NationStates Jolt Archive

Some hard-core Nazi hunters have discovered a former Nazi SS member living the rest of his life peacefully in Atlanta. Homeland Security wants to deport him. What do ya'll think?

link (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/14243131/detail.html)

Just give me a pistol and I’ll end his miserable existence.
Why not just put him in a concentration camp surrounded by attack dogs?

You’re leaking hypocrisy.

Some hard-core Nazi hunters have discovered a former Nazi SS member living the rest of his life peacefully in Atlanta. Homeland Security wants to deport him. What do ya'll think?

link (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/14243131/detail.html)

Just give me a pistol and I'll end his miserable existence.

Newsflash; Nazis living everywhere. If you were male and German in the 40's, you were a Nazi.

Just give me a pistol and I'll end his miserable existence.:cool: *gives IDF a pistol*

go get him tiger. go-go-go-GO-GO ... !!!!

That old dog handler is clearly a grave threat to national security. :rolleyes:

He's 85, and reading between the lines of the article rather confused if not downright senile.
What justice would be done by deporting him? And deporting him where? To Germany? To Israel?

He should be forced to give every jew who shows up at his house a taco.


*nod*

With extra cheese. *nods*

Couple of corrections...
-- It's Lawrenceville, not Atlanta, but close enough for those of you with only a public school education.

-- HS is deporting him, not wants to deport him. The process just takes time.

The amazing thing is that popular opinion is to let him stay. Must be the influx of yankees that have infested North Georgia that tips public opinion in such a obscene way.

He's 85, and reading between the lines of the article rather confused if not downright senile.
What justice would be done by deporting him? And deporting him where? To Germany? To Israel?Deport him to IDF house, and give him a pistol :)

...
give them both a pistol :D

He should be forced to give every jew who shows up at his house a taco.


*nod*

Are you certain you've read the article? Besides being a nazi, he was also a willing member of the SS, who guarded prisoners of the Dachau concentration camp.

Being a nazi in those days doesn't automatically a war criminal, but being a member of the waffen ss, while stationed at dachau of all places, makes it a bit harder to proclaim your moral innocence.

No, he was a DOG TRAINER. He trained attack dogs. Which could have been used to guard concentration camps, POW camps or military installations.

I can't help but think that the only difference between him and both of my grandfathers who fought in the war, is that his side lost.

Newsflash; Nazis living everywhere. If you were male and German in the 40's, you were a Nazi.

Are you certain you've read the article? Besides being a nazi, he was also a willing member of the SS, who guarded prisoners of the Dachau concentration camp.

Being a nazi in those days doesn't automatically a war criminal, but being a member of the waffen ss, while stationed at dachau of all places, makes it a bit harder to proclaim your moral innocence.

I can't help but think that the only difference between him and both of my grandfathers who fought in the war, is that his side lost.

Bingo. I don't believe in victor's justice. Victor's justice is the entire reason that WWII and the Holocaust happened.

I say we deport the Pope while we're at it.

Suppose he trained dogs to hunt down escaped prisoners.

He's 85, and reading between the lines of the article rather confused if not downright senile.
What justice would be done by deporting him? And deporting him where? To Germany? To Israel?

His current state matters little. -If- he truelly is guilty of possible crimes during the 2nd world war then he was part of the well oiled machine that was the final solution.

Crimes against humanity shouldnt have an expiration date. They should hunt those guilty of it during all their life time.

Bingo. I don’t believe in victor’s justice. Victor’s justice is the entire reason that WWII and the Holocaust happened.
Go Versailles Treaty!

Or not...


Anyways, as to the, currently, three people who have voted to execute a senile old man, do they not see the hypocrisy in their voting?

I can't help but think that the only difference between him and both of my grandfathers who fought in the war, is that his side lost.NO NO NO !!!

haven't you seen the Hollywood Movies ???
They were all teh ebil. The Nazis, the Japs.. all of them.

and.. there was no ebil in our side.. none nada zero.

His current state matters little. -If- he truelly is guilty of possible crimes during the 2nd world war then he was part of the well oiled machine that was the final solution.

Crimes against humanity shouldnt have an expiration date. They should hunt those guilty of it during all their life time.

Innocent until proven guilty, have you heard of it?

His current state matters little. -If- he truelly is guilty of possible crimes during the 2nd world war then he was part of the well oiled machine that was the final solution.

Crimes against humanity shouldnt have an expiration date. They should hunt those guilty of it during all their life time.

So you support my grandfather being prosecuted? He was in the Hitler Youth, fought in France late in the war. He was part of the "well oiled machine".

Hell, prosecute my family while you're at it. They're part of the "well oiled machine".

But we don't want to be hypocrites. Let's arrest every man, women and child in the US. They started and fueled the illegal Iraq war. They're part of the "well oiled machine".

So, when are we going to execute or deport those who firebombed Dresden and Tokyo, dropped nuclear weapons on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, etc.?

No, he was a DOG TRAINER. He trained attack dogs. Which could have been used to guard concentration camps, POW camps or military installations.

Mind you, the article cleary states that he:

"taught other concentration camp guards at Dachau and Buchwenwald how to use attack dogs to guard prisoners and prevent their escape"

It implies he was at those places when he taught them to train the dogs which mean he fully knew where and how these dogs were going to be used for.

His current state matters little. -If- he truelly is guilty of possible crimes during the 2nd world war then he was part of the well oiled machine that was the final solution.

Crimes against humanity shouldnt have an expiration date. They should hunt those guilty of it during all their life time.

The entire German population, with very very few exceptions, was part of that machine during the war. And so were uncounted Dutchmen, French, Norwegians, and many others.
He admited to have volunteered. More than understandable at the time, althought in hindsight a big stupid mistake. My own grandfather returned to Germany from the USA to join the Wehrmacht at the time. Nazi propaganda was extremely convincing, don't forget that.
That's no excuse, mind, it's just an explanation.
If all he did was train watch dogs and guard prisoners, I don't see the need to put him on trial this many years later.

you mean there's still any of those old bastards who haven't yet keeled over of old age?

the eyes of 'homeland' security are a bit too arbitrarily selective, probably wanting to make one example, as a smoke screen from the terrorists for capitolism they are hiding and protecting.

what about that guy from venizualla who bombed that airplane in the 70s they've been hiding in florida, i forget his name.

what the ss did was very naughty, but there's other groups and members of them, just as naughty and more recent, being turned a deliberately blind eye to.

so i think yes, if he's someone who did terrible things to lots of people and he's never paid his debt to society, then of course he still owes it. but i also think, these aren't the only people who have ever done so, and there are many the u.s. finds it convenient to harbour, for reasons of its own vested bias.

=^^=
.../\...

His current state matters little. -If- he truelly is guilty of possible crimes during the 2nd world war then he was part of the well oiled machine that was the final solution.

Crimes against humanity shouldnt have an expiration date. They should hunt those guilty of it during all their life time.

There really should be a statue of limitations on his crime. Hes not a maniacal Nazi anymore if he ever was. He lived in Atlanta longer than he lived in Germany anyway.

Mind you, the article cleary states that he:

"taught other concentration camp guards at Dachau and Buchwenwald how to use attack dogs to guard prisoners and prevent their escape"

It implies he was at those places when he taught them to train the dogs which mean he fully knew where and how these dogs were going to be used for.

By that argument, you might as well put all rail employees of the Reichsbahn from the 1930s till 1945 on trial, too...

So you support my grandfather being prosecuted? He was in the Hitler Youth, fought in France late in the war. He was part of the "well oiled machine".

Hell, prosecute my family while you're at it. They're part of the "well oiled machine".

But we don't want to be hypocrites. Let's arrest every man, women and child in the US. They started and fueled the illegal Iraq war. They're part of the "well oiled machine".


Ugh...I cleary stated that he had to be guilty of war crimes. Being a combatant doesn't automatically make you a war criminal. Also the well oiled machine i was refering to would be the machine of the death camps. Something the mainstream german army wasn't part of and most of them didnt even knew of.

So before you start being indignant about people being hypocrites I urge you to carefully read my text, because I would think you would agree too that if somebody commits war crimes they should be punished for it.
Naturally being a mere dog trainer doesn't make you a criminal.

Mind you, the article cleary states that he:

"taught other concentration camp guards at Dachau and Buchwenwald how to use attack dogs to guard prisoners and prevent their escape"

It implies he was at those places when he taught them to train the dogs which mean he fully knew where and how these dogs were going to be used for.

"Investigators also said that Henss taught other concentration camp guards at Dachau and Buchwenwald how to use attack dogs to guard prisoners and prevent their escape.

Henss himself is also accused of personally guarding prisoners and labor details with an attack dog."

So he trained the dogs and dog handlers. Or at least that's what he's being accused of.

And speakinf of the article:
"Henss said he didn't know about the mass extermination of Jews and other prisoners. "This was in 1942, I didn't know nothing about what they were going to do, especially with the Jews, I didn't know nothing about it," Henss told reporters."

He was not a leader, he was not in charge. So leave this guy alone.
Else you can arrest and deport all Germans having an age of 70 years or older.

And what about the ‘holy’ pope?

Some Bush deserves more a deportation than this dog handler.

Yes, but the question arises, are the charges against him true, and is he capable of aiding in his own defense. The formers seems unlikely, since he only spent 2-3 months and BOTH camps, and he was specifically a DOG TRAINER (working out of Berlin) and only there to train the camp guards on how to handle these dogs. And the previous seems unlikely as well. Even IF he guarded a single prisoner, unless he actually shot a prisoner, or locked one in a gas chamber, he's not guilty, simply being a Nazi soldier, or simply being in the SS, or even simply being stationed at one of the Concentration Camps does not automatically mean he is guilty.

No. Even if he shot one, or locked one down in a gas chamber.

He's just an ordinary soldier. Not some general or something...

His current state matters little. -If- he truelly is guilty of possible crimes during the 2nd world war then he was part of the well oiled machine that was the final solution.

Crimes against humanity shouldnt have an expiration date. They should hunt those guilty of it during all their life time.

Yes, but the question arises, are the charges against him true, and is he capable of aiding in his own defense. The formers seems unlikely, since he only spent 2-3 months and BOTH camps, and he was specifically a DOG TRAINER (working out of Berlin) and only there to train the camp guards on how to handle these dogs. And the previous seems unlikely as well. Even IF he guarded a single prisoner, unless he actually shot a prisoner, or locked one in a gas chamber, he's not guilty, simply being a Nazi soldier, or simply being in the SS, or even simply being stationed at one of the Concentration Camps does not automatically mean he is guilty.

Nazis are mean.my dentist is too. :mp5::mp5::sniper::sniper:

Lets deport him to Gitmo. :D

Nazis are mean.

Everyone who commits a war crime or crimes against against humanity should be proparly punished for it. Everyone.. US exempted.

By that argument, you might as well put all rail employees of the Reichsbahn from the 1930s till 1945 on trial, too...

Not really, I was merely pointing out an wrongly stated fact by another poster who said he was only training them while not knowing where they went so you are taking it out of context.

Clearly people are getting very touchy about this subject so ill say my thought about this matter more clearly instead of being attacked for small fragments which can be taken out of context.

Everyone who commits a war crime or crimes against against humanity should be proparly punished for it. In this particular case I merely see a dog handler but I think he should be punished if the investigation shows he actually commited crimes against humanity.

So please...no more of this "if x or y trained puppies for x or y nation do you want to lynch them to you lunatic?!" crap.

Not really, I was merely pointing out an wrongly stated fact by another poster who said he was only training them while not knowing where they went so you are taking it out of context.

Clearly people are getting very touchy about this subject so ill say my thought about this matter more clearly instead of being attacked for small fragments which can be taken out of context.

Everyone who commits a war crime or crimes against against humanity should be proparly punished for it. In this particular case I merely see a dog handler but I think he should be punished if the investigation shows he actually commited crimes against humanity.

So please...no more of this "if x or y trained puppies for x or y nation do you want to lynch them to you lunatic?!" crap.

Generally, I would agree.
However, as you pointed out, he trained dogs. He readily admitted to that, and to training prison guards on how to handle the trained dogs. He also admitted that he knew what the dogs were used for, so yes, he does bear some responsibility. As does almost every German who lived in Germany during that period. And some who lived abroad as well.
However, to put it into perspective, the facts we are given right are nowhere near sufficient to even consider calling him a war criminal. There is no evidence given that he was directly involved in the maltreatment or killing of innocents.

Bingo. I don't believe in victor's justice. Victor's justice is the entire reason that WWII and the Holocaust happened.

There is a huge difference between a a conscripted soldier and a member of the SS.

Your argument is based on falacies or a complete lack of knowledge on your part in regards to history.

He's just an ordinary soldier. Not some general or something...

No, ordinary soldiers were in the Germany Army. This guy was in the SS. You fail.

... history.History is written by the Victors.. and projected by movie directors.

"

And speakinf of the article:
"[highlight]Henss said he didn't know about the mass extermination of Jews and other prisoners. "This was in 1942, I didn't know nothing about what they were going to do, especially with the Jews, I didn't know nothing about it," Henss told reporters."
Convincing stuff. I believe that every time I see a convict claim "It wasn't me" and every time I see a mom say "My boy wouldn't do that".

We don't need trials and courts, all we need to do is ask the accused if he did it. If he says no, we let him go. That's pretty damned easy.

History is written by the Victors.. and projected by movie directors.Are you disputing that the SS was a separate organization from the Germany Army?

That is fucking historical fact, but then again you're a damn fool who denies the Holocaust.

Yes, but the question arises, are the charges against him true, and is he capable of aiding in his own defense. The formers seems unlikely, since he only spent 2-3 months and BOTH camps, and he was specifically a DOG TRAINER (working out of Berlin) and only there to train the camp guards on how to handle these dogs. And the previous seems unlikely as well. Even IF he guarded a single prisoner, unless he actually shot a prisoner, or locked one in a gas chamber, he's not guilty, simply being a Nazi soldier, or simply being in the SS, or even simply being stationed at one of the Concentration Camps does not automatically mean he is guilty.

I concur entirely with you, so in case there is no proof for his allaged crimes then he should naturally be off the hook. In fact it quite hard to proof any of these crimes, but who knows, maybe a former inmate is watching...

Innocent until proven guilty, have you heard of it?


Jezus yes...that is why I emphasized the -if-....but thank you for concurring with my statement.

Its the same as saying "if person X commited crime Y then he should be punished".

Its odd how people can turn your entire statement around and turn it into something completely diffrent than what you intented. I merely emphasized that war criminals should be punished, unless people here are going to dispute that aswell?

(And before people start crying murder here because this men appears to be innocent, well thats nice because I agree he seems innocent, so for the sake of his allready tarnished reputation, lets hope it stays that way)

Are you disputing that the...I am not disputing anything.. I was not there.

but I am not going to take -all the details of- your version of "WWII" for facts.
.

That is fucking historical fact..History is written by the Victors.

There is a huge difference between a a conscripted soldier and a member of the SS.

Your argument is based on falacies or a complete lack of knowledge on your part in regards to history.

Your argument is emotive and specious, what's your point?

...you're a damn fool who denies the Holocaust.Bingo !!!
>> Sooner-than-later, IDF shall use his key words (Anti-Semite/NAZI/Holocaust-denier) >>

I knew you were not going to let us down IDF. ;)

No, ordinary soldiers were in the Germany Army. This guy was in the SS. You fail.

The SS were a kind of Special Forces, yes. The 'elite', their Praetorian Guard.

And btw there's not one SS. But at least 6 groups of SS divisions. Probably he was part of the SS-Totenkopfverbände.

So?

He was still not in charge or a leader.

Else, we can convict the entire Navy Seals, Delta Forces, Green Berets and the countless other Special Forces of US after the Iraq war...

Convincing stuff. I believe that every time I see a convict claim "It wasn't me" and every time I see a mom say "My boy wouldn't do that".

We don't need trials and courts, all we need to do is ask the accused if he did it. If he says no, we let him go. That's pretty damned easy.

Everyone in WW2 germany was saying that, including the civilian population living down-wind of the camps... I for one second do not believe that he didn't know what was going on... I also do not believe that knowledge makes him a war-criminal. If mere knowlege made one a criminal, then kitchen staff would have been getting shot, merely for being at a particular camp, and knowing what the people in charge were doing there.

I also find it funny when news people have to say "He joined the Nazi youth in..." Ok, yeah... and? So did the entire male and female population of Germany who wasn't interned in some Ghetto or Camp!

Are you disputing that the SS was a separate organization from the Germany Army?

That is fucking historical fact, but then again you're a damn fool who denies the Holocaust.

And you're a fool who believes that all Germans, even modern ones who were born after the war, are guilty of WWII war crimes. I've seen you say it.

I can't help but think that the only difference between him and both of my grandfathers who fought in the war, is that his side lost.

SS worked with Gaestapo in rounding up and executing "unwanted" peoples...the only instance of anything remotely close to that was the round up of Japanese along the west coast...however while being detained was wrong..they were kept fed not starved..and not gassed to death or executed by the millions....medical experiments weren't conducted on them either....

Ocean..you can say history is written by the victors all you want..considering I've read books written with or by SS officer's/enlisted men and they concur with what the "victors" version of the war is..they provide a different point of view but still concur

Next I assume you're going to say thousands of people including Germans Russians Italians French etc etc who were there and give testimony as to what they saw or did are all part of one massive conspiracy :rolleyes:..you really are as ignorant as AP

And actually it is somewhat amazing how many Gestapo and SS officers returned to normal every day life without any punishment..in fact a lot of Gestapo officers returned and worked as normal police officers in Germany

I also find it funny when news people have to say "He joined the Nazi youth in..." Ok, yeah... and? So did the entire male and female population of Germany who wasn't interned in some Ghetto or Camp!

Because by 1936, membership (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Youth#Membership) was mandatory, even if one's parents opposed it.

[QUOTE=Tekania;13101848]I also do not believe that knowledge makes him a war-criminal. If mere knowlege made one a criminal, then kitchen staff would have been getting shot, merely for being at a particular camp, and knowing what the people in charge were doing there.

QUOTE]

I would agree with you when it concers only kitchen staff however I don't think its a suitable anolagy.

There is a difference between kitchen staff at a camp who knew about the holocaust and for example an ss guard at Auschwitz who knows that the people he was gaurding would be "destroyed". The former is essentially powerless to stop it (The question arises if perhaps he should at least do something about it, but then again, what would you do if you were in their shoes? The sad fact is probably the same: nothing) while the latter is contributing directly to the crime.

In this case we should ask ourselves if training guard dogs is suitable enough to make you a direct participant of the crime. In my opinion, if we assume everything in the article is true and he has done nothing else, then we should probably let the matter rest.

As for the matter of history being written by the victor, yes thats quite true, however be happy that the Nazi's were not able to write it instead.

I also find the argument that all sides in WW II commited war crimes to be moot at best. Yes the fire-bombing of japan was horrible, but how does it justify the crimes against humanity at the death camps? Do two wrongs suddenly make both right? Or is it an attempt to show us the hypocrisy of it all? In that case, I welcome you to our human existance.

Are you disputing that the SS was a separate organization from the Germany Army?

So? The US marines are separate from the US army. What's your point?

Newsflash; Nazis living everywhere. If you were male and German in the 40's, you were a Nazi.

In the other news:

Odessa and Paperclip,
or How The Allies Vouchered Former Nazis To Both Americas!

Wernher von Braun,
or From SS To OSS!

Dr.Strangelove,
or How I Learned Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb!

So because the top executives of ENRON committed crimes, all the employees should be jailed as well?

And don’t start moaning that this situation is different, that he knew about it.

If he would have said: “I don’t like this” then he would have received another uniform and maybe he would have to join the showers.

you can say history is written by the victors all you want..considering I've read books written with or by SS officer's/enlisted men and they concur with what the "victors" version of the war is..they provide a different point of view but still concur


I don't think history books would read the same had Germany won the war in Europe, and I think that's the point being made as far as history bing written by the victors goes.

As for personal accounts, they're always going to be different from what the govenment line would have been, but I have to wonder how many books written by former SS soldiers would be published if they went against the accepted Nazi=Evil grain.

As for the accussed SS fellows fate, if it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt he commited a crime, he should be punished. However, deporting a man of that age doesn't seem a suitable punishment, although at that age I don't know what would be.

So because the top executives of ENRON committed crimes, all the employees should be jailed as well?

And don’t start moaning that this situation is different, that he knew about it.

If he would have said: “I don’t like this” then he would have received another uniform and maybe he would have to join the showers.

Yes, -IF- those employees activily, willingly and conciously aided those top executives.

Also is it just me or when the only punishment for not wanting to guard the death camps would be a change of uniforms or a demotion would seem acceptable to me? However your point of ending up dead self wether joining the prisoners or being send to the russian front seems to be more credible.
I guess its a moral dilema we should hope never to have.

No, he was a DOG TRAINER. He trained attack dogs. Which could have been used to guard concentration camps, POW camps or military installations.

Excellent! DHS should hire him to train those dogs used in guarding Gitmo. Lets make use of his skill while he still lasts!

It implies he was at those places when he taught them to train the dogs which mean he fully knew where and how these dogs were going to be used for.

Guarding prisoners?

This guys 85. He isn't really a threat to national security is he? I mean come on, Whats he going to do? Shoot the president?

I rest my case

Officials said Henss entered the United States in 1955 after concealing his concentration camp service.

I think the posters on this thread are missing the point here- whether or not he committed war crimes isn't relevant to whether he will be deported. It appears to be a question of whether or not he lied on his immigration papers.

If he did, that's a big no-no, and a cause for deportation.

Uh, does anybody really think there are going to be lots of elated Jews all over the world if we deport this guy? I bet there aren't. How about just leaving the poor guy alone, for Christs sake. I don't understand why we have this hysterical need to chase down Nazis the world over like they are vampires. Next we'll be chasing after the descendants of German WWII uniform-washers.

Am I a fascist for saying that? :confused:

I can't help but think that the only difference between him and both of my grandfathers who fought in the war, is that his side lost.

That depends. Were your grandfathers soldiers in the war who fought other soldiers or did they train dogs to kill civilians?

Did your grandfathers volunteer to be members of an elite who used slave labour to profit from the war?

I think the posters on this thread are missing the point here- whether or not he committed war crimes isn't relevant to whether he will be deported. It appears to be a question of whether or not he lied on his immigration papers.

If he did, that's a big no-no, and a cause for deportation.

except that there is numerous amnesty and / or statutes of limitations on these kinds of things.

If this is the reason, he's got a good case to stay. Not so much if he faces war crime charges.

He should be forced to give every jew who shows up at his house a taco.


*nod*
Now, see, that would actually be fair, in a humorous way.

The kind of hatred I'm seeing in this thread is so disgusting that it makes me weep for those who claim to be compassionate. You don't fight hatred with more hatred. You don't fight those who would abuse and destroy people for simply being what they are by doing the same to them. You take the moral high ground in the proper way.

Sure, this guy was in the SS, but does that somehow make him automatically "evil" or what have you? Of course not. Furthermore, there is no proof that he committed any sort of war crime while a member of the SS.

You have to let these things go. If you just keep acting as if someone who was associated with some particular thing MUST be bad, you are no better than those you claim to fight. Indeed, I would call you exactly the same, because you show the same attitudes. It disgusts me and sickens me to see people here like IDF saying they'd gladly kill him if given the chance. Congratulations on proving once again that people who claim the moral high ground often stand merely upon a muddy hill ready to give way at the first sign of pressure.

Those damn nazi bastards killed 10 million people. They are paying the price.

Soviet communists killed 70 million people. They are not paying the price and the whole western world don't give a s**t. Moreover if anyone, starts arguing the fact that nazi Germany started the ww2, it is usually considered as nazism and anti-Semitism.

Ahh, such a beautiful world...

By my reading of this, he did commit a crime.He lied on his citizenship application about his membership of the SS.

Right. Erm.

For starters, he didn't get to pick where he was getting deployed, and secondly, the Waffen SS weren't the ones doing the various "Einsatz" shennanigans.

Plus, when he was stationed there, it was 1942. Which is a point at which the whole gassing thing hadn't yet been discovered, and due to a soldier's, and especially a Waffen SS man's training, snooping around a prison camp whne you were supposed to be on guard dog duty wasn't going to be your first concern.

The Liebstandarte did some extremely bad things, such as shooting Allied POWs, but then there are plenty of instances of Allied forces shooting Axis POWs, too.

Probably not a very good man, but I'm not sure he's worth deporting.

The SS were a kind of Special Forces, yes. The 'elite', their Praetorian Guard.
The real special forces of the Wehrmacht (well... really the Abwehr to begin with) were the Brandenburger Regiment, who were basically like a German version of the SAS, charged with long-range patrols and other such tasks, until the Eastern Front led to them basically being used as a shock battalion.

The Waffen SS were basically just extremely politicised soldiers who were sent to lead up attacks, because they would take extremely heavy casualties, more than anything else. If anything, they were worse equipped and were only trained, in proper training terms, as much as the regular infantry.

They were dogmatically loyal, which is why they were used essentially like a 16th century 'Forlorn Hope', to soak up ammunition and lower enemy morale before a main assault wave hit.
And btw there's not one SS. But at least 6 groups of SS divisions. Probably he was part of the SS-Totenkopfverbände.
He was in the Liebstandarte, it quite clearly states it in the article
He was still not in charge or a leader.
Quite.

I think the posters on this thread are missing the point here- whether or not he committed war crimes isn't relevant to whether he will be deported. It appears to be a question of whether or not he lied on his immigration papers.

If he did, that's a big no-no, and a cause for deportation.

I think he did lie on his immigration papers, but for obvious reasons.

It doesn't matter if he was Hitler's personal assassin, 50 years is way too long a period of time for anyone to bear a grudge against him. Especially if he's spent the intervening years quietly.
Nazi Hunters are the worst kind of scum.

It implies he was at those places when he taught them to train the dogs which mean he fully knew where and how these dogs were going to be used for.

Which is different from attack dogs used in prisons around the world how?

There is a huge difference between a a conscripted soldier and a member of the SS.

Your argument is based on falacies or a complete lack of knowledge on your part in regards to history.

Your argument to its logical extension would mean killing the laborers who built the prison, people who brought in food supplies, and a fair number of upper echelon IBM managers (probably retired or dead by now).

No, ordinary soldiers were in the Germany Army. This guy was in the SS. You fail.
So?

The SS still had a chain of command. He was an order taker, not an order giver.

It was extremely difficult to get out of the Waffen SS, even more so the LSAH, and into the Wehrmacht. It would look suspect indeed if he was trying to leave a concentration camp guard duty job in 1942, when German's own resistance movements really started up.

I can't honestly say I blame him, especially since he was in the Hitler Youth all of the way through his impressionable years. I'm sure he feels remorse for what he did.

ONE OF THE FoLLOWING SHOULD BE DONE:
he should be electrouted without the sponge on the head for 10 sec
he should be sent to isreal(theyll fuck him up!)
he should be sent to prison(nazi were antigay so hell enjoy the anal loving)
they should make him put into the same situation as the jews were in!
used as target practice by blackwater usa(retards should shoot better)
burned at the stake
fucked by every rapist in the world
being beaten up by every group bullied by nazis(very long line no?)
or all of the above

We don't need trials and courts, all we need to do is ask the accused if he did it. If he says no, we let him go. That's pretty damned easy.

IDF and Homeland Security want to forgo trials and courts though. All they need is some connection to the SS, and one wants to commit murder, the other one wants to deport using McCarthy style judgment.

Also is it just me or when the only punishment for not wanting to guard the death camps would be a change of uniforms or a demotion would seem acceptable to me?

Death camp prisoners received specific uniforms and showers was often an euphemism for gas chambers. It's what the soon to be gassed people thought they were.

Since nazi's were the most evil people to walk the earth he should be gang raped, castrated, stoned, then burned to death.

Since nazi's were the most evil people to walk the earth
So says someone who has evidently lead a very sheltered life.

Boy, the sheer ignorance, arrogance, aggression and hatred in this thread seem to know no bounds... and all directed at an 85-year-old dog trainer....

Since nazi's were the most evil people to walk the earth he should be gang raped, castrated, stoned, then burned to death.
Adolf Hitler and his motley crew were extremely evil.

20-year olds who joined a force advertised as a warrior elite, which then turned out to be doing extremely bad things, which they couldn't do much about, had misspent youths.

I don't think we can really blame the guy for working at a prison camp. Come on.

Boy, the sheer ignorance, arrogance, aggression and hatred in this thread seem to know no bounds... and all directed at an 85-year-old dog trainer....

Maybe they were bitten by a dog at some point of time during their formative years. :p

Since nazi's were the most evil people to walk the earth he should be gang raped, castrated, stoned, then burned to death.

Because that proves we're so much more civilised than they were, right?

Has anyone actually stopped to think just how guilt-ridden this chap might be? I mean for over six decades he's had to live with the fact his national government killed millions, and he was part of the armed forces during the time the killing was going on. I don't know about you lot, but that'd tear me apart inside, it's the kinda thing that would eat away at you every day of your life, and it might just be enough of a punishment for an 85 year old.

So says someone who has evidently lead a very sheltered life.

Then who could possibly be more evil than the scumbag nazis?

Then who could possibly be more evil than the scumbag nazis?
Just keep in mind that this guy wasn't a scumbag Nazi. He was someone who got caught up in the times.

Plenty of people join up to the US Marines because they're seen as a strong, macho warrior elite. To an extent (no offense to any Marines meant), the Waffen SS was a similar group. It was about helping Germany fight evil Bolsheviki, in a similar way as the USMC are now about helping the US to fight for freedom and suchlike.

So meh. Let the poor guy live with it.

Adolf Hitler and his motley crew were extremely evil.

20-year olds who joined a force advertised as a warrior elite, which then turned out to be doing extremely bad things, which they couldn't do much about, had misspent youths.

I don't think we can really blame the guy for working at a prison camp. Come on.

Why are you sticking up for scumbag nazis? You obviously support Hitler!

Then who could possibly be more evil than the scumbag nazis?

Nazi's who actually, you know, did evil things?

But oh wait. According to you, every person involved with the Waffen SS, no matter how remote, is a Nazi and should be executed.

I guess you want to exterminate all Germans next.

Why are you standing up for scumbag nazis? You obviously support Hitler!
You're a total fucking tool.

I don't support Hitler in the slightest, I can simply empathise with people who got caught up with the patriotism of the times.

This guy wasn't particularly complicit in the horrors of the Holocaust. He was simply doing his job, and his job was to train attack dogs. That they were quite possibly used to keep Jews in concentration camps is absolutely correct. That that's particularly what he wanted, or, more to the point, that he knew what was going on, is quite clearly untrue.

Then who could possibly be more evil than the scumbag nazis?

Define "evil".
If you use "evil" as synonym of "violent and brutal", just have a look at the last 50 years in human history. They've brought us the delights of the Red Khmer, Stalinist Gulags, Idi Amin, the conflict between Hutus and Tutsis, the genocides in Bosnia, Saddam Hussein's attacks on the Kurds, and many many more.

Stalin is responsible for an estimated 10 million deaths, and the Red Khmer killed a stagering 30% of the entire population of Cambodia.

Nazi Germany was a place that prized loyalty and conformity; to disobey orders was death. Even the most compassionate citizen was probably driven to extremes in order to ensure their survival.

Yes at the Nuremberg trials it was demonstrated that, "I was just following orders" was not accepted but this alibi came from Nazi officers and not soldiers.

Disobedience from soldiers has always been punished, even in contemporary America. I believe refusal to carry out an order carries repercussions, including court-martial.

Am I defending him? No, but I am showing that there is certain amount of fear that pervaded German society at the time. People lived in fear because of the Gestapo. Failure to follow orders carried a heavy price. Being apart of the Nazi Youth, the SS, or any other organization of Nazi Germany didn't protect one if the spoke out or refused to carry out an order. Even being the slightest bit different could have landed one in trouble.

Then who could possibly be more evil than the scumbag nazis?
Simply donning a uniform, ever how unpopular, isn't an evil deed. Admittedly, they did help support unpleasant people, but that still doesn't make them any worse than non-Nazis like Vlad the Impaler or the man who invented Crocodile Shears.

"Nazi's who actually, you know, did evil things?"
-Which is all of them!

"But oh wait. According to you, every person involved with the Waffen SS, no matter how remote, is a Nazi and should be executed."
-Yes.

"I guess you want to exterminate all Germans next."
-Yes.

Also, anybody who supports nazis are sticks up for them should be killed too.

"Nazi's who actually, you know, did evil things?"
-Which is all of them!
Of the Nazi people at the top, yes, they did evil things.

Of the average German at the time, they were taken with the times. There were good Germans and bad ones, just as there were good British and bad British at the time.

History has simply distorted this image.
"But oh wait. According to you, every person involved with the Waffen SS, no matter how remote, is a Nazi and should be executed."
-Yes.
Right. It's clear at this point that you have no idea.
"I guess you want to exterminate all Germans next."
-Yes.
You're a disgrace, and thinking like that makes you a Neo Nazi.
Also, anybody who supports nazis are sticks up for them should be killed too.
Oh, oh the irony.

Stalin isn't evil because he was allied with America in WW2.

*lol
You're a troll, but you're funny nevertheless.

Stalin isn't evil because he was allied with America in WW2.
The Kmher Rouge was supported by America in the 1970s. Does this make them OK too?

Stalin isn't evil because he was allied with America in WW2.

Duh.
Ah, ok. You're a joke poster. 'Nuff said.

The Kmher Rouge was supported by America in the 1970s. Does this make them OK too?

Duh.

Ah, ok. You're a joke poster. 'Nuff said.

I'd say he's FAG, but FAG tended towards long winded super patriotic crap.

Some hard-core Nazi hunters have discovered a former Nazi SS member living the rest of his life peacefully in Atlanta. Homeland Security wants to deport him. What do ya'll think?

link (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/14243131/detail.html)

Well, as long as he gets a fair trial, I see no problem with it.

Where I see a problem is ensuring that he actually gets a fair trial.

[QUOTE=Tekania;13101848]I also do not believe that knowledge makes him a war-criminal. If mere knowlege made one a criminal, then kitchen staff would have been getting shot, merely for being at a particular camp, and knowing what the people in charge were doing there.

QUOTE]

I would agree with you when it concers only kitchen staff however I don't think its a suitable anolagy.

There is a difference between kitchen staff at a camp who knew about the holocaust and for example an ss guard at Auschwitz who knows that the people he was gaurding would be "destroyed". The former is essentially powerless to stop it (The question arises if perhaps he should at least do something about it, but then again, what would you do if you were in their shoes? The sad fact is probably the same: nothing) while the latter is contributing directly to the crime.

In this case we should ask ourselves if training guard dogs is suitable enough to make you a direct participant of the crime. In my opinion, if we assume everything in the article is true and he has done nothing else, then we should probably let the matter rest.

As for the matter of history being written by the victor, yes thats quite true, however be happy that the Nazi's were not able to write it instead.

I also find the argument that all sides in WW II commited war crimes to be moot at best. Yes the fire-bombing of japan was horrible, but how does it justify the crimes against humanity at the death camps? Do two wrongs suddenly make both right? Or is it an attempt to show us the hypocrisy of it all? In that case, I welcome you to our human existance.

I concur, I was just illustrating from the fact of the matter of him saying that he did not know what was happening. Simply knowing about it isn't enough. And I concur that him merely being a dog trainer is not enough as well, I would expect someone only to be guilty in cases where they were directly connected to the Nazi atrocities.

In 1945, there were 800 000 men serving in the SS. All sort of people, from frightened 15 year old boys (who usually had been drafted by the Nazi authorities) to the butcherers who had organised the extermination of jews, gypsies, etc.
It would be pointless to attempt to punish all of these, and quite unfair.

If this man had tried to desert from his unit, or help the jews in any way, he would have been executed. It would have serious consequences for his familiy as well.

Why are you sticking up for scumbag nazis? You obviously support Hitler!LOL... IDF #2 :D

No, ordinary soldiers were in the Germany Army. This guy was in the SS. You fail.

Depends on which branch.

The Totenkopfverbände ran the concentration camps.
The Verfügungstruppe were combat units.

This guy was Verfügungstruppe and transfered into Totenkopfverbände.

I guess you can get him on guilt by association.

Personally, I would like to see more records on his actions; rather then condemning him by news paper articles.

Which is different from attack dogs used in prisons around the world how?

Well it could be just me, but I would think there is a slight difference in using an attack dog to guard convicted felons and an attack dog used on political prisoners and people inprisoned due to their genetic make-up.

Then it would matter if you did or didn't know where those dogs were going.
I could make a gun for cops or I can make them for criminals.

Does it make him a war criminal? Probably not, but it doesn't make him a saint either.

Why are you sticking up for scumbag nazis? You obviously support Hitler!

Why should someone who trained dogs be killed just because of his beliefs and loose association with the Nazi party? How does being opposed to pointless murder make you a Hitler supporter?

Do you really think I would support Hitler despite the fact that my relatives were gassed by him?

Who cares that he's a former Nazi?
He's not out oppressing Jews now, is he?
He's just trying to live in peace, leave him be.
If he starts acting up, then figure out what to do about it.

From the article he doesn't seem guilty of anything. Training guard dogs is not a crime. More facts would be needed about his career in the SS to be sure of his guilt or innocense, but he doesn't appear guilty. Let him stay and live out his days in peace.

Are you certain you've read the article? Besides being a nazi, he was also a willing member of the SS, who guarded prisoners of the Dachau concentration camp.

Being a nazi in those days doesn't automatically a war criminal, but being a member of the waffen ss, while stationed at dachau of all places, makes it a bit harder to proclaim your moral innocence.

Exactly. It's one thing to be a soldier shooting at the enemy, it's quite another to be partaking in a genocide. Deport the fucker.

:mp5:

Duh.

Well....to your logic.

Do you think that Osama Bin Laden is a good guy? I want your answer before I give you the cold hard facts.

Exactly. It's one thing to be a soldier shooting at the enemy, it's quite another to be partaking in a genocide. Deport the fucker.

:mp5:

Except he didn't execute anyone. He trained guard dogs.
Do you think Police K-9 handlers should be deported because they guard prisoners, even death row inmates, and track down ones that escape.

He was Waffen SS, and Germany doesn't have the death penalty, so I don't see any problem with deporting his wrinkly old Nazi ass.

"I guess you want to exterminate all Germans next."
-Yes.

Right, you just said you wanna kill me and my family. It's personal. When do you want your ass kicked? Come down to Melbourne any time, motherfucker.

He was Waffen SS, and Germany doesn't have the death penalty, so I don't see any problem with deporting his wrinkly old Nazi ass.

While we're at it, let's deport the Gitmo guards to the ME for punishment.

Easy Ferrous. Don't get yourself in trouble over him.....

Some hard-core Nazi hunters have discovered a former Nazi SS member living the rest of his life peacefully in Atlanta. Homeland Security wants to deport him. What do ya'll think?

link (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/14243131/detail.html)

He doesn't deserve that unless he still wants to kill the Jews.

Then it would matter if you did or didn't know where those dogs were going.
I could make a gun for cops or I can make them for criminals.
Or you can be Swiss and make a profit.

I don't think history books would read the same had Germany won the war in Europe, and I think that's the point being made as far as history bing written by the victors goes.

As for personal accounts, they're always going to be different from what the govenment line would have been, but I have to wonder how many books written by former SS soldiers would be published if they went against the accepted Nazi=Evil grain.

As for the accussed SS fellows fate, if it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt he commited a crime, he should be punished. However, deporting a man of that age doesn't seem a suitable punishment, although at that age I don't know what would be.

Some of the books I read didn't follow the Nazi=evil bit...some went into personal accounts about internal struggles with morals and such...and then some went along the "I would do it all again in a heartbeat" line.....

Of course history would be different if Germany won...though history books written by them would probably be more along the lines of propaganda than actual history..something along the lines of "See the Aryan's really are superior human race"....would likely be a theme in the new text books..and the further dehumanization of gypsies jews homosexuals etc etc would also be rampant through the new text books..

Lastly as for the whole guy being punished the whole "I was just following orders" isn't a valid defense..and like I said before it is amazing and troubling how many SS and Gestapo officers were allowed off scot free after years of persecution and murder to "unwanted people"..and that of their own German citizens...

Leave the poor bastard alone, He's 85, I mean what is he going to do, start up the Nazi Party in America? I say if he eluded the authorities this long, then he deserves to stay here.

Stalin isn't evil because he was allied with America in WW2.

Actually at first we wanted Russia and Germany to just fight each other and end up destroying themselves....Russia was like China today..we don't particularly like them but we have to get along with them anyways

Stalin isn't even because he was allied with the US in WW2? WTF.... So, if the US allied with Hitler they wouldn't have been evil?

I think he deserves to live out his life peacefully in the US if he wishes.

Just give me a pistol and I'll end his miserable existence.

The guy is 85, he's going to die soon anyway.

He is a war criminal, and there is no statute of limitations on war crimes.

Except, he's not a war criminal.

He is a war criminal, and there is no statute of limitations on war crimes.

If he wanted to he'd be perfectly within his rights to start a Nazi Party in America. In fact I believe there already is one. This is not about what he could do. This is about what he did.

Which is great, because he did about as much as my dad did in Vietnam. Actually, he did less; my dad shot people, this guy just trained dogs.

Leave the poor bastard alone, He's 85, I mean what is he going to do, start up the Nazi Party in America?

If he wanted to he'd be perfectly within his rights to start a Nazi Party in America. In fact I believe there already is one. This is not about what he could do. This is about what he did.

He is a war criminal, and there is no statute of limitations on war crimes.

Guilty until proven innocent?

He is a war criminal, and there is no statute of limitations on war crimes.

no, he's not.

He is a war criminal, and there is no statute of limitations on war crimes.
I think that the Nazi-hunters would have made it much clearer that he was a war criminal than yourself, and they obviously didn't.

He was a dog trainer, he wasn't an Einsatzgruppe member ffs.
This is not about what he could do. This is about what he did.
Trained dogs?

Woah thar! Super baddie alert!

Guilty until proven innocent?

I was unaware he had been convicted of anything. Or, in other words, maybe you should use the proper standards in the proper places. He's not facing criminal charges. He is, however, an alien, who remains in the United States as the leisure of the united states government. They don't need to convict him to kick him out.

He trained attack dogs, and used them to keep prisoners in death camps.

So you are saying that Policemen with K-9 dogs which vicously attack druggies are war criminals? Attack dogs. Boo-hoo.

Trained dogs?

Woah thar! Super baddie alert!

“The brutal concentration camp system could not have functioned without the determined efforts of SS men such as Paul Henss, who, with a vicious attack dog, stood between these victims and the possibility of freedom.”

He trained attack dogs, and used them to keep prisoners in death camps.

Couple of corrections...
-- It's Lawrenceville, not Atlanta, but close enough for those of you with only a public school education.

-- HS is deporting him, not wants to deport him. The process just takes time.

The amazing thing is that popular opinion is to let him stay. Must be the influx of yankees that have infested North Georgia that tips public opinion in such a obscene way.

Excuse me, sir, but I live not 20 minutes away from there. My friend lives down the street from that man, and public opinion around here has nothing to do with being a Yankee. I've lived here my whole and can honestly say that this forum is the first place I've actually heard anyone say he should be deported or really dealt with in any way.

He's just a poor old man now. Yes, he trained Nazi attack dogs when he was younger, but it was that or be declared an enemy to the Nazi party.

If this man is going to be judged for things he did to avoid being prosecuted by a fascist government, why not judge the Pope the same way? He was in Hitler Youth, after all. More than 60 years ago this man had little choice other than to aid in war crimes, and the Pope had to be a member of Hitler Youth. Unless you care to admit to some sort of double standard where Catholics aren't judged the same, then the Pope too should be condemned.

Which is great, because he did about as much as my dad did in Vietnam. Actually, he did less; my dad shot people, this guy just trained dogs.

That's nice. Tell me...is your father welcome in North Vietnam these days? Do you think the vietnamese government would give him a visa, let him stay and buy a home, settle in, if they found out what he had done and kept it hidden from them?

That's nice. Tell me...is your father welcome in North Vietnam these days? Do you think the vietnamese government would give him a visa, let him stay and buy a home, settle in, if they found out what he had done and kept it hidden from them?

Sure they would. There's mutual respect on both sides now. They got over it. Like normal people.

Did you seriously mean to compare the six million jews who were rounded up into death camps and executed to criminals?

He was young. It was either he does the job and approves the Nazi regime or get killed. Oh, or you can try to run away to some other country, risk getting captured, and if you do, get killed...>.> Which would you choose?

Did you seriously mean to compare the six million jews who were rounded up into death camps and executed to criminals?

Technically, it's a legitimate comparison. Both petty criminals and the Jews of WWII Europe were criminals in their countries.

He trained attack dogs, and used them to keep prisoners in death camps.
People didn't know that they were death camps until well into 1943, and to be honest, attack dogs were used in Allied POW camps, and are used today in prisons and so on and so forth.

He was no war criminal, any more than Allied dog handlers.

Yes, the average citizen may not have known, but the guards in the camps sure as fuck did.

Oh yeah, I'd like to see you stand up to the Nazi war machine, keyboard hero.

So you are saying that Policemen with K-9 dogs which vicously attack druggies are war criminals?

Did you seriously mean to compare the six million jews who were rounded up into death camps and executed to criminals?

People didn't know that they were death camps until well into 1943,

Actually I'm fairly certain that the Nuremburg trials explicitly rejected the arguments of many guards that they "did not know what was going on." Yes, the average citizen may not have known, but the guards in the camps sure as fuck did.

and to be honest, attack dogs were used in Allied POW camps, and are used today in prisons and so on and so forth.

He was no war criminal, any more than Allied dog handlers.

I'll ask you the same question. Did you seriously mean to compare soldiers captured during war and convicted criminals to six million jews who were rounded up into death camps and executed?

Did you seriously mean to compare the six million jews who were rounded up into death camps and executed to criminals?
Do you seriously mean to say that this man was directly complicit in an activity he had a) no idea was going on until it was too late, and b) could do abso-fucking-lutely nothing about?

Did you seriously mean to compare the six million jews who were rounded up into death camps and executed to criminals?

Let's not forget the other ten million gypsies, Catholics, and anyone else the Nazis decided to hate.

He was young.

That's nice. That's not what I asked you. Did you mean to compare the use of dogs to apprehend and guard criminals to the use of dogs to keep in innocent people who were executed by the millions in death camps.

Do you hold the use of both to be equally legitimate? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Actually I'm fairly certain that the Nuremburg trials explicitly rejected the arguments of many guards that they "did not know what was going on." Yes, the average citizen may not have known, but the guards in the camps sure as fuck did.
This guy wasn't the kind of guard that stood at the 'shower' doors. This man was on the perimeter training dogs. He probably had little idea of what was going on, and, more to the point, could do absolutely nothing about it.

That's nice. That's not what I asked you. Did you mean to compare the use of dogs to apprehend and guard criminals to the use of dogs to keep in innocent people who were executed by the millions in death camps.

Do you hold the use of both to be equally legitimate? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Why don't you read my post. It's not that hard to answer.

Look at the firebombing of Dresden. Perfect war crime by Allied Powers. Were any of them tried? Nooooo. Dresden held NO military or economic importance WHATSOEVER. Please explain why the Allied Generals were not tried. They Won! That's why! Thus, they automatically make the rules...

This guy wasn't the kind of guard that stood at the 'shower' doors. This man was on the perimeter training dogs. He probably had little idea of what was going on, and, more to the point, could do absolutely nothing about it.

well then, that's certainly a good defense at his deportation hearing, isn't it? He'll get his hearing, let him present his side. If he truly had nothing to do with it and was innocent of the more barbarous acts, then so be it.

But if not, he certainly as hell doesn't deserve to be in this country.

60 years later? No thanks. There isn't a statute of limitations or something?

Cute. But still...not what I asked you.

I already answered your question. Stop dodging my point.

You fail...horribly...comparing people rounded up based only on sexual preference or ethnicity or political opponents to criminals...

Police attack dogs are used to subdue criminals evading capture...or get them out of hiding...and/or sniff for drugs explosives etc etc..

There are accounts of concentration camp victims being given over to Nazi guard dogs and having them torn to pieces by the animals..

That wasn't very nice. Hmmm...In a concentration camp, which would know more about operations, a dog handler or the Captain of the Camp. Lol, not so hard to comprehend.

I disagree. There are accounts of police attack dogs having criminals torn to pieces.

Look at the firebombing of Dresden.

Cute. But still...not what I asked you.

So you are saying that Policemen with K-9 dogs which vicously attack druggies are war criminals? Attack dogs. Boo-hoo.

You fail...horribly...comparing people rounded up based only on sexual preference or ethnicity or political opponents to criminals...

Police attack dogs are used to subdue criminals evading capture...or get them out of hiding...and/or sniff for drugs explosives etc etc..

There are accounts of concentration camp victims being given over to Nazi guard dogs and having them torn to pieces by the animals..

He was young...okay so if some teenager goes about shooting up Burger King and they get away...and only get caught 20 years later they should be forgiven because they were young...?..your method of thinking is laughable

Yootopia are you saying a guard on the perimeter of a concentration camp would have no idea what was going on "deeper" in the camp? I highly doubt thats what you're saying...so what do you mean by perimeter exactly?

You're damned right it is.

He'll be kicked out. Mainly because some of more influential areas of the Jewish populaton of America would create an absolute shitstorm of publicity about it if he isn't, whether he's innocent of being a war criminal or not. Sad but true.

Teh ebil j00s!

pshaw, he's just an innocent old man, after all. He couldn't do ANYTHING about that. After all, he wasn't one of those evil nazis, he said so himself. Look at that innocent old man, he couldn't POSSIBLY do ANYTHING evil.

Obviously not a bad man at all, you can tell just by looking at him. Just like this fellow:

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/US/06/06/nazi.crimes/story.eichmann.gi.jpg

You're comparing a dog trainer to Eichmann? Right, there goes your credibility.

well then, that's certainly a good defense at his deportation hearing, isn't it?
You're damned right it is.
He'll get his hearing, let him present his side. If he truly had nothing to do with it and was innocent of the more barbarous acts, then so be it.

But if not, he certainly as hell doesn't deserve to be in this country.
He'll be kicked out. Mainly because some of more influential areas of the Jewish populaton of America would create an absolute shitstorm of publicity about it if he isn't, whether he's innocent of being a war criminal or not. Sad but true.

You cannot blame the death of 6 million on one man, unless his name is Hitler or Dr Goebells, and I believe they are both dead.

How many people such as Lyndie England, who regularly beat up prisoners in Abu Ghraib, and made them do things against the laws of Islam, do you see nowadays with a crowd baying for their blood?

This man trained dogs. Dogs! We are talking about the same thing right? Canis lupus familiaris? Good. Now, no-one in the German army knew about the gassings until around 1942. When some heard, they were sick. Physically.

These 2 points need to be resaid.

1)This man is 85. Imagine the internal feelings of knowing you helped your Government kill 6 million people isn't that punishment enough? He's nearly dead, leave him alone.

2) The current Pope was also a Nazi in the Hitler Youth. Going by your thinking, he should be excommunicated, and for 11 of you, he should be executed.

But your arguement is that his Catholic faith has saved him? How'd you know if this guys Catholic or not? If I were in his position, I would pray every single night. (Even though Im a freakin' atheist!)

There are accounts of concentration camp victims being given over to Nazi guard dogs and having them torn to pieces by the animals..

pshaw, he's just an innocent old man, after all. He couldn't do ANYTHING about that. After all, he wasn't one of those evil nazis, he said so himself. Look at that innocent old man, he couldn't POSSIBLY do ANYTHING evil.

Obviously not a bad man at all, you can tell just by looking at him. Just like this fellow:

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/US/06/06/nazi.crimes/story.eichmann.gi.jpg

60 years later? No thanks. There isn't a statute of limitations or something?

On most laws, yes. On war crimes, however, there is none. 60ish years after the fact, after he's left Germany, after he's tried to put his past behind him, after he's had to go to sleep every night for the last 60 years knowing who his dogs were being used against and what they were being used for, this old man is being called out and forced to remember it all again and justify to people he's never met why he did things he had little choice in doing.

Ooooh, right on. It was about time in this thread for a zionist conspiracy theory.

Once again, don't dodge the points. Yootopia has a valid point.

I really don't give a fuck. "But I feel really REALLY bad about it" isn't a defense. If he is guilty, I really don't give a fuck about how bad he feels about it.

GUILTY OF WHAT? Training dogs. Right, fuck you. I'm going to use your logic against you, to make you complicit of war crimes in Iraq. What's your job?

He'll be kicked out. Mainly because some of more influential areas of the Jewish populaton of America would create an absolute shitstorm of publicity about it if he isn't, whether he's innocent of being a war criminal or not. Sad but true.

Ooooh, right on. It was about time in this thread for a zionist conspiracy theory.

Once again, don't dodge the points. Yootopia has a valid point.

That the jews are going to force this guy out of the country?

Nice.

1)This man is 85. Imagine the internal feelings of knowing you helped your Government kill 6 million people isn't that punishment enough? He's nearly dead, leave him alone.

I really don't give a fuck. "But I feel really REALLY bad about it" isn't a defense. If he is guilty, I really don't give a fuck about how bad he feels about it.

pshaw, he's just an innocent old man, after all. He couldn't do ANYTHING about that. After all, he wasn't one of those evil nazis, he said so himself. Look at that innocent old man, he couldn't POSSIBLY do ANYTHING evil.

Obviously not a bad man at all, you can tell just by looking at him. Just like this fellow:

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/US/06/06/nazi.crimes/story.eichmann.gi.jpg
Oh, nice.

Excellent way to cripple your own argument by being a complete tool about the issue.

Well I wasn't saying HE specifically did something like basically feeding people to dogs...but the argument that "he just trained guard dogs" is bogus..

Still gonna have to disagree. Read all of my, Yootopia, and others previous points about the dog handling, please.

GUILTY OF WHAT? Training dogs. Right, fuck you. I'm going to use your logic against you, to make you complicit of war crimes in Iraq. What's your job?

IF he is guilty. Which is not for you, or me to decide. And frankly, it isn't something that needs deciding, because this isn't an issue of being charged...this is an issue of the power of the US government to deport those they no longer wish living in the country. You're arguing the wrong thing.

I really don't give a fuck. "But I feel really REALLY bad about it" isn't a defense. If he is guilty, I really don't give a fuck about how bad he feels about it.

I'll remember that for if you ever insult someone and get banned.

No, I'm comparing people on this board who claim that this man was oh so very innocent because...well...he said he was, and could have had nothing to do with it because he's just an old man and we should let him go to the kind of people who would have said the same about Adolph Eichmann, because he lookedl ike such a kind old man.


Lmfao. I said that he didn't know anything about the thing, NOT that he is an old man. Get yours facts straight.

pshaw, he's just an innocent old man, after all. He couldn't do ANYTHING about that. After all, he wasn't one of those evil nazis, he said so himself. Look at that innocent old man, he couldn't POSSIBLY do ANYTHING evil.

Obviously not a bad man at all, you can tell just by looking at him. Just like this fellow:

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/US/06/06/nazi.crimes/story.eichmann.gi.jpg

Well I wasn't saying HE specifically did something like basically feeding people to dogs...but the argument that "he just trained guard dogs" is bogus..

You know, everyone is still avoiding the awkward fact the current Pope was in the Hitler youth.

What should be done about the Pope, then?

Yes, Gat and Neo Art are avoiding that point. xD

You know, everyone is still avoiding the awkward fact the current Pope was in the Hitler youth.

What should be done about the Pope, then?

Sorry...is he living in the US?

No?

What's your point then?

Ooooh, right on. It was about time in this thread for a zionist conspiracy theory.
Oh, please. I don't go in for this 'world Jewish conspiracy' stuff.

It's just quite obvious that the Jewish community in the states is going to make noises about this case, and even if they didn't, a judge and jury, though ostensibly neutral, are going to have trouble letting an SS man go free.

pshaw, he's just an innocent old man, after all. He couldn't do ANYTHING about that. After all, he wasn't one of those evil nazis, he said so himself. Look at that innocent old man, he couldn't POSSIBLY do ANYTHING evil.

Obviously not a bad man at all, you can tell just by looking at him. Just like this fellow:

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/US/06/06/nazi.crimes/story.eichmann.gi.jpg

You are right. We should have punished this fellow as well:

http://www.deathcamps.info/photos/Albums/Album1/Large/9.jpg

You're comparing a dog trainer to Eichmann? Right, there goes your credibility.

No, I'm comparing people on this board who claim that this man was oh so very innocent because...well...he said he was, and could have had nothing to do with it because he's just an old man and we should let him go to the kind of people who would have said the same about Adolph Eichmann, because he lookedl ike such a kind old man.

Frankly speaking I don't trust the word of a former SS officer. I don't trust the word of someone stationed and Dashau. I don't trust the word of someone who says that all those Nazis were horrible people but oh, no, not him. never him. He would have NEVER done it if he knew about it. No no, of course not!

The same thing that dozens of nazi war criminals have said. And I don't trust any one of them one god damned bit. He'll have his hearing. If he can demonstrate it, then fine. If not, he sure as hell doesn't deserve to be in this country. And frankly speaking, I don't find the word of a Nazi SS to be all that credible.

Well I wasn't saying HE specifically did something like basically feeding people to dogs...but the argument that "he just trained guard dogs" is bogus..

Bogus and most likely true...? How does that work?

Right. This is the exact same thing that's going to happen in the courts.

"I'm no war criminal, I didn't like what was going on but couldn't do a damned thing about it, I was only a dog trainer, and whilst I know that I am quite possible for the deaths of innocent people, it's not like I was actively trying to kill as many as possible"
"yeah, but you were in the SS, time to leave"

Quote For Truth! That, and, it was the dog trainer does the job or be deemed a traitor to Germany and possibley killed.

I'll remember that for if you ever insult someone and get banned.

If I ever insult someone and get banned I gaurentee you I meant every word of the insult.

You know, everyone is still avoiding the awkward fact the current Pope was in the Hitler youth.

What should be done about the Pope, then?

No, I'm comparing people on this board who claim that this man was oh so very innocent because...well...he said he was, and could have had nothing to do with it because he's just an old man and we should let him go to the kind of people who would have said the same about Adolph Eichmann, because he lookedl ike such a kind old man.

Frankly speaking I don't trust the word of a former SS officer. I don't trust the word of someone stationed and Dashau. I don't trust the word of someone who says that all those Nazis were horrible people but oh, no, not him. never him. He would have NEVER done it if he knew about it. No no, of course not!

The same thing that dozens of nazi war criminals have said. And I don't trust any one of them one god damned bit. He'll have his hearing. If he can demonstrate it, then fine. If not, he sure as hell doesn't deserve to be in this country. And frankly speaking, I don't find the word of a Nazi SS to be all that credible.

While we're at it, let's go get the Pope, everyone else who was in Hitler Youth (the vast majority of children in Germany at the time), and everyone who worked with the Nazis in any way, like janitors, cooks, and hospital workers! Yeah! That'll show those THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO WEREN'T THE ONES PLANNING AND ORGANIZING THE HOLOCAUST.

Oh, please. I don't go in for this 'world Jewish conspiracy' stuff.

It's just quite obvious that the Jewish community in the states is going to make noises about this case, and even if they didn't, a judge and jury, though ostensibly neutral, are going to have trouble letting an SS man go free.

Funny. I was not aware there was a jury at a deportation hearing...

No, I'm comparing people on this board who claim that this man was oh so very innocent because...well...he said he was, and could have had nothing to do with it because he's just an old man and we should let him go to the kind of people who would have said the same about Adolph Eichmann, because he lookedl ike such a kind old man.

Frankly speaking I don't trust the word of a former SS officer. I don't trust the word of someone stationed and Dashau. I don't trust the word of someone who says that all those Nazis were horrible people but oh, no, not him. never him. He would have NEVER done it if he knew about it. No no, of course not!

The same thing that dozens of nazi war criminals have said. And I don't trust any one of them one god damned bit. He'll have his hearing. If he can demonstrate it, then fine. If not, he sure as hell doesn't deserve to be in this country. And frankly speaking, I don't find the word of a Nazi SS to be all that credible.
Right. This is the exact same thing that's going to happen in the courts.

"I'm no war criminal, I didn't like what was going on but couldn't do a damned thing about it, I was only a dog trainer, and whilst I know that I am quite possible for the deaths of innocent people, it's not like I was actively trying to kill as many as possible"
"yeah, but you were in the SS, time to leave"

You know, everyone is still avoiding the awkward fact the current Pope was in the Hitler youth.

What should be done about the Pope, then?
Wasn't it mandatory to join up by the mid 1930s, and hence kind of irrelevant?

That'd be like saying "oh, man, this Israeli guy got drafted, which means he possibly killed some Palestinians". Again, not really their fault.
Funny. I was not aware there was a jury at a deportation hearing...
Oh, right, sorry, was unaware of how such things work in the US. Is it done as a tribunal over the pond?

I'm avoiding it because it's fucking stupid.

1) The hitler youth was a political organization. It's not a crime to be in a political organization. Political affiliation isn't illegal. It's what you DO in that political affiliation that matters

2) the pope is not a resident of the United States like this man is, so the fact that this man is facing a deportation hearing...really isn't relevant. He's not being arrested for anything. What are we gonna do about the fact that the pope was a hitler youth? deport him from a country he isn't a resident of?

3) even if this WERE a crime in the US, the pope is a head of state and immune from US laws.

What the holy fuck is your point, exactly?
I believe the point had more to do with the pope being in the same situation, yet nothing has been done about him.

You know, everyone is still avoiding the awkward fact the current Pope was in the Hitler youth.

What should be done about the Pope, then?

You left out he was in the army as well.

However, the argument involves a man in the US so the point has no merit here....

You know, everyone is still avoiding the awkward fact the current Pope was in the Hitler youth.

What should be done about the Pope, then?

I'm avoiding it because it's fucking stupid.

1) The hitler youth was a political organization. It's not a crime to be in a political organization. Political affiliation isn't illegal. It's what you DO in that political affiliation that matters

2) the pope is not a resident of the United States like this man is, so the fact that this man is facing a deportation hearing...really isn't relevant. He's not being arrested for anything. What are we gonna do about the fact that the pope was a hitler youth? deport him from a country he isn't a resident of?

3) even if this WERE a crime in the US, the pope is a head of state and immune from US laws.

What the holy fuck is your point, exactly?

Some hard-core Nazi hunters have discovered a former Nazi SS member living the rest of his life peacefully in Atlanta. Homeland Security wants to deport him. What do ya'll think?

link (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/14243131/detail.html)

I think it's a pathetic and disgraceful witch hunt.

There are doubtless thousands of former Communist party officials living in the United States and Western Europe, and they live their lives out peacefully. Pathetic.

While we're at it, let's go get the Pope, everyone else who was in Hitler Youth (the vast majority of children in Germany at the time), and everyone who worked with the Nazis in any way, like janitors, cooks, and hospital workers! Yeah! That'll show those THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO WEREN'T THE ONES PLANNING AND ORGANIZING THE HOLOCAUST.
Wow, get a little more hysterical. It's funny.

Here's a guide to this discussion.

TOPIC: deportation

There you go. Simple as that. He isn't being tried for war crimes (yet), nor is that in the cards in the US. Sorry, I'm sure it's much more fun to go on a caps lock rampage in your indignation to protect the good name of a poor, old man who just 'happened' to be an SS officer.

I wonder if you get all yelly when you find out some other kind of less old criminal hasn't been deported from your country...or maybe you cut people some slack once they reach 80?

No, I'm comparing people on this board who claim that this man was oh so very innocent because...well...he said he was, and could have had nothing to do with it because he's just an old man and we should let him go to the kind of people who would have said the same about Adolph Eichmann, because he lookedl ike such a kind old man.

Frankly speaking I don't trust the word of a former SS officer. I don't trust the word of someone stationed and Dashau. I don't trust the word of someone who says that all those Nazis were horrible people but oh, no, not him. never him. He would have NEVER done it if he knew about it. No no, of course not!

The same thing that dozens of nazi war criminals have said. And I don't trust any one of them one god damned bit. He'll have his hearing. If he can demonstrate it, then fine. If not, he sure as hell doesn't deserve to be in this country. And frankly speaking, I don't find the word of a Nazi SS to be all that credible.

Umm, I thought the legal system was based upon innocence till proven guilty, so wouldn't the state be required to demonstrate that he WAS a war criminal, he would not have to demonstrate anything.

Given that he was only there for 3 months (3 months total for both camps), and that he was assigned to a different branch of the SS then the ones running the camps, it does not seem at all likely he is guilty of any war crimes. As such, the state would need to demonstrate more then merely his association with the SS, his membership in the Nazi party, his childhood membership of the Hitler Youth, or his extremely brief visit to two Concentration Camps.

1) The hitler youth was a political organization. It's not a crime to be in a political organization. Political affiliation isn't illegal. It's what you DO in that political affiliation that matters

What the holy fuck is your point, exactly?

1) WTF are you on? It was a paramilitary organization of the Nazi Party. It existed from 1922 to 1945.

Paramilitary designates forces whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military force, but which are not regarded as having the same status.[1] The term uses the Greek/Latin prefix para- ("beside"), also seen in words such as paramedic.

The term paramilitary is subjective, depending on what is considered similar to a military force, and what status a force is considered to have. The nature of paramilitary forces therefore varies greatly according to the speaker and the context. For instance, in Northern Ireland, paramilitary refers to any illegally armed group, but in Colombia, paramilitary refers specifically to illegally armed groups which are considered right-wing (e.g. AUC), while illegally armed groups considered left-wing, such as FARC, are referred to as guerrillas.

Depending on context, paramilitaries can include:

Military forces outside the army, e.g. gendarmeries and forces such as the Indian Paramilitary Forces and People's Armed Police.
Illegal forces which consider themselves military but which governments consider terrorist, e.g. Provisional IRA, Ulster Volunteer Force, AUC, guerrillas.
Private armies and militias.
Militarized preexisting government agencies, such as SWAT teams. [2]
Youth groups and movements that can be considered 'militarized' to various degrees, the Hitler Youth movement being perhaps the most notorious example. Less nefarious modern examples include miltary cadet movements like the Royal Canadian Air Cadets, the American Civil Air Patrol and India's National Cadet Corps. Whether various global Boy Scout organizations fill the necessary criteria today or historically is a topic of debate.


Yeah, umm, your point is drugged.

Just give me a pistol and I'll end his miserable existence.

Of course, Mr. IDF has nothing to say of the NKVD/Kommisars who literally butchered tens of millions.

I believe the point had more to do with the pope being in the same situation, yet nothing has been done about him.

Again.

Sorry, is the Pope living in the US?

No?

Well that ends that, doesn't it?

Right. This is the exact same thing that's going to happen in the courts.

"I'm no war criminal, I didn't like what was going on but couldn't do a damned thing about it, I was only a dog trainer, and whilst I know that I am quite possible for the deaths of innocent people, it's not like I was actively trying to kill as many as possible"
"yeah, but you were in the SS, time to leave"

The thing is, I'm not a judge. And even if I was, I'm not in my official capacity here. Now if your argument is that a judge, motivated by the feelings of the holocaust, would be less inclined to give him a fair evaluation...well...I'd be willing to concede that much, that this is a possibility.

I would hope our judges however would be a bit more impartial than that.

Now, again, do I believe this man is guilty? I have no fucking idea. I do know that I really don't trust SS much, I know that guilt beyond reasonable doubt isn't necessary to deport someone, I know many Nazis claimed to be oh so very innocent and were in fact guilty as hell.

I don't know what the case is in this circumstance. If he is guilty, he doesn't deserve to be here. If he's innocent, let him be.

I have no idea which way it is, but then again, i'm not going to call him just a poor innocent old man because the Nazi says he was.

History is written by the Victors.. and projected by movie directors.

Precisely. Germany would've held war crimes trials for the Soviet Union's butchers had they won.

The thing is, I'm not a judge. And even if I was, I'm not in my official capacity here. Now if your argument is that a judge, motivated by the feelings of the holocaust, would be less inclined to give him a fair evaluation...well...I'd be willing to concede that much, that this is a possibility.

I would hope our judges however would be a bit more impartial than that.
I dunno.

I think it'd be quite hard to say to a man who you know was stationed at a concentration camp, that they were OK to be in your country.

Such things will never be neutral. Either people get labelled as Nazi sympathisers if they don't go along with what is probably a majority feeling that he should be kicked out, or that they're labelled as biased against him because they DO kick him out.

The holocaust is an issue with such historical weight that it's impossible to ignore one's own feelings on the matter, and you'd have to hope that people were 'prejudiced' against those even vaguely complicit in the act, mainly because human feelings suggest that the killing of millions of people is a Very Bad Thing, and people tied up in it are probably Super Baddies.

Wow, get a little more hysterical. It's funny.

Here's a guide to this discussion.

TOPIC: deportation

There you go. Simple as that. He isn't being tried for war crimes (yet), nor is that in the cards in the US. Sorry, I'm sure it's much more fun to go on a caps lock rampage in your indignation to protect the good name of a poor, old man who just 'happened' to be an SS officer.

I wonder if you get all yelly when you find out some other kind of less old criminal hasn't been deported from your country...or maybe you cut people some slack once they reach 80?

It wasn't so much yelling as it was just words stated with greater force.

I'm avoiding it because it's fucking stupid.

1) The hitler youth was a political organization. It's not a crime to be in a political organization. Political affiliation isn't illegal. It's what you DO in that political affiliation that matters

2) the pope is not a resident of the United States like this man is, so the fact that this man is facing a deportation hearing...really isn't relevant. He's not being arrested for anything. What are we gonna do about the fact that the pope was a hitler youth? deport him from a country he isn't a resident of?

3) even if this WERE a crime in the US, the pope is a head of state and immune from US laws.

What the holy fuck is your point, exactly?

1) Pope was also in the Army. Killed Allied troops.

2) fine, if your President was in the Hitler Youth then.

3) Is this if the Pope was living in America at the time? Even if he wasnt, America could just quite easily put pressure on the Government to impeach him. They've done it so many times before, its a joke.

Umm, I thought the legal system was based upon innocence till proven guilty, so wouldn't the state be required to demonstrate that he WAS a war criminal, he would not have to demonstrate anything.

Not a deportation hearing, no it's not. The rest of your post is based on your flawed assumption and not worth responding to.

So, when are we going to execute or deport those who firebombed Dresden and Tokyo, dropped nuclear weapons on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, etc.?

Crimes against humanity, without question.

Bogus and most likely true...? How does that work?

Okay what I was getting at if he knew what was going on...just because he was training dogs doesn't make him innocent thus that defense is complete bull..especially if he actually was present at a camp..dog trainer or not...

Mal I'm multi tasking..replying to posts as I can and you are as ignorant as AP ..for god sakes you try and justify Hezbollah killing civilians on AIM thus you lose any creditability you would have before you even begin to post..

As for the pope being in the Hitler youth.. thats not a crime..not the most desirable thing someone would want on their record but still not a crime.....when it was pretty much mandatory at a certain time to join up and defend the fatherland via Hitler youth or the home guard whatever that German word translation is..and thus since being part of the Hitler youth doesn't make you a criminal it has no validity in the argument at hand.. lastly...the US government has no power over papal elections...further defeating the validity of the argument..you and Mal fail..thanks for trying though..

However being an SS guard working with the camps etc etc would be a crime....

Okay what I was getting at if he knew what was going on...just because he was training dogs doesn't make him innocent thus that defense is complete bull..especially if he actually was present at a camp..dog trainer or not...

Mal I'm multi tasking..replying to posts as I can and you are as ignorant as AP ..for god sakes you try and justify Hezbollah killing civilians on AIM thus you lose any creditability you would have before you even begin to post..

As for the pope being in the Hitler youth.. thats not a crime..not the most desirable thing someone would want on their record but still not a crime.....when it was pretty much mandatory at a certain time to join up and defend the fatherland via Hitler youth or the home guard whatever that German word translation is..and thus since being part of the Hitler youth doesn't make you a criminal it has no validity in the argument at hand.. lastly...the US government has no power over papal elections...further defeating the validity of the argument..you and Mal fail..thanks for trying though..
However being an SS guard or working with the camps etc etc would be a crime....

Lol!


Wtf is it with you making that shit up about Hezbollah? Stop making that crap up just because I am half Pakistani. Racist, don't ya think?
...Read my description of the Hitler Youth....Also, the pope was in the ARMY. The ARMY fights people. *gasps*

Again.

Sorry, is the Pope living in the US?

No?

Well that ends that, doesn't it?

David Frankton is living in the US.

Yes.

he hurt many people. Not much has happened to him. He's a war criminal.

But Lo, behold, He was following orders given to him by Lydie England!

Thus by your reasoning, he is exempt from a court martial, or any reprimandatory action.

Again.

Sorry, is the Pope living in the US?

No?

Well that ends that, doesn't it?

No. The point was, if the pope WAS living in America, then would he be deported?

Stop thinking so literally. Just pretend for a second.

Not a deportation hearing, no it's not. The rest of your post is based on your flawed assumption and not worth responding to.

Flawed assumption? He was a dog trainer stationed in berlin, he was only briefly at two camps for the purpose of training guards stationed at the camps. He was only there for 3 months. Those aren't assumptions.

David Frankton is living in the US.

Yes.

he hurt many people. Not much has happened to him. He's a war criminal.

But Lo, behold, He was following orders given to him by Lydie England!

Thus by your reasoning, he is exempt from a court martial, or any reprimandatory action.

Following orders doesn't work...he should be tried..I don't have the power to get that done though..sadly

David Frankton is living in the US.

Yes.

he hurt many people. Not much has happened to him. He's a war criminal.

But Lo, behold, He was following orders given to him by Lydie England!

Thus by your reasoning, he is exempt from a court martial, or any reprimandatory action.

By my reasoning, which you have grossly mischaracterised?

Hardly. Bringing up the Pope is completely irrelevant to the present situation, which is the desire to deport a particular man.

Let him go through the process. That's my 'reasoning'. There is nothing special about him that should cause him to be immune to it.

Um I could bring up chat logs from AIM where you've tried saying Hezbollah was justified in using civilians as shields...I'm not making stuff up..simply expanding on how ignorant you are and why most people don't take you seriously...being in the army isn't a crime either..again you fail..horribly..

I really like how to attempt to convince me in saying that I 'fail'. It is very amusing. The only people who don't take me seriously are people like you. :D Now, I am going on MSN/AIM, I would like those logs. I am VERY ignorant. Why? Because I have an opinion that is different than yours...Lol. Truly funny.

No. The point was, if the pope WAS living in America, then would he be deported?

You mean if the pope wasn't actually the pope, and just some schmuck who happened to be living in america, should he be deported because of being in hitler youth?

Depends, what'd he do in the hitler youth? Simply being in an army isn't a crime. Helping run the death camps is, but not simply being in the army.

Lol!


Wtf is it with you making that shit up about Hezbollah? Stop making that crap up just because I am half Pakistani. Racist, don't ya think?
...Read my description of the Hitler Youth....Also, the pope was in the ARMY. The ARMY fights people. *gasps*


Um I could bring up chat logs from AIM where you've tried saying Hezbollah was justified in using civilians as shields...I'm not making stuff up..simply expanding on how ignorant you are and why most people don't take you seriously...being in the army isn't a crime either..again you fail..horribly..

Flawed assumption?

Your whole line about being innocent until proven guilty in a deportation hearing is a flawed assumption, yes. He is not up on criminal charges, he is up on a deportation hearing. Radically different thing. Learn how the law works before trying to talk about it.

It is a little hypocritcal that Homeland Security, an office created by one the world's biggest war criminals, and who serve at the beckon call of this cabinet of war criminals, are making such a fuss about deporting one wrinkly old Waffen SS member who may or may not have done much of anything wrong.

It is a little hypocritcal that Homeland Security, an office created by one the world's biggest war criminals, and who serve at the beckon call of this cabinet of war criminals, are making such a fuss about deporting one wrinkly old Waffen SS member who may or may not have done much of anything wrong.

1) Please provide your definition of 'war criminal'.
2) It's beck and call, not beckon call.
3) Are you changing the subject to Bush-hating and calling he and his cabinet war criminals, every single one?

It is a little hypocritcal that Homeland Security, an office created by one the world's biggest war criminals, and who serve at the beckon call of this cabinet of war criminals, are making such a fuss about deporting one wrinkly old Waffen SS member who may or may not have done much of anything wrong.

Riiiiiiight.

Big bad US war criminal gov't. Because clearly, anything they do is wrong.

This conversation kills brain cells.

Your whole line about being innocent until proven guilty in a deportation hearing is a flawed assumption, yes. He is not up on criminal charges, he is up on a deportation hearing. Radically different thing. Learn how the law works before trying to talk about it.

Ahh, it's not criminal.... So there are no charges against him.

1) Please provide your definition of 'war criminal'.
2) It's beck and call, not beckon call.
3) Are you changing the subject to Bush-hating and calling he and his cabinet war criminals, every single one?

1) Some one who commits are war crime, such as authorizing a breach of international law as grave as international aggression and invading another country, like what the US did in Iraq. This was the very same war crime that many Nazi war criminals were charged with.

2)I'm pretty sure its "beckon call", as something beckoned someone.

3)I'm not changing the subject, and yes, I'm calling Bush's cabinet war criminals. They are all part of the crime, and they are the ones covering for him.

Ahh, it's not criminal.... So there are no charges against him.

To my knowledge what he did as a member of the SS does not violate any American criminal law. That being said, the US doesn't have to let him stay in the country if they don't want him to be here.

1) Some one who commits are war crime, such as authorizing a breach of international law as grave as international aggression and invading another country, like what the US did in Iraq. This was the very same war crime that many Nazi war criminals were charged with.

Whether or not the reason stated for the attack, there was ample reason for the US to have invaded Iraq. When Saddam violated the Geneva Convention by using mustard gas on hundreds of thousands of Kurds (genocide), the UN should have gone in and deposed him. Other nations, too, should have gone in to remove Saddam from power when he gassed an oppressed minority.

Whether or not the reason stated for the attack, there was ample reason for the US to have invaded Iraq. When Saddam violated the Geneva Convention by using mustard gas on hundreds of thousands of Kurds (genocide), the UN should have gone in and deposed him. Other nations, too, should have gone in to remove Saddam from power when he gassed an oppressed minority.

The US oppressed Blacks *1960's and Slave Trade* and even Native Americans *Wars with land* in the past*, the French oppressed Hugenots in the past, were there any invasions of them for that?

The US oppressed Blacks *1960's and Slave Trade* and even Native Americans *Wars with land* in the past*, the French oppressed Hugenots in the past, were there any invasions of them for that?

Well, back then, those weren't big deals. And also, back then, they weren't illegal; which is why there is no legal basis for slavery reparations in the US today.

No, but everyone who did that is dead now (by everyone who did that I don't mean every racist is dead, I mean everyone who owned slaves is dead) and that (I mean the slavery here) was before the Geneva convention. Also, while both were wrong, neither were large-scale genocides using internationally outlawed weapons.

btw, way to add the Native Americans part. again, wrong, but not a genocide with illegal chemical weapons.

Well, back then, those weren't big deals. And also, back then, they weren't illegal; which is why there is no legal basis for slavery reparations in the US today.

Actually, around the Civil War period, slave trading was illegal. There was the "African Squadron" With the USS Constellation as the lead ship. They would get slave ships and free the slaves. So, it was illegal at one point.

No, but everyone who did that is dead now (by everyone who did that I don't mean every racist is dead, I mean everyone who owned slaves is dead) and that (I mean the slavery here) was before the Geneva convention. Also, while both were wrong, neither were large-scale genocides using internationally outlawed weapons.

The KKK is still intact, and they are well alive. Sure their group is down to like ~300 members, but the fact remains true; they are extremely racist against everyone who is NOT WASP:

White
Anglo
Saxon
Protestant

1) Some one who commits are war crime, such as authorizing a breach of international law as grave as international aggression and invading another country, like what the US did in Iraq. This was the very same war crime that many Nazi war criminals were charged with.
Well, that and the Holocaust.

2)I'm pretty sure its "beckon call", as something beckoned someone.
No, he has you on this one. The phrase was actually originally "beckon and call," but the modern one is "beck and call." An explanation is here (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/beck-and-call.html)

3)I'm not changing the subject, and yes, I'm calling Bush's cabinet war criminals. They are all part of the crime, and they are the ones covering for him.
What war crimes are you accusing him of specifically?
He was not a leader, he was not in charge. So leave this guy alone.
Else you can arrest and deport all Germans having an age of 70 years or older.
I agree. There's nothing wrong with training dogs to stop prisoners from escaping a camp. The existence of the camps themselves? Horribly immoral. But guard dogs are not inherently evil.

And what about the ‘holy’ pope?
I wish people would give this a break. If the guy who lived in Poland during the Second World War didn't see anything wrong with him, I don't see why anyone else should.

Some Bush deserves more a deportation than this dog handler.
Deserves, maybe, but I don't think it is constitutional to deport a native-born citizen.

btw, way to add the Native Americans part. again, wrong, but not a genocide with illegal chemical weapons.

How is that wrong? Look up the Trail of Tears!

Send him to Israel. I am sure they will find something constructive to do with him.:sniper:

How is that wrong? Look up the Trail of Tears!

How is it wrong? Of course its wrong!

I didn't mean incorrect, I meant that the acts were at least from my viewpoint morally wrong.

Also, so long as the KKK doesn't commit any crimes, then they aren't commiting any crimes. Hating people isn't against the law. It's bad, certainly, but it's not illegal.

Send him to Israel. I am sure they will find something constructive to do with him.:sniper:
Yes. He can train dogs for them.

There are no black people in the UK???????? :eek:
Not that are of Anglo-Saxon origins, no.

Actually, around the Civil War period, slave trading was illegal. There was the "African Squadron" With the USS Constellation as the lead ship. They would get slave ships and free the slaves. So, it was illegal at one point.



The KKK is still intact, and they are well alive. Sure their group is down to like ~300 members, but the fact remains true; they are extremely racist against everyone who is NOT WASP:

White
Anglo
Saxon
Protestant


Isn't that redundant? I mean how many non-white anglo-saxons have you ever seen?

How is it wrong? Of course its wrong!

I didn't mean incorrect, I meant that the acts were at least from my viewpoint morally wrong.

Also, so long as the KKK doesn't commit any crimes, then they aren't commiting any crimes. Hating people isn't against the law. It's bad, certainly, but it's not illegal.

What acts wee morally wrong? I think we are on different pages...>.>

I am aware of that. I take history class...xD However, explain the numerous lynchings and tarings made by the KKK to Black people. That is a hate crime.

Isn't that redundant? I mean how many non-white anglo-saxons have you ever seen?

It's redundant but I am just stating facts.

Isn't that redundant? I mean how many non-white anglo-saxons have you ever seen?

There are no black people in the UK???????? :eek:

There are no black people in the UK???????? :eek:

There are, but they're not Anglo-Saxon.

There are no black people in the UK???????? :eek:

Anglo-saxon refers to one's ancestry, not one's current home. The term WASP is also often erroneously applied to those of Germanic decent also.

Anglo-saxon refers to one's ancestry, not one's current home. The term WASP is also often erroneously applied to those of Germanic decent also.

Oh right. Like northeastern Europe, around there...

Not that are of Anglo-Saxon origins, no.

;)

I am aware of that. I take history class...xD However, explain the numerous lynchings and tarings made by the KKK to Black people. That is a hate crime.

Right. And they go to jail for it. Hate crimes, crimes in general, really, are what we call 'crimes'. However, the many people that performed lynchings that happened before they were actually illegal are protected because of that very fact - they did them before they were illegal. ex post facto, 'after the fact'. If they make a law today saying its illegal to dye your hair red, and you dyed your hair red yesterday, you wouldn't be in the wrong.

On the topic of which acts were morally wrong, the trail of tears, slavery, and religious persecution. All morally wrong.

Right. And they go to jail for it. Hate crimes, crimes in general, really, are what we call 'crimes'. However, the many people that performed lynchings that happened before they were actually illegal are protected because of that very fact - they did them before they were illegal. ex post facto, 'after the fact'. If they make a law today saying its illegal to dye your hair red, and you dyed your hair red yesterday, you wouldn't be in the wrong.

On the topic of which acts were morally wrong, the trail of tears, slavery, and religious persecution. All morally wrong.

Ah yes, ex post facto. My bad...*runs off crying*

To my knowledge what he did as a member of the SS does not violate any American criminal law. That being said, the US doesn't have to let him stay in the country if they don't want him to be here.

Well, I don't approve of arbitrarily deporting people unless they have been convicted of something criminal.

You know, everyone is still avoiding the awkward fact the current Pope was in the Hitler youth.

What should be done about the Pope, then?

Nothing. He committed no war crimes and did not lie on any application for immigration into any country.

I don't know if this SS guy committed any war crimes, but he clearly lied on his application to immigrate to the US. Barring some sort of applicable amnesty, that's enough to boot him out of the country.

Say that to Gods face when you die scumbag!Stalin isn't evil because he was allied with America in WW2.Why are you sticking up for scumbag nazis? You obviously support Hitler!"Nazi's who actually, you know, did evil things?"
-Which is all of them!

"But oh wait. According to you, every person involved with the Waffen SS, no matter how remote, is a Nazi and should be executed."
-Yes.

"I guess you want to exterminate all Germans next."
-Yes.

Also, anybody who supports nazis are sticks up for them should be killed too.Since nazi's were the most evil people to walk the earth he should be gang raped, castrated, stoned, then burned to death.

Exumer, you're apparently under the impression that your variety of self-righteousness gives you free reign to flame other posters and call for genocide against an entire nationality. Perhaps that's true somewhere, but it ain't true here.

Why don't you take a couple days off, and maybe read the rules when you get back?

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Game Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop

Ok, so let’s say that we should punish this man for being the watchman at a condentration camp. Then shouldn’t we also punish the men that rounded up the jews and gypsies for deportation? By the same logic we should punish the people who produced the weapons that the German soldiers used to impose their will on the victims. Then we must also punish the men who ran the railroad in German-occupied Europe and Western-Russia. Surely, all the jews couldn’t have been killed if the German authorities didn’t have a railroad to transport the prisoners.
We should take our quest to revenge to the next logical step, which is to punish all the German soldiers that served during the war. The Nazis wouldn’t have been able to deport the jews in France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Poland, Denmark, etc if there hadn’t been German soldiers to conquer the countries in advance.
Maybe we just should punish all male Germans above the age of 65?
In that way we would be absolutely sure that we have punished all the criminals.

The amazing thing is that popular opinion is to let him stay. Must be the influx of yankees that have infested North Georgia that tips public opinion in such a obscene way.

Or, you know, that most Southerners are good people who feel pity for a senile old man 60 years removed from his crimes who is so confused he's not even sure what he did. You may be heartless, but this guy is more pitiful than evil. This is just a political stunt anyway.

Are you certain you've read the article? Besides being a nazi, he was also a willing member of the SS, who guarded prisoners of the Dachau concentration camp.

Being a nazi in those days doesn't automatically a war criminal, but being a member of the waffen ss, while stationed at dachau of all places, makes it a bit harder to proclaim your moral innocence.Hate to disagree and to say it, but I have heard stores about people my kin knew in the old country who voluntarialy joined the Waffen SS in order to prevent the Communists from ruling out of their own free will. As well, a soldier has to follow orders or they may well be killed themselves.

Hate to disagree and to say it, but I have heard stores about people my kin knew in the old country who voluntarialy joined the Waffen SS in order to prevent the Communists from ruling out of their own free will. As well, a soldier has to follow orders or they may well be killed themselves.

Precisely.

Secondly, have any of you spoken with Eastern Europeans? Hungarians, in particular, always speak of how much more they feared the Soviets than the Germans. The Soviet regime killed tens of millions more than did the Germans. That's a fact. Where are the war trials for these criminals? Oh, my bad, they won the war.

Har har.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Klopfer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Leibbrandt

You can't simply catch em all.

Well, that and the Holocaust.

No, he has you on this one. The phrase was actually originally "beckon and call," but the modern one is "beck and call." An explanation is here (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/beck-and-call.html)

What war crimes are you accusing him of specifically?

Hmm. Well, looks like i'm going to have to change one of my speech mannerisms. But, back to war crimes. At Nuremburg, the Nazi leaders were charged with four major international offenses:


Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of crime against peace
Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace
War crimes (unethical conduct of war)
Crimes against humanity (this is the holocaust)

Only one of the crimes had to do with the Holocaust. The major crux of the trial was Germany's aggression against its neighbors.

I accuse the US and UK governments (i'm not alone in this) of committing the first two. They very clearly violated international law by authorizing wars of aggression, completely unprovoked, a clear violation of the UN charter and other international statutes.

These two alone are heinous enough war crimes. The evidence is clear that both governments lied about the justifications for the war, and have abused their powers in the conduct of the war for personal benefit and the benefit of cronies.

They should give the old fellow the exact same treatment that they will give to the Blackwater contractors convicted of indiscriminately killing Iraqis.......





I'll wait.....




:eek:

Hmm. Well, looks like i'm going to have to change one of my speech mannerisms. But, back to war crimes. At Nuremburg, the Nazi leaders were charged with four major international offenses:


Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of crime against peace
Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace
War crimes (unethical conduct of war)
Crimes against humanity (this is the holocaust)

Only one of the crimes had to do with the Holocaust. The major crux of the trial was Germany's aggression against its neighbors.

I accuse the US and UK governments (i'm not alone in this) of committing the first two. They very clearly violated international law by authorizing wars of aggression, completely unprovoked, a clear violation of the UN charter and other international statutes.

These two alone are heinous enough war crimes. The evidence is clear that both governments lied about the justifications for the war, and have abused their powers in the conduct of the war for personal benefit and the benefit of cronies.

You cite their crimes as those violating countries in peace (if I'm understanding this correctly). Let me point you to Saddam's violations before the Iraq War: 4, maybe 3 depending on whether or not you consider mustard gas unethical conduct. Not unethical conduct of war (is a gun really so much more ethical, though, than chlorine or mustard?), perhaps, but certainly unethical conduct against humanity.

Again, I point you to the hundreds of thousands of Kurds (an ethnic minority in the middle east) Saddam had gassed in public squares and parks.

Is it a crime against peace when you attack to depose a man who uses outlawed weapons against hundreds of thousands of civilians?

Convincing stuff. I believe that every time I see a convict claim "It wasn't me" and every time I see a mom say "My boy wouldn't do that".

We don't need trials and courts, all we need to do is ask the accused if he did it. If he says no, we let him go. That's pretty damned easy.

Exactly. I'm not sure why so many are willing to accept at face value either the charges against this man or his denials.

At least with the charges, he has admitted some of the critical facts are true. Here is a copy of the deportation papers (http://www.wsbtv.com/download/2007/1001/14243466.pdf) (pdf) -- pages 3 and 4 detail the accusations against Mr. Henss. He has basically admitted the grounds for deportation.

The man is being deported, nothing more. He will have a fair hearing before that happens.

I'm not sure how all the rhetoric about other people who could be accountable on various theories for the Holocaust excuses any specific acts Mr. Henss may have committed.

I'm not sure how all the rhetoric about how Mr. Henss shouldn't be punished for war crimes is relevant to whether he should be deported.

But, I'm glad to see so many of you leap to support illegal immigration.

Henss called the Holocaust "a catastrophe" and said: "Everybody in Germany knows that wasn't right."

Seems to make sense to let him stay. Everybody deserves a second chance.