I'm an al Qaeda. :D

Hehehe,
I'm giving you an SS-22, newly made!
*LOL*

terms like false flag and straw dog come to mind. not that people who join them arn't strongly and understandably motivated. but as one post pointed out in detail, they ARE ultimately america's own 'baby'.

and america's policy of bullying the rest of the world does need to be reined in some how. but i don't think some group like alciada could do it alone. this is something that is going to require the rest of the world uniting to protect itself, (from america, not alquieda, which is the far lesser of the two threats), all of the most powerful nations.

considering how much negative lunacy there has been, a few more positive long shots arn't inconceivable either.

=^^=
.../\...

Their worst aspects are their complete unwillingness to enter into a dialogue and choice of tactics, which are both repugnant and probably counterproductive.
It's not about unwillingness: A-Q qualifies itself by not entering a dialogue, it's about its very essence.
This is the major difference between A-Q and other terrorist political groups of the present and of the past, like al-Fatah (yes, they used terrorism too) or Hamas or Hezbollah, just to quote other islamic (but not necessarily "islamist") groups. Since al-Fatah, Hezbollah and Hamas are political groups who also use(d) terrorism as a method to achieve their political ends, it has been and is still possible to build a dialogue with them - you just have to show them a way to reach an acceptable compromise (without resorting to violence and terrorism (it has been done with IRA already, but I'm not saying it's easy!). A-Q, on the other hand, would lose totally its meaning by accepting a dialogue.

Their ultimate goals are not compatible with civilization, and thus require their eventual defeat.
Totally agreed.

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" - Some random guy who I don't know the name of
This random guy is an idiot.
Freedom fighting and terrorism are two separate things.
You can be a freedom fighter AND a terrorist, a freedom fighter AND NOT a terrorist, a terrorist AND NOT a freedom fighter.

"Freedom fighter" is about the ENDS. "Terrorist" is about the MEANS.
In WW2, most countries used terrorism (bombings against civilians, massacre of civilians) as standard means of waging war on their enemies (see Coventry, Vergeltungswaffen, Dresden, Milano, Sant'Anna di Stazzema, Katyn, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki...).
As for freedom fighters, the French and the Italian Resistance didn't target random german civilians.
A Palestinian shooting at an israeli soldier who's invading the Gaza Strip isn't using terrorism; a Palestinian blowing himself up with a bomb in a crowded israeli market is using terrorism.
etc, etc, etc...


Al-Qaeda (translates from Arabic as "The Foundation") is simply out there to institute Islam on a global level. Since the Qur'an allows Muslims to fight non-Muslims (Kuffar) if the ultimate goal is defense, Al-Qaeda is correct according to Islam since "defense" is up to one's own interpretation.

That is, no different from the Shrub's foreing policy of "pre-emptive defence", isn't it? That's up to the Shrub's own interpretation, after all.

:rolleyes:

Killing's too good for them.

Ideally, they should be capured alive, beaten to within an inch of their lives, nursed back to semi-health, chained down, forcibly stuffed with pork sausage (from both ends), made the subject of a dog & pony bukakke video, put in stocks on display in a New York City public urinal for a week, catheterized, the catheter hooked up to a IV drip of hydrochloric acid, and THAT allowed to drip until it kills them. :upyours:

I guess that now you feel a better, more moral man than Osama Bin Laden. :rolleyes:

Nice try troll, no one is falling for it, every one knows that all brits (including you) HATE Americans.

Dammit! How did you damn colonials figure it out so fast?

Bah, I say, Bah! You won't be talking like that when the invasion fleet lands and we take back the Thirteen Colonies and the backtaxes you owe us!

Look, we even have a Reconstruction Plan ready, prepared by the new Governer-General, Lord Cleese:

http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/Humor/otherhumor/cleese_letter.htm

But, seeing as Capitalism and Liberalism has forced it's way and changed our values, we must defend againts that, it is not?
Imagine, the communism has made it way to America (Or your country), will you fight againts it?
And, I saw everyday the negative things you WESTERNer has put to our youngster's minds!
They have been brain washed, I know it!

(Ups, a little out of control there)

But, seeing as Capitalism and Liberalism has forced it's way and changed our values, we must defend againts that, it is not?
Imagine, the communism has made it way to America (Or your country), will you fight againts it?
And, I saw everyday the negative things you WESTERNer has put to our youngster's minds!
They have been brain washed, I know it!

(Ups, a little out of control there)

Oh no, negative things like sexual freedom, the end of religious presecution and free speech without the risk of imprisonment or torture.

Such evil things!

I hate the bourgeois government in America but I also oppose any non-proletarian attempt at destroying the old order and establishing a new one.

Remeber: "bourgoisie has been the most revoluctionary class in history". (Karl Marx).

BTW, I'm some kind of fascist too (but not too much like the Neo-Nazis!)
Salaam,
Indonesia War Minister (IWM)/Java-Minang

Now explain me how being a fascist fits with "peace" as greeting.
Also... you claim to be both a fascist and an Indonesian... well, then I allow myself to point you to the racial laws approved by the fascist government of Italy in 1938, and, by that laws, deprive you of your rights. 'Nuff said.:D

The Ideology: Muslims is the superior people; The Melanesian should be slaughtered and their land should be given to the Melayus.
Isn't this makes me a Fascist?Racist more like.

The Ideology: Muslims is the superior people; The Melanesian should be slaughtered and their land should be given to the Melayus.
Isn't this makes me a Fascist?

The Ideology: Muslims is the superior people; The Melanesian should be slaughtered and their land should be given to the Melayus.
Isn't this makes me a Fascist?

Fascist, bigoted and a few other things to boot.

So, why are Muslims superior?

Ehm, Because it is my mind told me? Or because I have seen the truth of the Capitalist , Sinners, and editor of their religion!!

And, atheists (Communist) aren't better than them!!

OK, I launched my inner and should-be d*mned personality. or mood.
I'm stress ful now, I have (Yes, I have!!) made a crazy plan about how to kill the Illuminati and the Freemasons once and for all. That includes to nuke the USA, bomb the Palestine.
So, I'm in a stress right now, and once a time I can go out of control...
Salaam,
Indonesia War Minister (IWM)/Java-Minang

Ehm, Because it is my mind told me? Or because I have seen the truth of the Capitalist , Sinners, and editor of their religion!!

And, atheists (Communist) aren't better than them!!

OK, I launched my inner and should-be d*mned personality. or mood.
I'm stress ful now, I have (Yes, I have!!) made a crazy plan about how to kill the Illuminati and the Freemasons once and for all. That includes to nuke the USA, bomb the Palestine.
So, I'm in a stress right now, and once a time I can go out of control...
Salaam,
Indonesia War Minister (IWM)/Java-Minang

Well old chum, I'm an atheist, and I can't really see myself as a threat to you or your religion, one way or another. Also, atheists don't automatically correlate to Communism.

Also, you realize that the Illuminati haven't existed for centuries, and that the the Freemasons are about as threatening as the Illuminat, given the previous point. The best they can do is use the old 'old-boy handshake' to get each other jobs. Hardly terrifying.

I'd also argue against launching nuclear weapons against the US. I rather doubt you have the materials or capacity to do so, and such an action would unleash untold horrors for the nation that did so.

Ehm, Because it is my mind told me? Or because I have seen the truth of the Capitalist , Sinners, and editor of their religion!!
Right now you're just giving your country a bad name. Which you shouldn't, because I know a lot of Indonesians who know a lot better than you.

Here's a question for you: if you go to heaven because you lived a virtuous life, and you go to hell if you don't - then why do you have to force other people to do stuff? The choice is quite clear and the same for everyone. People have access to the Qur'an and if you want to you can make your knowledge of it available if they ask.

But if your neighbour knows all this, and has all these means at his disposal, but still chooses to make what you consider sinful choices - then why is it any business of yours? Be honest here: has anything "the West", "the capitalists", "the Jews" et al have done to you actually stopped you from being a good Muslim and a good person? Was any choice actually taken from you as a person?

They Have!!! The Capitalist system separated the Poor and the Rich more than we ever have seen! And the 'Koperasi' system failed everywhere but in the hands of Farmer/low-class (i mean have low income) worker. In the city the brothership has been left, because the Capitalist again.

1 thing I say, the freedom the west make them to be ruined my country!!
When Soeharto still as our president, at least we aren't have to import rice from abroad, but now we have!! Also, the rice made by us is declining every year (annualy) because the convertion of Rice's field to Crude Palm's field! And Guess what who makes it like that? The Investor!!

Conclusion: The Western System make us falling as low as now!

[I have lost my control, again.)

They Have!!! The Capitalist system separated the Poor and the Rich more than we ever have seen!
So? Does that stop you from being a good person or a good Muslim? The idea behind Islam is not to strive for riches, I believe.

This is not a religious issue, and certainly not one that can be addressed with explosives. If you don't like it, vote for the Socialists.

When Soeharto still as our president, at least we aren't have to import rice from abroad, but now we have!!
It's sort of funny that I have to tell you this, considering that you're from Indonesia and I'm not, but Suharto was the reason you have capitalism. He was an authoritarian capitalist, he opened markets and let foreign investors in, freed up enterprise (to his cronies, anyways) and IIRC presided over the greatest sustained increase in living standards Indonesia has ever seen.

Also, the rice made by us is declining every year (annualy) because the convertion of Rice's field to Crude Palm's field! And Guess what who makes it like that? The Investor!!
Are you measuring your country's greatness in rice?

You know, I'm willing to bet that the US is also a net rice importer, though I can't speak about the quality of American rice. That doesn't tell us a whole lot though about whether the US is a rich, powerful or successful country.

Shoot! You beat me in every aspect of this debate...
OK, I'll surrender. Ah, 1 more debate to lost... :headbang:

the people going on about all the ways they want to kill Al-Qaeda seem like the terrorists to me

I agreed with you...
yeah, they are terrorist themself too...
Such Ironic...

Right now you're just giving your country a bad name. Which you shouldn't, because I know a lot of Indonesians who know a lot better than you.

Here's a question for you: if you go to heaven because you lived a virtuous life, and you go to hell if you don't - then why do you have to force other people to do stuff? The choice is quite clear and the same for everyone. People have access to the Qur'an and if you want to you can make your knowledge of it available if they ask.

But if your neighbour knows all this, and has all these means at his disposal, but still chooses to make what you consider sinful choices - then why is it any business of yours? Be honest here: has anything "the West", "the capitalists", "the Jews" et al have done to you actually stopped you from being a good Muslim and a good person? Was any choice actually taken from you as a person?

i agree with you, i am muslim and here is what i think:
do whatever you fucking want, im not going to hell if i dont stop you, smoke weed, throw pies, eat pigs, free your women, elect people like bush, and finally make a Philly cheese steak and dont give me any! :)

but, isn't it is in the Hadits? To at least tell other that it's wrong, else you also do that and subject to the sin it brought to you...
Yeah, maybe I'm a fundementalist...

I agreed with you...
yeah, they are terrorist themself too...
Such Ironic...

"to beat the man, you gotta be the man" rick flair

Lol

The Ideology: Muslims is the superior people; The Melanesian should be slaughtered and their land should be given to the Melayus.
Isn't this makes me a Fascist?

I think that the correct term is racist, expansionist, and generally a potential war criminal.

but, isn't it is in the Hadits? To at least tell other that it's wrong, else you also do that and subject to the sin it brought to you...
Yeah, maybe I'm a fundementalist...
Possibly, yes, even probably. Unfortunately, you are also grossly misinformed and laboring under a false notion of how the world actually works.

1) Telling people you think they are doing wrong does not have to be done by violence. Your choice to support a violent approach and a violent, hateful group just shows that you are a violent, hateful person. Since you don't have to do it, your choice to do it makes you one of the bad guys -- part of the problem, not part of the solution.

2) There is no such thing as a secret political/religious organization called the Illuminati, and there never was. There have been many, many small groups called Illuminati, but they have all been private drinking and partying clubs, never connected to each other each other in any way. The reason they use the name "Illuminati" is because the first such drinking/partying club existed in England in the 1700s, and in those days, it was considered funny to give mysterious-sounding names to groups of drunks. That first club got lots of juicy and amusing rumors started, so others decided to copy them, for the laughs. So...it was and is a joke.

3) The Freemasons also are no threat to anyone. They did start out as a political club, but one that was egalitarian and about erasing class barriers, so that is what gave them their bad reputation. Again this was back in 1700s England, when the ruling classes were very jealous of their status and power and hated the Freemasons for letting commoners join. Today, the Freemasons are just a social club that focuses on job networking and charitable fundraising for medical care and research, especially for children's care. If you hate/attack them, then you are hating/attacking these people:

http://www.masonicinfo.com/caring.htm
http://www.masonicinfo.com/shrinehosp.htm

as well as people in high corporate positions, who help their friends get similar jobs. (By the way, if you don't want to believe the Masons' own site, you can google all of the listed charities, hospitals, events and groups to find other info about them, from other sources.)

4) As a rule of thumb, in general, any time you find yourself saying that some secret non-governmental organization is keeping you down, you are believing a myth. Such organizations simply do not exist. Even the Bilderburg Group and the Davos Group (both conventions of corporate leaders named for the places where they meet) are not what many people think they are. Even people who wish they belonged to such a group (like Dick Cheney, imo), really do not. They are just as deluded as you.

5) If it is Western cultural/economic imperialism that bothers you (a legitimate concern), then take your complaints to your own governments. They are the ones who let foreign powers and corporations in. They are the ones who let your markets and media be filled with things you don't like. They are the ones who make deals with foreign interests that are unfair to you. They are the ones who bow and scrape to foreign interests for financial favors. They are the ones who impose or allow inequality in your societies. They are the ones creating and maintaining poverty in your countries. They are the ones with the power to fix all those problems. Your own governments are the ones who are supposed to be looking out for you. It is not the job of non-Muslims to help you maintain your Muslim world-view. If you think you have been betrayed, then it is your own governments who betrayed you, not us.

6) Other people's thoughts and lifestyles have no power to change how you think, feel or live your own life. Nothing is forcing you to participate in a Western liberal lifestyle that you do not approve of. I don't approve of lots of things in my own country (the USA), but that doesn't stop me from living the way I want to. When you say that you cannot live your way in a world that includes us because of the way we think and live, it sounds to me like a lame excuse for your own weakness, your own lack of conviction, your own inability to stick to your path. I, for one, have no intention of taking the blame for your failures. If I can manage to live my way while sharing the world with people who are different from me, then so can you.

So all I have to say about all your rantings is, grow up, get a clue about the world, and take charge of yourself. Get your own house in order and stop messing with mine.

They torture people to death for no viable reason. Perhaps if they were extracting information I might excuse them, but they are not. Ergo, I do not care for the group.

two words........There crazy

And for what they did to the world trade centers they deserve death!!Nothing less, those people didn't deserve that. They had never done anything to them personally.Basically there the "NAZI'S" of the 21st century. Killing people just because they dont think like you what the @#$% man. Like the Nazi's they should be hunted down like dogs......wait not like dogs i love dogs. Hope my opinions arent to extreme for you guys.

Sign,
One Angry American Army Corporal

Just to know what people here think about them.

I don't believe they exist.
Osama Bin Laden is probably just Condoleza Rice with a fake beard.

I don't believe they exist.
Osama Bin Laden is probably just Condoleza Rice with a fake beard.

ROTFLMFAO

Wow that is the funniest thing i have ever heard and im not being sarcastic. It really is funny, she is one ugly @#$%&.

I have about the same kind of attitude about Bin Laden as President Bush (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html):

So I don't know where he is. You know, I just don't spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you. I'm more worried about making sure that our soldiers are well-supplied; that the strategy is clear; that the coalition is strong; that when we find enemy bunched up like we did in Shahikot Mountains, that the military has all the support it needs to go in and do the job, which they did.

Q But don't you believe that the threat that bin Laden posed won't truly be eliminated until he is found either dead or alive?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban.

6) Other people's thoughts and lifestyles have no power to change how you think, feel or live your own life. Nothing is forcing you to participate in a Western liberal lifestyle that you do not approve of. I don't approve of lots of things in my own country (the USA), but that doesn't stop me from living the way I want to. When you say that you cannot live your way in a world that includes us because of the way we think and live, it sounds to me like a lame excuse for your own weakness, your own lack of conviction, your own inability to stick to your path. I, for one, have no intention of taking the blame for your failures. If I can manage to live my way while sharing the world with people who are different from me, then so can you.
First 5 I was fine on (noting that PMCs, while being non-governmental organisations employed essentially to repress, aren't exactly secret) but this one I'm going to have to rebuke. The lifestyles and attitudes of other people do influence the way anyone else's world works. This is a consequence of living in a reality of finite resource: to take from it is to deprive others of it. It might not seem like that in the US, where the labour that goes in to produce the massive amount of cheap goods is done in other countries far from where you can see it, but in order to maintain what you call a "liberal lifestyle" (in which I assume you include commercial consumerism) someone needs to provide you with the things you consume, and more often than not, the people that produce are poorly imbursed for the work that goes into the production.

Yes, the people that get the bad end of this arrangement are weak compared to the guys with guns that maintain the status quo to keep their own livelihoods guaranteed. They don't have the strength to dig themselves out of this through eloquence or through active uprising (some desperate ones blow themselves up, but that's generally not very effective). But is this wrong? Is it shameful to be frail, insecure and uncertain? I think not. If it were, there would not be a person alive today free from guilt. Nobody can overpower an army, nobody can state with honest conviction the ultimate origin and purpose of their own existence, and nobody can ever claim to know all there is to know, or even that that which they think they know is completely true. We are all of us plagued with weakness, and to deride and abuse others for their lack of strength is hypocracy of the greatest magnitude.

(Why did they attack US?) two words........There crazy42
its the answer to all your question.

The other answer to all your questions is "Because they are crazy"
its a band-aid answer to cover all question regarding the enemy.


Here is another band-Aid answer "they attacked US, because we are the beacon of Freedom,Justice, Democracy.. and they are just jealous"

I think Al Qaueda is a pretty cool guy. eh hides in caves and doesn't afraid of anything.

two words........There crazy

Where crazy?

Seriously, I do not wish to sound pompous, but you should correct that before the Fass police get here.

I would like to personally round up each and every al Qaeda terrorist and kill them in a violent, painful and prolonged manner. Like, for example, cutting off their hands and legs, blinding them with hot iron brands, and letting them bleed to death (following the example of their precious "prophet"). Then do the same thing to every last one of their families, friends, supporters, allies, enablers, and spiritual advisors, with the exception of any minor children they may have. Those I would adopt out to be raised as Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, or for particularly hard cases, Moonies.

Does that answer your question?

I would like to personally round up each and every al Qaeda terrorist and kill them in a violent, painful and prolonged manner. Like, for example, cutting off their hands and legs, blinding them with hot iron brands, and letting them bleed to death (following the example of their precious "prophet"). Then do the same thing to every last one of their families, friends, supporters, allies, enablers, and spiritual advisors, with the exception of any minor children they may have. Those I would adopt out to be raised as Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, or for particularly hard cases, Moonies.

Does that answer your question?

I refer to this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13375018&postcount=56).

Seriously, it's fucking disgusting how many people have these detailed, sick, sadistic sex fantasies about murder and torture.

People like you worry me far more than Al Qaeda ever would, since you're nearer and a lot more likely to go out and act on your fantasies in a way that affects me or my family.

...forcibly stuffed with pork sausage (from both ends), made the subject of a dog & pony bukakke video, put in stocks on display in a New York City public urinal for a week, catheterized, the catheter hooked up to a IV drip of hydrochloric acid, and THAT allowed to drip until it kills them. :upyours:weirdo rape fantasies. :rolleyes:
Then do the same thing to every last one of their families, friends...So you are saying their wifes should be tortured, raped and executed, an the wifes of their friends too.

?

the anger is pointed at the west, i find that unfair but the US and us, the UK, have run in there for oil... i meant w.m.d's but it wasn't the peoples choice, most are not in favour of the war and there motives are understandable i guess.. but there actions are unforgivable if it involves the death of innocent people (that includes us too i guess)

I would like to personally round up each and every al Qaeda terrorist and kill them in a violent, painful and prolonged manner. Like, for example, cutting off their hands and legs, blinding them with hot iron brands, and letting them bleed to death (following the example of their precious "prophet"). Then do the same thing to every last one of their families, friends, supporters, allies, enablers, and spiritual advisors, with the exception of any minor children they may have. Those I would adopt out to be raised as Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, or for particularly hard cases, Moonies.

Does that answer your question?
Since you aren't a Muslim, then you would be following the example of Satan???

I refer to this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13375018&postcount=56).

Seriously, it's fucking disgusting how many people have these detailed, sick, sadistic sex fantasies about murder and torture.

People like you worry me far more than Al Qaeda ever would, since you're nearer and a lot more likely to go out and act on your fantasies in a way that affects me or my family.
It would appear that some people need professional help and lots of it?

i love how people are so ignorant as to think that somehow the whole of the middle east or muslim community are torturing psycho's heres a news flash EVERY MAIN RELIGION HAS EXTREAMISTS who kill in the name of god. and what realy makes me laugh is when people do half arsed quotes about stuff like the 'prophet' without knowing jack. yeah i know little about the muslim religion but im pretty sure he wasnt like the al-q

They're OK. :)

Since you aren't a Muslim, then you would be following the example of Satan???

The question was, What do you think of a-Q? That's what I think. Whether it's likely to be implemented is another question.

And no, I would just be giving them back their own.

Btw: if you're taking the position that the "prophet's" example is in fact Satanic, you'll get no argument from me :D

The question was, What do you think of a-Q? That's what I think. Whether it's likely to be implemented is another question.

And no, I would just be giving them back their own.

So by your own admission, you are just as bad as the members of Al Qaeda. Makes one wonder why you don't just join them.

First 5 I was fine on (noting that PMCs, while being non-governmental organisations employed essentially to repress, aren't exactly secret) but this one I'm going to have to rebuke. The lifestyles and attitudes of other people do influence the way anyone else's world works. This is a consequence of living in a reality of finite resource: to take from it is to deprive others of it. It might not seem like that in the US, where the labour that goes in to produce the massive amount of cheap goods is done in other countries far from where you can see it, but in order to maintain what you call a "liberal lifestyle" (in which I assume you include commercial consumerism) someone needs to provide you with the things you consume, and more often than not, the people that produce are poorly imbursed for the work that goes into the production.

Yes, the people that get the bad end of this arrangement are weak compared to the guys with guns that maintain the status quo to keep their own livelihoods guaranteed. They don't have the strength to dig themselves out of this through eloquence or through active uprising (some desperate ones blow themselves up, but that's generally not very effective). But is this wrong? Is it shameful to be frail, insecure and uncertain? I think not. If it were, there would not be a person alive today free from guilt. Nobody can overpower an army, nobody can state with honest conviction the ultimate origin and purpose of their own existence, and nobody can ever claim to know all there is to know, or even that that which they think they know is completely true. We are all of us plagued with weakness, and to deride and abuse others for their lack of strength is hypocracy of the greatest magnitude.
First, a couple of specific points:

1) Your assumption that my idea of a liberal lifestyle includes commercial consumerism is wrong. Thank you so much for making that pejorative and prejudicial assumption about what I meant instead of asking me what I meant (sarcasm). FYI, my idea of a liberal lifestyle is one that includes freedom of religion, speech, travel and association, promotes social egalitarianism, human rights, and civil rights for all people of all races, religions, beliefs, genders, etc, together with a tolerance of differences among people I share my surroundings with. It has absolutely nothing to do with commercialism or consumerism.

So, to the extent that you are so wildly off the mark about what I mean by "liberal lifestyle," we can assume that your objections are also wildly off the mark, as they are objecting to something I did not say.

2) What does PMC mean? You describe them as "employed essentially to repress." Are you referring to paramilitary organizations like Blackwater? (If so, what does the "C" stand for? I'm just curious to understand the letters.) If that is what you mean, then you are also off the mark. Blackwater are mercenaries. That particular company happens to be run by a good personal and political friend of Dick Cheney's. But Dick Cheney's personal circle of disgusting, murderous friends does not amount to an international secret cabal trying to destroy whatever it is conspiracy theorists thing secret cabals try to destroy. Sure, there's a good chance that Cheney would like to create such a cabal, but he hasn't yet, and pretending otherwise will not help prevent him from doing so.

If you don't understand the difference between mythical cabal stories like the Illuminati and crooked, mercenary, war-profiteer scams like Cheney and friends, go google Illuminati and read all the sources, not just the nutjob conspiracy sites.

Now, to respond to the main point of your objection:

I respect you as a poster on many issues, but on this one point, I will ask you to speak only for yourself about inner weakness and hypocrisy.

My personal morals and ethics require me to take responsibility for myself in all things, at all times. If I fail to stay on the path that I think is right, then the failing is mine and no one else's. I may feel fear or intimidation or oppression or social restrictions against me, I may be offended time and time again by what I see around me, and I may not be able to do anything to change the situation, but one thing I can do is maintain myself, my integrity. If there is a way of life that I think is right, it is my responsibility to stick to it, regardless of what anyone else in the world does. And that is what I do, no matter what.

I do not care if you don't believe me, and I am sorry if you do not like my attitude, but that is how I live, and the fact remains that I have zero respect for people who blame others for their own moral lapses. I do not believe that the mere presence of "liberal" people in the world is enough to shake the morals and faith of people who really, sincerely believe in their religion.

I stated specifically that cultural/economic imperialism is a legitimate concern. That is the kind of thing that creates the social pressures that destroy cultures which cannot adapt quickly enough to maintain their distinct identities. History shows many examples of it, and loss of cultural identity is almost always accompanied by human suffering, so when cultures meet and change each other, people must always be mindful of what they are doing.

But that is not what I am objecting to, when I tell the OP not to blame me for his failings. I am objecting to his assertion that my liberal beliefs are a threat to his life so great that he must support an agenda that wants to kill me. I say that his argument that I must die so that he can live is bullshit, and I challenge him, you or anyone else to show otherwise. He comes up with an argument that includes the assertion that my way of living -- all the way over here in North America, having nothing at all do with him in Indonesia -- is so bad for him that I deserve death to make me stop it, and you say I should accept that as reasonable?

Let me explain this very clearly: I will not cease to exist just to suit him. I will not become something other than what I am just to suit him, either. All I will do for him -- and I will be happy to do it, eager to do it; and I bet millions of other people would be too -- is to leave him alone. But for that to work, he would have to leave me alone, too. And that means he would have to abandon groups like al-Qaeda who don't want to leave me alone, but want to come to my country and kill me. If he cannot bring himself to leave me and my kind alone, then he will be the one perpetuating and escalating whatever problems he thinks come from dealing with us.

He doesn't want to deal with us? Then let him stop dealing with us. Let him stop buying our goods, stop letting our tourists into his country, get his government to stop entering treaties with our government. Let him leave us alone. Let him take his complaints to the people who are really causing his problems, and leave the rest of the world -- all the common private citizens who are not Muslims or government officials or imperialists -- out of it.

But don't sit here and tell me that just by being a non-Muslim in North America, I'm somehow making it impossible for him to live a Muslim life in Indonesia. That is a crock of bull I will not accept.

I would like to personally round up each and every al Qaeda terrorist and kill them in a violent, painful and prolonged manner. Like, for example, cutting off their hands and legs, blinding them with hot iron brands, and letting them bleed to death (following the example of their precious "prophet"). Then do the same thing to every last one of their families, friends, supporters, allies, enablers, and spiritual advisors, with the exception of any minor children they may have. Those I would adopt out to be raised as Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, or for particularly hard cases, Moonies.

Does that answer your question?

Well....if you'd just rate how aroused you were sexually when you were typing that...a number between one and ten...then I think we can wrap it up.

i love how people are so ignorant as to think that somehow the whole of the middle east or muslim community are torturing psycho's heres a news flash EVERY MAIN RELIGION HAS EXTREAMISTS who kill in the name of god.

"Some animals are more equal than others".

and what realy makes me laugh is when people do half arsed quotes about stuff like the 'prophet' without knowing jack. yeah i know little about the muslim religion but im pretty sure he wasnt like the al-q

Apparently you know less than you think:

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/hadeeth/bukhari/082.htm

Pay particular attention to numbers 794, 796 and 797, where the "prophet" ORDERED the dismemberment and death, and 795, where he did it himself.

Prophetic behavior, indeed. Not to mention a role model for a-Q.

Well....if you'd just rate how aroused you were sexually when you were typing that...a number between one and ten...then I think we can wrap it up.

Leave it to someone like you to try injecting sex into such a discussion. Get your mind out of the gutter.

Originally Posted by New Mitanni
The question was, What do you think of a-Q? That's what I think. Whether it's likely to be implemented is another question.

And no, I would just be giving them back their own.
So by your own admission, you are just as bad as the members of Al Qaeda. Makes one wonder why you don't just join them.
Seriously, I do not see any difference at all between people like New Mitanni (and some famous neocons) and al-Qaeda. They are all selfish, thoughtless, murderous, sick, twisted, ego-driven bastards, in my opinion. And they are all my enemies, because their way of doing things create equal threats to my personal safety.

Or maybe it would be more accurate to say I am their enemy.

"Some animals are more equal than others".



Apparently you know less than you think:

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/hadeeth/bukhari/082.htm

Pay particular attention to numbers 794, 796 and 797, where the "prophet" ORDERED the dismemberment and death, and 795, where he did it himself.

Prophetic behavior, indeed. Not to mention a role model for a-Q.

As opposed to God, who is a great role model for his followers.
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/who-has-killed-more-satan-or-god.html
killings
God 2,270,365+
Satan 10
Leave it to someone like you to try injecting sex into such a discussion. Get your mind out of the gutter.
Pot, kettle, black.

Leave it to someone like you to try injecting sex into such a discussion. Get your mind out of the gutter.


Inter-esting,

What or whom is 'someone like me'? I'm curious to know...I know, of course. Its what and how you know thats the puzzle.

I merely noted the detail and graphic - pornographic - nature of your description and drew a not unreasonable conclusion.

As for minds in the gutter, well I'll just quote you again here and let others judge for themselves -
I would like to personally round up each and every al Qaeda terrorist and kill them in a violent, painful and prolonged manner. Like, for example, cutting off their hands and legs, blinding them with hot iron brands, and letting them bleed to death (following the example of their precious "prophet"). Then do the same thing to every last one of their families, friends, supporters, allies, enablers, and spiritual advisors, with the exception of any minor children they may have. Those I would adopt out to be raised as Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, or for particularly hard cases, Moonies.

If Al'Qaeda was linked to raising global temperatures then you can be sure New Mitanni would be singing a different tune about "Nonexistent Global Warming."

Apparently you know less than you think:

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/hadeeth/bukhari/082.htm

Pay particular attention to numbers 794, 796 and 797, where the "prophet" ORDERED the dismemberment and death, and 795, where he did it himself.

Prophetic behavior, indeed. Not to mention a role model for a-Q.


Go read the stuff Moses did in the Old Testament.

In particular, read about Midian and what happened to those poor folks. Geoncide and Sexual Slavery (for the young unwed virginal girls) anyone?

I think Al Qaida is pretty cool guy, eh kills westerners and doesn't afraid of anything.

Inter-esting,

What or whom is 'someone like me'? I'm curious to know...I know, of course. Its what and how you know thats the puzzle.

Been exposed to enough of your posts to know, pal.

I merely noted the detail and graphic - pornographic - nature of your description and drew a not unreasonable conclusion.

As for minds in the gutter, well I'll just quote you again here and let others judge for themselves -

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861737876/pornography.html

por·nog·ra·phy [ pawr nóggrəfee ]

noun

Definition:

1. sexually explicit material: films, magazines, writings, photographs, or other materials that are sexually explicit and intended to cause sexual arousal

2. sexual images industry: the production or sale of sexually explicit films, magazines, or other materials

[Mid-19th century. Via French< Greek pornographos "writing about prostitutes" < pornē "prostitute"]

So on this point, as on so many others, you really don't know what you're talking about.

Go read the stuff Moses did in the Old Testament.

In particular, read about Midian and what happened to those poor folks. Geoncide and Sexual Slavery (for the young unwed virginal girls) anyone?

Irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

Btw: when you find something on point in the New Testament, let me know.

Of course, you won't, because it doesn't exist.

I think Al Qaida is pretty cool guy, eh kills westerners and doesn't afraid of anything.

"Doesn't afraid of anything [sic]"?

Of course. That's why they bravely attack undefended buildings, valiantly kill helpless captives, and intrepidly hide in holes in the ground in Waziristan.

I think Al Qaida is pretty cool guy, eh kills westerners and doesn't afraid of anything.
I made this joke already!
Irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

Btw: when you find something on point in the New Testament, let me know.

Of course, you won't, because it doesn't exist.

Care to explain why the Old Testament and the copious amounts of violence in it don't count?

"Doesn't afraid of anything [sic]"?

Of course. That's why they bravely attack undefended buildings, valiantly kill helpless captives, and intrepidly hide in holes in the ground in Waziristan.

Ya, as I said eh doesnt afraid of no buildings, holes or helpless captives.

I made this joke already!


Damn it, though it's quite hard to be original whilst using /b/ memes.

Irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

Btw: when you find something on point in the New Testament, let me know.

Of course, you won't, because it doesn't exist.

Typical Christian response.


You cant just ignore half your own God damned holy book. Sorry, it doesnt work that way. Otherwise Muslims can ignore the bad parts of their book.


Either both of you can or none of you can.

Care to explain why the Old Testament and the copious amounts of violence in it don't count?



Youve never heard that BS Christian response before?

Typical Christian response.


You cant just ignore half your own God damned holy book. Sorry, it doesnt work that way. Otherwise Muslims can ignore the bad parts of their book.


Either both of you can or none of you can.

To be fair though, it is completely irrelevant to whether or not Islam is a shitty theology.

"Doesn't afraid of anything [sic]"?

Of course. That's why they bravely attack undefended buildings, valiantly kill helpless captives, and intrepidly hide in holes in the ground in Waziristan.

Someone is evidently unfamiliar with that meme.

I think [name of the game, movie, etc the person is from] is a pretty cool guy. eh [whatever the person does] and doesn't afraid of anything.

For example: I think Metroid Prime is a pretty cool guy. eh kills aliens and doesn't afraid of anything.

Damn it, though it's quite hard to be original whilst using /b/ memes.

Originality? On my /nsg/?

To be fair though, it is completely irrelevant to whether or not Islam is a shitty theology.




Not really. Its a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. As far as Im concerned if you believe a theology that has violent tendencies, you have no right to critisize other theologies for their violent tendencies.

Not really. Its a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. As far as Im concerned if you believe a theology that has violent tendencies, you have no right to critisize other theologies for their violent tendencies.

Especially considering Islam is an Abrahamic religion. It speaks more of a problem with the source codes than the particular application itself.

Wo! No Sexual things in here! However let us continue the Religion-Political Debate.

How can YOU change my way of life? My school -I just know it a month ago- has copied it's rules from one of the school in USA. It makes me sick!

And another example: Your way of life has force it's way to many young'uns here. They make me sick, psycho they are. Imagine, a ring in the nose? astagfirullah?!

Many things are affecting us both. Just what I type here can very well change your future, and so do the other way...

There is nothing YOU can do to claim that your culture didn't affect me!

Wo! No Sexual things in here! However let us continue the Religion-Political Debate.

How can YOU change my way of life? My school -I just know it a month ago- has copied it's rules from one of the school in USA. It makes me sick!

And another example: Your way of life has force it's way to many young'uns here. They make me sick, psycho they are. Imagine, a ring in the nose? astagfirullah?!

Many things are affecting us both. Just what I type here can very well change your future, and so do the other way...

There is nothing YOU can do to claim that your culture didn't affect me!

Oh no! A ring in someone's nose! Your entire culuture is going to crash to the ground!

And what's wrong with US-based rules? Less women-bashing now or somesuch?

Many things are affecting us both. Just what I type here can very well change your future, and so do the other way...

lulz, it appears you don't understand how NSG (and the interweb) works.

NO!! it's just more corruption, etc etc etc!! My people is not ready for this kind of war. They need to be armed and trained first. But what did the Corrupt Government says? "Let them be stupid and must subject to us, the Ones who get rich from Corruption (!)" We need to at least tell the farmer/other producers the rules, so they will not get poor (now it is happening!!)

And Hamilay, I understand! if not, I'll just SPAM here from my first saw of this forums!


Ups, sorry about the the angry words...

What do you think of Al-Qaida?
Just to know what people here think about them.

I despise them, like I despise all terrorists.

Wo! No Sexual things in here! However let us continue the Religion-Political Debate.

How can YOU change my way of life? My school -I just know it a month ago- has copied it's rules from one of the school in USA. It makes me sick!
So go to a different school.

Or petition and pressure your school authority to change it.

And who put those rules in? The USA or your government? I'll bet it was your government. So why are you blaming us for their action?

And another example: Your way of life has force it's way to many young'uns here. They make me sick, psycho they are. Imagine, a ring in the nose? astagfirullah?!
Heh, yeah. You can blame the Arabs and Indians for that nose ring thing -- yes, even the Muslim ones. It was imported to the West from that part of the world.

Yet again, your ignorance of reality causes you to make bad decisions.

Many things are affecting us both. Just what I type here can very well change your future, and so do the other way...

There is nothing YOU can do to claim that your culture didn't affect me!
But you have the power to control how you are changed, in what direction you are changed. You control your life, not us.

For instance, you chose to ally yourself with murderers and support an agenda of aggressive violence and war against unarmed civilians. There were lots of ways you could have responded to Western cultural influence, but you chose that way. Your choice. Nobody forced you into it. So that makes it your fault, too.

NO!! it's just more corruption, etc etc etc!! My people is not ready for this kind of war. They need to be armed and trained first. But what did the Corrupt Government says? "Let them be stupid and must subject to us, the Ones who get rich from Corruption (!)" We need to at least tell the farmer/other producers the rules, so they will not get poor (now it is happening!!)

And Hamilay, I understand! if not, I'll just SPAM here from my first saw of this forums!


Ups, sorry about the the angry words...
Right, and which corrupt government said that? Oh, that's right it was your corrupt government. Because your government is the only one that matters in your country. Regardless of what my government might say or do, aside from actually attacking your nation, it doesn't matter unless your government agrees to it.

You don't want us in your house? Close the door. Tell your leaders to stop asking us to come in, stop doing business with us, etc. Like I said before, get your own life in order and leave ours alone.

How can YOU change my way of life? My school -I just know it a month ago- has copied it's rules from one of the school in USA. It makes me sick!

Is it fault of the USA, or your school's fault?


And another example: Your way of life has force it's way to many young'uns here. They make me sick, psycho they are. Imagine, a ring in the nose? astagfirullah?!
Again... fault of the USA, or fault of those who chose to behave like that?


Only those who allow themselves to be brainwashed get brainwashed.

And another example: Your way of life has force it's way to many young'uns here. They make me sick, psycho they are. Imagine, a ring in the nose?
How is a piece of jewellery in any way immoral?

Been exposed to enough of your posts to know, pal..

We aren't pals, buddy.

And that isn't an explanation, merely a statement saying that you know, not what you know (which would be fuck all about fuck all, at an educated guess).


http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861737876/pornography.html
So on this point, as on so many others, you really don't know what you're talking about.

So theres no such thing as sadistic pornography? Hmmmm.

We aren't pals, buddy.

You have trouble detecting sarcasm, don't you, buddy.

So theres no such thing as sadistic pornography? Hmmmm.

Not without explicit sexual content.

Pwn'd.

Well, true it is my schools/brothers and sisters fault...

But they originated from yours!

Kool-Aid Drinkers


Why? I mean I don't buy Kool-Aid but I've tasted it and its not that bad. Your a hater!

And another example: Your way of life has force it's way to many young'uns here. They make me sick, psycho they are. Imagine, a ring in the nose?

Nose rings aren't an American, or even Western, invention:

http://www.gradeatattoos.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=7

Looks like you'll have to use some other excuse to hate us :p

And as for ways of life that make people sick, whenever I have to see some female walking around in a black potato sack, that makes me sick. And be assured, that way of life will never be forced on anyone I'm related to.

What the hell? What more?
Hmm, so what example I'll give to them now...

But they originated from yours!
So?

Gunpowder may have originated from China, but that doesn't mean it's the Chinese' fault if I shoot someone.

But even more importantly...how do you justify a right not to be offended? You said it makes you sick when people do things you don't like - how does that translate into a right for you to stop them? What if they don't like your intense religious beliefs? Or the way you wear your hair, for that matter? Does that give them the right to force you to behave differently? If Islam were to make me sick, would you be happy for the government to start outlawing Islam to make me happy?

In reality, there is no right not to be offended. You don't have to wear a nosering, so if you don't like it, don't. It's your life, you live it like you want it. What people around you want to do with their lives doesn't stop you doing that. It's like I said before: you decide whether you get to heaven, they decide whether they do. And the latter is none of your concern.

True true... But.
It is my choice to wheter to include the latter to my concern!

Oh, and I blame the Tionghoa for it. For the evil gunpowder. But, I like gunpowder! (eh>)

It is my choice to wheter to include the latter to my concern!
Then it would be my choice too. I am certainly not a fan of strong religious beliefs, since I'm a quite committed sceptic, rationalist and atheist.

So if I choose to include your choices in the things that concern me, would that give me the right to interfere with you practicing Islam?

Well, may be?

They blow.

That's pretty much all I have to say.

Well, true it is my schools/brothers and sisters fault...

But they originated from yours!
I see, so because you and your neighbors cannot agree on one way to live, I have to die?

Are you surprised that I'm not buying into your argument? As I said, it is nothing but a list of your failures that you would like to blame on someone else.

OK OK OK, back on topic people!
I surrendered...
::Fell Ashamed and want to do the Harakiri::

Now, if somehow the Buddhist (Easternist) somehow take over your homelands, edit your culture, make your people a fool, would you not take arms againts them?

Now, if somehow the Buddhist (Easternist) somehow take over your homelands, edit your culture, make your people a fool, would you not take arms againts them?
I know that I wouldn't. My "homeland" (Germany) was first destroyed and then taken over by the Western powers in WWII, and has since then become Americanised to some degree and has generally lost a lot of unique cultural aspects simply because people stopped caring about them.

I don't care. Very few people do, and pretty much no one thinks any of this is a reason to start hurting people.

There is a certain confidence and self-belief involved in being able to say "I don't care what everybody else does, I will do my thing". I believe that I have it, I'm not so sure you do.

I have a shotgun. Terrorists are strangely allergic to lead when delivered at high velocity and in high doses. If they have the balls to try to take the "free world" by force, let them try. Let's arm pilots. Let's allow the airlines set up a training/licensing program for frequent fliers who wish to carry. most problems then become smaller or nonexistent.

OK OK OK, back on topic people!
I surrendered...
::Fell Ashamed and want to do the Harakiri::
I don't believe you.

If you had really surrendered, you would not still be trying to defend your support of al-Qaeda by trying to make us say we would do the same for ourselves. If you really felt ashamed, you would apologize and be quiet.

But you're not doing either of those things.

Now, if somehow the Buddhist (Easternist) somehow take over your homelands, edit your culture, make your people a fool, would you not take arms againts them?
No, I would not, if they were not trying to kill me as part of the process. I have several reasons:

1) "Homeland" is a word that means almost nothing to me. My people left their homelands (5 of them) several generations ago to come to the US. What is my homeland? The USA? Italy? Germany? France? Russia? Poland? My people are from all those places. They've been migrating around since the Middle Ages (according to my aunt who is into family history), always for practical reasons. And if it becomes practical for me to leave the US, I'll follow tradition and move on, just like they did. My "homeland" is wherever I happen to be living at the moment, and one is just as good as another. I am not going to commit myself to endless war over a chunk of real estate.

2) Editing my culture? Again, you are out of touch with reality. All cultures that survive get edited. They are getting edited constantly, just by the passage of time and changing circumstances. Adapt or die, is the name of the game. If you think you can freeze your culture in some kind of "perfect" form forever, you are going to be disappointed. If the editing does not come from outside, then it will come from inside. Study history if you don't believe me.

As for my culture, the US embraces change, creates change, is always editing itself. That IS our culture. We are all immigrants from somewhere else. We are all building something new out of something old. Our ancestors came to this place TO change our selves, our cultures. And remember, the US was created by revolution. Our culture is a culture of revolution, change and new-ness. Even a lot of Americans forget that sometimes, but it is part of how we live.

So consider that, and ask yourself again why Americans do not fear change the way you do.

And if you think editing cultures is bad, ask yourself why you should have any right to want to force us to stop being agents of change? It is our culture, after all. If you have a right to your cultures, surely we also have a right to ours. If you don't like the effect our culture has on yours, then stay separate from us.

3) How would anything you describe "make [my] people a fool"? Who do you think would be laughing at us if we embraced a Buddhist culture or Buddhist government? What possible difference would it make to whether we, as human beings, are worth respect? And if we lost a war against Buddhists (highly unlikely, since Buddhists do not typically wage war), so what? That's how life goes -- ups and downs. If someone else gets the upper hand for a while, you just adapt and carry on, doing your own thing as best you can, which is no different from any other situation.

4) See, a big problem with your whole argument is that you are not showing me how anything that is happening in your life is doing harm that you cannot fix on your own. Your culture is changing. OK, so adapt to it so that you can follow your religion in this new situation. Foreign influences are coming in that you don't like. OK, so isolate yourself from them, keep them out of your life, petition your government about it, if you want to. You have not shown me anything that demands a violent response. Everything you have talked about can be handled without violence. So your claim that you have no choice is nonsense. You do have choices.

If some foreign power actually invaded my country, with their military, as an act of war, I would first try to escape, because I see no reason to spill human blood over pieces of land. If they stopped me from leaving, tried to force me against my will into their way of life, threatening to kill me or send me to prison if I didn't go along, I would resist in any way I could that did not include killing people, because when I look at my choices, I reject the violent ones.

But if some foreign immigrants moved to my country and brought their culture with them, why would that be a problem for me? If foreign businesses came and sold their goods in my country, why would that be a problem for me? Even if I was surrounded in my own town by people speaking another language, eating different food, worshipping a different god, wearing different clothes and with different ideas of good/bad behavior, so what? I live that way right now in the US, but I have no trouble keeping to my own ways, regardless of what my neighbors do.

I have a shotgun. Terrorists are strangely allergic to lead when delivered at high velocity and in high doses. If they have the balls to try to take the "free world" by force, let them try. Let's arm pilots. Let's allow the airlines set up a training/licensing program for frequent fliers who wish to carry. most problems then become smaller or nonexistent.

Ooh..ooh...I am a platinum elite member...can I get an AK ?

If you had really surrendered, you would not still be trying to defend your support of (insert any famous enemy nation/group here) by trying to make us say we would do the same for ourselves. If you really felt ashamed, you would apologize and be quiet.

But you're not doing either of those things.this attitude reminds me of my dear leader :D

I don't believe you.

If you had really surrendered, you would not still be trying to defend your support of al-Qaeda by trying to make us say we would do the same for ourselves. If you really felt ashamed, you would apologize and be quiet.

But you're not doing either of those things.


Hem, who said I feel ashamed of defending Al-Qaida? I feel ashamed that I only launched answers that can be kicked by ants - who can think, ask, tell, and brilliant-.

Anyway I'm not FLAMING, OK...?
Is it OK?


[1) "Homeland" is a word that means almost nothing to me. My people left their homelands (5 of them) several generations ago to come to the US. What is my homeland? The USA? Italy? Germany? France? Russia? Poland? My people are from all those places. They've been migrating around since the Middle Ages (according to my aunt who is into family history), always for practical reasons. And if it becomes practical for me to leave the US, I'll follow tradition and move on, just like they did. My "homeland" is wherever I happen to be living at the moment, and one is just as good as another. I am not going to commit myself to endless war over a chunk of real estate.

See, that is a difference between us. I, and my people, are agrarians, farmer, and stay here since our culture began. We, have certain value that has something to do with our stubborness to let free of our lands to some anynomius strange-foreigner.


2) Editing my culture? Again, you are out of touch with reality. All cultures that survive get edited. They are getting edited constantly, just by the passage of time and changing circumstances. Adapt or die, is the name of the game. If you think you can freeze your culture in some kind of "perfect" form forever, you are going to be disappointed. If the editing does not come from outside, then it will come from inside. Study history if you don't believe me.

Yeah, but we want a choice whether to edit our culture with this, or that. Not like now...

How would anything you describe "make [my] people a fool"? Who do you think would be laughing at us if we embraced a Buddhist culture or Buddhist government? What possible difference would it make to whether we, as human beings, are worth respect? And if we lost a war against Buddhists (highly unlikely, since Buddhists do not typically wage war), so what? That's how life goes -- ups and downs. If someone else gets the upper hand for a while, you just adapt and carry on, doing your own thing as best you can, which is no different from any other situation.

Another of our difference. We have some kind of honour values here (maybe only on the Noble Javanese?) that if something like that happening, we more like to die honourably than live in vain

4) See, a big problem with your whole argument is that you are not showing me how anything that is happening in your life is doing harm that you cannot fix on your own. Your culture is changing. OK, so adapt to it so that you can follow your religion in this new situation. Foreign influences are coming in that you don't like. OK, so isolate yourself from them, keep them out of your life, petition your government about it, if you want to. You have not shown me anything that demands a violent response. Everything you have talked about can be handled without violence. So your claim that you have no choice is nonsense. You do have choices.

But we have certain values here that make us can't do some choices (example: Killing self)


If some foreign power actually invaded my country, with their military, as an act of war, I would first try to escape, because I see no reason to spill human blood over pieces of land. If they stopped me from leaving, tried to force me against my will into their way of life, threatening to kill me or send me to prison if I didn't go along, I would resist in any way I could that did not include killing people, because when I look at my choices, I reject the violent ones.

I would say just started a guirella warfare against them :grins:

But if some foreign immigrants moved to my country and brought their culture with them, why would that be a problem for me? If foreign businesses came and sold their goods in my country, why would that be a problem for me? Even if I was surrounded in my own town by people speaking another language, eating different food, worshipping a different god, wearing different clothes and with different ideas of good/bad behavior, so what? I live that way right now in the US, but I have no trouble keeping to my own ways, regardless of what my neighbors do.

In liberal life, maybe. But here, everything interact, and after interact influence other way (thinking, value, etc) whether it is extreme, or doesn't visible be cause it's small mass/diameter/volume(?).

OK, I just confess my unknowns to YOUR culture. I provide example, debate, fight, from what I saw here, practical here, proven here...

Yeah, but we want a choice whether to edit our culture with this, or that. Not like now...
That choice has never existed in the way you think. When Islam came to Java for example, there were two things that happened: some people were probably forced to profess allegiance to Islam by their rulers - and other people chose to become Muslim because they genuinely wanted to. And then many people chose not to become Muslim, and so today on Java there are a lot of Buddhists and Hindus and other faiths around.

There was no collective choice - there never is. People make choices whether to live a certain way. What we end up calling culture is just the overall result of all these individual little decisions.

You don't get to choose how your culture is edited, other than through your own behaviour. That's nobody's fault, that's just the nature of the beast.

Another of our difference. We have some kind of honour values here (maybe only on the Noble Javanese?) that if something like that happening, we more like to die honourably than live in vain
Fun Fact: The noble Javanese got soundly defeated by European colonial powers, but rather than commit mass suicide, they somehow got used to it.

That's what happens. Wars are lost, nations destroyed. But people live on regardless.

In liberal life, maybe. But here, everything interact, and after interact influence other way (thinking, value, etc) whether it is extreme, or doesn't visible be cause it's small mass/diameter/volume(?).
Of course things interact. But that doesn't change a thing about his argument.

Unless you are claiming that because someone opened a McDonald's near you, that somehow interacts with your brain and makes you do stuff you don't actually choose to do, of course.

Fact of the matter is that there is no such thing as "liberal" life. There is only one life, and it's the same basic thing for everybody. Yes, it's hard to be a fundamentalist Muslim if nobody around you is. Nobody's watching your every move, nobody drags you to pray all the time, nobody starts throwing stuff at your wife if she doesn't dress the right way.

And that's the real reason so many people get annoyed with western influences: it makes you rely on yourself rather than on social oppression to follow whatever moral code you think is right. And if you're worried about your own faith, or perseverance, or commitment, then a fundamentalist theocracy might just be enough to keep you in check.

Sorry mate, but God will know. And I want to bet that He'd appreciate it a whole lot more if you actually were confronted with other lifestyles and choices, but still chose His way.

And that's the real reason so many people get annoyed with western influences: it makes you rely on yourself rather than on social oppression to follow whatever moral code you think is right. And if you're worried about your own faith, or perseverance, or commitment, then a fundamentalist theocracy might just be enough to keep you in check.


Wow, you get the point of all my posts (which is my self didn't know...)

Speak carefully. NSA is listening.

Hem, who said I feel ashamed of defending Al-Qaida? I feel ashamed that I only launched answers that can be kicked by ants - who can think, ask, tell, and brilliant-.

Anyway I'm not FLAMING, OK...?
Is it OK?
You said you surrendered. I assumed you meant you surrendered the argument. Obviously, you meant something different.

And yes, you are flaming, or coming close to it. And no, it is not OK, but I don't really care anyway.



See, that is a difference between us. I, and my people, are agrarians, farmer, and stay here since our culture began. We, have certain value that has something to do with our stubborness to let free of our lands to some anynomius strange-foreigner.
Like I have said more than once, take your complaint to your government. They are the ones who let us in.

And if all you are interested in is the land you live on, which is in Indonesia, how do you justify supporting an Arab group from Saudi Arabia that leaves its own land to attack ours? They are not protecting your land. They are only trying to build a war that might make our military come to your land. They are making your situation worse.


Yeah, but we want a choice whether to edit our culture with this, or that. Not like now...
I don't want to edit your culture at all. I don't want anything to do with your culture. The majority of Americans don't even know your culture exists. Are you complaining because when you show off to the world how you treat women and minorities, we say that we think it's bad? So what? What do you care what we think?

Are you complaining that other Indonesians agree with us that some parts of your way are bad? Well, take it up with them, like I said. Do not come to the US and blame us and attack us because your neighbors in Indonesia don't like you.

Oh, and another thing: When it comes to foreign influences editing cultures, let me ask you a question: Was the Prophet a native of Indonesia?

No, he was not, was he? In fact, I do believe he was an Arab. Not an Indonesian.

And I also believe Islam is foreign to Indonesia and was imported to it by foreigners who had a different culture.

And I also believe that a lot of Islamic religious culture was different from native Indonesian culture, and forced change upon Indonesian culture. In other words, Islam is a foreign invader that edited Indonesian culture.

You know what that means, Java-Minang? It means that you have a lot of freaking nerve. It means that you yourself have edited your culture, joined up with a foreign influence that changed the way your people live. Yet you claim to be protecting some Indonesian tradition from being changed. That is just another part of your whole argument that does not fit with reality.


Another of our difference. We have some kind of honour values here (maybe only on the Noble Javanese?) that if something like that happening, we more like to die honourably than live in vain
I will ignore your racist little mini-flame there, and just point out that you still fail to show me how you have no other way but violence to solve your problems. Apparently, you are not interested in solving your problems. You are only interested in using them as an excuse to be violent and suicidal. Just like your heroes, al-Qaeda -- murderers wrapped up in a cause that really means nothing to them.



But we have certain values here that make us can't do some choices (example: Killing self)
I call that a lie.

If you really had a value that made it wrong to kill yourself, you would not support a group that sends out suicide bombers. You would not make martyrs and heroes out of people who set out to kill themselves. That is the biggest lie of radical Islamic terrorists. They break one of the most basic values of Islam but claim that they are living by the values of Islam. They are liars and hypocrites.


I would say just started a guirella warfare against them :grins:
What are you grinning about? Do you think you said something funny?

You would start your war because you choose violence. Acknowledge it: You prefer violence over peace. Everything you say makes this clear.


In liberal life, maybe. But here, everything interact, and after interact influence other way (thinking, value, etc) whether it is extreme, or doesn't visible be cause it's small mass/diameter/volume(?).
So, what you are saying is that you simply cannot tolerate the mere existence of people who are different from you? You are saying that the simple fact that other, different people exist in the world is enough to make it impossible for you to live your life, and that is why you declare war on them and kill them? Is that what you are saying?

OK, I just confess my unknowns to YOUR culture. I provide example, debate, fight, from what I saw here, practical here, proven here...
You confess that you do not know my culture. Does that mean that you will now stop insulting us, telling us what we want in life, telling us how we live, and saying other things that you obviously don't really know?

OK, Java-Minang, so the spread of American culture is such a threat that it is justified to murder innocent civilians?

Just assassinate Bush and the whole organization has no point of existence.

OK, Java-Minang, so the spread of American culture is such a threat that it is justified to murder innocent civilians?

They don't like American political influence in Middle East.

Notice everyone attacking Java is using facts from America's point of view.

Many do not look at America's point of view like Americans do.

Just assassinate Bush and the whole organization has no point of existence.

Thats retarded.

Did America grind to a halt when McKinley was assassinated?
Kennedy?

When the Romanoffs were dragged off and later shot, did Russia have the same problem?


No.
It was just replaced instantly with another "point of existance".

Thats retarded.

Did America grind to a halt when McKinley was assassinated?
Kennedy?

When the Romanoffs were dragged off and later shot, did Russia have the same problem?


No.
It was just replaced instantly with another "point of existance".

Did you read what I wrote? I never said anything about America grinding to a halt.

I'm saying that I think al-Qaida's mission is to stop Bush's idiotic campaign to "free the Middle East."

Just have him assassinated and the whole organization has no point of existing.

Did you read what I wrote? I never said anything about America grinding to a halt.

I'm saying that I think al-Qaida's mission is to stop Bush's idiotic campaign to "free the Middle East."

Just have him assassinated and the whole organization has no point of existing.

I dont think Bush has any impact on AQ's plans at all.

Whatever Bush's true plan is, if he were killed, especially by a middle easterner radical, he would become a MARTYR, and his plan would continue.

If he himself were taken out, it would justify everything he has been saying for the last 8 years. Bush is very unpopular as of now, but if he were killed by some Iraqi terrorist-ninja/whatever, and the currently very divided public opinion in america, would suddenly unite.
Assassinations tend to do that. Even ones we dont like.


Its a hydra.
Cut off one head, three grow back.

I dont think Bush has any impact on AQ's plans at all.

Whatever Bush's true plan is, if he were killed, especially by a middle easterner radical, he would become a MARTYR, and his plan would continue.

If he himself were taken out, it would justify everything he has been saying for the last 8 years. Bush is very unpopular as of now, but if he were killed by some Iraqi terrorist-ninja/whatever, and the currently very divided public opinion in america, would suddenly unite.
Assassinations tend to do that. Even ones we dont like.


Its a hydra.
Cut off one head, three grow back.

Yeah, but then al-Qaida opposes just that.

Yeah, but then al-Qaida opposes just that.

With what?

Can you imagine what could happen if an American president were assassinated by a foriegn terrorist, and a newly crusading nation who happens to be the lone remaining global military superpower, is now demanding all of its allies unlimited access to hunt terrorist cells within thier borders?

Who would say no?

Pakistan?

With the problems theyve had since thier own assassination a few weeks ago, they would agree pretty quick.

Where would an AQ member be safe after that kind of thing?

With what?

Can you imagine what could happen if an American president were assassinated by a foriegn terrorist, and a newly crusading nation who happens to be the lone remaining global military superpower, is now demanding all of its allies unlimited access to hunt terrorist cells within thier borders?

Who would say no?

Pakistan?

With the problems theyve had since thier own assassination a few weeks ago, they would agree pretty quick.

Where would an AQ member be safe after that kind of thing?

Pakistan's assassination killed someone not even in Pakistan's government. Just an opposition leader.

Ooh..ooh...I am a platinum elite member...can I get an AK ?

I think an AK would be too bulky for carry on luggage. Remember, this is a passenger jet, where space is premium and sardine conditions are common. You would be better off with an Ingram or Uzi since they're smaller and easier to move around.

Pakistan's assassination killed someone not even in Pakistan's government. Just an opposition leader.

Bhutto, yeah. Whats your point?

My point is, assassinating Bush is the LAST thing anyone smart would do.

Did you read what I wrote? I never said anything about America grinding to a halt.

I'm saying that I think al-Qaida's mission is to stop Bush's idiotic campaign to "free the Middle East."

Just have him assassinated and the whole organization has no point of existing.
On the other hand, maybe that isn't al-Qaeda's mission at all. In fact, I kind of doubt that it is, since al-Qaida existed before Bush became president.

Hm, I wonder then what other possible mission could al-Qaeda have. Here, let me propose this one, which I already proposed back on page 19 (EDIT: page 2, actually; it's post 19):

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13372573&postcount=19

Based on Osama bin Laden's own public statements from the end of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan through 2000, we can see (if we bother to look) that al-Qaeda's true mission is to provoke international warfare and keep it going forever. Getting rid of Bush will not change that. Even getting rid of the US altogether will not change that.

Maybe making bin Laden king of Arabia and making Arabia the sole world superpower under Sharia law would change it, but apparently we are nowhere close to that happening.

When it comes to al-Qaeda, Bush is a footnote. The Bush problem and the al-Qaeda problem are two separate things that just happen to dovetail with each other. But solving one will not solve the other.

I'm saying that I think al-Qaida's mission is to stop Bush's idiotic campaign to "free the Middle East."
Not at all.

Al-Qaida, and other groups willing or not to use violence to acheive ther end, wish a Caliphate to be established. They want Islamic Sharia law to rule in, presumeably, all states. The members of al-Qaida, following the techings of Sayyid Qutb among others, believe that any non-Muslim is a legitimate target for violence aimed at establishing a Caliphate and that any Muslim that does not share their beliefs or has been 'converted' to non-Islamic thinking, non-authoritarian politics, Western customs, etc., can be regarded as a non-Muslim, and is thus a legitimate target.

It's some pretty fucked up argumentation.

Luckily, (and perhaps predictably) this way of thinking has not caught on in a big way among Muslim populations; indeed, most seem positively disinclined to follow such thought. A good example of this is the public reaction to the violence of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood (a group that included many later mambers of al-Qaida) in the 50's and 60's.

Most folks simply don't buy their BS.

I dont think Bush has any impact on AQ's plans at all.


No, why? Bush's foreign policy actually helps A-Q's recruitement plans.
"See what the evil western infidels are doing to the Umma?"...

The gods themselves... :rolleyes:

No, why? Bush's foreign policy actually helps A-Q's recruitement plans.
"See what the evil western infidels are doing to the Umma?"...

The gods themselves... :rolleyes:

Its a conspiracy! :D

I hate Al-qaida, but i hate the US government too (war against terror, bullsh*t, 45 million americans have no health-care, and bush doesn't give a monkeyf*** about them, that's terrorism)

I suggest doing to them what I suggest doing to any violent/extremist group. Neuter them and throw them into the general population in prison.

For those wondering the following are on my suggested Neutering List
Terrorists
KKK
Neo-Nazis
Child Predators
Westboro Baptist Church (They need to stop inbreeding)
E.L.F. (Eco Terrorists)
People who think that Rosie O'Donell is smart
Same for the above only replace Donald Trump
People who fail to win a Darwin Award through sheer incompetence (It's happened)
Kool-Aid Drinkers
People Who Support Dog Fighting
Michael Vick
Michael Jackson
People who think that Paris Hilton/Britney Spears/Lindsey Lohan are good role models
Stupid people in general

I agree with you 100%, just add ALF and PETA to that list too, and repeated rapists and murderers who cannot be rehabilitated, and Religious fundamentalists of all spectrums

and instead of neutering them, put them all in the holds of old decommissioned ships, sail those ships out over the deepest darkest trenches of the ocean, and sink them. The cheapest, quickest and most humane way of executing the whole lot of them

Hold on, how do you measure stupidity?
By doing tests or by your status and power?
So if you're born with genetically lower IQ you deserve to die? This i can not agree with.
How can you measure intelligence at all? You know if you repeat various IQ tests you can get better scores, that's not meant to happen, which shows that they are only good for deciding what children can go to rich schools and others to poorer ones.

I meant those who want to edit our culture in this time!
OK, I'm nearing flaming. Need to relax a moment.

(PS: Is it true that all who debate with me using American's point of view? Bastard!)

"Its a conspiracy! "

Conspiracy that's good to us :D


(Note: I'm a supporter of an Islamic Caliphate, yes...)

I meant those who want to edit our culture in this time!
OK, I'm nearing flaming. Need to relax a moment.

(PS: Is it true that all who debate with me using American's point of view? Bastard!)

"Its a conspiracy! "

Conspiracy that's good to us :D


(Note: I'm a supporter of an Islamic Caliphate, yes...)

meh, i just support al el beyt, which includes the king of jordan, nasrallah, and the king of morroco, i think

Al-Qaeda is obviously bad, but I recckon it is a very exaggerated threat used as a scapegoat by the west to justify attacks on freedom and illegal wars.

What? You let the land of the most Muslim in the world get out? The SEA is also important! (PS: We can beat the H##l out of Dutch alone that time. If only we are united!)

With what?

Can you imagine what could happen if an American president were assassinated by a foriegn terrorist, and a newly crusading nation who happens to be the lone remaining global military superpower, is now demanding all of its allies unlimited access to hunt terrorist cells within thier borders?

Who would say no?

Pakistan?

With the problems theyve had since thier own assassination a few weeks ago, they would agree pretty quick.

Where would an AQ member be safe after that kind of thing?Who says they are any safer today?

Emm, in heaven??
Who knows?
Allah will tell us, some times later.

;)

OK, people. I envisioned some times in the future, the conspirator of East, Middle East, West, Westernized East, Middle-Easterned East, will warring against each others... OK, i'm crazy. But the conspirator are exist!

Emm, in heaven??my question is not about "where".

I am pointing out to him that AQ members would not be any safer either way.

US issued DOS orders are hanging over their heads like spades, so they have nothing to lose.

So basically here is the situation:
Bush has declared a "War on terror"
Bush has declared a War against an enemy that has nothing to lose, is mostly invisible, and can raise from its ashes.

Bush has declared a war that cannot be won.

Bush has declared a war that cannot be won.

Precisely the foolish attitude AQ is relying on.

Do you have any other defeatist aid and comfort to give to the enemy?

Bush has declared a war that cannot be won.

Defeatism at it's fineist.

What do I think of them?

Oh, we dont see much of each other anymore, not like the old days.
We used to get together on weekends and rent some sleazy hotel room, and have wild jyhads, and issuing Fatwahs like madmen till dawn.

Basically, I just felt like they were using me for sects.

:p

Made me chuckle. Silently as it was.

Precisely the foolish attitude AQ is relying on.

"Terrorism" is nothing more or less than a set of tactics. Whether you call it crime or war, terrorism is a set of methods. You can't defeat methods by killing the people who use it; it's never worked before and is as nonsensical as trying to wage war against "mechanized warfare."

Pointing this out isn't an "attitude."

Do you have any other defeatist aid and comfort to give to the enemy?

The fact that you levy accusations of treason so quickly, and against anyone who so much as disagrees with your views on an internet board, just shows how watered-down and meaningless such accusations are in general.

And it's also an absurd personal attack. "U R TRAITOR1!1!!!" from the 101st Keyboarding.

Precisely the foolish attitude AQ is relying on.

Do you have any other defeatist aid and comfort to give to the enemy?its a conspiracy against the US Gov.. I am telling ya :D :p :D :D

I was reading this interesting piece on the alliance between Wahabbis and British...thought to share this..

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/encounter/encounter4.htm
1857: not a jihadi uprising



By Hassan Jafar Zaidi


The documentary, Clash Of The Worlds: Mutiny, telecast by BBC-1 on January 7, carried some distortions of historical facts. It suggested that the 1857 uprising against the British was motivated, organised and fought by the jihadi Muslims of India. The background of jihad was linked to 1830-31 Wahabi movement led by Syed Ahmed Brelvi who was a disciple of Mohammad Bin Abdul Wahab of Arabia (1704-92).

The documentary traced the roots of Wahabism as an anti-British movement, leading finally to an armed struggle against the British in India; establishing a jihadi camp in Peshawar “against the British” under the command of Syed Ahmed who was killed in 1831 without telling ‘who he was fighting against’ and who really killed him. Some important facts have been ignored or misrepresented because they did not fit into what the documentary was trying to impress upon i.e. the Islamic Jihad always targeted the British, irrespective of time and space in the history of mankind.

It is important to set the historical records straight. History must be viewed in its true perspective rather than an instrument of propaganda for the persecution of a religious community.

Sir W.W. Hunter, a great British annalist and an ICS officer, was assigned to prepare a report about discontentment among the Muslims of India (published as Our Indian Musalmans or The Indian Musalmans). It was considered an authentic document on Syed Ahmed’s Wahabi Jihad movement. According to Hunter, Syed Ahmed, under the influence of Mohammad Bin Abdul Wahab, recruited during early 19th century, the Jihadis, the fighters of Holy War, from Bengal, Bihar, Awadh and Agra, the areas which were under the administration of East India Company.

British officers had the knowledge of this recruitment and they let it happen because the target of this recruitment was not the British but the Sikh empire of Ranjeet Singh spread over Punjab, the present day North West Frontier Province and Kashmir.

Hunter narrates stories of young Muslims, doing menial jobs in the East India Company, applying for long leave and the Company’s officers granting them. Syed Ahmed was successful in conquering Peshawar and its surrounding areas up to Mansehra and Balakot.

Battles between the Sikh armies and the jihadis continued; the Sikhs were officered by the French generals to support Maharaja Ranjeet against the British expansion. Thus, this local war became a proxy war between the British and the French –– the jihadis enjoying tacit support of the British and the French helping the Sikh armies.

Syed Ahmed and many of his companions were killed at the hands of the Sikhs (and the French) in a battle at Balakot in 1831. To some extent, it resembled the recent proxy war between the Soviets and the western bloc fought under the guise of jihad by Osama bin Laden and other jihadi organisations. It was only after the fall of Sikh empire in 1849 that a minor group led by Patna-based brothers Wilayat Ali and Inayat Ali, the Wahabis began to work against the British just as the Taliban, once favourite Mujadideen of the West, turned against the West after the demise of the Soviet Union. [History does repeats itself :p]

The BBC documentary does not reveal several facts about the real contending forces. The 1857 uprising, mutiny for the British and war of independence for the Indians, has been portrayed in the documentary as Jihad by Muslims/Wahabi terrorists against the British, and there is no mention of the participation of Hindus and other Indian communities in it –– a crucial omission.

There exists a general consensus among historians that 1857 war was a secular uprising. It united Muslims and Hindus against the colonialist British who, by their policies, had sowed the seeds of rebellion in all the communities for different reasons. The uprising was inevitable when the Indian section of the army was allocated cartridges greased with the fat of cows and pigs, unacceptable to both Hindus and Muslims. The vanguard of the rebellion consisted of all the communities. The mutiny lasted thirteen months: from the rising at Meerut on May, 10, 1857 to the fall of Gwaliar on June 20, 1858.

Thomas Lowe, a contemporary British chronicler who was in Central India during the rebellion, wrote in 1860: "The infanticide Rajput, the bigoted Brahmin, the fanatic Musalman, had joined together in the cause; cow-killer and the cow-worshipper, the pig-hater and the pig-eater… had revolted together." The combatants in the uprising comprised the rebellious East India Company sepoys, several small princely states mostly ruled by Hindu rajas, and deposed rulers of big princely states of Oudh (Muslim) and Jhansi (Hindu).

A closer look into the uprising reveals little presence of Wahabi extremists. There were calls for jihad by Muslim leaders like Maulana Fazl-e-Haq Khairabadi and Ahmedullah Shah which were responded by Muslim artisans of Oudh. In May 1857 the Battle of Shamli took place between the forces of Haji Imdadullah and the British in Thana Bhawan in Oudh. These few eruptions led by religious Muslim leaders could not and did not change the overall secular complexion of the Rebellion.

The origins of Wahabi movement of late 18th and early 19th century in Arabian peninsula were not anti-British sentiments. The movement targeted the Turkish Ottomans who, as believed by the Wahabis, were responsible for polluting the fundamentalist Islam of Arabia with the traditionalist rituals of Ajam (non-Arabs). Wahabism was a political movement, with religious overtones, seeking freedom for Arabs from the occupation of Ottoman Turks.

The British wanted to destabilise and demolish the Ottoman Empire; they facilitated and supported the Wahabis in Arabian peninsula. The rulers of Najd, the House of Saud (Al-Saud), were the disciples of Wahabism. The Indian Viceroy i.e. the representative of British Crown as Governor General, provided money and arms to Al-Saud rulers of Najd and other Gulf Sheikhdoms to brew this rebellion against Ottomans (The Kingdom: The Arabia and the House of Saud by Robert Lacy).

During World War1, John Philby, an Intelligence Officer of the British Foreign Service was sent in 1917 to Abdul Aziz, the Wahabi ruler of Najd, to serve as his advisor. Aziz succeeded in deposing Sherif Hussain of Makkah from Hijaz to establish Kingdom of Saudi Arabia after the collapse of Ottoman Empire. Philby served as a minister in the government of Al-Saud. He changed his name as Abdullah apparently after embracing Islam but still served the British Intelligence. He was exiled by King Saud in 1955.

That is how Wahabism was supported and sponsored by the British in 19th and 20th century in the Arabian peninsula which later became the breeding ground of jihadis. After 9/11, the world changed and the allies became aliens.:D So, the documentary portrays the Wahabi jihadis as anti-British and anti-West militants since the inception of Wahabism till to-date.

The researchers of the documentary perhaps were ignorant of the fundamentals of Wahabism. A collogue of pages from some religious books in Urdu were presented as the literature of teachings of Wahabis. One of the pages was titled “Shab-i-Barat ki Fazeelat” (Glory of the Night of Exoneration). One may note the Wahabis don’t believe in this night, nor take part in celebrations performed on this night by the traditionalist Muslims.

Yeah, same as A/Q was with the USA...
Still, they only ally with the enemy of their enemy. That's why when they have beaten the Turks, they became enemy...

Emm, in heaven??
Who knows?
Allah will tell us, some times later.

;)

OK, people. I envisioned some times in the future, the conspirator of East, Middle East, West, Westernized East, Middle-Easterned East, will warring against each others... OK, i'm crazy. But the conspirator are exist!
You would know, since you are one of them. You support al-Qaeda, one of the leading "conspirators" seeking to start endless international war. I wonder, is it a lot of fun to get on the internet and call for endless war and praise endless war all day long? (I asked New Mitanni a similar question long ago, but you see the quality of answers he gives. I gave up trying to talk to him after a while.)

blah blah blah etc... endless international war. blah blah blah blah etc ... endless war and praise endless war all day long.
blah blah etc.hahaha hehe.. aww poor guy. :)



One of the first keys of managing/winning conflict is
Know you enemy.

and listening all day to FOX editorial interpretations is NOT really going to help you in that department.
my advice to you: try to get the unedited tapes transcripts, and read them slowly. Yes it is a long read.

Preemptive: dont ask me to google it for you, I wont.

hahaha hehe.. aww poor guy. :)



One of the first keys of managing/winning conflict is
Know you enemy.

and listening all day to FOX editorial interpretations is NOT really going to help you in that department.
my advice to you: try to get the unedited tapes transcripts, and read them slowly. Yes it is a long read.

Preemptive: dont ask me to google it for you, I wont.
Follow your own advice, and don't try to pull your uniformed trollishness with me, thank you.

Instead, why don't you try reading the thread? If you do that, you might realize that I am not a supporter of idiotic neocon propaganda about terrorism, and you have no reason to think that I am just because I do not respect terrorism. In fact, if you take your time and read all the words, you might see where I talked about Osama bin Laden's own stated goal of maintaining perpetual war because of his belief that "Muslim men can only define themselves by constant conflict with the West." Those are his words, from a published letter dating from, I believe, 2000 or earlier -- before 9/11, before Bush's war on terror bullshit. If you go to the trouble of "knowing your enemy," you might also find out that I consider Bush/Cheney and Al-Qaeda to be two peas in the same pod with no difference between them. I stand in opposition to both and heartily wish both off my planet.

I don't give a rat's ass who is trying to kill people or why they are trying to kill people, I stand in opposition to people trying to kill people. Period. I do not care about the motives or agendas or complaints of terrorists (Arab or American). I only care about their tactics.

I openly support them. Yeah thats right, I'm not Muslim, I'm British and I'm Middle Class and I fully support a terrorist organization. :) Mainly because the US had it coming. Everyone is entitled to there own opinions no matter what, Al-Qaida should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't force US all to follow their religion. The USA did start it as well you know. Please insult me now. ;)

I openly support them. Yeah thats right, I'm not Muslim, I'm British and I'm Middle Class and I fully support a terrorist organization. :) Mainly because the US had it coming. Everyone is entitled to there own opinions no matter what, Al-Qaida should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't force US all to follow their religion. The USA did start it as well you know. Please insult me now. ;)



WOW!..all i can respond to this is,a little prayer....."Allah,Please protect us from your followers."

I openly support them. Yeah thats right, I'm not Muslim, I'm British and I'm Middle Class and I fully support a terrorist organization. :) Mainly because the US had it coming. Everyone is entitled to there own opinions no matter what, Al-Qaida should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't force US all to follow their religion. The USA did start it as well you know. Please insult me now. ;)


Heh Heh.

:p

I openly support them. Yeah thats right, I'm not Muslim, I'm British and I'm Middle Class and I fully support a terrorist organization. :) Mainly because the US had it coming. Everyone is entitled to there own opinions no matter what, Al-Qaida should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't force US all to follow their religion. The USA did start it as well you know. Please insult me now. ;)
???

is this sparta?

http://www.funny-city.gr/templates/content/this-is-sparta/this-is-sparta-7.jpg


:D :D

I openly support them. Yeah thats right, I'm not Muslim, I'm British and I'm Middle Class and I fully support a terrorist organization. :)

Sounds like a typical case of middle-class, middle-school angst and rebelliousness.

Mainly because the US had it coming.

That doesn't mean that some 3,000 odd people have to die. In fact, to justify that you have to do some serious dehumanizing of people, which is not quite a positive thing.

Just because you oppose what the US is doing in certain areas, doesn't mean you have to support what all of its enemies are doing.

Everyone is entitled to there own opinions no matter what, Al-Qaida should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't force US all to follow their religion.

Well, that's an absolutely ridiculous claim. Should they be allowed to do whatever they want, save force the US to follow their religion, even if that includes blowing up buildings, killing people and hijacking airliners? Hardly. If they were a common civil society organization, perhaps, but they aren't. They are not comparable to Amnesty International, or Human Rights Watch or anything like that.

The USA did start it as well you know.

My dear, that's quite up to debate. The situation in the Middle East is so phenomenally complex, that certain elements cannot facilitate for assigning of "the blame." Dear Britain and France bear an awful lot of blame, as do the Russians and Germans, as well as the Arabs and Persians themselves. Don't forget the Turks, they've got their hands all over this from way back in the day. Oh, and the Israelis, let's not forget them either.

Nor those pasty, cheese eating Dutch monkeys.

Please insult me now. ;)

That's not a particularly productive use of my time.

I openly support them. Yeah thats right, I'm not Muslim, I'm British and I'm Middle Class and I fully support a terrorist organization. :) Mainly because the US had it coming. Everyone is entitled to there own opinions no matter what, Al-Qaida should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't force US all to follow their religion. The USA did start it as well you know. Please insult me now. ;)

Thanks for proving that horses' asses outnumber horses :rolleyes:

WOW!..all i can respond to this is,a little prayer....."Allah,Please protect us from your followers."

Um. As he's not Muslim, what are you trying to say here?

snip

pwnd from the first sentence!

the US had it coming. That doesn't mean that some 3,000 odd people have to die. In fact, to justify that you have to do some serious dehumanizing of people, which is not quite a positive thing.???
...



what is the acceptable number?

I openly support them. Yeah thats right, I'm not Muslim, I'm British and I'm Middle Class and I fully support a terrorist organization. :) Mainly because the US had it coming. Everyone is entitled to there own opinions no matter what, Al-Qaida should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't force US all to follow their religion. The USA did start it as well you know. Please insult me now. ;)

I hope you are not serious.

I really hope you are not serious.

With what?

Can you imagine what could happen if an American president were assassinated by a foriegn terrorist, and a newly crusading nation who happens to be the lone remaining global military superpower, is now demanding all of its allies unlimited access to hunt terrorist cells within thier borders?

Who would say no?

Pakistan?

With the problems theyve had since thier own assassination a few weeks ago, they would agree pretty quick.

Where would an AQ member be safe after that kind of thing?

Holy crap man.

We would go in a frenzy. We would be screaming for blood, and rightly so.

Holy crap man.

We would go in a frenzy. We would be screaming for blood, and rightly so.and - our blood thirsty frenzy - would it be good or bad for Al-Qaida?

and.. our blood thirsty frenzy.. would it be good or bad for Al-Qaida?

It doesn't matter. We would systematically destroy, with no remorse, any perceived threat.

I openly support them. Yeah thats right, I'm not Muslim, I'm British and I'm Middle Class and I fully support a terrorist organization. :) Mainly because the US had it coming. Everyone is entitled to there own opinions no matter what, Al-Qaida should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't force US all to follow their religion. The USA did start it as well you know. Please insult me now. ;)

I am glad you are an unimportant little middle-class nobody, if you were worth something you might do some harm with those views.

...you might do some harm with those views.#1 Views do not harm. (besides, the title of this thread is:What do you think of AQ?)
#2 There is nothing wrong with being middle class.

I am glad you are an unimportant little middle-class nobody, if you were worth something you might do some harm with those views.

Yeah because only upper-class, well-to-do Al Qaeda sympathizers ever do any harm with their views.

Thank you, Comrade Mussleburgh! :):)

One of the many groups of religious fundamentalists I can't stand.

I openly support them. Yeah thats right, I'm not Muslim, I'm British and I'm Middle Class and I fully support a terrorist organization. :) Mainly because the US had it coming.
So I suppose you won't object to some A-Q follower placing a bomb under your seat in the tube. Because the UK had it coming, too, according to A-Q.


Everyone is entitled to there own opinions no matter what

This is a thing A-Q (or any other fundamentalist group) doesn't agree to.

Please insult me now. ;)
Why should I please your own masochistical attitude?

I actually have, what I think is, reasonably important job. I am part of a team sent to other countries (middle east and far east mainly) by the United Kingdoms government*whistles 'God Save the Queen'* to normal find out how undeveloped countries are coping with medical, judicial and believe it or not sometimes military liaison(I was once sent out as a minor member of a team to Kuwait to look at how the military works there) problems. I remain trust worthy and have never once altered data, but I could if I was asked to. I also have a best friend who shares similar views as me and works in the BAE systems buildings in Edinburgh.He designs flight software and he once told me over a pint that it would be easy,if he was given the right amount of people and software, to fix things so that the software could go wrong. Be afraid lol ;)

Yeah because only upper-class, well-to-do Al Qaeda sympathizers ever do any harm with their views.

People in power can do damage if you never noticed.

???
...



what is the acceptable number?

Somewhere in the vicinity of 0.

People in power can do damage if you never noticed.

People can do damage if you never noticed. Why don't you try vacationing in Israel for a few months. You may wind up noting that the people who kill you are of lower and middle class.

People can do damage if you never noticed. Why don't you try vacationing in Israel for a few months. You may wind up noting that the people who kill you are of lower and middle class.

That has nothing to do with my response with that "person". Fail.

That has nothing to do with my responce with that "person". Fail.

Oh? Okay class, review session.

In post 208 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13407407&postcount=208), Kontor asserted:

"I am glad you are an unimportant little middle-class nobody, if you were worth something you might do some harm with those views."

Kontor claims that Mussleburgh would do harm with his views, however he also suggests that because Mussleburgh is "middle-class," he either won't or probably won't do said harm.

To support and defend this assertion, Kontor, in post 215 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13408560&postcount=215), says:

"People in power can do damage if you never noticed."

While certainly true, again the clear implication that it takes "power" ("middle-class") to do damage or harm - and that without such economic status, one cannot or will not do said damage or harm.

In post 217 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13408596&postcount=217), I gave a clear example that stands in direct refutation of Kontor's claim.

Post 218, Kontor claims none of this has anything to do with what he said. Kontor is essentially conceding and backing out of the argument without admitting to error, evidently hoping to simply forget the matter. I for one hope he won't, because this schooling I've been giving has been a good learning opportunity for him.

I actually have, what I think is, reasonably important job. I am part of a team sent to other countries (middle east and far east mainly) by the United Kingdoms government*whistles 'God Save the Queen'* to normal find out how undeveloped countries are coping with medical, judicial and believe it or not sometimes military liaison(I was once sent out as a minor member of a team to Kuwait to look at how the military works there) problems. I remain trust worthy and have never once altered data, but I could if I was asked to. I also have a best friend who shares similar views as me and works in the BAE systems buildings in Edinburgh.He designs flight software and he once told me over a pint that it would be easy,if he was given the right amount of people and software, to fix things so that the software could go wrong. Be afraid lol ;)

Ah, no response to the numerous posts debunking your views. I suppose we can write this one off as trolling.

Hmm, hope you support the recolony of the America by the British. I, for one, agree with it. If only because it will make our enemy subtracted by 1.

What does this have to do with anything that has been posted so far?

Hmm, hope you support the recolony of the America by the British. I, for one, agree with it. If only because it will make our enemy subtracted by 1.

Ehm, none?

Yeah, what do I care to post about that. :(:mp5:

I actually have, what I think is, reasonably important job. I am part of a team sent to other countries (middle east and far east mainly) by the United Kingdoms government*whistles 'God Save the Queen'* to normal find out how undeveloped countries are coping with medical, judicial and believe it or not sometimes military liaison(I was once sent out as a minor member of a team to Kuwait to look at how the military works there) problems. I remain trust worthy and have never once altered data, but I could if I was asked to. I also have a best friend who shares similar views as me and works in the BAE systems buildings in Edinburgh.He designs flight software and he once told me over a pint that it would be easy,if he was given the right amount of people and software, to fix things so that the software could go wrong. Be afraid lol ;)

Then perhaps someone should be looking into you as a potential threat to national security. It would not take a genius to discover who you are, and your friend in BAE systems buildings in Edinburgh, and I sincerely hope they do.
Quite honestly though, I am shocked that someone who claims to be paid by the government can be crass enough to brag about things such as this on a public forum where anyone could be reading it. Lets hope someone with the ability and authority to trace your IP and initiate proceedings against you is reading this page, and that both you and your friend lose your positions, seeing as the incentive and ability to do harm are there. All it takes is for someone to report your post to the appropriate authorities, and I am sure they would be interested in checking its validity out.
As you said earlier, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and that is mine.

Ah, no response to the numerous posts debunking your views. #1 He was asked his opinion on AQ.

#2 He gave his opinion. (I support or I dont Support)

#3 He was given the expected "OH MY GOD, HOW COULD YOU !!!!!! " :D

but nothing was debunked.. because there is nothing to debunk really.

#1 He was asked his opinion on AQ.

#2 He gave his opinion. (I support or I dont Support)

#3 He was given the expected "OH MY GOD, HOW COULD YOU !!!!!! " :D

but nothing was debunked.. because there is nothing to debunk really.

How is there nothing to debunk?

Mainly because the US had it coming

Everyone is entitled to there own opinions no matter what, Al-Qaida should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't force US all to follow their religion

The USA did start it as well you know

These statements are clearly... debunkable.

Then perhaps someone should be looking into you as a potential threat to national security. It would not take a genius to discover who you are, and your friend in BAE systems buildings in Edinburgh, and I sincerely hope they do.
Quite honestly though, I am shocked that someone who claims to be paid by the government can be crass enough to brag about things such as this on a public forum where anyone could be reading it. Lets hope someone with the ability and authority to trace your IP and initiate proceedings against you is reading this page, and that both you and your friend lose your positions, seeing as the incentive and ability to do harm are there. All it takes is for someone to report your post to the appropriate authorities, and I am sure they would be interested in checking its validity out.WUAHAHAHAHA..

such a loser.

here let me give another way to compensate you pathetic impotency, you buy this voodo doll (effigy these evil people giving their opinion on the interwebs) lock yourself in your apartment go to the kitchen and..
http://www.square-mag.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/Voodoo.jpg

have fun playing with your dolls :gundge:

These statements are clearly... debunkable.nope, his statement is not debunkable.
But if you think you can debunk it, be my guest.

his key statement is USA did start it. debunk that one -rite here- and you win.

Good luck ;)

such a loser.

Ah, a troll.
Interesting line of debate, that you just choose to insult me without making any form of adult conversation.

The fact that Muscleburgh claims to work for the UK Government, but supports AQ, is something I feel is seriously conflicting. Then he goes on to say that he could, if he was asked, alter data and he has a friend who also supports AQ who could tamper with flight software.
It is like someone in the AQ actually supporting America whilst working in a place he could tamper with AQ equipment.... and then bragging about it to AQ supporters.
If the claim is true, then it is a security risk.

If that opinion somehow suggests to you that I have pathetic impotency then maybe your medical knowledge is lacking.
Or of course, you are just trolling for the sake of trolling.

nope, his statement is not debunkable.
But if you think you can debunk it, be my guest.

his key statement is debunk that one -rite here- and you win.

Good luck ;)

Can you prove it? The point is not that the statement is not true, but that it can be argued against. You flat-out saying that the entire post was not debunkable seems to be something along the absurd lines of 'it's his opinion so it can't be wrong LOLOLOL'

By the above I would assume that you agree with this.

Everyone is entitled to there own opinions no matter what, Al-Qaida should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't force US all to follow their religion

The fact that Muscleburgh claims to work for the UK Government...I guess you mean to say anyone working for the UK gov is not allowed to post his opinion. Unless his opinion is in line with Blair/Bush Project.
.
.. then maybe your medical knowledge is lacking.for the record, I am not talking about your wii.

I guess you mean to say anyone working for the UK gov is not allowed to post his opinion. Unless his opinion is in line with Blair/Bush Project.
.
for the record, I am not talking about your wii.

Yes, because not supporting Al-Qaida means that you're a slavish supporter of Bush and Blair.

:rolleyes:

The point is not that the statement is not true, but that it can be argued against.oh I see.

You are not saying you can debunk his "who started it?" statement..
You are just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

I did not mean to interrupt you, by all means, do that and be happy. :cool:

oh I see.

You are not saying you can debunk his "we started it" statement..
You are just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

I did not mean to interrupt you, by all means, do that and be happy. :cool:

I'm not going to because it's already been done (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13407050&postcount=200).

Isn't that the whole point of NSG?

And my posts aren't very long. Whilst this is probably a symbol of poor quality, it also makes it easier for you to look at all the things which have been said and directed to you in them. Aren't I nice? If you could do so, that would be appreciated.

Yes, because not supporting Al-Qaida means that you're a slavish supporter of Bush and Blair.I dont support AQ and I do not Support the Neocons.

I dont swallow that -Bush- "With US or against US" bullshit.

Isn't that the whole point of NSG?I guess its all part of free speech, thats why I -took 2 steps back and- asked you to forgive my intrusive attitude.
.
And my posts aren't very long. Whilst this is probably a symbol of poor quality,I dont think it is.
.
it also makes it easier for you to look at all the things which have been said and directed to you in them. Aren't I nice? yes.
.
If you could do so, that would be appreciated.I will try.

I dont support AQ and I do not Support the Neocons.

I dont swallow that -Bush- "With US or against US" bullshit.

Let's reiterate.

Mussleburgh: I support Al-Qaida.

Fennijer: Working for the UK government and supporting Al-Qaida is disturbing.

OceanDrive2: Ah, so only people in line with Bush-Blair can work for the government and post opinions.

Therefore, if you believe that supporting Al-Qaida is disturbing (which it is in itself) in conjunction with working for the UK government, according to OceanDrive, you believe in suppressing opinions that aren't in line with those of Bush and Blair. Therefore, if you do not support Al-Qaida (i.e. think support for said organisation is disturbing), you are in support of opinions of Bush and Blair, according to OceanDrive.

I guess its all part of free speech, thats why I -took 2 steps back and- asked you to forgive my intrusive attitude.
.
I dont think it is.
.
yes.
.
I will try.

Um. I'm not quite sure we're on the same page here.

Fennijer: Working for the UK government and supporting Al-Qaida is disturbing. dude.. common now.

Had Fennijer said just that, I would not have intervened.

you need to be more fair on your appreciation.

I guess you mean to say anyone working for the UK gov is not allowed to post his opinion. Unless his opinion is in line with Blair/Bush Project.
Then your guess is erroneous and wrong.
I stated my opinion clearly and I will not enter into silly childish banter with you, thus your repeated attempts at insults are nothing to me. I am old enough and wise enough to know to not 'feed the troll'.
for the record, I am not talking about your wii. Good, because I do not own a wii, nor did I believe you were ever speaking of my wii.
If you still are unsure what I was saying, then I suggest you read my post and refrain from trying to think about anything else other than what I actually stated.
I am not a Blair/Bush puppet, and I protested AGAINST the whole Iraq business. This does not mean I defend AQ methods of blowing up innocent people, as this marks them as worse than Blair/Bush. I am interested in the innocent people who are caught up in this silly game of war, and their rights to a decent life without fear.
After 9/11, and the bombings in London, AQ has proved themselves to be nasty little fanatics (imo) who have a knack for making enemies rather than friends. If they want support, then maybe they should have thought about their tactics before they targeted innocent people.

I guess you mean to say anyone working for the UK gov is not allowed to post his opinion. Unless his opinion is in line with Blair/Bush Project.Then your guess is erroneous and wrong.So, someone working for the UK Gov, should be able to speak up his mind (here @ NSG) about AQ ?

Yes or No, you cant have it both ways buddy.

So, someone working for the UK Gov, should be able to speak up his mind (here @ NSG) about AQ ?

Yes or No, you cant have it both ways buddy.

Yes, they should be able to speak their mind about anything. However, that goes both ways, in the sense that anyone can also state their opinions back. If someone wants to post that they are a convicted paedophile and working in a school, then that is completely up to them. It does not mean it is a wise thing to say.
But my point has always been that he should not be employed by the government in a role where he can do harm. Which part of that have you been unable to see? Hamilay even summarised it into a short sentence for you. It is you that has been focusing on his right to speak his mind, which was never a question in my mind. I merely thought it was a silly place to say it, especially as he was 'dropping his friend in it' too. The media would have a field day with a story such as that. AQ supporter working with flight software in scotland? .... and they still might, if they catch wind of it.

By the above I would assume that you agree with this.No I dont.

Muslim peoples should be allowed to do what they want in their countries as long as they don't force US all to follow their religion.

Its pretty simple. We dont force them to do anything and they dont force US to do anything.

See the case of Iran.

dude.. common now.

Had Fennijer said just that, I would not have intervened.

you need to be more fair on your appreciation.

So, he says that it may be a security risk, which is frankly fair enough going by what Mussleburgh is saying, though he is probably just trolling.

No I dont.

Muslim peoples should be allowed to do what they want in their countries as long as they don't force US all to follow their religion.

Its pretty simple. We dont force them to do anything and they dont force US to do anything.

See the case of Iran.

If you don't agree with it, why exactly do you say that it cannot be debunked unless you have no reasons for not agreeing with it?

If someone wants to post that they are a convicted paedophile and working in a school.I am sure It is against the UK Law to be a convicted peadophile and work on a school.

and it is against forum rules to post illegal stuff.

my question: Is it against the Law to Work for the UK gov and have an opinion about AQ (an opinion contrary to the Gov)?

No I dont.

Muslim peoples should be allowed to do what they want in their countries as long as they don't force US all to follow their religion.

Its pretty simple. We dont force them to do anything and they dont force US to do anything.

See the case of Iran.

Ridackulous.

The ancient Westphalian paradigm of sovereignty is nothing more than a justification provided to a mess of German princelings to oppress their own people. It's time we do away with this antiquated and unjust doctrine, and embrace a more international system. The world can no longer afford to be divided up into Westphalian nation-states, because of the costs that are just so incredibly high to the people around the world.

The behaviors of states will not change until the system in which states operate changes. International anarchy is no longer an acceptable tenet of the structure of our international society. The costs are too high and the risks too great. Do away with the nation-state!

It is sovereignty that despots in Burma, Belarus, Pakistan, Sudan, Cuba, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe and Iran tout as the justification for their rule to the international community. Enough I say!

If you don't agree with it, why exactly do you say that it cannot be debunked unless you have no reasons for not agreeing with it?what I did is not debunk it.

I just expressed an opinion apparently different to his. (what the Muslim people should be allowed to, and what should US be allowed to do) I am using the tag "apparently", because he was probably trying to say it this way anyways.

the only historical fact you can try to debunk is his statement "USA did started it". And if you try to debunk him on that factual statement, you are going to bite the dust.

Ridackulous.

The ancient Westphalian paradigm of sovereignty is nothing more than a justification provided to a mess of German ....

Enough I say!:rolleyes: ... so you want to do away with sovereignty. And you want to replace it with what exactly?

I am sure It is against the UK Law to be a convicted peadophile and work on a school.
and it is against forum rules to post illegal stuff.
my question: Is it against the Law to Work for the UK gov and have an opinion about AQ (an opinion contrary to the Gov)?
I doubt there are any laws which prohibit personal belief systems, but I am sure the media would not see it that way. I mean, he did not just say that he worked for the government. He implied so much more than that.
I openly support them. Yeah thats right, I'm not Muslim, I'm British and I'm Middle Class and I fully support a terrorist organization.
I remain trust worthy and have never once altered data, but I could if I was asked to. I also have a best friend who shares similar views as me and works in the BAE systems buildings in Edinburgh.He designs flight software and he once told me over a pint that it would be easy,if he was given the right amount of people and software, to fix things so that the software could go wrong. Be afraid

An opinion which implies he (and his friend) could do damage, bearing in mind he supports a group who have no qualms in killing innocent people. I am sure it is not illegal to express such things, but it is foolish to make those implications as it makes people question their place in such roles. And it is not a very clever thing to do when you consider that he has mentioned his best friend too, and finished off by telling people to be afraid.

I agree with Hamilay that the guy is probably just trolling. But what if he isn't?

This has been a while coming. I'd kinda forgotten about this post, and I owe it a response.

(If so, what does the "C" stand for? I'm just curious to understand the letters.)
PMC is taken to stand for Private Military Company when describing an organisation itself. It can also mean Private Military Contractor when taken in a particular political context, since PMC involvement in politics tends to be on someone else's behalf.

2) ... If you don't understand the difference between mythical cabal stories like the Illuminati and crooked, mercenary, war-profiteer scams like Cheney and friends, go google Illuminati and read all the sources, not just the nutjob conspiracy sites.
Don't worry, I know very well the difference. Which is why, as I said, I agreed with your assertion about the nature of secret conspiracies. There is no shady group of back-room figures plotting to control the world; there is, however, a very public and hugely profitable private military market that benefits from a state of social dischord. It's worth bearing in mind that the difference between a secret clique of intellectuals and a corporate venture does not really mean an awful lot to someone whose home and family have just been blown up to further the interests of some remote group that feels little or no remorse for what they've done.

First, a couple of specific points:

1) Your assumption that my idea of a liberal lifestyle includes commercial consumerism is wrong. Thank you so much for making that pejorative and prejudicial assumption about what I meant instead of asking me what I meant (sarcasm). FYI, my idea of a liberal lifestyle is one that includes freedom of religion, speech, travel and association, promotes social egalitarianism, human rights, and civil rights for all people of all races, religions, beliefs, genders, etc, together with a tolerance of differences among people I share my surroundings with. It has absolutely nothing to do with commercialism or consumerism.
Yes, thanks for the sarcasm reminder. I'd never have guessed that otherwise. ( =P )

I, like many others, think that a lot of the kind of freedoms you mentioned are only free to be exercised because people are comfortable materially. What do human rights mean when you fight just to keep yourself alive? What order maintains racial harmony in a labour camp? When thousands of young girls and boys are trafficked and prostituted daily to fund their "owners", where does gender inequality become a point of contention? When millions grow up on the streets after their parents had to abandon them, can society ever claim to be egalitarian?

It is only because we live in a rich and prosperous world that we can afford our notions of freedom. We do not need to struggle for our daily bread, we do not need to subordinate ourselves to our rulers to keep a roof over our heads, we do not need to retain our associations or compromise our beliefs in order to stay with the one source of income available to us. With humans, staying alive is always our principle motivation, and unless you can guarantee that, the idea of social freedoms is at most a secondary thought.

Implicit within "liberalism" as you describe it is the idea that these base needs are dealt with, and in that respect, I think it's entirely reasonable to assume that Western liberalism is at least partly reliant on its material wealth and the means by which this wealth is maintained. Feel free to rebuke me on that if you will.

I respect you as a poster on many issues, but on this one point, I will ask you to speak only for yourself about inner weakness and hypocrisy.

My personal morals and ethics require me to take responsibility for myself in all things, at all times. If I fail to stay on the path that I think is right, then the failing is mine and no one else's. I may feel fear or intimidation or oppression or social restrictions against me, I may be offended time and time again by what I see around me, and I may not be able to do anything to change the situation, but one thing I can do is maintain myself, my integrity. If there is a way of life that I think is right, it is my responsibility to stick to it, regardless of what anyone else in the world does. And that is what I do, no matter what.

I do not care if you don't believe me, and I am sorry if you do not like my attitude, but that is how I live, and the fact remains that I have zero respect for people who blame others for their own moral lapses. I do not believe that the mere presence of "liberal" people in the world is enough to shake the morals and faith of people who really, sincerely believe in their religion.
I do believe you. It sounds so very familiar to me. I used to think like that; the idea that I was my own Atlas, bearing my personal world on my shoulders and refusing to let anyone else share the load. To an extent, I still fall into that every now and then out of habit whenever I don't want to bother anyone else with my mistakes. But the world doesn't work like that. The human being has limitations. There is only so much I can be certain in, only so much motivation I can generate internally, and only so much physical force I can stand. The wrong questions, the wrong failures and the wrong blows can cripple us. We cannot bear everything life has to throw at us on our own.

Nor should we feel compelled to do so. The whole point of society is that living is a collective venture, and that although I have responsibility for myself, I also have a responsibility towards everyone else to help them with their problems if I can. This is true for everyone else as well. Yes, I know that I owe it to myself to improve my attitudes and work to being someone that can contribute to this structure, but I also know that I have friends, family and even loosely affiliated fellow citizens that are there to help and support me and that want to do so.

Part of our responsibility to them is letting them help. I'm not for one second suggesting that we blame others for our own misgivings; that's not being responsible. All I'm saying is that it's not fair to keep giving and giving without ever letting others give to you in return, especially when what they want to give is something that would better help you be the person you want to be.

I stated specifically that cultural/economic imperialism is a legitimate concern. That is the kind of thing that creates the social pressures that destroy cultures which cannot adapt quickly enough to maintain their distinct identities. History shows many examples of it, and loss of cultural identity is almost always accompanied by human suffering, so when cultures meet and change each other, people must always be mindful of what they are doing.
We're agreed on that!

But that is not what I am objecting to, when I tell the OP not to blame me for his failings. I am objecting to his assertion that my liberal beliefs are a threat to his life so great that he must support an agenda that wants to kill me. I say that his argument that I must die so that he can live is bullshit, and I challenge him, you or anyone else to show otherwise. He comes up with an argument that includes the assertion that my way of living -- all the way over here in North America, having nothing at all do with him in Indonesia -- is so bad for him that I deserve death to make me stop it, and you say I should accept that as reasonable?

Let me explain this very clearly: I will not cease to exist just to suit him. I will not become something other than what I am just to suit him, either. All I will do for him -- and I will be happy to do it, eager to do it; and I bet millions of other people would be too -- is to leave him alone. But for that to work, he would have to leave me alone, too. And that means he would have to abandon groups like al-Qaeda who don't want to leave me alone, but want to come to my country and kill me. If he cannot bring himself to leave me and my kind alone, then he will be the one perpetuating and escalating whatever problems he thinks come from dealing with us.

He doesn't want to deal with us? Then let him stop dealing with us. Let him stop buying our goods, stop letting our tourists into his country, get his government to stop entering treaties with our government. Let him leave us alone. Let him take his complaints to the people who are really causing his problems, and leave the rest of the world -- all the common private citizens who are not Muslims or government officials or imperialists -- out of it.

But don't sit here and tell me that just by being a non-Muslim in North America, I'm somehow making it impossible for him to live a Muslim life in Indonesia. That is a crock of bull I will not accept.
One thing you need to realise when dealing with guys like this is you need to read between the lines. Minang has come to believe, by whatever internal reasoning or external brainwashing, that Al-Qaeda's success in their current venture to destroy the Western world and bring about an Islamic nation will solve the problems that he experiences. "I want the West to be destroyed" is not actually a statement of internal motivation, however it may seem to be so; rather, it is a statement made in the hope that his internal motivations will be satisfied in its making.

What this all boils down to is why people adopt a position of Islamic extremism in the first place. And these reasons vary immensely. For some, it's all about a desire for an end to hardships and conflict that plague their lands. For some, it's a sense of empathy for the victims of Imperial tyranny. For some (particularly gullible, admittedly), it's about the prolongation of one's life after death. It could even simply be a sense of having contributed in some way to the world; many do it out of sheer despair and loneliness at being isolated from the rest of the world.

Obviously I agree entirely that you should not and do not need to be killed for this more immediate personal motive, and I think it would do Minang's position a great service to acknowledge this fact. But in at least some cases, our actions do have an effect that might drive have an influencing role in driving people to terrorism. The OP has consistently blamed liberalism, which I think is a fair indication of his anger at corporate abuse of resources in other nations as I mentioned earlier, but that's just one example. The interference of the West in Afghanistan and Iraq, the fallout of the cold war, British Imperialism and Christian supremecism long before that have all promoted a sense of distrust and fear of us in the middle east. And what have we done to rectify these? We've branded them all "Terrorists" and developed our own racial and cultural distrust of them in return.

Whether we like it or not, they haven't fabricated this sense of loathing out of thin air. I don't think we can in any way compensate for the past, but I do think that it is only fair of them to ask that we acknowledge our partial responsibility for the way things are.

Al Qaeda is counterproductive to this goal right now. By villainising themselves to the West, they have made it systematically less likely that the West will admit their mistakes and seek to reform. Its members are being delusional if they think that what they want can be brought about by continuing their campaign of violence. But they are not some evil entity themselves, however much their words and actions may depict them to be so. The source of their motivation is universally human, and if they could just acknowledge and utilise this fact rather than relying on explosives and religious fundamentalism, they have lessons to teach us that we might actually learn from.

the only think historical fact you can try to debunk is his statement "USA did started it". And I you try to debunk that you are going to bite the dust.

No, clearly you won't. To say that "the USA did started it" (that's fucking terrible English, I might add) is to join G-dub in his "With us or against us..." total-fucking-lack-of-nuance boat.

As I quite clearly pointed out, the blame can only partially but laid at the feet of the United States. We could certainly talk about the militant nature of the founding years of Islam or the reaction of the Catholic Crusades. We could talk about events ranging back to the Siege of Vienna or Battle of Vienna. That's all old news and hypothetical and polemics.

What we could most easily talk about in forming this situation though, begins in the era of European imperialism starting in the middle of the seventeen-hundreds. The expansion of the British, French, Persian and Ottoman Empires throughout the middle east, and the continuation of the warrior-raiding culture of the Bedouins and tribes who would later come to be recognized as Arabs are what laid the groundwork for the modern challenges we face.

World War I is the event that catalyzed the modern middle east for strife and conflict. As the Western Allies dismembered the Central Powers, including the Ottoman Empire, it was the British and the French who claimed predominance in the region. Their policies of strategic division created regional hostilities and resentments. But, as bin Laden himself said, the single most important element was the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire.

With the removal of the only Muslim power from the global scene, and the elimination of the Caliphate, many Muslims, especially those concerned with identity, lost a major point of prestige. Further, the centralized religious authority of the Caliph was gone, (the restoration of which is one of the single greatest goals of Al-Q.) In messages bin Laden has talked about the "Crimes of 1918", something that we must not ignore.

Continued insults to prestige came in the form of European colonialism in the region, which lasted through the end of World War II. This solidified the need for the creation of a strong identity, which resulted in a concept of identity coalescing around Arab Nationalism. Arab Nationalism, like Soviet Communism to Russians, promised and awful lot, and failed to deliver. Although, it delivered just enough to maintain it's own power throughout the region through force, fear and scapegoating. The failures of nationalism drove many of the dejected and destitute (as well as much of the educated middle class) to a form of Islamic universalism, a "back to basics" movement.

The emergence of the state of Israel, and it's repeated successful defense against its far larger Arab neighbors remains a thorn in the side of Arab pride. Arab leaders long promised to do something about the "Zionist Pigs", have hyped the threat and danger, and have always failed to do jack. Without the polemics from the Arab leaders, it is unlikely that the existence of Israel would be such a contentious issue in the region. It would be a sticking point, but nothing near what it is.

Finally, the fall of the Soviet Union, and increasing American intervention in the region (and provision of support to the Arab Nationalist regimes, now that their previous Soviet backers are nonexistent) has led to many Muslims focusing on the United States as the tertiary source of their problems, even though the (somewhat disjointed) history I've laid out has proven it to be true.

So, who gets blame?

The UK, France, The Ottomans, Attaturk, Versailles, Arabs, Persians, Soviets/Russians, Israel, the US and the UN. Lot's of people, over a long period of time.