NationStates Jolt Archive

Say, you're in a serious relationship with someone, keys have been exchanged, moving in together is imminent, discussions about the common future have been fruitful and you're happy as can be that you're finally settling down with the man/woman/genderqueer person of your dreams.

Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger, has horrible remorse about it and tells you straight away, begging for forgiveness.

Would you be able to forgive? Poll coming.

Edit: And of course, there's an uneditable grammar mistake in the poll. Typical.

Forgiveness might be possible eventually, but I would certainly put off plans to move in with them for a while.

Say, you're in a serious relationship with someone, keys have been exchanged, moving in together is imminent, discussion about the common future have been fruitful and you're happy as can be that you're finally settling down with the man/woman/genderqueer person of your dreams.

Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger, has horrible remorse about it and tells you straight away, begging for forgiveness.

Would you be able to forgive? Poll coming.
Did that happen to you?

Say, you're in a serious relationship with someone, keys have been exchanged, moving in together is imminent, discussion about the common future have been fruitful and you're happy as can be that you're finally settling down with the man/woman/genderqueer person of your dreams.

Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger, has horrible remorse about it and tells you straight away, begging for forgiveness.

Would you be able to forgive? Poll coming.

Most likely, yes.

of course, there will be a discussion and depending on alot of factors, things may... change. :p

Most likely, yes.

of course, there will be a discussion and depending on alot of factors, things may... change. :p

Factors such as?

I think it would take a while to completely do so, but I would forgive them for it. There are times when people do absolutely idiotic things that they would never do intentionally to hurt another person, especially one they love, and I will forgive them if they are truly remorseful for what they did. People are not perfect, and to hold them to a standard where one serious mistake is an unforgivable slight is simply unfair and wrong.

However, if they abuse that trust and forgiveness and do something like it again, they're gone. I will never forgive them for that.

If it was the first offense and I was fairly confident it would never happen again, forgiveness could be granted, although I would not forget about the incident. In fact, I'd make it pretty clear any repeat offense would be punished with extreme prejudice.

And by extreme prejudice, I mean murder. Passion crimes FTW.

Okay, maybe not murder. But I'd wait till he wasn't at home, dump all his things on the street to be picked up by the trash collectors, and change the locks before he got home. Then I would grant him a small measure of mercy and make a bonfire out of all the pictures of us together to let him warm himself while he peered into the windows, crying.

Seriously, Fass? If he does forgive you, don't ever be this stupid again, okay?

Say, you're in a serious relationship with someone, keys have been exchanged, moving in together is imminent, discussion about the common future have been fruitful and you're happy as can be that you're finally settling down with the man/woman/genderqueer person of your dreams.

Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger, has horrible remorse about it and tells you straight away, begging for forgiveness.

Would you be able to forgive? Poll coming.

Of course I would be able to forgive said person. I am a very forgiving person. Even before I was a Christian, I was that way. I've had my own family say all the nastiest things in the book to me, and I just forgive them and move on like nothing happened. I would imagine it'd be the same if my lover slept around on me.

Fass, may I ask you if this is asked based on a personal experience you are going through?


Edit: And of course, there's an uneditable grammar mistake in the poll. Typical.

Aww Poor Fass:p

Factors such as?

there's always a reason behind any stupid act. it's the reason behind it that I would factor in.

from "he was a hot guy", To "I had too much to drink that day/night."

Even including "I was just soo pissed at what you did/did not do."

would I be angry at her? can't say really, but hopefuly no. anger doesn't help solve problems.

Okay, maybe not murder. But I'd wait till he wasn't at home, dump all his things on the street to be picked up by the trash collectors, and change the locks before he got home. Then I would grant him a small measure of mercy and make a bonfire out of all the pictures of us together to let him warm himself while he peered into the windows, crying.

That's a bit petty, don't you think?

Seriously, Fass? If he does forgive you, don't ever be this stupid again, okay?

He didn't.

there's always a reason behind any stupid act. it's the reason behind it that I would factor in.

from "he was a hot guy", To "I had too much to drink that day/night."

Even including "I was just soo pissed at what you did/did not do."

would I be angry at her? can't say really, but hopefuly no. anger doesn't help solve problems.

What about "I don't know, it just happened"?

its not a matter of forgiveness.

its a matter of trust. and, of course, of the type of relationship and the expectations each person has.

of course i could forgive someone i love of almost anything. but for ME, such a quick lapse of fidelity means that my lover does not really have the same attitude toward fidelity that i do.

he would have to convince me that the incident has led him to change his attitude to one of appreciating faithfulness more than he did before. until i felt that i could trust this change, i couldnt trust him. without trust there is no sense continuing a long term relationship.

he would have to convince me that the incident has led him to change his attitude to one of appreciating faithfulness more than he did before. until i felt that i could trust this change, i couldnt trust him. without trust there is no sense continuing a long term relationship.

The trust issue is not affected by the person telling you about it and coming clean at the nearest opportunity?

That's a bit petty, don't you think?

And completely non-serious.

Sure, I'd fantasize about doing it, but I certainly would never be purposefully hurtful towards the man I love, no matter how much he hurt me. I've never really believed in "an eye for an eye".

But even though I might be able to forgive such a thing once, I would certainly not forgive it more than that. Everybody deserves a second chance, sure. But one also needs to have enough self respect not to let someone get away with repeatedly hurting your feelings.




He didn't.
I'm... saddened to hear it. Especially considering how remorseful you were. But some people do not take betrayal of their trust lightly, and not everyone is able to rebuild trust once it's been battered. That might have been the case with your ex boyfriend.

But you know, if I was a psy, I'd be tempted to ask you why you did it. Did the happiness and commitment scare you and you did something stupid in an unconscious attempt to sabotage it?

What about "I don't know, it just happened"?

Seriously?

No.

Not because I am a judgemental or moralistic whore. Rather, because I am a heterosexual male and my partner would thus be female. The implications of this are heay in the decision. In terms of evolutionary psychology, men are far more inclined to 'cheat' due simply to the benefit to the species of a male 'spreading his seed'. It doesn't really matter what he inseminates, and he will pretty well jump at the opportunity to do so with a vague preference for healthy looking cantidates. How this translates into our complex social structures is that men are prone to cheating because they have to fight their base urges rightly telling them to diversify the gene pool at no aditional cost to themselves. On the other end of the scales is a meaningless social value and their regard for the feelings of their partner. Thus, when a man actually does cheat, it is usually of little consequence to the relationship as a whole, and to the man little more than the scratching of an itch, not indicative of any problems with his mate of choice. Thus comes the oh-so-famous explanation "It was only sex, she didn't mean anything to me!".

Let us now take a look at women. For them to diversify the gene pool, they have to take 9 months out and risk possible death. As such, their evolutionary psychology is very different. Instead of just screwing nything, they are inclined toward picking more carefully. Not onlydo they look for healthy males who will produce the best offspring with her, but she also looks to his qualities as a provider- seeing as he will be the only thing taking care of her and said offspring for some time. For this reaon, women cheat much less frequently than men. They just aren't constntly compelled to do so. So what does it mean when a woman cheats on her partner? Basically, she doesn't respect her existing partner as a progenitor and/or provider. She feels her investment would be better laid with someone else. This is why when women cheat you often hear the reason "I was just looking for support, someone I could rely on".

So in a nutshell, Men cheat because their body tells them to, women cheat because they are dissatisfied with their current partner in a grander and more significant sense.

Thus if my partner were to cheat on me, then it would likely be due to her lack of respect for me as her man, indicating much more of a fatal flaw in the relationship. In this scenario, it is better or me to end the relationship, than try to work from a foundation that is fundamentally broken (The alternative is to change the way how she sees you, but one usually doesn't feel like living up to the expectations of those who don't respect you, plus change isn't something easily effected in oneself or another's perception).

Of course, there are exceptions, wherein the reaons is born and based soley in the social superstructure (e.g. pressure from friends).

And completely non-serious.

One never knows in these parts.

But you know, if I was a psy, I'd be tempted to ask you why you did it. Did the happiness and commitment scare you and you did something stupid in an unconscious attempt to sabotage it?

Please, don't. I am not in the mood for being analysed - I've endured enough of that and the inherent judgements from people who actually know me.

So in a nutshell, Men cheat because their body tells them to, women cheat because they are dissatisfied with their current partner in a grander and more significant sense.

Ugh, I've never bought into biologist apologism for people's behaviour, and that's not just because it usually works to absolve one sex and inculpate the other, but because it relieves people of responsibility and almost declares them infirm.

Please, don't. I am not in the mood for being analysed - I've endured enough of that and the inherent judgements from people who actually know me.

All right, let's not go there then.

So, did he not forgive in a completely unequivocal way, without appeal, or do you still have the impression you could convince him to give you a second chance or that he would change his mind once a bit of time has passed?

Ugh, I've never bought into biologist apologism for people's behaviour, and that's not just because it usually works to absolve one sex and inculpate the other, but because it relieves people of responsibility and almost declares them infirm.

Yeah, seems more like a macho's way out of taking responsibility for his infidelities.

Let's put it this way: I'm a male, and I'm perfectly able to fight my urge to hump anything that moves in order to save myself for my loved one. If I can do it, I don't see why everyone shouldn't be able to if they wanted to.

The trust issue is not affected by the person telling you about it and coming clean at the nearest opportunity?

no

its too early in the relationship to overlook. a man who isnt faithful at the start when things are going well isnt likely to be faithful later.

now, as we all know, no one is perfect. we all have terrible failings. if i could be convinced that it was the mistake that proved to him that such behavior was much worse than he had understood it to be before he did it, i might not walk away.

What about "I don't know, it just happened"?


"it just happened" is a terrible answer.

isnt that an indication that it will just happen again?

Say, you're in a serious relationship with someone, keys have been exchanged, moving in together is imminent, discussions about the common future have been fruitful and you're happy as can be that you're finally settling down with the man/woman/genderqueer person of your dreams.

Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger, has horrible remorse about it and tells you straight away, begging for forgiveness.

Would you be able to forgive? Poll coming.

Probably not, no. Maybe after a very long time.

No, I wouldn't accept it.

If I'd gone into a relationship on an exclusive basis, which, as wrong or right that might be, I'd probably do, then I simply wouldn't accept that level of trust-breaking.

No matter how drunk you get, you make a decision and though I could accept the decision you made, I could not accept that you made the decision.

If I did not have the upper hand in the relationship, I might allow it out of not wishing to lose you but, given equality, bye bye.

What about "I don't know, it just happened"?

that's a Bull Shit answer. They either don't respect me or they do know and they don't respect me enough to tell me why.

Either way it's not someone I would want to continue a relationship with.

I would forgive, but I probably wouldn't continue like nothing happened, and I certainly wouldn't let them off the hook with a B.S. answer like "I don't know, it just happened"

No.

Not because I am a judgemental or moralistic whore. Rather, because I am a heterosexual male and my partner would thus be female. The implications of this are heay in the decision. In terms of evolutionary psychology, men are far more inclined to 'cheat' due simply to the benefit to the species of a male 'spreading his seed'. It doesn't really matter what he inseminates, and he will pretty well jump at the opportunity to do so with a vague preference for healthy looking cantidates. How this translates into our complex social structures is that men are prone to cheating because they have to fight their base urges rightly telling them to diversify the gene pool at no aditional cost to themselves. On the other end of the scales is a meaningless social value and their regard for the feelings of their partner. Thus, when a man actually does cheat, it is usually of little consequence to the relationship as a whole, and to the man little more than the scratching of an itch, not indicative of any problems with his mate of choice. Thus comes the oh-so-famous explanation "It was only sex, she didn't mean anything to me!".

Let us now take a look at women. For them to diversify the gene pool, they have to take 9 months out and risk possible death. As such, their evolutionary psychology is very different. Instead of just screwing nything, they are inclined toward picking more carefully. Not onlydo they look for healthy males who will produce the best offspring with her, but she also looks to his qualities as a provider- seeing as he will be the only thing taking care of her and said offspring for some time. For this reaon, women cheat much less frequently than men. They just aren't constntly compelled to do so. So what does it mean when a woman cheats on her partner? Basically, she doesn't respect her existing partner as a progenitor and/or provider. She feels her investment would be better laid with someone else. This is why when women cheat you often hear the reason "I was just looking for support, someone I could rely on".

So in a nutshell, Men cheat because their body tells them to, women cheat because they are dissatisfied with their current partner in a grander and more significant sense.

Thus if my partner were to cheat on me, then it would likely be due to her lack of respect for me as her man, indicating much more of a fatal flaw in the relationship. In this scenario, it is better or me to end the relationship, than try to work from a foundation that is fundamentally broken (The alternative is to change the way how she sees you, but one usually doesn't feel like living up to the expectations of those who don't respect you, plus change isn't something easily effected in oneself or another's perception).
Basically, you wouldn't forgive a cheating partner because you're a gender-stereotyping jerk.

Ugh, I've never bought into biologist apologism for people's behaviour, and that's not just because it usually works to absolve one sex and inculpate the other, but because it relieves people of responsibility and almost declares them infirm. Only if you want it to. I merely use it to illuminate the likely base motivations behind an individual's actions, not to allieviate and responsibility. See, 'responsibility' itself is actually a product of th social superstructure, thus it can only be considered and dealt with on such terms. It is inane to say "I am male, thus I have no responsibility to remain faithful", as the commitment to fidelity is something one makes from a social context. If one is to cite biology as a cop out for social misconduct, then the pretense of social adherence should never be made.

Basically, you wouldn't forgive a cheating partner because you're a gender-stereotyping jerk.

Wow. That's a lot more straightforward then I would have put it, but it sure sounds right.

Seriously, "Men cheat 'cuz they have no choice and don't really mean to do harm, but women are evil bitches who cheat on you on purpose because they are hateful hags who don't respect you as a man"?

Come on. :rolleyes:

Yeah, seems more like a macho's way out of taking responsibility for his infidelities. You could fallaciously implement it to such ends. Then again, you could just as easily get called on such a fallacy.

Let's put it this way: I'm a male, and I'm perfectly able to fight my urge to hump anything that moves in order to save myself for my loved one. If I can do it, I don't see why everyone shouldn't be able to if they wanted to. You are a socially mature an engaged dult, you commitment to certain social mores can easily outweigh the niggling of your body's tendencies. If you lose value for said mores, that is when you cheat. Pretty much it is when you want gratification more than you care for whatever reason it is you don't cheat.

What about "I don't know, it just happened"? I still would forgive her. after all, I've made stupid choices myself, and will make them later on.

The trust issue is not affected by the person telling you about it and coming clean at the nearest opportunity?
actually, by coming clean and confessing, it will improve my trust of that person.

"it just happened" is a terrible answer.

isnt that an indication that it will just happen again? hence the discussion. after all, there has to be a reason.

a fantasy of being swept off their feet by a handsome stranger?
the thrill of spontinaity?

maybe even some RPing?

all can be explored with my partner... who knows. but by discussing it, it can be understood and maybe even incorporated into our relationship.

Basically, you wouldn't forgive a cheating partner because you're a gender-stereotyping jerk. Unless they could demonstrate somehow that they are an exception to the rule. Call me a jerk, but this is fact. I'm not even stereotyping, I am citing evolutionary psychology and it's influences upon and implications in modern and developed relationships in societal superstructures.

The research done in this area points toward the fact that the reason women don't 'cheat' as frequently as men is biological, not simply because they are somehow 'better'. Women don't cheat on men, because to do so they require a loss of faith in the providing and progenitative capacities of their partner. Men only require an opportunity and low willpower. Obviously there are superstructual exceptions, and I noted this, but this is something of an underlying template which guides aggregate human behaviour.

If you think social relations and psychology is completely irrespective to gender, and we are instead ultimately rational genderless individuals in ou higher minds; then you are a blind fool (Especially when you consider the intensely sexual bound existence we have as humans).

Wow. That's a lot more straightforward then I would have put it, but it sure sounds right.

Seriously, "Men cheat 'cuz they have no choice and don't really mean to do harm, but women are evil bitches who cheat on you on purpose because they are hateful hags who don't respect you as a man"?

Come on. :rolleyes: Heh heh. *shakes head*

You are a socially mature an engaged dult, you commitment to certain social mores can easily outweigh the niggling of your body's tendencies. If you lose value for said mores, that is when you cheat. Pretty much it is when you want gratification more than you care for whatever reason it is you don't cheat.

Agreed with all that is written there. But women cheat on their partner for exactly the same reasons. It's a myth that women don't have a sex drive just like men do; it's a lie that has been propagated by various religions who sought to control women's sexuality. They have urges just like men do. It's no different for women than it is for men. To generalize that women always have a deeper meaning in their actions while men never do is to do a grave mistake.

I was always one to fight ferociously against double standards.

Unless they could demonstrate somehow that they are an exception to the rule. Call me a jerk, but this is fact. I'm not even stereotyping, I am citing evolutionary psychology and it's influences upon and implications in modern and developed relationships in societal superstructures.

The research done in this area points toward the fact that the reason women don't 'cheat' as frequently as men is biological, not simply because they are somehow 'better'. Women don't cheat on men, because to do so they require a loss of faith in the providing and progenitative capacities of their partner. Men only require an opportunity and low willpower. Obviously there are superstructual exceptions, and I noted this, but this is something of an underlying template which guides aggregate human behaviour.

If you think social relations and psychology is completely irrespective to gender, and we are instead ultimately rational genderless individuals in ou higher minds; then you are a blind fool (Especially when you consider the intensely sexual bound existence we have as humans).

but it seems to me that you are saying that men who cheat cheat because they are cold bastards who dont assign the same value to fidelity that their partner does.

he should be dumped for a man who has a different attitude toward fidelity.

women cheat because there is something wrong with your relationship. if you work on the relationship, she will never cheat again.

she should be forgiven.

I am citing evolutionary psychology
Not exactly the most respected field for a number of valid reasons, one of them being its tendency to promote sexism with tenuous "evidence."

As to the OP, sure i would forgive them. That doesn't necessarily mean the romantic relationship will continue, but I would forgive them.

If you actually love someone, you love them including their faults, so you would forgive them and move on. People make mistakes after all.

Of course if you don't really love someone, but are in love with the idea of being in love with them I could see how this would be an issue.

Not exactly the most respected field for a number of valid reasons, one of them being its tendency to promote sexism with tenuous "evidence."

As to the OP, sure i would forgive them. That doesn't necessarily mean the romantic relationship will continue, but I would forgive them.Ditto.

Depends on the sort of relationship too. But without the confession, it would pretty much be doomed.

Agreed with all that is written there. But women cheat on their partner for exactly the same reasons. I never asserted such. I spoke of underlying biological patterns which would outlay the circumstnces in which a woman would normally cheat, though not the precise reasons. It's a myth that women don't have a sex drive just like men do; Again, never asserted such. All I put forward is that sex drive is not the underlying core of female infidelity. Unlike men, women rarely cheat 'because they felt like it' or because 'they were horny'. it's a lie that has been propagated by various religions who sought to control women's sexuality. They have urges just like men do. It's no different for women than it is for men. To generalize that women always have a deeper meaning in their actions while men never do is to do a grave mistake. For one thing, I explicitly stated that what I was describing were general biological influences, and specifically said there are exceptions. For another, never did I talk about there being a 'deeper meaning' for female infidelity. Both reasons are as deep as each other, one pushes men to procreate generally, the other pushes women to find the best mate.

And, it is different for women than it is for men. Significantly. Are you suggesting that gender is merely an after thought in the psychological and social interactions of two sexually defined individuals?

I was always one to fight ferociously against double standards.Nature has double standards, and you didn't fight so ferociously until Dakini egged you on. Rather, nature doesn't have standards, there just is what there is, it doesn't conveniently fall into the latest popular ethics strata (currently egalitrianism).

but it seems to me that you are saying that men who cheat cheat because they are cold bastards who dont assign the same value to fidelity that their partner does. Then you have taken an incorrect reading. I said men cheat most often on an impulsive basis, guided by millenia of evolutionary psychology which tells them inseminating random fertile females is a good thing. I really didn't touch on their superstructual respect for fidelity, but rather mentioned this underlying fact which is balanced against said respect (which varies from individual to individual, from culture to culture).

he should be dumped for a man who has a different attitude toward fidelity. Certainly.

women cheat because there is something wrong with your relationship. if you work on the relationship, she will never cheat again. Often, agin, you are speaking about the specific superstructual reasons. I am exlaining that for whatever specific reasons a woman may cheat, she will usually first have to lose faith in her partner as either a provider and/or a progenitor. She must feel that he is not the best mate to father her offspring and care for her and said offspring. Thus, given no other dominating superstructural reason for infidelity, feminine infidelity will most often result from a more fundamental schism which must irst be mended (very difficult) or simply abandoned.

she should be forgiven. Perhaps, perhaps not. It really depends on how confident one is that he could reforge himself into something she can instinctively respect and take comfort in. Difficult. Very.

Not exactly the most respected field for a number of valid reasons, one of them being its tendency to promote sexism with tenuous "evidence." Only in such a way evolution fallaciously promotes racism. It first must be hijacked, misconstrued, and then misapplied by those with an overt agenda. In and of itself, it is merely a set of observaions.

As to the OP, sure i would forgive them. That doesn't necessarily mean the romantic relationship will continue, but I would forgive them.Mm, prudence.

Say, you're in a serious relationship with someone, keys have been exchanged, moving in together is imminent, discussions about the common future have been fruitful and you're happy as can be that you're finally settling down with the man/woman/genderqueer person of your dreams.

Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger, has horrible remorse about it and tells you straight away, begging for forgiveness.

Would you be able to forgive? Poll coming.

Edit: And of course, there's an uneditable grammar mistake in the poll. Typical.
Certainly. We'd have to talk it out and figure out why she made the mistake, but I'm hardly going to look down on her for that. We all make mistakes. We all occasionally make bad decisions, and we all have moments of weakness.

Why should I punish her for being human?

Then you have taken an incorrect reading. I said men cheat most often on an impulsive basis, guided by millenia of evolutionary psychology which tells them inseminating random fertile females is a good thing. I really didn't touch on their superstructual respect for fidelity, but rather mentioned this underlying fact which is balanced against said respect (which varies from individual to individual, from culture to culture).



since not all men cheat and not all men who cheat cheat on that basis, such a man should be avoided by any woman (or man) who places a high value on fidelity.



Often, agin, you are speaking about the specific superstructual reasons. I am exlaining that for whatever specific reasons a woman may cheat, she will usually first have to lose faith in her partner as either a provider and/or a progenitor. She must feel that he is not the best mate to father her offspring and care for her and said offspring. Thus, given no other dominating superstructural reason for infidelity, feminine infidelity will most often result from a more fundamental schism which must irst be mended (very difficult) or simply abandoned.

Perhaps, perhaps not. It really depends on how confident one is that he could reforge himself into something she can instinctively respect and take comfort in. Difficult. Very.

if a woman loses faith in the ability of her man to be a good provider or father, she will leave him. you dont get a better provider or father for you children by keeping a loser. it greatly lessens your chances of finding a better man to take his place.

a woman cheats (when she is not cheating for lust which is as often as it is for men) because she is dissatisfied with the relationship she is in but isnt quite willing to leave the man she is with. fix the relationship and she wont cheat.

biologically speaking it is as good for her to cheat as it is for man. she doesnt need the father of her children to support HIS children but to support HER children. if he isnt aware that she has decided on a better evolutionary strategy by having her children fathered by various good candidates, he will support them all as if they were his biological children.

I'd probably be mad for a while, but I might forgive.

since not all men cheat and not all men who cheat cheat on that basis, such a man should be avoided by any woman (or man) who places a high value on fidelity.

if a woman loses faith in the ability of her man to be a good provider or father, she will leave him. you dont get a better provider or father for you children by keeping a loser. it greatly lessens your chances of finding a better man to take his place.

a woman cheats (when she is not cheating for lust which is as often as it is for men) because she is dissatisfied with the relationship she is in but isnt quite willing to leave the man she is with. fix the relationship and she wont cheat. this seems rather one sided. if a man cheats, the women should dump him, but if the woman cheats, then the man has to stay and fix the relationship???

sorry, but a Man can cheat because he's also dissatisfied with the relationship he's in.

biologically speaking it is as good for her to cheat as it is for man. she doesnt need the father of her children to support HIS children but to support HER children. if he isnt aware that she has decided on a better evolutionary strategy by having her children fathered by various good candidates, he will support them all as if they were his biological children. so it's favorable for the woman to not only cheat, but have her lover's children raised by her husband along with the children she has with him? yet if a man cheats she should leave him?

that sounds rather... biased.

In my book there would be nothing to forgive.

Any serious relationship with ME includes the fact that I have an on-going "Same Time Next Year" sort of a thing that is not going to end. So if my partner can deal with that (and they must, or it will simply not work out between us) then I had better be ok with an infidelity on their part, don't you think?

I don't do jealousy. I don't get it and I don't suffer from it. It seems to me that if sleeping with someone else is going to make my partner happy, why shouldn't he? I WANT him to be happy, just as I hope he wants me to be. The only "rules" (such as they are) would be to play safe, don't bring home any diseases or jealous lovers.

this seems rather one sided. if a man cheats, the women should dump him, but if the woman cheats, then the man has to stay and fix the relationship???

sorry, but a Man can cheat because he's also dissatisfied with the relationship he's in.

so it's favorable for the woman to not only cheat, but have her lover's children raised by her husband along with the children she has with him? yet if a man cheats she should leave him?

that sounds rather... biased.

oh this isnt my opinion, its my analysis of what one should do IF i went with the evolutionary biology that GPN was advocating. if you recall HE said that men should be forgiven and women should be tossed out.


"sorry, but a Man can cheat because he's also dissatisfied with the relationship he's in. "

thats why i said that not all men cheat and not all men cheat for that reason that GPN stated. IF a man cheats because he is unable to control himself, i dont see why anyone who values faithfulness would put up with him.

" so it's favorable for the woman to not only cheat, but have her lover's children raised by her husband along with the children she has with him? yet if a man cheats she should leave him? "

this is just a counterpoint to the evolutionary biology crap that says that its beneficial for men to cheat but beneficial for a woman to remain faithful. i would never advocate deception as a good idea in any long term relationship.

What about "I don't know, it just happened"?
I'd respond with the clichéd "So you just tripped, fell on his penis, and decided to lay there for a while?" and end the relationship.
Of all the excuses one can give for doing something (anything, really), that is the lamest.

oh this isnt my opinion, its my analysis of what one should do IF i went with the evolutionary biology that GPN was advocating. if you recall HE said that men should be forgiven and women should be tossed out.


"sorry, but a Man can cheat because he's also dissatisfied with the relationship he's in. "

thats why i said that not all men cheat and not all men cheat for that reason that GPN stated. IF a man cheats because he is unable to control himself, i dont see why anyone who values faithfulness would put up with him.

" so it's favorable for the woman to not only cheat, but have her lover's children raised by her husband along with the children she has with him? yet if a man cheats she should leave him? "

this is just a counterpoint to the evolutionary biology crap that says that its beneficial for men to cheat but beneficial for a woman to remain faithful. i would never advocate deception as a good idea in any long term relationship.

ah, my misunderstanding then.

oh and BTW... while I do believe instinct and biology play a role, humans can effect some form of control, so it's really no excuse for anyone.

I'd respond with the clichéd "So you just tripped, fell on his penis, and decided to lay there for a while?" and end the relationship.
Of all the excuses one can give for doing something (anything, really), that is the lamest.

shouldn't that be...
"So you just tripped, fell on his penis, and made many failed attempts to get up?"

"really officer, I was cleaning my gun and it accidently went off... 15 or 16 times..."

ah, my misunderstanding then.

oh and BTW... while I do believe instinct and biology play a role, humans can effect some form of control, so it's really no excuse for anyone.

we tend to forget how overwhelming lust can be. or we pretend that we are immune.

so we can put ourselves into a situation that will end badly because we think that we will be able to stop before we go too far. and then we end up being unfaithful when we never intended to be.

we tend to forget how overwhelming lust can be. or we pretend that we are immune.

so we can put ourselves into a situation that will end badly because we think that we will be able to stop before we go too far. and then we end up being unfaithful when we never intended to be.

which is why, to me, it's not the act, but the reason behind the act.

a moment of weakness? forgiveable.

A spur of the moment thing? Forgivable.

Doing it to spite me? ...

Well have been in a situation somewhat like what Fass proposed. What ended up happening is we didn't stay together. The trust was broken at a critical time in our relationship. Once the trust was gone the relationship was gone. We parted ways and that was that.

Clearly, she hates herself for it more intensely than anything you could say (or, for that matter, breaking up). It's also clear that she's not going to do anything like this again. So why not be a man and forgive her?

If you have just recently told him about this, he's going to be hurt, mad and possibly feeling foolish, understandably so. And you need to let him go through the emotions. You two very well might be alright once he's had time. But if he has had time (I can't give a time frame here -- only you know what that time is) and is still not wavering, I have to ask....

Did you feel you knew him well enough that you really believed he would forgive you and let it go? Or were you not sure what his reaction would be?

The reason I'm asking this is because... if you weren't sure of how he would take it and you know in your heart that you would never do anything like this to jeopardize your relationship again .... you shouldn't have told him.

Yes, I would. I also would have trust issues afterwards, though, most likely.

And sweetie, have a hug. :/



Edit: Actually, maybe I wouldn't have trust issues, seeing how he chose to tell me about it right away after all.

This is all hypothetical, since I've never been in a serious relationship (though I'm working on getting one).

If she came to me, and was really guilty about it, I would probably forgive her. I'd have trust issues, obviously, but if she's guilty about it, she would probably try to make it up to me.

There is another aspect - the amount of trust I put in my friends. I could very well imagine that whoever she cheated on me with seduced her somehow, and proceed to unleash Righteous Vengeance on said person.

If her guilt seemed false or minor, that would be grounds for breakup/divorce.

I'm getting divorced because my wife cheated on me. There is no forgiving for infidelity. Ever.

I'm getting divorced because my wife cheated on me. There is no forgiving for infidelity. Ever.

What if you were completely wankered out of your mind, and had little control over yourself?

I'd forgive, but that relationship would be over.

It couldn't have been that serious if the partner decided - for whatever reasons or under whichever circumstances - to cheat on me. Being drunk or horny is no excuse, and there is no excuse if you considered the relationship serious and meant for it to have a future.

And telling me straight away would not change a thing. I'd have lost all my trust in them. Once that trust is gone, I wouldn't know what the other person could do to restore it.

So, yes, after some time, when the hurt is gone, I could and would forgive them - but I sincerely doubt that I'd accept them back. If it happens once, I will happen again.

Generally once unfaithful always unfaithful. There are exceptions, especially if the person is young and you are willing to give them 5 years to grow up and prove themselves. Unfaithfulness is a form of spouse abuse and some people just keep going back and keep trying to believe the lies.

What if you were completely wankered out of your mind, and had little control over yourself?

If you are so drunk or high that you can't control who you get into bed with, you have a substance abuse problem.


Commitment is all about self control, if my partner doesn't respect me enough to have the common sense that they shouldn't be sleeping around, they are either stupid or worthless and either way not worth my time and energy.

Say, you're in a serious relationship with someone, keys have been exchanged, moving in together is imminent, discussions about the common future have been fruitful and you're happy as can be that you're finally settling down with the man/woman/genderqueer person of your dreams.

Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger, has horrible remorse about it and tells you straight away, begging for forgiveness.

Would you be able to forgive? Poll coming.

Edit: And of course, there's an uneditable grammar mistake in the poll. Typical.


That is not the type of person I would choose to want a long-term relationship with - particularly a family.

The real kicker wasn't the act - it was the term 'finally' - as if 'settling down' is a bad thing. With that attitude the problem will be a recurring theme.

Then of course there is the whole 'sex with a stranger' which shows incredible moral fiber no matter what your relationship status.


Nope - I would say it is a hopeless case. Move on. Learn from it. Better luck next time.

Sans Amour's Opinion:

I made the mistake and never again. If someone cheats on me, it's over. I feel if a person is not respectful enough to stay with me or tell me they don't care, it's not worth staying with them. It is also why I have determined it is best not to be too attached until it is known that the relationship will endure. But I still wouldn't sleep around or date someone else.

since not all men cheat and not all men who cheat cheat on that basis, such a man should be avoided by any woman (or man) who places a high value on fidelity Being a man, I can say with reasonable understanding that this is in fact why most men cheat, on the occasion that they do. Their bodies are constantly telling them to do it. Once they lose whatever reasons they have for not cheating, or they weaken enough, then they cheat. Some men don't cheat because they are too shy or lack confidence, these once only require a bold female and a bit of alcohol. Others don't cheat because they respect fidelity in principle (christians), these guys will often simply cheat because they want to fuck more than they love jesus. Finally, you have those who don't cheat out of respect and care for the feelings of the partner they choose to share their lives with (crazy, eh?), these guys cheat when said care or respect erodes to such a point that they a quickie with a 'hot random' is a viable option.

Anyhow, the point is, for most me, they can cheat on their partner without there being significant problems in the relationship. To put it simply, a man cheating on his partner can still quite easily 'love' said partner, and consider the incident a simple bad decision.

if a woman loses faith in the ability of her man to be a good provider or father, she will leave him. you dont get a better provider or father for you children by keeping a loser. it greatly lessens your chances of finding a better man to take his place. Unfortunately not all people (least of all women) are this rational and self-commanding.

a woman cheats (when she is not cheating for lust which is as often as it is for men) because she is dissatisfied with the relationship she is in but isnt quite willing to leave the man she is with. fix the relationship and she wont cheat. Obviously, but the damage is much for fundamental in nature, and thus harder to correct. One has to reset the foundations of the relationship, whilst recovering from the still fresh betrayal, and somehow arrange the woman in question to 'fall in love' with you again. IMO it is better just to find someone who loves you for who you are, than to forgo so much self-respect to convince a disinterested partner in your worth.

biologically speaking it is as good for her to cheat as it is for man. she doesnt need the father of her children to support HIS children but to support HER children. if he isnt aware that she has decided on a better evolutionary strategy by having her children fathered by various good candidates, he will support them all as if they were his biological children. Perhaps, but overlooking the obvious complications and dificulties in such a scenario, there still remains the problem that a woman can only have a child every year or so, and it seriously risks her health each time, where as a man is free to impregnate as many women as he can. Women are rationally wired towards finding 1 strong stable and suitable mate (often frejecting planty of 'unsuitable' ones) given this consideration.

Others don't cheat because they respect fidelity in principle (christians), these guys will often simply cheat because they want to fuck more than they love jesus.

Any uttering of the words "cheat", "fuck", and "guys who love Jesus" in the same sentence strikes me as delightfully inappropriate. :D

oh this isnt my opinion, its my analysis of what one should do IF i went with the evolutionary biology that GPN was advocating. if you recall HE said that men should be forgiven and women should be tossed out. No I didn't. I didn't actually say whether you should or shouldn't forgive a man in regard to the frequent rationale behind his infidelity. Nor did I say that women should be 'tossed out', but simply that their kind of infidelity is more often indicative of irreconcilable schisms in the relationship then is male infidelity. I don't think you are deliberately misattributing sexism to me in strawman arguments, though. I think it is just a knee-jerk reaction to what you perceive to be a sexist double standard.


"sorry, but a Man can cheat because he's also dissatisfied with the relationship he's in. "

thats why i said that not all men cheat and not all men cheat for that reason that GPN stated. IF a man cheats because he is unable to control himself, i dont see why anyone who values faithfulness would put up with him. Niether. If one heavily valued fidelity, I don't see why you would put up with infidelity regardless of the reason behind the infidelity in question.

" so it's favorable for the woman to not only cheat, but have her lover's children raised by her husband along with the children she has with him? yet if a man cheats she should leave him? "

this is just a counterpoint to the evolutionary biology crap that says that its beneficial for men to cheat but beneficial for a woman to remain faithful. i would never advocate deception as a good idea in any long term relationship. Again, neither. You seem to think, though, that our bodies give a damn about the specific arrangements of our current superstructual social systems and mores. Biologically, it is beneficial for men to cheat and women to be more or less monogamous. Socially it is not. Biologically it is a good thing for a 40 year old man to impregnate a 14 year old girl. Socially it is not. A lot of things about our society conflict with our underlying behavioural predispositions. Most things do not.

Excellent explanation of the underlying structural reasons that drive cheating behavior, GreaterPacificNations, despite the poor response to it.

In my case, I don't know. It would depend on what happened, how, with who, and what the overlying superstructural reasons for it were. Forgiveness is something I certainly try to preach and follow in my daily life, but that doesn't mean that the relationship would continue, especially over something so emotionally charged. In fact, I would be more likely to forgive a girlfriend cheating on me with someone who means a lot to her than a complete stranger - her cheating on me with someone who has personal meaning to her indicates her preference for the other guy, while her sleeping with a stranger indicates a general level of unhappiness with the relationship. Ironically enough, however, the latter case is probably more likely to result in the relationship continuing, as it indicates a problem that is hopefully fixable. The former situation, however, shows a likely irreparable rift between us, so while we may remain friends (which, again, is questionable), the relationship is likely over.

ah, my misunderstanding then.

oh and BTW... while I do believe instinct and biology play a role, humans can effect some form of control, so it's really no excuse for anyone.
Precisely. I have been flayed alive here because nature isn't PC, and guess what? It plays a role. However, when dealing with a social infraction like cheating, then it is only relevant to ultimately judge the accused socially, not biologically (it is not, however, irrelevant to consider the underlying motivations for said behaviour in the deliberation of such a judgement, so long as said consideration is referential only and not a determinant).

Any uttering of the words "cheat", "fuck", and "guys who love Jesus" in the same sentence strikes me as delightfully inappropriate. :D
I also relish such obscenity.

Excellent explanation of the underlying structural reasons that drive cheating behavior, GreaterPacificNations, despite the poor response to it. *Sigh* Finally, someone lifts me off the coals.

Women are rationally wired towards finding 1 strong stable and suitable mate (often rejecting plenty of 'unsuitable' ones) given this consideration.

Actually through primate observation it has been hypothesized that females will bond with a provider male but may still seek out coupling with more attractive 'breeder' males. in that way they have strong offspring and still a partner to help with the care.

In human behavior the rate of infidelity is split by gender about even depending on the study. That would tend to support the hypothesis that it is not just a 'man' thing.

I forgave my man, but there were a series of very specific circumstances

1. I knew going into the relationship that he has issues saying no. He feels like he has to comfort and protect everyone who comes to him with an issue, and he feels like just because someone wants something, claims to need it, he is obligated to give it to them, especially if the person in question is a woman. There was no deception on this point, I was the one that pointed it out to him

2. The cheating in question was done over the internet and not physically, so it's easier to rationalize it as meaningless, not even real, especially as he and I are fans of fantasy roleplaying online (the cheating in question was not during a roleplaying session, mind, but a prolonged online relationship with another woman who had no idea he and I were engaged)

3. I broke off the engagement, and told him basically if he wants to continue to be in my life he needs to start over from day one and earn my trust again. And he has. It's taken a long, long time, but he's evaluated the situation and realizes it's worth the work it takes to woo me again.

4. What really sank the deal was how utterly miserable he was when he saw how much I'd been hurt. I got the feeling that he honestly didn't realize how much the casual fling would hurt me, even though we'd specifically discussed that as being off-limits. He no longer speaks to the woman - she felt hurt and taken advantage of too, as the entire thing had started when he comforted her after she'd been treated like shit by a man, so he lost her trust as well.

I don't think he'll be repeating it. If he does, that'd be the end of that, because this time it'd be impossible for him not to know how hurtful his actions are. My man is... often like a puppy. He's had a very easy childhood, and he's muddling through the beginnings of his adult life at 23; he's not the kind to whom responsibility and maturity naturally come, but he's not the kind who wants to be immature or free of responsibility, he just isn't anywhere near done growing up yet. We're certainly not getting married until he is done maturing and ready to function on an adult level, but he's not there yet. He works at a video game store, for chrissakes, and spends more hours on video games than his studies. But every now and then I catch promising glimpses, and they're coming more and more frequently, so I'm excited to see what sort of man he'll become.

sorry for the monologue, just wanted to be thorough.

Actually through primate observation it has been hypothesized that females will bond with a provider male but may still seek out coupling with more attractive 'breeder' males. in that way they have strong offspring and still a partner to help with the care. Even considering this, you still have the fact that each pregnancy takes a female out for 9 months and seriously risks her health, leading her to bond with at least a primary provider/protector.

In human behavior the rate of infidelity is split by gender about even depending on the study. That would tend to support the hypothesis that it is not just a 'man' thing. I find that hard to believe, simply given the endemic male cheating everywhere in my society. Anyhow, I never posited that cheating was a 'male' thing, but simply the reasons behind it are different, thus accounting for the higher predisposition in males to cheat.

I find that hard to believe, simply given the endemic male cheating everywhere in my society. Anyhow, I never posited that cheating was a 'male' thing, but simply the reasons behind it are different, thus accounting for the higher predisposition in males to cheat.
Actually, I recall hearing about much the same thing, that is to say that cheating was equally present in both males and females.

It's WHEN the cheating occured that was different; males tended to cheat in their younger years, while women tended to cheat more when they reached late adulthood.

Edit: Yeah, I know, no sources. I'm trying to fish up whatever I can from teh interwebs to support this factoid.

Say, you're in a serious relationship with someone, keys have been exchanged, moving in together is imminent, discussions about the common future have been fruitful and you're happy as can be that you're finally settling down with the man/woman/genderqueer person of your dreams.

Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger, has horrible remorse about it and tells you straight away, begging for forgiveness.

Would you be able to forgive? Poll coming.

Edit: And of course, there's an uneditable grammar mistake in the poll. Typical.

Now, I could come in here with a crass and patronising comment of the ilk you normally come out with to people, but that wouldn't be like me, and perhaps rather unfair towards someone who seems genuinely on the edge of an emotional precipice.

However, I can't see much hope in your relationship's future sadly. Despite your honesty about it, the reason behind it really isn't going to cut it, the trust has been lost. You may remain friends, but I wouldn't count on him coming back to you.

If they could tell me the truth and fess up in time I would be able to forgive them. Indescretions happen and it is not like the two of us had made an actual promise to remain manogamous. If they were truthful and sorry for what they did I could forgive them but not forget and may have some trust issues for a time.

If they lie to me about it like has happened to me in the past I can never forgive or trust them again.

Forgiveness might be possible eventually, but I would certainly put off plans to move in with them for a while.


Well said.....As a Christian I would forgive them, but forgetting may be a different situation.

Even considering this, you still have the fact that each pregnancy takes a female out for 9 months and seriously risks her health, leading her to bond with at least a primary provider/protector.
Which is why the observer hypothesized that the females would chose to BOND with a supportive male - yet because they do take risks and time they also want the strongest offspring - even if that male has traits that would make him an undesirable parental partner.

I find that hard to believe, simply given the endemic male cheating everywhere in my society. Anyhow, I never posited that cheating was a 'male' thing, but simply the reasons behind it are different, thus accounting for the higher predisposition in males to cheat.
Too bad for you - sounds like you need a new peer group - not to suggest you start hangin with the 'lyin eyes' type. The evidence is what it is.

Would you be able to forgive? Poll coming.

You made an error much more subtantial than the grammar one in your poll; despite all you know about what's good and proper, you didn't make it multiple choice, thus depriving me of my chance to vote for potential forgiveness AND admission to emotional crippledom.

As already hinted at, yes, I could forgive, although I'd demand some different/better reasons than the one you've been willing to give, and it'd depend on those, too.

As several other people also said, I would, however, not be able to forget, and there'd be quite some "trust issues", but I don't think I would - heck, could - give up a relationship with someone I love because of this - not if they, as it were, confessed to it right afterwards.


He didn't.

I'm terribly sorry about this. I know he's had a bit of time to think about it now, but I'll still hope he'll come to think differently of it once some more real time has passed.


[...]So in a nutshell, Men cheat because their body tells them to, women cheat because they are dissatisfied with their current partner in a grander and more significant sense.[...]


I'll abstain from a more detailed critique because a) others have been quicker than me and b) I think that discussion far derails this thread, but I'd just like ot add my "Oh Jesses, what utter bullshit" coin to the pool.

... if you weren't sure of how he would take it and you know in your heart that you would never do anything like this to jeopardize your relationship again .... you shouldn't have told him.

What you're saying is " ..then you shouldn't have told him, pragmatics-wise, because it'd risk your relationship in a way that might not have been immediately necessary in a practical sense", but you're forgetting " .. then you still should have told him because that is the fair and morally/ethically right thing to do", or " .. then you still should have told him lest you'd have felt like an utter pig and downright despicable person every second you'd be with him from then on, knowing you're doing somethign you feel isn't right".

Edit: Actually, maybe I wouldn't have trust issues, seeing how he chose to tell me about it right away after all.

Oh, I mightn't have trust issues in the meaning of "Oh, I'd never know whether they've been faithful these last days" because I might be sure they'd always tell me afterwards, but that still doesn't mean I could be any surer that they aren't right now having a go at it with someone.

Friend of mine has been with a guy you'd consider to be the best Bilderbuchmärchenprinz ever, the kind you'd never think would cheat, and the most honest man who ever roamed the surface of the earth, so to speak. He cheated on her, he crawled back remorsefully the day after; she was able to forgive and they even went as far as to make an agreement that they wouldn't want anyone to go through the pain she had have to because of it, so they'd, you know, send an SMS or something right before they were about to "cheat" and end the relationship, or ask for a Beziehungspause, or something along those lines. Well, half a year later he did it again (the cheating plus the telling right after the deed, that is), I guess I needn't add they broke up.

Which is why the observer hypothesized that the females would chose to BOND with a supportive male - yet because they do take risks and time they also want the strongest offspring - even if that male has traits that would make him an undesirable parental partner.

I have to agree. There has been studies of previously thought "monogamous" birds that have high rates of infidelity. There's also the the fact that in humans its not obvious when a woman is fertile, unlike most other primates and mammals, and they're receptive to sex at any time. One could say that this is a stealthy way to hide cheating and protect offspring.

first of all, *gives fass a big ol' hug*

second of all, I've been cheated on. It sucks, and I have and have not forgiven it. Usually, I forgave it if it seemed like it was a lapse of judgement, that kinda thing. If it seemed to be constant, then no.
Give him time and space...don't abandon him, but don't cling to him...he needs space to work this out. Maybe he hasn't forgiven you yet, but that doesn't mean he never will. Let him know at the very least, you want a friendship with him (assuming that is true). Beyond that, he needs time.

*gives fass another hug*
*sings "Lullaby" by Shawn Mullins*

Say, you're in a serious relationship with someone, keys have been exchanged, moving in together is imminent, discussions about the common future have been fruitful and you're happy as can be that you're finally settling down with the man/woman/genderqueer person of your dreams.

Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger, has horrible remorse about it and tells you straight away, begging for forgiveness.

Would you be able to forgive? Poll coming.

Edit: And of course, there's an uneditable grammar mistake in the poll. Typical.

It depends. If it strikes me as a single, isolated event, I'd probably forgive, but not forget.

If it's pattern offense, fuck 'em.

first of all, *gives fass a big ol' hug*
*gives fass another hug*
*sings "Lullaby" by Shawn Mullins*

:)

:)

So was this infidelity something you perpetrated? Or your partner? Out of curiosity.

:)

I couldn't pick between that, Ooh Child by the Wondermints/The Five Stairsteps or Tomorrow from Annie...I hope I made the right choice :)

:)

I was gonna fluffle you earlier when I first answered, but I figured it would make your day worse, so I didn't, out of respect and also so you didn't get Christian cooties.

My thoughts:

Free love baby yeah, groovy!

So was this infidelity something you perpetrated? Or your partner? Out of curiosity.

Me.

I couldn't pick between that, Ooh Child by the Wondermints/The Five Stairsteps or Tomorrow from Annie...I hope I made the right choice :)

I am apparently not picky, so... ;) Shit, I have to get to laugh at it. I just do.

I was gonna fluffle you earlier when I first answered, but I figured it would make your day worse, so I didn't, out of respect and also so you didn't get Christian cooties.

Don't worry, religionism isn't contagious through that route.

Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger...
Would you be able to forgive? To be honest... I dont know.

I ve seen boys/girls react with huge amounts of passion to infidelity.

Its like they become someone else for a few moments.

I am apparently not picky, so... ;) Shit, I have to get to laugh at it. I just do.


Ah yes...the old "I laugh out loud because it's the one thing I haven't been trying" method...Works great for me.

I have to run, but feel free to hit me up if you wish. your choice of method.

I have to run, but feel free to hit me up if you wish. your choice of method.

You're a doll, you know that? But I won't be bothering you - I'm no fun like this, so better to spare people.

Me.

How has your partner handled it? One-time thing or repeat offense?

How has your partner handled it? One-time thing or repeat offense?

Read the thread, please. It's been dealt with already. One-time thing, he wasn't forgiving. There, now we can stop talking about this.

Read the thread, please. It's been dealt with already. One-time thing, he wasn't forgiving. There, now we can stop talking about this.

Sorry, I can imagine this would be painful for you. If I wasn't coming back and forth from my room and being bent over the toilet, I'd probably have spared you that.

Sucks :(

Honestly, I don't know. I really don't.


I mean, I could say what I would think I would do, and what I hope I would do. But what I really would do if faced with such a situation... I just cannot say. At all.


And sorry to hear about it.

I have to agree. There has been studies of previously thought "monogamous" birds that have high rates of infidelity. There's also the the fact that in humans its not obvious when a woman is fertile, unlike most other primates and mammals, and they're receptive to sex at any time. One could say that this is a stealthy way to hide cheating and protect offspring.

You gotta tell me where you hang out!

Yeah, I'd most likely forgive eventually, but it would delay serious plans for a while (moving in etc). If said person came clean before I found out from anyone else and realised it was a stupid mistake, then ok.

If it happened again though, that's it. Once, I can probably forgive. Twice and it's taking the piss.

I'm getting divorced because my wife cheated on me. There is no forgiving for infidelity. Ever.

I'm sorry to hear that. When it comes to matters of the heart, it is a very complicated situation. And someone outside of it can't really understand. So.. I don't know if you are heartless or if you are just someone that realizes that this certain person is no damn good. So with that. .. I wish you both peace of mind.

Maybe in a specific situation I could forgive (in the remaining in the relationship way), but probably not.

Fass, I would tell you that you were an idiot, but you've obviously figured that one out on your own and feel very bad about it, so I give you huggles instead. I won't start asking about your reason because, well, you don't know me and you don't need online analysis. However, you really should search yourself for a reason, because there is one somewhere in your subconscious (for humans, nothing "just happens"), and you should attend to it. Wait until you're feeling a little better / up to it, though.
Besides, he might be more willing to forgive you if he knew that you went to a lot of trouble to try to figure out what happened to make you cheat and then fixed (or at least tried to fix, if it ends up being a single circumstance and therefore can't be fixed) it...

There is another side to this, and I admit I've only skimmed many posts but...

If you've cheated on someone, and if they take you back, understand that this is something they hold over you for the rest of the relationship.

It means that when you get into a heated argument, they hold the final straw in that they can always say 'well at least I didn't cheat on you' - and that can go on and on, it's always there.

Cheating happens but it can be as destructive for the one who cheated as the one who was cheated on. It places the relationship on an uneven level so, insofar as I've ever given advice, it's often been to the cheater and I've always thought that they give away too much out of guilt and therefore lose any balance in the relationship.

Say, you're in a serious relationship with someone, keys have been exchanged, moving in together is imminent, discussions about the common future have been fruitful and you're happy as can be that you're finally settling down with the man/woman/genderqueer person of your dreams.

Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger, has horrible remorse about it and tells you straight away, begging for forgiveness.

Would you be able to forgive? Poll coming.

Edit: And of course, there's an uneditable grammar mistake in the poll. Typical.

Oooh, tough question.

While I'd like to say I'd be able to forgive and not let a mistake get in the way, I am by nature very emotional and irrational, and I tend to hold grudges. But then I also value fairness and accept that nobody's perfect.

I honestly don't know, as I've never been cheated on, to my knowledge. I wish I could say for sure what I'd do in the situation you describe, but I just can't.

Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger, has horrible remorse about it and tells you straight away, begging for forgiveness.


well from this alone i would say i could forgive, but any chance of continuing the relationship is gone. reasons:

1. by momentarily stupid do you mean drunk? either way its just an excuse.

2. if they are able to have "meaningless, anonymous sex" with someone i would say they lack self control and there is nothing to stop them from doing it again

3. they will only continue to have "horrible remorse" until the opportunity comes up again.

You're a doll, you know that? But I won't be bothering you - I'm no fun like this, so better to spare people.

haha...well, take this as an open invite. Contact me whenever, for whatever reason, by your choice of methods. Sound like a good deal?

And don't consider it bothering. Trust me, you are much more level headed than most I get the pleasure of dealing with daily)

Say, you're in a serious relationship with someone, keys have been exchanged, moving in together is imminent, discussions about the common future have been fruitful and you're happy as can be that you're finally settling down with the man/woman/genderqueer person of your dreams.

Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger, has horrible remorse about it and tells you straight away, begging for forgiveness.

Would you be able to forgive? Poll coming.

Edit: And of course, there's an uneditable grammar mistake in the poll. Typical.

If there was a lie involved, and deception, then no, I couldn't forgive.

If we had discussed it in advance, and I was there participating, then it isn't a problem.

If there was a lie involved, and deception, then no, I couldn't forgive.

If we had discussed it in advance, and I was there participating, then it isn't a problem.

With a video camera? :D

Say, you're in a serious relationship with someone, keys have been exchanged, moving in together is imminent, discussions about the common future have been fruitful and you're happy as can be that you're finally settling down with the man/woman/genderqueer person of your dreams.

Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger, has horrible remorse about it and tells you straight away, begging for forgiveness.

Would you be able to forgive? Poll coming.

Edit: And of course, there's an uneditable grammar mistake in the poll. Typical.

No sex is meaningless.

I don't know what I'd do, I'd like to say yeah of course I can forgive, I don't know though.

You gotta tell me where you hang out!

Perhaps Its only with myself that that is true. :p

With a video camera? :D

We prefer still pics.

We prefer still pics.

To each his or her own.

i'd say it depends on how much you really love the person

but probably yes, forgive, especially because the person came back to you and regretted doing someone else. because if you don't, you will have wasted a lot of time with him/her

Say, you're in a serious relationship with someone, keys have been exchanged, moving in together is imminent, discussions about the common future have been fruitful and you're happy as can be that you're finally settling down with the man/woman/genderqueer person of your dreams.

Your at the peak of a relationship and the other is already cheating, what would it be in 1-2 years when routine start to kick in.

I could'nt see myself with someone that "monumentally stupid".

Some years ago some co-workers and I were having a discussion about wich would be easier for us to forgive (totally female group). A man beating us or cheating sexually. I was the only one who picked cheating. They all said they'd find it easier to forgive a man for beating on them. Nutcases. I could forgive cheating. A man hits me and he may never get a chance to ask for forgiveness.

Some years ago some co-workers and I were having a discussion about wich would be easier for us to forgive (totally female group). A man beating us or cheating sexually. I was the only one who picked cheating. They all said they'd find it easier to forgive a man for beating on them. Nutcases. I could forgive cheating. A man hits me and he may never get a chance to ask for forgiveness.

QFT

I would forgive but continuing the relationship would hinge upon the following conditions:

1)Moving in together is on indefinite hold. I would need time to cope and get over it.

2)STD test on her part.

3)She would need to go to some kind of counselling. I've been to counselling like that myself and I can tell you it's VERY valuable. One thing I learned in there: These things NEVER "just happen." It may not be planned per se, but there's always warning signs and a sort of lead-up to it. A good string of counselling sessions would help discover the real reasons and teach ways to avoid it in the future.

4)We keep it between us. It's nobody else's business.

There is another side to this, and I admit I've only skimmed many posts but...

If you've cheated on someone, and if they take you back, understand that this is something they hold over you for the rest of the relationship.

It means that when you get into a heated argument, they hold the final straw in that they can always say 'well at least I didn't cheat on you' - and that can go on and on, it's always there.

Cheating happens but it can be as destructive for the one who cheated as the one who was cheated on. It places the relationship on an uneven level so, insofar as I've ever given advice, it's often been to the cheater and I've always thought that they give away too much out of guilt and therefore lose any balance in the relationship.

This is generally true, which is why if the couple is to repair the relationship that sort of stuff must be nipped in the bud.

When I was young and idiotic, I made exactly this sort of mistake. We worked past it and for a lot of years things seemed to be fine, because she rarely ever did throw it in my face during an argument. The problem was far more insidious...

What was really happening is she was using my guilt as a way to control me. She wanted me to be the one and only bread winner, and knowing how desperate I was to please her, insisted that even if she did work, her money ought to be for her own pleasure, not the family accounts. Whenever we disagreed on how to manage things, she typically got her way because deep down my desire to "make it up to her" outweighed just about everything else, and while I won't say she was consciously aware of it (or maybe she was) I will say that sub-consciously she learned that it's good to be a victim (in a case like this).

Ultimately, what ended our marriage was the fact that while I was willing to go to the ends of the earth to make things better for her, she was unwilling to be flexible on items that were for my happiness, and so that was that.

But I'm convinced the pattern was set all those years ago when I screwed up and was never truly forgiven for it.

It would take time, but I would forgive.

Say, you're in a serious relationship with someone, keys have been exchanged, moving in together is imminent, discussions about the common future have been fruitful and you're happy as can be that you're finally settling down with the man/woman/genderqueer person of your dreams.

No problem imagining that, for me! I've been living with my partner for the last year, and we've been together for five years or so.


Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger, has horrible remorse about it and tells you straight away, begging for forgiveness.

Sure, I'd forgive him. But I'd still break up with him.

I'm not interested in being in a committed relationship with a person who is in the mood for meaningless anonymous sex with strangers while supposedly in a committed relationship. That shows both a disregard for one's commitments and also a taste in sex partners that I find lame. (Sex with a person without even knowing their name?)

I would still be friends with my partner, I think, because of the type of bond we have. I'd probably still be interested in having sex with him, after he got tested and confirmed he was still clean of STDs. But I wouldn't want to be his partner any more.

Some years ago some co-workers and I were having a discussion about wich would be easier for us to forgive (totally female group). A man beating us or cheating sexually. I was the only one who picked cheating. They all said they'd find it easier to forgive a man for beating on them. Nutcases. I could forgive cheating. A man hits me and he may never get a chance to ask for forgiveness.
Wow.That's fucking scary.

Wow, what a scary and entirely outdated concept of sex....

It's also interesting how the terms "cheating" and "having sex with someone else" are so seemingly interchangeable. Sure I'd be upset if a partner truly cheated on me, but I am hardly the type to consider mere sex with another person to be cheating.

Wow.That's fucking scary.

That she'd kill the son of a bitch or that all her friends would forgive being beaten?

Basically, you wouldn't forgive a cheating partner because you're a gender-stereotyping jerk.
Yeah, don't you love that there are still boys who cling to that old debunked tripe about how men are genetically wired to cheat?

Assertion: Hetero Man has X sex partners, on average. Hetero Woman has Y sex partners, on average. X > Y.

Hmm. Let's think about what that must mean, shall we?

1) Hetero Man is having a lot of sex with other men.
2) Hetero Man is raping a lot of women, and is counting his victims as "sex partners."
3) The assertion that X > Y is pure bunk, and Hetero Woman is having just as many sex partners as Hetero Man.

So remember, lads: when you try to claim that you cheat because you're "wired" for many sex partners, but girls aren't "wired" that way, you're either 1) admitting you're having lots of gay sex, 2) admitting you're a rapist, or 3) admitting that you're having sex WITH OTHER WOMEN, and therefore your initial assertion is bunk.

That she'd kill the son of a bitch or that all her friends would forgive being beaten?

Well, I meant the latter, but it goes for the former, too, obviously. :p

Whilst I'd love to say yes, and indeed used to, the last time it happened to me I completely lost my nerve (keep in mind this was my ex being caught in the act, instead of telling me what happened).

So I voted 'no', because sometimes I don't, really.

So remember, lads: when you try to claim that you cheat because you're "wired" for many sex partners, but girls aren't "wired" that way, you're either 1) admitting you're having lots of gay sex, 2) admitting you're a rapist, or 3) admitting that you're having sex WITH OTHER WOMEN, and therefore your initial assertion is bunk.
Well, clearly the women who have more sex partners than men only do it because they think it will make him love her and she has such low self esteem that this is the only way she thinks this will happen and no men want to form actual relationships with these women because they are like the village bicycle. And clearly women don't want to have sex outside a relationship because they don't actually enjoy it and only do it to please their partners.

If we had discussed it in advance, and I was there participating, then it isn't a problem.

...you could forgive if you knew in advance and you were there participating?

You're a strange one.

Well, clearly the women who have more sex partners than men only do it because they think it will make him love her and she has such low self esteem that this is the only way she thinks this will happen and no men want to form actual relationships with these women because they are like the village bicycle. And clearly women don't want to have sex outside a relationship because they don't actually enjoy it and only do it to please their partners.
Doesn't it creep you out to know that there are HETEROSEXUAL men who actually believe that?

What does that say about them? They're willing (even eager) to have sex with not just one, but many individuals who, in their belief, don't actually want to have sex with them. They're eager to have sex with individuals who they are quite sure will not enjoy it.

And these are the same dudes who will yell "SLUT" at any woman who is honest about the fact that she enjoys sex because it gives her personal pleasure. It's like they actively want to discourage women from enjoying sex by shaming any woman who does, yet they also want women to continue putting out for them.

Yuck.

Oh well. I think it really says something about the power of the female sex drive, that after centuries of this "women don't like fucking" bullshit, and after all the anti-sex messages women get, we STILL show sex drives as active as men. Imagine what we'd be like if all the virgin-whore crap was done away with!

Tomorrow from Annie...I hope I made the right choice :)
Sarkhaan, we're trying to cheer Fass up, not torture him. ;)

I would probably forgive, but then again I am very stupid that way.

When I had a similar situation though, it took me about a year to recover from it and while I did forgive her, our friendship was strained and has been since then.

I also have never forgotten.

Being a man, I can say with reasonable understanding that this is in fact why most men cheat, on the occasion that they do. Their bodies are constantly telling them to do it. Once they lose whatever reasons they have for not cheating, or they weaken enough, then they cheat. Some men don't cheat because they are too shy or lack confidence, these once only require a bold female and a bit of alcohol. Others don't cheat because they respect fidelity in principle (christians), these guys will often simply cheat because they want to fuck more than they love jesus. Finally, you have those who don't cheat out of respect and care for the feelings of the partner they choose to share their lives with (crazy, eh?), these guys cheat when said care or respect erodes to such a point that they a quickie with a 'hot random' is a viable option.

Anyhow, the point is, for most me, they can cheat on their partner without there being significant problems in the relationship. To put it simply, a man cheating on his partner can still quite easily 'love' said partner, and consider the incident a simple bad decision.

Unfortunately not all people (least of all women) are this rational and self-commanding.

Obviously, but the damage is much for fundamental in nature, and thus harder to correct. One has to reset the foundations of the relationship, whilst recovering from the still fresh betrayal, and somehow arrange the woman in question to 'fall in love' with you again. IMO it is better just to find someone who loves you for who you are, than to forgo so much self-respect to convince a disinterested partner in your worth.

Perhaps, but overlooking the obvious complications and dificulties in such a scenario, there still remains the problem that a woman can only have a child every year or so, and it seriously risks her health each time, where as a man is free to impregnate as many women as he can. Women are rationally wired towards finding 1 strong stable and suitable mate (often frejecting planty of 'unsuitable' ones) given this consideration.

I'm rolling around laughing at this, its so hard to write a serious response. /hug GPN, hope the real world doesn't come as too much of a shock :)

I'm rolling around laughing at this, its so hard to write a serious response. /hug GPN, hope the real world doesn't come as too much of a shock :)
Hope he never reads up on biology, either, because he's far too entertaining right now. I'd hate to see annoying little things like facts pop his bubble...

:D

1) Hetero Man is having a lot of sex with other men.
2) Hetero Man is raping a lot of women, and is counting his victims as "sex partners."
3) The assertion that X > Y is pure bunk, and Hetero Woman is having just as many sex partners as Hetero Man.

Hahaha, I'm going to write this down for future use, I know too many men who still think like that.

They obviously don't have unyielding love for you if they do something like that.. so you'd be best off without them.


I doubt I'd be able to forgive.

Hehe, personally I voted for the third option, but if any betrayed spouse would like to have their cheating spouse beaten up to remind them of the virtues of fidelity, please contact the nearest Araraukarian consulate. :D

Wow, what a scary and entirely outdated concept of sex....

It's also interesting how the terms "cheating" and "having sex with someone else" are so seemingly interchangeable. Sure I'd be upset if a partner truly cheated on me, but I am hardly the type to consider mere sex with another person to be cheating.how is it at all outdated? If you are in a monogamous relationship, it is expected that both will remain faithful. Not doing that is a huge breach of trust, as that is one of the foundations of a monogamous relationship

Sarkhaan, we're trying to cheer Fass up, not torture him. ;)
*cradles NERVUN*
*Sings Tomorrow*
:)

Doesn't it creep you out to know that there are HETEROSEXUAL men who actually believe that?

To be fair, there are quite a few homosexual men who believe that

To be fair, there are quite a few homosexual men who believe that
The reason it is creepy for a hetero man to view women in that manner is because the hetero man is most likely going to try to have sex with women at some point.

If a heterosexual man thinks all women hate sex, but he wants to make them have sex anyhow because he thinks it's fun to have sex even if his partner doesn't enjoy it at all, I find that deeply creepy.

Sarkhaan, we're trying to cheer Fass up, not torture him. ;)
Speak for yourself, I have no part in "we". :p

The reason it is creepy for a hetero man to view women in that manner is because the hetero man is most likely going to try to have sex with women at some point.

If a heterosexual man thinks all women hate sex, but he wants to make them have sex anyhow because he thinks it's fun to have sex even if his partner doesn't enjoy it at all, I find that deeply creepy.

1. Not all heterosexual women enjoy sex. In fact, some of them hate it.
2. It's possible to marry someone like this, who will pretend to like it because they know that's one of the things a heterosexual man looks for in a long term relationship - sex with his wife.
3. It sucks to have sex with someone who hates it - in fact, it's not even worth trying.
4. Once she shuts it off, he has a few choices:
a. Beat off forever (which usually pisses off the woman who hates sex)
b. Cheat
c. Divorce

But.. more to the OP

Infidelity is OK in my book as long as there's honest communication about it BEFOREHAND and as long as safe sex is practiced.

If it's a lie and a secret, it's the equivalent of playing Russian Roulette, except that you have no idea the gun is pointed at your head.

how is it at all outdated? If you are in a monogamous relationship, it is expected that both will remain faithful. Not doing that is a huge breach of trust, as that is one of the foundations of a monogamous relationship


It is outdated because monobamous relationsihps are outdated. or rather, the idea that if you love someone you should refrain from sex (not intimicy, not emotional connection, even just sex) with others, and that if you do have sex (again, not intimicy or emotional connections, just sex) that somehow this is a betrayal.

It's outdated, and also rather self propogating.

It is outdated because monobamous relationsihps are outdated. or rather, the idea that if you love someone you should refrain from sex (not intimicy, not emotional connection, even just sex) with others, and that if you do have sex (again, not intimicy or emotional connections, just sex) that somehow this is a betrayal.

It's outdated, and also rather self propogating.
I wouldn't say it's outdated for a given couple to decide that they want to have a monogamous relationship. To each their own.

What's outdated is assuming that this particular formula will (or should) work for every couple out there.

1. Not all heterosexual women enjoy sex. In fact, some of them hate it.
2. It's possible to marry someone like this, who will pretend to like it because they know that's one of the things a heterosexual man looks for in a long term relationship - sex with his wife.
3. It sucks to have sex with someone who hates it - in fact, it's not even worth trying.
4. Once she shuts it off, he has a few choices:
a. Beat off forever (which usually pisses off the woman who hates sex)
b. Cheat
c. Divorce

All potentially true.

And I find it deeply creepy/lame for a man to select any option other than C.

Of course, I also find it deeply fucked up to imagine a man who is that incapable of telling whether or not his partner is having a good time. I know there's all kinds of bullshit stories about women faking it well enough to impress the Academy, but if you've been together long enough to be getting married then you should be a lot more in tune with your partner. If you get married before reaching that level of connection, then it's your own damn fault if it turns out that you and your partner aren't a good fit.


But.. more to the OP

Infidelity is OK in my book as long as there's honest communication about it BEFOREHAND and as long as safe sex is practiced.

If it's a lie and a secret, it's the equivalent of playing Russian Roulette, except that you have no idea the gun is pointed at your head.
This much I agree with.

I don't have a problem with promiscuity, in and of itself. I don't have a problem with "open" relationships. I've had a few, and they can be just fine.

What I have a problem with is deception. Especially about something as potentially serious as sex. If my partner cheats on me sexually, he's not just betraying my trust...he's also putting me physically at risk.

If I choose to take a risk, that's fine. If my partner and I agree to take risks together, that's fine. But I don't think it's fine for one partner to put the other partner at risk without so much as asking their opinion.

I wouldn't say it's outdated for a given couple to decide that they want to have a monogamous relationship. To each their own.

What's outdated is assuming that this particular formula will (or should) work for every couple out there.

I think the belief of pure monogamy, which is to say that if (or she) has sex with someone (note, i say sex with someone, not intimicy, not extramarital reltionships, not lying, just the physical act of sex) is a betrayal of trust, is an outdated belief.

Now sure, people are free to believe in it, but I find it outdated. And you've discussed religious views in very similar terms on this forum many times Bottle, I fail to see how this is different.

are they free to believe that? yes. Do I think it's a generally good idea to hold such a rigid belief? No. I think it's silly, to equate a physical act of sex to an emotional betrayal.

... he wants to make them have sex anyhow because he thinks it's fun to have sex even if his partner doesn't enjoy it at all, I find that deeply creepy.If there is any Male or Female who do not enjoy sex.. they should be together.. the 2 of them. (yes I know there is probably more than 2 :-)

I think the belief of pure monogamy, which is to say that if (or she) has sex with someone (note, i say sex with someone, not intimicy, not extramarital reltionships, not lying, just the physical act of sex) is a betrayal of trust, is an outdated belief.

Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly. What do you mean by "out-dated"?

You seem to be saying that you think it's "outdated" for people to view it as a betrayal of trust if their partner has sex with somebody else. Given that a lot of people have relationships in which monogamy is the agreed-upon system, how is it "outdated" to view it as a betrayal of trust when your partner violates your agreed upon system? Why is it "outdated" to feel betrayed when your partner deceives you or goes back on their word?

Or are you saying it's "outdated" to have that particular standard in the first place? I don't really see how that can be true, since lifetime monogamy between two people is actually a relatively unusual state of affairs across human history.

There are also many pragmatic reasons why a couple might choose to be sexually monogamous, and many pragmatic reasons why an individual would have reason to be pissed if their partner were fucking around behind their back.

It also seems like you're touching on the topic of "emotional" cheating versus "physical" cheating. You seem to think that emotional cheating should be regarded as more serious than physical cheating. Personally, I don't see why either is acceptable. CHEATING is cheating. It's a betrayal, by definition. It's unacceptable no matter what form it takes.


Now sure, people are free to believe in it, but I find it outdated. And you've discussed religious views in very similar terms on this forum many times Bottle, I fail to see how this is different.

I'm afraid you've lost me. What do religious views have to do with this?

My parents are not, and have never been, religious, yet they have chosen to be a monogamous couple for over half their lifetimes at this point. I assure you, they are not traditionalists. They do not have sex-shame issues. Indeed, I don't think I could imagine either of my parents doing something simply because that's the way it was done back in the day. If anything, they'd do the opposite, just to try something new.

I think what's outdated is the idea that there is a single formula that all human relationships should follow.


are they free to believe that? yes. Do I think it's a generally good idea to hold such a rigid belief? No. I think it's silly, to equate a physical act of sex to an emotional betrayal.
Why is that silly? If my partner and I have an agreement about something, and he violates that agreement, why shouldn't I feel betrayed?

When my partner and I had an open relationship, I would not feel betrayed if he had another partner. This was because his act of having sex with somebody else did not violate any agreement between us. He was not breaking trust with me.

Right now, we are monogamous. This is our agreement. If he had sex with somebody else, he would be betraying my trust and violating our agreement.

If my partner wished to have an open relationship again, the appropriate course would be to talk with me about it. Just like any other agreement in our relationship.

1. Not all heterosexual women enjoy sex. In fact, some of them hate it.
2. It's possible to marry someone like this, who will pretend to like it because they know that's one of the things a heterosexual man looks for in a long term relationship - sex with his wife.
3. It sucks to have sex with someone who hates it - in fact, it's not even worth trying.
4. Once she shuts it off, he has a few choices:
a. Beat off forever (which usually pisses off the woman who hates sex)
b. Cheat
c. Divorce

But.. more to the OP

Infidelity is OK in my book as long as there's honest communication about it BEFOREHAND and as long as safe sex is practiced.I prefer Divorce to Infidelity.

The reason it is creepy for a hetero man to view women in that manner is because the hetero man is most likely going to try to have sex with women at some point.

If a heterosexual man thinks all women hate sex, but he wants to make them have sex anyhow because he thinks it's fun to have sex even if his partner doesn't enjoy it at all, I find that deeply creepy.Oh, no question. Those tend to be the guys who are doing it wrong tho ;)

It is outdated because monobamous relationsihps are outdated. or rather, the idea that if you love someone you should refrain from sex (not intimicy, not emotional connection, even just sex) with others, and that if you do have sex (again, not intimicy or emotional connections, just sex) that somehow this is a betrayal.

It's outdated, and also rather self propogating.
Monogamy is not outdated any more than any other form of relationship. Forcing one paradigm onto all people, however, is.
If I am in a comitted relationship and we agree to be exclusive to each other, that means we are exclusive. If we agree to only sleep with eachother, then we only sleep with each other. That simple. Anything outside of that is a betrayal of our agreement (whether it is explicit or implicit)
Clearly, as the person in question felt guilty about it, it broke that agreement in his mind. And, equally clearly, as the other person involved has yet to forgive, it also broke in his mind.


I think the belief of pure monogamy, which is to say that if (or she) has sex with someone (note, i say sex with someone, not intimicy, not extramarital reltionships, not lying, just the physical act of sex) is a betrayal of trust, is an outdated belief.if it is behind the back of the other person, it is a breach of trust. If you go to them and they say they are uncomfortable with it, you should either a) respect that or b) get out of the relationship.


are they free to believe that? yes. Do I think it's a generally good idea to hold such a rigid belief? No. I think it's silly, to equate a physical act of sex to an emotional betrayal.
If both people agree to be exclusive to each other, then it is a betrayal of emotions.

I think it's silly, to equate a physical act of sex to an emotional betrayal.

I believe you have failed to grasp the main point here. Most people here do NOT equal the physical act to emotional betrayal IFF such physical acts have been declared 'okay' beforehand. What has been declared an emotional betrayal is the violation of the, probably emotionally founded, agreement not to engage in said physical act. It is absolutely not about what exactly has been done, but about the fact that doing it has violated prior agreements and trust.

In order to illustrate the point more colorfully: If I, for some obscure reason better not be brought into the light of public discussion, place emotional value on the status that my partner please never use forks for eating with, and we make the agreement that they will refrain from that and I trust them to stick with it, and they then go and use a fork some time later, it'd be an emotional betrayal - not because eating with forks in and of itself constitutes an emotional betrayal per se, but because our prior agreement made it so, i.e. their behavior which would be trivial under other circumstances turned into a betrayal of trust and emotions because of our shared promise.

ETA: I see that while I was taking my time pondering whether or not to use my ever so initmate fork example, both Sarkhaan and Bottle beat me to my main point. Oh, well, I can share; you guys get the content points and I get a complimentary creativity cookie?

I believe you have failed to grasp the main point here. Most people here do NOT equal the physical act to emotional betrayal IFF such physical acts have been declared 'okay' beforehand. What has been declared an emotional betrayal is the violation of the, probably emotionally founded, agreement not to engage in said physical act. It is absolutely not about what exactly has been done, but about the fact that doing it has violated prior agreements and trust.

In order to illustrate the point more colorfully: If I, for some obscure reason better not be brought into the light of public discussion, place emotional value on the status that my partner please never use forks for eating with, and we make the agreement that they will refrain from that and I trust them to stick with it, and they then go and use a fork some time later, it'd be an emotional betrayal - not because eating with forks in and of itself constitutes an emotional betrayal per se, but because our prior agreement made it so, i.e. their behavior which would be trivial under other circumstances turned into a betrayal of trust and emotions because of our shared promise.
And who could blame you for feeling betrayed, if you found out your partner was forking around behind your back?!





(I'm really, really sorry for that.)

And who could blame you for feeling betrayed, if you found out your partner was forking around behind your back?!


Sharp as a knife, are we, hmm?
The only thing you're to be sorry for is that that promising large blank space containe dno white text. White text is definitely underused in this forum.
Oh, and in my language, we say "To have been spoon-fed wisdom when one was a baby" when somebody thinks they're just too clever.. wish English had that, too ;P

OK, let me quote Sarkhaan because he raises pretty much the same points as Bottle does:

Monogamy is not outdated any more than any other form of relationship. Forcing one paradigm onto all people, however, is.
If I am in a comitted relationship and we agree to be exclusive to each other, that means we are exclusive. If we agree to only sleep with eachother, then we only sleep with each other. That simple. Anything outside of that is a betrayal of our agreement (whether it is explicit or implicit)
Clearly, as the person in question felt guilty about it, it broke that agreement in his mind. And, equally clearly, as the other person involved has yet to forgive, it also broke in his mind.

OK let me respond to both points at once. First, on the idea of "forcing". Of course I am not advocating forcing anything on anyone. Everybody is free to make their own choices.

My discussion on religion Bottle was not to say that monogamy is a religious construct. Rather, I compare the idea of monogamy to the idea of having a religious belief.

You have admitted many times on this board that you find some religious beliefs to be, in a word "silly". That's ok, so do I. But you've also said, quite aptly, that while you may find such a system "silly", it does not prevent those from believing in it, and while you may disagree with such a belief system, you aren't going to attempt anyone to change it.

Now, of COURSE if someone believes that having sex with someone else is a breach of trust, then inside that relationship, having sex with someone else would be a breach of trust.

If you agree to be exclusive, then a violation of that agreement is a breach of the relationship trust, absolutly. I have never said otherwise. And I in no way advocate doing something to breach the trust in your relationship. If you have agreed that sex with someone else is cheating, don't fuck someone else.

What I HAVE said is that I think such agreements (having sex in any form in any situation at any time) is silly. I think it appeal to an outdated morality (and even new inventions can rapidly become outdated Bottle, even if it is reasonably new invention in our human culture, I think as a moralistic idea it's already outdated).

Now, does MY belief somehow require other people to conform to my belief? Of COURSE not. Just as you are free to have whatever religious beliefs you want to have regardless of my opinion on the matter, so to are you free to have whatever relationship you want, regardless of my feelings on the matter.

But I bring religion Bottle to say that just as you are perfectly comfortable saying that while people are free to believe as they wish, you find some beliefs just silly, so to do I find this particular belief...well...silly.

if it is behind the back of the other person, it is a breach of trust. If you go to them and they say they are uncomfortable with it, you should either a) respect that or b) get out of the relationship.

Absolutly. I would never advocate violating a relationship trust. I do not think however that mere sex is a reason to consider such trust violated.

If both people agree to be exclusive to each other, then it is a betrayal of emotions.

Absolutly it is. I find, however, that agreements to be exclusive in sex to be...again...a bit silly.

I believe you have failed to grasp the main point here. Most people here do NOT equal the physical act to emotional betrayal IFF such physical acts have been declared 'okay' beforehand. What has been declared an emotional betrayal is the violation of the, probably emotionally founded, agreement not to engage in said physical act. It is absolutely not about what exactly has been done, but about the fact that doing it has violated prior agreements and trust.


No, I think it's less that I "failed to grasp it" rather than I perhaps did not articulate it well enough.

Yes, if there is an agreement "don't fuck around with other people, ever, at all" then fucking around with someone else would be a betrayal of that emotional state.

However I find such agreements a bit silly. We have to look at why such agreements come out in the first place. By and large, it is because said partner believes having sex with someone else is a betrayal, full stop. People tell their partners not to have sex with someone else because they feel the idea of sex with someone else is a betrayal.

It is that idea where I have my contention. That the idea of having sex with someone else is a betrayal. I don't believe it is. I believe that it may betray an agreement that you agreed to before hand, however I think the reasons for that agreement are, in many instances...a bit silly.

Let me explain. Why do many couples agree to not have sex with anyone else under any circumstances ever? TYPICALLY it is the belief that that's the sort of thing you just don't do, that it's wrong and immoral and betrays your partner's trust in you.

That is what I don't believe in. now IF you believe in that and IF you make such agreements in your relationship not to do so, then by all means, don't.

However I find the existance of such agreements are typically predicated on a somewhat....impractical and outdated morality.

Sharp as a knife, are we, hmm?
The only thing you're to be sorry for is that that promising large blank space containe dno white text. White text is definitely underused in this forum.
You cut me to the quick, sir.

An excelllent point. By way of apology, please enjoy this limerick.

Let me tell you, it’s not what you know.
I work hard, but I’ve reached a plateau.
I’ve a dozen degrees,
Which astounds the trustees—
Would you like that for here or to go?

To respond to Fass: I may be able to forgive something like this, but it would very much depend on me being able to understand why it happened. I think that's the problem with "It just happened" - it wouldn't give me anything to work with and also sounds dismissive of my need to know. "It just does" is what you get when people can't be bothered to explain something.

I would want to forgive, and save the relationship, but it would take a lot of time, and a lot of questions. "What were you thinking? did you think about me at all? did you forget you were in a relationship? did you not think it would go that far? is there a problem with us? with our sex?" etc.
I couldn't just accept that he did it and move on from it because I would feel that the situation was not resolved. I would feel that I was being kept out of something, that if my partner wouldn't explain, he'd be holding something back from me, excluding me from his thoughts / needs / desires / whatever it was that he needed to get from somebody else. So I'd think that the whatever he got from elsewhere was still not being addressed within our relationship and he'll get it from elsewhere again.

sorry this is so wordy, its hard to put into words.

No, I think it's less that I "failed to grasp it" rather than I perhaps did not articulate it well enough.

Yes, if there is an agreement "don't fuck around with other people, ever, at all" then fucking around with someone else would be a betrayal of that emotional state.

However I find such agreements a bit silly. We have to look at why such agreements come out in the first place. By and large, it is because said partner believes having sex with someone else is a betrayal, full stop. People tell their partners not to have sex with someone else because they feel the idea of sex with someone else is a betrayal.

It is that idea where I have my contention. That the idea of having sex with someone else is a betrayal. I don't believe it is. I believe that it may betray an agreement that you agreed to before hand, however I think the reasons for that agreement are, in many instances...a bit silly.
If your complaint is that too many people go into relationships with too many assumptions, then you won't find any argument here.

I think it's damn stupid to not talk with your partner about your sex life. I think it's damn stupid to not talk about whether your monogamous or not. I think it's stupid to function under the assumption that you and your partner have a given agreement, when you actually haven't even talked about it in the first place. I see that happen a lot.

But we also live in The Age of the Hundred STDs. It's stupid to act like your partner is a prude for expecting you to be monogamous, when there are plenty of practical reasons for them to want that. There are plenty of sound reasons, not remotely attached to patriarchal traditionalism, why your partner may want you to restrain yourself.

If you can't handle that sort of thing, then break up. Don't badger them with talk of how "outdated" their thinking is, or demand that they relax their standards so you can go fuck somebody else. Respect their boundaries and go find a partner who is happy with the system you want.

EDIT: And that last bit is the grim voice of experience speaking. I made the mistake of trying to "convert" a past lover to my way of thinking on the subject, and got pretty snarky when she insisted that she wanted us to be exclusive. It was a lousy thing to do, and I'm very very glad that we remained friends long enough for me to come to my senses and apologize for being an ass about it.

*snip*

ahh...okay. I get it now :)

To respond to Fass: I may be able to forgive something like this, but it would very much depend on me being able to understand why it happened. I think that's the problem with "It just happened" - it wouldn't give me anything to work with and also sounds dismissive of my need to know. "It just does" is what you get when people can't be bothered to explain something.

I would want to forgive, and save the relationship, but it would take a lot of time, and a lot of questions. "What were you thinking? did you think about me at all? did you forget you were in a relationship? did you not think it would go that far? is there a problem with us? with our sex?" etc.
I couldn't just accept that he did it and move on from it because I would feel that the situation was not resolved. I would feel that I was being kept out of something, that if my partner wouldn't explain, he'd be holding something back from me, excluding me from his thoughts / needs / desires / whatever it was that he needed to get from somebody else. So I'd think that the whatever he got from elsewhere was still not being addressed within our relationship and he'll get it from elsewhere again.

sorry this is so wordy, its hard to put into words.

he probably really did do it without thinking.

same as a fat man grabbing a doughnut when he's supposed to be on a diet.

when its the way you have been living, meaningless sex is a very hard habit to break. it can be done but it takes a level of diligence that has to be worked on before it can be relied on not to happen again.

he probably really did do it without thinking.

same as a fat man grabbing a doughnut when he's supposed to be on a diet.

when its the way you have been living, meaningless sex is a very hard habit to break. it can be done but it takes a level of diligence that has to be worked on before it can be relied on not to happen again.

I can understand that - and I could forgive it. I'd have to ask the million questions though, to be sure it was that, and not something else that he just doesn't want to admit to me, or to himself.

Yes, if there is an agreement "don't fuck around with other people, ever, at all" then fucking around with someone else would be a betrayal of that emotional state.
Alright.

However I find such agreements a bit silly. [..] By and large, it is because said partner believes having sex with someone else is a betrayal, full stop. [..] TYPICALLY it is the belief that that's the sort of thing you just don't do, that it's wrong and immoral and betrays your partner's trust in you.[/QUOTE]
Well, I won't contend that just taking on 'traditional' views unquestioned is silly, however, I'd say that many modern couples decide for monogamy not only because 'tradition says so', but for very own, thought-over reasons, some of which Bottle already gave.
You cut me to the quick, sir.

An excelllent point. By way of apology, please enjoy this limerick.

Let me tell you, it’s not what you know.
I work hard, but I’ve reached a plateau.
I’ve a dozen degrees,
Which astounds the trustees—
Would you like that for here or to go?
You, of all people, should know better than to just spoon out a 'sir' to whoever happens to cross you path, or I'll swing my tits at you so that you don't recover for a week (you are that small woman, aren't you?). ;P

Apology accepted, and limerick greatly appreciated (love 'em). Have another one:

There was a young lady from Exeter
so pretty all guys craned their necks at her.
One was even so brave
as to take out and wave
the distinguishing mark of his sex at her.

But we also live in The Age of the Hundred STDs. It's stupid to act like your partner is a prude for expecting you to be monogamous, when there are plenty of practical reasons for them to want that. There are plenty of sound reasons, not remotely attached to patriarchal traditionalism, why your partner may want you to restrain yourself.

Ah see now THAT one, that I get. I understand the "don't fuck around because I sleep with you and don't want herpes" argument. That one I can fully respect. But I think if you really looked into it you'd find that this isn't the real, or at least not principle reason that these agreements get entered into. I do believe for the vast majority it's "don't fuck around because you sleeping with someone else is a personal betrayal" or, even worse "don't fuck around because you sleeping with someone else is a personal betrayal AND an afront to god"

That's the kind of thinking I find a bit outdated.

If you can't handle that sort of thing, then break up. Don't badger them with talk of how "outdated" their thinking is, or demand that they relax their standards so you can go fuck somebody else. Respect their

Umm...thanks? While I appreciate the relationship advice, I'm not exactly a stranger to the concept y'know?

Well, I won't contend that just taking on 'traditional' views unquestioned is silly, however, I'd say that many modern couples decide for monogamy not only because 'tradition says so', but for very own, thought-over reasons, some of which Bottle already gave.

Well I'd question whether it is "many", I still feel the primary reason is as I have articulated. Yes there ARE good reasons, and I think there are some rational reasons to do so, however I find that the belief in "you having sex with someone else is a betrayal to me" is not really all that rational.

Well I'd question whether it is "many", I still feel the primary reason is as I have articulated. Yes there ARE good reasons, and I think there are some rational reasons to do so, however I find that the belief in "you having sex with someone else is a betrayal to me" is not really all that rational.

I believe that "you have sex with someone else and you don't tell me" is a betrayal.

The "you have sex with someone else" is not. It's the lie that makes it a betrayal.

I believe that "you have sex with someone else and you don't tell me" is a betrayal.

The "you have sex with someone else" is not. It's the lie that makes it a betrayal.

sure, but perhaps no more and no less a betrayal than "you went off and bought a car and didn't tell me"

sure, but perhaps no more and no less a betrayal than "you went off and bought a car and didn't tell me"

If you went and bought a car, that car isn't coming home with an STD that will kill me.

sure, but perhaps no more and no less a betrayal than "you went off and bought a car and didn't tell me"

more. Buying a car is an act that involves only you. Having sex is taking something that you both agreed is something exclusive to the other, and giving it to someone else. it plays with intimacy, trust, and jealousy. A car is just trust.

he probably really did do it without thinking.

same as a fat man grabbing a doughnut when he's supposed to be on a diet.

when its the way you have been living, meaningless sex is a very hard habit to break. it can be done but it takes a level of diligence that has to be worked on before it can be relied on not to happen again.

Hey! I'll have you know that when I reach for a doughnut I am fully aware of my actions. :mad:

more. Buying a car is an act that involves only you. Having sex is taking something that you both agreed is something exclusive to the other, and giving it to someone else. it plays with intimacy, trust, and jealousy. A car is just trust.

The exception being in the case of a married couple.

If you went and bought a car, that car isn't coming home with an STD that will kill me.

But it may have a faulty side airbag. That could kill you.

more. Buying a car is an act that involves only you. Having sex is taking something that you both agreed is something exclusive to the other, and giving it to someone else. it plays with intimacy, trust, and jealousy. A car is just trust.

speak for yourself. For MY perspective (well ok, ignoring the STD part cause BOY would I get pissed if she came back with an STD), "I had sex with someone and didn't tell you" is a betrayal of trust, not for the sex part, but for the not telling part.

Again, your relationships vary, that is how mine is however.

Hey! I'll have you know that when I reach for a doughnut I am fully aware of my actions. :mad:

yeah me too.

speak for yourself. For MY perspective (well ok, ignoring the STD part cause BOY would I get pissed if she came back with an STD), "I had sex with someone and didn't tell you" is a betrayal of trust, not for the sex part, but for the not telling part.

Again, your relationships vary, that is how mine is however.

its more like taking the money you have been saving for 5 years for a second honeymoon and blowing it at the track.

i had a friend whose new husband took their nest egg (obviously not saved for a second honeymoon) and blew it on some "toys" for himself.

she divorced him.

If my husband cheated on me I would divorce him immediately - and I would expect the same from him .
Before we married we had the discussion about fidelity and both agreed that the first time would be the LAST time if either of us ever cheated.

There is no excuse for cheating - not alcohol, not loss of self - control ,not " I needed to feel loved "

There may be " reasons" but there are no " excuses".

I have been in plenty of situations where I could have cheated on my husband - and I didn't. Because his feelings are more important to me than a few moments of intimate pleasure. And believe me , in some cases the temptation has been very strong.

Have we agreed on monogamy?

Then, hmmm. I'm not sure what I'd do. Maybe I'll treat her like a bitch and continue to have sex until I find someone else or she gives up. Or maybe, I'll cheat on her too and see if she forgives. Maybe I'll do both...

Say, you're in a serious relationship with someone, keys have been exchanged, moving in together is imminent, discussions about the common future have been fruitful and you're happy as can be that you're finally settling down with the man/woman/genderqueer person of your dreams.

Then the other person does something monumentally stupid and has meaningless, anonymous sex with a stranger, has horrible remorse about it and tells you straight away, begging for forgiveness.

Would you be able to forgive? Poll coming.

Edit: And of course, there's an uneditable grammar mistake in the poll. Typical.

Sure. People make mistakes. I'd like to say I could just forgive and forget, but it wouldn't be that simple. I'd be angry, I don't think I could help it. I'd also be suspisicious, trust would have to be reestablished. If she could forgive me for those eventualities, I could forgive her.

What about "I don't know, it just happened"?

that = "It could easily happen again." In my eyes.

that = "It could easily happen again." In my eyes.
That was my first thought too.

It implies that either Fass has no genuine respect for his b/f (regardless of what he might say to himself) or no real interest in the relationship.
imo, one doesn't just 'happen' into a one-night stand unless they have some deep lingering misgivings about their current relationship.

About monogamy:

I think that people entering a sexual relationship should probably work out whether or not they should be exclusive to each other - in advance.

If they agree to have a 'closed' relationship, then they should stick by it.

That was my first thought too.

It implies that either Fass has no genuine respect for his b/f (regardless of what he might say to himself) or no real interest in the relationship.
imo, one doesn't just 'happen' into a one-night stand unless they have some deep lingering misgivings about their current relationship.


Yep. "I prescribed myself some good drugs and blanked out." would have been much better. :p

that = "It could easily happen again." In my eyes.

Yeah, in other words it means you could have stopped yourself but just didn't want to. What a lame way to avoid personal responsibility.

I did it to my fiance and he forgave me, and we're back together. I would do the same.

Why do I bite? I don't know. It just happens...

It implies that either Fass has no genuine respect for his b/f (regardless of what he might say to himself) or no real interest in the relationship.

It also implies that you don't know what you're talking about and that you are ready to construe a quick judgement from the little information I have chosen to share.

imo, one doesn't just 'happen' into a one-night stand unless they have some deep lingering misgivings about their current relationship.

I know it must seem strange to people who are used to playing coy and heterosexist games with prospective sexual partners, but for reasonably attractive gay men the situation is very different. There need be no games, no false courtships, no person in a weaker position upon whom society inflicts a misogynistic chastity complex... I digress, but what I'm trying to say is that I need not expend all that much energy in procuring a sexual partner. Not being hideous and the people I want to fuck being men means that the odds are overwhelmingly on my side when it comes to the probability of getting fucked. Things can and do indeed "just happen" when the conditions are like that.

Now, I've noticed that some people would like to construe this as me shirking responsibility for my actions, something I frankly find outright hilarious in light of the fact that I owned up to my actions before the only person in the world that had any way of making me suffer for them - not regretting that I did so one iota, and that I have on several occasions in this thread disagreed with theories that implied any sort of removal of individual responsibility from anyone. My inability to formulate/invent some pseudo-intellectual clichéd "reason" for my transgression has no bearing on my responsibility in the events that transpired and I'll be damned if I'd satisfy the amateur psychs in my surroundings by furnishing them with a simple "reason" upon which they can build an "explanation" and then feel good about themselves for their oh, so deductive abilities.

So, do feel free to weave your profile on me - I am quite content, and amused, with being far too complex a personality to be adequately made to fit into the theories from your and your likes' cereal carton psych courses.

Things can and do indeed "just happen" when the conditions are like that.

Bullshit - you made a decision, it doesn't 'just happen', a decision is made to go with it or not.

You decided to go with it. I'm not into debating the right or wrong of that but it's what you decided to do.

So it does reflect on your character to some degree. It may mean you're the sort of person who can't say no to himself, it may mean you couldn't care less, it may be you just wanted some sex, it may mean many things but it does reflect on your character because other people in the same situation would have made different decisions.

Given people have a good history of how you respond to people on this board, they can certainly draw some conclusions as your respect for others - given you've posted how you despise most people, it's not a stretch to extrapolate that.

Those extrapolations may be wrong, you may disagree with them but don't whine about people analyzing the situation when you've put it up on a public board where you've had history.

Bullshit - you made a decision, it doesn't 'just happen', a decision is made to go with it or not.

Decisions just happen, too. "Decisions" can be part of things that "just happen". I make tonnes of "decisions" all day that are like that, and I bet you do, too. That there was a "decision" involved in "not deciding" to behave in a certain way makes it no less something that happened without premeditation or discernible reasons thereto.

Those extrapolations may be wrong,

I know them to be...

you may disagree with them but don't whine about people analyzing the situation when you've put it up on a public board where you've had history.

... and it's strange that you should see as "whining" that I let you know how wrong they are. At the very most it's superfluous because you should be able to on your own have the intellect to acknowledge that you know far too little about me and the events to be able to form any sort of even microscopically adequate "extrapolation" about it, but I guess a lot of people aren't and seem to really do think that they can "know" these things about people on-line. It's almost puerile in its lack of discernment.

Decisions just happen, too. "Decisions" can be part of things that "just happen". I make tonnes of "decisions" all day that are like that, and I bet you do, too. That there was a "decision" involved in "not deciding" to behave in a certain way makes it no less something that happened without premeditation or discernible reasons thereto.

Come on - at no point did you question whether this was the right thing to do, whether there'd be consequences? There's degrees of decisions, I might make a random decision as to whether I choose apple or lemon drinking yogurt but that's not quite the same - and if you think it is, then you're clearly showing a disregard for the person whose feelings you should respect.

If it meant nothing at all, why bother telling the guy?

I know them to be...

Seeing as you seem to read AG - γνῶθι σεαυτόν - how well do you?

... and it's strange that you should see as "whining" that I let you know how wrong they are. At the very most it's superfluous because you should be able to on your own have the intellect to acknowledge that you know far too little about me and the events to be able to form any sort of even microscopically adequate "extrapolation" about it, but I guess a lot of people aren't and seem to really do think that they can "know" these things about people on-line. It's almost puerile in its lack of discernment.

Absolutely not - you have a long history on this board where you've made many of your views clear, we can certainly form opinions - are they correct? Perhaps not but it's not unreasonable to make them.

Kreitz here. I'm interested that most people say they would.

I think I would too. Mostly because I can imagine myself, if I was slightly less of a confused pussy doing something similar. Mostly I find getting to the point of intimacy incredibly slow and difficult, so there's not much chance of managing more than one person at once, at the best of times, without any questions of betrayal and so forth. I guess being spontaneous/easy is something I imagine with some wisfulness. I can sympathize with the temptations of people that are capable of that, I suppose. Not that it's not a mistake. But I make plenty of mistakes that other people would find impossible to make.

anyway, I hope that it works out for you fass.

Come on - at no point did you question whether this was the right thing to do, whether there'd be consequences?

Yes, it's called regret and that is post-factual.

There's degrees of decisions, I might make a random decision as to whether I choose apple or lemon drinking yogurt but that's not quite the same - and if you think it is, then you're clearly showing a disregard for the person whose feelings you should respect.

And you are clearly eschewing even the fact that you yourself admit in this post but minimise because it tears asunder your entire position: not all things "decided" are deliberate, or thought-through, or have discernible reasons. Your little attempt at reassembling the crumbled position you are propagating with another post-factual irrelevance of "disregard for the person" is failed because it rests in that same flawed basis that somehow a "decision" means that things don't just happen.

If it meant nothing at all, why bother telling the guy?

Because it meant something to him and because I value honesty. Neither of which have anything to do with what we were discussing.

Seeing as you seem to read AG - γνῶθι σεαυτόν - how well do you?

I do know myself infinitely better than anyone here will ever be in any position to, hence my amusement with the laboured "analyses", although I do have to admit to being impressed with how much can be constructed with so little material - such frugality would in other circumstances surely be lauded.

Absolutely not - you have a long history on this board where you've made many of your views clear, we can certainly form opinions - are they correct? Perhaps not but it's not unreasonable to make them.

I would contend that it is, but that is beside the point to them being so utterly baseless in their flaws.

I may be able to forgiven them in time, but I would break off the relationship and I wouldn't get back together with them. Why would I break it off and not reconsider them, because once the woman has cheated on me, the trust is gone, and its very damn hard to rebuild it. I know how my mind works, and even if we did get back together after she cheated, I would still be wondering what she was doing when we're not together in person and yea. It's just better if I just break it off completely.

Yes, it's called regret and that is post-factual.

And you are clearly eschewing even the fact that you yourself admit in this post but minimise because it tears asunder your entire position: not all things "decided" are deliberate, or thought-through, or have discernible reasons. Your little attempt at reassembling the crumbled position you are propagating with another post-factual irrelevance of "disregard for the person" is failed because it rests in that same flawed basis that somehow a "decision" means that things don't just happen.

No, you had physical sex. There's a series of steps you take, it doesn't just happen; because it's consensual therefore events lead up to that. Gay or not, there's a series of steps. Someone catches your eye, you accept conversation, you start kissing, you take clothes off, you have sex.

It's not standing at a fridge reaching your hand out. There's degrees of decision.

At some point in this, you must have questioned it. You made a decision on that question.

If you did not even question it, that says even less of you in your concern for other people, even those you profess to love, making DH's assessment of you fairly correct.

I'm really not moralising on this - people cheat, but to say it isn't a decision is facile. The more a person means to you, the more important that decision is.

Given your strong opinions on this board, and the way you express them, people will make judgments.

Honestly, I think cheating is the one thing that shouldn't be forgiven. Sure, forgiveness is nice in our modern bubble gum pop world. But this person has abused your trust. Even though they told you right away. They didn't show that remorse or concern when the were cheating. Stand up for yourself, there are plenty of others out there who have integrity and would not cheat.

No, you had physical sex. There's a series of steps you take, it doesn't just happen; because it's consensual therefore events lead up to that. Gay or not, there's a series of steps. Someone catches your eye, you accept conversation, you start kissing, you take clothes off, you have sex.

Or you're both already naked when first you see each other and he puts your dick in his mouth. Again: just because you live under some heterosexist idea of "how things happen when one engages in sex" doesn't mean you have a clue about all the other ways available. You only know a very small piece of the puzzle, and you will never know more than that, so don't pretend the rest of your assembly is anything but one piece surrounded by your own bound imagination.

Given your strong opinions on this board, and the way you express them, people will make judgments.

And I'll be laughing my ass off at them as I've grown accustomed to.

It would depend on a number of factors which I can't even begin to list right now, but my probable response would be to back up a few steps in the relationship. When infidelity occurs, one of the problems may be that the relationship isn't ready for that level of commitment. So, definitely, discussions would be in order, possibly couples counseling. It could end or it could continue on, stronger than before, but the underlying problems would have to be cleared up.

Or you're both already naked when first you see each other and he puts your dick in his mouth. Again: just because you live under some heterosexist idea of "how things happen when one engages in sex" doesn't mean you have a clue about all the other ways available. You only know a very small piece of the puzzle, and you will never know more than that, so don't pretend the rest of your assembly is anything but one piece surrounded by your own bound imagination.

Ha ha - you're ridiculous.

Are we coming down to an 'I fell on his dick' excuse?

Don't think gay people have some special deal with sex, or that hetero males ask a father's permission to screw their daughter in some sort of hetero traditional dance of love.

You made a decision, people will judge you on it - deal with it.

Ha ha - you're ridiculous.

And you're ignorant of so much.

Are we coming down to an 'I fell on his dick' excuse?

Are we coming to the extent of your probably virginal heterosexist "insight"?

You made a decision, people will judge you on it - deal with it.

And your judgement is flawed and easily dismissed - deal with that.

Or you're both already naked when first you see each other and he puts your dick in his mouth.

At which point you have a choice. Kick him, say no, allow him to go on and several dozen more. Likely after a short period of shock, but well before orgasm is reached.

Again: just because you live under some heterosexist idea of "how things happen when one engages in sex" doesn't mean you have a clue about all the other ways available.

I daresay the description you gave of what happened would not be considered normal by most homosexuals.

And you're ignorant of so much.

Are we coming to the extent of your probably virginal heterosexist "insight"?

And your judgement is flawed and easily dismissed - deal with that.

Honestly - you made a decision, you regret it, that decision says something about you - that you didn't care enough not to do it.

If there was no decision, then it wasn't infidelity, you had no choice in the matter.

One of the two no matter your sexual persuasion.

At which point you have a choice. Kick him, say no, allow him to go on and several dozen more. Likely after a short period of shock, but well before orgasm is reached.

I am not going to go into the details, if that's what you think. That was just an example, as I've already told you your judgements are dismissed. If you think I have anything to defend to your likes, you've another thing coming.

I daresay the description you gave of what happened would not be considered normal by most homosexuals.

Not if they're being honest. Many of them try to make their stories conform to a heterosexist mould so as not to "offend", not to present something the heterosexuals could from their narrow perspective judge them for. "Oh, Mark and I met through some friends" is so much more palatable at the dinner party with the other suburbian couples than "I didn't know his name until after he took the gag out".

One of the two no matter your sexual persuasion.

One of the two due to your simplistic understanding, the nature of which I've already pointed out.

Oh dear. At first I was prepared to deal with your question as if it were an honest one. As if you were feeling genuine regret for an impulsive, but potentially hurtful, act. But, judging from your responses to other posters, I see that you are, as usual, defensive and angry and rationalizing unacceptable behavior. Heterosexual or homosexual, betrayal of trust is wrong. It has nothing to do with having sex, it has everything to do with respect - self-respect and respect for your significant other. Might I suggest that it's not the heterosexuals on this forum who have trouble with your homosexuality, it's you?

Not if they're being honest. Many of them try to make their stories conform to a heterosexist mould so as not to "offend", not to present something the heterosexuals could from their narrow perspective judge them for. "Oh, Mark and I met through some friends" is so much more palatable at the dinner party with the other suburbian couples than "I didn't know his name until after he took the gag out".

Here's where you're really showing your simplistic view - you think heteros don't have blind sex with strangers, you think heteros don't engage in abnormal practices - you think gays have some special hold on the sexual world, oh so liberated?

Fucking is fucking no matter which way it goes and both heteros and gays do it in a surprising number of ways.

A decision is made if you're going to indulge in infidelity and gay people don't have this big different brain that lessens that decision at all.

Oh dear. At first I was prepared to deal with your question as if it were an honest one. As if you were feeling genuine regret for an impulsive, but potentially hurtful, act. But, judging from your responses to other posters, I see that you are, as usual, defensive and angry and rationalizing unacceptable behavior.

That's where I stopped reading, because I could guess what would follow - more imagined "reasons" and "defences" and whatnots you manage to create all in your own head from simple examples and elaborations as to why these "judgings" of yours and of posters like you were so poorly informed and based on said imagination. I have nothing to defend from you, nor do I need defend anything.

That's where I stopped reading, because I could guess what would follow - more imagined "reasons" and "defences" and whatnots you manage to create all in your own head from simple examples and elaborations as to why these "judgings" of yours and of posters like you were so poorly informed and based on said imagination. I have nothing to defend from you, nor do I need defend anything.

Then what on earth do you ask to be forgiven ?

A decision is made if you're going to indulge in infidelity...

And as you've already admitted, decisions need have no discernible reasons. But you like to cling to your position no matter that you acknowledged it flawed yourself.

Then what on earth do you ask to be forgiven ?

I ask to be forgiven? Where?

I ask to be forgiven? Where?

The opening post and poll ?
To rephrase: what exactly do you consider to be the wrong committed that makes you beg for forgiveness from your partner ? The posts above seem to indicate your views differs from the people responding (including mine) - making it somewhat hard to decide if I would forgive in those cirucmstances.

That's where I stopped reading, because I could guess what would follow - more imagined "reasons" and "defences" and whatnots you manage to create all in your own head from simple examples and elaborations as to why these "judgings" of yours and of posters like you were so poorly informed and based on said imagination. I have nothing to defend from you, nor do I need defend anything.

Then why did you bring it up?

If you just needed 'Yes, I'd forgive' or 'No, I wouldn't forgive', then I can think of several better places to put a poll. But putting it here in a forum infers you want to hear why people would and wouldn't forgive.

Whether you agree with their opinions or not really doesn't change the fact that you wanted to hear them, and frankly knocking people for their opinons is defending yourself despite your claim to have no need to do so.

As for me, I'd need to know more, but my wife and I have the kind of relationship where I'd be most hurt that she couldn't tell me she needed something from someone that I wasn't providing than the act itself. In fact if she asked me, I'd probably let her have sex with someone else.

The opening post and poll ?
To rephrase: what exactly do you consider to be the wrong committed that makes you beg for forgiveness from your partner ? The posts above seem to indicate your views differs from the people responding (including mine) - making it somewhat hard to decide if I would forgive in those cirucmstances.

You think the poll is about me? You think just because someone later on brought up something similar, but most certainly not identical, that happened in my life - that the OP is some sort of personal confessional and appeal to popularity? It's just a poll! It's not about me. The discussion where some people wondered about a thing that happened in my life came after the OP and isn't all that related to it apart from the subject matter. Somewhere along the line, people seem to have muddied the two and started posting all sorts of demented "conclusions" about me just because I shared - as I've already said - a very, very small amount of information about my personal circumstances unrelated to the frickin' poll. That is what I am "arguing" with you people about now and trying to tell you that you have no clue - no standing whatsoever - to even attempt to draw these conclusions and that it is quite puerile of you not to realise that.

Then why did you bring it up?

I didn't.

Yeah, don't you love that there are still boys who cling to that old debunked tripe about how men are genetically wired to cheat?

Assertion: Hetero Man has X sex partners, on average. Hetero Woman has Y sex partners, on average. X > Y.

Hmm. Let's think about what that must mean, shall we?

1) Hetero Man is having a lot of sex with other men.
2) Hetero Man is raping a lot of women, and is counting his victims as "sex partners."
3) The assertion that X > Y is pure bunk, and Hetero Woman is having just as many sex partners as Hetero Man.You fail to account for prostitution. Prostitutes aren't cheating, but the men/women that sleep with them very well may be. And the difference in the amount of male and female prostitutes would suggest males take more advantage of that arrangement.
Also, people may cheat with someone who is single (and thus not cheating).

And aside from that, the assertion made by people that cling to the idea that "men are genetically wired to cheat", is more likely that more men than women cheat, rather than that men cheat more than women. (But that would imply that when women cheat, they cheat with more partners on average than men that cheat, which seems unlikely in itself. Unless the prostitutes make up the difference.)

In any case, the analysis could use some work.
Considering the number of men that are unknowingly raising children that they didn't father, it's safe to say that women cheat, and well at that. (I've heard estimates as high as 1 in 3; seems a bit over the top though)

You think the poll is about me?

It being about you is not required to make the question relevant.
What is the thing you would consider requiring forgiveness in those circumstances ?

Or you're both already naked when first you see each other and he puts your dick in his mouth.

:p I find this amusing.

What is the thing you would consider requiring forgiveness in those circumstances ?

A breach of expected monogamy. The motives thereto weren't dealt with in the OP. Junii brought them up, I asked a follow-up to that about no motive being discernible because I was curious about his stance and then you have all these people attempting so hilariously to "analyse" me for some reason with so little to set them off.

Why do I bite? I don't know. It just happens...
I'm surprised you get as much dick as you do if you bite, but I digress.

It also implies that you don't know what you're talking about and that you are ready to construe a quick judgement from the little information I have chosen to share.
Well, unless you're prepared to offer more information than you have, we can do little else but infer from what you have said. The ball's in your court on that one.
This (leaving out relevant information) does however raise the question as to why you even bothered creating this thread in the first place.
Where you just looking for pity/understanding/forgiveness etc etc to assuage your guilty conscience?
Hardly likely. Considering how abrasive and condescending you come across, one must credit you with a tad more intelligence than you thinking you would find absolution and empathy here on this board.
Or were you deliberately leaving out important info so that if and when someone called you on some point you could smugly decry them for making leaps in inference based on pure suppositions and no true facts? Considering who this is we're dealing with...well...hmmm...

I know it must seem strange to people who are used to playing coy and heterosexist games with prospective sexual partners, but for reasonably attractive gay men the situation is very different. There need be no games, no false courtships, no person in a weaker position upon whom society inflicts a misogynistic chastity complex... I digress, but what I'm trying to say is that I need not expend all that much energy in procuring a sexual partner. Not being hideous and the people I want to fuck being men means that the odds are overwhelmingly on my side when it comes to the probability of getting fucked. Things can and do indeed "just happen" when the conditions are like that.
I know it must seem strange to a gay man, but a heterosexual male can indeed end up in positions and places where sex is freely and readily offered (and no I'm not talking about prostitutes either).
I've literally woken to find a female friend naked in bed with me attempting (and succeeding exceptionally well truth be told) to arouse me. That particular instance I turned them down not because I didn't want to have sex (I needed several self-abuse sessions that day to get myself over that mornings sexcapades) but because I was currently in a relationship (g/f was out of town that weekend and I'd gotten drunk with a mate who slept in the spare room but came into my room early am with the intent to fuck).
I had enough respect for my g/f at that time to stop the situation going further.
I say that time, because I did end up cheating on her (repeatedly) a couple of years down the track because by that time I had indeed lost interest in the relationship and so could/did act in a total selfish (and very much assholey) manner.

So, do feel free to weave your profile on me - I am quite content, and amused, with being far too complex a personality to be adequately made to fit into the theories from your and your likes' cereal carton psych courses.
ohhh..I am too so complex! Look at me! I have hidden depths! I feel! I bleed!
And I am so not emo!
now if you'll excuse me I need to go write some poetry.

You think the poll is about me? You think just because someone later on brought up something similar, but most certainly not identical, that happened in my life - that the OP is some sort of personal confessional and appeal to popularity? It's just a poll! It's not about me. The discussion where some people wondered about a thing that happened in my life came after the OP and isn't all that related to it apart from the subject matter. Somewhere along the line, people seem to have muddied the two and started posting all sorts of demented "conclusions" about me just because I shared - as I've already said - a very, very small amount of information about my personal circumstances unrelated to the frickin' poll. That is what I am "arguing" with you people about now and trying to tell you that you have no clue - no standing whatsoever - to even attempt to draw these conclusions and that it is quite puerile of you not to realise that.

I didn't.

I see. I seem to have inadvertently made a fool out of myself for not reading the whole thread beginning to end before jumping in. Not that I have a problem making a fool out of myself, but I usually like to control the how and why. Anyway, apologies for the misunderstanding. My description of my reaction to theoretical infidelity stands though. *nod*

The ball's in your court on that one.

Don't go there, girlfriend.

This (leaving out relevant information) does however raise the question as to why you even bothered creating this thread in the first place.

Well, I was inspired by something that happened in my life to ponder about infidelity. I came up with a question and thought this might be pollable material. Tada! Amazing, isn't it? Sort of like when people start other polls about things they've thought about, say favourite Simpsons characters.

Someone remembered that I had mentioned something falling into the subject matter in another thread and asked me about it, I filled them in on it and then quite explicitly said that that was not what was being talked about. Pages later, I come back to the thread and all these people are making up all sorts of judgements on my character from the very little information I gave mixed with the OP and who knows what other little personal bias they have. I point out how utterly uninformed they are, and well, here we are. You clinging to some imagined turn of events that I am somehow supposed to be... what? "Guilty" of? Hah!

I see. I seem to have inadvertently made a fool out of myself for not reading the whole thread beginning to end before jumping in. Not that I have a problem making a fool out of myself, but I usually like to control the how and why. Anyway, apologies for the misunderstanding. My description of my reaction to theoretical infidelity stands though. *nod*

Have a read then,

I'd like to see where Fassigen stated that this was not about him.

In post 10 a reference is made and he replies, in no way saying that this was not about him.

Then here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12960072&postcount=88), and here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12960105&postcount=93) he continues the reference without stating the OP is nothing to do with him - he does request that 'we stop talking about it' but take a look at this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12967846&postcount=45).

Personally I'm not interested in whether it's about Fassigen or not - I would like to hear of his hypothetical circumstance in which a person does not make a decision to be unfaithful.

To Fassigen - yes there is a discernible reason why you would make such a decision - as I'm assuming you're accepting a decision was made - even if that's a decision of omission, it's a decision due to a lack of care as to the consequences.

Wow, what a scary and entirely outdated concept of sex....

It's also interesting how the terms "cheating" and "having sex with someone else" are so seemingly interchangeable. Sure I'd be upset if a partner truly cheated on me, but I am hardly the type to consider mere sex with another person to be cheating.

What makes it cheating isn't the sex itself but the deception, the betrayal of trust.

If it's all out in the open and everyone involved is okay with it, it's not cheating, it's an open relationship. No deception, no betrayal = no cheating.

You, of all people, should know better than to just spoon out a 'sir' to whoever happens to cross you path, or I'll swing my tits at you so that you don't recover for a week (you are that small woman, aren't you?). ;P

Apology accepted, and limerick greatly appreciated (love 'em). Have another one:

There was a young lady from Exeter
so pretty all guys craned their necks at her.
One was even so brave
as to take out and wave
the distinguishing mark of his sex at her.
Oh how I love it when my bad behavior is so richly rewarded. :D


Although males come equipped with two balls,
There are men who ain’t ballsy at all.
Folks with guts are quite rare,
And they don’t need a pair.
In fact, some gals are brimming with gall.

sure, but perhaps no more and no less a betrayal than "you went off and bought a car and didn't tell me"
My partner's money belongs to him. He can use it however he chooses. My body, on the other hand, does not belong to him, and he does not have the right to put my body at risk simply because he feels like it. If he wants to engage in activities that put my body at risk, he can talk to me about it. (I'm currently working on the subject of us going skydiving, to give a reverse example.)

I know it must seem strange to people who are used to playing coy and heterosexist games with prospective sexual partners, but for reasonably attractive gay men the situation is very different. There need be no games, no false courtships, no person in a weaker position upon whom society inflicts a misogynistic chastity complex... I digress, but what I'm trying to say is that I need not expend all that much energy in procuring a sexual partner. Not being hideous and the people I want to fuck being men means that the odds are overwhelmingly on my side when it comes to the probability of getting fucked. Things can and do indeed "just happen" when the conditions are like that.
Sounds like you're the one buying in to old heterosexist tripe about how "boys will be boys."

"Oh noes, we don't have dainty womenz to restrain our manly sex drives! Woe is us! We are woe! We cannot keep our penises from charging randomly in all directions!"

The fact that you have a lot of available OPTIONS doesn't remotely equate to things "just happening" the way you describe. Hell, I lived on a college campus as a female for 4 years...I could walk out into my hall and announce that I wanted to get nekkid, and I'd have my pick of boys from all over the freaking building. I had ENDLESS opportunity to fuck. But I also still had a brain, and I was still responsible for when, how, and whom I chose to fuck.

And so are you.

If you really have some kind of mental condition that makes you incapable of resisting a naked man, and if you are in a relationship where you have committed to monogamy, then you should stop going to places where you are naked with a bunch of other men. I know it seems hard to believe, but such places do exist.

Or you're both already naked when first you see each other and he puts your dick in his mouth. Again: just because you live under some heterosexist idea of "how things happen when one engages in sex" doesn't mean you have a clue about all the other ways available. You only know a very small piece of the puzzle, and you will never know more than that, so don't pretend the rest of your assembly is anything but one piece surrounded by your own bound imagination.

I'd love to see you try the "oh you silly stupid heterosexual" routine on me...

Seriously, Fass, you ARE coming across as somebody trying to use the "I just fell over on his dick!" excuse. Give it up.

You can control yourself. Don't try to weasel out by saying, "it just happened," because telling yourself shit like that is the best way to ensure that it will happen again. And telling your partner that is the best way to warn them that they are with a person who will make cheating a habit.

I daresay the description you gave of what happened would not be considered normal by most homosexuals.
For the record: no, it is not.

Fass is advancing the "bathhouse" perspective of homosexuality. This certainly is a lifestyle chosen by some homosexuals, but is most certainly not in any way inherent to being gay. The fact that some (usually male) homosexuals like to use their orientation as an excuse for their behavior should not be taken to reflect on all gay people.

You fail to account for prostitution.

Are the prostitutes WOMEN?

Gee whiz. Then let's think about that.

"Hetero men have more partners than hetero women, as long as we state up front that a chunk of the female population doesn't count."


Prostitutes aren't cheating, but the men/women that sleep with them very well may be. And the difference in the amount of male and female prostitutes would suggest males take more advantage of that arrangement.
Also, people may cheat with someone who is single (and thus not cheating).

Perhaps my example was confusing...my point was that hetero males cannot have more partners, on average, than hetero females, unless the males are having MALE partners (or are raping and counting their victims as partners).


And aside from that, the assertion made by people that cling to the idea that "men are genetically wired to cheat", is more likely that more men than women cheat, rather than that men cheat more than women. (But that would imply that when women cheat, they cheat with more partners on average than men that cheat, which seems unlikely in itself. Unless the prostitutes make up the difference.)

Well, this then just gets back to the virgin-whore crap.

The "typical" male is "wired to cheat." Meanwhile, there are "good" women who don't cheat, and a slut class of women who provide all the sex for men who are cheating.

Meh.

It's still bunk. Men aren't any more "wired" for promiscuity than women. Indeed, there are a lot of reasons why a male human would be LESS evolutionarily successful due to cheating, and a lot of reasons why female humans would be at an advantage when cheating.

Indeed, there are a lot of reasons why a male human would be LESS evolutionarily successful due to cheating, and a lot of reasons why female humans would be at an advantage when cheating.

I think man has recognised that and been successful in placing women in a position whereby man can control it.

A woman must be chaste, innocent and virginal...unless she's a prostitute because it sucks that we've cast women in a way that stops us getting laid - what a neat solution to a potential backfire.

I think man has recognised that and been successful in placing women in a position whereby man can control it.

Absolutely.

One thing people either don't know or choose to forget is that evolutionary success is measured by how many fertile offspring you produce. In other words, you're not a "success" until your child reaches maturity and produces its own offspring.

For a male to run around fathering tons of babies is actually not a good strategy for our species. Human infants require a lot of care and resources to survive to maturity, and one of the reasons that we are a social species is because our young benefit so much from having multiple adults to care for them.

If a male wants to really enhance his chances of being successful (reproductively), it is in his best interests to help care for his offspring. A male who produces ten children with ten different females has ten mates and ten offspring to try to support, and runs a high chance of not being able to do so. A male who dedicates his energy to a single mate and a smaller number of offspring will have a better chance of getting at least some of his offspring to adulthood.

In addition, females of our species don't have external indicators of fertility. We don't have our butts turn pink when we're at the fertile point of our menstrual cycle. Thus, a male can't know if the female he's with is actually fertile right now. If he's spending his time running around with a lot of different females, he may well be wasting his time (reproductively speaking) by having sex with a bunch of females who aren't fertile right now anyway. Sticking to one female throughout her cycle gives him a solid shot at fertilization.

Females, on the other hand, stand to gain if they can convince multiple males to care for their offspring. It sounds rotten, but doubtful paternity can be very beneficial in reproductive terms for females. If my offspring could have two fathers providing for them, protecting them, and helping them, then their odds of survival just went waaaaay up. Also, if a male thinks my offspring might be his, he may be less likely to kill it because that would harm his chances of reproductive success. So, reproductively speaking, females have a large incentive to keep the paternity of their offspring doubtful.


A woman must be chaste, innocent and virginal...unless she's a prostitute because it sucks that we've cast women in a way that stops us getting laid - what a neat solution to a potential backfire.
Yep, it always comes back to that same crap. There always must be some designated population of human garbage cans. Prostitutes are the designated sexual dumpsters, so men can relieve themselves and yet still keep their "good" women nice and chaste.

Oh how I love it when my bad behavior is so richly rewarded. :D


Although males come equipped with two balls,
There are men who ain’t ballsy at all.
Folks with guts are quite rare,
And they don’t need a pair.
In fact, some gals are brimming with gall.

There's a true art in life. Only child, by any chance? ;P

There was a young lady in Niger
who smiled as she rode on a tiger.
They returned from the ride
with the lady inside
and the smile on the face of the tiger.

There's a true art in life. Only child, by any chance? ;P

There was a young lady in Niger
who smiled as she rode on a tiger.
They returned from the ride
with the lady inside
and the smile on the face of the tiger.
I've got one younger brother, but I was an only child for a decade and I think my temperament pretty much set on "only kid."

A poetess once announced, "I'm
Going to start penning lim'ricks part time!"
She wrote just a bit,
But they sounded like shit
'Cuz she never could get them to sound right.

I've got one younger brother, but I was an only child for a decade and I think my temperament pretty much set on "only kid."

A poetess once announced, "I'm
Going to start penning lim'ricks part time!"
She wrote just a bit,
But they sounded like shit
'Cuz she never could get them to sound right.
As long as you don't say that your temperament is set only on "kid".. ;P
There was this young poet from Australia
who regared his work as a failure.
His limericks were fine
until the fourth line
where they always horribly jumped out of meter and messed it all up.

Fass, yes you are probably good looking and easily able to get sex from any number of hot men, but you are far to non-chalant about having screwed over the person you cared about and who cared about you.

You seem to care and feel sorry for what you did but then at the same time you come off like, "so what... it happened. Big deal. Get over it.". Thats where people think you aren't accepting responsibility. Don't try to pull the "heterosexual games" card. Noone is trying to make you act like a heterosexual couple and games are not limited to heterosexuals. Really dude, it's unbecomming of your intelligence.

If you want a relationship where you can fuck anyone without care while simultaneously having a serious relationship then you need to establish that in the beginning of the relationship. Tell your potential partners that you can't resist temptation when presented with sexy opportunities.

That's what I did with my wife. Our relationship began as a sexual one and it moved towards something more but the whole time I established that I wanted to keep it open for us to be able to let others join us in bed. I'll let her fuck preapproved women by herself and she will let me fuck preapproved men by myself. We both understand that the other has needs and will allow those needs to be met to keep each other happy.

We have an understanding that lust != love. We allow each other to lust after others, it does not diminish our lust or love for each other. In fact we both feel our relationship is strong and secure because of our openess.

I hope I am not way off base and that what I said here helps you in your future love life. I think you fucked up big time but am very sorry you lost someone you cared about. I've made similar mistakes myself. If you never get forgiven, at least you have this experience to help you make better decisions in the future. Perhaps next time you will have to be the one doing the forgiving.

Not if they're being honest. Many of them try to make their stories conform to a heterosexist mould so as not to "offend", not to present something the heterosexuals could from their narrow perspective judge them for. "Oh, Mark and I met through some friends" is so much more palatable at the dinner party with the other suburbian couples than "I didn't know his name until after he took the gag out".
Gimme a break.

You are ragging on the straights for being oh-so-clueless about the wondrous kinky workings of gay culture, yet you seem totally oblivious to the fact that heteros are up to their nipple clamps in kinky just as often as queers.

Gimme a break.

You are ragging on the straights for being oh-so-clueless about the wondrous kinky workings of gay culture, yet you seem totally oblivious to the fact that heteros are up to their nipple clamps in kinky just as often as queers.

Not to mention that friendships between gay and hetro people are actualy not uncommon, and we all like to talk about sex in the pub.

Not to mention that friendships between gay and hetro people are actualy not uncommon, and we all like to talk about sex in the pub.
Yeah, I don't think most straight people are half as "straight" as Fass seems to think. Kinsey would giggle.

If your thing is frequenting clubs where you're naked and sucking dick before you know the name of whomever is attached to the dick, then that's all well and good for you...but that's not a "sexual orientation." That's a lifestyle. There are plenty of heterosexuals who are into that sort of thing, and there are also plenty of homosexuals into that sort of thing.

This is to be distinguished from all the "gay lifestyle" crap you hear from the anti-gay activists. When the fag-haters talk about the "gay lifestyle," they're full of shit because they are referring to homosexuality in its entirety. But being gay/straight/whatever is about the type of person you are attracted to. Your "sexual lifestyle" is how you choose to go about pursuing your sexual interests.

There are plenty of queers who have vanilla sex lives, and there are plenty of straights who get off on sticking godknowswhat into godknowswhere while being watched by godknowshowmany barnyard animals. And vice versa.

To get back closer to the original OP, "cheating" is not a sexual orientation. Blaming your bad choices on your sexual orientation is almost as funny as it is pathetic.

(I'm currently working on the subject of us going skydiving, to give a reverse example.)

This might help convince your boyfriend. Skydiving isn't dangerous. It was at one time. There's been only two tandem deaths in the past 20 years in the US (as far as I can recall). The people who die in the sport are experienced people who know better, but make a bad decsion anyway. The number one killer in the sport by a large margin is a low turn to the ground. Somehow, people with thousands of jumps forget the physics of canopy flight.

There were 46 deaths last year world wide. 11 in the US. 3 were hard landings 4 were mid air collisions, 1 was a heart attack, 1 was a low reserve opening, 1 person didn't cut away a malfunction in time, and 1 has a main/reserve entanglement. All but the heart attack (which could happen anywhere) were easily avoidable.

46 deaths out of the millions and millions of jumps made ever year is inconsequential.

If you want more info go to USPA.org. Stay away from dropzone.com (full of 20 jump wonders that have no idea what tthey are talking about). And what ever you do, do not book with 1800-skyride. They are a scam. Make sure you are talking to the dropzone directly and not a booking agency. Also, make sure the dropzone you go to is a USPA member (found on the USPA website).

Are the prostitutes WOMEN?

Gee whiz. Then let's think about that.

"Hetero men have more partners than hetero women, as long as we state up front that a chunk of the female population doesn't count."Well, I may be mistaken, but I thought the point of the post was about cheating. And people that have sex as occupation aren't cheating.

If I read an intention into your post that wasn't there, I apologize; I'll happily admit that:
hetero males cannot have more partners, on average, than hetero females, unless the males are having MALE partners (or are raping and counting their victims as partners).But there is more to consider in the case of infidelity.

You think the poll is about me? You think just because someone later on brought up something similar, but most certainly not identical, that happened in my life - that the OP is some sort of personal confessional and appeal to popularity? It's just a poll! It's not about me. The discussion where some people wondered about a thing that happened in my life came after the OP and isn't all that related to it apart from the subject matter. Somewhere along the line, people seem to have muddied the two and started posting all sorts of demented "conclusions" about me just because I shared - as I've already said - a very, very small amount of information about my personal circumstances unrelated to the frickin' poll. That is what I am "arguing" with you people about now and trying to tell you that you have no clue - no standing whatsoever - to even attempt to draw these conclusions and that it is quite puerile of you not to realise that.

Oh for fuck's sake, grow up. If you must throw tantrums and stomp your foot and generally be a pain the ass for no reason to people right now, go ahead.

Stunts like the one in "fat/skinny" thread are pathetic enough and you so totally know it because your "debating" in that one was ludicrous beyond belief and nothing more than spewing bile for the sake of spewing bile at random people.

But to come in here and post that - that takes the cake. You've always been a prick, in a good sense, but you've never been a snivelling liar before.

Just because you screwed up something that you rather hadn't and suddenly realized you don't really want to have people talking about it splashed all over the front page of General after all doesn't mean you didn't post this thread in the first place. It's there, so deal with it. Letting it die would have been a good idea instead of coming back and making shit up.

You're insulting our intelligence, you're insulting your own and, worst, you're insulting your friends. And I don't give a flying fuck that we're not actually "friends" or even so much as actual acquaintances but you know fucking exactly what I mean. So fucking don't.

But to come in here and post that - that takes the cake. You've always been a prick, in a good sense, but you've never been a snivelling liar before.

And I wish I could say you've never acted this pathetic before, but there you go. What is it, are you disappointed because you thought I was "sharing" oh, so much with you and that somehow we'd become these deranged "Internet buddies" you seem to like to imagine you are with people because I posted a poll and you sent a superfluous TG? Is that it? That you didn't get the whole story and now that the story you constructed doesn't reflect what actually happened and that you will never know the facts and that I will never share them? Because you don't get to be my "confidant"? Snap the fuck out of it - if you think I'd share something which pains oh, so much with people here without omitting all the pertinent and sensitive and valuable details, then you know me even less than I know you do and you should really know deep down inside, too.

Just because you screwed up something that you rather hadn't and suddenly realized you don't really want to have people talking about it splashed all over the front page of General after all doesn't mean you didn't post this thread in the first place. It's there, so deal with it. Letting it die would have been a good idea instead of coming back and making shit up.

Oh, get it through your skull already: the poll is a poll. I don't start polls about my personal life - they might have connections with something that happens in it, but they're not gonna be about it and I am not going to spill my guts to you, and don't fucking delude yourself that I did. I'm not you.

You're insulting our intelligence,

You flatter your company.

you're insulting your own and, worst, you're insulting your friends. And I don't give a flying fuck that we're not actually "friends" or even so much as actual acquaintances but you know fucking exactly what I mean. So fucking don't.

"Exactly what I mean" - no I don't, because I couldn't give a shit. Apart from two, three people on these boards - coincidentally two people smart enough to have realised that the poll and what went on later (which I clearly said was not at discussion, and they managed to read it - imagine if you had, too, then you wouldn't be accusing me of being a liar because you feel apparently pathetically cheated over your own lack of reading what has been written) weren't reflective and dependent on one another - I really couldn't give a shit about anyone else here. Certainly not you. So again, snap out of it.

oooh - a cat fight...

You know, Fass, for a long time I've respected you. I liked you. I thought that despite the constant anger you were a person worth paying attention to. You often teach through a way that makes me mad, but what you teach is worth listening to certainly.

Hell, I even feel a lot of sympathy for your own case that was vaguely related to the original topic of this thread. I was even going to post at some point saying that had I been the partner in your situation I'd have forgiven you, but I knew you either wouldn't take it as it was meant--friendly sympathy--or you wouldn't allow yourself to show taking it as it was meant publicly, so to avoid a scene I chose against it.

But now? Now you're acting like a bloody three year old. You're being pathetic, Fass. Grow up! You're four years older than I am! Get over yourself and stop treating everyone like dirtbags. The internet is not your personal "insult-everyone!" playground. If you're going to do these things, we will fight back, so don't you DARE act like a three year old "But mommy!!!" when we do.

If you want to have sex on the side, have an open relationship.

As far as I'm concerned, there's no excuse for cheating, whether you're hetero or homo or whatever the fuck you are.

You're being a dick, man.

I know, politically, I'm not the most popular on these boards, but it's obvious that many people were just trying to help and state their opinions on something you obviously wanted opinions stated on, since you posted it on the internet and dragged it on.

And for some reason, you just freaked out and lost it. Who knows why, but just relax and maybe respect people just a little more. It's one thing to be an ass to certain people for political viewpoints or whatever, but it's another thing to just be a straight up dick to the world. Grow up, dude.

Assumed monogamy sucks.

Fass, why do you have to be so god damn argumentative.

Anyone asking why this thread hasn't closed yet?

Per OP: got little else to add, other than the proof is in the pudding.
Nice show.

Anyone asking why this thread hasn't closed yet?

Per OP: got little else to add, other than the proof is in the pudding.
Nice show.

I also feel it should be closed as well as genuinely apologizing to Fassigen for the thread devolving as such.

I also feel it should be closed as well as genuinely apologizing to Fassigen for the thread devolving as such.

How do you mean, "devolving", if you don't mind me asking?
I may be misinterpreting you.

How do you mean, "devolving", if you don't mind me asking?
I may be misinterpreting you.

Instead of evolving into an impersonal discussion on people's attitudes, it devolved into personal remarks on a single person.

Instead of evolving into an impersonal discussion on people's attitudes, it devolved into personal remarks on a single person.

Oh.
I find, given certain posters' priorities, that there's no way to avoid that eventuality. I expected as much from this thread, and i certainly wasn't disappointed.

As not to sound the same as what you're expressing, it's hard for me not to say what's already been said about it.

I simply feel that honesty is crucial in a relationship. If you're not the type to settle down with one person, stay in the dating scene (whatever that may be). If there's perks, hopefully they can appreciate you the same way, and perhaps it'll grow from both mutual honesty and respect.
If not, expect that at the very least you got to know someone else a little better and perhaps yourself in the process.

As far as whining to other people about your own lack of integrity, well, tough shit. Don't expect sympathy of any kind.
It kinda points out the importance of honesty.

May sound simplistic, but i'm not speaking without experience here.

If you truly love someone, you're capacity for forgiveness appears limitless. But, at some point, an action by one party can force the other to make a decision that requires them to sacrifice their own welfare for that of their lvoed one. An affair is such a situation. The question should not be "should they forgive me" but "how can I ask them for forgiveness".

If you truly love someone, you're capacity for forgiveness appears limitless. But, at some point, an action by one party can force the other to make a decision that requires them to sacrifice their own welfare for that of their lvoed one. An affair is such a situation. The question should not be "should they forgive me" but "how can I ask them for forgiveness".
Well put.
*bows*

Wow....I'm suprised this thread is still open, I haven't seen this much heated words since well....ever.

Trust is a fragile thing, so easy to break, and it's very hard to gain, and to gain back. The act of cheating itself is not the problem, the problem is that the act betrays such a fragile and near impossible to reattained item.

I felt like being poetic.....sue me.....

Instead of evolving into an impersonal discussion on people's attitudes, it devolved into personal remarks on a single person.
Which really is too bad, because the topic is a very interesting one.

I particularly think it's interesting to talk about fidelity issues along side discussion of homosexuality/heterosexuality, because the entire mess is wrapped with the debate over traditionalism and how we view sexual behaviors. It's a fun topic that I would have liked to pursue more, but at this point I'm guessing a lock is impending...

If you think you love someone, you're capacity for stupidity appears limitless.

Corrected.

If you truly love someone, you're capacity for forgiveness appears limitless. But, at some point, an action by one party can force the other to make a decision that requires them to sacrifice their own welfare for that of their lvoed one. An affair is such a situation. The question should not be "should they forgive me" but "how can I ask them for forgiveness".

I agree with this. I can forgive someone I care about - even someone who has hurt me deeply. But the real question would be whether or not it would be healthy for me to stay in a relationship with them, or if I should cut it off. And the answer to that question would have to come from a number of factors. One of those factors would be the way in which I found out about it and the reaction of the cheating partner. Is that person truly remorseful? Can we figure out an issue we need to work on in the relationship to prevent it from happening again? Does the event lead to an issue of projection in which he suddenly distrusts me (I've seen instances in couples where the cheater is actually the one who is insanely jealous)? And so on....