NationStates Jolt Archive

Could you perhaps provide quotes for that? All I have access to is the abstract, and several quotes from the report in a book. As far as I can tell, they didn't assume anything and just went with the data they could get.

Sorry, I didn't notice this until today. Hopefully, you'll see it.

From their methods section:

We anticipated that approximately 50% of the patients in group 2 (uncertain, no intercessory prayer) would have a complication within 30 days of CABG.2 On the basis of investigator consensus, we hypothesized that if 40% of patients in group 1 (uncertain, with intercessory prayer) and 30% of patients in group 3 (certain, with intercessory prayer) had any complication within 30 days of CABG, these reductions would be clinically important.

They then go on to say that they use these assumptions to form their sample size and, from what I can tell of their main statistical method (O’Brien Fleming boundaries), these assumptions formed the boundaries for their significance test as well.

The comment I made about them assuming that those they had missing data on had complications was actually in their results section - in their final analysis.

These proportions include
25 patients who had missing data—21 did not have CABG (group 1, 11; group 2, 10) and 4 had no complication before being lost to follow-up before day 30 (group 1, 2; group 2, 2); all 25 assumed a priori to have had a complication.

The numbers they report in the abstract include this assumption.

Note: If you want the full-text and don't mind giving your email out. Send me a TG with your email and I'll send you the full-text.

Praying is just a moment of peace when people kneel down and honor other gods or goddesses, which is a waste of time and a annoying experience conducted with nothing to achieve.

Praying is just a moment of peace when people kneel down and honor other gods or goddesses, which is a waste of time and a annoying experience conducted with nothing to achieve.what do you mean by other gods or goddesses,?

what do you mean by other gods or goddesses,?

He means other than Jocabia.

You didn't meet Christians, you met hippies. You can, however, usually pick out fervent Christians fairly quickly, though - they're the ones throwing eggs at you and punching your boyfriend as you're strolling down the street in Moscow, or standing by your mate's funeral carrying signs saying their deity hates you and telling you you're a filthy human being and are going straight to hell. You ain't seen fervent, until you've seen that.

Ah, yes. The old 'one member of a group is an asshat, therefore all members of that group are asshats,' argument. Organized religion gives people who were already asshats an excuse for their asshattery. Thus, my preference for disorganized religion.

And, yes, I pray. I've been praying rather a lot lately, thanks to having a grandma in the hospital, no job, mounting rent debt and the car still needing a fuel pump transplant. I don't ask for anything to be handed to me I ask that I opportunities be presented to me so I can help myself, and for the intelligence to recognize said opportunities.

I call it meditation. Talking to an invisible person seems a little childish.

I figure that my gods have so few worshipers, they're overjoyed to help us out.

I figure that my gods have so few worshipers, they're overjoyed to help us out.

Sounds logical really....:D

Yes, I pray everyday. Dispite what you may think, God has answered my prayers many times.

Ah, yes. The old 'one member of a group is an asshat, therefore all members of that group are asshats,' argument. Organized religion gives people who were already asshats an excuse for their asshattery. Thus, my preference for disorganized religion.

And, yes, I pray. I've been praying rather a lot lately, thanks to having a grandma in the hospital, no job, mounting rent debt and the car still needing a fuel pump transplant. I don't ask for anything to be handed to me I ask that I opportunities be presented to me so I can help myself, and for the intelligence to recognize said opportunities.

Speaking of lots of problems... how's Redwulf? He's never on anymore.

Speaking of lots of problems... how's Redwulf? He's never on anymore.

We're doing okay - had to cut off the cable and internet due to being po' (can't afford the last two letters...). We're going to Border War next weekend - we figure the gods owe us a weekend of drunken debauchery after the past six months.

And what's this about lots of problems? Eh? Eh?

How convenient.

It is true though, if you don't believe that it is going to work, than you are not sincerely praying, ok, wise guy.

yes i pray and yes i think that it is helpful and that it "works"

It is true though, if you don't believe that it is going to work, than you are not sincerely praying, ok, wise guy.

:rolleyes:

Prayer hasn't done jack shit for me recently, which is why I don't think I'll be doing it for a while.

Why would I pray to something that I don't think exists?

No, I don't pray. I don't believe in any higher powers.

Prayer is useless and achieves nothing.

For you, maybe.

Prayer is useless and achieves nothing.
I totally disagree, but that what debate is all about?

How would an atheist know anything about the benefits of prayer?

Yes, I do. And yes, it does help. Almost everything in life is totally out of your control. One person, in most cases, can have only a very negligible, if any, impact on the outcome of events. I pray because turning my cares over to God makes me feel better. If that doesn't work for you, fine. It brings me a measure of peace. Without it, I'd feel frustrated, disillusioned and impotent, and very, very angry much of the time.

im·po·tent
1. not potent; lacking power or ability.
2. utterly unable (to do something).
3. without force or effectiveness.
4. lacking bodily strength or physically helpless.
5. (of a male) unable to attain or sustain a penile erection.
6. (esp. of a male) sterile.
7. Obsolete. without restraint.

Thought I'd throw that in there. When swimming in the shark tank that is this forum it is usually best to at least apply a band-aid to that paper cut on your finger before you go in the water.

I totally disagree, but that what debate is all about?

How would an atheist know anything about the benefits of prayer?

Well, these days, very few children get born into atheist families. So chances are she, just like myself, got "taught" to pray from more or less the moment she could talk.
I believed I was Christian for the first to decades of my life... it was only when I left home and escaped the cultural influence that Christianity had on my life that I got to re-examine it. I had a long hard look at my assumed religion, I read the bible (and was shocked and outraged by what I found in there), I observed the behaviour of self-confessed Christians, and decided that Christianity simply contradicts my moral understanding and everything I actually believe in.
So I left that club.

And even before that, I didn't believe that prayers "worked". They were just something you apparently had to do as Christian.

Do you pray?

Not as such, no.

Do you feel that praying actually helps?

Not me.

I think my sig sums up my opinion on the matter, but I'd like to hear people's justifications for prayer.

I have sigs turned off, so I haven't a clue as to your opinion. Does it matter at all?

I'd feel frustrated, disillusioned and impotent, and very, very angry much of the time.



...and then you'd get into arguments with Straughn!
:D

Hey Myo, long time no see. What, real life?

It is true though, if you don't believe that it is going to work, than you are not sincerely praying, ok, wise guy.

Again, with the difference between an emotional foundation and a mechanical (pragmatic) one.

I don't ask for anything to be handed to me I ask that I opportunities be presented to me so I can help myself, and for the intelligence to recognize said opportunities.

Right on. More power to you.
*bows*

Why would I pray to something that I don't think exists?

I pray a lot to something I don't believe exists and it helps me

How would an atheist know anything about the benefits of prayer?

I'm an atheist. I went to Christian schools for 7 years of my education and considered myself a Christian. Are you suggesting that I forgot everything the moment I deconverted?

deconverted?

Is that a word?

Is that a word?

If it's not, it should be. It's cool.

And even before that, I didn't believe that prayers "worked". They were just something you apparently had to do as Christian.
Prayers, only work for those who believe that they do indeed work? One needs to have faith before they can truly experience the awesome power of prayer.

Prayers, only work for those who believe that they do indeed work? One needs to have faith before they can truly experience the awesome power of prayer.

Well, that's one way of coping. Me, I prefer going into situations with low expectations - that way, I can be pleasantly surprised when things don't actually fuck up.

Prayers, only work for those who believe that they do indeed work? One needs to have faith before they can truly experience the awesome power of prayer.

So prayer is mearly a placibo ... I agree
The placibo effect is pretty amazing, what a humans mind can effect when it thinks it can is impressive

Right on. More power to you.
*bows*

erm... Thanks?

So prayer is mearly a placibo ... I agree
The placibo effect is pretty amazing, what a humans mind can effect when it thinks it can is impressive

The downside of placebos is of course that they only work for the one taking the placebo.
As shown by that prayer study ;)

A prayer is the most basic analytical human mind improvement in our evolution.
Prayer is so basic an implication to reject responsibility out of your mind.
Prayer for the one who need to dream to evacuate all the shit of every single days. Prayer to satisfy the ego of all passivity and treacherous laziness to blind the mind on anything not comfortable enough.

Pray bros, assume your humanity and never assume you're smarter than your stupid neighbor.

Daily auto critic or self confession are a different matter

A prayer is the most basic analytical human mind improvement in our evolution.
Prayer is so basic an implication to reject responsibility out of your mind.
Prayer for the one who need to dream to evacuate all the shit of every single days. Prayer to satisfy the ego of all passivity and treacherous laziness to blind the mind on anything not comfortable enough.

Pray bros, assume your humanity and never assume you're smarter than your stupid neighbor.

Daily auto critic or self confession are a different matterPerhaps this should've been a few pages earlier?

erm... Thanks?

Fight the good fight.

I'm usually quite mild-mannered and quiet. But two things: 1) this is the internet and 2) I get frustrated over the fact that you chose to be so ignorant. You obviously aren't too poorly-educated, so there must be a reason. And I want to know why.

There are many well-educated persons who are Christians. And I'm willing to concede the fact that there is likely a greater number of well-educated persons who are not Christians (or believers of any religion, for that matter). But I don't think that 'A' is necessarily true b/c 5,000,000 well-educated persons believe it is true but only 500 well-educated persons believe 'B' is true. If that were so, it must be true that in the 14th Century the earth was flat and that it used to be true that the founder of Rome was raised by wolves but that it is not true any longer.

Science is constantly changing, with years of science built upon the layers that came before it and with ever-evolving technology. Maybe one day there will be some fancy scientific device that can 'measure' God. Probably not. But just b/c science hasn't found something yet, doesn't mean that thing does not exist. I suppose you can play the odds and say God doesn't exist b/c we've got thousands of years of technology and yet no scientific 'proof'.

Some well-educated Christians were raised in a devout Christian family and it stuck. But there are many others who were living life in a "non-Christian" way until *BAM*, something happens that makes them "real" Christians. You assume that there must have been some trauma in their life or some psychological emptiness (bad relationship with a parent is the 'scientific' answer) that needed to be filled, and that the person's mind locked on to a fairy-tale that just happened to fix that little problem from the past.

But for whatever reason, some very well-educated persons believe that what happened on that day was that Jesus revealed himself to said person in such a way that caused a significant change in his/her life. Even if that person was a well-adjusted 'normal' member of society before that moment, you would still look for the 'reason' that brought that person to a belief in God. And even if you had a battery of psychologists examine that person and they found no trauma or deeply held maternal resentment, you would not believe that person's insistence that he was transformed by Jesus Christ.

I submit to you that many well-educated persons DO have an emptiness in their lives. Despite acquring years of wisdom about the ways of the world, they realize that their heart longs for answers that science just can't give. Christians are fighting a losing battle if they try to apply biblical answers to scientific questions in order to prove the existence of God. Humans simply aren't wise enough to understand it all, without the aid of crutches. But to speak to a Christian who was honestly transformed by the love of Jesus Christ. What happens to those people's lives and hearts defy science, and is the best evidence of God's existence.

(Feel free to substitue the word 'me' for 'well-educated' persons where appropriate in the text of my response. Believe it or not, I am still Christian 'despite' having graduated a juris doctor w/ honors from a secular university.)