NationStates Jolt Archive

Was it necessary to slaughter those children at Waco?

Perhaps David Koresh overstepped his First amendment rights -- though it is debatable. But THE CHILDREN??? Why did the government of the United Statelets murder them?

As for Guantanamo, it is outrageous. Most of us in Europe would never do anything like that any more. True, we had concentration camps like Guantanamo in the 1940s (Dachau, Mauthausen)* but we've matured since.

Washington D.C. took the same stand towards Firts Nations in the second half of the 19th century (with concentartion camps known as "reserves"/"reservations") as it takes today towards "enemy combatants".

The worst part of it all was not those naked Arab men in the Middle East tortured by that Yank woman and Yank man who were getting pre-sex excitement out of torturing the prisoners (forbidden by Geneva Convention).

No, the worst part was when the Yank Justice Dept loudspeaker (aka "spokesperson") said that Gitmo fell under the jurisdiction of the Cuban Supreme Court and all complaints should be addressed there.

Abhorrent level of hypocrisy.

* Auschwitz in the 1940s was worse than Guantanamo is today. Dachau and Mauthausen were about the same.

THe government gave away free cheese in the 1980s and that evens out I think. :)

THe government gave away free cheese in the 1980s and that evens out I think. :)

Gub'ment cheese FTW! :D

Thought the title read
"US Government Murders Chicken..."

Guess I'm just sleepy...

Chicken and cheese yum!

America is changing the whole world order. Now you can expect every country to follow America's example. Why shouldn't the Sudanese government blame the Darfur people as "terrorist" and deserve what they get or the Burmese government point out that the monks were "unlawful combatants" and need to be locked up indefinitely. History books hold the fate of nations that played the “might is right” role and their consequences.

America is changing the whole world order. Now you can expect every country to follow America's example. Why shouldn't the Sudanese government blame the Darfur people as "terrorist" and deserve what they get or the Burmese government point out that the monks were "unlawful combatants" and need to be locked up indefinitely. History books hold the fate of nations that played the “might is right” role and their consequences.

But will Sudan distribute free cheese?

History books hold the fate of nations that played the “might is right” role and their consequences.

See the Roman Empire. You know, the one that lasted 2,000 years and was achieved almost completely by conquest.

You're bringing up Waco? WTF? All the shit that's gone on the last few years and you reach back for that silliness? I don't know what passes for trolling in old Europe, but you're going to have do much better than that to bait Americans.

History books hold the fate of nations that played the “might is right” role and their consequences.

The Thousand-Year Reich failed because of lack of free dairy-based products.

I don't know what passes for trolling in old Europe, but you're going to have do much better than that to bait Americans.

In fact i just found this post lurking under a bridge....

isnt it a bit of a leap to go from the sad fact that those children burned to death to suggesting that the government planned to kill the children?

The Thousand-Year Reich failed because of lack of free dairy-based products.

the OP suggests that europe has progressed since the era of the 3rd reich. does europe give out free cheese today?

the OP suggests that europe has progressed since the era of the 3rd reich. does europe give out free cheese today?

Rather than directly giving cheese to the citizenry (an expensive process), Europe has settled upon giving obscenely large government handouts to French dairy farmers, in an effort to bring down the price of cheese.

* Auschwitz in the 1940s was worse than Guantanamo is today. Dachau and Mauthausen were about the same.

Over 25,000 died at Dachau. That's a little worse than Guantanamo.

America has such advanced cheese technology that citizens in Green Bay wear cheese as headwear. Such is our advanced cheese culture that our youth are taught to "cut the cheese" at a very young age. This tradition causes great merriment and is enjoyed extensively, particularly by males. Now that you realize the power of cheese, you silly European, bow down and admit defeat.

Over 25,000 died at Dachau. That's a little worse than Guantanamo.

Well, yes: a little. So far. And Dachau's number is final.

David Koresh? Do you know why they actually went to arrest him? He was fucking those children. As for children being killed, they knew he had a stockpile of weapons, and so they brought a lot of people.. and a firefight ensued. I don't think you can blame either david or the US government for having a gun fight. Would you like being arrested as a pedophile? No. Did it need to be done? Hell yes.

As for Gitmo, who ever said they weren't suppose to torture people? U.S. Citizens, yeah. Forign soldiers? Yup. But, not anything about terrorists. They do use some restraint. We're not talking about thumb screws. We're talking about psychologically screwing them up. I'm a lot more happy with that, to be honest.

And, finally... You do remember that when that shit came out about the lady and man doing the shit to the iraqi soldiers... THEY WERE ARRESTED. What did you want to happen?

Well, yes: a little. So far. And Dachau's number is final.

I see. You're lactose intolerant.

Was it necessary to slaughter those children at Waco?

Perhaps David Koresh overstepped his First amendment rights -- though it is debatable. But THE CHILDREN??? Why did the government of the United Statelets murder them?


Waco Texas was a botch job by the ATF, a defective tear gas grenade or something caused the fire, unless the Branch Davidians caused the fire themselves... agents tried to rescue people and were shot at... those people kept the children in there and let them burn to death on thier own, don't blame the government for what a bunch of crackpots did.

Rather than directly giving cheese to the citizenry (an expensive process), Europe has settled upon giving obscenely large government handouts to French dairy farmers, in an effort to bring down the price of cheese.

that is progress but it has not reached the level the US attained under ronald reagan

David Koresh? [...]Would you like being arrested as a pedophile? No. Did it need to be done? Hell yes.

So, you are saying that as a pedophile, you wouldn't like to be arested. OK. It doesn't mean they have to burn you alive.

As for Gitmo, who ever said they weren't suppose to torture people? U.S. Citizens, yeah. Forign soldiers? Yup. But, not anything about terrorists. They do use some restraint. We're not talking about thumb screws. We're talking about psychologically screwing them up. I'm a lot more happy with that, to be honest.

No. Not anyone. It's explicitly forbidden, however you yourself may feel. Not allowed. Even by your own country's standards, and by a bulk of international treaties Yanks have signed to. Full stop.

And, finally... You do remember that when that shit came out about the lady and man doing the shit to the iraqi soldiers... THEY WERE ARRESTED. What did you want to happen?

That bitch was not a lady, and that shithead was not a man.

Arrested, perhaps. Sentenced? Serving?

I see. You're lactose intolerant.

Actually my major problem in China are chaotic traffic and the fact that to buy medium quality cheese I have to get on a bus and travel for 30 minutes to one of the few shops that sell imported European cheese (one even has some cheddar from North America -- not that I buy that).

Within 5 km from where I live no supermarket (and some are quite big) sells cheese, creme fraiche, plain yoghurt etc.

Actually my major problem in China are chaotic traffic and the fact that to buy medium quality cheese I have to get on a bus and travel for 30 minutes to one of the few shops that sell imported European cheese (one even has some cheddar from North America -- not that I buy that).

Within 5 km from where I live no supermarket (and some are quite big) sells cheese, creme fraiche, plain yoghurt etc.

Sounds like you should move to America, we dont have supply problems :P

David Koresh? Do you know why they actually went to arrest him? He was fucking those children. As for children being killed, they knew he had a stockpile of weapons, and so they brought a lot of people.. and a firefight ensued. I don't think you can blame either david or the US government for having a gun fight. Would you like being arrested as a pedophile? No. Did it need to be done? Hell yes.

As for Gitmo, who ever said they weren't suppose to torture people? U.S. Citizens, yeah. Forign soldiers? Yup. But, not anything about terrorists. They do use some restraint. We're not talking about thumb screws. We're talking about psychologically screwing them up. I'm a lot more happy with that, to be honest.

And, finally... You do remember that when that shit came out about the lady and man doing the shit to the iraqi soldiers... THEY WERE ARRESTED. What did you want to happen?
People really don't like white gunk all over their country, you know.

People really don't like white gunk all over their country, you know.

You mean Brie?

Sounds like you should move to America, we dont have supply problems :P

When tit comes to America, I'd love to move to Brazil, Uruguay or even Costarica, but I would need to establish a business there (and here I work for a ministry as a foreign expert).

If you meat the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico, it is NOT "America", just a tiny part thereof.

Yes, I could, but that would mean my taxes going for the nuclear armament, so -- NO.

Here I do not pay taxes (2 of my 3 countries of citizenship have a 2 year exemption agreement). I'll probably leave the day I am expected to pay taxes and go to yet another country where I will be privileged, and which does not bring destruction and death to foreigners.

America is changing the whole world order. Now you can expect every country to follow America's example. Why shouldn't the Sudanese government blame the Darfur people as "terrorist" and deserve what they get or the Burmese government point out that the monks were "unlawful combatants" and need to be locked up indefinitely. History books hold the fate of nations that played the “might is right” role and their consequences.


It's already happening the world over.


Russia in it's flattening of Chechnya, calls it a part of fighting 'The War on Terror'.


Same with China and the Uighur people, and Pakistan's Musharraf in killing democracy.

I myself prefer the ease with which I can get Havarti, Gouda, Roquefort and Cheddar.

See the Roman Empire. You know, the one that lasted 2,000 years and was achieved almost completely by conquest.The Roman Empire did not last for 2000 years, and in the case of the Roman Empire conquest is relative.

And the US is evil, indeed.

See the Roman Empire. You know, the one that lasted 2,000 years and was achieved almost completely by conquest.


Ah yes, would that be the very same Roman Empire that incurred the cost of it's conquesting adventures when the Visigoths invaded and ransacked Rome?


The US should pray it does not incur the same fate in it's sowing the seeds of present and future vengeance and animosity and thus reaping them in a bitter harvest to come.

As for Gitmo, who ever said they weren't suppose to torture people? U.S. Citizens, yeah. Forign soldiers? Yup. But, not anything about terrorists. They do use some restraint. We're not talking about thumb screws. We're talking about psychologically screwing them up. I'm a lot more happy with that, to be honest.

One would think that all humans wouldn't be tortured, not just ones that fall under certain categories. But maybe that's just my dangerous liberal beliefs popping up....

You mean Brie?

Feta. *nod*

One would think that all humans wouldn't be tortured, not just ones that fall under certain categories. But maybe that's just my dangerous liberal beliefs popping up....

The United Statelets are a signatory of UN Convention for the Prevention of Torture that APPLIES to all humans ACROSS THE BOARD -- NO EXCEPTIONS.

Here I do not pay taxes (2 of my 3 countries of citizenship have a 2 year exemption agreement). I'll probably leave the day I am expected to pay taxes and go to yet another country where I will be privileged,

Oh i see, your a leech for a living. In the US we call that a Kato Kaelin.

a bitter harvest can be deterred with cheese on the plates of the farmers

Ah yes, would that be the very same Roman Empire that incurred the cost of it's conquesting adventures when the Visigoths invaded and ransacked Rome?

Well, you see, instead of distributing cheese, they distributed bread and expensive public spectacles (known as 'circuses'.) Cheese, giving much more nutritional value than either bread or circuses, would have required less distribution, allowing the roman public to remain enthralled without having so much money not spent on defense.

Oh i see, your a leech for a living.

Explains the equating of Guantanamo with Auschwitz. Laughable.

Here I do not pay taxes (2 of my 3 countries of citizenship have a 2 year exemption agreement). I'll probably leave the day I am expected to pay taxes and go to yet another country where I will be privileged,
Oh i see, your a leech for a living. In the US we call that a Kato Kaelin.

Not at all.

I am just smarter than you, better eductaed than you, and needed in more places than you.

So I use the best of it to refuse support to governments -- even of the countries that do not irritate me very much -- because I never support all governments policies and therefore feel tricked when I have to finance them.

And I do not know -- or care to learn -- who (or what) Kato Kaelin might be.

See it's some local issue of yours in your forsaken backwater outpost (outhole) -- ergo: irrelevant to me as an anti-globalist globe trotter.

I hear Stiltson's very nice.

The United Statelets are a signatory of UN Convention for the Prevention of Torture that APPLIES to all humans ACROSS THE BOARD -- NO EXCEPTIONS.

Well damn, you mean those "unlawful combatants" are still covered? I suppose someone should tell Bush... I wonder if he'll give a damn?

Explains the equating of Guantanamo with Auschwitz. Laughable.

Actually, your illiteracy (or is it stupidity) is laughable.

In my post Guantanamo was SPECIFICALLY NOT EQUATED with Auschwitz, but with Dachau.

And from my European perspective these two remain quite alike: illegal, illegitimate, using torture, causing death, having prisoners there for no other reason but their name etc.

Was it necessary to slaughter those children at Waco?

Perhaps David Koresh overstepped his First amendment rights -- though it is debatable. But THE CHILDREN??? Why did the government of the United Statelets murder them?

As for Guantanamo, it is outrageous. Most of us in Europe would never do anything like that any more. True, we had concentration camps like Guantanamo in the 1940s (Dachau, Mauthausen)* but we've matured since.

Washington D.C. took the same stand towards Firts Nations in the second half of the 19th century (with concentartion camps known as "reserves"/"reservations") as it takes today towards "enemy combatants".

The worst part of it all was not those naked Arab men in the Middle East tortured by that Yank woman and Yank man who were getting pre-sex excitement out of torturing the prisoners (forbidden by Geneva Convention).

No, the worst part was when the Yank Justice Dept loudspeaker (aka "spokesperson") said that Gitmo fell under the jurisdiction of the Cuban Supreme Court and all complaints should be addressed there.

Abhorrent level of hypocrisy.

* Auschwitz in the 1940s was worse than Guantanamo is today. Dachau and Mauthausen were about the same.

I guess nobody cares about the attrocities carried out by the Federal Government at Camp Douglas at Chicago, Illinois during the American Civil War. Camp Douglas had a higher death rate that the better known Confederate POW camp at Andersonville, Georgia. Ooops, I forgot; My southern ancestors were 'evil' slave-owners who deserved their fate. Never mind that most of the southern soldiers were fighting for their independence, history is written by the victors.

Not at all.

I am just smarter than you, better eductaed than you, and needed in more places than you.

So I use the best of it to refuse support to governments -- even of the countries that do not irritate me very much -- because I never support all governments policies and therefore feel tricked when I have to finance them.

You feel tricked when asked to pay taxes for policies you dont support. Do you think its fair for the States you occupy and thier supporting taxpayers to be tricked by you, by using thier roads and the myriad of other public services every day and dont pay for? Thats pretty damn tricky of you. Doesnt that make you a hypocrite?

is that from the quotations of chairman mao?

No Mayor McCheese said it.

a bitter harvest can be deterred with cheese on the plates of the farmers

is that from the quotations of chairman mao?

I guess nobody cares about the attrocities carried out by the Federal Government at Camp Douglas at Chicago, Illinois during the American Civil War. Camp Douglas had a higher death rate that the better known Confederate POW camp at Andersonville, Georgia. Ooops, I forgot; My southern ancestors were 'evil' slave-owners who deserved their fate. Never mind that most of the southern soldiers were fighting for their independence, history is written by the victors.

oddly enough, the longer ago a thing happened, the less outrage there is over it.

go figure.

oddly enough, the longer ago a thing happened, the less outrage there is over it.

go figure.

Im still furious we discovered fire. Its been all downhill ever since.

You feel tricked when asked to pay taxes for policies you dont support. Do you think its fair for the States you occupy and thier supporting taxpayers to be tricked by you, by using thier roads and the myriad of other public services every day and dont pay for? Thats pretty damn tricky of you. Doesnt that make you a hypocrite?

Not at all. I pay my city bus ticket or cab fare and a portion thereof goes for tax and road maintenance.

Of course I do pay tax on every good I purchase (except rather expensive ones I can claim refund on). But on income -- NO. That's exactly why these treaties were invented, so that peopole would move from country to country and help the economies.

If I stay in a country longer than two years, of course, I become a resident and have to pay tax. But I prefer moving.

In some countries teo or even all three of my countries of citizenship have a treaty. Why not use that? What is ethically wrong in it? -- Nothing.

I had only one citizenship at birth. Then I made one of my parents claim another and I got it too and for the third one I made the effort myself. So I have to be rewarded according to the treaties -- which I did NOT put in place, but there is absolutely nothing wrong in using them.

You feel tricked when asked to pay taxes for policies you dont support. Do you think its fair for the States you occupy and thier supporting taxpayers to be tricked by you, by using thier roads and the myriad of other public services every day and dont pay for? Thats pretty damn tricky of you. Doesnt that make you a hypocrite?

noooo i think its more THIS that is the problem

Here I do not pay taxes (2 of my 3 countries of citizenship have a 2 year exemption agreement). I'll probably leave the day I am expected to pay taxes and go to yet another country where I will be privileged, and which does not bring destruction and death to foreigners.

he works for CHINA and figures that its not contribution to bad things because they only bring destruction and death to their own people (supposing that we consider tibetans to be chinese, for example)

N
In some countries teo or even all three of my countries of citizenship have a treaty. Why not use that? What is ethically wrong in it? -- Nothing.
So I have to be rewarded according to the treaties -- which I did NOT put in place, but there is absolutely nothing wrong in using them.

No its not wrong in terms of any laws but if your going to be a leech on society just dont expect people to thank you for it or pat you on the back for how smart you are for manipulating the system or anything. In the US we have welfare programs where we give people huge sums of money for free. There is nothing wrong with using them, but people will not view you favorably,and no one will be declaring how smart you are for getting money for free, because people dont like being leeched from for the most part.

but you're going to have do much better than that to bait Americans.

Clearly not. No matter how poor the bait, there's always someone who will bite.

I hear Stiltson's very nice.

It's great, I just had some last night.

For someone who decries 'American ignorance' it seems odd to make the very 'American' mistake of referring to Europe as a homogeneous whole instead of a collection of individual countries with separate histories. I'm sure France is more than thrilled to get to share responsibility for Dachau...

Really, you're the same nut, different salt.

Now, people were saying something about free cheese...?

For someone who decries 'American ignorance' it seems odd to make the very 'American' mistake of referring to Europe as a homogeneous whole instead of a collection of individual countries with separate histories. I'm sure France is more than thrilled to get to share responsibility for Dachau...

Really, you're the same nut, different salt.


And you seem to be the same puke, different consistency. But the stink is still the same.


In any case, France's Vichy government very much did send many French citizens to Dachau, just because they happened to be Jewish. Or Communists. Or Jehova's Witnesses. Or whatever ministers of the Vichy govt were not.

The lowest percentage of pre war Jewish population survival was in Holland, much lower even than in Germany (including extra-pro-Nazi Austria as a part of then-Germany). Why? Because the Dutch are both efficient bureaucrats and hypocritical small-profit margin minded bigots.

Seriously...What the eff...

Waco was a tragedy beyond words, and was the innevitable result of a cult mentality controlled by a psychopath.

A lot of the blame, in my mind, lays with Koresh, who manipulated, indoctrinated and brainwashed dozens. Oh, and he broke several dozen weapons laws...and he was a child rapist...

That's not to say that the Feds and the ATF didn't royally fuck the operation up. Obviously their mentality was not to negotiate, even back then.

But then again it was Koresh who refused to release anyone from his compound, even those who wished it, largely due to the cult mentality he ruled over them.

...So sorry...

Waco, in the words of a man I know...was FUBAR. Assigning blame to ONE group or individual is not giving due credence to the event at large.

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...And has anyone ever tried a pulled pork sandwich with melted American cheese...mmm:D

No its not wrong in terms of any laws but if your going to be a leech on society just dont expect people to thank you for it or pat you on the back for how smart you are for manipulating the system or anything. In the US we have welfare programs where we give people huge sums of money for free. There is nothing wrong with using them, but people will not view you favorably,and no one will be declaring how smart you are for getting money for free, because people dont like being leeched from for the most part.

Oh, cut the crap you envious old fart. It's just that you wish you had the opportunity which I do.

There is nothing exploitative about using the law that says: you help Chinese economy better cope with your own country's one -- you get tax exemption (and vice versa for the Chinese who go to my countries). To the contrary, I should get a tax bonus FOR LIFE.

oddly enough, the longer ago a thing happened, the less outrage there is over it.

go figure.

You`re right about that and my family has suffered some of these outrages, some were sent to the 'reservations' and my namesake died at Camp Douglas. I wouldn`t say that i`m outraged but i know what happened and it could happen again. Like my ancestors did, i`ll make my choice and live or die by it.

And you seem to be the same puke, different consistency. But the stink is still the same.


In any case, France's Vichy government very much did send many French citizens to Dachau, just because they happened to be Jewish. Or Communists. Or Jehova's Witnesses. Or whatever ministers of the Vichy govt were not.

The lowest percentage of pre war Jewish population survival was in Holland, much lower even than in Germany (including extra-pro-Nazi Austria as a part of then-Germany). Why? Because the Dutch are both efficient bureaucrats and hypocritical small-profit margin minded bigots.

Yes, the actions of occupied France make a compelling argument. Europe is a homogeneous whole, not individual nations with separate histories. Your solitary example of the actions of an occupied government has convinced me, that and your obsession with puke. Well done, sir-take a bow.

Yes, the actions of occupied France make a compelling argument. Europe is a homogeneous whole, not individual nations with separate histories. Your solitary example of the actions of an occupied government has convinced me, that and your obsession with puke. Well done, sir-take a bow.

Need I remind the more intelligent and more careful readers that it was exactly you yourself who brought up exactly that very question of Dachau as allegedly being something unacceptable to France for suggesting its complicity?

Need I remind the more intelligent and more careful readers that it was exactly you yourself who brought up exactly that very question of Dachau as allegedly being something unacceptable to France for suggesting its complicity?

The more intelligent reader would understand the difference between an occupied government and an independent one, more over the more intelligent reader would not be lead to believe that the one off the cuff 'example' was the sole column on which the argument stood (which was in fact a rather obvious statement in and of itself such that the more intelligent reader would not have needed an example). So no, my friend, the more intelligent reader would discard your assistance as irrelevant and you need do nothing.

And has anyone ever tried a pulled pork sandwich with melted American cheese...mmm:D

Pulled pork barbecue is heaven on a bun.

The more intelligent reader would understand the difference between an occupied government and an independent one, more over the more intelligent reader would not be lead to believe that the one off the cuff 'example' was the sole column on which the argument stood (which was in fact a rather obvious statement in and of itself such that the more intelligent reader would not have needed an example). So no, my friend, the more intelligent reader would discard your assistance as irrelevant and you need do nothing.


This convoluted blabber is ludicrous in itself and might entertain some. However, I had asked more intelligent readers than you, so you were not to attempt to answer (and fail, as you do).

In any case, a person with an average intelligence (which you apparently do not possess) would be able to understand that when s/he uses as a quasi-argument some falsity presented as fact -- that France would be unhappy for being considred repsonsible for Dachau -- s/he would have to deal with a genuine fact: France's true complicity in Dachau.

Dutch true complicity in Auschwitz and the plunder of Jewish houses.

Polish, French, Dutch etc. true complicity in murdering Jews who survived, returned and tried to claim their property.

Of course, of you I expect absolutely nothing. Not to understand anything, not to come with a reasonably probable argument and not to communicate in a proper manner.

This convoluted blabber is ludicrous in itself and might entertain some. However, I had asked more intelligent readers than you, so you were not to attempt to answer (and fail, as you do).

In any case, a person with an average intelligence (which you apparently do not possess) would be able to understand that when s/he uses as a quasi-argument some falsity presented as fact -- that France would be unhappy for being considred repsonsible for Dachau -- s/he would have to deal with a genuine fact: France's true complicity in Dachau.

Dutch true complicity in Auschwitz and the plunder of Jewish houses.

Polish, French, Dutch etc. true complicity in murdering Jews who survived, returned and tried to claim their property.

Of course, of you I expect absolutely nothing. Not to understand anything, not to come with a reasonably probable argument and not to communicate in a proper manner.

A-GUUBAH! Your statement makes about that much sense to me..

Im still furious we discovered fire. Its been all downhill ever since.

Finally a statement I understand! Your wrong, what about frozen pizzas and individually wrapped cheese slices? Sliced bread?

As for Guantanamo, it is outrageous. Most of us in Europe would never do anything like that any more. True, we had concentration camps like Guantanamo in the 1940s (Dachau, Mauthausen)* but we've matured since.


We have? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/9/newsid_4071000/4071849.stm)

1971: NI activates internment law
The Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, Brian Faulkner, has introduced a new law giving the authorities the power to indefinitely detain suspected terrorists without trial.

We have? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/9/newsid_4071000/4071849.stm)

How many times must I tell you: Don't confuse the issue with FACTS. ;)

Of course, of you I expect absolutely nothing. Not to understand anything, not to come with a reasonably probable argument and not to communicate in a proper manner.
If you're going to pull this shit at least bother to use a spell checker. Firefox has one built in for the especially challenged. Personally I could give a rats ass, but as you clearly do blathering on about peoples ability to communicate becomes laughable when it is accompanied with so many spelling mistakes.

Further, it would serve you better to actually let your arguments ring instead of padding them with the fanfare in the hopes that they will be read as intelligent as you wish they were. But I guess the more they fail to hit the mark the more fluff they need, so bluster away, champ.
This convoluted blabber is ludicrous in itself and might entertain some. However, I had asked more intelligent readers than you, so you were not to attempt to answer (and fail, as you do).

In any case, a person with an average intelligence (which you apparently do not possess) would be able to understand that when s/he uses as a quasi-argument some falsity presented as fact -- that France would be unhappy for being considred repsonsible for Dachau -- s/he would have to deal with a genuine fact: France's true complicity in Dachau. The actions of the occupied French government would in fact have little effect on France's happiness with being considered responsible with Dachau. In fact, non-occupied Germany at this moment isn't necessarily thrilled with its complicity in Dachau.

That semantic point aside, your needling ignores this minor event that coincided with the collaborations, namely a large skirmish, one might say a battle or in fact a war-lets call it World War II, to resist the actions of the occupiers and by extension their occupied governments

This, however, is still a disingenuous red herring. You still fail to address the larger failing of referring to Europe as a homogeneous whole instead of seperate countries with separate histories.

As this is a continued evasion as you try desperately to squirrel down another path, no matter how ill-fitting, we can assume you recognize its indefensibility and we can happily move on.

Felling kind of dumb here because I never heard about Waco or Koresch but I do know about Gitmo. It's a real shame. It blatently violates the 8th Amendment. And the whole CUban Government thing is just silliness. But I'm sure European governments have plenty of secrets to.

Smoked Gouda. Butterkäse. Edam(and smile). :)

You`re right about that and my family has suffered some of these outrages, some were sent to the 'reservations' and my namesake died at Camp Douglas. I wouldn`t say that i`m outraged but i know what happened and it could happen again. Like my ancestors did, i`ll make my choice and live or die by it.

you have a good point of view there.

by remembering the past and identifying with its victims you can understand in a way that others have a hard time with that the men in guantanamo bay are not just "terrorists" any more than the men in camp douglas were just "johnny rebs".

Chicken and cheese yum!

Tell me more about this seemingly tasty combo. :D

I see. You're lactose intolerant.

You know, they make a pill for that.

I myself prefer the ease with which I can get Havarti, Gouda, Roquefort and Cheddar.

I like Havarti and smoked Gouda (and only smoked Gouda), I tolerate Cheddar (it's usually too sharp for me, I prefer something smoother), but I've never had Roquefort.

Have you tried Edam?

...And has anyone ever tried a pulled pork sandwich with melted American cheese...mmm:D

I'm not such a fan of pulled pork sandwiches, but with the addition of american cheese, I'd be willing to give it a shot.

Was it necessary to slaughter those children at Waco?

Perhaps David Koresh overstepped his First amendment rights -- though it is debatable. But THE CHILDREN??? Why did the government of the United Statelets murder them?

As for Guantanamo, it is outrageous. Most of us in Europe would never do anything like that any more. True, we had concentration camps like Guantanamo in the 1940s (Dachau, Mauthausen)* but we've matured since.

Washington D.C. took the same stand towards Firts Nations in the second half of the 19th century (with concentartion camps known as "reserves"/"reservations") as it takes today towards "enemy combatants".

The worst part of it all was not those naked Arab men in the Middle East tortured by that Yank woman and Yank man who were getting pre-sex excitement out of torturing the prisoners (forbidden by Geneva Convention).

No, the worst part was when the Yank Justice Dept loudspeaker (aka "spokesperson") said that Gitmo fell under the jurisdiction of the Cuban Supreme Court and all complaints should be addressed there.

Abhorrent level of hypocrisy.

* Auschwitz in the 1940s was worse than Guantanamo is today. Dachau and Mauthausen were about the same.

First of all it's Yaknee, and you can stop calling us that too. It's American.

Second of all, you have no idea what happened in Waco obviously. The government obviously went in there and just slaughtered those little kids. They were unholy and we just had to purify them. Back to reality, even if the government did fuck it up, there was no intention of doing harm to them. We were trying to get them out of there so they wouldn't be raped by that freak.

And don't compare Gitmo with a concentration camp. That's insulting. We don't massacre people in there. And people in Gitmo are not poor innocent Muslims whose only crime is to be Muslim. That's bullshit. I do not support Gitmo, and there are undoubtedly innocent people in there, but the majority of them are terrorists and should be put in jail (after a fair trial). So don't dare compare those beasts to the innocent people in concentration camps.

It was Koresh and his mad followers that murdered those children, not the US government. The only thing the government failed to do was kill Koresh and his violent followers quickly enough to prevent it.

It was Koresh and his mad followers that murdered those children, not the US government. The only thing the government failed to do was kill Koresh and his violent followers quickly enough to prevent it.

They had no cheese. :(

See now i heard Koresh had gone mad on Cheesewiz. Something about having no crackers..

They had no cheese. :(

Blasphemy!

Blasphemy!

I'm afraid it is true. No cheese was found in the Koresh compound. :(

See now i heard Koresh had gone mad on Cheesewiz. Something about having no crackers..

Cheesewiz ≠ real cheese.

Cheesewiz ≠ real cheese.

Unless you live in Philadelphia.

Tengo una cuchilla. Me da su queso. :gundge:



Translation: "I have a knife. Give me your cheese."

Has anyone mentioned Provolone yet? It's deliciousness cannot be overstated.

Has anyone mentioned Provolone yet? It's deliciousness cannot be overstated.

Your guinea wop cheese ain't welcome here, see? Yeah, see, yeah! http://209.85.12.231/11055/49/emo/mafia.gif

Your guinea wop cheese ain't welcome here, see? Yeah, see, yeah! http://209.85.12.231/11055/49/emo/mafia.gif

This be a free internets, mistah. Mah cheese dun squats wherever it pleases.

http://www.dottyparker.com/blog/images/angry-hobo.jpg

As for Guantanamo, it is outrageous. Most of us in Europe would never do anything like that any more. True, we had concentration camps like Guantanamo in the 1940s (Dachau, Mauthausen)* but we've matured since.


There is absolutely nothing even remotely comparable between the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay and Dachau.

Dachau was a forced labor complex at which over 25,000 people were killed, either through active execution or starvation. Men, women and children were detained at this facility, and by and large they were political dissidents, almost universally non-combatants. Those held at Dachau were pressed into a forced labor program to produce war materials for the German military effort, they were underfed, underclothed, housed in substandard facilities and routinely abused and killed by the Nazis.

Guantanamo Bay has held no more than a thousand detainees, a large portion of whom have been released or transferred to other facilities. It has held detainees seized abroad due to suspicion of involvement with a specific group (although there have been a significantly substantial number of individuals who are innocent detained there by mistake). Housing is on par with the average federal prison in the United States, food is certified by the Red Cross to be nutritious, and prepared in accordance with Islamic dietary strictures and access to religious and educational materials is present. The only recorded The detainees spend most of their time sitting in their cells twiddling their thumbs, with daily exercise and social time. While it is likely that abuses have occurred at Guantanamo, they are nowhere near the scale of what happened at even the smallest Konzentrationzlager.

A link on the matter, u[rl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp]Schaetzlein.[/url]

Should the detention camp at Guantanamo be closed? God, yes. Is it in any way comparable to a Concentration camp or a Gulag? No, that's ridiculous.

This be a free internets, mistah. Mah cheese dun squats wherever it pleases.

http://www.dottyparker.com/blog/images/angry-hobo.jpg

:eek:

:D:D

I'm speechless, I just can't top that post :fluffle:

lmao what a stupid thread (barr the free cheese that rocks)

Waco ... if the nut jobs had sent the children to safety when they started stockpiling weapons (obviously knowing what the outcome would be and preparing for it?) then the kids wouldnt have been hurt (in the ensuing fight)

Gauntanamo SUCKS big time and is basically illegal .... but most of Europe has allowed the US to trasport prisoners illegally through it
and to be honest most of the people in there will have done something .... nice to see you making a protest about christian aid workers and people that are trying to help rebuild Iraq Afagn etc having there heads chopped off and then broadcast all over the world (ah i guess them being dead means you dont have to worry or make stupid threads)

Gah i hate idiots that think its all the doing of one side ... it takes two sides to have a fight

I want some free cheese!

Unless you live in Philadelphia.

:cool:

When I read the opening post, I knew this was going to be the cheesiest thread ever.

Turns out it was a self-fulfilling prophesy. :)

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/finger.jpg

Can't have mah free cheese!

When I read the opening post, I knew this was going to be the cheesiest thread ever.

Turns out it was a self-fulfilling prophesy. :)

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/finger.jpg

Can't have mah free cheese!

Nacho cheese, mah cheese!

Can't have mah free cheese!
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u275/Gravlen/NSG/free_cheese.jpg (http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5760/m20070910cv0.gif)

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u275/Gravlen/NSG/free_cheese.jpg (http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5760/m20070910cv0.gif)

I got thumbprints on my screen. :(

Nacho cheese, mah cheese!

Nacho!!! (http://www.weine.se/images/bilder/orginal/nacho_libre.jpg)

I got thumbprints on my screen. :(

Try clicking it with your mouse.

I.e. throw your mouse at the monitor. (Less thumbprints too ;) )

I guess nobody cares about the attrocities carried out by the Federal Government at Camp Douglas at Chicago, Illinois during the American Civil War. Camp Douglas had a higher death rate that the better known Confederate POW camp at Andersonville, Georgia. Ooops, I forgot; My southern ancestors were 'evil' slave-owners who deserved their fate. Never mind that most of the southern soldiers were fighting for their independence, history is written by the victors.

And they wanted to be independent from the Northern states so they could do what again?

As far as the atrocities committed at Camp Douglas, the last time I studied the civil war was in high school and they didn't cover them. So I think part of the reason people don't care about them is because they've never heard of them.

Try clicking it with your mouse.

I.e. throw your mouse at the monitor. (Less thumbprints too ;) )

I clicked. I wish I didn't. :p

I clicked. I wish I didn't. :p

BWAHAHA! You fell for my trap, and were forced to observe the cheesy joke inside!

Many rodents died to bring you this information...

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u275/Gravlen/NSG/630.jpg

We have mice, but they don't like our cheese. Currently they quite the penchant for lasagne verde sheets :confused:

I must say this thread has restored my faith in NSG.

And my craving for cheese, that is also restored.

Personally, I like my cheese toasted. These American bread-crumb-encrusted "cheese sticks" just don't cut it.

Yes, it is easier to make a fool of yourselves by going on and on about cheese instead of facing the issue:

government of the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico went in to slaughter the children.

And succeeded.

Yes, it is easier to make a fool of yourselves by going on and on about cheese instead of facing the issue:

government of the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico went in to slaughter the children.

And succeeded.

:eek:

You...have...ENLIGHTENED me!
Opened my eyes to the greatest Truth!

I once was lost and now am found.
All praise Miodrag Superior the Superior!

Harbinger of Justice, Peace, Equality, and Cheeseless Truth for the Lactose Intolerant!

Yes, it is easier to make a fool of yourselves by going on and on about cheese instead of facing the issue:

government of the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico went in to slaughter the children.

And succeeded.

We're talking about cheese, because we're trying to make your thread interesting. Your obvious trolling, flaming and flamebaiting are not something that will keep our attention, while talking about stuff like grilled cheese sandwiches, pizza, and other cheese related foods will.

Yes, it is easier to make a fool of yourselves by going on and on about cheese instead of facing the issue:

government of the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico went in to slaughter the children.

And succeeded.

I'll be honest, I read your OP and I thought, 'Cheese'.

The rest you know. :)

:eek:

You...have...ENLIGHTENED me!
Opened my eyes to the greatest Truth!

I once was lost and now am found.
All praise Miodrag Superior the Superior!

Harbinger of Justice, Peace, Equality, and Cheeseless Truth for the Lactose Intolerant!

While I am sure it was not a revelation for you, it certainly is what you ahve swept under the carpet, along with many other issues, and there is a hump there that will make you fall flat on your face. And, being as philantropic as I am, I am helping you unload the pile of garbage you collected, such as respect for the United Statelets, and dump it in the waste bin of history.

While I am sure it was not a revelation for you, it certainly is what you ahve swept under the carpet, along with many other issues, and there is a hump there that will make you fall flat on your face. And, being as philantropic as I am, I am helping you unload the pile of garbage you collected, such as respect for the United Statelets, and dump it in the waste bin of history.

/metaphor

At least that bridge keeps the rain off your head.

While I am sure it was not a revelation for you, it certainly is what you ahve swept under the carpet, along with many other issues, and there is a hump there that will make you fall flat on your face. And, being as philantropic as I am, I am helping you unload the pile of garbage you collected, such as respect for the United Statelets, and dump it in the waste bin of history.

Regardless of your feelings toward the country, you have to respect United States Government Cheese. It melted quite nicely. *nod*

Yes, it is easier to make a fool of yourselves by going on and on about cheese instead of facing the issue:

government of the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico went in to slaughter the children.

And succeeded.

One wonders, does Rennet from babies make good cheese?

We have mice, but they don't like our cheese. Currently they quite the penchant for lasagne verde sheets :confused:

Add peanut butter. Mice who don't like cheese totally like peanut butter.

Or syrup, but that gets messy.

Regardless of your feelings toward the country, you have to respect United States Government Cheese. It melted quite nicely. *nod*

I just wish it came in different shapes, instead of the square log it is now. Wouldn't gub'ment cheese be a hell of a lot cooler if it came in the shape of a duck, a sailboat (schooner), the moon, etc?

While I am sure it was not a revelation for you, it certainly is what you ahve swept under the carpet, along with many other issues, and there is a hump there that will make you fall flat on your face. And, being as philantropic as I am, I am helping you unload the pile of garbage you collected, such as respect for the United Statelets, and dump it in the waste bin of history.

Swept it under the carpet? It was one of the most notable events of the 90s, pretty much everyone actually associates the town of Waco with the incident, Koresh is the 'go to' guy when you want to reference cult leaders, trumping even Jim Jones. It's the darkest mark on Janet Reno's career, it's the most prominent criticism of the ATF and over-use of powers. Did you honestly think you were telling us about this for the first time?

You have a strange definition of 'swept under the carpet.'

I just wish it came in different shapes, instead of the square log it is now. Wouldn't gub'ment cheese be a hell of a lot cooler if it came in the shape of a duck, a sailboat (schooner), the moon, etc?

You have to take away the part of the block that isn't the duck.



...and melt it.

You have to take away the part of the block that isn't the duck.



...and melt it.

Melt the duck, or melt the part I had to take away?

mmm.... cheese duck.

edit: Or is it duck cheese? :confused:

You have to take away the part of the block that isn't the duck.



...and melt it.

...and then pour it into a mold to make new cheese shapes!

Brilliant!

The Children of Waco
1993 Siege Survivors Grapple With Parents' Deaths

ABC News, Primetime/April 17, 2003

The children in David Koresh's Branch Davidian cult grew up believing they would die young - and on April 19, 1993, 25 of them did, perishing with their parents when the cult's complex outside Waco, Texas went up in flames.

"He never was very specific, but at some point we were going to have to die for him," said Kiri Jewell, whose mother Sherri was one of Koresh's 20 "wives." "I knew we weren't going to be around for very long. I didn't expect to live past 12."

Jewell was lucky: she escaped from the cult the year before the siege, when her father, who was divorced from her mother, refused to let her go back to Waco after a visit. Her mother stayed with the Davidians and died in the fire.

To mark the 10th anniversary of the fire, which broke out after federal agents stormed the compound following a 51-day siege, Primetime's Charles Gibson spoke to seven of the children who lived with the Davidians, including 14-year-old Sky Okimoto, Koresh's own son. All of them lost one or both parents in the fire.
Harsh Discipline and Child Brides

The children remember a close-knit community in which they were not allowed to have contact with anyone outside the cult. They were taught that there were only two types of people: "good" people who were inside the cult, and "bad" people who were everyone else.

During Koresh's Bible study sessions - which could be as long as 12 hours - he preached a vision of violent confrontation with the government. He taught his followers that his mission was to lead them into the final battle that would end the world and take them onto eternal glory. The members understood that meant they would die.

The children were taught the morbid message too. They used to chant: "We are soldiers in the army. We've got to fight. Some day we have to die. We have to hold up the blood-stained banner. We have to hold it up until we die."

They were kept in line by a wooden paddle known as "the helper," and faced severe beatings for minor infractions like spilling a glass of milk. Dana Okimoto, Sky's mother, remembers being so under Koresh's control that she beat Sky until he bled.

Koresh ordered the men in the cult to be celibate and took some of their wives and daughters to be his own wives. Jewell became Koresh's youngest "bride" when she was just 10, and would later testify in Congress that Koresh molested her at a motel. She told Primetime she was not upset at the time. "I had been trained from a very early age that this was a good thing," she said.
The Initial Assault

The siege began on Feb. 28, 1993, when 70 agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms arrived to search the compound for illegal weapons.

A shootout broke out, and Jaunessa Wendel, then 8, remembers the window above her 5-month-old brother's crib suddenly shattering. The next thing she knew, her mother, a former police officer, herded her and her three siblings into the hallway then rushed back to the bedroom window to return the ATF's fire.

Wendel, now 18, says she understands her mother's urge to defend her children. "What is her reaction going to be other than to protect us in the best way she knows how?" she asked Primetime .

Two hours later, when Koresh gave agents permission to enter the compound and evacuate their casualties, four ATF agents and six Davidians were dead, including Jaydean Wendel. The adults covered her body with a blanket, but Jaunessa knew it was her mom.
An Open Phone Line

Next there began a standoff as FBI negotiators manned an open phone line to Koresh, trying to find a peaceful outcome, especially for the 46 children trapped inside. "The kids were our primary focus," Byron Sage, the chief FBI negotiator, told Primetime.

Sage's team agreed to allow Koresh to broadcast a two-minute mini-sermon on the radio each time he released two children.

Inside the compound, it was Koresh who chose which kids should go. Jaunessa Wendel remembers not wanting to be picked. "As far as I knew the bad guys were still out there, the ones who had shot and killed my mother," she said.

But she and her siblings - 5-year-old Tamarae, 4-year-old Landon, and Patron, the baby - were among the first chosen. She remembers her father Mark saying good-bye and telling her he would see her soon. The Davidian children understood that meant they'd be seeing their parents in heaven.
Opening Up to Strangers

A total of 21 children were released in the first five days. They were all taken to Methodist Children's Home in Waco.

Psychiatrist Bruce Perry, who volunteered to help counsel the children, said that all of them had seen blood, and more than half had seen a dead body. "Their whole world was completely shattered. They were in the care of people who they didn't trust. And they had no idea what was going to happen," he said.

According to Perry, Koresh had threatened the children that if they cooperated with the "Babylonians" he would find them and kill them.

The children spoke about their parents as if they were already dead. On a videotape Perry made, Jaunessa's little brother Landon, then 4, explained how their parents would die in the first battle, but then come back as angels and defeat their enemies: "The bad guys win. Then the good guys win after them because they get up to the angels and burn the bad guys."

The children were reluctant to open up to the strangers at first, but soon began to confide in them, saying the Davidians were planning to die in the compound.

Perry didn't believe them at first, until Jaunessa drew a picture that brought it home: the picture showed the compound engulfed in flames, with steps leading up to heaven. When he asked her what the picture meant, she told him, "You'll find out."

It took three weeks to get the children's heart rate down to normal, Perry said. They stayed at the children's home for two months.
Watching the End of Their World

Back at the compound, after 51 days of waiting, the federal agents finally made a move, breaking in with tanks and tear gas.

They were hoping the parents would feel forced to leave the compound out of concern for their children's welfare. "That's what we banked on, and we were wrong," said Sage.

A fire broke out and swept through the compound, killing all but nine of the Davidians inside. Fifty adults and 25 children died.

Many of the children who had gotten out saw the whole thing on television.

"I was horrified that a building could catch fire that quickly," says Sky Okimoto, who was just 3. His mother remembers him watching the television and asking, "Is my daddy dead?"

Brad Borst, who spent his teenage years with the Davidians but left when he turned 18 a few months before the siege, was watching too, knowing his mother Mary Jean was inside. "I watched my mother die, on television.... It was very difficult," he said.

"I didn't react like a normal child would.... I was very calm," remembers Joann Vaega, who lost both of her parents, Neal and Margarida, in the fire.

After losing their mother in the initial shootout, the Wendel children lost their father, Mark, in the fire. "It's hard having that as your most distinct memory: of your parent being killed, being attacked. That that's your best memory of your parents," said Jaunessa.

"There is still that emptiness of not having, or knowing, your real parents," added her brother Landon.
Anger at the Government

FBI wiretaps inside the compound suggested that the Davidians set the fire intentionally. But the children remain angry at the federal agents, who they believe share part of the blame.

All of the children Primetime spoke to said they want to hear an official acknowledgement of their loss from the government.

"If they could make an apology to families involved and the lives that were lost, I could forgive them. And I think others could too," said Borst.

Sage agreed to meet with the children - the first time anyone involved in the siege had done so. He was blunt, telling them he did not admire their parents because they were involved with a group that violently resisted the ATF's lawful attempt to carry out a search.

Sage said he supported the decisions that were made, and that he believes the federal agents did all they could to avoid loss of life. "I honestly feel this would have ended tragically no matter what," he told the children.

But, he said, the government made a mistake in underestimating Koresh and the control he had over his followers, and in the end, he admitted, the operation was a failure. "For that I think everybody that was involved will forever regret it," he said.

The children do not blame their parents. Borst, now married with two children of his own, still misses "the great mother that she was."

And although it was her mother who drove her to the motel where Koresh molested her, Kiri Jewell says she still adores her. "I love her and she messed up. What more is there for me to say? I forgive her," she told Primetime.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco315.html

-Snip-

Many scientists believe that David Koresh's mental condition was brought about by severe calcium deficiency. *nod*

The Children of Waco
1993 Siege Survivors Grapple With Parents' Deaths

ABC News, Primetime/April 17, 2003

The children in David Koresh's Branch Davidian cult grew up believing they would die young - and on April 19, 1993, 25 of them did, perishing with their parents when the cult's complex outside Waco, Texas went up in flames.

"He never was very specific, but at some point we were going to have to die for him," said Kiri Jewell, whose mother Sherri was one of Koresh's 20 "wives." "I knew we weren't going to be around for very long. I didn't expect to live past 12."

Jewell was lucky: she escaped from the cult the year before the siege, when her father, who was divorced from her mother, refused to let her go back to Waco after a visit. Her mother stayed with the Davidians and died in the fire.

To mark the 10th anniversary of the fire, which broke out after federal agents stormed the compound following a 51-day siege, Primetime's Charles Gibson spoke to seven of the children who lived with the Davidians, including 14-year-old Sky Okimoto, Koresh's own son. All of them lost one or both parents in the fire.
Harsh Discipline and Child Brides

The children remember a close-knit community in which they were not allowed to have contact with anyone outside the cult. They were taught that there were only two types of people: "good" people who were inside the cult, and "bad" people who were everyone else.

During Koresh's Bible study sessions - which could be as long as 12 hours - he preached a vision of violent confrontation with the government. He taught his followers that his mission was to lead them into the final battle that would end the world and take them onto eternal glory. The members understood that meant they would die.

The children were taught the morbid message too. They used to chant: "We are soldiers in the army. We've got to fight. Some day we have to die. We have to hold up the blood-stained banner. We have to hold it up until we die."

They were kept in line by a wooden paddle known as "the helper," and faced severe beatings for minor infractions like spilling a glass of milk. Dana Okimoto, Sky's mother, remembers being so under Koresh's control that she beat Sky until he bled.

Koresh ordered the men in the cult to be celibate and took some of their wives and daughters to be his own wives. Jewell became Koresh's youngest "bride" when she was just 10, and would later testify in Congress that Koresh molested her at a motel. She told Primetime she was not upset at the time. "I had been trained from a very early age that this was a good thing," she said.
The Initial Assault

The siege began on Feb. 28, 1993, when 70 agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms arrived to search the compound for illegal weapons.

A shootout broke out, and Jaunessa Wendel, then 8, remembers the window above her 5-month-old brother's crib suddenly shattering. The next thing she knew, her mother, a former police officer, herded her and her three siblings into the hallway then rushed back to the bedroom window to return the ATF's fire.

Wendel, now 18, says she understands her mother's urge to defend her children. "What is her reaction going to be other than to protect us in the best way she knows how?" she asked Primetime .

Two hours later, when Koresh gave agents permission to enter the compound and evacuate their casualties, four ATF agents and six Davidians were dead, including Jaydean Wendel. The adults covered her body with a blanket, but Jaunessa knew it was her mom.
An Open Phone Line

Next there began a standoff as FBI negotiators manned an open phone line to Koresh, trying to find a peaceful outcome, especially for the 46 children trapped inside. "The kids were our primary focus," Byron Sage, the chief FBI negotiator, told Primetime.

Sage's team agreed to allow Koresh to broadcast a two-minute mini-sermon on the radio each time he released two children.

Inside the compound, it was Koresh who chose which kids should go. Jaunessa Wendel remembers not wanting to be picked. "As far as I knew the bad guys were still out there, the ones who had shot and killed my mother," she said.

But she and her siblings - 5-year-old Tamarae, 4-year-old Landon, and Patron, the baby - were among the first chosen. She remembers her father Mark saying good-bye and telling her he would see her soon. The Davidian children understood that meant they'd be seeing their parents in heaven.
Opening Up to Strangers

A total of 21 children were released in the first five days. They were all taken to Methodist Children's Home in Waco.

Psychiatrist Bruce Perry, who volunteered to help counsel the children, said that all of them had seen blood, and more than half had seen a dead body. "Their whole world was completely shattered. They were in the care of people who they didn't trust. And they had no idea what was going to happen," he said.

According to Perry, Koresh had threatened the children that if they cooperated with the "Babylonians" he would find them and kill them.

The children spoke about their parents as if they were already dead. On a videotape Perry made, Jaunessa's little brother Landon, then 4, explained how their parents would die in the first battle, but then come back as angels and defeat their enemies: "The bad guys win. Then the good guys win after them because they get up to the angels and burn the bad guys."

The children were reluctant to open up to the strangers at first, but soon began to confide in them, saying the Davidians were planning to die in the compound.

Perry didn't believe them at first, until Jaunessa drew a picture that brought it home: the picture showed the compound engulfed in flames, with steps leading up to heaven. When he asked her what the picture meant, she told him, "You'll find out."

It took three weeks to get the children's heart rate down to normal, Perry said. They stayed at the children's home for two months.
Watching the End of Their World

Back at the compound, after 51 days of waiting, the federal agents finally made a move, breaking in with tanks and tear gas.

They were hoping the parents would feel forced to leave the compound out of concern for their children's welfare. "That's what we banked on, and we were wrong," said Sage.

A fire broke out and swept through the compound, killing all but nine of the Davidians inside. Fifty adults and 25 children died.

Many of the children who had gotten out saw the whole thing on television.

"I was horrified that a building could catch fire that quickly," says Sky Okimoto, who was just 3. His mother remembers him watching the television and asking, "Is my daddy dead?"

Brad Borst, who spent his teenage years with the Davidians but left when he turned 18 a few months before the siege, was watching too, knowing his mother Mary Jean was inside. "I watched my mother die, on television.... It was very difficult," he said.

"I didn't react like a normal child would.... I was very calm," remembers Joann Vaega, who lost both of her parents, Neal and Margarida, in the fire.

After losing their mother in the initial shootout, the Wendel children lost their father, Mark, in the fire. "It's hard having that as your most distinct memory: of your parent being killed, being attacked. That that's your best memory of your parents," said Jaunessa.

"There is still that emptiness of not having, or knowing, your real parents," added her brother Landon.
Anger at the Government

FBI wiretaps inside the compound suggested that the Davidians set the fire intentionally. But the children remain angry at the federal agents, who they believe share part of the blame.

All of the children Primetime spoke to said they want to hear an official acknowledgement of their loss from the government.

"If they could make an apology to families involved and the lives that were lost, I could forgive them. And I think others could too," said Borst.

Sage agreed to meet with the children - the first time anyone involved in the siege had done so. He was blunt, telling them he did not admire their parents because they were involved with a group that violently resisted the ATF's lawful attempt to carry out a search.

Sage said he supported the decisions that were made, and that he believes the federal agents did all they could to avoid loss of life. "I honestly feel this would have ended tragically no matter what," he told the children.

But, he said, the government made a mistake in underestimating Koresh and the control he had over his followers, and in the end, he admitted, the operation was a failure. "For that I think everybody that was involved will forever regret it," he said.

The children do not blame their parents. Borst, now married with two children of his own, still misses "the great mother that she was."

And although it was her mother who drove her to the motel where Koresh molested her, Kiri Jewell says she still adores her. "I love her and she messed up. What more is there for me to say? I forgive her," she told Primetime.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco315.html

Hey, that kind of blows your "theory" that the US government murdered those people, right out of the water.

Now, back on topic, LG, I believe it would be cheese duck, as the duck is made out of cheese (not the other way around).

<snip>tl;dr;ec (eating cheese)

Many scientists believe that David Koresh's mental condition was brought about by severe calcium deficiency. *nod*

See, if he'd just had more dairy products (like cheese), this never would have happened. :D

Miodrag Superior, I really think you should change the name of this thread to "The Cheese Appreciation Thread". It would be more fitting of the topic that's been discussed so far. :D

Hey, that kind of blows your "theory" that the US government murdered those people, right out of the water.

Now, back on topic, LG, I believe it would be cheese duck, as the duck is made out of cheese (not the other way around).

But a cheese steak is made mostly of steak. Would a cheese duck be duck on a bun smothered in cheese? ... Actually, that sounds kind of good.

Melt the duck, or melt the part I had to take away?

Well, eventually both. But I like the idea of taking the non-duck parts and molding them into cheese ducklings.

But a cheese steak is made mostly of steak. Would a cheese duck be duck on a bun smothered in cheese? ... Actually, that sounds kind of good.

No, that would be a cheesy duck.

Well, eventually both. But I like the idea of taking the non-duck parts and molding them into cheese ducklings.

Mmmmm, cheese ducklings.

*drools*

Was it necessary to slaughter those children at Waco?

Perhaps David Koresh overstepped his First amendment rights

The Bill of Rights is bullshit. The government has no place in handing out "rights" because, by defining what "rights" a people have, you implicitly throw unmentioned "rights" to the dogs (i.e., judges). Do I have the "right" to harm myself with drugs? Do I have the "right" to eat food with trans fat? Do I have the "right" to engage in homosexual intercourse? And how much "free speech" am I allowed to have? It's all up to the arbitrary decisions of the judicial system, because these rights are either not mentioned or too unspecific. In fact, they COULD NOT be specific enough to clearly define all instances to which a "right" may apply, because new instances are being brought up all the time.

In essence, "rights" are but a "spook;" a true opiate of the masses in that they may make us feel secure, but at the end of the day they have no real-world applicability.

But a cheese steak is made mostly of steak. Would a cheese duck be duck on a bun smothered in cheese? ... Actually, that sounds kind of good.

Lunatic Goofballs just invented a new sandwich!!! I want one...

The Bill of Rights is bullshit. The government has no place in handing out "rights" because, by defining what "rights" a people have, you implicitly throw unmentioned "rights" to the dogs (i.e., judges). Do I have the "right" to harm myself with drugs? Do I have the "right" to eat food with trans fat? Do I have the "right" to engage in homosexual intercourse? And how much "free speech" am I allowed to have? It's all up to the arbitrary decisions of the judicial system, because these rights are either not mentioned or too unspecific. In fact, they COULD NOT be specific enough to clearly define all instances to which a "right" may apply, because new instances are being brought up all the time.

In essence, "rights" are but a "spook;" a true opiate of the masses in that they may make us feel secure, but at the end of the day they have no real-world applicability.


You have the right to eat cheese. *nod*

Was it necessary to slaughter those children at Waco?

Perhaps David Koresh overstepped his First amendment rights -- though it is debatable. But THE CHILDREN??? Why did the government of the United Statelets murder them?

As for Guantanamo, it is outrageous. Most of us in Europe would never do anything like that any more. True, we had concentration camps like Guantanamo in the 1940s (Dachau, Mauthausen)* but we've matured since.

Washington D.C. took the same stand towards Firts Nations in the second half of the 19th century (with concentartion camps known as "reserves"/"reservations") as it takes today towards "enemy combatants".

The worst part of it all was not those naked Arab men in the Middle East tortured by that Yank woman and Yank man who were getting pre-sex excitement out of torturing the prisoners (forbidden by Geneva Convention).

No, the worst part was when the Yank Justice Dept loudspeaker (aka "spokesperson") said that Gitmo fell under the jurisdiction of the Cuban Supreme Court and all complaints should be addressed there.

Abhorrent level of hypocrisy.

* Auschwitz in the 1940s was worse than Guantanamo is today. Dachau and Mauthausen were about the same.

Of course it wasn't. We saw a full scale government shake down . ... 'live' on TV. Director Janet Reno.

You have the right to eat cheese. *nod*

And I (ab)use that right on a daily basis.

Was it necessary to slaughter those children at Waco?

Perhaps David Koresh overstepped his First amendment rights -- though it is debatable. But THE CHILDREN??? Why did the government of the United Statelets murder them?

As I remember, they perished in an accidental fire. Most wouldn't come out of the compound, while firefighters weren't allowed to go inside for fear the cult members would shoot them. So basically, it was a catastrophe, and not really intentional.

I have no contest about Guantanamo Bay, though.

Lunatic Goofballs just invented a new sandwich!!! I want one...

The cheese duck. But what city do we name it after? Philly has the cheese steak.

Hmm....

As I remember, they perished in an accidental fire. Most wouldn't come out of the compound, while firefighters weren't allowed to go inside for fear the cult members would shoot them. So basically, it was a catastrophe, and not really intentional.

I have no contest about Guantanamo Bay, though.

*Sick* You gotta be kidding me. If you were too young to understand what was going on then (and have yet to look in to it) .. I understand. Other wise.. 'brick'.

The cheese duck. But what city do we name it after? Philly has the cheese steak.

Hmm....

Anaheim

Anaheim

Then it becomes a Disney product...


...and I'll think of Emelio Estevas when I eat even if I can't spell his name.

And that's not good.

Waco.

A Waco cheese duck. :)

Waco.

A Waco cheese duck. :)

Genius! My god this thread actually generated some quality! Thank you MS!!!

You don't get to hear that sentence very often...

Is that a 'stuffed' duck?

I always read threads backwards, partly to see where a conversation has gone so I can track back and see how it evolved from, say, a thread on Guantanamo/David Koresh - which is bizarre in itself - to the correct name for a duck cheese sandwich.

However, I see on this one that LG hijacked it from the very first post.

How about Manitoba then? I don't even know where Manitoba is but for some reason I relate it to ducks.

As far as I'm concerned, this thread was cheese from post 1. *nod*

Then it becomes a Disney product...


...and I'll think of Emelio Estevas when I eat even if I can't spell his name.

And that's not good.

I always read threads backwards, partly to see where a conversation has gone so I can track back and see how it evolved from, say, a thread on Guantanamo/David Koresh - which is bizarre in itself - to the correct name for a duck cheese sandwich.

However, I see on this one that LG hijacked it from the very first post.

How about Manitoba then? I don't even know where Manitoba is but for some reason I relate it to ducks.

EDIT: Ah, I see Waco takes the trophy.

EDIT EDIT: Ah, Manitoba is a province of Canada - who knew...or cared?

As far as I'm concerned, this thread was cheese from post 1. *nod*


Cheese meaning bull shit? You honestly don't think some shady shit was going on when you saw the ATF (plus some) bombarding into Waco?

Cheese meaning bull shit? You honestly don't think some shady shit was going on when you saw the ATF (plus some) bombarding into Waco?

Cheesy (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheesy)

Cheese as in the cheesiest attempt at a U.S.A. bashing thread I've seen in a very long time.

There's very little to argue about Waco. Even under the glossiest of perspectives, it was a clusterfuck. But let's face it: What government hasn't had it's clusterfucks? It's questionable, almost sinister operations? It's a complete waste of all our time to try to reason with an obvious troll. So I took a cheesy topic and made it a cheese topic. :)

Cheesy (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheesy)

Cheese as in the cheesiest attempt at a U.S.A. bashing thread I've seen in a very long time.

There's very little to argue about Waco. Even under the glossiest of perspectives, it was a clusterfuck. But let's face it: What government hasn't had it's clusterfucks? It's questionable, almost sinister operations? It's a complete waste of all our time to try to reason with an obvious troll. So I took a cheesy topic and made it a cheese topic. :)

Oh ok. I'm sorry.

I didn't even see the troll. I paid attention to those posters I knew. And I very much worry about clusterfcuks. Was years ago, but even then it was freakin scary. Now adays .. no matter what country.. we gotta peak a ear.

As for Guantanamo, it is outrageous. Most of us in Europe would never do anything like that any more. True, we had concentration camps like Guantanamo in the 1940s (Dachau, Mauthausen)* but we've matured since.

* Auschwitz in the 1940s was worse than Guantanamo is today. Dachau and Mauthausen were about the same.
Are you serious? You can't possibly beleive that....

Hey, that kind of blows your "theory" that the US government murdered those people, right out of the water.

Actually, no -- it proves my theory that promotion of an alleged singe possible "truth" as well as censorship are booming in the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico.

Actually, no -- it proves my theory that promotion of an alleged singe possible "truth" as well as censorship are booming in the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico.

You look hungry. Have a Waco cheese duck. :)

Actually, no -- it proves my theory that promotion of an alleged singe possible "truth" as well as censorship are booming in the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico.

Silly silly Miodrag Superior.

Irish Cheddar is much more interesting than the OP.

Has anyone else ever tried it? It's so ridiculously sharp, but so good. It doesn't make it more than two or three days in my fridge because it gets gobbled up too fast. If only it was free.

So what is Government Cheese?

You're bringing up Waco? WTF? All the shit that's gone on the last few years and you reach back for that silliness? I don't know what passes for trolling in old Europe, but you're going to have do much better than that to bait Americans.

He is just released from some psychiatric clinic.
His 'news' is in his perception real news.

But with a little help from our Lithium friends, he will survive.

Free cheese? Sounds communist...

So what is Government Cheese?

Free cheese, provided by the government.

So what is Government Cheese?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_cheese

I ate my share of government cheese in the early eighties. It was pretty good. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_cheese

I ate my share of government cheese in the early eighties. It was pretty good. :)

Wait, it's not something you made up? Wow.

Wait, it's not something you made up? Wow.

See? Any government that gives away free cheese can't be all bad. :)

See? Any government that gives away free cheese can't be all bad. :)

I will keep this in mind in all future 'lol, amerikkka has teh fail' threads.

I will keep this in mind in all future 'lol, amerikkka has teh fail' threads.

...except it's pasteurized process American cheese, which, given the criteria suggesting G'namo is the same as Dachau, places the free giveaway to poor people up along with Pol Pot in terms of government sponsored genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_cheese

I ate my share of government cheese in the early eighties. It was pretty good. :)

Well I never knew the US had a cheese based social security system.

...except it's pasteurized process American cheese, which, given the criteria suggesting G'namo is the same as Dachau, places the free giveaway to poor people up along with Pol Pot in terms of government sponsored genocide.

Still, at least it's free. If they don't eat it, they can always have cheese fights.

...except it's pasteurized process American cheese, which, given the criteria suggesting G'namo is the same as Dachau, places the free giveaway to poor people up along with Pol Pot in terms of government sponsored genocide.

It wasn't so bad. Especially when you're ten. *nod*

Well I never knew the US had a cheese based social security system.

http://blogsap.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/nbc_the_more_you_know.jpg

It wasn't so bad. Especially when you're ten. *nod*

Wait - you're putting yourself forward as a positive result - but you're a madman :)

Wait - you're putting yourself forward as a positive result - but you're a madman :)

You can't blame the cheese for that.

....wait... can you? :confused:

Well, you can't blame just the cheese. I also grew up near powerlines. *nod*

You can't blame the cheese for that.

....wait... can you? :confused:

Well, you can't blame just the cheese. I also grew up near powerlines. *nod*

'Radioactive cheese turned my son into a raving lunatic!'


Awesome

THe government gave away free cheese in the 1980s and that evens out I think. :)

Ahhh Yes I remember all of the surplus food supplies we had back then, good times, good times. Why where they called mountains or lakes though? I remember getting cheap butter coz of the butter mountain, and even the milk lake(probably caused by that wrinkled old milk stealer, God I can't wait until she dies - party time!).

Well, it's been a long and deeply disturbing thread on so many levels but I think we've come to the reasonable conclusion that a Waco cheese duck sandwich (made with government cheese if possible) is probably the best means of alleviating poverty if not heralding the advent of world peace.

Well, it's been a long and deeply disturbing thread on so many levels but I think we've come to the reasonable conclusion that a Waco cheese duck sandwich (made with government cheese if possible) is probably the best means of alleviating poverty if not heralding the advent of world peace.

I'm just glad we reached that conclusion before I had to delve into cheese sculpture:

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070630/070630_bigCheese_hmed9p.hmedium.jpg

:eek:

I'm just glad we reached that conclusion before I had to delve into cheese sculpture:

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070630/070630_bigCheese_hmed9p.hmedium.jpg

:eek:

He looks like he got into cheese sculpture mainly to eat his own work.

Joseph Beuys used to do sculpture with lard....

Hahahaha, nice turnaround. Reading about cheese is much better than reading about Gitmo/Dachau parallels. :)

He looks like he got into cheese sculpture mainly to eat his own work.

Joseph Beuys used to do sculpture with lard....

He's going to have his Mount Cheesemore and eat it too.

hol·o·caust (hŏl'ə-kôst', hō'lə-) n.

1. Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.
2. a) Holocaust The genocide of European Jews and others by the Nazis during World War II: “Israel emerged from the Holocaust and is defined in relation to that catastrophe” (Emanuel Litvinoff).
b) A massive slaughter: “an important document in the so-far sketchy annals of the Cambodian holocaust” (Rod Nordland).
3. A sacrificial offering that is consumed entirely by flames.


========================================================


... a confused state of negotiations went on for 51 days, ending on April 19, 1993 when the compound burned to the ground, killing Koresh and 74 followers, including 21 children. Although a special investigation by the U.S. Justice Department exonerated the government, the debate over who started the fire goes on.


-----------------

David Koresh (born Vernon Wayne Howell) (August 17, 1959 – April 19, 1993) was the leader of the Branch Davidians religious sect, believing himself to be the final prophet, until a 1993 raid by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and subsequent siege by the Federal Bureau of Investigation ended with the burning of the Branch Davidian ranch. Koresh, 53 adults (including two pregnant women) and 21 children died in the fire.

-----------------------------------

Before the Flames

http://www.alibris.com/search/detail.cfm?chunk=25&mtype=&qisbn=9781885778116&S=R&bid=9275307090&pbest=&pqtynew=&page=1&matches=2&qsort=p

Im getting annoyed at some of these posts that arnt about cheese. Stop jacking the thread!

The US should pray it does not incur the same fate in it's sowing the seeds of present and future vengeance and animosity and thus reaping them in a bitter harvest to come.

The US, and it allies have been sowing the seeds of vengeance since WWII. This is nothing new.

The UK caused all of the problems in the Middle East by drawing the borders along "geographic" lines instead of ethnic, or religious lines.

Get over it people.

9/11 happened because of the failures of the US to attempt to stablize Afghanistan after forcing Russia out. The US meddling in Middle Eastern affairs has created much discontent among the local. Heck, the US financing most South and Central American countries, with an intent to keep European countries from investing in them has created discontent among those countries and has been called "imperialism" by manny.

The fact is, that no matter what the US does, someone will have a problem with it. Heck, the US could forgive every dime it has ever loaned to any country and someone would cry foul, and be upset by those actions. It is a simple truth, you can make some of the people happy some of the time.

Get over it.

oddly enough, the longer ago a thing happened, the less outrage there is over it.

go figure.

Yet for some odd reason there are still a lot of people very upset over slavery in the US, and especially the south. Wasn't there recently a bill proposed in Congress to appologize. And there is always the talk of the US needed to pay reparations to those, of their ancestors, that were forced to endure slavery.

This is such an old and lame debate. Again, we just need to move on an live our lives. Stop lingering in the past were nothing can be changed.

hol·o·caust (hŏl'ə-kôst', hō'lə-) n.

1. Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.
2. a) Holocaust The genocide of European Jews and others by the Nazis during World War II: “Israel emerged from the Holocaust and is defined in relation to that catastrophe” (Emanuel Litvinoff).
b) A massive slaughter: “an important document in the so-far sketchy annals of the Cambodian holocaust” (Rod Nordland).
3. A sacrificial offering that is consumed entirely by flames.


========================================================


... a confused state of negotiations went on for 51 days, ending on April 19, 1993 when the compound burned to the ground, killing Koresh and 74 followers, including 21 children. Although a special investigation by the U.S. Justice Department exonerated the government, the debate over who started the fire goes on.


-----------------

David Koresh (born Vernon Wayne Howell) (August 17, 1959 – April 19, 1993) was the leader of the Branch Davidians religious sect, believing himself to be the final prophet, until a 1993 raid by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and subsequent siege by the Federal Bureau of Investigation ended with the burning of the Branch Davidian ranch. Koresh, 53 adults (including two pregnant women) and 21 children died in the fire.

-----------------------------------

Before the Flames

http://www.alibris.com/search/detail.cfm?chunk=25&mtype=&qisbn=9781885778116&S=R&bid=9275307090&pbest=&pqtynew=&page=1&matches=2&qsort=p

OH MY GOOSES, Waco kinda fits the definition for holocaust! That means that the US Government is just as bad a Nazi Germany!


Stop this silliness and talk about cheese, like the rest of us sane people.

Waco kinda fits the definition for holocaust! That means that the US Government is just as bad a Nazi Germany!

Worse, actually.

Worse, actually.

...

You cannot seriously believe that?

Worse, actually.

21 white kids>6 million Jews, gays, gypsies and assorted other untermenschen? Oh MS, you so crazy.

You cannot seriously believe that?

Oh, very much so. Nazi genocide lasted for 12 years. That's pitrtance compared to two centuries (plus) of the genocide within the borders of the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico alone, plus millions slaughtered with radioactive weapons elsewhere: Japan, Iraq, Somalia, Bosnian Serb territory, Serbia, Iraq again...

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&hl=sr&newwindow=1&num=100&btnG=Google+%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%B0&as_epq=depleted+uranium&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=

The US, and it allies have been sowing the seeds of vengeance since WWII. This is nothing new.



Ah, you might be well advised to change that Latin Numeral to an "I"...

hol·o·caust (hŏl'ə-kôst', hō'lə-) n.

1. Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.
2. a) Holocaust The genocide of European Jews and others by the Nazis during World War II: “Israel emerged from the Holocaust and is defined in relation to that catastrophe” (Emanuel Litvinoff).
b) A massive slaughter: “an important document in the so-far sketchy annals of the Cambodian holocaust” (Rod Nordland).
3. A sacrificial offering that is consumed entirely by flames.


========================================================


... a confused state of negotiations went on for 51 days, ending on April 19, 1993 when the compound burned to the ground, killing Koresh and 74 followers, including 21 children. Although a special investigation by the U.S. Justice Department exonerated the government, the debate over who started the fire goes on.


-----------------

David Koresh (born Vernon Wayne Howell) (August 17, 1959 – April 19, 1993) was the leader of the Branch Davidians religious sect, believing himself to be the final prophet, until a 1993 raid by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and subsequent siege by the Federal Bureau of Investigation ended with the burning of the Branch Davidian ranch. Koresh, 53 adults (including two pregnant women) and 21 children died in the fire.

-----------------------------------

Before the Flames

http://www.alibris.com/search/detail.cfm?chunk=25&mtype=&qisbn=9781885778116&S=R&bid=9275307090&pbest=&pqtynew=&page=1&matches=2&qsort=p

Why, yes, words have multiple meanings. Congratulations on grasping this basic linguistic concept!

Oh, and why did you highlight the "Explosives" in the BATF name? The name has everything to do with what the agency regulates, not what the agency uses in its operations. (I mean, seriously, can you imagine if they used alcohol in these sorts of operations, hoo dawg!)

Oh, very much so. Nazi genocide lasted for 12 years. That's pitrtance compared to two centuries (plus) of the genocide within the borders of the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico alone, plus millions slaughtered with radioactive weapons elsewhere: Japan, Iraq, Somalia, Bosnian Serb territory, Serbia, Iraq again...

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&hl=sr&newwindow=1&num=100&btnG=Google+%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%B0&as_epq=depleted+uranium&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=

...

...I see. And how many people have died due to the actions of the United States? Specifically, how many have died from being systematially persecuted, rounded up and sent to concentration camps to die in numerous horrible ways?

The Nisei camps set up by the FDR administration, and the POW camps set up during the American Civil War, are the only vaguely comparable camps, and neither of them were designed as 'death camps', and the death toll is extremely low.

Oh, very much so. Nazi genocide lasted for 12 years. That's pitrtance compared to two centuries (plus) of the genocide within the borders of the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico alone, plus millions slaughtered with radioactive weapons elsewhere: Japan, Iraq, Somalia, Bosnian Serb territory, Serbia, Iraq again...
There is no country by that name. And you're not comparing like with like.

Really, lets get back to cheese, people.

...

...I see. And how many people have died due to the actions of the United States? Specifically, how many have died from being systematially persecuted, rounded up and sent to concentration camps to die in numerous horrible ways?

The routine usage of "depleted" uranium by the US army today, just a few odd decades after the monstrous bombing NOT only of Hiroshima but also Nagasaki -- after it was clear what it did -- has caused death of millions.

Several hundred Italian -- US ally -- soldiers stationed in areas where the US has used "depleted" uranium died of cancer within a few months and the children of the rest have severe degenerative changes in their genetic material.

And that is the "US allies"...

I have never liked the taste of Stilton - it is one cheese I have a real problem with.

I have never liked the taste of Stilton - it is one cheese I have a real problem with.

Yeah, just you stick that tiny protrusion at the end of your neck -- yes, that with handles, or is it ears? attached -- deep up your chute.

The routine usage of "depleted" uranium by the US army today, just a few odd decades after the monstrous bombing NOT only of Hiroshima but also Nagasaki -- after it was clear what it did -- has caused death of millions.

Several hundred Italian -- US ally -- soldiers stationed in areas where the US has used "depleted" uranium died of cancer within a few months and the children of the rest have severe degenerative changes in their genetic material.

And that is the "US allies"...

The use of depleted uranium is deplorable, but the US is not the only nation to use it.

I will ask again: Where has the United States conducted a systematic persecution of ethnic groups, rounded them up in concentration camps and systematically killed them, in the manner of the holocaust conducted by the Third Reich?

That's pitrtance compared to two centuries (plus) of the genocide within the borders of the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico alone, plus millions slaughtered with radioactive weapons elsewhere: Japan, Iraq, Somalia, Bosnian Serb territory, Serbia, Iraq again...


And let keep this in perspective. For the first century or so the senseless slaughter was being performed by English, French, Spanish, and Portuguese citizens.

Oh, and lets not forget about the War for Independence, where Britian was behind the senseless slaughter of women and children with the intention of preventing the local men from rising up against them.

You see these problems are not just problems of the United States, they are problems inhereted from our European ancestors, and their governments. If you are going to be dragging up 200 years of history at least make an effort to not implecate your own country in it.

The US is a child of most every European nation so if you are going back and arguing about "two centuries (plus) of the genocide within the borders of the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico alone" at least make sure you are point the finger at all of those responsible.

Yeah, just you stick that tiny protrusion at the end of your neck -- yes, that with handles, or is it ears? attached -- deep up your chute.

Awww now you have hurt my feelings.

The routine usage of "depleted" uranium by the US army today, just a few odd decades after the monstrous bombing NOT only of Hiroshima but also Nagasaki -- after it was clear what it did -- has caused death of millions.

Several hundred Italian -- US ally -- soldiers stationed in areas where the US has used "depleted" uranium died of cancer within a few months and the children of the rest have severe degenerative changes in their genetic material.

And that is the "US allies"...

Amusing, since depleted uranium is regularly used as radiation shielding for medical equipment, and is a key component in radiation shielding for containers carrying radioactive materials. Oh, and that it's used in aircraft manufacturing as a counterweight.

Was it necessary to slaughter those children at Waco?

Perhaps David Koresh overstepped his First amendment rights -- though it is debatable. But THE CHILDREN??? Why did the government of the United Statelets murder them?

As for Guantanamo, it is outrageous. Most of us in Europe would never do anything like that any more. True, we had concentration camps like Guantanamo in the 1940s (Dachau, Mauthausen)* but we've matured since.

Washington D.C. took the same stand towards Firts Nations in the second half of the 19th century (with concentartion camps known as "reserves"/"reservations") as it takes today towards "enemy combatants".

The worst part of it all was not those naked Arab men in the Middle East tortured by that Yank woman and Yank man who were getting pre-sex excitement out of torturing the prisoners (forbidden by Geneva Convention).

No, the worst part was when the Yank Justice Dept loudspeaker (aka "spokesperson") said that Gitmo fell under the jurisdiction of the Cuban Supreme Court and all complaints should be addressed there.

Abhorrent level of hypocrisy.

* Auschwitz in the 1940s was worse than Guantanamo is today. Dachau and Mauthausen were about the same.

Not this shit again.

It isn't murder if you're told to leave/come out/surrender and you reply with weapons fire. Those people who kept their children with them killed those children. The government isn't blameless, but it isn't murder if you're warned constantly and told to give up, and you reply with bullets.

The US is a child of most every European nation so if you are going back and arguing about "two centuries (plus) of the genocide within the borders of the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico alone" at least make sure you are point the finger at all of those responsible.

There has been no state-organised genocide in any country in the Western henmisphere (Eastern from here in China) other than the US. Sure, occupiers have brought diseases and have treated local population harshly in Spanish possessions -- less so in the Portuguese ones and almost not at all in French colonies (which is why French Guyanna is today the only territory in America that is a full member of the EU, as a part of French soil).

Depleted uranium was not used 200 years ago, but it is still being used today.

Nagasaki -- the ONLY city in Japan open to Westerners during slef imposed isolation, with churches and Western style buildings -- was destroyed by the US who themselves had noi such buildings. And that was after Hiroshima, when they knew perfectly well that it is impermissible to use such a horrendous weapon.

So, Hiroshima -- maybe they thought it was the only solution (it was NOT), but Nagasaki -- cold blooded premeditated mass murder.

The routine usage of "depleted" uranium by the US army today, just a few odd decades after the monstrous bombing NOT only of Hiroshima but also Nagasaki -- after it was clear what it did -- has caused death of millions.

Several hundred Italian -- US ally -- soldiers stationed in areas where the US has used "depleted" uranium died of cancer within a few months and the children of the rest have severe degenerative changes in their genetic material.

And that is the "US allies"...

Proof, please. Millions? No.

Look, I appreciate your ardor -- some things are abhorrent and need to be exposed and dealt with -- but coming on like a complete conspiracy nut will get you little more than ignored. Especially when your claims are so wildly off base.

I have never liked the taste of Stilton - it is one cheese I have a real problem with.

You know I've never tried that? I lived in snooty area for over a year, I really should have taken advantage of all the available cheese varieties that were there.

Well, where I live now should have a wide variety of cheeses available to me, so there is still time.

America has such advanced cheese technology that citizens in Green Bay wear cheese as headwear. Such is our advanced cheese culture that our youth are taught to "cut the cheese" at a very young age. This tradition causes great merriment and is enjoyed extensively, particularly by males. Now that you realize the power of cheese, you silly European, bow down and admit defeat.

There has been scary trends of the young and uneducated actually lighting the perfectly good "cut cheese" on fire. A complete waste! This population does not know how to appreciate its resources...resources that many other cultures cannot produce in large quantities themselves. A shame.

Amusing, since depleted uranium is regularly used as radiation shielding for medical equipment, and is a key component in radiation shielding for containers carrying radioactive materials. Oh, and that it's used in aircraft manufacturing as a counterweight.

Those inhuman bastards!

And let keep this in perspective. For the first century or so the senseless slaughter was being performed by English, French, Spanish, and Portuguese citizens.

Oh, and lets not forget about the War for Independence, where Britian was behind the senseless slaughter of women and children with the intention of preventing the local men from rising up against them.

You see these problems are not just problems of the United States, they are problems inhereted from our European ancestors, and their governments. If you are going to be dragging up 200 years of history at least make an effort to not implecate your own country in it.

The US is a child of most every European nation so if you are going back and arguing about "two centuries (plus) of the genocide within the borders of the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico alone" at least make sure you are point the finger at all of those responsible.

We can no more escape the responsibility of our history than its formative influence on us.

I agree with you.

There has been no state-organised genocide in any country other than the US. Sure, occupiers have brought diseases and have treated local population harshly in Spanish possessions -- less so in the Portuguese ones and almost not at all in French colonies (which is why French Guyanna is today the only territory in America that is a full member of the EU, as a part of French soil).

Depleted uranium was not used 200 years ago, but it is still being used today.

Nagasaki -- the ONLY city in Japan open to Westerners during slef imposed isolation, with churches and Western style buildings -- was destroyed by the US who themselves had noi such buildings. And that was after Hiroshima, when they knew perfectly well that it is impermissible to use such a horrendous weapon.

So, Hiroshima -- maybe they thought it was the only solution (it was NOT), but Nagasaki -- cold blooded premeditated mass murder.

...

The Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide and the campaign conducted by the Bolshevik Party in the USSR come to mind.

Your point about Nagasaki is confusing - the US certainly did have churches and "western-style" buildings.

You also realize that the French have treated many of the subjects in their colonies as harshly, if not worse so, than the Americans?

There has been no state-organised genocide in any country other than the US. Sure, occupiers have brought diseases and have treated local population harshly in Spanish possessions -- less so in the Portuguese ones and almost not at all in French colonies (which is why French Guyanna is today the only territory in America that is a full member of the EU, as a part of French soil).

Depleted uranium was not used 200 years ago, but it is still being used today.

Nagasaki -- the ONLY city in Japan open to Westerners during slef imposed isolation, with churches and Western style buildings -- was destroyed by the US who themselves had noi such buildings. And that was after Hiroshima, when they knew perfectly well that it is impermissible to use such a horrendous weapon.

So, Hiroshima -- maybe they thought it was the only solution (it was NOT), but Nagasaki -- cold blooded premeditated mass murder.

Uh...ALL war could fall under that definition.

As far as your ludicrous claims about genicide go, I suppose Bosnia, Rwanda, Cambodia, and the whole of the Final Solution were figments? Grow up.

Yes, I have edited and added "in the Western hemisphere" -- it was quite clear that that was what I was replying to (colonies of Spain, France, Portugala nd England).

There has been no state-organised genocide in any country in the Western henmisphere (Eastern from here in China) other than the US. Sure, occupiers have brought diseases and have treated local population harshly in Spanish possessions -- less so in the Portuguese ones and almost not at all in French colonies (which is why French Guyanna is today the only territory in America that is a full member of the EU, as a part of French soil).

Depleted uranium was not used 200 years ago, but it is still being used today.

Nagasaki -- the ONLY city in Japan open to Westerners during slef imposed isolation, with churches and Western style buildings -- was destroyed by the US who themselves had noi such buildings. And that was after Hiroshima, when they knew perfectly well that it is impermissible to use such a horrendous weapon.

So, Hiroshima -- maybe they thought it was the only solution (it was NOT), but Nagasaki -- cold blooded premeditated mass murder.

Huh?

In the US we had a primarily ethnocidal campaign to obliterate the culture of the American Indian, yes, but how can the actions of the Spanish, Portuguese, British, Dutch and French not be counted as such simply because they're actions that occurred abroad from their home country?

More than that, last I checked the US had plenty of churches and fancy buildings in 1945.

* Auschwitz in the 1940s was worse than Guantanamo is today. Dachau and Mauthausen were about the same.

I actually got through the rest of your post with an intent to whole heartedly reply, but here is the exact point where I decided not to. Instead I'm going to conserve energy by simply saying: I disagree with you. If you ever find the time to read Elie Wiesel's Night then you'd know what an exaggerating jackass you are right now.

There has been no state-organised genocide in any country other than the US.

You just mentioned the Holocaust in your above post. You can't even agree with yourself?

Yes, I have edited and added "in the Western hemisphere" -- it was quite clear that that was what I was replying to (colonies of Spain, France, Portugala nd England).

Strange, where did the native population of Haiti go? It wasn't a black nation just a minute ago. For that matter, where did the Incan and Aztecs go? That's the darnedest thing...

Yes, I have edited and added "in the Western hemisphere" -- it was quite clear that that was what I was replying to (colonies of Spain, France, Portugala nd England).

You've yet to respond to my point - when has the United States conducted the same systematic campaign of repression, rounding up of its citizens, and exterminated them in concentration camps that the Third Reich conducted?

In the US we had a primarily ethnocidal campaign to obliterate the culture of the American Indian, yes, but how can the actions of the Spanish, Portuguese, British, Dutch and French not be counted as such simply because they're actions that occurred abroad from their home country?

More than that, last I checked the US had plenty of churches and fancy buildings in 1945.

The Spanish -- yes, and I said so. The Dutch, Portuguese -- much less so. The French almost not at all.

So you were around in 1945 and able to check?

What I emant is: there are hardly any centuries old buildings in the US -- Canada has many more (Quebec, Saint John -- or Saint John's -- whichever is in Newfoundland), as does South America (both pre- and post-Conquista).

So the US simply have no respect for history that Asians, Latin Americans, Canadians, and especially Europeans have.

The Spanish -- yes, and I said so. The Dutch, Portuguese -- much less so. The French almost not at all.

So you were around in 1945 and able to check?

What I emant is: there are hardly any centuries old buildings in the US -- Canada has many more (Quebec, Saint John -- or Saint John's -- whichever is in Newfoundland), as does South America (both pre- and post-Conquista).

So the US simply have no respect for history that Asians, Latin Americans, Canadians, and especially Europeans have.

Eh? The US has only existed for two-hundred odd years. Criticizing them for therefore having very few "century-old" buildings is therefore rather daft, don't you think?

As for a respect for history, their reverence of the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence and the Liberty Bell, amongst others, would seem to show otherwise.

I actually got through the rest of your post with an intent to whole heartedly reply, but here is the exact point where I decided not to. Instead I'm going to conserve energy by simply saying: I disagree with you. If you ever find the time to read Elie Wiesel's Night then you'd know what an exaggerating jackass you are right now.

If you ever have a chance to actually read the oral history of the Guantanamo concentration camp "internees" -- if anyone is ever willing to translate that into English and publish it, and you find strength in your brainwashed "ugly Yank" head to face the REALITY of what your country is -- you will understand why your idiotic patronising attitude is disgusting.

The Spanish -- yes, and I said so. The Dutch, Portuguese -- much less so. The French almost not at all.

So you were around in 1945 and able to check?

What I emant is: there are hardly any centuries old buildings in the US -- Canada has many more (Quebec, Saint John -- or Saint John's -- whichever is in Newfoundland), as does South America (both pre- and post-Conquista).

So the US simply have no respect for history that Asians, Latin Americans, Canadians, and especially Europeans have.

Wow, you are stupid.

New York City, Philadelphia, Boston, Washington, and Charleston are all rife with 'old' buildings.

Eh? The US has only existed for two-hundred odd years. Criticizing them for therefore having very few "century-old" buildings is therefore rather daft, don't you think?

As for a respect for history, their reverence of the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence and the Liberty Bell, amongst others, would seem to show otherwise.

No: I was criticising the lack of respect for history in the discourse of the United Statelets, NOT the fact that your ancestorts were too poor, too indolent, too kitch or whatever not to build nice edifices.

If you ever have a chance to actually read the oral history of the Guantanamo concentration camp "internees" -- if anyone is ever willing to translate that into English and publish it, and you find strength in your brainwashed "ugly Yank" head to face the REALITY of what your country is -- you will understand why your idiotic patronising attitude is disgusting.

Ho yes, because I'm American I already support the abolishment of Habeus Corpus and Due Process.

Way to be a small minded bigot.

Wow, you are stupid.

New York City, Philadelphia, Boston, Washington, and Charleston are all rife with 'old' buildings.

Wow, you are a moron.

None of those buildings is genuinely old. They are made up to look so.

Ho yes, because I'm American I already support the abolishment of Habeus Corpus and Due Process.

Way to be a small minded bigot.

And you think it is not bigoted of you to suggest that I, whose grandfather was kileld in the Holocaust 1941-45, do not know about it and must read Eli Wiesel -- or rather Weasel, a guy with under-average intelligence, who cashed his experiences much better than millions that have persihed.

Miserable wretch...

Wow, you are a moron.

None of those buildings is genuinely old. They are made up to look so.

Those are called renovations. They're necessary for preserving history that would otherwise rot away.

Maybe they just lined Independence Hall with spinning rims and I missed out. I really need to visit Philadelphia more often.

There has been no state-organised genocide in any country in the Western henmisphere (Eastern from here in China) other than the US. Sure, occupiers have brought diseases and have treated local population harshly in Spanish possessions -- less so in the Portuguese ones and almost not at all in French colonies (which is why French Guyanna is today the only territory in America that is a full member of the EU, as a part of French soil).

Whoa whoa whoa back up here. Wait a minute. Genoicide? What organized genocide? If your reffering to the Native Americans, yes that was terrible, but it wasn't state-orgainized. Yes, they did stand back and let the settlers take it back, but its not as bad as what China is doing in Tibet. Japan has come the closest to genocide, (it is east of china, falling under that category), but the biggest killer in all of the Americas was Spain, introducing countless diseases that killed possibly hundreds of millions of people.

Depleted uranium was not used 200 years ago, but it is still being used today.
Yeah, no duh.

Nagasaki -- the ONLY city in Japan open to Westerners during slef imposed isolation, with churches and Western style buildings -- was destroyed by the US who themselves had noi such buildings. And that was after Hiroshima, when they knew perfectly well that it is impermissible to use such a horrendous weapon.
Um actually the original target was Kyoti, which was where the massive buildup of Japanese forces were. Bad weather forced them to Nagasaki. Also, what do you mean by "the US who themselves had no such buildings"? And what would you have us done? Invade with the million soldier army we had prepared? Do you know how many people would have died because of that? Much more than they did in both Atomic bombs. Japan was going to have women and children charge the landing beaches with sharpened bamboo sticks, and would have told a country of millions to keep fighting to their deaths. Take your pick

[QUOTE]So, Hiroshima -- maybe they thought it was the only solution (it was NOT), but Nagasaki -- cold blooded premeditated mass murder[QUOTE]
Or Nagasaki -- neccesary move to ensure the Japanese thought that we had many more atomic bombs, thereby ensuring their surrender

What I emant is: there are hardly any centuries old buildings in the US — Canada has many more (Quebec, Saint John — or Saint John’s — whichever is in Newfoundland), as does South America (both pre- and post-Conquista).

So the US simply have no respect for history that Asians, Latin Americans, Canadians, and especially Europeans have.
What a weird generalisation.

Firstly, as Skinny87 rightly points out, there are hardly any ‘centuries-old’ buildings in the US anyways; most early structures of pre-European colonisation America were IIRC made of materials that do not survive the ravages of time, while America has a long history of nomadic peoples that leave few structures behind. Moreover, as opposed to European cities, much 18th and 19th century American buildings were made of wood and other easily destroyable materials.

I agree that history from an American point of view may be light on pre-European colonisation history, but from what I’ve seen/read/heard, Americans have an intense passion for their 200-odd year history.

I always remember being amused by a Time Team (a British rapid-fire archaeology program) special where the team went over to the US to help excavate one of the first European settlements on the mainland. The American team were painstakingly sifting through the top-soil, carefully recording ‘relics’ from the 1950s, while the Brits were getting more and more frustrated at the time it took the Yanks to get down to what they considered ‘real’ history.

No: I was criticising the lack of respect for history in the discourse of the United Statelets, NOT the fact that your ancestorts were too poor, too indolent, too kitch or whatever not to build nice edifices.

A: I'm British, but nice try anyway.

B: So, you're just going to ignore the question then, are you? Despite the fact that by not answering it you've effectively conceded your OP has no purpose?

And you think it is not bigoted of you to suggest that I, whose grandfather was kileld in the Holocaust 1941-45, do not know about it and must read Eli Wiesel -- or rather Weasel, a guy with under-average intelligence, who cashed his experiences much better than millions that have persihed.

Miserable wretch...

The only thing worse than a patriotic cheeseburger inhaling yank, is the person who assumes everyone from America is a patriotic cheeseburger inhaling yank.

How can you make these sweeping generalizations against a population you've clearly never even met? Yes our government does horrible things, and it disgusts me, but just because I'm not burning down the White House like a British Marine does not mean I support what they're doing.

Hate the government, not the people. Even if a majority (49% lol), put it in power.

The Spanish -- yes, and I said so. The Dutch, Portuguese -- much less so. The French almost not at all.

So you were around in 1945 and able to check?

What I emant is: there are hardly any centuries old buildings in the US -- Canada has many more (Quebec, Saint John -- or Saint John's -- whichever is in Newfoundland), as does South America (both pre- and post-Conquista).

So the US simply have no respect for history that Asians, Latin Americans, Canadians, and especially Europeans have.

Do Americans have a weaker than normal sense of history? Yes, but I don't see how that's relevant to anything.

No: I was criticising the lack of respect for history in the discourse of the United Statelets, NOT the fact that your ancestorts were too poor, too indolent, too kitch or whatever not to build nice edifices.

If that were true, then an appropriate response would be that they were too industrious to waste their time on such aristocratic and feudal frivolities...

But it isn't. New York, Boston, Baltimore, Charleston, New Orleans and Savannah are just a few cities that are filled with wonderful old buildings. Throughout the original Eastern Colonies there are delightful buildings, from the coast of Maine down through Georgia.

I'm not sure what this has to do with cheese, but...
hol·o·caust (hŏl'ə-kôst', hō'lə-) n.

1. Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.

Not to sound cold or pedantic, but if we characterize 72 people as 'great destruction' in this sense then the word 'holocaust' becomes so applicable to have no meaning. It means that not only would the attacks on the World Trade Center be considered a holocaust, but that the fires of at the Andreaus and Joelma buildings would be holocausts. Hell, even the 1955 Le Mans crash by the Mercedes Benz entry that killed 82 spectators would be considered a holocaust.

While all of these events are horrible and certainly disasters, they don't really achieve the 'great destruction' relative to what is generally considered holocaust, where we end up talking about 6 million killed not in an act of war, no matter how ill applied, but specifically towards the elimination of a people. As such the application of the word here is hyperbolic at best.

But since you are fond of the fact that terms have various definitions, allow me to direct you to this:
state (stāt) pronunciation
n.

1. A condition or mode of being, as with regard to circumstances: a state of confusion.
2. A condition of being in a stage or form, as of structure, growth, or development: the fetal state.
3. A mental or emotional condition: in a manic state.
4. Informal. A condition of excitement or distress.
5. Physics. The condition of a physical system with regard to phase, form, composition, or structure: Ice is the solid state of water.
6. Social position or rank.
7. Ceremony; pomp: foreign leaders dining in state at the White House.
8.
1. The supreme public power within a sovereign political entity.
2. The sphere of supreme civil power within a given polity: matters of state.
9. A specific mode of government: the socialist state.
10. A body politic, especially one constituting a nation: the states of Eastern Europe.
11. One of the more or less internally autonomous territorial and political units composing a federation under a sovereign government: the 48 contiguous states of the Union.
As you see, state can refer to a 'more or less internally autonomous territorial and political unit.' Now however diminished the states individual powers have been since our Civil War, the states still make decisions and operate with a degree of autonomy that would fit within that definition. So it is in fact correct to refer to them as 'states' and not 'statlets,' which itself does not have a definition and as such is a nonsense word.

Further, as the USA is the only nation on both American continents to organize itself in such a manner, it is correct to define them as the united states of America as this distinguishes it from the other political bodies on either continent.

Now you might complain that this lacks specificity, that they are the united states of North America, but this is unnecessary since there is not a group of united states in South America to distinguish it from. At best it could be called 'The United States of the Americas, but this seems unnecessarily clumsy.

You strongest point might be that technically speaking Mexico is actually 'The United Mexican States' or, since you're fond of mixing language to give the appearance of depth, Estados Unidos Mexicanos. In fact, these, too, are American united states, but in this case distinct in their relation to the specific displaced peoples involved in its formation and therefore to refer to them continentally would erase their desired specificity. For all your concern for them and their identity, it seems odd that you would insist on the spelling "Mejico" which is only really prominent in Spain, essentially the imperial power in that country's history, rather than the preferred spelling in Latin American Spanish of 'Mexico' with the acute accent on the 'e'. We can chalk that up to your well established pattern of being more about bluster than accuracy.

I'm not sure what this has to do with cheese, but...

Not to sound cold or pedantic, but if we characterize 72 people as 'great destruction' in this sense then the word 'holocaust' becomes so applicable to have no meaning. It means that not only would the attacks on the World Trade Center be considered a holocaust, but that the fires of at the Andreaus and Joelma buildings would be holocausts. Hell, even the 1955 Le Mans crash by the Mercedes Benz entry that killed 82 spectators would be considered a holocaust.

While all of these events are horrible and certainly disasters, they don't really achieve the 'great destruction' relative to what is generally considered holocaust, where we end up talking about 6 million killed not in an act of war, no matter how ill applied, but specifically towards the elimination of a people. As such the application of the word here is hyperbolic at best.

But since you are fond of the fact that terms have various definitions, allow me to direct you to this:

As you see, state can refer to a 'more or less internally autonomous territorial and political unit.' Now however diminished the states individual powers have been since our Civil War, the states still make decisions and operate with a degree of autonomy that would fit within that definition. So it is in fact correct to refer to them as 'states' and not 'statlets,' which itself does not have a definition and as such is a nonsense word.

Further, as the USA is the only nation on both American continents to organize itself in such a manner, it is correct to define them as the united states of America as this distinguishes it from the other political bodies on either continent.

Now you might complain that this lacks specificity, that they are the united states of North America, but this is unnecessary since there is not a group of united states in South America to distinguish it from. At best it could be called 'The United States of the Americas, but this seems unnecessarily clumsy.

You strongest point might be that technically speaking Mexico is actually 'The United Mexican States' or, sense you're fond of mixing language to give the appearance of depth, Estados Unidos Mexicanos. In fact, these, too, are American united states, but in this case distinct in their relation to the specific displaced peoples involved in its formation and therefore to refer to them continentally would erase their desired specificity. For all your concern for them and their identity, it seems odd that you would insist on the spelling "Mejico" which is only really prominent in Spain, essentially the imperial power in that country's history, rather than the preferred spelling in Latin American Spanish of 'Mexico' with the acute accent on the 'e'. We can chalk that up to your well established pattern of being more about bluster than accuracy.

I applaud you on that massive info dump...wow.

state (stāt) pronunciation
n.

1. A condition or mode of being, as with regard to circumstances: a state of confusion.
2. A condition of being in a stage or form, as of structure, growth, or development: the fetal state.
3. A mental or emotional condition: in a manic state.
4. Informal. A condition of excitement or distress.
5. Physics. The condition of a physical system with regard to phase, form, composition, or structure: Ice is the solid state of water.
6. Social position or rank.
7. Ceremony; pomp: foreign leaders dining in state at the White House.
8.
1. The supreme public power within a sovereign political entity.
2. The sphere of supreme civil power within a given polity: matters of state.
9. A specific mode of government: the socialist state.
10. A body politic, especially one constituting a nation: the states of Eastern Europe.
11. One of the more or less internally autonomous territorial and political units composing a federation under a sovereign government: the 48 contiguous states of the Union.

I think calling it "United (Manic) Condition(-let)s of Excitement or Distress in a Belt Between Canada and Mejico" would be way too much, as that ugly phenomenon doesn't deserve such attention span as it takes to type that.

So I'll settle for the United Maniacs.

or do you prefer it as "Maniacs United"? that would give it a nice faux sheen of quasi-history
:rolleyes:

Yes, it is easier to make a fool of yourselves by going on and on about cheese instead of facing the issue:

government of the United Statelets of a Belt Between Canada and Mejico went in to slaughter the children.

And succeeded.
Nice claim. either support it, or behold the power of the cheese (http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6363/cheese2hq.jpg).

hol·o·caust (hŏl'ə-kôst', hō'lə-) n.

1. Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.
2. a) Holocaust The genocide of European Jews and others by the Nazis during World War II: “Israel emerged from the Holocaust and is defined in relation to that catastrophe” (Emanuel Litvinoff).
b) A massive slaughter: “an important document in the so-far sketchy annals of the Cambodian holocaust” (Rod Nordland).
3. A sacrificial offering that is consumed entirely by flames.


========================================================


... a confused state of negotiations went on for 51 days, ending on April 19, 1993 when the compound burned to the ground, killing Koresh and 74 followers, including 21 children. Although a special investigation by the U.S. Justice Department exonerated the government, the debate over who started the fire goes on.


-----------------

David Koresh (born Vernon Wayne Howell) (August 17, 1959 – April 19, 1993) was the leader of the Branch Davidians religious sect, believing himself to be the final prophet, until a 1993 raid by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and subsequent siege by the Federal Bureau of Investigation ended with the burning of the Branch Davidian ranch. Koresh, 53 adults (including two pregnant women) and 21 children died in the fire.

-----------------------------------

Before the Flames

http://www.alibris.com/search/detail.cfm?chunk=25&mtype=&qisbn=9781885778116&S=R&bid=9275307090&pbest=&pqtynew=&page=1&matches=2&qsort=p
ohh...bold and red! that must be true!
Wow, you are a moron.

None of those buildings is genuinely old. They are made up to look so.
My house is 250 years old (yep...older than the revolution. Strange, eh?). Nearly every New England town and city has a historic district and society that defends it.
hows that for respect for history?

Yes, I have edited and added "in the Western hemisphere" -- it was quite clear that that was what I was replying to (colonies of Spain, France, Portugala nd England).

That's nice. Completely irrelevant, but nice. The Conquistadores were all sugar and spice, then? The Canadians had a little war over which side would take precedence -- cooperation or extermination. Thankfully, cooperation (to a degree) won. Check out the history of a Canadian bloke named Louis Riel and the Metis rebellion. In fact, go ahead and read ANYTHING written by a reputable source with demonstrable research, PLEASE.

The Spanish -- yes, and I said so. The Dutch, Portuguese -- much less so. The French almost not at all.

So you admit that you're wrong, then. Good for you. That takes strength.

So you were around in 1945 and able to check?

No, but guess what? Other people were! And guess what again! They wrote books (The aforementioned Night by Elie Wiesel, and many others), took pictures -- the whole nine yards! 1945 was only 62 years ago, mate! Helloooo? Anyone home?

What I meant was: there are hardly any centuries-old buildings in the US -- Canada has many more (Quebec, Saint John -- or Saint John's -- whichever is in Newfoundland), as does South America (both pre- and post-Conquista).

If you count pre-USA New Mexico, there are buildings from 1610 in the USA (Santa Fe, NM Governor's Palace). 17th & 18th century Spanish presidios line the California coast, and missions dot the interior. The Castillo de San Marcos in St. Augustine, FL dates from the 1560s, the earliest continuously occupied permanent European settlement inwhat would become the USA.

The Governor's Palace in Williamsburg, VA (built about 1710) certainly counts as "centuries-old"...nearly three centuries. Check out the Balch House of Beverly, MA (1630s) for oldest wood frames, or even the Old North Church (made famous by the Paul Revere legend and poem), built in 1723.

Before you lob the "ignorant" label, you best be sure you're not wearing it.

So the US simply have no respect for history that Asians, Latin Americans, Canadians, and especially Europeans have.

Can you name a building in Canada older than 1723? Older than 1610? You're comparing apples to computers, chum, and it doesn't reflect well on your ability to think rationally. Besides, HAVING old structures doesn't equate to a RESPECT for history. It's easy for a European to respect what they have a lot of. I think Americans respect US history in many ways, and though most of them have to do with buying kitschy souvenirs of them, they wouldn't be around without monumental preservation efforts. So you're pissing up a rope with that argument, friend.

If you ever have a chance to actually read the oral history of the Guantanamo concentration camp "internees" -- if anyone is ever willing to translate that into English and publish it, and you find strength in your brainwashed "ugly Yank" head to face the REALITY of what your country is -- you will understand why your idiotic patronising attitude is disgusting.

You just said "read the oral history", so I'll refrain from laughing too loud. It is YOU who have not read enough if you're comparing Guantanamo to Auschwitz. Tell me that the folks in Nazi concentration camps were ever discussed with such vigor on Nazi radio broadcasts? Tell me they were allowed to exercise their religion as freely as possible given the circumstances. Tell me the US Military is making tallow out of anyone who dies there, ON THE RARE OCCASION THAT IT HAPPENS. Tell me we're conducting scientific experiments on Gitmo prisoners to determine the limits of human functionality in harsh or fatal conditions? YOU. CAN'T. You're completely full of shit, and I've have INFINITELY more respect for you if you'd have just come out and said you didn't approve of what was going on at Gitmo instead of trying to claim some kind of moral high ground.

I don't like what my government is doing there, but I'm not going to let some snot-nosed Euro-whelp try and compare it to Bergen-Belsen, Dachau, Sobibor, or Auschwitz.

No: I was criticising the lack of respect for history in the discourse of the United Statelets, NOT the fact that your ancestorts were too poor, too indolent, too kitch or whatever not to build nice edifices.

I've already shown you that this blinkered, philistine, pig-ignorant view of yours is hopelessly wrong. But by all means, continue posting and leaving no doubt that you're utterly incompetent.

I think calling it "United (Manic) Condition(-let)s of Excitement or Distress in a Belt Between Canada and Mejico" would be way too much, as that ugly phenomenon doesn't deserve such attention span as it takes to type that.

So I'll settle for the United Maniacs.

or do you prefer it as "Maniacs United"? that would give it a nice faux sheen of quasi-history
:rolleyes:

...

Look, I realize English may not be your first language, but this post makes absolutely no sense.

or do you prefer it as "Maniacs United"? that would give it a nice faux sheen of quasi-history
:rolleyes:

No, that would seem to be your unique specialty.

...

Look, I realize English may not be your first language, but this post makes absolutely no sense.

Never you mind. When/if you improve your English skills it will.

Never you mind. When/if you improve your English skills it will.

Miodrag might I ask where you actually come from?

Never you mind. When/if you improve your English skills it will.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a Euro-troll. Don't feed him anymore. He can't answer coherent arguments with anything but bad syntax and worse history. He has yet to reply to anything I've posted and never replied to the point that Khoresh chose his immolation and those with children chose for them. He's a complete tool and deserves no more of anyone's effort.

Never you mind. When/if you improve your English skills it will.

For what it's worth, you are very entertaining.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a Euro-troll. Don't feed him anymore. He can't answer coherent arguments with anything but bad syntax and worse history. He has yet to reply to anything I've posted and never replied to the point that Khoresh chose his immolation and those with children chose for them. He's a complete tool and deserves no more of anyone's effort.

Which is precisely why we should stick to the topic of the true OP:

Cheese. (http://photo.net/photo/pcd0087/cheese-doodles-wide-60.4.jpg)

Never you mind. When/if you improve your English skills it will.

No, it just plain makes no sense. Come back after you learn something about context.

Miodrag might I ask where you actually come from?

And more importantly what cheeses they produce there.

Calm down dear!

It’s only an internet discussion.

God that catchphrase makes me want to rip my face off :p

Never you mind. When/if you improve your English skills it will.

You know, insulting other posters isn't the best idea in the worold. Especially as you've already been reported in Moderation.

However, I apologise and ask once again - will you please answer the question I have asked of you several times now?

or do you prefer it as “Maniacs United”? that would give it a nice faux sheen of quasi-history
Do you mean these guys:

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/80/manutdql9rq8.jpg

Never you mind. When/if you improve your English skills it will.
Calm down dear!

It’s only an internet discussion.

And more importantly what cheeses they produce there.

Gouda and Munster and Brie oh my

I think calling it "United (Manic) Condition(-let)s of Excitement or Distress in a Belt Between Canada and Mejico" would be way too much, as that ugly phenomenon doesn't deserve such attention span as it takes to type that.

So I'll settle for the United Maniacs.

or do you prefer it as "Maniacs United"? that would give it a nice faux sheen of quasi-history
:rolleyes:
What did I say about bluster?

Miodrag might I ask where you actually come from?

I am not sure I understand your question. As I said before I have 3 citizenships and have lived (for a year or longer) in 4 countries in the last decade (7 in the last 16 years).

Gouda and Munster and Brie oh my

Mmmmmm, cheeeeese.

You know, insulting other posters isn't the best idea in the worold. Especially as you've already been reported in Moderation.

However, I apologise and ask once again - will you please answer the question I have asked of you several times now?

Ah, so you purport that being told by others the same thing (in a better phrased sentence) that you have previously told those same others is insulting and you report it to "Moderation". Wow!!

I am not sure I understand your question. As I said before I have 3 citizenships and have lived (for a year or longer) in 4 countries in the last decade (7 in the last 16 years).

In which country were you born?

Ah, so you purport that being told by others the same thing (in a better phrased sentence) that you have previously told those same others is insulting and you report it to "Moderation". Wow!!
Dude, that sentence needs to be dragged out back and shot.

Ah, so you purport that being told by others the same thing (in a better phrased sentence) that you have previously told those same others is insulting and you report it to "Moderation". Wow!!

Again, I apologize but your grammar is difficult to follow. Will you, however, answer the question I asked of you several posts previously?

When has the United States engaged in the same systematic holocaust that the Third Reich conducted, with concentration camps?

In which country were you born?

To you -- I am not talking. Not until you apologise, that is.

Dude, that sentence needs to be dragged out back and shot.

!

You so stole that from me.

To you -- I am not talking.

I'm mature god damn it!

Dude, that sentence needs to be dragged out back and shot.

no no no...it should be cheesed and feathered.

To you -- I am not talking. Not until you apologise, that is.

Witty and mature.

Dude, that sentence needs to be dragged out back and shot.

Calamity Dude-ss, behave or you might get whupped bare butt -- and I ain't dragging you back: it happens here, before the very eyes of all members of your cheerleading gang.

[QUOTE=Miodrag Superior;13187809]Was it necessary to slaughter those children at Waco?

Perhaps David Koresh overstepped his First amendment rights -- though it is debatable. But THE CHILDREN??? Why did the government of the United Statelets murder them?QUOTE]:confused:

I think in this case you are refering to the fire, that was started by David Koresh's group and the killing of innocent children, also by his by order as proven by survior's accounts and the review of the scene. Also, not to justify it, but often in those close situations it difficult, no, impossible for the men and women in uniform to be able to determine where a bullet flies, it doesn't know the difference. Besides, those officers where doing their job and ensuring their own safety. If you ask any person in a service like this is of the upmost importance, even if somewhat morally wrong, is what must be done. unfortunantely in that situation, civilian and child casualties are unaviodable especially with a fantic nut-case like Koresh and the rest of the of his most loyal followers

!

You so stole that from me.

Did not!

Maybe. I don't know. "Dragged out back and shot" seems common to me for some reason.

[QUOTE=Miodrag Superior;13187809]Was it necessary to slaughter those children at Waco?

Perhaps David Koresh overstepped his First amendment rights -- though it is debatable. But THE CHILDREN??? Why did the government of the United Statelets murder them?QUOTE]:confused:

I think in this case you are refering to the fire, that was started by David Koresh's group and the killing of innocent children, also by his by order as proven by survior's accounts and the review of the scene. Also, not to justify it, but often in those close situations it difficult, no, impossible for the men and women in uniform to be able to determine where a bullet flies, it doesn't know the difference. Besides, those officers where doing their job and ensuring their own safety. If you ask any person in a service like this is of the upmost importance, even if somewhat morally wrong, is what must be done. unfortunantely in that situation, civilian and child casualties are unaviodable especially with a fantic nut-case like Koresh and the rest of the of his most loyal followers

That was a great argument, with clearly understandable sentence patterns, good justification, and a rebuking of some conspiracy therioes.

5$ says that Mirodrag wont listen and will reply with some unintellegent gibberish