NationStates Jolt Archive

This is Rotovia's fiance. I have 2 accounts (knowyourright and amor pulchritudo) but they're both inactive because I never have any time to go on here....

Anyway, we stumbled across this article.

"Boy 'tortured for six hours by bullies'
Thursday Jul 5 05:00 AEST

By ninemsn staff

A 13-year-old Perth boy was brutally tortured for six hours by a pack of bullies who shoved him into a grave and began to bury him, a court has been told.

Five boys, ranging in age from 12 to 14, are accused of dragging the boy from school to a bush camp and attacking him in several cruel and bizarre ways.

Police allege the boy was first forced into a toilet at the government high school in the Perth hills Wednesday morning, where the others told him to follow their orders or be bashed.



He was then made to run into the bushland behind the school where he was forced into a makeshift hut, The Australian reports.

The boy was first given a "wedgie" and hung from a tree by the back of his underpants, Prosecutor John Dart told Perth Children's Court.

Over the next six hours the boy was allegedly beaten and prodded with a plank of wood riddled with nails.

The court heard that sandwiches were smeared across the victim's face, while one of the boys opened the victim's lunchbox and urinated in it.

The group then allegedly threatened him with an axe and made him crawl on his hands and knees and act like dog.

The abuse culminated with the boy allegedly being pushed into a makeshift grave dug by the boys, who began shovelling dirt on top of him.

He was told that he would be forced to sleep in the hut before they returned at 3am the next day to kill him, the court heard.

The five boys are each charged with deprivation of liberty, threatening to kill, and assault occasioning bodily harm.

Police said the boy was constantly crying throughout the attack, and was so scared he wet his pants twice.

The boy suffered bruises and lacerations to his legs, back and buttocks in the ordeal.

He eventually got away and ran home, where he told his mother who alerted the school and police.

All five of the alleged attackers have been suspended temporarily while the school decides on a punishment.

The alleged attackers and the victim are all Year 8 students"


I think the children should be expelled & have charges pressed against them. It also makes me question their parents. Bullying has always been an issue in schools, but where do we draw the line? Are these kids simply being kids, or is there something awfully wrong with them? If they're 13 now, will they grow out of it, or will their behaviour get worse? Next time, will they kill someone?

-- Amor Pulchritudo on Rotovia's account.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,22020009-2702,00.html

I tihnk I'll have to recalibrate my "Faith-in-Humanity-O-Meter", it wasn't designed for negative numbers. :(

There is DEFINITELY something wrong with those... people. They may easily have killed him. This is not something to do with childhood, it's the same thing wrong with rapists and murderers and tortures of any type. Whether they wear a uniform or not.

I tihnk I'll have to recalibrate my "Faith-in-Humanity-O-Meter", it wasn't designed for negative numbers. :(

Hell mine just exploded after reading that story.

Such disgusting behavior is not really surprising. Humans are much better at cruelty then kindness after all. I doubt these boys will see much punishment though, I'm sure people will whine that they are "only" kids and so should be let off with little consequences.

Hell mine just exploded after reading that story.

You wouldn't believe some of the things I've read this morning... I'm reading articles on 'gay bashings' and people being 'bullied to death'. It's unbelievable. I don't even know how to respond.

-- Amor Pulchritudo

What is an appropriate punishment for this in everyones opinion?

What is an appropriate punishment for this in everyones opinion?

Jail time, and I mean serious Jail time.

Such disgusting behavior is not really surprising. Humans are much better at cruelty then kindness after all. I doubt these boys will see much punishment though, I'm sure people will whine that they are "only" kids and so should be let off with little consequences.

"Ho hum, boys will be boys. This wouldn't have happened if the kid was manly enough. Probably raised only by his mother. The traditional family is falling apart. Damn liberal media."

Yeah, I've actually heard arguments pretty much along those lines about a similar instance of what was described as "hazing."

In any case, all the kids involved in this need counseling. The tortured kid for PTSD and the bullies for their sociopathic tendencies.

"Ho hum, boys will be boys. This wouldn't have happened if the kid was manly enough. Probably raised only by his mother. The traditional family is falling apart. Damn liberal media."

Yeah, I've actually heard arguments pretty much along those lines about a similar instance of what was described as "hazing."

In any case, all the kids involved in this need counseling. The tortured kid for PTSD and the bullies for their sociopathic tendencies.

Oh please, we don't need to 'coddle' the bullies, we need to put them in jail where they'll receive the same treatment that they gave to the poor kid and then they'll see what it's like.

Throw the little Wyrmspawns in irons and sell 'em into white slavery.

Lock their parents up, too.

We get a lot of "children are pure and innocent they commit atrocities because they learn it from their parents" lip out here on the Left Coast of America. How many adults do you know that regularly do things like that on a daily basis? (Outside the Middle East and Deep South, that is)

The truth is, this is the basic humanoid condition. Adulthood happens when the individual learns that it's NOT OKAY to do things like that, not at a certain age. Doesn't matter whether they're 12 or 35, if you brutalize other people you're not a human adult.

Yeah, I've actually heard arguments pretty much along those lines about a similar instance of what was described as "hazing."



I've heard similar things.

While I don't have a problem with "hazing" when all involved know exactly what it is, and are willing to go through it, it seems the rule is that you go through it no matter how you feel about it.

This goes way beyond cruelty. I mean this is like childhood Terrorism so to speak. I say through them in jail untill they are adults.


I blame Eli Roth and his movies.

How do you do that for six hours? Thank god my bullies apparently had a short attention span.

Little fuckers. I don't know how you get through to monsters like that.

Oh please, we don't need to 'coddle' the bullies, we need to put them in jail where they'll receive the same treatment that they gave to the poor kid and then they'll see what it's like.

I'd prefer they be turned into productive members of society, if at all possible.

I'd prefer they be turned into productive members of society, if at all possible.

You think these bullies can be productive members of society? Excuse me for a minute.

*walks out and laughs so hard my face turn red, then walks back in*

*ahem* Look, all the therapist is going to do is tell the kids parents about why they did this, and why it's not the kids nor the parents fault, and instead somehow it's society fault, and at the end of the day, subscribe enough medications to turn the kids into zombies, that's all that's going to happen with therapy.

You think these bullies can be productive members of society? Excuse me for a minute.
No one is beyond redemption.
*walks out and laughs so hard my face turn red, then walks back in*

*ahem* Look, all the therapist is going to do is tell the kids parents about why they did this, and why it's not the kids nor the parents fault, and instead somehow it's society fault, and at the end of the day, subscribe enough medications to turn the kids into zombies, that's all that's going to happen with therapy.
I suppose you must have had some awfully bad therapists in your day. I'm sorry.

You think these bullies can be productive members of society? Excuse me for a minute.

*walks out and laughs so hard my face turn red, then walks back in*

*ahem* Look, all the therapist is going to do is tell the kids parents about why they did this, and why it's not the kids nor the parents fault, and instead somehow it's society fault, and at the end of the day, subscribe enough medications to turn the kids into zombies, that's all that's going to happen with therapy.

Pretty much so. You explained it perfectly.

No one is beyond redemption.

Yea, but when you pretty much did everything except kill him to your fellow man, and that was because he escaped from your little death trap, ehhh, my magical 8 ball says that redemption is "not likely".

You think these bullies can be productive members of society? Excuse me for a minute.

*walks out and laughs so hard my face turn red, then walks back in*

*ahem* Look, all the therapist is going to do is tell the kids parents about why they did this, and why it's not the kids nor the parents fault, and instead somehow it's society fault, and at the end of the day, subscribe enough medications to turn the kids into zombies, that's all that's going to happen with therapy.

And you think prison will do any better? All sadistic little monsters like that will get out of jail time will be new techniques for causing pain and humiliation.

"Ho hum, boys will be boys. This wouldn't have happened if the kid was manly enough. Probably raised only by his mother. The traditional family is falling apart. Damn liberal media."

Yeah, I've actually heard arguments pretty much along those lines about a similar instance of what was described as "hazing."

In any case, all the kids involved in this need counseling. The tortured kid for PTSD and the bullies for their sociopathic tendencies.

Considering their sociopathic tendencies they certainly need mandatory counceling but I think a little confinment in a juvenile institution will show them that perhaps torturing other kids isn't a good thing. Oh, and if the kids parents have any money they should get sued by the parents of the victim, clearly they aren't doing anything even close that could be called responsible parenting. If this was a schoolyard fight I would change my mind but this is just...

You think these bullies can be productive members of society? Excuse me for a minute.

*walks out and laughs so hard my face turn red, then walks back in*

*ahem* Look, all the therapist is going to do is tell the kids parents about why they did this, and why it's not the kids nor the parents fault, and instead somehow it's society fault, and at the end of the day, subscribe enough medications to turn the kids into zombies, that's all that's going to happen with therapy.

A therapist should look for the cause of the problem so I don't see how they do their job without attributing blame in that way.

A therapist should look for the cause of the problem so I don't see how they do their job without attributing blame in that way.

Therapists often don't look for causes and instead try to treat the problems as they are.

In any case though.... cause is not the same as blame.

Poor kid. Though I was bullied up until about a year ago, all I got was insults and left out. This kid got tortured. The attackers should definitely be locked up.

No one is beyond redemption.

In death maybe. But you notice most people convicted of a sex crime end up doing it again?

Therapists often don't look for causes and instead try to treat the problems as they are.

In any case though.... cause is not the same as blame.

I know its not the same but i'm trying to phrase it in a way that Wilgrove will listen to

Yea, but when you pretty much did everything except kill him to your fellow man, and that was because he escaped from your little death trap, ehhh, my magical 8 ball says that redemption is "not likely".
That does not mean we should not try.
Considering their sociopathic tendencies they certainly need mandatory counceling but I think a little confinment in a juvenile institution will show them that perhaps torturing other kids isn't a good thing. Oh, and if the kids parents have any money they should get sued by the parents of the victim, clearly they aren't doing anything even close that could be called responsible parenting. If this was a schoolyard fight I would change my mind but this is just...
I never said they shouldn't be imprisoned. I merely said they should receive counseling. One does not necessarily exclude the other.
But apparently, the slightest mention of rehabilitation is enough to get this forum's resident reactionary to jump down my throat.

And you think prison will do any better? All sadistic little monsters like that will get out of jail time will be new techniques for causing pain and humiliation.

At least in prison they'll be separated from the rest of society, face it these five kids have the making of a serial (insert your serial here), and the fact that they started this young means that it'll only get worse as they get older. Do you honestly think this is something they did on the spur of the moment? God no, they been rolling this around in their sick little heads for awhile! If you've ever look at profiles of serial killers, rapist, terrorist etc. They've all done something like this in their childhood.

In death maybe. But you notice most people convicted of a sex crime end up doing it again?
When there are decent rehabilitation programs available, then and only then, do recidivism statistics become relevant.

At least in prison they'll be separated from the rest of society, face it these five kids have the making of a serial (insert your serial here), and the fact that they started this young means that it'll only get worse as they get older. Do you honestly think this is something they did on the spur of the moment? God no, they been rolling this around in their sick little heads for awhile! If you've ever look at profiles of serial killers, rapist, terrorist etc. They've all done something like this in their childhood.

The length of time they performed this attack for doesn't necessarily mean it was premeditated in the way you describe i.e. them thinking about the details and how far they would go.

When did you get your degree in criminal psychology and profiling by the way?

The length of time they performed this attack for doesn't necessarily mean it was premeditated in the way you describe i.e. them thinking about the details and how far they would go.

When did you get your degree in criminal psychology and profiling by the way?

You cannot deny that most serial killers, and serial rapist always had something wrong with them, I mean comon, if you google any serial's killer name that's now in prison, and read about their life, you'll see that they've done things like this in their childhood and as they grew older, it only got worse.

When did you get your degree in criminal psychology and profiling by the way?
Didn't you know? Those degrees are all a bunch of politically correct propaganda. They're just another attempt by the liberal establishment to destroy traditional values. All you need to understand criminals is a manly obsession with revenge. Wait, no, Justice. That's it, Justice.

At least in prison they'll be separated from the rest of society, face it these five kids have the making of a serial (insert your serial here), and the fact that they started this young means that it'll only get worse as they get older. Do you honestly think this is something they did on the spur of the moment? God no, they been rolling this around in their sick little heads for awhile! If you've ever look at profiles of serial killers, rapist, terrorist etc. They've all done something like this in their childhood.

News Flash: They don't stay in prison for the rest of their lives. Those kids will spend a few years with the rapists, killers, etc. and learn from them, then get released once their sentence is up. Then we'll have five sociopaths that learned from other sociopaths how to hurt other people out among society.

Now, since they are still young, they can be taught not to do those things and perhaps emerge from therapy as well-adjusted members of society. They are in a much better position to change their ways now than they will be after time in prison, in any case, so therapy is the route to take now, before these violent tendencies become too deeply ingrained.

You cannot deny that most serial killers, and serial rapist always had something wrong with them, I mean comon, if you google any serial's killer name that's now in prison, and read about their life, you'll see that they've done things like this in their childhood and as they grew older, it only got worse.

So what you're saying is that if all serial killers have an act like this in their past then all of those who perform such an act will become serial killers?

You used the phrase "sick little minds" when describing the boys. What do you do when you're sick? You go to the doctor. If your mind is sick why would you not go to a psychiatrist or counsellor, etc? Although i'm not saying a punishment is not necessary

There are many cases where those who have been abused as a child go on to become an abuser themselves. At what point are they to blame rather than the actions of their abuser? I find it an interesting question

You cannot deny that most serial killers, and serial rapist always had something wrong with them, I mean comon, if you google any serial's killer name that's now in prison, and read about their life, you'll see that they've done things like this in their childhood and as they grew older, it only got worse.

Right now, we have a chance to prevent these kids from becoming serial killers and what not. However, you want to lock them up for an indeterminate number of years in an environment that will only worsen their condition.

That does not mean we should not try.

I never said they shouldn't be imprisoned. I merely said they should receive counseling. One does not necessarily exclude the other.
But apparently, the slightest mention of rehabilitation is enough to get this forum's resident reactionary to jump down my throat.

Well that is what I believe they should receive, a brief stint in an institution where they will also receive therapy as well. Though I'm sure there will also be plenty of people will believe that as children they shouldn't receive any legal punishments at all. Nevermind the "boys will be boys" crowd but those who will claim "they didn't know what they were doing" or some such BS.

Right now, we have a chance to prevent these kids from becoming serial killers and what not. However, you want to lock them up for an indeterminate number of years in an environment that will only worsen their condition.

Their conditions are going to get worse no matter what, sometimes you can't 'fix' people.

sounds like something has gone horribly wrong at that school, though the word allegedly is being used like its going out of fashion so we could be looking at something completely different...

oh look the lynching folk are already present with the rusty logic about how you can remove yourself from the human race, oh how NSG is repetitive

Their conditions are going to get worse no matter what, sometimes you can't 'fix' people.

I'd ask for proof of the first half and ,as for the second half, why shouldn't we try?

Their conditions are going to get worse no matter what, sometimes you can't 'fix' people.

yeah you can make a man think hes a chicken yet heaven forbid you try to solve whats going on in a kids head!

excuse me your pitchfork is showing

Last time I remember being bullied was like in the Second grade... And that was nothing but insults...

I feel so bad for that poor kid.

I'd ask for proof of the first half and ,as for the second half, why shouldn't we try?

The only way you're ever going to fix this and by fix I mean neutralized is with alot of drugs, because sometimes people are born sociopath, maybe it's from a bad home life, maybe it's a pampered home life, maybe there's something wrong with their DNA, and maybe they one time set fire to a cat and it gave them a rush. I've studied (in my spare time) cases of serial killers and rapist, and I've also studied kids who are sociopaths, very few times do the kids actually 'turn' it around, very few times does that happen. What usually end up happening is that they kill someone, turn into drug addicts, turn into thugs, or in the extreme cases, they turn into serial killers/rapist/etc.

Their conditions are going to get worse no matter what, sometimes you can't 'fix' people.
You of course base this on your intimate knowledge of these boys psychological profile and psychology in general.
why shouldn't we try?
Because it would cost money. TAX PAYER MONEY! We can't go around throwing money at silly things like rehabilitation when there are still so many brown people left to destroy.

Money and Wilgrove's fear of spending it on helping people is pretty much as deep as his politics go.

The only way you're ever going to fix this and by fix I mean neutralized is with alot of drugs, because sometimes people are born sociopath, maybe it's from a bad home life, maybe it's a pampered home life, maybe there's something wrong with their DNA, and maybe they one time set fire to a cat and it gave them a rush. I've studied (in my spare time) cases of serial killers and rapist, and I've also studied kids who are sociopaths, very few times do the kids actually 'turn' it around, very few times does that happen. What usually end up happening is that they kill someone, turn into drug addicts, turn into thugs, or in the extreme cases, they turn into serial killers/rapist/etc.

Years ago it could have been said that there was no way you could fix someone with liver failure, etc but eventually we did find a way to fix that. Psychology and Psychiatry are two areas which, in medicine, haven't been studied to the same extent as other fields. What is there to stop such discoveries being found in the future which can help situations like these? or should we just give up because we can't do it right now.

You are still viewing the situation of a serial killer in reverse. You see a serial killer and see that he performed a violent act in his/her childhood and you are saying that all people who perform violent acts as a child must become serial killers. Thats the wrong way to be viewing this. They have the potential i'm sure but that doesn't mean the potential will ever be realised

As for your 'studying' of the subject, I don't find it to add anything to this discussion. Unless you show evidence from journals, etc I have no reason to believe you know this material better than any other lay person

Edit : Me go sleep now

Charge them as adults with assault, battery, and attempted murder. Seek maximum sentence.

Years ago it could have been said that there was no way you could fix someone with liver failure, etc but eventually we did find a way to fix that. Psychology and Psychiatry are two areas which, in medicine, haven't been studied to the same extent as other fields. What is there to stop such discoveries being found in the future which can help situations like these? or should we just give up because we can't do it right now.

You are still viewing the situation of a serial killer in reverse. You see a serial killer and see that he performed a violent act in his/her childhood and you are saying that all people who perform violent acts as a child must become serial killers. Thats the wrong way to be viewing this. They have the potential i'm sure but that doesn't mean the potential will ever be realised

As for your 'studying' of the subject, I don't find it to add anything to this discussion. Unless you show evidence from journals, etc I have no reason to believe you know this material better than any other lay person

Edit : Me go sleep now

Well the quick way to find out is for investigators to see if these kids have the other psycho signs, fire starting, bed wetting, cruelty to animals. Some of those bullies may be crazies in the making, or maybe they are just thugs who will grow up into violent thugs if they aren't brought up short. Hard.

Well the quick way to find out is for investigators to see if these kids have the other psycho signs, fire starting, bed wetting, cruelty to animals. Some of those bullies may be crazies in the making, or maybe they are just thugs who will grow up into violent thugs if they aren't brought up short. Hard.

Hence why I said potential and am arguing against Wilgroves assertion that a violent act like this means they are serial killers.

Why do the ideas of therapy and jail time have to be kept seperate? Has anyone actually said that is what they feel is appropriate?

Charge them as adults with assault, battery, and attempted murder. Seek maximum sentence.

:eek: you mean the kids that did this where not in fact 13! and not only that bombshell they attempted murder as well!

you clearly know much about this case and have looked rationally at this instead of foaming at the mouth onto your keyboard

Counselling for the bullies, but they should be forced to pay for it themselves, and if their assets are insufficient, they should be put into indentured servitude until they pay it off.

We can't go around throwing money at silly things like rehabilitation when there are still so many brown people left to destroy.

What do "brown people" have to do with anything?

Counselling for the bullies.

:eek: how dare you bring rational ideas into this thread!:p

Hence why I said potential and am arguing against Wilgroves assertion that a violent act like this means they are serial killers.

Why do the ideas of therapy and jail time have to be kept seperate? Has anyone actually said that is what they feel is appropriate?

I don't know. It isn't as if jails don't have shrinks.

What do "brown people" have to do with anything?

I believe that is sarcasm. So relax.

How do you do that for six hours? Thank god my bullies apparently had a short attention span.

Little fuckers. I don't know how you get through to monsters like that. Throw them in a cell full of Child Molesters then walk away for an hour. Let's see how they like it.

Throw them in a cell full of Child Molesters then walk away for an hour. Let's see how they like it.

I didn't see anything saying the bullies molested the victim :confused:

Assault is assault and by the time you're 12 years old, you ought to know what physical violence is and there is no excuse not to punish these little hellions.

Those of you who have never been bullied don't know what pain is until you've been someone's bitch. You do not know what pain is. Even if you're not physically attacked, the verbal abuse is hell of you. Years of verbal abuse can take it'll toll.

People will always be assholes but that doesn't mean they're bullies. Bullies are morons who have superiority issues and people like that are best dealt with a strong low to the head. They need someone bigger than them to show them that being at the short end of the stick is no joy ride.

Bullying can only be deterred once the punishment is harsh enough to drive home the message.

:eek: how dare you bring rational ideas into this thread!:p

I did edit my post, though.

Assault is assault and by the time you're 12 years old, you ought to know what physical violence is and there is no excuse not to punish these little hellions.


Bullying can only be deterred once the punishment is harsh enough to drive home the message.

And yet no-one here has said that the bullies shoudn't be punished. Some are just saying that in addition to that punishment there should be therapy

And yet no-one here has said that the bullies shoudn't be punished. Some are just saying that in addition to that punishment there should be therapy

Therapy? Belittle the blighters. The only thing bullies need is a whacking paddle to the ass 'till its as festering and bruised as their trashed ego and sense of self-esteem.

Therapy? The only thing bullies need is a whacking paddle to the ass 'till its as festering and bruised as their trashed ego and sense of self-esteem.

You want the retribution part of imprisonment but only want the rehabilitation part of it if its a byproduct. Others want those too but with the addition of therapy to the rehabilitation

Therapy? Belittle the blighters. The only thing bullies need is a whacking paddle to the ass 'till its as festering and bruised as their trashed ego and sense of self-esteem.

Someone's a little bitter.

The alleged ringleader's mother told reporters her son was a sweet child and that she had lost faith in the justice system.

Here's part of the problem. Parents who can't seem to imagine their kids doing wrong.

Solution: Remove the entire aspect of "tried as minors". Age is no excuse for criminal behavior. If possible, throw the harshest sentence possible for battery and attempted murder. Lock them up for life.

Therapy? Belittle the blighters. The only thing bullies need is a whacking paddle to the ass 'till its as festering and bruised as their trashed ego and sense of self-esteem.

Therapy is also needed as another way to get those kids to understand that what they did was unacceptable. If all they got was the kick to the ass then they may just harden and become more dangerous after they were released. Being that young they can be salvaged so they need both the ass kicking and the talking to.

I'd prefer they be turned into productive members of society, if at all possible.

Fertilizer is a product conducive to productive gains in agriculture. *nods*

I didn't see anything saying the bullies molested the victim :confused: Might as well, the victim is going to be as emotionally scarred as any rape victim.

But I'm not serious.

I just think that they should feel a similar sense of helplessness, terror, and humiliation as they made the victim feel.

Fertilizer is a product conducive to productive gains in agriculture. *nods*

Haha, right on.

You know, if these kids really are sociopaths then there is not much therapy to help them. The only thing that keeps sociopaths in line is A) fear of the law or B) the bars on their prison cell.

Therapy is also needed as another way to get those kids to understand that what they did was unacceptable. If all they got was the kick to the ass then they may just harden and become more dangerous after they were released. Being that young they can be salvaged so they need both the ass kicking and the talking to.

Fine... only after they've suffered sufficiently.

Their conditions are going to get worse no matter what, sometimes you can't 'fix' people.

Insertion of 50g of lead in the right place can fix any mental condition.

Because it would cost money. TAX PAYER MONEY! We can't go around throwing money at silly things like rehabilitation when there are still so many brown people left to destroy.


Tax payer money should go to helping victims, not wasted on therapy for criminals with minimal success rates. How many sociopaths become productive members of society after therapy hmmm? It's logic like that which allows serial rapists to walk after a few months only to do it again.

"Oh, he murdered 50 people. Ha ha. Lets pyschobabble him for 50 days and let him loose in society again."

An absolute waste of money.

Cheaper to execute them and have done with, the only caveat being airtight proof.

Solution: Remove the entire aspect of "tried as minors". Age is no excuse for criminal behavior. If possible, throw the harshest sentence possible for battery and attempted murder. Lock them up for life.

yeah that makes perfect legal sense :rolleyes:

Might as well, the victim is going to be as emotionally scarred as any rape victim. I just think that they should feel a similar sense of helplessness, terror, and humiliation as they made the victim feel.

hmm so in your mind pedophilia is now justified, weird does that mean two wrong make a right now?

Fine... only after they've suffered sufficiently.

aww bless I bet you suffered in school and now you find your little outlet in a collective lynching, tell me does corporal punishment have any rationality behind it in your blood thirsty mind?

There is DEFINITELY something wrong with those... people. They may easily have killed him. This is not something to do with childhood, it's the same thing wrong with rapists and murderers and tortures of any type. Whether they wear a uniform or not.

just kill them..i support gun control but here in america? if the police did nothing..you could always grab a semi automatic rifle and kill their families.:sniper:

Fine... only after they've suffered sufficiently.

Oh, I think they will have sufficient suffering in juvie. I understand some of those places are as nasty as adult jail.

Counselling for the bullies, but they should be forced to pay for it themselves, and if their assets are insufficient, they should be put into indentured servitude until they pay it off.

uh huh. Let's put it this way instead. They threatened murder. The victim was under the impression that he would be killed.

What would you say that in some reverse of fate, the victim killed the bullies? Would you allow him the self defense clause? Or maybe you'd say he was some blood thirsty thug?

Too many people empathize with criminals these days.

Cheaper to execute them and have done with, the only caveat being airtight proof.

face it you don't really give a rats arse about solving the problem or any facts do you, you just want to see someone suffer even if it means going back to the justice system of the 1800's*

*this is NSG so odds are you never touched on crime and punishment in history so lets see:

1800 = time of very high crime but also very harsh punishment (hanging for theft etc) = your shaky idea proven wrong because you haven't bothered to open a GCSE history book

Tax payer money should go to helping victims, not wasted on therapy for criminals with minimal success rates. How many sociopaths become productive members of society after therapy hmmm? If it's a true Sociopath... Impossible.

Therapy requires emotions, Sociopaths have no emotions...


Cheaper to execute them and have done with, the only caveat being airtight proof. But killing is wrong!!! Nevermind the fact that he\she will kill again!

A Sociopath is incurable. From what it sounds like, the ringleader might be one, if so the only thing you can do is lock him up.

yeah that makes perfect legal sense :rolleyes:


So? The entire reasoning for trying people as minors is because they don't seem to be able to realize the implications of what their doing. Seems to me that minors these days not only realize it, but relish it.

What purpose is there for trying them as minors anymore? It's an obsolete ruling.

Everyone here's touting therapy and counseling. However, both of those rely on two very important things:

1. That the subject is willing to listen.
2. That the subject is willing to reform.

If both of these conditions are not met, then the most that will happen is that the subject will "play along" with the therapy and then return to his previous lifestyle as soon as he is released.

Kids Can Be So Cruel
We can? Thanks, Rotovia's fiance!

Seems to me that minors these days not only realize it, but relish it.

doesn't seem so to me got a source for this or is your blood lust still showing?

If both of these conditions are not met, then the most that will happen is that the subject will "play along" with the therapy and then return to his previous lifestyle as soon as he is released.

so what your saying is the 2 big causes of people ending up in therapy and counseling aren't at all touched on in there training and there hasn't been countless ways shown to get over this big hurdle

I take it your not actually a therapist then

face it you don't really give a rats arse about solving the problem or any facts do you, you just want to see someone suffer even if it means going back to the justice system of the 1800's*

*this is NSG so odds are you never touched on crime and punishment in history so lets see:

1800 = time of very high crime but also very harsh punishment (hanging for theft etc) = your shaky idea proven wrong because you haven't bothered to open a GCSE history book

You also forget that in the 1800s, law enforcement sucked. Rampant theft happened cause for every one guy who got caught, dozens ran free.

And I don't live in America. But I have seen places where the police are efficient and harsh punishments for crime go hand in hand. Crime there is very low. Maybe you should take your eyes of American centric law enforcement and see where criminal justice and effective enforcement works hmm?

Who's eyes are closed here I wonder?

And how do you propose to solve the problem hmm? Sociopaths can't be cured. Not unless you've got fancy ideas involving lobotomy and zombification. They can't empathize, so making them realize that what they did was wrong is an exercise in futility.

Kill the motherfuckers. They'll only wind up as serial rapists or something in the future.

Sounds pretty terrible, and kids certainly are that cruel, many of them. I personally had basically no empathy for anyone until I became older. Not that I ever tortured anyone, but I wasn't really compassionate either. Violence and criminality are a young man's game in general, in any event - the odds of someone older than 35 perpetrating a violent offense are miniscule compared to those odds applied to those 18-24. The brain's chemistry must change with age.

If kids ever did that to my little brother there'd be no going to the police, just five little bullies with broken fingers and a new found fear of my brother. ;)

yeah that makes perfect legal sense :rolleyes: Are those the actions of a child? Does the torture, humliate and plan of the murder of a fellow peer sound like a 'child' crime?


hmm so in your mind pedophilia is now justified, weird does that mean two wrong make a right now? No but three rights make a left.(Sorry but when someone posts that I feel the urge to counter)
I wasn't serious, I just feel that they should suffer something akin to what they put the kid through...

A better idea would be sending them to a contested part of Iraq for a week. It would be just as effective.

doesn't seem so to me got a source for this or is your blood lust still showing?

Blood lust would be if I called for them to be executed immediately now wouldn't it? But never mind that straw man.

As for source, ever observed children? Nevermind, you don't want that do you?

So let me answer your question with a question.

How many minors have you seen, or heard of, committing serious crimes? Theft, drug trade, abuse and murder. How many of these crimes weren't emotional crimes, but premeditated?

Can you, in all honesty, say that premeditated crime is something people do without realizing the consequences of their actions just because they happen to be underage?

so what your saying is the 2 big causes of people ending up in therapy and counseling aren't at all touched on in there training and there hasn't been countless ways shown to get over this big hurdle

I take it your not actually a therapist then

No, I'm saying that if the bullies don't want to reform, they never will, unless you pump them full of drugs, in which case, they become mute, lifeless zombies.

You also forget that in the 1800s, law enforcement sucked. Rampant theft happened cause for every one guy who got caught, dozens ran free.

compared to previous centuries it was far worse, hence why it came to the point where people thought that maybe something wasn't working

And I don't live in America. But I have seen places where the police are efficient and harsh punishments for crime go hand in hand. Crime there is very low.

where is this magical land of which you speak?

Maybe you should take your eyes of American centric law enforcement and see where criminal justice and effective enforcement works hmm?

erm...well I don't look at American law enforcement where are you pulling that from? and places where affective law enforcement would be you' know places like Switzerland not bat-shit insane barbaric nations like Saudi Arabia

They can't empathize, so making them realize that what they did was wrong is an exercise in futility.

so your policy is don't bother to cure, don't bother to tend for the mentally ill?

Are those the actions of a child? Does the torture, humliate and plan of the murder of a fellow peer sound like a 'child' crime?

yep kids are little chimpanzees deep down, though I fail to see how this ages a person?

I wasn't serious, I just feel that they should suffer something akin to what they put the kid through...

oh how funny, calling for 13 year olds to be molested :rolleyes:

Blood lust would be if I called for them to be executed immediately now wouldn't it?

Bloodlust is a desire for violence and carnage, Wiki is your friend

As for source, ever observed children? Nevermind, you don't want that do you?

children shit themselves from policemen and Juvenile detention centers in my experience perhaps you can give a source for a change

How many of these crimes weren't emotional crimes, but premeditated?

you just don't get it do you: child mind =/= adult mind

would you like me to teach you biology as well or has your degree in criminology, psychology and child behavior come with a free sample of that?

Can you, in all honesty, say that premeditated crime is something people do without realizing the consequences of their actions just because they happen to be underage?

yep teenagers especially have difficulty with foresight

No, I'm saying that if the bullies don't want to reform, they never will

good thing therapist know how to do this, I'm sure your big book on mental therapy has an article on such steps as "first step to cure getting the patient to accept the problem" and so on

good thing therapist know how to do this, I'm sure your big book on mental therapy has an article on such steps as "first step to cure getting the patient to accept the problem" and so on

This will sound like double speak, but accepting a problem does not mean that the person is willing to fix it. For instance, it is, conceivably, possible for an extremely overweight person to go, "I'm fat, and I don't give a damn." What then?

At least in prison they'll be separated from the rest of society, face it these five kids have the making of a serial (insert your serial here)

Serial Corn Flakes :)

Yes, these kids should go to jail but they should also try to be rehabilitated so that they might be able become normal eventually, it doesn't matter what the likelyhood is, it should still be tried.

Their conditions are going to get worse no matter what, sometimes you can't 'fix' people.

Maybe they can't me fixed, we don't know. It could only help to try.


Those of you who have never been bullied don't know what pain is until you've been someone's bitch. You do not know what pain is. Even if you're not physically attacked, the verbal abuse is hell of you. Years of verbal abuse can take it'll toll.
Well, someone has a vendetta. I was bullied, I'm sure many people on NSG where. And you can definatly know what pain is without being bullied.
Therapy? Belittle the blighters. The only thing bullies need is a whacking paddle to the ass 'till its as festering and bruised as their trashed ego and sense of self-esteem.
They need punishment, but for the sake of potential future victims (not just the bullies) there needs to be an attempt made to help them. This isn't siding with the bullies this is just trying to prevent future victims once the bullies learn new torture method.
Tax payer money should go to helping victims, not wasted on therapy for criminals with minimal success rates. How many sociopaths become productive members of society after therapy hmmm? It's logic like that which allows serial rapists to walk after a few months only to do it again.
Reduce chance of crime = help victims

"Oh, he murdered 50 people. Ha ha. Lets pyschobabble him for 50 days and let him loose in society again."
A judgement call is nessecary, and no noe is suggesting that.

An absolute waste of money.

Cheaper to execute them and have done with, the only caveat being airtight proof.

Wrong "Although the costs of incarceration are expensive (about $25,000 per year per inmate), that amounts to $750,000 to $1,000,000 depending on whether a person lives 30 or 40 years after his or her sentencing. The death penalty, on the other hand, costs an additional $2 million per execution. "
- http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=557&scid=60#A.1F

Wanted to bring up a few things...

1. Some kids are inherently cruel, and it is up to the parents to raise them properly and teach them not to be cruel. So unless the bullies have serious mental problems, it is the parents fault.

2. It needs to be found out whether or not they have a mental problems before a course of action is decided.

3. If they have a mental problem, it is up to someone with actual expertise (a psychiatrist i think) to decide what should be done (medicines, counseling, etc).

4. They should be punished for sure however, perhaps community service.

5. If they do not have a mental disorder, i believe that they and their parents should be punished.

6. It is not just to throw them in jail for life, or have them (enter your unkind treatment here).

7. If there is any possibility of them being rehabilitated (I'm sure there is), then there should be an attempt to rehabilitate them, it may be costly, but everyone deserves a second chance, especially 8th graders (a.k.a. lunatics).

I suggest we do as the Mongols would have under Genghis Khan: send in the military to rape and pillage the entire town.

Mein Gott..... such things.... horrible.

You wouldn't believe some of the things I've read this morning... I'm reading articles on 'gay bashings' and people being 'bullied to death'. It's unbelievable. I don't even know how to respond.

-- Amor Pulchritudo

What you've just said got me thinking... is there something that can be doneto stop stuff like this? And what about prevention?

And it also reminds me of that stuff about mind control, which sounds paranoid but seriously, research that shit. Start with "mobile phone masts +"mind control""

And it also reminds me of that stuff about mind control, which sounds paranoid but seriously, research that shit. Start with "mobile phone masts +"mind control""

Sorry, but that has way too much potential for abuse. Any research into mind control should be nixed.

oh how funny, calling for 13 year olds to be molested :rolleyes:
Wasn't trying to be funny.
People said they wanted them to suffer, I just provided the very worst one possible.

Note how I just added another idea of putting the 8th graders to the middle of a freaking civil war. Is that not cruel as well?


you just don't get it do you: child mind =/= adult mind

These aren't 'children' they're pre-teens and Teens. Their minds are already entering adult mode.

I don't care how adult their minds were. When I was that age I knew full well that TORTURING SOMEONE FOR HOURS ON END was not only wrong, but illegal as well. Now if they don't, you have several possibilities as to why.

1) They're all sociopaths.
2) They're all mentally retarded.
3) They're all evil.

Fuck that. You don't get that many sociopaths just happening to all be friends at the same school. There was no mention of them being mentally deficient. As for evil... well, I try to avoid terms like that, but that seems to apply here.

They deserve whatever the maximum possible punishment under the law they can get.

These aren't 'children' they're pre-teens and Teens. Their minds are already entering adult mode.

But they aren't fully developed, they should no matter but people do change as the grow up, especially at that age. If they are helped (as well as punished) then they could grow up fine. If they are punished and brutilised at this period of their life with no help they will become much, much more dangerous in the future.

What is an appropriate punishment for this in everyones opinion?

Incarceration until 18 years of age, at which parole is an option, depending on behavior/exact role in said crime.

At least, that's what I'm seeing is the eventual outcome.

compared to previous centuries it was far worse, hence why it came to the point where people thought that maybe something wasn't working

Well duh, more people figured it was easier to steal than to work. I imagine the industrial revolution and more concentrated population densities also had something to do with the spike in crime.


where is this magical land of which you speak?


Try Singapore. Japan also has a low violent crimes ratio.


erm...well I don't look at American law enforcement where are you pulling that from?


Assumptive mistake.


and places where affective law enforcement would be you' know places like Switzerland not bat-shit insane barbaric nations like Saudi Arabia


Saudi Arabia's police are in effect, uniformed thugs.


so your policy is don't bother to cure, don't bother to tend for the mentally ill?


Criminal mentalities might be cured, but with low success rates, and after much investment in time and resources.

But why are we coddling criminals again?


yep kids are little chimpanzees deep down, though I fail to see how this ages a person?


That's the thing really. You've got an arbitrary age limit for what constitutes a minor. I don't. You stop being a minor when you start premeditating and carrying out violent crimes. You're old enough to formulate plans of murder, you're old enough to stand as an adult.

I bet if a 10 year old child genius concocted a nerve gas and deliberately poisoned some 500 people after distributing it into a skyscraper ventilation system you'd go "oh the poor kid, something must be wrong. Let's counsel him"


Bloodlust is a desire for violence and carnage, Wiki is your friend


Life imprisonment is violence and carnage now? Wow.


children shit themselves from policemen and Juvenile detention centers in my experience perhaps you can give a source for a change


For a change? Doesn't that imply you've given a source for your arguments?


you just don't get it do you: child mind =/= adult mind


Nuh uh. Mental development has zip to do with age. Or maybe you'd like to explain LG hmm?

I've seen adults act like bratty little kids and kids act a hell lot older than they are chronologically.

If they're capable of planning a crime, and carrying it out, they're old enough to be tried as adults.


would you like me to teach you biology as well or has your degree in criminology, psychology and child behavior come with a free sample of that?


Are you saying you've got all that?


yep teenagers especially have difficulty with foresight


Riiiiiiiight. "I didn't know he was going to die after I stabbed him" is a valid defense.


good thing therapist know how to do this, I'm sure your big book on mental therapy has an article on such steps as "first step to cure getting the patient to accept the problem" and so on

The only therapy I ever would even consider for sociopaths like these is electroshock therapy.

Either that or indentured servitude doing hard labor until all bills have been paid.

Not some pissant couch and counselor with a couple hours of worthless pschyobabble that appeals to the "oh kids could never be that mean that" crowd.

There is DEFINITELY something wrong with those... people. They may easily have killed him. This is not something to do with childhood, it's the same thing wrong with rapists and murderers and tortures of any type. Whether they wear a uniform or not.

There is nothing "wrong" with these kids, unfortunately. This is typical, unregulated primate (read chimpanzee) behavior. In other words, the kid's parents have failed to socialize them into human culture and they've reverted to chimpanzee status-establishing behavior. Both the kids and the parents need to be dealt with. I doubt the kids in question can ever be taught to behave appropriately, so I would say just lock them up for life, maybe on their own little island where they can turn on each other. The parents who failed to teach them properly need to be jailed.

Reduce chance of crime = help victims

The problem is that it's not a guaranteed 'reduce chance of crime'. All you're doing is "give this a try, maybe it'll work".

Immediate termination removes any chance of recommencing the crime.

Or if you're not into that, how about "repaying debt to society" hmm? Make the bastards labor in mines or work the fields until they've repaid every medical bill the victim has because of them.

Nothing teaches "repayment of debt" like forced hard labor for several years.


A judgement call is nessecary, and no noe is suggesting that.


CTP seems to be.


Wrong "Although the costs of incarceration are expensive (about $25,000 per year per inmate), that amounts to $750,000 to $1,000,000 depending on whether a person lives 30 or 40 years after his or her sentencing. The death penalty, on the other hand, costs an additional $2 million per execution. "
- http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=557&scid=60#A.1F

Yeah that never made any sense to me. Why the heck do they delay these things for so long and give automatic appeals even when the evidence is beyond reproach?

"We've got video evidence, 40 witnesses and a signed confession, but lets give him an automatic appeal anyway."

Rather than waste money on them, it'd be better spent improving investigative methods to prove beyond reproach whether the person was guilty or not.

There is nothing "wrong" with these kids, unfortunately.

Erm, yes. This is not normal behavior. No psychologist in the world will tell you that torture is part of normal childhood behavior.

This is typical, unregulated primate (read chimpanzee) behavior. In other words, the kid's parents have failed to socialize them into human culture and they've reverted to chimpanzee status-establishing behavior.

Nonsense. Chimpanzees don't torture each other like this. Establishment of social hiearchy can be violent, but it's not like that, you can't explain this away by blaming animals. The only ones to blame here are sentient, thinking, beings. They thought of ways, clever ways, to engage in pure sadism. This was no primal passion type deal.

Both the kids and the parents need to be dealt with. I doubt the kids in question can ever be taught to behave appropriately, so I would say just lock them up for life, maybe on their own little island where they can turn on each other. The parents who failed to teach them properly need to be jailed.

I'm hesitant to immediately blame the parents. They may have done no wrongs. Certainly they weren't exactly supervizing or aware of this situation. They are not as culpable as the perps.

Criminal mentalities might be cured, but with low success rates, and after much investment in time and resources.

But why are we coddling criminals again?
Because when they get out (because yes, you do grow up from that age. Your brain does undergo significant changes) we want them to function.


I bet if a 10 year old child genius concocted a nerve gas and deliberately poisoned some 500 people after distributing it into a skyscraper ventilation system you'd go "oh the poor kid, something must be wrong. Let's counsel him"
At 10 years of age? They probably would have problems. They would need punishment (depending on their mental state) and help. It isn't either or.

Life imprisonment is violence and carnage now? Wow.
For that age group? Yes. Do you really want to pay for that anyway?

Nuh uh. Mental development has zip to do with age. Or maybe you'd like to explain LG hmm?
1. As you grow your brain developes. Obviously, everyone does so at a different stage but there is an obvious correlation.
2. LG has mentally developed better than most of us. He has the most amazing sense of humor and ever.


Riiiiiiiight. "I didn't know he was going to die after I stabbed him" is a valid defense.
They didn't kill him. Keep it in context.

The only therapy I ever would even consider for sociopaths like these is electroshock therapy.
:rolleyes: Remember the bloodlust thing?
Either that or indentured servitude doing hard labor until all bills have been paid.
To a certain extent okay, but they must be helped at the sametime and punish not destroy.

Not some pissant couch and counselor with a couple hours of worthless pschyobabble that appeals to the "oh kids could never be that mean that" crowd.
No one is saying that they shouldn't be punished at all. We are arguing a more humane punishment and therapy to go with it. One more time: it isn't either or.

yeah. Children are cruel. During my childhood years I had to endure 7 years of unrelenting bullying/racism which caused major psychological/emotional damage and for the next 2 years after the bullying I went a little crazy...and i needed help, and got help. Now I'm alright, ;)

The problem is that it's not a guaranteed 'reduce chance of crime'. All you're doing is "give this a try, maybe it'll work".

Immediate termination removes any chance of recommencing the crime.

Or if you're not into that, how about "repaying debt to society" hmm? Make the bastards labor in mines or work the fields until they've repaid every medical bill the victim has because of them.

Nothing teaches "repayment of debt" like forced hard labor for several years.

I'm not going to get into a death penalty debate right now as that isn't what the thread's about but.
If they where force to "repay their debt to society" then why not just let them get the therapy and try to help them when they get out? Why are you so against giving them a second chance?

CTP
I think Call To Power is arguing for a lesser sentence with rehabilitation, not no punishment at all.


Yeah that never made any sense to me. Why the heck do they delay these things for so long and give automatic appeals even when the evidence is beyond reproach?

"We've got video evidence, 40 witnesses and a signed confession, but lets give him an automatic appeal anyway."

Rather than waste money on them, it'd be better spent improving investigative methods to prove beyond reproach whether the person was guilty or not.


Because they aren't always that sure:
"There have now been over 120 people released from death row after they were exonerated. Thus, for every 8 executions carried out, there has been one person formerly death on row who is now deemed innocent."
- http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=557&scid=60#A.4T
(same link as last time)
Imagine the amount of wrongful executions there have been/could have been. It is there because they don't want to kill innocent people.

No one is beyond redemption.

Yea, but when you pretty much did everything except kill him to your fellow man, and that was because he escaped from your little death trap, ehhh, my magical 8 ball says that redemption is "not likely".

That does not mean we should not try.

The little bastards are too ****** **. No point in wasting effort trying to “redeem” them, in my opinion, and neither do I think they deserve “redemption” after what they have done.

5. If they do not have a mental disorder, i believe that they and their parents should be punished.

Blame the actual criminal? That's crazy! Seriously, I think knowing you raised that is enough of a punishment. People should be held accountable for their own actions not others. Besides, sometimes kids with good parents will get influenced and the parents can't get back into control. These kids are their own people and if there is blame, it is theirs. Not the parents.

Another spin on it...

This case illustrates the fact that fighting back is always preferable to acquiescing.
If that kid had said "Fuck you, go ahead and beat me. Watch what happens," there'd have been a fight. A big, noisy, things breaking in the bathroom fight. On school property.

The teachers, principal and deans would have been in there in a second, broken it up and that would have been the end of it. No Lord of the Flies scenario, no court case, kid would have come out with scars but only on his body. Not on his mind and spirit.

Because when they get out (because yes, you do grow up from that age. Your brain does undergo significant changes) we want them to function.

And they'll become functional people by coddling them?


At 10 years of age? They probably would have problems. They would need punishment (depending on their mental state) and help. It isn't either or.


Uh huh. So any crime is excusable, even mass murder. So long as you're a minor.


For that age group? Yes. Do you really want to pay for that anyway?


Eh, a one shot appeal before execution would be a lot cheaper.

Either way, if you're going to go down that "functional members of society" thing, we might as well stick with indentured servitude. Teaches them the value of hard work and the cost of their crime.

Even better if you have them working in some Chinese coal mine.


1. As you grow your brain developes. Obviously, everyone does so at a different stage but there is an obvious correlation.


This only proves my point. They've developed enough to grow some seriously sadistic tendencies. That's more than enough to try them as adults.


2. LG has mentally developed better than most of us. He has the most amazing sense of humor and ever.


His humor is developed, but that's because deep down, he's still a kid with 30+ years experience.


They didn't kill him. Keep it in context.


Ok fine. "I didn't know he'd bleed all over the place if I hit him with a plank full of nails" is a defense now?


:rolleyes: Remember the bloodlust thing?


Electroshock therapy is supposedly used against serial rapists, with proven effects. I see no reason why it shouldn't work against sociopaths like these. You want to talk to me about therapy and making them productive members of society? Talk results.


To a certain extent okay, but they must be helped at the sametime and punish not destroy.


Destroy would have been organ harvesting.

Years of hard labor with the realization that this is a direct consequence of their actions is all that is needed. If they cannot learn from this, the second conviction would be death.


No one is saying that they shouldn't be punished at all. We are arguing a more humane punishment and therapy to go with it. One more time: it isn't either or.

Punishment and humane are mutually exclusive. Punishment is to make them realize it is wrong. Making it humane dilutes its purpose.

I'm not going to get into a death penalty debate right now as that isn't what the thread's about but.
If they where force to "repay their debt to society" then why not just let them get the therapy and try to help them when they get out? Why are you so against giving them a second chance?

Sure there's therapy. It's called forced labor conditions for years on end. Should drive a very clear message into some skulls.

The kind of therapy you guys are talking about, counsellings, in my eyes, it's worthless. Counseling is for providing direction when you're uncertain about things, not rehabilitating criminals.

Real punishment for real criminals. Not this watered down family friendly 'justice'.


I think Call To Power is arguing for a lesser sentence with rehabilitation, not no punishment at all.


His version of rehabilitation is too weak to be called that.


Because they aren't always that sure:
"There have now been over 120 people released from death row after they were exonerated. Thus, for every 8 executions carried out, there has been one person formerly death on row who is now deemed innocent."
- http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=557&scid=60#A.4T
(same link as last time)
Imagine the amount of wrongful executions there have been/could have been. It is there because they don't want to kill innocent people.

Didn't you read the other part of what I said? Pour the money from all those extra automatic appeals into better investigative processes. Establish proof of guilt at the onset of the trial. Once that's settled, either he walks or gets a bullet in the brain. Everyone saves in the long run.

Punishment and humane are mutually exclusive. Punishment is to make them realize it is wrong. Making it humane dilutes its purpose.

They can realise it was wrong and still be punished but having them sit down and give them a chance to be functional when they escape isn't going to down play having their freedom taken away from them and whatever else they'll have to go through in juvie.

Such disgusting behavior is not really surprising. Humans are much better at cruelty then kindness after all. I doubt these boys will see much punishment though, I'm sure people will whine that they are "only" kids and so should be let off with little consequences.

for this very reason, I'm a strong advocate for extending the death penalty to minors. :mad:

What is an appropriate punishment for this in everyones opinion?

aushwitz:upyours:

They can realise it was wrong and still be punished but having them sit down and give them a chance to be functional when they escape isn't going to down play having their freedom taken away from them and whatever else they'll have to go through in juvie.

I forgot one more aspect of punishment, so I'll add it here.

Punishment is supposed to deter repeat crimes.

How successfully does juvie do that? Not very, if the numbers are anything to look at.

No, they need a harsher punishment, one that makes them really sweat at the idea of going back there.

18 hour working days, harsh labor conditions, subsistence rations.

Yeah, it's a Gulag. So what? They deliver results, and a lot better than juvie. And on the upside, they'll actually be productive while serving their sentence. Rather than sitting there wasting taxpayer money.

"Ho hum, boys will be boys. This wouldn't have happened if the kid was manly enough. Probably raised only by his mother. The traditional family is falling apart. Damn liberal media."

Yeah, I've actually heard arguments pretty much along those lines about a similar instance of what was described as "hazing."

In any case, all the kids involved in this need counseling. The tortured kid for PTSD and the bullies for their sociopathic tendencies.

counseling???????? what kind of moron are you :confused: all that does is allow society to take the blame for more rotten kids, instead of letting them answer for their own crimes against humanity. :upyours:

I'd prefer they be turned into productive members of society, if at all possible.

it's not.

No one is beyond redemption.

I suppose you must have had some awfully bad therapists in your day. I'm sorry.

so let Manson out, or ressurect Gacy, or maybe even richard speck. :headbang:

Another spin on it...

This case illustrates the fact that fighting back is always preferable to acquiescing.
If that kid had said "Fuck you, go ahead and beat me. Watch what happens," there'd have been a fight. A big, noisy, things breaking in the bathroom fight. On school property.

The teachers, principal and deans would have been in there in a second, broken it up and that would have been the end of it. No Lord of the Flies scenario, no court case, kid would have come out with scars but only on his body. Not on his mind and spirit.

What if the bullies had had a gun? If he fought, he'd be dead by now. Remember, they DID have an axe. He'd probably be dead by now anyway.

News Flash: They don't stay in prison for the rest of their lives. Those kids will spend a few years with the rapists, killers, etc. and learn from them, then get released once their sentence is up. Then we'll have five sociopaths that learned from other sociopaths how to hurt other people out among society.

Now, since they are still young, they can be taught not to do those things and perhaps emerge from therapy as well-adjusted members of society. They are in a much better position to change their ways now than they will be after time in prison, in any case, so therapy is the route to take now, before these violent tendencies become too deeply ingrained.

well according to child psycologists children develop their personalities by age 3 so they've had plenty of time to become the rotten punks that they are. :eek:

So what you're saying is that if all serial killers have an act like this in their past then all of those who perform such an act will become serial killers?

You used the phrase "sick little minds" when describing the boys. What do you do when you're sick? You go to the doctor. If your mind is sick why would you not go to a psychiatrist or counsellor, etc? Although i'm not saying a punishment is not necessary

There are many cases where those who have been abused as a child go on to become an abuser themselves. At what point are they to blame rather than the actions of their abuser? I find it an interesting question

considering this animal behavior treat them like animals, of like mind and put them down, or should we rehab pit bulls too :confused:

There is nothing "wrong" with these kids, unfortunately. This is typical, unregulated primate (read chimpanzee) behavior. In other words, the kid's parents have failed to socialize them into human culture and they've reverted to chimpanzee status-establishing behavior. Both the kids and the parents need to be dealt with. I doubt the kids in question can ever be taught to behave appropriately, so I would say just lock them up for life, maybe on their own little island where they can turn on each other. The parents who failed to teach them properly need to be jailed.

Don't chimpanzees behave better than that?

Don't chimpanzees behave better than that?

They'll occasionally gang rape

They'll occasionally gang rape
They occassionally organize raids on the territory of the neighboring chimpanzee group to abduct children, tear them apart and eat them.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/deepjungle/episode3_watts.html
Those bullies were at least partially socialized or they would end up killing the victim, not torturing him for six hors.

uh huh. Let's put it this way instead. They threatened murder. The victim was under the impression that he would be killed.

What would you say that in some reverse of fate, the victim killed the bullies? Would you allow him the self defense clause? Or maybe you'd say he was some blood thirsty thug?

Too many people empathize with criminals these days.

(In response to bolded)

Absolutely.

I retract my previous post. I believe the appropriate punishment for the bullies is a good flogging with a sjambok (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sjambok).

In my opinion, the little fuckers need to be thrown into jail.

(In response to bolded)

Absolutely.

Now lets take it a step further. Lets say somebody else see's this going on, and is also under the impression that said kid was about to be killed. He see's one of them lift the nailed plank, for what looks like an attempt to kill. He acts first, kills the plank wielder.

Is this justifiable homicide? Manslaughter in defense of another.

considering this animal behavior treat them like animals, of like mind and put them down, or should we rehab pit bulls too :confused:

Yes we should rehab pit bulls.
It's called dog training, heard of it?

Now lets take it a step further. Lets say somebody else see's this going on, and is also under the impression that said kid was about to be killed. He see's one of them lift the nailed plank, for what looks like an attempt to kill. He acts first, kills the plank wielder.

Is this justifiable homicide? Manslaughter in defense of another.

Yeah it is.

I've undergone hazing. I've been bullied and I have been the victim and perpetrator of numerous pranks of extraordinary cruelty. But oddly enough, I never felt the fear and terror that poor boy felt. I may not have enjoyed what was done to me, but I could look back on it and laugh. I still can.

I suppose the danger is how fine the line is between 'boys being boys' and sociopaths assaulting a helpless classmate. But the line was crossed. Nobody is going to look back on that when they're older and laugh. Not the victim, certainly. And not the bullies. At least if they did, I'd have to question their humanity.

A world without mischief seems like a bleak world to me. But a world where things like that can happen doesn't seem any better. Can there ever be a happy medium, or am I the odd one for knowing instinctively where that happy medium is?

Kids being cruel, remember the James Bulger case in the UK. James was 2 years old, he was taken by 2 boys (Jon Venables and Robert Thompson aged 10 who brutally tortured him for hours, such as pouring paint in his eyes, throwing lumps of concrete at his head and putting batteries into his rectum are just a small part of what they did. Eventually they managed to kill him.

I'm just too enraged to say more sorry.

Don't chimpanzees behave better than that? I think it's the bonobos not the chimps: Chimpanzees can be pretty damn "cruel".


I think the children should be expelled & have charges pressed against them. It also makes me question their parents. Bullying has always been an issue in schools, but where do we draw the line? Are these kids simply being kids, or is there something awfully wrong with them? If they're 13 now, will they grow out of it, or will their behaviour get worse? Next time, will they kill someone?

While their actions are utterly reprehsensible I don't think they deserve excessive punishment because their actions are probably only *slightly* over their usual pattern of bullying other children which *was* and *is* allowed - if not encouraged - by their peers, parents, teachers and others in position to intervene.

When you allow school bullying to happen in the first place you offer a chance for these completely overblown incidents to happen because the children don't, well, know any better: Nobody has drawn the line for them and they are in no position to draw the line themselves.

For starters, I wouldn't want anything permanent to remain on their record. As a punishment, well, 6 months in some semi-closed institution would probably be the maximum with therapy and possible other means used to treat their society induced morals and behaviour patterns. Of course, with a healthy - in range of 5k to 10k € - recompensation to the victim. I also wouldn't expel them - per se - even if it would be good for everyone to have them switch school.

All in all, we as a society should be & act better than the wild teens in this case - who for all purposes are a byproduct of the very same society acting carelessly.

btw. Am I the only one who'd like to see philosophy and ethics as a compulsory subject in schools? Teaching kids to think beyond themselves would do good in preventing these kinds of cases....probably :D

Is this justifiable homicide? Manslaughter in defense of another.

Yes.

I think it's the bonobos not the chimps

Bonobos are a type of chimp.

For starters, I wouldn't want anything permanent to remain on their record. As a punishment, well, 6 months in some semi-closed institution would probably be the maximum with therapy and possible other means used to treat their society induced morals and behaviour patterns. Of course, with a healthy - in range of 5k to 10k € - recompensation to the victim. I also wouldn't expel them - per se - even if it would be good for everyone to have them switch school.Which amounts to insulting the victim. "Hey, they may have ruined your life for a few years*, but we think that them getting therapy and free lunch compensates for it!"

* It's worth noting that these things tend to happen over such timeframes. The case in question is merely the culmination of something that went on for a much longer time

While the victim suffers a lifelong trauma, has most likely suffered in terms of grades, too, and and and.

Ideally, the fucks should be treated the way they treated their victim, for the same period of time. Yes, it's petty revenge - and they deserve it. Their victim deserves it.

But, sadly, this isn't possible.

But lets face it - their behaviour was ridiculous, and not 'It's just a game'. Rehabilitation might be a good idea - hell, I'm in favour of it -, but rehabilitation cannot work if we teach them that their actions have no consequences - and that's exactly what they'd learn if they're suddenly considered the 'Poor Boys' who 'Need Our Help' and get 'Therapy'. They fucked up the life of their victim - and they are old enough to realise what they've done. They're 12- 14, not eight. Unless there's serious negative sanctions for them, they wont change (The victim however, will. He'll learn that society doesn't give a fuck and that justice doesn't exist, unless he achives it for himself). Antiauthoritarian education doesn't work, we know that since the late seventies/ early eighties.

btw. Am I the only one who'd like to see philosophy and ethics as a compulsory subject in schools? Teaching kids to think beyond themselves would do good in preventing these kinds of cases....probably :DYes, you are. This kind of people would most likely sleep through the class and not give a flying fuck about what the teacher says or the books contain.

This is Rotovia's fiance. I have 2 accounts (knowyourright and amor pulchritudo) but they're both inactive because I never have any time to go on here....

Anyway, we stumbled across this article.

"Boy 'tortured for six hours by bullies'
Thursday Jul 5 05:00 AEST

By ninemsn staff

A 13-year-old Perth boy was brutally tortured for six hours by a pack of bullies who shoved him into a grave and began to bury him, a court has been told.

Five boys, ranging in age from 12 to 14, are accused of dragging the boy from school to a bush camp and attacking him in several cruel and bizarre ways.

Police allege the boy was first forced into a toilet at the government high school in the Perth hills Wednesday morning, where the others told him to follow their orders or be bashed.



He was then made to run into the bushland behind the school where he was forced into a makeshift hut, The Australian reports.

The boy was first given a "wedgie" and hung from a tree by the back of his underpants, Prosecutor John Dart told Perth Children's Court.

Over the next six hours the boy was allegedly beaten and prodded with a plank of wood riddled with nails.

The court heard that sandwiches were smeared across the victim's face, while one of the boys opened the victim's lunchbox and urinated in it.

The group then allegedly threatened him with an axe and made him crawl on his hands and knees and act like dog.

The abuse culminated with the boy allegedly being pushed into a makeshift grave dug by the boys, who began shovelling dirt on top of him.

He was told that he would be forced to sleep in the hut before they returned at 3am the next day to kill him, the court heard.

The five boys are each charged with deprivation of liberty, threatening to kill, and assault occasioning bodily harm.

Police said the boy was constantly crying throughout the attack, and was so scared he wet his pants twice.

The boy suffered bruises and lacerations to his legs, back and buttocks in the ordeal.

He eventually got away and ran home, where he told his mother who alerted the school and police.

All five of the alleged attackers have been suspended temporarily while the school decides on a punishment.

The alleged attackers and the victim are all Year 8 students"


I think the children should be expelled & have charges pressed against them. It also makes me question their parents. Bullying has always been an issue in schools, but where do we draw the line? Are these kids simply being kids, or is there something awfully wrong with them? If they're 13 now, will they grow out of it, or will their behaviour get worse? Next time, will they kill someone?

-- Amor Pulchritudo on Rotovia's account.
see if the were an american kid he'd have a handgun and he could have shot them all
:mp5:
http://www.neospeed.org/images/mytaurus38.jpg

The only way you're ever going to fix this and by fix I mean neutralized is with alot of drugs, because sometimes people are born sociopath, maybe it's from a bad home life, maybe it's a pampered home life, maybe there's something wrong with their DNA, and maybe they one time set fire to a cat and it gave them a rush. I've studied (in my spare time) cases of serial killers and rapist, and I've also studied kids who are sociopaths, very few times do the kids actually 'turn' it around, very few times does that happen. What usually end up happening is that they kill someone, turn into drug addicts, turn into thugs, or in the extreme cases, they turn into serial killers/rapist/etc.

People arent born as sociopaths. Most pyschologist see sociopathy as developing as a result of the person not forming any strong attachments in childhood.
These early attachments are the basis for further relationships with other people. No attachments result in an ability to feel guilt or empahaise with other people.
It used to be thought, like you think now, that this is an irreversible process. However a study by Hodge and Tizzard showed that the effects of pribation can be reversed and that attachements can be formed in later life. Therefore counciling and rehabilitation could have an effect.

see if the were an american kid he'd have a handgun and he could have shot them all
:mp5:
http://www.neospeed.org/images/mytaurus38.jpg

No, if it was an American kid he would bring a handgun to school 5 years later and kill everyone.

Can there ever be a happy medium, or am I the odd one for knowing instinctively where that happy medium is?

If you would take my suggestion seriously, run for public office, and reform the education branch, maybe we'll see the effects in a generation.

No, if it was an American kid he would bring a handgun to school 5 years later and kill everyone.

And people would go "poor lad, he must have been disturbed, oh well, footballs on"

I imagine that these kind of school systems are a breeding ground for much of the violence we see later on.

Police: Girls, 10, 12, Kidnap Baby For Ransom (http://www.thehawaiichannel.com/news/13631701/detail.html)

sad...

Bonobos are a type of chimp.

Well, it's the second species of genus Pan (chimpanzee). However what people generally mean with chimpanzee is the common chimpanzee instead of bonobo or the genus (compare the usage to genus Homo which literally means human).

Behavioristically they are a world apart, also bonobos are our closest relatives.

Which amounts to insulting the victim. "Hey, they may have ruined your life for a few years*, but we think that them getting therapy and free lunch compensates for it!"

You fail to realize that the perpetrators are not fully responsible for the event: They are still children and have probably grown accustomed to being allowed to bully others - They have no moral imperative that says bullying is bad.

* It's worth noting that these things tend to happen over such timeframes. The case in question is merely the culmination of something that went on for a much longer timeIndeed, which is why the sentence should be relative to the normally accepted behaviour.

They could've been stopped by the teachers, parents or authorities at a point before their acceptable bullying escalated into such abysmal proportions.

While the victim suffers a lifelong trauma, has most likely suffered in terms of grades, too, and and and.

This is unfortunate and extremely sad. However severely punishing the underaged perpetrators for society's & their parents' incompetence to acknowledge and stop their disruptive behaviour is in my opinion extremely short sighted and mis-targeted.

But, sadly, this isn't possible.Eye for an eye...yes...Especially when the criminals aren't capable of fully realizing what their actions have caused. Luckily people aren't interested in fixing the problem as much as destroying more lives in the process of vendetta.

But lets face it - their behaviour was ridiculous, and not 'It's just a game'.

It might have been for them - Why it was 'just a game' for them is the million dollar question.

cannot work if we teach them that their actions have no consequences

No consequences? FFS, 6 months out of a life of a 13-14 year old is a subjective eternity and I'm leaning on it being too harsh a punishment for something that's equally the blame of their surroundings, primarily the parents & the school.

Yes, you are. This kind of people would most likely sleep through the class and not give a flying fuck about what the teacher says or the books contain.

The thing is that empathy & taking others into consideration is a *learned* trait. If you are not capable of putting yourself into a position of another human being normal schoolyard bullying and these things will happen. My proposal has jackshit to do with books but something starting as communal play (kindergarten) and evolving into teaching, discussing and debating ideals, ethics and morals of a functioning society - You don't make them read books (much) but participate & interact in the class with other students and the teacher.

Well, it's the second species of genus Pan (chimpanzee). However what people generally mean with chimpanzee is the common chimpanzee instead of bonobo or the genus (compare the usage to genus Homo which literally means human).

Behavioristically they are a world apart, also bonobos are our closest relatives.

Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying that. :)

I would just like to point out that the only reason that the victim wasn't killed was that he escaped his would be killers, if he didn't escaped, he probably would be dead.

I would just like to point out that the only reason that the victim wasn't killed was that he escaped his would be killers, if he didn't escaped, he probably would be dead.

Speculation

Speculation

Eh not really

The group then allegedly threatened him with an axe and made him crawl on his hands and knees and act like dog.

The abuse culminated with the boy allegedly being pushed into a makeshift grave dug by the boys, who began shovelling dirt on top of him.

He was told that he would be forced to sleep in the hut before they returned at 3am the next day to kill him, the court heard.

The five boys are each charged with deprivation of liberty, threatening to kill, and assault occasioning bodily harm.

Police said the boy was constantly crying throughout the attack, and was so scared he wet his pants twice.

The boy suffered bruises and lacerations to his legs, back and buttocks in the ordeal.

He eventually got away and ran home, where he told his mother who alerted the school and police.

Obviously speculation, do you know any 12-14 year olds that would be up at 3AM?

Obviously speculation, do you know any 12-14 year olds that would be up at 3AM?

by choice? all of em.

heck, one of my fav shows was on at 3AM. so I would wake up, sneak to the TV. watch it, then go back to bed.

Eh not really

Hmmm don't know how I missed that. Fair enough. It still doesn't change my opinion that therapy and jail time are appropriate but I apologise for the mistake

by choice? all of em.

heck, one of my fav shows was on at 3AM. so I would wake up, sneak to the TV. watch it, then go back to bed.
How the fuck do you wake up at 3AM, the only reason I wake up at 3 AM is because my cat is active from 2-4 and is usually trying to break shit.

How the fuck do you wake up at 3AM, the only reason I wake up at 3 AM is because my cat is active from 2-4 and is usually trying to break shit.

it was a good show back then.

and I had a good alarm. :D

Of course, now I always wake up at 3:00am. I tend to go back to sleep, but my eyes open a little before 3 am.

I've undergone hazing. I've been bullied and I have been the victim and perpetrator of numerous pranks of extraordinary cruelty. But oddly enough, I never felt the fear and terror that poor boy felt. I may not have enjoyed what was done to me, but I could look back on it and laugh. I still can.

I went to a high school where they posted a "taping list" by the second floor water fountain. This list was the names of individuals who could expect to be jumped after school and duct-taped to some uncomfortable and embarrassing location. A friend of mine was taped to the underside of a bench in the girls' locker room.

This practice had been going on for some time. It just so happened that my freshman class was the last to undergo this hazing, as a law was passed that officially classified hazing as a giant no-no. Suddenly there were actual consequences, and the school actually enforced them. By the time I was a senior, taping was just a fading memory.


I suppose the danger is how fine the line is between 'boys being boys' and sociopaths assaulting a helpless classmate. But the line was crossed. Nobody is going to look back on that when they're older and laugh. Not the victim, certainly. And not the bullies. At least if they did, I'd have to question their humanity.

I've always viewed the "boys will be boys" attitude as a pathetic, cowardly excuse. It's a way to let certain individuals off the hook for behavior that is pretty much agreed to be unacceptable. The simple fact is that most boys DON'T act that way, and they're even less likely to act that way if you quit giving them bullshit cop-out excuses and fond pats on the head when they act like assholes.

Kids can grasp "no hitting" as a rule before they reach kindergarten. It is bunk to claim that children should be permitted to assault each other because they're just being kids. Yes, kids make mistakes sometimes. They're still MISTAKES. It's still bad behavior. And they're never going to learn to stop unless you actually teach them that it's bad behavior.


A world without mischief seems like a bleak world to me.

This isn't about 'mischief'. This is about maliciously tormenting a target. If you find it bleak to imagine a world where nobody is victimized, then that's pretty fucked up.

It's one thing to prank a willing friend, in the spirit of fun. It's quite another to assault, harass, torment, or otherwise terrorize another human being.


But a world where things like that can happen doesn't seem any better. Can there ever be a happy medium, or am I the odd one for knowing instinctively where that happy medium is?
On the contrary; the "happy medium" is glaringly obvious to any non-sociopath.

It's fun and fine when all parties involved are having a good time. It's wrong and bullshit when one party gets to be made miserable for the pleasure of others.

It's like sexplay. Some couples enjoy BDSM, right? But we can easily say that violent rape is bad while violent consensual BDSM is okay. Because we understand that the willingness of the participants is important.

*snip*

*claps*

As always, Bottle hits the nail right on the head. :)

Any form of bullying is wrong, but this is sadistic. Fucking hell, bunch of little Nazis. I was going to call them psychopaths, but a pack mentality is all that's needed for something like that. If it was just one kid doing that stuff, he'd be a psychopath.

Throw those fuckers in Juvie until they're 21, and have a copy of this incident permanently attached to their records so any future employer or school gets to see it.

While they're in there, they need serious, directed psychological counseling. There's bullying, and then there's budding sociopathy.

Throw those fuckers in Juvie until they're 21, and have a copy of this incident permanently attached to their records so any future employer or school gets to see it.

While they're in there, they need serious, directed psychological counseling. There's bullying, and then there's budding sociopathy.

Totally agree with you.

*claps*

As always, Bottle hits the nail right on the head. :)
*takes a bow*

Honestly, though, I should emphasize that I'm extremely fond of funny pranks, myself. I simply think there are only two acceptable kinds of prank:

1) Pranking of willing friends. Prank wars with clever and dedicated parties are phenomenal.

Example: On my freshman floor we had an on-going prank war that involved covering a person's entire desk area with something funny. It started with one kid completely blanketing his roommate's desk and chair with post-it notes. It eventually got to the point where some of us turned our RA's desk and chair into a giant rubber-band ball (we actually used bungees for this).


2) Vigilante justice. If somebody wrongs me or my crew in some significant way, they should expect prankish revenge to descend upon them.

Example: Another buddy of mine had a roommate from hell. Among other things, this jackass would steal anything that he could lift. He would take pens, books, CDs, small electronics...anything my buddy left out was liable to go missing. So one day when Klepto Roomie was at class we took everything on his desk and super-glued it to the ceiling in a precise mirror image of how we found it. We made sure to individually glue each page of his term paper very firmly.

1) Pranking of willing friends. Prank wars with clever and dedicated parties are phenomenal.

Example: On my freshman floor we had an on-going prank war that involved covering a person's entire desk area with something funny. It started with one kid completely blanketing his roommate's desk and chair with post-it notes. It eventually got to the point where some of us turned our RA's desk and chair into a giant rubber-band ball (we actually used bungees for this).



Last year I went away for the weekend and returned to my flat to find everything in my room had been covered in clingfilm including my bed, chairs, desk, etc along with a web of clingfilm from the roof to the floor that I had to fight through.

Needless to say revenge was had involving copious amounts of lube and shaving foam

I think we should send those pieces of shits to gitmo for 6 weeks.

Last year I went away for the weekend and returned to my flat to find everything in my room had been covered in clingfilm including my bed, chairs, desk, etc along with a web of clingfilm from the roof to the floor that I had to fight through.

Needless to say revenge was had involving copious amounts of lube and shaving foam
See, now this kind of thing can be so much fun. I enjoyed coming back to my room to find some new prank waiting for me, so I could narrow my eyes, wring my hands, and mutter "Diabolical..." while immediately plotting revenge.

You fail to realize that the perpetrators are not fully responsible for the event: They are still children and have probably grown accustomed to being allowed to bully others - They have no moral imperative that says bullying is bad.Puh-lease. Aged twelve to fourteen. They're not children, they are capable of telling between good and bad. They just consider 'Bad' to be way more fun.

They could've been stopped by the teachers, parents or authorities at a point before their acceptable bullying escalated into such abysmal proportions.Absolutely. And?

This is unfortunate and extremely sad. However severely punishing the underaged perpetrators for society's & their parents' incompetence to acknowledge and stop their disruptive behaviour is in my opinion extremely short sighted and mis-targeted.And you'd do... What? Give them a medal?

Eye for an eye...yes...Especially when the criminals aren't capable of fully realizing what their actions have caused. Luckily people aren't interested in fixing the problem as much as destroying more lives in the process of vendetta.Again, you're severely underestimating teenagers. They had to realise what their actions caused, and they did it, anyway.

It might have been for them - Why it was 'just a game' for them is the million dollar question.The same can be said for criminals of all ages. DENIED.

No consequences? FFS, 6 months out of a life of a 13-14 year old is a subjective eternity and I'm leaning on it being too harsh a punishment for something that's equally the blame of their surroundings, primarily the parents & the school.No, it's not. Half a year is half a year - half a schoolyear. It's nothing.

Now, just to point out how the victim in the case must feel (And what potential consequences would be) - I got bullied myself, though of course not even remotely on the same scale as this guy.

I still find considerable joy in imagining the pleasant and slow murder of the people I'd issues with, back in the day. I've no doubt that I'd perpetrate the same, given the chance. And had I actually had access to a (fire)weapon when these things happened, there would've been a school shooting.

This, again, is what considerably less traumatic events caused in me. And you're worried about the bul- well, actually, lets not call them that. Lets call them what they are. Criminals. You're worried about them? Frankly, they're getting off incredibly easy, no matter what happens. And, somewhat worse - as Littleton & co prove -, they became a risk for everyone else at that school, in case that the victim completely breaks and has access to the means needed for revenge.

What is an appropriate punishment for this in everyones opinion?

Mutilation. Possibly their noses.

Mutilation. Possibly their noses.

Noses? I was thinking of something lower....<.< >.>

If you would take my suggestion seriously, run for public office, and reform the education branch, maybe we'll see the effects in a generation.

Ah, yes! A whole generation of young minds to corrup... ah..er... I mean mold. Yeah, mold. To mold into the future goofba... uh... leaders. Yeah leaders of America. *nods and whistles America The Beautiful* :)

Noses? I was thinking of something lower....<.< >.>

Well, yeah, but most people don't walk round with that on show;)

Well, yeah, but most people don't walk round with that on show;)

Yea, well, do we really need them to breed?

Yea, well, do we really need them to breed?

We could just do both.

Personnaly i think that bthis is wrong and totally disguesting. Firtsly they were gange beating him and I hate people who are to afraid to fight one on one. 2. They were all bigger then him, also makes me sick. Pick on someone their own size. 3. Threatining to kill- Bad, bad idea. It is a possibility that the kids might of killed him if he had not escaped. So they should be charged with some sort of threat charge.4. defenitly jail time. I ounce beat up 2 kidsand injured another 12 at my school. They started it, trying to gang beat me, fourtunatly they were shit heads and didnt notice that i outweighed the biggest one of them by 60 pounds. But i was the one that got suspended because they simply said i started it and it was 14 vs 1 so they were all believed.

Yea, well, do we really need them to breed?

It's genetic?

It's genetic?

Not really, but there's a reason why people who were abused themselves become abusers.....

We could just do both.

Eh works for me.

Throw those fuckers in Juvie until they're 21, and have a copy of this incident permanently attached to their records so any future employer or school gets to see it.

While they're in there, they need serious, directed psychological counseling. There's bullying, and then there's budding sociopathy.

Well just do to them what they did to the kids. golden rule "do unto others as you would have duno unto you." Jump them, beat them, wedgie them hit them with sticks that have nails in it and then bury them alive.

Usually, I find that kids who are complete jackasses like the ones mentioned in the OP are that way because their parents are complete jackasses.

There's nothing quite as sweet as having their parents busted in front of the kids (and an interesting object lesson).

Had this happen in our neighborhood - the parents were selling drugs.

The look on their jackass kids faces (their kids were constantly bullying others at the local school) when the SWAT team hogtied them (along with their parents) on the front lawn at 2 AM (after the flashbang, I'm not sure how much they saw or heard), was priceless.

We heard later that the parents were jailed, and the children permanently removed from their custody.

I went to a high school where they posted a "taping list" by the second floor water fountain. This list was the names of individuals who could expect to be jumped after school and duct-taped to some uncomfortable and embarrassing location. A friend of mine was taped to the underside of a bench in the girls' locker room.

This practice had been going on for some time. It just so happened that my freshman class was the last to undergo this hazing, as a law was passed that officially classified hazing as a giant no-no. Suddenly there were actual consequences, and the school actually enforced them. By the time I was a senior, taping was just a fading memory.


I've always viewed the "boys will be boys" attitude as a pathetic, cowardly excuse. It's a way to let certain individuals off the hook for behavior that is pretty much agreed to be unacceptable. The simple fact is that most boys DON'T act that way, and they're even less likely to act that way if you quit giving them bullshit cop-out excuses and fond pats on the head when they act like assholes.

Kids can grasp "no hitting" as a rule before they reach kindergarten. It is bunk to claim that children should be permitted to assault each other because they're just being kids. Yes, kids make mistakes sometimes. They're still MISTAKES. It's still bad behavior. And they're never going to learn to stop unless you actually teach them that it's bad behavior.


This isn't about 'mischief'. This is about maliciously tormenting a target. If you find it bleak to imagine a world where nobody is victimized, then that's pretty fucked up.

It's one thing to prank a willing friend, in the spirit of fun. It's quite another to assault, harass, torment, or otherwise terrorize another human being.


On the contrary; the "happy medium" is glaringly obvious to any non-sociopath.

It's fun and fine when all parties involved are having a good time. It's wrong and bullshit when one party gets to be made miserable for the pleasure of others.

It's like sexplay. Some couples enjoy BDSM, right? But we can easily say that violent rape is bad while violent consensual BDSM is okay. Because we understand that the willingness of the participants is important.

I 98% agree with you. It all boils down to motive, doesn't it? One can do amazingly horrific things to one's friends and laugh it off with little more consequence than having to look over your shoulder for impending vengeance. But when those same kids single out the weak, small and/or young kids because they're weak, small and/or young, the motivation is obviously changed from violent fun to just plain violence.

What I wrestle with is what to do about it? Tecahers, coaches and even parent seem to have a hard time with that fine line. Why is that? LIke you and I said, it really isn't that hard to tell the diffeence. Yet increasingly broad zero tolerance policies against hazing and the criminalization of the same hasn't made anything clearer. Just the opposite, it has gone from one extreme to the other.

As far as the other 2%,

I've always viewed the "boys will be boys" attitude as a pathetic, cowardly excuse. It's a way to let certain individuals off the hook for behavior that is pretty much agreed to be unacceptable.

All actions should have consequences, and punishment. But I think criminalization of unacceptable behavior isn't always necessary.

Well just do to them what they did to the kids. golden rule "do unto others as you would have duno unto you." Jump them, beat them, wedgie them hit them with sticks that have nails in it and then bury them alive.

heck yeah!

Well just do to them what they did to the kids. golden rule "do unto others as you would have duno unto you." Jump them, beat them, wedgie them hit them with sticks that have nails in it and then bury them alive.

Do you carry that into other areas of crime or just this? i.e. should rapists be raped, murderers be killed, etc?

Ah, yes! A whole generation of young minds to corrup... ah..er... I mean mold. Yeah, mold. To mold into the future goofba... uh... leaders. Yeah leaders of America. *nods and whistles America The Beautiful* :)

Keep thinking that LG. I've got soap and laundry detergent payloads waiting for a misstep. Keep their antics above abusive shit and we'll all be happy eh?

All actions should have consequences, and punishment. But I think criminalization of unacceptable behavior isn't always necessary.

Bah, you're only saying that cause nuclear wedgies aren't a legal punishment.

What I find disturbing is the whole "gang mentality" thing. Usually in these cases there are one or two "leaders" who get the others to go along with them by either intimidation or peer pressure.

We really need to teach our children to stand up for their beliefs even when the majority is against them. How many times have we heard stories like this, of kids doing horrible things because all of their friends were doing it?

It's even worse when they become adults. Historically, the biggest crimes were commited by "average" people following the orders of some lunatic.

Do you carry that into other areas of crime or just this? i.e. should rapists be raped, murderers be killed, etc?

yes, what they did to their victims should be done to them! That would be a real deterant to any wrong doing these days

yes, what they did to their victims should be done to them! That would be a real deterant to any wrong doing these days

I'm not interested in a deterrent.

If there is some provable way to make sure that someone won't be a recidivist (i.e., repeat offender), then take that route by all means.

The most proven method so far for violent crime is "aging out the offender" - i.e., keeping them in prison until they are 60 years old and too feeble to be competently violent.

If you reduce recidivism, you sharply reduce crime.

yes, what they did to their victims should be done to them! That would be a real deterant to any wrong doing these days

Ok just wanted to get a view of your position on this. Nice to see stooping to a criminals level is what you're after :rolleyes:

I'm not interested in a deterrent.

If there is some provable way to make sure that someone won't be a recidivist (i.e., repeat offender), then take that route by all means.

The most proven method so far for violent crime is "aging out the offender" - i.e., keeping them in prison until they are 60 years old and too feeble to be competently violent.

If you reduce recidivism, you sharply reduce crime.

While it is also important to maintain fairness in sentencing

Ok just wanted to get a view of your position on this. Nice to see stooping to a criminals level is what you're after :rolleyes:

hey, if it will stop them, thats what we got to do

Bah, you're only saying that cause nuclear wedgies aren't a legal punishment.

Despite a vigorous lobbying campaign. :(

I like how RO euphemizes torture into being "jackasses."

I guess terrorism is just "shenanigans."

Keep thinking that LG. I've got soap and laundry detergent payloads waiting for a misstep. Keep their antics above abusive shit and we'll all be happy eh?

A simple rule of thumb is: If nobody else is laughing, you took it too far. *nod*

While it is also important to maintain fairness in sentencing

They should be glad that I'm not recommending hanging.

They should be glad that I'm not recommending hanging.

They should be glad no-one on NSG has any control over such things :p

They should be glad no-one on NSG has any control over such things :p

Why do Texas and Virginia have an express lane for certain crimes that result in the death penalty?

Well, I live in Virginia, and a lot of people here believe in that sort of thing.

i remember being beat up by bullies but mabey not that bad......sure i had bruises but good god those other kids are freekin nazi"s

Why do Texas and Virginia have an express lane for certain crimes that result in the death penalty?

Well, I live in Virginia, and a lot of people here believe in that sort of thing.
I would answer it, but you wouldn't understand it and would go off on some diatribe about how I'm wrong.

This is Rotovia's fiance. I have 2 accounts (knowyourright and amor pulchritudo) but they're both inactive because I never have any time to go on here....

Anyway, we stumbled across this article.

"Boy 'tortured for six hours by bullies'
Thursday Jul 5 05:00 AEST

By ninemsn staff

A 13-year-old Perth boy was brutally tortured for six hours by a pack of bullies who shoved him into a grave and began to bury him, a court has been told.

Five boys, ranging in age from 12 to 14, are accused of dragging the boy from school to a bush camp and attacking him in several cruel and bizarre ways.

Police allege the boy was first forced into a toilet at the government high school in the Perth hills Wednesday morning, where the others told him to follow their orders or be bashed.



He was then made to run into the bushland behind the school where he was forced into a makeshift hut, The Australian reports.

The boy was first given a "wedgie" and hung from a tree by the back of his underpants, Prosecutor John Dart told Perth Children's Court.

Over the next six hours the boy was allegedly beaten and prodded with a plank of wood riddled with nails.

The court heard that sandwiches were smeared across the victim's face, while one of the boys opened the victim's lunchbox and urinated in it.

The group then allegedly threatened him with an axe and made him crawl on his hands and knees and act like dog.

The abuse culminated with the boy allegedly being pushed into a makeshift grave dug by the boys, who began shovelling dirt on top of him.

He was told that he would be forced to sleep in the hut before they returned at 3am the next day to kill him, the court heard.

The five boys are each charged with deprivation of liberty, threatening to kill, and assault occasioning bodily harm.

Police said the boy was constantly crying throughout the attack, and was so scared he wet his pants twice.

The boy suffered bruises and lacerations to his legs, back and buttocks in the ordeal.

He eventually got away and ran home, where he told his mother who alerted the school and police.

All five of the alleged attackers have been suspended temporarily while the school decides on a punishment.

The alleged attackers and the victim are all Year 8 students"


I think the children should be expelled & have charges pressed against them. It also makes me question their parents. Bullying has always been an issue in schools, but where do we draw the line? Are these kids simply being kids, or is there something awfully wrong with them? If they're 13 now, will they grow out of it, or will their behaviour get worse? Next time, will they kill someone?

-- Amor Pulchritudo on Rotovia's account.

As a certified 13-year-old kid, I'm pretty sure they won't grow out of it.

As a certified 13-year-old kid, I'm pretty sure they won't grow out of it.

Why would a 13 year old know that more than a 30 year old? Its more of a hindsight statement

Despite a vigorous lobbying campaign. :(TBH LG... it was tried here... but the prisioners loved it too much.

Why would a 13 year old know that more than a 30 year old? Its more of a hindsight statement

Well, I'm qualified as to what 13 year olds do, and that's not it.

As a certified 13-year-old kid, I'm pretty sure they won't grow out of it.

... that's you isn't... the poor boy in the article? ;) :D

I would answer it, but you wouldn't understand it and would go off on some diatribe about how I'm wrong.

Name one recipient of the death penalty who was a repeat offender...

Name one recipient of the death penalty who was a repeat offender...
Has nothing to do with anything.

Has nothing to do with anything.

Yes, it does. It's why I like the death penalty. You just can't stand hearing about something that works that well.

Yes, it does. It's why I like the death penalty. You just can't stand hearing about something that works that well.
I support the death penalty, I think it should be applied more. Just not for the same reasons as you do.

I support the death penalty, I think it should be applied more. Just not for the same reasons as you do.

You can't support the death penalty because you are teh ebul liberal. ;)

You can't support the death penalty because you are teh ebul liberal. ;)
Oh yeah I forgot.

Amnesty for teh emigrants!
Free heelthcarez 4 allz!
We dont n33d no priz0nz

Having suffered bullies myself I think the solution is fucking bonehead obvious:

The children accused of carrying out this disgusting behaviour should be trailed with their teachers acting as a Jury and the one of the school goveners as the judge.

If they are believed to be guilty they should endure precisely the same treatement as they have been accussed of, only this will be done publicly in front of school assemblys.

In fact that solves the problem of innane school gatherings in front of some dipshit headteacher.
Assemblys will no longer be innane they will be an education of social justice and damn fucking funny too because theres no greater comedy than watching someone being senselessly tormented for your entertainment right?

IN fact I think all criminals should be publicly humiliated child or not.

... that's you isn't... the poor boy in the article? ;) :D

Nope. I'm not from Australia.

As another one of the many folks who experienced severe bullying as a child (and lets face it, most people probably have), I would like to bring up the fact that bullying is an escalating activity. These monsters would never have pulled something like this if they hadn't gotten away with lesser acts of brutality before, or known those who did. I can say from personal experience that wherever I've seen/experienced extreme bullying, the teachers (or their equivalents) are very much to blame. I remember going to the lazy-ass dumbsh** teachers begging them to help me, explaining the situation as best I could, and having them make excuses as to why they shouldn't get involved.

Bullying will happen somewhere no matter what, but cases like this can be prevented if teachers are made to fear for their jobs if such an escalation happens. The Australian equivalent of the school board (sorry, don't know how the system works over there) should bring in third party investigators to track the patterns of bullying to see if some teachers should be dismissed themselves, or possibly have some form of disciplinary action taken against them. I'm not looking for a scapegoat here, and the fact that the perpetrators were 12-14 years old means that they may just be budding criminals, but its something that needs looking into whether the teachers/headmaster gets punished or not. The very fact that teachers know that they don't have immunity will act as a spur to prevent this in the future.

The union will cry foul, but my mother has been a union teacher for many years, and I know from experience and other research that the school unions are usually more interested in their members' job security than in the quality of the education system or the safety of the students, at least when there is a conflict between the two.

Oh, btw, I'm not suggesting the little thugs should be let off the hook. They should be sent to juvenile detention until they're 18, and probably jail as well until they're 21. Certainly a few years probation on top would be ideal. I know how mature 12-14 yr olds really are (even if many people my age and older seem to forget).

Spare the rod... you know the rest.

Oh please, we don't need to 'coddle' the bullies, we need to put them in jail where they'll receive the same treatment that they gave to the poor kid and then they'll see what it's like.

Cause that will help society when they get out :rolleyes:

Cause that will help society when they get out :rolleyes:

I got news for you, unless the parents, their 'friends' (who has the biggest impact on their lives) and their teacher start changing the way they are raising these kids, teaching these kids, and disciplining these kids, they are never going to change, they will only get worse and sooner or later they'll land a life sentance.

I got news for you, unless the parents, their 'friends' (who has the biggest impact on their lives) and their teacher start changing the way they are raising these kids, teaching these kids, and disciplining these kids, they are never going to change, they will only get worse and sooner or later they'll land a life sentance.
Editing: soundes too harsh did not mean it like that

I agree that the parents have obviously failed their kids but specifically sending someone to prison to get the shit beat out of them too is a bit over the top, and if happened would not help them or society. Yes maybe incarseration is needed or will be needed but the violence is not nessisary and wont help anything

I got news for you, unless the parents, their 'friends' (who has the biggest impact on their lives) and their teacher start changing the way they are raising these kids, teaching these kids, and disciplining these kids, they are never going to change, they will only get worse and sooner or later they'll land a life sentance.

I thought you said you can't 'fix' some people?

I thought you said you can't 'fix' some people?

Apparently getting the shit beat out of you while locked up helps where therapy wont because it is "coddling" :rolleyes: And all these doctors sooo mistaken

all the bullies identified need to have their part in this disgiusting act laid bare in all its detail.
Absolutely no softening of the description of thier crimes which range from physical assault all the way down to NOT stopping the whole thin gand every kick,spit and punch in between.

It needs to be made very clear,as accurately as possible,what each individual did and make sure each of them understand what they were responsible for. No glossing over anything the victim suffered.
No letting any of the bullies feel any relief from the disgrace of their actions til they are convicted,then punished.

Thier punishment should include some type of reparations to the victim as well as society.

And when a parent tells the court or reporters how good their boy is, let them review the account of their little bastard's behavior in this incident.

And then let them prove how wonderful their child is through actions-not words.
Make the little fuckers clean the roadside or paint the school with close,harsh and critical supervision.
Make them long for the day they can go back to unsupervised play and appreciate the privilege they could lose.

I thought you said you can't 'fix' some people?

Never said that it was just because they were messed up in the head.

Never said that it was just because they were messed up in the head.

Off with their heads.

Apparently getting the shit beat out of you while locked up helps where therapy wont because it is "coddling" :rolleyes: And all these doctors sooo mistaken

What can I say, I am the kind of guy that doesn't try to soften things, I really am brutally honest and I get straight to the point, and I've never met one therapist that was like that. No all the therapist that I've met were like "Well, Josh, now you know that was wrong, but it isn't totally your fault, society has let you down...blah blah blah."

Therapy should be more like this "Ok Josh, you and four of your numbskull little friend beaten up this little kid to an inch of his life. Guess what champ, you got no one to blame but yourself, you are a despicable excuse for a human being I mean my God, do you have an inferiority complex or something? Well here's what we're going to do. While you're in prison, and you will be there for awhile, trust me, I will straighten you out, one way or another."

You know what...screw therapy and screw prison, just send them to Boot Camp that is run by R Lee Emery.

What can I say, I am the kind of guy that doesn't try to soften things, I really am brutally honest and I get straight to the point, and I've never met one therapist that was like that. No all the therapist that I've met were like "Well, Josh, now you know that was wrong, but it isn't totally your fault, society has let you down...blah blah blah."

Therapy should be more like this "Ok Josh, you and four of your numbskull little friend beaten up this little kid to an inch of his life. Guess what champ, you got no one to blame but yourself, you are a despicable excuse for a human being I mean my God, do you have an inferiority complex or something? Well here's what we're going to do. While you're in prison, and you will be there for awhile, trust me, I will straighten you out, one way or another."

You know what...screw therapy and screw prison, just send them to Boot Camp that is run by R Lee Emery.It may make you satisfied to see that but unless there was real data to support those despicable methods society as a whole should not be partaking in them

It may make you satisfied to see that but unless there was real data to support those despicable methods society as a whole should not be partaking in them

and how is telling teenagers that what they did was wrong, and that they were despicable for doing what they did and that they have no one to blame but themselves because they are now 13 years old and it's time to take some responsibility wrong?

What if the bullies had had a gun? If he fought, he'd be dead by now. Remember, they DID have an axe. He'd probably be dead by now anyway.

From what the article inferred, the axe was in the bush camp. Kind of hard to walk around a school with an axe or shovel without attracting attention, unless you're wearing a trenchcoat. The article didn't specify if that was the case but since the school authorities didn't hear about the incident until the next day I'm assuming it wasn't.

My point is that it's better to die fighting, that way you have a shot in the dark of taking your killer with you. Remember "Mutually-assured destruction?" It kept the Cold War cold. Besides, bullies are weak. They had to gang up five-to-one in order to have their way. I'll bet you a hundred Australian dollars that not a single one of them could have gone toe-to-toe with their target if they hadn't been in a group.

Onto another point touched upon: Chimpanzees can and do behave like that. They regularly practice infanticide on their own species (as do lions, dolphins, bears and wild horses) and a form of cannibalism (they hunt and eat other primates regularly, particularly the brains). Baboons have also been observed viciously attacking members of their own troupes for arbitrary reasons. (Google "chimpanzee + cannibalism + infanticide")

On the "make them productive members of society" comment: Sure, let's give 'em CIA jobs under the Bush Administration. Send 'em to Abu Ghraib, then brick up and plaster over all the doors and windows!

1- The school (and teachers) should be criminally liable for whatever happens inside it.

2- The bullies should be criminally liable, within the law, for what they did.

3- The school and the bullies' parents should be made to pay for counseling and a big amount of money in damages - money which should go to the victim.

4- The bullies' parents should be forced to pay for counseling for the bullies as well. Should that not work, that's what an asylum is for.

And I write this as someone that has been a victim of physical bullying, granted, not nearly as bad as this kid (I think the time a desk was tossed on me was one of the most serious). With teachers, essentially, supporting the bullies ("if all of them have a problem with you, perhaps you are to blame, not them.") and with the school-indicated psychologist supporting the school's stance (maybe due to a comfy preservation of the status quo). The teachers let this happen. The parents let this happen. The school let this happen. The bullies did it. All of these parties are responsible.

No all the therapist that I've met were like "Well, Josh, now you know that was wrong, but it isn't totally your fault, society has let you down...blah blah blah."


You must be meeting some quack therapists then.
Therapists are there to listen to you and try and help you find ways to deal with situations. NOT to cast blame on anything, or judge. Or be brutal and harsh.Like I said..if some therapist is trying to put blame on something else other than trying to help you deal..they are not good therapists.

You must be meeting some quack therapists then.
Therapists are there to listen to you and try and help you find ways to deal with situations. NOT to cast blame on anything, or judge. Or be brutal and harsh.Like I said..if some therapist is trying to put blame on something else other than trying to help you deal..they are not good therapists.

Yea those bobble head therapist who goes "mmhmm" "tell me more" and "how does that make you feel?" aren't very good either, espically when it comes to this, one way or another, those sociopaths need to know what they did was wrong, it's their fault, and that they should take responsibility for it.

Yea those bobble head therapist who goes "mmhmm" "tell me more" and "how does that make you feel?" aren't very good either, espically when it comes to this, one way or another, those sociopaths need to know what they did was wrong, it's their fault, and that they should take responsibility for it.

Have you ever even BEEN to a therapist? Or are you just going by what you see on TV??

Therapy is about dealing with issues..finding ways to cope.. Therapy is NOT punishment. There are other things for that.

Hey, just sending them for therapy may work for them, but other bullies are still going to continue...

Perhaps a good harsh punishment then therapy will deter further incidents... Give them 1 stroke of the cane (yes, the one used on adult criminals, it leaves scars for life) and tell them they're lucky they're not above 18 or it'ld be more. A deterrent is only effective if you actually carry out the threat.

Needless to say, the tortured kid'll need counselling if he suffers from the incident. But counselling'll just remind him of his experience; if he displays no signs of being affected by the incident, we should give him a choice, no forcing people... and compensation from those bullies can be a good idea too, perhaps a public apology to the poor kid and some recompense... Encouraging his friends to be closer to him would also be nice.

Have you ever even BEEN to a therapist? Or are you just going by what you see on TV?? I have, and for this sort... Therapy won't work, if they are indeed Sociopaths. IT WILL NEVER EVER EVER WORK.


Therapy is about dealing with issues..
They're freakin evil, I think that sums it up. I can see no excuse for their actions.

finding ways to cope..
How do you 'cope' with being a heartless monster?

Therapy is NOT punishment. There are other things for that.
Therapy is also not a magic button that will cure everything.

Some time ago, I recall reading this article (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061015/trapped_burningshed_061015/20061015?hub=TopStories) (although not from CTV). It was a similar situation (a disabled boy was shoved into a burning shed by young children), and fortunately he survived as well.
I can't remember there was a follow-up article or not, so I don't know if the children responsible were caught.

Got some more good news. I Googled on it (American press hasn't gotten hold of it yet) and turned up a news story. It said that four of the bullies might be back in that school after the hols and parents were scared for their children. Scared enough that they weren't re-enrolling them in that school.

The ringleader's in custody, though.

One of the parents said that this was beyond teasing, beyond bullying, and into the realm of criminality.

We can yelp about helping them but it won't change the fact that these kids TORTURED another human being for probably very tenuous and arbitrary reasons.

Take a look at why bullies pick on other kids:

They might be taller than everyone else.
They might be sensitive and respond to their bullshit.
They might be fat.
They might have a different eye colour.
They might talk different.
They might have a creative spark.
They might have just have had the temerity to be convenient when the bully felt like giving someone, anyone, a hard time.

How do any of these qualities adversely impact the lives of those who do the picking on? What was it about that kid that made that gang choose him? I'll bet it was something so mind-bogglingly inconsequential as to defy logic. Google on "bullies" and "bully-cide" if you want to see how far this can go.

When I was in high school I got harassed by this one guy who stood about 5'4" and had a Napoleonic complex for himself and three others. His toadie was our town's big-shot lawyer's gold-crapping "Little Dawwing" who stood about two inches shorter. He didn't let an hour go by without chewing me out or picking a fight. I just kept saying, "Mike, get another strategy! The insults aren't working, you're still short!"

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuId=77&ContentID=33481

This is Rotovia's fiance. I have 2 accounts (knowyourright and amor pulchritudo) but they're both inactive because I never have any time to go on here....

Anyway, we stumbled across this article.

"Boy 'tortured for six hours by bullies'
Thursday Jul 5 05:00 AEST

*etc

I laughed. Am I going to hell, or have I spent too much time on /b/?

I laughed. Am I going to hell, or have I spent too much time on /b/?

I think those two options go hand in hand

I think those two options go hand in hand

I guess I get to meet Hitler then. Off to prepare!

I have, and for this sort... Therapy won't work, if they are indeed Sociopaths. IT WILL NEVER EVER EVER WORK.


They're freakin evil, I think that sums it up. I can see no excuse for their actions.


How do you 'cope' with being a heartless monster?


Therapy is also not a magic button that will cure everything.

QFT

Therapy is also not a magic button that will cure everything.

Soft therapy that is. Electroshock therapy does wonders I'm told. Although even there, there's limits.

Too bad some people have this idea that psychobabble can cure anything. They can't imagine that since we're effectively talking about reprogramming minds here, effective and harsh measures must be brought in, not coddling. You'll never make a statue out of a rock with a feather.

Soft therapy that is. Electroshock therapy does wonders I'm told. Although even there, there's limits.

Too bad some people have this idea that psychobabble can cure anything. They can't imagine that since we're effectively talking about reprogramming minds here, effective and harsh measures must be brought in, not coddling. You'll never make a statue out of a rock with a feather.

No-one is saying these boys shouldn't be punished. They're just saying that it is more effective to use the carrot and the stick, the soft and hard methods, rather than just the stick.

You'll never make a statue out of a rock with a feather.
You can, if you're willing to wait long enough and if you have enough feathers... =P

But I agree, give them harsh punishment. And not just to change their behaviour too, as a deterrent to others, if you show no mercy in your deterrence, it will be an effective one.

There has to be a line in the sand somewhere... Torturing people is way beyond that. So they stepped over, what do you do? Hit them of course...

Edit: Show them that they cannot prevent the punishment if they cross the line... Convince people that their actions have consequences, and that the state has standards of behaviour that must not be crossed...

Edit2: Give them therapy afterwards too... Just in case it works...

I laughed. Am I going to hell, or have I spent too much time on /b/?

Why did you laugh? Seriously man (or woman), that's fucked up

No-one is saying these boys shouldn't be punished. They're just saying that it is more effective to use the carrot and the stick, the soft and hard methods, rather than just the stick.

Look, you're trying to reprogram sociopaths here into productive people. Reprogramming isn't something you can do with logic traps and clever words. It needs a lot more than that.

Unless you've got some kind of implant that can alter their behaviors entirely, you will need hard therapy. And in most cases, that means electroshock or other equally, what some would term, inhumane means of reprogramming.

That's the choices you've got bub. There is no 'everyone goes home happy guilt free' option.

Look, you're trying to reprogram sociopaths here into productive people. Reprogramming isn't something you can do with logic traps and clever words. It needs a lot more than that.

Unless you've got some kind of implant that can alter their behaviors entirely, you will need hard therapy. And in most cases, that means electroshock or other equally, what some would term, inhumane means of reprogramming.

That's the choices you've got bub. There is no 'everyone goes home happy guilt free' option.
Exactly. You can't teach a deaf dog new tricks with your voice.

Look, you're trying to reprogram sociopaths here into productive people.

Have they been diagnosed as such by an experienced clinician?

Have they been diagnosed as such by an experienced clinician?

You do realize that if they are NOT sociopaths they have no excuse, right? Insanity works as a pseudo-defense, sanity doesn't.

You do realize that if they are NOT sociopaths they have no excuse, right? Insanity works as a pseudo-defense, sanity doesn't.

Have I said that they have an excuse? I definitely think they should be punished

Have I said that they have an excuse? I definitely think they should be punished

The point being that, should they be psychopaths, they should go to an institution (and stay there for life, as one doesn't "get better" from a psychopathy). Should they merely be sent to prison for a while. A LONG while. And this case should be rubbed in the face of the next MORON that utters the sentence "boys will be boys" meaning it.

The point being that, should they be psychopaths, they should go to an institution (and stay there for life, as one doesn't "get better" from a psychopathy). Should they merely be sent to prison for a while. A LONG while. And this case should be rubbed in the face of the next MORON that utters the sentence "boys will be boys" meaning it.

They should be punished with the intent of setting an example rather than to see justice served?

And yes my point is that they should be sent to an establishment best suited to keep them if they are found to be sociopathic. I wouldn't say they should get therapy if that is the case since it has been noted that this can just worsen things in the case of sociopaths. If they aren't sociopathic though they should be punished appropriately with therapy to try and change them for the better.

Have they been diagnosed as such by an experienced clinician?

Either they are sociopaths, and thereby in need of reprogramming to convert them into productive members of society (during which they are squeezed for every cent they can generate to pay off their debt), or they are not sociopaths, and fully understand what they did, and should be tried as adults, with suitable punishments to follow, typically more hard labor.

They should be punished with the intent of setting an example rather than to see justice served?


Half the point of justice is setting examples so future generations will avoid taking up criminal behavior.

Either they are sociopaths, and thereby in need of reprogramming to convert them into productive members of society (during which they are squeezed for every cent they can generate to pay off their debt), or they are not sociopaths, and fully understand what they did, and should be tried as adults, with suitable punishments to follow, typically more hard labor.

Sociopaths are a bad group to target therapy to since it has been shown to have negative effects in the past.

If they aren't sociopathic though then yes I would agree that they should be imprisoned all the same but therapy is an option along side this

Half the point of justice is setting examples so future generations will avoid taking up criminal behavior.

And every group that is punished should be given the same level of justice. It is unfair to treat someone even more harshly than they would be just to send out a message to society. If you make it a change for every offender then that is a different matter but if you decide that one pickpocket, for example, should be punished way more harshly than others just to send out an example, i'd have a problem with that

They should be punished with the intent of setting an example rather than to see justice served?

And yes my point is that they should be sent to an establishment best suited to keep them if they are found to be sociopathic. I wouldn't say they should get therapy if that is the case since it has been noted that this can just worsen things in the case of sociopaths. If they aren't sociopathic though they should be punished appropriately with therapy to try and change them for the better.

I said a long time, within the constraints of the law. Justice would be served in that case, legally speaking. For the solution I proposed, check my first post in this thread, on page 15.

and how is telling teenagers that what they did was wrong, and that they were despicable for doing what they did and that they have no one to blame but themselves because they are now 13 years old and it's time to take some responsibility wrong?

Um its wrong as it wont help anything ... what are the chanses that these kids were also emotionally or physically abused themselfs as kids ... I am sure calling them dispicable will help after hearing it from there parents for years

But of course your opinion is way more valid then all thoes therapists that you have so little respect for ...

Um its wrong as it wont help anything ... what are the chanses that these kids were also emotionally or physically abused themselfs as kids ... I am sure calling them dispicable will help after hearing it from there parents for years

But of course your opinion is way more valid then all thoes therapists that you have so little respect for ...

Ok, so at what point do the kids start taking responsibility for their actions? Because at some point, they're going to have to owe up for their actions.

Ok, so at what point do the kids start taking responsibility for their actions? Because at some point, they're going to have to owe up for their actions.

Who said otherwise?