NationStates Jolt Archive

You know the procedure fill out the poll and leave any input on file #23918RE231B, which you got from Reintroducing the Concept of Classical Music to Certain Parts of NS line.

I'm not into it.

Some moron forgot to put the c in front of the name. That sums my opinion up pretty well.

I would like to correct a poll option: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, & Me beats up Snoop Dog any day.

Points to anyone who gets the refference.

Some moron forgot to put the c in front of the name. That sums my opinion up pretty well.Good point.;)

I would like to correct a poll option: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, & Me beats up Snoop Dog any day.

Points to anyone who gets the refference.Know I forgot someone famous, and it is Bach and not you.

believe it or not: Some is quite accceptable and does not sound that bad. If they can find other topics to rap about than rapping.

believe it or not: Some is quite accceptable and does not sound that bad. If they can find other topics to rap about than rapping.

Anyone who discounts any one particular form of music does not actually appreciate music.

Scientific fact.

Every artist on their own merit thanks - love aspects of them all.

(as in, I agree with you)

Some moron forgot to put the c in front of the name. That sums my opinion up pretty well.

I have to agree.
I might understand that rap COULD have started as a sort of spontaneous artistical expression of the ghettos, but, to-day, 99.999% of the rap that is broadcasted by the radio and the TV is nothing more that some half-criminals exploiting the fact that their skin is darker than that of an arab, to suck a lot of money from other, poorer black youngsters.

I have to agree.
I might understand that rap COULD have started as a sort of spontaneous artistical expression of the ghettos, but, to-day, 99.999% of the rap that is broadcasted by the radio and the TV is nothing more that some half-criminals exploiting the fact that their skin is darker than that of an arab, to suck a lot of money from other, poorer black youngsters.

....but just because of who he was, you can't say some of Hitler's 'Lake Scenes at Twilight' weren't extraordinary in their capture of light?

The artist should not detract from the art?

*The Hitler bit is a lie

....but just because of who he was, you can't say some of Hitler's 'Lake Scenes at Twilight' weren't extraordinary in their capture of light?

The artist should not detract from the art?

*The Hitler bit is a lie

Yeah, Hitler's paintings are very meh.

Anyone who discounts any one particular form of music does not actually appreciate music.

Scientific fact.

Every artist on their own merit thanks - love aspects of them all.

(as in, I agree with you)
Well, to be entirely fair, I do enjoy two Afroman songs for their comedic value. However, other then those two, every rap song I've listened to is utter rubbish.

I have to agree.
I might understand that rap COULD have started as a sort of spontaneous artistical expression of the ghettos, but, to-day, 99.999% of the rap that is broadcasted by the radio and the TV is nothing more that some half-criminals exploiting the fact that their skin is darker than that of an arab, to suck a lot of money from other, poorer black youngsters.

Okay--take all the racial crap out of there and tell me what the difference is between commercialized rap and commercialized pop, or rock, or country music. Seriously--what's the difference?

Like any other genre, most rap is self-referential, materialistic, shallow crap. But the good stuff--aah, if you ferret it out, there's some slamming stuff. And if you go back to the early days, there's something real in there.

Okay--take all the racial crap out of there and tell me what the difference is between commercialized rap and commercialized pop, or rock, or country music. Seriously--what's the difference?

Like any other genre, most rap is self-referential, materialistic, shallow crap. But the good stuff--aah, if you ferret it out, there's some slamming stuff. And if you go back to the early days, there's something real in there.

Exactly, how can anyone not enjoy a l'il bit of De La Soul?

Just to dismiss a genre outright is close-minded and I thought we were all open-minded people here?

Ah ha ha ha - oh dear.

Yeah, Hitler's paintings are very meh.

Some of them are all right. His drawings (and everything else about him) sucked, though.

Exactly, how can anyone not enjoy a l'il bit of De La Soul?

Just to dismiss a genre outright is close-minded and I thought we were all open-minded people here?

Ah ha ha ha - oh dear.

Hey man, I still bounce to a little Jurassic 5 every now and then. And as far as contemporary stuff is concerned, Boots Riley of The Coup fucking rocks. So do The Roots, and Lifesavas, and a bunch of others.

Hey man, I still bounce to a little Jurassic 5 every now and then. And as far as contemporary stuff is concerned, Boots Riley of The Coup fucking rocks. So do The Roots, and Lifesavas, and a bunch of others.

The fact is that music is an evolving fusion of genres, if you don't keep up with all forms you don't keep up with music.

I wonder if, genetically, some people are open to greater forms of music than others, I can't think why but perhaps some brains can only accept basic tones and rhythms and anything more is simply cacophony.

Perhaps that's why kids enjoy pop, simple melodies and simple hooks, until they can fully appreciate more.

Is there a limit for some people as to what some people can listen to in the way that some people might only be able to read to a certain level? Dyslexia of the ears for example.

The fact is that music is an evolving fusion of genres, if you don't keep up with all forms you don't keep up with music.

I wonder if, genetically, some people are open to greater forms of music than others, I can't think why but perhaps some brains can only accept basic tones and rhythms and anything more is simply cacophony.

Perhaps that's why kids enjoy pop, simple melodies and simple hooks, until they can fully appreciate more.

Is there a limit for some people as to what some people can listen to in the way that some people might only be able to read to a certain level? Dyslexia of the ears for example.

That's silly. People are predisposed towards liking things because of the musical environment they grow up in, not because they are genetically predisposed to be open to all different kinds of music. That would totally ignore those of us who think that rap sounds stupid, for the most part, but like other genres that take off from the normal cultural shared melodic concept.

I don't like singing, and much prefer songs that have none of it, so rap is just about the complete opposite of what I enjoy.

I guess I have a simple brain? I don't like pop music, though, so perhaps the "music idiot" theory needs some work.

That's silly. People are predisposed towards liking things because of the musical environment they grow up in, not because they are genetically predisposed to be open to all different kinds of music. That would totally ignore those of us who think that rap sounds stupid, for the most part, but like other genres that take off from the normal cultural shared melodic concept.

I'm giving a huge nod to cultural factors of course, but some people don't like onions and...well I'm losing it here I guess.

Yet some people have perfect tone - that's genetic or isn't it, shouldn't it have an effect on the sort of music they like, or the range.

Just a little bit of genes?

Originally posted by Cola Drinkers - I don't like singing, and much prefer songs that have none of it, so rap is just about the complete opposite of what I enjoy.

I guess I have a simple brain? I don't like pop music, though, so perhaps the "music idiot" theory needs some work.

I suspect the 'music idiot' theory needs a lot of work, however, that is now the working title of my thesis :)

Just to dismiss a genre outright is close-minded and I thought we were all open-minded people here?

Ah ha ha ha - oh dear.
I would love to see you listen to cambodian music for a few hours straight. There still can be taste differences which make one genre almost entirely unacceptable. And if you do not like 99% of a certain genre, you can say 'I do not like $genre'

I'm giving a huge nod to cultural factors of course, but some people don't like onions and...well I'm losing it here I guess.

Yet some people have perfect tone - that's genetic or isn't it, shouldn't it have an effect on the sort of music they like, or the range.

People tell me that perfect pitch is genetic, but I have yet to see reason to beleive that. More often than not, people who have perfect pitch have learned that pitch from exposure. Why would anyone have perfect pitch to artificial constructs off of the 8-tone scale?

As a wise man once said: "Metal up your arse!"

As another wise man said: "You can't spell CRAP without RAP"

OK let me clarify. Rap, when its genuine stuff (NWA, Public Enemy, Grandmaster Flash, Hilltop Hoods) is good to listen to but today's rap is all the same because almost all of the songs are about (naked) girls, cars, diamonds and "bustin' a cap on yo' ass".

Currently listening to "Seek And Destroy" by Metallica

\m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/

I would love to see you listen to cambodian music for a few hours straight. There still can be taste differences which make one genre almost entirely unacceptable. And if you do not like 99% of a certain genre, you can say 'I do not like $genre'

I'm sure if I listened to Cambodian music, and living as I do in HK I've probably already listened to similar, that I could find enjoyment in different aspects of it. To dismiss the entire genre is close-minded.

People tell me that perfect pitch is genetic, but I have yet to see reason to beleive that. More often than not, people who have perfect pitch have learned that pitch from exposure. Why would anyone have perfect pitch to artificial constructs off of the 8-tone scale?

Wah, I don't know about this - is middle C totally artificial or is it inherently pleasing to the ear. Yet being able to accurately judge equal wavelength regardless of pitch is still perfect pitch, I can see it might not be genetic though.

This does pique my interest.

Wah, I don't know about this - is middle C totally artificial or is it inherently pleasing to the ear. Yet being able to accurately judge equal wavelength regardless of pitch is still perfect pitch, I can see it might not be genetic though.

This does pique my interest.

Given that the concept of middle C only exists because of it's placement on a keyboard, the concept is artificial.

Given that the concept of middle C only exists because of it's placement on a keyboard, the concept is artificial.

Understood, but perfect pitch can start at any amm...pitch - so to accurately rise through pitches at exactly equal length - is this just a Western thing?

Aren't there people who can instantly play a song by ear, or listen once and sing it out. Is that learned or something inherent?

I just think that some people are likely to be more prone to enjoying all forms of music and some are likely to only enjoy one type of music, just as people have an aptitude for languages.

It's not about someone hearing better or not,

I feel I need to give up on this one as logic is fighting feeling when I think it through.

Understood, but perfect pitch can start at any amm...pitch - so to accurately rise through pitches at exactly equal length - is this just a Western thing?

Aren't there people who can instantly play a song by ear, or listen once and sing it out. Is that learned or something inherent?

I just think that some people are likely to be more prone to enjoying all forms of music and some are likely to only enjoy one type of music, just as people have an aptitude for languages.

It's not about someone hearing better or not,

I feel I need to give up on this one as logic is fighting feeling when I think it through.

I can hear a piece and play it by ear close to immediately and for the first 10 years of my life, my parents thought I was tone deaf. Some people may be able to pick these skills up faster, but it's only through exposure that they can come to understand a scale-set.

....but just because of who he was, you can't say some of Hitler's 'Lake Scenes at Twilight' weren't extraordinary in their capture of light?

The artist should not detract from the art?

*The Hitler bit is a lie

Some artists, although politically and socially despisable (example, Leni Riefenstahl) have produced great artwork (like "Triumph des Willens").
Rap "artists", though, - at least the majority of them, according to what I see on the media - produce work that hasn't a sound aesthetical project in it. Hence, I would refrain from calling it "art" and would place it more in the "commercial" side.
Also, the message that usually passes through the rap is nothing more that "I want to have a lot of money so I can spend it on drugs, prostitutes, firearms and cars". Not exactly the great social values one could expect - or that one could fine in some less recent "black" music, like soul or blues.

I'm sure if I listened to Cambodian music, and living as I do in HK I've probably already listened to similar, that I could find enjoyment in different aspects of it. To dismiss the entire genre is close-minded.


Not liking it is not closed-mindedness. Not wanting to be convinced otherwise is.

BTW: I do think some things are enjoyable about Cambodian music, but it still is the genre I would least likely chose when choosing what to listen for the next 2 hours.

Also, the message that usually passes through the rap is nothing more that "I want to have a lot of money so I can spend it on drugs, prostitutes, firearms and cars". Not exactly the great social values one could expect - or that one could fine in some less recent "black" music, like soul or blues.

Fettes Brot is very witty. I also quite enjoy MC Solaar or Blumentopf and Fantastische Vier. But yeah, american mainstream rap is sometimes... diappointing in topics.

Okay--take all the racial crap out of there and tell me what the difference is between commercialized rap and commercialized pop, or rock, or country music. Seriously--what's the difference?

Nothing. I don't like them, either. Commercialised musics usually sucks - because there is no aesthetical project in it. Well, I say "usually" because I consider also Strauss' waltzer as "commercialised" music, you know. So, really, no racial crap about it, nothing more than the racial crap the rap "artists" themselves put in it.

Like any other genre, most rap is self-referential, materialistic, shallow crap. But the good stuff--aah, if you ferret it out, there's some slamming stuff. And if you go back to the early days, there's something real in there.

I guess so, but it is almost impossible to hear the early-days stuff here in Italy, where the only source of rap is MTV and the like.

I can hear a piece and play it by ear close to immediately and for the first 10 years of my life, my parents thought I was tone deaf. Some people may be able to pick these skills up faster, but it's only through exposure that they can come to understand a scale-set.

Geoffrey Miller, an evolutionary psychologist at the University of New Mexico, has looked at thousands of jazz, rock, and classical music albums and noted the age and sex of the musicians. In every genre of music, he says, men produce about 10 times as much as women, and their output peaks at around age 30 - near the time of their peak reproductive years. "Good musicians, particularly good singers, attract sexual interest," Miller says. "Successful male musicians are notoriously promiscuous and tend to produce a lot of children - and that's how the genes for musical ability tend to be passed on."

Here's (http://www.spiritsound.com/mystery.html) some basic stuff (as in basic enough for me to understand) and Lord knows it's pulled off the Internet, this quote sounds particularly amm...washy, but I still think there's certainly some genetic determination for our ability to create - I'm not sure whether that translates into an ability to appreciate as well.

Not liking it is not closed-mindedness. Not wanting to be convinced otherwise is.

Completely agree

BTW: I do think some things are enjoyable about Cambodian music, but it still is the genre I would least likely chose when choosing what to listen for the next 2 hours.

Peking Opera is also an acquired taste, not something I would choose either but, as with all music, hearing it live in short periods is quite enjoyable, being subjected to it for too long and it's the equivalent of the drip of water on the forehead.

Hearing anything live can change your opinion on any genre - music as standalone loses something, especially when translated to digital format, although the beauty is that there are those albums that simply need to be listened to with good headphones in a small darkened room.

The reason I feel it's genetic is that I get fairly grumpy if I'm isolated from music, any music, for a long period of time (1-2 days) - I can't see where in my upbringing this might come from. I have a need to tap my toes to music.

"Dislike" is most accurate. "Hate" is far too strong - it's just music, after all. Music that is mostly monotone, with few or no changes in pace or volume. Bleh. :p

i don't think much of ANYthing that romantacizes aggressiveness. rap or 'country' (or ...).

on the other hand, when that, or any genre is in the service of political discourse (WITHOUT romantacizing and rewarding aggressiveness in the proccess!), then i think it's doing something to redeam itself.

so i respect 'With Out Reservation' (w.o.r.), at least some of their stuff that i've heard, and like i say, the same goes with any genre, of music or anything else.

=^^=
.../\...

Rap used to be cool before it was perverted by Gangsta' Rap, the kind of rap which glorifies "capping hoes" and whatnot. Which means present rap, is very much... Crap.

Some moron forgot to put the c in front of the name. That sums my opinion up pretty well.

QFT.

Anyone who discounts any one particular form of music does not actually appreciate music.

Scientific fact.

Every artist on their own merit thanks - love aspects of them all.

(as in, I agree with you)

Anyone who makes absolute blanket statements and cites them as fact is daft ;)


(actually I agree as well, Rap's not my thing but some people like it and that' s fine with me...however your statement was false)

What do I think of Rap?

I wish white suburban teenagers would stop buying it.

If their (parents) money didn't fuel the commercialism, we might be seeing some really good stuff coming out of the genre right now.

The rappers themselves are part of the problem. They don't have any problems with the commercialization, and they couldn't care less that their music sucks, because they're making tons of money off of it!

As it is, good stuff is there...but it's obscure, difficult to find, poorly promoted, and never highlighted by mainstream media.

True of most genres, to be fair...and don't expect it to change any time soon. :(

i like it but, it does get boring sometime because all the songs sound kinda the same. lyrically anyways....

OK let me clarify. Rap, when its genuine stuff (NWA, Public Enemy, Grandmaster Flash, Hilltop Hoods) is good to listen to but today's rap is all the same because almost all of the songs are about (naked) girls, cars, diamonds and "bustin' a cap on yo' ass".

They're more hip hop, no? (good though - The Hard Road Restrung is genius)) There is good rap music out there, but it doesn't seem to get played on mainstream media.

I hate it so much you can't try to describe.

What do I think of rap?
The vast majority of the recent stuff is short a letter.

Anyone who discounts any one particular form of music does not actually appreciate music.

Scientific fact.

Every artist on their own merit thanks - love aspects of them all.

(as in, I agree with you)

Back it up. I want sources.

The fact is that music is an evolving fusion of genres, if you don't keep up with all forms you don't keep up with music.

I wonder if, genetically, some people are open to greater forms of music than others, I can't think why but perhaps some brains can only accept basic tones and rhythms and anything more is simply cacophony.

Perhaps that's why kids enjoy pop, simple melodies and simple hooks, until they can fully appreciate more.

Is there a limit for some people as to what some people can listen to in the way that some people might only be able to read to a certain level? Dyslexia of the ears for example.

The fact? or your opinion?

The rappers themselves are part of the problem. They don't have any problems with the commercialization, and they couldn't care less that their music sucks, because they're making tons of money off of it!
Exactly. Some pretend to be conscious of it and then go on to be some of the biggest offenders. Jay-Z is like "Rap has become commercialized crap, I am doing my last album." "What's the title?" "Cappin' Hos on Dubs with Hen."

As it is, good stuff is there...but it's obscure, difficult to find, poorly promoted, and never highlighted by mainstream media.
Exactly. None of it makes the radio and none of the artists are big name and get their own MTV shows or anything and only a fraction of the people know about them that know about other artists.

Is the last option in the poll pro or anti rap? That sounds like something the Beastie Boys would do... if they wern't in their 40s.
Gettin' Ill Over the Hill coming in 2011.

I hate rap. Always have, and always will.

Metal forever!

Rap is a form of poetry.

Some of it is quite good, and some of it sucks. Like most things, it varies in quality.

I do think it has an edge over most "modern poetry" in that it is made to please a fairly general audience.

Most "modern poetry" is written by degreed professionals whose only motivation (aside from fueling their pretentions) is to satisfy the conditions of grants.

Poetry sales, such as they are, are in the toilet. Most "modern poets" are supported by grants, and have no motivation or desire to write poetry that might possible resemble "popular" or "mainstream" stuff.

That's left to greeting card writers and rap artists.

In the days of Walt Whitman, he was ACTUALLY popular. Not because people were so literate, but because he wasn't a pretentious ass.

I hate rap. Always have, and always will.

Metal forever!
Wouldn't have expected that from "Trollgaard" :rolleyes:

Rap is a form of poetry.

Some of it is quite good, and some of it sucks. Like most things, it varies in quality.

I do think it has an edge over most "modern poetry" in that it is made to please a fairly general audience.

Most "modern poetry" is written by degreed professionals whose only motivation (aside from fueling their pretentions) is to satisfy the conditions of grants.

Poetry sales, such as they are, are in the toilet. Most "modern poets" are supported by grants, and have no motivation or desire to write poetry that might possible resemble "popular" or "mainstream" stuff.

That's left to greeting card writers and rap artists.

In the days of Walt Whitman, he was ACTUALLY popular. Not because people were so literate, but because he wasn't a pretentious ass.

rap is not poetry. it is just a bunch of curses and derogetory terms put to an electronic beat. it is hardly music.

My opinion:

Most rap sucks, some of it is good. On occassion it is great.

rap is not poetry. it is just a bunch of curses and derogetory terms put to an electronic beat. it is hardly music.

You should get out more.

The lyrics to "High Roller" by Ice-T (yeah, I know he's old school)

Speed of life fast it's like walkin' barefoot over broken glass
It's like jumpin' rope on a razor blade
All lightning quick decisions are made
Lifestyle plush females rush
This high profile personality who earns his pay illegally
Professional liar schoolboys admire
Young girls desire very few live to retire
Cash flow extreme dress code supreme vocabulary obscene
Definition street player you know what I mean

The high rollers (x2)

People of the city,stop foolin' yourself
Crime rules the streets,who the hell else
All the police have gone out to play
Because for enough cold cash they'll look the other way
Just look at the cars as they go by
Benz,Ferraris,trucks up high
Beepers connecting players to big-time deals
With all of this technology who needs to steal
Just live a life of leisure every night and day
And you're livin' proof that crime does pay
Your life is dangerous and reckless
You eat fly guys and girls for breakfast
You're a titan of the nuclear age
Your muscles flex with a Uzi or 12 gauge
And you love the game,that's why you boast
Because you're high priced,high speed.high post

You're a high roller

High rollers

When I say high rollers,I mean the best
Forget the half-steppers,eject the rest
Because these high ranked officials of our city streets
Make millions all triggered by electric beeps
They dress in diamonds and rope chains
They got the blood of SCARFACE runnin' through their veins
Silk shirts,leather suits,hair always fresh
Eelskin boots,large hearts,though their sizes vary
Bankrolls that take 2 pockets to carry
Cruisin' in their 500 Benz Sedan
With their systems peaked out rockin' PUSHER MAM
Yes,their fashion's high and hard to beat
They buy their GUCCI from GUCCI'S not the swapmeet
Eat very weel,much clientele
And whatever you need,they probably sell

The high rollers (x2)

Oh yes,I'm here to tell you females also roll
Drive the same cars,somethimes wear more gold
Cold as an igloo,or hot as a flame
They'll shake ya,break ya and you won't know their name
Gangsters to the max,all marks will be taxed
These girls drive FERRARIS not CADILLACS
Respect is demanded,most men don't understand it
Till they peep the huge bank that these girls have landed
They're junkies for fun,love life on the run
And if things get hot,they will pull a gun
Prey on the lame,no shame to the game
And they all seek POWER,fuck the fame

The high rollers (x2)

Now radio stations probably won't play
This record because of the things I say
They'll say I'm glamorizing the hustlin' hood
And a record like this can do no good
But I'm not here to tell ya right or wrong
I don't know which side of the law you belong

Yes,the game has flash,but sometimes hurts
Behind any mistake,hard times lurks
And jail's not your only problem,though it may seem
You just may die by a barrage from an M-16
But to each his own,choose the mobile phone
The tailored suit,the luxury home
You'll never get caught,'cause you got nerves of ice
And you're much smarter than those crooks on Miami Vice
Right
You wanta be a high roller

High roller

rap is not poetry. it is just a bunch of curses and derogetory terms put to an electronic beat. it is hardly music.
Incompetence. Then what is Metal? Dancehall? Electronic?
Have you ever heard half of the people considered singers now without their computer synthesizers cleaning them up?

Most people seem to forget the main musical attribute to Rap, the rhythm. Rap is spoken in a rhythmic way on top of a tight beat, forming cross rhythms and making the music sound edgier.

Most people seem to forget the main musical attribute to Rap, the rhythm. Rap is spoken in a rhythmic way on top of a tight beat, forming cross rhythms and making the music sound edgier.

Poetry has a rhythm...

Poetry has a rhythm...

But not usually the same way rap does.

But not usually the same way rap does.

Depends on the poem... Rap is poetry.

This thread is full of racism.

Incompetence. Then what is Metal? Dancehall? Electronic?

Have you ever heard half of the people considered singers now without their computer synthesizers cleaning them up?

at least most of them (like Paris Hilton Britney Spears) have a parental warming on them. I know that metal does as well, but that is different. Metal does not glorify gang warfare, killing the police, and that women are whores. Metal is different because it instead glorifies gore, death, and the ocult.

This thread is full of racism.

Not my posts in the thread. Did you bother to read them?

at least most of them (like Paris Hilton Britney Spears) have a parental warming on them. I know that metal does as well, but that is different. Metal does not glorify gang warfare, killing the police, and that women are whores. Metal is different because it instead glorifies gore, death, and the ocult.
Which was totally irrelevant. How is Metal music if Rap isn't? Sure, the instruments might qualify, but the 'singing', not so much.

Also, prove your assertion all rap is about glorifying gang warfare, killing police, and objectifying women. Do it.

I do think it has an edge over most "modern poetry" in that it is made to please a fairly general audience.

Most "modern poetry" is written by degreed professionals whose only motivation (aside from fueling their pretentions) is to satisfy the conditions of grants.

Poetry sales, such as they are, are in the toilet. Most "modern poets" are supported by grants, and have no motivation or desire to write poetry that might possible resemble "popular" or "mainstream" stuff.

I agree here: Blumentopf were the first to prove that poetry can be fun, that words can not only be beautiful in a story but also due the their rhymes and rythms. They had gems like:

"Weisst Du gar nicht was du an mir eigentlich hast?
Ich bin zwar jung und erfolglos, doch das am aufsteigenden Ast"

at least most of them (like Paris Hilton Britney Spears) have a parental warming on them. I know that metal does as well, but that is different. Metal does not glorify gang warfare, killing the police, and that women are whores. Metal is different because it instead glorifies gore, death, and the ocult.


So what you're saying is that gangsta rap, a subdivision of rap, speaks for all rap?

Which was totally irrelevant. How is Metal music if Rap isn't? Sure, the instruments might qualify, but the 'singing', not so much.

Also, prove your assertion all rap is about glorifying gang warfare, killing police, and objectifying women. Do it.

you can go into any music store that sells rap cds, and go look at some of the lyrics. i guess not all of them deal with those subjects, but i believe an overwelming majority of the songs do. not to mention to drug references.

you can go into any music store that sells rap cds, and go look at some of the lyrics. i guess not all of them deal with those subjects, but i believe an overwelming majority of the songs do. not to mention to drug references.

Some rap is bad =/= All rap is bad

So what you're saying is that gangsta rap, a subdivision of rap, speaks for all rap?

I believe it is the most popular, but correct me if I am wrong. if I am wrong, then disregard everything I just said. I just know from personal experience (my school took a poll of 2500 kids, and most said that gangsta rap was their favorite music.)

I think most rap is crap, at least from what I've heard. Though I have to admit I haven't heard a lot of rap music, particuarly the stuff that a lot of people describe as classic hip hop. Not really able to listen to it, dad has a ban on all rap music and he's pretty strict about it. He says that it's brainless crap and doesn't want me listening to it.

Some rap is bad =/= All rap is bad

whatever, I still hate rap

rock on! :cool:

whatever, I still hate rap

rock on! :cool:

The chinese down the road overcharged me once. I hate all chinese people now

(only joking)

you can go into any music store that sells rap cds, and go look at some of the lyrics. i guess not all of them deal with those subjects, but i believe an overwelming majority of the songs do. not to mention to drug references.

So what? Thats good, it means they are legitimate, talking about real issues that they face. There is nothing wrong with ganster rap musically.

Depends. If Dan Le Sac vs. Scroobius Pip and Hadouken! qualify as rap, then I am not wholly averse to it. However, for the most part, it is crap; Morrissey, as ever, was right.

Yes there is. It's terrible. Music is not somebody talking about guns, ho's and drugs in colloqialisms.

What would you describe music as then?

So what? Thats good, it means they are legitimate, talking about real issues that they face. There is nothing wrong with ganster rap musically.

Yes there is. It's terrible. Music is not somebody talking about guns, ho's and drugs in colloqialisms.

I would like to rap, I would like to wrap them all into body bags.

Hmm, that works better when spoken.


Edit: There is some good rap out there, MC Lars comes to mind as well as Massive Attack and Blondie.

Yes there is. It's terrible. Music is not somebody talking about guns, ho's and drugs in colloqialisms.

Once again, 'its terrible' =/= its not music

What would you describe music as then?

I would dearly love to suggest that an instrument would be a requisite, but ultimately; anything not under the aegis of Gangsta Rap, or anything similar to it.

I would dearly love to suggest that an instrument would be a requisite, but ultimately; anything not under the aegis of Gangsta Rap, or anything similar to it.

Thats a very poor definition. Me bashing a keyboard repeatedly is music then? Or maybe the sound of my car engine, or any sound at all for that matter

Thats a very poor definition. Me bashing a keyboard repeatedly is music then? Or maybe the sound of my car engine, or any sound at all for that matter

Perhaps it is. It does not, however, reduce the fact that Rap is, with few exceptions, macho, homophobic, violent wank.

I would like to rap, I would like to wrap them all into body bags.

Hmm, that works better when spoken.


Edit: There is some good rap out there, MC Lars comes to mind as well as Massive Attack and Blondie.
MC Lars is great! I love "Download This Song"!

Not my type of stuff...

Perhaps it is. It does not, however, reduce the fact that Rap is, with few exceptions, macho, homophobic, violent wank.

Try reading Emily Dickenson for a sickening lack of variety...

I have to agree.
I might understand that rap COULD have started as a sort of spontaneous artistical expression of the ghettos, but, to-day, 99.999% of the rap that is broadcasted by the radio and the TV is nothing more that some half-criminals exploiting the fact that their skin is darker than that of an arab, to suck a lot of money from other, poorer black youngsters.

no they're sucking money from middle-class white suburban kids

Yes there is. It's terrible. Music is not somebody talking about guns, ho's and drugs in colloqialisms.

Sorry, it's music by any definition of the word.

The only reason you could disagree is by not understanding either music, or the english language.

This thread is full of racism.Hmm... people just really despise rap.

As I always say in these endlessly repeating threads...I'm a fan of rap. Not mainstream rap mind you, just as I'm not fond of most mainstream, commercialised music these days (and yet it IS music nontheless, despite my dislike of it). I love the edgy, social commentary of 'underground' rap...the stuff that gets less play. Rap from Spain, Albania (yes I know you hate the Albanians Fass :P), Cuba, France, the non-commercial stuff in the US and Canada.

Now, those of you who just blindly hate it because of the 50-cent tunes you've heard...well, hey. Go hard with your own narrow-minded selves. I don't care if you like the other stuff or not. But don't pretend that somehow your disdain makes you intellectually or culturally superior.

no they're sucking money from middle-class white suburban kids

Indeed. Living in the suburbs show that the white kids are too often influenced by the trash most rap represents. It is pretty sad to see the "monkey see monkey do" acts of those kids. Though it is a bit amusing as well. :p

I like some of it and some aspects of it are really nice. I once saw some guy improvising and continuing to increase the speed of his words, very impressive. Human beatboxing is extremely impressive too (although it's not rapping it is part of the same subculture) and there are some interesting songs. I listened to a 'rap' song which was quite beautiful today so I guess it's not all bad. Of course you can't judge a genre on it's most popular artists (as in: "the artist that sells most records and is played most on MTV") and almost all genres have at least one enjoyable artist.

But don't pretend that somehow your disdain makes you intellectually or culturally superior.

Oh, but they do. Most people on this forum are far more racist than I could ever hope to be.

I listen to it about 45% of the time, so I guess I like it.

I would rather be trapped in a public men's room and have to listen to strangers breaking wind than listen to virtually any (c)rap or hip-hop product.

Come to think of it, most (c)rap and hip-hop products don't even rise to the level of strangers breaking wind in a public men's room.

I would rather be trapped in a public men's room and have to listen to strangers breaking wind than listen to virtually any (c)rap or hip-hop product.

Come to think of it, most (c)rap and hip-hop products don't even rise to the level of strangers breaking wind in a public men's room.
Indeed, who wouldn't love listening to this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kxxwxtRktxQ

Indeed, who wouldn't love listening to this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kxxwxtRktxQ

Brilliant!

You know the procedure fill out the poll and leave any input on file #23918RE231B, which you got from Reintroducing the Concept of Classical Music to Certain Parts of NS line.

It's for people who can't play instruments and can't sing too well. Although they do write their own lyrics.

As I always say in these endlessly repeating threads...I'm a fan of rap. Not mainstream rap mind you, just as I'm not fond of most mainstream, commercialised music these days (and yet it IS music nontheless, despite my dislike of it). I love the edgy, social commentary of 'underground' rap...the stuff that gets less play. Rap from Spain, Albania (yes I know you hate the Albanians Fass :P), Cuba, France, the non-commercial stuff in the US and Canada.

Now you got me curious. Where can I find albanian rap online? Free music preferred.

most of its retarded, ala I want to take you the candy shop, you can suck on my lollipop (although I enjoy the stupidity of fiddy), some of its class, a real kick up the arse of the system e.g. Original Gangster by Ice T, overall if I had to choose between listening to Britney Spears or any girl/boy band you care to mention Id listen to rap instead.

(yes I know you hate the Albanians Fass :P)

I don't hate Albanians - I hate Albanian.

I thoroughly enjoy a fair variety of rap and hip hop. I think too many people dismiss it out of hand, as they do country music. There is value somewhere in almost any kind of music, you just have to have the opportunity for exposure somewhere along the line.

I enjoy some rap, from old school Ice T and the like to Immortal Technique and Del Tha Funkee Homosapien.

I don't hate Albanians - I hate Albanian.

Albanian? Or Albania?

I don't hate Albanians - I hate Albanian.

Ah yes, sorry...you did in fact make that distinction.

Some good, most bad.

Just like all other types of music.

I would rather be trapped in a public men's room and have to listen to strangers breaking wind than listen to virtually any (c)rap or hip-hop product.

Come to think of it, most (c)rap and hip-hop products don't even rise to the level of strangers breaking wind in a public men's room.

Yeah...kind of how I feel about reading your various political/religious/social opinions.

Oh, but they do. Most people on this forum are far more racist than I could ever hope to be.

But they'd never come out an admit it. In fact, they probably don't even see it themselves.

I by far prefer the out-and-out racists to the ones who quietly live their lives justifying their prejudices to themselves.

Not my posts in the thread. Did you bother to read them?

Your post was not racist. Congrats!

What I was talking about is that many people are basically saying "I don't listen to ****** music".

This is basically like a black person saying "I don't listen to cracka music." when asked about the merits of country music.

This is moronic at best.

I would rather be trapped in a public men's room and have to listen to strangers breaking wind than listen to virtually any (c)rap or hip-hop product.

That would mean something if you didn't, in fact, immensely enjoy being trapped in the men's room to begin with.

Ah yes, sorry...you did in fact make that distinction.

So grating.

As a very wise man (Dave Barry) once said, "Rap just sounds like angry men shouting. Possibly because the person who was supposed to provide the melody never showed up."

I'll admit to a strange like for foreign rap. Homies rapping in Arabic both amuses me and provides listening pleasure. Maybe because I can't understand a damn word they're saying...

Rap is ok. I listen sometimes...

Back it up. I want sources.

The fact? or your opinion?

The Chamorro-Premuzic study is a look into...

...the relationship between individual differences and specific uses of music, referring to why and how people use music in everyday life....open and intellectually engaged individuals, and those with higher IQ scores, tended to use music in a rational/cognitive way, while neurotic, introverted and non-conscientious individuals were all more likely to use music for emotional regulation (e.g. change or enhance moods). Results suggest that individual differences in personality and cognitive ability may partly determine the way in which we experience music.

Unfortunately the paper is not available online, at least not for free.

The point is that people who discount any one genre of music are often people who are unwilling to explore that genre. Nothing is 100% of course so anyone can point to their own exceptions but...

...those more open to new experiences, were more likely to listen to music for the deliberate, intellectual appreciation of it.

...for many who don't like a wide range of music it's because they're not interested in music itself but more in the emotional associations of music, the social qualities, the mood qualities but not a true appreciation of the phenomenon of music.

It's the difference between drinking wine and appreciating wine.

The researchers concluded: “Bearing in mind the many variables that may mediate and moderate our choice and motive for listening to music, the consistency with which personality and intelligence factors are associated with an individual's style for listening to music, is quite remarkable”. They added that more work was needed in this area, especially cross-cultural studies.

Again, no concrete claims on this and cultural factors play a huge factor in what we listen to but surely it's fair to say that people with a wide interest in music have a more open-minded attitude to music certainly and that possibly reflects an open-minded attitude in general.

It's also not to say that someone can't truly appreciate classical music, say, but hate rap music - I would still say they don't appreciate music as such but more the intellectual engagement in one form of music.

Mainstream stuff has never been good. The problem is the best rap is so buried that the average joe will never find it. I didn't until about two years ago.

I'm a huge fan of rap, although I wasn't until a couple of years ago. Here are a couple of actually good rap songs, as opposed to that "50 Cent" crap you hear on the radio. Remember, 50 Cent is to rap as Nickelback is to rock.

MC Solaar - La Vie Est Belle (pour les francophones parmi nous) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tkv7ucCtso)

Handsome Boy Modeling School - The World's Gone Mad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFOdf4ZJtvQ)

Jurassic 5 - Work It Out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaz2qkDZII4)

Deltron 3030 - Positive Contact (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oCXwl7XBiQ)

The only rap i listen is 2pac and Eminem, my ipod has every 2pac and Eminem album on it.

I graduated from Harvard, live in Boston and i'm a lawyer, and i'm pretty much the only person i know that likes rap. I don't have any poor friends, but all my black, white, latino and asian friends all make fun of me. :(

Deltron 3030 - Positive Contact (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oCXwl7XBiQ)

isn't that with kid koala? man does he own.

N.W.A.

/thread

isn't that with kid koala? man does he own.

Yeah, it's Del, Dan the Automator and Kid Koala.

Kid Koala is indeed amazing. Every time I see this I'm in awe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbFIGFv4GLQ

Yeah...kind of how I feel about reading your various political/religious/social opinions.


Trust me, sweetie, the feeling's mutual.

Trust me, sweetie, the feeling's mutual.

Oh, you too have a visceral reaction to nazi-esque hatemongering?

As a musician I can appreciate rap, there are not many rap songs that I particularly enjoy listening to, but I can see how it can be appealing to some people and that many of the artist do indeed have talent.

It's not as good as punk, but I still like it anyways.

The only rap i listen is 2pac and Eminem, my ipod has every 2pac and Eminem album on it.

I graduated from Harvard, live in Boston and i'm a lawyer, and i'm pretty much the only person i know that likes rap. I don't have any poor friends, but all my black, white, latino and asian friends all make fun of me. :(

So they should. I mean, most rap is utter wank, but 2pac and eminem? How very chav.

It's too bad I can't find any samples, but everyone should check out The Goats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goats). Great stuff from the early 90's. They're actually offering their first album in mp3 format on their website (http://jimmyluxury.com/thegoats.htm) ...

Rap and the entire hip-hop movement is no different than any other popularized sub-culture or musical genre. Most of the mainstream material that has been coated by the record executives to produce money rather than soul is horrible. This is no different for rock, metal, country, R&B, etc.

I love hip-hop due to the social awareness and cultural storylines developed in the songs, and appreciate the talent the -GOOD- DJs have to find a good beat with great hooks and be able to sample it appropiately.

Old school hip-hop between 1982 - 1994 is one of the most powerful and aggressive political, social, and cultrual weapons for the empowerment of underclass and ethnic minorities. It's true that Ja Rule, 50 Cent, and many others in the last decade have defiled the music. The same can be said for the Los Angelas glam metal scene's negative impact on metal and alternative rock's alteration of grunge in the 90s. The important thing to remember is that because of this, a powerful underground with true artists is given an oppertunity to counter this threat and appeal to an alternative audience. Rappers like Fort Minor, Common, Public Enemy, Jedi Mind Tricks, and so on remain true to the original fundamentals of rap and are all talented representitives of their craft.

When rappers can't be bothered to think, I don't bother to think of rap.

Arrested Development
The Fugees
Us3
Digable Planets

Some folks know what's up. Most do not.

very well said

The extreme majority of it is pure garbage.

Worse though, it is an engine of social destruction and a plague on black people in America, as it defines, celebrates and encourages the culture of criminality and failure.

The extreme majority of it is pure garbage.


The same could be said about any genre of music. Well, any genre of popular music.


Worse though, it is an engine of social destruction and a plague on black people in America, as it defines, celebrates and encourages the culture of criminality and failure.

Yeah, I heard the same was true of jazz, blues, and rock.

I believe you mean "Beethoven, Mozart, and I Beat Up Snoop Dog Every Day

Rap is crap. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=jRv1eU3j7XE)

We fly high
No lie
And you know this

BALLIN!

Rap is crap. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=jRv1eU3j7XE)

Country and Western looks down on rap?

WOW

Country and Western looks down on rap?

WOW

With that particular song they don't have any room to look down on anyone. That was just as bad as anything 50 Cent has done (well, almost).

Honestly, I can't understand how someone can categorically reject any genre of music, at least one as broad as rap. It's almost like saying you hate rock. Again, I maintain that 99% of those who hate rap just haven't heard any good rap, and often they absolutely refuse to listen to any. It's this pigheaded stubbornness that annoys me more than anything.

And for the record, I do like some country. I like a lot of older stuff, as well as some Brad Paisley.

Frankly, I think that rap is the lowest form of "music," if so it can be called. But then, I'm not a fan of most modern music. I prefer music like this. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-fMHms5Cvsw).. and 50's music.

Frankly, I think that rap is the lowest form of "music," if so it can be called. But then, I'm not a fan of most modern music. I prefer music like this. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-fMHms5Cvsw).. and 50's music.

Do you have any particular reason you don't like rap?

Gregorian chants can be cool, and I'm a big fan of 50's rock too. My grandparents find it humorous that I listen to the same stuff they did when they were my age (24).

I agree with Bruce Willis in the Last Boy Scout...


evil bad guy: "Just once I'd like to hear you scream."

Bruce Willis: "Play some rap music."




Each to his own, no disrespect intended.

I just don't like it.

Frankly, I think that rap is the lowest form of "music," if so it can be called.

i have yet to hear a good explanation of what people mean when they claim that rap is only questionably classed as music. would you mind explaining it to me?

Is there any reason you don't like rap?

Dammit, did I not just get finished explaining that? I don't like rap because rap is crap, and I don't like crap, and so I don't like rap.

Do you have any particular reason you don't like rap?


The same reason I don't like sushi, the Fantastic Four, old people porn, painful itchy rashes, being groped by drunk people and little white kids that think they are gangsters.

In general I don't like things that are gross, cheesy, nasty, painful, disgusting or just plain obnoxious.

No genre of music has universal appeal and rap is no exception.

i have yet to hear a good explanation of what people mean when they claim that rap is only questionably classed as music. would you mind explaining it to me?

Music seems to me, by very definition, to subsist in lyric poetry and in melodic chanting. The second is what oral music is. Rap rarely possesses good lyric poetry, and by very definition lacks melodic chanting. Rappers don't sing.

Ergo, if it is music, it is only by some gay technicality.

Music seems to me, by very definition, subsists in lyric poetry and in melodic chanting.

ah, yes, i too have long argued that instrumental pieces lacking vocals are not music at all.

your definition is stupid and wrong.

The same reason I don't like sushi, the Fantastic Four, old people porn, painful itchy rashes, being groped by drunk people and little white kids that think they are gangsters.

In general I don't like things that are gross, cheesy, nasty, painful, disgusting or just plain obnoxious.

No genre of music has universal appeal and rap is no exception.

I never said it was. Interestingly, you took out the word "particular" from what I said, which completely changes the sentence. If there's no particular reason to his dislike for rap, then I'll just say "Ok, your loss" but if there is, I'd like to know it.

ah, yes, i too have long argued that instrumental pieces lacking vocals are not music at all.

your definition is stupid and wrong.

Instrumental music differs from oral music. I specified, man.

Instrumental music differs from oral music. I specified, man.

no, you didn't. but let us assume that you intended to, and merely mistakenly left out that specification and accidentally stated the opposite entirely. so it is instead your contention that 'oral music' is defined by melodic chanting.

your definition is still stupid and wrong. honestly, this is so dumb that it doesn't even require a response, and your own admission to liking music from the 50s and the existence of modern music undermines it completely.

your definition is still stupid and wrong.

Why is it stupid and wrong? Because you disagree with it? I think that your objection is stupid and wrong.

and your own admission to liking music from the 50s and the existence of modern music undermines it completely.

Music from the 50's and most forms of modern music also subsist in lyric poetry and melodic chanting.

One of the main reasons I dislike most forms of modern music isn't because they don't involve melodic chanting, but because they lyric poetry involved is really, really gay. I don't want to hear about adultery, beer, break ups, etc. You know what I mean?

Rap not only has horrible poetry involved, but they don't even have the melodic chanting that is so quintessential to oral music.

Music from the 50's and most forms of modern music also subsist in...melodic chanting.

no, they don't. i suspect either you don't know what chanting is, or you are using a strange definition. but any definition of chanting that will cover pop music will cover rap.

no, they don't. i suspect either you don't know what chanting is, or you are using a strange definition. but any definition of chanting that will cover pop music will cover rap.

Singing, man. Rappers don't sing. Country musicians sing. 50's musicians sing. Rockers sing...albeit not very well. Today's pop musicians sing, albeit very badly. The men religious of the middle ages...sung.

Rappers don't sing. And if they aren't singing, it isn't oral music, so far as I am concerned.

That said, most rap songs have horrible lyrics. What was the one by black eyed peas..."Whatcha gonna do with all that junk, all that junk inside your trunk?"

The lyrics are bad, the grammar is bad, and by gosh, they don't even sing them!

Rap music sucks...hell, it isn't even real music!

Singing, man. Rappers don't sing.

so let me see if i understand your argument. rap isn't music because it doesn't involve singing. but instrumentals are music because music doesn't require singing. hmmm...

so let me see if i understand your argument. rap isn't music because it doesn't involve singing. but instrumentals are music because music doesn't require singing. hmmm...

Music doesn't require singing absolutely.

However, music is either oral or instrumental.

Oral music requires singing whereas instrumental music cannot have singing involved.

Rapping is not instrumental, and therefore can only be oral. But wait, rapping has no singing involved.

Therefore assume it is music. It is then either oral or instrumental. But we've already said it is not.

Therefore, it isn't music.

Oral music requires singing

demonstrate this. i don't believe you.

and assuming this is true, demonstrate then that music can only be oral or instrumental, as opposed to covering some other forms also.

demonstrate this. i don't believe you.

Demonstrate that it isn't.

If you can't, then you can't say that I am "stupid and wrong," since the cause of our disagreement is that by definition our understanding of music is vastly different, rather than a demonstrable error in my reasoning.

If you accept my first principles, then by definition, rap isn't music. I accept my first principles, and therefore, so far as I am concerned, rap is not music.

I cannot prove a first principle. That's what a first principle is. However, according to the ones involved, you must admit that rap doesn't fit into the definitions I have set.

The same could be said about any genre of music. Well, any genre of popular music.



Yeah, I heard the same was true of jazz, blues, and rock.

That isn't true.

Where was jazz, blues, or rock referred to as a scourge on the black American population, vis a vis its celebration, &c, of failure and crime?

Find me a few jazz songs that talk about selling crack cocaine. Blues? Rock songs about killing policemen?

Funny how you don't hear gutter trash, of whatever race, blasting blues and jazz from their cars and boom boxes :rolleyes:

This is on par with the "if it doesn't have vocals it isn't music" post in here. :rolleyes:

Demonstrate that it isn't.

i'm not the one making the claim. burden of proof and all that - it's all you here.

but if i were to try, i would say that rap clearly bears a strong family resemblance to everything else we class as music, both instrumental and not. it shares the overwhelming majority of characteristics of other forms, and clearly the lack of any one particular characteristic doesn't rule other forms out of being music (see instrumental vs vocals vs a cappella, or guitar-centered vs piano-centered vs only drumming, etc). therefore, unless some strong argument to the contrary arises, rap is clearly part of the same family that we call music

If you can't, then you can't say that I am "stupid and wrong," since the cause of our disagreement is that by definition our understanding of music is vastly different, rather than a demonstrable error in my reasoning.

your argument assumes its conclusion. without the assumption that rapping disqualifies a thing from being music, your argument only gets you to the conclusion that rapping isn't singing. but since the qualification or lack thereof of rapping as music is the very thing under discussion your argument is fallacious. in other words, "hey look, a demonstrable error in your reasoning!"

Demonstrate that it isn't.


I cannot prove a first principle. That's what a first principle is. However, according to the ones involved, you must admit that rap doesn't fit into the definitions I have set.

You may not be able to prove it, but you can certainly defend it, something you haven't done.

Your "first principle" seems unnecessarily, arbitrarily narrow. You disqualify, without providing a reason, things like rap which are commonly understood to be music.

It looks like you've tailored your so-called "first principle" to exclude rap, in which case it is circular to claim that rap is not music on account of your "f p."

More to the point, your first principle is "rap is not music," and the rest is taken from there, using whatever contrivance you can cook up to explain it.

You may not be able to prove it, but you can certainly defend it, something you haven't done.

Your "first principle" seems unnecessarily, arbitrarily narrow. You disqualify, without providing a reason, things like rap which are commonly understood to be music.

It looks like you've tailored your so-called "first principle" to exclude rap, in which case it is circular to claim that rap is not music on account of your "f p."

though it does seem like it would be useful to live in a world where this sort of argument worked. you'd never have to be wrong about anything, as you could accept any fool thing you like as a 'first principle', and nobody could call you on it.

Whoever started this thread really loves rap, cause they spelled Snoop Dog with one o. Only true fans misspell his name! :rolleyes:

Hoppa;12872484']Whoever started this thread really loves rap, cause they spelled Snoop Dog with one o. Only true fans misspell his name! :rolleyes:

Don't be stupid. Snop Dog is an underground rapper....

Being a DJ. What makes me dislike rap is that it hasn't changed since Tupac and Biggie were shot. Before that event hip hop "not rap" was flourishing on so many levels remember Run DMC, A Tribe Called Quest? After the event rap music emerged and it is just the same stuff over and over and rehashed and rehashed. Drugs, Money, Women is basically the topics that seem to drone on and on. And now its becoming real hypocritical and ignorant. Over the last few years rap music has been in decline and stagnation. Back in the 90s in was common to have rap albums top the charts. Now not even good ol Snoop Dogg can beat out Kelly Clarkson. Its stupid things like "Stop Snitching" which is a horrible premise that causes hundreds of murders to go unsolved. The N-word is being used like a verb, noun, pronoun, adverb etc! The borderline pornographic music videos. And the corporate recording industry influence on rap makes it look cheap, gaudy, overpriced, overexposed. Rap will always be tied to the streets. But creating a song about your past cocaine deals and naked women is not music. Hip Hop is deep and invigorating and rap is just a glitzy thin shell. Rap is more about money and creating buzz rather than the music produced. Rappers tend to focus more on that catchy hook than their lyrics. Listen to the recent singles by T.I. I'll guarantee you that the majority of his songs are dominated by mind numbing dumb choruses and his piss poor rhyming. Heck they have freakin songs about lipgloss! Its annoying! I also like to mention the uncaring and crappy use of sampling by pathetic producers like Kanye West and others to jazz up the beats to a point it just sounds like a remix of old George Clinton singles. All of Kanye West's songs basically have some clip of an old R&B tune. Then these idiots turn around and call it music! Its not music. Music is all about unique composing and creating. I dislike rap but I love Hip Hop.

I really don't listen to the "commerical rap" and sometimes called "crap" you know G-Unit, Jay-Z, Diddy, Kanye West, that whole thing going on. Its annoying.
I prefer underground, underground and indie rappers are not obsessed with Booty, Money, Cars, And Drugs. They are much more talented lyrically and make a much better beat than Pharrell.

p.s. Common is not underground and is not a great rapper.

Where was jazz, blues, or rock referred to as a scourge on the black American population, vis a vis its celebration, &c, of failure and crime?

Well, at the time, the black population itself was seen as a scourge, and the music just a symptom of it. Hence why "****** music" was often looked down upon with the same conceit you and others do today with rap. Or did you honestly believe that you were the first one to come up with the idea that music by black people is amoral and antisocial and dangerous?

Find me a few jazz songs that talk about selling crack cocaine. Blues? Rock songs about killing policemen?

I can find a few jazz songs about other drugs. But I guess they're OK. Rock songs about killing cops? No doubt. I'm not going to try, because this is ridiculous, a non-relevant distinction you're trying to make. Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet is about "consentual" sex with a 14 year old girl, but I don't see you whining about how that's a plague on all our houses.

Funny how you don't hear gutter trash, of whatever race, blasting blues and jazz from their cars and boom boxes :rolleyes:

Yeah, because those forms of music have had their day and gone.

I somehow doubt you're mister high brow when it comes to music yourself, though, so maybe you won't mind if I call you "gutter trash?"


This is on par with the "if it doesn't have vocals it isn't music" post in here. :rolleyes:

Your post? Definitely.

I guess everyone's entitled to their opinion, no matter how dumb it is.

Well, at the time, the black population itself was seen as a scourge, and the music just a symptom of it. Hence why "****** music" was often looked down upon with the same conceit you and others do today with rap. Or did you honestly believe that you were the first one to come up with the idea that music by black people is amoral and antisocial and dangerous?



I can find a few jazz songs about other drugs. But I guess they're OK. Rock songs about killing cops? No doubt. I'm not going to try, because this is ridiculous, a non-relevant distinction you're trying to make. Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet is about "consentual" sex with a 14 year old girl, but I don't see you whining about how that's a plague on all our houses.



Yeah, because those forms of music have had their day and gone.

I somehow doubt you're mister high brow when it comes to music yourself, though, so maybe you won't mind if I call you "gutter trash?"



Your post? Definitely.


Not music by black people, you racist, music celebrating crime and failure.

I am not a criminal hood-rat, so it wouldn't be accurate to call me gutter trash. That word doesn't have much to do with music, and everything to do with behavior.

I don't think there are many jazz songs that celebrate selling crack and destroying society. Maybe you know of some that I don't, but I don't believe that you do.

Are there some rock songs celebrating killing policemen? Probably. Are they garbage? Yes.

It is mind boggling that a supposed liberal, progressive, what have you, would defend the quality of music which is entirely at odds with liberal and progressive goals. Everything isn't equally good, you'll probably figure that out some day.

Being a DJ. What makes me dislike rap is that it hasn't changed since Tupac and Biggie were shot. Before that event hip hop "not rap" was flourishing on so many levels remember Run DMC, A Tribe Called Quest? After the event rap music emerged and it is just the same stuff over and over and rehashed and rehashed. Drugs, Money, Women is basically the topics that seem to drone on and on. And now its becoming real hypocritical and ignorant. Over the last few years rap music has been in decline and stagnation. Back in the 90s in was common to have rap albums top the charts. Now not even good ol Snoop Dogg can beat out Kelly Clarkson. Its stupid things like "Stop Snitching" which is a horrible premise that causes hundreds of murders to go unsolved. The N-word is being used like a verb, noun, pronoun, adverb etc! The borderline pornographic music videos. And the corporate recording industry influence on rap makes it look cheap, gaudy, overpriced, overexposed. Rap will always be tied to the streets. But creating a song about your past cocaine deals and naked women is not music. Hip Hop is deep and invigorating and rap is just a glitzy thin shell. Rap is more about money and creating buzz rather than the music produced. Rappers tend to focus more on that catchy hook than their lyrics. Listen to the recent singles by T.I. I'll guarantee you that the majority of his songs are dominated by mind numbing dumb choruses and his piss poor rhyming. Heck they have freakin songs about lipgloss! Its annoying! I also like to mention the uncaring and crappy use of sampling by pathetic producers like Kanye West and others to jazz up the beats to a point it just sounds like a remix of old George Clinton singles. All of Kanye West's songs basically have some clip of an old R&B tune. Then these idiots turn around and call it music! Its not music. Music is all about unique composing and creating. I dislike rap but I love Hip Hop.

"Panic on the streets of London....hang the blessed DJ, because the music he constantly plays.....":p

Not music by black people, you racist, music celebrating crime and failure.

Rap is indelibly a subset of black culture, as in fact the origins of jazz and blues and even rock are as well. Reality isn't racist, but I think it's cute that you tried nonetheless.

I am not a criminal hood-rat, so it wouldn't be accurate to call me gutter trash. That word doesn't have much to do with music, and everything to do with behavior.

Yeah, but your detestable opinions are every bit as offensive; more so because you have the education to where one would think you'd know better. I think gutter trash is as fine a term for you as it is for people who play rap loudly in their cars.

I don't think there are many jazz songs that celebrate selling crack and destroying society. Maybe you know of some that I don't, but I don't believe that you do.

I'm pretty sure this is irrelevant. The drugs change, crack hadn't even been invented during the jazz era. As for "destroying society," I don't even know many rap songs in particular that "celebrate" that. Do you?

Are there some rock songs celebrating killing policemen? Probably. Are they garbage? Yes.

I see, so music is garbage if the lyrics involve crime. Interesting way of appreciating music you have there.

It is mind boggling that a supposed liberal, progressive, what have you, would defend the quality of music which is entirely at odds with liberal and progressive goals. Everything isn't equally good, you'll probably figure that out some day.

I'm not a "liberal" just because I disagree with fucking racists, bigots, xenophobes, fascists, warmongers and idiots. I defend the quality of music regardless of politics because I am a musician. You attack the quality of music because you are yet another clueless bystander with a political axe to grind.

Rap is indelibly a subset of black culture, as in fact the origins of jazz and blues and even rock are as well. Reality isn't racist, but I think it's cute that you tried nonetheless.



Yeah, but your detestable opinions are every bit as offensive; more so because you have the education to where one would think you'd know better. I think gutter trash is as fine a term for you as it is for people who play rap loudly in their cars.



I'm pretty sure this is irrelevant. The drugs change, crack hadn't even been invented during the jazz era. As for "destroying society," I don't even know many rap songs in particular that "celebrate" that. Do you?



I see, so music is garbage if the lyrics involve crime. Interesting way of appreciating music you have there.



I'm not a "liberal" just because I disagree with fucking racists, bigots, xenophobes, fascists, warmongers and idiots. I defend the quality of music regardless of politics because I am a musician. You attack the quality of music because you are yet another clueless bystander with a political axe to grind.

Rap is a large part of black culture, but that isn't the reason it is bad, it is bad because it celebrates failure and crime.

Playing rap music in a car doesn't make someone gutter trash, being a criminal hood rat does.

Any song that celebrates the "lifestyle" of selling drugs and crime is socially destructive, because crack dealers and criminals are socially destructive.

I don't know if you know this or not, but what destroys black communities is drugs, bad parenting, bad role models, low aspirations. Music that destroys black communities is music that makes these things seem desirable.

Rap is a large part of black culture, but that isn't the reason it is bad, it is bad because it celebrates failure and crime.

Yeah, find me one song that celebrates failure. Cuz that's the rap style - "lol, I'm a failure, I suck at everything I do." Oh wait it isn't, that's just your crappy mis-interpretative generalization.

Same with "celebrating crime." I guess music is bad if it celebrates crime, so fuck the Star Spangled Banner, celebrating the crime of treason.

Playing rap music in a car doesn't make someone gutter trash, being a criminal hood rat does.

You're getting pretty circular here. I guess it's mostly an opportunity for you to blurt out phrases like "gutter trash" and "criminal hood rat" a lot by now.

Any song that celebrates the "lifestyle" of selling drugs and crime is socially destructive, because crack dealers and criminals are socially destructive.

I'm a criminal. I sped today on the freeway. I guess I just destroyed fucking society. Alas, society, I knew him.


I don't know if you know this or not, but what destroys black communities is drugs, bad parenting, bad role models, low aspirations. Music that destroys black communities is music that makes these things seem desirable.

Exact same argument made against pretty much any new genre of music in the 20th century, minus the focus on black communities.

Just as irrelevant.

Music doesn't destroy anything, and your harsh judgements of music on that basis seem fucking farfetched. Why don't you just say you don't like it, instead of trying to bombastically declare that it's "Garbage" based on your own faulty reasoning?

Your "first principle" seems unnecessarily, arbitrarily narrow. You disqualify, without providing a reason, things like rap which are commonly understood to be music.

Can you name any other musical form commonly listened to by Westerners that doesn't involve singing other than rap? If not, then you must admit that rap lacks a common quality that all other Western musical forms have, at least insofar as vocal music goes.

If that is the case, then you will be hard pressed to give any real definition for music in general.

Therefore, I am assuming that because rap lacks what more or less absolutely every other accepted musical genre has, that rap is, in fact, not music. It's crap.

I think of a "culture" that promotes crime, drug use, a lack of education, and disrespect, especially for manners. I also think of videos and songs that only talk about money, cars, and ugly women and people who probably should have been put in detention a few more times. Obviously, I'm not a fan of it.

Can you name any other musical form commonly listened to by Westerners that doesn't involve singing other than rap?

Rap involves singing.


If that is the case, then you will be hard pressed to give any real definition for music in general.

Music is the ordering of sounds for artistic purposes, and has melody, harmony and rhythm. Rap qualifies. Your own petty distaste for it is about as relevant to this as me not liking the fact that gravity is a fundamental force of the universe.

Rap involves singing.


If you can call it that. Sounds more like random swearing set to a beat.

Listen to kinder gardeners- they rap all the time and make just about as much sense.

If you can call it that. Sounds more like random swearing set to a beat.

Listen to kinder gardeners- they rap all the time and make just about as much sense.

Amen!

Rap involves singing.

It's uncommmon. And what singing there is in some rap tracks is usually only in the chorus -- a chorus commonly cribbed from another song.

Music is the ordering of sounds for artistic purposes, and has melody, harmony and rhythm. Rap qualifies. Your own petty distaste for it is about as relevant to this as me not liking the fact that gravity is a fundamental force of the universe.

The barest definition of music is patterns or deliberate absence of patterns (for all the Cage fans out there) of sounds and (/or, again, for Cageophiles) silences in time.

"Harmony" is not required at all (otherwise single-line chants, unisons and unaccompanies solos would not qualify). Chordal structure may be implied by single lines, but harmony is optional.

"Artistic purposes" is not the only reason music exists. Instead of "artistic", which is very subjective, a better word might be "aesthetic". For example, many would support the opinion that sonic wallpapers such as Muzak are anything but artistic.

Even "melody" and "rhythm" are hazy and depend on how you define them. Is there melody when unpitched percussion is being played (such as Steve Reich's Clapping Music? Where's the melody in Terry Riley's composition In C?

Rigidity of definition and highness of horse have very little value in music. Therefore I will agree with your assessment that rap is indeed music. However, mentioning someone else's "petty distaste" for a genre, and then comparing that to finding gravity distasteful does little to strengthen your defense.

Everyone here is free to disagree all they want, but why? What's the point? Where's the winner in an argument over whether rap is music -- especially when it so clearly is, and the argument is so clearly an attempt by those who don't like it to discredit it, and to do so without any basis in reality?

Proposal: You like rap? GREAT! Extol its perceived virtues to high heaven and enjoy yourself. You don't like rap? Ignore those who do and get on with life. You won't convince them, they won't convince you. It is, as it always has been with music, a matter of personal taste.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

*snip the good stuff*

In the days of Walt Whitman, he was ACTUALLY popular. Not because people were so literate, but because he wasn't a pretentious ass.

You've lost your mind. People who read Whitman were literate. No TV does that to a culture. And just how do you know he wasn't a pretentious ass? Read any accounts of people who interacted with him regularly? Perhaps he wasn't pretentious by today's standards. Most of your post was great. This last sentence reeks of having been withdrawn from your alimentary canal half-digested.

If you can call it that.

You can.

Sounds more like random swearing set to a beat.

Listen to kinder gardeners- they rap all the time and make just about as much sense.

You don't strike me as someone who has listened to much if any rap, so your opinion on it doesn't mean much.

It's uncommmon. And what singing there is in some rap tracks is usually only in the chorus -- a chorus commonly cribbed from another song.

1 a : to produce musical tones by means of the voice b : to utter words in musical tones and with musical inflections and modulations c : to deliver songs as a trained or professional singer

Again the definition works against this type of argument. You have to narrow your definition down, pretty much for the sole purpose of excluding rap.

Rigidity of definition and highness of horse have very little value in music. Therefore I will agree with your assessment that rap is indeed music. However, mentioning someone else's "petty distaste" for a genre, and then comparing that to finding gravity distasteful does little to strengthen your defense.

Petty distaste doesn't make a form of music non-music. Nor does it make a force of nature non-existent. Liking or not liking something doesn't reflect on that something and it certainly doesn't nullify it.

Everyone here is free to disagree all they want, but why? What's the point? Where's the winner in an argument over whether rap is music -- especially when it so clearly is, and the argument is so clearly an attempt by those who don't like it to discredit it, and to do so without any basis in reality?

What's the point in arguing with bigots about immigration? With Islamophobes about killing Muslims? With Democrats if you're a Republican and vice versa? What's the point in any argument? Why isn't this forum filled with a Cagey silence?

Incompetence. Then what is Metal? Dancehall? Electronic?
Have you ever heard half of the people considered singers now without their computer synthesizers cleaning them up?

ABSOLUTELY.

I was watching "A Capital Fourth" on US Independence Day, and the national anthem was sung by another of the former Disney stable of pop tartlets, Hayden Panettiere. Apparently, its de rigeur for anyone performing for the Disney Machine to be forced to become pop singers, too.

She started off by choosing a key too low for her (whenever you sing the anthem, you have to check the note on "say" of "O say can you see" -- if "O" is in your low end, you've got a whole fifth to descend before you get anywhere near the "rockets' red glare"). She continued by being relentlessly flat and having a timbre that resembled someone attempting to drag a donkey-tail-hair violin bow over a rusty wire from a cheese slicer. I've heard better singing from a rat with throat cancer (bonus if you know where that last sentence is from).

So the girl is underdressed and underskilled when she performs live. That's tragic. Digital audio "sweetening" won't be the death of talent and honed skill, but it sure as hell isn't healthy.

That sounds better than what Avril Lavigne sounds like a capella. She was playing on Jay Leno's show. Nails on a fucking chalkboard, literally.

What I was talking about is that many people are basically saying "I don't listen to ****** music".

This is basically like a black person saying "I don't listen to cracka music." when asked about the merits of country music.

This is moronic at best.

Funny, I don't recall seeing anything remotely resembling that opinion in this thread so far. They've all been talking about rap and its lyrics. Seems to be that you're the first person to bring the topic up AND use a racist epithet in your post, even if as an example.

The poster doth protest too much, methinks.

I would like to point out that in my opinion, most rap (as of now) is really dumb. I don't really like any rap, but I can at least appreciate the efforts made by original rap artists who made good rap. By "good", I mean that they actually had meaning to their songs, that there was a point other than the topics of sex, drugs, alcohol, and pimping out cars. They just made a point of expressing their past struggles and problems with living in the ghettos and slums of America. It seems that most rap artists today do not use rap as a way to express themselves as much as they use it to make money. Honestly, it sounds like a lot of the people rapping have just been employed by the record companies to boost sales. And I would like to make a distinction between "rapping" and "rap" as a genre. For example, I love Beck's music a lot, even though he does a fair amount of "rapping", however, just "rapping" does not put it in the genre of "rap" music. That will be all for my rant. :)

Rap and the entire hip-hop movement is no different than any other popularized sub-culture or musical genre. Most of the mainstream material that has been coated by the record executives to produce money rather than soul is horrible. This is no different for rock, metal, country, R&B, etc.

I love hip-hop due to the social awareness and cultural storylines developed in the songs, and appreciate the talent the -GOOD- DJs have to find a good beat with great hooks and be able to sample it appropiately.

Old school hip-hop between 1982 - 1994 is one of the most powerful and aggressive political, social, and cultrual weapons for the empowerment of underclass and ethnic minorities. It's true that Ja Rule, 50 Cent, and many others in the last decade have defiled the music. The same can be said for the Los Angelas glam metal scene's negative impact on metal and alternative rock's alteration of grunge in the 90s. The important thing to remember is that because of this, a powerful underground with true artists is given an oppertunity to counter this threat and appeal to an alternative audience. Rappers like Fort Minor, Common, Public Enemy, Jedi Mind Tricks, and so on remain true to the original fundamentals of rap and are all talented representitives of their craft.

Wow. That's some pretty swizzled reasoning, there.

Glam metal merely made metal more flashy and consumable. It had no effect on metal. It's clearly still around. Glam, however, is as dead as lycra tights.

Even more ludicrous is your statement about "alternative rock's alteration of grunge in the 90s". I'm trying to figure out what you mean, and I'm afraid to ask you for fear of the answer. If the original form can't survive its own (inevitable) popularization, it wasn't very strong to begin with.

Speaking of Nathaniel's comment... in 1989 I distinctly remember a high school girl telling me she doesn't like that "n----- music" when I was blasting some rap from my car. Ever since '84 I was a teenage white boy that loved rap music, especially Run DMC, LL Cool J, Beastie Boys, Public Enemy, N.W.A., 2 Live Crew and De La Soul. I just couldn't identify with the "hair metal" crowd back then (I do appreciate how one girl in one of my classes turned me on to Metallica), and it would be another couple years before Nirvana broke big, so I fell in with the hip-hoppers.

Rap involves singing.

Bullshit!

Music is the ordering of sounds for artistic purposes, and has melody, harmony and rhythm.

Some oral poetry (usually performed with bongos) have the exact same properties. It still ain't music.

That said, my point is even more strengthened whnen you consider the fact that most rap songs just sound FOOLISH when actually sung. Listen to this. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=4moXgu6aqfI)

I think that rap enthusiasts don't understand how idiotic rap is specifically because rap is said too damned fast for anyone to really catch the lyrics. But when it's slowed down and actually sung, when it actually is set to real music...it just doesn't make any sense.

You don't strike me as someone who has listened to much if any rap, so your opinion on it doesn't mean much.


True- I've listened to as little as possible.

I don't have to shovel a lot of shit to know that it ain't flowers. Call me gifted that way. :upyours:

THE BIG ANSWER POST.

The same could be said about any genre of music. Well, any genre of popular music.

Yeah, I heard the same was true of jazz, blues, and rock.

It was. Jazz was said to corrupt those who listened to it and those who played it were unabashed sinners. Hell, the name "jazz" is a corruption of "jizz".

Music seems to me, by very definition, to subsist in lyric poetry and in melodic chanting. The second is what oral music is. Rap rarely possesses good lyric poetry, and by very definition lacks melodic chanting. Rappers don't sing.

Ergo, if it is music, it is only by some gay technicality.

Why is the technicality gay? [Don't asnwer that -- you've already shown your idiocy by using that word in that fashion, don't compound it.]

So what is vocal improvisation? No words, just syllables sung over accompaniment (commonly called "scat singing"). You'd be hard pressed to call it chanting. Your phrase "rap rarely possesses good lyric poetry" is completely without merit and makes no sense besides. What IS "good lyric poetry"? You keep bandying about these phrases while failing to define them. It makes you sound -- I don't know, what's a word for "pretentious, but not smart enough to actually attempt pretention"?

Why is it stupid and wrong? Because you disagree with it? I think that your objection is stupid and wrong.

Wow. I was just magically transported to the third grade playground. "I'm not stupid, you're stupid, stupid!" Yikes.

Music from the 50's and most forms of modern music also subsist in lyric poetry and melodic chanting.

What the flying monkey spank are you talking about, man? Let's compare:

Buddy Holly, "Oh Boy" (1957)

All my love, all-a my kissin'
You don't know what'choo been-a missin'
Oh boy (oh boy)
When you're with me
Oh boy (oh boy)
The-uh world will see
That you were meant for me

All my life, I been a-waitin'
Tonight there'll be no a-hesitatin'
Oh boy (oh boy)
When you're with me
Oh boy (oh boy)
The-uh world will see
That you were meant for me

Stars appear and shadows a-fallin'
You can hear my heart a-callin'
A little bit o' lovin' makes ev'rything right
I'm gonna see my baby tonight

ANALYSIS: One metric device with little variation, solid (if well-traveled) rhymes, some use of "hiccupy" style which was Holly's signature to help fill in small holes left by unaltered words and give the Lubbock twang to his song. Subject matter: adolescent lust and the anticipation thereof.

Eminem, "Without Me" (excerpt, 2002)

Well, if you want Shady, this is what I'll give ya
A little bit of weed mixed with some hard liquor
Some vodka that will jumpstart my heart quicka
Then a shock when I get shocked at the hospital
By the doctor when I'm not cooperating
When I'm rockin' the table while he's operating "Hey!"
You waited this long to stop debating
'Cuz I'm back, I'm on the rag and ovulating
I know that you got a job Mrs. Cheney
But your husband's heart problem is complicating
So the FCC won't let me be
Or let me be me so let me see
They tried to shut me down on MTV
But it feels so empty without me

ANALYSIS: Multiple metric devices including polyrhythms and several patterns of accented and unaccented syllables. No gimmicks to fill in rhythmic holes. Complex syncopation, especially in lines 5-13. Unusual rhymes (cooperating/ovulating). Subject matter: Metaphor describing how success has demanded Eminem re-create the "Slim Shady" persona, extended surgical metaphor leading into political satire and comment on censorship.

So tell me, Doctor Lyric Poetry, which of those two rates higher in objective complexity? Eminem's use of vocal inflection to emphasize different lyrics is relatable to Arnold Schoenberg's use of Sprechstimme (inflected speakingm NOT singing or, since you seem to prefer it, "chanting") in his serialist vocal compositions. That says "music" by any definition, your personal reality notwithstanding.

One of the main reasons I dislike most forms of modern music isn't because they don't involve melodic chanting, but because they lyric poetry involved is really, really gay. I don't want to hear about adultery, beer, break ups, etc. You know what I mean?

No I don't. And it doesn't seem like you do, either. "Adultery, alcohol, break ups, etc." have been in popular song since before George and Ira Gershwin and Tin Pan Alley, for cryin' out loud. Have you HEARD any Billie Holiday? Sarah Vaughan? Joe Williams? Hell, Janis Joplin, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Queen, there hasn't been a Top Ten in any genre that didn't involve at least one of those topics. The way those subjects are tackled can be infantile or adolescent (is it Carrie Underwood who does the song about vandalizing her cheating boyfriend's car? Sets my teeth on edge.) , but the topics themselves are part of life.

Rap not only has horrible poetry involved, but they don't even have the melodic chanting that is so quintessential to oral music.

Uh, no. The earlier Eminem song's most memorable hook is the melody he chants in the middle and at the end, and he is decidedly mainstream and therefore qualifies as being emblematic of the genre. Nice try, though.

*snip*
Its stupid things like "Stop Snitching" which is a horrible premise that causes hundreds of murders to go unsolved. The N-word is being used like a verb, noun, pronoun, adverb etc! The borderline pornographic music videos. And the corporate recording industry influence on rap makes it look cheap, gaudy, overpriced, overexposed.

Agreed.

Rap will always be tied to the streets. But creating a song about your past cocaine deals and naked women is not music.

Really? The subject of a lyric determines what is or is not music? I suppose the lyric "I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die" by legendary musician Johnny Cash doesn't qualify as music because it's about a senseless murder? Did cash do that? I don't know. DO gangsta rappers have experience selling cocaine? Possibly, but probably not.

Rappers tend to focus more on that catchy hook than their lyrics. Listen to the recent singles by T.I. I'll guarantee you that the majority of his songs are dominated by mind numbing dumb choruses and his piss poor rhyming. Heck they have freakin songs about lipgloss! Its annoying!

:rolleyes: Disingenuous at best. Come on, man, the "catchy hook" has been a staple of popular music forever! An der schoenen, Blauen Donau (The Blue Danube) isn't a memorable melody because it's complex. So what if the song's about lip gloss? The 50s and front-end 60s were full of meaningless songs like that (the most egregious might be the one about the yellow polka-dot bikini). You sing what sells when you're a pop musician, if you want to be popular.

I also like to mention the uncaring and crappy use of sampling by pathetic producers like Kanye West and others to jazz up the beats to a point it just sounds like a remix of old George Clinton singles. All of Kanye West's songs basically have some clip of an old R&B tune. Then these idiots turn around and call it music! Its not music. Music is all about unique composing and creating. I dislike rap but I love Hip Hop.

Come on again, man! Theft and cannibalism is everywhere in popular music. In music of all genres! Wagner stole from Berlioz stole from Beethoven stole from Mozart stole from Bach stole from Monteverdi stole from Carissimi and so on and so on back to the guy who copied the first grunt and added a touch of his own. Jazz "standards" are exactly that -- take an old song (say, "Autumn Leaves") and make it your own (Julian "Cannonball" Adderley and Miles Davis's immortal version of the song on their album Somethin' Else).

That said, I agree that many current uses of sampling have demonstrated very little in the way of creativity beyond merely rapping over a looped section of the sampled tune (example -- whoever stole Steely Dan's "Black Cow" intro to rap over a few years ago needs to be pimp-slapped with a copy of Aja).

But the British Invasion bands stole from older blues artists and made something different out of what they heard because what they made appealed to a larger (read largely white) audience. Sad, but true. There is no more truly new music out there. It's now a matter of performance skills, lyrical talent, vocal/instrumental virtuosity and PROMOTION. Here today, gone today. If you're not writing hooks, you're not selling.

*snip*
I can find a few jazz songs about other drugs. But I guess they're OK. Rock songs about killing cops? No doubt. I'm not going to try, because this is ridiculous, a non-relevant distinction you're trying to make. Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet is about "consentual" sex with a 14 year old girl, but I don't see you whining about how that's a plague on all our houses.

You can't whine about it because 14 was only barely shy of adulthood in Shakespeare's day, when the life expectancy was 40 years. The current equivalent might be 18 and 16. Young, but not egregiously so.

Yeah, because those forms of music have had their day and gone.

Done being popular, but far from gone. Jazz (bands, combos and vocal ensembles) is a staple in middle- and high-schools across the US. It will always be around.


I don't think there are many jazz songs that celebrate selling crack and destroying society. Maybe you know of some that I don't, but I don't believe that you do.

MANY jazz songs about alcohol, some about cocaine and weed, hundreds about women (just not in current "gangsta" terminology, but considered just as racy in their day) and love but no jazz songs about crack -- why? OH YEAH, it hadn't hit the scene until about 1984, long past the time when jazz was King Popular. Jazz, as I mentioned earlier, was said to rot your soul and damn you to hell as Sin Music...by the whites who couldn't dig it.

Is it the same now with rap? Partially. Gangsta rap isn't written for white audiences, but I'm sure there's a current-day equivalent to the Cotton Club where whites who DO dig rap go to hear it. I'm no fan of outright misogyny and the advocation and glorification of destructive behavior, but that's never going to make me say something as vapid and baseless as "it isn't music".

It is mind boggling that a supposed liberal, progressive, what have you, would defend the quality of music which is entirely at odds with liberal and progressive goals. Everything isn't equally good, you'll probably figure that out some day.

Nobody is saying that calling it music equals calling it good. The problem this particular liberal has with your line of reasoning is that it damns an enitre genre, sound unheard, to the trash heap by insisting that it isn't even music. To me, that's just as damaging as the worst of the messages in rap because it gives ammunition to those who believe that it IS a race thing.

Can you name any other musical form commonly listened to by Westerners that doesn't involve singing other than rap? If not, then you must admit that rap lacks a common quality that all other Western musical forms have, at least insofar as vocal music goes.

If that is the case, then you will be hard pressed to give any real definition for music in general.

Therefore, I am assuming that because rap lacks what more or less absolutely every other accepted musical genre has, that rap is, in fact, not music. It's crap.

Why "Westerners"? That smacks of racism on its very surface, but I'll bite.

Vocal music that doesn't involve singing. There's the aofrementioned Sprechstimme, introduced by Schoenberg. The whispering of compositions by Scandinavian composers like Lars-Johan Von Werle and Sven-David Sandstrom. Composer Vijay Singh's composition entitled "Sh", which is composed of rhythmic shushing as the choir holds newpapers. I daresay that some square-dance calling is spoken-sung in something not even qualified as a distinct monotone. Beat poetry was spoken to walking bass lines and drums. There's an entire subgenre called "spoken word" that features music supporting what are effectively essays or poetry (see Henry Rollins or Maggie Estep).

I've already given my definition of music in an earlier post. Patterns of sounds and/or silences in time created or found and deliberately framed to be heard for an aesthetic purpose. There is music in birdsong, the sounds of the forest, a factory -- hell, I used to accompany myself on the local pizza parlor's dishwasher when I worked in high school, because the repetitive nature of the noises I was making suggested Pink Floyd's "Money" (I called it "(Lack of) Money" and re-wrote the lyric to suit my minimum-wage experience). The "aesthetic purpose" can be a concert, a serenade, or just for your own enjoyment.

I'll say it one last time, you've utterly failed to define, beyond your cryptically inane "chanting" comments, what music is, even to you. Face it, chum, you ran your weakness of argument into a university professor of music and it has crumbled. Thanks for playing.

Bullshit!



Some oral poetry (usually performed with bongos) have the exact same properties. It still ain't music.

That said, my point is even more strengthened whnen you consider the fact that most rap songs just sound FOOLISH when actually sung. Listen to this. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=4moXgu6aqfI)

I think that rap enthusiasts don't understand how idiotic rap is specifically because rap is said too damned fast for anyone to really catch the lyrics. But when it's slowed down and actually sung, when it actually is set to real music...it just doesn't make any sense.

You continue to generalize without having heard more than what's on the radio, in cars, or in the background to TV and movies. OF COURSE what's POPULAR is going to be of a mostly inferior quality with some shining exceptions. This DOES NOT MEAN you can slag an entire genre. There's just no way that you've heard it all.

Arrested Development rapped about racism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrested_Development_(hip_hop_group)

Lord I've really been real stressed
Down and out, losin ground
Although I am black and proud
Problems got me pessimistic
Brothers and sisters keep messin up
Why does it have to be so damn tuff?
I don't know where I can go
To let these ghosts out of my skull
My grandmas past, my brothers gone
I never at once felt so alone
I know you're supposed to be my steering wheel
Not just my spare tire (home)
But lord I ask you (home)
To be my guiding force and truth (home)
For some strange reason it had to be (home)
He guided me to Tennessee (home)

(Chorus) Take me to another place
Take me to another land
Make me forget all that hurts me
Let me understand your plan

Lord it's obvious we got a relationship
Talkin to each other every night and day
Although you're superior over me
We talk to each other in a friendship way
Then outta nowhere you tell me to break
Outta the country and into more country
Past Dyesburg into Ripley
Where the ghost of childhood haunts me
Walk the roads my forefathers walked
Climbed the trees my forefathers hung from
Ask those trees for all their wisdom
They tell me my ears are so young (home)
Go back to from whence you came (home)
My family tree my family name (home)
For some strange reason it had to be (home)
He guided me to Tennessee (home)

Chorus

Now I see the importance of history
Why people be in the mess that they be
Many journeys to freedom made in vain
By brothers on the corner playin ghetto games
I ask you lord why you enlightened me
Without the enlightment of all my folks
He said cuz I set myself on a quest for truth
And he was there to quench my thirst
But I am still thirsty...
The lord allowed me to drink some more
He said what I am searchin for are
The answers to all which are in front of me
The ultimate truth started to get blurry
For some strange reason it had to be
It was all a dream about Tennessee

Chorus

Us3 rapped about urban blight and was the first rap group to be released on the legendary jazz label, Blue Note.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US3

De La Soul, Digable Planets, Eminem's more serious stuff, hell Was (Not Was) did a cover of The Temptations' "Papa Was a Rollin' Stone" which featured G. Love E. rapping about absentee fathers.

If you're not going to go out of your way even a micron to confirm your sad assertion that there's nothing worth hearing, then you'll never be challenged. And pard'ner, that's exactly what people like you want. You have my pity.

Don't like rap. but I don't Dis it. if you like it, it's cool. I don't mind it being played on the radio or whatever, as long as what I consider music is also played.

it's all cool.

I'm a musical elitist. I only listen to indie-rock.

That said, my point is even more strengthened whnen you consider the fact that most rap songs just sound FOOLISH when actually sung.
That's because they are meant to be rapped.

I think that rap enthusiasts don't understand how idiotic rap is specifically because rap is said too damned fast for anyone to really catch the lyrics.
As totally opposed to rock or metal.

But when it's slowed down and actually sung,
The speed of the words is variable, but not sung.

when it actually is set to real music
Do you propose it isn't "real music"? Get a good turntablist in there, former Jam Master Jay, Cut Chemist, etc.

...it just doesn't make any sense.
So, if you sing rap lyrics and change the music it is set to, it doesn't make any sense? Well I should fucking hope it doesn't considering it isn't the same thing any more.

"Hmm, I'm going to call this tomato an apple and coat it in caramel and put it on a wooden stick but it doesn't taste like an apple so tomatoes suck."

As totally opposed to rock or metal.
Ownd :cool:

Me? I don't much care about tagging a genre to music. If something's good then it's good, if it's bad then it's bad.

btw. You rap-is-not-music-wail people should try some noizecore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noizecore) for reference :p

I'm a musical elitist. I only listen to indie-rock.

Branch out a bit, milady -- you can't possibly live on one genre alone.

So, Intagelon do you like rap or not?

Bullshit!

Gee, what a well-worded and thought out rebuttal. I stand corrected, you've single-handedly convinced me that rap has no singing, as well as that the sky is blue because it feels sand.

Some oral poetry (usually performed with bongos) have the exact same properties. It still ain't music.

Actually it is.


I think that rap enthusiasts don't understand how idiotic rap is specifically because rap is said too damned fast for anyone to really catch the lyrics. But when it's slowed down and actually sung, when it actually is set to real music...it just doesn't make any sense.

I'm not a "rap enthusiast." I'm just not an ignorant pseudo-elitist who thinks his personal likes or dislikes are the arbiter of what is music. In fact, I'm a music major and I was composing symphonies when you were too young to understand why your pubes were growing. But hey, you said "bullshit" a while back, and that's a pretty convincing reason why I'm wrong. ;)

THE BIG ANSWER POST.



It was. Jazz was said to corrupt those who listened to it and those who played it were unabashed sinners. Hell, the name "jazz" is a corruption of "jizz".


Yep. Corruptin' our youth. Destroyin' our society.

That's why it was banned in Hitler's Germany. We had to protect Society. If times were different then it would have been rap, and folks like New Granada would have applauded Hitler's moral uprightness.

You can't whine about it because 14 was only barely shy of adulthood in Shakespeare's day, when the life expectancy was 40 years. The current equivalent might be 18 and 16. Young, but not egregiously so.

14 is 14 is 14. Cultural norms were different then, yes, but then cultural norms are different in say, "rap culture" than in Gens Romae's ... culture, whatever it is. That certainly doesn't stop him from whining about such things, why can't I whine about Juliet being statuatory raped?

Done being popular, but far from gone. Jazz (bands, combos and vocal ensembles) is a staple in middle- and high-schools across the US. It will always be around.

Yeah, yeah. But the heyday is gone. Now it's Britney Spears' day.

Like with any genre label that tries to cover a huge body of work, the question is meaningless.

I like older rap, going back to Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, NWA, Public Enemy, Run-DMC and the like. Really, really hate the gangster rappers who made their felony records more important than talent. Find some of the rock/rap and metal/rap fusions interesting.

Can you name any other musical form commonly listened to by Westerners that doesn't involve singing other than rap?

beatboxing. certain musical types of poetry performance. instrumental music.

If not, then you must admit that rap lacks a common quality that all other Western musical forms have, at least insofar as vocal music goes.

but you have defined vocal music as music that involves singing. that doesn't get you anywhere, as you admit the existence of other types of music, and therefore signing has fuck-all to do with whether something is music or not. this ain't fucking complicated.

if something is not a defining feature of a category - for example, due to the inclusion of other things lacking it into that category - then the lack of that thing can not be used to exclude anything else from the category either. instrumental music is music and lacks singing. therefore the alleged utter lack of singing in rap has no bearing whatsoever on the question of whether rap is music. got a different stupid argument you'd like to try?

beatboxing. certain musical types of poetry performance. instrumental music.
Try one Gens Romae would be forced to respect I bet: Gregorian Chant.

At the moment i am currently wearing a shirt that says 'Support The Fine Arts Shoot A Rapper' says it all really.

Try one Gens Romae would be forced to respect I bet: Gregorian Chant.

I doubt he would. Most rap-haters aren't exactly musically appreciative. They like to feign superiority and elitism, but then they turn on their own shitty, popular music just like most anyone.

At the moment i am currently wearing a shirt that says 'Support The Fine Arts Shoot A Rapper' says it all really.
At least when my shirts say that I am an elitist hypocrite, they are amusing.

Branch out a bit, milady -- you can't possibly live on one genre alone.

YES I CAN! Well, I listen to a bit of indie-pop, too. And alt-rock that's less indie.

At least when my shirts say that I am an elitist hypocrite, they are amusing.

Mine has a snazzy picture of a gun on it.

Mine has a snazzy picture of a gun on it.

That makes it neither amusing nor makes you any less of an elitist hypocrite.

You: "Hey, I hate rap - it isn't music and it objectifies women and encourages violence."
Me: "Then why does your shirt say 'shoot a rapper'? Isn't that encouraging violence?"
You: "I know, isn't it cool?

Some rap I like, some I don't. I prefer an orchestra movie theme. That's music that realy puts you in a mood. And some good rock music goes down real well. Listen to Peepshow!

Neo-Rap sucks,it has sucked for years, Long live RUN-DMC!!

Neo-Rap sucks,it has sucked for years, Long live RUN-DMC!!

Jurassic 5 prior to Feedback.

Feedback isn't bad, but Cut Chemist left to make The Audience's Listening (which I recommend if you like Run-DMC too; it isn't alot of lyrical stuff, mostly turntablism and mixing.) and they picked up a mainstream DJ/producer. You can tell the tracks he worked on primarily and the tracks DJ Nu Mark worked on primarily. Nu Mark tracks sound like old Jurassic 5 and new guy tracks sound like Jurassic 5 on top of standard mainstream hip hop riffs.

I doubt he would. Most rap-haters aren't exactly musically appreciative. They like to feign superiority and elitism, but then they turn on their own shitty, popular music just like most anyone.

I take objection to that; I'm a "rap-hater", and my musical tastes are neither pop, nor crappy.

I doubt he would. Most rap-haters aren't exactly musically appreciative. They like to feign superiority and elitism, but then they turn on their own shitty, popular music just like most anyone.

Your making a generalization, something you've been using to defend your own opinion.

Hoppa;12874854']Your making a generalization, something you've been using to defend your own opinion.

Yeah, it's a generalization. But it's not my argument for anything, so it's not the same.

I take objection to that; I'm a "rap-hater", and my musical tastes are neither pop, nor crappy.

Yeah right.

Try one Gens Romae would be forced to respect I bet: Gregorian Chant.

Are (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-xWPurvCQAc) you (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-fMHms5Cvsw) deaf (http://youtube.com/watch?v=E2WMhaogDsI)?

Yeah, it's a generalization. But it's not my argument for anything, so it's not the same.



Yeah right.

No, I'm right. Coming from somebody who refuses to listen to bands when they become mainstream, you can rest assured I'm not into "pop" music in the strictly genre sense of the term. Equally, I wonder whether you could quite dispute that Thrice or "Vertigo of Bliss" Biffy are not simply awesome.

No, I'm right. Coming from somebody who refuses to listen to bands when they become mainstream, you can rest assured I'm not into "pop" music in the strictly genre sense of the term. Equally, I wonder whether you could quite dispute that Thrice or "Vertigo of Bliss" Biffy are not simply awesome.

I'm not using the "genre" sense of the term. You like the same dumb shit everyone else does, same old popular song forms, bands, boring harmonies and instruments, some dude or girl whining into a mike like I'm supposed to care. As for your specific examples, I'm sure I could, if I could be bothered to listen to such drivel.

I'm not using the "genre" sense of the term. You like the same dumb shit everyone else does, same old popular song forms, bands, boring harmonies and instruments, some dude or girl whining into a mike like I'm supposed to care. As for your specific examples, I'm sure I could, if I could be bothered to listen to such drivel.

I really would love to be you. If only you weren't so caustically unpleasant, I'd pity you.

Care to discuss your musical tastes? Have you found some form of song wholly original from all that have gone before?

I really would love to be you.

Indeed.

If only you weren't so caustically unpleasant, I'd pity you.

You're not really the epitome of pleasantry yourself.

Care to discuss your musical tastes? Have you found some form of song wholly original from all that have gone before?

See, this is how trapped you are into the popular forms. You can't even conceive of music as anything but songs. It's indicative of the loss of intellect and attention span of each new generation. Soundbytes and multimedia, that's all anyone wants or knows now.

Indeed.

hmm...

You're not really the epitome of pleasantry yourself.

I am, just not to the likes of you.

See, this is how trapped you are into the popular forms. You can't even conceive of music as anything but songs. It's indicative of the loss of intellect and attention span of each new generation. Soundbytes and multimedia, that's all anyone wants or knows now.

Oh dear god. Please do not start prattling about "natural music", or, god forbid, "earth music".

I define my life by anglo-saxon presuppositions; hence, I perceive music as a medium transmitted by songs, recitals, and the like. It is not indicative of a lack of intellect or attention; I simply refuse to subscribe to relativist, post-modern tripe that suggests that two pelicans and a snake recorded in spring is of equal merit to a seminal track.

YES I CAN! Well, I listen to a bit of indie-pop, too. And alt-rock that's less indie.

Well, there's no accounting for personal tastes. I would find such a narrow sonic diet to be...tedious.

Not that this fact matters even a bit.

Hoppa;12874506']So, Intagelon do you like rap or not?

*sigh*

I'd hoped that it might be made clear that the praise or demonization of an entire genre of music is a worthless exercise in self-validation. "I like X because I identify with X and X makes me feel cool. Y doesn't appeal to me, so therefore Y is awful and nasty and sucks." This is the way children think.

I have a dozen or so rap albums (from Arrested Development to Us3, alphabetically) in my collection of 300+ CDs. It is difficult, in all the mainstream noise, to find rap I do enjoy, but it IS out there, if you're willing to actively search for it. As a music prof, I do a disservice to music if I trash an entire genre of it. I may not go to live shows or buy many CDs of some genres, but that's not going to make me dismiss it out of hand, sound unheard. That's musical racism.

To properly answer you, though, I like some rap. Just like I enjoy some early, medieval, Renaissance, baroque, empfindsamkeit, classical, romantic, impressionist, serialist, nationalist, neo-romantic, musique concrete, aleatoric, waltz, march, blues, spiritual, gospel, ragtime, stride, boogie-woogie, hot jazz, barrelhouse, jive, jump, sweet band, swing band, bebop, hard bop, cool, funk (Horace Silver), folk, Celtic, bluegrass, country, rhythm & blues, rock 'n roll, rockabilly, rock, psychadelic rock, progressive rock, hard rock, metal, soul, soul-funk (George Clinton), disco, punk, new wave, pop, hip-hop, new jack, grunge, "alternative" (whatever the flyin' fuck that means), and any number of assorted amalgams, combinations, hybrids and melanges thereof, whose splintered classifications are getting incredibly ridiculous.

I have a simple grid: there's what I can tolerate, what I like, what I love, and what I'd want played at my funeral. The genre is of minimal consideration, save perhaps to explain to others what it might sound like if I haven't got the tracks with me.

Example: there's a band from Quebec called La Bouttine Souriante. They play folk/fiddle/reel tunes, but they're a large ensemble that includes a horn section. Listening them is like hearing a combination between Great Big Sea and Tower of Power. Simple tunes done within soul-funk arrangements, featuring horn licks and improvisation space. These guys are a TRIP live. Your mind doesn't know what to make of them, but your body wants to dance. So what genre do I put them in? Funky Celtic? Does that tell me anything? Not really. Sample the music and decide for yourself. Genres are there largely to make selling easier.

Ownd :cool:

Me? I don't much care about tagging a genre to music. If something's good then it's good, if it's bad then it's bad.


You said what I did, only far more succinctly. You win the thread.

Yep. Corruptin' our youth. Destroyin' our society.

That's why it was banned in Hitler's Germany. We had to protect Society. If times were different then it would have been rap, and folks like New Granada would have applauded Hitler's moral uprightness.

I liked Swing Kids, too. Janis Siegel's version of "Bei Mir Bist Du Schoen" from that soundtrack is a classic.

14 is 14 is 14. Cultural norms were different then, yes, but then cultural norms are different in say, "rap culture" than in Gens Romae's ... culture, whatever it is. That certainly doesn't stop him from whining about such things, why can't I whine about Juliet being statuatory raped?

I disagree, but I don't wish to debate about it. 14 was not then what 14 is now, in this era of artificially extended adolescence, on the average. And wishing to whine about something just because Gens did...well...*shudder*. And thank you for forcing me to imagine life in Gens' "culture" *double shudder*.

Yeah, yeah. But the heyday is gone. Now it's Britney Spears' day.

Most likely, but it will always survive. I'd put up a decent high school jazz choir vocalist against Britney any day of the week, vocally speaking. Pop tartlets have never needed much in the way of skill in music. Marketing, media savvy, trend-usurping, yes.

Try one Gens Romae would be forced to respect I bet: Gregorian Chant.

Uh...Gregorian chant IS singing, man. Just 'cause it's in Latin doesn't mean they're not singing. It's the earliest recorded singing, in fact. Way back before the clefs, the staff and the notes we know today. Their sheet music was the lead monk's open palm. We get the word "gamut" as in "run the gamut" from that palm and the hymn used to train singers in scales and modes back then. The lowest "ut" (now "do", pronounced "dough") was called the "gamma ut".

Ut queant laxis
resonare fibris,
Mira gestorum
famuli tuorum,
Solve polluti
labii reatum,
Sancte Ioannes.

At the moment i am currently wearing a shirt that says 'Support The Fine Arts Shoot A Rapper' says it all really.

That sobbing you hear is me, weeping for the future.

I take objection to that; I'm a "rap-hater", and my musical tastes are neither pop, nor crappy.

Thou sayest.

Are (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-xWPurvCQAc) you (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-fMHms5Cvsw) deaf (http://youtube.com/watch?v=E2WMhaogDsI)?

No. I think the bloke you're replying to misunderstood your post because you left the word "vocal" far away from "Western music without singing". Don't blame him for your poor sentence structure.

Incidentally, by not replying to me but replying to those who posted after me, and STILL thinking you know what you're talking about? That means you've been owned, junior.

No, I'm right. Coming from somebody who refuses to listen to bands when they become mainstream, you can rest assured I'm not into "pop" music in the strictly genre sense of the term. Equally, I wonder whether you could quite dispute that Thrice or "Vertigo of Bliss" Biffy are not simply awesome.

Wait. Did I read that right? You're proud of the fact that you abandon bands because they become popular? Do you have any idea how lame that is? A band's JOB is not to go broke making music for poseur musical intellectuals. Musicians must eat, like everyone else. I've been performing in an unpopular genre for two decades, and I'd give half my liver and a kidney to have ONE Britney-level hit and rake in as much money as I could. 'Cause then I'd get to set up my own studio and record the stuff I love. Would any band sell out? They either do, or they get lucky enough to have their sound become popular around them. Failing that, they toil not only in obscurity, but poverty, unless they've got their monthly nut taken care of by some other means (day jobs, for example).

It ain't a sell-out (IMO) unless you do something designed to capitalize after you've made your money. I would tour for a year and wear whatever a label told me to wear and sing at Disneyland -- all of it -- to be financially secure enough to not HAVE to go to work, but WANT to. I'm not talkin' private-jet rich, either. I'd be delirious with no-bills-but-the-mortgage money.

Ceasing to listen to a band because they won the damn LOTTERY seems incredibly shallow to me.

When i listen to Rap, i can feel my IQ drop 30 points.

*sigh*

I I may not go to live shows or buy many CDs of some genres, but that's not going to make me dismiss it out of hand, sound unheard. That's musical racism.


Wow ladies and gentlemen, i thought id seen and heard it all, but alas no, id like to indrocuce to everyone here a new concept never seen or heard about before today to the best of my knowledge. Its called musical racism. Enjoy. (Personally Im envisioning a game of musical chairs with only minorities but the possibilities are endless )

Wow ladies and gentlemen, i thought id seen and heard it all, but alas no, id like to indrocuce to everyone here a new concept never seen or heard about before today to the best of my knowledge. Its called musical racism. Enjoy. (Personally Im envisioning a game of musical chairs with only minorities but the possibilities are endless )

It's an analogy. Forgive me for trying to make myself clear to a raving literalist.

"Musicism" just seemed too awkward, as did "genreism".

If you can think of a better way to describe slagging an entire genre based on a few examples (which I made akin to judging a whole race by a few interactions -- see the parallel?), please have at it. "Musical racism" was the best idea I had at the time. None better came to mind, and still dont. Please enlighten me.

It's an analogy. Forgive me for trying to make myself clear to a raving literalist.

"Musicism" just seemed too awkward, as did "genreism".

If you can think of a better way to describe slagging an entire genre based on a few examples (which I made akin to judging a whole race by a few interactions -- see the parallel?), please have at it. "Musical racism" was the best idea I had at the time. None better came to mind, and still dont. Please enlighten me.


Just say what you mean, inventing words to force fit into your terminology isnt nessesary.

You can't spell crap without rap.

Just say what you mean, inventing words to force fit into your terminology isnt nessesary.

Uh...I did.

"Musical" is the adjective, and "racism", the noun, used allegorically (race is to racism as genre is to musical racism). I didn't invent any words. Again, I'm sorry if you don't like the terminology, but nobody else seems to mind, and it obviously got through to you, or you wouldn't be wasting your time attempting to mock it.

You can't spell crap without rap.

Neither can you spell "simplistic" without "simp".

Are (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-xWPurvCQAc) you (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-fMHms5Cvsw) deaf (http://youtube.com/watch?v=E2WMhaogDsI)?

So Gregorian Chant is or is not music?

I take objection to that; I'm a "rap-hater", and my musical tastes are neither pop, nor crappy.

I disagree. You're musical tastes are crappy, I don't even have to know what they are.

I use your own argument against you. Shazam.

Uh...Gregorian chant IS singing, man.
They are not "singing" in the sense he is demanding it.
Let's "sing" it and change the music it is set to or add music, then it won't make sense :rolleyes:

And I really don't give two shits about or need your ridiculous history of it.

You can't spell crap without rap.
Or without cap.

I enjoy lots of music, and i haven't found any genre which has no decent representations. I used to hate lyrics, and i'd just listen to jazz&classical, but then my brother introduced me to certain rock\alternative bands. That's where I'm at now.

However, I find most rap quite mindless and crude. For example, the MIMS single This is why I'm hot topped the itunes sons for days. If you've heard that song, then you'll agree with me that songs like it are the reason for the influx in musical racism.

They are not "singing" in the sense he is demanding it.
Let's "sing" it and change the music it is set to or add music, then it won't make sense :rolleyes:

And I really don't give two shits about or need your ridiculous history of it.


Uh...the group Enigma did exactly that and scored a sizeable hit in the mid 90s (1995?). They took plainchant and set it to mild electronic beats. I'm sorry you haven't the stomach for history, it seems paying some attention would have saved you from being so wrong in your first paragraph.

hmm...



I am, just not to the likes of you.


Or immigrants... or non-whites... or "liberals"... or people who tear apart your arguments online.

And probably a great deal of others.


Oh dear god. Please do not start prattling about "natural music", or, god forbid, "earth music".

I'm rather tempted to. I'm sure it'll be as entertaining for you as your stupid "rap is crap" mantras.

I define my life by anglo-saxon presuppositions; hence, I perceive music as a medium transmitted by songs, recitals, and the like. It is not indicative of a lack of intellect or attention; I simply refuse to subscribe to relativist, post-modern tripe that suggests that two pelicans and a snake recorded in spring is of equal merit to a seminal track.

There's nothing "post-modern" about going beyond "songs" for music. I suppose the word "symphony" means little to you because of your "anglo-saxon presuppositions?"

Uh...I did.

"Musical" is the adjective, and "racism", the noun, used allegorically (race is to racism as genre is to musical racism). I didn't invent any words. Again, I'm sorry if you don't like the terminology, but nobody else seems to mind, and it obviously got through to you, or you wouldn't be wasting your time attempting to mock it.

In order for music to have qualities defined by race it must contain DNA. Since it doesnt it is impossible for music to be defined in any way by race and doing so is a misapplication, allegorically or otherwise.

*snip*
There's nothing "post-modern" about going beyond "songs" for music. I suppose the word "symphony" means little to you because of your "anglo-saxon presuppositions?"

I was tempted to chime in here, but you clearly need no help. Rock on.

In order for music to have qualities defined by race it must contain DNA. Since it doesnt it is impossible for music to be defined in any way by race and doing so is a misapplication, allegorically or otherwise.

It can't be a misapplication if I'm using it metaphorically. Human beings can be classified into races. Music can be classified into genres. When one disparages an entire race because of a few examples of that race, one is a racist. When one disparages an entire genre based on a few examples of that genre, I decided to call that person a "musical racist" because I could think of no more accurate terms.

Again, I ask that you provide me with a better one if you have it. If you don't, then please stop being deliberately obtuse because you don't like my choice of words. I'm done arguing about this unless you've come up with that better term. Thanks.

Uh...the group Enigma did exactly that and scored a sizeable hit in the mid 90s (1995?). They took plainchant and set it to mild electronic beats. I'm sorry you haven't the stomach for history, it seems paying some attention would have saved you from being so wrong in your first paragraph.
I was mocking his point about why he hates rap music.

According to Wikipedia, the music was dancehall. Dancehall/electronic fans are weird. Dancehall especially makes no sense, it takes songs, any songs, and puts them to about the same electronic beats. Anything can be dancehall. "Sizable hit" would probably require some perspective. To say they used Gregorian Chants in a dancehall format to get a "sizable hit" is a bit exaggerated because the Gregorian Chant as music itself was probably irrelevant.

Uh...I did.

"Musical" is the adjective, and "racism", the noun, used allegorically (race is to racism as genre is to musical racism). I didn't invent any words. Again, I'm sorry if you don't like the terminology, but nobody else seems to mind, and it obviously got through to you, or you wouldn't be wasting your time attempting to mock it.

In order for music to have qualities defined by race it must contain DNA. Since it doesnt it is impossible for music to be defined in any way by race and doing so is a misapplication, allegorically or otherwise.

1) It is a form of music.

2) I think it is god-awful. I avoid it as much as possible.

Current rap is total shit.

Well it would be, but at least shit makes plants grow faster and healther.

Try listening to "Pop my trunk" and "We fly high"

Seriously, calling rap shit is giving it too much credit.

In order for music to have qualities defined by race it must contain DNA.

First, "race" is mostly a social construct based on stereotypical and, often, non-existent differences. Not DNA.

Second, anything can have "qualities defined by race," if that is the cultural norm. For example, white nationalist symbols do not have DNA, yet possess qualities defined by the concept of race.

Given the above it's completely possible to have "black music" or "white music" or "jewish music."

Current rap is total shit.

Well it would be, but at least shit makes plants grow faster and healther.

Try listening to "Pop my trunk" and "We fly high"

Seriously, calling rap shit is giving it too much credit.

Oh please, two songs? Sure, let's categorize the whole of rap by two songs. Two I have never even heard of.

http://www.jurassic5.com/
They only have 3 on the internal player and only 2 are lyrical, listen to either. Turn It Out is sole Jurassic 5.

The Roots - Here I Come (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfnZizOikwU)

Your move.

Oh please, two songs? Sure, let's categorize the whole of rap by two songs. Two I have never even heard of.

http://www.jurassic5.com/
They only have 3 on the internal player and only 2 are lyrical, listen to either. Turn It Out is sole Jurassic 5.

The Roots - Here I Come (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfnZizOikwU)

Your move.

I could list 99% of other rap songs that I've listened to, and they all suck.

In fact, all rap has sucked since about 1992.

I could list 99% of other rap songs that I've listened to, and they all suck.

In fact, all rap has sucked since about 1992.
Yeah, too bad both those links I have are to songs produced in 2006.

You fail, sorry.

Yeah, too bad both those links I have are to songs produced in 2006.

You fail, sorry.

Songs in 2006?

Uh... I just said rap has sucked since 1992...

That being said, why would I waste my time to listening to some of the shittiest music ever created?

Songs in 2006?

Uh... I just said rap has sucked since 1992...

That being said, why would I waste my time to listening to some of the shittiest music ever created?
So all of it magically became shitty after 1992? I would take it you listened to it before 1992? But that would mean you "wasted your time" listening to the "shittiest music ever created." Maybe you should get your shit straight before going around arguing about how what you hate is the epitome of bad.

Not only do I win because I proved you wrong, I win by default because you refuse to even look at the evidence.

So all of it magically became shitty after 1992? I would take it you listened to it before 1992? But that would mean you "wasted your time" listening to the "shittiest music ever created." Maybe you should get your shit straight before going around arguing about how what you hate is the epitome of bad.

Not only do I win because I proved you wrong, I win by default because you refuse to even look at the evidence.

You misunderstand. Current rap (Mid 90s - now) is the shittiest music ever created.

Why did rap go to shit after 1992 or so? I don't know, you seem to like it more than me, so I'll let you decide that.

Anyway, how can this be a real argument if it's a matter of opinion? :rolleyes:

I guess it's you who had better "get your shit straight."

You misunderstand. Current rap (Mid 90s - now) is the shittiest music ever created.

Why did rap go to shit after 1992 or so? I don't know, you seem to like it more than me, so I'll let you decide that.

Anyway, how can this be a real argument if it's a matter of opinion? :rolleyes:

I guess it's you who had better "get your shit straight."

You refuse to even look at any rap music produced post 1992. Therefore you can't sit there and judge all rap music.

Like most Genres, it has its good and bad artists. I don't dislike rap as a music form; however, I don't like most of the current day lyrics. On the other hand, I'm always up for a little Sugarhill Gang, Run-DMC, Grandmaster Flash, or The Fresh Prince.

I've got to put this in here.. I just got this in my You Tube messages.

Quote: how u goon say tha east coast be west coast nigaz azz mayb them la niggaz but if a new york niga tryna fuk wit me amma murk his shit fuk those tryna be hard bitches in new york their crime and murder rate hella low they aint evn considrd hard no mor oh and tha south will fuk tha east coast up 2 so jst letn u know cuddie :End

incase you can't see my sig.. I added

'do agree with his point of the south fuckin up the north tho' hehe :p

What do I think of Rap?

I try not to.

The Jazz - Tribe Called Quest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhWyGrSV82M)

That is not crap. Just one example.

Gang Starr (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EWJ9JrxU0g) #2

KRS 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DTGFAw-u1o) #3 (actually 1) skip near the end :/


I don't know why I try .. no one here ever pays attention. I just hope some of you see it.

Wanna see militant? No not PE ..


The hate that hate produced (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgXnlMC0lSc)

check the jews on the right of the table.. christians on the left I'm sure. So it's basically Chrisitian and Jew versus Muslim. That muslim is the 5%. a Branch off of the NOI .. Nation of Islam. Similar to a off branch of chrisitianity. ... not that much in common with the first. Every religion has it's branches.

Some moron forgot to put the c in front of the name. That sums my opinion up pretty well.

Ditto here; couldnta said it better myself! :D

Wanna see militant? No not PE ..


The hate that hate produced (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgXnlMC0lSc)

check the jews on the right of the table.. christians on the left I'm sure. So it's basically Chrisitian and Jew versus Muslim. That muslim is the 5%. a Branch off of the NOI .. Nation of Islam. Similar to a off branch of chrisitianity. ... not that much in common with the first. Every religion has it's branches.

What is the "Nation of Islam"? I thought Islam was a religion, not a country.

:confused:

Ditto here; couldnta said it better myself! :D

Indeed, I too doubt you could have.

Indeed, I too doubt you could have.

Hahaha ALMOST funny! :rolleyes:

Duh huh yup.