NationStates Jolt Archive

Hahaha ALMOST funny! :rolleyes:

Right, like "lol rap and crap" is funny? Funny enough for you to cheerlead and hee-haw over, I guess. But after junior high school that gets old and it was never clever to begin with.

I was mocking his point about why he hates rap music.

According to Wikipedia, the music was dancehall. Dancehall/electronic fans are weird. Dancehall especially makes no sense, it takes songs, any songs, and puts them to about the same electronic beats. Anything can be dancehall. "Sizable hit" would probably require some perspective. To say they used Gregorian Chants in a dancehall format to get a "sizable hit" is a bit exaggerated because the Gregorian Chant as music itself was probably irrelevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_(musical_project)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number-one_dance_hits_of_1991_%28USA%29

A #1 dance hit, given the ephemeral nature of dance music, is sizeable. At least two dozen movie credits. You have no idea what the people in Enigma thought the relevance of the chants they were using were. You're reaching.

From http://www.gohastings.com/catalog/item/item.asp?prodid=140502238, about The Benedictine Monks of Santo Domingo de Silos.

"Floating enigmatically above the rarified pastures of the Billboard Top 10 (only recently visited by the THREE TENORS), CHANT is unquestionably the most remarkable chart success of 1994--selling in unparalleled numbers for a medieval recording."

Hardly irrelevant.

In order for music to have qualities defined by race it must contain DNA. Since it doesnt it is impossible for music to be defined in any way by race and doing so is a misapplication, allegorically or otherwise.

It can't be a misapplication if I'm using it metaphorically. Human beings can be classified into races. Music can be classified into genres. When one disparages an entire race because of a few examples of that race, one is a racist. When one disparages an entire genre based on a few examples of that genre, I decided to call that person a "musical racist" because I could think of no more accurate terms.

Again, I ask that you provide me with a better one if you have it. If you don't, then please stop being deliberately obtuse because you don't like my choice of words. I'm done arguing about this unless you've come up with that better term. Thanks.

NOTE: Either Jolt is really screwy and double-posted you some four posts apart, or you reposted this quoted post.

What is the "Nation of Islam"? I thought Islam was a religion, not a country.

:confused:

Does nobody -- while actually seated at a computer -- look anything up for themselves? Good grief.

http://www.noi.org/

I like rap and hip-hop from back in the 80s. Today's stuff though, is just rehashing the rehashed. Its been done to death.

First, "race" is mostly a social construct based on stereotypical and, often, non-existent differences. Not DNA.

Really? Odd i searched many definitions of race in the dictionary and it didnt mention stereotypes nor nonexistent differences at all, not even once. In fact Im not even sure what a nonexistennt difference even means frankly. Did you mean to say same?

Second, anything can have "qualities defined by race," if that is the cultural norm. For example, white nationalist symbols do not have DNA, yet possess qualities defined by the concept of race.

Im saying that it isnt a cultural norm to use race in this fashion, in fact im argueing the opposite and saying that its being culturally misused by a minority of people. A Confederate flag has no inherent racial qualities of any kind. It is made of cotton, dyes and a pole. These are the ONLY qualities it possesses. Something being a Symbol of someones race is a far different arguement then saying inanimate objects contain elements of race themselves.

Given the above it's completely possible to have "black music" or "white music" or "jewish music."

Please define and give examples of "white muic" or "black music" No such thing exists. There are artists that happen to be white, there are artists that happen to be black. There is no "black or white music" however. It is music. Period. Any artificial racial constructs you add to it are just that.

I try not to think about rap...

I don't like it on the overall simply because of the themes that dominate it... some raps are about the right things.. some are just dumb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_(musical_project)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number-one_dance_hits_of_1991_%28USA%29

A #1 dance hit, given the ephemeral nature of dance music, is sizeable. At least two dozen movie credits. You have no idea what the people in Enigma thought the relevance of the chants they were using were. You're reaching.
You misunderstood me. Being a dance hit, the Gregorian Chant inclusion is almost wholly irrelevant. You can take anything, any song and group, and turn it into dancehall. The original music is no longer the focus but just an inclusion and the new song really has nothing to do with the old song but is just some rehashing of the old music over the standardized dancehall beat.


From http://www.gohastings.com/catalog/item/item.asp?prodid=140502238, about The Benedictine Monks of Santo Domingo de Silos.

"Floating enigmatically above the rarified pastures of the Billboard Top 10 (only recently visited by the THREE TENORS), CHANT is unquestionably the most remarkable chart success of 1994--selling in unparalleled numbers for a medieval recording."

Hardly irrelevant.
That link doesn't work.

Mainstream rap I don't like, though some nerd core rap is pretty awesome.

I can't say I hate or like all of it, there's shit in every genre and there's amazing artists in every genre. You seem to be using a blanket statement.

Meh. It relies on words for expression. Good music is completely aesthetically pleasing, and retains all its expressive power, even if the vocals are in a foreign language or there aren't any. Rap in a foreign language is kind of pointless.

You: "Hey, I hate rap - it isn't music and it objectifies women and encourages violence."
I never said that. You're just making things up. The reasoning behind the shooting of a rapper was clearly stated on the shirt as being in order to 'Support The Fine Arts' it had nothing to do with women.

That makes it neither amusing nor makes you any less of an elitist hypocrite. Depends on your sense of humour.

I never said that. You're just making things up. The reasoning behind the shooting of a rapper was clearly stated on the shirt as being in order to 'Support The Fine Arts' it had nothing to do with women.
Fine arts? Have any of those been produced in the last 50 years?

Fine arts? Have any of those been produced in the last 50 years?
That depends entirely on what you consider to be a fine art.

Rap is going down hill, and this is coming from the point of view of a rap fan. Rap was so good 10+ years ago. Now, it's not so great.

IMO there are only two rappers worth listening to, and one of them is dead. Other then that, it is 99% rubbish.

Rap is going down hill, and this is coming from the point of view of a rap fan. Rap was so good 10+ years ago. Now, it's not so great.

IMO there are only two rappers worth listening to, and one of them is dead. Other then that, it is 99% rubbish.
Coming from "Westcoast Thugs." Your name says what has been wrong with rap and what is increasingly wrong with rap.

Coming from "Westcoast Thugs." Your name says what has been wrong with rap and what is increasingly wrong with rap.

Care to explain? Or do you enjoy just make short stupid statements with nothing to back it up with.

Instead of just taking a shot at me why don't you explain your opinions.

Really? Odd i searched many definitions of race in the dictionary and it didnt mention stereotypes nor nonexistent differences at all, not even once.

Oh, the dictionary didn't mention racial stereotypes?

Gosh, then there must be none!

In fact Im not even sure what a nonexistennt difference even means frankly. Did you mean to say same?

A nonexistent difference would be a difference that is claimed to exist, but doesn't. Your attempts at being witty only come across as making you look slow.

Im saying that it isnt a cultural norm to use race in this fashion, in fact im argueing the opposite and saying that its being culturally misused by a minority of people. A Confederate flag has no inherent racial qualities of any kind. It is made of cotton, dyes and a pole. These are the ONLY qualities it possesses. Something being a Symbol of someones race is a far different arguement then saying inanimate objects contain elements of race themselves.

Now we're getting into semantics. You're trying to be ultra-literal, because your argument says that something cannot be of or relating to race without containing DNA. That's an artificial way of looking at things; symbols and culture and connotation make up a huge portion of human reality.

Please define and give examples of "white muic" or "black music" No such thing exists. There are artists that happen to be white, there are artists that happen to be black. There is no "black or white music" however. It is music. Period. Any artificial racial constructs you add to it are just that.

...that's funny, I looked up race and it said nothing about artificial constructs!! Gosh!

Care to explain? Or do you enjoy just make short stupid statements with nothing to back it up with.

Instead of just taking a shot at me why don't you explain your opinions.
The west coast/eat coast rivalry was the founding and encouragement of gangsta rap which, while elevating the awareness of rap, has resulted in the commercialized crap we see today where everyone is going around rapping about how they are a thug and women and money.

Not only do I win because I proved you wrong, I win by default because you refuse to even look at the evidence.

That's generally how these threads about rap go. No matter how many Youtube links we post of good rap, people will never, ever listen to them. Personally, I think they're afraid they might like it.

You misunderstood me. Being a dance hit, the Gregorian Chant inclusion is almost wholly irrelevant. You can take anything, any song and group, and turn it into dancehall. The original music is no longer the focus but just an inclusion and the new song really has nothing to do with the old song but is just some rehashing of the old music over the standardized dancehall beat.


That link doesn't work.

Once again, you have no idea what Enigma thought as they were crafting their CD. If you can link me to an article where the musicians themselves admit that the fact that it was plainchant didn't matter, I'll buy it. Until then, you're spitballing, and ignoring the Benedictine Monks of Santo Domingo de Silos recording's 1994 success.

Sorry about the link -- it worked yesterday. Weird. Just google the name of the monks, something will come up that works.

Meh. It relies on words for expression. Good music is completely aesthetically pleasing, and retains all its expressive power, even if the vocals are in a foreign language or there aren't any. Rap in a foreign language is kind of pointless.

Uh...not to the people who speak that language (I actually had to type that).

Once again, you have no idea what Enigma thought as they were crafting their CD. If you can link me to an article where the musicians themselves admit that the fact that it was plainchant didn't matter, I'll buy it. Until then, you're spitballing, and ignoring the Benedictine Monks of Santo Domingo de Silos recording's 1994 success.

Are we talking about Enigma or the monks of Santo Domingo? Your incessant need to combine the two is making it increasingly confusing.

Are we talking about Enigma or the monks of Santo Domingo? Your incessant need to combine the two is making it increasingly confusing.

You're being deliberately evasive because you've been shown to be wrong. That's understandable. I'll explain. I mentioned both because you seemed to think that chant was an irrelevant choice for Enigma to make. I say it isn't because of the short but intense bout of popularity enjoyed by chant in 1994-1995.

You know what? I've completely lost interest in this debate. It's like continuing a game of Civilization after you've conquered the world. Pointless.

You're being deliberately evasive because you've been shown to be wrong. That's understandable. I'll explain. I mentioned both because you seemed to think that chant was an irrelevant choice for Enigma to make.
Wrong. I'm saying the music the dancehall is derived from is irrelevant to the resulting music. The end song is dancehall, not Gregorian Chant. You can stop trying to make the group Enigma de Santo Domingo de Silos.

[quote]...that's funny, I looked up race and it said nothing about artificial constructs!! Gosh!

You were the one that introcuced the notion of "white and black music" into this discussion not me. All i ask is for you to explain and define your own terms. And if you could please privide songs as an example. Seems a reasonable request. Thanks.

Meh. It relies on words for expression. Good music is completely aesthetically pleasing, and retains all its expressive power, even if the vocals are in a foreign language or there aren't any. Rap in a foreign language is kind of pointless.

Kinda like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofOAdYPpz5Y&mode=related&search=

Centuries of musical evolution and what is the end result? Rap, garage, trance. It won't be long before all the old composers return from the dead and go on a zombie rampage to teach mankind a lesson. Oh Mozart, why have we forsaken thee?

Centuries of musical evolution and what is the end result?

a truly massive and diverse assortment of musical genres, styles, and varieties so that there is something that appeals to everyone?

[QUOTE=Greater Trostia;12876687]
You were the one that introcuced the notion of "white and black music" into this discussion not me. All i ask is for you to explain and define your own terms.

As I already said, and explained, they're not my terms, but they do exist. You're trying to say they can't possibly exist because music doesn't have DNA. And that's stupid; it's like saying Chinese food can't exist because the beef has the same DNA as any other type of food.

I'm not going to repeat myself again and again just because you failed to pick it up the first time around.

a truly massive and diverse assortment of musical genres, styles, and varieties so that there is something that appeals to everyone?

Garage, rap and trance are not music: they are merely loud, formless, ugly noise listened to by youths who have neither taste nor cultivation. They take zero talent to make, which explains why all pieces are soulless, unemotive corporate garbage.

Centuries of musical evolution and what is the end result? Rap, garage, trance. It won't be long before all the old composers return from the dead and go on a zombie rampage to teach mankind a lesson. Oh Mozart, why have we forsaken thee?

We haven't. Mozart is performed thousands of times every year by orchestras, choirs, ensembles and soloists around the entire world. He's not in any danger. What you're lamenting is that the "old composers" aren't in the "Top 40", and that, forgive my rudeness, is an ignorant lament. The old composers were popular in (or sometimes after) their time, and continue to be played -- the venue hasn't even changed.

Society has. The advent of electronic/digital entertainment means that the concert hall or opera house is no longer the sole source for mass entertainment. So long as there are music programs in schools (God willing), there will be an audience for Mozart and the legion of dead composers. (That last sounds like a comic book just WAITING to happen! "Legion of Dead Composers, ARISE!")

Garage, rap and trance are not music: they are merely loud, formless, ugly noise listened to by youths who have neither taste nor cultivation. They take zero talent to make, which explains why most pieces are soulless, unemotive corporate garbage.

That bolded statement invalidates your thesis. If "most" of something qualifies as "not music", it all can't be "not music".

For the nth time: Distaste for a genre does not mean the genre isn't music.

Now, as for "youths who have neither taste nor cultivation", that's subjective...I agree with you, on average, but still...it's subjective.

That bolded statement invalidates your thesis. If "most" of something qualifies as "not music", it all can't be "not music".


Yes, you are correct, I have edited my post so that my views are stated more clearly.

For the nth time: Distaste for a genre does not mean the genre isn't music

That is subjective as well.

That is subjective as well.

Actually, no.

Music can be defined by its constituent parts. Sound, silence and time. The barest definition I can conjure is this: music is the deliberate creation or framing of sounds and silences in time.

Creation, for those who write music, and framing for those who find it and either enjoy it or capture it as a musical instance. Either way, there is involved a percipient (someone who senses it).

Saying something "isn't music" is a ruse used by those who are really saying "it isn't acceptable to my sense of taste" -- which takes longer to say and requires an admission that someone else just might dig it.

You don't have to like it. Thankfully, nobody's preferences are in ANY given definition of music besides possibly their own personal definition.

EDIT: Careful, man, you wouldn't want to be thought of as nekulturny, would you?

That is subjective as well.
No, wrong. Try again.