NationStates Jolt Archive

The Role of Women in the world of Islam.

Like it or not, but for Muslims, women are second class people.

• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra.
• Women can’t drive a car (in some countries), men can.
• In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man.
• It’s common in Islam countries that killers pay a fine (=diyyat) to the victims their relatives or family. But killing a woman is cheaper: half the price of the man! This is actually written in the law codex of several Muslim countries.
• In some Islam countries men are allowed to practise polygamy. They can have several women. But women can’t have several men.
• When they marry, men are asked to be nice for their women. Women will be asked to obey their men.
• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men. In some countries and under certain conditions women can try to convince a male judge to grant a divorce.
• When women have their menstruation they are considered to be unclean and they are advised to stay away from the mosque.
• In these mosques, the best ‘seats’ are for the men. They can sit in front, women sit always behind them or are just separated from the men.
• The last 200 years there is not one single female jurist in any Muslim country.
• In most Muslim countries both sexes can vote. In Saudi Arabia women can’t at all and in Lebanon only women have to proof they are educated before they can vote.

And when they come to Europe or USA, sure they have to obey our rules, but in reality most don’t.

Women are sometimes ill informed about their rights here. And even if they do know their rights, most of them will not use them because their social and family life would be terminated.

I consider the Islam as one of the most female unfriendly religions around.

so what do I pull your points apart or do I point out the reasons for the existence of such rules?

and no beleive it or not there are not mad Muslims going round left right and center, odd nutball conservative maybe (hence why they integrate better than most cultural groups:p) but on the whole normal people

so how many time have we had these threads now?

What's your point?

lol religion

so what do I pull your points apart or do I point out the reasons for the existence of such rules?

No, you don't. We know it already: male pig chauvinist domination.

No, you don't. We know it already: male pig chauvinist domination.

Therein lies your mistake in this post - to be fair, many of these rules apply in many places, not just the Middle East.

You can't go into Buddhist temples if you're menstruating.

As much as I deplore the attitudes of many Middle Eastern countries, they're not alone and I can't think of a country that is entirely fair either.

I'd hazard a guess at Sweden since have this habit of being annoyingly against the grain.

We have alot to learn from these muslims.


lol.

We have alot to learn from these muslims.


lol.

We, Western, males are pussies. :)

This should be titled 'The Role of Women in the world of Middle-Eastern situated Islam'.

Not every Muslim in the world follows this example.

THE PATRIARCHY IS OUT TO GET US! THEY EAT OUR BABIES AND WORSHIP HITLER!

lol feminists
lol religion

all this thread needs is PETA and the trifecta of stupidity is complete.

Oh god, do not try to hang the PETA bait.

You have no idea what demons may be unleashed.

No, you don't. We know it already: male pig chauvinist domination.

THE PATRIARCHY IS OUT TO GET US! THEY EAT OUR BABIES AND WORSHIP HITLER!

lol feminists
lol religion

all this thread needs is PETA and the trifecta of stupidity is complete.

This should be titled 'The Role of Women in the world of Middle-Eastern situated Islam'.

Not every Muslim in the world follows this example.

No, some rules are really active and alive in Turkey, Morocco, Nigeria, Indonesia or so many other non-Middle East countries.

Some, rules are not laws and can be practised in any country.

By instance, I do not see that many Muslim women wearing no veil at all.
I do not see male wearing a veil...

I did not say anywhere that all laws and rules are working in all Muslim countries as well.

I believe I used the word 'some' in my initial text. I used this for some reason.

No, some rules are really active and alive in Turkey, Morocco, Nigeria, Indonesia or so many other non-Middle East countries.

Some, rules are not laws and can be practised in any country.

By instance, I do not see that many Muslim women wearing no veil at all.
I do not see male wearing a veil...

I did not say anywhere that all laws and rules are working in all Muslim countries as well.

The reason regarding the veil is the belief that people are driven to marry or fall in love based on looks. The Islamic belief is that by having women wear a veil it reduces the chances of this predicament.

Oh, and in the Qu'ran women are allowed to own land, go to court, read and write. During their time, they far outstripped European women in terms of right. What is here right now are a group of fundamentalist-fueled nations. But there is little part on Islam.

Besides, what's your point in this?

Oh god, do not try to hang the PETA bait.

You have no idea what demons may be unleashed.

Isn't that kind of the point?

Isn't that kind of the point?

Oh my god, what kind of person are you?!

The reason regarding the veil is the belief that people are driven to marry or fall in love based on looks. The Islamic belief is that by having women wear a veil it reduces the chances of this predicament.


How cute! A law to protect the ugly bitches!

And my point stays valid...
Why is there no similar law to *uhm* protect the ugly Muslim dudes?


Oh, and in the Qu'ran women are allowed to own land, go to court, read and write. During their time, they far outstripped European women in terms of right. What is here right now are a group of fundamentalist-fueled nations. But there is little part on Islam.

What a privilege! They can own land, go to court, read and write!
That's...awesome. In the good old days…

No, it are not all fundamentalist-fuelled topics. Some of the above rules are common in the entire Islam world.

Oh my god, what kind of person are you?!

The best kind of person.

Some of the above rules are common in the entire Islam world.

well yes planet Earth does have a few crazy towns, however unless I'm mistaken there is a large Muslim population in Britain and yet I see no sexism

I do have to ask: what if a Muslim woman wants to wear a veil?

All the Abrahamic religions are anti-woman.

Next?

How cute! A law to protect the ugly bitches!

And my point stays valid...
Why is there no similar law to *uhm* protect the ugly Muslim dudes?

Because men are manly and can protect themselves.

Also, there should be laws like with the ugly women, only with the fat women. Nothing is worse then when some fat whale's belly hangs out or her shirt is too high. I mean seriously; ew.

well yes planet Earth does have a few crazy towns, however unless I'm mistaken there is a large Muslim population in Britain and yet I see no sexism

I do have to ask: what if a Muslim woman wants to where a veil?

It depends about the society, the country.

In Turkish cities, it would be no problem.
But the same Turkish girl trying to do this in Antwerp (Belgium) would suffer a hard time.

Muslim males will call her a whore. (This actually happened to a nice girl I know)

Because men are manly and can protect themselves.


Is that true (http://nalts.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/nerd.jpg)?


Also, there should be laws like with the ugly women, only with the fat women. Nothing is worse then when some fat whale's belly hangs out or her shirt is too high. I mean seriously; ew.

So we should lock the ugly and release the pretty ones?

well yes planet Earth does have a few crazy towns, however unless I'm mistaken there is a large Muslim population in Britain and yet I see no sexism


Go to some bar in any Muslim neighbourhood.

Odds are high that several men are sitting inside.

But I'm rather sure that you'll never see any Muslim lady dancing on a table.
She will be not there at all.

No sexism? The veil is a symbol of sexism, sir.

Actually, that's only in places which use sharia law -- which, unfortunately, hardline muslims asks countries to adopt.

Women have to wear the veil, because Muslims think that hair is sexually provocative.

My only question is that if hair is so sexy, why don't they make men shave... hell, some of their women could use a good shave too...

Actually, that's only in places which use sharia law -- which, unfortunately, hardline muslims asks countries to adopt.


Eh no.

Most of the desribed laws and practices are used in all Muslim countries and communities, I'm talking about these ones:

• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra.
• In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man.
• It’s common in Islam countries that killers pay a fine (=diyyat) to the victims their relatives or family. But killing a woman is cheaper: half the price of the man! This is actually written in the law codex of several Muslim countries.
• When they marry, men are asked to be nice for their women. Women will be asked to obey their men.
• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men. In some countries and under certain conditions women can try to convince a male judge to grant a divorce.
• When women have their menstruation they are considered to be unclean and they are advised to stay away from the mosque.
• In these mosques, the best ‘seats’ are for the men. They can sit in front, women sit always behind them or are just separated from the men.
• The last 200 years there is not one single female jurist in any Muslim country.
• In most Muslim countries both sexes can vote. In Saudi Arabia women can’t at all and in Lebanon only women have to proof they are educated before they can vote.

When it is not the case, I used by instance the word 'some', like in these cases:

• Women can’t drive a car (in some countries), men can.
• In some Islam countries men are allowed to practise polygamy. They can have several women. But women can’t have several men.

So only 2 of those laws and practices are used in the hardcore Muslim countries.

So we should lock the ugly and release the pretty ones?
YOU FINALLY GET IT. Pic related (http://photos.tr0lled.com/gallery/d/829-1/36dd1a1062b39f0d5dafb6e6f1c48ada.jpg)

Women have to wear the veil, because Muslims think that hair is sexually provocative.

My only question is that if hair is so sexy, why don't they make men shave... hell, some of their women could use a good shave too...


And the hair of males couldn't be sexually provocative?

Sharia Law is what not Arab countries operatere under, and it is not based entirely on the Qu'ran but mostly on the Haditha, which is not the holy doctrine of Islam. Sharia law is also primarily culture based as well.

Further, what you cite as part of Islam is not derived from the religion itself but rather from culture.

In fact you're quite wrong with your information, as what you list is not taken from the Qu'ran in any form and in most cases you have it backwards.

Islam does not make women second class citizens, it's the country that they are part of that does this. The reasons are culturally influenced. The use of religion to suppress them comes from gross misinterpretation of the Qu'ran.

• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra.

There is no passage that says that women must wear the veil. In fact, the passages related to modesty can be interpreted in many different ways and are often taken out of context. After all, the passage used to justify veils is used for the niqab, the chador, the burqa and the hijab, which are all fastened differently and cover different amounts.

24 Light
24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

It says nothing of covering the head. The bosom is the chest, so this can be taken to mean to cover the chest area.

This is a passage that can be interpreted depending on how one reads it. Further, another issue with this is that it doesn't make it clear what must be covered.

• Women can’t drive a car (in some countries), men can.

This is has nothing to do with Islam. In fact, this is done by a nation's laws.

• In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man.

That's Sharia law; a law that may have been influenced by the Qu'ran but was never written in the Qu'ran itself.

There are plenty of cases where several witnesses are needed. For example in the case of adultery; three witnesses are needed but this is often overlooked when the accused is a female. The three witnesses must have observed the act and be privy to the knowledge for a the charge to be upheld.

The countries themselves act differently because conservative imans interpreted Sharia to suit their needs.

• It’s common in Islam countries that killers pay a fine (=diyyat) to the victims their relatives or family. But killing a woman is cheaper: half the price of the man! This is actually written in the law codex of several Muslim countries.

Yes it's in the Qu'ran... but also found in the Old Testament in Christianity and Judaism, the same exists.

Leviticus 27:3-7...

27:3 And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary.
27:4 And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.
27:5 And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.
27:6 And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.
27:7 And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

• In some Islam countries men are allowed to practise polygamy. They can have several women. But women can’t have several men.

Polygamy was permitted under Islamic scripture when there were fewer men than women, and the man could provide equally for all his wives, and give them his attention equally. If a man couldn't do that, he is not permitted to have multiple wives.

• When they marry, men are asked to be nice for their women. Women will be asked to obey their men.

All believers are first to obey Allah above all else.

• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men. In some countries and under certain conditions women can try to convince a male judge to grant a divorce.

It is equal in Islam, though in Islamic nations it's frowned upon.

It is laid out in the Qu'ran the instructions for divorce, and one of those instructions is that there must be witnesses to the divorce, and that believers must divorce three times. Those three times are to allow the couple time to try and resolve what may be the problem.

Women are permitted to request divorce.

The nations that don't allow it are those already ignoring their rights, are justifying it using the Qu'ran taken out of context.

• When women have their menstruation they are considered to be unclean and they are advised to stay away from the mosque.

But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, and hath not ... come near to a menstruous woman.... Ezekiel 18:5

And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean. Leviticus 15:19-24

They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times.... Quran 2:222

Gee, something else Judeo-Christian and Islamic scripture and beliefs have in common. And it seems that the OT has more to say about this than the Qu'ran does.

• In these mosques, the best ‘seats’ are for the men. They can sit in front, women sit always behind them or are just separated from the men.

Sounds like Orthodox Judaism.

• The last 200 years there is not one single female jurist in any Muslim country.

And what does this have to do with Islam? This is culture at work here.

• In most Muslim countries both sexes can vote. In Saudi Arabia women can’t at all and in Lebanon only women have to proof they are educated before they can vote.

What does voting have to do with Islam? While the nations be Islamic, the vote is not specified at all in Islamic scripture.

Almost all that you find wrong with "Islam" is derived from the fact that fundamentalism is now the current line of thinking.

And when they come to Europe or USA, sure they have to obey our rules, but in reality most don’t.

Women are sometimes ill informed about their rights here. And even if they do know their rights, most of them will not use them because their social and family life would be terminated.

I consider the Islam as one of the most female unfriendly religions around.

There are plenty of people living in Europe and North America who should follow the laws but don't, and many people are ill-informed about their rights here, even when they are born here.

Religion is generally not female friendly.

Go to some bar in any Muslim neighbourhood.

Odds are high that several men are sitting inside.

But I'm rather sure that you'll never see any Muslim lady dancing on a table.
She will be not there at all.

No sexism? The veil is a symbol of sexism, sir.

Wow, you know nothing about Islam because if you did, you'd know that Islam is a dry religion and that bars would not be generally accepted as bars as a place where one goes to wet their whistle. Alcoholic drinks are strictly forbidden in Islam.

the veil is not a symbol of sexism when the woman wears it by choice. When either gender is forced into a role or forced to do something because of perceived stereotypes, that's sexism.

I have it somewhere but I need to find it... a male friend of mine listed what is forbidden for men in Islam (and there was a lot of it too)... when I find it, I'll post it. I have it stored in a chat log... somewhere...

Go to some bar in any Muslim neighbourhood.

Odds are high that several men are sitting inside.

But I'm rather sure that you'll never see any Muslim lady dancing on a table.
She will be not there at all.

No sexism? The veil is a symbol of sexism, sir.

Bar? You are aware of course that alcohol is strictly forbidden in Islam. Therefore no, odds are not high that there are a number of Muslim men sitting inside. I have mixed opinions on the veil, I know women who were forced to wear it and I know women who wear it out of ofchoice, though I did protest when my mom said she wanted to wear it.

Islam does not make women second class citizens, it's the country that they are part of that does this. The reasons are culturally influenced. The use of religion to suppress them comes from gross misinterpretation the Qu'ran.

Disagree, the Quran may not be as bad as the hadith in relegating womens status but it's still there. You yourself allude to the fact that the Old testament and the Quran share much in common and it's quite evident that the misogyny found in the former has trickled its way down into the latter.

It depends about the society, the country.

so your now bitching about middle eastern culture?

In Turkish cities, it would be no problem.
But the same Turkish girl trying to do this in Antwerp (Belgium) would suffer a hard time.

(I have no idea where this is coming from but I guess you read my question as doesn't want to wear) its Belgium, have you been playing with middle aged white council estate folk again?

she would get more hassle from feminists if she decides to be a housewife

Muslim males will call her a whore. (This actually happened to a nice girl I know)

and? I'm sure there are fundies everywhere who can do that, its just nice to have an excuse when your being a dick

Go to some bar in any Muslim neighbourhood.

well I guess in my case the pub near the old post center will do

also in your case your talking Muslim men which can't really be spotted if they decide not to wear some funky outfit especially since alcohol is a no-no with the hard core types

But I'm rather sure that you'll never see any Muslim lady dancing on a table.
She will be not there at all.

I bloody hope she won't be dancing on the table, its a disaster in motion

and again the idea that I can spot Muslim women at bars is silly

No sexism? The veil is a symbol of sexism, sir.

its in Britain sir the current government encourages women to get rid of the things

are dresses sexist as well?

are dresses sexist as well?
So are skirts, especially those short ones; make-up, bras, high heels...

Kryozerkia,

Read the first 2 line of my initial text:

"The Role of Women in the world of Islam.

Like it or not, but for Muslims, women are second class people."

I'm not stating something about the role of women in the qu'ran.

It's true that nowhere is written in the qu'ran that women should wear a veil.
In the west, most Muslim women are wearing it. I don't see males wearing veils.

It's true that in our bible is written that our wives must wear a veil.

In reality, it's rare to see a western woman with a veil.

That women can't drive in countries as Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan is law, but the law is in general inspired by the qu'ran and/or the Sharia.

It could be written in the bible, but killing a wife isn't cheaper in the West. It actually is in the Muslim world.

Ah, first we obey allah and if he isn't at home, we should obey the male.
Is it that why Muslim brothers can beat their Muslim sisters - just cause they smiled to a non-Muslim?

Women are permitted to divorce if they can convince a male judge (a qadi).
Men don't need this extra step.

Do you think it's normal that not ONE single woman was a jurist for the last 200 years in the Muslim world?

And you really think it has nothing to do with religion?

Yes, religions are mostly not woman-friendly.

But having some phrases on some old documents and just practising it present times is a world of difference.

The qu'ran and bible both approve having a slave.

Where's the "Oh God, not this shit again" picture?

Edwinasia, you and all the other Muslim-haters have been informed, time and again, that this has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with Middle-eastern culture. Your points have also been debunked, time and again.

Do you enjoy public humiliation?

It's about the only explanation I can fathom for the fact that you keep trying with the same old, tired and, most of all, WRONG premises and thought processes.

Where's the "Oh God, not this shit again" picture?

Edwinasia, you and all the other Muslim-haters have been informed, time and again, that this has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with Middle-eastern culture. Your points have also been debunked, time and again.

Do you enjoy public humiliation?

It's about the only explanation I can fathom for the fact that you keep trying with the same old, tired and, most of all, WRONG premises and thought processes.


Is Morroco, Indonesia, Nigeria or Turkey Middle East?

Who said, I hate Muslim people?

I hate female unfriendly practices.
I will fight for women.
Damn, I'm a woman!

Is Morroco, Indonesia, Nigeria or Turkey Middle East?

Who said, I hate Muslim people?

I hate female unfriendly practices.
I will fight for women.
Damn, I'm a woman!

... yes?

The Role of Women in the world of Islam.

Like it or not, but for Muslims, women are second class people.

• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra.
• Women can’t drive a car (in some countries), men can.
• In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man.
• It’s common in Islam countries that killers pay a fine (=diyyat) to the victims their relatives or family. But killing a woman is cheaper: half the price of the man! This is actually written in the law codex of several Muslim countries.
• In some Islam countries men are allowed to practise polygamy. They can have several women. But women can’t have several men.
• When they marry, men are asked to be nice for their women. Women will be asked to obey their men.
• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men. In some countries and under certain conditions women can try to convince a male judge to grant a divorce.
• When women have their menstruation they are considered to be unclean and they are advised to stay away from the mosque.
• In these mosques, the best ‘seats’ are for the men. They can sit in front, women sit always behind them or are just separated from the men.
• The last 200 years there is not one single female jurist in any Muslim country.
• In most Muslim countries both sexes can vote. In Saudi Arabia women can’t at all and in Lebanon only women have to proof they are educated before they can vote.

And when they come to Europe or USA, sure they have to obey our rules, but in reality most don’t.

Women are sometimes ill informed about their rights here. And even if they do know their rights, most of them will not use them because their social and family life would be terminated.

I consider the Islam as one of the most female unfriendly religions around.
Great BS post...

Selective and suggestive

Your conclusion suggests that you have used the same standards for other religions and cultural groups, right?

*snip*

I read your bullshit and frankly, I'm calling foul because if you didn't want people to interpret this then you shouldn't have said "Muslims" and "Islam" because that means that the Qu'ran is fair game along with cultural references and Sharia.

There are plenty of other sexist symbols in the west that aren't the veil and personally, as a woman I view the veil of less of a sexist symbol than a mini-skirt, make-up or anything else that is geared towards women in western culture.

We're bombarded with images of the "perfect" woman. This is just as sexist if not moreso because it's saying that this is what women need to ascribe to, and what men want.

I'd rather cover-up and wear a veil (which I did because I was curious once) than wear make-up and a mini-skirt because at least in Islam, make-up is frowned upon, and that is a very good thing. Make-up, high heels and mini-skirts, as well as shirts that don't cover much are an insult to women. western culture is just as sexist!

And as for the juror issue, I don't consider it normal but that is a cultural baggage issue, as is the driving and voting one. These are resulting from fundamentalism rising in the ME.

Is Morroco, Indonesia, Nigeria or Turkey Middle East?

Who said, I hate Muslim people?

I hate female unfriendly practices.
I will fight for women.
Damn, I'm a woman!

And since you're a woman then surely you agree with me that western culture is sexist as well with the pervading images of skewed female beauty and that make-up degrades women? That we can dress sexily without dressing like sluts?

The Role of Women in the world of Islam.

Like it or not, but for Muslims, women are second class people.

• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra.
Actually in the middle east both the men and the women cover their heads...

High heels are the western veil...

Women wear high heels by choice as do most muslim women wear the hejab by choice. But ever wonder why they would freely want to?

So are skirts, especially those short ones; make-up, bras, high heels...

you must have fun jogging...

High heels are the western veil...

Women wear high heels by choice as do most muslim women wear the hejab by choice. But ever wonder why they would freely want to?

Interesting way of looking at the subject; I like your angle.

you must have fun jogging...

;) Actually, most bras are poorly designed for jogging anyway and don't provide the right type of support.

Actually in the middle east both the men and the women cover their heads...

Sure, Arafat was wearing one (the same?) all the time. I believe I saw pictures of his wife wearing no veil at all.

And how is business in Europe or USA ?

I visited Morocco some years ago, few men were wearing a veil and few females were wearing none.

I did not say anywhere that all laws and rules are working in all Muslim countries as well.

I believe I used the word 'some' in my initial text. I used this for some reason.

That's very true, but you know it's so much more rewarding to argue against an imaginary, absolutist, straw man position than it is to read, comprehend, and discuss your actual point. That would be... boring.

And since you're a woman then surely you agree with me that western culture is sexist as well...

Snore. Wake me up when a western nation's religious police, acting under government approval like the baseej or muttawa, beat you to a bloody pulp for you refusal to conform to the sexist western ideals of feminine appearance.


Ya know something? Sometimes kittens bite. Sometimes Alligators bite. It does not make a kitten like an alligator.

These kinds of self-righteous 'moral high ground' arguments always make me laugh, it's like the person all inspired because of their 'Western values' going and telling another culture/religion that what they is doing is all wrong because it conflicts with my standards (which are non-existent in the Muslim world).

I[B]I'd rather cover-up and wear a veil (which I did because I was curious once) than wear make-up and a mini-skirt

Goody for you. And in every decent, tolerant, enlightened nation on this planet the choice is up to you! All yours!

Now guess the dominant culture of the others.

No, you don't. We know it already: male pig chauvinist domination.what?.. dont you like pig (http://allrecipes.com/Recipes/Meat-and-Poultry/Pork/Main.aspx)?

:D

This is the most schokcing thread I've ever seen.

You big bunch of hypocritical double standard holier than thou fakes.

You people will come on here and deride and criticize Christianity until the cows come home as mysoginistic, sexist, etc. Some of you people in here harrased me for pages on end in the Mormonism thread over the fact that men and women have different formal roles in the Church and the whole time being self-righteous judgmental trolls.

And those same people are in here defending Islam strenuously enough to make any radical Imam proud. I expected at least Bottle, who loves to point the sexism finger at everybody she can, to at least acknowledge the differences, since the list in the OP is vastly more sexist than anything you'll find in any major Christian church today by anybody's standards... and yet all I saw was one "All Abrahamic religions are like that" trollish post.

For most, "Well that's Government, not religion" seems to be the favorite excuse. We're talking about countries with no separation of church and state so that's bullcrap and it amazes me you had the temerity to even post that nonsense. At least in this country we do have such a separation and yet somehow you are the first people who will scream and rail about how the US government is turning into a theocracy.

You should be grateful for the fact that you live in a country with the protections we have, and the same goes for any other western nations with similar protections.

None of you may ever again expect to hold any credibility at all in any sexism topic in the future as far as I'm concerned. You don't mind sexism as long as it doesn't seem to be coming from a Christian. You've revealed yourselevs. You don't care about sexism or the treatment of women in parts of the world where they're treated as nothing more than property. You are inconsistent. You are cowards. If you're going to take a stand against sexism then TAKE A STAND against it and everybody, EVERYBODY who institutionalizes it.

I know there are isolated Christian groups that practice forms of sexism that rival those in the Middle East. Know what? Those sects SUCK. I'm not afraid to come out against them. But I've seen you people use that as a rationalization to paint ALL Christians with the same broad brush.

But when somebody takes a page from your playbook and uses it against Islam, for some reason you switch tactics and start defending it zealously.

You don't really care about sexism at all, you've just been troling for excuses to hold up one religion over another, which I find puzzling since the people I refer to don't even believe in it.

Some folks have been consistent enough to just criticize ALL religions equally over other threads as well as this one. At least those people have been consistent and deserve acknowledgement for that.

But those of you at whom this rant is aimed know who you are, and you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Sure, Arafat was wearing one (the same?) all the time. I believe I saw pictures of his wife wearing no veil at all.

And how is business in Europe or USA ?

I visited Morocco some years ago, few men were wearing a veil and few females were wearing none.

I was simply trying to say that in the Desert, from which the religion originates it makes perfect sense to cover your head, as it is harmful not to do so. In Egypt I often encountered men with head coverings.

In the west women are often free to choose whether they wear a headscarf. Consequently those that do wear it out of free will. It is part of the image that they would like to present to the world and to their fellow Muslims as well. As I stated above this does not differ much from high heels in western society. Should we call these women oppressed? You tell me…

All the Abrahamic religions are anti-woman.
(Judaism / Christianity / Islam are sexist) has Edwinasia replied to this one yet?

These kinds of self-righteous 'moral high ground' arguments always make me laugh, it's like the person all inspired because of their 'Western values' going and telling another culture/religion that what they is doing is all wrong because it conflicts with my standards (which are non-existent in the Muslim world).


What do you mean? Shut up and mind your own business, woman?

Btw, 10 thousand of Muslim females protested in the Paris streets AGAINST the veil....

Snore. Wake me up when a western nation's religious police, acting under government approval like the baseej or muttawa, beat you to a bloody pulp for you refusal to conform to the sexist western ideals of feminine appearance.


Ya know something? Sometimes kittens bite. Sometimes Alligators bite. It does not make a kitten like an alligator.

Are we talking about Islam or about regimes...

Because people mix these more easily than rum and coke...

has Edwinasia replied to this one yet?

Yes. And I confirmed it.

What's your point?

Besides, what's your point in this?

snip

Here it is, apparently.

What do you mean? Shut up and mind your own business, woman?

Btw, 10 thousand of Muslim females protested in the Paris streets AGAINST the veil....

And they have every right not to wear the veil, just as those that do want to wear it have every right to wear it.

Are we talking about Islam or about regimes...

Because people mix these more easily than rum and coke...

Is that not often the same in those kind of worlds?

I expected at least Bottle, who loves to point the sexism finger at everybody she can, to at least...Why is some people always waiting for Bottle or Fass to fight their Forum battles?

Cant you stand up and speak up for yourselves?
Grow a backbone and stop hiding behind Bottle or Fass...

Bottle has spoken.. and she has called Islam sexist (anti-woman)..

You want her to denounce Islam sexism but.. at the same time you expect her to avoid mentioning the sexism in other religions? Good luck with that ;) I dont think she going to jump into your car.

Why do some people always waiting for Bottle or Fass to fight their Forum battles?

Cant you stand up and speak up for yourselves?
Grow a backbone and stop hiding behind Bottle or Fass...

Bottle has spoken.. and she has called Islam sexist (anti-woman)..

You want her to denounce Islam sexism but.. at the same time you expect her to avoid mentioning the sexism in other religions? Good luck with that ;) I dont think she going to jump into your car.


A thread isn't a thread before Bottle or Fass entered the ring, doh!

Sexism can be found all around the world, in various cultures and religions including our own. However we also see women’s rights slowly but steadily improve across the world, the Middle East is no exception in this matter.

Surely this does not mean we have to accept sexism when it takes place. It would however be silly to point at how sexist others are without looking to the actual changes you can make in your own society.

A thread isn't a thread before Bottle or Fass entered the ring, doh!ahh
the WOW factor.. I forgot about that. :fluffle:

You are right of course.

Is that not often the same in those kind of worlds?

No not realy. though governments often pay lip-service to Islam, most governments are secular. Islam is a religion with great variety, thus when a government follows some extremist belief that women should not drive, we should point at the saudi govt. not at Islam...

Moreover things are not always what they may seem at first glance... In many countries women are getting more and more politically active. moreover they have far more influence than you might think...

Take polygamy for example. It is very rare. And I would not want to be the poor sod with more than one wife... Women know their strengts... I have read an antropological report of a man with two wives... he had to treat them equally.. two washing machines etc. let's just say the women got the better of him :D

What do you mean? Shut up and mind your own business, woman?

Btw, 10 thousand of Muslim females protested in the Paris streets AGAINST the veil....
I don't support it, I support the liberation of women, I am simply pointing out the sheer naivety of telling entrenched cultural/religious norms to kindly 'go away'.

The topics I entered are not some obscure laws practised in a small country, light-years away in a far galaxy…

No, most of them are just common business in any Muslim community.

Most of them are practised by instance in the Muslim quarter of Antwerp (Borgerhout).

They are not *just* written in the qu’ran, no those ‘rules’ are very active today even inside the Western society.

Goody for you. And in every decent, tolerant, enlightened nation on this planet the choice is up to you! All yours!

Now guess the dominant culture of the others.

Yes the choice is up to everyone.

I don't like one aspect forced on women being considered sexist while others aren't given the same designation.

Choice is the key and the veil cannot be considered sexist if Muslim women make the choice to wear it because they want to and not because they must.

These kinds of self-righteous 'moral high ground' arguments always make me laugh, it's like the person all inspired because of their 'Western values' going and telling another culture/religion that what they is doing is all wrong because it conflicts with my standards (which are non-existent in the Muslim world).

Sorry dude, but any culture that oppresses women simply because of their gender is, simply, wrong.

Yes the choice is up to everyone.

I don't like one aspect forced on women being considered sexist while others aren't given the same designation.

Choice is the key and the veil cannot be considered sexist if Muslim women make the choice to wear it because they want to and not because they must.

Just because they live in the West where the veil isn't law, doesn't mean they're not pressured by their family and peers to wear it.

Sorry dude, but any culture that oppresses women simply because of their gender is, simply, wrong.

Heh and how do you know that this, cultural belief of yours, is actually 'right'.

Heh and how do you know that this, cultural belief of yours, is actually 'right'.

... Because I'm not an idiot who oppresses women because they're women?

Just because they live in the West where the veil isn't law, doesn't mean they're not pressured by their family and peers to wear it.

They, in many, many case, are not forced or pressurised into it, but choose to wear it, or not.

They, in many, many case, are not forced or pressurised into it, but choose to wear it, or not.

I'm not saying there aren't. But many times, people assume they have a choice because they live in the West. It's just an illusion of choice.

... Because I'm not an idiot who oppresses women because they're women?

Hey you answered a question with a question! So what you say amounts to, 'coz I said so'

Yes the choice is up to everyone.

I don't like one aspect forced on women being considered sexist while others aren't given the same designation.

Choice is the key and the veil cannot be considered sexist if Muslim women make the choice to wear it because they want to and not because they must.

A Muslim girl, living in the West, one that was always used wearing a veil can't suddenly drop it on the floor.

Or it will have to drop her husband, friends and family.

So, she has no choice.

Is this normal?

I'm not saying there aren't. But many times, people assume they have a choice because they live in the West. It's just an illusion of choice.

I would argue your usage of the word many. I would change that to some.

Before I pick your logic attacking Islam apart, realise this. Every religion in the world has to deal with the culture it is adopted by ruining it. And no religion has ever been completely adopted by any group, it is always selectivly used depending on the time.

• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra.
Not actually law in Islam. Only the hair and breasts need to be covered. Some countries, such as Saudi Arabia go farther because of extreemist interpretations, and partially because some of their leaders realise people are stupid and horny and will always try to get around this. But the end result is that the veil is not legislated in Islam the religion.


• Women can’t drive a car (in some countries), men can.
The Qu'ran doesn't even mention cars. But property and travel rights are equal for both men and women. Not driving cars is just a social control system in use by that country to keep itself in power, but again it's not legislated in Islam. And it's also currently limited to Saudi Arabia, which is about as bad as the Taliban anyway.

• In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man.
This is complicated because the Qu'ran only gives word on the testimonials regarding financial issues. And there is says testimonials by two men, or by one man and two women may be accecpted. But nowhere else does it state anything regarding legal testimony, so there are lots of opnions. This one again you can chaulk up to cultural stupidity.


• It’s common in Islam countries that killers pay a fine (=diyyat) to the victims their relatives or family. But killing a woman is cheaper: half the price of the man! This is actually written in the law codex of several Muslim countries.
Cultural stupidity pure and simple. This is actually banned by the Qu'ran, as it falls outside judicial proceedings, and taking another's life outside of warfare is a major sin.


• In some Islam countries men are allowed to practise polygamy. They can have several women. But women can’t have several men.
As with any number of other religious beliefs. Although in most modern countries this is simply not followed. It is also nessecary to remember the actual status of the marrige. While this looks good on paper to any man who now thinks he can sleep with up to four women, it doesn't work that way. A man is limited to four wives, and has to provide equal and adequate funding to every one of his wives and their families, as well as seperate housing. When you cosider the cost of raising one family, it's high, now multiply it by two for two wives, three for three, and so on. Because Islam at least makes this a huge burden on the man.
But it's still unfair women can't do it too.


• When they marry, men are asked to be nice for their women. Women will be asked to obey their men.
Islamic marriage is complicated, and both sides have obilgations in the Qu'ran to eachother, many of them equal. So rather then go through all of that I'll simply state this: Same with every other religion.


• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men. In some countries and under certain conditions women can try to convince a male judge to grant a divorce.
Legally, women in Islam can get a divorce easily. Wether or not what's written in the Qu'ran by an oppressive leader is a different story.


• When women have their menstruation they are considered to be unclean and they are advised to stay away from the mosque.
As with every other religion. For a very very very long time now the menstrual period has been considered uncleen by virtually every religion and culture that has been around. Which is odd considering that it is nessecary for life.


• In these mosques, the best ‘seats’ are for the men. They can sit in front, women sit always behind them or are just separated from the men.
This is odd, as it's not in the Qu'ran as well. It's more a cultural thing. There are many mosques that are equal and mixed in their seating. Of course in the US there is a serious shortage of US born and educated Imams and other religious leaders of Islam, so they all come from overseas, mostly from extremist places like Saudi Arabia. You can see where the fun ensues there.


• The last 200 years there is not one single female jurist in any Muslim country.
You need to do some reading. Pakistan and a few countries in Africa have had a number of women not only in the judicial process but in high positions. Pakistan and Balgladesh have both had women heads of government, elected at that.


• In most Muslim countries both sexes can vote. In Saudi Arabia women can’t at all and in Lebanon only women have to proof they are educated before they can vote.
This is because Saudi Arabia sucks. As far as I'm concerned the Saudis should be removed from power, they're as bad as the Taliban, easily.
And Lebanon has been going through such crap over the past 30 years it's a wonder anything happens there that doesn't involve fighting these days.

Hey you answered a question with a question! So what you say amounts to, 'coz I said so'

What, so I'm WRONG in not oppressing women?

You sexist fuck.

A Muslim girl, living in the West, one that was always used wearing a veil can't suddenly drop it on the floor.

Or it will have to drop her husband, friends and family.

So, she has no choice.

Is this normal?

Have you got any evidance to backup this statement?

I have never seen you spend this much time defending Christianity.....

I've never seen anyone on NS spend that much time defending Christianity.

...

I've never seen anyone on NS defend Christianity.

Sharia Law is what not Arab countries operatere under, and it is not based entirely on the Qu'ran but mostly on the Haditha, which is not the holy doctrine of Islam. Sharia law is also primarily culture based as well.

Further, what you cite as part of Islam is not derived from the religion itself but rather from culture.

In fact you're quite wrong with your information, as what you list is not taken from the Qu'ran in any form and in most cases you have it backwards.

Islam does not make women second class citizens, it's the country that they are part of that does this. The reasons are culturally influenced. The use of religion to suppress them comes from gross misinterpretation of the Qu'ran.



There is no passage that says that women must wear the veil. In fact, the passages related to modesty can be interpreted in many different ways and are often taken out of context. After all, the passage used to justify veils is used for the niqab, the chador, the burqa and the hijab, which are all fastened differently and cover different amounts.

24 Light
24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

It says nothing of covering the head. The bosom is the chest, so this can be taken to mean to cover the chest area.

This is a passage that can be interpreted depending on how one reads it. Further, another issue with this is that it doesn't make it clear what must be covered.



This is has nothing to do with Islam. In fact, this is done by a nation's laws.



That's Sharia law; a law that may have been influenced by the Qu'ran but was never written in the Qu'ran itself.

There are plenty of cases where several witnesses are needed. For example in the case of adultery; three witnesses are needed but this is often overlooked when the accused is a female. The three witnesses must have observed the act and be privy to the knowledge for a the charge to be upheld.

The countries themselves act differently because conservative imans interpreted Sharia to suit their needs.



Yes it's in the Qu'ran... but also found in the Old Testament in Christianity and Judaism, the same exists.

Leviticus 27:3-7...

27:3 And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary.
27:4 And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.
27:5 And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.
27:6 And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.
27:7 And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels.



Polygamy was permitted under Islamic scripture when there were fewer men than women, and the man could provide equally for all his wives, and give them his attention equally. If a man couldn't do that, he is not permitted to have multiple wives.



All believers are first to obey Allah above all else.



It is equal in Islam, though in Islamic nations it's frowned upon.

It is laid out in the Qu'ran the instructions for divorce, and one of those instructions is that there must be witnesses to the divorce, and that believers must divorce three times. Those three times are to allow the couple time to try and resolve what may be the problem.

Women are permitted to request divorce.

The nations that don't allow it are those already ignoring their rights, are justifying it using the Qu'ran taken out of context.



But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, and hath not ... come near to a menstruous woman.... Ezekiel 18:5

And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean. Leviticus 15:19-24

They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times.... Quran 2:222

Gee, something else Judeo-Christian and Islamic scripture and beliefs have in common. And it seems that the OT has more to say about this than the Qu'ran does.



Sounds like Orthodox Judaism.



And what does this have to do with Islam? This is culture at work here.



What does voting have to do with Islam? While the nations be Islamic, the vote is not specified at all in Islamic scripture.

Almost all that you find wrong with "Islam" is derived from the fact that fundamentalism is now the current line of thinking.



There are plenty of people living in Europe and North America who should follow the laws but don't, and many people are ill-informed about their rights here, even when they are born here.

Religion is generally not female friendly.



Wow, you know nothing about Islam because if you did, you'd know that Islam is a dry religion and that bars would not be generally accepted as bars as a place where one goes to wet their whistle. Alcoholic drinks are strictly forbidden in Islam.

the veil is not a symbol of sexism when the woman wears it by choice. When either gender is forced into a role or forced to do something because of perceived stereotypes, that's sexism.

I have it somewhere but I need to find it... a male friend of mine listed what is forbidden for men in Islam (and there was a lot of it too)... when I find it, I'll post it. I have it stored in a chat log... somewhere...

I have never seen you spend this much time defending Christianity.....

I have never seen you spend this much time defending Christianity.....

*shrug* I've never seen her spend that much time defending Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism, and Scientology either.

A Muslim girl, living in the West, one that was always used wearing a veil can't suddenly drop it on the floor.

Or it will have to drop her husband, friends and family.

So, she has no choice.

Is this normal?

That is simply not true... It may perhaps change their perception of her. Still, I know many Muslim girls that do not wear the hejab and they are perfectly accepted by their friends and families.

Wearing the hejab has more to do with identity and image than with being forced by family and friends.

*shrug* I've never seen her spend that much time defending Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism, and Scientology either.

I call it the NS Religious Rule: the more rational and peaceful a religion, the more NSers will hate it.

The topics I entered are not some obscure laws practised in a small country, light-years away in a far galaxy…

No, most of them are just common business in any Muslim community.

Most of them are practised by instance in the Muslim quarter of Antwerp (Borgerhout).

They are not *just* written in the qu’ran, no those ‘rules’ are very active today even inside the Western society.

Most of the topics you mentioned are practiced in Antwerp? I find that hard to believe since most of them are laws enacted by Islamic governments.

• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra. Women don't have to wear a veil in Belgium.
• Women can’t drive a car (in some countries), men can. As above, no.
• In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man. See above.
• It’s common in Islam countries that killers pay a fine (=diyyat) to the victims their relatives or family. But killing a woman is cheaper: half the price of the man! This is actually written in the law codex of several Muslim countries. Above...
• In some Islam countries men are allowed to practise polygamy. They can have several women. But women can’t have several men.
• When they marry, men are asked to be nice for their women. Women will be asked to obey their men.
• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men. In some countries and under certain conditions women can try to convince a male judge to grant a divorce. Above...
• When women have their menstruation they are considered to be unclean and they are advised to stay away from the mosque.
• In these mosques, the best ‘seats’ are for the men. They can sit in front, women sit always behind them or are just separated from the men.
• The last 200 years there is not one single female jurist in any Muslim country. Above...
• In most Muslim countries both sexes can vote. In Saudi Arabia women can’t at all and in Lebanon only women have to proof they are educated before they can vote. Also above.

Are the sexist undertones of Islam evident in some Muslim communities in the West? Most likely. However, considering most of your gripes with Islam as detailed in the OP refer to laws enacted by Islamic theocracies, the above quote is in error.

There is obviously pressure by Muslim hard-liners in the West to get female Muslims (and male ones, for that matter) to conform to the sexist aspects of Islamic law, but when it's not a legal obligation, then Christians, for example, do no worse. Also, although not in terms of sexism, generally, Christians fundamentalist hard-liners are more troublesome in that they can and do force their ignorance on the population in law, unlike the Muslim ones who really have no power over the non-Muslims.

I call it the NS Religious Rule: the more rational and peaceful a religion, the more NSers will hate it.

*shrug* Christianity, Hinduism, and Scientology (since I don't know all that much about Taoism) are far from peaceful religions (I'd argue that Scientology isn't even a religion, but that's a topic for another thread). Christianity has had a 2000 year long, violent, and bloody history. Christian PEOPLE, I'm fine with. Hinduism, despite professing to be a religion of non-violence, has had a 5 THOUSAND long history of bloodshed and ethnic tension, xenophobia, and draconic practices with regard to women's rights. Hindu PEOPLE, I'm more or less fine with.

What, so I'm WRONG in not oppressing women?

You sexist fuck.

Oi Oi!

First off, while I may be considered a fuck in many aspects of my life, a sexist fuck I am not.

Secondly I only posted what I did to highlight the absurdity inherent in using ones own culture to slag off another.

the question I asked you was serious, and I wanted a serious answer, yet what I got was 'kneejerk reaction'. Now place the shoe on the other foot(so to speak) and put yourself into a culture where your cultral practices are lambasted at every turn, and ask how you would feel about that.

In short you say you are right on this matter but have not explained why, other than saying, 'Coz i sed so'

For your referance, I wholly abhor any differance in the treatment of people based around any sort of bias, gender included.

It is though I realise my own cutlral mores that give me this belife, and truthfully I don't know the objective right or wrong of it.(if such a thing exists)

I call it the NS Religious Rule: the more rational and peaceful a religion, the more NSers will hate it.

Any anger at religions on NS is almost exclusively directed towards Christianity, Islam and a bit of Scientology here and there when it comes up. Sometimes Hinduism, as above, but not very often. Your rule doesn't really have many examples to go on.

no, what she will usually say is that religious people are stupid, uneducated, irrational jerks, and everyone should grow up and stop talking to their imaginary friend and the whole world would be a better place, which is what the majority of NS would say.........until you pick on Islam, then they go in to defend it.

Heh it's coz we are all scared on the Iman's!

Look guys I am not saying that women should firstly be homemakers/carers etc, I am simply saying that through the state contract and institution of marriage that it is their social obligation along with the father to bring more life into the world and to increase the population, this may seem dirty to some people but this is of course our primary role as humans, and this institution exists for human survival, the same way the state for human organization. So in that way a women though biology has a different social role through pregnancy to bring up a child as mother, and a father to bring up the child as well, this is a fact. This doesn't mean a woman is inferior from a man, far from it in fact, it means women are invaluable just as much as men. It simply means that we 'specialize' in different social areas, nothing more.

I call it the NS Religious Rule: the more rational and peaceful a religion, the more NSers will hate it.

Nah, if that rule were true, NSG would practically orgasm at the mere mention of Christianity.

*shrug* Christianity, Hinduism, and Scientology (since I don't know all that much about Taoism) are far from peaceful religions (I'd argue that Scientology isn't even a religion, but that's a topic for another thread). Christianity has had a 2000 year long, violent, and bloody history. Christian PEOPLE, I'm fine with. Hinduism, despite professing to be a religion of non-violence, has had a 5 THOUSAND long history of bloodshed and ethnic tension, xenophobia, and draconic practices with regard to women's rights. Hindu PEOPLE, I'm more or less fine with.

I don't care what they DID. I care what they're doing NOW.

*shrug* I've never seen her spend that much time defending Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism, and Scientology either.

no, what she will usually say is that religious people are stupid, uneducated, irrational jerks, and everyone should grow up and stop talking to their imaginary friend and the whole world would be a better place, which is what the majority of NS would say.........until you pick on Islam, then they go in to defend it.

Look guys I am not saying that women should firstly be homemakers/carers etc, I am simply saying that through the state contract and institution of marriage that it is their social obligation along with the father to bring more life into the world and to increase the population, this may seem dirty to some people but this is of course our primary role as humans, and this institution exists for human survival, the same way the state for human organization. So in that way a women though biology has a different social role through pregnancy to bring up a child as mother, and a father to bring up the child as well, this is a fact. This doesn't mean a woman is inferior from a man, far from it in fact, it means women are invaluable just as much as men. It simply means that we 'specialize' in different social areas, nothing more.
that's BS.

I have never seen you spend this much time defending Christianity.....

I have heard this before and it is not always fair. I myself tend to defend Islam for two reasons. First, it is a subject of interest and study for me and I hear a lot of nonsense being spread about how it is bad, and how it is more so than other religions and cultures.

Second, in my country Islam is a minority religion. It is also the religion of ethnic minorities in my country, who are at the bottom of the social ladder and have a hard time climbing the steps. I see some success stories but it is extra difficult mainly because of (unconscious) bias. When I see that many people are bashing Islam, it feels like kicking people when they are down. Sure you can and may depict the prophet in some hurtful way, but why on earth should you hurt these people for no reason?

I am generally respectful towards all religions even though I am not religious myself. I see however no need to defend Christianity as its people are less vulnerable.

It doesn't matter that in countries like Saudi Arabia homosexuals are killed for being gay, because that's not all of Islam, however Christians are a bunch of dicks because this one guy in Kansas and his kids go around with mean signs at funerals.

Does anyone seriously think that Fred Phelps is an accurate representation of Christians in general? Anyone on this forum at all? Anyone in the world?

I don't care what they DID. I care what they're doing NOW.

Ohh you mean like widowed wifes, jumping on the funeral pier of the dead husband? Or like widowed wifes, mutilating themselves by cutting of a finger or two? Or the wholly sexist practice of young Hindu woman tying little pieces of string around the wrists of their big brothers to remind them of their obligation to look after their younger sisters! Disgusting!

I don't care what they DID. I care what they're doing NOW.

It doesn't matter that in countries like Saudi Arabia homosexuals are killed for being gay, because that's not all of Islam, however Christians are a bunch of dicks because this one guy in Kansas and his kids go around with mean signs at funerals.

that's BS.

Care to elaborate rather than just being rude?

Ohh you mean like widowed wifes, jumping on the funeral pier of the dead husband? Or like widowed wifes, mutilating themselves by cutting of a finger or two? Or the wholly sexist practice of young Hindu woman tying little pieces of string around the wrists of their big brothers to remind them of their obligation to look after their younger sisters! Disgusting!

Is that what that is? I was always told by my parents that it was meant to be a sort of good luck charm for soldiers going off to war (since many never came back).

Still, it's a stupid ceremony that was responsible for me having to leave the Philly Meetup early.

fine, I am not a baby factory, my husband is not better suited to work than I am, and my children are not better cared for by me just because I have a uterus.

...and boobs, you forgot the boobs!

Does anyone seriously think that Fred Phelps is an accurate representation of Christians in general? Anyone on this forum at all? Anyone in the world?

If you ever say anything about tolerant Christianity you get a whole load of links about Phelps and crew, and about TV evangelists, and the sort.....however when you have countries where the religious have passed laws that say that people are to be put to death because of their sexual orientation, you get a big "nu-uh, that's not all of Islam, you are being mean, why do you hurt these people for no reason?"

it's true.

Care to elaborate rather than just being rude?

fine, I am not a baby factory, my husband is not better suited to work than I am, and my children are not better cared for by me just because I have a uterus.

It doesn't matter that in countries like Saudi Arabia homosexuals are killed for being gay, because that's not all of Islam, however Christians are a bunch of dicks because this one guy in Kansas and his kids go around with mean signs at funerals.

Surely it matters, but why bash Islam for Saudi Arabia? Is there anything we can do about the Saudi govt.? well probably, but this would not go well with the US administration :p

I say, let everyone start with the problems in their own society... Instead of bitching to another so one can simply ignore one's own faults (which, for the record, I do not say you are doing;))

Is that what that is? I was always told by my parents that it was meant to be a sort of good luck charm for soldiers going off to war (since many never came back).

Still, it's a stupid ceremony that was responsible for me having to leave the Philly Meetup early.

Heheh and how long have you been a soldier?

some men have boobs.......it's kinda gross really, but I am not really one to judge.

Thats true, but they are called moobs!

...and boobs, you forgot the boobs!

some men have boobs.......it's kinda gross really, but I am not really one to judge.

Most of the topics you mentioned are practiced in Antwerp? I find that hard to believe since most of them are laws enacted by Islamic governments.....

• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra. Women don't have to wear a veil in Belgium.

I want to see it happen. Muslim girl, veiled since she was 14, living in Antwerp, married, is having children...
And suddenly she says at 26 'I am not in the mood anymore for that veil...'

If she is lucky she'll not be beaten by her husband, brothers and father.
If she is lucky the neighbourhood will just shout 'whore' to her when she is passing by.
If she is lucky her man will not divorce.
Going to the mosque? Forget it.

Nah, this will not happen. Not one smart Muslim girl will drop her veil in Antwerp.


• Women can’t drive a car (in some countries), men can. As above, no.

They actual can. But...go to your local Muslimhood. Count the female and male drivers! It will be something as: 2 females, 98 males.

• In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man. See above.

• It’s common in Islam countries that killers pay a fine (=diyyat) to the victims their relatives or family. But killing a woman is cheaper: half the price of the man! This is actually written in the law codex of several Muslim countries. Above...

• In some Islam countries men are allowed to practise polygamy. They can have several women. But women can’t have several men.


Antwerp is not an Islam city. And even in that case...testimonials are not only used in court but in everyday life, to solve disputes...


• When they marry, men are asked to be nice for their women. Women will be asked to obey their men.


It is the case, also in Antwerp.


• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men. In some countries and under certain conditions women can try to convince a male judge to grant a divorce. Above...

Again, Antwerp isn't a Muslim city and Belgium isn't a Muslim state.

Also, it's not that our law is providing women, including Muslim ones, to demand a divorce that they actual will use that right.
Culture and social behaviour is sometimes more powerfull than any law.

• When women have their menstruation they are considered to be unclean and they are advised to stay away from the mosque.

Yes, also in Antwerp.

• In these mosques, the best ‘seats’ are for the men. They can sit in front, women sit always behind them or are just separated from the men.

Yes, also in Antwerp

• The last 200 years there is not one single female jurist in any Muslim country. Above...

• In most Muslim countries both sexes can vote. In Saudi Arabia women can’t at all and in Lebanon only women have to proof they are educated before they can vote. Also above.

Antwerp isn't an Islam city. *sigh*

And actual even in Antwerp Muslim female jurists are very very very rare. Do they exist at all?

I was talking about female jurists in ANY Muslim country, the last TWO HUNDRED years.

Yes they can vote. Last elections there were some incidents with Muslim husbands 'helping' their wives voting...

The last is not common behaviour for Muslims in Antwerp.

Heheh and how long have you been a soldier?

Admittedly, it's an outdated tradition that is long past its time.

fine, I am not a baby factory
I never said that. But it's extremely selfish to think 'I don't have to have children, I'll leave it up to everyone else to increase the population', imagine if everyone thought like that and disregarded that great social duty to the community. This is exactly why libertarianism an an ideology is so incredibly destructive to society, in encourages people not to care about the community, to just take the money and wealth and just leave without obligation.

and my children are not better cared for by me just because I have a uterus.
Well I assume women would cherish being able to bring up their child and have that experience, sure state assistance such a child care, welfare etc should be given if required.

my husband is not better suited to work than I am
I never said that, but biologically males and females have different purposes, you can't argue against that.

Just because they live in the West where the veil isn't law, doesn't mean they're not pressured by their family and peers to wear it.

This can be applied to other belief systems and cultures. It stems beyond simply whether or not the family wants the girl to don the veil.

My husband comes under pressure from his family because he refuses to participate in some of what he called "Jewish crap". It applies to all. There is choice and some families have learned to respect it, like my parents do, while others don't want to accept it and want the children to follow the family's religion even if the child doesn't believe in it.

A Muslim girl, living in the West, one that was always used wearing a veil can't suddenly drop it on the floor.

Or it will have to drop her husband, friends and family.

So, she has no choice.

Is this normal?

She has the choice. She can "drop" it as you kindly put it.

Yes there are families who don't like it, as I said above but it applies to all different walks of life. And yes, actually, considering the way most religions and cultures work, it would be normal for pressure to conform to exist.

I have never seen you spend this much time defending Christianity.....

Christianity has plenty of people to defend it. It doesn't need more people to defend it. Those without much clout in their corner need more help.

*shrug* I've never seen her spend that much time defending Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism, and Scientology either.

Hinduism hasn't come under fire, plus I don't know much about it so I can't defend it or say anything about it.

I'd never defend Scientology because it's just pure crap.

Taoism? It's been insulted on this forums? When? And what exactly can be insults about it?

Judaism... I'd love to defend it except well... it's like Christianity and it has many people ready to defend it and it's got too many stupid rules... kind of like every other religion.

The only reason I defend Islam is because I actually know something about it, plus I know a few Muslims, one of whom is my best friend I haven't seen the more conservative crap come up. And the same friend admitted that Atheism suits my personality more than any religion could.

Care to guess why else I might defend Muslims and not Christians or Jews? It has to do with the fact that Jews and Christians have preached to me while I've never been preached at by a Muslim.

I want to see it happen. Muslim girl, veiled since she was 14, living in Antwerp, married, is having children...
And suddenly she says at 26 'I am not in the mood anymore for that veil...'

If she is lucky she'll not be beaten by her husband, brothers and father.
If she is lucky the neighbourhood will just shout 'whore' to her when she is passing by.
If she is lucky her man will not divorce.
Going to the mosque? Forget it.

Nah, this will not happen. Not one smart Muslim girl will drop her veil in Antwerp.




They actual can. But...go to your local Muslimhood. Count the female and male drivers! It will be something as: 2 females, 98 males.




Antwerp is not an Islam city. And even in that case...testimonials are not only used in court but in everyday life, to solve disputes...





It is the case, also in Antwerp.




Again, Antwerp isn't a Muslim city and Belgium isn't a Muslim state.

Also, it's not that our law is providing women, including Muslim ones, to demand a divorce that they actual will use that right.
Culture and social behaviour is sometimes more powerfull than any law.



Yes, also in Antwerp.



Yes, also in Antwerp



Antwerp isn't an Islam city. *sigh*

And actual even in Antwerp Muslim female jurists are very very very rare. Do they exist at all?

I was talking about female jurists in ANY Muslim country, the last TWO HUNDRED years.

Yes they can vote. Last elections there were some incidents with Muslim husbands 'helping' their wives voting...

The last is not common behaviour for Muslims in Antwerp.

Um, yes, the fact that Antwerp wasn't an Islamic city was sort of the whole point, considering you essentially claimed that Islamic laws were enforced there.

I never said that. But it's extremely selfish to think 'I don't have to have children, I'll leave it up to everyone else to increase the population', imagine if everyone thought like that and disregarded that great social duty to the community. This is exactly why libertarianism an an ideology is so incredibly destructive to society, in encourages people not to care about the community, to just take the money and wealth and just leave without obligation.

Imagine if everyone thought that it was their obligation to have as many children as possible to perform their 'great social duty'. Frankly, society would be absolutely screwed. Not having children displays more care for the community.

[...]The last is not common behaviour for Muslims in Antwerp.

The last time I checked Antwerp and Flanders in general is a bastion of rightwing extremists and racism... perhaps you should start with your own society... and how it treats minorities :rolleyes:

ANTWERP, Belgium: A black woman and a white child were shot and killed in the historic center of this Belgian port city on Thursday in what the government and the police said was a racist attack.

The assailant, an 18-year-old man, also shot and seriously wounded a woman of Turkish origin before he was shot in the stomach by a police officer. The suspect was under guard in a hospital.

"These horrible and cowardly crimes are a form of extreme racism," Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt said in a statement. "Nobody can ignore what the far right can lead to." He appealed to all communities in Belgium to react cautiously to the crimes.

"We have to avoid our society being sucked into a spiral of violence," Verhofstadt said. "The police and the judicial system will do all that is needed for justice to be done. Ours is a tolerant society and that is how it must stay."

The authorities did not identify the gunman Thursday night, but they said they suspected that he had far-right sympathies.

Um, yes, the fact that Antwerp wasn't an Islamic city was sort of the whole point, considering you essentially claimed that Islamic laws were enforced there.


And so they are. Sure, not all of them.

The Antwerp Muslims do not marry 9 year-old girls.
The Antwerp Muslims do not cut away clitorises.

But I'm not sure about the Muslims in Paris.

The last time I checked Antwerp and Flanders in general is a bastion of rightwing extremists and racism... perhaps you should start with your own society... and how it treats minorities :rolleyes:

And black people don't kill whites or vice versa in USA or UK or anywhere else?

Sure, we have extremist racist criminals.

And that's an excuse to dominate women? Come on...


Next time, you should check Antwerp and Flanders with more care. We don't have rightwing extremist parties.
We have right-winged parties. They are equal extremist as to the Republicans in USA.

And even in that case, an outstanding majority didn't vote for that party.
Antwerp or Flanders are not a bastion of rightwing extremists and racism.

fine, I am not a baby factory

Why does this bring up images of long lines of Soviet workers with heavy industrial equipment churning out standard patter, but usual low Soviet quality, infants as part of the alternating five year plans?

"Da comcade, you are on the list to be provided a child by the glorius state. But you may have to wait, demand is high and the baby plan is almost over."

Why does this bring up images of long lines of Soviet workers with heavy industrial equipment churning out standard patter, but usual low Soviet quality, infants as part of the alternating five year plans?

"Da comcade, you are on the list to be provided a child by the glorius state. But you may have to wait, demand is high and the baby plan is almost over."

In Soviet Russia, babies make you!

Sorry, I had to.

Considering it's Andaras Prime, in this context that image is... eerie.

And black people don't kill whites or vice versa in USA or UK or anywhere else?

Sure, we have extremist racist criminals.

And that's an excuse to dominate women? Come on...

Racism thrives in there and your statements seem to been borm from bias, rather than facts. The domination of women in Islam in the west as you describe it is very rare. It does not exclusively exists in Islamic communities either, but also in "white" belgian communities...

I never said that. But it's extremely selfish to think 'I don't have to have children, I'll leave it up to everyone else to increase the population', imagine if everyone thought like that and disregarded that great social duty to the community. This is exactly why libertarianism an an ideology is so incredibly destructive to society, in encourages people not to care about the community, to just take the money and wealth and just leave without obligation.
it is extremely selfish to have children "for the good of the world".


Well I assume women would cherish being able to bring up their child and have that experience, sure state assistance such a child care, welfare etc should be given if required.
You assume wrongly. I know many women who choose to work, I even know men who are stay at home dads.


I never said that, but biologically males and females have different purposes, you can't argue against that.
biologically is not the same as socially, you were talking about social roles.

Racism thrives in there and your statements seem to been borm from bias, rather than facts. The domination of women in Islam in the west as you describe it is very rare. It does not exclusively exists in Islamic communities either, but also in "white" belgian communities...

Shhhh... she doesn't want to hear that.

[sarcasm]Remember, if the media tells us that women in the west are free and those in the Islamic world aren't, it must be true. [/quote]

She is ignoring the sexism that occurs in the west. I mean, look at beauty product commercials. Those are so degrading. Those women are so air-brushed, and look like nothing more than eye candy; sex objects.

Racism thrives in there and your statements seem to been borm from bias, rather than facts. The domination of women in Islam in the west as you describe it is very rare. It does not exclusively exists in Islamic communities either, but also in "white" belgian communities...

Sure. We have some hillbillies demanding their wives to bring fresh beers. Now!

But we don't have hundred thousands of them.

Shhhh... she doesn't want to hear that.

[sarcasm]Remember, if the media tells us that women in the west are free and those in the Islamic world aren't, it must be true.

She is ignoring the sexism that occurs in the west. I mean, look at beauty product commercials. Those are so degrading. Those women are so air-brushed, and look like nothing more than eye candy; sex objects.

Is it illegal for women in the west to not wear beauty products?

Shhhh... she doesn't want to hear that.

[sarcasm]Remember, if the media tells us that women in the west are free and those in the Islamic world aren't, it must be true.

She is ignoring the sexism that occurs in the west. I mean, look at beauty product commercials. Those are so degrading. Those women are so air-brushed, and look like nothing more than eye candy; sex objects.[/QUOTE]

I like to be a sex object. What's more. I'm a sex object and being proud I am one.

And so they are. Sure, not all of them.

The Antwerp Muslims do not marry 9 year-old girls.
The Antwerp Muslims do not cut away clitorises.

But I'm not sure about the Muslims in Paris.

Only few Muslims do.. in certain regions Africa from Egypt to sub-Saharan Africa girls are circumcised, however this is a regional practice that is also practiced by Christians and therefore not an Islamic phenomenon.

As for the age of marriage, the only country I know of to have such a low age of marriage is Iran. And the average Iranian age of marriage remains in the twenties and has only increased since the this law was passed...

yes, but what about right now?

Inflation has raised the price of killing women to almost equal to that of a man. The price of ammunition evens it out.

• It’s common in Islam countries that killers pay a fine (=diyyat) to the victims their relatives or family. But killing a woman is cheaper: half the price of the man! This is actually written in the law codex of several Muslim countries.

The price and value of a woman is lower even in the Bible...It's the culture that spawned the religion that is to blame.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/wom_list.html

The price and value of a woman is lower even in the Bible...It's the culture that spawned the religion that is to blame.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/wom_list.html

yes, but what about right now?

it is extremely selfish to have children "for the good of the world".
Your being too broad, for the good of your nation.


You assume wrongly. I know many women who choose to work, I even know men who are stay at home dads.
And I don't oppose that, as long as the child is well cared and provided for. I spose having paid maternity leave is a good issue for that.

biologically is not the same as socially, you were talking about social roles.
Well biologically because women give birth inherently gives them a social role as mothers.

Inflation has raised the price of killing women to almost equal to that of a man. The price of ammunition evens it out.

One needs more shots to take a woman down, you mean?

[insert that quote about bleeding and not dying and not trusting or whatever it was here]

I like to be a sex object. What's more. I'm a sex object and being proud I am one.

That is your right, as it is the right of a muslim woman to wear the hejab if she wants to.. se may even wear the hejab and be a sex object if that is her thing...

But why would you say that woman are oppressed when they make different choices than you would?

Only few Muslims do.. in certain regions Africa from Egypt to sub-Saharan Africa girls are circumcised, however this is a regional practice that is also practiced by Christians and therefore not an Islamic phenomenon.

As for the age of marriage, the only country I know of to have such a low age of marriage is Iran. And the average Iranian age of marriage remains in the twenties and has only increased since the this law was passed...


I don't think they do that in Iran.
In Jemen it is accepted and in some Northern African countries.

In Jemen an 'old' (>16) girl that is not married is a 'whore' and cause that she'll never marry.

One needs more shots to take a woman down, you mean?

[insert that quote about bleeding and not dying and not trusting or whatever it was here]

Not really. But when one is sexist enough to want to kill women, one usually wants to shoot more.

Sure. We have some hillbillies demanding their wives to bring fresh beers. Now!

But we don't have hundred thousands of them.

Why on earth do you think that THEY do? Are you a muslim? do you live amongst muslims? do you know what happens behind the front door?

You simply assume on the basis of flimsy information...

I like to be a sex object. What's more. I'm a sex object and being proud I am one.

So you'll feel empowered and free if I demand nude and provacative pictures of you, do nasty things with those pictures, tank about you to my freinds as a thing and not a person, and trat you as not a person, because you want to be an object?

Kinda strange considring you seem to want women's rights.

So get in the kitchen and make me a pie woman, an you better look damn good doing it or else!

yes, but what about right now?

Depends on how much one's Christian sect likes to follow the literal text of Bible.

One common example is the lack of female priests in many denominations of Christianity.

That is your right, as it is the right of a muslim woman to wear the hejab if she wants to.. se may even wear the hejab and be a sex object if that is her thing...

But why would you say that woman are oppressed when they make different choices than you would?

Because I'm not forced to be a sex object.

My father and brothers will not kick my ass because I'm not a sex object.

My husband would never divorce from me, cause I'm a sex object.


What would happen with the Smurf, that one day is wearing a jeans and a white t-shirt?

The other Smurfs would kill him.

I know there's something as Big Smurf and that's why I don't think the Smurfs are realistic.


Go with the flow.

I don't think they do that in Iran.
In Jemen it is accepted and in some Northern African countries.

In Jemen an 'old' (>16) girl that is not married is a 'whore' and cause that she'll never marry.

Perhaps you are right but is is hardly something that is rampant in Islam, now is it... Yemen is not that populous.

The only thing I see is marriage age increasing as women get better education. this is also the case in the Islamic world.

Why on earth do you think that THEY do? Are you a muslim? do you live amongst muslims? do you know what happens behind the front door?

You simply assume on the basis of flimsy information...

I don't have to be a fish to understand fishes their behaviour.

Check out this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_Islam

Because I'm not forced to be a sex object.

My father and brothers will not kick my ass because I'm not a sex object.

My husband would never divorce from me, cause I'm a sex object.



But you assume that Muslims would. I do not recognise it in the Muslims I know.

But you assume that Muslims would. I do not recognise it in the Muslims I know.


I am inclined to agree. I've met more white Christians then I have Musims who would do that kind of crap. In fact I've met a few Muslim women who've knocked guys out for calling them things like whores, and it's not just Muslim guys who will say that.

But you assume that Muslims would. I do not recognise it in the Muslims I know.



Can a Western Muslim girl be a sex object? Without losing her family, friends and stuff?

Sure. We have some hillbillies demanding their wives to bring fresh beers. Now!

But we don't have hundred thousands of them.

Even to ignore whatever links you are making to Islam, are you seriously saying that there aren't hundreds of thousands of men in the west who tell their wives to go get them beers now and be quick about it?

My, you do have an awfully rosy view of gender relations in the western world.

Even to ignore whatever links you are making to Islam, are you seriously saying that there aren't hundreds of thousands of men in the west who tell their wives to go get them beers now and be quick about it?

My, you do have an awfully rosy view of gender relations in the western world.

In Belgium? Wahaha. The average Belgian women say something : "sure dear, but no sex this night for you"

Can a Western Muslim girl be a sex object? Without losing her family, friends and stuff?

The questionyou should be asking, is would a Muslim woman want to? You are talking about a religousg group here, and many religoins are hung up about sex.

The questionyou should be asking, is would a Muslim woman want to? You are talking about a religousg group here, and many religoins are hung up about sex.


Yes, sure. Muslims don't do that.

Yes, sure. Muslims don't do that.

Heh again with the broad sweeping statements. Do you actually, personaly know any Muslims, at all?

Can a Western Muslim girl be a sex object? Without losing her family, friends and stuff?

Oh yes. But they do it better. There are a handfull of Muslim girls who are so drop dead gorgeous that if I wern't such a firm believer in my current religious beliefs, I'd convert just to talk to them.

There is a big difference between being sexy by showing skin and trying to be percieved as willing to put out, and being sexy by creative and selective manipulation if the immagination. And the latter of those two approaches requires the most intelligence as far as I'm concerned.

Is it illegal for women in the west to not wear beauty products?

It isn't but I see it as a form of sexism, the message that is. The message that it conveys is sexist, that beauty cannot exist without help from products. How shallow; that beauty is regarded only skin deep.

I like to be a sex object. What's more. I'm a sex object and being proud I am one.

You want women to have rights yet...?

Ok, so you've said you want it because of choice, but what makes the veil that much different? Why is it if women make the choice to wear the veil it's sexism at work but you wanting to be a sex object isn't? Both are extremes.

Oh yes. But they do it better. There are a handfull of Muslim girls who are so drop dead gorgeous that if I wern't such a firm believer in my current religious beliefs, I'd convert just to talk to them.

There is a big difference between being sexy by showing skin and trying to be percieved as willing to put out, and being sexy by creative and selective manipulation if the immagination. And the latter of those two approaches requires the most intelligence as far as I'm concerned.

That reminds me of something my dad said to me. He thinks that the reason most Arab women are wrapped up is because the men know the women are really good looking and they don't want to share these women with other men.

I am really trying hard not to get drawn into this thread, but there is one point which I think really needs to be clarified.Can a Western Muslim girl be a sex object? Without losing her family, friends and stuff?
Muslim girls are treated as sex objects. The dress codes imposed on them reflect this.

A very common mistake that people are making is that "sex object" means "target of lust." People think that "objectifying" means "looking at somebody lustfully." This is not the case.

"Objectification" means "to regard someone as an object" as opposed to a human and an equal.

To steal a line from one of my favorite writers, there are many cultures that view women as nothing more than a sum of sexual parts to be concealed and revealed depending on whether or not the audience has ponied up properly.

This is often framed as "modesty," or even as a means of "liberating" women from the male gaze (by, of course, forcing women to change their behavior instead of requiring that men change theirs).

The reality? IT IS OBJECTIFICATION.

It's just as much a form of sexism and objectification as wet t-shirt contests and Western miniskirt culture.

It's just as much a form of sexism and objectification as wet t-shirt contests and Western miniskirt culture.

Even when women are keen to objectify themselves in order to gain something?

I think it's silly to generalize the situation of 'women wanting to look good/cheap/sexy/etc..' as objectification when its something they want to do even without any specific reason to do so.

eg. You don't generally have to *force* girls into wet T-shirt competition "to become objects", instead they voluntarily take part in one. Why? For prize, feeling of being adored, torture (look, but don't touch! :p) or something quite else, I don't know.

My point is that abusing one's sexuality is a freedom that can be used if the person so desires in the Western World.

It isn't but I see it as a form of sexism, the message that is. The message that it conveys is sexist, that beauty cannot exist without help from products. How shallow; that beauty is regarded only skin deep.



You want women to have rights yet...?

Ok, so you've said you want it because of choice, but what makes the veil that much different? Why is it if women make the choice to wear the veil it's sexism at work but you wanting to be a sex object isn't? Both are extremes.

Oh, I agree, but I don't think it comparable to what women face under Islamic governments. I'm still arguing against Edwinasia since I don't see it as an inherent fault of the religion, at least no more so than the others, but I find it difficult to deny that sexism against women in the Middle East is just a bit more extreme than that in the west.

Can a Western Muslim girl be a sex object? Without losing her family, friends and stuff?

If she would want I think she can. Though upbringin and values may induce her to take a less explicit sexual stance.

Even when women are keen to objectify themselves in order to gain something?

I think it's silly to generalize the situation of 'women wanting to look good/cheap/sexy/etc..' as objectification when its something they want to do even without any specific reason to do so.

eg. You don't generally have to *force* girls into wet T-shirt competition "to become objects", instead they voluntarily take part in one. Why? For prize, feeling of being adored, torture (look, but don't touch! :p) or something quite else, I don't know.

My point is that abusing one's sexuality is a freedom that can be used if the person so desires in the Western World.

You do realize that someone can objectify themselves, yes? And if society not only approves and endorses of this self-objectification, then it too objectifies them?

they do so to compete with other women, not because they necessarily want to.

Right, other women are more important in the behaviour of women than men. This is no different for muslim women.

That reminds me of something my dad said to me. He thinks that the reason most Arab women are wrapped up is because the men know the women are really good looking and they don't want to share these women with other men.

One Muslim woman I talked to said she prefered to cover herself, although she didn't ever wear a veil, because it forced everyone to look her in the eye and talk to her as a person, and not eye her as an object. Which, as a 22 year old male I can understand completely. It is very very hard not enjoy the sight of a pretty young lady in a miniskirt and tank top, and even harder to concentrate on a conversation with her until after you've enjoyed your view. That's just the reality of life, males are driven by sex and visual stimulation. The only way to control how people interact with you is how you interact with them. If you wear those revealing clothes you can't seriously expect in depth conversation with an unrelated male unless it's about the subject of reproduction and relationships. Likewise men can't seriouly expect serious conversation from women if they walk around grunting with a beer in their hand at every pair of female legs that walks by.

So take it on yourself to realise you decide how people approach you. And what you decide will always have consequences. Many Muslim women decide to be approached in such a way as they need to be looked at as people and not objects, and some Muslim men force objectification on their women through the exact same means. It's the context of the individual situation, not the object of use itself, the head scarf is not forcing them to cover up it's who uses the scarf.

Let's not forget forced prostitutes wear miniskirts not from choice but because they are forced to, yet the girl down the street wears it by choice. Is there a difference? Only in the application within the individual.

Even when women are keen to objectify themselves in order to gain something?

I think it's silly to generalize the situation of 'women wanting to look good/cheap/sexy/etc..' as objectification when its something they want to do even without any specific reason to do so.

eg. You don't generally have to *force* girls into wet T-shirt competition "to become objects", instead they voluntarily take part in one. Why? For prize, feeling of being adored or something quite else, I don't know.

My point is that abusing one's sexuality is a freedom that can be used if the person so desires in the Western World.

they do so to compete with other women, not because they necessarily want to.

Even when women are keen to objectify themselves in order to gain something?

I think it's silly to generalize the situation of 'women wanting to look good/cheap/sexy/etc..' as objectification when its something they want to do even without any specific reason to do so.

eg. You don't generally have to *force* girls into wet T-shirt competition "to become objects", instead they voluntarily take part in one. Why? For prize, feeling of being adored, torture (look, but don't touch! :p) or something quite else, I don't know.

You aren't arguing with me, here.

As you said, it's still objectification. It's still sexism. Yes, women are thinking beings who are capable of cost-benefit analysis. Women are able to see that they can personally benefit from participating in patriarchy. Women are quite aware of the many personal perks they can enjoy if they offer themselves up for objectification.

Doesn't change that it's objectification, or that it's sexist. Objectification doesn't require that the object be non-consenting.


My point is that abusing one's sexuality is a freedom that can be used if the person so desires in the Western World.
And my point is that "abusing one's sexuality" is a concept that only exists because of sexism and objectification, both of which dominate the Western world as much as anywhere.

I don't have to be a fish to understand fishes their behaviour.

Check out this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_Islam

You make broad generalising statements about muslims. you assume certain behaviour without much knowledge. You simply assume your predudice to be correct. It is not.

However this can hardly be helped. whenm you will find muslims that do not fit your picture you will think they are the exception. You will not learn that your predudice learnt at an early age is the problem. It is extremely hard to escape your own predudiced beliefs, and sadly it will take a lot of effort to drop these. It is only natural... people like conformity of their beliefs... predudice is hard to eradicate :(

You do realize that someone can objectify themselves, yes? And if society not only approves and endorses of this self-objectification, then it too objectifies them?

Yes, like I said: If they voluntarily do so where is the harm in such an objectification? Isn't it their freedom to do so?

they do so to compete with other women, not because they necessarily want to.

Isn't that a contradictory statement? If they don't want to participate in to a, say, wet T shirt competition but do so to compete against other women for the adoration of men/who knows what isn't it because of their personal desires instead of outside pressure?

One thing I also don't quite understand is the female obsession with high heels and shoes in Western world in general...Why the personal desire to hurt their feet in order to look pleasing?

And my point is that "abusing one's sexuality" is a concept that only exists because of sexism and objectification, both of which dominate the Western world as much as anywhere.

From my viewpoint, this concept of sexism is also promoted and upkept by women. I personally think there is a strong case to be made for desire of women to use their looks for competition.

Infact, can it even be called sexism if the status quo is in general desired and accepted by both sexes?

Right, other women are more important in the behaviour of women than men. This is no different for muslim women.

Hehe and lets ask ourselves why that would be? Could it have anything to do with compatition for sexual partners?

Oh, I agree, but I don't think it comparable to what women face under Islamic governments. I'm still arguing against Edwinasia since I don't see it as an inherent fault of the religion, at least no more so than the others, but I find it difficult to deny that sexism against women in the Middle East is just a bit more extreme than that in the west.

That's why I keep using the word 'choice'; it reinforces the belief that we have the ability to choose and when we make the choice we do it because it is something we want to do.

You're quite right about the state of women under Islamic governments. I'm arguing from a pro-choice stance that says when we can make our own choices it's not sexist to wear the veil.

For me there is no extreme in sexism, it just exists and as long as sexism exists, it's always extreme as it racism and other discrimination.

Hehe and lets ask ourselves why that would be? Could it have anything to do with compatition for sexual partners?

Partly yes, but there seems to be more to it. silly things like respect, status and such :p

Isn't that a contradictory statement? If they don't want to participate in to a, say, wet T shirt competition but do so to compete against other women for the adoration of men/who knows what isn't it because of their personal desires instead of outside pressure?
the pressure for women to compete against other women is so great and has been going on so long that most people just think "that's how women are" and don't realize that we have been socialized to act this way.

One thing I also don't quite understand is the female obsession with high heels and shoes in Western world in general...Why the personal desire to hurt their feet in order to look pleasing?
they actually hurt your back/legs more than they hurt your feet, and also again it's to compete with other women.

the pressure for women to compete against other women is so great and has been going on so long that most people just think "that's how women are" and don't realize that we have been socialized to act this way.

I dunno...It might be biological as it's so permeated.

Though, with the female empowerement men are beginning to compete in areas that once were exclusively for the women only.

Perhaps the way to level the sex-field is to objectify males with, for example, 'wet pants' and 'mr teen USA' competitions instead of removing unquestionably popular elements out of our current culture? :D

Heck, why can't men be sex objects and abuse their looks the same way as women are doing?

they actually hurt your back/legs more than they hurt your feet, and also again it's to compete with other women.

I might be a bit simple in this matter but wearing the right shoes seems to be a genuine desire for (some? many? most?) women, therefore don't they desire the sexual objectification to remain? Don't they enjoy wearing the painful shoes for looks only?

Is the situation so wrong if it's also desired by free-willed and intelligent women...and male->female transsexuals for that matter (they *always* seem to wearing high heels)? Wouldn't any measures to limit the methods of personal objectification limit the freedom of the individual?

That's why I keep using the word 'choice'; it reinforces the belief that we have the ability to choose and when we make the choice we do it because it is something we want to do.

You're quite right about the state of women under Islamic governments. I'm arguing from a pro-choice stance that says when we can make our own choices it's not sexist to wear the veil.

For me there is no extreme in sexism, it just exists and as long as sexism exists, it's always extreme as it racism and other discrimination.

All right, gotcha.

Yet another long thread coattailing on the popular Other-fication of Islam and Muslims. Yay.

:rolleyes:

There seems to be a strong tendency in this thread to identify geocultural norms as religious ones. Make no mistake, Islam is as sexist as most other organized religions, but not any more so. This, in and of itself, is a bad thing but not something requiring any special attention (unless you're addressing sexism in organized religions, as a whole). However, many of the points you made have their roots in the geocultural attitudes from which they're derived and are granted only an ostensible justification through various interpretations of the Qu'ran or the Hadiths, two very distinct things. Anyway, people have pointed out what the distinctions are between the geocultural and religious attitudes you seem to have taken issue with and I need not go into them, except to point out that (giving you the benefit of the doubt and accepting that the Muslim neighborhood in Antwerp tends towards the attitudes you have said) it is unsurprising that first and second generation immigrants will hold onto their geocultural traditions, even in a new country. The fact that these people tend to congregate in tight communities is going to slow any assimilation into Western secular culture, as well.

I can just as easily point out counter-anecdotes, too, though. On my campus I did a round of interviews with local Muslim men and women for a certain class project. Few Muslim women here wear hijabs and those that do claim that it is by choice and many, in fact, find this empowering. Granted, this is anecdotal, but since you have set the standard as such, we are operating under equally valid arguments.

In response to people defending Islam and not clamoring to do the same for other religions...are you on crack? Hell, by the fact that you are defending Christianity in a thread that has nothing to do with it, betrays that all religions have people chomping at the bit just do engage in frenzied defense of them. Unlike Christianity (in the United States), Islam is often very misunderstood and there are few who have the knowledge or background to adequately defend it as compared to Christianity or Judaism. So, please, don't bitch about people defending Islam and attacking Christianity because it's just a silly statement.

I don't support it, I support the liberation of women, I am simply pointing out the sheer naivety of telling entrenched cultural/religious norms to kindly 'go away'.

Is anyone suggesting that we just tell them to 'go away'? The correct thing to do is to mandate equality and non-discrimination by law in our own countries, make the UN Humans Rights Council to do its damn job, and demonstrate unequivocal support for women's rights. Do you have a problem with that?

The Role of Women in the world of Islam.

Like it or not, but for Muslims, women are second class people.

bullshit.

• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra.
Hijab is to women what the beard is to men. They are both outward signs of devotion to God, not a sign of oppression.

• Women can’t drive a car (in some countries), men can.
this is cultural, not Islamic.

• In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man.
and....

• It’s common in Islam countries that killers pay a fine (=diyyat) to the victims their relatives or family. But killing a woman is cheaper: half the price of the man! This is actually written in the law codex of several Muslim countries.
A payment is still required.

• In some Islam countries men are allowed to practise polygamy. They can have several women. But women can’t have several men.

• When they marry, men are asked to be nice for their women. Women will be asked to obey their men.
Because men and women have different roles. Again, doesn't mean oppression.
• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men. In some countries and under certain conditions women can try to convince a male judge to grant a divorce.
This is just flatly wrong

• When women have their menstruation they are considered to be unclean and they are advised to stay away from the mosque.
And men who have had sex or have gone to the bathroom must also take necessary steps of purity before Salat.

• In these mosques, the best ‘seats’ are for the men. They can sit in front, women sit always behind them or are just separated from the men.
Who are you to say what the best 'seats' are?

• The last 200 years there is not one single female jurist in any Muslim country.
and...

• In most Muslim countries both sexes can vote. In Saudi Arabia women can’t at all and in Lebanon only women have to proof they are educated before they can vote.
again, cultural not Islamic.


I consider the Islam as one of the most female unfriendly religions around.
I consider you misinformed about Islam.

By instance, I do not see that many Muslim women wearing no veil at all.

Of course you don't. If they're not wearing a veil, how can you tell she's a Muslim?


I do not see male wearing a veil...

Well, duh. I don't see many males wearing a sanitary napkin either.

Is the bit about a woman's testimony being worth half of a man's from the Koran?

Also, is it from the Koran that the penalty for killing a woman be paid at half the rate of that for killing a man?

(I'm not trying to make a point here, I honestly don't know the answer.)

If these things are actual Islamic doctrine, I think its as sexist as a lot of religions, but not necessarily moreso.

For instance, the Mormons have the roles set up so that the woman is expected to be obedient and submit (according to a member friend of mine), giving the husband an inequitably powerful role (my interpretation, not his).

The reason regarding the veil is the belief that people are driven to marry or fall in love based on looks. The Islamic belief is that by having women wear a veil it reduces the chances of this predicament.

Oh, and in the Qu'ran women are allowed to own land, go to court, read and write. During their time, they far outstripped European women in terms of right. What is here right now are a group of fundamentalist-fueled nations. But there is little part on Islam.

Besides, what's your point in this?

Spare us your incongruent flapdoodle. American women aren't forced to wear shirts to prevent Geneclexis. It's inequality, simple as that.

All the Abrahamic religions are anti-woman.

Next?

Quoted for absolute truth.

Quoted for absolute truth.Again and again.

Or the wholly sexist practice of young Hindu woman tying little pieces of string around the wrists of their big brothers to remind them of their obligation to look after their younger sisters! Disgusting!

I never thought somebody would call Raksha Bandhan as sexist and disgusting. :rolleyes:

Did somebody you liked tie it on you? :p

Is the bit about a woman's testimony being worth half of a man's from the Koran?

Also, is it from the Koran that the penalty for killing a woman be paid at half the rate of that for killing a man?

(I'm not trying to make a point here, I honestly don't know the answer.)

They are a part of hadiths and the sharia derived from hadiths. They are part of islam.

If you look at KSA's retribution structure for killing a person, it is very illuminating how they view others.

muslim man
muslim woman
people of the book
and then come other Kufrs (like moi :p)

They are a part of hadiths and the sharia derived from hadiths. They are part of islam.

If you look at KSA's retribution structure for killing a person, it is very illuminating how they view others.

muslim man
muslim woman
people of the book
and then come other Kufrs (like moi :p)Do they still have casts in India?
Do they still have "untouchables"?

Again and again.

Except Islam is the Guilt-Free Flavor of the Day. Hence all sorts of threads on how backwards, savage, primitive, misogynistic, intolerant, etc. Islam is and Muslims are that spring up like so many goddamn Reality Shows on NSG.

Do they still have casts in India?
Do they still have "untouchables"?

Legally? No.

Does it still continue? Yes.

Do they still have casts in India?
Do they still have "untouchables"?

What the fuck has that got to do with the topic ?

Legally, you can be arrested for even insulting another person by using his caste name. Contrast that with legally codified discrimination.

That's the problem with you.

You just do not see the degrees of differences even though there maybe a basic similarity. It is like saying, as somebody pointed out in this thread, that cats bite and alligators bite. Just because biting is the same does not mean the effect is the same.

Added Later:

NOBODY can insult me by my caste and get away with it (not that I would care...but I can if I want to).

Contrast that with state sanctioned discrimination in the land ruled by "custodians of the faith".

Is Morroco, Indonesia, Nigeria or Turkey Middle East?

Who said, I hate Muslim people?

I hate female unfriendly practices.
I will fight for women.
Damn, I'm a woman!

Or you could move. you don't seem to be shackled, though you probably should be.

You make broad generalising statements about muslims. you assume certain behaviour without much knowledge. You simply assume your predudice to be correct. It is not.

However this can hardly be helped. whenm you will find muslims that do not fit your picture you will think they are the exception. You will not learn that your predudice learnt at an early age is the problem. It is extremely hard to escape your own predudiced beliefs, and sadly it will take a lot of effort to drop these. It is only natural... people like conformity of their beliefs... predudice is hard to eradicate :(

Sure, then correct this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_Islam

Is it?

Then correct this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_Islam

bullshit.


Hijab is to women what the beard is to men. They are both outward signs of devotion to God, not a sign of oppression.


this is cultural, not Islamic.


and....


A payment is still required.


Because men and women have different roles. Again, doesn't mean oppression.

This is just flatly wrong


And men who have had sex or have gone to the bathroom must also take necessary steps of purity before Salat.

Who are you to say what the best 'seats' are?


and...


again, cultural not Islamic.


I consider you misinformed about Islam.

well yes planet Earth does have a few crazy towns, however unless I'm mistaken there is a large Muslim population in Britain and yet I see no sexism

I do have to ask: what if a Muslim woman wants to wear a veil?

What you see and what exists are not necessarilly the same. Sexism is still deeply ingrained and pervasive in our cultures, as in most places.

I never thought somebody would call Raksha Bandhan as sexist and disgusting. :rolleyes:

Did somebody you liked tie it on you? :p

Heh I was in fact being sarcastic. I'm not a Hindu so I have never had it done.

Legally? No.

Does it still continue? Yes.

Is that correct or has the Indian (Hindu)goverement just hidden the caste system under the banner of tribes, and backward classes?

Sure, then correct this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_Islam

It is hard to find your predudice in the article... I do not think your view that of thousants of Belgian Muslims oppress their daughters and wives is supported by the article... Please show me where it does and I will correct it ;)

It is hard to find your predudice in the article... I do not think your view that of thousants of Belgian Muslims oppress their daughters and wives is supported by the article... Please show me where it does and I will correct it ;)

• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra.

Sure, some Muslim women dare to wear none. But, most have to do it. And oh yeah, they all say 'I do it, cause I want to'. Until the day they drop it... *mep-mep*

• In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man.

Testimonials are more than testimonials in courtroom. The word of the man is always more worth than the word of the woman.

• It’s common in Islam countries that killers pay a fine (=diyyat) to the victims their relatives or family. But killing a woman is cheaper: half the price of the man! This is actually written in the law codex of several Muslim countries.

While it is not written in our law (of course NOT), I know from good sources that this procedure is still rather common.

And yes, you can kill two women for the price of one man. Also in Antwerp.

• When they marry, men are asked to be nice for their women. Women will be asked to obey their men.

Well? Change wiki!

• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men. In some countries and under certain conditions women can try to convince a male judge to grant a divorce.

They have in Belgium and in entire Europe both the right to start a divorce procedure. But in reality Muslim women are afraid of starting one.

• When women have their menstruation they are considered to be unclean and they are advised to stay away from the mosque.

Maybe you consider this as normal, but I don't. It's sick.

• In these mosques, the best ‘seats’ are for the men. They can sit in front, women sit always behind them or are just separated from the men.

Well and what if women would ask to replace the 'seats'. A war would start.

• The last 200 years there is not one single female jurist in any Muslim country.

I am not aware of any female Muslim jurist in Antwerp. It's possible that they exist. Normally about 5% of the jurists should be female AND Muslim. I'm pretty sure it's not even close reaching the .5% If it would reach 5%, they would be visible.

And still you think it's normal that there are no female jurists the last 200 years in the Arab world? I think it is sick.


All these things can be derived easily from wiki.

Btw, while my own impression is not empiric, it is counting as well.

On New Years Eve, the bars, dancings and cafes around the Great Market are loaded with Muslims (oh yes, they attend bars, they even drink alcohol). ALL are male, not one is female. One starts wondering if the majority of Muslim men are homosexual. Their wives are not visible at night!

One day, I was drinking something with a Muslim girl (wearing a veil) in a karaoke bar. Suddenly some Muslim boys entered the joint. They were looking ugly to her and said some disgusting things in Arab to her.

She has to leave the bar. She was afraid of being beaten up.
Oh yes, she didn't know those guys...

You think this is normal? I don’t. And no, this was not an exceptional event.

One day, I was smoking in front of our office with her. Suddenly some Muslim guys in a car passed by and started to shout at her. Things like “whore!”

I was in shock. I asked her why.

She stayed calm and said “Oh well, I’m wearing a veil, so I am supposed to be religious and that’s including that I shouldn’t talk with you a male non-Muslim and also...I’m smoking cigarettes…”

Is this normal? I don’t think so.

I know about dozen Muslim girls who see it different and want to do different things as their male community is ruling out for them. And believe me, they can’t. They have no choice.

Conclusion: The Islam is a female unfriendly environment. The best we can do is forbid the whole thing in our country.
If a club would have such rules, it would be closed by law.

On New Years Eve, the bars, dancings and cafes around the Great Market are loaded with Muslims (oh yes, they attend bars, they even drink alcohol). ALL are male, not one is female.

One day, I was drinking something with a Muslim girl (wearing a veil) in a karaoke bar. Suddenly some Muslim boys entered the joint. They were looking ugly to her and said some disgusting things in Arab to her.

She has to leave the bar. She was afraid of being beaten up.
Oh yes, she didn't know those guys...

You think this is normal? I don’t. And no, this was not an exceptional event.

Yes, because women in bars never get accosted by groups of ugly and insulting, most likely drunk men in the West. Unless they're teh muslimz, of course...

[...]Conclusion: The Islam is a female unfriendly environment. The best we can do is forbid the whole thing in our country. If a club would have such rules, it would be closed by law.

Emphasis added... You really think you help Muslim women by forbidding their religion?! I think they would be oh so grateful for the “freedom” you provide.

Yes, because women in bars never get accosted by groups of ugly and insulting, most likely drunk men in the West. Unless they're teh muslimz, of course...

Those guys were not drunk. At least not by alcohol. Maybe drunk by their fanatic religion.

Emphasis added... You really think you help Muslim women by forbidding their religion?! I think they would be oh so grateful for the “freedom” you provide.

Yes, that's right. If a religion is bouncing with our laws, then the religion have to go aside. And if it is bouncing that hard, it should be forbidden.

If you tomorrow want to start-up a child-fuck club in my country, then you will find me on your way.

And if you can't stand it...
Then search a country where you can practice your religion.

Yes, that's right. If a religion is bouncing with our laws, then the religion have to go aside. And if it is bouncing that hard, it should be forbidden.

If you tomorrow want to start-up a child-fuck club in my country, then you will find me on your way.

And if you can't stand it...
Then search a country where you can practice your religion.

Oh I should simply leave shouldn't I...

Freedom is important and so is freedom of religion everybody should know that...

But my dear misguided friend I am neither Muslim nor Belgian... And the last time I checked Belgium was not a police state..

You still haven't shown were to find your suggestive statements in the article btw... why? because the article is nuanced and your statements are polemic

You still haven't shown were to find your suggestive statements in the article btw... why? because the article is nuanced and your statements are polemic

As you might have seen from countless posts in this forum, Polemics and Personal Anecdotes are acceptable as fact when it comes to hopping on the bandwagon called "Islam is Evil."

Oh I should simply leave shouldn't I...

Freedom is important and so is freedom of religion everybody should know that...

But my dear misguided friend I am neither Muslim nor Belgian... And the last time I checked Belgium was not a police state..


No, you are reordering my words.

But because it seems you are not the smartest kid on the block, I'll repeat:

If your religion, any religion, is fighting too much with the laws of my country, in such a way that it is dangerous, discriminating or just unlawful, then your religion should change or you should leave and search for another country were you can practice your dangerous, discriminating or just unlawful religion.

So, no, you don't have to leave. You have a choice.

No, it's not a police state. But we have laws on sects. Just like any Western country.

• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra.

Sure, some Muslim women dare to wear none. But, most have to do it. And oh yeah, they all say 'I do it, cause I want to'. Until the day they drop it... *mep-mep*

• In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man.

Testimonials are more than testimonials in courtroom. The word of the man is always more worth than the word of the woman.

• It’s common in Islam countries that killers pay a fine (=diyyat) to the victims their relatives or family. But killing a woman is cheaper: half the price of the man! This is actually written in the law codex of several Muslim countries.

While it is not written in our law (of course NOT), I know from good sources that this procedure is still rather common.

And yes, you can kill two women for the price of one man. Also in Antwerp.

• When they marry, men are asked to be nice for their women. Women will be asked to obey their men.

Well? Change wiki!

• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men. In some countries and under certain conditions women can try to convince a male judge to grant a divorce.

They have in Belgium and in entire Europe both the right to start a divorce procedure. But in reality Muslim women are afraid of starting one.

• When women have their menstruation they are considered to be unclean and they are advised to stay away from the mosque.

Maybe you consider this as normal, but I don't. It's sick.

• In these mosques, the best ‘seats’ are for the men. They can sit in front, women sit always behind them or are just separated from the men.

Well and what if women would ask to replace the 'seats'. A war would start.

• The last 200 years there is not one single female jurist in any Muslim country.

I am not aware of any female Muslim jurist in Antwerp. It's possible that they exist. Normally about 5% of the jurists should be female AND Muslim. I'm pretty sure it's not even close reaching the .5% If it would reach 5%, they would be visible.

And still you think it's normal that there are no female jurists the last 200 years in the Arab world? I think it is sick.


All these things can be derived easily from wiki.

Btw, while my own impression is not empiric, it is counting as well.

On New Years Eve, the bars, dancings and cafes around the Great Market are loaded with Muslims (oh yes, they attend bars, they even drink alcohol). ALL are male, not one is female. One starts wondering if the majority of Muslim men are homosexual. Their wives are not visible at night!

One day, I was drinking something with a Muslim girl (wearing a veil) in a karaoke bar. Suddenly some Muslim boys entered the joint. They were looking ugly to her and said some disgusting things in Arab to her.

She has to leave the bar. She was afraid of being beaten up.
Oh yes, she didn't know those guys...

You think this is normal? I don’t. And no, this was not an exceptional event.

One day, I was smoking in front of our office with her. Suddenly some Muslim guys in a car passed by and started to shout at her. Things like “whore!”

I was in shock. I asked her why.

She stayed calm and said “Oh well, I’m wearing a veil, so I am supposed to be religious and that’s including that I shouldn’t talk with you a male non-Muslim and also...I’m smoking cigarettes…”

Is this normal? I don’t think so.

I know about dozen Muslim girls who see it different and want to do different things as their male community is ruling out for them. And believe me, they can’t. They have no choice.

Conclusion: The Islam is a female unfriendly environment. The best we can do is forbid the whole thing in our country.
If a club would have such rules, it would be closed by law.

Ayaan Ali Hirsi just called. She said you stole her gimmick and wants it back.

You still haven't shown were to find your suggestive statements in the article btw... why? because the article is nuanced and your statements are polemic

You cant' read. I'm not using sugestive words.

And I feel safe, wiki is using similar words.

Ayaan Ali Hirsi just called. She said you stole her gimmick and wants it back.

Well, that girl reached more in a few years than you will reach in your entire life (including your children and your children their children).

I don't agree on everything what she is saying, but she deserves some huge respect.

And oh btw, she is still a Muslim woman. No?

And oh btw, she is still a Muslim woman. No?

No, she is a self-proclaimed atheist.

What wiki is learning us:

The status of women's testimony in Islam is disputed. Some jurists have held that certain types testimony by women will not be accepted.[26]. In other cases, the testimony of two women can equal that of one man.[26][27][28] The reason for this disparity has been explained in various manners, including women's lack of intelligence,[29] women's temperament and sphere of interest,[30] and sparing women from the burden of testifying.[31] In other areas, women's testimony may be accepted on an equal basis with men's.[26][32]

Commentators on the status of women in Islam have often focused on disparities in diyyat, the fines paid by killers to victims' next of kin after either intentional or unintentional homicide,[33] between men and women. Diyya has existed in Arabia since pre-Islamic times.[34][35] While the practice of diyya was affirmed by Muhammed,[36] Islam does not prescribe any specific amount for diyyat nor does it require discrimination between men and women;[33] the Qur'an has left open its quantity, nature, and other related affairs to be defined by social custom and tradition.[33] Traditionally, however, diyya for a women is half that of a man;[37][38] this is currently codified in the laws of Muslim-majority countries such as Saudi Arabia,[39] Iran,[40] and Pakistan.[41]

Islamic criminal jurisprudence does not discriminate between genders in punishments for crimes.[citation needed] In case of sexual crimes such as zina (fornication), however, women may be found guilty more easily than men, because of the visible evidence of pregnancy; without a pregancy, four witnesses are required to file a zina case.[42]

The difficulty of prosecuting rapists and the possibility of prosecution for women who allege rape has been of special interest to activists for Muslim women's rights.[43] The overwhelming majority of Muslim scholars believe that there is no punishment for a woman coerced into having sex.[44] According to a Sunni hadith, the punishment for committing rape is death, there is no sin on the victim, nor is there any worldly punishment ascribed to her.[45] However, the stringent requirements for proof of rape under some interpretations of Islamic law, combined with cultural attitudes regarding rape in some parts of the Muslim world, result in few rape cases being reported; even the cases brought forward typically result in minimal punishment for offenders or severe punishment for victims.[46] It can be difficult to seek punishment against rapists, because a zina case cannot be brought without four witnesses, even for rape cases. Some scholars, however, treat rape instead as hiraba (disorder in the land),[47], which does not require four witnesses. The form of punishment and interpretation of Islamic law in this case is highly dependent on the legislation of the nation in question, and/or of the judge.

...Polygamy is permitted under restricted conditions,[62] but it is not widespread.[2] Women are not allowed to engage in polyandry, whereas men are allowed to engage in polygyny.[62]...

...Husbands are asked to be kind to their wives and wives are asked to be obedient to their husbands.[65] The Qur'an also encourages discussion and mutual agreement regarding family decisions.[17][66]...

...For both Shi'a and Sunni Muslims, the right to demand a divorce is primarily for men. Unless otherwise specified in the marriage contract, women can only seek divorce through court proceedings by convincing a qadi to grant a divorce...

...Separation between sexes ranges from men and women on opposite sides of an aisle, to men in front of women (as was the case in the time of Muhammad), to women in second-floor balconies or separate rooms accessible by a door for women only.[92] There is a growing movement of women who complain of second-class conditions in separate female sections of mosques...

...Until recently most Muslim nations were non-democratic, but most today allow their citizens to have some level of voting and control over their government. Aside from Brunei (where neither men nor women can vote)[110] and Saudi Arabia (where only men can vote),[111] all such nations allow women to vote. (Lebanon requires proof of education for women to vote.[112])...

...In Islam's earlier history, female religious scholars were relatively common. Mohammad Akram Nadwi, a Sunni religious scholar, has compiled biographies of 8,000 female jurists, and orientalist Ignaz Goldziher earlier estimated that 15 percent of medieval hadith scholars were women.[97] After the 1500s, however, female scholars became fewer,[97] and today—while female activists and writers are relatively common—there has not been a significant female jurist in over 200 years.[98] Opportunities for women's religious education exist, but cultural barriers often keep women from pursuing such a vocation.[97]...


CHANGE WIKI! :headbang:

No, you are reordering my words.

But because it seems you are not the smartest kid on the block, I'll repeat:

If your religion, any religion, is fighting too much with the laws of my country, in such a way that it is dangerous, discriminating or just unlawful, then your religion should change or you should leave and search for another country were you can practice your dangerous, discriminating or just unlawful religion.

So, no, you don't have to leave. You have a choice.

No, it's not a police state. But we have laws on sects. Just like any Western country.

:D

The last time I checked, the religion does not conflict with the laws of your country. Muslims and Islam have a place in western society. Your views are more in conflict with western liberal values than Islam is.

No, she is a self-proclaimed atheist.

No she's back a Muslim.

It seems that it depends of the wine in front of her nose. :)

:D

The last time I checked, the religion does not conflict with the laws of your country. Muslims and Islam have a place in western society. Your views are more in conflict with western liberal values than Islam is.


It surely fights with the laws of my country.

According Belgian law, you can't kill 2 women for the price of 1 men.

Wow, your view of Islam is quite minimal.

There are many traditions that are supposedly in Islam, that actually have little religious justification, but are cultural traditions of Arab, Persian and other societies.

I have had many experiances in Arab and Muslim society in-general. I am a student of the Bektasi Order, a Sufiyah order which is very prominant in Turkey, Albania, Bosnia, Macedonia, Kosovo and also is in Egypt and Iraq. I have been taught little of the things you speak of.

• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra.

Not true, only some Muslim countries force women to wear a veil, namely the ones coming off of Wahabbi or Safavid traditions. Shaikh Hasan al-Turabi of Sudan has preached against the Veil, calling it a tradition of Pagan Arab society, and he indeed has a point. The conditions of modesty, according to the Holy Qur'an, do not mention the need for a veil of the kind worn today. That indeed, was a Pre-Islamic Tradition. The modesty bits are not uncommon. Most societies today have laws which encourage people to cover their private parts.

• In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man.

I disagree, many of my relatives lived in Iraq until the current War, they had a form of Islamic law and Women's testimony was equal to that of a mans.

I recall a Qur'anic verse which states all believers, man or woman are equal before the eyes of Allah.

• It’s common in Islam countries that killers pay a fine (=diyyat) to the victims their relatives or family. But killing a woman is cheaper: half the price of the man! This is actually written in the law codex of several Muslim countries.

Yes, that is a common practice in mainly Pashtun countries and some Arab countries, but it has nothing to do with Islam. That is tribal custom, not religious.

• When they marry, men are asked to be nice for their women. Women will be asked to obey their men.

You're sort of correct, the parents are equal in the relationship and are supposed to work for the betterment of the family in-general.

• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men. In some countries and under certain conditions women can try to convince a male judge to grant a divorce.

Wrong, the Qur'an states that divorce can be called by a man or a woman, if individual judges try and go against the Holy Qur'an, it is not the fault of Islam, but of reactionary judges.

• When women have their menstruation they are considered to be unclean and they are advised to stay away from the mosque.

Actually, the primary code of conduct is to only discourage menstruating women from intercourse.

• In these mosques, the best ‘seats’ are for the men. They can sit in front, women sit always behind them or are just separated from the men.

The aspects of seperating men and women in Masjid are not entirely Islamically based, they are based on the concept of not distracting the believer, but have been taken radically off by the Wahabbi and Safavid tendancies. Just to note, many Sufiyah orders do not believe in going to Masjid, they prefer to practice in their own home along with others of the Order.

• The last 200 years there is not one single female jurist in any Muslim country.

Yes, because clearly the West has a 50-50 ratio of male to female jurists. I actually would say that several Muslim countries have had female jurists, Albania and Bosnia I am pretty sure have.

I would note that in Iraq, until just recently, Women had a very high status in society, equal to that of a man, and were encouraged to have a college education. Iraq of course, did have the highest literacy rate in the region, for both sexes until just recently.

Also, I would note that Islam is not a single, unified entity, it is split into sects. You focus on the Wahabbi and Safavid tendancies and their off-shoots, and they tend to focus incredibly on Hadiths for their rulings, many of these Hadith are contradicting and forged. I would note that these tendancies make up a minority of the Islamic world.

The Role of Women in the world of Islam.

Like it or not, but for Muslims, women are second class people.

• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra.
• Women can’t drive a car (in some countries), men can.
• In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man.
• It’s common in Islam countries that killers pay a fine (=diyyat) to the victims their relatives or family. But killing a woman is cheaper: half the price of the man! This is actually written in the law codex of several Muslim countries.
• In some Islam countries men are allowed to practise polygamy. They can have several women. But women can’t have several men.
• When they marry, men are asked to be nice for their women. Women will be asked to obey their men.
• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men. In some countries and under certain conditions women can try to convince a male judge to grant a divorce.
• When women have their menstruation they are considered to be unclean and they are advised to stay away from the mosque.
• In these mosques, the best ‘seats’ are for the men. They can sit in front, women sit always behind them or are just separated from the men.
• The last 200 years there is not one single female jurist in any Muslim country.
• In most Muslim countries both sexes can vote. In Saudi Arabia women can’t at all and in Lebanon only women have to proof they are educated before they can vote.

And when they come to Europe or USA, sure they have to obey our rules, but in reality most don’t.

Women are sometimes ill informed about their rights here. And even if they do know their rights, most of them will not use them because their social and family life would be terminated.

I consider the Islam as one of the most female unfriendly religions around.


I'll bet they really hate it when a female american soldier shoots there men in battle .... lol.

Did you even read your wiki-source? It makes specific measure to note that the majority of the cases you describe are geocultural and ARE NOT INTRINSIC TO ISLAM ITSELF. o.O

Look, you obviously want to find fault in the religious system rather than seeking the true causes of the symptoms you are so up in arms about, so this obviously doesn't matter. But you should probably put a disclaimer that you are going to woefully misrepresent not only the facts, but also the sources you claim support your thesis. You know, it's just so no one is caught off guard.

Did you even read your wiki-source? It makes specific measure to note that the majority of the cases you describe are geocultural and ARE NOT INTRINSIC TO ISLAM ITSELF. o.O

Look, you obviously want to find fault in the religious system rather than seeking the true causes of the symptoms you are so up in arms about, so this obviously doesn't matter. But you should probably put a disclaimer that you are going to woefully misrepresent not only the facts, but also the sources you claim support your thesis. You know, it's just so no one is caught off guard.


That's why I used often the word 'some' in my initial text.

That's why I used often the word 'some' in my initial text.

Wait, wait. That's relevant to what, exactly, in the above post?

*sigh* let us take a look then....

What wiki is learning us:

The status of women's testimony in Islam is disputed. Some jurists have held that certain types testimony by women will not be accepted.[26]. In other cases, the testimony of two women can equal that of one man.[26][27][28] The reason for this disparity has been explained in various manners, including women's lack of intelligence,[29] women's temperament and sphere of interest,[30] and sparing women from the burden of testifying.[31] In other areas, women's testimony may be accepted on an equal basis with men's.[26][32]

Commentators on the status of women in Islam have often focused on disparities in diyyat, the fines paid by killers to victims' next of kin after either intentional or unintentional homicide,[33] between men and women. Diyya has existed in Arabia since pre-Islamic times.[34][35] While the practice of diyya was affirmed by Muhammed,[36] Islam does not prescribe any specific amount for diyyat nor does it require discrimination between men and women;[33] the Qur'an has left open its quantity, nature, and other related affairs to be defined by social custom and tradition.[33] Traditionally, however, diyya for a women is half that of a man;[37][38] this is currently codified in the laws of Muslim-majority countries such as Saudi Arabia,[39] Iran,[40] and Pakistan.[41]

Islamic criminal jurisprudence does not discriminate between genders in punishments for crimes.[citation needed] In case of sexual crimes such as zina (fornication), however, women may be found guilty more easily than men, because of the visible evidence of pregnancy; without a pregancy, four witnesses are required to file a zina case.[42]

I would like to add that in Islamic law an effort is made to protect people from harsh punishment. For example, the fetus can go into stasis. This protects women that become pregnant while being separated for a long time from their husbands and the child. The Hadj to Mekka used to take many years. Also Islam accepts that virgins could have children based on Mary and Jesus (Mirjam and Isa)

The difficulty of prosecuting rapists and the possibility of prosecution for women who allege rape has been of special interest to activists for Muslim women's rights.[43] The overwhelming majority of Muslim scholars believe that there is no punishment for a woman coerced into having sex.[44] According to a Sunni hadith, the punishment for committing rape is death, there is no sin on the victim, nor is there any worldly punishment ascribed to her.[45] However, the stringent requirements for proof of rape under some interpretations of Islamic law, combined with cultural attitudes regarding rape in some parts of the Muslim world, result in few rape cases being reported; even the cases brought forward typically result in minimal punishment for offenders or severe punishment for victims.[46] It can be difficult to seek punishment against rapists, because a zina case cannot be brought without four witnesses, even for rape cases.

I agree that this can be problematic because in Islam the suspect is presumed innocent untill proven guilty and therefore well-protected. Rape has always been a difficult case to make (also in our society). However this problem is in some places being dealt with:

Some scholars, however, treat rape instead as hiraba (disorder in the land),[47], which does not require four witnesses. The form of punishment and interpretation of Islamic law in this case is highly dependent on the legislation of the nation in question, and/or of the judge.

...Polygamy is permitted under restricted conditions,[62] but it is not widespread.[2] Women are not allowed to engage in polyandry, whereas men are allowed to engage in polygyny.[62].... But men have stringent duties to their wives. I still feel sorry for the few poor sods that try...
...Husbands are asked to be kind to their wives and wives are asked to be obedient to their husbands.[65] The Qur'an also encourages discussion and mutual agreement regarding family decisions.[17][66]...

...For both Shi'a and Sunni Muslims, the right to demand a divorce is primarily for men. Unless otherwise specified in the marriage contract, women can only seek divorce through court proceedings by convincing a qadi to grant a divorce...
I see room for solving this problem here. In western society people that desire divorce generally contact a judge. This is no different in the Middle East though the man can divorce his wife by simply uttering his desire a few times… However in this case the man must often pay a large sum of reparations to the wife. You see it is more nuanced than your statements.

...Separation between sexes ranges from men and women on opposite sides of an aisle, to men in front of women (as was the case in the time of Muhammad), to women in second-floor balconies or separate rooms accessible by a door for women only.[92] There is a growing movement of women who complain of second-class conditions in separate female sections of mosques... Women attending to mosques were not all that common until recently. The women that complain may well succeed to improve their conditions. I would not expect the segregation of sexes in the mosque to disappear because it is part of the ritual purity.
...Until recently most Muslim nations were non-democratic, but most today allow their citizens to have some level of voting and control over their government. Aside from Brunei (where neither men nor women can vote)[110] and Saudi Arabia (where only men can vote),[111] all such nations allow women to vote. (Lebanon requires proof of education for women to vote.[112])...

...In Islam's earlier history, female religious scholars were relatively common. Mohammad Akram Nadwi, a Sunni religious scholar, has compiled biographies of 8,000 female jurists, and orientalist Ignaz Goldziher earlier estimated that 15 percent of medieval hadith scholars were women.[97] After the 1500s, however, female scholars became fewer,[97] and today—while female activists and writers are relatively common—there has not been a significant female jurist in over 200 years.[98] Opportunities for women's religious education exist, but cultural barriers often keep women from pursuing such a vocation.[97]...


CHANGE WIKI! :headbang:

That's why I used often the word 'some' in my initial text.

Your text in its intro and conclusion is highly polemic... using some does not change the suggestive tone of your text... Just because you use some does not mean you are not selective in your examples...

Wow, your view of Islam is quite minimal....

• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra.

Not true, only some Muslim countries force women to wear a veil, namely the ones coming off of Wahabbi or Safavid traditions. Shaikh Hasan al-Turabi of Sudan has preached against the Veil, calling it a tradition of Pagan Arab society, and he indeed has a point. The conditions of modesty, according to the Holy Qur'an, do not mention the need for a veil of the kind worn today. That indeed, was a Pre-Islamic Tradition. The modesty bits are not uncommon. Most societies today have laws which encourage people to cover their private parts.

In some countries it is just the law. They have to do it. In some countries or communities they could have a choice in theory but in reality...

Like I said before, an Antwerp Muslim girl, veiled since her 16 or something, suddenly drops her veil will face a pretty hard time...

You know very well what would happen with that girl.

My point stands valid. We both know, that she is not having a real choice.


• In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man.

I disagree, many of my relatives lived in Iraq until the current War, they had a form of Islamic law and Women's testimony was equal to that of a mans.

I recall a Qur'anic verse which states all believers, man or woman are equal before the eyes of Allah.

Iraq was a very liberal land, sure to Moslim standards.

And you know very well that in the majority of Muslim countries my point is valid.


• It’s common in Islam countries that killers pay a fine (=diyyat) to the victims their relatives or family. But killing a woman is cheaper: half the price of the man! This is actually written in the law codex of several Muslim countries.

Yes, that is a common practice in mainly Pashtun countries and some Arab countries, but it has nothing to do with Islam. That is tribal custom, not religious.

The world of Islam is not only the Islam itself.

• When they marry, men are asked to be nice for their women. Women will be asked to obey their men.

You're sort of correct, the parents are equal in the relationship and are supposed to work for the betterment of the family in-general.

I assume they say more as well too. But the above procedure is very standard. Sorry, it is fighting with my views.

Any man should always be nice for his wife. And vice versa. It's just normal.
No woman should obey their man or vice versa.

They should talk and listen to each other on an equal position.


• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men. In some countries and under certain conditions women can try to convince a male judge to grant a divorce.

Wrong, the Qur'an states that divorce can be called by a man or a woman, if individual judges try and go against the Holy Qur'an, it is not the fault of Islam, but of reactionary judges.

Doesn't matter. It's common practise in most Islam countries. Else change wiki.

• When women have their menstruation they are considered to be unclean and they are advised to stay away from the mosque.

Actually, the primary code of conduct is to only discourage menstruating women from intercourse.

What did I wrote? Look at the word 'advised'...


• In these mosques, the best ‘seats’ are for the men. They can sit in front, women sit always behind them or are just separated from the men.

The aspects of seperating men and women in Masjid are not entirely Islamically based, they are based on the concept of not distracting the believer, but have been taken radically off by the Wahabbi and Safavid tendancies. Just to note, many Sufiyah orders do not believe in going to Masjid, they prefer to practice in their own home along with others of the Order.

Doesn't matter, the best 'seats' are still for men. Many Muslim women are starting to complain about this issue....


• The last 200 years there is not one single female jurist in any Muslim country.

Yes, because clearly the West has a 50-50 ratio of male to female jurists. I actually would say that several Muslim countries have had female jurists, Albania and Bosnia I am pretty sure have.

Change wiki.


I would note that in Iraq, until just recently, Women had a very high status in society, equal to that of a man, and were encouraged to have a college education. Iraq of course, did have the highest literacy rate in the region, for both sexes until just recently.

I know.

Also, I would note that Islam is not a single, unified entity, it is split into sects. You focus on the Wahabbi and Safavid tendancies and their off-shoots, and they tend to focus incredibly on Hadiths for their rulings, many of these Hadith are contradicting and forged. I would note that these tendancies make up a minority of the Islamic world.

I know I am not like the average Hillbillie Joe that is treating all Muslims like a kind of terrorists.

I'll bet they really hate it when a female american soldier shoots there men in battle .... lol.

As was told to me by a translator in 2004 (I am going to use quotes, but this is not verbatim, this was 3 years ago, and I was not taking notes--his english was not this clear either)

Translator "yes, they did target your women first"

Me "Why, if you thought they were less able than a man, would they not think I would be more deadly and more of a threat?"

Translator Laughes a good laugh "yes, yes they did find that out. Your women are not deadly..." (saying they couldn't shoot, they were posing or something to that effect, and told me that the reason they had targeted them was anger at women shooting at them)

Don't flip out at me feminests, his words not mine, I think women are more deadly. Some of you crazy bitches take vengence seriously ;-)

Your text in its intro and conclusion is highly polemic... using some does not change the suggestive tone of your text... Just because you use some does not mean you are not selective in your examples...

I do not have to patronize the community here. I think that most (but not all) have enough intelligence to understand the purpose of the word ‘some’.

I don’t think I wrote lots of mistakes, if any. (beside tons of grammatical and spelling errors - I have to fill in a patent for my writing style)

I do not have to patronize the community here. I think that most (but not all) have enough intelligence to understand the purpose of the word ‘some’.

I don’t think I wrote lots of mistakes, if any.

Well you look at your own words and at the wiki article... Your words remain selective, polemic and suggestive.. Your mistakes are mainly in your selection of "facts" and your analysis... you use "some" and then you generalize to attack Islam...

Look at the commentary I presented with your wiki article... you will see that the problem you suggest to exist does not...

In some countries it is just the law. They have to do it. In some countries or communities they could have a choice in theory but in reality...

Like I said before, an Antwerp Muslim girl, veiled since her 16 or something, suddenly drops her veil will face a pretty hard time...

You know very well what would happen with that girl.

My point stands valid. We both know, that she is not having a real choice.

Sure she has, she may disapoint her family. And they will try to convince her to wear the hejab. However, Muslims are just like ordinary people they wil be sad but not stop loving her...

"• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men"

While I say things I learned from translators:

Women can automatically get a divorce if they tell the court/judge/whoever they present to, that their man is not fufiling their sexual needs. (I do not know if he was refering to only not being able to get it up, I think he was saying in general though) If a husband is not fufilling his "end of the deal" a women gets a quick divorce. However, most would never dare to say this even if it was the case out of fear of retribution. Apparently (this is how I understood, not sure if this part is true) since her statement is unverifiable as no one else is there, he can kill her and claim she was slandering him, pay the family and serve no other sentence.

Well you look at your own words and at the wiki article... Your words remain selective, polemic and suggestive.. Your mistakes are mainly in your selection of "facts" and your analysis... you use "some" and then you generalize to attack Islam...

Look at the commentary I presented with your wiki article... you will see that the problem you suggest to exist does not...


No, I didn't.

In general, homosexuals are just sluts.
Countless surveys will underline this.

But non-slutty homosexuals will feel this as an attack on their being.

Smart homosexuals remark the word 'in general' and know that it isn't the same as 'all'.

So are you a smart homosexual or just a homosexual? ;)

Sure she has, she may disapoint her family. And they will try to convince her to wear the hejab. However, Muslims are just like ordinary people they wil be sad but not stop loving her...

Convincing...like in:

"Talk to the hand ’cause the face ain’t listening anymore" ?

No, I didn't.

In general, homosexuals are just sluts.
Countless surveys will underline this.

But non-slutty homosexuals will feel this as an attack on their being.

Smart homosexuals remark the word 'in general' and know that it isn't the same as 'all'.

So are you a smart homosexual or just a homosexual? ;)

Well, if you are implying that homosexuals are sluts because of their sexual orientation rather than some other cultural cause, then, yes, it is an attack on homosexuals. The same way that you are equivocating geocultural traditions with religious traditions, even though they are two distinct creatures and such has been shown time and again. You are saying Islam should be banned from Belgium, rather than, you know, the offensive practices that have nothing to do with Islam itself but rather with some of the regional cultures in which Islam happens to be practiced.

Seriously, this isn't a hard concept to grasp but you've done nothing in this thread to show that you comprehend it. Your argument follows the line of me saying, "Hmm...I met this Belgian dude who is an illogical dick...Belgium should be banned from...the world."

No, I didn't.

In general, homosexuals are just sluts.
Countless surveys will underline this.

But non-slutty homosexuals will feel this as an attack on their being.

Smart homosexuals remark the word 'in general' and know that it isn't the same as 'all'.

So are you a smart homosexual or just a homosexual? ;)

I am speaking for the majority of NS when I say 'Oh dear.', yes?

Oh dear oh dear, what a mess you've made... Seriously. It seems to me that all your knowledge of Islam comes from wikipedia, and that you take what's written there as gospel. That is your first mistake.

Secondly, you generalize too much. Thirdly, you fail to differentiate between the issues originating from Islam as a religion and the issues originating from the different cultural aspects of "the world of Islam". As such, your analysis is pretty much worthless. However, let's take a closer look regardless.

I won't go through everything as others have eviscerated your post, but I will make some comments.

The Role of Women in the world of Islam.

Like it or not, but for Muslims, women are second class people.
See, here you don't say "some muslims". Here, you say that this is a universal truth about all muslims. So I challenge you to prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that all muslims, even women, even in America, even Benazir Bhutto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto), Megawati Sukarnoputri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megawati_Sukarnoputri), or Fadela Amara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fadela_Amara), see women as second class people. Go ahead.

• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra.
Cultural. They don't have to everywhere. But then again, we can safely ignore Indonesia and Turkey, can't we? They probably don't count as part of the muslim world? :rolleyes:

• Women can’t drive a car (in some countries), men can.
Indeed. This, however, does not illustrate the norm in the "muslim world". Rather, it's the exception as put forward by a few totalitarian states.

• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men. In some countries and under certain conditions women can try to convince a male judge to grant a divorce.
You're neither accurate nor correct.

• The last 200 years there is not one single female jurist in any Muslim country.
ORLY?

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u275/Gravlen/NSG/1atest.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirin_Ebadi)

And when they come to Europe or USA, sure they have to obey our rules, but in reality most don’t.
0.o

Most muslim women go on crime sprees when they get to Europe and the US? I'd like for you to back up this seemingly ludicrous claim.

Women are sometimes ill informed about their rights here. And even if they do know their rights, most of them will not use them because their social and family life would be terminated.
Another point you need to back up, as in my experience this is untrue.

I consider the Islam as one of the most female unfriendly religions around.
That's your prerogative, but your reasoning is extremely flawed.

In Jemen an 'old' (>16) girl that is not married is a 'whore' and cause that she'll never marry.
Oooh, look, an unsupported statement!

I.e: Back this up, please, or let us call it bullshit.

Sure, some Muslim women dare to wear none. But, most have to do it. And oh yeah, they all say 'I do it, cause I want to'. Until the day they drop it... *mep-mep*
Actually, a lot of women dare to. Millions of muslim women dare to.

Well? Change wiki!
Say it with me: Wikipedia is not the aboslute truth.
They have in Belgium and in entire Europe both the right to start a divorce procedure. But in reality Muslim women are afraid of starting one.
Prove it, don't just throw statements out there. 'cause, frankly, I don't believe a word of this.
And still you think it's normal that there are no female jurists the last 200 years in the Arab world? I think it is sick.
The arab world, or the muslim world? Make up your mind!


Btw, while my own impression is not empiric, it is counting as well.
Not really, no.
Conclusion: The Islam is a female unfriendly environment.
That's why I used often the word 'some' in my initial text.
Indeed. So your conclusion and logic is flawed. You go from 'some' to 'all', and your generalisations don't hold up under scrutiny. Sure, there are many MANY things to criticise Islam, the muslim world, and the arab world for concerning the treatment and views of women. You, however, goes on the attack randomly and incoherently, which results in a rant that is easily dismissed. Next time, try focusing your arguments and avoid generalizations and logical fallacies.

The best we can do is forbid the whole thing in our country.
If a club would have such rules, it would be closed by law.
No fan of freedom of religion, eh? Why don't you rather try to change the bad parts of the culture and the religion instead of alienating the people adhering to that particular faith? Do you think the muslim women you know would be happy if Islam was outlawed?

If your religion, any religion, is fighting too much with the laws of my country, in such a way that it is dangerous, discriminating or just unlawful, then your religion should change or you should leave and search for another country were you can practice your dangerous, discriminating or just unlawful religion.
I agree to a degree, but you take it too far and your reasoning is, as I've said, fatally flawed. Judging by your statement you would outlaw, say, Christianity as well, as it can be seen as discriminating towards women and homosexuals...


I've never seen anyone on NS spend that much time defending Christianity.

...

I've never seen anyone on NS defend Christianity.
Then you have never, ever, been in a thread attacking Christianity. Really. Smunk does a good job at it, and others too.
If you ever say anything about tolerant Christianity you get a whole load of links about Phelps and crew, and about TV evangelists, and the sort.....however when you have countries where the religious have passed laws that say that people are to be put to death because of their sexual orientation, you get a big "nu-uh, that's not all of Islam, you are being mean, why do you hurt these people for no reason?"

it's true.
So basically, what you're saying is, that if you post something on NSG someone will disagree with you? ;)

Yes. Try saying water is wet, and you'll get people disagreeing with you! :p

Oh dear oh dear, what a mess you've made... Seriously. It seems to me that all your knowledge of Islam comes from wikipedia, and that you take what's written there as gospel. That is your first mistake...


Oh dear, oh dear the father-knows-it-best-guy entered the scene.

So for every word I produce, I have to back it up with how many sources? 5 ?

No, I’m not generalizing. Not even close.
If I wrote somewhere ‘some’, then some people seem to be temporally blind. They don’t see the ‘some’

No wiki isn’t always right, but it is a damn good trustable source. Much more reliable that what you see here.

I was waiting till someone would find a female Muslim jurist. As a matter of fact, I found one by myself. It took me some time.
The message is: they are very very very rare. And that’s not normal. But hey by finding in triumph one female, now the whole problem is solved now. I think that the Muslim society is pretty sick that the last 200 years almost no single female could be a jurist. This issue alone is strong enough to have a carefull view on Islam.

The only thing you do is writing:
“fault”, “untrue”, “unlogic” most of the time accompanied with no explanation, what is fault and/or what your idea is. That’s easier of course.

Give me break, what do you want? That I would say “The Islam is a female friendly environment”?

Well read some books and papers of women that have the experience from INSIDE…

And for me this subject is closed. I don’t mind that people have radical other ideas and impressions about everything. From those people, I can learn the most, not from my peers.

But debating and debating is two. By just serving ‘fault’, ‘error’, ‘not accurate’ you’re not having a debate.
At least, tell what's wrong and why. Add your own opinion. And if I have to add sources. Where's yours? I don't see a single source...

If fact in this whole thread, the only source came from me, no?

If wiki is wrong, then correct it...

I guess I have to talk to the hand now, ‘cause the face will not listen anymore…

I was waiting till someone would find a female Muslim jurist. As a matter of fact, I found one by myself. It took me some time.
The message is: they are very very very rare. And that’s not normal. But hey by finding in triumph one female, now the whole problem is solved now. I think that the Muslim society is pretty sick that the last 200 years almost no single female could be a jurist. This issue alone is strong enough to have a carefull view on Islam.


People are criticizing your argument because claiming blaming Islam for the issues you raise does not logically follow from anything you've posted. And, furthermore, your continued reluctance to address this makes you seem like a troll in the eyes of most, regardless of intention.

I quoted that part of your post because the source you continue to cite, wikipedia, even discredit attributing that to Islam instead of Arab and Persian cultures (and only certain areas, at that). Hell, it talks about how until the 16th century, women seem to have been very involved in the judicial system which actually counters what you are claiming. So no, that issue alone is not strong enough to alter anyone's view on Islam.

You accuse those of us in disagreement as being intellectually dishonest and stubborn but I really think you're pointing that finger in the wrong direction.

Oh dear, oh dear the father-knows-it-best-guy entered the scene.
Someone has to be the voice of reason. I'm happy to provide it for you.

So for every word I produce, I have to back it up with how many sources? 5 ?
No, one should suffice for every unfounded clam you make. You have provided... What, a wiki-page? A general wiki-page? That counts as none.

No, I’m not generalizing. Not even close.
If I wrote somewhere ‘some’, then some people seem to be temporally blind. They don’t see the ‘some’
Sure you are. You say "Some" then conclude "all". Congratulations. That's generalisation.

No wiki isn’t always right, but it is a damn good trustable source. Much more reliable that what you see here.
No, it really isn't. The sources wikipedia links to, however, can be. And where such provocative topics such as women in Islam is concerned, it's not trustworthy as people with agendas (one way or the other) tend to contribute heavily.

I was waiting till someone would find a female Muslim jurist. As a matter of fact, I found one by myself. It took me some time.
So you agree that you were wrong. Good.

The message is: they are very very very rare. And that’s not normal. But hey by finding in triumph one female, now the whole problem is solved now. I think that the Muslim society is pretty sick that the last 200 years almost no single female could be a jurist. This issue alone is strong enough to have a carefull view on Islam.
Not normal? As opposed to what? Present day western style democracies? Non-muslim asian countries? African countries? Again, "normal" needs to be defined.

And you haven't proven that your changed goalposts of "very rare"/"almost no" is correct either. The one jurist I provided just proved your original statement wrong.

Tell me how many female jurists there are in Turkey or Indonesia please? I can tell you that there's more than none. And in Pakistan. Here, let me prove my point, as you seem reluctant to do:

A top Pakistani judge has forbidden female lawyers to wear the Muslim hijab [III&E backgrounder; JURIST news archive] (veil) in his courtroom, according to the Saturday edition of Pakistan's Daily Times [media website] newspaper. The Times quotes Chief Justice Tariq Pervaiz Khan [official profile] of the Peshawar High Court [official website] as telling veiled lawyer Raees Anjum, "You are professionals and should be dressed as required of lawyers... We (judges) cannot identify veiled woman lawyers and suspect that veiled lawyers appear to seek adjournment of proceedings in other lawyers' cases." Khan added that he could barely hear Anjum speak from behind her covering.

Anjum, who considers herself "a progressive Muslim woman... living and working in this conservative society", told the Times after her admonishment. "I was embarrassed when the chief justice asked me not to wear veil in courtrooms. I feel more confident in my hijab... [It] reflects a woman's modesty". She pointed out that the local government is divided on the issue of veiled professionals. While Khan has forbidden them, several female judges in Peshawar's North West Frontier Province wear the hijab during proceedings, as do all female legislators in the region's dominant political party. IANS has more.
Source (http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/11/pakistan-judge-forbids-muslim-veils-in.php)


The only thing you do is writing:
“fault”, “untrue”, “unlogic” most of the time accompanied with no explanation, what is fault and/or what your idea is. That’s easier of course.
I did that what, once? I have explained for the rest of the post.

Give me break, what do you want? That I would say “The Islam is a female friendly environment”?
No, I won't give you a break. I want you to be accurate and intellectually honest - and back up your claims.

Well read some books and papers of women that have the experience from INSIDE…
Do not assume that I haven't, just because you make a post that makes it seem like you are largely ignorant - except for having read a wiki article - on the subject.

And for me this subject is closed. I don’t mind that people have radical other ideas and impressions about everything. From those people, I can learn the most, not from my peers.
You don't want a debate. I see...

But debating and debating is two. By just serving ‘fault’, ‘error’, ‘not accurate’ you’re not having a debate.
At least, tell what's wrong and why. Add your own opinion. And if I have to add sources. Where's yours? I don't see a single source...
I've offered you more that just "fault" and "error", if you'd like to go back and read my post again.

And you're the one making the claims, so the burden of proof is on you. However, I'd like to draw your attention to my slightly witty captioned pic, which by itself serves as not only easy amusement but also a source for my claim.

If fact in this whole thread, the only source came from me, no?

If wiki is wrong, then correct it...
Wiki is not absolute truth. If I were to edit the wiki, would you suddenly change your mind, is that what you're saying?

I guess I have to talk to the hand now, ‘cause the face will not listen anymore…
Indeed. You don't want a debate, you just want to rant, and you don't like it when someone doesn't take your claims on face value.

Look everybody im a muslim so i can explain how it works ok?]
while in islam all men and woman who are believers are equal in the eyes of god, much of the koran is vague and open to interpetetion also it depends on the culture many places are used to woman being in a lesser role before they converted and it contnued the prophet himself(peace be upon his name) was a female rights activist, before him woman were killed right after childbirth very frequently and he supported womans right to rule, so its not islam to blaim its the fact that unlike christians we dont have a centrilised clerical system and anyone whos charismatic can took the islamic studies can do whatever he wants thus the fucked up muslim fitna(civil war) thats happening now, so give me a country and ill give you an answer ok:D

Fundamentalist religion in general is not very friendly to females. Fundamentalist Islam is no exception.

I'm just going to skip all the crap, ignore this topic from here as blatand stupidity and prejudice, and use this final post to call into question the validity of anything Edwinasia has said.


Btw, while my own impression is not empiric, it is counting as well.

So everything from here on in is your impression from experiance. Thus we will examine it as such.

On New Years Eve, the bars, dancings and cafes around the Great Market are loaded with Muslims (oh yes, they attend bars, they even drink alcohol). ALL are male, not one is female. One starts wondering if the majority of Muslim men are homosexual. Their wives are not visible at night!

Muslims going to bars is like Nazis going to a Synagouge to pray and do other religiously Jewish things. It doesn't happen, and if it does those people doing it are violating their beliefs to a level which only 200 years ago in the west would have had you burned alive for something like worshiping satan.
So while I'm sure every brown person you see is a muslim in your eyes, and thus the bars are packed with them, you're quite deep here out of reality.


One day, I was drinking something with a Muslim girl (wearing a veil) in a karaoke bar. Suddenly some Muslim boys entered the joint. They were looking ugly to her and said some disgusting things in Arab to her.

See the above statement regarding muslims in bars. Then read previous postings regarding women in bars in general. And finally, remember that in reality wearing a headscarf is an aspct of many religions and cultures, not just Islam, and lots of non-muslim women wear one too.

She has to leave the bar. She was afraid of being beaten up.
Oh yes, she didn't know those guys...

If she were an even remotely religious Muslim, she'd be worried about a lot more things then some stupid guys wanting to beat her up. She's an obvious minority in a bar full of drunken idiots, and she's female. That alone precludes possibilities of rape and assault for any woman, regardless of religion. Not to mention the fact that she just commited, knowingly, some serious sins.

You think this is normal? I don’t. And no, this was not an exceptional event.

I think you made it all up. Or you mixed a woman you thought was Muslim but was not. Either way it calls into question everything you say based on the simple fact that Islam is a dry religion.

One day, I was smoking in front of our office with her. Suddenly some Muslim guys in a car passed by and started to shout at her. Things like “whore!”

Perhaps it would be because she was smoking? I know I'd be disgusted by that disgusting habit for that. But then again I believe you made this story up as well.

I was in shock. I asked her why.

She stayed calm and said “Oh well, I’m wearing a veil, so I am supposed to be religious and that’s including that I shouldn’t talk with you a male non-Muslim and also...I’m smoking cigarettes…”

And this throws completely into doubt whatever you say. Previously you have stated yourself to be a woman, and proud of it, ad also proud of being a sex object. Yet here, as in the bolded part, you refer to yourself as a male. You've just magically switched genders, and thus as far as I'm concerned everything you've said is a lie and posted here simply because you have some prejudiced gripe against Islam.

A religion/culture is treating women as second-class citizens! No way!

:rolleyes:

Snip.

Holy crap your pimping hand is strong!

The Role of Women in the world of Islam.

Like it or not, but for Muslims, women are second class people.

You fail at understanding Islam.


• Women have to wear a veil, men don’t. While both sexes should dress modestly. Women always have to do an extra. Women have more to them for men lust over. Women are more beautiful than men.

• Women can’t drive a car (in some countries), men can. Thats not Islamic, its cultural.

• In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man. Cultural.

• It’s common in Islam countries that killers pay a fine (=diyyat) to the victims their relatives or family. But killing a woman is cheaper: half the price of the man! This is actually written in the law codex of several Muslim countries. Cultural

• In some Islam countries men are allowed to practise polygamy. They can have several women. But women can’t have several men.
Men, historically speaking, are the money makers, not women. Men are only allowed to have up to 4 wives, IF, and ONLY IF, they can support them all equally with love, and materials.
• When they marry, men are asked to be nice for their women. Women will be asked to obey their men. Sort of like Christianity too, right?

• The right to ask for a divorce is almost exclusive for men. In some countries and under certain conditions women can try to convince a male judge to grant a divorce. I believe that is cultural as well.

• When women have their menstruation they are considered to be unclean and they are advised to stay away from the mosque. Not sure about this one.


• In these mosques, the best ‘seats’ are for the men. They can sit in front, women sit always behind them or are just separated from the men.Actually, the separation is so that men and women can focus on worship and prayer in the mosque, not on the opposite sex.


• The last 200 years there is not one single female jurist in any Muslim country.cultural

• In most Muslim countries both sexes can vote. In Saudi Arabia women can’t at all and in Lebanon only women have to proof they are educated before they can vote. Cultural. But in all honesty, democracy is not really Islamic.

[/quote]
And when they come to Europe or USA, sure they have to obey our rules, but in reality most don’t.

Women are sometimes ill informed about their rights here. And even if they do know their rights, most of them will not use them because their social and family life would be terminated.

I consider the Islam as one of the most female unfriendly religions around.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you should consider Middle Eastern traditions as female unfriendly.

And this throws completely into doubt whatever you say. Previously you have stated yourself to be a woman, and proud of it, ad also proud of being a sex object. Yet here, as in the bolded part, you refer to yourself as a male. You've just magically switched genders, and thus as far as I'm concerned everything you've said is a lie and posted here simply because you have some prejudiced gripe against Islam.

Dunno who you are, but you're now my new hero.

Dunno who you are, but you're now my new hero.

Mine too. Think he'll let us walk behind him during break?

And this throws completely into doubt whatever you say. Previously you have stated yourself to be a woman, and proud of it, ad also proud of being a sex object. Yet here, as in the bolded part, you refer to yourself as a male. You've just magically switched genders, and thus as far as I'm concerned everything you've said is a lie and posted here simply because you have some prejudiced gripe against Islam.

I don't agree with everything you posted, but you made two good points.

First, the nice catch that demolishes any credibility Edwinasia might have had.

Second, the point about how those who fail to live by the tenets of Islam (by consuming alcohol) are supposed to be examples to characterize and illustrate all muslims. (Also disregarding that there's no way of knowing that these unknown guys even were muslims, and ignoring the fact that an asshat is an asshat regardless of spiritual belief.)

I'm amused. :)

what the prophet said was when women PMS dont annoy them and this im not sure but i think they shouldnt go becuause theyll start bleeding on the carpets maybe:headbang::upyours::sniper::mp5:

First of all Saudi arabia sucks cus of the brits and the yanks, two its the isreal who fucked up lebanon with the christian militias and unfair representation

I appear to be getting a reading on my patented DK-style OMG Evil Musims! thread detector.

I might go and get a beer, mch les of a waste of energy.

Dunno who you are, but you're now my new hero.

Thank you, thank you.
I show up in NSG from time to time to point out blaring inconsistancies, then leave.

Or the wholly sexist practice of young Hindu woman tying little pieces of string around the wrists of their big brothers to remind them of their obligation to look after their younger sisters! Disgusting!

I assume you are talking about Rakhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakhi). In which case not only is what you say nonsense, but also uninformed nonsense. It is a festival that brings brothers and sisters (and, in most families, cousins) together. It is an emblem of the love that we share. Please, talk to a Hindu before making broad generalizations.

And this throws completely into doubt whatever you say. Previously you have stated yourself to be a woman, and proud of it, ad also proud of being a sex object. Yet here, as in the bolded part, you refer to yourself as a male. You've just magically switched genders, and thus as far as I'm concerned everything you've said is a lie and posted here simply because you have some prejudiced gripe against Islam.

Nicely done on finding the inconsistencies. You I like.

Well, that girl reached more in a few years than you will reach in your entire life (including your children and your children their children).

Yeah... as if reaching a wide Western audience by publishing one huge "Muslims Are Evil" rant is an impossible feat in this post-9/11 age.

I don't agree on everything what she is saying, but she deserves some huge respect.

And apparently that respect in your case also involves emulating her "Being oppressed by a chauvinistic culture twisting religious scripture to justify its existence certifies you as a religious scholar" approach to chanting "Muslims Are Evil" over and over.

I appear to be getting a reading on my patented DK-style OMG Evil Musims! thread detector.

I might go and get a beer, mch les of a waste of energy.

You know those suckers tend to burn out after a week of scanning NSG, even when Kimchi isn't posting as of late.

When you are looking for free choice of religion then one should accept critique on your religion as well.

You can’t have one, without the other.

All the points I made are real, they did not happen a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

They are happening NOW and in lots of Muslim countries. Lots of the woman unfriendly stuff is happening in your local Muslimhood INSIDE Europe or USA.

When I used the word ‘some’ then it does mean it is not valid for all countries or cultures.

By instance, marrying 9-years old girls is not a common practise in the Islam world, but in some countries it is. Like in Yemen.

Btw is it not Muhammed himself who married a SIX year old child, called Arisha?

I used sometimes the word ‘many’. I used this to make clear that the majority of Muslim countries/cultures are practising some rule, behaviour or whatever.

By instance:
In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man.


Some people their explanation for the woman unfriendly stuff is:

‘Oh yes, but that’s not Islam, that’s culture’

Well, you can find lines in the Qur’an about most issues. They aren’t woman-friendly either and are saying more or less the same things.

And btw, culture and religion are connected with each other. They do influence each other. In Africa, Christianity is a different animal as in Europe. The African culture influenced their version of Christianity.

When I stated ‘I’m a woman’, if was referring to Alex Keaton in Family Ties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Ties) who said the same in an episode about women rights.

To make things clear, I’m a man.

The techniques that some of you used are not that surprising and, this all, to deny that women are not treated equal:

• Bashing the messenger
• Ask for ‘proof’ in my statements, but not providing proof by themselves.
• Just lying. Like saying that Muslims never attend bars. Oh and they do, they really do.

Islam isn’t nice for women. Like it or not.

And it is fighting with the culture in the West. But when Muslim come to here, they have to adapt to us and we do not have to search for compromises.

Some American philosopher wrote around 1918 (I forgot who and the exact date) about immigration something as:

‘We should not accept that they can beat-up their wives on Monday, Wednesday and Friday but not on Tues- and Thursday.”

For some issues, there’s no compromise possible:

• Woman should have the same rights.
• Homosexuality is accepted in our culture.
• Etc…

I’m not political correct. It is better that I should follow the other sheep and deny the problem. In Europe we did it for decades and now we are facing enormous troubles.

The burning cars in Paris were just a teaser, there’s more to come.

When you are looking for free choice of religion then one should accept critique on your religion as well.

You can’t have one, without the other.

A critique is one thing. Hopping on a bandwagon tirade against a single religion that's preaching to a choir is another. Nothing unites people like persecuting. It says much that on NationStates General that Christians, Jews, Hindus, and even Athiests and Satanists can all hold hands together and sing "Muslims Are Evil!!" like they were recording for Live Aid.

All the points I made are real, they did not happen a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

They are happening NOW and in lots of Muslim countries. Lots of the woman unfriendly stuff is happening in your local Muslimhood INSIDE Europe or USA.

Do you have documented proof that Muslim women in Europe or the United States are being systematically oppressed and abused as opposed to in Third World shitholes like parts of the Middle East and Africa?

When I used the word ‘some’ then it does mean it is not valid for all countries or cultures.

By instance, marrying 9-years old girls is not a common practise in the Islam world, but in some countries it is. Like in Yemen.

Btw is it not Muhammed himself who married a SIX year old child, called Arisha?

Aside from dismissing the context of human lifespan back in those days and with no solid evidence that can undeniably prove that Muhammed literally married a six year old girl, you're obviously trying to insinuate that all Muslims are pedophiles.

I used sometimes the word ‘many’. I used this to make clear that the majority of Muslim countries/cultures are practising some rule, behaviour or whatever.

By instance:
In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man.


Some people their explanation for the woman unfriendly stuff is:

‘Oh yes, but that’s not Islam, that’s culture’

Well, you can find lines in the Qur’an about most issues. They aren’t woman-friendly either and are saying more or less the same things.

And btw, culture and religion are connected with each other. They do influence each other. In Africa, Christianity is a different animal as in Europe. The African culture influenced their version of Christianity.

Once more you're dismissing culture and assume the discrimination is mandated by the religion when the Qu'ran has no unambiguous passage that specifies treating women as chattel. And like so many Islamaphobes, you lump Muslims into a singular hivemind collective- or at best you think of Islam as mainly Shiite and Sunni sects of extreme fanaticism. Which is like saying Christianity is only about Catholicism and Anglicanism.

I dare someone to dig up an article where a Sufi blew the shit out of a whole lot of people or chopped someone's head off. I dare you.

When I stated ‘I’m a woman’, if was referring to Alex Keaton in Family Ties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Ties) who said the same in an episode about women rights.

To make things clear, I’m a man.

Ah, so you lie about being a woman so you can play the Ayaan Ali Hirsi Card and rant about how Muslims oppress women. That and citing Wikipedia as a source really boosts your credibility.

You'd have a promising career as a Religious Reporter at The New Tork Times.

:rolleyes:

The main problem with your argument is that you state that these practices occasionally occur, such as:

marrying 9-years old girls is not a common practise in the Islam world

And then you conclude, in generalizing statements, like:

Islam isn’t nice for women. Like it or not.

And it is fighting with the culture in the West. But when Muslim come to here, they have to adapt to us and we do not have to search for compromises.

Your bolder statements in which you use words like many are simply not supported by the source you have presented…

I used sometimes the word ‘many’. I used this to make clear that the majority of Muslim countries/cultures are practising some rule, behaviour or whatever.

By instance:
In many Muslim countries, the courtroom testimonials of women do not count. Some countries are “liberal” and accept that two female testimonials could equal the testimonial of one man.

Some jurists have held that certain types testimony by women will not be accepted.[21]. In other cases, the testimony of two women can equal that of one man.[21][Qur'an 2:282][22] The reason for this disparity has been explained in various manners, including women's lack of intelligence,[23] women's temperament and sphere of interest,[24] and sparing women from the burden of testifying.[25] In other areas, women's testimony may be accepted on an equal basis with men's.

:eek: ps :eek:

Note that your chosen article has been modified heavily by a single account starting 26 of September; your thread dates from the 27th… so it is unlikely it is done in reaction to your post, and the changes currently seem more or less in support of your thread… e.g.
it is hard to prove that a women committed ''zina'' because the accuser needs four witnesses. Was changed in women may be found guilty more easily than men, because of the visible evidence of pregnancy; without a pregancy, four witnesses are required to file a ''zina'' case

Commentators on the status of women in Islam have often focused on disparities in diyyatwas added

Such rules were historically often eroded and subverted, claims Esposito, by social custom, poverty, and illiteracy was changed in These interpretations and their application were shaped by the historical context of the Muslim world, including its social customs, poverty, and illiteracy

Female genital cutting has been associated with Islam and has acquired a religious dimension was also added

I am still looking into it… as I write, but it I am more and more appalled by what I find… It is not all bad, some are actual improvements to the article, but it is suggestive… More nuanced statements are dropped, while criminalizing elements are introduced… very slowly but in a disturbing way...

A critique is one thing. Hopping on a bandwagon tirade against a single religion that's preaching to a choir is another. Nothing unites people like persecuting. It says much that on NationStates General that Christians, Jews, Hindus, and even Athiests and Satanists can all hold hands together and sing "Muslims Are Evil!!" like they were recording for Live Aid.

I didn't say that Muslims are evil. I said that Islam is woman unfriendly and that Muslim women are oppressed.

But hey, it's all part of the game.


Do you have documented proof that Muslim women in Europe or the United States are being systematically oppressed and abused as opposed to in Third World shitholes like parts of the Middle East and Africa?

Yes. Look at the points in my initial post. They are documented and not only by Wiki. Even Muslim people wrote stuff about it.


Aside from dismissing the context of human lifespan back in those days and with no solid evidence that can undeniably prove that Muhammed literally married a six year old girl, you're obviously trying to insinuate that all Muslims are pedophiles.

The average life span was shorter. But not that short that it was common practise to marry 6 year old children.

I do not have the proof anything. I formulated a question. Since when do I have to proof questions?

Btw in Yemen, they still do such things.

Yes, I consider marrying children as paedophilia.

No, I didn't say that all Muslims are paedophiles. But I know for sure that some Muslims are paedophiles.




Once more you're dismissing culture and assume the discrimination is mandated by the religion when the Qu'ran has no unambiguous passage that specifies treating women as chattel. And like so many Islamaphobes, you lump Muslims into a singular hivemind collective- or at best you think of Islam as mainly Shiite and Sunni sects of extreme fanaticism. Which is like saying Christianity is only about Catholicism and Anglicanism.

Yes, that's another trick. Suggesting that Islam version XYZ is not the same Islam version ABC.

Again, I used rather a lot words as 'some' and 'many', smart people know their purpose.

I am not aware of any women friendly Islam version. Do you know any?


I dare someone to dig up an article where a Sufi blew the shit out of a whole lot of people or chopped someone's head off. I dare you.




Ah, so you lie about being a woman so you can play the Ayaan Ali Hirsi Card and rant about how Muslims oppress women. That and citing Wikipedia as a source really boosts your credibility.

It doesn't matter if I'm male or female. Women are 2nd class in the world of Islam.

Oh sure, Hirsi isn't safe. One day she will be killed by some Muslim, isn't?

Wiki isn't that bad as a source. Is it perfect? No.
But for YOU it's bad. Because it's telling not so nice words about Islam, isn't?

I could give you a list with dozen sites about women unfriendly stuff in the Islam. Try Google!


You'd have a promising career as a Religious Reporter at The New Tork Times.

:rolleyes:

No, but thank you. I'm pretty relaxed with my current position.

I can assure you that I'm not changing wiki.

But, I expected that some people from here are doing it now.

Oh well, it doesn't harm. If their corrections are not valid then they will be removed soon.




The main problem with your argument is that you state that these practices occasionally occur, such as:



And then you conclude, in generalizing statements, like:



Your bolder statements in which you use words like many are simply not supported by the source you have presented…





:eek: ps :eek:

Note that your chosen article has been modified heavily by a single account starting 26 of September; your thread dates from the 27th… so it is unlikely it is done in reaction to your post, and the changes currently seem more or less in support of your thread… e.g.
Was changed in

was added

was changed in

was also added

I am still looking into it… as I write, but it I am more and more appalled by what I find… It is not all bad, some are actual improvements to the article, but it is suggestive… More nuanced statements are dropped, while criminalizing elements are introduced… very slowly but in a disturbing way...

why bother, if the moslima women like it this way; than so be it; I dont hear them protesting. most moslima girls enslave themselfs to men because they think it's the will of their God. They think they don't deserve rights, but if you're protesting against it like this; why you don't go to the North-Afrikan countrys and protest there.

Where in bible does it state that women and men are equal and that pope's testicles should not be checked before his term of service?

According to the Koran:

“Men have authority over women, for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient … and those you fear may be rebellious, admonish them to their couches, and beat them”. (The Koran, Women, verse 38)

In Islam, women are considered dangerous both sexually and in other ways. Therefore women should not to be allowed to have any authority in society other than in their roles as wives and mothers; they become mere extensions of men. Islam’s prophet says: “There is no salvation for a man or a nation who allows women to rule over them”. So women’s freedom must be restricted. Control is made possible by the idea of hijab: the veil, which exists in Christianity and Judaism as well as Islam. The veil, or curtain, delimits the physical boundary of women’s existence in society in order to protect men and the community from the possible moral or social danger or destruction they may cause. The reasoning is as follows: “if the physical appearance of a woman can awaken feelings in a man, even though she is not aware of it, this will probably lead him to want her, which may lead to adultery”

Source:
http://www.middleastwomen.org/html/oppression.htm

On http://www.middleastwomen.org/ you can see some present time topics, like:

* Iran: “bad hijab women” on rise

In the past few months hundreds of Iranian women have been bundled off the streets and arrested. Officially, they were breaking the 'correct' Islamic dress code. But the real aim is to keep women second-class citizens...

* Nigeria: Introduction of women-only taxis introduced

New lemon-yellow motorised rickshaws for women, bearing the slogan 'Be Pious', are vying for pole position in Nigeria's Muslim-dominated north...

* Kuwait: Barring women from working night jobs

The Kuwaiti parliament on Monday passed a law banning women from working at night, except those in the medical profession, and barring them from jobs considered ‘immoral.’ (AFP)

The law, which was passed unanimously, prohibits women from working between 8:00 pm and 7:00 am and in jobs that ‘contravene with public morals and in all-men service places at any time.’ ..

* Palestine: 'Wear a veil or we will behead you'

The 'Righteous Swords of Islam' warned that it would strike the women with "an iron fist and swords" for refusing to wear a veil on camera.

* France: Muslim women desperate to "restore virginity"

Gynaecologists in France are divided over a new phenomenon: demands by Muslim women to "restore" their virginity.

Some Muslim women are demanding operations to reconstitute their hymens before marriage and medical certificates stating that they are virgins. They are desperate to avoid rejection from men who won't take supposedly "unchaste" women as wives.


It are just a few issues, happening NOW and around the globe...