NationStates Jolt Archive

Even if that line is filled with sucky people?

case in point.

I love America. Faults and all. The best definition to me of a great country is the length of the line of the other people trying to get in.

Even if that line is filled with sucky people?

What's so bad about the South? I live in the South, and love it! The South is the best section of the US!!


In all fairness, I've always preferred the weather in the south when visiting the US, apart from the hurricanes, of course. Plus the natural environment is much nicer there, the Florida mangroves and the Florida Keys are calming for me. I have to give kudos for that. Plus, Southern Comfort whisky is very fine indeed. One of the things America has exported to the world that is "A Good Thing".


Christian Americans believe in Creation because it is true. :-D Seriously, though, that's why. You secularists believe in the faith of Evolution, we Christians believe in GOD. Not all Americans are Christians, and not all non-Christians believe in Evolution.


I think there is a difference between being secular, and believing in evolution. One could, I think, be both secular (as in believing in the importance of separation of church and state) and Christian (believe in the divinity of Jesus and the teachings of the Bible)? A secular state, or, perhaps a state that has it's own religion but does not intend to make it the only religion is important for the people in that state who do not share the main religion of that nation.


On Guns... they're part of our heritage. They are a right given to us by our fabulous Constitution; that's a document France changes every other year.


I believe that was added to your constitution to the threat of an invasion by the British at the time. I personally have my doubts that the writers of that part of the document foresaw the current situation of gun ownership in the US.


Death Penalty: There are crimes that deserve death. I believe that the death penalty should be expanded; instead of paying for the imprisonment of death-row-inmates for doznes of years before execution, just execute them a lot sooner. Saves money and space.

I disagree with the cost-justification for putting prisoners to death. I agree that there are crimes that deserve and warrant such punishment, for several reasons. I also agree that keeping people on death row for many years is wrong, though again for different reasons.

case in point.

I'm guessing that you don't know enough about me for that to be a dig at me but I'm STILL going to take offence. Like so ---> :gundge::sniper::upyours::(

I'm a sucky immigrant to the US. And I didn't move to America because I thought it was an amazing country.

As you can see from the poll results, it's a divise issue.

I don't think Europeans "hate" Americans, or vice versa, we just mostly have different views on the world and our respective places in it.

Personally I like America, but dislike some of your institutions and all to often displayed overt, chest-thumping, quite frankly shallow patriotism, particularly when you visit as tourists.
You'd be hard pressed to find a nicer people to talk to though - Americans are good conversation, contrary to the oft-stated "Fat Stupid American" myths that have spread here.

Valuable arguments, Ariddia. Hope to see more of your posts.

Thank you.

All currently existing countries suck. America is not exempt.

What have you got against San Marino? :p

Actually, there is a major division happening in U.S. politics right now, mainly among the Republicans(Evangical and Fiscal(or Libertarian)) but also a little among the Democrats(Blue-collar and Bleeding-Heart). Also, I don't know about European politics, but in American politics, people don't always stick exactly to the guidelines of their party. Thats why neither parties have a manifesto- their roles evolve over time, and the individuals among them all have signifigant diffrences. For example, Democrats from Kansas are more likely to be similar socialy to Republicans form Kansas than a Democrat from Mass. There are individual diffrences.

Actually, the Russians did a hell of a lot more ass-savng in WW II.
But don't worry, I've met many Americans here on the forum who weren't aware of that.

Plus for every fallen American in WWII about fifty Russians died. But they never made such heroic fuss about that.

That's because they were all evil commies :p

There's a distinction to be drawn between the country and its government. I have nothing against the United States. I oppose and despise its government.

The US, like most countries, appears to the outside world as a very mixed bag. On the one hand, we see a lot of loud-mouthed, ignorant (shockingly ignorant), bigoted, nationalist buffoons who, for some reason, seem proud of their ignorance and downright stupidity, and want the whole world to know about it. On the other hand, the US is a fascinatingly diverse country, with a fascinating culture, and a great many Americans are civil, educated, open-minded, interested in the rest of the world, intelligent, and capable of criticising their own government (intelligently), as well as the flaws in their own society. I would never consider myself "anti-American".

I wouldn't want my country to become like the United States, but that's not anti-Americanism. Americans are free to shape their own country as they see fit, and good luck to them with it. As long as they're happy with the result, and it isn't pushed onto other countries.

The problem is, some aspects of American society appear archaic to most of us Europeans. This sometimes leads some Europeans to view the US as a "backward" nation or as a "child nation", not quite mature or adult yet.

The three obvious examples are:
*Creationism, and the importance of religion in society
*the gun culture
*the death penalty

In France, we established secularism, complete seperation of religion and State, 102 years ago. When we see religious morals and values expressed by American politicians in government, our automatic reaction is to see US politics as stuck in the 19th century. Religion plays no part in politics here. Heck, most of the time we don't even know what religion our politicians are, if any. I've no idea what Sarkozy's religion is, nor Ségolène Royal's. It's a non-issue. The Creationist "debate" in the US alternately amuses and appalls us, re-enforcing the stereotype of Americans as immature and undeveloped, a "child people". I suppose we have to realise that American society is simply different, and of course realise that not all Americans (far from it) are Creationists. But from our perspective it just seems... strange.

The whole gun debate is another thing that strikes many of us as odd. It contributes to a stereotype of Americans as ignorant gun-toting rednecks with a "Far West" mentality. The gun debate is a non-issue here. Nobody argues that people should have guns. Nobody needs them. It's another point on which the US presents us with a glaring difference, which many of us may find difficult to understand... hence the stereotyping.

Then there's the death penalty. France abolished the death penalty in 1981, so again there's no debate about that here. The only politician who wants to re-introduce the death penalty is Le Pen. The fact that the US still has the death penalty makes it look incredibly backward and even barbaric by European standards. Especially since there's an EU consensus on this issue.

Having said all that, obviously these things stand out, and may tend to mask our commonalities with the US. They also mask the fact that a great many Americans are "just like us".

I do try to take a detached view and not to judge; to consider that the US' particularities, "backward" as they may seem by my country's standards, are its own to resolve. The problem comes when some Americans, notably in the US government, claim to be the leading voice in the Western world. That causes dissonance when some aspects of American society are widely perceived as trailing decades or more than a century behind most Western countries.

It's often tempting to stereotype a lot of Americans and look down on them rather condescendingly, as people who haven't yet reached "our" level of progress, rationality and maturity. But that's because the "odd" aspects of American society stand out so much.

I constantly remind myself that the US has an incredibly diverse society, with many admirable traits. It also has an interesting history, and a culture enriched by good literature and many good films (admittedly amidst many very bad ones).

There. I'm not sure quite where that leaves me... To sum up, I suppose I should just say that being "anti-American", in the sense of "hating America", is simplistic, absurd and irrational. The US is highly complex, and should be viewed as such.

i would totally agree with you, Aridd. there is a gulf of culture between the US and Europe.

in Europe, it seems, we have been through many of the issues facing the US, and this is where the 'backwards' image comes in. i would extend your examples to include the "gung-ho", militaristic approach often seen in the American government and in the media. in Europe it is pretty much rare to go to a town that does not have a cenotaph to the lives lost in the wold wars. the nations of the EU have been warring against each other for a thousand years or more. but today, and after WW2 and the creation of the EU, we have tried hard to put aside our differences and work together. war is seen to most Europeans, i believe, as a barbaric and awful practice. as such, when the US portrays a militaristic, unilateral, pro-war stance, this is seen as barbaric and backwards by many in Europe.

similarly many Euopean nations pride themselves on offering universal healthcare. in the UK, only but a tiny handful of radical politicians would dream of opposing the NHS. when, in America, people must pay hand-over-fist for their healthcare, this is again often seen as barbaric. healthcare in most of Europe has become all but an individual's right, and for the US to deny this as a universal right is often seen as backwards.


however, of course, these are all generalisations. but there is method to the madness.


other issues are more complex. when we hear news of 90% (is that right?) of americans not having a passport to travel outside the country, we see that as ridiculous. how could you not travel outside your own country? this adds to the 'ignorance myth'
but when you consider the US is larger in landmass than the EU, you can see why. i have rarely travelled outside the EU. in fact, i think the only non-European place i've been to is the US. so i am "guilty" of the same thing. just here we speak different languages in the states of the EU.



i personally find the hardcore capitalism and anti-Socialism found in the US to be baffling and often based around selfishness and greed, not to mention a closed-minded attitude considering many of the things some americans stereotypically consider 'evil communism' are actually merrily and successfully implimented in many European countries. but that's a much larger issue (for another day) and a very subjective one at that.

That around 500 megatons of nuclear ordinance would not fix. :sniper:

Afterall, it is the one self-important and egotistacal country in two continents called the americas and it claims the title of "America". As if!!!

Why do we, the citizens of the world, let these bullies and usurpers take sole ownership of the name. For Grondark's sake the Canadians, Mexicans, Bolivians, Peruvians, et al don't claim to be sole american country status.

Arrogance and hypocrisy and ignorance and stupidity of such a country clearly ranks it as the biggest waste of space on the planet.

[
You're probably right on that point. French arrogance, no doubt. ;) I do try, though.



You're welcome.



Thank you for the update.[/QUOTE]

Much thanks for the temperament and overall attitude of the discussion. As is the case in any democratic society, I agree to disagree.

i would totally agree with you, Aridd. there is a gulf of culture between the US and Europe.

in Europe, it seems, we have been through many of the issues facing the US, and this is where the 'backwards' image comes in. i would extend your examples to include the "gung-ho", militaristic approach often seen in the American government and in the media. in Europe it is pretty much rare to go to a town that does not have a cenotaph to the lives lost in the wold wars. the nations of the EU have been warring against each other for a thousand years or more. but today, and after WW2 and the creation of the EU, we have tried hard to put aside our differences and work together. war is seen to most Europeans, i believe, as a barbaric and awful practice. as such, when the US portrays a militaristic, unilateral, pro-war stance, this is seen as barbaric and backwards by many in Europe.

similarly many Euopean nations pride themselves on offering universal healthcare. in the UK, only but a tiny handful of radical politicians would dream of opposing the NHS. when, in America, people must pay hand-over-fist for their healthcare, this is again often seen as barbaric. healthcare in most of Europe has become all but an individual's right, and for the US to deny this as a universal right is often seen as backwards.


however, of course, these are all generalisations. but there is method to the madness.


other issues are more complex. when we hear news of 90% (is that right?) of americans not having a passport to travel outside the country, we see that as ridiculous. how could you not travel outside your own country? this adds to the 'ignorance myth'
but when you consider the US is larger in landmass than the EU, you can see why. i have rarely travelled outside the EU. in fact, i think the only non-European place i've been to is the US. so i am "guilty" of the same thing. just here we speak different languages in the states of the EU.



i personally find the hardcore capitalism and anti-Socialism found in the US to be baffling and often based around selfishness and greed, not to mention a closed-minded attitude considering many of the things some americans stereotypically consider 'evil communism' are actually merrily and successfully implimented in many European countries. but that's a much larger issue (for another day) and a very subjective one at that.


That is an issue that annoys me sometimes, the lack of knowledge about communism and socialism in the U.S. Whenever i told my friends i used to be slightly socialistic (I still am), they would be like "why do you support a systme that kills millions of its own people, is totalitarian...etc,etc." I always explain that communism is a economic, not totalitarian ideology, and that comparing the USSR to what my country would look like is like comparing Nazi Germany to America (Although for some of the 12-year-olds on this forum, that wouldn't be a stretch)

But never fear. MA, as always, is like a European country. We DO have universal healthcare up here, although its way too coomplicated for me to explain properly.

As for the passport thing? You hit the nail on the head. Why would we go to other countries when we're so varied ourselves? We're the second largest country in the world by landmass, so there really isn't that much we have to travel outside our own country to see. Alaska and the Northernmost states are pretty much the same as Canada, so why bother going into a diffrent country? Although i do think that there are more Americans than that that have a passport. Too many spring breakers in Mexico for me to think anything else.

Normally I'd agree with you about the militaristic thing. But thanks to Russia, I now firmly belive we should have a strong military. I think the EU should have a STRONGER military, frankly (again solely because of Russia).

Oh and buddy, OneLongDong? I know it may be hard to tell the diffrence between an American and a Canadian, but they usually take offense at being called Americans

I can sum it up just fine in four words:

Great country, terrible goverment.

exactly...we have our issues but the people overall are good...the republican government really screwed up the world big time...during the Clinton years the Americans were viewed as darlings in Europe. our economy made many of you extrememly rich. the USA is still the biggest donor of world aid, we still provide the most in AIDS research and prevention for Africa. there are a lot of things we do that are swept under the rug b/c of our right wing conservative idealouges. hopefully they are done in November and a more liberal/progressive person takes over as president.

lets also not forget that the USA starts problems in the middle was for one reason...it isnt oil as much as people think, it is the hypocrtical support for a genocidal regime that is Israel.

exactly...we have our issues but the people overall are good...the republican government really screwed up the world big time...during the Clinton years the Americans were viewed as darlings in Europe. our economy made many of you extrememly rich. the USA is still the biggest donor of world aid, we still provide the most in AIDS research and prevention for Africa. there are a lot of things we do that are swept under the rug b/c of our right wing conservative idealouges. hopefully they are done in November and a more liberal/progressive person takes over as president.

lets also not forget that the USA starts problems in the middle was for one reason...it isnt oil as much as people think, it is the hypocrtical support for a genocidal regime that is Israel.

Was a nice first post and a nice first paragraph until you took a hard left into the land of ignorant anti semetism. The Middle East has had its problems for two millenia before the US or the need for oil even existed. So the US didnt start anything.

in Europe, it seems, we have been through many of the issues facing the US, and this is where the 'backwards' image comes in. i would extend your examples to include the "gung-ho", militaristic approach often seen in the American government and in the media. in Europe it is pretty much rare to go to a town that does not have a cenotaph to the lives lost in the wold wars. the nations of the EU have been warring against each other for a thousand years or more. but today, and after WW2 and the creation of the EU, we have tried hard to put aside our differences and work together. war is seen to most Europeans, i believe, as a barbaric and awful practice. as such, when the US portrays a militaristic, unilateral, pro-war stance, this is seen as barbaric and backwards by many in Europe.

That's a good point. Europeans maintain the memory of having experienced war on their own ground, affecting civilians, ect... There's an awareness in Europe that war is a dreadful thing.

We're the second largest country in the world by landmass

Third, actually. ;)

other issues are more complex. when we hear news of 90% (is that right?) of americans not having a passport to travel outside the country, we see that as ridiculous. how could you not travel outside your own country? this adds to the 'ignorance myth'
but when you consider the US is larger in landmass than the EU, you can see why. i have rarely travelled outside the EU. in fact, i think the only non-European place i've been to is the US. so i am "guilty" of the same thing. just here we speak different languages in the states of the EU.




While I agree with a lot of the bitches Europeans have about us, they need to remember it takes more time to drive across Texas than it does to go halfway across Europe.

in Europe, it seems, we have been through many of the issues facing the US, and this is where the 'backwards' image comes in. i would extend your examples to include the "gung-ho", militaristic approach often seen in the American government and in the media. in Europe it is pretty much rare to go to a town that does not have a cenotaph to the lives lost in the wold wars.

Curious, would these Cenotaph's also include memorials to the US soldiers you graciously allowed to die fighting for you? Oh, I forget, no war now, so lets criticize the US. We'll see, if you enter war again, whether your "developed" government requires assistance. I'm sure things will be different, now that you have "developed".



the nations of the EU have been warring against each other for a thousand years or more. but today, and after WW2 and the creation of the EU, we have tried hard to put aside our differences and work together. war is seen to most Europeans, i believe, as a barbaric and awful practice. as such, when the US portrays a militaristic, unilateral, pro-war stance, this is seen as barbaric and backwards by many in Europe.

I don't believe the US portrays that. I believe the US portrays war as a necessary part of history, as well as an inevitable part of the future.

similarly many Euopean nations pride themselves on offering universal healthcare. in the UK, only but a tiny handful of radical politicians would dream of opposing the NHS. when, in America, people must pay hand-over-fist for their healthcare, this is again often seen as barbaric. healthcare in most of Europe has become all but an individual's right, and for the US to deny this as a universal right is often seen as backwards.

Is it somewhat strange that the EU feels the US barbaric for not having national health care, yet is somewhat less than excited about aiding those internationally who are repressed. Doesn't global prosperity bring with it some responsibility


however, of course, these are all generalisations. but there is method to the madness.


other issues are more complex. when we hear news of 90% (is that right?) of americans not having a passport to travel outside the country, we see that as ridiculous. how could you not travel outside your own country? this adds to the 'ignorance myth' but when you consider the US is larger in landmass than the EU, you can see why. i have rarely travelled outside the EU. in fact, i think the only non-European place i've been to is the US. so i am "guilty" of the same thing. just here we speak different languages in the states of the EU.

This statement sounds very much like foreign media US bashing. Combining the fact that the US citizen has little desire to travel outside the borders, along with the fact that our population is booming and immigration is excessive, and determining that US citizens are backwards, is an amazing leap of "naive" faith. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to believe that people like what we have? Freedom has its price, but it also has its bounty. How are the taxes in the EU? Federal, state and local combined? Just curious?

i personally find the hardcore capitalism and anti-Socialism found in the US to be baffling and often based around selfishness and greed, not to mention a closed-minded attitude considering many of the things some americans stereotypically consider 'evil communism' are actually merrily and successfully implimented in many European countries. but that's a much larger issue (for another day) and a very subjective one at that.[/QUOTE]

Do you often find people in the United States traveling to EU to buy goods, services, etc? How about health care? It would seem to me that, given the status of your wonderful country, your immigration would be bursting at the seams? Is that the case? What about land prices? Are they feasible for the poor? Or, maybe, just maybe, that media resource you keep talking about has you just a bit slanted in your belief system!

Again, thanks for the information. It challenges my perspective!

Piece of advice. Never come back to the south. EVER! The only good thing down here is the food and that depends greatly on which state you are currently in.

I guess it depends where IN the state also. I'm a tennessee person, and I've only had trouble with people who think they're from Hollywood. Then again, I'm only a fifteen minute drive from kentucky.

America, in my opinion, is an odd country. We've got a huge military, huge economic power, and huge reserves of food. And, as anyone who's ever been in a position of power can tell you, the people at the top get blamed for all the problems, and get asked to fix all the problems, even when it's really none of their business. Don't believe me? England dealt with the same thing when they were the world superpower.

If America quit meddling in world affairs, some people would be happy, but some would be deeply upset. Likewise, if America meddled even more, some would be VERY happy (for instance, a few countries in Africa), and other countries would be upset and feel crowded.

Neh. I figure, if people hate america so much, they shouldn't ask us for help. <.<;

I haven't the patience to read through the entire thread so I'll just sum up my opinion without commenting on what others may have said.

I have nothing against the US; I've been there, I like it and I've had many American friends and acquaintances throughout my life. The American people is generally well-meaning but due to questionable leadership during the past 50 years (or so) American foreign policies have lead to several debacles which have blemished the country's reputation (for example the Vietnam war, support for bloodthirsty dictators such as Pinochet, Trujillo and Franco, the Iran-Contras scandal and the current Iraqi quagmire).

I fully acknowledge that the enmity and mutual threats between the US and the Soviet Union called for vigilance, but one can't escape that some very dirty and compromising actions were taken on the part of the US administrations and organs such as the CIA in this process.

In some cases the driving force behind the various instances of foul play overseas seems to have consisted partly of pure and simple greed on the part of American (and affiliated) corporations. For example, a big part of the reason why the CIA helped to oust the Iranian president Mossadegh in the 50s was his policy of nationalizing the oil industry in that country, thus taking away the cash cow of British Petroleum. (Britain, then as now, was of course USA's bestest buddy on the stage of world politics.) Same thing happened in Guatemala in 1954, when president Arbenz brought upon himself the anger of the United Fruit Corporation by trying to nationalize the country's fruit industry.

I find these aspects of American foreign policy sad, since the US obviously has a tremendous potential to be a genuinely positive force in the world as long as you have sensible leaders who are willing to do the right things for the right reasons.

I haven't the patience to read through the entire thread so I'll just sum up my opinion without commenting on what others may have said.

I have nothing against the US; I've been there, I like it and I've had many American friends and acquaintances throughout my life. The American people is generally well-meaning but due to questionable leadership during the past 50 years (or so) American foreign policies have lead to several debacles which have blemished the country's reputation (for example the Vietnam war, support for bloodthirsty dictators such as Pinochet, Trujillo and Franco, the Iran-Contras scandal and the current Iraqi quagmire).

Franco? As in Spain? I actually think the American Foregin Legion (all voulenteer, NGO admittedly) helped the communists on that one. We really couldn't pick a side. Both equally distateful. As for Pineochet, I've never heard of that scandal, and apparently neither has the all-knowing-nerds of wikipedia ;) But i wouldn't put it past us. And I thought we helped kill Trujillio; a CIA document (Freedom of Info obtained) apparently patted itself on the back for supplying guns to the assasins.

Still, it isn't very hard to find regiems we did uphold.

I fully acknowledge that the enmity and mutual threats between the US and the Soviet Union called for vigilance, but one can't escape that some very dirty and compromising actions were taken on the part of the US administrations and organs such as the CIA in this process.

In some cases the driving force behind the various instances of foul play overseas seems to have consisted partly of pure and simple greed on the part of American (and affiliated) corporations. For example, a big part of the reason why the CIA helped to oust the Iranian president Mossadegh in the 50s was his policy of nationalizing the oil industry in that country, thus taking away the cash cow of British Petroleum. (Britain, then as now, was of course USA's bestest buddy on the stage of world politics.) Same thing happened in Guatemala in 1954, when president Arbenz brought upon himself the anger of the United Fruit Corporation by trying to nationalize the country's fruit industry.

Exactly the two examples I was just about to use. That was disgusting on our part.

I find these aspects of American foreign policy sad, since the US obviously has a tremendous potential to be a genuinely positive force in the world as long as you have sensible leaders who are willing to do the right things for the right reasons.

Yeah, sheesh I can kinda remember how it felt to be secure in the knowledge that we had a President whose moral compass was straight (when it didnt involve the ladies:fluffle:) when we were under Clinton. Those were much better years. We really should do something about Darfur; there really isn't very much that can go wrong with that (it isn't Iraq, its the type of place where we would kick ass)