NationStates Jolt Archive

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/11/britain.kurdkilling.reut/index.html

ONDON, England (Reuters) -- A Kurdish man was convicted in a London court on Monday of murdering his 20-year-old daughter in a so-called "honor killing" after she left her husband and fell in love with another man.

Banaz Mahmod was strangled with a shoelace in her home in London, her body was stuffed in a suitcase and taken some 120 miles (190 kilometers) to the city of Birmingham, where it was buried in the back garden of a house.

Mahmod Mahmod, 52, ordered his own daughter's murder with the help of his brother Ari Mahmod, 51. The killing itself was carried out by their associate Mohamad Hama, 30, and two other suspects who are still at large, police said.

The court had been told that Banaz had been forced to marry an Iraqi Kurd when she was 17 but the relationship collapsed. She returned to live with her parents in 2005, later falling in love with Rahmat Suleimani.

Her family decided to kill her because they believed the relationship had brought dishonor on the family as Suleimani was an Iranian Kurd and not a strict Muslim.

Banaz's body was found in April 2006, months after she was killed.

Honor killings were almost unheard of in Britain until a few years ago but police and prosecutors now estimate there are about a dozen such murders a year.

Campaigners say that the issue was misunderstood and that the authorities had been unwilling to get involved for fear of upsetting cultural sensitivities in minority communities.

Banaz had contacted police a number of times before her death, saying her life was at risk, but no action was taken.

An inquiry is under way into the police handling of the case.

"I don't think I have loved anyone as much as I have loved Banaz," Suleimani said in a statement.

"She was my first love. She meant the world to me."

Mahmod Mahmod, Ari Mahmod and Hama will be sentenced at a later date along with Pshtewan Hama, 26, who admitted perverting the course of justice.

Wow, looks like a European judge finally looked into his pants and found something wonderful: his fucking TESTICLES.

How much do you wanna bet that he gets two years, TOPS?

Those are some of the worst crimes you can read about, I think. There's usually very little or no immorality even involved, just some archaic belief that a family name is more important than life itself. Terrible.

I don't believe it either!!!

How do you strangle someone with a shoelace?

EDIT: ah, it was a bootlace

Also...

The very people who should have protected her from harm plotted her killing, garrotted her with a bootlace, stuffed her body in a suitcase and buried her under a freezer.

Bit of overkill no?

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/11/britain.kurdkilling.reut/index.html

Wow, looks like a European judge finally looked into his pants and found something wonderful: his fucking TESTICLES.

How much do you wanna bet that he gets two years, TOPS?

This somehow comes as a revelation to you? News flash: religion makes people do stupid things.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/11/britain.kurdkilling.reut/index.html



Wow, looks like a European judge finally looked into his pants and found something wonderful: his fucking TESTICLES.

How much do you wanna bet that he gets two years, TOPS?

I'm missing something. What aren't we believing?

This somehow comes as a revelation to you? News flash: religion makes people do stupid things.

No, what amazed me was that he was convicted.

I'm missing something. What aren't we believing?

That he got convicted.

I don't believe it either!!!

How do you strangle someone with a shoelace?

They're stronger than you think. I've read about a shoelace being used a few different times at crimelibrary.com. I don't ordinarily like to read that stuff, but it's pretty gripping in a horrific kind of way once you start reading about notorious killers and the like. :(

That he got convicted.

I guess you're more easily impressed than me... it isn't that unusual for people who commit visible crimes, to be convicted of them...

Here's what I don't get: If honor killings are such a cultural and defendable norm, why stuff her body in a suitcase and bury her in a garden?

I'll tell you why: Because they're cultist freaks. They are everybit as freakish as Warren Jeffs' mormons or Fred Phelps' christians or dorks who killed themselves so they could catch a ride on that mothership hiding behind a comet.

Their actions have nothing to do with their purported faiths and everything to do with twisted agendas.

Why are there never pie-flinging cults? :(

why is it all this weird violence comes from London and the North? :p

I guess you're more easily impressed than me... it isn't that unusual for people who commit visible crimes, to be convicted of them...

But he is a Muslim, therefore political correctness would dictate that cultural sensitivity would result in a not-guilty verdict. But he was gloriously found guilty, a righteous loss for political correctness (that bitchy dog!), and The Potato Factory can rejoice!

</sarcasm>

Here's what I don't get: If honor killings are such a cultural and defendable norm, why stuff her body in a suitcase and bury her in a garden?

...because it's against British law.

Here's what happens elsewhere

Ghazala (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engASA330181999) was set on fire by her brother in Joharabad, Punjab province, on 6 January 1999. According to reports, she was murdered because her family suspected she was having an 'illicit' relationship with a neighbour. Her burned and naked body reportedly lay unattended on the street for two hours as nobody wanted to have anything to do with it.

Why are there never pie-flinging cults? :(

There are, it's just hard to kill someone by flinging pies, granted the occasional 1-ton pie experiment has had tragic results, but the media's not interested.

I'll tell you why: Because they're cultist freaks. They are everybit as freakish as Warren Jeffs' mormons or Fred Phelps' christians or dorks who killed themselves so they could catch a ride on that mothership hiding behind a comet.

That is unfair to the Heaven's Gate people... Being compared with the Phelps family. Sickening.

...because it's against British law.



...it's just hard to kill someone by flinging pies...

Actually, you might be surprised just how easy it is.

<_<

>_>

...er... theoretically.

:)

No, what amazed me was that he was convicted.

Deep down in the bowels of fuckwittery, in the lowest, dankest level, is a man, digging a hole......

I guess you're more easily impressed than me... it isn't that unusual for people who commit visible crimes, to be convicted of them...

It wouldn't be the first time someone's gotten off for something like this because of their religion.

It wouldn't be the first time someone's gotten off for something like this because of their religion.

it wouldn't :confused:

It wouldn't be the first time someone's gotten off for something like this because of their religion.

Examples please.

Examples please.

That would be too much effort on my part. It's definitely been on NS before, though. Think there was one in France like this.

That would be too much effort on my part. It's definitely been on NS before, though. Think there was one in France like this.

I can...

Honour (http://www.islamawareness.net/HonourKilling/outside.html) killing was only abolished as a specific category in Italy in 1981, and murders in the name of honour still occur in the country. In 2006, Bruna Morito was shot six times in the face by her brother for bearing a child outside marriage. In Brazil, men could be acquitted for murdering their wives up until 1991, and there have been 800 recorded such murders in a single year. Even in 1991, a lower court ignored the ruling of the Supreme Court and acquitted Joao Lopes for the double homicide of his wife and her lover.

Oh wait a minute, those are Christian. You want examples that support Muslim honour killings in the West that have been acquitted due to religion - can't find any :(

That would be too much effort on my part.


Awwwww - we wouldn't want you to make any effort to back up your claims, you poor wee crayther....You just sit there and drink your milk while I call "bullshit" on your previous assertion.

I can...

Oh wait a minute, those are Christian. You want examples that support Muslim honour killings in the West that have been acquitted due to religion - can't find any :(

I enjoyed that post.

Awwwww - we wouldn't want you to make any effort to back up your claims, you poor wee crayther....You just sit there and drink your milk while I call "bullshit" on your previous assertion.

Well, there was a woman who was killed in Berlin by her brothers. One got 10 years, the other two got off.

i'm sceptical, as a mater of principal, about anything that has corporate media as a source. something a certain gentleman named clemins said a few decades back.

not that anything isn't possible.
but you know, an eye that has a bolt in it, will latch onto any sliver in another.

not that this whole bussiness is a small matter or other then horrendous.

but yes, there have probably been stupid things done in the name of all religeons. things i seriuosly doubt any of their revealers actually had in mind.

=^^=
.../\...

Well, there was a woman who was killed in Berlin by her brothers. One got 10 years, the other two got off.

Link. That doesn't sound like "o you can go, you're muslim" to me so far....

Well, there was a woman who was killed in Berlin by her brothers. One got 10 years, the other two got off.

10 years is a long time and I'd bet the other two where allowed to go free because they had little involvement or something similar

No, what amazed me was that he was convicted.Why? And then further to your answer to that question - Why?

Well, here's the link to the Berlin story : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4905758.stm

The murderer got tried, convicted and jailed according to German law. The brother, as far as I can tell, was in no way involved and cleared of charges.

Well, here's the link to the Berlin story : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4905758.stm

The murderer got tried, convicted and jailed according to German law. The brother, as far as I can tell, was in no way involved and cleared of charges.

Yep.

Sad thing is, she was hot.:(

10 years is a long time and I'd bet the other two where allowed to go free because they had little involvement or something similar

Mate, you get ten years for deleting data of Swinburne computers. Ten years is not enough for murder.

The murderer got tried, convicted and jailed according to German law. The brother, as far as I can tell, was in no way involved and cleared of charges.

Yeah, supplying the murder weapon is no involvement.

Religion.

Side effects may include but are not limited to sociopathic behavior.

Yeah, supplying the murder weapon is no involvement.

Fact remains the legnth of their sentances had nothing to do woth the fact they were muslims. Show us it was comparitively less than other sentaneces for the same crime in the same state or you lose your point, again, and prove what a bigot you are, again.

Yeah, supplying the murder weapon is no involvement.

Deutsche Welle (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1968686,00.html) reports that he got that weapon of an illegal Russian trader. Unless that Turkish family had very close genetic relations to Russian arms traders, I doubt that this refers to his brother.

Mate, you get ten years for deleting data of Swinburne computers. Ten years is not enough for murder.

Ten years is the maximum sentence possible under German law. If you have an issue with the German legal system, better create another thread for the topic.

It wouldn't be the first time someone's gotten off for something like this because of their religion.

in england? source?

Fact remains the legnth of their sentances had nothing to do woth the fact they were muslims. Show us it was comparitively less than other sentaneces for the same crime in the same state or you lose your point, again, and prove what a bigot you are, again.

You make it seem like I care that people think I'm a bigot. I don't. I hate anyone who isn't like me. They're foreign devils.

Ten years is the maximum sentence possible under German law. If you have an issue with the German legal system, better create another thread for the topic.

Pfhhh, the German legal system. You get more time for littering than for killing a baby.

You make it seem like I care that people think I'm a bigot. I don't. I hate anyone who isn't like me. They're foreign devils.

I don't care whether you care or not. What I do care about is you making an assertion and having the guts/ability to back it up. Which you obviously don't.

I can't think of anything that my daughter would do to make me kill her... that's sad.

I can't think of anything that my daughter would do to make me kill her... that's sad.

Wait til she crashes your car.

Pfhhh, the German legal system. You get more time for littering than for killing a baby.

Well, we can always make more babies. But damaging the environment is unforgivable, we've only got the one.

Well, we can always make more babies. But damaging the environment is unforgivable, we've only got the one.

We should make more babies out in the environment. Then people will associate it with very good memories and will want to preserve it even more

This somehow comes as a revelation to you? News flash: religion makes people do stupid things.

So do political and personal beliefs.

Libertarianism (McVeigh), Communism (RAF), Anarchism (Unabomber) have all motivated people to commit random murders.

People do stupid things, period.

You make it seem like I care that people think I'm a bigot. I don't. I hate anyone who isn't like me. They're foreign devils.

Hmmmmm. Trying to divert attention away from your cock up by throwing up "fresh" controversy. Sad....


Pfhhh, the German legal system. You get more time for littering than for killing a baby..

Disowning the Fatherland? It was "Deutcheland Uber Alles" with you not so long ago....

And the pros and cons of the German legal system aside, your assertion is still bollocks.

We should make more babies out in the environment. Then people will associate it with very good memories and will want to preserve it even more

I hear ya!
*packs blanket and sun screen and sets off to the park to make babies*

Hmmmmm. Trying to divert attention away from your cock up by throwing up "fresh" controversy. Sad....



Disowning the Fatherland? It was "Deutcheland Uber Alles" with you not so long ago....

And the pros and cons of the German legal system aside, your assertion is still bollocks.
Interesting how the debate shifts from "they don't lock Muslims up for long enough out of PC" to "they don't lock anybody up long enough."

So do political and personal beliefs.

Libertarianism (McVeigh), Communism (RAF), Anarchism (Unabomber) have all motivated people to commit random murders.

People do stupid things, period.

Notice that all three are on the left side of the political spectrum.

Notice that all three are on the left side of the political spectrum.

Timothy McVeigh was a leftist?

...

(it has to be noted I agree with many of his views, just not the entire blowing-up-babies bit).

I can...



Oh wait a minute, those are Christian. You want examples that support Muslim honour killings in the West that have been acquitted due to religion - can't find any :(

...

Holy shit.

Italy? In Italy?

...

Timothy McVeigh was a leftist?

You're the one who said he was libertarian.

...

Holy shit.

Italy? In Italy?

...

Southern Italy is to Western Europe as the Middle East is to the Universe.

Go watch/read "I'm Not Scared."

This somehow comes as a revelation to you? News flash: religion makes people do stupid things.

Heh sorry which part of which religion demands that a duaghter should be killed for dating the wrong man again, I always forget?


Ummm or is it an aspect of culture, and nothing to do with religoin? Ummm I wonder?

Heh sorry which part of which religion demands that a duaghter should be killed for dating the wrong man again, I always forget?


Ummm or is it an aspect of culture, and nothing to do with religoin? Ummm I wonder?

Here you go...

- Num. 25:1-5, the people have been practising adultery with Moabite women and worshipping their gods. God is angry at them and commands Moses to kill the ring-leaders, which he does.

- Num. 25:6-18, an Israelite man brings his Midianite girlfriend before the tabernacle. Phineas, son of the high priest, runs them both through with a javelin, thus ending the plague that had already killed 24,000 Israelites. God commands the Israelites to kill the Midianites.

La la loving God.

Those are some of the worst crimes you can read about, I think. There's usually very little or no immorality even involved, just some archaic belief that a family name is more important than life itself. Terrible.

Well, this is what happens when a culture rejects femininity. Not all at once, certainly, but this is where it ends up. Most cultures that champion masculinity and a masculine notion of the family end up with the idea that the head of a household should be allowed to kill those within it as though he is the governor of a small country.

That's why it creeps me out so bad when I hear politicians in America talking about "family values." I know it's in a different league, but it's the same ballgame. A T-Ball game between 6-year olds may seem like an endearing piece of performance art. But it's still a boring shitty game of baseball and will be just as bad when its players grow up.

Here you go...



La la loving God.

Ahhh the Good ole Bible huh! Yeah well who takes note of that huh!

You're the one who said he was libertarian.

He's got you there, Allanea.

Southern Italy is to Western Europe as the Middle East is to the Universe.

Go watch/read "I'm Not Scared."

You do realise that was set in the 70s, right? Before women got the right to vote in Switzerland?

Ahhh the Good ole Bible huh! Yeah well who takes note of that huh!

Yeah, problem with the Bible is that it can support anything you want it to.

Yeah, problem with the Bible is that it can support anything you want it to.

Umm is that a problem? If it can be used to support any POV, then doesn't that just prove what a crock of shit it is?

Yeah, problem with the Bible is that it can support anything you want it to.

And everything you don't. That's the great thing about all holy books :D

You do realise that was set in the 70s, right? Before women got the right to vote in Switzerland?

From what I've heard from some Italian people, they're still quite that way. Backwardish...

I mean, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with living in a little village. My grandparents do. But they're modern on the inside; they've got CABLE.

Umm is that a problem? If it can be used to support any POV, then doesn't that just prove what a crock of shit it is?

It shows that God is omniscient in that he holds every view known to man

*nod*

From what I've heard from some Italian people, they're still quite that way. Backwardish...

I mean, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with living in a little village. My grandparents do. But they're modern on the inside; they've got CABLE.

I think Berlusconi made sure that all small Italian villages now have cable... :p

He's got you there, Allanea.

Why?

Libertarians can be left or right wing and Timothy McVeigh was right wing?

He hasn't 'got' Allanea there at all

Why?

Libertarians can be left or right wing and Timothy McVeigh was right wing?

He hasn't 'got' Allanea there at all

It's a joke between us actual liberatarians (anarchists/communists) and "libertarian" free-marketeers. *nudge nudge, wink wink*

You make it seem like I care that people think I'm a bigot. I don't. I hate anyone who isn't like me. They're foreign devils.

This coming from someone who's descended from foreign devils shipped off to a large penal continent as foreigners. Irony much?

It's a joke between us actual liberatarians (anarchists/communists) and "libertarian" free-marketeers. *nudge nudge, wink wink*

Oh :confused:

I know nothing :)

This coming from someone who's descended from foreign devils shipped off to a large penal continent as foreigners. Irony much?

I'm not descended of the convicts.

I'm not descended of the convicts.

No your descended from foriegn devil immigrants.

Ironic indeed.

Here's what I don't get: If honor killings are such a cultural and defendable norm, why stuff her body in a suitcase and bury her in a garden?

I'll tell you why: Because they're cultist freaks. They are everybit as freakish as Warren Jeffs' mormons or Fred Phelps' christians or dorks who killed themselves so they could catch a ride on that mothership hiding behind a comet.

Their actions have nothing to do with their purported faiths and everything to do with twisted agendas.

Why are there never pie-flinging cults? :(

It's false and petty self-righteousness. This seems to pop up in a lot of these "honor" killings. On the one hand, they justify it as defending their family honor, and yet if that's their reasoning, and they feel they are justified in doing so, one would imagine they'd at least have the kojones to fess up to it. But generally, they're temperamental cowards hiding behind their faith and culture, and they understand that what they did was wrong. Hence the attempt at hiding the crime.

No your descended from foriegn devil immigrants.

Ironic indeed.

Hey, my parents came through legitimately. Not like people who break in on put-put boats, or exploit work and education systems to get free stays.

Hey, my parents came through legitimately. Not like people who break in on put-put boats, or exploit work and education systems to get free stays.

So what you're saying is "You're right. I am descended from foreign immigrants" ?

So what you're saying is "You're right. I am descended from foreign immigrants" ?

Sure sounds that way. Ferners...:D

So what you're saying is "You're right. I am descended from foreign immigrants" ?

White, Western-cultured foreign immigrants.

You mean Muslims commit crimes just like the rest of us? SHOCKER!

Try again next time TPF.

White, Western-cultured foreign immigrants.

Still foreigners... and what's wrong with being a foreigner or an immigrant?

Still foreigners... and what's wrong with being a foreigner or an immigrant?

How many ACTUALLY INTEGRATE? They don't come and start a new life, they just bring their fucking baggage with them, and then demand that we adapt to tolerate them.

Still foreigners... and what's wrong with being a foreigner or an immigrant?

They make Dublin all dangerous with their park-related baby making

How many ACTUALLY INTEGRATE? They don't come and start a new life, they just bring their fucking baggage with them, and then demand that we adapt to tolerate them.

Like the good white folks did when they came to australia and assimilated to the native's culture?

Give me a fucking break.

Like the good white folks did when they came to australia and assimilated to the native's culture?

Give me a fucking break.

What, the aborigines? I'd hardly call that a culture. Dancing around in their underwear throwing bent sticks at animals that could kick their brains out. The Native Americans were much better natives than the aborigines.

Besides, that was invasion, not immigration.

Like the good white folks did when they came to australia and assimilated to the native's culture?

Give me a fucking break.

Ah, yes, but that was ok. Because after all, the aboriginals weren't white.
[/sarcasm]

God, kid, how old are you? How many years of heavy metal and teen angst does it take to create a TPF?

What, the aborigines? I'd hardly call that a culture. Dancing around in their underwear throwing bent sticks at animals that could kick their brains out. The Native Americans were much better natives than the aborigines.

Amusingly enough, kiddo, not too ridiculously long ago your Germanic ancestors were doing much the same thing. I can see a bit of that showing through right now.

Amusingly enough, kiddo, not too ridiculously long ago your Germanic ancestors were doing much the same thing. I can see a bit of that showing through right now.

I'm fairly sure my ancestors at least had METAL WORKING. You know, the one with smelting? The bronze and iron?

I'm fairly sure my ancestors at least had METAL WORKING. You know, the one with smelting? The bronze and iron?

Oh god. This is so stupid I don't even know how to properly respond to it. Go back far enough, and your people were throwing rocks at each other, grunting as a form of communication, and thumping their chests as a sign of being "Da Mensch," and probably calling themselves Ugh and similar guttural names.

It really wasn't until the Romans kicked your ancestors' collective asses (repeatedly) that you had more than stolen weapons and fur.

Oh god. This is so stupid I don't even know how to properly respond to it. Go back far enough, and your people were throwing rocks at each other, grunting as a form of communication, and thumping their chests as a sign of being "Da Mensch," and probably calling themselves Ugh and similar guttural names.

It really wasn't until the Romans kicked your ancestors' collective asses (repeatedly) that you had more than stolen weapons and fur.

Go back far enough and we're all amoeba crawling out of the ocean. What's your point?

You underestimate ancient cultures. Almost everyone stopped the chest beating and grunting when we leaped over from Cro-Magnon to Sapiens Sapiens.

Go back far enough and we're all amoeba crawling out of the ocean. What's your point?

You underestimate ancient cultures. Almost everyone stopped the chest beating and grunting when we leaped over from Cro-Magnon to Sapiens Sapiens.

What an amusing statement.

Amusingly enough, kiddo, not too ridiculously long ago your Germanic ancestors were doing much the same thing. I can see a bit of that showing through right now.

Oh, they're still running around in ridiculous outfits, but now they've hollowed out tree trunks and make them sound like elephants and call it culture.

http://www.metalldatenbank.de/allgaeu_bilder/gallery/verkehrsamt_bolsterlang/Bilder/Alphorn.jpg

Well, there was a woman who was killed in Berlin by her brothers. One got 10 years, the other two got off.

Ooh, you're good! Your evidence that people 'get away with murder' because of their religion, is that, 'in this one case, this guy got 10 years'.

I'm sensing a disturbance in the false. The false is strong with this one.

I'm fairly sure my ancestors at least had METAL WORKING. You know, the one with smelting? The bronze and iron?

And that couldn't possibly be to do with the fact that the Australian aborigenes didn't have the necessary materials to work metal, right? :rolleyes:

Notice that all three are on the left side of the political spectrum.

Hitler, Mussolini, abortion clinic bombings, crusades, dictatorships in all of South America, and on it goes...

You make it seem like I care that people think I'm a bigot. I don't. I hate anyone who isn't like me. They're foreign devils.

We're all foreign devils, old chap... unless your posts are coming to us from 'the Cradle of Life'.

What, the aborigines? I'd hardly call that a culture.

What the fuck is a culture then?

Dancing around in their underwear throwing bent sticks at animals that could kick their brains out. The Native Americans were much better natives than the aborigines.

Seeing as Australia is home to a very large number of lethal animals, I'd say the "aborigines" were doing a-ok until you white-devil came along.


Besides, that was invasion, not immigration.
A much more sensible reason to kill and not live in harmony. :rolleyes:

We should make more babies out in the environment. Then people will associate it with very good memories and will want to preserve it even more

Dundee wins the thread.

And that couldn't possibly be to do with the fact that the Australian aborigenes didn't have the necessary materials to work metal, right? :rolleyes:

The didn't have METAL?

Here's what I don't get: If honor killings are such a cultural and defendable norm, why stuff her body in a suitcase and bury her in a garden?

I'll tell you why: Because they're cultist freaks. They are everybit as freakish as Warren Jeffs' mormons or Fred Phelps' christians or dorks who killed themselves so they could catch a ride on that mothership hiding behind a comet.

Their actions have nothing to do with their purported faiths and everything to do with twisted agendas.

Why are there never pie-flinging cults? :(

Honor killings are rampant in certain areas of the world, like Pakistan.

They are far, far more prevalent than protests by Fred Phelps.

I'm fairly sure my ancestors at least had METAL WORKING. You know, the one with smelting? The bronze and iron?

Well there you go then. Muslims have metal working. You two are so much alike it's no wonder we can't differentiate between your two cultures of blood, pillage and close-mindedness.

Dundee wins the thread.

Yay :p I think this may be my first. I hope it wasn't as clumsy and awkward as other firsts of mine

The didn't have METAL?

You need wood to make charcoal to get enough heat to melt metal, Einstein.
Last time I checked, the majority of Australia wasn't exactly covered in dense forests.

The didn't have METAL?

I'm wondering what the significance of metal is, anyway. It seems to me that semi-nomadic peoples are ill-suited to the processes needed to build a metal-working culture - the mining, the deforestation... just for starters. It also seems to me that cultures that don't work metal probably do less damage to their environment, and live in better balance with their surroundings.

That would make the aboriginal Australians (for example) paragons in a field in which we 'civilised' people are still fumbling virgins.

You need wood to make charcoal to get enough heat to melt metal, Einstein.
Last time I checked, the majority of Australia wasn't exactly covered in dense forests.

No, just acres and acres of gumtrees.

Well there you go then. Muslims have metal working. You two are so much alike it's no wonder we can't differentiate between your two cultures of blood, pillage and close-mindedness.

For one, I'd never kill my daughter for holding hands with a boy.

I'm wondering what the significance of metal is, anyway. It seems to me that semi-nomadic peoples are ill-suited to the processes needed to build a metal-working culture - the mining, the deforestation... just for starters. It also seems to me that cultures that don't work metal probably do less damage to their environment, and live in better balance with their surroundings.

That would make the aboriginal Australians (for example) paragons in a field in which we 'civilised' people are still fumbling virgins.

Metal leads to better tools, which leads to better construction, which leads to basic architecture and early scientific method.

For one, I'd never kill my daughter for holding hands with a boy.

What if he was foreign? Or a Muslim?

No, just acres and acres of gumtrees.

I'd recommend you read this little book before making even more of a fool of yourself :

Guns, germs and steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel)

For one, I'd never kill my daughter for holding hands with a boy.

Now go on and tell me that every Muslim in the world would.

I'm waiting...

I'm wondering what the significance of metal is, anyway. It seems to me that semi-nomadic peoples are ill-suited to the processes needed to build a metal-working culture - the mining, the deforestation... just for starters. It also seems to me that cultures that don't work metal probably do less damage to their environment, and live in better balance with their surroundings.

That would make the aboriginal Australians (for example) paragons in a field in which we 'civilised' people are still fumbling virgins.

The thing about working metal is, you need an environment which can sustain settled living (meaning you need domesticable animals, and crops). Australia had neither. As a result, the original inhabitants remained nomadic, which was the best way to ensure survival.

And which makes metal working not only superfluous, but downright balast.

For one, I'd never kill my daughter for holding hands with a boy.

So you are saying that all Muslims would commit an honor killing?

Metal leads to better tools, which leads to better construction, which leads to basic architecture and early scientific method.

No. Metal can lead down that route - but that's not the only way.

Aztecs, for example, had no access to iron. Thus, their metal working was limited to 'soft' metals like copper, silver and gold - and largely took the form of decorative pieces. And yet, they has fairly advanced mathematics, a written language and pretty advanced science in fields like astronomy.

I think you maybe play "Civilisations" too much.

For one, I'd never kill my daughter for holding hands with a boy.

I see there's something you and the vast majority of Muslims agree on.

What if he was foreign? Or a Muslim?

That's her choice. I'd never speak to her again if she did marry a Muslim. That's MY choice.

The thing about working metal is, you need an environment which can sustain settled living (meaning you need domesticable animals, and crops). Australia had neither. As a result, the original inhabitants remained nomadic, which was the best way to ensure survival.

And which makes metal working not only superfluous, but downright balast.

I think that's the point I was making.

Also, of course, if you have a non-metal culture, your basic 'tools' can be harvested directly from your enviroment, almost at will.

The thing about working metal is, you need an environment which can sustain settled living (meaning you need domesticable animals, and crops). Australia had neither. As a result, the original inhabitants remained nomadic, which was the best way to ensure survival.

And which makes metal working not only superfluous, but downright balast.

Metal working is just an example of one of the many technologies that thousands of civilisations have had trouble grasping.

That's her choice. I'd never speak to her again if she did marry a Muslim. That's MY choice.

If you would choose to impose your religion on your daughter, your 'choice' seems like it would be little loss.

It is amusing (in a sad sort of way) that you see no parallel between your own barbaric tribal xenophobia, and the system of 'honour killing'.

I see there's something you and the vast majority of Muslims agree on.

I find it hard to believe that the Saudis, Iranians and Afghans would agree with my sentiments.

No. Metal can lead down that route - but that's not the only way.

Aztecs, for example, had no access to iron. Thus, their metal working was limited to 'soft' metals like copper, silver and gold - and largely took the form of decorative pieces. And yet, they has fairly advanced mathematics, a written language and pretty advanced science in fields like astronomy.

And tell me, how do any of those fields require iron specifically?

If you would choose to impose your religion on your daughter, your 'choice' seems like it would be little loss.

I don't have a religion.

It is amusing (in a sad sort of way) that you see no parallel between your own barbaric tribal xenophobia, and the system of 'honour killing'.

The difference is that I don't kill people for not covering their ankles or looking at a member of the opposite sex.

Metal working is just an example of one of the many technologies that thousands of civilisations have had trouble grasping.

M-hm. And what would the other examples be?

Metal working is just an example of one of the many technologies that thousands of civilisations have had trouble grasping.

So is assimilation of future influxes of settlers. Many cultures that call themselves 'civilised' still have problems with that one.

I find it hard to believe that the Saudis, Iranians and Afghans would agree with my sentiments.

If I ever care about what you believe in or not as opposed to facts, I'll let you know.

That's her choice. I'd never speak to her again if she did marry a Muslim. That's MY choice.

You could love your daughter so little that you would throw your relationship with her away based on this?

M-hm. And what would the other examples be?

Animal domestication. Sea faring. THE WHEEL. WRITING. Fairly basic shit here, people!

And tell me, how do any of those fields require iron specifically?

Your strawman.

You suggested that metal working and 'better tools' were requirements for architecture and science.

The Aztecs show your 'argument' to be a feeble, poorly-researched, lie.

So is assimilation of future influxes of settlers. Many cultures that call themselves 'civilised' still have problems with that one.

I don't change for them, they change for us. If they don't like it, they can get on the boat and start rowing back to Asia.

Animal domestication. Sea faring. THE WHEEL. WRITING. Fairly basic shit here, people!

Do you have a problem with the letter W? Doesn't it deserve to be bolded? Edit:Darn your ninja editing skills! It looked different when I quoted it!

Oh, and to stay marginally on topic, or at least what the topic seems to have shifted to, I'll just kinda point out that Europe wasn't the first to develop a writing system. And considering that Australia was, if I'm not mistaken, originally settled by peoples coming from different islands, I'm not really sure where that sea faring bit comes in.

You could love your daughter so little that you would throw your relationship with her away based on this?

If my daughter married a Muslim, she might as well join a suicide alien mothership cult for all I care.

I don't change for them, they change for us. If they don't like it, they can get on the boat and start rowing back to Asia.

Or... they can stay there and ignore the opinion of a bigot?

I don't have a religion.


I disagree. It is possible to be atheistic, agnostic, or just 'non-religiously spiritual' in harmony with just about any religion. The fact that you choose to segregate the world according to other people's observations of THEIR gods, suggests you have a 'religious' bias of your own.

If you live your non-religiousness as a religion, it's a religion.


The difference is that I don't kill people for not covering their ankles or looking at a member of the opposite sex.

Provide me sources.

Your strawman.

You suggested that metal working and 'better tools' were requirements for architecture and science.

The Aztecs show your 'argument' to be a feeble, poorly-researched, lie.

Yes, because the Aztecs were such a pinnacle of scientific knowledge. Truly advanced in chemistry and biology were they.

I don't change for them, they change for us. If they don't like it, they can get on the boat and start rowing back to Asia.

What made you make the mistaken assumption I cared whether you change or not? It's a global world, now. Your 'people' are dying out. (And, no - 'your' people don't have a border or a tribe... they are the xenophobes in every nation).

I disagree. It is possible to be atheistic, agnostic, or just 'non-religiously spiritual' in harmony with just about any religion. The fact that you choose to segregate the world according to other people's observations of THEIR gods, suggests you have a 'religious' bias of your own.

I don't care about their god. I care about their beliefs.

Provide me sources.

You've never heard of Saudi Arabia? The Taliban?

Yes, because the Aztecs were such a pinnacle of scientific knowledge. Truly advanced in chemistry and biology were they.

Eh? Architecture=s chemistry and biology?

If my daughter married a Muslim, she might as well join a suicide alien mothership cult for all I care.

Watch out, ladies and gentlemen, the results of substituting hate for sexual gratification.

What made you make the mistaken assumption I cared whether you change or not? It's a global world, now. Your 'people' are dying out. (And, no - 'your' people don't have a border or a tribe... they are the xenophobes in every nation).

No, no we're not. Every time a sheik comes out a tell us that women deserve to be raped because of what they wear, that just makes us angrier and more numerous.

Mate, you get ten years for deleting data of Swinburne computers. Ten years is not enough for murder.
It is, in civilized countries.

It is, in civilized countries.

No, no it's not. You take away a LIFE, and TEN YEARS IS ENOUGH? There's something wrong with you.

Yes, because the Aztecs were such a pinnacle of scientific knowledge. Truly advanced in chemistry and biology were they.

I don't see where you are going with this. Greeks built computers from clockwork that took the rest of 'western civilisation' two thousand years to match. Babylonians advanced the borders in math to encompass fields that 'western civilisation' wouldn't even be in a position to gain, for another 3 or 4 thousand years. Egyptians had knowledge of medicine in some areas that our 'chemistry' (which, by the way, is named after Egypt) wouldn't catch up on for thousands of years.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that science must advance across all disciplines.

Show me one single civilisation that developed in proximity to the sea or any major body of water and didn't develope seafaring.

The aborigines!

Writing is an incredibly high skill that was only developed independently by 3 civilisations worldwide. So much for being basic.

And what three would that be?

Animal domestication. Sea faring. THE WHEEL. WRITING. Fairly basic shit here, people!

Show me one single civilisation that developed in proximity to the sea or any major body of water and didn't develope seafaring.

Animal domestication can only happen if your environment HAS domesticable animals. Europe for example didn't domesticate a SINGLE animal, all domesticated animals were brought in from other cultures. The same goes for crops.

The wheel is only useful in flat, even terrain. And it's only ever REALLY useful when you have a domesticated animal that can pull it. Which is why it's been discovered in Peru, but as toy for children. It was no use in that environment.

Writing is an incredibly high skill that was only developed independently by 3 civilisations worldwide. So much for being basic.

Yes, because the Aztecs were such a pinnacle of scientific knowledge. Truly advanced in chemistry and biology were they.

Who cares?

You stated that muslim have to do something your own culture hasn't done. (assimilating) I don't really care to show you how wrong you are on your tangents. The fact is, you are comdemning a culture for something your own culture did not so long ago.

One might think than education and communication could go a very long way to stop honor killing. Far more than what you advocate.

One might think than education and communication could go a very long way to stop honor killing. Far more than what you advocate.

Educate them in the own goddamn countries. Why should they come here and start trouble? We don't want any shit, but they start it.

No, no we're not. Every time a sheik comes out a tell us that women deserve to be raped because of what they wear, that just makes us angrier and more numerous.

Those sheiks are part of 'your culture'. Most muslims condone such behaviour no more than anyone else.

And they don't make 'your people' more numerous or angrier... they provide the fuel for small knots of (already angry) people to flare up at each other with increasing violence. Your kind are not getting more numerous - just louder.

No, no it's not. You take away a LIFE, and TEN YEARS IS ENOUGH? There's something wrong with you.

You would disown a child because of her boyfriends church... and you tell someone else there is something wrong with them?

Those sheiks are part of 'your culture'. Most muslims condone such behaviour no more than anyone else.

My culture? Yeah, right. I advocate gang rape because you didn't wear a tent! Wheeeee!

And they don't make 'your people' more numerous or angrier... they provide the fuel for small knots of (already angry) people to flare up at each other with increasing violence. Your kind are not getting more numerous - just louder.

Just about every other single white person I've spoken to, and most East Asians, agree that Muslims are a fucking problem.

The aborigines!

How do you think they got to Australia? Hm? Carried there by migrating storks?
The fact that they gave it up at some point doesn't mean they never had it.


And what three would that be?

China, the Middle East and Middle America (Maya, more specifically)

No, no we're not. Every time a sheik comes out a tell us that women deserve to be raped because of what they wear, that just makes us angrier and more numerous.

So... Your numbers increased by... none in the last years. And decreased by several due to dying off. Angry and hateful, and disowning people due to the anger in your bitter heart.

How do you think they got to Australia? Hm? Carried there by migrating storks?
The fact that they gave it up at some point doesn't mean they never had it.

Actually, they came across before Australia separated from Asia.

China, the Middle East and Middle America (Maya, more specifically)

"The Middle East" is not a culture. China is so old it could mean many of several Chinese cultures. Also, you missed Egypt.

No, no it's not. You take away a LIFE, and TEN YEARS IS ENOUGH? There's something wrong with you.

You don't get to tell people there's something wrong with them and not be laughed in the face, TPF.

You would disown a child because of her boyfriends church... and you tell someone else there is something wrong with them?

Wait...did he seriously say that? When?

EDIT: Holy fuck...I can't believe any one can be that hateful...

Actually, they came across before Australia separated from Asia.

You shouldn't make claims that anyone with high-school level knowledge of geology can easily refute.

"The Middle East" is not a culture. China is so old it could mean many of several Chinese cultures. Also, you missed Egypt.

Yes, the Middle East is a culture. Bigotry isn't, though.

Educate them in the own goddamn countries. Why should they come here and start trouble? We don't want any shit, but they start it.

Well, gee. Go back to Germany until such time that you learn to respect the environment then. Until that time, you are henceforth banned from Australia.

The aboriginals didn't want your shit but you started it.

You would disown a child because of her boyfriends church... and you tell someone else there is something wrong with them?

I didn't say disown. Just never speak to them again. Any son or daughter of mine who would return to the Dark Ages, they are dead to me.

I didn't say disown. Just never speak to them again. Any son or daughter of mine who would return to the Dark Ages, they are dead to me.

So... You'll ignore your daughter for speaking to you? :confused:

Well, gee. Go back to Germany until such time that you learn to respect the environment then. Until that time, you are henceforth banned from Australia.

I was born here, mate.

I'm not expert on Islam or religion in general, but I’m sure Muhammad would be sickened by this honor killing stuff.

At least from what little I know

You shouldn't make claims that anyone with high-school level knowledge of geology can easily refute.

They've actually been here for thousands upon thousands of years. It's not like they turned up on galleons 100 years before the British.

And hey, if I'm wrong, blame the Victorian education system, because that's how they taught it to me.

Yes, the Middle East is a culture. Bigotry isn't, though.

LOL! The Middle East is a much a culture as Earth is a culture. The Milky Way is a culture! The Universe is a culture!

And that couldn't possibly be to do with the fact that the Australian aborigenes didn't have the necessary materials to work metal, right? :rolleyes:

The main problem Aus Aboriginal peoples had compared to the europeans is that there was no plants or animals that could be cultivated/domesticated. This resulted not only in a really small population per square kilometer (as pretty much all hunter-gatherer societies had) but also very little spare time to think up new technologies that could have made their lives easier (and more technologically advanced).

Then there was the whole problem of each tribe having little contact with other tribes and very different environments to survive in...

Yes, because the Aztecs were such a pinnacle of scientific knowledge. Truly advanced in chemistry and biology were they.

When Cortez and his sailors stayed in Montezuma's palace, all you could hear was toilets flushing for the whole of the first day.

This was because the Spaniards had never seen indoor plumbing before and were completely fascinated by it.

Writing was invented by three civilisations throughout history: the Chinese, the Mesopotamians, and the Mesoamericans. Europeans learnt it from the people we now call Middle eastern.

So... You'll ignore your daughter for speaking to you? :confused:

Or just act really cold. It'd be like trying to chat with a Jehova's Witness or Scientologist.

I'm not expert on Islam or religion in general, but I’m sure Muhammad would be sickened by this honor killing stuff.

At least from what little I know

No, not quite. He married and raped a nine year old.

Actually, they came across before Australia separated from Asia.

You believe that, right? You actually belive that!
You seriously believe that Australia ony got cut off from Asia 42 000 years ago.

I think at this point of established and pronounced ignorance, further debate is futile. Read the book I recommended.



"The Middle East" is not a culture. China is so old it could mean many of several Chinese cultures.

"The Middle East" is one cultural area, and writing was developed over a long period of time. The first recognisable letters and alphabet was developed by the Sumerians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerians#Language_and_writing).

China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_writing) developed writing possibly a good deal earlier. Not quite sure how it would make any difference which "Chinese culture" developed writing, though.

They've actually been here for thousands upon thousands of years.

It takes much more than that for continents to separate. We're talking MILLIONS of years here.

And middle eastern culture exists, yes. As does Australian culture, or European culture.

You believe that, right? You actually belive that!
You seriously believe that Australia ony got cut off from Asia 42 000 years ago.

I think at this point of established and pronounced ignorance, further debate is futile. Read the book I recommended.

Lifted from Wikipedia:

It is believed that first human migration to Australia was when this landmass formed part of the Sahul continent, connected to the island of New Guinea via a land bridge. The most generally accepted date for first arrival is between 40,000 - 50,000 years before present.

They've actually been here for thousands upon thousands of years. It's not like they turned up on galleons 100 years before the British.

And hey, if I'm wrong, blame the Victorian education system, because that's how they taught it to me.



LOL! The Middle East is a much a culture as Earth is a culture. The Milky Way is a culture! The Universe is a culture!

I guess the Victorian system has a lot on its conscience....

Seriously, please inform yourself before making statements. You have no idea how much of a fool you're making of yourself right now, it's begining to embarass even me.

I guess the Victorian system has a lot on its conscience....

Seriously, please inform yourself before making statements. You have no idea how much of a fool you're making of yourself right now, it's begining to embarass even me.

If you don't like it, take it up with Wikipedia and the Sahul continent.

Or just act really cold. It'd be like trying to chat with a Jehova's Witness or Scientologist.

...

I can't believe it.

No, really.

You just... compared living with YOURSELF... to becoming a Jehova's Witness or Scientologist.

READ THE POST! MY GOD! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU??

Eh? Architecture=s chemistry and biology?

Both European and American architecture were based on piling rocks on top of each other at the time. The Europeans had two engineering advantages that the Americans did not: the arch and the use of iron fasteners (nails, spikes, reinforcing dowels, etc). However, the Aztecs had invented indoor plumbing. Their sanitation infrastructure was on par with the Romans aqueduct system.

...

I can't believe it.

No, really.

You just... compared living with YOURSELF... to becoming a Jehova's Witness or Scientologist.

READ THE POST! MY GOD! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU??

What? I compared having a Muslim for a child and conversing with them to be like conversing with the Jehova's Witness or Scientologist.

"The Middle East" is not a culture. China is so old it could mean many of several Chinese cultures. Also, you missed Egypt.

Get a map and check out where Egypt lies...


It might come as a surprise to you to find it in the Middle East.

Lifted from Wikipedia:

Also lifted from Wikipedia:

Nevertheless, the sea still presented a major obstacle so it is theorised that these ancestral peoples reached Australia by island hopping.[6]

:rolleyes:

No, not quite. He married and raped a nine year old.

No, he didn't. He took her in his house since she had no one else to take care of her. And he never "raped" anyone. What have I told you about posting under the influence?

...

I can't believe it.

No, really.

You just... compared living with YOURSELF... to becoming a Jehova's Witness or Scientologist.

READ THE POST! MY GOD! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU??

And remember, kids: Scientologists and Jehova's Witnesses are not people. Tolerance only applies to mainstream, sensible herrenvolk religions.

Lifted from Wikipedia:

New Guinea is NOT mainland Asia. How do you think people got to New Guinea?

What? I compared having a Muslim for a child and conversing with them to be like conversing with the Jehova's Witness or Scientologist.

No. You compared having someone that talks to you for a child and conversing with them to be like conversing with the Jehova's Witness or Scientologist.

New Guinea is NOT mainland Asia. How do you think people got to New Guinea?

If you look at Oceania and the South Asian archipelago, there really isn't much separating it from mainland Asia. Maybe they used boats. Maybe they crossed land bridges. Point is, it didn't take millions of years for Australia to get from "connected with New Guinea" to "barely not connected with New Guinea".

Get a map and check out where Egypt lies...


It might come as a surprise to you to find it in the Middle East.

Actually, Ancient Egypt's often considered to be an African culture. It's a subject of debate.

And remember, kids: Scientologists and Jehova's Witnesses are not people. Tolerance only applies to mainstream, sensible herrenvolk religions.

Just to make a point here, I'm not the one saying anything against either of these religions.

I was born here, mate.

Yes but your culture isn't. I'm merely giving you a taste of your own medecine. You want the muslims to "take boat and row to asia" (you never mentionned anything about only those that immigrated by the way interesting that you would do such a distinction when it comes to you) because their culture has some things you find wrong.

So, I'm asking you to practice what you preach: take the boat and go back to europe because those that were there before you find things in your culture wrong.

So, what will it be?

I'm betting on hypocrisy for the win.

So, I'm asking you to practice what you preach: take the boat and go back to europe because those that were there before you find things in your culture wrong.

Mate, I'm a product of the Australian lifestyle. It may come as a slight shock to you, but we're not all cork-on-a-string hats wearing, Foster's beer drinking, "this is a knife" playing outbackmen. We're no-nonsense. We don't put up with people telling us what to do and when to do it. You'd be surprised to find that a lot of Australians would agree with me.

What...Why is TPF surprised? Surely he must be able to believe something that reaffirms all of his beliefs with ease...

Go back far enough and we're all amoeba crawling out of the ocean. What's your point?

You underestimate ancient cultures. Almost everyone stopped the chest beating and grunting when we leaped over from Cro-Magnon to Sapiens Sapiens.

Bawhahah fuckin' great!

'No the ancient civilsation, that I feel I may have original sprung from, were far more civilised than the anciant civilisation that you might have come from were, quite clearly we had bronze weapons while your lot were still using stone'

Well fuck me it's nice to see that idiotic bigoty also has roots that go back milenia huh!

No. You compared having someone that talks to you for a child and conversing with them to be like conversing with the Jehova's Witness or Scientologist.

What the hell are you talking about?

I said "If I had a child (read: son, daughter) and they were Muslim, I couldn't speak to them. It's like speaking to a cultist."

No, he didn't. He took her in his house since she had no one else to take care of her. And he never "raped" anyone. What have I told you about posting under the influence?

Yeah, right. Aisha herself stated that she married at six or seven and consummated the marriage at nine.

Mate, I'm a product of the Australian lifestyle. It may come as a slight shock to you, but we're not all cork-on-a-string hats wearing, Foster's beer drinking, "this is a knife" playing outbackmen. We're no-nonsense. We don't put up with people telling us what to do and when to do it. You'd be surprised to find that a lot of Australians would agree with me.

So you're saying we shouldn't stereotype you but we should stereotype immigrants and muslims?

So you're saying we shouldn't stereotype you but we should stereotype immigrants and muslims?

I'm telling you to change the stereotype. Go look up the Cronulla riots, and keep in mind that that's when we're really riled up.

I'm telling you to change the stereotype. Go look up the Cronulla riots, and keep in mind that when we're really riled up.

So you want Australians to be stereotyped as angry, raving, bigoted idiots?

Much better.

Yeah, we're mostly civilised people, but I'll assume you're not listening to TPF, so no need for the speech on behalf of Australians then.

Yeah, right. Aisha herself stated that she married at six or seven and consummated the marriage at nine.

So... Even assuming it ever happened (never mind the "assuming she was actually 9" part)... "consummating marriage" = "rape" now. Okay.

My culture? Yeah, right. I advocate gang rape because you didn't wear a tent! Wheeeee!


Same sport. Same ballpark.

Your 'culture' isn't about where you are born, or the colour of your skin. You are choosing to prolong a culture of xenophobia, just like the radical fringes of both Islam and Christianity.


Just about every other single white person I've spoken to, and most East Asians, agree that Muslims are a fucking problem.

I'm 'white'. I'm even 'European'. I think people who perpetuate the hatred of others are the problem.... and so do people I've talked to from just about everywhere in the world, and of just about every colour of skin.

Most Muslims are no problem. Some are... but it's not because they are muslims - they would be problems anyway, Islam just gives the 'flavour' to their particular rage.

So you want Australians to be stereotyped as angry, raving, bigoted idiots?

Much better.

Yeah, we're mostly civilised people, but I'll assume you're not listening to TPF, so no need for the speech on behalf of Australians then.

I want us to be stereotyped as people who won't be pushed around by malevolent cultures.

What the hell are you talking about?

I said "If I had a child (read: son, daughter) and they were Muslim, I couldn't speak to them. It's like speaking to a cultist."

Bwhahahahahah! and you don't see that as a problem with you?

If you look at Oceania and the South Asian archipelago, there really isn't much separating it from mainland Asia. Maybe they used boats. Maybe they crossed land bridges. Point is, it didn't take millions of years for Australia to get from "connected with New Guinea" to "barely not connected with New Guinea".

Exactly. They used boats. Aboriginals were, therefore, seafarers. Not only does this refute your previous post, but it also shows that the Aborigines were seafarers 40,000 years ago.

I didn't say disown. Just never speak to them again. Any son or daughter of mine who would return to the Dark Ages, they are dead to me.

The curious thing is - of course, that during the Dark Ages, Muslim cutlrue was more advanced than it's 'western, Christian' counterpart.

Perhaps you are not aware that most of our (European) medical, biological and anatomical science was imported from Islamic cultures?

What the hell are you talking about?

I said "If I had a child (read: son, daughter) and they were Muslim, I couldn't speak to them. It's like speaking to a cultist."

...

Read the post I wrote back there and that you were trying to answer to, genius.

Exactly. They used boats. Aboriginals were, therefore, seafarers. Not only does this refute your previous post, but it also shows that the Aborigines were seafarers 40,000 years ago.

And yet, they found the need to completely discard that technology. Great move, aborigines.

So... Even assuming it ever happened (never mind the "assuming she was actually 9" part)... "consummating marriage" = "rape" now. Okay.

if underage? yes

The curious thing is - of course, that during the Dark Ages, Muslim cutlrue was more advanced than it's 'western, Christian' counterpart.

Perhaps you are not aware that most of our (European) medical, biological and anatomical science was imported from Islamic cultures?

We were a little busy. Mass death from the plague is a full time occupation.

What, the aborigines? I'd hardly call that a culture. Dancing around in their underwear throwing bent sticks at animals that could kick their brains out. The Native Americans were much better natives than the aborigines.

Besides, that was invasion, not immigration.

ok I just skimmed a little through some of the forum

all I have to say is "new troll here"

So... Even assuming it ever happened (never mind the "assuming she was actually 9" part)... "consummating marriage" = "rape" now. Okay.

It is if it's with a FUCKING NINE YEAR OLD.

ok I just skimmed a little through some of the forum

new troll here

You are new, aren't you?

And yet you want people living in australia to do what you tell them to do. Funny how what is good for the goose is not good for the gander.

What makes you think the muslim population will listen to you? If they assimilated like you want, they'll be no-nonsence people telling you to fuck off. If, on the other hand, they haven't assimilated, well then "I don't speak english, matey."

If they assimilated, they'd drop their medieval customs and join the modern world. If you go to Sunshine or Footscray, you'll see that it's not happening.

Ughh. FOOTSCRAY. What a fucking bastion of modernity and enlightenment that is. If I had more power and less regard for human life, I'd have the place firebombed.

Mate, I'm a product of the Australian lifestyle. It may come as a slight shock to you, but we're not all cork-on-a-string hats wearing, Foster's beer drinking, "this is a knife" playing outbackmen. We're no-nonsense. We don't put up with people telling us what to do and when to do it. You'd be surprised to find that a lot of Australians would agree with me.

And yet you want people living in australia to do what you tell them to do. Funny how what is good for the goose is not good for the gander.

What makes you think the muslim population will listen to you? If they assimilated like you want, they'll be no-nonsence people telling you to fuck off. If, on the other hand, they haven't assimilated, well then "I don't speak english, matey."

We were a little busy. Mass death from the plague is a full time occupation.

You're a few hundred years off, old boy.

if underage? yes

You're applying current standards to a time in which life expectancy was about 40. For one to be a pedophile in the Middle Ages it'd have to be 4 and down. :p Even that assumes that the Sunna's are correct and that the accounts are real, which TPF, that knows jack about Islam, is assuming for his own convenience only.

And yet, they found the need to completely discard that technology. Great move, aborigines.

Well, now we get to how we define Aboriginal. Do we consider the Torres Strait Islanders aboriginal? Many Australian Aborigines do, and they are a seafaring culture.

We were a little busy. Mass death from the plague is a full time occupation.

I wonder if you think 'the Dark Ages' was a few minutes between 'the Bright Ages' and 'the Next Bright Ages', or something?

You might want to review your history, anyway - the dominating factor in holding back medical sciences in Europe was Christianity, which disallowed things like autopsy. As a consequence, Dark Ages Europe based it's medical practices on ideas like the belief that the purpose of the brain was to cool the blood.

You're applying current standards to a time in which life expectancy was about 40. For one to be a pedophile in the Middle Ages it'd have to be 4 and down. :p Even that assumes that the Sunna's are correct and that the accounts are real, which TPF, that knows jack about Islam, is assuming for his own convenience only.

So you're advocating having sex with four year olds?

It is if it's with a FUCKING NINE YEAR OLD.

When I get a time machine, I promise the first thing I do will be going back to 300 AD and informing the Prophet that what he's doing (and that assumes he did) will be a crime in 1700 years.

And yet, they found the need to completely discard that technology. Great move, aborigines.

Because maritime technology is so pivotal in the Outback....

I'd recommend you read this little book before making even more of a fool of yourself :

Guns, germs and steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel)

I am reading that book!

When I get a time machine, I promise the first thing I do will be going back to 300 AD and informing the Prophet that what he's doing (and that assumes he did) will be a crime in 1700 years.

I think even back THEN, it was fucking WRONG. Most people at least waited until, like, twelve, which was still wrong, but not as fucking wrong as NINE.

So you're advocating having sex with four year olds?

That's... the sort of conclusion people like you would reach from my post.

Normal people wouldn't reach it, though, so, I won't bother answering you.

Now, everyone else, here, be the judges, is he flamebaiting me?

Because maritime technology is so pivotal in the Outback....

Maybe they'd be a little more advanced today if they'd stuck to the coastlines and used seafaring to FISH.

I think even back THEN, it was fucking WRONG. Most people at least waited until, like, twelve, which was still wrong, but not as fucking wrong as NINE.

1- We don't know that it happened.

2- Back your claims up. You can't prove that people back then would have waited.

No, no we're not. Every time a sheik comes out a tell us that women deserve to be raped because of what they wear, that just makes us angrier and more numerous.

That was just the Mufti you know...

Metal working is just an example of one of the many technologies that thousands of civilisations have had trouble grasping.

Actually bronze and iron metal working was first used in Indian areas and middle eastern areas AFAIK. They were either passed directly (someone taught the skills in other locations) or they made other peoples realise that they could do it and thus tried to develop techniques.

Actually, they came across before Australia separated from Asia.

Australia seperated millions of years ago...

Actually they island hopped and used small craft for their voyages. At the time they migrated to the Australian continent they were the best boat constructors

Now if you were talking about the Tasmanian Aboriginals I would agree they walked (as a land bridge existed then).

The aborigines!

They made boats...

And what three would that be?

Mesoamerica (mayan), Mesopotamia (sumer), China (not sure which group/dynasty)

"The Middle East" is not a culture. China is so old it could mean many of several Chinese cultures. Also, you missed Egypt.

Egypt is commonly put in the 'middle east'. The Middle East was a religious/sociopolitical term made by the Europeans

My culture? Yeah, right. I advocate gang rape because you didn't wear a tent! Wheeeee!

Just about every other single white person I've spoken to, and most East Asians, agree that Muslims are a fucking problem.

I'd say the radicalism is the problem.

When you say east asians are you including the southern ones?

Animal domestication. Sea faring. THE WHEEL. WRITING. Fairly basic shit here, people!

Wheel and animal domesticates for the most part were made in a single region then copied to other regions or were used as inspirations to make their own.

I guess the Victorian system has a lot on its conscience....

The Vic system usually produces people better than TPF.
Mate, I'm a product of the Australian lifestyle. It may come as a slight shock to you, but we're not all cork-on-a-string hats wearing, Foster's beer drinking, "this is a knife" playing outbackmen. We're no-nonsense. We don't put up with people telling us what to do and when to do it. You'd be surprised to find that a lot of Australians would agree with me.

If by a lot you mean One Nation fanatics then you may be right...

Maybe they'd be a little more advanced today if they'd stuck to the coastlines and used seafaring to FISH.

Yeah! Those Aborigines would have developed all kinds of technology if they'd just had a diet of FISH!

... wait, what? :confused:

You "don't effing believe" this? Where have you been?

Men who abuse and murder women are quite likely to get away with it in our world today. Indeed, a recent court ruling in the US sentenced a man to 16 years for hitting a woman so hard it lead to her death...and gave him 20 years for the death of the fetus she was carrying (she was 2 months into her pregnancy). Women are officially worth 80% as much as pre-viable fetuses in the US.

Why should anybody be remotely surprised when women's lives are thrown away like trash? That's not the exception; that's the rule.

No, no it's not. You take away a LIFE, and TEN YEARS IS ENOUGH?Yes, and no amount of jail time or killing will bring the lost life back.

All we can do is make sure we don't lower ourselves to the level of the criminal: Collective should know and especially act better than the disturbed individual.

We were a little busy. Mass death from the plague is a full time occupation.

Bwahahahahaha! You know I have never seen an intelegent bigot!

Yes, and no amount of jail time or killing will bring the lost life back.

All we can do is make sure we don't lower ourselves to the level of the criminal: Collective should know and especially act better than the disturbed individual.

So, let's just let him go! Abolish prisons! That's the liberal way!

Maybe they'd be a little more advanced today if they'd stuck to the coastlines and used seafaring to FISH.

They did. We now call them Torres Straits Islanders, apparently.

Bwahahahahaha! You know I have never seen an intelegent bigot!

Hmm... Hitler?

Maybe they'd be a little more advanced today if they'd stuck to the coastlines and used seafaring to FISH.

Depends on what you mean by 'advanced'.

You seem to have a vision of the world where people are kind of dropped down in certain places for arbitrary reasons. If Australian Aboriginals arrived from elsewhere... and they ended up inland - it is not illogical to assume there is a reason. Very few people are so capricious they will willingly turn their back on an obvious and plentiful food source for NO reason.

It could be as simple as the vicissitudes of the reefs making fishing either unprofitable or impossible. It could be an issue of disease in some types of seafood (the Bible actually could be corroborating evidence for this assumption). It's fairly certain that the first human settlers in Australia had a pretty good reason for choosing a relatively barren interior.

When you say east asians are you including the southern ones?

Chinese, Viet, Filo.

Yeah! Those Aborigines would have developed all kinds of technology if they'd just had a diet of FISH!

... wait, what? :confused:

Fishing would have at least been something resembling settled agriculture.

That's... the sort of conclusion people like you would reach from my post.

Normal people wouldn't reach it, though, so, I won't bother answering you.

Now, everyone else, here, be the judges, is he flamebaiting me?

Nope his brain has regresed to a state where common anger and hatred overule his faculties of thought.

Bwhahahah!

Fishing would have at least been something resembling settled agriculture.

So you're saying that 'Aborigines would be more advanced if they had taken up agriculture'?

Well, yeah. You may as well say 'Humanity would be more advanced if we discovered nuclear fusion.'

Duh?

Maybe they'd be a little more advanced today if they'd stuck to the coastlines and used seafaring to FISH.

Now this is just shit dressed up as shit. Anybody, and I mean anybody can go do a little light reading and find that all of the problems that the modern day aboriginals are facing can be put squarly on the shoulders of the succeseive white, foriogn goverments, and peoples.

Anybody that says otherwise is talking shit, and can only do so because of their poor or lack of education.

Depends on what you mean by 'advanced'.

You seem to have a vision of the world where people are kind of dropped down in certain places for arbitrary reasons. If Australian Aboriginals arrived from elsewhere... and they ended up inland - it is not illogical to assume there is a reason. Very few people are so capricious they will willingly turn their back on an obvious and plentiful food source for NO reason.

It could be as simple as the vicissitudes of the reefs making fishing either unprofitable or impossible. It could be an issue of disease in some types of seafood (the Bible actually could be corroborating evidence for this assumption). It's fairly certain that the first human settlers in Australia had a pretty good reason for choosing a relatively barren interior.

Some theorise that it has to do with the loss of megafauna shortly after human arrival in Australia.

So when they first arrive, there's mollusks and other shell fish two feet wide. Lots of food = population explosion. This results in overtaxing the resources. The megafauna dies out and the new ecology can't support the large population. Some would have gone out to the ocean to poulate all those Pacific islands. Some would have gone inland, to start a different dreaming.

So you're saying that 'Aborigines would be more advanced if they had taken up agriculture'?

Well, yeah. You may as well say 'Humanity would be more advanced if we discovered nuclear fusion.'

Duh?

Duh. But why the hell DIDN'T they? We're assuming they didn't get a case of collective amnesia and forget how to fish.

Duh. But why the hell DIDN'T they? We're assuming they didn't get a case of collective amnesia and forget how to fish.

Yes, just converse with me and ignore all the actual intelligent posts which refute your point. :rolleyes::p

See above.

Duh. But why the hell DIDN'T they? We're assuming they didn't get a case of collective amnesia and forget how to fish.

I've seen three distinct possibilities raised in the last couple of pages.

Reading not your strong suit?

Hmm... Hitler?

*shrug* never saw him! Don't know if he was that intelegent either.

Now this is just shit dressed up as shit. Anybody, and I mean anybody can go do a little light reading and find that all of the problems that the modern day aboriginals are facing can be put squarly on the shoulders of the succeseive white, foriogn goverments, and peoples.

Anybody that says otherwise is talking shit, and can only do so because of their poor or lack of education.

Hahaha. NO.

The white govt. has done wrong in the past. WE KNOW. BUT in the last couple of decades, we've given them every chance to succeed. We give them a house, they tear it up for firewood. We give them cars, they sniff petrol.

Every single problem facing the aborigines today is based on the fact that they expect to keep living in their tribal lifestyles and achieve Western outcomes.

How do you think they got to Australia? Hm? Carried there by migrating storks?
The fact that they gave it up at some point doesn't mean they never had it.



China, the Middle East and Middle America (Maya, more specifically)

Erm...India? I'd have thought Sanskrit was a fairly old language. I'm not a linguist, though, so I don't know for sure.

I've seen three distinct possibilities raised in the last couple of pages.

Reading not your strong suit?

You have any idea how fast this topic is moving? It's like a post a second. I can't read it ALL.

You have any idea how fast this topic is moving? It's like a post a second. I can't read it ALL.

Funny. I'm in the same thread and I can read all posts with ease.

Funny. I'm in the same thread and I can read all posts with ease.

All the posts are addressing ME. I've got to reply to them.

*shrug* never saw him! Don't know if he was that intelegent either.

He managed to take control of a nation from a somewhat poor background, build it into a power and take on the whole world. Generally an idiot, I suppose, but he must have had his moments.

Ah well, never mind.

Hahaha. NO.

The white govt. has done wrong in the past. WE KNOW. BUT in the last couple of decades, we've given them every chance to succeed. We give them a house, they tear it up for firewood. We give them cars, they sniff petrol.

Every single problem facing the aborigines today is based on the fact that they expect to keep living in their tribal lifestyles and achieve Western outcomes.

To the rescue! (http://www.megat.co.uk/wrong/wrong.php?r=bcdeijkrtuyz14&n=Potato+Factory&c=%23FF0000&t=race%2Fimmigration)

Hahaha. NO.

The white govt. has done wrong in the past. WE KNOW. BUT in the last couple of decades, we've given them every chance to succeed. We give them a house, they tear it up for firewood. We give them cars, they sniff petrol.

Every single problem facing the aborigines today is based on the fact that they expect to keep living in their tribal lifestyles and achieve Western outcomes.


I would think it had more to do with them wanting to figure out there own lives, and the rest of the world wanting them to have Western outcomes.

Hahaha. NO.

The white govt. has done wrong in the past. WE KNOW. BUT in the last couple of decades, we've given them every chance to succeed. We give them a house, they tear it up for firewood. We give them cars, they sniff petrol.

Every single problem facing the aborigines today is based on the fact that they expect to keep living in their tribal lifestyles and achieve Western outcomes.


Bwhaahah look at your history boy! underprivaliged peoples, people who are constantly put down or made to feel second, third class citercens will act like it, and do so not for just a few years but generations.

Every single problem facing the aborigines today is based on the fact of the amount and type of shit crappers like you put on them.

All the posts are addressing ME. I've got to reply to them.

Simply reply in one post to them all. You don't even have to address the same case twice. Jeez. Anything else you want me to teach?

Here's what I don't get: If honor killings are such a cultural and defendable norm, why stuff her body in a suitcase and bury her in a garden?

I'll tell you why: Because they're cultist freaks. They are everybit as freakish as Warren Jeffs' mormons or Fred Phelps' christians or dorks who killed themselves so they could catch a ride on that mothership hiding behind a comet.

Their actions have nothing to do with their purported faiths and everything to do with twisted agendas.

Why are there never pie-flinging cults? :(

Couldn't have put it better myself.

TPF how about responding to ypur original OP? You asserted that you were surprised a British judge convicted a muslim because they usually don't. You have been asked to prove this point and spectcularly failed to do so. Have you come up with any proof yet?

Duh. But why the hell DIDN'T they? We're assuming they didn't get a case of collective amnesia and forget how to fish.

Fishing would only be considered a good settled people investment if the fish were easy to grow and predictable in where they were (best result being farmable). Considering that the aboriginal population was much larger than their fishing techniques could be used to extract fish it isn't surprising that groups went to the interior, leaving island or coastal groups behind.

Then there is the problem that fishing only marine animals (unlike hunting for birds or creatures that regularly swim onto the beach) without having an agricultural backup usually means that the people performing that act have to be nomadic anyway, in order to follow the migrations of fish...

Chinese, Viet, Filo.

They don't have their own share of extremists?

Bwhaahah look at your history boy! underprivaliged peoples, people who are constantly put down or made to feel second, third class citercens will act like it, and do so not for just a few years but generations.

Every single problem facing the aborigines today is based on the fact of the amount and type of shit crappers like you put on them.

We've left the aborigines alone to do their thing for 20 years, and they still riot and blame us for their wife-beatings and low life expectancy? What do you want for us? To go in there and FORCE them to have better lives?

History is over. Aborigines have the same rights as everyone else, and right now, they're using those rights to sniff gasoline.

They don't have their own share of extremists?

I dunno, maybe they do. We're just normal people who see parts of our country slowing turning into South Africa.

History is over. Aborigines have the same rights as everyone else, and right now, they're using those rights to sniff gasoline.

And you're using them to post absurdities on Internet Forums. Go you.