NationStates Jolt Archive

I just finished reading an interesting article about anti-americanism in Europe. It said that anti-americanism, bordering on racism, is pretty wide spread. This view holds Americans in complete contempt. I know we have had several threads about how bad the US really is. So, I was wondering, Europeans: what is your view on America?

I view it through blood-tinted glasses.
Or blood-splattered. If you prefer.

I just finished reading an interesting article about anti-americanism in Europe. It said that anti-americanism, bordering on racism, is pretty wide spread. This view holds Americans in complete contempt. I know we have had several threads about how bad the US really is. So, I was wondering, Europeans: what is your view on America?

What was the article? Is it linkable?

It said that anti-americanism, bordering on racism, is pretty wide spread.

It's funny how often I hear that when in the US, but never experienced it in the 3 years I lived in Europe.

I can sum it up just fine in four words:

Great country, terrible goverment.

America? I live in America, beautiful country, beautiful cities, terrible population (especially in the south) and a government that is akin to the plague. And I mean that literally. I hate my country's government.

What was the article? Is it linkable?

Here it is. It's extremely long (139 pages). I'm still reading it.
http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-05102006-104506/unrestricted/Johnston_dis.pdf

And also I'm going by several threads I've seen on NSG.

America? I live in America, beautiful country, beautiful cities, terrible population (especially in the south) and a government that is akin to the plague. And I mean that literally. I hate my country's government. I agree with this guy.

Did you get a fire truck on standby before you posted this?

I have a prediction this thread will either get someone a few day ban which will result in said thread being closed. Call my physcic but I have a good feeling about this one.

I agree with this guy.

Thank you. Where do you live?

I live in Tennessee, so I have first-hand experience with the terrible population in the southern United States.

I've generally found, generally mind you so enough of the exceptions already, that those most vociferous against America have never actually been to America.

There is something wonderful about America, I'm not sure it's that, for many Europeans, you feel as though you're in a movie - everywhere you look you can see a scene, from steaming drains in New York to vast countryside in the Midwest to the lights of Las Vegas and the trams of San Francisco.

It's hard not to like America having visited unless, I suppose, you have a bad experience - same for any country.

It's easy to hate an abstract notion of what America is, or join in the cries of 'uncultured bully', especially when Americans can appear such a mixture of confidence/ignorance/brash in other countries - you guys are loud :)

Currently in New York, but I've lived in Virginia, Massachusetts, Washington State, and New Jersey.

Currently in New York, but I've lived in Virginia, Massachusetts, Washington State, and New Jersey.

Piece of advice. Never come back to the south. EVER! The only good thing down here is the food and that depends greatly on which state you are currently in.

I'm in America right now so I'm viewing it normally

Piece of advice. Never come back to the south. EVER! The only good thing down here is the food and that depends greatly on which state you are currently in.Yeah, Virginia, for lack of a better word, was crap. Even though I was in Richmond, it was just utter crap.

Piece of advice. Never come back to the south. EVER! The only good thing down here is the food and that depends greatly on which state you are currently in.

Grits are pretty amazing though, you have to admit. Grits with cheeseeeeeeeeeee. Oh man. I'm drooling.

I've generally found, generally mind you so enough of the exceptions already, that those most vociferous against America have never actually been to America.

There is something wonderful about America, I'm not sure it's that, for many Europeans, you feel as though you're in a movie - everywhere you look you can see a scene, from steaming drains in New York to vast countryside in the Midwest to the lights of Las Vegas and the trams of San Francisco.

It's hard not to like America having visited unless, I suppose, you have a bad experience - same for any country.

It's easy to hate an abstract notion of what America is, or join in the cries of 'uncultured bully', especially when Americans can appear such a mixture of confidence/ignorance/brash in other countries - you guys are loud :)

Its habit really, most European countries (save for Russia and maybe France) can fit easily inside the state of Texas, sometimes more than once. This abundance of space had inevitably led to the fact that Americans seem overly loud and very poor drivers in smaller countries. We are just used to having more space between us and the next guy. (i.e. In America it considered rude and an invasion of personal space to just walk up to someones table in a resteraunt and sit down; while in Germany or the Netherlands, you can just walk up and sit down and no one will say a thing.) I guess that is a poor example, but it is the only one I can think of.

Currently in New York, but I've lived in Virginia, Massachusetts, Washington State, and New Jersey.

Only one of those is a quality state *winks*

Anyway, yeah. I love the country. I love my town. I love my public education (besides the fact that we're $3M under-funded, we're a kick-ass high school) and I love the people around me. But the national government makes me cry.

Yeah, Virginia, for lack of a better word, was crap. Even though I was in Richmond, it was just utter crap.

Never been to Virginia, but I can say from personal experience that Georgia sucks, North Carolina sucks, Arkansas sucks, Alabama sucks, and Mississippi sucks. Florida wasn't too bad though.

Grits are pretty amazing though, you have to admit. Grits with cheeseeeeeeeeeee. Oh man. I'm drooling.

Yeah, but you can get Grits anywhere a there's a Waffle House.

America? I live in America, beautiful country, beautiful cities, terrible population (especially in the south) and a government that is akin to the plague. And I mean that literally. I hate my country's government.

There's a lot of ignorant people in the south, but most of them are good at heart. There's still some rascism, I suppose moreso in the countryside, but where I live, things are pretty good. Other than that, your post summarizes my view of the US.

Yeah, but you can get Grits anywhere a there's a Waffle House.

When I went through Biloxi after Hurricane Katrina, everything was destroyed except for the Waffle Houses. I saw two every mile, in completely perfect condition.

I swear, those buildings are invincible.:p

There's a lot of ignorant people in the south, but most of them are good at heart. There's still some rascism, I suppose moreso in the countryside, but where I live, things are pretty good. Other than that, your post summarizes my view of the US.

You're right, most Southerns have a good heart, and they truely believe they are doing what is best; my only problem is that they throw religion into the most trivial subjects and blow a gasket if you don't agree with them. And Baptist Churches make me throw up. Everytime I attended one as a child, a part of me died inside. (This accounts for the empty feeling I have. :()

Other than that, Southerns are generally agreeable (just avoid politic speak while visiting a southern state)

When I went through Biloxi after Hurricane Katrina, everything was destroyed except for the Waffle Houses. I saw two every mile, in completely perfect condition.

I swear, those buildings are invincible.:p

They are small, stout, and built with steel, and brick. (Instead of plastic and plywood like *coughIHOPcough-)

They are small, stout, and built with steel, and brick. (Instead of plastic and plywood like *coughIHOPcough-)

BLASPHEMER!

Funny that a bunch of American posts are viewing the South through a similar lens Europeans use to view America.

BLASPHEMER!

*Runs and hides from impending search by the IHOP Inquisition*

America? I live in America, beautiful country, beautiful cities, terrible population (especially in the south) and a government that is akin to the plague. And I mean that literally. I hate my country's government.

So... Would you prefer a dictatorship?:confused:
What's wrong with the south?

There's a lot of ignorant people in the south, but most of them are good at heart. There's still some rascism, I suppose moreso in the countryside, but where I live, things are pretty good. Other than that, your post summarizes my view of the US.

They're not too racist. My family's from Louisiana and I have white, black and latino cousins. At least in S. Louisiana, they don't care.

Funny that a bunch of American posts are viewing the South through a similar lens Europeans use to view America.

Well America is anything south of Canada...so, basically, America is the South.

*Runs and hides from impending search by the IHOP Inquisition*

You have spoken out against against his holiness, the Lord IHOP and his church of pancakey goodness. Burn in syrupy hell for your heresy.

Funny that a bunch of American posts are viewing the South through a similar lens Europeans use to view America.

Because Europeans generally see southerns and our southern president on television and on the internet and they always make idiots out of themselves. Because Europeans see no other examples of Americans, and most of them will never travel to the U.S they generalize and assume we are all total arrogant dumbasses.

Am I close to what the problem is?

As the whole continent rather than a single nation

Which is just as stereotypical as the one some Europeans have. *is proud to say he's not one of them*
I've even been to Georgia, and I rather liked it down there. Even if the heat was more than I could get used to.:D

But were you, or were you not, Caucasian at the time of your visit?
Hrm?

Funny that a bunch of American posts are viewing the South through a similar lens Europeans use to view America.
Which is just as stereotypical as the one some Europeans have. *is proud to say he's not one of them*
I've even been to Georgia, and I rather liked it down there. Even if the heat was more than I could get used to.:D

You have spoken out against against his holiness, the Lord IHOP and his church of pancakey goodness. Burn in syrupy hell for your heresy.

"Ahhhh! The sticky pain! Ahhhh!" *licks own arms* "Mmmmm....tasty."

But were you, or were you not, Caucasian at the time of your visit?
Hrm?
As white as driven snow. Not many blacks around here (Iceland used to be so bad about this sort of thing that they didn't even want blacks serving at Keflavik AFb..)

Because Europeans generally see southerns and our southern president on television and on the internet and they always make idiots out of themselves. Because Europeans see no other examples of Americans, and most of them will never travel to the U.S they generalize and assume we are all total arrogant dumbasses.

Am I close to what the problem is?

It's funny, most Americans view Germany under similar circumstances. Most stereotypes about Germans, mainly beer and Nazis, came from Bavaria, which is in many regards the German West Virginia. The rest of Germany can be very different.

It's funny, most Americans view Germany under similar circumstances. Most stereotypes about Germans, mainly beer and Nazis, came from Bavaria, which is in many regards the German West Virginia. The rest of Germany can be very different.

Same with the assumptions in the Southern United States that China is some uber ebul power dead set on America's destruction. Russia is communist. France is gay (Wait...I'll have to think on this one) and that Homosexuals and Atheist's are the devil incarnate.

Just to name a few...

Example of a southerners worst nightmare:

Two gay mixed chinese-french hippie communist homosexual atheists make out in front of a school bus of elementary schoolers.

"OH NOZ!!!!! PROTECT THE CHILDREN!!!!"


***disclaimer: the above was a joke!

As white as driven snow. Not many blacks around here (Iceland used to be so bad about this sort of thing that they didn't even want blacks serving at Keflavik AFb..)

Are you serious? Was it Americans or Icelanders not serving blacks?

How do I view America?

*looks around*
*occasionally snaps a picture*


:D

Are you serious? Was it Americans or Icelanders not serving blacks?

Serving, not being served.
They probably didn't want to hire blacks.

It's funny how often I hear that when in the US, but never experienced it in the 3 years I lived in Europe.

Even in my business travels, I have yet to see it......

Everyone rags on America because the South is filled with rednecks who can yell loud. -__-

The West coast isn't so bad, 'cept for Los Angles.

But hell, everyone stareotypes. When I say Germany you probably think of Nazi's and Beer. France, pussies and white flags, England, bad teeth ad horrible accents.

Etc...Etc...

Never been to Virginia, but I can say from personal experience that Georgia sucks, North Carolina sucks, Arkansas sucks, Alabama sucks, and Mississippi sucks. Florida wasn't too bad though.

Some parts of Florida are Retired-New Yorkers-Central. aka God's Waiting Room.

Everyone rags on America because the South is filled with rednecks who can yell loud. -__-

The West coast isn't so bad, 'cept for Los Angles.

But hell, everyone stareotypes. When I say Germany you probably think of Nazi's and Beer. France, pussies and white flags, England, bad teeth ad horrible accents.

Etc...Etc...

Spain - Mexicano speak
Russia - red commies
Norway - SATANIC METAL! KICK ASS!
Poland - Germany's bitch along with France

etc....

Same with the assumptions in the Southern United States that China is some uber ebul power dead set on America's destruction. Russia is communist. France is gay (Wait...I'll have to think on this one) and that Homosexuals and Atheist's are the devil incarnate.

Just to name a few...

Example of a southerners worst nightmare:

Two gay mixed chinese-french hippie communist homosexual atheists make out in front of a school bus of elementary schoolers.

"OH NOZ!!!!! PROTECT THE CHILDREN!!!!"


***disclaimer: the above was a joke! LOL!

When I was in Kansas, I seriously felt like I was going to be beaten up. One, I'm openly gay, two, I'm disabled, and three, I'm black. I was like "oh shit, SOMETHING is going to happen to me if I am not careful." LOL.

And I was right, I was harassed quite a bit. :rolleyes:

"Ahhhh! The sticky pain! Ahhhh!" *licks own arms* "Mmmmm....tasty."

WHAT?!?! YOU HAVE DEFEATED THE SYRUP OF ETERNAL PAIN?!?!? You must be REEDUCATED...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSTiU0SyYQM

I'm sorry. I had to post that.

Some parts of Florida are Retired-New Yorkers-Central. aka God's Waiting Room.

The only thing I hated about Florida is that I made the mistake of going there mid-summer and the humidity at Miami Beach was suffocating.

Never been to Virginia, but I can say from personal experience that Georgia sucks, North Carolina sucks, Arkansas sucks, Alabama sucks, and Mississippi sucks. Florida wasn't too bad though.
Eh, I've found that parts, at least, of Georgia are okay. As much as I complain about the state I live in, most people here aren't too bad, but I suppose that really applies to people everywhere. Most people just want to live their lives, have a good future, possibly a kid or two, grow old and die. Now, there are certain people I try to avoid discussing politics or religion with around here, but... mostly, it's not too bad. But then, I live in a college town (makes it a lot easier to get to class, y'see.), and those tend to have people of a slightly higher intellectual caliber, even a fairly conservative one like UGA.

Even in my business travels, I have yet to see it......

You know, I've not seen it too often (I have cousins in Denmark, so I'm over on that side of the pond on occasion), but there was one day when I was passing through Paris, and we had a 4ish hour wait till our next plane, and some people in the airport said things that were really not nice about me and those with me, not bothering to lower their voices-- probably assuming I couldn't speak French. They went really red when I asked them, in French, to please stop it. :D

But most people are pretty nice. I've actually quite often gotten pity for being stuck with Shrubya than I have malice.

LOL!

When I was in Kansas, I seriously felt like I was going to be beaten up. One, I'm openly gay, two, I'm disabled, and three, I'm black. I was like "oh shit, SOMETHING is going to happen to me if I am not careful." LOL.

And I was right, I was harassed quite a bit. :rolleyes:

Well maybe you shouldn't be?

Welcome to America!

LOL!

When I was in Kansas, I seriously felt like I was going to be beaten up. One, I'm openly gay, two, I'm disabled, and three, I'm black. I was like "oh shit, SOMETHING is going to happen to me if I am not careful." LOL.

And I was right, I was harassed quite a bit. :rolleyes:

I am so sorry for all the harrassment you suffered. I am also sorry you had the misfortune of going to Kans-ass.

[I've never been there, but a friend of mine has (he's atheist) and he was beat up by a bunch of bible thumpers screaming about his impending doom in the burning fires of hell]

But hell, everyone stareotypes. When I say Germany you probably think of Nazi's and Beer. France, pussies and white flags, England, bad teeth ad horrible accents.

Etc...Etc...

Germany- Punk music and.... well, yes beer.
France- Hot as hell and beautiful museums, galleries, historical sights
England- Sexy accents and tea

ha! You only got 1/6.

WHAT?!?! YOU HAVE DEFEATED THE SYRUP OF ETERNAL PAIN?!?!? You must be REEDUCATED...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSTiU0SyYQM

I'm sorry. I had to post that.
:D

I want that 50 seconds of my life back. :mad:

No. Those fifty seconds are irredeemable.

*splits 25 seconds between me and Julianus II*

WHAT?!?! YOU HAVE DEFEATED THE SYRUP OF ETERNAL PAIN?!?!? You must be REEDUCATED...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSTiU0SyYQM

I'm sorry. I had to post that.

I want that 50 seconds of my life back. :mad:

Are you serious? Was it Americans or Icelanders not serving blacks?
Dead serious, and it was us the Icelanders who didn't want them. (as in we didn't even want them inside the country, period)

Note that I am not saying I am proud of this fact, nor that I agreed with it. In fact I am deeply ashamed of my own country for this ridicolous bigotry.

It's funny how often I hear that when in the US, but never experienced it in the 3 years I lived in Europe.

Even in my business travels, I have yet to see it......

Well you can't be looking very hard - it's there in snide media remarks, in message boards, in general public chat - to think many Europeans don't hold negative feelings towards America - not all, but a substantial amount - is incorrect.

More so in the west of Europe than the east to be honest, it's still there though.

Interesting link (http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/bbc06-3/index.html) though it's from 2004 - my mistake, it's 2006

I am so sorry for all the harrassment you suffered. I am also sorry you had the misfortune of going to Kans-ass.

[I've never been there, but a friend of mine has (he's atheist) and he was beat up by a bunch of bible thumpers screaming about his impending doom in the burning fires of hell]Yeah, especially because I wasn't doing anything wrong in any of the situations I was being called a faggot or being physically abused.

Well you can't be looking very hard - it's there in snide media remarks, in message boards, in general public chat - to think many Europeans don't hold negative feelings towards America - not all, but a substantial amount - is incorrect.

More so in the west of Europe than the east to be honest, it's still there though.

I would think the average European is busy worrying about day to day life then sitting around and bitching about us.

Even when I was in Paris which is rather legendary for their contempt of the American; I found them to be friendly and polite. The ones I chatted with were interested to hear a nobodies views on things rather then what the tele tells them.

People tend to treat you nice if you you threat them nice.

Then again I tend to chat with "adults" ;)

Sorry Americans, but saying 'I love my country but not my government' is not good enough, not when you pride yourself on you're democratic institutions so greatly. The American people are responsible for their current government because they elected it, through their apathy, ignorance and indifference to public affairs they opened the door for the GOP, laid out the mat, and welcomed them inside for a cup of tea.

If you wanted to change you're system you could, in one week the American people could show true popular power, that is after all what you're republic was based upon. But the truth is this, deep down the American people accepted and wanted the corruption of their system, they let the elites and corporates in because they didn't care, after all they were ignorant whites who didn't care about poor people or any minorities. American politics today is a farcical ceremony of greed, when the white on right have their cultural-pseudo-racism placated by anti-immigration stances, the 'left' liberals have their 'guilt' placated by welfare capitalism to minorities while they do well for themselves.

Blaming is an interesting thing, and it makes people feel good to place it certain individuals, but in reality those politicians are just a manifestation of the corrupt and superficial culture of America. Don't think this is a nationalistic thing, my countrymen are much the same.

Sorry Americans, but saying 'I love my country but not my government' is not good enough, not when you pride yourself on you're democratic institutions so greatly. The American people are responsible for their current government because they elected it, through their apathy, ignorance and indifference to public affairs they opened the door for the GOP, laid out the mat, and welcomed them inside for a cup of tea.


The poison, dagger, or noose?
No good options anywhere.
Each party and every politician is good in one area and terrible in another.
As far as I have seen.

Oh come on, am I the only one who is willing to say what a reactionary, backward and superficial culture America has? It makes me sick.

Sorry Americans, but saying 'I love my country but not my government' is not good enough, not when you pride yourself on you're democratic institutions so greatly. The American people are responsible for their current government because they elected it, through their apathy, ignorance and indifference to public affairs they opened the door for the GOP, laid out the mat, and welcomed them inside for a cup of tea.

If you wanted to change you're system you could, in one week the American people could show true popular power, that is after all what you're republic was based upon. But the truth is this, deep down the American people accepted and wanted the corruption of their system, they let the elites and corporates in because they didn't care, after all they were ignorant whites who didn't care about poor people or any minorities. American politics today is a farcical ceremony of greed, when the white on right have their cultural-pseudo-racism placated by anti-immigration stances, the 'left' liberals have their 'guilt' placated by welfare capitalism to minorities while they do well for themselves.

Blaming is an interesting thing, and it makes people feel good to place it certain individuals, but in reality those politicians are just a manifestation of the corrupt and superficial culture of America. Don't think this is a nationalistic thing, my countrymen are much the same.

Well the first election, he lost the popular vote. I think mainly the Democrats lost because of Clinton's affair, which in my opinion made him even more admirable, he was so slick. As for the second, I wish Howard Dean hadn't had the little slip up, the media was out to get him, and he should have been more careful. I'm sure if Kerry hadn't won the primaries and been swiftboated, the Democrats would have won. And, you forget that there are plenty of young people that would have voted against Bush had they been able to vote.

Well you can't be looking very hard - it's there in snide media remarks, in message boards, in general public chat - to think many Europeans don't hold negative feelings towards America - not all, but a substantial amount - is incorrect.

More so in the west of Europe than the east to be honest, it's still there though.

Interesting link (http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/bbc06-3/index.html) though it's from 2004 - my mistake, it's 2006

Yes, I'm sure the problem is with me just not noticing it, not that the media and Internet are full of assholes and people who severely exaggerate things.

For the record I lived in Germany for 2.5 years, and France for 6 months. When living in France I attended a French university and spent the majority of my time with French students. One would imagine that if I were to experience this supposedly pervasive anti-Americanism that I would experience it there, no?

Oh come on, am I the only one who is willing to say what a reactionary, backward and superficial culture America has? It makes me sick.

No.

You are the only one crazy enough to think it is purely an American construct.

Sorry Americans, but saying 'I love my country but not my government' is not good enough, not when you pride yourself on you're democratic institutions so greatly. The American people are responsible for their current government because they elected it, through their apathy, ignorance and indifference to public affairs they opened the door for the GOP, laid out the mat, and welcomed them inside for a cup of tea.

If you wanted to change you're system you could, in one week the American people could show true popular power, that is after all what you're republic was based upon. But the truth is this, deep down the American people accepted and wanted the corruption of their system, they let the elites and corporates in because they didn't care, after all they were ignorant whites who didn't care about poor people or any minorities. American politics today is a farcical ceremony of greed, when the white on right have their cultural-pseudo-racism placated by anti-immigration stances, the 'left' liberals have their 'guilt' placated by welfare capitalism to minorities while they do well for themselves.

Blaming is an interesting thing, and it makes people feel good to place it certain individuals, but in reality those politicians are just a manifestation of the corrupt and superficial culture of America. Don't think this is a nationalistic thing, my countrymen are much the same.

I'd like to disagree. But I can't.... When my country re-elected GWBush, my faith in America took a serious blow.

Fantastic.

Yes, I'm sure the problem is with me just not noticing it, not that the media and Internet are full of assholes and people who severely exaggerate things.

For the record I lived in Germany for 2.5 years, and France for 6 months. When living in France I attended a French university and spent the majority of my time with French students. One would imagine that if I were to experience this supposedly pervasive anti-Americanism that I would experience it there, no?

I hang around with plenty of people who like me as well, doesn't mean there aren't a bunch of people out there who think I'm an ass.

A racist in Queens tends to keep quiet.

People have a negative attitude towards America, and often more so in Europe than other countries - there's a variety of reasons for this.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, that it's not as pervasive as people make out? Perhaps, but it's still fairly easy to find negative views on America.

I've linked to a poll, and you can say no poll is accurate but it should at least be useful in terms of comparative opinions - America comes 2nd to Iran and is noticeably negative in west Europe.

No.

You are the only one crazy enough to think it is purely an American construct.

You obviously didn't read my post then, because I clearly said that it wasn't, this culture is widespread across the world indeed, but America clearly spawned it and therefore holds responsibility, and because it originated from America, it is clear that America is the country most infested to the core by it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, that it's not as pervasive as people make out?

That's exactly what I'm saying. And not only that, "anti-Americanism" generally means that they dislike our government's policies, not individual Americans. I've met very few Europeans who had anything positive to say about our government. Of course, I could say the same about Americans...

You obviously didn't read my post then, because I clearly said that it wasn't, this culture is widespread across the world indeed, but America clearly spawned it and therefore holds responsibility, and because it originated from America, it is clear that America is the country most infested to the core by it.

So if I say something stupid and everyone else follows me, it is my fault they are all idiots?

You are also working with vague concepts here. Good to know you pinned their origin to a certain country.

That's exactly what I'm saying. And not only that, "anti-Americanism" generally means that they dislike our government's policies, not individual Americans. I've met very few Europeans who had anything positive to say about our government. Of course, I could say the same about Americans...

And that's where I take difference, the American people could easily change their corrupted system if they wished, but they do not. Maybe if America was run by a total dictatorship without elections then I would concede the problem is the government and not the people, but as limited as US democracy is - it's not so low that it cannot be changed, all that is missing is the popular will to do so. America is a reflection of the people, including the government, trying to hide from it or switch blame does not diminish this fact, and it will only be when the American people themselves rise up and stop being manipulated that this corrupt culture will end.

I've lived in the states for nine years so I'll give my input.

Well, let's see. Overall the country has a lot of good economic and education opportunities. There are quite a bit of advantages such as the public libraries, schools, etc.

On the most part the people are quite kind and tolerant, although a good portion are relatively xenophobic and elitist. Still, there are some extremely compassionate and intelligent people.

The government is trying to do the right things in most cases, but it's not free of corruption and incompetency. I'm not a big fan of the conservatism/religious fundamentalism that bogs down the govt. Oh, and I also wished the govt cared more about the African and Hispanic Americans.

Oh, and I have mixed views on American culture. Personally, I'd prefer America during the civil rights movement of the 60s because the young people mostly banded together under a common cause. I'd take a generation of counterculture, free-minded, intellectual thinkers over a generation of materialistic kids who care more about money and cars (of course, that's a sweeping generalisation).

Overall, its an okay/good country. It's got some major social issues to work out, but all things take time.

Yeah, Virginia, for lack of a better word, was crap. Even though I was in Richmond, it was just utter crap.

Ha! I lived in the liberal haven of Virgina, so I got all of the advantages with none of the backwardism.

I've lived in the states for nine years so I'll give my input.

Well, let's see. Overall the country has a lot of good economic and education opportunities. There are quite a bit of advantages such as the public libraries, schools, etc.

On the most part the people are quite kind and tolerant, although a good portion are relatively xenophobic and elitist. Still, there are some extremely compassionate and intelligent people.

The government is trying to do the right things in most cases, but it's not free of corruption and incompetency. I'm not a big fan of the conservatism/religious fundamentalism that bogs down the govt. Oh, and I also wished the govt cared more about the African and Hispanic Americans.

Oh, and I have mixed views on American culture. Personally, I'd prefer America during the civil rights movement of the 60s because the young people mostly banded together under a common cause. I'd take a generation of counterculture, free-minded, intellectual thinkers over a generation of materialistic kids who care more about money and cars (of course, that's a sweeping generalisation).

Overall, its an okay/good country. It's got some major social issues to work out, but all things take time.

I agree for the most part, but I'm afraid your 60s dream won't happen. Most people my age are materialistic (although many aren't too severe), a lot don't really care about their education, but they wouldn't mind getting high and lots of sex. But I think we're missing some of the key components...

What culture specifically are you talking about?

Zee filthzy Ameericahnze.

You obviously didn't read my post then, because I clearly said that it wasn't, this culture is widespread across the world indeed, but America clearly spawned it and therefore holds responsibility, and because it originated from America, it is clear that America is the country most infested to the core by it.

What culture specifically are you talking about?

I've lived in the states for nine years so I'll give my input.

Well, let's see. Overall the country has a lot of good economic and education opportunities. There are quite a bit of advantages such as the public libraries, schools, etc.

On the most part the people are quite kind and tolerant, although a good portion are relatively xenophobic and elitist. Still, there are some extremely compassionate and intelligent people.

The government is trying to do the right things in most cases, but it's not free of corruption and incompetency. I'm not a big fan of the conservatism/religious fundamentalism that bogs down the govt. Oh, and I also wished the govt cared more about the African and Hispanic Americans.

Oh, and I have mixed views on American culture. Personally, I'd prefer America during the civil rights movement of the 60s because the young people mostly banded together under a common cause. I'd take a generation of counterculture, free-minded, intellectual thinkers over a generation of materialistic kids who care more about money and cars (of course, that's a sweeping generalisation).

Overall, its an okay/good country. It's got some major social issues to work out, but all things take time.

I am more referring to the Reaganite reaction against the 60's counter-culture after Carter was kicked out of office, the kinda dumb-white-nationalist culture that pervades America today.

I am more referring to the Reaganite reaction against the 60's counter-culture after Carter was kicked out of office, the kinda dumb-white-nationalist culture that pervades America today.

Nah, it's the same thing as Saudi Arabia, except over there its the stupid-arab-nationalist culture. This sort of attitude has been in every part of the world for just about forever. Now I guess that particular brand came from America, but in this case I think all brands are equal.

Time for a Texans p.o.v. The reason Bush even got reelected (yeah I helped, I was dumb and pro-war, but have now seen the light) was because of the wars in Afghanistan (an understandable one) and Iraq (we need to get out). If you look at American history, we aren't too good about changing presidents during a war, Vietnam being the only exception. I'm conservative, but if you call me Republican I'll hunt you down and harm you. Generally what y'all have said about my country has been accurate. To all the Southern haters out there, there's a reason why the phrase is SOUTHERN hospitality and not YANKEE hospitality ;), had to say it. Any way if you ain't been here you need to come. I feel the best way to learn is by experience. I went to Europe a few years back. I met some of the nicest people over there, especially in Paris, during Bastille Day week. 'Course, it probably helped that I actually tried to learn French (and German and Italian) and tried speaking it (most likely butchered it too :rolleyes:). One thing pervades through all cultures and that's if you respect them they respect you. I try to represent the culture of my state as best I can (the positive culture). I will go ahead and say, if any of y'all ever come to Texas, keep this in mind, we Texans are the nicest people you will ever meet, until we get behind the wheel of a car! As for the heat, you Europeans need to go to Venice, Italy for a day in the middle of summer! That was the sixth place I went to and we ain't got that kind of humidity here in Texas! (dadgum Mediterranean). Anyway I'll leave y'all alone now.

I've lived in the states for nine years so I'll give my input.



Have you lived in all 50 states? You might want to mention where you lived.

People vary from state to state.....

I just finished reading an interesting article about anti-americanism in Europe. It said that anti-americanism, bordering on racism, is pretty wide spread. This view holds Americans in complete contempt. I know we have had several threads about how bad the US really is. So, I was wondering, Europeans: what is your view on America?
I like America, Brazil, Peru, Colombia, Paraguay, Guyana - with the possible exception of that country in the north which thinks it's the only one which can call itself America.

Y'know, considering the fact that in Europe, the last time a country gave a lame exscuse for invading another country, was 1939, and it resulted in WWII, I dont think its any wonder that so many of them hate us.

See, we have the balls to claim we are "The land of the Free, and blah, blah.."
and yet, we torture, and detain captives without trials, and only let a small number of them go as a token.

We have the temerity to suggest that we have a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people", and yet, the average citizen has absolutely no say in what actions thier president takes, despite 3/4 of the nation objecting to what he does.

If this isnt arrogance, hippocracy, and smarminess, then what the hell is?

We claim to be "the good guys", that our intentions are noble, and that we can do no wrong, and yet we pull some of the lamest things we can think of all in the name of some "greater good".

Its sad that the average american may not fully understand the nasty, and unconstitutional things we do, on a daily basis.

How do I see America?
Pretty clearly, and its not exactly a pretty picture.

I like America, Brazil, Peru, Colombia, Paraguay, Guyana - with the possible exception of that country in the north which thinks it's the only one which can call itself America.

LOL...Which other country calls itself America? Puh-lease....

You know, it's mostly annoying Euro-fags who are anti-American who just want to piss off Americans by saying this "USian" crap....or say "America isn't really America".

For instance, most Canadians would NEVER want to be called American, since they devote their entire existance into proving they are not American.

If you talk about America or Americans, EVERYONE knows who you are talking about...people don't generally just talk about geographical terms....just like most people don't just ramble on about "Eurasians" or whatever...

North American.
Central American.
South American.

Those are the three sections that we learn...in English we'd never call a Argentinian an American, but a South American, for instance.

I selected "Other." In the United States, as with other Western cultures, public policy and public opinion are vastly different (public policy is WELL to the right of public opinion on most issues). It happens to be a very free society (probably the most free in the World), though it is also a very inclusive and passive culture. In the last 25 years or so, it has become a very passive culture thanks to the public relations industry and cable television, which coincides with the extreme efforts to concentrate the media more and more with corporate power.

It has become a more civilized county in the past 50 years thanks to anti-war, civil rights, feminine rights, environmental rights, labor rights, and other popular movements in the 30's and 60's. For instance, when JFK publicly announced in March 1962 that the US has begun bombing South Vietnam, he did so with total impunity (major protest did not begin until 66-67 when the media finally turned against it). No President since the eighties could conceivably do this with such crass. Before the Iraq War II was officially announced, for instance, there was a very sizeable public opposition not only in the US but across the World. That's a good situation. Now, the US and the West in general is in a period of neoliberal recession where the socialization of capital and the privatization of corporate profit have run amuk thanks to policies like NAFTA and European political subservience to US interests.

The public is generally aware of this and I'm sure if there's a poll asking the populace if you think the government works for the people or for elites, the latter would receive the bulk of the votes (whereas in places like Venezuela, Uruguay, and Argentina, it's the opposite).

I can sum it up just fine in four words:

Great country, terrible goverment.

Pretty much.

Sorry Americans, but saying 'I love my country but not my government' is not good enough, not when you pride yourself on you're democratic institutions so greatly. The American people are responsible for their current government because they elected it, through their apathy, ignorance and indifference to public affairs they opened the door for the GOP, laid out the mat, and welcomed them inside for a cup of tea.


How am I responsible? I was too young to vote in both the 2000 and 2004 election. And even if I could have voted, I certainly wouldn't have voted for Bush.

Every single American is responsible for us having a bad government? That's just ridiculous.

Pretty much.I disagree. My biggest problem with the US isn't the government, or even the fucked up political system in general. It's the culture that allows it I can't stand.

I have a highly positive view of the United States and its culture. Government, not so much (although there are exceptions like Ben Bernanke and Henry Paulson), but the government is hardly the eternal face of our country so it's not as important as the other aspects of America.

What's wrong with the south?

Just about... everything.

Any american that dislikes their government is not patriotic and bordering on sedition and petty treason! And all you europeans that dislike america and her politics, fuck you!:upyours:

Oh wow, I've seen the light. This post makes me love America and all its dealings with the world...:rolleyes:

The U.S. is like any other Country I've visited or met people from (sadly not as many as I'd like:(). The people are generally ok, although many are more insular than most Europeans (although maybe not the British...) and their politics is whacked (from my perspective) but the Country as a whole, no better or worse than most others to be honest.

I view America from about 5000km away, and that means that my view is somewhat blurred. It means that the majority of my daily experience of America is made up of news items, with the balance coming from commentary from Americans on this and other message boards. I have to say, if these were the only sources I had, I'd take a pretty dim view.

Someone on here has a sig that quotes something along the lines of being able to disagree with everything that GWB does without hating him. That's pretty close to how I feel about The USA. I don't like its foreign policy, I dislike its National Security Strategy with its stated goal of attaining and retaining overwhelming military superiority over everyone else and tolerating no rival ('though it certainly makes strategic sense). I dislike much of its generally materialistically-driven culture and the influence that corporate interests have in its political systems. There are many more things that bug me about the USA, but you get the idea. Despite all of this, I don't hate America.

Furthermore, and this is a distinction that some people seem to be unable to grasp, I do not hate the American people. I do loathe idiots, and America certainly has its share, but there are idiots of every nationality. It's just that the USA is more populous than the rest of the West and therefore her idiots get their voices heard more often, and this inevitably paints the nation in a bad light.

In short?
The most influential country on the planet, and therefore the most dangerous.
Nice scenery in parts, but not a place I'd want to live.

The government is made of great fail. Other than that, I imagine it's not vastly different from anywhere else.

Any american that dislikes their government is not patriotic and bordering on sedition and petty treason! And all you europeans that dislike america and her politics, fuck you!:upyours:

It's gungho fuckwits like yourself, and the fuckwits you in turn elect, that give America a bad name.

I do think an undercurrent of anti-americanism is endemic in Europe, however, I personally don't mind the USA. Every time I've been there the people have been welcoming and polite, and frankly, the UK is every bit as shite on a political level as the USA.

I view America from about 5000km away, and that means that my view is somewhat blurred. It means that the majority of my daily experience of America is made up of news items, with the balance coming from commentary from Americans on this and other message boards. I have to say, if these were the only sources I had, I'd take a pretty dim view.

I cant say I blame you, all I can say is that I for one, am glad that not everyone has a rabid opinion of us.


Someone on here has a sig that quotes something along the lines of being able to disagree with everything that GWB does without hating him. That's pretty close to how I feel about The USA. I don't like its foreign policy, I dislike its National Security Strategy with its stated goal of attaining and retaining overwhelming military superiority over everyone else and tolerating no rival ('though it certainly makes strategic sense). I dislike much of its generally materialistically-driven culture and the influence that corporate interests have in its political systems. There are many more things that bug me about the USA, but you get the idea. Despite all of this, I don't hate America.

Not all Americans enjoy our materialistic surroundings either.
Recently, as two full weeks ago, the local radio stations have ALREADY started playing Christmas music. The corporations seem to push the shopping season ahead by a whole month.


Furthermore, and this is a distinction that some people seem to be unable to grasp, I do not hate the American people. I do loathe idiots, and America certainly has its share, but there are idiots of every nationality. It's just that the USA is more populous than the rest of the West and therefore her idiots get their voices heard more often, and this inevitably paints the nation in a bad light.

Theres a strong trend in this country to let the media do our thinking for us, whether its Bill O Reilly, or Chris Matthews.
Its how guys like Bush get elected to a second term.
Its as if those of us who still do our own thinking, are accused of being "Liberals" or "Socialists", or "unpatriotic".

Sadly, as you point out, "The loudest idiot, is always the one who gets heard."

How do you view America?From a distance. And it doesn't look good.

Its foreign politics are...ugly and its methods of securing national security I find morally reprehensible. That's about my only gripe; as with pretty much any developed nation you'll get a mix of good and bad people and as always it's unfair to paint them all, etc.

Not having actually been to the country I've only spoken to Americans through BBS's like this, so I fell it's unfair to draw any definite conclusion from these experiences. That said, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, in most situations, considering how much criticism they receive.
Oh, and thanks Julianus for posting up the link. It seems quite interesting.

I just finished reading an interesting article about anti-americanism in Europe. It said that anti-americanism, bordering on racism, is pretty wide spread. This view holds Americans in complete contempt. I know we have had several threads about how bad the US really is. So, I was wondering, Europeans: what is your view on America?

We don't hate America, nor Americans, although there are certainly cultural differences between us. Don't get anti war or anti Bush sentiments mixed up with anti American.

I can sum up The USA by simply describing what it emulates.

The Roman Empire.

Remember what happened to that?

What's wrong with the south?

The southern states think they have the exclusive rights to the word y'all.

The southern states think they have the exclusive rights to the word y'all.

They can have it. It just sounds so wrong.

I can sum up The USA by simply describing what it emulates.

The Roman Empire.

Remember what happened to that?

Yeah, it reigned for an odd 700 years or so before half of it fell. The other half existed for another thousand years. ;)

Yeah, it reigned for an odd 700 years or so before half of it fell. The other half existed for another thousand years. ;)

And then it was wiped out by European and Asian barbarians. :eek:

Excluding outstanding issues pertaining to the quality of mass-market beer and the quality of our federal government it's a pretty nice place. Depending on where you are the people are totally different, as are their attitudes and tastes.

Yeah, it reigned for an odd 700 years or so before half of it fell. The other half existed for another thousand years. ;)

Don't forget that a final arm of the Roman state still exists, and maintains a substantial level of spiritual power over something like a billion people.

Just about... everything.

But the food is soooooooooooo good.

I can sum up The USA by simply describing what it emulates.

The Roman Empire.

Remember what happened to that?

The Roman Empire was never that decadent.

And then it was wiped out by European and Asian barbarians. :eek:

Technically the Eastern Roman Empire continued its existence under another name (Ottoman Empire) by absorbing the barbarians… :)

But the food is soooooooooooo good.

Is it?

Are you saying it is with respect to availability or with respect to specific “American” dishes?

Why I love America: I live in a small collegetown called Ithaca in central New York. I was born and raised here. Its a beautiful town that lies at the base of one of NYs Finger lakes, it has flourishing vineyards and beautiful gorges and State parks. In the summer it has the climate of Hawaii. The entire community and economy is based on its two colleges Ivy League Cornell University and Ithaca College. The diversity of our town is amazing. Cornell imports the finest minds of all cultures from all over the world. Yet we are located in the middle of an agricultural belt in the middle of nowhere. When you sit down at the barber, the guy on your left is a redneck farmer and the guy on your right is a Nobel Lauriate. I live in a town where dispite many cultures, i never ever lock the door to my home, nor do i ever lock my car. I get to live right next to a Bird Sanctuary. Wild turkeys flock across my backyard, Deer eat out of my birdfeeder. Yet im a four hour drive to Manhattan. To me this is the beauty of America.

They can have it. It just sounds so wrong.

:(

I actually like the word y'all. Maybe it's because I used to work at Wal-Mart for almost 4 1/2 years, though.

:(

I actually like the word y'all. Maybe it's because I used to work at Wal-Mart for almost 4 1/2 years, though.

It sounds wrong to me because, outside of television, I'd never heard anyone actually say it before I went to basic training.

Is it?

Are you saying it is with respect to availability or with respect to specific “American” dishes?

With respect to food in general.

Jambalaya with Andouille sausages, Carolina Barbecue, biscuits (aka mana from heaven), Macaroni and Cheese, greens, Gumbo, Hoppin' John, Red Beans and Rice, Fried Chicken (the southern way!), Hush puppies, spoon bread, corn pone, peanut butter...the list goes on and on and on. The American south is a culinary delight!

The Roman Empire was never that decadent.

Oh, but for the ruling classes it was. We've just made our decadence egalitarian.

"I loathe america, and what it has done to the rest of the world"

- Margaret Drabble (British author)

I view America from the safety of Canada.

And that's where I take difference, the American people could easily change their corrupted system if they wished, but they do not. Maybe if America was run by a total dictatorship without elections then I would concede the problem is the government and not the people, but as limited as US democracy is - it's not so low that it cannot be changed, all that is missing is the popular will to do so. America is a reflection of the people, including the government, trying to hide from it or switch blame does not diminish this fact, and it will only be when the American people themselves rise up and stop being manipulated that this corrupt culture will end.
It's easy enough to say that, actually doing it is a bit more difficult since we have limited options as to who to vote for, there is also the matter of individuals can have vastly different ideas about what is good for the country.

Any american that dislikes their government is not patriotic and bordering on sedition and petty treason! And all you europeans that dislike america and her politics, fuck you!:upyours:

And this would be a good example of what makes Americans disliked

Most dangerous country on the globe and proud of it.
Prone to imperialism and state terrorism and proud of it.
Environmentally careless and proud of it.
Educationally backward and proud of it.
Etc. (and proud of it)

"I loathe america, and what it has done to the rest of the world"

- Margaret Drabble (British author)

That article is nothing but trite polemics, and anyone with half a brain should know that.

No-one believes all americans are bad, or that an entire nation is inherently bad, what people believe is that americans are unhealthy, uncultured, and lead by an idiot(who you voted back in). When I say uncultured, I refer to the racism in the south, or the fact that most americans never leave the country, so understand very little about how the world works. I'm sure part of america are nice, just like any country, but it is responsible for most of the worlds problems (see polution, third world poverty, war). This isnt racism, this is fact.

...but it is responsible for most of the worlds problems (see polution, third world poverty, war). This isnt racism, this is fact.
How is America responsible for 3rd world poverty?

And other than the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq how is America responsible for war? we certainly didn't invent it.

And to your 3rd example pollution, we're not the only country that is polluting or for that matter we're not the worst

How is the US responsible for all pollution, third world poverty, or war?

ETA: Damn, Dyakovo beat me to it. :(

Ha!

No-one believes all americans are bad, or that an entire nation is inherently bad, what people believe is that americans are unhealthy, uncultured, and lead by an idiot(who you voted back in). When I say uncultured, I refer to the racism in the south, or the fact that most americans never leave the country, so understand very little about how the world works. I'm sure part of america are nice, just like any country, but it is responsible for most of the worlds problems (see polution, third world poverty, war). This isnt racism, this is fact.

How is the US responsible for all pollution, third world poverty, or war?

ETA: Damn, Dyakovo beat me to it. :(

How is America responsible for 3rd world poverty?

And other than the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq how is America responsible for war? we certainly didn't invent it.

And to your 3rd example pollution, we're not the only country that is polluting or for that matter we're not the worst

1 - It isn't directly but through outsourcing it has helped foster conditions that contribute to labour issues in foreign nations along with other developed nations whose companies are exploiting the third world economy by paying substandard wages. This allows the upper few to benefit off the back breaking labour of many.

2 - Even if America didn't invent it, a good number the wars in the 20th century were American led and were started with American intervention, ie: Vietnam War is one.

3 - There are plenty of nations that pollute but America won't show any progress on that front and remains one of two or three rogue nations that refused to ratify the Kyoto Accord. America is on par with China and India when it comes to pollution when it could work with other developed nations towards more green options and lead by example.

No-one believes all americans are bad, or that an entire nation is inherently bad, what people believe is that americans are unhealthy, uncultured, and lead by an idiot(who you voted back in). When I say uncultured, I refer to the racism in the south, or the fact that most americans never leave the country, so understand very little about how the world works. I'm sure part of america are nice, just like any country, but it is responsible for most of the worlds problems (see polution, third world poverty, war). This isnt racism, this is fact.

Third world poverty and its resultants are primarily the responsibility of the poor governance policies of the members of the postcolonial non-aligned movement. Closely related to this fact are issues of war and pollution, and while there is plenty of blame to be focused on the United States for misadventures in the middle east, and consuming more energy resources (in more environmentally inefficient means) than it should, the problems are neither the sole responsibility of the United States, nor is the solution solely concentrated in the US.

..., but it is responsible for most of the worlds problems (see polution, third world poverty, war). This isnt racism, this is fact.

The US isn't as widely loved as they'd like to because they act like all wars and poverty are their problems to deal with:mp5:. They think (generalisation, I know, I mean most of the governement) they should act as a 'world police'. Where they could take some more responsebility for the environment (as the worlds biggest polutor).:headbang:
So to summarize: good intentions, but bad results...:rolleyes:

1 - It isn't directly but through outsourcing it has helped foster conditions that contribute to labour issues in foreign nations along with other developed nations whose companies are exploiting the third world economy by paying substandard wages.
I guess I can see where you're coming from on this one, although I fail to see how America is responsible for actions of entities outside of its control

2 - Even if America didn't invent it, a good number the wars in the 20th century were American led and were started with American intervention, ie: Vietnam War is one.
But most have not been WW1, WW2, any one of the huge numbers of wars fought in Africa. And also the Vietnam war was not started through American intervention, it started as a communist based revolt against the French

3 - There are plenty of nations that pollute but America won't show any progress on that front and remains one of two or three rogue nations that refused to ratify the Kyoto Accord. America is on par with China and India when it comes to pollution when it could work with other developed nations towards more green options and lead by example.
The only argument I have with that is the Kyoto Accord is a band-aid on a gaping wound, the actual benefits of the Accord would be minimal. That being said, I personally feel that we should have signed it because while in it self it would have done little, it at least would have been a start

The US isn't as widely loved as they'd like to because they act like all wars and poverty are their problems to deal with:mp5:. They think (generalisation, I know, I mean most of the governement) they should act as a 'world police'. Where they could take some more responsebility for the environment (as the worlds biggest polutor).:headbang:
So to summarize: good intentions, but bad results...:rolleyes:

From what I can see Kryozerkia's complaint is that we're not managing to be "World Police"

I guess I can see where you're coming from on this one, although I fail to see how America is responsible for actions of entities outside of its control

That's why I said "and other developed countries". America should penalise companies that are America for 'unAmerican' like activites that exploit workers. The same should go for other nations and their companies. After all, these companies are exploiting poor labour laws for pure profit when they could be showing the way to escape poverty through fair wages. Through this, capitalism and American policies start to look more favourable.

But most have not been WW1, WW2, any one of the huge numbers of wars fought in Africa. And also the Vietnam war was not started through American intervention, it started as a communist based revolt against the French

And the French bailed because they didn't need another war. It could have been stopped at that but instead, after years of working behind the scenes the US stepped in and turned it from a revolt into a war. The problem is that this was originally a conflict between the French and the Vietnamese yet the US made it their own when it never ways theirs in the first place. Intervention that made a mountain out of a mole hole. :)

The only argument I have with that is the Kyoto Accord is a band-aid on a gaping wound, the actual benefits of the Accord would be minimal. That being said, I personally feel that we should have signed it because while in it self it would have done little, it at least would have been a start

Even if it's a short term solution, America signing it would have made a difference because then you've got the more powerful nations united in a fight for the world's wellbeing instead of divided over it. Kyoto was just a start. But you cannot build a house without a foundation.

From what I can see Kryozerkia's complaint is that we're not managing to be "World Police"

Actually, it's that America is trying to be but instead it keeps messing up so we're reaching the point where we see it as meddlesome instead of beneficial to the world. :)

Wow, america really isn't getting enough credit in this thread. What about the fact that america was the first true democracy since ancient times? What about all the great things invented by americans? What about all the american movies you watch and food you eat? Yes, our country has flaws, but blaming it for ruining the world is a bit extreme.

That's why I said "and other developed countries". America should penalise companies that are America for 'unAmerican' like activites that exploit workers. The same should go for other nations and their companies. After all, these companies are exploiting poor labour laws for pure profit when they could be showing the way to escape poverty through fair wages. Through this, capitalism and American policies start to look more favourable.
No argument



And the French bailed because they didn't need another war. It could have been stopped at that but instead, after years of working behind the scenes the US stepped in and turned it from a revolt into a war. The problem is that this was originally a conflict between the French and the Vietnamese yet the US made it their own when it never ways theirs in the first place. Intervention that made a mountain out of a mole hole. :)True but there was a great deal of paranoia at the time (not just American either) about the expansion of communism and Soviet control so I understand why we got involved (don't agree with it, but understand it)



Even if it's a short term solution, America signing it would have made a difference because then you've got the more powerful nations united in a fight for the world's wellbeing instead of divided over it. Kyoto was just a start. But you cannot build a house without a foundation.
which is pretty much what I said

Wow, america really isn't getting enough credit in this thread. What about the fact that america was the first true democracy since ancient times? What about all the great things invented by americans? What about all the american movies you watch and food you eat? Yes, our country has flaws, but blaming it for ruining the world is a bit extreme.

America isn't a democracy it is a republic.

[QUOTE=Kryozerkia;13215500]1 - It isn't directly but through outsourcing it has helped foster conditions that contribute to labour issues in foreign nations along with other developed nations whose companies are exploiting the third world economy by paying substandard wages. This allows the upper few to benefit off the back breaking labour of many.

Labor issues? While in the West these jobs would be seen as abusive, they are actually pretty good jobs by comparison elsewhere. It seems obvious to me that if these jobs were that bad, then the "abused" employees would merely find jobs elsewhere. So, it seems that these jobs are the best that these workers have to hope for and fighting to close down these jobs or improve conditions would actually cause workers to lose jobs and/or take a cut in wages:headbang:

America isn't a democracy it is a republic.That's a technicality. The point is, america inspired many other countries to abandon monarchy.

To my mind, america is one of the worst countries in the world. There are many, many, many, many, ... problems, p.e.:
- pollution
- religious fanatism
- capitalism
- cruelty done to animals
- the only important things for most of the americans are a good look, family and money, money, money... capitalism.

I could write long argumentation about america, but English isn't my native language and I only learn it at school.

That's a technicality.

Actually its semantics

Many of you seem to have forgotten the fact that if it were not for American warfare intervention western Europe would be Nazi Germany today. The Americans did some serious ass-saving in WWII.

To my mind, america is one of the worst countries in the world. There are many, many, many, many, ... problems, p.e.:
- pollution
As stated before we're not the only ones that pollute

- religious fanatism
Not all Americans are religious fanatics
- capitalism

What exactly is your problem with capitalism?
- cruelty done to animals

Not all Americans are cruel to animals, not even most
- the only important things for most of the americans are a good look, family and money, money, money... capitalism.
how is family being important a bad thing, and as far as the looks thing that is just ridiculous, and again what exactly is your problem with capitalism?

Many of you seem to have forgotten the fact that if it were not for American warfare intervention western Europe would be Nazi Germany today. The Americans did some serious ass-saving in WWII.

The Third Reich would probably have failed without American intervention, the war just would have lasted longer

That article is nothing but trite polemics, and anyone with half a brain should know that.

I only used that quote, not the entire article, it pretty much sums up my personal feelings quite well though, and I have travelled in the states. I met some good individuals, but the overall culture left my heart cold and dead.

I don't really understand why any european would have problems with the iraq war. Anti war americans don't care about preventing a civil war in iraq, they only care about saving the lives of american soldiers and not wasting billions. From a non american point of veiw, the war should be a good thing. A dangerous dictator who hates western nations was overthrown and all most of europe had to do was sit there and complain about it.

Kinda random, but "ya'll" (or "y'all") came about because in the English language in general there is a gap for what would be called a "second person plural pronoun." In most other major languages there is a specific word that cover that hole, but in English the only second person pronoun there is is "you." To express plurality the phrase "you all" was used, and it eventually got shortened to "y'all." There are other regional words that are less popular: "youes" for instance. So why it may sound silly to some, grammatically it fills a unique role that otherwise isn't covered.

As to America in general, I ain't gonna comment, because I'm one of those evangelical Christians, conservative/libertarian southerners (from the Commonwealth of Virginia), that ya'll seem to hate some much, and I don't particularly feel like getting into a flame war with sectionalist yankees and Europeans.

If America leaves Iraq and turns it's eyes back to Afghanistan. If America's priorities were on health care, Education, insfracture, and poverty reduction instead of war, war, illegal immigrants, and oh yeah, WAR, then I'd describe America as a swell country. So based on America's current status, I would give it a C- and I guess Bush finds that decent enough.

Labor issues? While in the West these jobs would be seen as abusive, they are actually pretty good jobs by comparison elsewhere. It seems obvious to me that if these jobs were that bad, then the "abused" employees would merely find jobs elsewhere. So, it seems that these jobs are the best that these workers have to hope for and fighting to close down these jobs or improve conditions would actually cause workers to lose jobs and/or take a cut in wages:headbang:

You assume that getting another job in under-developed and developing nations is as easy as it is in the developed nations. You're forgetting that often in these nations economic conditions prevent the people from being able to switch jobs due to an overall lack of security and no social net to help them. Some people can switch but there are more who can't because they need money to survive and often it's costlier to switch than to not even if the conditions are deplorable.

When people aren't given the same protections in the laws that those of us in the west often take for granted, these people are effectively stuck between a rock and a hard place with limited options.


Many of you seem to have forgotten the fact that if it were not for American warfare intervention western Europe would be Nazi Germany today. The Americans did some serious ass-saving in WWII.

This is assuming the Nazis quickly learned that fighting on two fronts would cost them. Given what they had taken over versus their numbers, they would have run into difficulties down the line because the resistance would have eventually been great enough to drive back the Germans. The cost in human lives would have been greater but there were plenty of nations other than the US who were aiding the effort.

I only used that quote, not the entire article, it pretty much sums up my personal feelings quite well though, and I have travelled in the states. I met some good individuals, but the overall culture left my heart cold and dead.
An argument that I have absolutely no problem with - "I've been there and just don't like it."
:)

An argument that I have absolutely no problem with - "I've been there and just don't like it."
:)That's not a good argument... america has a lot of variety, most states have a unique culture. If you visited a part you don't like it means nothing. It would be like if I went to finland, and decided that all of europe sucks.

I don't really understand why any european would have problems with the iraq war. Anti war americans don't care about preventing a civil war in iraq, they only care about saving the lives of american soldiers and not wasting billions. From a non american point of veiw, the war should be a good thing. A dangerous dictator who hates western nations was overthrown and all most of europe had to do was sit there and complain about it.

other than to his own people how was Saddam Hussein dangerous?

Also if it wasn't for the American invasion of Iraq and overthroing Saddam Hussein there would be no threat of civil war in Iraq

That's not a good argument... america has a lot of variety, most states have a unique culture. If you visited a part you don't like it means nothing. It would be like if I went to finland, and decided that all of europe sucks.

That's comparing apples and oranges each of the states is part of a single country where as Finland is not part of a greater country called Europe.

If he had said he'd been to Canada and thusly didn't like the U.S. then your comparison would be valid

other than to his own people how was Saddam Hussein dangerous?

Also if it wasn't for the American invasion of Iraq and overthroing Saddam Hussein there would be no threat of civil war in IraqRemember the gulf war? Saddam hated us and he was always threatening to attack. Maybe those where empty threats, but nobody considered them empty at the time. (Even though they do now that the threat is gone.)

Iraq is made of 3 countries that never wanted to be together. They where forced together by the ottoman empire. They always hated each other and always tried to kill each other. I don't see why people are trying to force them to be 1 country, it makes no sense.

Anyway, the point is, americans are dying and iraqis are dying. Most europeans aren't involved. Why should europe be angry about it?

The Third Reich would probably have failed without American intervention, the war just would have lasted longer

The single most important element of American intervention in the European theater before 1944 was the provision of war material to the UK and USSR, so much so that without that war material, it is likely that both countries would have foundered. Marshall Zhukov, for instance, wrote in his book that without US aid the USSR would have gone under in 1942.

Remember the gulf war? Saddam hated us and he was always threatening to attack. Maybe those where empty threats, but nobody considered them empty at the time. (Even though they do now that the threat is gone.)

What exactly are you talking about?

And to your 3rd example pollution, we're not the only country that is polluting or for that matter we're not the worst
You're not the only, but you are the worst. You consume the most resources, and have the least progressive environmental policies, and I'm pretty sure (although I don't know if it could be proven) that you pump the most pollution into the atmosphere of any country.
Many of you seem to have forgotten the fact that if it were not for American warfare intervention western Europe would be Nazi Germany today. The Americans did some serious ass-saving in WWII.
That is just plain nonsense. Plus to say that the world owes your country for retaliating to pearl harbor (don't forget that you didn't join the war to fight Nazis, but to fight the Japanese) is pure ignorance.

I stand by my point about being responsible for 3rd word poverty. By abusing cheap foreign labor and not canceling debts to the 3rd world(something Britain is guilty of as well). The point is that a country so rich is only rich due to the exploitation of other countries, if the wealth was more fairly distributed, there wouldn't need to be any poverty.

Wow, america really isn't getting enough credit in this thread. What about the fact that america was the first true democracy since ancient times? What about all the great things invented by americans? What about all the american movies you watch and food you eat? Yes, our country has flaws, but blaming it for ruining the world is a bit extreme.
I am by no means saying America has given the world nothing good, but I think you are deluding yourselves if you think it has done more for the world than any other country. It is strange to me that you chose food and music as two things your country is good at, I think that is the opposite opinion to a lot, me included. Things you are good at include computing (although you didn't invent computers, your country has had a lot to do with the way they are now) and music (but no more so than any other country)

A point i forgot about, torture and Guantanamo bay.
I think that most Europeans believe that America was a once good democracy that has lost its way in an epic way, I'm not sure if this is necessarily true, I think there is an image of old America that is a gross exaggeration.

You're not the only, but you are the worst. You consume the most resources, and have the least progressive environmental policies, and I'm pretty sure (although I don't know if it could be proven) that you pump the most pollution into the atmosphere of any country.
I can't currently find the statistics, but if I remember correctly the worst offender is China. Not saying that America shouldn't do a lot more towards reducing pollution.

That is just plain nonsense. Plus to say that the world owes your country for retaliating to pearl harbor (don't forget that you didn't join the war to fight Nazis, but to fight the Japanese) is pure ignorance.
The world doesn't owe America. And if you had any knowledge of history, you would realize that before America joined the war, a lot of aid (weapons, ammo, etc) was provided to the Allies.

I stand by my point about being responsible for 3rd word poverty. By abusing cheap foreign labor and not canceling debts to the 3rd world(something Britain is guilty of as well). The point is that a country so rich is only rich due to the exploitation of other countries, if the wealth was more fairly distributed, there wouldn't need to be any poverty.
America doesn't abuse cheap foreign labor, American Corporations might, but the country is not responsible for actions of individual entities outside its borders. Why should America cancel debts owed to them? If I was to borrow from you, should I be able to just decide that paying you back is too difficult?
And actually as far as cancelling debts is concerned Brazil several years ago declared that they didn't owe any money to anybody and America turned around and immediately loaned them more

Many of you seem to have forgotten the fact that if it were not for American warfare intervention western Europe would be Nazi Germany today. The Americans did some serious ass-saving in WWII.

Actually, the Russians did a hell of a lot more ass-savng in WW II.
But don't worry, I've met many Americans here on the forum who weren't aware of that.

epic fail: Under the Iraq War (got there by accident), it claims that Denmark had a center-left coalition.

While Denmark is certainly generally left-leaning, you have to take into account the country. And in Denmark, the centre-left of the US is the centre-right.

And was heavily opposed by the population too.

The single most important element of American intervention in the European theater before 1944 was the provision of war material to the UK and USSR, so much so that without that war material, it is likely that both countries would have foundered. Marshall Zhukov, for instance, wrote in his book that without US aid the USSR would have gone under in 1942.

Yes, and if I recall correctly the UK finally could stop paying back the intersts n those debts, what, 5 years ago?

Its habit really, most European countries (save for Russia and maybe France) can fit easily inside the state of Texas, sometimes more than once. This abundance of space had inevitably led to the fact that Americans seem overly loud and very poor drivers in smaller countries. We are just used to having more space between us and the next guy. (i.e. In America it considered rude and an invasion of personal space to just walk up to someones table in a resteraunt and sit down; while in Germany or the Netherlands, you can just walk up and sit down and no one will say a thing.) I guess that is a poor example, but it is the only one I can think of.

Meh, In new jersey theres no space to drive and the drivers are even worse than in other states save maybe for New York city (no offense to any new yorkers here).

How i see it is like this:

America is like a big lumbering ignoramus with behavioral probelms who is trying his hardest to help but just ends up breaking everything while people take the piss, this of course enrages him and he often gets called into the headmasters office for fighting in the playground.

Britain is the weedy nerd who tries to be his friend because America can protect him from bigger kids.

France is someone who keeps trying to be friends with America but constantly wonders why he should bother because he just gets called a looser by everyone else.

Germany used to be a bully because hes got massive forearms, but America took him down a peg or two when Germany tried to steal the hood off his jacket during lunch break, now Germany's just in the library studying all the time with Japan and Norway.

Italy's a pretty boy who's very popular with the "laydeez" but much prefers to run away when trouble starts.

I could go on like this all day but i won't...

America is like a big lumbering ignoramus with behavioral probelms who is trying his hardest to help but just ends up breaking everything while people take the piss, this of course enrages him and he often gets called into the headmasters office for fighting in the playground.
It's like lenny from Of MIce and MEn!!!

Funny that a bunch of American posts are viewing the South through a similar lens Europeans use to view America.

Not really. It's typical of humanity to do that sort of thing. I myself find it hard to not prejudge Southerners since my relatives down there are all a bunch of redneck fuckheads(though I'd never say so to my mom, who would have a heart attack) and as a result I've come to associate the Southern American accent with stupidity. I hear that accent and immediately my opinion of their intelligence starts dropping like a stone.

It's like lenny from Of MIce and MEn!!!

lol

I hadn't thought of that.

Not really. It's typical of humanity to do that sort of thing. I myself find it hard to not prejudge Southerners since my relatives down there are all a bunch of redneck fuckheads(though I'd never say so to my mom, who would have a heart attack) and as a result I've come to associate the Southern American accent with stupidity. I hear that accent and immediately my opinion of their intelligence starts dropping like a stone.

Why do you think that of them?

Through Google Earth, normally.

Why do you think that of them?

As I said, it's due to my southern relatives. My mom is the youngest of six children(and she's fifty) and they've all had lots of children of their own, who have had some children of their own and so on and so forth. Thing is, every single one of them is ignorant, mildly racist, most definitely homophobic, refuses to accept me for being an atheist, and so on and so forth. Plus, the accent is atrocious. It just SCREAMS "I'm really stupid!"

I am by no means saying America has given the world nothing good, but I think you are deluding yourselves if you think it has done more for the world than any other country. It is strange to me that you chose food and music as two things your country is good at, I think that is the opposite opinion to a lot, me included. Things you are good at include computing (although you didn't invent computers, your country has had a lot to do with the way they are now) and music (but no more so than any other country)When did I say america has done more good for the world than any other country? And I never said america has good food, I said that the rest of the world eats our food. I'm assuming that they enjoy it, since they eat so much of it.

Even though I'm american, I avoid unhealthy american food. I don't go to mcdonalds and I rarely drink soda. But I see american soda machines everywhere, including europe.

As I said, it's due to my southern relatives. My mom is the youngest of six children(and she's fifty) and they've all had lots of children of their own, who have had some children of their own and so on and so forth. Thing is, every single one of them is ignorant, mildly racist, most definitely homophobic, refuses to accept me for being an atheist, and so on and so forth. Plus, the accent is atrocious. It just SCREAMS "I'm really stupid!"

So, in other words, you think they're stupid because you disagree with them on issues of politics and religion? Also: define ignorant.

When did I say america has done more good for the world than any other country? And I never said america has good food, I said that the rest of the world eats our food. I'm assuming that they enjoy it, since they eat so much of it.

Actually, everyone eats everyone's food. That's the way the world is today...there's huge amounts of importing and exporting everywhere. Pretty much everyone relies on everyone else for some crucial part of their diet.

So, in other words, you think they're stupid because you disagree with them on issues of politics and religion? Also: define ignorant.
I think they're stupid because they are stupid and not willing to learn to be more tolerant. I tried it many times.

But what I really meant was this tendency to not think as highly of someone's intelligence if they have a Southern accent. It's an unconscious thing that I have no control over and I know it's stupid, since most definitely not all Southerners are like my relatives. Take Dempublicents for instance. Although we disagree on a few things, she's a very intelligent woman.

As for ignorant, what do you think it means? It means "not being aware/educated/understanding something due to lack of knowledge."

Actually, everyone eats everyone's food. That's the way the world is today...there's huge amounts of importing and exporting everywhere. Pretty much everyone relies on everyone else for some crucial part of their diet.That's true, but I think america has more popular chain restaurants. Like starbucks and stuff.

Again, this doesn't mean starbucks is better than everyone else. But it means that it doesn't make sense for people to claim they hate america, and continue eating at our franchises. If they like the coffee maybe they shouldn't be so hateful.

I think they're stupid because they are stupid and not willing to learn to be more tolerant. I tried it many times.

But what I really meant was this tendency to not think as highly of someone's intelligence if they have a Southern accent. It's an unconscious thing that I have no control over and I know it's stupid, since most definitely not all Southerners are like my relatives. Take Dempublicents for instance. Although we disagree on a few things, she's a very intelligent woman.

As for ignorant, what do you think it means? It means "not being aware/educated/understanding something due to lack of knowledge."

Saying someone is stupid because they are stupid is circular logic, it does not answer the question.

Let me clarify: I want examples of what you're talking about, not generalizations. Saying someone is stupid and intolerant means nothing, its just your opinion. In other words: I want evidence of your claims.

What they need in the US is a revolution. Preferably Democratic socialist's. ;)

I love America, but I think it's a very different America from the one envisioned by many others who claim to love America.

Why do you think that of them?

Many Northerners have that particular prejudice. When I joined the Army it took a bit of effort to not allow myself to think that, as I'd never been around Southerners before. I'm guessing that Southern characters on TV aren't portrayed as the smartest around or something. There's definitely something going on because most people I know think the Southern accent makes one sound stupid.

The southern accent is really slow and kind of slurred and drawling. In other words, it sounds drunk. It's true that the northerners are prejudiced against the south and the southerners prejudice against the north, but the southern accent would sound stupid even if that wasn't the case.

That being said, I come from the boston area, and I very much prefer the southern accent to the boston accent. The boston accent sounds so AMAZINGLY stupid.

When I was in the Army I knew a soldier from backwoods Louisiana who married a girl from Boston. I'm convinced they got along so well because neither of them could understand a single word the other was saying.

Saying someone is stupid because they are stupid is circular logic, it does not answer the question.

Let me clarify: I want examples of what you're talking about, not generalizations. Saying someone is stupid and intolerant means nothing, its just your opinion. In other words: I want evidence of your claims.

I should specify I'm speaking specifically about my relatives, mind, not all Southerners.

Well, lesse...how about my Aunt Dot's reaction when she heard some friend of some daughter of hers was marrying a black woman? She became outraged and said it just "wasn't right" and all that usual stuff.

Or how about when I told my various Aunts about my atheism? Every single one of them frowned, shook their heads, cursed my mom and dad's "poor parenting" and said I was foolishly naive.

I could go on, but I think you see my point.

I love America and frequently bang my head in frustration and despair. I watched "No End in Sight" the other night and felt like jumping up and down screaming. Where did we get all these incompetent boobs? And why are the few who aren't incompetent such dicks?

But hey, I love my home state of Texas too. Backwards ass mother fucking hardheaded sumbitches.

America is our best ally (equal with Canada and Australia). It is a great country, someday I may try and live there.

I don't generally have a problem with American's in general. I have several American friends (who I try to visit at least once a year) and every time I've been in America I've been treated well and greeted by friendly locals. You've got your fair share of loons, psychos and criminals, but it's not as though any other country can claim to be free of such.

I think though, that America really needs to step back and take a breather. As a whole it's stretching itself thin trying to police the world and while I believe intentions are good, some projects have spun wildly out of control.

Oh, and start making better movies and tv shows. It's all crap right now. :p

I don't generally have a problem with American's in general. I have several American friends (who I try to visit at least once a year) and every time I've been in America I've been treated well and greeted by friendly locals. You've got your fair share of loons, psychos and criminals, but it's not as though any other country can claim to be free of such.

I think though, that America really needs to step back and take a breather. As a whole it's stretching itself thin trying to police the world and while I believe intentions are good, some projects have spun wildly out of control.

Oh, and start making better movies and tv shows. It's all crap right now. :p
There is a better chance of American leaders stopping trying to police the world than there is of Hollywood producing better movies and TV shows

I should specify I'm speaking specifically about my relatives, mind, not all Southerners.

Well, lesse...how about my Aunt Dot's reaction when she heard some friend of some daughter of hers was marrying a black woman? She became outraged and said it just "wasn't right" and all that usual stuff.

Or how about when I told my various Aunts about my atheism? Every single one of them frowned, shook their heads, cursed my mom and dad's "poor parenting" and said I was foolishly naive.

I could go on, but I think you see my point.

On the first one, I will grant you, sounds a bit racist. Its still around in a lot of the older Southern generations, but the younger ones ain't like that at all.

The second one, on the other hand, is simply a matter of religious opinion. If they are Christian, which you are implying, to their worldview you are being "foolishly naive." In turn, because you disagree with them on this matter, you call them "stupid" and other such name calling.

So, who is more enlightened? Who is better? You admit that you hold the actions of your relatives against anyone who happened to have a Southern accent, is that not just as bigoted as your Aunt Dot's reaction to an interracial marriage?

As a southern myself, I find your opinions offensive in the extreme. You base your judgment on how people sound when they speak. Its as bad as judging people based on their skin tone or if they have dangly bits or not. It simply "safe" to be prejudiced against southerners because they happen to be white and Christian, not minority groups. Its folks like you who get called "damnyankees" because of your attitude towards southerners, in fact, most southerners don't hold anything against northerners until they start acting like self-righteous pricks, and/or assuming that they're stupid.

Its sectionalism at its worst, it hasn't died, and its one of the many things that's bad about the so-called "enlightened" liberals of the US of A.

I just finished reading an interesting article about anti-americanism in Europe. It said that anti-americanism, bordering on racism, is pretty wide spread. This view holds Americans in complete contempt. I know we have had several threads about how bad the US really is. So, I was wondering, Europeans: what is your view on America?

I've been to New York, and quite liked it. I found the people nice and friendly. But to me, they do seem rather child-like in some ways. For example, a movie poster which was everywhere at the time had the slogan "action packed action", which was obviously supposed to draw crowds. And it's impossible to find proper news, all you see is school shootings (What was the shooters favorite candy? What did he have for breakfast?) and Britney Spears drivel...Even CNN, who try to convince you they do proper news, is totally different over there and full of the same crap. I can see how a nation like that could be suckered into a war on a vaguely described, made-up ideology to be fought in random countries.
The food was better than I had expected, except you get *everything* in styrofoam containers wrapped in plastic which is then wrapped in paper and put in a plastic bag...Which I find terribly wasteful.

But of course, the main people dislike Americans is their foreign policy, which has turned them into a dangerous aggressor nation.

I just finished reading an interesting article about anti-americanism in Europe. It said that anti-americanism, bordering on racism, is pretty wide spread. This view holds Americans in complete contempt. I know we have had several threads about how bad the US really is. So, I was wondering, Europeans: what is your view on America?

As an American, it's the government who's at fault.

please tell me someone has answered "from a safe distance"

As an experiment, pretend this is typed in a southern accent. Arkansas more specifically (I hate that Texas twang. it just hits my ear and ugh... Not that, you know, I dislike Texans, just the way they talk.)
I love my country. I cannot, nor to I want to, even imagine living anywhere else. That said, I will admit it is very far from perfect. The stereotypical American (me) is loud, unrefined, violent, fat, and yes, just a little bit racist (WAIT FOR IT!). Now, what's so bad with that? It's not that dangerous, except or the violent part, and really, that's the guy that you invite to a party to keep everybody entertained. So why can't everybody enjoy? One word: Hippies.
Damn Hippies.

Its sectionalism at its worst, it hasn't died, and its one of the many things that's bad about the so-called "enlightened" liberals of the US of A.

Who said anything about "liberals"? The right wingers I hang out with are a lot worse than I ever was about it. The opinion most prevalent among them is "The South will rise again, huh? Well, we'll just have to beat that ass again!"

I can sum it up just fine in four words:

Great country, terrible goverment.

QFT

Sadly ebul. There is so much potential for America to be a great nation. Its been run into the ground so severely though.

I'll be reluctantly glad to leave here.

On the first one, I will grant you, sounds a bit racist. Its still around in a lot of the older Southern generations, but the younger ones ain't like that at all.
Eh, living here, I still see a fair amount of racism, even in a lot of younger people. While it's not often the blatant, in-your-face racism of the past, it's still there.

The second one, on the other hand, is simply a matter of religious opinion. If they are Christian, which you are implying, to their worldview you are being "foolishly naive." In turn, because you disagree with them on this matter, you call them "stupid" and other such name calling.

So, who is more enlightened? Who is better? You admit that you hold the actions of your relatives against anyone who happened to have a Southern accent, is that not just as bigoted as your Aunt Dot's reaction to an interracial marriage?

Not really. It's not the belief in God or Christianity specifically, it seems, that Kyronea is saying is stupid, but the bigotry of "atheists are inherently bad, people." Or the "interracial/gay marriage is wrong, and people who disagree are ad people." And bigots are certainly stupid, even if the bigotry has a religious source.


As a southern myself, I find your opinions offensive in the extreme. You base your judgment on how people sound when they speak. Its as bad as judging people based on their skin tone or if they have dangly bits or not. It simply "safe" to be prejudiced against southerners because they happen to be white and Christian, not minority groups. Its folks like you who get called "damnyankees" because of your attitude towards southerners, in fact, most southerners don't hold anything against northerners until they start acting like self-righteous pricks, and/or assuming that they're stupid.

Its sectionalism at its worst, it hasn't died, and its one of the many things that's bad about the so-called "enlightened" liberals of the US of A.

Eh, but again, the difference is that Kyronea at least 1) recognizes that it's really not true that southerners are inherently stupider. This is a big difference, because intellectual recognition that a reaction of yours to something isn't really right at least shows that you know that certain groups aren't automatically inferior. I doubt that somebody who would object to interracial marriage would say "well, while I do immediately have that unconscious negative reaction to interracial marriage, I realize that there's nothing wrong with it."

I mean, hell, I live in Georgia, and I do think that, as a whole, southerners seem to be more likely to bigoted (and therefore less intelligent-- in today's society, there's no excuse to not know any better like there may have been a century ago). But I don't apply that to any individual upon meeting them, I judge them on their individual merits.

I see America as hypocritical.

At one side almost everyone goes to church, but at the same time you still have the death row (forbidden by the church) and almost no social welfare. At one side you are only allowed to have nukes if you had them by 1950 or something similar, apart from when you are Israel. At one side their economy is extremely competitive, but somehow it is cheaper to call to Israel than to Canada, which is on the border.

I'm also against the extreme amount of competition, causing a huge income disparity, people sueing for rediculous things like putting a cat in a microwave, but also having to theat to sue an insurance company to get them to confirm to the law.

It's going in the wrong direction and needs to be set back on track by ... a third party.

That'd be me :D

It's going in the wrong direction and needs to be set back on track by Obama, Edwards, Paul or a third party.

I have no opinion on "the US."

I have trouble understanding how anyone could.

How i see it is like this:
Britain is the weedy nerd who tries to be his friend because America can protect him from bigger kids.


This is what annoys me most about the "special relationship" the UK and the US are meant to have. In all truth, what has the United Kingdom ever gained from our one time colony?

We are treated as nothing more than a convenient military base for our "special friend" to attack people who we have no argument with. We are forced along on moronic, badly planned, military escapades which turn the world against us and do not benefit the nation in any way, except having our sons shot in the back by our so-called allies in "friendly" fire.

When we need help and had to go to the (American run) IMF we were arm twisted into selling out our nations most vital assets for a fraction of their worth. I'm only surprised we weren't made to pawn off the Crown Jewels.

And to put add insult to injury we were arm twisted into giving up our own (genuine) nuclear defences for the "independent" nuclear deterrent, which couldn't be less independent if we handed over the keys for it to Bush in person.

Our culture and history is being washed away by a sea of moronic "infotainment" whilst ignorance, shallowness and consumerism are the Divine Triad of our "shared values".

I do not share them.

The United Kingdom is not the 51st state, yet. And I hope and pray we never, ever become so.

It's going in the wrong direction and needs to be set back on track by Obama, Edwards, Paul or a third party.

I agree with you that it's going in the wrong direction, but the only person who can right those wrongs is Mitt Romney. Somehow, I think that under Guiliani, we'll be just as bad as under Bush. Obama, Edwards, and Paul are mediocre at best. They can do a better job than Bush, but that's not saying much.

This is what annoys me most about the "special relationship" the UK and the US are meant to have. In all truth, what has the United Kingdom ever gained from our one time colony?

We kinda saved you from Nazi Germany. But apart from saving your asses, yeah, the US is a blood sucking parasite dedicated to dragging Britain through a cess pool. Yeah. Of course.

We are treated as nothing more than a convenient military base for our "special friend" to attack people who we have no argument with. We are forced long on moronic, badly planned military escapades which turn the world against us and do not benefit the nation in any way, except having our sons shot in the back by their so-called allies in "friendly" fire.

And British soldiers have never accidentally shot anyone

I didn't read the first post before voting. I didn't know it was aimed at Europeans before I called it the worst country ever.

Oh well. I'm sure the ones who picked the first option were Americans, too.

I agree with you that it's going in the wrong direction, but the only person who can right those wrongs is Mitt Romney. Somehow, I think that under Guiliani, we'll be just as bad as under Bush. Obama, Edwards, and Paul are mediocre at best. They can do a better job than Bush, but that's not saying much.

Romney? Pah, in what way would he be a major change from Shrubya? Romney is anti-choice, supports sexual education programs that don't improve sexual health or decrease teen pregnancy, is against equal rights for gays, wants to double Guantanamo, supports "Enhanced interrogation techniques," which is no more than a euphemism for torture, is against diplomacy with nations currently hostile to ours (so that they'll certainly remain that way).

Essentially, Romney in office would be a horrible idea.

When we need help and had to go to the (American run) IMF we were arm twisted into selling out our nations most vital assets for a fraction of their worth. I'm only surprised we weren't made to pawn off the Crown Jewels.

And to put add insult to injury we were arm twisted into giving up our own (genuine) nuclear defences for the "independent" nuclear deterrent, which couldn't be less independent if we handed over the keys for it to Bush in person.

Our culture and history is being washed away by a sea of moronic "infotainment" whilst ignorance, shallowness and consumerism are the Divine Triad of our "shared values".

I do not share them.

The United Kingdom is not the 51st state, yet. And I hope and pray we never, ever become so.

Would this United Kingdom be any relation to the one that had an Empire? Which of course was used to spread your fascinating culture (snooker, darts, fish and chips).Really, credit where it's due. You did create junk food (no, it wasn't the Americans).

Furthermore, you do have a habit of imposing yourselves on other nations. For about a thousand years in the case of the Irish. While the Greeks and Spanish are currently the lucky recipients of your bars, crap food, Eastenders and your unwillingness to learn any other European languages. In fact, don't you people have a tendency to speak of the natives as foreigners when you are in their countries?

If a region could be created in the real world where you could move your country I'd suggest calling it: "The place where we can go to get away from foreigners because we don't like anybody but think we're great."

Are you sure you're not just a teensy-weensy bit jealous of America? Come on , be honest, isn't it that you really think that your country should be waving the big stick?

We kinda saved you from Nazi Germany. But apart from saving your asses, yeah, the US is a blood sucking parasite dedicated to dragging Britain through a cess pool. Yeah. Of course.

I don't think your government is dedicated to it. I just think they do it because it's convenient.

You didn't give us any help in WW2 out of the goodness of your heart, you loaned us the lot. Fair enough, but don't pretend otherwise.

And when the terrorists were attacking us every week in every city, killing our people, you sheltered them. Our people were dying, and you helped the people who did it. People were blown up in shopping malls, in offices. Everywhere. All the time. Do you ever wonder why in the 80's our cities were choked with litter on the streets? Because we removed all the rubbish bins so they couldn't hide bombs in them and kill our people. It was that bad. We made peace ourselves with them, though talk and difficult times for all our people, and you didn't lift a finger to help, besides a photo call when all the work was already done.

So much for T.W.A.T.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abdju View Post
We are treated as nothing more than a convenient military base for our "special friend" to attack people who we have no argument with. We are forced long on moronic, badly planned military escapades which turn the world against us and do not benefit the nation in any way, except having our sons shot in the back by their so-called allies in "friendly" fire.

Dyakovo:
And British soldiers have never accidentally shot anyone


To be fair, I think they usually do it on purpose, especially in the case of unarmed civilians.

For safety reasons I wouldn't advise visiting their country if you are:
a) Irish
b)Brazilian
c)any other nationality

Would this United Kingdom be any relation to the one that had an Empire? Which of course was used to spread your fascinating culture (snooker, darts, fish and chips).Really, credit where it's due. You did create junk food (no, it wasn't the Americans).

Furthermore, you do have a habit of imposing yourselves on other nations. For about a thousand years in the case of the Irish. While the Greeks and Spanish are currently the lucky recipients of your bars, crap food, Eastenders and your unwillingness to learn any other European languages. In fact, don't you people have a tendency to speak of the natives as foreigners when you are in their countries?

If a region could be created in the real world where you could move your country I'd suggest calling it: "The place where we can go to get away from foreigners because we don't like anybody but think we're great."

Are you sure you're not just a teensy-weensy bit jealous of America? Come on , be honest, isn't it that you really think that your country should be waving the big stick?

I do not pretend the United Kingdom is perfect. I just do not feel that our being the servant of a nation whose president thinks God speaks to him personally and who doesn't even know his own language (let alone any others) is good for our nation. Especially one that consistently fails to honour any kind of reciprocal goodwill we give far too readily.

Yes, we had an empire. Most nations have at one point. I think now there are better ways for our nation, given it's current situation. Less a big stick and more focus on our own problems, rather than jumping into yours. We have a lot of things in the commonwealth that we should be doing, none of which involve invading places we could have been at peace with. Our diplomacy and trade would take us far further than force alone. Alas that opportunity is lost for we are no longer seen as a sovereign and diplomatic nation, with influence and insight into the world around her, but rather as a glorified USAF base... or a butt monkey, sometimes both. Thanks for that...

We did screw up too (coughsuezcough) but it could have been salvaged. The Special Relationship put an end to those hopes, however.

So we screwed up the northern Mediterranean, and you screwed up the Caribbean. That doesn't make what you do any more acceptable. My nation is not run by angels, it's true. That in no way justifies allowing it to become a cess pit of Reality TV, monosyllabic speech, and venerated celebrities with no more to justify their adoration than having been locked in a house for a month with a bunch of narcissist egomaniacs and a lot of TV cameras. In fact, perhaps the reason our lobotomised-via-TV population has fled to, and destroyed, the Mediterranean is precisely because of the aforementioned "shared values".

We have our problems. I agree with most of you who are not Americans. I wish we would leave you alone. Ignore the oppressed, refrain from intervention, pull investments out of struggling economies, quit using imported resources, take care of our own. Let's shut it down! Close and reinforce the borders, and lose the visa's! The world doesn't need us anymore! Its time for a lock down!

It is so much easier to identify another's faults, than to work and fix your own!

Something comes to mind about people in glass houses!

P.S. I didn't vote in the poll, as it wasn't directed at me. The intention was to attain a skewed selection, else their would not have been need for exclusion.

Thanks for the information. It made me think.

That in no way justifies allowing it to become a cess pit of Reality TV, monosyllabic speech, and venerated celebrities with no more to justify their adoration than having been locked in a house for a month with a bunch of narcissist egomaniacs and a lot of TV cameras. In fact, perhaps the reason our lobotomised-via-TV population has fled to, and destroyed, the Mediterranean is precisely because of the aforementioned "shared values".

So according to you British stupidity is all the result of bad American telly? I think the BBC has as much to answer for there (Pop Idol)

So according to you British stupidity is all the result of bad American telly? I think the BBC has as much to answer for there (Pop Idol)

No, I think your music had a part to play too... I think anyone with a shred of decency would concede that Britney Spears is incredibly annoying. Pop Idol, in the worst British tradition, merely aimed to embrace and share this cultural gift, rather than turn to our own culture and find our own way.

No, I think your music had a part to play too... I think anyone with a shred of decency would concede that Britney Spears is incredibly annoying. Pop Idol, in the worst British tradition, merely aimed to embrace and share this cultural gift, rather than turn to our own culture and find our own way.

Who? She sings?
What?

America? I live in America, beautiful country, beautiful cities, terrible population (especially in the south) and a government that is akin to the plague. And I mean that literally. I hate my country's government.

Piece of advice. Never come back to the south. EVER! The only good thing down here is the food and that depends greatly on which state you are currently in.

I agree 100% with you about the government, but I don't understand why you think the south is so terrible; what's so terrible about the south?

Thank you. Where do you live?

I live in Tennessee, so I have first-hand experience with the terrible population in the southern United States.

You live in Tennessee? Wow, I thought I was the only one on NSG from Tennessee.

Who? She sings?
What?


"Sings" would be an... exaggeration.

This is what annoys me most about the "special relationship" the UK and the US are meant to have. In all truth, what has the United Kingdom ever gained from our one time colony?


Have you ever heard of a wonderful little romp called "World War 1?"
Quite the page turner. I'll have to read it to you sometime.
True, America didn't sent troops until a year before it ended (Coincidence?), but the money America loaned kept Britan from becoming a third world country in itself

I don't think your government is dedicated to it. I just think they do it because it's convenient.

You didn't give us any help in WW2 out of the goodness of your heart, you loaned us the lot. Fair enough, but don't pretend otherwise.

And when the terrorists were attacking us every week in every city, killing our people, you sheltered them. Our people were dying, and you helped the people who did it. People were blown up in shopping malls, in offices. Everywhere. All the time. Do you ever wonder why in the 80's our cities were choked with litter on the streets? Because we removed all the rubbish bins so they couldn't hide bombs in them and kill our people. It was that bad. We made peace ourselves with them, though talk and difficult times for all our people, and you didn't lift a finger to help, besides a photo call when all the work was already done.

So much for T.W.A.T.

First of all, since when has any nation ever done anything out of the pure goodness of their heart? NEVER! OF COURSE IT WAS FOR NATIONAL INTEREST, YOU DOLT!! I've never seen any time in history when Britain has committed to a major war out of the "pure goodness" of their heart. Is Britain supposed to be our shining example of fighting wars motivated by "pure goodness"? What? Your nonexistant intervention in Rawanda, or any of the other African pest holes? Where is Britain now, in Darfur? Throwing tones of money via humanitarian organizations is not a viable option for people who are being gunned down in the backwoods. There needs to be a war to protect them. But that war costs money, with no returns except "pure goodness"What about slavery? When the American Civil War broke out, the ideal time for Britain to live up to its standards and fight against slavery, we find instead a government secretly cheering for the confederacy. My point is not to rag on Britain, but to prove that rarely, if ever, has there been a war fought for "pure goodness".

US involvement in world war II was mainly motivated by national survival, followed by a general love of democracy and a feeling of kinship with the english people. But you are correct, it was mainly national survival.

You make it sound like Europe is an urban, terrorist hell hole, which I know it is not. Difficult times for your people? Don't make me laugh, your some of the richest people on Earth. Go to Africa, and see the shit they go through there, and then talk to me about how it was so horrible, having to remove city garbage bags. Oh my god, my heart is bleeding for you.

The fact is is that both Europeans and Americans were in a death lock with the USSR, who would have gladly overrun Europe and the US if they had the chance. Funding terrorists in Asia was probably the only truly viable option at the time, to defend vital oil supplies for the US and Europe.

And if Europe has that much trouble with their immigrants, maybe you should reconsider your shitty immigration policy instead of blaming the US for it. After all, you are capable of self government...I hope.

Look, I'm not anti-European or anything. But instead of loading your problems on the US, which, after all, doesn't do anything out of "pure goodness" anyway, maybe you should trying solving them yourselves. Who knows? It might just work.

Sorry Americans, but saying 'I love my country but not my government' is not good enough, not when you pride yourself on you're democratic institutions so greatly. The American people are responsible for their current government because they elected it, through their apathy, ignorance and indifference to public affairs they opened the door for the GOP, laid out the mat, and welcomed them inside for a cup of tea.

If you wanted to change you're system you could, in one week the American people could show true popular power, that is after all what you're republic was based upon. But the truth is this, deep down the American people accepted and wanted the corruption of their system, they let the elites and corporates in because they didn't care, after all they were ignorant whites who didn't care about poor people or any minorities. American politics today is a farcical ceremony of greed, when the white on right have their cultural-pseudo-racism placated by anti-immigration stances, the 'left' liberals have their 'guilt' placated by welfare capitalism to minorities while they do well for themselves.

Blaming is an interesting thing, and it makes people feel good to place it certain individuals, but in reality those politicians are just a manifestation of the corrupt and superficial culture of America. Don't think this is a nationalistic thing, my countrymen are much the same.

You're wrong. We didn't elect George W. Bush because we like or want corruption in our government; we elected him because we thought, at the time, that his opponents would be even worse, so we voted for what we felt like was the lesser of two evils. Besides, NOT EVERYBODY voted for Dubya; many voted for John Kerry.

But the truth is this, deep down the American people accepted and wanted the corruption of their system

That statement is ASININE, not to mention inaccurate. The TRUTH is, the American people thought John Kerry would do even more damage to the country than Dubya had done theretofore. We don't want corruption, we simply (and begrudgingly) tolerate it because we feel like (or heretofore have felt like), no matter WHO we put in the White House, if he is not corrupt when he is voted in, he WILL be once he takes office, or very soon thereafter.

through their apathy, ignorance and indifference to public affairs they opened the door for the GOP

Don't try to tell me that the GOP is the only evil party out there. The Democrats are not necessarily any better, and in many cases are worse. "Evil" and the Democratic Party are NOT mutually exclusive.

Just because a person is a Democrat doesn't mean s/he is not evil, and just because a person is a Republican doesn't mean s/he IS evil.

While it might not be the best country in this world, America is far, far better than most countries in this world (I'm British btw), and some of the more extreme detractors of you seriously need to get your heads out of your arses and look at the competition. America boasts: no armed internal conflict, quality of life is high, long life expectancy, relatively uncorrupt police, relatively uncorrupt government, electoral fraud unheard of, free speech, little/no media censorship.


*runs down the hall and slams shut the fire doors*

While it might not be the best country in this world, America is far, far better than most countries in this world (I'm British btw), and some of the more extreme detractors of you seriously need to get your heads out of your arses and look at the competition. America boasts: no armed internal conflict, quality of life is high, long life expectancy, relatively uncorrupt police, relatively uncorrupt government, electoral fraud unheard of, free speech, little/no media censorship.

Honestly, how does that compare to most of the world? I mean, even when you start criticising foreign policy it's pretty peaceful and civilised, wail all you want about blood for oil in Iraq but almost all the people killing people? They're Iraqis. Compare the treatment of civilians by the US in Afghanistan to the Soviet's and you'll see standards are pretty fucking high for an occupying force. They don't even want to occupy Afghanistan permanently for God's sake.

You're wrong. We didn't elect George W. Bush because we like or want corruption in our government; we elected him because we thought, at the time, that his opponents would be even worse, so we voted for what we felt like was the lesser of two evils.


Oh noes anyone but kerry and the ebil liberals?

You're wrong. We didn't elect George W. Bush because we like or want corruption in our government; we elected him because we thought, at the time, that his opponents would be even worse, so we voted for what we felt like was the lesser of two evils.



This statement is ASININE, not to mention inaccurate.



Don't try to tell me that the GOP is the only evil party out there. The Democrats are not necessarily any better, and in many cases are worse. "Evil" and the Democratic Party are NOT mutually exclusive.

Just because a person is a Democrat doesn't mean s/he is not evil, and just because a person is a Republican doesn't mean s/he IS evil.

He has a point. We are directly responsible for who we elect to represent us. The point of democracy is that all citizens bear equal responsibility for the actions of their government.

On that note, Bush was deceptively good on the campaign trail and unexpectedly bad in office. And we don't have the power of recall to stop him. We're solely dependent on the Democratic Congress and public activism to stop him.

And yes, there are a number of greedy liberals and a number of genuinely good conservatives. Despite public and media perception.

I live in the South (Kentucky, home of fried chicken, horses and bourbon, more specifically) and I love it. I love being out in the beautiful country, away from the city (I don't know where you guys get your "beautiful cities" crap from, but every city I've ever been in was resplendent*sarcasm* in pollution, refuse and too many damn people), and I know plenty of good people to make up for the stupid rednecks and hicks I encounter daily. I do admit the existence of these ‘folk’ but not all of us are like that. I’m an atheist, and my parents aren’t related! Yep, I’m totally a rebel against Southern Stereotypes.

I detest the North though, most particularly my relations up there. Funny thing is, I'm more intelligent than practically all of them, but since I do have an accent, and they know I'm a 'Kentuckian' they all act like they're better than me. I just laugh at them, silly Yankees.

(Disclaimer: A good part of this was intended to have a joking inflection)

EDIT: I'm also a moderate, and I detest our christian-run government, too.

First of all, since when has any nation ever done anything out of the pure goodness of their heart? NEVER! OF COURSE IT WAS FOR NATIONAL INTEREST, YOU DOLT!! I've never seen any time in history when Britain has committed to a major war out of the "pure goodness" of their heart. Is Britain supposed to be our shining example of fighting wars motivated by "pure goodness"?


I don't believe any nation has ever fought for something out of the goodness of their heart. What annoys me is that most Americans often point to their coming to "save the day" was indeed an act of benign kindness for which Europe as a whole (not just the United Kingdom) should be eternally grateful, when the US was only acting in it's own interest. The US didn't rush to "save" Rwanda anymore than we did, after all. We just don't (usually) expect the world to think of us as some nation with the whole "Manifest Destiny" thing going on.


What? Your nonexistant intervention in Rawanda, or any of the other African pest holes? Where is Britain now, in Darfur? Throwing tones of money via humanitarian organizations is not a viable option for people who are being gunned down in the backwoods. There needs to be a war to protect them. But that war costs money, with no returns except "pure goodness"


So following on from the great humanitarian operation to bring freedom and hope to Iraq, we should go and continue this unending stream of victory in Sudan. Enough of our sons have died already for good of other nations (your oil) and I have no desire to see more of them sacrificed in the name of creating yet another quagmire (does anyone really believe the Sudanese will greet us with flower garlands for our soldiers, just like the Iraqis were meant to?)


What about slavery? When the American Civil War broke out, the ideal time for Britain to live up to its standards and fight against slavery, we find instead a government secretly cheering for the confederacy. My point is not to rag on Britain, but to prove that rarely, if ever, has there been a war fought for "pure goodness".


I have already answered this point. I don't believe we fight for goodness, I just don't like it when people claim they do.


US involvement in world war II was mainly motivated by national survival,


Something any nation should rightly fight for, and which it should be open about.



You make it sound like Europe is an urban, terrorist hell hole, which I know it is not. Difficult times for your people? Don't make me laugh, your some of the richest people on Earth. Go to Africa, and see the shit they go through there, and then talk to me about how it was so horrible, having to remove city garbage bags. Oh my god, my heart is bleeding for you.


The United Kingdom did not have the world's worst terrorist problem, but our people died, and your leaders actively helped in perpetuating it upon us, your supposed allies. Without your "state-sponsored terrorism" (which is what it was) it is not unrealistic to think negotiations could have begun earlier and many lives have been saved.

And many of our people did bleed, sometimes hearts, sometimes other bits of them.

I'm not pretending it was the worst in the world. I haven't lived in the United Kingdom all my life, and some of places I did live had much worse problems with terrorism and violence. That doesn't make it any more right, nor any more acceptable. That the situation didn't deteriorate further is due to the actions of our government in de-escalating the conflict, and the willingness of good people within the IRA to sit, talk and negotiate an end to the madness that the US seemed keen to perpetuate.

We didn't have it worst, but the fact still remains that the guns, and bombs, and the "Peace Walls" were all perpetuated by your hand, against your ally.

So don't make me laugh when your nation claims to be fighting terrorism when your people suffered one day of attacks. Why should we rush to help you, when your people helped fund and arm those who attacked us.


The fact is is that both Europeans and Americans were in a death lock with the USSR, who would have gladly overrun Europe and the US if they had the chance. Funding terrorists in Asia was probably the only truly viable option at the time, to defend vital oil supplies for the US and Europe.


Soviet policy on the European borders was defensive. The USSR was more paranoid than aggressive. In GDR East German soldiers were given specific orders not to fire first. Indeed the GDR border system was actually set ever so slightly back from he "real" border to ensure that no accusations of border incursions could be made. The border was more to seal off their empire rather than use it as a springboard for a push into western Europe. It was a modern day Great Wall of China.


And if Europe has that much trouble with their immigrants, maybe you should reconsider your shitty immigration policy instead of blaming the US for it. After all, you are capable of self government...I hope.


What about immigrants? Our population is reasonably stable. Contrary to the reports that occur in the Daily Mail constantly, we don't have an immigration "crisis". All is stable. Our obligations to the EU and Commonwealth are (more or less) honoured as they should be.


Look, I'm not anti-European or anything. But instead of loading your problems on the US, which, after all, doesn't do anything out of "pure goodness" anyway, maybe you should trying solving them yourselves. Who knows? It might just work.


We should, I agree. But that our government seems so beholden to yours often prevents this, and this is why I dislike the US/UK "cultural exchange" and those on both sides who encourage it. The good of the United Kingdom will only be served by her government being loyal to the United Kingdom, not the US. And our real focus should be on our European and Middle Eastern neighbours, not across an ocean.

As per my original quote "I loathe America, and what it has done to the rest of the world"

The latter applying as much to the UK as to the Iraqis, Palestinians, Indonesians etc.

SPeaking of Palestine, I haven't heard much about the peace summit lately. Hows that coming along? Has it broken down into violence yet?

Umm has anybody yet said, I look to the west and there it is?

It said that anti-americanism, bordering on racism, is pretty wide spread.

Anti-americanism cannot be racism because there is no "american race" or american ethnicity... well, unless they define "anti-americanism" as "prejudice against the First Nations"...

Anyway, the USA are in bad shape, if you ask me. Great income divides, lots of "working poor", internal ethnical divisions and prejudice, lots of violence.
Also, I strongly dislike the US foreign policies.

America? I live in America, beautiful country, beautiful cities, terrible population (especially in the south) and a government that is akin to the plague. And I mean that literally. I hate my country's government.

I'm sure it hates you right back... our government is cool like that. As a proud US citizen (especially a southern one) I find that the US's problems are many, but not as many as other countries around the world. We may not be number one anymore, but we're sure not in last place either. Oh by the way, the plague made people's faces fall off.

Oh by the way, the plague made people's faces fall off.

That explains why im suddenly surrounded by ugly chicas..........

No, I still think we're #1, if for the only reason that we don't have nearly as many problems as the next two countries (Russia and China)

America is rotting from the inside out. Everything is going to hell. Prices are going up and up, infrastructure starting to show its age due to lack of upkeep ('cept in rich ares), apathy, drug abuse, gang culture, materialistic culture, greed, etc.

There are still many good, hard working, honest, and decent folk around, however, but it seems like they are getting harder to find.


So, like I said. America is rotting.

edit: this is coming from an american

I just finished reading an interesting article about anti-americanism in Europe. It said that anti-americanism, bordering on racism, is pretty wide spread. This view holds Americans in complete contempt. I know we have had several threads about how bad the US really is. So, I was wondering, Europeans: what is your view on America?

Nothing wrong with most 'merkins'. It's just a pity that your government is in the pocket of the baaaarble bashers. Your foreign policy stinks - a pity Blair fell into line with you.
No matter what they claim, the Bush/Blair coalition has seriously increased the risk of muslim terrorism. (Not that the muslims need very much encouragement).
:mp5:

Anti-americanism cannot be racism because there is no "american race" or american ethnicity... well, unless they define "anti-americanism" as "prejudice against the First Nations"...

Anyway, the USA are in bad shape, if you ask me. Great income divides, lots of "working poor", internal ethnical divisions and prejudice, lots of violence.
Also, I strongly dislike the US foreign policies.

Well really, there are no separate races, but racism does exist. If you hate somebody, or are negatively biased towards somebody based solely on their country of birth, that does count as racism.

I live in a country full of America-lovers. I have never known of a country who loves their former colonizers so much like people in my country do... despite things America had done to the country.

I am studying at one of the most liberal (read: leftist) university in my country. And as such, the anti-Americanism is quite prevalent and vicious.

As for me, I don't care, though I'd prefer America to Europe (except Ireland, perhaps ;)) I think we should not be easily swayed by the automatic anti-Americanism. USA, like any other country in the world, has its share of good and bad...

Oh wait, I'm not welcome in this thread... I'm not European? :(

There's a distinction to be drawn between the country and its government. I have nothing against the United States. I oppose and despise its government.

The US, like most countries, appears to the outside world as a very mixed bag. On the one hand, we see a lot of loud-mouthed, ignorant (shockingly ignorant), bigoted, nationalist buffoons who, for some reason, seem proud of their ignorance and downright stupidity, and want the whole world to know about it. On the other hand, the US is a fascinatingly diverse country, with a fascinating culture, and a great many Americans are civil, educated, open-minded, interested in the rest of the world, intelligent, and capable of criticising their own government (intelligently), as well as the flaws in their own society. I would never consider myself "anti-American".

I wouldn't want my country to become like the United States, but that's not anti-Americanism. Americans are free to shape their own country as they see fit, and good luck to them with it. As long as they're happy with the result, and it isn't pushed onto other countries.

The problem is, some aspects of American society appear archaic to most of us Europeans. This sometimes leads some Europeans to view the US as a "backward" nation or as a "child nation", not quite mature or adult yet.

The three obvious examples are:
*Creationism, and the importance of religion in society
*the gun culture
*the death penalty

In France, we established secularism, complete seperation of religion and State, 102 years ago. When we see religious morals and values expressed by American politicians in government, our automatic reaction is to see US politics as stuck in the 19th century. Religion plays no part in politics here. Heck, most of the time we don't even know what religion our politicians are, if any. I've no idea what Sarkozy's religion is, nor Ségolène Royal's. It's a non-issue. The Creationist "debate" in the US alternately amuses and appalls us, re-enforcing the stereotype of Americans as immature and undeveloped, a "child people". I suppose we have to realise that American society is simply different, and of course realise that not all Americans (far from it) are Creationists. But from our perspective it just seems... strange.

The whole gun debate is another thing that strikes many of us as odd. It contributes to a stereotype of Americans as ignorant gun-toting rednecks with a "Far West" mentality. The gun debate is a non-issue here. Nobody argues that people should have guns. Nobody needs them. It's another point on which the US presents us with a glaring difference, which many of us may find difficult to understand... hence the stereotyping.

Then there's the death penalty. France abolished the death penalty in 1981, so again there's no debate about that here. The only politician who wants to re-introduce the death penalty is Le Pen. The fact that the US still has the death penalty makes it look incredibly backward and even barbaric by European standards. Especially since there's an EU consensus on this issue.

Having said all that, obviously these things stand out, and may tend to mask our commonalities with the US. They also mask the fact that a great many Americans are "just like us".

I do try to take a detached view and not to judge; to consider that the US' particularities, "backward" as they may seem by my country's standards, are its own to resolve. The problem comes when some Americans, notably in the US government, claim to be the leading voice in the Western world. That causes dissonance when some aspects of American society are widely perceived as trailing decades or more than a century behind most Western countries.

It's often tempting to stereotype a lot of Americans and look down on them rather condescendingly, as people who haven't yet reached "our" level of progress, rationality and maturity. But that's because the "odd" aspects of American society stand out so much.

I constantly remind myself that the US has an incredibly diverse society, with many admirable traits. It also has an interesting history, and a culture enriched by good literature and many good films (admittedly amidst many very bad ones).

There. I'm not sure quite where that leaves me... To sum up, I suppose I should just say that being "anti-American", in the sense of "hating America", is simplistic, absurd and irrational. The US is highly complex, and should be viewed as such.

Then there's the death penalty. France abolished the death penalty in 1981, so again there's no debate about that here. The only politician who wants to re-introduce the death penalty is Le Pen. The fact that the US still has the death penalty makes it look incredibly backward and even barbaric by European standards. Especially since there's an EU consensus on this issue.

Well, it should be noted that an increasing number of states have banned the death penalty. In fact, as I'm sure I've said hundreds of times on this forum, my own state was the first democracy in the world to do so in 1846.

America? I live in America, beautiful country, beautiful cities, terrible population (especially in the south) and a government that is akin to the plague. And I mean that literally. I hate my country's government.

What's so bad about the South? I live in the South, and love it! The South is the best section of the US!!

Christian Americans believe in Creation because it is true. :-D Seriously, though, that's why. You secularists believe in the faith of Evolution, we Christians believe in GOD. Not all Americans are Christians, and not all non-Christians believe in Evolution.

On Guns... they're part of our heritage. They are a right given to us by our fabulous Constitution; that's a document France changes every other year.

Death Penalty: There are crimes that deserve death. I believe that the deathe penalty should be expanded; instead of paying for the imprisonment of death-row-inmates for doznes of years before execution, just execute them a lot sooner. Saves money and space.

While it might not be the best country in this world, America is far, far better than most countries in this world (I'm British btw), and some of the more extreme detractors of you seriously need to get your heads out of your arses and look at the competition. America boasts: no armed internal conflict, quality of life is high, long life expectancy, relatively uncorrupt police, relatively uncorrupt government, electoral fraud unheard of, free speech, little/no media censorship.


So does France, with a higher life expectancy and a higher quality of life, I might add. And so does the United Kingdom.

Sweden, Finland, Norway, Iceland, Denmark and the Netherlands lead the world on all those points.

In fact, the US has greater levels of violent crime, a lower life expectancy, a two-party system that makes a mockery of democracy by the standards of the Western world, and less media freedom than any other Western country without exception, according to Reporters Without Borders (link (http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24025)).

So what's your point? That the US is a better country to live in than Eritrea, the Sudan, Russia or China? Granted. If I was born in the United States, I would probably count myself lucky that I wasn't born in Saudi Arabia.

As I said earlier, there are many admirable traits to US society. Most of those are shared with the rest of the Western world. But that's no reason to idealise the United States, or make some ridiculous claim that it's "the best country in the world". It's certainly no reason not to criticise it.

Or do you hate freedom? :p

Well, it should be noted that an increasing number of states have banned the death penalty.

Indeed they have. (Was it eight at last count? Or have I lost track?)


In fact, as I'm sure I've said hundreds of times on this forum, my own state was the first democracy in the world to do so in 1846.

I didn't know that. Thanks for the information. Rock on Michigan, leading the way for the rest of the world. :) (You beat my country by 135 years!)

There's a distinction to be drawn between the country and its government. I have nothing against the United States. I oppose and despise its government.

The US, like most countries, appears to the outside world as a very mixed bag. On the one hand, we see a lot of loud-mouthed, ignorant (shockingly ignorant), bigoted, nationalist buffoons who, for some reason, seem proud of their ignorance and downright stupidity, and want the whole world to know about it. On the other hand, the US is a fascinatingly diverse country, with a fascinating culture, and a great many Americans are civil, educated, open-minded, interested in the rest of the world, intelligent, and capable of criticising their own government (intelligently), as well as the flaws in their own society. I would never consider myself "anti-American".

I wouldn't want my country to become like the United States, but that's not anti-Americanism. Americans are free to shape their own country as they see fit, and good luck to them with it. As long as they're happy with the result, and it isn't pushed onto other countries.

The problem is, some aspects of American society appear archaic to most of us Europeans. This sometimes leads some Europeans to view the US as a "backward" nation or as a "child nation", not quite mature or adult yet.

The three obvious examples are:
*Creationism, and the importance of religion in society
*the gun culture
*the death penalty

In France, we established secularism, complete seperation of religion and State, 102 years ago. When we see religious morals and values expressed by American politicians in government, our automatic reaction is to see US politics as stuck in the 19th century. Religion plays no part in politics here. Heck, most of the time we don't even know what religion our politicians are, if any. I've no idea what Sarkozy's religion is, nor Ségolène Royal's. It's a non-issue. The Creationist "debate" in the US alternately amuses and appalls us, re-enforcing the stereotype of Americans as immature and undeveloped, a "child people". I suppose we have to realise that American society is simply different, and of course realise that not all Americans (far from it) are Creationists. But from our perspective it just seems... strange.

The whole gun debate is another thing that strikes many of us as odd. It contributes to a stereotype of Americans as ignorant gun-toting rednecks with a "Far West" mentality. The gun debate is a non-issue here. Nobody argues that people should have guns. Nobody needs them. It's another point on which the US presents us with a glaring difference, which many of us may find difficult to understand... hence the stereotyping.

Then there's the death penalty. France abolished the death penalty in 1981, so again there's no debate about that here. The only politician who wants to re-introduce the death penalty is Le Pen. The fact that the US still has the death penalty makes it look incredibly backward and even barbaric by European standards. Especially since there's an EU consensus on this issue.

Having said all that, obviously these things stand out, and may tend to mask our commonalities with the US. They also mask the fact that a great many Americans are "just like us".

I do try to take a detached view and not to judge; to consider that the US' particularities, "backward" as they may seem by my country's standards, are its own to resolve. The problem comes when some Americans, notably in the US government, claim to be the leading voice in the Western world. That causes dissonance when some aspects of American society are widely perceived as trailing decades or more than a century behind most Western countries.

It's often tempting to stereotype a lot of Americans and look down on them rather condescendingly, as people who haven't yet reached "our" level of progress, rationality and maturity. But that's because the "odd" aspects of American society stand out so much.

I constantly remind myself that the US has an incredibly diverse society, with many admirable traits. It also has an interesting history, and a culture enriched by good literature and many good films (admittedly amidst many very bad ones).

There. I'm not sure quite where that leaves me... To sum up, I suppose I should just say that being "anti-American", in the sense of "hating America", is simplistic, absurd and irrational. The US is highly complex, and should be viewed as such.

I agree in all points. It's the same in Germany. Thanks for saving me the work of writing my own post and doing it so exceptionally well. :p

To the issues in American life/culture/politics that baffle many Europeans the most I'd add the abortion debate (based, of course, on the already mentioned influence of religion), the gay marriage debate (again, religion), the stance on welfare, and (mainly minority and inner city) poverty.

And yes, all this means that most Europeans would fall squarely on the liberal side of the American political landscape. Which is a further factor in the headshaking over Bush and the Republican Party (not that the Democrats would be that much better, but at least it would be a start).

I didn't know that. Thanks for the information. Rock on Michigan, leading the way for the rest of the world. :) (You beat my country by 135 years!)

Unfortunately, Michigan has dropped the ball in the last 20 years or so on the whole progress thing. Still, I'm confident we'll find our way again.

Anyway, my point was just to reiterate your point, that the US is extremely complex. Our federal system prevents quick perusals and snap judgments about our domestic actions, because it's quite possible that individual states (and cites) operate contrary to the majority.

The wierd thing about America is that most of the cliches are true.

The wierd thing about America is that most of the cliches are true.

Depending on where you go, that is.

There's a distinction to be drawn between the country and its government. I have nothing against the United States. I oppose and despise its government.

Granted..... However, provisions, such as the right to bear arms, and democratic elections, are made to keep the government as a reflection of the people.

The US, like most countries, appears to the outside world as a very mixed bag. On the one hand, we see a lot of loud-mouthed, ignorant (shockingly ignorant), bigoted, nationalist buffoons who, for some reason, seem proud of their ignorance and downright stupidity, and want the whole world to know about it. On the other hand, the US is a fascinatingly diverse country, with a fascinating culture, and a great many Americans are civil, educated, open-minded, interested in the rest of the world, intelligent, and capable of criticising their own government (intelligently), as well as the flaws in their own society. I would never consider myself "anti-American".

Fair assertion, though I would suggest that most nations could be depicted in a "mixed bag" light.

I wouldn't want my country to become like the United States, but that's not anti-Americanism. Americans are free to shape their own country as they see fit, and good luck to them with it. As long as they're happy with the result, and it isn't pushed onto other countries.

Historically, very few countries have survived without "imposing" their will on others. Might is almost always present at some level in any government, due to greed. I fear that you cannot eliminate it.

The problem is, some aspects of American society appear archaic to most of us Europeans. This sometimes leads some Europeans to view the US as a "backward" nation or as a "child nation", not quite mature or adult yet.

The three obvious examples are:
*Creationism, and the importance of religion in society
*the gun culture
*the death penalty

In France, we established secularism, complete seperation of religion and State, 102 years ago. When we see religious morals and values expressed by American politicians in government, our automatic reaction is to see US politics as stuck in the 19th century. Religion plays no part in politics here. Heck, most of the time we don't even know what religion our politicians are, if any. I've no idea what Sarkozy's religion is, nor Ségolène Royal's. It's a non-issue. The Creationist "debate" in the US alternately amuses and appalls us, re-enforcing the stereotype of Americans as immature and undeveloped, a "child people". I suppose we have to realise that American society is simply different, and of course realise that not all Americans (far from it) are Creationists. But from our perspective it just seems... strange.

Ludicrous statement. To suggest that a belief system plays no part in litigation, at any level, is amazingly sheltered. That is the equivalent of stating that environment does not shape policy. Incidentally, when reading Democracy in America, by Alexis DeTocqueville, please update the information.

The whole gun debate is another thing that strikes many of us as odd. It contributes to a stereotype of Americans as ignorant gun-toting rednecks with a "Far West" mentality. The gun debate is a non-issue here. Nobody argues that people should have guns. Nobody needs them. It's another point on which the US presents us with a glaring difference, which many of us may find difficult to understand... hence the stereotyping.

Total Crime

Over the period 1997-2001 crime rose by an average 4% across the EU. The greatest rises were in France, Greece and Portugal (16%), and the greatest drops were in Italy and Denmark. England & Wales saw a fall of 2% over this period. This was my first delve into your statement. The problem simply is not guns, it is enforcement of penalty.



Then there's the death penalty. France abolished the death penalty in 1981, so again there's no debate about that here. The only politician who wants to re-introduce the death penalty is Le Pen. The fact that the US still has the death penalty makes it look incredibly backward and even barbaric by European standards. Especially since there's an EU consensus on this issue.

Of course, given that crime is rising in the EU, as it is in the US, possibly this is an invalid "prejudiced" comment. However, since you eliminate religion from litigation (see above comment), I assume that you believe no crime to be deserving of death, but the logical response of society to simply voluntarily fund the offenders. Personally, as a taxpayer, I think your idea is lacking, regardless of religious influence. You seem to be mistakingly asserting that a civilized society could not, without biblical influence, suggest that a repetitively committed crime could not be brutal and/or damaging enough that a society would deem it punishable by death. Would that society also not fight to death to defend family/nation?

Having said all that, obviously these things stand out, and may tend to mask our commonalities with the US. They also mask the fact that a great many Americans are "just like us".

You seem to consider that similarity to be highly desirable. Forgive me if, as an American, I consider you somewhat proud and arrogant, a reference normally applied to us!

I do try to take a detached view and not to judge; to consider that the US' particularities, "backward" as they may seem by my country's standards, are its own to resolve. The problem comes when some Americans, notably in the US government, claim to be the leading voice in the Western world. That causes dissonance when some aspects of American society are widely perceived as trailing decades or more than a century behind most Western countries.

Again, I am amused at your willingness to identify our characteristics as "correct, while ours are correctable." You continually refer to your "perceptions" as reality. Humerous.


It's often tempting to stereotype a lot of Americans and look down on them rather condescendingly, as people who haven't yet reached "our" level of progress, rationality and maturity. But that's because the "odd" aspects of American society stand out so much.

I constantly remind myself that the US has an incredibly diverse society, with many admirable traits. It also has an interesting history, and a culture enriched by good literature and many good films (admittedly amidst many very bad ones).

There. I'm not sure quite where that leaves me... To sum up, I suppose I should just say that being "anti-American", in the sense of "hating America", is simplistic, absurd and irrational. The US is highly complex, and should be viewed as such.

Granted, given all the comments, I acknowledge that you rallied at the end. Thanks for the input. It challenged my perspectives.

Indeed they have. (Was it eight at last count? Or have I lost track?)


12 states have banned it in the legislature, four haven't used it since 1976, and in one of those four the death penalty has been declared unconstitutional.

I agree in all points. It's the same in Germany. Thanks for saving me the work of writing my own post and doing it so exceptionally well. :p

*blushes* You're welcome. :p


To the issues in American life/culture/politics that baffle many Europeans the most I'd add the abortion debate (based, of course, on the already mentioned influence of religion), the gay marriage debate (again, religion), the stance on welfare, and (mainly minority and inner city) poverty.


Indeed. I'd forgotten about those. Although the gay marriage debate isn't solved in all European countries yet, of course. There's a progressive trend (just as there is in certain US states), but in France, for example, there's no gay marriage yet. Only the PACS.


And yes, all this means that most Europeans would fall squarely on the liberal side of the American political landscape. Which is a further factor in the headshaking over Bush and the Republican Party (not that the Democrats would be that much better, but at least it would be a start).


*nods* There's nothing really similar to the Republican Party as a mainstream party in most European countries. And the Democrats are clearly right-wing by European standards.


Granted..... However, provisions, such as the right to bear arms, and democratic elections, are made to keep the government as a reflection of the people.


I don't really want to get into a gun rights debate, other than to say that democracy is well established in EU countries, and that the idea of violent revolt against our governments would seem ludicrous. You can also bet that no US government is ever going to push American people to those extremes. When the US government wants to control the American people, it does it in the same way as other Western governments: lies, half-truths, scaremongering and propaganda.

Bearing arms today is by no means a way of pressuring the government, and it never will be.

As a Frenchman, I tend to be mildly amused when I hear that argument. No offence, but I can't help but compare. In the US, you have guns, but when you disagree with the government, even when you feel it's violating your rights, you don't seem to do much about it (correct me if I'm wrong). In France, we have no guns, and when we don't like what the government is doing, we take to the streets in peaceful protest marches, we organise massive strikes, and we bring the country to a halt until the government gives in. Experience seems to suggest that the French method is more effective.


Ludicrous statement. To suggest that a belief system plays no part in litigation, at any level, is amazingly sheltered. That is the equivalent of stating that environment does not shape policy.

That's not what I said. But you do have to understand that secularism is deeply rooted in the consciousness of French people and politicians alike. There is no overt place for religion in politics here. No politicians refer to religious principles or morals. That's not to say, of course, that they may not be personally influenced. For example, Chirac's opposition to gay marriage may well have been inspired by his religious beliefs, although he would never have said so. On the whole, the place of religion in French society seems a lot less influential than in the United States.

Not that I'm casting judgement. It's your society, and I'm not living there. You do with it as you please.


Over the period 1997-2001 crime rose by an average 4% across the EU. The greatest rises were in France, Greece and Portugal (16%), and the greatest drops were in Italy and Denmark. England & Wales saw a fall of 2% over this period.

Violent crime? Assault, homicide?


Of course, given that crime is rising in the EU, as it is in the US, possibly this is an invalid "prejudiced" comment. However, since you eliminate religion from litigation (see above comment), I assume that you believe no crime to be deserving of death, but the logical response of society to simply voluntarily fund the offenders. Personally, as a taxpayer, I think your idea is lacking, regardless of religious influence. You seem to be mistakingly asserting that a civilized society could not, without biblical influence, suggest that a repetitively committed crime could not be brutal and/or damaging enough that a society would deem it punishable by death. Would that society also not fight to death to defend family/nation?


War is an entirely different issue. Not to mention that we're not in danger of being invaded by anyone.

See, as a European, I find it disgusting that the "taxpayer" argument should be factored into any debate on the death penalty. Our perspective is obviously different. (Incidentally, a person death row in the US costs more than a person sentenced to life in jail. If you want to use the tax argument, you should be arguing against the death penalty.) The argument that was consistently used in Europe was that of humaneness. That the death penalty was barbaric, a relic of less civilised times. Oh, and of course that the possibility of an error of justice made it horrifically unjustifiable.


You seem to consider that similarity to be highly desirable. Forgive me if, as an American, I consider you somewhat proud and arrogant, a reference normally applied to us!


You're probably right on that point. French arrogance, no doubt. ;) I do try, though.


Granted, given all the comments, I acknowledge that you rallied at the end. Thanks for the input. It challenged my perspectives.


You're welcome.

12 states have banned it in the legislature, four haven't used it since 1976, and in one of those four the death penalty has been declared unconstitutional.

Thank you for the update.

Depending on where you go, that is.

I don't know, there are exceptions (por ejemplo New York for a few of them) but mainly they seem pretty accurate.

... pollution: ... for that matter we're not the worst

You are actually, but it's just one of the facts you arrogantly ignore.

Indeed. I'd forgotten about those. Although the gay marriage debate isn't solved in all European countries yet, of course. There's a progressive trend (just as there is in certain US states), but in France, for example, there's no gay marriage yet. Only the PACS.
Oh, no, I didn't mean to say that. I meant that despite it being an issue here, too, it is debated nowhere near as viciously and polemically and with all that fundamentalist rhetoric.

Valuable arguments, Ariddia. Hope to see more of your posts.

I love America. Faults and all. The best definition to me of a great country is the length of the line of the other people trying to get in.

All currently existing countries suck. America is not exempt.

america is a good country, people a lot of the time hate us cause we're there. thats my take on it, obviously everybodys not liek that